Live Debate: Commons Chamber

Q3. What steps she is taking with Cabinet colleagues to promote equality as part of the Government mission entitled Break Down Barriers to Opportunity. (908215)

Question number three, Mr. Speaker.

11:39

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Mr. speaker, our recent Every Child Achieving and Thriving White Paper sets out our ambition to raise standards for all children and to halve the disadvantaged gap between poorer children and and their peers at the end of their secondary school career. To make sure that where you're from does not determine where you end up. We are expanding free school meals and scrapping the two child limit to lift half a million children out of poverty. That is a difference a Labour government makes.

11:39

Mr Connor Rand MP (Altrincham and Sale West, Labour)

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Poverty and economic inequality scar the education and life chances of children. Isn't it right that by lifting the two child limit, delivering 30 hours of free childcare, rolling out free breakfast clubs and family hubs and opening new school based nurseries including at Altrincham C of E Primary School in my constituency. This government is investing in equality for children and this is an investment that will be repaid many times over, when every child has the support they need to reach their full potential.

11:40

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Yes, Mr. Speaker, tackling child poverty is not just a moral poverty is not just a moral imperative. It is an investment in our country's future and in our own economic security as well. That is why we are determined to give every child the best start in life. The party opposite might not like it. That's because on their watch, record numbers of children were pushed into poverty. This Labour government will lift half a million children out of poverty.

11:40

Dame Caroline Dinenage MP (Gosport, Conservative)

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Caroline Dinenage Mr. speaker, but on her watch and the number of young people not in education, employment or training in Gosport has now reached around 5%. That's the highest figure in 15 years. Is it any wonder when so many of the job opportunities that used to be there for our young people like retail, hospitality and hair and beauty are being battered by this government? Surely one of the best ways to tackle inequality and poverty is to give people the right education and the right job opportunities.

What her government and her department are going to do.

11:41

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Mr. speaker, we do face a really serious challenge about the big numbers of young people who are not in education, employment or training, and that is something we are committed to tackling. It's why Alan Milburn is leading a review for this government as to what more we can do to support young people. It's why we've launched our schools white paper, why we're investing in further education, why we're expanding new routes into apprenticeships. But I would just say this didn't happen overnight. This is a problem that has developed over many, many years.

And the party opposite would do well to reflect on the contribution they made to the shocking numbers of young people we see that are Neet. Andrew Cooper number.

11:41

Q4. What steps she is taking with Cabinet colleagues to mark International Women’s Day. (908216)

Four.

11:42

Seema Malhotra MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Education) (Equalities) (Feltham and Heston, Labour )

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Mr Speaker Minister. have marked International Women's Day by highlighting what we're doing to support working women, halve violence against women and girls, and build a better future for every woman and girl. Last week, I was proud to formally launch Employer Action Plans alongside the Secretary of State, the Minister for Women and Equalities, our ministerial colleague, the Right Honourable Baroness Smith, is currently attending the Commission on the Status of Women. We are putting women at the heart of our missions in government and our foreign policy because we recognise that progress on gender equality must know no borders.

11:42

Andrew Cooper MP (Mid Cheshire, Labour)

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Andrew Cooper. >> Andrew Cooper. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This International Women's Day, I commend the work of her Place Charitable Trust in my constituency, Charitable Trust in my constituency, which supports women's well-being and creates spaces to facilitate conversations about health and other challenges. Her place, say many women, especially in deprived areas, visit their GP with poor mental health but are given medication without any meaningful discussion about what's happening in their lives. With Healthwatch England reporting that many women feel unheard and those in deprived areas facing 20 fewer healthy years.

How will the government back community based wraparound services to close those gaps?

11:43

Seema Malhotra MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Education) (Equalities) (Feltham and Heston, Labour )

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Minister. >> Minister. >> May I thank my hon. Friend for his question. I join him in his question. I join him in commending the work of her place and all community based support. We are rolling out neighbourhood health centres across the country, prioritising areas with the greatest need, and local authorities and integrated care boards will work together to design these services to reflect the needs of local women. Mental health funding has increased by 688 million this year and and is backed by almost 8000 extra staff, new mental health centres and talking therapies which will ensure that women receive the personalised support that they need.

11:43

Alison Griffiths MP (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton, Conservative)

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Alison Griffiths. >> Alison Griffiths. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Following International Women's Day and with English Tourism Week and with English Tourism Week approaching, I've been meeting female entrepreneurs across Bognor Regis and Littlehampton, including Kathleen the Navigator Hotel, who featured on the The Hotel Inspector only last week, and many others through my business club. These businesses are vital to coastal economies, but many women say it remains difficult to scale and grow. So what assessment has she made of the barriers facing women entrepreneurs in sectors like tourism and hospitality?

11:44

Seema Malhotra MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Education) (Equalities) (Feltham and Heston, Labour )

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Minister I thank the hon. Member for that brilliant question, because we have to do everything we can to be supporting women entrepreneurs, and it is vital that we look at the challenges that we see women facing in a range of sectors, which is why we have that work continuing through the Women's Business Council. It's also why we have the Investing in Women code that's been backed by our first female Chancellor, and it is why we want to see the progress of women, both in entrepreneurship and in the workplace, a priority, and why? I was also proud to attend the 30% Clubs International Women's Day breakfast this morning in the House.

11:45

Sarah Owen MP (Luton North, Labour)

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Select Committee, sir. Owen.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's sad, but it's true that. International Women's. Day rings hollow for far too

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Day rings hollow for far too many women, but particularly the three brave women that I have just three brave women that I have just met. They are survivors of Epstein. For them, important days like that For them, important days like that come and go. But what is the Minister doing to ensure that we don't just mark important days for don't just mark important days for women and girls, but give them the protection and justice they deserve and to hold perpetrators like Andrew Mountbatten to account, not just for reports of sharing state secrets, but also for trafficking and sexual abuse of women and girls.

11:45

Seema Malhotra MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Education) (Equalities) (Feltham and Heston, Labour )

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Minister. absolutely right that now the focus must absolutely be about the victims of these appalling crimes and putting in place support for women and girls who have faced horrendous violence. Multiple police forces are now assessing allegations arising from the Epstein files, and the National Police Chiefs Council has established a national coordination group, and has now appointed a senior investigator to support forces in reviewing the extensive material and progressing the resulting investigations. The senior investigator will work with the UK forces, the National Crime Agency, VAWG specialists and the Crown Prosecution Service and the US authorities to ensure a approach.

11:46

Rt Hon Claire Coutinho MP (East Surrey, Conservative)

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Claire Coutinho Shadow Secretary of State. >> It's been almost a year since the Supreme Court ruling, and I the Supreme Court ruling, and I come here time after time to ask what progress is being made. I was going to ask today if the government could confirm that every government department is fully compliant with the ruling, but honestly, there's almost no point because we know the answer is no. So on this International Women's Day isn't the truth that the former chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission had a point when she said that the Labour Party seems to have completely abandoned women's rights?

11:47

Seema Malhotra MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Education) (Equalities) (Feltham and Heston, Labour )

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Yeah. surprise the shadow Minister that I disagree with her on this. And I an important to say that we have been clear that all service providers must follow the law, as clarified by the For Women Scotland ruling. It is also the case that the as she knows, the EHRC has given the government the code of practice which we are working through, and it is important to also say that any suggestions of delay that come are completely wrong.

She knows it was a lengthy document covering all the protected characteristics. If we take this seriously and we are working to get it right Alex Easton.

11:48

Alex Easton MP (North Down, Independent)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On International Women's Day this year, many of us reflected on the scandal of group based sexual exploitation of group based sexual exploitation of young women and girls in Britain. Will the Minister commit that by International Women's Day 2027, the government will have implemented the key interim lessons from the independent inquiry into grooming gangs and from other reports commissioned in this matter by members of this House.

11:48

Seema Malhotra MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Education) (Equalities) (Feltham and Heston, Labour )

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Minister. >> Minister. >> Mr. speaker, I thank the hon. Gentleman. This is an incredibly important topic, and he will know that we have always been clear that our paramount objective is to root out the horrific crimes of grooming gangs and to punish perpetrators, and to protect children from harm. It is also important to note how the Home Secretary has made she know. He knows we have made a statement accepting the recommendations of Baroness Casey's audit into group based child sexual exploitation, which included a national inquiry into into grooming.

We are also committing to committed to changing the criminal law for adults penetrating children under 16. We are absolutely committed to making sure that we root out this evil crime, these evil crimes, and continue to make sure that we do that with our work across government.

11:49

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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Question number five, please, Mr. Speaker. Mr. delivering commitments set out in the cross-Government freedom from Violence and Abuse Strategy, published in December 2025, which sets out actions to prevent violence, pursue perpetrators and support victims. A ministerial group bringing together 14 departments provide strategic oversight to delivery, driving progress, addressing risk and ensuring collective ownership of our commitments to halve VAWG within a decade.

11:49

Warinder Juss (Wolverhampton West, Labour)

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Mr. speaker, I recently visited Wolverhampton Girls High School in my constituency of Wolverhampton West and was pleased to see posters promoting the Orange Wolverhampton campaign, working with community partners in the fight against gender based violence and abuse. Whilst the criminal justice system, of course, has a part to play in tackling violence against women and girls, does the Minister agree that we need to do more to achieve community based early intervention and prevention, and that educating and raising awareness in our young people, especially our young boys, about VAWG can benefit not only the victims, but the perpetrators and our justice system as well.

Sir.

11:50

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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I thank the hon. Gentleman I was >> I thank the hon. Gentleman I was this weekend with Black Country Women's Aid celebrating their 40th anniversary, and they mentioned how anniversary, and they mentioned how the hon. Gentleman had been incredibly supportive of them. The first three aims of our strategy is stopping violence before it starts focusing on the prevention he talks about, we will focus on young people supporting parents and working with schools to challenge misogyny and promote healthy relationships.

We will also engage with industry and take decisive action to safeguard young people, by making the UK one of the hardest places for children to access harmful content and misogynistic influence.

11:51

Mr Gregory Campbell MP (East Londonderry, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Gregory Campbell.

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undertake to consult with. The Northern Ireland Justice Minister because violence against Minister because violence against women and girls continues to increase? Another woman killed in the past few days in Northern Ireland, and we need to take positive action to stem this misogynistic abuse of both women

11:51

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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and girls. >> Minister. >> I thank the hon. Gentleman and

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I thank the hon. Gentleman and he highlights another incredibly sad case. Of course, I work with the Justice Minister in Northern Ireland. As with all the devolved administrations, we work very, very closely to make sure that we are working together to to deal with this problem collectively.

11:51

Mims Davies MP (East Grinstead and Uckfield, Conservative)

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Chorley Secretary. State Minister.

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From police forces. Nothing from Police Scotland Healthcare today Police Scotland Healthcare today reported back in 2025 that Women's Rights Network, via FOI, found 1 in Rights Network, via FOI, found 1 in 7 sexual crimes, 266 Mr Speaker 7 sexual crimes, 266 Mr Speaker were on hospital wards, 2 in 5 female medical students reported sexual harassment or assault in university, with just 4% charged for these offences. Perpetrators are getting away with it, surely committing more attacks. So with the backdrop of Labour's shameful choices on jury trials yesterday, all appalling.

When will the Minister and this government act to protect women on wards?

11:52

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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Minister. >> Minister. >> What I would like to say to the hon. Lady that if she were to read the Violence Against Women and Girls strategy, there is a specific Girls strategy, there is a specific sections around healthcare workers and workers across the community specifically targeting the issue of sexual harassment within the NHS. But what I would also point out to her that the charging rate fell in sexual crimes, fell to a historic low under her government, and I am very pleased to tell the House that it is now increasing.

spokesperson.

11:53

Marie Goldman MP (Chelmsford, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. speaker, last month The Guardian revealed that suicides following domestic abuse may be vastly underreported, with research in Kent suggesting it could be 15 times more prevalent. There has been just one manslaughter conviction from such a death in the whole of UK legal history. Liberal Democrats, in the other place, recently tabled an amendment to the Crime and Policing Bill, supported by Women's Aid and Advocacy after fatal domestic abuse, requiring police to investigate suicides as potential homicides where there is a reasonable suspicion of a history of domestic abuse.

Given the government's reluctance to support that measure, will the Minister commit to making the College of Policing published guidance on this matter statutory? So these cases are properly investigated across all forces?

11:54

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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I thank the hon. Lady and once again point to this exact issue, which is covered in the violence against women and girls strategy with the need to improve police responses. That is why the government has invested £13.1 million into policing centre that focuses specifically on VAWG who have undertaken on this specific issue of suicide in domestic abuse. Some absolutely groundbreaking work that will lead. I very much hope to change and further conviction, which we would all want to see.

11:54

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Come to Topicals Mohammad Yasin. >> Mr. speaker, following International Women's Day, this government is taking another step towards a fairer Britain. We have towards a fairer Britain. We have published guidance for business to encourage them not just to report their gender pay gap, but to set out plans to tackle it, because reducing the gender pay gap is good for women and it is good for growth too. We're expanding childcare, introducing new workplace protections and implementing a landmark strategy to tackle violence against women and girls.

11:55

Mohammad Yasin MP (Bedford, Labour)

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Mohammad Yasin Mr. time in the UK has risen to eight years and ten months. Constituents in Bedford and Kempston, including a staff member with a rare form, still face long delays for treatment. So will the Secretary of State set improved targets and mandate GP training on recognising endometriosis in the Women's Health Strategy to speed up diagnosis.

11:55

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Firstly. women often spend years being dismissed, misdiagnosed or just not being listened to. This is completely unacceptable and we are determined to tackle it. To improve early diagnosis of the condition, we continue to roll out community diagnostic centres and through our renewed women's Health strategy, which we will publish soon, will be focussed on speeding up diagnosis and treatment of mental health and gynaecological conditions, including endometriosis.

11:55

Rt Hon Claire Coutinho MP (East Surrey, Conservative)

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Sir Secretary of State Claire Coutinho. publishing their Islamophobia definition this week, there were calls from within the Labour Party for it to be weaponised, to stifle free speech. And yet we know there have been multiple cases of our public services being too scared of being called Islamophobic to speak freely to save women and girls from serious harm. So can the Secretary of State explain why the Labour Party thought it was worth trading the safety of women and girls for their own narrow political interests?

11:56

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Mr. speaker, what absolute >> Mr. speaker, what absolute rubbish. This is a serious issue. We know that there are people who want to pull our country apart, but want to pull our country apart, but I am proud that we live in a multi-ethnic, diverse and tolerant nation where we celebrate our shared values. It is right that we take action against anti-Muslim hatred in our country as we take action on anti-Semitism, too, and we've set out further steps in that area. But it is completely unacceptable that anyone would face intimidation or harassment on the basis of their faith.

But that is not in conflict with our fundamental belief in the right to freedom of speech. Catherine Fookes freedom of speech. Catherine Fookes and the economic abuse victim loses.

11:57

Catherine Fookes MP (Monmouthshire, Labour)

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Her life.

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According to surviving economic abuse, with over half of domestic homicide reviews involving this homicide reviews involving this form of abuse by their partner. What steps is the Secretary of State taking with Cabinet colleagues to tackle it, both through the violence against women strategy of the government and

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strategy of the government and through improving understanding within relevant agencies? Minister.

11:57

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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>> Minister. >> I thank the hon. Lady. The cross-government VAWG strategy that she. She speaks of sets out an ambitious package of measures to prevent and tackle economic abuse and support victims. This includes exploring how to prevent joint mortgages being used as a tool of abuse, ensuring co.s debt is accurately reflected, and addresses the very severe problem of victims credit files, and piloting the use of economic abuse evidence form within the government to improve abuse.

11:58

Kirsty Blackman MP (Aberdeen North, Scottish National Party)

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Blackburn months ago. In the King's Speech, the government announced that it would bring forward the draft, Race and Disability Equality Bill. We have not seen this draft yet. Next week will be a year since the consultation was launched. When will we see the draft bill and what will the process of scrutiny be for that bill? Good question.

11:58

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Mr. speaker, I. in this area. Good progress has been made in developing the policy. We will publish the government's response as soon as we can, as well as setting out next steps in terms of legislation we'll bring forward. This was a key manifesto commitment and we will deliver it.

11:58

Richard Quigley MP (Isle of Wight West, Labour)

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Richard Quigley. Wight and the rest of UK. Please, please. I know you love the Isle of Wight. You just did nothing about it in power. The wage gap between between the Isle of Wight and the rest of the UK leaves full time island employees around 5500 pounds worse off, compared to the national average. For female islanders, it's around £8,000 a year worse off. Will the Secretary of State work urgently with Cabinet colleagues to address the island wage gap, particularly for women? Does she agree that closing that gap is good for women, good for communities and good for growth?

11:59

Seema Malhotra MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Education) (Equalities) (Feltham and Heston, Labour )

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Minister.

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I firmly agree that women's equality and economic growth go hand in hand. That is why I was hand in hand. That is why I was pleased to join the Secretary of State in formally launching action plans last week, so that large employers will be encouraged to set employers will be encouraged to set out the steps they are taking to narrow their gender pay gap. This will ensure that women are able to thrive in the workplace across the country, including in the Isle of

11:59

Prime Minister's Question Time

Wight. >> Right. We now come to Prime Minister's Questions. We start with Sureena Brackenridge.

11:59

Sureena Brackenridge MP (Wolverhampton North East, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Question one.

11:59

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Prime Minister. night to protect British lives and British interests in the Middle East. The RAF have flown over 230 hours of defensive operations over multiple countries, shooting down multiple drones, protecting British lives and our allies. We thank them for their courage and for their professionalism. Mr. speaker, this morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House. I shall have further such meetings later today.

12:00

Sureena Brackenridge MP (Wolverhampton North East, Labour)

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Prime Minister strengthening Britain's defence capability and rebuilding our industrial base has never been more important. Can the government's billion pound helicopter investment with Leonardo UK support skilled jobs across the UK, including Tata Steel in Wentzville and my supply chains in Wolverhampton North East, where we are immensely proud of our Black Country steel and manufacturing heritage. And will the Prime Minister ask relevant Ministers to meet me to discuss securing more of those good jobs in Wolverhampton and Willenhall?

12:01

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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I thank my hon. Friend. I'm very happy to arrange the meeting that she is asking for. Our £1 billion investment in new helicopters is good news for steel makers in her constituency, and secures thousands of jobs across the United Kingdom. Mr. speaker, we are making defence an engine for growth, jobs, building helicopters, new Typhoons in the north west, new frigates creating a decade of shipbuilding on the Clyde. A Labour government investing in our armed forces. investing in our armed forces.

12:01

Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)

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Leader of the Opposition. Kemi Badenoch.

12:01

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Why does the Prime. time to increase the cost of petrol? >> Prime Minister? >> Mr. speaker, we are not

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Mr. speaker, we are not increasing the cost of petrol. We are absolutely clear in taking the measures that are necessary to deal measures that are necessary to deal with the impact of the conflict in Iran. We are dealing with that with other allies. We are taking the necessary action. But the best thing that we can do, Mr. Speaker, is to work with others to de-escalate the situation. Mr. speaker, as I said to the House last week, I took the decision that we should not join the initial Us-israeli offensive against Iran.

The Leader of the Opposition attacked me for that decision relentlessly. She said that the UK joined the US and Israel in the initial offensive strikes. Mr. speaker, then yesterday, in the wake of the economic consequences, the Leader of the Opposition totally abandoned her position. She told the BBC I never said we should told the BBC I never said we should join. She should, she told the BBC. I haven't said we should have gone in with the United States.

That is the mother of all U-turns on the single most important decision of Prime Minister ever has to take, whether to commit the United Kingdom to war or not.

12:03

Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)

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Mr. speaker, I think the mother of all U-turns is him saying that they're not increasing fuel duty. That is news to us, because last week the Chancellor, the Chancellor, stood up and said the fuel duty was going to increase in September. The Prime Minister told us at the start of the year that the cost of living was his number one priority. So can he explain how a rise in fuel duty helps with the cost of living?

