Commons Chamber

Monday 26th January 2026

(began 1 week, 6 days ago)

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None Portrait Q12. What recent progress his Department has made on the Timms Review of Personal Independence Payment. (907459)
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group of 12, which will come together for the first time this week. Toby Perkins. I thank my
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Stephen Doughty Portrait Stephen Doughty MP, Minister of State (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour )
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the island of Diego Garcia. The base, as I've said in this House many times, is essential to the security of the UK and our key security of the UK and our key allies, including the United States. It is essential to keeping British people safe, and it's also one of our most significant contributions our most significant contributions to the Transatlantic Defence and Security Partnership, because it enables rapid deployment of operations and forces across the operations and forces across the Middle East, East Africa and South Asia, helping combat some of the most challenging threats, including from terrorism and hostile states.

from terrorism and hostile states. And its unique strategic location, creates real military advantage across the Indo-Pacific, and the facility has helped also to collect data used to support counter-terrorism operations, including against high value Islamic State targets. In recent years, we've been clear on many times in this House, Mr. Speaker, the UK will never compromise on our national security and as we have been repeatedly making clear, the agreement we have struck is vital for protecting our national security, guaranteeing the long term future of a vital base for both the UK and the US, which had been under threat as the opposition fully understood and were briefed on.

The deal secures the operations of the joint UK US base on Diego Garcia. For generations, it was publicly welcomed by the United States, Australia and all other Five Eyes partners, as well as key international partners including India, Japan and South Korea. And just last week, Mr. Speaker, the House spent two hours debating the Lords amendments to the bill. The opposition will know, of course, that programming of business in the other place is a matter for them and not for us. However, Mr.

speaker, the Lords consideration of Commons amendments has been delayed because the opposition tabled a wrecking amendment hours before the Other place rose. And a day. Well, I mean, I think this just shows the measure of the. Mr. Speaker, and a day before a scheduled debate, this is an irresponsible and reckless behaviour from the official opposition in the second House, using programming tactics to frustrate the implementation of a treaty on a critical national security matter. And I have to say, Mr.

Speaker, it stands in stark contrast to the very reasoned, constructive criticisms and questions and suggestions that have been made by members from other parties and indeed by crossbenchers, which we've engaged with in good faith and at every stage, and will continue to do so. This is on the official opposition, Mr. Speaker, because this amendment is not only unnecessary, but it is toying with our national security. And it is only right, Mr. Speaker, that we take steps to consider the next steps on programming, because we remain confident this treaty is the best way forward.

The Lords will consider the Commons amendments in due course. This will be announced in the usual way. The government is committed to the deal, which protects the joint UK US base on Diego Garcia. Some have sought to sabotage the process through procedural motions and parliamentary stunts. We are instead focussed on delivering this bill to protect our national security.
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Priti Patel Portrait Rt Hon Priti Patel MP (Witham, Conservative)
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Priti Patel Mr Speaker. Well, Labour's Chagos surrender humiliation continues today. We humiliation continues today. We were hoping they were hoping to force through in the House of Lords their surrender Bill, giving away territory, handing over £35 billion territory, handing over £35 billion to a foreign government allied to China and betraying Chagossians. But after the Conservatives pointed out on how their surrender would violate our existing international obligations and challenge the government, they pulled the bill from the House of Lords Order Paper today rather than being defeated.

And I have a copy here for the Minister to have a read. And in their rush to appease the wishes of their left wing lawyer friends, Labour overlooked this very 1966 treaty between the UK and the US, which states that the British Indian Ocean Territory shall remain under the United Kingdom sovereignty. So can the Minister tell us, does he accept that the Bill and the treaty violates this very 1966 treaty with the US and following the US president saying that the UK is giving away the Chagos Islands for no reason whatsoever, there is no doubt that China and Russia have noticed this act of total weakness, and adding the UK has given away extremely important land is an act of great stupidity.

Can he tell us what discussions have taken place with the US administration in the last few days, and if they have communicated that they are now reviewing the deal? Britain's weak Prime Minister seemed to suggest in the House last week that he was being bullied by the president. Now that's quite a personal statement, Mr. Speaker. So has the Prime Minister had a direct discussion with the president in the last week about Chagos? And can the Minister confirm that any changes to our 1966 treaty with the US will undergo parliamentary scrutiny under the 21 day Crag process, with time given for debates and votes? Does the Minister accept that it would be logical for this House to consider amendments to the 1966 treaty with the US before proceeding with this bill? And can the Minister confirm that Jonathan Powell, friend of China, upon appointment as a British Indian Overseas Territory envoy and before becoming national security Adviser, accelerated negotiations with Mauritius to surrender the Chagos Islands.

Mr. speaker, it's time Labour saw sense and scrapped this treaty and stood up for Britain.
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Stephen Doughty Portrait Stephen Doughty MP, Minister of State (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour )
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Minister. something more. But the reality is that the tone, the braying, the noise, Mr. speaker, I think reflects absolutely that this is a simple political stunt from the opposition and I think deeply, deeply regretful. Mr. speaker, when we're talking about such important matters of national security. Now, she asked specifically about the US, UK exchange of notes. I mean, I genuinely am surprised about this, Mr. Speaker, because we've been clear throughout that before the UK can ratify the treaty, we will need to do the following pass primary and secondary legislation, update the UQs agreement, the exchange of notes and put in place arrangements on the environment, maritime security and migration.

Now, perhaps the opposition have only just clocked on to this and the need to update the UK US agreement. But we actually told the noble Lord Callanan. In fact, my hon. Friend in the other place answered his question on the 22nd of December where she said talks are ongoing to update the UK, US exchange of letters on the operation of the Diego Garcia base. We've been clear about this throughout, so to try and present this as some sort of gotcha that we haven't looked at the law, I mean, it is absolute nonsense, Mr.

Speaker, and it is, quite frankly, deeply, deeply irresponsible. We have made excellent progress towards finalising an updated UK, US agreement. And of course, Mr. Speaker, for the record, because they won't have looked at any of the history of this, the UK US agreement has been updated in 1972, 1976, twice 1987 and 1999. So this is a regular process. We've had to update it for a range of reasons. In the past, we were always clear about the need to put in place the necessary domestic and international legal processes in place to deal with this.

So the idea that this is something new, some sort of gotcha or otherwise, it's just simply for the birds, Mr. Speaker. Now, she asked also about the contact with the United States. We remain engaged with the United States on a daily basis on matters relating to our national security, and we will continue to engage with them on this important matter and, of course, engage around the the importance of the deal to secure US and UK interests and of course, any concerns as we have done throughout this process.

There's nothing new in that and it's absolutely right that we do. So her claims about China were simply rubbish, Mr. Speaker, and I'm really surprised that they continue to play these shocking party political games.
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Stephen Doughty Portrait Stephen Doughty MP, Minister of State (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour )
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Mr. speaker? Mr. speaker, my my >> Mr. speaker? Mr. speaker, my my hon. Friend perhaps hasn't been in some of the previous debates on this, but I've set out on a number this, but I've set out on a number of occasions why and again, a lot, a lot of noise from the other side, Mr. Speaker. But of course, they knew the problem here. They knew the risk to the operations of the base. That's why they engaged in 11 rounds of negotiations over this. Mr.

speaker, so I say again, the operations of this base were under threat. We're not willing to play roulette with our national security, and therefore we have put in place the necessary steps to protect. And this is the crucial thing, the operations that base and the full ability to do so in the way that they are today from the threats that existed to it, they put our national security, he says. What threats? I've set those out on many, many occasions in this House. And what's more, we have secured better protections in this deal than they attempted to negotiate, including the buffer zone and the protections in relation to foreign forces on the outer islands.

That has been the priority for us securing our national security and securing the operation of this base for us and

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for our allies. Calum Miller the Liberal Democrat spokesperson. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Liberal

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Liberal Democrats have argued consistently that Chagossians rights to self-determination should be honoured. So even at this 11th hour, honoured. So even at this 11th hour, I want to ask the government to reconsider its obstinate refusal to give Chagossians a voice over the give Chagossians a voice over the homeland from which they were shamefully and violently removed. Will the Minister support the Liberal Democrat amendment and the
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Stephen Doughty Portrait Stephen Doughty MP, Minister of State (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour )
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Minister. place have given a serious and considered reflections on this bill at number of times. We've discussed them privately, and indeed have responded to them in the other responded to them in the other place. And certainly we listen very closely to what he said on a number of issues, including continuing to update the houses on on the cost issues and other matters, although, again, I'm sure he agrees with me that some of the wild figures we've heard being quoted as simply not accurate or based in any kind of fact.

He raises the issue about the Chagossians. He knows that I and others have engaged with Chagossian communities on a number of occasions. There, of course, have been also a wide range of views expressed from Chagossian communities, and he knows that a referendum would not have resolved this long standing issue between the UK and Mauritius, which required state to state negotiations, and indeed the courts here, noting the conclusion of the ICJ on the 2019 advisory opinion, have proceeded on the basis that the relevant rights self-determination in the context of bias was that of Mauritius rather than of Chagossians.

And that remains the the fact. But I do appreciate what he says about Chagossian communities. He knows my commitment to them, and to listening to the range of views and trying to do the right thing, including acknowledging the deep wrongs of the past. So, Mr. Speaker, we will continue to engage with him and his colleagues, and I'm very happy to meet with him to discuss amendments in the other place.
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Stephen Doughty Portrait Stephen Doughty MP, Minister of State (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour )
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Mr. Speaker. I thank my hon. Friend for his question. As always, Friend for his question. As always, I have deep respect for the issues he raises in this place, particularly when it comes to human rights and liberties of individuals. rights and liberties of individuals. We've engaged extensively with the Chagossian communities. We've heard a range of views. There are a number of groups that are very number of groups that are very strongly in favour of this deal. There are some that are opposed. I respect that there will always be disagreements on this issue, but we have worked very, very closely to ensure that their needs are at the heart of this deal and whether that's through the trust fund, whether it's through the clarificatory statements that we've been able to secure from the Mauritian government, the way that the trust fund is going to operate supports Chagossian communities here.

And he can absolutely be assured that I remain very seized of these issues, as do other Ministers, and they'll continue to form a part of our engagement as this goes forward.

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That completes the question that the front benches change over. Before we start, I think it would Before we start, I think it would be remiss of me not to say to the Home Secretary that we've got a statement, but I've watched it all statement, but I've watched it all unfold yesterday. I've watched over the last few days, whether it's the FBI merging of police forces, it really needs to be brought here before it's taken to the media.

So before it's taken to the media. So can I once again say to Home Secretary, I know he was very diligent in the job. They're not my diligent in the job. They're not my rules that the Prime Minister's rules, and I don't need the Prime Minister ignoring his own rules. Minister ignoring his own rules. Home Secretary statement.
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None Portrait Speaker's statement Mr Speaker
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Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
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Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
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Police reform. Speaking at this very Dispatch Box, Sir Robert Peel declared, and I quote, that the time has come when quote, that the time has come when we may fairly pronounce that the country has outgrown her police institutions. Those words could institutions. Those words could just as well have been spoken. Today. Policing is not broken as some might have us believe. Last year, the police made over three quarters of a million arrests, 5% more than the year before. Some of the most serious crimes are now falling, with knife crime down and murder in the capital at its lowest recorded level.

However, across the country things feel very different. Communities are facing an epidemic of everyday crime that all too often seems to go unpunished and criminals know it. Shop theft has risen by 72% since 2010. Phone theft is up 58% at the same time. In a rapidly changing world, the nature of crime is changing. Criminals are operating online and across borders with greater sophistication than ever before, be they drug smugglers, people traffickers or child sexual abusers. The world has changed dramatically since policing was last fundamentally reformed over 60 years ago.

Policing remains the last great unreformed public service today as this government publishes a new policing white paper, I set out reforms that are long overdue. They define a new model for policing in this country, with local policing that protects our communities, and national policing that protects us all. Since taking office, we have already restored a focus on neighbourhood policing that the last conservative government eroded. They pulled bobbies off the beat, with over half of the public now reporting they never see police on patrol in their local area.

It was a foolish error because neighbourhood policing works across the world. The evidence shows that visible patrols in high crime areas work. The last Labour government put more officers on the streets, and confidence in policing hit record levels. The Tories cut them and confidence fell. This government is writing that wrong. With a target of 13,000 more neighbourhood officers by the end of the Parliament, and we have already put 2400 back onto the beat. We have also introduced the Neighbourhood Guarantee, so every community has a named contact officer and I intend to end the Distortive Officer Maintenance grant.

This was introduced by the last conservative government, who had to replace the 20,000 police officers lost on their watch. The results were perverse uniformed officers hired but stuck behind desks with 12,000 men and women in uniform now working in support roles, including, absurdly, some 250 warrant officers working in HR. I intend to end this by introducing a neighbourhood policing ring fence, which will ensure that forces are putting uniformed officers where the public want and need them out in the community, fighting crime on our streets.

However, we must do more. Today. We have. We have policing happening in the wrong places. We have local forces responsible for national policing, distracting them from policing their communities. And at the same time, we have forces of various shapes and sizes with quality varying widely, force by force. This government's reforms will ensure we have the right policing happening in the right place. That starts with the creation of a new National Police Service. At first, this force will set standards and lift administrative tasks off local forces, but in time it will draw in all national crime fighting responsibilities, including counter-terrorism, policing, serious organised crime and fraud.

This will ensure local forces are no longer distracted by national responsibilities, while at the same time creating an elite national force expert at fighting the ever more sophisticated criminals who are operating nationwide, across our borders and online. Alongside this new national force, we will replace the patchwork of 43 local forces that has remained almost unchanged since the 1964 Police Act. That model has been straining for decades. Today, it is simply not fit for purpose. Our 43 forces are of varying sizes.

Some of them have just 1000 officers, others over 8000, and the Metropolitan Police is 30 times larger than our smallest forces. As a result, some forces are not equipped to handle complex investigations or respond to major incidents. Meanwhile, the duplication across force headquarters means money is wasted drawing resources away from frontline policing. So we will introduce a smaller number of regional forces responsible for specialist investigations like murder, serious sexual offences and public order. And within these forces we will introduce smaller local policing areas.

These will be focussed exclusively on local policing, tackling the burglaries, shoplifting and anti-social behaviour that too often go unpunished. Today it is vital we set these new forces up in the right way. So I will soon launch a review to determine the precise nature of these new forces and the precise number. Its work will be completed this summer. Taken together, these reforms will put the right policing in the right place. An elite national force will tackle nationwide crime.

Regional forces will conduct specialist investigations, and local policing will tackle the epidemic of everyday crime. I was structures are outdated and so is our adoption of the tools and technology that could make our policing both more effective and efficient. Criminals are operating in increasingly sophisticated ways, but in policing, in all honesty, our response is mixed. While some forces surge ahead with the results to show for it, others are fighting crime. In a digital age with analogue methods, we will ensure that every force is adopting the latest technology led out of the new National Police Service, and this will include the largest ever rollout of live facial recognition technologies across England and Wales.

We know this approach works in London. In just two years, the Metropolitan Police have made 1700 arrests, taking robbers, domestic abusers and rapists off our streets. When the future arrives, there are always doubters. 100 years ago, fingerprinting was decried as curtailing our civil liberties, but today we could not imagine policing without it. I have no doubt the same will prove true of facial recognition technology in the years to come. At the same time, we will launch police AI investing a record £115 million in AI and automation to make policing more effective and efficient, stripping admin away to ensure officer time can be devoted to the human factor that only a police officer can provide, common standards apply both to the technology we use and the quality and performance of our officers.

We must, and we will set and maintain the highest standards. We have already introduced new vetting requirements, enabling forces to dismiss those who fail vetting checks, alongside a range of measures to lift policing standards. We will introduce a licence to practice for police officers, recognising the professionalism, dedication and duty that comes with the uniform. We must be willing to set clear standards and the performance that we expect within forces and hold policing leaders to account for their delivery.

Under the last conservative government, there was a retreat from the historic role held by Home Secretaries and the Home Office since the days of peel. That was an error, and this government will reverse it, as the old Peelian maxim has it, the police are the public and the public are the police, and I consider it essential that the people through Parliament can determine what they expect from their forces. So this government will restore targets for police forces and set minimum standards that forces must abide by.

Forces performance will be transparent and public, and where performance falls, we will take action. We will create new turnaround teams to go into a force where performance has fallen. And in the most extreme examples of a failure of leadership, I will restore the Home Secretary's power to fire a Chief Constable. This was a vital power relinquished by the last conservative government, who handed that power to police and crime commissioners, a position that I consider a failed experiment. Despite the best efforts of many excellent PCCs across the country.

And we will now draw that experiment to an end. Local accountability and governance will remain essential, and we will continue to be and will it will be, continue to be provided by Mayoralties or local Crime and policing boards. Mr Speaker. Taken together, these are, without question major reforms, a transformation in the structures of our forces, the standards within them and the means by which they are held to account by the public. These are the most significant changes to how policing works in this country.

In around 200 years. The world has changed immeasurably since then, but policing has not. We have excellent and brave police officers across the country. We have effective and inspiring leaders across many of our forces, but they are operating within a structure that is outdated, making the job of policing our streets and protecting our country harder than it should be. I began by quoting Peel's declaration that the country has outgrown her police institutions. He went on to argue that the safest course will be found to be the introduction of a new mode of protection.

Now, as then, it is time we had the bravery to pursue a new mode of protection and a new model of policing, with the right policing in the right place. That means local forces protecting their communities and national policing that protects us all, and that Mr Speaker is what this government will deliver. And I commend this statement to the House.
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Chris Philp Portrait Rt Hon Chris Philp MP (Croydon South, Conservative)
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Can I first of all, you did run >> Can I first of all, you did run slightly over by over a minute. So a little bit of leeway to the front benches. Shadow Home Secretary

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benches. Shadow Home Secretary Chris Philp. Well, I thank. The Home Secretary for advance sight of her statement, especially sight of her statement, especially after her busy weekend chairing the NEC, which excluded Andy Burnham from returning to Parliament. Anyway, the Home Secretary's statement anyway seems to be some concern coming from benches behind her on that. Anyway, the Home Secretary's statement is striking for what it did not say because there was no mention, not one word of her plans for total police officer numbers.

And the reason for that is simple total police officer numbers are falling under this Labour government, as figures due for release later this week will confirm. Now, the last recruitment intake before the election was in March 2024, and there were 149,769 officers in post. That is the highest number in this country's history. By the same time the following year, under Labour, officer numbers had fallen by over a thousand, and in the current financial year, numbers are falling even further, with the met alone saying they will lose a staggering 1500 officers this financial year.

So, officer numbers, the government is engaged in a con trick. They are transferring officers away from crime investigation, away from 999 response and away from other teams into neighbourhood teams. So they can say neighbourhood numbers are going modestly up, but total police officer numbers are falling. So there will be fewer 909 response officers, fewer investigation officers, response times will be slower and investigations will not be as effective. The Home Secretary can set targets and make announcements, but the fact is she is presiding over falling total police numbers and the public will be less safe as a result.

Now, the Home Secretary has said she will change the structure of policing briefings over the weekend. Say this reorganisation will be complete in and have to double check this 2034, nearly a decade away. But we have a crime crisis today. Shoplifting and phone theft are both surging upwards under this government, and shoplifting is now at the highest level ever. Knife crime in London, up by 80% under Mayor Sadiq Khan. And women are being let down too, with sex crimes up by 9%, rape up by 6%, stalking up by 5% and harassment up by 6%.

Under this Labour government. This requires action today, not in 2034. Now, her plan includes mandating the merger of police forces, and briefings over the weekend suggest a reduction from 43 down to 10 or 12. So a single police force might cover an area from Dover to Milton Keynes or from Penzance to Swindon. Such huge forces will be remote from the communities they serve. Resources will be drawn away from villages and towns towards large cities, and the biggest force in the country is the met.

And yet they have the worst crime clear up rate of any force in the country. They fail to solve 95% of reported crimes going to show that large scale does not automatically deliver better results, and therefore we will oppose the mandated merger of county forces into remote regional mega forces. And police forces are warning that Labour's early prisoner release scheme means more crime and more demands on policing. Most criminals will now be released after serving just one third of their prison sentence, and even rapists will only serve half.

To make things even worse, Labour plans to abolish prison sentences of under a year, so even the most prolific shoplifters will never face jail. This is a recipe for disaster cooked up by the Home Secretary in her previous role. Now there are some things we can agree on because the Home Secretary has copied some things from us. I am glad that she is. I am glad that she is continuing the rollout of AI and live facial recognition that started under the last government, and we fully support that.

It is right the Home Secretary will have greater powers to intervene. We announce that policy at our conference last year and of course we support it. And she now says she will abolish Non-crime hate incidents. Now we need to see the details. But perhaps the Home Secretary could explain why Labour voted against that measure when we tabled it as an amendment just last year. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, in conclusion, the simple fact is this total police officer numbers are falling under this Home Secretary's watch.

999 response times and crime investigations will suffer. Shoplifting, phone snatching and sex offences are all rising under this government and regional mega forces will make things worse, not better. Her grand plans will not even be fully implemented until 2034, yet action is needed today. These announcements will not make our streets safer this year or next year, and the public will rapidly

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see that. Home Secretary me. Madam Deputy Speaker, I will take no lectures Speaker, I will take no lectures from the Conservative Party on policing. They had 14 years in government and delivered no meaningful change beyond decimating neighbourhood policing. Introducing neighbourhood policing. Introducing the failed experiment of police and crime commissioners and sweeping away meaningful targets to hold our
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Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
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away meaningful targets to hold our police forces to account. He complains about Non-crime hate incidents. Pray tell, who was in government when they were brought in. He he wants to bring, he wants. He talks about Home Secretary powers, which was the government that got rid of Home Secretary powers. It was the Conservatives, it was the Conservative Party, Madam Deputy Speaker, and not once in all the time that they have been in opposition since the last general election, have they had the gumption to come to this despatch box and apologise for their appalling track record on policing? It was a conservative party whose policies saw the slashing of police numbers by 20,000, a measure that they very hastily then tried to replace by bringing back another 20,000, but in a distorted way, which meant that 12,000 of those officers warranted.

Police officers are doing desk jobs. If the if the shadow Home Secretary, I do ask him, read the detail of the white paper and really reconsider whether he wants to stand against everything in that white paper, because he cannot possibly believe that it is a good idea for warranted police officers to be doing desk jobs. He cannot possibly think it's fine for 250 of those warranted police officers to be in HR, and 200 of them to be in admin support. I cannot believe that even he, with all of his lack of attention to detail, thinks that that is a good idea.

And I do urge him and those that sit behind him to perhaps reconsider whether they are going to stand against the policies unveiled in this White paper. One thing, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I really must urge, he looks at again carefully, is on regional police forces. He knows full well, because I know he'll have looked at the white Paper that those regional forces will have within them local police areas who can then concentrate on policing their local communities right down to the neighbourhood level.

The only reason I am bringing in this new model of policing is to protect neighbourhood policing, something that was decimated on the Conservative Party's watch. If he wants to stand against local police areas focusing on local communities, regional forces dedicated to specialist investigation to make sure that rape cases, that murder cases have exactly the same high standard of service, no matter which part of the country you happen to be in, then you no more fool him. Madam Deputy Speaker, because these measures will result in a better policing model for everyone across our country.

And he raises the example of the met. And let me tell him, one of the things that Louise Casey found in her 2023 report was that the met, having the national responsibility for counter-terror policing, where they do counter-terror for everyone across the UK, distracts from the policing of London. These reforms will mean that counter-terror, policing and all other national requirements for policing will sit with the National Police Service so that the met and every other force in this country can focus on policing their local areas.

I cannot believe he wants to stand against reforms that deliver better local policing. But Madam Deputy Speaker, that appears to be where the Conservatives are at.
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Max Wilkinson Portrait Max Wilkinson MP (Cheltenham, Liberal Democrat)
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Max Wilkinson thank you, Madam. >> Deputy Speaker. Well, after a busy weekend policing Labour leadership brows, the Home Secretary is in the House today to announce reforms to policing. I think we all agree. We hope that she's more successful with the latter than she was with the former because Mr. Miss, Madam Deputy Speaker, this government came to power with a pledge to increase police numbers. But instead of the 13,000 more neighbourhood police, the latest stats tell us that we have 4000 fewer frontline police numbers are down and so is public trust.

Police are stretched and too many crimes are going unchecked. After years of conservative chaos, people are crying out for a visible police presence in their communities. That is why we welcome the Home Secretary's commitment today to focus on restoring proper community policing. We hope that is more than simple words as well as getting more police on our streets. She must also address the horrifying decline in police counters and stations which began under the Conservatives but sadly continues under Labour in London today.

So will the Home Secretary commit to ensuring a police counter in every community that needs one policing? Madam Deputy Speaker, must be fit for the modern era. It must be able to tackle organised crime that too often presents itself in our communities through mobile phone theft, through drug dealing, car crime and bike theft. So can the Home Secretary reassure us that the new national force will be properly resourced and integrated with local forces? So counterterrorism and intelligence work are not undermined and as local forces are abolished and merged, we must not see vital links lost to local communities.

For example, Gloucestershire Police is one of the smallest forces with urban and rural policing teams if its leadership is placed under the control of a Bristol based force, how will people in Cheltenham, Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds be reassured of that local focus? We also ask whether policing, whether placing the power to hire and fire chief constables in the hands of the Home Secretary is the right approach. Does this not further politicise policing, particularly with the prospect of the hon. Member for Fareham and Waterlooville as a future Home Secretary in a Farage led coalition of chaos between the Tories and Reform, rural communities have long been neglected.

Madam Deputy Speaker, So will the Home Secretary commit to placing dedicated rural crime teams in every force? And finally, the Home Secretary mentioned facial recognition. Will she ensure that there are proper safeguards put in place to ensure the technology is not biased and those in ethnic minorities can be reassured that they're not going to be wrongfully criminalised?
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Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
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Thank you, Madam Speaker. I >> Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thank the Liberal Democrat spokesperson for his response and spokesperson for his response and for his, I believe, support for at least some of the reforms, particularly those based around particularly those based around neighbourhood policing. He's absolutely right. Neighbourhood policing is absolutely critical and will be the bedrock of the new policing model unveiled in the white Paper. We've already made progress on increasing the number of neighbourhood police officers, which is 2400 already.

It will be 3000 by the end of March, with at least 17 1750 over the next financial year financial year. So we will continue to make progress on neighbourhood police officers. He also raises the point around police numbers and what I would say to him, and what is clear from both the white paper and my statement today, what matters is what those officers are doing. I hope he and his colleagues on that part of the House will agree that nobody wants to see warranted.

Police officers sat behind desks working HR and admin support. We want police officers out in our communities, policing our communities, going after criminals and providing the reassurance that only visible policing can provide. He will know that decisions on police counters and other measures are for individual forces, but I hope he will recognise that we have delivered on our commitment to have a named contact officer in every neighbourhood, which I believe goes some way to reassuring local communities on the National Police Service.

He asks a good he makes a very good point on counter-terror policing and the National Crime Agency. Let me assure him and the whole House, that those two organisations will only move into the National Police Service when it is fully ready, and we will not compromise on the operational capabilities of either of those two organisations. And I will work very closely with the leadership of both to make sure that the switch into the National Police Service only happens in a way that does not compromise the operational effectiveness of either counter-terror, policing or the National Crime Agency.

These reforms are fully funded to the end of the parliament. I can assure him on that. He also makes his point on regional forces. And again, I would urge him to look and absorb the detail of the white paper, and I look forward to discussing these issues with him in more detail. Within the regional force structures, there will be local policing areas right down to the neighbourhood level, which will ensure that whether you live in a rural area or in an urban area like me, you get the local policing that you need and that you deserve.

And that is the absolute foundation of all of these reforms, so that regional forces can concentrate on the things that can be done at scale, like specialist investigations and public order policing. But local police areas can police right down to the neighbourhood level and deal with those every day crimes, exactly as he says, that are blighting communities all over the country, and that will apply just as equally and as forcefully for rural communities as it will for those in towns and cities across the country.

And let me also reassure him on live facial recognition. I believe this is incredibly important technology, but we will make sure that its roll out is in line with the sort of regulations that we would expect to make sure it doesn't have a distortive effect. We are consulting on that right now, and in the future, the National Police Service will ensure that the adoption of technology across policing takes place quickly and in line with the standards that we would all expect.
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Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
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Well, let me thank the hon. Member for his contribution and also for his service and that of others who have served in our others who have served in our police service. Let me reassure him. The plan for regional forces will The plan for regional forces will include, and this will be very clear when I introduce legislation later in the year, an absolute later in the year, an absolute focus on local police areas, so that local policing for local communities is very much tailored to many of the needs that he has pointed out.

But at regional level, you have the economies of scale and the capacity to deal with the specialist investigations that we know are necessary and to make sure that the quality of those when the detail is out, he is able to support the proposals, given that they will focus very carefully on local policing areas, specifically to deal with some of those issues, that he has raised, the exact number of regional forces and the sort of geography that they will span will be a matter for the reviewer, and I hope to announce who that will be very soon with the review to report in the summer, so that we can crack on with rolling out these reforms.

And let me say to him, I have been delighted, a little surprised by the sheer number of policing leaders who have come out in support of these proposals, including those who represent organisations that will see change as a result of these reforms. I think the sheer range of people who have supported the white paper shows that these reforms are the right reforms for policing in

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our country. Jo White thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker, can I very much Deputy Speaker, can I very much welcome these proposals? Currently, the NCA is hugely under-resourced and hopefully bringing these and hopefully bringing these elements together will give it the funding required to do its job properly, the amount of duplication properly, the amount of duplication of effort that occurs and lack of information sharing means huge inefficiencies. They are struggling with the pace of changing
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Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
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I thank my hon. Friend. She's right. The National Police Service will draw in the national responsibilities of both counter-terror policing and the National Crime Agency. I think one of the main benefits of the reform of the main benefits of the reform will be that at the moment, whilst these two organisations do collaborate together very effectively and I do pay tribute to their current leadership and the way that they operate alongside one another, but they do duplicate and build similar capabilities and instead of having those capabilities built alongside and within two organisations, it does obviously make sense to bring them into one organisation and to prevent that duplication of capabilities and functions, but also for the sorts of people that they are going after, whether that's serious organised criminals or terrorists.

