Banking in Scotland

Julian Smith Excerpts

Thursday 14th October 2010 Westminster Hall

[Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. Before the sitting, you set me the task of seeing whether I could mention Bermuda at some point in my speech. I am not sure how I shall manage that, but no doubt some opportunity will come up.

The debate is somewhat unusual in as much as it refers to a report produced in the previous Parliament that has been responded to by the Government in a new Parliament. Relatively few members of the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs have survived from the previous Parliament, but two, at least, are here. The new members wanted to make it clear that the report was not necessarily something they were involved with—just in case there was any blame to be distributed, and in case there was a Whip here who might in some way take offence at anything that might have been said. They are still at an age when they are in awe of the Government whipping process. I hope that they feel thoroughly cleared by that caveat.

I want to start by referring to the final recommendation from the Committee, which called on the successor Committee to continue to take the matter forward, and keep it under review and supervision. I am glad that we have today’s debate as the first step in doing that, and that the Committee has already agreed to seek further information from the banks. Once we have studied that, I hope that we shall go on to seek further information from several other organisations that we discussed previously, to see how matters have progressed since the report was produced.

This is a quite fast-moving situation. What we said in February drew on hearings that had taken place in December 2009 and in January. We reported in February and there was a Government report in July, and things are not necessarily the same now. Because of the importance of the banking industry to economic life in Scotland, we want to keep the matter under review. I understand that the Minister’s reputation does not put him among the worst of the Conservative Ministers—[Laughter.] I notice that he disputes that. I hope he will be prepared to work with us on an ongoing iterative relationship to keep the banks under review.

One of the generic problems, I suppose, of the Scottish Affairs Committee is that as a territorial Committee it is not our role to stray into general areas that are properly the remit of other Committees. Just as, in the work that we did on the forthcoming measures on the alternative vote and the changing of boundaries, we restricted ourselves to seeking advice and information from people on the aspects of the matter affecting Scotland alone, so, in the present case, we have sought not to duplicate the work of the Treasury Committee, but to restrict ourselves to considering those aspects that impinge on Scotland. We have looked, therefore, at the impact on Scotland in the context of the banking crisis.

I want to start by setting the report in the context of the banking crisis, a year or so ago. We would all, I think, accept that many of our economic difficulties now flow from the banking crisis. I remember Alex Salmond, as First Minister in Scotland, condemning the “spivs and speculators” who at that time were bringing down the Royal Bank of Scotland; unfortunately, he was not prepared to concede that the spivs and speculators involved were working for the bank at the time. I think that he was looking at the crisis that engulfed the Scottish banks as being of external origin, rather than having been to a great extent home-grown in those banks.

Those who brought down the Scottish banks were in them, working for them, gambling for them and mismanaging their money. We now have the responsibility of moving forward from that. The banks brought a crisis on themselves, but they brought it on the rest of us as well. The impact of the spending review next week will be very much influenced by that—indeed, more by that than by any other single factor.

It is undoubtedly a source of some shame to me as a Scot, and, I am sure, to many others of my Scottish colleagues, that a situation that developed at the Royal Bank of Scotland and the Bank of Scotland resulted in the need for a bail-out—a rescue—by the Bank of England. The Bank of England should perhaps more properly be referred to as the Bank of Britain in this context. It was of course founded by a Scot, and therefore we do not need to feel quite the same guilt that we might have felt had we been bailed out by an external body. Of course, the way in which the Bank of England, acting on behalf of the British Government, was able to ride to the defence and support of the Scottish banks in crisis, demonstrates yet again the strength of the Union and the importance of Scotland’s remaining in it.

We must draw a number of lessons from bank failures and the bad behaviour of banks. The main one that the Committee drew at the time in question was that banks and bankers cannot be trusted to do the right thing unless they are under constant supervision. Where the previous Government went wrong was in the fact that new Labour, who in my view were unduly keen to suck up to big money, accepted the consensus, prevalent at the time, that regulation was in principle a bad thing that should be minimised.