12:03

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Mr Speaker fuel duty is frozen. It's going to remain frozen until September, and we will keep the situation under review. In light of what's happening in Iran. But Mr. Speaker, the most, the most. Mr. speaker, the most important issue is de-escalating the situation. And I come back to the leader of the opposition's position because this is one of the most important positions decisions a Prime Minister or Leader of the Opposition ever has to take, whether to commit your country to war the day after the initial US Israeli strike started, has shadow Foreign Secretary said that the Us-israeli initial attacks were absolutely right? And it is a position my party supports.

She said why has the Prime Minister not actually worked with America to be much more proactive? Last Wednesday, Leader of the Opposition. We are in this war, whether we like it or not. What is the Prime Minister waiting for? Then? Yesterday, yesterday, yesterday she says, I never said I know they don't want to hear it. I know they don't. I wouldn't want to hear it if I were them. After all

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that, she says order, order. Enough is enough. I can't hear

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Enough is enough. I can't hear it. Who wants to lead the first

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it. Who wants to lead the first ones out? Right. We'll have a little bit more silence, Prime Minister. So after nine days of saying.

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So after nine days of saying. Join the war, join the war, join the war yesterday she says, I never said we should join. I haven't said said we should join. I haven't said we should go in with the US. I'll tell you what's happened, Mr. Speaker. She and the reform leader have been spooked because they realise they've jumped into supporting a war without thinking through the consequences. And now she's furiously trying to back-pedal.

12:06

Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)

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Kemi Badenoch. asking last week's questions. This week I'm asking about fuel duty. He has said that he wants to help. Mr. Mr Speaker. He has said that he wants to help with the cost of living. My constituents live in a rural area. They rely on their cars to get to the shops, take their kids to school, see their elderly parents and they tell me the rising cost of petrol is the single biggest cost affecting family finances.

So does the Prime Minister not understand how important cars are to people in rural areas, or does he just not care?

12:06

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Prime Minister. >> Prime Minister. >> Mr. Speaker, we're working across all departments and with allies to deal with the impact of allies to deal with the impact of the conflict in Iran, as the House would expect. But she says about if I'd asked her last week, her position would have been, we support the initial strikes and we want to join the war this week. This week, she says, we don't want to join the war. I'm sorry. That is a screeching U-turn.

And, Mr. Speaker, this is in this in this job, you don't you don't get a second shot at making the right call on taking your country to war. If she were Prime Minister, Mr. Speaker, we would be in the war, and she would be coming back to Parliament a week later to say, oh, sorry, I got that one wrong.

12:07

Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)

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Order, order order, order! I'm sorry I'm interrupting you, but unfortunately, we've got to stick to Prime Minister's questions, not

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opposition. Kemi Badenoch. Mr. speaker, he said if I were Prime Minister, if I were Prime Minister, HMS Dragon would have Minister, HMS Dragon would have left a week ago. The only time. The left a week ago. The only time. The only time. Mr. speaker, the only time he's taken decisive action was stopping Andy Burnham from standing in the byelection. But let's talk about what the people out there are worried about. I heard from a builder, Mr.

Speaker, who has 115 employees using 75 vans with the jobs tax, sky high energy bills and now a hike in petrol prices. That builder is having sleepless nights. How does the Prime Minister justify a rise in fuel duty to that small business owner, and millions more like him, up and down the country?

12:08

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Prime Minister. >> Prime Minister. >> There hasn't been a rise. It is frozen. There isn't. It is frozen until September. And she. Mr. speaker, she mentions the HMS Dragon. Can I first start by thanking the Royal Navy who are serving on ships coming? Can I second say that what's been happening is it's been carefully being loaded with the anti strike ammunition and capability that it needs, and the Navy and civilians have been working 22 hour shifts in relationship.

But in relation to those that are taking the action to defend us, what does she say? Just just hanging about. Just hanging about. That's how she described our pilots in the region. Let me tell you what they've been doing flying sorties in seven of the ten countries in the region. Day and night, taking out incoming strikes, protecting the lives of others whilst risking their own. If she had any decency, she'd get up and she would apologise. she would apologise.

12:09

Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)

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Mr. speaker. Oh hang on. I think they should wait for it. Mr. speaker, I have never criticised our armed forces. I have criticised I have criticised him.

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Mr. swallow, you're going out. I've had enough. Week in, week out,

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I believe. No real navy. Mr. speaker, I have never

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Mr. speaker, I have never criticised our armed forces. I am criticising him and his decision. And let me remind the House, Mr. Speaker, about his record on the armed forces. This is the same man who worked with Phil Shiner, a who worked with Phil Shiner, a traitor to this country, who made up evidence to put our soldiers in prison for crimes they didn't commit. That is his record. So I wouldn't take any lectures from him. And by the way, military families are also worried.

The ones in this country about petrol prices. He's got nothing to say on that. And there's another group of people, Mr. Speaker, who have been hammered by this government. Farmers? I spent all last year telling the Prime Minister that his family farms tax was killing British farming. Now those farmers are being punished with higher fuel prices. Does the Prime Minister think that's fair? Yes, sir.

12:10

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Mr. speaker. No apology to our pilots who are risking their lives. And I'm not going to take lectures from. I'm not going to take lectures from someone who says we should join the war. And a week later says, can I change my mind? I got that wrong. It is deeply embarrassing. But she's not the only one. Mr. speaker, last week, she's not the only one. The leader of reform. We should be part of this with the and the Israelis. We have to get rid of the regime.

We should do all we can to support the operation. I make that perfectly, perfectly clear. He said until yesterday. Screeching U-turn. We shouldn't get ourselves involved in another foreign war. Two parties packed with failed Tories, led by leaders who are not fit to be Prime Minister.

12:11

Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)

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Mr. speaker, he doesn't want to talk about fuel duty because he has got absolutely no answers. The Conservatives are on the side of farmers. We are also on the side of drivers. We froze fuel duty every year from 2011, and in fact, we cut it in 2022 because we care about the cost of living. Labour think drivers are a cash cow. And now and now, Mr. Speaker, they think the drivers are a cash cow and now they're hiking fuel duty for the first time in 15 years.

Everyone in this house, everyone in this house knows the pattern. First, he'll march his backbenchers up the hill. Then they'll be forced to defend fuel duty rises in the local elections. Then there'll be another humiliating U-turn. So why doesn't the Prime Minister just stand up, admit he's got it wrong again, and scrap the fuel duty hike. Now!

12:12

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Mr. Speaker, in the last two weeks, I've made two of the most important decisions of Prime Minister can make. The first. The first is that we should not join the war in Iran. The second is we should protect British lives and the British national interest. The Leader of the Opposition decided that we should join the war against Iran. A week later that we should not join the war against Iran. And to insult our armed forces, she has utterly disqualified herself from ever becoming Prime Minister.

Thankfully, she never will.

12:13

David Williams MP (Stoke-on-Trent North, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> As the Prime Minister knows, my mom proudly worked in the potbanks of Burslem and Tunstall and is watching at home right now. Tomorrow is International Day of Ceramics and that matters deeply to Stoke on Trent, the historic heart of Britain's ceramic industry, with yes and Newcastle-under-Lyme. With energy prices rising again due to global instability, will the Prime Minister please tell my mum and our fellow Stokies what additional support the government will give energy intensive industries like ceramics? So the kilns of Stoke on Trent Fire for generations to come.

12:14

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Prime Minister. It is a really important issue and I know that not only his mum be watching but his constituents who he serves very, very well. Our supercharger will significantly reduce costs for thousands of major industries. Eligibility for the scheme is being reviewed this year. I can tell my hon. Friend, we're working with the ceramics industry on whether the scheme can be extended to more firms. Under the last government, industrial energy prices doubled and over 1000 jobs were lost in the sector.

We will not tolerate that.

12:14

Rt Hon Ed Davey MP (Kingston and Surbiton, Liberal Democrat)

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Said David, leader of the Liberal Democrats. pay tribute to the hon. Member for Warrington North for her powerful and courageous speech in the debate on jury trials yesterday. I really hope the Prime Minister was listening. Mr. speaker, 30 years ago this week, a man carried four handguns into Dunblane Primary School and murdered a teacher and 16 children. I was deeply moved by the BBC documentary about it last night, and the courage of the parents, who campaigned for a ban on handguns to keep other children safe, including Mick North, who lost his five year old daughter Sophie on that dark day.

He is rightly called on the hon. Member for Clacton to renounce his description of the handgun ban as, and I quote, ludicrous. Something the member still refuses to do. And Mr. North has also called for a review of firearms legislation to close any loopholes. Does the Prime Minister agree?

12:15

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Prime Minister? must never forget the horror of Dunblane. And never forget the young children and their teacher who did not come home from school. The campaign that families fought to make this country a safer place is a lasting legacy, and we should be enormously grateful for their courage.

12:16

Rt Hon Ed Davey MP (Kingston and Surbiton, Liberal Democrat)

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Sir Ed Davey. loopholes. Mr. speaker, this week families across the country have seen petrol prices rise at the pump. Mortgage rates go up and fixed energy deals get more expensive, all because of a war they did not start and do not support. The leader of the Conservatives has been competing with the hon. Member for Clacton to be Donald Trump's biggest cheerleader, and the Prime

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Minister was right to reject their costly warmongering. Yeah.

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Yeah. But last week I asked him to guarantee that energy bills won't guarantee that energy bills won't rise by hundreds of pounds in July. He didn't answer. So let me try He didn't answer. So let me try again. Will he give people that energy bill guarantee now?

12:17

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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energy bill guarantee now? >> Prime Minister. >> Can I thank him for raising this? Because people will be really worried about the impact on them. And just to reassure households that the the cap is in place until the end of June, until July, and therefore that deals with the situation for households. There we are working with the sector and with others, and with allies to do everything we can to make sure those energy bills don't rise and we're working round the clock on that.

The most important thing, the most effective thing we can do, is to work with our allies, to find a way to de-escalate the situation. He's right about the Leader of the Opposition, leader of reform. Last week they were urging to join. This is serious to join. If they had been leading the country, if they had been leading the country, we'd

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be in a war. And they've now come to Parliament to say. Oop, order, order, order! Prime

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Oop, order, order, order! Prime Minister, who said, lying again, I want that withdrawal is not want that withdrawal is not withdrawal and I want I'll deal with it. Thank you. I don't want any more of the frontbench. We take any more of the frontbench. We take it very seriously. And colleague, another member of light is not

12:18

Josh Dean MP (Hertford and Stortford, Labour)

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acceptable, Prime Minister. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And so that's our position. >> Josh Dean.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Too often I hear from families in Hertford and Stortford whose Hertford and Stortford whose children have been left out of education for months or even years because they can't get a school place that meets their needs within place that meets their needs within a reasonable distance. I'm campaigning for more investment in the bricks and mortar SEND provision that semi-rural provision that semi-rural communities like ours need so families can access support early and easily and their children can and easily and their children can thrive in education.

So will the Prime Minister back my campaign to expand SEND provision in Hertford and Stortford, and will he arrange a meeting with the relevant Minister so we can discuss it in more detail?

12:18

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Yeah, yeah. >> Prime Minister. >> Mr Speaker is right. Families are crying out for change and that's why it's really critical we get this right. Our reforms will get this right. Our reforms will fix the broken system where parents have to fight for support, replacing it with tailored support, personal to a child's need. Our best start family hub in every local authority with a dedicated Sen practitioner will help families with face to face support they need. My hon. Friend is a great advocate on this issue, and I'm happy to make sure he gets the meeting that he's asking for.

12:19

Rt Hon Stephen Flynn MP (Aberdeen South, Scottish National Party)

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Stephen Flynn Mr. speaker. >> Let's be clear Donald Trump's war in Iran is illegal, and the situation that has unfolded since situation that has unfolded since is verging on insane. Oil is falling from the skies, sewers are exploding. The IRGC is indiscriminately attacking civilians across the region, cargo ships, and potentially even mining the Strait of Hormuz. The economic consequences of which will be stark for the global economy. But for every single person living on these isles, too, and whether the Prime Minister accepts it or not, he did indeed take us into that war when he allowed the Americans to use UK bases.

Just last week. But I have a specific question. He will have seen the same footage I have of an American Tomahawk missile landing on a primary school, killing 110 children. Does he believe that to be a war crime?

12:20

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Yes. >> Mr. speaker, we are all concerned by that footage. But let me be absolutely clear with him. We me be absolutely clear with him. We have 300,000 UK nationals, including Scottish citizens, in the region. Air strikes, missiles and drones are being fired into the region, putting them at great danger. We are taking action to protect them. I am astonished that the SNP says don't take action to support Scottish citizens in the region. It's outrageous.

12:21

Peter Dowd MP (Bootle, Labour)

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Peter Dowd.

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highways. National highways. The government owned company has reneged on a promise to replace the demolished footbridge at Park Lane West in Netherton. It crossed one West in Netherton. It crossed one of the busiest roads and junctions on Merseyside, used by countless residents, particularly children residents, particularly children and parents going to and from infant and primary school. My infant and primary school. My constituents have requested that that bridge be replaced with no ifs or buts. Will the Prime Minister support my constituents very reasonable request to honour that promise made by National Highways?

12:21

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Can I thank him for campaigning for his constituency's residents, who are obviously concerned about this? As I understand it, National Highways has concluded the best option for all users, pedestrians and cyclists is a new crossing, but I thank him for raising the points and I'll be happy for Ministers to continue discussing him with him. The options Madam Chair.

12:22

Wendy Chamberlain MP (North East Fife, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This afternoon the Mandelson papers or the first tranche will be released, bringing into the light for the first time UK institutional knowledge of Jeffrey Epstein and those associated with him. Here in the UK. We have our own Epstein, Mohamed Fayed and the institutions that supported his crimes. As a co-chair of the APPG for the survivors of Al-Fayed and Harrods, along with the hon. Member for Lichfield, we welcome the actions of the Metropolitan Police in recent days, but we continue to call on them to describe those crimes as what they were trafficking.

Does the Prime Minister recognise that characterisation, and will he meet with the APPG and survivors to hear their asks.

12:22

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Prime Minister. discussed it with the hon. Member for Lichfield last night, particularly the approach of the APPG, and thank her for her important work on this issue. I'm very happy to meet the APPG and the victims. I think it's very important to do so. She'll know there's an ongoing police investigation, but that doesn't mean that we can't have the meeting and listen to those that need to be listened to.

12:23

Catherine Atkinson MP (Derby North, Labour)

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Catherine Atkinson.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Team Derby. Is our partnership, making sure that the billions of pounds in sure that the billions of pounds in investment that this Labour government is bringing into Derby benefits the people of Derby in benefits the people of Derby in three generation skills and good jobs. The government's record investment in Rolls-Royce investment in Rolls-Royce submarines means hundreds of new jobs and apprenticeships in Derby. So will the Prime Minister firmly reject the Green Party's defence policies, which would decimate jobs in Derby and leave the United Kingdom unprotected? Mr.

12:23

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Can I thank Derby as part of our industrial heritage and has a bright future? Initiatives, as she says, like Team Derby, are so important to strengthen key sectors like defence, creating jobs and growth. Our £9 billion deal with Rolls-Royce to boost our fleet of nuclear submarines is testament to that. Creating more than 1000 jobs and safeguarding 4000 more. Those that oppose all that must answer to the working people that they claim to represent.

12:24

Mr Gagan Mohindra MP (South West Hertfordshire, Conservative)

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Gagan Mohindra.

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Dahieh. Prime Minister will be happy that I'm not going to ask about fuel duty. Yeah. Businesses across South West Hertfordshire are telling me they're now reluctant to take on young workers due to this government's widening employer, National Insurance contributions and the crippling Employment Rights Bill. With almost a million young people now not in employment, education or training. How exactly

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education or training. How exactly does the Prime Minister plan to get Great Britain working again? Yeah.

12:24

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Mr. speaker, we're putting in place the Youth Guarantee, which helps young people into work. It is a serious issue. I would remind him that on their watch, 1 in 8 young people were neither in education, training or work.

12:25

Graham Stringer MP (Blackley and Middleton South, Labour)

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Stringer. >> Stringer. >> Mr. speaker, the National Audit Office report on Northern Office report on Northern Powerhouse Rail, which came out on Monday of this week, surprised none of us in its conclusions that lack of engagement by the Department of Transport with mayoral authorities, local authorities and other involved parties in the north of England was leading to poor programming and lack of investment in in the rail system in the north of England. We deserve in the north of England, a rail system for the 21st century, not the 19th century, which is what it is for investing in the rail system will enable growth in the north of England, which will benefit the whole of the country.

Will the Prime Minister take a personal interest in the slowness of investment in the rail system, so that we can have that growth?

12:26

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Prime Minister. >> Prime Minister. >> Thank you for raising this important point. The party opposite gave nothing but false promises for gave nothing but false promises for a decade. We will deliver the biggest transformation transport in the North for a generation, providing up to £45 billion of funding to deliver. We are taking forward all recommendations from the Now report that does not change the planning or the trajectory of the project.

12:26

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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Doctor Andrew Murrison yeah. overoptimistic Treasury assumptions on council tax base growth mean that eight fire stations and 96 retained firefighters across Wiltshire and Dorset face the axe. Would the Prime Minister please facilitate an urgent ministerial meeting for Wiltshire and Dorset MPs to discuss extending the precept flexibility permitted elsewhere, at no cost to the Treasury, to our fire and rescue service, so its fire stations and its dedicated fire fighters can continue to serve our community.

12:27

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Prime Minister, I. sure that the relevant meeting is set up so that the details can be explored.

12:27

Sonia Kumar MP (Dudley, Labour)

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Sonia Kumar. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> Russia's continued. >> Assault on Ukraine has devastated its healthcare system. Hospitals are under extreme pressure, and their critical shortage of specialist staff to treat the injured. That is why I, along with other British physiotherapists, travelled to Ukraine to train clinicians who are working under unimaginable pain. Will the Prime Minister join me in thanking Tanisha Sandhu, Daniel SIM K Jo Andrew George for the remarkable work? And will he commit to expanding UK Ukraine clinical training partnerships?

12:27

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Yes, I will and can I pay tribute to her and the rest of the delegation for their commendable work in Kyiv? We recently announced a new package of support for Ukraine enabling highly skilled British surgeons, nurses and physiotherapists to mentor Ukrainian clinicians treating complex battlefield injuries. Mr. speaker, on one of my recent trips to Kyiv, I went to one of the hospitals where they were treating the burns of those returning from the front line, and it was humbling to see the work that was being done.

And I was extremely proud to know that the UK was helping in treating those who had such awful burns.

12:28

Kirsty Blackman MP (Aberdeen North, Scottish National Party)

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Kirsty Blackman Westminster is tax on Scotland's energy is holding back investment and it's costing thousands of families their livelihoods. After months of refusing to do so, the Chancellor has finally now said she is committed to change. So will the Prime Minister confirm to the House today when the GPM will be introduced to provide certainty for jobs, certainty for investment and, security?

12:29

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Hear, hear. certainty for energy security, and oil and gas will be part of the mix for many years to come. I would remind her that 70,000 jobs were lost under the SNP and conservatives in the last decade. We want energy security. We see new nuclear as part of that energy security and what the SNP do, they block it.

12:29

Dame Siobhain McDonagh MP (Mitcham and Morden, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Silently >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Silently and in semi secrecy. London and the South East of England are experiencing the largest mass eviction by a private landlord in decades. Criterion capital have issued at least 130 no fault evictions across their portfolio, including in Britannia Point, in Colliers Wood in my constituency. Those affected have done nothing wrong. They have paid their rent, looked after their homes and worked hard. They are simply victims of a voracious landlord who always wants more.

Will the Prime Minister ensure that in the final weeks before the abolition of no fault evictions, his government do all they can to hold criterion capital to account?

