House of Commons
Prayers
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Oral Answers to Questions
(2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Ian Roome (North Devon) (LD)
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Stephen Doughty)
The Foreign Secretary cannot be at today’s Question Time because he is attending the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Samoa with His Majesty the King and the Prime Minister. The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Friern Barnet (Catherine West) is also travelling, in Vietnam.
We will not give a running commentary on our discussions with the European Union. The Minister for the Cabinet Office and others have already made a clear statement on the matter. We will continue to look at EU proposals on a range of issues, but we will not return to freedom of movement. However, we are committed to finding constructive ways of working together and delivering for the British people.
Ian Roome
Does the Minister agree that if Iceland and Monaco can be approved countries under the reciprocal UK mobility scheme, our closest neighbours, such as Ireland and France, should be too? Many schools in my constituency would like a youth mobility agreement because it would be beneficial to our youth.
Stephen Doughty
I was in Iceland the other day. Iceland is, of course, a member of the European economic area and we are not, and we do not seek to rejoin the single market, the customs union or the EU, or to return to freedom of movement. However, the Prime Minister and the President of the European Commission met in Brussels on 2 October and agreed to strengthen the relationship between the EU and the UK and put it on a more solid and stable footing. The Foreign Secretary attended the Foreign Affairs Council in Luxembourg on 14 October. Both those meetings mark a significant moment in our reset with Europe.
Ms Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)
It is welcome to hear the Minister talk about looking at what the EU might suggest. It is important to be clear that the youth mobility scheme is not freedom of movement. We already have schemes with Uruguay, Japan, Canada, New Zealand and Australia, and it is clear that strict conditions apply to when somebody can come here. Will the Minister update us on when he next expects to discuss the subject with the EU?
Stephen Doughty
Of course, we discuss a range of issues with our partners and friends in the EU. As I said earlier, I will not give a running commentary on those discussions. We have been clear that we will not return to freedom of movement or rejoin the EU.
Alex Baker (Aldershot) (Lab)
Luke Akehurst (North Durham) (Lab)
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Stephen Doughty)
I can confirm that, alongside our G7 allies, UK support for Ukraine is iron clad. We have already made it clear that we will provide £3 billion a year of military support for Ukraine for as long as that is needed. We are investing in Ukraine’s defence industrial base and we are ratcheting up the pressure on Putin’s war machine and on third-country supplies. I am delighted that the Chancellor has today announced that we will provide £2.26 billion in additional support to Ukraine as part of the G7 extraordinary revenue acceleration loans to Ukraine scheme.
Alex Baker
Ukraine is facing a difficult winter. What steps are the Government taking to help ensure that Ukraine is in the best possible position to deal with the challenges that that will bring?
Stephen Doughty
I agree with my hon. Friend: Putin’s shocking and barbarous attacks on Ukrainian energy infrastructure have increased the vulnerability of millions of Ukrainians before this winter. That is why I have announced and signed off £20 million in additional support for Ukraine’s energy system. We are working with partners across Europe and in the G7 to support Ukrainians in this area.
Luke Akehurst
Does my hon. Friend agree that Ukraine’s rightful place is with other European democracies in the NATO alliance?
Stephen Doughty
My hon. Friend will know that the NATO Secretary-General was in London recently alongside President Zelensky, where the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary welcomed them. Our allies have made it clear that Ukraine’s future is in NATO and, indeed, in Washington they confirmed that Ukraine is on an irreversible path to NATO membership. We will play a leading role in supporting Ukraine’s pathway to membership.
Sir Roger Gale (Herne Bay and Sandwich) (Con)
Given that answer, does the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office consider that the reported presence of the United Nations Secretary-General at Putin’s summit in Russia will be helpful or unhelpful to Ukraine? If the latter, what is the Minister doing about it?
Stephen Doughty
While I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question, obviously the meetings that the United Nations Secretary-General chooses to attend are a matter for him, not for the Government. We continue to work with a wide range of allies to support Ukraine across the G7, as we have in relation to today’s announcement, and with our partners in Europe.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
Does the Minister share my concern about worrying reports of North Korean troops fighting for Russia in Ukraine? What message would he give from the Dispatch Box to Pyongyang?
Stephen Doughty
I absolutely share the right hon. Gentleman’s concerns. The Foreign Secretary has been clear that we condemn in the strongest terms the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea’s continued unlawful arms transfers, and the reported deployments of its troops to the Russian Federation to support the unlawful war of aggression in Ukraine. That is not only in violation of multiple United Nations Security Council resolutions, but it will also prolong the suffering of the Ukrainian people and threatens global security, so we condemn it in absolute terms.
Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stamford) (Con)
To move us beyond the condemnation, in the last week, troops from North Korea have arrived in Russia and are training in Russian fatigues, based on videos that we have seen. In addition, we know that Russia has procured multiple weapons from North Korea to aid the murder of Ukrainians. Putin has seized the escalation ladder, so will the Minister now declare North Korea a combatant in the renewed illegal invasion of Ukraine, démarche the North Korean chargé and confirm what unilateral and multilateral action we will be taking in response?
Stephen Doughty
I thank the shadow Minister for her points. We absolutely condemn what North Korea is reported to have been doing. She will have seen in our response to the Iranian transfer of ballistic missiles to Russia that we acted strongly, swiftly and firmly. We are closely monitoring what Russia is providing to the DPRK in return for its provision of arms and military personnel. We are deeply concerned about the potential for further transfers, including of ballistic missile-related technology. That would obviously jeopardise peace and stability not only in Ukraine, but across the world, and we condemn it absolutely.
Nigel Farage (Clacton) (Reform)
Gregory Stafford (Farnham and Bordon) (Con)
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Stephen Doughty)
The Government inherited a situation where the long-term secure operation of the Diego Garcia military base was under threat. The agreement that we have reached secures the future of the base and strengthens our role in safeguarding global security. The agreement is subject to the finalisation of a treaty that the Government intend to complete in the coming months. Parliament will have the opportunity to scrutinise the treaty in the usual manner, following its signature.
Nigel Farage
Since the mistaken opening of negotiations by the last Government on the sovereignty of the Chagos islands, it turns out that the British high commissioner and others appear to have been bugged by the Government of Mauritius. If the police investigation proves that to be true and we can see that Mauritius—their Government at least—are bad actors, is the 99-year lease on Diego Garcia even worth the paper that it is written on?
Stephen Doughty
We note the reports with significant concern, but the hon. Gentleman will understand that I am not going to comment on an ongoing police investigation. As I pointed out yesterday, the reports relate to historical conversations, not during the current round of negotiations. We are confident that we have achieved a treaty that meets our national security objectives, closes off a migration route and fundamentally respects the interests of the Chagossian people.
Gregory Stafford
How can the Minister continue to defend the ceding of the Chagos islands to Mauritius when China is rapidly expanding its influence in the Indo-Pacific? With no binding agreement against Chinese military involvement in the future, have the Government recklessly compromised British and allied security just to appease vested interests?
Stephen Doughty
I completely reject what the hon. Gentleman suggests about Mauritius somehow being in hock to China or the agreement somehow opening up a place for China. Let me be clear: Mauritius is one of only two African countries that have not signed up to the belt and road initiative. There is absolutely no way that we, or the United States, would have signed off a treaty across the national security apparatus that compromised any of our security interests or those of our allies. The unequivocal support from the United States—the President, the Secretary of State, the Defence Secretary and across the establishment—makes it clear that this is the right deal for our security and that of our allies.
Deirdre Costigan (Ealing Southall) (Lab)
Will Stone (Swindon North) (Lab)
Anna Dixon (Shipley) (Lab)
Laura Kyrke-Smith (Aylesbury) (Lab)
Dr Zubir Ahmed (Glasgow South West) (Lab)
Neil O’Brien (Harborough, Oadby and Wigston) (Con)
Catherine Fookes (Monmouthshire) (Lab)
The Minister for Development (Anneliese Dodds)
October is likely to see the least aid enter Gaza since the start of the conflict. That is unacceptable. As the Foreign Secretary stated on 16 October, the UK is pressing Israel, alongside our partners, to allow the aid into Gaza that is so clearly needed in this desperate situation, and to enable the UN and its humanitarian partners to operate effectively.
Deirdre Costigan
I recently met representatives from the West London Islamic Centre in my constituency of Ealing Southall, who told me that they are deeply concerned about the plight of severely injured children in Gaza who need urgent medical help. Will the Minister outline what work she is doing to ensure that those children have access to the very best medical attention?
Anneliese Dodds
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this important issue and to her constituents and the very many people across the UK who are determined to do what they can. We have seen that with the UK public’s response to the Disasters Emergency Committee appeal, matched by the Government up to £10 million. She asked specifically about young children who have been caught up and injured. The extent of disease and injury is significant and deeply concerning. We have provided significant support, including through UK-Med for its field hospital in Gaza. Last week, my hon. Friend the Minister of State announced £1 million for the Egyptian health Ministry to support medically evacuated Palestinians from Gaza.
Will Stone
Many residents from Swindon North have contacted me expressing their concerns about Gaza. What steps is the Minister taking to help improve the humanitarian situation in Gaza?
Anneliese Dodds
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this matter. We see people up and down the country who are very concerned about the humanitarian situation in Gaza. Clearly, we now have extreme levels of food insecurity. We are very concerned about the situation in northern Gaza in particular. The Foreign Secretary, the Prime Minister and all of us in the ministerial team have been very clear to all actors in the region and others that there must be access to the aid that is so desperately needed in all of Gaza.
Anna Dixon
Since the devastating Hamas attack on Israel more than a year ago, an estimated 42,000 Palestinians have died, including many civilians, and many more families have been repeatedly displaced. Will the Minister assure me and my constituents that the Government are using the full diplomatic force at their disposal to secure an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and to allow the free flow of humanitarian aid?
Anneliese Dodds
Yes, I can. A resolution to this conflict has been a priority since day one of the new Government. We are calling for an immediate ceasefire, the release of all hostages still cruelly detained by Hamas, and much more aid to enter Gaza. The death and destruction in Gaza is intolerable and we have made that clear at every possible moment.
Laura Kyrke-Smith
I declare an interest as a former board member of the Disasters Emergency Committee. I am delighted to see the British public’s generous response to its appeal. I know that its member agencies are doing everything in their power to get aid to those who need it, but one of those agencies, Islamic Relief, told me yesterday about the situation in Jabalia where people are being “starved, bombed and shot on sight”. What conversations has the Minister had with Israeli counterparts to end the indiscriminate attacks on people in Gaza and let in the lifesaving aid that the British public are so generously supporting?
Anneliese Dodds
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her question. Again, I express our gratitude to the DEC for its work in ensuring that there has been that emergency appeal for the middle east. I should have mentioned earlier that that is covering not just Gaza, but Lebanon and the broader middle east where there is also that urgent humanitarian need. I can reassure her that, on issues of access to aid, the UK Government have been crystal clear on the need for the maintenance of international humanitarian law across the region, which of course includes Israel as well, as the Foreign Secretary underlined at the end of last week.
Dr Ahmed
Will the Minister reassure me that September’s export licence ban with Israel covers items that we reasonably believe could be used to breach international law in Gaza? Will she further reassure me that the remaining export licences with Israel largely do not cover the Israel Defence Forces or military equipment?
Anneliese Dodds
I wish to be very clear as I think there is some confusion on this important point. Following the 2 September suspension, there are currently no extant UK export licences—I repeat, no extant export licences—for items to Israel that we assess might be used to commit or facilitate a serious violation of international humanitarian law. There is only one exception, which is for F-35 components, and the Foreign Secretary has explained that to the House. My hon. Friend is right to say that most licences for exports to Israel are not for the IDF, and I am pleased to be able to put that on the record for the House.
Neil O’Brien
The footage of children caught up in the fighting in Gaza is horrendous, and so is the footage of those who are still held hostage. First, what is the Minister doing to ensure the protection of aid workers in Gaza and Lebanon and, secondly, given that she has just told us that our efforts to get more aid in are not working, what are her next ideas? Where will we go from here, because clearly it is not working?
Anneliese Dodds
We have indeed seen some extremely disturbing scenes. Of course, it is important that we ensure that there is verified information in the fog of such a horrendous war. We have all seen those scenes and been disturbed by them. The UK Government are determined to do all that we can to ensure that aid is accessed by those who need it. We are using every opportunity to do so, which involves working with UN agencies in detail. I have had many meetings with them. The hon. Gentleman will know that we have resumed support for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. We have been in close contact with it, the World Food Programme and all others working on this, and we have also been working bilaterally with all our partners in the region. There are a number of different countries working with us to try to ensure that there is access to aid, which is desperately needed.
Catherine Fookes
I thank my right hon. Friend for all that she has done so far on this issue. My constituents, including Damon and Annie, are extremely concerned that every day things are only getting worse. The UN says that all essential supplies for survival are running out. Given the abject conditions in north Gaza, the fact that humanitarian access is nearly non-existent is unconscionable. A year on from the start of the conflict, we are still debating restrictions on the flow of aid by Israeli authorities. What more can my right hon. Friend do to ensure that people who are dying from hunger, thirst and lack of medical care receive the attention they need?
Anneliese Dodds
I can only underline the fact that the new UK Government are doing all that we can to get aid in as quickly as possible, supporting trusted partners on the ground to deliver life-saving humanitarian aid. As has been mentioned, we have agreed to match up to £10 million of public donations to the Disasters Emergency Committee’s middle east humanitarian appeal. That will provide life-saving aid, including medical supplies, shelter and clean water, to people in need, on top of the support that we have released to UNRWA. That aid needs to get to the people who desperately need it, and I refer to my response to an earlier question on that point. We are using every avenue to advance that cause.
Kit Malthouse (North West Hampshire) (Con)
The images coming out of northern Gaza have horrified many, as has the news of yet more indiscriminate bombing, and many people have reached into humanity’s darkest periods for historical comparisons. I do not know which of those is appropriate, but I do know that on each of those occasions we told ourselves that this time was different, yet it never was. Does the ministerial team realise that what they do now is what they would have done then? If they do, do they believe that the conversations that they are having are enough, and if they do not, when will they act positively to bring about a ceasefire?
Anneliese Dodds
I am grateful to the right hon. Member for his question, but he must recognise that from the first day of the new Government coming into position we have sought to do all we can to advance the cause of a ceasefire. On the issue of international humanitarian law, which he rightly and clearly stated as an imperative, we have been consistently clear as a new Government that Israel must comply with international humanitarian law. It must allow unfettered aid access. Our message is clear: Israel could and must do more to ensure that aid reaches civilians in Gaza. We have upheld our legal requirements around that, as he will have seen in relation to decisions taken around arms export licences.
Brendan O’Hara (Argyll, Bute and South Lochaber) (SNP)
Last month, the Minister of State told the House that
“we could not be clearer: intentionally directing attacks at civilian objects is a war crime. Those attacks threaten civilian access to power, heating and water supply, impacting the safety and livelihoods of millions of Ukrainians.” —[Official Report, 2 September 2024; Vol. 753, c. 29.]
She was right, so why is it that the Government can call out Putin’s war crimes the moment they happen, but they seem utterly incapable of doing that when the perpetrator is Netanyahu and the victims are Palestinians?
Anneliese Dodds
I regret the tone of the hon. Member’s question. Surely he can recognise that the new Government prioritise doing all that we can to secure the required ceasefire. The Government have repeatedly conveyed not just messages but action time and again to make sure we play our part, and that has been recognised internationally. The changes we have made around UNRWA, our commitment to the International Criminal Court and International Court of Justice, ensuring we hold to our legal requirements around arms exports—that is a Government that are committed to international humanitarian law.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
Intercepted communications demonstrate that Hamas are struggling to find room in their warehouses for the aid that is arriving. What action will the Minister take to ensure that UNRWA actually gets that aid to the people who need it—and we accept they need it desperately—when Hamas are preventing it from reaching the Palestinian population?
Anneliese Dodds
The Government are clear that UNRWA plays a vital role in saving lives in Gaza, providing much needed food and basic services and supporting stability in the west bank and wider region. Wherever there are allegations or reports that there may have been unacceptable activity—such as that covered in the Colonna report—we have stated clearly to UNRWA that they must be investigated. It did do that with the Colonna report, and the UK Government have supported the implementation of the findings of that report. We continue to discuss that in detail with UNRWA so that it can operate in the manner that it is mandated to do by international law.
Mr Adnan Hussain (Blackburn) (Ind)
While I appreciate the comments about aid, does the Minister condemn the ethnic cleansing and annexation of northern Gaza under the general’s plan, with aid not being allowed in? If so, what action is being taken to demonstrate the UK’s strongest objection?
Anneliese Dodds
The UK Government are extremely concerned by the situation in northern Gaza. This morning I was discussing it with humanitarians, as I have been doing just about every day. We really see a deterioration in people’s circumstances there in terms of health and access to aid. As I said at the beginning of the question, the fact that this month will likely see the lowest amount of aid since the start of the conflict is unacceptable. We are deeply concerned that we have now seen many people who have been displaced not just once, twice or three times, but up to nine times. We will continue to argue for the need for humanitarian access to Gaza.
Greg Smith (Mid Buckinghamshire) (Con)
Further to the answer the Minister gave a few moments ago, UNRWA supplies were found in the Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar’s underground hideout. As my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) said, Hamas terrorists are struggling to find warehouse space to store all the misappropriated aid. When will the Government review their commitment to funding UNRWA and actually take action to stop the misappropriation of that aid?
Anneliese Dodds
I refer the hon. Member to my previous response on that. The UK Government take any such allegations very seriously. We have ensured that those are taken up with UNRWA, and with the Colonna report we saw a thorough investigation into the allegations, some of which were proven. UNRWA has been taking action in order to deal with them. It is really important that neutrality is held to, and we as the UK have played our part by ensuring that UNRWA has the funding required to implement those recommendations.
Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con)
Following the removal of the international terrorist Yahya Sinwar and the possibility of an amnesty for those who now release the 97 remaining hostages, what pressure are the Government bringing to bear on Hamas to urge them to lay down their arms and release the hostages, both of which are necessary for full, unfettered access for humanitarian relief in Gaza?
Anneliese Dodds
I am grateful to the right hon. Member for raising this incredibly important issue. The suffering, especially of the family and friends of the hostages, is indescribable. The Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister have met with them, particularly those who have UK links, and have repeatedly ensured that the release of hostages must be prioritised. They have articulated that message time and time again, and will continue to do so until the hostages are able to return home, as they must be able to do.
Mr Mitchell
Co-existence is inescapable, and a two-state solution is one day inevitable, as both Israelis and Palestinians are here to stay. Just as the first intifada ushered in the historic breakthrough at Oslo, so too Britain—with its deep regional connections, UN responsibilities and brilliant diplomatic service—has a key role in lifting people’s eyes to a very different future. What discussions are the Government having on this issue, building on the significant efforts started under the last Government?
Anneliese Dodds
We do not always agree across the Dispatch Box, but I strongly agree with the right hon. Member’s characterisation of the need for a two-state solution. Ultimately, that is the only way of delivering the peace and security that the people of Israel and Palestine deserve. Making sure that we play our part in exercising leadership towards that two-state solution is a long-term commitment of this Government, but of course—as he would expect—we need to show what that can deliver. A huge amount of work is ongoing around reconstruction, and I have discussed that issue in detail with the World Bank, for example. It has been conducting a survey of the needs that will have to be met, making sure that work is fully co-ordinated so that we can achieve that secure future for those who are in Gaza at the moment.
Calum Miller (Bicester and Woodstock) (LD)
The attack saw
“more than four, five residential blocks...razed to the ground. Some…reached the hospital, some…remain under the rubble.”
That is the account of Dr Eid Sabbah of Kamal Adwan hospital in northern Gaza, which he gave to the BBC yesterday. I have noted the Minister’s qualified response earlier, but as the UN special envoy for the peace process warns that
“nowhere is safe in Gaza”,
does she agree that the UK should now cease all arms exports to Israel?
Anneliese Dodds
With all due respect the hon. Member, my county colleague, I urge him to look again at what I stated, which stipulated very clearly the legal grounds for that decision about arms exports. I was clear that the restrictions that have been placed on arms due to that legal regime, which the UK Government were determined to fulfil, are because the other licences are not going to be used in the manner that some would suggest. We are very clear about the need to fulfil our international responsibilities in that regard. The hon. Member also talked about the role of healthcare workers within Gaza, and we pay tribute to all those who have been delivering healthcare. Many are British citizens; the British Government have supported UK-Med, and we pay tribute to them.
Jonathan Davies (Mid Derbyshire) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Hamish Falconer)
The Foreign Office works closely with our allies and partners to counter Iran’s support for proscribed groups, which include Hamas—as many Members have mentioned—as well as Lebanese Hezbollah and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. We currently have over 400 sanctions in place on Iran in response to its human rights violations, nuclear escalation and terrorism. We also continue to hold Iran publicly accountable for its direct support of terrorism, as my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary did in his intervention at the Security Council on 25 September.
Jonathan Davies
Iran’s malign activity and support for its proxies is destabilising the middle east. Does the Minister agree that this must end, and will he say a little more about what steps he is taking?
Hamish Falconer
I do agree. In all of our efforts in the region, we are clear that Hamas and the other Iranian proxies that are doing so much to destabilise the region must stop. We are working with our allies to that effect, including by reviewing new measures that we can take.
Suella Braverman (Fareham and Waterlooville) (Con)
For years, the Foreign Secretary and the Labour party have promised to proscribe the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, the chief sponsor of global terrorism. Are the Government going to take action to tackle terrorism and extremism in the UK, or are they going to break yet another promise?
Hamish Falconer
As I understand the question from the former Home Secretary, she is saying that when she was Home Secretary she did not proscribe the IRGC, but she thinks we should have done so within 100 days. I say to my hon. Friends that we will take the necessary steps in the UK to prevent the IRGC from taking action on these streets, but as she knows well, we do not comment on whether an organisation is under consideration for proscription in the normal way.
Jodie Gosling (Nuneaton) (Lab)
The Minister for Development (Anneliese Dodds)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising the issue of illegal migration. This Government are strengthening key international relationships to tackle organised immigration crime, increase returns and secure our borders. My Department is also funding activity to address the drivers of irregular migration by improving the prospects of people in their home region, tackling humanitarian crises and targeting trafficking.
Jodie Gosling
Will the Minister please outline the ways in which the new Government are working with our French partners to tackle the shared challenges of dangerous channel crossings?
Anneliese Dodds
The UK Government have been absolutely determined to work with our key partners on these questions. My Department has also focused on ensuring support for what is often called upstream migration—the drivers of the reasons why people feel they have to leave their home country or region in the first place. That has included, for example, support to help refugees in Jordan to stay in the region from which they come and support for the UN’s migration multi-partner trust fund.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Minister for that response. Legal immigration is very important, and people should have that opportunity if they have been persecuted or there are human rights issues, but economic migrants have to be stopped in their countries. France also has a very clear part to play, and we sometimes feel that it has not done so as strongly as it should have done. Has the Minister had an opportunity to speak to her French counterpart to ensure that France plays its part in stopping the economic migrants coming across the channel?
Anneliese Dodds
I am grateful to the hon. Member for his important question. This new Government have been determined to strengthen our relationships with all of our partners, including France, on these questions. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has viewed this as a priority from day one, and she has been determined to ensure that we have both the right legal framework and the right logistical measures. As I have said, we of course need to tackle the reasons why people cannot have a livelihood in their own countries, and we are doing a huge amount in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office to ensure we deliver on that.
Zöe Franklin (Guildford) (LD)
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Stephen Doughty)
I thank the hon. Lady for her question. Culture, Media and Sport Ministers are responsible for Government policy on touring artists, with support from colleagues across Government. The Government provide support for artists via the music export growth scheme, funded by the Department for Business and Trade and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, and the international showcase fund, funded by the DBT. We are engaging with the EU and member states to explore how best to improve arrangements for touring in Europe without a return to free movement.
Zöe Franklin
Young emerging artists, the very future of our multibillion-pound music industry, are the worst impacted by the bureaucracy we now have. Will the Minister reconsider negotiating a European-wide exemption from visas, work permits and travelling restrictions to set UK artists free from frustrating red tape?
Stephen Doughty
The hon. Lady raises very important issues, and we recognise the challenges faced by the sector that she sets out. We are committed to helping our touring artists without seeking a return to freedom of movement. I will work closely with my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office, as well as with Culture, Media and Sport Ministers and other colleagues, on these issues. We are committed to seeking allowances for cabotage, carnets, and customs rules for music, performing arts and culture touring, but at this stage it is too early to discuss that in greater detail.
Tim Roca (Macclesfield) (Lab)
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Stephen Doughty)
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. My right hon. and learned Friend the Prime Minister met the President of the European Commission on 2 October, and agreed to strengthen the relationship between the EU and the UK and to hold regular UK-EU summits. The Foreign Secretary attended the EU Foreign Affairs Council on 14 October in Luxembourg, and he and the High Representative agreed to advance discussions towards a new UK-EU security partnership. I have had many meetings bilaterally, and indeed as part of processes alongside EU colleagues, on issues from Moldova to the western Balkans in recent weeks.
Tim Roca
I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s attendance at the EU Foreign Affairs Council. Will the Minister confirm if this will be part of a more regular, structured engagement with our European colleagues?
Stephen Doughty
I can absolutely confirm that that is the case. We are committed to resetting our relationship and to delivering outcomes in practice. As I mentioned, I attended the Moldova partnership platform in Chisinău last month. It is particularly important that we work alongside our EU partners when it comes to the attacks on Moldova’s democratic future by Putin’s Russia. We also had important discussions about the western Balkans in Berlin last week. I was there with the President of the European Commission and Chancellor Scholz, and it is absolutely important that we work together on these critical challenges.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
While we hope that it never happens, if a future American President wished to withdraw support from Ukraine, will the Government assure us that that would be a prominent item on the agenda in their conversations with EU leaders?
Stephen Doughty
Obviously, decisions in America are for the American people, but the special relationship endures, regardless of the Administration or who is in the White House, and it is deep and enduring, as the right hon. Gentleman knows well from his important former roles. We absolutely need to co-operate with our EU partners on support for Ukraine, and that is why today it is so fantastic to hear the news that we have agreed, as promised, with the G7 and with our European and indeed our American partners, the extraordinary revenue acceleration scheme that will deliver new money to Ukraine now.
Bobby Dean (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Stephen Doughty)
As a matter of long-standing policy, which the hon. Gentleman will understand, the Government do not comment on the detail of national security matters, but let me be clear: any attempt by any foreign power to threaten or undermine the UK’s democracy will not be tolerated. The National Security Act 2023 brings together vital new measures to protect our national security, which we are committed to as a new Government. I regularly meet my ministerial colleagues, including the Minister for Security, to discuss those matters.
Bobby Dean
Thousands of Hongkongers have made my local community their home under the British national overseas visa scheme, but too many of them still face the threat of surveillance, harassment, and intimidation by the Chinese state. Will the Government confirm that they have raised the issue of transnational repression in conversations with the Chinese Government, and made clear that it is a totally unacceptable interference in British democracy?
Stephen Doughty
The Government will take a consistent long-term and strategic approach to our relations with China, rooted in the UK and global interests, and the Government are deeply committed to supporting all members of the Hong Kong community who have relocated to the UK. I reiterate that any attempts by foreign Governments to coerce, intimidate or harm their critics overseas are unacceptable, and regardless of nationality, freedom of speech and other fundamental rights of all people in the UK are protected under our domestic law.