I make that criticism of the Government whom I supported, as a valuable lesson, I hope, to new members of the Committee, so that they will understand that it is possible to be a member of a Select Committee and on occasion to be critical of the Government. I hope that that lesson will be supported by the Minister. If Committees are to work properly, there must be occasions when even the mildest criticism of the party to which one belongs is allowed. I hope that I shall be allowed that latitude here today.

Light-touch regulation became the mantra. New Labour was pressed all around by the then Opposition—now the leading party in the Government—the Scottish National party, the CBI and the City; all of them called for less and lighter regulation, and new Labour went along with that. The bankers ran wild, the system collapsed and we are now in a situation where ordinary people are left to bear the burden. The main lesson that we should draw—I hope the Minister agrees—is that we need to move away from an emphasis on minimising the examination of banks’ conduct and on a lack of intervention when they behave in a way that is not conducive to the development of the economy and the relationships we would want within it.

External influence, and the way it needs to be controlled, is beyond the purview of the Scottish Affairs Committee. Therefore we imposed a self-denying ordinance that we would not make recommendations on those matters. I intend to stick with that approach today, although some of my colleagues who have more flexibility in the debate may want to comment.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the coalition Government have made some excellent steps in firming up regulation, particularly with the proposals to put the Bank of England absolutely at the centre of the new regulatory regime? I am pleased that he seems to think that a good idea.

[Mr Davidson]

Yes, I agree with the general thrust of those remarks by my colleague, who is a new member of the Scottish Affairs Committee. I am sure that the Whips Office will have noted that he is keen to draw attention to something that has been done by the Government and with which I generally agree.

The new Government have followed on from the changed policy of the previous Government, who moved away from being quite slack in terms of focusing on the work of the banks, to being much more rigorous and controlling. The new Government are continuing that process. I welcome that; there is no point trying to identify disagreements that do not exist. There are enough disagreements that do exist without suggesting that we disagree on everything. There is substantial agreement in this area and I hope that we can build on it.

During our investigations, we held 10 hearings over seven days and received 16 written reports, all of which were helpful. We also visited the Republic of Ireland. For the younger hon. Members, I should say that was in the days when there was a fashionable concept, of which little is heard now, called the arc of prosperity, which was very much discussed in Scotland.

The general idea of the arc of prosperity was that if Scotland became independent it would become like Ireland and Iceland. For some reason that I do not entirely understand, that is no longer raised by Scottish National party Members of Parliament as much as it used to be. [Interruption.] We have just been joined by a SNP Member. Let me tell the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) that the arc of prosperity is no longer raised as much as it once was, largely because it is no longer there.

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[Mr Davidson]

It is unrealistic to expect that many in Ireland would want to return to being part of the UK, because people there felt that they wanted independence for Ireland even if it impoverished them. Many people we met recognised that, in many ways, they were becoming more of a colony of the UK now than they had been, because high streets in Ireland were run by Tesco and WH Smith, for example.

A relatively small number of Irish businesses seemed to have a presence and they no longer had influence on the UK. People there were unhappy that they no longer had control over their own currency, because, like the SNP, they wanted to—and did—join the euro, which meant that they were unable to devalue competitively in a way that might have produced a boost for their economy. There was much weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, as perhaps the Irish are prone to do, about that issue.

There is no doubt that the difficulties faced by the Irish Government and people were exacerbated by Ireland’s being a stand-alone economy without control over its own currency. The Irish Government have been making huge cuts in public services—cuts in wages, pensions and services—all of which were going through when we visited. Some of those might come about now, but seeing all that was helpful and constructive.

[Julian Smith]

The hon. Gentleman seems to be talking about the past. One conclusion of this report is that there is confidence in respect of financial services in Scotland, despite what happened. I believe that this debate and discussions on this topic should focus on how we can use the financial services sector, which has had huge success in Scotland, to create more jobs and private sector investment in this sector from overseas and from Scotland. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will come on to that later.

[Mr Davidson]

I am sure that I will. However, the debate is not about the future economic development of Scotland; it is about the Committee’s report, which we produced some time ago. My role as Chair is to discuss what we covered at that time and ensure that it is all seen in context.