12:30

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Can I thank her for raising this case? Renters should have security and I condemn any unfair evictions. I am proud Mr Speaker to be abolishing section 21, a practice that has pushed thousands of renters into homelessness. And I will make sure the Housing Minister looks at the case that she has raised Graham Stuart.

12:30

Rt Hon Graham Stuart MP (Beverley and Holderness, Conservative)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rural residents in Beverley and Holderness are reeling under the impact of higher fuel prices. Yet two days ago, the Chancellor said that in September, fuel duty would go up. So my constituents want to know, as the Leader of the Opposition repeatedly asked, is that fuel duty going to go up in September and add to the misery of my constituents or not? Prime Minister, for once in this place, give the House and the people of this country an answer, yes or no?

12:31

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Gill German is frozen. It'll be frozen until September in light, in light of what's happening in Iran. Of course, we'll look carefully at the situation, but his constituents need to know, and it's right that they know that it's frozen until September, not fair market.

12:31

Martin Rhodes MP (Glasgow North, Labour)

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Martin Rhodes. Mr. speaker, the devastating fire on Union Street in Glasgow has destroyed small businesses and an iconic part of the city's heritage. But the exceptional skill and courage of our emergency services prevented an even greater tragedy. We need a rapid, thorough investigation with urgent implementation of recommendations. Local businesses, commuters and residents are already feeling the impact and recovery must be a shared priority. Will the Prime Minister join me in thanking our emergency services and supporting efforts to rebuild this vital part of Glasgow?

12:32

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Prime Minister. devastating incident for Glasgow? My thoughts and I'm sure everybody's thoughts are with those who've seen their businesses and their livelihoods destroyed. Can I thank the emergency services who responded so quickly to the situation? And the people of Glasgow have seen far too many historic buildings suffer terrible fires over the last few years. And that's why we're investing to protect heritage buildings in England. But we'll keep a careful eye on the situation that he arises.

12:32

Stephen Gethins MP (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry, Scottish National Party)

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Stephen Gethins Mr. speaker, Mr. speaker, yesterday in the Welsh speaker, yesterday in the Welsh Senate, a secret Whitehall memo was called out by its members that showed this government's attitude to devolution, a muscular unionism that Boris Johnson would have been proud of. So can I ask the Prime Minister when Scottish and Welsh voters go to the polls, will he respect that decision? And furthermore, what is it about those elections that so seems to terrify him at the moment? Prime Minister? Well, Mr.

12:33

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Speaker, I'm not going to make any apologies for spending more money in Scotland or in Wales to improve people's lives. There have been record investment under this government in Scotland. The question is, where's the money gone?

12:33

Jen Craft MP (Thurrock, Labour)

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John Jen Craft. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last week, members from across this House and the Other place felt compelled to write to Jo Boydell, compelled to write to Jo Boydell, the chief executive of Travelodge, following reports that in 2022, a man was given a key card and the room number of a woman staying alone in one of their hotels by staff entered her room and sexually assaulted her. Most alarmingly, statements made by Travelodge implied that staff had acted fully in line with their security and safety protocols and within industry standards.

Will the Prime Minister join me in urging Miss Boydell to take us up on our invitation to meet with all interested members of this House and the other place to outline what action Travelodge are urgently taking to meet their duty to safeguard women staying in their hotel.

12:34

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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Can I thank her for raising this absolutely shocking case and and for talking to me last night about the the details of it. My thoughts are with the victim who had a right to be safe and who has failed in the most appalling way. Travelodge must take serious action to ensure such an appalling incident can never happen again. I'm concerned at reports that they haven't met members of Parliament. They should do so. And I should add that the safeguarding Minister wants to meet them as well, and they should do that as well.

12:34

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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The Vikki Slade. >> The Vikki Slade. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Two weeks ago it was confirmed that no extra time will be provided in the extra time will be provided in the other place to allow the assisted dying bill to complete its course. If this blocks the will of this democratically elected House, it will be a travesty for democracy and, more importantly, a tragedy for all those who are relying on it and have waited so long, not least my own dad.

Will he act now to prevent the dismissal of the views of 76% of the public, especially as other parts of our country approve it, and so secure a real legacy for social policy in this Parliament?

12:35

Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)

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The Prime. >> Can I thank her for raising this? And I know there are strong views and I acknowledge her personal connection in relation to this, connection in relation to this, which shows how serious the issues are. It is a matter of conscience. It's for Parliament to decide the passage of the legislation. Any changes? Scrutiny is a matter for the Other place. We have a

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responsibility to make sure any legislation is workable, effective and enforceable. That completes.

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Prime Minister's question. PMQs. But you didn't ask a

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PMQs. But you didn't ask a question, so is it relevant? But the points of order should come the points of order should come after statements in UQs. But I'll Come Come to Come to the Come to the Urgent Come to the Urgent Question Come to the Urgent Question Ian

12:36

Ian Lavery MP (Blyth and Ashington, Labour)

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Lavery. Mr Speaker. What assessment Lavery. Mr Speaker. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of Royal Mail's failure to meet its universal service obligation on universal service obligation on service users well-being and on the company's recent decision making,

12:37

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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which has contributed to this situation? Sir? Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thank you to the hon. Speaker, and thank you to the hon. Member for raising a question which I know is on hon. Members minds across the House. The government has been clear. The Royal Mail Service has not been good enough, and we recognise the terrible impact that delayed time sensitive deliveries, particularly relating to medical and financial matters, have on users of postal services and especially for vulnerable users.

Obviously, Royal Mail is a private company and Ofcom, the independent regulator for postal services. They secure the provision of the universal postal service and set and monitor Royal Mail's service standards. As part of that monitoring regime, Ofcom publishes annual post monitoring reports, which consider developments in the sector and users experience of postal services, as well as complaints and compensation data that Royal Mail is required to publish. I have regular discussions with senior officials from Ofcom as the regulator and in fact, Mr.

Speaker, I am meeting Ofcom later this afternoon to discuss these concerns. Ofcom fined Royal Mail £21 million in October for failure to meet standards for 2425, double the previous year's fine and a third consecutive annual fine for poor performance. Ofcom continues to monitor Royal Mail's performance carefully to ensure it is providing the service that customers expect. Ofcom has told Royal Mail that it must publish and deliver a credible plan that delivers significant and continuous improvement. But while Ofcom, the regulator, in response to concerns raised by hon.

Members across this House, I met Royal Mail CEO Alasdair Cochrane recently to set out the volume of complaints reporting service delays that I have received from colleagues and in addition to that meeting, the Secretary of State met Daniel Krzesinski, CEO of Royal Mail's parent company EP Group and chair of Royal Mail's board, and raised concerns about Royal Mail's performance. And senior officials from Ofcom met Mr. Krasinski that same day. The chief executives of Royal Mail and its parent company report that they agree that there is more to do to meet service delivery targets and improve stability and reliability for customers.

I know hon. Members will continue to raise their concerns on behalf of service within their area,

12:39

Ian Lavery MP (Blyth and Ashington, Labour)

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and for my part, I will continue to do so because the current situation do so because the current situation is simply not good enough. Ian Lavery. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. thank my hon. Friend for his answer. But you know, this goes beyond a few inconsequential letters being delayed. Indeed, it's not simply a case of receiving post, it's also about a timely manner, but sending about a timely manner, but sending post as well. In my constituency of Blyth and Ashington.

These failures have led to people missing medical appointments, financial issues and hindering the democratic participation. One of my constituents missed urgent medical correspondence during a routine appointment into a potentially life threatening emergency. It's not acceptable. This is happening up and down the country, in every single constituency in this place. Allegations from within Royal Mail suggest that these failures may be intentional, designed to pressure the government into weakening or removing the US requirements. Royal Mail's recent letter to the Business and Trade Committee denies operating a parcels first policy, contradicting repeated internal testimonies.

It flies in the face of local evidence from the workforce. The letter also reiterates calls for US reform, reflecting a long running corporate direction. Over the past few years. Postal workers, who are key public servants who were heroes during Covid, they've seen their terms and conditions eroded to the point that some can no longer buy additional holidays, because doing so would take their pay below the minimum wage. The government need to take serious action against Royal Mail. It's an option, is it not? Sorry.

An option to possibly bring back Royal Mail under public control. Mr. speaker, this is approaching the situation where one of our constituencies, her constituents, will lose their homes, their health or even their lives through these persistent failures. The government can and must take steps to maintain this critical national service. Minister. Mr.

12:41

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Member's anger, I think, is shared by hon. Members around the chamber when they hear the stories of people missing, not just hospital appointments, but people finding themselves with ccjs and other situations that are entirely not of their fault due to failures of delivery. We have told Royal Mail it is not good enough and the Select Committee has told them it is not good enough. Ofcom have told them it is not good enough. I think the seriousness with which we take this is exemplified by the fact, as I said, the Secretary of State has convened that meeting.

I have called in Royal Mail and as I mentioned a moment ago, I am meeting Ofcom later today to raise exactly the issues that my hon. Friend raises. Dahieh Harriett Baldwin.

12:42

Dame Harriett Baldwin MP (West Worcestershire, Conservative)

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Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, and thank you for granting this urgent question. And can I congratulate the hon. Member on achieving this urgent question, because we can see from the number of people who are interested in this topic just how serious this is across all our constituencies. And I can testify to the fact that in West Worcestershire, I have had an enormous amount of casework on this starting just before Christmas. But it's been hospital appointments missed.

It's been children's birthday cards not arriving. It's been condolence cards for recently widowed individuals, and it's been postal voting forms as well. So this is an absolutely critical issue. And I would reiterate that the universal service obligation is an obligation. It is an obligation bought Royal Mail with this government's approval in, I think, April 2025, the transaction went through the letter from Royal Mail that was received by the Business and Trade Committee yesterday revealed something like over 200 million letters have been delivered late this year, and I want to ask the Minister, in addition to the meetings that he has listed with Ofcom, what assessments he made as to how distressing this is being for all of our constituents, what impact does it having on people's wellbeing? Has he had a critical discussion with Ofcom because it appears that Ofcom is not really doing its job as a regulator.

The public are paying more, but they are getting less, and the fines that he has listed are really don't reflect the deterioration that we've seen recently. Now, in my discussions with Royal Mail, I've heard them say that parcels overwhelm them at Christmas, but this situation is carrying on now into March. Is it the reality that, in fact, parcels are much more.

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Order, order over time? I was trying to push her along to give me the answer, but there seems to be

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the answer, but there seems to be more pages coming no end. We can certainly now end by

12:45

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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>> We can certainly now end by asking for the Minister's plan in terms of Minister. >> I don't need that back. Come on. Thank you.

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Thank you. I think I hope she can tell from my my body language and tone that I my my body language and tone that I share the anger and frustration of, of of members across the House. As I mentioned, I am meeting Ofcom later today to raise the very issues that she makes. I will slightly take issue with the year zero approach that she took there. There are very long standing issues with Royal Mail, driven in fairness, by the changes in consumer habits and the things that we are sending and not sending any more.

She mentions the the new ownership as part of that deed of undertaking. This government got the assurance and the undertaking from the new owners that they could not take value out of the company until service improved. That shows that we take this seriously.

12:46

Lee Barron MP (Corby and East Northamptonshire, Labour)

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Lee Barron. refer members to my register of interest. It's not just the customers who are rightly angry, it's postal workers as well, because they take pride in their job. They take pride in the service that they give. Last time I was in Corby delivery office six deliveries never went out that day. The time before that, a postal worker volunteered to cover his own delivery on his day off. Was told he couldn't. When he went back in the day after the work was still there, the delivery hadn't gone out.

We've now got a two tier workforce leading to a recruitment and retention crisis, and it's a standing joke in the job that if the quickest way to get a letter delivered is to put it inside of a parcel, would the Minister agree with me that instead of imposing top down changes by people who have never done the job before, they should now listen to their workforce, sit down with the union and sort this mess out?

12:47

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Mr. >> Mr. >> Thank you. My hon. Friend gives me the opportunity to do what I have not done so far, which is to have not done so far, which is to say that whatever criticisms hon. Members across the House have, it is in no way a critique of the work of our heroic posties up and down, up and down the country. I mentioned earlier on, the Secretary of State brought together management and unions that we are a private company we're not seeking to insert ourselves into become mediators, but that was a signal of how seriously we take this and how seriously we take the need for them to come together and address, through mutual understanding, exactly the issues that my hon.

Friend raises. spokesperson.

12:47

Sarah Olney MP (Richmond Park, Liberal Democrat)

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Mr. speaker, in each year since 2023, Royal Mail has been fined by Ofcom over delivery delays. It amounts to nearly £40 million and following recent announcements, it wouldn't surprise me if they find again in 2026, when Royal Mail were reprimanded in 2023 and 2024, their leadership promised that reforms have been made to improve their services. But following the £21 million fine in October 2025, the company said it couldn't publish its improvement plan until negotiations with the Communication Workers Union concluded the takeover of Royal Mail, which this government supported, seems to have done nothing to improve the service so far.

Over the past several years, an average of roughly 1 in 4 first class stamp letters arrives late and now. Recent reports suggest that 219 million letters may arrive late this year. These letters are sometimes urgent and hold important information, so it is clear that Royal Mail are repeatedly failing to meet their universal service obligation. But despite this, their stamp prices have consistently risen. This includes next month's planned rise of SNP in the cost of first class postage, taking the cost of a stamp to £1.80.

The sorry saga of Royal Mail has gone on for far too long, with the Minister tell me whether he believes the British public should be paying more for their postal service, despite Royal Mail repeatedly failing to deliver their letters on time.

12:49

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Paying more for postage is obviously part of the journey towards financial sustainability for Royal Mail as a critical piece of national infrastructure, but I absolutely agree with her that if if our constituents are paying more for their stamps, they expect those letters to arrive and it is not good enough if they aren't. She mentions Ofcom. As I said, I'm meeting with them later on. They have required from Royal Mail their improvement plan. We think that's that's long overdue.

And one of the issues that I will be raising with Ofcom later on is progress with that improvement plan.

12:49

Chris Webb MP (Blackpool South, Labour)

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Can I refer the House, my register of interests, as a. We know that they are working day in, day out to get these letters out, but we know they are being told to prioritise parcels. I tried to go into my mail centre just before Christmas, as many do. Mr. speaker, I know you do the same, but I was denied and excuse was given and it's never been rearranged. Work is in there. Came to me and said they are trying to hide how bad it is in that mail centre from you as the local MP.

So will the Minister outline to the House and to my constituents how we can turn this around? And I fundamentally disagree with the hon. Member saying that this started with these new owners. This started from privatisation end of. But how can we get this back on track and can the government look at nationalising this service so our residents can get the letters that they desperately need for their appointments? Well.

12:50

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Sister. >> Sister. >> So I'm troubled to hear that he has not been allowed access to talk has not been allowed access to talk to his local sorting office. I think all of us have a staple in our diaries to to go and visit the sorting office at Christmas or at other times of the year, and it's a really important part of the job as an MP. And I think he references something else, which is the anger that the postal themselves feel at this.

This is not just a job for them. They feel that this is a service and they, as much as anyone else, recognise that this is simply not good enough. On the issue of the prioritisation of parcels, Ofcom had examined this a few years ago and had found that there was no evidence of it as a policy centrally. But I have heard from so many members stories about the prioritisation of parcels, and so it is something I intend to raise with Ofcom later this afternoon.

12:51

Rt Hon Mark Pritchard MP (The Wrekin, Conservative)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I did meet the Minister some weeks ago and I did suggest to him he might have to come back to the House if the Royal Mail had not improved their services. But can I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for granting this urgent question? Can I also thank you for granting the Westminster Hall debate next week on the 18th table by another member. Mr. speaker, you will know I raised this issue on the 13th of January as a point of order, and clearly the problem has got worse rather than better.

I would like to put on record my thanks to all the posts. I think the whole House would like to thank all the work that they do in all of our constituencies, and this has had a huge social and economic impact on individuals throughout our constituencies. But what concerns me to be fair, is the Minister has referred to can't intervene on a private company and is of course an independent regulator. So what can the Minister do? And if there's nothing he can do, perhaps he'll be coming back in a few weeks.

Time to repeat. There's nothing he can do. But how does that help people that are waiting for medical results and other important information?

12:52

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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It's a very fair question in terms of our action. As I mentioned, the Secretary of State brought together the ownership and the management to stress the need to get an agreement to get the reforms and to get the service standards improved. These things are all connected. I myself have obviously stressed, in no uncertain terms, my own dissatisfaction with current levels of service on NHS letters. Myself and colleagues in the Department for health are pressing to make sure that more NHS bodies take advantage of the barcode system, to make sure that those letters are prioritised.

So it is a private company, but we are exercising the pressure that we can to ensure that standards are improved. improved.

12:53

Melanie Onn MP (Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes, Labour)

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Melanie Onn speaker. My understanding is that letters must not be treated less favourably than parcels, but that absolutely is the case at the moment, with internal Royal Mail targets. And that is the case at my Fotherby Street sorting office in Grimsby. The tract at first policy is in place. That means that parcels do take priority letters and non tract mail is is then not prioritised. So first and second class cards, letters etc. they are left sitting in frames for days and weeks.

That builds up as we've heard from other members today. There is also an issue about route revisions becoming issues for our posties, some of whom are regularly walking 30 to 40,000 steps a day that is causing exhaustion, injury and illness. Now, my question is, it is not acceptable in any way for the government to say it cannot do anything. What is the government going to do to force Ofcom to take action that will really get things moving and change this policy? That leaves people's letters sat in their frames for days.

12:55

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Minister this frustration that my hon. Friend voices about the the disconnect from what she is hearing disconnect from what she is hearing from local sorting offices compared to what is stated as a company policy, and it was one that is shared across the house. As I say on that issue of the prioritisation of parcels is something I am going to raise with Ofcom later today on those wider issues of working conditions for the Posties. As I said, the Secretary of State has brought together the owners and the company to stress our view in terms of the importance of progressing those issues and getting to a situation where quality of service improves and where the the workforce feel properly rewarded and respected.

and respected.

12:55

Simon Hoare MP (North Dorset, Conservative)

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Simon Hoare Mr Speaker. The postal delivery landscape is a fast moving one, as the Minister will recognise. And I suppose, as evidenced by the fact that in Denmark very recently they have ended entirely their postal service. Everybody now has to just use a private courier. What, wait, does he put on the words of Royal Mail that they recognised the problems and are working hard? Does he take that in good faith? And a critique from Royal Mail, who clearly recognise that there are problems, is that sometimes the slow speed of response from Ofcom to suggestions from Royal Mail, which are disjointed from the fact that this is a very fast moving landscape in a very competitive sphere.

So when he meets Ofcom this afternoon, could he urge them to speedily respond, to try to progress issues as they manifest themselves?

12:56

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Minister I thank him for that helpful and practical suggestion. I will certainly add it to the agenda of the meeting later on, and report back to him on the outcomes of those discussions.

12:56

Liz Twist MP (Blaydon and Consett, Labour)

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Liz Twist thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Blyth and Ashington for raising this UQ, because, as he will know, it's an experience that too many constituents are suffering from now. I started when this first happened, corresponding with Royal Mail and asking why this was happening, and got polite replies. But frankly, at this stage Minister fine words butter, no parsnips. We really need to see some action. So can I urge the Minister to push Ofcom to take action on this issue?

12:57

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Mid Leicestershire I thank my hon. Friend for that and as ever, she's a doughty campaigner for everyone in the communities she represents. I will certainly be pressing Ofcom on these issues and will continue to press Royal Mail directly as well, to stress that we want to see an improvement in standards and that current standards of delivery are simply not good enough. Helen Morgan.

12:57

Helen Morgan MP (North Shropshire, Liberal Democrat)

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Mr Speaker and Murrell parts of the country like North Shropshire, where broadband, mobile signal and public transport is very poor. People are really dependent on their postal service. Where I live, people have contacted me to say that they have missed court documents, NHS letters, really important things for them to be able to get on with their lives. I visited the sorting office as well as the prioritisation of parcels, which I've been told about about by posters. The rounds are too long.