Blair McDougall (East Renfrewshire) (Lab)
My constituency is also home to a new and growing population of Hongkongers who, although they are now in a free country, live in fear of the repression that the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Bobby Dean) described. That is not least because of the reported presence until recently of a secret police station in Glasgow, run by the Chinese Communist party. Will the Minister join me in sending a clear signal to the Chinese state: “hands off Hong Kong Scots”?
Stephen Doughty
I have made clear our support to the Hong Kong community in the UK, and we have made clear to Chinese authorities that the existence of undeclared sites in the UK is unacceptable, and their operation must cease. We have been told that they have now closed. The Foreign Secretary was in China on 18 and 19 October, where he met his counterpart Foreign Minister Wang Yi and other senior Chinese figures, and he raised human rights, including issues related to Hong Kong.
Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stamford) (Con)
Freedom of speech is fundamental to democracy, yet Jimmy Lai’s sham trial is due to resume on 20 November. The Foreign Secretary has so far failed to meet Jimmy’s family, as well as that of Jagtar Singh Johal, whom he promised he would meet within weeks at the last Foreign Office oral questions. Five weeks ago, I wrote to Ministers about Ryan Cornelius and Alaa Abd el-Fattah, who should both be free by now, but I have received no response from the Department. When will the Government bring forward their promised special envoy for arbitrary detention, come back to shadow Foreign Ministers, and get our people home?
Stephen Doughty
We call on the Hong Kong authorities to end their politically motivated prosecution and immediately release British national Jimmy Lai. His case remains a high priority for His Majesty’s Government, and UK diplomats attend his court hearing in Hong Kong. The Foreign Secretary recently raised the case with Wang Yi during his visit to Beijing on 18 October. On 24 July the Foreign Secretary raised the case of Jagtar Singh Johal with the Indian External Affairs Minister, and I am happy to write to the hon. Lady further about those matters. She can be assured that we take these cases incredibly seriously.
Alex Ballinger (Halesowen) (Lab)
Mary Glindon (Newcastle upon Tyne East and Wallsend) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Hamish Falconer)
The UK was the first G7 country to call for an immediate ceasefire between Lebanese Hezbollah and Israel, when we did so on 19 September. A political solution consistent with resolution 1701 is the only way to restore security and stability for the people living on both sides of the blue line. We continue to press for that with vigour and urgency with our international counterparts. The Foreign Secretary did so last week, and so did I. We will continue to do so this week and every day.
Alex Ballinger
We are appalled by the increase in violence after Israel’s ground invasion of Lebanon. As somebody who used to work in Beirut when the country welcomed a million Syrian refugees, it is upsetting to see people on the move again after so much violence. I thank the Foreign Secretary for his diplomatic efforts so far. Does the Minister agree that there is no military solution to the conflict in Lebanon? Will he outline again in more detail what diplomatic efforts he is making to ensure that we have a ceasefire so that Lebanese and Israeli civilians can return to their homes?
Hamish Falconer
We agree very much. Only a political solution will enable Lebanese civilians to return to their homes and Israeli civilians to return to the north of Israel. Clearly Hezbollah has been conducting terrible attacks on northern Israel for a long time—from 8 October, which was a terrible day to choose to start. We are working with all our allies on a plan based around resolution 1701. We talk regularly with all the key players in the region and in particular with Amos Hochstein, the US envoy working on a proposal to achieve the effect of 1701. We will continue to do so.
Mary Glindon
The reported attacks on United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon bases by the Israel Defence Forces show disregard for resolution 1701 and the existing diplomatic framework for peace. Last week’s joint statement by Foreign Ministers and our allies condemning all the threats to UNIFIL’s security was welcome, so can the Foreign Minister tell the House what discussions he has had with Israeli political leaders to supplement that action? Were they productive?
Hamish Falconer
I thank my hon. Friend for her important question. We are absolutely clear that attacks by the IDF on UNIFIL bases must stop, and they must stop immediately. We have called on Israel to that effect. We have called on all parties to uphold their obligations in ensuring the safety and security of UNIFIL personnel. I am sure that many in this House will be looking each day at the reports from UNIFIL on the situation there. As I have said in answer to previous questions, only a political solution consistent with UN Security Council resolution 1701 can restore stability and security. We continue to raise these matters with the Israelis at every level, and I will continue to do so this week.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
UNIFIL and UN Security Council resolution 1701 plainly have not prevented the construction of tunnels and forward attack positions by Iranian proxies south of the Litani river. What discussions will the Foreign Secretary be having with the United Nations to ensure that something is put in place to replace 1701, to strengthen the role of UNIFIL and prevent aggressive action by Hezbollah and its fellow travellers?
Hamish Falconer
The first thing we have to do is get Hezbollah back north of the Litani river, consistent with 1701. We should not move away from 1701 until we have made progress under it. I recognise the force of what the right hon. Gentleman says about the concerns about Hezbollah’s presence close to the Israeli border, in breach of UN Security Council resolutions. I condemn the attacks, including the missile strikes that have been happening since 8 October, and all the other violence that Lebanese Hezbollah has been responsible for. It is proscribed under UK law and we hold no truck with it, but the way to get Hezbollah away from the border is 1701, and that is what we have to stick to.
Monica Harding (Esher and Walton) (LD)
Finn Pugh, who is eight years old and is one of my constituents, wrote to me. He said:
“Lebanon is a wonderful place. It does not deserve this. I would like the Government to protect the people of Lebanon and give them supplies like food and water.”
What reassurances can the Minister give Finn?
Hamish Falconer
I thank Finn for the question. Over the course of the past few weeks, we have announced £15 million of aid for the people affected by the strikes in Lebanon and those who are now crossing towards Syria, which is a concerning development in the conflict. Finn is right to have the people of Lebanon in his mind, and we are doing all we can to try to ensure that the humanitarian system in Lebanon can support the people Finn is concerned about.
Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)
The new Government’s call for an immediate ceasefire in Lebanon and in Gaza is, of course, greatly welcomed. However, today we hear that one of UNIFIL’s watchtowers was bombed by the Israel Defence Forces. First, was that one of the watchtowers that we have provided? Secondly, what conversations has the Minister had with his colleagues about beefing up our support to UNIFIL and taking our troop numbers up from one?
Hamish Falconer
I will have to write to my right hon. Friend about the specific watchtower and whether we have provided any aid. Underlying her point, I think, is a question about what we do when our statements about UNIFIL are not abided by. Let me be clear with the House: the current situation is unsustainable, and we continue to raise the matter through all diplomatic measures and will do so until there is progress. I can perhaps write to my right hon. Friend about our future plans regarding peacekeepers in Lebanon.
Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
There is only one route to sustained peace in Lebanon, and that is for the UN and the Lebanese state to stop Hezbollah carrying out its operations. That’s right, isn’t it?
Hamish Falconer
We agree that Lebanese Hezbollah should not be conducting the actions that it has been conducting. As I said in response to the previous question, this situation needs to be resolved in accordance with the UN Security Council resolutions. If the right hon. Gentleman is asking me whether we think what Lebanese Hezbollah is doing across the blue line is correct or justifiable, my answer is that it is not. We call on it, as we have always called on it, to stop. We have proscribed the organisation domestically and have absolutely no truck with it whatsoever. Iran’s malign influence in Lebanon must stop, and we are taking actions to try to effect that.
Peter Prinsley (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket) (Lab)
The Minister for Development (Anneliese Dodds)
Over the last four months, we have been reconnecting Britain for our security and prosperity. Last week I set out my vision for modernising international development, and as I speak the Foreign Secretary is in Samoa, meeting Heads of Government from the Commonwealth, and he has engaged with countries from every continent.
Peter Prinsley
The BBC World Service is vital UK soft power. The Foreign Office’s contribution to its funding is about £100 million per year—about the cost of an F-35 fighter jet. The UK has plans to acquire 74 of these fighter jets. Would the Minister agree that we might consider acquiring only 73 of them, if that was the price of preserving the BBC World Service?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Hamish Falconer)
That is a very fine question. The BBC World Service is a UK soft power asset. We give £104 million to the BBC World Service—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. Would the hon. Member for Plymouth Moor View (Fred Thomas) please not walk behind the Minister while he is in the middle of his answer? I am really going to have to say something to the Whips.
Hamish Falconer
We provide £104 million to the BBC World Service. That is very good value indeed. I will not seek to get into budget negotiations in advance of the Budget—I know better than that—but I agree very much about the importance of the World Service and the vital function it provides internationally.
Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con)
Recent events in Moldova are yet another example of the importance of combating the modern scourge of weaponising disinformation. What new measures are the Government planning to implement to counter disinformation spread by our adversaries?
Anneliese Dodds
I am grateful to the shadow Foreign Secretary for raising such an important issue. We are launching a new global programme to support resilient, free, open and trustworthy independent media as a bulwark against disinformation. That builds on the success of previous media development programmes. We are also determined to work with international partners, including UNESCO, to make sure that we play a role in combating disinformation.
Mr Mitchell
Further to the comment from the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket (Peter Prinsley), does the Minister share my dismay that, although the director general of the BBC professes that it represents a key source of democratic soft power in the face of the spread of state and non-state disinformation, it now intends to cancel its internationally admired interview programme “HARDtalk”, which has a global reputation for holding those in power to account?
Anneliese Dodds
Any editorial decisions on BBC content will be made by the BBC alone—that is right and proper. All I can say is that wherever I am in the world, it is clear quite how powerful the BBC is—a soft power perhaps, but a very important reflection of our values as a country and of deep connections between the people of Britain and other nations. We are determined to ensure that that remains the case.
David Taylor (Hemel Hempstead) (Lab)
Anneliese Dodds
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this issue. I would be very happy to meet him and other Members, particularly from the Government Benches, where we have a considerable number of MPs with direct experience of international development work. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is committed to bringing order to the asylum system. She has taken steps to unblock the backlog of claims. The fact that we lacked a plan to do that previously led to spiralling costs, which hit the international development budget very hard.
Mr Speaker
Order. I have to get through the list of questions, and you are not helping me. You are taking far too long. I have to get the Back Benchers in—it matters to them and to their constituents. You have to work with me, and today has been a pretty awful day all round. I call the Lib Dem spokesperson to give us a good example.
Calum Miller (Bicester and Woodstock) (LD)
Laila Soueif is in the Gallery with us today. She is currently on hunger strike in protest against the continued imprisonment of her son, the British-Egyptian citizen Alaa Abd el-Fattah, in Egypt despite the end of his five-year sentence on 29 September. In 2022, the then shadow Foreign Secretary talked about serious diplomatic consequences for Egypt failing to release Alaa, and of leveraging our trading partnership with Egypt to progress the case. Does the Minister agree with the now Foreign Secretary on those points, and will the Government take steps—
Hamish Falconer
I welcome Laila to the House. I saw her in Cairo last week, and raised these issues with the Egyptian Foreign Minister. Alaa’s case is very much in our mind, and we will do everything we can to secure his release as quickly as we can.
Jon Pearce (High Peak) (Lab)
Hamish Falconer
My hon. Friend asks an important question. Peace building at a civil society level has an important role to play in trying to resolve this conflict. I will write to him with details of our plans.
Ellie Chowns (North Herefordshire) (Green)
Anneliese Dodds
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for a very important question. The UK Government could not have been clearer that climate and nature must be at the heart of all that we do, including in foreign and development policy. The Foreign Secretary underlined that at Kew, and I underlined that in the Chatham House speech that I gave last week.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
Order. Members who are on the list do not need to stand. It is more confusing.
Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) (Lab)
Anneliese Dodds
The amount of unexploded remnants of war throughout Gaza poses a serious threat to life and the provision of humanitarian assistance. The UK is working proactively with a number of key stakeholders. We very much recognise the expertise of the HALO Trust, and we will redouble the work done, particularly towards reconstruction.
Mr Richard Holden (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
Hamish Falconer
I referred to our actions against Iran in the region, and the importance of removing its influence in Lebanon as best we can. This week I will attend the Lebanon conference in Paris, where these matters will be discussed.
Adam Thompson (Erewash) (Lab)
Anneliese Dodds
My hon. Friend raises an incredibly important point. It is critical that the UK can speak with credibility on these issues—and now, under the new UK Government, we can, given the creation of GB Energy and the other measures that we have taken. We are ensuring that climate leadership is always to the fore, including in the conferences of the parties. Of course, the COP nature summit in Colombia is fast approaching.
Mr Tom Morrison (Cheadle) (LD)
Anneliese Dodds
The hon. Gentleman raises an incredibly important question. Many displaced people have very few of the clothes and belongings that they desperately need, particularly given that the threat of winter and much worse weather is coming speedily down the track. The Government have been discussing the issue with many of our partners.
Steve Yemm (Mansfield) (Lab)
Hamish Falconer
I refer my hon. Friend to my previous answer. I will also write to him with further details of what we will do.
David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale) (Con)
We are experiencing a global hunger crisis, exacerbated by ongoing conflicts and climate change. That makes the forthcoming Paris Nutrition for Growth conference even more important. What preparations are the Government making for an effective contribution to the summit?
Anneliese Dodds
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to raise that point. We are preparing at pace for that Paris conference, which is incredibly important. We need to do all we can to secure access to the food required, and it must be nutritious, healthy food. In addition, the UK is preparing to sign up to the Global Alliance Against Hunger and Poverty—something that I committed the UK to doing in Brazil just a few weeks ago.
James Naish (Rushcliffe) (Lab)
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Stephen Doughty)
The Government are committed to working more closely with partners across Europe, including Albania and partners across the western Balkans, to tackle people trafficking and the gangs profiting from it. That has been a regular part of my bilateral discussions. In July, we announced steps to reinforce our co-operation with Europol and committed £4 million towards the Rome process—an Italian Government project to tackle the root causes of irregular migration.
Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)
What discussions have Ministers had with their Israeli counterparts about the application of distinction and proportionality in international humanitarian law?
Hamish Falconer
The Foreign Secretary has set out our views on the Israeli application of international humanitarian law at greatest length in relation to the decision to suspend arms licences. We keep those issues under regular review and will update the House if there is a change in our assessment.
Imran Hussain (Bradford East) (Ind)
As we have heard again today in the Chamber, war crimes in Gaza continue, making it clear that the time for empty promises and hollow words is over. Does the Minister agree that the international community must finally fulfil its responsibility and take real action, starting with immediate sanctions on the hard-right extreme Ministers in the Netanyahu Government?
Hamish Falconer
I hope Members recognise that the words that we have been speaking at this Dispatch Box have not been hollow. Since coming into government, we have restored funding to UNRWA. We have also taken steps in the International Criminal Court and the International Court of Justice, and in relation to the arms suspension that I referred to a moment ago. As for the far-right settlers to whom I think my hon. Friend was referring, we introduced sanctions last Thursday. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made it clear during Prime Minister’s questions that we continue to review these issues, and we will return to the House.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
The outgoing President of the United States has indicated that he has been told where and when the Israeli Government will respond to the Iranian terror threat. Have our Government been informed?
Hamish Falconer
I think that you, Mr Speaker, and other Members will understand that it is not appropriate to comment on that in the House.
Naz Shah (Bradford West) (Lab)
As the Minister will know, the ICJ has ruled that member states such as the UK are obliged to distinguish in their dealings between green-line Israel and occupied territory. In line with that ruling, as well as obligations under United Nations Security Council resolution 2334, what steps are the Government taking to address the issue of products entering the UK from illegal settlements?
Hamish Falconer
I will write to my hon. Friend about the complex issue of trade with Israel and how we make that distinction, if that is okay.
Mr Will Forster (Woking) (LD)
I am sure that the Minister is aware of the tragic case of Sara Sharif, which occurred in my constituency, but he may not be aware that when Sara’s family fled from Woking to Pakistan, they took Sara’s two siblings, and when the parents returned to stand trial, those siblings did not return with them. Will he write to the Pakistani Government informing them that unless they vouch for the siblings’ safety, those children should be returned to the UK?
Hamish Falconer
I can assure the House that the safety and wellbeing of British children overseas, which appears to be relevant in this case, is of the utmost concern to the Government as a whole, and to me as the Minister responsible for consular affairs. I will write, and will meet the hon. Member, if that will be useful in helping us to understand the case and what we can best do to support those children.
Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab)
Even before the start of the current conflict in Gaza, 98,000 children there had a disability. Thousands more have now been horrifically injured, and those with long-term conditions have not received any medical support. While I welcome the Government’s commitment to facilitating medical evacuations, how is that possible when Israel is controlling the Rafah crossing?
Anneliese Dodds
My hon. Friend has detailed knowledge of this issue through her work on the International Development Committee. We are of course determined to do all that we can for the wellbeing and safety of children in Gaza, in partnership with other countries. She raises the issue of healthcare; we have been supporting UK-Med and other organisations in that regard, and also in respect of education. Many children have been out of school for a year, and we are determined to rectify the situation.
Sarah Green (Chesham and Amersham) (LD)
Will the Minister update the House on the grim situation in Sudan? In particular, what pressure is being put on regional actors to stop fuelling the crisis, and what is the UK doing to help the 16 million children who, according to an estimate from Save the Children, face severe food shortages right now?
Anneliese Dodds
The humanitarian crisis in Sudan is the worst in the world. Millions of people face food insecurity, and disturbingly, it has now been verified that there is famine in the Zamzam refugee camp. We in the UK will continue to do all that we can, for instance in our role as a penholder. We will work with partners to raise the profile of this situation and make it clear to the warring parties that they must allow access to aid.
Ukraine
(2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)
With your permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a statement on Ukraine. I apologise for the delay in getting you and Opposition Front Benchers a copy of my statement; the responsibility is entirely mine.
I have just returned from three days of intense defence diplomacy—first, at the NATO Defence Ministers meeting in Brussels, where we welcomed President Zelensky, and then at the G7 Defence Ministers meeting in Naples, where we had important updates from the battlefield, agreed that this is a critical point in the conflict, and stressed the need to step up and speed up support for Ukraine. The G7 joint declaration strongly condemned Putin’s illegal invasion and reinforced our unwavering support for Ukraine. It also rightly stated that
“Russia’s aggression against Ukraine is posing a threat to international security, the purposes and principles of the UN Charter, and the rules-based international order.”
That is what is at stake for us all. If President Putin prevails in Ukraine, he will not stop there. If big nations redraw international boundaries by force, the sovereignty and security of all nations is undermined. That is why the UK’s military, economic, industrial and diplomatic support, alongside that of our allies, is so important.
I have returned to the UK knowing that NATO and the G7 are united for Ukraine, just as the UK is united for Ukraine. Our job now is to turn the talks into action, which is exactly what the Government are doing. Today, the Chancellor and I are announcing that the UK will provide an additional £2.26 billion to Ukraine. This is new money, which will be delivered under the extraordinary revenue acceleration loans to Ukraine scheme. It is part of the $50 billion loan package from G7 countries to support Ukraine’s military, budget and reconstruction needs—loans that will be repaid using the profits generated from immobilised Russian sovereign assets. Profits on frozen Russian money will support Ukraine’s fight against Putin, turning the proceeds of Putin’s corrupt regime against it and putting them in the hands of Ukrainians.
I want to be clear: today’s new money is in addition to the £3 billion a year of military support that this Government have committed to Ukraine each year for as long as it takes. The money is in addition to that in the £3.5 billion defence industrial support treaty that I signed with Defence Minister Umerov in July; that is money that Ukraine will use to procure military equipment from British companies, boosting British jobs and British industry. Today’s new money is also in addition to the extra artillery, air defences, ammunition and missiles that we have announced and delivered in the first four months of this new Government. Ukraine is a first-order priority for me as Defence Secretary, and for this Government. We will continue to step up support, to lead, and to stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes.
It is 973 days since Putin launched his full-scale illegal invasion, and Ukraine’s civilians and military alike have been fighting with great courage. There have been important battlefield developments in recent weeks. When I last updated the House, Ukrainian forces were one month into their remarkable offensive in Kursk. Three months on, they continue to hold Russian territory. Ukraine’s strategic surprise has put Putin under pressure, forcing the diversion of some Russian troops and equipment. Despite the increase in brutal Russian counter-attacks and aerial bombardments, they have so far failed to dislodge the Ukrainian incursion.
It is not just in Kursk that Ukraine is fighting back. Ukrainian forces have launched long-range attacks into Russian territory and on military targets that are directly supporting Putin’s illegal invasion. In September, Ukraine used long-range drones to attack four ammunition storage facilities—strikes that successfully destroyed thousands of tonnes of ammunition—and both the defensive thrust into Kursk and the strategic defensive strikes into Russia have had an impact on the battlefield. Russia’s advance towards Pokrovsk in the east—Putin’s main line of effort —has been slowed.
Russian losses continue to rise. Since the start of the conflict, Russia is likely to have suffered 675,000 casualties. In September, the average casualty rate of Russians on the battlefield in Ukraine each day was 1,271—a record high, two and a half times the rate this time last year. As for equipment, Russia has now lost 3,400 tanks and 8,500 armoured vehicles, and 26 vessels in the Black sea fleet have been destroyed or damaged.
Despite the incredible resilience of the Ukrainians, they remain under great pressure from Russian forces across multiple fronts. Russian troops continue to advance and to attack Ukrainian infrastructure, targeting the important port of Odesa and striking energy infrastructure. As we head into winter, Ukraine’s energy generation capacity has been reduced by up to two thirds of pre-war levels. Russian industry remains on a war footing. Russian artillery is outfiring Ukraine by at least three to one, and Russia is recruiting an additional 400,000 troops this year. Defence will account for 32%—one third—of the total Government budget in Russia next year.
In a concerning new development, it is now highly likely that the transfer of hundreds of combat troops from North Korea to Russia has begun. For North Korean soldiers to support Russia’s war of aggression on European soil is as shocking as it is desperate. North Korea already sends significant munitions and arms to Russia, in direct violation of multiple UN resolutions. The developing military co-operation between Russia and the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea has serious security implications for Europe and the Indo-Pacific. It represents a wider growing alliance of aggression that NATO and the G7 nations must confront.
Despite this dangerous development, Ukraine remains determined to fight on its frontline in the east and in the territory in Kursk, and President Zelensky will continue to seek support for his victory plan. We want the plan to succeed, and we stand ready to work closely with the Ukrainians and allies to help it to do so. As we approach 1,000 days of this war, the conflict is at a critical moment, which is why the UK continues to step up its support for Ukraine. Ukrainians are fighting to regain their sovereign territory and to protect peace, democracy and security for the rest of us in Europe.
James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)
I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement. I offer my condolences and those of Opposition Members to the family and friends of Corporal Christopher Gill, who we understand tragically lost his life during a training exercise recently. We understand that he served his country for 13 years, including in Afghanistan, and more recently volunteered to train Ukrainian soldiers in the UK.
Having visited Salisbury plain last May to see Operation Interflex, I know that we should be grateful to all our service personnel, including Corporal Gill, who have played such a huge role in training the Ukrainian armed forces so that they can continue to fight and defend their homeland. That fight goes on, and we continue to offer all support to the Government for that, as well as standing by the Government, people and armed forces of Ukraine.
We therefore warmly welcome the G7 joint declaration and funding announcement, but we share the Government’s concerns in relation to North Korea. I have lost count of the many times that Vladimir Putin has accused us and our allies of so-called escalatory action in our support for Ukraine, but today we are considering the very real threat of North Korean combat troops being sent to support Russia’s illegal invasion. Let us be in no doubt: any potential agreement between Putin and Kim Jong-un to have North Korean boots on the ground in Ukraine at all—let alone in the numbers that have been reported—would be a major escalatory ratchet by Putin himself.
After all, as the Secretary of State confirmed, Russia has already procured munitions and ballistic missiles from North Korea. The transfer of those weapons in the first place was not only completely unacceptable, but a blatant violation of the UN sanctions that Russia itself voted for. The transfer of North Korean weapons and now the threat of combat troops show weakness and desperation, not strength, on Putin’s part, as the Secretary of State said. Above all, this raises the question of what Putin is offering North Korea in return, but we should not be deterred and must respond.
We took decisive countermeasures to help constrain the transfer of weapons between North Korea and Russia. The Conservative Government imposed sanctions on the arms-for-oil trade between Russia and North Korea, including asset freezes, travel bans and transport sanctions. The new Government, in turn, must now respond to this latest threat of combat troops. Can I press the Secretary of State to look at how the UK should respond in the round? Yes, we need to look at the diplomatic tools we can use to disrupt co-operation between North Korea and Russia, but we also need to urgently look again both at our military aid to Ukraine and at the freedom we offer it to use the munitions that we supply, particularly long-range missiles.
Given the need to continue providing further capability to Ukraine, we welcome yesterday’s announcement that the UK will contribute £2.26 billion to the G7 extraordinary revenue acceleration loan scheme for Ukraine. The Conservative Government were a vocal advocate for mobilising frozen Russian assets to support Ukraine. We strongly welcome the additional funding. When will the money be made available to Ukraine, and over what term? The sooner those funds are mobilised, the better. When exactly will Ukraine receive the funding?
Finally, we have spoken many times of the reality that we are facing not just Russian aggression, but a broader authoritarian axis that ultimately threatens the UK. We have seen that explicitly with Iran and the Red sea, and now we see it coming ever closer to home with the prospect of North Korean troops deploying in a European theatre of war. Surely that strengthens even further the argument that the Government need to deliver on their supposed cast-iron guarantee to spend 2.5% on defence. As the Secretary of State failed to answer me at Defence orals, can I once again press him to confirm that he is fighting hard, with the Treasury, to deliver a clear pathway to 2.5% in the Budget at the end of this month?
John Healey
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his comments about Corporal Gill. I will pass them on to his widow and make sure that his family are aware of them and of the sentiments of the whole House. The hon. Gentleman is right about the enormous contribution that Corporal Gill made, including to the Interflex training programme, which I was proud to be able to commit to extending throughout 2025. The Chancellor and I visited the programme together on Sunday; we met Colonel Boardman, the commander of Operation Interflex, and the officers and soldiers of 3 Scots, together with instructors from Kosovo, Australia and Sweden, illustrating the way the UK is leading a multinational effort to support Ukrainian soldiers.
The hon. Gentleman is right and I suspect that there is unanimity in the House on concern about the developments in Russia and the growing alliance with North Korea, and that it is united in its determination to take the action required to respond and united in recognising that we must do so alongside NATO and other G7 allies.
The hon. Gentleman asked about the new loan funds available for Ukraine through the proceeds of the interest on frozen Russian assets. We expect those to be available and in Ukraine’s hands from early in the new year, which will put the UK ahead of many other nations participating in the scheme.
On the hon. Gentleman’s final question, we remain totally committed to spending 2.5% on defence. We must do this to meet the threats that this country faces. The Prime Minister confirmed the commitment to set out a clear path to 2.5% in our first week in Government at the NATO summit in Washington. I gently say again to the hon. Gentleman that the last time this country spent 2.5% on defence was in 2010 under a Labour Government, and that that level was never matched in any of the 14 Conservative years since.
Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)
I welcome the announcement today of the UK’s increased support for funding for Ukraine as part of the extraordinary revenue acceleration loan scheme. The Secretary of State spoke about what is at stake for us all, but can he say more about what discussions he had with his counterparts at the NATO Defence Ministers meeting about the need for them to substantially increase their support? Further to our Prime Minister’s recent meeting with the US President, what update is there on the use of Storm Shadow missiles by Ukraine?
