All 48 Parliamentary debates on 6th Feb 2019

Wed 6th Feb 2019
Wed 6th Feb 2019
Wed 6th Feb 2019
Wed 6th Feb 2019
Prostate Cancer
Commons Chamber
(Adjournment Debate)
Wed 6th Feb 2019
Wed 6th Feb 2019
Offensive Weapons Bill
Grand Committee

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wed 6th Feb 2019

House of Commons

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
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Wednesday 6 February 2019
The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock

Prayers

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
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Prayers mark the daily opening of Parliament. The occassion is used by MPs to reserve seats in the Commons Chamber with 'prayer cards'. Prayers are not televised on the official feed.

This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Oral Answers to Questions

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
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The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster was asked—
Chris Green Portrait Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)
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1. What steps he is taking to encourage the use of innovative technologies to improve the delivery of public services.

Oliver Dowden Portrait The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Oliver Dowden)
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Last month I announced five new public sector challenges, to be funded from the £20 million GovTech innovation fund. In the spring we will publish a strategy for the use of innovation in public services.

Chris Green Portrait Chris Green
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Can my hon. Friend confirm that the GovTech fund is being used to identify technologies with the potential to improve medical care and deliver better services at a lower cost?

Oliver Dowden Portrait Oliver Dowden
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I am delighted to confirm that to my hon. Friend. There is huge potential here for improvement in public services. So far the GovTech Catalyst has funded two health-related challenges: the first seeks to improve the medication pathway for people entering custody, and the second will assess how machine learning could improve prediction and provision in relation to adult social care.

Luke Pollard Portrait Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/Co-op)
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At the weekend, 70 Labour MPs and Members of the European Parliament signed my letter to the Government asking them to review the operation of the EU settled status app for EU citizens, which is currently available only on Android phones and not on iPhones. What advice does the Cabinet Office gives other Departments to ensure that no digital discrimination is embedded in the new technologies that the Government are rolling out?

Oliver Dowden Portrait Oliver Dowden
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The hon. Gentleman is right to raise the question of the digital verification system. It is perfectly possible to subscribe to it with any phone. The issue relates to the document verification, which can be carried out in respect of Android phones but not, currently, in respect of Apple phones. However, the Home Office is working on that as we speak.

Scott Mann Portrait Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con)
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I know the Minister will be aware that delivering public services in rural areas is particularly challenging. Will he consider how he could use tech and innovation to facilitate better public services in areas such as those that I represent?

Oliver Dowden Portrait Oliver Dowden
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My hon. Friend is absolutely right. One of the great aspects of the GovTech challenge fund is that it is often used in rural areas. In rural Scotland, for example, we are looking into how it could be used to help to ensure that the environment is properly managed, and we are working on other similar schemes.

Jamie Stone Portrait Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
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Time and again, Mr Speaker, you have heard me raise the issue of deeply unsatisfactory broadband coverage in my constituency, which greatly impairs the delivery of vital public services. Responding to a question that I asked not long ago, the Prime Minister mentioned the shared prosperity fund. Might that fund be used to tackle the problem of very poor broadband coverage? If the Minister cannot give me an answer now, will he agree to meet me to discuss the issue?

Oliver Dowden Portrait Oliver Dowden
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I am always happy to meet all Members, and I have heard the hon. Gentleman’s representation in respect of the shared prosperity fund. Our industrial strategy has already committed us to spending more than £1 billion on digital infrastructure, including £176 million on 5G and £200 million on broadband for local areas. There is, I know, an issue with the Scottish National party Government getting the money to the frontline, which is why my right hon. Friend the Culture Secretary has announced that in future, money will go directly to councils.

Jo Platt Portrait Jo Platt (Leigh) (Lab/Co-op)
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When it comes to the delivery of technology with the use of public money, we know whose side the Government are on: their mates in the megafirms. Their spending on Cloud provision with just one company, Amazon Web Services, has increased by 8,000% since 2015. The next time the Minister signs off another multimillion-pound tech contract, will he perhaps spare a thought for one of the UK’s incredible small and medium-sized enterprises?

Oliver Dowden Portrait Oliver Dowden
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The Government are committed to ensuring that SMEs win their fair share of Government contracts. Unlike the Labour Government, this Government have set the target of devoting a third of all spending to SMEs. However, the hon. Lady rightly raised the issue of Amazon Web Services. Let us look at the figures. AWS is a G-Cloud supplier. A total of £3.2 billion has been spent on G-Cloud. How much has been spent on AWS? Just £70 million, which amounts to less than 2.2% of total spending.

Mohammad Yasin Portrait Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab)
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2. What recent progress his Department has made on its proposed changes to public sector procurement.

Oliver Dowden Portrait Oliver Dowden
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We are determined to deliver value for money for taxpayers through better procurement, and to support a healthy and diverse supply market. We recently announced measures including simplifying procurement processes, taking account of social value when awarding contracts, and excluding large suppliers from Government contracts if they cannot demonstrate prompt payment.

Mohammad Yasin Portrait Mohammad Yasin
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I thank the Minister for his answer. The number of businesses receiving late payments from the Cabinet Office has nearly tripled in the past two years. Does the Minister agree that this makes a mockery of the Government’s plans to crack down on public sector suppliers who pay late?

Oliver Dowden Portrait Oliver Dowden
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Prompt payment is important to all businesses, particularly small businesses. That is why we have set a target for 90% of undisputed invoices from small and medium-sized enterprises to be paid within five days. We are making good progress, and six Departments are already exceeding that target. I know that there has been an issue in respect of the Cabinet Office, but I can give the hon. Gentleman the latest figures, from December, which show that 95% of invoices are now meeting the 30-day target and that 82% are meeting the five-day target.

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con)
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Will the Minister join me in welcoming moves to roll over the WTO Agreement on Government Procurement—the GPA—and in welcoming the access that that would give to UK companies competing abroad and the opening up of our own markets to foreign competitors?

Oliver Dowden Portrait Oliver Dowden
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I know that my right hon. Friend has a great deal of experience in this area, and he is absolutely right to highlight the importance of the GPA. I am pleased that we have made progress and reached agreement in principle for the United Kingdom to join the GPA, and I am confident that we will have that in place shortly.

Barry Sheerman Portrait Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
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Is not the Minister guilty of a bit of jiggery-pokery? [Hon. Members: “Oh!”] The fact of the matter is that if the Government looked at good examples such as Huddersfield University and Kirklees Council, they would see the way in which they emphasise local and regional procurement, which brings in jobs and wealth and retains them in our communities. Why do this Government not do the same?

Oliver Dowden Portrait Oliver Dowden
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We are absolutely committed to ensuring that we get the very best suppliers, which is why we have introduced a balanced scorecard approach. That allows suppliers to take into account a wide range of factors, including environmental factors and factors relating to the quality of produce. Those are the sort of reforms that this Government are committed to introducing.

James Gray Portrait James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
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The Government give a very welcome emphasis to the employing of small and medium-sized enterprises in Government contracts, and that is very good stuff, but does the Minister not agree that in reality, Government procurement processes are so complex, so difficult, so massive and so expensive that it is actually companies such as the defence primes that get the contracts and then hammer down the prices they pay to their subcontractors? How can we find better ways to ensure that SMEs win some of those valuable contracts?

Oliver Dowden Portrait Oliver Dowden
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My hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight the issue of SMEs winning contracts. This is why we have abolished complex pre-qualification questionnaires on small-value contracts, for example, and in November I announced that if major strategic suppliers were not paying their small providers on time, they could face being excluded from Government contracts.

Tommy Sheppard Portrait Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)
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I am aware that current statute means that wage rates cannot be mandated, but it is possible to use the procurement process to encourage employers to consider paying the real living wage in the context of fair work policies. Indeed, that is the process undertaken by the Scottish Government. Will the Minister consider following Scotland’s lead and using procurement to ensure that employers pay the real living wage?

Oliver Dowden Portrait Oliver Dowden
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I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. I hope that he will acknowledge the progress that this Government have made in introducing a national living wage for the first time. The effect of that national living wage, which will rise by almost 5% this April, is that an average person working full time on the national living wage will be almost £3,000 a year better off—and that is not counting the massive increase in the personal allowance that also cuts their taxes.

Christian Matheson Portrait Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)
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Of course, it is not a living wage; it is just a minimum wage re-badged.

The Government have repeatedly insisted that Interserve’s

“current intentions are a matter for the company itself.”

However, it emerged last night that Cabinet Office officials were playing an active role in talks to negotiate a rescue package. It seems that the Government cannot make up their mind whether they have a responsibility to intervene and protect public services and jobs or whether to let the market decide, so which is it?

Oliver Dowden Portrait Oliver Dowden
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The Government are absolutely clear that their principal task is to ensure the continued delivery of public services, and that is what we have ensured in respect of our strategic suppliers. The hon. Gentleman raises the case of Interserve. I welcome this morning’s announcement, which I am sure he has seen, which demonstrates that it is making good progress towards refinancing, but we are clear that that is a matter between the lenders to that company and the company itself. The Government are not a party to those negotiations.

Daniel Zeichner Portrait Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)
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3. What assessment he has made of the implications for his Department's policies of the Information Commissioner’s January 2019 report, “Outsourcing oversight? The case for reforming access to information law”.

Chloe Smith Portrait The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Chloe Smith)
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The Government are fully committed to transparency and openness across the public sector and have already introduced a range of measures to increase transparency in contracts. That means that we are publishing more data than ever before to the benefit of taxpayers. I am grateful for the Information Commissioner’s report, which we will consider carefully, but we have no plans at present to legislate further in this area.

Daniel Zeichner Portrait Daniel Zeichner
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I am grateful to the Minister for that reply but, as the Information Commissioner tells us, the Government spend £284 billion a year on external suppliers that are currently beyond the scope of freedom of information laws. The Information Commissioner tells us that that would have made a difference at both Grenfell and Carillion, so why will the Government not commit to real transparency and adopt the Information Commissioner’s recommendations?

Chloe Smith Portrait Chloe Smith
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My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster set out an important package of measures last year to improve transparency in contracting. However, I do not think there is evidence that the collapse of Carillion could have been anticipated by the reforms in the report. Indeed, the relevant Select Committees said that Carillion’s directors were responsible, not the Government.

Matthew Offord Portrait Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
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4. What assessment he has made of trends in the level of intimidation faced by those in public life.

Brandon Lewis Portrait The Minister without Portfolio (Brandon Lewis)
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The increasing prevalence of intimidation in public life can seriously damage our democracy, which is why the Government have consulted on a new electoral offence of intimidating candidates and campaigners. We are currently analysing the contributions to the consultation, with a response due to be published soon.

Matthew Offord Portrait Dr Offord
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What progress is the Department making with online platform providers to ensure that they develop and implement automated techniques for content removal and address take-down times for offensive material?

Brandon Lewis Portrait Brandon Lewis
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My hon. Friend makes a good point that he has made strongly before, which is to his huge credit. We have been clear that much more needs to be done to tackle online harm. Too often, online behaviour fails to meet acceptable standards, with many users powerless to address such issues. A joint Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport and Home Office White Paper is expected to be published in the near future and will set out legislative and non-legislative measures detailing how we can tackle online harm and set clear responsibilities for tech companies to keep UK citizens safe. We want to ensure that we do that in a fair and proper way.

Anna Turley Portrait Anna Turley (Redcar) (Lab/Co-op)
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10. Are the Government looking at the effects of social media intimidation on our democracy? A wide number of pieces on social media, involving both misuse of data and funding of unclear origin, are intimidating and influencing political debate in this country.

Brandon Lewis Portrait Brandon Lewis
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The hon. Lady makes a good point. We are looking at exactly that, because we must ensure that people have a clear view of what is true, fair and appropriate online.

Peter Bone Portrait Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
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Someone came to my surgery this week and clearly made an implied threat to me, a number of Members of this House and a former Prime Minister. However, if I report any of that, I am breaching the confidentiality of the person who came to see me, so I want to know the Minister’s advice.

Brandon Lewis Portrait Brandon Lewis
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I do not think that my hon. Friend would have been breaching confidentiality, because if such conversations are happening, that represents a threat that he would be well within his rights to report to the police.

Gregory Campbell Portrait Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
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I have been subjected to online intimidation. Does the Minister agree that we need to drive home the message that the secrecy of the iPhone or keyboard is not protection enough for people to spew vile, intimidatory statements and messages to anybody in public life?

Brandon Lewis Portrait Brandon Lewis
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The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. All of us in public life should call out such things when we see them. We must be clear about what is unacceptable and report it to the authorities where appropriate, so that people feel able to engage online in a proper and fair way without intimidation or abuse.

Simon Clarke Portrait Mr Simon Clarke (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Con)
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5. What steps he has taken to review how different tiers of Government work together.

Paul Girvan Portrait Paul Girvan (South Antrim) (DUP)
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9. What steps he has taken to review how different tiers of Government work together.

David Lidington Portrait The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office (Mr David Lidington)
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We are committed to working productively with all levels of government, including local authorities, directly elected Mayors and devolved Administrations across the UK. We will also work closely with the devolved Administrations to review the formal structure of inter-governmental relations.

Simon Clarke Portrait Mr Clarke
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People across the Tees Valley are delighted at the devolution model led by Ben Houchen, our excellent Conservative Mayor. Ben is delivering on his manifesto promises, which included rescuing Teesside airport and leading the regeneration of the steelworks. Will my right hon. Friend commit the Government to maintaining their excellent record of support for Ben’s work in getting Teesside on the front foot again?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
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I pay tribute to the leadership that Ben Houchen and his colleagues on the Tees Valley combined authority have shown. They have very ambitious plans, and we look forward to continuing our joint working with them on a local industrial strategy to drive productivity, growth and employment in the Teesside region.

Paul Girvan Portrait Paul Girvan
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In light of there being no Executive in Northern Ireland, what measures are being taken to ensure services can be delivered for Northern Ireland? Especially within the public sector, we have had difficulty in getting decisions across the line. We need ministerial intervention.

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
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As the hon. Gentleman knows, Parliament agreed to change the law late last year to give Ministers in the Northern Ireland Office greater powers in giving directions to the Northern Ireland civil service, but the answer is for the political parties in Northern Ireland to come together so that we can see the Executive and the Assembly restored. That is the way to give effective representation for effective decisions to be taken.

Bernard Jenkin Portrait Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
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My right hon. Friend will be aware that there is no formal machinery for the Parliaments of the United Kingdom to work together and to scrutinise the work of the Joint Ministerial Committee and the Executive functions that work together. The Interparliamentary Forum on Brexit again met in January and called for this. Will he support this Parliament and provide it with the necessary resources so we can institute proper interparliamentary machinery in the United Kingdom?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
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We are very open to proposals from my hon. Friend’s Committee and from others in this House and the House of Lords. We are working together with the devolved Parliaments and Assemblies. If Parliament will lead, the Government will support it.

Lucy Powell Portrait Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)
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7. One way in which the Government are coming together across Departments is through the Leader of the House’s working group on the early years, which is supported by the right hon. Gentleman’s Department. Will he ensure that that review remains ambitious and radical in its proposals and does not become a victim of departmental-itis?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
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Having spoken to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House about this on a number of occasions, I do not think anybody can doubt her determination to ensure that this issue is given proper priority. I expect proposals from that group later this year.

Bill Grant Portrait Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con)
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6. What recent discussions he has had with the Scottish Government on the devolution of power to local authorities.

David Lidington Portrait The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office (Mr David Lidington)
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The Smith Commission was clear that the Scottish Government should work with the Scottish Parliament, civic Scotland and local authorities to develop ways in which greater devolution within Scotland could be provided.

Bill Grant Portrait Bill Grant
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I thank my right hon. Friend for that response. Does he agree that local authorities are best placed to deliver local services, rather than taking a centralised approach?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
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I think that that is right. For example, it will be very important to involve local authorities in my hon. Friend’s constituency and in neighbouring constituencies in taking forward our ambitious proposals for an Ayrshire growth deal.

Nigel Evans Portrait Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con)
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8. Whether his Department plans to conduct further voter ID pilots; and if he will make a statement.

Chloe Smith Portrait The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Chloe Smith)
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A diverse range of local authorities have confirmed that they will be taking part in the voter ID and postal vote pilots for the 2019 local elections. These pilots will provide further insight into ensuring security of the voting process.

Nigel Evans Portrait Mr Evans
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I know different local authorities are using different methods as to what constitutes ID, but does the Minister believe enough progress will be made so that, should this Parliament go the full five years, we will have voter ID available at the next general election?

Chloe Smith Portrait Chloe Smith
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Yes, I do. I am grateful to the authorities that are piloting voter ID this year. Their experience will help us to formulate the right policy to roll it out nationally.

John Bercow Portrait Mr Speaker
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Let me say to the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) that the Cumbrian steak and kidney pie, the merits of which he commended to me, was of the highest quality.

Tim Farron Portrait Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
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Mr Speaker, I am incredibly grateful to you for those kind words and for coming along to Cumbria Day.

Is the Minister aware that voters in my constituency, the Lake District and the Yorkshire Dales cannot vote at all on planning and housing issues that affect them? What steps will she take to bring in democracy for those parts of our country that are under the aegis of a national park, which are not directly elected?

Chloe Smith Portrait Chloe Smith
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I am somewhat familiar with the issue because of my proximity to the Broads Authority in my constituency, but I suspect this question may be for a colleague to answer and I will ask them to do so.

Topical Questions

Mark Hendrick Portrait Sir Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op)
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T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

David Lidington Portrait The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office (Mr David Lidington)
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Last week, I announced new measures, as part of the follow-up action to the Government’s racial disparity audit, to improve outcomes for ethnic minority students in higher education; to ensure league tables reflect performance in addressing inequalities; and to encourage higher education providers to make their workforces more diverse.

Mark Hendrick Portrait Sir Mark Hendrick
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Some 16% of the adult population of this country has some form of disability, yet when I look around this House, I see very few Members with a disability. When are we going to see an effective Access to Elected Office Fund? We need a Parliament that is representative of the public it serves. When are we going to be like that?

Chloe Smith Portrait The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Chloe Smith)
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I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman raises this issue. He is right to say that we need to raise that level of participation. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Women and Equalities is working on a fund that will help that to happen. Furthermore, a statutory instrument will be before the House next Monday that will help with this by addressing election expenses.

James Cleverly Portrait James Cleverly (Braintree) (Con)
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T7. Members discharge their duties in a variety of ways, but does my hon. Friend agree that it is not possible to discharge them properly from inside a prison cell? When will the hon. Member for Peterborough (Fiona Onasanya) do the right thing, stand down and give the people of that part of the country the representation they deserve?

Chloe Smith Portrait Chloe Smith
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My hon. Friend makes a fair point, and it comes down to what the people of Peterborough need: a hard-working and present local MP. Of course we have passed legislation in this place to enable recall. I suspect that may be used in this case, but I hope it will happen promptly, for the sake of the people of Peterborough.

Cat Smith Portrait Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab)
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Let us consider these figures: 25,342 and 21,900. Those were the number of voters who cast their votes for me and for the Minister to serve as elected parliamentarians, yet just 100-odd votes secured a win in the most recent hereditary peer by-election in the other place. The winner was eligible to stand because his great-grandad’s cousin’s dad’s fourth cousin’s dad’s cousin’s great-great-great grandad was made a Lord by Charles I in 1628. What progress is the Minister making on reform of the other place?

Chloe Smith Portrait Chloe Smith
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May I first welcome the hon. Lady back to the Dispatch Box? It is a pleasure to see her here again. Two points need to be made: first, the legislation she cites was that of her own party; and. secondly, reform of the House of Lords is not a priority for this Government. We have been clear on that matter and I can be so again today.

Kirstene Hair Portrait Kirstene Hair (Angus) (Con)
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What conversations is the Department having with local authorities in Scotland and the Scottish Government about relocating civil service jobs north of the border, specifically in areas such as international trade?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
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The Government have a policy of seeking to relocate Government offices and agencies outside London wherever possible. We are keen to work with Scottish local authorities, as well as local authorities from all around the United Kingdom, to secure that objective.

Bambos Charalambous Portrait Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab)
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T2. The Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy reported last year that it was concerned that “the current complex arrangements for ministerial responsibility mean that day-to-day oversight of cross-government efforts is, in reality, led by officials, with Ministers only occasionally ‘checking in’.”Do the Government have a grip on cyber-security?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
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Yes. It is right that different elements of cyber-security report in to different Departments. For example, where this relates to an offensive cyber-capability, as part of our defences, that is rightly part of the Ministry of Defence’s responsibility. The relevant Ministers do co-operate regularly, and I assure the hon. Gentleman that this all reports back to the National Security Council where the relevant Cabinet Ministers take the decisions.

Tim Loughton Portrait Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
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On the inter-ministerial early years working group, which is an excellent initiative, is the Minister aware that the cost of child neglect is estimated at some £15 billion per year? So when negotiating with the Treasury, will he be mindful that funding for this is not only the best way of giving kids the best start in life, but a good way of saving money?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
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I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will be very glad of my hon. Friend’s support.

Rupa Huq Portrait Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab)
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What with the £1 billion-plus of Northern Ireland contributions secured by the Democratic Unionist party, the knighthoods for the European Research Group, and now the cash-for-votes inducements that we hear are being offered to MPs, are the Government not a bit worried about sailing dangerously close to the wind of the Labour-introduced Bribery Act 2010? Will the Minister reaffirm that no votes in this place should be for sale? Especially not mine; I have not been offered anything.

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am deeply shocked that the hon. Lady has so little confidence in her own colleagues as to think that they would be capable of that.

Nigel Huddleston Portrait Nigel Huddleston (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)
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Some of my most engaged constituents are expats who currently reside in France or Spain. Does the Minister agree that it is unfair and undemocratic to deny these British citizens the right to vote after an arbitrary 15 years?

Chloe Smith Portrait Chloe Smith
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes, I do, which is why we support the private Member’s Bill promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), which will redress that injustice and deliver votes for life.

Paul Girvan Portrait Paul Girvan  (South Antrim)  (DUP)
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T4. Northern Ireland has required voter ID for 13 years. Why is it necessary to run a pilot programme when we have already evaluated it and found that it works effectively and has not affected voter turnout?

Chloe Smith Portrait Chloe Smith
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s support on this matter. We should see such support throughout the House for a set of measures that are reasonable, proportionate and already used in countries around the world and in our own country, the United Kingdom, to help to protect voters and ensure that their vote is theirs alone.

The Prime Minister was asked—
Andrew Bridgen Portrait Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
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Q1. If she will list her official engagements for Wednesday 6 February.

None Portrait Hon. Members
- Hansard -

More!

John Bercow Portrait Mr Speaker
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The right hon. Gentleman is a notable celebrity, not only in Aylesbury but here in this House.

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I have been asked to reply, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is in Northern Ireland outlining the Government’s commitment to the people there and our plan to secure a Brexit deal that delivers on the result of the referendum.

I am sure that the whole House will want to join me in welcoming today’s announcement that the next meeting of NATO Heads of State and Government will take place in London in December 2019. This is fitting, as 70 years ago this year, the United Kingdom, led by those Atlanticist champions Clement Attlee and Ernie Bevin, was one of the alliance’s 12 founding members and London was home to the first NATO headquarters. We will continue to play a key role in NATO as it continues its mission of keeping nearly 1 billion people safe.

Andrew Bridgen Portrait Andrew Bridgen
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I have always considered the Leader of the Opposition to be just an unreconstructed Marxist. However, in the light of video footage that has emerged this week, I may well have to change that view. He clearly campaigned vigorously against repeated EU referendums in Ireland, and he declared forcefully that he did not wish to live under a

“European empire of the 21st century”.

In the spirit of cross-party consensus, will my right hon. Friend join the Leader of the Opposition and dismiss once and for all any prospect of a second EU referendum and reaffirm that we are leaving on 29 March?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Government’s position is clear. We said to the British people in 2016 that we would accept their vote as decisive. The duty of politicians is to implement the result of the referendum and not to suggest that the public got it wrong and, I think, undermine trust in democracy.

None Portrait Several hon. Members rose—
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John Bercow Portrait Mr Speaker
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The right hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) is a notable celebrity, not merely in Islington but here in this House.

Emily Thornberry Portrait Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)
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Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am so glad to renew my acquaintance with the Minister for the Cabinet Office, or, as the newspapers always call him, “effectively the Deputy Prime Minister”—surely the only occasion these days when the words “Prime Minister” and “effective” are used in the same sentence.

Although there are many other important issues that I would like to discuss with the Minister for the Cabinet Office today, sadly none is more vital or urgent than Brexit, so I would like to use our time to have a sensible, grown-up discussion about what the actual plan is between now and 29 March. To that end, I ask him this: if the briefing is correct that there will not be a fresh meaningful vote on the withdrawal agreement next week, when will that vote take place?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I think that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was completely clear on that at this Dispatch Box last week. She said that the meaningful vote itself would be brought back as soon as possible, and if it were not possible to bring it back by the 13th, next Wednesday, the Government would then make a statement and table a motion for debate the next day.

Emily Thornberry Portrait Emily Thornberry
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Minister for his answer. I take from that and from other briefings that the time for a fresh vote will be after the Prime Minister has secured what she called last week

“a significant and legally binding change”—[Official Report, 29 January 2019; Vol. 653, c. 679.]

to the withdrawal agreement so that this House has something genuinely different on which to vote. If that is the case, will the Minister simply clarify what will happen if we start to approach 29 March and that significant and legally binding change has not been achieved?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Prime Minister, as has been announced by No. 10, will be in Brussels tomorrow where she will be seeing President Juncker, President Tusk and the President of the European Parliament, Mr Tajani, to discuss the changes that she is seeking following the recent votes in this House both to reject the deal that was on the table and to support the amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West (Sir Graham Brady). I do think that the right hon. Lady needs not just, perfectly fairly, to question the Government, but to face up to the fact that if, as both she and I wish, we are to leave the EU in an orderly manner with a deal, it requires this House to vote in favour of a deal and not just to declare that it does not want a no-deal scenario.

Emily Thornberry Portrait Emily Thornberry
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Again, I thank the Minister. Does the Prime Minister seriously think that she will get anything different from the responses that we have heard from the EU over recent days? None of them has given us any encouragement that the EU is willing to reopen the withdrawal agreement unless the Prime Minister is willing to reconsider the red lines on which the agreement is based. Does he not agree that the sensible, cautious thing to do at this late stage is to seek a temporary extension of article 50 so that we have time to see whether the negotiations succeed, or, if they do not, to pursue a different plan?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
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The problem with the right hon. Lady’s proposition is that it would simply defer the need for this House, which includes the Opposition Front Bench team, to face up to some difficult decisions. She has criticised the approach that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has taken, but I have to put it to her that, last week, the Leader of the Opposition, having met the Prime Minister, went out in front of the cameras and demanded changes to the backstop as part of the approach that he wanted to see for the future. The right hon. Lady has said that she would be comfortable with the backstop. Does she agree with her leader, or is she sticking to her guns on this?

Emily Thornberry Portrait Emily Thornberry
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I hear what the Minister says, but he does not seem to give us any answers. I genuinely appreciate his attempts, but I hope that he will understand the concern that all of us have, not just in this House, but across the country, that we have a Government treading water in the Niagara River while the current is taking us over the falls. [Interruption.]

John Bercow Portrait Mr Speaker
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Order, be quiet. The Whip on duty, the right hon. Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher), has no useful contribution to make other than to nod and shake his head in the appropriate places. No chuntering from a sedentary position from him is required or will persist.

Emily Thornberry Portrait Emily Thornberry
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Can we go back to the central issue: there is no way that we can avoid a border in Ireland after Brexit without a full customs union, or a permanent backstop, or some new technological solution. Will the Minister tell us which of those options the Government are currently working towards?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The right hon. Lady again makes this commitment, saying that the Labour party wants to see a permanent customs union, but most people who support a customs union say that they want to ensure that businesses can expect to export to the EU without tariffs, quotas or rules of origin checks. That is precisely what the Prime Minister’s deal does, and it also allows this country to establish trade agreements with other nations around the world, so what part of that deal does the right hon. Lady actually object to?

Emily Thornberry Portrait Emily Thornberry
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

If the right hon. Gentleman would like me to answer questions, I would be quite happy to hold a seminar for him at another stage regarding what a proper Brexit ought to look like, but let me continue with my job, and perhaps he can continue with his and answer some questions. The technological solution is a non-starter. A permanent backstop will never be acceptable to the European Research Group or the Democratic Unionist party, and the only solution that will actually work is a full customs union. That is what I said at our first encounter here in 2016. It is the answer that is staring the Government in the face. If they backed it, it would command a majority in this House. It would avoid the mayhem and chaos of no deal, and protect the jobs at Nissan, Airbus and elsewhere that are currently at grave risk, so can the Minister explain why the Prime Minister is so dead against it?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Even if we did take the right hon. Lady’s somewhat ill-defined description of a permanent customs union, it would not address issues in respect of Northern Ireland and Ireland regarding regulatory standards for industrial goods or phytosanitary checks for foodstuffs and livestock. Even in her own terms, her answer is inadequate. The right hon. Lady may well then go on to say that she also wants to be part of a single market. Indeed, she has said that she would be happy with the same position as Norway, but that means the continuation of free movement and her party’s manifesto explicitly said that free movement would stop, so is the right hon. Lady supporting a Norway model or is she supporting the Labour party’s manifesto?

Emily Thornberry Portrait Emily Thornberry
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Flattered though I am that the Minister feels it necessary to ask me questions, it is important to make it clear that the reason that I have asked these questions today is that the Minister for the Cabinet Office understands Europe, Northern Ireland and Brexit probably better than any of his Cabinet colleagues. If anyone from the Government could give us answers, it would be him. But the truth is that there are no answers. Plan A has been resoundingly rejected by Parliament, plan B was ruled out by the EU months ago, and the Government are in danger of sleepwalking the country towards leaving with no plan and no deal at all. With just over 50 days to go, may I give the Minister a final opportunity to tell us whether there is a better plan than this—or, for goodness’ sake, will they let Parliament take charge instead?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
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As I said earlier, the Prime Minister will be reporting back to this House next week following her discussions in Brussels and elsewhere. I have to say to the right hon. Lady that the two-year deadline—the 29 March deadline—stems from European law and the wording of article 50, which lays down the two years. As I recall, the right hon. Lady voted in favour of triggering article 50; perhaps it was one of those votes where she was present but not involved. If she and her Front Bench are worried about no deal, they have to vote for a deal. Every time they vote against a deal, the risk of no deal becomes greater. It really is time for the Opposition Front Bench, for once, to put the national interest first, do the right thing and vote for a deal.

Robert Halfon Portrait Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
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Q5. Last Friday, the Health Secretary made a superb visit to Princess Alexandra Hospital in Harlow, where he met inspirational staff doing outstanding work for patients. However, our hospital is crumbling. Sewage is coming into the operating theatres and our infrastructure is failing. Will my right hon. Friend lobby the Treasury to ensure that we get capital funding so that Harlow can get the new hospital that we desperately need?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My right hon. Friend the Health Secretary was very impressed by what he saw on his visit to Harlow, and I know that my right hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) will remain a very ardent champion of the need for renewal of those hospital facilities. He knows that as part of the Government’s long-term plan for the NHS, NHS England will make decisions about its capital investments for the future, and I am sure that he will drive his case home with it.

Ian Blackford Portrait Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP)
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I welcome the Minister to his place.

While the chaos of the UK Government’s shambolic Brexit negotiations has dominated the headlines, this Government have sneaked through a cut in pension credit that will see some couples up to £7,000 a year worse off. An estimated 300,000 more pensioners are now living in poverty than in 2012. Does the Minister agree that his Government need to change course and, instead of robbing pensioners, start supporting them?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
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I think that the right hon. Gentleman is talking about the situation of mixed-age couples with one person over pensionable age and receiving a pension and the other of working age. What the Government have done—indeed, what this House voted for some years ago—is perfectly logical and in line with the intention of the benefits system.

Ian Blackford Portrait Ian Blackford
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We certainly did not vote for that. What we have seen from this Government is that they continue to put their hands into the pockets of the poorest in our society. In fact, this Tory Government are allowing a proposal to take free TV licences from pensioners. It is this Conservative Government who are denying women born in the 1950s their full rights to state pensions. It is this Tory Government who preside over the lowest state pension in any developed country—quite shameful. Pensioner poverty is not a myth; it is a reality. With Scottish pensioners being short-changed by the UK Government, the Minister must agree that the only way to end pensioner poverty in Scotland is to put fairness back into our pension system and give older people the dignity that they deserve in retirement— for pension reform to be taken on by the Scottish Government in an independent Scotland, where we take our responsibilities seriously.

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The right hon. Gentleman has some nerve here. He knows that it is in the power of the Scottish Government, under devolution legislation, to top up social security benefits if they choose to do so. He knows—[Interruption.]

John Bercow Portrait Mr Speaker
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Order. There is a lot of wild gesticulation and very animated expressions, and people looking at me pleadingly. It is very difficult to hear what is being said. I was trying to listen to the erudition of the Minister, but there is too much noise—let’s hear the fella.

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The right hon. Gentleman knows that he and his party have voted against this Government’s Budgets even though those Budgets have reduced tax upon the lowest-paid in every part of the United Kingdom. He knows that the budget set by the SNP in the Scottish Parliament last week has led to Scots being more highly taxed than people in any other part of the United Kingdom —and that in a year when the Scottish Government’s block grant as a result of the Chancellor’s Budget decisions was increased by £950 million. The SNP has squandered that Union dividend. The message that we get is that if you have an SNP Government, Scottish people pay more and get less.

Julian Knight Portrait Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con)
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Q9. Citizens Advice in Solihull has been a cornerstone of my community for over four decades. Does my right hon. Friend share my dismay at the fact that the council procurement process has seen 60% of its funding wiped out overnight? Will he join me in calling on Solihull Council to do everything to ensure the survival of my brilliant local Citizens Advice?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I certainly understand, not least from my own constituency, the valuable service that Citizens Advice provides in many parts of the country. As my hon. Friend knows, the funding available through the local government settlement is largely not ring-fenced. These are decisions for elected local authorities to take at their discretion, but I am sure that the local authority in Solihull has heard clearly my hon. Friend’s concerns.

Alex Sobel Portrait Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op)
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Q2. My constituent Rachel wrote to me saying:“My husband can’t live day to day without insulin. He’s trying to build up a supply by putting in prescriptions early, but there are limits to how much he can order and keep and we have no idea how bad this could get. I’m also worrying about my son, who has serious food intolerances. I lie awake at night worrying about it.”As the Minister knows, 99.5% of insulin used in the UK is made in the EU, and that is the tip of the medicinal iceberg. The Home Secretary, the Foreign Secretary and the Leader of the House all say that we need extra time. When will the Government allow our constituents to sleep at night and announce a delay to article 50?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Obviously if there are concerns about a particular case, the relevant Health Minister will be happy to discuss it with the hon. Gentleman. On his more general point, as part of sensible contingency planning, my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary and his Department have been talking to the suppliers of insulin and other key medicines and treatments to ensure that supplies will remain available to patients who need them, whatever the outcome of the current Brexit negotiations.

Huw Merriman Portrait Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Q11. Health and safety is strictly followed inside schools, but we expect our children to cross dangerous roads to get to the school gate. Will my right hon. Friend consider introducing new minimum requirements, a funding pot to provide for pedestrian crossings and signage, and reductions in speed limits to ensure that our children are looked after and do not have to cross such dangerous roads?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I completely understand the concerns about that issue of not only my hon. Friend but many parents. Of course, a lot depends upon the location of a school and the circumstances of the roads around it, but I am sure that a Minister from the Department for Transport will be happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss those ideas.

Geraint Davies Portrait Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
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Q3. This is Children’s Mental Health Week. There has been a massive deterioration in children’s mental health, with one in seven children now having a mental health disorder, much of which is linked to rising poverty. There is a chronic shortage of trained psychiatrists to treat those children, and we rely on the EU for one in seven trained psychiatrists and much of the primary research. What will the right hon. Gentleman do to avoid a further deterioration of the situation if we brexit?

John Bercow Portrait Mr Speaker
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I call the Minister.

Geraint Davies Portrait Geraint Davies
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Does he agree that parents who voted to leave did not vote to leave their children in greater risk of mental disorder and deserve a final say to protect their future?

John Bercow Portrait Mr Speaker
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Order. If the hon. Gentleman sought my advice, I would have provided it. He was doing extremely well, but he should have cut it off about 25 words earlier.

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

On the hon. Gentleman’s point about EU health workers, with the end of freedom of movement, we will need to put new arrangements in place. The immigration Bill before the House provides the framework within which those more detailed arrangements can be made for the future. Of course, the health service in Wales is devolved and a matter for the Welsh Government and Assembly, but NHS England’s long-term plan will see the largest expansion of mental health services in a generation.

Lord Clarke of Nottingham Portrait Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con)
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I listened very carefully to the quiet and earnest exchange between my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and the right hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry), the shadow Foreign Secretary, on the subject of arrangements for Brexit. I have to say that I formed the impression they were trying to find detailed points on which they could disagree, and that if it was left to them, they would take about five minutes to agree a proposal that would take us smoothly through 29 March into proper negotiations. May I ask my right hon. Friend if he would arrange that, on 14 February, we can finally have some indicative votes in the House so that the sensible majority can express their opinion? We can leave smoothly and start proper negotiations, based on a customs arrangement and some regulatory alignment in the transition period, and stop being so dominated by Corbynistas and the European Research Group.

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I have to say that, in the past couple of weeks, one of the things I have been spending my time doing is talking to right hon. and hon. Members from all parts of the House, including Labour Members, about their views regarding the way forward on Brexit. If the right hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) wanted to come and see me as well, I would be very happy to talk further to her. I just think it is a pity that the Leader of the Opposition waited a full fortnight before even opening discussions with the Government.

Paul Williams Portrait Dr Paul Williams (Stockton South) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Q4. The people watching expect MPs to be working together at this time in the national interest. While the Prime Minister is away chasing political fixes, the Minister knows that this Brexit crisis could be resolved right here in this House, because many Members would support a deal that was then put to the public for their approval. Why will he not offer this public final say when he knows that it would break the deadlock?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Gentleman has been a completely open and honourable champion of the second referendum, and I respect that fact. He knows the Government’s concerns that that would lead to an erosion of public trust in our political process, and that it would not actually settle the question because there would then be demands from whoever lost a second referendum to proceed to a third. I have to say to the hon. Gentleman that he needs to persuade his own Front Benchers, because I find that opposition to a second referendum is quite deep in both major parties in the House.

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I have just come from speaking at the launch of a draft EU-UK free trade agreement. It lays out 300 pages of what such an agreement would look like and invites the Government and businesses to engage, but it depends on our being outside a customs union with the EU. Notwithstanding the earlier exchanges on this very topic, will my right hon. Friend recommit himself today to our manifesto commitment to be outside a customs union with the EU in the future relationship?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My right hon. Friend, perfectly properly, made reference to the 2017 Conservative manifesto, but I could also refer him to many, many statements made from this Dispatch Box and elsewhere by our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to the same effect. I would say to him that, for the complex negotiations that would be needed to establish the detail of the future economic partnership between ourselves and the European Union, we need to have the implementation or transitional period that is specified in the withdrawal agreement. That is what businesses of all sizes in all sectors are asking us in this House to do, and that is why the House should come together and support a deal.

James Frith Portrait James Frith (Bury North) (Lab)
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Q6. Will the Minister explain why councils such as Bury, with less availability of brownfield land, cannot use the most recent independent Office for National Statistics figures on household projections to determine local housing need, thus saving more of our precious green belt from development?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Of course, new tests of housing need have recently been introduced. They are designed to reflect the fact that under successive Governments of all political parties, we as a country have been building far fewer new homes than our country and particularly our younger generation now need. I can say to the hon. Gentleman that, representing one part of the country with some of the fastest housebuilding rates anywhere in England, I think this is a social justice challenge that we have to face up to, but the national planning policy contains within it very strong tests to protect against inappropriate development in the green belt, and the Government will stand by that approach.

Lucy Allan Portrait Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Last week it was announced that emergency services and women and children’s services are going to be moved out of borough from Telford’s Princess Royal Hospital. I have asked the Health Secretary to call in that decision for review, because the needs and health outcomes of people in both Telford and Wrekin have not been considered. Will my right hon. Friend join me in urging the Health Secretary to review the decision and to listen to the concerns of people in Telford and Wrekin?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

As I would expect, my hon. Friend is a very strong advocate for the health needs of her local area. I understand that she met the Secretary of State for Health yesterday, and I am sure that he will reflect carefully on the case that she put to him.

Hugh Gaffney Portrait Hugh Gaffney (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)
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Q7. With fuel poverty on the rise thanks to this Government, it is important that everyone who needs cold weather payments receives them. My constituents who live less than 10 miles from a certain weather station—the majority—receive those payments when temperatures fall below zero. However, the arrangements for my constituents in a neighbouring ward are based on a measurement from another weather station that is 20 miles away. Will the Minister act to end the postcode lottery for cold weather payments for the good people of Bellshill, Coatbridge and Chryston?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Government are absolutely committed to ensuring that the most vulnerable people get support when they need it most. It is important, obviously, that people are able to keep their homes warm during any cold snaps, and the cold weather payments and winter fuel payment enable them to do that. I will ensure that the relevant Minister looks into the particular constituency issue raised by the hon. Gentleman.

Jack Brereton Portrait Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con)
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On behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy), who has been in his constituency this morning, I want to thank Staffordshire fire and rescue and Staffordshire police for their efforts in the horrific fire that occurred in Stafford this week. I also want to thank the local schools for the support being given to children who know the family. Will my right hon. Friend join me in expressing our condolences to the family and friends involved?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I do not believe that there is any Member of this House whose reaction to that ghastly news yesterday was other than horror and the most deeply felt sense of sympathy with the family and friends of the children and parents involved. Thinking through what that family have had to live through, and must face living through in the future, it strikes one that it must be almost unendurable. On behalf of the whole House, I hope, I join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to the emergency services—let us not forget that, for those who were called out to the scene, this would have been a traumatic experience—and to the local schools. The fire and rescue service will lead an investigation into the causes of this tragedy, and obviously we will have to await the outcome of that before deciding whether any further lessons should be drawn.

Jim McMahon Portrait Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab/Co-op)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Q8. My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) opened her heart to share the story of her son Martin and the pain that she went through when he died as a child. The Prime Minister committed to establishing Martin’s fund, a children’s funeral fund that would mean that parents would not have to bear the cost of burying their child, yet nine months on, 3,000 families have had to find the funding to bury their children because the Government have not put the fund in place. When can we see the fund and, importantly, will the Government commit to backdating payments to the date on which that announcement was made?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

As the Prime Minister has said, it is not right that grieving parents have to worry about how to meet the funeral costs for a child. We have confirmed that parents will no longer have to meet the costs of burials or cremations, and fees will be waived by all local authorities and paid for instead by Government. We have been working, as I think the hon. Gentleman acknowledged, on the most effective way to deliver the fund, because we need to make sure that we get this right, but I take his point about the need to step up the pace. We will provide an update to Parliament on implementation as soon as possible, and I will certainly draw his comments and the support that he has from other Members right across the House, on a cross-party basis, to the attention of the Ministers concerned.

Derek Thomas Portrait Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am proud to represent Penzance, which is at the start of the rail link to London and elsewhere. Five years after the track was cut off by both coastal erosion and landslides, the planning application has finally gone in to create a resilient rail link for Devon and Cornwall. Will my right hon. Friend assure my constituents and the House that adequate funds will be made available to avoid any further delays?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is absolutely right about the critical importance of this stretch of line not just to south Devon but to the whole south-west, in particular people living in Cornwall. I have been told by the Department for Transport that the first phase of work to protect the sea wall at Dawlish began in November last year, with essential repairs to breakwaters. That is part of a £15 million wider investment to make the railway at Dawlish and Teignmouth more resilient to extreme weather. Top-quality engineers have been carrying out detailed ground investigations to develop a long-term solution to protect the railway and to minimise disruption for passengers. We are now talking to Network Rail about the long-term plan.

Peter Grant Portrait Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Q10. Last year, my constituent with cerebral palsy was awarded £55 a week in personal independence payment. She was then diagnosed as having fibromyalgia, an incurable and often severely debilitating condition. She was summoned for reassessment and the private profit-driven company this Government choose to make such assessments decided that she is healthier with fibromyalgia than she was without and stopped her benefit in its entirety. That leaves her £2,900 per year worse off than she was before, literally punishing my constituent for being ill. How do the Government possibly hope to justify such a travesty of justice?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Gentleman raises a constituency case. I do not know the details other than those he has just relayed to the House, but I will ask the relevant Minister at the Department for Work and Pensions to talk to him and to look into the details of the case in greater depth.

Bernard Jenkin Portrait Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

May I point out to my right hon. Friend that the House has already had some indicative votes? The House did not like the withdrawal agreement as it stands and would prefer not to leave without a withdrawal agreement at all, and the whole Government voted to replace the backstop. What progress is being made in the discussions led by a remarkable alliance of my right hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan) and my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg)? They are promoting what is known as the Malthouse compromise, which would replace the backstop with a perfectly viable scheme to secure an open border in Northern Ireland under all circumstances. What is holding it up?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

There is no attempt to hold anything up. The Government are very determined that we need to make progress, not least because of the two-year deadline under article 50 and the importance to our businesses of leaving the EU in an orderly manner with a withdrawal agreement. The group to which my hon. Friend refers has been meeting my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union. Those talks continue.

Steve Reed Portrait Mr Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab/Co-op)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Q12. ISS is a private contractor that employs some of my constituents as porters and cleaners at Kingston Hospital, but it will not pay them sick pay. One was refused sick pay after suffering a stroke, and coercing sick people to come into a hospital risks infecting vulnerable patients. ISS has now threatened to break off negotiations with the GMB trade union if there is any political campaigning on this issue, including contacting MPs. Will the right hon. Gentleman condemn ISS for undermining its workers’ basic democratic right to contact their MP, and will he call on ISS to pay its workers fairly, including when they are sick?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Two issues were raised there. On the point about access to a Member of Parliament, there is no excuse for any organisation or individual to try to stop a constituent approaching their Member of Parliament. While this is ultimately a matter for you, Mr Speaker, there have been previous occasions when such attempts have been ruled as a contempt of Parliament, so I hope that message will go back. On the substantive point about the operation of the contracts, clearly the contract would have been let by the relevant part of the NHS, but the Health Secretary has indicated to me that he is very willing to sit down with the hon. Gentleman to talk through the details.

Mark Francois Portrait Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Following on from the excellent question from my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin), I remind the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster that the House passed the so-called Brady amendment on 29 January. Three hundred and seventeen Members were present and actively involved, as they all voted for it, including my right hon. Friend and the whole Government. The amendment said:

“and requires the Northern Ireland backstop to be replaced with alternative arrangements to avoid a hard border”.

As the Government voted for it, will he confirm that that is still their policy, and if not, which bit of “replaced” was not clear?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
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The motion also said, of course, that subject to those changes, those who voted for it would be willing to accept the withdrawal agreement. Talks are continuing with the so-called Malthouse group, but my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister spelled out in Belfast yesterday how she intends to take forward the work following the vote for the amendment in the name of our hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West (Sir Graham Brady).

Layla Moran Portrait Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD)
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Q13. The premise for the Oxford-to-Cambridge expressway has never been consulted on, yet this multibillion-pound, multi-lane highway is set to carve through the landscape between Oxford, Milton Keynes and Cambridge and will affect millions of people. A consultation is due to start on the route options later this year, but will the Minister guarantee today that there will also be a formal consultation on whether the expressway is the right thing to do at all?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
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The expressway is part of a strategic plan for the Oxford-Cambridge corridor, which is probably the best opportunity for economic growth, innovation and job creation anywhere in Europe at the moment. Like the hon. Lady, I speak as somebody who has a constituency interest—not just a Government interest—in this. There will be a public consultation on route options later this year. There will then be a public consultation on the preferred route, and communities will be able to comment on all aspects of the expressway during those consultations.

Victoria Prentis Portrait Victoria Prentis (Banbury) (Con)
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There can be no doubt that the people of Venezuela are really suffering: 40 of them were killed in recent protests, many more have been detained and many are simply voting with their feet and leaving—those who can. What more can we do as a Government to help these people, and does my right hon. Friend agree that sanctions are still a valuable tool?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
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What is happening in Venezuela is appalling. We have seen the suppression of democratic institutions and traditions, and we have seen 3 million people forced to leave their country and live as refugees. We and our EU partners have been clear that we need to put pressure on those around Maduro. We need to keep that pressure up, and we are looking at what further steps we can take to ensure peace and democracy, including through possible sanctions. It would be a help if, in this House, we spoke with a united voice, rather than having the Leader of the Opposition looking to Maduro’s Venezuela as a role model for this country.

Stephen Kinnock Portrait Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab)
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Q14. The Prime Minister is on record as saying that she does not want a “business as usual” relationship with Russia. Will the Minister explain, then, why in the past year, the Conservative party has trousered £1 million in donations from individuals with strong links to the Kremlin, including a former Russian Defence Minister and the wife of President Putin’s former Finance Minister?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
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Party matters are not a subject of Government responsibility, but all donations to the Conservative party have been properly accounted for and declared to the Electoral Commission in accordance with the law. There are people of Russian origin who are United Kingdom citizens and as entitled as any other naturalised UK citizen to support and donate to the political party of their choice.

Paul Masterton Portrait Paul Masterton (East Renfrewshire) (Con)
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For parents across East Renfrewshire, the safety of their children online is an absolute priority, so I very much welcome the announcements from the Government of more steps in relation to social media companies, but can my right hon. Friend confirm that the online harms White Paper remains on track to be out on time and that, whatever happens with Brexit, this workstream will be a priority for the Government?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
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Yes, and I actually talked to the Culture Secretary this week about the need to press ahead with urgency on this task. We have heard the calls for an internet regulator and a statutory duty of care, and we are seriously considering these options. Our White Paper will clearly set out how responsibilities should be met and what should happen if they are not.

Sandy Martin Portrait Sandy Martin (Ipswich) (Lab)
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Q15. Falklands veteran Rory McCormick met his Russian spouse six years ago. She obtained a valid article 10 EU residence card in Ireland. Now he, his two children and his wife, who is lawfully resident in the UK under the Immigration Act 2014, are being refused private tenancy in Ipswich. Does the deputy Prime Minister believe that it is morally defensible for a British citizen and his family to be made homeless in their own country simply because the Home Office guidance wrongly rules out article 10 cards issued outside the UK as valid eligibility documents for letting agents?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
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As the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, I am not familiar, as he is, with the details of his constituency case, and I was not certain from how he posed his question whether the problem was with the documentation alone or whether there was a more substantive problem, but the Immigration Minister or another relevant Minister will happily talk to him to try to sort this out.

John Baron Portrait Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
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Does my right hon. Friend agree that Brexit provides us with the opportunity to introduce a controlled and fair immigration system that no longer discriminates against the rest of the world outside the EU and that that system should be the least bureaucratic possible?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
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I agree with my hon. Friend on both those points. It is important that in the future we have a system that is fair, makes it easy for the brightest and best in the world to come and work and study here and judges people not by the country they come from but on the skills they bring to this country and their commitment to this country.

Vince Cable Portrait Sir Vince Cable (Twickenham) (LD)
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The Minister will recall that my colleagues and I in the coalition introduced the naming and shaming of companies that fail to pay the minimum wage. This practice has ceased since last summer, apparently because civil servants are tied up on Brexit duties. What does this tell us about the Government’s new-found enthusiasm for labour rights, and when will these lists be published?

David Lidington Portrait Mr Lidington
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I would have hoped that the right hon. Gentleman acknowledged that the Government have continued to take forward and strengthen further the policies on the national living wage, which we worked together on during the coalition days, but I will look into the point he has made, discuss it with my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary and perhaps a drop him a note to say what we have concluded.

Points of Order

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
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12:48
Ian Blackford Portrait Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP)
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On a point of order, Mr Speaker. During Prime Minister’s questions, I raised the issue of the attack on pensions and pensioners, and I was surprised to hear the Minister for the Cabinet Office claim in response that the Scottish Government had responsibility, if we so chose, to deal with the problems created by the UK Government. He will know that pensions are reserved and that the Scottish Parliament cannot create any new pension or old-age benefit because of the restrictions in section 28 of the Scotland Act 2016, under which we cannot give pensions assistance or assistance for reasons of age. We find it intolerable that time after time the UK Government claim that the Scottish Parliament or Government have powers they patently do not have, and it must stop.

John Bercow Portrait Mr Speaker
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That is not a matter for the Chair, but the right hon. Gentleman has made his point with force and clarity. If the Minister for the Cabinet Office wishes to respond, he can. He is not under an obligation to do so, but if he does not, I suspect, knowing the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) , who is a persistent blighter, that he will not go away. Quite understandably and justifiably, he will want to return to the issue over and over again, so it might be best if the Minister would deploy his considerable intellect and respond.

David Lidington Portrait The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office (Mr David Lidington)
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Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I am very clear that the advice I have is that under the Scotland Act 2016 the Scottish Government have the power to top up reserved benefits. It is for the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) to defend the decision of a Scottish Government not to do so.

Ian Blackford Portrait Ian Blackford
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Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker.

John Bercow Portrait Mr Speaker
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I think the idea of further debate is fermenting in the mind of the leader of the Scottish National party as we speak. I am not sure that there is any “further to”, but I am in a generous mood—[Interruption.] I think that gesture means it will be short, so very well.

Ian Blackford Portrait Ian Blackford
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I have respect for the Minister, but he needs to reflect on the fact that pensions are reserved, period, under legislation from this Government.

John Bercow Portrait Mr Speaker
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The right hon. Gentleman is a bit like me; he likes to have the last word. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) is a precious delicacy in the House, and we should not squander him too early. I will come to him.

Barry Gardiner Portrait Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
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On a point of order, Mr Speaker. It has been widely reported that the Secretary of State for International Trade has advised industry representatives that he proposes to introduce measures in the event of a no-deal Brexit to reduce all import tariffs on goods to zero. The impact of that in job losses in our manufacturing and farming industries would be enormous. It would also undermine the Government’s much vaunted ambition to negotiate new trade deals by giving away what other countries would happily bargain access into their own markets to obtain. Have you, Mr Speaker, received any indication from the Government that a Minister is preparing to make a statement to this House on such a far-reaching and important matter?

John Bercow Portrait Mr Speaker
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No, not as yet, but who knows what is to follow. We live in hope. The hon. Gentleman’s grinning countenance suggests that he is satisfied with his efforts for now.

Peter Bone Portrait Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
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On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sorry that I have not given you notice of this, but it was not possible. Since Prime Minister’s questions began, the President of the European Council has said that there is a “special place in hell” reserved for Brexiteers. I do not recall any President insulting Members of this House, members of the Government and the British people in such a way. What means are open to the House or the Government to respond to such a completely outrageous insult?

John Bercow Portrait Mr Speaker
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I am not responsible for the statements of the President of the European Council, and I did not know—I was not hitherto conscious—that the hon. Gentleman was notably sensitive, that he was in any sense a delicate flower, and that he was capable of being a quickly and severely injured soul by virtue of the ad hominem remarks of others. If indeed he has been developing a sensitivity and he feels insulted—[Interruption.] Or even, as the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) chunters from a sedentary position, wounded.

John Bercow Portrait Mr Speaker
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Deeply wounded, apparently. Well, then I am sorry for the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone). Whatever views he has and expresses, as far as I am concerned, as he knows, I hold him in the highest esteem because he takes Parliament seriously— he always has done and he always will do. It is not for the Speaker to arbitrate between different political opinions. What the Speaker likes to see and hear is the sight and sound of committed parliamentarians who take their responsibilities seriously. No one does so more obviously than the hon. Gentleman.

Joanna Cherry Portrait Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
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Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker.

John Bercow Portrait Mr Speaker
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It seems to be very much a phone-carrying day. Very well.

Joanna Cherry Portrait Joanna Cherry
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I shall keep this brief, Mr Speaker. I did not have the chance to advise you of my point order in advance, as it arises from that of the right hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone). May I respectfully suggest to you that you respectfully suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he might want to go beyond the headlines of the BBC in future? What the European Council President Donald Tusk actually said was that there is a “special place in hell” for

“those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely”.

So perhaps—[Hon. Members: “Oh!] Well, Mr Speaker, sometimes the truth hurts, doesn’t it?

John Bercow Portrait Mr Speaker
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To be frank, as Speaker I do not really mind what it is that the President of the European Council has said, because it is not a matter that concerns me. I hope that the hon. and learned Lady will forgive me if I note en passant that in the course of making a point that I know was very important to her, she inadvertently elevated the hon. Member for Wellingborough to membership of the Privy Council. Perhaps it is only a matter of time, but the Treasury Bench might wish to take that as a hint; alternatively, they might not. We will leave it there for now, but I am glad that the hon. and learned Lady is in a jocular spirit, and the same seems to be capable of being said of the hon. Gentleman, even if he is deeply wounded.

BILL PRESENTED

European Union (Referendum on Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Tom Brake, supported by Sir Vince Cable, Jo Swinson, Wera Hobhouse, Mr Ben Bradshaw, Dr Sarah Wollaston, Stephen Gethins, Jonathan Edwards, Caroline Lucas, Stephen Doughty and Geraint Davies presented a Bill to require the holding of a referendum in which one option is to endorse the agreement between the United Kingdom Government and the European Union on the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union and the other option is for the United Kingdom to continue to be a member of the European Union; to require the Prime Minister to seek an extension of the period of two years specified in Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union to a period ending after that referendum; and for connected purposes.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on 22 March, and to be printed (Bill 331).

Armed Forces Covenant (Duty of Public Authorities)

1st reading: House of Commons
Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
Read Full debate Armed Forces Covenant (Duty of Public Authorities) Bill 2017-19 View all Armed Forces Covenant (Duty of Public Authorities) Bill 2017-19 Debates Read Hansard Text

A Ten Minute Rule Bill is a First Reading of a Private Members Bill, but with the sponsor permitted to make a ten minute speech outlining the reasons for the proposed legislation.

There is little chance of the Bill proceeding further unless there is unanimous consent for the Bill or the Government elects to support the Bill directly.

For more information see: Ten Minute Bills

This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record

Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order No. 23)
12:56
Gavin Robinson Portrait Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
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I beg to move,

That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require public authorities to deliver services in accordance with the armed forces covenant; and for connected purposes.

It is a great privilege to present this ten-minute rule Bill. I consider it a huge privilege to serve as Northern Ireland’s only voice on the Defence Committee, following the service of my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) and my hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). We recognise the enormous sacrifice given not only during the Northern Ireland troubles and through Operation Banner, which remains our country’s longest continuous military deployment, but historically and to the present day, and we value the above average contribution that Northern Ireland makes to our country’s overall strength. Collectively, as a nation, we honour that commitment. Collectively, as a Parliament, we progressed the armed forces covenant, which nobly states:

“To those who proudly protect our nation, who do so with honour, courage, and commitment, the Armed Forces Covenant is the nation’s commitment to you.

It is a pledge that together we acknowledge and understand that those who serve or who have served in the armed forces, and their families, should be treated with fairness and respect in the communities, economy and society they serve with their lives.”

I stand by those laudable and honourable words, but, regrettably, we cannot as parliamentarians say with confidence that the covenant runs smoothly and is always applied equally across the United Kingdom. That is the injustice that I hope my Bill will address. The statutory duty it proposes will extend throughout the United Kingdom. The covenant is intended to be a universal commitment, and the experience, care and compassion veterans receive should be the same, but their experience is far from universal.

For too long, the experience of Northern Ireland-based veterans has been substandard. Yes, we have devolution. Yes, we have particular issues that are alive in Northern Ireland that do not pervade other parts the country. But the covenant was not caveated in any way, and we should not caveat our resolve to ensure its full implementation.

I recall the first occasion when, during scrutiny of the covenant implementation report in the Defence Committee, I laid before the then Veterans Minister correspondence received from the Health Minister in Northern Ireland at the time, Sinn Féin’s Michelle O’Neill. Responding to the needs of an individual veteran, she stated categorically that the armed forces covenant did not apply in Northern Ireland. In fact, she said that it did not apply “here”, because she could not bring herself to say “Northern Ireland”. She was wrong, but she was able to abuse her ministerial role to frustrate the honourable outworking of our nation’s commitment.

Such sectarian intransigence exists, and, depending on the allocation of ministerial office in Northern Ireland, it has the potential to block implementation in all the key operational departments. The shame of that action is matched only by the apparent unwillingness of this Parliament to meet it head-on. The sacrifice offered across our country is the same. The lives lost or injuries sustained do not confine themselves to respective parts of our nation, nor should we confine ourselves in our response.

For two years, successive covenant implementation reports have highlighted the fact that armed forces champions have been appointed in each of Northern Ireland’s 11 local authorities. On the face of it that is great progress, but when we know that local authorities in Northern Ireland have no role or influence in housing, health—including mental health—or education, it amounts to nothing more than tokenism.

In the most recent covenant report, some space was given to the through-life support offered to our veterans community. I read with interest three pages about the great work being undertaken in England, a further page about the work undertaken in Scotland, and yet another about the work undertaken in Wales. There was not a single line about Northern Ireland. There was nothing: no encouraging progress, no hurdles to be overcome, no aspirations for the future.

When Border Force recruitment in Northern Ireland was suspended because one of the eligibility criteria was service in the armed forces, the tension between the covenant and equality legislation became all too apparent. There is a misguided belief that equality laws in Northern Ireland act as a barrier to providing for our veterans community. It would, of course, be hugely advantageous to amend section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to include veterans as a protected class, in line with the aims and aspirations of the covenant. More pronounced, however, is the embarrassing failure to mount any justification for the reasonable aims of the covenant, which is all that Border Force needed to do.

Rather than justifying the reasons why service in the armed forces was a sterling criterion, demonstrating key skills that would enhance an application from a veteran—which is what the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland sought—Border Force decided that it was better to remove veterans’ opportunity to serve their country once again. How dishonourable that was. Rather than advancing the cause of those applicants, Border Force pulled the rug from under them. They were prepared to defend our country in their armed service careers, and they were prepared to defend it again through service in Border Force, yet we in this Parliament did not manage to defend their future career prospects.

Given all the constraints, and the seemingly intractable unwillingness to overcome them, I must especially praise the Reserve Forces and Cadets Association for Northern Ireland, which seeks valiantly to serve our veteran population. I also pay tribute to the Ulster Defence Regiment and Royal Irish Regiment benevolent funds, which continue to support veterans and their families, from Omagh to St Patrick’s in Ballymena and from Thiepval to Palace Barracks in North Down at the edge of my constituency.

With its new veterans support officer, RFCA NI attempts to navigate the system in Northern Ireland and seeks to find subtle workarounds, but in doing so, it is unfolding the circumstances of scores of individuals who, unlike their mainland counterparts, have had no opportunity to avail themselves of the services that they require and expect and that we should provide. It is discovering a lack of resources and a lack of legislative support.

When I say that, I look at the Veterans Minister, the right hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood). I know of his personal commitment, and I know how much he has engaged in matters that do not arise solely in Northern Ireland. The issues raised by the fact that the covenant is not running smoothly apply throughout the United Kingdom. In the Defence Committee, we are identifying distinct differences in mental health provision and other support services in Scotland, Wales and England.

I believe we must say that no longer should our veteran population in Northern Ireland—and in other parts of this United Kingdom—remain with one hand tied behind their back. We owe them more than that. I have focused my remarks on Northern Ireland, but I know only too well that the principle applies across our nation. We have the chance to change that. At the very least, let this parliamentary process—through my quest for a statutory duty to implement the covenant—honour those who so gallantly honoured us.

Question put and agreed to.

Ordered,

That Gavin Robinson, Nigel Dodds, Sir Jeffrey Donaldson, Emma Little Pengelly, Dr Julian Lewis, Mrs Madeleine Moon, John Spellar, Leo Docherty, Mr Kevan Jones, Anne-Marie Trevelyan, Ruth Smeeth and Jamie Stone present the Bill.

Gavin Robinson accordingly presented the Bill.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 22 March and to be printed (Bill 332).

Social Security

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
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John Bercow Portrait Mr Speaker
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With the leave of the House, we will debate motions 2 and 3 together.

13:07
Sarah Newton Portrait The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work (Sarah Newton)
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I beg to move,

That the draft Mesothelioma Lump Sum Payments (Conditions and Amounts) (Amendment) Regulations 2019, which were laid before this House on 15 January, be approved.

John Bercow Portrait Mr Speaker
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With this it will be convenient to discuss the following motion:

That the draft Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) (Payment of Claims) (Amendment) Regulations 2019, which were laid before this House on 15 January, be approved.

Sarah Newton Portrait Sarah Newton
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These two statutory instruments will increase the value of lump sum awards payable under the Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) Act 1979 and the diffuse mesothelioma scheme, which was set up by the Child Maintenance and Other Payments Act 2008. Those schemes stand apart from the main social security benefits uprating procedure, and there is no legislative requirement to review the level of payments each year. None the less, I am happy to increase the amounts payable from 1 April this year by September’s consumer prices index of 2.4%.

The Government recognise the very great suffering of individuals and their families caused by the serious and often fatal diseases resulting from exposure to asbestos, coal dust and other forms of dust. The individuals affected may be unable to bring a successful claim for damages, often owing to the long latency period of their condition, but they can still claim compensation through these schemes.

I will briefly summarise the specific purpose of the two compensation schemes. The Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) Act 1979, which for simplicity I will refer to as the 1979 Act scheme, provides a lump sum compensation payment to those who have one of five dust-related respiratory diseases covered by the scheme, who are unable to claim damages from employers because they have gone out of business and who have not brought any action against others for damages. The five diseases covered by the 1979 Act scheme are diffuse mesothelioma, bilateral diffuse pleural thickening, pneumoconiosis and byssinosis, as well as primary carcinoma of the lung if accompanied by asbestosis or bilateral diffuse pleural thickening. The 2008 mesothelioma lump sum payment scheme widens the criteria for compensation to those who have contracted diffuse mesothelioma but who are unable to claim compensation for that disease under the 1979 Act scheme—for example, those people who were self-employed or whose exposure to asbestos was not due to work.

Payments under the 1979 Act scheme are based on the age of the person with the disease and their level of disablement at the time of their diagnosis. All payments for diffuse mesothelioma are made at the 100% rate. All payments under the 2008 scheme are also made at the 100% disablement rate and based on age, with the highest payments going to the youngest people with the disease. In the last full year, from April 2017 to March 2018, 3,680 people received payments under both schemes, totalling £49.2 million.

I am aware that the prevalence of diffuse mesothelioma is a particular concern of Members, given the number of deaths from this disease in Great Britain. It is at a historically high level. The life expectancy of those diagnosed with diffuse mesothelioma is poor, with many people dying within 12 months of diagnosis. The disease has a strong association with exposure to asbestos, and current evidence suggests that around 85% of all mesotheliomas diagnosed in men are attributable to asbestos exposures that occurred through work. Our latest available information suggests that there will continue to be around 2,500 diffuse mesothelioma deaths per year before the number of cases begins to fall during the next decade, reflecting a reduction in asbestos exposures after 1980.

Lord Walney Portrait John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Ind)
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The Minister will be aware that Barrow and Furness has the highest number of asbestos-related cancer deaths in the whole of England and Wales. Is she aware of how many sufferers who were previously compensated under the scheme covering pleural plaques are now falling victim to terminal asbestosis and finding themselves ineligible for any compensation under these schemes? Does she not feel that that is unjust? Will she meet me and representatives of my community to discuss that?

Sarah Newton Portrait Sarah Newton
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I am always happy to meet colleagues from across the House if they have particular constituency issues or if people who really need support are falling between the cracks. There are three different schemes available to support people, and we are talking about two of them today. I would be happy to meet the hon. Gentleman to explore those issues and to discuss the three compensation programmes to see whether there is more that we can do. We are absolutely committed to ensuring that people get the support to which they are entitled.

We expect to see a decline in the number of people being diagnosed with diffuse mesothelioma in the coming years, but many people will continue to develop the condition and the other respiratory diseases, based on their exposure, for some time to come. That is why the Government are committed to working in partnership with their arm’s length bodies and agencies to improve the lives of those with respiratory diseases. I want to give the House an example of that commitment.

Last summer, I hosted a lung health summit, bringing together the Union of Democratic Mineworkers, my hon. Friends the Members for Sherwood (Mark Spencer) and for Mansfield (Ben Bradley) and representatives from the British Lung Association and the NHS. This was an opportunity to discuss the important work that the Government and our partners are doing and to listen to the first-hand experiences and problems, brought to my attention by my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood, that miners are encountering today as they try to get an appropriate diagnosis and therefore the financial support that we want them to receive.

A huge amount of work has been done as a result of that lung health summit, and I was delighted—as I hope everyone will be—to see that the recently published NHS long-term plan recognises the objective of improving outcomes for people with respiratory disease. The long-term plan sets out how the NHS will take action in a number of areas. This includes expanding programmes that support earlier diagnosis of respiratory diseases—including the pioneering lung health checks trialled in Manchester and Liverpool—and increasing access to proven treatments such as pulmonary rehabilitation. As part of the engagement process for the Government’s long-term plan, an NHS England respiratory oversight group has been created, which includes membership of the British Lung Foundation. In addition, NHS England has been working closely with the taskforce for lung health, which has also recently published its own five-year plan to improve lung health.

I want to take a few moments to talk about the work of the Health and Safety Executive in this regard. It does excellent work, the length and breadth of the country, but we seldom have an opportunity to reflect on that in this House. As a nation, we should be really proud of our long history of trying to prevent illness and injury at work. The very first factory inspectors were appointed under the Factory Act 1833 to prevent injury and overworking among child textile workers, and we have come a long way since then. The Health and Safety at Work etc. Act came into force in October 1974 and the Health and Safety Executive was formed in January 1975. The HSE is now well established as a mature regulator with a mission to prevent work-related death, injury and ill health. This is borne out by the most recent published HSE statistics, which show a long-term downward trend in the rate of self-reported non-fatal accidents and fatal accidents to workers. Indeed, the UK consistently has one of the lowest standardised rates of fatal injury when compared with any other large economy.

Turning back to the importance of these regulations, I am sure we all agree that, while no amount of money can ever compensate individuals or their families for the suffering and loss caused by the diffuse mesothelioma and pneumoconiosis covered by the 1979 Act scheme, those who have those diseases rightly deserve some form of monetary compensation. Finally, I am required to confirm to the House that these provisions are compatible with the European convention on human rights, and I am happy so to do.

13:18
Mike Amesbury Portrait Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab)
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The Child Maintenance and Other Payments Act 2008 made provisions for lump sum compensation payments to be made for those suffering from diffuse mesothelioma. It also made provisions for their dependants. The mesothelioma lump sum payments regulations laid before the House have uprated the lump sum payments for sufferers and their dependants by 2.4%. We welcome the fact that the Government have reviewed the rates in line with inflation, and we recognise that, as the Minister said, they are under no obligation to do so under the 2008 Act.

Mesothelioma is a type of cancer that covers the lining of the body’s organs. It is also almost exclusively caused by asbestos, when fibres have entered the lungs of sufferers and caused damage over time. The greater the exposure to asbestos, the more likely it is that someone will be at risk of mesothelioma. It can also affect those who have been indirectly exposed to asbestos. The victims of indirect asbestos exposure have been seeking justice through access to the diffuse mesothelioma payment scheme for some time, and the Government must seriously consider that matter.

It can take up to 40 years after the original exposure for mesothelioma symptoms to develop, and it is likely that the increase in the numbers of mesothelioma sufferers’ deaths in recent years is due to exposure that took place before the introduction of asbestos regulations in the 1970s. Mesothelioma has devastating effects on sufferers, as the Minister rightly said. For most victims, a diagnosis brings with it the inevitability of death, and one such death was that of my good friend, Brian Jamieson, who passed away in December. He was an active trade unionist who worked on Trafford Park, where he unfortunately acquired the disease. Tragically, only five in 100 people survive the cancer for more than five years after diagnosis.

The damage caused by asbestos is widely seen as one of the biggest public health crises in this country, ruining the lives not just of sufferers themselves, but of their families, friends and communities. The Department for Work and Pensions suggested that 53,000 people will die from mesothelioma between 2030 and 2037, and it is estimated that 2,500 people die every year as a result of the disease. The 2008 scheme provides a one-off payment to sufferers who have no occupational link to the disease or who are self-employed, including, for example, sufferers who live in close proximity to a workplace containing asbestos.

While Labour welcomes the regulations and the uprating of the lump sum payments, several serious issues remain. Alongside many campaigners, we are concerned about the disparity between lump sum payments made to dependants and those made to sufferers. It is unclear why dependants, who are themselves usually impacted by the effects of mesothelioma, receive so much less than sufferers. The difference in the amounts is stark. A mesothelioma sufferer aged 70 will receive £17,961 under the draft regulations. However, if the sufferer dies at aged 67 or over, their dependants receive just £8,000 as a lump sum payment. In 2010, the then Minister, Lord McKenzie of Luton, rightfully pledged to equalise payments, noting the unfair nature of the regulations. The Government have faced repeated calls to honour that commitment, but they have failed to do so. This is also an equality issue. The difference in payments is likely to affect mainly women whose husbands were directly exposed to asbestos at work. How can the Government continue to justify the difference between lump sum payments? Will the Minister tell us the most recent estimated cost of providing equal payments for sufferers and their dependants?

Communities are still being affected by asbestos exposure to this day, and exposure results in an estimated 5,000 deaths every year. The all-party group on occupational safety and health estimated that, shockingly, 75% of the 29,000 schools in Britain contain asbestos, so it is vital that we continue to raise awareness. What additional funding will be made available this year to ensure that we continue to make people aware of the dangers of exposure to asbestos? What campaigns are being run by the Health and Safety Executive about asbestos exposure?

As the Minister noted, the HSE plays a vital role in ending harmful exposure to asbestos, but this Government are responsible for a 40% cut to its budget. By this year, it is estimated that the HSE will receive £100 million less in Government funding than it did in 2009, and that comes despite estimates that 12,000 people are dying each year as a result of occupational cancers or lung diseases. Will the Minister conduct an impact assessment of the cuts to HSE funding on occupational health? Will she end the devastating cuts to the HSE? When will the HSE get the “austerity is over” cheque that the Prime Minister promised?