We know that actually we are one of the few major countries in the world that doesn't combine both counter-terror policing and serious organised crime, because actually international criminals often are cross boundaries and indulge in all sorts of different types of work, including covering the territory of both terror financing and serious organised crime as well. So I think that the reforms will lead to a very effective service and build on the excellent work that is already done by officers in counter-terror, policing and the NCA as well.
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Wendy Chamberlain Portrait Wendy Chamberlain MP (North East Fife, Liberal Democrat)
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Wendy Chamberlain Madam Deputy Speaker, as a former police officer, I have watched the rollout of I have watched the rollout of Police Scotland with some sadness because despite best efforts, it has not delivered what the Home has not delivered what the Home Secretary hopes to achieve with her amalgamations in Scotland, communities feel that neighbourhood policing is further away from them policing is further away from them and that they do not have the visibility and local accountability that they hope for. But the other point I wanted to ask is, as well as hoping that she is taking some lessons from Scotland, is in relation to the point she has been making about the number of police officers who are working in desk jobs.

Surely she will recognise a number of those individuals are working in those areas because they are light or restricted duties, and we have always got to have roles available for those people to do that. But that is also because we have focussed too much on police officer numbers and not actually on the back office functions and the expertise of police staff. Will this White Paper be addressing the

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overall resourcing model for policing? Home Secretary. Well, thank. The hon. Lady for her contribution. Let me say on Police Scotland, I think one of the real issues with the Police Scotland reforms was that they completed reforms was that they completed them within one year, and I made a deliberate decision to phase out these years over a number of phase out these proposals and these measures over a number of years. So towards the end of this Parliament and into the next.

I make no
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Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
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and into the next. I make no apology for that timeline, for that proposed timeline, because I believe that we must go carefully. These are big changes, and it is important that they are rolled out effectively and in a way that maintains the confidence of the public, as well as all of those who work within our police service. So I think that we have already learnt the lessons of what has happened in Scotland. And of course, the other big difference between the measures that I've introduced today and what happened with Police Scotland, is that we haven't focussed from the outset on neighbourhood policing.

They're the absolute bedrock of all of these proposals that I have made, and that is not quite the same as what happened over in Scotland, although one of the things I would say about Police Scotland is it is certainly the case that there are specialist capabilities and specialist investigations have improved. And what I would say to her on look, the most important thing is that we have police officers who are warranted, police officers who are policing our streets. Of course, there is often a need for some not to be out.

There is a need for support staff as well, and we have to have the right balance between those who are out in front line policing and those who are doing back office roles within our police service, and we will have a workforce strategy as part of this white paper. But that is why I think that we have to always have in mind that we're talking about a police service that delivers for the public. And so what we really care about is outcomes, what those officers are doing, how they're policing our streets and providing that much needed reassurance to all of our communities.



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Alex Sobel thank you, Madam Speaker. I'm really pleased the Speaker. I'm really pleased the Home Secretary is retaining the role of Democrat elected Metro mayors in the oversight of police force, and I see big questions force, and I see big questions around police AI. We know that AI training models have bias in training models have bias in particularly around race. How are we going to ensure that these that
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John Healey Portrait Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)
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Now.

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Yes. Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg to move the bill. Be now.

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I beg to move the bill. Be now. Read a second time. It's a rare privilege to open this debate today. privilege to open this debate today. Only the second ever Labour Armed Forces Bill. Yet the provenance of this legislation reaches all the this legislation reaches all the way back to the Bill of rights. And more than three centuries on granting authority to maintain our granting authority to maintain our armed forces remains one of, if not the most important formal constitutional responsibility of members of this House.

This is a substantial bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, a reflection of just how much the world has changed over the past five years. It is more dangerous. It is much less certain than this new era of threat demands a new era for defence. It's why our government has committed an extra £5 billion to defence spending this year, and the largest sustained increase in defence spending since the end of the Cold War. Switching funding directly from overseas aid. It's why we are proposing through this bill to increase our warfighting readiness and homeland security.

And it's why we're putting the men and women in our armed forces at the heart of defence plans. Madam Deputy Speaker, in the coming years, we will ask more of our service personnel. It is only right that they expect more of their government, and this bill makes significant steps to improve service life and to strengthen the bond between society and our forces. At the general election, we pledged to renew the nation's contract with those who serve. And I'm proud to say we are delivering on that promise.

The largest pay increase for our armed forces in more than two decades. Expanded wraparound childcare support, an independent armed forces commissioner and a funded plan now for safe, decent homes for every forces family. Through this legislation, we can I will in a moment. Through this legislation, we continue the work of renewing that commitment with better housing, better services, better protections for those who serve. I give way very briefly.

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Does he agree with me that we have a good turnout in the House tonight to debate the Armed Forces Bill, which affects the quality of life and service of the brave life and service of the brave people who keep us safe. Does he also agree with me that yet again, when we debate this vital subject, when we debate this vital subject, there is not a single reform member of Parliament in the chamber? Isn't it wrong that these people wrap it wrong that these people wrap themselves in the flag that never come along to defend the people who actually protect that flag?

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The. Madam Deputy Speaker, there's a general support for the hon. Gentleman's right hon. Gentleman's comments on both sides, this armed Forces Bill, and I'll go on to say, Forces Bill, and I'll go on to say, commands all party support. And it's a shame that we haven't got all parties in this House to all parties in this House to demonstrate that. Madam Deputy Speaker, the bond between the British people and those sworn to British people and those sworn to defend them is a proud part of our nation's security.

The purpose of the Armed Forces Covenant is to strengthen that bond, and the policy and principles underpinning the covenant were first set out in a command paper in 2008, under the last Labour government, and to this day to the right hon. Gentleman's point. The covenant maintains strong cross-party support across this House and across the UK. I

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give way to the hon. Lady. To the Minister, and I too welcome the Armed Forces Covenant and the legal duty that it will and the legal duty that it will place on devolved nations. Of course, while Wales has 5% of the course, while Wales has 5% of the population, we contribute 7% to army strength. Could you tell me, therefore, whether there will be therefore, whether there will be any extra new money coming to Wales to support this, particularly in the NHS, which is of course so

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beneficial to veterans? Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker. I reckon that I welcome the leader replied in this House and her welcome for the Bill and her support for the forces. She's right that the record of the Welsh nation in supporting our armed forces and providing recruitment for some of the best of our armed forces is long and proud. Madam Deputy Speaker, she also knows that the Barnett formula has already delivered a record increase in defence in NHS spending into Wales, and I'll go on to speak about the role of the devolved nations in implementation of the covenant.

So I will indeed.

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Mr. On devolved issues, Secretary, to explain why, though Secretary, to explain why, though the Armed forces covenant is being extended to local authorities, extended to local authorities, that's happening everywhere except Northern Ireland. Why are the councils in Northern Ireland not councils in Northern Ireland not also included in this Bill? Why are they excluded?

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they excluded? Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, just as the 2001 act required a degree of discussion, agreement and devolution to the devolved administrations and governments, including in Northern Ireland. So this one will. Our officials are in deep discussion with Northern Ireland Office officials. My hon. Friend, the Armed Forces Minister, has written to Ministers in the devolved administrations, and I'm confident that we'll have in place the arrangements that allow following this bill. The covenant, the Armed Forces covenant, to be fully implemented into legislation at every level of government, UK national government, devolved governments and local authorities

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across the UK. I will give way. The Secretary of State for. Giving way. Further to that intervention, as the Secretary of State will know, the covenant is predicated on veterans not having a disadvantage veterans not having a disadvantage from their service, but those in Northern Ireland will be subject to records that don't apply to records that don't apply to civilian terrorists. Can he confirm that there will be no disadvantage to those veterans in Northern Ireland, and therefore the covenant will apply to them as originally intended?

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Well, the right hon. Gentleman knows that he's speaking about the legislative provision of a different bill that is before this House. We will deal with that. We will strengthen the protections for veterans, and we will put in place veterans, and we will put in place what has failed through successive governments because it's been too difficult. A right hon. Friend is leading the way on this, that we will have a settlement that finally allows us to move and implement fully the the Good Friday Agreement.



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I give way to my. Friend. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thank the Secretary State for giving way. Just briefly State for giving way. Just briefly on supporting veterans. He will know. Before I came to this place, one of the jobs I did was work at a homeless charity. What was particularly difficult was having homeless veterans coming to me in need of support. So would the need of support. So would the Secretary of State outline what additional support this government is giving to home our veterans? is giving to home our veterans? We've got over nearly 2000 veterans in in my constituency.

Harlow. And also what we do to support them

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with their mental health issues. I think particularly of PTSD. Thank you. Yes, my friend is right. So the

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Yes, my friend is right. So the short answer is record levels of funding to support mental health and wellbeing for veterans, record and wellbeing for veterans, record levels of support for veterans groups with a new wave of valour centres shortly to be announced by centres shortly to be announced by my hon. Friend the Minister for Veterans and People and of course, Veterans and People and of course, a commitment to ensure that no veteran now will lose out on their right to social housing because of the local connection test that was in place until this government

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removed it after the election. I give way to the right hon. Gentleman. And I just take him

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Gentleman. And I just take him back to the earlier exchange about Northern Ireland veterans, and I basically got some some good news basically got some some good news and some bad news for him. The good news is that I strongly suspect news is that I strongly suspect that at the end of all of the raked up trials that are held against up trials that are held against former Northern Ireland veterans, none will actually be convicted. The bad news is that isn't the purpose of doing all this.

The purpose is to put them through a nightmarish ordeal which allows Republican terrorists to rewrite history. So he shouldn't be quite as satisfied with the state of the government's legislation regarding Northern Ireland veterans. It's a disgrace, and it's tearing up something that was working and could have worked, according to four reports, gave testimony to the

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defence committee previously. Well, I know the right hon. Gentleman is bad news and his good Gentleman is bad news and his good news. We will return to this discussion when we return to the Committee stage of the Northern Ireland Legacy Bill, and when we do Ireland Legacy Bill, and when we do so, we will have in place strengthened protections for veterans. And that will be a result of the really detailed discussions that my right hon. Friend, the Northern Ireland Secretary. My hon.

Northern Ireland Secretary. My hon. Friend, the Armed Forces Minister, I myself, military leaders, and the Prime Minister indeed has had in recent weeks with representatives of the forces, representatives of some of the special forces and also former military chiefs that have

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also a point of view on this. On that point, too. Just briefly. On that point, please. Thank you.

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On that point, please. Thank you. Honourable. Gentleman, briefly, as he mentioned, such a widespread when we debated the remedial order last we debated the remedial order last Wednesday, over 100 Labour MPs abstained, including the Prime Minister, including the defence Secretary, including the armed Secretary, including the armed forces Minister and two thirds of the Cabinet. If it's such a good idea, why didn't the Defence

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idea, why didn't the Defence Secretary come here and vote for it? Exactly? Madam Deputy Speaker. Quite honestly, I wasn't able to be at the house at the time. It was an important piece of legislation. It paves the way for the Northern Ireland Legacy Bill. It removes the immunity that his government tried to put in place for terrorists. It removes it removes the right of 200 families who lost members of their members of their family, killed by terrorists in the Troubles, from getting at the same access to truth, information and a degree of justice.

Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, if the House will permit me, the House will permit me. I'm actually going to return to the Armed Forces Bill, which is the legislation before the

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House this afternoon. I will indeed. On the bill in question. Madam

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On the bill in question. Madam Deputy Speaker, I'd like to ask my right hon. Friend. Well, first of all, congratulate him on the fact all, congratulate him on the fact that we are doing so much by taking housing back into control and upgrading it, and by the fact that we are rolling out the valour centres. And I know that charity links in my constituency has put in an excellent application for that. And I also welcome the fact that this bill is going to strengthen the Armed Forces Covenant, ensuring it covers all public services.

But I would like to ask my right hon. Friend, there is goodwill across this country. There is goodwill in devolved governments and in councils. But how are we going to ensure that right across all public services, including those devolved in Wales, it actually delivers for veterans because we want them to have the very, very best of services in all circumstances.

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Yeah. Madam Deputy Speaker, my hon. Friend is entirely right. We do that in two ways. We're doing it already in discussions with other government departments and the devolved administrations, as well as working with councils where we as working with councils where we can. And secondly, we'll do that by helping with issuing guidance, helping with issuing guidance, sharing best practice, and we'll encourage the development of. The encourage the development of. The rest to meet the very best. So we reduce the degree of postcode, lottery and patchwork support for veterans across the UK.

Madam, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will give way to my right hon. Friend here and then to the hon. Gentleman.

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Then I will move on. I'm very. Grateful to. My right hon. Friend for giving way, and he's

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Friend for giving way, and he's making an extremely good speech. He will recognise that one of the ways in which we have the backs of in which we have the backs of existing military personnel, as well as veterans, is by offering, through the Joining Forces through the Joining Forces Partnership, access to a credit union for existing military personnel. Can my right hon. Friend personnel. Can my right hon. Friend assure me that there's nothing in this bill that would prevent further promotion to even more military personnel of the benefits of credit union membership, and would he be willing to meet or to ask one of his ministerial team to meet, to explore how we might promote those that Joining Forces

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partnership even further? Well, I. Pay tribute to my right hon. Friend. He has been a ceaseless campaigner for co-operative and credit union provision. All his all credit union provision. All his all his career in this House. I will certainly ensure that he meets with certainly ensure that he meets with the Defence Minister in charge. My right. My hon. Friend, the Minister for the Armed Forces in this bill for the Armed Forces in this bill and I if if he if he permits me, take that as an early indication of interest, perhaps in serving on the committee when he compresses arguments for himself for the value of credit unions and the value of potentially for members of the armed forces and for veterans.

I

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give way to the hon. Gentleman. For giving way. He talked about a patchwork quilt and postcode a patchwork quilt and postcode lottery, Operation Restore, which supports military veterans and guards to physical and mental health. Northern Ireland veterans northern resident veterans don't have the same access to the have the same access to the devolved institutions of the likes of the Robert Jones or even the Agnes Hunt Orthopaedic Hospital. Agnes Hunt Orthopaedic Hospital. Will this legislation actually enable Northern Ireland resident veterans to access those services that are accessible to English veterans?

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Well, a large part of the hon. Gentleman knows this, but a large part of the services on which our forces veterans, depend, our services have come under the jurisdiction of the Northern Ireland Assembly and government and Ireland Assembly and government and the councils in that area. They have a strong and doughty champion in the Veterans Commissioner in Northern Ireland, which I know he works closely with, and I would encourage him to make his arguments encourage him to make his arguments not just in the House, but back in Northern Ireland with exactly those bodies that have the direct responsibility for service provision that matters so much to the veterans.

Madam Deputy Speaker. To come back to the question of cross-party support, not just in this House and across the UK, the covenant also has 14,000 companies and other organisations signed up as signatories and almost every council in every part of the UK has an armed forces champion to promote the interests and and adoption of the covenant itself. In opposition, we supported the previous government when they brought the covenant partly into law in the 2001 act. With this bill, we complete the job.

We extend the Armed Forces covenant across central government, devolved governments and at the local level, fulfilling a promise we made in our manifesto. This means social care, employment support, other public services will be legally required to consider the unique circumstances faced by forces, personnel, by their families and by veterans and in government. I. In government, we've ensured NHS England now operates a single point of contact via integrated care boards. The service Pupil Premium supports 76,000 pupils and the local connections test has been removed, so no veteran can be disqualified from social housing in their local area because they've been living elsewhere in the armed forces.

But we know the covenant

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can do more and with this bill it will do more. I give away to the hon. Lady. I thank the Secretary of State

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I thank the Secretary of State for giving way, and I'm pleased to hear his comments about social care. But an awful lot of care in this But an awful lot of care in this country is provided by family carers, and they can often be the carers, and they can often be the serving personnel themselves or the children of serving personnel. Does the Secretary of State consider that this bill, as currently drafted, is doing everything possible to support unpaid carers

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who face a greater postcode lottery as they move around the country as a result of their service? Yes.

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Yes. Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, this this bill should ensure that if this bill should ensure that if forces families are in that situation as unpaid carers, there should be no penalty, no disqualification for having an armed forces connection and armed forces connection and experience, and that when they are looking for support from local services, those services will in future have to take into account the unique experience and circumstances that those families

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and those individuals face. I give way to the hon. Gentleman, right hon. Gentleman. Of State. He refers.

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To the local connection test. removal.

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Of that test was initiated by the previous. Government. Which is not the impression. That he gave.

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In his initial remarks? It certainly is the case. And secondly, is it his intention to allocate is it his intention to allocate service housing going forward on

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the basis primarily of rank or primarily on need? No. Madam Deputy Speaker, look, the local connections test. Like a the local connections test. Like a lot of things, the previous government talked a lot, but we've got on and actually done a lot of got on and actually done a lot of these a lot of these things. This bill takes, takes that intent and that determination several steps that determination several steps further. And I move on to housing, because, Madam Deputy Speaker, behind many of the men and women behind many of the men and women who serve our country are husbands, wives, partners, children who support them in their service and who bear the weight of their absence during deployments.

For these families, the nation has a moral duty to provide safe and decent housing. And as recent governments failed, so satisfaction with military family homes fell in 2023 to its lowest level on record. And I've seen for myself and many others in this House have seen why damp mould, broken boilers, ill fitting doors and windows, even a hole in the wall of a children's bedroom. None of us would tolerate our families living in these conditions, nor should those in our armed forces.

It's a betrayal of service and the crisis in defence. Housing tracks back directly to perhaps one of the worst ever privatisation deals. Under the terms of the Annington sale in 1996, the taxpayer picked up all costs for maintenance, repairs and rent. But all the benefits of development opportunities or increasing property values were surrendered to a private equity fund. When I was appointed defence secretary 18 months ago, that deal was costing the taxpayer over £600,000 a day.

So just six months after the election, our government reversed it, bringing over 36,000 military family homes back into public ownership. So we can now plan and invest in the future. 12 months after the election, we delivered our consumer charter, guaranteeing which should never have been in question, higher moving standards, quicker repairs and named housing officer for every family. And the renovation of the very worst homes, 1000 of which were completed ahead of schedule before Christmas. And our charter also tore up rules that should never have been written.

So forces families now have freedom to decorate their own homes and keep pets without seeking permission. And then in November, Madam Deputy Speaker, we published our Defence Housing Strategy, our plan for the wholesale renewal of Service family estate, backed by a landmark ten year investment programme totalling over £9 billion. All told, 9 in 10 of all forces family homes will be upgraded, renewed or rebuilt. And now, less than three months after the Defence Housing Strategy was published, this bill delivers a central recommendation of that strategy.

The creation of a specialist arm's length organisation, the Defence Housing Service. With the plan, with the investment and now with the Defence Housing Service, we will end the scandal of service families living in substandard housing and we will deliver the homes the country needs. When Labour said at the election we would stand on the side of our

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armed forces. This is what we meant. Yeah. Madam Speaker, all those who

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Madam Speaker, all those who serve our country rightly expect to be able to do so with the fullest respect. They certainly must be respect. They certainly must be able to do so free from any fear or able to do so free from any fear or abuse. And last year we commissioned and published the UK's first military wide survey into first military wide survey into sexual harassment. We did that to provide, for the first time, a no holds barred baseline to fully confront the problem.

The results were sobering, including two thirds of our service women, one third of our service men experienced some form of sexualised behaviour. And let me be clear, this has absolutely no place within our armed forces, just as it has no place within any workplace. Not now, not ever. Mr. speaker, the previous government did take steps to improve victim and witness care, and we can see some of the benefits of those steps. But it is also clear that more now must be done.

And so we've established a new single tri service complaints team to to take the most serious complaints out of the chain of single service command for the first time. And we've launched a pioneering new prevention programme in Catterick and Plymouth, working directly with young recruits on our bases to prevent unacceptable behaviours. Through this Bill, we go further to strengthen protections for our service personnel and ensure perpetrators have nowhere to hide. Together, the provisions in this bill will make available in the service justice system a comprehensive range of protection orders, including social harm, domestic abuse and stalking.

It will strengthen supervision of offenders on release from prison. It will ensure that service restraining orders are enforceable in the criminal justice system. Once a defendant has left the armed forces, it will place a duty on the Secretary of State to issue a code of practice, setting out the services that victims can expect to receive in the service justice system, and it will allow victims to choose whether they wish to have their case heard in a civil or a military court, though the formal decision will be taken by the prosecutor.

I'll give way to the hon. Gentleman.

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For giving way. I'm greatly encouraged. I think we're all greatly encouraged by what the Secretary of State has said in Secretary of State has said in relation to victims. I'm very conscious that sometimes we have very young people, maybe 16, 17, 18, very young people, maybe 16, 17, 18, during the forces who find themselves under pressure, away from home, away from their parents, from home, away from their parents, maybe vulnerable, and to start with, and it's really important that there's a structure in place where there's a structure in place where they can go to, to to give their complaint and that that complaint will be heard and won't be lost somewhere in the in the, the system of of of those who are above them, whether it be officers, whether it be sergeants, whether it be corporals.

So can they please tell us when it comes to looking after those very vulnerable people who need help at the very beginning and need access to, to people who understand their circumstances? Is

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that part of this process? Well. Like the hon. Gentleman, I'm

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Like the hon. Gentleman, I'm deeply proud that our armed forces will take 16 year olds. We'll give them skills, discipline, change the them skills, discipline, change the course of their career and the course of their future life. If course of their future life. If they if they suffer any of the the abuse and harassment that I'm abuse and harassment that I'm talking about here, the tri service complaints team, take that out of the single chain of command. We've legislated as a house with support across the house for an independent armed forces commissioner with the power not just to deal with complaints, but also to launch inquiries where there is a pattern of problems that they pick up.

So the safeguards are in place, the protections are in place. I hope that gives young people looking at a future career and recruitment to the armed forces more confidence. I hope it gives the families that want to see them launched well in their lives. More confidence in the future. Make no mistake, these are substantial reforms reflecting both the seriousness of the problem and our resolve to root it out. These measures are a result of the Mod being, for the first time ever, part of a cross-government Violence against women and girls strategy.

And for the first time, Ministers and chiefs being united and determined to play a part in this government's central mission to halve violence against women and girls in a decade. I will. This

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will be my last. Giving way. Thanks for giving way. And I really do commend the progress made really do commend the progress made on violence against women and girls and in the bill. I just wondered if Secretary of State was aware that there's possibly a gap on Royal Naval ships where the commanding officers can administer justice for disciplinary offences and some criminal conduct offences through criminal conduct offences through the summary hearing process, where they investigate the allegation and determine whether the accused is determine whether the accused is guilty.

This means that they're potentially carrying out very serious investigations in the absence of a warrant card holder, which could be things like serious sexual assaults. And so I wondered if Secretary of State could confirm if this being, if this is being addressed and if he if he would explore the possibility of investigation. Trained MPs being on

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these ships, which are often at sea for more than six months. Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, the

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Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, the hon. Lady's made it very detailed point very clearly. I said perhaps another bid to be on the bill another bid to be on the bill committee. It's exactly the sort. It's exactly the sort of issue that should be examined in detail, in should be examined in detail, in detail at that point in the passage, Madam Deputy Speaker, moving, Madam Deputy Speaker, moving, moving on. The first duty of any government in this House would be the first to endorse.

This is to keep its citizens safe. And in the age of drones, is rapidly changing the nature of war and the nature of homeland defence. And so it is essential that we have the power and the authority to protect defence sites from any current or future threats. And I promised back in October to to introduce new legal powers to bring down unidentified drones over UK military bases. This bill will create a regime allowing defence personnel to better detect, deter and defeat drones, posing a threat to defence property and activities.

The reforms I'm going to move on because I'm conscious and I'm sure the hon. Gentleman wants to make his contribution. I'm conscious, conscious of how many people want to speak. These. These reforms are designed to be both flexible and future proof, allowing defence to adapt to the ever changing and increasing threats. And if the strategic review were boiled down to one core objective, it would be to raise the level of warfighting readiness in order to strengthen our deterrence. Crucial to achieving a sustainable, efficient, rapid potential.

Transition to war will be our reserve forces. Madam Deputy Speaker, in 2024, more than 1 in 5 troops training Ukrainian forces on Operation Interflex, which is the British led multinational military operation supporting Ukraine armed forces. 1 in 5 were reservists and integral part of the operation, and very often the deployment and exercising of our forces. So this bill will make it easier to mobilise personnel earlier ahead of the outbreak of war. Align the time for which recall applies across all three services to 18 years, and increase the maximum age at which reservists can be recalled from 55 to 65.

And on that point, can I just say we have cyber operators, we have trainers, we have medics, we have translators at the moment being shown the door to the military only because of an arbitrary age. Men and women who will continue to go on doing their profession in civilian life for many years after they're forced out of the military. This makes no sense. No sense for the reservists, no sense for our nation's security. And that's why through this bill, we must act and will be building a major boost to our readiness to fight during this era of increasing threat.

So, Madam Deputy Speaker, let me end by recalling our manifesto at the election at the heart of our security and the men and women who serve and risk their lives for this country. We said this bill gives legislative force to that labour principle with better housing, better services, better protections to those who serve. We pledged to renew the nation's contract with those who serve. Through this bill. We're delivering exactly that, backing those who sacrifice so much, making Britain safer, delivering for defence, delivering for Britain.

I

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commend this bill to the House. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The question is that the bill be

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now read a second time. Shadow Secretary of State. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. And it is a privilege to be able to open for the opposition on the Second Reading of this Armed Forces Bill. Given the global circumstances in which we find ourselves and the sense that the ability of our armed forces to stand up to renewed threats has not been at issue to threats has not been at issue to this degree for many years. But before turning to the bill, I wanted to take this opportunity to
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James Cartlidge Portrait James Cartlidge MP (South Suffolk, Conservative)
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place on record my thanks and those of the opposition to a particularly special group of people, those special group of people, those members of the British armed forces who served in Afghanistan in the who served in Afghanistan in the cause of freedom. And in the wake of the horrific nine over 11 attack on our closest ally, the United on our closest ally, the United States of America. Nine over 11 was not just an attack on the US mainland, but also on ourselves, mainland, but also on ourselves, and not only because of the 67 British lives that were lost when the Twin Towers were hit, but also because our Western way of life seemed to be under direct attack.

So I am glad that President Trump followed his wholly inaccurate and misjudged remarks about the service of our personnel in Afghanistan, with praise for our military, but their contribution should never have been in doubt. And given the immense pain his words will have caused the loved ones of those who were lost in Afghanistan. We send a message to those families today that theirs was far from a loss in vain. It was a just cause where British soldiers played as much a part as anyone else, and one for which we will be forever grateful.

I give way to our friend.

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I'm very grateful for the words of my right hon. Friend, if I may. Would he also associate himself Would he also associate himself with the Canadian, Danish, French, Australian, New Zealand and many other armed forces around the world who also served alongside us in that NATO operation, who also stood that NATO operation, who also stood by us. Even though article five does not apply to Australia, does not apply to New Zealand, and still

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not apply to New Zealand, and still lost troops in combat. Yet, I didn't hear an apology for them. Well, first of all, very grateful to my right hon. Friend for his service and for other colleagues in the chamber today who served in Afghanistan. And he's absolutely right. When we had the debate about Greenland and the points that were made by the president, I made the point on the media round that Denmark had the highest per capita losses in Afghanistan, and the other nations

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all suffered. We all fought together because it was a common cause. I will give way to the. Gentleman.

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Shadow Secretary state for giving way. He knows that I always try to find cross-party consensus. Would he join me in praising Private Robert Foster, who was from Harlow, who who lost his life in Harlow, who who lost his life in Afghanistan and recognised across this House there are a number of MPs who had constituents who lost their lives, serve this country and

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their lives, serve this country and we should all be incredibly proud of them. Well, I'm very grateful to him. I echo what he said. I pay tribute to his constituent and all of those who sacrificed so much in that battle, in that campaign. One more

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time, then I'll make some progress. I thank the Minister for saying what he said, but let's be honest, the settlements are. Let's be honest. President Trump should never have made that statement. No never have made that statement. No matter what my constituent, Channing Day, who gave her life in Helmand province, I think of Colin Helmand province, I think of Colin Thompson, who was injured and invalided out of the army because of an injury in the front line in of an injury in the front line in Helmand province, just two out of many.

And does he not feel as I feel for my family's hurt by what

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President Trump has said and he's apologised, but he should never have said it in the first place. Yeah.

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Yeah. He hits the nail on the head and I don't need to add anything else. I think we all agree, and I think I think we all agree, and I think we all pay tribute to all of those who served in Afghanistan. Moving on to the bill, given its necessity on to the bill, given its necessity to ensure we have a functioning armed forces, we will of course, not be dividing on it. Indeed, on national security, we should always national security, we should always strive for consensus where possible, as has particularly been the case on Ukraine, as we have presented a united Parliament to our adversaries, something that should be a source of national pride.

Of course, as with any major piece of legislation, there will be many issues of detail we will want to tease out in the detailed scrutiny of committee. And whilst we inevitably have concerns about the underlying issue of defence funding, there are many aspects of the Bill that we support in principle. In particular, can I welcome the government's commitment to strengthening the Armed Forces covenant? Having been the party that first introduced the covenant, it will be of no surprise that we support moves to strengthen both its purpose and delivery.

That said, of course, when it comes to our veterans, we remain resolute in our total opposition to the government's policy in respect of those who served on Operation Banner to protect all of us from terrorism. The House surely cannot ignore the fact that, as we will be debating this bill designed to strengthen our armed forces in parallel, Labour will be continuing with its plan to repeal our Legacy Act and threaten a new era of vexatious claims against former soldiers. It's fair to say my right hon.

Friend will be saying more about this in his wind up on the bill's proposals relating to the service justice system. I think there is recognition on both sides of the House that we have massive lessons to learn. Of course, work to improve the system did begin under the previous government, as the Secretary of State recognised after the publication of the Atherton Report, which identified cultural failings within the forces. The then Secretary of State, Ben Wallace, took steps to enforce changes so that we could better protect women in the armed forces.

