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Oral Answers to Questions
(14 years ago)
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Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)
1. What plans he has for the future of adult and community learning; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning (Mr John Hayes)
Adult and community learning make a vital contribution to building a big society founded on social mobility, social justice and social cohesion. We will strive to reinvigorate adult and community learning to make it part of the wider learning continuum and to enable providers to respond to the learning needs of their communities.
Eric Ollerenshaw
I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Has he managed to see research from the National Institute of Adult Continuing Education that demonstrates that 28% of adult learners show an increased involvement in social, community and volunteering activity as a direct result of their learning? Does he agree that that demonstrates the vital role that adult education will have to play in contributing to the big society?
Mr Hayes
Yes, indeed. As it happens, I have with me the response to the study that he describes. The transformative power of adult learning is well understood by this Government. We know that adult learning changes lives by changing life chances. It gives some of the most disadvantaged people in our community their chance to gain learning. It is frequently progressive to further learning and takes them to the world of work. This Government unequivocally back adult learning.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
In our multicultural big society, which is being created, what specific help will there be for those who do not have English as a first language to help them acquire these skills?
Mr Hayes
It is absolutely right—in the spirit in which I have answered the earlier question—that we should consider the particular needs of communities in the way that the right hon. Gentleman makes clear. Language is critical—it is critical in building the social cohesion that I described. The chances for people in settled communities without a grasp of English to acquire that grasp are essential if they are going to learn and work.
Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)
Evidence from the excellent West Suffolk college in my constituency suggests that those who participate in adult learning increase their activity in the third sector. Given the necessary constraint on public spending, would the Minister perhaps give us a clue as to whether he is going to encourage more co-payment of fees?
Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab)
2. What assessment he has made of the likely effects on development of small businesses of reductions in spending on adult education.
The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning (Mr John Hayes)
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the results of the spending review will not be announced until next week. However, a key consideration has been how we best ensure the skills of our nation are improved. I can also assure him that we have modelled the impact of our proposals on businesses and individuals. Skills are crucial to delivering growth and will play a key role in our agenda.
Mr Virendra Sharma
I thank the Minister for that answer. Does he agree that adult education provides essential work skills for some of my most vulnerable constituents and that 40% reductions in spending on adult education will hit those constituents, and consequently small businesses, hardest—when they are both vital in providing economic growth to tackle the deficit?
Mr Hayes
The hon. Gentleman is right that small businesses form the backbone of our economy, and it is our job to ensure that they get the support they need. An advanced economy needs advanced skills, and backing business and providing growth means investing in skills. As I have said, he would not expect me to prejudge the CSR, but he can be assured that the team on the Front Bench fully appreciates the power and value of skills.
Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)
Will the Minister tell me whether his Department has made any progress on the skills needed for small businesses such as those in the curry industry and whether there has been any progress on trying to develop additional learning skills for that industry?
Mr Hayes
As my hon. Friend knows, because we have discussed the matter—by the way, I pay tribute to her work in that field—just this week I met my counterpart from Bangladesh to discuss the matter. [Interruption.] Sadly, we were not sharing a samosa at the time. I have asked my hon. Friend to make representations to the Department to talk about her work with that industry to deliver the skills that that industry needs.
Mr Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (LD)
3. What plans he has for the future level of the cap on tuition fees which may be levied by universities; and if he will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)
We welcome Lord Browne’s independent report on higher education, which makes recommendations about the structure and level of graduate contributions. We are looking at his proposals carefully and considering a contribution level of £7,000.
Mr Kennedy
My right hon. Friend knows the reasons, which are well documented, why I cannot support the thrust and direction of Government policy on this one. Given the inevitable, and indeed immediate, ramifications of any policy change for the tertiary sector in England on Russell group universities in Scotland, is he willing between now and next May to enter into open-minded discussions with all the political parties in Scotland to see whether a modus vivendi can none the less be achieved to maintain some of the principles for which we have argued long and hard where Scottish tertiary sector education is concerned?
Vince Cable
That is a constructive suggestion. I am happy to do exactly what my right hon. Friend has said. To reinforce the point, yesterday the principal—the vice-chancellor equivalent—of Glasgow university, where I know my right hon. Friend is a rector and with which I have an association, said in relation to the growing funding crisis in Scottish universities:
“I believe we need to adopt a graduate contribution model that is properly designed, progressive and one which requires those who earn more during their lifetime to pay back more to society in order to fund higher education.”
That is exactly what we are doing.
Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab)
On Tuesday, the Social Market Foundation published an analysis of how the Business Secretary’s £7,000 a year minimum fee will hit different graduates. It shows that the hardest hit will be graduates who earn £27,000 a year, while students who get help from the bank of mum and dad to pay off early will get a £12,000 discount on the cost of their degree. Is that fair?
Vince Cable
It would not be fair, if that were the outcome. That particular analysis does not properly consider the true present value of the payments that people will have to make. There has been some excellent research on the operation of different interest rates in order to produce a genuinely fair and progressive outcome, which Government Members want and which I hope the right hon. Gentleman still wants.
Mr Denham
When my building society starts asking me to pay my mortgage in net present value, I will do so. Until then, I will talk pounds and pence like everybody else.
Does the Business Secretary recognise that if he allows universities such as Oxford and Cambridge to charge £10,000 or £12,000 a year, the gap between the few and the many will get wider? The Higher Education Minister has said that it is not possible to stop people paying their fees up front. Will that not create the unfair situation in which those born into privilege, such as the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer to pick two at random, can get a huge discount for paying up front, while the bright child from a poor background who makes it to Oxford or Cambridge will pay even more? How is that fair?
Vince Cable
We are anxious to ensure a fairer solution than the existing graduate contribution system that we inherited. The right hon. Gentleman has used the analogy of mortgage payments, which is interesting. No building society or bank that I am aware of would exempt people from any payments until they were earning £21,000 a year, which is the progressive element that we are trying to introduce. He has rightly referred to the difficulties that would arise if certain Russell group institutions were allowed to charge very large variable contributions. That is why I made no commitment on Tuesday on how we would deal with that problem, on which we need to reflect further. He is right that there is an issue of fairness, which we will address.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
Will my right hon. Friend do all that he can to stop higher education from disintegrating into a free market free-for-all, either by imposing a cap or by requiring a high proportion of additional fees levied by some of the top universities to be paid out in bursaries to poorer students?
Vince Cable
Yes, my hon. Friend is quite right; there has to be choice and there will be some competition among universities, which is welcome. That is very far short of a laissez-faire free market. We do not want that. There has to be protection for low-income students when they graduate. We will build in those protections and will ensure that there is a proper progressive scheme.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
4. What steps he plans to take to ensure that businesses in deprived areas receive support through local enterprise partnerships.
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)
First, I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his promotion to the Opposition Front Bench as a shadow Transport Minister.
Local enterprise partnerships will be a vital element in our new framework for economic development. At the same time, we are planning to modernise business support to improve both access to information and the quality of advice. That will be especially important to firms in remote or deprived areas.
John Woodcock
I thank the Minister for that answer and for his kind words. Does he accept that the recovery is currently very fragile? What interim measures will he put in place while the regional growth fund is being established and will he commit to funding the vital marina project in my constituency?
Mr Prisk
The hon. Gentleman has astutely got on to the record his local project and I commend him for that, but he will understand that a week before the comprehensive spending review I am not going to pre-empt such matters. I will say, however, that the combination of making sure that we have genuine economic development partnerships that are rooted in the communities and ensuring that they are a genuine partnership between business and civic leaders will enable local areas such as Barrow and Furness to set their own priorities and not have Whitehall telling them what they should do.
Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)
Although South Thanet is in one of the richest regions in the south-east, it is the 64th-most deprived district in the country. Does the Minister agree that LEPs must be there to support the most deprived districts even within richer regions?
Mr Prisk
One of the great advantages of moving away from the one-size-fits-all general regional development agencies is that local enterprise partnerships can respond to local needs. I know that my hon. Friend, who fights her corner for her constituents well, will make sure that that happens.
Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
Yesterday, PricewaterhouseCoopers warned of half a million lost private sector jobs with the Government’s scrapping of schools, hospitals and road contracts. Meanwhile, Ministers from the Departments for Business, Innovation and Skills and for Communities and Local Government continue squabbling about what local enterprise partnerships can do, blocking resources that the private sector says it needs now. Why should businesses believe that the Minister and his colleagues have any plan for local growth or jobs when they are in such a shambles and chaos over LEPs?
Mr Prisk
We have inherited a situation in which the funds have run out, as the Labour party has said. That is why we are focusing on the things that really matter—tackling the public deficit to keep interest rates lower for longer, making sure that small businesses see their corporation tax go down and tackling red tape. The Labour party failed to deal with all that, but we will.
Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD)
5. How many apprenticeship places his Department plans to fund in 2010-11.
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
6. How many apprenticeship places his Department plans to fund in 2010-11.
The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning (Mr John Hayes)
Just days after taking office we announced—
Mr Speaker
Order. It is always a terrible pain to have to interrupt the mellifluous tones of the Minister, but I think he meant to make it clear that questions five and six are grouped together.
Mr Hayes
I am always grateful for your benevolence and advice on these matters, Mr Speaker.
Days after taking office we announced an additional 50,000 apprenticeships over the financial year, taking the total to be delivered this year to well over 300,000 places—a record for the apprenticeship programme. The National Apprenticeship Service has assured me that we are on track to deliver on this commitment.
Gordon Birtwistle
I am particularly pleased to hear of the efforts being made to fund more apprenticeships and I thank the Minister for his involvement in securing this scheme. However, I am concerned that many businesses in my constituency who want to take on more apprentices are struggling with access, support and advice. Has the Minister, or the agency responsible for the scheme, made any advertising plans to broaden participation in this excellent scheme?
Mr Hayes
Yes; we appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s point. I have asked my officials to look closely at these matters. We appreciate that some of the supply-side barriers to small businesses, in particular, getting involved in apprenticeships need to be lifted. We know that to rebuild the apprenticeship programme after the sorry state it was left in by the previous regime—I do not want to be unnecessarily unkind, but I emphasise the word “unnecessarily”—we will have to do a lot of work to involve more businesses to satisfy our demands and learner wishes.
Andrew Stephenson
I thank the Minister for the answer that he has just given my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle). How will the Minister ensure that apprenticeship schemes are made available to all people, not just young people?
Mr Hayes
My hon. Friend is right that we need to consider closely not just the apprenticeships that are available to people as they leave school or college, but those for people who want to reskill or upskill. Lord Leitch, in a report that the previous Administration commissioned, made it clear that that is vital because of the demographics, the challenges that we face and the competitive pressures from those countries that have invested in apprenticeships. We will certainly take his remarks on board.
Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)
What preliminary discussions has the Department had with private sector employers who are about to provide those many hundreds, if not thousands, of apprenticeships? Does the Department have a target or time scale for delivering them?
Mr Hayes
I do not want to be repetitive, Mr Speaker, and you would not let be so, but I make it absolutely clear that almost as soon as we entered government we transferred an additional £150 million into the apprenticeship budget to create extra apprenticeships. Yes, of course, I am working with businesses, small and large, to make that dream—that vision—a reality. Indeed, we held a consultation on that over the summer, which I know the hon. Gentleman will have studied closely.
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)
7. What steps he is taking to ensure that Britain’s science and innovation sector contributes to economic growth.
The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Willetts)
Science and innovation are critical to our future prosperity and strongly supported by this Government. As part of the spending review, we are continuing to strengthen the way we support science and innovation, and improving the way they contribute to economic growth.
Stephen Metcalfe
I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer. I am sure that we all agree that the Government have a very important role to play in supporting science and innovation, but there are many other organisations and businesses that need to come together to support more scientific research. What steps can his Department take to foster the big society approach to more research and development?
Mr Willetts
In Britain we are very fortunate to have some very substantial charities that support scientific research, especially medical research, such as the Wellcome Trust and Cancer Research UK. Indeed, only this week I was able to announce a £50 million joint project on tumour profiling to improve cancer treatment between the Medical Research Council and Cancer Research UK.
Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)
The Minister will be aware that knowledge transfer partnerships mean that the Russell group universities contribute £2 billion to British exports. Is he surprised, therefore, that Lord Browne dedicated just 300 words in a 30,000-word report to the employer contribution? Will the Minister say more than his colleagues have about the contribution that employers will make to higher education funding?
Mr Willetts
It is good to see the right hon. Gentleman in the House, and I look back to our exchanges when he was a Minister with responsibilities in this area. Of course, when he was a Minister in the Department, he was one of the people who commissioned Lord Browne’s review and agreed its terms of reference. I very much regret that in his first intervention on the review, he has not welcomed the fact that Lord Browne discharged the remit that he was set. It is very important that businesses contribute, alongside individuals and the taxpayer, and we are pursuing that as part of the CSR.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
Does the Minister accept that the performance of higher education in engaging with the private sector varies considerably? Will he consider making the handing out of research grants conditional on institutions finding private sector partners?
Mr Willetts
That is a very important point, and we certainly welcome business backing for research, alongside public funding. There is very important evidence that public funding for research can be complemented by business backing. If I recall correctly, one of the best pieces of evidence on the subject is a research paper where one of the authors is now an official in Her Majesty’s Treasury, so it is a document that we particularly value.
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
In mid-September, apparently preparing the way for big cuts in the science and research budget, the Secretary of State managed to insult hundreds of hard-working British scientists by implying on the “Today” programme that
“something in the order of 45 per cent of…research grants…were going…to research that was not…excellent”.
As the US, France, Germany and China are increasing their investment in science and research to drive economic growth, is not this just one more reason why those who thought we had the Sage of Westminster and Two Brains running the ship are finding that we actually have Arthur Daley and the rest of the cast of “Minder” running the sails?
Mr Willetts
The countries that the hon. Gentleman cites—incidentally, I welcome him to his new position on the Front Bench—do not have the mess in the public finances that we inherited as a result of the performance of his Government. None of them is borrowing at the high level that we inherited, yet despite that, we remain strongly committed to science and excellent research in our universities.
James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con)
8. What recent representations he has received on access to finance for small businesses.
Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)
9. What recent representations he has received on access to finance for small businesses.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
15. What recent representations he has received on access to finance for small businesses.
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)
The Government believe that improving access to finance is vital for small businesses. In response to our formal consultation on access to credit, we received more than 170 representations, and we will respond to them shortly. In addition, yesterday the British Bankers Association published its taskforce report on business lending, which has 17 separate recommendations. The Government welcome the progress made by the taskforce to date.
James Morris
I thank the Minister for his answer. Many small businesses in my constituency and in the broader black country are still complaining about their inability to get capital to grow their businesses. Does he agree that this is now becoming a vital issue? Will he outline the steps that the Government are going to take to ensure that we get that capital into those businesses, which are absolutely vital to the future of the region and the areas that I represent in generating private sector jobs growth?
Mr Prisk
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is why, right away, within a month, we extended the enterprise finance guarantee by £200 million to help up to 2,000 more businesses. More than that, we have been actively pressing the banks to sort out the lending code, to deal with information so that it is more transparent, and to ensure that businesses have the opportunity to appeal. Yesterday, the taskforce reported back, and we will study its proposals. Let me make it clear, however, that as far as this Government are concerned, the real test now will be for the banks’ words to be matched by their actions.
Jake Berry
Small businesses in my constituency, which includes some of this country’s leading manufacturers, are reliant on credit insurance. What steps are being taken to ensure that such insurance remains available to them?
Mr Prisk
My hon. Friend is right to raise that issue, which he has discussed with me in the past. This is a particularly acute problem for those in the construction sector. We have sought assurances from the principal insurers in this area that they have now put in place for the coming year a sufficient risk capability, and they have given us those assurances. As with the banks, we will be closely scrutinising this to ensure that what they have said they have done is implemented in the coming months.
Jason McCartney
I echo my hon. Friends in pointing out that one of the biggest issues that I am facing in my constituency is the lack of lending to small and medium-sized businesses. In addition, Lloyds TSB has announced in the past month that it is closing the only branch in a market town called Meltham. In stressing to the banks that they need to get lending, will the Minister also stress that they need to start serving our communities?
Mr Prisk
This is something that we have raised with the banks. On Monday, however, I want to go further—that is when we will convene our new small business economic forum with the express intention of bringing Government, businesses and the banks together so that we can deal with these issues and start to ensure that credit is available for all businesses, large and small.
Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op)
The Secretary of State has rightly commented on the obligations of state-supported banks to do more to help our small businesses in the interests of the national economy. Will the Minister tell us whether the new growth fund set up by the banking taskforce and announced yesterday will have on its board a Government representative in order to influence policy decisions?
Mr Prisk
We met the banks yesterday and are perfectly willing to engage with them on how that could happen. We may well wish to ensure that the Government have a stake in that role, but as we received the recommendations just yesterday, I am sure the hon. Gentleman and the Committee that he chairs will understand that we want to examine them more closely. The new growth fund is a positive step which will deal with the gap that Rowlands identified in the case of mid-cap businesses. It is a welcome step, and the Government want to work with the banks to make it work effectively.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
But does the Minister agree with the Deputy Prime Minister, who said on 27 April on Radio 5 Live about state-owned banks not lending enough to small businesses:
“What we’re saying is that the directors of those banks should be held responsible and if they fail to honour those lending targets they should be sacked”?
Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab)
I do not believe that the Minister is really focusing his attention on the question. By his own Department’s definition, small enterprises are those with zero to 49 employees, and they have an average turnover of less than £3 million. How will the new business growth fund proposed yesterday by the British Bankers Association help those businesses, given that businesses will have to have a turnover of between £10 million and £100 million to apply and the average turnover of a small business is £3 million?
Mr Prisk
May I first welcome the hon. Gentleman to his position? Unfortunately, however, his first question confuses two matters. The growth fund is about investing equity into mid-cap businesses, as I described to the hon. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey). Micro-businesses, which are very important, are an entirely different animal. That is where bank lending is crucial, and that is what we are dealing with. We are particularly keen to ensure that there is a proper lending arrangement for micro-businesses, and we are talking to the banks about how we can get one, but Members should not confuse capital investment and bank lending. They are two different things.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
10. When he intends to introduce an ombudsman to enforce the grocery supply code of practice.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)
May I begin by recognising how long and hard my hon. Friend has campaigned on this issue, and indeed how successful he has been? He will know that the coalition statement commits the Government to introducing what we are now calling a groceries code adjudicator, and in our response to the consultation on 3 August, we set out how we would take that forward. I am pleased to be able to tell him that we now have approval to introduce a draft Bill this Session, and that the aim is to publish it for pre-legislative scrutiny before the end of the year.
Andrew George
I am very grateful to the Minister. The long-awaited code is now in place, but without an adjudicator it is like having rules for rugby without a referee. As the initiative has cross-party support and we have an extended Session, is it not possible to implement it this Session?
Mr Davey
I very much hope that my hon. Friend will engage in the pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft Bill as actively as he did in campaigning for the code. As we have not even published the draft Bill yet, it is a little early to say when the actual Bill will be introduced or whether that will be this Session or next, but I will keep him and the House informed.
Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)
11. What progress he has made in reducing the number of non-departmental public bodies and executive agencies sponsored by his Department, with particular reference to bodies responsible for further and higher education.
The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)
We are taking radical steps to reform the network of bodies sponsored by my Department. We announced this morning that we would abolish 17 partner organisations, merge eight, reconstitute two as charities and give further consideration to the future of nine more.
Jesse Norman
I thank the Secretary of State for that excellent response. Hereford college of technology is an outstanding institution, and I would welcome his visiting it if he should choose to do so at some time. Like many colleges, it labours under regulation by five separate bodies covering both further and higher education. Is there further scope to streamline the regulation of bodies covering such combined institutions?
Vince Cable
Yes, there is further scope to simplify the landscape of further education quangos, and we intend to pursue that. There are far too many organisations, making it impossible for further education colleges to do their job, and we will remove some and simplify the whole system greatly.
Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)
Has the Secretary of State also done a U-turn on his views of Sir Philip Green, who gave advice about non-departmental public bodies? Once upon a time he said, talking about Sir Philip Green, that he had
“no time for billionaire tax dodgers who step off the plane from their tax havens…and have the effrontery to tell us how to…run our tax policies”.
Has he changed his mind on that as well?
Mr Speaker
Order. We do not need a character assessment of Sir Philip Green, what we require is comments on the subject matter of the question. The Secretary of State is welcome to volunteer them, otherwise we will move on.
Vince Cable
I am certainly happy to answer. I have not changed my views—I think Sir Philip Green should pay his taxes in the UK.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
12. What recent progress he has made on the creation of a green investment bank.
The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)
We remain committed to creating a green investment bank that will support the growth, industrial transformation and greening of the UK economy. Over the summer, we made good progress on the role and form of the bank and its relationship with other Government policies. I will make a statement on the bank shortly after the spending review.
Simon Hughes
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. May I encourage him, in the remaining days before the final settlement of Government spending is reached, to ensure that a green investment bank has sufficient funds to make it a real agent for change towards a sustainable economy as well as the ability to lever in the maximum additional investment, and to follow the best models in other countries and among those proposed to the Government? This is a real test of the Government’s green credentials, and I hope he fights that case to the wire.
Vince Cable
I accept that the test my hon. Friend sets is a good test of the Government’s green credentials. The bank must be ambitious and it must lever in substantial amounts of private capital. We must not be excessively constrained and must open up the possibility of subsequent expansion. I am sure we will give him a satisfactory answer.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that if a green investment bank is to be successful, it must embrace all the science and technology available in our country? Much of that is seated in our great universities—we have over 120—but has he not already sold the pass? There will be substantial cuts in university budgets, which will affect towns, cities and innovation in this country.
Vince Cable
You are right, Mr Speaker, that we have strayed a little.
The hon. Gentleman chaired the Select Committee on Children, Schools and Families for many years, so I am sure he knows that in my statement on Tuesday, I spoke about the implication of the teaching grant for student-graduate contributions. The implications for research remain to be seen till next week.
George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)
Does the Secretary of State agree that the green investment bank is a key part of the important task of shifting our low-carbon policy from one that is based on restriction, targets and negative regulation to one based on enterprise, innovation, science and community? Crucially, does he also agree that the bank must be able to issue bonds? Will he make representations to the Treasury to ensure that its ability to do so is established in the legislation?
Vince Cable
At this stage, we are not specifying the precise financial techniques that will be employed, but clearly, we will retain options and look at the variety of possibilities in future. Moreover, I would stress that the green investment bank is one of several policies that is driving the low-carbon economy, which also include reform of the electricity tariff system, the green deal and those that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change is pursuing.
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
13. What consultation Royal Mail plans to undertake with businesses and the public on proposals to close sorting offices in Yorkshire and the North East.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)
Decisions regarding the rationalisation of Royal Mail’s mail centres are operational matters, which are the responsibility of the company’s senior management team. The Government are not directly involved in those decisions. The rationalisation process was centred on an agreement between the Communication Workers Union and Royal Mail. I understand that Royal Mail is not obliged to consult publicly on its internal review of proposals for restructuring its mail centres. However, it commits to keep all interested external stakeholders informed, and I believe that it has been in contact with the hon. Gentleman.
Hugh Bayley
The hon. Gentleman and the Government should be concerned about how the Post Office and Royal Mail serve their customers. Two years ago, when Royal Mail shifted the sorting of second-class mail from York to Leeds, it gave me a firm undertaking that it would consult the public if ever it considered shifting the sorting of first-class mail as well, and closing the York sorting office. That is what the company now proposes, but it has not consulted. Will the Minister ensure that the company consults businesses that will be affected and the general public in my constituency, or does the Government’s enthusiasm for privatising Royal Mail put them in a position in which they are no longer concerned about the customer?
Mr Davey
I am sure that Royal Mail will again be in contact with the hon. Gentleman on those points, but he must tell his constituents that the experience of rationalising mail sorting centres has led not only to efficiency improvements that reduce the costs of sorting and delivering mail, but to an improvement in customer service to his constituents. If he wants quality and delivery to improve for his constituents, he should support that rationalisation.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
May I urge the Minister to consult carefully with the remote businesses and communities of the Yorkshire dales which rely hugely on the Royal Mail to survive and conduct their business?
Mr Davey
My hon. Friend is right that the Royal Mail needs to consider the interests of small and medium enterprises. Indeed, it is part of our approach in the Postal Services Bill to ensure that our new policy framework will do that. I hope that he will be reassured that experience of rationalising mail sorting centres has led to significant improvements to customer service.
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
Can the Minister explain what guarantees he will give that a privatised Royal Mail service will continue to do business through the Post Office rather than looking for other outlets and perhaps leaving rural post offices in Yorkshire and elsewhere with very little hope of survival?
Mr Davey
May I begin by welcoming the hon. Lady to her new role? I look forward to many weeks in Committee considering the Bill. She will know that there is an agreement between Royal Mail and Post Office Ltd, called the inter-business agreement, and it is that agreement—not a Government guarantee—that decides that relationship. We expect and believe that that inter-business agreement will continue.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
14. If he will take steps to ensure that his Department’s one-in, one-out plan for business regulation will include new business regulations originating at EU level.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)
This Government are determined to reverse the rise in regulation that is constricting enterprise and stifling growth. We have introduced the one-in, one-out system of regulatory control for domestic regulation, to bring about a fundamental change in the way that regulations are drawn up, introduced and implemented.
We will also take a rigorous approach to tackling EU regulations. The Government will engage earlier in the Brussels policy process; take strong cross-government negotiating lines; and work to end the so-called “gold-plating” of EU regulations, so that when European rules are implemented into UK law, it is done without putting British businesses at a competitive disadvantage.
Mr Hollobone
May I urge the Minister to include EU regulations in the one-in, one-out system, as I understand that compliance with EU regulations costs this country some 3% of its annual gross domestic product?
Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)
I note that the Minister did not address the question asked by the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone). Is he not willing to tell Parliament the truth that in fact business regulations are part of the common market, which means that they cannot be vetoed by the Government? What is required is for the Government to stop the gold-plating that is done by the civil service when regulations come from Europe.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
16. What progress has been made towards reinstating an operating and financial review to ensure that directors’ social and environmental duties have to be covered in company reporting; and if he will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)
The Department is currently consulting on the future of narrative reporting which addresses the coalition commitment to reinstate an operating and financial review. The consultation closes on 19 October and we will then consider the responses and take a view on how to take this commitment forward by the end of the year.
Roger Williams
I thank the Minister for that reply and his active interest in this matter. I believe that this coalition Government will be the greenest Government ever, but we need to promote sustainable investment. The OFR will have a key role to play in that, especially in ensuring that the same standards apply for independent verification and financial reporting. Can the Minister assure me that the Government will support that?
Mr Davey
This Government will be the greenest Government ever, and when my hon. Friend reads the consultation document he will see that we have some very interesting ideas about how to improve the way in which companies report on social and environmental matters. I hope that we will be able to drive up the quality of reporting and disclosures by companies in that area.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
17. What steps he is taking to encourage universities to focus on the employability of graduates.
The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Willetts)
Students rightly expect better information about their chances of a job after studying different courses at different universities, and universities need to do more to improve the employability of their graduates. That is why I have asked universities to publish statements on what they do for students’ employment prospects. The vast majority have now done so.
Nigel Mills
I thank the Minister for that answer. Does he agree that a key method of achieving increased employability are schemes such as those set up by David Nieper, a full service clothing manufacturer in Alfreton in my constituency? It has agreed a scheme with Nottingham Trent university that will ensure that students get a full range of experience and skills in the textiles sector to increase their chances of employment after they finish their course.
Mr Willetts
I agree with my hon. Friend. Indeed, one of the proposals in Lord Browne’s report that we are looking at very carefully is to do more to encourage the accreditation of skills developed in businesses and the workplace as part of a degree qualification.
Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)
18. What recent representations he has received on access to finance for small businesses.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
19. What recent representations he has received on access to finance for small businesses.
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)
I refer the hon. Gentlemen to the answer I gave to a similar question earlier.
Chris Evans
Atega Business Solutions, a new business start-up based in my constituency, tells me that part funding is available to it, but that in most cases it has to spend 100% of the cost before it is eligible to claim back 50%, which deters it from applying. What advice would the Minister give to Atega to secure funding when money is tight?
Mr Prisk
It is important that businesses not only press their own bank, but shop around, because there tends to be an anxiety that, having been turned down by one bank, they will not be successful elsewhere—I remember that when I started my own business in the last recession. It is also important, if the hon. Gentleman can, to press that case on his constituents’ behalf with the British Bankers Association. If he does so, would he copy me in? If his constituents continue to have problems, I would like to ensure that the banks understand that we take an interest in the plight and prospects of our small businesses.
Mr Baron
The measures introduced by the coalition Government to help small businesses have been a vast improvement on what went before under the previous Government. However, in the specific cases bought to the Department’s attention by Members of Parliament in which commercially viable small and medium-sized enterprises are still being denied access to capital, can I have the Minister’s assurance that the Department will do everything it can to help?
Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)
My Department’s responsibilities include helping to drive growth and rebalance the economy, which we can do by building on the strength of manufacturing, other knowledge industries and the science and research base, by helping businesses to grow by getting rid of excessive regulation and helping them access credit, by being open to trade and foreign investment, by encouraging the development of a skilled work force and by spreading opportunities and life chances to as many people as possible.
Dr Poulter
Working in agriculture is still an important life choice for many people in rural areas, and I am sure that, like me, the Minister would like to see a profitable and vibrant agricultural sector. However, will he please outline what steps he will take to support vocational and apprenticeship schemes in the agricultural sector?
The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning (Mr John Hayes)
Like my hon. Friend, I care about growers and farmers, because of the constituency I represent and because I know the difference that they make to our nation. Mindful of the concerns he expressed, and of others like them, I have already asked officials to work with the sector skills council in this area to see what further apprenticeship programmes can be developed in agriculture and related subjects.
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)
T4. What action is the Minister taking, alongside his colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government, to prevent the regional economy of the south-west from entering a slump because of the parochial disagreements in the region? Or are DCLG and businesses unable to agree, in the same way that the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats seem unable to agree in the south-west?
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)
I will ignore the flim-flam at the end. What matters to the hon. Lady is ensuring an effective partnership in her area. There is squabbling in Somerset and Devon, which the people concerned have to sort out. If they do not, they will fall behind. That is the message for them, and I hope she will support me on that.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
T2. Odstock Medical Ltd in my constituency was the first commercial entity to be set up under the NHS. It does vital work developing medical devices alleviating the condition of people with multiple sclerosis. Unfortunately, it is unable to access the SME support from the Department. Given that its major shareholder is the local hospital, will the Minister meet me to discuss how it can be reclassified as an SME so that it can access that support and grow its business, which does vital work?
Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)
T5. Can the Minister explain what he will do to ensure that our universities stay at the leading edge of research and innovation? That is especially important as, for many universities, the Browne proposals will mean only replacement income, not growth and investment money, despite the quite disgraceful hike in tuition fees proposed.
The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Willetts)
The package proposed by Lord Browne as a whole is intended to put our universities on a stable and secure long-term funding basis that will enable us to support and encourage their work in research, and we are considering carefully the new proposals from Sir James Dyson for technology innovation centres.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
T3. Further to the excellent question from my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone), given the volume of regulation that comes from the EU, does the Minister accept that unless the one-in, one-out policy applies to EU regulation as well, it will have only a limited impact? I understand that the Minister said that the policy would apply to EU legislation in due course, but can he give us a time scale for that?
Mr Prisk
There are two steps. One is to ensure that the practice that we follow deals with the gold-plating, which has quite rightly been raised by Members on both sides of the House. That is our first step, but as my hon. Friend has pointed out—and as my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey) pointed out in his answer earlier—we are ensuring that we deal with domestic legislation first. We will then ensure that we look to include EU legislation. [Interruption.] I love this coming from the Opposition, who allowed 14 new working regulations every working day. We are tackling regulation; they funked it.
John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)
T10. If the Business Secretary had been able to accept my invitation to open the world’s most advanced plastics recycling factory in my constituency two weeks ago, he would have learnt that the decision to invest in this country was based on a £1 million grant from the regional development agency. How much will be available through such grants to attract other overseas businesses to invest in my constituency in the next three years?
Vince Cable
I am sorry that I did not have the opportunity to visit the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. I will try to make up for that in future. We want to attract inward investment, but it was not at all clear that the best way of doing so was through the RDAs, which were duplicating each other’s work. In key overseas countries, for example, there have often been several RDAs competing with each other, using public money in a completely unstructured and unhelpful way. We are going to resolve that.
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
T6. In my constituency of Pendle, many graduates earn far less on average than those working in other parts of the country. Does my right hon. Friend welcome the Browne review’s proposals to raise the threshold for fees repayment from £15,000 to £21,000?
Mr Willetts
My hon. Friend draws attention to an important feature of the Browne review, which is also one reason why the analysis by the Institute for Fiscal Studies suggested that the poorest 30% of students would be better off as a result of those proposals.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
Can the Minister state whether he has received the petition from the Science is Vital group, which lobbied Parliament last Saturday, and also say whether he has listened to the group, and if not, why not?
Mr Willetts
I believe that the Science is Vital group is also presenting a petition today. I hope to meet the members of that campaign to discuss their commitment to science and to emphasise that this Government are committed to excellent science research.
Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
T7. The Minister will be aware of the thousands of companies that in the past have supplied Departments, an example of which is F. J. Bamkin in my constituency, which used to supply socks to the Ministry of Defence. Can he say what progress his Department has made in achieving the manifesto commitment to deliver “25 per cent of government research and procurement contracts through SMEs”?
Mr Prisk
The key to changing the system is to ensure that we open up the contracts. That is why we have already started to publish those contracts online, so that every business, large or small, can see what is on offer. Then we need to remove the barriers that exist, which is why we are tackling things such as the repeated pre-qualifications that are necessary for the same work in neighbouring areas. Removing those barriers, opening up the contracts—that is how we are going to hit the targets.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
Yesterday I spoke to Dr Paul Greatrix, registrar of the university of Nottingham. He described the Government’s immigration cap as wrong-headed and perverse, because it will hamper the free trade in ideas and prevent our world-class international university from recruiting the brightest and best minds to join its highly skilled research team. What will the Minister do to ensure that our university’s excellent reputation is maintained?
Vince Cable
We very much believe in the free trade of ideas, and we want Britain to be open. We are looking at the moment at how we can reconcile this with the coalition’s policy to maintain a cap on non-EU migration.
Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)
T8. Cumbria university, which has one of its largest campuses in the Lancaster part of my constituency, has experienced a number of financial and managerial problems over the past few years. Can the Minister comment on the university’s viability, given its new business plan?
Mr Willetts
I know that my hon. Friend has been closely involved with that university, as have other hon. Members. The Higher Education Funding Council for England advises me that, with the university’s new management arrangements and its new plan, it will have a far better prospect for the future.
Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)
On Tuesday, Tata Steel announced its intention to close its Living Solutions business in Shotton, with the loss of some 180 jobs. This is a hammer blow to all those employees and their families, as well as to the local economy. Will the Secretary of State join me in pressing the company to reconsider its decision, and also look at the future of the whole modular construction business?
Vince Cable
I am always happy to meet Opposition Members who have local difficulties with local companies; I have already done so and I am happy to talk to the hon. Gentleman about this. I do not know the details of the case, and I have to say at the outset that we are not in a position to make available large amounts of public money, but if we can help in other ways, we will.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
T9. Will the Minister confirm his commitment to ensuring that the nation has the right kind of skills for a sustainable economic recovery by supporting ambitious young people and adults such as those studying at Kirklees college to improve their education and skills in further education?
Mr Hayes
Yes, I do indeed recognise the excellent work of our colleges. That is why we want to give them more freedom, more discretion and more power to respond to the needs of learners and local businesses. We have begun to do that during our time in government, and I should like to draw the House’s attention to today’s written statement, which goes further along those lines.
Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
Does the Secretary of State remember the Lib Dem halcyon days when he sat here on the Opposition side of the House opposing university top-up fees and walked through the same Lobby as me? He was also against the privatisation of Royal Mail, but we now know the price of a Liberal pledge: a seat on the Government Front Bench and a ministerial salary. What a price to pay.
Vince Cable
I have always enjoyed joining the hon. Gentleman in the Division Lobby, and I have done so on many occasions. I have also enjoyed his humour. If he had followed my writings as closely as he claims to have done, he would have realised that I was advocating the introduction of private capital into Royal Mail about six years ago.
Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)
Research by the Institute for Fiscal Studies suggests that the poorest 30% of graduates would pay less than they do now if the Browne review were to be implemented. However, potential students do not automatically assume that they are going to be among the bottom 30%, so any increase in tuition fees would surely be a disincentive for them to apply to go to university, even if they would ultimately be better off.
Mr Willetts
We can see from the evidence that the introduction of fees by the previous Labour Government did not have the effect that many people in all parts of the House feared. In reality, we have seen an increase in the number of applications from students from poorer backgrounds, because they knew that they would not have to pay up-front fees. That key feature of the system would be maintained under Lord Browne’s proposals.
Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)
A lot of the businesses in my constituency are involved in the offshore oil and gas sector, which is a global business that depends on the movement of labour so that it can move its work force around the world. That business is seriously concerned about the cap on immigration, and I hope that the Secretary of State is having very detailed discussions with the Home Office to ensure that that business remains in the North sea and does not go elsewhere in the world.
Vince Cable
The hon. Lady is absolutely right. I have had many such representations, not only from that industry but from others. I have had discussions with the Home Secretary about this, and we are determined to keep Britain open for business and attracting the kind of companies that she has in her constituency.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
Will the Business Secretary set out the timetable for the setting up of the local economic partnerships? Will he explain which umbrella body should be used to apply for European funding such as the rural development programme? Will he also guide us on the position on match funding going forward?
Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab)
The deep-seated structural challenges facing the west midlands economy mean that our region has been hit harder by the downturn than anywhere else in the country, and the recovery will take longer, too. Is the Secretary of State prepared to meet a cross-party delegation of Members of Parliament from the west midlands and business leaders from the region so that we can discuss plans to bring new industries and new jobs to the region?
Vince Cable
I am happy to do that. In recent times, I have met Opposition Members from the west midlands who were concerned about the car industry and others who were concerned about ceramics. I am happy to meet the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
My right hon. Friend has asserted the Government’s determination that graduate contributions should be linked to ability to pay. Will he therefore consider supplementing the Browne proposals with a less advantageous interest rate for the highest earners?
Mr Willetts
We are, of course, considering Lord Browne’s proposals very carefully and in greater detail. One issue that we will certainly consider is the exact interest rate that should be applied.
Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)
What an incredible transformation the Business Secretary has made from a Labour councillor in Glasgow to a Tory front-man in Westminster, with every principle dropped at the first sniff of power. Will he please detail what consultation process took place with the National Union of Students before reaching his own conclusions on the Browne report?
Vince Cable
I fondly remember my days on the Glasgow city council, where we achieved much. I have met representatives from the National Union of Students on several occasions. We have consulted them and continue to do so. The NUS has some useful ideas, which will hopefully supplement our response to the Browne report. We shall continue to maintain a dialogue.
Mr Speaker
Order. All good things come to an end, and there is heavy pressure on time today.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman is an extremely experienced Member. He has now ratcheted up something in the region of 31 years in the House, so he knows that points of order come after statements.
Mr Sheerman
This is about the statement. There is no list with it. We were promised a list. We—
Mr Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman is a very dextrous parliamentarian. He will try to catch my eye during business questions and he will be able to wrap his various points into a beautifully textured question if he gets the opportunity.
Business of the House
(14 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
Will the Leader of the House give us the forthcoming business?
The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Young)
The business for the week commencing 18 October will be as follows:
Monday 18 October—Proceedings on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill (Day 2).
Tuesday 19 October—My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister plans to make a statement on the strategic defence and security review, followed by proceedings on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill (Day 3).
Wednesday 20 October—My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer plans to make a statement on the comprehensive spending review, followed by proceedings on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill (Day 4).
Thursday 21 October—Second Reading of the Local Government Bill [Lords].
Friday 22 October—Private Members' Bills.
The provisional business for the week commencing 25 October will include:
Monday 25 October—Proceedings on the Parliamentary Voting System and -Constituencies Bill (Day 5).
Tuesday 26 October—Second Reading of the Savings Accounts and Health in Pregnancy Grant Bill.
Wednesday 27 October—Second Reading of the Postal Services Bill, followed by motion to approve a European document relating to economic policy co-ordination.
Thursday 28 October—General debate on the comprehensive spending review.
I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 28 October will be:
Thursday 28 October—A debate on the internet and privacy.
Hilary Benn
I thank the Leader of the House for his statement. May I also welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) and pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster Central (Ms Winterton). The House will be pleased to know that she has moved one seat along on our Front Bench, as a reward.
Mr Speaker, you have been clear and consistent with Ministers in saying that they must make major policy announcements to this House. On 9 September, the Leader of the House assured us that the Government would adhere to the ministerial code in this respect. Over the weekend, however, the findings of Lord Browne’s report on tuition fees were extensively leaked to the media, and this morning we heard the Minister for the Cabinet Office talking to the “Today” programme about the future of public bodies before talking to us. It seems that Mr Holmes and Dr Watson, as I understand the Leader of the House and his deputy were christened by my predecessor, have made no progress at all in dealing with this serial problem.
Following Tuesday’s statement, will the Leader of the House find time for a debate on the Browne report, so that Liberal Democrat Members in particular—who, before the election, knowing about the deficit, signed solemn pledges to vote against lifting the cap on fees—can tell us whether they now intend to follow the Deputy Prime Minister and the Business Secretary in ripping up their pledges? I think that their constituents deserve an answer.
Will the right hon. Gentleman also find time for a debate on the decision to take child benefit away from so many middle-income families while leaving it in place for households earning nearly twice as much? It is unfair, it is unjust, and no credible explanation has been offered. We certainly heard none from the Prime Minister yesterday. Given the Prime Minister’s inability to answer the Leader of the Opposition’s perfectly straightforward question about the number of families who would be affected, will the Leader of the House ask him to do his homework, and place the information in the Library so that we can obtain the full facts and then have a debate? I am sure that that would be welcomed by the many members of the Cabinet who clearly had no idea that the decision had been made, because the Chancellor decided to tell the media before he told them. Should not the House show some compassion to those unfortunate individuals by giving them the chance denied by the occupant of No. 11 to tell us what they think about this terrible policy?
Earlier this year the Prime Minister said that the comprehensive spending review
“will affect our economy, our society—indeed our whole way of life…for years, perhaps decades, to come.”
In the light of that, a single day’s debate is wholly inadequate. Given the scale and extent of the cuts, the House must have the time that it needs to discuss the implications for the people whom we all represent. Will the Leader of the House provide that opportunity, and will he confirm that the House will have a chance to vote on the comprehensive spending review?
While the Leader of the House is thinking about his answer to that question, will he explain why he has not yet made time available for an Opposition day debate? Is it because he fears the holding of such a debate while all these bad decisions are being made? Can he also tell us why the Defence Secretary will not be making next week’s statement on the strategic defence review? Is it because the Government are afraid of allowing that as well, given the Defence Secretary’s well-publicised views?
Can the Leader of the House clear up the confusion about a statement on cold weather payments? On Monday the legislation was laid without the clause on higher-rate payments of £25 a week, and yesterday the Prime Minister refused to guarantee their future, saying that an announcement would be made next week. Today’s Guardian quotes Government sources saying a whole load of contradictory things. When will this shambles come to an end, so that the people who rely on those payments can have the peace of mind that they deserve?
Finally, can the Leader of the House tell us what chance the House will have to discuss the work of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority in time to inform the current review, given the bureaucratic burden that it continues to place on all Members, and the cost of its operations to the taxpayer? Does he not agree that Members’ time should really be spent holding the Government to account, rather than doing accounts?
Sir George Young
First, let me join the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) in paying tribute to the former shadow Leader of the House, the right hon. Member for Doncaster Central (Ms Winterton). She brought a ray of sunshine into the Chamber at 11.30 every Thursday, which will now illuminate the dark recesses of the Whips Office. We wish her luck in her new disciplinary role of enforcing Opposition policies, the moment they have some.
I welcome the new shadow Leader of the House to his post. He has inherited from his father a deep affection for, and commitment to, the House of Commons, which will stand him in good stead in the job that he now does. We learnt from the excellent diaries of Chris Mullin that the right hon. Gentleman was once eyed as a contender to succeed Tony Blair as Prime Minister in 2005. The House will be disappointed that he did not throw his hat into the ring. There was a time when there was always a Benn on the ballot paper. I look forward to working with the right hon. Gentleman and his new deputy, the hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones), in our efforts to strengthen the House.
Let me now deal with the points raised by the right hon. Gentleman. The Government are making four statements this week, including the one that is to follow the business statement. We have averaged 2.8 statements per week: we have been very forthcoming in making statements to the House.
The Browne report was Lord Browne’s report; it was not the Government’s report. The moment it was available, my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary came to the House and made a statement. I am sure the House will want to debate the report, and in addition to my Liberal Democrat friends clarifying their view, I hope that the Labour Opposition will explain exactly where they stand on student finance, because there is open warfare between the Leader of the Opposition and the shadow Home Secretary.
Our proposed child benefit changes are scheduled to be introduced in 2013, and there will be an opportunity to debate them. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned one injustice between two high-income households, but there is another injustice that he did not address: that between households on much lower incomes who are paying standard rate tax, and through that tax are subsidising the child benefit of higher rate payers. I thought the Labour party stood for the many, not the few.
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the comprehensive spending review is an important issue, which is why the Government have found time for a debate, notwithstanding the Wright report recommendations, which implied that debates on spending reviews should be secured by the Backbench Business Committee. I note what the right hon. Gentleman said about making time available for a second day of debate, and the Chairman of the Committee has no doubt also noted that bid.
The Opposition will get their full quota of Opposition days, and in view of the extended length of the current Session we would be happy to enter into a dialogue on how we might increase the quota to reflect that additional sitting time.
On cold weather payments, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said yesterday, the statement about the rate will be made after the CSR. We are committed to making cold weather payments to those on low incomes when the weather demands it.
I would have thought that the right hon. Gentleman would welcome the fact that it is the Prime Minister who is to make the statement on the strategic defence review, instead of complaining about it. Could there be a subject of higher priority on which the Prime Minister might address the House?
On the question about IPSA, I am not sure that the Government would want to find time for that debate, but it is perfectly open to the Backbench Business Committee, which has a quota of approximately one day per week, to find time for such a debate if the issue is thought to be a priority.
Mr Speaker
Order. A large number of hon. and right hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye. As colleagues will be aware, ordinarily I seek to ensure that all Members who wish to do so can participate, but I give notice that that is extremely unlikely today in view of the pressure on parliamentary time and the very important Back-Bench business that is to follow. I therefore merely reiterate my usual exhortation to Members to stick to single, short supplementary questions, and to the Leader of the House to demonstrate his typical pithiness in reply.
Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)
Why do we still have to go through the ridiculous ritual of putting our clocks back every autumn, thereby plunging the nation into darkness by mid-afternoon? Will the Leader of the House give an undertaking that the Government will not seek to talk out the private Member’s Bill on this subject that is due to come before the House shortly? If he does as I ask, I suspect the only opponents will be a handful of Scots. If that is the case, should they not be told, “You’ve got your own Parliament. If you don’t like it, go away and give yourselves your own time zone”?
Sir George Young
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that, and I note the suggestion of independence in respect of the time zone. If he looks at the record, he will find that my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo) introduced a private Member’s Bill in, I think, the last Parliament, and if he looks at the Hansard account of its Second Reading debate he will find a speech that I made setting out my views. Notwithstanding that, when the current Bill’s turn comes to be debated, my ministerial colleague who will be responding for the Government will make the Government’s position clear, and I will pass on my right hon. Friend’s strong views.
Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)
At the Commonwealth games closing ceremony in a few hours’ time, Prince Edward will be sitting alongside the head of a regime accused of war crimes: President Rajapaksa of Sri Lanka. Will the Leader of the House allow a debate on whether the Commonwealth should be giving succour in that way to countries with such appalling human rights records, and on whether allowing a member of Britain’s royal family to sit next to Sri Lanka’s leader represents a change in Britain’s foreign policy to one that puts trade considerations ahead of human rights?
Sir George Young
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her question, and I understand the strength of feeling. I will draw her remarks to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and ask him to write to her with a response to the points that she has just raised.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
The Leader of the House has given us the business until Thursday 28 October. The day after that, Friday 29 October, this House will be used for the second time for the UK Youth Parliament to hold a day of debate. I am sure that many hon. Members will be delighted to see that, as will I as a trustee of that organisation. I wonder whether this would be an appropriate time for this House to debate the important issue of how we can get more young people better involved in the political process, as that is something that everybody wants.
Sir George Young
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing attention to the fact that the Youth Parliament will sit in this Chamber on that date, and my hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of the House will be representing the Government. If the sitting is anything like last year’s, it will be a fantastic success. I agree with her on the importance of engaging young people in the political process. I think it would be worth while to have a debate, and she can either apply for one in Westminster Hall or catch the eye of the Chairman of the Backbench Business Committee at one of her Wednesday sittings.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is estimated that there will be 1,000 job losses in every university in this country if we have the predicted cuts in university budgets? Is it not about time we had a serious debate on this essential element of our prosperity in this country?
Sir George Young
The Government will be spending some £90 million on universities and student support this year. The hon. Gentleman will know that this was not a protected area for the outgoing Labour Government; they had pencilled in cuts of some 20% for that budget, and we need to bear that in mind. He will have to await the outcome of the comprehensive spending review to see the resources that we are making available to the universities in the next three years.[Official Report, 2 November 2010, Vol. 517, c. 10MC.]
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
Will the Leader of the House allow a debate on fire safety linked to building regulations and materials? According to the chief fire officer for Kent, it takes a matter of minutes from ignition to collapse, and the lives of fire officers and members of the public are thereby endangered.
Sir George Young
My hon. Friend raises an important issue about the safety of those in buildings. I shall draw his remarks to the attention of the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government and see whether he can respond to the point that my hon. Friend has made.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
Will the Leader of the House ask the Ministry of Defence when it plans to come to give a statement on the compensation payments for nuclear test veterans? We have now been waiting five months for this Government to get their proverbial finger out and make a decision.
Sir George Young
I am sorry if there has been any discourtesy in not making information available to the House. I will contact the Secretary of State for Defence today and see whether we can expedite an answer.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
One of my constituents recently brought to my attention an extraordinary, but perfectly legal, tax avoidance scheme that shocked me as well as him. I am in favour of tax incentives for growth, but this particular scheme does nothing for growth. Given the welcome recent pronouncements on tax avoidance from the Treasury, will the Leader of the House consider having a debate where Members could highlight such schemes so that the Treasury could indeed make a bonfire of them?
Sir George Young
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question. The Government are committed to tackling tax avoidance and we welcome any debate on the subject. The best way to deal with such schemes is to bring them to the attention of my ministerial colleagues at the Treasury. The Government are making improvements to a scheme called DOTAS—Disclosure of Tax Avoidance Schemes—with which I am sure my hon. Friend is familiar, so that Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs receives better and earlier information about tax avoidance schemes.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
I hope that the Leader of the House will be aware of the collapse of Crown Currency Exchange, which has left people across the country, including some of my constituents, hundreds or even thousands of pounds out of pocket. Will he encourage Ministers to investigate the collapse, and in particular the fact that the company continued to accept currency orders when it had already gone bust? Will he also allow time for a debate on such matters?
Sir George Young
In common with many other Members of the House, I too have constituents who have lost money through Crown Currency Exchange. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Financial Services Authority does not regulate retail foreign exchange services, so it did not regulate in any way the business of Crown Currency Exchange. The business model was exceptional and involved taking forward risks. I shall certainly draw his remarks to the attention of my colleagues in the Treasury to see whether there is any further legislative action that the Government might take.
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
The House will know of the wholly wrong-headed proposals made by the Sentencing Guidelines Council for a reduction in sentences for violent crime. Given that today we are examining the abolition of a number of out-of-touch and superfluous quangos, may I add the Sentencing Guidelines Council to that list?
Sir George Young
My hon. Friend is right that the Sentencing Guidelines Council has made some proposals that would impact on short sentences. The Government’s view is that short sentences are appropriate in many cases, particularly those that involve assault, and the Government will respond in due course to the views of the council.
Diana R. Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
Hull has already seen the withdrawal of the university of Lincoln from its Hull campus. I am particularly concerned about the Browne recommendations on funding and their effect on Hull university. Will the Leader of the House make space in Government time for us to debate the effects on local constituencies of the withdrawal of funding to higher education institutions?
Sir George Young
The hon. Lady makes a serious point. I am sure that the House will want to debate, in due course, the recommendations of the Browne report. When we have details of how much is being made available in resources for next year, there might be an opportunity in the debate on the CSR to make the point that the hon. Lady has just made.
Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)
Is my right hon. Friend aware of the necessary upheaval caused by the important work going on in many constituencies to amalgamate several special needs schools, their transfer on to the site often of other big schools and the traffic chaos that can ensue, understandably but regrettably? Will my right hon. Friend consult the Department for Transport to see whether there is an opportunity for a debate with Ministers from both the Department for Transport and the Department for Education to try to hammer out some of those difficulties and see whether a more effective protocol could be found?
Sir George Young
My hon. Friend makes a forceful point, and that sounds to me an ideal topic for a debate in Westminster Hall. I know that many local education authorities, when they are considering the amalgamation of schools or the construction of new schools, take into account the traffic that would be generated. Sometimes they make it a condition for approval of the expansion of a school that there should be a green transport to school policy. I can only encourage my hon. Friend to make a bid for a debate in Westminster Hall.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
Will the Leader of the House make time for a debate on the Floor of the House on the Government’s significant decision to allow deep-water drilling off the west of Shetland, a decision that raises serious environmental concerns, and which was slipped out at a time when the House was not sitting and the relevant Select Committee had not yet reported, and the US investigation into the gulf of Mexico disaster still is not complete?
Sir George Young
I am not sure whether that is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change or whether it falls to the Scottish Administration to resolve it. I shall make some inquiries and ensure that the hon. Lady gets an answer.
David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con)
When does my right hon. Friend expect Parliament square to be cleared of demonstrators? Is he aware that the situation is worse than it was in the summer, with 20 illegally placed tents on the pavement meaning that nobody can use the square at all? When is he going to deal with this situation?
Sir George Young
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for once again raising this issue. I support the action that the Mayor of London took a few months ago to clear the green in the middle of the square, and I hope that that area will be restored to the condition in which it used to be. In the meantime, the camps have simply moved to the pavement. That is wholly unacceptable, and it is not what one should see in the centre of an historic capital city. We are going to consider legislation in the forthcoming Home Office Bill to put the situation right.
Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)
May we have a debate on the Air Force’s view that if it faces cuts, it is quite likely that it will be unable to protect Britain in the case of a 9/11-type attack in the future?
Sir George Young
I said in my business statement that the Prime Minister would make a statement on the strategic defence and security review. I expect that there will be a debate shortly after that in which the hon. Gentleman will have the opportunity to raise his concerns.
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
As the Government strategy rests on raising £176 billion a year more tax at the end of this Parliament than last year, may we have an early debate on economic growth, the measures the Government can take to promote it, and how we can lift spirits in this country so that that is feasible?
Sir George Young
My right hon. Friend will know that we have already introduced a number of measures to promote growth, such as reducing corporation tax and encouraging the establishment of new businesses in certain regions of the country. I hope that on the back of the CSR he will have the opportunity to make his points in the debate that I have just announced.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
May we debate early-day motion 805 on the brutal, unfair and irrational proposal that would deny Wales and the west of England our only regional passport office and destroy the jobs of 250 loyal workers, who were recently commended by a Minister for their splendid can-do attitude?
[That this House regrets the proposal to close the Newport Regional Passport Office which would result in the loss of 300 jobs and leave Wales and West of England without the services currently available only from regional offices; notes the closure would make Wales the only devolved nation in the UK without a regional office; welcomes the Newport passport workers’ commendation for the high quality of their work and their can-do co-operation when faced with the new challenges; believes that moving work and jobs from Wales to London damagingly reverses the 50-year all-party policy of relocating public sector jobs from the South East of England to areas of high unemployment; and calls for the withdrawal of this irrational, wasteful proposal.]
Sir George Young
Of course I understand the local concern about the proposed closure of the passport office in Newport. I will share that concern with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, so that she is aware of it, and I will write to the hon. Gentleman.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
May we have a debate on the purpose and adequacy of the Office of Fair Trading, which today issued an extraordinary conclusion on the beer tie and the pub companies, whose conduct was widely criticised by the then Select Committee on Business and Enterprise? That criticism has been accepted by the previous Government and by this Government. May we have a debate on this important subject to see whether that body is fit for purpose?
Sir George Young
I commend the work that the hon. Gentleman in the last Parliament did to safeguard pubs up and down the country. The question of the OFT might arise in the statement to be made shortly by my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
Earlier in the week, in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas), the Economic Secretary to the Treasury said that it was a “constructive” suggestion from Sir Philip Green for the Government to save money by delaying payments to suppliers for up to 45 days. Small and medium-sized enterprises will find that highly concerning, as they work hard to prosper in these difficult times. Will the Leader of the House find time for a statement on this issue to clarify the situation?
Sir George Young
My view is that Government Departments should settle their bills promptly.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House find time for a debate on the scope of our health and safety legislation, because it appears that now even the Scouts are being prevented from enjoying their usual games and activities?
Sir George Young
As a former Scout, I would regret any curtailment of the activities that I used to indulge in. I shall raise my hon. Friend’s concerns with the appropriate Minister and get a reply.
Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)
May we have a debate in Government time on the need to update copyright law, especially to protect small businesses such as The Priory, which is a hair and skin clinic in Bridgend? It inadvertently downloaded from the internet images that were not properly identified and has subsequently faced horrendous bills from Getty Images demanding that it make exorbitant payment for the accidental use of ill-marked images—
Sir George Young
I share the hon. Lady’s concern. I thought that there had been legislation relatively recently to address that problem, but if there is a loophole in it, I shall raise that with my hon. Friends at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
May we have an urgent debate on Burma? With the Burmese elections due on 7 November, does the Leader of the House agree that those elections need to be free and fair, and that if the Burmese regime is serious about engaging with the international community, it needs to honour its pledge and release Aung San Suu Kyi?
Sir George Young
I wholly agree with my hon. Friend’s point about the release, and I know that the British Government share that concern. He will have an opportunity on 16 November to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs about this. Alternatively, he can apply for a debate in Westminster Hall or through the Backbench Business Committee.
Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)
I would like to ask the Leader of the House for a debate on the real consequences for women of the proposed loss of child benefit—just one example of which would be the effect on their state pensions.
Sir George Young
The hon. Lady raises a legitimate point about whether the loss of child benefit will have an impact on the entitlement to a state retirement pension in the wife’s own right, and that is something that we will want to consider.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
Thanks to a bizarre decision by the Planning Inspectorate, next year Tamworth faces the prospect of severe traffic chaos and potentially long-term congestion thereafter. Will my right hon. Friend give an indication of when it will be the business of this House to abolish the Planning Inspectorate and devolve power to local planning decision makers? In the course of that debate, will we be able to discuss and review some of the decisions made by the inspectorate that have yet to be implemented?
Sir George Young
My hon. Friend will have an opportunity to address those concerns when we reach the localism Bill. We have no plans to abolish the Planning Inspectorate, which allows individuals a right of appeal against refusals by local authorities, but against that background we want to push down decisions, such as those that were previously taken by regional bodies, to a local level.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
I refer the Leader of the House to early-day motion 742, which was tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy).
[That this House calls on the Secretary of State for Wales to propose a meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee to discuss the implications for Wales of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill.]
Under current proposals, Wales will lose 25% of its parliamentary seats, yet there will be little time for discussion on the Floor of the House of the implications of that for Wales. Will the Leader of the House discuss that matter further with the Secretary of State for Wales, so that legitimate questions and grievances in Wales are given a proper hearing in the Welsh Grand Committee?
Sir George Young
I understand that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales has written to all Welsh Members setting out her decision not to refer the matter to the Welsh Grand Committee. As the hon. Gentleman will know, the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), who is the Minister with responsibility for political and constitutional issues, is giving evidence today to the Welsh Affairs Committee. The hon. Gentleman will also know that one reason why the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill is being taken on the Floor of the House is to allow Members from all parts of the UK to make their contributions. We have provided five days for debate in Committee of the whole House and two days on Report, which is an adequate opportunity for all Members to make their points. The specific issues concerning Wales arise under clause 11, and I hope that he will have an opportunity to contribute to that debate.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
May we have a debate on plans by the banks to phase out the cheque? Cheque guarantee cards are due to be phased out in June next year, which will cause enough problems, but that will be nothing compared with the problems that will be caused for small business people, charities, the housebound, pensioners and many others. They will suffer for the convenience of bankers, who seem to have forgotten what customer service is.
Sir George Young
My hon. Friend has raised concerns that are felt in constituencies represented on both sides of the House. As I understand it, the Payments Council announced last year that it had set a provisional date of 2018 to close the cheque-clearing system, and it is keen to hear as many views as possible. I also agree that that would be a perfectly legitimate subject for a debate. Perhaps she will contact the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee and see whether it catches her eye.
Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
Will the Leader of the House confirm whether we can expect a statement on Monday by either the Foreign Secretary or the Defence Secretary on the review of foreign and security policy? Does he share my concern at reports that that will be done by a written statement rather than by an oral statement in the House, which would be subject to proper scrutiny?
Sir George Young
I announced in my business statement that the Prime Minister will make a statement on the strategic defence and security review, and I announced a further statement by the Chancellor; I did not announce any other ones.
Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)
Earlier this week, we witnessed the spectacle of the unapologetic chief executive of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs admitting to even more mistakes with PAYE and trying to justify a £50,000 a month fat cat salary to the head of IT in that bureaucratic organisation. At the same time, she refused to take any responsibility for the misery that that organisation is causing my constituents. May we have a debate in Government time on that organisation’s failure to be more accountable and transparent?
Sir George Young
Evidence has been given to the Public Accounts Committee by HMRC. The Government want to see the PAC report on HMRC before responding in due course. I will certainly bear in mind my hon. Friend’s criticisms.
Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) (Lab)
May we have a debate on the implications of the Government’s changes to housing benefit? Many Members have raised serious concerns about the impact of those changes on driving up homelessness. In constituencies such as mine, where more than half of housing benefit claimants are over 60, the changes will hit pensioners particularly hard. In addition, the Government have been extremely unclear about the effect that the changes will have on homelessness provision, such as hostels and women’s refuges.
Sir George Young
I understand the hon. Lady’s concern. There was a debate on housing benefit in Westminster Hall yesterday, but I am not sure whether she was able to attend. The proposed changes will require legislation, and there will be an opportunity as the legislation goes through Parliament to raise the issues that she touches on.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
May we have a statement from the appropriate Minister on the dreadful—I mean dreadful—state of much of the education in our youth offenders institutions?
Sir George Young
There may be an opportunity to raise that particular subject at Justice questions, or it may be an appropriate topic for a debate. In the meantime, I will draw the attention of the Secretary of State for Justice to my hon. Friend’s concern.
Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Leader of the House inform us when we will get a statement on the future of the BBC World Service, particularly given my understanding that it is being treated not as a non-departmental public body or as a quango in the traditional sense, but as an arm’s length organisation? The matter is particularly important given the work that the BBC World Service does around the globe.
Sir George Young
Like the hon. Gentleman, I pay tribute to the work of the BBC World Service. It may be that that issue is better debated after next Wednesday’s CSR.
John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con)
I was selected as a parliamentary candidate by virtue of an open primary. The coalition agreement includes a proposal to conduct 200 all-postal primaries during this Parliament. Will the Leader of the House make a statement on progress on that issue?
Sir George Young
My hon. Friend is right to remind the House that the coalition agreement includes a commitment to fund 200 all-postal primaries over the course of this Parliament as part of our overall programme of reform to make our politics more accountable. As he knows, we have already embarked on a major programme of constitutional reform. We are considering how best to take forward the proposal on all-postal primaries in the light of other changes that will impact on our electoral process.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
Can we have a debate in Government time on the appointment yesterday of the Prime Minister’s new military assistant, to clarify not only the role of the Chief of the Defence Staff, but, more importantly, the role of Her Majesty the Queen as head of the armed forces? Yesterday, the justification from No. 10 was that both President Sarkozy and President Obama have military advisers and therefore so should our Prime Minister, which does not recognise the fact that they are Heads of State, unlike him.
Sir George Young
I am sure that the Prime Minister is entitled to military advice. I will give the Prime Minister notice that after his statement on Tuesday he can expect a question along those lines from the hon. Gentleman.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Last night, there was an absolutely splendid debate in the House: the Government Benches were packed; 44 Members spoke; and parliamentary history was made when for the first time the Government accepted an amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) on a European matter. However, the Opposition Benches were empty—Opposition Members were absent without leave. Will the Leader of the House encourage the Opposition to hold the Government to account?
Sir George Young
The hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) was, of course, here. I am sorry that Opposition Members were not here, because they missed a first-class performance by the Economic Secretary. They also missed a moment of history, when, for the first time in my life, I voted for an amendment on Europe tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
In light of the huge threat to hundreds of voluntary and community groups in my constituency and across the country because of cuts imposed by the Government, may we have a debate on the Government’s vision for the big society?
Sir George Young
I say very gently to the hon. Lady that the cuts imposed by the Government—to use her words—are necessary because of the deficit that we inherited from the previous Labour Government, who had pencilled in 20% cuts. Until Labour Members are much more open than they have been to date about how they would deal with the deficit, they have no credibility whatsoever on financial issues.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
The cull of quangos is welcome in enhancing accountability, but the corollary is that that accountability must go to Secretaries of State and Departments. Will my right hon. Friend instruct the Table Office and the departmental parliamentary Clerks to be more welcoming on the tabling of written questions to Departments? There should be a general principle that if a Department spends money on it, we should be able to ask questions about it.
Sir George Young
My hon. Friend makes a powerful point, which relates to the announcement in the written ministerial statement that Ministers will have direct responsibility for a number of issues that were previously covered by quangos. It follows from that that there should be a change in process at the Table Office to recognise the changes announced by my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office.
Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)
The Government efficiency tsar, Sir Philip Green, is famously efficient in organising his own tax affairs. May I add my voice to the clamour from across the House for a debate on the antisocial behaviour of tax avoiders?
Sir George Young
I think that that issue was raised and dealt with by the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills in departmental questions. As I said in reply to one of my hon. Friends, we welcome the initiatives of HMRC to close down tax avoidance. If the hon. Gentleman has a specific scheme in mind, perhaps he would like to contact the Treasury.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Will the Leader of the House find time for a debate on houses in multiple occupancy owned by private landlords? A constituent of mine, Mrs Sullivan, has talked to me in my surgery about overcrowding and antisocial behaviour in some HMOs in Harlow that are becoming an urgent problem.
Sir George Young
Local authorities have fairly extensive powers in relation to HMOs. My hon. Friend might want to establish whether his local authority is using those powers. If he believes that there is a deficiency in the powers available to local authorities, I would be happy to raise that issue with my hon. Friends at the Department for Communities and Local Government.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
Further to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith), may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider having a word with the Secretary of State for Wales about holding a meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee? I cannot remember an occasion in recent years on which there has been overwhelming demand for such a meeting and it has been denied by the Secretary of State. Not even the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood), who is in his place, would have done such a thing when he was Secretary of State for Wales. Rather than just face me down at this point, will the Leader of the House agree to have a word with her and to think again?
Sir George Young
The Secretary of State for Wales and the Minister with responsibility for political and constitutional reform, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) discussed the Bill’s provisions and their effect on Wales with Members who represent Welsh constituencies at a recent meeting in the House. The Secretary of State has set out her reasons for not acceding to the request of the former Secretary of State for Wales, the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy). There are Welsh-specific clauses in the Bill that will provide adequate opportunities for Members from Wales to have the same opportunity as other Members to raise their concerns in the House.
Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con)
The regulators are placing great demands on the banks to build up capital reserves while, as we learned today, 125,000 small businesses are in danger of going to the wall. Will the Leader of the House arrange a debate in Government time so that we can talk about ways of unlocking that money to ensure that small businesses can play their part in ensuring the success of the Budget strategy?
Sir George Young
Of course the banks, particularly those in which the Government have a substantial stake, should help to promote recovery by lending to small businesses that have worthwhile propositions. I am not sure that there is a total contradiction between rebuilding the balance sheets on the one hand and lending to small businesses on the other. If one has a robust balance sheet, it should be possible to make more provision for lending.
Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)
It is quite clear that the comprehensive spending review will mean massive consequential cuts for the funding of the Scottish Government. We understand that a dirty deal has been done between the Conservatives and their new Scottish National party allies to postpone those cuts for one year. What will the Leader of the House do to ensure that the figures are published so that people will know what the double-whammy cuts will be in the second year, and how will they be scrutinised by the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs or the Scottish Grand Committee?
Sir George Young
The hon. Gentleman must await the statement by the Chancellor of the Exchequer next Wednesday. Perhaps he will catch your eye, Mr Speaker, and ask questions about the consequences for Scotland of the overall settlement in the UK.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
May we have a debate about the recent Commission for Rural Communities report that highlighted major issues with access to services in rural North Yorkshire?
Sir George Young
I have a rural constituency, like my hon. Friend, in which it is often more difficult to provide a range of services. I hope that the Chairman of the Backbench Business Committee, who heard that question, will add it to her list of bids.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
My constituent James Goodman is a hard-working electrician who has invested in property in Egypt only to find that local builders have seized that property. His only advice from the embassy has been to get a lawyer. He has done that, and it has cost him more than £9,000. The Russian Government have looked after their citizens and have made representations to the Egyptian Government. May we have an early debate on what this Government are going to do to protect British citizens abroad?
Sir George Young
I am sorry to hear what has happened to the hon. Lady’s constituent. I suggest that she applies for an Adjournment debate and seeks the support of a Foreign Office Minister in the cause that she has just espoused.
Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Despite what the Leader of the House said earlier, the rate at which emergency cold weather payments will be made this year was fixed on Monday when the regulations were made. As things stand, 4 million of Britain’s poorest families and pensioners are to have their benefits cut by two thirds and to receive just £8.50. Should not the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions come to the House at the earliest opportunity to clear up this shambles?
Sir George Young
The rate of payment will be announced in the spending review next week. We are committed to helping vulnerable people and we will continue to make cold weather payments as and when they may be triggered, but we will not comment on the rate of those payments ahead of the spending review.
Mr Speaker
I am extremely grateful both to the Leader of the House and to all colleagues whose succinctness has meant that all 44 hon. Members who wished to question the Leader of the House have had the chance to do so. That shows what can be done when we put our minds to it.
Public Bodies Reform
(14 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
Today, the Government have taken decisive action to restore accountability and responsibility to public life. For too long, this country has tolerated Ministers who duck the difficult decisions they were elected to make. For too long, we have had too many people who were unaccountable, with a licence to meddle in people’s lives. For too long, we have had quango pay spiralling out of control, so that seven people in the Audit Commission are paid more than £150,000 a year at a time when the average civil servant’s pay is £23,000.
The landscape for public bodies needs radical reform to increase transparency and accountability, to cut out duplication of activity and to discontinue activities that are simply no longer needed. My written statement this morning outlined the start of a process to curtail the quango state. I have led an intensive review into public bodies, subjecting each to four tests. The first test was existential and asked, does the body need to exist and do its functions need to be carried out at all? The answer to that question in some cases was no. For example, we decided that the Government probably do not need an independent body to deliberate on the purchase of wine.
If, as in most cases, the body’s functions were deemed necessary, we then sought to establish whether those functions should properly be carried out at arm’s length to government. If the body carries out a highly technical activity, is required to be politically impartial or needs to act independently to establish facts, then it is right for it to remain outside direct ministerial accountability. That is the case with bodies such as the new Office for Budget Responsibility and Ofgem. However, any quango that does not meet one of these tests will be either brought back into a Department or devolved to local authorities—in both of which cases, there will be democratic accountability—or its functions will be carried out outside the state altogether in the private or voluntary sectors.
We have gone through an extensive process to determine the outcome of the review. Our first task was quite simply to identify how many quangos there are and what they do. It may sound absurd but it was and remains incredibly difficult to gain firm information on such bodies. Many do not publish accounts, there is no central list and there are myriad different types all with different statuses. The official list of non-departmental public bodies has 679 bodies, excluding those in Northern Ireland, but that does not include non-ministerial Departments, Government-owned public corporations or trading funds. Our review covered 901 bodies and we believe, but cannot be certain, that that is the true extent of the landscape. I stress that departmental agencies—Executive agencies—are not in the review’s scope. They are directly controlled by Ministers who are accountable to Parliament for what they do.
Once we established the overall lists, each Department went through a rigorous process to determine whether each of its quangos met any of the tests. The list I have published today is not complete but is a work in progress. The House will note that a number of bodies are subject to a longer-term review—for example, the Children’s Commissioner and the Office for Fair Access.
Of the 901 bodies in the review, substantial reforms are proposed for more than half. We propose that 192 should cease to be public bodies at all and that 118 should be merged down into 57 successor bodies, removing wasteful and complicating duplication of effort. Some 171 bodies are proposed for substantial reform while retaining their current status. For those bodies that we are abolishing, I stress that in many cases that does not mean the end of the function. Abolishing the regional development agencies, for example, does not mean that we no longer care about promoting regional business—[Interruption.] The Opposition’s response is very revealing, because it suggests something fundamental about what we are trying to change: the assumption that one can prove that one cares about something only if one sets up a quango. We think that there is a different and a better answer, and that we can promote regional business in a better way.
Since the introduction of RDAs, regional imbalances have become not better, but worse, and the development agencies carried a staggering £212 million in administration costs. We believe that local businesses and local authorities are better placed to decide what they need, not highly paid executives imposed on them by Government. An activity does not need an unaccountable bureaucratic structure to signify its importance; the exact converse is true. If something is important, someone who is elected should make decisions about how it is done. That is why we are bringing a host of functions back into Departments, such as those of the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission and the Renewable Fuels Agency to name but two.
All remaining public bodies will be subject to a rigorous triennial review to ensure that the previous pattern of public bodies often outliving the purpose for which they were established is not repeated. They will be expected to become more open, accountable and efficient. In the new year, I shall outline to the House in more detail the new framework for those remaining quangos.
All proposed changes will be delivered within Departments’ spending review settlements. Those bodies whose status is being retained may be subjected to further reforms following the spending review, in the same way as all other parts of the public sector. I want to acknowledge the dedication and hard work of those who work in public bodies. We are committed to working with the chairs and chief executives of those bodies to ensure that change is conducted as fairly and as smoothly as possible.
To enable the proposed changes to be implemented, the Government will shortly introduce a public bodies Bill, which will give Ministers power to make changes to named statutory bodies. Other forthcoming legislation, such as the education Bill and the localism Bill, will also be used to make changes directly.
I believe that these reforms are the first and necessary step to restoring proper democratic accountability to public life. They signal a complete culture change in government, from one that ducks difficult decisions, is opaque and allows profligacy, inflated salaries and waste, to an Administration who are open and transparent about what they do, with Ministers who take responsibility for their actions and are mindful of every penny of taxpayers’ money. I commend these reforms to the House.
Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)
I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for early sight of his statement—in the Financial Times, The Guardian and The Daily Telegraph this morning. He is a man who appreciates the courtesies of this House, so I know that he will provide you, Mr Speaker, with an explanation of how the media could possibly have been briefed before Members were.
May I, however, start on a note of consensus? I thank the Minister for his work in completing a process that was set in train during my time at the Treasury. In March I told the House that 123 quangos would need to close, and from first glance at this statement it appears that two thirds of the 192 arm’s length bodies that need to close are those that I announced in March. Instead of 20% of quangos being closed, the Minister has announced that 25% will be.
I am grateful, too, that his tests largely confirmed the approach that I set out in March. I welcome his endorsement of the principles of a sunset clause for quangos and of triennial reviews. I am especially grateful for his confirmation of our decision to mutualise British Waterways, which will be an important institution in the third sector that I know we both support.
May I, however, raise the slightly obvious question about the way in which the right hon. Gentleman has conducted this exercise? All of us want to improve accountability—it was one of the three principles that we set out in the ALB review in March—but we also want to save money, and once upon a time I thought that the current Prime Minister agreed, because, in a typically thoughtful and measured intervention, he said in October 2008:
“Sound money means…destroying all these useless quangos and initiatives.”
Now the Minister tells us that the Prime Minister in fact got it wrong. Saving money
“is not the principal objective”,
he told the “Today” programme this morning.
Labour’s plan would have saved £500 billion by 2012-13. Now we are told that the Government’s approach will not in all cases save money at all. In fact, it could cost more money than it saves at the Audit Commission, the RDAs, the UK Film Council, Standards for England and the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. I am afraid that the Minister has become the most expensive butcher in the country. His friend the Chancellor will no doubt be delighted.
Will the Minister, first, set out the total cost of implementing the plan this year and next? He should have those figures at his fingertips now that the review is almost complete. Secondly, can he explain the impact on jobs and unemployment? Organisations such as the UK Film Council help to strengthen industry and tax revenues. What estimate has he made of the impact of his announcement on growth and jobs?
Thirdly, the principle of independence is sometimes important, and I am glad that he acknowledges that, but it is not clear how he has applied it in all cases. For example, we need to hear a little more from the Minister about the Football Licensing Authority. The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport infamously had to apologise for blaming Liverpool fans for the Hillsborough tragedy; now the Government are scrapping the organisation established to ensure that a Hillsborough never happens again, without being clear about what will be put in its place.
Finally, in March I introduced a new principle whereby quangos would be set up only as a last resort. The Minister’s statement confirms his presumption that state activity should be undertaken by bodies that are democratically accountable. His party’s manifesto promised 20 new quangos—one third of the extra quangos that he has abolished today. Will he confirm that those quangos will not go ahead?
Mr Maude
It is very good to have such a consensual approach from the man who famously told the world on leaving government that there was no money left. There will be savings as a result of the process, and there need to be because the right hon. Gentleman was a prominent member of a Government who left office spending £4 for every £3 of revenue. They were having to borrow £1 out of every £4 just to keep the lights on, the teachers in the schools, the pensions being paid and the doctors and nurses in the hospitals. This Government have to clear up the mess that his Government shamefully left behind, and there will be savings from the process.
Mr Maude
We became used to the previous Labour Government bandying around large numbers in respect of the savings that they proposed to make, but we know that when the National Audit Office went around after those much vaunted efficiency exercises over which he and his colleagues presided, it found that in most cases they had not saved money at all. It was all about the optics and trying to make a point; it had nothing to do with reality.
I am sorry to say that jobs will be lost as a result of this process, but, in order to clear up the fiscal mess that the right hon. Gentleman’s Government left behind, that is sadly an inevitability. Savings will be made as a result of the exercise, but, as I said at the outset, it is not principally about saving money, although it will do so. It is principally about increasing accountability—the important presumption that when an activity is carried out by the state, and there is no pressing need to do so at arm’s length from government, it should be carried out by someone who is accountable democratically, either a Minister who is accountable to this House and, through this House, to the public, or a local authority that is accountable to local residents.
It is very good that the right hon. Gentleman agrees with our approach and thinks it sensible. He tried to claim credit for it himself, actually, so, as the various bodies that we have discussed today start to complain, as some will, and as some vested interests will with a very loud voice, I shall be able to tell them that our approach is a consensual one—that the Labour party wants to play its full part in responsibility for the whole exercise.
Mr Speaker
Order. There is a lot of interest and little time, so brevity both from Back Benchers and Front Benchers is vital.
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
How will we be less bossed about and over-regulated as a result of these changes?
Mr Maude
The hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) says, rather regretfully, “Not very much.” It sounds as though he wants us to be more regulated and bossed around—that is somehow in his nature.
The answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) is that some functions will not be carried out at all. The key point is that the presumption will be that where there is a state activity, at least he and the rest of the House will be able to hold a Minister to account for what is done. What people find so irritating is the sense that there has been incontinently set up, in large part by the previous Government, this huge amount of activity by bodies that are in no way accountable: no one can hold them accountable for what they do. That is what we are seeking to change.
Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)
May I first invite the Minister, in the spirit of consensus that we certainly want on this, to show just a tiny bit of humility in recognising that the high point of the unaccountable quango state was under the Major Government, of whom he was, I think, an adornment? At that time, outrageously, as I found when I became Home Secretary, having endured it in opposition, even parliamentary questions to the Secretary of State about prisons were being answered not by a Minister but by the chief executive of the agency concerned. That was preposterous and it happened under a Conservative Government, but we ended it very quickly. I hope that he recognises that the history goes right back to the Major Government.
Secondly, may I ask the Minister a specific question about the Youth Justice Board? I set that up; I accept that it does not have life eternal and that there is a case for reviewing its future. However, will he ensure that as its future is reviewed, its key functions of delivering effective youth justice are preserved?
Mr Maude
It is a pleasure to welcome the right hon. Gentleman into our big tent; it is open to all-comers, and it is a delight to have him as a resident. I think that he confuses the role of Executive agencies with the function of a quango. It seems to me perfectly proper that when Members of Parliament inquire about an activity they receive a reply from the Executive agency’s chief executive. That does not mean that that agency is not accountable to Parliament through what a Minister says and does. The right hon. Gentleman will have found himself, as Home Secretary, directly accountable to this House for those functions.
Some of the functions performed by the Youth Justice Board will continue to be very important, but we take the view that the need for independent oversight of the process has now outlived its usefulness.
Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con)
I am pleased to hear my right hon. Friend say that overall costs will be reduced. A Local Government Association publication of December last year outlined 790 quangos costing £43 billion. How can he ensure that more quangos will not reappear as some disappear?
Mr Maude
I am sure that there will occasionally be a case for new independent bodies coming into existence, but they will need to meet rigorous tests. They will need to show that they are needed to provide a seriously technical function, or that the function has to be carried out in a way that is demonstrably politically impartial, or that they are measuring facts in some way that requires independence. The Office for Budget Responsibility, which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor set up early in the life of this Government, is one such body that meets all those tests. They will have to go through a rigorous process before consent is given to their creation.
Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)
Does the Minister accept that some of these bodies were set up almost as debts of honour? I particularly mention the Football Licensing Authority and the Human Tissue Authority, which were set up respectively after the Hillsborough stadium disaster and the scandal at Alder Hey hospital. Does he accept that a lot of people who were affected by those events will be aghast that that debt of honour has now been reneged on by this Government?
Mr Maude
I hear what the right hon. Gentleman says, and I know how deeply he, and many people, feel about that. Those two events caused a deep scar in the lives and memories of very many people, and they were scars on the life and history of this country. I would simply make this point to him: we should not be setting up bodies, or retaining bodies in existence, merely for symbolic purposes. It will remain important that there is expertise about safety measures in football grounds. That function does not disappear, but it does not necessarily need to have its own separate, unaccountable organisation to dispense it. Similarly, the functions of the Human Tissue Authority can be carried out perfectly properly within the plethora of regulatory bodies in the health sector, to which my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary is rightly applying some reforming rigour.
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
Liberal Democrat Back Benchers welcome the statement on the grounds of cost, improved efficiency and, above all, embarking on dealing with the problem of democratic deficit. However, behind the names of these organisations there are many people genuinely fearful for their jobs. Will the Minister emphasise this line in his statement: “For those bodies that we are abolishing, I should stress that in many cases this does not mean the end of the function”? That is very important, and that reassurance needs to be made to many other people.
On the ending of Consumer Focus and the passing of its responsibilities to citizens advice bureaux, the Minister is aware that there are many concerns about funding for Citizens Advice at a central level. What discussions has he had with his colleagues about enhancing the role of CABs and, indeed, increased funding—
Mr Speaker
I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman, and I will be grateful to the Minister for a brief reply.
Mr Maude
My hon. Friend makes a perfectly proper point about staff. We hope that jobs will not be lost, although some will be; we recognise that every single one is a personal disaster for the family involved. The chief executives of all bodies affected by the changes I am announcing should have communicated with staff this morning to give them as much certainty as possible about the future.
As regards Consumer Focus and consumer activities, the funding implications are being considered by my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary, and results will emerge in due course. We recognise that we cannot just hand these functions over to outside bodies without any resource implications.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
In pursuit of his body count, did the Minister consider the role of the Investigatory Powers Tribunal, which has upheld absolutely no complaints against the security services and has never offered any reason? Its existence is merely a deceit of scrutiny to mask the conceit of unaccountable, secret powers. Has he found any more faceless, toothless or spineless creatures in the ecosystem of government?
Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)
In Gosport, we face the prospect that our outstanding Navy engineering training school at HMS Sultan will move to St Athan in Wales under a massive and unnecessarily expensive private finance initiative. What will happen to some of the other outrageous PFIs that quangos have entered into, such as the National School of Government?
Mr Maude
As we spend more time in government and pick up stones, we find quite a lot of contracts in place that make one wonder a bit about the diligence that Ministers took in exploring them at the time. Going through the detail of contracts is not necessarily the most amusing way to spend one’s life, but it is rather important because there is a lot of public money involved; the body to which my hon. Friend refers is one such example.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
Will the Minister say what will happen to the functions of the Football Licensing Authority and who will give its world-class advice on safety? That issue is of high importance to my constituents and to many others around the country.
Mr Maude
The FLA does not license football grounds, of course. That responsibility rests in all cases with local authorities, which will continue to exercise that incredibly important function. The central expertise to support the licensing activity could exist in a number of bodies, such as the Health and Safety Executive, or the Football Association could provide it. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport will explore all those options.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
I congratulate the Minister on the speed with which he has taken forward the review and this activity. [Interruption.] Well, it was completely ducked by the Labour Government. What further steps is he taking to give the remaining public bodies an increased focus on effectiveness and value for money, which is much needed as part of the culture changes set out in his statement?
Mr Maude
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks. In my written statement and the list attached it, we have identified 40 bodies that are still under review, in many cases because a formal review has been launched but has not yet reached its end. The Chancellor’s comprehensive spending review, which I believe he will announce to the House next Wednesday, will set out the spending envelopes for all remaining bodies and place them under considerable financial rigour. For those that remain independent bodies there will be more transparency, which we have already started with the disclosure of higher salaries above £150,000. That has raised a number of questions about how those bodies are run.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
Some of the most vulnerable people in Wrexham work at the local Remploy factory. What kind of Government is it who include two words—“under consideration”—about their jobs, and what consultation is the Department for Work and Pensions undertaking with people whose jobs the Government are threatening?
Mr Maude
To put it bluntly to the hon. Gentleman, it is a Government who are having to clear up an appalling mess left by his party, which left office spending £4 for every £3 in revenue. This coalition Government are having to reduce and eliminate a budget deficit that was created by his party with gross irresponsibility. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is undertaking a serious review of the future status of Remploy, and is very much aware of its good work and the valuable employment that it provides for many disabled people.
Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)
Quango is not a description usually associated with the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. If it is not on the Minister’s culling list, will he please consider putting it in there? This morning, IPSA refused to refund the cost of an advertisement for an advice bureau for my constituents. Is that not an affront to the House? Perhaps the Minister would like to invite Sir Philip Green to take over IPSA. I am pretty sure that the backroom staff of Topshop could do a far better job.
Mr Maude
I have been invited to go down that path before, and I am a cautious fellow so I shall resist the temptation to do so. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his endorsement of the approach that Sir Philip Green has taken in helping the Government pick up a number of stones to find out exactly what is crawling around underneath.
David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab)
The Minister is proposing to merge UK Sport and Sport England, which do quite distinct jobs—there is a clue in their titles. From his existential ruminations, will he tell me how he proposes to guarantee that elite athletes in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, who are getting magnificent support from UK Sport in the run-up to the Olympic games, are not disadvantaged by what is effectively a takeover by Sport England, which understandably has a quite different focus?
Mr Maude
This is cross-Government activity, and the review has taken place across the Government. The hon. Gentleman will find that my right hon. Friends in charge of other Departments will make statements publicly today, and then he can pursue the matter. Of course the two organisations have different focuses, but they none the less cover a lot of the same ground. Having two separate lots of unproductive overheads when one set could do the job just as well does not seem a good way to spend taxpayers’ money.
Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)
I commend the Minister for his statement. Does he agree that the problem with quangos is not just their cost but their effectiveness? Competition law is vital for a free market, but having three regulatory bodies—the Office of Fair Trading, the Competition Commission and the European Commission—has made business more bureaucratic and regulation less effective. When Lloyds bought HBOS, the OFT’s competition concerns were brushed aside with a wink and a nudge from the last Prime Minister at a cocktail party. Does the Minister agree that that is a good example of how less overlapping bureaucracy can mean more independent and robust regulation?
Mr Maude
My hon. Friend is completely right. The way in which the competition scrutiny process, which is really important for an effective economy, currently works can be very complex, confused and slow. If we can simplify it by merging competition functions into one place, as we propose, there will be a benefit for the economy and for business and it will assist in creating jobs, which will be really important.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
I noted with interest that the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission was one of the bodies to be brought back within the Government tent. Of course, it has not been subject to the same lack of public confidence as the Child Support Agency suffered for many years. How can the Minister guarantee that the stakeholders whose interests are put at the heart of the CMEC’s functions within Government are parents and, crucially, children, and not primarily the state, as was the case with the CSA?
Mr Maude
I suppose the short answer to the hon. Lady is that this Government believe that Ministers should make themselves available to be held to account for what is done in their name. I understand that the previous Government preferred not to do that and set up independent bodies to carry out important functions. The child maintenance function does not meet any of the three tests that I set out. It obviously needs to exist, but it does not need to be politically impartial, and indeed Ministers should be ready to be held to account for it.
Richard Harrington (Watford) (Con)
I very much welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement. Contrary to what the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) said, I have found that in the case of a quango that I have been dealing with, the UK Film Council, the industry is delighted that in future it will have direct access to Government instead of having to go through a third party. My concern, however, is that the same people who are working in such quangos will simply become Government employees. What measures will he take to ensure that that does not happen?
Mr Maude
I suppose from my hon. Friend’s point of view the bad news is that many of them will become Government employees, but in those circumstances Ministers will be held responsible for what they do. I make no apology for restating that the principal purpose of the review is to increase accountability. The fact that someone becomes a civil servant employed directly by a Government Department rather than by a public body will make them more accountable, not less. We will be able to drive value for money and effectiveness much better.
Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)
On the same subject, the Minister did not respond to the question that my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) asked about the UK Film Council. I declare an interest: I co-chaired with Stewart Till of Universal the review “A Bigger Picture”, which led to the formation of the council. I am sure the Minister would agree that since that time, there has been a huge renaissance of the British film industry. How can it be considered achievable and accountable to switch responsibilities from the council to the British film industry, and how can he say that we will have access to more transparency?
Mr Maude
I treat what the right hon. Gentleman says with great respect, because I know that he has a long background in the film industry. He is passionate about it and has done a huge amount in the course of his illustrious career to support it, but I take issue with his central contention. The implication of what he sets forth is that the excellent renaissance of the British film industry is somehow inextricably linked with the creation of the UK Film Council, but the creativity of the people who make films delivered that. I find that there has been a mixed response to the announcement that the UK Film Council will be abolished, which was made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport back in July. Very many eminent people in the film industry say that the UK Film Council’s work was not central to the great success of the British film industry, but marginal in many cases.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that hard-working taxpayers in my constituency will be glad that their taxes will no longer subsidise regional bureaucrats and quangos in the east of England? Does he also agree that that work could be done much better by local federations of small businesses and chambers of commerce, and that the new local enterprise partnerships should be lean and mean?
Mr Maude
I am confident that they will be, because they will be under much closer local control. Local business organisations will contribute to them and local authorities, which are of course democratically accountable, will influence them. The fact is that regional development agencies did not contribute to narrowing the regional imbalances in our economy. In fact, those imbalances got worse and not better when the agencies existed over the lifetime of the previous Labour Government. This Government believe that support for local and regional businesses that is focused more locally and that is more locally accountable is likely to deliver greater success.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
There is great concern in the field of health about the impact of the changes in loss of expertise, which we will examine closely in the coming days and weeks. Would the Minister today like to give a guarantee on the Floor of the House that there will be absolutely no loss of expertise?
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
How will the Minister ensure that quangos handed back to the Government do not generate more costly parliamentary questions?
Mr Maude
The number of parliamentary questions generated is not a matter of where functions sit within government, but generally a matter of how many questions my hon. Friend and other colleagues in the House ask. If bodies become more democratically accountable through the House, they will be subject to more parliamentary questions—by definition—but it seems to me that that is a good thing and not a bad thing. That is what accountability is about.
Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab)
Now that the much-vaunted bonfire of the quangos has turned into a clammy Sunday afternoon barbecue, may I congratulate the Minister on his plans for British Waterways? He seems to be taking exactly the right approach, but we await information on the allocation of property assets.
What do the Government plan to do with the National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts? May I also urge the Minister to encourage his right hon. Friend the Work and Pensions Secretary to hurry up in sorting out the future of the Independent Living Fund, because that is causing real concern to my constituents?
Mr Maude
I am sure my right hon. Friend the Work and Pensions Secretary will have heard the hon. Gentleman’s last point and I know that he is addressing the matter with urgency. I welcome the hon. Gentleman into the big tent as far as the British Waterways Board is concerned. That is a good route to follow.
The hon. Gentleman also asked about the future of NESTA, which will become an independent endowment outside the Government. When the Bill that set it up went through the House, I was the Opposition spokesman, and I urged that it should be set up as a wholly independent endowment that is outside, and not in any way subject to the whim of, the Government.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Although I welcome the proposal for a triennial review of the remaining quangos, can my right hon. Friend confirm that if it becomes clear that a quango no longer serves a useful purpose, it will be abolished immediately, without waiting for the completion of the three-year review?
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
Going through the list of quangos in the Department of Health, I can see the logic of pooling some of their regulatory functions. However, the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority provided more than regulatory functions; it also provided the forum for some very tricky ethical debates, without which the previous Parliament would have been unable to pass some of the legislation on such matters, because debates would have polarised along political or religious lines. Can the Minister assure me where that function of that authority now lies? Will he reconsider that change? The Health Secretary will have heard that as well because he has just arrived in the Chamber.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
As my right hon. Friend will know, the Oxford canal goes right through the heart of my constituency. Waterway users generally will welcome the opportunities provided by the setting up of a new waterways trust. However, the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) made an important point when he asked what happens to existing British Waterways assets. Will they be transferred to a new waterways trust? Presumably, in this as in any other aspect of my right hon. Friend’s statement, Secretaries of State for the Departments concerned will be willing to answer written parliamentary questions about the detail of such matters. The changes provide an enormous opportunity for civil society to engage in the running and maintenance of our waterways.
Mr Maude
My hon. Friend is completely right on that. Secretaries of State will indeed be willing to answer detailed questions on exactly those issues. On many of the changes, complicated questions arise on the ownership of assets and where they will end up. The public bodies Bill will provide a power by secondary legislation to deal with asset distribution, and I am confident that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will have heard my hon. Friend’s concerns about British Waterways Board assets.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
I have heard the Minister say a number of times that if something is important, Ministers ought to take decisions on it and to be accountable. In that context, does he believe that consumer protection and a consumer voice are important? If so, why has he chosen specifically to abolish Consumer Focus and to transfer its functions to Citizens Advice? The latter is a worthy organisation, but it surely has enough to do in coping with the increasing demands for advice that result directly from the Government’s welfare reforms.
Mr Maude
The short point is that citizens advice bureaux carry a high degree of trust with citizens. They exist locally and are well supported, and they manage to mobilise very large amounts of voluntary activity. We must get away from the slightly outdated idea that to show that we care about something very much, we must set up a quango to express it.
Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)
Will the Minister join me in welcoming the complete abolition of the Union Modernisation Fund Supervisory Board, which wasted hard-earned taxpayers’ money holding secret meetings in expensive hotels? It effectively handed taxpayers’ money to the trade unions. Will he give an assurance that he will take action to prevent such abuses of taxpayers’ money from happening in again?
Mr Maude
We have not taken a decision on the future of the Union Modernisation Fund itself, but my hon. Friend raises genuine concerns about the way in which the supervisory body operated. In the previous Parliament, I asked a number of questions about the publication of its minutes, but somewhat to my surprise I discovered that no such minutes were kept. That is the epitome of unaccountability and lack of transparency, which is exactly what I am seeking to address.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
The decision to strangle at birth the chief coroners office will be viewed with dismay by many organisations, including the Royal British Legion, which campaigned for it to improve the coroners service. Can he explain why the Opposition supported the proposal during consideration of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009, but now they are in government they wish to abolish the office?
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)
I am looking forward to warming my hands in front of the bonfire of the quangos, with 192 on the flames. Can my right hon. Friend confirm how many quangos were abolished under the last Administration?
Mr Maude
I have learned to treat the claims made by the last Government with some scepticism, because they often claimed to have got rid of things, but on closer scrutiny they turned out to be merely resting, not defunct. I do not know whether this is a bonfire or, in the term used by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt), a damp Sunday afternoon barbecue, but we should not knock barbecues.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister talked, both in his statement and in answer to questions, about exorbitant pay in quangos and the public sector. Would it not add force to his argument if he and his colleagues also talked about exorbitant pay in the private sector? On the transfer of employees from quangos back to the public services, I seek reassurance that their pay and conditions will be protected in that process.
Mr Maude
There is a bit of a difference between pay in the private sector and pay in the public sector—[Interruption.] The fact that the hon. Gentleman finds it difficult to make the distinction tells us a lot about the mentality behind the last Government. In the public sector, it is taxpayers’ money that is being spent and Ministers have a responsibility to ensure that it is well spent. The fact that they did not is one of the reasons why we are now facing the scale of budget deficit that we are. The transparency that we have applied to pay in the quangos has meant that people have been shocked to find out how profligate some of the pay has been.
On the transfer of staff into the civil service, the terms and conditions will of course be transferred according to the TUPE rules, as the hon. Gentleman would expect.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
In a previous existence, I was a leader of a local authority, and three things got in the way of effectiveness—an increasing lack of democratic authority; an over-burdensome inspection regime; and a lack of funding. All three of those problems often stemmed from the existence of far too many quangos. I seek an assurance from my right hon. Friend that functions presently carried out by quangos that are to be abolished will be devolved to the local level.
Mr Maude
Wherever possible, that is our preference. We believe in localism and in trusting local authorities to take responsibility for what they do. Our commitment to localism does not only mean devolving to local authorities. In the case of consumer functions, for example, we think that devolving beyond local authorities to citizens advice bureaux is potentially a better approach. However, I can confirm our preference to devolve powers to as close to the front line of where citizens use services as possible.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
Does the proposal to abolish Consumer Focus and transfer its functions to citizens advice bureaux mean that in the coalition’s big society a consumer and a citizen are one and the same thing?
Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)
Current legislation requires Departments to get the best possible price for Government assets such as furniture, computers and other items. As part of the big society agenda, will the Minister consider whether donations could be made or other disposal routes used to support voluntary organisations, charities and other bodies that are being squeezed at the moment and could make good use of those resources?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
I thank hon. Members and Ministers. A great many Members managed to ask short pithy questions on the statement and the answers were also short.
Points of Order
Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The last century has seen changes to this House, almost all of which have been to the advantage of the Executive and the disadvantage of Back Benchers. One change that has improved that situation has been the allowance of time for Back-Bench debates. I know that the Government’s amendment on the Order Paper today has not been selected, but it would have had the effect of removing the entire motion except for the first three words, and that would be a very bad trend. Can you ask Mr Speaker to look at this issue, consider what would be appropriate in terms of amending Back-Bench motions and make it clear to both Front Benches that such debates are not a second-class Opposition day?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
I remind the House that the amendment has not been selected and that Mr Speaker always considers carefully the question of whether to select an amendment. He takes all the relevant factors into account and I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will be reassured that Mr Speaker will continue to do that with the vigilance that he has demonstrated to date.
The Comptroller of Her Majesty's Household (Mr Alistair Carmichael)
Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am grateful for your assistance on that matter, but I have had regard to the terms of page 397 of the 23rd edition of “Erskine May” and—while I would of course not seek in any way to challenge the authority of Mr Speaker or the decision that he has made in exercise of that authority today—I struggle to find a precedent for his decision not to select the Secretary of State’s amendment today. I am sure that it would be of enormous assistance to the House—
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman is challenging the selection decisions of Mr Speaker and that is not in order. I have made it absolutely clear that Mr Speaker has taken the decision on the selection of amendments today taking into consideration all of the relevant factors, and he does not require prompting from the Front Bench on this matter.
Madam Deputy Speaker
It had better be further to that point of order rather than persistence in challenging the decision on selection.
Mr Carmichael
I wish to place on record beyond peradventure that I do not seek to challenge in any way the decision that has been made. I merely seek your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker, or possibly at some later stage the guidance of Mr Speaker himself, as to what new considerations are apparently taken into account in making these decisions.
Madam Deputy Speaker
The hon. Gentleman knows full well that the selection of amendments is not discussed on the Floor of the House. They are a matter for Mr Speaker, having taken into consideration all the relevant factors, which he is perfectly capable of doing. I am sure that he will note the points that have been made today, but no further points can be made to question or challenge the decision by Mr Speaker on this matter. I intend now to make progress with the business.
Bill Presented
National Insurance Contributions Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, supported by the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, Secretary Vince Cable, Mr Secretary Duncan Smith, Mr Mark Prisk, Mr Mark Hoban, Mr David Gauke and Justine Greening, presented a Bill to make provision for and in connection with increasing rates of national insurance contributions and a regional secondary Class 1 contributions holiday for new businesses.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 79) with explanatory notes (Bill 79-EN).
Backbench Business
Contaminated Blood and Blood Products
(14 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
16:08 - The House divided: - Ayes: 44 / Noes: 285 - Question accordingly negatived.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
As Members will have noticed—I shall remind the House again—Mr Speaker has not selected the amendment.
Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House recalls that the catastrophic problems of infected blood supplied by the NHS date back to the 1970s and 1980s, infecting 4,670 patients and causing what Lord Winston described as the worst treatment disaster in the history of the NHS; notes that successive administrations only very partially responded to this catastrophe by setting up and funding the MacFarlane Trust, the Skipton Fund and the Eileen Trust; regrets the past refusal to accept the principal recommendation of the Independent Public Inquiry into the supply of contaminated NHS blood to haemophilia patients, chaired by Lord Archer and established and financed by private initiative and funds, relating to compensation for the victims and set out in paragraph 6(h) of chapter 12 of the Archer Report; further notes that earlier this year the reasons for rejecting this recommendation were challenged successfully in the High Court, which quashed the decision; believes that this ruling constitutes an appropriate moment for the present Government, which bears no responsibility for the inadequate and misjudged policies of successive previous administrations, to extend an apology to the surviving 2,700 sufferers, their families and the bereaved; and calls on the Government to alleviate their intense hardship and suffering by accepting and implementing the recommendations of the Archer Report despite the intense financial pressure on the public purse at this time.
I would like to say a few things by way of preliminary background to this debate, some of which may reflect on the interchanges we have just had on the amendment. Opposition Back-Bench Members, and many Government Members, are pleased that the whole idea behind the initiative on Back-Bench business and the excellent Committee established to promote it is that Back-Bench Members should have the ability to move substantive motions on the Floor of the House on which they can vote. That is what, in effect, we have secured today. Not only would the amendment, had it been chosen, have wrecked the whole substance and heart of the motion, but it would have wrecked the intention behind the Backbench Business Committee.
I thank the Chairman of the Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) and the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), both of whom were good enough, in their wisdom, to select the bid made initially by my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), who, of course, is now a member of the shadow Government, and is therefore unable to move the motion today. He has kindly asked me to pick up the baton, which I am honoured to do, and we therefore have the opportunity today to debate a substantive motion on the Floor of the House.
The Government have missed a huge opportunity. In drafting the motion, I placed great emphasis on making it an all-party motion reflecting the views of every Member of the House in a balanced way, and it has commanded the support of the victims of what was the “worst treatment disaster”—as it was described by Lord Winston, whose mother was, I think, terribly hurt in this way—in the history of the NHS. As the motion makes clear, the coalition Government bear no responsibility for the maladministration, the misjudgment and the inadequate judgments of previous Administrations.
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
Does that not make it more significant that the Government, who had no responsibility for this situation, tried to move a wrecking amendment that would have totally sabotaged what my hon. Friend is trying to achieve on behalf of the people concerned?
Mr Robinson
My hon. Friend is, of course, absolutely right. I am very pleased to welcome the Secretary of State to the debate, because it gives it prominence and substance. The Backbench Business Committee has a real role to play—we have had a good debate on Afghanistan too. However, I saw the Secretary of State shake his head to say that the amendment is not a wrecking amendment. None the less, those of us who attended a meeting yesterday with the victims of blood contamination were hoping for an amendment that we could support, and he could have done something about that.
The Secretary of State bears no responsibility for what has happened. The NHS supplied contaminated blood. I will not go into individual cases, except for one in my own constituency, which I have been following ever since the victim first approached me many years ago. This goes back to the mid-1970s, to the Callaghan and Wilson Labour Governments and to the Thatcher Government, and, of course, to the subsequent response to those ill-advised, inadequate judgments, made mostly by officials or under their strong advice—clearly that is the case in these cases—from the last Government principally, although it even pre-dates them to some extent. We are not trying to blame the present coalition Government, but there are things that they could have done, the cost of which would have fallen well short of the £3 billion that will allegedly be the cost of implementing the Archer report.
As hon. Members will recall, the Archer report was set up under the Blair Government—in 1997-98, I think—at which time I was at the Treasury. People put it to me, “You were at the Treasury at the time. Why didn’t you do something?” We did not have the report then. We had made papers available. It was a privately funded and excellent report, which I commend to all Members, but we did not know what it was going to recommend. Unfortunately, I left the Treasury before I was confronted with the implications of the report. However, under the last two Labour Administrations, there were ample opportunities for us to respond more fully, generously and comprehensively, in human terms, to the suffering of the victims.
This was an unparalleled disaster in NHS treatment history involving thoroughly blameless individuals. I met one yesterday—a gentleman from Doncaster—who had been knifed, rushed to the accident and emergency department at Rotherham and given two pints of blood, from which he subsequently contracted HIV/AIDS and hepatitis C. He is now totally incapacitated, and has been asked to live, after capital payments of £25,000—of great value, of course, but not enormous—on £107 a week.
The Government could have said, “Well, we know there is a problem with, for example, the Skipton Fund, so we will take some steps to move that up towards the level of what the previous Administration made available—inadequate though it was—in respect of HIV/AIDS.”
Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr Robinson
In a moment, yes.
The Government could have done that, but they did not. All we now have is their sad, tragic adoption of what previous Government’s did. That is a great pity, a great sadness, and does not reflect well on them. When they reflect on the matter, they will come to think that they should have handled the matter very differently.
Had the Government proposed what I have suggested, which would have cost a minimum amount—nothing like the sums talked about now—we could have voted for it and then, at 4.30 pm, when this debate ends, gone back to meet the victims in Committee Room 14 and told them that this Government have finally broken with the previous, inadequate and ill-judged consensus and reaction. We have never asked them to take responsibility. However, they could also have extended a gesture of an apology, which the victims are also looking for. Sadly, however, the Government have, in effect, done nothing but take on the same old weary mantle that we have seen for the last 20 years. They are already getting tired: they have lost their verve and the ability to respond energetically and imaginatively to situations. It is very sad.
Mr Robinson
I promised to give way first to the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie).
Charlotte Leslie
I appreciate the tone, spirit and intended outcome of what the hon. Gentleman is trying to do. As a newcomer to the House, however, may I ask what, over the past 13 years, he did to encourage the previous Government to deliver payments I believe should have been made? At that time, the public finances were not in such a diabolical state and compensation would have been much easier to give.
Mr Robinson
Unfortunately, the hon. Lady is trying to inject a party position into this debate, which those of us who have been involved in it have tried to exclude from it. We have said that past responses were inadequate and ill-judged—it says that in the motion. I regret that we did not deal with the matter, and I like to think that had I remained at the Treasury, I could have done something. I am open about that too; we all ought to be open here. However, those who say that I, as a former Treasury Minister, should appreciate our legacy are missing the central point: there will never be a good time to do something like this. There will always be bureaucratic arguments, and precedent arguments, and arguments we cannot foresee now but which will one day be made, for why we should do nothing, and the Government have caved into them. That is the reality.
Lorraine Fullbrook (South Ribble) (Con)
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman agrees that this is a horrendously tragic occurrence. Many haemophiliacs have been affected by this as well, both mentally and physically, and we need to work together and all recognise the dreadful situation that these people find themselves in.
Mr Robinson
I am pleased that the hon. Lady has joined the debate and agrees with us. Of course, haemophiliacs have also been affected. The ironic tragedy there is that the treatments given were meant to deal with the basic underlying condition of the haemophilia. I will mention the name of one victim, given that he is a constituent of mine—I am sure that many other Members will mention constituents of theirs too. Given that 4,670 initial cases were affected, and given that there are 650 constituencies, nearly every constituency must have had at least one tragic occurrence. I will therefore mention Joseph Peaty. He is a haemophiliac who went for treatment to correct his underlying condition, but because of the contaminated blood products, he acquired both HIV/AIDS and hepatitis C. He is watching this debate and looking for us to offer victims something more. There is no way we could accept the amendment.
Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the real tragedy, especially for haemophiliacs, is that it is not just individuals who are affected, but whole families? The condition runs in the family, so two or three family members could be affected. The fact that people are living with such stress as a result of failure of successive Governments to tackle the issue is something that this House should totally condemn. We must take a decision today, and not allow the issue to slip further down the agenda.
Mr Robinson
I agree entirely with my hon. Friend, who makes a most poignant and correct intervention, if I may say so. We had a unique opportunity. The issue had moved right up in the public’s awareness. The sort of thing that we get in these debates is everybody saying how terrible it is, but then heaving a sigh of relief that they have not been affected, and on we go. The months and years drag by, and so the number comes down, from 4,600 to 2,700. Perhaps not many will be affected, but as my hon. Friend said, the nature of the diseases is that they spread, and the suffering will continue long after most of us have left this House.
Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. At the end of the 1980s, I worked with someone called Colin, who had been injured abroad, had a blood transfusion and got haemophilia. He then returned to the UK for ongoing treatment, but ended up getting contaminated blood and dying from HIV at the beginning of the 1990s. It is for people such as Colin that we are here today. This is not a partisan issue; it is an issue that we should have dealt with in the past 13 years—it should have been dealt with before that—but let us deal with it now.
Mr Robinson
I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s intervention, which I wholly accept and entirely agree with.
Mr Robinson
The hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms) has been very persistent, so I will give way to him and then to my right hon. Friend, but if the House will forgive me, thereafter I want to get on, because we have limited time and I have agreed to keep my opening remarks to the minimum
Mr Syms
This is an important issue for so many families and people affected. I am not sure whether the motion will be agreed to today—that depends on the vote a little later—but the important thing is to make progress. The Government have said in their statement that they will undertake a review of the Archer report, which is good. However, we ought to be pressing them a little further, so that hon. Members such as the hon. Gentleman and I can be part of that review, lobbying Ministers and having meetings with them. Should he not be suggesting to those on the Treasury Bench that some of us ought to be in the Department of Health discussing the matter further?
Mr Robinson
I will give way to my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) and respond to both questions immediately afterwards.
Mr George Howarth
I am grateful to my hon. Friend and congratulate him on the measured way in which he is conducting this debate. Does he agree that in every generation there are two or three major injustices that have to be addressed? They cannot always be pinned on to a given Government, but this issue is one of those injustices, and we have to put it right now.
Mr Robinson
I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend—this is indeed a good moment to do that—but sadly I disagree with the hon. Member for Poole, because we have had reviews.
In passing, let me make a positive reference to a former colleague in the Government at the time. As I understand it, the previous Secretary of State for Health—my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham)—opened up one aspect of the issue, through the Skipton Fund in particular, although if I am wrong and the Minister wants to correct me, I should be only too happy to take an interjection from her. He did that last year to see whether there was any way of increasing Skipton to the levels of HIV/AIDS compensation—that proposal was put to me forcefully at meetings with the victims yesterday, and I am sure. that it will be again when we meet them at 4.30 pm If we could do that, it would be a step forward and we would feel that we were going in the right direction. If the Minister wants to tell me that that is the case, I would be very pleased to hear that.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anne Milton)
I have to ask the hon. Gentleman whether he has read the written ministerial statement, because at the end it points out that we will be reviewing certain aspects.
Mr Robinson
That is my whole point: “We will be reviewing.” This has been going on for a year already. Who can put his hand on his heart and honestly say that anything more will come out of the review than we have already had? Nobody with any experience of this House or how Government works can say that. Today is the moment.
Anne Milton
I have to ask again whether the hon. Gentleman has read the written ministerial statement. I have said that I will look at certain aspects and I will report by Christmas, because I am acutely aware that campaigners on the issue have been left hanging for far too long.
Mr Robinson
Very good, but let me say this to the Minister, who is obviously genuinely concerned about the issue, as all Ministers have been. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley said, there are always two or three big issues, and this is certainly one of them, so we wait to hear. [Interruption.] The Minister should not tell us that we have not read the statement; we spent all yesterday trying to get a copy of the amendment, which seemed to be in the ether somewhere. Indeed, I asked her to e-mail me a copy yesterday at about 6 pm, but we could not see it even then. I have referred to the statement, which I think is useless, but why is it not referred to in the wording that is before the House? She did not want it there because it would carry more weight.
Mr Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)
If the hon. Gentleman has read the ministerial statement, before coming here and pouring scorn on the Front Bench, can he say which of the recommendations in the statement he agrees with?
Mr Robinson
I am not terribly interested in a statement in the Commons Library; I am interested in what is said—[Interruption.] I will tell hon. Members why: we have been through that already. It was clear what was said at questions—[Interruption.] I am amazed that hon. Members can behave like that. Do they not realise that it is what is said at the Dispatch Box that counts, and that what counts is what the Government are prepared to do? We have had umpteen statements about reviews, and so have the victims. I invite the hon. Gentleman and the Minister to join me immediately after this debate, at 4.30 pm, in Committee Room 14 to meet the victims and see what reaction they get. Let us just see. Let him wave his hands at them and say, “We’re going to review this.” The victims want closure. They are fed up: they have been sentenced to long, lingering and wretched death sentences by successive Administrations.
This Government had an opportunity to make a new start and bring closure to this great human tragedy, but they have refused to do so. For that reason, we are very pleased indeed—I am particularly pleased, as the mover of the motion—that Mr Speaker has called the motion and that we can vote on it. I urge Government Members to vote with us, in an attempt to shame all those, in all parts of the House, who have had sufferers in their constituencies, yet will not stand with us in this important Division. We will therefore press the motion to a vote in due course, and I hope that all Members present will vote for it.
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. May I remind hon. Members that Mr Speaker has set a time limit on speeches of five minutes? That does not mean that every Member has to take all their five minutes. Some 24 or more Members wish to participate in this important debate, so I ask you all to help your colleagues out by making your points succinctly, so that we can get in as many speakers as possible.
Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Will you confirm that if Members take interventions during those five minutes, they will be given penalty time?
Madam Deputy Speaker
I can confirm that the normal procedure for interventions and compensation time apply to those five minutes. I hope that that is clear.
Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) on bringing this important, sensitive and emotive issue before the House. I congratulate him also on the tone—until perhaps the last couple of minutes of his speech—in which he moved the motion. He was absolutely right that this is not a question of the coalition defending its record; it is a question of the hon. Gentleman bringing a substantive proposition before the House for it to decide on.
In those circumstances,I would suggest to the hon. Gentleman and the House that it is more than usually important that Members who vote on the motion understand precisely what its implications are. He had a lot to say—all of which I agree with—about the human tragedy, the system failure and the slow response of successive Governments over 25 years. That is not in dispute. Sadly, however, I shall not be supporting the hon. Gentleman in the Lobby, because of the part of the motion that says that this House
“regrets the past refusal to accept the principal recommendation of the Independent Public Inquiry…relating to compensation for the victims and set out in paragraph 6(h)…of the”
inquiry report.
What the hon. Gentleman describes as the “principal recommendation” of the report is at the heart of the motion. The House must therefore understand precisely what that recommendation says, which is:
“We suggest that payments should be at least the equivalent of those payable under the Scheme which applies at any time in Ireland.”
Let us be clear what has actually happened in the evolution of policy on this subject. The previous Government accepted many of the other recommendations in the Archer report, but they explicitly refused to accept the recommendation that the compensation payments should be aligned with at least the level payable in Ireland. We are advised by the Government that payments at such a level would cost the Treasury about £3 billion. There is no controversy around the history of these matters or the emotion involved, or about how we got to where we are, but the House is being asked to accept that we should commit the Government to spending £3 billion on aligning our compensation payments with those currently payable in Ireland.
Mr Robinson
We set out the motion in those terms because that was very much what the victims wanted. However, the Government had the opportunity to respond with a constructive amendment, rather than a wrecking amendment that has no substance and takes not a single step towards our aims, even in relation to the Skipton Fund. We cannot accept that. We wanted a good amendment that we could vote for and unite around, so that the motion could have stood, as amended, in a progressive way that would have allowed us to step forward. Because the Government did not give us such an amendment, however, we are back where we were. We could not, in all honesty, let the victims down, which is why I was forced to move the motion as it stands.
Mr Dorrell
I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point. It is not for me to comment on the way in which the negotiations between him and the Government proceeded, but unfortunately, that is not the question on which the House is being asked to decide. I return to the proposition that today is different from normal political days in the House, because the House is being asked to make a decision. It is being asked to decide whether the Government should be committed to align compensation payments with those currently payable in Ireland, and I do not agree with that proposition. I shall vote against it—albeit with a heavy heart, because I accept much of what the hon. Gentleman has said about the context and the history of these matters. The motion is not about the context and the history, however; it is about what happens next. In the week before the comprehensive spending review, it would not be sensible to agree to the commitment of £3 billion to align our arrangements with those in Ireland.
Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the right hon. Gentleman, with all his ministerial experience, accept that the House—individual Back Benchers and Ministers—is being asked to consider the human impact and the ways in which that can be alleviated? Individuals and families have been devastated by the impact of contaminated blood—not only the medical impact but the social impact and the undermining of family confidence. Can we focus on that in coming to a decision in the debate?
Mr Dorrell
I absolutely agree with a huge amount of what the right hon. Gentleman says. That is why I believe that the proposal made by my hon. Friend the Minister offers a sensible way forward. I said earlier that I agreed with much of what the hon. Member for Coventry North West said, until he got to the last couple of minutes of his speech, when the Minister asked him whether he was prepared to sign up to the terms of reference of what the Government propose to do if, as I hope, the House rejects his motion. The Government are proposing to set up not a committee to think about this matter in the abstract, but a specific inquiry to report before the end of the year. The inquiry will review
“the level of ex gratia payments made to those affected by hepatitis C”
and—this will answer the point raised earlier—take into account the comparison with ex-gratia payments made in the UK to those infected with HIV. It will also review
“the mechanisms by which all ex-gratia payments are made”,
which was a specific recommendation in the Archer report. It will consider the provision for insurance—which has also been widely discussed in this context—and the issue of prescription charging, which Archer also recommended. It will also review the provision of and access to
“nursing and other care services in the community”
for those affected.
I assume that Government are not asking the House to reject the motion and simply carry on as though nothing had happened; I certainly will not do so. We all accept the context, but I would ask the House to consider carefully whether, instead of committing £3 billion to aligning our payments with those of Ireland, a better proposal would be to set up the review that the Minister recommends in her written statement, with the terms of reference that I have just outlined, in order better to meet the pressures that the hon. Member for Coventry North West rightly says are a human tragedy to which the House should respond.
Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)
I have a great regard for the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), but if there had been an alternative to the motion tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson), that would have been helpful to us in the debate.
Mr Geoffrey Robinson
On that point, if the Government intend to do what they have outlined in their written statement, why did they not table an amendment to that effect? Why did they squirrel the information away in a statement in the Library? The right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) is long enough in the tooth to know that they have not deliberately done it like this, but had they tabled such an amendment, incorporating their statement, we would have been very inclined to vote for it—
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. Interventions must be interventions; the hon. Gentleman must not make another speech.
Mr Clarke
I feel that there ought to be more humility on both sides of the House as we debate this matter, and I hope that I shall be able to exercise some myself. This issue has not been properly dealt with by Governments of all shades for a quarter of a century. It is amazing, but this is our first debate on the subject in a quarter of a century. I welcome the debate, and as the motion tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West is the only practical proposal before the House, I shall take pride in voting for it. I have held a number of responsibilities myself, including that of shadow spokesperson on disability. The hon. Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) asked earlier what had been done so far, and the answer is: not enough.
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that this Government came into office only about five months ago, and that they are trying to get a lot of things sorted out? I am not blaming the right hon. Gentleman, but I am trying to explain what is happening. To wait for two or three months longer for this important decision is a small price to pay, and I do not understand why he and the hon. Member for Coventry North West are worried about waiting for three months, because that is the difference between the proposal in the motion and what the Government are proposing.
Mr Clarke
Indeed, a lot of people in the Haemophilia Society and other supporters of my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West are genuinely looking forward to what the Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for Guildford (Anne Milton) is going to offer them before Christmas.
That said, I want to go on to talk about one of my constituents, with whom I had a discussion yesterday. The House has to accept its responsibilities on these matters, including its responsibilities for delay after delay, even though evidence has been available. We have not given a response to the people who are suffering very gravely. We are talking about a number of people dying, families bereft of their members and the impact of not having acted previously. There is the issue of not having proper regard to the blood we are using. Then there is the use of American blood from we know not where, and now the decision taken not to use UK blood because we think there might be an element leading to new variant CJD. Frankly, a degree of incompetence is evident, which people interested in our debate will find hugely unacceptable.
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)
My right hon. Friend talked about American blood from we know not where. The tragedy is that we do know where much of it came from. It was from paid donors, many of whom were prisoners and drug addicts, leading to consequences about which we all now know.
Mr Clarke
I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s intervention.
The kind of information that we have—and we have had interventions year after year—in terms of giving us the facts and the evidence, quite apart from what our constituents are drawing to our attention, was embraced in Lord Archer’s report, to which the motion refers. That report, which I very much welcome, led to Lord Morris of Manchester—both our noble Friends have done a commendable job in bringing these issues to our attention—attempting to deal with the problem through legislation. A Bill came to this House at the beginning of this year, but where did it go? Nowhere.
That brings me to what this issue means for our constituents. I spoke yesterday to a man in my constituency—I will not name him—who is now 36. He described the bizarre experiences of his case. He talked about the secrecy surrounding these matters. The excellent Yorkhill hospital in Glasgow has a very good reputation, but a large number of papers pertaining to it have simply gone missing. My constituent talked about the stigma of having hepatitis C; he had been told for many years that he did not have hepatitis A or B, and was lucky not to have AIDS. His doctor withheld information on his particular case for more than a year. He told me only yesterday what the real problems were—for example, the difficulty of getting life insurance and a mortgage for himself and his partner.
Mr Clarke
I am sorry, I do not have time.
My constituent also talked about the increased premium he faced in getting travel insurance. People are clearly being penalised again and again because they had the misfortune to find themselves with this condition of haemophilia and then found, as they approached the national health service, that their condition was made unacceptably worse.
I want to thank the organisations that have helped. With particular reference to Scotland, I want to thank Mr Philip Nolan, who spent several hours with my constituent and me, and who, it seems to me, has been in London almost every week for years, preaching to us the necessity to act.
My constituent referred yesterday to the position in Northern Ireland. I do not want to open up yet another party political debate, but the truth of the matter is that even with its economic difficulties, Ireland—if I said Northern Ireland yesterday, I should have said Ireland—has not abandoned its scheme.
Mr Clarke
I am sorry, but I do not have enough time to give way.
If the scheme means getting earlier acceptance on to the waiting list and getting problems recognised, and if our constituents should not be doubly penalised for something that is not their fault, I am with my constituent in saying that justice delayed is justice denied—and we have denied justice for far too long. Today provides us with an opportunity to put that right.
Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD)
It is good to have this debate today on an issue that I worked on throughout the last Parliament. Last year we managed to secure an Adjournment debate on the subject in Westminster Hall, but we have sought a debate in this Chamber for a very long time. I believe that the last debate on this issue was in 1990, and much has changed since then. A great deal has already been said about the figures. The hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) talked about how many people have been affected: 1,200 infected with HIV, 4,670 infected with hepatitis C, and so far more than 1,800 people have died.
I got involved because of the human side to the issue, and I would like to pay tribute to my constituent, Haydn Lewis, an absolute stalwart of the campaign. He was one those infected, and he had hepatitis B, hepatitis C and HIV, and was lately told that he was potentially exposed to variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease as a result of the contaminated blood products that he had been given. He finally developed liver cancer because of the hepatitis C, and tragically, he died this summer, after spending 20-odd years campaigning on behalf of the people who had been infected. He was a superb campaigner. He galvanised people across the country. He came to the most recent lobby earlier this year, even though he was extremely ill. He also did a huge amount of research into what happened in the ’70s and the ’80s. He came to see me almost as soon as I was elected to try to get me involved in the campaign.
As has already been said, it should be made clear that this is not a party political issue. This has happened under Governments of all colours and all Governments did something, but in my opinion we still have a long way to go. I am really glad that the Government have announced their intention to review some of Archer’s recommendations. That is good news.
Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con)
My constituent Sarah Vergopoulos came to see me when her brother died because of infected blood just last year. She was most concerned to ensure that something would actually happen as a result of this debate. It seems to me that this debate—I commend the Backbench Business Committee on it—has already been a success, because something has already happened. The review has been announced and a timeline has been given to ensure that something will come forward this side of Christmas. I can thus report back to my constituent that just by holding this debate, something has already moved, which might not have moved without it.
Jenny Willott
The hon. Gentleman is correct. This debate on the Floor of the House is something for which many of those affected have called for a number of years. For them, it is important that that has been recognised and that Ministers are now listening to Members of all parties expressing their views.
Mr David Davis
Like the hon. Lady, I would have liked the debate to be less partisan than it has been so far. Her example highlights what a tragedy this has been and what an injustice has been committed. Although we are in the midst of a massive financial crisis, we should all recognise that tragedies and injustices like this deserve priority in spending terms over everything else.
Jenny Willott
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. I am disappointed that, as was announced in the statement earlier today, not all the recommendations will be reviewed.
Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Does my hon. Friend welcome the fact—I hope that the Minister will expand on it—that the issue of compensation for the hepatitis C victims will be addressed, as that seems to be a very important part of the case?
Jenny Willott
Indeed, and I was just coming to that point. As Members will be aware, the previous Government lost a judicial review in April when Lord Archer’s recommendations for increasing compensation in line with payments in Ireland seemed to be rejected out of hand. My concern is that today’s statement appears to do something similar, so I am somewhat disappointed at the wording of it.
Nia Griffith
I commend the hon. Lady for the excellent work she has done, including the Adjournment debate that she mentioned, which I too attended. I also commend her for lobbying Ministers. Does she agree that what she really wants is some firm commitment from the Government Front-Bench team—something concrete that she can go home with, rather than having to push things back again and again, as has happened in the past?
Jenny Willott
The fact that we have a deadline of Christmas for the report is very helpful. That is not too far away, and a concrete date has been specified. I hope that the Minister will ensure that we get the response by that time, and that if given the chance later, she will speak further on that subject.
The time that this process is taking is clearly a major issue. Given that it has taken more than 20 years even to hold an inquiry, the least the victims deserve is for the recommendations to be considered seriously, even those that would be expensive to implement. Lord Archer made a number of sensible and important recommendations, and although many have been implemented, a number still need to be acted on. Some would be expensive to implement, but others would not. Improved compensation is clearly the most controversial, and I appreciate that in the current financial climate the Government will find it hard to deal with, but, as was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith), other issues, too, have not been considered properly so far. For instance, patients with hepatitis C are treated differently from, and worse than, those with HIV. That simply is not fair. The widows of those who died before August 2003 receive nothing, and that is not fair either. Those who are infected cannot obtain insurance, which has massive implications for their lives.
Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
The hon. Lady has been very generous in giving way. I do not wish to be partisan, but do not some elements of the statement give us pause? It refers to access to insurance. “Access” is a very vague word. It is not just a question of access; as constituents have pointed out to me, it is a question of provision as well. Does the hon. Lady agree that the Government need to be much clearer about that in the terms of reference?
Jenny Willott
I hope that they are clear about it both in the terms of reference and in the final review and announcement. Although the issue is not particularly glamorous, and is fairly complicated and difficult for people to understand, it has massive implications for day-to-day life, and it really does need to be dealt with sooner rather than later.
The victims of the tragedy were infected more than 20 years ago. This has gone on for a very long time. Year by year we are losing those victims: people such as Haydn are, tragically, passing away each year. We cannot let this drag on any longer. Being a politician is about standing up and representing people who cannot represent themselves. Haydn can no longer represent himself, and many other people who are affected by this are no longer able to speak for themselves. It is our job to stand up and do the right thing, and I hope very much that we can do that today.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott), both for her work and for her speech, and I join my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) in paying tribute to Lord Archer for his report—and also to Lord Morris of Manchester, who was my predecessor as Member of Parliament for Manchester, Wythenshawe, and has done so much work on this and many other issues.
Much of my understanding of this issue comes from the experience of three of my constituents: Peter Mossman, Fred Bates and Fred’s wife Eleanor. I pay tribute to their resilience and determination. Peter discovered that he was a mild haemophiliac in 1976. One day in 1985 he came home from work with bruising on his leg. He went to hospital, where he was treated with contaminated blood and infected with hepatitis C. What resulted immediately was a desperate illness followed by, in the longer term, worsening bleeds and severe liver damage.
Fred was also a mild haemophiliac, although his condition is now severe. He has never been able to identify precisely when he became infected with hepatitis C, although it is certain that, although tests were carried out throughout the 1980s that would have confirmed his condition, he was never told. Only after the chance reading of a leaflet in 1993 did he ask whether he was infected, and he was finally told the truth. He was then told to go home, and that there was nothing to worry about. Life for Fred means often feeling extremely cold. He suffers from severe bleeding, and now has cirrhosis of the liver. For Eleanor, life means not only supporting Fred and enduring severe financial hardship, but having to live for years unaware of the risks that she faced to her own health because Fred had never been told the truth about his condition.
What Peter, Fred and Eleanor find hardest to bear is covered in chapter 7 of Lord Archer’s report—namely that doctors knew about the risks involved in treating patients with blood products, but failed to inform them. There is no doubt that Fred and Peter, who were both mild haemophiliacs, would never have consented to treatment with contaminated blood products which carried a high risk of infection with HIV and hepatitis C. However, it is not only the doctors who failed to explain the dangers. It seems to me, and indeed to all of us, that the whole health system was caught up in what amounts to a conspiracy of silence.
I have a copy of a letter dated 31 July 1981 from a member of staff in the Department of Health and Social Security to an official in the Treasury. The letter is headed “Blood products laboratory—redevelopment”. It states, among other things, that
“health authorities are obliged to supplement supplies from BPL with expensive and, because of the hepatitis risk, less safe imported commercial blood products at a cost of up to £10m annually.”
People at the top of the DHSS knew the risks, but patients were not informed, and four years after that letter was written, my constituent Peter Mossman was infected with hepatitis C.
Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
Is my right hon. Friend aware that it has been estimated that as many as 90% of haemophiliacs who were treated with blood in the 1970s and 1980s have at least one life-threatening disease?
Paul Goggins
I am aware of that. What I am trying to emphasise is that if my constituents, and indeed many others, had been given proper information, they would have been able to make a balanced decision about the risks that they faced.
We all have constituents who will have their own stories, and as a result of the Archer report we now have a definite analysis of what went wrong. The great thing about the report, however, is that it points the way forward. It is now a case of what we can do to support those who survive in the circumstances in which they find themselves, and I believe that we need to do at least four things.
First, there needs to be an apology. I know that some people feel that an apology is just words and is therefore meaningless, but in June this year the Prime Minister proved from the Dispatch Box that that is not the case when he gave an unequivocal apology to the families of Derry for what had occurred on 30 January 1972. That apology means a lot to those families, and it is enabling them to move forward. I believe that haemophiliacs infected with hepatitis C and HIV deserve no less.
Secondly, there must be proper financial recompense. There is a debate about that. Archer recommends equivalence with the Irish scheme, but the Government ruled that out today, and are to institute a review instead. Whatever the outcome of that review, it must be demonstrably fair to those who have been affected. There must be a level playing field between those infected with, respectively, hepatitis C and HIV. Thirdly, there must be no impact on benefit entitlement: any recompense must be over and above the benefit payments that people receive.
Charlotte Leslie
I want to pay tribute to my constituent Bob Purnell, who died, his son Edward, and his wife Gill. I also want to dispel any misunderstanding that there may have been about the debate’s being partisan. I welcome it very much.
I think we all appreciate that the Government are in a difficult position because of the financial situation. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that if we cannot make the payments that I think we would all like to make to victims who have suffered greatly, it might be possible to increase payments in future as the economic situation becomes more viable?
Paul Goggins
I am pleased that the hon. Lady has had an opportunity to mention and pay tribute to her constituent. There may be an argument for staging payments over time, but the Government must be clear about the award and the level of compensation at the outset.
Finally, the whole social care and health system must become much more sensitive to the needs of those who were caught up in this tragedy. There must be more sympathetic treatment for those who have been infected and their carers.
I regret the fact that we were not able to do more over the past 13 years to support and assist this particular group. I want to compliment the Minister, because I know from conversations that I have had and from things that I have read that she has gained a fair amount of confidence from those who were caught up in the tragedy, and from members of the haemophiliac community. My guess is that her experience of the health service, along with her own personal qualities, has led her to want to deal with the situation and, in her own words, to get closure before the end of the year. Let me say to her that having come so far so quickly, she now carries a huge burden of responsibility to ensure that the solution that she comes up with retains that confidence, and does not further dash the hopes of a community who have been so badly let down in the past.
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)
I thank the hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) for opening this debate and all the Members who have spoken in it thus far. Many of them mentioned by name constituents who have suffered as a result of receiving contaminated blood products, but on Monday I received a visit from a constituent who specifically did not wish to be named because she still feels that she suffers a stigma as a result of having hepatitis C. She does not want it talked about and she is embarrassed, but it is not just she who suffers; so, too, does her son.
There is never a good time to get a Government to commit to significant spending, but this is a new Parliament with a bright, shiny new Government and we should celebrate the fact that we finally have the opportunity to hold this debate on the Floor of the House of Commons some 20 years after the subject under discussion became an issue.
Not many people in Romsey and Southampton North have been infected as a result of having received contaminated blood products, but a handful have, and it is tragic to hear some of them say that although they would like to be present today they do not feel they can afford the train fare to come to London. Indeed, even those who have travelled have welcomed the fact that the debate is being held in the afternoon so they do not have to pay peak-time train fares to attend it.
I wish to make a specific point to the Minister, but let me first say that I welcome parts of the written statement, because elements of it represent progress, and the people in the Public Gallery who have travelled here today want to see progress on this issue. They do not want a partisan row to develop on the Floor of the House; they want us to make moves in the right direction.
One constituent who came to see me made some points about insurance. She and her family find it difficult to enjoy a family holiday because it is hard for them to get travel insurance. There are similar difficulties with life insurance and mortgages, and therefore it can be hard for people to buy their own property and have the security that that provides. I therefore welcome the parts of the statement that make reference to insurance because it is important.
The specific point I wish to make is about dentistry. It may not be particularly widely known that hepatitis C sufferers frequently have significant problems with gum disease. A constituent of mine therefore wanted to have easier access to NHS dentistry. I hope the Minister will take that point on board, and be prepared to make some sort of dentistry provision in future.
My constituents are not greedy people. Both those who have travelled here today and those who have not have stressed to me that they wish there to be fair compensation, and that they wish to have help from this Government. They do not wish to apportion blame because there has not been any progress over the past 20 years. What they want is progress now.
Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
Appropriately, I am wearing a black tie today both to acknowledge the fact that many people have died because of contaminated blood products before they had the opportunity to see a full debate on the subject in this Chamber, and to pay respects to a constituent of mine, James McVey, who died tragically at the weekend at the age of just 18. His death is not related to this issue, but I am sure that all Members on both sides of the House would want to join me in sending our condolences to his family and friends.
I thank the Backbench Business Committee for bringing this long-neglected issue firmly back on to the political agenda. It is to our great shame that it is necessary to have a debate on it so long after the original events, and it is an indictment of previous Administrations that many of the issues surrounding the contaminated blood disaster remain unresolved to this day.
The case for making adequate reparations to the victims and their families has been eloquently made both today and on previous occasions in this House and in the other place. However, I have never heard a more stirring description of the tragedy and its effects on individual lives than the emotional personal account of one young gentleman in Committee Room 7 yesterday. His words will stay with me for a very long time.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
In common with many other speakers, the hon. Gentleman is making a powerful case for compensation, and I think all Members have sympathy with that. However, given the pain being caused by the £1 billion saved by getting rid of child benefit for higher rate taxpayers, where does he think that £3 billion will come from? Does he have the courage to tell the House which budget we should cut to pay that compensation?
Steve Rotheram
I am being encouraged to make a party political point, but as my mum used to say, “Two wrongs don’t make a right,” and, believe me, if I were sitting on the Government Benches now I would be saying exactly the same thing. On this issue, it does not matter what political party we are in.
The NHS failed almost 5,000 people. Through using contaminated blood and blood products, it made ill people more ill, sometimes fatally so. It made perfectly healthy individuals—accident victims requiring blood transfusions, for example—unwell for life. Indeed, as many have said this fiasco was, in Lord Winston’s words,
“the worst treatment disaster in the history of the NHS”.
The state should have gone out of its way decades ago to compensate victims financially and in kind, not only to accept responsibility, but proactively to alleviate the adverse impact of its mistakes. Instead, successive Governments have prevaricated; they have been reluctant to acknowledge fault and loth to carry the can financially.
Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con)
Constituents of mine, such as a gentleman, whom I will not name, who contracted both HIV and hepatitis C at the age of five, have made it clear that they do not want Members to consider the issue on a party political basis, and I welcome the fact that the hon. Gentleman is reflecting that wish in his tone. It is incumbent on every Member to put party politics aside and to do all we can to ensure that this matter is treated as a top priority, while also taking into account the constraints on the state.
Steve Rotheram
I absolutely agree, and the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) agrees with our view as well. He said:
“It really is time that as a Country, as a government (and forget whatever Party it is), we should now take responsibility for this. It’s a completely shocking scandal.”
Let me tell Members about what happened to a constituent of mine, Mr Christopher Munn. In 1981, he was mugged and stabbed. He received a blood transfusion and contracted hepatitis C. For years, Mr Munn fought for recognition, support and compensation but, unable to afford legal representation, he found himself led a merry dance, and was swatted away like some bothersome pest. An initial application to the Skipton Fund was rejected but, thankfully, on appeal, some 25 years after being infected he was awarded a few thousand pounds. Now, £25,000 or £45,000 is no small sum, but if we do the maths it quickly becomes apparent how risible that amount actually is when spread over 25 years and more.
This issue is largely about the money of course. Many victims, severely debilitated by conditions developed as a direct result of contaminated blood, have been struggling to meet their medical needs, let alone achieve a comfortable standard of living. However, the issue is also about the need for acknowledgement. Victims need the state to accept unreservedly and unconditionally its responsibility for their plight, and to meet its moral obligations. For the NHS and, by extension, the current Government to retain their integrity, they must make amends. To those who have challenged Labour Members with comments such as, “But what did your Government do about it?”, my answer is very simple: not enough.
Steve Rotheram
No, as I am conscious of time.
The bottom line is that successive Governments irrespective of their political persuasion hesitated over investing resources and setting precedents. They were all equally culpable in failing the victims, but rather than bang on about who did or did not do what and when, let us finally seize the opportunity to right a terrible wrong.
I fully appreciate that money is tight, but morality is absolute, not some relative concept that expands and contracts to suit circumstances. We cannot as a society be more moral in good times than in bad. The Government have spoken about compassion and fairness and “the caring society”. They have no option but to put their money where their mouth is in order to put right a decade-old wrong.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
I thank the Backbench Business Committee for tabling this motion, because it is vital that such important, tragic and sensitive issues get debated on the Floor of the House. I welcome the statement by the Minister, because over a number of years those affected by this problem have gone on a rollercoaster journey. That is because in recent years the Archer report has been published, the Government have taken a position and a judicial review has been undertaken, and now we have reached a point where a Government are saying, “Within five months a review will take place and within three months we will come back with a position.” If that review can be carried out earlier than the end of the year, I ask the Minister to ensure that it is, because time is running out for some of the victims of this tragedy.
I wish to discuss the case of the father of one of my constituents, who suffered from a rare form of haemophilia. In 1984, he cut his finger while working, was given factor VIII to clot the blood and, as a result, has suffered from HIV and hepatitis C. It was not until four years later, when different blood samples were taken away and different analysis was done, that he was told that he had hepatitis and HIV. He then had to tell his wife, but at that point he was not given any specific counselling—not only between 1984 and 1989, but to this very day, no specific counselling has been given to him, and that must urgently be reviewed.
On the funding comparison with Ireland, from 1989 until today, this individual has received £78,000 in total compensation over a number of years, with £6,400 per rota. At one stage, after the Archer report, he was given £12,800. For the same period, someone in Ireland would have received a lump sum of £200,000. It is not the case that people simply want compensation; this is about the family. He feels that a lump sum gives security; if something happens he can leave some money for his family. He feels that if we cannot have comparability, he would very much appreciate having some measures that go towards it.
Dr John Pugh (Southport) (LD)
The hon. Gentleman mentions compensation and the difference between the situation in this country and that in Ireland—reference has been made to that several times. However, there is another huge difference: no UK Government have acknowledged negligence liability yet.
Rehman Chishti
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to say that there is the question of liability, and I understand that it was dealt with at the judicial review, when the High Court addressed it. In Ireland, the issue of fault was raised.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
The previous Government retold the fiction several times that the compensation scheme in Ireland rested on the finding of liability, but that scheme existed in Ireland before the finding of liability, be it by either the Finlay or Lindsay tribunals.
Rehman Chishti
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that. The point that I was making about the Government and clarification related to the judicial review, which examined that very matter.
The other point I wish to make has been touched on eloquently by other Members. Since 1989, this individual has not been able to go on holiday, because of problems with travel and life insurance. Those matters must be dealt with swiftly, given the length of time left for him to live, so that he can enjoy that time with his family. I welcome the fact that he can be here to sit in the Public Gallery in this House to hear this debate.
Finally, I urge the Minister to provide specific counselling for those people who have suffered from this tragedy. I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to speak and the Backbench Business Committee for bringing this motion to the Floor of the House.
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
I wish to say a few words about my constituent, Andrew March, who is a victim of contaminated blood. He is not only a remarkable man and campaigner; he is the reason we are talking about this today, because he was the claimant in the judicial review that led to the written ministerial statement. That statement was correctly attacked by my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) today.
I am new to Mr March, in the sense that he has been a constituent of mine since May, as he lives in the Hammersmith and Fulham part of the constituency that I inherited. However, I have caught up quickly with what he has been doing over many years and decades. The easiest way for me to summarise his predicament and what he has done is to read from a letter that he sent to me on 23 July. He said:
“I was one of the young children at the time of the AIDS outbreak, and I had to cope with being told that I had HIV at the age of 9. It was extremely difficult to deal with back then—and the devastation was compounded by the stigma. Before that, I had already been ill from Hepatitis B, again, from blood products because of my haemophilia condition. By 1992, whilst I was studying at the Royal College of Music on a 4-year degree, I was informed that I had also been exposed to hepatitis C, and only 5 years later, I was given another blow when I was informed that I had been exposed to two batches of Factor VIII blood products taken from a donor who later went on to develop vCJD. I had been treated with over 110 bottles of this vCJD-implicated material being injected directly into my bloodstream.”
Lorraine Fullbrook
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this very debate helps to raise awareness of those people suffering from hepatitis C contracted from contaminated blood products and helps to remove the stigma attached to hepatitis C? I am thinking of people such as a constituent of mine, who wishes not to be named but is suffering from hepatitis C1a, which is the severest form of hepatitis.
Mr Slaughter
I think that this debate does do that, and I am grateful for this opportunity to increase my own knowledge. However, I think that we need to move on to some very specific recommendations because, as the mover of the motion eloquently said, this is a time for action more than contemplation. That is exactly what Mr March did when he brought the judicial review in April, and the matter has been just been clarified, as my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) described, in relation to the mistake that the previous Government made on the situation in Ireland. That was the error made by that Government. That was the finding of the judicial review, and it is what the Government are responding to today.
I shall not read from the judicial review, other than to quote its final paragraphs, because they again relate to Mr March. The learned judge, Mr Justice Holman, said that counsel for the claimant
“paid a warm but measured tribute to…Andrew March, ‘for his tenacity and balance in the asking of questions and soliciting of information, and not taking no for an answer when the reasons are not good ones.’ My impression is that that tribute is justified and well judged, and that the many other people interested in this cause owe gratitude to Mr March for his tenacity or persistence.”
I say again that Mr March has done that for many years, suffering as he did not only from his original medical condition but from the effects of the contamination.
Taintedblood, an organisation that has done a lot of excellent work in briefing us all and preparing us for this debate, states:
“The Under-Secretary of State for Health”—
the hon. Member for Guildford (Anne Milton)—
“recently held a series of meetings with campaigners, the Haemophilia Society, the Macfarlane and Eileen Trusts, the Skipton Fund and others. In those meetings she demonstrated a new willingness by Government to face up to and deal with what has happened to the Haemophilia Community.”
Those organisations must be very disappointed today by the amendment that the Government attempted to move and by the written ministerial statement.
I welcome what is said in the terms of reference about hepatitis C, as has been mentioned. I want to clarify whether the Minister is offering full parity for hepatitis C sufferers with what AIDS sufferers experience, including the £12,800 per annum payments, and that that will be susceptible to the review.
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
The constituent whom the hon. Gentleman mentioned is the son of one of my constituents in Nuneaton. I want to mention the families of those affected by this disaster, because they have also had to bear a real burden in supporting people such as Mr March over the years. Does the hon. Gentleman welcome the terms of reference that the Minister announced in her statement about supporting the families who have had to bear that burden?
Mr Slaughter
No, I definitely do not. I ask the Minister to clarify—if not now, when she makes her speech—whether the terms of reference will allow hepatitis C sufferers to be treated at least as HIV/AIDS sufferers are under the current scheme. I hope that she will do that. However, all that could have been done today. The limited amount that is offered in the review could quite easily have been announced today. If there had to be a review, I should have liked it to have been along the terms of Lord Morris’s Bill, which considered all the remaining provisions of the Archer inquiry and said specifically—this is the contentious part:
“When making the regulations the Secretary of State shall have regard to any comparable compensation schemes offered in other countries.”
The noble Lord’s Bill was a good Bill, but I would say—this is the only criticism that I would make of my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West—that I think today’s motion goes a little too far. It calls specifically for parity with the scheme in Ireland. I do not think that it gives the Government sufficient room. I would ask the Government—this is the commitment that I would look for today—to widen the terms of the review and to reconsider all the matters that Lord Archer raised, including compensation. Even if the conclusion is that parity is unlikely with Ireland, where the situation is different even given the judicial review—that was suggested in the opening speeches—in the current financial climate we need to look at the levels of compensation that are paid.
I also think that the motion, while criticising previous Governments, could at least have acknowledged that the previous Government responded to the Archer review by making regular annual payments at a higher level, although I understand that my constituent and many others regard that as inadequate. I regard it as inadequate. We are looking, I think, for something between the two. The unfortunate thing about the Government response today is that it cuts off that option. The amendment and the ministerial statement do not allow the option of considering more generous compensation in the light of Lord Archer’s proposals. That is why I would have voted against the amendment and that is why I think it is wrong for the Government to have given false hope to sufferers and to have dashed that hope with their announcement today.
Dr Phillip Lee (Bracknell) (Con)
I am the only regular practising medical doctor in this House and it is somewhat surprising that no one contacted me to lobby on behalf of any of the issues to do with this debate. I stand here as someone who has no idea whether I have any constituents affected by this dreadful scandal, but I do understand what it is like to have hepatitis C and to have HIV. On a personal level, I was once married to somebody who carried the gene for haemophilia, so I have considered the idea of bringing a haemophiliac into this world and the implications thereof. More importantly, I have spent weekends away with the Haemophilia Society in the past. I have been privy to the annoyance, upset, anger and frustration with this whole affair since it started to rear its ugly head in the late ’70s.
It is important when we are discussing this issue to try to separate emotion from fact. The fact of the matter is that before we could administer cryoprecipitate factor VIII, the life expectancy of haemophiliacs in this country was in the 20s. When we discuss compensation—perhaps this is a way of decoupling us from the compensation scheme in the Republic of Ireland—we need to discuss compensating people for loss of earnings and widows’ pensions, instead of compensating people for loss of life. It is important that we distinguish between the two issues, instead of getting emotional. It is easy to stand up and discuss distressing cases, which is an approach that can be applied to an array of conditions. Let us concentrate on fact, because there may be an appropriate solution.
I could speak all day on this issue, but I am conscious of time. Questions of morality and of cost arise in deciding appropriate compensation. To my mind, the present economic difficulties that our Government are dealing with are not a consideration. A big wrong occurred, and we need to deal with it irrespective of the timing. The former Member for Plymouth, Devonport, David Owen, who was a medically qualified person, was involved at the outset under a Labour Government. The subsequent Conservative Government continued to miss the signs and failed to implement necessary procedures to make sure that the blood was not contaminated.
I want to draw attention to the figures. I have read only the first four chapters of the Archer report, because I realised only at 12.30 pm that the matter was going to be debated. I have noticed mistakes in the first four chapters, so I am not encouraged by the report in general. The report cites a figure of £3 billion, which I think the Department of Health provided to Ministers, but the figure is actually £1 billion. There is a typo—if one divides the two figures, one does not get £850,000; one gets £350,000. Let us talk about facts first, because we may be discussing £1 billion, not £3 billion. If one relates those calculations to the price of life, we can arrive at a compensation scheme that I can support.
Mr Robinson
Is the hon. Gentleman saying—I heard about this matter briefly before I came into the House—that the £3 billion figure relates to a typo and that the figure should be £300 million, because that needs to be clarified?
Dr Lee
Yes. If one does the division, one realises that one figure must be wrong—off the top of my head, the figure is 853 as opposed to 353. I encourage the hon. Gentleman to look at that point.
If the figure is £1 billion, we spend £1 billion on the NHS every three and a half days. We can find that money. I do not know how one prices a liver, and I do not know how one prices a liver transplant that does not happen. I cannot put a price on that, and I challenge anyone else to do so. We are talking about 4,670 people, so we can behave appropriately at last and provide the appropriate compensation.
On the financial implications, HIV widows are forced through the Benefits Agency to seek work within weeks of their partner’s death, and hepatitis C widows whose partners died before 2004 receive no financial help at all. The implications for the haemophilia community are stark. I cannot say that we should trim this and that because of the comprehensive spending review; I would rather we borrowed the £500 million and did the right thing.
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
Given my hon. Friend’s medical background, will he explain whether it is appropriate for someone with hepatitis C to receive incapacity benefit?
Dr Lee
I believe that it is, but, with respect, that is missing the point. As far as I am concerned, the Department of Health is culpable. This is not a party political matter; it is a departmental matter. It had a series of opportunities over a number of years to deal with the issue, but it missed them, and surprisingly it lost a few documents in the process. That is shocking. If the Department is worried about precedent, that makes me concerned about other conditions and treatments. Is there something else that we should know about? If this is about precedent, I should like to set one: this was wrong and we should pay out appropriately.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I am sorry, but the time limit has been reached.
Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)
First, I join other right hon. and hon. Members in thanking the Backbench Business Committee for recognising the importance of the case that my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) and I put to it. The volume and the quality of the contributions we have heard today bear eloquent testimony to the fact that the Business Committee was absolutely right to note that this is a critical issue—one that many hon. Members on both sides of the House feel has received too little attention in recent years from successive Governments. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West for picking up the baton and moving the motion, which he did with great aplomb and verve, as ever.
Most of all, I should like to thank the victims and their families who have been in contact with me since we first learned that we had succeeded in securing this debate. Their kind words and support have been hugely welcome. I am delighted that so many of them managed to come here today—and, indeed, yesterday—to witness the debate. That bears extraordinarily powerful testament to the wrong that has been done to them and their families. I hope that we are doing some justice to their cases today by debating this issue so fully.
I am extremely pleased that the debate has prompted the Government to put before the House today’s statement, which is somewhat misaligned with the wrecking amendment, as my hon. Friend described it.
Mr Robinson
I wonder, Madam Deputy Speaker, whether you could put the point to the Minister that we are conducting the debate on the basis of the ministerial statement that has been placed in the Library rather than one made to the House. Perhaps the Minister can tell us what the basis of compensation would be if we were to implement the Archer recommendations. Is the figure £3 billion, £300 million or £1.2 billion? I have heard different figures. Does my hon. Friend agree that we cannot continue the debate without more clarity about what we are considering? The Government have stated that we are inviting them to spend £3 billion, but the figure might in fact be far less.
Owen Smith
I, too, would very much like that point to be addressed. I was going to ask the Minister how the £3 billion figure was calculated. The Haemophilia Society has today suggested that the figure has been calculated erroneously on the basis of a typographical error in the Archer report and that the number has been extrapolated from a false figure that Archer published regarding the volumes that were given in Ireland. So, I, too, would welcome the Minister’s clarification on that hugely important point.
Mr Dorrell
I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members that the number of pounds we are talking about is, to put it mildly, salient. However, is it not also relevant that the House is being asked to sign up not to a specific sum but to the principle that the compensation payable in this country should be at least aligned with that payable in the Republic of Ireland? Whatever the number, the House should not sign up to the dubious principle that whatever is paid in Ireland we will pay here.
Owen Smith
I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s argument, which is a good one intellectually, but the rationale for the recommendation’s inclusion in the motion was, essentially, that the victims of this tragedy wanted the House to debate it. The Archer report is the only substantive inquiry that we have had. It came to that conclusion on compensation, so we felt it appropriate to ask that question of the House. However, I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s point about tying ourselves to recommendations that are made in another jurisdiction.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for pressing for the motion today. I am obviously keen to support him. On the debate about parity with the Republic of Ireland, the Minister in her statement talked about working with the UK’s devolved Administrations and with their Health Ministers. Does the hon. Gentleman also support the need for parity within the UK? Will he urge the Minister before us and the Minister in Wales, because we are both Welsh Members, to work on the review with the Department of Health in order to come up with at least some parity within the UK?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. It is up to Members to decide on the number of times that they give way to interventions, but I am concerned that that is going to stop other Members getting in. If we are going to have interventions, Mr Cairns, we need to make them very brief.
Owen Smith
I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s excellent point. One thing that I was slightly disappointed about in the ministerial statement was the fact that those discussions clearly have not taken place. Some of the statement’s specifics are very welcome, particularly its point about the terms of reference and, notably, the fact that the level of payment to people with hepatitis C might be equalised.
Ms Abbott
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. You will be aware that “Mr Secretary Lansley” and “Anne Milton” tabled an amendment that is on the Order Paper and includes the figure “£3 billion”. Some Opposition Members feel that this debate cannot go forward until we have some clarification of its accuracy.
Mr Deputy Speaker
A point of order takes up valuable time, too. I recognise that you wanted to make it, but you will have the opportunity to put the case a little later. What we ought to try to do is respect all Members. I want to try to get in all those Members who are here; I do not want disappoint them.
Owen Smith
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I now have very little time left, so I shall speak a little faster, if I may.
It is absolutely critical that the Minister makes it very clear in her response that she is talking about equalising the payment to people with hepatitis C with the previous payments to victims of HIV. It is also important that she consider the specificity of the recommendations, including the terms of reference. Victims’ access to nursing care and to the NHS ought to be looked at differentially. They were infected by the NHS, in effect, and therefore they ought to be treated differently when looked after by the NHS.
In the last minute of my speech, I want to pay tribute to some people in the Public Gallery today. The reason I am so interested in today’s debate is that a very brave constituent of mine, Leigh Sugar, died earlier this year. His family came to see me just days after his death to express their desire for him to be the last person who suffers in their dying days, having not been looked after properly by the NHS, and having been infected through NHS treatment.
Leigh is a classic example of a person who, as a mild haemophiliac, went to hospital—he, in his teens—to be treated for the condition and came out with a devastating disease. That disease ultimately led to his death from liver cancer. Far too many people have died before we have seen this House deliver justice, and it is absolutely critical that justice be seen to be done today. This is a moral issue, it is a matter of conscience and of justice, and we owe it to the victims, whatever the difficulties of the CSR, to see justice served so that they might be properly recognised and properly recompensed.
Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)
I welcome the Government’s intention to review the Archer report, for this simple reason: its last recommendation, which to many sufferers was the most important, was to review the nursing, caring and other services that are available. This debate has been very much focused on money, but regardless of whether the figures are correct, the problems that many sufferers have had to experience throughout their lives, from the moment of infection, have been compounded by the years in which they have had to deal with these problems alone.
I would like to give the House a couple of examples, because I do not think that any of us, although we speak here on behalf of our constituents, can fully understand some of the problems that these people have had to deal with. I would like to speak on behalf of a constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) and a constituent of my own, and cite some of the things that they have told us. What they said to us is powerful, and we must recognise the bravery that it takes for people to go and sit in front of their MP and talk about the problems that they experience, which is not an easy thing to do. Some of those constituents are here today.
My constituent was infected with HIV from contaminated blood at the age of 12, when he was told: “This is what you now have. You must never tell anybody at all, ever. You must never tell friends in school, because if you do you will be bullied and hounded out of your school, and we will be hounded out of our home and have to move away.” It is enough to have suffered with haemophilia, but then, at the age of 12, they are told not only that they have a socially unacceptable disease, as it was at that time, but, at an age when they fully understand, that they are soon going to die from it.
He got that message more powerfully than by words alone. As a haemophiliac before his diagnosis of HIV, he was never allowed to have a bike of his own, so he was always asking to hitch a ride on somebody else’s. The Christmas after his diagnosis, his Christmas present was a bike of his own. He knew, from the statements by his parents and the look in his father’s eyes, that it did not matter any more—that he may as well have his own bike, because at that point in the ’80s nobody knew whether he had a month, a year or years to live. For a child to have had to live with being a social pariah, and to have had to keep a secret that they know they will die from, brings with it psychological problems that we cannot even begin to imagine. Their childhood is taken away and they have to live with that secret all their life.
I welcome the report, because these people need counselling. They need to be able to know that they can speak about the vitally important conditions that they suffer from, and how to deal with them. To use the words of one of our constituents, he felt that he had been born to bleed but did not realise he would have to pay the death penalty for it, and every day he feels ungrateful to be alive. The figures may be wrong or right, but other issues are just as important as the financial compensation that some of the people who have been infected are looking for.
There was a huge stigma surrounding HIV in the ’80s. We know in this place, and many other people know now, that there are only two ways to catch HIV—via sexual intercourse or contaminated blood. Perhaps it is time for us to start doing our bit to let people know that that stigma should not be there any more and that these people should not be afraid to talk about what they have suffered.
Mr Robinson
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. We are conducting a Back-Bench debate that is being coloured by a figure in an amendment that the Government have tabled, which has not been selected. It suggests that £3 billion would be the cost of what my motion proposes. If the exact figure is in the order of 1% of that, or £300 million, as I think the hon. Member for Bracknell (Dr Lee), a medical doctor, suggested—[Hon. Members: “No, £1 billion.”] Does it come to £1 billion? I think that ought to be clarified before we go further in the debate.
Mr Deputy Speaker
In fairness, the Minister is going to speak and there will be an opportunity to intervene on her. I am sure she will want to point out the figure at that stage. What I want to do is get on with the debate until she comes to speak, and then I am sure Members in all parts of the House will be able to intervene.
Mr Deputy Speaker
I am getting the nod from the Minister that that will be dealt with in due course.
Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)
I have been sitting here waiting to speak for an hour or two. Those affected by the tragedy of contaminated blood and blood products have been waiting for justice for more than 25 years.