Labour also welcomes the regulations to increase lump sum payments to pneumoconiosis sufferers in line with inflation. We have further noted that the Government are under no statutory obligation to do so. The pneumoconiosis regulations refer to the Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) Act 1979, which provided lump sum payments to people disabled by dust-related diseases, including as a result of asbestos exposure and coal mining. Statistics show that there are an average of 140 deaths a year as a result of the disease. While we welcome the uprating under the regulations, the Government have failed to ensure that there is parity between the amounts offered to sufferers and to their dependants. Will the Minister finally act to ensure that there is parity between the two groups?

Sufferers of pneumoconiosis and their families have to go through onerous and often expensive hurdles in order to receive payments from the Department for Work and Pensions. A number of problems prevent people from receiving the support they deserve, including a lack of specialist knowledge about work-related diseases and issues with the DWP assessments. Will the Minister meet my colleagues and the National Union of Mine- workers to discuss changes to ensure that sufferers and their families are not prevented from receiving vital support for this incurable disease? Information about the disease is not widespread, and the disease is hard to diagnose because it does not show up on two-dimensional X-rays. Will the Minister tell us how much funding is going into promoting awareness of the disease?

The lump sum payment is a form of industrial injuries disablement benefit. Under universal credit, IIDB counts as unearned income, reducing the UC award. Under tax credits, the lump sum payment is disregarded completely. Sufferers and dependants on tax credits therefore stand to lose out if they naturally migrate on to universal credit. Will the Minister act immediately to ensure that no sufferer will lose out in this way? No impact assessment has been made of the effectiveness of either scheme, nor have the Government consulted trade unions about how best to compensate those who have lost out. Will the Minister act immediately to do so and provide an equality impact assessment on this most vital area of support?

Ann Clwyd Portrait Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)
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My hon. Friend is making some important points—I am sorry that more Members are not in the Chamber to hear them. There is real anger in former coal mining constituencies such as mine about the failure to pay out. People fought hard to get compensation in the first place—it took years and years of effort. Were it not for the previous Labour Government, we would have a lesser scheme than the present one. I support what my hon. Friend says, and we must give proper answers to the sufferers of pneumoconiosis and their families.

Mike Amesbury Portrait Mike Amesbury
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My right hon. Friend makes a powerful point. I have family members who were miners until they were put out of work, so I completely agree.

Labour welcomes the support available to sufferers and the uprating of the provisions, but it is clear that issues remain. I urge the Minister not only to ensure that equal treatment of sufferers and dependants is achieved, but to consider the implications of Government cuts and the introduction of universal credit for sufferers throughout the UK.

11:54
Tracey Crouch Portrait Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con)
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I welcome the draft Mesothelioma Lump Sum Payments (Conditions and Amounts) (Amendment) Regulations 2019 and the draft Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) (Payment of Claims) (Amendment) Regulations 2019. I understand that both schemes, which will ensure fair and timely payments to those with asbestos-related diseases, fall outside the general benefits uprating process and that, as such, no review mechanism is formally built into legislation to uprate the payments each year.

The Government’s 2.4% increase in the payments is very welcome and rightly demonstrates an ongoing commitment to supporting those suffering from asbestos-related diseases, many of whom contracted the disease through no fault of their own, and their families. For reasons that will become apparent, I wonder whether a future statutory instrument will include a table of occupations or professions—the regulations include a helpful breakdown of the ages of those with mesothelioma at first diagnosis—as that would help to identify those at risk and could perhaps be cross-referenced with other areas of support for those suffering from mesothelioma, where necessary.

Five years and one month ago, our former colleague from Wythenshawe and Sale East, Paul Goggins, tragically and suddenly passed away. Paul and I had tabled several cross-party amendments to the Bill that became the Mesothelioma Act 2014, and colleagues on both sides of the House will agree that his expertise and compassion have been and continue to be a great loss. He was the driving force behind much of the work on mesothelioma, and the ongoing success of the scheme is testament to his commitment to the issue and a fitting legacy for him as a parliamentarian.

Mike Penning Portrait Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con)
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I was the Minister responsible for taking the Mesothelioma Act through Parliament and, despite the restrictions I was under, Paul was an enormously useful knowledge base. At times I went back to my civil servants and said, “No, I have facts from people who were involved in this.” That was very useful, and the House should recognise the work of Paul Goggins.

Tracey Crouch Portrait Tracey Crouch
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I am grateful for my right hon. Friend’s intervention. I still have the Christmas card that Paul gave to me just before we rose for Christmas in 2013, in which he started, “Dear fellow meso warrior”. He was passionate about this, and it was a real privilege to have tabled amendments in his name—obviously, he was unable to be here to push them through.

We were successful during the passage of the Mesothelioma Act—with the support of colleagues on both sides of the House and in the other place, led by Lord Alton of Liverpool—in aligning payments with the 100% average civil damages. I am therefore sure that, like me, Paul would have welcomed the Minister’s written ministerial statement of 23 January on the diffuse mesothelioma payment scheme which confirmed, thanks to the excellent work of my right hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning), that the levy to be charged for 2018-19, payable by the insurance industry to fund the scheme, will be just short of £40 million.

Since the launch of the scheme in 2014, £130 million has been paid in compensation to almost 1,000 sufferers—that is £130 million that was not previously available to those suffering from mesothelioma who are not covered by the alternative schemes and unable to trace their employer’s liability insurance. I am grateful for the efforts of everyone in the House, including the late Paul Goggins and my right hon. Friend, who was the Minister at the time, in helping to provide such compensation for those who would not have had it previously.

Having worked with long-suffering officials at the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport for three and a half years as a Minister, I will take a second to praise the oversight committee’s annual report on the scheme. The report is well set out and tells us everything we need to know in a clear and transparent way, so I thank the officials who worked hard on it.

One amendment that Paul and I were sadly unsuccessful in adding to the legislation would have introduced an additional levy on the insurance industry to fund research into mesothelioma. It remains the case, as it has for decades, that mesothelioma is poorly understood and underfunded. We know it has a long latency period and is an incredibly aggressive form of lung cancer, and we also anticipate a future spike in diagnoses, with Medway a particular hotspot for the disease given its rich shipbuilding and industrial heritage. I am pleased that Medway clinical commissioning group is working with the local hospital to review its respiratory pathways, including the care of lung cancer patients, and the CCG is keen to be in the next round of lung health checks because of the higher incidence of mesothelioma in the area.

As the hon. Member for Weaver Vale (Mike Amesbury) said, we urgently need better to understand the disease. We need to work towards a meaningful treatment, and perhaps even a cure. Although I accept that this does not fall wholly within the remit of the Department for Work and Pensions, it is notable that the annual review shows that the levy scheme had a £3.45 million surplus last year. Following agreement with the insurance industry, the surplus was divided equally into the levy for the next three years. It might have been better to put that money into research, as while £3 million is small change in the insurance world, it is a lottery win for research. Again, that might be worth considering for next year. I would be grateful if, on the back of this debate, the Minister would write to me to elaborate on what work her Department is undertaking to engage the Department of Health and Social Care in better understanding the disease and improving outcomes for sufferers.

Asbestos in schools is an important topic. Although, again, this does not fall wholly within the remit of the DWP, it does have important implications for the various schemes the DWP administers for sufferers. In a 2015 Adjournment debate on asbestos in schools, I mentioned that the issue needed a cross-departmental effort led by the Department for Education through the Priority School Building programme. I would be grateful if the Minister could update us on any discussions she has had with DFE colleagues on the potential impact of asbestos in schools. For example, is any data shared on the profession of applicants to the asbestos-related schemes whose benefits are administered by her Department?

There is a huge amount to commend in the Government’s ongoing commitment to supporting those who suffer from mesothelioma and asbestos-related diseases. I miss my meso partner in crime, Paul Goggins, enormously. Although he would agree that the progress should be celebrated, he would continue to say that there is always much more that can be done further to improve the outcomes for sufferers of this terrible disease.

13:36
Peter Grant Portrait Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)
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I am pleased to be able to contribute to this debate. The Whips Office asked me whether I would like to contribute because my constituency historically had a strong mining tradition, and I am particularly pleased to take part because 3,000 or so people lose their life to mesothelioma each year.

In August 2008 one of those who lost their life to the disease was John MacDougall, then the Member of Parliament for the constituency I have the privilege to represent. John was only 60 years old, and he should have had years and years of active life ahead of him. He had given 26 years of service to the people as a councillor and as a Member of Parliament, and for many years before that he had been a trade unionist. It is a tragic irony that while John, through his trade union activities, was working for safer working conditions for his colleagues at the Rosyth dockyard and, later, at the Methil oil rig yard he was working in an environment that led to his tragic early death, denying him and his family the active retirement he had a right to expect.

The last time I remember seeing John—as far as I know, it was the last public activity he was able to carry out—was at an event organised by a stalwart of Fife Council, Willie Clarke, as part of a campaign to get proper recognition and proper compensation for former miners and others whose lives were blighted by pneumoconiosis. It seems appropriate to mark both John and Willie today. Willie gave 43 years’ service as a councillor in Fife, and he retired in 2016.

I think the reason for these regulations today and for why there is a statutory compensation scheme for miners, plumbers and others who suffer from these terrible diseases, is the determination of people like Willie Clarke. As a councillor and as a National Union of Mineworkers official, he worked with other officials in the NUM and in other trade unions. Without them, I do not think we would have a statutory scheme today, so I pay tribute to Willie, the late John MacDougall and others who have gone before us. They deserve the credit for our having this scheme.

The scheme is not perfect, and it can be criticised, but it has to be better than what we had before. Until we had a statutory compensation scheme, people had to take their employer through the courts. As the hon. Member for Weaver Vale (Mike Amesbury) mentioned, the compensation to a family for the loss of a loved one is often much, much less than the compensation paid to a patient who has to live with the consequences of their illness. That fact has been abused mercilessly by employers and others for decades. Often the reason for delays and so-called “complications” in compensation cases was purely down to the fact that the employer knew that if they could keep the case going until the claimant died, the size of any compensation payment would be significantly reduced. This was an insidious, vile and evil way to treat people, when they had often given years of service to companies, but that was what the business interests of employers often dictated. Again, I pay tribute to those who have helped to make sure that such a situation has been significantly improved. It has not been entirely sorted out, but things are better than they were in years gone by.

My grandad, Peter Quinn, whose name I am proud to bear, died when I was 10. I only remember him as an old man, one who was usually sick. He had to get a downstairs bathroom installed in his house and convert a front room into a bedroom because he could not get up and down the stairs. He could hardly walk the length of his garden—that is what I remember of him—but he was not much older than I am today. He had been a plumber all his days, which is clearly what caused the damage to his lungs and ended his life prematurely, as it ended the lives of tens of thousands, and possibly millions, of hard-working people the length and breadth of these islands. Those who are left behind and still have to live with the consequences of these appalling diseases deserve all the help we can give them, as do their families and loved ones.

I certainly support the proposal being put forward today. I was not surprised, because I already knew this, but it was disappointing that the Minister said there is not a statutory entitlement for these payments to be increased by the rate of inflation every year. Why is there not? Surely it is time to say to these people, “We think that the compensation that people like you will get in five years’ time should be worth the same in real terms as the money you are getting just now.” It should not need a decision of Parliament to accept—or, in theory, to reject—that increase. This is not money given to people to let them live in luxury. It is given to people as inadequate compensation for the loss of many years of their life and, very often, for the loss of quality life during the years they have left. We are talking about the people who made this collection of nations what it is. We would not have the economy we have today were it not for the shipyards in places such as Burntisland, which John MacDougall represented for so long, and for the mines, which produced massive wealth for so few, but which also destroyed the lives and livelihoods of so many. It is therefore appropriate that we continue to operate this compensation scheme and give, as an absolute minimum, an increase that allows people to keep pace with inflation.

However, I urge the Minister to give serious consideration to amending the legislation so that in future these increases in benefits can be made automatically. There should not be any option for this House to impose what would, in effect, be a reduction in real terms. I support the inflationary increase now, but I hope that by this time next year this increase, and perhaps a wee bit more, will be given automatically as a matter of right and not at the discretion of this House.

13:43
Mike Penning Portrait Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con)
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I rise in support of both these statutory instruments, which are sensibly being taken together, not least because we can now talk about the need to compensate people because of two basic products: coal and coal dust; and asbestos. This country got its wealth from coal, as men went down the mines to bring the coal out. For centuries, the wealth it provided put this country where it was. Asbestos was the great invention post-war, the insulating product that saved many lives, not least in fire prevention and insulation. Subsequently, however, it has destroyed millions of lives in this country today.

I am supporting the Minister today. I sat on the Bench where she is, taking these original measures through. I will make some more arguments in a moment, but at that time I made exactly the argument that the hon. Member for Glenrothes (Peter Grant) just made: why is this increase not automatically put through? I do not think there is an answer to that; I think this is just about bureaucracy and red tape. When the Bill was introduced all those years ago it was not perfect, as Bills often are not. There was so much happiness that that compensation Bill was brought through by the Labour party that things were missed or, as was my experience when I brought through the Bill that became the Mesothelioma Act 2014, people said, “It is too difficult. We don’t have the information at the moment. It can’t quite be done in that way.” I will touch on that in a moment. Such a measure would need primary legislation, but it could be tagged on to the many, many social security Bills that this House sees regularly—if we get the long title right, that can be done.

I know that the Minister will be listening, not only to me, but to Members from across the House, as, rightly, that is how she is as a Minister. So, first, I ask her to say to her officials, “This should be the last time that this is done this way.” This House can find time, if it really wants to, to right a wrong. There is no way in the world this House will say no to the uprating, so let us be pragmatic and sensible about it. I know that the officials in the Box will be sitting there thinking, “That Penning is going on again, just like he did when he was a Minister”, but what I am saying is right.

I wish to touch on a trivial point that the shadow Minister made: it is not “fibres” that cause mesothelioma, but fibre; something so small it would sit on the end of my finger will, 40 years from now, almost certainly kill people if it develops. No one understands why, and I will address that in moment. The public need to understand that this could affect people working in a school, a shipyard or myriad other occupations, including my former occupation of fireman. We were completely unprotected when we were going in to pull ceilings down, and turn things over and damp things down so that they did not reignite. Often there would be asbestos there, and we knew that. But we were the lucky ones, I think, because we were protected by the Fire Brigades Union, the union I was a member and branch secretary of; I recall being thrown out of the Labour party for a few years because we were too militant at the time. For me, as a trade unionist, this issue was very important, as firemen have died from asbestos-related diseases.

We have talked about the mines. Miners, often generation after generation after generation, put their lives at risk to go down the mines. Should we have learnt from the dangers? I agree that in some cases we should have done, but in other cases we did not really know. I used to live just down the road from a coal merchants, and as lads we often used to go to earn a bit of pocket money by filling the sacks. The coal dust there was not that much different from that in a mine, although the work was not as arduous as working down a mine. Did we realise, and did they realise, that this could seriously damage our lungs in the future? Of course not. So we need to learn from the past, and we have rightly done so.

I was enormously proud to bring through this House, as the Minister, the 2014 Act, which compensates people in cases where we cannot find their insurer and their employer, and where they were the missing few. I was lobbied heavily by my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) and by Paul Goggins and others to make it 100% rather than the 80% that was initially proposed, and to include third parties. Let us just think for a minute about what “third party” means. It often means the partner. It often means the wife of someone who worked in a shipyard and came home in his overalls covered in asbestos, which she then washed and hung out on the line. Is it right that we do not make sure that she has just as much, and that those families and those kids have just as much? The kids playing in the yard where those overalls were hanging could have been affected, but let us hope that has not happened. Could we, as was suggested in the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford, have written into the legislation that research should be part of the funding? I was told by my officials that we could not guarantee the money and we must not jeopardise the Bill, but that we could come back to that later. Well, here we are now, later. I stood at that Dispatch Box and said that if there was money there from the levy, that would be used for compensation. I said that on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government, on the Treasury Bench, as the Minister, with full authority from the Government. That should now be happening. There was clearly enough for the 100% compensation based on the average for those who had found an employer or insurer, and we now have a golden opportunity to say that the money is there. The insurers will say, “We can’t guarantee this,” but they said that before, and it is based on a levy.

We are not even talking about taxpayers’ money; it is a fund, and we could use it to do two things. First, if possible, we could find a cure and work out exactly what is going to go on. In retrospect, that will save lives and stop people needing money from the levy fund in the first place. I am no longer confident—hindsight is a wonderful thing—about the figures that were put in front of me and that this will taper off in the way predicted. I am not convinced about that because it involves too many industries and professions that are completely different from what we thought in the first place. We were looking at shipyards and plumbing, where asbestos was used extensively as insulation, but, as the hon. Member for Weaver Vale (Mike Amesbury) mentioned, there are currently teachers in schools who are not allowed to put a drawing pin into the wall for fear of moving the asbestos fibres. When it is in place, asbestos is perfectly safe; the issue is when it is moved. There are also hospitals to consider. There is one in Watford that looks after my constituency and dates back to before Victorian times. I am told that rather than build a new hospital, they are going to plough loads of money into that one to regenerate and refurbish it. We know that the asbestos in that hospital is a major problem. Why are we treating people in hospitals where we know that asbestos and dilapidation are issues? We need to protect the public as much as possible and make sure that the compensation schemes are there.

Before I finish, let me touch on the Health and Safety Executive, for which I was responsible as a Minister back in 2014, and which does a remarkable job. At the time, we looked carefully at how it was funded, and almost all its funding came from the central departmental funding stream. It is relatively different now: the Health and Safety Executive is a world leader in health and safety and brings a huge amount of money into the country’s economy, because we have freed it up to be able to do that. That does not mean that outside money should pay for everything. I am absolutely sure that the Health and Safety Executive needs to do the best possible job.

In 2005, my constituency was blown up by the Buncefield explosions—the largest fire and explosion in this country since the second world war. The Health and Safety Executive was absolutely brilliant. We were very lucky that no one died, and that meant that the Health and Safety Executive was responsible for the inquiry. As the constituency MP, I gave the Health and Safety Executive a pretty rough time, as everybody would expect me to have done, to get answers. In many ways, the Health and Safety Executive got those answers, and it was a privilege to be the Minister responsible for it some five years later.

13:53
Lord Walney Portrait John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Ind)
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I want to tell the Minister and the House a little about the life of Jack Hordon, who was until recently one of my constituents. Sadly, Mr Hordon died in December last year after a life in which he had worked in Barrow shipyard and in the merchant navy on behalf of the New Zealand Shipping Company. He was similar to many thousands of my constituents over the years, and similar to many people in shipbuilding areas and coalmining towns who served their families and their communities. They provided for themselves and their families, but in Barrow shipyard they also did a service for the nation by building vessels that went to war and the submarine fleets that have kept our nation safe for many years. Sometimes because of a lack of knowledge and often because of employers’ lack of care for their employees at the time, those people were exposed and unwittingly exposed their families—including their children, as the right hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning) rightly described—to this deadly killer that sometimes lay quiet for decades until it struck and took away their lives in the most cruel and painful circumstances.

I raise Mr Hordon’s case partly because his life is representative of so many, but also because of the particular gap and injustice exposed by his recent experience. I am very proud to be the successor of Lord Hutton of Furness. He now sits in the other place but was the previous Member of Parliament for Barrow and Furness. He was the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions in the previous Labour Government, when I was privileged to serve as his special adviser, and he was determined to speed up access to justice for mesothelioma sufferers and to stop the terrible situation in which there were delays in many sufferers getting their compensation payments, as previous speakers have described.

While Lord Hutton was serving in government, there was also a debate about pleural plaques. After he left the post, he privately lobbied his successor in the Department not to close the scheme and to remain alive to the potential pitfalls of the Government’s approach to pleural plaques. The window for claiming pleural plaques compensation was closed in 2007, and there was a debate about that at the time. Mr Hordon fell ill in 2017 and was diagnosed in August that year as a sufferer of malignant mesothelioma. For 20 years, he had been the full-time carer of his wife of 65 years. Throughout their life—all the time that she suffered from severely debilitating disabilities—they had never claimed. He had always worked assiduously to provide for the family so that they could stand on their own feet. When he fell ill, there was severe distress in the family at his no longer being able to perform that role. Mrs Hordon was forced to go into emergency care, which became permanent, at great distress to her and to the family.

The financial burden and the uncertainty meant there was a real imperative to seek mesothelioma compensation. The initial contact with solicitors was positive. As was the experience of many Members’ constituents, the solicitors said that the case could be taken forward at the greatest possible speed. However, they soon came back with the discovery that Mr Hordon had previously made a claim for pleural plaques, and it turned out that he had signed that, on the strong advice of his solicitors at the time, as a full and final settlement. The family were left unable to claim. They went back over their experience, and Mr Hordon could remember that the advice he was given was that there was only a 1% chance of the pleural plaques worsening into a terminal condition. The solicitors advised him, in the words of the family, “to bite off the hand” of those offering it.

I am grateful to the Minister for agreeing to a meeting because, clearly, this will not be an isolated case. Two issues arise from Mr Hordon’s tragic death and the circumstances around it: one is the injustice of him being denied the compensation that he needed every bit as much as anyone else who falls victim to such a condition; and secondly, there is a case for an inquiry into the practices around pleural plaques at the time. Mr Hordon’s family is clear that he cannot have been given proper advice by the solicitors and by those who were estimating the chances of his condition developing into something that was terminal. The fact is there was a financial incentive for some firms to use sharp practices: they wanted to seize the chance of cash without proper analysis of what the real risks were to people and what their circumstances might be in the future.

Mr Hordon and his family were clear that the risks were not properly spelled out to him. He cannot be alone in that. I speak on behalf of my own constituent and, as I said in my intervention on the Minister, of a constituency that has the highest number of asbestosis-related lung cancer deaths in the whole of England and Wales. I am sure that, potentially, the condition will affect many thousands more people across the country. Will the Government please agree to examine this issue so that there is the prospect of justice for people who find themselves in this situation?

14:02
Dennis Skinner Portrait Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
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I never thought that I would be involved in this debate at such a late stage in my life. I remember making my maiden speech. I had worked down the pits. There were 700 pits and 700,000 miners at the time. Those miners were very much responsible for assisting the nation both during the second world war and after. Those were very hard days in the mines, yet I finished up in this place, mainly because they wanted me to stop another Labour candidate from getting the seat. [Interruption.] That is the truth. I finished up in the palace of varieties, and here we are, many years later, discussing the very thing that I spoke about way back in 1970. It is almost like the Common Market coming back all over again—which it is.

I want to say from the outset that I agree with the right hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning) and the hon. Member for Glenrothes (Peter Grant) who talked about the yearly increase. We do that for a lot of things in Parliament; we increase things automatically. When I think about this subject, I can say that there is no better reason for having an uprate in September, or whenever it is, in accordance with the increases that have taken place in inflation, in pensions and in quite a lot of other things. It would be excellent if, in these 90 minutes, we were able to get that message across. If we get the right kind of people at the Dispatch Box later, perhaps they will be able to give a nod and a wink in this direction. I have seized on this issue today mainly because it was raised by the right hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead from the Tory party and the hon. Member for Glenrothes from the Scottish National party.

I remember the time when mesothelioma was first raised in the House; it was raised by Mick Clapham, one of my colleagues from Barnsley. Unlike Lord Hutton, he is not in the House of Lords. I suppose that he should be—in a way. He was the one who came here with this funny sounding word that is very difficult for people to remember—mesothelioma. I remember thinking, “How does he manage to get it out of his mouth?” I had to practise saying the word at night. Yes, it is very important to remember Mick Clapham and the fact that he seized on this very important subject.

Tracey Crouch Portrait Tracey Crouch
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I remember Mick Clapham because for my sins—for which I have repented through my rebellions over the Mesothelioma Act 2014—I worked for the insurance industry. Mick was the bane of our lives, particularly around the subject of compensation not just for mesothelioma—for those who could not find their employers—but for pleural plaques. The hon. Gentleman is quite right to recognise the sterling work that he did to change hearts and minds among not just Labour Members but Conservative Members for the plight of those who suffer from asbestos-related diseases.

Dennis Skinner Portrait Mr Skinner
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Yes, I will get on the phone to Mick and let him know about today’s events. Seriously, if I can tell him that there will be an automatic yearly increase, it will be a token to him and to all those who took part in that exercise at the time. I am very pleased to be here, and very pleased to be taking—

Dennis Skinner Portrait Mr Skinner
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Yes, I will give way.

Mike Penning Portrait Sir Mike Penning
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I just thought that it would be important to the House to put this on the record: I am sure that the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) never thought that he would agree with me.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

He has not said that he has yet.

Mike Penning Portrait Sir Mike Penning
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Well, he has actually.

This is why this House is so important. We can come together and say what is right, what is wrong and what can be done. If we come together to put a little bit of pressure on the Minister—not so much at the Dispatch Box today because she will be dragged over the coals—the Secretary of State and the Treasury, we can simply say, “This must be easier for you as a Government, and rather than bringing this forward, we can unite on this.”

Dennis Skinner Portrait Mr Skinner
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I could not agree more. The fact is that it would be a breath of fresh air away from Brexit. That is my selling point. This is something that the Government will be remembered for. I will tell Mick Clapham on the phone that it is on its way and all the rest of it. It is an exercise away from the torment of Brexit, which even I never thought would reach this stage of argument. I have been voting for about 10 or 15 years—almost on my own—against every treaty. When I used to walk into the Lobby, I would sometimes bump into our leader, and I would say, “What are you doing here?” I used to think that I should have been on my own. However, we are not arguing about that today, because we want to concentrate on this issue.

I want to commend my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale (Mike Amesbury) on the Front Bench, who has put the case very well indeed. With all my experience of representing people in the pits, I know how difficult that can be. I want to ensure that we make something out of this, and that yearly increase would be marvellous.

I thank everybody who has taken part in this important mini debate. When we think about the problem of mesothelioma and asbestos, we realise just how lucky we are to escape from it. Many of us go through life never realising that we are so close to all these things. My father was the same; he worked for 50 years in the pit, and when he went for the pneumoconiosis tests, he was told that he had it but he did not qualify for the scheme because the level was less than 10%. I have found countless others who fell into the same trap. I ask the Minister to look at the question of pneumoconiosis, because although it would not make any difference to my father—he went a long time ago—the truth is that a lot of people need a helping hand in that regard. I was speaking to one today.

I thank everybody for taking part in this important debate. It means that people suffering from mesothelioma will be regarded in a different light than they were before. People will understand that they are not the forgotten few who have been left on the shelf. There are still thousands of people with pneumoconiosis, particularly in the mining areas and especially in Wales. I found out about the levels in Wales through my own experience working in the pits. It may have been because of the anthracite—I am not sure. It is pretty clear that miners in Wales mined a lot of anthracite, and pneumoconiosis levels there were sky-high compared with some other areas’ mining districts. That is something to remember.

I compliment everybody who has taken part in this debate. It is very important and it means a lot to the people who are suffering and hanging on, especially those with mesothelioma and those who have been affected by asbestos, with pleural plaques and everything else. Believe me, this condition is almost like a death sentence the moment that people get it. Pneumoconiosis is slightly different from a medical point of view.

Paul Scully Portrait Paul Scully (Sutton and Cheam) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way near the end of his speech. I just want to echo his thanks. It is 30 years and one month exactly to the day when my father died of mesothelioma, having served his apprenticeship at the docks in Glasgow and in Burma before then. He was not able to claim and my mother was not able to claim at the time because she did not know how to go about it, so I thank everybody for the work that has been done.

Dennis Skinner Portrait Mr Skinner
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Well, the story goes on and if I can stay on my feet long enough, there will be some more. There is no doubt that mesothelioma has affected a lot of people, whereas pneumoconiosis was almost entirely connected to the mining districts. The truth is that this a killer disease, and we have to keep our eye on the issue and assist in all the ways that we possibly can, today and in the future. We shall all be on the phone to tell our friends that we managed to get this issue discussed and debated in a way that means it is not a static thing—that a lot of us have decided it would be a good idea to always remember them.

14:14
Sarah Newton Portrait Sarah Newton
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is an absolute pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner). He probably does not realise how much we have in common. It was wonderful to hear him talk about when he came into the House back in 1970, when the subject of his maiden speech was mining in his constituency. When I had the privilege of being elected to represent my home in Cornwall in 2010, the subject of my maiden speech was very much my community and my ancestors, who were Cornish miners. They were mining different things—minerals, tin in particular—but of course suffered the same risks of exposure to dust. In our case it is silica dust rather than coal dust. I have always had the passion, as the hon. Gentleman does, to speak up for those people in my constituency and for my ancestors. My grandfather worked in the docks in Falmouth and was exposed to the very risks that so many hon. Members have spoken about this afternoon.

The hon. Member for Bolsover and others have asked why we are not automatically uprating these particular compensation schemes. Well, let me gently say that this debate makes a powerful case for why it is important that we do have an annual debate. I will absolutely think about what has been said about automatic uprating, but if we had automatically uprated the schemes this year and the provisions had gone through on a motion along with every other social security payment, would we have had the benefit of this debate? We have had the benefit of the hon. Gentleman reminding the House of the huge contribution of Mick Clapham. As he said, it is really important that we do not forget these things and that we do not forget the hard work that has been undertaken by colleagues from all over the House over many years. These are hard-won successes, so it is important that we take these opportunities to remember.

Mike Amesbury Portrait Mike Amesbury
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

This really is about doing the right thing and working together. Obviously we have heard very powerful historical stories from Members right across the Chamber, but automatic uprating is the right thing to do.

Sarah Newton Portrait Sarah Newton
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Of course we want to do the right thing, which is why we are here today, uprating the scheme. However, we should pause to reflect on the fact that this debate has enabled us to look at this dynamic situation; the hon. Member for Bolsover was absolutely right to describe it as such. My right hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning) said that he has doubts about some of the forecasts around the schemes. We have also heard from other Members who want us to look at research and at what more we can do. If we did not have the opportunity of this debate, how would hon. Members have been able to raise those matters? I will seriously look at the question of an automatic uprating, but today has also proved the importance of giving hope to so many constituents through such a debate.

Mike Penning Portrait Sir Mike Penning
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister is being very generous and the House is listening very carefully because this is such an important debate. This House is not going to turn down the uprating—never would. But we could actually have a proper debate on this subject through the Backbench Business Committee or in Government time. Actually, half the things that we have been talking about today are nothing to do with what is actually on the Order Paper, with all due respect, Mr Deputy Speaker; we have been having a more general discussion. That is probably the answer. I accept that the Minister has to take this question away, but this is a golden opportunity to say that this House accepts that the scheme should be automatically uprated. We should then have a general debate on the issues, but that should not be a reason not to uprate the schemes.

Sarah Newton Portrait Sarah Newton
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My right hon. Friend makes a really important point. I have already committed to taking this matter away, but this debate has been very valuable. As we have seen from the quality and range of contributions, this debate has allowed the time for Members to raise a lot of important matters. Quite rightly, we have roamed far and wide, but this was an important debate none the less.

Peter Grant Portrait Peter Grant
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Following on from the comments of the right hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning), with respect I do not think that the opportunity for us to talk to ourselves—and possibly to people watching—for an hour or so justifies the potential uncertainty for sufferers. Just now, they do not know how much they are going to get next year or the year after. I would quite happily forgo the chance to listen to my own voice for 10 minutes if I knew that my constituents could be certain for the rest of their lives that their payments would always keep up with inflation. This is the fourth time in three weeks that businesses has collapsed hours early, so there are plenty of other opportunities—through the Backbench Business Committee and elsewhere—to have these debates if Members so wish. I appreciate that the Minister cannot give a definite answer from the Dispatch Box just now, but I really hope that she will take this point back to her colleagues and come back with a positive answer at some point in the future.

Sarah Newton Portrait Sarah Newton
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am happy to confirm what I have already confirmed to other hon. Members across the House—that I am absolutely happy to take that away and look at it.

I thank the hon. Member for Weaver Vale (Mike Amesbury) for his support for these upratings. He asked me a number of questions that I would of course very much like to answer. Before doing so, I join him in paying respect to his constituent Brian Jamieson. One of the things the hon. Gentleman asked me about was engaging with unions. Of course, trade unions play a really vital role in our society. I have already had a meeting with the National Union of Mineworkers, together with the hon. Member for North West Durham (Laura Pidcock), where we talked about a range of issues that the hon. Gentleman raised today. I will continue that dialogue, as well as meeting the Union of Democratic Mineworkers too.

Nick Smith Portrait Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

This debate reminds me of my own grandfather, George Winter, who suffered from pneumoconiosis. I cannot remember the exact percentage he had, but it was high, as was true of many miners in Tredegar in south Wales, where I am from. He was crushed in a pit fall in the Ty Trist colliery in Tredegar in his thirties. He had a broken femur and a crushed ribcage, and he was hospitalised for nine months. He always taught me, as I am sure that many Labour Members have been taught, that the trade unions were the most important vehicle for promoting good health and safety to make sure that people were respected and looked after at work.

Sarah Newton Portrait Sarah Newton
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Gentleman for sharing with us the tragic case of his grandfather. That reminds us, as so many colleagues have done today, of the sacrifices that people have made in these essential industries. So much of what we look around at has been created by people who made the sacrifice of working in these very, very physically demanding and dangerous industries. He is right to remind us of the sacrifices that the families have made.

The hon. Member for Glenrothes (Peter Grant) recognised—I join him in this—the work of Willie Clarke and John MacDougall, and other NUM officials, in creating the schemes that we have before us today. He also talked about Peter Quinn, his grandfather, and his premature death as a result of exposure to asbestos. We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully) about his father, who died 30 years ago. That really shows how the exposure to these dusts has had such a catastrophic effect on so many people’s lives, not only in this House but across our country.

I am absolutely delighted that the former Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead, was able to join us today and speak so passionately, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch). I recognise the really important contributions that they both made, as well as the former Member for Wythenshawe and Sale, in bringing in the 2014 diffuse mesothelioma payment scheme. As was so rightly pointed out, that filled the gaps in the schemes we are talking about today, meaning that many, many more people are getting financial support.

I want to add my own tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford—our meso warrior. This really shows the difference that individual Members of Parliament can make in this House by banding together with other colleagues to make such important changes to people’s lives. I take on board her very sensible suggestion that we look at the age of people when they are diagnosed as well as their occupation. We need to be constantly looking for new trends to make sure that we are aware of people working in new or different occupations who had hitherto been thought not to be so directly affected and who might benefit from these schemes. I know that she takes a particular interest in teachers and teaching.

Tracey Crouch Portrait Tracey Crouch
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I perhaps ought to put it on the record that, because of my passionate speech on Second Reading of the Mesothelioma Bill, when it was quite clear that I wanted to make changes to the legislation, my right hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning), as the Minister at the time, made sure that I was not put on the Bill Committee. Newer Members of the House looking to make a difference in this place should perhaps make a more anodyne contribution on Second Reading and then do their bit in Committee.

Sarah Newton Portrait Sarah Newton
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is a doughty parliamentary campaigner, and she shares a very interesting tip with newer Members of the House.

I am very happy to take away my hon. Friend’s suggestion, which was powerfully backed up by the former Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead, that we should look at the surplus within the scheme, which is funded by a levy on the industry. Those surpluses could well be used for further research. I will take that away and look at it. It was rightly pointed out that we need to be very mindful of future projections about the numbers of people who might be affected to make sure that the scheme has adequate funding to meet any future unanticipated needs. I will look at that again to determine whether there is more that we could do on that.

I want to reassure the House on the two points raised about what more the Health and Safety Executive is doing to raise awareness of the risks of asbestosis, especially in schools. The Department for Education and the HSE have been working for long periods on what more can be done to be raise awareness of the good management of asbestos, whether in hospitals or in schools. The Department for Education has taken a real interest in this. There is now a new assurance scheme that started last March, and funding is made available through the Department for the upgrading of school facilities. We are making a lot of progress in assessing the risk and skilling people up to manage asbestos when they find it and then ultimately replace it. The Health and Safety Executive is always informing all the different workplaces of the risks of asbestos and what can be done to reduce them.

It is absolutely fair to say that the Health and Safety Executive has had to make efficiency savings in its budgets over the past few years. However, in no way, shape or form can one say that that is leading it not to be able to do its job well. When I meet the chief executive and the chairman, as I do regularly, they tell me that they have the resources that they need to keep people safe at work. We have only to look at the evidence of what is happening in workplaces to see that the HSE has been innovative and creative, working in partnership with others. As I said in my opening speech, there are far fewer people acquiring injuries, and having fatal injuries, at work. That is to the great credit of the Health and Safety Executive, as I think a lot of Members across the House have recognised.

Finally, there is the question of the equalisation of the sums that are paid out between the people who are directly affected by the conditions and their loved ones. The same issue is raised each time this debate is held. The Government’s view is that it is most important that the funding is given to the people with the condition who would most benefit from it. Of course, I fully understand that families can be devastated and very badly affected, but there is still the recognition that they are able to get compensation, even if it is not at the same level. When we have to make decisions about how we use our precious resources—the taxpayers’ money that is available—it is only right that we target that money by giving it to the people to whom it can make the biggest difference.

We have had a really excellent debate in which we have managed to raise a lot of issues around the health service, education, the Health and Safety Executive, and research. I am very grateful for Members’ contributions and for the support across the House for these very important schemes that are having a very positive impact on people’s lives. I look forward to working with Members who have asked to meet me on how we can work even more closely together and make an even more positive contribution.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the draft Mesothelioma Lump Sum Payments (Conditions and Amounts) (Amendment) Regulations 2019, which were laid before this House on 15 January, be approved.

Resolved,

That the draft Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) (Payment of Claims) (Amendment) Regulations 2019, which were laid before this House on 15 January, be approved.—(Sarah Newton.)

Business without Debate

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
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Delegated Legislation

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
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Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

With the leave of the House, we shall take motions 4 to 8 together.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),

Exiting the European Union (Private International Law)

That the draft Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, which were laid before this House on 12 December 2018, be approved.

Exiting the European Union (Financial Services)

That the draft Financial Markets and Insolvency (Amendment and Transitional Provision) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, which were laid before this House on 13 December 2018, be approved.

Exiting the European Union (Diamond trading)

That the draft Kimberley Process Certification Scheme (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, which were laid before this House on 20 December 2018, be approved.

Exiting the European Union (Road Traffic)

That the draft Drivers’ Hours and Tachographs (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, which were laid before this House on 14 January, be approved.

Local Government

That the draft Buckinghamshire (Structural Changes) (Modification of the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007) Regulations 2019, which were laid before this House on 14 January, be approved.—(Michelle Donelan.)

Question agreed to.

Petitions

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
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14:29
Graham P Jones Portrait Graham P. Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am always proud to represent my constituency of Haslingden and Hyndburn, and I certainly am this evening, in presenting this petition for Fairfield Nursery in Accrington West. I visit Fairfield quite regularly. It is an outstanding nursery within a deprived community, and it provides high-quality provision to a very high standard. Like most Members who are presenting petitions on this issue, the nurseries in my constituency are excellent or outstanding and often cater for the most vulnerable children and children with needs—children who require the highest quality of support, which may be withdrawn from them. Fairfield faces numerous other problems. I want the Government to understand that this is about not just the unfair funding formula, but numerous other issues. I present this petition on behalf of the parents, careers, staff and governors of Fairfield maintained nursery school in Accrington, and there are 89 signatories to it.

Following is the full text of the petition:

[The petition of the parents, careers, staff and governors of Fairfield maintained nursery school in Accrington

Declares that we are concerned about the future of maintained nursery schools in England after March 2020 as no guarantee has been given by government that adequate funding will continue when supplementary funding ends.

The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons to urge the government to take action to ensure nursery schools are financially sustainable for the future.

And the petitioners remain, etc.]

[P002331]

Melanie Onn Portrait Melanie Onn (Great Grimsby) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I rise to present this petition relating to the future secure funding of state-maintained nurseries on behalf of Great Coates Village Nursery School, which is one of two outstanding nurseries in my constituency. This is the second time in my two-year campaign to save those nurseries that I have presented a petition to Government. I have had meetings with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and Ministers to discuss funding for state-maintained nurseries. Children, former students, parents, staff and the local communities in Scartho and Great Coates place great value in these welcoming and cherished early years providers, which are sometimes the only settings that will take physically and learning disabled children and provide them with a high level of education in a suitable environment, where all children play and learn together, regardless of their background, ability or disability. I urge the Government to recognise that there is no time to waste when it comes to the funding of state-maintained nurseries. I present this petition, to which there are 81 signatories, on behalf of parents, carers, staff and governors of Great Coates Village maintained nursery school in Grimsby.

Following is the full text of the petition:

[The petition of the parents, carers, staff and governors of Great Coates Village maintained nursery school in Grimsby.

Declares that we are concerned about the future of maintained nursery schools in England after March 2020 as no guarantee has been given by the Government that adequate funding will continue when supplementary funding ends.

The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons to urge the Government to take action to ensure nursery schools are financially sustainable for the future.

And the petitioners remain, etc]

[P002399]

Peter Bone Portrait Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I would like to present a petition on behalf of my constituents about delivering a

“Brexit which people voted for.”

The petition is so heavy and so many people—thousands—have signed it, that the Doorkeeper kindly brought it into the Chamber and took it out. It is the first time that a petition has had such a large number of signatures that I have had to do that.

The lead names on the petition are Andy Mercer, chairman of Wellingborough Conservative Association; Helen Harrison, chair of Corby and East Northamptonshire Conservative Association; and John Vickers, president of Wellingborough Conservative Association. They are all not only long-standing Conservatives but devoted to the local community. If I read the petition, Members will see why my residents are so enraged.

The petition, to the honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled, states:

The Humble Petition of the residents of Wellingborough, Northamptonshire and the surrounding areas,

Sheweth,

That the Petitioners believe that the Brexit that they voted for should be adhered to by Her Majesty’s Government. This includes, ending the free-movement of people from the EU and control immigration, stop sending billions and billions of £s each year to Brussels, make our own laws in our own country, judges by our own judges.

Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable House urges the Prime Minister to take in account the concerns of petitioners and deliver a Brexit which people voted for.

And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray, &c.

[P002401]

Karen Buck Portrait Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

As the former long-standing chair of the Campaign for Real Nursery Education, I am pleased to present a petition on behalf of parents and staff at the Portman nursery in Church Street, which is one of the most deprived communities in the whole country, with a long history of providing superb and integrated nursery education for children. The Portman, the Mary Paterson and the Dorothy Gardner nurseries in my constituency were prototypes for the original model of children’s centres, but they are now sadly again struggling with an undermining of their funding. That is doing so much to diminish the excellent quality of early years experience, which we should be cherishing, rather than diluting. I am pleased to support the parents, as I have done for a great many years, and to urge the Government to ensure that we cherish our centres of excellence and do not diminish the quality of education they provide.

Following is the full text of the petition:

[The parents, carers, staff and governors of Portman Early Childhood Centre maintained nursery school in London

Declares that we are concerned about the future of maintained nursery schools in England after March 2020 as no guarantee has been given by the Government that adequate funding will continue when supplementary funding ends.

The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons to urge the Government to take action to ensure nursery schools are financially sustainable for the future.

And the petitioners remain, etc]

[P002410]

Prostate Cancer

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
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Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Michelle Donelan.)
14:29
Simon Hoare Portrait Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I rise to open this five-hour Adjournment debate—that was a joke, Mr Deputy Speaker. This debate is certainly timely, given that on Monday this week we celebrated the 20th anniversary of World Cancer Day, and many Members will have attended the event held by Cancer Research UK in Portcullis House this morning. It is timely given the more than welcome announcement by the Treasury and the Department of Health and Social Care of record investment coming into the national health service. It is timely because we have the Government’s welcome and focused cancer strategy. It is timely because at no other time in our history have Government and health campaigners and providers had a greater communication platform to reach out to members of the public and explain, inform and educate. Finally, this debate is also timely because this week, under the auspices of my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Maria Caulfield), who has considerable nursing experience, we have seen the launch of the all-party parliamentary group on male cancers, including prostate cancer.

We need to recognise that cancer is still feared in this country. Terms such as “battle, “fight” and “lost the crusade” against cancer are used in countless obituaries, which testifies to that fear. I hope that we all take heart from the commitment in this important health area shown by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine). That should provide us with a reservoir of optimism about the seriousness and determination of the Department on these issues.

It may just be something to do with my sex—I am not sure—but all the statistics and all the anecdotes tell us that men appear to have a greater aversion to going to the doctor and asking questions about their health than our female counterparts, and certainly anything below the waist is to be avoided at all costs because it is going to be painful, embarrassing and undignified.

I pause for a moment to reflect on the absolute honesty that we have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch (Rachel Maclean), and indeed the clarity of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister at the Dispatch Box during a recent Prime Minister’s questions, about cervical cancer testing—admitting some of the inhibitions, but, given the importance, exhorting people to take those tests. I do not think that I hear such exhortations and frank honesty from men about this health issue.

Nick Smith Portrait Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I commend the hon. Gentleman for his leadership and for securing this important debate. I have been along to the World Cancer Day event today, where I was told that more than a third of cancer cases can be prevented, and another third can be cured if detected early and treated properly. The message he is sending out today is really important for us to share across the whole country.

Simon Hoare Portrait Simon Hoare
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and I will turn to diagnosis in a moment.

Let me return to the point I made a moment or so ago about fear. We will all have had family and close friends experience being given a diagnosis of prostate cancer or, indeed, other cancers, and the first thing is always to face that in a very black mood and think that there is absolutely no cure. However, we know that there are scientists—clever men and women—striving every day to find such cures. Indeed, life expectancy post an early diagnosis is of course getting better and better. Rightly, we place huge emphasis on breast and cervical cancers, but I suggest to the Minister that, in the shape of male cancers, we need to up the game in communication and education as well.

Some statistics on prostate cancer, provided by Prostate Cancer UK, may be of help to the House. Prostate cancer is the most common male cancer in our country: 47,000 men are diagnosed each year. One in eight men will get prostate cancer, and every 45 minutes one man dies of it in our country. Men over 50—I turned 50 this year, so I do not know whether—[Hon. Members: “No.”] I know; it is almost impossible to believe. I am not sure whether I should therefore declare an interest, but men over 50 are more prone to it, particularly if they have a family history.

A statistic I have learned—I am yet to find any particular reason for it—is that black men are far more at risk of contracting prostate cancer: one in four will get it. Someone’s risk of prostate cancer is heightened—again, this was a new fact to me—if their mother or their sister has had breast cancer. I wonder how many people recognise that and see that, if a female in the family is diagnosed with breast cancer, that should act as a spur for them to go and have a test. In 2016, 11,631 men died of prostate cancer in the UK alone.

At our party conference last year, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said:

“The key to boosting your chance of surviving cancer is early diagnosis… Through our Cancer Strategy, we will increase the early detection rate… We will do it by…investing in the very latest scanners.”

Mary Glindon Portrait Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important Adjournment debate. As well as early diagnosis, this is about people’s awareness that they themselves may possibly have the symptoms. When my husband was diagnosed, he just thought he had a chill. Unfortunately, his is incurable, but he thought no more about it than that he had a chill. An even more important issue than having screening is that we should be aware of our bodies.

Simon Hoare Portrait Simon Hoare
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Lady makes an incredibly telling point, because unless people know what the full range of symptoms are, they do not really know what they should be thinking and whether one of those symptoms or a combination of them should actually trigger a visit to their doctor in the first instance. I think she is absolutely right that we need a better understanding.

This goes back to a point I made a moment or two ago. Because this is a below-the-waist issue and we men get frightfully embarrassed about those sorts of things, we are inclined to say that it might just be something else or that it will pass, and so on. However, for too many people, it is left too late to have any meaningful, beneficial outcome as and when they eventually go to see their GP and then trigger the referral process.

Mark Tami Portrait Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we can concentrate on all the negatives, but we have to get across that people are surviving and, more than surviving, actually living well? We have to present that because, with some cancers, there is still the idea that if someone gets it, “Well, that’s it then”.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Order. May I just read out the deferred Division result?

Simon Hoare Portrait Simon Hoare
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We wait with bated breath.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Deputy Speaker
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Absolutely.

I have now to announce the result of today’s deferred Division. In respect of the question relating to long- term investment funds, the Ayes were 302 and the Noes were 262, so the Ayes have it.

[The Division list is published at the end of today’s debates.]

I must inform the House that there were errors in calculating the number of votes of Members for English and Welsh constituencies and for English constituencies in Divisions yesterday on the police grant and the local government finance report. On the police grant, the figures for the England and Wales-only vote should not have been announced as 289 for the Ayes and 242 for the Noes; they should have been announced as— Ayes 289 and Noes 244. On the local government finance report, the figures for the England-only vote should not have been announced as 270 for the Ayes and 208 for the Noes; they should have been announced as— Ayes 270 and Noes 206. The results are unaffected.

Simon Hoare Portrait Simon Hoare
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

A restless nation will sit easier in their armchairs knowing that, and we are grateful to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for your public service announcement.

To respond to the intervention from the right hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami), I think he is absolutely right that we—not just Ministers, but health practitioners and all of us in our communities—need to stress again and again the widening range of treatments, the recovery rates and the extra lifespan one can have after early diagnosis and treatment. I suppose it is a perfectly legitimate historical response to have to such a diagnosis, but we need to end once and for all people saying, “Well, that’s it. I’ve had my chips.” To say, “You know, let’s see what we can do with the rest of it”, and in effect give up, is absolutely the worst thing that one could do.

May I raise the subject of diagnosis with the Minister? To pause there, I am not saying this to ingratiate myself with my hon. Friend, but the understanding and sensitivity that he brings to these issues and, indeed, to his wider portfolio commands respect across the House. I think we are very lucky to have him, and I am particularly pleased that my hon. Friend is the Minister replying to this debate.

Mark Francois Portrait Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

On that point, I had the privilege of attending an event that the Minister addressed a couple of weeks ago, and I was struck by the passion with which he spoke about this subject. I entirely endorse what my hon. Friend has said about the Minister’s commitment. In passing, I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this very important Adjournment debate, and may I assure him that, when it comes to fighting prostate cancer, this is something on which he and I see absolutely eye to eye?

Simon Hoare Portrait Simon Hoare
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. I think we both stand at roughly 5 feet 6 or 7 inches, although I might be slightly taller than him when he is in his stocking feet. I get his reference and it is delightful to see eye to eye with him.

Jim Cunningham Portrait Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I wonder what you two want out of the Minister, given that you are giving him so much praise. Having said that, I am sure the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) will agree that the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence has sometimes been slow in making progress on treatments, as we have seen with other health problems. I echo his words that, simply put, men just do not like to tell anybody when they are not well. When people tell me that they have an illness like prostate cancer, they often say, “But don’t tell anybody.” The big problem is getting men to realise that they have to do something early, and the person who finds the answer to that very difficult issue will have done a great service.

Simon Hoare Portrait Simon Hoare
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I agree. In answer to the first part of the hon. Gentleman’s intervention, which I presume was rhetorical, I just want the Minister to carry on with the excellent work he is doing. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that we need to blow away the cloak of secrecy and, sometimes, shame and embarrassment. No family represented in this House will not have heard an aunt or an uncle say, in slightly hushed tones and that silent mouthed way, best exemplified by Les Dawson, that they have the big C. It is as though they cannot quite bring themselves to annunciate the word, in case it brings a plague upon their house. We have to brush all that away.

I am absolutely determined to get on to the issue that I want the Minister to address, which is what I was trying to do about 16 interventions ago. I urge him to grasp the opportunity—provided not least by the additional funding—for efficient, cost-effective and easier diagnosis. I appreciate that there is a whole range of things in the marketplace, but during my research I have been particularly struck by the opportunities presented by the pre-biopsy multiparametric MRI scan. We have a problem, because while demand for MRI scans rose by 30% between 2013 and 2016, this country still has fewer MRI scanners per head of the population than other countries with comparable populations. The additional moneys available provide a golden opportunity to do something about that.

Of course, it is never just a question of cash and kit, so allied with that are the people who can use the kit. The workforce are key. In addressing the issue of money and the benefits it can provide, we should note that we will not realise its full potential if we are short on workforce. The 10% vacancy rate in the national health service cannot be allowed to become the norm. Prostate cancer patients need and would like more clinical nurse specialists, who have the empathy and expertise to provide comfort, hope and a guiding hand. It is difficult to recruit in any specialist nurse area, but that should not put us off the endeavour.

Likewise, we need a recruitment drive for more radiologists. Prostate Cancer UK estimates that an additional 23 to 31 radiologists are needed in the UK. The Royal College of Radiologists estimates that in the financial year 2016-17, a whopping £116 million was spent on the outsourcing and insourcing of radiological skills additional to core contracted hours. To put that in perspective, £116 million would buy about 1,300 full-time consultant radiologists.

As I have said, raising public awareness of prostate cancer—its signs, symptoms, diagnosis and treatment—is pivotal, but so too is the reinforcement of messages from the Department, NHS England and others to our general practitioners. We all know that there is a growing problem of finding people who are interested in and prepared to enter general practice. The myriad drugs that come on to market and myriad other conditions make the already demanding life of a GP ever more so.

I recently met Jim Davis, the chairman of the Dorset branch of the Prostate Cancer Support Organisation, a charity that covers Hampshire, Dorset and Sussex. It is run for men diagnosed with prostate cancer, by patients with prostate cancer. Last year, they held 23 free prostate-specific antigen testing events, which delivered those tests for 4,813 men. They have found that people are more inclined to go into that sort of environment than to their GP surgery. Their work involves—as a Hampshire Member of Parliament, the Minister may already know this—raising money, advertising the tests and hiring village halls and other places. Men then come and have the test, which is sent—in effect, the work is subcontracted—to the local hospital, which analyses it and sends back the results. I will not detain the Minister, but I could read out a whole legion of extracts from letters from grateful men who availed themselves of that opportunity and found their life chances and health much improved.

Although the national health service says that any man over 50 is entitled to a free PSA test, evidence suggests that some GPs—I stress the word “some”, but one is too many—are either unaware of that entitlement or express and demonstrate an unwillingness to refer. Last May, David Radbourne, the director of commissioning operations at NHS England South East, wrote in response to a letter from Jim, who had produced a list of affected patients:

“If there are individuals who feel they are being refused legitimate access to this test…please ask them to file a complaint through the appropriate NHS complaints process.”

I say to my hon. Friend the Minister that in those circumstances, people should not be forced to go through an NHS complaints process. Like other campaigners, I see a lacuna, or an information gap—call it what you will—among certain GPs, and I urge the Department to consider ways in which to plug it. That issue needs to be addressed quickly. The official in the Box is waving a piece of paper and the Parliamentary Private Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Erewash (Maggie Throup), is up on her feet with alacrity, as always.

The Public Health England advisory note, “Advising well men aged 50 and over about the PSA test for prostate cancer”, needs to be reviewed and updated. It states:

“GPs should use their clinical judgement”.

That is a pejorative term—it is an open term—so perhaps that language should be revisited. The approach needs to be a little more robust.

Nick Smith Portrait Nick Smith
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Gentleman is making a really important point. I am over 50, but I did not know about the test. Does he know how many men over 50 as a proportion of the population have had the test?

Simon Hoare Portrait Simon Hoare
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am sure that I have come across that figure in my research, but I do not have it to hand. However, as I mentioned in my introductory remarks, the platforms to inform, encourage and educate us all as health citizens, for want of a better phrase, that we seem to avail ourselves of very much relate to—this is not a criticism; it is perfectly correct—cervical cancer, breast cancer and other cancers. The opportunity presented by additional funding and by the very welcome cancer strategy should now allow us all to give—I do not know whether this is quite the right phrase—parity of esteem between male and female cancers. Cancer has a devastating effect on family irrespective of which member has it. I am afraid I cannot answer that query, but the Minister may have that figure. As it is an entitlement, I urge as many men over 50 as possible to see it as routine and regular as going to the optician or the dentist.

In conclusion, with the cancer strategy, fantastic levels of funding and the active commitment, energy and understanding shown by Ministers in the Department, now is the time to make positive progress.

15:01
Steve Brine Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Steve Brine)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is always a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. Here we are again and for once we are not in a rush. It will be dark outside before we finish. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) on securing today’s important debate. He entertained us and educated us, and he set out his stall very well.

Let us start with a positive: cancer survival in this country has never been better. Survival rates are at their best ever, having improved every year since 2010. That is a hard-fought success, and we should celebrate it. Among men, prostate cancer is the most common cancer in the UK and the second most common cause of cancer deaths. However, prostate cancer survival has tripled in the past 40 years, with 85% of men surviving for five or more years.

It is worth stating at the outset—some people who are watching may not be familiar with this subject—that the prostate is found only in men. It produces some of the fluid in semen and is found below the bladder. It is about the size of a walnut and surrounds the urethra, the tube that carries urine from the bladder. The causes of prostate cancer are not that well known. The strongest risk factor is age, but about 5% to 10% of prostate cancer is thought to be due to family history. Black men, whether of black African or black Caribbean origin, are more likely to develop prostate cancer than white men. One in four will get the disease, as opposed to one in eight of all men. Asian and oriental men have the lowest chance of developing prostate cancer, which is interesting—we should always look at this sort of data when looking at prevention. I will come on to that point.

The way that prostate cancer develops is not fully understood. It is not a single disease, but a spectrum of diseases ranging from slow-growing tumours that may not cause any symptoms and may not shorten life at all to very aggressive tumours that can kill. We should remember that. As I said, the strongest risk factor is age, but younger people get it, too. I have a school friend who has recently contracted and beaten—I will come on to the use of language in a moment—prostate cancer. He may even be watching today’s debate; he may be mowing the lawn, who knows? We wish him well.

My hon. Friend raised some very good points in his speech, and I should be able to touch on them all. This is a timely debate for all the reasons he set out, but also because it was World Cancer Day on Monday. It was great to see Cancer Research UK light up the Palace of Westminster in pink and blue.

My hon. Friend’s point about language was very interesting. He may have seen a poll by Macmillan that came out last month. It showed how many people with cancer are fed up with the language of war. We often say “cancer stricken” or “victim”. We often call a person’s cancer diagnosis a “war” or a “battle”. We say that they “lost their battle” or “lost their fight” when they pass away. It is no surprise that articles in the media and posts on social networks were found to be the worst offenders. My advice is to be real and honest. Macmillan has launched the “Right there with you” campaign to highlight the challenges posed by a cancer diagnosis and the support that is available. As we all know, Macmillan does fantastic work, including in this House. I urge people to take a look at its campaign.

My hon. Friend also touched on the all-party group on male cancers, formed by my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Maria Caulfield) who is a former nurse. It had one of its first gatherings this week. Orchid, the male cancer charity, will provide the secretariat for the group. It is not that well known as a charity, but it is growing fast. I met the charity at Britain against Cancer a couple of years ago, and it is now part of my cancer roundtable work here in the House every quarter. I pay tribute to its works and to the all-party group. I had a good conversation in the Lobby with my hon. Friend last night. We are going to do an awful lot together. The group is very important. If it did not exist, it would need to be invented, and I congratulate her on inventing it.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset raised early diagnosis, so let us deal with that. The biggest weapon we have in successfully treating cancer is early diagnosis. I have said many times, as did the former chair of the all-party group on cancer, that it is the magic key or magic bullet. That is true, but there are many cancers where early diagnosis is all but impossible. We do not see presentation of symptoms until it is very late and then it becomes incredibly difficult. They will be a big challenge for the cancer ambition that I will come on to talk about in a moment.

As my hon. Friend and others said, we men are notorious for not visiting the doctor at the first sign of a concerning symptom. I think that that is changing, but anything that can raise awareness of prostate cancer, where early diagnosis is indeed the magic key, is to be welcomed. I pay tribute to public figures such as Stephen Fry and Bill Turnbull from “BBC News” for speaking out so honestly about their own prostate cancer diagnosis. They provided an invaluable public service in raising the profile and awareness of the disease, giving some men the vital nudge they need to see their GP if they think something is not right. For some men, it can be a quick burst of symptoms that come on very quickly. They can go to a doctor, are seen and treated and have surgery in a very short space of time. For others, it can be a very slow burn.

I hope that the work that Stephen Fry, Bill Turnbull and others have done will have an impact similar to 10 years ago when the TV personality Jade Goody, following her cervical cancer diagnosis from which tragically she died, spoke out about how vital it was for women to attend their smear tests. We had an excellent debate in Westminster Hall last week on Natasha’s Army—there is that word again. Natasha was a 31-year-old mother from Newton Abbott who died of cervical cancer, leaving four young children just before Christmas. Natasha’s Army are her friends and family who campaign on awareness and smear tests. That is so important. The work Jade Goody did led to a huge uptake in screening, enabling the NHS to detect and treat more cancers early. I hope that, as more people talk about prostate cancer, something similar can happen.

Nick Smith Portrait Nick Smith
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I join the Minister in congratulating people like Stephen Fry and the grassroots movements on doing such a good job in talking about the importance of early diagnosis. The hon. Member for North Dorset talked about the important PSA test. The Minister may not have the figures available, but if he does could he let us know the proportion of men over 50 who have had the test? That would be an interesting indicator as to what is going on.

Steve Brine Portrait Steve Brine
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I do not have that figure with me today, but I will write to Members attending the debate and I will tweet it @BrineMinister—but enough of the advert.

Early diagnosis and the NHS long-term plan is where I want to turn next. Straight after the Christmas recess, we launched the NHS long-term plan, which is a seismic piece of work. I would be the first to say, along with many other people working clinically in the field, that we cannot rely solely on the celebrity cases that I mentioned to improve early diagnosis. The long-term plan included a comprehensive package of measures that will be rolled out across the country, with the aim of securing the Prime Minister’s promise, which my hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset spoke about, from party conference back in the autumn: that three quarters of all cancers will be detected at an early stage—stage 1 and stage 2, when they are most beatable—by 2028. The plan will provide new investment in state-of-the-art technology to transform the process of diagnosis and boost research and innovation, with the aim of ensuring that 55,000 more people are surviving cancer for five years in England every year from 2028.

That ambition refers to all cancers, including prostate. When we came out with that ambition, a number of people, in the breast cancer community, for instance, said, “But what about us? We are already above 75%”, and some said, in relation to the rarer and less survivable cancers, “What about us?” It is very important for me to restate at the Dispatch Box that this ambition does refer to all cancers—not just those that afflict men or women, old or young, or that are easily treatable or more difficult and less survivable. We are clear that to achieve the five-year survival ambition, we have to improve outcomes for all cancers, and we will.

As I said, early diagnosis is key. Early diagnosis of prostate cancer is challenging, in truth, because the symptoms are similar to those of an enlarged prostate and very often, there can be no symptoms at all. As has been said, the most common method of identifying an increased risk of localised prostate cancer is the prostate specific antigen test. However, that is not perfect. The House will have seen press reports a year or so ago stating that a raised PSA level is not necessarily a sign of prostate cancer, and that a low PSA level is not necessarily a sign of it not being there either. That is not entirely helpful, but we must always remember in these debates—and I am not a doctor, as is clear—that medicine is not an exact science. I thought that story was a good example of that.

A raised PSA level can indicate prostate cancer, but in some cases it can miss indicating a cancer. It can also suggest a cancer when there is not one, or identify slow-growing tumours that may never cause any symptoms for a man or shorten his natural lifespan. This can all be very difficult in primary care. My hon. Friend talked about GPs, and there is a clue in the name. I sometimes get a lot of flak for saying this, but general practitioners are so called for a reason—they are general practitioners—and we should remember the devilish job that general practitioners have, given the huge variety in what comes through their door.

The prostate cancer risk management programme—the PCRMP; we love our acronyms in the health service—was established so that men considering a PSA test are given information about the benefits, limitations, which I have touched on, and associated risks. It supports GPs in giving and discussing information with their male patients. A pack of materials is available for primary care to help men to make an informed choice about the PSA test, which includes a leaflet that they can take away to discuss with partners. There is also an evidence booklet and summary sheet for GPs. These are all widely available online.

As I said, there are pros and cons of having a PSA test, but it is so important that men arm themselves with as much information as they can and speak to their GP or practice nurse, including when they go for their NHS health checks—I will be going for one of those at the end of this month. I know that it is hard to believe that I am old enough to be called for one, but they phoned me yesterday, so I have been booked in.

As has been said, men over 50 have the right to be given a PSA test free on the NHS once they have discussed the advantages and disadvantages with their GP. The PCRMP makes that very clear to GPs, and, having discussed the pros and cons, no one over 50 should be told “No”, as we have heard today. I will find those figures—I agree that they will be very interesting.

Simon Hoare Portrait Simon Hoare
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am very grateful that the Minister is setting this out in his customary detail. In a circumstance in which all those conversations have taken place, if the patient says, “Thank you doctor, I hear what you say, but I am entitled to have this test, and I want to have this test done,” will the Minister confirm that GPs are obliged to make the referral, rather than saying, “Well, I’ve heard what you said, but I am your doctor and I am not going to let you have it done”?

Steve Brine Portrait Steve Brine
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We do not often use the term, “No decision about me, without me” any more, but I always remember the former Health Secretary—now Lord Lansley—using that a lot, and that is still very true. A patient over that age has every right to request a PSA test, and certainly even more so if they believe that they have symptoms. I would be very concerned about a GP refusing it—I think it would be extremely unlikely for one to do so in such instances—but any patient has the right of travel. Every patient has the right to change GP if they are not satisfied with the relationship that they have. If my hon. Friend did know of an instance of that, I would be very interested to hear about it—as, I suspect, would the Royal College of General Practitioners —but I would be very surprised.

I want to touch on screening, which we talk about a lot at the moment, and I will come on to why. Because of the limitations of the PSA test, there is currently no national screening programme for prostate cancer. In 2016, Prostate Cancer UK, which has been rightly lauded this afternoon, began work to help to develop tests that could form part of a national screening programme. This would potentially involve better blood tests, which are currently in development, combined with more advanced scanning. It is hoping to make that happen in the next five years—nothing happens quickly in this space unfortunately—and I am sure that we all welcome their efforts.

Members will be aware—I have spoken about this quite a lot in the House recently; we have had a number of cancer debates since Christmas—that Sir Mike Richards is leading a review for the Secretary of State of our current screening programmes. As part of that—I met Sir Mike last month—we will consider how we can make screening smarter, targeting those most at risk. We expect that Sir Mike’s work will have positive implications for future programmes. He is an incredibly experienced and respected figure in this space, and I hope that his work will enable us to roll screening out faster when the evidence base is there to support it. I am very hopeful and ambitious about that work, as I know Sir Mike is.

Let us talk about public awareness campaigns, which my hon. Friend mentioned in opening the debate. The Government have to do all that they can to raise awareness of prostate cancer and target high-risk groups, while recognising that there are limitations on how much the public will listen to public health messages from Ministers at the Dispatch Box—I know that it is hard to believe that people do not take this all to heart, but they do not, so we work with our partners.

In 2014, along with Public Health England, we worked on the phenomenally successful “Be Clear on Cancer” campaign, which has had a number of iterations, on prostate cancer in black men. The campaign messaging included:

“1 in 4 black men will get prostate cancer”,

which was one of its tag lines. It urged black men over 45 who were concerned about their risk of prostate cancer to visit their GPs. The campaign evaluation showed that it had stimulated new conversations about prostate cancer among families and the black community. Public Health England has made all the materials developed for the campaign available online, so that groups and other organisations can use them locally if they wish. They are very striking and powerful, and we believe that they were very successful.

We also welcome the work that Prostate Cancer UK is doing with the Football Association to raise awareness through their “relegate prostate cancer” campaign. It is fronted by high-profile celebrity football figures, including the England football manager, Gareth Southgate, and includes the slogan:

“One man dies every 45 minutes of prostate cancer”.

Anyone who can stay awake for “Match of the Day” on a Saturday night—thank goodness for the repeat on a Sunday morning—will see very many people, including the pundits and the managers interviewed afterwards, wearing the badge that I am wearing today. Members will be very familiar with that badge, which demonstrates the widespread support that Prostate Cancer UK has in continuing to raise awareness of this disease.

Let me turn to research, as I come to a conclusion. Research has played a crucial part in the advances that we have made in cancer survival over the past four decades. More than 15 years ago, the Department identified the need for further research into prostate cancer, and we have since worked closely with Cancer Research UK—it was here this morning; I was pleased to pop into its drop-in—Prostate Cancer UK, the Medical Research Council and others, through the National Cancer Research Institute, which is a strategic partnership of the major UK funders of cancer research. NCRI spend specifically on prostate cancer research increased from £17.1 million in 2011-12 to £26.5 million in 2015-16.

Mary Glindon Portrait Mary Glindon
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

On research, does the Minister think that those who are diagnosed with cancer should be encouraged to take part in clinical trials that aid research and help us to find ways to halt or even cure these horrendous diseases? I think this is underplayed and that we should encourage as many people as possible to help with research by themselves getting involved in trials.

Steve Brine Portrait Steve Brine
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am happy to agree with the hon. Lady. In her work on brain cancer, the late Baroness Jowell made the point about stimulating new research projects, and that work has been incredibly successful, including subsequent to her death. She also spoke a lot about clinical trials. Anybody diagnosed with a cancer for which there is no significant treatment would want to load the gun with the trial bullet, but there are challenges there. There is only so much that one can do, and there is a toxicity issue with moving from trial to trial that patients do not always fully appreciate, but in consultation with one’s oncologist and physician absolutely it has a critical role to play. Without trials, we would not have any of the treatments we have today, so I thank the hon. Lady for raising that point.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset said that women’s cancers, such as breast cancer and the gynaecological cancers, perhaps get more Government attention. I have to disagree. Last April, the Prime Minister pledged £75 million towards clinical trials for prostate cancer, which will focus on improving early diagnosis and survival rates as well as exploring options for different treatments for men affected by the disease. We expect 40,000 men to be recruited to new research projects with this cash boost. I hope this demonstrates our ongoing commitment to male cancers as well as female cancers.

I am the first guy to hold the post of Public Health Minister in a long time, possibly ever, and it is true that there is a lot of focus on female cancers, but I am determined to raise the bar for men’s health generally, but for male cancers in particular, which is why I was pleased to mention the all-party group earlier.

Alongside the £75 million for research, in 2016-17 the NIHR clinical research network recruited patients to over 90 trials—the hon. Member for North Tyneside (Mary Glindon) raised the point about trials—and other studies on prostate cancer, so there are a lot of trials in this area. The NIHR biomedical research centre at The Royal Marsden here in London and the Institute of Cancer Research also have a five-year £3.1 million prostate cancer research theme.

I started by saying that we do not know everything about prostate cancer. We hope to see these projects deliver more personalised diagnosis, treatment and care of men with prostate cancer through better understanding of the molecular and genetic pathways that determine the non-uniform nature of prostate cancer. The prostate testing for cancer and treatment—ProtecT—trial was the largest publicly funded clinical trial ever to take place in the UK. NIHR funding to date is £40million, which is quite a significant sum.

I agree with what my hon. Friend said about the workforce. The NHS is nothing without the 1.3 million staff on whom patients depend day and night, and for no group is that more true than for cancer patients. We will not achieve our cancer ambitions without an increased cancer workforce, which is why the Secretary of State has commissioned Baroness Dido Harding, working closely with Sir David Behan, who used to lead the Care Quality Commission, to lead a number of programmes to engage with key NHS stakeholders to develop a detailed workforce implementation plan. Baroness Harding and Sir David will present initial recommendations to the Department in March, and these will consider detailed proposals for growing the workforce rapidly alongside the implementation of the NHS long-term plan, including that early diagnosis of cancer target I mentioned.

In connection with that, my hon. Friend mentioned cancer nurse specialists. Health Education England is working to expand the number of cancer nurse specialists and to develop their competencies and routes into training. This will mean every cancer patient having access to a CNS or other support worker by 2021, which I think he will agree is a very good thing.

I have covered today just some of the many initiatives the Government are undertaking in our significant efforts to tackle prostate cancer for many of our constituents, including my friend. I hope I have given the House some information today and a promise of some more. The Government remain totally committed to maintaining and improving cancer survival rates. Prostate cancer is the second-biggest cancer killer among men and is right at the top of our list of priorities.

Finally, I could not close without paying tribute to Prostate Cancer UK, led by Angela Culhane, and the work it does on research and early diagnosis and in supporting men with prostate cancer and reassuring them that they are not alone and that there is often a way out. As cancer Minister, I have been told many times by cancer patients that the cliff edge of an all clear is every bit as bad as the original diagnosis. Owing to our successes, people are living much longer and perfectly normal and full lives after cancer, but we need to support them better, so I pay tribute to the work of Prostate Cancer UK. Its work is invaluable, as is that of all those members of staff who make the NHS what it is. I thank everybody for taking part in today’s debate.

Question put and agreed to.

15:27
House adjourned.

Deferred Divisions

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
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Division 323

Ayes: 302


Conservative: 292
Democratic Unionist Party: 8
Independent: 1
Labour: 1

Noes: 262


Labour: 217
Scottish National Party: 29
Liberal Democrat: 9
Plaid Cymru: 4
Independent: 1
Green Party: 1

Draft Mutual Recognition of Protection Measures in Civil Matters (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

General Committees
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The Committee consisted of the following Members:
Chair: Mr Virendra Sharma
† Beckett, Margaret (Derby South) (Lab)
† Beresford, Sir Paul (Mole Valley) (Con)
Coaker, Vernon (Gedling) (Lab)
† Daby, Janet (Lewisham East) (Lab)
† Foxcroft, Vicky (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab)
† Frazer, Lucy (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice)
† Graham, Richard (Gloucester) (Con)
† Heaton-Jones, Peter (North Devon) (Con)
† Hussain, Imran (Bradford East) (Lab)
† Keegan, Gillian (Chichester) (Con)
† Milling, Amanda (Cannock Chase) (Con)
† Shapps, Grant (Welwyn Hatfield) (Con)
† Smith, Henry (Crawley) (Con)
Streeting, Wes (Ilford North) (Lab)
† Thomas, Gareth (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
† Thomson, Ross (Aberdeen South) (Con)
Turley, Anna (Redcar) (Lab/Co-op)
Claire Cozens, Committee Clerk
† attended the Committee
Thirteenth Delegated Legislation Committee
Wednesday 6 February 2019
[Mr Virendra Sharma in the Chair]
Draft Mutual Recognition of Protection Measures in Civil Matters (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
14:29
Lucy Frazer Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lucy Frazer)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Mutual Recognition of Protection Measures in Civil Matters (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sharma. The draft instrument forms part of the Government’s preparations should the UK leave the EU without a deal. It relates solely to our no-deal preparations. If Parliament approves the withdrawal agreement, which includes an implementation period, and passes the necessary legislation to implement that agreement, the Government would defer the coming into force of the instrument until the end of that implementation period.