John Healey
I welcome the new Chair of the Select Committee, who I believe now has a Committee to chair. I look forward to an invitation to give evidence and to discuss these issues with the Committee soon.
At the NATO Defence Ministers meeting, there was unanimity among the 32 nations that the important commitments that NATO nations made in Washington, particularly to the $40 billion of extra support for Ukraine, must be delivered. There was a recognition, too, that pledges made must be pledges delivered. One of the Ukrainians’ striking concerns is that just a third of the equipment and support pledged has so far been delivered, so there was a determination to step up not just what we can provide, but how quickly we can provide it. That is something that as a new Government we did from day one.
On Storm Shadow, only Putin benefits from a discussion about this. There is no single weapon that has turned the tide of any war. Whether it is artillery, ammunition, armoured vehicles or missiles, the UK provides support to Ukraine to pursue its UN right to defend its territory and its people.
Helen Maguire (Epsom and Ewell) (LD)
I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement. Liberal Democrats welcome the new measures announced today to use the profits of frozen assets for Ukraine. That £2 billion will be of immense value to our Ukrainian allies as they seek to repel Putin’s illegal invasion, not least following the alarming news that 1,500 North Korean troops are currently being trained in Russia to fight in Ukraine, but we must go further, faster. Russia must not and cannot succeed.
Some £22 billion in frozen assets remains locked up in our country. We urge the Government, as we have done for years, to seize those assets and repurpose them for Ukraine right away. Will the Secretary of State commit to doing so? Is he having conversations with our democratic partners to that effect? With the US elections fast approaching, it is deeply worrying that our commitment to our Ukrainian allies is uncertain. A second Trump presidency could have a devastating effect on the security of Europe and of Ukraine, so we urge the Government to seize these assets now so that we can support Ukraine come what may.
We must lead with Europe on this. The EU countries between them have close to €20 billion-worth of frozen assets. Will the Secretary of State consider convening an urgent summit with European counterparts to begin that process? Does he agree that if the US cannot, Europe must?
John Healey
In fairness to the Conservatives when they were in government, and to the hon. Lady’s party before the election, we were all united in the efforts to get the interest drawn down from the frozen Russian assets put into Ukrainian hands. The UK Government, before the last election and since, have been leading this work.
These are practical steps that we can take now. Whatever declaratory position the hon. Lady wants to adopt about seizing Russian assets, this is valuable additional funding that, from the new year, will be in the hands of the Ukrainian Government to spend on, in the UK’s case, the military aid that they need. That comes in addition to all the other increases that we have put in place since the election. I hope that despite the hon. Lady’s calls for going very much further, she will recognise how significant this move is and recognise that the UK is among the first of the nations to move on this. I hope she will give this House her full support when we introduce the primary legislation that will seek the parliamentary spending authority to provide this financial assistance in pursuance of a bilateral agreement that we will strike with Ukraine over how to do it.
Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab)
When this Government said that our support for Ukraine was absolute, we meant it. My right hon. Friend referred to the recently signed defence export treaty between the UK and Ukraine, which will support Ukraine’s defence industrial base while helping to replenish our own stockpiles. As far as he is able, will he update the House on the treaty’s progress?
John Healey
I was proud to sign that treaty, which means that Ukraine can draw down the export credit cover and contract with UK companies. It is also a framework that, like some other frameworks the UK has put in place, other nations and their companies can use to deal with the difficulties that many face in contracting with Ukraine. The Ukrainians will use it for contracting and procuring munitions and ammunition. It will allow us to step up not just the provision but the production of essential military aid to Ukraine.
Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)
I welcome the statement, but the BBC reports that the money will be paid not in one go but in tranches over time. We have the Budget next week. Will the Secretary of State assure us that, given that the money is what accountants would call an “exceptional item”, it will in no way be included in the overall defence budget next week, or attempt to bolster or bump that up? There are rumours of cuts, so will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that the money is a one-off that will be treated completely differently in the Red Book?
John Healey
I can give the right hon. Gentleman that assurance. The money is a one-off. It is additional and separate, and it will be accounted for and set out separately in the Treasury documentation. Its significance is that it is a loan to Ukraine that Ukraine will not have to pay back, because it will be serviced by the interest on the frozen Russians assets. He asks whether the sum will be paid all in one go. It will be made available soon in the new year, and the Ukrainians will be able to draw it down as they need it for the purposes that they determine.
Derek Twigg (Widnes and Halewood) (Lab)
I welcome my right hon. Friend’s comments about North Korea and the growing alliance of aggression that needs to be confronted. I hope that we will have a strong response to that. I also welcome the extra £2.26 billion. My right hon. Friend made the important point—one of many—that the Ukrainians are being outgunned three to one in artillery by the Russians. Although the additional support is vital, how quickly can we ensure that we get extra munitions, artillery and missiles from the alliance and the G7 to Ukraine?
John Healey
We can get that into the hands of Ukrainians as soon as it is available for that purpose. I announced the new contract to produce short-range air defence missiles, the LMMs—lightweight multirole missiles—in the UK. The initial contract is for 650 and they will be in the hands of Ukrainians from the beginning of next year. We hope to step that up during the course of 2025. Where other nations are ready to make available the weaponry that Ukrainians need, the established arrangements for getting it into the hands of Ukrainians are in place. It is a question not of how, but of how quickly.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
The delicious irony of the interest on Kremlin kleptocrats’ ill-gotten gains being used to fund the resistance against Russian aggression will not be lost on Members across the House. I welcome what the Defence Secretary has said in its entirety. He will know better than any of us the crucial importance of the NATO alliance machinery in assisting Ukrainian resistance. Given that one recent former American President and one current French President have both made disobliging remarks about the NATO alliance in the fairly recent past, will the Secretary of State reassure us that at least President Macron is now fully on board with the alliance and France’s important contribution to it?
John Healey
I will indeed. At no point during the two days of NATO Defence Ministers’ talks was there any indication of the sort of views that the right hon. Gentleman suggests that some in America may hold, or that President Macron might have previously expressed. Indeed, in the good bilateral meeting that I had with the French Minister for the Armed Forces, Sébastien Lecornu, it was clear that the French commitment to supporting Ukraine is as strong as the UK’s. I am glad to say that the determination of the French to work more closely with us on security and defence is equally strong.
Mr Calvin Bailey (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
I welcome the statement and the announcement of further funding. To ensure that we sustain the pace with which we are providing aid to Ukraine, and that we energise our own logistical enterprise, what action is my right hon. Friend taking to boost UK defence industrial production to support the Ukrainian armed forces and defence supply chains throughout the UK?
John Healey
My hon. Friend knows this territory as well as anybody else in the House. He will know that over the 973 days the UK Government have changed fundamentally the way in which we go about procuring what is required. British industry has responded magnificently to that. It has been able to respond more quickly, innovate more rapidly and devise what it can produce to meet the needs that Ukraine says it has on the frontline. The UK Government’s task is to be the middle man to ensure that that can happen at greater volume and speed. We will continue to do that.
Mike Martin (Tunbridge Wells) (LD)
Do the Government think that Ukraine is winning or losing?
John Healey
I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman was listening to my statement, but I made it clear that this is a critical period in the conflict. Ukraine is under huge pressure, especially on the eastern front, but it is fighting, conducting a counter-offensive and putting Putin under pressure. The only conclusion that the 32 nations drew from the discussions in Brussels, confirmed by the G7 nations in Naples, was that now is the moment when Ukraine’s allies must step up our support, put Ukraine in the strongest possible position to withstand the Russian onslaught and put pressure on Putin—a military, economic and diplomatic response.
Cat Eccles (Stourbridge) (Lab)
I welcome the statement, which is good news for Ukraine. Does my right hon. Friend agree that Ukraine is the frontier of war with the Kremlin, that international support is now more critical than ever and that we must be absolutely clear that defence of the UK begins in Ukraine?
John Healey
My hon. Friend is right. Her very words were spoken by several Defence Ministers in Brussels. Defence of the UK and of Europe starts in Ukraine. Ukraine is fighting for the same values and for the rest of us in Europe.
Sir Roger Gale (Herne Bay and Sandwich) (Con)
In sharp contrast to the presence of the United Nations Secretary-General at Putin’s summit in Russia, which sent out all the wrong signals, this statement is hugely welcome, so I thank the Secretary of State. Further to the question that the Chairman of the Defence Committee asked, is it not now time that not only Storm Shadow but all the matériel supplied to Ukraine by the western alliance should be used by Ukraine in the manner that it sees fit?
John Healey
We provide Ukraine with the weaponry and support to defend its country, freedom and people. There is a consistency in that and there is no bar to Ukraine striking Russian military targets, so long as that is consistent with international humanitarian law and part of the proper defence of the country. I spoke about the long-range drones and the successful attacks they have been making—defensive attacks, but nevertheless on military targets in Russia. It is for the Ukrainians to determine how best to defend their country, and we will support them in whatever ways we can.
Fred Thomas (Plymouth Moor View) (Lab)
I warmly welcome the £2.26 billion of aid announced today. It is great news for those fighting for democracy in Europe and a day of low morale in the Kremlin—it is fantastic. The Ukrainians might well use some of the money to continue to innovate at pace. Every few weeks they create new cutting-edge and adaptive technologies to use in the fight against Putin. Will we learn from our friends in Ukraine and ensure that we, as a country, invest in our own small and medium-sized defence enterprises, so that we can have the same output in the future?
John Healey
While there has been no change in the basis on which we provide military aid to Ukraine, there is a change in the approach we take not just to providing aid but to producing some of the military equipment and ammunition. Our challenge now is to take the lessons of what we have demonstrated can be done to support Ukraine to equip our own forces better to fight in the future.
Dave Doogan (Angus and Perthshire Glens) (SNP)
I thank the Secretary of State for his statement, its content and for advance sight of it. The additional funding for Ukraine is very welcome, but it is what matériel they turn the funding into that will have the effect on the battlefield that we wish to see. With the shell production of European partners still well short of a million units per year, will the Secretary of State indicate how UK shell production has grown, either in numeric or percentage terms? If he cannot share that with the House, will he give us an assurance that it is increasing?
John Healey
I can absolutely assure the hon. Member that it is increasing. I have already spoken about the production of short-range air defence missiles—the LMMs—which is increasing to meet what the Ukrainians need. The Ukrainians are clear that air defence systems and long-range drones are the things that matter most to their defence and to their ability to put Russia properly under pressure.
Johanna Baxter (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
I warmly welcome today’s announcement of an additional £2.2 billion in financial support for Ukraine, generated by frozen Russian assets. Will my right hon. Friend say a little more about the concerning development of North Korean soldiers supporting Russia’s war of aggression on European soil, and how that underlines the importance of us using every tool in our box to support Ukraine’s efforts?
John Healey
I regret to say to my hon. Friend that I am not in a position to give the House any more details about that. Suffice it to say, we are watching and monitoring this extremely closely. We and the House have detected a growing co-operation between North Korea and Russia, and between Iran and Russia, at least over the past 12 months. It is a sign not of strength but weakness on Putin’s part, but it introduces a dangerous new development, both for Ukraine and for wider European security.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
I welcome the Defence Secretary’s recognition of President Zelensky’s victory plan and his support for that, but he will know that part of that plan is the use of long-range missiles. I get his point about long-range UK drones being used only for military targets in Russia, and within the norms of international rules of law, but I detect, perhaps, from his answers to two questions on long-range missiles that he is edging towards a position where he might publicly declare that Ukraine can have the freedom to hit military targets in Russia using long-range missiles. That will change the war and have an impact.
John Healey
We have stepped up the support we provide to Ukraine, but there has been no change in the basis on which we provide that support to Ukraine.
Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)
I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement and his clear personal commitment. It is very expensive for Putin to fight this war, but he is getting a lot of money from the sale of oil. There are real concerns that British firms, or firms with British connections, are facilitating and enabling the illegal oil trade. What more can be done, in co-operation with the Foreign Secretary, to ensure that sanctions are more effective against the Russian oil trade?
John Healey
My hon. Friend is right. It is not just that we can confirm today that we are making the additional loan money available to the Ukrainians; it is also important to remember that the sanctions themselves are responsible for freezing at least $400 billion that Russia would otherwise be able to use to feed its war machine. The UK Government and others have taken steps on the shadow fleet—the shipping in the grey zone, trying to avoid sanctions—but wherever we have the evidence required to act and sanction, we will do that and we will continue to do that.
Suella Braverman (Fareham and Waterlooville) (Con)
Not only is a full battalion of North Korean soldiers set to be deployed to assist Russia in Ukraine, but Putin is benefiting from components and weapons provided by the Iranians and the Chinese. This all represents an unprecedented conflation of threats to global security. I echo the question asked by hon. Friend the shadow Defence Secretary: the commitment to invest 2.5% of GDP is right, but when will that be backed up with action?
John Healey
The right hon. Lady is right. We totally condemn North Korea’s involvement and support for Russia, from arms transfer to any further developments. As I said in my statement, that is in breach of multiple UN resolutions and we continue to watch the situation.
Phil Brickell (Bolton West) (Lab)
Will the Secretary of State join me in paying tribute to the UK armed forces who are providing vital support to our Ukrainian allies, and to the Ukrainian armed forces who are fighting valiantly against Putin’s unlawful invasion of Ukraine?
John Healey
I will indeed. I have had the privilege of visiting Interflex training courses four times now, I think. I visited the second ever course at Salisbury plain. It is deeply moving to see the level of commitment of British forces to the task of training the Ukrainians, and to spend time with those Ukrainian recruits. They are lorry drivers, bank clerks, PR executives of all ages, who have volunteered to fight for their country and their freedom. They are trained by British forces, now with those from other countries alongside them, who are equipping them to be able to fight for their country. Knowing that they will soon return to the frontline in their own nation is deeply sobering.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
I very much welcome this £2.26 billion, but has the Defence Secretary had the opportunity to study the National Audit Office report published last month into the impact of our operations in Ukraine, particularly Operation Interflex, on the availability of the defence estate for the training of units of the British Army? While that is acceptable in the short term, in the long term it probably is not. What impact assessment has he carried out, and what proposals does he have to make available the defence estate we need to train British soldiers?
John Healey
Nothing will shake our commitment to continuing the Interflex training programme. We are determined and we will continue that throughout 2025. Many of the partner countries that have been alongside us this year have already committed to doing that again next year. The right hon. Member asked me about Interflex, the defence estate and the training of Ukrainian soldiers. That will continue. On the National Audit Office report, I have indeed read that report. It is a welcome change from the normal run of National Audit Office reports into the Ministry of Defence that we have been used to in recent years. It praises a good deal of what has been done by the Ministry of Defence in support of Ukraine, and it is very welcome.
Graeme Downie (Dunfermline and Dollar) (Lab)
I thank the Secretary of State for his very welcome statement. He mentioned the importance of the Ukrainian forces’ efforts in the Black sea against the Russian Black Sea Fleet and how important that is to the Ukrainian economy. Could he go a little further and describe how this funding for Ukraine will help to ensure that security and perhaps go even further in the Black Sea?
John Healey
The principle behind this funding is that we put it in the hands of the Ukrainians. The Ukrainians are in the best position—and must be in the position—to decide how best to use it. We have said that they can use it entirely on military support if they choose to do so; the support that they choose to procure with it will be a matter for them, in discussion with us.
David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale) (Con)
Is the Defence Secretary able to share with us any conversations that the Foreign Secretary had while in China about China’s engagement in this situation, and particularly its willingness to bring to bear the influence that it undoubtedly has on both Russia and North Korea?
John Healey
Happily, I can indeed. The Foreign Secretary was in China on 18 and 19 October. He met his counterpart, the Foreign Minister, and talked about the areas on which our countries may disagree, including on Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine. He also raised the UK’s concerns over China’s supply of equipment to Russia and to Russia’s military industrial complex.
Kevin Bonavia (Stevenage) (Lab)
I, too, very much welcome today’s statement from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. It provides evidence not just of warm words, but of real practical support for our ally in its desperate hour of need. But this country cannot do this on its own. Can he update the House on any discussions that he or his ministerial colleagues have had with our friends in the rest of the G7 on combating Putin through economic measures?
John Healey
I can indeed do so. I came away from the G7 meeting in Naples and from the meeting of NATO Defence Ministers in Brussels reinforced in my view that there is a determination not just to stand with Ukraine now, but to do so for as long as it takes. I will send my hon. Friend a copy of the communiqué from both meetings. I think he will be encouraged, as I was, by the degree of unanimity and determination not to allow Putin to believe that, if he holds out, the west will give up.
Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)
I welcome the announcement of the acceleration loan scheme. I also welcome the timing; the British Government are not simply waiting to see the outcome of the US presidential election, as some other Governments are doing. Will the Defence Secretary repeat the assurance he gave in the House last week that, regardless of US policy, military aid to Ukraine from European NATO nations will not decrease next year?
John Healey
We are determined, on the contrary, to maintain and step up the military aid required from the UK. I found a similar determination from Defence Ministers across the NATO nations. We recognise that the Ukrainians are not only mounting this fight for themselves, but waging it on behalf of us all and the values that we share with them.
Torcuil Crichton (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Lab)
I thank the Secretary of State for this additional £2.26 billion for Ukraine, which will find a strong echo from the hundreds and thousands of individuals across this country who have opened their doors to Ukrainian refugees, and in many charities and organisations such as Jeeps for Peace in Scotland, which sends direct aid by taking pick-ups across Europe to the frontline. Does this money and the individual support from Britain not show that we will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes?
John Healey
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his thanks, but those thanks should really go to the Chancellor, because the Treasury has led the work on ensuring that we can put in place this new system of loans and make this additional money available to Ukraine. He is completely right to say that part of the strength of the support that we can offer as a country to Ukraine rests on the strength of the support of the British people—the warmth they have shown from the outset for Ukrainian refugees and the determination of many groups, such as the one he cites, which have been willing to collect and, in some cases, transport support for Ukraine and its people out to the country itself. I pay tribute to their efforts.
Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)
It is concerning that we have received only the briefest of updates in this House on the direct involvement of North Korean troops, after one week of it being widely reported in the media. Last week, during Defence questions, the right hon. Gentleman gave his full-throated support for Ukraine but made no mention of the Government’s awareness of the potential deployment of North Korean reinforcements up to brigade strength. What is the Government’s current assessment of the scope of North Korean involvement, and how do overt North Korean boots on the ground in Ukraine necessitate a change in our posture?
John Healey
I have just given the House the assessment of the involvement and the extent, at present, of the involvement of North Korean troops.
Blair McDougall (East Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Given the potential of North Korean boots on the ground joining Iranian drones in the air above Ukraine, it seems clear that the calculus that Russia is operating to is very different from that of the western alliance. Does the Secretary of State agree that there is a risk that, when the fear of escalation is one-sided, that itself becomes escalatory? Therefore, while welcoming the additional support that he has announced today, I wonder whether he will join me in saying that it is time for other countries to follow the lead that the UK has shown today.
John Healey
Wherever there are signs of the breaching of UN resolutions and sanctions or of a dangerous escalation in support of Russia, we will act. We have acted before. My hon. Friend is right to point to the growing alliance between Russia and Iran and between Russia and North Korea.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Secretary of State for his statement and, indeed, for his very welcome news. Everybody in this House is incredibly pleased with the Government’s decision today.
As the US election draws closer and uncertainty grows over the level of support that will come from the US after that election, does the Secretary of State agree that Ministers or Members of this House must exercise caution when expressing an opinion on that presidential race? I ask that with great respect. Will he take the opportunity to reaffirm the strong and resilient view of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland that we should stand against Russian aggression and support those who need our help through aid, weaponry and diplomacy?
John Healey
The hon. Gentleman is right: the US elections are for the US people. As a UK Government and a UK Parliament, we will deal with whoever the American people choose to elect as their president. I am glad that he welcomes the support that the Government have stepped for up Ukraine. I say to him and to the House—I think the shadow Defence Secretary will recognise this—that it makes the job of the UK Government so much easier when there is such united support in this House for what we must do to support Ukraine for as long as it takes.
Tim Roca (Macclesfield) (Lab)
I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement. I would not expect him to comment on the US presidential election, but naturally there is a nervousness about the policy of a future US Government, which makes what European partners and allies do even more important. There is a huge disparity in the aid being provided by different partners across Europe. Denmark has been phenomenal in providing 1.86% of GDP—or more than €6 billion—and other countries such as Spain have not provided so much. Can he assure us that there were robust discussions in private among his Defence Minister colleagues in Brussels?
John Healey
Yes, I can. There were discussions, which were about the level of commitment we must make collectively to Ukraine and the level of commitment we must make collectively to NATO. I welcome the fact that this year 23 of the 32 NATO nations will meet that 2% of GDP threshold. It is a bare minimum—there is more that we need to do, particularly as European nations in NATO, in the years ahead.
Joe Powell (Kensington and Bayswater) (Lab)
I warmly thank the Secretary of State and the full ministerial team for their hard work mobilising the additional money from frozen Russian sovereign assets. I hope that other countries will follow UK leadership on this. In mobilising every tool across the Government, and with winter approaching, may I ask the Secretary of State to continue the push to realise the assets from the sale of Chelsea football club—the £2.5 billion from Roman Abramovich that could go towards humanitarian needs, which are also increasingly urgent in Ukraine?
John Healey
The Government understand the case that my hon. Friend makes. The Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty), met him last night to discuss this further.
Gordon McKee (Glasgow South) (Lab)
On a visit to Kiev with parliamentary colleagues last month, I saw at first hand the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people, who will welcome this statement. Unfortunately, Russia’s war machine continues to be powered by western-made semiconductors that are smuggled into the country. May I ask the Secretary of State what work the Government are doing to make sure that Russia does not get access to that technology?
John Healey
One of the Government’s great assets is my hon. Friend the Minister of State because of the work that he does with many other countries. Whenever discussions are required or evidence is gathered he speaks to many of the countries that may find that they have within them companies that might be involved in those supply chains. Wherever that happens, my hon. Friend is on it, and he is leading the charge to ensure that where we can identify those supply chains, we take the action that is necessary to close them down.
Alex Ballinger (Halesowen) (Lab)
I thank the Secretary of State for his very welcome statement.
As we approach 1,000 days since Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine, it is increasingly clear that Ukraine’s survival depends on the west increasing its manufacture of munitions. Can my right hon. Friend say a little more about boosting our defence industrial supply chains, including in the west midlands, where defence manufacturers are keen to contribute?
John Healey
My hon. Friend is right. The importance of the British defence industry is not just in the greater security that it gives us as a nation but as part of the economic boost that will drive growth in future. One feature I was pleased to see at the recent Government investment summit was the confirmation that defence would be one of the eight economic growth sectors that would receive priority policy focus and support as we develop that for the future. That is in the interests of Ukraine immediately, and it is in our own interests in future. It is how we can combine both the strengthening of our national security and the boost to our national economy.
Sentencing Review and Prison Capacity
(2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Shabana Mahmood)
With permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to make a statement on how the Government will address the crisis in our prisons, not just today, but for years to come.
The House has heard me recount my inheritance as Lord Chancellor before. The crisis in our prisons was, I believe, the greatest disgrace of the last Conservative Government. They left our prisons on the point of collapse—a situation that would have forced us to close the prison doors, cancel all trials and force the police to halt arrests. Crime would have gone unpunished, victims would never have seen justice done, and we would have witnessed the total breakdown of law and order. The previous Prime Minister knew he had to act. His Lord Chancellor begged him to do so, but instead he called an election.
As I announced to the House on 18 July, we had no choice but to bring forward the release point for some prisoners. Some of those serving standard determinate sentences have seen the custodial element reduced from 50% to 40%, spending the rest of their sentence on licence. They can be recalled to prison should probation staff judge that necessary to protect the public. As we saw over the summer of disorder, these releases could not come soon enough. After the August bank holiday, we were left with fewer than 100 spaces in our men’s prisons. The system was only held together by the heroic work and considerable good will of our prison and probation staff. We were, on many occasions, just one bad day from disaster.
Today, the second tranche of emergency releases takes place, creating desperately needed space in our prisons, but that is not the long-term solution. I will now set out the long-term plan for our prisons, which will ensure that never again is a Lord Chancellor placed in the invidious position that I was on taking office.
This must begin by building more prisons. For all their rhetoric, the last Conservative Government’s record on prison building was abject. They like to mention that, between 2010 and 2024, they built 13,000 places. What they are less keen to admit is that, in the same time, they closed 12,500. In 14 years, they added just 500 places to our prison capacity. In our first 100 days, this Government are already close to matching that. The previous Government promised to build 20,000 new places by the mid-2020s, but by the time they left office, they had built only 6,000. They were simply too terrified of their own Back Benchers, who supported prison building vociferously, as long as those prisons were not built anywhere near them.
This Government will build the prisons that the last Conservative Government promised but failed to deliver. In seeking a lasting solution to our prisons crisis, we must be honest, in a way that my predecessors were not. We cannot build our way out of this problem. Every year, our prison population grows by around 4,500 prisoners. This is a question of simple mathematics. To build enough prisons to meet this demand we would have to build the equivalent of HMP Birmingham—which is in my constituency of Birmingham Ladywood—four and a half times over, every single year. To put that in context, in the past 10 years, the last Conservative Government built just three prisons. While we will speed up prison building and build as fast as we can, that pace is simply impossible. For that reason, if we are to address our prisons crisis, we must be smarter about who receives a prison sentence.
Let me be clear: there will always be a place for prison, and there will always be offenders who must be locked up, but we must expand the range of punishments we use outside prison and consider how we punish those offenders who have broken our rules but are not a danger to society. For that reason, today I am launching a review of sentencing. It will have one clear goal: to ensure that we are never again in a position where we have more prisoners than we have space in our prisons.
The review will follow three principles. First, sentences must punish offenders and protect the public. For dangerous offenders, prison will always remain the answer. Punishment and public protection will be the Government’s first priority. There are some offenders whom I will task the review with considering, such as prolific offenders, who account for just one in every 10 individuals, but nearly half of all sentences. Some of them are hyper-prolific offenders, committing hundreds of crimes. I will ask the reviewers to consider whether a longer sentence might punish them better and force them to engage with rehabilitation on the inside.
The second, related, principle of the review is that sentences must encourage offenders to turn their backs on crime—we need both sticks and carrots. I will be encouraging the reviewers to learn from others who have succeeded. In Texas, for instance, Republican legislators faced a problem similar to ours: a soaring prison population; sky-high reoffending rates; and prisons that had run out of space. Working across political divides, the Texans introduced a system of good behaviour credits, where well-behaved prisoners could earn time off their sentence by engaging in rehabilitation programmes. The results were remarkable. Crime fell by nearly a third, reaching the lowest levels in half a century. The prison population fell by over 20,000, and after two decades, the Texans had closed 16 prisons rather than building new ones.
The third principle of the review is that it must expand the punishment that offenders receive outside of prison. There are already ways that we severely constrain offenders, limiting their freedom outside of prison. Those under home detention curfews are, in practice, under a form of house arrest. With a tag on their ankle and a sensor in their home, they are placed under curfew, generally for 12 hours each day. Should they break that curfew, they can be picked up and, if needs be, locked up.