I do not have to tell anyone that living with haemophilia is hard. My own cousin was affected by the condition, and when I think of him now I always think of him with a smile on his face. He was always cheerful. As a child, I was always aware that he had haemophilia, although I did not understand what the condition meant. Having done some background reading and spoken to people, I can say this about him now: my admiration for him, my aunt and my uncle has only grown.
Like many Members, I was motivated to speak in the debate by a number of constituents who have haemophilia and have contacted me with their stories, which I found both moving and inspiring. One e-mail particularly struck a chord with me, and I spoke to the man who wrote it on the phone this morning. Wayne Gambin is 35 years old and has a young family, and he has haemophilia. He was given hepatitis C through a bad blood transfusion. I read about how he gets depressed a lot of the time just thinking about death, which is in the forefront of his mind most of the time. He wonders whether the disease could kick in, causing liver failure and eventually death.
Over the years, Wayne has tried two different experimental drug combinations, but they have had no effect on the disease. While on the trials he suffered a lot of side effects, such as depression and anger. During one trial three years ago, he lost his job and his house. He has a young family and cannot get life insurance because of the excessive charges, even though he contracted the disease through no fault of his own. He worries about dying and leaving his family destitute. To me, that is a scandal in itself.
Another constituent who also wrote to me is in his mid-40s and has three children, and was infected with hepatitis C in the ’80s following an accident that required surgery. He discovered he had the disease shortly before his 40th birthday and his health deteriorated dramatically, culminating in a liver transplant a year ago. His children now face the prospect of not having their father around in future. He has lost everything, even though he has worked his entire life.
I know that when we read stories such as that, it is easy to be carried away with the emotion of it all, but we can deal only in fact. Throughout the ’70s and the first half the ’80s, many in the UK who suffered from haemophilia were treated with blood and blood products that carried what came to be known as hepatitis C. As has been said, some 4,670 patients became infected. Between 1983 and the early 1990s, some 1,200 patients were infected with HIV through blood products. We know that because Lord Archer held an independent public inquiry.
The Macfarlane Trust was established in 1987 to provide emergency funding for haemophilia patients infected with HIV, most of whom were not expected to live more than five years. Victims, many of whom had a good standard of living beforehand, were required to go cap in hand for discretionary relief. Monthly payments are now dispensed. The Skipton Fund was founded in 2003 following the publication of the Ross report. Those infected with hepatitis C can claim a lump sum of £20,000, and a further £25,000 is paid to those who can establish that their hepatitis C led to severe liver disease.
I have no doubt that those were welcome developments, but like many other Members I believe that more needs to be done. As many have mentioned, Lord Archer’s conclusion, which has caused some controversy, was that payments should be at least equivalent to those payable under the Irish scheme, which is far more generous than ours. I hope that the Irish made that settlement because caring for the victims of the disaster was morally the right thing to do.
I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) that the annual payments awarded to all patients infected with hepatitis C and HIV through contaminated blood are too low. Considering the damage done to the lives of those infected and their families, they should be increased. Yes, there needs to be some reconciliation, and I welcome the Government’s move to review the recommendations of the Archer report, but I hope that they will go further and offer an apology, which costs absolutely nothing.
One of my constituents wrote to me to say that it is time to bring about an end to this fight and to allow those who remain to live out the rest of their lives with some peace of mind. I wholeheartedly agree with him.
Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)
Unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell (Dr Lee), I do not profess to have any high degree of expertise. I was approached by a couple of my constituents, who hit me with what can be described only as a moral sledgehammer. They movingly recounted profound stories of their youth and their lost childhoods, which others have mentioned, and of their inability to form full relationships with loved ones. Some victims have had to keep their condition secret owing to a fear of being shunned by people who have a naive attitude towards HIV. The heartbreaking accounts are seemingly endless. Very often, sufferers get into the habit of not telling friends and even relatives, and now find it impossible to divulge the truth. Many victims were children. Some never made it to adulthood.
We fight and argue in this Chamber over a range of issues, but we would struggle to find a more poignant debate than this. The contracting of HIV through blood transfusions is one of the most profound, disturbing and dreadful episodes in 20th century health treatment. According to my calculations, on average, one person a week has died as a result of being infected with HIV. Those who survive do so only because of a cocktail of drugs that keeps them hanging on to life. That treatment has been described as being on low-dose chemotherapy for the rest of one’s life.
An additional difficulty is that victims must cope with their inability to obtain life insurance—Opposition Members have mentioned that—and they also have difficulty with travel insurance and medicals. I therefore welcome the terms of reference for the review. Surely some help can be offered to the remaining survivors. I use the term “survivor” deliberately, because that is exactly what the remaining sufferers are.
A further tragedy is the fact that some sufferers were not told of their condition even when it was known by others, leading to the infection of partners. On other occasions, it was felt unnecessary to engage with sufferers as they were not expected to live very long anyway. The treatment that is available today for HIV sufferers was not envisaged in the 1980s, so it was believed that victims had a life expectancy of about five years. Thankfully, that has not been the case in many instances. Understandably, some who were told that they had only five years to live went out and spent their financial award pretty quickly, and enjoyed life to the full without considering investing for the future. Many such victims have consequently been left financially short.
We are familiar with the root cause of the infection: blood was imported for transfusion when the UK was not self-sufficient. Perhaps we need to look further into that. Safeguards that should have been implemented in both the UK and the US were not. Indeed, it appears that the UK was slow to act on minimising the chances of haemophiliacs contracting HIV. Clearly, mistakes were made, and they must be recognised.
More important than embarking on a witch hunt is deciding where we go from here. How can we achieve insurance for sufferers and support those who need it most? Infection from tainted blood was indiscriminate. Young and old, haemophiliacs and those who underwent operations were not spared. Nobody was spared.
The situation affects not only male haemophiliacs; some female cases have been reported. It is very much a matter of regret that the issue of adequate compensation was not tackled some time ago. I suspect that the sheer sums of money are part of the reason why the cause was not picked up by the previous Government. I look to this Government to do what they can to make the situation for sufferers and their families easier.
Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con)
Like me, my hon. Friend has constituents who are affected by this issue. Does he agree that although it is important to get the numbers and the money right, there is an important principle at stake too? From this debate, it would appear that the House wholeheartedly supports that principle.
Gareth Johnson
I agree with my hon. Friend, who makes a good point. A range of principles is at issue and we need to ensure that people who are affected by this tragedy are properly looked after as best the Government can achieve. We live in times of austerity, and there is a limit on what the Government can do, but it is incumbent on them to do all that they reasonably and practically can to help sufferers.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson).
My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) paid tribute to the campaigners by wearing a black tie. I am in rather a bright outfit for this occasion because of my own tribute to the breast cancer care campaign.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) on initiating this debate and I support his motion. In the words of Lord Winston, this is the “worst treatment disaster” in the history of the UK. Not only is it a human tragedy, but it is grossly unjust. My constituent Valerie Moule is widowed because, through no fault of her own or of her husband, the blood that he was given as a haemophiliac was contaminated by HIV. Ivan Moule was one of the first people to die from contaminated blood, in 1989. This is an unimaginable injustice. Ivan Moule innocently received blood as a treatment without knowing that it was killing him.
Injustice in any part of life has to be corrected and someone has to take responsibility when things go wrong—
Mr Tom Clarke
My hon. Friend has outlined some of the big issues that we are debating. Does she agree that one of the most unacceptable aspects of this situation is how widows have been treated?
Valerie Vaz
I agree with my right hon. Friend, and when I was contacted by Mrs Moule she very calmly and quietly encouraged me to take part in this debate.
When things go wrong, someone has to take responsibility, and that is the cornerstone of a civilised society. Despite their bereavement and illnesses, the determined campaigners, who are sitting in the Public Gallery wearing their armbands, established an independent inquiry paid for by private means. Not only do they have truth on their side, but—since April 2010—they have had the law on their side. In the Republic of Ireland, a full financial scheme is in place, with a compensation scheme based on civil law principles, but that is not mirrored in this country.
Haemophiliacs began dying of AIDS in the early 1980s. Some 2,000 people have already died having been infected by HIV. In my view, the Archer inquiry made significant recommendations that should all be implemented. It was cost-effective at the time to buy blood from other countries that was unscreened and, if we are not careful, that could happen again if commercial, cost-cutting considerations are brought into an area where they do not belong. As the Archer report says, commercial priorities should never override the interests of public health. This is a matter of public importance and public interest.
Proper financial relief should be paid to those who were infected. As a nation, we should apologise to those families who have suffered. We also need a commitment that blood will be screened and that blood from imported or unknown sources will not be used. We owe that to those who have died, like Ivan Moule, and to the living who cared for them, like Valerie Moule. I urge hon. Members to do the right thing and support the motion.
Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz).
I feel moved to speak today because this is an issue that shows how we as a society can show compassion for our fellow citizens and take responsibility for past mistakes. I have been well aware of the general topic of people suffering from contaminated blood transfusions for some time, but I did not become aware of either the full scale or the injustices of the problem until I met Ros Cooper, a constituent of mine, to whom I am incredibly grateful. She speaks with passion about this subject, and is an incredibly strong advocate for her fellow sufferers. She is relentless in her efforts to get her point across.
Ros’s story is not untypical. Diagnosed with a severe bleeding disorder at just six months, she has received blood products all her life. She receives them from as infrequently as three times a week to as often as twice a day. By the age of 14 she was able to inject herself with blood products. This is a woman who has had to grow up under the permanent threat of severe bleeding. Of course she has received treatment from the NHS, but as a direct result of that treatment she contracted hepatitis C—something she discovered only by hearsay, which seems to be a recurrent theme in this debate. Not only was she not given counselling to help her cope with that traumatic news, but she found out by hearsay that she might have been exposed to CJD.
Ros has received two rounds of treatment for her hepatitis C, but those, of course, are also traumatic. Six to 12 months of antiviral therapy can leave a patient unable to work: Ros was unable to earn a living for up to two years after both rounds of treatment. In the future she faces a liver transplant, cirrhosis or, worse still, cancer of the liver, as all sufferers of hepatitis C do. She is a vibrant young woman and would otherwise have faced a life that was admittedly severely inconvenienced—but still only inconvenienced—by her bleeding disorder. However, because she received contaminated blood products, arguably at a time when those providing them knew there was a risk of infection, she is severely disadvantaged.
Modern medicine has resulted in new types of manufactured blood products, reducing the risk to most patients. However, for Ros this salvation is not available. She suffers from a very rare disorder—type 3 von Willebrands—which means that she must receive real blood products that still come from America and overseas. So from between three times a week to up to twice a day, Ros injects herself with blood products that may carry an as yet undiscovered infection. Every time she feels exhausted or unwell, she will ask herself if she has infected herself with another illness. What is truly remarkable about Ros’s story is that she is clear of HIV, which is very welcome news.
The fact that we are having this debate is a significant leap forward, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) on his efforts to move this incredibly important issue forward, and the hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) on taking up the banner. That it has taken so long for us to debate the matter, however, is a cause for concern, especially given the 4,670 people infected by hepatitis C and the 1,200 or so infected by HIV—infections that have resulted in nearly 1,800 deaths.
At the core of this debate are the findings and recommendations of the Archer review. To my mind, the eight recommendations are broadly reasonable, and I am amazed that some, such as free prescriptions, were not introduced a long time ago. However, I am grateful to the Minister for making a statement saying that that will be reviewed. Of course, there is always a sticking point—in this case, the level of compensation, which has now been even more confused by the amount of money that we are now discussing.
Some payments have already been made. In 2004 payments of £20,000, rising to £25,000 for more advanced stages of illnesses through hepatitis C, were made through the Skipton Fund. Other payments of a similar initial sum, rising to £60,000 on a needs assessment basis, plus ongoing payments, have been made through the MacFarlane Trust. However, those two systems illustrate that some form of uniformity needs to be established. If an individual’s life is blighted, irrespective of what is causing the blight, it is important to have uniformity of payout. I am very supportive of the Hepatitis C Trust’s recommendations that the Skipton Fund’s payout should be increased to the levels paid by the MacFarlane Trust.
I support the motion in full, but—I say this with a heavy heart—with one exception. When we talk about implementing the Archer report despite the intense financial pressure on the public purse, I am mindful that in just six days’ time my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will deliver a statement that could make life-changing cuts to public expenditure. I cast an eye towards my many, many constituents, all of whom are extremely anxious about the comprehensive spending review, and I must act in the interests of all of them. It is vital that the victims of this tragedy should be allowed to live their lives as best they can—
Penny Mordaunt
My hon. Friend has mentioned the comprehensive spending review, but we should not forget that the health budget is ring-fenced and will be increased. We have also heard mention of the insurance industry and the companies that supplied blood products. I hope that he will join me in urging all Members to come forward with ideas to ensure the maximum compensation pot, whether that comes from public funds or, for example, from the £1 billion that exists in the insurance industry in orphan accounts. All Members should be contributing to that debate.
Mark Garnier
I welcome that intervention. It is incumbent on us all to work with Health Ministers to ensure that we find as much money as we can to help the victims. However, we have to be careful to ensure that compensation is not paid at the potential expense of many other special interest groups that need and deserve compensation and funding.
I am pleased that the Minister has said that the issue will be resolved, in one way or another, by the end of this year. I look forward to working with Members who have been affected by the contaminated blood scandal to ensure that the Minister comes up with a satisfactory response.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
Unlike some other hon. Members, I do not have permission to name any constituent who suffers from this predicament. However, I do hear from people who are affected, as well as from those in other constituencies in Northern Ireland, about exactly the same problems, tensions and sad experiences that other hon. Members have so articulately reflected on.
Many hon. Members in this debate have emphasised the importance of ensuring parity between sufferers from hepatitis C and sufferers from HIV, and the principle seems to be shared universally across the House. My problem, in a border constituency in Northern Ireland, is that I want to see parity between my constituents in Foyle and those in the next-door constituency of Donegal North East, who benefit from the Irish Government’s compensation scheme. That scheme had its roots in the recognition in 1995, by the then Irish Government—the rainbow coalition of John Bruton and Dick Spring—that led to a tribunal being set up in 1996, which was making significant payments long before the subsequent findings of liability by the Lindsay or Finlay tribunals, or by the hepatitis C tribunal in 2002.
Not only have we had the scandal of the health mistreatment disaster, which created this plight for so many people; there has also been the scandal of the failure of the political process to deal with it. There is no point in our talking about this or that Government; the fact is that, collectively, the political process has failed to discharge its responsibilities properly, as compared with what a nearby political process has been able to deliver. The word “scandal” is much overworked in this society, in the media and in politics, but what we are talking about is a true scandal, and we have to call a halt to it now.
In the past, we had Governments giving false excuses and making false comparisons with the Irish scheme, with false references to the issue of liability and so on. Now that has been nailed. However, after the false contrasts of the past, we cannot now have false comparisons to describe the relative or comparative costs of the schemes. Clearly we need proper differentiation between the wider package that was available in the south of Ireland, to take account of the fact that not everybody had health cover, prescription cover, medical card cover or whatever. I accept that that has to be done properly if we are to achieve true parity. However, we cannot turn round and offer the victims stone for bread, and say that now that we have finally recognised the problem and are addressing it, our excuse for not giving them what justice demands is the financial exigencies of the Exchequer.
If justice says that people are due compensation, and if we all say that this is our democratic will, then that is what should happen. If that puts a strain on the Exchequer and the rest of us, it is a strain that we have to bear, because we owe it to those who have suffered as they should not have suffered, and who have endured and struggled for so long, with so many people dying in the effort.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We have nine speakers to fit in, and I intend to call the Front-Bench speakers at 3.40 pm, which gives us 30 minutes. I ask for as much discipline as possible, as I want to ensure that everyone who wants to speak can be called.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
I should like to add my congratulations to the Backbench Business Committee on securing this debate, and to thank the hon. Members for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) and for Foyle (Mark Durkan) for their contributions. I should also like to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell (Dr Lee), who has just left the Chamber, for his thoughtful, insightful and revealing speech. I also want to thank all the victims of this scandal and their loved ones who are up in the Public Gallery. Many of you have been here since 10.30 this morning, as I have. Thank you for your patience, and I hope that in about an hour’s time, you will feel that your time here has been worth while.
Debates such as these are what I was elected for. I am passionate about this issue, and I am determined that we should stop dragging our heels and begin the process of closure in this shocking scandal. As most of us here know, the scandal was caused by the importing of factor VIII from the United States, where blood was extracted from prisoners for money by commercial companies, and not properly sterilised or treated before being used in British hospitals for the treatment of haemophiliacs.
Over the years Governments of the day had several chances to act, but they missed every time. Again and again the victims of this scandal have been betrayed. Already 1,800 of the 4,800 British haemophiliacs affected have died. Of the 1,243 people who contracted HIV, only 345 are still alive today. It is the human tragedies that are the feature of this shocking scandal.
I have had a general awareness of the scandal for only a few years. It was only when I met an amazing man from Lindley in the north of my constituency that it really hit me, and I have to admit that I have been emotionally drawn into the issue. Mr C—he wishes to remain anonymous—was dignified and polite. He told me that as a 12-year-old haemophiliac, he was injected with dirty blood products. He was injected with HIV and hepatitis C. He is still alive, thanks to his positive outlook and with the help of a cocktail of drugs. He has no anger or bitterness, just a desire to get some fairness, mainly for his family. It is also worth remembering that many of the victims were already suffering from other illnesses, or had suffered an accident, before they were infected by the contaminated blood products.
For too many decades this issue has been swept under the carpet. I came into Parliament to do the right thing, and to stand up for those who have been wronged. Many of those people are up in the Gallery now. I am not going to get bogged down by the intricacies of the Archer report, or by the financial commitments involved. I know, as many of us do, that there is little money left, which just adds to my indignation that this matter was not cleared up in better times. I shall, however, praise my Government for their action over the previous 13 days, in which they have done a lot more than was done in the previous 13 years. I am immensely proud of what has happened in the past 24 hours, including the movement by the Minister. I also welcome a number of the recommendations in the ministerial statement, which I saw this morning.
I am now going to put down my notes. I said that I had been emotionally drawn into this issue, and I now want to address the many people up in the Gallery and look them in the eye. I came into this Chamber as a Member of Parliament to do the right thing. For too long, you and your families have suffered. You have been the victims of this scandal, and I hope that I, and other Members, can do the right thing. I shall therefore support the motion later.
Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)
I am conscious that there are many hon. Members still wishing to speak, so I shall be brief. As the hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) said, it is almost inevitable, given the number of people involved in this scandal, that there will be someone in every constituency who has been affected. The issue has especial significance in my constituency, because it is home to the outstanding Lord Mayor Treloar college, where many of the victims were students in the 1970s and 1980s. There were many haemophiliacs at the college because it had an excellent in-house haemophilia centre. My constituent Mr Adrian Goodyear was one of those who was infected by contaminated blood and blood products. He wrote to me to say:
“We’ve now lost so many of our friends from the Treloar days—in fact, we stopped counting at 40—many of whom were children, teenagers or young adults at the time.”
Those words will stay with me.
I would like to pay tribute to all the tireless campaigners from the affected community for their perseverance and tenacity over many years. I congratulate them, and everyone involved on securing this historic debate on the Floor of the House. Hon. Members across the political spectrum have also been instrumental in keeping up the fight. Among them was my predecessor as East Hampshire’s MP, Michael Mates, for whom this was a special cause.
Like most others, I cannot begin to imagine the anguish and fury of the thousands of patients infected by contaminated blood. Whether we call it accident, negligence or anything else, these people came to receive treatment through our national health service—and were poisoned. For some it has been a death sentence; for others a long lingering life sentence.
There are some things in this morning’s written statement that are to be welcomed, including the Minister’s commitment to look afresh at insurance, prescription charges, and access to care services and nursing. Many hon. Members have spoken about compensation, which is, of course, fundamental. It has become clear through this debate—for the reasons expounded by the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell)—that today’s motion, as currently worded, is not the best basis on which to move forward. We all look to the Minister to move forward towards a just settlement that will allow those people and their families, who have suffered so much, to reach some sort of closure.
For about the next 30 seconds I want to focus on a different aspect—apology. One of the worst aspects of this whole sad affair is that so many, including those children from Treloar, died without anybody saying, “We’re sorry.” That makes me very uncomfortable. It is not about assigning blame. There could be—indeed, there has been—long debate over the technicalities of liability or otherwise, who knew what and when, how quickly things could have changed and so forth. Regardless of those specifics, surely the victims of this disaster are owed the dignity of a proper apology. I have read the expressions of sympathy, but I do not think they quite go far enough. The events predate most current Members of the House, and I am not suggesting that a Minister should come to the Dispatch Box to take, or indeed assign, blame. I do think, however, that it is not too much to ask to give the victims the dignity of hearing a Minister of the Crown come to the Floor of this House and say, “Yes, we are truly sorry.”
Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)
I echo others this afternoon in saying how much I appreciate the opportunity to participate in this debate—a debate should that have happened many years ago. I also reiterate the tributes to the victims and their families, some of whom are watching our debate. The tragedy of contaminated blood is undoubtedly one of the biggest medical disasters in the history of the NHS. It is important to establish how this medical catastrophe was allowed to happen, and to protect those whose lives were devastated as a result.
I recently met a delegation of people who had suffered through the Equitable Life disaster. Although I have every sympathy with their plight, today’s debate puts that matter into perspective because we are talking not about the loss of life savings, but about the loss of life itself, loss of livelihood and of the chance to grow old, and losing the chance to become a parent and see one’s children grow up.
It seems wholly appropriate that people whose lives have been devastated by this disaster should be fairly compensated. After today’s discussions about how much it will cost, I very much look forward to hearing the Minister speak later about whether this is affordable. I do not believe, however, that the relatives are purely after money. As George Santayana said:
“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
That explains why this debate is so important, as it ensures that the tragedy will not be forgotten and, with the help of Lord Archer’s recommendations, that it will not be repeated.
One of those affected was from my Gosport constituency—a haemophiliac who had just a 10-day window of NHS treatment for his condition, but those 10 days proved to be his death sentence, as he was infected with both HIV and hepatitis C. This man suffered in every way as a result of his infection. He lost the chance to father children and to further his career; he suffered pain, humiliation, poverty, prejudice and, ultimately, death. His family lived a lie to avoid the stigma of HIV, and were therefore cut off from the possibility of much-needed support from friends and neighbours. His stepdaughter talks of a “lost childhood”. Such was, and in many cases still is, the fear and prejudice in relation to HIV that sufferers whom I have met who were open about their illnesses had their homes daubed with red paint and their children hounded from their schools.
That man’s family suffered financial hardship. As he was unable to obtain life assurance, his widow was left not only a single mother but with a mortgage to pay. He died on Christmas Eve 1998 at the age of just 40. He died of a life-threatening condition and three terminal diseases. He died struggling not just against his illness but against huge financial worries and fear for the future of his family, and under the oppressive burden of injustice.
Now, 12 years later, his widow is still fighting against that injustice. She talks of her fight against the sense that somehow the life of this man, her husband, did not count, because no Government seemed to care. Her simple desire is not to wake up every morning of her life and think of that. She talks of the frustrating myths that prevail. One is that victims were compensated. The truth is that the Skipton Fund drew a line in the sand—an arbitrary date in 2003 after which relatives of people who died were given small ex gratia payments. My constituent died in 1998. His widow was told that her husband had died five years too early; to her mind he had died 45 years too early.
Today in the House we have a fantastic opportunity. The contaminated blood tragedy has finally been granted a platform, and we as elected Members have a responsibility in the coming months to ensure that we fight for a just outcome for the tainted blood community. That tiny community of sick, bereaved and dying people, many of whom are living in poverty, will go on fighting no matter what the outcome today. We as parliamentarians should feel humbled by their bravery and take up the fight on their behalf.
Martin Luther King once said:
“when you are forever fighting a degenerating sense of ‘nobodiness’— then you will understand why we find it difficult to wait.”
That is how this little community goes on: waiting and dying, dying and waiting.
Whatever happens as a result of the vote today, we must ultimately put an end to this. No amount of money can bring back those who have suffered and died—their dead will remain dead, their losses will remain lost—but we can help them to shed the burden of injustice and regain financial security. My hope is that my constituent will one day again be able to wake up in the morning knowing that each day is a day to be loved, a day to be lived, and not a day to be fought.
Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
One of the first principles of any health care is “first do no harm”. I think it was Florence Nightingale who said that. I pay tribute to all hon. Members who have shown today how much we care about what has happened. I echo the words of the many who have said that we owe a huge apology, as parliamentarians, on behalf of the Department of Health, which, inadvertently or otherwise, has caused so much tragedy to so many people who have suffered.
I also pay tribute to my constituent Stuart, who I am very glad to see is well enough to be here. He first came to my surgery a couple of months ago with the heartbreaking story of his own situation as a haemophiliac infected with hepatitis C and HIV, and now suffering from advanced liver disease. He has become used to seeing friends and family dying; he has become used to the fact that he often cannot afford to go to their funerals; and he has become used to popping around to someone’s house for a drink only to find two weeks later that that person has died from, for instance, a brain tumour or liver cancer. It is hard to imagine.
I warmly welcome the ministerial statement. I spoke to my hon. Friend the Minister specifically about my constituents, and I can assure Members on both sides of the House that she is as genuinely sad and sorry about the situation as any of us here. I urged her, on behalf of my constituents, to do three things. First, I urged her to do whatever she could to ensure that they achieve closure. This has gone on for so long. We may not be able to give these people everything that they want, but let us at least put them in a position that will enable them to say, “We have got enough: we can take off our campaigning boots and start to enjoy what time is left to us and to our families.” Secondly, I urged her to try to give time to all who want to speak to her during the review period between now and Christmas, so that they can tell her their stories, put their side of case and ask her to help them. Thirdly, I urged her to try to ensure that every possible step was taken to prevent anything like this from ever happening again. This was not a deliberate action on anyone’s part. It was, however, caused by a lack of joined-up thinking and a failure to take opportunities as they arose.
Like all Members, my heart truly goes out to those affected, but I feel confident that my hon. Friend the Minister will take every opportunity to put right the wrongs of past generations. It is a great shame that the last Government did not do that when our economic situation was better and that it is therefore left to us to try to sort this problem out at a time of great economic hardship. I assure the Minister that she has my support in her efforts to put this right.
Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
I will be as brief as possible. I have heard the stories of my own constituents and I have also listened to many other similarly tragic stories, and that shows the magnitude of this problem throughout the country. I welcome the fact that Opposition Members recognise that this has been an issue for successive Governments, and that they regret that it was not tackled in the previous 13 years and we are therefore now left in the position of needing to try to solve this enormous problem.
I also want to thank the Front-Bench team for having taken this matter so seriously. It has looked into it and, for the first time, has committed to taking action. We now have a timetable in place, and we will know the direction we are going in by Christmas. That is an enormous step forward. I am grateful that we now at least have a plan and a direction, and I hope we can achieve the right outcome.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) for being brief and thereby letting me contribute to the debate, and I shall be brief as well. Like many others, I welcome the movement from the Minister over the past couple of days.
I want to make three points. I would like the Minister to comment on them in her concluding remarks, and I would certainly welcome their being addressed in her review. The first is the difference between how this problem has been dealt with in this country and other countries. A lot has been said about Ireland, but Ireland is not the only country in question: there is also Japan, Canada and Italy. It has been said that past Governments have failed to address the problem and that is true, but it is only Governments of our country who have failed. I would like to know where our response to the problem will rank in comparison with that of other countries, and I hope we will finish at least halfway up the international league table.
Secondly, I want to draw attention to the distinction we have persistently drawn between hepatitis C sufferers and HIV sufferers. When I first looked into this issue, I simply did not understand that, time and again, whenever a compensation payment was made we drew that distinction. People with hepatitis C are unable to work in the same way as those with HIV, and people with hepatitis C are also dying prematurely in the same way. We really have to stop drawing that distinction. It has even been drawn latterly in respect of the Archer report. The annual payment now being made to HIV sufferers is, I think, £12,800, whereas hepatitis C sufferers, who have about the same amount of discomfort, have merely got a review in five years’ time. That is not right.
My third point is about money, about which a number of interesting comments have been made, in particular by my hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell (Dr Lee). The cost of matching the sums we have given to the HIV folk in payments to the hepatitis C folk is 3,500 people multiplied by £12,800 a year. That comes to £40 million a year. That is the cost of implementing Archer in the same way for the hepatitis C people as for the HIV people. I would be extremely interested to hear what my Front-Bench colleague has to say about that, and I would like it to be addressed in the review. How can we reconcile that sum of £40 million a year that will not be for ever—unfortunately the number of these people is declining—with the sum of £3 billion?
Finally, let me say that this is not just about money. Had it been just about money, we would have fixed the problem 10 years ago when more money was going into the national health service than it was able to spend. This is about principle, and we have the chance to sort it out.
I also regret that the motion refers to a comparison with Ireland. That country does give eight to 10 times more money than we have been able to find, but other countries come in between ours and Ireland on that list. We should not be constrained to signing up to a one-country approach, but we have to get this fixed.
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
Thank you for allowing me to speak in this historic debate, Mr Deputy Speaker. Like so many of my colleagues, this issue has been brought to my attention by the impact it has had on the life of a constituent—in my case, the constituent is Colette Wintle.
Colette was born in 1959 and was diagnosed with haemophilia in 1962. When she went to have her tonsils out in 1976, she was given American blood products which first caused her infection with hepatitis. In 1982, at a hospital in Kent, she was given factor VIII concentrate, which infected her with hepatitis C. In 1985, at a hospital in London, she was once again given treatment with blood products, which made her very ill with hepatitis C, although mercifully she did not contract HIV. Subsequently, she has been so weak with illness that she had to stop work at the age of 38. She has contracted cirrhosis of the liver and lives in fear of developing liver cancer in her damaged liver.
As we all know, it is not possible for doctors to undo the damage to Colette’s health and it is not possible for her ever to be adequately compensated for the harm that was done to her by the infected blood products. The question is what we should do now, as a society, to compensate people such as Colette and her family. We have heard about the Skipton Fund, and I think that everyone in this debate acknowledges that the payments of a maximum of £45,000 are not adequate to compensate someone for that treatment.
We have also talked a lot about different numbers, and I wish to help the House. As 4,672 people have been infected over the years, a payment of £1 million to each of them would involve £4.672 billion. A payment of £100,000 to every sufferer would involve £467.2 million—I believe I have those figures right. That puts the £3 billion cost into context; it would work out to be £642,000 per individual. Colette has not been able to work since she was 38 and has had to pay for her NHS prescriptions. She looks ahead to the future, but her general practitioner is unable to assure her that she will have access to specialist nursing at home if her condition worsens.
I welcome what the Minister said in her statement and the fact that she will look urgently at a number of issues. However, will she clarify whether the compensation that will be recommended by the review will reflect the length of time that individuals have had to suffer and been unable to work because of the illness? Will the review also examine something that is being debated a lot with the Department for Work and Pensions: what happens when an individual is being assessed for their ability to work? Can we agree in this House today that it would be good if we exempted all these individuals—the 2,700 surviving patients—from any further assessment of their capacity to work?
No money could ever compensate these victims for what has happened. Their health can never be repaired, but let us ensure that as a result of this debate and of this inquiry we ensure, once and for all, that the patients do not experience further financial disadvantage from this terrible situation.
Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)
I thank the Backbench Business Committee for tabling this motion. It is vital to realise that when the noble Lord Owen first took action on this issue as a Minister the year was 1975—the year of my birth, which shows just how long this issue has been current and how long it has not been dealt with by Governments of all political persuasions.
I understand that when medical treatment does not go according to plan—when something goes wrong and disability or a chronic condition results from it—a wound is opened that is very difficult to heal. It cannot be healed by money alone, although compensation is important. Intense frustrations are released. We have heard talk of a lost childhood, for example, or of what might have been or never would be, and of early deaths. Such events affect lives totally in a way that many of us cannot really understand.
That is why I welcome unambiguously the written ministerial statement, not just for what it contains but for the fact that it deals with issues such as travel insurance and access to insurance. I am not going to get hung up on what the meaning of the word “access” might or might not be in the view of the Minister. The fact that we are covering those things is what matters. Many haemophiliacs want to lead as ordinary a life as possible. We need to understand the gap between the lives that ordinary people lead and the effect of haemophilia and other conditions on people’s ability to lead an ordinary life. That, to me, is crucial.
I made an effort to read the Minister’s statement before I came into the Chamber—many hon. Members might have found that a useful exercise. However, having read it carefully, I noted one omission—or, perhaps, one thing that I could not find. It was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage), but I want to stress it a bit more: it is the Skipton Fund and the arbitrary cut-off date of 28 August 2003 for payments. I was not clear from the statement whether that would be readdressed in the Minister’s review.
I came into politics largely out of frustration at the poor quality of public policy making in this country under all parties—I just happened to pick the Conservative party as the vehicle from which to express my frustration. There is a useful quotation in the briefing documentation with which we were provided, which I want to read as quickly as I can, about the Skipton Fund. It is from the Department of Health and says:
“The announcement of a scheme on 29 August 2003 occurred after the Secretary of State had revisited this issue…The difficult decision not to extend the scheme to people who had died before this date meant that it became an unavoidable cut-off point. We realise that the circumstances are not ideal, but have attempted to provide a pragmatic solution.”
I have seen a fair amount of civil-service speak in my time, but that is as near as I have come to finding one that admits, “This is an awful decision. We know that it is an awful decision, but tough. You will have to live with it.”
I urge the Minister to try to include a review of this arbitrary cut-off date in the work that she is doing in the run-up to Christmas. I unambiguously welcome the progress that we are making, as everybody from all parties should. In particular, I ask for clarity on the figure of £3 billion. If there is a loose zero floating around this debate, it will make it very hard for hon. Members fully to understand the motion and the issues before us, so I ask for clarity.
Finally, the number of people who have wanted to speak has underlined the importance that Members attach to the subject. We will pay very close attention come Christmas to the outcome of the review. I am sure that all of us in the Chamber and in the Public Gallery will hope that we will finally get the closure that so many people want. It will be difficult to achieve, but we need it.
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
Thank you for allowing me to speak for a couple of minutes, Mr Deputy Speaker. The actions at the root of this debate take us back many years. For many of us—including me—they take us back to a period that stirs great emotions. It was a period when an illness was ignored, when people’s deaths and suffering were marked by stigma, when Governments were in disarray and, too often, in denial and when life-changing mistakes were being made.
Everyone in this House commends the campaigners on this issue for their vigilance and persistence over the years. The debate relates to a judgment between principle and practicality in the operation of our Government, but also to individual lives, such as that of a family that lives in Kempston in my constituency. The issue of principle appears to be accepted and clear to all sides: a group of our own citizens, who had already suffered greatly, have been denied justice for many—too many—years. It is the responsibility of all hon. Members to challenge the Government to bring that period of injustice to a close. If December it is, Minister, then December it must be.
The main practical argument concerns cost, which is wrapped in the real pressures of affordability given the current pressures on the public purse. The written ministerial statement contains welcome indications for those affected by hepatitis, but I urge the Minister to consider the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) in clearing up other anomalies.
My constituent, Lisa, wrote to me urging me to attend this debate. She stated:
“We must trust in the democratic process to enable us to bring about change”.
It is my honour to represent her today. She wrote movingly about how she lost her husband when he was just 32—her son was just two years old at the time; about the pain as his body struggled in his failing battle with HIV and hepatitis; about the consequential financial pressures of losing her home; and about the sadness of a family life denied but which lives on in her heart and that of her son.
Lord Winston described the issue of contaminated blood as “a disaster”, which is surely the right description. Yesterday, we witnessed on our television screens another country come together to overcome the consequences of another disaster and painstakingly rescue 33 heroes who had suffered entrapment below ground and return them to their loved ones. Too many of the heroes who have fought for justice cannot be here today and cannot be returned to their loved ones. However, many of them are here, and many of the loved ones of those affected by this disaster are present, too.
It is time for the Government to show their mettle and demonstrate their principles, if not their culpability. I wait with anticipation to hear the Minister’s reply and place my trust and that of my constituents in her resolve.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I shall move on to the Front-Bench speakers. I have the pleasure of calling Diane Abbott. It has taken since 1987 for her to reach the Front Bench, which is a long time, so we look forward to this experience.
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)
We can see from the attendance of this debate how seriously the entire House takes this historic injustice. There is no more significant subject for me to discuss in my first speech at the Dispatch Box.
We are all aware that the eyes of the haemophilia community are on us this afternoon. As my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) said, this historic injustice represents a failure of the entire political class. This matter has been a long-standing concern of mine. It concerns a small community, which, as we have heard, consists of fewer than 5,000 people, of the sick, the bereaved and the dying. I have long thought that the role of a Back Bencher is to be a voice for the voiceless.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) on moving the motion with such passion and my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), whose brainchild it is. I note the fact, which is not sufficiently recognised, that without the important reforms that took place at the end of the previous Parliament, which enabled Back Benchers to set the agenda for this House, we would not be having this debate.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) on her leadership of the Backbench Business Committee. I agree, not for the first time, with the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) in saying that these Back-Bench debates should not be treated as second-class Opposition days. Above all, I congratulate the campaigners on this issue, who over 25 years have made it possible for this historic debate to take place.
We have heard some excellent contributions from hon. Members on both sides of the House. One cannot touch on this subject without referring to the years of work by the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott). Many hon. Members have spoken movingly about their constituents, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), my hon. Friends the Members for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram), for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter), for Islwyn (Chris Evans) and for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz), and the hon. Members for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti), for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) and for Dartford (Gareth Johnson).
My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) made the important point that the victims include not only the individuals struck down by those illnesses and tainted blood, but whole families. My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) said that our Government—the outgoing Government—should have dealt with the matter. My right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) called it one of the major injustices of our time. My right hon. and well-respected Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) said that there should be humility on both sides of the House.
I welcome the review announced by the Minister and the terms of reference. For the avoidance of doubt, I have read the terms of reference, and I shall leave it to her to speak about them in detail. The Opposition particularly welcome the focus on the problems of sufferers of hepatitis C, as well as the raising of issues of insurance and access to nursing care and care in the community. I urge her to conclude the report before the end of the year if possible and, as she will understand, I would be interested to see the costings behind the questioned £3 billion figure that the Government put in their amendment.
Finally, I should like to commit myself to working with Members across the House to get the best possible outcome for the people—some of whom many of us have met today—who have suffered so cruelly, so unfairly and for so long.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anne Milton)
Let me start by congratulating the hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) on her new post. We have something in common, inasmuch as I worked in Hackney for most of my life before I entered politics.
This has been a moving debate and I, too, welcome this opportunity to discuss these issues and to air people’s situations openly in the House. The story of those who have been affected by contaminated blood and its products is a dreadful human tragedy. I wonder whether, but can only hope that, an expression of sympathy from me can go some way towards making a difference to those affected. I am deeply sorry about the events that led to the infection of people who were treated with blood products with HIV and hepatitis C.
We always welcome new knowledge, but with that knowledge often comes deep regret about events that happened in the past. If we only knew then what we know now. We should always make sure, individually and as Governments, that we have the humility to learn from our past. I thank hon. Members for raising so many issues—about the terrible loss of life, of course, and about stigma and the additional cost of things such as dentistry. Yes, I would happily meet a delegation of hon. Members and my door will be open during this period of review.
I shall do all I can, in the time and on the terms available, to make sure that people’s views on access to psychological support are heard. I shall not be able to deal with all the points that have been raised today, but officials will come back to hon. Members, who, if they have further questions, can always contact me.
Diana R. Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
Will the Minister address an issue that has not been raised—the medical assessments that people on benefits now have to go through under the new welfare reform programme? Will she consider making representations to her colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions about passporting this group of claimants so that they do not have to go through medical assessments again?
Anne Milton
The hon. Lady makes an important point that has crossed my mind already. I shall talk to colleagues and officials in the DWP to make sure that that issue is addressed.
It is important to put on record some relevant events. In the early 1960s, the life expectancy of someone with haemophilia was less than 40 years. In the early 1970s, the development of a revolutionary new treatment—clotting factor concentrates produced from large pools of human plasma—led to what was then considered an exciting new era of treatment. It offered the potential to extend significantly the length and quality of the lives of patients with haemophilia. The risk of viral transmission through blood and blood products was recognised at that time, particularly the risk of post-transfusion hepatitis. Generally though, the consensus within the scientific community was that the risk of using multiple donors was low and worth taking. Significantly, at that time, the Haemophilia Society said, in a bulletin published in September 1983, that
“the advantages of treatment far outweigh any possible risk”.
Sadly, we know how wrong that was. Tragically, the society was wrong and a devastating blow was dealt. The initial hope was ultimately replaced by the dreadful realisation that, although lives were extended, almost 5,000 patients with haemophilia in the UK and thousands more throughout the world had been infected with hepatitis C, HIV or indeed both.
Many of those people have since lost their lives to those conditions, and more continue to do so by the week, and we should pay tribute to the many campaigners who have died. I fully understand the sense of grievance and anger that people feel. I am not in that position, and it is impossible to know fully what it feels like, but I do understand some of it. I also know that for some time, whatever the Government do, sadly it will be far too little, far too late.
At the time, however, no other treatment was available. The UK blood supply and the only alternative, a product called cryoprecipitate, were both contaminated. The only real treatment, therefore, was no treatment at all, and that was the case not only in the UK, but in countries throughout the world. At the time, France, Germany, Japan and the United States all took a similar view, which was widely held by the scientific community throughout the world.
When those treatments were first introduced, we had a very different view also of the risks from hepatitis C. It was not until the mid-1980s that scientific and medical literature began to reflect increasing concern about the seriousness of disease associated with hepatitis C, and I, as somebody who was working as a nurse at the time, remember it well.
Dr Pugh
The Minister will be aware that in the Government’s response to the Archer report, certain documents are described as “misplaced”—they no longer exist or can be found. Do they have any bearing whatever on the analysis, and if they were discovered would they correct it in any way?
Anne Milton
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. We are talking about a long time ago; that is the trouble. I know that campaigners have been concerned about cover-ups, and that not all the documents have been released. I assure him that officials have told me that all documents have been released, but somewhere in the back of a cupboard, somebody at some point might discover more. It is a mistake to think that there is any conspiracy, however. I do believe, in all honesty, that previous Governments and the current Government have done, and continue to do, all that they can to ensure that all information is in the public domain.
As the consensus on the virus developed and technological advances occurred, the Government and the NHS moved quite quickly to address the risks. Heat treatment was introduced in 1985, and that effectively killed the hepatitis and HIV viruses. Validated tests for screening blood donations were also introduced. Since then, Governments have introduced a number of important safeguards to protect the blood supply, not least, as we heard today, from newer risks such as new variant CJD. We carefully assess, and shall continue to assess, all new evidence as it comes to light, and we now have EU directives that set standards of quality and safety.
I fully understand again the financial difficulties that many of those affected by contaminated blood products face. I have met some of them, and they have told me in some detail of their extraordinary experiences of living with the aftermath of infection. Not only were many of them infected, but they went on to infect their partners. They are, understandably, very concerned about their own and their family’s financial security, and they look to the Government to provide a degree of certainty in the years ahead.
Going—what may feel like—cap in hand to the state is demeaning, I know, but it is worth laying out the financial settlements that are currently available. Those infected with HIV receive a flat-rate payment of £12,800 per year, and they may also be eligible for additional discretionary payments. In the year ending April 2010, the average total payment to an individual infected with HIV was £17,400, although of course some received less and some received more. Those infected with hepatitis C are eligible to receive an initial one-off lump sum payment of £20,000 when they develop chronic infection. Despite contracting the virus, some people will make a full recovery, but many do not and go on to develop serious liver disease. For that group, there is a second one-off payment of £25,000. All those payments are tax-free and not used when calculating an individual’s eligibility for state benefits. Therefore, if they were unable to work for health reasons they would receive those benefits, but I take the point made by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana R. Johnson).
The independent public inquiry on NHS-supplied contaminated blood and blood products, chaired by Lord Archer of Sandwell, investigated the circumstances surrounding the supply of blood products. It made several recommendations, the majority of which are in place in one way or another. However, a small number of recommendations have not been implemented. These primarily relate to aspects of the ex gratia payments, free prescriptions in England, and access to insurance.
I have instigated a review of those recommendations to see what more can be done. I know that hon. Members would love me to finish that review before Christmas. I will do what I can in the time available; I know that time is of the essence. The review will be conducted by Department of Health officials, but with the support of relevant clinical experts and external groups. The terms of reference should be in the Library. At this stage, let me put on record that I will place in the Library how the costs of implementing the Irish scheme in the UK were arrived at. I know that that has caused some concern, but I will come back to it, because time is very short.
I do not have time to go into detail on what happened in Ireland, but it is important to place on the record that in an article in The Irish Times—I will ensure that this is also in the Library—Brian Cowen, then Minister for Health and Children in the Republic of Ireland, and currently Taoiseach, confirmed that the Irish Government knew in 1995 that the Blood Transfusion Service Board had been negligent and had attempted to conceal that fact.
Mr Slaughter
Will the Minister deal with the two points that I raised in my remarks? First, do the terms of reference permit the inquiry body to consider the issue of hepatitis C in it widest sense—that is, to give it full parity, including in relation to the ex gratia payments of £12,800 a year for HIV? Secondly, given that she says that there are only a small number of recommendations to be addressed, why does not the new inquiry consider all those remaining issues, including the level of ex gratia payments?
Anne Milton
I thank the hon. Gentleman. I will admit to a certain amount of ignorance. I do not know what I can do, but I will do everything I can within what I am allowed to do. It is important to say that I am very keen to get on with this. The danger with an inquiry that extends its remit is that it drags on and on, and this issue has dragged on for more than 25 years.
No fault has ever been found here in the UK—a fact that has been tested in the courts. In 1988, a group of haemophilia patients and their families sued the Government of the day. They settled their case outside court, midway through the proceedings, as their solicitors had advised that they had very limited chance of success.
Whatever happened all those years ago does not change the facts of today. In the United Kingdom, decisions over tax and spend are made here in this Parliament. The decisions of the Irish Parliament, like those of any other national Parliament, have no authority here in the UK. The debate on contaminated blood products has continued for many years, and I would like to close my remarks by again offering my sympathy and expressing my deep regret at the events, and by saying how sorry I am that this ever happened.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
Does the Minister accept that the nervousness that follows her logic of not looking at other countries means that on a whole range of compensation issues the Government are now simply saying, “We are washing our hands of our responsibilities”?
Anne Milton
I am not washing my hands of any responsibility—I am taking full responsibility. I am determined to see this review completed by Christmas within the terms that I have laid out.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) summed up the implications of voting for the motion more eloquently than I ever can. We cannot commit to aligning our compensation payments to those made in Ireland, and we cannot support the motion.
This debate has been useful in two ways. It has given hon. Members a chance finally to let the depths of this tragedy be heard. It is absolutely dreadful that no time has been found to debate this issue on the Floor of the House before. Secondly, it has enabled us to discuss how we can move forward. I want everyone, including hon. Members and campaigners, to be able to make their views known and know that they will be taken into account. I want the review to be dealt with openly and honestly, with clarity, without party politics, with humility and with empathy.
I cannot turn the clock back and change events, but I will do what I can in the time I am in office to bring some closure to those affected.
Mr Robinson
I think the whole House would agree that this has been an outstanding debate and has very much justified the new process for nominating Back-Bench business. I hope that in future we will have many such debates on important issues, debated in the same spirit as Members in all parts of the House have shown today in discussing a non-party political issue.
In essence, the heart of the motion, which I will press, is that an apology is due to the victims. I know that it is very difficult for Governments to give apologies, and the Minister came very close to giving one in saying that she much regretted what had happened. If it had been given in the same spirit as the Prime Minister’s statement on the Saville report on Bloody Sunday, it would have been different, but it needed something a little more.
The second important element at the heart of the motion is the question of compensation. Some Members have said that they cannot vote for the motion because of the reference to Ireland, which is a foreign jurisdiction, and concerns about where we might go from there. However, whatever we had put in the motion, we would have had the same approach from the Government. Members can try to salve their consciences in that way if they want, but the stark fact remains that the victims feel that they need an appropriate minimum level of compensation. They have asked us strongly to stick with the motion and put it to Members. We are going to put a marker down on how we think the Minister’s review should come out.
I do not doubt the Minister’s sincerity, and she has a long and distinguished history in the medical profession, but it is hardly an auspicious beginning for the Government to table an amendment intended to void the Back-Bench motion of its substance, then get their Whips up complaining to Mr Speaker about it, especially when it contains a figure that is out by a factor of three. The costs involved would not be more than £3 billion, as we learned from the distinguished hon. Member for Bracknell (Dr Lee), who is a medical practitioner. He said that they would be more like £1 billion. I cannot imagine how the Government have allowed that figure, which is not just salient but material to the debate, to continue to be discussed without correction.
Anne Milton
I have said that I will place in the Library details of how those figures were arrived at. They came about not through a typo in Lord Archer’s report but through careful consideration. The comparison with Ireland is difficult to make because the circumstances of those receiving compensation there are different, but that is not the salient point of the motion—it is whether we should align ourselves with a scheme set up by Ireland.
Mr Robinson
That is not the central point of the motion at all; it is utterly irrelevant to the debate. The debate is about justice for the victims of a terrible disaster, and whatever we had put in the motion we would have had the same attitude from the Government, which after all is the one that we have had from all previous Administrations. When I opened the debate I said that that we now had a golden opportunity for the Secretary of State to break with the past. He bears no responsibility for what went on, unlike some of us, including me when I was at the Treasury and the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) when he was at the Department of Health. The Secretary of State had a golden opportunity to put the past behind us and say, “A great injustice was done and a terrible misjudgment was made.” Several Members have made it clear that the suffering of the victims and their families goes on, and he should have said that the Government would now take steps to correct it. To say that it would cost £3 billion when it would actually be less than £1 billion is, as I said, hardly an auspicious start.
Anne Milton
May I reiterate that recommendation 6(h) of the Archer report states that
“payments should be at least the equivalent of those payable under the Scheme which applies at any time in Ireland”?
Mr Robinson
I can assure the Minister that we will not withdraw the motion. It is not encouraging for us to put our faith in her when all she does is hide behind a technicality.
Dr Phillip Lee
I want to be clear about the point I made earlier. I await some clarification on the figures, but I will not support the hon. Gentleman’s motion because it states that “a principal recommendation of the…Inquiry” is that compensation is based on the Irish compensation scheme. Am I right?
Mr Robinson
No motion of the House is ever wholly correct. I have never voted for a motion with which I totally agree—[Interruption.] I hate to say it, but we are reverting to party politics on an issue that has nothing to do with it. No motion is ever perfect. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are debating a principle. We should recognise that there should be much more compensation—[Interruption.] If Conservative Members think that this is a laughing matter, I will leave it to them and their consciences.
Mark Durkan
Did my hon. Friend note that the Minister said that as well as placing in the Library an explanation of how the figures were arrived at, she would place a copy of an article from The Irish Times, quoting Brian Cowen, who was then Minister of Health in the Republic? Brian Cowen became Minister of Health in 1997, but the compensation scheme in the south began in 1996 and issued significant payments then. There are misleading versions of what subsequent tribunals said and what was admitted by the Irish Government, but the Irish compensation scheme was not based on that admission of liability or that knowledge.
Mr Robinson
I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. Perhaps the Minister would like to say whether that is correct. Perhaps she does not know. The debate is degenerating into the to and fro of Opposition against Government interchanges. Let me assure the Health Secretary and the Minister that no one who has taken part in the debate really wants that.
The simple fact of why we are proposing this motion and resisting the Government amendment is that we are pressing for a recognition that a gross injustice has taken place and that it must be put right. That will involve high levels of compensation. We beg the Government not to believe the figures that are automatically produced to exaggerate the situation.
Mr Tom Clarke
Does my hon. Friend recall that when many of us were fighting for compensation for retired miners, we were given exactly the same arguments against—for 18 years? The question today is whether we are prepared to wait that long for a solution to this problem.
Mr Robinson
Again, my right hon. Friend makes the telling point that we have waited too long, but the problem will go on for longer. Why is the Minister defending further delay? Why is she defending £3 billion, and why is she giving out incorrect information? Let us not have a debate on that basis. We want Back Benchers in this Back-Bench debate to vote for the motion in my name because it does some justice to those who, for many years, have been condemned to a slow, lingering and very unpleasant death.
Question put.
Anti-Slavery Day
(14 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the matter of Anti-Slavery Day.
It is probably close to 200 years since this House has debated slavery. As the chairman of the all-party human trafficking group, it is my great pleasure to open this debate, but it should not have been me opening it; it should have been the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart). I congratulate her on her pitch to the Backbench Business Committee and her success in securing this debate. However, once she had done so, she was immediately put into the shadow Government. She has risen like a phoenix from the ashes, and is now sitting by the Dispatch Box to answer for the Opposition. I congratulate her not only on securing this debate, but on her promotion.
William Wilberforce is a name that is synonymous with anti-slavery. In 1807, led by Wilberforce, an Act for the abolition of the slave trade was passed by Parliament. In 1833, the Slavery Abolition Act was passed. Why, therefore, are we here debating slavery, more than 200 years after the abolition of the slave trade? Perhaps we are celebrating the success of William Wilberforce; or are we here to congratulate ourselves that no slavery remains within the United Kingdom? We cannot do that. Slavery and trafficking are still far too common an occurrence. A frightening statistic is that there are estimated to be more than 27 million slaves in the world today. One in eight of them are in Europe, and at least 10,000 of them are here in the United Kingdom. How can that be true? When I walk around London or my constituency, I do not see slaves sweeping the streets or working in the fields. The fact that the problem is not as visible as it was in the time of William Wilberforce does not mean that it is not as important or as serious.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman rightly paid tribute to the work of my hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart), but will he join me in paying tribute to the work of Anthony Steen, his predecessor as Chairman of the all-party parliamentary group on human trafficking, for all his excellent work on bringing to the House’s attention the slavery that is human trafficking? I am sure that he was about to mention him in his speech.
Mr Bone
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend—I shall call him my right hon. Friend today—for that intervention, but he will have to wait just a little longer before I mention the former Member for Totnes.
The three most lucrative criminal activities in the world are those associated with narcotics and with firearms, and the trafficking of humans. The first two criminal activities are well documented and vast sums of money are rightly invested in catching the criminals involved. Why then is the trafficking of humans—modern-day slavery—so badly documented, and why is so little invested in the fight against it? It takes place on the same scale as narcotics and firearms offences, and that gap needs to be addressed.
So where are all those slaves, and whom does this affect? In the United Kingdom, the main victims are women and children. They are often tricked into coming to this country, usually with a promise of some sort of job. When they arrive here, they are often locked up and forced to have sex with up to 30 men a day. I shall give the House an example. I met a 14-year-old Kenyan girl who had been trafficked into this country by a middle-aged white man on a passport that did not bear her name and did not have her picture on it. She was taken to Liverpool, locked in a house and forced to have sex with numerous men. Luckily, she escaped after a few days and was helped by a national charity. She was one of the lucky ones, if you can call it lucky to endure what she had had to. She managed to escape, but how many girls do not manage to do so? How many girls are locked in houses such as those while we are debating this issue today? Even if there were just one, that would be one too many, but there is not just one; there are thousands.
We have some fantastic non-governmental organisations working with trafficked victims, including ECPAT UK, the POPPY project, the Human Trafficking Foundation, the Bromley Trust, the Tudor Trust, and Kalayaan, to name but a few. Their work must not stop. I have one single goal, however: I want all those NGOs and charities to become redundant, because they are no longer needed. That is my aim. As I mentioned, they do fantastic work with trafficked victims, but I believe that prevention is the key.
How do we prevent human trafficking? That is a very difficult question to answer. I believe that making the public more aware of the issue is a good first step. On 18 October, the UK will celebrate anti-slavery day for the first time. I would like to take this opportunity to thank my former colleague, Anthony Steen, for working tirelessly to make the Anti-slavery Day Act 2010 his lasting legacy to the House. He pioneered an approach to human trafficking that I am very happy to follow. Quite simply, he put modern-day slavery on the parliamentary map. Anti-slavery day will mark out what we all hope will be the beginning of the end of slavery in the United Kingdom and make the public aware of the gravity of the problem.
What can be done? First, we need to identify victims better. Very few ever approach local authorities to complain, and even if they do, those authorities might not realise that the problem has resulted from trafficking and modern-day slavery. The police are on the front line of trafficking. The individual police officer on the beat is the best and probably the first person to meet a trafficked victim, but does every police officer know what to do, how to help and to whom they should send the victim? We need to help the police and make them more aware of trafficked women. There needs to be a national protocol to help victims.
We also need to enhance the border control system and stop the traffickers from bringing in the victims in the first place. That is the very best way to end trafficking. The UK must be a country that it is just not worth the traffickers using.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
Will my hon. Friend join me in paying tribute to some of the excellent work done by the Metropolitan police in combating the evil of human trafficking in London? I echo the point I believe he is making well—I seek to reinforce it—about the lack of awareness and training in other police forces across the country. They will often come to dealing with a problem such as prostitution without having the wherewithal to understand, albeit with the best will in the world, that it is linked to the evil of slavery and human trafficking.
Mr Bone
My hon. Friend puts the case perfectly and I entirely agree with him.
Returning to the point about making this country one into which traffickers do not want to come, traffickers are interested only in the money. We need to make it so difficult for them that they do not want to try to operate here. That is why the coalition Government’s new proposal for a border police provides an opportunity to put trafficking right at the heart of this new initiative. Trafficking must stop, but it will stop only with the help of everyone—here and across the nation. William Wilberforce did not pass the legislation to abolish the slave trade and to abolish slavery for political gain or to achieve votes; he realised there was a fundamental problem that needed to be addressed.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
I welcome my hon. Friend’s comments. One difficulty dealing with trafficked women is that they often believe that they are here illegally. They do not go to the police because they are terrified that, if they do, terrible things will happen and the police will prosecute them. What does my hon. Friend think should be the immigration or legal status of people who find themselves trafficked here? Clearly, they are not asylum seekers in the accepted meaning of the term, so how do they fit into the immigration system?
Mr Bone
I am conscious of time and of the fact that many other Members want to contribute to the debate. I shall wind up shortly, but to answer my hon. Friend’s point, these people are victims and they should be looked after; there are organisations such as the POPPY project that do look after them. We have a strange system at the moment whereby an adult victim of human trafficking gets better treatment than a child. Unfortunately, I do not have time to go into this further, as I note that so many Members want to speak in the debate.
Finally, I am ashamed to stand here as a citizen of this great nation and admit that we have failed William Wilberforce. After 200 years, the slave trade is still very much alive. In 200 years’ time, I do not want another Member of this House to stand where I am today and admit that he is ashamed that they have failed in what we are trying to achieve today. The first anti-slavery day must mark the start of the decline of modern-day slavery in our country.
Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)
Back in 2007, when Labour was in government, it was my great privilege to be asked by the then Prime Minister, Tony Blair, to help the country to prepare for the commemoration of the abolition of the slave trade. That was an important moment for this country, which brought people together across the House and, indeed, across the country to remember another very important moment in our history. Certainly in the cities of London, Liverpool, Bristol and Hull it was a hugely significant event. We recalled, of course, William Wilberforce, but also people such as Thomas Clarkson and Equiano and Ignatio Sancho—black and white men and women who made a difference to bring this awful trade to an end.
I learnt much that year. I learnt about the many women in Britain who boycotted sugar in order to bring the trade to an end, and the many petitions and marches organised in cities such as Sheffield to say, “Enough is enough”. It was an important year. Obviously it was an important year for me personally, because I stand here as the ancestor of those who found themselves—[Interruption.] I am sorry, I mean that they were my ancestors. That is how far back in history I was taken as I spoke. I stand here as the descendant of those who were enslaved.
As we remind ourselves of what the House has done to bring about the end of that terrible period in our history, we should bear in mind that it is hugely important for us to redouble our efforts in relation to trafficking as it exists in this country and around the world at this time. Tragically, it was in my constituency that the sad death of Victoria Climbié took place in the early part of this century. In the winter of 1999 to 2000, in a terraced house in Tottenham, she was terribly abused by a supposed aunt who had brought her here from Ivory Coast. Members will recall her dying, effectively, in a bathtub in that house, having been whipped, chained and terribly physically abused in this country. They will also recall the inquiry, the Laming report, and much that came out of her sad, tragic death.
That case put a spotlight on the nature of child trafficking in this country. We must all have hoped it would bring trafficking to an end, but it has not. Very sadly, in my constituency today I recall other children who have been trafficked. I think of Tunde Jaji, a young man brought here from Nigeria at the age of five. His case has now become a successful play, which was performed at the Edinburgh festival just this year. It, too, involved terrible abuse by a supposed aunt and her husband, again in the streets of Tottenham, and had a terribly dysfunctional effect on that young man. On this occasion, the story ends with some joy. A teacher at Park View academy, a wonderful woman called Lynne Awbery, took him into her own home, and nourished and supported him. He graduated from Bournemouth university with a fantastic degree in animation, and now dedicates himself to that.
Such tragic human cases sit alongside our concerns in the House, and in that context it is important for us not just to celebrate an anti-slavery day, but to ensure that we in this country, given our own past, honour and redouble our efforts in relation to this terrible crime. It worries me that the Government have chosen not to ratify the EU directive; I am hugely concerned about the fact that they have exercised the right to opt out on this occasion. I say that because of our own history in this country, and the important position that we have in the world in relation to these matters. It is very hard to encourage other countries to sign the protocol if we do not feel able to do so ourselves. It is very hard to say we are keeping our own house in order if we choose not to ratify. I therefore hope that the Minister might reconsider that position before he comes to wind up the debate.
I am also concerned that the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre is to be abolished, especially given the global nature of this country and the past that I have outlined, including the recent past in my own constituency. Events such as those that took place in my constituency are also happening throughout the rest of the country; estimates of the number of such children who might be here run into the thousands. It is also the wrong time to get rid of that organisation because of all we know about the sex trafficking of women, and younger women in particular. I therefore ask the Minister to reflect on that decision and to think of the great history of this country. Britain is a country that can make a huge difference in the fight against the human trafficking that is taking place across the country and the world. It is estimated that some 27 million people across the world are still in some form of bondage, whether in respect of a trade or domestic slavery.
This is an important issue therefore, and I ask the Minister to reflect carefully not only on our position in Europe but on the message we send in debating these matters and in choosing how to make a difference through treaties, directives and protocols.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. Members will have noticed that an eight-minute time limit has now been introduced.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
First, I congratulate the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) on the significant and important role she has played in pushing this issue, and also on securing the debate. I echo the comments of various previous speakers about the role Anthony Steen has played in pushing this agenda and bringing it to the notice of Parliament; I agree with the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) that it is a great pity that he was not present today to participate in, and perhaps open, the debate.
Anti-slavery day provides us with an opportunity to reflect on our ancestors’ role in this trade and on the fact that it is still an issue today. We are reminded of that almost daily. Literally a couple of minutes before the debate started, I had a chance conversation with my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) who has just been meeting to discuss the issue of St Helena. Apparently two of what he believes are the largest concentrations of graves of slaves anywhere in the world have just been found on St Helena. The island was used as a transit point and the slaves who had, presumably, died on the boats were off-loaded and buried on it. There are events even now that remind us of that past, therefore.
I also attended an event a couple of weeks ago to do with black history month. One of the speakers pointed out that although she was Jamaican her surname was clearly Scottish, and that that was because her ancestors had been slaves in an area where the landowner and keeper of the slaves—if I can put it that way—was Scottish and had passed on his surname to all the slaves working on his land.
Even more recently—just a couple of days ago—a Romanian gang was broken up. It is alleged—we will have to wait for the court case verdict—that it was responsible for using children for begging in the UK. Slavery is therefore not only a topic that we need to reflect on historically, but one that is present today.
Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)
I thank the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) for drawing attention to the work of Thomas Clarkson, of Wisbech in my constituency, who did so much to gather the evidence on which the case was put by William Wilberforce in this place. Does the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) agree that one of the problems—one of the pockets—is to be found within the diplomatic community? Although this is a complex area in terms of the legal framework, diplomatic immunity should not be grounds for allowing conditions akin to slavery to exist.
Tom Brake
That is a very pertinent and topical point, although it might be slightly beyond my pay grade to respond to it on behalf of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Perhaps the Minister may use his response as an opportunity to put across the Government’s perspective on that point.
Many forms of slavery are alive and well today, including bonded labour. People can enter bonded labour for something as simple as the cost of medicine for a sick child, and it then locks them into providing labour free or in exchange for food and shelter. That can be labour that they have to provide 365 days a year and it can be impossible for them to get out of that arrangement. As many hon. Members will know, Dalits fall into that category. Those are peoples in both India and other parts of the subcontinent who can end up in lifelong servitude, which often gets passed down through generations.
Tony Baldry
How does my hon. Friend suggest that we deal with that? Hundreds of thousands of people are involved in bonded labour in India, but India is a mature democracy, although one to which we still provide some development assistance. How and where does he suggest that we exert influence to help bring about the end of bonded labour in mature democracies such as India?
Tom Brake
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. The only tool at our disposal is the one that we are using at this moment: raising the issue and using that as a gentle encouragement to the Indian Government, and other Governments in the subcontinent, to respond to these challenges.
The time available does not allow an in-depth discussion about trafficking, although we had a fairly full debate on it just a couple of days ago. Inevitably, and correctly, that debate touched on the EU directive, and I simply wish to restate what I said then. I welcome the fact that the Government are reviewing the directive, but I hope that if it is clear at the end of that review process that the directive pushes us significantly beyond where we are on tackling human trafficking, the Government will then opt in to the directive.
In order to allow others their opportunity to speak in the debate, I shall finish by discussing just one other important point—the legal framework to tackle slavery in the UK. It is only this year that we have legislated to deal with an offence of forced labour or domestic servitude. At least we now have clarity, because the legislation is in place. Is the Minister in a position to tell the House whether there have been any prosecutions or convictions under that legislation, which has recently come into force? People will want to express emotional views in this debate, so I wish to conclude simply by saying that it is regrettable that we are having to have an anti-slavery day debate, because slavery is alive and well in the world. I hope that in future years—perhaps a number of years from now—such a debate will not be necessary.
Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab)
Like the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), I come to this debate very pleased that we are marking the end of one of the most horrific practices in legal history, but concerned that a significant problem still exists in the UK, with large numbers of women, boys and girls still sold into slavery in this country every year.
Over the past five years, at the Children’s Society, I have had the privilege of working with some of the remarkable children who have survived this horrific practice. Most were brought into the UK to be sold for sex, forced labour, domestic slavery or enforced begging. They were boys as well as girls and nearly all of them had experienced a combination of mental, physical and sexual violence.
This is a hidden crime, so it is incredibly difficult to persuade people that it still goes on. I can say to hon. Members that I am absolutely certain that this is happening in my Wigan constituency at this very minute, and in all constituencies across the country. I am pleased that so many Members have turned out to mark such an important debate.
The previous Government made significant attempts to tackle the problem and I want to pay tribute to the work that was done, particularly the ratification of the Palermo protocol and the Council of Europe convention. They were huge steps forward. The decision not to opt in to the EU directive was and remains the wrong decision, and I hope that the present Government will think again on that point. The Minister, for whom I have considerable respect, is known to be a humane man and is interested in this area. I hope that he will bring us some good news on that point.
It is simply not true that we already comply with the European directive on trafficking in human beings. Let me give hon. Members an example of a 17-year-old young man whom I have met and worked with. He was brought into the UK and forced to work illegally in a cannabis factory. After several years of that, he was picked up in a police raid at the age of 17. After several years of working in the most appalling conditions, with no natural daylight, subjected to cannabis fumes daily, he had significant mental health problems, as one would expect. Yet he was prosecuted for working illegally and for documentation offences. When I worked at the Children’s Society, I was told over and over again, along with colleagues from ECPAT UK— End Child Prostitution, Child Pornography and the Trafficking of Children for Sexual Purposes—and other tremendous organisations, that this problem simply does not exist, yet every day we were seeing for ourselves that it did. I am sure that it still does.
When I came across the young man in my example, he was serving time in a young offenders institution and had, thankfully, come to the attention of the British Refugee Council, which was able to find him a good lawyer who got him out. I am outraged that that vulnerable young man should have been subjected to such treatment at the hands of the state—at our hands. I cannot help but think that had that young man been British the response would have been quite different. It is unthinkable that a child or young person who comes to the state and alleges such appalling abuse should be treated in such a manner. Far too often these children are seen as perpetrators rather than victims, and as immigrants rather than children. We all—on both sides of the House—should seek to change that.
The EU directive sets out explicitly that it should be possible not to prosecute victims. That would be a major step forward in our treatment of these children. My experience of working with children who have been subjected to slavery is that it is often simply not recognised that they are vulnerable, particularly when they are older—when they are 17, for example. They do not look like the very vulnerable young people they are, so they are not treated as such.
I have been told over years and years that we can achieve the standards set out in the EU directive simply by changing our working practices. That might be true, but it has not happened. While it has not happened, children like the young man I have talked about are subjected to further harm by the state, because we simply have not got this right.
Let me give one more example before I let other Members speak. I have worked with very young children—aged eight or nine—who are adamant that the person exploiting them is their uncle, their daddy or some other relative who has their best interests at heart. When young children have been deceived in that way, we have a huge problem. Their lawyer is duty bound to act on the instructions that that child has given. The EU directive sets out very clearly that child victims must have a guardian to represent them in the courts, who would be able to instruct the lawyer on their behalf. Without that measure, which we have singularly failed to introduce—and in so failing, we have failed those children—we will not see prosecutions and we will never bring to justice the evil people who are doing so much damage to children in our constituencies.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. I am grateful to the hon. Lady for shortening her remarks. As we can all see, many hon. Members want to contribute to this debate, so the time limit is being shortened to six minutes.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
It is a good sign that you have had to shorten the time limit, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I am pleased that so many hon. Members are interested in the subject.
The scale of this worldwide problem has not sunk in. My hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) opened the debate by saying that 27 million people are in some form of slavery around the world, which is just less than half the population of the United Kingdom. That is a truly shocking statistic.
Some passion has been expended in this House this week, whether on the date of a referendum, the reform of housing benefit, the European Union budget, or contaminated blood. This subject, above all, is one on which we should expend considerable passion. We should state how outrageous it is that 200 years after Wilberforce got rid of the visible slave trade, that cruel and inhumane form of treatment of our fellow human beings has crept back.
We are discussing a truly global phenomenon, which is happening not only in this country and in Europe but around the world. Last night I trawled the internet and picked out relevant press cuttings from the past two days. There are press reports about trafficking across east Africa, and countries such as Tanzania, Kenya and Rwanda are forming a regional network to do something about it.
A national action plan has been established in Greece, where the situation is relevant to this country. Children and young people, often young girls, from Romania, Albania, Ukraine, Moldova, Bulgaria and Russia are often tempted to travel to Athens. Their families may be in economic difficulties, and they are lured to Athens by the prospect of a better life having been told that they will be working as, for example, a hairdresser. They are taken to Athens before being sent to Amsterdam, London, Hamburg or another great European city, where they end up working in brothels as captives. It is good to see Greece taking the matter seriously.
In Malaysia nine people have been arrested in the past two days, seven of whom are immigration officials. I ask the Minister whether we are checking our staff to ensure that they are not complicit with gangs.
Those examples illustrate that we are discussing a worldwide problem, but at the same time it is a local problem that happens in our constituents’ streets. We know that brothels operate in private houses; we know that people are being used for domestic servitude in private houses; and we know that people are being forced to work as bonded labour in businesses that are close to us and to our constituents. We can all do our bit, because we can all be eyes and ears. We all need to look out and help the police and the authorities. Even buying Fairtrade chocolate provides us with an assurance that the chocolate that we are eating has not been produced by children who have been forced to work on cocoa plantations in Africa.
Prevention is obviously better than cure. How much public education and awareness raising is being done in the source countries from which people are being trafficked? How engaged are the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for International Development in trying to spread public education and awareness, so that those young girls realise that there is great danger in being lured to be a hairdresser in Europe, and that it will probably not end up that way.
As Members of Parliament we all have a close relationship with our local newspapers, yet virtually all those newspapers—this is certainly true of the five newspapers in my constituency—carry advertisements for “adult services”, as they are euphemistically called.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman mentions advertisements in newspapers. Will he praise Newsquest, the newspaper publishing organisation, which has just banned such advertisements?
Andrew Selous
The hon. Lady is obviously a mind reader, to add to her other talents, because that is exactly what I was about to say. The Newsquest group has set an example, and I ask all hon. Members to ask the editors of their local papers to follow that example. That is something practical that we can do. This is not just about asking the Minister to do things; we can do things in our constituencies and we can get our constituents involved in doing something.
Can we have a minimum sentence for traffickers? Diplomats have been mentioned briefly. Any diplomat who is found to be involved in human trafficking should not have the right to be an accredited diplomat at the Court of St James’s, but should be expelled forthwith. I think that that suggestion would find wide support in the House.
We desperately need better co-ordination between the police, the Crown Prosecution Service and the judiciary, because these cases often fall down. We need the Ministry of Justice to get the police and the CPS together to work out how we can have more success with getting convictions, of which there have been pitifully few in the UK. That is not for lack of trying, through legislation, by many of us in this Parliament. There is a real problem with things not working as well as they could.
We also need much better liaison between the police and local authorities. That is working well in some places, such as with West Sussex county council, Operation Paladin at Heathrow airport, and at St Pancras with the Eurostar. There are very good relations between the police and social services in that regard. In Westminster, too, there is a very good protocol between the police and the council on forced marriage and honour-based violence. They are looking into incorporating that further in relation to trafficking in connection with the MARAC—multi-agency risk assessment conference—procedures.
This is a big issue and a worthy cause for all hon. Members to pursue throughout their time in Parliament. We are called to this place to pursue big issues, and there can hardly be a bigger issue than this. Let me close with the words of Margaret Mead:
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.”
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
It is a real pleasure to follow the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous). He is right that this is a big issue. The fact that it unites my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy), the hon. Members for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) and for South West Bedfordshire and others is a real tribute to the work that Anthony Steen pioneered in his many years in the House of Commons.
I have been here for 23 years; others have been here for as long as I have while others still have been here for a shorter period. What a legacy for the House and the country was Anthony Steen’s private Member’s Bill, which had the support of hon. Members on both sides of the House and produced the marking of anti-slavery day. I wish that he were here. Perhaps he is—perhaps, in a moment, he is going to pop in to tell us that we have gone on for too long, and should hear the benefit of his expertise. I am glad that his expertise remains in this House, as the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) has said. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Wellingborough for picking up this torch; he will become just as distinguished in his time in ensuring that this remains at the forefront of concerns among parliamentarians.
Of course, this is an important issue. The Select Committee on Home Affairs conducted a very long inquiry into human trafficking, which lasted a year. The hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington was one of the members of that Committee, which travelled to Russia and Ukraine. We took evidence from all the projects that have been mentioned today and we found, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan has pointed out, that victims were reluctant to come forward. We found out stunning statistics about what is the second-biggest illegal activity in the world after drugs. It is a billion-pound illegal industry, but it is very difficult to get people to come forward. That is why it is crucial that we have at our disposal the ability to track down the people traffickers.
I endorse what my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham said about the EU directive. It is very important that the Minister should reflect on this issue in the coming weeks and months and that we sign up to the directive. We cannot be kept apart from the rest of Europe when we need the support of other European countries to achieve the good and laudable aims that the current Government have in this area and that the previous Government certainly had.
I want to raise with the Minister three practical issues that will help us to achieve that aim. First, the Home Affairs Committee raised with the previous Prime Minister our concern about funding for the Metropolitan police’s people trafficking unit, which was disbanded nine months ago. Despite that, we have had successes, such as during Operation Golf this week, when people were found to be trafficking in central London. The Met should keep such relationships going with police forces in other parts of the world—in that case, for example, in Romania. The funding and the provision of resources for that unit are extremely important, because we require expertise.
Secondly, the UK Human Trafficking Centre was moved, as the Minister knows, away from independence and into the Serious Organised Crime Agency, which will now be abolished and form part of the new national crime agency. I urged the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice yesterday, during a debate about policing, to pause before the Government decide how the centre will sit within the national crime agency. The point about such organisations is that they have expertise beyond policing and act as a centre to co-ordinate many people and professions. It is vital that we retain such activity. I hope that the Minister before us will take up that issue with his ministerial colleague.
My final point is about the one issue that the Committee raised in its most recent report, because it is still a concern. There is no Europe-wide mechanism that brings together the origin, transition and destination countries of those who are trafficked. There is no such organisation. That work is done through conferences and meetings, and sometimes the European Union decides that it wants to be involved, but there needs to be a stand-alone organisation—a structure—to share good practice. When someone from Moldova travels through Greece, as the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire said, and ends up in Amsterdam, Bedford, Leicester, Wigan or wherever, they need to be tracked. That is not happening, but we have to ensure that those who are responsible for trafficking are prosecuted, because our record on such prosecutions is pretty bad.
I am absolutely delighted by the presence in the House of so many right hon. and hon. Members. We must keep debating the issue, because that is the only way in which we will effect real change.
Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to speak in this crucial debate. It is a credit to the decision to introduce Back-Bench business, and my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) opened it with great distinction.
I share the concern that there are no robust estimates for the number of victims of trafficking in the UK. Having the figures for victims of trafficking is fundamental to raising awareness of the issue and ensuring that human trafficking is given due attention by local police forces. Moreover, without accurate data, support services cannot be properly planned. I therefore believe that the UK Human Trafficking Centre needs to do more in that area.
The introduction of the national referral mechanism in April 2009 has gone some way towards recognising victims of trafficking. However, I am concerned that only 361 individuals were accepted as victims of trafficking in the mechanism’s first year, given that the estimated figure for such individuals is about 10 times that number. The dominance of the immigration authorities in the assessment and administration of the national referral mechanism is also a concern, as it emphasises the victims’ immigration status and inappropriately associates them with illegal immigration, as the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) clearly highlighted.
Although the exact figures for victims are not available, there have been six arrests for trafficking offences in Wiltshire, which includes my constituency, North Swindon. Human trafficking does not have borders; it is a problem for the whole of the UK and it must be addressed as such, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) said. More needs to be done to support victims of human trafficking, and I shall focus on that point.
I have been incredibly impressed by the work of the homeless women’s charity, Eaves. The POPPY project in London, which it runs, is invaluable in providing safety and support through accommodation, counselling, legal advice and outreach programmes. It provides 50 beds for victims of sex trafficking and nine beds for victims of domestic slavery, with a current occupancy rate of 100%. I welcome the further expansion that is occurring in London, Sheffield and Cardiff.
However, I remain concerned about whether victims from my constituency will have access to support and security services of that level. All too often, the victims are charged, then effectively released straight back into the arms of the gangs rather than being treated as victims. It is therefore vital that the new national co-ordinator sets out consistent standards of care, builds capacity, and raises awareness with local agencies and funders. Having been rescued from their living nightmare, all too often only temporary help is provided to them—a crying shame for these often exceptionally determined individuals, who rightly want to get their lives back on track and are hindered by their lack of formal education, qualifications and opportunities.
To tackle this, Eaves, along with partners Imperial college and the Women and Work initiative, has launched a scheme aimed at helping victims back into the workplace. HERA—Her Equality, Rights, and Autonomy—offers women from the POPPY project entrepreneurial skills and mentoring from some of the UK’s most successful business women and men, and aims to give them the life skills and confidence they need to set up their own businesses or get into work. In many cases, the victims arrived in the UK highly educated, and through this scheme go on to further or higher education, more often than not with an interest in human rights law, and 25% even go on to set up their own business.
It was a great privilege to meet one of the founders of the scheme, Simon Stockley, who kindly set out three brief recent examples of where this support and training has made a real difference. First, a Russian lady has set up a successful Russian specialist bakery. Secondly, a west African lady has set up a fashion label, designing and making clothes. Finally, a Moldovan lady, with mentoring from a senior member of Saatchi and Saatchi, was not only able to secure work at a large H&M store but is now the manager. These real-life examples show just how important it is to provide these opportunities nationwide.
We are rightly stepping up our game to rescue victims; let us not then fail them. We have seen that by empowering the victims and restoring their confidence, we are providing an opportunity to start a new life. I urge the Minister to do all he can to ensure that victims have access to the support that they require and rightly deserve.
Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)
We should be focusing not so much on what is happening in the UK as the fact that there are still 27 million people in some form of slavery throughout the world. We should look seriously at the heritage left behind by Anthony Steen. He was not talking about the UK; he never talked about the UK. As a member of the European Scrutiny Committee, he travelled around Europe urging other Parliaments to set up similar organisations and to get their Governments focused on the problem, whether they were in the transit countries, the departure countries or the countries where the criminal gangs organised.
It is interesting to look back in history. Oddly enough, the story of Oliver Twist is based on factual historical records of the trafficking of Italian children who were scooped up in the villages and promised jobs, and then brought to the UK to be thieves and robbers in the Paddington area of London. There was never a Jewish Fagin organising that—there was an Italian gangmaster and an Italian gang.
This is not just something that happens locally, but, as we have heard, it is happening locally in people’s constituencies, and in mine—two brothels were broken up, and trafficked women were found in both. Positive Action in Housing, based in Glasgow, does wonderful work in Scotland. Many Members have spoken about their own local organisations that are helping people who are then released from such bondage—not just sexual bondage, but low pay or poverty pay. A Chinese gentleman came to see me after I spoke at the annual general meeting of Positive Action in Housing. He had been moved from one Chinese restaurant to another, throughout the whole of the UK, for nine and a half years, and told that if he ever went to see anyone he would be sent back to China. It is going on all the time. Sixteen children were recently rescued in London. In Scotland, in the three months up until August, the newspapers reported that 18 children were found in some sort of exploitation.
I urge us, as a Parliament, to look wider than we are at the moment. The hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) is not completely carrying on the heritage of Anthony Steen if he does not focus on broadening the outlook. We should stop trying to throw a ring around the UK, and we should expand our movement outside.
Mr Bone
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct, of course—the ring needs to be around everywhere. I will let him into a secret. Anthony Steen and his Human Trafficking Foundation are working with the all-party group on human trafficking every week, and we intend to set up all-party groups across the whole of Europe, as Anthony wants.
Michael Connarty
Sign me up to that.
I wish to ask the Minister—I have never yet heard a decent reply to this question, including when I wrote to the Prime Minister in September—why the Government are not clear that we need to sign up to the EU directive on human trafficking. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) said that we need a Europe-wide organisation, and that is on offer in the directive. It is not a protocol, and it would be binding on all countries. We have sections 57 to 59 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, but they are not capable of dealing with cross-border trafficking in the EU.
The EU directive would give us extra powers. It would give us not just the power but the duty to pursue any UK citizen, or anyone habitually resident in the UK, who was involved in trafficking anywhere in the world, with the support of the EU. It would be our jurisdiction, so we could do our duty by people who were trafficked and enslaved. It would also give us the option—it would be a power, not a compulsion—to decide to pursue anyone habitually resident in the UK who was involved in organising people trafficking, which can lead to slavery, outside the UK.
I give the following example quite seriously, not to diminish the terrible thing that happened to the McCann family. If Madeleine McCann were an adult young woman who had been trafficked out of Portugal by a gang of people who were not in the UK, we would not have had the power to take jurisdiction. It is true that we can go to Interpol. I went to Portugal during that terrible time, as the Chair of the European Scrutiny Committee, and we met the policeman sent from Lisbon to try to pick up the pieces of the local police’s terrible approach immediately after the loss of Madeleine McCann. We realised the police’s inadequacy, but although we had liaison officers we did not have the ability to send in the Met to do the job properly. We could have that power for an adult if we signed up to the EU directive. That is its greatest attraction to me—we would have a duty and responsibility to people in this country who may end up being trafficked.
At the moment, young women and men affected travel around and live in other parts of Europe. They do not necessarily always live in the UK. If they are trafficked out of other countries by someone who is not a UK resident, at the moment we have no jurisdiction. That is a very strong argument for the directive.
The hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) came nearest to expressing the aspiration that existed when the decision to mark anti-slavery day was voted through in the House. It is a worldwide business that we must fight against. We must recognise the clear link with organised criminal gangs in the advanced economies of the world, particularly in the EU states and those around them. We must do everything we can to be vigilant locally. All the organisations that have been mentioned deserve support, and we must try to build an anti-slavery, anti-trafficking alliance at Government and non-governmental organisation level. I hope that the Minister, and eventually the Prime Minister, will recognise that one major step will be taken if we sign up to the EU directive on human trafficking and join that battle properly.
Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
It is a real pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty). We sit together on the European Scrutiny Committee and also share a common interest in the subject of this debate.
This is an historic and significant debate, and it is pleasing to see that so many right hon. and hon. Members wish to contribute. I welcome the advent of anti-slavery day, even though I was not in the House when the Anti-Slavery Day Act 2010 went through, not least because it is an important tool in bringing these issues into the limelight and giving them the prominence that they deserve. The one thing that is absolutely clear from the debate is that slavery is alive and well in our society and throughout the world. It is therefore right that the House discusses it. I should like to echo other hon. Members in paying tribute to Mr Anthony Steen, who is a great loss to the House. It is a great shame that he cannot be here to make his own speech today.
The simple fact is that it remains unacceptable 200 years after Wilberforce fought so long, so admirably and so hard against slavery that we live in a society in which slavery endures. It is perhaps not the same as in his time, but it is no less deplorable. In the 18th century, slavery was part of a distasteful and distorted economy, and was witnessed in the full light of day. Now, as the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) said, it is to a large extent invisible, hidden and underground. It is a hidden abuse of people who more often than not simply cannot speak up for themselves.
Of course, slavery surfaces from time to time. Sex trafficking is the crime that most often captures the media headlines, but earlier this week, Romanian children who were forced into working on the streets of the capital like Fagin’s gang were rescued by Operation Golf. I pay tribute to the Metropolitan police for their work on that. I hope the Crown can in due course mount successful prosecutions of those responsible.
It is worth remembering, however, that that is not an easy task. The women and children involved are often a long way from home. They do not speak the language and are away from such family as they have, and the authorities can seem remote and unhelpful. Getting valuable witness statements from those individuals—most often, it is women and children—is very difficult, particular given what they have suffered. The prosecution rate for such offences is woefully low. Will the Minister say what the Government intend to do about that? We have the laws, as has been said, but we do not seem to enforce them to their fullest extent. That might be a problem of mechanics, but I should like to know what the Government will do.
I also want to mention briefly, if I may, an issue alluded to by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay), namely the plight of domestic staff working in conditions that amount to slavery right here in London for embassy staff protected by diplomatic privilege. Unlike those on ordinary domestic visas, those on diplomatic domestic visas are not permitted to change jobs. They are stuck in their employment and with their employer, and essentially have no legal status. They do not and cannot go to the police if they suffer abuse. It is about time the Government dealt with that. The House is entitled to ask why we cannot get rid of those visas and issue normal domestic visas to those workers, which would enable them to have the same access to help as anybody else who needs it. What is the Government’s position on that?
I end simply by reminding the House what Wilberforce himself said in the House of Commons in May 1789—of course, that was not in this building. He said that
“the nature and all the circumstances of this trade are now laid open to us; we can no longer plead ignorance, we cannot evade it; it is now an object placed before us, we can not pass it; we may spurn it, we may kick it out of our way, but we cannot turn aside so as to avoid seeing it; for it is brought now so directly before our eyes that this House must decide, and must justify to all the world, and to their own consciences, the rectitude of the grounds and principles of their decision.”—[Parliamentary History, 12 May 1789; Vol. XXVIII, c. 63.]
We are simply debating anti-slavery day today, but the decision for the future is whether we are prepared to continue to accept situations of slavery which pertain to our society some 200 years after Wilberforce and his colleagues successfully fought the battle to end slavery in this country.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips), who introduced the historical context of the debate. I listened carefully to other hon. Members speak about the current situation, which is vital, but I want to say more about the historical context.
I am from Merseyside. Members may be aware that Liverpool was at one time described as the slavery capital of the world. No one associated with the city has any pride in that, but it must be acknowledged. Ships out of Liverpool carried about 1.5 million enslaved Africans on some 5,000 slave ship voyages. In 2007, I was proud that National Museums Liverpool opened the international slavery museum on 23 August, the anniversary of the Haiti uprising, when enslaved workers fought for their liberty. The museum is only metres from the docks that once repaired the slave ships. At the time, Sir Peter Moores rightly remarked that we can come to terms with our past only by accepting it, and to accept it we need knowledge of what actually happened. There is a lesson in that about what is happening today, and I am pleased that the House is having this debate to bring to light important issues such as trafficking and bonded labour, which still exist in the world.
The resistance of enslaved Africans and the actions of abolitionists in Britain ended the transatlantic slave trade in 1807, but in the north-west of England the cotton trade maintained links with slavery around the world for many years afterwards. We need to recognise our history and acknowledge that while our predecessors as Members of Parliament abolished the trade, the conduct of members of the public was even more astounding—another lesson from history for us today. In 1788, 100 petitions were presented to this House on the subject of slavery, and 2,000 people from Sheffield—or 22% of the adult population—signed one of the petitions. In 1972, 519 petitions were presented and every county in England was represented and stood up for enslaved people around the world. One in 10 of the adult population was involved—an amazing aspect of our history that should be recognised. The overwhelming opinion was that slavery was an utter offence to human dignity.
When we discuss this issue, we need to reflect on what caused the uprising of emotion and outrage. It included the testimony of freed slaves, published in this country. Olaudah Equiano is probably the most famous example. He was born in Benin and later captured and sold several times by slave traders. Eventually, he came to this country, where he bought his way out of slavery for £40. He published his autobiography in 1789 and brought to the public’s attention the horror of the middle passage. I need not remind Members of the conditions of those voyages on which people could be thrown overboard with little regard for their safety. The eyes of the British people were opened to the reality of slavery and they would not stand for it. That shows us about the morality that we all share. We care about each other and cannot stand by when others face pain and indignity. That is what makes change happen—human compassion and knowledge about what goes on.
Today has been important because we have reaffirmed our commitment as parliamentarians not to stand by in the face of human indignity. The POPPY project and its important work have already been mentioned. It has helped 700 women so far and we need to support its work. I look forward to the Minister’s remarks on how we can ensure that the victims of trafficking in this country are treated with the utmost respect and care, and enabled to find a way out.
The historical context of the debate is important. We need to enliven public outrage and think globally. As some people said at the time, and as we know now, charity and compassion do not begin at home. No matter where human indignity exists, it is everyone’s responsibility to promote action to change it.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern), who made an important point about the anger and determination of people 200 years ago to do something about slavery, and about how we need a similar fury now about the outrages we are aware of here. Funnily enough, my constituency played a major part in the abolition of slavery in so far as one of my predecessors promoted legislation to abolish it in the 1830s, and an archway was erected to celebrate the end of slavery—it is one of the few such archways still remaining. The sad thing is that it celebrates the end of something that has not quite ended, and we need to bear that in mind in this very important debate. We need to excite that sense of fury and anger about slavery.
I want to make several points. The first is that we have to get a measure of the problem, and my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) did exactly that. The fact that 27 million people across the globe are in slavery is simply outrageous. We cannot tolerate it.
My second point is about the importance of border control. I hope that the Minister will highlight how that will be strengthened. It is critical that we tackle border control issues, and it is very important that we deliver meaningful results.
The Chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), put his finger on an important point. It is not just that they have come here that matters; where they came from and how they got here also matter. That international dimension needs a focus too, because we cannot just sit here on an island and say, “We’re doing okay. How about the rest of you?” We need to take an international attitude. At the end of the day, as recipients of the problem, even if we deal with specific cases more satisfactorily, a threat will still remain, because people will still be trafficking from other places. We therefore need to use our influence to tackle the source of the problem and those who traffic.
That brings me to the EU directive against trafficking mentioned by several people today. As I understand it, we will be reviewing our position once that directive is confirmed. Furthermore, of course, we are signatories to the Council of Europe convention on action against trafficking, which is robust in its attitude. However, I hope that the Minister will look carefully at the EU directive, because if we are serious about taking action, we need to consider its impact.
I want to talk about the rule of law. A lot of people have talked about the legislation and measures already in place. Yes, they probably are in place, and we may need to strengthen some of them, but in this case the rule of law is being flagrantly abused by many. It is, therefore, a question of enforcement as well. We have to get the question of enforcement right, because, at the end of the day, a country such as ours should be able to pack a punch in that respect.
Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that we should applaud an initiative by the Metropolitan police to press for legislation that would allow editors who continue to publish sex adverts that can then be linked to trafficking to be arrested and tried in court? Does he agree with the words of the deputy Mayor for London responsible for policing? He said:
“We don’t allow drug dealers to advertise in newspapers so why should we allow traffickers to advertise prostitution?”
Neil Carmichael
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for—Enfield?
Neil Carmichael
Oh, yes, and I know where the hon. Gentleman comes from too.
I shall finish with this point. None of us in this House can be confident of our own dignity while others are entrapped or enslaved and therefore do not have theirs.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. The wind-ups will begin at 5.38 pm.
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)
Before I was elected to this place, I was vice-chairman of my party for women. In that capacity I worked quite closely with the POPPY project, and also with the Eaves housing group, of which many Members have spoken highly. I echo those views, and would like to pay a special tribute to one of its founders, Denise Marshall. She has worked on the issue unstintingly over many years, going to places that I would not dare go myself, on behalf of the cause. Indeed, she has been awarded a CBE for her efforts. I would like to share a few of the learnings that I have picked up from Denise and her colleagues on this terrible problem, and to compliment everybody involved in getting anti-slavery day on to the statute book. It is so important that we have these hooks to remind the general public and all the law enforcement agencies of the terrible problem that still blights our country.
Many Members have spoken about the international dimension. I would like to mention another dimension. Tragically, trafficking is not confined to a cross-border business. I am afraid that I hear increasing numbers of examples of intra-country trafficking. I should remind Members that children, and in particular young girls, who are residents of care homes in their constituencies are particularly vulnerable to the ruthless and evil people who try to get them out of that home environment, so that they can be trafficked to another part of the UK- where they will be more difficult to identify-and put to work in the evil, forced sex trade.
Another matter that I would like to pick up on was raised by the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz). He talked about the need for expertise in the enforcement agencies and the concerns of some Members, on both sides of the House, about the dilution of some of our specialist policing forces. As he said, there is undoubtedly a need for concentrations of expertise. That is most important. However, no matter how much expertise we can afford to fund, there will never be enough. There will always be a need for good, solid training of the wider police and of enforcement agency staff and personnel. As hon. Members have said, we are talking about a problem that can arise in any of the constituencies that we represent. Nowhere is safe, so we need to ensure that all the police are trained, and not just the specialist forces.
Mr Deputy Speaker
Order. I am sorry that not every Member could get in, but that shows the interest in the subject matter of this debate.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
I know that Members will forgive me if I do not respond or refer to every contribution, but what is striking about this debate—a debate that I am rather proud to have provoked from the Back Benches, and which I am now responding to from the Front Bench—is the extent of concern and the shared views across those on all Benches. Ten months after he introduced his Bill—now the Anti-Slavery Day Act 2010—I think that Anthony Steen would be proud that we are about to celebrate anti-slavery day. That must be some kind of record for implementing a policy.
I want to focus on an issue that Members on both sides of the House have raised, which is the EU directive. The Minister has said that the Government’s position on the matter will be reviewed, and I am grateful for that. I hope that he will forgive me for being boring about this subject—for continuing to persist with it—because he will recall that his party did exactly the same in opposition. Indeed, I recall the Prime Minister—then the Leader of the Opposition—claiming credit in March 2007 for the Government’s signing of the convention, when he asked a question about it across this Dispatch Box and the then Prime Minister, Tony Blair, said, as I recall, “We’re doing it on Friday.” The argument that he made at that time still holds: this is an international problem, and we need the best possible international collaboration between the countries that create movements of people across borders and those that receive them. I hope that the review will be concluded speedily, and that we will opt into the directive. Members have made the need for that clear today. My hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) also explained in very human terms why we cannot possibly opt out of providing guardians for children.
My next concern is about policing. There is a risk that centres of expertise, such as the one that the hon. Member for Stourbridge (Margot James) has just mentioned, could become diluted by being merged with other institutions. I recall the words of the hon. Member for Ashford (Damian Green), when he was the Opposition spokesman, in the debate on Anthony Steen’s Bill. He said:
“The existence of one central point of information on trafficking has clearly been valuable to police forces, the Crown Prosecution Service and other agencies.”—[Official Report, 5 February 2010; Vol. 505, c. 555.]
He was talking about the UK Human Trafficking Centre, and told the House how such centres of excellence improved the quality of policing. I am worried that we now risk losing some of that specialist focus. We began to sense that risk when the UKHTC was merged with the Serious Organised Crime Agency, and further mergers into the proposed national crime agency and a move to elsewhere in the country will mean that it will continue to exist. The widely respected director of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre, Jim Gamble, told the Home Affairs Committee recently that he believed he would be “fighting for airtime” in a national crime agency.
We need to focus on how we can improve the policing of human trafficking. It is not enough to depend on a specialist border force, because many trafficked people are unaware that they are being trafficked when they cross the border. At that point, the trafficking experience has not kicked in. We need all-through expertise in order to police the issue properly. I am deeply concerned that we are about to see a cut in the number of police officers, and, without these centres of expertise, we might find ourselves policing the problem much less effectively.
I urge the Minister to make another commitment, which involves one of the requirements of the EU directive. We need to lead the training of police officers in the policing of this issue. We know that, in the best forces, where there is effective collaboration between the police and social services, we can make a real difference on this issue. If there were a proper cascading of policy and information, so that every police organisation could be at the level of the best, we could make better progress on this matter. I hope that the Minister will tell us that that is going to happen.
The hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) told the House that the national referral mechanism was overloaded. I heard from Kalayaan just two days ago how often it has to hesitate before referring someone to the national referral mechanism because to do so would be too burdensome, because its client would not be guaranteed advocacy, or because the bureaucracy involved would add to the stress being experienced by an already-stressed person. We need to ensure that the UK Border Agency’s domination of the processes is squeezed out, as the hon. Gentleman rightly suggested, and that we use the voices of the voluntary sector and of those people who have advocated on behalf of trafficked women and children. Of course, it is overwhelmingly women and children—people who are already vulnerable—who are the victims of this vile trade. We should therefore use this expertise to protect women and children.
I hope that the Minister will also be able to assure us about prosecution policy—that there will be more prosecutions for trafficking crime, that they will be effectively conducted and that specialist prosecutors who understand the experience of the vulnerable people who have been trafficked will be used. I would like the Minister to inform us whether the offence of paying for sex with someone who has been subject to exploitation is being effectively prosecuted, as I am anxious that it is not. Will he also tell us how many prosecutions are happening, as they provide an important mechanism to prevent trafficking by reducing the demand for it?
After all, Anthony Steen passed his Bill and we are marking anti-slavery day because we want slavery and trafficking to come to an end. We have talked about ways of prosecuting those engaged in this vile trade and we have talked about ways of protecting the victims, but what we really need to do is to prevent it. To achieve that, we need effective international collaboration and effective international policing, and we need to ensure that the people who have been trafficked are not trafficked again.
One of the most horrific things about the victims is how vulnerable they are to being re-trafficked. Many trafficked people, after they have been rescued, are re-trafficked. We know, for example, that trafficked children brought into this country to work in cannabis farms—we have heard something about that experience today—who are taken into local authority care usually, and I mean usually, disappear within weeks or months into the hands of their traffickers. If they are rescued again, they disappear again. It is unacceptable—and I believe every Member of this House believes it is unacceptable—for that to continue to occur.
I believe that the European directive provides a quite powerful mechanism that can be used to help in those circumstances by providing each child with a guardian. I want the Minister to sign up to the directive and I hope that he is going to tell us that he is taking steps to do so. If he does not sign up to it, however, the least he can do is to ensure that he really does what I am sure the Prime Minister believed we were really doing, which is doing everything in that directive.
I have been a Home Office Minister and, frankly, I know that Home Office officials have form in telling Ministers, “We are already doing that, Minister.” I believe that this Minister might have the guts to say to those officials, “Actually, show me how. Here is the provision in the directive; show me precisely how it works. If you cannot show me precisely how, let us implement a policy to do it.” I am scared that, with the cuts in policing and other expenditure cuts, even the protection that we are currently able to offer women and children will be watered down. I hope, however, that this Minister will not let that happen.
The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green)
I thank the Backbench Business Committee and, indeed, the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart). She instituted the debate from the Back Benches, as she said, but she was miraculously and rightly transformed to the Front Bench before this debate, so she can now reply on behalf of the Opposition. In listening to this debate, I have been struck not only by how passionate, but by how erudite many speeches have been. There is a huge amount of expertise in the House on this vital issue, as Members of all parties have said, and I will certainly take that away with me as we contemplate future policy.
We are here because, although the first anti-slavery day fell on 18 October, the Government have decided to align Britain’s anti-slavery day with the existing EU anti-slavery day, partly as a reminder of the need for international co-ordination in this regard—a point made by the Chairman of the Select Committee, the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) and many other Members in all parts of the House. I am sure that Anthony Steen would approve of our alignment with the EU in this context, although I am less sure that his successor as chairman of the all-party group would be quite as enthusiastic.
Anyone outside the House who is listening to the debate or will read the report in Hansard may be led to believe that Anthony Steen is no longer with us. I am happy to assure everyone that he was e-mailing me this morning, and I hope to see him somewhere on Monday so that we can jointly celebrate anti-slavery day.
The day will provide a focus for not just the work of Government, but—this is important—the contribution of the many voluntary sector groups that raise awareness and deal with the practical consequences of this terrible crime.
Jeremy Lefroy
I am most grateful to the Minister. Will he also acknowledge the voluntary groups in the countries from which many people are trafficked? This week we have had the honour of a visit by Joseph D’souza of the Dalit Freedom Network, who will be in my constituency tonight. The network does tremendous work in India.
Damian Green
My hon. Friend has made a very good point. There are voluntary groups all over the world.
At the beginning of the debate, my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) said that prevention was essentially better than cure. In the short time available to me, I want to inform the House of the future direction of trafficking policy.
We all agree that trafficking is an appalling crime which treats people as commodities and exploits them for criminal gain. Combating human trafficking is a priority for the Government; what we have been discussing today is how it can best be achieved. We are seeking to improve the United Kingdom’s response to the wider threat from organised crime, which includes trafficking. The Government’s consultation paper “Policing in the 21st century” sets out our intention to produce a new strategy on organised crime, as well as referring to the creation of a national crime agency to make the fight against organised crime more effective. We therefore have an opportunity to ensure that there is specific consideration of the challenges involved in fighting human trafficking.
The Government intend to produce a new strategy on combating human trafficking, which will take up many of the points raised in the debate. I am sorry that I do not have time to deal with each point individually. The new strategy will be aligned with and published alongside the strategy on organised crime. It will reiterate the Government’s intention to take a comprehensive approach to combating trafficking, both by combating the traffickers and by looking after the victims. It will mark a greater focus on combating the organised crime groups behind the trade. I agree with the Chairman of the Select Committee that an end-to-end approach is necessary.
The new strategy has four main components. It will enhance our ability to act early, before the harm has reached the UK; there will be smarter, multi-agency action at our border; there will be more co-ordination of our policing effort inside Britain; and victim care arrangements will be improved. Let me deal with those components in turn.
Human trafficking is obviously a cross-border crime, and our earliest opportunity to counter the threat is therefore in the source countries and the transit regions. By intervening early, we can prevent harm from being done to people and reduce the impact here in the UK. As many Members have pointed out, interventions abroad can appear far removed from a flat or a brothel somewhere in a British city or small town—or, indeed, in a factory or farm where people are exploited for labour services—but we know that early intervention produces results. For example, a three-year trafficking investigation by the Serious Organised Crime Agency and Lithuanian police, which concluded in 2008, led to the dismantling of six crime groups in the UK, prison sentences totalling 145 years for 17 people in the UK and Lithuania, and the recovery of 32 victims. That is the kind of action that is needed all over the world.
What we are proposing is to bring together our political and diplomatic activities along with our enforcement efforts. We want to ensure they share common objectives, focused on places where criminal operations are based. That will be done in partnership with the source countries. We will therefore look at the full range of interventions open to us. Through political and diplomatic dialogue, we will build political will to combat trafficking and translate that into initiatives on the ground in other countries. We will protect potential victims by intercepting the traffickers before their activities impact on the UK. That is the first step.
The second step is at our border, which is the next line of defence against traffickers. As many Members have said, combating trafficking at the border is difficult, not least because victims will often be unaware of the traffickers’ real intentions. Increased vigilance and more effective deterrence and interceptions are key. This will be one of the tasks of the national crime agency and its border police command. We want to embed that thought inside the new BPC in order to enhance our response at our borders. We will also look at how we can build on the success of the multi-agency child safeguarding and investigation teams at some of the UK’s ports, and we will continue to roll out the e-Borders programme. That captures passenger and crew movements into and out of the UK and can be used to identify and intercept those suspected of a number of offences including trafficking.
The third step is inside the UK. Our domestic law enforcement response to trafficking will remain a vital part of our overall enforcement efforts. Significant progress has been made in raising awareness of trafficking and the capability to combat it among police forces through enforcement operations and mandatory training on trafficking for all new police officers. That is a step forward. The UK Human Trafficking Centre is an important resource in helping police forces by offering tactical advice, co-ordination and intelligence. Through the new strategy we will ensure that there is more effective strategic co-ordination of our existing efforts and that that leads to more targeted enforcement action on the ground. What that means in practice is that there needs to be clarity about the roles and responsibilities of police forces in combating human trafficking on the streets of Britain and better co-ordination, for example through tools like the control strategy on organised crime, which provides a framework for action by law enforcement agencies.
The fourth step is victim care, which is very important. As I have said, we want to have a greater focus on enforcement, but our aim is to prevent harm being done to people. Trafficking is a covert crime and the victims are often unaware that they are being trafficked until it is too late. When that happens, we need to ensure that we have the right arrangements in place to meet the care needs of victims. That will remain central to our approach. The Government are committed to ensuring that the UK meets its obligations to victims as set out under the Council of Europe convention on trafficking, which was signed a few years ago. More than 700 potential victims were referred in the first year after the convention was implemented, which is a significant achievement. We are committed to improving our response. We also plan to introduce a more effective system of victim care that takes better account of the needs of individual victims and ensures that each identified victim receives an appropriate level of support. We will announce further details of these proposals shortly. I should add that many practical suggestions were made during the course of the debate, which I will take up and feed into the process.
Of course, the comprehensive spending review will be announced next week. As we have already made clear in relation to the NCA, we will make sure that more law enforcement activity is undertaken against more organised criminals and at reduced cost. To achieve that, we will prioritise resources by targeting the most serious criminals and being more joined-up, particularly in our activities overseas; we often have different agencies operating in foreign capitals and other large cities who do not work together as effectively as they should.
The European directive has been a dominant theme in many Members’ contributions. The draft directive does not contain any operational co-operation measures from which we think we would benefit. It will improve the way in which some other EU states combat trafficking, but it would make little difference to the way we combat it. As I have said however, the directive is not yet finalised so if we conclude later that it would help us fight human trafficking, we can opt in then.
In conclusion, we will re-focus our efforts and make sure that this country maintains its reputation as a world leader in trying to end the disgusting and unacceptable survival of slavery in the modern world.
East Coast Inshore Fishing Fleet
(14 years ago)
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Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)
I am grateful to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to debate the future of the east coast inshore fishing fleet. This matter is of great importance, both to the fishing fleet in Lowestoft, in my constituency, and to other ports along the east coast and elsewhere in Britain. Although there is much wrong with the way in which the industry is governed today, I shall say from the outset that I exempt from any criticism the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), who is responsible for the natural environment and fisheries.
As a shadow Minister and now as a Minister, my hon. Friend has spent a great deal of time travelling around the coast, meeting and listening to fishermen, hearing at first hand their worries and subsequently doing what he can to address their concerns. That includes obtaining additional sole quota in August when the east coast fleet had no fish to catch. Last month, he and I met Lowestoft fishermen and discussed with them the problems that they face, and he subsequently came back with considerable speed to arrange for a delegation of fishermen from Lowestoft to meet him in Whitehall in December to discuss their plight more fully.
Much of Lowestoft, as it stands today, was built on the back of the fishing industry. As well as a substantial deep sea fleet, a network of supporting industries grew up, including shipbuilding, net and rope manufacturing and processing factories. Ross Foods has long since gone, though Birds Eye remains as an important employer, despite no longer processing fish from its factory in the town. The railway used to run into the fish market, and fish sold in the morning was on London dinner tables in the evening. “Fresh fish from Lowestoft” was and still is an evocative cry, although sometimes today it rings hollow because the fishing industry is much diminished and is facing a fight for its very survival. Most of the deep sea trawlers have long gone, as have all but one of the shipyards and many of the supporting industries. However, an inshore fleet remains, which, with the right policy framework, can not only survive, but flourish.
I am conscious that time is short, Mr Deputy Speaker, so I shall set out the problems that the fleet faces, not only in Lowestoft but along the east coast, and conclude with a few thoughts on how a sustainable and financially viable long-term future can be secured.
Inshore fishermen face five problems. First, the common fisheries policy is over-centralised and fails to respond to local needs. It is too cumbersome, unwieldy and centralised, and the forthcoming review in 2012 provides an opportunity to address the problem.
Secondly, the regime palpably fails to achieve its prime objective of conserving fish stocks and causes untold damage to the marine environment. Young fish are caught before they mature and there are inadequate incentives for the long-term management of stocks. Thirdly, the British under-10 metre fleet gets a raw deal, despite making up 85% of the British fishing fleet.
Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the Minister has inherited a disastrous problem with the under-10 metre quota? The previous Labour Government introduced fixed quota allocations, pinned the under-10 metre quota to a grossly underestimated figure and then failed to address the situation when it came to light with the registration of buyers and sellers. Our Minister has inherited a problem arising from the inaction of the Labour party when it was in government.
Peter Aldous
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, and I agree that the Minister has inherited an unenviable problem. There is a common perception that all fishermen have overfished the sea and are now reaping their own whirlwind. However, it is important to distinguish between deep sea trawlers and the inshore fleet, which fishes sustainably with long lines.
The quota system, which is meant to conserve fish stocks, has spawned the obscene practice of discards. Fishermen go out to sea and once they have reached their quota they throw back perfectly healthy fish that they cannot land owing to the threat of criminal prosecution hanging over their heads. A Lowestoft fisherman has told me how only two weeks ago in five days he had to throw back dead 1,300 kg of skate; eight other similar sized boats have probably been forced to do the same. That makes 11,700 kg of dead skate thrown back into the sea in just five days—11.5 tonnes in one fishery. When one takes into account the fact that this is happening all around the British coast, one realises that the waste, destruction and pouring of money into the sea is mindboggling. In that fisherman’s own words, the system not only stops him making a living and making long-term business investment plans but is decimating a national resource. If he was allowed to land just 20% of his discards, he could cover his expenses instead of operating at a substantial loss.
The final problem that we face is that quota has become a tradeable commodity, with legal entitlement. It is often owned by faceless investors, known as slipper skippers, who have no connection with the fishing industry and who lease the quota to fishermen at a substantial profit. That should be contrasted with the sugar beet regime, where ownership of quota remains with British Sugar, which makes it available to individual farmers both large and small.
The problems have created a frankly ridiculous and unsustainable situation. As I mentioned earlier, most of the deep sea-trawlers have left Lowestoft. However they still operate and fish the same grounds, although, as the quota was sold to a Belgian, the boats are now based in Belgium. Now and then the boats come to rest in Lowestoft, where the catch is unloaded and driven by lorry to Belgium or Holland. Much of it is then bought by Lowestoft-based processors and driven or flown back.
That is the position in which the inshore fishing fleet finds itself today. If the regime remains unchanged, the fleet, both in Lowestoft and elsewhere around the UK coast, will cease to exist. It is important to remember that just as farmers are the guardians of the land, fishermen are the custodians of the sea. None of them wishes to be aboard the vessel that catches the last fish. They all have an interest in creating and managing sustainable fisheries.
There is a solution, there is a way forward and there is a better way of running the industry. I do not have the answers and nor do the bureaucrats or officials, but I know the people who do: the fishermen, the scientists and the others who work in the industry.
Let me set out five ways in which the situation can be improved. They are based on proposals made by the WWF and those running the east sea fisheries district. First, there must be a move from the current top-down micro-management. The EU’s role should be to set high-level objectives. The Commission should not get involved in the day-to-day management of fisheries around such a large and diverse continent.
That takes me to my second point: the day-to-day management should be carried out locally by fishermen, scientists such as CEFAS—the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science, which has its headquarters in Lowestoft—and representatives from the Marine Management Organisation and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. These are the people who know the fisheries best. Such an approach, with management decisions being taken by those who are involved in each specific fishery, is very much the big society in action. It involves politicians getting out of the way, departing the scene and leaving those who know best to run their own industry.
Thirdly, the quota system should be relaxed and replaced with a maximum hours-at-sea means of maintaining fish stocks and controlling fishing. That will eliminate discards with fishing hours being varied over a year to take account of the level of stocks and weather conditions. If necessary, fisheries can be closed when stocks run low.
Fourthly, it is important to use science in the future management of fisheries, both monitoring the amount of fish caught and recording fishing activity. For example, a vessel monitoring system—a VMS—could be fitted to all vessels that would provide detailed information on the state and seasonality of individual fisheries. That will help provide better information to assist in marine planning decisions, not only on fishing but on wind farms, dredging and marine conservation zones.
Finally, I am mindful of the fact that today the North sea is an increasingly crowded place. As well as fishing grounds, there are shipping lanes, dredging areas and wind farms. The latter have an important role to play in Lowestoft’s future, but more about that on another day.
It is important that the marine environment is managed sustainably and responsibly. The Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 provides a framework for that, although it is important that decision making takes place locally, that all interested parties are involved and that decisions are made promptly with the benefit of all the facts that science can provide.
At the current time, the outlook for the fishing industry in Lowestoft and along the east coast does not appear bright. In the past, however, Lowestoft has adapted to change and has bounced back. The challenge that politicians across Europe must address as a matter of the highest priority is to provide a proper policy framework in which the inshore fleet can rejuvenate itself and move forward, providing a fair living for all those working in it. The comments of Maritime Affairs and Fisheries Commissioner Maria Damanaki, which were reported in today’s Financial Times, provide encouragement that the seriousness of the situation is now appreciated.
The Sam Cole Food Group, fourth-generation Lowestoft fish merchants, has recently made a bold decision and invested £2.5 million in a new processing factory. We owe it to those fish merchants and all those working in the fishing industry in Lowestoft and elsewhere around the British coast to do all that we can to reverse 30 years of decline in an industry that is at the heart of this island nation. I personally will not sit back and rest until a fishing regime that has almost destroyed the Lowestoft fishing industry is itself discarded and thrown overboard.
Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)
My hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) has made an excellent speech and his five key points were precise. I have little to add, other than my constituency interest and that of the neighbouring constituency, Canterbury, which includes Whitstable.
In the past couple of months, the Minister and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs have bent over backwards to assist us in resolving the quota problem that we experienced this summer, and I thank them for their work. However, we are approaching the end of this year, when we will start the new allocation of quota for next year. I know that the Minister will assist us again, but that situation reveals the byzantine, unworkable system with which the fishermen, the Department and the authorities must work.
We all realise that the big prize is the reform of the common fisheries policy. On the inshore fleet, my local fishermen and I believe that some important measures need to be considered. If we can reopen the issue of controlling effort and examine technical measures rather than more prescriptive forms of management of our fisheries, my fishermen and many others along the east coast will be extremely grateful.
Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)
I rise to declare an interest, because I have spoken in this debate. I am the wife of a trawler owner. My husband’s trawler bears the registration “LT1”, which was originally from the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous). My husband owns one of the vessels that has been displaced from Lowestoft, so I have seen how the port has declined over a number of years.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
Let me start by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) on securing this welcome debate on the future of the under-10 metre fishing fleet. He represents his fishing fleet extremely well and is an assiduous lobbyer on its behalf, so it is lucky to have him. That is also the case for my hon. Friends the Members for South Thanet (Laura Sandys) and for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray), and for many other, often new, Members, who have taken on board the needs of and the problems facing their fishing communities with commendable spirit.
I have made no secret of the fact that the issues facing this part of the fleet are particularly challenging, as has been discussed tonight. I am personally committed to improving fisheries management for the inshore fleet, but that will require difficult decisions and have implications for all parts of the industry. It is therefore crucial that we all work together as part of the big society, as my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney said, to develop effective and practical solutions.
My hon. Friend mentioned Sam Cole, the fish merchant in his constituency, whom I have visited twice now thanks to his good offices. I have been struck by an important statistic that has stayed with me as I have gone around the coast in this job: of the fish that Sam Cole’s father or grandfather—whoever started that business—sold, 90% used to be landed in Lowestoft and 10% used to be bought in, but those percentages are now precisely the reverse, and that has changed in a very few years. I am delighted that he is investing in the town and in this important industry, and I wish him and his fellow traders in the port well. I hope that there will still be a fleet there to represent at least part of what he seeks to sell.
There are two strands to this subject: what we need to do now, which is to provide some relief to the immediate issues, and what we need to do in the long term, which is to move the whole fleet, around the coast, towards a more sustainable future. In the current economic climate and with the downbeat prognosis for quota allocations in the coming year, all sectors of the UK fleet are finding things difficult, and things are likely to get tougher in the short term. I shall not hide from that fact. I will go to the December Council negotiations with the aim of securing the best deal for the whole UK fleet, but it is unlikely that the quota allocations will be higher than last year’s. However, I believe that we can take further steps together towards maximising the potential wealth from this quota, as has been demonstrated by the recent success in securing additional quota for the under-10 metre fleet by collaborative working between the Marine Management Organisation and producer organisations. I shall continue to push for more of that. I am grateful to hon. Members who have mentioned this, and I pay tribute to the new MMO, which has worked extremely hard with hon. Members and fishermen to ensure that the fisheries could stay open this summer.
It is imperative that while trying to provide short-term relief, we continue to focus on the future. I have been delighted with the progress that has been made towards our long-term goal of a socially, environmentally and economically sustainable inshore fleet in the relatively short time that I have been in my post. The sustainable access to inshore fisheries, or SAIF, project was established by the last Government to help to achieve that goal, and I have built on the work that they set in train. I welcome the recommendations that were recently made by the advisory group, which has not shied away from addressing the big questions. I have been particularly impressed by the willingness shown by the inshore and offshore sectors in coming together to discuss a range of issues relating to the reform of inshore fisheries management in an informal working group. That valuable insight from industry, along with extensive research into the environmental, economic and social impacts of the inshore fleet, is feeding into the SAIF project, which aims to consult on proposals for reform in the new year.
Any changes to the way in which our fisheries are managed both inshore and offshore will be more effective if they are implemented across the UK, and we are working with our colleagues in the devolved Administrations to share ideas and disseminate best practice. The SAIF work is also crucial in developing our negotiating position on reform of the common fisheries policy, helping to crystallise our thinking in relation to more localised management, self-regulation, differentiated management regimes, rights-based management and safeguarding the potential benefits of the small-scale fleet. CFP reform will play a crucial role in setting the framework for sustainable fishing, but there is much that we can do within our existing system, and we are taking action now.
My hon. Friend the Member for Waverey mentioned discards, which are a waste of natural resources. They are as much an affront to fishermen as they are to consumers. In fact, they are probably more of an affront to fishermen, who, in a hungry world, have to carry out the hideous task of throwing perfectly edible fish back into the sea, dead, never to be eaten by any human being. That is a ridiculous product of a failed and bankrupted system, and a real example of why we have to change the common fisheries policy. I am committed to minimising discards. I say so with regret, because I want to eliminate them, but I recognise that although we must set our sights high, in the short term we must be realistic and seek to minimise discards. I shall therefore push strongly to bring about those changes to the CFP which in time will achieve that aim.
Within the UK we have already made great progress in demonstrating the potential to reduce discards through more selective gears and fishing methods. The current catch quota project aims to pilot an alternative management system based on catch rather than landings quotas, thereby removing the need for excessive regulation and bureaucracy. It puts the responsibility on fishermen to use their knowledge and skills to fish more selectively to optimise the value of their catch. I hope that as the project progresses, we will be able to build on that and involve more parts of the fleet. The new Fishing for the Market project is also looking at how we can maximise the wealth from all, and often discarded, parts of the catch.
The low-cost vessel monitoring project involves scientists and fishermen working together to improve data collection. That is important, too, because since shadowing this job and now doing it I have discovered that around many parts of our coast there is a gulf in understanding between fishermen and scientists. There is good practice, much of it in the south-west, but elsewhere, too, where scientists and fishermen now work closely, and I want to encourage that in any way I can.
The introduction of inshore fisheries and conservation authorities will strengthen the local management of fisheries, based on greater self-determination by those who make a living from the sea. We want to ensure that fishermen are well represented on those authorities. The strategy developed in the SAIF project will provide the basis for a more sustainable fleet, enabling solutions so those other issues are addressed. Reform of fisheries management must empower fishermen and their local communities to take control of their destinies. We need to move away from arbitrary divisions within the industry to a more unified system where more local needs can be reflected.
Some of the themes being discussed in the CFP reform can have a real impact, and they include rights-based management and regionalisation. I know that uncertainty breeds fear in an industry that has suffered greatly over the years, but as we develop our thoughts, in consultation at every stage with the inshore fleet and the fleet around the whole of the UK, I hope that a degree of trust—something that has been absent for too long—can be built, together with the real belief that we can turn a corner and make a real difference to the livelihoods of small coastal fleets, such as the Lowestoft fleet in my hon. Friend’s constituency, and those elsewhere.
Places such as Lowestoft have a strong fishing tradition and strong community support for the industry. They are already building the foundations needed to thrive under a reformed system. I again thank my hon. Friend for raising this important issue. I welcome his enthusiasm for supporting his local fishing industry. I note his five solutions; they have been listened to and they will be reflected on as we progress.
I am delighted to be able to end on a positive note with congratulations to my hon. Friend and to his neighbouring MP, my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), who have worked hard to help to achieve and secure a £1.2 million grant from England’s European fisheries fund to support a major development at the Southwold port. I understand that it is not specifically in his constituency, but in the same fisheries area. I want to encourage and applaud that kind of working together of colleagues in this House, pushing for projects that give a sustainable future for their industries. I hope that by working together we can secure a future that will see developments that benefit fishermen for generations to come.
Question put and agreed to.
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Banking in Scotland
(14 years ago)
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Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. Before the sitting, you set me the task of seeing whether I could mention Bermuda at some point in my speech. I am not sure how I shall manage that, but no doubt some opportunity will come up.
The debate is somewhat unusual in as much as it refers to a report produced in the previous Parliament that has been responded to by the Government in a new Parliament. Relatively few members of the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs have survived from the previous Parliament, but two, at least, are here. The new members wanted to make it clear that the report was not necessarily something they were involved with—just in case there was any blame to be distributed, and in case there was a Whip here who might in some way take offence at anything that might have been said. They are still at an age when they are in awe of the Government whipping process. I hope that they feel thoroughly cleared by that caveat.
I want to start by referring to the final recommendation from the Committee, which called on the successor Committee to continue to take the matter forward, and keep it under review and supervision. I am glad that we have today’s debate as the first step in doing that, and that the Committee has already agreed to seek further information from the banks. Once we have studied that, I hope that we shall go on to seek further information from several other organisations that we discussed previously, to see how matters have progressed since the report was produced.
This is a quite fast-moving situation. What we said in February drew on hearings that had taken place in December 2009 and in January. We reported in February and there was a Government report in July, and things are not necessarily the same now. Because of the importance of the banking industry to economic life in Scotland, we want to keep the matter under review. I understand that the Minister’s reputation does not put him among the worst of the Conservative Ministers—[Laughter.] I notice that he disputes that. I hope he will be prepared to work with us on an ongoing iterative relationship to keep the banks under review.
One of the generic problems, I suppose, of the Scottish Affairs Committee is that as a territorial Committee it is not our role to stray into general areas that are properly the remit of other Committees. Just as, in the work that we did on the forthcoming measures on the alternative vote and the changing of boundaries, we restricted ourselves to seeking advice and information from people on the aspects of the matter affecting Scotland alone, so, in the present case, we have sought not to duplicate the work of the Treasury Committee, but to restrict ourselves to considering those aspects that impinge on Scotland. We have looked, therefore, at the impact on Scotland in the context of the banking crisis.
I want to start by setting the report in the context of the banking crisis, a year or so ago. We would all, I think, accept that many of our economic difficulties now flow from the banking crisis. I remember Alex Salmond, as First Minister in Scotland, condemning the “spivs and speculators” who at that time were bringing down the Royal Bank of Scotland; unfortunately, he was not prepared to concede that the spivs and speculators involved were working for the bank at the time. I think that he was looking at the crisis that engulfed the Scottish banks as being of external origin, rather than having been to a great extent home-grown in those banks.
Those who brought down the Scottish banks were in them, working for them, gambling for them and mismanaging their money. We now have the responsibility of moving forward from that. The banks brought a crisis on themselves, but they brought it on the rest of us as well. The impact of the spending review next week will be very much influenced by that—indeed, more by that than by any other single factor.
It is undoubtedly a source of some shame to me as a Scot, and, I am sure, to many others of my Scottish colleagues, that a situation that developed at the Royal Bank of Scotland and the Bank of Scotland resulted in the need for a bail-out—a rescue—by the Bank of England. The Bank of England should perhaps more properly be referred to as the Bank of Britain in this context. It was of course founded by a Scot, and therefore we do not need to feel quite the same guilt that we might have felt had we been bailed out by an external body. Of course, the way in which the Bank of England, acting on behalf of the British Government, was able to ride to the defence and support of the Scottish banks in crisis, demonstrates yet again the strength of the Union and the importance of Scotland’s remaining in it.
We must draw a number of lessons from bank failures and the bad behaviour of banks. The main one that the Committee drew at the time in question was that banks and bankers cannot be trusted to do the right thing unless they are under constant supervision. Where the previous Government went wrong was in the fact that new Labour, who in my view were unduly keen to suck up to big money, accepted the consensus, prevalent at the time, that regulation was in principle a bad thing that should be minimised.
I make that criticism of the Government whom I supported, as a valuable lesson, I hope, to new members of the Committee, so that they will understand that it is possible to be a member of a Select Committee and on occasion to be critical of the Government. I hope that that lesson will be supported by the Minister. If Committees are to work properly, there must be occasions when even the mildest criticism of the party to which one belongs is allowed. I hope that I shall be allowed that latitude here today.
Light-touch regulation became the mantra. New Labour was pressed all around by the then Opposition—now the leading party in the Government—the Scottish National party, the CBI and the City; all of them called for less and lighter regulation, and new Labour went along with that. The bankers ran wild, the system collapsed and we are now in a situation where ordinary people are left to bear the burden. The main lesson that we should draw—I hope the Minister agrees—is that we need to move away from an emphasis on minimising the examination of banks’ conduct and on a lack of intervention when they behave in a way that is not conducive to the development of the economy and the relationships we would want within it.
External influence, and the way it needs to be controlled, is beyond the purview of the Scottish Affairs Committee. Therefore we imposed a self-denying ordinance that we would not make recommendations on those matters. I intend to stick with that approach today, although some of my colleagues who have more flexibility in the debate may want to comment.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the coalition Government have made some excellent steps in firming up regulation, particularly with the proposals to put the Bank of England absolutely at the centre of the new regulatory regime? I am pleased that he seems to think that a good idea.
Mr Davidson
Yes, I agree with the general thrust of those remarks by my colleague, who is a new member of the Scottish Affairs Committee. I am sure that the Whips Office will have noted that he is keen to draw attention to something that has been done by the Government and with which I generally agree.
The new Government have followed on from the changed policy of the previous Government, who moved away from being quite slack in terms of focusing on the work of the banks, to being much more rigorous and controlling. The new Government are continuing that process. I welcome that; there is no point trying to identify disagreements that do not exist. There are enough disagreements that do exist without suggesting that we disagree on everything. There is substantial agreement in this area and I hope that we can build on it.
During our investigations, we held 10 hearings over seven days and received 16 written reports, all of which were helpful. We also visited the Republic of Ireland. For the younger hon. Members, I should say that was in the days when there was a fashionable concept, of which little is heard now, called the arc of prosperity, which was very much discussed in Scotland.
The general idea of the arc of prosperity was that if Scotland became independent it would become like Ireland and Iceland. For some reason that I do not entirely understand, that is no longer raised by Scottish National party Members of Parliament as much as it used to be. [Interruption.] We have just been joined by a SNP Member. Let me tell the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) that the arc of prosperity is no longer raised as much as it once was, largely because it is no longer there.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Would the hon. Gentleman care to inform hon. Members about unemployment in Norway, Iceland and Ireland relative to the United Kingdom and about the gross domestic product per capita in those countries? If he cannot provide an answer, I will.
Mr MacNeil
Unemployment in Norway and Iceland is lower than in the UK and unemployment in Ireland is higher, so on unemployment the arc of prosperity beats the UK 2-1. GDP per capita in Norway, Ireland and Iceland is higher than in the UK, so on GDP the arc of prosperity beats the UK 3-0.
Mr Davidson
That is presumably why the SNP no longer mentioned it at all. Ever since Iceland’s economy became so bad that part of the island exploded, we have heard little about the arc of prosperity from the SNP.
We went across to Ireland because, like Scotland, it was—[Interruption.]
Andrew Rosindell (in the Chair)
Order. The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) will have a chance to contribute to the debate later. Perhaps Mr Davidson would like to continue.
Mr Davidson
If people just mention the arc of prosperity the nationalists tend to become somewhat overexcited. I understand that and accept that it was my responsibility. I will try not to say anything else that might prove unduly provocative.
Visiting Ireland was interesting because—
Jim McGovern
I will try not to be.
Charges of €50 to visit a general practitioner, €85 per month prescription charges, 25% VAT, 50% income tax and £8 for a pint of beer, which is hard for some people to swallow, are all characteristics of small European countries regularly used as examples by the separatists who want to take Scotland out of the UK.
Mr Davidson
Indeed, all that is true. However, I am in danger of becoming diverted. Far be it from me to allow that to happen. I look forward to hearing exchanges on such matters later.
Our visit to Ireland was helpful and constructive. I want to put on the record that we were pleased that all those whom we met were prepared to be perfectly open with us and that they put everything that we asked for in front of us. That made the trip more interesting, enjoyable and educational than it might otherwise have been.
It is clear that in Ireland there was a sort of crony capitalism, where everybody not only knew each other, but lent each other money. The housing prices in particular rocketed upwards to such an extent that when the crash came the central bank was not able to bail out those who found themselves in difficulty in quite the same way that we in the UK were able to. Scotland had the great advantage of being part of the Union and therefore the Bank of England was able to bail out the Bank of Scotland and the Royal Bank of Scotland.
Mr MacNeil
Did the hon. Gentleman meet many people in Ireland who wanted to return to being part of the UK or did they feel that being a low-growth area of the UK would mean not being as successful as being an independent country?
Mr Davidson
It is unrealistic to expect that many in Ireland would want to return to being part of the UK, because people there felt that they wanted independence for Ireland even if it impoverished them. Many people we met recognised that, in many ways, they were becoming more of a colony of the UK now than they had been, because high streets in Ireland were run by Tesco and WH Smith, for example.
A relatively small number of Irish businesses seemed to have a presence and they no longer had influence on the UK. People there were unhappy that they no longer had control over their own currency, because, like the SNP, they wanted to—and did—join the euro, which meant that they were unable to devalue competitively in a way that might have produced a boost for their economy. There was much weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, as perhaps the Irish are prone to do, about that issue.
There is no doubt that the difficulties faced by the Irish Government and people were exacerbated by Ireland’s being a stand-alone economy without control over its own currency. The Irish Government have been making huge cuts in public services—cuts in wages, pensions and services—all of which were going through when we visited. Some of those might come about now, but seeing all that was helpful and constructive.
Julian Smith
The hon. Gentleman seems to be talking about the past. One conclusion of this report is that there is confidence in respect of financial services in Scotland, despite what happened. I believe that this debate and discussions on this topic should focus on how we can use the financial services sector, which has had huge success in Scotland, to create more jobs and private sector investment in this sector from overseas and from Scotland. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will come on to that later.
Mr Davidson
I am sure that I will. However, the debate is not about the future economic development of Scotland; it is about the Committee’s report, which we produced some time ago. My role as Chair is to discuss what we covered at that time and ensure that it is all seen in context.
Mr MacNeil
Given that the hon. Gentleman apparently did not meet anybody who wanted to rejoin the UK, does he feel that Ireland should rejoin the UK?
Mr Davidson
It is a matter for the Irish people, not for us. In the same way, it is for Scottish and Welsh people to decide whether they wish to remain in the UK—and it would be for the people of the Falklands to decide whether they wanted to join the UK and for the people of Gibraltar to decide whether they wanted to join Spain. All these things are matters for the people involved.
Mr Davidson
It is up to them. That is my opinion. Argyll, I believe, should remain part of Scotland.
Mr Davidson
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving me the opportunity to mention that. Whether Bermuda should join the UK or cease to be an overseas territory is a matter for the people of Bermuda.
Andrew Rosindell (in the Chair)
Order. I think a debate on the overseas territories would be very useful, but this is not such a debate. Perhaps we can get back to the subject.
Mr Davidson
Indeed, Mr Rosindell, I was led astray by bad boys.
I was asked about conclusion 3. The Committee stated in its report:
“We welcome the optimism of those working in the financial services sector who believe that the reputation of that sector in Scotland has not been permanently damaged by the difficulties experienced by two of Scotland’s, and the UK’s, largest banks. We are reassured that the quality of the location, the lower costs and the depth and diversity of its labour pool remain attractive to global corporations.”
That is particularly welcome in view of one of the Committee’s anxieties. We asked everyone we saw whether they believed at that time—the hearings took place in December 2009 and January 2010—that the financial crisis that had arisen from the activities of those working for the Bank of Scotland and the Royal Bank of Scotland would have a long-term impact on the finance industry in Scotland. It was reassuring and supportive of what we were seeking to do to have a clear view from virtually everyone we spoke to that there was no doubt about that. A few people had some doubts, but we subsequently spoke to some of them informally and were reassured that they believed that the waters had calmed and that the Scottish finance industry, although shaken, had not been brought tumbling to the ground. I am glad to see the Government’s response to that conclusion, which is:
“The Government will continue to work with the Scottish Government to ensure that the financial services and banking sectors remain strong in the future.”
I hope that they are also prepared to continue working with the Scottish Affairs Committee, as well, to ensure that, as we monitor, we try to pull things together as far as possible.
Jim McGovern
Unfortunately, I must leave shortly, but I wonder whether my hon. Friend and other hon. Members have had the same experience as I have had. I was elected in 2005, and hold a surgery every week. Generally, the people coming to my surgeries had problems with tax, pensions, immigration, visas and so on, but in the past year or so, more and more members of the local business community have come to my surgeries complaining about how they are treated by the banks. Is that a common experience?
Mr Davidson
I have certainly had more people coming to my surgeries to talk about how they are being treated by the banks. I am also aware from money advice centres, Citizens Advice and other advice centres in my area that since the banking crisis the number of people complaining about how the banks have dealt with them has risen considerably. One is never entirely sure whether that is because the issues have been given more publicity—what we hear in our surgeries is not necessarily an objective assessment—but it is noticeable that the numbers have risen substantially, and I understand that that is a common experience.
Julian Smith
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is worth making a distinction between the bash-a-banker rhetoric, which probably many of us hear in relation to the problems that our constituents are having, and the success that Scotland has had in attracting back-office roles? Those roles have nothing to do with investment banking or lending, but are based on traditional Scottish accounting talents. Thousands of jobs have been attracted from a wide range of international companies to Scotland—to Edinburgh, Dundee and Stirling—and we must pay tribute for that. We must continue to try to attract such jobs to ensure that financial services play a role in making the private sector stronger in Scotland and lessening public sector predominance.
Mr Davidson
I am sure that those points have been noted by all concerned, including the Minister and the relevant Whip. I want to deal with the report, however, and while such matters are fascinating, the report does not deal with them. I look forward to hearing the hon. Gentleman’s contribution to the debate, which will no doubt cover anything that anyone misses out.
Let me make it clear that the Committee believes that it is of key importance to continue the supervision of banks in Scotland, because the banks’ behaviour and their success will be essential to the growth and development of the Scottish economy. We cannot build up a small or large business sector without having banks in Scotland that are able and willing to lend, understand their markets, and behave constructively and positively. I hope that that covers the point that the hon. Gentleman was making.
We wanted to identify the extent to which lending in Scotland had declined during the economic crisis. Our report contains a series of figures and statements indicating that there was a period when lending was far too loose—the banks had been intent on shovelling money out of the door, almost irrespective of whether the business propositions were viable. We were critical of the way in which bankers often seemed to be incentivised to make loans without due regard to their viability, whether they were for property or to businesses or individuals. The report states that the pendulum then swung too far in the other direction. For a period, banks were unduly restrictive. They were prepared to lend on almost nothing and found excuses to raise charges and interest rates to make it as difficult as possible for money to go out. We have now seen a swing back and there is a degree of equilibrium, but subsequent discussions that the Committee has had have not convinced me that the banks have got it right yet.
Recently, the Committee met representatives from the computer gaming industry in Dundee, the construction and road haulage industries in Edinburgh, and the local chamber of commerce in Dundee. In every case, the story we heard was the same—the banks do not understand us. No one in the construction, road haulage or computer games industries spoke up for the banks collectively. That was interesting, and not a little worrying. Everyone who expressed a view on such matters said that they did not believe that the banks had taken adequate account of the prevailing situation, and did not have a feel for their industry at the moment. They needed loans, floating capital and so on, but the banks were not willing to play along, except at exorbitant rates.
The banks have said that they are making more money available and that part of the difficulty is that lending is going down because companies are choosing to repay debt instead of taking out new debt; but it seems to me that, to some extent, the rates that the banks charge and the conditions that they seek to apply are still inhibiting meaningful lending. The Government and the Committee should give ongoing consideration to that. We have had some responses and updates from the banks involved that seem to paint a picture that is rosier than recently, but we are still receiving feedback from those who want to borrow that the banks are not being as helpful and constructive as they might be. I hope that the Minister and the Committee will be able to work together with the Scottish Parliament to ensure that we develop a mutually advantageous liaison and relationship.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Will my hon. Friend comment on the experience that I have witnessed and have been told about since the report was published? A major lending bank in Edinburgh told me that it has more money than it has ever had to lend, but that people are not coming forward to borrow it. I suspect that that might be due to the expectation of those who would like to borrow that they are being priced out of the market, or would not be granted loans.
Another major mismatch in the banking sector is between front-line staff, who have a relationship with industries, and the underwriters in the background. There is anecdotal evidence to suggest that when people seek to borrow money, the front-line staff with whom they have a relationship believe that the criteria have been met, but the underwriters subsequently use different criteria. Has the Committee come across those issues since the report was published?
Mr Davidson
The first is certainly true. We have been told that money is available but is not being taken up, and money is being paid back faster than it is going out. We have not adequately explored the point at which decisions are made, not made, or knocked between front office and back office, and my hon. Friend gives us a valuable pointer. Having met representatives from three industries that are significant and important to the welfare of the Scottish economy, and having heard the same story from them all, it seems that something is still not right in the relationship between banking and its customers in Scotland.
When we met the CBI representatives, we did not quiz them as directly as we might have done because it was an informal meeting, but the same sort of message was coming back. I know from meeting various development groups in my local area, including construction companies, that people are concerned about the lack of co-operation that they receive from the banks. That is one area of the report where further work is required, and I hope that the Minister will be suitably co-operative on that.
I will now look at how banks deal with individual customers. We all deal with the public and we are aware from our activities and surgeries that there is a fair number of rascals, chancers, villains and incompetents in most constituencies, except my own. The banks are not necessarily dealing with paragons of virtue on every occasion and there are people who borrow irresponsibly. However, the volume of complaints present at the time of our report seemed far greater than could reasonably be expected. The stories that we have heard since from Citizens Advice, and the experiences in my surgery and those mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee West (Jim McGovern), suggest that the banks continue to be less than completely understanding and helpful when dealing with customers in financial difficulty.
A number of examples of bad practice are quoted in the report, and it is perhaps appropriate to mention them so that they are on the record. In its evidence to us, Citizens Advice highlighted:
“Unfair overdraft charges; banks being more aggressive in their behaviour towards debtors; banks encouraging debtors to take out more products as part of their repayment; banks demanding higher repayments from clients in order to repay debt quicker;.”
Banks are also using the “right of set off” to transfer cash around people’s accounts. None of those are examples of particularly good practice. Many of us were worried by the way that banks were utilising call centres to a far greater extent than we believed was justifiable. In many cases, call centres were ringing up customers several times a day, and they often seemed to be in complete ignorance of arrangements that had been made with another section of the bank. Those call centres were often based abroad and perhaps there were difficulties in communication. The people who rang up and talked to the customer seemed to have no flexibility or power to negotiate or discuss matters, but simply reiterated that they wanted money back. Hon. Members will understand how stressful that was to people who, in many cases, were already highly stressed because of their financial position.
To some extent, the assurances that we had from the banks reminded me of Bart Simpson, who, when he was accused of anything, would say, “It wasn’t me, nobody saw me and you can’t prove it.” The banks tended to say, “We never did that, it wasn’t as bad as you say and we don’t do it now.” Clearly, the banks are now at some pains to distance themselves from some practices that have been going on, but I do not think that they have abandoned them entirely. We have been told that banks now show greater forbearance before taking people through the repossession process, and feedback I have received suggests that that is true. The Government are probably in a better position to clarify the figures. That is certainly a matter that we want to pursue.
We continue to receive feedback from Citizens Advice and other organisations suggesting that cases continue where one arm of a bank strikes a deal with a customer who is in financial difficulties, but another section continues to pursue the customer, irrespective of the deal done; and irrespective of the bank having been notified that somebody wants to use Citizens Advice or another intermediary as a representative, it continues to pursue the customer directly in order to harass them into making additional payments. There must be a degree of responsibility on the part of the banks. We understand that the banks need to try to recover their money, and, particularly when many of them are state-owned and state-financed to a great extent, we do not want to put them in a position where people can escape their obligations, but a balance must be struck. Paragraph 113 of the report states:
“We conclude that banks continue to use aggressive tactics towards customers who have fallen into debt.”,
We should all be concerned about that. We have been told by a number of bank staff that some of the processes and procedures that I have described continue. That is concerning.
Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)
Let me state for the record that the Royal Bank of Scotland used to be a client of mine.
I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that if customers and constituents are having problems with lending or other general banking issues, they should be encouraged to bring their problems to us as Members of Parliament, so that we can raise concerns directly with the banks. We could give the banks specific examples of where their processes and procedures are going wrong, so that they can deal with them directly.
Mr Davidson
The hon. Lady is in a good position if she can say that the Royal Bank of Scotland was a client of hers. I used to be a client of the Royal Bank of Scotland. Not many of us have it the other way round. She is right—people should feel able to come to their MPs and ask them to raise issues on their behalf, but I fear that in some locations, the Members involved would run the risk of being swamped.
In my early days as an MP I was involved in establishing a money advice centre and a citizens advice bureau, simply because my office could not cope with the volume of complaints it received. We do not necessarily need to meet those involved in such cases directly in order to get information about them. I regularly get information from advice and information centres, which aggregate. There is always a problem for individual MPs when dealing with casework in this and a number of other areas, because one is never certain of the extent to which the problem presented is typical and shared by a lot of people, or whether it is due to a persistent constituent who wants to pursue the matter as far as their MP. Although I accept that it would be immensely helpful if MPs had more information, seeing people individually is not the sole way of getting it. However, I congratulate the hon. Lady on having had the Royal Bank of Scotland as a client. I hope that she treated it better than some of its clients have been treated by that bank.
I have spoken enough about Citizens Advice; in the accompanying papers, people can read an update from that organisation which indicates that not everything is flowing as well as it might. I conclude on this aspect by pointing out that there are always two elements to a relationship between a group such as Citizens Advice and an organisation such as a bank. First, it is important that the banks are willing to listen, and I think that they are getting better at that. However, they are not necessarily better at the second element, which is acting on what they have heard. Citizens Advice tells us that it has greater access to the banks, and the banks tell us that they have more meetings, but it is not entirely clear that the banks act on the information they receive in the way that we would want.
I want to make two other points. The first relates to the work force. It is important to stress that the vast majority of people working for the banks are not on megabucks—they are not enormously well paid or taking huge risks with other people’s money. The Committee had figures indicating that bank employees’ average pay was about £28,000 at Lloyds bank and £30,500 at the Royal Bank of Scotland, with the UK average being about £25,000. It would therefore be unfair and unreasonable to say that everyone working for a bank should be the subject of the same opprobrium and be held responsible for the activities of those at the very top. We want to make sure that bank employees at the lower levels are not held responsible or accountable and do not suffer the pain as a result of lay-offs and the like. We welcome the fact that the dialogue between the banks and the trade unions on a number of these issues has improved recently. As we take this matter forward, however, we will want to hear from the trade unions about what happens subsequently.
I also want to touch on the question of bonuses, which is related to the issue of staff but not properly part of the Committee’s remit, so I will allude to it only in passing. It was clear from the evidence that we took that the offence caused to many of those affected by the economic crisis by the paying of enormous bank bonuses was disproportionate. The issue was very high up the list of people’s priorities, even though people were not necessarily affected by it and notwithstanding the fact that those bonuses might not come to a lot if they were spread across all the bank’s clients. People simply saw the bonuses as immensely offensive and unfair, and the Committee’s view when the report was drawn up was that if we are all in this together, the Government—whichever Government—should be involved in ensuring that bonuses are curbed as much as possible. I very much welcome the fact that the previous Government dealt with that by introducing a levy and that the present Government have indicated that they intend to do something similar. We look forward to seeing the details.
As I said at the beginning, I hope that the report and this debate are not the end of the process. Given the significance of the banks to economic life in Scotland, I hope that the Committee will continue to keep these matters under review and that the Government will continue to work with the Scottish Government and others to ensure that there is an appropriate and constructive regulatory environment. So much economic development in Scotland depends on our getting our banking right. I hope that Committee members who are here today will be able to add to the points that I have made. I also hope that the Government will endorse the report and its conclusions, as they have already, and agree that most of the conclusions should be taken forward actively.
Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)
I am delighted to make a brief contribution to the debate. Although I represent a constituency south of the border, I retain a great affection for, and interest in, the Scottish banking system. I should declare that I retain my very first current account, which is with the Royal Bank of Scotland, and which I took out when I was in my first job. I hope that that shows that I have some interest in the debate and that what I have to say has some relevance.
The banking sector in Scotland has been a significant player in the Scottish economy for many years, and I hope that it will be for many years to come. I am relieved that, for all the problems that Scottish banks have gone through, they have avoided some of the major catastrophes that have befallen banks in Ireland and Iceland—I mention that with some trepidation because I do not want to reignite the arc of prosperity debate between the hon. Members for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) and, if I can get the pronunciation right, for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil)—that was not bad. I welcome the Committee’s finding that despite all the problems, Scottish banks’ reputation for excellence has not been permanently damaged. I am heartened that the Committee found that there are some signs of an upturn in the Scottish banking sector, with new investment taking place.
I want to make a specific point about the responsibility of Scottish banks, and indeed all banks, to promote good financial education among their existing customers and the population at large. I have fond memories of the time when the Royal Bank of Scotland came to my primary school in Hamilton to give us some basic lessons about how banks worked. It set up a small savings account, into which we were encouraged to deposit a small proportion of our pocket money. At a young age, that instilled in me some very basic and good lessons in sound finance. My friends might uncharitably say that I have kept those lessons with me and talk about my hesitation to contribute towards buying rounds and the like, but the lessons that I learned then were valuable.
Over the years, we have lost sight of such things. The events of the past couple of years have shown that all of us, including the Government, individuals, some businesses and the banks themselves, have lost sight of basic prudence—I seem to remember someone else using that word once in a while—which encouraged people to borrow only when it was sensible to do so and only for investment in genuine products, rather than just to fund current consumption. I want to use this opportunity to call on the banks to remember their responsibility. I am sure that they all have specific schemes in place and that they will say that they educate their customers and others in society, but I want to emphasise how important it is that they do that, that they do not lose sight of such things and that they do all they can to boost them.
I was concerned to read in the Committee’s report—the hon. Member for Glasgow South West expanded on this—of evidence that the banks are placing undue pressure on customers to take out products that might not be in their best interests and to take on more debt than is sensible. It causes me some concern that the lessons of the past few years have not been learned. I welcome the Government’s initiative to establish the consumer protection and markets authority. When the legislation to introduce the authority is introduced, a central part of its remit will be to remind the banks that they have an obligation to promote good financial education and sound financial advice so that we do not get back into a position where everyone—everyone probably is guilty of this in some respect—takes out too much debt, funding their lifestyle rather than sensible investments.
Julian Smith
Does my hon. Friend agree that we must also have transparency about deposit rates and good depositor information? I and other colleagues have constituents who are completely flummoxed by the way in which deposit systems work in banks, and a great deal more morality and transparency in that area would not go amiss.
Iain Stewart
My hon. Friend makes an important point, and I would extend it even further: any banking product should be utterly transparent so that people know what return they will get or what interest rate they will have to pay in the long term. People often get an attractive headline rate of interest for the first year or two, but then find themselves locked into a more punitive rate. As my hon. Friend says, better transparency across the board is vital, and I hope that that, too, will be a central theme of the new authority.
It has always been a central belief of mine that we have sound finance in this country, but we have lost sight of it, and I hope that the lessons have been learned by the banks and everyone else.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
I should perhaps start by assuring hon. Members that, unlike some of my hon. Friends, I have never been led astray by bad boys. Indeed, I have made a career of challenging bad boys’ behaviour and threatening that all sorts of awful things would happen to them if they continued to misbehave. With those opening remarks, I should perhaps move quickly on to the start of my brief comments.
I begin with the place that to me is perhaps the centre of the universe—Auchinleck, in my constituency. A few weeks ago, during an unexpected lull in the excitement of the football match at Beechwood Park, which for the uninitiated is the home of Auchinleck Talbot football club, I felt a tap on my shoulder and a constituent asked whether he could have a quiet word with me. I am not unused to that sort of thing happening. Usually it is about a particular problem, and I am usually able to tell the constituent that he can call me at the office, or we have a chat about it. However, in that instance, the constituent prefaced his remarks by saying, “Before you say anything else, I have to tell you that I am a banker.” He went on to make the serious point that often he cannot now tell people what his employment is. He is not one of the high fliers, one of the big bonus earners. He is simply someone in the middle management sections, or rather he was before he was let go—I think that those are the words used these days. He finds the situation very difficult because he personally has faced some of the opprobrium that has been heaped on the banking community as a result of what happened with the banks.
I place on the record my thanks to the previous members of the Scottish Affairs Committee for this thorough report. I will refer to some of its conclusions and recommendations. It was a thorough piece of work, and timely. We can think back to just how awful things were when some of the major banks in Scotland and, indeed, elsewhere were on the brink of extinction. I hope that no matter what side of the House hon. Members sit on, they will understand that Government intervention was necessary at that stage and had to take the form that it took in order to ensure that those banks survived.
I shall focus on a couple of the recommendations in the report. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) has already talked about bankers’ bonuses. It is clear when we talk to ordinary people on the doorstep that that issue is now in the public psyche. I am referring to the fact that many people in the banking system were simply paid far too much, very unfairly, and people did not see what those bankers had done to justify those very large amounts of money, when many of them were struggling to get by, whether on the minimum wage or on very low incomes, and were taking what they felt was the brunt of the crisis. We still have some way to go to convince people that that whole area has been evened out and that we have moved towards a fairer system.
My hon. Friend also referred to another point in the report—recommendation 5 in relation to viewing repossession as the last resort, saying that the banks and building societies should perhaps view matters differently. It took legislation, particularly in the Scottish Parliament, to ensure that that happened, because there were fears that, despite all the exhortations, the banks were still not looking at repossession as the last resort. Many people, particularly sole traders in small or medium-sized businesses, had been required to put their homes up as security in order for the businesses to continue and they found themselves in danger not only of losing their business for lack of finance, but of losing the roof over their head.
Some of the most awful experiences that I have had as an elected politician have involved seeing business men whom I knew to be pillars of my local community and who had contributed a huge amount in the local area suddenly finding themselves in very difficult times, coming to my surgery and breaking down in tears in my office because they felt that they had literally no one else to turn to. I hope that we shall not see any more of those situations and that people will be more sympathetic. In my role in the Scottish Parliament, I was one of the people who pushed for the relevant legislation.
I want to focus on the issue of fair treatment of customers, which has been mentioned and was the subject of recommendation 7. I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West has already referred to the wording:
“We conclude that banks continue to use aggressive tactics towards customers who have fallen into debt.”
Citizens Advice has given us an update on what that means for real people living in our communities. It states that, in 2009-10, 135,032 new debt issues were brought to Scotland’s advice bureaux, which helped people to deal with those issues. It states that more than 4,200 problems with bank accounts were brought to its bureaux in 2009-10 and that a number of those issues were connected with the interest and charges associated with the account, while a high number were connected with the difficulties of opening accounts. There are still situations in which that occurs, despite all that has happened.
We may talk about high finance and the economic impact of what is happening with the banks on a global scale, but many people living in our communities still cannot get a bank account that they can afford to operate, and of course they rely on that to be able to manage their business. Basic bank accounts are very important, but we should not underestimate the difficulty that people encounter if they do not have a credit history, if they have not been in employment or if they are a young person leaving the care system. In those circumstances, trying to open a bank account is extremely difficult, and there is much more to be done in that respect.
The report mentioned overdraft charges and, again, Citizens Advice Scotland has given us an update on some of the problems that people face. It says that clients report incurring overdraft charges due to mistakes often made by others, including the banks themselves, benefit agencies and companies failing to cancel direct debits.
People will be aware of the case that was taken up by the Office of Fair Trading and pursued very ably by Mike Dailly, the principal solicitor at Govan law centre, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West. He will know it very well. People still face real difficulties as a result of what are seen by the banks’ customers as unfair charges.
Let me give a couple of illustrations, because it is worth having on the record what Citizens Advice tells us. It says that one client
“accumulated over £1,000 in bank charges over a three month period while his bank refused his application for an approved overdraft limit.”
The client was overdrawn by £270 and simply wanted an overdraft facility so that he could make arrangements to pay off the money that he owed without facing multiple charges. A single mother was being charged £5 by her bank for every day that she was overdrawn and £25 for every transaction that she made during that period. That woman was living on income support with a five-year-old daughter. Incurring bank charge after bank charge after bank charge, with no assistance to get out of those problems, is no way forward for people in those circumstances.
Again, my hon. Friend was right to highlight the problems in relation to set-off. If anyone has ever lived in a situation in which every penny is a prisoner, and they have to budget and know exactly where their money is coming from and where it is going week to week, they will know that they can manage in many instances because they have a degree of certainty. What is impossible for people on very low incomes to cope with is the unexpected. For some people, the right of set-off means that earnings that were paid into the bank were taken without their knowledge and without any discussion with them beforehand and were used to pay their debts. I am not suggesting for a moment that people should not pay their debts or should not be helped to budget where that is appropriate, but many people on low incomes are very good at budgeting.
What is happening is simply not acceptable. Citizens Advice gives the example of a lone parent’s bank taking £400 from her account to repay debts without her permission. After her wages had been paid in, that money was taken out and she had literally no money at all to live on. In another case, a client’s bank used the right of set-off to put the client’s wages towards arrears on a loan. That individual was working only 10 hours a week and receiving £11 a week in benefits. When they were paid, the bank took the full amount towards the arrears, leaving the individual with no funds whatever. There is more to look at on that.
The banks are saying in their responses that it is now easier for businesses to borrow, but I think that there are still difficulties. I regularly hear from start-up businesses that they have to use personal loans or continue to use their homes or other security. They are not able to access funding that would help to match the start-up funding that may be available for the business, so there is a disjoint in those contexts. There are still difficulties for businesses suffering temporary cash-flow problems. A reputable business in my area with lots of orders coming through contacted me recently. Simply due to delays in receiving payment owed for contracts, they are in a difficult cash-flow situation and looking to their bank to give flexibility, but they are not getting it.
In conclusion, I want to return to where I started in Auchinleck, which is not a bad place to return to, and talk about financial education. The hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) mentioned the days when there was a bank book and one could pay in money; in my school days it was into the Trustee Savings bank, and in my constituency it is the Cumnock and Doon Valley credit union, which goes into schools and has a junior credit union in Auchinleck primary school. Ironically, in the same week that some bailed-out banks sent letters advising me that I could go along and hear what they were doing about financial education in schools, I paid a visit to the young people who run the junior savers scheme in Auchinleck primary school. They seem to have got the message pretty clearly. They were involved in taking the money, keeping the accounts and looking at what they were responsible for, which was highlighted when the photographer who came to look at what we were doing asked whether he could have a pound coin out of the cashbox to illustrate what was happening. The young people said no, because he was not a member of the credit union, and it was not his money or their money to give away. I will finish on that very salient point. Others should perhaps take note.
Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
I was not a member of the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs in the previous Parliament, but I want to congratulate its then members on the excellent report that they produced, and congratulate the new Chair, the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson), on securing the debate today. I agree that it is important for the Committee to keep banking services in Scotland under review because the banks are obviously an important and essential part of our economy.
The analysis of how we got here is fairly straightforward. For far too long the banks were undertaking far too much risky lending, and when panic broke out, they went to the opposite extreme and lent hardly anything at all. We would have hoped that the situation would improve, but time after time, when I meet the owners of small businesses in my constituency, I get the same story: they are finding it very difficult to get loans from the banks, even for viable projects or when they have a good order book. Often, even established companies find that they cannot get a loan from the bank on reasonable terms.
There is clearly a lack of competition. Business owners tell me that, even if they go to other banks for a better deal, the cost of moving from one to another is prohibitive. They have to pay a break fee to the bank that they are with and pay a joining fee to the bank to which they want to transfer, so the cost of the switch far outweighs any benefit that they might get from a slightly better deal. I hope that the Government will look at that and investigate how we can have genuine competition in the banking industry. Small business owners often say to me, “Please don’t write anything down” or “Please don’t take this up with the bank”, because they are frightened that, if the bank knew that they had dared to complain, the situation would get worse. Although there may not be evidence coming forward, I and other hon. Members I am sure have found that the same problem exists for many small businesses.
I was pleased that the Government response to the Committee report stated that they believed that banks need to promote lending to SMEs better and that they would be working with the industry on disclosure of regional lending data. I hope that the Minister can update us today on progress on that.
Concerns from individuals are often about unfair banking charges, which is a subject that goes back many years. It has not just happened since the banking crisis of two years ago; for many years before that, people complained about unfair charges. Someone may inadvertently go into overdraft for a day or a few hours, and suddenly huge charges appear on their account, and that can often be the start of debt. For someone on a very small income, for whom every penny is a prisoner, a charge of £30 or £40 can be the start of deeper debt.
The previous Committee recommended that the regulatory authorities monitor banks for bad practice. The Government response was that they were introducing measures to end unfair bank and financial transaction charges, on which I hope the Minister can update us. Other hon. Members mentioned the evidence that Citizens Advice Scotland gave in its update for the debate, but it is important to stress it again. It said that banks are listening more, but the problem is not getting them to listen, but getting them to act. I hope that the Minister will look at that and mention it in his response. I was pleased to note that the Government said in their response that they were committed to providing a free national financial advice service and an annual family financial health check, which the new social responsibility levy on the financial services sector would fund. They said that financial support for Citizens Advice Scotland would be considered in the spending review. I know that the Minister cannot pre-empt the spending review, but I hope that we will get good news either today or next Wednesday.
It is important that banks have a presence in local communities, particularly remote communities, which many in my constituency are. Banking managers based in large towns or cities cannot properly understand small remote communities. That issue was brought to the fore last year when HBOS decided to reorganise its small business managers. Until then, managers were based in many communities in my constituency, but it withdrew them. There was complete uproar on the Island of Islay at the thought of losing the local business manager. It is only fair to HBOS to say that the reason why nearly all the businesses on the island were its customers was that it had a local business manager on the island, unlike the other banks. Many small businesses were with HBOS because it had provided a better service. The decision to take the manager away and operate with managers based on the mainland caused uproar, and there was a massive campaign to keep the local manager. It is important that banks have roots in local communities, and HBOS made a big mistake by withdrawing the business manager and having people phone managers on the mainland. A manager occasionally coming to see small businesses is not the correct way to run a banking business.