In 2022, we introduced a series of new policies, for example, clamping down on unacceptable sexual behaviours by introducing a zero tolerance approach and banning instructor trainee relationships of any sort. We also established the Defence Serious Crimes Unit and as a result of the changes we made, more people have been empowered to come forward and service personnel who have breached these policies have been discharged or convicted as a direct result. I particularly welcome steps in the bill to ensure that the service justice system protects victims of the most serious offences from further harm.

The reality is that to implement cultural change in any large organisation does not happen overnight, but we will work with the government in the forthcoming sessions on the detail of their proposals to ensure we find a better way to deliver justice within the armed forces. Now moving to the proposed changes to the reserve forces, I pay tribute to all those serving as reservists, including, as was pointed out, those on Operation Interflex. They are a critical part of our fighting strength. That said, given the heightened threat level we face today, we can surely all recognise that nations geographically closer to the Russian threat, such as Finland, draw a major part of their overall military strength and thereby conventional deterrence from possessing a large and active reserve.

So, as such, it is important that we understand more of the detail about the government's plans to increase the number of active reserves by 20%, as stated in the SDR, but with a vague time timeline. I quote most likely in the 2030s. Now we can all see there is a big difference between 2031 and 2039, and that the threat we face is nearer. So I wonder if the Minister for the Armed Forces in his wind up, could tell us if this will be in the next Parliament or the one after.

We also welcome proposals to make reservists life more flexible, particularly incentivising regulars to stay in the reserve as they explore new careers. In fact, this is exactly what was suggested in the Haythornthwaite review, which was commissioned under the previous government and delivered by my right hon. Friend for South West Wiltshire and made the important recommendation for so-called zigzag careers, enabling far greater flexibility between reserve and regular service. So we welcome that and we'll look at that further. Madam Deputy Speaker, moving on to the bill's proposals for armed forces accommodation, buying back the defence estate was my top strategic priority as Minister for procurement.

Well, the hon. Lady from a sedentary position says I didn't do it between. The deal was done in 1996. Right. Who was in government between 1997 and 2010 and did nothing about this? Let me speak openly. When I got the job, I went to visit defence accommodation. As I've said many times, I was ashamed, but I said, I'm going to do something about this now. My former colleague Jeremy Quin, before me had brought test cases, but there was no work. Nothing had happened under successive governments.

I started the work with Treasury, with people across government, and that deal, which took a heck of a lot of negotiation, was under was under negotiation with the Annington group. When the

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general election came up. And I give way to my friend. The truth. Is, there. Was a level of. Serendipity in.

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Serendipity in. This which the current government is the beneficiary. Of. And that is the High Court

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And that is the High Court decision on Addington Homes. And my hon. Friend is being is being hon. Friend is being is being characteristically modest, if I may say so, because I clearly remember that he initiated this whilst he was at the Mod. And I'm very pleased to hear that the current government is taking it forward,

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which is absolutely right. But I just think we. Need to lay on record the

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provenance of all of this and who the author is, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for that. Well, I'm grateful to my friend,

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Well, I'm grateful to my friend, but we must never forget the reason for the deal in the first place. I'll take one more intervention.

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I'll take one more intervention. progress. I'm grateful for him giving way as his defence, for the shambles and the shame of of military homes. and the shame of of military homes. Really. That as Defence Secretary, he finally acted where his predecessors just sat on their hands. Is that really his defence

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of the Tory disgrace of our military homes? Shadow secretary? Well, I'm very grateful for the

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Well, I'm very grateful for the fact that he has sort of promoted me in posterity, as it were. All I me in posterity, as it were. All I can say to him is when I came to the job, I was not impressed with the state of Armed Forces accommodation. Let's pretend it accommodation. Let's pretend it didn't suddenly take that shape in the 13 years when Labour in power previously they made no attempt to buy back the defence estate, which. And so I return to the point why we did the deal in the first place.

We all agree. We all agree that those who serve our country must never be given substandard homes. And what the deal has enabled is the prospect of what could be the most exciting estate regeneration project for generations. This is the chance to deliver homes for heroes. We have to buy it back and I enabled that. That said, delivering such an opportunity requires leadership. And the reason our first policy announcement as shadow defence secretary was in June last year, was the creation of an Armed Forces Housing association to create a body that could do just that, both manage the estate and deliver a comprehensive rebuild as the best housing associations have been able to over the years.

Well, from the sedentary position, the Secretary of State says, giving it away. It's very odd when a member of the Labour Party thinks that somehow setting up a cooperative is a privatisation. Yes, the body of the government will be creating in this bill to deliver that transformation is the Defence Housing Service. Now, while we welcome its ambition to improve the supply and quality of defence housing, inevitably we will want to see that its structure means it is able to deliver as many of the outcomes as possible.

We want it from our own policy. Specifically, one of the reasons my right hon. Friend for Rayleigh and Wickford first proposed an Armed Forces Housing Association 2020 was to give armed forces families proper representation on its board. Will the Defence Housing Service ensure a similar meaningful voice for service families? And given that a priority for our housing association model was to extend home ownership throughout the ranks, not least because housing associations have access to a wider suite of home ownership products, can he tell us what role will the Defence Housing Service play in

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delivering greater home ownership among service families? The honourable leader. Thank you. Grateful to him for giving way.

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Grateful to him for giving way. I know people across the House supported Liberal Democrat plans to introduce a decent homes standard for service family accommodation, for service family accommodation, and I'm very grateful to the government for bringing that in as government for bringing that in as part of the recent Department of Housing legislation. But single serving a single service serving a single service accommodation is still really, really poor. People in North Shropshire are reporting rat infestations, being unable to sleep at night.

Would you agree with me that a single service accommodation needs to be at as a priority as

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well. When I was Minister, she was always raising this point. She's she's been a passionate defender of she's been a passionate defender of her constituents on it and I respect her for that. Of course, it's fair to say when you talk about single living accommodation as opposed to service family accommodation, there is a different funding structure. It goes through the front line commands. My own the front line commands. My own experience that can be challenging. They have their own Budget challenges. Hopefully by taking challenges.

Hopefully by taking forward this model we will see clearer lines of finance into housing. But at the end of the day, the hon. Lady is absolutely right. We need to have both SLA and SFA up to a high standard. Now turning to the bill's proposal on drones, we obviously welcome the proposals to give the military greater powers of interception in relation to drones. Madam Deputy Speaker. But we would like them to go further. For example, why hasn't the government taken the opportunity to put into law measures that provide easier access to testing ranges for our brilliant defence SMEs who, after all, have delivered some of the best drones used in Ukraine? And isn't this part of the problem when it comes to procurement? We live in a parallel universe where the government have delivered quite rightly and as we did, drones, munitions and equipment at scale to Ukraine.

But at the same time, procurement for our own armed forces has been almost frozen since the election. For there is a reason that the government's plans to increase the reserves may not happen for a decade. There is a reason any defence company will share their immense frustration at the lack of orders coming out of the Mod, whether for drones or other capability, and that's because the government has prioritised a bigger welfare bill over the scale of increase in defence spending that our armed forces require.

Madam Speaker, when it comes to defence spending, the government likes to wrap itself in the comfort blanket of arguments about the past, even when they are wrong. At Prime Minister's Questions on two occasions in recent weeks, the Prime Minister has repeatedly misrepresented what Ben Wallace actually said about defence spending. His point was not that defence spending fell under the Conservatives, but that it fell under all governments following the end of the Cold War and the so-called peace dividend. To be partisan about that observation is to hide from the truth we all have to face up to.

The world has completely changed. Now, I'm incredibly proud of what we did in government to stand by Ukraine before most other nations had acted. But irrespective of what happened before, it must be obvious that we need to spend far more on defence and far more than the government are planning. That's why Labour are making in years savings of 2.6 billion at the Mod, and have a black hole of 28 billion, because the extra cash they are planning for defence simply isn't enough.

I'm going to, gentlemen, first thank you for giving way and I do apologise for interrupting. I mean, I fully understand that he wants the government to spend more on defence. I fully understand that and I think we all share that aspiration. But you must welcome the increase in spending. We have committed to the fact that it is the biggest increase since the Cold War ended. John Glen doesn't have to apologise for interrupting. He offered to intervene and I accepted it. And that's how this place works and actually entirely fair.

Let me be frank. Yes, spending is increasing. It is not increasing anything like enough relation to how much costs are going up. When I first became shadow Secretary of State and I was calling for 2.5%, I said that would only stabilise things. I did not say that and I was very open about it. If you give me a moment. If you give me a moment, I did not say it would lead to a much bigger force and all the other things we would like to see, but we can all see what's happened.

President Trump has been very clear. They want to see NATO members spending much more and much more rapidly. We all know what the reality is. They're going to be doing less, focusing on their priorities. We need to do more, and

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that means much higher spending. I give way to the honourable and gallant gentleman Calvin Bailey. The Shadow Secretary of State,

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The Shadow Secretary of State, for giving way in the spirit of honesty then, and accepting past failures. The equipment plan that failures. The equipment plan that you presented this government with you presented this government with had a gap gap in it of 7 to 29 billion under the MoD's view, or 16 billion under the MoD's view, or 16 billion under the now. So on on that. Do you accept that you handed over a hospital?

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The hon. Gentleman shouldn't be directing that at me.

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directing that at me. James Cartlidge would be great to see the. Well, I'm very grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but when Putin hon. Gentleman, but when Putin invaded Ukraine, something pretty extraordinary happened. Inflation went through the roof right around the world. The whole world was the world. The whole world was trying to buy defence equipment, and it still is. And guess what that means a higher inflation rate that means a higher inflation rate in defence. Anyone? If you just I'm responding to his first intervention.

Anyone coming into government should have had some sense that there is going to be inflationary pressure in the system. That's not the only reason there's a 28 billion black hole, but it is a key factor. And I'm going to make some progress now. So I'll give way to my friend.

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Very, very briefly. It's all well and good to say that defence well and good to say that defence spending has increased since it was realised that the peace dividend is realised that the peace dividend is inappropriate for a post Ukraine invasion situation, but the fact is invasion situation, but the fact is that during the 1980s, when we were in the grip of the Cold War, we in the grip of the Cold War, we weren't talking about spending 5% in ten years time, or 3.5% in four years time.

We were actually spending between four and a half and 5% of GDP every single year in

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that period in the 1980s. James Cartlidge. Well, I'm grateful to my right hon. Friend. He's right. The last hon. Friend. He's right. The last time anyone spent 5% on defence in this country was in 1985, when President Gorbachev, I think, entered the Kremlin. And pretty entered the Kremlin. And pretty much it's been down since then under every government. And that's the point I was making. But on the current targets, Labour's vague current targets, Labour's vague promise is to go to 3% in the next Parliament.

It's inverted commas, a promise. We believe the task is far promise. We believe the task is far more urgent and would go to 3% by the end of this parliament as a reminder about the importance of 3%, and this is critical. Madam Deputy Speaker. When Labour published the SDR last June, its independent authors stated on the same day that the promise of 3% and I quote, established the affordability of their recommendations as such, with no certainty over when Labour will get to 3%.

Isn't this why the defence investment plan promised for last autumn still hasn't been delivered? So can the Minister tell us in his wind up speech whether whether the dip will be published before the spring? I think that's the meteorological spring, by the way, because there is much to welcome in this bill. But it will not succeed if defence doesn't have the resources needed to deliver the SDR Madam Speaker. We look forward to debating this bill in detail and doing whatever is possible to make it workable.

But the government, for its part, needs to do their bit. Finally delivering the step change in defence spending that our armed forces actually need. If they are

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to do the job we ask of them. Now, before I call the chair of the Defence Select Committee, members might like to be aware there are a lot of colleagues wishing to speak this evening, so wishing to speak this evening, so I'm not planning to put a time Dhesi.

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Dhesi. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. Firstly, on behalf of our House of Commons Defence Committee, may I thank the Secretary of State for the memorandum his department provided to us and also for last week's briefing organised by the Ministry of Defence Bill team. May I also
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Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi Portrait Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi MP (Slough, Labour)
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put on the record our deep gratitude to the British Armed Forces for keeping us safe and secure. Yeah, it's a sad fact that our world is becoming a more our world is becoming a more dangerous place and I cannot praise enough the brave men and women who enough the brave men and women who face down that anger every day to protect our nation. Madam Deputy Speaker. This is a wide ranging bill, and time unfortunately, does not allow me to address all its aspects in detail.

I draw the House's attention to my committee's letter to the Minister for the Armed Forces last week, in which we give more detailed observations on the bill. Madam Speaker, first of all, clause two of the bill expands the Armed Forces Covenant following the government's manifesto pledge to put the covenant fully into law. The Defence Committee held an inquiry into the covenant last spring, in which we recommended that the covenant be extended to all government departments and to the devolved administrations, and that its scope be extended beyond housing, education and health into other areas of life where service personnel can experience disadvantage, such as employment and social care.

And yes, I will give way.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And would my hon. Friend agree with me that the Armed Forces Covenant me that the Armed Forces Covenant is so important across all of our local authority services? And would local authority services? And would he therefore share my surprise that there aren't any colleagues from the Turquoise Brigade opposite who

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the Turquoise Brigade opposite who can even be bothered to come in and listen to this debate this evening? Yes. Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi.

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Yes. Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi. I thank my hon. Friend from Warwickshire and indeed she is 100% correct. At such times it is to be expected that all parties are attending the debate, and I think that point has been eloquently made by my hon. Friend, and I hope that members of the Reform Party that if they are serious about defence, they should be attending defence debates and questions on a regular basis. But I am pleased, Madam Deputy Speaker, that clause two does exactly that in this strengthening of the covenant is indeed welcome.



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This just. Briefly, I shall. On that point. There are rumours that reform

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There are rumours that reform are going to announce a shadow Cabinet. Constitutionally, there is only one shadow Cabinet, which is the opposition. Even the Lib Dems don't have one. So instead we're going to call it the drinks Cabinet because Nigel likes a drink and so because Nigel likes a drink and so does Lee. Does he agree that drinks Cabinet should have a defence spokesman in it?

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spokesman in it? I do thank the shadow defence Minister and he is right on both counts. Firstly, there is only one opposition, His Majesty's loyal opposition. Obviously the Conservative Party at present, but I certainly would not be using the terms about a drinks Cabinet. But I think the the shadow defence Minister makes a very valid point. The Secretary of State, going back Madam Deputy Speaker will remember that we cautioned in our report that those who are expected to deliver the covenant must be involved in co-designing the new duty, and must be appropriately resourced to deliver that.

Otherwise, there is a real risk of diluting their existing commitments, and I would be grateful if the Secretary of State or Ministers could reassure the House on this particular point. The Secretary of State will also be aware that our inquiry concluded that updating the covenant in law is only part of the change that needs to occur. During the course of our work, we found that adherence to the existing covenant legal duty is very patchy. Too often organisations which are subject to that duty do not understand it or worse yet, disregard it, and this understandably leads to disillusionment among the forces community.

So can the Minister for the Armed Forces in his winding up speech, please update the House on the Ministry of Defence's plans to

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improve implementation. I will. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech, and I would like excellent speech, and I would like to commend him to the wider public beyond this House. In my own area, local council and many voluntary sector organisations have done a very impressive job of adhering to the Armed Forces covenant, and they are willing to do more. And I'd like to thank Edinburgh Council and organisations like the Forgotten British Gurkha Charity. Does he believe there's a role here for those organisations which are leading on this to share best

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practice to help raise the quality of adoption of the of the new measures? Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi.

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Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi. Well, friend for his kind words, and I'm also very pleased to hear that his Reading Central that his Reading Central constituents, the council and other organisations are stepping up to the plate and indeed best practice the plate and indeed best practice should be shared more widely to ensure that the better implementation of that across our

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implementation of that across our country. And will the Minister? I will give way. I thank the honourable.

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Member for giving way. And and on that point, I'd also like to declare my support for Horsham declare my support for Horsham District Council's work, who confirmed to me last year that they're examining the cost of they're examining the cost of exempting military compensation payments from all locally means tested benefits. So with the hon. tested benefits. So with the hon. Member, agree with me that on a national basis, in the spirit of the Armed Forces covenant, that military compensation payments

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military compensation payments should be exempted from means tested benefits. hon. Friend, the Member for Horsham for making that strong point. And indeed, that is something that my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead and I, along with other members, have actually discussed within the all party parliamentary group on the Armed Forces community. And so I hope that Ministers are listening and will take remedial action. And will the Minister also commit to sharing with the House as soon as possible the draft guidance, which will be issued to organisations that are subject to the updated duty? I will give way.



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For the chair of the Select Committee for giving way. He's making a very powerful speech. Part of the challenge with the Armed Forces Covenant Bill is that actually the delivery requires actually the delivery requires other government departments to engage and to deliver their engage and to deliver their responsibilities. Does the chair of the Select Committee agree with me that this is some work that needs that this is some work that needs to be loaded on those other Secretaries of State by all of

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those members here present today? Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi. I thank my fellow Defence Committee member. Indeed, that is Committee member. Indeed, that is something that we have forcefully made within our Defence Committee made within our Defence Committee deliberations, and I'm sure that Ministers will be aware and will take appropriate action. Madam take appropriate action. Madam Deputy Speaker, if I can now turn to the service justice system measures within the bill. It is measures within the bill. It is very welcome to see that the government has used this bill to focus on better protection for victims of serious offences, and Ministers know full well how much of a priority that is for our committee.

Victims of appalling crimes such as domestic violence and sexual offences, have been continually failed by the system and the measures in this bill can make a positive difference for them. However, we would have liked to see the government go further and implement our predecessor committee's recommendation that cases of rape and sexual assault are automatically heard in civilian courts. This was also the recommendation of the Lyons Review in 2018. So I hope the Minister, when responding to the debate, will explain why the government has decided not to take this approach.

Mr. speaker, some of the most significant measures in this bill relate to the role of the reserves. As the Strategic Defence Review recognises, there is huge talent available in our reserves and defence does not make as much use of that talent as it could. We are pleased that the Bill attempts to change this. However, while the intentions of the measures in this bill are clear, their effect is less so. It's not clear how many additional reservists the government expects those measures to generate, and so it is difficult to know whether the bill will make a meaningful improvement in our defence readiness, which we all know is extremely important at this point in time, given the geopolitics that we are faced with.



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Yes, I will give my give way to my friend from Shipley. I thank the gentleman for giving

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I thank the gentleman for giving way and he's talking very positively there about the amazing contribution of our reservists. I'd contribution of our reservists. I'd like to add to that the amazing contribution of our cadets in the Shipley constituency. We have both Shipley constituency. We have both Air Cadets and Army cadets in Shipley and Bingley. Does he join Shipley and Bingley. Does he join me in welcoming the proposals to bring together and unify the Reserve Forces and Cadets Association into a single non-departmental public body? But will he also join me in, in urging the Minister to make sure that that new body continues to value the

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role of volunteer input from cadets? I thank my hon. Friend, the Member for Shipley, and she makes Member for Shipley, and she makes an excellent point, very forcefully, and I'm sure that the Minister has and I'm sure that the Minister has heard her making that particular point. The government, I feel Madam Deputy Speaker needs to properly Deputy Speaker needs to properly model the impact of these changes and share its findings with the House. We also need to know the House.

We also need to know the fitness criteria. I know the Minister for the Armed Forces is very, very fit given his recent endeavours, including on Mount Everest. But the fitness criteria, how would that be applied to individuals subject to the new higher recall age of 65?

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Turning the. Honourable give way. I will give way to both my hon.

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Friends Helen Morgan. And the currently. As it stands at the moment, if you transition from the regular forces and then go from the regular forces and then go into reserves, you have to have a separate medical test, even if you're already serving. And I wondered if my hon. Friend agrees

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wondered if my hon. Friend agrees with me that that's an area that perhaps needs some work on. I thank my hon. Friend and she

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I thank my hon. Friend and she indeed makes an excellent point, and I do hope that the Ministers and the Minister for the Armed Forces will respond to that within his winding up speech. I also give way to my hon. Friend, the member.

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For Luke Akehurst. I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. Would he accept that the proposals around extending the age under which extending the age under which reservists can be called back, perhaps a small number of them might have attained the extremely might have attained the extremely high levels of physical fitness that the Armed Forces Minister has, that the Armed Forces Minister has, and be suitable for a wide range of roles. But actually some of them can be called back to to back can be called back to to back office tasks to do with analysing intelligence or training people.

And the levels of fitness that would be required would be far lower than required in any kind of combat role, but they would release people that are currently in those roles who are younger to, to, to

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take up roles nearer the front line. Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi I thank my hon. Friend from Durham for making that point, and I know some individuals, especially within media and social media, have facetiously referred to it as as facetiously referred to it as as Dad's Army. But I think that there is a role for those older reserves, especially behind the scenes, that especially behind the scenes, that they can undertake for the defence of our country. I must make progress, but I've got to give way.

Madam Deputy Speaker, to my fellow Defence Committee member. So I hope the intervention will be very brief.

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Thank you for giving way. He will recognise Warrant Officer will recognise Warrant Officer Bailey Flora, who at the age of 66 and with 45 years of service behind and with 45 years of service behind him, was not ready to take to the back room and has taken great affront at the remarks made by

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affront at the remarks made by those calling it the Dad's Army Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi. He has forcefully made that

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He has forcefully made that point to reinforce what I just said, that some individuals could seek to be facetious about this, but our reserves are our pride and I think regardless of their age, their talents need to be included as we defend our nation going forward. Turning briefly to clause three of the bill, if I may, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm pleased to see the government taking action to address the state of service accommodation. The Defence Committee were pleased that the government accepted the conclusions of our hard hitting report on service accommodation, and we hope that the new Defence Housing Service will be able to lead the renewal that is needed.

It will be important that the new body is able to act independently, Madam Deputy Speaker in the interests of the forces community and that it is subject to detailed parliamentary scrutiny in this House. Furthermore, Madam Deputy Speaker, I must draw the House's attention to clauses 38 and 39 of the bill, which would remove the existing statutory requirements for Parliament to approve the size of the armed forces. Parliamentary control of the size of the armed forces is a vitally important and long standing constitutional principle that dates back to the Bill of rights from the 17th century, and I feel we must be extremely cautious before proceeding with measures that would diminish that control.

The government says these changes are necessary to allow more flexibility in the way the regular and reserve forces are used. And indeed, my committee's sympathetic to that aim. However, it is not clear why this must require removing a statutory guarantee of parliamentary control. The government needs to justify why this measure is necessary, and consider whether there are other ways of achieving their goals that will still uphold the rights of our Parliament. In conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker and I am drawing to a conclusion you'll be pleased to hear there is much to welcome in this bill that will improve service life.

I hope the government will be able to address our the issues our Committee has raised and by doing so, build strong cross-party support for the Bill as it

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continues through the House. Thank you very much. Before I come to the Lib Dem frontbench spokesman, can I remind members to be careful, good tempered and moderate in their tempered and moderate in their language in debate if anybody needs any instruction? Pages four, nine, six and 497 of Erskine May are very

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six and 497 of Erskine May are very helpful. James MacCleary. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Our British Armed forces represent the very best of us courage, selflessness and an unwavering commitment to protect our freedoms and our way of life. And they deserve nothing less than our unwavering commitment in return. The Liberal Democrats welcome significant elements of this bill, the full enshrinement of the Armed Forces covenant in law, extending
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James MacCleary Portrait James MacCleary MP (Lewes, Liberal Democrat)
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long, the covenant has been a promise without proper teeth. The Bill gives it gives it the force of law that is already always deserved. law that is already always deserved. And we look forward to supporting that as the bill progresses. We also welcome the establishment of a also welcome the establishment of a Defence Housing Service and the £9 billion Defence Housing Strategy. Our service personnel and their families should not have to endure substandard accommodation while serving their country. The commitment to upgrade 9 in 10 military homes is progress, though I must stress, is the bare minimum we owe to those people who put themselves in harm's way for us.

That said, what will matter is pace, transparency and accountability. Given the Ministry of Defence is long and unhappy. Track record of wasting public money on failed programmes. The House deserves clarity on how this strategy will be delivered in practice. I hope the Minister, in his summing up remarks, will cover who precisely will oversee this new body, what its relationship with the department and what will be and where. Ultimate accountability, if its targets are missed or standards slips will lie without clear governance and rigorous scrutiny.

There is a real risk that warm words and large sums of money once again fail to translate into decent homes for service families. The reforms of the service justice system are long overdue, particularly the strength and protections of victims of domestic abuse, sexual violence and harassment. Every person who serves in uniform deserves to do so in safety and dignity. However, this legislation comes against the backdrop of multiple deeply troubling scandals involving abuse within our armed forces, particularly the treatment of women.

I do not doubt the commitment of any of the Ministers on the front bench in in combating this in our armed forces, but it is striking that the bill contains no specific or targeted measures to address the systemic cultural failures that have allowed such abuse to persist without a clear attempt to confront these issues head on. There is a

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risk that structural reform falls short of meaningful change. On that point, with the way I thank the hon. Member for giving thank the hon. Member for giving way, and I wondered if he would agree with me that indeed, the bill requires further clarification and detail on the service justice. Specifically, if an offence is committed overseas on a base or an operation, and if an individual would have a choice between a civilian or a military court, and civilian or a military court, and secondly, if an offence is discovered after six months, whether indeed it can still be investigated and if it can be

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investigated by military police or not. I thank my hon. Friend. I mean, these are really

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Friend. I mean, these are really important details that I think I hope the Minister will be able to pick up in his in his closing remarks. And I think it's important remarks. And I think it's important that justice is being seen to be served wherever our service personnel are in the world. The measures in this bill support measures in this bill support victims and strengthen protective. Protective orders are steps in the right direction, but they must be right direction, but they must be accompanied by a genuine commitment to accountability and cultural reform within our services.

Madam Deputy Speaker we must also be honest about what this government does not do. This is a technical renewal bill when what our armed forces need is a comprehensive, fair deal, and that that matters profoundly for Britain's security and our place in the world. The bill is silent on recruitment and retention crisis facing our armed forces. It says nothing about reversing the devastating troop cuts that have hollowed out our army. It offers no plan to rebuild regular troop numbers back above 100,000, a goal the Liberal Democrats are committed to achieving on reserves and cadets.

The government's decision to increase the upper section. Of course.

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Just on his pledge to expand the armed forces by the Army up to 100,000. Could you just outline what the additional 30,000 troops

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what the additional 30,000 troops would be rolled as would be rolled as well? James MacCleary.

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James MacCleary. I think that the question here is more about mass in the armed forces and Deployability. What specifically.

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About what? No. And for what? For deployments overseas so that we can achieve the objectives we want to do? Look, the Conservatives cut to do? Look, the Conservatives cut troop numbers during the last government. It's understandable that you're embarrassed about that. They're embarrassed about that. But that's.

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Two uses of you. It's not not me. It's understandable. Party. The opposition are embarrassed about opposition are embarrassed about that. We need to get our troop numbers back up to a critical mass that allows us to carry out our that allows us to carry out our duties. Overseas on reserves and cadets. The government's decision to increase the upper age limit to to increase the upper age limit to 65 warrants serious scrutiny. Ministers must explain whether this change would genuinely enhance operational effectiveness, skills and readiness, or whether it is simply a mechanism to inflate headline recruitment numbers without addressing the underlying retention and capability challenges facing our reserve forces.

Which brings me to the important issue of defence spending, which of course underlies all of this. The Liberal Democrats support increasing defence spending in every year of this Parliament, and we will explain how to do it. There are we are calling for a clear, credible pathway to reach 3% of GDP on defence by 2030 at the latest. Backed by cross-party talks to secure long term consensus, as part of that plan, we have proposed the introduction of time limited defence bonds, capped fixed term and legally tied to capital investment to raise up to £20 billion over the next two years.

This would allow the government to accelerate investment in capabilities set out in the Strategic Defence Review. Strengthen one moment, if that's OK, strengthen deterrence now rather than later, and send a clear signal to our allies and adversaries alike

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that Britain is serious about its grateful. That I heard the announcement by

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That I heard the announcement by the leader of his party about the bonds. Of course, it is still borrowing the money. It is added to borrowing the money. It is added to the national debt. It will have to be repaid. So the question is, where exactly would the money come

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from in terms of either cutting spending or putting up taxes? Thank you. Thank you. Hon. Member. In terms

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Thank you. Hon. Member. In terms of bonds, they are bonds issued to the public and to funds in the normal way as all these vehicles are. And this would be for people to invest in. So it wouldn't be involve cutting anything. It would be a short term borrowing that would fall within the government's existing fiscal rules, as we laid out over the weekend. It is a it is it is a it is a serious proposal to actually increase defence spending in the short term, rather than the proposals from the opposition, which are cuts to welfare, as I

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understand it, which would be a long term measure which would fall society. Very.

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Very. Very generous of him. He just said it would be bonds. Is he saying they wouldn't have to be

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repaid? Of course. Of course they would have to be repaid. And we have laid have to be repaid. And we have laid out. We have laid out very clearly this policy, which I'm happy to send a briefing to member, if that would be helpful to him for his would be helpful to him for his deliberations. But of course they would have to be repaid. There are 2 to 3 year bonds that would

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generate an immediate injection of cash into buying our armed forces need. What's the top prize? In an increasingly dangerous

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In an increasingly dangerous world, standing still is not a neutral act, and warm words without funding will not keep our country funding will not keep our country safe. What? That is why I was relieved to see reports over the weekend that the government is seeking to restart negotiations over UK access to the EU Safe Fund. I hope that it speaks to a belated I hope that it speaks to a belated and dawning realisation that President Trump is increasingly posing a threat to Britain's security and values.

At the same time, I urge the European Union to approach these discussions with pragmatism to come to the negotiating table in good faith and to recognise that the UK is an essential security partner. This is not the moment for political point scoring, putting domestic protectionism ahead of continental safety, or for setting the bar so high that shared European security is the casualty Madam Deputy Speaker a fair deal for our armed forces community means more than just equipment and strategy. It means treating service personnel and their family with dignity and respect they deserve in every aspect of their lives.