The statutory instrument relates to civil protection measures. A civil protection measure is the decision to place restrictions on one individual to protect another individual who may be at risk. Someone may be prevented from going to a place where the person at risk lives or works, for example. They could also be prevented from contacting the person at risk by phone or by email. Examples of civil protection measures in the law of England and Wales include non-molestation orders, under part IV of the Family Law Act 1996, or injunctions, under section 3 of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997. There are similar measures in Northern Ireland. The SI relates in particular to the recognition and enforcement of those measures. The approach that we are taking is to unilaterally recognise and enforce incoming civil protection measures from EU countries, except Denmark, to ensure that vulnerable individuals will continue to be protected.

What is the current position of English and Welsh law under EU law? The EU regulation on mutual recognition of protection measures in civil matters, which I will refer to as the civil protection measures regulation, provides for mutual recognition of such protection measures in civil matters across the EU, except Denmark, which does not participate in the European Union area of freedom, security and justice. That regulation’s effect is that if a civil protection measure is granted in one member state, it must be recognised in another, without any special measure to achieve that end. It must be enforced in another member state without any need for a declaration of enforceability and is treated, practically speaking, as if it had been ordered in the other member state.

What will change if we leave the EU without a deal? The instrument provides that an incoming civil protection measure from an EU member state—except Denmark—shall, under the terms of the civil protection measures regulation, be recognised without any special procedure being required, and enforceable without the requirement for a declaration of enforceability.

The instrument also revokes the provision about issuing a certificate in the courts of England and Wales and Northern Ireland, which is required for recognition and enforcement in an EU member state, under the civil protection measures regulation. We are doing that because we cannot legislate unilaterally to restore the reciprocity of approach. That means we cannot require an EU member state to comply with civil protection measures issued by UK courts, because the UK will no longer be an EU member state and EU member states will no longer be bound to recognise or enforce civil protection measures issued in the UK under the regime.

Providing for courts in England and Wales to issue such certificates when there is no certainty that the measure could be invoked in the EU under the civil protection measures regulation would, in our view, be of no benefit to our citizens. Indeed, it could open up the possibility of giving the person at risk a false expectation of continued protection in an EU member state.

The Government accept that that loss of reciprocity means that those with civil protection measures issued in our courts who wish to travel to the EU will be disadvantaged compared with those who have protection measures issued in the EU who wish to come to the UK. We strongly believe, however, that we must do what we can to provide as much reassurance as possible to people, often in vulnerable situations, who have a protection measure issued in the EU. That is because it benefits all citizens, including vulnerable people living in the EU, be they EU, UK or other nationals.

Gareth Thomas Portrait Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
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I, like all Members of the Committee, I am sure, look forward to being selected to serve on Delegated Legislation Committees. Will the Minister give a practical example that a simple soul, such as a Back Bencher like me, could understand, to show how these regulations will make a practical difference on the ground?

Lucy Frazer Portrait Lucy Frazer
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Like the hon. Gentleman, I am eager to serve and do my duty, to ensure that our laws are worthy of the citizens we serve. I am grateful to him for serving on this very important Committee. An example would be a molestation order. If a victim of domestic violence has an injunction in France preventing the perpetrator emailing them, visiting their home or workplace, or contacting them in any way, and they come on holiday to England, we will respect that injunction, which will remain valid and enforceable.

Grant Shapps Portrait Grant Shapps (Welwyn Hatfield) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

On a point of clarification, I understand from what my hon. and learned Friend has said so far that, if we leave without a deal, through this statutory instrument we will ensure that EU citizens are protected effectively if they come here, but the same will not be the case for British citizens in the EU. I understand that we want to create the atmosphere for the best possible relations, but what measures are the British Government taking to ensure that, even in a no-deal scenario, there is some reciprocity for what seems to be a very generous position in this statutory instrument?

Lucy Frazer Portrait Lucy Frazer
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am pleased that all Members are listening intently. A number of SIs set out reciprocity with the EU, but in most others, where we are taking ourselves away from EU laws, we are not giving reciprocity because it will not be respected. We are taking this approach with this unusual SI because we want to continue to protect vulnerable people. We would like other member states to continue to respect and protect vulnerable people, but we have no power to dictate to them how to run their laws.

We have been liaising primarily with the EU in our negotiations, but we will of course try, in whatever scenario, to have discussions on a bilateral as well as multilateral basis, to ensure that we get the best result, not only for our citizens but for EU citizens using our courts and services.

We have not reached this position without considering the views of others. As we developed our thinking, we discussed the proposal with family law stakeholders and leading family law practitioners. These regulations cover England, Wales and Northern Ireland—this is a devolved matter in Scotland and the Scottish Government are dealing with it separately. However, we understand that they, too, will continue to recognise and enforce incoming protection measures.

The draft instrument ensures that the element of the regime for mutual recognition of civil protection measures, which we will continue to operate under in a no-deal scenario, applies—namely, to continue to comply unilaterally with the civil protection measures regulation in England, Wales and Northern Ireland with respect to incoming civil protection measures from the EU, apart from Denmark. It will therefore provide an effective framework for UK courts to work with. It takes into account the lack of reciprocity in this area, which recognises that we cannot legislate in this area in other member states after we leave.

In conclusion, as far as we can establish, the civil protection measures regime is not widely relied upon in any formal sense, but it can enable at-risk people in vulnerable situations to avail themselves of additional protection when moving between EU member states. The Government consider that removing that additional means of protection would be an undesirable outcome of the UK’s decision to leave the EU. Again, we would prefer to ensure that if the UK leaves the EU without a deal, those granted civil protection measures in England and Wales and in Northern Ireland will be able to avail themselves of the protection currently provided in EU member states, but we cannot; it is not in our gift to suggest that they do something we would like them to do. We are taking a pragmatic approach in order to protect vulnerable citizens and give them as much certainty as possible. We believe that is the best approach to ensure that if we leave without a deal, our legal system will continue to work effectively for our citizens.

14:40
Imran Hussain Portrait Imran Hussain (Bradford East) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sharma. Civil law is rarely presented as the most exciting aspect of the legal profession—the Minister herself said as much in an article on civil judicial co-operation last September—but, as she too accepts, that does not mean it is not important. Certainly, the matters before us are of huge importance. These regulations, while unassuming at first sight, with their long title serving to deceive, and tucked away in this SI Committee, are of huge importance and should not be understated. They extend vital protections from harassment, abuse and risk to vulnerable people from the EU while in the UK.

The interconnected world in which we live means that people have never been freer to travel, move and relocate. It means that we must have interconnected protections extended to cover different nations. Although these regulations extend protections, they are not what we had hoped for. They are worryingly one-sided, and we have serious concerns about them. First, the regulations lay bare the inadequacies of the Government’s preparations for a post-Brexit world in the area of judicial co-operation, as it is the Government’s failure to secure a deal on judicial co-operation and the recognition of civil protection measures that makes them necessary in the first place.

The Government stated in their future partnership paper “Providing a cross-border civil judicial cooperation framework” that their intention was to secure

“an agreement with the EU that allows for close and comprehensive cross-border civil judicial co-operation”.

In their White Paper on future UK-EU relations, they further stated that they were

“keen to explore a new bilateral agreement with the EU”

on civil judicial co-operation. The White Paper also stated that the EU has shown that

“a deeper level of civil judicial cooperation with third countries is both legally viable and operationally achievable”.

The real question is why they have been unable to replicate that civil judicial co-operation, if it is all too possible. Why have we been forced into this situation at all? The answer is the Government’s poor negotiation and a lack of preparation by the Ministry of Justice for a post-Brexit world. The Government’s preparations for judicial co-operation have been shredded by parliamentary Select Committees in both Houses. The Chair of the Justice Committee warned the Minister of a lack of clarity on the implications of Brexit for the justice system, including little certainty about how the civil judicial objectives that the Government are reaching for will be achieved. The Chair of the EU Justice Sub-Committee in the other place, in a letter to the Justice Secretary last October, expressed further concerns about how the Government are handling the Brexit negotiations, warning of the “profound and damaging impact” of a no-deal Brexit on those whom the courts seek to protect.

This damaging impact is seen all too clearly here, because a failure to prepare and secure a deal now means that there is no reciprocation by the EU on the recognition of protection measures. Although these regulations mean that protection measures issued in the EU will be recognised and enforced in the UK, the reverse is worryingly not true. Instead, protection measures issued in the UK will be neither recognised nor enforced in EU member states, meaning that those in the UK will be at risk when they are in the EU.

Ultimately, that means a harassed mother seeking protection for herself and her children, with an abusive partner barred from making contact, will be left vulnerable in the EU. That is simply unacceptable. It is deplorable that, with just weeks to go, we are unable to offer her the protection she needs, particularly given that the Government’s own explanatory memorandum states that protection measures impose obligations and prohibitions on persons causing risk—the word “risk” is not used lightly and shows the grave seriousness of the issue.

Although the Minister in the other place states that the Government are hopeful of taking forward recognition by EU member states in future negotiations, they have failed to set out specifically what is being done exclusively on the issue of judicial co-operation and recognition of protection measures in current and past negotiations. That Minister further stated that the Ministry of Justice had discussed the issue of protection measures post Brexit with family law stakeholders and practitioners, something reinforced here today by the Minister, to develop the MOJ’s thinking. Even today, we have failed to hear which groups were consulted and what they think about the lack of reciprocation secured by the UK and the impact that would have on those travelling to the EU. What assurances has the Minister given to those groups that protection measures issued in the UK will be taken forward as a matter of urgency to maintain protection for vulnerable adults and children?

The Opposition have long warned of the damaging impact of no deal. We are clearly seeing today just how bad no deal will be. The damage of no deal extends beyond trade and the movement of people, beyond the economy and migration, and into laws that would otherwise ensure that we all have protections in an interconnected world—protections from abuse, harassment and danger.

We do not support the regulations today. Although they have our support for extending the recognition of protection made in EU member states to the UK, they do not have our support for their failure to secure reciprocation. We are deeply unhappy with the situation and want to express our serious concerns. However, our view, supported by the Law Society, is that not allowing the regulations to pass would leave people worse off in the event of no deal. Opposing the regulations will not leave UK citizens better protected; only a better deal and better negotiations by the Government will do that. It would instead leave those from EU member states worse off and less well protected for no benefit whatsoever to any parties involved. We are not prepared to do that. We are not prepared to act out of spite, so we will not oppose the regulations.

However, we must be clear that the Government must come forward at the earliest opportunity to set out how they will achieve reciprocation across the EU, which is not for lack of willingness on the part of the EU, and how the framework for achieving judicial co-operation and recognition of protection measures will be achieved. A failure to do so would be a betrayal of vulnerable people seeking protection and a failure of the Government’s duty of care towards them.

14:48
Lucy Frazer Portrait Lucy Frazer
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will respond to a couple of the points made by the hon. Member for Bradford East. He is right to identify this as an important matter affecting families across Europe and the UK. He said that the regulations are one-sided; we have been very up front that this is a one-sided relationship, because we cannot legislate for other member states. All we can do is ensure that our regime provides the best possible protection.

The hon. Gentleman suggested that the Government have failed to prepare. I made it clear at the outset that in this SI we are legislating for a no-deal scenario. The Government would very much like to have a deal. If we have a deal, the EU has been clear, in our discussions and in its written guidance, that it would like to have a strong relationship with the UK in family matters, and to develop further the basic requirements that we would have in a no-deal situation, so that families are protected.

We have liaised extensively with the EU on this matter, and the deal—as set out in the political declaration—makes it clear that the EU is willing to give us a deal on family matters on a reciprocal basis. We cannot come here today and offer that deal, because Parliament did not vote in favour of it. A large number of Labour Members did not support that deal, which is why the Government are in this position.

I would like to make clear the protection that these individuals will have. It is not the case that vulnerable people going to EU member states will have no protection at all; they will be able to make an application in a foreign court for the same protections. It is just that the measures currently in place give automatic protections, so that an order made here is treated like one made in another member state. There are protections, but it would just be more laborious and expensive.

Imran Hussain Portrait Imran Hussain
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister conveniently forgets that many Government Members rejected that very bad deal as well. She must accept that some of the most vulnerable people will be put at risk in the case of no deal. She cannot provide any guarantees here to the contrary.

Lucy Frazer Portrait Lucy Frazer
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We have been up front that the current provisions in civil judicial co-operation in family law matters do provide some protection even without the EU regimes, but not the same level of protection, and this is an example of that. It is not the case that they will get no protection at all, but the protection they have at the moment is better. We accept that, which is one of the reasons I will be voting again for the Government’s deal when, or if, the opportunity arises.

The hon. Gentleman raised a legitimate point about consultation. I can assure him that we have liaised with a number of bodies interested in family law. We have a Brexit law committee, on which sit members of the Bar Council, the Law Society and the City. We also have sub-committees in different areas of law. There is a family sub-committee, with which I have held roundtable discussions. My officials met the sub-committee regularly to discuss these and other areas of family law. We have also met Resolution and the international Family Law Committee, and I have spoken with the Family Law Bar Association. The Ministry of Justice has not taken these decisions in isolation; we have very much engaged with stakeholders to come up with the best possible solutions. I commend the draft regulations to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

14:53
Committee rose.

Petitions

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Petitions
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Wednesday 6 February 2019

The future of maintained nursery schools

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Petitions
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The Petition of the parents, carers and staff of Grasmere Nursery School in Luton; received 5 February 2019.
Declares that we are concerned about the future of maintained nursery schools in England after March 2020 as no guarantee has been given by the Government that adequate funding will continue when supplementary funding ends.
The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons to urge the Government to take action to ensure nursery schools are financially sustainable for the future.
And the petitioners remain, etc—[Presented by Kelvin Hopkins .]
[P002414]
Petitions in the same terms were presented by:
The hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Charles Walker):
The petition of the parents, careers, staff and governors of Greenfield maintained nursery school in Waltham Cross.
[P002336]
The petition of the parents, careers, staff and governors of Arlesdene Nursery School maintained nursery school and Pre-school in Hertfordshire
[P002337]
The hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Jonathan Djanogly):
The petition of the parents, carers, staff and governors and local community of Huntingdon Nursery School, maintained nursery school in Cambridgeshire.
[P002398]
The hon. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell):
The petition of the parents, carers, staff and governors of Rowland Hill Nursery, maintained nursery school in Haringey London,
[P002402]
The petition of the parents, carers, staff and governors of Woodlands Park, maintained nursery school in Haringey,
[P002403]
The petition of The parents, carers, staff, governors and other local community contacts of Kintore Way maintained nursery school in Southwark.
[P002406]
The petition of the parents, carers, staff and governors of Pembury House, maintained nursery school in Haringey,
[P002407]
The petition of The parents, carers, staff and governors of Ribblesdale Nursery School , maintained nursery school in Clitheroe, Lancashire,
[P002409]
The hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy):
The petition of the parents, carers, staff and governors of Church Hill and Low Hill maintained nursery schools in Waltham Forest.
[P002411]
The Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty’s Treasury, the hon. Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer):
The Petition of the parents, cares, staff and governors of Moss hall maintained nursery school in Barnet.
[P002412]
The hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins):
The Petition of the parents, carers and staff of Gill Blowers Nursery School in Luton.
[P002413]
The petition of the parents, carers and staff of Chapel Street, Gill Blowers, Grasmere, Hart Hill, Pastures Way and Rothesay maintained nursery schools in Luton.
[P002415]
The hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Charles Walker):
The petition of The parents, carers, staff and governors of Rye Park, maintained nursery school in Hoddesdon, Hertfordshire,
[P002397]
The hon. Member for Coventry South (Mr Jim Cunningham):
The petition of the parents, careers, staff and governors of Hillfields maintained nursery school in Coventry.
[P002416]

Sale of Jackson Lane Car Park

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Petitions
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The Humble Petition of residents of Wellingborough, Northamptonshire and the surrounding area,
Sheweth,
That the Petitioners believe that the proposed sale of the Jackson Car Park, should be refused on the grounds of the loss of public parking in the area which will have an enormous effect on local businesses, doctors surgery, the chemists, the Salvation Army, the Afro Caribbean Association, the Daylight Centre, the Society of Friends, the Job Centre and the United Reformed Church.
Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable House urges the Ministry for Housing, Communities and Local Government and the Borough Council in Wellingborough to take in account the concerns of the petitioners and refuse to grant the sale of the Jackson Lane Car Park to a private developer.
And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray, &c.—[Presented by Mr Peter Bone , Official Report, 12 September 2018; Vol. 646, c. 829 .]
[P002263]
Observations from the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government (Rishi Sunak):
Parking is the responsibility of local authorities and it is for them to determine what is appropriate in their own area. Central Government have no remit to intervene in local authorities’ day to day affairs.
However, under the Community Right to Bid legislation community groups have listed car parks as assets of community value. The scheme allows communities and parish councils to nominate buildings or land for listing by the local authority as Assets of Community Value. Any asset can be listed if its principal use furthers, or has recently furthered, their community’s social well-being or social interests which include cultural, sporting or recreational interests, and is likely to do so in the future.
I should point out that the listing of Assets of Community Value is a matter for the local authority and as such the Department does not comment on individual cases.
If successful, listed and made available for sale, community interest groups then have six weeks (the interim moratorium period) to lodge a non-binding expression of interest. This triggers a moratorium of a further four and half months (six months in total—the full moratorium period) to delay the sale of the asset. This affords community interest groups sufficient time to prepare and raise money to bid for it.
What the scheme does not do is compel the owner to sell to a community group, or set the price at which the owner must sell. The scheme seeks to balance the rights of private property owners with the interests of the community where the local authority agrees that the asset in question is an Asset of Community Value.

Westminster Hall

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Westminster Hall
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.

Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.

This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record

Wednesday 6 February 2019
[Graham Stringer in the Chair]

UK as a Financial Services Hub

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Westminster Hall
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.

Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.

This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record

09:30
Bim Afolami Portrait Bim Afolami (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the UK as a financial services hub.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Stringer. I started my professional career in financial services, as did the Exchequer Secretary, as a corporate lawyer in the City of London. I worked at Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer for three years, before working at an American firm called Simpson Thacher & Bartlett for three years. After that, I underwent a bit of a switch, and moved from being a lawyer advising on transactions to working in banking in strategy and restructuring at HSBC. I moved from being an adviser to a principal, or manager.

When I was at HSBC, I started to learn about financial services in their broader sense. As a senior executive, I was deeply involved with several high-profile aspects of the bank’s restructuring, notably on splitting the retail bank from the investment bank, which was necessitated by ring-fencing legislation. I also spent time working across the global bank on the implementation of MiFID II—the markets in financial instruments directive—which required huge changes to how the markets desk operated. I also worked on custody systems, payment systems and business design. That took me up to June 2017, when I was elected to this House as Member of Parliament for Hitchin and Harpenden.

Obviously, financial services matter a huge amount to me, but they also matter a lot to my constituents. An analysis of the latest census data leads me to estimate that my constituency is in the top 50 in the country for those who work in financial or professional services. One cannot move in Hitchin or Harpenden without bumping into a lawyer, a banker or an investor.

Bim Afolami Portrait Bim Afolami
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am really selling it. In fact, when I was canvassing at the last election, a voter told me that after they had looked me up, they said, “Oh, well this is probably the only seat in which being a lawyer and a banker is an advantage rather than a disadvantage.”

Craig Tracey Portrait Craig Tracey (North Warwickshire) (Con)
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My hon. Friend makes some important points about banking. Does he agree that the insurance sector has a massive role to play? It brings in £29.5 billion to the UK economy, including, as I am sure the Minister will appreciate, £12 billion in taxes. The critical point about the insurance industry is that it employs 300,000 people, two-thirds of whom live outside London, so the industry has an impact on all our constituencies.

Bim Afolami Portrait Bim Afolami
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is completely right. Later in my remarks, I will talk about the regional aspects of our financial services sector. Suffice it to say, I called this debate because I believe that our world-leading position in financial services is at risk. That will have an impact not only on London, but on regions outside London, and on industries such as the insurance industry in my hon. Friend’s constituency and across the country.

We must remember that despite the appalling financial crisis of 10 years ago, in which many institutions and firms were culpable of incompetence and wrongdoing—if not outright illegality—the British financial services sector is a national asset and a public good. It is our most successful sector and export. I will try my hardest not to get trapped in a Brexit rabbit hole during the debate, but I will make this point: in post-Brexit Britain, we will have to adapt our financial services sector to ensure that in the next 20 years, the UK remains the world’s global financial services hub, facilitating business and creating growth from Bangor to Bangalore and from Hitchin to Helsinki.

John Howell Portrait John Howell (Henley) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am a former partner in Ernst & Young, so mine is a completely different perspective on the sector. Yesterday, I chaired a breakfast meeting to look at the future of digital currencies. Among those present, there was an overwhelming desire to see better regulations in place globally. We have an opportunity to take the lead on that. Does my hon. Friend see that as an opportunity for the UK?

Bim Afolami Portrait Bim Afolami
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I defer to my hon. Friend’s experience as a very senior partner at a major accounting practice. The regulation of financial services has moved from a national to a regional level and now to a global level, for instance through Basel and Solvency II. Let us consider the reasons that Solvency II was brought in for the insurance industry. Britain—not just the Treasury but also the Bank of England—needs to make sure that as we leave the European Union, we do not lose our voice at the global level. If we do, we will have to implement regulations that we will not have taken part in shaping. I will address that further on in my remarks.

John Howell Portrait John Howell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Bank of England was not only present at yesterday’s breakfast meeting, but spoke. It took a strong role in looking at whether the digital currency sector needs future regulation.

Bim Afolami Portrait Bim Afolami
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my hon. Friend; I will address that aspect directly in my remarks.

Before I come to that, I think it is worth defining, for people who might read or watch the debate, what financial services actually do. To many, it looks like it is just about shuffling paper around or playing with spreadsheets. Put simply, financial services are partners of business. In 2017, UK banks lent £14 billion per quarter. Almost 1,500 equity finance deals, with an investment value of almost £6 billion, helped smaller businesses grow in 2017.

Another thing to assess and to remember is that financial services create business demand for other goods and services. The financial services industry is the largest buyer of tech services in the UK, for example. A business contributing to what we might call “the real economy” needs financial services to be available, cheap and effective. In Britain, companies from around the world have access to those services through our financial services sector.

What impact do financial services have on the Treasury’s balance sheet? The Minister will be keenly aware of this—I know that the Chancellor is. The financial services sector contributed over £72 billion in taxes last year. To give people a sense of scale, that is half of the NHS budget and about 11% of total UK Government revenue. In addition, the sector provides 1.1 million jobs to the UK-wide workforce. If one includes related professional services in an advisory capacity, such as accounting or legal services, that number rises to 2 million.

We are global leaders. The UK is the leading destination country for foreign direct investment projects in financial services from the United States, Sweden and China. The UK attracts 15% of the US’s global projects of that nature, 47% of Sweden’s and 15% of China’s. I come back to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Craig Tracey); those who believe that financial services affect the City of London only should think again. Two-thirds of financial services jobs in the UK are based outside London. In fact, with regards to the foreign direct investment that I just described, between 2013 and 2017, regions outside London accounted for 49% of the jobs created, 48% of the gross value added in financial services, 36% of the estimated capital investment in the UK and 37% of the total number of jobs. All that went to regions outside London.

Highly paid bankers and insurance brokers or traders who earn millions of pounds do not reflect the reality of 99% of financial services. A major reason that they matter is the cluster effect of the jobs that major financial institutions create around them. Let us take self-employed freelance workers, who often work as consultants for major firms in the industry. The number of self-employed workers in the UK has gone up by roughly 50% since 2001. According to statistics from IPSE, the Association of Independent Professionals and the Self-Employed—I refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests—22% of the self-employed work in financial services, and 40% of those freelancers had at least one project based in the EU in the past 12 months. A good Brexit deal really matters to them, and those statistics show the ancillary losses that a poor deal for financial services will bring.

Numerous challenges and changes are on the horizon, which will require our Government to change and develop their approach to the sector. I will focus on three principal areas: first, the digitisation of the economy and the rise of FinTech; secondly, the challenges and tough choices we face as we leave the European Union; and thirdly, the need to increase the penetration of financial services into our most deprived areas. That will deepen and improve the relationship between the financial services sector and our most deprived people, to ensure that everyone benefits from the sector, not just the affluent.

On digitisation, we are in a new economy: the internet and social media, as all Members of Parliament know, have completely changed not only how politics operates but how goods and services are produced and sold throughout the world. Anyone who has read Stian Westlake and Jonathan Haskel’s book, “Capitalism without Capital: The Rise of the Intangible Economy”, will be in no doubt about the profound economic change that we are seeing. These days, anyone can produce almost anything anywhere using 3D printing; anyone can advertise a product worldwide at the click of a mouse; and, as I saw last week, a film producer based in Hitchin in my constituency can work with clients in China in minutes.

Such changes are exciting from a technological perspective, but present a real challenge to the way in which we do things. For the past 15 years or so, companies have invested more in intangibles, such as branding, design and technology, than they have in machinery, hardware or property. Businesses such as Uber do not own cars; they own software and data. Coffee bars and gyms rely on branding to help them stand out from the crowd, and they often lease their premises and physical goods, rather than owning them. That is capitalism without capital.

What does that mean for financial services and, in particular, for banking? The normal model for bank lending is this: when lending to a business, the assessment of the company’s balance sheet—the assets and liabilities—is a critical aspect of assessing credit-worthiness. In the new economy, banks struggle to understand how to value and monitor intangible property. In the old days, if a company went bust, a bank could recover its money by selling physical assets—it would have a mortgage over the buildings and could sell capital assets such as machinery. If a company with intangible assets folds, those assets cannot be sold off easily—in effect, their value will have sunk with the company.

A lot of smaller businesses in the new economy therefore do not have the same access to bank loans. They are much more reliant on venture capital and angel investors, and that is a very different model of financing from traditional bank lending. My first question to the Minister is this: how will our regulatory system have to change in order to catch up with the new economy, which is changing at both a domestic and a global level? Without changing the rules on bank lending, we will be unable to finance small entrepreneurial businesses properly over the longer term.

FinTech is another success story for Britain in financial services. Indeed, we are the world’s FinTech hub. Of the European Union’s $26 billion of FinTech investment, the UK attracted $16 billion, which is a huge chunk of that European market. In the first half of 2018, that helped the UK to overtake US FinTech investment for the first time. If we consider the size of the United Kingdom, for us to overtake the US in terms of total investment is really something.

Those numbers look impressive, and they are, but there are clouds ahead. I suggest that the money is still being raised easily because the successful companies that attract a lot of the equity investment are based in Britain—they were set up here. However, there is much evidence across the FinTech sector that new start-ups increasingly are created in competitor countries, in cities such as Berlin and Paris. Much of the money raised by companies—the money I was just describing—still comes to Britain, but it is spent abroad. The companies are expanding their footprints elsewhere due to worries about the short and medium-term outlook for FinTech in Britain. We need to face up to that.

The fundamental point that we need to be honest about is that Brexit has put huge uncertainty at the centre of Britain’s short and medium-term economic outlook, which affects financial services and FinTech in particular. There are many reasons for the success of FinTech over the past few years, but the key factor is that London has become the principal magnet for the best software engineers, the best inventors, and the best and most successful investors from all over the world. How will we maintain that while dealing with the challenge of Brexit?

I suggest a twofold approach. First, we need to ensure that we remain one of the best places to raise equity finance, and enable the employees of FinTech start-ups to take equity in the businesses in which they work. Will the Minister undertake to ensure that the Treasury will not seek to change the enterprise investment scheme or entrepreneurs’ relief? Will he also consider eliminating stamp duty on shares? That idea was floated recently by Xavier Rolet, the former head of the London stock exchange. Oxera Consulting calculates that the abolition of stamp duty on shares would cut the cost of raising capital for small and medium-sized enterprises by between 7% and 8.5%. KMPG estimates that that could rise to 13% for some technology companies. Cutting the cost of capital for SMEs would lead to increased growth, profitability and employment, and higher salaries for workers, all of which make revenue for Her Majesty’s Treasury while creating a more dynamic business environment.

The second approach is simple: it is about people. In recent conversations—some took place earlier this week—with major FinTech investors, they were extremely clear that the ability to hire high-quality people, and to keep them in this country away from the clutches of Paris or Berlin, is very important. The £30,000 earnings threshold proposed in the immigration White Paper should not be a huge problem for the sector, because the vast majority of the people brought in by our FinTech companies earn more than that. One consideration, however, might not have been fully appreciated: 42% of our founders in FinTech are from abroad, and when they start their business, they often do not earn much, because they are ploughing what they earn back into their businesses, so they might fall beneath the £30,000 cap.

What are the Government’s plans to ensure that founders—the talented people who are the brains behind FinTech businesses—can move easily to the UK to start their firms? If they cannot, they will go somewhere else, and that innovation and wealth, and those jobs, will go to other countries.

Robert Neill Portrait Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)
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My hon. Friend is making a most powerful speech, and I agree with everything that he is saying. Does he agree that it is important to look at the means of retaining those bright graduates who come here and train? They are precisely the people who might wish to start their businesses in the UK. We need a scheme that makes it possible for them to remain in the UK, without having to leave and come back, so that they can move from graduate employment into the sector, using their skills. We would then get the brightest and best from day one.

Bim Afolami Portrait Bim Afolami
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I completely agree that we need to make it easier for graduates to stay. My understanding is that the Home Secretary has extended the time in which graduates may search for a job in Britain—I think up to 12 months. I would like to see that go up further, and I think the Home Secretary is quite amenable to that. We have to be honest: if we are thinking about immigration caps and the like, we should not turn away graduates, who will often be the brains of new businesses. We should help as many of them as possible to stay here; I agree with my hon. Friend on that point.

Brexit obviously dominates Parliament and Whitehall at the moment. We are in fast-moving times, so I will offer no predictions, largely because by the time anyone sees this debate, they would be completely out of date. As things stand, the political declaration that sits alongside the withdrawal agreement explains that the UK will have access to the EU market, and vice versa, under an equivalence regime. That means that the usual equivalence assessment will need to be undertaken for UK firms in the EU market, and the UK will have a similar equivalence process for the EU. Let me explain the notion of equivalence for those who are not familiar with it, with reference to the European Union. Essentially, the EU may look at a set of regulations that govern a certain area of financial services, such as bank lending, and deem another country’s regulations equivalent to its own, thereby allowing firms based in that other country to sell products to customers—individuals and firms—in the European Union.

Our reliance on an equivalence regime leaves me with three questions. First, to what extent do the Government wish to align themselves with EU regulations at a time when the European Union is pushing ahead in a much more restrictive and onerous direction, in regulatory terms? In recent years we have seen the alternative investment fund managers directive, the cap on bankers’ bonuses, MiFID II and other regulations, which were often well intentioned but have tended to increase costs, reduce Europe’s competitiveness and increase complexity. That has made accessing financial services more expensive, more complicated and not necessarily any safer for the consumer. I believe that onslaught of complicated regulation has led in part to the poor productivity of financial services since 2008. Productivity has slowed by just over 2% in the past 10 years.

Craig Tracey Portrait Craig Tracey
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My hon. Friend is making a powerful case. His point about regulation is critical to ensuring our future success, which will be underpinned by proportional regulation. Does he agree that we need to give the regulator a function as a promoter of the industry? If it had to promote the industry across the world, it would have to understand better what it regulates. The rules that apply to insurance do not necessarily apply to banking; those industries are regulated very differently across the world. The promotion aspect is critical.

Bim Afolami Portrait Bim Afolami
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That is a very interesting and important point. My hon. Friend will correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that when the Financial Services Act 2012 came in, there was significant debate about whether it should have included a duty on the regulator to promote financial services, both in the UK and abroad. The decision was taken not to put that in statute at that time. The Government should revisit that decision. Giving the regulator such a duty would not be inimical to ensuring that we regulate the industry properly; it would just ensure a balance, and that the regulator considered the impact on consumers—firms and individuals—as much as other impacts.

Recently, the EU has made many changes to the way it treats all non-EU firms that seek to offer financial services to European customers. Changes to MiFID II and large clearing houses are being considered, and I believe the proposals being discussed include setting the bar higher for granting equivalence for firms classed as systemic. It is proposed that the European Securities and Markets Authority—let us just call it ESMA to avoid getting tied up—be given greater powers to oversee the activity of those firms, including powers to open investigations, conduct on-site inspections and the like. It is also proposed that ESMA be able temporarily to restrict or prohibit those firms’ activities in the EU.

In recent months, the EU has shown that it wants to be able to give its supervisory agencies, such as ESMA, greater extraterritorial reach, so they behave a bit more like American financial services regulators often do. The EU wants to ensure that ESMA plays a greater role in overseeing when national regulators can allow EU-based asset managers to outsource or delegate portfolio and risk-management activities to entities outside the EU. At the moment, as the Minister will appreciate, many asset management funds based in Luxembourg and Ireland delegate those activities to London. Some fear that the initial review that is under way is the precursor to the EU seeking to ban those outsourcing and delegation models altogether, although I gather that in recent days an agreement has been reached between British and European regulators—that is what it said in the Financial Times, at least. Perhaps the Minister can enlighten us about that.

Those rather technical points matter, because they show that the equivalence regime—the regime that we are going to rely on under the Brexit deal—is being considerably narrowed. In my judgment, that may make it harder for UK-based firms to sell services directly into the EU in future than it is for, say, Japanese and American firms to do so today. If the Minister’s answer is that the UK will seek in large part to copy the EU’s regulation, does that not make us highly vulnerable to aggressive regulatory behaviour from the EU27, who have already shown that they are very capable of designing regulations that are deliberately inimical to UK interests? Just as importantly, as we look further afield to the huge growth in opportunities for financial services in places such as Asia, how will we be competitive with the centres of Hong Kong, Singapore and New York and ensure that the UK is best placed to attract that business?

On the other hand, if the Minister’s answer is that the UK will seek to diverge from EU regulations where we can—obviously, that is a perfectly legitimate outcome—do the Government have a strategy setting out the areas in which we will seek to diverge, how we might do that and what the benefit will be, bearing in mind that the consequence will be reduced access to the European market in the areas in which we seek to diverge? In my view, we can take that path only if we shift to a regulatory model that significantly increases our relationships with and footprint in emerging markets in Asia and elsewhere. In those circumstances, we would shift more decisively to being a global financial centre, accepting that a certain chunk of European business will move away to the European Union. How do the Government envisage managing that shift and balancing those two approaches?

The Asian powerhouse countries have increasing financing needs, which include servicing $26 trillion of infrastructure spend, providing the backing for the Chinese-led belt and road initiative, and the internationalisation of the renminbi. Over the past 25 years, emerging economies’ share of global activity has risen from 40% to 60%, and their share of global trade has grown from a fifth to a third, yet their financial assets make up only 10% of the global financial system. Things will not stay that way for long, especially as savings rates keep increasing and the Asian economies concurrently get richer and richer. Growth in those countries far outstrips growth in Europe and the United States, and London is not necessarily the automatic choice for Asian financing. Singapore and Hong Kong are redoubling their efforts to ensure that they are the financial services centres that finance that Asian growth. How will we ensure that the UK is the global hub for that work?

I have spoken mostly about regulation—hon. Members are all still awake; I thank them for bearing with me—but tax policy is also a major part of this. The sad truth is that we are no longer internationally competitive on taxes for financial services. A report by UK Finance and PwC published in December 2018 states:

“On an overall basis, over half the profits (50.4%) from participant banks are paid in taxes”

in the UK. Some 43% of the taxes borne are not dependent on profit. In effect, they represent a fixed cost; the profitability of the bank is irrelevant. If we compare London with our major competitors—Frankfurt, New York, Singapore and Dubai—the overall tax burden for a model bank is highest in the UK, at just over 50% of commercial profit. In Frankfurt, that figure is 43%, in New York it is 34%, and in Singapore and Dubai it is 23%.

Putting all that together, given the regulatory challenges I outlined and the tax challenges I have just set out, are we still sure that the UK is in a position to dominate international financial services for the next 30 years, as it has for the past 30 years? Our financial services sector helps productivity and growth in our real economy across the country. Financial services is one of the most productive sectors in British cities, and while the average output per worker in a British city was £59,000 a year in 2016, that figure was almost twice as much in financial services. It would be foolish, however, to suggest that our financial services sector fully penetrates into some of our poorest regions, or that it is used by some of the poorest people in our country. I refer hon. Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, because I am a commissioner for the Financial Inclusion Commission, and we have been working on this issue since our landmark report on financial inclusion in 2015. Since then, the Treasury and the Government have taken on board most of the commission’s recommendations, and I commend them for that.

What does financial inclusion actually mean? In simple terms, it means belonging to a modern, mainstream financial system that is fit for purpose for everybody, regardless of their income. It is essential for anyone wanting to participate fairly and fully in everyday life. Without access to appropriate mainstream financial services, people end up paying more for goods and services, and have less choice. The payday lending market grew from £330 million in 2006 to £3.7 billion in 2012, and it is probably now worth more than £4 billion. We are a country of about 65 million people, and 13 million people in the UK do not have enough savings to support themselves for one month were they to experience a 25% cut in income—one month! We save less as a percentage of our income than any other country in the European Union.

I have talked about banking, insurance, Asia, and the belt and road initiative, but for the UK to be an effective financial services hub internationally, we must ensure that we are No. 1 in the world for financial inclusion. All our people need the chance to create and develop wealth and savings. There is no excuse for us not to use the talent of the world’s finest firms and individuals involved in financial and professional services in the UK, and for us not making true financial inclusion a reality for all our people.

Craig Tracey Portrait Craig Tracey
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I am really interested in this area, and I chair the all-party parliamentary group for insurance and financial services, which is considering that very point. Does my hon. Friend agree that although the internet and digital technology bring a lot of positives, they disproportionately disadvantage vulnerable people, who do not always have access to the face-to-face advice that they used to get on the high street, and who, as people are being driven online, do not always get the best deals?

Bim Afolami Portrait Bim Afolami
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Without wanting to out-APPG my hon. Friend, I am chair of the all-party group on credit unions, and one of the main purposes of credit unions is to provide that face-to-face advice. Credit unions are often active in places that banks left long ago. Providing that personal information that helps people to build up their savings is important.

Credit unions in the 10 most deprived communities in Britain are lending heavily, and they consider loans that few other lenders would consider because of the applicants’ credit scores, while also charging considerably less than any other type of financial service. Credit unions in the UK currently have £860 million out on loan, and that lending is predominantly focused on those at the bottom end of the income scale. Evidence shows that once people in deprived communities are given a chance to access credit on affordable terms, they start to see patterns of improvement in their credit profiles. Over time, those people will no longer necessarily need specialist financial advice from credit unions, because they will be able to bank with and access the mainstream financial services sector. Will the Minister agree to work with me on two aspects of credit unions? First, will he consider amending secondary legislation to broaden credit union lending powers, so that they are able to service more people from that vulnerable group? Secondly, will he work with the Bank of England to review capital requirements for credit unions, so that the sector can serve more people more effectively?

In conclusion, I would like the Minister to respond to the following points. First, what is the Government’s approach to adapting bank lending rules to enable more investment in the new economy with more intangible assets? Secondly, what is the Government’s blueprint for improving Britain’s attractiveness to people and firms in FinTech? Thirdly, what is the Government’s current thinking about their regulatory approach as we embark on our negotiations on a future trade agreement with the European Union, bearing in mind our need to be the No. 1 financial services hub for financing Asian investments and investments from the emerging world? Fourthly, how will the Government seek to bring down the tax burden on our financial services sector, given that we need to be more competitive on tax policy in coming years to counteract the uncertainty and destabilisation in the market? Finally, and perhaps most importantly, how will the Government seek to improve the penetration of financial services into our most disadvantaged communities, especially by helping credit unions to professionalise and expand?

None Portrait Several hon. Members rose—
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Graham Stringer Portrait Graham Stringer (in the Chair)
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Order. I intend to call the Opposition Front-Bench speakers at 10.30 am; hon. Members who wish to speak can do the arithmetic themselves.

10:05
Robert Neill Portrait Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Stringer, and I warmly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Bim Afolami) on securing this debate on an important topic. I am sorry that more hon. Members are not present, but I hope that the quality makes up for the quantity.

I am particularly keen to speak in this debate because I have a personal and constituency interest in this matter, and because it is critical to our country. About 36% of the working population of my constituency is employed in the financial or professional services sector, and that is about the 15th highest proportion in the country. Most of those people commute to London, although the European headquarters of Direct Line insurance—one of our principal insurance companies—is based in Bromley, and is the largest private sector employer in the borough. This issue matters for the prosperity of my communities, as well as impacting on the national picture.

This debate is important, but perhaps the reason why there are not more people here is that we have come to take it for granted that we are world leaders in financial services and the allied professional services that underpin them—of which more shortly. We take it for granted that the City will always be all right. I use the City as a shorthand for the broader financial services sector because, as my hon. Friend pointed out, only about half that sector’s output is generated in London, and many of the jobs are in fact based outside.

The idea that “the City will be okay” is something that we have to challenge a little. It will be okay, provided that it continues to have the right regulatory tax, fiscal and political environment to support it. It will be okay if we leave the European Union on sensible terms with a deal that protects the interests of our market access, but it will not necessarily be okay in the event of a catastrophic exit from the EU. Although larger firms will be able to manage come what may, smaller firms, which are often the innovators in this sector, will be more at risk. That makes it all the more important that we get it right for the City and the financial services sector as we leave the EU.

My hon. Friend properly referred to the contribution made by the financial services sector to the UK economy, and it is worth mentioning the report “Total tax contribution of UK financial services”, which was issued by the City of London Corporation, to which I pay the highest respect for its work to promote the sector nationally and internationally. The report, which was published in December 2018, highlighted the fact that the industry’s contribution to the Exchequer increased over the past year to £75 billion. That is 10.9%—nearly 11%—of the Government’s total tax receipts from all sources. It is 6.6% of the UK’s economic output. The number of jobs has already been referred to. This is a critical national economic and strategic asset, and Government policy must treat it as such.

It is worth saying that access to the European markets remains important, as it should do. My hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden is right to recognise that there are opportunities to be had from growing our contacts and trade with emerging economies. I was in Hong Kong in September at a legal conference looking at the opportunities for British law firms and their financial services clients, in relation to the belt and road initiative. No doubt there is much that can be done there, but at the moment, often, trade with China—particularly in the service sector—comes with strings attached, and perhaps a lack of transparency about access to the relevant sectors that would frankly not be acceptable in UK terms. The same applies with India, where there are great opportunities, but where there has so far been a marked reluctance about liberalisation in the service sector. As to my profession, as a lawyer, there is marked difficulty with India in getting liberalisation in the legal services sector. I hope that the Government will give more attention to that.

I was the sort of lawyer who became involved in the matters in question if regulatory procedures had not always been properly followed, whereas my hon. Friend was someone who made sure they were. What I have pointed out makes good, robust and internationally recognised regulatory frameworks all the more important. I previously had a spell working for Scottish Widows insurance, and as a trainee jobber, when such things existed, with Ackroyd and Smithers, who were then the leading gilts jobbers. It is an area of law in which I have always taken an interest, aside from its constituency importance for me.

The benign regulatory environment is something we need to watch, as we leave the EU. My hon. Friend is right to say that sometimes EU regulators have been difficult to deal with, from our perspective. Equally, however, dealing outside the EU, with a proper free trade agreement with third countries, to include financial services, will not be without challenges. I am secretary of the all-party parliamentary group on financial markets and services and have just come from a breakfast meeting with the group to discuss the prospects of a free trade agreement in services with the United States. There are real regulatory obstacles—not least having to deal with not one regulator but, in relation to the insurance sector, for example, 50 state insurance regulators as well as a national regulator. With banks, would one be dealing with the federal regulator, the regulator in New York or the state regulator in Chicago?

There is a multiplicity of issues to be addressed, which is why it is critical that we leave the EU with a deal, and with a transition period in which we could maintain all the good aspects of market access to the EU and have time to sort out arrangements and opportunities with non-EU countries. Let us be honest and not kid ourselves—those complexities will not be sorted out overnight. It will take time, and to benefit we must be patient about how we go about things.

Craig Tracey Portrait Craig Tracey
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My hon. Friend is right that we need to get regulation that works, but an issue put to me by the insurance industry is that a Norway-plus model would not work for the insurance market as a whole, as we would not all be working to the same rules. The insurance rules are set at EU level, rather than on a global scale, so we need to look at the different facets of financial services, to ensure that they work for the whole market.

Robert Neill Portrait Robert Neill
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That is perfectly true, and the need for the deal and for a time to thrash out our future relationships is all the more important because of it. There is not a simple scenario in which the sector works on a one-size-fits-all basis. The same thing applies to the legal services sector, which is a critical underpinning. It is worth remembering that with respect to financial flows, EU financial services trade with the UK between 2016-17 and the current time increased from £29 billion to £33 billion. That dwarfs the figure for trade with our next largest partner, the United States; it is only half, at £16 billion. The seven largest financial services markets added together—the US, Japan, Switzerland, Canada, China, India and Australia—come to only £26 billion, which is less than our financial services trade with the EU. That is why, at the same time as we look at the opportunities for opening out elsewhere, it is critical to maintain EU access, which has also been important to foreign inward investment into UK financial services as a gateway into EU markets.

It is worth bearing in mind that across measures of competitiveness London ranks as the top city and has the highest volume of financial services foreign direct investment globally. However, that is because of our current advantageous position, which we need to maintain. An important part of that advantageous position is the underpinning that legal services and the legal system give to the financial sector. I am concerned that although the Government have uttered warm words and issued advice to practitioners in the sector, real uncertainties would remain, should we leave the EU without a proper deal.

Some of the areas in question are similar to areas of concern in direct financial services, such as the loss of passporting rights, and the need to operate with a form of equivalence. However, the situation for legal services is even more stark, in some respects, because the establishment directive would go, as would mutual recognition of professional qualifications. That would not enable us to use the fly in, fly out arrangements that are so critical to enabling international law firms to advise their clients in real time while deals are going through. That needs to be dealt with, which is why, again, a transitional arrangement is critical.

The other critical point in that context is that unless we have a deal—if we leave without one—we will lose the existing arrangements for the mutual recognition and enforcement of UK court judgments in EU countries and vice versa. That is vital for contractual certainty and continuity. A contract is worthless if it cannot be enforced, and if it cannot be enforced through the judgment of a court there are no other means to do so. It is vital to find means to maintain that. TheCityUK has pointed out that losing it would mean profound difficulties in relation, for example, to insurance contracts—which would not be of value if we were to leave without the ability to enforce them in the event of default—and, significantly, uncleared derivatives. The derivatives market is particularly important to the UK. It is an area of expertise where, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden said, financial services are not just about figures, but are relevant to real business. Most business work is now underpinned in one way or another by a form of financial instrument being traded, particularly in any significant commercial deal. That has been described as the plumbing of the business system, so anything that threatens the derivatives trade operating out of the City, and what relies on it, would be extremely dangerous.

There have been some areas of progress. I was pleased when the European Securities and Markets Authority agreed a memorandum of understanding with the Bank of England in relation to central counterparties and the central securities depository, which enables that issue of central clearing to continue. However, that is one part of a much more complex structure. There are other areas on which I hope for assurances that the Government are determined to see the issue as central to our negotiations. Those things are largely part of the future state negotiations, but we have to have a deal to get into those future state negotiations to begin with. That cannot be emphasised too strongly.

I also want to emphasise the fact that financial services and many aspects of legal services depend on the free flow of data to underpin them. At the moment that is available to us, in relation to our EU counterparties. However, unless—at least until a future state agreement is achieved—there is regulatory alignment on data sharing, we risk disruption to those data flows. That will severely disrupt the circumstances in which we could guarantee that trades could be carried out and completed. Again, insurance and uncleared derivatives are particularly vulnerable to disruption of data flows.

The City believes that an EU-level solution is the optimal one, and I hope the Government will reassure us that it is their intention to press for that, for the same reason as we spoke of before—the complexities of dealing with the 27 on bilateral agreements would be daunting to say the least, and would cause more delay, which would deter people from writing contracts while that period of uncertainty persisted. I know that a temporary solution to protect data flows is currently under discussion, relating to a non-enforcement period between regulators under what is known as a “safe harbour” precedent, but that is not guaranteed. I hope the Minister will be able to update us on progress and assure us that this, too, remains a very high priority for the UK Government.

Getting global regulation right and making it business-friendly, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden said, is critical. Of course, the City of London Corporation provides the secretariat for the International Regulatory Strategy Group, which is a practitioner-led body comprising the leading UK financial and professional services figures. The key test of global regulation is not necessarily its quantity, but its quality and effectiveness. Thus far, the UK has been a world leader in that, and it is important that we continue to make that central to our policy.

My hon. Friend mentioned FinTech, and I am very pleased that he did, because I have constituents, including one of my councillors, working in the FinTech sector and there are real opportunities there. The ability to retain young talent in the UK is critical here; that applies also to young lawyers and to young professionals right across the board, so it is vital that we have a regime for immigration that not only does that in practice, but sets the right tone.

That is why I am pleased that we have scrapped the £65 fee for the settled status scheme; I rather regret that we ever had it to start with. I have in my constituency many EU-national professionals, working in the City of London, the west end and other sectors. They have been settled with their families in places such as Chislehurst and Bromley—commuter land—for many years, and the suggestion that they were going to have to pay to remain somewhere where they had already put down their roots and that they regarded as home sent the wrong signals. I am pleased that the Government thought twice about that, and I hope that can be reflected in the tone of our approach to our EU friends and neighbours hereafter.

However, we must bear in mind that it goes beyond that. International workers make up 40% of the City’s workforce and 35% of London’s finance and insurance jobs. Many of those are EU nationals; others will come from elsewhere, but having that welcoming and open approach is critical. Successful market economies are only successful if they have that open and broadminded approach, and it is important that we as the UK Parliament recognise and articulate that as strongly as we can.

Finally, sometimes people think that financial services are purely about profit; they see the City purely in terms of big financial institutions. The City of London does a great deal to encourage responsible business practice as well, and the two do not need to be separate. The financial services sector is one of the most active and engaged in corporate community investment across the country, as I see in some of the firms based in my constituency or where constituents of mine work.

New research that the City of London Corporation has published indicates that financial and professional services firms gave £535 million in cash and in-kind donations to various forms of community investment in 2017. It is worth saying that although a flourishing financial services sector is important to the economy, its leaders and the practitioners I know from my constituency also want to ensure that they pay their fair share not only to the Exchequer, but in kind to the communities that they serve. That is not separate from the day-to-day workings of our economy and our lives, but central to it, and I hope that this debate helps to bring that home.

Graham Stringer Portrait Graham Stringer (in the Chair)
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Just before I call Lee Rowley, I will say that I intend to call the Scottish National party spokesperson at 10.30 am.

10:24
Lee Rowley Portrait Lee Rowley (North East Derbyshire) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Stringer. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Bim Afolami) on securing this debate; in my view, we do not talk enough about financial services in this place.

Although financial services are unfashionable and often a thing of derision, the blunt reality, as we have heard today, is that even 10 years after the financial crisis, the industry contributes a staggering £70 billion to our Exchequer. Whether or not we like banks, insurance companies and asset managers, the ultimate point is that they pay for a lot of our public services, and we should focus more on what they are doing and how we can ensure that they do more in this country.

This is important for me on a personal level, because before I came to this place, I worked in financial services, both in London and across the country, for the best part of 10 years. I was glad to see the regional nature and significance of financial services brought home in this debate. For most of the past 15 years, I was technically based about 30 minutes north of here, near Euston station, but I spent probably 60% of my time with my teams in Sheffield, Leeds, Bootle, Manchester, Leicester and elsewhere. I was on the road all the time. In places such as Bootle, which are not necessarily associated with financial services, we find a substantial number of people employed in these kinds of industries, which are major anchor employers for many of those communities.

We Brits like to be very cynical about things such as financial services. We like to say that they are not working for us, that they do not deliver for us and that there are huge problems—and to some extent there are. I am absolutely apoplectic with rage about what the Royal Bank of Scotland has done in closing down a bank branch in my major town, Dronfield, a few weeks ago. I understand the economic challenges of a retail network, but people have a right to be angry about the way that RBS did it; there was a lack of conversation and real engagement with constituents.

When we put aside all that, the reality is that the industry has been highly successful. and highly important to our country—though I do not dispute its controversial nature—and we must ensure that it remains so. Those are not just words. This industry gives people in North East Derbyshire the opportunity to set up their own business by giving them access to the financing that my hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden talked about. It allows people to own their home—the new houses that are being bought in North East Derbyshire—and ensures that small and medium-sized enterprises in my constituency have the opportunity to grow.

I will touch briefly on Brexit. I come from a different position from my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) on this. I want a deal, too, but I want a good deal. It is incumbent on us to accept that there are circumstances in which we may have to go to a no-deal position. We cannot accept just any deal, or we might as well have not bothered with the last two years and simply accepted what the EU gave us the day after 2016.

I am the chairman of the all-party parliamentary group on alternative lending and vice-chair of the APPG for challenger banks and building societies. More importantly, I am doing a fellowship with a fantastic institution, the Industry and Parliament Trust, going around a number of banks and talking about the future of banking. Although there will be issues, and we do not want to create problems with business models unless we have to, I believe that the level of preparation in this industry is high, and the understanding of what needs to be done is good. We may have to accept no deal in certain circumstances, although I hope we will not; it will be down to EU intransigence if we do.

My point, in the brief time I have left, is that Brexit is not the big thing for this industry. We in this place are obsessed with Brexit in a way that I think is incredibly unhealthy and that will only get worse in the next few weeks. The actual challenges for this industry are much broader than Brexit. They are about FinTech, and how we ensure that we increase the number of people operating in FinTech here and that this remains a fantastic place to work. They are about artificial intelligence and how we incorporate it into financial services in the long term. They are about regulation. I have a particular interest in capital regulation, having worked in risk for the last two years before I came here, and I simply do not understand some of the directions we are going in on capital regulation. I cannot explain all that in 45 seconds, but I am sure there will be another time to discuss that.

There are key challenges around disintermediation and how we ensure that banking as a whole gets closer to customers. We will have a huge problem with insurance in the coming decade; insurance is based on a model in which we pool risk, on the basis that we do not fully understand the customer base we are serving. As we get more and more knowledgeable, from a data perspective, about individuals, the pooling of risk becomes a conceptual challenge that we will have to get through. We have a huge problem with customer services. Often in banking and financial services, people feel done to, rather than done with. We have to work with the industry to understand why that is.

I am conscious that my time is short, but ultimately I agree with my hon. Friends that this is an important area that needs more debate. We need to ensure that we develop our country, so that more banks, insurance companies and asset managers are investing here, and staying here longer, to create the wealth that we all know is vital for our public services.

10:30
Kirsty Blackman Portrait Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
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Congratulations to the hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Bim Afolami) for bringing the debate. It is important that we talk about the UK as a financial services hub, the contribution to the economy, and the number of jobs in this area.

At lot of the statistics have already been discussed, and as time is relatively short, I will not go over them. I would like to mention Edinburgh, which is the largest financial services centre in the UK after London. It is also a major European centre for asset management and asset servicing. It has been at the forefront of the life assurance market for more than 200 years, which is pretty impressive. Think about the depth of knowledge that companies have developed over 200 years of providing services to people in the asset management space. In 2017, around 33,000 people were working in Edinburgh’s financial services and insurance sector, which is a significant proportion of the population of not only Edinburgh, but Scotland.

Within Scotland, the financial services sector is not confined to Edinburgh. Large banks have technology hubs in Glasgow, and Aberdeen has financial and professional services jobs, for example in major accounting firms that are servicing the oil and gas industry. As the hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden said, this is not exclusively a London thing. When reading the stats, I was surprised to find that 50% of jobs in financial services are outside London. I had expected the sector to be more London-centric, so it was interesting to read that, and to think about the vast numbers of people in the sector; we know how many people in London work in financial services, but there are a significant number of people doing so outside the City as well.

I will focus on Brexit, as Members would expect, given that the Scottish National party is the party in this place that has consistently and vociferously opposed any Brexit. We have said that if we are to have any Brexit, we need full single market and customs union membership, which would protect our right to access some of the services that we would be able to have post EU exit.

Financial services firms and their money are leaving the UK because of Brexit; they are genuinely voting with their wallets. Since the 2016 referendum, $1 trillion-worth of assets have been moved from the UK to the rest of Europe according to Ernst & Young, which is a significant amount of money. According to Bloomberg, Deutsche Bank AG is repatriating at least €400 billion to Frankfurt; JP Morgan is taking €200 billion there, Goldman Sachs €60 billion, Citigroup €50 billion and Morgan Stanley €40 billion. Those are significant amounts of money.

Bloomberg has said that London could lose 10,000 banking jobs and 20,000 jobs in wider financial services. To put that in context, professional services represent 12% of the contribution to the British economy. Losing those jobs in financial and professional services, losing that investment, and losing the centres of large financial services organisations as they move would be a significant hit to the Treasury.

When we have discussed Brexit in this place, we have not had enough discussion of services. We have had in-depth discussion about tariffs, for example, but if we think about the contribution made to the economy by services, compared with the export or import of goods, services are a huge part of the economy. It surprised me that when the UK Government set out on the path of trying to work out which Brexit would suit, they did not say, “We are going to bat for services. Services are the key thing that we will put front and centre, and we will fight for access to services markets.” That would have been a far more sensible option for the Government than saying, “The most important thing is clamping down on freedom of movement. We are happy to ditch our access to services markets, simply so that we can get rid of our citizens’ right to freedom of movement.” That was an incredibly poor decision, and we will all pay the price.

On the impacts on the single market and our options— I am aware that there is not a huge amount of time, so I will whizz through this—one of the biggest concerns raised is data transfer post Brexit, whether there is a deal or a no-deal Brexit. There are issues to do with compliance with the general data protection regulation. For example, if a motorist crashes their car in Europe and they are insured by a UK firm, it is important that the data can be transferred, so that the claim can be paid. If there are barriers in place because we are outside the single market, or because we are outside the GDPR regime as it is set up in Europe, that is a major issue for ensuring that those claims are paid.

I have tackled the Government about the lack of reciprocity in some of the secondary legislation that has been brought in. They had immediately assumed that we would not have reciprocal arrangements with the EU in a no-deal scenario, whereas I come from the point of view that we should always have reciprocal arrangements with the EU. Once there was regulatory divergence, a further statutory instrument could be laid before Parliament to change the position around reciprocity. It concerns me that the Government have refused to do that.

I will focus briefly on people, as the issue was brought up a lot in the debate. In some sectors of the capital markets, EU27 citizens account for as much as a quarter of all staff in the UK. That is a significant stat. If the UK Government’s settled status scheme makes people feel unwelcome, and they therefore choose to go back to the EU country where they were born, that is a major concern. There is another issue around short-term visas. A lot of large companies have bases in other countries and require people to come over for a short period. The UK Government have suggested that the visa scheme will allow for 12-month visas; somebody might only be here for three months, and then the company might want somebody else for three months. That causes a real problem for companies, with regard to ensuring flexibility in their workforce.

To sum up, everything relating to Brexit that the Government have decided on has been disadvantageous to financial services. Anybody who talks about a low tax, low regulation system causes me major problems; I have real issues with that. For 20 years of my life, Scotland had a Conservative Government for which we did not vote. Conservative Back Benchers are talking about a low tax, low regulation system that we have not voted for. I wonder why people—and the Government—cannot understand why Scotland wants to be an equal partner in the EU, rather than a member of the UK, where we are having these things done to us against our will.

10:37
Anneliese Dodds Portrait Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op)
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It is a pleasure to participate in this debate, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Bim Afolami) on securing it. It has been an interesting debate, particularly when it comes to hearing about how Members’ professional experience has informed their approach to these matters in Parliament.

As many Members have said, financial and related professional services are an important area of the UK economy, and they contribute just over a twentieth of the UK’s overall economic output. There are interesting developments in the sector, which has traditionally not reflected the diversity of UK society. With the Women in Finance charter, changes are being made to reduce the pay gap. In relation to other characteristics, action is being taken to increase the number of people in the sector who have disabilities or are from black and minority ethnic or working class backgrounds.

We have discussed the fact that many people in the sector are not based in London or the south-east. I will add one statistic: there are more than 100,000 people employed in banking and finance in the north-west, which makes it the area with the third-largest number of people working in the sector, outside London and the south-east.

We have had an interesting discussion this morning about the sector’s tax contribution. Reference has been made to research undertaken by PwC that suggested that about 1p in every 10p of Government revenue comes from the sector. Let us be clear that that is counting the tax contributions of everybody who works in the sector, so it is not just looking at corporate taxation. As we all know, the corporation tax rate has been reduced. That has meant that the amount of corporation tax, in relative terms, has reduced. In absolute terms, it has gone up, but that is because these banks and so on have returned to profitability after the financial crash, so actually the burden has gone down in that area. Of course, it has also gone down when it comes to the bank levy, which has been scaled back. A surcharge has been applied as well, but when we look at both of them over time, we see that that burden is also going down.

Reference was made to stamp duty on shares. That stamp duty brings in about £3 billion of Government revenue a year. It is one of the most efficient and least avoided taxes, and for that reason Labour is considering extending it as part of a financial transactions tax. I would be very happy to talk to the hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden about how that would work.

As many hon. Members have said, financial services contribute significantly to Britain’s exports. In 2016, they were worth about £61 billion, with a surplus of £51 billion over imports of—yes, obviously—£11 billion. Of course, that is very significant in a situation in which other areas that traditionally were important for Britain’s export strength face tremendous headwinds, not least in relation to manufacturing, given the current uncertainty about Brexit.

As the hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden rightly mentioned, the UK is increasingly integrated into global markets. I would argue that the UK is already a very important hub when it comes to the Chinese financial markets, for example. About two thirds of renminbi payments outside mainland China and Hong Kong flow through London, so we are already catching quite a lot of that business. In addition, a number of Chinese firms have established themselves here. However, we need to be clear: yes, that activity is increasing, but, as others have said, we have to be sanguine about its current size. TheCityUK, in its report entitled “Key Facts about the UK as an international financial centre”, says that only about 0.4% of UK financial services exports currently go to China. That may of course increase in the future, but if we compare that with the 44% of our exports that go to the EU, there is a massive difference. As my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer has intimated many times, it must continue to be possible for our financial services companies to win business across Europe and, reciprocally, for European companies to win business here.

As I have said many times during delegated legislation Committees on no-deal legislation, the UK Government have failed to prioritise sufficiently our financial services. I absolutely agree with the comments in that regard by the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman). We appear to have accepted an outcome whereby equivalence, rather than passporting, is the likely eventuating circumstance, and of course that equivalence will operate on virtually exactly the same basis as it currently does for nations such as the US and Japan, which are far less dependent on access to the EU27’s markets than the UK is. On the question of how equivalence would work in the future, the point is that it would work the same for all third countries. If there were to be a stricter regime generally, that would apply to us in just the same way as it would to Japan and the US—the point is that it can also be removed at any point, from the perspective of the EU Commission—rather than there somehow being a more onerous regime for the UK, which I think would not be the case.

I very much associate myself with the remarks by the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) concerning the current legal services conundrums and how they can have some kind of certainty on many regulatory issues.

Only very late in the day did our Government start to stress the shared interest of the UK and the EU27 in maintaining access to UK financial services. That was an enormous shame, because we have a mutual interest both in financial stability and resilience and in ensuring that the EU27 can continue to access the deep pool of capital that is available via our financial services. That recognition came only after a much longer period, sadly, in which a very damaging zero-sum narrative had developed, with the cut in corporation tax suggesting an intention to race to the bottom on tax and regulatory standards. That was immensely frustrating. What the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Craig Tracey) described in relation to the insurance industry is actually what I am finding right across the financial services sector. There is no appetite anywhere, from what I can see, for a bonfire of regulations. Actually, the concern is to try to prevent regulatory turbulence and ensure that there is co-ordination into the future, and yet a picture has developed of a zero-sum approach whereby the UK would seek to reduce those regulations. I think that that has been very damaging.

On that issue, although I agreed with much that the hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden said, I did not agree with his comments about EU regulation. Actually, one root of the financial crisis was the misalignment of risk with reward. That was targeted by the cap on bankers’ bonuses, and rightly so. A second root of the financial crisis was the lack of transparency in financial markets—dark pool trading and so on. That was targeted by MiFID, which encouraged many other countries to adopt the kind of transparency standards that existed in the UK before. I therefore think that we need to be very careful about mounting any kind of wholesale assault on those regulatory systems. When it comes to having robust regulation of systemic providers of market infrastructure, I think that that is a very sensible approach and, indeed, it is one that has been supported a lot of the time by UK actors.

Co-ordination of regulation will become ever more important with more innovation in delivery models of financial services. I strongly agree with the comments by the hon. Member for Henley (John Howell), who is no longer in his place, about the need for regulations to keep in step with new developments—for example, in relation to digital currencies. I also agree with the comments made about the workforce, who are incredibly important. We need to ensure that we still have access to people from other countries who can contribute so much to our financial services.

I am a little surprised that we have not talked much in this debate about the contribution of financial services to investment, particularly in business. We need to be clear about what has happened over time. In 1988, almost a third of banks’ UK lending went to businesses. It is now less than a tenth, so there has been an incredible change over time. The Labour party thinks that we need to do something to deal with that. We need to learn from what other countries have done in relation to national investment banks—KfW in Germany, in particular. We need to look at the RBS branch network. I share the anger of the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Lee Rowley) about the closure of some of that network.

Of course, we need to focus on vulnerable consumers as well. Although we have seen many positive innovations in that space, that often has not been the case for consumers on low incomes. I will add one statistic to this debate, which is that about one in three families in the UK do not have the financial wherewithal to pay for a new cooker if their current one stops working. That quite extreme lack of financial resilience is now very present in our communities. Consumer credit debt is still far too high, not least for people with overdrafts, credit card debt and/or hire purchase debt. We need to see much more strenuous activity on that. I was very pleased to hear the comments of the hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden about credit unions in that regard. Yet again, I urge the Government to focus on better integrating credit unions into the Help to Save programme. I also ask the Government to look again at having a proper tribunal process for the businesses that were dealt with so badly during the RBS Global Restructuring Group scandal, so that there is some redress for small firms that may have been impacted on by banks’ practices.

Graham Stringer Portrait Graham Stringer (in the Chair)
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May I request that the Minister leaves a small space of time at the end of the debate for the mover of the motion to wind up?

10:48
Robert Jenrick Portrait The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Robert Jenrick)
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I thank all hon. Friends who have spoken in the debate and my hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Bim Afolami) for raising this important issue. We both enjoyed careers in the City before coming to this place, and it sounds as though those late nights were worth it after all—he has been able to use his experience in this place. I have always thought that there are some similarities between working as a City lawyer and coming here: late nights, with difficult people, spent negotiating the finer details of agreements. We did usually get them over the line, so I hope that that turns out to be true here.

As my hon. Friend said—there has been wide agreement on this across the Chamber today—the UK’s financial services sector is an engine for the economy: it brings prosperity and creates jobs and growth for citizens across the country. My hon. Friend said that it is a national asset. Actually, the argument that we have been making in our negotiations with our EU partners is that it is a European and international asset, which we all want to succeed. In the European context, a loss for London and the UK—with jobs and investment going to the United States, Singapore, Hong Kong or some of the emerging markets that hon. Members have mentioned—is as likely to be a loss for Europe as it is to be a loss merely for the UK.

We do not believe that our strength is ours by right, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) made clear. We are operating in an unprecedentedly competitive global market and we have to ensure the future of the financial services sector. That will require a successful outcome in the EU negotiations. It will also require us to look to the future by embracing new technology and the opportunities that brings, and by embracing new markets.

The incredible contribution of the financial services sector to the economy has been mentioned. It contributed £131 billion in 2017, including £77 billion in exports, and there is room for more on that front. A number of colleagues have made the point well that the tax take was £75 billion last year, which helped fund public services. The sector employs more than 1 million people in all parts of the United Kingdom, two-thirds of whom are outside London—a point made strongly by the hon. Member for Oxford East (Anneliese Dodds) and others.

London has long been the global capital of finance. We want that to continue. Its strengths are multifaceted. They come from the depth and breadth of experience and talent in the ecosystem here. That stretches, as we have heard, beyond pure financial services to the law, where a number of us worked, and to accountancy, shipping and insurance, which my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Craig Tracey) mentioned. We have to view that ecosystem as something special that needs to be preserved.

London is also an attractive destination culturally, socially and in terms of diversity, all of which need to be preserved. I am married to a New Yorker who moved to London and would never leave the UK now, because she thinks that it is such a special country and that London is the world’s greatest capital city. None of those factors should be underplayed and we should not be complacent about how we can keep them going in the future.

We have had a good debate about the importance of financial services in other parts of the country. My own city of Nottingham has a significant financial services presence. For example, it is home to Experian, the credit rating company, which employs thousands of people. The hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman) mentioned the importance of Edinburgh, for example for asset management firms.

We also heard about banking in Birmingham, back office processes in Bournemouth, the insurance industry in cities such as Cardiff and Norwich, and many other examples that we must preserve and give due consideration to in the debates we are having in Parliament at the moment. I agree with hon. Members that this House and the Government need to give more consideration to the fact that our economy is 80% services-based, and that there need to be more debates about professional services and the contribution they make to the whole economy.

It is important that the UK remains a tax-competitive jurisdiction in many respects, but particularly for financial services. We are committed to the reliefs that my hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden spoke about, such as the seed investment enterprise scheme, the enterprise investment scheme and entrepreneurs’ relief, as well as the continued reduction in corporation tax, which we have just legislated for in the Finance Bill, to 17%. Together, those measures are critical to the future success of the UK in paying our way in the world and attracting investors here as an important place to live, work and form businesses.

The hon. Member for Oxford East also alluded to the importance of the financial services sector to the wider economy. Having strong capital markets in the UK is important for our venture capital industry, which is the European leader and is maturing, but there is more that it needs to do to create thriving sectors such as FinTech, the technology sector more generally and life sciences, for example in Oxford. There is also more to do in infrastructure investment, which the hon. Lady also referred to. We will shortly publish a review of how we can continue to be a strong player in financing major infrastructure projects. That will include the proposition of a national infrastructure investment bank, which has been suggested by a number of individuals, as well as by the Labour party.

It is important that the UK’s financial services sector is inclusive. The hon. Lady made an important point about diversity. Most recently, we commissioned Alison Rose to report on how we can improve the level of finance that is available to female entrepreneurs across the country, building on the charter alluded to by the hon. Lady. The Government are also committed to credit unions. The number of individuals who are members of credit unions is rising—it is now over 2 million. There has been some consolidation in the number of credit unions, but the number of members benefiting from them is increasing. I think that they now have assets of £3.3 billion. We are making a number of interventions in that respect, including a FinTech challenge fund to see how FinTech can help with some of the social problems that we have discussed in terms of access to capital.

Given that there is little time available, I am happy to write to my hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden and any other hon. Members who are interested about the measures that we have taken and are interested in taking to ensure that credit unions become more widely available, including, of course, by increasing their scope from 2 million to 3 million members and their geographical reach, which helps them to have a larger presence in big cities and different regions of the country.

Brexit has clearly been a major factor in this debate. Like my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Lee Rowley), I do not believe it would be responsible to rule out a no-deal scenario, as it is important to maintain that leverage in the negotiations, but we have to accept that this is a sector of the economy that would be significantly harmed by a no-deal exit. It would be problematic for a range of reasons, which we have discussed.

First, if we can secure a deal, it will provide an implementation period, which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst said, would smooth out those cliff edges and enable firms to prepare as we transition to the future relationship. There is no escaping the fact that while we can take a generous approach to the European Union, there is no obligation on it to reciprocate, and we cannot prepare for that in advance.

Secondly, if we leave with a deal, it will ensure that we have the political declaration and, within it, the enhanced equivalence regime that we want, to ensure that we have a continued close relationship with the European financial system. It is critical for all of us to work together in the weeks ahead to secure a deal that we can support. Of course, it must not be just any deal, but a good deal that we can support for this sector. Ultimately, that is the only way we can give the sector the assurances it needs to continue to invest and protect jobs.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden spoke about FinTech, to which I have alluded. There are now 80,000 people working in the FinTech sector in the United Kingdom. None of those jobs existed 10 years ago. We are a world leader. We have published a FinTech strategy. Of course, there is more that we might be able to do in the future. The next great opportunity is in SureTech. We are working with Lloyds of London and other parts of that industry to ensure that the same principles of open data that were taken forward by the Financial Conduct Authority can help to drive a revolution in products in the insurance industry. That is of interest both globally and to consumers in the UK, to ensure that they are protected.

We have heard about the importance of access to capital, on which the industry is reliant. We have taken a number of steps, from the patient capital review to increasing the amount of money available to the venture capital sector in the UK. There is more that we can and will do, such as working with pension funds in the UK so that they back these sorts of investments.

As we have heard, this is an industry that relies on attracting the best and brightest talent to the United Kingdom. We need to ensure that that continues. In March, we will be launching the start-up visa, which was announced last June by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. That will answer the question my hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden asked about how talented entrepreneurs in a sector such as FinTech can come to the UK. There will be no limit on the number of individuals who can benefit from that and it should be a major step forward.