Finally, on the theme of banks in small communities, I have long supported the campaign for a post bank, and I hope that the Government will take it forward. A bank based at the local post office would provide much better banking services to small, remote communities—both to businesses and to individuals. I hope that the Government will develop the idea, and that we might see a post bank before long.
Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)
I declare an interest as a trustee of the Consumer Credit Counselling Service in Scotland. I act in a voluntary capacity, with no remuneration. The CCCS is a debt advice charity, which has been greatly active on many of the matters raised by my hon. Friends and others during this welcome debate.
The debate is about a most welcome report. As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) said, the report, which was thorough and worth while, was published at the end of the previous Parliament. It was incredibly important, given the estimated one in 10 jobs in Scotland that are linked to the long-standing financial services industry. Jobs, of course, have subsequently been lost in Scotland, as they have elsewhere, bank branches have closed, and the whole economy has been affected by the credit crunch.
On this, my fourth day in my new role as shadow Financial Secretary, I anticipate having many debates on financial services and their impact on consumers in all corners of the country. Although I spoke far too much and at great length in my previous guise as a Back Bencher, I will take this opportunity to reiterate my default position on many of these matters and, in particular, on the three clear questions that I believe are fundamental to my new portfolio.
First, what reforms are necessary to minimise the systemic risk to a well functioning economy and society following the experience of the credit crunch? Secondly, how can we create a thriving and healthy financial services industry in the United Kingdom, including in Scotland, rebuilding it with a reputation for sustainability, solidity and trust? Thirdly, how can we ensure greater fairness for the consumers of financial services products, so that the industry operates on the basis of common sense and fair play?
It is heartening that many of the contributors to this debate not only focused on what might sometimes seem to be ethereal issues between the players in the industry, but considered matters very much from the consumer perspective, speaking of people’s encounters with issues that are central to their lives.
The report contains an excellent collection of evidence, taken over a long period, going back to November and December 2009. I am glad that my hon. Friend referred to the visits to Ireland and to evidence heard elsewhere, successfully bringing in the arc of prosperity and making important points on the changing circumstances and the erroneous arguments made by members of the Scottish National party.
Many interesting lessons on the housing market, on public sector deficit reduction and its impact on growth, on the regulation of credit rating agencies and so forth, are all brought out in the report. Perhaps most notable is the impact of the credit crunch on Scotland in respect of changes to the Royal Bank of Scotland and Halifax Bank of Scotland—HBOS—and we should not forget the difficulties that affected Dunfermline building society. The report is an eloquent exposition or post-mortem of the lessons that need to be learned from that period, and it is worth reiterating them.
Julian Smith
The report was eloquent. Did it make the hon. Gentleman reflect on the Labour Government’s role in what went wrong, and the lax regulatory regime that had been allowed to develop, which was the source of many of the problems for the financial services industry in Scotland?
Chris Leslie
Certainly we all have lessons to learn from the credit crunch. Countries across the world, including the UK, did not frame correctly the regulatory environment in which financial services operated. That is absolutely clear. However, it reminds me that we do not state often enough that it was the previous Labour Administration who saved our economy from falling over the cliff edge and into the abyss. Although the current Administration sometimes give the impression that they would not have committed the resources necessary to achieve that, I believe that any Administration of any colour would have had to take those steps. I am proud that my party did so, even though that may be the root cause of some of the deficit questions that have subsequently arisen.
Key lessons need to be learned. Too few people had proper cognisance of the true liabilities on the books of our major banks, either because of the complexity of the various products involved or because of the poor risk assessment of those financial instruments. Banks were over-reliant on the wholesale capital markets to finance their investments and lending, which created excessively leveraged positions and left the banks incapable of coping with the freezing up of the wholesale markets. In addition, the underlying market sentiment, which, like the banking practices, had existed for a long time, implied an assumption of continuous expansion, creating expectations of never-ending profitability with high-scale rewards and bonuses, which clouded the judgment of too many practitioners in the sector.
Julian Smith
Would the shadow Minister say that the banks were merely reflecting the zeitgeist and the leadership of the Government of the time by over-extending themselves, living beyond their means and paying far too much for their work force?
Chris Leslie
Much as we in politics might like to think that everything done in the political game shapes society at large, my view is that the economy and society around us—not only in this country but in the world at large—suffered from too much exuberance when it came to the allure and attraction of profitability in that sector. We should have taken a far more hard-headed approach all round. Much as I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on trying to make a party political point about the root cause of the global credit crunch, it would not be fair to pin it on one or two politicians in one or two countries. The problem was systemic and we must all learn the lessons from it; otherwise it will be repeated—and that will affect Scotland as well as the rest of the world.
HBOS was merged with Lloyds TSB to form Lloyds Banking Group, and subsequently took advantage of Government capitalisation, which led to 43% public ownership. RBS received public funds resulting in 63% public ownership, rising to about 84% with subsequent injections of new capital. Special liquidity support and a number of other instruments created circumstances where the Government were very much foisted into the driving seat of our financial services industry.
The Government set a number of conditions, and I am glad that the present Administration have maintained a number of them. They include urging the banks to maintain competitive lending to retail and business customers at 2007 levels and encouraging the banks to deal with several of the failings that they experienced, including issues of remuneration, restricting dividend payments, helping people struggling with mortgage payments and so on. Of course, experience tells us that we still need to hold the feet of the banks to the commitments drawn out of them in exchange for the resources that were given to save their very existence. We should certainly ask the Government and the Minister to what extent they are succeeding.
Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his new role as shadow Minister. Does he agree that some of the rhetoric used, such as “holding the banks’ feet to the fire”, has created an awful situation for many of those working on the front line in the banks, who receive abuse or suffer the emotional difficulties that some Members have described today? We need to move away from that rhetoric and towards the understanding that only a small group of people were involved. The main reason for the banks’ difficulties was the lack of regulation in the past 10 years or so. The banks became such complex organisations that they almost lost control over what they were doing. Unfortunately, it is those now on the front line who are taking abuse for what was done by those who have now moved on to other highly paid roles.
Chris Leslie
I understand where the hon. Gentleman is coming from. It would be unfortunate if a cashier or teller was wrongly blamed by a member of the public for something that their bank or institution had done. I know that only a small number of individuals were involved in what happened, but this is an institutional problem and not just a personalised one. We cannot just change the faces of the directors at HBOS or RBS and expect that all the problems will be ironed out. Although we must consider the regulatory environment, we should understand that the problem is more the culture of the companies in that sector in general. As we know from other circumstances, Government can cajole and set the rules, but ultimately they are not the ones who should be running those firms responsibly. Good corporate governance should have taken a different path; it did not in the credit crunch. I hope that we can get things back on the rails, so that we have a sustainable and solid—perhaps some would say boring—financial services sector in future, and regain some of the trust that the City and the financial services industry both here and in Scotland truly deserve.
The report raises issues that definitely deserve attention. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West talked about the bonuses paid to high earners and the juxtaposition between ordinary front-line staff and the well paid senior executives. I am glad that the previous Chancellor instituted that one-off bank bonus levy of 50% on discretionary bonuses above £25,000. It yielded £2 billion, which was far more than expected. It will be interesting to watch how the current Administration and the Minister seek to deal with the ongoing concerns of the general public about excessive remuneration. Those concerns are legitimate and need to be addressed to rebuild the trust that is much deserved by those who are genuinely working hard to do their best in a very complex industry.
The hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) mentioned the willingness of banks to lend to businesses. Discussions are under way with the British Bankers’ Association and others, and reports have been published today. We are hearing many conflicting reports. The banks themselves are adamant that money is available, yet the reports that we consistently receive in our surgeries across the country is that small and medium-sized enterprises are finding the hurdles that they have to jump over too high and that, too often, banks are not willing to do business with them. That exerts a lag effect on our economy in general and the problem definitely needs the Minister’s attention. We want the commitments that were given at the time of the rescue of the banking sector to be properly enforced. We should also see the public stake in our banking sector activated. Given that the public own that stake, they, like any owner of any company, should be able to ask that lending arrangements are fulfilled in the best interests of our economy.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban)
Will the hon. Gentleman clarify whether he is moving away from the previous Government’s position of managing RBS and Lloyds Bank at arm’s length to one in which the Government play an active role in their day-to-day management and lending decisions?
Chris Leslie
I certainly do not mean in the day-to-day lending decisions. That would be an incredible position for a politician to take with a bank. None the less, our constituents could legitimately say that if we—through the Treasury and UK Financial Investments—hold a stake on their behalf in these large institutions that play such a valuable part in all our lives, but do not ask questions about the commitments that were given and do not scrutinise the attention that banks are paying to those commitments, we are failing in our duties. That is my point. There is a level of active scrutiny, attention and challenge that the Government should adopt in that respect.
It is important, too, to focus on the point made in the report about lending to homeowners. Although it did not crop up often in the debate, that is a problem in Scotland. First-time buyers are more likely to find it hard to get mortgage finance. The deposit currently required is something in the order of 25%, which is an incredible burden on many of my hon. Friends’ constituents. The Chartered Institute of Housing says that there are more problems with house lending arrangements in Scotland than there are in the rest of the UK.
Concerns about the fair treatment of customers were well set out. They include unfair banking charges and the mark-up in rates of interest. The difference between the wholesale rate of interest that the banks pay and the rate of interest that they charge their customers, both businesses and retail, has been growing, probably fuelled by the requirement of the banks to rebuild their own balance sheets. None the less, that is something that customers in Scotland and elsewhere are extremely sceptical about. There are also questions about aggressive debt collection. My hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) said that something like 135,000 debt problems had been brought to Scottish citizens advice bureaux in 2009-10. The massive job of providing such advice is falling on the shoulders of a very poorly funded voluntary sector in Scotland.
The hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) raised the important topic of financial education. I should like to see us revisit the extent to which the national curriculum explores how we teach young people about the basics of money. Certainly, it is the responsibility of the new consumer protection markets authority to consider that as well in due course.
This debate has been very worth while. Both directly and indirectly, banking has a massive effect on the lives of people in Scotland. The report is a perfect example of how the Scottish Affairs Committee speaks out for the interests of Scotland.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban)
First, let me congratulate both the Chair of the Select Committee on opening this debate, and you, Mr Rosindell, on chairing your first Westminster Hall sitting. You need no lessons from the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) on controlling bad boys.
This is a helpful report. Every hon. Member at the start of their speech has positioned themselves in relation to it. It was my predecessor, Lord Myners, who gave oral evidence to the Committee, but it is this Government who responded to the report. I want to take the opportunity to talk through our response and the progress that we have made since July and to address some of the issues that hon. Members have raised. It is worth bearing in mind some of the remarks that have been made about the Scottish financial services sector. Although the problems at RBS and Lloyds TSB and the failure of the Dunfermline building society cast a long shadow, they are only part of the Scottish financial service sector—a point made to me when I visited fund managers and insurers in Edinburgh earlier this year.
It was more than 300 years ago that William Paterson founded both the Bank of Scotland and the Bank of England. Today, that heritage of innovation, education, and expertise is still very much alive, and reaches across a whole range of financial services, beyond the roots of banking in Scotland in the 17th century. General insurance, life and pensions, asset management and related services all have a place in Scotland’s financial hubs of Glasgow and Edinburgh, and also in people’s high streets. We think of financial services as being related to the City, Canary Wharf or the big centres in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen, but of course they are part of our high streets too. We cannot forget that.
Some of the reasons why we see a vibrant financial services sector in Scotland are the highly talented and educated work force, the strong infrastructure and the first-class support businesses such as law and accountancy, which all provide a firm foundation for the Scottish financial services sector. I believe that the sector will play a role in our recovery and future prosperity, not only in Scotland but in the United Kingdom as a whole. However, that will happen only if it reconnects with businesses and families.
The financial services sector in Scotland has been through difficult times. Extraordinary action has been taken to restore stability to the financial services sector, as the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) said in his remarks. Since March, when the Committee’s report was published, I think that the situation in Scotland and throughout the UK has improved considerably. Actions taken by financial authorities, along with improving global conditions, have enabled banks and building societies to stabilise, begin restructuring and slowly start to restore consumers’ trust.
However, we must continue to be vigilant. We cannot take the strength of Scotland’s financial sector for granted and I welcome the Committee’s contribution to the discussion about how improvements can be made. The opportunity exists now to deliver real and lasting reform of the financial sector, to ensure that it is stronger, safer and more resilient. The Government are determined to deliver that reform.
In the future, we must examine the structure of banking, including the links between size, risk and competition. To that end, we have tasked the Independent Commission on Banking, under the chairmanship of Sir John Vickers, to consider structural and non-structural reforms to the UK banking sector, in order to promote stability and competition.
My hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) talked about competition in the banking sector. Clearly, we need to think about issues such as the transparency of the financial information available to customers, so that they know how much their bank account is costing them. During an intervention, my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) talked about improving data on interest rates and the Government have made steps, following a super-complaint on individual savings accounts, to ensure that there is much more transparency and that people can move their accounts from one provider to another more quickly.
Cathy Jamieson
As a follow-up to that point, I wonder whether the Minister can ensure that the mutual sector is not unfairly disadvantaged, given that it largely avoided the problems that we have seen with some of the other banks. Will he ensure that any changes in legislation support the continuation of the mutual sector?
Mr Hoban
Indeed. I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for mentioning that point, because one of the commitments in the coalition agreement is, of course, to foster diversity and ownership in the financial services sector, including strengthening the mutual sector. The hon. Lady’s intervention also reminds me that she raised issues about set-off. I know that set-off is very important to many consumers and she will be pleased to know that the Financial Services Authority is reviewing it at the moment.
I was talking about reducing risk and the role of the Independent Commission on Banking. The debate about how we reduce risk is not just a UK debate. We have been at the forefront of developing common international standards of regulation—for example, in Basel and through the capital requirements directive negotiations in the EU. In addition, we have led the way in developing approaches to minimise the risk of failure and to ensure that, when failures do occur, the call on the taxpayer is minimised. Of course, it was the previous Government who introduced the special resolution regime, which we supported, and “living wills”—the recovery and resolution plans that were in the Financial Services Act 2010. We also supported that measure.
We will continue to work with international colleagues to ensure that the implementation and sequencing of regulatory changes are taken forward in a way that balances the need to act now on the lessons of the crisis with the need to maintain the competitiveness of the industry.
A number of hon. Members talked about the regulatory framework. Clearly, the reputation and long-term success of Scotland’s banks also depend on trust. Customers need to know that they will be treated fairly and appropriately by all financial institutions. The robust regulatory framework that we are creating will help to cement the attractiveness of Scotland’s financial sector, by providing certainty for banks and confidence for consumers without stifling innovation and growth.
We have learned the lessons from the financial crisis and set out a radical reform to the architecture of financial regulation that we inherited. Earlier this year, the Chancellor announced that the Government will legislate to create a new prudential regulation authority as a subsidiary of the Bank of England. The PRA will be responsible for prudential regulation of all deposit-taking institutions, insurers and investment banks. It will cover all issues affecting the safety and soundness of individual firms, including remuneration. It will have the focus, expertise and mandate to ensure effective prudential supervision and regulation of individual firms, thereby strengthening the UK’s financial system and its resilience to future crises.
We will ensure that financial regulation delivers financial services and markets that are secure and within which private individuals, small businesses and multinational firms have all the information available to them to make the right choices, as well as the right level of protection if things should go wrong. That is crucial.
Consequently, alongside the PRA we will establish a consumer protection and markets agency, which will be a new and integrated conduct regulator. The CPMA will take a tougher, more proactive and more focused approach to regulating conduct in financial services and markets. That will ensure that the behaviour of firms—whether they are based in the high street or trade in high finance—is placed at the heart of the regulatory system, giving consumers greater clarity. The CPMA’s primary objective will be to ensure confidence in financial services and markets, with a particular focus on protecting consumers and ensuring market integrity.
Appropriate regulation is vital to instilling confidence in financial services, protecting customers’ interests and ensuring clean and efficient markets, where both retail and wholesale customers can engage confidently and with the degree of protection appropriate to their needs.
Regulators are continuing to monitor firms for poor practice and they will develop new initiatives to ensure that consumers are treated fairly. A specific focus will be given to cases of unarranged overdraft charges. Working alongside the industry, the Office of Fair Trading has developed commitments on unarranged overdraft charges. They include an agreement that consumers should be able to opt out of unarranged overdraft facilities and minimum standards for how that process of opting-out should work.
Furthermore, earlier this week we laid the regulations to turn on the new section 404 powers—a provision in the Financial Services Act 2010, which was passed just before the election—that will enable the FSA to require firms to establish consumer redress schemes. We believe that it is right to turn that provision on.
However, we also need to ensure that consumers have advice at their fingertips. We have already announced the introduction of an annual financial health check. That check will help families and individuals to get into the habit of taking a thorough look at their finances. It will show them where they are most at risk and how they can regain control of their finances and plan for the future. It will give people a “prescription” that will offer clear advice on what they can do to improve their financial situation now and for the years ahead.
My hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) and the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun talked about the importance of inculcating the habit of saving among children early on in their lives—indeed, the hon. Member for Nottingham East also highlighted that issue. It is absolutely vital. Of course, it is a responsibility that we all share and it is an idea that is supported by a number of financial services bodies.
The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun mentioned the Cumnock and Doon Valley credit union. Across the UK, credit unions play an important role in this area of education. I have been to see a project that HSBC sponsors in primary schools; I saw it in the Wallisdean infant school in my own constituency. It was quite interesting to talk to children between five and seven about the importance of saving and spending. Clearly, even at that early age they have thought about this issue very carefully.
The new consumer financial education body will roll out the national financial advice service, which will be free and impartial. Of course, that service will be funded by the industry through a social responsibility levy. The cost of the service will not be picked up by the taxpayer; the service will be industry-funded, as part of the industry’s contribution to tackling some of these issues. I think that the service will help consumers throughout the UK to get the best from their financial providers and to give them the information that they need to manage their finances responsibly. The service will be further complemented by the simple products initiative that we announced in July.
The hon. Member for Glasgow South West raised the issue of repossessions. I say to him that in 2009 47,700 homes were repossessed, compared with an estimate that 75,000 would be repossessed. In the first quarter of this year, 9,800 homes were repossessed and in the second quarter 9,400 homes were. In part, that is due to the forbearance of lenders, but clearly the low interest rate environment has made it possible for more people to stay in their own homes. That is to be welcomed. [Interruption.]
Andrew Rosindell (in the Chair)
Order. There is a Division in the House. Would the Minister like to finish his comments now, or shall I suspend the sitting?
Andrew Rosindell (in the Chair)
Okay. The sitting will be suspended for 15 minutes. Order.
Mr Hoban
I want to respond to the comment made by my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute about the Post Office bank. Part of the coalition agreement was that we would consider the case for a Post Office bank. He will know that the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), has responsibility for the Post Office. We are looking through the options at the moment and thinking about how the Post Office can expand the scope of the financial services that it offers across the counter. That would be of benefit to many—particularly those in rural areas, where the nearest post office may be closer than the nearest bank.
I shall move on to address the issue of lending to small and medium-sized businesses, which has cropped up in a number of contributions. Banks can and do play a critical role in providing finance for new start-ups, growing enterprises and our largest corporations. A thriving banking sector is therefore critical for our economic recovery. Ensuring the flow of credit to small and medium-sized enterprises is particularly essential to supporting growth. In Scotland alone, SMEs account for more than 1 million jobs, so they are an important part of the economy in not just Scotland, but every constituency and part of the nation.
The importance of getting credit flowing to SMEs meant that the Chancellor made a series of announcements in the June Budget. There was the extension of £200 million to the enterprise finance guarantee scheme, which will benefit 2,000 additional small businesses across the UK and bring the lending covered by the EFG up to £700 million. In addition, an enterprise capital fund to support small businesses with high growth potential was announced, combining both Government and private sector funding. In July, we also published a Green Paper on financing a private sector recovery—consultation on that has closed—which considered a broad range of finance options for businesses of different sizes, including bank lending. We will respond formally to that in the next few weeks.
The Select Committee’s report expressed concern about the availability of lending and whether Scottish banks are truly open for business. Again, those concerns have been mentioned in the debate. Today the banks have published, through the British Bankers Association taskforce, a series of measures to help improve customer relationships, promote better access to finance and, crucially, provide better information on the availability of and demand for credit. That point was raised by the Chair of the Select Committee and by my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute.
One of the things that prompted the proposal to bring together better information is this debate. When I talk to banks’ chief executive officers, as I do regularly, they say that they have enough capacity to lend to small businesses, but that the demand is not there. When we talk to small businesses—hon. Members have raised various examples from their own constituencies—they say that they do not believe the banks are interested in listening. Part of that might be a pricing issue. The survey, which will be based on information supplied by the banks but prepared independently of the banks, will address those issues and raise the quality of information. It will enable us to scrutinise the banks more closely about their lending practices, including the rate at which they are lending.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
This discussion has always struck me as a bit odd, because banks need to lend to make money. I understand the things that the Government are doing—the two things that the Minister mentioned—but are there not two real issues here? First, it is not that UK banks are lending less; it is simply that a lot of foreign banks have left the market and UK banks have not filled that gap.
Secondly, the banks’ real issue is the requirement that has been placed on them to rebuild their balance sheets and to change their credit ratios in the run-up to Basel 3. They have less money because the Government are effectively telling them to do two contradictory things: to lend more; and to rebuild their balance sheets and have better capital ratios.
Mr Hoban
My hon. Friend raises two interesting points. On his second point, a number of banks have raised the point about whether the capital requirements restrict their lending. The agreement reached last month on Basel 3 requires banks to raise their core tier 1 capital to 7%. UK banks are already well placed to achieve that, so that is less of a constraint. They have been given until 2018 to achieve that level, which will enable them to phase in the increased capital requirement, so I do not think that that necessarily acts as a disincentive to lend.
The other side of the argument relates to the risk attached to lending to SMEs, which is an issue that banks have raised with me. The Bank of England’s financial stability report stated that there is scope for banks both to build capital and to continue lending to the real economy, so that is less of a concern than my hon. Friend suggests. However, he made the valid point that a number of foreign banks have exited the market, creating a gap that several UK banks have sought to fill, and we should not overlook that fact in any debate on banking.
It is important that we have the necessary information available to be able to hold banks to account on lending across all parts of the UK. I know that the Scottish Government, in the absence of that information, commissioned a review of lending in February 2010. When we start to look at the regional data, we will be helped by the fact that the banks will want to engage in an outreach programme at regional level, through chambers of commerce, to start to discuss what is happening in the sector on a regional basis. It is not only about what is going on in London and in the headquarters; it is also about engaging in the regions. That is an important part of the process.
Much more data on mortgage lending are available through the Council of Mortgage Lenders, which publishes regional and national data. A positive story on that from Scotland is that mortgages to the value of £1.4 billion were advanced there in the second quarter, compared with £1.1 billion in the first quarter. That increase in Scotland is actually greater than the increase for the rest of the UK as a whole, so clearly we should recognise that there is strength in the Scottish housing market.
In addition to the enhanced information requirements that banks are committed to, they have agreed to establish and invest in a new business growth fund, which will build up to £1.5 billion. That will help to address the equity gap and will be aimed at investments in the £2 million to £10 million bracket. All previous Governments have thought about and tried to fill that gap. The banks are going to try to fill it in that practical way, as 3i, or the Industrial and Commercial Finance Corporation, did in the past. We have been absolutely clear that banks need to improve the lending environment for small businesses, and we welcome the taskforce’s report as an important first step. It is now important that banks deliver on that.
Bonuses were referred to several times in the debate. We need to bring about a cultural change in the sector. The issues on bonuses that were mentioned in the report are at the heart of that. Recent stories of bank bonuses have caused concern, which is understandable given the current environment.
The Government are taking action. We have already introduced a permanent bank levy, which will raise £2.5 billion—something the previous Government refused to do—and we will shortly consult on a remuneration disclosure regime that will require the disclosure of detailed pay information from large banking organisations operating in the UK. Performance-related pay is an important part of rewarding valuable contributions, but it must be reward for long-term success that takes into account an appropriate level of risk. It is important not to abolish bonuses, but to ensure that they encourage the right sort of behaviour.
The FSA issued a consultation paper on a revised remuneration code of practice in July, laying out detailed principles that will require not only large banks, but a wider range of financial services firms, to establish remuneration policies that are consistent with effective risk management on a proportionate basis. The Government are also exploring with international partners the costs and benefits of a financial activities tax on profits and remuneration. When I talk to banks operating in the UK, they say that the UK regime is tougher than those in place elsewhere in the world. That is a matter of complaint for them, but I think that it is something from which we can take a degree of satisfaction.
In conclusion, the UK economy turned a corner in 2010, but the recovery of both our economy and our financial services industry will necessarily be gradual. It is vital that we act now to support a sustained recovery, backed by a resilient financial services industry that serves the needs of consumers and the broader economy. In that recovery, Scotland will continue to be proud of its long history in providing financial services and of the new financial centres that are emerging. It strikes me as entirely appropriate that Scotland, which pioneered the modern-day ATM, should now host the headquarters of one of our new financial services players, Tesco Personal Finance. We are confident that the Government’s proposals will restore to Scotland a secure, profitable and sustainable banking sector that will be capable of serving the customers, businesses and economy of Scotland.
Mr Davidson
I express my gratitude to all those who have contributed, not only to the debate, but to the report. That includes our witnesses and those who provided written evidence. Some of the contributions have been excellent. I hope that the Government Whips have taken note of the expressions of undying loyalty that were made by some of the newer Members. Nevertheless, I am sure that they will develop out of that in due course. I also thank the staff of the Scottish Affairs Committee for all their work in preparing for the debate and the report.
When I was much younger, there used to be various cartoon characters who could rub a brass lamp and say, “Abracadabra”, so that a genie appeared. Earlier, I mentioned the arc of prosperity and a nationalist appeared. In some mysterious way, he disappeared thereafter. I have mentioned the arc of prosperity again, so I am waiting to see whether he will pop in again.
The wider matters to which the Minister referred—I understand entirely why he did so—are more the responsibility of the Treasury Committee than of our Committee. We have tended—rightly, I believe—to restrict ourselves to those aspects that impact on Scotland. However, I was heartened by what he said about encouraging the mutual sector. Several of my colleagues, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson), will be looking at ways in which we can have a discussion about the mutual sector in Scotland. I hope that in due course we will have some dialogue with the Minister on that. As we have done elsewhere, we hope to have some informal sessions with witnesses before moving to formal hearings and visits, which will be helpful.
We are likely to support some of the changes that the Minister outlined that seem to be moving in the right direction, but there are areas on which we would like ongoing dialogue and input from his staff when we prepare documents. It is not immediately clear, for example, how overdraft charges will be handled. It seems to me that there is a need for ongoing discussion on how those proposals will be implemented and what their impact will be.
I welcome the fact, which the report made clear, that Scotland remains a good place to do financial services business. The question now is how the Committee adds value to that whole exercise. In our discussions, we have identified several areas where the system seems to be breaking down. [Interruption.] I thought that that was a nationalist returning, having mentioned the arc of prosperity, but it is not.
The construction, road haulage and video games industries—the three industrial groups that we met—all said that the banks did not understand them properly. We ought to turn our attention to various steps that we can take to improve those relationships.
Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)
Perhaps I could provide more recent information than the Minister did. The Bank of England’s Agents’ summary of business conditions in September reported:
“Smaller businesses, and those operating in the construction and property sectors, continued to report difficulty in accessing affordable finance. For these businesses, fees and spreads remained significantly higher than pre-crisis levels”.
Does my hon. Friend agree that there is further work to be done in those areas?
Mr Davidson
That is a helpful contribution—there clearly is further work to be done in those areas—which runs along the lines of not only our report but, to be fair, the Minister’s contribution. The Government recognise that more work needs to be done.
We need to continue to focus on the two elements of lending—mortgage lending and lending to businesses—and also on how the banking industry deals with its customers. The Minister has advanced general principles and rules, but the question is whether they will be implemented in practice, and we will want to follow through on that.
The interventions by the Government in several areas are very much to be welcomed, and I have no hesitation in welcoming something that is said by the Government. New Members will no doubt recognise that no thunderbolt has arrived and, therefore, that it is entirely possible for people from one party to recognise that something done by a different party is good. I hope that the new Members who are here will undertake to pass that on to colleagues who have left the Chamber.
In conclusion, this has been an excellent exercise. We have heard witnesses, drawn up the report, held this debate today and come to a general consensus on the importance of the banking industry to Scotland and the need to go forward working together to improve the economy of Scotland. I hope that we continue to work together for the next couple of years or so.
Question put and agreed to.
Restricting Pensions Tax Relief
(14 years ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban)
The Government provide generous tax relief to save for a pension, to encourage individuals to take responsibility for retirement planning and to recognise that pensions are less flexible than other forms of saving. The cost of tax relief net of income tax paid on pensions paid doubled under the last Government to around £19 billion per annum by 2008-09.
To ensure that pensions tax relief remains fair and affordable, the Government confirmed in the June Budget that they would proceed with the previous Government’s goal to reduce the cost of pensions tax relief by about £4 billion per annum. It was clear, however, that the previous Government’s approach to achieving this introduced significant complexity into the tax system, undermined pension saving and damaged UK businesses and competitiveness.
We announced in the June Budget that we would seek an alternative approach that limited the amount of tax relief that those who make the highest pension contribution receive, while ensuring generous incentives and flexibility for the vast majority of pension savers. We believed that such a system would be fairer, preserve incentives to save and would lessen the impact on the ability of UK businesses to attract and retain talent. This view has been confirmed by the response to the informal consultation we held over the summer.
So today, the Government are announcing that, from April 2011, the annual allowance (AA) for tax-privileged pension saving will be reduced from £255,000 to £50,000 and that from April 2012 the lifetime allowance (LTA) will be reduced from £1.8 million to £1.5 million. These changes will generate around £4 billion annual revenue in the steady state, protecting public finances.
Because we want a system that balances the needs of those in defined benefit (DB) and defined contribution (DC) schemes, the reduced AA applies to both types of schemes. Further, the deemed contributions to DB schemes will be calculated via a simple “flat factor” method. Reflecting the Government Actuary’s advice, the level of the factor will be set at 16. Again, this achieves a fair balance between DB and DC schemes. The Government Actuary’s report is publicly available on the HM Treasury website from today.
More detail on the policy specification and impacts can be found in a summary of responses to the July discussion document, and draft clauses for the AA regime (including transitional arrangements), also available on the website from today.
The Government anticipate that most individuals and employers will look to adapt their pension saving behaviour and remuneration terms to ensure that their pension contributions remain below the AA. However, we recognise that for traditional DB schemes this will be more difficult because changes in circumstances can lead to one-off spikes in pension accruals. We have sought to mitigate the impact of this through a more generous AA than we originally proposed. Further, where the pension tax charge exceeds the AA, we have proposed that unused allowance from up to the three previous years will be carried forward to offset against the excess contribution. In the interests of fairness, this will be available for DB and DC schemes. This will provide protection for the vast majority of people on moderate incomes. In the exceptional cases where this mitigation is not sufficient, we will introduce further measures to ensure that individuals will not have to pay large charges from their current income. We will consult on options to give individuals and schemes more flexibility over the payment of these charges in November 2010.
Additional Freedom (Further Education Colleges)
(14 years ago)
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The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning (Mr John Hayes)
On Wednesday 13 October, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) announced that it has now chosen to reclassify general further education colleges as part of central Government.
This decision results from powers provided in the Further and Higher Education Act 1992. General further education colleges had previously been classified as part of the private sector.
This decision will have implications for the way that colleges are treated for national accounts purposes and therefore may impact on the collection and monitoring of financial information from institutions. However, we do not expect it will have any direct impact on colleges for the remainder of the financial year.
I have already written to the governing bodies of further education colleges reiterating the Government’s commitment to reduce unnecessary administrative burdens on colleges, thereby giving them the freedom to make their own judgments and decisions about how they work with partners, and how best to manage their internal affairs for the benefit of learners, employers and wider communities.
As part of this work the Department for Business Innovation and Skills is exploring options to bring forward legislation that will seek to repeal the requirement on further education colleges to secure the consent of the chief executive of Skills Funding before borrowing money. The Department will also review all the conditions in the financial memorandum between colleges and the Skills Funding Agency as part of the wider assessment of freedoms.
I will continue to keep the House informed as our plans are further developed and refined.
Public Bodies Reform
(14 years ago)
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The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
The coalition Government are committed to review public bodies, with the aim of increasing accountability for actions carried out on behalf of the state. Today I am placing in the Library of the House my proposals for the reform of public bodies, which summarises previous announcements and adds further proposals. Copies will also be available in the Vote Office. In addition, I will make an oral statement to the House today.
The landscape for public bodies needs radical reform to increase transparency and accountability, to cut out duplication of activity, and to discontinue activities which are simply no longer needed.
This public expect Ministers to take responsibility for what the Government do, and not leave this to people or bodies that are unelected. In the past, too many public bodies have been established without proper thought, and allowed to remain when their mission has long been accomplished. This has meant that elected politicians have been able to avoid making difficult and tough decisions. This is a direct challenge to accountability and is contrary to openness and transparency in public services that this Government seek to achieve.
So the Government’s presumption is that state activity, if needed at all, should be undertaken by bodies that are democratically accountable at either national or local level. A body should only exist as a quango if it meets one of three tests, to which my review has subjected all existing public bodies. These tests are:
Does it perform a technical function?
Do its activities require political impartiality?
Does it need to act independently to establish facts?
This is a work in progress. A number of changes have already been announced. A number of bodies remain under consideration, with reviews still under way. All remaining public bodies will be subject to a rigorous triennial review to ensure that the previous pattern of public bodies often outliving the purpose for which they were established is not repeated.
All the changes proposed here will be delivered within Departments’ spending review settlements. Those bodies whose status is being retained may be subject to further reforms following the spending review, in the same way as all other parts of the public sector.
My review process has covered 679 HM Government’s non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs), as well as 222 other statutory bodies such as some non-ministerial Departments and some public corporations. Substantial reforms are proposed for over half of these bodies 481. The Government propose that 192 will cease to be public bodies. Where it is clear that a public body has accomplished its mission and no longer needs to exist, it will be abolished. This will be through moving it within a Government Department, where a Minister will be accountable for its activities, into local government, or into the charity or private sectors, or ceasing their work altogether. Some 118 would be merged down into 57 bodies, removing wasteful and complicating duplication of effort. Some 171 are proposed for substantial reform while retaining their current status.
Many public bodies will be retained and will remain at arm’s length from Government. They will be expected to become more open, accountable and efficient. Non-departmental bodies which are being retained will be subject to a new framework and triennial review process, on which I will bring forward proposals in the new year.
I want to acknowledge the dedication and hard work of those who work in public bodies. We are committed to working with chairs and chief executives of these bodies to ensure that change is conducted as fairly and smoothly as possible.
To enable these proposed changes, the Government will shortly introduce a Public Bodies Bill, which will give Ministers power to make changes to named statutory bodies. Other forthcoming legislation, such as the Education Bill and the Localism Bill will also be used to make changes directly.
I believe that these reforms will increase accountability in public life, while making savings and driving out inefficiency and waste.
“Building a Stronger Civil Society”
(14 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Hurd)
I am today publishing a strategy for voluntary and community groups, charities and social enterprises. The document sets out the scale and nature of the opportunities being made available to civil society organisations as part of the Government’s wider reform agenda, and spells out some of the practical measures that the Government are taking to support this vital sector.
I am also today publishing a Cabinet Office consultation document, asking for views on how infrastructure support for frontline civil society organisations can be improved.
I have placed copies of both documents in the Libraries of both Houses. The documents are also available on the Cabinet Office website at: www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk.
Afghanistan: Training
(14 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Liam Fox)
Over the past few months, the UK and our coalition partners in Afghanistan have carried out a rebalancing of forces within the area of operations covered by Regional Command (South West). In a counter-insurgency campaign, the people are the prize. It is hugely important that we strike the right balance between the numbers of the civilian population and the size of the security forces available to protect them. Over the summer, the UK has transferred security responsibility for Kajaki, Musa Qala and Sangin to our US allies in order to concentrate British forces in the key terrain of central Helmand where they are making steady progress in countering the threat from insurgents and nurturing the conditions necessary for secure and stable development in the region.
As a result of this rebalancing of our forces, we plan to increase by a total of over 320 the number of troops directly involved in the institutional training and development of the Afghan national security forces. This is in line with the coalition’s intent to increase the number of troops directly involved in enhancing the capability of Afghan forces so that the Afghans, in time, can take the lead for security in their country. Of these additional troops, around 170 will be formally accredited on the NATO combined joint statement of requirement, as agreed at the recent NATO force generation conference, while some 150 will take on additional roles that we have identified as a priority in central Helmand. A significant proportion of these troops will be involved in training the Afghan national police.
The uplift in the number of those involved in institutional training and development will not result in a change to the UK’s established and enduring conventional force level of 9,500 personnel.
Learning Disabilities and Mental Health Services
(14 years ago)
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The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul Burstow)
I am today laying before Parliament the 14th report prepared pursuant to section 11 of the Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and Representation) Act 1986 as amended by the Health and Social Care Act 2001. The report sets out the main developments in mental health and learning disabilities services that have taken place since the 13th report in 2003. It also provides the statistical data required under section 11(1)(b) of the Act.
A report under section 11 has not been published since 2003. We have published information about service and policy developments, but this information has not been laid before Parliament. The Department apologises unreservedly to Parliament for this oversight by the previous Government.
“Development of services for people with learning disabilities or mental illness in England—14th report” is in the Library and copies are available to hon. Members from the Vote Office.
Generic Medicines
(14 years ago)
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The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns)
I am today publishing the Government’s response to the consultation on the proposals to implement generic substitution of medicines in primary care. Alongside it a report of the analysis of responses is also published.
The pharmaceutical price regulation scheme 2009 committed to the introduction of generic substitution in primary care in the national health service, subject to discussion with affected parties. Further to discussions with, and views expressed by, stakeholders during 2009, the Department undertook a public consultation on proposals to implement generic substitution in primary care between 5 January and 30 March 2010, consulting on three options, including non-implementation.
In total, 423 organisations and individuals submitted written responses. In addition, 107 delegates attended Department of Health listening events, and their comments were recorded as part of the consultation.
Greenstreet Berman, an independent social research company, was appointed to analyse the responses on behalf of the Department following a competitive tender process run by the Central Office of Information.
The analysis of responses showed no clear consensus with regards to a preferred option going forward. Three key points were apparent:
there was a strongly held perception by respondents that generic substitution posed a threat to patient safety. If the proposals were to be implemented, these concerns would arise in the front-line delivery of NHS services, impacting on the work load of health care professionals;
the position on the cost-effectiveness of generic substitution implementation is inconclusive. There is a strong sense that the effort involved in implementing a formal generic substitution scheme was simply too great for the potential gain; and
other, less nationally prescriptive mechanisms for further supporting the use of generic medicines can be explored.
The coalition Government intend to stand by the 2009 PPRS agreement, which expires at the end of 2013. However, in the light of the public consultation findings, the Department will not be progressing any further the implementation of generic substitution. Instead, the Department will be looking at further ways to support the use of generic medicines in a way that is acceptable to patients, recognising that there are still some savings that can potentially be delivered in this area.
Further details can be found at: http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Consultations/Responsestoconsultations/DH_120431
Copies of both the Government response to the consultation and the analysis of responses report have been placed in the Library and copies are available for hon. Members from the Vote office.
Six Lives: The Provision of Public Services to People with Learning Disabilities
(14 years ago)
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The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul Burstow)
I am pleased to announce that I have today published the Department of Health’s progress report in response to the recommendations of the parliamentary and health service ombudsman and local government ombudsman in their March 2009 report “Six lives: the provision of public services to people with learning disabilities”.
The report provides an assessment of progress made in health and social care services to fulfil the recommendations of “Six Lives” and improve health care and treatment for people with learning disabilities. This follows a series of reports that highlighted failures in adequately meeting the needs of this group of people. The report has been placed in the Library and copies are available to hon. Members in the Vote Office. The report is also available at:
http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_120251
Contaminated Blood
(14 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anne Milton)
On 16 April 2010 judgment was handed down on a judicial review of a decision made by the previous Government not to accept a recommendation made in the report of Lord Archer of Sandwell’s independent inquiry into infections transmitted some decades ago through contaminated blood products. The recommendation in question, 6(h), which concerned payments to those affected by this tragedy, stated that:
“We suggest that payments should be at least the equivalent of those payable under the scheme which applies at any time in [the Republic of] Ireland”.
The judgment found against the Government, therefore I am now required to look again at this recommendation, and decide whether or not to accept it.
Having carefully compared the circumstances pertaining here and in the Republic of Ireland during the period when most of the infections occurred, and having taken account of the fact that this tragedy similarly affected many other countries; I do not consider there is a case for accepting Lord Archer’s recommendation 6(h) that levels of payment here should match those made in Ireland. Every country must make its own decisions on financial support for those affected, taking account of its own particular circumstances, and affordability. The scheme in Ireland was set up on that basis, and has not been replicated in any other country, as far as we know. However, our ex-gratia payment schemes for HIV compare well with those of other countries.
In addition, it is estimated that implementing a similar scheme to Ireland’s here in the UK, would cost in excess of £3 billion.
I recognise that this decision will disappoint those who are living with serious health problems as a result of their infections, as well as their families and the families of those who have already died. During the summer I met representatives of those affected, and heard first hand about the hardships that they have to face on a daily basis.
I believe that to a large extent the recommendations are already in place. The previous Government increased the level of payments to those affected with HIV to a minimum of £12,800 per annum, and has increased the discretionary funding available to their dependents. I do not intend to revisit that decision, but I am persuaded that there are some aspects of Lord Archer’s recommendations that should be looked at afresh. These include:
the level of ex-gratia payments made to those affected by hepatitis C, including financial support for their spouses and dependants, and taking account of the level of payments made to those infected with HIV in the UK and via schemes in other countries;
the mechanisms by which all ex-gratia payments are made;
access to insurance;
prescription charges;
access to nursing and other care services in the community.
I am initiating a review of the issues raised by these recommendations, which will take place in the context of the current financial climate and results of the spending review. Terms of reference have been placed in the Library. I expect to be able to report the outcome of this work and my intentions by the end of 2010. I will be speaking to the other UK Health Ministers to seek their confirmation whether they wish to participate in reviewing the UK-wide aspects within this timescale or whether I will proceed on an England only basis.
Justice and Home Affairs Post-Council Statement
(14 years ago)
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The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green)
The Justice and Home Affairs (JHA) Council was held on 7 and 8 October in Luxembourg. My right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for Justice and I attended on behalf of the United Kingdom. The following issues were discussed at the Council:
The first measure on the roadmap, the right to interpretation and translation in criminal proceedings, was adopted by the Council as an A point. The directive sets minimum standards as regards interpretation and translation in criminal proceedings throughout the European Union. The aim of the proposal is to ensure that, if suspects and defendants do not understand or speak the language used, they are entitled to interpretation from the time they are made aware that they are suspected or accused until the proceedings reach their conclusion, including any appeal. Suspected or accused persons will also be entitled to have some essential documents translated, so they can fully understand the case against them.
The interior session began with the Commission introducing two legal migration proposals: (i) a directive establishing the conditions of entry and residence of third-country nationals entering the EU through an intra-company transfer and (ii) a directive on the conditions of entry and residence of third-country nationals for the purposes of seasonal employment. The directives were intended to respond to labour market needs, boost EU competitiveness and tackle illegal immigration. Neither directive created a right to admission. The presidency stated that negotiations would continue in working groups on both directives to find solutions to member states’ concerns. The UK will decide whether to opt into the proposals by the 15 October.
Following this there was a political discussion on the Common European Asylum System (CEAS) where the presidency reminded member states that the 2012 deadline was approaching. The presidency was committed to moving forward on the Dublin and Eurodac regulations and long-term residents and qualification directives. The UK stated that it did not favour further legislation and preferred a focus on practical co-operation, and confirmed that it was committed to work at a practical level to spread best practice and ensure solidarity. The UK was already involved in capacity-building for asylum decision making in member states, and was prepared to do more. The UK highlighted that the time was right for the Commission to demonstrate strong leadership to co-ordinate these efforts, to ensure an effective delivery mechanism while undertaking more work with countries of origin. The Commission confirmed that the European Asylum Support Office (EASO) would be able to start work in January and that the work programme and the budget were being developed.
During the Interior Ministers lunch, Ministers discussed the recent travel advice issued by the United States. Jane Lute, Assistant Secretary for the Department of Homeland Security, attended. She stated that the recent advice on travel to Europe was issued in order for the US public to be more vigilant. She explained that in the US they increasingly shared information with the public and private sector.
Following Jane Lute’s departure Ministers discussed EU threat alerts. There was a widespread view that member states would be responsible for their own assessments, but there was a broad view that member states should give pre-notification of changes to EU colleagues.
After lunch the Council in Mixed Committee with Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland (non-EU Schengen states) received an update from the Commission that the EU visa information system (VIS) would not be ready in time for the planned go-live date of December 2010. Member states had agreed it would now be rolled out in June 2011. The delay had been caused by problems with the contractor and in member states’ preparations. The UK does not participate in VIS as it builds on an area of the Schengen Acquis in which the UK does not participate.
Next there was a discussion on visa reciprocity in the context of the Canadian decision to reintroduce visas for Czech nationals. The Commission stated that further discussion should wait until after they issued a report on visa reciprocity, due by the end of the year.
The Commission presented a progress report and an updated comprehensive global schedule and budgetary estimate for the second generation of the Schengen Information System (SIS II), during which it reiterated some of the reasons for the delay including the change in specification by the Council. On the issue of increased national costs, the Commission stated that it was still consulting internally on the use of the external border fund.
After Mixed Committee the Council held an orientation debate on the negotiation of passenger name record (PNR) agreements with the US, Canada and Australia. The Commission explained that the PNR package aimed to establish a coherent framework for the exchange of data with third countries and proposed that negotiations with all three countries should start at the same time. The UK supported this approach and welcomed the Commission’s recognition that PNR was a crucial tool in the fight against terrorism and organised crime and was looking forward to seeing the EU PNR directive appear in January 2011. The UK stated that it strongly believed that early publication of an instrument which covered intra-EU flights was vital to the safety and security of EU citizens. The Commission said it would propose the new EU PNR directive early next year.
The Commission presented its Communication on EU Counter-terrorism (CT) policy: main achievements and future challenges, which provided a summary of EU activity since the launch of the EU CT Strategy in 2005. One finding was that the threat from terrorism was still live. The EU had not had a major terrorist attack since 2005, not because no attempt had been made, but because those responsible for our security had done a very good job.
The Commission also presented its communication on information management and stated the purpose of the exercise was to provide overview of the various important information systems which existed, such as the terrorist finance tracking programme and the data retention directive.
During AOB, the Commission provided details of the Memorandum of Understanding signed with Libya and there was a discussion on the framework agreement with that country. The UK underlined the importance of consulting and involving member states in this kind of initiative.
The justice session began with a debate about the criminal law articles (articles 1-13, except article 10) in the draft directive on combating sexual abuse and exploitation of children and child pornography. This directive seeks to ensure that criminal activities to sexually exploit children, including misuse of the internet, are more fully covered than in the existing framework decision (2004). The UK maintained its parliamentary scrutiny reserve on the text but gave its general support for the proposal. The Commission noted that the European Parliament had not yet indicated its position, so it would defend its proposal but would engage constructively in negotiations. The presidency confirmed that negotiations on the remaining articles would continue with a view to agreeing a general approach on the entire text at the December JHA Council.
The Commission then gave a presentation on the draft directive on the right to information in criminal proceedings. This proposal is the second measure in the roadmap to strengthen procedural rights in criminal proceedings. It aims to set common minimum standards and improve the rights of suspects and accused persons by ensuring that they receive information about their rights. The UK supported the concept of a letter of rights and agreed that it was essential for suspects and defendants to be made aware of their rights. The UK has yet to confirm whether it will be opting into this draft directive.
Next, the presidency provided an update on progress in the European Parliament on the European Protection Order, a measure designed to protect victims moving from one member state to another. The European Parliament had an orientation vote in committee which indicated support for a broad scope covering civil as well as criminal measures. It would seek to make progress in the Council on this complex proposal.
The presidency then provided an information point on negotiations on the proposed regulation implementing enhanced co-operation in the field of law applicable to divorce—Rome III. The UK is not participating in this measure and noted the update.
During lunch. Ministers held an exchange of views about the judicial dimension of the fight against terrorism. The Commission stressed the importance of devoting sufficient funding to measures to combat terrorism.
Returns to Zimbabwe
(14 years ago)
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The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green)
I am announcing today our intention to end the current suspension of enforced returns of failed asylum seekers to Zimbabwe. There are some Zimbabweans who continue to have a well-founded fear of persecution; we continue to grant protection to those people. As with any other nationality, every case is considered on its individual merits and against the background of the latest available country information from a wide range of reliable sources including international organisations, non-governmental organisations and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
The courts have found that not all Zimbabweans are in need of international protection and given the improved situation on the ground in Zimbabwe since the formation of the inclusive Government in 2009, the time is now right to bring our policy on returns of failed Zimbabwean asylum seekers into line with that on every other country. This will mean that failed asylum seekers from Zimbabwe will from now on be treated in exactly the same way as failed asylum seekers of all other countries when it comes to enforcing returns.
Those found not to be in need of protection have always been expected to return home. We prefer these individuals to return voluntarily and many hundreds have done so. It is in everyone’s interest for people to return to Zimbabwe and use their skills to support themselves and help rebuild the country. The Government support this process and are in active dialogue with Zimbabweans to explore how this process can be further assisted.
It remains open to Zimbabweans to return home voluntarily under one of the assisted voluntary return (AVR) programmes which are available for individuals of all nationalities. There are three programmes available under which all returnees receive support in acquiring travel documentation, flight costs to their country of origin and onward domestic transport, airport assistance at departure and arrival airports and, for those eligible, up to £1,500 worth of reintegration assistance per person including a £500 relocation grant on departure for immediate resettlement needs and, once home, a range of reintegration options which are delivered “in kind”.
The Immigration and Asylum Chamber of the Unified Tribunal Service (IAC) will be hearing in the near future a further country guidance case on general safety of return to Zimbabwe which we expect to reflect the improvements in Zimbabwe since the previous country guidance case was decided in 2008. Therefore, although there is no reason why Zimbabweans who both we, and the courts, have found not to be in need of protection should not now be removed, we will not enforce the first returns until the IAC has delivered its determination. Those who have no right to remain in the UK, and who chose not to return voluntarily, will then face enforced return, in exactly the same way as failed asylum seekers of all other countries.
This change in asylum policy which I have announced today does not reflect any change in our categorical opposition to human rights abuses in Zimbabwe. We will continue to call, both bilaterally and with our international partners, for an end to all such abuses and the restoration of internationally accepted human rights standards in Zimbabwe.
Schengen Agreement (Correction to Written Answer)
(14 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)
I regret to inform that House that there were inaccuracies in an answer to parliamentary questions 15306, 15307, 15308, 15309, 15310 and 15391 (linked) on 15 September 2010, Official Report, columns 1077-78W.
The response contained inaccurate statistics and referred to measures which are not the responsibility of the Home Office and which are therefore outside the scope of the question.
I can confirm that the answer should have read as follows:
“The tables placed in the Libraries of both Houses set out measures for which the Home Secretary is responsible which have been presented to the Council pursuant to title IV of the treaty establishing the European Community (“TEC pre-Lisbon measures”) and title V of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union (“TFEU post-Lisbon measures” from 1 December 2009) attracting the UK opt-in.
They also set out measures presented following the entry into force of the Lisbon treaty pursuant to those elements of the Schengen acquis in which the UK participates (the police and criminal justice elements) and, pre-Lisbon those measures building on Schengen from which the UK was excluded.
The Lisbon treaty introduced a right for the UK to opt out of Schengen building measures where we were automatically bound prior to its entry into force.
There is one “mixed” measure currently under negotiation which includes provisions which build on those elements of the Schengen acquis to which we are bound: a Council regulation to establish an agency for the purposes of managing existing IT systems in the area of Justice and Home Affairs. The deadline by which the UK had to notify its decision to opt out of that measure was 21 June 2010; the UK made no such notification. The regulation also includes ex-title IV TEC (now title V TFEU) provisions to which the UK opted in on 23 September 2009.
Following the entry into force of the Lisbon treaty, excluding the IT agency, there have been 14 measures for which the Home Office has responsibility to which the title V TFEU opt-in has applied. The UK has opted in to nine and out of three, and is considering a further two published proposals where the Government will take a decision within three months. There have been three measures to which the Schengen opt-out applied (excluding the IT agency). The UK is participating in all three.
Additional information on the dates when all these measures were presented, when the UK signalled its acceptance at the Council, when they were adopted and entered into force are not held centrally and could only be obtained at disproportionate cost. However, all decisions to opt-in to or out of JHA measures are notified to Parliament at the time they are made. The first annual report will be presented to Parliament in December providing retrospective information on the UK’s application of the opt-in protocol from 1 December 2009 to 1 December 2010, a year since the Lisbon treaty came into force”.
Table 1 and table 2 referred to in the corrected answer will be placed in the House Libraries.
Her Majesty's Courts Service
(14 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Jonathan Djanogly)
In March 2010 a list of key performance indicators was published for Her Majesty’s Courts Service for 2010-11. One of these indicators was “to maintain the “very satisfied” element of the HMCS court user satisfaction survey at or above the 2007-08 baseline of 41%”. The data to measure this indicator are usually captured using an independent survey of court users.
In April 2011 HMCS and the Tribunals Service will come together to form a new integrated agency. Commissioning new surveys for 2010-11 would not represent good value for money as the results would be of limited value and would not be available until after the creation of the new agency. I have, therefore, decided that the survey used to report against this performance indicator should not go ahead.
HMCS remains committed to providing good customer service to all court users across England and Wales. User satisfaction remains strong with 82% of court users satisfied overall, with 40% of those being “very satisfied”. The new integrated courts and tribunals service will continue to deliver improvements in the services provided for courts and tribunal users.
Updating the Coroner System
(14 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Jonathan Djanogly)
I wish to make a statement to announce plans for changes to the coroner system in England and Wales.
We believe the proposals I am putting forward today will bring improvements to the system, and address current inconsistencies and inefficiencies in the delivery of services to bereaved families.
We need to create minimum national standards and issue improved guidance on important procedures such as the commissioning of post-mortem examinations, while supporting the local management and delivery of the service.
To that end, we plan to bring forward some of the measures from part 1 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009.
Our aims are to:
Improve the coroner system so that inquests are timely and bereaved people are provided with sufficient information and support throughout the process.
Improve the effectiveness of inquests, so cases are conducted in the most appropriate district, information is better shared between coroners and other agencies and investigations are better informed by medical advice.
Support local service management and delivery to ensure coroners and their officers have the skills to carry out their jobs and best practice is shared between coroner districts and between the local authorities which fund them.
We will achieve this by:
Commencing provisions enabling operational problems facing coroners to be addressed.
Reviewing and updating the coroners rules.
Issuing and monitoring best practice guidance, including a national charter for bereaved families.
Maintaining and improving training for coroners and their officers.
Encouraging the further establishment of support services provided by the voluntary sector to those attending inquests.
We will make it simpler for coroners to transfer cases between each other, for the convenience of bereaved families and to reduce delays. We will also make it possible for post-mortem and related examinations to take place at the most appropriate specialist centre, by removing the geographical restrictions of the Coroners Act 1988.
We aim to commence these measures in line with the original deadline of April 2012. Some may be brought in earlier than that.
We will continue to work across Government to identify whether and how we can implement other measures in the 2009 Act. We will continue to work closely with Health Ministers to implement proposed new death certification measures so causes of death are recorded more accurately, public health measures are improved, and any improper practices by doctors are detected. In doing so, we will take account of the responses to the consultation paper “Reform of the Coroner System Next Stage: Preparing for Implementation”. I have today published the Government’s response to that paper, and have placed a copy in the Libraries of both Houses.
However, after careful consideration, we have decided that in the current economic climate we cannot go ahead with plans to implement national leadership from a Chief Coroner, an appeals system, or a medical adviser. We have proposed that the abolition of the office of the Chief Coroner should be included in the Public Bodies Bill, which was announced earlier today and we are further considering the transfer of some of the Chief Coroner’s functions to suitable alternative bodies.
His Honour Judge Peter Thornton QC, a Senior Circuit Judge at the Central Criminal Court (Old Bailey), was appointed by the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Judge, to the post of Chief Coroner under section 35 and schedule 8 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 after those provisions came into force on 1 February 2010 but had not yet taken up his duties. In the light of our intention to abolish the post he will now not do so but I wish to express my gratitude to Judge Thornton for his considerable patience, and advice to the Department, during the period of this policy review.
We will continue to work collaboratively with coroners, local government and police authorities to deliver service improvements. We will also explore with voluntary sector organisations how we can work together better, so as to provide further support for people when they suffer a sudden or unexpected bereavement.
We believe that our proposals will deliver an improved and more flexible service to bereaved families and also to coroners, their staff and others who work within or have an interest in the coronial system. I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to their dedication and hard work and to recognise the enormous value of the service they provide.
EU Transport Council - 15 October 2010
(14 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond)
The first Transport Council of the Belgian presidency will take place in Luxembourg on 15 October.
The Council will be asked to reach a political agreement on the directive amending Directive 1999/62 on charging of heavy goods vehicles (the Eurovignette directive). The directive governs the taxation of lorries, including rules for the charging of access to road infrastructure where member states choose to do this. The proposed amendments include the removal of references to mandatory hypothecation of revenues and proposals to allow charges to be set flexibly within the overall cap to reflect externalities in areas and at times when there is congestion. We strongly support the former and believe the latter represents an acceptable approach to dealing with congestion. The amendments will also include proposals to allow member states discretion not to include goods vehicles weighing less than 12 tonnes in charging schemes—reflecting the fact that few such vehicles are involved in international traffic—and some limitation of the Commission’s powers to propose amendments to minimum and maximum rates using delegated acts. In particular the Commission’s power to increase the minimum rates of lorry circulation taxes, such as goods vehicle VED, has been removed. We support both of these proposals
We remain concerned that this directive, which impacts on national charging regimes and hence on tax, rests on a transport legal base and will continue to press our position that these issues should be agreed by unanimity. We will also continue to press the case for increasing maximum daily rates for time-based charging.
There will be an exchange of views on strategy and the future of transport 2010-2020. This will give Ministers an opportunity to set out their position on issues expected to be covered in the European Commission’s forthcoming White Paper on transport policy, prior to the more detailed analysis which will follow publication. I will reiterate the UK’s commitment to climate change mitigation measures in transport and to better regulation across the board.
The Council will be asked to adopt a mandate authorising the Commission to open negotiations with Brazil on a comprehensive air transport agreement. The Government support the opening of negotiations on such an agreement.
Under AOB the Commission will present their recent legislative proposal to recast the first rail package. There will be no substantive discussion.
Among items for adoption without debate (“A points”) the Council is expected to adopt conclusions on applications of the European global navigation satellite systems.
The Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council
(14 years ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)
The Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council will be held on 21 October 2010 in Luxembourg. Andy Lebrecht, UK deputy permanent representative to the EU, will represent the United Kingdom.
The main item on the agenda will be Europe 2020, including two separate discussions on the employment and social dimensions. On employment governance, Council will adopt conclusions and hold an orientation debate. The UK will stress that what the December Council finally endorses for assessment and monitoring must adhere to the relevant treaty basis. On social protection, Council will adopt the Social Protection Committee opinion and hold another orientation debate, in which the UK will stress the need to respect subsidiarity and focus on the outcomes of poverty reduction through exchange of experience, rather than the Commission monitoring the situation in member states.
The Commission will provide information on the employment aspects of its flagship initiative, Youth on the Move. The UK welcomes the focus on supporting young people’s access to the job market through better education, training and mobility.
The Council will adopt the employment guidelines which were politically endorsed by the June European Council (JEC) before the European Parliament (EP) consultation required by the treaty ended. In response to the EP report, the presidency only proposed amendments to the recitals so the JEC agreement stands. Council will also adopt the Employment Committee opinion on active and positive transitions. The opinion is about making work pay and has focused on a life-cycle approach covering movement either from unemployment to employment or between jobs, giving more attention than previously to activation, skills and flexible working.
The Belgian presidency will provide information on the preparation for the Tripartite Social Summit, which will discuss how to encourage more jobs as we come out of the recession.
Under any other business, there will be information from the Commission on the Green Paper on pensions and the presidency will provide an update on the work being done at European level to promote the inclusion of the Roma. There will also be information on various conferences including the round table on poverty and the conference on child poverty and child wellbeing.
House of Lords
Audit Commission
Lord Harrison
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how the functions of the Audit Commission will be replaced following its abolition.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)
My Lords, subject to Parliament enacting the necessary legislation, local audits will be regulated within a statutory framework overseen by the National Audit Office and the audit profession. Councils will appoint their own independent external auditors and there will be new audit arrangements for local health bodies. The commission’s in-house audit practice will be moved to the private sector and other functions of the commission will cease or become the responsibility of auditors or other existing bodies.
Lord Harrison
Why, without consultation and at a time of financial retrenchment, do the Government abolish the established Audit Commission, whose value is demonstrated by its extracting value for money when public money is spent on the National Health Service and in the local authority sector? Does the Minister agree with the ACCA and with CIPFA that what will happen if we give this to private audit firms is that there will be many more conflicts of interest; that often they will have no appetite to take up the work; and worst of all, that the independent voice of the Audit Commission, which was able to criticise government, will be lost? Has not the pretty Mr Pickles got the Government into yet another pretty pickle?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, in the current financial climate, it makes absolutely no sense for Whitehall to own the fifth largest audit practice in Britain, particularly when it provides services that can readily be obtained in the private sector. The commission’s monopoly on appointing local auditors weakens competition and also weakens the localism that should be available to local government. Certainly in my time in local government, one of the things that irritated me most was the fact that you could not choose your own auditors. Now there will be much better and more open ways of doing that.
Lord Christopher
My Lords, I declare a past interest in that I have been a member of the Audit Commission. The noble Baroness has said exactly the opposite of what the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, said when she was Prime Minister in 1981 and set up the Audit Commission in 1982. I quote Mr Pickles when he said:
“I'm not interested in research and evidence—I'm here to take decisions”.
We know the basis on which this decision has been taken. If the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, was wrong, how, according to what the Minister has described, do the Government aim to take forward the then three aims of the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher—namely, to raise and maintain the quality of audit, to increase cost-effectiveness, and, above all perhaps, to get value for money? How will each of those aims be advanced?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, 1981 was quite a long time ago, just in case that has not been appreciated. Also, since then, the Audit Commission has assumed far greater roles than my noble friend Lady Thatcher ever envisaged it doing. It is now our view that it is time to put audit into the hands of local authorities so that they can demonstrate for themselves that they can choose auditors. Some inspection powers will still be in the hands of Ofsted and the Care Quality Commission to ensure that there is value for money and propriety in those services. Local authorities will have to take a very keen interest in how their services are run, the value they get for the money they pay, and the standards that they achieve.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, it is good to know that this coalition Government are not very Thatcherite. There was rejoicing among local authorities throughout the land when Eric Pickles announced that the Audit Commission was being abolished. The succession of top-down schemes, from best value to the comprehensive performance assessment and the comprehensive area assessment and so on, have wasted vast amounts of time and money in local authorities. Although it will take time to close down the commission, will the Minister confirm that new Labour attempts to micromanage anything on the ground that moves have come to an end and that local authorities can now use their resources to get on and do the jobs that they were elected to do?
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, the Minister has talked about value for money. Please will she tell the House what impact assessment has been undertaken of the proposals to abolish the Audit Commission and whether she will publish it? In particular, will she say what are the estimated winding-up costs and how long it will be before any savings are anticipated?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, clearly there will be savings. At the moment, the estimate is about £50 million, but I expect that may vary either up or down. The Audit Commission has appointed Gareth Davies to see how the commission is taken into the private sector, which is an excellent move forward. I look forward to seeing how that goes and the Audit Commission’s proposals for the future.
Lord Tebbit
My Lords, without regard to the merit of this particular decision, does my noble friend agree that we should look rather closely at the record of the major accountancy and audit firms in this country? After all not one of them detected anything wrong with any of the bank accounts which they audited.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, nor did the previous Government. They missed that, as well as the audit companies. The private sector can only be strengthened by having another major audit company within it and the Audit Commission will, I hope, become that. There will then be a wider market for local authorities to delve into for audit.
Lord Barnett
My Lords, given the various new bodies that will carry out the functions previously done by the Audit Commission, can the Minister say whether, before abolishing the commission, any estimate will be made about the increased or reduced cost and how that will help to do the job of auditing?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, clearly there is more work to be done. The announcement has been made quickly so that there is no hold up or detriment to the Audit Commission. As I have said, at the moment the calculated savings are £50 million, so presumably that will also include other work to be done.
Pakistan: Child Welfare
(14 years ago)
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Baroness Massey of Darwen
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how their development policies support child welfare in Pakistan.
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, for all the hard work she does in ensuring that the welfare of children across the world is raised continuously. The UK Government’s development programme promotes child welfare in Pakistan in several ways. Our support in education will help 5 million more children to attend primary school by 2013. Our support to the national health facility has helped to save 200,000 children’s lives, stopped 800,000 children from becoming malnourished and prevented 15,000 mothers from dying. Our humanitarian support after the recent flooding has provided more than half a million malnourished children with food supplements.
Baroness Massey of Darwen
I thank the noble Baroness for her kind words and for her response. In doing so, I declare an interest as a trustee of UNICEF UK. How are those efforts by so many organisations in Pakistan being co-ordinated with respect to children’s welfare?
Baroness Verma
My Lords, the UN is responsible for co-ordinating the international humanitarian response. All of DfID’s humanitarian aid is directed through UN agencies or established NGOs, in line with standard humanitarian practice. Each key area—health, water, sanitation, shelter and food—has a separate cluster, with members including the Government of Pakistan, various UN agencies, NGOs, DfID and other donors. Members, including officials from the Department for International Development, meet regularly to share information within and across clusters to ensure a co-ordinated and efficient response. The Secretary of State said in his ministerial Statement on 12 October that the “scale and shifting patterns” of the crisis make it a challenging situation.
Lord Chidgey
My Lords, although I thank my noble friend for that response, is she aware that in the 12 months before the flooding in Pakistan, the infant mortality rate rose for the first time for seven years, by 7 per cent? Are the Government’s plans for child welfare aimed at reversing that trend, which is obviously alarming, as well as coping with the additional challenges caused by the recent flooding?
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that important question. DfID is supporting female health workers in Pakistan. We have supported health workers through the national health facility, providing nutritional advice and distributing supplements to pregnant women, adolescent girls and children. At the UN summit, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Secretary of State made a further commitment to ensuring that the lives of 50,000 more women are helped to be saved by providing additional nutrients and nourishing meals, as well as making sure that facilities are in place in the health service.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, can the Minister give this House an assurance that no money in the budget of the Department for International Development for Pakistan or any other country will be used in future for purposes currently funded by the defence department?
Baroness Verma
My Lords, all of DfID’s funds are in line with the strict guidelines of the OECD.
Lord Elton
My Lords, is the funding of which my noble friend speaks delivered to the eventual beneficiary by agencies of the Government of Pakistan, by voluntary agencies or by other means—and, if so, what means?
Baroness Verma
I thank my noble friend for that question. All humanitarian aid is given through NGOs, but DfID government programmes go through a number of organisations, and some go through the Pakistan Government.
Lord Brett
My Lords, in pursuance of the previous question, while appreciating the efforts that have been made internationally, UNICEF and a number of NGOs have been very critical about the efficiency and speed with which aid is getting through to those most in need. Given the Government’s previous assurances, how in their present endeavours are they ensuring that that is improved in the coming months, particularly in the light of the flooding disaster?
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I am sure that the House agrees that it has been a disaster on a huge scale. We are looking to ensure that our response is in line with that of other agencies. It is a really big disaster. All that I can say to reassure the noble Lord is that we will play our part at the forefront; we in DfID will do our very best to help all other agencies.
Viscount Slim
My Lords, there is some good news in Pakistan. I declare an interest in that I am heavily connected to 17 eye hospitals throughout Pakistan. At this stage, we have probably restored sight, given succour and repaired the eyes of 2 million Pakistanis, and a large percentage of them are children. The problem is the lack of hygiene in the villages. The dirt affects the eyes. In this instance, the money is getting to the right people, and the Pakistani surgeons are of the highest quality.
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Viscount on all the hard work he does. We recognise that a lot of good work is being done, but the department is reviewing its bilateral and multilateral aid to make sure that where our aid is being used, it is being used to the best possible advantage.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is important that women are not only the recipients of aid but are also drawn as far as possible into the political processes? Does she look, for instance, to the example of the work of CARE International? Will she use her department’s influence and example as far as possible to ensure that women are fully drawn into any discussions in this area?
Baroness Verma
I thank the noble Earl. As he is aware, we have put women and the empowerment of women at the heart of our priorities. We will work very closely with other departments and nations to ensure that women are at the forefront of decision-making whether in the political process or at civic level, which is also key to ensuring the empowerment of women and girls.
Israel: Illegal Settlers
(14 years ago)
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Lord Wright of Richmond
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the Government of Israel’s continued refusal to remove illegal settlers from the West Bank and East Jerusalem; and what action the European Union is taking to help resolve this problem.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, all settlement activity in the Occupied Palestinian Territories is illegal and represents an obstacle to peace. We have consistently pressed Israel to renew its settlement moratorium and are very disappointed that it has not yet done so. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary delivered this message to Israeli Foreign Minister Lieberman on 27 September and reiterated it on 6 October. The European Council also set this out in its statement on 16 September.
Lord Wright of Richmond
I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Is he aware that as of June this year up to 200 housing units were under construction that started construction while the so-called moratorium was in place? They add to the 2,000 building units that started before the moratorium and continued right through it to this day. Does the Minister recall that in 1982, after the Israelis invaded Lebanon, the Conservative Administration, of which he was a member, imposed a ban on all British arms to Israel until the invasion was reversed? Will he consider with our European partners a similar ban on an EU-wide basis until a genuine moratorium is put in place and the Israeli Government start to remove illegal settlers from the West Bank and East Jerusalem?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I totally share the noble Lord’s correct frustration and dismay that the building activity has gone on even during the moratorium and is probably continuing at this moment in a highly provocative way. We regard that as illegal.
As to embargoes and export restrictions, we take the view that the total isolation of Israel would be a backward, not forward, step in this painful process. We fully agree that pressure must be mobilised. As far as an arms embargo is concerned, we have very tight, rigorous and effective consolidated EU and national export licensing criteria, which we employ. These work very effectively. As the noble Lord indicated, any further ban on development would have to be not merely EU-wide but virtually worldwide. We think that the isolation route is not the right one except, of course, for the crucial issues that I mentioned that are under very tight licensing control.
Lord Janner of Braunstone
Does the noble Lord accept that Israel is the only democracy in that area and, like our own, it does not always elect a Government with whom we agree? Some of us do not agree with our present Government in some matters and that is certainly the view of those on this side of the House. Does the noble Lord agree that the EU should keep working with the quartet and the US to encourage the Israelis and the Palestinians to make peace through negotiations and that reprimanding either side is counterproductive to producing the result which we all would like to see?
Lord Howell of Guildford
On the general proposition, obviously, yes, we desperately want to see peace between Israel and Palestine and we want to see the negotiations resumed and continued. But where we are asked to use our good offices and where we want to bring influence to bear, it seems perfectly reasonable to point out in what the noble Lord calls a reprimand that certain actions taken by either side may be going the wrong way. One thing that is going the wrong way is provocative settlements continuing in occupied territories, which must be setting these negotiations back. That is a reasonable proposition to put forward even to those who recognise fully the needs and the right of Israel to secure its proper security.
The Lord Bishop of Chester
My Lords, at what point does the extent of the settlement activity, particularly in the West Bank, render the two-state solution an impractical aim?
Lord Howell of Guildford
Behind the right reverend Prelate’s question is a fear which I and many share. There could come a point when there is so much building and intrusion that it cannot even be contemplated as part of the swap of lands or anything else in a final negotiation. This reinforces our determination to bring to bear on the Israelis the necessity of continuing the moratorium on new building and to realise that in the eventual negotiation settlement this matter has got to be reasonably settled so that there can be a viable Palestinian state.
Baroness Miller of Hendon
Does any assessment made by the Government take into account the fact that these settlements provide a haven from which Hezbollah and Hamas cannot continually throw bombs and things across into Israel, as has happened since Israel gave up control in Gaza?
Lord Howell of Guildford
There are security dangers in all these developments. Obviously, attacks on Israel from Hezbollah and from rocketing from Hamas in Gaza are matters that make it more difficult for the negotiations to go ahead. These two are deplorable developments and they must cease if we are to make progress.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, if both noble Lords are quick, I am sure that my noble friend will be able to give an answer—first, the noble Lord, Lord Lea, and then the noble Lord, Lord Pannick.
Lord Lea of Crondall
Does the Minister agree with the point being put to our friends in the Israeli Government that public opinion in this country and much of western Europe is influenced by the fact that there were two sides to the Balfour declaration? One is creating a homeland for the Jewish people and the other is observing the rights of the Palestinian people.
Lord Howell of Guildford
My noble friend is urging short answers, so the answer is yes, of course there are two sides.
Lord Pannick
My Lords, does the Minister agree that a more fundamental obstacle to a peace settlement than the settlements in the West Bank, which occupy some 5 per cent or so of that territory, is the failure of Arab states to introduce into their own countries the rule of law and the right to freedom of expression which would promote a real debate in those countries about the true interests of the unfortunate Palestinian people?
Lord Howell of Guildford
The noble Lord is of course right that the issue of settlements is difficult. It is not the only issue and there are many broader considerations on which he has quite correctly touched.
Government Efficiency: Sir Philip Greens’ Report
Lord Eatwell
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to Sir Philip Green’s report on government efficiency, published on 11 October.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, as Mr Francis Maude, the Minister for the Cabinet Office, said on Monday, Sir Philip Green’s findings clearly demonstrate the scale of inefficiency and waste present in the system today. It is clear that there is a huge opportunity and a real willingness on behalf of civil servants to take on the important task of delivering efficiency. We welcome the sense of urgency that Sir Philip has brought to this work and are looking at how we can best take forward key recommendations.
Lord Eatwell
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Is he aware that we on these Benches welcome many of the conclusions in Sir Philip Green’s report? It is the latest in a long line of similar initiatives, such as those in the report of Sir Derek Rayner in the 1980s which uncovered gross inefficiencies in the Government of the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, and in the work of Sir Peter Gershon for the Labour Government, saving many billions more than the Green report identifies. However, we find the key conclusion, emblazoned on the cover of the report, that,
“The Government is failing to leverage both its credit rating and its scale”,
very disturbing. Translated into everyday language, that amounts to a recommendation that the Government abuse their market power to worsen payment terms and force down supplier prices. Will the noble Lord join me in supporting good practice in business and reject Sir Philip Green’s invitation to the Government to abuse their market power?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his exposition of the Opposition’s position on this matter, but to answer his question, it is true that the Government have failed to leverage their position. Perhaps I may give an example that in fact stems from the previous Government, energy, which is a very good example of what can be achieved by using leverage. The purchase of 75 per cent of electricity and gas requirements has been centralised in an expert team, resulting in cumulative savings of £500 million. That is a substantial sum and something worth achieving.
Lord Martin of Springburn
My Lords, I do not doubt that the senior officers of both Houses will be looking at efficiencies for this great historic building of ours. Can I ask for assurance that, in doing so, we never reduce the standard of security? I ask this not for selfish reasons, but because we have a dedicated staff of thousands of people here, as well as thousands of visitors. We owe it to them to make sure that security is not loosened in any way because of so-called efficiencies.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I think I can reassure the noble Lord on that point because I have read Sir Philip’s recommendations, and there is no recommendation on security matters. However, I am sure that the appropriate committee of this House and the other place will make any necessary judgments on these matters.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
My Lords, do the Government recognise that this headline-catching report is one in a succession of reports following that of Sir Peter Gershon? Some of its recommendations for centralised procurement seem to run counter to the Government’s own intentions about the localisation of accountability and to the fact that the greatest savings can be made not in centralised government spending but in respect of spending by the health service, the education sector and other decentralised public bodies? Does he agree that the Government should not rush to judgment in proposing to institute a major, overall purchasing authority, but should consult widely before they do so?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, inevitably, the Government will strike a balance on these matters. They see decision-making as essentially a local issue, but there are opportunities in the centralised negotiation of price.
Lord Sugar
My Lords, using his own words, Sir Philip says that his findings are nothing more than “common sense”, and I absolutely agree with him. He has produced a very good report in the short period of time he had to do it in. But does not the noble Lord agree that it is time to centralise buying and to bring in some kind of head honcho from the private sector who knows what they are doing and pay them the right amount of money, which they would be paid in a large organisation? If you do that, you will end up paying someone a rather exorbitant amount of money that is many multiples of what the Prime Minister earns. However, Sir Philip did admit, in another of his famous statements in the report, that if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. [Laughter.]
A noble Lord: You’re fired!
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I think the noble Lord is seeking from me the phrase “You’re hired”, but I fear that is not within my gift. The Government intend to take these proposals forward and the Efficiency and Reform Group is dealing with these matters. There are opportunities: for example, the telephone bill across government is £2 billion. At that level it will be worth the Government buying their own capacity within the telephone service. I am sure that that is the kind of decision the Government will pursue.
Arrangement of Business
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, later today, after the debate in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen, my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach will repeat a Statement entitled “Public Bodies Reform”.
Superannuation Bill
Business of the House
(14 years ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That the debate on the Motion in the name of Baroness Massey of Darwen set down for today shall be limited to two hours and that in the name of Baroness Wall of New Barnet to three hours.
Human Trafficking
Baroness Massey of Darwen
To call attention to the case for government strategies to tackle human trafficking; and to move for papers.
Baroness Massey of Darwen
My Lords, I am very pleased to have secured this debate today. The 18th of this month is Anti-slavery Day and human trafficking has been described as a modern form of slavery. Indeed, it has many of the features of slavery. Slavery is about power over individuals; it is about degradation and the removal of rights and dignity; it is about loss of personality and self-worth; it also often carries financial gain. All of this applies to the terrible practice of human trafficking.
I thank noble Lords—not only those in the Chamber today—for the support that they have given on this topic. There have been debates across the House and in another place on trafficking and we should today hope to build on those debates. The noble Baroness, Lady Verma, recently held a useful meeting with representatives of organisations concerned with child trafficking; I am grateful to her for that and for her commitment in this area. I have received more briefings for this debate than I have ever received before. This shows the degree of concern about human trafficking and a commitment to improve systems to deal with this abuse. Many organisations—too many to mention, although I shall draw on their experiences—are doing a remarkable job in their advocacy for and support of trafficked people.
I declare an interest as a trustee of UNICEF and a patron of the University of Bedfordshire unit on trafficking. All the organisations, often working together, are totally dedicated, but they need recognition and support. I hope that the Minister will be able to offer that recognition and support today.
I shall begin by offering a few statistics on trafficking and I shall then focus on child trafficking in the UK, surely one of the most abusive and wicked of practices. I shall mention the proposed European directive; I know that many noble Lords are interested in this. I am also aware that noble Lords have a variety of issues that they want to raise and that there is great expertise around the Chamber. I am sorry that the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, cannot be present today. She has particular concern and knowledge about the trafficking of children in London, highlighted in a recent Evening Standard report.
Here are a few statistics. Estimating the number of people trafficked is difficult due to the hidden nature of trafficking. It has been estimated that, globally, the number is 12.3 million, with prosecutions numbering barely more than 4,000 in 2009. In the UK, it is estimated that there are more than 5,000 victims of trafficking and between 100,000 and 800,000 victims in Europe. These were the findings of the House of Commons Home Affairs Select Committee in 2008-09. As we can see, the estimated numbers are diverse and unreliable. It has been estimated that the total economic and social cost of human trafficking for sexual exploitation in the UK was as much as £l billion in 2003. We are talking about huge sums of money, second only to arms dealing. We are talking also about great human suffering and misery, particularly for women and children.