The Liberal Democrats are calling for a fair deal commission for service personnel, veterans and families to comprehensively review conditions and recommend improvements in pay, housing, diversity and transition services. We would allow families of armed forces personnel access to military, medical and dental facilities and improved mental health support for the whole armed forces community. We would waive visa application fees for indefinite leave for members of the armed forces on discharge and their families, and we would ensure that military compensation for illness or injury does not count towards means testing for benefits.

These are not fringe issues. They go to the heart of the covenant between the nation and those who serve. If we ask people to be ready to give their lives for this country, we owe them more than warm words. We owe them action on housing specifically. Whilst we welcome the Defence Housing Service, we need to go further. We would require the Ministry of Defence to provide housing above minimum standards and give service personnel stronger legal rights to repair and maintenance. Our recent campaigning secured a government commitment to assess family military homes, according to the Decent Homes Standard.

That is progress, but it must be implemented properly and swiftly. We also support the recommendations of the Atherton Report on women in the Armed Forces, and will work to put in place better structures to guard against discrimination and harassment. Our armed forces must be places where talent thrives, regardless of gender, and where everyone can serve with dignity. Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, we owe it to our armed forces to provide certainty, which makes continued delay over the long promised defence investment plan all the more conserving.

That plan must be brought forward without further delay. We cannot continue with a boom and bust cycle of defence. Reviews that leave the industry in limbo, undermine long term investment and allow vital skills and supply chains to wither away through uncertainty. Madam Deputy Speaker the Liberal Democrats look forward to engaging constructively with this bill and look forward to scrutinising its provisions carefully as it proceeds through its remaining stages. We will not stand in the way of improvements that matter to service personnel and their families, but we will continue to press for more because our armed forces deserve more, and because Britain's security demands more.

We will continue to call for reversing troop cuts, increasing defence spending to at least 3% of GDP, tackling the recruitment crisis and ensuring a comprehensive, fair deal for the armed forces community. Britain's armed forces are the finest in the world. They represent our values, defend our interests and stand ready to protect us and our allies. They deserve a government that backs them with resources, with strategy and with unwavering support. The Liberal Democrats will always champion that cause, and we will always stand shoulder to shoulder to shoulder with those who serve.

Thank you.

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Mid Derbyshire Rotherham. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. As members on all sides of the As members on all sides of the House have said over many years, this legislation is unlike most others that come before us. It is not simply a piece of government not simply a piece of government business, it's the foundation on which our armed forces rest, renewed every five years, and carries with it a deep responsibility. I am proud to stand here in support of this Bill, but here in support of this Bill, but also to reflect the priorities of my constituents in Barrow and Furness, a community whose identity and prosperity are bound within the defence of this nation.

In Barrow and Furness, thousands of highly
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Michelle Scrogham Portrait Michelle Scrogham MP (Barrow and Furness, Labour)
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skilled workers design and build the submarines that keep our nation safe. Families move in and out as safe. Families move in and out as part of service life. Veterans settle and make their homes and for barrel defence is a lived barrel defence is a lived experience. So when this House considers how we support those who serve, people in my community are serve, people in my community are listening closely. The bill comes before us at a time of profound global uncertainty. The security environment has changed dramatically in the last.

Since the last Armed Forces Act was debated in 2021, we faced new global threats, constant cyber attacks, and those who might wish to harm us are testing our levels of defence and resilience on a daily basis. In this context, the provisions to strengthen the strategic reserve are vital. Expanding the pool of former personnel who can be called on in times of national need recognises the enormous value of their skills and experience. Many veterans possess specialist capabilities in engineering, intelligence, logistics and cyber that cannot easily be replaced.

It is right that this country should draw on that expertise in a crisis. Madam Deputy Speaker, there is another aspect of this bill that I welcome wholeheartedly, and that is

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the decision to place the Armed Forces covenant fully into law. Armed. This was a clear manifesto

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This was a clear manifesto commitment of the Labour Party, and I am proud that this government is delivering it. The Defence Select delivering it. The Defence Select Committee on which I sit found that, unfortunately, many people in the armed Forces community are either armed Forces community are either not aware of the covenant or do not have a clear understanding of what it means for them. That must change. it means for them. That must change. For too long, the covenant covenant relied on goodwill alone.

Too often, service families and veterans have found themselves at a disadvantage, struggling to access housing, healthcare, education or employment because of the unique demands on their military life. Putting the covenant onto a statutory footing is not about special treatment. It's about preventing unfair treatment. It's about ensuring that those who serve are not penalised for doing so. In Barrow and Furness I see every week why that matters. I meet veterans navigating complex systems. I meet partners trying to rebuild careers after repeated relocations.

This bill offers something they have long deserved practical, enforceable recognition from the state. I also want to welcome the establishment of the new Defence Housing Service, good quality accommodation for service personnel is fundamental to morale and family well-being. Too many of our Armed Forces families have been let down over the years by poor housing and inadequate maintenance. An end to the disastrous 1996 Tory privatisation of military housing, which cost the taxpayer billions, was long overdue. Madam Deputy Speaker, Labour has always believed in strong defence.

We are the party of NATO, understanding that our nation's security is the first duty of any government. We have increased spending on defence to its highest level since the Cold War, and will increase it further in the coming years. But we also know that strength must go hand in hand with fairness. Supporting our armed forces means more than words. It means decent homes, proper healthcare, fair treatment in civilian life, and real opportunities for veterans. This bill makes progress on all those fronts.

This direction is the right one. Modernising our armed forces, strengthening support for those who serve and delivering on the promises made to them. For communities like mine in Barrow and Furness, that matters deeply. I welcome this legislation, and I look forward to working constructively with Ministers as it moves through Parliament. Our government was elected with a clear commitment to renew the nation's contract with those men and women who serve in our armed forces and the ranks of veterans who have put their lives on the line for the UK.

The message to our armed forces is clear this government is on your side.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It's a great privilege to speak in this debate. And if I may, I'm this debate. And if I may, I'm going to pay tribute to the hon. Lady who sits on the front bench, who could also be sporting the same who could also be sporting the same colours as me. And as a fellow veteran from the finest corps in veteran from the finest corps in the country, will no doubt have many contributions of her own to make.

But if I may, I'm going to
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Tom Tugendhat Portrait Rt Hon Tom Tugendhat MP (Tonbridge, Conservative)
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make. But if I may, I'm going to start off by saying today is also Australia Day and India's Republic Day. And given we're talking about the armed forces, I think it's worth remembering that it is very, very unusual for us to have gone into war in the last hundred years without very close allies by our side. In fact, the two largest volunteer armies in the world were the Indian Army in the First World War and the Indian Army in the

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Second World War. I will it was very prompt it. Well. He gave me a very good prompt,

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He gave me a very good prompt, because this morning I was at the war memorial in Bournemouth, where two new plaques were unveiled to 12 two new plaques were unveiled to 12 Indian soldiers who died in number 80 Indian General Hospital, which is now Bournemouth Town Hall, to mark their contribution to Britain's fight in World War One and to honour their sacrifice. I and to honour their sacrifice. I agree with him that too often those sacrifices of our allies, particularly our Indian allies, have been forgotten.

Would he join me in commending Ramesh Lal, who has been pivotal in making those plaques happen?

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I absolutely do, and I'm I'm very grateful that they're remembered in Bournemouth as they should be remembered across the should be remembered across the country. If I may, I'm going to crave a personal indulgence and remember Tim Robertson, who I remember Tim Robertson, who I fought alongside from the Australian Sasser in Iraq, who was killed very sadly a couple of years killed very sadly a couple of years ago fighting fires in northern Queensland. Many, many veterans go on to serve in many distinguished on to serve in many distinguished ways after they leave the service as well, some even on the front bench for the government.

May I continue down this line and just point out that we are at a moment where actually the world has changed. Many of us have just been watching the events that happened in Davos. And if I may, there were three speeches which really stood out. The first, the obvious one, of course, is the one that the president of the United States gave, which set out a vision that led many of us to question where this world is going. But there were two others I thought that were really rather important, and in a way much more fundamental to the way that we should be seeing Britain and we should be seeing our armed forces.

The first was the Prime Minister of Canada, who set out a very, very clear warning to us all that actually the comfort that we had got used to the arrangements that we had luxuriated in are no longer valid for this era. So we can talk about 2.5%. We can talk about 3% after the next election. But these are luxury beliefs. These are not realistic. Accounting for a changed world. The third speech, which in many ways was the most challenging, was actually from the Chancellor of Germany, who pointed out correctly that Europe, and in that he included us, has simply not been prepared for the challenges that we are facing now.

The Germans have answered this by spending or rather raising 100 billion in their debt. As the Honourable right hon. Member the Minister knows now, we're not in the position to be able to raise in the same way as Germany, because our debt has been higher. But the truth is, we are still facing the same threats as Germany. We're just facing them in a different way. We're facing them in the North Sea and in the Baltic. We're facing them in the Irish Sea and the Atlantic, where we're seeing Russian and Chinese vessels scraping our cables and destroying our communications.

We're trying to we're seeing the ways in which they're attacking our energy infrastructure. They're trying to hit our hospitals through cyber, and they're trying to undermine the security of this state in many different ways. So those three speeches, if I may, really should set the context for this debate, one warning us that they may no longer be here. The second, alerting us that comfort is over, and the third being absolutely clear that our contributions must rise. And that's where we come to this bill and these commitments, because I appreciate what the right hon.

Member has said, and I appreciate what my friend, the Shadow Minister has countered with. I don't wish to criticise the right hon. Member that the defence Budget is increased. I recognise it and I welcome it, but it isn't enough to increase to the level that we would like. It's necessary to increase to the level that we need because this is one Budget, this is one element of the Budget that we don't choose. It's chosen for us by the threats we face.

It's chosen for us by the posture of the Russian and Chinese forces that we face. That's certainly true, that we've seen some extraordinary news out of Beijing in the last 48 hours, where different generals have disappeared, presumably down a salt mine, as they've fallen out of favour with the chairman of the Chinese Communist Party's military committee. And it's certainly true that the Russians are embedded in the most gruesome and horrific war in Ukraine, where they're murdering more of their own people than they are of the enemy, though they're doing their best to kill as many Ukrainian civilians as they can.

But it is nonetheless true that those armies, those navies and those forces are attacking us, and we need to be ready to face them. And so that's where I'd like to look at how this bill is approaching some of that response, because we've quite rightly heard about the emphasis on the reserve. We've heard about the emphasis on the way in which medical teams and interpreters and others have contributed. And actually, one of the things I'd like to pay tribute to the military leadership on is the way in which they've looked to change the way the armed forces work with reserves for those kind of careers, those kind of skills that are very hard to get through traditional military routes.

And here I'm thinking particularly of cyber, because you're looking for something very different. I mean, I pay huge respect to my friend with whom I served on far too many adventures overseas, that he can do 30 pull ups. But how fast can he hack into a Russian terminal? I'm not sure it's his skill set. These are different skills and we need to be looking to the reserve to fill different approaches. And that's where I look at where we are in young people around the country.

Because actually, I don't know how many of you in this house, all of you Madam Deputy Speaker read the recent centre for Social Justice report on the number of graduates who are claiming welfare at the moment. Apparently it's 700,000. That's a huge number of young people who have an enormous amount to offer our community, to offer our country, and to offer our allies, but are being parked in a system that doesn't include them. And that's where I come back to what these armed forces are for, because the armed forces are not just for the defence of the realm against foreign threats.

They are for the cohesion of the realm at home. They are for bringing us together, for making us understand who we are as Brits, making us proud of who we may be as Northern Irish, as Welsh, as English, the Scottish. But understanding that we are stronger together, understanding that we're part of a greater whole. And so seeing 700,000 young people parked on welfare is a pretty big indictment, not just of the failure of government, but of the failure that we have in understanding our own place within it.

And I'm not saying the armed forces the answer to all of that, but they're surely a contributory factor that we need to be looking at. And here I go into one of the other areas that we're looking at, because over the last few years, we've heard a huge amount of conversation about defence resources for Ukraine, and we've heard about the shell shortages, we've heard about the need for armour and the need for nlaws. But what's the real need that we're looking at in Ukraine? The need for the technology that changes the game.

And when one talks to the Ukrainians, if you talk to a Ukrainian general or in fact more junior Ukrainian colonel, you'll find that the conversation is not about armour as so often as in the UK. It's not even about submarines built so brilliantly in the right in the hon. Lady's constituency in Barrow. It's actually about drones and the technology that powers them. And I say drones and technology because they are actually separate the plastic, if you like the rotors, the body lasts about nine months.

The design lasts about nine months. On the Ukrainian frontline, the power unit lasts about four weeks. But the technology that allows it to defeat the armour, to get through the jamming and to strike the enemy lasts anywhere between 7 to 14 days. And that technology, that technology, is where we need to be advancing fast, but we need the technology to do it as well. And the truth is, today, for all our talk of sovereignty, there are only two nations that have a sovereign AI capability.

And it's not us. It's the United States and China. Now, at the moment, we only have one choice, which is to use the US approach, and that is clearly the right answer today. But is it the right answer tomorrow? Now that is the question we need to be asking ourselves. We need to be asking ourselves where we can develop that technology, where we can achieve that understanding for our own defence so that we can secure within our own time frame, within our own resources, the ability to understand a battlefield, to shape events, and to determine technology that actually defeats our enemies.

Now that is a huge challenge, and I appreciate that this bill isn't here to answer all of those questions, but this surely has to be the question that the armed forces are asking now. And so, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'll close, if I may, by merely saying that yes, of course it's true. The numbers are inadequate, and it's certainly striking that in the last few weeks, the Iranian regime has murdered roughly the same number of people as are serving today in our Royal Navy.

But it's also striking that we are still, and sadly, increasingly dependent on foreign technology and not able to fill our own needs. And that is where the armed forces and indeed the Armed Forces equipment bill needs to be looking next. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, it's a privilege to speak in this it's a privilege to speak in this Armed Forces bill. Every five years, Parliament is asked to renew its consent for the maintenance of our armed forces in peacetime. And that constitutional requirement dating back to the Bill of rights in 1688, is more than a procedural necessity. is more than a procedural necessity. It is Parliament renewing the contract between the nation and
19:16
Jack Abbott Portrait Jack Abbott MP (Ipswich, Labour )
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those who serve it. And this bill reflects the changing nature of warfare, the evolving needs of our service personnel and their families, and our duty, collective and enduring, to ensure that those who defend our country are supported not only in uniform but throughout their lives. As the Member of Parliament for Ipswich, I represent a town and a county deeply entwined with the story of our national defence. Suffolk's contribution to the armed forces is profound and long standing. From Bawdsey on our coast, where the world's first operational radar radar station became a decisive force in the Battle of Britain and the air bases that have hosted generations of service personnel.

Our county has quietly but decisively shaped Britain's security and indeed, our history. The innovations developed in Suffolk saved lives, shortened the war and changed the course of our history. And that legacy reminds us of the fundamental truth that our national security is rooted in people, places and communities. And this bill recognises that by placing people, service personnel and their families at its heart. And I would like to at that moment, Madam Deputy Speaker, to reflect on President Trump's comments from last week.

Ipswich Aaron Aaron McClure from the first Battalion of the Royal Anglian Regiment died along with two of his colleagues in active service in Afghanistan. He was just 19 years old and his mother, Lorraine, was right when she said President Trump's comments were an insult to his and his colleagues legacy. Yeah. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to turn to the Armed Forces Covenant. The bill fulfils a clear manifesto commitment by fully enshrining the covenant in law. It extends the covenants legal duty beyond local authorities and public bodies to include central government departments and the devolved administrations, and it broadens the range of policy areas to which due regard must be given, and this matters deeply.

The covenant is a promise from the nation to those that serve or have served and their families, and will be treated with fairness and respect, and will face no disadvantage because of their service. But for far too long that promise has been honoured inconsistently. Veterans have struggled to access healthcare. Families have faced disruption in their education, and housing standards have far too often fallen short of what is acceptable. So by strengthening this legal duty, the bill moves the covenant from an aspiration to accountability.

It embeds fairness into decision making and ensures that public bodies right across our country take responsibility for delivering it. That legal framework is vital, but legislation alone is not enough. The covenant delivery also depends on strong community institutions, and in Ipswich one such institution is Combat Coffee, a community interest company founded by ex-soldier Nigel Seaman, which has become a national model of veteran led support. Combat coffee exists to improve the mental health and wellbeing of the armed Forces community and their families.

It does so through something deceptively simple connection through coffee mornings, outreach, volunteering and employment pathways. It rebuilds the sense of belonging that many veterans lose when they leave uniform. And in 2025 alone, Combat Coffee supported over 200 veterans through outreach activities, with more than 2000 people attending Armed Forces Community Coffee Mornings. Earlier this year, the organisation's volunteers were awarded the Queen's Award for Voluntary Service, the highest honour of voluntary group can receive. That recognition reflects not only the scale of their impact, but the depth of their understanding that mental health is not a niche issue, but a continuum, and that early community based support does save lives.

And during Armed Forces Week, I was proud to attend Combat Coffee's bigger breakfasts in Ipswich, alongside the Armed Forces Minister and the former Ipswich Town and England captain, Terry Butcher. And Terry has been has long been a passionate advocate for veterans wellbeing, informed by his own family's experience and his support for this work underlines why strong, compassionate mental health provision for veterans truly matters. Hundreds of serving personnel, veterans and cadets came together not for speeches or ceremonies, but to talk, to connect and to support one another.

Now, my friend sitting on the front bench is a highly decorated individual, but should he so wish, I'm sure he'll have the title of chief

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barista as well, should he want it. As well.

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Housing is also critical. The establishment of the Defence Housing Service has provided for in this bill is long overdue. For this bill is long overdue. For decades, defence housing has suffered from under-investment, fragmented responsibility and a fix fragmented responsibility and a fix on failed culture that has eroded trust among service families. And trust among service families. And the Defence Housing Strategy of this last year represents the biggest change to military housing in half a century, and this bill gives that strategic institutional form.

The new Defence Housing Service will be responsible for improving quality, increasing availability, regenerating defence land and, crucially, placing a service ethos at the centre of housing provision. So, for families posted in Suffolk, this will mean homes that meet modern standards, transparent complaints processes and a system that recognises that housing is not a perk but an

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operational necessity. I'd be delighted. I thank my hon. Friend for

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I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. Like many across this house, I'm on the Armed Forces Parliamentary scheme and I get to Parliamentary scheme and I get to meet some incredible people through training and people who are training and people who are actually serving, and they are just totally committed and ready to serve this country when they may serve this country when they may need to. So does he agree with me that this provision for good,

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decent housing is the least we can do to thank them? I thank my hon. Friend from

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I thank my hon. Friend from Southend East for his intervention. He's completely right. And what I was just in fact going on to say, was just in fact going on to say, and I think it encapsulates what my hon. Friend says is that stability at home underpins readiness, at home underpins readiness, retention and morale. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Readiness itself is another core theme of itself is another core theme of this bill. In an increasingly uncertain world with evolving threats, rapid technological technological change and heightened global instability, the measures relating to reserve forces reflect the reality of modern defence.

That experience matters. That flexibility is essential, and that the boundary between regular and reserve service must be more permeable. So by increasing the maximum age of recall, enabling enabling seamless transfers between regular and reserve forces, and granting the Secretary of State power to authorise recall for warlike operations, the Bill strengthens our ability to respond to emerging threats while respecting the voluntary nature of reserve service through appropriate opt outs. The provisions on uncrewed devices are similarly necessary and has been already referenced.

The threat posed by hostile drone activity around defence sites is real and growing. So granting defence personnel the power to use approved equipment to detect, prevent and defeat drone related offences is not an expansion of power for its own sake, but a proportionate response to a changing and growing threat environment. And Madam Deputy Speaker, from the radar pioneers at Bawdsey to the volunteers roasting coffee for combat coffee in Ipswich and Suffolk, our local contribution to the armed forces reminds us that defence is not simply confined to bases or battlefields.

It lives in innovation, in service and community. And it's for those reasons, on behalf of the many serving personnel, veterans and families in Ipswich and across Suffolk, I am proud to support this bill.
19:24
Ian Roome Portrait Ian Roome MP (North Devon, Liberal Democrat)
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Hey, Ian Roome. It is a privilege to be able to speak on the Armed Forces Bill, which will shape the direction of this country's armed forces for the this country's armed forces for the next half decade. The war in Ukraine should be a wake up call to Ukraine should be a wake up call to all of us. And the world has not looked so dangerous since the end of the Cold War. The Strategic Defence Review talks about all of society approach to making Britain more resilient.

This bill makes no firm commitments on troop numbers or combat, but does begin to fix some glaring 21st century gaps in our readiness to defend this country. I have spoken with senior officers who worry we are poorly prepared to fix the recruitment crisis, to stop cyber attacks, or to prevent sabotage here in the UK. Some threats will not arise over the arising because they may be here already, giving our forces the tools and authority they need to protect key infrastructure against drone attacks, as specified in section four of the Bill to organise reserves and recall, and to support the next generation of recruits will be critical.

For me, protecting our armed forces personnel is the closest to my heart, and that is why it is so important that this bill enshrines the Armed Forces covenant into law across government. And why the new Defence Housing Service needs to be a success. More than three quarters of our armed forces live in service accommodation. I have done it myself, but I was still horrified by the findings of the Service Accommodation Report published by the Defence Select Committee in December 24th, which detailed everything from rodent infestations to damp, mould and crumbling facilities.

This bill lays the groundwork for the Ministry of Defence to begin to fix that disaster. I am pleased that the government has agreed with the Liberal Democrat position that the Decent Homes Standard should be applied to all forces accommodation, and this bill gives the Defence Housing Service wide ranging powers to do more. It is the very least we owe to those in uniform. I hope that when the Secretary of State reports on the progress of the Defence Housing Service from the despatch box as specified in schedule one, he will never again have to say, we let our armed forces down so badly.

This bill clarifies the role of the new Armed Forces Commissioner, and give courts martial the authority to support those who may be suffering from mental health disorders. The requirement in clause 17 for commanding officers to report welfare allegations that have not yet been flagged, even outside their own chain of command, is another important addition that, in my opinion, is decades overdue. This bill also introduces measures to bring the powers of the Tri-service Military police up to date. It creates a stronger framework to stamp out sexual assault, stalking and other offences committed in uniform and by civilians subject to service discipline.

I know that the terrible case of artillery gunner John Hayes Lee Beck will have been at the forefront of everyone's mind when this bill was drafted. I hope she and many like her, will be our first thoughts when those clauses are studied at Committee stage. Madam Deputy Speaker, the stakes are suddenly very high. This bill needs to be our best work. We must safeguard everyone of our armed forces personnel more than at any point in the last 30 years.

They will keep this country safe and this house holds them. Our unwavering support in return. Thank you.

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Preet Kaur Gill. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And it is a privilege to speak in this debate. privilege to speak in this debate. For me, this bill is personal. May. My great grandfather fought in France during the First World War, and my grandfather served in Burma during the Second World War, both for the British Indian Army. And my for the British Indian Army. And my uncle served in the Indian Army. Across generations, across continents, the same truth runs continents, the same truth runs through my family history.

Service is not abstract. It is sacrifice. It is long absences, lifelong injuries and families carrying the weight at home. And it reminds us that Britain's story has always been shaped not just on these islands, but by those from across
19:29
Preet Kaur Gill Portrait Preet Kaur Gill MP (Birmingham Edgbaston, Labour )
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the Commonwealth who stood up in our darkest hours. And that is why our darkest hours. And that is why how we treat those who serve, and those who have served matters so deeply. Birmingham is home to deeply. Birmingham is home to nearly 18,000 veterans, and my constituency is proud of its connection to the armed forces community. At the Queen Elizabeth Hospital sits the Royal Centre for Hospital sits the Royal Centre for Defence Medicine, where military and civilian clinicians work side by side, delivering world class care to those injured in service to this country.

And it is a place where duty meets compassion, and where Britain's promise to its armed forces must mean something real. I know my honourable and gallant friend, the Minister for the Armed Forces and my constituency neighbour, who served this country in uniform, understands that reality not from briefing notes but from lived experience. His service and that of members across this House on all sides who have worn the uniform, deserves our respect. Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker, the Armed Forces Covenant is built on a simple principle that those who serve should face no disadvantage and that special consideration is owed where sacrifice has been greatest.

But for too long that promise has not been fully kept. And in the spirit of Ernest Bevin, a strong Britain honours its armed forces not with words but with lasting responsibility. And this bill matters because it extends the covenant across government, not as a slogan, but as a duty. A duty that recognises the physical and mental toll of service, the instability of constant moves, and the reality that too many veterans still struggle with housing, with health care and support long after they leave the forces.

And in Birmingham, organisations like the Royal British Legion, Help the Heroes, Fisher House and countless local volunteers already embody that covenant every single day, supporting families at the Royal Centre for Defence Medicine and providing care when the system falls short. And this bill backs them up with action. Housing is where the failure has been clearest. Too many veterans have been left in poor quality accommodation or pushed into homelessness. The veterans Survey in 2022 found that 1 in 400 veterans reported being homeless or rough, sleeping, or living in a refuge.

That is not just wrong, it is a breach of trust. So I welcome this government's action, investing 9 billion into forces home over the next decade, renewing 2500 existing homes in the West Midlands and building 100,000 homes on surplus defence land, with priority for service families and veterans. That is what listening looks like and that is what governing looks like. Madam Deputy Speaker, this is not just about bricks and mortar, it is about dignity. It is about whether a veteran can get to hospital.

It is about whether a family can stay during treatment and its whether victims of abuse, rape and violence get support, whether service really ends at the barracks gate or whether the country keeps its word. This bill sends a clear message Britain will not turn its back on those who stood up for her. It honours the past, it supports the present, and it strengthens the future, and I am proud to support it. Thank you Steve Barclay.
19:33
Steve Barclay Portrait Rt Hon Steve Barclay MP (North East Cambridgeshire, Conservative)
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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Defence Secretary opened the debate talking about this bill in terms of it taking significant steps to improve service lives. But the reality is that the rhetoric is the reality is that the rhetoric is not matched by the record. And let me start as an example, by taking the significant section of this bill that's devoted to reservists. And there's measures in there that I have no objection to. It allows the recall of those in their early 60s.

It aligns the provision across the three services. It has a a new criteria, a lower threshold to recall based on war like conditions, although it doesn't explain to employers what actually war like will constitute, so that they would know on what basis their members of staff might be called up. But the reality is that under this government, the number of reservists has actually fallen. It was over 32,000, in October, 23. It's under 32,000 in October 24th. And the number of training days has also fallen 1.3 million in 23 four, 1.17 million in 2024 five.

And so the gap between the rhetoric, the armed forces Minister saying that reservists are, quote, critical, absolutely central is what he said. Without them, we cannot generate mass. We cannot meet the plethora of defence tasks. Well, if that is his view, am I right? To my friend? The Member for Tonbridge spoke about the increased risks and the action being taken by the countries. Then why are the number of reservists not increasing significantly now? It might be those on the benches opposite say, well, perhaps our record so far hasn't been great, but don't worry.

The Strategic Defence and Security Review promises a 20% increase in our reservists, so perhaps it will be improved in the future. Well, firstly, that starts from a very low base of 32,000. So a 20% increase is around 6500. Let's put that in context. Even the French Madam Deputy Speaker the French are more than doubling their number of reservists and also from a higher starting point. So they're going from 46,000 to over 100,000 over the next decade. And many other countries have already taken action.

The US has half of its army, over a third of its air force in its guard or reserve units. Scandinavian and Baltic countries have also taken action. Am I right to? My friend talked about the action the Germans were taking. Or we can look at Poland's defence spending to see the actions that other countries are taking. So we've got a very weak target of 20% on a low threshold. But what is worse is the funding commitment to that is almost non-existent.

So the Strategic Defence and Security Review has no hard deadline. And it has the caveat when funds allow, most likely in the 2030s. Now you may say, well, is this my view? Well, it's actually the view of the cross-party public accounts committee. There's ten Labour members on that committee, and it's worth just pointing out what this cross-party committee said just a few months ago in September, when they said the Strategic Defence Review sets out the department's ambition to significantly expand the reserves role, including a 20% increase in numbers from the current 32,000 reserves when funding allows, most likely in the 2030s.

However, the department does not currently have funding or a detailed plan for how it will achieve this expansion. That is a report with a majority of Labour members of Parliament. And let's be honest, it's not just on the issue of reservists that there's no action and little transparency on the funding. We haven't even got the defence investment plan published when it was promised last year. Just to give one other example, and also given what my right hon. Friend said about the funding steps being taken by other countries, let's also just put this in context.

How much money? How much money are we actually talking about? Well, spending on reserve pay last year, 24.5 amounted to £135.3 million, with a further £32 million for bounty payments. This is in a Budget, a department Budget of over £60 billion. So a 20 of course taken. But just to put this in context, a 20% increase in pay and bound to payments would be £33.6 million. So we've got a frontbench that's saying it's critical, it's central, it's urgent.

But we can't

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find low tens of millions until the 2030s. Of course everyone. OK.

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I thank the the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. It's an honour to serve under him on the honour to serve under him on the the Finance Committee, where we look at slightly smaller scale issues around spending. But he issues around spending. But he appears to be questioning the government's political commitment to find the funding that is to find the funding that is necessary for defence. And I just asked him, would he accept that the the down payment on that political will was the very tough political decision that the government took to really take an axe to international development funding? That's something quite close to the hearts of many of the backbenchers of our party.

In order to provide additional funding for the Mod, and that actually, if a Labour government is prepared to take a step of that political courage, he should be in no doubt that as the years go forward, we will find the funding that is essential to deal with the future defence threats

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that we face. One of the most astute commentators on the Finance commentators on the Finance Committee, so I always genuinely listen to what he says. But the the point I'm making, firstly, is the point I'm making, firstly, is the urgency of now to address this and the relative modesty of the sums that we're talking about to that we're talking about to significantly increase the reserves. We're talking tens of millions in a Budget of over 60 billion. And Budget of over 60 billion.