The conditions that the postal workers work under are not good enough, and so there's a real recruitment and retention issue. What can Ofcom do to ensure that Royal Mail is putting the resources in place to make sure that letters can be delivered on time in rural Minister.

12:58

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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So as I as I mentioned a moment ago, I think unfortunately the story she tells are familiar to me because I've heard it from so many hon. Members around this chamber in terms of what can we do? As I say, we are, we've been bringing together workforce management to make sure that the talks on reforms, to get the business into sustainable footing and to ensure that quality of service improves, we will be bringing that together, and I will be raising those issues

12:58

Navendu Mishra MP (Stockport, Labour)

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around the privatisation of parcels with Ofcom later this afternoon. Navendu Mishra thank you, Mr. Navendu Mishra thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can I refer the House to my register of interests? Can I also thank all postal workers in Stockport and across the UK? I Stockport and across the UK? I think it's important to highlight that it was a coalition. Partners, Liberal Democrats and Conservatives, Liberal Democrats and Conservatives, who privatised Royal Mail. Mr. speaker, I ran a survey online regarding services by Royal Mail in regarding services by Royal Mail in my constituency, and 89% of respondents said that they were unhappy, angry or disappointed by the by the service in Stockport.

One of the examples was that mail wasn't delivered for almost two weeks, and then all of it was delivered on the same day, meaning that important appointments and information was missed. Can I please press the Minister? Mr. speaker, in terms of what is he specifically going to do to improve services in Stockport and Greater Manchester, which is approximately 3 million people?

12:59

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Bill Esterson well join him in paying tribute to post Stockport, Greater Manchester, Posties all across the country they go the extra mile in incredibly difficult circumstances. As I mentioned earlier on, we are bringing together unions and management to make sure that we get to a resolution on those talks and progress at the future of the business and also pressing Ofcom in terms of the enforcement action that they can take to progress the improvement plan, which Royal Mail Tugendhat.

13:00

Rt Hon Tom Tugendhat MP (Tonbridge, Conservative)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just recently, Royal Mail in Tonbridge introduced a new working model which has been, quite frankly, an abject failure. I very much welcome the hon. Member bringing this urgent question, because this is quite clearly not just a matter for one constituency or one community, but for the whole country. I'm very grateful that the Minister, who I know is assiduous in his role, will take this up. But will he particularly raise with the management that while we all recognise that this is not just about privatisation or ownership, it is about the change in the way people use the post and the way we use emails and so on.

It does actually have a very real effect on people's lives, and particularly in communities like mine in Tonbridge. I am not the only one who has missed appointments because the letter arrived weeks, even months after the appointment I was supposed to attend Minister.

13:01

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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So I know from my own discussion with officials on this that he's been in discussions with the particular issues Tonbridge and that Royal Mail are seized of those. He is absolutely right. Members have raised hospital appointments and other things. I think it is also worth saying that the very important posts that we as hon. Members, send to often very vulnerable constituents is also important, and it is a reminder of how this is such a central part of our national life and our economy, and we have to see it improve.

13:01

Natasha Irons MP (Croydon East, Labour)

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Natasha Irons thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can I thank the Member for securing this urgent question in my constituency of Croydon East. We've had a massive uptick in complaints around letters being delivered late, but things like people paying for time, paying for priority services and that not happening, but also constituents being advised to collect post from delivery officers without prior notification of an attempted delivery, essentially becoming their own. Royal mail now having to meet, having met with workers locally over Christmas.

I know that they are working incredibly hard to keep on top of this, and are just as frustrated as as my residents. So. And when we raised my, my biggest concern is when we as members have raised this with Royal Mail, their response to us has been, quite frankly, rude and dismissive and a bit lacklustre. So can the Minister please outline what he will do to take action to ensure these postal services are protected? In my community and for communities across this country?

13:02

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Minister. Croydon for the efforts that they are making. They do an extraordinary job. I think she hits the nail on the head that we sometimes might have lower standards for other delivery operators in the economy, but we expect a certain level of service from Royal Mail. And when people are paying more through stamps or they're paying for special delivery, they absolutely should expect to get what they are paying for. As I said, these are issues that I am raising directly with Royal Mail that we are bringing together the workforce and the management, and I am meeting Ofcom later on today.

13:03

Jess Brown-Fuller MP (Chichester, Liberal Democrat)

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Jess Brown-Fuller. established well today, who are doing all they can to deliver a service. But it lies with the private company that is putting telling their staff to prioritise parcels and then pretending that that's not their policy. Constituents in my area of Chichester have received hospital appointments. Four days after the appointment was due to take place, one constituent in Selsey received their letter for a specialist appointment in London an hour before that appointment was due to take place.

So what can the Minister do to put pressure on Royal Mail so that my constituents health is not put at risk with their failures?

13:03

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Mr. >> Well, our constituents in Chichester deserve better, frankly, and that is why it is so important and that is why it is so important that we send a clear message to the government that we expect that improvement. So why I am having those conversations with Ofcom. It is also why when the new ownership took over Royal Mail, we received that undertaking that they would not be able to take value out of the company until they improved, to try to ensure that there is an incentive for them to do better.

13:04

Ian Byrne MP (Liverpool West Derby, Labour)

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Ian Byrne thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Communications Workers Union report on chaos and demoralisation amongst its members as a result of the imposition of pay and conditions for Posties and the company's decision to prioritise potential job cuts over service. When it comes to US reform. Can the Minister outline what the government is doing to ensure the Royal Mail customers and workers are not made to pay the price of the mismanagement of our postal services, including utilising any powers allocated to the Golden Share.

13:04

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Yeah, Minister. part of that deed of undertaking was that we would not allow them to remove value from the company until service improved. In terms of those negotiations and the impact on on the workforce. Obviously, these are negotiations between the workforce and management, but I think the fact that the Secretary of State has been convening these meetings shows that we take this very seriously, and it is a priority for our department.

13:05

Aphra Brandreth MP (Chester South and Eddisbury, Conservative)

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Aphra Brandreth Mr. many of my constituents across Chester South and Eddisbury have been in touch about the poor levels of mail service. One constituent in Kelsall actually reached out to Royal Mail themselves after experiencing deliveries once per week at best, only to receive a reply from Royal Mail stating that service levels in our area are good. Yet that same constituent later received a hospital appointment letter after the hospital appointment itself, which is certainly not good.

So does the Minister share my concern that Royal Mail appears to be dismissing legitimate complaints while failing to meet their universal service obligation? And what more can be done to hold Royal Mail to account?

13:06

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Thank you. Well, she's previously pressed me on another aspect of postal services. The availability of post offices in her constituency, and she continues to campaign for her constituents. I can say I, I share the frustration in any situation as a member of Parliament where you raise a concern and you are told that everything is actually fine and not to worry about it. And it's precisely because I share that concern that I am having that meeting with Ofcom later on today.

13:06

Bill Esterson MP (Sefton Central, Labour)

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Bill Esterson Mr Speaker. Well, the Royal Mail excuses are wearing very, very thin, aren't they? I have constituents who are going to the sorting offices and being presented with piles of letters weeks worth, and I have other constituents who, when their letters are being delivered, they're getting those same piles delivered in one go. So the Minister talked about Ofcom. I think he said he's meeting them today. Can I ask him then does he think the regulator needs additional powers? Because it's very clear from his answers so far.

And the fact we're still here today, after months of this going on, that something isn't working. So can I encourage him to consider whether the regulator needs more and what he can do as a result of that? Mr.

13:07

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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I'll certainly talk to the regulator later today in those terms and ask that question. As I say, I think the the this is a business that is regulated through Ofcom. But where government has power, we are taking it, as I mentioned a moment ago, for example, within that deed of undertaking that the company has made our insistence that they cannot strip money out of the company until service improves.

13:07

Brendan O'Hara MP (Argyll, Bute and South Lochaber, Scottish National Party)

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Brendan O'Hara. it's the failure of Royal Mail to meet its USO or the skyrocketing price of heating oil, it seems that rural communities such as Argyll Bute and South Constituency are most impacted. We are all agreed that despite the often heroic efforts by the workforce to service provided by Royal Mail management is totally unacceptable. The Minister knows that we are 60 days from a Scottish parliamentary election in which 1 million people will vote by post. How confident is he that Royal Mail will be able to cope? And what measures is he putting in place to ensure that they do?

13:08

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Well, Mr. Speaker, with >> Well, Mr. Speaker, with relatives in the most remote parts of Scotland myself, I know that for the rest of us this might be an the rest of us this might be an inconvenience. For rural customers in particular, it can be the stripping away of a lifeline. We have sought reassurances from Royal Mail that the current issues with service across the country will not impact on postal voting. In the elections that are coming up, and I know that the chief executive of Royal Mail has a specific meeting in Scotland to discuss preparations and in the days ahead.

13:09

Lola McEvoy MP (Darlington, Labour)

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Lola McEvoy thank you, Mr. >> Lola McEvoy thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to put on record that despite testimony to the contrary, it is Darlington postal workers who are in fact the best in the country, and they deliver their service to the best of their abilities. But they also provide a social service, reaching residents where they often only visit the only visit that resident gets. I want to draw the minister's attention to two cases that have been brought to me from constituents, which have been quite shocking.

One is, despite using the tracking system application forms for constituents to join the Royal Navy have gone awry, and that's obviously causing huge delays. And the second one is that one of my constituents successfully gained compensation from Royal Mail for a late delivery. But the check which was sent in the post bounced. So I would like I'd like the Minister to allay some of the fears that we've got around the crucial public services and the communication via post, going out from our departments and arm's length bodies.

13:10

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Thank you. I think that's a very late delivery just to help late delivery just to help everybody. I'm going to finish at half past. So let's help each other by being speedy. And the Minister is going to show me how he can

**** Possible New Speaker ****

is going to show me how he can reply quickly. I am she makes a really important point, although I noticed that everything seems to be the best in her constituency. It's not just missed post, it's missed opportunities like the one that she describes. And that's exactly why we're going to continue to pressurise directly and through the regulator to improve the service in areas like hers.

13:10

Bob Blackman MP (Harrow East, Conservative)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Voters >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Voters in my constituency have reported to me that one of the most serious me that one of the most serious problems is staff absence, because they've been overworked and therefore they go off sick and those deliveries do not take place. And the final straw for my constituents was when one of my constituents received a Christmas card on the 28th of February that had been franked before Christmas. So clearly, there's a serious problem here, not just in rural areas, but in suburban areas as well.

So could I ask the Minister seek an urgent action plan on getting this right from Royal Mail? Because otherwise we're going to be back here another months time with the same problem.

13:11

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Mr. >> Mr. >> He he could be mistaken for being a trade union official there. I get you'll be cross the floor, but I mean, he makes he makes a really important and serious point, which is that those issues of staff conditions is are directly related to the efforts around quality of service, which is exactly why the Secretary of State has been convening these meetings to progress those talks.

13:11

Helen Hayes. failings for years, particularly in the SE 22 and 24 postcode areas. Residents in SE 24 recently had no mail for four weeks. A key problem in holding Royal Mail to account is that they are only required to report on their performance data on the first part of the postcode. This means that failures in individual delivery offices are disguised by subregional data. Will the Minister raise this issue with Ofcom and ask them to look again at the reporting requirements on Royal

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Mail so that they can be held properly to account? Minister. As a former resident of 23, I'll

13:12

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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>> As a former resident of 23, I'll pay tribute to the posties in your part of the world and I'll certainly add the suggestion she

13:12

certainly add the suggestion she makes to the agenda of the meeting later today. Speaker. >> Does the Minister recognise that

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Does the Minister recognise that meeting? The universal service obligation is a challenge because of poor recruitment and retention, and that this is no surprise when Royal Mail offers new posts, men and women little more than minimum wage and sites are really not fit for purpose.

13:12

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Yeah. >> So he raises a really important point that's core to the talks that are going on right now between are going on right now between unions and management. And it is exactly why we are so keen to make sure that those are productive and come to a settlement that deals with the issues that he describes. Speaker. Speaker.

13:13

Phil Brickell MP (Bolton West, Labour)

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Can I thank the Minister for his constructive engagement with me over the past few weeks around Royal Mail's poor services in my Bolton West constituency. I know he shares my utter frustration at the current service provision. I just want to flag with the Minister himself a letter I sent to a constituent on the 13th of February, updating constituents about the progress I've made with him on this matter. A constituent got in touch with me to say that letter itself was only received on the 25th of February.

12 days later, alongside missing correspondence from the DVLA, the NHS and the Department for Work and Pensions, and another constituent constituent in Bolton received a Christmas card posted before the 14th of December that

**** Possible New Speaker ****

came through on the 7th of March. When will my constituents see an improvement in Royal Mail's? Can we try and shorten them?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Can we try and shorten them? Because some people's not going to get in. And that's what's really worrying me, because I know it

13:14

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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worrying me, because I know it matters to all of us, especially like myself, who's got the best post office and best boss? >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will reassure his constituents that his efforts to transmit the dissatisfaction has been heard at the highest level. If there was a prize for dark irony, I think he's probably just won it. It's because we want to see this improve as quickly as possible that we are taking the action that I have described, and it's why we will Thomas.

13:14

Bradley Thomas MP (Bromsgrove, Conservative)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. posties across Bromsgrove, but not to the management of Royal Mail. What my constituents need to see is action, not more platitudes. When Royal Mail respond to me saying they're very sorry that letters haven't been received. So can I implore on the Minister, please get together with the management of Royal Mail and Ofcom, deliver an action plan that's accountable to himself and us via the Minister, to see an improved service for all of our constituents.

13:14

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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I reassure them that exactly the type of frustration that he has just described, which I have heard from so many hon. Members, is what I have already communicated to Royal Mail and I will do to Ofcom later as well.

13:15

Brian Leishman MP (Alloa and Grangemouth, Labour)

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Brian Leishman. workers from across Alloa and Grangemouth. I know morale is rock bottom because years of savage cuts and restructuring that has negatively impacted their ability to do their job. Does the government accept that the erosion of both the service and workforce morale is due to privatisation and an essential public service like Royal Mail should be under public ownership for the public good? And if I may, Mr. Speaker, when will the government effectively hold bodies like Ofcom to account because their inaction and impotence is costing our constituents dearly?

13:15

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Well, he is absolutely right to >> Well, he is absolutely right to point out that this is the result of very long standing and structural issues within Royal Mail structural issues within Royal Mail and postal services more generally. My focus later today with Ofcom is to ensure that they are pressed to deal with exactly the issues that Slade.

13:16

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I align myself with all of everybody's stories, but in one area of Sturminster Marshall, they received two deliveries across the whole of January, and then the Royal Mail tried to blame the flooding that happened at the beginning of February for why their letters weren't delivered. So I don't trust anything they're saying, but I'm concerned about my Posties literally brought to tears on the doorstep, being told they can't have any overtime when their advertising posts and they can't complete their rounds.

They have explained to me that they are being expected to manage their decline. So what is the Minister doing to stand up for these frontline communities?

13:16

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, she's right to pay tribute to her local posties. It's because we recognise that connection between the sustainability of Royal Mail and the Postal Service, and the conditions of workers, and the importance of the talks that are going on, that Secretary of State has been convening the meetings he is convening and will continue to do so.

13:17

Bracknell. >> Thank you. >> Mr. Speaker. This situation is completely intolerable, as everybody's described. But will the Minister confirm that if the owners continue to fail to discharge their obligations as a matter of urgency, the option of taking Royal Mail back into public ownership will be fully considered because it's popular with the public. Minister.

13:17

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Well, our focus at the moment is >> Well, our focus at the moment is on ensuring that the talks that are underway are productive and end underway are productive and end with measures that will get the delivery service improved and the business onto a sustainable footing. As I mentioned a moment ago, we do have that undertaking that the owners are not allowed to take value out of the company until those service standards improve.

13:17

Martin Vickers MP (Brigg and Immingham, Conservative)

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Martin Vickers thank. >> Mr. Speaker. >> My constituents who lodged a complaint with the the local Royal complaint with the the local Royal Mail, are receiving messages which says we're sorry to advise that deliveries in parts of the 31 to 37 postcodes are being disrupted due to resourcing issues at Grimsby Delivery Office. Can the Minister give an assurance that if he's not already done so, he is urged Royal Mail to deal with these staffing resources because it's in the short term, it's an acceptable reason,

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but not in the long term. Yeah. Whenever hon. Members raise

13:18

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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>> Whenever hon. Members raise local delivery issues with me, I do raise it through officials directly with Royal Mail. I will certainly

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with Royal Mail. I will certainly do so in his area because his constituents deserve a better service. Lizzi Collinge thank you, Mr.

13:18

Lizzi Collinge MP (Morecambe and Lunesdale, Labour)

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>> Lizzi Collinge thank you, Mr. Speaker. People across Morecambe and Lunesdale are suffering from late Royal Mail deliveries and in fact, one constituent was told by a frustrated, overworked postie that second class letters were being delivered once a week at most. So can I ask the Minister what steps he's taking to address this problem?

13:18

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Minister well, the service our constituents are getting clearly constituents are getting clearly isn't good enough. We have met with Royal Mail to say that the situation is not good enough. We are bringing together workforce and management to progress the talks, which will enable us to improve those standards. And as I say, I'll be meeting Ofcom later on today to express her concerns.

13:19

Carla Lockhart MP (Upper Bann, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Lock up. Royal Mail's senior leadership. It's certainly not of our local posties and Upper Bann. They are indeed excellent. And also to my liaison officer and Royal Mail, who has gone above and beyond to get information flowing. Staff are at breaking point. Absences and gaps. We have ten vacancies in Banbridge depot. Letter delayed. You know the score. The big issue is hospital letters. Can you liaise with the trust in Northern Ireland sir?

13:19

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Yes, and I will raise the issues >> Yes, and I will raise the issues with Banbury sorting offices directly with Royal Mail. And in addition to the work I'm doing with the Department for health, I will make sure that we are having that conversation with health bodies in Northern Ireland.

13:19

Gareth Snell MP (Stoke-on-Trent Central, Labour )

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Now. Security and Investment Act to extract a golden share because it considered Royal Mail to be national critical infrastructure, I do find it slightly odd that we then, having recognised the importance, think there's nothing we could do. So would the Minister commit to consider taking powers that he might need to do direct intervention to make sure that our constituents, including mine in Stoke-on-Trent Central, get the letters on time when they want them?

13:20

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Well, he's right to speak on behalf of his constituents and demand better service in terms of what we can do. As I say, we are working through the regulator to make sure that services improve and are meeting them later today, but also intervening to bring together workforce and management to make sure that the talks, which are crucial for making those improvements progress. Speaker.

13:20

Ben Obese-Jecty MP (Huntingdon, Conservative)

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I would like to concur with members across the House that this does not look, the fault here does not lie with our individual posties. I'd like to pay tribute to to Dean and Aaron, who have been fantastic as my posties in Brampton in my constituency, but I've been written to by Royal Mail employees in my constituency about the the new contract and the pressure that puts on. With 50% of new postal workers leaving within their first year. Could the Minister guarantee that he'll speak to Ofcom about equalising those pay and conditions, to make sure that we don't see as many staff leaving?

13:21

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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So the question of equalising, paying attention be a matter for those talks, which is why we are, through the Secretary of State, bringing together the owner and the trade unions to have those discussions. I would also pay tribute to Dean and Aaron, who can now say that they've had their names mentioned at the Dispatch Box Lorraine Beavers.

13:21

Lorraine Beavers MP (Blackpool North and Fleetwood, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am a proud CW yu member. Pulses in my constituencies are clear that the problems at Royal Mail are the previous board's financial mismanagement, along with lower wages and longer hours and poorer conditions. The Conservatives and the Lib Dems were warned that this would happen, but they privatised it anyway. Will the government commit to ensuring that the new owners stick to the agreement with the CWU and government, meet the universal service obligations and ensure that my constituents get the service they deserve?