As I said, I shall focus mainly on the trafficking of children in the UK. This includes for sexual exploitation, including pornography, and for domestic or other employment purposes. These children are sometimes prosecuted through no fault of their own.
I shall cite a couple of real-life situations that illustrate some of my concerns. In Doncaster, a 15 year-old Vietnamese boy was recently jailed for a year after pleading guilty to helping farm £85,000-worth of cannabis. He was found on the stairs of a house during a police raid. He had been trafficked via France with the promise of a job in a nail factory. He had been working since he was 12. His family wanted him to have a better life in Europe. He had been beaten and threatened. He had realised that he was involved in criminal activity only nine days before his arrest. The magistrates were obliged to give him a custodial sentence of 12 months. The sentence would normally have been three years but was mitigated due to his age and good conduct. The new European directive on human trafficking, which I shall discuss later, contains provisions on the prosecution of victims.
Another example is a girl of 13 who arrived in the UK from Africa. She was used as an unpaid domestic worker by a couple who knew her family. She was assaulted by the couple on numerous occasions. A member of the public noticed her unusual behaviour and clothing and spoke to her, but the child’s story was not believed. She finally turned up at the offices of the local social services department for help. The investigation took a long time, but she was eventually taken into local authority care, with a designated social worker. She then found herself able to disclose the physical and sexual abuse that she had been subjected to. The couple who trafficked her have been prosecuted after a two-and-a-half-year investigation.
The report from the NSPCC and the University of Bedfordshire, Breaking the Wall of Silence, gives many such examples. I have met young people who have been trafficked and suffered abuse and who have had their passports—where there was a passport—taken from them. They have been prisoners, not allowed contact with the outside world. These young people often have no English and little education. There has been little support, except in enlightened cases, and inadequate accommodation.
There are provisions to tackle child trafficking in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. In 2008, the UK lifted its reservation on Article 22, thus entitling asylum-seeking children the same protection and access to services as other children. The Council of Europe convention of 2008 was the first international treaty to oblige states to adopt minimum standards to assist trafficked persons and protect their rights. Supplementary guidance has been issued to local authorities in England to promote early identification and partnership approaches to the protection of trafficked children. Guidance for safeguarding children at risk from sexual exploitation was revised and published in 2009. The Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009 places a duty on the UK Border Agency to make arrangements to safeguard and promote the welfare of children.
Much has been done. There is awareness of the need to protect vulnerable children, but problems remain. Early identification is difficult. Prevention measures are difficult. There are legal entanglements. There is a need for advocacy and key workers. There is a need for visionary co-ordination of services at a local level.
Barnardo’s, which runs 22 services for children and young people at risk of sexual exploitation, found in its research that identification of child victims of trafficking is still very low. Authorities do not seem to have developed adequate procedures and guidelines to improve detection. Barnardo’s found a general lack of awareness of child trafficking and its indicators among practitioners. It recommends more specialist services for such young people and the provision of a safe and trusted environment where they could disclose abuse and be helped. That would include safe accommodation.
ECPAT, an umbrella organisation on trafficking, is running, with the Body Shop, a campaign to promote effective guardianship of trafficked children. It has identified gaps in independent monitoring, inadequate legal advice and representation, and a lack of people to co-ordinate the agencies working with children and understand the wishes and needs of children. The agency Stop the Traffik has launched many campaigns, one in conjunction with Cadbury, Nestlé and Mars, to improve education about trafficking and local initiatives such as work with the police.
Initiatives are happening. However, the Anti-Trafficking Monitoring Group report Wrong Kind of Victim? suggests that the UK’s anti-trafficking measures are not fully compliant with the Council of the Europe convention of 2008 in relation to child trafficking in its obligations of protection and prosecution. That needs investigation along with the proposed European directive. Organisations working in the field of human trafficking need a firm and sympathetic lead from the Government to underline their efforts. How will the Government do that? Who will examine the different facets of trafficking?
There is still much to tackle. All the reports that I have read make a series of clear recommendations, none of which seems to be impossible to implement. Many simply mean a change of practice, such as assessments based on the best interests of the child, benefit of the doubt about issues such as age assessment, safeguarding by the provision of a dedicated key worker, systems to support the child, adequate accommodation—not distant and often unsafe bed and breakfast accommodation—the storing and sharing of information in local authorities and the use of the national referral mechanism to ensure that different forms of trafficking are considered and that cases can be identified at different stages. As someone said, trafficking is a process, not an event. Adequate time is needed to allow for counselling of young people under the age of 18 to disclose their circumstances if they are seeking asylum. The prosecution of child victims such as the example that I gave needs to be reassessed.
The coalition Government have indicated that they will not opt in to signing the proposed European directive on trafficking in human beings. Will the Government reconsider? I know that there has been confusion about the directive and between the meanings of the various conventions. Rather than getting into that confusion here, I suggest a meeting between Ministers, interested NGOs and parliamentarians to get total clarity on these directives and conventions. The organisation CARE points out that the European directive would add support to trafficked persons in relation to the non-prosecution of victims, assistance and support for victims such as in medicine or accommodation, special representatives in court for children, mandatory review of the results of anti-trafficking policies and assessment of trends.
This is not a party-political issue but an issue of moral imperative. I know that the Minister is sympathetic, but what will he and the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, do next? The problem of trafficking is complex, but we cannot stand by and see unaddressed inadequacies in our systems to convict perpetrators and protect victims. I look forward to the debate and the Minister’s response. I beg to move.
Lord Luke
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, on securing this most important debate on human trafficking and on her wide-ranging speech. Given that it is one of the most ancient and lucrative criminal activities in the world, it is with the utmost urgency that we in the United Kingdom do our best to combat modern slavery. As the other place takes note of Anti-slavery Day today—I think that it is today—so do we with this timely debate. We in this country have a tremendous record in abolishing the slave trade and slavery in the early 19th century, so it was a proud moment for me as a Conservative Member of your Lordships' House to see the Anti-Slavery Day Bill passed into law before the general election this year. Anthony Steen’s Private Member’s Bill not only codifies recognition of our anti-slavery history, but also stimulates the general public to address this most significant issue.
As emphasised by the noble Baroness, the figures concerning this subject are appalling. More than 800,000 people are trafficked across borders every year. Furthermore, as she said, 12.3 million adults and children are in forced labour, bonded labour and forced prostitution worldwide. Human trafficking is tied with the illegal arms industry and is the second largest criminal industry in the world today—and, sadly, is also the fastest growing. Effective tackling of the global modern slavery trade would, of course, substantially diminish the $32 billion annual turnover for the traffickers. Would the Minister explain the Government’s strategy at least to contain this enormous criminal industry, particularly in the field of traffickers of prostitutes aimed to take advantage of the 2012 Olympics and the large number of people coming over to watch that?
Human trafficking is not only of criminal benefit to traffickers but also a human disaster. One in six sexually exploited children and young people with whom Barnardo’s is currently working appear to have been trafficked within the United Kingdom. The August 2010 report from the Association of Chief Police Officers on Project Acumen found that of 30,000 women involved in off-street prostitution, 17,000 were migrants. Through not fighting human trafficking effectively, we are destroying children’s lives in the UK and fuelling our off-street sex trade. Can the Minister detail what the Government are doing to break the cycle of human trafficking to sexual slavery?
I mentioned the role of Barnardo’s in caring for young people affected by human trafficking. This is just one of a number of righteous organisations working together to fight human trafficking. I must mention the Legatum Institute, which briefed me, and Stop the Traffik, which does great work in this field.
I hope that the Minister is able to explain how the Government intend to work with community organisations to combat modern-day slavery. The previous Government have left us with a terrible economic legacy, doubling the national debt and leaving us with the biggest deficit in the G20. Nevertheless, we should not allow this to exclude us from our crucial global role in counteracting this vile practice. Improving our response to modern-day slavery should not be excluded on cost grounds. We must improve our agencies and redouble our efforts not only to tackle organised international groups who profit from these crimes but to identify and protect victims. I look forward to the other speakers and of, course, to my noble friend’s response to this very worthwhile and important debate.
Lord Avebury
My Lords, I, too, welcome the opportunity that the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, has afforded us of considering what has been done already to deal with the horrible crime of human trafficking and what still needs to be done. She made useful suggestions on that, and I agree with her wholeheartedly that it is wrong in principle to prosecute child victims of trafficking for minor offences such as having the wrong documents. I certainly hope that the noble Lord will give a favourable answer to the suggestion made by the noble Baroness that this offence be struck out, because it seems to me outrageous that children are spending time in custody when they had no other means of getting into the United Kingdom than the use of false documents, as many asylum seekers do.
I also welcome what the noble Baroness said about the European directive. I agree that it would be useful to have a meeting with the Minister to discuss the arguments that have been rehearsed in both Sub-Committee E and Sub-Committee F on what we should be doing about this directive. If it is possible for the noble Lord to say that he would agree to that meeting, I would be very grateful.
We have come a little way since the chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee in another place remarked, on producing his report of May 2008:
“we have no good information on the scale of the problem, enforcement is patchy, prosecution rates are low and there is little protection for victims”.
There has been a bit of an improvement since then, although we are still looking at the tip of the iceberg. The Select Committee said that on a conservative estimate, as has been mentioned, there were 5,000 victims of trafficking—of whom only a fraction have been identified—while the number of arrests as a result of the work of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre in 2009-10 reached a respectable total of 417. Yet there were only 73 convictions of traffickers in the latest three-year period for which figures are available.
One reason it has been so difficult to get convictions is that the prosecution has to prove double intent: first, that the offender was moving the victim across a national border and, secondly, doing so to exploit that person here in the United Kingdom. Because of this difficulty, the CPS often charges the trafficker with a lesser offence such as living off immoral earnings, which is easier to prove, but that sentence may be so short that the offender is out before the victim’s immigration status has been determined. Does the Minister think it would be possible to expand the definition of the trafficking offence so that it was only necessary to prove that the victim was not lawfully in the UK, not that the accused had been concerned in unlawfully bringing the victim here?
The noble Lord, Lord Luke, mentioned Barnardo’s, and I, too, pay tribute to its work. It published the very useful report, Whose child now?, on what is known about the practice of moving a child around the UK or from town to town for the purposes of sexual exploitation, a crime punishable by up to 14 years’ imprisonment under Section 58 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003. This crime is recognised as trafficking in the UK action plan and covered in the remit of the HTC. Since that penalty is the same for a child trafficked from another country, it gives the prosecution an alternative charge where it is easier to prove that the trafficker was responsible for the move within the UK, rather than for the original trafficking from overseas. Is the HTC building up a database of cases that can be referred to by the police and the CPS to help them decide what is the most appropriate charge?
In the Government’s response to the sixth report of the Home Affairs Select Committee last August, they said that the HTC would continue to improve its role as a central point for the collection and analysis of data through its responsibility as the national referral mechanism. This process requires that a suspected victim of trafficking is referred to a competent authority for a decision on whether he has been correctly assessed, and the HTC not only provides the central co-ordination and expertise to combat trafficking but is also one of the two main agencies acting as a competent authority. It is dealing with a steadily increasing number of cases expeditiously and, of the 543 decisions in the year to 30 March 2010, two-thirds were accepted.
There does not appear to be an appeal procedure against a decision not to accept an individual as trafficked; the Minister will correct me if I am wrong, but presumably that question will be dealt with in the course of an appeal against refusal of leave to remain. Alternatively, the refused victim may wish to return to his or her country of origin, and I would be grateful if the Minister would confirm that if the victim was under 18, he would get financial assistance from the IOM under their AVRFC scheme. Also, why should adult victims of trafficking not be eligible for the same benefits? Will the Minister give us any information about the fate of the 192 who were not accepted in the year to 31 March?
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, for initiating such an important debate so close to Anti-slavery Day, which is next Monday. I also want to add to the congratulatory words of the noble Lord, Lord Luke, about Anthony Steen for the tremendous work that he did in combating human trafficking during a large part of the period that he spent as a Member of the other House. I declare an interest as co-chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Human Trafficking and a trustee of the Human Trafficking Foundation.
We all have concerns, which have already been expressed, about the extent of human trafficking in the United Kingdom and the failures to deal effectively with it. The Metropolitan Police, however, have done some extremely good work, although police work across the country is patchy. I congratulate the Metropolitan Police on a recent operation in east London in conjunction with Redbridge Council on 12 October, where they removed 28 Roma children believed to be victims of a Roma gang of child traffickers. There are major Roma gangs working this country.
Trafficking, as noble Lords will know, is big business; your Lordships might be interested to know that it is worth as much, or nearly as much, as drug trafficking, and begging is more profitable than prostitution. My concerns are particularly about children and young people trafficked not only for prostitution but for begging and forced servitude, and the lack of sufficient help for these young people.
I want to raise several issues for the Minister’s consideration. First, I am concerned about the operation of the national referral mechanism, the NRM, set up in April 2009. Children who come illegally into the United Kingdom are often identified by safeguarding teams of local authorities or by the police as probably trafficked. They are then referred to the NRM, which makes a separate decision as to whether these young people are trafficked. Sometimes the NRM makes decisions without any input from the local authority or from the police. Between April 2009 and June 2010, 215 children, potential victims of trafficking, were referred to NRM. Twenty-eight were British, 187 from abroad. The largest single group, of 59, was from Vietnam, and the largest type was labour exploitation. In only 77 cases was it decided that the child or young person had been trafficked. Twenty-four were British and 53 were from outside the UK. Many children not accepted by the NRM as having been trafficked are considered by police to have been trafficked. It seems extraordinary that where the police consider a child or young person is likely to have been trafficked, the NRM none the less decides that they are not a victim. There also does not appear to be any appeal process against the NRM decision, which is leading to expensive and time-consuming applications for judicial review of those decisions.
I was told by a senior police officer this week that when some of these young people appeal to the immigration tribunal against refusal of asylum, police give evidence to the tribunal on behalf of some of them. I have concerns, therefore, about the training of those in the NRM who make these crucial decisions. I ask the Minister to look again at how the NRM is operating, the training of those who make the decisions, and whether weight should be given to the police and safeguarding committee’s assessment that a young person has been trafficked. I also ask the Minister what level of support is being given to these 215 young people. Are the police investigating the cases and is there a crime report number for each child referred to the NRM?
The second matter is one that has been raised by several noble Lords: the prosecution of children and young people who are under the control of traffickers. There was a recent example when three Romanian women, two of them under the age of 18, were convicted and sentenced to prison in Manchester. They had a successful appeal last week. They had been forced by a violent gang into a brothel with other trafficked women and are now giving evidence against the traffickers. The UK Human Trafficking Centre and the Poppy Project both considered that the women were probably trafficked. The fact that they themselves were victims should have been established before the prosecution.
The largest group of such young people is made up of Vietnamese boys and girls. The noble Baroness, Lady Massey, gave us an example of a case in, I think, Doncaster. These young people are trafficked into this country for labour exploitation—that is, to look after cannabis farms. There are thousands of cannabis farms in private houses around the country, but why on earth are these children prosecuted? I understand that this is a matter for the Ministry of Justice. Will the Minister ask the Ministry of Justice to consider the matter?
My third point is about support services for children. I, too, am concerned about the Government’s decision not to opt in to the directive. The previous Government ought to be congratulated on extending the law on the definition of trafficking to labour exploitation, domestic servitude and forced begging, but these welcome improvements do not go far enough. The most important point that I have raised today is the lack of proper provision for looking after individual children who are found to have been trafficked. There is no special representative, as required by Article 14 of the directive. Various organisations may look after them at different times but there is no one person in charge. There are gaps in the system of care for these children. The Government really cannot say that the existing legislation and procedures are compliant with Article 14. Will the Government look at the pilot project that is just about to start, or has just started, in Scotland?
Finally, opting in to the directive would focus the Government’s mind and show that the UK continues to be a leader in the excellent work that it does in catching and deterring the trafficking gangs. I ask the Government to look again at whether they really want to opt out of the directive.
Lord McColl of Dulwich
My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen, on securing this debate. As has been mentioned, the Home Office is reluctant to opt in to the proposed European directive because it says that it will make very little difference to the way that the UK tackles the problem. The Anti-Trafficking Monitoring Group published a paper in June 2010 suggesting that anti-trafficking practice in the United Kingdom is not compliant with key concepts relating to the rule of law itself and, specifically, relating to the principle—identified by the late Lord Bingham—that the question of legal right and liability should ordinarily be resolved by application of the law and not exercised on discretion. This principle seems to be routinely violated in the national referral mechanism, which the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has already mentioned. It is regrettable that in numerous cases the authorities concluded that as the person concerned agreed to come to work in the UK, they could not have been trafficked. However, agreement is often obtained from trafficked persons by means of coercion, threats or deceit, and for this reason, according to the convention, the issue of whether the victim consented is to be treated as irrelevant.
It is perhaps helpful to consider individual cases so that one can be clear about the difficulties of fighting trafficking. I draw your Lordships’ attention to the case of a girl of 13, in Africa, who was trafficked and brought to London, where she was locked in a basement and suffered repeated rape as a child prostitute. After six years of this hell she was considered too old for the clients and so her trafficker released her and provided her with false documents. When she tried to leave the country using those documents she was arrested, convicted and served a 10-month prison sentence. All of us would agree that this is not justice, but, of course, the key question is how we educate and train the relevant organisations so that people on the front line recognise when the person they are dealing with may have been trafficked and respond appropriately. I believe that this is best achieved by opting in. I have received advice from interested parties who believe that, contrary to the Home Office’s view, the proposed directive contains greater protection for the victim of trafficking than is afforded under existing law.
If, as the Home Office believes, the proposed directive merely does what the present law requires, there can be no harm in agreeing to it. If, on the other hand, our present law provides less protection, that is a very good reason for opting in. An example of extra protection is Article 7, which proposes the possibility of not prosecuting a victim who has committed an offence as a direct consequence of being subject to trafficking. Of course, the victim would still have to prove that he or she had been trafficked. This would improve the present system under which the trafficked victim can be subjected to the further trauma and stigma of a criminal trial, albeit that the penalty or punishment may take into account the circumstances. It would be much better by far that no trial should take place if the trafficked person can prove that she or he is trafficked.
In summary, the proposed directive would build on rather than replicate existing legislation. It is quite clear that the number of criminal proceedings and the number of victims who are assisted remain very low compared with the enormity of the problem of human trafficking. The directive will streamline law enforcement efforts in cross-border cases and may well reduce costs. Provisions that decriminalise victims are urgently required, especially as many victims in the UK continue to be criminalised for offences committed while being deceived or coerced, yet the traffickers often evade criminal responsibility. We must protect victims before, during and after criminal proceedings, especially the children. This is essential to increase prosecution rates and prevent secondary victimisation through this process. The appointment of a rapporteur or independent body should ensure that shortfalls in the system are properly identified.
Trafficking is a cross-border activity often masterminded by sophisticated criminals. If one can agree a unified system of law to fight this evil trade, it will facilitate co-operation between the relevant enforcement agencies in the countries involved. The proposed directive affords us a chance to agree a unified system and we should take it. The directive would result in a very important change in our law so that rather than putting vulnerable trafficked people through the further trauma of prosecution, such people are treated as victims and neither prosecuted nor awarded penalties.
The unpleasant truth is that human trafficking in England is a big problem and a lucrative trade, as others have mentioned. The proposed directive would improve the rights of victims and ensure a co-ordinated approach with our European partners. We should not turn our backs on this opportunity. There has been some good news in that Professor Trevor Beedham, of the Worshipful Society of Apothecaries, has established a diploma to instruct those involved in this whole business on how they should deal with the victims. That is a welcome development.
Baroness Gould of Potternewton
My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend for initiating this very important debate on the horrific subject of trafficking women and girls. While trafficking is not a new phenomenon, its magnitude, form and impact have become more alarming and devastating. As my noble friend said, trafficking is modern-day slavery.
The Project Acumen research, to which the noble Lord, Lord Luke, referred, also identified that a minimum of 2,600 victims were sex-trafficked into England and Wales during the 12-month period of the research, but given that trafficking is intrinsically linked to constant movement—women being moved from place to place on a weekly basis—this snapshot cannot give a complete picture. I am sure that the figure is much higher.
Other noble Lords have talked a lot about prosecutions. I want to talk a little about prevention. The Olympics and Paralympics are the greatest sporting events in the world, but there is ample evidence to show that trafficking of women increases when large sporting events are held. For instance, according to the Greek Ministry of Public Safety, there had been a 95 per cent increase in the number of identified human trafficking victims during the 2004 Athens Olympics. Following those Games, a Russian teenage Olympian was trafficked to the Canary Islands and was only found by the police three years later. At the 2006 FIFA World Cup in Germany, there was not as much trafficking as might have been expected, but despite careful planning by the German authorities there was evidence of criminal networks trafficking across Europe. There was similar evidence from the Winter Olympics in Vancouver, and in South Africa this year there is evidence of trafficked women being transported across the continent in time for those games. This evidence cannot be ignored.
Britain is a Mecca for the extremely profitable industry of human trafficking and, of course, the coming Olympics are an opportunity for a very lucrative trade. There is also the increased ability to facilitate entry of trafficked women as visitors to the Olympics. What training is being given to staff at points of entry about trafficking during the build-up to the Olympics? I am referring not only to airports and sea ports, but St Pancras station, which is important. There is already evidence in east London in particular of increased applications for massage parlours, saunas and strip clubs. A survey of the London sex industry carried out in 2008 showed that four out of five massage parlours and saunas offered sexual acts on site. Because of this, the organisation of which I was chair, the Women’s National Commission—which I am sorry to say has been purged today—set up a working group alongside the Home Office and the Metropolitan Police to help to co-ordinate their work on reducing the level of trafficking of women up to and during the Games and on looking at the services which could be offered as a consequence of prostitution, abuse and sexual assault. This work can no longer be carried on. Do the Government have an overall plan for bringing together and co-ordinating the work that is being carried out by many organisations on the different aspects of this issue during the build-up to the Olympic Games?
Like the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, I congratulate the Metropolitan Police, with which we have been working, on its continuing efforts to try to do something about trafficking across the five boroughs that are particularly involved. There needs to be a holistic, multi-agency approach, and that is the Government???s responsibility. I hope that the Minister can answer this in some detail and that he can say whether the Government intend to continue with the UK action plan initiated by the previous Government.
My final point to the Minister has been raised by every speaker so far. It concerns the Government’s refusal to opt in to the directive. I support those who are asking for a meeting. Refusing to opt in to the directive is one of the most serious things that the Government have done. I am trying to be gracious about this. The Government have said that they are committed to human rights. Nothing violates women’s human rights more than trafficking for the sex industry, which is what is happening. Every effort should be made to ensure that their human rights are safeguarded. That means opting in to the directive. Doing otherwise raises doubts, and one starts to question the Government’s commitment to human rights. I hope that we can have a meeting and thrash it out, and that the Government will change their mind.
In conclusion, and to revert to the 2012 Games, it would be a tragedy if the UK were added to the list of countries where trafficking was a focus of the Games. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell me that that will not be so.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
My Lords, I am pleased to join this debate with a brief intervention and to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, for initiating it. We have all spoken with the same intent, including the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, and my noble friend Avebury. I am glad to call my noble friend Lord McColl, “my noble friend”; I could not say that of every Member on these Benches. It is wonderful to say how much I agree with so much of what he said this afternoon.
The directive is designed to prevent slavery for sexual purposes of people trafficked into the United Kingdom. It includes a common Europe-wide definition of the crime of trafficking, to make it easier to convict offenders across the European Union. Co-ordinated action is vital, especially as many of the offenders are from new member states of the EU. As the EU might expand its borders again, there are predictions that the situation could get even more serious. I just do not know why we would opt out of the directive.
The directive is a very useful provision, to which the United Kingdom should be party. We cannot veto it, but we can opt out. What is the message to the rest of the world and other members of the EU if we opt out? It is that we are again the Johnnys-come-lately of Europe, as we have been on so many occasions. We missed the boat at the setting-up of the European Economic Community. We dragged our heels, and went in when the agenda had already been drawn up by those who were already members. We dragged our feet on the common agricultural policy. Because we were late going in, the regulations were already there, in favour of the members who were already on the inside.
On this occasion, at least, let us say that we will be at the heart of a humanitarian vision in Europe, which is where we should be. We should be making the European Union the leading agent of humanitarian causes in the whole world. We can make that contribution.
In conclusion, our record on the adoption of European directives has been laudable. We have adopted most of them. On this occasion, however, as my noble friend Lord McColl has said, if, as the Government say, what is in the directive is already covered in our laws, what objection can there be to our opting in to the directive? I ask my colleagues and others to give it their wholehearted support.
Lord Bew
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, for securing this important debate. She has performed a great service to the House. I speak somewhat reluctantly. Three years ago, when I first came to the House, the view in Northern Ireland was that there simply was no problem with human trafficking. The Police Service of Northern Ireland said that there were no signs of it in society. The then Minister, Paul Goggins, who had responsibility for the matter and who was very diligent, claimed that there was no clear evidence of human trafficking. When the UK-wide anti-trafficking initiative, Operation Pentameter, was launched in 2007, it was again thought that there was no sign of human trafficking in Northern Ireland.
One could take some comfort from this from a Northern Irish point of view. One might say that the prevalence in Northern Irish society of stronger forms of religious morality than in the rest of the United Kingdom may have played a role. Less charming is the fact that in Northern Ireland the paramilitaries often control prostitution and therefore it would be difficult for outsiders to break in. For whatever combination of charming and less charming reasons, it appeared that Northern Ireland did not have this problem.
However, things have changed dramatically and sadly during the course of this year. The assistant chief constable, Drew Harris, has issued a statement saying that the police have now recovered dozens of individuals whom they suspect have been trafficked for the purposes of prostitution or domestic servitude or to work in some form of business. The assistant chief constable’s statement continues:
“After we carry out operations and raid places, neighbours say that they wondered why lots of men were coming and going to and from the premises at all times of the night and day”.
In June of this year, Northern Ireland’s Minister for Justice, David Ford, again said that anti-racketeering officials had rescued dozens of victims of trafficking in Northern Ireland. He said that human trafficking is nothing less than modern-day slavery.
In this respect, the Northern Ireland Assembly's work has been good and strong. In June of this year, the Public Accounts Committee also issued a statement to the effect that it now acknowledged that there was a serious problem; and in September, talks were held with the relevant minister in the Republic of Ireland, Dermot Ahern, Kenny MacAskill, the relevant Scottish Minister, and David Ford, the Minister for Justice in Northern Ireland, in order to co-ordinate policy. After this meeting, Mr Ford admitted that Northern Ireland was a staging post for human traffickers operating between Scotland and the Republic. This followed the arrest of a Scotland-based group, which was alleged to have been involved in forced trafficking and to have had a large budget for advertising sexual services in the local press. The sophistication of the operation was remarkable.
The Minister who replies at the end of the debate has no responsibility for the matters that I have just raised; they are devolved matters. In this respect, I am happy to say that the Northern Ireland devolved authorities are taking the matter seriously. Other noble Lords have raised the issue of the European directive and our compliance with it. My own view was that the Government had a reasonable case. However, while listening to the speeches this morning, in particular those of the noble Lords, Lord McColl and Lord Roberts, with their emphasis on the significance of the European directive with respect to the cross-border dimensions of the problem, I began to wonder whether the Government's case was as strong or as reasonable as I thought it was yesterday.
Even more profound than the question of the European directive is that of our values. Precisely because we are at a moment of economic crisis in the United Kingdom, the decisions and tone of government must reflect a sense of what it is to be a civilised society. This is even more important now. Therefore, I ask the Minister, at the end of the debate, to address the seriousness of the moral issue.
Lord Sheikh
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, for securing this debate. Human trafficking is probably the world’s third largest illegal trade.
I have raised the issue of human trafficking on a number of occasions in your Lordships’ House, as it is a topic about which I feel strongly. This abhorrent practice is equivalent to modern-day slavery. Victims of trafficking are lured from their native countries with promises of greater opportunities in a foreign land. They are then traded by ruthless gangmasters like commodities. I make no distinction between those who engage in human trafficking and the slave masters of past years.
Women and children tend to be the main targets of the predatory gangs who engage in this immoral trade. I care about issues relating to women and children. I very recently attended the sixth Asia-Europe Parliamentary Partnership meeting in Brussels as a delegate of the British Parliament. At the meeting, which was attended by parliamentarians of 22 countries, I initiated discussions concerning the protection of females and children. I successfully tabled the following amendment, which was included in the final declaration:
“We stress the need to give priority to gender equality and empowerment of women. There must be progress on the reduction of maternal mortality and improving maternal and reproductive health. We totally condemn the awful practice of abuse of women and children as a weapon of war to instil fear amongst opposing sides in war-torn areas”.
The Association of Chief Police Officers released a publication in August that implied that 17,000 of the estimated 30,000 women who engage in off-street prostitution were migrants. More startling is the fact that 2,600 of these women are thought to have been victims of trafficking. I am pleased that such victims are given a 45-day reflection period, along with the option of temporary accommodation. However, a number of organisations have indicated that that might be insufficient. What plans do the Government have to ensure that victims of human trafficking are given adequate assistance to rebuild their lives?
I welcome statutory guidance to support collaboration across government agencies in areas such as finding suitable accommodation for child-trafficking victims. Reports suggest that a growing number of children are being trafficked into Britain to work in domestic cannabis factories. A study by the Association of Chief Police Officers reveals that child exploitation for the purposes of cannabis production has increased in recent years. Last year, the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre published a threat assessment of child trafficking, which revealed that Vietnam was the country of origin for a number of children trafficked to work in cannabis factories. I should be grateful if the Minister could inform your Lordships’ House of the steps that Her Majesty’s Government are taking as part of co-ordinated action with the Vietnamese Government to tackle this worrying trend.
I welcome the announcement by the Home Secretary of the new National Crime Agency. This new organisation will make it easier for police forces to collaborate on national issues, and it will tackle organised crime while protecting our borders. I also look forward to learning the contents of the imminent national plan on trafficking.
I support the increased efforts, announced by the Government, to detect and rescue victims of trafficking by allowing border officials to conduct separate interviews at all airports for women and children travelling with an adult who is not a parent, guardian or husband. I am also in favour of efforts by the Royal Navy, as part of the Africa Partnership Station initiative, to strengthen maritime safety and security in the western and central parts of the continent by training the Nigerian naval forces to police their waters effectively.
I am proud that the United Kingdom has ratified the Council of Europe Convention on Action against Trafficking in Human Beings. We must work closely and successfully with our European partners to combat this evil practice.
I welcome the United Nations global plan of action against trafficking in persons, as it calls for a common approach to combat this practice that is co-ordinated and consistent across continents. I particularly welcome the creation of a United Nations voluntary trust fund for victims of trafficking, where the task will be to protect the vulnerable while supporting the physical and psychological recovery of victims. I am committed to seeing all forms of human trafficking eradicated. The exploitation of people is horrific and cannot be tolerated in any society.
I was born and brought up in Africa, a continent that has been ravaged by slavery. It is where great men such as General Gordon and Dr Livingstone lived and died—people who passionately believed in abolishing slavery. I have great admiration for Dr Livingstone, and with my father visited Ujiji, on the shores of Lake Tanganyika, where HM Stanley first met Dr Livingstone.
As a nation, we have a proud history of defending the rights of those who have been oppressed. We must make every effort to deal with the plight of the many individuals who have the misfortune of falling victim to this shameful practice.
Lord Dubs
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lady Massey on having made this debate possible. I want to say a little about the nature of the problem and what can be done about it and to refer briefly, as others have, to trafficked children.
It is important to distinguish between people smuggling and people trafficking. The better an understanding we have of the problem, the better we can tackle it. Smuggling is clearly an activity where the person being smuggled wants to be smuggled, whereas trafficking involves force, violence, deception, intimidation and perhaps coercion. Indeed, a person might start their journey to this country being smuggled and then be trafficked on arrival, so it is quite a complicated problem.
The figures are very hard to come by. We are probably dealing with the tip of an iceberg when we talk about, say, 5,000 people trafficked into this country. Estimates are hard to get. It is clear that the majority of the victims are women and children and it is clear that it is an extremely lucrative activity for those engaged in it. The Convention on Action against Trafficking in Human Beings came into force in April 2009 and it helped by including provisions to identify victims and to bring more cases to court.
Child trafficking is the most appalling aspect of the whole issue that we are debating. It has already been said that it includes exploitation in terms of domestic servitude, helping with cannabis farms, street crime and pickpocketing. It also includes sexual exploitation, child abuse, benefit fraud, illegal adoption and even forced marriage.
UNICEF has put out some positive statements. It says clearly that the victims of trafficking should not be punished for illegal entry or stay in the European Union or for forced involvement in illegal activities, but that, as victims, they are entitled to protection, assistance and compensation. That should surely be the basis on which we approach these unfortunate people. As regards children, it is absolutely clear that the needs of the child must come first and that any intervention should be based primarily not on concerns about immigration status but on the needs of the child and what can be done to secure his or her well-being.
I understand from various figures that about half the people trafficked into western and central Europe come from the Balkans or former Soviet Union countries, although I also understand that a disproportionately large number of children may be coming from Vietnam. I was in Moldova a year or so ago, where I met people from a number of NGOs. They were all concerned about trafficking—either about informing and warning local people of the dangers of trafficking or about helping those who had been returned. Very few people from Moldova are trafficked to the UK but it is clear that, as a country, we need to provide more support for NGOs and other bodies in the source countries to help them in preventive work and in securing the safe return and well-being of those who have been removed from western countries.
I have seen an estimate that one in seven sex workers has been forced into prostitution through trafficking, although that is a lower figure than was bandied about in the debates in this House a year or two ago. Nevertheless, it is an important issue and one that we should bear in mind.
Last June, the Home Affairs Select Committee produced a report and I want to refer to some of its recommendations and to other recommendations. The first key point is to increase public awareness, as the issue is known about by too few people and is only occasionally mentioned in the newspapers. Greater public awareness would lead to greater detection.
As has been said, there is a need to train all public officials who might come into contact with people where there are indications that they have been trafficked—for example, workers in the health service, social workers and even building inspectors and health and safety inspectors. We need to look closely at some industrial sectors where there must be a suspicion that a large number of trafficked people work, such as the construction industry, although that is probably an area less relevant to women. I believe that immigration authorities should issue sanctions against the employers of unregistered workers as a disincentive to exploitation, rather than having the burden fall heavily on those whom we should regard as victims.
Returning again to children, I have read that one difficulty with children is getting good interpreters. It is no good just getting someone who speaks their language, as sometimes an interpreter might not be on the side of the child. A sensitive approach is required. A social worker should be allocated to each child or young person where there is a suspicion that that child has been trafficked in order to provide support. Bed and breakfast accommodations are not suitable in that situation and one needs to provide far more support.
We have a responsibility to deal with this matter in this country but, as everyone has said, it is an international problem, which is why we must regret that the Government have not yet gone along with the EU directive. I hope that they will do so and that they will accept that we need to co-operate with other countries in dealing with the problems at source and support those countries that are trying to prevent their own citizens from being trafficked to the West.
Baroness Benjamin
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, for securing this timely and important debate. I feel that the noble Baroness and I are kindred spirits, as we both work to promote the well-being of children. I agree with everything that she said in her introduction, as I do with everything that has been said so far in the debate.
I suppose that I should declare an interest in this debate, as my ancestors were enslaved people. Millions of Africans were taken from their villages, kidnapped, shackled, sold and transported to distant lands to toil and labour for the financial benefit of others. Many were murdered if they tried to escape. Men, women and children had to be strong to survive the beatings and abuse, stripped of their names, their culture and their dignity. Thankfully, hundreds of activists motivated the population to stand up against slavery and 200 years ago the Abolition of Slavery Act was passed and this horrific trade in African life was halted, bringing to an end a trade that involved most European countries. Yet here we are in the 21st century, taking part in a debate on human trafficking—slavery—which involves not just those very same European countries but almost every continent.
Slavery still exists; only its face has changed. Its victims are enduring the same indignities and horrors as my ancestors. I know that noble Lords will agree with me when I say that the trade in human beings is a foul and evil practice, which can be stopped only if society and government act. Like those brave activists in the past, we have to do whatever we can to bring an end to this barbaric trade. We must educate the public to be vigilant, to be aware and not to ignore the signs around them: children begging in the streets, Fagin-like characters often managed by sinister adults; houses in suburban streets frequented by numerous men; and sweatshops and backstreet factories. Let us not ignore these blatant signals for fear of getting involved.
Like many of the problems in our wounded, materialistic world, there is no simple solution. Only an attack from all sides will have any effect. One of the strongest weapons that we have at our disposal is education and some of the strongest educational weapons that we have, which the anti-slavery activists did not have, are film, television and the internet, which can be used for good. Today, these weapons allow us to highlight and to bring to the attention of everyone in the global society in which we live the problem of human trafficking, which takes place all over the world and in some of the most unexpected places. I am proud that the media industry, to which I have devoted the past 40 years of my life, can make a difference—and television the most.
The television series of the book Roots had a profound effect on me 33 years ago, as it told the story of my ancestors and their journey through enslavement. But in the past 10 years or so, many shocking, hard-hitting films and television programmes have been made, dramatically increasing public awareness of the modern trade in human beings. The most recent was “I Am Slave”, which was shown on Channel 4, a true story about a 12 year-old girl, kidnapped from her village in Sudan, who ended up as a domestic slave, right here in London, chained, beaten and abused. I wept when I watched that programme, for that was someone’s child, someone’s daughter, someone’s sister. It is said that over 5,000 more like her are working behind closed doors here in the UK. That is shameful and something has to be done about it.
Another film that illustrates the horror of human behaviour is “Trafficked”, a haunting and chillingly shocking film about the sex trade in Ireland. It gives a graphic insight into what is happening when we are tucked up safely in our secure comfy beds. The beds that those victims lie in are far from safe and cosy.
More and more people are being inspired by documentaries, films and newspaper articles to become proactive, such as the young musician whom I head about just recently, who saw the documentary “The Journey” and recorded a CD to tell the story of young women sold into sex slavery and continually moved across borders. He did so because he felt compelled to do something to raise awareness. I believe that, in order to engage more people like him, we should encourage the media to search out stories that highlight the evil trade in human beings.
In centuries past, slavery was out in the open and was more visible, but now it is in the shadows. In many ways, society is unwittingly feeding it by demanding cheap labour, by buying cheap products and by visiting brothels. If the men who use those brothels thought for a moment, they might become aware that the young girl with whom they are having sex—perhaps the same age as their own daughter—is a victim of human traffickers.
Eradication of human trafficking has to be given the highest priority by all Governments. It has to be tackled on an international scale because it is an international problem. We must remain constantly alert and on guard, because, sadly, evil is a human condition, which only a powerful sense of morality, honesty and spiritual good can overcome. Some may think that slavery has been consigned to the dustbin of history, but how wrong they are. Slavery and human trafficking are alive and kicking; they are still here on our doorsteps and they are gaining strength. So for the sake of my ancestors and my descendants, let us bring an end to human trafficking. Together let us go into battle and fight it with all our hearts, or this wicked, evil trade will continue to be a shameful stain on humanity.
Lord Laming
My Lords, I, too, add my congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, on initiating this important debate. The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, is right to draw a distinction between smuggling and trafficking but, sadly for the victim, the end result is often the same. I say that because if I were to ask each one of us to think about where we were on, say, the evening of 28 October 1998, I suspect that we would struggle to think back. Had Victoria Climbié lived—and she certainly should have lived—she would have been able to say that that was probably one of the most significant dates in her life.
Victoria then lived with her parents and siblings in a small community in the Ivory Coast. She was then eight years old. She was very intelligent and energetic—a very lively child—and her parents worked extremely hard to get her into a local school, where the head teacher judged her to be one of the brightest students whom he had taught. On that October evening, a great aunt visited them. Although from the Ivory Coast, she was in fact a French citizen and she was on her way back to Paris. She pressed Victoria’s parents to allow her to take Victoria back to Paris with her so that she could provide her with a better education and greater life opportunities. A combination of Victoria’s excitement and the numerous reassurances that the parents were given helped to overcome their understandable hesitation and Victoria left with her aunt the following morning.
What the parents could not have known was that the aunt had earlier persuaded the French authorities that she had a daughter in the Ivory Coast and that she had arranged there for that mythical daughter to be registered on her passport. Of course, she did not have a daughter; she had instead selected a girl called Anna for that purpose. Alas, at a very late stage, the arrangements to get Anna back to Paris fell through, so in desperation she put great pressure on Victoria’s parents. Before the aunt and Victoria boarded the flight back to Paris, Victoria had her head shaved and the aunt acquired a wig in order to pass her off as Anna. Victoria was told that from now on she was not Victoria Climbié but Anna Kouao.
Once the two had established themselves in Paris, the French authorities began to ask questions about Anna because they were concerned about her welfare. Kouao did not welcome those questions and her response was quickly to move to London. Once in London, she presented herself and Anna as a homeless family. As in France, the presence of a young child meant that the authorities sought to help with accommodation and financial benefits.
I mention all this because what followed in respect of that child should give us all deep concern about the dangers of what can happen to trafficked children in our country. In the following 10 months, Anna was known to no fewer than four different social services departments, three housing departments and two specialist police child protection teams. Moreover, she was admitted to two different hospitals, because the staff in accident and emergency suspected that she was being deliberately harmed, and she was referred to a specialist children’s centre managed by the NSPCC. Yet despite the involvement of all those key agencies and literally hundreds of staff, Anna was never registered at school and never attended school for one day in those 10 months. Worst of all, nobody asked what a day was like for her in her life.
We need not dwell on the appalling suffering that Anna experienced or her terrible death. Suffice it to say that it was only after she died that the police did some remarkable work and discovered that she was not Anna Kouao but Victoria Climbié and that she was not a French citizen but had parents in the Ivory Coast.
I mention this only because, as we all recognise, millions of children cross international borders every day and it would be terribly naive of any of us to think that within that number there is not a high proportion of children who are potentially seriously at risk. The challenge for us is to ensure that those children who are at risk are recognised and identified and that steps are taken quickly to protect them.
What we do not know is how many children come to this country to meet someone at an airport or a port purporting to be their parent who is not their parent, how many young adults are made to look like children or how many young people have been brought to this country having been promised a wonderful future only then to experience the most ugly and destructive aspects of human behaviour. It is impossible to get accurate figures, but precisely because of that we should do everything to work together across national and international boundaries to ensure that we identify and protect children and young people who are subject to some of the most appalling things.
I hope that the Government will give further thought to opting in to the EU directive.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I, too, congratulate my noble friend Lady Massey on her timely and moving speech on human trafficking—or modern slavery, as my noble friend Lady Gould described it. I pay tribute to all the other speakers in our debate, which has raised some very important questions for the Government to answer. The noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, gave us a very clear wake-up call.
The scale of the problem has been the subject of some debate both today and among a number of the relevant organisations. I accept the point made by my noble friend Lady Massey about the difficulty of obtaining statistics which can be deemed to be accurate, but there seems to be a consensus that we could be talking about as many as 12 million adults and children in forced labour, bonded labour and forced prostitution. Behind those statistics is a huge scale of human misery.
In the UK, in 2008-09, the House of Commons Home Affairs Select Committee found real challenges in estimating the numbers and, in the end, settled for more than 5,000 victims, while the EU estimates that between 100,000 and 800,000 people are trafficked into the EU every year. Those statistics are an interesting contrast with the number of prosecutions in both this country and other countries. In 2007-08, there were 87 prosecutions for trafficking. In 2008-09, there were 114 prosecutions. There were 18 convictions in 2007, 38 in 2008 and 35 in 2009. I understand that a further 35 cases are currently progressing through the criminal justice system. That shows some progress, but there is a long way to go. I echo the congratulations given by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, to the Metropolitan Police but, as she suggests, other forces need to learn some of the lessons that the Met has learnt in developing their own programmes.
The contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Laming, was very apposite when he reminded us of the tragedy of Victoria Climbié. As I recall, the work that he and others did identified overwhelming failures of professional practice and the failure of professionals in different agencies to communicate and share information. I must say that the announcement by the Government of the abolition of ContactPoint is quite extraordinary in that context. I ask the Minister to explain to me why the Government really consider that necessary when the whole point of that initiative is to ensure that information is shared. Surely the lesson of Victoria Climbié is that had information been shared by those agencies, she might well be alive today.
I am proud of what the previous Government did in relation to this difficult issue. The UK action plan was published in March 2007. The United Kingdom Human Trafficking Centre was established. We signed the Council of Europe’s Convention on Action against Trafficking in Human Beings. The focus was widened to tackle issues such as forced labour and child trafficking. Since 2003, there have been specific anti-trafficking laws in force in the UK, including the Sexual Offences Act 2003 and the Asylum and Immigration Act (Treatment of Claimants, etc) 2004. As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said, the national referral mechanism was set up following implementation of ECPAT in April 2009. The Poppy Project was set up to provide accommodation and support for women who have been trafficked into prostitution and has 54 bed spaces in houses nationally.
I am proud of what was achieved, but I fully accept that there is much more to do. My noble friend Lord Dubs referred to the Home Affairs Select Committee report and its recommendations for making improvements in the services available and the co-ordination that is necessary. I was very taken by what he said about the need to improve preventive measures through increasing public awareness and the need to train a variety of public officers about the indicators of forced labour so that they can identify it and help victims to find help. There is concern that the identification system is geared towards viewing trafficking as an immigration crime, coupling it with facilitation or people smuggling, which are completely different. Those are interesting matters that need to be considered very carefully.
In relation to the UK national referral mechanism, there has been concern about the training of the staff involved and the fact that more emphasis is placed on the immigration status of presumed trafficked persons rather than on the alleged crime against them. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, put some very pertinent questions to the Minister, and I hope that he will be able to respond to them. It is worth making the point that this problem was also referred to by the US State Department in its 2010 report which stated that although the UK fully complies with minimum standards, the Government need to take greater steps to ensure victims are not penalised for unlawful acts. My noble friend Lady Massey and the noble Lord, Lord McColl, gave some positive and powerful illustrations of what can go wrong.
We then come to the Government’s policy. Mr Damian Green, the Immigration Minister, said that combating human trafficking is a key priority and that the Government are committed to identifying and protecting victims. I welcome that statement as a broad principle, but there are a number of questions that the Minister needs to answer. I shall raise three: on the directive, support for victims and the resources and effort available for education and prevention, which were raised by my noble friend Lady Gould.
This country played a pivotal role in the development of the trafficking directive. It contains a number of very important provisions. I still do not understand why the Government have decided to opt out. Theresa May told the House of Commons on 6 September that she saw no benefit to the UK because most of the provisions have already been acted upon in the UK. The Home Office said that the directive will make little difference to the way the UK tackles the problem. Surely that misses the point. Apart from the point put by the noble Lord, Lord McColl—that briefing that we have received suggests that that is not entirely accurate because the directive goes further than our existing—it seems to me to be an incredibly crass decision. We played a key role in getting this directive drafted, and we want other countries to implement the proposed directive, so how can we seriously expect those countries to do so if we are not prepared to ratify it? I do not understand the reason that the Government have given. The logic of the analysis by the noble Lord, Lord McColl, was unanswerable. I am sorry to suspect that hostility to Europe led the Government down that path. I hope the Government will reconsider. Perhaps the Minister has some good news for us today. At the least, I hope that he will take up the invitation by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and others to convene a meeting of noble Lords interested in this area.
I shall make two other points. I think that the Minister will not commit himself on resources before the 20th of this month, but I hope that he will seek to protect the services currently available. I also hope that when it comes to prevention and education he will listen very carefully to the comments of my noble friends Lord Dubs and Lady Gould about the need to strengthen preventive programmes now and in the context, as my noble friend said, of the Olympic Games when, as she said, we might expect to see a major increase in trafficking activity. This is a very important debate, and I hope that the Government will be able to respond constructively.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, on securing this debate on this very important topic. I know that she has a long-standing interest in this area and, in particular, in the welfare of children and young people. The debate has been very interesting. I am grateful to all noble Lords for their helpful contributions on how to improve our efforts against trafficking. This is a matter on which I know there is much cross-party interest, and think I can go so far as to say agreement. The prominence of this topic is reflected in the fact that there are no fewer than three debates in Parliament on this issue this week, as we approach Anti-Slavery Day on Monday, which is intended to raise awareness of trafficking as modern-day slavery. My noble friend Lady Benjamin underlined that point in her passionate and eloquent speech.
I assure your Lordships that this Government take their responsibilities to combat these frankly disgusting crimes very seriously. The noble Lords, Lord Dubs and Lord Laming, drew our attention to the important distinction between smuggling and trafficking, and they are right. Today we are debating trafficking, although as the noble Lord, Lord Laming said, there is crossover between the two. He also took us harrowingly through Victoria Climbié’s experiences, which are still so vivid in our memories, and emphasised the importance of our urgent attention to this subject.
A major element of concern voiced by noble Lords today has been the decision not to opt in to the EU directive. I would be grateful if noble Lords would allow me to attempt to deal with that as comprehensively as I can later on.
First, as regards our overall approach, there can be no doubt that human trafficking of children and adults, whether for forced labour, prostitution, domestic servitude or any purpose, are appalling crimes in which people today are treated as commodities and exploited for profit. The Government take a comprehensive approach combining a determination to tackle the criminals behind the trade with a commitment to supporting victims. This approach is designed to provide the framework in which we can ensure the necessary joined-up activities. Through work across government with law enforcement agencies, including the police, the Serious Organised Crime Agency and the UK Border Agency, and in conjunction with the voluntary sector, which plays such an important role in the care of victims, we must, and I believe we will, make substantial further strides towards tackling this menace.
Several noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, and my noble friend Lady Benjamin, mentioned the need for public awareness, and their comments are well taken. I should also like to pay tribute to the several wonderful charities working in this area. Noble Lords have mentioned several and there are many more, all of which have highly dedicated people who are doing marvellous work. The Government recognise, and are grateful for, the huge benefits that they bring.
On enforcement, we already have legislation in place which outlaws trafficking and makes it an offence to pay for sexual services with someone who has been subject to exploitative conduct. This is backed by a robust policing and wider law enforcement response. My noble friend Lord McColl referred to what Sweden is doing and I can assure him that we are watching what is happening there, as in all member states, closely. Improving our knowledge and understanding of the problem is a key component to ensuring that our response is effective.
As my noble friend Lord Luke said, in August, the Association of Chief Police Officers produced a new study on the nature and scale of trafficking for sexual exploitation in England and Wales. It found that there are approximately 17,000 migrant sex workers in what is termed the “off-street” sector. Of these, at least 2,600 are trafficked and a further 9,600 migrant sex workers are vulnerable, which means that they have elements of vulnerability to trafficking. But most are likely to fall short of the trafficking threshold, which is the term for a combination of indicators, perhaps the most important of which is that the individual is being exploited. These figures and others quoted by noble Lords show why effective enforcement action is so vital.
Police forces are supported in this work by the United Kingdom Human Trafficking Centre, which plays a key role in providing operational co-ordination and advice to forces, including through its 24-hour tactical advice line. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, expressed concerns about the ability of the border police to stop trafficking at the border, emphasising the need to maintain enforcement activity across the whole country. That is part of the reason why the Government are committed to establishing the National Crime Agency, which will include the border police and is specifically committed to tackling organised crime.
The noble Lord, Lord Bew, referred to the situation in Northern Ireland. That trafficking is taken seriously there is perhaps demonstrated by the fact that, as I think he said, the Northern Ireland Assembly passed a Private Member’s Motion in September condemning the crime. The PSNI is active with other law enforcement agencies to recover victims and to secure convictions. Recently, it co-ordinated a UK-wide operation, which saw 15 potential victims of human trafficking recovered across the UK. It is as keen as anyone to make progress.
Within London, the Metropolitan Police Service has established the Human Exploitation and Organised Crime Unit within the Specialist Crime Directorate to lead on combating human trafficking gangs in London, particularly—I think that my noble friend Lord Luke and the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, asked about this—in the five Olympic boroughs during the build up to the London 2012 Games. The activities of the Metropolitan Police in those boroughs provide an outstanding example of the very determined work that they are undertaking to ensure that the Games are not plagued by such crime and that those who seek to force women into prostitution will be met with the full force of the law.
My noble friend Lord Avebury asked, among other things, whether the UKHTC maintains a database of cases that can be referred to by the police and the CPS to help them to decide on the most appropriate charge. From 1 April 2010, all cases of human trafficking have been flagged electronically on the CPS case management system. These data are passed to the UKHTC on a regular basis to inform joint analysis. CPS electronic monitoring enables the capture of those cases where charges were changed following the first hearing or where trafficking cases proceeded on an offence other than trafficking. This will assist in identifying whether victims are dropping out of criminal proceedings or not supporting prosecutions. It will also provide indicators of any gaps in existing legislation that inhibit ability to bring a successful prosecution.
Care for victims was emphasised by many noble Lords. Ensuring that victims receive the protection they need and deserve is vital to our overall efforts at combating trafficking. As part of the implementation of the Council of Europe Convention, the National Referral Mechanism has been established to improve identification and protection of trafficking victims. Identified victims get an extendable 45-day recovery period and, in certain circumstances, a temporary residence permit. Victims are also entitled to accommodation, advocacy, counselling, medical care, legal advice, interpretative services and reintegration assistance if they return home.
The noble Baroness, Lady Massey, and the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, raised several issues about the organisation of our efforts to tackle child trafficking and care for the victims. Child trafficking is a form of child abuse and, in front-line policing terms, falls within the remit of police child protection work, in partnership with local authorities and children’s services. Responsibility for the care, protection and accommodation of child trafficking victims falls within the responsibilities of local authorities under the Children Acts of 1989 and 2004. Where a child is assessed as trafficked and therefore “in need”, a social worker is appointed—I think that the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, asked about this—and will be responsible for putting in place an individualised care plan, covering the full range of the child’s needs for accommodation, education and other support.
The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and others raised concerns about the NRM. We agree that we must continuously look to making improvements. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, specifically referred to training. A review of the NRM is being conducted. One of the key issues raised as part of that review has been a need to improve awareness of this process among the various authorities, including local authorities. We agree with that. Officials are working on the best ways to achieve this.
The noble Baroness, Lady Massey, also raised the type of accommodation provided. This will depend on the assessment of risk and the needs of the individual young person, together with the availability of accommodation locally. It might be in a children’s home for younger children or with a foster carer employed or engaged by the local authority. I should say that separated and vulnerable children from abroad enjoy exactly the same entitlements as all UK-born and resident children.
Local children’s services work in close co-operation with the police and the UK Border Agency to offer potentially trafficked children the necessary protection. At the border and within the UK, the UK Border Agency works closely with other statutory agencies, including the police and local authorities, to safeguard children. Arriving children and any accompanying adults are routinely interviewed at the port of entry. The UK Border Agency has for some time employed professional social workers who are available to give advice to UKBA staff on child welfare and child protection issues as they arise. As part of the NRM review officials are working to raise awareness of the NRM process which provides a mechanism to co-ordinate information and intelligence about a child’s needs.
Turning to international and European Union co-operation, human trafficking is very often a cross-border crime. So we must ensure that there is sufficient international co-operation between Governments and law enforcement agencies. The Government remain committed to improving that. Several if not most noble Lords have, understandably, raised the fact that the United Kingdom has decided not to opt in yet to the EU directive on trafficking in human beings. Noble Lords have raised a number of specific points on which they have concerns with this decision. Let me now attempt to address some of these and if I do not pick them all up I will write to noble Lords after the debate.
It is important to underline that although the decision is not to opt in at this stage, we will review the position when the directive is adopted. Furthermore, we continue actively to participate in the negotiations. Several noble Lords raised their understandable concerns regarding the prosecution of those who are trafficked, making the important point that the focus must be on identifying and prosecuting those who are doing the trafficking. We certainly agree with that. However, a blanket ban on prosecuting those who are arrested or apprehended by the police and who later disclose that they have been trafficked would be unlawful under the Prosecution of Offences Act 1985 which sets out the statutory obligations of the CPS. Specific guidance has been given to the CPS which requires prosecutors to review each case with a full analysis of the relevant facts and circumstances in a manner that is retrospective and case-specific, and which makes it clear that it is not in the public interest to bring charges against those who are coerced.
The matter of funding support for victims between the time they approach an NGO and when they are determined to be a victim was raised by, among others, my noble friend Lord McColl. As I have said, children have exactly the same entitlements as all UK born and resident children. Where potential adult victims who are without accommodation come to our attention, the appropriate authorities will work with NGOs to find interim accommodation until a decision about their status is made. Although the point has not been raised particularly by noble Lords, perhaps it is worth saying that we are compliant with the directive in this regard.
My noble friend Lord McColl said that the directive goes further than the convention on the requirement to provide “necessary” medical assistance to victims. I have been assured that all victims have access to full NHS care. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, my noble friend Lord McColl and other noble Lords raised the matter of a special representative or legal guardian for child victims in court proceedings. Such victims currently receive the services of an independent reviewer, and it is the view of the Government that the distinction between this and a special representative is a fine one. However, it would be shocking if there were local authorities who could not or did not provide an adequate service of this type. If noble Lords are able to make me aware of specific examples of failures in this area, I shall take them to the department.
Another issue raised by my noble friend Lord McColl is the requirement in the directive to appoint a rapporteur or equivalent mechanism. The United Kingdom has an Inter-Departmental Ministerial Group on Trafficking which the Government believe fulfils the function of a rapporteur and that scrutiny by this group satisfies the requirements as set out in the directive. In terms of data gathering, the UK Human Trafficking Centre acts as a central repository for intelligence and data on human trafficking.
Adopting the directive would require some of its measures to be enshrined in legislation. Noble Lords will be aware that the Government have a general rule that they are keen to avoid extra legislation where reasonably possible. We are of the view that what matters is whether we actually tackle this terrible crime properly. We take it very seriously indeed and believe we have the tools we need, but as I said earlier, although the decision is not to opt in at this stage, we will review the position when the directive is adopted. I also take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bew, about the moral message.
The UK has a strong record in the fight against trafficking and is compliant in both legislation and practice with most of what is required by the directive. It contains no operation or co-operation measures from which the UK would benefit. While it will indeed help to improve the way other EU states combat trafficking, it will make little difference to the way the UK does so. There are also risks that some of the concessions secured during the negotiations may be reversed by the European Parliament. By opting out now but reviewing our position when the directive is agreed, we can choose to benefit from being part of a directive that is helpful but avoid being bound by measures that are against our interests. Several noble Lords have asked for a meeting, and I should say that I will be delighted to meet interested Peers, should they wish.
I can assure my noble friend Lord Roberts of Llandudno and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that we are satisfied that our decision will not affect our relationship with other European Governments. The UK continues to play an active role in helping to improve EU-wide efforts to combat human trafficking. We will continue to work constructively with those in Europe on issues of mutual interest. We have, for example, contributed to the Stockholm Programme, which contains a commitment to fight trafficking among the EU’s priorities until 2014. We are also involved in a number of initiatives focused specifically on trafficking, for example, in improving data and sharing best practice. The importance of co-operation between our law enforcement agencies such as the Serious Organised Crime Agency and their European counterparts, including Europol and Frontex, will of course continue.
While I have attempted to highlight what has been achieved by the UK so far, the tasks ahead are certainly not easy. The very nature of this covert crime means that no one can be satisfied that it is totally under control. It is for this reason that we and all those involved in law enforcement and victim support must work relentlessly, and we need to keep under review all aspects of our work in this area. Noble Lords will be interested to know that my honourable friend the Minister for Immigration will shortly be announcing improvements in the ways we tackle these crimes.
Several noble Lords asked questions which I have not been able to answer adequately in the time allowed, and I hope they will appreciate that I felt it particularly important to attempt to explain the Government’s thinking about their decision not yet to opt in to the directive. If I may, I will write to them.
Baroness Massey of Darwen
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate. Diverse issues have been raised very passionately and with utter conviction, based on the experience of noble Lords around the Chamber. I hope that some useful follow-up will ensue from this short debate. It is an international and a domestic issue, and indeed there are questions about training, accommodation, identification, prosecutions and victim support.
I thank my noble friend Lord Hunt for his forceful and perceptive summary, and I thank the Minister both for discussions before the debate and his response during it. I know that he is concerned about this problem, and I respect his view. However, I have to say that I still cannot accept his explanation for not opting in to the European directive. It is a puzzling statement that will send negative signals around the voluntary sector and the parliamentary world when it is clear that we have done so much in the past to defend and protect the victims of trafficking. Now we seem to be saying that that is not important any more, and I urge the Government to think again. However, I welcome the Minister’s confirmation that he will hold a meeting with those noble Lords who are interested in the directive, and I look forward to it. I also look forward to the completion of the NRM review and to future collaboration. Again, I thank noble Lords for their participation.
Public Bodies: Reform
(14 years ago)
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Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made today in another place by my right honourable friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office, Mr Francis Maude. The Statement is as follows:
“Mr Speaker, this Government have taken decisive action to restore accountability and responsibility to public life. For too long this country has tolerated Ministers who duck the difficult decisions they were elected to make. For too long we have had too many unaccountable officials with a licence to meddle in people’s lives. For too long we have had quango pay spiralling out of control, so that seven people in the Audit Commission are paid over £150,000 a year at a time when the average civil servant is paid £23,000.
The landscape for public bodies needs radical reform to increase transparency and accountability, to cut out duplication of activity and to discontinue activities which are simply no longer needed. This morning, my Written Statement outlined the start of a process to curtail the quango state. I have led an intensive review into public bodies, subjecting each to four tests. The first is existential: does the body need to exist or its functions carried out at all? The answer to that question in some cases is no. For example, we decided that government did not need an independent body to deliberate on the purchase of wine. However, if, as in most cases, the body’s functions are deemed necessary, then we sought to establish whether these functions should properly be carried out at an arm’s length to government. If the body carries out a highly technical activity, or is required to be politically impartial, or needs to act independently to establish facts, then it is right for it to remain outside government. This is the case with bodies such as the OBR and Ofgem. However, any quango which does meet one of these tests will either be brought back into a government department, devolved to local authorities or its functions will be carried out by the private sector.
We have gone through an extensive process to determine the outcome of this review. Our first task was quite simply to identify how many quangos there are and what they do. It may sound absurd, but it was and it remains incredibly difficult to gain firm information on these bodies. Many do not publish accounts; there is no central list; and there are a myriad of different types, all with different statuses. The official list of NDPBs lists 679 bodies, excluding those in Northern Ireland, but that does not include non-ministerial departments, government-owned public corporations and trading funds. Our review covers 901 bodies and we believe this is the true extent of the landscape. I should stress that departmental agencies are not in scope. These are directly controlled by Ministers who are accountable to Parliament for what they do.
Once we had established the overall list, each department has gone through a rigorous process to determine whether each of their quangos meets any of these tests. The list I have published today is not complete; it is a work in progress. The House will note that a number of bodies are subject to a longer term review, such as the Children’s Commissioner or the Office for Fair Access. However, of the 901 bodies in the review, substantial reforms are proposed for over half. We propose that 192 will cease to be public bodies; 118 will be merged down to 57 bodies, removing wasteful and complicating duplication of effort; and 171 are proposed for substantial reform while retaining their current status.
For those bodies which we are abolishing, I should stress that in many cases this does not mean the end of the function. Abolishing the regional development agencies does not mean that we no longer care about promoting regional business but that we think it can be promoted in a better way. Since RDAs have been introduced, regional imbalances have got worse. The development agencies carried a staggering £212 million in administration costs. We believe that local businesses and local authorities are best placed to decide what they need, not highly paid executives imposed on them by government. An activity does not need an unaccountable bureaucratic structure in order to signify its importance; the exact converse is true. If something is important, then someone who is elected should make decisions about how it is done. This is why we are bringing a host of functions back into government, such as those of the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission and the Renewable Fuels Agency.
All remaining bodies will be subject to a rigorous triennial review to ensure that the previous pattern of public bodies often outliving the purpose for which they were established will not be repeated. They will be expected to become more open, accountable and efficient. I will give more detail on the new framework to the House in the new year.
All the changes proposed here will be delivered within departments’ spending review settlements. Those bodies whose status is being retained may be subject to further reforms following the spending review, in the same way as all other parts of the public sector.
I want to acknowledge the dedication and hard work of those who work in public bodies, and we are committed to working with chairs and chief executives of these bodies to ensure that change is conducted as fairly and as smoothly as possible. To enable these proposed changes, we will shortly introduce a public bodies Bill which will give Ministers power to make changes to named statutory bodies. Other forthcoming legislation, such as the education Bill and the localism Bill, will also be used to make changes directly.
I believe that these reforms are the first and necessary step to restoring proper democratic accountability to public life and signal a complete culture change in government, from one which ducks difficult decisions, is opaque and allows profligacy, inflated salaries and waste, to an administration which is open and transparent about what it does, takes responsibility for its actions and is mindful of every penny of taxpayers’ money. I commend them to the House”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for repeating the Statement. We believe it right that the work of non-departmental public bodies should be scrutinised and kept under review. Indeed, that is what the Labour Government were doing. We reduced the number of arm’s-length bodies and delivered record efficiency savings, but we did it as part of a considered, orderly approach, avoiding the massive disruption in stability which may result from the Government’s approach announced today.
Why is it being done? We heard from the Minister a number of reasons, but I would take him back to the announcement made round the Queen’s Speech 2010, when we were told it was to reduce the cost of bureaucracy and that savings of around £1 billion per year were anticipated. Since then there seems to have been a shift in emphasis; we are now told that the purpose is to increase accountability. Abolishing transparent independent bodies and bringing some of their functions into central government departments is not what I would describe as an increase in accountability. How is accountability increased by bringing these functions into virtually invisible units within large central government departments? How in future will we know what work is being done? How will the people doing it be held to account? I hope the Minister will be able to clarify that.
One reason for the stress on accountability is that the Government are nowhere near to the savings in expenditure that they thought they were going to get when they announced the policy. Where is the £1 billion per year savings that we were promised? In fact we were told this morning on the “Today” programme—not in Parliament—that saving money is not the principal objective. All the evidence suggests that it will cost more money than it saves in relation to a number of the organisations, among them the Audit Commission, the RDAs, the British Film Council and Standards for England. When you take account of the redundancy, relocation and retraining costs and the contracts which will have to be stopped midway, you can see that that is not surprising. What is the total cost of implementing these plans this year and next?
We support the drive for efficiency. However, let us look at the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, an internationally respected organisation which performs a very important role at modest cost. If we set that role against the cost of disruption to the organisation and its staff, we realise that transferring its functions to another regulator is surely not worth doing. I also suggest that it shows some disrespect to this House. I would remind the Minister of the debates that we held early in the decade when this House agreed to extend the research purposes to which the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority could give approval. One of the key reasons why, after a seven-hour debate, this House agreed to the extension was the respect in which we hold the HFEA, its integrity and its robustness. We throw that reputation away at our peril. What does the Minister have to say to his noble friend Lord Willis, who pointed out in Oral Questions yesterday that,
“as the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, said ... the fact [is] that we enshrine in legislation and through regulation the very special status of the embryo. Since 1991, the HFEA has carried out that function very effectively indeed and it has done so because it has the support of the British people”.—[Official Report, 13/10/10; col. 512.]
There are similar points to be made about other organisations. What will be put in place of the General Teaching Council? There was a general welcome for the establishment of a professional body of regulation for the teaching profession. When its abolition was announced in the other place by Mr Michael Gove, he was unable to answer questions about how a replacement structure would be put in place. It is right that the Minister should tell us today.
Why do the Government wish to abolish the Health Protection Agency? Its role is to provide an integrated approach to protecting UK public health, including the provision of independent scientific advice to government. The problem is that the Government intend to pull the work of the HPA inside the Department of Health. They will also bring a number of other independent expert advisory bodies within the department. Much though I respect the Department of Health, the fact is that independent scientific advice is sometimes uncomfortable to Ministers. Will the scientific advice now being brought inside the department be made publicly available? Will it be known to Parliament if Ministers disagree with the advice?
The abolition of the UK Film Council has caused great concern among leading film makers. What will be the cost in terms of lost experts? I also question the uncertainty being caused by the review of CAFCASS when we know that it is under considerable pressure in supporting children. What about Consumer Focus? My experience at the Department of Energy and Climate Change was that it had a valuable role to play in bringing forward concerns among consumers in matters to do with energy. We are told that its role is to be taken over by the citizens advice bureaux, but the CAB does a very different job. Are the current responsibilities, powers, duties and functions of Consumer Focus to be transferred lock, stock and barrel to the citizens advice bureaux?
The Statement referred to regional development agencies. I know from living in Birmingham, in the West Midlands, that there is great concern about the loss of the RDAs. They have done fantastically valuable work. Local enterprise partnerships will simply not have the budgets, nor will they be up to the task. It is already clear that, in the West Midlands, the Black Country is to be split off from Birmingham, creating two separate local enterprise partnerships. That is a crazy decision which will break up the cohesion that we have seen in the past few years.
What is the job impact of these decisions on the regions? I hope the Minister will be able to tell me. What has happened to the quangos that were promised in the Conservative Party manifesto? We have heard a lot today about the iniquities of these bodies, and some of their officials, too, but what about the 20 new quangos promised by the Conservative Party? Can the Minister confirm that those quangos will now not go ahead?
Very little detail is given in the Statement about the proposals. Nothing is said about actual amounts of money, either costs or savings. Nothing is said about the impact on jobs. I suggest to the Minister that, in respect of each public body that is being abolished or changed, the Government should provide a statement showing which activities are going to be carried out in the future, which will be transferred to another body, how many full-time equivalent staff will be saved and how much money will be saved. It is also very important that, before legislation reaches us, there should be an early opportunity for the House to discuss these matters in full. I hope he will encourage the House authorities to allow us to have a full debate on these matters.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I thank the noble Lord for his thoughtful comments and questions on these reforms, as well as for his general support for the government strategy, which is, after all, to review non-departmental public bodies. As he rightly pointed out, the Government of whom he was a member were doing that, too.
I should assure the House that this review is essentially, and has always been, about accountability. I answered a question here not so very long ago about what was going on in the review and I made it clear that the three tests have mattered more than anything else. That is why I am not in a position to give noble Lords detailed answers on the budgetary implications of the changes; that will all become part of the spending review which we anticipate next week.
The noble Lord had me thumbing through my briefing given the multiplicity of bodies that he mentioned. I shall do my best to answer him. If I fail to do so and drop a catch, I shall write to him and put a copy in the Library.
On the RDAs, we will just have to agree to disagree, because the Government see it differently. The noble Lord rightly pointed to the RDAs as effective articulators of a regional voice. The local enterprise partnerships are likely to be even more effective in identifying and articulating local needs than the existing RDAs. It is an unassailable point that regional differences in this country have increased during the time in which RDAs have been in existence. It is a matter of opinion, but I am giving your Lordships the Government’s opinion, which I support.
Each of these bodies is staffed and supported by people who are passionate and knowledgeable about the particular work that they do. Such passion is admirable, but it can lead to mission creep. Noble Lords will have noted that in a number of instances. A body or committee is set up to meet a pressing or current need but, once it is in existence, it finds new work for itself. Each of these small changes are in themselves rational and well meaning but, over time, they can result in a huge number of similar bodies, as noble Lords can see from the list today, with many overlapping or even duplicating functions. It is simply good government to keep the tendency for mission creep and duplication in check.
Moreover we need to ensure that there is direct accountability to elected politicians for tough decisions. The noble Lord said that he could not see how bringing an organisation into the department would increase accountability. I would have thought that this House is very good at making departments accountable by bringing Ministers to the Dispatch Box to account for activities within their departments. In truth, many of these bodies will not have had a single question asked about them during the time of their existence. They are obscure. This will make Parliament the forum in which all government activity can be challenged, and rightly so.
We need to take stock from time to time and see if the right tasks are being performed by the right people. The need to reduce the spending deficit provides an added emphasis to the task, but that is not necessarily the prime mover for the way in which this particular review has been undertaken.
I will go through one or two of the points made by the noble Lord. He talked about the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. He might also have mentioned the Human Tissue Authority, which is a similar body facing a similar absorption into a more general health and science-based review body. The creation of the Care Quality Commission has given Parliament the opportunity to achieve that. As my noble friend said yesterday, the HFEA has achieved the regard of the public and Parliament, but that does not mean that we should not review its scope and activity and look for a better way of doing what it does. That is exactly why we have looked at all these bodies and are presenting changes to the House. Change is not something to be feared. It is a challenge, but it does not mean deterioration, as some cynics have suggested. The cost of the changes will be met within departmental limits set out in the spending review.
The noble Lord asked about the General Teaching Council for England. There is a review of all the teaching bodies that are designed to maintain standards of teaching in the UK. Within the context of that change, it is believed that the General Teaching Council for England will disappear. That is not to say that the function it was performing was of no value. The same applies to Consumer Focus. Consumer Focus will be absorbed into the citizens advice bureaux, which are highly regarded public bodies with which the public relate and can identify. Although Consumer Focus has done good things, it can be replaced by the CAB and can strengthen the CAB without diluting consumer interests. It is right to do that.
The noble Lord asked for more time and deliberation—for specific conclusions on the detail, where staff will move and how functions will be delivered. We cannot have this both ways. There are proposals setting out clear intentions on accountability to be delivered by departments with staff and stakeholders. The previous Government set out their own programme of changes to 123 arm’s-length bodies. At least 50 of those proposed for consultation are within our listings. We are reforming 480 and are committed to making that happen. I hope that the noble Lord is reassured by the Government’s determination to focus on this issue both for the sake of accountability and for the sake of efficiency and good government.
Lord Fowler
My Lords, I support the general policy put forward by my noble friend, but I want to ask about broadcasting policy, which is dealt with in this paper. What duties are being removed from Ofcom as proposed in the paper? In particular, why has the opportunity not been taken to abolish the unnecessary BBC Trust, which has few friends inside or outside the BBC, and certainly qualifies for inclusion? Why are we not bringing private investment into BBC Worldwide, which must be to the benefit of that company and was even supported by the previous Government?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The noble Lord makes some useful suggestions for the ongoing process of the review and I am grateful to him for them. They are not covered within the existing programme of change, but the Government intend to continue to test all government bodies against their standards. I note my noble friend’s comments and I am sure that I can take them back.
Lord Borrie
In light of the well-publicised speech during the summer by the right honourable Vince Cable on the disastrous situation that would come about if capitalism were to be completely unrestrained, is not the proposal to abolish the Competition Commission astonishing? It is true that the Statement says that it will be merged with the Office of Fair Trading, but over the past 50 years in which the present system for advancing competition has been in force, with the Office of Fair Trading, the Competition Commission formerly the Monopolies Commission and the Government, it has generally been accepted that the system is fair, just and effective. I mention fairness because the word is so important today. The Office of Fair Trading and the Competition Commission are separate and not merged together because the more aggressive body, the Office of Fair Trading, makes prosecutorial propositions against a merger of two companies, for example, and the Competition Commission can then judicially and impartially judge between them.
The Statement emphasises the matter of political impartiality. The reason for the whole set-up dealing with competition policy, to which all parties have adhered for 50 years, is that there should be political impartiality when it comes to individual decision-making about company mergers or the restrictive practices of a particular company. They should not be subject to party-political pressure. Surely, the Minister would agree.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I understand the noble Lord’s experience in these matters and respect it greatly. There is a view, which the Government hold, that there is duplication between these two bodies, which has led to unnecessary duplication of effort. The merger of the two bodies will make them more efficient. There will be ongoing consultation on the way in which this merger will take place and how the new body will be structured in order to make it effective. I am grateful for the noble Lord's comments. They will be taken on board.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, is the Minister aware that there will be widespread support for what is contained in the Statement about retaining the Equality and Human Rights Commission but radically reforming it? Is he aware, too, that the independence guarantees, which I personally persuaded the previous Government to write into the Equality Act 2006, were not meant to produce a situation of irresponsibility? Will he ensure that Ministers and civil servants bring home to the chairman and commissioners that they will no longer receive grants in aid unless they can demonstrate value for money in advance of the grants and not only by some kind of ex post facto review?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I thank my noble friend for his comments. Widespread concern has been expressed in the press about the Equality and Human Rights Commission and its role. We are proposing to retain it, precisely because we believe that a regulator is needed to help to enforce the laws governing equality and anti-discrimination. But we believe that the EHRC’s remit is too wide and that it has not always been well managed. That is why we are proposing substantially to reform it.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
I declare an interest as the chair of the Legal Services Consumer Panel. We had no advance notice of this; there was an e-mail at 9.36 this morning to one of my staff—not to me—alerting us, not in the published list but in the question and answers that Ministers were given as their brief, that the Government were minded to merge the panel in with Citizens Advice. Is that the normal courtesy that you would have for an organisation that you wish to merge?
On the issue itself, the Legal Services Consumer Panel was set up with the complete support of this House as part of the Legal Services Act. It is, of course, funded by lawyers—and I thank the many lawyers here for the funding. It is accountable to the users of legal services and is wholly different from Citizens Advice. It advises the regulator on behalf of the users of legal services on how best to regulate, which is an utterly different role from that of Citizens Advice. Was there any logical thinking in putting this measure not in the published list but in the attachment, then not telling us, as well as the unusual history with Citizens Advice?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I think I can explain. As the noble Baroness said, the Government are minded but have not made a decision. There is no doubt that she will have plenty of opportunity to consult the Government and the body will be able to discuss the matter with the Government. So there is no specific proposal, but the Government are minded to merge.
Lord Harries of Pentregarth
My Lords, in his response to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, the Minister mentioned the HFEA and the Human Tissue Authority in the same sentence, implying that they were comparable. Will he kindly bear in mind that, a few years ago, an attempt was made to bring together these two bodies, and they were actually found to be incompatible? It cost a lot of money to bring them together and then to rend them apart again. We are all sympathetic in this House to trying to cut costs. However, I wrote to the Minister pointing out that, with regard to the HFEA, there are other, quicker ways in which to save money, rather than going through the whole expensive business of setting up, dismembering and then trying to integrate with new bodies.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I thank the noble and right reverend Lord for putting the decision in context. Indeed, the two bodies are entirely separate, but the proposal is to treat them in the same way, by merging them into a third body within the existing healthcare bodies. That is why I referred to them together.
Lord Crickhowell
My Lords, one has only to look at the list of bodies to see that the review was badly needed, and I welcome the fact. However, I pick on two bodies answerable to Defra—Natural England and the Environment Agency. It is quite a long time since I handed over responsibility for the National Rivers Authority, which became absorbed into the Environment Agency, but I cannot help being struck by the strength of the criticism contained in the commentary here. It says:
“Reform through structural, process and cultural change to become a more efficient and customer focused organisation; and clarify accountabilities”.
It is of great urgency that we should have early on a detailed statement of what those criticisms are and what it is proposed that we should do about them. I cannot think of anything much more damaging for an important organisation than to have this kind of description hanging over it without clarification of what is supposed to have gone wrong. In view of the fact that the body has been answerable to Defra since it came into being, and that Defra supervised how it was set up, one wonders why it has got into a state that deserves such criticism and whether Defra is in fact the best body to sort out the mess that apparently exists.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My noble friend need have no concerns on this matter, because Defra is well aware of the difficulties of these two bodies. They have suffered from mission creep, and within their budgets there will be a redefining of their role, which is very important. There will be plenty of opportunity because the Secretary of State will, indeed, be making announcements on these bodies in due course.
Lord Boateng
My Lords, the Caribbean Board is to be abolished, which will be of considerable—
Baroness Gould of Potternewton
I apologise to my noble friend, but I am the chair of two organisations that have been purged today, so I feel I must express my views. One of the organisations will become an advisory stakeholder group, and we might well be able to work with that. We have had lots of discussion on how that is going to happen. The other organisation, which is the only national body in this country and the whole of the UK responsible for gender, is being abolished with absolutely nothing to say that it will be replaced. It will be abolished full stop, and its work will go into the department. I want to know how the 620 organisations that belonged to the Women’s National Commission will have a voice direct to the Government, and how they will have a voice when they disagree with government. The commission has very often acted as a caveat, being able to co-ordinate the voice of women to government. I have not yet received any answers on that point.