And therefore, if the rhetoric is actually meant that this is central to our security, then why is the action being delayed? And to his point on funding? Yes. I mean, of course, I feel foremost. Chief Secretary, page 140 142 of the Red book deals with the Rochdale, which I think is at 1.1 billion this year. In cash terms, the siedel up 0.4 billion. So there is more money. So from that 1.5 billion, if I was back in the Treasury, I'd be saying, well, why can't you prioritise some tens of millions for this if this is indeed a priority? But if you don't even want to look at the Mod Budget, you can look at the 27 million the civil service spends are diversity and inclusion offices.

Or you could look at some of the other areas of the over £100 million a year. The benches opposite voted for the Chagos Islands as part of the giveaway. So my point is, these are relatively small sums to actually give you scale in terms of your ability to respond at pace. That's why I think Ministers are right to say the reserves are critical. But the point is, their record is one in which they failed to act, and there's no time scale by which they will address those points.

And again, just last month, just last month, the armed forces Minister told journalists that the UK is, quote, rapidly developing plans to prepare the country for war. And he warned, quote, the shadow of war is knocking on your door once more. Well, how is that aligned with the approach of the government in terms of failing to scale the reserves and even allowing modestly their numbers to either stagnate or to fall? And so I have a when it comes to wind up, I have a specific question to ask the armed forces Minister on this regard, and that's with regard to our article three commitment under NATO in terms of our ability to defend the UK.

And can he confirm that for the duration of this Parliament, the current level of of manpower available in our reserves is sufficient to meet article three? It is sufficient to cover all our critical national infrastructure and that in reaching that judgement, he's not double counting reservists such as those who are police officers, those who, for example, are doctors or nurses or work in our NHS, who could be counted as essential in those tasks for what they need to do. As part of our article three requirements.

The second area of this bill, of course. Yeah.

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I do thank him. For for giving me been very generous. I do feel that this is generous. I do feel that this is kind of glass half full this this speech though, because he will know the overall recruitment to the armed forces increased armed forces increased substantially. The latest figures published in December 13% up. People leaving the forces is People leaving the forces is dropping. He will know that. But on to my question. We heard from the frontbench that when he was state frontbench that when he was state for defence, he was arguing inside Cabinet for more money going into defence.

The hon. Member was in the

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Cabinet at the same time. Was he joining those calls? Well, also. Responding to a global pandemic,

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Responding to a global pandemic, when we're responding to the energy inflation from Ukraine as well. But inflation from Ukraine as well. But the point is, what I'm highlighting here is what a Armed Forces Bill under his government in which the Ministers are saying reservists are Ministers are saying reservists are critical. I'm simply pointing to the record and also their future plans. But let me, in the conscious of time, move to housing because of time, move to housing because section three covers housing.

And colleagues will know that. Just last April, The Guardian newspaper reported the Prime Minister telling the Cabinet he wanted to stop outsourcing decisions to quangos. So it will come as no surprise to colleagues across the House that this bill indeed sets up yet another quango. In fact, the last armed forces bill took a year to pass, so this quango won't be in place until more than half the Parliament has already passed on an issue on which Ministers themselves could be making decisions.

So the Prime Minister is telling is coming at one thing. This bill is doing the exact opposite. But more importantly, and the Member for Lewes spoke about how Ministers will oversight this body in terms of the targets. Well, I'm afraid I have some news for him because I struggle to find any targets in there. Indeed, I asked the House of Commons Library what the targets were for this Parliament on housing, and answer came there. None. So there are no targets in terms of that.

And yet this is apparently a huge priority. So perhaps, Madam Deputy Speaker, one can take comfort, at least from who they've put in charge of this housing programme, because they have just appointed a new permanent secretary. And I have the report. Madam Deputy Speaker, from, again, the cross-party public Accounts Committee. But just from last week, I thought I won't go through the archives, I'll just take the report last week in which the chair of the Public Accounts Committee says, and I quote, I have served on the Public Accounts Committee for 12 years.

In all that time, a 98% failure rate in a public sector initiative amounts to the most catastrophic fiasco that I've ever seen on the committee. And indeed, the report itself says the department designed the schemes in a way that exposes it to both poor quality work and fraud. There was virtually no attention from senior officials of the department, as no attention from senior officials, and the department did not know whether the scheme as a whole was or was not working for at least two years.

Seems a surprise, therefore, that just three months ago the defence Ministers appointed the permanent secretary of that department to be the Permanent Secretary of Defence, in charge of their flagship programs, including a housing program. So I asked the Minister, had he read the National Audit Office report when the Permanent Secretary was appointed? Conscious of time, madam, I touched very briefly on two final points. The first is the first is a specific question to the Minister regarding sections 28 and 29. Could the Minister confirm whether any review has been conducted since the general election on army discipline? If so, was it published? If not, why not? And will it be published before Committee stage of the bill? And finally, in his summing up, can he explain how a bill that speaks so much of the importance of the military covenant is consistent with removing protections from our veterans in Northern Ireland? And finally, on the issue of veterans, he announced last May the Operation Valour deployment took six months before it put a job advert out.

They've still not actually, as far as I'm aware, appointed or announced anyone in that post. Can he advise the House why it's taken nine months to appoint someone, and when that point will be that appointment will be made? And finally, where are the incentives in this bill? Where are the incentives for employers to have reservists to recruit them? Where are the tax influencers? Where's the join up across departments? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Speaker.
19:46
Alex Baker Portrait Alex Baker MP (Aldershot, Labour)
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I'm proud to speak in support of the Armed Forces Bill and for the Second Reading, and I do so as the Member of Parliament for Aldershot, the home of the British Army in my constituency. Service is not an abstract concept. It is lived every abstract concept. It is lived every day by families who accept unique pressures on their time, their family life, their careers, their children's education and their health. Our duty in return is clear fairness, respect and practical support that works in real life.

Let me begin with housing. The last government left defence housing an absolute mess with satisfaction levels for service, family accommodation hitting the lowest level on record. So I hugely welcome the creation of the new Defence Housing Service and the direction of travel that this bill sets. My patch will be one of the biggest recipients of these changes, with over 1800 service family homes in Aldershot, which that is, thousands of families who should never have had to put up with the basics being a battle for too long.

I've had conversation after conversation with service personnel and spouses about housing that is not fit for purpose, and a repair system that feels like a maze. People have described the nightmare of even trying to get straightforward repairs done, and the frustration of being treated like the problem rather than the customer. And again and again, families say to me they miss the days when there was an estate manager on site who could fix problems quickly and take responsibility. So I'm delighted to see this bill deliver that.

Restoring a service that is

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accountable, visible and on the side of forces families. I will. I'm very.

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I'm very. Grateful to the hon. Member for Aldershot, and I agree with everything that she said about everything that she said about service, families, accommodation. But the investment in single living accommodation is unlikely to keep accommodation is unlikely to keep up and we've heard already that that is the responsibility of frontline commands that are unlikely to prioritise this. So unlikely to prioritise this. So does she consider that there could be an unintended consequence here, where people want to move out of the block and even enter relationships to be able to move into this much better quality service, families, accommodation.



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I think. That's a fair point from the hon. Gentleman, and I know that on the Defence Select Committee we the Defence Select Committee we will be holding a minister's account on, on single accommodation account on, on single accommodation as much as we are on CFA, because they both need to move and improve very quickly. The second and central point I want to focus on is the covenant. It is absolutely the covenant. It is absolutely right that it is strengthened and put in, put on a clear legal footing.

The covenant is the national nation's promise that those who serve and their families should not be disadvantaged because of service life. If that principle means anything, it must apply consistently across the whole of government and across the whole of the United Kingdom. In the Defence Select Committee, we heard powerful evidence about how inconsistent the covenant can be in practice and how often families feel they are left to fight their corner alone. Let me give one example. From the evidence we heard.

We heard from someone serving who moved from Scotland to the south of England while waiting for an NHS specialist appointment. They've been told their place on the waiting list would transfer under the covenant, but instead they were put to the end of the queue, with the local trust stating that it did not recognise or follow the covenant. This is just one story among hundreds. The committee heard that significant proportions of serving personnel feel disadvantage when trying to access healthcare, education and housing, and this challenge is not limited to serving personnel themselves.

We also heard how service life affects spouses and partners from difficulties transferring professional roles to families, being denied remote working arrangements when posted abroad. Madam Deputy Speaker, the most worrying conclusion that the Defence Committee reached was not simply that disadvantage exists, but that there is no clear, single shared understanding of what the covenant actually means on the ground, either among some providers or within parts of our armed forces community itself. That gap in understanding is exactly where good intentions go to die.

So why I? So while I strongly support putting the covenant into law, I also want to urge the government to go a few steps further. If we are creating a stronger legal covenant, we should take the opportunity to set out a clear, positive public commitment. What the Armed Forces community can expect, what no disadvantage actually means in practice, and what it will be and and what will be delivered consistently across the UK. That should include that should include clear standards, practical guidance for those delivering services, and proper mechanisms for accountability and learning so that best practices, shared and poor practice is tackled quickly because legislation alone will not fix inconsistency.

If the people responsible for implementation do not know what it is being asked of them, or if families cannot see a straightforward route to challenge decisions that plainly ignore the covenant. Lastly, we should set out a clear vision for how the Armed Forces covenant is made real in communities across the UK. And I think this really relates to our commitment to a total society approach to defence, particularly within the Strategic Defence Review. That is why I am campaigning for Aldershot to be officially recognised as an Armed Forces Covenant town.

I want to create a national movement of covenant towns, cities and villages committed to delivering this consistently across local services and organisations. And I'm working with the Royal And I'm working with the Royal British Legion to discuss what this looks. Like. Towns like mine in Aldershot, where civilian and military life are inseparable already. Understand what this means in practice by establishing places like ours as covenants, towns, cities and villages, we can kick start a national effort to ensure respect and fairness for the armed forces community are not just a box ticking exercise, but embedded in the beating heart of our communities in Aldershot and Farnborough, families do not ask for special treatment.

They ask for fair treatment and for a system that recognises the reality of surface life. This bill, with a renewed approach to housing and a stronger covenant, is a major step in the right direction. I welcome it, support it and will keep pushing to make sure its promise is felt by forces family. Not not just in speeches this evening, but in

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their everyday lives. Hey. I intend to put a five minute

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I intend to put a five minute time limit on after the next speaker Dave Doogan. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker,

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, SNP broadly supportive of the contents of this bill. It is an important armed Forces bill. I had to remember another armed forces bill that would have stepped into bill that would have stepped into such a yawning breach, a breach between the armed forces and their capabilities that we have and the armed forces and the capabilities that we need. Further notwithstanding that, clauses five nine, 48, 49, schedule two and elements of schedule three will not have effect in Scotland.

Much of that which is within the bill is long overdue. Legislation which begins to address systemic problems of recruitment and training and the
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Dave Doogan Portrait Dave Doogan MP (Angus and Perthshire Glens, Scottish National Party)
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upkeep of our armed forces, what we expect our armed forces to do, and the conditions in which we expect the conditions in which we expect them to live. I will restrict my them to live. I will restrict my remarks to the important elements of housing, of the elements that of housing, of the elements that are there to address sexual harm and the numbers within our armed forces. Madam Deputy Speaker, I will not labour the point except to say that the provisions for sexual Harm prevention orders and Sexual Risk Orders in clause five are sadly, very much still required.

We must have confidence that our young people who decide to join the armed forces can do so, knowing that while it may or may not prove to be the career or the job for them, they can sign up and they can train and they can qualify and they can serve. And in the knowledge that they will not be predicated upon by either their peers or their superiors. This clause will not directly apply in Scotland, but will, of course, benefit from legislative consent motions in order that a similar effect will be established there to the safety and security of our uniformed personnel.

The bill needs to address the recruitment crisis in our armed forces, so it remains a concern that the government in this bill is seeking to ensure less parliamentary scrutiny over the size of the armed forces and not facilitate more. The most recent targets were set in 2021. Currently, overall, UK armed forces targeted 6% below target at almost 9000 personnel short, a loss of 11,128 personnel across the UK since 2014. In April 14th, there were 11,100 regular armed forces in Scotland in April 2021 that had gone down to 10,440.

In 2014, the UK government committed to increasing the number of Scotland based personnel to 1250. I would be interested if the Minister could advise what that figure is now. The UK has, in effect, a relatively small per capita standing army by European standards, so it was disappointing to see that the SDR merely recommends no further reductions in size, rather of the regular forces. Rather than showing the ambition, the patently required ambition, to grow, to ensure our armed forces are able to maintain the defence of the homeland and resilience and our commitments to NATO and on housing, I support the taking back into public ownership of service, accommodation and the ending of the appalling commercial contracts which have been well documented in countless debates.

In this place. I welcome the government's establishment of the Defence Housing Service. However, in March 25th, the Mod could not confirm via written parliamentary questions how much was going to be spent on maintaining and improving SLA accommodation. The amount ranged from 445 million to 619 million. So I wonder if the Minister can narrow that figure down for the House this evening. Moreover, these figures have not been broken down into to differentiate between Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. As such, there is no confirmation figure as to how much will be spent on SLA accommodation for personnel serving in Scotland.

The House of Commons Library has confirmed in 24 that the Mod managed 47,700 properties, 91.5% of which were in England and Wales, with 1.9 6.6% in Scotland. So how will these much needed and urgent improvements be marshalled across each establishment and across each nation? And with that,

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Madam Deputy Speaker, I wish the Minister every success with this bill. Luke Akehurst.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to pay tribute to those honourable and gallant members from honourable and gallant members from across the House who have brought to the debate personal experience of having served this country in of having served this country in the armed forces. And actually particularly, I would like to thank the right hon. Member for Tonbridge the right hon. Member for Tonbridge for his very insightful speech. He talks about some of the threats we face. And earlier in the debate, it was mentioned that there is no one here from the Reform Party.

I think that part of their apparent lack of interest in defence matters could be because whereas most of us on either side of the House have sleepless nights worrying about the threat to the United Kingdom and
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Luke Akehurst Portrait Luke Akehurst MP (North Durham, Labour)
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its allies from Russia, they do not actually accept that that threat exists. They are on a spectrum from exists. They are on a spectrum from thinking it's all Ukraine's fault, that there is ever the subject of that there is ever the subject of three different to, to, to, to, to invasions and and the threat of a third through to their Welsh leader third through to their Welsh leader actually accepting money from the from the people who's, who's whose from the people who's, who's whose military threat.

We are trying to counter moving moving on though, I, I want to say that for many families across my North Durham constituency, the contract between the state and the brave men and women who serve in our armed forces is a key issue. They have sent me here to focus on, because one in every ten households I speak to in North Durham has a has a veteran or serving member of the armed forces in it. When I turn up at people's doorsteps to campaign, I'm often playing spot the the different cap badge that they've got as some kind of memento inside the door, and it helps one to if I manage to recognise it, it helps one to strike up a conversation.

There are all people who have served in all three services and many different units, but there's a particularly strong connection in North Durham with the Durham Light Infantry, the DLI or faithful Durham's and its successor regiments following amalgamation, and I pay particular tribute to the to to the Durham Light Infantry Association for their role in the constituency. For my constituents, proper housing, social care, justice and other support for veterans is not just a pledge. It's a reality of how they and their loved ones get on with life.

So since I've been elected, I've tried to use this my my, my, my role in this place as a platform to stand up for our armed forces and our veterans and call for greater investment in defending our country in an increasingly turbulent world. The importance of the invaluable efforts of our servicemen and women is clearer than it has been at any time since the end of the Cold War, so I'm proud that we have a Labour government, which through this bill, is showing that we on the side of our armed forces.

I was elected on a manifesto that promised to renew the nation's contract with those who serve through better housing services and protections for our forces and their families, and this bill will do exactly that as well, of course, as renewing a five year basis. The actual the actual existence of standing armed forces tradition that's gone on since 1688, and one which I presume people will be unsurprised that I'm happy for this country to have standing armed forces. And I hope that they, as other people in the chamber, have said that they will grow and that we will attain the kind of mass that we need to deal with the threats that we face.

The time that I have to give this speech is is short. And I want to to say that today's bill forms a key part of a wider picture of a Labour government delivering on the defence of this nation. I spoke about the tough political choices we were making to attain the the funding that's needed. Landmark deals have also been secured to protect British jobs, help keep the world safer from hostile actors from the 8 billion deal with Turkey on Eurofighter, which I spoke about in Westminster Hall late last year, to the selection of the UK's type 26 frigates by Norway.

And incidentally, I consider Norway one of our key strategic partners in defending the North Atlantic bastion. And we and and as parliamentarians, we all have a duty to deliver a renewed covenant with armed forces for the brave men and women in North Durham who have been willing to put their lives on the line throughout history, and even now for the good of the rest, of for the good of the rest of their constituents, up and down the country for the current generation in active service, safeguarding the nation from threats wherever they come from, from the entire population, for the entire population who rightly expect that their government will do all it can to keep them safe from any risk of conflict and bloodshed.



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Josh Babarinde Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm going to use this debate to highlight an injustice debate to highlight an injustice that strikes at the very heart of the armed forces covenant and injustice suffered by a legendary Eastbourne Staff Sergeant Pauline Cole. Pauline served our country Cole. Pauline served our country during the Aden Emergency in 1967, and she wrote about her experiences and she wrote about her experiences in her book, Army Girl The Untold Truth. She developed a skin damage and post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of her military service.

After tribunals rightfully awarded her compensation for these lifelong conditions, she should have been able to live with greater financial security in her retirement. Instead, the opposite happened because military compensation is treated as income when calculating Pension Credit. Most of what Pauline won at tribunal was effectively taken away by the Department for Work and Pensions. Her pension credit fell from £77 a week to just £11 a week. Pauline was financially punished for being injured in the service of
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Josh Babarinde Portrait Josh Babarinde MP (Eastbourne, Liberal Democrat)
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her country. And this is not just Pauline's story. The Royal British Pauline's story. The Royal British Legion estimates that over 50,000 war disablement pensioners of war disablement pensioners of retirement age face this same perverse outcome, and what makes it even worse, and even more outrageous, is that civil compensation is not treated as compensation is not treated as income for Pension credit. Only military compensation is penalised in this way. And this is also outrageous. In light of the fact that LGBT+ veterans receiving compensation following the Atherton review were explicitly and very rightly told that their payments would not affect their benefits.

So we've got to ask why are injured veterans under the war pension scheme treated differently? Why does our system force our poorest veterans to use compensation that's awarded for pain, injury and lost quality of life to cover core basic living costs? Now, I was proud to use my first ever Prime Minister's question in this place to raise this injustice at the highest level, and I'm proud to leverage a meeting with the pensions Minister to discuss this further. And there were many, many warm words, but no action.

Now, I promised Pauline that I would do my very best to fight this injustice on her behalf, but with huge sadness, Pauline died on the 30th of November last year without seeing the justice that she was so determined to secure. And so, at her funeral earlier this month, I restated my promise to fight tooth and nail to her sons, Les and Simon Haffenden, and all her loved ones gathered there that I would continue this fight for Pauline and veterans like her.

And so to that end, this week marks my tabling of the Armed Forces Compensation Scheme and War Pension Scheme Report. Bill Pauline's law as a step towards correcting this injustice permanently. But as this government's Armed Forces Bill progresses through Parliament, the Minister has an incredible opportunity, in my view, a duty to act now on his own piece of legislation to correct this gross injustice. And so I would urge the government at later stages of the legislative process with respect to this bill, to amend it to ensure that no Veterans Pension Credit or indeed any benefit is reduced because they received compensation for serving their country.

And I would love to work cross-party on this. I know the Member for Leyton and Wanstead is passionate about this issue. The Member for Slough, the Member for Horsham and many others. Indeed, it was mentioned by our spokesperson, the Member for Lewes. We owe our veterans nothing less than the dignity, security and fairness that they were promised when they signed up to serve. Pauline deserved better. Our

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veterans deserve better and this House must do better. Rachael Taylor.

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Rachael Taylor. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Bedworth in my constituency hosts the largest armistice parade in Britain. It's truly the town that never forgets, and I want to pay never forgets, and I want to pay tribute today to all the veterans across North Warwickshire and Bedworth, especially those who lost
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Rachel Taylor Portrait Rachel Taylor MP (North Warwickshire and Bedworth, Labour)
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Bedworth, especially those who lost their lives in Afghanistan, including Sergeant Simon Valentine. When I speak to people across my constituency, they tell me that they're proud of their armed forces. Just last week, I met a constituent visiting parliament who proudly told me about his time serving in the RAF at a time of growing international turbulence. We need more people who look to our armed forces with national pride and who can see a future for themselves in our armed forces. But for too long, those opportunities were undermined by years of under-investment by the party opposite.

In 1996, the Conservative Party privatised military housing. This decision cost taxpayers billions and left too many service personnel and their families living in substandard conditions. Between 2018 and 2023, military families lodged almost 53,000 complaints about their housing. By 2023, satisfaction with service family accommodation had fallen to the lowest level on record, with only 1 in 5 service personnel satisfied with repairs and maintenance carried out, this Labour government has started to turn the tide. We've brought 36,000 forces family homes back into public ownership, saving over 200 million a year in rent payments, and these savings are already being invested into fixing and improving military housing.

But we need to do so much more. In the run up to the election in 2024, we promised to extend the Armed Forces covenant to every area of government. Through this bill, we are delivering on that promise. The Armed Forces Covenant promises to deliver fairness for serving personnel, veterans, families and the bereaved. And for the first time, this government will extend that covenant across social care, employment support under the public services, placing a legal duty on them to consider the unique circumstances faced by forces, personnel and their families.

It will deliver better support for tens of thousands of service personnel and veterans across the country. And as part of improving that help, I'm proud to have supported OP valour, extending more support for veterans and their families in my constituency of North Warwickshire and Bedworth, all those who serve our country must be able to do so with dignity and respect. They deserve confidence in a service justice system that stands with them, one that supports victims and delivers justice.

This is why the government is ensuring the service justice system can better protect those who experience the most serious offences. It will give the military police enhanced powers to investigate wrongdoing, provide service courts with stronger tools to hold perpetrators to account and, crucially, improve the experience of victims as they navigate the justice process. I'm proud to stand behind this government's mission to halve violence against women and girls. This bill will help us in that mission because it includes a comprehensive set of measures to protect those at risk of violent behaviour, domestic abuse, stalking and sexual abuse and harassment.

But I do want to see this legislation protecting our armed forces in their role combating terrorism at home and abroad. The first duty of any government is to keep its citizens safe. Today, the threats we face are growing closer and closer to home. We've seen Russia's illegal and brutal invasion of Ukraine. We've seen the rules based international order fracture and strain. In response, we have to strengthen our armed forces and ensure that we are prepared for an era of ever increasing threat.

Finally, we have a government standing side by side with our armed forces, with real, tangible measures, backing our armed forces, supporting their families, treating them with dignity and respect, giving them choices, and ensuring that our

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nation's security is fit for the future. Here. Here Jim Shannon. You, Madam Deputy.

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You, Madam Deputy. Speaker, a real pleasure to speak in this. And can I thank the Minister and government for all Minister and government for all they do? I think this bill before us has lots and lots of good things us has lots and lots of good things that we should be encouraged to to support the Minister on. I also very pleased to see the hon. Member very pleased to see the hon. Member in his place. I look forward to his comments at the end and his contribution to declare an interest.

Madam Deputy Speaker. As a member of the former member of Ulster Defence Regiment for three years and for the Territorial Army for the Royal Artillery for 11.5 years. As a former serviceman, I know very well the impact of being well funded because that means being well supported emotionally and practically, and never more so than this week when our brave troops have been discharged as they have
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Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)
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been. It's imperative that this House refutes and repudiates the smear on the brave young men and smear on the brave young men and women who gave their all, I think, and I intervention. I said again, for the record, Madam Deputy Speaker, I think of Corporal Channing Day from the third Medical Regiment killed in Afghanistan on Wednesday, the fourth 24th of Wednesday, the fourth 24th of October, 2012, while on patrol. In the Nahr e Saraj district of the Nahr e Saraj district of Helmand province.

He was a 25 year old girl, my constituent, who paid the ultimate sacrifice and gave her life while helping others. She was not somewhere in the background. To quote President Trump, she was on the front line and her mum and dad wrote me last night graver. Still today, she and others in the armed forces were the best in the world, and their brothers and sisters in arms continue to uphold their legacy and sacrifice. And the motto that she served on the Medical Corps. She was faithful in adversity.

So we need to be faithful in adversity for her and for all those other ones who have served as well. The bill before us today reminds of our duty to be faithful to them, and therefore I support the Bill. I work very closely with the Veterans chaplain for my local Ards and North Down Borough Council, Alderman Trevor Commons. He has over the years highlighted this party and areas in the application of this duty. It is my desire, and indeed that of the Royal British Legion and help for heroes, that this disparity is stamped out and that the application of obligations is accepted and implemented UK wide.

So my ask of the Minister will be in my next comment. As we all know, treatment of our armed forces in Northern Ireland greatly varies across the province. This is demonstrated in the abuse received by British Legion supporters at Tescos in Newry just last year. Yet little wonder veterans feel unsupported in areas when local charity fund raisers are treated in this manner. There's a real requirement for this legislation to apply foundationally across the United Kingdom and has helped for here.

This bill has the potential to strengthen legal protections where public bodies fail to properly consider the needs of the armed Forces community in policy, funding and service decisions. Improved consistency and fairness across the United Kingdom. That's my answer to the Minister. So the things that are happening in Northern Ireland when they shouldn't be happening, recognition should be for all. And to reinforce accountability and delivery of both national and local levels. It's our job within this building. Ensure it does just that.

I'm aware that our Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner, David Johnson, at the site of state referred to earlier on, is working on models to improve Northern Ireland treatment of veterans and governmental level, acknowledging the unique position that Northern Ireland paints herself in and this bill will aid him. I believe, in trying to ensure every governmental department abides by our obligations from this House and not their own personal desires. It also leads me to ask the Minister to outline whether this bill would ensure the Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner is on equal footing, as the rest of the United Kingdom commissions, as currently it is a non-statutory appointment, which means that the post lacks the formal legal powers and duties of statutory commissioners and other parts of the United Kingdom may possess really important ministry.

Don't mind me asking that question directly to have. If I can have that answer, please. I will further support help for heroes and the three R's of the bill. The duty should apply to all relevant public bodies for consistency, accountability, legislation and subsequent regulations to ensure the duty applies across the full delivery system of all four nations. Secondly, statutory guidance must be clear and enforceable by clearly setting out expectations, responsibilities and minimum standards underpinned by formal monitoring and reporting arrangements, and veterans should have clear risk to redress with duty has not met and Parliament should be able to scrutinise delivery effectively.

A robust evidence and accountability framework is essential. I concluded with this, Madam Chair, time has beat me. But what time do you remember just how much we have to be thankful for our armed forces? Who are the best in the world, whose training, courage and fortitude is the stuff of legends and who deserve this? Certainly a destination, this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will do right by them and their families whilst they serve. And then when they retire, no matter where they retire to.

Thank you, Amanda Martin.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Portsmouth North knows the value of service. We are a proud naval city, home to serving personnel, home to serving personnel, reservists, veterans and their families, and so many charities and individuals who support them. We individuals who support them. We are a city whose identity is inseparable from the Royal Navy. More than 9000 veterans of all More than 9000 veterans of all services live in Portsmouth. Thousands more serve at His Majesty's Royal Naval Base, Portsmouth, and many families in my constituency move where duty sends them, putting down roots again and again in service of this nation.

That is why the Armed Forces Bill matters so deeply to Portsmouth North. The bill renews the nation's contract with those who serve. It delivers better homes, stronger protections, fairer support for veterans and serving personnel, and greater readiness at a time of global threat. Madam Deputy Speaker, let me start with housing, because for far too long, forces families were badly let down under the Conservatives satisfaction with service, family accommodation collapsed to record lows, families with damp mould and unsafe conditions. This bill draws a clear line under that failure.

Indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am proud to have seen this work has already begun under this government, with real change seen in houses in areas like Hilsea. And I thank the Minister and the Secretary of State on the front bench for visiting and seeing this change. But we are going to do more by establishing a publicly owned defence housing service and backing it with a fully costed, £9 million defence House strategy. Change under Labour is real. This investment will directly improve the service family accommodation in Portsmouth and provide stable retention and quality of life for those who serve and live in almost 700 local homes.

This is also possible only because we ended the disastrous privatisation of military housing and brought 36,000 forces family homes back into public ownership, saving £200 million a year money. We are now reinvesting for our service personnel. Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm so very proud that this bill also delivers on a solemn promise we made at the general election for the first time, the Armed Forces Covenant. We extended across every part of government, central government, local authorities and public bodies will be legally required to consider the unique circumstances of service life for Portsmouth North, where thousands of veterans and service personnel rely on local healthcare, housing, employment and support.

This will end the postcode lottery and deliver fairness for those who are serving and for those who have already given up so much. And I would like to ask the Minister, in his summing up, to tell me how clear statutory guidance with practical examples will support consistent delivery on the ground and give confidence to those responsible for making the covenant work today. And I'd also like to agree with my hon. Friend from Aldershot and join her campaign in making Portsmouth the National Covenant City alongside Aldershot Covenant Town.

Madam Deputy Speaker, those who serve our country must be able to do so with dignity and respect. This bill strengthens the service justice system, improve support for victims and ensures serious offences are dealt with swiftly and properly. It also delivers new protections against sexual violence, domestic abuse, stalking and harassment. In line with our mission to halve violence against women and girls, supporting victims and raising standards does
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Amanda Martin Portrait Amanda Martin MP (Portsmouth North, Labour)
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not weaken our armed forces. It strengthens them. In conclusion, strengthens them. In conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, this bill also exposes a clear divide between those who back our armed forces and those who prefer slogans to substance. The Tories talk on tough, tough on defence, but their record is one of abysmal failure. 14 years is one of abysmal failure. 14 years in government left morale at record lows, forces, housing and a shameful state and our services shameful state and our services decimated and the no detriment of service unrecognised, unknown for many, invisible.

But there is another group I must mention reform. Reform members speak loudly outside this chamber about patriotism and respect for the armed forces. Yet when this House debates housing, welfare and legal protection for those who serve and have served, they are conspicuous by their absence on debates, marking DJ D-Day, V-J day and moments of enormous significance to my naval city veterans across the country.