In some ways, punishment outside of prison can be even more restrictive than prison. It is a sad fact that in many of our prisons today, a drinker can all too easily procure a drink. On a sobriety tag, however, with their sweat measured every 30 minutes and a 97% compliance rate, their teetotalism is almost as strict as mine. All of that is just using the technology that is immediately available to us, and used already in this country. I will be inviting the reviewers to consider the technology they have available to them now, and the next frontier of technology, used in other countries but not yet in ours. I believe that the modern world presents us with the opportunity to build a prison outside of prison, where the eyes of the state follow a prisoner more closely than any prison officer can.
Moving punishment out of prison for those who can be safely managed there has huge benefits. Outside of prison, offenders can engage in work that pays back the communities and individuals whom they have harmed. The evidence is abundantly clear that those who serve their sentences outside prison are far less likely to reoffend. That cuts crime, with fewer victims and safer streets, and reduces the huge cost to society of reoffending, most recently valued at over £22 billion a year.
This Government believe that crime must have consequences and criminals must be punished. We also believe in rehabilitation—that those who earn the right must be encouraged to turn their backs on crime. This Government believe in prison, but we must increase the use of punishment outside of prison too. The sentencing review will be tasked with pursuing those goals.
I am pleased to say that the review will be led by a former Lord Chancellor, David Gauke, a highly regarded Minister who served in multiple roles across Government. He has rightly gained the respect of both the judiciary and the legal sector, as well as many within this House. I will work with him to assemble a panel of reviewers who will draw together deep expertise and experience in the criminal justice system. The review will take a bipartisan and evidence-based look at an issue that has for far too long been a political football, booted around by both sides. David Gauke will report back with his recommendations in the spring, and I have placed a copy of the complete terms of reference of the review in the Library of the House.
It is right that the review is given time to do its work. As I have noted already, however, the capacity crisis in our prisons has not gone away. When we introduced emergency measures we believed that they had bought us about a year, but after the summer of disorder, the next crisis could be just nine months away. For that reason, I announced last week an extension of the sentencing powers of magistrates courts, which allows us to bear down on the remand population in our prisons. But we must go further.
While I will not countenance any further emergency releases of prisoners, there are operational measures that I will lay before the House in the months ahead. The first, which I have already referenced, is home detention curfew. This modern form of house arrest curtails freedom and helps offenders turn their lives around. Offenders are subject to electronically monitored curfews, which must be imposed for nine hours a day, are generally 12 hours long, and can extend to 16 hours.
As the shadow Lord Chancellor noted in the House in February, the reoffending rate for the average prisoner, which was measured a few years ago, is close to 50%, but for offenders released on a home detention curfew, it is 23%. This Government will soon extend the use of that measure, following in the footsteps of the previous Administration, who rightly expanded its use on a number of occasions. We will increase the maximum period that eligible offenders can spend under house arrest from six months to 12 months.
The second measure that we will introduce will address the soaring recall population, which has doubled from 6,000 to 12,000 in just six years. Risk assessed recall review is a power of the Secretary of State to re-release, on licence, those who pose a low risk to the public, avoiding the long waits they often face for a Parole Board hearing. In the past, the measure was used often: it was used between 1,000 and 1,500 times each year between 2017 and 2019; but its use has fallen in recent years, reaching as low as 92 times in 2022.
Later this month, I intend to review the risk assessed recall review process, so that lower-risk cases can be considered for re-release after they have been recalled to prison for two to three months, and where their further detention is no longer necessary to protect the public. I should note that this will only change the cases that can be considered for release, with the final decision still in the hands of experienced probation officers and managers.
The final area where I intend to make progress is in the case of foreign national offenders. I share the public’s view that, with 10,000 in our prisons, there are far too many foreign offenders in this country, costing £50,000 each a year to house at His Majesty’s pleasure. It happens to be my personal view that deportation is as good a punishment as imprisonment, if not better. We are currently on track to remove more foreign national offenders this year than at any time in recent years. But I will now be working with my colleagues across Government to explore the ways that we can accelerate that further, including working with the Home Office to make the early removal scheme for foreign offenders more effective.
When I walked into the Ministry of Justice for the first time as Lord Chancellor just over three months ago, I encountered a prison system on the brink of collapse. It was the result of the inaction of the last Government, who thought they could dither and delay, and led us to the precipice of disaster. But their failure was longer in the making: they failed to build the prison places this country needs, and they failed to address the challenge of an ever-rising prison population.
In July, this Government took action to avert immediate disaster, but the plan that I have set out today does more than that. It will ensure that this Government and our successors are never forced to rely on the emergency release of prisoners again—a measure over which I had no choice, one that I took despite my personal beliefs, and one that must never happen again. I commend this statement to the House.
Edward Argar (Melton and Syston) (Con)
As always, I am grateful to the Lord Chancellor for early sight of her statement, and for her coming to the House to deliver it, giving us the opportunity to ask questions. She is always unfailingly courteous in her dealings with this House.
The Lord Chancellor made several announcements today. It is important that we see the detail of her sentencing review, and that, whatever the outcome, it ensures that victims’ voices are heard throughout, that the worst offenders—for example, violent or sexual offenders—stay behind bars for longer, and that, as she alluded to, prolific offenders who cause so much blight and harm can still be subject to a custodial sentence where appropriate.
We saw an overall fall in reoffending since 2010 under the last Government, from around 31% to just over 25%, but there is of course still more to do. It is right that we look at all sentences, including tough community sentences, through the prism of what reduces reoffending, boosts rehabilitation and best protects the public. With that in mind, I know David Gauke well; he was my first boss as a Minister. He is a decent, honourable, able and thoughtful man, and I regard him as a friend, so I will not prejudge what he will conclude in his review. But the Opposition will rightly, as the Lord Chancellor would expect, scrutinise the review when it is published, and hold the Government to account on the choices they make on how to proceed subsequently. I hope the review’s terms of reference might include not just male prisoners, but female prisoners and female offenders, building on the female offenders strategy that David Gauke and I put in place many years ago.
As the Lord Chancellor has set out, prison capacity has been under significant pressure for some time, and while the situation was incredibly acute in 2008, 2009 and 2010, it remains a significant challenge. That is due to an increased average sentence length for first offenders—for which we make no apology—matched by the biggest prison-building programme since the Victorian era, with thousands of additional places built while tackling the legacy of the crumbling prison estate we inherited in 2010 and the Labour party’s absolute failure to build the 7,500 Titan prison places it promised while in government. Of course, though, the impact on the remand population of the decisions to not mass release during the pandemic and to rightly retain jury trials, compounded by the Bar strike, undoubtedly significantly increased pressure despite our prison-building programme.
The Lord Chancellor has set out her chosen approach, with more convicted criminals released today at the 40% point of their sentence, rather than the 50% point in tranche 2 of SDS40. We are seeing significant levels of concern from victims of crime about that approach—Sky News ran a powerful package this morning highlighting that concern—so I have several important questions on that aspect of the Lord Chancellor’s announcement. She said that she will publish data on SDS40 in the coming weeks in the normal run of statistics. I understand that, but we would be grateful if she could provide the date on which those statistics will be published. In the media this morning, she alluded to the rate of recalls being “very high” but disputed—based on her internal data—that it was as high as 50%, as was suggested on Radio 4. Can she expand on what that rate looks like?
In response to a written question from me, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Sir Nicholas Dakin) acknowledged that hotels are now being used in some cases to accommodate released prisoners under SDS40. In the light of the Lord Chancellor’s commitment at oral questions last month to be transparent about this matter—although it took a written question from me to get that confirmation—how many hotel rooms or places are being used, and at what cost? We have heard little thus far about deporting FNOs, so I am pleased that she has focused on that issue in her remarks, but when will she set out more details of her plans to improve the deportation rate of FNOs, and what targets is she setting for that?
Does the Lord Chancellor now acknowledge that—as we pointed out at the time, and as victims also pointed out—although the Government claimed that domestic abuse and domestic violence offences would be excluded from SDS40, that is simply not the case? DA offenders committing actual bodily harm or grievous bodily harm are not excluded. Will she revisit the exclusions list to review this matter? Will she also commit to building more prisons, over and above the six new prisons that we funded and have already been completed or are being built, and will she commit to funding that additional prison building?
Home detention curfew will further reduce the time that convicted criminals spend behind bars. Someone with a four-year sentence who is not excluded from SDS40 would now be out at around 19 months; with the possibility of 12-month HDC, that could mean that they were only inside for just over six months of a four-year sentence. I recognise that the interaction between different schemes and calculations is complex and may be different in individual cases, but can the Lord Chancellor reassure the House that a fixed minimum percentage will always be served by those sentenced to prison?
The Lord Chancellor will appreciate that with layer upon layer of reductions, some people will struggle to see that punishment or public protection are at the fore, so can she clarify a number of further points? While most DA offences would be presumed ineligible for HDC, that presumption is not absolute, and again, many common DA offences such as ABH or common assault are not presumed ineligible. What will the Lord Chancellor do to address that issue? Does she intend to examine the list of exclusions for both schemes—SDS40 and HDC—and come back to the House with a tougher list? Tagging is a vital part of HDC, but while there may be the tags, as she has mentioned, it appears that the ability to fit them swiftly is sadly lacking at present. What reassurances can the Lord Chancellor give that there is now no backlog at all in tagging? What steps is she taking to ensure that victims are contacted when perpetrators are released, and what additional resource is going into victim support services and probation, over and above what we had already committed to?
Turning to the rehabilitation activity requirement, it is right that experienced staff judge these cases. As the Lord Chancellor knows, the smaller numbers reflect both risk assessment and the complex interaction of RAR with other release schemes. I therefore fear that the bounty she might expect to get from the changes she intends to make will be limited. Will she confirm details of those proposed changes for the House in due course?
Finally, and most importantly, as I pressed the Lord Chancellor on last week, it is vital that the criminal justice system is not subject to a flat budget or, worse, cuts in next week’s Budget—cuts that would let down victims, those who work in the system, and the public. I fully appreciate that she will not be able to prejudge that Budget, either at the Dispatch Box or in the media, but a fair financial settlement, alongside her setting out her long-term plans for the system—a little of which I acknowledge we have seen today—will be absolutely essential if victims and the public are to have confidence in her Government on law and order.
Shabana Mahmood
I thank the shadow Lord Chancellor for the courteous way in which he has approached this debate, and for his detailed questions.
Let me start with his point in relation to the sentencing review. The voice of victims will be heard: there will be a representative with experience of working with victims to make sure that is covered in the review, and I look forward to announcing further members of that review panel over the coming days. The review will be free to consider every aspect of the sentencing framework, including the use of whole-life orders and minimum sentences. We have not constrained the sentencing review in any way: the review panel should take a proper look at the sentencing framework that we have and go where the evidence takes them.
I acknowledge the progress that was made on reducing reoffending, but as the shadow Lord Chancellor accepts, there is much more to do. We know that 80% of offenders are reoffenders and that 90% of those sentenced to custody are reoffenders. We have a big problem with that revolving door in and out of our prisons—as a country, that is a significant challenge that we must overcome. As I said, I will be placing the terms of reference in the House of Commons Library. The shadow Lord Chancellor will be pleased to see that those terms of reference refer to cohorts of offenders, including female offenders. He will also know that in my conference speech in September, I laid out a different approach to how this Government deal with women in our prisons.
Shabana Mahmood
I know that the shadow Lord Chancellor followed it closely. I am setting up a women’s justice board, which will report with a strategy in the spring. We need to do more with female offenders, especially given the impact that the incarceration of women and the breaking up of family homes has on their children, particularly as two thirds of women in prison are there for non-violent offences. I hope there is cross-party consensus in this House on dealing with women offenders differently.
On prison capacity, I say gently to the shadow Lord Chancellor that we can trade numbers across this Dispatch Box about things that the last Labour Government did before 2010, or he might want to acknowledge the failure that took place over his Government’s 14 years in power. He knows that only 500 net prison places were added by his Government over those 14 years, and that the crisis that faced me when I walked into the Department was acute—he knows that, because he had walked out of that same Department only a few days before. The previous Government ran our prisons boiling hot for far too long, so my inheritance when I took over was dire, leaving me with no option other than the emergency release of prisoners.
I note the shadow Lord Chancellor’s point about domestic abuse and domestic violence cases, but I remind him that his own early release scheme that his Government implemented for many months before the last general election—the so-called end of custody supervised licence scheme—contained none of the SDS40 exclusions. He knows that; he also knows that we pulled every lever available to us within the law to exclude the offences that are most closely connected to domestic abuse and domestic violence. As a matter of law, it is only possible to exclude offence types, rather than offenders. I have had to pull that emergency lever; I have sought to do so in the safest way possible, to make as many exclusions as possible, and to give the Probation Service the time it needs to prepare for this measure and to make sure victims are notified under victim notification schemes in the usual way.
I will be publishing the data in relation to tranche 1 and 2 releases in two ad hoc statistical releases before Christmas, so that data will be in the public domain. As the shadow Lord Chancellor will know from his time in the Department, the recall rate usually hovers between 6% and 10%—it can vary quite a bit between those numbers. Our current information is that the SDS40 releases are not showing a higher recall rate than we would expect compared with normal releases, but those statistics will of course be published in the usual way in due course.
On hotels, I made provision to allow the emergency use of hotel accommodation for prisoners released under the SDS40 scheme to prevent any homelessness that might lead to higher rates of recall. Fewer than 20 prisoners have been housed in hotels, and at a very low cost. This is a temporary measure, and I do not anticipate that it will be used any more extensively than it has been already. On foreign national offenders, I will return to this House on that matter, but work is under way across Government and I am working closely with my colleagues in the Home Office.
I will be publishing for the House, and will return to the House with, the detail of the further measures on the home detention curfew. The shadow Lord Chancellor rightly says that not everybody is automatically eligible for a home detention curfew. There is still a risk assessment, and safeguarding concerns are the No. 1 way in which domestic abuse issues show up as a red flag for a particular prisoner. I would not imagine that those previous and current arrangements will change very much with the measures we will take.
I thank the shadow Lord Chancellor for the contract concluded with Serco to deliver the tagging. It may not have been him directly and personally, but it was his Government. The performance of Serco has been unacceptable. Let me be very clear with the House: there is no shortage of tags in this country. It has failed to make sure that it has enough staff in place to tag everybody who needs a tag. Its progress has been monitored daily by me, my Ministers and officials in the Department, and we will continue to hold its feet to the fire. We will levy financial penalties, and all options remain on the table. Performance has improved a little—it has made progress—but all options are on the table if that falls back in any way.
The shadow Lord Chancellor will know that I am not going to comment on anything relating to the Budget. The Chancellor will make her statement in due course. I gently remind him that the budgets of the Ministry of Justice under the Tory party left a lot to be desired.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
I call the Chair of the Justice Committee.
Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith and Chiswick) (Lab)
I welcome the approach the Lord Chancellor is taking to the management of the prison system, and the appointment of David Gauke to head the sentencing review. Given that the initiatives she has announced today to relieve pressure on prisons will create additional work for already overstretched probation officers, will she make a further statement when she has decided what operational changes she is going to make to the Probation Service? The additional 14,000 prison places she has promised to build will take prison capacity to above 100,000. Is that desirable in the long term? Given her intention to expand punishment outside prison, will she make it her aim in time to close some of the worst of our existing prisons, built two or three centuries ago, which warehouse crime and, despite the best efforts of prison staff, do little or nothing to reform or rehabilitate their inmates?
Shabana Mahmood
I thank the Chair of the Select Committee for his questions. On probation, I recognise the very high workloads that probation officers are working under. We committed in our manifesto to a strategic review of probation governance. I have made sure that we have brought forward the recruitment of an extra 1,000 probation officers by March next year. We are working closely with probation unions and probation staff on the frontline to manage the situation. I am very conscious that we do not want to take the pressure out of the prisons and just leave it with the Probation Service instead. This is a whole-system response, and the whole system needs to be stabilised and able to face the pressures we see in it.
On the prison population, make no mistake: the number of prison places will increase in this country. We will deliver the 14,000 the previous Government did not deliver, and the prison population will therefore rise. However, as I have said, we cannot build our way out of this crisis, and we do have to do things differently. We are a very long way away from any of the changes the Chair of the Select Committee may want to see, but fundamentally we must make sure, and the review must make sure, that we never ever run out of prison places in this country again.
Josh Babarinde (Eastbourne) (LD)
I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of her statement.
Having myself grown up in a home of domestic violence at the hands of my mum’s former partner, I share the concerns of the Victims’ Commissioner and survivors of domestic abuse that loopholes in the early release scheme’s criteria could mean that some of their abusers, who have been convicted of violent offences but not of domestic violence-specific offences, may have been released early today. I know the Secretary of State attempted to provide some reassurances, but I can say to her that I have received communications from affected people outside this Chamber who are not satisfied with those assurances yet. Domestic abuse survivors deserve to be safe. Can she address these concerns today?
We welcome the Government’s determination to fix the mess that the Conservatives made of our criminal justice system through the evidence-led, independent sentencing review. The former Lord Chancellor chairing it and I have a track record of fixing things together. In my past life, I used to run a social enterprise phone repair company staffed by ex-offenders, and we ran pop-up repair shops in the MOJ, at one of which the then Lord Chancellor David Gauke eagerly presented his phone for repair. I hope this Lord Chancellor shares that collaborative fixing spirit when it comes to engaging with the Liberal Democrats and me on this review—and I will happily sort the Secretary of State out with a phone repair if she needs one.
While empirical evidence will be critical to this review, some of the most valuable insights on this matter are held by victims and survivors themselves. I was therefore disappointed not to find the words “victim” or “survivor” mentioned once anywhere in the terms of reference, although I have heard the Secretary of State say them today. Will she put that right, and outline specifically how victims and survivors will be represented and formally consulted in the sentencing review?
Finally, even though the Secretary of State has said there will be no constraints and no constrictions, something else missing from the review is the injustice of indeterminate imprisonment for public protection sentences, under which almost 3,000 people remain imprisoned with no release date. What is more, people are serving IPP sentences who have committed lesser offences than those being released today under the Government’s early release scheme. Reforming these sentences could help address prison overcrowding and the safety crisis, so why have the Government explicitly excluded IPP sentences from this review, and will she reconsider that decision?
Shabana Mahmood
I thank the Liberal Democrat spokesperson for his questions. I am sorry to hear about his personal experiences, but they will of course inform the valuable contributions that he makes in this House from his own lived experience.
As the hon. Gentleman knows, there is not a specific offence of domestic abuse in our legislative framework. To bring in the emergency release scheme to prevent us from running out of prison spaces in July, I have pulled every lever at my disposal. We can make these changes in law only by excluding offences, not offender cohorts or offender types. That is why the list of offences covered includes those most closely connected to domestic abuse situations, but it is not of course fully comprehensive. It cannot be, because we can exclude only offences, not offender types. I hope he will recognise that I pulled these levers as early as possible in the Parliament—almost as soon as I walked into the Department—because I wanted to give the Probation Service time to prepare for this change. Specifically, it was so that it could notify victims, work on proper release plans for these offenders, make sure that the licence conditions are the right ones and make sure that the monitoring of these offenders in the community is as strong as it needs to be.
The hon. Gentleman will also know that those who are flagged as having a domestic violence background are prioritised for tags. Every choice I have made in bringing forward these emergency release changes has been made to try to minimise the impact on victims. I really empathise with and am very affected by the concerns of victims that those who have offended against them are being released some weeks or months early. That might sound small, but I know it has a huge impact, and I do not seek to minimise that in any way. As I say, I have pulled every lever at my disposal to try to minimise those concerns.
On the sentencing review, when we reveal the whole panel we will ensure that victims’ voices are represented, as that is important. In the terms of reference we have tried to capture the fact that all of society suffers collectively when we do not get reoffending rates down. This is a strategy for cutting crime and producing fewer victims in future, which I hope the hon. Gentleman will support.
IPP sentences are specifically excluded. That is a challenging cohort of prisoners in our system, and where it is safe to do so I am determined to make progress on releasing those who are currently serving an IPP sentence. I worked with the previous Government and supported changes to the licence terms and conditions brought in by the Conservative Administration. We are implementing changes that were made in the Victims and Prisoners Act 2024, which was enacted just before the general election. What we cannot do is release people who still pose a risk to the public, and with this cohort of offenders I cannot release those who are still a danger to themselves and to others. Getting that balance right is incredibly important, and I hope the hon. Gentleman will acknowledge that it is not appropriate to put that cohort of offenders within the sentencing review.
Andrew Lewin (Welwyn Hatfield) (Lab)
Under the Conservative Government, more than one in two people who served short-term custodial sentences went on to reoffend. In total, reoffending is costing our country £20 billion a year. That is not working at all, and not working for the taxpayer. In my constituency, and across Hertfordshire, fantastic charities such as the Hertfordshire Association for the Care and Rehabilitation of Offenders are running innovative and pioneering programmes, and working with ex-offenders to ensure that they do not offend again. Will my right hon. Friend say a little more about how the Government will adopt a new approach and work with charities and broader civil society to cut reoffending for good?
Shabana Mahmood
My hon. Friend is right: reoffending has a huge cost for us all as a country because it creates more victims of crime. Indeed, it costs us more than £20 billion at about £22 billion a year. Charities and other groups have a huge role to play in helping to bring down the reoffending rate, but to allow that work to succeed we must bring down overcrowding and the capacity crisis in our prisons. I hope the sentencing review will help us to chart a new course when it comes to bringing down reoffending.
Sir Ashley Fox (Bridgwater) (Con)
I thank the Lord Chancellor for her statement. In the first wave of early releases, 37 prisoners were wrongly released. What steps is she taking to ensure that those mistakes are not repeated? Does she agree that the best way to reduce reoffending is to ensure that released prisoners are able to participate in the labour market, and what will she do to improve education and training within the prison system?
Shabana Mahmood
On the 37 who were wrongly released, I had never imagined that it would be possible for people to be charged and sentenced under an older Act of Parliament, and not the more recent Sentencing Act 2020, and as soon as that issue was brought to our attention we took immediate steps. All 37 were ultimately returned to custody, and I will ensure that that mistake cannot happen again. The hon. Gentleman makes a good point about reducing reoffending. Access to literacy training and skills and the ability to get a job are important in helping an offender turn their back on a life of crime, and I hope the sentencing review will make further positive suggestions on that. We know we have to tackle reoffending, and we know that jobs, housing and so on are part of the picture if we are to persuade people to become the better citizens that we need them to be, rather than the better criminals that our system currently produces.
Bambos Charalambous (Southgate and Wood Green) (Lab)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s review of sentencing, but as she may know, people who are neurodivergent are hugely over-represented in the prison population. What steps will she take to ensure that prisoners with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and autism do not reoffend?
Shabana Mahmood
My hon. Friend is right to say that the support prisoners receive in prison must be tailored to take account of needs such as neurodivergence and autism, much of which has gone undiagnosed in the life of prisoners, and often does not even get diagnosed within the prison estate. We must obviously turn that around, and I am confident we can make progress in that area. First we have to deal with the capacity crisis, because when prisons are very overcrowded offenders are locked up for 23 hours a day, and in that one remaining hour little good work can be done. We must deal with the capacity problems so that we can then deal with the underlying issues that prisoners face before they can make the positive choices that we all want.
Dr Kieran Mullan (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)
The Secretary of State has identified a good set of principles for her review. On the Texan approach, does she think that it would be fairer to victims if, rather than us looking at extending early release further, we used the reward of the existing access to early release? She talked a lot about evidence, but she will understand that it is harder to evidence victims’ feelings about justice, and that risks greater weight being given to statistics on reoffending, and other information that the Ministry of Justice has to hand. How does she propose to close the gap in evidence relating to how victims and their families feel about sentencing?
Shabana Mahmood
The hon. Gentleman makes good point. The Texan model is of interest because it sought to incentivise the positive behaviour that reduces reoffending and ultimately cuts crime, and Texas saw some pretty spectacular results. There is no exact read-across from that model to our system, and it will be for the review to consider that model and others around the world to see what approaches might work here. It is imperative that any measures we take retain the confidence of victims and the wider public. Any punishment that takes place outside a prison needs to still look and feel like proper punishment to every community in our country. That is non-negotiable. Public confidence must be maintained, and that speaks to the hon. Gentleman’s second point. Evidence is important, and in my experience, when victims are engaged in the process, they appreciate the need to reduce reoffending, because they do not want other people to be victims. Their voice will be heard in the review; I hope that reassures him.
Jake Richards (Rother Valley) (Lab)
In June 2019, David Gauke made a speech as Lord Chancellor on smarter sentencing. It was a helpful, coherent, cogent, evidence-based speech about sentencing reform. Four Conservative Prime Ministers later, no progress has been made, so I am pleased that the Labour Government will grasp the nettle. We were just discussing the Texan example of problem solving and sentencing, but can the Lord Chancellor reassure me that the review will also consider family, drug and alcohol courts, and the progress and positive results that we have seen in the family courts?
Shabana Mahmood
My hon. Friend makes the case well for why David Gauke is the right person to lead this review. As I said, he brings deep expertise to this debate. I am sure that the sentencing review panel will be interested, as many are, in some of the pilots that are being run on problem-solving courts, and also in the family courts.
Tessa Munt (Wells and Mendip Hills) (LD)
What measures is the Lord Chancellor taking to ensure that the review considers the impact of sentencing polices on different socioeconomic groups, and addresses concerns about disproportionate sentences for marginalised communities and minority groups?
Shabana Mahmood
The hon. Member raises an important point. That issue is not within the review’s terms of reference. It will not consider disparities in sentencing because it is looking at the overall sentencing framework, and how we ensure that we never run out of prison places again. There is an important debate on disparities in the criminal justice system. The review on sentencing is not the proper place for that, but we will take forward that other work in due course.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Ind)
I declare an interest: I am the honorary life president of the Prison Officers Association. I thank the Secretary of State on behalf of the POA for her open-door policy on engagement with the union. I congratulate her on bringing forward the sentencing review. The POA has long argued that there are too many people in prison, in particular with mental health problems. They include veterans with post-traumatic stress disorder who should not be there, but should be treated elsewhere. Will she ensure that the unions are fully involved in deciding on the composition of the panel and the engagement process for the review?
Shabana Mahmood
Working closely with our trade unions is important to us. We have already engaged with the Prison Officers Association. Let me place on record my thanks to all who work in our prisons and our probation system. In our prisons in particular, the rates of violence against prison officers have been too high for too long. I salute the hard work that prison officers do in a difficult job on behalf of us all. My right hon. Friend can be assured of our close engagement with everybody who works in His Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service going forward.
James Wild (North West Norfolk) (Con)
Parliament legislated for a maximum sentence of life imprisonment for causing death by dangerous driving, but judges are yet to impose such a sentence, despite such cases as the one in my constituency in which three people were killed by a driver in a case with five aggravating factors. Will the Lord Chancellor ensure that when the review considers longer custodial sentences, it looks at how victims can get justice, and how the maximum sentences legislated for by this place are applied?
Shabana Mahmood
The hon. Member will know that sentencing decisions in individual cases are a matter for the independent judiciary, who have to consider all the facts in front of them and sentence accordingly, based on the law, the sentencing guidelines and the framework. I cannot comment on the specifics of the case he mentions. The review will not be constrained in any way in its inquiry, or on maximum sentences, whole life orders and so on. The whole range of sentences that are available is open for the review panel to consider and make recommendations on.