We have also accepted the Migration Advisory Committee’s recommendations with respect to students. Those changes will be made in due course, which will make it easier for individuals to stay on in the UK after studying, to make a life here and to join businesses in financial services and elsewhere.

With respect to data sharing, which my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst raised, we are pursuing a comprehensive relationship with the European Union, but we will be able to deliver that only if we can secure a deal and get on to those negotiations in due course.

I hope that I have answered many of the questions that have been raised today. There were many others, and I will write to the hon. Members who raised them. We are committed to financial services sector, which is a foundation stone of the United Kingdom’s economy and is of benefit to people across the country. The critical step in the days ahead is to secure a deal that gives the sector the assurance that it needs to move forward.

10:59
Bim Afolami Portrait Bim Afolami
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I thank the Minister for his response. I would like him to write to me about credit unions, in particular, which he mentioned.

In the remaining 20 seconds, I will take on some points raised by the hon. Member for Oxford East (Anneliese Dodds). The issue with regulation is not whether we should have a bonfire of regulations. Nobody on the Government Benches, myself included, wants to see a bonfire of regulations. It is about having the most effective regulations that we can, rather than just accepting everything that has happened before.

Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).

Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Exploitation: Telford

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Westminster Hall
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11:00
Lucy Allan Portrait Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con)
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I beg to move,

That this House has considered the progress on the independent inquiry into child sexual exploitation in Telford.

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Stringer. Almost a year ago, local campaigners in Telford finally succeeded in persuading the local council to hold a Rotherham-style inquiry into child sexual exploitation in the town. The survivor-led campaign began in 2016. The issue was raised in questions and debates in Parliament, but the local authority rejected all requests. Together with all local safeguarding partners, it told the Home Secretary and the Home Office, who sent officials to Telford to see what was going on, that no inquiry was necessary. Ten men in positions of power in safeguarding signed a letter to say that there was nothing to see here.

The campaign for an inquiry was eventually successful, because courageous victims were willing to speak out and come forward. I salute their bravery. They spoke to a determined female journalist, Geraldine McKelvie, who carried out a tireless 18-month investigation. In February 2018, she finally put the shocking scale of the problem in Telford into the public domain.

The purpose of the inquiry was to hold those in authority to account, to give answers to survivors and their families, and to give our community reassurance that lessons have been learned and that everything possible is being done to ensure that our young people are not at risk. Victims and families wanted to understand what had happened and to know that their experiences would not be brushed aside and forgotten. The inquiry was supposed to restore trust in the system, to reassure people that it would be on the side of the victim, to acknowledge the fears and anxieties of our community, and to restore confidence that the authorities would protect vulnerable young people. It is hard to understand how that could not be a matter of urgency.

Child sexual exploitation is not just any crime. It has a lifelong impact on victims and their families and it affects the whole community. It is about control, manipulation and fear, and it creates long-term psychological trauma for victims and families, from which survivors struggle to recover. It is also about the failure of those in authority to act and to recognise what was happening. Let us be clear: the victims in Telford were predominantly young vulnerable women, and those in power, who had responsibility but who so often looked the other way, were predominantly men.

When the media attention moved to other towns with similar problems, I did not want victims to feel let down because, after all their courage in speaking out, nothing had really changed. I have worked with survivors, more recent victims and their families, and I want my community to know that I have an absolute sense of duty to ensure that the inquiry happens and that it delivers accountability and change.

Once the council had agreed that such an inquiry would be held, everyone expected a chair to be appointed to lead it. One senior councillor said that the appointment was to take place before the end of summer 2018. The council would then step back and let the chairman get on with it, because of course the council’s actions would be subject to scrutiny by the inquiry, hence the need for independence.

I kept a close eye on that to make sure that matters were progressing, but when I looked, I found a shocking lack of urgency. A PR executive has been appointed to position the council more favourably, along with a top firm of solicitors who are experts in dispute resolution. As to the inquiry, however, there is not even a job specification for the chair yet, no advert has been placed and no terms of reference have been drafted.

The experts in dispute resolution say that they are “designing a recruitment process” and

“looking to share their thoughts on this at future meetings with the council.”

They also say that they are,

“mindful to build in sufficient time for each of the steps involved in the recruitment process, and may add in additional steps at a later stage.”

Once the recruitment process has been completed, they will begin “designing terms of reference”.

We are one year on from when the council finally agreed that it would commission an inquiry—one year—and that battle had been fought since 2016. What progress has there been? A partner in that top firm of solicitors can now share a logo for the inquiry and is concerning themselves with typeface and colour. In that year, they have also come up with an inquiry name. I mean no disrespect to the solicitors involved, but we have to ask who is taking responsibility for this extraordinary situation.

Philip Dunne Portrait Mr Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. She has been almost uniquely at the sharp end of holding those responsible for overseeing the appalling state of affairs in Telford to account. She was quite right to call this debate to highlight the complete lack of action that she has just illustrated from those who were due to appoint the chair and get the inquiry under way. I sincerely hope that when the Minister responds, he will reassure her that he will take as keen an interest as she does in ensuring that people are held to account for the failures of local authority supervision as soon as possible.

Lucy Allan Portrait Lucy Allan
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his kind words, and for his support on this issue and many others that I deal with as the Member of Parliament for Telford.

The inquiry was meant to be for the survivors and our community. It was meant to provide assurances to our young people, and to heal and restore. It was also about accountability for those in authority. Instead, we see a slow-motion gravy train for solicitors—expensive people fussing over logos and letterheads—which sends the message that getting to the bottom of what happened in Telford is not a matter of urgency.

That is set against a history of the men in authority not taking the issue seriously. The chief inspector claimed that the female journalist sensationalised the number of victims. The chair of the safeguarding board stated that the number of victims was made up on the back of a fag packet. A male cabinet member for children’s services attacked the journalist on social media and described her and her sources as “despicable”. Others said that those who raised the issue were doing it for political gain or were responsible for Britain First and the English Defence League protesting in the town.

Those men resisted and struggled and came up with multiple reasons why no inquiry could be held. They used their positions of power to shut it down. “It will cost millions and millions,” they threatened. Well, they seem to be working hard to make that happen. Rather than getting to the bottom of the history of child sexual exploitation in the town, they are creating a tangled bureaucracy that benefits no one. People want fresh air, daylight and transparency on the issue; they do not want the inquiry to be tied up in knots for five years and to cost millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money.

When it has been gently suggested—by far more subtle means than a debate in this place—that the delays must stop, the authority’s reaction has been furious. “This is what survivors want,” it claims, which shows how completely out of touch it is. The survivors do not want multimillion-pound bureaucracy with logos and letterheads that stretches out potentially for five years. They want access to counselling; they want help to rebuild their lives; they want their experience to be acknowledged; they want answers; and they want to know that lessons have been learned, processes are in place and attitudes have changed. Why would any responsible council claim that a long, expensive, bureaucratic inquiry must be better than an efficient inquiry that delivers results?

The council could have copied the style of the Rotherham inquiry. That was what survivors asked for. The inquiry took three months to set up, it took nine months to deliver and it cost £120,000, but most importantly of all from the survivors’ perspective, it delivered real accountability. Those in authority who had failed young people were held to account. The chief executive, the director of children’s services, and the police and crime commissioner all resigned. That is not going to happen in Telford—this inquiry makes quite sure of that.

In the end, this is about accountability. Those in authority are accountable to local people, and it is the job of MPs to ensure that they hold those in power to account. It is now time for the authorities in Telford to be open with the public about the cost of this inquiry, the envisaged timescale, the objectives and the possible outcomes, and then we can let local people be the judge. It is time to see this issue from the outside looking in, and I am grateful to the media for doing just that. Can those in authority really not see how the situation looks from the outside? Can they really not see how it appears to the hundreds of survivors and to our wider community?

Child sexual exploitation is a horrendous crime and of course blame lies with the perpetrators, but we cannot and must not ignore the fact that attitudes towards vulnerable young women in communities up and down the country played their part in allowing this crime to continue unchecked. In every case of child sexual exploitation, there is a sense that the system was just not on the victims’ side; that their experience was minimised; that somehow they were to blame; and that the authorities and those in positions of power just did not work for them.

Although much has changed and we see great improvements in Telford and elsewhere, I urge the Minister, who I hold in the highest regard, to do all he can to ensure that this inquiry does not become one more example of the way in which authorities so often fail the very people they are meant to serve.

11:11
Rishi Sunak Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government (Rishi Sunak)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Mr Stringer.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Telford (Lucy Allan) on securing this important debate. I know how much she has campaigned for the victims and survivors of child sexual exploitation in her constituency, and she absolutely must be credited for keeping this important issue front and centre, both in Telford and here in Westminster. I also thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr Dunne) for being with us today, because of his interest in a neighbouring constituency.

It goes without saying that child sexual exploitation is a heinous crime. It is one of the most difficult things that we as a society have to deal with. As this issue is not my day-to-day policy responsibility, just preparing for this debate and reading through some of the material about it was difficult for me to do. It is therefore right that, at all levels of Government, we work together to provide a strong response to this crime. Together we can ensure that victims find justice, and collectively we can better understand the failings of the past, ensuring that we not only help victims but protect future generations of children.

I will start by setting out what the Government are doing, and have been doing, on this issue. I am pleased to say that the Government’s ambitious “Tackling child sexual exploitation” work has created a step change in the national response to sexual exploitation and violence against children and young people. The Home Office has established a new investigative team in the National Crime Agency. We have invested in new frontline response for victims and services, for example by recruiting an extra 100 specialist rape and child sexual abuse prosecutors.

The Department for Education has funded an independent response unit to boost capacity and expertise in local areas, which has supported over 20,000 professionals. The Home Office has also provided significant extra investment to the law enforcement response, through the police transformation fund. This has led to an increasing number of cases being prosecuted in the courts and heavy sentences being handed down.

My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary also recognises the grooming threats that our children face online. In September, he announced a £21 million investment to improve how law enforcement agencies reduce the volume of offending and pursue the most prolific offenders. There is much more to be done to help to combat this global threat, including by the digital industry, but I believe that the Home Office continues to galvanise global action, and it presses for a co-ordinated industry-wide response.

The Government want victims to have the confidence to report crimes, knowing that they will get the support they need, and that everything will be done to bring offenders to justice. That why in each of the last three years the Ministry of Justice has provided £7 million of funding for non-statutory organisations that support victims and survivors of sexual abuse, including child sexual abuse.

Finally, inquiries are an important way of shedding light on the causes and circumstances of events that have given rise to public concern. That is why in 2015 the Home Office launched the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse to get to the truth, expose what has gone wrong and learn lessons for the future.

I turn to Telford specifically. First of all, I am glad that both Telford and Wrekin Council and West Mercia police are committed to tackling child sexual exploitation in their area. Of course, that must be their priority. I have seen that over the last decade they have forged a model of partnership working, established a taskforce to tackle this issue together, and have been noted by Ofsted for their work. In 2012, they brought seven perpetrators to justice, making their area the second place in the country to do so.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Telford mentioned, counselling and support are of course of paramount importance for survivors—in her words, they need such support to help them to rebuild their lives—so I was glad to see that the council is focused on that. It is responsible for commissioning services. I understand that very soon, a new support contract will start. It has the approval of the Telford Survivors Committee and was rightly conceived by a partnership of the local council, the police and the clinical commissioning group. I hope that all involved focus on what my hon. Friend has said and work together constructively to help all victims and survivors to rebuild their lives.

I am also glad that the council finally agreed to hold an independent inquiry into child sexual exploitation, which many people, including my hon. Friend, had called for. Ultimately, that was the council’s decision; it is the council’s inquiry. I welcome its openness to additional scrutiny through this process.

It is in the interests of all concerned in Telford that the inquiry be set up in a transparent manner that meets the needs of survivors. The council has rightly commissioned an independent body to oversee this process. Appointing the right chair will be key to the inquiry’s success; I agree with my hon. Friend that that should now be prioritised. I also understand her concern that costs associated with the inquiry appear to be rising, and the council should be held to account for that, as is appropriate. The final thing to say is that the council has committed to this independent inquiry, so it must deliver on it, properly and expeditiously, to provide answers and justice for the survivors.

In conclusion, as I said at the outset, we must all learn from mistakes. I again thank my hon. Friend for her tireless commitment to this cause. Only by learning from and tackling the failings of the past, both locally and nationally, can we ensure that we not only help victims and survivors in a better way but, vitally, protect future generations of children from this insidious crime.

Question put and agreed to.

11:18
Sitting suspended.

Offshore Helicopter Safety

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Westminster Hall
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[Sir Henry Bellingham in the Chair]
14:30
Alex Cunningham Portrait Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
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I beg to move,

That this House has considered offshore helicopter safety.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Henry. As many of us are aware, the oil and gas industry remains very significant to our economy. Tens of millions of barrels are produced every year and hundreds of billions of pounds have found their way to the public purse in taxes over the years. The industry employs huge numbers of people, and I think we can be proud of what has been achieved, although many of us would have preferred to see Governments through the ’80s create some form of sovereign wealth fund to support our country in the leaner years, rather than squandering much of that money on tax cuts for the rich.

I am here to make the case for an independent public inquiry into the discredited offshore helicopter system and for much-needed reforms to the regulatory framework. Helicopter transport is the lifeblood of the offshore oil and gas industry, transporting some 50,000 workers to their workplace. The remoteness and number of North sea installations make helicopters the only viable mode of transport. Some of the issues I will raise about the maximising economic recovery policy and about commerciality might have been more appropriately addressed to the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, but I trust that if the Minister cannot address them today, he will work with fellow Ministers to do so in writing.

It is important to recall the tragic statistics of recent times. Thirty-three offshore workers and helicopter crew have died as a result of accidents across the North sea in the past 10 years, and 65 workers and crew have been rescued in that time. In the UK sector, there have been five helicopter accidents, two of which were fatal, taking the lives of 20 workers and crew. All the incidents have involved the Super Puma models H225 or AS332L2.

Three of the incidents, including the one that killed 16 workers and crew on 1 April 2009, were attributable to technical failures of the main rotor gearbox. The Super Puma fleet was grounded in October 2012 and had just returned to UK continental shelf operations when an AS332L2 ditched in the sea off Sumburgh on 23 August 2013, with the loss of four lives. A month after the August 2013 incident, the Civil Aviation Authority launched a strategic review of offshore helicopter operations, resulting in the publication of CAP 1145 on 20 February 2014. That is the regulator’s sole official response to date to the series of tragic incidents and close calls involving Super Pumas between 2009 and 2013.

Super Pumas returned in the North sea in 2015, but have been grounded since May 2016, following a fatal accident in Norway on 29 April 2016 that caused the deaths of all 13 crew and passengers on board. The helicopter involved was an H225 Super Puma. The final Accident Investigation Board Norway report in July could not establish the cause of the fatigue fracture in the gearbox-operated rotor that led to catastrophic mechanical failure, but it still managed to publish 12 recommendations. They included criticism of Airbus and the European Aviation Safety Agency for failures to act effectively on recommendations on fault detection systems from the April 2009 incident in the UK sector.

The overall impression for the North sea workforce was that once again the Super Puma had failed, with deadly consequences. The trade unions, particularly the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers and Unite, sit on the committees and bodies established to promote higher safety standards in the industry, including helicopter operations. They share my concerns about this area of aviation regulation and are fully supportive of an independent public inquiry. That is not only a priority for those offshore workers on oil and gas installations that are still in production. The emergence of offshore wind as a growing element of the energy mix and the decommissioning of 1970s and 1980s-era infrastructure will require helicopter transport to deliver the workforce safely to the job and back home again for the next 10 years or more. Those workers are very much affected, too.

As an aside, I am told by the Prospect union that the withdrawal of helicopters has other impacts, with pilots and engineers losing out on personal licence payments when a helicopter is withdrawn for safety reasons. Will the Minister tell me how the pay of those workers can be protected?

We know that the manufacturer of the Super Puma, Airbus, has ceased production of the AS332L2. The Super Puma family, however, contributed to Airbus’s successful sales in 2018, with orders received for 17 Super Pumas, including the H225. Once known as the workhorse of the North sea, there is next to no prospect of it returning in either the UK or Norwegian sectors, yet that extraordinary collapse in confidence in one section of the offshore industry has merited little if any comment from the Government.

I met the Civil Aviation Authority last September and outlined my concerns regarding the Super Puma and the need for the CAA to be much clearer on its position. Due to the requirements it says it has in place, it told me that no one can see the Super Pumas re-entering service in the foreseeable future, even though the CAA had cleared them for use. What model will replace the Super Pumas and the S-92s in the long run? The Bell 525 is thought to be the only heavy model capable of operating in the North sea. Industry figures are being invited to Texas to view the new model, but it is still to be licensed for commercial sale by the Federal Aviation Agency in the United States. No other heavy model is at such an advanced stage of development. The RMT estimates that it will take nearly two years to complete, so there is no prospect of new helicopters in the North sea until late 2020.

What assessment have the Government made of the new helicopter models for the North sea market? Is there sufficient capacity in the market? Is the existing fleet in the North sea being stretched to the limit, resulting in more and more downtime, as appears to be the case? We know from worker testimonials that there are problems with resource and downtime. One group gave an example. They checked in at 6.45 am, but due to technical issues, the workers ended up spending 12 hours in the heliport. The following day, that happened again. Workers had been there for a total of 22 hours. There is a long way to go before we can reasonably expect workers to be confident in the equipment—in this case, the helicopters—that is provided for them to be able to carry out their work.

While the CAA’s CAP 1145 document improved breathing apparatus, seating configuration and window design—I believe the windows are made bigger so that people can escape more easily—the perception among many offshore workers is that CAP 1145 is too heavily weighted towards survivability in a crash, rather than crash prevention.

In correspondence with the Government on the matter, I have received a series of broad-brush replies that have done nothing to address my core concerns or those of offshore workers in my Stockton North constituency—many people in my constituency work in the North sea—and elsewhere. The Minister said in an answer to my written question on commercial pressures:

“Offshore helicopter services provide a vital link to ensure the viability of the UK’s oil and gas industry. High standards of air safety are a fundamental concern in ensuring these services are commercially viable.”

Susan Elan Jones Portrait Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is making a powerful case. I am interested that he has referred to the large number of oil and gas rig workers across the country. I imagine that in practically every constituency, someone will work in this line of work. Their safety is paramount.

Alex Cunningham Portrait Alex Cunningham
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That is most certainly so. I bid for this debate because of the importance of this issue to people across the entire country who are involved in the industry.

In answer to my written question, the Minister went on to say:

“Through the Aviation Strategy, the Government will look at its role in supporting the commercial success of operators whilst balancing this against environmental and safety concerns.”

That is all very laudable, but it should be noted that the Government’s aviation strategy, like their maritime strategy, is for the next 30 years, yet the latest consultation document, which was published just in December, makes no mention whatever of offshore helicopter transport. Can the Minister explain that omission? If he cannot, offshore workers could be forgiven for thinking that their concerns are being brushed under the carpet.

The Transport Committee’s 2014 report found that the CAA review, which led to CAP 1145, said that the Government

“did not consider the evidence that commercial pressure impacts on helicopter safety in sufficient depth.”

The Government must convene a full independent public inquiry to investigate commercial pressures on helicopter safety in the North sea operating environment. That inquiry must examine the role and effectiveness of the CAA.

Scott Mann Portrait Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for leading the debate, and furnishing us with his knowledge about helicopters. A recent International Civil Aviation Organisation report talked about the potential ban on single-engine helicopters for commercial flights, despite engine failure being responsible for only one of 19 fatal incidents in the last 10 years. Constituents have written to me saying that 49 of the 62 deaths caused by helicopter crashes were caused by pilot error. Does he agree that we should look at that evidence presented by the ICAO?

Alex Cunningham Portrait Alex Cunningham
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We should look at all the evidence relating to helicopters. That is why I am seeking a public inquiry to examine all the issues, to ensure that we come to the right conclusions and can plan a way forward. I have flown in offshore helicopters—I was not an offshore worker; I worked in public relations for the gas industry. I admire anybody and everybody who steps on to a helicopter, because it can be an uncomfortable time.

Hannah Bardell Portrait Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The detail of the hon. Gentleman’s speech is fascinating and very important. Does he agree that any worker going offshore must have confidence in their colleagues and their company that the helicopter in which they are travelling will keep them safe, and that they should not be put in a position where their health and safety is put below company profits?

Alex Cunningham Portrait Alex Cunningham
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

There is no doubt that that must be the case. As I said, I have flown on these machines myself. I wanted to be assured that everything was good. When I went, there was a group of us, and because we were inexperienced—we had never been offshore before—we had a safety man sitting next to each and every one of us to reassure us and to help us through the journey. It is critical that people have that confidence. However, people are turning up time and again to fly offshore only to be told, “Sorry, you can’t go now. There are technical issues.” Four hours later, they are given a lunch voucher, and told, “Sorry, there are still technical issues.” That does not build confidence among those who have to work offshore.

The Government rejected the Select Committee’s recommendation, and claimed that there was no evidence to support the assertions about commercial pressure and offshore helicopter safety that had persuaded the Committee to make the recommendation. Yet trade unions on the offshore helicopter safety leadership group tell me that discussion of the CAP 1145 recommendation has gone nowhere because the contractors will not jeopardise their commercial relationship with the oil and gas companies.

I am told that the CAA sits on the offshore helicopter safety leadership group—quite a mouthful—but does not take a proactive role in trying to move that issue along and to tackle the core confidence issues affecting the workforce. To my knowledge, the OHSLG has yet to take concrete action to rein the oil companies in, although I am advised that the industry is looking at a draft principle in Oil & Gas UK’s supply chain code of practice that would state:

“Contract cancellations should not be without good reason or cause. If an operator or contractor must have the ability to terminate a contract then the circumstance or risk should be outlined, explained and understood—not hidden.”

To me, that smacks of self-regulation, and is simply not good enough in such an unbalanced customer-contractor relationship. The helicopter operators are not even signatories to the existing supply chain code of practice, so they are not even within scope of the industry’s self-regulatory framework. I would be grateful for the Minister’s response to that problem, and to know what he plans to do to give teeth to some parts of the regulatory chain.

Successive surveys of offshore workers have found helicopter safety to be their No. 1 concern. Even an Airbus survey in 2017 found that 63% of offshore workers would not travel in a Super Puma again if they had the choice. That fundamental lack of choice is all the more reason for the UK Government to commission an independent inquiry into offshore helicopter safety, covering the up-to-date safety record of all offshore helicopter models; international comparisons; workforce engagement; the overall North sea helicopter market; contractual relationships, including commercial pressures; and the regulatory framework.

What is happening to bolster confidence among the workforce? Step Change in Safety has relaunched its helicopter safety awareness courses for offshore workers to attend, but they are via webinars with helicopter pilots from the main operators. Helpful though that is, it is a relaunch of existing courses and does not chime with the industry and regulatory mantra of “safety is our No. 1 priority”. In fact, it suggests a hierarchy of safety issues, with helicopter safety a secondary concern that is best dealt with by communications between pilots and their passengers.

Such an approach to passenger safety could never be contemplated in any other area of the aviation industry, and for good reason. The RMT, Unite, GMB, the British Airline Pilots Association and Nautilus formed the offshore co-ordinating group in 2015 to streamline demands and activities in the offshore oil and gas industry and the associated supply chain to work for positive change. We have to welcome that sort of work.

The ongoing financial viability of the UK continental shelf’s remaining 10 billion to 20 billion barrels of oil reserves—a core aim of Government policy—is intrinsically linked to the commercial fortunes and safety of helicopter operations in the North sea. Yet there is little evidence to suggest that that link is included in the high-level discussions in industry to set standards for commercial contracts in the sector, especially in helicopter transport. I remain very concerned about workers’ lack of confidence in the CAA and others who are responsible for their safety. In fact, workers’ confidence in offshore safety has been declining over the last decade, demonstrating that the measures of the regulator and the Government have not been successful in allaying workers’ fears and concerns.

After the Turøy tragedy—I hope I pronounced that correctly—the CAA, along with its Norwegian counterpart, grounded the aircraft type, in a move that was supported by the European Aviation Safety Agency and trade unions across the North sea. The Accident Investigation Board Norway began its investigation shortly afterwards, but before it could produce a detailed report, the EASA summarily lifted the restrictions on the Super Pumas in October 2016, with next to no explanation to the workforce or their trade unions. The UK and Norway’s respective civil aviation authorities did the right thing and opted to keep the restrictions in place, despite the EASA’s incredibly hasty decision.

By 2017, there were threats of lawsuits in the US against Airbus by helicopter companies because of the differing regulatory approach to the Super Pumas in the North sea. In July 2017, an extraordinary meeting of the OHSLG was announced, albeit at short notice. That was quickly followed by a briefing note explaining that the meeting was being called to discuss a decision on the Super Puma and a CAA-embargoed press release announcing that restrictions on the H225 and the AS332L2 aircraft were being lifted. That action was taken despite the fact that the AIBN was still conducting its investigations and would not produce its final report for another year.

Some suspect that commercial pressures affected the decision to reissue airworthiness certificates. Whether such pressures took the form of the Super Puma manufacturer Airbus lobbying at European level or the threat of legal action from the European Free Trade Association against the UK and Norwegian Governments, I cannot say, but the Minister must look into the matter because it is bringing the regulatory framework into disrepute.

Airbus appears to have completely washed its hands of the North sea Super Puma issue. In February 2018, it told a meeting of the British offshore oil and gas industry all-party parliamentary group that it was preparing to hold town hall-style meetings with offshore workers in spring and summer 2018 to address the core confidence issues. Those meetings with the workforce did not take place.

After many years of working on this policy area—during which time the oil and gas industry, the Government and the regulators have all repeatedly testified to their commitment to high safety standards for offshore workers and offshore helicopter fleet crew—I can see limited effective work going on to tackle the core confidence issues. I hope that the Minister will reassure us that he will take action and seriously consider a public inquiry, so that the confidence of the people who do the jobs that drive a large slice of our nation’s wealth will be restored.

14:50
Colin Clark Portrait Colin Clark (Gordon) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Henry. I congratulate the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) on securing such an important debate.

Oil and gas is of enormous importance to Gordon, to the constituencies of the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman) and my hon. Friend the Member for Banff and Buchan (David Duguid), and to several other constituencies in the north-east of Scotland. Aberdeen International airport is the transit hub of the UK continental shelf oil and gas industry, with the busiest heliport in the Western world, if not the entire world, and I am very proud to say that it is in my constituency.

As the hon. Member for Stockton North recognises, the oil and gas industry supports 280,000 jobs in the UK. Along with the Norwegian sector, the UK continental shelf is considered the most safety-conscious offshore industry in the world. Industry and regulators recognise that helicopters are the only practical means of transporting the workforce to and from the rigs; as he well knows, it takes up to an hour and a half in a helicopter to get to the rigs, let alone to the operations in Orkney and Shetland.

There are many areas that we can agree on. I have visited dozens of oil and gas businesses and all the helicopter operators, and as the hon. Gentleman says, they all live by the same motto: “The safety of our workforce comes first. If there are safety concerns, helicopters do not fly.” We all recognise that the North sea is a hostile environment and that hydrocarbons pose serious hazards, but what is important is how we manage the risks. Helicopters are essential to the North sea— without them there would be no industry—so we all want a safe means of transport to and from the rigs. It is important that public confidence be maintained, particularly among those who work offshore, many of whom live in the north-east.

There is excellent workforce engagement. As the hon. Gentleman mentioned, Step Change in Safety has various safety initiatives that have brought the various parties on board. Workforce engagement has come a long way in the past 20 or 30 years: operators, oil and gas producers, the supply sector, the trade unions and offshore workers meet regularly, and Step Change has been instrumental in giving everyone an equal voice. It is worth mentioning that trade unions represent only 10% of the North sea offshore workforce.

The industry has an excellent track record of engaging with the entire workforce. It has very high salaries, is technologically very advanced, is important to the economy of Scotland and the entire UK, and has inclusive umbrella representation. The Oil and Gas Authority, which looks after deals in the sector, tries to encourage organisations to work together—that is a big part of the extension of oil and gas in the North sea well into the middle of this century. There is a new national decommissioning centre in Newburgh, which is also in my constituency, and a planned national subsea centre. Oil and gas is an industry in which the companies and the workforce are encouraged to co-operate; it may be unusual among sectors, but commercially it is very co-operative. It is also progressive and driven by technology—one might say that it is the space industry of the United Kingdom economy. It has made enormous leaps.

Obviously there are commercial pressures, because the price of oil and gas goes up and down, but the main thing I get from people I visit in the industry is that nobody is complacent about safety. No one can visit the headquarters of an oil and gas company without being forced to hang on to a railing. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Aberdeen North and my hon. Friend the Member for Banff and Buchan, my colleagues from the north-east, are both nodding at that. We would quite literally have a stop order served on us if we went into the headquarters of BP or Shell and did not use the railing. I do not know what anyone there would make of health and safety in the Houses of Parliament—I imagine that they would have cleared us all out a long time ago.

As I said, oil and gas is a progressive industry. Some may suggest that the slump in oil prices has led to safety being downplayed, but that is simply not borne out by the evidence from everyone I have spoken to in the industry, in Step Change in Safety and in Oil & Gas UK. None of them has suggested to me that there has been a deterioration in health and safety.

The Sikorsky S-92 is now the main heavy lift helicopter; 20 Leonardo AW139s also operate in the North sea, and the Airbus H175 is the new medium lift. The number of people who fly in helicopters is reducing, because there are more trips but with fewer crew on board. The Super Puma 225 no longer moves offshore workers in the North sea—it is to the industry’s credit that it has recognised the unwillingness to use that helicopter.

Alex Cunningham Portrait Alex Cunningham
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

As I understand it, the Super Pumas are no longer in use because the CAA has put such stringent conditions on them that they are not commercially viable to run. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that although the industry as a whole may continue to consult, the consultation activity directly related to helicopter safety has reduced? Airbus did not bother holding the town hall meetings that it promised, while meetings of the OHSLG have been few and far between.

Colin Clark Portrait Colin Clark
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I recognise what the hon. Gentleman says, but I think Airbus did not hold the town hall meetings because it realised that that approach was not constructive. The workforce have told the commercial part of the organisation that they no longer want to board the Super Puma. The industry has well and truly recognised that, and has not tried to force the Super Pumas back in.

Let me move on to resilience. There are three main airframes that operate in the North sea. The other day I had a meeting with Oil & Gas UK, which is doing a review of resilience. There is no pressure to bring the 225 back in, because if there is a fault and one of the three helicopters ends up grounded for a week or two, there will still be absolute resilience in the system—obviously at any one time there are crews on the rigs, but they can be operated with fewer crew. I understand that if one of the main helicopters has to be grounded, the Super Puma 225 will not have to be brought in, because it will be easier to bring in helicopters from elsewhere.

I am trying not to discuss Brexit at every opportunity, but the plan is for us to have associate membership of EASA, and the CAA has a contingency arrangement of recognising EASA licences. People I have met in the helicopter companies are reasonably comfortable that there are contingency arrangements that will not jeopardise resilience with respect to the crew or helicopters that are operating, or other helicopters being brought in.

As the hon. Gentleman says, aviation in the oil and gas industry is regulated independently of other organisations. Following research projects and learning from tragedies, the Civil Aviation Authority has drawn up a list of improvements, including prohibiting flights in severe weather in case of ditching, ensuring that there are emergency breathing systems, and managing the largest passengers in case of escape—it is a fact of modern society that passengers are getting bigger, so escape hatches have had to be made bigger.

The air accidents investigation branch is well respected. The Transport Committee’s 2014 report, which the hon. Gentleman mentioned, included a request that the AAIB stay in far closer contact with victims’ families. We recognise that those families’ experiences are enormously traumatic, so it is important that the AAIB stay much more closely in touch with them while it goes through its process. The Committee’s thorough findings highlighted several issues that have been acted on—it is all in the public domain. What I am trying to say is that oil and gas is not an industry that is in hiding; it is a very public industry with several very effective regulators. It is being open and is working closely with its workforce—not just the 10% in the trade unions, but the rest of the offshore workforce. As I said, there is also a clear plan for when we leave the EU.

In summary, oil and gas is an industry with a safety-driven culture. It would be fair to say that no industry in the United Kingdom is quite as safety-driven as oil and gas, apart from perhaps the nuclear industry. We all recognise that an accident in oil and gas can be cataclysmic, and the industry does everything it can to control that. It is a very open industry. It is open to regulators and to public scrutiny. It is not trying to hide anything, and is questioned and held to account by legislators and regulators. Despite all that, there is no complacency. The industry is driven by the recognition that it has to be constantly on its guard, because that is so important, not just for the helicopters, but for the whole offshore and onshore industry.

Suggestions of a public inquiry are not necessarily constructive at this point, because of the work and the workforce engagement that has gone on. I absolutely agree with the hon. Member for Livingston (Hannah Bardell), who said that we all expect to go to work in a safe environment, although she might reflect on the fact that we work in a building that is probably not safe, and we should perhaps be having a word with the authorities of this building.

There is one anomaly in the 2014 report that I am not comfortable with. We still have not seen a fatal accident inquiry on the 2013 Shetland accident, which would be heard by a sheriff court in Scotland. That inquiry may have a view on a public inquiry, and I would respect that, when the fatal accident inquiry eventually happens, which I hope it does.

The hon. Member for Stockton North mentioned Step Change in Safety, which is running awareness courses on helicopters. That is very positive. This is a safety-culture industry, which is working with the trade unions and the rest of the workforce. No one is complacent about safety in the oil and gas industry.

I have written to the Department and discussed an independent review that would bring together stakeholders and engage all parties in looking at resilience on the commercial and the contractual side, and would be an open forum. It would be industry and workforce engagement, rather than a room full of lawyers, discussing evidence that we believe is already 100% out there. A public inquiry could undermine a lot of the hard work that has been done to date.

The public bodies and industry groups are all still working in the same direction. This is not an industry that is delivering its swan song, or that is going backwards. It is an industry driven by safety and, equally, by the commercial realities of modern business. It is a reflection on the engagement with the workforce that the 225 is not in operation and that there is no contingency plan to bring it back into operation on the UK continental shelf or in Norway, even though it operates elsewhere in the world and with our own military.

All loss of life is an absolute tragedy and is devastating for families. I think particularly of those in the north-east of Scotland. My good colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Banff and Buchan, worked in the industry and lives with the history and the memory of the tragedies that have happened in the North sea. I finish where I started. The safety of our workforce comes first. If there are safety concerns, helicopters do not fly.

15:03
Alistair Carmichael Portrait Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Henry. I congratulate the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) very warmly on obtaining this debate

The hon. Member for Gordon (Colin Clark) spoke about the importance of the oil and gas industry to north-east Scotland and to my constituency of Orkney and Shetland. He is absolutely right. He also spoke about the safety culture in the industry, and he is right about that as well. However, it is sensible for us all to remember why that safety culture is as it is. Let us not forget that it was the Piper Alpha tragedy and the inquiry that followed, conducted by Lord Cullen, that really brought that culture right back to where it needed to be. The danger is that the further away we get from an incident like that, the more likely people are to forget the reasons why we have the rules that we do.

As the hon. Member for Stockton North said, there is a lack of confidence among the North sea workforce about helicopter safety. Whether that is right or wrong, justified or not, there is no escaping that fact. It is a legitimate question for us parliamentarians to ask what can be done to restore that.

The oil and gas industry in the North sea and to the west of Shetland is absolutely crucial to the continuing growth and performance of our economy. The effective and safe operation of helicopters within that industry is absolutely central to it. I still have concerns about whether a public inquiry is the best way forward. My principal concern relates to my experience of the 2013 crash of the Super Puma off Sumburgh Head at the south end of Shetland; I was the constituency MP, although the four people killed were not constituents of mine. They came from different parts of the United Kingdom, from Inverness all the way down to Winchester.

It is surely unacceptable that five and a half years after that tragic accident, the families have still not had the closure that they will get from a fatal accident inquiry. This is not an isolated incident; the fatal accident inquiry on the Super Puma that crashed about 240 km to the north-east of Peterhead in 2009 was not held until 2013—more than four years after the accident. We are now at five and a half years, and we do not yet know whether there will be criminal proceedings or a fatal accident inquiry. As the deaths took place in the course of employment, holding a fatal accident inquiry is mandatory, unless criminal proceedings are to be held.

One of the elements of delay relates to the work of the air accidents investigation branch. I understand why the AAIB runs its business as it does, and why it is important that it is able to get information from witnesses in a way that will get to the truth of the matter as far as safety and technical issues are concerned, and that the integrity of the AAIB is protected in that way, but the police service in Scotland and the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service, which is ultimately responsible for making decisions on criminal proceedings or a fatal accident inquiry, do not start their work until the AAIB has completed and published its final report. The report on the 2013 accident at Sumburgh Head was not finally published until March 2016. It is getting on for three years since then.

In my correspondence with the Lord Advocate in Scotland, he tells me that the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service had to raise legal proceedings in order to get the data from the voice and flight data recorder from the AAIB. I understand the need to keep the integrity of the AAIB work intact, but we are dealing here with two public bodies, both broadly charged with the same responsibilities—public safety, investigation and prosecution of crime, and the investigation of deaths in the course of employment. Surely there is a better way than having one public body take another public body to court to get access to relevant evidence.

Hannah Bardell Portrait Hannah Bardell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is outrageous that families are left having to wait so long? I appreciate that there are many reasons for that, but the work of the AAIB must be done in conjunction and collaboration with other bodies, and it should not thwart any proceedings by the Crown. Families who have suffered deserve better.

Alistair Carmichael Portrait Mr Carmichael
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I agree with the hon. Lady up to a point. There will be occasions when it is absolutely crucial that the AAIB should proceed in the way that it is doing. It should not insist on proceeding in that way on every occasion, instead of exercising a measure of judgment and discretion about the information that can be shared at any stage with the police, the Procurator Fiscal Service and Crown counsel; that would indicate that we had two public bodies that were focusing solely on their work, rather than on the interests of the families.

The only people not given proper consideration in this process are the families. It is unacceptable that those families still do not know whether there are to be criminal proceedings or a fatal accident inquiry, five and a half years after the deaths of their loved ones. That does not allow them the closure that they absolutely deserve and need. That goes to the point made by the hon. Member for Stockton North about a public inquiry. When the sheriff has made his or her determination, there almost certainly will be a fatal accident inquiry, which will have the opportunity to make recommendations, and which might involve issues that would be appropriate for a public inquiry, but unless and until we get to the stage of having the FAI, we simply do not know that.

I hope that the Minister has heard what I have said about the work of the AAIB, and I hope that the Lord Advocate and those in the Crown Office in Edinburgh have heard. Even though they did not get to the starting line until March 2016, the fact that in February 2019 we still have no final determination from Crown counsel suggests to me that the Crown Office is also not beyond a measure of criticism. I know about fatal accident inquiries—I worked for three years in the Procurator Fiscal Service many years ago—and I know they are technical and difficult cases that require thorough preparation, but it is getting on for three years now; surely to goodness there is enough to bring a case to court, or at the very least for a decision about which course of action will be pursued.

We are at the point when all those charged with investigation and prosecution in the system need to take a long, hard look at what they do and how they do it. They should give more consideration to the families of those who have suffered in these tragedies.

None Portrait Several hon. Members rose—
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Lord Bellingham Portrait Sir Henry Bellingham (in the Chair)
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Three hon. Members are trying to catch my eye. I want to start the wind-ups at half-past, so Members have about five and a half minutes each; if they could observe that limit, I would be grateful.

15:12
Hannah Bardell Portrait Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP)
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At the outset of my comments, Sir Henry, I want to declare an interest. On the evening of Friday 23 August 2013, I was employed by Stork Technical Services and was part of the emergency response team that responded to the accident off the coast of Shetland. My colleague Gary McCrossan from Inverness was one of those who died in the accident, along with Duncan Munro from Bishop Auckland, Sarah Darnley from Elgin, and George Allison from Winchester. I have not spoken about this publicly since then, other than a few times briefly, but that evening is etched in my memory and I will never forget the events of the days after. The response by the emergency services and by the company I worked for was absolutely exemplary. When dealing with such an incident, it is important to reflect on the experience inside a company and what it can be like.

In the three years that I worked in the oil and gas sector before I came to this place, I had on many occasions been through emergency response drills. In the previous company I had worked for, Subsea 7, I had had the opportunity to work in one of the best emergency response facilities, so in many respects I was well prepared. I also spent three years in the constituency of the hon. Member for Gordon (Colin Clark), working for his predecessor. I had dealt with many distressed families in many difficult emergency situations, but I do not think anything prepared me for the experiences of that evening.

I pay tribute to the emergency response teams who responded that evening, and to Gordon Craig, who is still the chaplain for the offshore industry; he gave a huge amount of support to the families affected, and also to the staff who responded. Sadly, because of previous accidents in the North sea, there was a huge amount of experience and support from within the industry on the day following the accident. Today we are looking at whether there needs to be a public inquiry. I say to all the policy makers here and in Scotland that we need a balance, and to consider all aspects of what companies do for profit and how they treat their staff, as the hon. Member for Gordon highlighted.

I was getting into the bath that evening with a glass of wine. Before I had put the wine to my mouth, my phone rang. I got out of the bath, and I was asked to come to work. There were about 15 of us around the table. We were largely sitting and waiting for information and pulling together responses. We were taking calls from family members who had seen the news about a helicopter ditching, but did not know which platform their loved one was on. Because of the nature of social media and the speed at which news now moves, it became a process of elimination; we did not know the names of those who had been killed even when those who had survived were getting off the helicopter. I remember sitting with another colleague, with a picture of Gary, and trying to identify whether he was among those getting off the helicopter who had survived.

Eventually the call came from Total. It was the Borgsten Dolphin platform operated by CHC that the workers had been working on. The response and support was exceptional. Total did an excellent job of including colleagues from the company that I worked for, and made sure we had the relevant support and information. A decision was made that evening that I and a colleague from the human resources team would drive overnight to stay in the highlands and meet Gary’s family the next day. They were an incredible group of people. Although I do not have personal contact with them anymore, I want to pay tribute to the McCrossan family, and to the families of all those who have lost loved ones in not only this accident, but other accidents. The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) rightly pointed out that they are still waiting for answers. It is a matter of deep regret that they are five and a half years on and still no further forward in finding out what happened.

We now have an industry that is incredibly resilient and has done a huge amount of work to engage with the workforce, yet it still does not have confidence in Super Puma helicopters. We have to consider carefully how the engagement happens. In the days and months after that tragic accident, I worked with many staff who worked both onshore and offshore. I saw the challenges of teams trying to resource jobs offshore with big operators; there were significant pressures. Safety is absolutely everyone’s No. 1 priority. As the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland said, the further away we get from the Piper Alpha accident of 1988, the further away we get from remembering how devastating some of these accidents can be. Just as that was a turning point for health and safety offshore, so was the accident on 23 August in terms of helicopter safety.

When the Government consider this issue—I know that the Scottish National party Government in Scotland are also considering this issue—I hope that they consult families. What consultation has the Minister had with families and the workforce? There is no better way to understand an issue than to speak to those who work in companies and organisations. In the aftermath of that accident, there was a huge amount of regulation and many changes, from the size of escape routes to a reduced number of passengers. I spoke to some guys who worked offshore who told me about their experiences of flying. Perhaps they would be seated next to someone at a window who was a lot bigger than them. They would literally fear for their life; they had fears not only around mechanical failures, but around whether they would be able to escape from the helicopter.

We have to remember that helicopter is the only way to get to most offshore installations. At the time, many other options were looked at. Boats were considered, but fixed-wing planes are obviously not an option; helicopters were clearly the only one. It was not the way it is for the rest of us, who get on a plane, bus or train to come to London. Helicopters are literally the only way for offshore workers to get to their place of employment.

The Step Change in Safety helicopter safety leadership group, led by Les Linklater, continues to do an incredible power of work, and although in the past few years, since being elected, I have got further away from that work—and there is obviously limited interest in the oil and gas sector in Livingston—I have kept in touch with many of those I was involved with, who did such incredible work. That is why I take a particular interest in today’s debate and what happens next. I hope that the Minister will look carefully at the scope for a public inquiry, and at whether that is possible and would be the right thing. I take the point that there are strong views on both sides, and that my Scottish Government colleagues will also have engaged extensively with the workforce. However, the bottom line is that families have lost loved ones, and many still do not understand why. There is a list in the Library briefing of the many accidents.

Lord Bellingham Portrait Sir Henry Bellingham (in the Chair)
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Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Lady, but I am keen to call two more Back-Bench Members to speak, so if she could wrap up her remarks, I should be grateful.

Hannah Bardell Portrait Hannah Bardell
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Absolutely, Sir Henry. I hope that the Minister will consider my request, and engage with the families.

15:21
Hugh Gaffney Portrait Hugh Gaffney (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Henry. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) for securing this debate and bringing this important issue to the attention of the House.

I am speaking in the debate because not only is the issue important for the safety of offshore workers, but it has affected my family. My brother-in-law Peter Ross was killed in the Cormorant Alpha helicopter crash on 14 March 1992. Since then, this is a subject I have been watching. I am of the view that the flight—the pilot took the blame—should never have been attempted. The weather conditions were appalling and dangerous; yet the flight was attempted and 11 men including Peter lost their lives, and families were broken. My sister was left without her husband and my nieces lost their father. They were robbed of years together with a loving husband and father. Peter was 34, with so much of his life left ahead of him, but it was a life he was never able to experience. The tragedy continues to hurt my family to this day, and it hurts me every day. Whenever I look at the sea, I think of Peter and all those who have lost their lives in similar offshore helicopter tragedies, and I ask why they had to lose their lives and why more action is not being taken to ensure the safety of workers currently offshore.

I raised the issue of offshore helicopter safety recently as part of the inquiry by the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs into the oil and gas sector. I asked the Minister what action was being taken to improve safety, and the answer could not have been more disappointing. The written response stated that the Government work with the Civil Aviation Authority and the oil and gas sector to consider any issues regarding health and safety when they arise. That is not good enough. The Government are passing the buck on their responsibility to protect offshore workers and ensure they return home safely, despite the fact that 33 offshore workers and crew have lost their lives through Super Puma helicopter accidents in the North sea in the past decade alone. There have been many others, and some have been saved when mistakes have been learned from. Sixty-five workers and crew were rescued in the North sea in the period in question. I am glad for every one of them and their families, and the people they know and love.

Those events have been happening despite a continuing decline in the confidence that offshore workers have in the safety of offshore helicopter transport. An Airbus survey of more than 5,000 offshore staff in 2017 found that 62% of those who had flown in helicopters were unlikely to fly in a Super Puma again if given a choice. That figure itself tells a story, and it is in spite of the recommendation by the Transport Committee in 2014 that there should be an independent inquiry into commercial pressures on offshore helicopter operations. Commercial pressure on offshore workers has increased following the fall in the international oil price in 2014, and we need to establish whether there is now commercial pressure of that kind on offshore helicopter operations, and whether it could affect safety.

I join the RMT and Unite the union in calling for an independent public inquiry into offshore helicopter safety. Not only is such an inquiry vital to restore confidence among offshore workers; it is long overdue, given the record of accidents in the North sea. I commend Unite for its Back Home Safe campaign, which I have joined in at many conferences. The campaign has been running over the past few years to highlight the need to improve offshore helicopter safety. I call on the Government to engage with the RMT and Unite and the offshore workers they represent. It is about time that concerns about safety were listened to and acted on, with a full independent inquiry. Let us not wait until more lives and more families are destroyed.

Lord Bellingham Portrait Sir Henry Bellingham (in the Chair)
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I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for a moving speech.

15:25
Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
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It is a pleasure to speak in the debate and I congratulate the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) on obtaining it. I have an interest in it because some of my constituents work on the oil rigs. I had the privilege of travelling in a helicopter a number of times during my service in the Ulster Defence Regiment, and indeed in the Army, as well as on a couple of occasions in Afghanistan through the armed forces parliamentary scheme. It both thrilled me and frightened the life out of me—I was between the two extremes of enjoying it and hanging on like grim death, especially when the helicopter turned so I was looking down at a guy, and then it went the other way and he was looking at me.

It might be an alien experience for us; nevertheless, I speak as a fan of the war film genre, and we have all seen the films where the helicopters are the first to be hit—and once they are hit, they are down. I know that war films are not a credible source—nor are war statistics, as the safety of nothing is guaranteed during war—but something that is credible is the fact that since 1997 four fatal accidents have claimed the lives of 38 offshore workers and flight crew, and there have been 16 non-fatal accidents. I am grateful to hon. Members who have recounted personal experiences of losing family members or working in the sector.

Offshore helicopters in the UK are primarily operated within the offshore oil and gas industry on the UK continental shelf in the North sea. In 2018, there were 70 active aircraft, of six airframe types, in the UKCS helicopter fleet. I mentioned earlier that constituents of mine work on oil rigs. They tell me their experiences, including expressing concerns about travel. Some 820,158 passengers were flown offshore in 2017, which gives an idea of the magnitude of the operation. Some of them were my constituents. The hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) pointed out that many Members have constituents who work on the oil rigs. The flights I mentioned represent 69,005 flight hours, and I believe that when journeys are made at such a level, it demands attention. Given the fact that the offshore industry is already so heavily regulated for health and safety, it is shocking that the preferred method of transport is not more carefully monitored. Members have spoken about requests for more Government intervention and regulation.

Something to take into consideration is the fact that Airbus recently stated that it was looking to take advantage of new opportunities presented by the spread of offshore wind farms around the world. There is going to be expansion, and Airbus is saying it expects worldwide demand for up to 1,000 helicopters from the sector over the coming two decades. That equates to revenue of about £8 billion. So, the sector is going to grow and get busier—and the impact will be great.

Once a storm has begun, no amount of health and safety regulations can make a difference—only the voice of God can calm a storm, and helicopters and storms do not mix. Helicopters are not without their limitations. Conditions that hinder their operation include visibility that falls below 3 km, a cloud base of less than 600 feet, or wind above 60 knots, which perfectly describes conditions in the North sea. Flying a helicopter in extreme conditions is never easy, and it is time to do the right thing by the workforce, and act wherever possible to regulate and enhance safety during transportation to and from offshore operations.

As with many issues, there is a cameo from Brexit—has there ever been a debate that has not contained that word?—because we need to determine whether we will remain in the European Aviation Safety Agency post March, or whether to establish our own body or adopt a Norway or Switzerland position. Again, I look to the Minister for an answer to that. There is also a question that the Health and Safety Executive must answer. It has a major role to play, and I am unsure whether that question is receiving a satisfactory answer. We must push for movement in this area—again, I hope the Minister will give us some indication about that.

The industry has a key role to play. We must clarify what is expected from this debate and from the Minister, and every available piece of information should be used to determine safety on any individual flight. We in this House have a duty to ensure that those who bring the precious oil to land for this great nation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland are safe in their helicopters. I understand that helicopters are necessary, but we need to step up the safety measures, and I support the hon. Member for Stockton North, and all hon. Members who have spoken, in their call for that today.

15:31
Kirsty Blackman Portrait Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
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It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair in Westminster Hall, Sir Henry, and I commend the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) for securing this debate.

This is a difficult debate to have, and those hon. Members who have spoken about their families and about personal incidents have been incredibly brave. The numbers are staggering: 38 workers and flight crew have been killed since 1997. Their families and friends have lost somebody they loved—people have lost colleagues, friends and family members. The hon. Member for Gordon (Colin Clark) spoke about the importance to our constituencies of the oil and gas industry and those who fly in helicopters, and everybody in and around Aberdeen knows someone who has been affected by this issue. Our thoughts are with those who have been affected, particularly if this debate raises issues that perhaps they were trying not to think about at this moment in time.

In addition to fatal incidents, there have been 16 non-fatal incidents, and it is important to take those seriously as well and to consider what caused them. The difference between a fatal and a non-fatal incident can be small and involve just a slightly different thing happening, and it is important that any assessment considers what happened during an incident, why it happened in the first place, and why it did not lead to fatalities.

I was a city councillor in Aberdeen when the events of April 2009 unfolded. Social media was already a thing, although it was not quite as widely used as it is now, and we began to see events unfolding. I remember watching in absolute horror during those events, and again in 2013. Everybody was terrified that any future incident would be a repeat of what happened in 2009, and in 2013 we saw that those fears were well-founded.

Alistair Carmichael Portrait Mr Carmichael
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May I add one further reminiscence? I was pulled back to this by the hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Hugh Gaffney) because as a student I assisted the senior depute who conducted the fatal accident inquiry into the Cormorant Alpha crash. That happened in March 1992, and the fatal accident inquiry was held in April 1993. Does that not show how we have lost our way in relation to the investigation of these incidents?

Kirsty Blackman Portrait Kirsty Blackman
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I agree that there has been a significant change in the length of time required for an inquiry. In order to learn lessons from these incidents, we must ensure that investigations take place much more quickly than they currently do, so that any required changes or safety improvements are made as quickly as possible to ensure that our industry is as safe as it can be. We are asking people to do a difficult and dangerous job, and to get into helicopters to travel to work. The least we can do is to come out here batting for our constituents and ensure that we have the best safety record and best safety measures for the future. The SNP wants to maximise economic recovery from the North sea, but we will do that only if the workforce are on board, are supported and protected, and have the workers’ rights that enable them to go out and do their job.

I am aware that I do not have much time, so I will speed through a couple of points. The Scottish Government are reviewing whether to back calls for a full public inquiry into this issue, and the Cabinet Secretary for Transport, Infrastructure and Connectivity and the Minister for Energy, Connectivity and the Islands met union representatives and agreed to raise the issues that were discussed with the Civil Aviation Authority and the Oil and Gas Authority. Aviation safety, including offshore safety, is wholly reserved, but the Scottish Government are asking for a collaborative approach to be taken on safety measures and anything that relates to an inquiry.

For us, the most important thing is that the concerns of offshore workers are heard. I spoke to Airbus about what happened with the Super Puma, and at every opportunity I said that it needed to consult the workforce, because for anything that it wants to do in future with the Super Puma, or any other helicopter, the workforce need to be involved. Airbus needs to hear people’s concerns and not just talk at them, and I made that case in those meetings and will continue to do so.

To add to the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Hannah Bardell), it is vital that any reduction in spend by companies who have had a lower oil price in recent times compared with previous years does not reduce the frequency of safety inspections or safety indicated repairs, and does not put safety at risk. As the hon. Member for Gordon said, safety is embedded in the culture, but we must ensure that when belts are tightened, safety continues to be the No. 1 concern of those in charge of such matters. Whether that involves the Oil and Gas Authority, the CAA, the UK Government, or the oil and gas companies, safety must continue to be at the forefront to protect our workers.

15:37
Karl Turner Portrait Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
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It is always a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Sir Henry, and a privilege to serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) on securing this important debate, and I pay tribute to Members across the Chamber who have contributed with great knowledge and their own personal experiences.

Offshore helicopter transport, like maritime transport, is an area of transport with a low public profile but a huge economic impact. Unfortunately, the safety record in the North sea helicopter industry over the last decade includes 33 tragic deaths, alongside non-fatal setbacks that have caused significant damage to workers’ confidence in the mode of transport that they are obliged to use to work in that industry.

Following the tragic incident at Sumburgh in August 2013, the Civil Aviation Authority, along with the Norwegian air authority and EASA, carried out a comprehensive review into helicopter safety. The review set out 32 interventions including—to name a few—the establishment of the offshore helicopter safety action group, the prohibition of helicopter flights in the most severe sea conditions, and changes to the way pilots are trained and checked. That was followed up by progress reviews in 2015 and 2016. The review was carried out alongside EASA, as well as the Norwegian aviation authority. Is it still the Government’s aim to remain a member of EASA when we leave the EU? I have raised that issue with the Minister on a number of occasions, but he has yet to confirm the Government’s position. What impact will a no-deal Brexit have on our ability to carry out such reviews?

Even with the improvements to safety since 2013, the core issue of workforce confidence still needs to be tackled. Offshore workers’ perception of an industry governed by commercial pressure will not have been helped by the fact that thousands of jobs have been lost since 2014, pay has been cut or frozen, and longer shifts have been imposed. The Transport Committee highlighted this issue in its inquiry following the tragic incident at Sumburgh. Trade unions across the sector have campaigned on this, and I pay tribute to them for the work they have done on behalf of their members, particularly the RMT and Unite the Union. One of the Transport Committee’s recommendations was for an independent public inquiry to investigate commercial pressures on the operating environment of helicopter safety in the North sea, which has been supported by trade unions. I would be interested in the Minister’s thoughts on that.

Following the fatal incident in the Norwegian sector, where 13 passengers and crew lost their lives, the Opposition welcome the grounding of North sea Puma fleets, despite the regulator issuing airworthiness certificates. That is testimony to the work of trade unions on behalf of their offshore members. However, the Super Puma continues to work in other parts of the international offshore oil and gas industry—for example, in Brazil and parts of Asia. Does the Minister agree that the Super Pumas should not return to the North sea without the prior agreement of a majority of offshore workers? If, as expected, the Super Puma continues to be grounded, what model will replace it?

In September 2018, Airbus announced that it expected the offshore wind transport market to add £8 billion to its balance sheet over the next 20 years, which includes demand for up to 1,000 helicopters over the next two decades. They will carry out tasks such as crew transport to offshore wind farms. Given the expected growth in this area, it is important that workers have confidence in the Government, the Civil Aviation Authority and others who are responsible for safety. Will the Minister work with unions to help repair workers’ lack of confidence?

As my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North highlighted, it is quite frankly staggering that there is no mention of offshore helicopter transport in the Government’s aviation strategy. Will the Minister tell us why it is not in the strategy? Given the expected growth in this sector, does he agree that it would be a good idea to put in place a long-term strategy? I look forward to his reply.

Lord Bellingham Portrait Sir Henry Bellingham (in the Chair)
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I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his extremely knowledgeable and succinct winding-up speech. I now call the Minister, but bear in mind that the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) would like to have two minutes at the end to wind up.

15:43
Jesse Norman Portrait The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Jesse Norman)
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Thank you very much, Sir Henry, and it is a pleasure to serve under your distinguished and esteemed chairmanship. I congratulate the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) on securing this very important debate, and I thank everyone who has had a chance to make interventions or speeches. Not only have representatives of different parties brought a great deal of knowledge and expertise to the table, but we have heard very affecting personal stories from the hon. Members for Livingston (Hannah Bardell) and for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Hugh Gaffney). I know I speak for everyone when I say that we are enormously grateful to those who have shared their personal experience, and we are enormously sympathetic to the tragedies of the families with whom they have come into contact; I absolutely recognise that.

Hon. Members have rightly said that the oil and gas sector is enormously important to this country. It is important not only economically, but socially and culturally to distinct communities in the country, especially around Aberdeen and the UK continental shelf. Overall, the sector supports something like 280,000 jobs and meets around half of the country’s primary energy needs, but that statement does not cover the human aspects of its local and national impact. Offshore helicopter services provide a vital link—in fact, the only possible link—to ensure the viability of the oil and gas industry in what is widely understood to be one of the most challenging and operationally testing environments. As hon. Members have said, that is the context in which we should see the fatal accidents that have occurred in recent years.

As well as recognising the specific experiences of the Members present, I pay tribute to the families of the victims of those accidents and acknowledge their suffering. They include the 16 workers and crew members who lost their lives north-east of Peterhead in 2009, the four oil workers killed off the coast of Sumburgh in 2013 and, most recently, the 11 passengers and two crew members killed in Norway, one of whom was a British citizen.

As hon. Members have noted, the state safety programme for aviation in this country defines the acceptable level of safety for commercial aviation as one that results in zero fatalities—not a small number or a few, but zero. There will always be risks and hazards associated with operating in the North sea, but we are clear—just as previous Governments were—that the safety of those who rely on offshore helicopters is paramount. As noted by my hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Colin Clark) and by the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael), that is widely recognised as being culturally central to the industry.

The UK is recognised as a world leader in aviation safety, but we cannot be complacent. I absolutely share the view of the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland: it was the Piper Alpha disaster that engineered this change. We must face the appalling fact that an accident could occur tomorrow in the North sea, whether through pilot error or equipment failure in helicopters or other forms of transportation. We must be responsible and aware of that fact. I think it raises the bar and reminds us of the consistent pressure to maintain safety at the highest possible level. With that goes the suggestion that regulators and Government must learn lessons from tragic incidents, whether they are caused by equipment failure or pilot error, to ensure that they do not happen again. I am a private pilot, and we know that pilot error is largely responsible for fatalities and injuries in this sector. We owe it to those who now use the service as well as to those who have lost their lives.

The CAA has rightly been discussed in this debate, and it is important to recognise the work that has already been done in this area. In 2014 the CAA published a review of the safety of offshore helicopter operations. It is important to note that that is a comprehensive piece of work—it is nearly 300 pages long and contains almost three dozen recommendations. It considered all aspects of offshore helicopter operations, including the design and certification of helicopters, continuing airworthiness, operational procedures, organisational matters, pilot training, passenger safety, and survivability and resilience in the event of an accident. It was conducted in conjunction with the Norwegian Civil Aviation Authority and the European Aviation Safety Agency.

The review put forward 32 actions and 29 recommendations to helicopter operators in the oil and gas industry. It resulted in the introduction of a number of significant measures to increase safety standards for offshore helicopter flights, including flight restrictions during certain—especially adverse—sea conditions, improved emergency exit access, better emergency breathing equipment and changes to pilot training. Every aspect, including helipads and the like, was reviewed. During the review, the CAA engaged closely with pilot and offshore workforce unions, the oil and gas industry, helicopter operators, manufacturers, Government and regulatory bodies, and other experts in the field. It is right that it engaged with the appointed representatives of workers and—if my hon. Friend the Member for Gordon is right, and I am sure he is—the larger number of workers who were not members of unions but nevertheless wished their interests to be heard, understood and reflected upon. An independent challenge team, chaired by Rear Admiral Simon Charlier and assisted by experts including representatives from Transport Scotland and the British Helicopter Association, scrutinised the review and its recommendations, often robustly, and endorsed the 300-page report. That level of independent challenge was designed to ensure confidence that the process was robust, comprehensive and thorough.

I remind hon. Members that the CAA is a blue-riband regulator, and it is rightly admired across the world for its quality in all aspects of aircraft, airframe and air management certification and review. One of the outcomes of its review was the formation of the offshore helicopter safety action group, which brought together helicopter operators, offshore industries, regulators, unions and pilot representatives to enhance standards still further.

Alex Cunningham Portrait Alex Cunningham
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Will the Minister give way?

Jesse Norman Portrait Jesse Norman
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I have got an awful lot to get through, but I would be delighted to give way.

Alex Cunningham Portrait Alex Cunningham
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That body meets extremely infrequently, and often at short notice. Somebody needs to give it a good kicking to encourage it to do more. Does the Minister agree?

Jesse Norman Portrait Jesse Norman
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I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that issue. I cannot speak about the frequency of the group’s meetings, but anyone who is scrutinising this debate with the proper level of attention, as I am sure the group will be doing, will take his remarks alone as a good kick in the pants. If those meetings have been insufficiently frequent, I encourage the group to have more; I support what he has said.

Let me say a few more things, and then I will come to hon. Members’ interventions. A number of hon. Members referred to the Super Puma helicopter, and I absolutely recognise the concerns of workers who have seen colleagues perish in that aircraft. It is important to recall that after the Norwegian accident, both EASA and the CAA placed operating restrictions on the Super Puma. When EASA cleared the helicopters to serve in October 2016, the UK and Norwegian CAAs maintained their operating restrictions to make certain the aircraft were safe to fly. They did not operate in a herd-like way. They played off each other, scrutinised each other and interrogated each other, and they did not reach the same conclusion. In doing so, they worked with, among others, representatives from Unite, the RMT and the British Airline Pilots Association. They lifted operating restrictions in July 2017 only after significant modifications were made to the aircraft and training was undertaken.

The regulators clearly did not take that decision lightly; they did so only after they were confident that the aircraft could meet stringent standards and were fit to fly. Of course, the CAA continues to work with a range of stakeholders, including unions, to provide the assurances that are publicly needed. The regulators are content, subject to the additional checks that I have described, for the aircraft to re-enter service, but the decision rests with operators and their customers. To date, none has come forward.

I absolutely respect the initiative and the viewpoint of the hon. Member for Stockton North, who seeks a public inquiry. He has made similar representations to the aviation Minister. We take these matters extremely seriously and we have given the question careful consideration, but we are not yet persuaded that that is the right thing to do. The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland was very wise in pointing to the potential conflicts of jurisdiction that already exist, and he said that he was concerned about the delays and lack of closure for the families.

Alistair Carmichael Portrait Mr Carmichael
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On that point, may I bring the Minister to the interaction between the air accidents investigation branch and the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service? Surely, without compromising the integrity of either, it would be possible to have a better information-sharing regime that would minimise delays for the families. Would the Minister take that away and look at it?

Jesse Norman Portrait Jesse Norman
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That is a very interesting idea. I feel slightly as though I should withhold my own judgment, because I am not the aviation lead; Baroness Sugg is. I will absolutely take that issue up with her, because I recognise the concerns that the right hon. Gentleman describes.

It is clear that more needs to be done to provide reassurance about the safety of the helicopter fleet. As has been mentioned, after every accident the air accidents investigation branch conducts an independent and transparent investigation and publishes a very detailed report with a set of safety recommendations to the industry and the regulators.

Let me turn to some of the points that have been made, many of which are very important. My hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Scott Mann) rightly reminded us that pilot error is the leading cause of death and injury in civil and commercial aviation. I echo the emphasis of my hon. Friend the Member for Gordon on embedding a safety culture.

To come back to a point made by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) , it is not quite right that commercial activity is antithetical to safety. I have lived and worked in communist countries, and I can tell him that the safety records in those places, which were notionally devoted to the wellbeing of workers, was absolutely lamentable. There can be commercial pressures in any safety-oriented situation, and they must be offset by a rigorous internal culture. That is why the emphasis that we and the oil and gas industry place on that is of such importance.

A point was made about the role of the CAA. The CAA not only goes beyond the EASA recommendations, but is itself audited by EASA. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East asked whether the Government wish to stay in EASA following Brexit. As I have repeatedly assured him—of course, this is a matter still for discussion—EASA is in many ways an offshoot of the CAA, and we would like nothing better than to have a comprehensive agreement that includes an appropriate relationship with EASA, whatever the legalities are, because we recognise what it does.

The hon. Gentleman asked whether offshore voters should have a majority vote on the introduction of new helicopter airframes. I cannot comment on the practicality of that. I would say, however, that offshore workers have, in effect, already spoken: they have made it clear that they do not have confidence at the moment. I think that is right.

I have very little time, and I want to allow the hon. Member for Stockton North a chance to give a final response. I thank him for securing this important debate, and I thank everyone who has made contributions—especially those who have brought their personal experiences to the table. The entire framework of the British Government recognises that those who rely on offshore helicopter operations must have their safety preserved. That is of the utmost importance. We also believe that all parties must continue to take whatever steps they can to minimise the risks in those operations and ensure confidence among those who travel in these aircraft.

15:57
Alex Cunningham Portrait Alex Cunningham
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I am grateful to the Minister for his response, and I thank everybody else who has taken part in the debate.

I know people think that I put a lot of emphasis on what the trade unions say, and I will certainly continue to do so, but I am told that there is less engagement on safety these days. The role of safety officers—particularly offshore—has been diminished. I therefore welcome the support of the Minister, who has said that he will put the boot in at an appropriate place and try to encourage greater engagement through the offshore helicopter safety leadership group.

I was touched by what the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) said about the fact that the families have not had closure. The fact that this is ongoing contributes to workers’ lack of confidence. They want closure as much as the families do so they can understand what happened and get their heads around it.

I am grateful for the personal stories. My hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Hugh Gaffney) talked about his family involvement, and that emphasises that we are talking about people’s lives. The hon. Member for Livingston (Hannah Bardell) talked about her experience of serving on crisis teams, when people were dying in terrible accidents. I understand her role, and I commend anybody and everybody who is involved in that sort of work when such tragedies happen.

I am grateful for the supportive comments—on behalf of the Scottish Government, perhaps—about a public inquiry. Perhaps a fatal accident inquiry is the way forward. We still need answers about the future of helicopter safety and helicopter travel as new models come into the new industries, such as the wind turbine industry, as well as the old. I appeal to everybody to continue their work to ensure that safety is paramount and that workers get the answers they need.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered offshore helicopter safety.

Defence Spending in Scotland

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Westminster Hall
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[Joan Ryan in the Chair]
14:00
Chris Stephens Portrait Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP)
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I beg to move,

That this House has considered defence spending in Scotland.

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Ms Ryan. As the Minister reminded us before we started, I think that the last time I secured a Westminster Hall debate, the House had adjourned early, and it has done so again now that I have secured another.

The title of the debate is “Defence spending in Scotland”, but it could be “Defence spending in Glasgow South West”, and I will make no apologies for that.

Douglas Ross Portrait Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con)
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Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Chris Stephens Portrait Chris Stephens
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I will give way to the hon. Gentleman in a second. As I am sure the Minister with responsibility for defence procurement knows, I remain a strong advocate for the Clyde shipyards—the greatest shipbuilders in the world. It has been a pleasure to see that they have started building the HMS Glasgow—the first of three Type 26 frigates—and to see the fantastic design work being carried out on the Clyde. I hope that the Minister will be able to confirm that, although there are three ships currently in the contract, the eight that were promised by the UK Government will be built on the Clyde. As the hon. Member for Moray (Douglas Ross) is so anxious to intervene, I will give way.

Douglas Ross Portrait Douglas Ross
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I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Although the title of the debate is “Defence spending in Scotland”, I think it is going to become “Defence spending in Glasgow South West” within 30 seconds. Could I therefore take this opportunity to ask him whether he agrees that there is considerable defence spending in Scotland, particularly in my constituency, with the imminent arrival of the P-8s and £400 million of investment from the UK Government and Boeing into RAF Lossiemouth? That is important to my area and to the whole of Scotland.

Chris Stephens Portrait Chris Stephens
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I support that investment in RAF Lossiemouth. It was argued for by the hon. Gentleman’s predecessor, as I am sure he would agree, and I think we both agree that we want defence spending in Scotland. Later on in the debate, we may come to the actual figures, which I look forward to discussing and debating with him.

I cannot allow the debate to go by without referring to the letter that the procurement Minister received yesterday from the Chair of the House of Commons Defence Committee, regarding the fleet solid support ships. Many Members across the House are concerned about the Government having advised them that those are not warships. In the light of the parliamentary answers that many of us—myself included—have received about the combatants and the weaponry on those ships, I really do not understand the argument that they are not warships. I take the view that if it looks like a warship and acts like a warship, it is fair to call it a warship.

I commend to Members a blog from the Save the Royal Navy website, which makes clear its support for the letter from Chair of the Defence Committee to the Minister, who may wish to remark on that. My view, which is well known, as I am sure he will agree, is that the fleet solid support ships should be built in the UK. There are enough shipyards across the UK, including in Scotland, that could block-build those ships. If the Aircraft Carrier Alliance can block-build, the fleet solid support ships should be block-built using the same model.

I have many family ties to the defence industry. One of the employers that I will mention today is Thales, which used to trade as Barr and Stroud. Today is the anniversary of my grandfather’s death; he was employed by Barr and Stroud, where he met my grandmother, and they were married for 61 and a half years, so there are clear family ties to that employer. It was based in Anniesland in the city, but has moved to Govan, the former site of the Stephen shipyard—that is a different spelling and no relation—which is famous because Billy Connolly is a former employee. I have family ties and a real connection to the defence industry in Glasgow.

It is important, as the hon. Member for Moray outlined, that Government spending helps to support and promote prosperity across these islands. Ministry of Defence spending has the potential both to have a positive impact on Scotland’s economy and employment, and to help to balance the export deficit. I want to see the Government give a vote of confidence to manufacturing and engineering skills in Scotland by investing the defence pound in Scotland, and by encouraging foreign companies that are looking to maximise UK content to do the same.

At present, the lion’s share of MOD industry spending on Scottish industry goes, quite rightly, to shipbuilding and repairs. As one of the vice-chairs of the all-party parliamentary group on shipbuilding and ship repair, I have no particular problem with that, although I hope that in future, the Ministry of Defence will look at how it can help the shipyards become more efficient. When BBC journalists looked for a frigate factory that a former Secretary of State for Defence insisted was on the Clyde, they found only rubble and ash.

While the shipbuilding industry must be supported—far be it from me to argue against that—I want to look at defence spending elsewhere. As the Minister knows, the Ministry of Defence is currently procuring key new land platforms, including the multi-role vehicle protected—MRVP—and the mechanised infantry vehicle, the MIV. That will be a significant spend, and the platforms will be vital to delivering the Army’s strike brigades, which are part of the backbone of its new structure.

The latest available figures on Ministry of Defence spending in Scotland show that in 2017-18, MOD expenditure in Scotland was £300 per capita. Scotland has had an increase in expenditure within UK industry, but of all the nations and regions of the UK, Scotland finds itself with the fourth-highest spend. As someone who watches Scottish football—the hon. Member for Moray will appreciate these comments—I know that a team who finish fourth are not currently guaranteed a UEFA place. I hope that the Minister will reflect on that figure.

In fact, spending in Scotland was less than half of the spending in the south-east and south-west of England—two regions that account for over half of MOD expenditure within UK industry. Approximately 10,000 jobs in Scotland were supported through MOD expenditure in 2017-18. A recent parliamentary question revealed that of the £1.59 billion that the MOD spent within Scottish industry, over £900 million was spent on shipbuilding and repair. It is important that no area becomes too reliant on a single industry.

Kirstene Hair Portrait Kirstene Hair (Angus) (Con)
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Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Chris Stephens Portrait Chris Stephens
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Before I mention Thales in my constituency, I will give way to the hon. Lady.