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[Mr Davidson]

I have certainly had more people coming to my surgeries to talk about how they are being treated by the banks. I am also aware from money advice centres, Citizens Advice and other advice centres in my area that since the banking crisis the number of people complaining about how the banks have dealt with them has risen considerably. One is never entirely sure whether that is because the issues have been given more publicity—what we hear in our surgeries is not necessarily an objective assessment—but it is noticeable that the numbers have risen substantially, and I understand that that is a common experience.

[Julian Smith]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is worth making a distinction between the bash-a-banker rhetoric, which probably many of us hear in relation to the problems that our constituents are having, and the success that Scotland has had in attracting back-office roles? Those roles have nothing to do with investment banking or lending, but are based on traditional Scottish accounting talents. Thousands of jobs have been attracted from a wide range of international companies to Scotland—to Edinburgh, Dundee and Stirling—and we must pay tribute for that. We must continue to try to attract such jobs to ensure that financial services play a role in making the private sector stronger in Scotland and lessening public sector predominance.

[Mr Davidson]

I am sure that those points have been noted by all concerned, including the Minister and the relevant Whip. I want to deal with the report, however, and while such matters are fascinating, the report does not deal with them. I look forward to hearing the hon. Gentleman’s contribution to the debate, which will no doubt cover anything that anyone misses out.

Let me make it clear that the Committee believes that it is of key importance to continue the supervision of banks in Scotland, because the banks’ behaviour and their success will be essential to the growth and development of the Scottish economy. We cannot build up a small or large business sector without having banks in Scotland that are able and willing to lend, understand their markets, and behave constructively and positively. I hope that that covers the point that the hon. Gentleman was making.

We wanted to identify the extent to which lending in Scotland had declined during the economic crisis. Our report contains a series of figures and statements indicating that there was a period when lending was far too loose—the banks had been intent on shovelling money out of the door, almost irrespective of whether the business propositions were viable. We were critical of the way in which bankers often seemed to be incentivised to make loans without due regard to their viability, whether they were for property or to businesses or individuals. The report states that the pendulum then swung too far in the other direction. For a period, banks were unduly restrictive. They were prepared to lend on almost nothing and found excuses to raise charges and interest rates to make it as difficult as possible for money to go out. We have now seen a swing back and there is a degree of equilibrium, but subsequent discussions that the Committee has had have not convinced me that the banks have got it right yet.

Recently, the Committee met representatives from the computer gaming industry in Dundee, the construction and road haulage industries in Edinburgh, and the local chamber of commerce in Dundee. In every case, the story we heard was the same—the banks do not understand us. No one in the construction, road haulage or computer games industries spoke up for the banks collectively. That was interesting, and not a little worrying. Everyone who expressed a view on such matters said that they did not believe that the banks had taken adequate account of the prevailing situation, and did not have a feel for their industry at the moment. They needed loans, floating capital and so on, but the banks were not willing to play along, except at exorbitant rates.

The banks have said that they are making more money available and that part of the difficulty is that lending is going down because companies are choosing to repay debt instead of taking out new debt; but it seems to me that, to some extent, the rates that the banks charge and the conditions that they seek to apply are still inhibiting meaningful lending. The Government and the Committee should give ongoing consideration to that. We have had some responses and updates from the banks involved that seem to paint a picture that is rosier than recently, but we are still receiving feedback from those who want to borrow that the banks are not being as helpful and constructive as they might be. I hope that the Minister and the Committee will be able to work together with the Scottish Parliament to ensure that we develop a mutually advantageous liaison and relationship.

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[Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)]

I am delighted to make a brief contribution to the debate. Although I represent a constituency south of the border, I retain a great affection for, and interest in, the Scottish banking system. I should declare that I retain my very first current account, which is with the Royal Bank of Scotland, and which I took out when I was in my first job. I hope that that shows that I have some interest in the debate and that what I have to say has some relevance.