The whole process has been absolutely diabolical. I have not received a single piece of paper until today, when I had an e-mail message from the Secretary of State that told me that we were no longer going to exist. I have had a couple of conversations with the director of the Government Equalities Office, but not one of our commissioners has. There has been no transparency in the process whatever. We have not been told at all why the three points—although it says four in the document—that we were asked to put to the Cabinet Office have not been responded to. They were put through the GEO, but we have had no response as to why it was decided that we did not qualify on any one of those three points. The whole process has been rushed and, quite honestly, if it could be done, might be subject to a judicial review. There has been no stakeholder involvement in the decisions that this Government have taken.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I am sorry to have to disagree with the noble Baroness. Some of these decisions have had to be made by government, and we take full responsibility for making them. Consultations were done with each department, and each department was responsible for ascertaining from all these bodies their capacity to meet the tests that have been set. Discussions have thus been taking place within departments and I am quite surprised to hear from the noble Baroness that she has not been aware of the discussions going on in this field, because I know that she is very much involved in these things. Concerning the women’s commission, we are really keen to move away from the idea of having a single body to voice women’s issues. Women should actually be engaged in all public bodies and articulating their views across Government.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
At a similar point in a prior Administration, I was ministerially responsible for a department with 43 non-departmental public bodies. I received a Cabinet Office instruction almost to double the proportion of women on those boards within a matter of months. That order could have been carried out to the letter either by greatly raising the number of women board members or by conducting a massacre of male innocents on their own quarter-decks. At some risk to my own quarter-deck, I minuted back about which course I was to follow. Can my noble friend give an assurance that a competent mathematician will proof-read any similar instructions before they are sent out this time?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I cannot guarantee the standards of proof-reading or mathematical skills, but I am sure that we have a highly skilled Civil Service and that no instruction will go out which is neither numerate nor literate.
Baroness Verma
My Lords, perhaps the Cross Benches can come in and then the noble Lord.
Baroness Prashar
I stepped down as chairman of the Judicial Appointments Commission after my five-year term at the end of September. Thankfully, that commission is to be retained. However, the body was set up five years ago to enhance the independence of the judiciary and to make the process for selecting judges more open and transparent. We are of course accountable to Parliament through making an annual report to the Lord Chancellor.
The process for determining the review was less than transparent and the communication could have been better. Of course, there are second-order things in terms of efficiency which can be dealt with through a constructive dialogue between the chair, the chief executive and the commissioners, but the uncertainty still hangs about the type of reform. That kind of uncertainty, which causes a distraction from your core function, leads to waste. I suggest that it would be helpful to get some indication that there is some efficiency in how the actual reviews are conducted, that a distinction can be made between the types of quangos that are being put under review and the ones that are being retained and that those decisions will be communicated quickly to those concerned.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The noble Baroness makes valuable points and I take them on board. There is an ongoing review and dialogue concerning the Judicial Appointments Commission, because it is very important that this body achieves the high objectives which the noble Baroness has laid down for it. The Lord Chancellor is in regular contact with the Lord Chief Justice. The review’s aims will be to ensure a balance between the executive, the judiciary and independent responsibilities and, indeed, to ensure transparency and openness. I hope that reassures the noble Baroness.
Lord Boateng
My Lords, the Caribbean Board is to be abolished. That will be of real concern to the peoples of the Caribbeans and to all their friends, on all sides of the House and in the country. How is the profile of small island dependencies to be represented across Government, involving DfID, the FCO and the other government departments together with the wider diaspora community? These island dependencies, which have been neglected in the past, see themselves as neglected and will now see themselves relegated to the same league as the Government’s advisory board on wines—although even that function is not to be abolished.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I am sorry, my Lords, but the truth of the matter is that the Government have taken the view that the Caribbean islands which are dependencies will have access to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and to DfID and, indeed, that they do not need the Caribbean Board to speak on their behalf. That is a judgment that the Government have made on this issue.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, can the Minister please explain further the process that each department has gone through to make these decisions? His Statement was exceptionally light in that respect. In abolishing the Appointments Commission, will he underline the process that will be in place to ensure fairness in future appointments?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The Appointments Commission is not abolished, but perhaps I may explain that the process has been one of a dialogue between the Cabinet Office, the Minister for the Cabinet Office and the Secretaries of State of each department. As I said in the Statement, identifying non-governmental public bodies has not been easy. There is no central list, so each department was asked to identify the public bodies within its remit, then to apply the three tests which I explained to the House in repeating the Statement and the fourth test of the justification for its continued role and purpose.
Apprenticeships
Baroness Wall of New Barnet
To call attention to the case for maintaining and increasing apprenticeships in both the public and private sectors; and to move for papers.
Baroness Wall of New Barnet
My Lords, I am delighted to have the opportunity to open this important debate on apprenticeships. What, at heart, is an apprenticeship for? It is meant to take an individual to an entirely new level of skills and competence through a coherent programme of study and practice. It should provide a company with a skilled employee who has demonstrably developed their abilities. Indeed, businesses such as BAE Systems and Airbus tell me that apprenticeships are critical to meeting their future skill needs. An apprenticeship should give an individual a broad base of useful skills, specific competencies in a technical area and the wider attributes that we call employability. That makes a firm foundation for a career and for progression, if they wish.
I shall focus on the engineering apprenticeship scheme. The scheme is very popular, yet employers still face practical barriers when considering whether to start or increase their participation. Most of these barriers are more commonly cited by small firms, but some are cited by larger companies. What the barriers have in common is that they can in some way be addressed by the Government, funding, employers and sector bodies all working together. I shall address how we can help employers to overcome these current barriers before concluding with some thoughts on the future of apprenticeships. I declare an interest, as I work with Semta, the sector skills council for science, engineering and manufacturing technologies, which is closely involved with the employers in this scheme.
The first barrier is cost. Employers of engineering apprentices will tell you that it costs them a lot to recruit and train their apprentices. An advanced engineering apprenticeship costs the employer a great deal in terms of salary and supervision, even when the actual training costs are covered by public funding. BAE Systems estimates that it costs it £73,000 to train an apprentice on top of government funding. That is a big commitment even for a large organisation, but small firms can find it a particularly difficult barrier to surmount.
The price of an apprenticeship is a reflection of its rigour and content. We can, of course, always look at how to deliver the content at lower cost, using new technology such as e-learning, where appropriate, and maximising economies of scale. Engineering apprentices are paid very well compared to apprentices in other sectors and, indeed, in other countries. That pay reflects their value to the employer and the demands of the framework; it is not and should not be easily changed.
A second barrier for employers is time. The advanced engineering framework usually takes 42 months to complete—a significant time commitment to ask of a company. Some feel that they cannot see that far into the future when planning their training. Semta has done a lot of work on fast-tracking for apprentices, particularly those who are already in the workforce and have achieved a certain level of skill. For adults on an apprenticeship programme, certain elements can be shortened by accrediting prior knowledge. However, all the businesses that I have talked to say that it is imperative that the outcomes are the same, no matter the age of the individual on the programme. Thankfully, we have moved away from the time-served approach to apprenticeship, where people were believed to have completed an apprenticeship simply by working with an expert for a given period of time. Instead, apprentices must now demonstrate their competence against national standards, which has led to a far more rigorous and effective programme.
The third barrier relates to the company’s ability to deal with the paperwork and reporting involved. Apprenticeship frameworks that attract public funding must of course be accountable for, and transparent about, that income. It can be confusing for companies to deal with the necessary paperwork, particularly if they have not offered apprenticeships before. The running of an apprenticeship scheme also requires a great deal of management, not just of the paperwork to get the funding but also of the programme itself. Airbus tells me that ensuring that the apprentice is receiving the right training at the right time, achieving all the necessary milestones and taking on the right roles as they become more competent needs someone checking on their progress and addressing any issues.
This is an area where the engineering sector has led the way in its approach. Many years ago, group training associations were set up by groups of small firms getting together to run apprenticeships and other training schemes. The GTA handles the funding contract and manages the schemes itself. It provides member companies with an invaluable service. The local GTA can manage the recruitment of the apprentice, which is vital for small firms seeking a person who is good and a good fit for their business and for the investment that they are making. The GTA can also work with the local college to ensure that all the off-the-job elements of the framework meet the employer’s needs and that the apprentice is fulfilling their true potential on the programme.
Another approach has seen large companies helping their supply chain companies by training for stock. Whenever funding has permitted, this has been embraced. This has meant the large firm taking on extra apprentices, who then find places in smaller companies in their supply chains. Large companies welcome this opportunity, as it enables them to boost the skills of their partner companies, while the apprentices have the opportunity to experience the breadth of activity that a large firm undertakes.
A barrier that has certainly impacted on some companies in the past is the quality of applicants that they have received for apprenticeship places. While large companies are usually able to fill their vacancies with excellent people, smaller firms have sometimes struggled to find the right person to become an apprentice. This has been linked to poor careers advice given to young people, who have been led to believe that low academic achievement and poor attitude are no barrier to entering an apprenticeship programme. For engineering this is simply not the case and companies can waste a lot of time removing unsuitable candidates from the recruitment process.
In recent years, thankfully, that barrier has reduced in impact, as more young people seriously consider alternatives to the costs and career progression for full-time academic study post-16 and post-18. Businesses such as BAE Systems have seen many high-quality applicants apply—so much so that the company is now supporting typically 10 per cent of its apprentices on completion to take university degrees.
With cost, time, the need to run the framework to a certain standard and the quality of applicants identified as barriers, is the answer to make apprenticeships shorter and cheaper, to make them less accountable to national standards and to reduce entry requirements? I fear that that seems to be the situation that some are facing at the moment.
Pressure on funding has resulted in Semta facing risks to the content of its framework. It has been told that key elements of the framework—namely, the initial training done by all apprentices through a national vocational qualification called performing engineering operations—cannot now form part of the framework. Removing this essential introduction to safe working in engineering environments and to basic engineering skills would damage the engineering apprenticeship immeasurably. Employers are simply not in a position to fund this element themselves for every apprentice whom they recruit. The argument is that this NVQ, which is taken in addition to the NVQ in the specific engineering discipline of the apprentice, is somehow surplus to requirements. This shows a lack of understanding of the true nature and purpose of apprenticeships, as well as a failure to appreciate how the current structure is designed to be a coherent basis for progression and a sustainable career. It also demonstrates that there are currently pressures on sector skills councils to somehow compromise on the content of their frameworks, which they have developed with employers.
Up to this point, I have highlighted some areas where practical barriers can be reduced without compromising the quality. I will now move on to the philosophical barrier that is at the heart of ensuring that apprenticeships remain the right programmes for individuals and companies. We must not see apprenticeships as a panacea for all skills problems in the workplace. It is important that employers understand what an apprenticeship will deliver for them and that they do not enter into a scheme without knowing the full implications. Advice to employers needs to be clear and needs to explain that, if what they are offering is not an apprenticeship, they should understand that that is not what they are doing and that, rather, they require something else.
Semta works hard to make the engineering apprenticeship framework fit for purpose, but that purpose is not to provide cheap labour for companies or to string together an incoherent set of units and call it an apprenticeship. In some ways, the size and rigour of the engineering apprenticeship could be called a barrier to its expansion, but the quality of the framework is one of its great selling points to both the individual and companies. I accept that to compromise this might bring in some short-term increases in participation, but it would soon result in a lower standard that did not give the business the full range of skills that it requires or give the individual the mobility within the company or outside it. Additionally, it would cheat the future economy of the United Kingdom of a skilled person who could contribute fully.
Apprenticeships have predominantly been used for young people who are usually new entrants to a sector and an occupation. However, it has been found that, when the funding for adult apprenticeships was available, there was a huge appetite among people over 25 and their employers to use the apprenticeship programme to boost the skills of the existing workforce. This is because the framework can be used to raise the skills of those already in the workforce who need to boost their competence and who can benefit from a comprehensive programme of development.
What is an apprenticeship not suitable for? It is not, as I have said, for companies wishing to recruit cheap labour for jobs that do not require a minimum level of skills. It is also not for adults who need only a few elements of the programme to enable them to reskill or upskill. For these people, we must make sure that the qualifications and curriculum framework provide opportunities for funding and accessing bite-sized learning, tailored to the prior knowledge of the individual so that they are not repeating what they already know. This is not an apprenticeship, though; it is still valuable, but it is different.
Maintaining the apprenticeship brand by ensuring the quality is the single most important thing we can do to safeguard the programme for the future. Doing so will ensure that we can get the right people on to an increasing number of these schemes. Only then can we be confident that great apprentices will continue to contribute to the wealth of the country, that companies will have the right people to grow their business in the future and that young people and older people will be able to contribute to the community and to the businesses that they work with. I beg to move.
Lord Sugar
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Wall for bringing this debate to the House; it is on a topic in which I have a great interest. At the tail-end of 2008 I was invited by the Government to head an advertising campaign to promote apprenticeships. Before agreeing to do so, I decided to research the message that needed to be projected. I concluded that the campaign needed to be directed at employers as well as prospective apprentices. It was clear to me that there was a lack of understanding as to what was on offer to both the employer and the employee.
In the early part of 2009 the campaign went to air and created a lot of interest. Hits to the apprenticeship website rose from 52,000 to 120,000 per week. There were also 4,000 firm inquires. It is important to note that back in 1997 there were just 60,000 apprenticeships but by May 2009 there were 250,000. Encouragingly, there was a completion rate of 70 per cent. This is an undisputed statistic, and the rise came about under the previous Government. I have heard that the pre-election promise of the current Government—pledging 400,000 apprenticeships over the next two years—has been somewhat watered down. We have to avoid by all means undoing all the hard work of the past. Any proposed government cuts should not be directed at this sector. Indeed, cutting funding for training would repeat the mistakes made during the last recession.
In 2009 I held four seminars on apprenticeships, where I spoke to audiences of employers in London, Birmingham, Leeds and Newcastle. At these meetings the frequent comment from employers was that they would employ more apprentices if the Government gave them some financial incentive. While I could not agree with them at those meetings at the time, I now have to admit that I agree with them. Now, the money provided by the Government to pay for the training of apprentices goes to fund colleges and so-called learning providers. While I believe that these establishments are needed to a certain extent, to cater for such things as day release, I question full-time training courses in manufacturing or any other physical skill trade.
I am confident that what I am about to say will be not be disputed by any of your Lordships. No matter what professions your Lordships embarked on, and what academic qualifications you attained, I am sure you will agree that you gained virtually all your knowledge and experience by working in your chosen occupation. Therein lies the key to where any government funding must go. We must encourage employers to train people. To do that, they have to employ them. In any industry that requires skills, be it manufacturing, building or software development, there is a need to grow your own labour force to make sure that the staff are instilled with your firm’s culture and, more to the point, loyalty.
However, I say now what others might be frightened of admitting; while it is important to train staff to grow a future workforce, the reality is that every person you train requires an experienced member of staff to mentor them. From my own companies, experience has shown that to do it properly the mentor has to devote a lot of time to the individual before he or she can be let loose, so to speak. The fact is that while members of staff are mentoring, they cannot do their own jobs fully. Therefore, training the newcomer does not just cost the salary that you are paying, albeit at the minimum wage. More importantly, there is the cost of the loss of the time of experienced staff. So your Lordships might see why employers are saying, “Okay, we will take on and train young people, but we want you—the Government—to pay us or compensate us in some way”. In this day and age, when most businesses have to tighten their belts to fight their way out of recession, they can ill afford to have their staff deflected.
Trust me when I say that, from my experience of taking on young people from college or other so-called training facilities, when they enter my company they really know nothing. In my experience they learn while they earn. I conclude that young people will get far more satisfaction and motivation from working in a firm than from sitting in a classroom, theorising. The Government need to think hard about how they can divert money from training facilities to employers. After all, some of these training facilities are not government-owned; they simply send the Government a bill for every apprentice who passes through their hands. There are people in the Government who are clever enough to work out ways either to create tax breaks or to award grants to companies, small and large, instead of what I consider to be blowing the money on these so-called further education facilities.
Let us look at what is happening instead. Right now the Government and the taxpayer are playing out something of a charade by providing a place for young people to hide for a while. The Government are giving money to training providers to avoid the embarrassment of having people out on the street. In reality, all they are doing is delaying the inevitable because the end product in many cases is still unemployable and unskilled. The young people will have greater dignity if they are taken into a firm and given a real goal to aim for but do not expect the firms to do it for nothing. While they may get the benefit of a trained employee eventually, anyone who says that an apprenticeship means cheap labour is totally deluded.
I see that I am not out of time, so I will throw in a last curve ball on a completely different subject. One final thing that the Government might do to promote apprenticeships is to ensure, by way of contractual agreement, that firms that are awarded government contracts must employ a proportion of apprentices.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wall, for initiating this important debate. I declare an interest as a member of the corporation of Guildford College and as a member of the Skills Commission, an all-party group composed of Members of Parliament and lay members.
As the noble Lord, Lord Sugar, has indicated, many of us learn as much by doing as by listening. Apprenticeships remain probably the most effective way of passing on complex practical skills. In this country we have a long tradition of craft skills. It goes back to the Middle Ages and the concepts of guilds, master craftsmen, journeymen and apprentices. In those days the apprentice was treated very much as the son of the master craftsman. He was mentored, as the noble Lord, Lord Sugar, indicated, and taken within the family of the learning group. Sadly, that tradition was lost in this country during the Industrial Revolution. It was retained in some craft skills. This House is probably a tribute to the craft skills of the mid-Victorian era. In the mass production industries, the sheer brutality of the Industrial Revolution led to the loss of the master-child relationship that one saw in the concept of apprentices. Interestingly, in Germany and many north European countries, which were industrialised later, it was retained. The tradition of training apprentices, as we all know, remained in those countries and is one that we now look to as an example of what we might follow.
Even within mass production, of course, the craft skills—the more skilled members of the industry—were trained through apprenticeships right through to the 1950s and 1960s. Many of our leading industrialists entered industry through this route and moved first into middle management and subsequently into top management through the apprenticeship route. However, this route collapsed with the collapse of manufacturing industry in this country in the 1970s and the 1980s. Its nadir was reached in the 1990s. As the noble Lord, Lord Sugar, mentioned, in 1997, only 60,000 young people entered apprenticeships.
We need to pay tribute to the previous Government for what they did. It began with the report from Sir John Cassels in 1995 and the introduction of the modern apprenticeship, and moved forward very positively under the new Labour Government of 1997. The modern apprenticeship was originally aimed at a level 3 qualification, which is equivalent to A-level, but I rather regret that the concept of the modern apprenticeship was watered down. In 2001 it became a level 2 qualification, equivalent to GCSE, and the level 3 apprenticeship was renamed the advanced apprenticeship. In 2001, approximately 150,000 young people entered apprenticeships. Today, the figure is almost 250,000 young people—an increase of roughly 100,000 over that period—and more are coming through, although the increase is not very large. Interestingly enough, 100,000 young people aged 16 to 18 are now entering apprenticeships—85,000 in the 19-to-24 age group and 56,000 in the 25-plus age group. Over the past few years, since the beginning of the recession in 2007, numbers in that 16-to-18 group have remained very much the same, but we have seen—partly because government money has been available—a very substantial increase in the number of those over 19, and particularly in the over-25s, in the past few years, which I very much welcome. I know that employers are keen to foster this. However, we are, of course, still a long way off the 400,000 target set out in the Leitch report. As I say, in many senses the recession has set back the whole process.
I am pleased that this Government share the previous Government’s view of the importance of apprenticeships and, indeed, the importance of their being employer-based. One of the first acts of this Government was to shift £150 million from Train to Gain into adult apprenticeships, which indicates how important they regard the whole area as being. My honourable friend John Hayes, the Minister for Skills, said:
“The most important objective of all is to make Apprenticeships the primary, though I must stress not the only, means for people to gain skills in the workplace ... the Government is committed to increasing the supply of Apprenticeships, and improving the quality of the training offered, to make them better suited to the needs of employers and learners alike”.
I wish to raise three issues about the development of apprenticeships. My first issue has been referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Wall, and the noble Lord, Lord Sugar, and concerns the supply of apprenticeships and the degree to which employers are willing to take on apprentices, particularly those in the 16-to-18 age group. The CBI and the British Chambers of Commerce complain about skills shortages, and indeed about the immigration cap on skilled people, but their own record in training across industry as a whole leaves something to be desired.
There are, of course, outstanding examples of good training provision such as that provided by Rolls-Royce and BAE Systems. It is interesting to note that there are 15,000 applicants for the approximately 80 places on offer at BAE Systems. It is more difficult to get an apprentice place at BAE Systems than it is to get into Oxford or Cambridge. As the noble Lord, Lord Sugar, and the noble Baroness, Lady Wall, mentioned, the bureaucracy puts off a lot of small and medium-sized businesses. The previous Government and this Government are exploring the development of group training associations to help with that problem. I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Sugar, when I say that, as well as companies offering apprenticeships, let us also see the growth of apprenticeships in the public sector. This initiative was begun by the previous Government and I hope that this Government will carry it forward.
My second issue concerns careers guidance. As I say, I have been a member of the Skills Commission for some time. A couple of years back, it produced a report on apprenticeships. We were horrified to discover from the Edge survey that a typical teacher had very little concept of what apprenticeships were about. To a great extent, teachers in secondary education go from school into college and back into teaching in schools and have no experience of the outside world. The Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 contains a section that was debated at length in this House and required that all young people should get a broad careers education and that they should be told specifically about apprenticeships. I gather that the directive that would implement this section is being held up. I ask the Minister why this is so and whether it will be implemented. It is extremely important that it is as so many teachers do not understand what apprenticeships are about.
The other important issue I wish to raise is that of progression into higher education. The numbers moving into higher education are pitifully small—something like 2 to 4 per cent of apprentices go into higher education. It is vital that this is seen as an equivalent route. It is a level 3 qualification. It is the same as A-level and it really must be seen as an equivalent route. It is very important that apprenticeships are given equal status. They are an extremely useful way for young people to learn the skills that we need. This Government support them and I am delighted that that is so. I hope that we shall see them moving from strength to strength.
Lord Bhattacharyya
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lady Wall on securing this important debate. It was also a pleasure to hear from my noble friend Lord Sugar. I do not claim to be a celebrity apprentice, but as a former graduate apprentice I am delighted that your Lordships’ House is discussing apprenticeships. I have regularly raised this issue in many debates here. I wish that apprenticeships received a tenth of the attention devoted to graduate funding. Tony Blair once said that political interest in vocational education was so low that he could declare war on Iran during a speech on skills and nobody would notice. I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, will resist the urge to test that theory today.
It is clear that this Government, like the previous one, see the expansion of apprenticeships as central to economic success—the issue is how. The previous Government did some very good things. In the mid-1990s there was not a penny in the budget for apprenticeships, while today there is more than £1 billion a year. Our policies were right and our intentions were honourable. When Ministers raid the Train to Gain budget, they should pause to be thankful that there is now a budget to raid. But we on this side of the House should not pretend that all was well in the handling of skills. It is hard to study the current system without feeling frustration and confusion. The charge made by the Higher Education Minister, Mr Willetts, of bureaucracy in the funding of apprenticeships has some force. There are too many bodies, too many processes, too much complexity and too little employer involvement. Bodies such as the Learning and Skills Council were too bureaucratic.
Despite the efforts of all parties, we still have a huge issue with the skills base in this country. We need to solve this problem. We cannot allow a lack of skills to be a hindrance to growth. The ERA Foundation recently asked leading industrialists how to regenerate British manufacturing. One of the top four issues they identified was the shortage of technicians, ahead of even corporation tax. Our Economic Affairs Committee made a similar point in its 2007 report.
When I was a graduate apprentice, businesses invested in technical colleges, and one of the conditions at that time of becoming a member of my institution, the Institution of Mechanical Engineers, was the completion of a graduate apprenticeship. However, as competition grew, there was less incentive for companies to invest. In response, the Conservative Government in effect nationalised British vocational education by creating the NCVQ. The fundamental shape of the system has not changed much since, although the bureaucracy has been recast repeatedly.
It is well past the time to move beyond shuffling the bureaucratic pack. First, better technical education at the secondary school level is vital to improving our skills base. We must devote more resources to it. The noble Lord, Lord Baker of Dorking, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, is battling to create a new generation of university technical colleges. We at Warwick have seen his enthusiasm at first hand, and I sincerely hope that there will be funding to make them a reality in my area.
The next challenge is to create more high-quality apprenticeships. This week, I attended the Rolls-Royce annual science awards, where the Skills Minister told me that he was passionate about apprenticeships. I wish him the best of luck with the CSR. Together, we saw the great enthusiasm of young people for building their technical skills. Companies such as Rolls-Royce, Dyson, Jaguar Land Rover and others are exemplars, because science and technical education is essential to their future. These companies act as ambassadors in schools for studying science and for apprenticeships. Unfortunately, too few companies follow their lead. To change this, we must go back to first principles. Why do people wish to enter apprenticeships? For a learner, it is the judgment that serving an apprenticeship will increase their career prospects. This cannot be just ticking a box and getting around unemployment. For an employer, it is an investment in the future of their workforce.
Young people are clear about which apprenticeships are valuable. The Financial Times reported in August that more than 24,000 people had applied for 220 apprenticeships at BT. When apprentices choose to learn at companies such as BT, Rolls-Royce civil aerospace, JCB and Jaguar Land Rover, they understand that future opportunities make it worth sacrificing current income. For employers, an apprenticeship is worth while if the skills that are learnt make the apprentice a more valuable employee. The key to achieving both these objectives is to hand the power of choice to the individual apprentice, so resources flow to the most successful apprenticeships programme. This is the model in Germany. The student chooses the apprenticeship that will provide the best future for them. When they secure their contract, their employer receives a “virtual voucher” that can be spent at whatever technical college the company chooses, while the cost of the apprenticeship itself is the responsibility of the employer. How might we create such a shift in a Britain with limited funding? It is simple; put funding in the hands of the learner and the whole system begins to work in the interest of the apprentice.
A recent monograph by Alison Wolf for the Institute of Economic Affairs makes this point powerfully. As in higher education, we could offer a system of apprenticeship loans to fund technical education, which would be paid back once the worker was earning at a decent level. In this model, each apprentice would make a contribution to their future success. This would create a significant budget, to be spent on high-quality technical education, which real businesses and apprentices value. We would also cut out huge swathes of bureaucracy. An apprenticeship loan would fund the apprentice’s technical education, with the state supporting the student’s aspirations via subsidised interest and deferred repayment. The company would assume the burden of apprentice wages and firm specific training, as it should. This would allow government to be the guardian of apprentices’ right to a quality technical education and not to be the dictator of national skills needs. Employers would have an incentive to design apprenticeships that are attractive to the best future employees, which would drive up standards and numbers. Of course, we also need to fund vocational education directly, but that scarce money is best spent on funding general technical education, not backing specific courses.
Apprenticeships are vital to the success of our economy. I know this from working with the automotive industry, where I have found that growth is hampered by a lack of apprenticeships. We have had 10 years of learning and skills councils and before that the techs. Why are we still bothered about skills? If we back the instincts of apprentices, we will create a stronger technical education for all. That is absolutely essential if we are to rebuild our economy on a sure and stable footing.
Lord Haskel
My Lords, this is an important debate because apprenticeships touch so many of our current problems, economic and social, including the need to grow the economy, raising our level of technical skills—as my noble friend Lord Bhattacharyya, explained—and the need to provide people to fill the 2 million jobs that the private sector will have to create. Many of those jobs will need to be in manufacturing. It should be remembered that each manufacturing job supports several service jobs, not the other way around.
Immigration happens not because of lax borders, but because we are short of the skills that immigrants bring. One reason why we have so many immigrant workers, particularly from European states, is that those countries have well developed apprenticeship programmes for doing jobs for which in Britain there is no formal training requirement. Many of those jobs are in the construction industry, such as ground work or foundation building. One of our largest areas of unemployment and social deprivation is among young people. Apprenticeships help to get these people to work. My noble friend Lord Sugar and other businessmen have voiced their concerns at the low level of skills and education that prospective employees bring to the workplace. Apprenticeship schemes do something about this.
My noble friend Lady Wall told us that the days of just learning at the bench and serving time are long past. Yes, apprentices have to learn the technical skills, but they also have to understand them. To get their qualifications, apprentices also have to acquire the modern soft skills of numeracy, literacy, personal communication and presentation. All this has helped to make apprenticeship a much broader, more satisfying and more worthwhile experience.
Who provides this? As my noble friend Lady Wall explained, large companies do a lot of this work for themselves and their suppliers. Some industries have group training associations and there are some excellent private sector training contractors. But there is one group of unsung heroes in this modernisation of apprenticeships which is often ignored—the colleges of further education. I live in Richmond and, when preparing for this debate, I visited Richmond upon Thames College, our local college of further education, and spoke to Rob Rudd who, my noble friend Lord Sugar will be pleased to know, mentors some 130 apprentices. They spend up to l6 hours a week at work and the rest at college. The state pays because they are under 18; but over-18 year-olds who have not done well at school, have become disengaged at school, or who are not academic and prefer practical work, or older people who require reskilling, can find their second chance at a place such as Richmond upon Thames College.
The college finds local companies with vacancies, in addition to the National Apprenticeship Service. There are no big firms in Richmond, and so the college caters for hundreds of small and medium-sized enterprises in the area. This is especially difficult because many of these small companies are either reluctant to offer apprenticeships or had not really thought about it. The college therefore employs somebody to go around all of these firms to create apprenticeship places—a kind of employment agency.
Furthermore, the college subsidises some of these apprenticeships. With an apprentice of 19 or older, the employer is meant to contribute 50 per cent. Some firms do not pay, either because they cannot afford it or because they are just unwilling to do so. The college carries the extra cost. Private training companies work mainly with the service sector, for which many young people are just not suited. The colleges tend to do the more costly things, like technology, construction, engineering, IT and catering.
Perhaps noble Lords can see why FE colleges are the unsung heroes of apprenticeships. I know that the Minister is aware of their work, and so I hope that she will agree with me. Her honourable friend the Minister of State for Further Education, Mr John Hayes, in his speech of 29 September said,
“We are also taking an overdue look at ... the costs of Apprenticeships”.
In the same speech, Mr Hayes also said that the Government have begun to provide an extra 50,000 apprenticeships by redeploying £150 million. Can the Minister say where the extra 50,000 places will be provided and from where the £150 million is being redeployed? How will it affect FE colleges?
One way in which the Government can help these colleges is to take into account prior learning delivered by the college. Many colleges have young apprentice schemes or pre-apprentice schemes which provide a year at college to help apprentices attain the standards they need in maths, English and IT—the soft skills. The proposal is that they will then be tested again when they qualify. It would be sensible to maintain the exemption that already exists. I see from its website that the Minister's department has extended the consultation on this. I hope that the Minister will agree that there is no need to add more regulation to the already rather complex situation.
We all seem to agree that knowledge and skills are the key to future prosperity and a more equal society. The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, and my noble friend Lord Bhattacharyya spoke about how, when Labour was in power, it persistently pushed up apprentice participation rates. Can the Minister assure us that this Government will continue the good work?
Lord Aberdare
My Lords, I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak in this debate, and I declare an interest as a director of two small social enterprises, both of which are engaged in helping unemployed people in London to find and keep employment. Having said that, very few of these jobs have so far taken the form of apprenticeships—certainly fewer than I might originally have anticipated. I also apologise for covering a certain amount of ground where points have already been made very much more elegantly by noble Lords speaking earlier in the debate.
I strongly support the Government’s commitment to apprenticeships, which are filling a vital need to provide jobs and training for young people seeking to enter the labour market, and essential skills for the UK economy. I recently attended the launch of the Southwark apprenticeships challenge “100 in 100” campaign, which aims to create 100 apprenticeship opportunities in that borough within 100 days. I was struck by the range of different apprenticeship frameworks now available. There are no fewer than 190 separate frameworks in 80 different industry sectors. I was struck, too, by the enthusiasm and commitment of those existing apprentices, and their employers, who spoke at the event.
However, it is clear that apprenticeships are currently providing only a small part of the answer to the challenges of youth unemployment. If their impact is to be maintained and increased, their attractiveness to young people—and even more to the employers, without whom there would be no apprenticeship opportunities—needs to be enhanced. There are a number of jobs or sectors which may have good opportunities for young people, but which are not currently well suited to apprenticeships. Apprenticeships work very well for jobs which call for specific skills or qualifications, not just in traditional areas like construction, plumbing and hairdressing, but also in business services such as IT, accounting, design, or marketing and communications. However, they are less appropriate in sectors like hospitality, where the key requirements for staff are sometimes more to do with attitudes and behaviours than specific skills, and where a high degree of flexibility is required in working patterns, which may not fit easily with the need for apprentices to spend one day a week in training. There are several successful apprenticeship schemes for chefs, but fewer for roles such as hotel receptionists, waiters or back-office staff.
Apprenticeships are also scarce in the creative and media sector, where a good many jobs tend to be freelance or self-employed, and may not lend themselves easily to the apprenticeship model. For example, an apprentice has to be employed by someone, which is not always straightforward in a sector where most people are self-employed. Many production companies, magazine publishers and other businesses in the sector are quite small, and SMEs find it harder than larger enterprises to set up apprenticeships: finding out what is involved, identifying suitable frameworks and learning institutions or training partners to deliver them, and accessing available funding. Well targeted information and signposting are needed to make it as easy as possible for different types of employers—small or large, public or private—to implement apprenticeships.
It is therefore important to ensure that apprenticeships—and, indeed, other employment programmes such as the planned new Work Programme—are sufficiently appealing to employers. Many of the employers we have worked with are keen to take on young people and set them on the first step of their careers. At the same time, however, they are all too conscious of the business pressures they currently face which make it hard for them to find or spare resources to train young people, to pay their wages and to provide the support some of them need to stay in, and do well at, their jobs—support such as the mentoring support mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Sugar.
Again, this is especially true of SMEs. One of the great merits of the previous Government's future jobs fund, regrettably terminated by the coalition, was that it provided a real incentive for employers to offer—indeed, to create—jobs for young people by actually paying their wage costs, at least at minimum wage levels, for the first six months of employment. Apprenticeships do allow employers to pay less than the standard minimum wage, but this may not be entirely a good thing. We have even heard of young people dropping out of apprenticeships for the simple reason that they cannot afford the bus fare to work. It does not help many public sector employers who are bound by collective bargaining agreements to pay higher rates.
Earlier this year, the National Apprenticeship Service offered grants of £2,500 to employers, especially SMEs, to take on 16 and 17 year-old apprentices. This was instrumental in persuading a group of museums to set up a programme for 50 apprentices, which they said they might not have done without the subsidy.
Pump-priming incentives like this may be needed to encourage employers to go the extra mile in creating jobs for young people in these difficult times, and to overcome their initial doubts about the benefits of taking on untrained young people, with all the perceived constraints and paperwork of a government-sponsored scheme.
I have focused on a couple of ways to increase the impact of apprenticeships: extending their scope to cover additional sectors and jobs, and enhancing their attractiveness to employers. There are many others, such as: developing higher-level apprenticeships to provide an access route into higher education; supporting colleges in the provision of pre-apprenticeship training; extending the scheme to cover well regarded training programmes not currently recognised as apprenticeships, such as those run by several guilds or livery companies; or finding ways to enable public sector bodies to take on apprentices at a time when many of them are subject to hiring freezes.
I wondered about the possibility of offering apprenticeships in your Lordships' House, as was done in another place under the aegis of my noble friend Lord Martin of Springburn. I understand that there are programmes for commis chefs and library staff to receive training to gain higher qualifications, although these are not formally classed as apprenticeships. Beyond that, the House, like so many other employers, currently lacks suitable roles or resources for an apprenticeship scheme.
Apprenticeships can play an important part in ensuring that young people have opportunities to work and to acquire skills, even in a period of economic constraint, so that we avoid the catastrophe of a generation of young people missing out on the experience of work when they leave education. I urge the Government to ensure that apprenticeships, along with other youth employment and skills programmes, continue to receive the support, emphasis and resources required to achieve that goal.
Lord Layard
My Lords, I strongly congratulate my noble friend on initiating this debate. Apprenticeships are vital to the future of the country. As we know, low skill is our problem. It is why we have so many people on low pay, and why we have low productivity and so much youth unemployment. The only way we can eliminate this is through apprenticeships. Learning while working is what young people and employers want. It must be established clearly as the main alternative to A-levels and university for our young people. Youngsters of 13 or 14 must grow up thinking that this is the natural alternative to A-levels or university as a way into a decent job.
That is why, last year, we enacted the historic apprenticeship Act in this House. The main clause gave, in three years' time, an entitlement to an apprenticeship to every young person with the minimum qualifications of five GCSEs at any grade. If that is implemented, it will be one of the most important things done in the last Parliament. However, will it be done? For me, that is the key question of the debate. I very much hope that the Minister will tell us whether the Government will implement the entitlement to an apprenticeship in 2013, which is in the Act. Obviously, it is not easy to do, especially in a recession at a time of financial squeeze. I shall say a bit about what needs to happen for it to be done, and then I shall make a few more points about why it is so crucial that it is done.
There are five key steps. First, as my noble friend Lord Sugar said, we must ensure that the employers are much more central to the process, and that they know that they can have the money. This point was made in the report of the Economic Affairs Committee, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham. The answer from the authorities is always that the employers can have the money—but do they know this? I think that most of them have no idea that they could have the money if they wanted to run an apprenticeship scheme. Nobody has gone out and offered them the money up front. How many Ministers have made speeches saying, “Take this money”? Has the National Apprenticeship Service gone round saying, “Take this money”? I do not think so; I have seen no evidence of it; but that is what has got to happen. Of course, employers will not take the money if the system is as bureaucratic as it is at present. Linked to that, there has to be a cut in bureaucracy to make it easier for an employer to run an apprenticeship.
The second issue is the level 2 apprenticeship. Of course we want everybody to get to level 3, but most 16 to 18 year-olds will have to go through level 2 to reach level 3. When the Economic Affairs Committee went to Germany and talked to employers, it was interesting to learn what level of entry qualification they expect for an apprenticeship. They do not expect apprentices to be wonderful. The noble Lord, Lord Sugar, rightly said that they know nothing when they come. They have got to be taken in, in a spirit of good will, by an employer who will make the most of them. That means that employers must be willing to take in young people at 16 and 17 who do not have anything remotely like level 2 already under their belt. This is essential: we will not revitalise the youth labour market in this country, which has closed down over the past 25 years, unless we have employers who accept that their role includes taking in greenhorns.
Thirdly, in the government allocation of funding, the absolute priority must go to 16 to 18 year-olds. The Government love to say how many people over 18 get apprenticeships. It is always a bigger number than the number of those under 18. It should be the other way around, otherwise there is no chance of achieving the entitlement.
Fourthly, as the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, said, schools must be required to inform their youngsters about apprenticeships. I simply do not understand what has happened about that clause in the Act and why it is not being implemented. Perhaps we will be told.
Fifthly, somebody must co-ordinate this. Who is responsible for making the entitlement happen? It can only be one body: the National Apprenticeship Service. Has it been told that it must make this happen? Has it been asked to produce an action plan for making it happen? Again, perhaps we will be told.
We are talking about a really important social and economic change, and perhaps I may end with a few interesting facts to show why it is so important. First, apprenticeship is a first-class investment. I should like to quote some estimates of the social rate of return—that is, the rate of return to the whole of society—from apprenticeship based on some excellent work by a former colleague of mine, Steven McIntosh, who is now at the University of Sheffield. He shows—it is a robust estimate, much tested—that the rate of return from apprenticeship has been over 35 per cent per annum. That is incredibly high. Comparable estimates which many of us have done for rates of return from A-level and university are in the ballpark of 10 per cent and are probably even less for full-time vocational education.
Unfortunately, until recently the Government and people of all parties have tended to think that the solution to our problems is more full-time vocational education. It is not; it is apprenticeship, yet at the moment full-time education is treated more generously than apprenticeship. Full-time education for 16 to 18 year-olds receives £4,000 a year, compared with £3,300 for apprenticeship, although, as I said, the latter yields a rate of return of one-third. Of course, the reason is that full-time vocational education—this applies equally to the diploma and the NVQ—does not provide a ticket for the trade.
A misconceived thrust was given but fortunately we are now getting back on track with apprenticeship as a centrepiece. However, it is easy to see what will happen in the recession. Young people will stay on in full-time education for lack of anything else to do and we will pay out the £4,000 for them because there are no places for apprenticeships, which they would much rather have. We have to make sure that that does not happen, because either they will not stay in full-time education and become unemployed or they will go into a less useful form of education. Unemployment would be a social tragedy and more full-time education could well be a waste of money compared with apprenticeship.
Equally, I point out—this has already been mentioned—that apprenticeship is the secret of success in many of our competitor nations. My colleague Hilary Steedman showed that to be the case recently in a wonderful report on apprenticeship in different countries.
We are discussing something which is not peripheral but central to the future of our country in both the short and long run. In the short run, we face a real national danger of mass youth unemployment, losing a whole generation. Many of these youngsters will reject full-time education and, if we cannot secure them an apprenticeship, we will have a real problem on our hands. In the long term, we will never get a more productive or more equal society without a proper, flourishing system of apprenticeship, which has to start as soon as a young person has nothing better to do. Therefore, it is a dreadful error to build up apprenticeships for those over the age of 18 and not to give priority to 16 to 18 year-olds. Our young people have to see, when they are 13 or 14, that apprenticeship is as available to them as full-time education. I hope that the Minister can assure us that that is what the Government intend to do by implementing entitlement at the due date.
Lord Taylor of Warwick
My Lords, I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wall, for securing this debate. It is both important and timely.
It was an American commentator who said, “Cheer Up. The worst is yet to come!”. We know that the economy has very difficult challenges ahead but fundamental to economic recovery will be the issue of skills and training. In my view, apprenticeships are the ideal vehicles for correcting our skills deficit.
I see apprenticeship training as leading from the top—it is mentoring—so that others can achieve their potential. Some years ago when I worked for a company, a common phrase was applied if things went wrong. It was, “Assistant heads must roll!”. That ethos is not the way to encourage and nurture talent.
A man who ran a small business once said, “When I started my business, I had nothing. Fifteen years later, I still have some of it left”. With increased bureaucracy and red tape over the past few years, it has been very difficult for small businessmen to afford to take on trainee apprentices, yet small business is the cornerstone of our economy, and high-quality training opportunities such as apprenticeships are vital to supporting its growth and success.
I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Sugar, on raising the profile of the apprentice through his BBC television series. I watched the programme last night and noted that he said he did not want “steady Eddies” or “cautious Carols”. I understand by that that he is looking for young people with initiative who are prepared to take risks and to listen and learn while they earn. I congratulate him on raising the profile.
However, there are other ways of building that profile. I feel that there is a perception problem when it comes to apprentices. Over the past few years, there has perhaps been a perception that an academic degree from a university is somehow superior to practical vocational skills. That is not the case and we have to address that perception problem. Just about every noble Lord who has spoken so far has come up with very practical ideas about what we should do to improve the apprenticeships environment.
I want to tackle the problem of perception. In my submission the Government should consider a national, annual apprenticeship day in every local authority to celebrate—I emphasise that word—what apprenticeships have achieved and what they contribute to this country. What about issuing a special stamp which could celebrate some of the world’s most famous apprentices, such as Isambard Kingdom Brunel, Henry Ford, Vincent van Gogh, Sir Alex Ferguson, the manager of Manchester United, and the late designer Alexander McQueen? That would certainly increase the profile of apprentices and give them a sense of pride in their achievements.
Edge, the apprenticeship organisation, says that two-thirds of teachers regard their knowledge of apprenticeships as poor and that only one in four teachers recommends apprenticeships in preference to higher education. I believe that the Department of Education should encourage all secondary schools to provide their students with presentations from training providers, employers and apprentices themselves.
It is important to make the point that only two per cent of apprenticeships go to girls. We need to encourage more girls to look at engineering, science, technology and mathematics. Perhaps Karren Brady, a colleague of the noble Lord, Lord Sugar, could help to promote the message that more girls should look at becoming apprentices.
The ceremony associated with obtaining a degree should be expanded to apprenticeships. It could be localised and made appropriate to different parts of the country. That would give apprentices a sense of civic pride in their area, and school pupils would see that and aspire to join their ranks. I would go even further. I would like to see a royal society of apprenticeships, rather like the Law Society or the British Medical Association, with a social and professional network similar to that provided by universities.
Apprenticeships also need to become part of the growth industries such as IT, the green economy and high-tech engineering. The sports and recreation industries are large wealth creators for this country, so they should be part of the expansion of apprenticeships. My father was a professional cricketer and semi-professional footballer. He played cricket for Warwickshire. His apprenticeship involved little more than helping to lay out the kit and polish the boots of the first team squad which he eventually got selected for. Nowadays many professional sports, especially soccer, encourage some training in business and other skills, but it is still patchy and needs improving. There are still too many who fail to make the grade as professional sportsmen and have no other skill training to fall back on, so please do not neglect the sports and recreation industry.
I do not see higher education and further education as competitors. The university sector can play an important role in assisting the elevation of the image of practical learning. For some years I had the privilege of being chancellor of Bournemouth University, which places a high emphasis on education and meeting the practical needs of employers. We used to say that you will not be able to study the history of punk rock at Bournemouth University.
We need to develop different levels of training, and that should start with the re-engagement of those outside the workforce and might involve bite-size, modular chunks of learning. Of course that could lead to a more focused level 2, full apprenticeships at level 3 and advanced apprenticeships at levels 4 and 5. Quality control could be monitored through a simpler form of Ofsted-like report. The point was made earlier by other noble Lords that if we ignore the unemployed and do not give them a chance, we shall be creating a bigger problem for the future.
I fully agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Wall, that apprenticeships should not be seen as cheap labour. There is ample research to show that apprenticeships bring value to employers as well as providing expertise to the apprentices. They are not a problem; they are part of the solution to growing the economy again. The future has arrived. We must recognise it and embrace this opportunity.
Baroness Drake
My Lords, the case for increasing apprenticeships is compelling. The seminal report by the noble Lord, Lord Leitch, in 2006 confirmed that the UK’s skill base remained weak by international standards, holding back growth, productivity and social justice. It stated clearly that, if the UK was not to slip down the league table and if businesses were to compete globally, a radical step change was necessary. It stated that skills were no longer a driver of success but the key driver of success. The noble Lord’s report set a series of tough ambitions for 2012, including half a million apprenticeships. The 2010 Ambition 2020 report by the Commission for Employment and Skills measures progress against those ambitions. It confirms that, without collaborative intervention by the Government, the UK labour market will face a shortfall of more than 3 million skilled people by 2020 and that, although the UK remains a significant economic force internationally, our productivity rate is outside the upper quartile of OECD countries and needs to increase by 13 per cent—that is some way when one reflects that a 1 per cent increase in productivity generates about £11 billion in additional GDP.
Recent OECD figures show that, in terms of skills, the UK is improving absolutely but not relatively. At the higher skills level, we hold our position, but in basic and intermediate skills, although we have clearly improved in absolute terms, our ranking has fallen slightly from 21st to 23rd. Yes, significant progress has been made, but other countries have made progress, too—some at a higher rate. We have to push ahead—no pause, no hesitation. Public spending decisions need to recognise that.
Apprenticeships are one of the skills success stories of the past decade. By 1997, apprenticeship starts had collapsed to 76,000. Compare that to the recent figures emerging of the strong growth in 2009-10, with about 280,000 starts and with successful completion rates at an all-time high of more than 72 per cent. However, it is not sufficient to arrest the decline; the UK must jump on the trajectory to world class. In an environment of public sector reductions, the Government are looking to the private sector to deliver employment growth, but that is unlikely to happen without a sustained commitment to delivering skills transformation.
About 80 per cent of employers offering apprenticeships report that they provided higher productivity, that they made them more competitive and that investment is normally recouped within two to three years. The CES estimates that, for the economy, apprenticeships return on average between £16 and £17 for every £1 of state investment and a 90 per cent employment rate.
I want to highlight three concerns. First, it is important to get the correct mix of apprenticeships as well as the correct volume. It would be wrong to maintain the latter at the expense of the former. Expenditure decisions should recognise the real need for higher-level apprenticeships. To do otherwise would provide a poorer match to industry needs and fail to recognise the impact of technology, automation and the knowledge economy. However, sectors have varying needs and the Government must secure an increase in higher-level apprenticeships while maintaining sufficient volumes of foundation apprenticeships, particularly in the service sectors. Inefficient trade-offs for political purposes between apprenticeship volumes and mix would ensure the delivery of suboptimal outcomes for productivity and competitiveness and should be resisted.
Secondly, decisions must be well informed and targeted by both company size and sector. We are all well aware of the skills challenges in science, technology, engineering and maths. Small and medium-sized enterprises do a lot of apprenticeship training. It is a myth that they do little. They account for the majority of places: 80 per cent of apprenticeships are provided by companies with fewer than 100 employees, with the majority in firms with fewer than 25 employees. The early data emerging on places in 2009-10 suggest that an additional 30,000 employers provided 40,000 extra places last year, with the vast majority being SMEs. There are still many more small companies to target.
Companies with more than 500 employees offer 5 per cent of apprenticeship places overall, so larger companies need to be encouraged to increase places, even to overtrain, and feed their supply chain. A major challenge to growth in apprenticeships will be the availability of employer places in key sectors. As so many other noble Lords have said, to drive up business demand apprenticeship frameworks must reflect up-to-date skill needs. Funding methodologies, delivery rules and audit regimes should balance guaranteeing quality and value for the public purse with the need for simplicity, which is often so important to so many employers.
Thirdly, it is essential to anticipate how the major skills challenges will evolve over the next five years. For example, there are cliff edges in those industries where the workforce is ageing and where apprenticeship starts are insufficient. As other noble Lords have said, engineering technicians and construction trades are just two. As has also been said, it is important to tackle this from both the demand and supply sides, to utilise labour market intelligence to inform young people where future skills demands are likely to be and to target firms where future skills challenges will be.
As many noble Lords have said, skills are a key driver of fairness. Lack of skills contributes to inequality, but acquisition of skills acts as a solution. Qualifications are correlated with stronger employment and higher wages. Young people have experienced the largest percentage increase in unemployment rates, which is why it is so important to see a clear expenditure commitment from the Government on increasing apprenticeships. The necessary drive to increase the number of young people entering university should not lead to the relative neglect of vocational education. Both the academic and the vocational are essential. The advantages of different learning programmes should be made clear to young people. An apprenticeship at level 2 provides a wage premium of 20 per cent for males and 4 per cent for females compared with lower-level qualifications. At level 3, the premium is 22 per cent for males and 14 per cent for females relative to level 2 qualifications. Employment rates for apprentices on completion are around 90 per cent, which is significantly higher even than degrees.
Finally, I shall refer to a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor. There is also a need to address continuing occupational segregation—the concentration of men in certain occupations and women in others. When I was an EOC commissioner, I chaired an investigation into occupational segregation, which showed that the greatest skill shortages were correlated with male concentrations. Such segregation was found to pervade the apprenticeship system. Unless the causes, such as cultural pressures, stereotyping and inadequate careers guidance, continue to be addressed, labour market inefficiencies will remain and young people will be denied access to opportunities.
I thank my noble friend Lady Wall for securing this debate, which is critical to the interests of the UK, employers and young people. The case for increasing apprenticeships is compelling. To hesitate will be to fail to grasp the prize of taking the UK up the rankings and making us world class in skills.
Lord Wakeham
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness on introducing this important debate. I confess that my main purpose in taking part was to listen to what I thought would be some useful and interesting contributions and, in particular, to hear how my noble friend the Minister and the Government intend to deal with some of these issues. Do not let us kid ourselves: this is a very old problem. I once said in this House that it is a problem going back more than 100 years. I remember that Lord Dearing, whom we miss dearly, immediately corrected me, saying, “No, it’s at least 130 years”. Then, in evidence to a Select Committee, he referred to 150 years.
In this country, we have a very reasonable standard of higher education. I declare an interest as chancellor of Brunel University. As far as I am concerned, I gave honorary degrees to the two noble Lords in this Chamber who have made the best speeches. I can also see others to whom I have given honorary degrees over my time as chancellor. However, I had great pleasure in giving the noble Lords, Lord Sugar and Lord Layard, honorary degrees. There may be one or two noble Lords to whom I have not yet given such degrees, so if they can give me their names I will see what I can do.
For the rest of our population, we have a history of low productivity and low wages, at much detriment to our economy, and needless disaffection among the young, as the noble Lord, Lord Layard, said. In many European countries, as we saw when we were doing our Select Committee inquiry, apprenticeship is an important way of dealing with a number of these problems. As has been said, I chaired the Economic Affairs Select Committee some years ago. The noble Lord, Lord Layard, was a driving force and was very helpful in educating us in a number of areas where we needed education. My impression was that there is a mighty challenge. I am most interested in hearing how the Government are setting about tackling it.
I read, as I know a number of other noble Lords have read, with interest the speech made by my noble friend’s colleague, John Hayes, on 29 September. It was a good speech and a lot of work went into it. It is clear that the Government are taking this seriously and making a number of initiatives. My worry is that they make too many initiatives. There have been enormous numbers of initiatives, but not enough follow-ups. It is partly the fault of Governments, in the sense that, in my experience, they have been for ever changing the structures of government. They put in a bright, young Minister in order to develop the policy on skills. The result of coming up with some sensible ideas is that he gets promoted to another job. The next Minister comes in and says, “Well, the way to get on in this world is to come up with another initiative”. Instead of following up on the good initiative, he produces another initiative. Our report did not put it quite as bluntly as that, but that situation occurs with government. As a result, we have a much too bureaucratic system. While I accept that there are good employers at all levels, small and large, I know that a lot of small employers feel that the whole thing is too bureaucratic for them to get involved, so they do not.
In essence, the problem is, first, that many young people leave school today without the basic functional literacy and numeracy required even to begin on apprenticeships. We saw that in the evidence that we took as we went around the country. There were kids wanting to do a good job—for example, work in a nursing home. Unfortunately, they could not do sufficient mathematics, so they were not even capable of dispensing medicine to patients. That is crazy. Secondly, many schools fail to inform their students about apprenticeship opportunities. I have a feeling that too many of our schools look on apprenticeships as a failure. They want to keep these kids on to become failures at A-level instead of saying to them, at the age of 16, “You have a real chance of a worthwhile career if you go into something else”.
The problems surround the apprenticeship programmes themselves. In my view, the Government have allowed individual employers too little involvement in how they are run, causing many employers to feel that they are just passive partners. This has been put more eloquently than I will say it, but employers need to be at the centre of apprenticeship provision. Apprenticeship schemes have suffered from too much emphasis on quantity rather than on quality. Completion rates for advanced apprenticeships are still too low, while progression through the different levels on to higher education also needs to be improved. Successive Governments have seen these problems, but they have not done enough about them, so we have a problem that is bad for the economy of the nation and bad for millions of young people who are missing out on a chance to improve their skills and earning capacity. That is a loss to the country.
I will be most interested to hear what my noble friend has to say. We have had this problem since long before she came into the Government and long before the last Government took office; it has been there for a very long time. I hope that we will not have to deal with too many new initiatives, because we have had enough of those. I hope that she will show us the way to give a lead that helps the many employers who will not play their part at the moment because they feel that the schemes are too bureaucratic.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, I add my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Wall, for initiating this debate. She has an admirable reputation for taking forward the work of the skills sector and has already made a significant contribution to this debate. As my noble friend Lord Sugar and others have identified, the previous Government had a great deal of which to be proud in terms of their experience in the apprenticeship world. They rescued the concept of apprenticeships and made them a realistic alternative training route for hundreds of thousands of young people with, as we have heard, more than a quarter of a million apprenticeship starts estimated to take place in 2010. In addition, their enlightened move to make all young people stay in education or vocational training until the age of 18, combined with the funds to make it happen, transformed young people’s prospects and recognised for the first time in many years that alternatives to academic study were more attractive to many young people and could equally lead to successful careers.
But this strategy was very much a work in progress. Although we were moving in the right direction, it requires continued commitment and investment to embed modern apprenticeships as a genuine alternative training choice for all young people, and it also requires a much greater buy-in from UK employers. A recent report from the London School of Economics, which may be the one to which my noble friend Lord Layard referred, identified that competitor countries still have much higher levels of apprenticeships. For example, England has only 11 apprenticeships per 1,000 employers compared with Germany, which has 40 per 1,000. Only 8 per cent of employers in England offered apprenticeships in 2009, whereas the much higher rates in Germany very well illustrate that apprenticeship is embedded in their culture and linked to a commitment to lifelong vocational upskilling. So the UK is missing out on a vital resource that would help in the industrial and technological race of the future.
At the same time, City & Guilds surveyed employers in 26 countries and found that most believed that hiring students with vocational qualifications in the business sector was better than taking on university graduates, but they also admitted that only a small proportion of their apprentices subsequently went on to be promoted to senior management roles, thereby highlighting the problem that they are still undervalued by many in the business community.
The baton has now been handed over to the coalition Government and it will be interesting to see how they intend to take the challenge forward. So far, I have to say that the omens are not encouraging. The first decision of the coalition was to water down the Conservative manifesto commitment to create 400,000 extra apprenticeships and college places in the next two years. Now there are no longer targets, only warm words and aspirations. As to the report of the Select Committee on Economic Affairs—I bow to the interpretation of its findings of the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham—I took away from it that the key to a successful apprenticeship policy is effectively to measure demand; how many employers would be prepared to create places and how many young people have been turned down on application. This would give the Government a clear steer and precise projections with which we could all judge whether they were being successful. Figures and targets matter.
With this in mind, like others, I read with interest the speech by the Minister of State for Further Education at the Institute of Directors a couple of weeks ago. I was looking for evidence of the investment in training and apprenticeships which might be coming down the line. I was disappointed. The only figure mentioned was the reallocation of the £150 million train-to-gain budget which has successfully allowed 1.5 million workers the chance to experience workplace training, many for the first time. It seems that spending on these second chance learners, many of whom have had a poor initial education, is no longer a priority. Can the Minister clarify whether this is the case?
In his speech, the Minister acknowledged the role that skills can play in stimulating growth. That is good; we can all agree with that. However, it is not clear how the Government are planning to invest in the extra training and apprenticeship places now to ensure that UK workers are skilled up and ready to take on the challenges of the new competitive world when growth kicks in. It is fairly obvious that training takes time—often years—so where is the funding and investment strategy from government to drive up our skills base and prepare us now for the new global business opportunities?
Without drive and impetus the skills training agenda will go into decline. The latest unemployment figures mark a worrying trend—jobseekers up and vacancies falling; more and more young people joining the ranks of the unemployed. The fear of the recession is already skewing opportunities for vocational training. We now see unemployed graduates applying for vocational training opportunities which they would previously have regarded as being beneath them, while other young people who might previously have gone to university are applying for apprenticeships as a guaranteed job in a difficult economic climate, thereby squeezing out those for whom the posts were originally intended. So just at the time when we were beginning to establish modern apprenticeships as a respectable alternative career choice, demand is vastly outstripping supply, with the traditional target recruits facing rejection and disillusionment.
Where are the new apprenticeships going to come from? Seemingly, not from the public sector. The anticipated level of cuts promoted by the Government across public services has created, effectively, a recruitment freeze. No new jobs are being created, not least in training posts. What is more, in the recent report of the Learning and Skills Council into barriers to creating new public sector apprenticeships, lack of funding was highlighted as a major issue, and this is clearly going to get worse. When cuts of this magnitude are contemplated, it is a sad fact that training budgets are the first to be hit. So, unless the Government are going to intervene and ring fence funding for public sector apprenticeships—which so far they have shown no intention of doing—we will lose a generation of newly skilled young people ready to take forward the public services of the future.
Already opportunities in the construction sector have been hit hard. The previous Government had ambitious plans to use the power of public procurement to drive up skills and apprenticeships in the construction sector which, in the recession, was increasingly relying on the public sector for business. However, the Government’s deeply unpopular decision to cancel the Building Schools for the Future programme and to decimate the housebuilding grant to the Homes and Communities Agency has made a mockery of that strategy. It is clear that without active government intervention, the overall number of public sector apprenticeships will fall.
So we come back to the central question: where will the new apprenticeships come from? I may be a cynic, but when the Minister of State talks about a new partnership between government, employers and the individual, I interpret it to mean that government will pay less and employers and individuals will pay more. I hope that the Minister will be able to disabuse me of this conclusion, not least because I do not think that such a strategy will work.
I believe that, first, because, when the economic climate is tough, neither employers nor individuals will have the additional spare capacity to invest in skills training, particularly when the future is so uncertain. Secondly, is it not in all our interests, rather than those of just individual employers, that we have competitive, well qualified public and private sectors to compete on the world stage? I will be interested to hear what the Minister has to say on this. Most importantly, I hope that the Minister will be able to give us some real facts on how much the Government intend to invest in apprenticeships and skills training in the coming years and what their target recruitment levels for apprenticeships are. Only then will we be able to monitor whether this strategy is working and how successful it will be. I look forward to hearing her response.
Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for introducing this debate and for the manner in which she did so. It is important that young people realise that apprenticeships provide access to skilled, respected and well paid jobs. Not everyone can go to university—many may not wish to do so—yet improving the skills base is important in securing our economic success. The previous Government understood this, hence their 2009 White Paper, Skills for Growth. Labour's £l.2 billion apprenticeships budget was a result of this.
One of the problems in recent years has been the decline of manufacturing industry in many areas. It is now generally accepted that our economy has become unbalanced, with too much reliance on financial services. Many of us said this at the time—the trade unions said so—but no one was listening then. The image of trade unions, for which the media are largely responsible, is almost entirely negative. That is unfair. Unions have always played a substantial role in the training and further education of their members. I was for many years a union official. My union had always supported education and training for members. We supported Ruskin College in Oxford. I benefited from courses at Ruskin, to which I had been sent by my union, and many years later I became a governor there. Like many unions, we ran our own training college. Much of the collective bargaining in which I was involved was concerned with the training and retraining of employees, a large part of it relating to the introduction of new technology. Our aim was to keep people in employment—no redundancies—through training and reskilling. That was the policy that we followed. The TUC has a learning and skills organisation, supported by all its affiliates. It is called unionlearn and has worked with public and private employers. It believes that a good skills base is good for the economy, vital to the recovery and in the best interests of both business and employees.
It is true that there are considerable challenges. The UK Commission for Employment and Skills concluded that we need significant improvements if the UK is to be world class in productivity, employment or skills. Unionlearn believes that these improvements can be achieved. A union learning fund has been established to set up a network of learning representatives to raise awareness of training, to help build active learning partnerships between unions and employers, and to work on learning and skills.
Of course, young people must be encouraged through the various routes available—many of them have been referred to in some of the very interesting contributions to this debate. However, I would be interested to know what the Government have in mind. It is widely acknowledged that many young men in particular face bleak prospects because of the high level of youth unemployment. Much more should be done to ensure that on-work training is available. The knowledge and experience of unions can be of great assistance in that regard.
I have mentioned young men. However, when I was a member of the Equal Opportunities Commission, one of our campaigns that had some limited success was the WISE campaign—Women into Science, Engineering and Construction. It was led by our then chair, the noble Baroness, Lady Platt, who is herself an engineer. She spent a lot of time persuading schools and parents that this was a suitable career choice for their daughters. Apprenticeship schemes in manufacturing industry should also be available to women; they are no doubt a result of our equality legislation, but encouragement is often required.
The debate about university funding and the Browne report should not sideline the pressure for access to apprenticeships and on-work training. Nor should there be attempts to cut expenditure in that area. We are talking about investment in our future—in all our futures. I await with interest the Government’s response.
Lord Cotter
My Lords, it is good to speak on apprenticeships today, thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Wall. The last Government initiated some good progress in the field, and it is welcome that the coalition is putting a big emphasis on apprenticeships as a vocational route for education. That is more vital than ever when there are considerable concerns about people having jobs, but also when the clear view of all is that we need to be a skilled nation.
University education is important, but so is the acquisition of specific vocational skills. A recent report from the Apprenticeship Ambassadors Network said that apprenticeships in this country were among the world’s best, which is welcome. However, the same report drew attention to the fact that, in England, only 8 per cent of big businesses offered apprenticeships in 2009, the lowest proportion out of eight countries studied. Those countries were selected as being similar to this country, seven being in Europe, and all with similar backgrounds to ours. It was stark to learn that, in the other countries, the percentage of big firms offering apprenticeships ranged between 25 and 30 per cent. Clearly, action is needed to get our big companies to step up to the plate, and to help them to do so.
Still looking at the business perspective, it is clear that there is a great need for small businesses to be engaged; I am glad to hear that the percentage is quite high, but there is a great need to increase it, as for big business, because the small business sector is the backbone of the country. It has also often been said, but I say it again, that bureaucracy needs to be kept to the minimum to assist that process.
Concerns have been expressed for some time about the low level of apprenticeships in the public sector, which must also be addressed. However, since much emphasis has been placed on the need for the private sector to provide jobs and stimulate the economy during these difficult times, the Government clearly need to encourage both sectors to engage.
The issue of schools’ career advice was raised by my noble friend Lady Sharp and others, but I add my voice to it. Careers advice must be of a high standard. It has been said that in England, as in France, schools are often hostile to work-based learning and provide little or no assistance. More than one report has indicated that careers advice is often not good enough at school level, when young people need to look to their prospects. I recollect hearing that apprenticeships have frequently not been referred to at all as an option; that must change.
Apprenticeships are offered nowadays in many sectors, which is welcome, but we must not exclude traditional trades in which people use their hands. I came across an example recently where a young person wanted to find an apprenticeship for carpentry but could not find such an opening. I also remember hearing that quite a lot of skills that are important and which we had in the past have been lost. When I was on the Audit Committee, we were very concerned about the difficulty of finding skilled people to help with the maintenance and improvement of the parliamentary buildings. We should not lose sight of traditional crafts and of many others.
I raise one point for the Minister to support. We need to communicate with employers about apprenticeships. I understand that this process was blocked by the Government’s freeze on marketing and communication, which, for example, halted such communication by the National Apprenticeship Service. Fortunately, a partial exemption from this directive has been allowed for apprenticeships, but it is important that communication is increased. I hope that the Minister will consider what I feel is an important point.
We are discussing today the need for an expansion of vocational education. In that connection, it is welcome that the coalition Government are promising an increase in apprenticeship places.
On training, as the Leitch report said, we in this country have a serious problem with management and leadership. It is widely recognised that often the quality of managers is poor; only 20 per cent of our managers have a management qualification. We can spend much time on training and apprenticeships, but all this can come to nothing when, as sometimes or often happens, poor management skills lead to a waste of such talents.
Clearly, the debate is welcome and a lot has come out of it. I am sure that we are all learning, as I have done, from many factors mentioned in it, and I hope that the Government, in their endeavours to increase apprenticeships, will listen. Clearly there is great support for apprenticeships, which is why this debate has been so important. I hope that the Government will address the many good points that have been made by many speakers.
Baroness Donaghy
My Lords, when I put my name down to speak in this debate, I had a conversation with my brother, who lives in Australia, and who worked for many years in the industrial maintenance of heating systems. He occasionally supervised apprentices. I asked him about his most vivid experience of working with an apprentice, and he replied that he once needed to climb a ladder to switch off a valve near the roof of a factory and asked his apprentice to “foot” the ladder. This was in the days before using a cherry-picker was considered a safe alternative for this sort of job. For those who are not sure, footing the ladder meant that the apprentice had to stay by the ladder and place his foot on the bottom rung to prevent it slipping. My brother emphasised the importance of not moving away from the ladder; he said, “If World War III breaks out, it is all right to shoot back but you do not take your foot off the ladder”. This is beginning to sound like a Gerard Hoffnung record. When my brother had climbed to the top of the ladder to turn off the valve, he looked down before beginning his descent and discovered to his horror that the apprentice had moved away from the ladder and was talking to his mates about the night before. When he came safely down the ladder—and I shall interpret this for the House of Lords—he had to admonish the apprentice for disobeying his instruction.
That anecdote taught me four things. First, I shall not be asking my brother for anecdotes ever again. Secondly, clarity of instruction, including warnings of the outbreak of World War III, does not always get through. Thirdly, there are boring aspects to all jobs, but they can prevent serious accidents, some of them fatal. Finally, inspiring and motivating is an important part of any trainer’s armoury.
My interest in apprenticeships stems from my time on the Low Pay Commission and from the inquiry that I conducted last year for the previous Government on fatal accidents in the construction industry. I was party to the original Low Pay Commission recommendations on apprentice pay rates despite their unpopularity even with my own union at the time. I am particularly pleased that the commission is having another look at this issue while maintaining the first principles of supporting a competitive economy, with the rates being set at a prudent level, being simple and straightforward and, finally, making a difference. I am sure that the Government will take its eventual recommendations seriously.
The last Low Pay Commission report shows the distribution of apprenticeships as follows: 49 per cent in hairdressing, early years, health and social care, business administration and customer service, retail and hospitality; 26 per cent in that ubiquitous category “other”; and 25 per cent in construction, engineering, electro-technical and motor industries, quite a small proportion of which is in construction. While not trying to play down the importance of that 49 per cent, I cannot help thinking that these, on the whole, low-paying occupations find mutual benefit in employing apprentices on an even lower rate for eight months to two years. It is a very different situation in construction.
I am a supporter of the construction industry, which consists of entrepreneurial, can-do people. It is vital to the UK economy and provides significant numbers of people with employment, but its record on apprentices is not good. As I wrote in my report last year, “All the major reports”, written about construction,
“refer to the industry’s poor image and reluctance of parents to encourage entry into the industry as one of the major draw-backs ... As the majority of the workforce (approx 55%) have skills below NVQ level 2 or equivalent and approx 11% hold ‘low or no qualifications’ ... it is clear ... there is ... a long way to go”.
The structure of the construction industry—some would say its absence of structure—means that it is easier to poach from other companies than to train. That problem is not exclusive to the construction industry.
During the inquiry we did a considerable amount of work through case studies. What emerged is that almost equal numbers of qualified but inexperienced workers and experienced but unqualified workers were involved in fatal accidents, so both elements are equally important. A well trained apprentice in construction is less likely to be a danger to themselves and, just as importantly, to others. This industry still experiences between 50 and 75 fatal accidents every year, and the under-recording of accidents leading to injury is a national scandal. Two of the cases that I came across involved young men who had received little or no training, who were not supervised and, in one case, who was given an instruction that was wholly inappropriate for his level of experience. I spent an evening with one of the families. What happened to their son—he fell off the roof of a factory and died—amounts to a life sentence for his whole family.
More quality apprenticeships in construction will improve the industry, may save lives and may give more opportunity to those young people who 40 years ago would have followed their fathers into the coal, steel or car manufacturing industries, and who are so alienated in today's society. There are around six applicants for each vacant place in construction apprenticeships. There is no lack of interest, but the majority of construction companies fail to train apprentices. With some, that is because of genuine financial uncertainty. Where they do take on apprentices, however, the dropout rate is high. I was given many reasons for this: young people received a poor deal and were taught inappropriate courses; they were not really committed; or they received only 15 hours’ training a week instead of 33 hours, which applied years ago. The picture is slightly better in Scotland, with eight apprentices for every 100 workers compared with 0.9 for every 100 workers in London, and the extent of self-employment must also have a major impact on training.
The point was made by some organisations whose representatives I met that the narrowness of training sometimes adds to the risk on site, where a multidisciplinary approach is often expected. This led to workers performing tasks with which they were not familiar, another major cause of fatal accidents in construction. Examples were given of builders who installed solar panels but who were not skilled roofers and often put themselves at risk. Another point was made that the 16 to 19 age range for apprenticeships was not always appropriate for certain trades—for instance, sheeting and cladding, where a more mature approach was required.
I called for a more flexible approach to apprentice training grants and a more targeted approach to certain specialisms. This would improve retention and qualification rates. In their response, the previous Government indicated rightly that this piece of work would be the responsibility of the main board of CITB-ConstructionSkills to address in the first instance. They indicate:
“ConstructionSkills may wish to explore the possibility of carrying out work to identify the underlying reasons for the non-completion of apprenticeships. This may also cover students in full-time college courses which some learners may believe are a form of apprenticeship. The research could also touch upon which specialist trades are most appropriate for 19+ year old apprentices”.
In making these comments about the shortcomings of construction apprenticeships, I wish to pay tribute to ConstructionSkills and the CSCS board for the work that they do. The construction trade unions also have an important part to play in their dedication to skills training.
I urge the Government to pick up the baton on these recommendations, which the previous Government accepted in full. I also pay tribute to the work done by the business department in ConstructionSkills to co-ordinate efforts to rescue those apprentices where a job was no longer guaranteed after training. I hope that in any future discussion about the structure and financing of ConstructionSkills, the Government will bear in mind all the work that has already been done by Sir Michael Latham and Sir John Egan as well as the important initiatives taken by my noble friend Lord Prescott in this area. I thank my noble friend Lady Wall for instigating this debate.
Lord Liddle
My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend Lady Wall for initiating this important debate. We have had a lot of interesting and impressive speeches, not least from my noble friend Lord Layard, who has contributed more to public policy in this field than possibly any other single individual, but also from a bevy of noble Baronesses on my side of the House who have spoken from their experience as trade unionists and have given a valuable illustration of the practical benefits that this trade union experience brings to this House.
My own interest in this topic is that I was an adviser to the Secretary of State for Business in the final 20 months or so of the Labour Government and did a lot of work in this field at that time. I came to the view that, while the Labour Government had done so much, there was still an awful lot more to do. This became more critical after the 2008 crisis when it was clear that we needed to rebalance the British economy and move to real engineering from financial engineering. We will not do that unless we do something about our apprentice and technician training in this country.
There is also a social issue. We need to find a way of providing decent jobs for people in this country who do not go to university. What we see is a terrible hollowing out of our labour market. There was a disappearance of what I call decent working-class jobs in the previous generation. In the knowledge and service economy we get a polarisation, with earnings racing ahead at the top and, at the bottom, many people in work but poor at the same time. The jobs in the middle that provided decent opportunities have disappeared. The only way we can rebuild that is through much more focus on apprentice and technician training. It is a mammoth economic and social challenge. The noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, was absolutely right: it has been a challenge for Britain for more than a century but it is even more urgent now.
The fact that it is urgent is accompanied by a great fear that in the coming public spending cuts the resources for investment in this key challenge for Britain simply will not be available. I add a few reflections of my own on how the Government might try to avoid such a situation. First, it is essential that if the apprentice guarantee is to be effective, we have to get the schools much more involved in a vocational curriculum from a fairly early age. People talk about a vocational curriculum but it is a little more expensive to provide than so-called academic learning. As the per capita payments to schools are squeezed, which I fear they will be, there is a danger that the money for the expansion of vocational education will also be squeezed. I have a suggestion and I would like to hear what the Minister thinks about it. A pupil premium for children from disadvantaged backgrounds has been talked about. It is a good idea but let us have a premium for schools that not only take in a disproportionate number of children from disadvantaged backgrounds, but deliver good vocational outcomes. We need to give priority to that in our school system.
Secondly, we have to use the money that is available for training as effectively as possible. The Labour Government concentrated a lot of money on basic skills and level 2 qualifications. There is a very strong social case for that. However, we ought, in a period when we have to be rigorous about our priorities, to focus on apprenticeships and workplace training. We have to provide better support than we so far have for advanced apprenticeships, as well as level 2 apprenticeships. When I was in the department, the idea of public support for advanced apprenticeships always caused much difficulty with the Treasury, which had a doctrine of market failure. Its view was that market failure applied at the bottom of the labour market but if apprentices were needed higher up the scale, surely employers would spend the money to provide the apprentices themselves. I do not think that has worked in practice for a long time. We must do something about it.
We have to focus the available money on building partnerships with groups of employers to provide apprenticeships. The noble Baroness, Lady Drake, used the wonderful phrase “collaborative intervention”. We must encourage more collaborative intervention by government to get employers to act. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Sugar, that public procurement is a possible lever here. I also agree that we should be looking at so-called licences to operate as another vehicle—basically saying that you cannot do a job unless you have a proper qualification. When there is great pressure on public finances, the case for statutory intervention in this area, particularly on a sectoral basis, becomes a lot stronger in order to get employers to work together. We—certainly noble Lords on these Benches—will have to look at that again.
Thirdly, we need to develop ladders of opportunity between basic apprenticeships, advanced apprenticeships, technician classes and between level 3, level 4 and degrees. I know that there are many problems attached to the Browne review but I was thrilled by its recommendation that the discrimination against part-time students that exists in the present system should be ended. That was a very positive feature of the Browne review. I rather agree with my noble friend Lord Bhattacharyya that we could make progress by enabling people to get loans for apprenticeships as well as for degrees. The fact that these loans are not available for apprenticeships in the way that they are for undergraduates is disgraceful discrimination against the working class.
We also need expansion on the part of universities that concentrate on teaching—the post-92 universities. I am a director of one in Cumbria. They must focus much more on developing bridges between apprenticeships, technician classes and degrees. Those institutions will need a lot of help to make that adjustment. I should like to feel that the Government are aware of that need and will act on it. We should put apprenticeships at the centre of our economic and social policies. We need stronger partnerships with employers; to put funds and choices in the hands of students; to have real workplace experience in apprenticeships; and to develop pathways to advanced and higher levels of excellence. Only if we do these things will we have some hope of achieving the resurgence of private sector dynamism and jobs growth on which the coalition Government’s future certainly depends.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend Lady Wall for giving us this opportunity to have such an excellent debate and I congratulate all those who have taken part in it. However, I shall not describe noble Baronesses in quite the same way as did my noble friend Lord Liddle, in case they indict me for political incorrectness.
The noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, talked about bright young Ministers. I am not sure whether I was a bright Minister but I certainly fulfilled the criterion of being a “Young” Minister. I had the pleasure of dealing with skills and apprenticeships. I say that because, as a former apprentice, I have had a lifelong involvement with this matter. The noble Lord talked about there being too many new initiatives. However, some of those new initiatives were needed. The previous Government created a National Apprenticeship Service, for which I do not apologise as I consider that it was needed. We came up with the idea of an online vacancy matching service with regard to apprenticeships. Fortunately—fingers crossed—that computer service is still working and has not crashed. The noble Lord commented on the lack of employer involvement. I take issue with that view, as we have sector skills councils, which very much involve employers in the creation of apprenticeship frameworks and the development of apprenticeships. He talked about literacy and numeracy. As my noble friend Lord Liddle said, we invested a huge amount in, and achieved, improvements in literacy and numeracy.
I could not help noticing that the current Secretary of State, Vince Cable, recently said that he was surprised that there were only 250,000 apprenticeships. I thought that it was lucky that he did not inherit his department in 1997. He would have been appalled, even flabbergasted, as then there were only 65,000 apprenticeships, with a completion rate of 25 per cent. I am puzzled by his surprise, but there are a number of things about the Secretary of State’s recent statements that have surprised not just me but a number of others.
In the previous Government, we tried to adopt a strategic approach. I only wish that my noble friend Lord Leitch was here for me to congratulate him on his report, which mapped out our problems in skills and what we needed to achieve. That is what we based a lot of our policies on. As a number of noble Lords have said, we introduced the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act, which did a number of important things. It legislated to give all suitably qualified young people the right to an apprenticeship by 2013, created the National Apprenticeship Service, created a statutory framework for apprenticeships and ensured that all young people at school receive adequate information, advice and guidance about apprenticeships. That, as the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, reminded us, has not yet been achieved in all schools; my experience from visiting schools is that the situation is gradually improving, but it is not good enough. We should also remind ourselves that we gave 22 million workers the right to ask for time to train. Unfortunately, only a third of employers provide training; two-thirds of employers have not yet seen the light or they indulge in poaching. In terms of legislation, my noble friend Lady Jones referred to our raising of the participation age. That was another fundamental improvement for young people, who were told that up to the age of 18 they ought to be in either education or training.