Mr Calvin Bailey (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
I thank my right hon. Friend for her handling of the issue and the approach she is taking in response to the challenges she faces. This morning, I met local police leadership to discuss the challenges around drug-based criminality in Leyton and Wanstead. The situation they face could not be clearer. After 14 years of Tory failure, overstretched police services, over-capacity prisons and woefully underfunded probation services and councils have led to a vicious cycle of reoffending. Does she agree that the whole system needs reform and investment to restore public trust in our justice system, and to keep my constituents safe?
Shabana Mahmood
My hon. Friend will know that in our safer streets mission, improving confidence in the criminal justice system is one of the key outcomes we are focused on. He is right to make the point that the whole criminal justice system requires stabilisation. It all needs to be put on a better trajectory than the one we inherited from the previous Government. We are talking in detail about prisons, but it is difficult to divorce what is happening in our prison system from what is going on in probation and the courts. I reassure him that I conceive of this as a whole-system approach. I am aware of the challenges in other bits of the system; they are things that this Government will ultimately sort out.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
The Lord Chancellor speaks with great clarity and determination on this issue, and I am sure that she will remember last week promising me a ministerial meeting involving my constituent, Andrew Duncan, and a specialist team. They are working on a new concept of community detention that I believe is tailor-made for the vision that the Lord Chancellor has outlined to us today. Can she confirm that the meeting will go ahead, notwithstanding the extra opportunity to give evidence to the Gauke review in due course?
Shabana Mahmood
I knew immediately that the right hon. Gentleman was going to ask about the meeting he referenced last week, when I made my other statement. I assure him that I will follow that up. I am interested in the work of the group that he mentions, and I am sure that the sentencing review panel will also be interested in it.
Charlotte Nichols (Warrington North) (Lab)
I thank the Lord Chancellor for her statement, and for the leadership she has shown in trying to turn around a Department that, by any metric, was failing. I thank her for the transparent and considered approach that she has taken in reaching some of the difficult decisions she has had to make since taking office. While I accept the inevitability of the early release scheme, what conversations has she had with ministerial colleagues on improving victim support for those who have seen perpetrators return to the community earlier than they were perhaps mentally prepared for, so as to reduce harm as far as possible?
Shabana Mahmood
I can assure my hon. Friend that my ministerial team and I have been working closely with our colleagues, primarily in the Home Office, but also across Government. Support for victims sits in different Departments, but we are making sure that we have a “one team” approach to this important matter. I have sought to pull the levers at my disposal in such a way that we gave the Probation Service the time it needed to prepare for the SDS40 changes. I did that because I wanted to ensure that our obligations under the victim notification scheme could be met. I am monitoring progress on that regularly, and I will ensure that any improvements required are made on a continual basis. We keep this under constant review.
Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
Neil Foden is in prison for the sexual abuse of four vulnerable schoolchildren. He was the headteacher and strategic headteacher at two secondary schools in Gwynedd. Foden was convicted of 19 charges and sentenced to 17 years in July this year for his abhorrent crimes. The judge said he showed no remorse. Can the Lord Chancellor advise me how to seek assurance for his victims that Foden will not be released until he has served at least two thirds of his sentence?
Shabana Mahmood
I can confirm that all sex offences of all types are excluded from the SDS40 measures.
Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford) (Ind)
I very much welcome the Lord Chancellor’s sentencing review, but on immediate systemic issues, privately run Forest Bank prison in Salford is at 138% capacity, with continued reports over the years of high levels of violence and insufficient rehabilitative training for prisoners. The contract runs out in January. Can the Secretary of State confirm who will be running the prison after that date? Will she be bringing it back under state control? What measures is she taking to urgently ensure safety in the prison and adequate rehabilitative training?
Shabana Mahmood
I will not pre-empt any future decisions on any particular prison, but I am not ideological about whether a prison is run by the state or privately. There are good prisons of both types in the sector. There are some failing state-run prisons and some failing privately run prisons. The most important thing is that we get on top of the capacity crisis across the whole prison estate. We have to reduce overcrowding so that we can focus on the good-quality rehabilitation activity that I know governors in every type of prison want to ensure, so that prisoners can be helped to turn their life around.
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
I congratulate the Lord Chancellor on recognising that for some prisoners, the shortcomings of short sentences are properly remedied by providing for longer ones. On the review and David Gauke, it is difficult not to like him and even admire him, but I am not alone in regarding him as a notorious wet, am I?
Shabana Mahmood
I will leave those characterisations to the internal workings of the Conservative party. I consider David Gauke to be a person with deep expertise in this area. He is a former Lord Chancellor who knows this territory very well. He will be able to hit the ground running, and I know that he will go where the evidence takes him.
Mike Amesbury (Runcorn and Helsby) (Lab)
The Lord Chancellor referred to successful work in Texas. If we adopt such a model over here, how will victims be involved in shaping that tough rehabilitation approach?
Shabana Mahmood
We will make sure that the review panel, when it is fully put together, includes somebody with experience of working with victims of crime to make sure that that perspective is fully reflected in the investigations that the review undertakes and, ultimately, in its findings and recommendations.
Mr Paul Kohler (Wimbledon) (LD)
May I congratulate the Lord Chancellor on the terms of reference of this review, and the appointment of the excellent David Gauke? I remain concerned, however, about the Government’s evident enthusiasm for increasing capacity. May I ask the Lord Chancellor directly whether she agrees with her colleague in the other place that we imprison too many people in this country? Is the Lord Chancellor’s ultimate aim to reduce the prison population?
Shabana Mahmood
We need to make sure that we have the prison places we need to lock up those who have to be locked up. That is fundamentally non-negotiable. We have to see an increase in prison capacity. I mentioned earlier that the previous Government failed to deliver 14,000 places. Without them, we will run out of prison places again. We have to build the supply, and we have to do better on reoffending. All these things are equally important, and they all have to be done at the same time. I will not set arbitrary figures for how many people can and should go to prison. I want to ensure that we never again run out of prison places, that we do better on rehabilitation and that we expand punishment outside prison.
Mr Alex Barros-Curtis (Cardiff West) (Lab)
I welcome the announcement of the bipartisan sentencing review panel and thank my right hon. Friend for her continuing work to fix the mess of the last 14 years in this Department. The evidence shows that 55% of adults on short sentences go on to reoffend, while community orders have a 34% reoffending rate. Can she assure me that the panel will consider that as part of its remit?
Shabana Mahmood
That is exactly the sort of area that the panel will review. Although the reoffending rates for community orders are lower, they are still far too high. I am sure that the sentencing panel will want to consider how to bring all the numbers down so that we can ensure we are rehabilitating more people and ultimately cutting crime.
Dr Beccy Cooper (Worthing West) (Lab)
In 2021, the Justice Committee highlighted the fact that too many offenders were imprisoned because community orders with mental health requirements were unavailable in many areas across the country. Does the Lord Chancellor agree that we must now work across the health and justice systems to ensure that adequate provision is available in this essential area?
Shabana Mahmood
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I can assure her that I will work closely with the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care to make sure that there is join-up across Government and that we do everything we can to reduce reoffending, rehabilitate more people and ultimately cut crime.
Mr Jonathan Brash (Hartlepool) (Lab)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement, particularly her preference for the deportation of foreign criminals and her comments that for hyper-prolific offenders, a particular problem in my constituency, longer sentences may be best. Whatever the outcome of the review, can she commit that dangerous criminals who pose a threat to the public, in Hartlepool or anywhere else, will always be locked up under this Government?
Shabana Mahmood
Yes, I absolutely can. The whole point of the review is to ensure that the country is never again in a position in which we might run out of prison places, and to ensure that those who must be locked up to keep the public safe will always be locked up.
Warinder Juss (Wolverhampton West) (Lab)
Keeping a prisoner in prison costs the taxpayer over £50,000 a year, whereas punishing the prisoner out of prison costs less than £5,000 a year. What is more, the prisoner is then far less likely to reoffend. Does the Secretary of State agree that taxpayers’ money would be better spent on having a much cheaper and better alternative to prison?
Shabana Mahmood
My hon. Friend makes a really important point about the relative costs of imprisonment and of punishment out of prison. Delivering the 14,000 prison places that the previous Government failed to deliver is a big cost, but it will be met by this Government. We must also ensure that we expand punishment out of prison. All options must be pursued if we are to get to grips with this crisis.
John Slinger (Rugby) (Lab)
I am not given to hyperbole; I will simply say that my right hon. Friend has inherited a shocking and dangerous situation and is dealing with it in a calm and collected manner. I applaud and support the move to a more sensible and sustainable policy on sentencing, but will she assure my constituents in Rugby that we will always lock up violent and dangerous offenders where necessary to keep the public safe?
Shabana Mahmood
Let me assure my hon. Friend that the answer to his question is yes and yes. Part of the reason for doing the review is to ensure that this country is never again on the brink of running out of prison places, and that dangerous offenders who need to be locked up to keep the public safe will always be locked up.
Lauren Edwards (Rochester and Strood) (Lab)
I welcome the sentencing review and thank the Secretary of State for her explanation of why IPP sentences are not included in the review. What steps will she take to accelerate routes out of custody for prisoners serving IPP sentences, including a re-sentencing review that can be done without prejudice to public protection, to end an injustice once and for all and to increase capacity on our prison estate?
Shabana Mahmood
I hear the point my hon. Friend makes, and she makes it very well. We are not considering a re-sentencing exercise for IPP prisoners, because that would automatically release a number of people who we do not believe it would be safe to release. I am not willing to compromise public protection. I know that there is a huge injustice at the heart of these issues and that IPP sentences have rightly been abolished, but we have a problem with the cohort, in particular those under an IPP sentence who have never been released at all. I am determined to make more progress, wherever it is possible to do so safely, on releasing more IPP prisoners, but never in a way that compromises public protection.
Amanda Martin (Portsmouth North) (Lab)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s commitment to cross-party working, transparency and rebuilding public trust. Does she agree that this is a significant departure from the previous Government, who released over 10,000 prisoners not in the open but in secret?
Shabana Mahmood
I agree. My hon. Friend is right to remind the House of the last Conservative Government’s end of custody supervised licence scheme, for which we, in the end, had to release the numbers. Over 10,000 offenders were released under that scheme, without transparency and without the same exemptions that we have applied to the SDS40 changes.
Shaun Davies (Telford) (Lab)
What a mess we have inherited! I thank the Lord Chancellor for the steps that she has taken today to sort it out. We know that offenders who are subject to home detention orders are 50% less likely to reoffend, but can we put them to work as well during unpaid work sessions? Can we ensure that offenders who commit further offences while on licence are dealt with more robustly in the courts as they are recalled to prison?
Shabana Mahmood
My hon. Friend raises really important points about how we break the cycle of recalls to prison and ensure that licence conditions are abided by, and about the scope for putting more offenders to work. I am sure that these will be matters of great interest to the sentencing review panel. I look forward to seeing its findings in due course.
Ben Goldsborough (South Norfolk) (Lab)
The past 14 years have shown that Governments ignore the prison estate at their peril. My right hon. Friend rightly says that we must redesign punishment outside the secure estate. Will she elaborate on how offenders will have their liberty curtailed and how the public will be made aware of that liberty being taken away?
Shabana Mahmood
The modern world, with different technology, presents the best possible opportunity for us to expand the use of punishment out of prison, but in a way that gives the public confidence that offenders are being supervised, that the eyes of the state remain on them and that their behaviour and their liberty are effectively curtailed. I expect that new technology, as well as current available technology, will be of great interest to the review panel. I look forward to its findings when it reports in the spring.
Bill Presented
Trade Agreements (Exclusion of National Health Services) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Seamus Logan, supported by Stephen Flynn, Pete Wishart, Kirsty Blackman, Dave Doogan, Stephen Gethins, Chris Law, Graham Leadbitter, Brendan O’Hara, Claire Hanna and Ben Lake, presented a Bill to exclude requirements relating to National Health Services procurement, delivery or commissioning from international trade agreements; to require the consent of the House of Commons and the devolved legislatures to international trade agreements insofar as they relate to the National Health Services of England, Scotland and Wales and Health and Social Care in Northern Ireland; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 17 January 2025, and to be printed (Bill 109).
Vehicle Registration Documents (Sale of Vehicle) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Richard Holden presented a Bill to require a seller of a vehicle to record their home address or specified information about a company that owns the vehicle in the vehicle’s registration document; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 28 March 2025, and to be printed (Bill 107).
Dogs (Protection of Livestock) (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Joe Morris presented a Bill to make provision changing the law about the offence of livestock worrying, including changes to what constitutes an offence and increased powers for investigation of suspected offences; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 25 April 2025, and to be printed (Bill 52).
Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and International Committee of the Red Cross (Status) Bill [Lords]
Tuesday 22nd October 2024
(2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and International Committee of the Red Cross (Status) Bill [HL] 2024-26 View all Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and International Committee of the Red Cross (Status) Bill [HL] 2024-26 Debates Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Stephen Doughty)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
I put on the record my previous engagements with the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, on many excellent and informative trips that contributed to our relationships across the Commonwealth, and my past engagement with the International Committee of the Red Cross.
I am delighted to see the Bill back in the House; I hope that there will be wholehearted unity today to ensure that it makes it to Royal Assent. I think this is its fourth iteration. The last time it was debated here was as a private Member’s Bill in the last Session, but sadly it ran out of time before the Dissolution of Parliament for the general election. I pay tribute to the former Member for Basingstoke for her tireless work in introducing that Bill and pushing it through, and to many hon. Members, some of whom I see here today, for their past work with the CPA and the ICRC.
It is critical that both the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the International Committee of the Red Cross be given their correct status in UK legislation to conduct their work and deliver their objectives while operating in the UK. This will help to guarantee that the CPA remains headquartered in the UK and will ensure that the UK can guarantee the ICRC that the confidential information that it shares as a matter of course with the UK Government is secure and protected.
The UK is deeply committed to the Commonwealth and believes that the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting, which the Foreign Secretary is attending in Samoa, will be an important opportunity to mobilise action on shared interests, including upholding shared Commonwealth values. Those values are embodied by the CPA’s important work to strengthen inclusive and accountable democracy across the Commonwealth. I think back to my own many engagements with the CPA in which I have seen that work at first hand, both when delegations have visited and when I have been part of delegations. The UK values its partnership with the CPA and is proud to support the work of the CPA and its regional branch CPA UK. That includes developing benchmarks and indicators of parliamentary democracy and addressing modern slavery in supply chains and issues such as gender-based violence with Parliaments and parliamentarians across the Commonwealth.
The ICRC is an essential partner in achieving the UK’s global humanitarian objectives. It has a unique mandate from states to uphold the Geneva conventions and works globally to promote international humanitarian law. Its impartiality, neutrality and independence allow it to engage and negotiate with all parties to a conflict and to provide protection and humanitarian assistance to vulnerable populations, often in contexts in which other agencies are unable to operate. I have witnessed its important work, in opposition and in my past career in the humanitarian sector.
Clauses 1 and 2 will therefore provide for both organisations to be treated in a manner comparable to an international organisation, with the associated privileges and immunities. Treatment as an international organisation will allow the CPA to continue to operate fully across the Commonwealth and international fora. It will allow the organisation to participate fully in areas in which it is currently restricted, including signing up to joint international statements and communiqués. That is vital to ensure that the CPA can continue its work to promote democracy and good governance across the Commonwealth. The CPA is currently registered with the Charity Commission for England and Wales and is not an international intergovernmental organisation; it therefore has its own unique constitutional arrangements that reflect its specific international mandate.
Clause 2 is critical to enable the ICRC to operate in the UK in accordance with its international mandate, maintaining its strict adherence to the principles of neutrality, impartiality and independence and its working methods of confidentiality. The ICRC is not an inter-governmental organisation either; it has its own unique and historical international humanitarian mandate to protect the lives and dignity of victims of armed conflict and other situations of violence and to provide them with assistance.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
Nobody doubts the good work of the CPA or the ICRC—we have all seen it as parliamentarians—but does the Minister understand that many of us are a little wary about conferring privileges and immunities by Order in Council after the Bill is passed, since this House is not, in general, in the habit of granting privileges and immunities without scrutiny?
Stephen Doughty
The right hon. Gentleman can be assured that these are the appropriate measures. We have determined this way in line with previous discussions on the previous iteration of the Bill. This is the best way to achieve the aims of the Bill in a timely fashion, so that the provisions are put in place for the CPA and the ICRC. I am very happy to write to him further on this matter. The Bill will face scrutiny in Committee, where we will be able to discuss these matters in greater detail.
The provisions in clauses 1 and 2 will ensure that the CPA and the ICRC can be accorded comparable treatment to an international organisation, even when the definition of international organisation in existing legislation is limited to intergovernmental organisations. For the CPA, this treatment will be limited to its core international organs, such as the secretariat. It is not intended that any privileges, immunities or other facilities be extended to any of the national or sub-national branches, so this is a limited provision.
The arrangements for both organisations will detail the day-to-day management of the privileges and immunities granted on a functional needs basis, and other facilities. They will make it clear that there will be no immunity for the CPA’s secretary-general or representatives of the ICRC in respect of damage caused by, for example, a motor vehicle operated or owned by either. The way that the limitations and requirements have been set out in this regard is important.
Clause 2(1)(e) lays out an important confidentiality provision, to protect certain information provided in confidence to His Majesty’s Government by the ICRC from being disclosed in UK civil court proceedings or under any statutory provision or rule of law. As my noble Friend Baroness Chapman stated on Second Reading in the other place, this provision reflects the ICRC’s standard working method of confidentiality, which is designed to protect its staff and operations in active conflict zones. I am sure that Members will understand that publicly disclosing information that the ICRC obtains from confidential dialogue with conflict parties is likely to put at risk its ability to have confidential dialogue with conflict parties, its humanitarian access and, indeed, the security of its staff, and might result in the ICRC restricting the information it shares with the UK.
However, in relation to the concerns that Members have raised in the past, the Bill does not provide an absolute blanket exemption for disclosure requirements for all ICRC communications. Important limitations have been incorporated, such as the exclusion of criminal cases. The Government continue to be committed to respecting the confidentiality of ICRC information as a matter of policy. Past practice has demonstrated the importance of doing so. The Bill is an opportunity to end any uncertainty about the Government’s position and to put this practice on a statutory footing.
I want to turn briefly to clause 3, which is equivalent to section 8 of the International Organisations Act 1968, which allows the Secretary of State to certify questions of fact relating to the status of, or the privileges and immunities conferred on, the organisations. In the context of court proceedings, if a question arises of whether a person is entitled to any privilege or immunity by virtue of an Order in Council made under clauses 1 or 2, such a certification is to be treated as conclusive evidence of those facts for the purposes of proceedings.
Clause 4 details the scope and extent of the Orders in Council that confer privileges and immunities on both organisations under clauses 1 and 2 respectively—this relates to the intervention from the right hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison). An Order in Council may make different provisions for different cases or persons, and it may also contain consequential, supplementary, incidental, transitional or saving provisions. Clause 4 also provides the enabling power for two important aspects: first, the Order in Council may specify circumstances in which privileges and immunities do not apply, either because of an exception or because they have been waived by the organisation; and secondly, the Order in Council may specify that fiscal reliefs and exemptions are subject to arrangements or conditions imposed by the Secretary of State.
Clause 4 provides that any Order in Council made for these purposes will be subject to the draft affirmative parliamentary procedure, which means that they will require the approval of both Houses before they may have effect. The list of privileges and immunities that may be conferred on both organisations is set out in the schedule to the Bill and has been informed by the International Organisations Act.
Briefly, clause 5 explains that the term “ICRC” means the International Committee of the Red Cross, as given under clause 2(1)(a), and it ensures that the definition of “statutory provision” allows for the treatment of the CPA and the ICRC as international organisations in respect of all relevant primary and secondary legislation, including devolved legislation in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland whenever made.
In conclusion, and to reiterate what was said in the other place, the Bill will give the CPA and the ICRC the correct status in UK legislation to allow both organisations to continue their international operations without unnecessary restriction. The Government have a strong commitment to the Commonwealth. It continues to support our global humanitarian objectives through our work with the ICRC, and the Bill is a true reflection of that. I hope that it will enjoy the wholehearted support of the House as it proceeds swiftly into law. I commend it to the House.
Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stamford) (Con)
First, I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the former Member for Basingstoke, Maria Miller, who championed the Bill so vigorously and brought a Bill on this issue to the House no fewer than three times. I thank the Minister of State for his kind words about her.
Before Parliament was dissolved, the Bill had completed its passage through the House of Commons and its Second Reading in the House of Lords. Although the number of hon. Friends behind me may suggest otherwise, we on the Conservative Benches will support the Bill, an update of it having been brought before Parliament. I also thank my noble Friend Baroness Anelay of St Johns, who has long campaigned for the Bill’s provisions in the other place, and Lord Ahmad, the previous Minister for the Commonwealth, who fully understood the need for and importance of the Bill. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Melton and Syston (Edward Argar), who wrapped up this debate when we were last in government; I fear that I shall not do it the justice that he did. As his constituency neighbour, I shall do my best.
The Bill may be small and technical, but it is important. The legal changes it contains will ensure the continued success of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the International Committee of the Red Cross—two organisations that do vital work—in the UK. As you are aware, Madam Deputy Speaker, Mr Speaker is president of the UK Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, whose work is indispensable in helping to realise the Commonwealth charter’s commitment to the development of free and democratic societies.
As the Minister said, it is timely that we should be debating the Bill today as the Commonwealth Heads of Government meet in Samoa. It is the first ever Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting to be held in a pacific small state island. That demonstrates the importance of the Commonwealth in empowering the voices of smaller states and the equity of membership of all of those in the Commonwealth.
I have been privileged to both attend and speak at CPA summits under Mr Speaker’s presidency and I have learned a huge amount from Commonwealth colleagues—although, perhaps surprisingly for those in the House, I do not have any foreign visits with them to declare. The CPA creates pathways to friendships across the Commonwealth, building up the person-to-person relationships that matter so very much. We are all very aware of the acute threats to democracy internationally. The CPA is a genuinely positive institution, allowing best practice to be shared, linking parliamentarians in friendship, and strengthening resilience across our societies. Long may it continue.
Dr Neil Hudson (Epping Forest) (Con)
I very much welcome the Bill, which supports two important organisations. The King is currently in Australia as the Head of the Commonwealth. Will my hon. Friend join me in paying tribute to the Commonwealth—that family of nations with shared values—and to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, which, as she has said, provides such an opportunity to share best practice and spread the common good of democracy right across the Commonwealth?
Alicia Kearns
I thank my hon. Friend. It is so rare for us to celebrate the positive in this House, but the Bill does exactly that. We should be proud of how His Majesty has championed the Commonwealth, both before he became our monarch and since. I look forward to his arrival in Samoa in the coming days.
The Conservative Government proudly ran multiple projects with the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association to strengthen the democratic nature of legislatures and how decisions are approached and made. Ultimately, the Bill will amend the legal environment to ensure that the CPA remains headquartered in the UK; again, we can all agree that that is unambiguously positive. In an increasingly dark world, it is worth fighting for those small shoots of light that offer a glimpse of a path to a better future. This is one.
I will turn to the International Committee of the Red Cross. The ICRC has a unique legitimacy to engage all parties to conflicts and unparalleled access to vulnerable people in conflict zones. Frequently, it is the only agency operating at scale in conflicts. For example, it is currently operating in Ukraine, Afghanistan and Syria—I declare an interest, as I have previously worked with the organisation in some of those zones.
In 2023 alone the ICRC’s 18,000 staff supported over 730 hospitals, mainly in conflict zones, and provided food assistance to more than 2.7 million people. I am proud that the previous Conservative Government committed £1 million to the ICRC to provide life-saving care and essential supplies to people affected by the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh.
The Bill will guarantee to the ICRC that the sensitive information that it must be able to share with the Government will be protected. We do not want the ICRC to have to restrict the information that it shares with the UK because of the risk of disclosure, so the Bill makes an important step, particularly when it comes to hostages. Given that there is so much suffering globally, we need to take every possible step to ensure that our humanitarian efforts are effective. I am pleased that there will be, I hope, cross-party agreement on that.
The Bill will mean that the UK extends the privileges and immunities to both organisations in a manner comparable to that of an international organisation of which we are a member. The measure may be a little novel, but it is a neat legal solution that addresses both central challenges around which the Bill is centred. Although the changes provide a firm footing for the future work of both the CPA and the ICRC, they also offer the opportunity for the fulfilment of foreign policy objectives. If they are to be a success, the Government must seize the opportunities presented by the Bill.
Once our relationship with the ICRC is secured, how do the Government plan on improving collaboration and, most importantly, results? What shared areas of interest will the Government focus on and how will those manifest in tangible outcomes? Has the Minister assessed which specific parts of the Bill will facilitate that work? If so, will he share that assessment with the House?
On the CPA, has the Minister scoped any additional support that the Government could provide to both the delegation and the institution as a whole to bolster its work? Will he commit to building on the good work of the Conservative Government to help strengthen institutions in Commonwealth countries, using a whole-ecosystem approach? Finally, when we were in government we committed that the Foreign Secretary would consult the chair of the UK branch and the secretary-general of the CPA and the president and director-general of the ICRC respectively, before finalising secondary legislation. Can the Minister confirm that that has taken place?
If democracy is to thrive, there needs to be equilibrium across a range of areas—from justice and the application of the rule of law, to the protection of human rights, freedom of speech, safeguards against corruption, effective efforts to counter extremism, integrity in the public sector, and the capability to face down external threats and protect our people. At a time when the world is more insecure and more dangerous, we are faced by authoritarian states bent on undermining the open international order on which so much of our security and prosperity rest.
The Commonwealth is more important than ever, and we must not allow any insinuation otherwise to undermine our efforts on its behalf. The organisation accounts for more than quarter of the membership of the United Nations, and more needs to be done with it. Crucially, through the Commonwealth charter, it is a champion of the sound values and principles that must prevail in the future if we are to build a better world. The Government must not forgo the opportunity to deepen that co-operation with Commonwealth partners and enhance the benefits of membership.
Membership of the Commonwealth can and must be seen as a route to a better future, fundamentally rooted in the noble values set out in the Commonwealth charter. We must strengthen intra-Commonwealth trade, build up the economies of countries struggling to attract inward investment, boost resilience, particularly when it comes to small island developing states, and do what is central to today’s debate: promote democracy and good governance through respectful understanding and collaboration.
For every tyrant sacrificing innocent lives in pursuit of unbridled power, there are thousands of hard-working, conscientious people working to make their contribution for a better future. The CPA and the ICRC embody that noble tradition, and the changes today will secure their continued success. We support the Bill, as we did in the last Parliament. We will encourage the Government to make the most of every opportunity that it confers.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
I call the Chair of the International Development Committee.
Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab)
It is a real honour to follow the hon. Member for Rutland and Stamford (Alicia Kearns). I agree with her high praise of both the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the International Committee of the Red Cross.
I am going to focus on the Red Cross/Red Crescent but should also say that personally I have benefited so much from the CPA. Its members have shared their experiences, and it is always a joy when they come to Parliament here—as parliamentarians, we love learning from each other. To build on the points made by the hon. Member for Rutland and Stamford, I should say that we are in a very fragile world. This is an opportunity for us to invest time, money and commitment into our Commonwealth family. We need each other right now more than ever.