Kirstene Hair Portrait Kirstene Hair
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I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He is talking about spending in Scotland. As he will be well aware, the MOD recently confirmed its commitment to RM Condor in my constituency. Can he confirm to my constituents and to me that in an independent Scotland, the Royal Marines at RM Condor would be 100% safe, and that the Scottish National party would spend exactly the same amount that the UK Government have committed to the base’s long-term future?

Chris Stephens Portrait Chris Stephens
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I am more than happy to support the hon. Lady’s constituents and the Royal Marines in Angus and elsewhere. As she knows, her predecessor in Angus, Mike Weir, was supportive, too.

Thales has more than 700 employees in Scotland, the vast majority of whom are at our site in Govan, in Glasgow. Thales’s Glasgow links date back to 1888, which makes the Glasgow part of the company the oldest part in the United Kingdom. As the procurement Minister knows, an early-day motion recently celebrated the centenary of Thales providing optronic systems to submarines—indeed, optronic systems for land, sea and air—and I went to an event to celebrate that centenary. The work carried out by that employer in Glasgow is important. Thales is a major contributor to the Scottish economy, investing more than £850 million since 2000, and supporting a strong and diverse supply chain. Preliminary findings from a report by Oxford Economics found that Thales UK activity supports an additional 2,000 jobs in Scotland, and its total gross domestic product contribution in Scotland is more than £100 million.

On land platforms, the team at Thales in Glasgow established an armoured vehicle centre of excellence, with a view to nurturing the company’s rich engineering heritage and commitment to developing its capabilities well into the future. The centre builds on highly skilled engineers’ and manufacturing employees’ decades of experience in complex military vehicle integration. Thales Glasgow has the capacity and capabilities to support Scotland’s growth in the defence sector outside its traditional maritime contribution.

Combined, the two vehicles that have been contracted for so far could create and sustain 100 jobs in Thales UK, 180 jobs through the supply chain and up to 200 jobs indirectly throughout the UK. Thales’ offering to the MOD’s MRVP programme is the Bushmaster MR6—a military off-the-shelf product with reduced development costs that offers value for money and lower through-life costs. The fact that there are production lines in Australia for vehicle assembly, and in Glasgow for equipment and system integration, reinforce Thales’s ability to achieve cost and risk reduction. The Bushmaster would support 50 highly skilled engineering, design and manufacturing jobs in Glasgow, and there is the potential to create an additional 30 jobs over the lifetime of the programme. It could also support up to 100 jobs in the supply chain across the UK, as I say.

In the context of Brexit, the Government, we hope, are looking to strengthen trade ties with countries outside the EU. I would argue that Thales does that, particularly through its work in Australia. The MRVP programme offers the chance to help combat the trade imbalance with Australia, and supports the development of closer trade and defence equipment ties with that important ally.

On the MIV programme, Thales has supported the prime contractor over the past two years. It has all the expertise and resources to support the Boxer. Thales brings with it its recognised UK mission system integration, survivability and electronic architecture pedigree, developed over many years as a trusted partner of the Ministry of Defence.

I hope that the Minister is sympathetic to my representations on behalf of my local employer, Thales. I look forward to hearing what he has to say.

16:09
Stuart Andrew Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Stuart Andrew)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ryan. I congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Chris Stephens) on securing the debate. I do not know whether something about him means that the whole Chamber leaves when he has his debates—perhaps they should all have stayed to listen to his contribution—but I am glad that he is rightly standing up for his constituents and his constituency. I will come on to some of the specific points he made in more detail in a moment, but I will first provide some context for defence spending in Scotland.

Last year’s report on the contribution of defence to UK prosperity, which was produced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr Dunne), showed that defence benefits every single part of the United Kingdom. The sector has annual turnover of £22 billion and supports some 260,000 jobs. Scotland very much shares in that national success, benefiting directly from every pound that is spent on defence. To illustrate the point, it is worth looking at two of the key areas where defence spending in Scotland is concentrated. The first element relates to our spending with industry in Scotland. Last year, as the hon. Member for Glasgow South West said, that spending amounted to £1.65 billion, supporting 10,000 jobs. That is equivalent to £300 per capita, which is above the UK average. I know that he was complaining about some other regions, but I represent Yorkshire, and Scotland is doing a heck of a lot better than Yorkshire on defence spending.

We cannot talk about the defence industry in Scotland without recognising, as the hon. Gentleman did, the incredible expertise of the Scottish shipbuilding sector. With a history dating back more than 150 years, it has long been the envy of the world, and it remains a global leader. In the past few years, Scotland has played a major part in the building, assembly and successful delivery of HMS Queen Elizabeth, the most powerful surface vessel in British history, as we all know.

The MOD has already placed a £3.7 billion contract to build the first three state-of-the-art Type 26 global combat ships on the Clyde, in the place—I can now confirm—where all eight will eventually be built. The first of those City-class frigates has been named HMS Glasgow, which I am sure the hon. Gentleman is delighted about, and the last will be HMS Edinburgh, again recognising Scotland’s contribution. Coupled with our order for five offshore patrol vessels, that work will sustain some 4,000 jobs in the Scottish shipyards and throughout the supply chain until the 2030s.

Chris Stephens Portrait Chris Stephens
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the Minister for confirming that all eight of the Type 26 ships will be built in Glasgow. He might get representations from his colleagues in Scotland to name the other ships after different areas of Scotland, but I will leave that to them. Will the Minister kindly update us on the Type 31 frigates? He knows that there is interest in those being built in Glasgow and other places in Scotland.

Stuart Andrew Portrait Stuart Andrew
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I was going to come to that, but I will touch on it now. The Type 31e is subject to an open competition at the moment, as the hon. Gentleman knows, so I cannot go into too many details, other than to say that we have three bidders in the competition, which is an exciting and challenging one as we try to change how we procure our frigates. I look forward to seeing the competition progress.

As I was saying, the fact that we have been able to secure those jobs in the Scottish shipyards, with work into the 2030s, is something that no other industry in the United Kingdom can boast or be assured of, so it is not surprising that many MOD prime contractors have sites in Scotland, including Babcock, BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce, Leonardo, Thales, Raytheon and QinetiQ. That goes to prove that the defence industry in Scotland is about more than just shipbuilding, as the hon. Gentleman rightly pointed out.

In the land sector, beneath the prime contract level, many companies across Scotland have provided high-technology sub-systems to the Army’s critical warfighting platforms, which include Challenger 2 main battle tanks, Warrior infantry fighting vehicles, Foxhound patrol vehicles and the new Ajax reconnaissance fleet. Such on-board technology ranges from world-beating, 24-hour, all-weather sensors and sighting systems to the integrational design of complex battlefield communication equipment.

Looking forward, the land sector also holds much near-term potential for the Army’s exciting fighting vehicle modernisation programmes. Scottish companies are already bidding competitively in the Challenger 2 life extension programme, the mechanised infantry vehicle programme and the multi-role vehicle protected programme package 2—that’s a bit of a mouthful! For example, as the hon. Member for Glasgow South West said, Thales—a company that I have visited on many occasions, even in the short time that I have been in my role—has a site in his constituency and is one of two finalists, bidding with its Bushmaster vehicle. Thales is also tendering for a range of smaller electro-optical sub-system upgrades for the existing armoured fleet to contribute to the British Army’s warfighting edge. I repeat, however, that the competition is open, so I cannot comment other than to say that I have heard him.

We should also not forget that small and medium-sized enterprises throughout the supply chain in Scotland benefit from our investment. I have really enjoyed seeing the innovation there is among SMEs not just in Scotland but right across the country. Innovative smaller companies such as Denchi Power in the town of Thurso in Caithness provide much of the essential very high capacity advanced battery and charging technology for the British Army’s combat radio systems. In the past financial year, our Defence Science and Technology Laboratory alone invested £4.84 million in research and development contracts with Scottish suppliers.

The second main element of our defence spending consists of investments in critical defence assets, stretching far beyond our submarine and RAF bases. Few are aware that Scotland has some 50 defence sites, including Benbecula in the Outer Hebrides, Buchan in Aberdeenshire and Saxa Vord in Shetland. Those are the locations of our military radars, which provide critical long-range coverage of the northern approaches to the UK and neighbouring NATO nations. As the threats from the likes of Russia rise, so too does the significance of those sites.

The hon. Member for Glasgow South West mentioned fleet solid support ships, an issue I have had to deal with on many occasions in this role. Those ships’ primary role is to replenish naval vessels with bulk stores. They are non-combative naval auxiliary support ships, which are manned by civilian Royal Fleet Auxiliary crews and fitted with weapons systems purely for self-defence, so they cannot be designated as warships. I will probably continue to have long correspondence about that with the members of the Defence Committee, and I look forward to replying to their letter.

The relationship between defence and Scotland is mutually beneficial. Scotland is as integral to the United Kingdom’s security as the rest of the United Kingdom is to Scotland’s. Yes, the UK depends on the deep commitment of our Scottish personnel and benefits enormously from the unparalleled expertise of the industries based there, but Scotland also benefits from being part of the United Kingdom as a whole. It benefits from the UK’s broad spectrum of capabilities, it benefits from the sheer scale of defence spending by the UK, which can call on the fifth biggest defence budget in the world, and it benefits from the influence the UK is able to wield on the world stage to make a genuine difference.

Douglas Ross Portrait Douglas Ross
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the Minister confirm that another benefit of Scotland being part of the United Kingdom is that, when the SNP made Scotland the highest taxed part of the United Kingdom, the UK Government and his Department were able to mitigate that Nat tax for our armed forces personnel?

Stuart Andrew Portrait Stuart Andrew
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend makes a very important point, which my hon. Friend the Member for Angus (Kirstene Hair), who is sitting next to him, raised at Scottish questions just a few weeks ago. Of course, we will have to analyse the latest situation. If we need to make that mitigation, we will do so. The fact is that armed forces are sent where they are needed—they do not choose where they live—so we will step in where necessary to ensure that they are not disadvantaged.

As the dangers to the United Kingdom increase, it is even more vital that Scotland remains a pivotal part of UK defence. That is why we are upping our defence spending there. When it comes to the military footprint in Scotland, force levels will continue to grow. A further 550 military personnel and their families will be based in Moray by 2024. Significantly, numbers on Her Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde will also increase, to 8,200, while the base benefits from further investment of £1.2 billion over the next decade. HMNB Clyde will also become the base port for all the Royal Navy’s submarines, including its fleet of attack submarines, and the UK’s submarine centre of excellence. That is only fitting, since by the 2030s it will welcome four next-generation Dreadnought-class nuclear deterrent submarines too.

Meanwhile, this year, RAF Lossiemouth, which is in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Moray (Douglas Ross), will welcome its fourth Typhoon squadron, making Scotland home to half of the RAF’s Typhoon force. Thanks to its close proximity to the north Atlantic, where enemy submarines are most likely to operate, Lossiemouth will also be a base for our nine P-8A maritime patrol aircraft, with a £132 million operational support and training facility being built to support them. That will create a further 200 jobs and, once fully operational, bring some 550 additional RAF personnel on site. I know my hon. Friend has been a good advocate of that.

Since becoming Minister for Defence Procurement, I have been pleased to observe the truly unique relationship with Scotland at first hand, and I am determined to do everything in my power to ensure that it continues to go from strength to strength.

Stuart Andrew Portrait Stuart Andrew
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am coming to my last paragraph, but I can see that the hon. Gentleman wants to intervene, so I will give way.

Chris Stephens Portrait Chris Stephens
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Minister for a lot of what he has said, but I thought he would expand a bit more on the fleet solid support ships. Given the comments he rightly made about Scotland’s contribution to the Ministry of Defence, can he justify the fact that those ships might be built somewhere else in the world, rather than in Scotland or, indeed, anywhere else in the UK?

Stuart Andrew Portrait Stuart Andrew
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I will happily answer that question. The whole point of the national shipbuilding strategy is to make our shipyards as competitive as possible. For far too long, our shipyards have depended too often on defence for their work. The whole point of the strategy is to try to make them as competitive as possible and to challenge them. The Type 31e frigate competition that the hon. Gentleman mentioned is one such challenge to industry to consider how it can become more competitive, so it can go out to the wider world and start winning competitions. That is why I am really pleased that there is a bid from the UK as part of the fleet solid support competition. We will see whether it is successful, but the point is that we want our shipyards to be competitive. That is the way to secure their future now and in the long term.

Next year, Scotland will be home to all the Royal Navy’s submarines at HMNB Clyde, to one of the British Army’s seven adaptable force brigades and to one of three RAF fast jet main operating bases. That is a mighty testament to a relationship that works—a relationship that makes Britain a global force for good. That is why I believe passionately that Scotland should remain an integral part of this United Kingdom, so we can all work for the good defence of our country and around the globe.

Question put and agreed to.

Pensions Dashboard

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Westminster Hall
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16:28
Matthew Offord Portrait Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
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I beg to move,

That this House has considered the pensions dashboard.

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ryan. For many people—particularly younger people—pensions are not a priority. In the early years of anyone’s career, their financial demands usually concern paying off student debt and paying for accommodation, mortgages and travel, no doubt with a bit of socialising thrown in. Only when people gain responsibilities such as a partner, a spouse, a mortgage or children do their minds turn to providing for the future.

Some people are fortunate enough to be provided with a pension through the terms of their employment. That is particularly true for those who work in the public services. Unfortunately, in the past, those who worked for private employers and the self-employed were unable to access the same financial products. There were a variety of reasons for that, including affordability, knowledge of pension products and simple ignorance about how to start a pension. I am pleased that the Government have addressed those problems and that in order to allow employees—our constituents—to understand the level of their pension contributions, the Department for Work and Pensions has proposed the pensions dashboard, which we are speaking about today.

A pensions dashboard is an online service that allows people to see information from multiple pensions all in one place. It is a welcome step towards better financial awareness for everyone.

Julian Knight Portrait Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con)
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I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. The fact that it is so well attended shows exactly how important the subject is to our constituents. My hon. Friend will probably recognise that when the pensions dashboard was first suggested, it was seen as something that might not happen, but now we are on the cusp of it. Does he agree with me that it would be good to see such data sharing across the whole financial services industry? It benefits consumers and gives them power over their own information.

Matthew Offord Portrait Dr Offord
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My hon. Friend is entirely right. I certainly would like to see that across a range of financial instruments. Recently, I was required to find the level of my ISA trust fund. In the past I would receive a statement only every six months, but nowadays I can go online and use my PIN to verify my identity and see my daily amount. I can see the value of my trust fund here today. When I say trust fund, I mean the one I have paid into over the years, rather than one that was provided by my parents.

Jim Cunningham Portrait Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
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I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. Like me, he has probably had a large number of constituents write to him wanting the dashboard to be as simple and clear as possible, and to contain as much information as it can. Would he agree that the Minister should look at that, so we get a sensible system that people actually understand?

Matthew Offord Portrait Dr Offord
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I believe that proposal is a good one, but whether it is looked at by the Minister or the steering group—I will come on to that—is another matter. As the debate unfolds, perhaps some of those questions will be answered. I always say that the dashboard should be made as simple as possible, so that people can engage with their pensions and their future, which is a good thing.

Nick Thomas-Symonds Portrait Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)
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I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, and I congratulate him on securing the debate. I entirely agree that it is a very good idea to have all this information in one place, but does he agree that there must be appropriate regulatory compliance concerning the way the data is held?

Matthew Offord Portrait Dr Offord
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I do agree, and the hon. Gentleman has anticipated some of my speech. That is a good point, and I will come on to it in proper detail.

John Howell Portrait John Howell (Henley) (Con)
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Is it not true that we need to get the governance of the pensions dashboard correct? We have just seen that a hotel booking website has had to end its misleading sales activities. Is there a risk that without the right level of governance, something similar could happen to the dashboard?

Matthew Offord Portrait Dr Offord
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Once again, my hon. Friend has anticipated my speech. He is absolutely right; we need to get this right and ensure that people have confidence in the system, so that our constituents are not only keen to invest their money but reassured, after recent financial problems, that their concerns will be addressed. We will do that as part of the process.

Janet Daby Portrait Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab)
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I thank the hon. Gentleman for securing such a significant debate. Does he agree that the Government must lead the implementation of the pensions dashboard, if they are to compel all pension providers to take part and if the dashboard is to be a truly useful tool for many retired people aged 55 and over who do not know the size of their savings?

Matthew Offord Portrait Dr Offord
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I hope that the dashboard provides for those people. I was about to come to a statistic that indicates that many people do not know the size of their pension pot. That has repercussions, particularly when people retire and they suddenly realise that they will not have the level of income or the kind of lifestyle that they had expected or previously experienced. Some 25% of people over the age of 55, including those who are retired, say that they do not know the size of their pension pot. The dashboard will address that. It will offer those people and others the ability to access information about their financial contributions from multiple pensions, any time they want to, on their smartphone, iPad or computer. Effectively, it will bring our pensions into the 21st century.

Stephen Lloyd Portrait Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (Ind)
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I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way and for securing this important debate. I have been supporting and pressing for the pensions dashboard for many years, since the time of the coalition. Does he agree that it is crucial that in the next pensions Act, the Government make it a legal requirement for all pension providers to go into the pensions dashboard and provide all the necessary information, otherwise the dashboard will fail? Does the Minister—or, rather, the hon. Gentleman—agree that at this late stage, that is critical?

Matthew Offord Portrait Dr Offord
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That is a very important point. Unfortunately, I am not a Minister, but the debate provides the opportunity to put that question to the Minister. Perhaps the Minister in summing up will provide the reassurances that the hon. Gentleman seeks.

Once again, the hon. Gentleman seems to have pre-empted my speech, because I was about to name him and thank him for coming along. I was going to say that it is very pleasing that the proposal has cross-party support, and that I welcome his support and attendance, along with that of my hon. Friends the Members for North Warwickshire (Craig Tracey), for Solihull (Julian Knight) and for Henley (John Howell).

Jim Cunningham Portrait Mr Jim Cunningham
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What about me? [Laughter.]

Matthew Offord Portrait Dr Offord
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Of course, if I had had any forward notice I would have thanked the hon. Gentleman as well. I am particularly pleased to see the SNP here, because the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) signalled his approval for the social security statutory instruments we debated on Monday, so I thank him and the SNP for that.

From the comments I have heard from the Opposition today, I understand that the proposal that we are debating is not only welcome, but something that all parties are agreed on. With that support, the Government have already engaged in a consultation about how the pensions industry can create the dashboards. In the absence of a clear industry lead, it is proposed by my hon. Friend the Minister that a new single financial guidance body should be convened to oversee an industry delivery group to enable successful implementation.

As I see it, there are two issues that some hon. Members or people outside the Chamber may be concerned about. The first is whether the pensions dashboard should be held in public or private ownership. Like some other hon. Members, I have a Merseyside pension scheme from my time of employment in local government, and as a result I would prefer the dashboard to be in private ownership. Merseyside is notoriously difficult to engage with and refuses to discuss its scheme with organisations or the financial advisers that I have had over the years. However, I acknowledge support for the provision of a non-commercial dashboard supported by the Government; some hon. Members may also agree with that.

The Department for Work and Pensions research has built on the recommendation of the pensions dashboard project that a non-commercial service, endorsed by the Government, must be made available. As key stakeholders have commented, multiple dashboards in the private sector would complement a Government-sponsored offer, which should still be available for those who would prefer it, or who may not be targeted by the market.

It was suggested by the pensions dashboard project group—and, earlier last year, by the Work and Pensions Committee—that the single financial guidance body, which launched services to the public last month, would be a sensible place to host such a dashboard. The industry delivery group will need to consider how best to implement commercial dashboards alongside the non-commercial one. Which? magazine and others across the industry have suggested that a gradual expansion, starting with a single, non-commercial dashboard, is likely to reduce the potential for confusion and help to establish consumer trust.

The second issue of contention is that passing the pensions dashboards on to the private sector will mean that there is no guarantee of compliance from all providers, and will centralise huge amounts of financial information for the private sector to access. In answer to that, I say that in developing the infrastructure for pensions dashboards, industry must adhere to the rights of the individual and principles as set out in the Data Protection Act 2018, which reflects the general data protection regulation. That includes the individual’s right to data portability and principles of accuracy, storage, access and security. There would be no aggregation of the user’s information in the storing of the data in any of the components in the dashboard’s ecosystem, other than by the pension scheme or an integrated service provider operating on behalf of the provider. That supports the overarching delivery principles of keeping data secure and putting the individual in control of their data. Access to the data would be available only to the user unless specific consent is given—that goes back to my point about Merseyside. Dashboard operators would not be allowed to access the data for any purpose unless they had the specific consent of the user.

I anticipate that the delivery group, working with the regulators, will seek to agree data standards for pension providers and dashboards. Those data standards will need to support whatever level of functionality is required through different phases of implementation and ongoing development of the dashboard service. The pensions dashboard is so important because of the number of people who have now invested in their own pension pot. In the five years from 2012, the percentage of eligible employees participating in a workplace pension rose from 55% to 84%.

Kirstene Hair Portrait Kirstene Hair (Angus) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my hon. Friend for bringing this important debate to the House. Does he agree that the auto-enrolment programme that the Government introduced has ensured that many low-paid and younger people are also investing in their retirement? As a young person, I would say that is something we would always push into the future. The system must be accessible to young people as much as to older people, and we must ensure that they are educated in the system that is introduced.

Matthew Offord Portrait Dr Offord
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I must have left my speech on the photocopier, because once again, I have been anticipated. My hon. Friend is absolutely right; among those aged 22 to 29, participation has increased from 35% to 79% over the same period. That is certainly something we can all be pleased about. Automatic enrolment, which was also launched in 2012, has driven that increase and created millions of new savers, with nearly 10 million eligible employees having been automatically enrolled. Since April 2018, those savers are contributing at least 5% of their eligible income into their private pension pot, inclusive of employer contribution, and next year that will rise to 8%, including employer contributions.

In addition to those young people, it is worth mentioning the number of females who are now enrolled in pension schemes. Compared with the figure for 2012, an additional 3 million women now have a workplace pension thanks to auto-enrolment. As I said before, in the 22 to 29 age group, participation in the private sector has risen from 35% in 2012 to 79% in just five years. In total, the number of people who possess a workplace pension reached a record high of 41.1 million in 2017, up nearly 50% since 2012.

I ask the Minister to tell me in his summing-up speech whether he will provide not only me, but perhaps the House of Commons Library, with the auto-enrolment figures for all constituencies across the United Kingdom. I am particularly keen to see those figures for my Hendon constituents.

In conclusion, I believe pension freedoms have given people greater choice about when and how they use their pension savings. That is truly a transformation of our savings culture. The initiative displays true Conservative values of creating opportunity, nurturing aspiration and assisting people to take responsibility for their own futures. I hope the pensions dashboard is considered by other Ministers and inspires them to take similar actions in their own Departments.

Joan Ryan Portrait Joan Ryan (in the Chair)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will just say to the Back-Bench speakers that if they take about four or possibly five minutes and manage themselves, the Opposition Front-Bench speakers will have five minutes each and the Minister will have 10, and everybody should be able to get in.

16:43
Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
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It is a pleasure to speak in this debate, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Hendon (Dr Offord) on securing it. I am happy to make a comment within the timescale that you have set out, Mrs Ryan,

Pensions are a thorny issue; many people made their financial plans based on the promise of a pension that has not materialised. There are also those who invested, only to lose their money and get only 30p in the pound of their investment, but that is a debate for another day; in fact, we had a debate on that last Thursday in the main Chamber; it was on Equitable Life, and those who had paid into a pension but did not get their money. It is easy to understand the concerns that some of us have about people’s need for a pension; the hon. Gentleman referred to the need for a pensions dashboard.

I can well recall—although it was not yesterday—my mum taking me down to the Northern Bank, as it was, to open my first account when I was 16. I also remember that when I turned 18, she took me to fill in the policy with the insurance man and said, “Make sure you’re putting money aside every month for that purpose.” That was thriftiness, but it was also really good direction from my mum, as always, because it was important that we knew why we did those things. I am a wee bit older now, and I am glad that I signed up for those things many years ago, because I will benefit from them in the years ahead.

Today’s debate is an attempt to ensure that people are not left in the lurch in the way that women born in the 1950s and the Equitable Life savers have been. It is an issue that it is certainly worth people considering if they are working hard and seeking to invest, so that someday they do not have to work, but can enjoy life without having to miss out on the things that they have while working a nine-to-five job. It is my sincere hope and desire that the work that the Treasury Committee and others are doing to prevent another Equitable Life scandal will be successful, but irrespective of that, a dashboard with real-time information has to be useful for those who are planning their future, as the hon. Gentleman said.

I must say that the key decisions that came from the Government consultation give rise to some concern. One concern relates to data security. The fact that all financials are held and accessible by the industry independently raises concern. I hope the Minister can reassure me on that. My concern is heightened by the breach in Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority data security, which led to the addresses of my staff members being released. That shook our office and caused great concern, given that we hail from a political party in Northern Ireland, and given its history. Such data security breaches underline my concerns. The Government must ensure that there are guidelines in place to reassure people, including my constituents and me.

I also have grave concerns regarding proposals that would result in pension fund members being targeted by those who want their business. Although I agree that multiple dashboards would improve consumer choice, it is essential that alongside those—I think the hon. Gentleman referred to this—there be a non-commercial dashboard, hosted by the single financial guidance body, and offering an impartial service to those who prefer that, or who may not want to be targeted by the market. We must cover all choices and tastes.

Another essential issue for me is that the cost of this dashboard should not hit the pension or the consumers; there should rather be an obligation on the industry to bear the cost. Although the autumn Budget has made available funding for 2019-20 to facilitate the industry’s making dashboards a reality, it is clear that that is to get the dashboard on its feet, as opposed to making it a Government service. That is another consideration.

I am conscious of time, so I will conclude with this point. In principle, I support the idea of people having greater knowledge of their financial status. There are so many people who come into my office with their pension annual statement, not understanding what it means—not only older people, but young career people who have been made to sign up to a pension, but have no idea what the money that they pay, or their employer pays, is used for. It is surprising how many people do not know.

David Drew Portrait Dr David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That is why we need proper enterprise education in schools. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that is when it should start, and that it should not end until people enter the workplace?

Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Gentleman; just as the hon. Member for Hendon thought that someone had read his script, my next words are on the very subject to which the hon. Gentleman refers. The subject is not covered in school, but it clearly should be, because these young people literally have no idea what their pension means. He is absolutely right, and his intervention underlines the responsibilities that we have a duty to perform. I sincerely believe that a pension dashboard can help this generation, but the safety and security of financial information is paramount.

I look forward to the Minister’s response; I feel that some of the assurances I have sought in this small contribution are assurances that he can provide, and if he does, he will set a lot of minds at rest.

16:48
Paul Masterton Portrait Paul Masterton (East Renfrewshire) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Ryan. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Dr Offord) on securing this debate; I thought he did a brilliant job of explaining why the dashboard is so welcome and so necessary, so I will not take up too much time going over old ground, but I want to comment once again on why the dashboard is so important and so necessary.

While it is true that we have 9 million new people coming into the workplace pension scheme through auto-enrolment, and those people can hopefully be more engaged in their pension savings throughout their working life, historically that is simply not what has happened. Quite frankly, many people have absolutely no idea what sort of pension savings they have built up over 20, 30 or 40 years of work. Many companies that they have worked for will no longer exist, and the insurance companies that held their pension schemes may have been amalgamated or no longer exist at all.

Those people will suddenly find themselves coming up to their retirement not really having any idea of what sort of pension savings they have, other than those savings made with a main employer that they were with for a long time. It is not particularly surprising that research shows that one in five adults will admit to having lost at least one pension pot. I think that probably understates it, because there will be people who will not admit that they cannot remember what pension savings they have, and there will be people who do not know that they do not know what pension savings they have.

The Pensions Policy Institute research suggesting that consumers have lost track of about £19.5 billion in pension pots really reinforces why we need the dashboard, why it needs to be all-encompassing and, as was said, why we need to make sure that all providers are properly committed to providing the information. The dashboard will not be much use if whether it is any good depends on which provider a person was linked with in the workplace; what would be the point? It needs to work for absolutely everybody.

I thought it was perfectly sensible that the Government decided to take a slightly different approach and push the private sector to lead more on the dashboard’s development; it had been doing most of the running on that, anyway. However, whatever the final dashboard or various dashboards look like, it is vital that the state pension element be included in it, to give people that full picture of their retirement saving. I liked the idea from my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Julian Knight), who is no longer in his place, of looking at ways to link up the dashboard with broader financial products, but we should probably walk before we can run, and make sure that the dashboard is up and running before we start making it more complicated.

I have a couple of questions for the Minister. First, the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) raised the issue of data security and identity risks, which I think are very real. The Government Gateway is doing a lot of good stuff to protect against those risks, but we will need to be pretty satisfied, through the regulatory framework, that data is secure, and that there will be no danger.

Guy Opperman Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Guy Opperman)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It may help the House if I address the point raised by my hon. Friends the Members for East Renfrewshire (Paul Masterton), and for Hendon (Dr Offord), and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). For those who have not had the opportunity to see it, chapter 4 on page 29 of the consultation sets out in quite a lot of detail the efforts we propose to take on data security. The matter is clearly subject to consultation, but without any shadow of a doubt, it will not be proposed that the dashboard be a data storage device. Pension companies will provide one individual’s data back to that individual, rather than it going through a conglomerated site, which would be eminently more hackable, for obvious reasons.

Paul Masterton Portrait Paul Masterton
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Minister for that intervention, which was very useful and clarifies the point nicely. My other questions are on the industry delivery group. Is the Minister in any kind of position to explain the process for setting that up, and when it is likely to be set up? The main point is to make sure that the members of the group have the right mix of experience and backgrounds to deliver.

The pensions dashboard is another example of good pensions policy built on a consensual, cross-party basis. As more people come into the pension system because of auto-enrolment, it will be absolutely critical that they are able to keep track of what they have saved in the long term, over their working life.

16:53
Nick Smith Portrait Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I congratulate the hon. Member for Hendon (Dr Offord) on securing the debate. To state the obvious, pensions are critical, but they can also be extremely complicated. People have an average of 11 jobs over their working life, so they are bound to build up several different pension pots over time. There are more than 40,000 private pension schemes in the UK, so bringing all the information together in one place and making it easy for people to access is sensible, though clearly a big step. That is why the pensions dashboard was supported cross-party, and by the industry.

However, there are real concerns about delegating the operation to the private sector. I will emphasise the areas where we need clarity urgently. First, the Government state that they expect people’s state pension entitlement “to ultimately be part” of the dashboard, but do not elaborate. Given that that is a major segment of many people’s total pension pot, will the Minister say by what date the state pension will be part of the dashboard?

Secondly, the Government say that they expect “the majority” of pension schemes to be included on the dashboard within three to four years, but then say they would legislate to ensure that occurs within

“a reasonable timeframe agreed by industry”.

To make better progress and to aid future pensioners, will the Government set a three-year timeframe in legislation and require all pension schemes to comply with it? I understand how big this task is, but we need to be ambitious on the timeframes.

Thirdly, the Government say that they expect

“a standard level of identity assurance”

for the service. I thank the Minister for his intervention, but given that people’s most sensitive financial information will be centralised, should the safeguards here not be made as strong as possible, just as they should for our consumer banking services? That is really important.

Finally, it was reported today that the Financial Conduct Authority has only 10 staff, out of a total of 3,700, working on investment scams, which is way off being enough. Does the Minister believe that is adequate, given that nearly £200 million was lost to scams last year?

Accurate and straightforward information is essential to helping people navigate this important but sometimes complex field. We need to make sure that they have that information, so that they have peace of mind when making critical financial decisions for the future.

16:56
Giles Watling Portrait Giles Watling (Clacton) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Dr Offord) for securing the debate. Speaking as one who probably had many thousands of jobs over my career, I think it is terribly important that we make clear how the pensions system works. This dashboard does just that.

As the Government announced when launching the consultation on the dashboard last December, the platform will put individuals in control of their data. I have to be absolutely honest: I was never clear about the data on my pensions at any given moment, and I used to have to sit down for some time to sort it all out, so this change makes sense.

I have no doubt that the dashboard will be a positive development for Clacton, where, like most places across the country, we have an aging population. In fact, we have the third-highest percentage of retirees in the country. There are 27,485 pensioners in Clacton—a number that now includes me—and by 2030 that is expected to increase by more than 20%, to 32,982. That means that at least 5,497 individuals out there working hard for their retirement will end up living, by sheer good fortune or whatever, on the glorious sunshine coast of Clacton in my wonderful constituency.

I want every one of those people to have a comfortable retirement, just as I want those who are already retired and living in my constituency to be comfortable; they are, after all, 40% of my electorate. As a matter of fact, I will be holding an older people’s fair in June, to ensure that they have all the support that they need. However, I also recognise the range of steps that the Government have taken to help older people during their retirement. Most important is the triple lock, which we are very sensibly retaining, and which means, as we well know, that the basic state pension will rise in line with inflation or earnings, or by 2.5%, whichever is highest. There are many beneficial policies for older people.

However, while I welcome these changes, I am worried about the prospects of future retirees. Even with more people saving, the workers of today are just not saving enough, despite their continuing hard work and the fastest wage growth for 10 years. In the future, when the savers of today retire, they are likely to come under greater pressure from a combination of factors, including reduced wealth and higher expenditure on social care and housing. We must mitigate those pressures, and I believe that the pensions dashboard gives us the opportunity to do just that.

The Pensions and Lifetime Savings Association recommended in its “Hitting The Target” report that

“the UK should develop and implement a series of targets”

on retirement income

“which build on the current analysis of what people need in retirement.”

According to the report, only 23% of people are unlike me and know how much they need to save to achieve an adequate retirement income. Workers of today must be encouraged to save more, and 70% of those workers say that targets would help them to do just that.

Unsurprisingly, I therefore argue that those targets must be incorporated into the Government’s version of the dashboard, and I ask that the industry does the same when developing its offering. In fact, that should be the minimum of our ambitions for this potentially transformative platform.

I ask the Government to approach the development of the dashboard platform with one aim in mind: ensuring that everyone saves more, but especially the young. The ease of access to data that the dashboard will provide should encourage that. Only 40% of millennials are likely to achieve an adequate retirement income. We are exposing ourselves to huge potential pressures on the welfare and social care systems—issues that we are already struggling to grapple with today—if current savers move into retirement without adequate income. Make no mistake: I do not believe that the dashboard is a silver bullet. However, it is at least a start. A well crafted and ambitious pensions dashboard is central to what I have described.

17:00
Craig Tracey Portrait Craig Tracey (North Warwickshire) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ryan. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Dr Offord) on securing the debate. I declare an interest as chair of the all-party parliamentary group for insurance and financial services.

I welcome the concept of the pensions dashboard. My hon. Friend the Minister knows that I am a huge fan of it. The world of work is changing. The Government estimate that people will have up to 11 jobs during their working life. That potentially means 11 different pension pots during that time, so it will be very difficult for people to keep track of the funds and work out how much money they will have when they stop working. I cannot claim to have had anywhere near as many jobs as my hon. Friend the Member for Clacton (Giles Watling), but having had two jobs before this one, even I find it difficult to keep up to date with the pension funds and who administers them now. The issue is not just that I have changed jobs, but that the companies that administer the funds have changed because the funds have changed hands. It is really difficult to keep up with that.

Figures from the insurance company Aviva show that there is about £400 million-worth of unclaimed pension savings. That highlights the fact that people do not know how much they have or where their pensions are. The Department for Work and Pensions estimates that, without the dashboard, 50 million pension pots will be dormant by 2050. I am therefore sure that, across the Chamber, we will agree that there is huge merit in the pensions dashboard, which will allow savers to view all their pension savings, including the state pension, in a single online place of their choosing. Certainly the feedback that we have had in the all-party group is that there is strong consumer support for that.

I congratulate the Minister on his tenacity in persevering with the pensions dashboard. I know that it has not always been straightforward, but he has seen this as a really good concept, and that is to be applauded.

I reiterate many of the points made by other hon. Members. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made an interesting point about his mum. My dad was a financial adviser, and I remember him saying to me when I was 17 and had my first job, “Put £10 a month into your pension pot. You’ll never miss it.” He was paying me only £15 a month at the time, I think, but I did not really miss it. There was good economic sense in doing that at the time. We need to get people engaged early in life. The more we can do that, the more their pots will accrue. With an ageing society, it is more important than ever to help people keep track of their pension savings, as I have said.

Having echoed those points, I want to raise just three points with the Minister, and I would be grateful for his remarks on them. First, I agree with the DWP and the Association of British Insurers that competition is key, so multiple dashboards should be available. That will encourage a greater level of innovation, personalisation and consumer orientation. The proposed collaborative approach between the industry and Government is absolutely the right one to take.

However, there is a worry in the industry—this point was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon—that the state dashboard might be done first and then be followed by subsequent dashboards at a later date. Will the Minister comment on the current thinking on that? I think that it could lead to confusion, with people switching and so on, so it would seem sensible to launch them all together.

Secondly, I have heard concerns raised about the funding of both the dashboard and the single financial guidance body. The feedback is that it is important that all providers pay their fair share. There are worries that the proposed model, which uses only the Financial Conduct Authority levies, means that not all will contribute equally. I am thinking in particular of occupational pensions. Again, I would be grateful if the Minister commented on that.

My final point is something of a personal crusade. There is talk of a midlife MOT for people so that they can check where they are in life—how well they are doing and how prepared they are. I suggest that we go further than that and introduce checks every 10 years from point zero, where people are given feedback about their pension pots. If people see that the money starts at zero and they have to build it up by being in work and accruing a fund, I think it will encourage them to work. They will see that they are actually working towards their future by being employed and that if they want a better quality of life in retirement, putting more in their pension pot during their working life will assist that.

To conclude, I welcome the proposals and again thank the Minister for the work that he has done to get them on the table.

17:05
Richard Graham Portrait Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
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Ms Ryan, I apologise for joining the debate slightly late. It is a pleasure, though, to follow my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Craig Tracey). I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Dr Offord) on this important debate. I entirely agree with much that has been said so far.

The key thing is that the pensions dashboard is a modern solution for modern needs, at a time when having a single-employer career and a defined-benefit pension is largely a minority and public sector exception to the rule. In today’s world, as a result of the pension freedoms introduced by this Government, there are many opportunities for individuals both to access their pension and to pass it on. That means that, alongside the figure that my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire cited for unclaimed pensions, there is not only greater opportunity for people in how to use the pension pots they have accumulated, but greater uncertainty about how to use them and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Clacton (Giles Watling) said, about how to access the relevant information. For all those reasons, a pensions dashboard is a very good thing.

I ask my hon. Friend the Minister to respond to just one thought. There are two aspects to the pensions dashboard. One is the technology, on which members of the ABI have made significant progress. No doubt we will hear more about that, because it is very encouraging. The other aspect is the preparation that is needed from pension providers. That is important because if the dashboard is up and ready but the information from the pension providers is not there, it will be as much use as a new car without wheels. That would be a very sad thing for the current cross-party consensus in the House that a pensions dashboard will be very useful for many people. I therefore encourage the Pensions Minister to say a few words about what the Government might do to encourage pension providers to ensure that when the technology is ready, everything on their side of the equation will be ready as well.

17:07
Patricia Gibson Portrait Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
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I thank the hon. Member for Hendon (Dr Offord) for initiating the debate. We have heard today, and I think we can all agree, that a pensions dashboard is a positive step. The utility of an online tool that shows users facts and figures about their pensions, such as how much money they can expect their pension pots to hold, is clear, particularly in view of the fact that research shows that 47% of the UK’s population do not know how much their pension pots contain. Given that people have, on average, about 11 jobs in their lifetime, pension pots can be challenging to keep track of, as we have heard.

I know from my own constituents that there was some alarm when the UK Government appeared to distance themselves from the pensions dashboard pilot, before going on to announce that they would introduce multiple pensions dashboards. Nobody would argue that the UK Government should not work in partnership with the pensions industry to deliver a pensions dashboard, but it really should be the Government’s responsibility. For the purposes of clarity and simplicity, there should be only one dashboard. If, as is proposed, there are multiple dashboards, the only thing we know for sure—and experts in the industry agree—is that there will be confusion and risk, and the whole thing may become ineffective. Ultimate responsibility for the delivery of a clean, simple, comprehensive and user-friendly pensions dashboard must rest with the Government and not the pensions services sector.

A proper pensions dashboard would allow people to see the value of their state, occupational and private pensions in one place, thereby helping them to keep better track of their pension income. In my correspondence and communication with the Minister on this matter, he has demonstrated no firm commitment to ensure that state pension data is included from the outset. I am keen to hear, unequivocally, that that has been reconsidered.

The Minister has offered me no commitment that providers will be compelled through legislation to contribute information or supply data to a pensions dashboard, as the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) pointed out. I am keen to hear that the Minister has also reconsidered that. According to experts in the field, not compelling providers to supply information will mean that the most important pensions data is not captured by the dashboard. It seems that private companies will develop a model for themselves. Now I hear that the pensions industry will take a lead on this matter. That risks the entire dashboard being incomplete and far less useful than it should be.

Many pensions experts have expressed concern that without strong commitment from the Government, the project may fail in its aims. If there is missing data in the pensions dashboard, it will be as useful as a recipe with only some of the ingredients listed. It seems that the UK Government will merely facilitate a dashboard, which I take to mean—perhaps I am wrong and the Minister will correct me—that it will be entirely in the hands of private companies and the information it contains may well be incomplete.

I know that the Government think that their plans for dashboards are revolutionary and radical—or transformative, as the hon. Member for Clacton (Giles Watling) said—and it is true that the potential is there, but I fear that it will not be met. I remind the Minister that a single dashboard is essential, not only for the reasons I have already given, but because it will provide a safeguard against scammers through restricted access. We know that consumers who have been scammed have been tricked out of an average of £91,000 of their pension savings. Those who work in this field have warned that unless the public are absolutely clear how many dashboards there are, multiple dashboards could make it easier for scammers to trick the public into divulging personal data, despite what the hon. Member for Hendon said.

We know that data security will be key in giving consumers confidence to use the dashboard to plan their retirement. I heard what the Minister had to say about data security, but I believe that there are ongoing concerns. I ask the Minister to take those concerns on board and to ensure that all those who are retired or are planning to retire can have confidence in a single pensions dashboard that helps to support their understanding and management of their financial future. I believe that the Government must have ultimate responsibility for this, and they must not be seen to abdicate that responsibility to the private sector, given all the concerns I have raised.

17:12
Jack Dromey Portrait Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ryan. I congratulate the hon. Member for Hendon (Dr Offord) on raising this crucial debate at a crucial moment. To state the blindingly obvious, pensions are about a decent income in retirement, and ensuring security and dignity. To achieve those objectives, it is crucial that people know precisely what they have saved thus far, and what they need to do at the next stages to ensure that they are saving enough to enjoy a decent standard of living, and security and dignity in retirement.

The pensions landscape has been troubled, most recently through scandals around British Steel. My hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) was absolutely right. I will never forget the story of the shift supervisor in south Wales who wept as he told how he had been mis-sold a bad deal. Not only would he suffer as a consequence, but the 20 people he was responsible for supervising all followed his lead and all stood to lose. Pension cold-calling was an utter outrage. I will come back to that in a moment.

Are there still problems? Yes, there are. However, it is also right that we record that welcome progress is being made, cross-party, on four fronts. First, progress is being made on auto-enrolment. The Minister has heard me say before that I was proud to chair the policy discussions when Labour, then in government, appointed Adair Turner to carry out his inquiry, leading to the establishment of auto-enrolment. I welcome the continuity of that policy under this Government.

Is auto-enrolment perfect? The hon. Member for Hendon raised this issue earlier. No, it is not. There remain problems. Because of the threshold, 37% of female workers, 33% of workers with a disability and 28% of black, Asian and ethnic minority workers do not qualify. Auto-enrolment does not cover the self-employed or workers in the gig economy. Having said that, 10 million more people are now saving for their pension, and that is a thoroughly good thing.

Secondly, the Act that the Minister and I took through the House last year, which established the single financial guidance body and banned cold-calling, was a welcome step in the right direction. Thirdly—again, we have been working cross-party on this—the ground-breaking notion of collective defined contribution schemes marks significant progress. The historic agreement reached by Royal Mail and the Communication Workers Union, covering 143,000 workers, delivered a pension outcome infinitely better than if the workers concerned had had to fall back on DC schemes.

Fourthly, the dashboard is a sign of progress. As the hon. Member for Clacton (Giles Watling) said, the dashboard is important, because to enjoy a decent income in retirement, one needs to know what one needs to save. There have been some fascinating initiatives taken within the industry. NOW: Pensions provided three examples for consumers: “If you want an old banger for the rest of your life in retirement, choose this one; if you want to buy a new car in five to 10 years’ time, choose this one; if you want to go somewhere exotic on holiday, choose this one.” That is very interesting information, which helps to guide people, so that they know what they need to save. Crucially, in the first place, they need to know what they are entitled to, so the dashboard is absolutely key.

The hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Paul Masterton) was right when he said that there are billions of pounds locked away and unclaimed, which people are entitled to. Hopefully, the dashboard will help to overcome that problem, too. There is no question but that this is a welcome step in the right direction. I stress that we stand ready to work with the Government to give effect to primary legislation as quickly as possible. Yesterday, we spoke about the importance of progress on CDC pensions. The sooner a pensions Bill can be brought forward that focuses on those two areas in particular, the better. While the devil is in the detail, there is such substantial cross-party agreement that we want to get this legislated on, acted on, and taken to the next stage.

The dashboard is a welcome step in the right direction. There has been a great degree of dialogue and an extensive consultation, which is now closed. Some useful points were made in that consultation. The plans for the SFGB-run dashboard are welcome. I agree with the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) that a non-commercial approach would be preferable. Indeed, one dashboard would be preferable. Against the background of what the Government are proposing, will legislation to compel providers to supply data be in place before the SFGB-run dashboard is live? That is key to ensuring that savers are not given a half-baked product at launch. Will the regulations that compel providers to comply cover all dashboards, or just the SFGB one? When will the state pension data be available to view on the dashboard? Will the Minister reassure us about the point made by the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire in relation to data security?

In conclusion, this is a historic and welcome step in the right direction. The Government need to listen to the concerns that have been raised, including in the consultative process, in order to get this right. The sooner that we can move forward to legislate and bring the dashboard into being, the better.

17:18
Guy Opperman Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Guy Opperman)
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Thank you, Ms Ryan, for chairing this debate. I thank the 16 colleagues who have supported my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Dr Offord). He has brought forward a debate that is clearly topical and important. In times when some might argue that Parliament is not debating matters, here is an example of a cross-party approach, to try to address a problem for our times with a modern, FinTech solution. I believe that has application to one and all.

There is no doubt that the pensions dashboard will be part of the FinTech revolution. It is a reform that can harness innovative technology to tech-charge pensions. It will provide accurate, secure and easy-to-understand information about people’s pension pot in one place. Fundamentally, it is a democratiser. It will bring a traditional 20th-century—some would say 19th-century—industry into the 21st century, so that the information is available to one and all on an iPad, smartphone or tablet. That is surely the right thing to do at a time when, as hon. Members have outlined, auto-enrolment has been transformational. Nearly 10 million people have auto-enrolled, and 1.4 million businesses are in a position to provide auto-enrolment to their workers.

I accept the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, and I will put the auto-enrolment statistics in the Library for all Members. I will also see whether I can make a short written ministerial statement about putting it there. In his constituency, 14,000 people are benefiting from auto-enrolment, thanks to more than 2,000 employers on his patch who are supporting individuals in that way. The stats on how many individuals have the benefit of auto-enrolment, and how many business are supporting it, are available to hon. Members for each and every constituency.

As was rightly outlined by hon. Members, there is cross-party consensus. That is the right way forward, because pension policy works on a cross-party basis. The consultation closed on 28 January, and we hope to respond to it by approximately mid-March. It answers some of the points made by hon. Members. We hope that the dozens of responses submitted will provide further answers, and that the Government response will also provide some answers. Hon. Members will understand that I am constrained in how I can respond to matters raised today by the fact that I am making a live, formal response, but I will endeavour to respond to the best of my ability.

On the point about compelling individual providers, paragraph 180 of the consultation clearly sets out that it is the Government’s intention to proceed to compulsion. My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) and the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) raised the issue of the timetable for data provision by providers. I was interested to hear the suggestion of the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent of a robust three-year time limit. Several providers responded to the consultation, and we will go through those responses in some detail.

There can be no doubt, however, that compulsion is coming, and that the only issue is the timeline. Certain providers could provide the data quite quickly. By and large, they know who they are, because they are the modern master trust providers that are already up to speed. Others will take longer. There is a legitimate debate to be had in this House, as we introduce the Bill, about whether we put in place a specific time limit for data provision, or whether that is done in secondary legislation, and with merely indicative outlines.

I will briefly deal with the Financial Conduct Authority. I am conscious of the evidence given at the Work and Pensions Committee today, and I have spoken to the Chair, the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Frank Field). I accept that there must be a better way to regulate pension transfers, and to give individuals advice on how they handle their money; there was examination of that point by the all-party Work and Pensions Committee. I welcome its views.

The hon. Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) said that simple is good. There is no doubt that the view of the Government, and of the vast majority of providers, is that simple is the way ahead. If the dashboard cannot be accessible on a laptop or mobile phone, and give an understanding of what assets an individual has in their pension, there will be difficulties. We need to make a traditional, paper-based business accessible to the individual, and that is certainly what we will seek to do.

I do not have time to go into the detail of the difference between commercial and non-commercial providers of the dashboard. As set out in some detail in the consultation, however, it is definitely the Government’s view that there should be a commercial and a non-commercial provider; they would provide individual dashboards. To harness industry innovation and maximise consumer engagement, the right way forward is to have an open standards approach that allows for multiple dashboards in the future.

However, the delivery body—it should be the single financial guidance body, as we set out in the consultation—should be the provider of a non-commercial dashboard that is effectively state-run through a third party. Such provision is obviously dependent on the delivery model and the delivery group that is set up. That works hand in hand with the response to the consultation, so I cannot give more detail, given where we are at this stage. I hope to update the House in the formal consultation response in March.

Nick Smith Portrait Nick Smith
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister did an elegant soft-shoe shuffle around my question about whether the FCA had sufficient capacity to deal with financial scammers. It would be unfair to press him on it now, but I ask him to challenge the FCA privately about whether it has enough people working for it to ensure that rogues are held to account.

Guy Opperman Portrait Guy Opperman
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We all wish to ensure that the difficulties that the hon. Gentleman’s constituents went through with the British Steel pensions scheme do not happen again. I assure him that I met the FCA on Monday. It had an interesting time today in front of the Work and Pensions Committee. The views of the right hon. Member for Birkenhead are clear, and I will liaise with him on an ongoing basis. We know what direction we are going in, but with regard to how we proceed, the devil is in the detail. That relates to not just the transfer, but the advice to the individual thereafter, which is complex. There are various versions of a way ahead on that.

Several other issues have been raised. My hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Craig Tracey) made the point about funding. In other countries, funding has been provided through a levy system on the pensions business, as has traditionally been the case in this country. I will take away his point about occupational pensions, but I certainly anticipate that we will go down the levy route, unless others persuade me otherwise.

On my hon. Friend’s other point about the timings of the non-commercial and the commercial dashboards, again relates to the response to the consultation, and is that a matter for the delivery organisation. There is no question but that we desire all organisations to be up to speed as soon as possible. As for how we do the non-commercial and commercial dashboards at the speeds that we are talking about, that is something that we genuinely cannot say at present, but I take the point on board.

My hon. Friend knows that I am a passionate advocate of the mid-life MOT, and I am happy to discuss it in the House on an ongoing basis, because it is definitely the right thing for the future. Various companies, particularly Aviva and Hargreaves Lansdown, are pioneering it; more specifically, the Department for Work and Pensions is considering conducting one for some of its staff.

I am conscious of the time, and that I must give my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon a minute to respond to the debate. I thank hon. Members for their many recommendations. I hope that the dashboard can be used across all financial products, so that our banking apps, and information about our pension providers and our savings, all become available to us in that way in the longer term. I welcome the cross-party support that clearly exists in the House for it, and I look forward to developing it with hon. Members.

17:29
Matthew Offord Portrait Dr Offord
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I thank all hon. Members who attended the debate, even though the House has adjourned.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) spoke about saving from an early age, which is something I did with my first TSB account; the dashboard will encourage that. My hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire (Paul Masterton) spoke about the £19 billion in lost pensions, which is a sum that could help many people across the country, if it could ever be identified who the money belonged to.

The hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) talked about the importance of there being clarity about providers, and the inclusion of the state pension, which is a good idea. My hon. Friend the Member for Clacton (Giles Watling) spoke about individuals being in control and the triple lock, which are both good things.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Craig Tracey) raised the issue of the mid-life MOT; I would certainly like to see such an MOT for every decade. My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) spoke about the pensions value accrued over his career, and the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) spoke about the single dashboard provider. The inclusion of state pensions would be interesting, as I said.

The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) brings great experience to the debate, particularly as a former trade unionist. He spoke about the achievements. Finally, I thank the Minister for all his work. He has made pensions interesting.

17:29
Motion lapsed, and sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order No. 10(14)).

Written Statements

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Written Statements
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Wednesday 6 February 2019

Ministry of Defence Votes A Annual Estimate 2019-20

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

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Gavin Williamson Portrait The Secretary of State for Defence (Gavin Williamson)
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The Ministry of Defence Votes A estimate 2019-20, will be laid before the House on 6 February 2019 as HC 1852. This outlines the maximum numbers of personnel to be maintained for each service in the armed forces during financial year 2019-20.

[HCWS1303]

Leaving the EU: Reciprocal Healthcare Legislation

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

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Stephen Hammond Portrait The Minister for Health (Stephen Hammond)
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Current European Union (EU) reciprocal healthcare arrangements enable UK nationals1 to access healthcare when they live, study, work, or travel in the EU and vice versa for EU citizens2 when in the UK. They give people retiring abroad more security; they support tourism and businesses and facilitate healthcare co-operation.

These arrangements ensure that UK nationals living and working in the EU, European Economic Area (EEA) and Switzerland can access healthcare in exchange for paying taxes and social security contributions. The UK also funds healthcare abroad for a number of current or former UK residents. This includes healthcare for UK state pensioners who spend their retirement in the EU and needs arising healthcare when UK residents visit the EU for holiday or study through the European healthcare insurance card (EHIC) scheme.

The Government’s priority is to secure a withdrawal agreement with the EU. However, as a responsible Government, we are preparing for all eventualities, including the possibility the UK leaves the EU without a deal. If necessary, the UK would like to make arrangements with individual EU member states to ensure that there are no immediate changes to people’s access to healthcare after exit day and that there is a strong basis for ongoing co-operation on health issues. The UK is therefore seeking to maintain reciprocal healthcare rights for pensioners, workers, students, tourists and other visitors in line with the current EU arrangements, including reimbursement of healthcare costs, for a transitional period lasting until 31 December 2020. This is only possible with agreement from other member states and we have commenced discussions on this issue.

The Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill (the Bill) is being brought forward as a result of the UK’s exit from the EU; however, it is forward-facing and not intended to deal only with EU exit. The Bill is intended to support the implementation of comprehensive reciprocal healthcare arrangements with countries both within and outside the EU to enable possible future partnerships.

The Bill can be used to implement complex bilateral arrangements with a member state that may differ to current EU arrangements, or to make unilateral arrangements to assist UK nationals to access healthcare abroad in exceptional circumstances and in the interests of patient safety. The Bill also provides the legal basis to fund and process data relating to healthcare outside of the United Kingdom.

The European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 will convert EU law as it stands on exit day into UK domestic law and preserve the laws made in the UK to implement EU obligations. This means that EU regulations providing for EU reciprocal healthcare arrangements will become part of the UK’s statute book on exit day. Without further legislation, in a no-deal scenario the regulations would not be coherent or workable without reciprocity from member states. Therefore, on 7 February, the Government will bring forward two statutory instruments under section 8 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, to prevent, remedy or mitigate deficiencies in retained EU law relating to reciprocal healthcare.

These instruments also afford the UK an additional mechanism for ensuring there is no interruption to healthcare arrangements for UK nationals3 after exit day in those member states who agree to maintain the current arrangements for a transitional period. Through these instruments, the UK can transitionally maintain current EU reciprocal healthcare arrangements for countries where we have established reciprocity during an interim period lasting until 31 December 2020 and no later. The arrangements would not apply to member states who do not agree to maintain the current reciprocal arrangements with us.

Together with the Bill, these instruments are focused on supporting a smooth transition as we exit the EU. Both of these legislative vehicles are necessary to ensure the UK Government are ready to deal with reciprocal and cross-border healthcare in any scenario. They afford the UK Government flexibility of action and ensure the UK is able to respond quickly to protect people’s healthcare.

The Bill and the forthcoming statutory instruments are intended to support further preparations the UK Government are making with regard to reciprocal healthcare arrangements. The Government have issued advice via the Government and NHS websites to UK nationals living in the EU, to UK residents travelling to the EU and to EU nationals living in the UK. This advice explains how the UK is working to maintain reciprocal healthcare arrangements, but that their continuation depends on decisions by member states. It sets out what options people might have to access healthcare under local laws in the member state they live in if we do not have bilateral arrangements in place, and what people can do to prepare. Our advice to people travelling abroad after exit day is to purchase travel insurance, as we already recommend now. These webpages will be updated as more information becomes available.

The Bill and the statutory instruments feed into a broader body of work by the Department of Health and Social Care and across the UK Government, to ensure health and social care systems are well prepared as we exit the EU.

1 This is a short-hand term for persons who are the responsibility of the UK. They may or may not be UK nationals.

2 This is a short-hand term for EU27/EEA/Swiss-insured individuals i.e. persons who are the responsibility of an EU or EEA member state or Switzerland.

3 Please see footnote 1.

[HCWS1304]

Kark Review

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

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Stephen Hammond Portrait The Minister for Health (Stephen Hammond)
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On 23 May 2018, the House was informed that the Government had asked Tom Kark QC to carry out a review of the scope, operation and purpose of the fit and proper person requirement. Tom Kark has now completed his review having engaged on these issues with a range of interested parties, including the Care Quality Commission, NHS improvement, NHS England, and parliamentarians who had expressed an interest. We are today publishing his report on the review of the fit and proper person test as it applies to directors within the health services in England.

Our senior leaders are critical to the delivery of high quality and safe care in the NHS. We owe them our thanks and respect and we need to support them and ensure that they have the right skills and competencies to do these most challenging roles. The review underlines the importance of supporting the vast majority of NHS directors to do a good job and what more could be done in strengthening the leadership in the NHS.

Tom Kark has made seven recommendations and the Government accept in principle the recommendations to develop specified standards of competence that all directors who sit on the board of any health providing organisation should meet, and to create a central database of directors. We will consider all other recommendations including a mandatory reference requirement and a recommendation to introduce a power to disbar directors for serious misconduct. Tom Kark has also recommended that the fit and proper person test should be extended to clinical commissioning groups and appropriate arm’s length bodies.

It is important we consider this review alongside other proposals on leadership and development for NHS managers. I have therefore asked Baroness Harding to look at how best to implement these recommendations through the system wide workforce implementation process which she is chairing and which is set out in the NHS long term plan. We have asked Baroness Harding to consider a range of options and to ensure that she draws on the views of key partners.

I am keen to see the NHS open up to a diverse range of talented individuals from outside the NHS, beyond the traditional NHS background, and more with clinical backgrounds. Excellent NHS directors are vital to delivering a high standard of care and are committed to serving the needs of patients and service users. It is important that we focus on leadership and enhancing the strength of NHS managers as a profession, while dealing appropriately with the small minority of directors whose conduct raises concerns about their suitability for their post.

I would like to thank Tom Kark and his team for their work in delivering this important report.

A copy of the report has been deposited in the Library of both Houses.

[HCWS1301]

Enforcement against Unauthorised Encampments

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

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Sajid Javid Portrait The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sajid Javid)
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We are fortunate to live in one of the most welcoming countries in the world, which has a proud tradition of promoting respect for the rule of law, for property, and for one another. The Government are committed to creating a just and fair country, where equality of opportunity flourishes and the life chances of all are enhanced.

Recent debates in this House have addressed the topic of unauthorised traveller encampments and Members have voiced their constituents’ concerns regarding the impact on both settled and nomadic populations. Ministers across the Government have been deeply troubled by these concerns, particularly by the widespread perception that the rule of law does not apply to those who choose a nomadic lifestyle, and the sense that available enforcement powers do not protect settled communities adequately.

Unauthorised encampments can cause settled communities significant distress, and for some they perpetuate a negative image of the travelling community, the vast majority of whom are law-abiding citizens.

Recognising these concerns, the Government launched a consultation in April last year on the effectiveness of enforcement against unauthorised developments and encampments. Through this consultation, we sought views from a number of stakeholders—including local authorities, police forces, travelling communities and the general public—on whether there is anything we can do to ensure that existing powers can be used more effectively and if additional powers are required.

A cross-Government response to the consultation will be issued in due course. From an enforcement perspective, the consultation responses signalled clear calls for the Government to take action. We have identified a set of measures to extend powers available to the police, which we believe will enable unauthorised encampments to be tackled more effectively.

First, we will look to amend section 62A of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 to permit the police to direct trespassers to suitable authorised sites located in neighbouring local authority areas. Currently, the police can only direct trespassers to sites within the same local authority area. Extending this power would make it more likely that the police and local authorities could act where a shortage of site capacity exists.

Secondly, we will look to amend sections 61 and 62A of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 to increase the period of time in which trespassers directed from land would be unable to return. Currently, the power prohibits a trespasser from returning to the area of land for three months. We plan to extend this time period to 12 months. This would provide greater protection to land targeted by the same group of trespassers on a regular basis.

Thirdly, we will look to amend section 61 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 to lower the number of vehicles needing to be involved in an unauthorised encampment before police powers can be exercised. The number is currently six or more. We would like to change this to two or more. This will increase the opportunity for police intervention and make it more difficult for trespassers to split into smaller groups to avoid enforcement.

Fourthly, we will look to amend section 61 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 to enable the police to remove trespassers from land that forms part of the highway. The police are currently restricted in dealing with these encampments unless there is a suitable pitch in the same local authority area. We would like to remove this restriction so that it is easier for the police to tackle problematic encampments.

I am pleased to announce that the Home Office will soon launch a public consultation on these measures.

Our original consultation responses were clear that the majority of respondents believe we should consider criminalising unauthorised encampments, as has been done in the Republic of Ireland. This view has been echoed in the wide ranging debates in this House. I am therefore pleased to announce that we will conduct a review into how we can achieve this.

In taking this forward, the Home Office will work closely with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, the Ministry of Justice, and also the Welsh Government, recognising that local government is devolved in Wales.

I thank Members across this House for their engagement on this important issue.

[HCWS1302]

Unauthorised Development and Encampments

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Written Statements
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James Brokenshire Portrait The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government (James Brokenshire)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Government have today published their response to the consultation on powers for dealing with unauthorised development and encampments. This statement should be read alongside the written ministerial statement on improving the effectiveness of enforcement against unauthorised encampments made today by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department.

Since 2010, the Government have taken concerted action to address these matters, including issuing revised planning guidance on enforcement, updated policy, and reforms to temporary stop notices. In March 2015, the Government issued advice on dealing with illegal and unauthorised encampments to all local authorities, the police and landowners to encourage them to work collaboratively to tackle unauthorised encampments, and to remind them of the array of powers which exist for tackling such situations.

In terms of wider Government support for the provision of traveller sites, the new homes bonus provides an incentive for local authorities to encourage housing growth in their areas, and rewards net increases in effective housing stock, including the provision of authorised traveller pitches. In addition, the £9 billion Affordable Homes programme will provide a wider range of homes to meet the housing needs of people in different circumstances and different housing markets, including funding for new traveller pitches. We have also seen that the number of caravans on authorised sites has increased from 14,498 in July 2010 to 19,569 in July 2018, showing that the locally led planning system is working.

But the responses received in our consultation were clear that significant problems are created by many unauthorised encampments. Responses highlighted the sense of unease and intimidation residents feel when an unauthorised encampment occurs, the frustration at not being able to access amenities, public land and business premises, and the waste and cost that is left once the encampment has moved on.

That is why the Government are today setting out a comprehensive range of further measures across multiple Government Departments and agencies, which will help to achieve the Government’s overarching aim of fair and equal treatment for travellers, while respecting the interests of the settled community. The package includes:

a set of measures to extend powers available to the police, to enable unauthorised encampments to be tackled more effectively

a review into the potential criminalisation of unauthorised encampments

new statutory good practice guidance to support local authorities use of powers to deal with unauthorised encampments and a commitment to keep these powers under review, particularly in instances of deliberate and repeated breaches of planning

a commitment to further work to ensure that measures are in place to address issues around the clean-up costs which can occur following an unauthorised encampment

up to £1.5 million of funding for local authorities to support planning enforcement through the next round of the planning delivery fund, helping them deal with unauthorised development

a commitment that the Government are minded to extend the period of time that a temporary stopping notice can be in place for

guidance making clear that the Secretary of State will be prepared to review cases where concerns are raised that there is too high a concentration of authorised traveller sites in one location

a commitment to consult on options for strengthening policy on intentional unauthorised development, helping to maintain confidence and fairness in the planning system

work to make information on permanent and transit sites freely available in open data format so that local authorities have a single clear source of data on the availability of such sites

a reiteration of the planning obligations which local authorities already have to make transit sites available and for joint working between authorities on the setting of pitch and plot targets.

Finally, I am keenly aware of evidence showing that members of the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities have significantly worse health and education outcomes than the rest of society, and of the prevalence of domestic abuse in these communities. I will ensure that my Department’s forthcoming response to our review of domestic abuse service provision takes into account the support needs of victims from this community, and I will work with my colleagues across Government on a strategic approach to improving outcomes for Gypsies, Roma and Travellers, as well as settled communities.

[HCWS1305]

HS2 Construction Partner: Southern Stations

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Written Statements
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Nusrat Ghani Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
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I would like to update the House on the progress of High Speed 2.

As part of this Government’s industrial strategy we are investing in High Speed 2, a transformational infrastructure project that will improve people’s journeys, create jobs, generate economic growth and help to rebalance our country’s economy. HS2 is more than a railway and the project’s vision is to be a catalyst for economic growth. It has cross-party support and support from councils, LEPs, metro Mayors and businesses who can see the transformational potential.

HS2 is making progress and the benefits are already being seen, notably in the investment and job creation in the west midlands in advance of HS2 services, and around 7,000 jobs have been supported so far, rising to around 30,000 at peak.

Parliament has approved the powers to proceed with phase 1 of the railway, between London and the west midlands, and we are making significant progress. Early works are well under way: HS2 Ltd has revealed the designs for new stations in Old Oak Common, Birmingham Interchange and Birmingham Curzon Street; enabling works on the route are progressing; decommissioning and preparatory works are taking place.

As has been seen with Stratford station in east London, railway stations have enormous power to transform their local surroundings. It is why I approved the appointment of a master development partner (Lendlease) on 22 February 2018 to assist HS2 Ltd in delivering the new Euston station development. This will not only provide unparalleled levels of accessibility, ease and convenience for our passengers, but ensure work with local communities to help unlock wider regeneration, new jobs, homes and opportunities.

Last year, the tender shortlist for a construction partner for the two southern stations was released. In a clear signal of how work is progressing, this morning I am pleased to announce the intention to award these important positions to a joint venture between Mace Ltd and Dragados S.A. for Euston and a joint venture between Balfour Beatty Group Ltd, VINCI Construction UK Ltd, VINCI Construction Grands Projets SAS and SYSTRA Ltd for Old Oak Common. They will bring their global construction management expertise to these vitally important pieces of national infrastructure.

This demonstrates how progress is continuing at pace in order to deliver stations that will be embraced by their local communities, drive economic growth and improve rail journeys for passengers, while at the same time delivering this phase of the project to schedule and cost.

The progress we are making with HS2 is clear evidence that the Government are delivering the infrastructure our country needs to build a stronger, fairer, more prosperous Britain.

[HCWS1300]

Grand Committee

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Grand Committee
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Wednesday 6 February 2019

Offensive Weapons Bill

Committee (3rd Day)
15:50
Baroness Fookes Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)
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My Lords, we have started a little late for the obvious reason that people cannot be in two places at once. I must make the normal announcement that if there is a Division in the House, the Committee will immediately adjourn for 10 minutes.

Clause 26: Surrender of prohibited offensive weapons

Amendment 70A had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.
Clause 26 agreed.
Clause 27 agreed.
Clause 28: Offence of threatening with offensive weapon etc in a public place etc
Debate on whether Clause 28 should stand part of the Bill.
Member’s explanatory statement
This, along with amendments to Clause 29, would retain the current definition of risk for the existing offences in section 1A of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 and Section 139AA of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, and for the new offence in Clause 29.
Lord Paddick Portrait Lord Paddick (LD)
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My Lords, I have given notice of our intention to oppose the question that this clause should stand part of the Bill. I will also speak to Amendments 71 and 72. Clause 28 would change current legislation in terms of the risk that must be present for an offence of threatening someone with an offensive weapon to be proved. Currently, the person threatening must do so in such a way that there is an immediate threat of serious physical harm. The Bill changes this level of risk to what a reasonable person would think was an immediate threat of physical harm, not serious physical harm—it is only a perceived threat and not an actual threat.

In their joint briefing, the Standing Committee for Youth Justice and the Prison Reform Trust point out that the new definition is a much lower threshold for conviction. The person being threatened does not have to be present or at actual risk of harm. Previously, there had to be an immediate threat of occasioning grievous bodily harm; now, it is an undefined level of physical harm, and the “reasonable person” test is vague.

Clause 28 relates to offences in public places and Clause 29 to offences on further education premises. I question why these offences are needed at all. Section 3 of the Public Order Act 1986 states that a person is guilty of an offence,

“if he uses or threatens … violence towards another and his conduct is such as would cause a person of reasonable firmness present at the scene to fear for his personal safety”.

An affray may be committed in private as well as in public, and a person guilty of affray is liable to a maximum sentence of three years in prison or a fine, or both. Can the Minister explain which parts of these new offences are not covered by the offence under Section 3 of the 1986 Act?

Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Con)
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I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, for affording the Committee the opportunity to debate the provisions in the Bill updating the offences of threatening with an offensive weapon. It may assist the Committee if I briefly explain the provisions in Section 1A of the Protection of Crime Act 1953 and Section 139AA of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, and then explain why we have brought forward changes to these provisions. I will also cover Section 3.

Section 1A of the 1953 Act provides for an aggravated possession offence where the person in possession of the weapon threatens another person with the weapon in a public place. Section 139AA of the 1988 Act similarly provides for an aggravated possession offence where the person in possession of an article with a blade or point threatens another person with the article in a public place or on school premises.

Unlike the offences in Section 1 of the 1953 Act and Section 139 of the 1988 Act, which are simple possession offences, where a person is convicted of an offence under Section 1A of the 1953 Act or Section 139AA of the 1988 Act, the court must, in the case of an adult, impose a custodial sentence of at least six months’ imprisonment, unless it would be unjust to do so. The power to make a community order is not available in circumstances where the mandatory minimum sentence condition is met.

It is an essential element of these aggravated offences that the defendant threatened the victim with the weapon,

“in such a way that there is an immediate risk of serious physical harm to the victim”,

as the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, explained. However, the view of the Crown Prosecution Service is that the requirement that the defendant threatens with the weapon or article,

“in such a way that there is an immediate risk of serious physical harm to that other person”,

sets too high a bar to prosecution and does not take proper account of the effect of the threat on the victim.

The noble Lord will be aware that in the 12 months to September 2018 there were just under 13,500 offences resulting in a caution or conviction for possession of an article with a blade or point and just under 7,000 for possession of an offensive weapon, but only 958 for threatening with a knife or offensive weapon. I hope the noble Lord will agree that fewer than 1,000 offences of threatening compared with more than 20,000 possession offences does not appear to be an accurate reflection of what is happening on our streets, where we are seeing one homicide a week in London as a result of knife crime. The noble Lord will be aware that this point was made by the Chief Crown Prosecutor for the north-east, Andrew Penhale, when giving evidence in another place.

The penalty for the offence of affray, which the noble Lord referred to, is three years’ imprisonment or a fine, or both. The penalty for threatening with an offensive weapon is four years. The Government consider that that reflects the seriousness of using an offensive weapon to threaten an individual. Importantly, the Government also believe that it is fairer to the victim that the test be based on how a reasonable person in the victim’s place would respond to such a threat, not on whether the victim was objectively at risk of immediate harm. The reference in Clause 28 to the effect on a reasonable person removes the element of subjectivity on the part of the person threatened. We believe that the replacement objective test is more appropriate in the context of these aggravated offences.

Striking out Clause 28 and amending Clause 29, as the noble Lord seeks to do, would maintain the current test of what constitutes risk of physical harm for these aggravated possession offences. However, I put it to the noble Lord that these offences were introduced to protect victims threatened with offensive weapons and ensure that offenders are appropriately punished. Clauses 28 and 29 will ensure that the victim’s point of view is put at the heart of these offences. I hope that I have been able to persuade the noble Lord of the case for the new test and that he will support Clause 28 standing part of the Bill.

16:00
Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas (Con)
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My Lords, can my noble friend say how many offences are committed annually on further education premises, which are the subject of Clause 29? Further education premises are a place where perhaps a majority of the people have an offensive weapon, as defined in the Bill, as part of what they need to do their training. If someone is spending their day with a screwdriver because they are on an electronics course and someone comes up and kicks them in the butt, and they turn round with the screwdriver in their hand, under the amended provision, they will be in chokey for it. We do not seem to have incorporated in it any defence which says that the person had the weapon for perfectly good reasons and was using it for perfectly good reasons when somebody else did something which caused the threatening situation. In public, one does not come across this often, but in an FE college it is a routine occurrence. I cannot see that we should criminalise arguments in FE colleges without there being some reasonable defence.

Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran
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I thank my noble friend for his question. As we are including FE colleges for the first time in the legislation, we do not have the data as yet, but that will be captured in future. We have the data on schools and public places, which I am happy to share with my noble friend. On his last comment, there is no intention of criminalising arguments. We are talking about people in possession of an offensive weapon and threatening someone else with it in such a way that any one of us—assuming that we are all reasonable people—would assume that there was a risk of physical harm.

Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas
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My Lords, if you are waving a screwdriver about, there is a risk of physical harm, which is the point of the old wording of “serious physical harm”: to rule out such a random occurrence. In public places, in schools, by and large people do not handle physical, offensive weapons openly. In a further education college, a lot of people will be, because it will be part of what they are required to do. Nobody doing anything serious with a knife uses a blade that does not lock. Anybody using a screwdriver or other pointed implement will be using something that will be classified, or is capable of being classified, as an offensive weapon. We should make sure that somebody reasonably having in their hands an offensive weapon because they are using it at the moment when the flash of an argument starts does not become the cause for a mandatory prison sentence. There has to be the scope for a court to take a sensible view of what is going on. It is not like a school; it is an environment where offensive weapons are routine and where a lot effort goes into making sure that people use them safely. Common sense needs to be applied when considering whether it is an offence with a bladed weapon or just an argument taking place when one or both of the parties happen to be holding an offensive weapon, because that is what they were supposed to be doing at the time the argument started.

Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I hope that I can reassure my noble friend on two points: first, the spirit of the legislation is not to criminalise people in the way that he has described; secondly, the sentencing guidelines were updated relatively recently, in June last year, and give multiple scenarios for the courts to consider in sentencing—which I think would allay my noble friend’s fears.

Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I would be grateful if my noble friend could share that.

Lord Elton Portrait Lord Elton (Con)
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My Lords, can the Minister remind us of the youngest age to which these provisions apply? I remind her that it is the effect of the legislation, not the intention, that matters.

Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The youngest age to which the provisions apply is 10—the standard age of criminal responsibility.

Lord Garnier Portrait Lord Garnier (Con)
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My Lords, I invite the Minister to look at proposed new subsection (1A)(b) under Clause 29(2) on page 31 of the Bill, where there is reference to unlawfulness and intention.

Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my noble and learned friend for helpfully pointing out that detail.

Lord Paddick Portrait Lord Paddick
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her explanation, most of which does not seem to hold water. She said that under the existing offence, someone can only get six months in prison, so they are unable to get a community sentence. However, an offence of affray carries a three-year sentence; therefore, you can give a community sentence to somebody convicted of affray.

The Minister also said that existing offences under the Prevention of Crime Act and the Criminal Justice Act set the bar too high, evidenced by only 958 offences of threatening and almost one homicide per week. If a knife makes contact with somebody, that is a substantive offence, probably of grievous bodily harm or wounding, possibly with intent. Inflicting grievous bodily harm with intent carries a maximum life sentence, so the number of instances where somebody threatens but does not make contact is likely to be small, but the number of offences where somebody is found in possession of a weapon—perhaps in their pocket—and is not threatening another person is likely to be high. The number of offences of GBH or, regrettably, homicide is likely to be high. That is the plausible explanation for why the number of offences of threatening is low, rather than the evidential bar being set too high for the existing offences.

However, the only reason why the offence of affray does not provide a legitimate and reasonable alternative to the Government’s proposals here is that one carries a sentence of three years and the other a sentence of four years. Of course, that could easily be amended by increasing the maximum sentence for the offence of affray. An objective test is included in the offence of affray under the Public Order Act. I am afraid that apart from the difference in the length of sentences, all the reasoning seems to fall away, bearing in mind that an offence of affray can be committed in private as well as in public so the offence would apply in FE colleges, schools and public places. However, I will not pursue the matter any further at this stage.

Clause 28 agreed.
Clause 29: Offence of threatening with offensive weapon etc on further education premises
Amendments 71 and 72 not moved.
Clause 29 agreed.
Clause 30 agreed.
Amendment 73
Moved by
73: After Clause 30, insert the following new Clause—
“Offence of threatening with a non-corrosive substance
(1) A person commits an offence if they threaten a person with a substance they claim or imply is corrosive.(2) It is not a defence for a person to prove that the substance used to threaten a person was not corrosive or listed under Schedule 1 to this Act.(3) In this section, “threaten a person” means that the person—(a) unlawfully and intentionally threatens another person (“A”) with the substance, and(b) does so in such a way that a reasonable person (“B”) who was exposed to the same threat as A would think that there was an immediate risk of physical harm to B.(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause would create a new offence for those threatening with a non-corrosive substance that they claim or imply is corrosive.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, Amendment 73 seeks to add a new clause to the Bill concerning threatening someone with a non-corrosive substance; as we have heard, it is known as a fake acid attack. My noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe first raised this matter at Second Reading in your Lordships’ House.

We all know that acid attacks are horrific. They give the victim a life sentence of disfigurement, pain and mental anguish, and they need great courage and resilience to overcome that and rebuild their lives. The noble Lord, Lord Bethell, who was in the Room earlier, knows a lot about victims of acid attacks, particularly through the charity work he does.

The threat of an acid attack strikes absolute fear into a person. The person being threatened has no idea that the substance in the bottle in front of them is not real and not corrosive—that it could just be water. They feel the same distress, anguish and fear that the victim of a real attack would feel at that point. This amendment would create a new offence to deal with these fake acid attacks. While the substance itself is not dangerous, it is the fear we seek to address here. We can draw parallels with people pulling out fake guns. Most people would not know whether a gun was real—you would still be very scared if someone was pointing a gun at you. We need to look at that issue.

The offence in question would be a summary offence, and at this stage the amendment is a probing amendment, as I am very keen to hear the Government’s attitude to this issue and how they think it can be dealt with. This is a real issue; fake attacks do happen. I look forward to the debate and the Government’s response. I beg to move.

Lord Garnier Portrait Lord Garnier
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I fully appreciate the intention behind the noble Lord’s proposed new clause. Personally, I have a concern about filling up our statute book with more and more criminal offences, particularly when they replicate existing crimes. It is already an offence to threaten violence. I take the point he makes about replica, fake or toy guns, but might not his better route be to invite the Government to amend the law to increase the penalties for this sort of behaviour or to allow this sort of offence to be dealt with—if it is not already—in the Crown Court, where the sentencing powers are greater, rather than as a summary offence? To fill up—for no doubt worthy purposes—the criminal law with more and more offences that just replicate existing offences strikes me as unfortunate. There may be a better route than the one the noble Lord is advocating.

Lord Paddick Portrait Lord Paddick
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, for supporting what I said in the last group of amendments—albeit he has saved his comments for this group. My argument is that perfectly good legislation is on the statute book, and the additional offence concerning further education premises that the Government are creating in this Bill is unnecessary. To coin a phrase, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Would the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, not agree that Section 3 of the Public Order Act, which states that a person is guilty of an offence,

“if he uses or threatens … violence towards another and his conduct is such as would cause a person of reasonable firmness present at the scene to fear for his personal safety”,

completely encapsulates the circumstances he is talking about in his proposed new offence? That offence, as I have said before, carries a maximum sentence of three years in prison, a fine, or both.

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the noble Lord for explaining his amendment, which he went through at Second Reading. I cannot say that I disagree with the sentiment behind it, because we all know of cases where people have been threatened with fake acid. I also remember the spate of fake gun attacks a few years ago. When the person states that the substance is corrosive and it is not, that adds to the victim’s distress—there is absolutely no doubt about it—and such things cannot be tolerated. But as my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, pointed out, criminal offences are already available that allow such fake acid attacks to be dealt with. Perhaps I should outline some of them.

16:15
There is the offence of common assault, which is defined as any conduct by which a person causes another to apprehend immediate and unlawful personal violence. As a result, this offence could be used where a person threatens another with a substance which that person claims or implies is corrosive. There are also the offences, as the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, said, under the Public Order Act 1986. He mentioned Section 3, but Section 4 could also be used. Section 4 makes it an offence to use threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour towards another person with the intent of causing that person to believe that immediate unlawful violence will be used against him or another. Section 5 of the 1986 Act makes it an offence for a person to use threatening or abusive words or behaviour or disorderly behaviour which is likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress.
When noble Lords consider the distress and alarm that a fake attack could cause—whether with a fake gun or a fake corrosive substance—it is likely that such acts could be prosecuted under one of these 1986 Act offences. We should at this stage also bear in mind the motivation for some fake acid attacks. If the crime is of a racially or religiously motivated nature, the courts can impose stronger sentences. With that explanation, I hope that the noble Lord feels happy to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Minister for her response. I also thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, for their contributions to this short debate; both made reasonable points. I am not in favour of filling up the statute book with lots of laws; I have often thought that we should be consolidating more legislation. Legislation is sometimes confusing for ourselves, let alone members of the public. However, I tabled the amendment to highlight this offence. Young people in particular can often get involved in these situations without realising that they are guilty of an offence, and we must find a way of ensuring that they understand that. I will leave it at that at this stage, but I may come back to the issue on Report. I am grateful to everyone who spoke in the debate, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 73 withdrawn.
Clause 31 agreed.
Amendment 73A
Moved by
73A: After Clause 31, insert the following new Clause—
“PART 5KNIFE CRIME PREVENTION ORDERSKnife crime prevention orders made otherwise than on convictionKnife crime prevention order made otherwise than on conviction
(1) A court may make a knife crime prevention order under this section in respect of a person aged 12 or over (the “defendant”) if the following conditions are met.(2) The first condition is that a person has, by complaint to the court, applied for a knife crime prevention order under this section in accordance with section (Requirements for application for order under section (Knife crime prevention order made otherwise than on conviction)).(3) The second condition is that the court is satisfied on the balance of probabilities that, on at least two occasions in the relevant period, the defendant had a bladed article with them without good reason or lawful authority—(a) in a public place in England and Wales,(b) on school premises, or(c) on further education premises.(4) In subsection (3) “the relevant period” means the period of two years ending with the day on which the order is made; but an event may be taken into account for the purposes of that subsection only if it occurred after the coming into force of this section.(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (3), a person has good reason for having a bladed article with them in a place mentioned in that subsection if the person has the article with them in that place—(a) for use at work,(b) for educational purposes,(c) for religious reasons, or(d) as part of any national costume.(6) The third condition is that the court thinks that it is necessary to make the order—(a) to protect the public in England and Wales from the risk of harm involving a bladed article,(b) to protect any particular members of the public in England and Wales (including the defendant) from such risk, or(c) to prevent the defendant from committing an offence involving a bladed article.(7) A knife crime prevention order under this section is an order which, for a purpose mentioned in subsection (6)—(a) requires the defendant to do anything described in the order;(b) prohibits the defendant from doing anything described in the order.(8) See also—(a) section (Provisions of knife crime prevention order) (which makes further provision about the requirements and prohibitions which may be imposed by a knife crime prevention order under this section),(b) section (Requirements included in knife crime prevention order etc) (which makes further provision about the inclusion of requirements in a knife crime prevention order under this section), and(c) section (Duration of knife crime prevention order etc) (which makes provision about the duration of a knife crime prevention order under this section).(9) Section 127 of the Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980 (time limits) does not apply to a complaint under this section. (10) In this section—“court”—(a) in the case of a defendant who is under the age of 18, means a magistrates’ court which is a youth court, and(b) in any other case, means a magistrates’ court which is not a youth court;“further education premises” means land used solely for the purposes of—(a) an institution within the further education sector (within the meaning of section 91 of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992), or(b) a 16 to 19 Academy (within the meaning of section 1B of the Academies Act 2010),excluding any land occupied solely as a dwelling by a person employed at the institution or the 16 to 19 Academy;“public place” includes any place to which, at the time in question, the public have or are permitted access, whether on payment or otherwise;“school premises” means any land used for the purposes of a school, excluding any land occupied solely as a dwelling by a person employed at the school; and “school” has the meaning given by section 4 of the Education Act 1996.”Member’s explanatory statement
This Clause and the other amendments of the Minister to insert new Clauses after Clause 31 would make provision for knife crime prevention orders and interim knife crime prevention orders imposing requirements and prohibitions on defendants and subjecting them to certain notification requirements. The proposal is that the Clauses should become Part 5 of the Bill and the Bill should be divided into Parts when it is reprinted.
Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
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My Lords, the new clauses to be inserted into the Bill by Amendments 73A to 73U introduce knife crime prevention orders. These new civil preventative orders will provide the police with the powers they need to more effectively manage people engaged, or at risk of engaging, in knife crime and help steer them away from crime.

As noble Lords in the Committee will agree, knife crime is devastating for victims, their families and for our communities. We must do all that we can to combat this epidemic. The latest police recorded crime figures, published by the Office for National Statistics in January for the year ending September 2018, show that there were 39,818 knife-related offences—an 8% increase compared with the previous year. Noble Lords will not have failed to notice the headlines in the Evening Standard on Monday.

The number of homicides where a knife or sharp instrument was used has increased by 10% in the last year to 276 offences. Of all recorded homicides in the latest data, over four in 10 involved a knife or sharp instrument. That proportion is higher than the previous year when the figure was 37%. Police-recorded offences involving the,

“possession of an article with a blade or point” ,

rose by 18% to 19,644 in the year ending September 2018. That rise is consistent with increases seen over the last five years and is the highest figure since the series began in the year ending March 2009.

The total number of homicides in London in 2018 was 134. The Metropolitan Police had the largest volume increase, accounting for 35% of the total increase. In 2017, there were a total of 116 homicides.

It is vital that the police have the powers they need to prevent knife crime and protect the public from the devastating effects of violent crime on our streets. It is already too late when we prosecute young people for knife crime. The police have asked for a new order which will help them to manage those at risk of knife crime in their communities.

Knife crime prevention orders will provide the police with the powers they need to steer people away from knife crime, where there is evidence that they carry a knife. The orders are aimed at those young people most at risk of engaging in knife crime, people the police call “habitual knife carriers” of any age, and those who have been convicted of a violent offence involving knives. Their simple purpose is to help protect the public, and to help respondents leave a dangerous lifestyle involving knife-related crime. In the case of young people, the police may have intelligence that a young person routinely carries a knife but, for a variety of reasons, they have been unable to charge them with a possession offence. Before risky behaviour escalates, a KCPO could be in place to divert a person away from a life of prolific offending.

People whom the police deem to be habitual knife carriers could also benefit from KCPOs. These are people who may have previous convictions for knife crime, or on whom the police have intelligence that they regularly carry knives. The KCPO would enable the police to manage the risk of future offending. This is the cohort that the police see as their main target for these orders. It is estimated that there are some 3,000 habitual knife carriers across England and Wales. The orders will enable the courts to place restrictions on individuals such as curfews and geographical restrictions, but also requirements such as engaging in positive interventions. KCPOs are not a punishment, but a means to support the individual who is subject to an order to stay away from crime.

It may be helpful if I explain how the order will work. KCPOs are available on application and on conviction. An application for a KCPO can be made by a relevant chief police officer to a magistrates’ court or, in the case of young people, the youth court. A court dealing with an application may make a KCPO only if two conditions are met. The first is that the court is satisfied to the civil standard—on the balance of probabilities—that the defendant had a bladed article, without good reason, in a public place or education premises, on at least two occasions in the preceding two years. The second condition is that the court considers the order necessary to protect the public or prevent the defendant committing an offence. An application can be made with or without notice, but it will be made without notice only on an exceptional basis. If an application is made without notice to the defendant, the court may only make an interim order, which will take effect on service and will last until a full hearing takes place.

A KCPO is also available on conviction following an application from the prosecution, and where two conditions are met. The first condition is that the defendant is convicted of a relevant offence. This means a violent offence, or an offence where a bladed article was used by the defendant or another in the commission of the offence, or the defendant or another had a bladed article with them when the offence was committed. The second condition is, again, that the court considers the order necessary to protect the public or prevent the defendant committing an offence.

A KCPO may require a defendant to do anything described in the order, and/or prohibit the defendant from doing anything described in the order. The KCPO can include any reasonable prohibition or requirement which the court is satisfied is necessary, proportionate and enforceable. A KCPO which imposes a requirement must specify a person who is responsible for supervising compliance with the requirement. For instance, if the requirement is attendance of a knife awareness intervention, the person designated to supervise compliance may be the youth worker providing the intervention.

KCPOs will have a maximum duration of two years and must be reviewed by the courts after 12 months. KCPOs issued to under-18s are expected to be subject to more regular reviews. There are provisions for variation, renewal or discharge of KCPOs on application by the defendant or the police. There are also provisions for appeal against the making of the order. A breach of the order without reasonable excuse is a criminal offence subject to a maximum penalty of two years’ imprisonment.

KCPOs are closing a gap in the law that has hindered the police in taking an active rather than a reactive approach to diverting people away from knife crime and managing the risk of knife crime offending. They provide an opportunity to take a proactive and preventive approach, re-engaging with them at an early stage and helping to protect those most at risk of using knives and, of course, of falling victim to them.

There are other civil orders available, such as gang injunctions and criminal behaviour orders, but not all individuals in the targeted cohort are gang members. Criminal behaviour orders could be used in some cases, but such orders are available only when a court is sentencing a person for an offence. It is important that the police have the right tools for the right situations and can make use of them.

Of course, the police have a range of powers to deal with knife crime, including the existing offence of possessing a bladed article in public without good reason, and stop and search powers under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. However, given the unacceptable scale of knife crime, it is important that the police have a broad sweep of possible powers to use as circumstances dictate. KCPOs will be a valuable addition to the tools available to the police to disrupt harmful behaviours, while avoiding the premature criminalisation of individuals. We expect them to be targeted at a relatively small but high-risk cohort.

This Government are determined to do all that we can to protect the public and keep people safe. This is why we are redoubling our efforts to end this senseless crime. The introduction of KCPOs has been welcomed by the National Police Chiefs Council and the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners. On behalf of the NPCC, Deputy Assistant Commissioner Duncan Bell said:

“The introduction of knife crime prevention orders will provide us with further means to help deter young people from becoming involved in knife possession and knife crime”,


while West Yorkshire’s Labour PCC has said that he fully supports the new knife crime prevention orders.

I commend the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, who is not in his place, for his prescience in tabling Amendment 77, which also calls for the introduction of KCPOs. I hope one of the noble Lords on the Labour Front Bench will agree that we should grasp the opportunity provided by the Bill to legislate now for KCPOs, so that we can do everything in our power to stop the tragic loss of life and serious injury caused by knife crime that is all too evident on our streets. I beg to move.

Lord Paddick Portrait Lord Paddick
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My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for meeting me to discuss these amendments before today’s debate. It will come as no surprise to her that we vehemently oppose them and will object, should she insist on them at this stage.

Noble Lords will recall ASBOs, anti-social behaviour orders, introduced by the then Labour Government in the face of an epidemic of anti-social behaviour. They were opposed for many reasons. They were an order that could be made on the basis of the balance of probabilities against very young children with no previous convictions, yet the breach of one of those orders was a criminal offence with a custodial sentence attached. In effect, the criminal burden of proof—beyond reasonable doubt—was circumvented by making the order subject only to the civil burden of proof, while a breach of the order resulted in a criminal conviction. As a result, hundreds of young people acquired a criminal record through that unfair and unreasonable route. This was rightly seen as disproportionate, and the subsequent coalition Government—in a move championed by the then Home Secretary, Theresa May—removed ASBOs from the statute book.

Other reasons for scrapping ASBOs included their ineffectiveness in curbing anti-social behaviour, the high rate of breach of the conditions of the orders, the difficulty in monitoring compliance and the resources required to ensure their enforcement. In some communities, having an ASBO was seen as a badge of honour, and peers looked up to someone if he had acquired one.

16:30
Young people tend to live less structured, more chaotic lives, which meant that many young people subject to ASBOs accidentally breached the restrictions placed on them, making breach of an ASBO more prevalent among younger people. At the time, there were far more community policy officers, youth workers and people working in youth offending teams, yet monitoring and compliance stretched resources.
Some of the government amendments replicate ASBOs. No conviction is required, the case for a knife crime prevention order is made on the balance of probabilities and breach is a criminal offence with a maximum term of two years’ imprisonment. The orders replicate all the wrongs of ASBOs, which this Government, in coalition with the Liberal Democrats, quite rightly did away with. Will the Minister explain the lack of corporate memory in the Government? ASBOs were in part replaced by anti-social behaviour injunctions, a civil injunction where breach is a contempt of court but the mechanism is a civil matter and there is no criminal record. Someone can be fined or even sent to prison for contempt of court, but young people’s futures are not ruined by a criminal record. Why can we not have knife crime prevention injunctions?
As the Minister explained, some of the proposed knife crime prevention orders are post-conviction—an addition to sentence—orders, similar to criminal behaviour orders, which were in part a replacement for ASBOs. A post-conviction order is imposed by the court in addition to sentence or criminal sanction, such as a fine. The important distinction is that the defendant already has a criminal record, having just been convicted of a criminal offence. We do not object in principle to this type of order, as we do to orders made in the absence of conviction on the balance of probabilities. However, there remain concerns about the kind of restrictions that can be imposed, the high likelihood of young offenders accidentally breaching the orders because young people make more mistakes, the lack of resources to provide positive activity that might be mandated for them to engage in, the lack of youth workers, the lack of resources to monitor and enforce the orders, the lack of community police officers and the lack of resources in youth offending teams, which have a statutory role to play in managing these orders. Knife crime prevention orders must specify a person who is to be responsible for supervising compliance with the requirement. The Minister gave as an example a youth worker, but presumably it could be a police officer. The question then has to be about where the resources are going to come from.
Among the restrictions that can applied in a knife crime prevention order is notifying the police within three days if the subject,
“uses a name which has not previously been notified”.
Let us imagine that a 14 year-old who is subject to an order is stopped by the police. He panics and gives a false name and does not confess to the police within three days that he has given a false name. He would be liable to two years’ imprisonment for breaching the order. Or let us imagine that he sees the officer the next day and says, “Actually, that’s the name I’m using now, and I haven’t told you before”, but the officer forgets to update the records. In the Government’s proposals, a defendant can give,
“a notification … by … giving an oral notification to a police officer”.
Seriously? Or let us imagine that a 13-year-old is sent to stay with a relative during the summer holidays, as his parents work full time and they forget to tell the police. He would be liable to two years’ imprisonment for breaching the order.
The order can require the defendant to be in a particular place between particular times to participate in particular activities. What happens if he is ordered to play football but does not want to? Two years in prison? It can prohibit the defendant from being in a particular place, being with particular people, participating in particular activities, using particular articles or having them with him. What happens if the people who he is banned from associating with follow him around? Two years in prison? These could be young teenagers, 12 year-olds even. This is a route to criminalising scores of young people.
The orders are complex—they take up 17 pages of amendments—yet the Government have tabled them in Grand Committee, after the Bill has passed through the Commons and where we cannot divide. This is not the way that we should be dealing with highly contentious legislation that the other place has not had any opportunity to debate or comment on.
The Magistrates Association has now commented on knife crime prevention orders. It says:
“We do not believe there is a clearly defined gap in existing police and court powers currently used to respond to possession of knives that would show that these orders are needed. It is unclear what situations these orders would be expected to cover, where out of court disposals, Criminal Behaviour Orders or court sentences are not currently available. Neither youth nor adult magistrates have called for additional powers, and especially in relation to Youth Court, courts already have numerous approaches that can be used in response to knife crime. We are also concerned about how these proposals will be implemented and used in practice”.
The noble Baroness, Lady Lawrence of Clarendon, who lost her son, Stephen Lawrence, to knife crime, told the Home Affairs Select Committee only yesterday that she opposes these orders. If the Government will not listen to me, perhaps they should listen to her.
We need a long and detailed look at these amendments. I appreciate that the police may have asked for knife crime prevention orders and there may be a need for some form of order, but not these, with this scope. I ask the Minister to withdraw the amendments at this stage to allow further discussion.
Lord Ramsbotham Portrait Lord Ramsbotham (CB)
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My Lords, I entirely understand why the Government feel that they have an obligation to take meaningful and effective steps to protect the public from those who use offensive weapons. Even before today’s letter in the Times, though, I already had five reasons for being extremely concerned about their proposal to introduce knife crime prevention orders, as set out in Amendments 73A to 73U. Like the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, I am concerned that the proposal should have been rushed through at such a late stage in the passage of the Bill, meaning that the proposed orders were not subject to scrutiny in the other place.

I am interested that all my reasons are shared by the Magistrates Association. First, there is no evidence that orders like these are effective at tackling harmful behaviour or will address the root causes of knife carrying, which, as many noble Lords have said at various stages during the passage of the Bill, is a symptom of wider social issues. Secondly, the orders can be imposed, on the balance of probability rather than a criminal standard of proof, on children as young as 12, which will result in the criminalisation of people who have not committed a criminal offence. Thirdly, I share the belief of the Prison Reform Trust and the Standing Committee for Youth Justice that a criminal sanction of up to two years in prison is a disproportionate sanction for a breach of a civil order. I also question the lack of any distinction between the penalty for breach by a child and by an adult, believing that a sentence of imprisonment for breach is not appropriate for children.

Fourthly, there is no detail about how much the proposed orders will cost or how they are to be resourced. Neither is there an explanation of how the very wide-ranging requirements that will be placed on individuals made subject to orders are linked to offences with bladed articles, or how courts could know what requirements are going to be effective in reducing the risk of knife crime. The already inadequate impact assessment contains no details of cost, nor has the cost of the likely increase in custody numbers due to order breaches been factored in. The Police Federation of England and Wales has questioned the capacity of the police to enforce the orders, given the impact of cuts to police budgets and resources. Its chair commented:

“How the Home Secretary thinks we have the officers available to monitor teenagers’ social media use, or check that they are at home at 10 pm, when we are struggling to answer 999 calls, is beyond me”.


Fifthly, the proposed orders seem to be the very antithesis of the public health approach to the problem—the essence of the serious violence strategy advocated by Ministers both in this House and in the other place during the passage of the Bill. Furthermore, the orders are bound to increase the already alarmingly disproportionate outcomes for black and ethnic minority young people, which many noble Lords mentioned in connection with their relationship with the criminal justice system. If we could vote in Grand Committee, I would certainly vote against the amendments and I look forward to doing so on Report.

Lord Hogan-Howe Portrait Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)
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My Lords, I support the amendment although I note that the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, in objecting to it, said that he would support some form of order if not this particular one, which seems in principle to suggest that something needs to be done. My reasons for supporting it are the ones laid out by the Minister. First, there is clearly a problem. Even last night, a young man was murdered in London— a 19 year-old—and it continues to be a problem. The problem has not gone away.

I do not have the same recollection of ASBOs as the noble Lord. They were a response to a moral panic. There was an issue about anti-social behaviour and for a time they provided a solution. I do not think that they were such a grave intervention in young people’s lives, unless they chose to ignore the civil order that had been made by the courts. They were not criminalised by the order that gave them the ASBO, nor will this knife crime prevention order criminalise them. They will be criminalised only if they breach the order. That is an important distinction. It is then up to the court, which is unlikely always to award two years’ imprisonment. There is no minimum sentence so I believe it is up to the judge to decide in each case what to award. But as part of changing the culture it is necessary.

We have sadly seen through various generations that young men in particular have used different types of weapons. The 1953 Act, for those who remember, was intended to address Teddy boys and greasers. It is a sad reality that gangs have used weapons and sometimes we have to change the law to change that culture.

The point about resources was a fair challenge— I have only just recently made the point that the police could certainly do with far more—but the police have asked for this measure. I checked before making my comments and certainly, the Metropolitan Police feel that they could police these things. Given the numbers involved and the seriousness of the offence, they think it is manageable. Of course, nobody would deny that it is an extra burden. But if the numbers are true—3,000 people in the UK, broadly—not all of them will get these orders and clearly not all of them will breach them so the measure is not entirely unmanageable.

The point made by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, about age was fair. Nobody wants to criminalise very young people, but the sad reality is that people as young as 12 are joining gangs and they are attracted by the drugs and money that go with it. I am not sure that they make a conscious, adult, mature decision to begin that process, but it is true that they can be threatening and that should be considered. In that context, I am trying to make sure that the orders are effective, rather than claiming that they are not necessary

A knife crime protection order is a non-conviction order for someone who is found carrying a bladed item on two occasions during the relevant period. What concerns me is that they could have been carrying an offensive weapon such as acid on one occasion, which presumably contributes to this concern that they may be involved in violence. If this order is intended to reduce that risk, that should be taken into account. I know why this provision tries to keep things simple—it is a bladed item, and we are all worried about knives. Sadly, they are not the only offensive weapons that young people use.

16:45
On the prohibitions and requirements granted by this order, a notable exception is the power to search. At the moment, police search powers are limited by Section 1, which is a conditional power—there has to be a reason—or Section 60, which applies to a geographical area, in which case the police can search without cause. It seems odd that in this case, where someone has shown a predilection for carrying a knife—and given that the very reason for providing this order is to reduce serious violence—the police are not given an unconditional power to search. They still have to fall back on their Section 1 power, even though the person in question has been to a court, an order has been made and they have accepted that they are a risk or a threat. It seems odd that there is no search power linked to that. There is also the question whether certain minorities may feel challenged by this measure. The court has decided that that is a condition of the order. We should at least consider whether that should be available; you may decide it is not a mandatory issue.
My other points are relatively minor, but interesting. Subsection (7), introduced by Amendment 73F, sets out clearly when these orders may be given—a sentence of a court or a conditional discharge. What is omitted is breach of the peace. I am a bit obsessed by breach of the peace, an old common-law power which is still around. A breach of the peace usually indicates that there has been a threat of or actual violence. I wonder whether that might be considered as this amendment goes through.
Subsection (7), introduced by Amendment 73K, addresses when these orders start, and specifically whether someone has been sentenced to imprisonment, is serving a period of imprisonment or is on remand. Broadly, they start when the person is released. It does not refer to cases where someone is released on day or weekend release; presumably, they would not be covered. I realise this is not straightforward but it should be thought about, because some releases can be longer as someone prepares for re-entering society. Presumably, when they are eventually released, this order will apply, so there would be no lesser risk during an interim release.
Where an order lasts for one year or more, an annual review is mandated, and everyone involved will have to go back to court to make that review. In statute, that is an unnecessary burden. The person the order applies to may make that application—there is nothing to stop them at any point within the six months. As the process is annual, everyone will have to start getting ready for it—including the police and the youth offending teams—around nine months in, and I am not sure it is necessary. It is a bureaucratic burden, and the issue can be addressed through the accused’s right to exercise their power to review their case.
The police continue to use stop and search. There are consequences to it which none of us like, but it is a human process. We have not invested in the technology that would help the police find knives without needing to ask people whether they have one, to check their behaviour, or to find out whether they have carried knives before. Technology is getting better, but one thing that worries me is that the scientific department, CAST, which used to help the Home Office create this type of solution, has been moved to the Ministry of Defence. I do not understand why, given that there is DSTL, and I worry that priorities for law enforcement may drop down the list. I have not heard any clarity on what technological solutions may help officers and others intervene where someone is carrying any kind of weapon other than a simple knife arch. We have had those for years and although they are not effective in mass areas, there is now cleverer software indicating where officers should target their search. I encourage the Government to look again at where those resources are being prioritised.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Portrait Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
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My Lords, I rise to speak against this group of amendments. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, said that he supported the amendments but then went through a number of reasonable concerns. That shows that the process has not been consulted on adequately; indeed, it has been consulted on only with police forces directly and not on a wider scale with the large community of people concerned about youth crime.

Previous speakers have made the same point as the many people who have approached me, and other noble Lords, no doubt, about the possible unwanted effect—some people say that it is a certain unwanted effect—of criminalising young children who breach the order. Of course, many other forms of both statutory and non-statutory intervention are available to the courts, the police and YOTs.

I speak as a London youth magistrate who regularly sits at Highbury Corner Youth Court. I see the effects of knife crime very regularly. I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Sater—she is a friend but I will refer to her as “the noble Baroness” for today’s purposes—who sits in the same court as me. I know that she has true expertise in this matter. It would be easy for me to give a long, bloodcurdling list of the sort of offences I have had to consider in Highbury but I will make two simple points.

First, in the youth court, we deal with children. The court’s primary purpose is to prevent reoffending. The offenders are still children, even when they are well over six foot tall and have committed knife offences. Secondly, a large proportion of the young knife offenders I see are also victims on multiple occasions. They are frightened, as are their families. In court, they tell me that they carry knives for self-protection. They are more frightened of being attacked with a knife than they are of the possible consequences of a court intervention of one sort or another. I understand that the Bill’s purpose is to be preventive in order to break this deadly cycle of knife offences.

As I am sure most Members of the Committee have done, I read the Lammy report. Its central theme was a breakdown in trust, particularly between the BAME community and the police. I want to make a slightly different observation to that made by David Lammy. My observation of young people is that they tell adults when they feel in danger. Sometimes, but not often, they tell their parents. They tell youth workers, YOT officers and social workers. They tell people they come across in the street. If they are in school, they may tell teachers. In my experience, they even tell police officers because the officers are often—always, in fact—embedded in YOTs and tend to be very good at building good relationships with the young people who come into the YOT offices. Those officers are told when young people feel vulnerable.

This is a political forum, so it is fair to make the party-political point that the number of police officers, YOT officers, youth workers and street workers has been cut. Fewer of them are available to young people in their day-to-day lives. It is fair to say that the party opposite bears responsibility for that reduction in support for young people in Britain.

I have three questions for the Minister. In fact, she answered the first in her opening remarks, so I understand that these orders are appealable and reviewable. Secondly, are there any identifiable benefits of this order over the multitude of other orders available to us? There is no shortage of legislation. Thirdly, if this order got on to the statute book, would it be appropriate for it to be applied for after a failed criminal prosecution? We do this in other scenarios. If a domestic abuse prosecution fails, the CPS often applies for a restraining order, often against the man, and often that order is put in place. Is it possible—as far as I know, nothing prevents it—to apply these orders when there is a failed criminal prosecution?

I have received the same briefings as other noble Lords, but I thought that the one that summed up the position most succinctly and persuasively was that from the Association of YOT Managers, which made two points. First, these orders could fast-track children into having a criminal record—it will not necessarily be a sentence of two years, but a breach of the civil order will still lead to a criminal record. Secondly—all the briefing that I received says this—there may well be disproportionate effects on BAME youngsters.

Lord Bishop of Newcastle Portrait The Lord Bishop of Newcastle
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Before becoming Bishop of Newcastle, I was an archdeacon in south-east London. In my archdeaconry, sadly, was Eltham, where Stephen Lawrence died. I do not, therefore, underestimate the sheer heartbreak and devastation of knife crime, particularly when young people are involved. This crime is growing and growing. I have sat with families whose children have been victims of knife crime. I have officiated at a funeral where that has been the case. The circles of devastation and heartbreak just go on and on. I do not underestimate the seriousness of this problem; nevertheless, I object to this amendment and hope that it will be withdrawn, so that there is more time to reflect on it.

I wish to make two points. First, a legal process that treats children and adults in exactly the same way cannot be right. We have learned a lot as we have come to see how we were blind to what was happening in cases of the sexual exploitation of children. The girls who were involved—it is not always girls, but it often is—were just seen as bad girls, who had absconded from care and were drinking and taking drugs. These children were not seen as children in desperate need of our protection and were not seen as victims. I think about the situation in which a child of 12 is carrying a knife, probably because they are terrified, and then I look at the purpose of this measure, which is to protect the general public. Of course we need to protect the general public, but we, the general public, have a duty of care to the children in our society. We owe a duty to protect some of the children who might be caught by this legislation. We need to see what is happening when young teenagers are in this situation, where they are being seen as perpetrators but they are, as has been said, at least as much victims. I hope that we will look at the age-blind element of this proposal, as it cannot be right.

My second point is more general, although it still applies to children more than to adults. Up in the north-east, I have been seriously engaged in meeting governors and chaplains in our local prisons— HMP Durham, HMP Northumberland and HMP Low Newton, the women’s prison. One thing that I have been told again and again is that sentences under 12 months are disruptive to people’s lives in a completely dreadful way but serve no rehabilitative purpose. All the evidence shows that to be the case. The proposed sentences go up to two years, but that maximum may not often be applied and, as I said, a sentence of 12 months or less has no positive effect. If that is true for adults, it is even truer for young people. I hope that the sentencing structure can also be looked at again.

17:00
Baroness Newlove Portrait Baroness Newlove (Con)
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My Lords, I support the amendments from the Government, because we have to send a message out there for young people. While I respect all noble Lords who talk about criminalising young people, I stand with several hats on here. I have worked with young people in prisons and with a YOT, and have gone around to find out evidence. The main thing that worries me in all this is that we can put prevention orders up—we have to send a message; we owe that to the rest of society, who do not feel safe—but I want to prevent the young people I have spoken about having to carry a knife to feel safe. We need to stop them early, saying that it is not really right for them. Some young people in gangs have said they do not want to do it but have no choice.

There are several messages here about young children. I have three young daughters who saw their father murdered by hands and feet; they have suffered and could have gone down the criminal route. It would have been justified to put them in that box and to say that there is a reason why they do it. It is the same for a knife. These young people will carry knives to protect themselves, but do not want to. So we have to have something there—a message for communities and young children to feel safe. I am very grateful for the Centre for Social Justice briefing on this. It welcomes the process of the order, but is concerned about the mechanisms of how it will be carried out.

The whole point here is protecting the child. We are hearing much about criminalising a child but not about looking after the child’s welfare. I ask my noble friend the Minister, as did the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, whether we could make it a weapon-neutral offence that sends a message to all those carrying blades, knives and everything. Making it specific to a knife or blade does not really have the effect we want. We need to send a generalised message to help protect young people. I am concerned that we are not standing up here and protecting young people in the first place. We are looking at criminalising young people when they have been caught with something on them. We have to protect the people I have been speaking to, because they are really scared to come out of the school grounds. They go home to protect themselves. We are not looking at that niche of young children.

Baroness Meacher Portrait Baroness Meacher (CB)
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My Lords, I support many of the comments made by other noble Lords—the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham and in particular the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle. There are many problems with these prevention orders. We may need orders of some sort, but surely not these. I hope we have a really serious discussion about how to protect children. In subsection (5) of the proposed new clause in Amendment 73A, the reasons accepted as good reasons for carrying a knife do not include a fear of harm. Yet, as other noble Lords have said, this is probably the most common reason. I regard it as utterly right and proper; we do not want kids carrying knives, but if you are terrified of being attacked you should not be criminalised for carrying a knife in your pocket to protect yourself. I hope that before Report the Minister will give serious thought to including at least that—that is just one tiny bit—in the reasons accepted as good reasons.

A second problem is that, according to subsection (1) of the proposed new clause in Amendment 73C:

“An application for a knife crime prevention order … may be made without the applicant giving notice to the defendant”.


The police can impose an interim knife crime prevention order, and the same requirements may be made under that interim order as under a full knife crime prevention order. Yet the defendant does not even know this is happening and has not put their side of the story or explained, for example, that they were carrying the knife only because they were petrified of the three boys who live down the road who were trying to get them involved in a gang. What is going on? I am terribly worried about that bit of it.

Others have mentioned the standard of proof— the balance of probability—when these kids go into criminality. Surely that cannot be right. However, there are many more general concerns about the imposition of yet more criminal deterrents on children as young as 12. I have read some briefings carefully and I want to refer to the one from the Children’s Society. According to its Good Childhood Report 2017, an estimated 950,000 children aged between 10 and 17 had experienced crime. No wonder crime is often cited as the reason children carry weapons. This problem is rife and of course we all want something done about it, but are we really tackling it in the right way here? I do not think so.

We know that for two decades the Government have attempted to deter violent crime and anti-social behaviour through the imposition of criminal and punitive civil deterrents. So far, such deterrents have not had a substantial impact on reducing the level of youth crime and youth violence, but that is what we all want—we certainly do not want knife crime. Of course we want violence to be reduced, but these approaches have been shown not to work. As we know, the level of knife crime has risen sharply. There is a body of evidence to show that criminalised interventions do not lower crime rates. I referred in an earlier debate to the meeting in which we listened to Neil Woods. After years of working as an undercover officer and catching people involved in criminal gangs and so on, he realised that he was making not a jot of difference to criminality and violence. He threw it all up and has now written books on the subject. He knows that he has not made any difference, having put his whole life on the line and having been in considerable danger for many years. We need to listen to people like him.

Does the Minister accept that the Home Office needs to make targeting the adults who coerce, control and threaten these kids a much greater priority? Surely Ministers should not target these children with these orders. It just does not feel right and, to be perfectly frank, I do not understand it. Therefore, can we amend these proposed new clauses before Report to ensure that, if we are to have prevention orders—and I think that we probably need them—they focus on positive inputs for children under the age of 18 with the provision of support, treatment in the case of kids addicted to alcohol or drugs, educational guidance and help to secure the safety of the child.

When a child is considered for an order, surely they should be referred to children’s social care for an assessment under the Children Act 1989 or to the national referral mechanism as appropriate. If the child is found to be at risk of exploitation, the police response surely needs to be entirely different from that envisaged in these amendments. I am not saying that there should not be a response but it should be different. As I said in relation to another amendment, we know that short-term prison sentences have very poor results in terms of reoffending. Why would we have more of them? In conclusion, I hope that the Minister will be willing to discuss how the emphasis of the amendments can be shifted from punitive, unsuccessful, short-term incarceration to something that will work. We have quite a lot of knowledge about what might work.

It is difficult to debate these proposals without reference to the huge cuts to youth services in this country. I know that it could be said that this is a political point but I do not mean it to be that at all. It is pretty desperate when £400 million is taken off those services at a time when we want these children to be referred to them for support, and £51 million has been put into the Serious Violence Strategy. That is one-eighth of the cuts—it is a peanut; it is nothing. Local authorities are facing a deficit in their budgets for children’s and young people’s services of £3 billion over the next five years. It seems that spending on police, courts and prisons is fine but spending on real prevention and turning young people around is something that we can dispense with. I say that because it is obvious that we should put money there rather than elsewhere. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Lord Hogan-Howe Portrait Lord Hogan-Howe
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, said that because I had made a suggestion about how the amendment might be improved, it indicated a lack of consultation. In fact, one of the amendments was a police proposal which has not found its way into the Bill, so I am re-presenting it. It was not that it not been asked for or shared; for whatever reason, it was not there, which I found odd.

More fundamentally, we have to keep an eye on what the Bill is trying to do. Good parents of young people will either try to stop them mixing with the wrong people or stop them going to certain places where they would get into harm or cause it. That is broadly what the Bill tries to do where a parent cannot or will not: it tries to restrict where people can meet and whom they meet if they are causing a problem.

The right reverend Prelate said that she hoped the law would acknowledge the difference in age. The sad reality is that the criminal law makes no distinction about age other than by criminal responsibility. Murder is murder. Whether you are 16 or 33, it is murder. From 14 onwards, it is absolute liability; from 10 to 14, one has to prove a certain intent. We have to accept that that is true. The thing that concerns me in some of the contributions is that we seem almost to be giving a defence to someone who is terrified—which I accept—that it is therefore okay to carry a knife. That means that the offensive weapon law is useless. I understand that it is a sincere belief—I do not challenge that—but that is what everyone says. Sometimes it is true, and sometimes they are the aggressor. However, even if it is true, unless we are going to agree to people carrying guns and any offensive weapon justified by their fear about defending themselves, it is a real difficulty. It may be something on sentencing, or it may be that you can show reasonable cause—I do not think you can ever show reasonable cause for carrying an offensive weapon—the definition of an offensive weapon is something intended, made or adapted to hurt people. It is important that we keep an eye on that because if we put a defence of that type in, it will be abused.

Baroness Meacher Portrait Baroness Meacher
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The noble Lord suggests that some of us are saying, “It’s okay to carry a knife”. I want to make it clear that I am not saying that. I have a feeling that noble Lords around us are not saying it either. It is not okay for kids to carry knives. The only issue is what we do to help them not to have to carry a knife.

Lord Elton Portrait Lord Elton
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If I may go back to the noble Baroness’s speech, I am drawn to my feet simply to endorse her view of the inappropriateness of a short prison sentence and, with juveniles, of any prison sentence. For a time, I was Minister responsible for the welfare of young people, other than their health, at the DHSS, which simply meant juvenile offenders in secure accommodation and keeping them out of it. I then had three years being responsible for prisons in the Home Office. I therefore dedicated the next chunk of my life to stopping young people going to prison. You cannot do it when they are into crime; you have to do it before. You have to see that they are not frightened. They must feel safe at home, at school and on the streets, and you must see that they are not bored. The two spurs are fear—“To protect myself I must be armed”—and, “What on earth am I going to do? Let’s go and make trouble. Let’s take a car that does not belong to us and drive it very, very fast around Blackbird Leys in Oxford”. It is the buzz they have to get. We have to provide that by means other than punitive, by pre-emptive means before the event. We have to engage them. When they are on the edge of the event, we have to try even harder. One good way is to find a group of young adults with enthusiasm for almost anything, but preferably a team sport or team activity; for example, white-water rafting, jazz playing, football, canoeing or rock climbing, give them the small amount of money necessary to set up a group to do that and the bored young and the frightened young will come there in clusters. When we did that when I was in what one might call civilian life, the people concerned learned to get £5 of funding from elsewhere for every pound that my people were able to give them.

What I am trying to preach here is outside the terms of this Bill, and I apologise for that, but we are putting the money, as the noble Baroness says, in the wrong place, too late. If only we had enough cash to do a sensible job for our young people. Many of them have no male adult role model, and it is almost impossible to get male teachers into primary education now because the dangers of being sussed as having improper relations with pupils are so great. It is a risk to cuddle a child if they fall and hurt themselves, and we have the new phenomenon of mobile phones which are distracting young adults so that they do not pay attention to children at all. All of that has got to be remedied by the community acting together to give young people things to do which excite them, in safe places with secure adult supervision. That cannot go into this Bill, but I hope nothing which puts juveniles in danger of short prison sentences will go into this Bill, because that is wholly counterproductive.

17:15
Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas
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My Lords, I share many noble Lords’ concerns about the way in which these clauses have been drafted. I hope we will get a decent opportunity to review them, and chew through them, in a way which would have been better afforded if these amendments had been laid earlier. I received scant briefing, but they need serious attention and application of time to find out how to make this idea work.

I will raise a few detailed points. If under subsection (5) of the new clause inserted by Amendment 73A we are to expand on the definition of good reason, we are opening ourselves up to dangers, as we always do when we start doing these sorts of things. In paragraph (a) of subsection (5) we ought to say “in work”, because a lot of uses are in work and not “at work”. We also ought to include those reasonable uses of a bladed article which are associated with hobbies. If you are a carver, a fisherman, a sailor, let alone someone doing anything with ropes, you are going to need a knife. That that is excluded from paragraph (a) somehow downgrades those reasons for possessing a knife. We should be satisfied with the old test of good reason. Paragraph (a) introduces the danger that a lot of good reasons for having a knife are going to be downgraded.

The scope of the order is very wide, and we should be conscious that similar orders are being used quite actively. Last month, we passed a nine-month jail sentence on a rap group for singing a song in contravention of an order, so you do not have to do much to get a criminal record under these sorts of orders. Therefore, we ought to be conscious of how this lot apply to children, particularly the disruption to their already chaotic lives that can be caused by what we order them to do or not to do and the way that interferes with their education, or the beginning of their work. Indeed, who is allowed to know that they have one of these orders, and what is a school supposed to do if is knows that one of its children has one of these orders? That children’s aspect needs to be more clearly worked out.

I entirely agree with the Government’s sentiments in wanting to do something effective. As always, it is the role of this House to make sure that what is proposed is effective, and to not let the Government get away with it if it is not.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark
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My Lords, this has been an excellent debate. As I was sitting here listening to so many excellent and knowledgeable speakers, I thought that this debate should have been in the Chamber, but that is for another day. I fully accept that knife crime prevention orders put forward by the Government today are, as the noble Baroness says, to deal with habitual carriers of knives. In that sense, we can support them in principle but there need to be some changes.

I am also clear that the present Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, as well as the previous commissioner and the Mayor of London, support the idea of a prevention order as it could be a valuable tool in dealing with the epidemic of knife crime. It is always heart-breaking to see families destroyed when they have lost a loved one, but of course the perpetrator’s life is destroyed as well. There is a huge issue with young people carrying knives and so on. I have met one or two gang members; they can be very challenging individuals to meet. Some of the younger ones are certainly very frightened.

I was on the Wyndham estate some time ago, near where I went to school, to meet some of these young people and they offered me an escort off the estate. I said, “It’s all right, I don’t need an escort—I’ve lived round here”. I was fine. I walked off with no problem at all because I am a fairly big 56 year-old bloke; I am not a 15 or 16 year-old, and I am not black. If I had walked out of there in other circumstances, I would have had a problem getting to the bus stop but, in my situation, there was no problem at all. The young people thought that I would not be safe walking on the estate, which was not the case.

The noble Lords, Lord Paddick and Lord Ramsbotham, made the point, as I think other noble Lords did, that it is a shame the way these amendments have arrived in this House. They have been tabled in Grand Committee and, as has been said, have not gone through the procedures in the House of Commons. My understanding of that House is that if these provisions had been in the Bill from the start there would have been an evidence session in the Commons with experts coming in to look at them. That has been lost and cannot happen now, which is a shame. I support the idea that they have come into the Bill very late. They were announced to the media, and here we are in Grand Committee, not the main Chamber. We will come back to them, or something like them, on Report. Having that at the end of the passage of the Bill is regrettable.

That is why we have tabled Amendment 77 in this group, which was put forward by my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe. It attempts to insert a new clause which would require the Government within three months of the Bill becoming an Act to publish a draft Bill to bring in knife crime prevention orders. It would mean there would have to be a Bill, which I hope would start in the Commons so that it could have evidence sessions. As it would be a draft Bill, even before that there would be a Joint Committee of both Houses to look at the stuff in detail. We want to get this right. On each side of the House, we can give examples of where we have passed measures and have got them right or wrong, but most of the things that were done wrong were done in haste. If we want to sort out an issue, we all charge off and do something, and months or years later, we find that we did not quite get it right. Amendment 77 in my noble friend’s name would ensure that we could do that and look at it in detail.

I am a big fan of draft Bills. When my noble kinsman Lady Kennedy of Cradley—I suppose I should refer to her as that—was on the Committee on the draft Modern Slavery Bill, I saw the work that she and other Members did. I remember the phone calls from the Home Office when the Minister talked to her—it was Karen Bradley—and a lot of detailed work went on to get that Bill right. I think we all accept that it is very good legislation. There were one or two issues—the noble Lord, Lord McColl, made efforts to improve some of the aftercare—but generally it is very good legislation. I would contrast that, as I often do, with the Housing and Planning Act, which is terrible legislation done on the back of a fag packet. It is absolute rubbish and most of the Government have quietly forgotten about it. It has been pushed to one side, so that no one ever mentions it again. I am a big fan of draft legislation, especially when it concerns sorting big issues out. The intention behind the amendment from my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe is to do that.

This might seem a bit over the top, but we have had reports of these poor people being killed and their families destroyed. Why is COBRA not meeting to discuss this? We have COBRA meetings when we have a flood or a problem with the trains. This is about young people dying, so why is the Prime Minister or the Home Secretary not convening COBRA and getting the right people in the room to ask them, “What’s going on here?”

There is an issue about youth workers, social workers and cuts to services because if we are going to have penalties to deal with the issue we need to deal with the causes as well. Why is COBRA not meeting? People are losing their lives, so I want a response on that. As I said, these are very important issues.

The noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, made some excellent points as did my noble friend Lord Ponsonby with his experience as a magistrate in youth courts. He has experience of dealing with these people when they get to court. A lot of them have form. That is an important point. The right reverend Prelate also made some good points about the work that she has done in Newcastle and in south-east London. I used to go to a youth club—the Crossed Swords youth club—which was run by St Paul’s, a Church of England church. Reverend Shaw used to run it. I am a Catholic, but I used to go there because it was a very good club. All the kids from the estate went there. It is important that we have those things. In many parts the country they have disappeared. Whether voluntary or local authority, they have all been lost, and the people are lost there. We need to get those things right.

The shame with this Bill is that it seeks to deal with the punishment of offenders but does not address any of the causes, which is one of the losses in this Bill. Generally speaking, I am not against the orders. They need to be looked at, refined and changed but in principle I am not against them. Noble Lords made valuable points and I hope that the Minister will take them on board.

Lord Paddick Portrait Lord Paddick
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My Lords, before the Minister responds, I did not address Amendment 77 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, which we totally support. I did not want to stifle the debate, but it might be helpful for the Committee to be aware of the advice that I have been given, which is that if the Government insist on moving these amendments in Grand Committee and there is an objection to that taking place, the amendments will be lost and cannot be brought back on Report. I am sure that the Minister will bear that in mind in her response.

Earl of Caithness Portrait The Earl of Caithness (Con)
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My Lords, following what the noble Lord just said, I wonder whether my noble friend would consider this. If the amendment is likely to be defeated, she could withdraw it and return to Committee as the first part of Report—I remember doing that with a Home Office Bill—so that given the concerns around the Committee, we could have a proper Committee stage and then very soon after that, come back on Report. In Committee, we can talk twice, and that should give the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, a chance to put down something constructive rather than the constant destructive arguments.

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
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My Lords, I have not found the comments destructive, although I thank my noble friend for the points that he made. I will not press the government amendments today. I take on board completely the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, about the timing of the amendments. We will bring the amendments back on Report when again we will have a full chance to discuss them. The practice of noble Lords speaking only once on Report has fallen slightly by the wayside because noble Lords seem to speak several times in Committee and on Report.

To sum up today’s debate, we all seek the same end, but the means by which we would get there differ. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, at the outset for clarifying a number of points that I did not know the answer to. He has saved me having to write to the Committee. I also thank my noble friend Lady Newlove for the very real-life experience with which she speaks and which we never fail to be moved by.

It is clear from the debate that some of the support for KCPOs is qualified. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick—and the theme was carried on by other noble Lords—said that KCPOs seek to criminalise children. As the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, said, their aim is quite the reverse. They are to prevent young people getting into criminality.

Lord Paddick Portrait Lord Paddick
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I never suggested that the aim of the orders is to criminalise young people. I said that young people being criminalised is the inevitable outcome of the orders.

17:30
Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My words were that the noble Lord said the orders risk criminalising children, rather than having the aim of criminalising children. The aim is to prevent that. As the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle said, young people are often the victims. Other noble Lords made the same point. We have a Catch-22 situation where they are both victims and perpetrators.

The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, questioned the benefits of KCPOs, given his experience. Their aim is to have a preventive effect. Far from fast-tracking young people into a criminal record, the aim is quite the reverse. The orders are an alternative to prosecution. The imposition of restrictions aims to divert young people away from the criminal justice system. Of course, where a defendant is found not guilty of a violent offence, the option to give a KCPO remains open to the police, further keeping the young person out of the criminal justice system.

The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, asked a very good question: what about the adults? Adults can be part and parcel of the problem, but can also be part of the solution. She is absolutely right that we must not forget the role of adults in all this.

At the outset, I reiterate that KCPOs are not punitive in nature. They are an additional tool for the police to help steer those subject to the orders away from knife crime. They are aimed at young people at risk of engaging in knife crime, at habitual knife carriers of any age and at those who have been convicted of a violent or knife-related offence. The Government are very concerned by the increase in knife crime, as other noble Lords have articulated. We are determined to do all we can to address it. We have set out a comprehensive programme of action in our Serious Violence Strategy to tackle knife crime and prevent young people being drawn into crime and violence, but we know that we need to do more. That is why we listened when the police—those on the front line of such activity, who are best-placed to know the nature of the problem and the profile of the people who carry knives—told us that they need additional powers to deal more effectively with people being drawn into knife crime.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, talked about the approach that the police might take when responding to a breach of a KCPO. Clearly, it would be for the police to decide what action to take where such a breach occurs. Similarly, it would be for the CPS to consider whether there is enough evidence against the defendant for a realistic prospect of conviction and whether it is in the public interest to prosecute them. The public interest will likely vary from case to case, taking into account factors such as the seriousness of the offence, the harm caused and the proportionality of prosecution in response. It has never been the rule that a prosecution will automatically take place where the evidential test is met, so prosecutors may advise on or authorise out-of-court disposals as an alternative to prosecution, which is not necessarily the end result. In addition, a person commits an offence and can be convicted only if a breach occurs without reasonable excuse. The maximum sentence is two years’ imprisonment. It would be for the courts to determine the appropriate sentence in the usual way in any given case, so two years is not necessarily the end result and a community sentence is an option, too.

Unfortunately, as we have seen from the press so often recently, an increasing number of young people carry knives. Some are as young as eight. Many come to the attention of the police after teachers or youth workers have already tried to deal with the problem without reporting the incident to the police, for fear that a young person would be criminalised. However, as we have all said today, by the time that young person is prosecuted it is too late. Furthermore, I am sure noble Lords will agree that prosecution of young children is not always the most appropriate response if they are found with a knife. We have had those discussions today. KCPOs will enable the police and others to address the underlying issues and steer those young people away from knife crime through positive interventions.

The amendments contain important safeguards to ensure that KCPOs are not used inappropriately against young people under 18. In particular, the amendments require the police to consult the relevant youth offending team before an order is made. Once made, an order must be reviewed by the courts after 12 months. The noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, asked why 12 months was put in place. That is as a safeguard to ensure that a review is carried out. We fully expect the statutory guidance to provide for more regular reviews where a KCPO is issued to a person under the age of 18.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked why on orders made on application we have not adopted the approach applied to anti-social behaviour injunctions, where a breach is dealt with as a contempt of court rather than a criminal offence. In developing the KCPO, we considered that approach, but it is important to remember that we are dealing with individuals at risk of engaging in serious criminality, not simply those involved in anti-social behaviour, as debilitating as that can be for victims and communities. KCPOs will be used for individuals with a history of carrying a knife. Many will be habitual knife carriers, and we are clear that these orders will not be effective if those subject to a KCPO do not see that breaching the order would have serious consequences. They must include the possibility, at least, of a criminal prosecution and a custodial sentence on conviction. Other civil orders of this kind adopt the same approach, including sexual risk orders and serious crime prevention orders.

I am indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, for his invaluable contribution, which highlighted the operational need for these new orders. The noble Lord made a couple of very interesting suggestions: first, that the scope of KCPOs be extended to help tackle gun crime and the use of corrosives, and, secondly, on the use of electronic monitoring. Given the prevalence of knife crime, it is right that it should be the initial focus of the new orders but as we evaluate their effectiveness over time, we most certainly can explore whether they might have wider application. We can explore the possibility of adding an electronic monitoring requirement to these orders once they have bedded in.

The noble Lord asked about stop-and-search powers in relation to someone subject to a KCPO. We believe that the police already have adequate stop-and-search powers under PACE to monitor whether someone is carrying a knife. As he knows, if a police officer has reasonable suspicion that someone subject to a KCPO is carrying a knife, the officer can stop and search the individual under those existing powers. He also asked when the orders might start. The court may provide discretion that the order takes effect from release, when the defendant ceases to be subject to a custodial sentence, or if the defendant ceases to be on licence. It may take effect earlier while a defendant is on day release and subject to stringent conditions.

A number of noble Lords asked me about funding and tackling the issue locally. They will know, from statements I have made, of my right honourable friend the Home Secretary’s intention to make up to £970 million available to the police next year. On a more local level, we are providing £1.5 million in 2018-19 for the community fund, which has funded 68 projects, and £1 million in 2019-20 to help communities to tackle knife crime. The Committee will have heard earlier today about the youth endowment fund, which has £200 million over 10 years to build evidence for early intervention. It will focus on those most at risk of youth violence, including those displaying signs such as truancy, aggression and involvement in anti-social behaviour.

We can take into account many of the issues raised today when preparing the statutory guidance provided for under Amendment 73S, and as part of the pilot we intend to run in the Metropolitan Police district before implementing these orders across England and Wales. As the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, has signalled that he cannot support these amendments today I will of course withdraw them, with regret. However, the Committee can be assured that I will return to them at Report.

Amendment 73A withdrawn.
Amendments 73B to 73U not moved.
Amendment 74
Moved by
74: After Clause 31, insert the following new Clause—
“Increased security measures for certain firearms
(1) The Firearms Act 1968 is amended as follows.(2) Before section 5 insert—“4B Increased security measures for certain firearms(1) A person commits an offence if, other than at times when he or she has a weapon specified in this section on or about his or her person, it is not secured in accordance with Home Office Level 3 Security.(2) The weapons specified in this section are—(a) any rifle with a calibre greater than .45 inches, or(b) any rifle with a chamber from which empty cartridge cases are extracted using—(i) energy from propellant gas, or(ii) energy imparted to a spring or other energy storage device by propellant gas.””Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is intended to enable discussion of security measures for firearms generally.
Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, in moving Amendment 74 I shall at the same time speak to Amendment 78 in this group.

This Bill is about where we set boundaries to protect the public from the misuse of dangerous objects. This amendment gives us an opportunity to discuss where that boundary should be set in the case of rifles. In other bits of the Bill we quite clearly take the decision to ban dangerous objects for which there is no legitimate use and to control those for which there is a legitimate use. There is no perfect or absolute formula that I have been able to discover, in any country, for where that boundary should be set. Different countries come to different conclusions at different times. The use of weapons in sports is widely allowed—for example, archery, fencing, shooting, jousting, javelin and discus. It is commonplace, up to the highest level, that sports derived from martial arts—including those using our own bodies—should be allowed, and I support that. Given that, we then have to consider what restrictions we put in place. In doing that, I believe we should consider what restrictions are necessary. What evidence is there that a restriction is required? We should start from a principle of allowing and then work to look for evidence that allows us to restrict.

When it comes to making firearms safe—meaning rifles rather than shotguns, for which you would have a firearms certificate—the issuing of a certificate to a holder is the principal means of protecting the public from the misuse of firearms.

17:45
As has been said, we hope that the Government will get a move on in making the necessary changes and improvements to that system but, that said, it appears to work pretty well. I have not been able to find a recent record of a crime being committed with a legally held firearm that involved someone getting hurt. Obviously, there are historic examples, which have resulted in us making changes to legislation, but since then nothing has happened, as far as I can find out, to indicate that the current system is in need of improvement. Even if it were, our attention should first be focused on how we improve that system. What can we do? Can we convince ourselves that we are unable to take further measures to make the processes for deciding who should be allowed to hold firearms better? As I said, those processes seem to be working pretty well, although we absolutely need to keep them under review, up to date and effective.
The second layer of ways in which we protect the public is the requirement that firearms be kept safely. We have options to strengthen that. Level 3 security, which is that used by public servants who hold extremely dangerous weapons in private places, is generally accepted to be more effective than the level commonly required for rifles held by members of the public. We have an option, if we are concerned about particular firearms, to say that those firearms must be held using a safer method. That should be considered before we move to banning.
Then we should ask, in relation to the particular weapons that we are considering, what the actual danger is of those weapons falling into the hands of the public. The two weapons that are considered in the Bill have, as far as I can find out, never been used in a crime of any description. That is for the fairly obvious reason that they are entirely unsuited for use in crime. If you want to be a criminal and to use a weapon, you want something that you can conceal and that is easy to get out; if you want something with power, you want something that is truly automatic and not fiddly. These are not the sort of weapons that someone would go looking for if they wanted a weapon to use in crime, which is why nobody has.
We need to spend more intelligence and effort than we do on stemming the flow into this country of illegal handguns, in particular. There are things that we could do better. We are not as good as we might be in dealing with the standard flow of packets into this country. I would like us to concentrate on that, because that route allows a significant flow of dangerous weapons into the hands of dangerous people. By and large, private individuals who hold firearms for sporting purposes do not let them get stolen and, when they are stolen, they are not what the criminals want to use. The level of public danger from these weapons is very low.
We need to keep this under review. Things change from time to time. Fashions change. Ways in which people choose to commit crime change. At the moment, on the evidence that I have, and I have done my best to ask the Government to show us their evidence, although I have not got much from them, which I suspect is because they do not have much evidence—
Lord Robertson of Port Ellen Portrait Lord Robertson of Port Ellen (Lab)
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I am listening to what the noble Lord is saying and the assumptions he is making about the guns that are being talked about—or in this case, not talked about—and them not falling into the wrong hands. Why does he think the Home Secretary of this country said in the House of Commons that,

“according to intelligence provided by police and security services”,

these .50 calibre guns,

“have been possessed by criminals who have clearly intended to use them”?—[Official Report, Commons, 27/6/18; col. 919.]

Does the noble Lord have better information and intelligence than the Home Secretary?

Earl Attlee Portrait Earl Attlee (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, if I might help my noble friend, it is possible that Ministers and Members in another House have been slightly inaccurately briefed. For instance, they were told that the effective range of a .50 calibre round is 6,800 metres, whereas in actual fact, it is only about 1,800 metres.

Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas
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My Lords, I was talking about the two forms of rifle which are specifically addressed in the Bill. These are not .50 calibre rifles, but lighter ones, which are adapted for use by disabled people and make it easier to reload the round using power derived from the previous shot. That is a .50 calibre, but again, the calibre alone does not tell you all you need to know about the rifle; you need to know whether a particular weapon is dangerous. The weapons used in target shooting tend to be heavy and cumbersome and the ammunition is not the same as that used in military operations.

I have asked for evidence. There may be evidence out there, but it has not made its way to me. My particular arguments are about the guns addressed in the Bill, as there is no evidence of misuse of those guns or available evidence showing that these are fundamentally more dangerous than other rifles. There is also no evidence that they cannot be properly secured through a mixture of physical security and the systems we have to ensure that firearms are only held by the people who ought to hold them.

Lord Robertson of Port Ellen Portrait Lord Robertson of Port Ellen
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Before Hungerford and Dunblane, there had not been evidence of legally held handguns being used to massacre people. However, Hungerford and Dunblane happened, and after that, we passed legislation and the country is much safer as a result.

Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas
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Absolutely. We need to keep these things under consideration. However, if one took the noble Lord’s argument to its logical conclusion, we would ban cars because they have been used deliberately to kill people. Any kind of weapon, including knives, presents a danger to the public. Because there is a legitimate use for these objects, we choose to look at how to balance the potential danger with the potential good. I hope that we will choose to do it on the basis of evidence, which says, yes, these things are dangerous, but we have systems in place which negate that danger. Rules on the weapons the public may hold legitimately, plus the safeguards we take, mean this is not the route through which weapons reach the people who will misuse them. In society as a whole, we have adopted a system which is safe and which allows us to live with the existence of those weapons. It seems to me that the evidence says that is the case at the moment. We do not have a recent history of misuse—of any degree at all—of the weapons which are currently allowed.

It is important to keep these things under review, but it is also important to be sensible. A lot of what is in our lives is dangerous. It is the business of legislators to balance that danger with utility and reach a conclusion; there are lots of different conclusions that can be reached. If we say that people are to have weapons of any description, it seems to me that the current arrangements for allowing people to have firearms are working very well. There is no evidence that incremental banning of particular types of firearm will produce any benefit at all and, as a matter of principle, we ought to take those sorts of decisions based on evidence, rather than because someone feels like it somewhere and no one quite knows why because it is buried in the decision-making processes that created this Bill.

My appeal to my noble friend is that we ought to be looking at where this process is going in the long term, at what we should be doing to make sure that firearms can be legally held, and at the security we want around that. Then, when we arrive at that conclusion, we can show that the weapons which fit within that are not a source of danger to the public, by their nature, because they are not what people who wish to commit crimes will go for.

A lot of guns are being recovered by the police, and by and large they are illegal guns because the guns that are being brought in are much more suitable for use in crime. People will not go for a hunting rifle to commit crime with. We are not talking about hunting rifles in the Bill, but the same considerations apply. If hunting rifles were being widely used in crime, we would be fussed about it, but they are not. The rifles that are the subject of this Bill are not used in crime. There is no instance of them being used in crime. There is nothing obvious about them which makes them more dangerous than other firearms in the context of the controls that we have. As a result of the deliberations in another place, our concerns about .50 calibre are under review. We ought to do the same with the other rifles that are mentioned here and come to a coherent, evidenced conclusion about where in this society we now choose to draw the line on the firearms that people may legally hold and on the purposes for which they may legally hold them. I am not saying that there is an absolute value to any particular place to draw the line; I am saying that we ought to do this on the basis of evidence, and nothing that my noble friends have been able to provide me with at the moment offers evidence that the rifles we are discussing pose any greater danger than the many other rifles that we permit people to hold. I beg to move.

Earl of Shrewsbury Portrait The Earl of Shrewsbury (Con)
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My Lords, I rise to support my noble friend’s amendment and to speak to my Amendments 78B, 79A and 79B. Additionally, I want to refer to an earlier comment about the Dunblane massacre and the handguns that were banned afterwards. I was chairman of the FCC at that time and remember it very well indeed. The only effect of the ban on handguns at that stage and of the incoming Government’s Bill to ban other handguns below .32 calibre was to drive those handguns underground. Since then, it is fair to say that there are many fewer legally held handguns because it is illegal to hold them, but nine out 10 of the guns used in crime are illegal, and the number of illegally held handguns has ballooned over the years since Dunblane.

I wish to address lever-release and MARS rifles which are the subject also of my noble friend’s amendment. They are used in general by disabled shooters who find it extremely difficult to use a standard rifle. These disabled shooters normally have big problems, such as arthritis in their fingers and hands, or mobility problems so they have to shoot from a sitting position. Prohibition of these two types of guns would cause those shooters considerable hardship and probably leave them unable to take part in their chosen target disciplines and competitions. I am certainly not aware of any evidence that MARS or LR weapons have ever been used in crime, and I feel strongly that they could easily be held on Section 1 certificates with level 3 enhanced security, which comes in guidance to the police. I have no problems with that provision whatever. These people look after their guns incredibly safely in any case. I look forward to my noble friend’s views on those matters.

18:00
Earl of Cork and Orrery Portrait The Earl of Cork and Orrery (CB)
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I object to some parts of the amendment. There are two or three areas where there is insufficient attention to detail for it to supersede the original Bill. For a start, there is a question about MARS and lever action which, as has just been raised, is used by target shooters in international competition. This is an important aspect of Paralympic competition and normal shooting competitions, so we do not want to catch those weapons in the amendment. Another item left out from the amendment, I suspect by mistake, relates to a prohibition on the use of .22 rimfire semi-automatic rifles, which are widely used for vermin control and the like. That certainly should be in the amendment. Another point is that although the amendment refers to,

“a calibre greater than .45 inches”,

there are quite large numbers of rifles out there—

Earl of Shrewsbury Portrait The Earl of Shrewsbury
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My Lords, I do not think that .22 calibres are caught. I think the noble Earl is incorrect there.

Earl of Cork and Orrery Portrait The Earl of Cork and Orrery
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As I read it, the amendment does not refer to the .22 calibre whereas a similar paragraph in the Bill does.

Earl of Shrewsbury Portrait The Earl of Shrewsbury
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My Lords, I think that may be a typographic error. It should refer to the .22.

Earl of Cork and Orrery Portrait The Earl of Cork and Orrery
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Typographic error or no, it is not in there. Going back to large-calibre rifles, quite a lot of people get much fun out of remarkable things such as black-powder, muzzle-loader and Snider .577 rifles, which are far larger but have very low effects. Again, more detail is required to ensure that these sort of things can be legally held.

Earl Attlee Portrait Earl Attlee
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My Lords, I have tabled Amendments 80A to 80D in this group. If the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, had not tabled his Amendment 79 concerning .50 calibre rifles, he would have been best described as asleep at the wheel. I think the Committee will be grateful for the opportunity to discuss this matter and, hopefully, identify a solution. Other noble Lords have discussed the genesis of this matter. A .50 calibre rifle is clearly in a class of its own. However, I have some concerns about the quality of briefings given to Ministers and to Members of the House of Commons. It is therefore not surprising that the Government had to drop their provisions on .50 calibre rifles in the House of Commons.

While .50 calibre target rifles have some extraordinary characteristics, they are entirely dependent on the skill of the user. It is tempting to believe that all one has to do to hit the V-bull centre of the target is to line up the cross-hairs of a telescopic sight and squeeze the trigger. The reality is rather more complex. It is a great sport simply because it is so difficult, and therefore not surprising that target shooting is an Olympic sport. First, the rifle has to be held correctly and in exactly the same way for every shot. The shooter’s breathing has to be controlled perfectly. If I was trying to shoot at 1,000 yards I doubt that I could keep the cross-hairs on the target, let alone the bull. Trigger action is also all-important. For instance, snatching the trigger is the cause of a lot of inaccuracy. Frankly, due to the recoil, if I tried to fire a .50 calibre target rifle I would be terrified—a 7.62 target rifle is bad enough. For all these reasons, an applicant for a firearms certificate for a .50 calibre target rifle will not be successful unless considerable skill can be demonstrated with lighter but full-bore target rifles.

It is of course exceptionally unlikely that a terrorist would have the necessary skill to use a .50 calibre rifle in the way feared by some. My noble friend Lord Lucas said that these rifles had never been used in crime.

I do not have a philosophical objection to private ownership of a .50 calibre target rifle. However, two mischiefs remain. The first is that if one was stolen it could for a while give rise to major security concerns. This might result in certain events being cancelled. The second is this. I do not have the skill to use a .50 calibre rifle effectively. However, I have the skill to incorporate one into a remote-controlled weapon system and it would have none of the marksmanship weaknesses that I have. The good news is that it is very unusual for someone with this level of engineering skill to use it for such evil and illegal purposes. It is even less likely in the case of today’s radicalised terrorists, who usually have very limited skills.

In the UK, we suffer mercifully few disasters with legally held firearms. This is because we get the balance right. Ministers generally make the right decisions, taking into account advice from Home Office officials. There is one particular official who has done sterling work over many years and has briefed or worked with many of us in this Committee. I am sure that noble Lords know who I am talking about and we should be grateful for his efforts.

My Amendment 80A would build on my noble friend Lord Lucas’s Amendment 74 and provide that special storage and transport conditions on a firearms certificate were mandatory in the case of a high muzzle energy rifle; that is, one with more than 13,600 joules of energy.