I put in a Written Question, which was answered by the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, asking how the Government were going to achieve their stated aim of an additional 50,000 apprentices. We all welcome the aim and Ministers have said that they will fund it by transferring money from the Train to Gain budget. That will have an implication in itself. However, putting that to one side, I asked what measures were to be put in place to achieve those additional 50,000 apprentices. As we know, it is one thing to say that you are going to achieve apprenticeships but it is another to realise that target. I was directed by the noble Lord towards the Government’s Strategy for Sustainable Growth, but all it says, apart from a few warm words, is:
“The Apprenticeship programme, newly refocused to prioritise progression to Level 3 and higher will help deliver the technician level skills that a dynamic economy needs. This year we will ... provide incentives to encourage provision and take-up of training in priority areas including a growth and innovation fund”.
The House needs to be assured on the detail of that because, unless you have a clear strategy to achieve those 50,000 places, the statement of that aim will, unfortunately, be just warm words.
Another Minister of State, John Hayes, has been referred to a number of times. I cannot help feeling that he, too, is on a voyage of discovery, because he says:
“I know that the work of GTAs (group training associations) has not been sufficiently recognised in recent years by the Government and its agencies. I know, too, that this neglect cannot be allowed to continue”.
I could not help bridling at that. We spent a lot of time and effort recognising the work of group training associations and, indeed, putting in additional money to encourage more of them to be created. Why did we do that? It is because GTAs are a means of ensuring that small and medium enterprises can gather together and cut the administration costs of employing apprentices. I suggest that the Minister of State does a little more homework before he makes that kind of comment.
There have been many good speeches in this debate, but I hope that noble Lords and Baronesses will forgive me if I do not refer to all of them; after all, that is the Minister’s job when replying. However, I will pick out one or two points. There have been a lot of references to both the cost and value of apprenticeships. I am making a plea for us to get the balance right. Of course there is a cost in employing an apprentice. However, we too often neglect the fact that apprentices also have real value. Not only do they foot the ladder, but they bring a lot of invigorating new ideas to companies. It is a two-way street. You need good-quality mentors, but the people who deal with young apprentices say that they are themselves enthused by their contribution. Apprentices want to get involved in real work as soon as possible.
I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Sugar for his contribution to that apprenticeship campaign. A lot of people expressed cynicism, saying: “What is the point of employing somebody like Lord Sugar for this? What does he know”?. Well, as he reminded us, he proved his worth in the increased interest that we got from employers. I would not say that I agreed with every aspect of his assessment of the value of FE and other forms of training. We were reminded by my noble friend Lord Haskel of the vital contribution of FE colleges.
I remind noble Lords who spoke about public procurement that that was also something that we did. We insisted that public procurement contracts must in future define how many apprentices there will be and what training will take place. There is sometimes a little collective amnesia in this area.
The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, reminded us about the collapse of manufacturing. It was not only the collapse of manufacturing that caused the decline of apprenticeships; that was also an unintended consequence of privatisation. The number of apprenticeships held in nationalised companies dropped alarmingly.
My noble friend Lord Bhattacharyya made an interesting contribution. His point about loans for apprenticeships as well as universities was so good that I wish that I had thought of it myself; I can pay no higher compliment than that. Indeed, I was getting around to that idea, but he was ahead of the game.
We should remind ourselves that the previous Labour Government guaranteed all 16 and 17 year-olds the right to an apprenticeship or school, college or training place by the end of September of each academic year. As I said, we wanted every young person to be in education, training or an apprenticeship until the age of 18. We had an education maintenance allowance for over 500,000 young people. We backed employment for young people with an investment of £1.2 billion in the Future Jobs Fund, which has unfortunately been scrapped.
I do not have time to go into all the details of some of the other things that we did, but there has been a lot of talk about advanced apprenticeships. That was part of the previous Government’s strategy, with three key parts. We talked about expanding the number of apprenticeships on offer by 35,000 to create a new class of skilled technicians. We intended to introduce skills accounts for each individual to invest in their education. There would also have been a radical simplification of the skills system.
I liked the idea of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, about celebrating apprenticeships. He will be pleased to know that a number of enlightened employers have graduation days for their apprentices. British Telecom is one. It is a really good idea: we should celebrate finishing apprenticeships. It is just as much of an achievement as when an undergraduate graduates.
I have been told to wind up. In conclusion, I say this to the Minister. In a debate yesterday, she talked about getting the CSR out of the way. I do not think that we will get it out of the way: it will have long-term repercussions. I hope that the PricewaterhouseCoopers forecast yesterday about the loss of jobs in both the public and private sectors is wrong, because we do not think that unemployment is a price worth paying. I hope that the Minister can demonstrate how, as we go through this very difficult period, the Government will nourish and sustain apprenticeships.
I will end on this note. We have often been accused by the Government of not fixing the roof when the sun was shining. We fixed the roofs of colleges when the sun was shining and when it was not. In 1997, the National Audit Office spoke of a crumbling infrastructure. I hope that this Government will improve on that record.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox)
My Lords, it is wonderful to hear the former Minister speaking with so much enthusiasm that it is difficult to get him to sit down. I know that he enjoyed his job very much and I hope that he will be heartened by at least some of my words. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Wall, for bringing to the attention of the House such an important issue—one on which she is obviously well versed. Her knowledge of engineering apprenticeships was an education for me. With consultations shortly to close on the new government strategy for skills, and with the return to the airwaves of the much loved programme of the noble Lord, Lord Sugar, this has been a timely debate. Therefore I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wall, and all noble Lords who have spoken. I am much encouraged and informed by what has been said. I was particularly moved when the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, talked about the construction industry. Her words will stay with me when I go back to my ministry and I welcome her to the House. I will try to address many of the points that have been raised. If I miss any of them because my time runs out, I will of course reply to noble Lords by letter.
Apprenticeships are at once the most ancient and modern form of vocational training. As has been said, in this country their formal existence dates from the Middle Ages, but in places such as China they have been around for a thousand years. Confucius explained why apprenticeships work by saying: “I hear and I forget, I see and I remember, I do and I understand”. The noble Lords, Lord Young and Lord Bhattacharyya, had experience of apprenticeships of very different kinds. Apprenticeships have touched for the better the lives of many noble Lords who have spoken today. They touched my own, because my father started his life’s journey as an indentured apprentice to a master craftsman, to whom he referred with affection and respect throughout the whole of his subsequent career. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Sugar, would approve of this. The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, also recalled this relationship at its best.
Today, thousands of young people are benefiting from the excellent start to working life that an apprenticeship can offer—but they are open not only to the young. Noble Lords may have seen recent reports in the media about current apprentices in their 60s and 70s. There is hope for all of us if we get thrown out of here. One of the many virtues of your Lordships’ House is its sense of fair play. It is in that spirit that I am bound to acknowledge that there is agreement on all sides of the House that apprenticeship training must be central to any Government’s approach to skills. I go further and acknowledge that one of the undoubted achievements of the previous Administration was to bring about a significant expansion of the number of apprentices in training. My noble friend Lord Wakeham can be assured that we aim to build on those initiatives, and although I may not be a bright young thing whom the Government are likely to move on ever so fast, I hope that I will stay in this ministry long enough to make sure that everything stays in place for a while.
I am convinced that, even in these straitened times, the task now must be not only to continue to increase the number and range of apprenticeships on offer but also to improve their quality. If we manage to do that, the historic promise that apprenticeships hold—of providing the right skills and knowledge to get on in life—will be delivered not just to some but to all apprentices. Happily, my conviction is shared across the coalition Government. In spite of the strain on the public purse, we all recognise the central place that apprenticeships must occupy in any successful work-based training system.
I was rather disappointed that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, was not able to recognise the clear commitment that this Government have made to apprenticeships. I hope she will see that I do a bit better as time goes on. I also hope that the whole House will have welcomed the commitment made in the coalition’s programme for government to,
“seek ways to support the creation of apprenticeships, internships, work pairings, and college and workplace training places as part of our wider programme to get Britain working”.
In the light of the Audit Commission’s critical report on the Train to Gain programme, we redeployed £50 million of funding from Train to Gain to create up to 50,000 new apprenticeship places, which have been referred to today, in the current year. This is the way to deliver high-quality skills which are genuinely employer-led. In answer to a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, the Skills Funding Agency and National Apprenticeship Service have been working alongside the further education and skills sectors to make those apprenticeship places available where there is local demand. They have reassured my colleague in the other place, John Hayes, that this process is going well and that we are on track to deliver our commitment.
Among many examples of steps that the Government are taking to increase the supply of apprenticeships in areas that most need them, I shall choose just one. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Wall, has a special interest in the Government’s skills agenda. She may therefore have noticed that my colleague, the Minister with responsibility for higher education and science, announced that the Birmingham Chamber of Commerce and Birmingham Metropolitan College are creating 3,000 new apprenticeship places which are to focus on areas such as green technologies, business skills and high-tech engineering. I hope the noble Baroness will agree that this is exactly the sort of local partnership that we want to see more of.
As the noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, rightly said, in all our plans the apprentice can play a vital role in shaping the design and delivery of apprenticeships. I reassure the noble Lord that we see all apprentices as our most important asset in demonstrating the business benefits of the programme to employers.
As for the future, my colleague in the other place, the Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning, John Hayes, has already publicly made clear our priorities on a number of occasions.
Above all—here I am responding to the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, and the noble Lords, Lord Layard and Lord Cotter—the Government want apprenticeships to become the gold standard for workplace training. They must become, even more than they already are, a form of training which employers are proud to offer because of the business benefits that apprentices bring, and to which prospective apprentices aspire just as much as people aspire to a university degree. As my colleague in another place, the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, pointed out in his Statement on higher education funding back in July, there should not be a rigid dividing line between higher and further education. Why not take an apprenticeship rather than a traditional degree course?
The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, raised the important issue of careers advice in schools. Schools already have a clear obligation to ensure that pupils receive information about apprenticeships. The Education and Skills Act 2008 requires schools, in discharging their statutory duty, to provide careers education, as well as impartial information and up-to-date materials that present a full range of 16 to 18 education or training options. I reassure the noble Baroness that the commencement of Section 250 of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 has been delayed pending the completion of that review. I should make it clear that that applies equally to the public and private sectors. Public sector employers have shown increasing commitment to apprenticeships and that should continue both for new staff, where those opportunities are available, and for existing staff. In government, it is important to practice what we preach and I am pleased to be able to tell your Lordships that there is an exemption to the current Civil Service recruitment freeze which allows departments to continue to recruit apprentices. I expect them to continue to offer apprentice places to existing staff also.
The question of the noble Lord, Lord Sugar, on promoting apprenticeships through government procurement is a very important point. The Government, and the public sector more widely, wield significant influence through the contracts which they negotiate and, like the noble Lord, this Government are interested in looking at what more can be done to use that influence to encourage employers with public sector contracts to consider the skills needs of their workforce.
To encourage more people in the public and private sectors to take up apprenticeships, the Minister for higher education and science announced only last week that people completing their apprenticeships in certain sectors will be given the title of technician. The National Apprenticeship Service will be working with the Technician Council and with the apprentices, providers and employers whom this announcement affects so that apprentices can soon proudly sport that badge of honour. I am drawn to the idea outlined by my noble friend Lord Taylor of a national apprenticeship day, commemoration stamps or anything else which will raise the expectation, the enthusiasm and the status of apprentices. Here I may be talking with prejudice, as I was brought up by my father who believed that universities were for people who thought and technical colleges were for people who did. I went to a technical college, so maybe I am prejudiced.
I fully realise that our ambitions for apprenticeships require urgent action in four main areas. First, there is a continuing need to expand the number of apprenticeship places on offer, as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, said. That is especially true of level 3 and above, where demand from employers for skills is growing and where the lifetime earnings premium of the apprenticeship is comparable with a degree.
Secondly, as the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, rightly said, we must create a much clearer ladder of progression within the apprenticeship programme. To that end, my department has already written to all sector skills councils asking them to develop level 4 and 5 apprenticeships’ frameworks to match those which already exist in sectors such as engineering. We recognise that there is much more to do on that front.
Thirdly, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, and to my noble friend Lord Wakeham that we must make it easier for employers to offer apprenticeships by improving the information available to them and cutting unnecessary red tape. That is particularly true for small and medium-sized businesses which, as the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, emphasised, form the bedrock of the apprenticeship schemes in this country.
Our final, and probably most difficult task, must be to reach a consensus on the right funding model for apprenticeships in our current circumstances and to establish a fair division of costs between the Government, employers and learners.
An advanced economy needs people with advanced skills in order to grow and we need to use all our talents. Here I pick up the point made by my noble friend Lord Taylor. He pointed to the gender imbalance. I can reassure him that nearly 50 per cent of apprentices are women. However, he is right to note that that is not the case in all sectors. We have a huge task to break down entrenched gender stereotypes. We published a draft skills strategy in June and have been consulting with employers, learners and skills sectors over the summer. We will publish a full skills strategy to accompany my department’s growth strategy after the spending review, which will set out in more detail how we intend to support our learning, skills and priorities.
I hope that this will reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Wall, that the coalition Government are committed to driving up the skill levels of the workforce. Apprenticeships already make a tremendous contribution to society, but this Government intend to go further: they intend to ensure that they are improved and expanded so that more individuals and businesses can benefit from the opportunities that they offer. I end with the words of that great exponent of crafts and apprenticeships, John Ruskin:
“The highest reward for man's toil is not what he gets for it, but what he becomes by it”.
Again, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wall, for bringing this debate to your Lordships’ House.
Baroness Wall of New Barnet
I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate this afternoon. I anticipated that it would be very interesting, but even I have been surprised by the things that I have learnt. I thank the Minister for her suggestion that she has learnt something today. I always take the view that if you participate in something but do not learn something, what was it all about? That applies to me and, I hope, to her, today.
I do not intend to go through all of the various points that have been raised. To some degree, I share the views of my noble friends Lord Sugar and Lord Haskel about FE colleges. Some FE colleges are great; some are less than great. I know from my experience that there is a lot to do to build some of them up to be the very best. We owe that to the young people who are going through their apprenticeship off-the-job training with them.
My noble friend Lord Sugar mentioned the importance of mentors. I ask the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, whether he could recommend a mentor to me, because I am really disappointed that he did not suggest that he would give me an honorary degree. Obviously, I need to do better, and I can do better only if I am mentored.
Lord Wakeham
I thought that I said that if anybody wanted to make an application, I would do the best that I could.
Baroness Wall of New Barnet
I am verbally making the application, and I will make sure that I follow it up in writing.
Again, I thank everybody who has spoken; it has been a tremendous debate, with lots of good suggestions. To refer to a comment by my noble friend Lord Young in response to the suggestion of the apprentices’ day, he was being a bit humble, because he has supported me on a request on several occasions to come to a number of businesses to present awards to apprentices. The celebrations that happened on those occasions have been marked by big and small companies. I thank my noble friend, but I also thank the noble Lord for recognising, as the Minister described, that that is not only acknowledging what people have done but encouraging others in giving apprenticeships the value that they need. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Cyberattacks: EU Committee Report
(14 years ago)
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Lord Jopling
That this House takes note of the Report of the European Union Committee on Protecting Europe against large-scale cyber-attacks (5th Report, Session 2009-10, HL Paper 68).
Lord Jopling
My Lords, this report on protecting Europe against large-scale cyberattacks followed an inquiry by the Home Affairs Sub-Committee of the European Union Select Committee. The chairmanship of the sub-committee is now in the safe and capable hands of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay of Chiswick. However, I was the chairman during the course of that fascinating inquiry and it therefore falls to me to open this debate.
We published the report on 18 May, seven months ago, the inquiry having begun in November last year. It is a long time, with a very fast-moving subject, since we published the report, and it is unfortunate, for such a fast-moving topic, that we have been prevented—mainly, of course, by the dissolution of Parliament—from having this debate earlier. I know that this is a continuing problem for Select Committees, which spend a lot of time and put a lot of work into their reports and then have to wait for a long time before the discussion comes to the Floor of your Lordships’ House.
I called this a fascinating inquiry. Certainly for me, it opened entirely new vistas. I believe that that was true of many other members of the committee. The process of educating us fell to Doctor Richard Clayton, our specialist adviser, and I pay particular tribute to his expert knowledge and helpful facility for explaining things to those less expert than him. I especially want to thank our clerk, Michael Collon, whose expertise, both in the past and in a continuing way, is of huge value to the Select Committee. The debate today brings with it two maiden speeches to which I, for one, am eagerly looking forward. They are from very distinguished experts in this field, both former Defence Secretaries, and I look forward enormously to their comments in the context of this report.
Anyone who doubts the havoc that successful cyberattacks can cause, and so the importance of protection against these attacks, needs to look no further than the opening pages of our report to see how in May 2007 Estonia virtually ground to a halt as a result not of, as it thought, activities by the Russian state, but perhaps more probably—no one is entirely sure—of activities by a number of disgruntled Russian students. More recently, noble Lords may have read about Stuxnet, a highly sophisticated virus designed to attack specific industrial infrastructure. It is so refined that many think that it could have been created only by a state. Computer systems in Iran have been particularly affected, and there is speculation that it could have been directed at one of the Iranian nuclear facilities—the Bushehr nuclear power plant or the Natanz uranium enrichment facility. There is no doubt that an appropriate virus of that sort could cause catastrophic failure at such a facility. That is a genuine example of cyberwar.
Colleagues will be aware of a speech made this week by Iain Lobban, the head of GCHQ at Cheltenham, which was reported in the Daily Telegraph yesterday. He said that cyberattacks pose a threat that,
“goes to the heart of our economic well-being and national interest”.
He went on to warn of,
“the threat from terrorists, criminals and hostile states using the internet”.
He said that:
“Government systems are being hit by email-borne attacks 1,000 times a month”.
Finally, he spoke of GCHQ,
“detecting more than 20,000 malicious emails on government networks each month”.
Those are examples of the possibilities with regard to cyberattacks.
I mention them for two reasons: first, as an illustration of the importance of protection against cyberattacks, although I am sure that noble Lords were never in any particular doubt about that; and, secondly, to make clear what our report means by cyberattack, since it is often confused with cybercrime. Cyberattacks are aimed at destroying or disabling major computer networks, such as power networks, communications or financial operations. They are obviously criminal acts. What is more accurately described as cybercrime is interference with personal internet security. By its nature, it relies on internet systems being up and running.
The trigger for our inquiry was a communication published by the European Commission in April 2009, entitled, Protecting Europe from Large Scale Cyber-attacks and Disruptions: Enhancing Preparedness, Security and Resilience. The disruptions to which the title refers are those caused by major natural disasters, such as Hurricane Katrina in 2005, or major accidental damage, such as the explosion at the Buncefield oil refinery in December 2005, which destroyed the offices of a company running a payroll system for employers of one in three Britons. In that case, the disruption was potentially severe, but the effects were not. That is an illustration of a point that witnesses made to us repeatedly; namely, that the internet is remarkably resilient. One of our witnesses said that it was designed to withstand a nuclear war. Noble Lords may find that comforting. Certainly I do. But at the same time it still means constant vigilance and absolutely no complacency.
The internet is global. Attacks are potentially global in scope and protection mechanisms must be prepared to meet global attacks. Our inquiry examined what role the European Union could play in defending the member states against attacks which would as easily come from outside the European Union as inside. Our conclusion was that much could be done only at local or at global level, but that there were also many areas where intervention at EU level could be helpful. However, the communication says little about the role of the European Union in a global context. That is unfortunate because there is no way in which any effective action can be taken at EU level without consideration of its effects at global level and the effects on it of global developments.
Network security is largely in the hands of organisations called computer emergency response teams, or CERTs. These organisations study network security to provide incident response services to victims of attacks and to publish alerts against attacks. In the UK, many large companies have their own CERT, as do organisations which have a common interest. JANET is a CERT for the academic world which protects up to 16 million people who are probably mostly unaware of its existence. The Government have their own CERT to protect the public sector, but there is no UK national CERT—nor does the committee believe that there is any need for one. The current system seems to work extremely well.
We were concerned that the Commission proposed that all member states should have national CERTs. We were hoping to read in the Government’s response that they had no intention of setting one up in the UK. In fact, we read in their response:
“The Government understands the argument that a national CERT would be of no added value to the UK, and that the current CERT network provides more effective protection. At this stage, we need to keep an open mind as to the best structures to support cyber defence and response in future”.
I am all for the Government keeping an open mind, but I hope that the Minister can assure us that they will not be setting up a national CERT just to satisfy the Commission’s yearning for tidiness. This is a classic example of, “If it ain’t broke, don’t try to fix it”.
But that is not always the case elsewhere. While some member states have the same model as the UK and others have national CERTs that work well, other states have little or no CERT capacity and what they have is distinctly broke. In the case of these states, what the Commission proposes could be valuable. It will benefit the United Kingdom if other states have effective internet protection because we could suffer problems within the global network through ineffective protection in other member states. We suggested that in the member states where there are too few or inadequate CERTs, the Government should support this proposal. Their response did not address this and I should be most grateful if the Minister would give us that response today.
Those who in the past have listened to debates on the European Union Committee’s reports on home affairs will have heard me, on a number of occasions, deploring the lack of co-operation and co-ordination between the European Union and NATO. Protection against cyberattacks is a form of civil protection and one that is increasing exponentially in importance. After the attacks on Estonia in 2007, NATO became alarmed and stepped up its work in this field. So did the EU, but not in a co-ordinated way between them. We recommended, as we have before, that the two institutions should co-operate and co-ordinate rather than proceeding on their separate, parallel ways, and we urged the Government to intervene to make this happen. In their response the Government said that greater co-operation between the EU and NATO was a priority. I should be glad to know what developments have taken place in the mean time, and how successful they have been in pushing what they describe as “their own priority”.
In evidence to us, the then Minister for security, the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, was doubtful whether NATO had any part to play in protecting the internet, saying that he did not regard it as the appropriate body unless the security of an individual member was threatened. As his successor as Minister, does my noble friend Lady Neville-Jones share that view in the light of what I have just said?
Lastly, I turn to the European Network and Information Security Agency. The Council decided that the agency should be sited in Greece, and the Greeks decided that it should be sited in Crete at Heraklion. They do not seem to have given any consideration to the problem of recruiting and retaining specialist staff in a remote place which has no international school, nor to the fact that it can mean up to two extra days of travelling time for those attending meetings, especially in winter when flights are very limited. We recorded the criticism and frustration that this has aroused, but we accept that nothing can be done at this stage to reverse the situation. However, we welcomed the decision of the Greek Government to make office space available in Athens for meetings, eliminating the need to go to Crete. I am glad to read in the Government’s response that this arrangement is working well.
At this stage I should like to suggest that in the future, when the European Union is sharing functions around the member states, the allocation should not just define the state concerned but also where that state intends to locate it. The Government say that the location does not seem to have resulted in an inability to recruit and retain staff, but in the next breath in the response they add that,
“it is clear that the location is a major factor when professional staff consider applying for posts”.
This seems to imply that the persons best qualified may not be applying for jobs. I hope the Minister will say whether or not this is so. I am far from suggesting that only second-rate persons apply for these posts, but it would be unfortunate if the best are inhibited from applying. This would be particularly the case for applicants from the United Kingdom, which is about as far from Heraklion as it is possible to get within the European Union.
ENISA was originally set up with a five-year mandate. This was extended by a further three years, expiring in March 2012. We expressed the hope that agreement could be reached well before then to extend the remit of ENISA to cover matters such as police and judicial co-operation over criminal use of the internet. Within the past two weeks, the Commission has issued two proposals. The first would simply extend the mandate by a further 18 months, expiring in September 2013. The express purpose of this is to give time for consideration of a second proposal; namely, a revision of the regulation setting up ENISA.
In its Explanatory Memorandum to the regulation, the Commission said that it had considered three options. It agreed to some expansion in the tasks of ENISA, adding law enforcement and privacy protection authorities as fully-fledged stakeholders, but it decided against adding either fighting cyberattacks or the response to cyberincidents, or supporting law enforcement and judicial authorities in fighting cybercrime. This is a rather timid move and is not in accordance with the rather bolder suggestion in our report. We expect in due course to receive from the Government their own Explanatory Memorandum of their views on this, but I should be grateful if the Minister could today give the House some indication of their thinking about an extension of ENISA’s role. What I would hope to hear is that they share our view and intend to press for further expansion of ENISA’s remit in the course of the negotiations on this proposal.
I have come to the end of what I want to say on this fast-moving topic. The United Kingdom, the EU and, indeed, the whole civilised world must keep a step ahead of potential attackers. The previous Government seem to have recognised the importance of this and to have taken decisive steps to counter the threat. I hope the Minister can confirm that the coalition Government will continue on this path and, particularly, encourage the European institutions to play a useful part. I commend the report to the House. I beg to move.
Lord Reid of Cardowan
My Lords, I am delighted to make my first speech in this Chamber, particularly in the company of my noble friend Lord Browne. I do not suggest that this is as fair a pair of maidens as has ever graced the Chamber, but I hope that our contributions will in some way illuminate the deliberations here. I am also pleased to be making my first contribution during such an important debate and discussion—albeit late in the day and late in the week. Nevertheless, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, for introducing it and the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, for the response that she will give on behalf of the Government on such an important issue.
I declare a manifest interest in these matters, as registered, not least as chair of the Institute for Security and Resilience Studies at University College London, which attempts to address some of these difficult issues.
I had the honour of serving for almost quarter of a century in another place and in one or two ministerial posts—there were about nine, actually—at the behest of the last Prime Minister but one, my friend and colleague the right honourable Tony Blair. During that time, I hope that I gained a little experience with which I can contribute in this House. I was always impressed by the wisdom of this House. The first part of that wisdom is to recognise that, when one comes here, whatever one’s experience, such is the experience already vested here that it would be extremely wise to approach the place not with pride but with a degree of humility. So I do tonight, in the company of some honourable and right honourable previous friends, now noble Lords, who have graced this Chamber with their views on security matters. I thank them and all the staff for the welcome that I received when I arrived here. It was warm; it was cordial; it was hospitable; and, for those of us who came from another place and were more used to the Jeremy Paxman approach to building relationships, it was disconcertingly fraternal from every other point of the House. I thank everyone for that.
I should also place on record my thanks to my constituents in Lanarkshire, who until the last election gave me loyalty and support for some 23 years and who in their wisdom have now chosen the baby of the other House, Pamela Nash, who, at 25 years of age, brings to the post of MP for Lanarkshire the youth, grace, dynamic approach, energy and attractiveness that have always marked Lanarkshire MPs. I wish her well. At 25, she has, I am sure, a long and very successful future in front of her.
It was in Lanarkshire, that area of coal, steel, comradeship and what we called the craic, that the character, values and world views that I now hold were first forged. It was there that I first saw, through my parents—Tommy, a postman, and Mary, a factory labourer—and our neighbours, that potent combination of features that have formed the basis of my outlook in politics. It is a combination of individual personal aspiration, community solidarity and indomitable endurance in the face of adversity. Though the material conditions that gave rise to that particular holy trinity of elements of political philosophy have now disappeared, the potency of their inherent value remains within the culture and character of this nation as a whole. Any political party that fails to realise that and abandons those three characteristics will fail to connect with the electorate. The true dynamo of our society is not the actions of politicians or the intervention of the state but the aspiration of ordinary men and women to forge a better life for themselves and their families than they inherited from their parents. The role of the state in these matters—this is part of personal security—is to act as a platform to help people to realise their ambitions. It is never to act as a substitute for those ambitions. If it ever becomes that, it will only stifle the growth and dynamism that is within the British culture.
It was also in Lanarkshire that I was first acquainted with the essential problem depicted in tonight’s debate—that of digital communication, transfer of information and cybertechnology, with all its opportunities and challenges. I want briefly to tell a story, because it illustrates how the world has changed. Just under 25 years ago, on 3 January, I set out with 12 others to walk from Gartcosh in Lanarkshire to London in an attempt to retain the Gartcosh steelworks. We believed that, if the steelworks went, that would be the precursor of the decline of steel and 25,000 jobs in Lanarkshire, as happened subsequently. As we set out on the journey, I was given—by a Scottish newspaper, the Daily Record, if I remember correctly—the latest in global human technological communications. It was called a mobile phone. It looked like a brick. It weighed the same as a brick and was just about as effective as a brick when it came to telecommunications. It had to be charged overnight for 12 hours and it lasted for two hours, provided that you did not make any phone calls. However, it was a revolutionary transformation in communications. In its essence, it was a leap change from anything that had gone before. It was the beginning of a global revolution.
I recalled that experience earlier today when I was reading the report on cyberattacks to which the noble Lord referred. In the past 25 years, we have travelled further and faster in human communications and information exchange than in all the previous millennia in aggregate. That is the true meaning of a globalised world. It is a world that is becoming more complex and more difficult to understand. It is a world in which, for the first generation, parents have been taught by their children how to communicate through the internet. But it is a world that we in this House must attempt to understand because, if we do not, we will not understand any of the problems that we face.
Perhaps I can convey it this way. I do not know how many noble Lords have read Stephen Hawking’s A Brief History of Time. I commend it to everyone in the House, although I could not understand anything beyond chapter 4. One element of it gives us a model for understanding the present world. His contention is that, if we could understand the laws that govern the movements of the smallest things in the world, or quantum mechanics, and combine them with the laws that govern the movement of the largest things—planets and the general theory of relativity—we could understand the mind of God.
I am far too modest to claim that I will explain the mind of God tonight, but if we want to understand the world in which we live we should start with the smallest thing, the microchip, and combine it with the largest process, which is globalisation. “Globalisation” is a word that it is continually used but rarely defined. It has two characteristics. It is a network world—its first characteristic is the interchange of finance, trade, goods, people and ideas, which have been enabled by digital communications. But it also has interdependence. We are now so interlinked to that network world that, if swine flu starts here, it spreads rapidly everywhere. If a financial crisis starts somewhere, within days it can spread throughout the globe. If a foreign country cuts off our energy, it can cripple us.
Nowhere is that vulnerability from interdependence clearer than in network capabilities. A few days ago, the Secretary of State for Defence pointed out, correctly, that if someone were to explode a nuclear weapon in the skies above this country, the electromagnetic pulse would bring down all our networks. That is accurate, but there are three problems with sending such a nuclear weapon. First, it is very costly. Secondly, it takes years to develop. Thirdly, people can generally tell where it came from and spot the culprit. If you wanted to bring down the electronic systems on which the whole of this country is now based, why would you send an expensive, long-developed, easily identifiable intercontinental ballistic missile when you could do it with a mobile phone? It is on one of 32 platforms that would enable you to cripple someone’s network and it is developed cheaply by other people. The great thing about sending a message on it is that you can disguise where it came from. If noble Lords think that that is big, let me tell them that in 2008 the biggest intervention of a virus in the American security system was done quite simply with a memory stick, which was given to a member of the American military/security forces. It was a handy gift; he put it in his laptop, plugged in and logged on and, within hours, the virus was all over the American security system.
Weapons that attack us no longer have to be frigates or sophisticated military systems. They do not have to be expensive and they do not have to give away the attacker. That is the nature of the problem that we are facing. As the good Lord said, it is growing exponentially. I spoke yesterday to somebody from Sophos. When noble Lords turn on their parliamentary machine, they will see that they are protected by Sophos. He told me that last year Sophos found 5,000 incidents of Malware every day among their clientele—that is, interventions of a non-benign nature. This year, there are 80,000 a day. At present, the American security system and the public sector in America receive interventions that are unsourced and unidentified to the extent of 250,000 every hour.
There is a vulnerability here that we must try to understand, although we have come late to it. I hope that, as we address it, we will remember one thing—the renowned wisdom of this House. As I said, this device is a means of production of communication but also a potential source of vulnerability, which has been learnt by children and taught by children to parents. It is to be expected in a House like this, for all our wisdom, that we might not be as au fait with technological advances as the younger generation. However, we ignore this at our peril. It should be at the front of our considerations here; I know that it is at the front of the considerations of the noble Baroness who will respond tonight and I hope that it will be at the front of the Government’s security deliberations and their conclusions next week. Above all, I hope that, in the course of that debate and in the midst of the wisdom and experience that exist already in this Chamber, I can make some contribution towards our deliberations.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, it is an enormous pleasure to follow my noble friend Lord Reid of Cardowan and his maiden speech, in the course of which he paid a very graceful tribute to his successor as Member of Parliament. He told us that she had already attained the ripe old age of 25. I am informed that the noble Lord started his political career some considerable period earlier than 25. I am told, in fact, that he led his first strike at the age of about 14 and a half when he was still at school and was objecting to the practice of the fairly disciplinarian head teacher that the children should be kept outside, irrespective of the weather, until the school started. He called a strike of his fellow pupils on the basis that, if they were not allowed in until nine o’clock, they would not go in after nine o’clock. My understanding is that he was successful in that, which demonstrates a robustness and forceful nature, which we have seen in this afternoon’s speech. However, we have also seen the noble Lord’s other side—his erudite and thoughtful nature. I understand that it is that side that comes in particularly useful in his latter-day role as chairman of Celtic Football Club, where erudition and thoughtfulness are particularly important.
The noble Lord has had 10 years in very senior roles as a member of Her Majesty's Government. He was in the last Government what I think should be described as a “big beast”, with the emphasis on some occasions on the word “beast”. I worked closely with him in a number of those roles, in particular in his time at the Home Office. One of the achievements of that period is a lasting one: the creation of the Office for Security and Counter-Terrorism. This country will learn to realise how significant and important it has been, and that is down to my noble friend. His contribution today has demonstrated the qualities of robustness and erudition that we will all expect to hear much more of in the time ahead. We do indeed look forward to many further contributions of a similar nature.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, for his introduction of the report and his work, and the work of his colleagues, in pulling together the report which we have had. It is a very important Select Committee report, and I had the privilege of sitting in on a couple of the evidence sessions to hear the discussion. As the noble Lord pointed out, we are having quite a timely debate following the reported comments of the director of GCHQ in the past few days. He has talked about the significant level of attacks on government systems, many of them precisely and deliberately targeted at those systems. The debate is unfortunately not quite as timely as it might be in that we do not yet have the benefits of the results of the security and defence review or the comprehensive spending review. We will have to wait a few more days for those. However, I hope that that fact of timing will not prevent the Minister from providing us with some more information on how the Government’s thinking on these matters is developing.
I have high hopes for the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, because I am aware of her continued personal interest in matters of cybersecurity and information assurance. I have attended so many meetings over the past few years which she has been at, and which have discussed these matters, that I know that she takes these matters extremely seriously. That includes, for example, her chairing for a period the Information Assurance Advisory Council, which brought—and continues to bring—together industry, academia and government to talk about these matters. We have high expectations of the Minister in what is going to be done in this field over the months and years to come, and I am sure that she will not disappoint us today in her response to this debate.
It is important that we recognise several elements in the issues around cyberattacks and the matters which this report has covered. A few years ago, a lot of these matters were dismissed as the actions of teenage cyberjuvenile delinquents who were merely interested in getting into systems because they were there and, perhaps, in gaining some element of self-respect by leaving their mark on those systems, proving that they had been there—a sort of petty vandalism, expressed in the cyberworld as opposed to the physical world that other juvenile delinquents might be engaged in. Yet we have to recognise that those juvenile delinquents have grown up. Some have grown out of those issues, but others have started their own criminal enterprises; some have been bought up by much more organised and serious criminal enterprises; some have, no doubt, become fundamentalist in their religious views; others are being employed by nation states. We have to recognise the scale and effectiveness of the targeting that can now be done.
We therefore have not only the continued action and vandalism of the juvenile delinquents but the issues around cyberactivism, of people trying to make a political or other point by mass cyberaction. We have small-scale crime, but more significantly we have an enormous wave of organised crime using the techniques that are now possible through the internet. That is now having an effect. We also have otherwise respectable businesses making use of these criminal techniques to inform themselves of their competitors’ activities and, indeed, trying to obtain intellectual property. Then we have state-sponsored activity, some of it at the commercial end but some of it much more about creating the opportunity to attack other nation states if that is necessary. The noble Lord, Lord Jopling, has talked about what happened to Estonia, and numerous incidents are now reported of what are perceived as being—although this is not necessarily the case—attacks sponsored by one nation state against another in this sphere. We have yet to see a serous terrorist act perpetrated through these means, but it is only a matter of time before terrorists also make use of these techniques as an adjunct, as part or as the main focus of their attack.
We therefore have to examine the issues raised by this report in a number of ways. First, while they might not quite meet the definition that the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, gave of a cyberattack, the activities of serious and organised criminality in terms of fraud and all the things that it is trying to do are of such a scale that Governments—national, Europe-wide and worldwide—should be taking them seriously and acting on them.
Secondly, we have to look at the scale of what is happening in terms of corporate raiders, intellectual property theft and the potential for industrial disruption. Again, some of this is by organised crime, but my understanding is that a significant proportion of that is carried out by nation states or at their behest.
Thirdly, and this is particularly important in terms of the responsibilities of our Government and the Minister, there are issues around the attacks on, and the vulnerability of, our own critical national infrastructure. Some of those attacks on government systems are about espionage, but some of them are about creating the potential for disruption.
I have a number of questions or issues that I hope the Minister will be able to respond to. The first relates to the sheer volume of criminality and whether as a nation we are equipping ourselves to keep up with those who are trying to defraud our citizens or otherwise cause problems. There has been a history of law-enforcement initiatives taken in this field. The National Hi-Tech Crime Unit, which was very successful, appeared to disappear when its responsibilities were taken over by the Serious Organised Crime Agency, so much so that the police had to set up a new unit, the Police Central E-Crime Unit—I declare an interest as someone who has been closely involved in that, as a member of both the Metropolitan Police Authority and the ACPO board that oversees it—which has had a series of successes, like the arrests a few months ago of the five men and one woman engaged in stealing the details of more than 10,000 bank accounts and allegedly netting themselves more than £3 million as a consequence. That unit, working with the private sector and levering in resources from it, has been remarkably successful, but it is still new and fairly fragile.
I understand that there are rumours that this unit should be subsumed into the proposed new national crime agency. I have no objection to the new agency, once it is established, maybe taking on this responsibility; it must certainly have a capacity to deal with these matters. My concern is that if we move too quickly to that process, the idea of subsuming a body that is only just beginning to work into a new body that will be going through its own birthing pains is not necessarily sensible. We have had evidence from the outgoing chief executive of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre about the fragility of those structures and the private sector funding of them. He suggested that Microsoft may propose to withdraw the resources that it puts into CEOP because of the uncertainty about its future. I hope that the Minister will give us some assurances today about the continued budget to enable the police to play their role in fighting e-crime, that we will not see the fragile new arrangements subsumed too early into a national crime agency and that there will at least be time for any national crime agency to be established, and to establish itself, before such a change takes place—if that is what happens.
The second issue was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, when he talked about the so-called Stuxnet attacks on the control systems of the Iranian nuclear power programme. I have been concerned, as have several noble Lords and others, about the vulnerability of SCADA systems to attack. Is the noble Baroness personally satisfied that enough is being done at present to protect such control systems for our critical national infrastructure, against both the sort of electronic attack that the Stuxnet attack seems to have been and the electromagnetic pulse attacks that the noble Lord, Lord Reid, referred to? He made the valid point that exploding a nuclear device might be rather a visible way of producing an electromagnetic pulse. However, there are regular cycles of sunspot activity that could produce the same sort of effects. The issue of protection remains, whether it is an external attack, a natural event or something triggered electronically.
I would also like the noble Baroness to tell us whether enough is being done to protect the intellectual property of the United Kingdom against electronic attacks. In this context, is she satisfied that the major contractors that provide services to government departments are themselves adequately protected against this sort of penetration? I have heard stories about some of those major contractors being heavily penetrated in possibly state-sponsored incidents. If that is the case it is extremely serious. It is important that the noble Baroness should give us her assurance as to what can be done.
Finally, I hope the noble Baroness will give us, in the course of her remarks, a route map that tells us who is in charge of the various key elements of this matter. Who is in charge of setting the standards of security for our critical national infrastructure? Who is responsible for attributing where attacks are coming from? Who is responsible for managing resilience and recovery, should an attack take place? Who is responsible, if necessary, for retaliation or taking out those who are carrying out these attacks?
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, for introducing this debate. I am glad that there are people who understand all this and can speak the language and handle the acronyms. I use that thought to evade the rule that there should be only one formal thanks to maiden speakers before the winders. I am very glad that we have a “big beast” who was able to get his head around the issues sufficiently to start a new area of work. I am not sure that I should refer to the Minister as a big beast other than intellectually and, to be even-handed, as someone who also has a track record in security.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, and I briefly discussed the report the other day. Although his speech did not tend in this direction, we agreed at the time that this amounted to something very serious and that something should be done. I tend to see that thought in the report, where we read:
“There was consensus among our witnesses that this was a legitimate area for the EU to be concerned about, and that it had some role to play, but there was no unanimity as to what that role should be”.
I suppose that is formal speak for the same thought.
This is a report about the EU but I entirely take the point made in the speeches we have heard so far that this is a global issue. I was not surprised to read that American witnesses were encouraging about the role of the EU as distinct from national roles. This is a global issue. The phrase “asymmetrical development” is a very polite term for describing the problem of the lowest common denominator.
This is not just about the EU and it is not just about government. As the noble Lord, Lord Harris, said, it concerns every sector from contractors to government departments and the services provided by the private sector. We heard about Northgate but utilities could be affected—the water services, to take one—and traffic lights. The list is very long indeed and it does not take a lot of imagination to get beyond the jargon and think about the real problems that a cyberattack could cause.
I very much agree with the committee that it is for the public sector to take the initiative and offer a real say to experienced internet entrepreneurs in how public/private partnerships are best developed and not leave it to the private sector to come forward with ideas.
While I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, that this is not about cybercrime, like the noble Lord, Lord Harris, I will be interested to hear from the Minister about the role of the new National Crime Agency. Behind technology of any sort are people. That comes through very clearly in the committee’s comments on ENISA. The noble Lord, Lord Harris, referred to juvenile delinquents. I sometimes wonder whether states should thank innocent or naive hackers for showing them where problems and weaknesses arise.
The other day I heard a tale from Bletchley Park about a code—not Enigma—which was cracked because the transmitter of a message in code realised that he had made a mistake and transmitted a second message correcting it. That gave those at Bletchley the material to be able to crack the code. It is individuals who can, in what might appear to be small ways, undermine the security of systems.
I, too, am interested in resilience to cyberattacks, the work that is going on and that which can be undertaken in this area—that must be harder to tackle at an international level than at a national or local level—to anticipate technological aspects and human reactions in dealing with cyberattacks. I know that I am not the only person in the Chamber who has heard about what went on immediately following the 7 July bombings. One of the problems of which we became aware pretty quickly was people’s tendency to use mobile phones and the effect that had on the mobile phone networks. It is a very human reaction to pick up a phone to find out whether one’s family is safe. I wonder whether any thought has been given to involving the media in resilience exercises. I take this lesson also from 7/7: the media have a very important role as people tend to turn on their televisions and radios.
Finally, as result of work that I and other Members of the London Assembly did following those July bombings, I keep in mind the words of the then managing director of London Underground. He said that the big lesson for us was:
“Invest in your staff, rely on them. Invest in technology, but do not rely on it”.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness in contributing to this debate. I will not follow the threads that she pulled from it because this is my maiden speech and I am constrained to be, what some might say, uncharacteristically brief. I commend her on her contribution to the debate and the issues that she picked from this helpful report—and more broadly. I, too, await the responses of the Minister to the points that she raises.
As I rise to make my maiden speech, one view is that it is a contribution to the House of Lords that I have waited 14 years to make. In 1996, I was part of the legal team that injuncted—or interdicted, as we say in Scotland—the BBC from broadcasting an interview with the then Prime Minister John Major in the context of the local government elections in Scotland. We were told after the appeal in Scotland that the BBC would take us all the way, and it was granted permission to appeal to the House of Lords. I had my foot almost on the first step of the stairs to the London shuttle when the BBC abandoned its appeal. So while it is characteristic for many maiden speakers in this House to say that they never expected to speak in the House of Lords, I suppose that in my case it could be said that my expectations have waited 14 years to be fulfilled properly.
In those 14 years, I found myself another job as I waited. It was a significant honour and a pleasure for 13 of those years to serve my constituents of Kilmarnock and Loudon in the other place. They are now represented by Cathy Jamieson, who is already an experienced Member of the Scottish Parliament, and indeed was a Minister in the Scottish Executive. She is an excellent Member of Parliament, and that is not just my view but is the view of her constituents who have granted her an even more impressive majority than the healthy majority that I enjoyed during the time that I was there.
It is a particular pleasure to speak in the debate following my noble friend Lord Reid—a habit that I have developed over the years. I shall come to that in a moment. We both learnt our politics in the robust environment of the Labour Party in the west of Scotland, and I can tell noble Lords that we have had a lot of similar experiences, but I know that his collection of anecdotes—or at least the way he tells them—are much more entertaining and certainly more exciting than mine ever were.
After re-election in 2001, my ministerial career was largely spent following my noble friend. I will always be grateful to him for the experience of working with him in the Northern Ireland Office. In many ways, that was the happiest time of my varied ministerial career and I am proud to say that I still have many friends there. That is perhaps not surprising, as my mother—an inspirational 95 year-old—hails from Warrenpoint in the stunningly beautiful County Down. My time in Northern Ireland encouraged my interest in conflict resolution; and that was reinforced by later experiences of conflicts. It is my intention to use the opportunities that my membership of your Lordships’ House generates to work in that area, among others.
My services as a Minister in the Department for Work and Pensions, the Home Office, the Treasury and the Scotland Office have all individually left their marks on me, but it was my time as the Secretary of State for Defence for two years, between 2006 and 2008, that left the greatest impression. Over my ministerial career, I have developed a significant admiration for the public service of our Civil Service. It has become fashionable to talk of “bloated public service” and of waste, but that is not my experience. In my view, we have the best civil service in the world, which is part of the construct of this land that makes us all proud to be British.
However, if my admiration for the Civil Service is substantial—and it is—my admiration for our military knows no bounds, after my experiences. The courageous selflessness of those who put their lives and health at risk in order that we can sleep safe in our beds at night deserves a form of thanks for which the English language has recently proved to be woefully inadequate. The sadness and grief that I felt when hearing the news that my friend Lieutenant-Colonel Rupert Thorneloe, the commanding officer of 1st Battalion Welsh Guards, had been killed in action in Afghanistan, was but a fraction of that suffered by his wife Sally, his precious daughters and his parents and family. The sacrifices that the families of our service men and women make in supporting them are equally worthy of our boundless gratitude.
My time as Secretary of State for Defence has left me with the conviction that disarmament is as important to our security as investment in the capability of arms. Many senior political leaders across the whole world are currently coming to the conclusion that the existence of nuclear weapons, the security challenges that they pose and the risk of their proliferation are among the greatest threats that this world faces. I agree with them. With the support of a significant number of senior Members of your Lordships' House and of the other place, I intend to devote myself to the advancement of multilateral nuclear disarmament, improvement of the non-proliferation regime and improved nuclear security.
That brings me nicely, through security, to the topic of today's debate. I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, and his committee for their deliberations and for the important and extremely valuable report that they have presented to us. As we have already heard, in recent days we have seen both an attack—we know not from where—on the computer systems running the Iranian nuclear programme and a warning from the director of GCHQ on the need to enhance the UK’s cyberwarfare capability, both offensive and defensive. The publication of the Government's strategic defence and security review is imminent. As a review, it promises to go much wider than a traditional defence review in assessing the full range of security challenges facing our country and in providing a joined-up response to those challenges. I hope that it achieves what it sets out to achieve, but the public debate currently surrounding it is has not been encouraging. Almost all of the attention, inside and outside government, appears to have focused on the overall size of the defence budget and on which big-ticket defence equipment may have to be scrapped to satisfy the Treasury. This is understandable, given the current economic and financial picture, but it does not amount to strategic thinking. I hope, and wait to be reassured, that the review is conducting that strategic thinking and that the leaks we have witnessed over months have not included it.
As I know the Minister also appreciates, a review of this kind, carried out at this point in our history, needs to focus on more than conventional defence equipment. The nature and character of conflict, and the nature and character of weaponry, is changing. This is not just about unconventional enemies using low technology weapons like those we face on occasion in Afghanistan, but also about high technology weapons being used by potential adversaries to disrupt our society in future. We may be members of NATO, the most powerful conventional military alliance on earth, but we are on occasion in danger of allowing this to generate a comforting misapprehension; namely, that our adversaries will in future engage us in conflicts that play to our strengths, not in unconventional conflicts that play to theirs. This is dangerous thinking.
When the headlines on the SDSR have faded, and the short-term budget battles are over, sober judges will ask not only what we cut but what we invested in. The real test will be whether we have invested to meet the challenges of tomorrow rather than those of yesterday.
As imminent as the publication of the defence review is that of NATO's strategic concept. That presents an opportunity to address the issue of NATO-EU co-operation. I look forward to the contribution from the Minister in the hope that she will give us some indication that the Government will regard as a priority the issue of our contribution not just to the conclusion of the review of NATO's strategic concept, but to the important communiqué that will follow it and to the summit meeting that will take place in Lisbon.
My final point may arise from my professional prejudice, but is none the less valid. One major issue that needs to be addressed in the cyberdomain is the role of the law, both domestic and international. Domestically, RIPA was drafted before the internet developed into what it is today. Our law needs regular review to ensure that it keeps up with the rapid rate of change that we are witnessing. In particular, we must find ways of making detection and prosecution easier. Internationally, in the absence of sufficient treaty law or UN statutes dealing explicitly with cyber actions, urgently we need to define the role that international law should play in covering either offensive or defensive cyber actions. I should be grateful if the Minister, who speaks for the Government and who we all know has expertise in this field, will reassure your Lordships' House that action in these fields is contemplated and will give some indication of the steps that we can expect to see in this regard.
In closing, I express my gratitude for the warmth of the welcome that I have received in your Lordships' House. In particular, I thank the staff of the House who, with unfailing courtesy and genuine kindness, have eased my transition in a way that has made me feel as welcome here as anywhere I have ever been in my life. On the day of my introduction, the courtesy and kindness that were shown to my family and guests left them with the most positive impression that will remain with them for the rest of their lives. I trust that, with these words, I have observed the conventions of the House. I respect them immensely and I look forward to engaging in debate across a wide range of subjects, almost certainly learning more than I will ever be able to contribute.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, it is a genuine pleasure to have the task of following the distinguished maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, and giving him the very warmest of welcomes. I first met the noble Lord just over a year ago when we were both members of the cross-party group that went to Washington to discuss issues of multilateral nuclear disarmament. Over our three days there, he displayed three qualities: a sense of humour that survived even a bruising encounter with Senator Jon Kyl, no friend of disarmament of any kind; affability; and the capacity to address even the most complex and technical subjects—and they do not come much more technical and complex than nuclear disarmament and cyberwarfare—in comprehensible and compelling terms. All these qualities were demonstrated today in his maiden speech. He will be a timely reinforcement to the group of former Defence Secretaries and military men in the House whose skill and experience will surely be of value when we come to address the coalition Government's defence and security policy review, due out next week. He will bring the same qualities to discussion of the issues of multilateral nuclear disarmament, to which he has already made a notable contribution as founder and convener of the top-level all-party group set up to match here the advocacy in the United States of Messrs Shultz, Kissinger, Perry and Nunn.
It can be said with a tolerable degree of certainty that this is the first serious full-scale debate in this House, or indeed in this Parliament, on how best to face up to the threat from cyberattacks. However, it will not be the last, because the target against which that threat is directed—our society’s increasing dependence on sophisticated forms of electronic communications—is continuing to grow at a frantic pace which shows no sign of slacking; because that is a worldwide phenomenon which increases the vulnerability of every country in the world; and because the target, as it grows, is likely to become softer unless effective countermeasures and increased resilience can be devised.
To believe that that target will not be at risk in circumstances of heightened international tension or open hostilities would be a triumph of hope over experience. Therefore, this report is surely a timely one—a very necessary reminder of the need for sustained effort at the national, European and wider international levels if we are to deal with that vulnerability. I pay tribute, in particular, to my predecessor as the chair of the sub-committee which produced the report, the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, for the masterly way in which he guided our deliberations and shaped our report, and for his introduction to this debate.
First, I shall say a word about the scope of the report. We were guided, as we had to be, by the EU document that we were examining. That document limited itself to cyberattacks. It did not, therefore, cover cybercrime at all and so nor does our report. However, cybercrime is already a massive enterprise. As usual, the criminals have moved more rapidly to capitalise on the opportunities offered by technological advances than the law enforcers have developed ways of frustrating them and bringing them to justice. Therefore, the scale and nature of the problems faced by us and by other states are a great deal larger and more complex than those that are covered in this report.
This new threat from cyberattacks, which is covered in the report, is in almost every way quite different from most other threats that we have faced, and so will need to be our response. If it resembles any other threat, it is perhaps closer to the one that we faced from nuclear weapons in the early years after their discovery, when we did not have a clear idea of what response would work best and whether deterrence would be effective. I am indebted for that analogy to Professor Joseph Nye of Harvard, whose paper, Cyber Power, was published in May of this year and which I commend for its clarity of thought.
Of course, that analogy is not exact—analogies never are. But just as the doctrine of mutually assured destruction has driven us back towards serious work on nuclear disarmament, the realisation that massive retaliation against cyberattacks could well be a cure worse than the disease, risking bringing the whole or large parts of the internet system down in its wake, should push us in a similar direction. The asymmetry of threats from nuclear weapons in the hands of terrorists, which makes nonsense of earlier deterrence doctrines, is matched in some ways by the inherent asymmetry of threats from cyberattacks, where state origin is so easy to conceal, as we have seen in the cases of Estonia and Georgia, and perhaps now in the case of the Stuxnet attacks on Iran.
This analysis points, as does our report, to the need for a much intensified international dialogue between the main players—the US, the EU and its principal member states, of which the UK is one, China, Russia and a few others—about how best to understand and how best to counter the risks from cyberattacks. Out of better understanding could come better countermeasures and less reliance on what may prove to be faulty doctrines of deterrence. Would all this lead on to international agreements or treaties, or, rather, would it consist in a system of close consultation and confidence-building measures? I suspect that it is too soon to say. Much will depend on the willingness of the main players to work together and to recognise a common interest in avoiding cyberattacks. After all, every cyberattack, however well concealed in its origin, begins in some state's jurisdiction. The willingness of states to act in a co-operative manner is, therefore, crucial. I hope that the Minister will feel able to respond to that analysis when she replies to the debate.
Apart from these wider international considerations, our report focuses naturally on the EU dimension. Here both the report and the Government’s very constructive response reveal much common ground. Although national security remains a national responsibility, the UK has an important interest in strengthening the resilience of all 26 member states against cyberattacks and some of them are clearly not well prepared at all. As a member state which is better prepared than most, we could and should play an important role in strengthening overall resilience. After all, these are our biggest markets and our most integrated partners and there should be an opportunity for the UK to play a leading role. It was a welcome sign that all our Commission and ENISA witnesses, as well as those from outside Government, seemed to share that analysis and to welcome a very active British role. I hope that the Minister will confirm that we will do just that; we will do what we can to make Europe-wide training exercises and the testing of systems a real success.
On ENISA and the possible widening of its mandate in the review of its activities which is now taking place, I thought that there was a rather grudging tone in the Government's response, which perhaps is a reflection of financial concerns. But using ENISA to strengthen the European response to cybercrime would surely make sense. Cybercrime does not stop or start at our borders. Weak handling of it elsewhere in the EU will impact negatively on us too, so I hope that the Government will think again about that and will take a positive attitude towards an extension of ENISA’s mandate. Of course, the siting of ENISA in Heraklion should never have happened and it would be good if the Government would confirm that that sort of aberrant decision will not be repeated. All the evidence that we received indicated that ENISA was valued by practitioners and was rated as doing a good job, so the case for putting it to better use would seem to be quite compelling.
In conclusion, I would like to pay tribute to the previous Home Office Minister, the noble Lord, Lord West, who is not in his place, and whose evidence to the committee was frank and valuable. We look forward to maintaining that relationship with his successor; I hope that the noble Baroness will keep the Committee closely informed of developments in this area of EU activity. We look forward to taking evidence from her when the occasion justifies it.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friends Lord Reid and Lord Browne on their powerful contributions to this debate, which augur well for the future of the House. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, for his chairmanship of the sub-committee, of which I am a relatively new member, and for securing this important and timely debate in your Lordships’ House. His stewardship and guidance were models of how an inquiry should be chaired.
Cybercrime is a growing threat to us all. In my experience, the criminal fraternity will always find new ways to achieve its objectives by harnessing new technology and resources to try to outwit the forces of law and order. Every week, we read of new fraudulent scams to relieve the citizens of Europe, and the world, of their hard-won savings or the use of the internet to groom and subsequently abuse our children. We also hear of new squads being set up by law enforcement agencies to deal with those threats. Indeed, as has been mentioned, we heard only this week from the head of GCHQ that the Government are the target of a thousand malicious e-mails each month. Of course, that figure is increasing in line with the growth of the internet by some 60 per cent each year. It follows that these criminal entrepreneurs—that is what they are—will be recruited by intelligence services of ill disposed foreign powers to penetrate the computer systems of the liberal democracies, epitomised by the European Union countries, either to obtain secret intelligence or to damage defence systems or the basic infrastructure, which we take for granted, of the country being attacked.
We all get unwanted e-mails. I will always remember that, a few years ago, when I first came into this House, there was a debate on spam messages in your Lordships’ House. I recall a very elderly Member of your Lordships’ House, who is unfortunately no longer with us, rising to berate the Government of the day for doing nothing about them. He said: “They are always advertising the same products: body enhancements, Viagra or inkjet cartridges”. He finished by saying indignantly, “My Lords, do I look like a man who requires inkjet cartridges”?.
Our inquiry heard evidence from a number of individuals and organisations, but it is fair to say that we were disappointed by the response to our call for evidence. None the less, we should thank those who responded and gave time to assist us in our deliberations. I am pleased that the Government’s response is broadly in agreement with the committee in its criticism of the Commission. Through our examination of specific examples of cyberattacks or disasters, it became evident that, although major disruption can be caused, Great Britain is indeed a leader in Europe in dealing with such disruption; others may well follow.
If the EU is seen as a club, the club rules should set standards for dealing with cyberdisruptions or attacks that all member states should aspire to uphold. We are only as strong as our weakest link. Unlike the European Union and the states within it, the internet has no borders and, in a global economy, with multinational corporations using the internet for business, it is imperative that we have a global response to large-scale cyberattacks or disasters. The development of international rules that are properly policed would deter some countries from turning a blind eye, for whatever reason, to such attacks from within their borders.
The Commission communication was therefore a little disappointing in its lack of global response to the growing threat. To attempt to bring down a nation’s communications system, transport or banking structure is tantamount to an act of war and it would be legitimate for an organisation such as NATO to be brought into play. Not only would that be using the collective wisdom and resources of the alliance countries, but it would act as a powerful deterrent, as it has to conventional threats. The Commission report was almost silent on that. There may be some value in holding joint exercises in that area to reinforce the essential need for more co-operation among NATO countries. In my experience, it is essential for member states to carry out exercises in this area to enable them to participate more fully in future joint efforts.
The European Network and Information Security Agency, ENISA, has been mentioned. It is an important body and exercised the committee greatly, because policing the internet and dealing with criminal enterprises in this area is important. It is to be hoped that the resources can be found to reinforce ENISA so that it can extend its role. Needless to say, I am rather disappointed once again with the lukewarm response to the committee’s recommendations, which seems to raise doubts about the existence of the agency. Perhaps in reply the Minister could give us further assurance on that.
Cybercrime and terrorist attacks are a fascinating subject and I have little doubt that they will exercise us in our deliberations in the months and years to come. As we used to say in the police service, the six “p”s apply: proper planning prevents pretty poor performance. I hope that our deliberations in this area add value to planning to prepare to deal with these matters before they happen.
Viscount Waverley
My Lords, I apologise for rising in the gap. One aspect of today’s debate that could be usefully underlined is the need to ramp up co-operation with countries and regions where we have strategic interests and which are themselves at risk, whether because of direct interests in energy supplies, for example, or indirectly through narcoterrorists funding a low-cost cyberattack capability, which would be cheap in relation to the mayhem that can be caused. The central Asia and Caucasus region contains ever growing strategic infrastructure that one way or another does or will serve Europe. The Baku-Ceyhan pipeline is one example. It is doubly more pressing as it is in exactly this region where, some say, the majority of cyberattacks originate.
Two immediate difficulties exist: resources within those regions to counter the problem and the lack of sufficient exchange of information among intelligence communities as a result of insufficient in-depth bilateral co-operation. I hope that an immediate effect of the Foreign Secretary’s visit to Moscow will be closer co-operation among our respective intelligence communities. That, in turn, would lead to Russia ceasing to apply pressure on opposite numbers within central Asia and the south Caucasus to be unco-operative with western interests. It should be remembered that central Asia and the south Caucasus are, after all, Russia’s backyard. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, mentioned Lisbon. Can the Minister inform us whether Russia has now agreed to attend? That country must be included in debate on international affairs. To improve the situation immediately, I urge the Minister to encourage the sending of representatives at Secretary of State level to Kazakhstan’s December heads of state OSCE summit in Astana, with a possibility of a one-day or two-day extension for bilaterals. This would be viewed as the United Kingdom working for mutual benefit.
I listened carefully to the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Jopling. The committee and the Home Office appear to agree that cybersecurity is a global phenomenon and requires globally co-ordinated action. The EU appears to be on track in combating the threat of cyberterrorism with its ENISA proposals of 30 September. However, more should be done on basic concepts and on a mid-term to long-term strategy, particularly in regard to an integrated approach including all major players. The Minister could be encouraged to ramp up the debate and implement initiatives at at least G20 level.
In conclusion, a simple analogy to reinforce the case for global endeavours is to compare the threat of cyberterrorism to the threat of the banking sector. We now know that one bank failing can have a catastrophic global impact. The same can apply to the world of cyberterrorism. I do not wish to appear alarmist, but I fear that, whereas suicide bombings have been the weapon of choice in certain quarters, carefully targeted cyberattacks will be the weapon in tomorrow’s world.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, I am the final warm-up act before the much referred to and much awaited speech by the Minister. I wish to add my thanks to those already expressed to the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, for the work that he and his sub-committee have undertaken in producing such an informative report into a subject of ever increasing importance and concern. Those concerns have been reflected by every Member of your Lordships' House who has spoken with authority in this debate. I also congratulate my noble friends Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord Browne of Ladyton on their, as anticipated, impressive and thought-provoking speeches, which gave us the benefit of their considerable and real expertise and knowledge in this field.
The noble Lord, Lord Jopling, in his helpful and informative opening speech, drew attention to the key findings in the report, including the issue of the part that the European Union can usefully play in protecting Europe against large-scale cyberattacks. It was certainly of some comfort to read that the committee did not feel that this was an area where our Government, in relation to our own country, were being complacent. As the noble Lord, Lord Hannay of Chiswick, said, the witnesses from whom the committee took both oral and written evidence generally thought that the United Kingdom had sophisticated defences compared to most other states.
To quote from the report, the European Network and Information Security Agency, referring to mechanisms for dealing with internet incidents, had stated that,
“the UK, along with a limited number of other Member States, is considered a leader in this area with developed practices that set benchmarks for others to adopt”.
Continued vigilance and development will be necessary to ensure that that continues to remain the case.
There has, of course, been a change of Government since the report was concluded. While we have read their written response, I hope that we will hear more from the Minister when she responds about the views of the new Government on the report and the serious issues it raises, and the extent to which the Government do or do not agree with the stance adopted by the previous Administration in their evidence to the sub-committee. In their reply of 6 July 2010 to the report, the Government state:
“While we are in agreement that cyber security is a significant and increasing facet of national security, the present Government is in the process of reviewing whether there are things we can do better or differently to achieve the same national security goal; that this is likely to extend to the European Union”.
It would be helpful if the Minister could explain what that statement means in practical terms. When did the review start? Who is undertaking the review? When will the review be complete? Will its findings be made public? What “things”—that is the word that the Government use—are being looked at to see if they can be done better or differently to achieve what is referred to as the “same national security goal”? Finally on that paragraph, what exactly is it that is,
“likely to extend to the European Union”?
A number of UK organisations and bodies with independent expertise are referred to in the report and in the Government’s response. Will the Minister confirm that these bodies will survive the forthcoming cull?
In their response, the Government say that they will remain actively involved in the discussions under way at the European level on the role for the European Union and that they support the committee’s recommendation that this should be focused on the promotion of best practice and on reducing the gap between the most advanced and the less advanced member states. As has been said on more than one occasion today, cyber does not recognise national or European Union boundaries but is also a global threat. We need our international partnerships and alliances, since we have common interests with other responsible nations in sharing information on threats and vulnerabilities.
The Government recognise that the prevention of cyberattacks has an important international dimension. They state:
“In developing a new cyber security strategy, the Government is putting significant resource into having a strong and proactive role in this”.
What are the objectives of this new cybersecurity strategy that it is felt may not currently be being addressed or need updating? Is it part of the “process of reviewing” referred to in the third paragraph of the Government’s response, to which I referred earlier?
The importance of this debate and the importance and relevance of the committee’s report has been further enhanced in the light of the speech the other day, to which the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, referred, by the director of GCHQ on cybersecurity. He said, as did the committee in its report, that this was not solely a national security or defence issue but went to the heart of our economic well-being and national interest. The committee’s report, as the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, highlighted, gives examples of cyberattacks that have occurred which seek to strike at the heart of a country’s ability to function. The GCHQ director added further weight to this point in relation to our own country when he said that the threat of cyberattacks to disrupt seriously critical national infrastructure,
“is a real and credible one”.
He also said that:
“There are over 20,000 malicious emails on Government networks each month, 1,000 of which are deliberately targeting them ... that we have seen the use of cyber techniques by one nation on another to bring diplomatic or economic pressure to bear ... we have seen the theft of intellectual property on a massive scale, some of it not just sensitive to the commercial enterprises in question but of national security concern too ... and that the risks in all these areas are growing along with the enormous growth of the Internet. At the moment it’s expanding by about 60% a year”.
This includes growth stimulated by the Government as they seek to get services online, not least in response to an increasing public expectation that services will be available in this way. The expectation is that within the next few years, online tax and benefit payment systems could be processing over £100 billion-worth of payments at a time when the increasing cost of e-crime to the economy runs into billions of pounds and organised groups attack not just commercial targets but also online tax systems across Europe.
The GCHQ director commented that cyberspace is contested every day, every hour, every minute, every second, and that he could vouch for that from the displays in his own operations centre of minute-by-minute cyberattempts to penetrate systems around the world. He went on to say that:
“Ministers are looking, in the context of the Strategic Defence and Security Review and the Spending Review, at what capabilities the United Kingdom needs to develop further”,
and added that:
“Clearly they will also be deciding how they trade off against other spending priorities”.
Perhaps the Minister could answer the question that the director in effect posed—namely, how high a priority compared with other spending priorities does this Government give to providing the necessary resources to ensure that this country continues to be protected effectively from cyberattacks?
I conclude by congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, and his committee on a thorough, thoughtful and informative report which has rightly raised the profile of this important and, indeed, worrying issue.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville-Jones)
My Lords, I join other Members of the House in thanking my noble friend Lord Jopling for introducing this debate and for his committee’s report. It has enabled us to have what I think has been a rather wide-ranging discussion of the issues. He rightly said that it is one of the first extensive debates we have had on cyber generally and, in particular, on cybersecurity. I join noble Lords in welcoming the two noble Lords who made their maiden speeches and say how valuable their comments have been. We look forward to further discussions, and no doubt we will be talking about this subject in the future. I think that we have a House that has a considerable contribution to make, and our new Members have certainly increased our capability.
I should also like to point out that the noble Lord, Lord Reid, set up the Office for Security and Counter-terrorism in the Home Office which continues to function to this day and plays a central role in counterterrorism generally, while cybersecurity impinges on it. As everyone knows, capabilities for cyber are located mainly in the Cabinet Office, and indeed it was my predecessor the noble Lord, Lord West, under whom the Office of Cyber Security and the Cyber Security Operations Centre came into being. They have provided a central capability in government for the first time, and the Government are building on those structures. I pay tribute to our predecessors for starting down this road; we intend to contribute and to build on it. There is no doubt that the saliency of cybersecurity is increasing greatly.
The first thing we did in the Office of Cyber Security was to make a small but significant move in joining the strategy of cybersecurity and information assurance together. It seemed to us that these were closely related subjects and that it made no sense to keep them separate. Information assurance—which is provided not only by patching but also by people—is a key element in increasing our level of security. In his speech yesterday, the director-general of GCHQ Cheltenham said that we could deal with 80 per cent of our vulnerabilities if we increased good practice. Obviously good practice, to a significant extent, comprises keeping up systems and ensuring that they remain as invulnerable as possible. This also depends upon the human element. It is extremely important that if the Government purport to take a lead in this area—which I believe they should—they should themselves be an example of good practice. So one of the things we will do is increase the emphasis inside government and preach the message of information assurance nationally as being a contribution we need.
One element which has not been mentioned, but which we regard as an integral part of national security, is that we should increase capability in the population as a whole and encourage the use of good practice by ordinary users of computers. Indeed, we should up skill our population and, in particular, the level of expertise that we will need in the future for both maintaining and developing systems. We do not have enough people. A major contribution should come from the academic community, and the Government will certainly support that. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Reid, has a strong interest in that area. It would be a valuable contribution if a good deal were to be said about these subjects; we need someone to talk about them and we should keep them in our minds all the time. This would be a way of incentivising younger people to enter what is and will remain an exciting and expanding domain.
In referring to the SDSR, I am rather constrained by the timing of the debate. In one sense it is very good because it comes at a moment when we are thinking about this subject; unfortunately it comes just before the publication of the SDSR and I am unable to say everything that I would like to. However, I should like to give an indication of the direction of our thinking.
A number of important points were made—including by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, who made the key point that the nature of conflict is changing. Although this certainly applies to the battlefield, in a sense, it also applies to society. There is no such thing as a valid distinction of any real kind between how we deal with the threats and challenges to our country abroad if we do not also deal with them at home. Conversely, in order to diminish their significance and threat to us at home, we need to act abroad—the so-called upstream. In this, cybersecurity is key to our military capabilities on the battlefield and to our navy. It is no good having your carriers protected by your frigates and your submarines if the whole shooting match has lost its communications; it is dead in the water. Similarly, at home, we will not succeed in defeating a cyber-enabled terrorist enemy if our own communications are vulnerable. We need to be able to disrupt them, not them to disrupt us. This is the new national frontier. It offers very exciting, interesting and intellectually challenging opportunities for younger people and it is of great import to the nation.
National security is a totality of security, whether at home or abroad, and cyber is a central element in it. Though I cannot unfortunately give detail, I hope that the House will agree when it sees it that we have given due prominence and priority to the cyber element of our strategy.
Iain Lobban laid out the threat—I shall not repeat what he said, because it was put extremely cogently as well as accurately. However, the threat has a number of elements. There is indeed the threat of state-led espionage, which is theft by states. They are out for our valuable intellectual property, which they can then use for their own ends and possibly turn against us. This is a serious threat. We have also the activities of the non-state actors, who use cyberspace as an enabler. It is our task to disrupt them, too. In both cases, as has been said, you have real difficulty of attribution and, correspondingly, difficulty in knowing how to respond. We need to work on the issue of attribution, because, if we do not, we will never succeed in having a sufficient volume of successful prosecutions to act as a deterrent. However, we should recognise that attribution is quite difficult and that there are other things that we need to do at least at the same time but preferably earlier because they are within our domain. That constitutes better defences, better deterrence and the capability for counterdisruption. We need to be able to patrol our frontier.
There is a feature of patrolling our frontier which is very simple but which points up some the difficulties that we face. When I visited the NSA, it was said to me that relatively few practitioners and security officers in large corporations, and even in corporations which are internet providers, know what the configuration of their system is when it is operating normally and according to the rules. So if you do not know what it should look like when it is operating according to its own rules, you are most unlikely to spot when there is anomalous behaviour. But spotting anomalous behaviour is your first line of defence. We keep on coming back to the need for those skills.
It is a feature of modern, strategic national security thinking that, very quickly, the strategic descends to the nitty-gritty of operation, because you cannot succeed in your strategy unless you go right down into the weeds. It is one of the more difficult parts of the challenges that we face and it is certainly the case in the cyber area.
Clearly, another part of our approach has to be a focus on closing our vulnerabilities. The issue of our approach to the law was raised. We need to bring in law enforcement. I am more cautious about the question of operating within legal frameworks when it comes to trying to regulate the international scene. That is not to say that we can never have a valid convention. Certainly, the idea that we could have a convention that gives us the rules of the road instead of simply codes of conduct is an extremely attractive proposition. But you have to be confident of two things. First, that those who sign conventions will actually then obey their precepts and not seek to go outside them while you observe the rules. Otherwise, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage. Secondly, in that situation, you need to be able to ensure that you can verify what they are doing. It adds to your vulnerability when you have people signing up who may not be entirely trustworthy.
With the old-fashioned, legitimate arms control that I and many noble Lords grew up with, you could go out and verify how many missiles you had because you could count them. This is more difficult. We return to the problem of attribution. I am cautious about the notion that conventions in so immature an area would serve our interests. I am keener on the notion that we seek to close our vulnerabilities and ensure that we defend ourselves adequately nationally. We must also propagate best practice among others who are linked to us and who may be less well equipped. I will come in a moment to international co-operation.
Another part of our strategy is dealing with crime. The noble Lord, Lord Harris, asked whether we are doing enough and the answer is no. We are not doing enough and we have to up our act. We heard that from Sir Paul Stephenson, in terms, a couple of days ago. We have not yet taken a decision on precisely what will happen to the e-crime unit and the position it will have in relation to the National Crime Agency. However, I can say—and I mean this—that it has to be and will be a priority. This sort of crime is theft. It is plain stealing. There is no such thing as victimless crime. People who suffer a major wipe-out through the swiping of their identities can have the greatest difficulty in getting their money back and in establishing their credentials and their financial position again. These are big issues. That is one side of things. We do not know the figures. The potential losses and the span of brackets that we have for the estimates show us that frankly we do not know the full costs because we have very little handle at the moment on the level of losses. It is certainly true that government agencies are becoming rather more conscious and getting a better handle on what they may be losing. As a matter of economic cost to the nation, we are still a long way from understanding exactly what is happening.
Focusing resources on detection and on international co-operation is a crucial part of following any crime chain and this is a classic area where there is international contact and an international link. There are few big scams and crimes that do not have a significant international dimension. An attack that takes place in the United Kingdom could originate in another country, so you cannot bring people to justice without the help of others overseas. The answer is that we are barely at the starting gate and in this whole area the House will agree that we are still doing baby steps.
Points were raised in the debate about the vulnerability of our critical national infrastructure. Our predecessors in office did a great deal of serious work in this area but there is still more to be done. The NPIA—I am not sure that I have got that acronym right, but I mean the agency with responsibility for protecting the national infrastructure, which is the office that springs from the Security Service—has a powerful relationship these days with a number of the really strategic elements in the national infrastructure and gives advice. It has helped infrastructure operators to upgrade their performance.
That brings me to one of the major points that I wish to make. I was asked whether we are doing well enough in these areas. I do not think that we are doing badly, but there is clearly more to do. One thing that absolutely stands out when you start to think about cyber is, while the Government must take the lead, where the responsibility will lie. It will lie with the Government, including ensuring that we retain our national capabilities. But we are clearly not going to be able to have an effective national platform, which not only protects the operation of our society but gives us economic advantage internationally, so people decide to invest in the United Kingdom because they know that it has secure communications that they can trust, except in partnership with the private sector. By that I mean not simply getting the private sector to pay or do what we want; I mean a partnership, and developing policy with the private sector. We need to do it at the strategic level, with the direction in which we need to go, and we need both a general and a sectoral approach. We go back to the fact that the strategic level descends extremely quickly to the operation consequence. We need to have a partnership that does both strategy and operational co-operation, whereby the Government’s technical expertise can be brought to bear to help to ensure that private sector operators and companies have the cybersecurity that they and the nation needs for business continuity.
I am trying to paint an approach on the part of Government that is perhaps holistic and which takes all the issues and tries to put them together. We are further ahead in some aspects than others, and when we are not so far ahead we need to catch up. I hope that we have at least analysed what we need to do. There is a significant road to go down.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, asked about the role of the media, which gives me the opportunity to say something about an important aspect. The media are important as they are our means of communication in these issues. They are also absolutely vital to government in an emergency. One thing that we need to be able to do and which we will do is to exercise—and everybody who has been in government knows just how important exercising is. That goes right across the board. One thing that you come across when you start is that you can conduct very few exercises without the electronic and cyber element being an extraordinarily important part of getting through. Making sure that in and of itself we are testing our cyber capabilities and our vulnerabilities is an important part of underpinning other forms of exercising that we do for emergency prevention and preparation.
I was asked about the role of ENISA and the Government’s attitude to it. There is no doubt about the Government’s support for the continuing operation of ENISA. Its life has not been made easy by putting it in Heraklion, and one could perhaps wish otherwise. I gather that the Greek Government are putting in place some facilities in Athens, which will make it a bit easier for people to get there. It is probably fair to say that they have managed to recruit the staff, although they have not made it easy for ENISA staff to travel. But those who know the Union do not think that it is likely that we will be able to change that, so I think that the fact that there are some offices in Athens is probably the way to build. As for its role, we agree that it has done good work. It is a very small agency with a not very big budget. It is being proposed now that it should have quite a significant increase in its budget. Our view of that is: “Give us the reasons why—a justification. We actually want to see what you think you would do with it”. We agree that it potentially has useful roles in the area of crime prevention and of linking up, in the cyberarea, the role of other enforcement agencies such as Europol, and of making them more powerful and effective.
ENISA can do what we hope to do in the national security strategy, which is to bring the elements together. That is a classic co-ordination role and an important and valuable one in this area, given that the elements at the moment are so dispersed and that the performance between member states is so highly variable. The whole notion of bringing others up, who are not as operational but who can represent a weakness in the system, is an important part of what can be done for us. Your Lordships may be assured that we take ENISA seriously.
Similarly, we take NATO seriously. NATO is developing its concept and there is quite a debate going on, as I understand it, about all those things that might fall under the heading of Article 4—the solidarity article, if I can put it that way. To some extent, cyber falls in that area. Personally, I take the view that I would very much like to see NATO active in this area. I gather that the military committee is now beginning a discussion of what NATO might be doing. That is wholly to be welcomed, as is the possibility of NATO-EU co-operation in this area. We all know that there are bigger issues—or, at any rate, other issues—that prevent that from happening, which are wholly contrary to the interests of the member states of both organisations and the organisations themselves. That is one thing that we have not yet succeeded in cracking.
There is also almost certainly a division of responsibility to be found between the two organisations. Your Lordships will be aware that—and we are not alone in this—we do not particularly wish to see the EU get into things labelled “national security”, although I have taken the view that national security is, rightly, rather a big term and that there will be things that the EU can undoubtedly do to contribute to the success of our collective national security. I believe that NATO will also have a role, which I hope it will seize, because I believe that there are important things to be done, particularly in Europe. That will also strengthen the collective approach.
I am told that time is up. Indeed, I have come to the end. Implicit in all that I have been saying is what a number of noble Lords have mentioned: we need strong international co-operation in international organisations, just as we need bilateral co-operation between the competent agencies.
Lord Jopling
My Lords, as we come to the end of the week’s business, I shall delay the House for only a very short time. First, let me say how grateful I am, as I am sure the committee will be, for the kind and generous remarks made to me and about the committee’s report. I think that I have heard no criticism at all of the report; indeed, there has been generous approval of it. There is no doubt in my mind that this topic—cyberwar or cybercrime, whatever it be—will recur fairly regularly in our discussions in this House. I was particularly glad to hear the Minister saying that we need to talk about it and I hope that we shall.
The contributions today demonstrate that there is a good deal of expertise on this issue lurking within the House. That brings me particularly to the two maiden speakers, the noble Lords, Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord Browne of Ladyton. I spoke earlier about our anticipation of their speeches. They have given us an example both of the broad view of this problem and of their great expertise, having been Defence Secretaries in the past. We are most grateful to them and we look forward to hearing them both regularly on this and other issues in future.
I thank the Minister for her comprehensive summing up. I was particularly pleased to hear, in the latter part of her speech, what she said about ENISA and NATO. I have probably said enough at the end of this debate, except to say that I beg to move.