The banking sector in Scotland has been a significant player in the Scottish economy for many years, and I hope that it will be for many years to come. I am relieved that, for all the problems that Scottish banks have gone through, they have avoided some of the major catastrophes that have befallen banks in Ireland and Iceland—I mention that with some trepidation because I do not want to reignite the arc of prosperity debate between the hon. Members for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) and, if I can get the pronunciation right, for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil)—that was not bad. I welcome the Committee’s finding that despite all the problems, Scottish banks’ reputation for excellence has not been permanently damaged. I am heartened that the Committee found that there are some signs of an upturn in the Scottish banking sector, with new investment taking place.

I want to make a specific point about the responsibility of Scottish banks, and indeed all banks, to promote good financial education among their existing customers and the population at large. I have fond memories of the time when the Royal Bank of Scotland came to my primary school in Hamilton to give us some basic lessons about how banks worked. It set up a small savings account, into which we were encouraged to deposit a small proportion of our pocket money. At a young age, that instilled in me some very basic and good lessons in sound finance. My friends might uncharitably say that I have kept those lessons with me and talk about my hesitation to contribute towards buying rounds and the like, but the lessons that I learned then were valuable.

Over the years, we have lost sight of such things. The events of the past couple of years have shown that all of us, including the Government, individuals, some businesses and the banks themselves, have lost sight of basic prudence—I seem to remember someone else using that word once in a while—which encouraged people to borrow only when it was sensible to do so and only for investment in genuine products, rather than just to fund current consumption. I want to use this opportunity to call on the banks to remember their responsibility. I am sure that they all have specific schemes in place and that they will say that they educate their customers and others in society, but I want to emphasise how important it is that they do that, that they do not lose sight of such things and that they do all they can to boost them.

I was concerned to read in the Committee’s report—the hon. Member for Glasgow South West expanded on this—of evidence that the banks are placing undue pressure on customers to take out products that might not be in their best interests and to take on more debt than is sensible. It causes me some concern that the lessons of the past few years have not been learned. I welcome the Government’s initiative to establish the consumer protection and markets authority. When the legislation to introduce the authority is introduced, a central part of its remit will be to remind the banks that they have an obligation to promote good financial education and sound financial advice so that we do not get back into a position where everyone—everyone probably is guilty of this in some respect—takes out too much debt, funding their lifestyle rather than sensible investments.

[Julian Smith]

Does my hon. Friend agree that we must also have transparency about deposit rates and good depositor information? I and other colleagues have constituents who are completely flummoxed by the way in which deposit systems work in banks, and a great deal more morality and transparency in that area would not go amiss.

[Iain Stewart]

My hon. Friend makes an important point, and I would extend it even further: any banking product should be utterly transparent so that people know what return they will get or what interest rate they will have to pay in the long term. People often get an attractive headline rate of interest for the first year or two, but then find themselves locked into a more punitive rate. As my hon. Friend says, better transparency across the board is vital, and I hope that that, too, will be a central theme of the new authority.

It has always been a central belief of mine that we have sound finance in this country, but we have lost sight of it, and I hope that the lessons have been learned by the banks and everyone else.

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[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

I declare an interest as a trustee of the Consumer Credit Counselling Service in Scotland. I act in a voluntary capacity, with no remuneration. The CCCS is a debt advice charity, which has been greatly active on many of the matters raised by my hon. Friends and others during this welcome debate.

The debate is about a most welcome report. As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) said, the report, which was thorough and worth while, was published at the end of the previous Parliament. It was incredibly important, given the estimated one in 10 jobs in Scotland that are linked to the long-standing financial services industry. Jobs, of course, have subsequently been lost in Scotland, as they have elsewhere, bank branches have closed, and the whole economy has been affected by the credit crunch.

On this, my fourth day in my new role as shadow Financial Secretary, I anticipate having many debates on financial services and their impact on consumers in all corners of the country. Although I spoke far too much and at great length in my previous guise as a Back Bencher, I will take this opportunity to reiterate my default position on many of these matters and, in particular, on the three clear questions that I believe are fundamental to my new portfolio.

First, what reforms are necessary to minimise the systemic risk to a well functioning economy and society following the experience of the credit crunch? Secondly, how can we create a thriving and healthy financial services industry in the United Kingdom, including in Scotland, rebuilding it with a reputation for sustainability, solidity and trust? Thirdly, how can we ensure greater fairness for the consumers of financial services products, so that the industry operates on the basis of common sense and fair play?