My Amendment 80B would give the Secretary of State an order-making power to specify the special storage and transport conditions to be included on the certificate. Of course, we could go for guidance rather than an order. I have made no provision for parliamentary scrutiny because I do not believe it to be sensible to make the security details public.

So far as I can see, the current standard gun cabinets are designed to prevent unauthorised access or opportunistic theft and they appear to do so. However, they are not designed to resist a determined attack using specialist equipment. My noble friend Lord Lucas proposes a much higher level of security and I support this. While my noble friend’s amendment is clear on what is proposed, I think that there are drafting issues and I suspect that the same applies to my amendment.

I understand that some owners of .50 calibre target rifles already have the requisite secure facilities. However, some might not be so lucky and there is also a vulnerability when these guns are in transit. Currently, it is illegal to possess any of the key components of a firearm without a certificate and this includes the bolt. My Amendment 80C would allow another person to be in possession of a bolt if this was in connection with a special storage and transport condition. I would expect there to be documentary conditions involved. This provision could be useful in allowing club officials to hold the bolts for the owners of a .50 calibre rifle. It could also allow the rifle to be transported without the bolt being present with the rifle. Therefore, if a rifle is stolen but the bolt can still be accounted for, there is no security problem and no risk.

I have made no special provision about the ammunition because I do not believe that it is necessary or beneficial. This is because dealing with the rifle solves the problem and it is not particularly difficult to acquire or reload a few rounds of .50 calibre ammunition for some terrible purpose.

I am not fixed on whether we solve this problem by storage conditions or by disassembling the rifle, thus rendering it harmless except when in use on a range, or a combination of the two. It may be best to have a range of options available to suit the circumstances, and this could be provided for in the proposed order or guidance. If we want to have a disassembly option available, we need my Amendment 80C, or something similar on the face of the Bill.

If the sense of the Grand Committee is that something along the lines of my suggestion is acceptable, the Minister may be more tempted to take the opportunity to come up with a properly drafted government amendment. The consultation could then go forward as planned and, with benefit of the consultation, the Government could implement the necessary changes by whatever means is provided in the Bill.

My final amendment in this group is Amendment 80D. The Firearms Act 1968 does not define a rifle, other than to say that the term includes a carbine. This is because there was no need. I was concerned that the prohibition of high muzzle energy rifles might catch preserved artillery and tank guns, which are currently licensed by an ordinary firearms certificate if they have not already been deactivated. I have been assured by officials that the term “rifle” would exclude artillery pieces, and this makes sense. However, if we do make the changes regarding HME rifles, an individual police officer might want to make a name for himself by claiming that an artillery piece is caught by any legislation we eventually pass. He could claim that the term “rifle” means a firearm that has been rifled. Indeed, one noble and gallant Lord has asked me to look at and raise this point. I have previously been involved with a problem arising in this way, concerning the Vehicle Excise Act, concrete pumping machines and mobile cranes— don’t ask.

It would be best to define a rifle in the 1968 Act, but I would be happy if the Minister gave a categorical “Pepper v Hart” assurance that the term “rifle” does not include larger pieces of ordnance.

Earl of Erroll Portrait The Earl of Erroll (CB)
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My Lords, I want to make a couple of general comments about these amendments. I never think it is worth passing legislation just because it looks good. Is it going to be effective, or not? Sometimes, where there is a problem, one hits something that looks like an easy target; it sounds good, and will keep the papers and the public happy. It may not change anything in the real world, which is about trying to protect people.

Some of this legislation could be held to be against the Disability Discrimination Act, in that some people who have problems can shoot with modified rifles, take part in international competition and get a huge sense of pride and success from doing well in it. However, the rifles do need to be modified and without these amendments, it looks as if they will be excluded from competition. It would be very sad if people who cannot run, jump or do other things have the one thing they are good at taken away from them. We should think quite hard about that.

Purely defining something by its muzzle size catches a lot of things that are not dangerous at all—muzzle loaders, for example. We have not really dealt with .50 calibre properly. Although a .50 has a good range, it is not going to pierce armour and cause huge destruction unless you have a military-grade armour-piercing round for it. You are not going to get one of those very easily, and you certainly are not going to load it yourself.

Earl Attlee Portrait Earl Attlee
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My Lords, I have some bad news for the noble Earl. Even a .50 calibre ball round has very high destructive power.

Earl of Erroll Portrait The Earl of Erroll
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I suppose it is destructive, but it was penetrative power I was thinking of.

Earl Attlee Portrait Earl Attlee
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Penetrative power as well.

Earl of Erroll Portrait The Earl of Erroll
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I stand corrected, but there are many other things that do too. I do wonder whether we are just homing in on one particular device, when you can make yourself a mortar that can blow up a lot of people. Why would you want to choose that particular weapon? I am very sad when I see us unable to take part in international competitions on a global stage, because we are worrying about something that has not been a problem yet.

Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran
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I do not want to stifle the debate but there is concern about the number of groups of amendments we have to get through. If noble Lords could keep their comments reasonably brief, that would be much appreciated.

18:15
Lord Robertson of Port Ellen Portrait Lord Robertson of Port Ellen
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I appreciate what the Minister is saying but this is a critical part of the legislation, where some strong views are held on both sides. Having sat through the debate so far, I also appreciate that we want to finish the business. I am not an expert in this field but I know that there are many experts around, who will undoubtedly contribute. This matter has excited a lot of interest outside the House.

First, I am not anti-target shooting. I was a member of the House of Commons rifle club, when it existed, and went target shooting in the subterranean depths of this building. Of course, I was Defence Secretary and then Secretary-General of NATO so I must have ordered huge quantities of guns of every description. As I said at Second Reading, I am a resident of Dunblane and became deeply engaged in the debate that took place after that shooting. I would contradict what was said about the banning of the private ownership of handguns leading to an increase in the amount of crime involving them. My colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, who has now left, also disagreed with that.

I am here to probe the issue of .50 calibre guns. In other contexts, they would be known colloquially as sniper rifles; they certainly have a destructive power over very long distances. I want to pray in aid what was said by the Home Secretary. I am not normally a great disciple of his—I think that he is running for Prime Minister at the moment, or at least leader of the Conservative Party when the vacancy eventually and inevitably occurs—but, as the Home Secretary, he has access to a lot of information that the rest of us do not. So, when he comes to the House of Commons and makes Statements, we should listen carefully.

We should also listen to what the Home Office had to say in preparation for the Bill. The department produces impact assessments—a very good innovation, whenever they were brought in, to describe the impact of legislation on costs, society and provisions on law and order. An impact assessment was done on .50 calibre rifles but, oddly enough, it is not in the Printed Paper Office. An impact assessment on the knife aspect of the Bill is available, but not one on the part about guns. If I can read its very small writing, the impact assessment which I found on the internet states:

“There is concern about the availability of .50 calibre and rapid-fire Manually Actuated Release System (MARS) rifles”—


as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas—

“being available to some civilian firearms licence holders. The range and penetrative power of 0.50 calibre rifles makes them more dangerous than other common firearms and were they to be used in criminal or terrorist activities would present a serious threat to the public and would be uniquely difficult for the police to control. Due to the rate of discharge MARS rifles pose a comparable risk to the public and police as other self-loading weapons already banned in the UK. The Government need to intervene to ensure the purchase, ownership or possession is illegal”.

That Home Office impact assessment was delivered to the Government in preparation for the legislation.

In the House of Commons, the Home Secretary said when he presented the Bill:

“We based those measures on evidence that we received from intelligence sources, police and other security experts … According to the information that we have, weapons of this type have, sadly, been used in the troubles in Northern Ireland, and, according to intelligence provided by police and security services, have been possessed by criminals who have clearly intended to use them”.—[Official Report, Commons, 27/6/18; cols. 918-19.]


These are not my words or an exaggeration by anti-gun campaigners, but the words of the Home Secretary. He did not resile from these comments when he withdrew the clause from the Bill, under pressure from a large number of Back-Bench Conservative MPs. All he has said is that the matter would be subject to further consultation. The danger between now and the end of the consultation is represented precisely by the Home Secretary’s warning. I hope the Minister will be able to explain why the Committee should listen to outside experts when the Home Secretary of this country has given such a graphic description of the dangers presented by these weapons.

Earl Attlee Portrait Earl Attlee
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My Lords, I hold the noble Lord in very high regard, but is he saying that Ministers and their advisers are infallible?

Lord Robertson of Port Ellen Portrait Lord Robertson of Port Ellen
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They are certainly not infallible—I speak from great experience on that— but the Home Secretary clearly did not come to the House of Commons unprepared and without checking thoroughly in advance. His statements are clearly there. His predecessor was misled and she resigned. I do not think that the present Home Secretary is likely to make that mistake again or that he has been misled; he said what he believed and what he had been told.

Viscount Goschen Portrait Viscount Goschen (Con)
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My Lords, I will make a brief intervention in this debate. I declare an interest as a holder of a firearms certificate and the owner of a number of rifles, none of which would come anywhere near the type of muzzle energy we are talking about.

I support the description of our firearms licensing regime given by my noble friend Lord Lucas. It is generally accepted internationally that the UK has one of the most rigorous and best informed firearms licensing regimes in the world. It is also generally accepted that the shooting community respects and understands that the holding of a firearms certificate is a privilege that can be removed. Because of that, they are a very law-abiding section of the community. They are acutely aware that their sport and activity can be curtailed should they be involved in criminal activity entirely unrelated to the use of their firearms.

With that in mind, we have to be a bit careful of banning things because they are an easy target—forgive the pun. It is easy to work out where a particular category of firearm is and remove it from circulation. I hold no particular candle for the .50 calibre rifle and I am open to arguments about where the line should be drawn, because one indeed has to be drawn somewhere. We have acted in the past regarding handguns, fully automatic weapons and a number of other eventualities, but I very much support my noble friend Lord Lucas’s contention that before we ban something we have to have a closely argued, coherent case that is evidence based. Just banning something because we feel like it or because it is easy to do should not be a proper course of action.

Debate on the Bill has, on the one hand, largely been about very large numbers of people carrying knives, often using them and being closely tied up with the criminal fraternity, particularly drug dealers. On the other hand, the Bill talks about banning the use of a piece of equipment that is legally held when no recorded crime has ever been committed using a legally held rifle of such high-muzzle energy, as far as I understand it. I am open to correction by my noble friend and other Members of the Committee. We have to be very careful about that. Where do we draw the line?

I quite accept what the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, said: these are weapons of very high power and very high destructive capability. That is absolutely correct. On the other hand, their utility for criminals is much lower than that of many other sniper rifles. He described them as sniper rifles, and indeed they are. But they are not the typical sniper rifles used by the British Army, which are in calibres much closer to sporting rifles and are much smaller pieces of equipment. We have to put this in perspective and look at the actual threat.

When the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, referred to what was worrying the Home Secretary about these rifles, it occurred to me to question whether he was worried about the theft of these 130 or so rifles, a tiny number, or about one of those firearm certificate holders turning bad. Or was it really about someone purchasing one of these—in America, for example—and turning it into a small number of machinery components, putting them in a container and smuggling them in, as a vast number of illegally held pistols arrive in this country. The real danger faced on the streets is from illegally held weapons, not legally held weapons.

Earl of Cork and Orrery Portrait The Earl of Cork and Orrery
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My Lords, I will add a couple of points. It is very instructive to look up “sniper rifles” on Google because you get a huge list of them, the vast majority at 7.62 calibre not .50 calibre. It is also interesting to see that three of the most popular .50 calibre rifles are made in this country and well known globally as some of the most popular sniper rifles. There are currently believed to be 200 large- calibre rifles in the UK, which is not a very substantial number. The cost of acquiring one of these .50 calibre target rifles is also not cheap—about £20,000 for the whole package, so there are never going to be very many of them.

Another point, which has already been made, is that only one of these rifles has ever been stolen in this country and it was found shortly afterwards, dumped by the opportunist thief, who realised that there was absolutely nothing he could do with it. They weigh about 36 pounds, which means they are not exactly the easiest things to carry around, and are very substantial in length—a length from here to the end of the desk. So we are talking about a rare beast indeed.

Lord Paddick Portrait Lord Paddick
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My Lords, I hate guns, so I have no interest in promoting any cause. I do not want to trivialise firearms offences because they can be very serious, but they are relatively small in number compared with the number of knife crime offences, for example. Only 1% of non-air weapon firearms offences involve rifles. Bearing in mind the very low number of offences committed using rifles, can the Minister tell the Committee why the Government have set these hares running?

18:30
Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark
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My Lords, I have Amendments 79 and 80 in this group. They are word-for-word what was in the Bill when it was first published in the House of Commons. I am attempting to put back into the Bill the clauses put forward by the Government originally—not my usual role here as opposition spokesperson; I am usually trying to take out government clauses or change them, but here we are today trying to put them back in.

My noble friend Lord Robertson of Port Ellen set out clearly at Second Reading and again today why these weapons should be banned. They are more dangerous in terms of their penetrative power and range. My noble friend quoted the Home Secretary’s comments; I shall not quote them again. The Home Secretary was very clear why these weapons had to be banned; he had had intelligence about why it was important to do that. Then we had a complete about turn and the clause was taken out between Second Reading and Third Reading. I am sure we will find out at some point what happened and why that was done. My honourable friend Louise Haigh, the shadow Policing Minister, was very clear that the Opposition backed the Government’s original position and that the provision would pass through the House of Commons without any problems.

It is interesting that the Government have gone much further than what people on the Government Benches wanted. The Member for The Cotswolds, Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, suggested level 3 security, but that is not here. They were not looking for the weapon to be banned but wanted enhanced security, very much along the lines of the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, but there is nothing here. That security level means that the gun, the bolt and the ammunition are kept in three separate safes. At the moment the Government are proposing not to do that. They are going to leave the security as it is. That is regrettable.

I am not an expert on guns. I do not particularly like guns, but I have fired some weapons, including a sniper rifle and a few shotguns. I fired them on ranges, and when I was in the Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme I did some stuff. I have shot only at targets and clay pigeons. I am very pleased that we live in a country where we have tough laws on weapons. I am very proud that we have them, and they are good.

My noble friend Lord Robertson was right to point out in respect of evidence that, before Hungerford and Dunblane, handguns were not generally seen as an issue. It was only after the two tragedies that Government had to act to ban them. We can never say what is going to happen in the future.

The Government were right in their original proposals, and it is shame we are here today. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has tabled an amendment to improve the position today. I am very pleased to see it because it is better than the Government’s suggestion. It at least gives level 3 security. That will make it more difficult for weapons to be obtained illegally, and although it is not an absolute guarantee it is certainly progress. I shall not press my amendment, but I am looking forward to hearing the Minister’s comments in response to the debate, because these are serious issues. As my noble friend Lord Robertson said, although the Government removed the two clauses, at no point has the Home Secretary withdrawn the remarks he made. My worry is that after we have had this review, the Government will decide that we need to ban these weapons and then will say that we have no legislation to ban them and we will have to wait until something comes along. That is the often the case with many things which we suggest in opposition. The Government aim to do things and say they will do them at some point when they find a Bill they can put them in. My worry is that we may end up there. I raised that point at Second Reading with the noble Baroness, Lady Williams. If the Government are going to do a consultation and then decide to ban these weapons, they should take a power to enable them to do that through secondary legislation. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Earl Howe Portrait The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)
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My Lords, my noble friend Lord Lucas began by quite rightly pointing out that this is a Bill about setting boundaries. As we have heard, this group of amendments deals with what is the appropriate form of regulation for high muzzle energy rifles. We have heard a variety of views from all sides of the Committee. Some noble Lords are seeking to restore the prohibition of these rifles removed from the Bill in the Commons. Other noble Lords are seeking to go further than the amendments made in the Commons by also removing the prohibition on so-called MARS rifles, while yet other noble Lords seek to find a middle way by introducing mandatory security requirements. I will endeavour to disentangle these competing approaches by setting out the Government’s considered view on the various amendments.

I begin with what is, in effect, the middle-way option, if only because my noble friend Lord Lucas’s Amendment 74 is the first one in this group, but I will address my noble friend Earl Attlee’s Amendments 80A to 80C as they cover similar ground, albeit from a different perspective. Amendment 74 provides us with an opportunity to test whether a requirement to apply the highest standards of security for the storage of specific firearm types when not in use might be an alternative to prohibition. The Government are not seeking to prohibit ownership of high muzzle energy rifles through this Bill, so it is relevant for us to discuss the merits of applying enhanced security to the storage of such firearms while they continue to be available to civilians under our firearms licensing arrangements. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, takes the contrary view, and I will come on to his amendments shortly.

The Bill will prohibit civilian access to more rapid-firing rifles, which makes any discussion of secure storage in respect of these weapons otiose, although we will come to Amendments 78A and 79A, which would have the effect of removing that prohibition from the Bill, and Amendments 78B and 79B, which seek to make changes to the prohibition.

The Government are concerned about the potential public safety risks that more powerful and more rapid-firing rifles pose, should they fall into the hands of criminals or terrorists. It is therefore right that where any such firearms remain available for civilian use and ownership on a firearms certificate issued by the police they should be subject to the highest standards of security to prevent theft and misuse. I therefore understand the reference in my noble friend Lord Lucas’s amendment to the requirements of level 3 security. This relates to different levels of security arrangements that are set out in the Home Office’s Firearms Security Handbook, with level 3 being the highest level of security measures set out in the handbook.

The first point I want to make in respect of this amendment is that it would be something of an anomaly to specify particular security conditions in this way in the Bill. It is currently an operational matter for police forces to satisfy themselves that the security in place for any firearm held by a civilian is proportionate to the risk that the specific firearm poses, taking all relevant factors into account. The issue of the relevant firearms certificate can be made contingent on the required levels of security being in place. While it is right that we should ask the police to have due regard to the requirements of the handbook, it would, as I have said, be an anomaly to set out in primary legislation the level of security required for one specific rifle type.

While I fully understand the point behind the amendment, it is important to be aware that the Firearms Security Handbook is a joint Home Office and policing document, intended to guide forces. The document has no specific legal weight and can be amended administratively. In such circumstances, I contend to my noble friend, it would not be appropriate to specify level 3 security in this Bill.

Amendments 80A to 80C in the name of my noble friend Earl Atlee address the same issue, but in a different way. These amendments in turn seek to amend the Firearms Act 1968 in order to provide the Secretary of State with an order-making power to specify the conditions relating to the secure storage and transportation of high muzzle energy rifles, which must be attached to the relevant firearms certificates issued by the police. The point behind the amendments is important. Dangerous firearms held in the community must be kept and stored as securely as possible.

The Government have given a commitment that we will consult on the issue of whether high muzzle energy rifles should be subject to a general prohibition, along with a number of other issues relating to firearms safety, after the Bill has completed its passage through Parliament. But the Government recognise the strength of feeling on this issue, on all sides. I know that some, including the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, have concerns about waiting for a further public consultation to run its course, particularly if this leads to a call for further legislation. We therefore take the point that there is a case for action in this area at this time. The Government will therefore give further consideration to the amendments tabled by my noble friends Lord Lucas and Earl Atlee ahead of Report. I cannot at this juncture give a commitment beyond that, but I assure both my noble friends that the case they put forward has landed and will be looked at seriously.

Amendments 78, 78B, 79A and 79B provide us with an opportunity to consider potential alternatives to the prohibition of the rifle types specified in Clause 32. Clauses 32 and 33 will strengthen the controls in respect of rapid-firing rifles, as defined by these clauses. As I explained earlier, these are currently available for civilian use or ownership under general licensing arrangements administered by the police under Section 1 of the Firearms Act 1968 or Article 45 of the Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2004. This means that at present they can be owned only by somebody who has a firearms certificate for which they have been vetted by the police. Following advice from experts in the law enforcement agencies, we consider that these rifles should be brought under stricter controls. That will be achieved by adding them to the list of prohibited firearms provided for by Section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968 and Article 45 of the Northern Ireland order. Weapons that are so prohibited are subject to more rigorous controls than other firearms and may be possessed only with the authority of the Secretary of State.

My noble friend Lord Shrewsbury and the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, argued that the proposed ban of rapid-fire rifles could discriminate against disabled shooters. That point was raised during discussion of the Bill in the other place. I have to say straight out that I am not impressed by that argument. If the prohibition has an impact on disabled shooters, those who provide shooting facilities should see what alternative assistance might be provided to disabled shooters by shooting clubs, whether by adapting other types of rifle or adapting the places where disabled people shoot. So I am afraid that I do not find my noble friend’s and the noble Earl’s argument particularly powerful on that issue.

It is not our intention to restrict unnecessarily or arbitrarily the lawful use of firearms by licence holders for legitimate sporting purposes, for example. The vast majority of people in lawful possession of firearms use them responsibly and it is right that any controls need to be proportionate. But at the same time, the Government are concerned about the recent rises in gun crime and the changing threats and heightened risk to public safety. All firearms are by their very nature potentially dangerous and, indeed, lethal, but the rifles specified in Clauses 32 and 33 are considered to be more dangerous than other firearms permitted for civilian ownership under the firearms legislation. These rifles can discharge rounds at a much faster rate than conventional bolt-action rifles, which are permitted under licence and are normally operated manually with an up-and-back, forward-and-down motion.

The definition as set out in the Bill refers to the use of the energy from the propellant gas to extract the empty cartridge cases. This brings them much closer to self-loading rifles, which are already prohibited for civilian ownership under our firearms laws. The Government are therefore concerned about their potential for serious misuse and loss of life if they were to fall into the hands of criminals or terrorists.

18:45
If I understand my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury correctly—he will correct me if I am mistaken—his Amendments 78B and 79B are intended to alter and narrow the definition of rapid-fire rifle, as set out in Clauses 32 and 33. The definition currently includes rifles that employ the manually actuated release firing system, which uses propellant gas to assist in swifter reloading through a second pull of the trigger, and those that employ the lever-release system, which makes use of a lever operated by the user’s thumb allowing the bolt to be released, thereby chambering a fresh round. I take it that my noble friend’s amendments seek to exclude the latter from the prohibition. It is the Government’s view that both these rifle types can discharge rounds at a much faster rate than other rifles and, for the reasons I have already set out, we believe that both types should be captured by the intended prohibition.
I turn to Amendments 79 and 80 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. The effect of these amendments would be to re-insert measures in the Bill to strengthen the controls on particularly powerful high muzzle energy rifles. These rifles are currently available for civilian use or ownership under general licensing arrangements administered by the police. The Government’s reasons for seeking to prohibit civilian access to these rifles received much scrutiny during the Bill’s passage through the House of Commons. We heard arguments to the effect that the weight and cumbersome nature of these rifles means that they would not be the weapon of choice for criminals. We also heard that there are currently limited numbers of these weapons in private ownership and, as I have already touched on, we heard arguments to suggest that heightened security to ensure the safe storage of these weapons could lessen law enforcement agencies’ concerns about the availability of these rifles on licence.
The Government continue to have concerns about the potential for serious misuse and loss of life if these rifles were to fall into the hands of criminals or terrorists, for exactly the reasons articulated by the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, when he cited the words used by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked why we have set hares running, as he put it, on this subject. That makes the Government’s position sound a little capricious, which I assure him it is not. The UK’s law enforcement authorities have flagged their concerns to us about the risks that these rifles would pose to public safety if they were to get into the hands of criminals or terrorists, as I have described. The action that we sought to take originally in the other place was pre-emptive and preventive in its intent. However, we are now in a different place.
We recognise that there are a range of views on this issue and that the debate is a complex one. My noble friend Lord Goschen expressed powerful views in arguing against a ban on high muzzle energy rifles, as did the noble Earl, Lord Cork and Orrery.
Viscount Goschen Portrait Viscount Goschen
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I said that I was open to hearing the arguments. I was saying that we should have a powerful case before we move to such a ban, if that is the direction that Her Majesty’s Government seek to take. The airing of these issues in this House and in another place are very helpful, but we need to follow the spirit of evidence before any action.

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That is extremely helpful. I agree with my noble friend. That is exactly why the Government felt that a longer public debate about this issue was appropriate.

In the light of representations made by representative firearms bodies and others during the passage of the Bill, the Government sought advice from the National Crime Agency on whether heightened security standards governing the safe storage of these rifles would be sufficient to reduce the concerns expressed to us. In the light of the advice received, we took the view that we should look again at options for enhancing the security requirements associated with these particular rifles, rather than push for their prohibition under the firearms legislation at the present time. That is why the provisions to prohibit high muzzle energy rifles were removed from the Bill on Report in the Commons.

It is the Government’s view that we should not proceed with prohibition without considering further the views of the police, relevant shooting organisations and members of the public. As was announced in the Commons, it is the Government’s intention to launch a full public consultation on this and on the firearms safety issues that have arisen during the Bill’s progress. That will provide an opportunity fully to consider the views of all those involved or with an interest and to make a better assessment of whether enhanced security, as proposed by my noble friends, would be sufficient to address the risks set out by the police and the NCA.

Finally, Amendment 80D in the name of my noble friend Lord Attlee seeks to make a change to the definition of “rifle” in Section 57 of the Firearms Act 1968. The purpose of that definition is to make it clear that the ordinary definition of “rifle” includes carbines, a particular type of long gun firearm with a shorter barrel than a normal rifle, which is classified as a rifle for the purposes of firearms controls. As he helpfully set out, my noble friend’s purpose in tabling the amendment is to make it clear that when we talk about rifles, including for the purposes of Clauses 32 and 33, we are talking about hand-held rifles, specifically those that are fired from the shoulder. My noble friend is clear that he wants there to be no confusion with artillery or guns fitted to tanks. The Government are not persuaded that this change to the Firearms Act is necessary. “Rifle” will continue to carry its normal meaning. I understand that this might have been a concern had we been talking about rifled weapons, but we are not.

In the light of the explanations I have provided and my commitment to consider further Amendments 74 and 80A to 80C, I hope that my noble friend Lord Lucas will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

In my contribution, I made a point about the Government taking out amendments then putting them back in. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, at Second Reading, the Minister referred to consultation. Today, the Minister told us that the Government remain very concerned about these weapons and their power. I worry that we will have the same problem as with the rogue landlords database. We wanted to make the database public through the Housing and Planning Act. We won the votes in the Lords, but they were overturned in the Commons. A year later, the Government changed their mind. Now, of course, the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, is saying, “The Government want to make the database available. We need primary legislation but we cannot find anything to tag it on to”. I worry that the Government will decide in the end that they want to ban these weapons but will say that they cannot find the legislation. Will the Government consider a precautionary power so that if they decide to, they could do that very quickly through secondary legislation?

Earl Attlee Portrait Earl Attlee
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, could achieve his objective by supporting my amendment, or at least the concept behind it, slightly more strongly.

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It was in an endeavour to address the general concern put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, that I undertook for the Government to consider seriously my noble friend Lord Attlee’s amendment and my noble friend Lord Lucas’s arguments. However, I take his point. I am sure that it will not be lost on Home Office Ministers or officials. Of course, we will give that further consideration.

Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful for my noble friend’s calm and consideration, as ever. He would make an excellent target shooter. I will try to persuade him to join the Lords’ team for our battle against the Commons in July. I am grateful for what he said about Amendment 74, but when it comes to what my noble friend referred to as rapid-firing rifles, I would be grateful if he could share with us the evidence on which the Government have based the conclusion that the lever release rifle, in particular, is in practice a rapid-firing rifle.

I am not trying to pose as an expert in these things, but in terms of the evidence I have seen from people outside government, that matter is in question, and that is what lies behind my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury’s amendment. If my noble friend felt able to share the information or opinions on which that conclusion was based before Report, I would be immensely grateful.

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, in so far as the security classification of the advice that the Government have received is not confidential, I would be happy to see what information we can release to my noble friend.

Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am always very grateful to my noble friend and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 74 withdrawn.
Amendment 75
Moved by
75: After Clause 31, insert the following new Clause—
“Implementation of firearms licensing guidance
(1) The Secretary of State must, within the period of six months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed, publish a report on how the Government’s Guide on Firearms Licensing Law (April 2016) is being implemented. (2) A report under subsection (1) must be laid before both Houses of Parliament.(3) The Secretary of State must include in a report under this section—(a) an assessment of the number of encoded reminders that have been placed on the patient records of firearms licence applicants following the grant or renewal of a firearms licence,(b) an assessment of the fees charged by General Practitioners to provide medical information to support a firearms licence application, and(c) an assessment of the number of General Practitioners who have refused to provide medical information to support a firearms licence application, and the reasons for those refusals.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause would place a duty on the Secretary of State to report within six months of the passing of this Act on how the Government’s Guide on Firearms Licensing Law is being implemented, particularly in relation to medical information.
Earl of Shrewsbury Portrait The Earl of Shrewsbury
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, in Amendment 75 I address the medical information that is requested by police forces when someone applies for a firearms certificate or a shotgun licence, both on original grant and on renewal. This issue affects every firearm and shotgun certificate holder in England and Wales. I mentioned all this in my speech at Second Reading.

Paragraph 2 of Article 5 of the EU firearms directive mandates a medical assessment of every applicant for a certificate. In England and Wales, there is no consistency of practice between police forces nor is there any consistency in the fee charged to the applicant by his or her GP for a medical assessment. By way of an example, I was looking on the internet the other day and I saw—no names, no pack drill—a GPs’ practice that stated quite plainly that they were conscientious objectors and that they would not take anyone on who was applying for a shotgun or coterminous or firearms certificate or had any interest in shooting—I find that strange, but there it is. I suppose if you were told that by your GP you would go elsewhere—but their charges were slightly different as well. The conscientious objectors said on the next page, “But we will charge you £200”, and on the next page it was £360, so that does not quite make sense.

What is required is: first, a compulsory and once-only medical records check by the general practitioner in response to a police inquiry about the physical and mental health of the applicant; secondly, an enduring marker should be placed by the GP on the patient’s medical records noting that he or she may be in possession of firearms or shotguns in order to ensure that thereafter the GP is reminded to draw to the police’s attention any future adverse change in the patient’s health, including mental health, which may have a bearing on their abilities safely to possess a firearm or shotgun; thirdly, there should be an agreed, reasonable fee for the GP’s original medical records check and the placing of the enduring marker; fourthly, there should be an extension of the life of firearm or shotgun certificates from five to 10 years, which would reduce pressure on licensing departments and police forces; and finally, there should be protection of the confidentiality of applicants and certificate holders’ data.

To shooting sports bodies, the APPG on Shooting and Conservation, the police and, I hope, the Home Office, that should all make perfect sense. It serves to secure and enhance the safety of the public. It is high time that the Home Office moved forward on this. I beg to move.

19:00
Earl Attlee Portrait Earl Attlee
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury for raising this issue. I agree with everything he said. My noble friend Lady Barran suggested that we ought to be economical with the time, but we are discussing primary legislation and will take as long as we need.

I am increasingly disappointed by the attitude of the BMA, and the medical profession generally, in respect of statutory medicals necessary to protect the public. I need a regular medical to keep my HGV driving entitlement. Of course, I can afford the fee, but for a poorly paid lorry driver, it can be a problem. The cost may also discourage experienced drivers from maintaining their entitlement when they no longer use it. It seems blindingly obvious that the doctor best placed to determine if an individual is safe to hold an HGV licence or a firearms certificate is the applicant’s general practitioner. The GP is paid by the state to look after the health of all their patients; they are also the person most likely to be aware of any problems at home.

We are rightly proud of our firearms licensing system, which we have got about right. However, I would make one observation about some police forces deliberately making the process as difficult as possible to deter applicants. For a few months in early 2003, I was running around in the Middle East on Her Majesty’s Service with a loaded Browning Hi-Power pistol in my holster, so someone must have thought that I was a reliable person. When I returned to the UK in June that year, I realised that the land around my house in the middle of Lincolnshire was infested with rabbits, which were no doubt having an adverse effect on agricultural output. I could have done with a bolt-action .22 sporting rifle, but I did not bother applying for a firearms certificate as I was deterred by the deliberate difficulties I knew I would encounter. It was not important to me. Nevertheless, someone with an unhealthy interest in firearms will do whatever is necessary to secure a firearms certificate, so we are having precisely the opposite effect to the one we desire. An unco-operative medical professional would have been just one more difficulty to deter me. I therefore wish my noble friend success with the points he made.

Earl of Caithness Portrait The Earl of Caithness
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I put my name to this amendment and support it. As my noble friend Lord Lucas said on the previous amendment, the safety of the public is of paramount importance when we talk about shooting; the way we ensure that is by licensing rifles and shotguns.

I have no interests to declare. I do not have a firearms certificate and I do not own shotguns, but this is of great importance to me. It is sad that my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury and I had to table the amendment. It would not have been necessary if the Home Office had got on and dealt with the problem earlier. It has known about it and promised consultation in this area, but it has dragged its feet continuously. The consultation should be well under way by now and the results known so that we could debate it.

Returning to the Minister’s old department, what action is the Department of Health taking to encourage GPs to obey the guidance agreed in 2016? Clearly, as demonstrated by my noble friend Lord Attlee, both GPs and the police are not following the guidance. They want to charge fees when it was agreed that no fees would be charged on initial application.

On another point, in declaring something of an interest, can the Minister confirm that the mental health check will apply to everybody with access to the gun cabinet? It is hugely important for not just the person who owns the rifle or shotgun but for anybody with access to the cabinet as well. People often store other things in those cabinets. In my personal experience, we stored my wife’s jewellery in the shotgun cabinet. It was the safe lock-up. She therefore had access to it and to a gun to commit suicide—she was not going to kill anybody else. I do not believe that her suicide could ever have been prevented, but it would not have happened with a shotgun if she had had to undergo a medical test. Can my noble friend confirm that point for me?

Lord Ribeiro Portrait Lord Ribeiro (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I apologise for not having been present for Second Reading and for speaking from the wrong side of the Room.

I will give you a medical perspective, as medicine has been mentioned and is very much part of this. I am holding a letter I got from the Hampshire Constabulary when I applied for my firearm renewal. It says:

“Thank you for your application for the renewal of a firearm and shotgun certificate. In your application you have disclosed that you have glaucoma.


To suffer from a medical condition of any kind does not preclude you from possessing a firearm. When considering application for Firearm or Shotgun Certificates the Chief Officer of Police has a statutory responsibility to ensure that people wishing to possess firearms can do so without being a danger to public safety or to the peace.


To enable the application to progress we require a medical report from your General Practitioner … detailing the background to your condition, the effects it may have and a description of the medication or treatment you received and are currently receiving”.


That is pretty clear on what the police require. It goes on to say:

“Any physical or mental condition that may affect your ability to possess and use firearms safely should be declared”.


Here it diverges slightly from the nine conditions listed in the 2016 Act, in that it includes,

“mental health disorder, epilepsy, stroke, stress related illness, depression, alcoholism, substance use or dependency”,

which are all in the nine conditions, but it then mysteriously adds heart disease and cancer. I could not really see the relevance of that. It goes on to say:

“This list is not definitive”.


I read that out because we already have a pretty stringent process with the police.

In answer to the question about the cabinets, I remember that when I had my cabinet inspected by the police, they came to the house, had a look and asked, “Who has responsibility for and possession of the key? Does anybody else have access to this key? Yes, you can put your wife’s jewellery in there”—I do from time to time—“but technically she should not know where the key is”. That addresses that point.

I have permission from my GP to give noble Lords some idea of the process that GPs go through in doing this. First, the GP will see you—my GP is a senior practitioner in her practice. All the requests are initially screened by the administrative staff, who then pass them on to the GP. The GP makes time to review the patient’s records and checks the history and the paper records—increasingly, these are electronic—for any relevant correspondence or letters that come through and any prescribed medication. The GP then has to make a judgment as to whether there is a risk. If no risk is identified, a relevant code is added to the notes. Administration then takes over the case. It is filed away and an invoice is made—in my case, for £15; we have heard the variations in the cost. If a risk is identified, a report is produced and sent to the police. GPs inevitably get the blame if the application fails. The patient’s record is flagged with an encoded reminder or marker. Should a relevant medical condition occur over the five years of the licence’s term, there is a visible reminder that the patient has a firearm or shotgun certificate.

My GP notes that although this should be straightforward, many reminders relating to other data collections come into their systems and must be dealt with, and that GPs must cope with an element of reminder fatigue. From time to time, an alert may go unnoticed; that is human error but it does happen. I know that the BMA is reported as being against flagging notices, citing a lack of clear protocol for their removal, but the 2016 firearms licensing law requires GPs to place that reminder code in the patient’s notes. That is a very clear statement and GPs should be doing it.

My GP also noted that in the context of extending the period to 10 years for those with mental illnesses, which is being mooted at the moment, GPs would like much more prominent markers so that they can associate a developing mental illness with the person holding a firearm or shotgun certificate. Mental illness is the one real area of concern for general practitioners here. GPs want a much more prominent marker to be flagged up on their screens when this situation arises.

The firearms licences and medical evidence factsheet being produced identifies who should pay fees and when that payment should be made. Where the applicant has declared a medical condition on the application form, as I did, a fee would be expected. If a further medical report is required, the police must pay. During the normal course of validating a certificate, the GP initially checks the patient’s records. There is no current expectation of a fee being submitted, but as noble Lords will know, there has been variability in the amount of fees charged. In some cases, the charging of fees as high as £200 for just an initial check has been reported in Scotland. We must address that lack of conformity now. We should suggest a standard fee equivalent to the charge for a heavy goods vehicle licence, as mentioned by my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury, right across England and Wales.

Providing firearms reports for the police is part of a GP’s job but not of their core general medical services, so they have freedom to charge if they wish to. GPs are under considerable pressure to get this right. The system is in place and is effective. We need clear systems for flagging up critical medical problems to which GPs can respond. I support the amendment.

Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, as I have said before, it is crucial that the Government get this right. I hope that they will put some energy behind it. I say to my noble friend that the answer to a plague of rabbits is not a .22 rifle but a pack of Sporting Lucas terriers.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I will speak very briefly. The amendment is clearly a good addition. We certainly want consistency on medical checks, police checks and how people look at this issue. Without that, we will have problems. That cannot be right. We want to ensure that people’s suitability to have a weapon is assessed, and to know that this is done to the highest possible standards. We are all clear on that. Where we have inconsistency, we have problems. I support the amendment and I hope that the Minister will respond positively to the issues raised.

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury for raising this issue. His amendment would place a duty on the Secretary of State to,

“within the period of six months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed, publish a report on how the Government’s Guide on Firearms Licensing Law (April 2016) is being implemented”.

The Home Office has published guidance on firearms licensing law for many years. The latest edition was published in 2016 and is currently undergoing revision to take account of recent legislative changes. It is an important document as it assists police forces in applying firearms law.

The Government want to ensure consistency of approach and high standards for police firearms licensing, and for this reason, we introduced the power to issue statutory firearms guidance in the Policing and Crime Act 2017. The new statutory guidance will apply to issues such as background checks, medical suitability and other criteria aimed at protecting public safety. We will be holding a public consultation shortly on the introduction of the new statutory guidance.

The amendment moved by my noble friend indicates a particular interest in the medical aspects of the firearms guidance, and in the engagement by GPs with the information-sharing arrangements which were agreed and introduced in 2016. These arrangements were brought in to help ensure that police would have sight of relevant medical information about certificate holders and applicants, to safeguard both licensed gun holders and other members of the public.

19:15
My noble friend would like to see an assessment of the response from GPs, specifically in relation to those who refuse to provide medical information, together with an assessment of the fees being charged and of the number of encoded reminders, or firearms markers, placed on the patient record. The statutory guidance which is being introduced, and which will set out the medical arrangements for firearms, will apply to the police, but not to GPs. In answer to my noble friend Lord Caithness’s question, the Home Office cannot, for example, direct GPs to charge a particular fee for medical information being supplied. Whether a charge is levied by a GP, and the level of any fee, is ultimately a matter between the firearms applicant and their GP, as GPs are, as we are all aware, independent practitioners.
Nevertheless, we recognise that there is variation in how GPs respond to police requests for information, in the fees they charge for such information and in the approach they take to the placing of the firearms marker on patient records. When the 2016 voluntary arrangements were introduced, it was recognised that these would need to be reviewed and that further measures might be necessary. Therefore, the Government are continuing to engage with representatives of the medical profession about how to improve the information- sharing arrangements between GPs and the police so that they operate as effectively as possible.
In his speech at Second Reading, my noble friend Lord Caithness referred to proposals made by the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Shooting and Conservation about the medical arrangements. I can reassure him that those proposals will be considered, together with the views from the police, medical professionals and others. The Government will be holding a consultation shortly on the draft statutory guidance, including the medical content, and we will take into account the evidence received about the engagement of GPs in the information-sharing arrangements. I encourage my noble friend, and indeed all other noble Lords who have an interest in this issue, to respond to the consultation.
My noble friend Lord Caithness also proposed that the police should request medical information not only about the applicant, but about anyone who has access to the relevant gun cabinet. The current position is that firearms and shotguns must be held securely so that only the certificate holder has access. However, I understand the point made by my noble friend, and we will consider whether it is an appropriate issue to include in the consultation. In view of this forthcoming consultation, I hope my noble friend will agree that his amendment is unnecessary in practice, and that he will therefore be content to withdraw it.
Earl of Caithness Portrait The Earl of Caithness
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my noble friend for what he said, particularly on the point I raised. I want to press him on the consultation. We have been told “soon”, “shortly” and “in the near future”. Can he give a specific date? It would be helpful if a date could be announced before Report.

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I have a partial answer for my noble friend. The consultation will be launched after Royal Assent, but I am sure that the spirit of that undertaking is as soon as possible after Royal Assent.

Earl of Shrewsbury Portrait The Earl of Shrewsbury
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am most grateful to my noble friend for his response. I am somewhat disappointed because this has been hanging around for a long while and action needs to be taken. I find it incredible that, in a modern country such as ours, the Home Office and general practitioners cannot come to some sort of agreement for a level playing field on fees. It seems such a simple thing to do. Most people in commerce and industry would try to agree this sort of thing every day. I will read my noble friend’s words and I reserve the right to talk to him again about this, but I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 75 withdrawn
Amendment 76
Moved by
76: After Clause 31, insert the following new Clause—
“Impact assessment of section 31
(1) Section 31 may only come into force if a Minister of the Crown has laid before Parliament an assessment of its impact on different racial groups as defined in section 9 of the Equality Act 2010 (race).(2) The impact assessment must be conducted by a body independent of the Government following consultation with representatives of different racial groups.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause would require an independent assessment of the impact of searches in schools and further education premises on different racial groups.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, Amendment 76 would add a new clause to the Bill which would require a Minister of the Crown to lay before Parliament an assessment of the impact of Clause 31 before it comes into force. This is important because Clause 31 gives the police powers to search schools or further education premises for corrosive substances. That is an additional power for the police.

The worry is that this will disproportionately affect BAME children and young people who we know are already more likely to be stopped and searched, and that is something we must be aware of before the measure comes into force.

The equality statement on the policy does not appear to contain any specific analysis of the likely equality impact of the extension of the investigative and enforcement powers. Perhaps the Minister will comment on that in her response. This is about getting the balance right. We must get things in proportion and take care not to damage relations between the black community and the police. I beg to move.

Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, we need to ensure that the police have appropriate powers to deal with threats on school or further education premises involving corrosive substances. Given the significant harm that corrosive attacks can cause and the fear that they can instil, it is important that we ensure that the police have sufficient powers to be able to take swift and preventive action.

We know that there are around 800 attacks per year in England and Wales, and we need to ensure that action can be taken not just to deal with actual attacks but with threats to use a corrosive substance. Clause 31 is designed to ensure that the police can effectively enforce the offence of threatening with a corrosive substance in a private place as it applies to schools and further education establishments.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, has explained his concerns that this new power will be disproportionately used against black, Asian and minority ethnic pupils and students. I appreciate and understand the noble Lord’s concern, which should be taken seriously. It is, however, important to recognise that this power can be used only in circumstances where a police officer has reasonable grounds for suspecting that someone has been threatened by another person with a corrosive substance. Reasonable grounds might include a report from a teacher, a parent or a pupil.

It is also important that we ensure there are sufficient protections in place for our schools and further education premises to deal with any situations where a pupil or student may threaten to throw or squirt a corrosive substance over another student or a teacher. The police need to be able to enter and search a school or further education premises and any person on them to prevent an actual attack. That said, I have indicated that the noble Lord has raised a perfectly proper concern.

While I do not consider this amendment to be necessary, I can give your Lordships an undertaking that we will consult relevant school and further education bodies, including teaching unions, local authorities and other associations, on the implementation of this power before we bring the clause into force. With that assurance, I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

Baroness Hamwee Portrait Baroness Hamwee (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, before the noble Lord replies, I had read this clause as primarily directed to the power to enter and search premises—in fact you have to do that—as well as a person. Can the Minister assure the Committee that, as well as the consultation she has mentioned, information and statistics will be kept that show the BAME profiles? I should not use the word “profile”, but the Minister will understand what I am saying. This is an issue we have brought up at other points in the Bill.

Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am glad to be able to reassure the noble Baroness that that will be the case.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Minister for her response, which was very helpful. At this stage, I am happy to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 76 withdrawn.
Amendment 77 not moved.
Clause 32: Prohibition of certain firearms etc: England and Wales and Scotland
Amendment 78 not moved.
Amendment 78A had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.
Amendments 78B and 79 not moved.
Clause 32 agreed.
Clause 33: Prohibition of certain firearms etc: Northern Ireland
Amendments 79A to 80 not moved.
Clause 33 agreed.
Amendments 80A to 80D not moved.
Clause 34 agreed.
Schedule 2 agreed.
Clause 35: Surrender of prohibited firearms etc
Amendments 80E to 80J not moved.
Clause 35 agreed.
19:30
Amendment 80K
Moved by
80K: After Clause 35, insert the following new Clause—
“Payments in respect of converted or deactivated firearms other than bump stocks
(1) This section applies to firearms of the kind referred to in—(a) the paragraph to be inserted into section 5(1) of the Firearms Act 1968 by section 32(2), or(b) the sub-paragraph to be inserted into Article 45(1) of the Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2004 (SI 2004/702 (NI 3)) by section 33(2).(2) A person making a claim and who was entitled to have in their possession on or immediately before 20 June 2018, by virtue of a firearm certificate held by them or by virtue of being a registered firearms dealer, a firearm described at subsection (1) above and who—(a) opts to retain it after either modification into bolt action form or deactivation, and(b) provides documentary evidence within one month of the start of the surrender period to the Chief Officer of Police who issued his or her firearm certificate of the transfer of the rifle to a registered firearms dealer with an appropriately conditioned section 5 authority, and(c) on completion of the modification or deactivation, provides documentary evidence thereof to the Chief Officer of Police who issued his or her firearm certificate,shall receive payment from the Secretary of State equivalent to the cost of modification or deactivation.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is intended to provide compensation to those who opt to have modified to straight-pull bolt action form, or to have deactivated, MARS and Lever-Release rifles prohibited under this Bill.
Earl of Shrewsbury Portrait The Earl of Shrewsbury
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, Amendment 80K deals with compensation. My intention with this amendment is to ask my noble friend the Minister two things. First, will he confirm that in the event of MARS and lever-release rifles becoming prohibited compensation will be paid, as stated in the Government’s policy statement? Secondly, will compensation will be provided to cover the cost of modifications for those who modify to straight-pull bolt action or deactivate? I beg to move.

Earl Attlee Portrait Earl Attlee
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, if I may make an observation, if we still had the Firearms Consultative Committee, which was so well-chaired by my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury, and before that by Lord Kimball, we would have identified that we had a problem with the MARS and lever-action release system. The problem could have been snuffed out fairly early on by the committee advising the Home Secretary to ban them. The Home Secretary could then have made a Written Ministerial Statement saying that they were to be banned, and that compensation would no longer be payable for anything bought after that Statement was made. Will my noble friend the Minister consider reinstating the Firearms Consultative Committee, or something similar, so that we do not have a similar problem? Officials are shaking their heads, so I suspect that I will get a negative answer.

Earl of Shrewsbury Portrait The Earl of Shrewsbury
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Well you must be right then.

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, it is fair and right that owners of previously legally-held firearms, who voluntarily hand these weapons over to the police for safe disposal, should be properly compensated. The purpose of the surrender and payment provisions in the Bill are directed to that end.

Amendment 80K seeks to extend these compensation arrangements such that compensation would be payable to owners who choose to modify their rifles, or indeed deactivate them, so that they may lawfully retain them. The reason for the payment scheme in the Bill is to rightfully compensate owners for the value they lose when surrendering these rifles to the police. My noble friend Lord Shrewsbury has suggested that owners may look to modify their rifle to a straight-pull bolt action function and therefore retain it on a section 1 certificate. We are not against this; individuals are perfectly within their right to do so. However, it is one thing to compensate owners of these weapons where they are deprived of their property, and quite a different proposition to expect the state to pay for their conversion or deactivation. We are seeking to remove these potentially dangerous rifles from our streets, and it is right that the Government should use public money to compensate only those individuals who surrender their prohibited rifles.

The arrangements covering compensation payments for firearms made unlawful by the Bill will be set out in regulations. I hope noble Lords will have had an opportunity to read the draft regulations which my noble friend Lady Williams circulated late last week. These regulations will be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, so in due course they will have to be debated and approved by both Houses before they can take effect.

There is clearly a balance to be struck here, taking into account the proper use of public funds. It is the Government’s view that compensation should only be paid to those who surrender firearms prohibited by the Bill. If an owner instead chooses to modify or decommission one of these firearms, such that it may continue to be lawfully held, that is a matter for them, but it would not be right for such modifications or decommissioning to take place at taxpayers’ expense. Given that explanation, which I am sure will come as a disappointment to my noble friend—I am sorry about that—I ask him to withdraw his amendment and support Clause 36 standing part of the Bill.

Earl of Shrewsbury Portrait The Earl of Shrewsbury
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, at least I get 10 points for trying. I am most grateful to my noble friend the Minister for what he said, and I understand it all. Having been around at the time of Dunblane, and through other guns being prohibited and compensation being given, I understand where he is coming from. If I may ask one further question, with compensation being paid for the guns which are to be handed in—if the Government go ahead and ban them—does this include compensation on manufacturing equipment for the businesses that manufacture these guns? I know that it does not include ammunition, but does it include manufacturing and the stock held?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am advised that the compensation will embrace ancillary equipment unique to the weapons concerned.

Earl of Shrewsbury Portrait The Earl of Shrewsbury
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am most grateful. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 80K withdrawn.
Clauses 36 to 38 agreed.
Clause 39: Interpretation of sections 32 to 38
Amendments 80L and 80M not moved.
Clause 39 agreed.
Amendments 81 and 82
Moved by
81: After Clause 39, insert the following new Clause—
“Enforcement of offences relating to sale etc of offensive weapons
(1) A local weights and measures authority may enforce within its area a provision listed in subsection (2).(2) The provisions mentioned in subsection (1) are—(a) section 1(1) of the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959 (penalties for offences in connection with dangerous weapons),(b) section 1 of the Crossbows Act 1987 (sale etc of crossbows to persons under 18),(c) section 141(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (offensive weapons),(d) section 141A of that Act (sale etc of bladed articles to persons under 18), (e) section 1 of the Knives Act 1997 (unlawful marketing of knives),(f) section 2 of that Act (publication of unlawful marketing material relating to knives),(g) section 1 of this Act (sale of corrosive products to persons under 18),(h) section 3 of this Act (delivery of corrosive products to residential premises etc),(i) section 4 of this Act (delivery of corrosive products to persons under 18),(j) section 17 of this Act (delivery of bladed products to residential premises etc), and(k) section 20 of this Act (delivery of bladed articles to persons under 18).(3) For the investigatory powers available to a local weights and measures authority for the purposes of enforcing a provision listed in subsection (2), see Schedule 5 to the Consumer Rights Act 2015.(4) Nothing in this section is to be construed as authorising a local weights and measures authority to bring proceedings in Scotland for an offence.(5) In paragraph 10 of Schedule 5 to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (duties and powers to which Schedule 5 applies), at the appropriate place insert “section (Enforcement of offences relating to sale etc of offensive weapons) of the Offensive Weapons Act 2019”.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause would confer the investigatory powers in Schedule 5 to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 on Trading Standards for the purposes of enforcing various existing and new offences relating to offensive weapons.
82: After Clause 39, insert the following new Clause—
“Application of Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008
In Schedule 3 to the Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008 (relevant enactments for the purposes of relevant functions to which Parts 1 and 2 of that Act apply) at the appropriate places insert— “Criminal Justice Act 1988, sections 141(1) and 141A”;“Offensive Weapons Act 2019, sections 1, 3, 4, 17 and 20”;“Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959, section 1(1)”.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause would apply Parts 1 and 2 of the Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008 to enforcement of the provisions listed in subsection (2) of the first new Clause to be inserted after Clause 39, to the extent that Part 1 or 2 of that Act does not otherwise apply in relation to those provisions.
Amendments 81 and 82 agreed.
Amendment 83
Moved by
83: After Clause 39, insert the following new Clause—
“Advertising offensive weapons online
(1) A person or company commits an offence when a website registered in their name is used to advertise, list or otherwise facilitate the sale of any weapon listed in Schedule 1 to the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order (SI 1988/2019) or any offensive weapon capable of being disguised as something else.(2) No offence is committed under this section if the website removes the advertisement or list within 24 hours of the registered owner of the website being informed that the advertisement or list includes a weapon listed in Schedule 1 to the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order (SI 1988/2019) or an offensive weapon capable of being disguised as something else. (3) A registered owner of a website who is guilty of an offence under subsection (1) is liable—(a) on summary conviction in England and Wales, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 51 weeks, to a fine or to both;(b) on summary conviction in Scotland or Northern Ireland, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause would place responsibility on website owners to prevent the sale of weapons.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, Amendment 83 would insert a new clause into the Bill to make the owner of a website, be that an individual or a company, responsible for ensuring that weapons listed in Schedule 1 to the Criminal Justice Act are not advertised on their site. The Bill places responsibilities on shop workers, delivery people and others; making website owners responsible for their content should be welcomed by the Government. I asked a similar Question today about anonymous accounts and the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, made the point that when people are made responsible, things happen. If they are not responsible, they will do nothing. There should be consequences. In some ways, this is in a similar area.

Subsection (2) of the proposed new clause would provide for the owner to have committed no offence if, within 24 hours of being notified of the advertisement, they arrange for it to be removed. Then there would be no problems whatever. In some cases, there is a defence under Section 19 of the Electronic Commerce (EC Directive) Regulations 2002, but that depends on the facts of the case. I accept entirely that there can be jurisdictional issues if the provider is based overseas.

This is only a probing amendment to highlight an issue that is part of a much wider problem, which I asked a Question about today: how we control what is on the internet and how we deal with such issues. These are serious matters. I hope that the government White Paper will deal with some of them, but I seek to include a clause in the Bill to make owners responsible for the content on their site and the adverts they place. I beg to move.

Lord Paddick Portrait Lord Paddick
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I understand what the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, is trying to do with the amendment. It raises again the issue of websites that are hosted overseas and the lack of territorial reach to apply the suggested offence to overseas website owners. That creates an imbalance, as we discussed on previous elements of the Bill, between UK and overseas sellers of knives and corrosive substances, for example. I see some practical difficulties with this but I understand what the noble Lord is trying to achieve.

Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful for the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, which seeks to make it a criminal offence when,

“a website … is used to advertise, list or otherwise facilitate the sale of any weapon listed in Schedule 1 to the Criminal Justice Act 1988 … or any offensive weapon capable of being disguised as something else”.

We can all agree on the spirit of the amendment. Indeed, in preparing my remarks, I spent five minutes googling what I could buy online. The noble Lord makes a good point: some very shocking weapons are easily accessible online. However, I hope to persuade him that his amendment is not needed.

We are satisfied that there is no gap in the law and that legislation addressing the criminal behaviour outlined in the amendment already exists. Indeed, the noble Lord alluded to that in his remarks. The Minister for Crime, Safeguarding and Vulnerability wrote to the Public Bill Committee in the other place to set out the legal position on online platforms that advertise or sell offensive weapons in contravention of Section 141 or Section 141A of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. It may assist your Lordships if I set out the position.

Section 141 of the Act states that,

“any person who manufactures, sells or hires or offers for sale or hire, exposes or has in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire, or lends or gives to any other person, a weapon to which this section applies shall be guilty of an offence”.

A list of such weapons is set out in Schedule 1 to the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988. Section 141A of the 1988 Act makes it an offence to sell certain articles with a blade or point to anyone aged under 18. Clause 1 of the Bill will make it an offence also to sell corrosive products to a person aged under 18. As is clear from these provisions, anyone who sells, hires, offers for sale or hire, exposes or has in their possession for the purpose of sale or hire any of the weapons to which the 1988 order applies—whether online or otherwise—is guilty of an offence. This would apply to individuals, but “a person” can include a body corporate or unincorporated, such as a company.

Where the user of a website places advertisements or listings for anything contained in the 1988 order on that website, the service provider may rely on the defence in relation to hosting under Regulation 19 of the Electronic Commerce (EC Directive) Regulations 2002, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. Whether Regulation 19 applies will depend on the facts of the case. As the noble Lord mentioned, there may also be jurisdictional issues if the service provider is based overseas. I assure noble Lords that the sites I found were all based overseas. Regulation 19 will not apply where the provider of the website is offering the items for sale directly and where the provider had actual knowledge of the unlawful activity and upon obtaining that knowledge did not act expeditiously to remove or disable access to the information.

We therefore consider that the provider of a website who sells items on it directly would likely be caught under the wording of the legislation. Where the provider of the website is enabling advertisements to be placed by others, the defence under Regulation 19 may be available. We have discussed the matter with the Crown Prosecution Service, which is of the view that these provisions can be used to prosecute where appropriate. In the light of this explanation of the existing law, I hope that the noble Lord will be content to withdraw his amendment.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Minister for her helpful response. I tabled the amendment to highlight the problems in this area. It was good to hear that there are already provisions in place to deal with these matters. I look forward in due course to the Government’s White Paper on the wider debate on the internet, the good that it does and how we deal with its bad side. At this stage, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 83 withdrawn.
Committee adjourned at 7.45 pm.

House of Lords

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
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Wednesday 6 February 2019
15:00
Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Lincoln.

Migrant Crossings: Naval Assets

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
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Question
15:06
Asked by
Lord West of Spithead Portrait Lord West of Spithead
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government what has been the total cost charged by the Ministry of Defence to the Home Office for the use of HMS Mersey and naval assets in the Channel since 1 January.

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
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My Lords, the deployment of the Royal Navy vessel is an interim measure while the two Border Force cutters currently redeployed from overseas make their way back to UK waters. To date, this has cost £700,000. The deployment is funded by the Home Office and will be kept under constant review.

Lord West of Spithead Portrait Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
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I thank the Minister for her Answer. This operation has been a complete and utter shambles. That is a real worry because, as we move towards Brexit, the need to patrol our territorial seas and enforce our laws both there and in our exclusive economic zone is going to become greater. Who on earth is co-ordinating this? In the Navy we have a nice tradition where occasionally we shoot a senior officer to encourage the others. This might be a perfect candidate for the case. We have in place a joint maritime operations centre, which has all the departments there. Why can we not fully fund it and put a person in charge—a naval officer or whoever, I do not care—who can co-ordinate our shortage of assets to do the things we need to do? This is only going to cost a couple of million, which is not that much in the big order of things.

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
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The noble Lord is absolutely right to point out that as we approach Brexit we should be mindful of some of the events that might happen around it. We will shortly have a director in post at JMOCC, which I hope gives him some comfort. The nature of a crisis would determine the co-ordination response.

Lord Paddick Portrait Lord Paddick (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the Minister will have seen a report in the Sunday Times that the Government have reduced a promised £22 million towards a public health approach to tackling knife crime to £17 million. Is that where the Home Office found the money to pay the Ministry of Defence? If so, can she explain why the Government see keeping desperate refugees out of the UK a priority over saving the lives of British youngsters on our streets?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
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My Lords, when I saw the article in the Sunday Times, I realised it was wrong. The noble Lord is absolutely right to state that £22 million was committed. It still is committed; £17 million of it has already been allocated. That is not to say that the additional £5 million will not be forthcoming, because it will. In terms of desperate refugees, I think he might be referring to the PNQ that he is about to ask, but these are serious criminals.

Lord Hamilton of Epsom Portrait Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)
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My Lords, can my noble friend tell us why we need expensive naval ships to escort immigrants, who may be in sinking boats, to our ports?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the nature of the event was such that the two cutters to which the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, referred were undergoing maintenance at the time. Yes, there has been a temporary deployment of a Navy ship. It is not cheap—I agree with my noble friend on that—but the two cutters will soon be back in action.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, can the Minister assure the House that the Home Secretary’s decision has not left us vulnerable elsewhere in the world? What is being done to break up the operations of these criminals and catch the people smugglers, whose reckless actions are putting people’s lives at risk?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, an awful lot of work is going on to stop the movement of people across the water—recently it has been in the channel, where the waters are very dangerous indeed. The noble Lord might like to know that as recently as the last couple of weeks, the Home Secretary met Minister Castaner to discuss bilateral co-operation on maintaining our waters and keeping people safe when they make those terrible journeys across the channel.

Lord Green of Deddington Portrait Lord Green of Deddington (CB)
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My Lords, is the Minister aware that most of these refugees crossing the channel are from Iran, and that their chance of staying in the UK, whether permission is granted or not, is 97%? Would it not therefore be better to have a really effective way of differentiating between genuine refugees and economic migrants, and making sure that the latter are returned?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
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The noble Lord is correct about the high percentage of Iranians. His second point is right too, and that is what we are trying to achieve.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Portrait Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
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My Lords, as part of its contingency planning for a crash-out no-deal Brexit, is the Home Office preparing measures to discourage British citizens from leaving the country?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
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No, my Lords, we are not.

Lord Alton of Liverpool Portrait Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
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My Lords, will the Minister reconsider the Written Answer she gave me last week about some of the Iranians who have fled their own country because of persecution, or even because they were facing execution for reasons such as religious belief or coming from particularly at-risk minorities? She said that it would be impossible to carry out a manual count of those who have come across the channel and look at the reasons why they have come, to identify whether they are economic migrants or genuine refugees fleeing persecution.

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

When I wrote to the noble Lord saying that we could not do that, it was simply because the data was not available to disaggregate, but I will look at his Written Question again and see whether I can give him any further information.

Social Media: Online Anonymity

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
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Question
15:12
Asked by
Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking, or intend to take, to deal with online abuse by people using anonymous social media accounts.

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)
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My Lords, online anonymity is an important part of a free and open internet—but being anonymous online does not give anyone the right to abuse others. The Government have made it clear that more needs to be done to tackle all kinds of online abuse. We will publish a joint DCMS-Home Office White Paper this winter, setting out a range of legislative and non-legislative measures and establishing clear standards for tech companies to help keep UK citizens safe.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
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My Lords, does the Minister accept and understand the huge concern of law-abiding citizens that people are hiding behind anonymous accounts and making threats to kill, to rape, to assault and to bully, using racist, anti-Semitic and Islamophobic language? The platforms that host these people have done nowhere near enough to deal with this problem. If they will not get their own house in order, the Government must make them, through legislation. Will the Minister impress on his colleagues in government that the forthcoming White Paper must make that clear to them?

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
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I am happy to be able to agree with the noble Lord. Let us be clear: when abuse exceeds the threshold and moves into criminality, in most cases so-called anonymous perpetrators are actually traceable, so they can be prosecuted according to the law. I recognise the public disquiet about this, and, as the noble Lord said, we are considering what more can be done, by non-legislative means but also, when required, by legislation—and there will be legislation. We will consider what to do about anonymous abuse specifically, and we will address that in the online harms White Paper, which, as I said, is due out this winter.

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Portrait Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
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My Lords, does my noble friend recall that we got a dramatic improvement in attitudes towards health and safety when we made the directors of the company personally liable for it? Should we not do the same for internet service providers?

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
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One of the things we are considering is a duty of care. That might include holding directors personally responsible. We have not decided that yet, but it is certainly an idea worth considering. As it is a White Paper that is coming out this winter, there will be a consultation on it, so we welcome views from my noble friend.

Lord Clement-Jones Portrait Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the Law Commission, in its scoping report last November into abusive and online communications, said that one of the key barriers to the pursuit of online defenders was,

“tracing and proving the identity of perpetrators, and the cost of doing so”.

I heard what the Minister said about the White Paper’s contents, but will the Government include a provision allowing the stripping of anonymity in circumstances of online crime? Have the Government had any discussions with the police or other enforcement agencies to understand the issues they face in tracking these perpetrators and bringing them to justice?

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is certainly something worth considering in the White Paper, but as far as dealing with the police is concerned, the Home Office is working with policing to identify ways to tackle this when it goes over the threshold into criminality. These are relatively new crimes; the police will have to evolve methods to deal with them. We have also worked with the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. There is a digital intelligence investigation programme, aiming to ensure policing has the ability to investigate the digital elements of all crime types. Also, the Home Office is working with the College of Policing to drive improvements in overall police capability to investigate and prosecute online offences.

Lord Campbell-Savours Portrait Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)
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My Lords, going back to the Minster’s original response, in what sense does he believe anonymity helps freedom of speech?

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
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If, for example, you are in an authoritarian regime—

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I said “if”—we do not think only about this country. That is one example. If you are a 15 year-old girl who is being abused, being able to go on to the internet to ask for health advice or let people know about it is an example of where anonymity can sometimes help.

Baroness Fall Portrait Baroness Fall (Con)
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My Lords, our children grow up in a world that is under huge pressure from social media. They never get a day, or, indeed, a night off. This is a world where no one seems to take accountability or responsibility for what is said at all. While we all argue among ourselves about what to do, I urge the Minister and those drawing up the White Paper to start with the simple but powerful principle of transparency. We should not allow people to hide behind the veil of anonymity.

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
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As I said, sometimes anonymity is the right thing, but I take on board what my noble friend says. We definitely believe that tech and social media companies need to take more responsibility. We have said that. The Secretary of State plans to visit them to outline some of the measures we propose to take. There is absolutely no doubt that there is general feeling in the public that something needs to be done to control these large social media companies. People have to take responsibility. We will make sure that that happens, with legislation if necessary.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Portrait Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
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My Lords, will the Minister get a copy of the speech made today by Tom Watson, the deputy leader of the Labour Party, on this subject, and consider each of his proposals carefully?

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
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As I said earlier, this is a White Paper and we are having a consultation. We certainly welcome views from everyone. I will make sure that the letter is looked at in the department—I probably will not even have to tell them to do that. However, we are trying to build a consensus. We have to take into account libertarian views, the need to preserve innovation for tech companies—which is so useful to our economy—and to protect vulnerable people, especially children.

Lord Hogan-Howe Portrait Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)
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My Lords, could we return to the issue of policing resources, which was alluded to earlier? There are two areas which have serious concerns for the police and also, therefore, perhaps for the Government. One is the recovery of digital evidence, which has already proved challenging in rape cases and other sexual offences where mobile phones have to be examined in great detail. The second point is that this is a people process as well as a hardware process. Both require lots of people, and at the moment, this explosion of criminal offences means that it is demanding an awful lot of people and cost at a time when police numbers are dropping. It is something that the Government have to consider seriously.

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
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Regarding the first part of the noble Lord’s question, we are supporting the Digital Public Contact, which will deliver a single online home for policing and provide a secure digital channel for the public to upload evidential material in a digital format. I have explained what we are doing with the College of Policing.

As for the second part of the noble Lord’s question, my noble friend the Home Office Minister is sitting next to me and I am sure has listened to his point.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
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My Lords, are the Government really prepared to take these companies on? I pray in aid the Government’s approach to getting them to pay proper tax in this country. Despite the huffing and puffing we have heard from the Chancellor, no action has been taken. Can the Minister assure me that the Government are prepared to take them on?

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
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In the area that we are responsible for, regarding online harms and safety, we are. As far as tax is concerned, that is a different matter and I do not have the responsibility for it. However, I am sure that the Chancellor will listen to the noble Lord’s views.

Railways: Dawlish

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
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Question
15:22
Asked by
Lord Berkeley Portrait Lord Berkeley
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress has been made in improving the resilience of the railway line at Dawlish towards south Devon and Cornwall since the two-month disruption beginning on 5 February 2014.

Baroness Sugg Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)
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My Lords, Network Rail has worked to develop long-term solutions to make the railway at Dawlish and Teignmouth more resilient to extreme weather, engaging an expert team of tunnel, cliff and railway engineers. This is part of a £15 million investment provided by the Government. The first phase of work to protect the sea wall began in November, with essential repairs now completed to four breakwaters. Following engagement with local stakeholders in autumn last year, Network Rail has now submitted plans for a new, stronger sea wall at Dawlish.

Lord Berkeley Portrait Lord Berkeley (Lab)
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I am grateful to the Minister for that reply, and am sure the House will wish to congratulate Network Rail on the way it recovered from that terrible accident five years ago where the track was waving in the air with nothing underneath it. However, is the Minister aware that already this winter services have been disrupted on 10 occasions—sometimes because the tide is just over the tracks and the tracks are buried? One solution might be for the Secretary of State to play King Canute, but I am sure he would not want to do that. The alternative is to encourage Network Rail with some funding to go ahead with the issues that the Minister mentioned. Also, will she start looking at the process of reopening the Okehampton-Tavistock line, to provide a better service to Plymouth and Cornwall for when the line by the sea is disrupted?

Baroness Sugg Portrait Baroness Sugg
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I join the noble Lord in congratulating Network Rail and the orange army who did such a great job of recovery after the storms more than five years ago. We have been clear that ongoing investment in the south-west transport infrastructure is a key priority, and we remain determined to find a permanent solution for Dawlish. As I said, £15 million of funding has been made available, and world-leading engineers have been carrying out detailed assessments. Network Rail is making good progress on its plans, and we are considering them carefully.

On the noble Lord’s point about the regular Okehampton service, we are working closely with the local councils on that. We responded to the future of the Great Western franchise consultation last August, and are looking into what scope of work will be needed to reinstate regular services on that route.

Lord Snape Portrait Lord Snape (Lab)
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My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is not just the track that has been a problem, but the trains? Does she agree that the wretched Voyager trains used on this stretch of line are completely unsuitable for the journeys they undertake daily? Cancellations and short running take place every week, and as the 40 year-old British Rail-built high-speed trains are now coming off lease, why do the Government not modernise them and replace the Voyagers with properly built trains that would be far more comfortable for travel between Aberdeen and Penzance than the toy trains there are at present?

Baroness Sugg Portrait Baroness Sugg
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My Lords, the noble Lord is right to point to the issues we have had on that track: when there are high waves and sea spray close to the track the Voyager trains cannot run, as they have brake resistors on top. CrossCountry is working to assess whether there might be engineering solutions that would enable the Voyager class to operate through Dawlish in those challenging conditions. We are also looking into providing further additional rolling stock, but the Government and franchise operators are investing heavily in new, improved trains.

Lord Teverson Portrait Lord Teverson (LD)
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My Lords, the economies of west Devon, Plymouth and Cornwall rely very much on this line. Last autumn a six-foot hole appeared under the track in the Dawlish area, so this is far from solved. Yet, despite Devon and Cornwall—regrettably—being stuffed with Tory MPs there seems to be no real action at all. Can the Minister give us a date when the fundamental structure, whether it is the line that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, refers to or the sea wall, will be completed? When will something be done?

Baroness Sugg Portrait Baroness Sugg
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My Lords, this train line has been a long-standing problem ever since it was opened in 1846—that year trains failed to run along it. We are working closely on that and although I am not able to give the noble Lord a date, we are making significant progress. Network Rail has submitted a plan that we are looking at carefully and we hope to make an announcement on it very shortly.

Lord Rosser Portrait Lord Rosser (Lab)
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First, in very bad weather, as has been said, the Voyager trains used by the CrossCountry franchise are often unable to operate west of Exeter, as electrics on the roofs of the trains are adversely affected by salt water coming over the sea wall in the Dawlish area. Will the new Hitachi trains being introduced on the line also be adversely affected by salt water coming over the sea wall? Secondly, Network Rail’s plan for preventing sea damage is, as has been said, to build a new, higher sea wall, in respect of which it has made a planning submission to the relevant local authority, with the knowledge of the Secretary of State. We know the problem is only going to get worse as sea levels rise, so what happens if that planning application is declined? What is plan B? Or is there no plan B?

Baroness Sugg Portrait Baroness Sugg
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The noble Lord is right to point to the issues we have with CrossCountry trains. The new intercity express trains on GWR were also affected by weather along the Devon coast last week, so we are working very closely with Hitachi to find a solution. As the noble Lord pointed out, there is a planning submission in play and, as I said, we are absolutely determined to come up with a long-term solution to this problem.

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Portrait Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)
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My Lords, will the Minister clarify whether she thinks the only long-term solution is to have an alternative line from Exeter to Plymouth? Otherwise, we are perpetually trying to put right something that she acknowledges has been inappropriate since 1848.

Baroness Sugg Portrait Baroness Sugg
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Since 1846. The case for reopening the former route between Exeter and Plymouth via Okehampton and Tavistock was assessed by Network Rail in 2014. It found that there was not then a case for reopening this route in its entirety. We are doing work on that: Great Western Railway has been asked to develop proposals to reintroduce regular services between Exeter and Okehampton; and Devon County Council is progressing work to develop the case for reinstating the railway between Bere Alston and Tavistock. Delivery of these schemes may enable the full reopening of the former route in the future, subject to a viable business case being demonstrated.

Brexit: Outstanding Commitments

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
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Question
15:29
Asked by
Lord Robathan Portrait Lord Robathan
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government what agreement, if any, has been reached with the European Union concerning payment in the event of a no-deal Brexit of £39 billion for the United Kingdom’s estimated outstanding commitments.

Lord Bates Portrait The Minister of State, Department for International Development (Lord Bates) (Con)
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My Lords, the Government are committed to getting a good deal for the UK, and have agreed a fair financial settlement with the EU. Even if the UK leaves without a deal, the Government have always been clear that the UK has obligations to the EU—and that the EU has obligations to the UK—that will survive its withdrawal, and that these obligations would need to be resolved.