13:22

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Well, she's right. Her >> Well, she's right. Her constituents absolutely deserve better and she is right to highlight the long standing issues highlight the long standing issues which we are now trying to deal with. And absolutely, Royal Mail should meet all of the obligations that they have entered into.

13:22

Claire Young MP (Thornbury and Yate, Liberal Democrat)

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Claire Young thank. have written to me about Royal Mail failures, failures that I have raised with Ofcom. Ofcom tell me they cannot investigate local complaints and Royal Mail won't act on them. So will the Minister commit to reviewing Ofcom's powers to hold Royal Mail to account at a local level?

13:22

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Minister. the question of Ofcom in terms of their assessment of the powers that they have within this space, and I will keep our updated on that.

13:23

Lauren Edwards MP (Rochester and Strood, Labour)

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But Mr Speaker. >> Before I became a member of Parliament, I worked for the Communication Workers Union at the time of Royal Mail privatisation, and I am sad to say that much of and I am sad to say that much of what we feared would happen has come true. Now, residents in my constituency in green reported receiving no first or second class mail for weeks, like other members have reported. But the incident I'd like to highlight is one where Network Rail had to hand-deliver letters to residents to ensure that they were aware of the impending closure of a critical rail crossing because Royal Mail service could not be relied upon.

So, does the right hon. Friend agree with me that the service to my constituents is completely unacceptable, and that Royal Mail needs to focus on addressing their significant recruitment and retention challenges, which have been made worse by the introduction of a two tier workforce in 2020.

13:23

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Well, the example she gives with Network Rail is a reminder, as my hon. Friend just said a second ago that this is critical national infrastructure that we rely on in in moments like that. The the issues that she discusses in terms of the terms and conditions is exactly why we have made it a priority. And the Secretary of State is bringing together management and workforce to discuss these issues.

13:24

Rt Hon David Mundell MP (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, Conservative)

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David Mundell thank you, Mr. Speaker. I had the opportunity to meet with with senior management of the Post Office. Sorry, of Royal Mail yesterday after constituents in the Clydesdale area of my constituency, Simon Hoare Thankerton, had not received any mail at all for over ten days. But I particularly want to return to the issue of postal voting in the Scottish and other elections. I do not think reassurances from Royal Mail are enough. I think the Minister and others need to see a plan, so that we know that postal votes will be delivered, collected and taken to the electoral authorities.

And I want him to reassure us that he will get such a plan.

13:24

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Well, we'll continue to to seek those reassurances and to look for those reassurances and the plan behind them. As I mentioned, with regards to the Scottish elections, there is a specific meeting between the management and CEO of Royal Mail and the election authorities in Scotland coming up to discuss exactly the concerns that he has raised.

13:25

Alan Strickland MP (Newton Aycliffe and Spennymoor, Labour)

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Alan Strickland. >> Alan Strickland. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I met a resident of my surgery at the weekend with a long term health weekend with a long term health condition who is being sent testing packs by the NHS, arriving late, appointment letters being delayed. This is having a huge impact on her health. When the Minister meets Ofcom later, will he raise these very serious impacts not just on our residents but on our National Health Service? Of the unacceptable delays in Rommel.

13:25

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Minister. concerns with Ofcom. He raises not just a problem in terms of important medical post getting through, but it is also an opportunity when you have something like Royal Mail, which is a part of the critical national infrastructure which can reach every part of the country, their ability to deliver those things is a business opportunity for them as well, and they need to get it right.

13:25

Andrew George MP (St Ives, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It was my privilege on Monday to visit the the Helstone sorting office, where I discovered staff there burdened with remote, counterproductive micromanagement of their of their work and inadequate plans to to deal with the inevitability of staff absences. But I was also distressed to hear them described that they had been abused and threatened when undertaking their work in the front line. Does the Minister agree with me that frontline workers should be praised and also have management systems which empower them to resolve matters locally?

13:26

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Well, I think he can tell from the comments around the House how much respect and affection there is for posts around the country. I am disturbed by what he describes there. Ultimately, the only sustainable future for Royal Mail will be from bringing together a workforce who are really passionate about what they do, with a management who are seeking to get the company into financially sustainable position. That is why we are prioritising the talks that are going on at the moment.

Speaker.

13:26

Alex McIntyre MP (Gloucester, Labour)

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Gloucester residents have been let down by Royal Mail for years. They're prioritising parcels over posts and profits over our posts. I've got a visit to Gloucester North delivery office on Friday, and I was shocked to find out from the front lines that they're offering overtime to clear the backlog before I get in there to visit them. Ofcom have proven to be utterly toothless in this. They are not regulating properly and Royal Mail are baking those fines into their business plans.

So what more can we do to give Ofcom the bite that they need to improve service for Gloucester residents?

13:27

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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NIC Minister. constant campaigner and constantly in my ear on these issues on behalf of his constituents. As I said later on today, I am talking to Ofcom about their role in this and I will keep my hon. Friend updated on it.

13:27

Luke Taylor MP (Sutton and Cheam, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> Residents across my. >> Constituency of Sutton and Cheam, particularly the Smn1, Smn2 and Sm3 postcodes, have been reporting issues with their deliveries for years. Local social media is full of people reporting one day a week deliveries, asking which other roads this is occurring on. I visited my delivery office for the last two Christmases. Meeting hard working posters have just been let down by the system. I'd like to particularly shout out to Timmy, who's been delivering my road for decades and is approaching retirement, so congratulations to him.

Can the Minister please add Sutton to the list of his agenda this afternoon, and also report back next Wednesday to the Westminster Hall debate, which I imagine he'll be coming to with clear actions from his meeting this afternoon.

13:28

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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I'll also pay tribute to Timmy and thank him for his years of service. It is exactly because it is a service full of people like him who are passionate about their job, that we need to ensure that Royal Mail has a reforms and improvements in quality of service. Chairman.

13:28

Josh Newbury MP (Cannock Chase, Labour)

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Graham told me that his wife jury service letter arrived too late for her to defer calling for Britain. Had a hospital letter arrived three days after the appointment and Michael from Rugeley, waited weeks for a new debit card. These were first class letters, so planned reforms to the universal service obligation wouldn't have made much of a difference. Will the Minister impress on the leadership of Royal Mail the human impact of these delays on posts and residents?

13:29

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Minister. Royal Mail standards impact on so many different aspects of his constituents lives. I will certainly use those examples when I next meet with Royal Mail.

13:29

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Jim Shannon briefly. appointment, you go to the back of the queue. You start again. You might wait another two years. So whenever the Minister has his meeting with Royal Mail today, can I ask him to convey to Royal Mail to have meetings with them in the health trust and the patient groups as well, and the Northern Ireland represent to ensure that those who miss appointments due to delays in their Royal Mail will not be disadvantaged because, quite clearly they are at this moment.

13:29

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Well, he makes a really important point. As I mentioned a moment ago, we are working with the health department here to make sure that as many as possible health bodies take advantage of that barcode service that is available to make sure that they get through. And I will certainly make sure that the issues that are raised in Northern Ireland.

13:30

Alex Mayer. letters are late. One that stood out to me, a constituent raised was about a parking fine, and by the time it had arrived, it almost doubled in price. The Royal Mail locally tell me that they're recruiting 12 new postal workers. But if that doesn't fix it, what should we try next?

13:30

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Minister continue to speak to me. She grabbed me at the votes the other night about local Royal Mail issues, and I know she'll continue to do so.

13:30

Steve Race MP (Exeter, Labour)

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Is he going to finish Steve Race? in Exeter have raised exactly the same concerns as other people in the House today. Can the Minister give an assessment of how he thinks Ofcom has dealt with this so far? And does he have confidence in Ofcom to get to the get a grip on this issue?

13:31

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Mr. Well. >> We rely on Ofcom as the regulator of of royal Mail and that is exactly why we are having this meeting later today to discuss what meeting later today to discuss what more they can do to deal with the very obviously widespread concerns that exist across the House about quality of service.

13:31

Thank you very much. system broke down, but the problems are not limited to NHS letters. I want to highlight the government's tell us once service following a bereavement. Many hon. Members will know the urgency and distressing nature of that correspondence. So will the Minister, who has been will the Minister, who has been extremely active dealing with constituency concerns. Look at this issue of prioritisation of non NHS letters.

13:31

Laurence Turner MP (Birmingham Northfield, Labour)

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Minister.

13:31

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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In a previous life I was very proud to have worked on the inception of the tell us once service and I know how important it is to people in, you know, the worst possible time of their life and I will certainly raise the issue to discuss this.

13:31

Tom Hayes MP (Bournemouth East, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As the Labour Member of Parliament for Labour Member of Parliament for Bournemouth East, I stand by my post here in the House of Commons and I thank them for their dedication and their diligence, something that stands in sharp contrast to the management of the Royal Mail. The trial underway has failed. The new approach will spectacularly fail if put into effect. Will the Minister, when he meets later with Ofcom and again with the Royal Mail, say that he will not stand for the Royal Mail, becoming yet another gig economy parcel courier that exploits its employees and lets down customers.

13:32

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Well, this is a government that is improving the working conditions is improving the working conditions and standards and rights of workers across the economy. It makes a really important point that there is wisdom, there is experience within the workforce, and it is about these talks are going on at the moment, are about bringing that together with the ambition and the responsibilities of the management, and that is why we are taking the actions we.

13:32

David Burton-Sampson MP (Southend West and Leigh, Labour)

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Are David Burton-Sampson. the to the USO. It failed and what is clear nine months later is it is still failing. So I have today summoned management to meet with me and my constituents to hear first hand the challenges this is causing. Will he meet with me following that meeting to hear that feedback and take it right up the chain?

13:33

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Yes. brought to me, if you like, local intelligence, which informs my understanding of the issues across the Postal Service.

13:33

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Residents in Ardsley. >> Robin Hood, Lofthouse, parts of Tingley and Morley are all complaining that they've been waiting up to three weeks for postal service, and it's obviously postal service, and it's obviously not the Post's fault. It's a question of leadership and management. Will he meet with me following his meeting with Ofcom to see the evidence for himself, and what can he say to reassure my constituents now.

13:33

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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And reassure his constituents >> And reassure his constituents that we are expressing the frustration and the anger that he frustration and the anger that he has expressed to me directly to Royal Mail and Ofcom. And of course, I will happily discuss developments with them.

13:33

Sureena Brackenridge MP (Wolverhampton North East, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I agree with my residents. Willenhall that.

13:34

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Royal Mail's. good enough. But we stand with our frontline postal workers who are working incredibly hard and bearing the brunt. So I call the Minister the brunt. So I call the Minister to challenge Royal Mail's leadership and have a look at the two tier employment model and wider two tier employment model and wider issues that are affecting recruitment and retention of our staff.

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Hard constituents absolutely deserve better and post those deserve better and post those deserve dignity at work, given the essential job that they do for our society and our economy. That is society and our economy. That is exactly why we are convening those meetings between management and unions to make sure that those

13:34

Dave Robertson MP (Lichfield, Labour)

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unions to make sure that those those talks progress. >> Final question. Dave Robertson. Yeah. >> My speaker. >> Notes talk about excuses from

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Notes talk about excuses from Royal Mail and now I'm here. I don't think that's actually the language I want to use, because people across Lichfield Burntwood in the villages are sick of being lied to by Royal Mail. I met Royal Mail just before Christmas to complain to them about the total lack of postal service that we had in Lichfield. We were probably the worst area in the country at that point. I was told when I had that meeting that all of the first class mail went out last week.

That is a lie. It is an absolute lie because my constituents told me. Now, Royal Mail clearly don't have a handle on this. They are either not measuring their performance or they are covering up their performance. So I would ask the Minister to use that golden share that we have to force Royal Mail to be honest, fess up and fix it.

13:35

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, the the passion and the anger that he's shown just now, he's shown in private to me as well he's shown in private to me as well in raising these issues. And again, I think it speaks about how frustrating it is as members of Parliament in any issue to raise a problem and then be told that it does not exist when your constituents are telling you that and Royal Mail have a responsibility absolutely to to address that and a direct and straightforward manner, because if we are not recognising the problem,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

we will not deal with it. Can I just say, I think it's an excellent debate, and thank you for excellent debate, and thank you for the way that it's been delivered on behalf of all our constituents. Royal management has got a problem and they certainly have been highlighted today. So thank you everybody. We'll let the frontbench everybody. We'll let the frontbench change over. Right. We now come to the next statement. Home Secretary.

13:36

Ministerial statement: Protest Policing

Thank you. With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I will make a statement on public order. The Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, sir Mark Rowley, has requested a prohibition on processions relating to Al Quds Day under section 13 of the Public Order Act. Madam Deputy Speaker, I have consented to that request placing a ban on these processions for both protesters and counter-protesters. That will now last for a month. This is the first ban since 2012, and so I wish to explain why I have done so to the House today.

It is important that we start with the context initiated by Iran's then leader, Ayatollah Khomeini, in 1979. Al Quds Day is an event held on the last Friday of Ramadan. The day is marked worldwide by rallies and demonstrations in support of Palestine, including here in Britain. Plans for a procession this Sunday in London have been led by the Islamic Human Rights Commission, an organisation that has been closely associated with the Iranian regime. Of course, this year's event interacts with the ongoing conflict in the Middle East.

It comes at a time when the Iranian regime is attacking British forces and bases, as well as those of our allies. It also comes just days after the arrest of four individuals as part of an investigation led by counter-terror police. They were arrested under the National Security Act for allegedly spying on Jewish communities on behalf of the Iranian regime. This context creates clear challenges for the police. Heightened attention and therefore larger expected attendance, heightened tensions between protesters and counter-protesters, and therefore greater potential for conflict.

The expertise regarding if and how this can be safely managed rightly sits with the police, and the legal test is clear. Any request to prohibit a procession must only be lodged with the aim of preventing serious public disorder that could not otherwise be prevented by imposing other conditions on a public procession. Under section 12 of the Public Order Act, section 12, conditions typically include specifying the route, location, and times of a protest. Under normal circumstances, they are sufficient to ensure protests remain peaceful and the public are kept safe.

However, the Commissioner has clearly stated that the Metropolitan Police's view is that serious public disorder cannot be avoided unless a prohibition under section 13 is introduced. This assessment is grounded in the tensions created by international conflict, the scale of the expected march, and the presence of protesters and multiple counter protesting groups, all seeking to march at once. My first duty is to keep the public safe. Having carefully and thoroughly considered the risk, the risk assessment presented to me by the Metropolitan Police, I am satisfied that an order under section 13 is necessary for one month.

There will therefore be a prohibition on processions in London related to Al Quds Day by protesters and counter-protesters, which will come into effect today and will end on the 11th of April. Should the Commissioner consider a further extension is required, he will be able to make a further submission at that time. I must be clear about what this prohibition does not do. The police and Home Secretary only have the power to prohibit a public procession. Section 13 cannot be used to ban a static protest referred to in the legislation as a public assembly.

Should a static demonstration proceed this weekend, the police will not be able to stop it. Instead, they will be able to impose conditions such as dictating the precise location and timing. People will therefore be able to exercise their right to peaceful protest, though the full force of the law will be enforced if hate crimes or other crimes are committed. Today's announcement is confined to specific circumstances, but I know this will excite scrutiny around the wider issue of policing protests.

The House will be aware that I have appointed Lord MacDonald of River Glaven to carry out an independent review of public order and hate crime legislation. His review is ongoing and I will update this House on its findings at the soonest possible moment. I would, however, like to make a wider point about the right to protest in this country. What I've announced today is narrowly focussed on specific circumstances in a unique moment, but it does not alter an enduring fact in this country.

We rightly pride ourselves on our freedoms, including the right to peaceful protest. It is a precious right and one that I Revere, and it sets us apart from autocracies of all kinds across the world. This prohibition is therefore limited and specific. It bans marches, but not static demonstrations in relation to Al Quds Day. Equally, I must add, there is no prohibition on protesting against the plight of Palestinians and there never will be. Hundreds of protesters protests have already taken place across the country this year in solidarity with Palestinians, and the met alone have policed 32 peaceful and lawful protest, whether for Palestine or for Israel or for any other cause, must be cherished and protected, and this government will always defend that sacred freedom.

At the same time, as Home Secretary, I have a solemn duty, and it is my duty to keep the British people safe. I have been presented with the assessment of the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, that he cannot guarantee the security of our capital and prevent serious public disorder without a prohibition on processions relating to Al Quds Day. Having reviewed his assessment, it is clear to me that my duty to the public and their safety dictates that I must accept his request.

It is right that we prohibit these processions while continuing to uphold our ancient commitments to the freedoms that we are rightly proud of. And that is the balance Madam Deputy Speaker that I have sought to strike today. And I commend this statement to the House. I call the.

13:43

Rt Hon Chris Philp MP (Croydon South, Conservative)

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Shadow Home Secretary, Chris Philp. Philp. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Madam Speaker, I fully support Madam Speaker, I fully support banning this march. The police assessment of the risk is right. And in fact, I wrote to the commissioner a week ago urging exactly this ban. But the problems with the Al Quds march go beyond simply the risk of serious disorder. In 2010, ten people were arrested for assaulting an emergency worker, inciting racial hatred and public order offences.

Chance at Al Quds marches in the past have called for intifada and revolution. Calling for intifada and revolution are calls for violence, and calls for violence have no place on our streets. A leading speaker at these marches has been Nazeem Ali, a man who has demanded that Israel be wiped off the map. Speaking at a previous March, Ali even blamed what he called Zionists for the Grenfell fire. He also said, and I quote, we are fed up of Zionists, their rabbis and their synagogues.

This reference to rabbis and synagogues shows that when this despicable man says Zionist, he means Jews. This is clear antisemitism. So speech inciting violence and speech inciting anti-Semitism, which we have heard at these marches in the past, has serious consequences. Anti-Semitism is now rampant. Jews are ten times more likely to be victims of hate crimes than Muslims. We saw an Islamist motivated murder at a synagogue in Manchester just a few months ago. In the past 25 years, 94% of all terror murders in the UK have been committed by Islamist terrorists, who also make up 75% of counter-terrorism caseloads.

So does the Home Secretary share my concern that the present caseload is only 10% Islamist in nature? And if she does share my concern, what does she propose to do about that? The organiser of the Al Quds march is the so-called Islamic Human Rights Commission, which, as the Home Secretary quite rightly acknowledged, is in essence a front organisation for the Iranian regime. Now former Iranian Deputy Minister of Culture, Ali Akbar Ramezanpour, has said that there is a network of Islamic charities in the UK which are, in his words, not autonomous but are in fact funded and controlled by the regime in Tehran.

Does the Home Secretary share my concern about that, and what does she propose to do about it? Of course, in opposition, the Labour Party also, I think, rightly pledged to proscribe the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps. Will she update the House on the implementation of that pledge? I am also deeply concerned about many events that have been recently held, particularly at universities, lamenting the demise of Ayatollah Khomeini, a man who in the last few weeks was directly responsible for the murder of 30,000 of his own people.

A man who supported and sponsored terrorism around the world, including backing Hamas and the atrocities on October the 7th, and who backed various regional wars. Well, the Home Secretary join me in condemning those who mourned his demise and celebrated his evil acts. More broadly, Madam Deputy Speaker, and finally, the Al Quds marches are a troubling symptom of a growing division in our society, where some people define themselves primarily by their religion or their ethnic heritage. And we've seen that spilling over into the conduct of elections.

This is deeply troubling and deeply divisive. It undermines the very foundations of our nation, which depend on a shared identity and shared values. I'd be interested in the Home Secretary's views on that, and I hope the House returns to that topic. Let me finish with a broader point. Extremism has no place in the UK. Support for terrorism or violence has no place in the UK. Religious and racial hatred, including anti-Semitism, have no place here. So when someone who is not a British citizen expresses extremist, violent, pro terror or racist views, in my view they should have their visa revoked and be expelled as set out in section three of the Immigration Act 1971, the Home Office's own guidance makes clear, and I quote, that support for extremism or other unacceptable behaviour meets that statutory test.