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Reform members are shamefully not here. My hon. Friend give way. I thank

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My hon. Friend give way. I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. And does she agree with me that given does she agree with me that given the Reform Party are in control of over ten county councils up and down this country, who will be responsible for implementing that armed forces covenant in areas like education and social welfare? That their inability to show up today is

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shameful. Amanda Martin. Absolutely. Which is why I ask the Minister how we can ensure that the Minister how we can ensure that it is statutory across all of our local authorities. Madam Deputy Speaker, patriotism is not a slogan Speaker, patriotism is not a slogan or a social media post. It is showing up. It is voting for better homes for forces families. It is backing the armed Forces covenant, backing the armed Forces covenant, it strengthening protections for those who serve. It's listening and supporting individual constituents supporting individual constituents as an MP and collectively as a government.

Help for heroes. The Royal Navy and Royal Marines Charity and the Naval Children's Charity have all welcomed the direction of this bill and stand ready to support its implementation so that lived experience continues to shape delivery. This is a bill for homes fit for heroes, for fairness, for thousands of veterans in Portsmouth and for those serving. And Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm proud to say that there are two special naval personnel in the gallery today. My son and his girlfriend. He and I want to give them and all others who serve and have served dignity, respect, support and readiness and an increasingly dangerous world.

Since being elected, I've stood up proudly for my Armed Forces community, alongside a city that has always stood for armed forces. And today, this bill ensures government will do the same.
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Vikki Slade Portrait Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)
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Vikki Slade. and I'm absolutely honoured to follow my hon. Friend from Portsmouth North, and I'm pleased to see this Bill seek to fill the to see this Bill seek to fill the gaps in the current Armed Forces Covenant, and I should declare a personal interest as my husband, Paul, is a Royal Navy veteran. My daughter Abby is a current Army reservist. I'm a member of the Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme, and my husband is the armed forces champion at Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole Council.

My husband's last day of service was the day before we married, denying me, of course, those amazing wedding photographs. But primarily the reason that he decided to come out before we married was because at that time, support for families was weak. He told me he didn't want to be receiving a Dear John letter or miss the birth of his children. The Armed Forces covenant was supposed to fix that, but I've heard from service families that it's not yet the case.

One of the clearest examples of where families feel let down is in education. And although our schools are required to prioritise the children of military personnel in their admissions, and they do, so many children with special educational needs fall through the net. The process is supposed to take a matter of months, as we know, but often takes closer to a year, and many children find themselves moved from one local authority to another partway through that system, needing to repeat assessments and lengthening delays.

And we know that specialist school places are as rare as unicorn manure, and I've heard many families feel that they can't move with their serving member, as they can't afford to risk that change. So I hope that the Minister will work carefully alongside the Department for

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education on this. Of course. Anyway. I just wanted to really indicate that what she's saying there is so that what she's saying there is so important, I think, more important than party politics. It fundamentally has to be the case fundamentally has to be the case that as we work to fix the system, we bear in mind the unique circumstances of those who serve our country. And I just wanted to our country. And I just wanted to thank her for for raising that point today, because it's a really important Vikki Slade.



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I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. I've met service children as I've gone around my schools, and I always pay special attention to to the service that they're giving through the, the, their parents being away. But it isn't just an education. We know that dentistry is in crisis, and Dorset has often been mentioned as a dental desert. And while serving, personnel can access excellent GP and dental services on their bases, it doesn't extend to the spouses and children.

Most NHS dentists are now closed to new patients in my area, so families arriving in the county face the prospect of losing their dentist. So I'd like to ask the Minister if he's considering extending service dentists to support the wider armed forces family, or how he will work with the Department of Health to amend NHS contracts. Because dentists are private businesses within the system and therefore they're not within the scope, as I understand it, of the armed Forces covenant. We must ensure these children are not disadvantaged by regular moves around the country.

And that brings me to the quality of accommodation, which has a significant effect on wellbeing too. I welcome the Housing Defence, the Defence Housing Service and the commitment to upgrade 90% of the military family, a family homes. But when we turn to single person and training facilities, the problems of housing is immense. Through my involvement with the APS, I visited numerous establishments Royal Navy, Royal Marine and Army and I'm constantly shocked by the experience shared with us of no running water, cold showers and toilets that don't flush.

Now, I recognise that our incredible military will be living in far more basic circumstances when on manoeuvres, but it simply isn't acceptable for their day to day lives. So what plans does he have for the upgrade of single persons accommodation and training establishments which are not covered? I am concerned that if it comes from individual budgets, commanding officers cannot be expected to choose between equipment to keep our military safe and safe. Military accommodation. Another aspect of the bill that raises interesting questions is the extension of the special reserve.

And I know that some members of the armed forces that previously served will be more than happy to go back and do their bit, but there are some that don't feel that way, and one resident told me that he believes he's done his fair share and does not see why he should be called back up until the age of 65. I know my own husband would be very happy to go back, although I suspect from his recent attempts to get fit, he's very unlikely to reach the threshold.

So could the Minister outline what assessment his department has done on how many of these cohort will be physically able to serve, and what else they might be able to do to serve their could.

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I could I recommend our armed forces Minister to regularly run forces Minister to regularly run Park run with your husband may get him up to some level of fitness

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him up to some level of fitness that goes somewhere near his, but it won't quite won't quite achieve that. I thank my hon. Friend for that

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I thank my hon. Friend for that comment. And given that I've just discovered that the Armed Forces minister's children live in my constituency, I may well take him up on that offer. So, taking it to a more sober point, against this backdrop, it's important to remember why this all matters. And the Armed Forces Minister knows the person I'm about to speak about. In light of the disgraceful comments of President Trump last week, I want to put on record my thanks to all those who choose to serve, to the families whose lives are turned upside down, and in particular to those like my constituent, Toby Guttridge, a Royal Marine and member of the Special Forces from Poole who survived a catastrophic injury in Afghanistan, leaving him paralysed from the neck down despite being permanently reliant on a ventilator.

He has gone on to achieve academic qualifications, including a first class honours degree from Bournemouth University, forming a charity called bravery and inspiring others through his public speaking. For anyone in doubt about the sacrifices our troops make and their immense bravery, can I recommend his book never Will I die, which I now understand is set to be turned into a film about his life and service. His story is a reminder of the resilience at the heart of our Armed Forces community, and underlines why we must all ensure the facilities, care and equipment that support our service personnel match their dedication and I look forward to supporting the

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government as they progress this bill and seeking ways to improve it wherever we can. Yeah.

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Yeah. Doctor Scott Arthur. Yeah. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And I have to honestly say that it And I have to honestly say that it is a privilege to speak in support of this bill today. It does not just renew the legal basis for our just renew the legal basis for our armed forces. It renews our nation's contract with those who defend it. In my constituency of defend it. In my constituency of Edinburgh South West, our armed forces are our neighbours and our friends from the families who live in the Dreghorn military estate to
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Scott Arthur Portrait Dr Scott Arthur MP (Edinburgh South West, Labour)
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those based in Colleton and Dreghorn Barracks. We see them daily around the barracks and also daily around the barracks and also at our schools, picking up their kids in the supermarket, buying our food and when the weather's bad food and when the weather's bad Madam Deputy Speaker they are delivering groceries to the older people in the community. Today, this Labour government is telling this Labour government is telling them that we have your back. For too long, the standard of military housing, as we have heard, has been housing, as we have heard, has been a national scandal.

We cannot expect people who would gladly risk their lives to protect this country, to live in accommodation which is damp, mouldy or cold. That is why I am incredibly proud to welcome our 9 billion military housing strategy. This is the biggest settlement in a generation, which will lead to the renewal of more than 3000 military homes in Scotland alone. Most importantly from my constituency, up to 415 homes in Edinburgh South West could benefit, hopefully will benefit from this landmark investment. This is not just about bricks and mortar, it is about dignity.

And it is backed by action on household budgets too. With over 10,000 military personnel in Scotland getting the biggest ever pay uplift in two decades, we are putting money in their pockets and a decent roof over their heads. Now I want to talk about veterans of whom there are tens of thousands in Scotland, and Armed Forces Covenant has for too long been a best effort rather than a guarantee. I want to join others in paying tribute to many people across the UK who were concerned about the comments from the American president last week.

Many people in my constituency got in touch to say that they were offended. They will remember back in 2009 when three rifles deployed to Afghanistan as part of a 1400 strong battlegroup. They returned. When they returned to Colinton, 30 had lost their life, the biggest ever loss of life in a single battlegroup in 60 years. Thousands of people lined the streets as they marched from the barracks down to Colinton Parish Church. We have heard calls for a Aldershot to be made a covenant town.

Portsmouth North made a covenant city. I do think Colinton should be a covenant village just just for their support of our forces. Not just then, but always. At the general election, we promised to extend the covenant to every area of government in. This bill delivers on that promise. For the first time, this Labour government is extending the Covenant Legal Duty across all areas of central government, and we are working with devolved governments and local authorities to make it there, make it happen there too.

This means that social care, employment support and other public services will be legally required to consider the unique circumstances faced by forces, personnel and their families, particularly in schools. Unfortunately, whilst the Labour government uses the force of law to protect our veterans in Scotland, there is concern that in Holyrood the SNP government has been cutting dedicated veterans support since 2023 and you only have to look at NHS Lothian, where veterans first point support for veterans has been cut, and I know many people are concerned about that, including, I have to say, members of the Scottish Government's Cabinet who have discussed it with us.

It feels like they are managing decline in scaling back support, but hopefully we will set the example for them here today. The investments from the UK government come at a time when the stakes could not be higher. We face the most serious set of geopolitical threats for at least a generation, and Scotland will be a key part on the home front in the largest sustained increase in defence spending since the Cold War. And I have to say, when I speak to the members of armed forces in Edinburgh South West A, they look at what is happening in the geopolitical situation with tremendous professionalism.

So by fixing the housing and boosting pay, we are enshrining the covenant in law, and we are ensuring that people at the heart of our defence are ready for the challenges ahead.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Jim Allister. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I begin by associating myself with the remarks of several hon. Members the remarks of several hon. Members in repudiating the outrageous slur upon our armed forces by the president of the United States in respect of service in Afghanistan. Our our our soldiers were not shirkers. They were heroes. And one of them, one of them was young Private Philip Gillespie from Galgorm in my constituency, who for
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Jim Allister Portrait Jim Allister KC MP (North Antrim, Traditional Unionist Voice)
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his service lost a leg and is permanently disabled as a result. permanently disabled as a result. And he typifies many who gave so And he typifies many who gave so much in that regard. I want to make most of my remarks relating to the Armed Forces covenant. I've heard it said more than once in this debate that the Labour Party's debate that the Labour Party's manifesto pledged that the Armed Forces Covenant would be applied to every area of government.

Good pledge. Sadly, this bill does not deliver it, because within this bill there is a notable and deliberate exception, and it is the 11 local councils in Northern Ireland. In clause two, we have set forth what a local authority means in relation to England county councils, district councils, boroughs, etc. etc. Regional Wales. Councillor. County. County borough Scotland, the council constituted under the Local Government Act, etc. Northern Ireland in relation to Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, where are the 11 district councils of Northern Ireland? Why are they excluded from the ambit of this Bill? Why is the Armed Forces Covenant not to be applied to them? Is it because some of those councils, unhappily, are dominated by Sinn Fein? Is the government running scared of offending Sinn Fein by the armed forces covenant? Remembering, of course, that Sinn Fein is the party of the IRA? Those that took out so many of our gallant citizens and servicemen in

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Northern Ireland. Thank you. Thank you for giving me, far be it for me to speak in me, far be it for me to speak in the Minister's place. But surely he has answered his own question in forcing local authorities that are controlled by Sinn Fein to give due regard to veterans, are we not giving away the identity of those giving away the identity of those veterans to Sinn Fein controlled councils, who may pass them on to unsavoury friends? I'm sorry.

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unsavoury friends? I'm sorry. Not all councils, happily are controlled by Sinn Fein. There are 11 councils, many of which are but to at the behest, maybe at the behest through the First Minister's office, I don't know, but maybe at the behest the councils have been excluded. So I'm disappointed that the government's own manifesto has been disapplied when it comes to Northern Ireland, where the covenant has been abysmally implemented, I turn to the Armed Forces Covenant Annual report of 2025.

I go to any page on it almost. I read healthcare services for veterans in England, in Wales, in Scotland, nothing for Northern Ireland. I go to education service Pupil Premium in England. Welsh Government Education service for children. Nothing for Northern Ireland. I go to homelessness, a section on homelessness in Wales, in Scotland, nothing in Northern Ireland. Resettlement in Scotland. All of that is there. Underscoring that the Armed Forces Covenant has not been adequately applied in my part of the United Kingdom, and now the government is exempting the whole level of local government from the implementation of the covenant.

That is not just disturbing, it is quite appalling. Why shouldn't a veteran who lives in my constituency have the same protections, the same opportunities, the same guarantees? As a veteran who lives in the constituency of any member from Great Britain, there can be no justification for that. And yet that is the import of this bill, and that is something which I trust the government will make good, that the default in it, and will make sure that that loophole is closed.

I also have to say this we're in a bizarre situation in Northern Ireland because of the imposition of EU regulations, including those on the ozone depleting substances, which means, believe it or not, the Chinook helicopters, Dakotas, Wilmot Merlins, many more. They might land in Northern Ireland, but they cannot be based in Northern Ireland because it offends and obscure EU law. That's what happens when you hand away the sovereignty over part of your territory and say to the Secretary of State, it's time that was rectified as well.

And maybe that's why our military presence is fast, diminished. Recent answer to him, which showed there were five Royal Navy personnel stationed in Northern Ireland, 70 RAF and only 1230 Army. Why? We were meant to go back to peacetime levels under the Belfast Agreement. But we have not. Is is this government running down military presence in Northern Ireland?
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Jayne Kirkham Portrait Jayne Kirkham MP (Truro and Falmouth, Labour )
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Jayne Kirkham. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> As a backbench MP, I understand it's rare to see a ten minute bill progress all the way into law. That's why I was so pleased when I learned the Armed Forces Bill has incorporated the proposal from my bill to bring the RFA Royal Fleet Auxiliary personnel within the remit of the new Armed Forces Commissioner. When the act received Royal assent at the end of last year, it created, for the first time, an independent statutory voice for surface personnel reporting directly to Parliament.

However, the RFA didn't get that protection despite the vital role its crews play in supporting our armed forces. Falmouth is home to the Torbay class RFA ships, and I've spent time with their crews in Falmouth Docks. RFA personnel are not armed combatants, but they are deployed in war zones and they face danger and there is no doubt they are absolutely vital to the UK's defence, security and maritime power. They've been deployed all over the world on anti-narcotics missions following earthquakes to provide support during the Ebola crisis, and recently in operations, apprehending shadow vessels and protecting our subsea cables.

But crews also face challenging conditions, an ageing fleet and staff shortages and personnel regularly have long sea tours, with less time off per day worked than any other sector. This government has been working with the RFA and their unions closely on improving terms and conditions, and I hope that will be concluded speedily. In my bill I set out, I will.

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Could I was the Minister that oversaw Operation Grip Rock when RFA Argus was deployed to Freetown RFA Argus was deployed to Freetown as part of Britain's relief effort to fight Ebola in Sierra Leone. Can I just endorse everything she said I just endorse everything she said and pay a personal tribute as the Minister overseeing it to the wonderful work that the RFA did to

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wonderful work that the RFA did to help combat that wicked virus? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. And thank you. I remember I remember it sailing from remember I remember it sailing from Falmouth and coming back. Clause 30 of the Armed Forces bill now delivers what I argued for. It formally brings RFA personnel within the scope of the armed forces commissioner. But the reform doesn't change the RFA legal status or distinct identity. That's very important. But clause 30 does finally give the men and women who sustain our Royal Navy and Marines an independent route to raise concerns about bullying, unsafe conditions, discrimination or misconduct.

And schedule four sets out in detail the new powers and responsibility of the Commissioner in relation to the RFA promoting welfare, improving public understanding of their challenges and investigating systemic issues such as staffing, crew fatigue and safety. It also gives the Commissioner the authority to enter RFA premises, request evidence and issue recommendations that the Secretary of State has to consider. It's worthy of the contribution the RFA makes, and I'm glad to have helped in a tiny way. Secure it. The contract with those who serve shouldn't end at the gates of a naval base or the stern of an auxiliary ship.

RFA personnel serve this country with dedication, often without recognition, and it's right that our policy reflects their contribution. I welcome wider reforms in the Armed Forces Bill, which will benefit thousands of service personnel, plus more than 30,000 veterans across Cornwall, many of those in Truro and Falmouth. The bill extends the covenant across all levels of government, so no one falls through the gaps and it strengthens the service justice system to ensure fair treatment and proper accountability. And that publicly owned Defence Housing Service, which will benefit 12,334 homes in the South West, many in my constituency.

The provisions in the bill are accompanied by initiatives like Operation Valour, which is fantastic, and I have a bid in my constituency to become a hub. We have the second highest number of veterans in Cornwall of any local authority area, so we believe it would make a lot of sense to have that provision there. The hon. Member for Tonbridge made a point earlier about young people, and the government announced an Armed forces gap year plan over Christmas to give Britain's young people under 21 a taste of the extraordinary skills and training on offer across the Army, Royal Navy and RAF.

It's a really important scheme and I had very little experience of the military before I met my ex-husband. Everybody knows about the potential risks, but there are huge positives and opportunities that many aren't aware of. You can do all sorts of things in the forces. You can learn to be a pilot, a medic, an engineer, or even a champion snowboarder, and you gain connections which will last a lifetime. My Navy friends are like family to my son, and I consider myself very lucky to have been part of the forces family.

Cornwall has a proud military heritage. Many families have someone who served or are still serving. They make extraordinary sacrifices to keep this country safe and they deserve safe homes, fair treatment and a system that understands the unique demands of military life. I am pleased that the RFA are included in this bill, and I'm pleased that I have had a tiny part in shaping it. And I'm also pleased that those who keep our armed forces moving around will now be properly recognised and protected.

As a government. We did promise to renew the nation's contract with those who serve, and

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we are delivering on that. Year. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker,

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I generally welcome this bill, and as an instructor, I welcome the and as an instructor, I welcome the new unified organisation for cadet forces, which is is very welcome. forces, which is is very welcome. Somerset has a higher than average population or proportion of veterans and armed forces,
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Gideon Amos Portrait Gideon Amos MP (Taunton and Wellington, Liberal Democrat)
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veterans and armed forces, community and Taunton and Wellington itself as well. And one thing we have in Taunton, Wellington at Norton Manor Camp, are 17 trees that were planted to represent the Royal Marines from 40 Commando who lost their lives in Afghanistan. And I just want to add to the comments earlier that the fact that President Trump was so dismissive of that service and those lives is completely

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contemptible, contemptible, and I will certainly do so. I'm very, very grateful. To. The hon. Member for giving way. It seems to have been indicated a couple of times during this debate that President Trump has apologised. that President Trump has apologised. As far as I can tell, he has not apologised at any point for his disgraceful comments. And would he disgraceful comments. And would he like to join with me in encouraging him from this place to do so publicly and quickly, to encourage publicly and quickly, to encourage him to apologise? And I would invite him to listen to the relatives of those who died in Afghanistan, who I talk with and I listen to at remembrance services in Norton Fitzwarren, near 40 Commando Camp, on a regular basis.

Perhaps then he would understand the sacrifice that people made for freedom, for freedom of Americans, for freedom of Europeans who died, and also all those who were injured. His remarks are utterly contemptuous, and he should be ashamed of them. And it shows what an unreliable ally he is to our United Kingdom on the covenant. I welcome that in particular, the additional support, therefore, for the covenant and for those that will be supported by it. In Somerset, the Somerset Council has, through its guaranteed interview scheme, taken the covenant to to to take the covenant very seriously and delivering it.

But it's only going to be effective if the resources are there for the public services to stand behind it. As has been said by the director general of the Royal British Legion, who says it's vital that services, those delivering services are resourced with the funding and training so they can fully understand the purpose of the Armed Forces Covenant to ensure this change makes a meaningful difference to the lives of all those in the armed Forces community. Our servicemen and women deserve that support and our veterans deserve that support.

Our veterans certainly do not deserve to be considered in any way equivalent with terrorists in Northern Ireland who sought to undermine peace and law and order. So it's right that last week's vote overturned the Legacy Act provisions which gave immunity to terrorists. What we need are protections which, unlike the failed Legacy Act, will stand up in court and I urge the government to seriously consider Liberal Democrat amendments to the Northern Ireland Troubles Bill in the name. My hon.

Friend, the Member for Wimbledon, which we put forward far stronger protections for veterans than in the bill so far. But returning to this bill, I was pleased as Lib Dem housing spokesperson to put forward an amendment and renters rights bill, ultimately adopted in section 101 of what's now the Renters Rights Act on service, family accommodation and meeting the Decent Homes standard. But timelines matter. Madam Deputy Speaker. The importance of that given past promises, is set out in the Defence Housing Strategy, where it says promises have been made time and time again.

All homes would meet the decent homes standard. That didn't happen. That was under the Conservatives. But let's hope this government's promises are not empty in this. In this new era of government, the new duty of the Renters Rights Act requires the MoD to report to Parliament on achieving the Decent Homes standard for service family accommodation. But the first report doesn't need to be made until March 2027, and the plan contains no targets. The Defence Housing plan contains no targets on how long it will take or when that service family accommodation will meet decent homes standard.

So I urge the government to give a timeline and for this important commitment to our service families. Our original amendment would have instituted the duty to upgrade immediately and on single living accommodation we need timelines as well as other hon. Members, have said. The bill's new defence housing body comes as part of a 9,000,000,010 year strategy and that indeed is very welcome. It sounds very good, but how much of that 9 billion will go on civilian housing, and how much of it will actually go on service family accommodation? These questions matter.

For example, the Armed Forces Survey in 2025 found that 1 in 3, nearly 1 in 3 respondents described armed forces accommodation in negative terms, and nearly two thirds of respondents list the impact on family and personal life of service accommodation as one of the top reasons influencing them to leave the armed forces. One respondent said lack of assistance has significantly contributed to my decision to leave military service. So in summary, Madam Deputy Speaker, we need to see real targets for when the Decent Homes Standard will be met for service families and on when single living accommodation will be upgraded in any organised

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way. We also need to see a firm commitment to get. I will give way of course. I thank.

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My hon. Friend for giving way. One of the critical points of the Armed Forces covenant is that it extends across government to all extends across government to all government departments, and it particularly requires our local particularly requires our local councils to play their part and intervene based on the points that intervene based on the points that he's just made. Can he provide some guidance on how his council will be

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ensuring that the covenant is delivered? I thank the gentleman for his intervention. As I said at the intervention. As I said at the beginning, I'm pleased that Somerset Council is leading on things like a guaranteed interview scheme. The fact the research that's done recently on how the delivery of NHS services, particularly to veterans, is matching up and there's a whole set of recommendations that I would refer him to. And I'm delighted refer him to. And I'm delighted that my colleagues at Somerset Council are playing such a leading role in delivering the covenant.

I believe already are a covenant county in terms of strengthening that delivery and strengthening that, as well as a covenant, a covenant town and a covenant county. But in, in in summing up, Madam Deputy Speaker, we need that firm commitment not just to delivering on the covenant, but to get troop numbers back up to over 100,000. We will create a £10,000 signing bonus and a £20,000 re-enlisting bonus to make that happen. We also need to see the defence investment plan so that companies like Leonardo and Somerset maintain our vital helicopter manufacturing capacity in this country, and I give way.



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I thank the hon. Member for giving way. Somerset is a really giving way. Somerset is a really very important defence town. Leonardo has a strong history of building helicopters there, being building helicopters there, being able to bring about the investment that Leonardo requires is a key part of the defence investment plan. part of the defence investment plan. Would he provide some views on perhaps the Defence Security and perhaps the Defence Security and Resilience Bank, which may be a method of bringing forward that investment without putting the finance upon the government's already indebted balance sheet?

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I would. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution about the investment bank. I would welcome any commitment that will secure the the ability for the UK to manufacture helicopters at Yeovil in Somerset. It's vitally important not just for the medium important not just for the medium lift helicopter, but also for the unmanned, uncrewed helicopters. Without that facility, we're losing that facility would be devastating that facility would be devastating for the United Kingdom defence industry, as well as for the community around Somerset and the 3000 jobs involved.

So it's absolutely vital that defence investment plan comes as soon as possible. And unless, though Madam Deputy Speaker we fix housing, we'll be undermining recruitment

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and retention. Thank you very much. I call Lizzi Collinge. Thank you, Madam Deputy.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy. Speaker. In my constituency of Morecambe and Lunesdale, 5.5% of residents are veterans. That's residents are veterans. That's higher than the North west average and much higher than the national average of 3.8%. In fact, 1 in 10 households in my constituency contains a veteran. That's why our promise that the general election promise that the general election to extend the Armed Forces covenant to every area of government was so important to me. And through this Armed Forces Bill, we are delivering on that commitment.

My constituents served in Afghanistan, the Balkans, Northern Ireland. One veteran who I first met in 2023 helped liberate Belgium, liberate Belsen, Bergen concentration camp, defending democracy, protecting the vulnerable, defending our country and of course, standing shoulder to shoulder with our allies. And I think this is a fitting time, Madam Deputy Speaker, to recognise the 457 British troops who died in Afghanistan. Here and having our thoughts, those still living with the injuries and the memories from that conflict, including, of course, our armed forces Minister, who served five tours in Afghanistan, and our veterans Minister, who also served there, and of course, members from across the House.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the Armed Forces Covenant is the promise between our nation and those who protect.
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Lizzi Collinge Portrait Lizzi Collinge MP (Morecambe and Lunesdale, Labour)
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It should give way. way. >> Very much grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. I, like you, have. Sorry I like her, have many veterans in my constituency and veterans in my constituency and when I speak to them, they often talk about how lip service is paid to the Armed Forces covenant. So does she agree with me that we must make sure that when it is extended

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to every public sector organisation, it they're held to account to deliver it. I thank the hon. Gentleman for

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I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, and I absolutely agree with him that no longer can we just have warm words and lip service. What this needs is action, because this contract says because this contract says something very simple. If you're prepared to serve your country, then your country must serve you then your country must serve you properly in return. And for too long, our country has failed to honour that commitment. The latest Armed Forces Continuous Attitude Survey revealed that only a quarter of our service personnel believe they're valued by society.

Let's think about that for a moment. Only 1 in 4 of the men and women who wear our uniform believe that their country truly recognises what they give. And that I believe, Madam Deputy Speaker, is a sign of a profound political failure over the last two decades. But my constituents in Morecambe and Lunesdale really do know the value of our armed forces. In 2025, 30,000 people attended Armed Forces Day in Morecambe. This year, we're actually having Armed Forces Day over three days, and I'm sure any member of the frontbench would be very welcome to come locally.

Organisations like Healthier Heroes, The Royalty Group, Morecambe FC, Community Foundation and Vets all do fantastic work supporting veterans in our area and the armed Forces. Covenant is also our nation's commitment to fairness for those who serve, for our veterans, for their families and of course, for the bereaved. Not just in combat, but in housing, in hospitals, in job centres and in homes across the country. And the renewal of this contract has to start with the government. It has to be built into our law, the decisions that we take here and of course the funding that we give and there's no better place to start than in housing because for too long service families have been left in damp, cold, mouldy homes.

And that's a betrayal of their service. And so Labour has ended the failed privatisation of military housing, saving over £200 million a year and reinvesting it into fixing homes. And this bill creates a publicly owned defence housing service, renewing 9 in 10, 9 in 10 armed forces homes and delivering the biggest upgrade to military accommodation in over 50 years. But fairness for those who serve can't just stop at housing. Of course, this bill extends the Armed Forces covenant across government, making public services legally bound to consider the unique needs of service personnel and their families.

That was a manifesto commitment of this Labour government and we are delivering it. Yet it also strengthens the service justice system, giving service police and courts greater powers and putting victims first with new protections against sexual violence and abuse. And I recognise the first steps made by the last government in this.

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On that. Point we should. Give way, give way. I thank you for giving way. It is so important.

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is so important. Is it not, that we recognise when we are setting out to tackle violence against women and girls, that that has to extend across all that that has to extend across all of society, and it cannot be right that those bravely serving in our armed forces have to be the victims of sexual violence in their workplace, whilst they are doing

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workplace, whilst they are doing the most important job there can be defending our nation. I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention and I absolutely agree with him. Our mission as a government is to halve violence against women and girls and that, of course, has to include the women who serve in our armed forces. No one should be unsafe when they serve our country. No one should be subjected to violence and abuse. In this more dangerous world. This bill also expands our reserve forces and improves mobilisation, including the voluntary increase in the recall age.

So vital experience isn't lost. And we know many reservists have been asking for this. Alongside this, recruitment and retention reforms are already working, recruitment up, outflows down and applications across the service are rising. And of course this sits within a wider reset. For 14 years, the Conservative Party hollowed out our armed forces, putting plans in place without funding and overseeing record lows in military morale. Now they might talk about supporting our armed forces, but when in government, they didn't put their money where their mouth was.

And what do we see from other backbenchers? Madam Deputy Speaker, the reform MPs haven't even bothered to show up today. I mean, maybe they're too busy making cameo videos or forgetting to declare hundreds of thousands of pounds of extra income and gifts. Their plastic patriotism shows no real desire or ability to make things better, just a continual desire to do our country down whilst listening across to big money and foreign governments, not our country and our people here.

Hear. Labour is making great strides though, to turn around the failed conservative legacy and is committing to the biggest sustained spending on defence since the end of the Cold War. And we know we need to strengthen our armed forces to deal with that uncertain world that we're seeing with these shifting geopolitics. And of course, the Defence Industrial Strategy will make sure that this increased spending is spent on British jobs in British towns, in British businesses, and of course, as well, very proud of the pay increase that we gave to our armed forces too often.

Madam Deputy Speaker, when we speak about military heroics and service, our stories are confined to the past, but our armed forces are serving us right now across the world. They're helping Ukraine defend itself against Russian aggression and in doing so, providing a bulwark against those who would weaken democracy as a whole. They're strengthening strengthening Britain's ties in the Indo-Pacific. With the carrier strike group led by the HMS Prince of Wales, they're serving in NATO missions, contributing to UN peacekeeping, de-escalating tensions in the Middle East and, of course, protecting our shores at home.