Let me now turn to the International Committee of the Red Cross, and, indeed, the International Red Cross and Red Crescent movement as a whole. Every day, they provide hope for hundreds of thousands of people across the globe who are facing disasters of many kinds. I want to thank the ICRC personally for its consistent and valuable engagement with my Committee. For those reasons, I fully support the Bill.
The network consists of 80 million people, most of whom are volunteers. They help others facing disasters, conflict, health issues and social challenges, and I pay tribute to them. The movement consists of the ICRC, 191 national Red Cross and Red Crescent societies, and the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies. The ICRC itself has more than 18,000 staff in over 90 countries, and its work has gained it three Nobel peace prizes. At a time when more than 65 million people are fleeing 120 armed conflicts globally, the work of this organisation is vital and cannot be underestimated.
The ICRC is also crucial to parliamentary engagement with these situations, and I am sure that Members on both sides of the House have benefited from its wisdom. Its ability to provide the International Development Committee with up-to-date, impartial, trustworthy and relevant briefings from the ground—and it does that in private when necessary—has allowed successive IDCs to raise the profile of disasters, and, importantly, to hold Governments to account for their responses. In February this year, its teams in Egypt met our Committee to discuss the humanitarian situation in Gaza. The Egyptian team were co-ordinating all the supplies into Gaza at that point, and their work was phenomenal. Here was a group of volunteers who uprooted themselves to go where others needed their support the most, and what I witnessed was nothing short of remarkable.
The brave workers in this movement continue to pay the ultimate price. In 2023-24, six ICRC staff members were killed globally. As of 21 October, 21 Palestinian Red Crescent Society workers had been killed in Gaza and the west bank. Six members of the Magen David Adom, the Red Cross in Israel, have also been killed while helping others since 7 October 2023. Yet their colleagues continue the lifesaving medical care, food distributions, water and sanitation projects, supporting those who have been detained and reminding parties of their obligations under international humanitarian law in diabolical war zones. I should like us all to remember and pay tribute to their sacrifice today.
Early in my first tenure as Chair of the International Development Committee, I met the former ICRC president, Peter Maurer—virtually, as this was during the covid-19 pandemic. We discussed the impact of covid on conflict-affected communities, the situation in Yemen, Syria and Myanmar, and the need for the IDC to continue to shine a light on conflict-affected contexts around the world. That is a commitment that we continue to honour. In November last year, the Committee met the ICRC’s director for the Africa region to discuss Sudan. In the last Parliament, the ICRC submitted evidence for the inquiries into climate change, aid effectiveness, racism in the aid sector, and preventing sexual exploitation and abuse. Its submissions were hugely helpful as the Committee made its recommendations to the Government, and, again and again, they have proved to be an invaluable resource for Parliament on the application of international humanitarian law.
This much-needed Bill will allow the ICRC to continue to operate in the UK with its international mandate, and will provide the securities needed for it to continue its vital, impartial work with immunity from jurisdiction. I hope that the House gives it a safe passage.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
Monica Harding (Esher and Walton) (LD)
I am pleased to welcome the Bill and support the recognition of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the International Committee of the Red Cross as international organisations. As liberals we are internationalists, and the Bill fits with Liberal Democrat policies of international co-operation and the upholding of international humanitarian law by supporting the strengthening of international bodies and organisations that seek to forward those aims. Anything that can be done in this fragile global environment to strengthen global collaboration is something that we must support. Treating these organisations as international bodies would be a testament to the House’s shared commitment to international humanitarian law—which we want to be practised even in the most fraught zones of conflict—and our commitment to good governance and its promotion in the world.
The International Committee of the Red Cross is an independent body that plays a crucial role in protecting civilian lives in the midst of conflict and war zones. Today, when there are more than 120 ongoing armed conflicts in the world, its work is needed more than ever. It has been active over the last year in Ukraine, helping to ensure that over 4 million people have had access to water, heat and electricity. It has worked in Sudan distributing food assistance to more than 42,000 people and helping with water purification, benefiting more than 2 million people. In Gaza, it has been supporting basic needs and medical equipment. It has engaged the parties of the conflict and reminded them of their responsibilities under international humanitarian law, and has worked to facilitate the release, transfer and return of hostages and detainees from both sides. It is important that we strengthen its ability to do this work without fear. The new designation merely means that we are catching up with many of our peer nations: more than 110 states have now granted the ICRC relevant privileges and immunities—including every other member of the UN Security Council—in recognition of its unique mandate, which demands above all that it be allowed to maintain its neutrality.
The ICRC’s history is singularly bound up with the history of the Geneva conventions. It persuaded Governments to adopt the first and original Geneva convention 160 years ago this year. That treaty obliged armies to care for wounded soldiers, whatever side they were on, and introduced the red cross on the white background—the unifying emblem for medical services for any and every side, across borders and enemy lines. The committee’s remit expanded alongside the successive Geneva conventions, and in 1949 expanded to include civilians. I am sure Members will acknowledge, given current conflicts, that the ICRC’s obligation to civilians is as essential now as it was 75 years ago; indeed, in 2022 the UN estimated that 87% of casualties resulting from hostilities were civilians. In such zones, the ICRC is often almost alone among agencies in co-ordinating and delivering aid at scale, and, crucially, in having lines of communication with belligerents. For these reasons, the FCDO refers to the ICRC as an “essential partner” for achieving the UK’s humanitarian goals, as well as our wish to see international humanitarian law upheld.
Liberal Democrats believe in the universal conceptions of civilian rights asserted by the fourth Geneva convention and the additional protocols. In working across conflict zones with non-combatants—with prisoners, hostages and the wounded—the ICRC acts as a guardian of international humanitarian law. That status is possible only because the committee is understood to be neutral, applying universal rather than partisan principles. The privileges and immunities laid out in the Bill include inviolability for its archives and premises, which will assure parties to conflict of the confidentiality of its information and its independence. They also include the testimonial and narrow criminal immunities that will permit the ICRC’s staff to maintain the necessary conversations with proscribed groups, without which their most challenging work would not be possible. Neglecting to take these steps risks threatening the fundamental mission of the ICRC at a time when it is needed more than ever. As part of its mandate, the committee is in the vanguard of clarifying and developing international humanitarian law. Sadly, there has been an increase in permissive interpretations of IHL, and without the ICRC’s perspective and experience, the analyses through which we protect those caught in conflict zones would be poorer.
The Bill also provides for international organisation status to be conferred on the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, which is made up of 180 Commonwealth legislatures from 53 Commonwealth countries. As other Members have pointed out, this seems a particularly fitting moment for the Bill to reach the House, given that leaders are now gathering in Samoa for the 27th Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting. The Commonwealth is a rare organisation, being a voluntary association of states bound not by economic or security ties, but by shared values and, even more, by shared aspirations. As the instrument through which aspirations and values are pursued, the constitution of the CPA upholds shared principles of democracy, development, equality, human rights and environmental protections.
The CPA has promoted and strengthened parliamentary democracy since its establishment in 1911, and it allows for parliamentarians from across the Commonwealth to engage in dialogue and learn from each other. We support enhancing the status of the CPA by granting it protections and immunities that are comparable to those of the Commonwealth Foundation and the Commonwealth of Learning.
In 2006, the CPA published its benchmarks—87 indicators against which parliamentary democracies can be measured. These were updated in 2018 to include the UN’s sustainable development goals, which chimes with the Liberal Democrats’ manifesto commitment to put the SDGs at the heart of our international development policy. Although we were disappointed that the Labour party’s manifesto did not mention the SDGs, we have been encouraged by the fact that they were referenced in the Chatham House speech given by the Minister for Development last week. I hope that Members of all parties are united in our commitment to the SDGs.
The Commonwealth includes both the world’s most populous democracy and its least populous. Since 2018, 33 jurisdictions have undertaken assessments using the CPA criteria, and many have subsequently participated in technical assistance programmes—multi-year programmes that are focused on strengthening institutions and building parliamentary capacity. With its new status as an international inter-parliamentary organisation, the CPA will be enabled to sign the international agreements that it has been prevented from signing, hold Commonwealth Governments to account for actions against parliamentarians, provide member Parliaments with better governance, and participate fully in Commonwealth work, including at CHOGM.
I am glad that the House is considering this Bill, which is designed to support the work of the CPA and the ICRC by designating them as international organisations. This step will simplify the challenges that they both face in working so widely across the globe as essential vehicles for the delivery of international humanitarian aid and democracy, which is never more needed than now. It will underscore our commitment to the Commonwealth, keep the CPA headquartered in the UK and ensure that the ICRC remains secure in the UK. Anything that this House can do to ease the execution of their work, which has such noble aims, should be jumped at, and the Liberal Democrats support this Bill.
Bambos Charalambous (Southgate and Wood Green) (Lab)
I rise to support the Second Reading of this Bill, which is long overdue and, as we have heard, has cross-party support. It has received unwavering support in both this parliamentary Session and the previous Parliament, which is a testament to the importance that Members on both sides of this House place on its intentions. As we have heard, the debate is timely, given that the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting is taking place this week to address global security and the environmental and social challenges affecting us all.
The Commonwealth nations are united in their belief in the rule of law and the importance of democracy. Since its birth in 1911, the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association has promoted those enduring values as the Commonwealth’s parliamentary arm. With the threat of global conflict more present than ever, the work of the CPA to protect, develop and advance parliamentary democracy is more important than ever before. It is therefore crucial that the CPA, which is currently limited by its status as a UK charity, can participate fully in the international community. I am pleased that this Bill will address that issue, for the following reasons.
First, the Bill provides some 18,500 Commonwealth parliamentarians with the credibility and authority that they need to operate on the international stage. By granting similar privileges and immunities to those bestowed on comparable international organisations, the Bill places the CPA on an equal standing at international fora, so that members have the required platform to address global challenges. This also means that the organisation will enjoy a similar legal status to its parliamentary-strengthening counterparts such as the Inter-Parliamentary Union in Switzerland, reinforcing its reliability as a preferred partner for legislatures in capacity building.
My second point relates to the organisation’s scope. I welcome the Bill, because it extends the potential breadth of the CPA’s work by treating it like the other international organisations of which the UK is a member. This will allow the CPA to expand its programmes, projects and activities on parliamentary practice and procedure. As a UK charity, the CPA is currently subject to restrictions under UK legislation on the charity sector. For example, it is limited in its ability to sign international conventions and pursue political purposes. The CPA is therefore restricted in its ability to fully promote the values set out in the Commonwealth charter, and to address the priorities of its membership.
An example of the CPA’s priorities is found in its recommended benchmarks for democratic legislatures. These are 132 good governance indicators that Commonwealth legislators should measure themselves against, covering minimum standards on financial oversight, engagement with the media, and political petitioning, to name but a few. This Bill gives the CPA greater freedom to promote good governance programmes throughout the Commonwealth nations.
Furthermore, this Bill is important for maintaining the UK’s involvement in the CPA and the Commonwealth. The CPA’s past two annual conferences saw its governing body decide to relocate its headquarters to a member state that would provide the recognition that it needs, if this could not be given in the UK. The Bill does not just empower the organisation; it protects the UK’s global influence by keeping the CPA based here, so that our parliamentarians can have an active role in promoting parliamentary democracy and good governance globally.
The second organisation on which the Bill focuses, the International Committee of the Red Cross, does vital work to protect victims of violence around the world. With growing conflicts in Ukraine, Gaza, Sudan and elsewhere, the ICRC’s work as an independent humanitarian organisation is crucial. This Bill seeks to protect that independence. Clause 2 will provide for protected ICRC information to be
“exempt from any legal disclosure requirement imposed by a court or tribunal order in civil proceedings, or by a statutory provision or rule of law”,
with exemptions for a court order in criminal proceedings. The Bill allows us to give the ICRC the guarantee that any information shared with the UK Government is protected, so that it can continue to do crucial work in assessing victims of armed conflict.
The ICRC operates under a long-standing method of confidentiality, which means that it engages mainly in confidential bilateral dialogues with states and other parties, and it expects states to respect the confidentiality of any information shared with them. Were such information to be made public, it would hamper the ICRC’s ability to have confidential dialogue with, and to gain the trust of, conflict groups.
The ICRC needs to be perceived as a trustworthy organisation when seeking dialogue with all actors, so that it can have full access to frontlines and contested zones. Indeed, this allows the ICRC to continue to provide humanitarian assistance in conflict areas such as Gaza and Sudan. For example, it has delivered 962 metric tonnes of medical equipment amid the crisis in Gaza, and provided food assistance to over 42,000 people during the conflict in Sudan.
In addition, the Bill will recognise the ICRC as an international organisation. Its mandate to act in times of global conflict is based on international humanitarian law under the Geneva conventions of 1949. Over 110 states, including all the permanent members of the UN Security Council, have accorded the ICRC relevant privileges and immunities that are comparable to those of an international organisation. The absence of privileges and immunities provided by the UK has resulted in significant operational challenges for the ICRC, so it is important that the UK follows its international partners. That would allow the ICRC to operate in the UK and to manage its resources in a manner that is most beneficial to affected persons, preserving its principle of neutrality.
This Bill is a vital step towards ensuring that the CPA and the ICRC have the full confidence of the UK Government to promote our shared values of democracy and the rule of law, and to provide humanitarian assistance to those who need it. Having recently been elected to the UK executive committee of the CPA, I look forward to working with other Commonwealth parliamentarians to further those values and promote the standards of good governance that are necessary to make democracy work in today’s world.
With the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting taking place in Samoa this week, it is important that the UK places itself at the heart of global diplomacy, and the Bill signifies our intention to do so. This Bill is long overdue, and in granting privileges and immunities to the CPA and the ICRC, it further secures their future and shows that the UK is back to play an active and important role on the international stage.
Dame Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con)
It is a great honour to follow the hon. Member for Southgate and Wood Green (Bambos Charalambous), who I have attended many inter-parliamentary events with, and who is an active participant of the CPA, the Inter-Parliamentary Union, the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly and everything else he can be involved in. I refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.
My comments will be short, because we have seen this Bill before and this is probably the third time that I have spoken in one of these debates—definitely the second time on Second Reading. I am delighted that it has been brought back and that we will have the chance to get it to Royal Assent. It is vital for the reputation of this place, for our view and for the work we do with the CPA UK. I will restrict my comments to the CPA, which is the body with which I am most familiar.
On that note, I pay tribute to Maria Miller, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Stamford (Alicia Kearns) did. She tried many times to pass this Bill—she was an enormous advocate and a true champion for the CPA. I also pay tribute to Ian Liddell-Grainger, late of this parish, who stepped into the role of chairing the CPA with great aplomb, as hon. Members will be able to imagine, when the previous chair passed away suddenly. He made certain commitments at the last Commonwealth Parliamentary Conference in Ghana, and it is great that they will be fulfilled before the conference in New South Wales next month.
I first became aware of the CPA’s work when I was a Minister, because the CPA UK has a specific role with regards to modern slavery. It has ringfenced funding from the FCDO to promote across the Commonwealth the work that we can do together to tackle that heinous crime. In fact, I am grateful to have been called now, because I will shortly disappear to speak on a panel in a seminar that the CPA UK is holding on strengthening legislation to address modern slavery in supply chains and gender-based violence. I am delighted to be able to speak in this debate before I take part in the reality of the CPA’s work, which is an incredibly powerful tool for all of us.
If hon. Members have not yet been involved in an inter-parliamentary group, please join one. They will make friends for life, learn about what is going on in the rest of the world, and meet people from other legislatures —not just national legislatures. The great advantage of the CPA is that it involves Parliaments at all levels of Commonwealth countries, which means that there is a chance to meet people from devolved Parliaments, regional Parliaments and provincial Parliaments. When we are in this place, we are very focused on what is happening here. I do not think that many people outside Westminster are aware of what we are doing, but we are really focused on CPA and ICRC status, and we will be for some time to come this afternoon and beyond. Beyond that, however, people are looking at other things in other Parliaments.
Last week, at the IPU assembly in Geneva, it was wonderful to meet parliamentarians from around the world and hear what they are doing, what their focus is and what challenges they face. When we do, we learn that many of those are common—we all face the same challenges—but there are some unique things that other countries face that we need to be aware of, working on and debating in this place. That is where the CPA, the British Group Inter-Parliamentary Union, BIPA and the British-American Parliamentary Group can bring parliamentarians together and give us that insight.
I am delighted that the Bill is before us today and I support it wholeheartedly. I hope that, by the time we reach the next CPC next month, it has received Royal Assent, and the promises that Ian Liddell-Grainger gave to the conference last year can be delivered on. I wish the Minister all the best in his endeavours.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
I call Jas Athwal to make his maiden speech.
Jas Athwal (Ilford South) (Lab)
I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling me to make my maiden speech. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Dame Karen Bradley) on speaking with such passion and purpose. She spoke with clarity and detail, so I thank her for that.
I want to thank my neighbours, the great people of Ilford South, for entrusting me with the honour of serving them in this House. Each one of us here serves by the grace of God and the will of the people, and I will spend my life repaying the trust bestowed upon me by the great people of Ilford South.
At just seven years old, I travelled to Ilford from the Punjab, not speaking a word of English or knowing anyone outside my family, yet Ilford gave me a home, an outstanding education and opportunities to build a better life. Ilford gave me a community without whom I would not be standing here today.
It was in Ilford that I first met my right hon. Friend the Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting), and we began our journey together in local government a decade ago. I will be forever grateful for his help, guidance and friendship, and I feel immensely proud of his tireless work to reform our NHS and create a service fit for the future. Together with my predecessor, Mike Gapes, my right hon. Friend and I successfully fought to save the A&E at our local King George hospital from closure, cementing an enduring friendship and a formidable reputation for Redbridge Labour as a campaigning tour de force to be reckoned with.
Mike Gapes spent his parliamentary career speaking up for the marginalised communities, securing the future of our local NHS provision and steadfastly serving our local communities, all while staying true to his values. I endeavour to honour his legacy and continue his great work.
Ilford South is a unique and inspiring place—a town that people travel to from all across the world to call home. Since its formation in 1945, those eager to dedicate themselves to public service have fought for the honour to represent the people of Ilford South, including my predecessor, Sam Tarry. I would like to thank Sam for his service to the people of Ilford and for his work advocating for local access to essential public transport as shadow Minister for Buses and Local Transport.
My story is a story of Ilford South. Like so many of my neighbours, I was born overseas, raised speaking a different language and arrived in Ilford seeking a better life. Ilford South’s fantastic schools educated me, our high street’s businesses employed me and our local communities inspired me to be ambitious for my family, for the future of our home town and for our great country.
People travel from across the world to call Ilford home, because Ilford is a place of promise, a place of opportunity and a place where communities lift one another up, celebrating our diversity as well as our shared experience. It is a place where a Sikh can be invited to share iftar with his Muslim brothers and sisters, a place where I can join in the annual chariot festival at the Sri Selva Vinayagar temple, light a candle on the menorah during Hannukah, mark the festival of Janmashtami at the Albert Road mandir and every year turn on the Christmas lights in Ilford town centre.
As a Member of this House I am determined to deliver on the promise of Ilford South, to ensure that families can find a welcoming home, safe streets, exceptional schools and the opportunity to succeed. In Ilford South our communities came together to save King George Hospital’s A&E department, and now this Labour Government will save our NHS so that hard-working healthcare professionals can deliver the lifesaving care that patients deserve. I will continue to lift up communities, just as they once supported me to grow from a frightened seven-year-old immigrant to a Member of this House.
It is thanks to the democratic process of this country that I stand here today ready to serve my neighbours across Ilford South. In recent years we have all been reminded that the security of democracy is not guaranteed. Across the world, battles for free and democratic elections are hard fought, and the freedom we enjoy must always be resolutely defended. The great work of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, promoting good governance and sharing best practice across the Commonwealth, is to be admired and I am pleased that this debate recognises the need for a change to the status of association, and of the International Committee of the Red Cross, to enable them to better fulfil their vital endeavours.
My parents came from Pakistan with nothing. We came here from India with nothing. It is my mission to repay my debt to my parents, to the people of Ilford South and to the place that adopted me, raised me and gave me opportunities my parents could only dream of. Each day that I arrive in this place, I will never forget who sent me here, and I will not rest in my fight for my neighbours and for the bright future Ilford South deserves.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
What a pleasure it is to follow such a splendid maiden speech by the new hon. Member for Ilford South (Jas Athwal). As a third-generation immigrant myself, whose family lived in the city of Swansea for more or less exactly 100 years, I know precisely how he feels in his gratitude to the place in a new country that gave him every opportunity to develop his talents and abilities to the point at which he deservedly finds himself in this place. I am sure he will make maximum use of that opportunity. I particularly welcome his warm reference to his predecessor, Mike Gapes, who served in this House for no fewer than 27 years and was the epitome of moderate, patriotic Labour. He won respect on the Conservative side of the House as well as on his own side, and it was sad that a point came when he felt he could no longer remain a member of the Labour party, although I am glad to see from his Wikipedia entry that he is back in the fold today.
This uncontroversial Bill seeks to change the status of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the International Committee of the Red Cross, to convert each of them into what is known as a body corporate. These are sensible proposals, which I broadly support. However, as stated during the Sir David Amess Adjournment debate on the rising of the House on 12 September, there is one other organisation, with which I am rather familiar, that requires the same change in status as the CPA and the ICRC, to make it into a body corporate too. That organisation is the office that supports the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament, and this Bill presents us with the timeliest opportunity to achieve that necessary change. Indeed, it is a perfect fit, so I trust that the House will bear with me while I explain the serious conflict of interest that has arisen, why that conflict matters to Parliament and how it can easily be rectified with a simple addition to the Bill before the House today.
For the benefit of newer Members in the Chamber, I should explain that the ISC is a cross-party Committee of both Houses of Parliament created by statute in 1994. Under the Justice and Security Act 2013, the ISC was given the legal responsibility for overseeing the UK’s intelligence community on behalf of Parliament, yet Parliament’s intent, as expressed in that Act, is currently being undermined. Right hon. and hon. Members might be surprised to learn that the ISC’s office, with a very small number of staff, belongs to the Cabinet Office, despite the ISC overseeing certain sensitive organisations within the Cabinet Office. They would be right to be surprised, because that is indeed a fundamental conflict of interest, which is why, when the Justice and Security Act was passed, the Cabinet Office was supposed to be only the temporary home of the ISC’s office. Yet here we are, more than 10 years later, with the Committee staff still beholden to, vulnerable within, and unfairly pressured and even victimised by the very part of the Executive that the Committee is charged with scrutinising and holding to account on behalf of Parliament.
The Executive should not be able to constrain and control the Committee’s democratic oversight on Parliament’s behalf by exerting control over the ISC’s small staff team to prevent them from doing their job independently. Such control means that part of the Cabinet Office can—and does—starve the team of resources so that the ISC’s staff are unable to fulfil the Committee’s legal responsibilities. That completely contravenes and disregards a clear ministerial undertaking given by the then Deputy Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Sir Oliver Dowden), before the recent general election about vital extra resources for the ISC staff.
Control by the Cabinet Office also means that it can stigmatise and penalise the ISC’s staff, blaming them for the Committee’s robust scrutiny, with damaging consequences for their future careers in the civil service. Such deplorable behaviour has included repeatedly downgrading highly positive assessments, submitted by me as ISC Chairman at the time, of staff performance in recent years. In reality, the members of the ISC in the last Parliament valued the Committee’s staff very highly indeed, as I believe all members have since the Committee was first established 30 years ago. We certainly found the arrangements that I have described totally unacceptable.
The ISC therefore formally resolved, by a unanimous vote across all three political parties on the Committee, that it is essential for parliamentary democracy and its scrutiny system for the Committee’s office to move out from under the control of the Executive—that is, from the Cabinet Office—and instead to be established as an independent body corporate with a link to Parliament rather than to the Executive. That unanimous decision was confirmed by the members of the Committee at its meeting on 19 March, following expert and authoritative external advice that it is within the ISC’s power to take such a step and to determine the suitable mechanisms for implementing it.
That constitutional change, which the Cabinet Office has predictably attempted to ignore, is essential to protect the separation of powers. It is also extremely easy to achieve. It requires a very short amendment to the Justice and Security Act to change the status of the ISC’s office. The amendment would establish the office as a body corporate to support the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament and safeguard the independence of the Committee itself.
I had hoped that the amendment would be included in the new legislative programme. Unfortunately, but unsurprisingly in the Committee’s absence since Parliament was dissolved for the general election, the Cabinet Office has hitherto managed to block it. However, that is to underestimate the previous members of the Committee, from both sides of the House and in both Chambers, who are convinced that the Committee’s office cannot and must not continue to be controlled by the Cabinet Office.
The Bill, in seeking to change the constitutional status of the CPA and the ICRC and allow better provision for their staffing arrangements, is the ideal vehicle through which to achieve the same for the ISC’s beleaguered office. It is the obvious place to include a short amendment to the Justice and Security Act to change the status of the ISC’s staff organisation too. We must not pass up this opportunity: parliamentary time is precious, and there may not be another suitable vehicle during this Parliament.
As a measure to secure democratic oversight, I am confident that the amendment should and would secure cross-party support in both Houses. Prior to the election, both the then Government and the then Opposition seemed to accept that this reform was needed, which does rather beg the question why it has not yet happened. I intend to return to the issue at a later stage of the Bill with an amendment, and I trust, for the reasons I have set out, that the House will support it.
Having chaired the Intelligence and Security Committee for the past four years, and having also served on it throughout the 2010-15 Parliament, I reiterate what I said in 2019 after more than four years as Chairman of the Defence Committee: it is better to stop while people wish you to carry on, than to carry on until people wish you to stop—[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] I am glad to have that endorsement. Hopefully, I can still be a friend of both Committees on the Floor of this Chamber, while giving support to my successors in office.
It was as extraordinary as it was shameful that no Prime Minister saw fit to meet with the Intelligence and Security Committee during the entirety of the last Parliament, although to her credit, during her short time at No. 10, Liz Truss did offer to do so. Perhaps the latest occupant of Downing Street will show greater respect towards a body that has consistently undertaken sensitive inquiries, and produced reports of the highest quality and the soundest judgment over the past 30 years, largely because of the calibre and integrity of its professional director and her dedicated staff. Let us now do the right thing by them all.
Adam Jogee (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Sir Julian Lewis). I enjoyed his detailed and comprehensive remarks.
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate on this important Bill, but I start by paying tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Jas Athwal) for his maiden speech, which shared his story and the promise of our country. I declare my interest as co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group for the Commonwealth, a role I was elected to before the summer recess, and my newly minted role as a member of the executive of the UK branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association.
The Commonwealth is all about creating opportunities, and never more so than today, because I have the opportunity to give my first speech without a time limit, which I will enjoy. I welcome the Minister to his place. It is the first time I have had the opportunity to speak with him on the Front Bench. I am looking forward to working with him and the Foreign Office team in the years ahead. I have known my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary for most of my life. I had the benefit of being his constituency twin during the election campaign, so he had the great pleasure of being able to visit Newcastle-under-Lyme and enjoy our warm hospitality, not least at the Victoria pub on Brampton Road.
The Bill has been through the wars and was rudely interrupted, as we have heard, by the general election. I am very pleased that the Government have brought it forward so speedily. Where we can work together and make cross-party progress, we should do so as often as we can. I join the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Rutland and Stamford (Alicia Kearns), in acknowledging the work of the former Member for Basingstoke, Dame Maria Miller. I also acknowledge all the CPA staff, led by the excellent Sarah Dickson, who I believe may be watching the deliberations this afternoon.