So will the Home Secretary use those powers to expel extremists who are not British citizens?

13:47

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Home Secretary. I thank the Shadow Home Secretary for his comments and his questions. Let me just say to him, firstly, he began his remarks by talking about some of the unacceptable acts of violence and incitement to violence that have taken place at various marches, not just relating to Al Quds Day, but, you know, it is not unusual for multiple arrests to be made. All the different types of protest marches that take place. I hope he will join me in supporting the police, as they ensure that the full force of the law is applied at all times, in all circumstances.

And of course, I have recognised that there are some complexities in the legal framework and an inconsistency of application, and that is why I've asked Lord Ken MacDonald to do his review, so that we do have much more consistency of practice across the UK, and clarity for the police about what they can and cannot do when it comes to some of the things that are said when protests take place. And I hope that we can continue to work together across this House on those on those matters.

He asks a specific question in relation to prevent. Let me tell him that of course, I keep under review the way in which the prevent programme is functioning. There have been a number of recommendations made multiple recommendations over many years, with many reports into the functioning of prevent, and it is important that prevent referrals are made in line with the statutory requirements and with the guidance, and that they are picking up those that we want to take away from a mindset and an ideology that could ultimately result in harm.

So, you know, I don't think it's appropriate for us to set percentage requirements of what should happen in terms of referrals, but it is absolutely important that the right referrals are being made. And we always work with partners who deliver the prevent programme and with local authorities and others in making sure that that is done properly. Let me say to him on the Islamic Human Rights Commission that the trust that is responsible for that charity is currently subject to a statutory inquiry by the Charity Commission.

So I think it's important that that work is allowed to continue. And of course, once they have reached a determination, I'm sure that that will be something that will be discussed in the House in the in the future. On the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps, he will know we have said this before. We've had this discussion many times at this Dispatch Box and in fact, the answers aren't all that different from when these positions were reversed between our parties. We do not comment on matters relating to proscription, but this government has accepted the recommendations made by Jonathan Hall KC, and we will be taking forward that work at the earliest available opportunity.

Look in relation to those who are mourning publicly the death of Khamenei, the deceased leader, Supreme leader of Iran. This is where free speech really butts up against. You know, what conduct most of us would consider appropriate. Let me say to him, I do not, of course, mourn the passing of Ayatollah Khomeini. It is for others to decide what they do and do not support. What I'm absolutely clear on is whatever methods people use to express their political views, they must do so in line with the law of this land, and that that law should be always enforced without fear or favour.

And I will always support the police in making sure that that is the case. And then separately, he also asks about how we work as a society, I think is questions are about what the responsibilities are of citizens in this country. I don't think it's for a government to dictate to its citizens what political views they're allowed to hold, or how they should express themselves or their identity, whether that is religious or ethnic or something else in nature. It is the job of government to make sure that we have a set of rules and a set of values that are equally applied our respect for democracy, our respect for the rule of law, and all of the norms by which our society operates.

That does mean that we do accept free speech and people's ability to have views that might be offensive, that many of us might disagree with, but they are still allowed to express those views. And I wouldn't want to see anything that happens in in relation to these very troubling events to then, you know, clamp down on those freedoms that we hold so precious. It is always a judgement, and it's always a balance that has to be struck. And it's important that the government always tries to strike that balance in the right way.

And then on this final point, this government has already taken action, and I will always use my full powers under the law to make sure that those who would cause harm in our country with their extremist views are not allowed to enter our country, and I won't hesitate to use my powers under any of the immigration acts to exclude people from this country who have no right to be here afterwards.

13:52

Mark Sewards MP (Leeds South West and Morley, Labour)

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Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, I welcome the Secretary of State's decision to Secretary of State's decision to ban this weekend's Al Quds March. Al Quds was founded by the Ayatollah 40 years ago. It has repeatedly featured support for the Iranian regime, terrorist groups and often promotes dangerous anti-Semitism to given the growing threat to Jewish communities across the UK. Will the Home Secretary now move to prescribe the IRGC? Consider sanctions on regime regime linked assets, and outline what further steps have been taken to protect the Jewish community?

13:53

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Home Secretary. sanctioned in their entirety already. And as I say, we don't comment on matters relating to proscription, but we have accepted the recommendations made by Jonathan Casey, and the government will take those forward at the earliest available opportunity.

13:53

Max Wilkinson MP (Cheltenham, Liberal Democrat)

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Democrat spokesperson Max Wilkinson. Secretary, is aware that we have concerns about her authoritarian tendencies. We have particular concerns about this government's enthusiasm for restricting the right to protest and its use of terrorism legislation, wait for it to proscribe protest groups. Liberal Democrats place a much stronger weight on the right to peaceful protest than the Home Secretary does. That is her right. It is a fundamental freedom, and any decision to ban a march must only be made in exceptional circumstances.

However, on this occasion it is right to take a cautious approach. The Islamic Human Rights Commission has very concerning views on Iran. The organisers have expressed support for the late Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, and have claimed that he stood on the right side of history. Clearly, these values are at odds with the British public, who would rightly condemn the ayatollahs oppression of the Iranian people and sponsorship of terrorism across the world. At a time when Iran is putting the safety of British citizens in the Middle East at risk with its indiscriminate attacks, it would be inappropriate for this march to go ahead.

Nevertheless, a decision to ban this march highlights a deeper failure by the government to tackle the underlying threats that fuel such tensions. Labour has dithered and delayed over the prescription of Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, the organisation responsible for much of the violence and terror emanating from Iran and for attacks abroad. It is utterly ridiculous that the Home Secretary has already sunk almost £1 million of taxpayers money in fighting in court to keep Palestine action proscribed, whilst dragging heels on the IRGC prescription. Even when the independent Review of Terrorism legislation has urged immediate prescription, so will the Minister.

Will the Home Secretary today commit to confronting the threat of the Iranian regime by immediately prescribing IRGC? And if not, will she give the House a date for legislation?

13:55

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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To say the opening remarks were rather disappointing? All. Let me let me just remind him of what I have actually said and done in relation to the right to protest. One is allowing the cumulative impact on communities that are affected by protests to be one of the reasons why police place additional conditionality on both a procession as well as a public assembly under section 12 and 1314 of the Public Order Act. I'm very disappointed that the that the Lib Dem spokesperson thinks that's an authoritarian tendency when actually what we're doing is responding to repeat protests, creating real tension in our communities, and we are creating the conditions in which those protests can continue to go ahead, but with additional conditions as to their location and their time, and making sure that that framework is very clear for for the police, that is actually an argument for allowing those protests to happen, but not in a way that also creates real fear amongst minority communities in this country.

I'm very disappointed to see that the Lib Dems have set their face against that, and would characterise that as authoritarianism. They are wholly wrong. These are the necessary steps to protect our vital freedoms and also our minority communities as well. The law in this area always requires a balance, and this government is seeking to strike that balance in exactly the right way. And the only other remarks I made in relation to protests were immediately after the terrorist attack at Heaton Park Synagogue in Manchester, when I suggested that marching the very next day in support of the Palestinian cause is perhaps not something that is British, because we should also show some compassion to those who are suffering.

Those are the only two acts, and he set his face against both of them in the opening remarks that he made. Let me just I've already addressed the point in relation to the IRGC. They are, of course, sanctioned in their entirety. We will take forward the recommendations made by Jonathan Casey. He knows that requires a legislative change. We must act at speed, but also with care, and this government will will do so. I think it's important that we don't conflate different issues.

They are all you know, lots of these issues are causing tensions across the country. But the situation in relation to Palestine Action Group is different to the matters that we are discussing today. And I would suggest that, you know, members of other parties should not seek to conflate those to score, score political points. I'll leave my remarks there. Thank you, Madam Rachel Blake.

13:57

Rachel Blake MP (Cities of London and Westminster, Labour )

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Thank you, Madam.

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area. Affected by this intervention, and I welcome the Home Secretary's and I welcome the Home Secretary's intervention on public order policing today. I listen really carefully to the statement. She made clear that this prohibition is specific and discrete and and focussed. And what I heard was a focussed. And what I heard was a real balancing of the challenges that she faces every day and that public order policing in London public order policing in London face every single day. The centre of London is home to dozens of synagogues and mosques and prayer rooms, and it's really important that I take that responsibility seriously of making sure that everybody is safe.

I've been in regular contact with my constituents over the last week on this very topic. Will the Home Secretary work with me to articulate really clearly the rules and legislation in place to address these very challenging issues that we're all facing?

13:58

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Great. remarks and her question, and also for the work that she has done on this issue, which I know has affected the people that she represents. Important to note, as she she rightly does, that this this is a very specific and discrete request from the Met Police, who, of course, have huge experience in dealing with multiple protests on multiple occasions and who have good policing experience. I take seriously the fact that this is the first time in many, many years that they have sought such an order and they have done so given the unique circumstances posed by the planned marches in a few days time, and in particular the threat of both protests and multiple counter protests all moving through London at the same time, that does represent a very unique policing challenge.

But I do pay tribute to the Met Police for the work that they have been doing to ensure that our freedoms in this country are are protected. She will know that we've already commissioned Lord MacDonald to look at the legislation in this area, and to make recommendations for clarifying the legal framework, and I look forward to working with her on on all of that work once his review is in Greg Smith.

13:59

Greg Smith MP (Mid Buckinghamshire, Conservative)

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Thank you, Madam. but as my right hon. Friend the Shadow Home Secretary made clear, this speaks to a much wider problem. So can the Home Secretary say what steps she's taking to ensure the United Kingdom cannot be used as a safe haven for the wealth, influence, networks or political activity of senior figures connected to the Iranian regime. With specific regard to recent reports that the new so-called supreme leader of that Iranian regime is linked to a network of high value London properties acquired through associates or shell companies, and what steps she will take to close down any loopholes or strengthen those sanctions.

14:00

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Home Secretary.

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Thank the hon. Member for his question. We are obviously looking very carefully at the allegations that have been made, and we would that have been made, and we would expect, of course, that the police and our security services respond appropriately. We will always work appropriately. We will always work closely with them to ensure that we do so. Look, he raises a broader point, I think, in relation to the state threat that has been represented by Iran, which I know has been discussed in this House on many occasions before, and he will know of the public comments made by Sir Ken McCallum, the director general of MI5, and others.

Let me just assure him this government takes all levels of state threat very seriously, work very closely with our security agencies to make sure that we're always taking the safe.

14:01

David Pinto-Duschinsky MP (Hendon, Labour)

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We. >> Speaker. >> The Al Quds march glorifying. >> A despicable, blood soaked regime has long been a cause of great concern for my constituents in Hendon. That's why I wrote to the Commissioner of the met asking for the march to be banned. And that's why I want to thank the Home Secretary for her resolute action today. But the threat posed by the Iranian regime to our Jewish community has not ended. Following the arrest of four men allegedly spying on our Jewish community on on behalf of the Iranian regime.

What steps are being taken to keep our Jewish community safe here?

14:01

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Home Secretary I thank my hon. Friend and he will know there's a Friend and he will know there's a live police investigation that is taking place, so I cannot comment or give any additional details to this House. And until the criminal justice process is is complete. But let me assure him, we work very closely with our colleagues in counter-terror policing and in our security services to monitor the threats that are posed to individuals and organisations in our country, and take all appropriate measures to keep our people safe.

14:01

Simon Hoare MP (North Dorset, Conservative)

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Simon Hoare Mr Speaker, the Home. along with colleagues on this side of the House, signed at least two letters to the Prime Minister in recent months calling for the recognition of the State of Palestine. But I also support the decision that the Home Secretary has taken today. She has demonstrated, I think, the seriousness of purpose that she's taken on a very important decision, but one which clearly commands, I think, huge national support. One can be in favour of the decision that she has taken, and also in favour of the rights of the Palestinian people.

The two are not alien of each other. She mentioned the static protest that could take place in lieu of a march. Is she able to tell the house? Does she or the Metropolitan Commissioner have the power to time limit that specific event in order to ensure that ordinary people going about their business are not disrupted, and that huge blockages do not take place in the capital in lieu of a moving march.

14:03

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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I thank the hon. Member for for the points that he has made. He's absolutely right. Let me just agree with him for the first part of his remarks on the rights of people in this country to support the Palestinian people, their right to self-determination and their desire for an end to conflict and recognition of their own state. There is nothing, no decision that this government has taken that prevents anyone from being able to express those political views and to take part in peaceful protest, to draw attention to that cause.

And that can all still absolutely continue. He's right on the static protest. So there are powers under the Public Order Act for the police to place conditions on static protests. They can they can relate to both time location as well as other other measures. Those will be operational decisions for the Met Police to make in the coming days.

14:03

Luke Taylor MP (Sutton and Cheam, Liberal Democrat)

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Luke Taylor. the Home Secretary for this action? It's it's proportionate and she seems to be taking lessons from the Liberal Democrats on that. Can I reiterate, can I reiterate the calls from the Liberal Democrats to proscribe Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps and encourage it to come forward with timetable for that legislation to be delivered? But can I also ask what steps have been taken to ensure effective policing of the static protests that will go ahead on Sunday to protect Londoners and our police from potential clashes?

14:04

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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A tree. decline the invitation to learn any lessons from the Liberal Democrats, not just on this occasion, but forevermore. Look, let me let me reiterate the point in relation to the IRGC. We will bring forward measures as soon as we can. We obviously have to proceed with care because these are complex matters, and we have to get the balance right in terms of the action that we take. But we have accepted the recommendations that have been made by Jonathan Casey, and the government is working at pace to make sure we move forward with delivery.

And in terms of the conditions that might be placed upon a static protest that may or may not take place. Those are operational matters for the Met Police. But, you know, I and the whole House should have every confidence in our police, not just in London but across the country, because police forces have been dealing with a huge increase in the number of protests, the variety of protests, the multiplicity of counter protests that take place. And I think it is, you know, we should pay tribute to the work of our hard working police officers day in, day out, who manage to keep our country safe whilst allowing respect for our fundamental freedoms as well.

14:05

Rt Hon Sir Edward Leigh MP (Gainsborough, Conservative)

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Father of the House.

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The Home Secretary said today, especially as she's one of the best conservative Home secretaries we've ever had.

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Yeah.

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But will she forgive me in asking you to stress this one part of her statement, I've noticed there's an increasing tendency to there's an increasing tendency to say that we should ban marches because we find the views of the because we find the views of the marchers thoroughly offensive. Frankly, most of the marches in London I find fairly offensive because most of them are left wing. But I would defend. But I would defend to the death the right of them to march.

So can she emphasise this is a very high bar and you will only be banned if you incite violence.

14:06

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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OK. >> Three well, again, sorry to disappoint the hon. Gentleman, the Father of the House, but I am labour all day long, and I and I do labour all day long, and I and I do enjoy swatting conservatives, Lib Dems and Greens and everybody else at my leisure. And I will continue to do so. He is right on the law. It is a high bar for any banning order to either be requested or granted under the framework set out in the Public Order Act.

It should be a high bar. He's absolutely right. People are allowed to have their own views, and we should not be seeking to shut down views that, whilst they might be offensive or provocative, are still within the law. And it is important that we always ensure that it's the law that is being followed and any attempts to interfere with freedom of either expression or assembly should always meet a high bar. I'm very satisfied that in the specific and unique circumstances set out for the public procession that had been planned, that test has been met.

But of course the other protests can and should go ahead and the full force of the law will and the full force of the law will always be applied.

14:07

Rt Hon Jeremy Corbyn MP (Islington North, Independent)

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Jeremy Corbyn. Secretary give to the compliance with sections ten and 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights, on the right to protest? And what discussions did the Metropolitan Police have with the organisers of this planned march to ensure that it could go ahead safely and would be properly stewarded and properly run? Because, in my experience, the police are very accommodating and keen to have very long discussions with March organisers in order to make sure that the right to protest is maintained in our society.

Because there is a slippery slope here, you ban a march that is not necessarily a very popular march, and that then leads on to draconian banning orders on all kinds of protests within our society.

14:08

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Yes. Firstly, let me say to him on the European Convention on Human Rights, these are his right on articles 910 and 1111. Those are the relevant articles to the matters that we are discussing today. But they are qualified rights, and there have always been qualified rather than absolute rights, which means that the state can limit those rights in specific circumstances as long as legal tests of proportionality and so on are maintained. And I'm confident that the legal arrangements that we have in this country, that the terms set out in the Public Order Act are obviously fully in compliance with our convention obligations, and that there is a very high bar for the powers that exist under section 13 of the Public Order Act.

I am satisfied on this occasion that that high bar has been met. And let me say to him, look, the Met Police have been policing this procession for many years. It is an annual event and they policed it even when there has been huge opposition to it going forward. They faced a lot of pressure over many years in order to seek a ban and they have never done so. And I'm very, very confident that as they have assessed the risk posed by this particular procession in the current context that we are in, and particularly given the range and the number of counter protesting marches that are planned for the same day, that that does present a unique challenge for policing to be able to manage five different marches at the same time, in the same bit of London.

I think that they've made a very fair point. They made a strong case and I have agreed with it on this occasion.

14:09

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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Doctor Andrew Murrison.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I very much welcome the statement and I do commend the Home Secretary's judgement on this Secretary's judgement on this occasion. Now, plainly, the Islamic Human Rights Commission will seek to exploit the loophole that's to exploit the loophole that's offered up under section 13, and that will be around the ability to that will be around the ability to protest in a static way. Has a location yet been identified for location yet been identified for where that static protest will be likely to be? And would she agree with me that it should be away from where it's going to discommode the general public and in a place that is not going to place undue burdens on our policing resources, which are finite?

14:10

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Ruth Cadbury well, let me say to the hon. Gentleman, any conditions that may or may not be placed on a static protest will be matters for the police. Those are operational matters. They have the powers available to them. I'm sure they will make use of those powers and the way that they have been doing with protests that have been taking place across the capital for some, some time now. And they would, of course, take into account many of the factors that he has raised in his question to me.

Let me just caution a little on the description of the difference between a static process and a moving procession. A public assembly is it's not a loophole that the law deliberately treats the two things differently, because the policing challenges of a static protest are different in nature from the policing challenge of policing a march which is moving from one location to another, and the Public Order Act just recognises the difference between those two things. But the police do have the powers to condition the way that a static protest takes place.

They've made use of those conditions very well, in my opinion to date, and I'm sure they will continue to do so. continue to do so.

14:11

Mr Paul Kohler MP (Wimbledon, Liberal Democrat)

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Paul Kohler Madam Deputy Speaker. instincts. this march. Given Iran's targeting of UK nationals abroad and our allies overseas, but that targeting also occurs here in the UK, as has occurred in my constituency of Wimbledon, with the stabbing of an Iranian dissident journalist two years ago to kind of Home Secretary tell the House what specific steps she's taking to protect Iranian dissidents here in the UK who might be targeted by the Iranian state.

14:12

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Home Secretary. he agrees with my instincts on this one. Perhaps I'm not so authoritarian after all. Let me say to him, he raised a more serious point. He raised a more serious point on dissidents. And we know the threat posed by dissidents from the Iranian Iranian regime here on UK soil, and is rightly noted, an earlier and earlier case. Let me assure him we work very closely with counter-terror policing and with our security services are monitoring the threats posed to all individuals in the UK by foreign states, and we're always ready to take any appropriate action.

And indeed the police and the security services take action every day.

14:12

Rt Hon Sir Gavin Williamson MP (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge, Conservative)

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So Gavin Williamson.

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decision. Iran has. A track record. Of hostile activity. In the United Kingdom.

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In the United Kingdom. We have so many Iranians who have had to flee their home country have had to flee their home country for safety here in the United Kingdom. Yet you still see the Kingdom. Yet you still see the situation of charities effectively operating as proxies through of the operating as proxies through of the terrible regime in Tehran. And I just wonder what action further action the Home Secretary is going to take to clamp down on these organisations that masquerade as charities.