To meet their dedication and commitment, the government has to

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deliver our side of the contract and that is what this bill does. Thank you, Mr. Jonathan Brash.

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Thank you, Mr. Jonathan Brash. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I want to start with an email that I received today from a Hartlepool veteran whose name is Ian. He told me in his email that Ian. He told me in his email that he put his life on the line in the Falklands, in Northern Ireland and the Persian Gulf, in Afghanistan
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Jonathan Brash Portrait Mr Jonathan Brash MP (Hartlepool, Labour)
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the Persian Gulf, in Afghanistan and Iraq, and that he was disgusted by the comments of President Trump. Indeed, he says, an apology from Trump to the UK publicly should be forthcoming. And I want to place on record again. The US president has not apologised for the disgraceful things that he said about our service personnel and the service personnel of our allies, and I would also like to pay tribute to the leadership in recent days of our armed forces Minister, who I know has brought a great deal of comfort to veterans, very distressed by what they've heard in

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the news. And I happily give way. Well. Gentleman, for giving way. And

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Gentleman, for giving way. And does he agree with me that it's really important that our benches do contain those honourable and do contain those honourable and gallant members who can give us a real taste of what it's like, real taste of what it's like, because for civvies like me, it's all fine and well to be making decisions. But actually what we need to do is listen to people who

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need to do is listen to people who have served and who are serving. I thank you for intervention. I absolutely agree that these benches are strengthened by having honourable and gallant members, like the Armed Forces Minister, to help lead this country, and I will say his actions in recent days are in stark contrast to the weasel words from some so-called leaders who refuse to call out the US president in a way that we all should. I welcome the direction of travel set out in this bill for our serving personnel, our veterans, and their and their families.

After years of neglect and cuts, our armed forces are finally receiving the focus, attention and respect they deserve. And when this government came into office, it delivered the largest pay increase for 22 years for our armed forces. And that matters not just in pounds and pence, but in the message it sends that this country values their service, their sacrifice and their commitment. And those pay rises stand alongside wider reforms to improve everyday service life, including action on forces, housing and the strengthened Armed Forces Covenant.

For the first time, public bodies will be required to properly consider the unique pressures faced by service families when making decisions on housing, on healthcare, on education and other essential services. This is long overdue, and these reforms are further reinforced by the government's plan to deliver joined up regional support for serving personnel, veterans and their families. And in Hartlepool, where we are home to some 4000 veterans, as part of a wider North East bid led by the extraordinary team at the East Durham Veterans Trust.

We are aiming to secure a support centre in the Middleton Grange shopping Centre at the centre of Hartlepool. This is truly a team effort with the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Easington and Stockton North, our local NHS, our Armed Forces Liaison Group, the Development Corporation which has provided the space rent free. Our Armed Forces champion, Councillor Chris Wallace, and our council which under the leadership of Councillor Pamela Hargreaves, is providing free car parking for any veteran who uses the centre.

Hartlepool United, in its support for veterans. However, the main reason I wanted to speak in today's debate was around the bill's proposed reforms to the service justice system, particularly those relating to victims of service offences. These provisions are vital, but they must be shaped by the lived experience of those the system has failed. The case of my constituent, Richard Lee, shows just how badly things can go wrong. In 1981, Richard's two year old daughter Katrice disappeared while their family were stationed in Germany for more than 44 years, the family have lived not only with the pain of that loss, but with the compounded trauma of how they were treated by the Royal Military Police.

They were not treated as victims, they were treated as a nuisance. In 2012, the Royal Military Police issued a written apology, but not to the family, and acknowledged the failings of the investigation. Yet to this day, those failings have never been fully explained, nor has there ever been transparency and accountability that the family deserves. Even more distressing, a former investigating officer publicly admitted those failures last year on BBC Radio Four's The Patch, stating that there had been not enough searching and they had not considered that someone would abduct a child yet again, a mission not made to the families themselves.

When I was elected, I arranged for Richard to meet the then veterans Minister, now Armed Forces Minister and the victims Minister. It was a remarkable moment and I pay tribute to my colleagues for their compassion, decency and openness. In that meeting, we jointly agreed that a visit would take place to the Defence Serious Crimes Unit in Portsmouth to discuss the case further. The visit was arranged by the Royal Military Police, but they failed to invite the Ministers. Once again, Richard and his family felt let down and I hope that visit can now go ahead.

As promised, Richard and his family are victims. The system admits it failed them. And yet, more than four decades on, they are still seeking justice, still seeking answers and still seeking basic respect. That is why the provisions in this bill relating to victims of service offences matter so much as statutory Victims Code for the service justice system could be a major step forward, but only if it is built around the voices of the victims themselves. Thank you.
21:09
Calvin Bailey Portrait Mr Calvin Bailey MP (Leyton and Wanstead, Labour)
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Arthur Calvin Bailey. >> I want to start by Woking this bill as an opportunity to renew our nation's contract with those who serve and to provide further protections for our personnel and their families. And as a veteran their families. And as a veteran who endured the consequences of the 2010 Strategic Defence Review, I am proud to be part of putting this right. Due to time, I will focus on just two aspects the extension of the armed forces covenant duty and the reforms being made to our reserves.

Under this bill, the covenant will apply to all government departments and policy areas vital to service life. From my work as the chair of the Armed Forces, Parliamentary Armed Forces Committee, Community APPG and on the Defence Select Committee, I know that the covenants application has far too often been patchy, leaving people disadvantaged by service life. One clear example is the limited application to the Home Office and to UK Visas and Immigration. Today, around 8000 members of our armed forces and non UK personnel, and more than 1 in 20 of all trained regulars.

Yet too many still face needless barriers to building a stable life in the UK. This government's commitment to remove visa fees for non-UK personnel who have served four years or more is welcome, but we can and should go further. Under the current ILR process, applicants can be left unable to work while their cases are being are being processed, creating real financial hardship at the point of transition and exit from the service, which was the case for Sergeant Richie Lumsden.

After 20 years of service to this country, he found himself worrying about keeping a roof over his head simply because he came from Trinidad. With the Mod increasing the proportion of non-UK service personnel to 12%, more people will be affected unless we act. The Home Office needs to think differently, including about an opt in system that properly reflects service. If we do not make the path fairer for our Commonwealth service personnel, they will stop coming. That would be a failure of both fairness and foresight.

I turn now to the reserves. Reserve forces are critical to our strategic depth. Reservists search serve under NATO command structures and are integral to how we fight wars. But for too long, the reserve offer has been disjointed and inflexible. The reforms in this bill increasing the upper age limit of 65, harmonising recall liability and allowing veterans to opt in, are sensible changes that reflect modern working

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lives. I will give way. I'm grateful to him, and I know that he comes at this from a position not only of having served, but also serving now on the Defence Committee. So that point about the Committee. So that point about the age limit for recall liability. Does he know whether any modelling has been done to see what impact

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has been done to see what impact this might have on recruitment? The hon. Member for giving way I

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The hon. Member for giving way I do not know. And perhaps that's something that the frontbench could expand on in their responses. But what I do know and have experiences of, if people like Flight Lieutenant Mark Raymond, who served under me on the airdrop team that delivered life saving aid to the Yazidi people, who was eventually retired at 64 years old, but only after having to apply for annual extensions each year after turning 60. That was not because his capability had diminished, but because the system wouldn't allow him to do so, and probably also because the other the opposition deleted the C-130.

A very bad mistake. Reservists and planners have long argued for a more individualised approach to service, one that recognises experiences and skill rather than forcing people out at an arbitrary age. When war comes, it does not discriminate, and it will require the contribution of the whole of society. Our armed forces must be structured to draw on all of the talent we have. I also welcome that this bill makes it easier for people to move between regular service careers and the reserves.

A zigzag model of service reflects modern careers and helps us retain invaluable experience, rather than losing it altogether. This bill provides a platform for Armed Forces model fit for the future, one that rewards service, supports families and ensures the covenant is is real across government. Our service people deserve nothing less, and I commend this bill to the House, and I hope that some of the examples that I've spoken about this evening, particularly those that rely on the support of other government departments and changes that those other government departments must take on board, are taken by all of the members in the House this evening, and that they are championed, and that you go out and do the work necessary to highlight such cases, particularly in the examples that I've mentioned.

And I look forward to hearing how extensions under medal medical capacity could benefit from our benefit. Our service families, particularly under dental and in health, and how this support can be extended into parts of our nation where service numbers are high. But

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will. I thank my hon. Friend. My hon.

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I thank my hon. Friend. My hon. Friend has talked about a total the total society approach to defence related to our Strategic Defence review. How does he agree with me that we actually need a total that we actually need a total government approach to defence if we're going to deliver on both the we're going to deliver on both the strategic Strategic Defence review, but also on these covenant commitments?

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I thank the hon. Member for the covenant town of Aldershot for her power into powerful intervention. And she's entirely right. It is imperative that we recognise that imperative that we recognise that it's nations that fight, fight wars, not the military in my constituency not the military in my constituency and Leyton and Wanstead, I look with great admiration at those with great admiration at those people that service the trains that run into Europe. Those trains will take our tanks and troops in the moment of crisis all the way up to Estonia.

But that requires the Department for trade to recognise the necessary contribution that can be made, and that requires the Department of Trade to invest and understand in the PESCO offer from the European Union, and also what the right hon. Member from Tunbridge Wells mentioned earlier, which is an incredibly important and powerful point that the military and our defence does not just protect us abroad, it also helps to galvanise and draw us together as communities and give people meaningful work and a meaningful existence.

And if we do that, then we will be stronger, not only at home, but we will be stronger at board. We will make a meaningful contribution to the EU and to NATO, and to the security of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, able to meet our equipment, our commitments far and wide from the Gaia Gap, all the way across to Estonia and up into Finland. And so it is for those reasons that I'm incredibly grateful to have the opportunity to speak today.

I commend this bill to

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the House. Peter Swallow. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, as MP for Sandhurst, as well as for Bracknell, I'm incredibly proud to represent the home of the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst and Military Academy Sandhurst and proud to speak today on a bill which delivers on our commitment to which delivers on our commitment to our armed forces. This bill fully enshrines the expanded Armed Forces Covenant into law, increases protections for those who serve, protections for those who serve, including from sexual and violent behaviour, and establishes a publicly owned Defence Housing Service backed by a £9 billion strategy to end the shameful record of the party opposite and make sure our service people and their families have the homes they deserve.

In the South East alone, we will see over 14,000 military homes renewed, including in my constituency.
21:18
Peter Swallow Portrait Peter Swallow MP (Bracknell, Labour)
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Yeah. well as inward, and which rises to the gravity of the threats we face as a nation today. In order to protect us, our service people must be supported, housed decently, listened to. They must also be equipped to meet the challenges before them. So I am pleased that this bill contains ambitious measures to grow and sustain our nation's readiness in these turbulent times. This bill will enhance our ability to mobilise rapidly by expanding our reserve pool, through increasing the maximum age limit for recall to the reserve forces and giving my right hon.

Friend, the Secretary of State, the power to authorise recall in a conflict scenario, and I especially welcome that these measures are a direct response to the Strategic Defence. Reviews call for a transformation in the way our

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defence and security is organised and delivered. Of course. I thank.

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My hon. Friend for giving way Morecambe and Lunesdale. We have some absolutely fantastic cadet cause, and actually the Lord Lieutenant of Lancashire is looking at how to extend these cadet cause into cyber security as well, which into cyber security as well, which is really exciting. So does my hon. Friend agree with me that those cadets are really vital to the

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cadets are really vital to the future of our armed forces? Absolutely. And as well as our reservists, we have a huge role for the cadets to play. I'm so proud that this government is committed to expanding the cadets by 30% by 2030, including making sure that there are more opportunities for cadets to learn Stem skills like I'm hearing in her constituency.

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On that point. I thank my hon. Friend for

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I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. At the other end of the scale, we've seen a significant scale, we've seen a significant expansion of the service life that we can offer members of the armed we can offer members of the armed forces. Flight Lieutenant Phil Poppy Powell was a Special forces Poppy Powell was a Special forces pilot for nearly 30 years. Can I does the hon. Member agree with me that people such as Poppy should be given as much time within the

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service to practice their craft? Absolutely. And whilst many of those serving in my constituency are right at the start of their careers. I also recognise that the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst Royal Military Academy Sandhurst would not function were it not for the many armed forces personnel who spend a significant portion of their careers dedicated to training the next generation of army leaders. the next generation of army leaders. And I want to pay tribute to them and all that they do.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I hope the powers in this bill are never needed, but we owe it to our brave armed forces to be prepared for any eventuality, and we cannot pretend we are not living in a more dangerous world than even a few years ago. With war returning to Europe following Putin's illegal invasion of Ukraine, the spheres in which warfare can play out are no longer limited to the physical. And by that I mean in the sky, the sea and the land.

It is a fact that our information and online spheres are constantly under attack by those who would wish to see us weakened, and we must go further and faster to robustly defend our society and security in all quarters. New and developing technology is changing the nature of the threats we face constantly. It's right that measures are taken to protect security at our military bases, by permitting the use of approved equipment to prevent or detect drones being used near these sensitive sites.

And I welcome the moves this government has taken to ensure we have a modern, world class cyber and specialist operations command because threats to our British values, our democracy and our way of life are increasingly cyber threats. Madam Deputy Speaker, a nation's defence is only as strong as those who serve to uphold it. And this bill bolsters our armed forces and gives personnel and their families the support they deserve, just as they support our most vital national interests every day.

This is a bill. This is a government which takes its responsibility to our security and our service people seriously. And I am proud to back this bill.

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RBL Danny Beales. Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker, I'm pleased to speak in this evening's debate speak in this evening's debate about the proposed Armed Forces Bill, which shows that this Labour government is one that puts our government is one that puts our forces, veterans and their families first, particularly in light of recent international events, recent international events, increasing global instability. We have almost a daily reminder when we turn on our television screens, we turn on our television screens, that our brave men and women are the first port of call and our last line of defence in times of conflict and instability.

So it's entirely right that as we increase our investment in equipment and defence facilities, we also rightly invest in the number one military asset, our defence personnel. We should also be clear in light of the recent reprehensible comments from President Trump, that UK and other NATO country military personnel have always been there when called upon. They are the best and the bravest amongst us and have and continue to put their lives on the line for our collective security in the West.

I am proud of them and I know this House is proud of them, and this bill is part of our recommitment to them that we will not just have words but also actions. Yeah, Uxbridge and South Ruislip my constituency has a proud and long military history in connection that a key base from which we fought and won the Battle of Britain, and today it is also part of our present and future capabilities for our armed forces. It's home to RAF Northolt, the nearby Northwood military base, and has a significant military community.

I therefore welcome the creation of a new publicly owned defence housing service, backed by a £9 billion Armed Forces housing strategy to to build, renew and repair thousands of military homes in Uxbridge and South Ruislip. We are home to 518 family homes, and this is the fifth largest military housing stock in UK constituencies. Having spoken to many families over recent years. And and I've seen first hand the conditions that they have to live in, it is shocking that their experience in military housing often falls far short of what we would all expect here in this house for our own homes damp, mould, disrepair, cracks in walls big enough to put your hands in it is truly shameful.

I am particularly pleased, therefore, that through this bill the is delivering on its commitment to reverse decades of underinvestment and to end the scandal of poor quality military housing. And whilst there is light at the end of the tunnel for military families living in forces accommodation, it is deeply shameful that we ever got to this place that the Conservatives left defence housing in an absolute mess in 2023. Satisfaction with service family accommodation hit a record low, with 1 in 5 service personnel satisfied with repairs and maintenance, and only now under a Labour government, with a deal negotiated in the first six months of office, have nearly 36 forces family homes been brought back into public ownership and we are rightly improving their condition.

And as a result, 9 in 10 military homes will be modernised and upgraded with new higher standards lifting the living standards of hundreds of families. In my constituency, we saw that this change start to bear fruit towards the end of the last year, and I was pleased to welcome the Secretary of State to view 100 properties being modernised in my constituency with new doors, windows, decoration, kitchens and other improvements. It was an absolute privilege to see this work take effect, and I hope that the new housing service will have a broader remit than just bricks and mortar, but also about investing in the places in which these homes exist and play facilities for children, and in utilities such as fibre optic broadband, which are often missing in our defence personnel housing.

I welcome this bill and I welcome the improvement to existing homes, as well as the commitment to better use underutilised land to generate capital receipts, to reinvest and provide much needed homes for local people. And I hope the Minister will confirm that new housing that is delivered will also be given for first preference to the military and former military personnel as part of any new builds. Madam Deputy Speaker, whether our cadets are reservists or armed forces personnel and their families, they are absolutely vital to our national security.

I strongly support the progress of this Bill to honour our commitment to them, that they will have the pay, the conditions, the homes and the equipment they need to continue to perform their vital role. Thank you Pam Cox.
21:26
21:27
Pam Cox Portrait Pam Cox MP (Colchester, Labour)
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more thing about housing, which is that I'm delighted that this government is bringing the biggest overhaul of military housing in a overhaul of military housing in a generation, and I look forward to working with various teams around that in my Colchester constituency and the garrison there. Madam Deputy Speaker, the work of our Deputy Speaker, the work of our armed forces is extraordinary for another reason, a very singular one, which is that it requires the laying down of life. The Parachute Regiment is based in Colchester, with links to other garrisons around the country.

During the Afghan conflict, 37 members of the Parachute Regiment gave their lives and many more were injured. Their selfless sacrifice deserves the utmost respect from us in this country and from all our allies,

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including the United States. Here.

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I'm going to close by commending this bill to the House, but also by commending an outstanding commending an outstanding frontbench defence team who brought the bill and are doing so much to lead our country in this way. So

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lead our country in this way. So thank you so much. Minister Mark Francois. Yes.

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Yes. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, it's a pleasure to follow my fellow Essex MP, the Member for Colchester, not least as she has the privilege of representing Merville Barracks, which I visited a number of times down the years and which is the home of our elite unit in 16 Air Assault Brigade. I have to be
21:29
Mark Francois Portrait Rt Hon Mark Francois MP (Rayleigh and Wickford, Conservative)
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careful in saying that, because I have a fellow Royal Marine sitting behind me on the bench at the same behind me on the bench at the same time. May I begin by thanking the Minister for the very helpful briefing about potential events in Iran. I was nevertheless both surprised and delighted when I was ushered into one of the historical rooms in the mod, to be pleasantly confronted by the entire build team of officials who are responsible for the Armed Forces Bill.

Their subsequent briefing was extremely helpful, and I'm grateful. The Armed Forces Bill is a very necessary piece of legislation, which has to be passed by Parliament at least every five years. By tradition, this quinquennial bill is relatively non-controversial, and in that spirit, as my right hon. Friend, the the shadow Defence Secretary said, and just as we did with the recent Armed Forces Commissioners Bill, we see our role on this side of the House as being a critical friend to the Bill to engage in debate with an aim to improving it where possible, although we do, of course, reserve the right to hold the government to account on a variety of matters.

Two in particular, which I may take the liberty of returning to whilst the bill's 55 clauses and seven schedules cover a variety of topics, everything from drones, a particular hot button for the Minister, and indeed for my line manager, to from drones to powers of commanding officers. The bill mainly encompasses four principal areas, which are reserves in clauses 31 to 37, defence, housing and other property, a lengthy clause three the Armed Forces Covenant, an equally lengthy clause two and potential changes to the service justice system, which is covered in several clauses, but principally 5 to 16 and 20 to 26.

I should like to say a little bit about each of these areas in turn. But before I do, I want to place on the record that we have now been debating the Armed Forces Bill, a very important piece of legislation regarding the future and welfare of His Majesty's Armed Forces, and still not a single reform MP has been present in the chamber, let alone made a speech. If these people want to wrap themselves in the flag, they should at least take the trouble to turn up to support the people who actually defend that flag, both in this country and around the globe.

They've been too busy spreading misinformation about my party's attitude to Northern Ireland veterans today, and I suspect that's another reason they didn't want to come in here and face the music.

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On that very point. Absolutely. I'm very grateful to the shadow Minister on that very point. The Minister on that very point. The hon. Member will remember, the shadow Minister will remember that one of the first things I did on one of the first things I did on leaving the Army in 2013 was write a policy paper for policy exchange on the fog of war, that lawfare, on the fog of war, that lawfare, that legal intervention in the battlefield that causes confusion and that leads so many down a terrible path, of which Northern Ireland is one example.

But actually there are many others. He'll remember that this party, our party has been absolutely on this for years, trying to clear those obstacles that have been created by various different constructs, like the Human Rights Act and the ECHR. And he will now, I'm sure, be one of the champions, along with the Leader of the Opposition, on finding a proper solution that answers that. Will you agree with me that this is how real government is done? By doing the hard work over many years to find the real

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answers that apply, and not just simply by shouting at others. Quite right.

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Quite right. My right there is an old saying in politics that the world is run by those that turn up. Well, reform by those that turn up. Well, reform didn't turn up on reserves. First, I should declare an interest, as I I should declare an interest, as I did serve as an infantry officer in the 1980s in the fifth Battalion of the Royal Anglian Regiment, which the Royal Anglian Regiment, which was a NATO role battalion, part of 49 Infantry Brigade, which in turn was part of the second Infantry Division, whose core mission was essentially to reinforce what was then the British Army of the Rhine in the event of World War Three, including service in the Officer Training Corps prior to joining five Royal Anglian.

I did some seven years in total. I was an exercise Lionheart in 1984 as an officer cadet, and I also exercise in Cyprus in West Berlin as a junior officer. Nevertheless, I was at no time deployed on active service and so, unlike the Minister, I have no medals at all because I never did anything which merited one. But despite that, I'm still proud to carry the late Queen's commission. And I like to believe that had the balloon gone up, our battalion would have done our best to defend the bridge over the liner River, which was our wartime task.

Very briefly.

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I say, as much as. We have occasionally sparred across this chamber, but I think across this chamber, but I think what he just said there speaks volumes for the role that our reservists play up and down the country, whether they are deployed, country, whether they are deployed, whether they get medals or whatever the case, so many ordinary men and the case, so many ordinary men and women stepping forward. And I say this as somebody who has not done it myself, and I hold my hand up to that, stepping forward and saying that, stepping forward and saying that they would serve their country if push came to shove.

And that is so important. And I just wanted to

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pay tribute to what he said and to all of our reservists. For his kind intervention. It's true. We have sparred famously once on one occasion, but nonetheless, I utterly agree with the spirit of utterly agree with the spirit of his intervention, which I'm sure will carry the support of the entire House tonight. The number of entire House tonight. The number of measures in the bill to improve reserve service are subject mentioned by multiple members, including the one who has just spoken, but also the hon.

Member for Tonbridge, for North East Cambridgeshire, for North Devon and others as well. These measures cover potential transition to war and Regularising call up liabilities across all three services. We think these proposals largely make sense, although I have to confess that having recently turned 60, I now see that the Minister wants to extend the call up liability to 65. So I best dust off my old set of webbing at the back of the garage somewhere, just in case I want to make a bit of progress, perhaps later if I have time.

Turning to housing, I should again declare a different interest in that this was an area I cared about very much when I served as an Mod Minister. When I left ministerial office in 2016, the then Prime Minister, Theresa may, commissioned me in a small team to write a report about military recruitment, including terms of service such as service housing. We eventually entitled it Filling the Ranks, and this was submitted to the Prime Minister with a copy to the Defence Secretary in 2017.

The report made 20 recommendations for improving recruitment, ranging from a better advertising and further expansion of cadet units through to taking a more realistic approach to minor medical ailments such as mild eczema and temporary childhood asthma. 19 of those recommended were accepted and actioned to varying degrees, but unfortunately the one which was not was to consider sacking capita or, according to private hire capita. Unfortunately, I never managed to persuade our Ministers to do that. Despite the company's truly awful record on Army recruitment.

The peer review of filling the ranks was positive, however, as we were making visits to military establishments and interviewing everyone from privates to very senior officers, including on many of the issues now contained in the bill tonight. In nearly every case, within 15 minutes of talking about recruitment, we found ourselves involved in a related conversation about retention in. In simple terms, we learned very quickly that there was no point widening the aperture of the recruitment tap. If you couldn't put a retention plug in the sink.

We therefore, we were therefore delighted to be recommissioned to undertake a second report specifically into retention, which we subsequently entitled Stick or Twist, as we thought that encapsulated the Serviceman's dilemma and which was eventually submitted to the new Prime Minister, one Boris Johnson. In February 2020, a month before the country went into lockdown. This report touched upon a number of facets of the Armed Forces covenant, which are again part of the bill, and I have copies of both of those reports here tonight.

Quite a few of the recommendations in Stick or Twist were also adopted, and the then defence secretary, Ben Wallace, used it to persuade the Treasury to provide some extra tens of millions of pounds to improve childcare facilities at a number of bases around the country. So it was worth doing the report, if only for that. I should like to pay tribute tonight to the small team that helped me to compile the two reports, Colonel. Now, Brigadier Simon Goldstein, himself a former distinguished reservist.

My two researchers, Miss Sophie Darren Jones and then Mr. Rory Bowden, who worked tirelessly between them to produce two documents written in a select committee style, with all the work that that entails for Prime Ministerial and Defence Secretary attention. Again, however, the most controversial suggestion, stick or twist, was not adopted, which was to form a forces Housing association and thus bring in expertise from the registered social landlord sector to better manage service, families, accommodation or CFA. Frankly, at the time, this was simply too much for the vested interests and the MoD's Defence Infrastructure Organisation to accept.

Nevertheless, I was delighted when my right hon. Friend, the Shadow Defence Secretary, announced a few months ago our intention to introduce such a body if we return to government. The Armed Forces Bill has much to say on this topic, as indeed have many members this evening, especially in clause three, which heralds the creation of a Defence Housing Service, which is conceptually similar in some ways to what was first recommended in Stick or Twist six years ago, but with some important differences.

I genuinely look forward to debating the respective merits of the two approaches with the Minister during the bill's Committee stage. The bill also touches on the issue of the Armed Forces Covenant, which is a matter we've discussed in this House on many occasions. In essence, the intention is to spread the authority of the covenant to cover other government departments, including education and the NHS. We do have a number of suggestions for how this process might be improved. For instance, in special needs education, which we hope to explore in committee.

I'd also like to pay tribute to the lady for Birmingham Edgbaston for what she said about the Queen Elizabeth Hospital, Birmingham. I had the privilege of visiting the military unit there on two occasions, once in the company of His Royal Highness, the then Prince of Wales, now His Majesty the King, and I echo everything she said about the excellence of that department at that hospital in caring for those who have served their country. The bill then goes into some detail about potential improvements in the service justice system.

This touches in part on a number of quite sensitive areas, not least those highlighted by my former Defence Select Committee colleague Sarah Atherton. In what became known as the Atherton Report. We shall again attempt to explore the merits and details of these proposals in committee. Before I conclude, I want to refer to the remarks of President Trump about the brave soldiers who fought alongside our United States and other allies in Afghanistan. Would that he had not said such things, especially as our troops also fought with the Americans in Iraq and in the caves of Bora Bora in 2001, after the United States invoked article five after nine over 11, the only nation ever to do it.

We traditionally avoid discussing royal matters in this House, but if it's true that President Trump's volte face on this was in some way due to royal

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intervention, then all I can say is God save the King. Yeah. So in conclusion, we should endeavour to take a broadly endeavour to take a broadly positive attitude to the bill. But I must caution there are two areas where the traditional consensus may where the traditional consensus may struggle. The first is that the government claims to be fully committed to the two principles of committed to the two principles of the Armed Forces covenant, namely, that no members of the Armed Forces family, be they regulars, reserves, veterans or their loved ones, should suffer any disadvantage as a result of their military service and secondly, that special treatment may in some cases be appropriate, especially for the wounded or bereaved.

However, all this rings hollow when we see what the government are currently doing to our brave Northern Ireland veterans, a matter we were debating in the House just last Wednesday evening over Labour's remedial order to undermine the Conservative Legacy Act, which protects our veterans. Over 100 Labour MPs failed to back that order on the night, including, interestingly, the Prime Minister himself, who abstained, as did over half the Cabinet, including the Defence Secretary and even the armed forces Minister. The government's performed 13 U-turns in the past few months alone, and very much hope for a 14th U-turn over two tier justice and facilitating lawfare, especially against our own vital special forces, and allowing our brave Northern Ireland veterans to live out their lives in peace instead.

No. Finally, with regard to readiness, as the international skies darken, we failed to see how we can improve our deterrent posture by the government imposing 2.6 billion of in-year spending cuts in the Emma Hardy operating Budget this year, and thus reducing training exercises, CDs and flying hours, all in the name of short term cash control. The government constantly claim they're increasing defence spending while concurrently slashing our own armed forces operational spending and also stalling on the defence investment plan, which we were faithfully promised last autumn.

Similarly, we were promised the Defence Readiness Bill, which isn't ready yet. It's like a serious defence strategy turning into waiting for Godot with these two important provisos. Madam Deputy Speaker. We welcome the Bill and I look forward to hearing the Minister's reply, including why he abstained last Wednesday.
21:44
Al Carns Portrait Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)
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Yes, sir. >> Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. And it's a it's a true honour to close this debate today. And can I thank the hon. Members across the whole House who have spoken well in support of our brave servicemen and women, upholding Parliament's proud upholding Parliament's proud cross-party tradition of expressing our profound gratitude to those serving within the UK's armed forces. It is not lost on me who is not here today. I appreciate that some in this chamber have raised questions about the measures in this bill and defence in general.

So let me address some of the hon. Member questions now to the right hon. Member of South Suffolk Rayleigh and Wickford and hon. Members from Taunton and Wellington. You rightly mentioned the service Afghanistan, as many others did in the House today. It's not lost on me when nine over 11 took place. It's the only time article five has actually been called. The US relied on us collectively, not just for our military response, but for an inter-agency response to build the functions and the capability to deal with terrorism that so successfully dealt with today.