The Bill is about our standing on the world stage, and our role as a leader in the fight for human rights, respect, decency and togetherness. As the Minister pointed out, it grants international status to both the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the International Committee of the Red Cross, enabling both those reputable and long-standing bodies to benefit from the immunities and privileges of all other international bodies, as set out in clauses 1 and 2. Those immunities and privileges include the power to confer the legal capacities of a body corporate on the CPA and the ICRC; to grant the organisations, their information and staff certain privileges and immunities commensurate with their functional needs; to provide that references to international organisations in general legislation include from now on references to the CPA and the ICRC; and to allow for certain confidential information.
As ever, the United Kingdom must lead by example, so although the Bill may feel technical in nature, as the shadow Minister said, there is a wider point here about our leadership at home and abroad. That is why it is so important that we keep the CPA headquartered here in the United Kingdom. The Bill has my full support and, I hope, judging by the comments of the Liberal Democrat spokesperson and the shadow Minister, it will have support right across the House later this afternoon.
This may not be the most oversubscribed Second Reading debate since the general election, but that should not be misinterpreted as a lack of support for, a lack of faith in, or a lack of commitment to the Commonwealth, its legacy and its potential. With that in mind, and given that the Bill will help improve our reputation with our Commonwealth partners and friends enormously, I wish to take a moment to talk about the Commonwealth, and what it means for today’s world and for people in Newcastle-under-Lyme and right across the global community. As we look to the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting taking place in the Pacific, we can see that this Bill is an important and long overdue step being taken by the United Kingdom.
In Samoa, Heads of Government, women, men and young people from across the Commonwealth will come together to share ideas, best practice, values and thoughts for moving our global family forward, and for making their deliberations mean something in each of our communities and nations. That is important, because our world is in a state of real flux. We at once seem ever more interconnected and as though we are being driven further and further apart. Political leaders across the world seem more interested in putting up barriers and walls than tearing them down, more interested in what divides us than what unites us, and some have no interest in bringing people together. That is a matter of deep concern to me, but it also shows the power and the importance of the Commonwealth family of nations.
The Commonwealth is a voluntary organisation of 56 independent and equal countries—perhaps not equal in size of economy or population, but equal as their leaders sit round the table, engage and listen. Our Commonwealth family is made up of about 2.5 billion people, and includes both advanced economies and developing countries, sun and snow, global north and global south, palm trees and oaks, kangaroos and cattle, and women, men and children who all deserve a chance to get on in life, to succeed and to feel safe and secure.
Adam Jogee
I will happily give way to the Member of Parliament who represents my in-laws in South Antrim.
Robin Swann
The hon. Member makes the case on international relationships. The right hon. Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Dame Karen Bradley) referenced the devolved Assemblies; may I ask him to acknowledge the contribution of the CPA branches across the devolved Assemblies, in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales? I served as chair of the Northern Ireland branch of the CPA, and look forward to joining the hon. Member as an executive member of the CPA branch here.
Adam Jogee
It is a pleasure to have my genuine friend intervene. He served honourably and nobly in the Northern Ireland Assembly. His point about the importance of the CPA branch in Northern Ireland, and of branches across our United Kingdom and the Commonwealth, is well made.
As the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Monica Harding) noted, 33 of the Commonwealth’s members are small states, and they include many island nations, such as Jamaica, the land of my grandfather’s birth. There is something very important about the leaders of small islands and small nations being at the table with the leaders of countries such as Singapore, Canada, New Zealand, Australia and, yes, the United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland.
We all know that the Commonwealth’s roots go back to the British empire, and that is a complicated history for all of us. We should not forget, or airbrush out, in taking the steps forward that this Bill will help us to take. We must embrace our history and our collective experiences. My grandfather came here to serve King and country on a British passport in the 1940s. We would not have beaten the Germans on the beaches of Normandy, or at Gallipoli, without the bravery and valour of young men—black, white and Asian—from across the Commonwealth, or the colonies as they were then.
Today, any country can join the modern Commonwealth. The last two countries to join were Gabon and Togo in 2022. Their admittance was interesting because neither had age-old colonial ties to the United Kingdom—indeed, there was very little that bound them with Britain—and that in many ways proved a step in the right direction. There is more to do on this. I am very proud of my Zimbabwean roots, but it is a matter of deep personal sadness that a nation that once hosted the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting in the presence of Her late Majesty now sits on the outside looking in. With membership comes responsibilities, expectations and standards, as is the case for any club or team one joins. That is why the Bill is so important. I hope that the discussion on Zimbabwe is given a thorough and detailed hearing when the leaders gather in Samoa.
I am one of few Members who can claim to represent the birthplace of a leader of a Commonwealth country. The sixth Prime Minister of Australia, Joseph Cook, started off in the Labor party but ended up a Tory—[Interruption.] I thought Opposition Members would enjoy that. He was born and raised in Silverdale in my constituency, and after leaving our shores for Australia, he went on to hold the highest role in the land. It is a legacy we are very proud of in Newcastle-under-Lyme. A couple of weeks ago, I was at St Luke’s primary school in Silverdale, where there is a fantastic plaque that honours the memory of Cook and cherishes the ties between our community and Australia.
The Bill is important, because it heralds, I hope, a change in British Government policy. We cannot just engage when it suits us, or when we feel like it; we cannot and must not allow the bonds to fray, the contact to cease, or let the phone calls go unanswered. We have seen many examples across Africa and the Caribbean and, increasingly, in the Pacific of the Chinese Government having people on speed dial. The perception—certainly mine and in many other parts of the world—is that the United Kingdom, for at least the past 30 years or so, has failed effectively and properly to seize the opportunities that the Commonwealth provides.
I am pleased that the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary are both going to the Pacific—there are competing demands on senior colleagues from all of us every day—but Her late Majesty Queen Elizabeth always said that she had to be seen to be believed, and she was right. That is why is important for the Prime Minister to make the admittedly long journey to the meeting. Our departure from the European Union was meant to lead to a global Britain agenda, and I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to make sure that that agenda becomes a reality. The Bill and the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association will help us to do that. They show our allies and friends across the Commonwealth that we take our relationships and our responsibilities seriously, that we understand the example we must set, and that we are determined to build, as Gordon Brown would put it, a renewed Commonwealth with a renewed purpose for new times.
As the hon. Member for South Antrim (Robin Swann) noted, if the Bill is passed, colleagues will engage with parliamentarians from across the Commonwealth through the CPA, as I will in the period ahead, and will have something positive to say, which is important. The viability and future of the Commonwealth is on the line if we do not get this new relationship right. The new Government have a lot to do to get our country back on track, and this is part of it. Being good stewards at home and good neighbours abroad are not mutually exclusive. We must do both, and we can do that by supporting the Bill.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
I call Jack Rankin to make his maiden speech.
Jack Rankin (Windsor) (Con)
It gives me great pleasure to make my maiden speech, and it is appropriate to do so in a debate on the Commonwealth of nations. First, I pay tribute to the maiden speech by the hon. Member for Ilford South (Jas Athwal). He spoke passionately about the opportunity and the community that Ilford has afforded him, and his commitment to his people there. I am sure that he will make a great contribution to Parliament.
We share a set of values with our Commonwealth kin: a belief in the rule of law, parliamentary democracy, freedom of speech, property rights, and innocent until proven guilty by a jury of our peers, all built on a shared constitutional heritage. I want to fight for those principles during my time in Parliament.
My Windsor constituency is at the beating heart of Parliament, because it is not just a series of beautiful towns and villages, although that is undoubtedly true; it also encapsulates the glorious history of our constitution, the evolution of our parliamentary democracy and the very best of our shared Commonwealth of nations. My predecessor was a son of the Commonwealth, with a Ghanaian father and an English mother. Adam Afriyie came from a tough background, growing up on a council estate in Peckham, but he became a successful tech entrepreneur and the first black Conservative Member of Parliament. Adam spent his years in Parliament campaigning against Heathrow’s third runway—I will continue that campaign—as well as supporting many local good causes, including the children’s charity, Sebastian’s Action Trust. I also appreciated Adam’s work on fintech and his role as the longest serving chair of the Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology. As someone with an academic background in mathematics and physics, it is clear to me that this place needs more of a quantitative and scientific approach. Above all, Adam is a good man and a person I am proud to call a friend. I wish him and his family all the best for the future.
Windsor’s link to the royal family is self-evident: the Conqueror first built the castle, and the royal house proudly carries our name. But fewer know that the Windsor constituency was the home of monarchs long before the arrival of the Norman yoke. Old Windsor was an important palace of Saxon kings, documented as a defended royal manor in Edward the Confessor’s time, but evidence suggests that there were royal connections since at least the ninth century.
William the Conqueror chose the site for Windsor castle, a strategically important position high above the key medieval route to London on the River Thames. It was part of a ring of motte and bailey castles around London, each a day’s march from the city and the next castle, allowing for easy reinforcements. The first king to use Windsor castle as a royal residence was William’s son, Henry I. Perhaps he was attracted by the proximity of the royal hunting forest—then Windsor forest, now Windsor Great Park in the centre of my constituency. I represent most of the communities around it, including Ascot, Sunninghill and Sunningdale, where my wife Sarah and I have made our family home with our sons, Edward and Christopher.
Henry’s great-grandson John was besieged by the barons in 1214 and signed Magna Carta the following year. Whether it was signed north of the river in Wraysbury or south on Runnymede meadows is lost to time. Whichever the true site, both are in the Windsor constituency, thanks to the most recent boundary changes, and we welcome Runnymede meadow into the patch, together with the Surrey villages of Englefield Green and Virginia Water, as well as the east of Langley in Slough.
Whether Wraysbury or Runnymede, it remains undeniable that there is a propensity for there to be too much water in those places. One of the things I will advocate for in this place is proper flood defences for Datchet, Wraysbury, Horton and Old Windsor. Disgracefully, if the River Thames scheme is built as currently envisaged, those villages will be the only parts of the Thames, from Taplow to the North sea, that remain materially undefended. What was proposed as channel 1 of the River Thames scheme must be funded centrally as national strategic infrastructure. This House will hear from me again on that topic, I assure you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
In the handful of weeks I have been here, I have already lost count of the times this place has been incorrectly referred to as the “mother of Parliaments”—a misquoting of John Bright. It is England that Bright referred to as the mother of Parliaments. In that speech, Bright was arguing for what became the Reform Act of 1867, which, for the first time, enfranchised part of the urban male working class, from which I hail. England is the mother of Parliaments because of the principle, established in Anglo-Saxon England, that yes, we owe our allegiance to His Majesty the King—then in Old Windsor; now in new Windsor—but within a framework that protects our ancient individual liberties, as articulated in Magna Carta. That heritage is proudly ours. The Saxon Great Councils started to be called Parliaments by the 13th century; the principles underpinning them—among other things, that the King could only make law and raise taxation with the consent of the community of the realm—now belong to the whole Commonwealth and the wider free world.
That concept—that taxation should be raised only with the consent of the community of the realm—should give the new Government pause for thought. I recommend it as a good conservative instinct. In this House, those on the Treasury Bench—the Crown—should be cautious about levying taxation, especially if punitive or excessive, without gaining wide common counsel. As this new Government raise taxes in breach of their manifesto commitments, my counsel would be that taxation will gain wide consent if, and only if, it leads to a material improvement in the quality of public services. That will not happen without quite radical public sector reforms to drive productivity improvements, which I seriously urge the Government to consider.
Tax without proper consent is something that Governments over the years have come a cropper over—most famously the British in North America in the 18th century. I hope our American cousins may rejoin the Commonwealth one day. It is often they who remember our shared constitutional heritage most keenly. The Magna Carta memorial in my constituency was erected in 1957 by the American Bar Association, which alongside us and our Commonwealth kin is the beneficiary of that great legacy.
I assure the House that I will be bringing its attention on many occasions to the extraordinary wealth of cultural and historical riches, tied to the history of our great country, that originate in my constituency—from the foundation of Eton college in 1440 and of Royal Holloway University by Victorian social pioneers over 170 years ago, as one of the first places in Britain where women could access higher education, to the establishment of Ascot racecourse in 1711, when Queen Anne found a flat expanse of heathland that she thought would be perfect for racing horses. That tradition continues over 330 years later; I say to Labour Members and particularly to the new Ministers that it is a fantastic place for a freebie. Please see my updated entry in the register of interests next month.
The foundation of Combermere barracks in 1796 and of Victoria barracks in 1853 made Windsor a proud double-garrison town. We owe our armed services so much for protecting the legacy of which I am talking. We will remember them. Of course, none of this compares to the events of 1996, with the foundation of the great institution of Legoland.
I cannot give my maiden speech without turning to the house of Windsor, our British royal house and the reigning house of our brothers and sisters in the other 14 Commonwealth realms. It gives us enormous pride that King George V proclaimed:
“Our House and Family shall be styled and known as…Windsor”.
It was felt inappropriate during the first world war that the royal family be called Saxe-Coburg-Gotha as London was being bombed by aircraft of the same name. It was thought that Windsor sounded necessarily regal and English; I wholeheartedly agree.
We have now seen our fifth monarch of the house of Windsor, albeit that it is sometimes better that we forget about the second. They have all made Windsor their home, but few monarchs will be more associated with Windsor than Her late Majesty of blessed memory, Elizabeth. Our late Queen made Windsor her principal weekend retreat—indeed, she made it her home—but retreating was something that she very rarely did. Her great passion was the Commonwealth. On her 21st birthday in South Africa in 1947, she dedicated her life to the service of the Commonwealth, famously saying:
“I declare before you all that my whole life, whether it be long or short, shall be devoted to your service and the service of our great imperial family to which we all belong”.
Didn’t she just? She was the living embodiment every day of the model of Christian service and of the history and continuity of this country and its constitutional monarchy—the very essence of our great nation. Throughout her reign, as the then Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip said on her passing, she was
“the keystone in the vast arch of the British state”—[Official Report, 9 September 2022; Vol. 719, c. 499.]
But she was more than that. She was head of state, yes, but she was also head of the nation and, more widely, the head of our family of nations. She deeply understood the role to which she had been called in the context of a millennium of constitutional development, lots of which is local to my constituency but relevant to free people the world over.
I come from a much more modest background, but all of us in this House, like Windsor’s Elizabeth the Confessor, would do well to appreciate that we are but the momentary trustees of our country. As Burke said:
“Society is…a contract…between those who are living, those who are dead, and those who are to be born.”
Yes, we have a responsibility to our constituents today, but we also have the shared inheritance of our history and our great parliamentary democracy, and we all have a duty to uphold the great traditions of our past in order to safeguard its future.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
I call Lillian Jones to make her maiden speech.
Lillian Jones (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow the contribution of the hon. Member for Windsor (Jack Rankin) to this debate on the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the International Committee of the Red Cross. It does not need saying how important the work of both those organisations is.
I have listened to many hon. Members delivering maiden speeches in this House and have been struck by all their excellent contributions, but I stand before the House today with immense gratitude and a profound sense of responsibility. It is the greatest honour for me to have been elected to this House to represent the people of Kilmarnock and Loudoun, a place that I have called home for nearly 20 years. I have been a local councillor serving the ward of Kilmarnock West and Crosshouse for 12 of those years. I moved to Kilmarnock after meeting my partner Nettie, and we have been together ever since. She is my best friend and my anchor—I just don’t know what I would do without her.
I want to extend my love and my thanks to my family for their everlasting support and encouragement. I am thinking today of my aunty June, who was only 10 years older than I am. We said goodbye to her just six days before the election, but I know she will be watching over me with my gran and Arthur. Arthur was my granda, but I fondly remember that as a child I would call him by his name, which just stuck. As Members can imagine, that raised curiosity among the teachers at my school, who would always inquire if Arthur was my gran’s boyfriend, much to my gran’s amusement. As they look down on me, I hope I make them proud.
I thank my friends and colleagues who gave up every spare moment to help me. My friend Maureen, the Labour group leader on East Ayrshire council, is a woman like no other. She invested time and energy in me and has mentored me since my first election to East Ayrshire council in 2012. Despite her own personal challenges, she was determined to do all she could to get me here to this place and to play a huge part in my campaign. Barry, who is known affectionately as our local stato genius, kept us well drilled and well informed—and, boy, did that pay off, with a 5,000 majority. I would not be standing here today if it were not for the contributions of those who believed in me and supported me throughout this journey. I thank every one of them.
I pay tribute to my immediate predecessor, Alan Brown, who was first elected to this House in 2015 and was committed to working hard for his constituents throughout his time in Parliament. I wish Alan and his family well for the future.
In 1945, Clarice Shaw was the first woman elected to this place to represent the people of Kilmarnock on a platform of jobs for all, industry in the service of the nation, public ownership, a welfare state from cradle to grave and a new national health service. Some 57 years later, I took up a post in our national health service. I was later privileged to join a team of dedicated colleagues who helped to shape me into the person I am today. It was and still is an honour to have been part of the hospital at night team, which was first launched in Glasgow in 2007, and to have forged many friendships that will last a lifetime. I am thinking today of my former NHS colleagues; I pay tribute to all members of the team who selflessly did their duty throughout the coronavirus pandemic and who continue to do so in sometimes very challenging circumstances.
Clarice was a tireless campaigner for equality, an unwavering agitator for peace and a dedicated socialist Member of Parliament. Her legacy serves as a beacon of hope and inspiration for all of us who believe in the power of collective action and social justice. Sadly, just days after Clarice was sworn in, she became seriously ill and was unable to return to Parliament to deliver her maiden speech. In October 1946, Clarice stood down. Sadly, she died a few days later.
As a working-class woman elected to this House, I reflect on Clarice Shaw’s contributions and am inspired to carry forward her vision into today’s world, where it is just as relevant now as in 1945. It is a vision in which peace prevails over conflict, co-operation triumphs over division and equality is not just an aspiration but a reality for every citizen—one that ensures that our national health service will be there when people need it most and for future generations.
The second woman elected to represent Kilmarnock and Loudoun was Cathy Jamieson in 2010, although by that time she had already been a parliamentarian for 11 years in the Scottish Parliament. Her wealth of knowledge and experience saw her appointed to the official Opposition Front Bench in 2011 as shadow Economic Secretary to the Treasury. Cathy will be a hard act to follow, but I will do my absolute best. Cathy is also arguably Kilmarnock football club’s biggest fan. I was delighted to learn that the club won the 2024 best-kept war memorial competition for its satellite garden and memorial, thanks to Kilmarnock’s branch of Royal British Legion Scotland and to the club ambassador, Raymond Montgomerie.
My constituency is not only famous for having the oldest professional football club in Scotland, or for its famous sons such as Nobel peace prize winner John Boyd Orr, who was born in Kilmaurs in 1880, Andrew Fisher, the fifth Prime Minister of Australia, who was born in Crosshouse in 1862, and Sir Alexander Fleming from Darvel, who discovered penicillin. This month, it may interest the House to know that in Killie we are unique: we celebrate Halloween before anyone else in the country. This year is even more unusual, because we are celebrating Halloween before the clocks go back—something that cannot happen in the rest of the country.
On the last Friday of October, Killieween comes to life, supporting our local economy, with weans young and old in fancy dress out in the streets trick-or-treating. Over recent years, it has become a favourite date in the calendar for communities across the constituency. It is fantastic to see so many schools, volunteers, businesses and organisations such as Kilmarnock community fire station putting effort, energy and pride into making Halloween such an exciting time for so many children across the towns and villages of my constituency.
I am shaped by the people who have loved, mentored, taken a chance on and believed in me. I stand before the House today as a proud public servant with a combined 34 years of public service. Being in the service of people is when I am at my best. This is who I am. I know that my life and work experiences will serve me well in the role of Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun.
David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale) (Con)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a great honour to serve under your stewardship for the first time, and to follow the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Lillian Jones). I lived in her constituency in Scotland’s Moscow for a number of years. It was not quite a socialist republic at the time, but my children attended Fenwick primary school and I have many happy memories of the constituency.
I was inspired by the hon. Member for Ilford South (Jas Athwal), whose story of the opportunities that are available to grasp should be inspiring to everyone who comes to this country. I very much enjoyed the maiden speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Jack Rankin): it was a tour de force on parts of English history with which I was not fully familiar, although I do not know whether that will help him in his service on the Scottish Affairs Committee. One thing we have in common is that as a new Member of the House I was required to serve on that Committee: I was on it for five years and it was indeed a learning experience.
In speaking in favour of the Bill, I will concentrate my remarks on the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. I am particularly pleased that the Minster is taking the Bill forward, because I know he has played a positive part in the workings of the association and has been part of many previous delegations. I have also had that opportunity: like the hon. Members for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee), for South Antrim (Robin Swann) and for Southgate and Wood Green (Bambos Charalambous), I am pleased to have been elected to the executive of the CPA, which hopes to meet for the first time in its new guise this afternoon after the debate has concluded.
It is extremely important that we understand the significance that Commonwealth countries placed on this change. It is all very well to have a discussion about the procedural niceties, but this issue was impacting on the United Kingdom’s reputation within the Commonwealth. I have twice led delegations to South Africa, and this issue was top of the list of issues to be discussed by the Speaker of the South African Parliament. When the Speaker of the Ghanaian Parliament visited this country, it was the top issue on their agenda. It impeded the discussion of other issues that we might want to raise, so it was vital for that impediment to discussion to be removed.
As one or two other speakers have touched on, particularly the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme, malign forces are at work. When we were in South Africa, we were attacked by the Economic Freedom Fighters party as neo-colonialists. The structure of the international Commonwealth Parliamentary Association was given as one reason we were neo-colonialists, because the organisation was not a full standing international organisation, but an English charity. People used that to further their arguments.
This Bill is not just a nice thing to do, but vital to ensuring that we can be fully participative and respected in discussions. If we want to raise difficult issues—there are difficult issues to raise in the Commonwealth, in particular the assault on the LGBT community in many Commonwealth countries—we cannot then be confronted with, “What are you doing about this issue that is important to us?” It is important that we are taking the Bill forward, and undertakings were given at the last Commonwealth Parliamentary Association international conference.
I join others in paying tribute to colleagues. Ian Liddell-Grainger had stepped in to be the head of the international Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, having been the chair of the CPA UK when the incumbent passed away suddenly. Ian, as those who know him will appreciate, could have been a diplomat in another life. He was able to assure those present at the summit that something would be done in the UK and that the changes would be made. Dame Maria Miller, in her usual tenacious way, sought to do everything possible to bring those measures forward. I was personally disappointed that the Bill was not in the last Government’s King’s Speech, because it was considered too niche, whereas various things that I or my constituents would have considered niche did appear. However, Dame Maria pursued the Bill through other channels and got so very close to it being enacted. I am delighted that the new Government have taken it forward and that it got through the House of Lords without undue difficulty.
Although there are other issues to be raised around the Bill, I hope that it can complete a straightforward parliamentary passage, because not only do we have the Commonwealth leaders event in Samoa, but in two weeks’ time we have the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association conference in New South Wales. It will be very important—in particular to me, as I have been tasked with reporting to the conference what is happening with the Bill—that I can report positively that the Bill has passed Second Reading today, that we have heard across the Chamber that it has widespread and cross-party support, and that it has the Government’s impetus behind it to deliver Royal Assent as soon as possible. That is the message that I hope and believe I can take to the conference.
The final point I would like to make to the Minister is that the CPA UK branch is an asset to the Government. The Government, and in particular the FCDO, need to work more closely with the branch, because MPs on delegations can be a soft power source that the Government cannot be. Many Members who have been on delegations find that posts, consulates, embassies and high commissions welcome their visits, because MPs are able to raise issues or ask questions, or they themselves are able to ask questions or raise issues, that they would not otherwise be able to do if it were a formal ministerial event. Going forward, I ask them to work with our CPA UK branch, so that we can work as effectively as we can on behalf of the United Kingdom and deliver some of those soft power benefits.
Alicia Kearns
With the leave of the House, and with thanks to all Members who have contributed today, I want to reiterate the Opposition’s support for the Bill. I also want to repeat my tribute to my right hon. Friend the former Member for Basingstoke, Dame Maria Miller, for her unending work to promote the Bill, and to my noble Friends Baroness Anelay and Lord Ahmad for their respective roles. It shines a positive light on this place that a private Member’s Bill can be introduced, supported by a Conservative Government and then reintroduced by a new Labour Government. I hope we will see it complete its passage into law in the same spirit of co-operation.
Turning to today’s debate, it is a delight to serve opposite the Minister of State at the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty). He has a genuine passion for the Commonwealth and a commitment to building friendships across the world. I am sure he will continue to do all that he can to build those friendships and ensure that the Commonwealth goes from success to success.
The Chair of the International Development Committee, the hon. Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion), set out not only the value but the joy that the CPA brings. She is absolutely right that the ICRC is an organisation of hope, and that its losses—those it has lost in the course of its work—demonstrate just how important it is and how important it is that we support its work. I also thank her for reminding me that I, too, should thank it for all the submissions it made to the Foreign Affairs Committee when I was the Chair of that Committee over the last few years.
The Liberal Democrat spokesperson, the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Monica Harding), has an encyclopaedic knowledge of the ICRC. I have to say that I learnt many things I was not aware of before the debate, so I thank her for that.
The speech by my friend the hon. Member for Southgate and Wood Green (Bambos Charalambous) demonstrates the importance of the CPA’s work. He is a representation of the importance of what the CPA does for this Chamber, which is bring people together from across the Chamber to build friendships that matter. The Chamber can often appear combative and to some extent rude, frankly, in the way that we speak to each other, but behind the scenes it is vital that we have the relationships that enable us to get things done. I am grateful to count him as a very good friend.
Turning to my right hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Dame Karen Bradley), who I am sure is rushing back in a frenzy to the Chamber from her meeting with the CPA, it is quite impressive for her to make the same arguments so cogently for a third time and to find a way to structure them so very differently. I pay tribute to her work on modern-day slavery, which is exceptional and demonstrates the importance of the CPA’s work. She has made a demonstrable difference to the way Commonwealth countries around the world have tackled modern-day slavery within their own countries.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Ilford South (Jas Athwal) on making his maiden speech. It is quite clear that he has a passion for the home that his communities gave him. He has clear aspirations for the communities he serves, and I wish him every success in delivering on those aspirations.
My right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Sir Julian Lewis), the former Chair of the Intelligence and Security Committee, set out his concerns for the freedoms and protections of the Committee staff. Scrutiny is always at the forefront of his mind. I am sure that he was heard by the Minister, although I am sure that his staff from the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office in the Box were even more excited to hear the news that there will be an amendment in Committee. The Opposition will review his amendment very closely—he knows how closely I hold the importance of scrutiny in my own heart. It was very interesting to hear the challenges that he faced as the Committee Chair in the last few years.
The hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee) spoke of the Commonwealth family, although I suspect that perhaps in preparing for today’s debate he accepted a challenge to try to get “kangaroo” into Hansard. I congratulate him on doing just that. The maiden speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Jack Rankin was typical in the tribute that it paid to his predecessor. It is clear that he will be a passionate campaigner for civil liberties and low taxes during his time in this House, but I gently suggest that he may find his declared campaign to prevent a third runway at Heathrow at odds with the CPA’s own demands on the airport, which are rather significant. He may have to come to terms with that before he applies for any future delegations.