14:13

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Home Secretary well, on the specific point of charities, of course, the Charity Commission has powers to launch its own inquiries and then enforce compliance. And they, of course, have a full suite of powers to take action if they think someone has fallen outside of our rules. There is an ongoing Charity Commission investigation into the overall body relating to the I c the trust rather than the the organisation that we are discussing here today. I'm sure the Charity Commission, once they've completed that work, will make take appropriate action.

And I know that will be the subject of further discussion in this House. Let me assure him we do recognise the desire by some to use our charities legislation and to find gaps in order to pursue other ends that are not charitable and not what the law was intended to do. And we won't hesitate to take further action in this area if we need to.

14:14

Shockat Adam MP (Leicester South, Independent)

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Shockat Adam. explain a contradiction that I see that she has taken the ban to a peaceful march that has been happening for over four decades, 40 years, citing serious public disorder? Whilst the government continues to permit the far right to protest outside hotels housing asylum seekers who call for serious public disorder outside those hotels, and if the Tommy Robinson march, Tommy Robinson was also the Home Secretary, might like to know a big fan of hers. The United Kingdom march in in September 2025.

We have violence in particular against Muslims was cited. Will that be banned as well?

14:15

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Home Secretary well, let me say >> Home Secretary well, let me say to the hon. Gentleman that each each case has to be dealt with on its own facts. The United Kingdom its own facts. The United Kingdom was a very large march. The police did not seek this power because they assessed that, based on their own risk assessment, that it was possible for that march to take place safely and that they could police it safely, as well as the counter march that took place, which was smaller in nature.

If they had made such a request, I would have obviously had to request consider that request based on the full facts disclosed to me in the risk assessment. So he should not conflate multiple different things. There is a very specific risk that is being posed by the march on this occasion, given the international context, and also given that they will actually be five marches. There is the main march by those behind the Al Quds Day rally. And then there are the four Counter-protesting marches as well.

And he must recognise that there is a unique challenge that is posed by five marches taking place at the same time in this international context, that is different to every other kind of protest in March that has taken place. And and I would hope that he does not conflate the two, because I think that that could cause a loss of confidence across our communities. Marches take place every day on a whole range of issues, international and domestic in nature. The police almost never ask for those to be banned.

In fact, I've never had such a request made to me, and I think the last time such this power was used was was something like 2010 or 2012. So it's been many, many years. It is a unique situation given the current context and the unique policing challenge of five different marches at the same time, and I would hope that he focuses a little more on the facts rather than the hyperbole that he began his question with initially.

14:16

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Final question Jim Shannon. And I stand and we stand for an Iran free of the Ayatollah, free of the IRGC, free of a despotic regime that carries terrorism all over the world, free from the the regime that killed 35,000 of their local, their own citizens in January of this year. So with that in mind, can I thank the the home, the Home Secretary, very much for her decision to ban the Al Quds? March? And it's very important that we take a stand in this House to show that we're supporting those in Iran who are fighting for freedom, in light of repeated concerns for law enforcement and community organisations about the risk of public disorder and clashes with protesters, what further steps will the Home Secretary take to prevent groups promoting extremist ideologies from organising events that incite intimidation or violence against minorities or other vulnerable groups in the United Kingdom? Thank you very much.

14:17

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Home Secretary. >> Home Secretary. >> Well, look, what I would say to the hon. Gentleman is we do have strong laws in this country already strong laws in this country already on inciting violence and, and, and other measures as well. And I would expect the police to always bring the full force of the law upon anybody found to be contravening our laws without fear or favour. And it is important that we do respect and rely on our legal framework, because we do have one of the strongest legal frameworks in the world on all of these matters.

The government will always take further action if it's necessary, but I do believe our current framework allows us to strike the right balance between protecting individual freedoms, even if they're offensive, even if they're provocative, they should still be protected. But as long as they do so within the confines of

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the law. That is the end of the statement on protest policing. I'll give the on protest policing. I'll give the frontbenchers a moment or two to frontbenchers a moment or two to shuffle over. Alex Sobel. I'm sorry.

14:18

Deputy Speaker's Statement Ms Nusrat Ghani MP (Sussex Weald, Conservative)

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I'll try not to. The information has not been shared in due time. The requirement to provide a copy of a statement to the opposition before it is made. It is set out in the ministerial Code, chapter nine. If the Minister wants to refresh himself, I am not responsible for the policing of the ministerial code, but is clearly a discourtesy to the House, not to make information available in good time. The Treasury frontbench are no doubt the Ministers responsible will have heard and will ensure this does not happen again.

I call the Chief Secretary, Prime Minister for the statement, please. for the statement, please.

14:19

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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14:30

Alex Burghart MP (Brentwood and Ongar, Conservative)

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I call the Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. >> Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and thank you for Deputy Speaker, and thank you for your remarks at the outset of this statement. I do thank the Minister for advance sight of the statement that I received at 130. But I will note that this whole business is really about transparency and the fact that the fact is that the government has had to be dragged to do this by members of this House, by members on both sides of this House.

And so to produce a 135 page document and put it online 23 minutes before this debate is really not acceptable at all. I do respect the Chief Secretary coming and doing this himself, but it really ought to be the Prime Minister sitting there, because all of this is about the Prime Minister's judgement. And so it's very convenient that this document was published after Prime Minister's Questions today, when the man who made the decision, the man whose judgement is in question, could have been put under scrutiny by hon.

Members. There are very many questions that arise from the documents published right now. I will put a few on on record, and then I will return to the central theme, the. There is the issue of severance pay, which the Chief Secretary, the Prime Minister, referred to. Why did Ministers agree to any severance pay given what had happened? I think a lot of our constituents will be disgusted that Peter Mandelson received £70,000. Will Peter Mandelson's full declaration of interests that he is supposed to have handed over when he was appointed, be published? I don't believe that they are included in the tranche today.

Is this because of a police request or is it for some other reason? Will the Chief Secretary publish a register of withheld and delayed documents so that the House can be aware of what is being held back? And will he give us a little more information either now or in the future on redactions? It is important that this House understands who is deciding on what will be redacted. This awful saga involving Jeffrey Epstein continues. I understand that as this house meets one of his ranches in New Mexico is being investigated because there are reports that bodies are buried there.

At the centre of this scandal was a very rich and powerful man who despicably abused his position, and he was helped to become rich and powerful by his associates. One of those associates was Peter Mandelson. So while, of course I associate myself with the remarks made by the Chief secretary about Epstein's victims, it's very clear that those victims were not in the Prime Minister's mind when he appointed Peter Mandelson. The Prime Minister has already admitted that he knew Mandelson had maintained his friendship with Epstein even after the latter's conviction for his for his terrible crimes.

That was a bad choice, and it's a choice that we can now read about in black and white. Madam Deputy Speaker, on page 11, where the Prime Minister was told after Epstein was first convicted of procuring an underage girl in 2008, their relationship continued across 2009 to 2011, beginning when Lord Mandelson was business Minister and continuing after the end of the Labour government. Mandelson reportedly stayed in Epstein's house while he was in jail in 2009. Now the Prime Minister claims that he was lied to.

He wasn't lied to by this due diligence document there, and it may be that Mandelson denied these claims. And if so, maybe the Prime Minister was lied to, but he was lied to by an inveterate liar who had been fired twice before. And we're supposed to believe, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the Prime Minister, who was once the chief prosecutor in this country, couldn't see through this nonsense. It beggars belief. Over the coming hours and days, we'll see whether these documents reveal why the Prime Minister's judgement failed so badly.

But we must suspect that it was because his then chief of staff was Mandelson's protege, and Morgan McSweeney had set up Labour Together. The Prime Minister's private campaigning organisation, and Peter Mandelson had advised Morgan McSweeney on the establishment of that organisation. And that organisation had been responsible for breaking electoral law so that it could hide the sources of its funders from the public and from the Labour Party. And then Labour Together had sought to intimidate and smear journalists who revealed that wrongdoing, and it provided hundreds of Labour MPs and many of the top brass in the Cabinet with free money and free services.

This, Madam Deputy Speaker, was the ultimate job for the boys. The Prime Minister knew all he needed to know it was on him. It's on him now. He led his party down, he led his country down. And I very much doubt that either will trust him again.

14:35

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, the Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy asked me a number of questions, asked me a number of questions, which I will take in turn. The first was on severance payment. He asked me, Madam Deputy Speaker, why that payment had been made and who approved it? As I set out in my opening statement, Peter Mandelson was employed as a civil servant, not as a Minister, at that meant that on his summary dismissal by the Prime Minister, he had the right to take a claim to the employment tribunal.

As you can see in the documents, Peter Mandelson asked for a much larger sum with the implied threat that that would be taken through legal proceedings with associated legal costs. We, the government, wouldn't have wanted to pay £1 to Peter Mandelson. But in contrast to the cost to the taxpayer of employment Tribunal, legal fees and maybe a payment, that in the advice would have been higher than the amount that was given, the government reluctantly agreed to that award.

The Prime Minister has since said that Peter Mandelson should either return that money or donate it. On the question of on the question of who approved the severance payment, the House will see from the documents that the request from the Foreign Office was made to the Treasury. The payment was approved in line with Treasury business rules, albeit reluctantly, and with an express condition that a non-disclosure agreement was not allowed. In these circumstances, and for the sake of completeness, there is reference in the bundle to that business case requiring my approval, and I can confirm to the House I did not receive that request or indeed approve it.

The Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster asked me then about some of the documents, namely about redactions and a register of withheld documents on the question of a register of withheld documents. With permission. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would need to take that away to take advice from lawyers and the Metropolitan Police to be able to say whether these documents are being held for their criminal investigation or not. I hope that the House is somewhat reassured by the mechanism we have been able to establish with the with the chair of the Select Committee who has cited these documents, albeit in a contained and controlled way.

Redactions in the documents that are made by government are only to protect the names and contact details for junior civil servants, as is due practice. Other redactions that relate to international security and international relations are done with the approval of the Intelligence and Select Committee. He lastly asked me about the report from the Cabinet Office to the Prime Minister. As I've said in my opening statement, the Prime Minister did ask subsequent questions of Peter Mandelson following that report being submitted by the Cabinet Office.

These questions were undertaken by his advisers in number ten. And whilst this is a document that we can't publish at this time, the Prime Minister is very clear that he regrets having believed the lies that Peter Mandelson put before him.

14:38

Rachael Maskell MP (York Central, Labour )

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Rachael Maskell Madam. Clearly Peter Mandelson's associations bring a real stench to the appointment processes. But I want to know about the business associations and the way that they are scrutinised within the process, because clearly we know that Peter Mandelson's, PR company, Global Counsel, had strong associations. A client, in fact, Palantir, who has won lucrative contracts from successive governments. I want to understand if the papers demonstrate those associations and the associations that Peter Mandelson then brought into government.

14:39

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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My hon. Friend will see from the documents being published today that those commercial interests were raised by the Cabinet Office and established processes were put in place where new members of the civil service have to remove those commercial interests before taking office. And there is some commentary in the bundle about the conversation with Peter Mandelson, and in advance of his appointment as ambassador to the United States, specifically about that question. Having said all of that, part of the review that we are now taking forward is another look at the business appointment rules to make sure that the processes that were applied in these circumstances are robust enough in the, in the in the situation in which we're discussing, and if we need to further strengthen them, we stand ready to do so.

14:39

Rt Hon Ed Davey MP (Kingston and Surbiton, Liberal Democrat)

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The leader of.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And can I thank the Chief Secretary for advance sight of his statement? for advance sight of his statement? This is a stain on our nation that we are even having to go through this. It's right that we keep Epstein's victims. Survivors and families are the front of our minds today. Madam Deputy Speaker marks the first day of Britain's own the first day of Britain's own Epstein files for a close friend of Epstein to have been made Britain's ambassador to the United States is a shameful part of this affair.

That is the Prime Minister's responsibility. It is disappointing that he is not here now to answer for that and his catastrophic failure of judgement with respect to Mandelson, Peter Mandelson, his close relationship with Jeffrey Epstein and the fact that it continued long after Epstein's conviction for child sex trafficking, had been reported by both channel four dispatches in 2019 and the Financial Times in 2023. Has the Prime Minister told the Chief Secretary personally how those reports made him feel, and why he still felt it was right to appoint Mandelson anyway? Mandelson's 70,000 payout is an insult to Epstein's victims and if he had a shred of decency left, he would donate it to charity.

But the chief explanation as to why the government made that payout simply won't wash. Yes, Madam Speaker, with a very limited number of documents being released today, the way it goes on for the rest of Britain's Epstein files, that includes the documents related to Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor required by the Humble Address our party passed a fortnight ago. I very much hope the government will get them out as quickly as possible. It has taken five weeks from the Mandelson Humble Address to publication today.

So can the Chief Secretary guarantee that the first Andrew papers will be published within the same time frame by the 31st of March, at the latest?

14:41

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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Yes.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. As I've said to the House, the Prime Minister regrets having appointed Peter Mandelson as Ambassador to the United States. It was the wrong decision. He has was the wrong decision. He has apologised for it on the question of severance. As I say, the of severance. As I say, the government would not have wanted to give £1 to Peter Mandelson, but it was the quickest. It was the quickest way to remove Peter Mandelson as ambassador and a member of the civil service and as the leader of the Liberal Democrats says, and the government agrees with him.

The honourable thing to do would be to donate that money to an appropriate charity. On the question of the Humble Address, the one that was brought forward by the Liberal Democrats is being managed by the Department for Business and Trade. I know they're working on that now and will come forward with updates in due course. And as I said in my statement, the Cabinet Office will come back with a further tranche of documents in relation to this Humble Address as soon as possible.

14:42

Justin Madders MP (Ellesmere Port and Bromborough, Labour)

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Justin Madders.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. If one of my constituents came to see me and told me that they'd lost see me and told me that they'd lost their job or been sacked because they had lied during the application process and wanted compensation, I would tell them compensation, I would tell them that they had absolutely no chance of doing that. So I really struggle of doing that. So I really struggle to understand why we paid a penny. I understand what the Chief Secretary said about not wanting to do that, but really the risk of an employment tribunal claim in these circumstances is minuscule.

He's absolutely right that money should have been paid to a victim's charity. So will he now press Mandelson to do the right thing and give that money to the victims of abuse?

14:43

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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I thank my hon. Friend for his >> I thank my hon. Friend for his question. He in the House will see from the bundle of documents today that the government acted on the that the government acted on the basis of legal advice in awarding that settlement payment. But I agree with him wholeheartedly and repeat from the despatch box that the honourable thing for Peter Mandelson to do was to donate it to an appropriate charity.

14:43

Simon Hoare MP (North Dorset, Conservative)

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Mr. chair, Simon Hoare. acknowledge what the Chief Secretary has said with regards to my role as the chair of the committee. Looking at documents sort of pro tem on behalf of the House, and that will be done as he knows properly. Now, just following on the point that the hon. Gentleman has just raised the Chief Secretary is, of course, right, that under the Civil Service rules, Mandelson could have made a claim to a tribunal. He's right on that.

But the hon. Gentleman is also right. Anybody who has secured a position by deception would find themselves standing on the thinnest of thin ice, with no chance at all. And the approach that Mandelson has shown in the original claim that he made just underscores the shamelessness of the individual in question. So my direct question to the Chief Secretary is this on the point that because he's admitted that the Prime Minister was lied to, that is a deception, was legal advice sought as to the likely outcome of any employment tribunal case brought by Mandelson? If it was what that advice was and if it wasn't, why not?

14:45

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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The advice, Madam Deputy Speaker, is in the bundles that have been published today. The hon. Gentleman has to forgive me for not being able to precisely to the right page at this moment, but they are in the documents today, and whilst it is not for me to defend the claim that Peter Mandelson was making against the government, I would just say to the House that one of the issues would, of course, be the legal fees in actually defending that claim at the employment tribunal itself, a cost to the taxpayer, even if in the end the government would have been successful.

And it was those considerations that were put to the government in advice, which is why that settlement figure, which was a much lower figure than the legal fees and potential settlement being asked for, was the case.

14:45

Clive Lewis MP (Norwich South, Labour)

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Lewes. relevant. But this isn't just about technicalities, about lapses of judgement. This is about a wider, rotten political culture. A 30 year project where proximity to wealth and power isn't a means to an end. It is the end goal. That's what Peter Mandelson represented. And he wasn't just about him being the ambassador or selected to be ambassador. He was at the heart of the political project around number ten. That has to change. Does the government understand out there this isn't just about one bad set of decisions.

It's about a political culture that he represents and that is destroying party politics, mainstream party politics in this country. Do we get that? Do we understand that? Will we change?

14:46

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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My hon. Friend and I are members of the labour movement because we share the same values. We're here to represent the voices of working people and those that have no power and no access across this country. That is what our movement was created to do, and we share that ambition. But do I recognise that we are still operating in a system where power and wealth can lead to these types of outcomes? Absolutely. Do we have a shared ambition of tackling that? Yes we do.

14:47

Dr Kieran Mullan MP (Bexhill and Battle, Conservative)

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Gloucester Kieran Mullan. the moment the government is putting through a bill about the duty of accountability and candour. One of his ministerial colleagues sat just down from him, will confirm that requires Ministers to answer questions with candour. Three members of this House asked the Minister what the payoff was for Mandelson several weeks ago, and he refused to answer. So I'd ask him to reflect on whether he acted with candour and coming back to this question of whether he deserved a payout isn't actually the truth.

That the government knows this tissue, this story, this suggestion that they were lied to and there's no possible way they could have found out the truth would be torn apart in employment tribunal. And that's why he didn't.

14:47

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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Want it. Yeah. Good point. themselves.

14:47

Rachel Blake MP (Cities of London and Westminster, Labour )

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Rachel Blake. This statement has truly been sickening. Does the Chief Secretary agree with me that the sickening behaviour and conduct of Mandelson is in part a symptom of structural misogyny, and will he use his office to drive out structural misogyny from Whitehall and Westminster? Matthew Patrick. Westminster? Matthew Patrick.

14:48

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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My hon. Friend is right to raise the bigger issues that are in question around the process of appointment and disclosure and deceit, and the rules that are in place above and beyond all of that. Unfortunately, as a country and a world in which the voices of women who are subject to male violence and the abuse of power and privilege is still rampant. And all of us, I think, in any party, in any part of this House, would want to suggest that that is not the way in which we wish the world to operate, and we should all do what we can to change that.

That's why this government is committed to issues around halving violence against women and girls. It's why we talk about how we tackle structural misogyny, whether it's at the heart of our political system or in business or elsewhere. And I know that my hon. Friend and I share those ambitions and will do all that we can to make that a reality.

14:49

Rt Hon Stephen Flynn MP (Aberdeen South, Scottish National Party)

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Stephen Flynn. correctly, which I think I did, he said that his victims must be our first priority. Let us be clear for the Prime Minister, they were not, because on the 11th of the 12th, 2024, he received advice which says, and I state. Epstein was first convicted of procuring an underage girl in 2008. The following sentence, says Mandelson stayed in Epstein's house in June 2009. I repeat, the victims were not the prime Minister's first priority.

So that being the case, how can the Minister with a straight face stand at that despatch box and say we must learn this hard lesson and end a culture which dismisses women's experiences? When it was the Prime Minister who chose to ignore those experiences, ignore those facts, and appoint Peter Mandelson in the first place.

14:50

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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The hon. Member will have heard from my forgive me, the right hon. Member will have heard from my statement that in response to the reported allegations that are listed in the Cabinet Office due diligence, these were, of course, at the time allegations, questions were put to Peter Mandelson by number ten advisers. His responses to those questions are part of documents that we are not yet able to publish, but that we would have liked to have been able to publish today.