It is heartening that many of the contributors to this debate not only focused on what might sometimes seem to be ethereal issues between the players in the industry, but considered matters very much from the consumer perspective, speaking of people’s encounters with issues that are central to their lives.

The report contains an excellent collection of evidence, taken over a long period, going back to November and December 2009. I am glad that my hon. Friend referred to the visits to Ireland and to evidence heard elsewhere, successfully bringing in the arc of prosperity and making important points on the changing circumstances and the erroneous arguments made by members of the Scottish National party.

Many interesting lessons on the housing market, on public sector deficit reduction and its impact on growth, on the regulation of credit rating agencies and so forth, are all brought out in the report. Perhaps most notable is the impact of the credit crunch on Scotland in respect of changes to the Royal Bank of Scotland and Halifax Bank of Scotland—HBOS—and we should not forget the difficulties that affected Dunfermline building society. The report is an eloquent exposition or post-mortem of the lessons that need to be learned from that period, and it is worth reiterating them.

[Julian Smith]

The report was eloquent. Did it make the hon. Gentleman reflect on the Labour Government’s role in what went wrong, and the lax regulatory regime that had been allowed to develop, which was the source of many of the problems for the financial services industry in Scotland?

[Chris Leslie]

Certainly we all have lessons to learn from the credit crunch. Countries across the world, including the UK, did not frame correctly the regulatory environment in which financial services operated. That is absolutely clear. However, it reminds me that we do not state often enough that it was the previous Labour Administration who saved our economy from falling over the cliff edge and into the abyss. Although the current Administration sometimes give the impression that they would not have committed the resources necessary to achieve that, I believe that any Administration of any colour would have had to take those steps. I am proud that my party did so, even though that may be the root cause of some of the deficit questions that have subsequently arisen.

Key lessons need to be learned. Too few people had proper cognisance of the true liabilities on the books of our major banks, either because of the complexity of the various products involved or because of the poor risk assessment of those financial instruments. Banks were over-reliant on the wholesale capital markets to finance their investments and lending, which created excessively leveraged positions and left the banks incapable of coping with the freezing up of the wholesale markets. In addition, the underlying market sentiment, which, like the banking practices, had existed for a long time, implied an assumption of continuous expansion, creating expectations of never-ending profitability with high-scale rewards and bonuses, which clouded the judgment of too many practitioners in the sector.

[Julian Smith]

Would the shadow Minister say that the banks were merely reflecting the zeitgeist and the leadership of the Government of the time by over-extending themselves, living beyond their means and paying far too much for their work force?

[Chris Leslie]

Much as we in politics might like to think that everything done in the political game shapes society at large, my view is that the economy and society around us—not only in this country but in the world at large—suffered from too much exuberance when it came to the allure and attraction of profitability in that sector. We should have taken a far more hard-headed approach all round. Much as I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on trying to make a party political point about the root cause of the global credit crunch, it would not be fair to pin it on one or two politicians in one or two countries. The problem was systemic and we must all learn the lessons from it; otherwise it will be repeated—and that will affect Scotland as well as the rest of the world.

HBOS was merged with Lloyds TSB to form Lloyds Banking Group, and subsequently took advantage of Government capitalisation, which led to 43% public ownership. RBS received public funds resulting in 63% public ownership, rising to about 84% with subsequent injections of new capital. Special liquidity support and a number of other instruments created circumstances where the Government were very much foisted into the driving seat of our financial services industry.

The Government set a number of conditions, and I am glad that the present Administration have maintained a number of them. They include urging the banks to maintain competitive lending to retail and business customers at 2007 levels and encouraging the banks to deal with several of the failings that they experienced, including issues of remuneration, restricting dividend payments, helping people struggling with mortgage payments and so on. Of course, experience tells us that we still need to hold the feet of the banks to the commitments drawn out of them in exchange for the resources that were given to save their very existence. We should certainly ask the Government and the Minister to what extent they are succeeding.