The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Lillian Jones)—I apologise if that was not accurately pronounced—showed heartfelt gratitude to those who have supported her to come to this place. She brought the history of her constituency to life in her maiden speech.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell) demonstrated so well the courtesies of this House. It is so important that, as we move forward as a new Parliament, we do not forget those small courtesies, whether it be paying tribute to a predecessor or recognising the contributions of other Members. I thank him for doing that. He also raised the importance of the CPA when it comes to the challenges and disagreements that we have within that family, because like all families within the Commonwealth, there are disagreements.
My right hon. Friend has been vocal in his efforts, particularly on global LGBT rights. I have been able to use the CPA family as an opportunity to flag my concerns when there have been attacks on LGBT rights globally, and about women’s rights and the way in which national security legislation sometimes can be perverted or misused for the interests of individuals. Although we talk about the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association in such a positive light, is an important vehicle for challenge within our own communities. He also set out the importance of the Bill to the Commonwealth. I congratulate him on his re-election, and when he goes to the Commonwealth meeting hopefully he will be able to confirm that the Bill has passed Second Reading—that seems to be the will of the House in today’s discussion, although I would never prejudge any vote—and that it is making progress through the Houses.
The Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the International Committee of the Red Cross do vital work. The CPA furthers the aims of the Commonwealth charter to the development of free and democratic societies. It allows us to share best practice across borders, learn from one another, connect with likeminded colleagues in the Commonwealth—and sometimes not so likeminded—and together strengthen our democratic resilience in an increasingly volatile world. As the Chair of the International Development Committee said, the ICRC is often the last line of humanity reaching the most vulnerable when others cannot, and administrates lifesaving aid. Each is staffed and supported by hard-working and upright people, trying their best to make a positive impact and etch out a brighter future from our stormy present.
The Bill may seem to address minor issues in comparison to some that pass through this House. None the less, it is vital not just for us but for our Commonwealth partners around the world, many of whom I am sure will be watching today’s debate. The legal challenges in it strengthen the foundation on which the work of both the CPA and the ICRC relies. The Bill solves two problems—though my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East will attempt to make it solve three—but its real value is in the many opportunities it will create. It will be up to the Government to grip those challenges with both hands. They will have our support because the Opposition will always stand steadfast behind the Commonwealth and the Commonwealth family.
Stephen Doughty
With the leave of the House, let me first say that it is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker—I think for the first time since I have been in the Chamber. We have been opponents at some times and allies at others, but it is a pleasure to see you, and I welcome you to your place. I thank Members from both sides of the House for their insightful and valuable contributions. It is clear that the work and values of both organisations are highly regarded by all Members and that the legislation has support—I hope; I do not want to prejudge a possible vote.
As I noted earlier, this is not the first time that the House has considered forms of this legislation, and we are all pleased to see it back again. On Second Reading in the other place, my noble Friend Baroness Chapman said that she thought the Bill was the first to receive a Second Reading in this Parliament under the new Government; I think it is now the first Bill to receive a Second Reading in both Houses. Could it be the first to gain His Majesty’s signature? I wonder. I certainly hope that before the conference I can provide the answers the shadow Minister was looking for.
I thank the shadow Minister for her kind words. I welcome her and the Opposition’s warm support as well as her tribute to the past proponents of the Bill. I agreed with her comments about the Commonwealth, particularly when she spoke about the friendships and the best practice that we can share, and with her tribute to His Majesty the King. A number of Members referenced Her late Majesty Queen Elizabeth II and her decades of service; her particular engagement with the Commonwealth is recognised by all sides. The shadow Minister also paid tribute to the work of the ICRC and its staff, particularly on Nagorno-Karabakh.
The shadow Minister asked a number of questions, which I will try to answer. If I do not get them all, I will be happy to write to her. She asked specifically about the funding to the ICRC. His Majesty’s Government provide £48 million each year as core unrestricted funding and are on track to provide at least an additional £80 million this year in direct contributions to the ICRC’s work around the world. She and other right hon. and hon. Members raised the importance of the FCDO’s working with the CPA. I certainly hope that all our high commissions and embassies will provide a warm welcome to delegations and support the work; the points about the benefits in soft power and about representing this place in its broadest sense, with all our expertise and traditions, are well made.
Like other right hon. and hon. Members, the hon. Lady made much wider points about the Commonwealth. We attach great importance to our membership of the Commonwealth, which is a vibrant network of 2.5 billion people united in the pursuit of freedom, peace and prosperity. We fundamentally believe that a modern, cohesive and effective Commonwealth can play an important role in delivering progress on UK priorities across the globe—whether in the sphere of democracy, common values, defending the rights of women, girls and minority communities, dealing with climate change and the energy transition, or the particular challenges faced by small island states. We will work on all those key issues together. There is also the issue of growth and economic development; the Commonwealth’s 56 members include some of the world’s fastest growing economies and it is vital that we partner with them for their and our global benefit. Importantly, those issues, among many others, will be discussed at the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Samoa.
I also pay tribute to my good friend the Chair of the International Development Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion). She paid particular tribute to the International Committee of the Red Cross; I particularly recognise what she said about the loss of its workers in current conflicts as well as many others in the past. All of us across the House salute the resilience and bravery of those who work in such trying circumstances.
I welcome the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Monica Harding) to her place and thank her for her party’s support for the Bill. She rightly pointed to the example of other countries and why we need to follow suit. I assure her of the new Government’s commitments to international law, the multilateral system, humanitarian principles and the sustainable development goals; my noble Friend Lord Collins and others will be speaking about those matters in due course. The hon. Lady also rightly referenced the recent speech made by the Minister for Development.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Southgate and Wood Green (Bambos Charalambous) on his election and all those elected to the CPA executive. I thank him for his work and support for the Bill. The right hon. Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Dame Karen Bradley) has had to attend the important CPA event; she rightly paid tribute to Maria Miller and Ian Liddell-Grainger and highlighted the important work on modern slavery. I wish her well on her panel today. Like me, she is passionate about the personal relationships that we can develop.
The right hon. Lady and others mentioned the importance of the CPA in relation to devolved Administrations. Ironically, the first CPA conference that I attended was in the Senedd, in my own constituency of Cardiff South and Penarth, and brought together representatives of devolved Administrations along with UK and other Members of Parliament—as well as representatives of the overseas territories, for which I now have responsibility. That learning, sharing, friendship and understanding of our different ways of working as well as our common challenges was hugely important.
We have heard some fantastic maiden speeches today. First, we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Jas Athwal) a passionate account of his journey from Punjab to Ilford, which he described as a place of promise. He spoke of the community and the home that he had found and contributed to, and the passion that he clearly felt for his diverse and dynamic community, which has many similarities to my own, was very inspiring. I also noted his pledges on health and the Government’s commitments on NHS reforms, and his campaign for King George hospital. I thank him for that excellent maiden speech.
The right hon. Member for New Forest East (Sir Julian Lewis) always makes important points. I heard very clearly what he had to say, but, as I take a key interest in these matters as well, I would gently stress the point that, as he knows, the Clerks have particularly strong rules relating to the scope of Bills, and the amendment that he suggested may not be in the scope of this Bill. Obviously, it is for the Clerks to opine on the matter. I have heard the right hon. Gentleman’s remarks and will certainly take them away, but there is clearly a stark difference between the Intelligence and Security Committee situation that he described and the position of the CPA and the ICRC.
Sir Julian Lewis
May I urge the Minister, when the Government are considering the political dimension of what is being proposed, to engage in consultations with Lord West of Spithead, his own party’s representative on the previous ISC, and also with the new Lord Beamish, formerly Kevan Jones of this parish, who likewise was firmly committed to the sort of measure that I am proposing?
Stephen Doughty
The right hon. Gentleman has mentioned some well-respected people—my noble Friends —and I will ensure that colleagues across Government hear what he has said, and also his request for the ISC to meet the Prime Minister, although, as he will know, the Prime Minister’s diary is incredibly stretched.
My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee) took the opportunity to make a lengthy speech. The Whips will probably teach him not to do that too often, but he made a fantastic contribution including some thoughtful insights on the importance of the Commonwealth and its future, particularly in a world where we are contesting with autocratic and repressive states that seek a very different future for the world. I believe that the Commonwealth provides a set of values and principles on which we can all unite. He spoke of his own family history, and also noted the Commonwealth contribution in the two world wars, which we need to remember regularly, especially as we approach the season of remembrance.
The hon. Member for Windsor (Jack Rankin) made another excellent maiden speech. Like many other Members, I know his constituency well—I have sung at Royal Holloway’s Windsor building, I have visited the fields at Runnymede, and I recently attended a conference on Ukraine in Windsor Castle itself—and I know that it is home to many and varied activities from the cultural to the historic. He spoke of his passion for physics. I wanted to be a physicist myself until my English teacher told me to go into politics, and the contribution that science and mathematics can make to the House is key. The royal history of the hon. Gentleman’s constituency is, of course, well known. I welcome him to the House, and thank him for an excellent speech.
My hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Lillian Jones) paid a heartfelt tribute to the family, friends and campaigners who brought her to this place, along with her own clear commitments to public service. She also paid warm tributes to her predecessors, including Clarice Shaw and Cathy Jamieson. I got to know Cathy Jamieson well when I first came to this place 12 years ago. She ensured that I was given a tour around “Killie” football club at one point when I was in her constituency. My hon. Friend may not know this, but there is a direct connection between her constituency and mine: Loudoun Square is at the heart of Butetown. The name denotes the strong links between the coal and shipping industries of Cardiff and the west coast of Scotland. That connection is deep and abiding. My hon. Friend spoke with passion about the huge community assets in her constituency and the strength of that community, and I wish her well in this place.
Last but not least, the right hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell) made some very important remarks and some kind remarks about me, and I congratulate him on his election to the CPA’s executive committee. The significance of this change is understood by the Government, which is why we want to get the Bill through. I am glad that he highlighted some of the challenges we see around the Commonwealth, particularly those facing the LGBT+ community. He knows that I take those issues very seriously, and I have taken advantage of my time with the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association to raise such concerns in the past. These are issues that I and other Ministers take very seriously.
I will conclude by saying that I am well aware not only of the excellent work that the ICRC does, but of its importance to the Commonwealth. My own constituency has people from Cyprus, Malta, south Asia and Africa. It is vital that we continue those links at the parliamentary level and work together, and we Ministers are committed to doing so. I thank everybody for their contributions today. I look forward to seeing this Bill progress—rapidly, I hope—and I commend it to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and International Committee of the Red Cross (Status) Bill [LORDS] (Programme)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),
That the following provisions shall apply to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and International Committee of the Red Cross (Status) Bill [Lords]:
Committal
(1) The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.
Proceedings in Public Bill Committee
(2) Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Wednesday 13 November 2024.
(3) The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.
Consideration and Third Reading
(4) Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings are commenced.
(5) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.
(6) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading.
Other proceedings
(7) Any other proceedings on the Bill may be programmed.—(Christian Wakeford.)
Question agreed to.
Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and International Committee of the Red Cross (Status) Bill [LORDS] (Money)
King’s recommendation signified.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and International Committee of the Red Cross (Status) Bill [Lords], it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any amount refunded in respect of any tax or duty in accordance with arrangements made under the Act.—(Christian Wakeford.)
Question agreed to.
Business without Debate
Delegated Legislation
Postal Voting at General Elections
(2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)
What a delectable, delicious prospect we have before us: a two-and-a-half-hour Adjournment debate on postal voting. If the Whips thought that the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee) made a long speech, I am tempted to say, “You ain’t seen nothing yet!”
First, may I welcome the Minister to her place? I assure her from the start that this is not an attack Adjournment debate; it really is designed to be helpful to her and colleagues. I sought to secure this debate having reflected on the operation of postal voting during the general election, which I did through the prism of being the then Minister in charge of elections policy. Just for the record, I note that Mr Speaker has kindly invited me to join the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission, and I have accepted.
If the House will indulge me for just a moment, I want to put on record one of those things that often do not get noted when Ministers are ushered out of office by the electorate. This place, all of us who have been returned to it, all who stood in the election and represented their party interests across the United Kingdom, and all our electorates owe a debt of thanks to the elections team at the former Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities—I see one or two of them in the Officials Box. The team worked flat out to deliver the policies that came from the Elections Act 2022, and they had the local elections in May and then the general election shortly thereafter. They worked tirelessly to support the delivery of those elections, and I put on record my thanks to them.
I also thank David Gold and his team at the Royal Mail, and all the people at the Royal Mail who strove so hard to deliver the postal votes and all the other literature and documentation that supports the delivery of a general election. David and his team were more than generous with their time and, during the election campaign, as issues were coming to the fore that they were trying to manage and we were trying to raise as the Government, they made themselves available on a daily basis, if necessary, and certainly on a weekly basis to make sure that the ship of state was still afloat.
It would be remiss of me not to thank the Association of Electoral Administrators and all those in local government who keep the electoral register and deal with the paperwork and the logistics, which certainly became more complex and demanding, as the Minister will doubtless have been briefed by her officials, as a result of the changes to the rules and regulations in the Elections Act. I had the great honour of speaking at the annual conference earlier this year—I am sure that the Minister will be invited to do it; if she can, I urge her to—and they are a great bunch of women and men who work tirelessly in our town halls and county halls to make sure that elections are delivered. Of course, we should also thank the Electoral Commission, which is the guardian watchdog that keeps an eye over all of us to make sure that the rules are adhered to.
Our democracy works only when and because the defeated and their supporters—not the victors—accept the result. We saw the dangers of that in the previous American presidential election, and just how close we can get to anarchy and a complete collapse of confidence, the ramifications of which are still being felt in the States, when the people who lose say, “We was robbed. The system was against us.”
We have been hugely lucky in this country that all our election results have been beyond challenge and have been accepted by the victor and the defeated, and that the legitimacy of those who have been chosen to govern has been accepted and agreed, but we cannot rest on our laurels. We cannot presume that just because that is how it has always been, that is how it will always be, and that is the spur that prompted me to apply for this Adjournment debate.
My message to the Minister is that although 2029 seems a long way away, in governance and organisational terms it is effectively tomorrow. The Government and the House need to think about whether and how any changes are to be delivered to the way that postal voting operates, such as through amendments to the Elections Act or statutory instruments, to ensure that the electorate accept the legitimacy of the result.
The next general election will not be fought on the same franchise that we had this year. We have an ageing population, so it is a legitimate presumption that there will be a higher demand for postal votes as people get older. There is also the potential to increase the franchise by giving the vote to 16 year olds, which could increase future demand for postal votes, and I understand that proposals may be in train about franchise rights for EU citizens, which would create another demand. If all the newly enfranchised overseas voters had registered to vote who were hitherto exempt because of the 15-year cut-off point, who would by definition be seeking a postal vote or a proxy vote, the totality of additional voters coming on to the roll—I am giving this figure from memory—would have been about 3 million.
I do not know what percentage of that 3 million got on to the register and had a vote; the Electoral Commission’s report about the operation of the election will be published in November. As sure as eggs are eggs, though, as time goes by—their legitimacy to vote was accepted by my then shadow, the hon. Member for Vauxhall and Camberwell Green (Florence Eshalomi), so there will be no change in policy there—one can only presume that a greater percentage of those 3 million will apply for a vote as their knowledge and understanding of their ability to secure one grows.
Simon Hoare
I am tempted to say that this Adjournment debate would not be an Adjournment debate—it would fail the Trade Descriptions Act—unless I gave way to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon).
Jim Shannon
I commend the hon. Gentleman for bringing this debate forward. He is absolutely right to bring this issue to the Floor of the House for consideration by the Minister. I would like to make a helpful contribution. He is very knowledgeable in relation to Northern Ireland. We have had a postal vote system for some time, but there was a problem at the last election. When people were taken ill suddenly, the doctors in the hospitals could right away send a letter, and those people were accepted for a postal vote. However, those in their late 70s and 80s who were infirm and perhaps not so mobile were not able to get postal votes even though they needed them, because for some unknown reason, their GPs took a decision not to sign their forms for postal votes. To me, that is absolutely ludicrous. If you are elderly and infirm and not able to get out, you should get a postal vote. There should be no two-tier status for those with postal votes.
Simon Hoare
I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman that all those who are entrusted with the discharge and delivery of our elections—our police, our medical certifiers and others clearly play a part—should play an active and engaged part. It should not be an option to opt out; this should just be an accepted part of the job. I will mention Northern Ireland specifically in a moment or so.
I want to give the House some facts provided by the Royal Mail, which I think are of interest to put this issue into scope and scale. At the general election just gone, on 4 July, the Royal Mail delivered more postal votes and candidate mail than in any previous general election. Postal votes were up by 50% and candidate literature was up by 30% in comparison with 2019—and that was just your election literature, Madam Deputy Speaker! The Royal Mail delivered 50.8 million poll cards, 7.26 million postal votes and 184 million candidate leaflets. It did sweeps of all its 37 mail centres and 1,200 delivery offices to ensure that all the postal votes that had gone into the system were delivered to the counts, to make sure that those votes were counted. On election day itself, 70,000 postal votes were handled by the Royal Mail across the United Kingdom to be delivered. That is a huge number.
This is the challenge that I set for the Minister. I am not looking for the de facto answer today, but I would like an assurance that it is on the radar and people are thinking about it. We know full well that the Royal Mail is going through a period of change. I think we feel this particularly acutely in rural areas. It is by definition, because of email and everything else, handling fewer and fewer letters, and staff numbers reflect that. One of the joys of the 2015 general election, as far as Royal Mail was concerned, was the fact that we still had the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 and it could structure additional recruitment to deliver the demand—and that demand was far less than that which prevails at the moment—because it knew with certainty when the general election was going to be held. The snap elections of 2017 and 2019, and the perhaps earlier than expected 2024 election, caught the Royal Mail napping, because it had to put on a sudden spurt to recruit people to deliver all the pieces of paper that needed to be delivered. In the absence of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act, that issue will remain with us.
I made the point to the Royal Mail that in fact only one election was controlled by the Fixed-term Parliaments Act. Every other election had always been at the whim or the prerogative of the Prime Minister when the House was dissolved. However, in comparing previous with future general elections, we must consider the changes in volume that the Royal Mail is handling.
I mentioned rural areas. I am still awaiting the delivery of election address 2; I am sure that I had exciting words to say, but it never came through my letterbox. Last week, a wonderful bundle of 12 pieces of mail was delivered in the one-delivery-a-week service that my part of North Dorset is currently experiencing.
There will not be a Member of Parliament, urban or rural—though this applies particularly to rural areas—who has not had constituents contacting them after the general election to say that they did not receive their postal vote in time or could not get it back in time. That takes me to a point that requires possibly secondary legislation and certainly some thought: the cut-off point between the close of nominations and everything going to the printer, and everything getting bundled up in the postal vote packs at the same time as people are trying to update the register, check that polling stations are available, recruit polling clerks and so on. It is all incredibly tight. It was incredibly tight this year, but the system just about coped. I am anxious to future-proof, given the increased demand that I mentioned at the start of my remarks.
The Government could go back to the old system, thus putting the postal vote genie back in the bottle, with the tight criteria that used to prevail. I do not believe that that will happen, and I do not think it would be desirable. We could introduce digital voting for overseas voters, but that has the potential for fraud and hacking. It also opens up the Pandora’s box of digital voting for everyone in the United Kingdom.
There is no easy solution. There is the tightness of the timetables and the capacity of the Royal Mail—not its good will; the Royal Mail is honoured and delighted to have the contract that the Government give it. David Gold and his team were conscious of the pivotal role that their organisation played in delivering the general election, and always prepared to say so up front.
The Electoral Commission noted, in a briefing that I received today in advance of the debate, for which I am grateful, that several people experienced problems in voting by post, such as delays in receiving their postal ballot. Its research shows that the vast majority of postal votes were delivered promptly, and that there were no widespread or systemic issues. However, there were voters in the UK and abroad who could not vote because of the late arrival of postal votes. Problems were prevalent in Scotland, which gave us a lot of concern because the election coincided with the school holidays there and in Northern Ireland, which created additional pressure for the postal voting system. I look forward, as I am sure that the Minister does, to the Electoral Commission’s report on postal voting, which will be published next month.
Something needs to be done to give us all confidence that the result of the general election in 2029—probably—will have the same legitimacy as those held in 2024, 2019 and previously. There will be some challenges. Although our constituents are not forced to vote, they have a legitimate expectation, as part of their contract with the state, that their vote will be counted if it has been cast.
I do not have the answers for the Minister. That is her job, not mine. She knows that the system needs to be reliable, robust, easy, seamless and trusted, because all of us, irrespective of party or geography, are united in being motivated by one guiding principle: the result, whatever it may be, has to command authority through the electorate’s trust in it. If it does not—if people can cry foul, say that the system is loaded against them, or that it is too creaky and analogue for a digital age—then faith in our democratic system erodes. When faith erodes, participation is likely to decline; that is when extremes always flourish, and I know that His Majesty’s Government and the Minister will not want that. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say. For what it is worth, having been the Minister over the election period, I would be happy to do anything I can with her—through conversations, et cetera—to ensure that we get this right.
Martin Vickers (Brigg and Immingham) (Con)
My hon. Friend is making an interesting and powerful speech. He referred to the number of items delivered by Royal Mail, and said that it is going through a period of change. Do we need to look for alternatives to Royal Mail because of the major changes that are taking place?
Simon Hoare
If my hon. Friend means alternatives to feet on the pavements, then very possibly. The benefit of using the Royal Mail is that culturally it is aware of the seriousness of the task it is asked to discharge, and it has a very good heritage of doing so. I would not want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I sympathise with the Royal Mail because, in essence, it is given five weeks to recruit hundreds of people across the country to learn the rounds and deliver stuff. Those people also have to be vetted to ensure that they are not politically partial, so that my leaflets do not end up in a hedge while everybody else’s end up delivered through people’s letterboxes. Those are important issues.
There is a tendency to rush off into the commercial sector, but I would not do that. Of course, there are ways to ensure vetting, but the authority and imprimatur of Royal Mail puts it at a distinct advantage. I know that it wants to continue to undertake the task, not just because the contract it has with the Minister and the Department is commercially attractive, but because it sees itself as being part of the democratic fabric and network that sustains the elections.
I could have waited until 2027 to raise these issues, but then the Minister could have said, “The hon. Member for North Dorset makes some very valid points, but he will know that there is no time in the legislative timetable to address them. We will just have to try and muddle through.” The Minister has at least a few years to talk to the Parliamentary Business and Legislation Cabinet Committee, her Whip and the Leader of the House, and assess whether tweaks and changes need to be made to election cut-off dates and timetables. I will not labour the point any further, but the electoral process needs to be robust and the outcomes must be trusted by all our citizens, irrespective of whether they voted or how they voted.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government (Rushanara Ali)
I thank the former Minister, the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), for securing the debate and bringing the very important topic of elections to the attention of the House. I particularly welcome the expertise and experience he brings to the discussion, which is helpfully taking place at the beginning of the Parliament. As he pointed out, in the previous Government he was Minister for elections.
The effective running of our electoral processes is the foundation of our democracy, and it is right that we carefully monitor and review all aspects of delivery to identify emerging issues and areas for improvement. Like the hon. Gentleman, I express my gratitude to all those who worked tirelessly to deliver the recent general election, including returning officers, electoral registration officers and their teams across the country. This is an important debate in the context of an election that was delivered effectively, and in which voters could exercise their rights freely. The country has collective confidence in the result. Although there will always be lessons to be identified and improvements to be made, the success of the polls should not be taken for granted or go unacknowledged. I also thank the wider sector that supported the system—the printers, the suppliers, the Royal Mail, the police, the Electoral Commission and, of course, the hon. Gentleman for his tireless work. He deserves great credit for effectively marshalling Government resources to aid the delivery of this complex operation.
The Government are aware of the reports that arose in the media of postal voting delays at the recent general election and the points that the hon. Member has made. Although the vast majority of postal votes were delivered successfully, it is perhaps not surprising in an operation of this scale and complexity that a proportion of postal votes should encounter delay. Those delays happened despite the work done by the Minister and others ahead of the general election. That was the case in previous elections, too. Officials worked closely with the Royal Mail and returning officers to support the resolution of the issues as quickly and effectively as possible.
None the less, any instance of an elector being unable to vote due to delays or errors in the system is deeply regrettable, and we need to take steps to address the root causes. Postal voting, as the hon. Member pointed out, has become increasingly popular; there is a general trend towards more of the electorate choosing this voting option. At the 2019 general election, more than 8 million postal votes were issued, and reports suggest that the figure for 2024 was significantly higher. That puts printing and delivery systems under strain, especially when national polls and elections are called at short notice. The issues arising in 2024 also have to be seen against the backdrop of boundary changes.
We recognise that no system will be perfect at all times, but it is clear from the volume of incidents, and from feedback from the election sector and electors themselves, that there are major strains on the system, and improvements will need to be made. We will carefully assess the postal voting process in our wider review of electoral conduct and registration processes, which the Government have already begun. We will work closely with stakeholders across the sector to gather their feedback, analysis and ideas. I am very grateful to the former Minister for his offer of assistance. This is an incredibly important matter, and I am very keen to make sure that we draw on his expertise and work. The Electoral Commission will publish its final report on the general election later this year, and we will carefully consider its findings and recommendations.
Simon Hoare
I am very grateful to the hon. Lady, not just for what she is saying about the issues, but for her very kind words. She has made a former Minister blush. In her conversations with the sector—she knows that those are vital conversations—will she overlay the projected figure for electors in the next election, or will she use the 2024 figures? Clearly, if the changes that the Government are suggesting are delivered, the franchise will be larger. That is an important point on which I would like clarity. I guess I probably know the answer.
Rushanara Ali
We will look at these issues in the round. The hon. Member has made important points about the growth in the sector, and I shall come on to that. As I have said, we will look at the findings of the Electoral Commission report when they arrive. Once we have completed our review, we will bring forward firm proposals for improvements to our electoral system, and I look forward to discussing them with Members in due course.
The hon. Gentleman expressed other concerns. We recognise the important work that Royal Mail has carried out. We will need to look at that in the context of Royal Mail’s parent company and a potential takeover, and consider any wider implications, to make sure that the system is robust and that there is appropriate support, not only so that Royal Mail can learn for future elections, and improve on what was done in recent elections, but so that resources are in place and we continue to maintain confidence in the system. The hon. Gentleman made an important point about rural areas as well. Those factors need to be considered, along with other points he made.
The hon. Gentleman made important points about an ageing population and demographic changes, as well as younger voters and the increasing popularity of some ways of voting. Work needs to take into account changes in behaviour and voting patterns. As I said, I look forward to working with him on those important issues.
The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) spoke about Northern Ireland and making checks. The Northern Ireland Office has heard of GPs not signing off postal votes, but that has never been backed by specific evidence. We will, however, take that issue into account and look into it, along with any other barriers facing those who need or wish to vote with a postal ballot.
Let me say, in the spirit of consensus in which the hon. Member for North Dorset introduced the debate and made his speech, that I look forward to working closely with him. I thank him for securing this important debate, and other Members for their interventions, and for contributing their insights and expertise. The Government consider the effective running of elections to be of paramount importance. It is fundamental to trust and confidence in our democracy. As we announced earlier this month, we are reviewing carefully electoral conduct and registration processes. Once the review is complete, we will bring forward firm proposals for changes where they are necessary. I very much look forward to sharing those proposals with Members, and to working with the hon. Member for North Dorset.
Question put and agreed to.