Since then, the Prime Minister has made it very clear that Peter Mandelson lied to him. He regrets believing those lies. And if the depth and extent of that relationship with which nobody in this House understood until the Bloomberg publication of documents and the US Department of Justice disclosures, he would never have

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appointed him in the first place. Steve Witherden thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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The release of documents. Outlining what was known about Mandelson Mandelson's association Mandelson Mandelson's association with Epstein is welcome mandelson's avarice, his business connections and his malign influence within the and his malign influence within the Labour Party are simultaneously why he was made ambassador and why he he was made ambassador and why he was useful to Epstein. Does my right hon. Friend agree that we should be seeking to distance ourselves from flawed democracies that are drifting towards authoritarianism, such as the United States, rather than using those associated with sex offenders in order to strengthen such relationships.

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My hon. Friend will know from the statements of the Prime Minister and the documents being published today that he regrets published today that he regrets having ever appointed Peter Mandelson as Ambassador to the United States, and that in our United States, and that in our country we rightly respect the rules that are in place that need to be observed, that there must be to be observed, that there must be clear consequences for people who breach them. And, as I've said in earlier answers that even in our earlier answers that even in our country, we have much further to go to tackle violence against women and girls and structural misogyny, and that we should all have a shared ambition for tackling that as quickly as possible.

14:52

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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Sir Julian Lewis.

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The Chief Secretary, deserves our admiration for always being calm and courteous, even in the

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calm and courteous, even in the most trying circumstances. But he really mustn't take us for fools. Yes.

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Yes. Peter Mandelson had a reputation as one of the most sleazy as one of the most sleazy characters in modern British politics. The Chief Secretary politics. The Chief Secretary confirms that the Prime Minister was warned about what Mandelson had done in continuing a relationship with Epstein, after he had been sent to jail for abusing a young girl. He is saying that, well, the Prime Minister didn't know the depth of this relationship. Is he really expecting us to believe that a shallow relationship with a convicted paedophile is OK?

14:53

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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And I would just say to the >> And I would just say to the right hon. Gentleman that at the time of the appointment, there were public comments from Peter Mandelson. I think in a Financial Times interview where he had said that his relationship had ended much earlier than documents now show, was to be the case on the back of the Cabinet Office. Reports about those newspaper stories. The Prime Minister had further questions put to Peter Mandelson, documents for which we will be able to publish in due course.

And that's why the Prime Minister says that he regrets having believed Peter Mandelson's lies, and wished he'd never appointed him in the first place.

14:54

Ian Byrne MP (Liverpool West Derby, Labour)

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Fern. >> Fern. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The appointment of Lord Chancellor is not just a catastrophic error of judgement that has caused profound damage to this government's reputation. It was the result of a click at the top of the party, as we have seen with the Morgan McSweeney and Labour Together scandal, for which I and colleagues on these benches are called for the Prime Minister and General Secretary of the Labour Party to launch an independent investigation into. So can the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister outline what structural safeguards are being implemented today to ensure that cronyism never again overrides the national interest in high level appointments? Well said.

14:55

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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And I refer my hon. Friend to the list of changes that the government is undertaking from my statement earlier, from the work of the Ethics and Integrity Commission to a review of the business appointment rules, to looking at the role of lobbying and transparency, to make sure there are consequences for the few people who do seek to breach those rules. And together alongside with the Duty of Candour Bill, which has been mentioned in the debate so far, this will be the widest range of changes to our ethics and standards framework in many, many years, if not a generation.

I will just reiterate, as I did in my statement, that the vast majority of public servants serve the public for the right reasons and adhere to the rules. But evidently, when there are those that seek to evade them, we need to ensure that we're more effective at catching that in the future.

14:55

Rt Hon Jeremy Corbyn MP (Islington North, Independent)

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Jeremy Corbyn. >> Jeremy Corbyn. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I find this faux outrage about Mandelson really astonishing. He Mandelson really astonishing. He was a man that was closely involved with the current Prime Minister, the leadership of the Labour Party ever since, ever since Tony Blair and very closely since 2020. They must have known his character. They must have known what he was like when, in the documents that the government is now producing, will we know every piece of advice that was given to the Prime Minister by his officials and by the foreign and by the Foreign Office? And specifically, will there be a record of any verbal briefings given to the Prime Minister before he made this calamitous decision to send Mandelson to Washington? I think the public need to know why the Prime Minister, despite all the knowledge about Mandelson, felt the appointment.

14:56

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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Yeah, yeah. Gentleman's question, the tranche of documents today that relate to the appointment and then the dismissal of Peter Mandelson as ambassador, are inclusive of all of the documents held by government, by those which have been held back by the Metropolitan Police for their criminal investigation. There are no other further documents that have not been published.

14:57

John Slinger MP (Rugby, Labour)

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John Slinger.

14:57

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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The Prime. Minister rightly called for the removal of peerages from disgraced peers. So can the Chief Secretary set out to the House when we might have an update about the proposed legislation in

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that regard? Can I thank my hon. Friend for the question. As the House knows the question. As the House knows from previous statements on this issue, we want to ensure that where people break the rules, there are consequences for that behaviour. One of the areas where this was not the case was the appointment of life peerages. In the other place where there were no provisions for taking a peerage from somebody in any circumstance, which has been a problem in the past in relation to criminal convictions and other disreputable.

It's right, therefore, that the government is working with the other place to bring forward legislation to give the authority and powers for that to happen in the future, and we'll be coming forward with those proposals in due course. course.

14:58

Rt Hon Sir Julian Smith MP (Skipton and Ripon, Conservative)

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Julian Smith Mr. speaker, two Global Council clients benefited from direct government defence awards. There were Global Council staff flying to Washington parties to join Peter Mandelson. Could the Minister confirm that, either in this bundle or in future documents, there will be a rigorous view and report to Parliament of the background, to those awards and to all of the parties that will be guestlist for those parties, just so that Parliament can see what happened and how we improve things again.

14:58

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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Hear, hear. published today will be subject to the Metropolitan Police and clearance from the Intelligence and Security Committee published in the next tranche, Richard Burgon.

14:58

Richard Burgon MP (Leeds East, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And I hold in my hand the advice that was given to the Prime Minister before he made the decision to appoint Peter Mandelson as Ambassador to the USA. Reading this advice document, it's clear that the Prime Minister wouldn't have given the go ahead for this individual, Peter Mandelson, to stand as a Labour candidate for town council, but instead he was elevated despite what's in the document. Despite what was known to this most important of positions.

There's a whole section entitled relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. The question that has to be asked is, how did it even get to the stage where the Prime Minister was interviewing Mandelson for this job and considering him for this job? The simple answer is political. It's because it suited the interests of a tiny faction in the Labour Party, funded by big business, who wanted Mandelson at the heart of things in order to shift a Labour government away from the agenda that the real Labour government should have.

That's why Mandelson was popular with these people. That's why he was one of their favourite sons. And that's why, despite his despicable character, despite his greed and his avarice, he was put in this position despite what was known. Isn't that the case?

15:00

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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It's not for me, Madam Deputy Speaker, to speak on behalf of Peter Mandelson. But evidently he put himself forward for this role, which is how he ended up in the process in the first place. So the question of his appointment, as I've said to the House, the Prime Minister regrets his appointment and apologises for it. And had he known what the House now knows, he

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would never have appointed him in the first place. Lisa Smart much, Madam Deputy Speaker. In his remarks, the Chief Speaker. In his remarks, the Chief Secretary mentions policy and process weaknesses in our political system, and he's right to do so. system, and he's right to do so. But surely the real failure is one of the Prime Minister's judgement. He also talks about the depth of He also talks about the depth of Mandelson's relationship with Epstein not being known, but Mandelson's character was, and it Mandelson's character was, and it was known for a long time.

There was a long standing interview exercise when somebody was applying to be a press officer for the Liberal Democrats. Peter Mandelson has resigned in disgrace again. Draft the press release. It is difficult to legislate out poor judgement, but the Chief Secretary has talked about legislating for policy and process weaknesses. When does he plan to bring forward this legislation?

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Thank you. There are a number of changes that can be made without legislation, and I'll be able to legislation, and I'll be able to update the House on that in due course. That will, of course, be quicker to implement as a consequence of it not requiring consequence of it not requiring statute where we specifically need statutory changes, which I think at this stage will predominantly relate to the removal of peerages from those in the other place that bring the House into disrepute.

As I say, we'll bring that forward in

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the coming months. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I do thank the Minister for his statement and also for the tone in which he's brought here today. I think it's been quite an open statement in terms of the discussion. But I think as a government, we are serious about the whole agenda of violence against women and girls. And I cannot I just cannot conclude that, given Mandelson, £75,000 is compatible with that. So I do hope that he repays it. I mean, I think constituents Edinburgh South West are really concerned about Epstein's links, the British establishment really concerned.

And so particularly given the allegations against both Mike Martin Windsor and Mandelson himself, I know there is a live court case, an investigation is under way, but can the government commit to a public inquiry into Epstein's links to the British

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state once these court cases are over? My hon. Friend will know that there is an ongoing criminal investigation in this country. And of course, there's investigations happening in the United States, in happening in the United States, in Congress and elsewhere. As the Prime Minister has said, anybody that has any relationship or had any relationship with Jeffrey Epstein or any connection to the events or organisations that he hosted, should be readily putting themselves forward to answer any questions and try to help bring justice to the victims who have been waiting for too long.

15:03

Harriet Cross MP (Gordon and Buchan, Conservative)

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When will the government release Mandelson's declaration of interest, and why is it not included in the documents released today?

15:03

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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Yeah. available in relation to Peter Mandelson's appointment and dismissal are published in the tranche today, subject to those which have been held back by the Metropolitan Police. All further documents that relate to Humble Address will be released in the second tranche, which will be in the coming weeks.

15:03

Joe Powell MP (Kensington and Bayswater, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Chief Secretary rightly referred to a wider set of reforms on openness, accountability and transparency that will now be considered. And I do welcome Baroness Anderson's appointment to support that work. Can he assure me that lobbying reform writ large will be in scope of the Ethics and Integrity Commission review, and that will include looking at previous Pacac reports, including the Pacac recommendations on the Greensill David Cameron lobbying scandal that still haven't been responded to.

And does he also agree that the antidote to the distrust that we've seen in politics can be better public participation? So I do want to acknowledge the launch of the Citizens Assembly yesterday, and I and I and I personally believe I personally believe that more citizen assemblies is the way to put power closer to the people and country.

15:04

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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Yeah, yeah. to him for his years of work on this issue? I can confirm that the wide ranging set of reviews that are taking place today will happily receive submissions from him and others in this place and the other place, should they wish to make them. And we'll be looking at current and previous reports from the relevant committees in the normal way.

15:04

Jim Allister KC MP (North Antrim, Traditional Unionist Voice)

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Mr. December, 2024, just nine days before the Prime Minister confirmed Mandelson as the new ambassador, these papers show that he was specifically advised of the JP Morgan report from 2009, which expressly said that Mandelson, after Epstein's conviction for soliciting prostitution, prostitution of a minor, quote maintained a particularly close relationship with Epstein after that. Yet the Prime Minister, a former chief prosecutor, chose in those circumstances with that information to believe the lies of Mandelson.

How could that be? And given that it is, what does it say Minister?

15:06

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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Yeah. Peter Mandelson. And had he known the depth and extent of the relationship that we now all know and have confirmed, he would never have appointed him in the first place? That's why the Prime Minister has apologised and acknowledged that his appointment was a mistake.

15:06

Perran Moon MP (Camborne and Redruth, Labour)

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Moon.

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Mars Madam Deputy Speaker, Epstein was a truly despicable criminal and mandelson's lying and criminal and mandelson's lying and actions with Epstein shamed the nation. But does the Chief nation. But does the Chief Secretary agree with me that what we must not do right now is to compromise criminal investigations that the met are currently undertaking? Because to do so would undertaking? Because to do so would be to fail the victims of Epstein and their families. But can the Chief Secretary also reassure the House that as and when documents do come available, they are published in a timely manner? Well, sir.

15:07

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The victims of Jeffrey Webster of Jeffrey Epstein have for too long had justice delayed or denied. And the the very worst that we could do is to undermine a criminal investigation that may at last bring some justice to the horrors that they had suffered. That's why the government is working closely with the Metropolitan Police to make sure that we do everything we can to not prejudice that investigation. It is why there are some documents, even though we might like to publish them, that we've chosen not to do so at the request of the Metropolitan Police.

But I am grateful to the Metropolitan Police for agreeing to allow us to put those documents before the chair of the relevant Select Committee so that in some way, on behalf of the House, there can be independent verification that we are not misusing that process in any way to withhold any documents when we are completely committed to full transparency.

15:07

Chris Law MP (Dundee Central, Scottish National Party)

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Chris Law Deputy Speaker, I call statements. It's not just what's in, but what's left out. We learned today that the due diligence, which has not been spoken about in any detail in the statement, provided the Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, before Peter Mandelson's appointment as a US ambassador, warned it would quote a general reputational risk. So it's not just him sitting down on a chat with Mandelson, not believing him, he was warned it was a general reputational risk. So my question to the Minister is very simple.

Which failing does she think the Prime Minister suffers from? Ignorance, arrogance or both? Yeah.

15:08

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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The Prime Minister has apologised for appointing Peter Mandelson as the ambassador to the United States. He believed the lies that Peter Mandelson put to him in response to questions about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. And as soon as all of us, including the Prime Minister, became aware that those were indeed lies with the publication of documents from Bloomberg in the United States Department of Justice, he was dismissed promptly.

15:08

Martin Wrigley MP (Newton Abbot, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you. investigations. investigations. >> Into Palantir, it's. >> Been. >> Brought to my attention that 20 years ago, Peter Mandelson was years ago, Peter Mandelson was lobbying the government very hard to take on board a strategic supplier from the states. That was not an obvious choice at the time. That sort of decision is something that a financier like Epstein would have made advantage of and made money from. We see the same things with influence and persuasion from Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor.

Will the government commit to following the money and following the money trail, to see that we are not continuing to pay into Epstein's estate through the deals that we are doing with large American

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contractors such as Palantir? Yeah. And Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm

15:09

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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>> And Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm not familiar with the details of the case the hon. Gentleman raises, but if he wishes to write to me with those details, I can commit to

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with those details, I can commit to him that we will look at them. Final question Stephen Gethins. Madam Deputy Speaker, Madam

15:09

Stephen Gethins MP (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry, Scottish National Party)

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>> Madam Deputy Speaker, Madam Deputy Speaker, the the Minister has said that he wants to be open with us. Now, I've put down a series of parliamentary questions about when Peter Mandelson ceased employment at the Foreign Office, and I never got a response. They were first tabled on the 4th of February. Now there was a flurry of emails on the 4th of February without any context to them at all. Will he provide the context? Is it a coincidence? Why can't you answer? Why can't the Minister answer my question previously? And if he does want to be open, then let's try another one.

He said that Peter Mandelson was fired because he told lies. In that case, he's been given a £75,000 payoff, £35,000 of that was a special severance payment, £30,000 of that was tax free. Why on earth was it tax free?

15:10

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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Yeah. Oh, my. relation to the tax free treatment for payments following dismissal without recourse to the Employment without recourse to the Employment Tribunal, those are the tax rules that exist in all circumstances in this country. The government did not have the legal powers to override them. On his question about parliamentary questions, I think the documents he's hoping to see are being published today and they, of course, speak for themselves.

15:11

Gregory Stafford MP (Farnham and Bordon, Conservative)

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At the end of the statement on >> At the end of the statement on Lord Mandelson Humble Address motion update point of order

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motion update point of order Gregory Stafford. On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. During Cabinet Office questions on the 5th of Office questions on the 5th of March, the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister informed me that the appointment of the new Director General of the Propriety and Ethics team was made on an interim basis and in line with the rules. However, I have now received a copy of the Civil Service Recruitment framework, which states that a temporary promotion managed move, or the appointment of a single applicant within the senior Civil Service must require ministerial authorisation, either from the Prime Minister or the relevant Minister, before an appointment can be made without an external competition.

Given the importance of the transparency and confidence in this government's propriety and ethics system, could you please advise the House, Madam Deputy Speaker, on how members can seek clarification when there appears to be a discrepancy between a minister's statement to the House and the provisions set out in the 2022.

15:12

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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Oh. point of order. He will know that I am the chair not responsible for the answers given by Ministers, but the Minister. As I can see, the

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Chief Secretary is already here. I think he wishes to respond. Go ahead, Chief Secretary. I'm happy to do so. Madam Deputy

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I'm happy to do so. Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not recognise the discrepancy. As I've said to the House previously, there was a temporary appointment to the role temporary appointment to the role in question. Within the rules, permanent appointments of that role will be subject to the normal recruitment processes. But if he wishes to write to me with more detail, I'll happily respond to him in writing.

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in writing. Hopefully that enables the member. Otherwise it can obviously pursue this even further. Point of order Liz Saville-Roberts Barry Gardiner.

15:12

Rt Hon Liz Saville Roberts MP (Dwyfor Meirionnydd, Plaid Cymru)

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Has the speaker received any notice of a statement from the government following the question from my hon. Friend, the member of Arbroath and Broughty Ferry to the Prime Minister this morning regarding the contents of a memo from the Prime Minister to Cabinet members advising them to disregard opposition from devolved governments to direct interventions by Westminster Ministers. Could she advise me how the long standing Sewel convention, which enshrines the protocol that Westminster governments do not intervene in devolved matters in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland has been respected in this matter? And could you direct me to which bin this has been filed by the government?

15:13

Ms Nusrat Ghani MP (Sussex Weald, Conservative)

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I thank the hon. Member for >> I thank the hon. Member for giving notice of her point of order. I have received no such indication from the government, but I can see that the Chief Secretary wishes to that the Chief Secretary wishes to respond in person once again.

15:13

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The issues raised in the Cabinet note that's been, I understand, leaked to journalists are important and the government takes them seriously. The sewer convention is an important framework for the role in which the UK government respects the devolved responsibilities of devolved governments, one for which I am the responsible Minister, which is why I have repeated engagement with the First and Deputy First Ministers of the devolved government about our relationship working together. However, I will just remind the House that devolved governments are important.

But in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, there are two governments, the UK government and the devolved government. And that's why we retain the right to deliver for the people of Northern Ireland, England. Gethins.

15:14

Stephen Gethins MP (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry, Scottish National Party)

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Point of order. Madam Deputy Speaker, can I firstly apologise to you that I have not been able to you that I have not been able to give you notice of this, but this is in reference to the response and to the documents. I put down a written parliamentary question about when Peter Mandelson left his employment on the 4th of February. The emails on the 4th of February show that officials knew the answer to that question the 16th of October. Yet not only was my question late when it came back and I had to put down a second question, but no answer was forthcoming.

Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, we have a role here in a job here to keep this government to account. They knew the answer to the question and they did not answer that question. And I know that you will take that

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extraordinarily seriously, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank the Member for I didn't get prior notice of his question, get prior notice of his question, but I can appreciate how anxious he would be. It's incredibly important that members who are sent here by their constituents have their questions answered too quickly. I think that the Chief Secretary

15:15

Ms Nusrat Ghani MP (Sussex Weald, Conservative)

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wishes to respond in person. That's very fast indeed. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

15:15

Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)

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>> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I can only apologise to members of the House if answers to parliamentary questions have not been quick enough to meet the expectations of members of the House. I'll just. I'll just remind members and the hon. Member in question that, of course, all of the documents that have been published today have had to go subject to checks with the Metropolitan Police and the Intelligence and Security Committee to not prejudge criminal investigations, which, as I'm sure he and all members across the House will agree, we do not want to interfere with inappropriately.

15:16

Ms Nusrat Ghani MP (Sussex Weald, Conservative)

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Yeah. were forthcoming, the Chief Secretary might not have to respond at the despatch box to points of order and allow the frontbenchers to shuffle over. Move on to the ten minute rule motion on Lord Advocate and I call John Cooper.

15:16

Ten Minute Rule Motion: Lord Advocate

Yeah, yeah.

15:16

John Cooper MP (Dumfries and Galloway, Conservative)

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15:24

Legislation: Finance (No. 2) Bill: Ways and Means (Amendment of power to make further provision relating to abolition of lifetime allowance charge)