It's also not lost on me that per capita, Georgia, the Danish and the Estonians lost a significant amount of souls in that conflict. I often say that those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it, and I think we saw an example of that for the member from Mid Dorset and Poole. It's you highlighted both issues with the covenant, but you also highlighted accommodation and the move towards the next phases of any review. The single service accommodation strategy is well underway.

And on that note the Defence Housing Strategy took place. Can I just pay tribute to Natalie, Elphicke and the whole team, who did an amazing effort on the housing strategy, which has resulted in some of the findings, in particular the creation of the Defence Housing Service, which will alleviate Dio of some of the pressure of looking after housing and professionalise the service as we move forward. I'd also like to welcome the opposition's members member's comments on Ukraine. This is a bipartisan issue.

It's an idea bigger than ourselves, and we welcome and thank them for their support in Ukraine in the early days that we've taken on and continued with the change of government. And one last point to the Mid Dorset and North Poole MP would be I fully support your support to Toby Gutridge and the member's support to Toby Gutridge, an individual I know well and needs our support as he continues with his standard of life. The hon. Friend from Slough, an hon.

Friend from Portsmouth. Barrow and Furness and Edinburgh South West all highlighted issues with the covenant as many other people did today. The reality is this is moving from three areas of government all the way to 14. It's going to be significant, but it's going to take time to put in place, and we've got to accept that at the moment, the implications and the the execution of the covenant is a postcode lottery across the United Kingdom. But there is a requirement to adherence to legal duty.

There will be a communication and education plan to ensure everybody knows the standards that they need to live by. There will be statutory guidance, training and briefing and indeed some of the other projects, such as Operation Valour, which we're running out, will help us police the delivery of the covenant across those councils on reserves. It's I've been a long standing fan of the reserves, and I have to admit, Madam Deputy Speaker, I have a conflict of interest. I am a reservist.

The Army, Navy and Air Force always respond to crisis. But the reality is economies, industries and indeed societies win conflicts. And we all find lessons from Ukraine that reservists often fill the ranks as longer a conflict goes. So I will come to reservist comments later on about how they're being funded, and indeed, how we're going to improve that process to ensure the nation is ready should a crisis befall us. The two issues I will look at now, though, is the fitness application.

I've met individuals who have destroyed 100 tanks, couldn't pass a fitness test in their life. I've met individuals indeed who have killed hundreds of Russians who couldn't pass a fitness test in their life. The reality is, the changes in character of conflict requires different skills. That's why things like cyber, direct entry, and different skills are just as applicable as being able to do pull ups, push ups, or indeed running the medical tests. We've already got rid of 100 outdated medical requirements as long way to go on that, and I'd like to see us open it up as we move forward, and you'll see some of that in the bill as it progresses.

The hon. Member from Lewes. I welcome your support on housing. The scrutiny and governance of that will be absolutely controlled by our sector of state. And I would also say within the covenant, the the ability for us to produce an annual report to ensure that we are to reporting government on the standards of adherence to the Covenant Legal Duty will be pushed every year on the service justice system. You mentioned a cultural change. The member mentioned a cultural change, which indeed is is far broader and required.

It's worth noting raising our standards the Violence Against Women and girls Task Force, zero tolerance policy and a tri-service complaints process are just some of the things that are moving forward outside of the legislative body. This just goes further within legislation as well. Individually relevant collectively, I think it will be significant. The right hon. Friend from Tonbridge, gallant friend from Tonbridge mentioned several speeches in Davos. It's just worth noting, I think there's two quotes that are worth just reiterating here.

A world of fortresses will be poorer, more fragile and less sustainable. We mustn't monetise relationships. Allies will diversify to hedge against uncertainty. Two quotes from Davos, which I think are worth remembering. And what I would say is that we have an idea far bigger than the dollar sign, the euro or the pound, which is a moral obligation for decency, transparency, the right to self-determination and of course, democracy. My hon. Friend from Ipswich, I'd like to thank him for his tribute to the armed forces, and particularly combat to coffee and, of course, the indomitable member Terry Butcher, who pushes so hard to support his armed forces.

And importantly, I would like to see the combat to coffee that we have in the Ministry of Defence replicated across all government departments. Maybe something we can take on as a little separate task. The hon. Member from North Devon. I'd like to thank the Member for his support to for the member's support to the Defence Housing Service. The House would be delighted to know that family satisfaction in defence housing has gone up to the highest level since 2021. There is a long way to go, but we are heading in the right direction.

Similar to recruitment, which is now up 13% and the outflow is down 8%. To the hon. Friend from Birmingham Edgbaston, I'd like to thank my hon. Friend for her constant support to all variety of veterans across the constituency and for being a neighbouring constituency MP. When people question whether we were on the front line in Afghanistan or any of the other conflicts, I suggest one visit and that visit is to Birmingham Selly Oak Hospital. The nurses, the doctors, the carers are second to none and they have seen stuff that would shock us all.

And if there's any better validation of who has been the front line, who hasn't, Birmingham Selly Oak hospital is the place to go. The right hon. Member from North East Cambridgeshire highlighted that the rhetoric was not matched indeed by the record when it came to the reservists. I would say that in some cases his narrative isn't matched with his experience. And what I would say is that all of the facts are useful, but unless you can connect them together, you don't necessarily have the understanding.

Some of his some of the member's comments were absolutely on the money. However, one of the biggest problems with the reserves is not to do with finances. It is actually to do with the complete and utter mess of the

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reserves. Will he. shortly.

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shortly. Does he not accept the fact that the number of reservists and the number of training days have both fallen on his watch, and the sums of money to significantly increase of money to significantly increase those is relatively modest within the over £60 billion that the MoD

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spends. Within the Strategic Defence Review. We've we've gone to increase by 20%. What I would say reserves spending has gone up is gone up in 2324 from 189.8 million to 202.4 million. So it's factually incorrect. And secondly, in the last quarter, our personal statistics has risen train strength from our reserves from 28,000 to 29,000. So I think we just need to collectively check our statistics. The member would also know that to stand here and tell the world about our ability to respond to article three would be slightly misguided.

The member would also like to know that from. He talks about quangos and the creation of them. If he'd read the bill fully, he'd recognise that the the reserve forces and cadets associations are going from 13 to 1 so-called quangos. With the increase of one of the Defence Housing Service, which is absolutely required to deliver the effective housing service. The members will also know that op valour is more money into reservists, into veterans than ever before. And tranche one of the. The funding has now been closed and the recruitment is fully under way.

If you would like to talk through why the recruitment has been paused in the past, I am more than happy to talk about that offline, but I want to make sure the right person is in the right job to make sure that program is a success. The hon. Friend from Aldershot. Can I just thank for the passionate and unrelenting support is not lost on me. It is second to none and super impressive. The hon. Friend from North Durham North Durham has such a resounding history in the armed forces.

It really is impressive and his support to everybody in that constituency I know personally is a passionate issue for himself. The hon. Member for Eastbourne I Eastbourne sorry, I would like to please write to me about the issue with Pauline. I'd like to have a look at it in detail, and I know my hon. Member to my left would also like to do the same. The hon. Friend from North Warwickshire and Bedford just welcome the support and the support in the Bill as it progresses is really, really useful and always championing our Armed Forces constituents.

The hon. Member for Strangford, as always, articulate and to the point. I have spoken to Ministers in Northern Ireland. I've spoken to the Armed Forces Veterans Commissioner about how we make sure the covenant, whilst it is applicable to the whole of the United Kingdom, how it is executed within the devolved administrations, and I am willing to work with you with the hon. Member and the collective group of Northern Ireland MPs, to make sure we can implement it as best as possible, accepting there are nuances with security and how it needs to be implemented as a whole very quickly.



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I thank the Minister. That's an absolutely superb response, Minister. The MPs, obviously the Member for North Antrim and my colleague, the right hon. Member for East Belfast and David Johnson, and obviously the Member for North for South Antrim as well, would be the people, if it's possible to have that meeting and constructively work together to do better for our veterans in Northern Ireland. Thank you so much, Minister.

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Minister. The hon. Member has my word that I will I will continue to engage with him and move that forward. The hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth, there is no Navy without the RFA. It's as simple as that. So well done for pushing that ten minute rule bill and including it in delivering the support to the RFA that is truly needed. The hon. Friend for Morecambe and Lunesdale, thank you for your support of the armed forces. It's consistent and it's super powerful.

So really appreciate it. From Hartlepool. Thank you for the very kind, kind words and importantly, his support. The member's support for veterans is really impressive across the board, but also support for the roll out of what the Member for Leyton and Wanstead continually supporting the covenant and the armed forces as a whole. And the impact on immigration is something we need to look forward to as the covenant rolls out more broadly. And I do agree with him. The removal of the C-130 was a bad thing.

The hon. Member for Bracknell continually supporting the cadet forces and all of the armed forces community is second to none and really, really impressive. And across Uxbridge and South Ruislip, you know, I'd like to thank my hon. Friend for his support for the Armed Forces community and in particular, housing has been impressive throughout. With the first several houses, we saw the rollout of the programme of 1000 houses getting renewed, the sector of state and I were there to see the bad, the good, the bad and the ugly, and it was great to see that we'd landed on the good for so many houses and armed forces personnel within his constituency, and then finally from the member from Colchester, the her support to the Parachute Battalion, 16 Air Assault Brigade and just representing both serving families, serving members, serving families and of course our veterans is second to none.

It's quite simple. From my perspective. The Armed Forces Bill is moving forward in four key areas defence, housing, creating a Defence Housing Service, moving it away from the Defence Infrastructure Organisation, increasing capacity and upskilling the professionalism. As we look at defence housing as a whole, the reserves is all about extending service from 55 to 65 for those individuals and specific roles that can still add value to the military up to that age level. It's also about making the transfer more seamless and standardising the recall from from six years to 18 years consistently across the Army, the Navy and the Air Force.

Better support is about the covenant moving to 3 to 14 government departments and policy areas. It's about us renewing the contract with those that serve. And then finally, it's about better protections. It's about Sexual Risk Orders. It's about domestic abuse protections and orders. It's about stalking protection orders. Indeed, it boils down to the ability of victims to have choice. And since the review in 20 1819, the Lyons Review, we have changed defence significantly when it comes to how we look at serious crime.

We've created the Serious Crime Unit under the last government, it has gone from from a fledgling organisation to a fully upskilled and up gunned ability to deal with the most serious crimes. And it is deeply impressive. So if anybody has any individuals or concerns about how we're dealing with the most serious issues across defence, please come and see myself or the hon. Friend to my left and right and organise a visit, and we will happily deliver that to ensure you can go and visit and see it.

In summary, this bill garners support from all sides of the House. There are areas we will debate for and debate over continually over the next several months, but I do think we're going to get to a really good place that supports our serving armed forces across the Navy, Army and Air Force, our reservists, our service families, our veterans and our armed forces community,

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including all of the charities that support them as well. Thank you, Madam Speaker. The the question is that the

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The the question is that the bill be now read. A second time as many as the

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A second time as many as the that opinion say I of the contrary. No, I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. Programme motion to

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ayes have it. Programme motion to be moved formally. I beg to move. The question is as on the Order

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The question is as on the Order Paper, As many as of that opinion say aye. of the contrary. No, I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. Money resolution to be moved formally.
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Josh Newbury Portrait Josh Newbury MP (Cannock Chase, Labour)
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villages of Cannock Chase. I would like to start by paying immense tribute to the dedicated staff who work in our NHS and social care, from district nurses and general practice, through to care homes and A&E departments. The passion and expertise they bring enriches lives and saves lives. When I was elected, and saves lives. When I was elected, I knew there were many local issues I would need to get to grips with quickly. But amongst many priorities, Urgent healthcare was priorities, Urgent healthcare was one of the very first I knew that I had to campaign on.

It's something that my constituents have raised with me frequently on doorsteps, in emails, at surgeries, and in conversations with local clinicians. It goes right to the heart of whether people feel confident that our NHS will be there for them when they need it, and that our area is well served. Before being elected to serve Cannock Chase, I worked in the NHS myself in communications, not in a clinical role, but that experience is very much stayed with me. It means that I approach debates like this with a great deal of respect for the people working in the system, and with an understanding of just how complex it is.

I know how difficult decisions can be, how stretched staff are, and how long it can take to move from strategy to delivery. But I also know that delay and uncertainty has consequences for patients, for staff morale and for public trust. For my constituents, uncertainty around access to urgent care has become an all too familiar experience. The minor injuries unit at Cannock Chase Hospital was temporarily closed in March 2020, so that staff could be redeployed to the Covid wards at New Cross Hospital.

At the time, that decision was entirely understandable and widely supported. Locally, the NHS was facing an unprecedented emergency and staff stepped up in extraordinary ways to protect lives. At the same time, it was said that this closure was temporary and that the Royal Wolverhampton NHS trust planned to reopen the MCU once the pandemic related workforce pressures eased. But nearly six years on, that temporary closure feels anything but temporary. In fact, two years after the closure in March 2022, there was significant fanfare around the possibility of a reopening that summer.

Many residents understandably took this as a sign of progress, but ultimately nothing came of it. After more than two years of radio silence, in August 2024, the Staffordshire and Stoke on Trent Integrated Care Board announced a wholesale review of urgent care services across the county in light of the new national standards around urgent treatment centres. Whilst the proposals are for other hospitals in Stafford, Burton upon Trent, Lichfield, Tamworth and Stoke on Trent to have their urgent care facilities upgraded to meet these standards.

They also include the permanent closure of Cannock Chase Minor injuries unit, which would effectively end the remaining hope amongst my constituents and others in neighbouring constituencies. To that urgent care will come back to our area. The reasons given included a belief that need from the Cannock Chase area was already being met by other nearby hospitals and above all, a refusal from the Royal Wolverhampton NHS trust to support urgent care provision at Cannock Chase Hospital. They just aren't interested, was a comment made to me by a member of the ICB staff.

The way these proposals were communicated locally was, in my view, very poor and I've been very frank with the ICB on that. The reaction to the people who of the people who did see the ICB document was understandably one of huge concern, particularly amongst older residents, people with chronic conditions and those who can't drive. The ICB only planned in one public engagement event in my constituency, and it was on an afternoon in the weekday, and even that attracted far more people than they'd planned for, although many didn't get to hear about the event.

The room was still packed and very frank views were given on my request. The ICB did hold a second event in an evening and I'm told that was well attended to. We were told that the ICB expected to take its final proposals to health scrutiny at Staffordshire County Council in the spring of last year, with a full public consultation in the summer. If the committee deemed that to be necessary. And yet, months passed without any update. Adding to the uncertainty and frustration locally, now I want to be clear that I'm not standing here to criticise the ICB for the sake of it.

I meet regularly with them and at those meetings we have serious detailed discussions about patient flow, demand, the workforce and outcomes. I understand that good decision making in the NHS takes time, but I also believe that prolonged uncertainty comes at a cost. Every month that passes without clarity leaves patients unsure where to go when they need care, staff unsure what the future holds for their workplace, and communities, feeling that decisions are being made far away rather than reality.

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My hon. Friend give way. Yes, I'll happily give way. I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. I note what he's saying about his integrated care board, and I do have very positive and I do have very positive meetings with them. However, there is a similar situation affecting the town of Rugby that I represent whereby the urgent treatment centre is nurse led and we very much want is nurse led and we very much want there to be a doctor led treatment centre.

And there is a review currently underway, but I and my constituents are merely not simply not aware of the the review's end date. And that really does cause the kind of concern that you are

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talking about around services. The hon. Members. I thank my hon. Friend for his

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I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. And actually, I saw a post that he made on Facebook earlier today, actually, about this very matter. I know that he's fighting very hard on it on behalf of his constituents. And I, I hope as, as I hope, that my integrated as, as I hope, that my integrated care board listens to the concerns of my constituents. I hope that that is reflected also in Coventry that is reflected also in Coventry and Warwickshire, and that he can some get progress on that.

Hopefully doctor led unit. But for the last six years, people in Cannock Chase have had to travel to Stafford, Lichfield Walsall, all walhampton for care that they would once have access locally. That's not simply an inconvenience. It undermines the objectives of urgent care reform. It increases pressure on neighbouring hospitals and it pushes more people into A&E. Exactly the opposite of what the urgent care review itself is supposed to achieve. But most worryingly of all, is those who are not seeking care at all.

Not everybody can drive. Not everyone has access to reliable public transport, particularly in places like Staffordshire. When patients are faced with long, complicated journeys for what should be straightforward local treatment, many simply put it off and then conditions worsen, complications develop, and people ultimately end up needing an ambulance for something that could have been treated earlier, more cheaply and closer to home. At the engagement events and in conversations with me, since, constituents have told me that the MOU was a lifeline when they didn't need A&E but their GP felt they needed to go to hospital, Cannock Chase hospital is very close to a bus station, and most people locally can catch a bus to reach it.

By contrast, travelling by bus to areas in Lichfield, Stafford, Walsall and Wolverhampton can be difficult, often involving multiple changes and long journey times. As a result, many of my constituents are paying for taxis instead, which is a significant financial burden. This issue becomes even clearer when we look at the demographics of my constituency. It has a slightly older population than the national average, with more than 19,500 residents aged 65 and over. Around a fifth of our population, almost half of those older residents, more than 9300 are living with a long term health condition, a higher proportion than we see nationally.

These are the residents who are most likely to need timely, urgent care, who are more vulnerable to deterioration if treatment is delayed, and who often face the greatest barriers when services are not available locally. The NHS is own data shows higher attendances at both surrounding areas since that area's closed, since ours closed, but not by the total amount of previous activity at Cannock Chase Hospital. Backing up what residents have been telling us about not always seeking care, we can also see how these pressures play out in practice at nearby hospitals that many of my constituents rely on when local urgent care isn't available.

Royal Stoke University Hospital, whilst not in my constituency, is is a key part of the wider system and it serves residents from right across our county. In the final quarter of last year alone, the hospital saw more than 33,000 A&E attendances and over 6800 patients waited more than 12 hours to be admitted and discharged. That's more than 1 in 5 attendances, double the national average, and places the hospital

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amongst the most pressured in the country. Yes, absolutely. Madam Deputy Speaker.

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I mean. The Royal Stoke Hospital is in my constituency and one of the things that they tell me is if it things that they tell me is if it wasn't for the Heywood walk in unit up in Stoke on Trent or Leek up in Stoke on Trent or Leek Hospital or Stafford SCU, the A&E would simply fall over because naturally in Staffordshire people naturally in Staffordshire people gravitate to the A&E when they want help and the like. And the fact that my hon.

Friend's constituency is without an urgent treatment centre is something that does have a ripple effect across the county, so I wonder if he will join me potentially asking for the Minister when she is winding up. If there's any data that she has that would demonstrate the impact that the lack of facility in Cannock is having on neighbouring hospitals, and what the impact that is therefore having on the services that are experienced by my constituents and the constituencies

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across the county. I very much thank my hon. Friend and fellow Staffordshire MP for his intervention, and he absolutely intervention, and he absolutely highlights a critical point that every part of our NHS can have a knock on effect for the others, and knock on effect for the others, and the system needs to kind of work as a whole. We can't just focus on individual services, we have to see individual services, we have to see how it works in the round, which is what the review is trying to do.

But of course, many of us feel that it's perhaps not hitting on what it it's perhaps not hitting on what it needs to. And I don't erase these figures to criticise staff who are working under immense strain, or the government, which is making strong progress on addressing those pressures. But simply to underline a simple point when local urgent care is unavailable, demand doesn't disappear, as we've heard it is concentrated elsewhere, making sure patients get the right care in the right place is absolutely critical.

Too many people end up in A&E not because they need to be there, but because there is nowhere else for them to go. Perhaps in the past, our MOU was not always used for its intended purpose, but often even that was a symptom of failings in community care. Now, urgent treatment centres will be a vital part of the fabric of our NHS between primary care and emergency departments. But not having that service for a population of over 100,000 people is a real challenge and it weakens the wider system.

Now, in the 17 months since the review of Urgent Care was unveiled, I've had many conversations with our ICB about urgent care more broadly. As of GP's councillors and campaigners, I know that they are putting in place services that make good on the government's commitment to shift care from hospitals out into the community. So I welcome the introduction of a wound care local enhanced service, which recognises that wound care was previously a key reason for patients accessing the MCU, even though their home is a better place for that care to take place.

This shows that sustained conversations around our local health needs and inequalities are starting to translate into results. I hope that building on this Cannock Chase can be a forerunner in the rollout of multidisciplinary neighbourhood teams. The health inequalities we sadly have locally, coupled with the distance to many secondary care services which I've referred to, means we would benefit hugely from this model of supercharged community care. Better than having to catch a bus to Lichfield or Stafford would be heading to Cannock Chase hospital, but even better still would be getting that care at home.

That's what I am calling for and will continue to fight for on behalf of my constituents. There are areas where Staffordshire is performing strongly. Urgent community response services are exceeding national targets. Winter planning has helped stabilise hospital stays during periods of peak demand, and vaccination programmes are having an impact on admissions too. So this is an argument against reform. It's an argument for consistency and for fairness. If urgent care reform is about reducing avoidable A&E attendance, improving patient flow and ensuring equitable access across the system, and Cannock Chase cannot continue to remain an outlier.

But crucially, this isn't just about rhetoric and the government is making huge strides in the NHS nationally, backed up by reform, by investment and by determination to make sure that people get the right care in the right place at the right time. This is why I welcome the investment already being made into charitable medical practice. Rawnsley surgery and Red lion Surgery in my constituency, which will make a huge difference to people's everyday experiences of the NHS that they can actually see and feel. But strengthening primary care doesn't remove the need for local urgent care.

One simply can't replace the other. So I ask today is a simple and constructive one. I am not asking the Minister to pre-empt the outcome of the review. I know that she cannot do that, and I'm certainly not arguing against the reform of urgent care that prompted this review. What I am calling for is clarity, fairness and alignment between national ambition and local delivery. If we believe in shifting care out of hospitals into communities, if we believe in reducing avoidable A&E attendance, if we believe in equitable access to urgent care, and Cannock Chase must have that as part of its future too.

I hope, too, that 2026 can be the year that sees an expansion of urgent care back into my part of the world, and I'd urge the Royal Wolverhampton NHS trust to make better use of Cannock Chase Hospital, which many residents feel remains underutilised compared with what it was under the former Mid-staffordshire NHS trust. I'd welcome the Minister's assurance that local voices will continue to be properly heard, that decisions will be communicated clearly and promptly, and that the government will work with the Staffordshire and Stoke on Trent ICB to ensure that communities like mine are not left without urgent care provision.

Urgent care, at its simplest, is about whether somebody with a broken wrist, a deep cut or a worsening infection knows where to go and can actually get there. I look forward to continuing to work constructively with the ICB, with the Minister and with colleagues across the House to make sure urgent care in Staffordshire truly works for the communities that we

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all serve. Thank you. Deputy speaker, and it is a pleasure to. Respond to this debate, pleasure to. Respond to this debate, and I'm grateful to my hon. Friend, for securing it and for the constructive way in which he has raised the important matter of raised the important matter of urgent care in Staffordshire. And can I say, it's always good to have more proud NHS non-clinical more proud NHS non-clinical bureaucrats in this place to pursue these issues, because this government is also clear that the government is also clear that the patient should expect, as he says, high standards of care.

And we recognise this has not always been the case in recent years, with too many people waiting too long to access the help they need. But we are determined to change that, and we are taking serious, sustained action to restore timely access to high quality urgent care across the country. Our Urgent Emergency Care Plan for 2526 sets out that clear path to strengthen urgent care outside hospitals so that patients can access timely, appropriate support without needing to attend A&E unless clinically necessary by increasing the number of patients, as he said, treated closer to home.

Scaling up our urgent community response teams, providing rapid two hour care, expanding virtual wards to provide hospital level treatment at home, and growing multidisciplinary neighbourhood teams intervene early and prevent avoidable deterioration. We will support patients to book into the most appropriate urgent care service for them, whether via one,
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Karin Smyth Portrait Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)
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one, one or the NHS app, and we are using data from shared care, patient care records and digital tools to support better triage, join up services and anticipate pressures before they arise. This pressures before they arise. This is backed by £2 billion of investment in NHS digital infrastructure. We are also infrastructure. We are also investing £250 million to strengthen same day emergency care and urgent treatment centre provision, helping treatment centre provision, helping systems across the country avoid unnecessary admissions and support the same day diagnosis, treatment and discharge of patients.

And turning specifically to my hon. Friend's constituency. I know that the work he has done with local NHS to ensure that his constituent voices are heard and in preparing for this debate. Madam Speaker, I also met with the local NHS to understand the situation he describes better. They are taking steps to strengthen urgent care capacity and improve patient pathway in line with the policy outlines that we have made. But I am also aware of the concerns around the closure of this minor injuries unit.

As he said, following the closure during Covid, the ICB undertook a review of whether the service should be reopened and that review concluded that demand previously met by the Minor Injury Unit was being met elsewhere. The NHS in that time has strengthened the wider urgent care offer for local people, including enhanced primary care. He talked about wound care. It's very important to local people. GP out-of-hours services accessed via 111 urgent community response services and access to urgent treatment centres in other locations.

These arrangements ensure that patients can receive timely and appropriate care, but the system is also, as we've set out, developing and he he talked about neighbourhood integrated teams. These will be scaled up delivering more proactive and preventive care to intervene early and reduce avoidable deterioration. And these teams, as he outlined, are central to shifting care out of hospital and to community care support. Urgent treatment centres do play a vital role in this wider urgent care system, providing that timely assessment and treatment for patients whose needs are urgent but not life threatening.

The system is therefore ensuring that there are treatment centres to meet national standards, improving consistency and simplifying simplifying access for the public to help divert activity away from type one emergency departments and ensure more patients receive the right level of care closer to home. And in response to my friend and his neighbour, the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central, I think it is important that the MPs and the Euro do understand that wider movement of capacity and we will make sure that they have that information.

I'm pleased to say that Staffordshire has become the first system in the Midlands to establish a 24/7 integrated care Coordination Centre. This provides a single access point for clinicians, coordinates urgent community services and prevents unnecessary A&E attendances. Nearly half the calls to the service are now successfully redirected away from hospital, helping patients access more help more quickly and easing the pressure that we've heard about on A&E departments. They've also increased capacity in urgent community response services, virtual wards, same day emergency care and intermediate care.

Urgent community response performance is particularly strong, with over 78% referrals seen within two hours, which is well above the national ambition of 70%, and additional clinical resources has been put in place through the winter to meet rising demand and support resilience. This work sits alongside strengthened pathways for people that my hon. Friend outlined, particularly people who might be elderly, who experience falls and who may be frail, needing end of life care, are people in care homes. We need to ensure that those patients are particularly receive that timely and appropriate support.

And I think, as he said, have the confidence that the system, the services there for them in that time of need. Together, these services are helping manage demand on A&E departments, improve patient flow and make best use of the urgent care capacity across Staffordshire, including in Cannock Chase and improvements. Those improvements, as he rightly outlined, must be felt by the people of Cannock Chase and indeed to ensure that demand is well managed and support people across the whole of Staffordshire. As my friend, the member from Stoke on Central also highlighted in terms of the longer term we are planning for the future.

Our ten year health plan sets out that long term vision for urgent and emergency care reform. A central priority is to shift that care, as I've said from hospitals into the community, and this will be driven by continuing the expanded urgent care through urgent Care community response, virtual awards, those rapid access clinics, and better coordination through neighbourhood based care. Our plan is working because in the past 18 months, the government has invested a record £26 billion in NHS delivered over 5 million additional appointments, cut waiting lists by 312,000, and launched the ten year health plan to deliver more care in the community.

We know there is more to do, but our investment and modernisation are making a difference and the NHS is showing those clear signs of recovery. And thanks to these steps this winter, ambulances are arriving faster, A and E waits are shorter and more patients are being treated closer to home. And in closing, I want to add my comments to my the hon. Member for Cannock Chase to pay tribute to the NHS staff across Staffordshire and across the country. Those doctors, nurses, paramedics, healthcare assistants and support staff continue to show exceptional commitment, often in the most challenging circumstances, and they do deserve our thanks and support.

We know the NHS is under pressure, but this government is taking decisive action through our urgent and emergency care plan, our winter preparations and our long term reforms. Through those, we are putting the service back on its feet and ensuring patients receive timely, high quality care. As we make the NHS fit for the future, making the changes we need to move care out of hospital into communities, making that switch from analogue to digital and from sickness to prevention. We have to communicate better with patients and the public, as he has clearly outlined this evening, and that includes keeping MPs such as the hon.

Member who has brought forward this debate from Cannock Chase.

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Well informed of those proposals. I do thank the Minister for giving way. I just briefly wanted to highlight the fact that one of the perverse things we have in Staffordshire is my own constituency is serviced by the constituency is serviced by the Royal Stoke Hospital, as is Stafford, which is headquartered within the ICB that funds it. Some within the ICB that funds it. Some of the places that the Minister has mentioned this evening Cannock and Burton and Tamworth there, their hospitals are actually smaller hospitals linked to a much larger acute hospital in a trust that is headquartered outside the ICB.

This is a perversity for cross-border invoicing and also does sometimes make us wonder what the incentive is for some of those trusts. Is that something potentially in the future, we could meet as a group of

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MPs to discuss with the Minister. Well, my hon. Friend was one of the first through the door when I the first through the door when I became the Minister to share with me some of those issues around the me some of those issues around the issues around Stoke. And so when I met with the system today, with my map in front of me, to point out map in front of me, to point out exactly some of the journey times for this issue, his comments were for this issue, his comments were in my mind, and I absolutely.

As I said, I think it's really important as we move the system as is recognised on the best clinical evidence that we do take local people with us. And for me, that does include making sure that MPs are well informed of the proposal and the rationale. And as as we've heard today, MPs are willing to be very constructive advocates on behalf of their constituents with local systems. And I do welcome that engagement members on this issue. And I'm very happy to continue working with my hon.

Friend and with other and other colleagues in Staffordshire and with NHS leaders on how we can further strengthen those emergency

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care services for people in Cannock Chase and indeed across Staffordshire. The question is that this House

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The question is that this House do now adjourn. As many as of that do now adjourn. As many as of that opinion say aye. I the ayes have it.
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