Lord Robathan Portrait Lord Robathan (Con)
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My Lords, I am sure everyone in the House will agree that we—be it as individuals or as a nation—should pay our debts. But I suspect that most of us would also agree that we should not pay bills when we have received nothing in exchange. I hear that the European Commission is demanding that, whatever happens—should we leave without a deal—it would expect £39 billion from us. This probably has more to do with the hole it will have in its budget when we leave, rather than anything else. Could my noble friend reassure me that we will definitely renegotiate any financial deal should we—regrettably—leave without a deal on 29 March?

Lord Bates Portrait Lord Bates
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The position on the financial settlement was that it went alongside the withdrawal agreement. It is, if you like, looking at our obligations to the EU as a result of our membership. It is not connected to the future economic partnership that we hope to negotiate with our European friends and partners. Were we not to honour that financial settlement, which is part of the withdrawal agreement, that would probably have a significant bearing on our ability to get a good deal for the UK in the future.

Baroness Kramer Portrait Baroness Kramer (LD)
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My Lords, I thoroughly agree with everything the Minister just said: if we do not honour an obligation that we signed up to, we will have difficulty negotiating a sensible deal with the EU. Does he also recognise that the way we handle this is being watched around the globe? If we are seen as people who do not meet obligations—trying to find some technical angle or way to weasel out of a commitment that we have made—we will have no chance of getting future trade agreements of any value.

Lord Bates Portrait Lord Bates
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The noble Baroness is right. We need to remember that our net contribution, because of the way it is calculated, is made up not just of what the UK sends to the European Commission but of what the European Commission sends to the UK. Therefore, there are two parties to this; both are making contributions, and both need to honour their obligations. We believe that the financial settlement does just that.

Lord Hannay of Chiswick Portrait Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)
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My Lords, would the Minister not confirm that the £39 billion was entered into in good faith by the Prime Minister and the Government in December 2017, and simply represents what the two sides—the Commission and the British Government—believe is owing in respect of various commitments over many years? If that is so, the suggestion that we do not owe this money if we leave without a deal has no basis.

Lord Bates Portrait Lord Bates
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In that sense, that is correct. The range of the figure in the financial settlement is between £35 billion and £39 billion. The OBR has put it at the top end of that range. When we went into that negotiation, one thing the European Commission wanted to do was discount the rebate, which is a significant element of our contributions and benefits the UK. That was included in the final calculations, so I believe it represents a good settlement, alongside the withdrawal agreement, and should command support on all sides of the House.

Lord Davies of Oldham Portrait Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
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My Lords, is it not right for us to assume that the majority of British people who voted to leave the European Union did so because they had a different perspective on the future of the United Kingdom—particularly on control over decisions? The idea that the country is full of animosity towards the European Union—when, after all, the initiative to leave was taken by us—is false. Therefore, the people expect us to meet the obligations that we entered into as far as the European Union is concerned.

Lord Bates Portrait Lord Bates
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I am very happy to agree with that sentiment. We want a deep, ongoing relationship with our European friends; part of that means honouring what we signed up to. This was what we signed up to at the Council meeting back in November, and we should support it.

Lord Hamilton of Epsom Portrait Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)
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My Lords, was not the £39 billion made up of our annual contributions for the two years of the implementation stage? I cannot see how we would owe that if we were to leave with no deal. Did a committee of your Lordships’ House not say that we would not owe the EU anything with no deal?

Lord Bates Portrait Lord Bates
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That position, which was taken by the House of Lords committee, was looked at by the Government, who took a different view, believing that there were obligations. They observed that there was no existing legal mechanism to enforce them, but they said that the European Union would be entitled to pursue litigation through courts to recover payments. As I say, the best way to resolve all these issues is through a deal, and through the deal that is on the table.

Lord Harris of Haringey Portrait Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
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My Lords, the Minister has been extraordinarily helpful to the House today. Maybe he could just confirm something for someone like me, who sometimes finds it very difficult to follow these arguments. Is he saying to people who say that there is some way in which we can just wave aside this £39 billion commitment, that that is bogus and misleading the British public? Can he also confirm that the British Government believe that when they have international obligations, they should meet them?

Lord Bates Portrait Lord Bates
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I agree with all of that. We certainly agree with my noble friend Lord Hamilton, who made the good point that part of the £35 billion to £39 billion covers the implementation period, which is the two years of ongoing contributions to the European Union. He is also therefore correct to point out that if we left without a deal, there would not be an implementation period, so that money would not be paid. However, there would need to be some mechanism to reach a negotiated settlement, or it would be as a result of a legal challenge in some court.

Lord West of Spithead Portrait Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
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My Lords, how will we deal with things such as the £1 billion we have invested in Galileo, which we will now not be able to use? How will that be resolved—as part of the £39 billion, or separately?

Lord Bates Portrait Lord Bates
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All these figures went into the financial settlement; that is how we arrived at those numbers. As regards our future relationship, that is a matter for the future economic framework, which, once we get the withdrawal agreement through your Lordships’ House and on to the statute book, we can look forward to negotiating with our European friends.

Deportation: Jamaica

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
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Private Notice Question
15:36
Asked by
Lord Paddick Portrait Lord Paddick
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to reports that five foreign nationals who were due to be deported to Jamaica have since been reprieved.

Lord Paddick Portrait Lord Paddick (LD)
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My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
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My Lords, it would not be appropriate to comment on individual cases, particularly those subject to ongoing legal proceedings. It may be helpful to know that a number of factors impact on a person’s planned removal from the UK. This does not mean that the original decision to remove the individual was incorrect. If barriers to their removal are resolved and they are not granted a form of leave, the person remains subject to deportation as required under the UK Borders Act 2007.

Lord Paddick Portrait Lord Paddick
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My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. Yet, lawyers representing some of those due to be deported say that the reprieve is permanent. Yesterday, I asked the Minister how the Government could be sure that those they intended to deport as foreign national offenders were actually foreign nationals, bearing in mind the mistakes that had been made with the Windrush generation. The Minister said that she had been assured that all those being deported were foreign nationals. Yesterday, in the other place, the Home Secretary said that the law required him to deport foreign nationals convicted of serious offences and that if he did not deport them, he would be breaking the law. As I say, overnight it has been reported that five of those due to be deported are no longer going to be deported. Can the Minister explain: did the Government mislead the House, or has the Home Secretary broken the law?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
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I have not misled the House, nor has the Home Secretary broken the law. I thought I had made clear in my original Answer that the original decision to remove an individual is not incorrect, but there may be factors that need to be resolved, such as fresh asylum claims and other reasons why a fresh appeal might be lodged, which might mean that someone is not deported but might ultimately be deported. Therefore, neither is true.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
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My Lords, while I accept that deportation must remain an option for the Government, some of the decisions to deport people that I have seen reported look extremely harsh. How can we be confident that the Home Office is being just in its application of the deportation policy generally?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
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My Lords, I have to say that it was under a Labour Government that the UK Borders Act 2007 was brought in. A deportation order must be made in respect of a foreign criminal sentenced to a period of more than 12 months, and we will not resile from that—I am sure the noble Lord would not expect us to do so. This was what my right honourable friend the Home Secretary was referring to when he made his comment yesterday about not wanting to break the law.

Lord Rooker Portrait Lord Rooker (Lab)
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My Lords, the implication of what the Minister said, a bit like what the Home Secretary said yesterday, is, “Oh, this is a law that Labour brought in. We are being forced to do it, because Labour did it”. If you do not agree with that law, why have you not got rid of it? Why use petty party points on a serious issue like this?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
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My Lords, there was a very good example of petty party points in the other place yesterday. It is not that the Home Secretary does not agree with the law; the Home Secretary is abiding by the law.

Baroness Hussein-Ece Portrait Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)
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My Lords, within the last few days I met a man who has lived in the UK for 41 years, since the age of four. He was due to be deported to Jamaica, but then his deportation was cancelled, which is obviously good news. Does the Minister think this is a just way for this country to conduct its deportation policies? How many more people are in the pipeline to be deported day after day, and which we are only hearing about in the newspapers? Somehow the Government are in denial that they have any responsibility to take care of these people.

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
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My Lords, the noble Baroness will understand that I will not comment on an individual case. She is absolutely right that deportations go on all the time. Although this flight has come to the fore in the media this week, it is nothing unusual. I cannot comment on whether this deportation has been cancelled or not.

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Portrait Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)
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Does the Minister agree that one of the weaknesses in the Government’s position over the Windrush scandal was that it demonstrated evidence of a “Gotcha!” culture in the immigration service and in the Home Office? Achieving a deportation was chalked up as a victory by the staff concerned. Can she reassure us that that culture has now gone and that some of the worst aspects of the Windrush problem will not recur?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
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The noble Lord is right to make this point. When the Home Secretary first took up his post, he made it a central priority that that culture of a hostile environment—which had grown up over the years, if we are to be honest—would be far more attuned towards talking about a compliant environment and that the culture in the Home Office would be changed to be far more humane. That was demonstrated in the aftermath of what happened to the Windrush people. I hope this continues towards those who genuinely have a right to be in this country.

Baroness Berridge Portrait Baroness Berridge (Con)
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My Lords, while it is welcome that the new Home Secretary has made this a central plank, there is continuing concern as these cases continue to bubble up. Can the Minister assure us that the Home Secretary is having a series of meetings not just with the high commissioners of these various Caribbean islands, but also with community representatives? May I remind my noble friend that a considerable proportion of these people, particularly of this generation, are involved in faith communities? Maybe reaching out to these leaders would help resolve some of these cases more swiftly.

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
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My noble friend makes a good point. The Home Secretary has been in touch with the high commissioners. Of course, local—particularly Caribbean—communities are best placed to know where people who need help can seek it and where cases can be dealt with. We have reached out to all these Caribbean communities and beyond in order to encourage people to come forward to get the help which they might need to resolve their status.

Baroness Benjamin Portrait Baroness Benjamin (LD)
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My Lords, there is a real need to have cultural understanding of individuals who are being investigated. There needs to be public confidence that people are being treated fairly. How many BAME people are Home Office officials working on these cases to give the public the confidence they need?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
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I am afraid that I cannot answer the noble Baroness’s exact question, but I will find out what proportion of BAME staff work in the Home Office and let her know that.

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Portrait Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)
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My Lords, just for clarification, will the Minister explain that, when a foreign national is convicted of a criminal offence and receives a sentence of, I think, more than two years, they then qualify for deportation? It is probably a matter for the judge to make a recommendation and then the Home Office takes over to see whether there are any mitigating circumstances. Is that correct?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
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It is actually a sentence of more than 12 months, but certainly Article 8 considerations are taken into consideration before someone is deported. The provision exists under the UK Borders Act to deport people who have been sentenced to 12 months’ or more imprisonment.

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Portrait Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)
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My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Baroness will return to her previous answer on the subject of the hostile environment, which I think she described as having grown up over many years. My recollection—on which I am sure she will correct me if I am wrong—is that in fact the policy may have had a number of aspects, but it was named and prosecuted under the previous Government, and the Home Secretary at the time was the current Prime Minister.

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
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We could have a debate about this, but I understand that the phrase was actually coined by Alan Johnson, but I shall not start on party-political exchanges because, the phrase having been coined, the culture of hostility grew up over a number of years. We could argue the semantics of it, but it grew up over a number of years. Compliance on immigration matters is far more important than a hostile culture within the Home Office or anywhere else.

Lord Teverson Portrait Lord Teverson (LD)
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My Lords, it is certainly my experience from business that it takes several years to change a culture in a company. Can the Minister explain to the House what is practically been done—I do not want to use the phrase re-education—in terms of training? Are programmes under way, or is this just Ministers telling people not to enforce the policy any longer?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
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The noble Lord will know from his experience that the person who sets the culture in an organisation is the leadership, and I think the Home Secretary made it abundantly clear when he came into post that the hostile environment was no longer to be, but the noble Lord is right: it takes time for these things to change.

Third Reading
15:47
A privilege amendment was made.
Motion
Moved by
Lord Bates Portrait Lord Bates
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That the Bill do now pass.

Lord Sharkey Portrait Lord Sharkey (LD)
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My Lords, very briefly, I should like to ask the Minister a question to do with the in-flight EU prospectus regulation, which has passed all its legislative stages but has not yet been gazetted, as I understand it, and so cannot be treated as settled legislation and is therefore treated in the Bill under the amendment provisions in Clause 1(2)(b). If the legislation is gazetted while the Bill is in the Commons, do the Government intend to move it into the category of settled legislation, governed by Clause 1(2)(a)? What happens if the legislation is gazetted after the Bill has left the Commons but before 29 March? How will the Government make sure that the power to make adjustments is not applied to the now settled piece of legislation?

Lord Bates Portrait The Minister of State, Department for International Development (Lord Bates) (Con)
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My Lords, that is a good question. We had hoped that it would be gazetted before then, in which case we could then have made the amendment that we talked about. I was grateful for the noble Lord’s suggestion on that. I cannot say that we have had an explicit conversation about this aspect, but it is going to arrive. Providing that it passes your Lordships’ House, it will be heard in the Commons I think on Monday next week. The same principle would apply—that if it is gazetted we will put it in there. That was certainly the spirit of what we agreed. I will make absolutely sure that the Economic Secretary and the Financial Secretary, who are dealing with this in the other place, are apprised of the commitment that I gave and which we will seek to honour.

Lord Davies of Oldham Portrait Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
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My Lords, I am grateful for that answer, which shows that the Government are on top of the issue—against a background where we must all recognise that time is somewhat short with regard to this legislation. The SI relates to a service industry that is a crucial part of our economy. We could not afford any situation in which a gap occurred; I am sure that the Minister is seized of that fact.

We are all aware of the fact that there are not many days left to the point where we are due to leave the European Community, yet there is still a very large number of SIs to be considered. Slips such as this, which are minor, can be remedied reasonably quickly by appropriate action, as the Minister indicated. But slips such as this could be costly if we are right up against the wire with regard to the legislation we are seeking to pass. We must all be conscious of the fact that the Government’s programme between now and the end of March is pretty demanding, to put it mildly. So, although I accept entirely what the Minister said and am reassured by the promptness of the Government’s response, this is an indication that there is many a slip between cup and lip, and the Government do not have much time for a monumental programme.

Lord Adonis Portrait Lord Adonis (Lab)
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My Lords, when the Minister spoke on 4 December at Second Reading, he said that the Bill was part of a package of measures and statutory instruments to ensure that the financial services industry would be covered in the event of no deal. He said specifically:

“That stability and continuity is being delivered by the 60 or so statutory instruments that Her Majesty’s Treasury is introducing under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018”.—[Official Report, 4/12/18; col. 934.]


Will the Minister tell us how many of those 60 or so statutory instruments have been laid before Parliament, and would he be in a position to write to me to tell me what the timetable is for laying those that have not yet been laid before Parliament before 29 March?

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Portrait Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
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My Lords, before the Minister answers those questions, may I ask one of my own in relation to the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee? Will the Minister tell the House whether and how the recommendations in paragraphs 8, 16 and 19 of that report have been dealt with?

Baroness Kingsmill Portrait Baroness Kingsmill (Lab)
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My Lords, before the Minister responds, will he give me some assurances about how these regulations and this legislation, when it becomes legislation, are going to have any particular impact on online financial institutions? I think that they are the ones where the future is going to lie. I declare an interest as a former chairman of Monzo, an online bank. It is important that the Minister gives some reassurance about the particular impact that this could have on a completely different form of financial institution.

Lord Bates Portrait Lord Bates
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I thank the noble Lord, Lord Davies, for his comments. As he has set out, the schedule that we are up against here is pretty demanding. All of us on the Front Benches are in solidarity in recognising the demands of the work going on. It is also demanding on some of the committees of your Lordships’ House, which are having to do an incredible amount of work. I am thinking of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and its sub-committees, under my noble friend Lord Trefgarne and the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham of Felling, which is doing a tremendous amount of work.

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, asked about the progress being made. We have agreed that we will provide regular updates. We have approximately 60 pieces of secondary legislation that need to come through. Around 45 are subject to the affirmative procedure and, of those, 22 or 23 have made their journey through the House, with some benefiting from the scrutiny of the noble Lord himself. That is basically where we are: about half way. We have some 31 sitting days before Brexit, so it is a pressurised and demanding situation.

I turn to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, about the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. I thank that committee in particular because it has done an excellent piece of work. In fact, we almost took the committee’s script to express concerns about the extent of the Henry VIII powers, some of the wording and some of the files that were in flight and which we have just been talking about. I am pretty sure we have addressed all those concerns. If that is not the case, I will write, but from recollection we wanted to address all the points.

The noble Baroness raised the online community. Of course a number of pieces of legislation relate to online financial regulation. I cannot be specific about which ones are relevant but it is a crucial point. We have had many long discussions in Grand Committee in the Moses Room about statutory instruments that have a strong online financial services element to them and make a significant contribution to the success of UK financial services. We want that to continue once we leave the European Union.

Lord Tunnicliffe Portrait Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
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My Lords, perhaps I may say a word or two to put this discussion into perspective. This side hates the idea of a no-deal exit and so on, but the Bill is an outstanding example of co-operation by the Government. The Bill has changed massively from the one introduced at Second Reading. The Government facilitated discussions with the Minister and officials. It is now a much better Bill and, given its task, which we abhor, it is nevertheless a good Bill.

Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted Portrait Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)
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My Lords, I remind the House of my interests as set out in the register. I also express my thanks to the Minister and his officials, along with other noble Lords who tabled amendments. We have a more than satisfactory outcome. We now have much greater transparency, some new procedures under which the Government will report on what is going to happen and tables to show us where things have gone. I hope this will perhaps lay the ground for how some other things, in what may be more fortunate circumstances than Brexit, could continue in the future. On behalf of these Benches, I thank the noble Lord and the officials.

16:00
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Portrait Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
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I will ask a supplementary question to follow up the excellent contribution of my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe about perspective and co-operation. The Bill, with the excellent co-operation of the opposition parties, has taken a number of weeks to get through this House, as the Minister knows. We are now dealing with the Trade Bill, the Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill, the Agriculture Bill, the Fisheries Bill, the immigration Bill and the withdrawal Bill. Could the Minister, for whom I have great respect because he has a lot of experience here and in the other place—perhaps he has more wisdom than the previous people of whom I have asked this question—give me some indication of how these Bills, of which there are at least six, can be dealt with between now and 29 March?

Lord Bates Portrait Lord Bates
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The noble Lord knows, having stood where I stand, that the Motion before the House is that this Bill do now pass. To be frank, most of us on the Front Bench are taking it one Bill and one SI at a time, so I will sidestep that question. I am sure my noble friend Lord Young, who has provided excellent assistance throughout on this, and is a member of the Government Whips’ Office, will have heard the remarks. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles—

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Portrait Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
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That is really helpful. Is the Minister now saying that the noble Lord, Lord Young, for whom I have equally great respect, will answer that question?

Lord Bates Portrait Lord Bates
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If my noble friend Lord Young were so inclined, he would probably want to give me a kick from the side and suggest that I keep moving on.

I turn to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, because it was a good one: there is a great deal of expertise in this House, which could be brought to bear. We even had some free legal advice from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, to help us on our way. When we work constructively and recognise that the Government have a right to make progress with legislation, we can do some good work. Certainly, we can ensure that this legislation leaves your Lordships’ House much more fit for purpose and in better shape as it moves to the other place. That will, we hope, assist in expediting it through its procedures. I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.

16:02
Bill passed and sent to the Commons.

Intellectual Property (Exhaustion of Rights) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Motion to Approve
16:02
Moved by
Lord Henley Portrait Lord Henley
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That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 27 November 2018 be approved. Debated in Grand Committee on 14 January.

Lord Henley Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Henley) (Con)
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My Lords, the Grand Committee debate we had on this instrument on 14 January was extensive and wide-ranging; I am grateful to all noble Lords who took part so rigorously. Following that debate, I wrote a letter to noble Lords who participated, providing details on specific matters raised, which I placed in the Library.

The EU-derived law which provides for the current EEA regional exhaustion regime needs amending to ensure that it continues to function appropriately after exit as retained EU law. This instrument, therefore, provides a temporary solution if we leave the EU without a deal. If Parliament does not agree to this SI, it would expose businesses to considerable uncertainty and the risk of litigation. During the Grand Committee debate, noble Lords asked whether UK businesses and rights holders were put at a disadvantage. This arrangement should not disadvantage UK businesses compared to EU businesses. UK and EU businesses exporting secondary market goods from the UK to the EU may be more restricted, but that restriction would apply equally to all businesses, whether they are based in Brussels or Birmingham, and it depends on where rights are held and which direction the goods are travelling, not on nationality.

At this point, I would like to mention correspondence I received from the Publishers Association. Publishing is a key contributor to the UK economy and the sector considers that this instrument is,

“of immense importance to the UK’s publishing industry, and it is vital that it proceeds into law”,

and,

“helps avoid a potential regulatory cliff-edge for books, offering interim certainty to the industry, while the longer-term exhaustion framework is consulted upon”.

For the benefit of the House, I wanted to expand on some key matters raised in Grand Committee.

Lord Henley Portrait Lord Henley
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I am not going to give way. I think it would be more convenient if I made my speech, allowing the House to listen to it, and then took questions. I will continue.

In Grand Committee, noble Lords asked about the approach taken to consultation on the drafting of this no-deal instrument. The legislative approach for exhaustion of IP rights in a no-deal scenario was being developed at a time of considerable sensitivity over the ongoing withdrawal agreement negotiations and the shape of the future relationship. This meant that the usual formal consultation on the legislative instrument was not appropriate. The level of consultation was consistent with the approach being taken with respect to no-deal legislation across government. My officials have engaged with businesses across many sectors since the referendum. They have spoken to rights holders, distribution companies, academics and trade associations. This engagement helped establish support for the legislative approach taken on this instrument. It is ongoing engagement that will continue as the work progresses, not just on exhaustion but more widely too.

While this instrument is intended to provide a temporary fix if the UK exits the EU without a deal, the Government are already considering options for what exhaustion regime is best for the UK in the future. Such an important decision on the UK’s future exhaustion regime is not to be rushed. It is not sensible to put a sunset clause on this instrument. We intend to take the necessary time to build a robust evidence base and to consult with businesses and consumers before any major decision is made on the UK’s future exhaustion regime.

I appreciate that noble Lords have asked about the process for assessing the impact of the adjustments made by this instrument to retained EU law, as they have asked about other such instruments. I believe I have addressed this matter in my letter to noble Lords, and I hope that the explanation was helpful.

Finally, on a specific point, noble Lords in Grand Committee raised a question as to whether the law relating to exhaustion of rights would be interpreted in accordance with pre-exit EU case law, most notably the Silhouette case. The answer is yes, it will, in accordance with the provisions of the withdrawal Act. In addition, Regulation 2 of this instrument makes it clear that the effect of domestic retained EU law under Section 4 of the withdrawal Act relating to exhaustion of rights does not change after exit, despite the UK not being an EU member state. Whatever effect it had in the UK before exit will be the same after exit.

To summarise, this instrument is important to support the movement of parallel goods, including essential commodities such as medicines. It is a necessary technical fix for UK laws to prepare for our exit from the EU and to provide legal certainty in a no-deal situation. I understand that stakeholders remain very interested in the Government’s future plans on this matter, and I know that my officials at the Intellectual Property Office are keen to have continued constructive engagement with them. The Government value their input in helping them better understand the views of businesses and consumers. I beg to move.

Baroness Kingsmill Portrait Baroness Kingsmill
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My Lords, I merely want to tell the Minister that I too have been advised by the publishing industry. It is with some reluctance that it has agreed that this is necessary legislation, because of the uncertainty that it would otherwise suffer.

The British publishing industry exports more books than any other country. This piece of legislation is vital for it. While it recognises the importance of this SI going through as a temporary fix, it is nevertheless typical of the kind of rushed legislation that has been necessary because of Brexit. This is another example of a gold-standard industry being put at risk because of the pressure to rush that we are all under.

I emphasise that the correspondence that I have had with the publishing industry has suggested that it is extremely unclear about what will happen and that the uncertainty around the long-term provisions for these particular and very important rights causes it considerable concern. For the record, can the Minister clarify this point?

Lord Clement-Jones Portrait Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
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My Lords, whatever the merits of these SIs, I am pleased that we are now debating them on the Floor of the House. I referred in Committee to what my noble friend Lord Tyler said about the critical importance of effective and timely scrutiny of Brexit-related secondary legislation. We have to do this properly. I noticed that the tag in front of this business is “Business expected to be brief”, but we do still have a few loose ends, even after the Minister’s opening statement.

The problem throughout has been inadequate public consultation and the lack of any sunsetting on these statutory instruments. In his letter of 21 January, the Minister defends the lack of proper public consultation as not being meaningful when,

“no wider policy changes were being taken forward”,

and because it,

“would have risked removing the EU’s incentive to agree to an ambitious future relationship on intellectual property”.

I fail to see the substance of the first point, as these SIs are more than technical, and the logic of the second, as, in my experience, contingency plans do not prejudice negotiations.

As we have discussed, we are unilaterally allowing EU 27 goods already placed on the market there to be exported to the UK, which is good news for parallel importers but not as good for parallel exporters from the UK. It is clear from the Government’s small print that these exporters may well need to seek permission to gain entry into the EU. That remains the case.

The Minister did not respond about what the Government are doing to mitigate their situation, by advice or otherwise. I was pleased that he confirmed that the ruling in the Silhouette case and those that followed will apply post Brexit to this modified exhaustion regime. In his letter and in Regulation 2(2), the Minister prays this in aid. It could still have been dealt with expressly in the language of the statutory instrument.

In his responses, the Minister also failed to totally clarify the work being conducted by the IPO into a future exhaustion regime. I very much agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Kingsmill, about how we know about the Government’s current thinking emerging from the review and research, and about organisations such as the Publishers Association asking for the Government’s assurance that they will avoid an international copyright exhaustion regime being implemented in the longer term. Indeed, they are asking for an effective national exhaustion regime so that the UK’s outstanding creative industries, including the publishing industry, will be properly supported. Is that the intention of a future exhaustion regime?

I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, will speak on this SI, but there are a number of aspects that have not yet been covered on the subject of intellectual property rights—the geographical indications, for instance. I see that there is now a draft statutory instrument on what will happen to design rights in the event of a no-deal Brexit. I look forward to that debate. Then there is the very important aspect of rights of representation by IP advisers, trademark attorneys and the like. I do not recall the Minister talking about that either when he addressed us in Committee.

Finally, I express bafflement at the fate of the draft Intellectual Property (Copyright and Related Rights) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations, which the sifting committee and our own Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee considered should be dealt with by the affirmative procedure. I do not think the Minister answered that question. When will the draft SI come before us? There are some loose ends and I hope that in the course of the debate the Minister will be able to tidy them up.

16:15
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Portrait Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
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My Lords, I am happy to follow the noble Lord. He has made some detailed comments and posed some questions which I hope the Minister will be able to respond to. Having said that, I accept that the Minister’s letter of 21 January—running to eight pages and covering a lot of detail—as well as subsequent meetings have done a lot to clarify some of the issues that were before us when this was first considered in Committee. But good scrutiny leads to further debate and discussion, so it is not inappropriate that we should come back and point out areas that are not as good as perhaps they should be as we pass this important, time-limited piece of legislation. I also agree that the clarification about the Silhouette case, which was a confusing passage of discussion in Committee, has made things much clearer and will be helpful to those involved in that issue.

The Government should take away from this process three main things. First, if there is an SI of the sort of significance represented by the three intellectual property regulations before us today, the fact that consultation need not be carried out is not sufficient to assuage the concerns of those who have had to respond, even as late as yesterday, to these issues. There is a lesson to be learned here about the need for more engagement and a more considered approach to the context of these amendments. I accept the pressure of time and the difficulty of fitting everything in, but the consequence of not consulting according to the style and process that people have become accustomed to, just because this is a special case, has meant that we have not had the best advice that would have been available to us in ordinary circumstances.

Related to that, the question of whether one needs an impact assessment is also important. There is of course a de minimis figure, which was in the Cabinet Office rules. But when one thinks about the impact that these new regulations will have, even for a time-limited period, the Government should be prepared at the very least to bring forward for consideration evidence that the de minimis figure has been met. At the moment, all we get is an assertion; we are left to guess whether the figures that might be construed will work. That is not satisfactory in terms of general process.

Thirdly—this does not apply to the SI before us at the moment but applies to the other two—considerable variations in approach have been taken by the different departments on the EU exit SIs. There should be some overall consideration of this when the time comes to review how, in some areas, the limited licence available to ensure that the statute book is in good order as we leave the EU, if we do, on a no-deal basis, has been interpreted differently in different departments. We heard even today that the Treasury has a completely different approach from that of others on the issues of consultation and preparation of estimates that I have been talking about. The public interest would be better served by a slightly different approach.

Lord Adonis Portrait Lord Adonis (Lab)
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My Lords, first, I thank the Minister for his extensive letter to noble Lords responding to the debate in Grand Committee. I have a specific question and will then make some comments on the wider issue of consultation which has bedevilled all our proceedings on these no-deal statutory instruments, because the consultation has been so haphazard and unsatisfactory. My question is in response to the Minister’s opening remarks, when he said that it was “not sensible” to put a sunset clause on the current exhaustion regime. That is a judgment which the Government have made but, since this is clearly a matter of extreme importance to the industry, can he tell us what the view was of stakeholders who were consulted on the issue of the sunset clause? I understand that that issue has bedevilled these proceedings throughout.

On consultation, the Minister’s letter was significant; it accepted that the consultation which had taken place had been in confidence. Having secret consultations which are not open to all relevant people, or all those who wish to take part, particularly from the industries consulted, is contrary to almost all of the principles of public consultation. The Minister’s letter has an extremely convoluted paragraph about how this secret consultation was conducted. It says that the Intellectual Property Office, or IPO,

“identified the relevant representative organisations or businesses it would usually engage with, and who would give a range of views. Because of the confidential nature of the review”—

which was entirely self-imposed by the Government; this did not need to be confidential but could have been an open, public review—

“the IPO then identified and invited 12 individual experts who had previously liaised with the IPO in a role within one (or more) of those relevant organisations”.

The letter then lists the organisations. It continues:

“I believe this is consistent with what I said in my … clarifying remarks about this process during my closing speech; the IPO’s understanding was that these individuals were ‘from’ those organisations but they were, as I clearly said, ‘a group of individual stakeholders’ and the IPO ‘consulted them in their personal capacity’. I therefore also agree with Lord Warner that the organisations themselves were not consulted in the way that would usually happen”.


Reading that twice, one realises the truly extraordinary nature of the consultation which has taken place. The Government have arbitrarily and secretly selected 12 individuals because—to cut to the chase—officials happened to know them and had dealt with them previously. They then chose to consult them, telling Parliament that the consultation process was adequate. However, when pressed, it is clear that these people do not in any respect represent the organisations from which they have come. We are not told who the individuals are and they are not in any way accountable for their advice. We are told that the advice was given individually, but we are not told what it was. When it comes to disputes on major aspects of policy embedded in these regulations, the Government blandly assure us that the decisions they have taken are sensible. In my experience, Governments always think that their decisions are sensible; I have not yet met a Treasury Minister who said that their decisions were not sensible. However, the Government will not even tell us whether the “sensible” decisions they have made reflect the secret consultation that took place before the preparation of the statutory instruments.

Because of the unsatisfactory nature of this whole procedure, we will have to approve this regulation. However, in any normal circumstances, we would not approve a regulation on the basis of a secret consultation with 12 individuals—selected secretly by the Government, whose names we do not know and who are not in any way accountable—when there should be a public consultation. I raise this point not only to highlight the unsatisfactory nature of this, which goes to the heart of all this no-deal planning, but because of the cascade of regulations still to come. Every time your Lordships meet, a plethora of regulations appears before us. In the health Bill, which we debated yesterday —I did not participate, but I read the Bill during the proceedings—there was provision for a whole slew of further regulations, with procedures as yet undecided.

I invite the Minister to respond on this, as I think it is important to get this on the record. Can he give some undertakings that consultation on future regulations laid before your Lordships will be done in an open, transparent way, so that we are not faced again with consultations with secretly selected individuals? As noble Lords will recall, when we were debating one of the instruments, we were told that the individuals were “selected and trusted” respondents—presumably on the grounds that a general public consultation with people who were willing to share their views would not engender trust.

This is not good government. In any circumstances other than this national emergency, I am confident that your Lordships would not agree to process, let alone consent to, regulations on this basis. We need some assurance that, in the time remaining, consultations will be conducted in a proper manner, rather than in the secret, cloak and dagger, totally unaccountable fashion that we have seen in respect to this instrument.

Lord Warner Portrait Lord Warner (CB)
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I want to follow up that point. I remind the Minister that after our rigorous series of exchanges in Grand Committee on these regulations, I took the liberty of submitting a Written Question, which was answered extremely helpfully on behalf of the Cabinet Office by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham. I wanted to check that my memory was correct about the Cabinet Office rules on consultation. Not only do they require 12 weeks—during which people can comment in what is often a helpful way for the Government of the day—but the twin leg to this is that the Government have to publish those responses to their consultation. Not only have the Government, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said, cut out the middleman in their approach to consultation, but by doing it that way they have avoided the commitment to publish the responses to that consultation. So there is a twin problem with the Government’s approach to many of these SIs. I suspect it is going to continue in relation to the Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill, which contains Henry VIII powers for the Government to produce a lot of SIs. If the Government go on behaving on these SIs in the way that they have behaved on those we are discussing today, they will drive a coach and horses through their own Cabinet Office rules on the way we go in for consultation on legislation.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Portrait Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
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My Lords, I have waited in vain for some Conservative Members to contribute to this debate. When I moved here from the other place, a number of people, including the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, who I am glad to see here, told me that the great thing about the House of Lords is its careful scrutiny, the work that it does scrutinising detailed legislation using all its expertise, knowledge and background. That is why I am surprised. We are dealing with a statutory instrument on intellectual property, which a lot of Conservative Members, in particular, must have expertise in. I see the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, who has probably been involved with this in his work in the legal profession. There are others who no doubt could contribute. We have 12 statutory instruments here. I have been at a number of meetings of the Grand Committee, and with the notable, standout exception of the noble Lord, Lord Deben, there have not been any Conservative Members contributing. What has happened to this great scrutiny of the House of Lords? We have had wonderful and important contributions from some of my noble friends, including my noble friends Lady Kingsmill, with her experience in the law, and Lord Winston, when we were discussing the transfer of embryos and other matters. We have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Warner, from the Cross Benches, but no Conservatives. Yet today we have 12 statutory instruments—

None Portrait A noble Lord
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We have 11.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Portrait Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
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We have 11. The noble Lord has made my argument much better, actually. On the Order Paper there are 180 statutory instruments waiting to be discussed by the Grand Committee and by this House, on planning procedures, plant protection, ozone depletion, plant health, equine records—I could go on. I will not, your Lordships will be glad to hear. But I could go on and on, because there are 180 of them—and some are on really important matters.

16:30
If the Lord Speaker is still running the visits to schools that we have been involved in, how can I honestly go to schools and say, “I am a Member of this great House of Lords, and we scrutinise. We are there to scrutinise legislation line by line”? This is a dereliction of duty. We are going to pass these statutory instruments, which could have unforeseen consequences —yet we are rushing them through. It is an appalling situation.
I know I am going a bit beyond intellectual property and making a general point—but we will see this again and again. It will go on all day today, all next week and the week after that. We shall certainly not have got through even the 180 on today’s Order Paper by the end of March. Can we really go before pupils—or, indeed, anyone—and say, “The House of Lords has done a really good job of scrutinising all these statutory instruments”? This is not to mention the six Bills that we still have to deal with—the Trade Bill, which is currently under way; the one on healthcare, which we discussed yesterday; the ones on agriculture and fisheries—and a whole range of other things that we still have to do.
This is an astonishing situation. It is only the Liberal Democrats, the Cross Benches and the Labour Party who are doing as much as possible within the time available to scrutinise these documents. The Conservatives—where are they? Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, can tell me where the great people in the House of Lords who would scrutinise this legislation are, and what an important job we have done. I am very disappointed.
Lord Strathclyde Portrait Lord Strathclyde (Con)
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My Lords, I crave the indulgence of the House for a moment. I was not here at the start of the debate but since the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has mentioned me twice, it is only fair that I should defend myself. His proposition is stuff and nonsense. Of course the House of Lords offers great scrutiny of all kinds of legislation, including secondary legislation of this kind. But the noble Lord ought to assume that the fact that noble Lords do not speak is because they are entirely satisfied with the opening speech of my noble friend Lord Henley, the Minister, who has used his skill, judgment and expertise, built up over many years, and gives great comfort to the House when he stands at the Dispatch Box.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Portrait Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
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I am most grateful to the noble Lord. The lesson in fly fishing that he taught me has worked.

Lord Maxton Portrait Lord Maxton (Lab)
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My Lords, I rise briefly just to make a point to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. On intellectual property, the Minister did not say one single word about the changing technologies that greatly affect the way in which intellectual property is seen. I have not read, or even picked up, a book for the last two years—because I read on a Kindle. What about that sort of change?

Lord Henley Portrait Lord Henley
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My Lords, some of us still read books, and some of us still read letters. I shall not follow up the Scottish exchanges that have just taken place; I shall start with the letter referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson—the letter that I sent, I think, on 21 January. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, described it as “extensive”; the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said that it was eight pages long. What I have in front of me is six and a half pages long, so I just want to be clear that we are all talking about the same letter. I see that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and I are going to count.

Lord Adonis Portrait Lord Adonis
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I read it on my iPhone, so I have no idea how long it was.

Lord Henley Portrait Lord Henley
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I think that deals with the point about modern technology—but I deal in letters, and mine is six and half pages of A4. I hope we are all talking about the same letter, which I sent on 21 January. I think, and hope, that it dealt with a great many of the points that have been raised.

I shall go through some of the points that came up in the debate. The principal one referred to by the noble Lords, Lord Adonis, Lord Stevenson and Lord Foulkes, is that there has been a failure of consultation—it just has not been good enough. I believe it has been consistent with the approach taken on no-deal legislation across government. The Government’s consultation principles are clear. Consultations should have a purpose. The statutory instruments in question make only those corrections to retained EU law that are necessary to give the UK a functioning statute book in what we have all made clear is the unlikely event of a no-deal exit, and maintain as far as possible the existing domestic position. A consultation on policy change would not have been meaningful as that is not what these instruments do. Again, I set that out in my letter.

I make it clear that there will be full and proper consultation on further changes. All those who have had dealings with the Intellectual Property Office will accept that it has a good record in this respect. It consults properly and will take into account the concerns of all those who have an interest. I give an assurance that the IPO will do that: it will consult and make sure—

Lord Warner Portrait Lord Warner
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Before the Minister sits down, could he address the second leg of the Cabinet Office guidance? Even if we accept that there is a truncated and specialised consultation process, what about publishing the findings of the process, which is a key part of the Cabinet Office rules? Do he and his colleagues accept that if we are to have special arrangements, they should also publish findings of that consultation process?

Lord Henley Portrait Lord Henley
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If there are findings that it is necessary to publish I give an assurance those will be published. If the noble Lord will bear with me, I want to talk about the future and make it clear that the IPO will consult and publish the findings properly so that the noble Lord and others with an interest will know what is going on.

I turn to some of the other points I want to address—I was not about to sit down, because there are other points to be dealt with. The noble Baroness, Lady Kingsmill, asked about long-term certainty for publishers and referred to the letter from the Publishers Association. I repeat what I said in my remarks: the Publishers Association made it very clear that it saw it as vital that these regulations should be on the statute book in the event of no deal.

Baroness Kingsmill Portrait Baroness Kingsmill
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The Publishers Association also made it clear that this was not entirely satisfactory, but that it was an essential interim position that needs to be taken. As it said in the letter, this is not ideal, but something forced on publishers. My point really was that this wonderful industry, which is gold standard, as we all know, has been forced to accept unsatisfactory legislation because it is a last-minute attempt to put a finger in the dyke of the possibility of a no-deal Brexit. The publishers again made it clear in the letter that they need some clarity about the future. That is the point I want the Minister to cover in his answer.

Lord Henley Portrait Lord Henley
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I do not accept the noble Baroness’s metaphors, but I repeat what was said, and the noble Baroness is quite right to repeat the other parts of the message from the Publishers Association.

I come to the point I was about to deal with: the long-term certainty that the Publishers Association and the noble Baroness are looking for. The regional exhaustion regime currently in place supports frictionless trade in goods within the EEA and is considered to provide the optimal balance between the interests of rights holders and consumers. Consumers in the UK will continue to have access to a wide range of products at more competitive prices. Maintaining the current arrangements avoids the uncertainty of cost for UK businesses and consumers associated with a change of exhaustion regime, while the UK considers the impact of a future change to the regime. The SIs, we have made clear, essentially preserve that status quo, but that allows us time to consider evidence and consult on any future change.

I shall move on to the sunset clause, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. Again, I believe I dealt with this in my opening remarks, but the instrument is intended to be a temporary measure. The Government are considering options for the future. As I made clear, that will continue with extensive stakeholder engagement and consultation, and we must make sure that we have robust evidence. Until we have dealt with that, we will need this in place in the event of no deal. Therefore it is not necessary to have the sunset clause referred to by the noble Lord and the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. Planned research removes the purpose of the sunset clause and the consultation will, in the end, provide the appropriate solution for the future.

I turn to the noble Lord’s further question, on mitigation for exporters. I make it clear that the arrangement will not disadvantage UK businesses, as opposed to EU businesses, as the effect depends on where businesses hold rights, and not on which country they are based in. A continuation of the status quo will minimise any negative economic impact. For example, it will allow existing import arrangements into the UK to continue, including for businesses that rely on secondary market goods. Businesses wishing to continue to parallel export goods from the UK to the EU will need to check with owners of rights in the EU—which may be UK businesses themselves—whether they need permission to do so. For example, UK businesses owning trademarks in the UK and EEA may choose to limit how their goods are parallel exported from the UK to the EEA, if they wish to exploit market conditions such as consumer preferences and labelling regulations.

Lord Clement-Jones Portrait Lord Clement-Jones
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My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the Minister. That is precisely the detriment that I was talking about—that they will need to seek permission if they are going to export in those circumstances. Therefore, the question is: what assistance and advice will they be getting directly from the Government?

Lord Henley Portrait Lord Henley
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

They will have advice, as is appropriate, from the Government, and the IPO will offer that. However, we cannot force the EU to take a more favourable position to mitigate this effect. Again, this will, we hope, be dealt with in any deal; we are dealing with a no-deal situation in these regulations.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, wanted the Silhouette case expressed more clearly. The withdrawal Act makes clear that EU case law before exit will continue to apply to the interpretation of EU-derived domestic law after exit. Furthermore, Regulation 2 makes clear that the effect of domestic retained EU law under Section 4, relating to exhaustion of rights, does not change after exit, despite the UK not being a member state. Whatever effect it had in the UK before exit will be the same after exit, as I hope I made clear in my opening remarks. I believe that deals with the questions that have been put to me.

Motion agreed.

Patents (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
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Motion to Approve
16:44
Moved by
Lord Henley Portrait Lord Henley
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That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 28 November 2018 be approved. Debated in Grand Committee on 14 January.

Lord Henley Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Henley) (Con)
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My Lords, as with the previous instrument, this was the subject of a wide-ranging debate in Grand Committee on 14 January. Again, I wrote to noble Lords who spoke in that debate to respond to the points raised, and also placed a copy of my six and a half-page letter in the Library. Since the Grand Committee debate, I have held further helpful and constructive meetings with the BioIndustry Association and the ABPI. Let me make it clear that I value those regular contacts and the insight that they bring on behalf of this important industry. I will continue to have discussions with representatives from industry and hear their perspectives as we move forward. As Life Sciences Minister within the department, my door is always open.

In my discussions with the life sciences sector, it has made clear the value and importance of supplementary protection certificates—SPCs—to the industry, and its concerns about the potential for those valuable IP rights to be affected by a no-deal exit. I hear and understand that. The only intention of this instrument is to fix what would break and to do so in a way that preserves the current operation of the law. We are considered to have one of the strongest IP systems in the world and the Government remain fully committed to maintaining that position. That is why we are preserving the status quo so far as possible in a no-deal exit. It is right that we continue to prepare for a no-deal scenario as long as that remains a possible outcome.

One issue raised in Grand Committee, and addressed in my letter, dealt with the approach taken to consultation on this instrument. In my meetings with industry bodies, we had discussions on this point and on why the usual wide engagement by the IPO was not possible on this occasion. The withdrawal Act established the policy direction which this instrument follows: to preserve the existing law at the point of exit and maintain the status quo as far as possible, ensuring a smooth transition for business. As the Government’s consultation principles make clear, a consultation on a policy which is not changing would not be of benefit. Nevertheless, the IPO wanted to ensure that the drafting of the instrument achieved its aims, by getting external views. Therefore, it was decided, consistent with the constraints in place, to carry out a confidential technical review of the drafting. In addition to providing valuable feedback on the drafting, the participants also raised wider concerns, including on the issue of the SPC term.

The recent engagement with industry bodies also touched on this issue, which was raised in Grand Committee by the noble Lord, Lord Warner. As I reassured them in those discussions, the sole objective of this instrument is to fix parts of the retained law that would otherwise break upon exit. Therefore, the changes being made simply ensure that an SPC which is granted the day after exit would be given exactly the same term of protection as it would if granted the day before exit. Without such intervention, term would have to be calculated without any reference to authorisations granted in the UK. Innovators have expressed the view that this intervention should be to rely solely on a granted UK authorisation to calculate term. This would give a longer period of protection if the product comes to the UK later than the EEA. As I set out in my letter, this has the potential to tip the balance between the interests in this area at a time when maintaining the status quo is critical.

I fully understand that innovators have concerns about wider potential effects of a no-deal exit on the regulatory environment; that has come through strongly in my recent discussions. These are legitimate concerns which must be carefully explored, and it is entirely correct that they are raised. Pharmaceutical innovation is a vital part of the UK economy; the companies which research and develop new drugs are some of our most important and valuable, and we benefit greatly from their work. If we end up in a no-deal situation, I am keen to start immediately exploring these issues with innovators and all other interests, and to make progress as early as possible after a no-deal exit.

In conclusion, by preserving the status quo as far as possible in a no-deal exit, I hope that the Government’s aim is clear—to maintain the UK’s highly regarded IP framework and the important protection that it provides. I beg to move.

Lord Warner Portrait Lord Warner (CB)
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My Lords, I raised several concerns about this SI in Grand Committee, as the Minister recognised. As he knows, these were the result of briefings from the BIA and the ABPI, with which I am glad to say he has had further meetings. However, since his meetings both these organisations have provided me with further briefing about their continuing concerns.

Before turning to these concerns, I will briefly place them in the wider context of the damage done by Brexit—and the Government’s conduct of it—to our highly successful life sciences industry. This damage could make Nissan and Sunderland look like small beer if we are not careful. From the Prime Minister down, the Government have shown a poor appreciation of the damage being done to this sector: the loss of the EU medicines regulator from the UK; the loss of investment opportunities in the UK; the missed opportunities for collaborative international joint research, development projects and clinical trials; the drain from the UK of talented overseas scientists; and the likely loss of a growing amount of our own homegrown scientific talent.

To this litany of casual vandalism the Government have now added a statutory instrument which, if it were used in the case of our exiting the EU with no deal, would reduce the protection of exclusive intellectual property. The problem is caused by the SI’s approach to supplementary protection certificates—SPCs—which are a key part of the intellectual property protection framework for pharmaceutical research. SPCs are intended to give a period of exclusivity from inherent risks in the development of new pharmaceutical products. But the industry’s trade bodies—both the BIA and the ABPI—are convinced that, in the real world that they occupy, the SPCs as structured in this SI are fundamentally flawed.

In their view—the exact opposite of the Minister’s—this flaw reduces the period of exclusivity for drugs authorised in the UK, because the start of the period for exclusivity in the UK is backdated to a drug’s earlier authorisation in the EU. They are losing a bit of their exclusivity period. The chief executive of the ABPI put this extremely well:

“Britain is internationally renowned for its strong IP framework and this has made it an attractive home for investment from all industrial sectors, including pharmaceuticals. We’re concerned that these measures are a step backwards and seriously undermine the strong life sciences sector that we’ve worked so hard to build over the past 70 years”.


These views are shared by the BIA.

The problem has arisen in large part from the Government’s failure to consult properly on these regulations at the outset—as has been shown to be the case in other no-deal SIs, as we have already discussed. I drew the Minister’s attention in Grand Committee to the inadequacies of that consultation process, and I am pleased to see that he seems to have accepted some of that and tried to rectify matters through proper discussion with the ABPI and the BIA. I congratulate him on taking that particular initiative.

I think that the Minister will be pleased to know that I do not intend to bang on further about past misdemeanours. Instead, I ask him to give the industry two clear-cut assurances about the future conduct of the Government. First, I would like to hear it from him, on the record, that the Government recommit to the UK’s status as a world leader in safeguarding intellectual property and commit to make no further erosions of the UK intellectual property framework; and, secondly, that the Government commit to a specific review of the intellectual property legislation being introduced through statutory instruments as part of the no-deal Brexit planning. The reason for that second one is, frankly, that the industry is very sceptical about whether the Government will just drop these proposals if there is a deal. Ministers in the Government need to understand that they have lost a lot of the confidence of this sector. The time has come for them to start to rebuild that confidence in an industry which is vital for this country’s future.

Lord Clement-Jones Portrait Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
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My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Warner, has expressed the impact on the life sciences industry extremely effectively and eloquently, and I do not wish to repeat anything of what he said. Quite apart from the damning quote from the chief executive, Mike Thompson, the key sentence that I saw in the ABPI’s briefing was:

“The signal the Government has sent to global pharmaceutical companies large and small is that the UK will be less committed to IP protection after Brexit than it has been to date”.


For a major industry to consider that seems extremely damning.

As the noble Lord, Lord Warner, pointed out, the Minister said that it is correct to raise these issues and he is keen to start exploring them, so there is some intention now to have some consultation post the SI rather than proper consultation before it. I think we are looking forward to hearing a bit more of a concrete proposal from the Minister with regard to what precisely is planned.

The Minister’s six and a half-page letter, as we must now call it, dealt with the question of participation in the unified patent court, as set out in the White Paper last autumn. I made the point in Committee that if the UP convention is ratified by Germany and comes into force ahead of our exit date, the UK will need to work out how to remain a member of the UPC or withdraw from the systems, which could have significant impacts on business. In that context, I questioned in Committee whether the UK will have to acknowledge the supremacy of EU law and the ECJ as part of the signing up process. In his letter, the Minister advises that,

“when ruling on domestic cases, UK courts will not be bound to follow decisions of the UPC, or rulings of the European Court of Justice applied by the UPC”.

The last time we discussed this SI, I brandished a 39-page opinion on the subject, so I am rather baffled by the advice that the IPO and the Minister have received in those circumstances, if we have signed up to the unified patent court agreement. I would very much like to hear a bit more clarification on that subject from the Minister.

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Portrait Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
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My Lords, this is another good debate on these issues. I will not fall out with the Minister about the length of his letter—we can brag about size elsewhere if we wish to—but it came out of my printer at eight pages. I leave that curious intellectual puzzle to him to sort out. Maybe there were other issues that had to be added in.

The Minister could well have dealt with other matters, including various aspects of whether the Silhouette case would apply in this area of the law; one of the points raised in the correspondence was the question of whether Silhouette, which applies to one aspect of our intellectual property, in fact has resonance through its relationship to the other aspects of the IP world and will also be applied. However, that may be for the future.

The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, is right to raise questions about the unified patent court, which could change the game here. If the Minister is minded to confirm any of the points raised by the noble Lord, can he also confirm that premises for the unified patent court have been acquired in London? Are they fully available and ready to be moved into? We are expecting the courts to be operational very shortly, but it would be useful to have confirmation that this is still the case.

17:00
The issues have been well rehearsed. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for continuing to press as to exactly what issues were raised by the consultation that did not happen, by the people who were not consulted and by the organisations which should have been consulted in order for us to have a better understanding of how this would play when the SI is made. It again raises the question of how consultation is done when there is a significant change in the law.
This is the first of the two intellectual property SIs over which the Government have exercised their judgment to try to assist future negotiations and debates by finding an asymmetric solution. I will come back to this in the next SI. We should not take at face value the view that this would roll forward the exact situation that existed prior to our leaving on a no-deal arrangement. There are changes being made. They may be good and sensible, but they have not been subject to the sort of consultation and debate nor to the costings that would have been appropriate were this an ordinary situation.
Lord Adonis Portrait Lord Adonis (Lab)
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My Lords, I want to follow the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Warner. It is deeply unsatisfactory that the only way we can know the interests of those most intimately affected is if an individual Member of your Lordships’ House relates conversations that they have had to this House. In Grand Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Warner, told us about conversations that he had had but which had not been published because there had been no formal consultation.

The Minister said that he has met relevant stakeholders. We are grateful for that. I hope that, in his reply, he will clarify the issue about the duration of SPCs, particularly for the benefit of those of us who do not follow the detail of what is at stake. I take the noble Lord, Lord Warner, to be saying that a substantive change in the duration of SPCs will take place as a result of these regulations and that this will have a major impact on the industry concerned because of the protection of intellectual property. So this is not, as we have been told all along, a technical issue about rolling over existing regulations. It is a substantive change. This has never been clearly brought out in our proceedings.

Lord Warner Portrait Lord Warner
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Just to be clear, the industry is saying that, because of the way in which the Government have drafted this SI, the period of exclusivity will be less than it would have been in the past. So there is a material change in the financial benefit through the period of protection that was previously given. The industry is worried not just about that aspect but about the signal it gives about whether the Government are going to move away from a gold-standard intellectual property framework. They are worried that this is the first step in this particular direction.

Lord Adonis Portrait Lord Adonis
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I understand the significant point that the noble Lord makes.

None of this came out in the Explanatory Memorandum’s summary of the non-existent consultation and secret discussions that took place. The only reason this has come before your Lordships is because of the successive conversations which the noble Lord, Lord Warner, has had with the industry. His point seems entirely reasonable. The industry is concerned as to what this means for the wider protection of intellectual property and the big impact it might have on investment in a crucial national industry. This is not a technical issue; it is fundamental. We were not alerted—in any part of the process leading to these regulations coming before the House—about any of these issues.

The Minister said that, since the Grand Committee debate, he has conducted discussions with industry representatives. We should be grateful that, by calling attention to the lack of consultation, this encouraged the Government to engage in more formal consultation after the instrument was laid. In my day, good government involved consulting about instruments before they were laid, not afterwards. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, and I were in the ancien régime when there was Cabinet Office guidance on 12 weeks’ consultation and publication of consultation results to which the Government gave reasonable responses. In this national emergency, all this no longer applies.

I should be grateful if the Minister could bring out precisely—because it is important that we have it in Hansard—what is the substantive change in respect of SPCs and what is in fact at stake in terms of the lesser protection that will be available for crucial intellectual property in the industry. It is still not clear to me from the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, but since he is doing such a good job of responding to the debate, he may be able to tell us the scale of the impact that this is likely to have. Are we talking about minor changes, because it is calculating differences in dates at which patents were granted, as I understand it, and whether European and UK patents are granted at different times under the new regime? I should be grateful if the Minister could say more and clarify more.

The other significant point about the regulations is that the consultation was not just secret, in the way I set out in my earlier remarks, but in his introductory remarks the Minister did not address the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Warner: that there is still profound dissatisfaction in the industry. All the Minister told us in his rather—if he will forgive me for saying so—bland opening remarks was that he had met industry representatives. He did not say anything about the content of those discussions or what representations were made to him. We only know about the content of those representations because of the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Warner. I deduced from his remarks that those representatives are profoundly dissatisfied, think that this will be a diminution of the protection of intellectual property in the industry, are worried about the cavalier way in which this has been done and think it might have a big impact on future investment. These are substantial matters. As I said, in the normal course of events, they would lead us seriously to question what is effectively a proposed change in the law.

If we had a proper legislative process, we would be moving amendments and might require formal consultation to take place. It is deeply unsatisfactory that these big concerns are dribbling out only because of the activity of a few noble Lords independently consulting industry stakeholders and pressing the Government to give us some indication of what they have said, while the Government shield behind a claim that these are technical changes, which is denied by the industry. For the Government to say that the consultations that have taken place are necessarily secret is totally unsatisfactory for such changes.

Lord Henley Portrait Lord Henley
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, first, I repeat that we do not want to move away from the gold standard of IP that we have. Secondly, I make it quite clear that I regularly meet the two organisations referred to, the BIA and the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry. The chief executives of both those organisations sit on our Life Sciences Industrial Strategy Implementation Board, so I see them both regularly. I hope that we have a very good relationship and that full and frank discussion is always possible between me and them and between them and the department more generally.

Lord Warner Portrait Lord Warner
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I just want to be clear to the Minister. What representatives of the industry are telling me in the letters and briefings they have sent is that they have interpreted the Government’s behaviour as meaning that they think that the Government is signalling that we are moving away from a gold standard of intellectual property protection.

The reason they say that is that, in this particular case, we will now have two regulators—when we come out of the EMEA, we will have a UK and an EU regulator for pharmaceutical products. I cannot put it any more clearly than this. They are saying that, if you apply for authorisation of a drug under the UK regulator, the period of exclusivity should start from the date of authorisation; it should start not from any authorisation that may have been given by the EU regulator at an earlier date for the drug to be introduced in the EU but from the authorisation when the drug is authorised in the UK. I do not think that I can be clearer than that. There is clearly a fundamental difference of view between the industry and the Government on this issue. No amount of fine words from the Minister is going to conceal that.

Lord Henley Portrait Lord Henley
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My Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Warner, will allow me, I was trying to say that, first, I want to continue discussions with them and we will do that. I do not believe that we are as far apart as the noble Lord is suggesting; nor do I believe that we are undermining the gold standard in IP that we wish it to achieve.

We do not want to do anything to undermine our large and successful pharmaceutical industry. It is one of the jewels in the crown, and has a turnover of £41.8 billion. I remind the noble Lord that it has seen a large amount of investment in research, particularly since 2016, and considerable new investment from abroad—again, since 2016. This is an industry that is flourishing and will continue to flourish. We believe that the level of investment within that industry that is supported by the SPC system, which ensures that British businesses are compensated for the period of patent loss protection while requesting market authorisation, is very important. Making sure that our law continues to work is therefore important.

The noble Lord, Lord Warner, says that there is a flaw in the SI: he says that there is a policy change. There was considerable debate on the issue in Committee. As I said previously, I do not share the view that there is a policy change here. This instrument keeps in place the existing calculation of SPC duration. At present, it is calculated from the first market authorisation in the EEA, which includes the UK. The instrument ensures that the exact position remains in place after exit and the calculation is the same. It is precisely this kind of deficiency that the withdrawal Act gave Ministers powers to affect.

The noble Lords, Lord Warner and Lord Adonis, then talked about the industry and said that it wants something different. The BIA and the other organisations representing pharmaceutical innovators would prefer the legislation to be changed so that the term of an SPC would be calculated based on only a UK market authorisation. They argue that the exit may lead to industry launching new pharmaceutical products later in the UK and that they may receive later market authorisation than in the rest of the EEA. That would give a period of SPC exclusivity for a longer period than under current laws. I can see why they argue that point: it is perfectly legitimate that they should do so. However, it would be a significant policy change, affecting the whole of the pharmaceutical industry and the NHS. I do not believe that it would meet the Government’s commitment to avoid a cliff edge for businesses by maintaining the status quo, which is what we are seeking to do, on exit day.

I turn now to the commitment that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, sought from me about whether we would commit to a review within two years. As I have already said, I am keen that we immediately start to consult with all those bodies concerned, and more widely—indeed, with everyone that noble Lords can think of—and explore the landscape after a no-deal exit, and also to look at what happens in other events, to make progress on the issues that concern them. As part of those discussions, I am very happy to talk about the timing and scope of any review of the SPC term. The Government have said that they will review the data and market exclusivity arrangements within two years of a no-deal exit—should there be such an exit, and again we have made it clear that we neither expect nor want a no-deal exit—in order to make sure that we remain competitive. I am sure that we can discuss with stakeholders how any review of SPCs would fit in with that work.

The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, asked about unified patent court judgments in the UK. I can tell him that the UPC is an international court and is not part of the UK judicial system. Its judgments are therefore not binding but can be considered, as is the case with any other foreign judgments. That is obviously a matter for the courts.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, also asked about the unified patent court. I can tell him that the unified patent court and the new British patent will commence shortly after Germany ratifies the UPC agreement, although obviously we have no control over what goes on in Germany. Germany’s ratification is currently on hold pending the outcome of a complaint against the UPC to its constitutional court. Finally, I can tell the noble Lord that the London building is indeed ready.

Lord Clement-Jones Portrait Lord Clement-Jones
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My Lords, how can it be a unified patent unless there is unified set of jurisprudence to cover it?

Lord Henley Portrait Lord Henley
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, as I have said, these are matters which the UK courts can take into consideration. However, the judgments of international courts are not binding on them. I think that I have answered all the questions and I beg to move.

Motion agreed.

Trade Marks (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
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Motion to Approve
17:15
Moved by
Lord Henley Portrait Lord Henley
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 28 November 2018 be approved. Debated in Grand Committee on 14 January.

Lord Henley Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Henley) (Con)
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My Lords, as with earlier instruments on exhaustion and patents, this was debated on 14 January in Grand Committee, where noble Lords raised questions about the consultation and impact assessment process. Noble Lords also put some questions on technical points specific to this SI, seeking clarification on ongoing proceedings, costs and priority dates of pending applications. I repeat my thanks to all noble Lords who shared their time and expertise with the Committee on those matters. I addressed many of the points raised in my letter of 21 January to Members of the Committee. I hope that my answers were helpful and have met the expectations of noble Lords who took part.

The Government have laid these regulations to ensure continued protection in the UK for EU trademarks, thereby providing businesses with maximum security, clarity and certainty. Under current law, businesses can obtain an EU trademark, which, as a unitary right, provides protection across the whole of the EU. When we leave the EU, that protection will no longer extend to the UK. To address this, the Government will create a comparable UK trademark for every EU right that is registered on and before exit day. These comparable trademarks will inherit earlier filing and priority dates recorded against the corresponding EU trademarks and will be fully independent UK rights that can be challenged, assigned, licensed or renewed separately from the original EU trademark. Each comparable trademark will be created automatically and free of charge, meaning that a minimum administrative burden will be placed on rights holders. Those not seeking to hold comparable UK trademarks will be able to opt out by notifying the IPO. The instrument also sets out the Government’s approach for accommodating the 85,000 trademark applications which are pending before the EU Intellectual Property Office on exit day.

A number of technical issues were raised both during and after Grand Committee. Given my answers in my letter to noble Lords, I shall focus on those outstanding concerns which were raised subsequent to my letter. The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, inquired in Grand Committee about the effect of priority dates on pending applications and compatibility with the Paris convention. I was pleased to have a meeting with the noble Baroness and trademark legal professionals to discuss these and other matters that she raised. At that meeting I clarified that we believe the instrument is compatible with the UK’s obligations under the provisions of the Paris Convention for the Protection of Industrial Property, which contain rules on claiming international priority.

I remain confident that the chosen approach provides the most practical means for preserving the rights of pending EU trademark applications. In respect of issues identified with the conversion of EU trademarks, I have also confirmed to the noble Baroness that such rights will be preserved via provisions contained in the Interpretation Act 1978. A copy of my letter, which addresses the noble Baroness’s concerns on both the Paris convention and conversion rights, will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. I found our discussions on these two issues most helpful, and was grateful to the noble Baroness for her valuable insight as a trademark and patent attorney. Building on those discussions, I will ensure that her points are reflected in business guidance to be published by the IPO closer to exit day.

In conclusion, these regulations are vital to ensure that businesses do not lose their trademark protection in the UK, and to ensure the continued effectiveness of our domestic trademark system if we do not secure a deal with the EU. I hope noble Lords will support the draft regulations, which I believe provide businesses with clarity and certainty regarding their intellectual property. I beg to move.

Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted Portrait Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, first, I declare my interests. I am a retired European patent and trademark attorney, but, if I were to un-retire, I would find myself among those unfortunates who, going forward, would no longer be able to practise before the EUIPO in respect of trademarks and designs. This matter—that a part of professionals’ representation is cut off—is not one we have discussed before. My noble friend Lord Clement-Jones was interested to hear what the Minister had to say on the issue, and to confirm my interpretation that current UK representatives will no longer be representatives is correct.

This SI largely replicates the provision in the withdrawal agreement, so it is not really a no-deal SI; it is the shape of the SI that will happen in due course—if there is a deal—possibly with some minor changes to dates and other things, but I could not see anything that differed from what one would expect under the withdrawal agreement.

As the noble Lord, Lord Henley, has explained, I had a long meeting with him and officials from the department and the IPO; I thank them very much for their time and for listening to my views and those of some representatives. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, but I did a little secret consultation myself, just to make sure that, being retired, I had not lost the plot. What I wanted was a statement that there would be continuity of rights at the point of Brexit so that, although the SI was internally consistent under UK law—it gave clear instructions as to what our courts would decide—it would also neatly fit within the usual conventions. That required only an assertion, which we have effectively had, that the rights continue—rather than dying and, in some way, being resurrected.

The letter that the noble Lord, Lord Henley, has now placed in the Library, and which was addressed to me on 4 February, is interesting. First, he deals with the priority rights that I discussed in the Moses Room in Grand Committee. The second issue I raised was about an EU trademark application that was refused before Brexit but, under the rules, it can be converted to a national application by applying at the EU end for three months. There was concern that there is no mention of what happened to those applications and to that conversion right. Was is lost or was it not? Some representatives thought that it was lost.

The letter refers to the Interpretation Act, and it is worth pointing out what that Act says. It confirms that an Act that repeals an enactment does not affect,

“any right, privilege, obligation or liability acquired, accrued or incurred under that enactment”.

The letter goes on to say that the EU trademark regulation will constitute EU retained law for the purposes of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018; and that pursuant to the power in that Act, it is repealed and replaced by the UK regulation. This solves the problem. There is a definite assertion here that the right to convert will be retained but the conversion will be done entirely before the UK IPO, instead of starting it off in the EU. This general application of the Interpretation Act would apply to any regulations, not just these; it might be applied to those on patents that we have just discussed. That is one reason why I asked that the letter be put in the Library. It is possible that we contemplated this when we were going round the loop of the withdrawal Act, but I had misplaced it in my mind, and that might be the case for other noble Lords.

I am satisfied that it is “job done” on the confirmation of continuity and the issues I sought reassurance on. I am also grateful to the Minister for explaining that the Government will take into account the various other measures we raised, which are much more to do with practice.

The salient point here is that some 60% of trademark applications are made by individuals for their own businesses, without professional assistance. So it is quite important that the advice the IPO is able to give keeps them up to speed with changes that they might not be aware of, such as that they still have the conversion right and for how long.

There is still a matter to be dealt with: for nine months, there are latent rights hanging about. If you file a trademark application, it might look like the way is clear and then, all of a sudden, it is not, because people want to continue with the one they have under the EU. The question is how the IPO is to deal with notification, so that an applicant knows the full picture before making decisions that might be otherwise prejudicial to their rights when deciding whether to go ahead and have notice sent to people or to withdraw their application. My proposal was that they have to have the right to be able to suspend until that nine-month period is over, if it looks as though there is something in their way. Obviously, this is not a matter for this statutory instrument, but it will turn out to be a matter of concern if a significant number of those 85,000 applications are continued with. From what I can gather, it is likely that more than half will be, so intervening applicants will have a difficult nine months to navigate.

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Portrait Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, we discussed this SI in some detail in Grand Committee and so there is very little more to be said. The Minister, in his letter of six and a half pages—or is it eight?—covered a number of points also. We have since then had another letter—I have printed it out on my own machine and have it in front of me and so can measure it; it is a page and a half, if he wishes to know the detail—which has added a considerable amount, including the rather interesting extemporary view that the UK Interpretation Act 1978 confirms different powers about these regulations, and which might be of more relevance in some other areas of work that we still have to consider.

We are very lucky to have the expertise of the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, available to us on this issue. She has been able to keep us right on a number of points. My point follows from hers in that this SI is moving away from simply trying to establish what continuity would mean in the context of a no-deal exit by offering something valuable to those who hold trademarks in the EU and wish to continue business in the UK after Brexit.

17:30
It could be argued—I am not saying that it should be—that it is right to apply what will apply in the EU to this issue: in a no-deal exit, the UK would register those who wished to register UK trademarks here and leave aside the question of what rights trademarks registered in the EU would have here. That is not what the Government have decided. I believe they have agreed that rights registered in the EU will be recognised within the UK. I will not ignore the clear benefit there for consumers, but it must be detrimental to current and future UK holders of trademarks who will not be able to register them in the same way as they would had we stayed in the EU.
I do not think that there is a right or wrong answer to that—it is probably where we would want to get to at some point—but it implies a reciprocal activity on behalf of the EU which is still not present. It is foreshadowed in the withdrawal agreement and may well come to pass. If there is a deal, we would probably expect to have a parallel process. If we will continue to operate on intellectual property on all fours, particularly in relation to data protection, this is exactly where we will have to go. That may be right in policy terms, but it marks out this statutory instrument as different from the others. I do not think that the Minister needs to give us too much of a response, because it is a fact, rather than an issue. If he confirms that this is the situation, it would be helpful to have it on the record.
Lord Adonis Portrait Lord Adonis (Lab)
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My Lords, this was the famous statutory instrument which referred to consultation with,

“a small group of trusted individuals”.

We had a long discussion in Grand Committee about who should or should not be trusted at the Government’s discretion. This was not satisfactorily resolved. However, the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, has continued those conversations; I am sure that her discussions were with wholly trusted individuals and that her further discussions with the Minister have led to improvements in the regime that will follow from the statutory instrument.

I would like the Minister to clarify the issue of renewal fees so that I and the people reading our proceedings fully understand it. This was raised in Grand Committee, and the noble Lord referred to it in his six and a half page letter. As I understand it, the key passage is about what happens when people need to hold two sets of trademarks, rather than one, after renewal. I want to be clear that I have understood this correctly: the letter from the noble Lord, Lord Henley, says that around 10% of trademarks which are renewed each year,

“are held by UK businesses, and so we estimate that 60% of the 1.3 million newly-created comparable UK trade marks will be renewed at an annual cost to UK business of around £2.5 million in additional renewal fees”.

Are those wholly additional fees that businesses and individuals will have to pay, over and above what they would pay at the moment? Have I correctly understood that they need to pay those fees because they are very likely to need to hold two sets of trademarks—for the EU and the UK—in parallel? This has come out only through our consideration of this instrument and was not clear in the initial consultation or the Explanatory Memorandum. I am not in this industry, but this would seem to be a significant additional burden. People need to be aware. Case by case, we are seeing all of these additional burdens as a result of a no-deal Brexit. It is deplorable that we are imposing additional costs on businesses and individuals in this cavalier way.

Lord Henley Portrait Lord Henley
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My Lords, I am very grateful to all those who have spoken. I was particularly grateful to hear the noble Baroness say—I think I have this right—the words, “job done”. I hope we can get this order on the statute book. Although the noble Baroness brings great expertise to this matter, there are others—I dare say the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, would agree—who do not have that same degree of expertise. There is to some extent the sense of cold towels wrapped around our heads and strong black coffee as we consider these difficult and technical matters. We are grateful for that expertise. Even if the noble Baroness has now retired from this area, we will continue to discuss these issues with her and other trusted individuals, with the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and with anyone else—trusted, untrusted or otherwise—who has a relevant concern in these matters; it is very important to do so. As the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, put it—so well, as always—there are benefits to the owners of trademarks and benefits to consumers; it is therefore appropriate that we strike the right balance between those two groups. Dealing with conflicting rights is one of the difficult things that those in government have to do.

The noble Baroness asked about representation at the EU Intellectual Property Office. The EU trademark regulation mandates that a representative must be based in an EU member state in order to represent clients before the EU Intellectual Property Office. Officials in the IPO and in the Ministry of Justice are aware of this issue and have held many discussions with representative groups. As we turn to the future economic partnership, we will seek a comprehensive arrangement on trade and services, including professional and business services.

I want to make it quite clear, as I did in Grand Committee, that we believe it important that the guidance we offer to business is targeted and clear, particularly as the noble Baroness stressed the number of unrepresented businesses. Although the sensible thing would be to take advice from the noble Baroness’s profession, clearly many people prefer to avoid those in the legal and other professions. We will ensure that the right guidance is offered and highlight the importance of searching the EU register. I am grateful to her for raising those issues again.

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, raised the subject of renewal fees and costs and referred to some remarks from my letter. Analysis of existing UK rights shows that the average cost of renewing a comparable right will be approximately £300, due every 10 years. If rights owners do not wish to renew their UK trademark, for example because they have no interest in preserving UK protection, they do not have to pay the fee. But, as the letter makes clear, businesses will incur additional costs should they want to enforce their UK-compatible rights or defend them against a challenge. That cost will vary depending on the length of proceedings and the amount of evidence considered. However, as the letter says, the IPO estimates that the total cost to UK businesses would be around £330,000 per year. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, can make use of that information as he wishes in any discussion of the merits or otherwise of Brexit.

On his last point, the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, will appreciate that it is only possible for us to pass legislation affecting the UK. The withdrawal agreement will provide for reciprocal measures with the EU, when and if that is agreed. I believe I have answered all the questions put to me.

Motion agreed.

Broadcasting (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Motion to Approve
17:40
Moved by
Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
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That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 13 December 2018 be approved.

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)
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My Lords, now that we have disposed of the business expected to be brief, I am glad that we can get on to the main business.

These instruments are being made under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. They make appropriate amendments to correct deficiencies in domestic broadcasting law in a no-deal EU exit scenario. I think we can all agree that, no matter what our respective views on EU exit are, we need to ensure that television services available in the UK are regulated properly and that the public continue to be effectively protected from harmful content after we leave the EU. We also need to make sure that the same laws and rules that are currently in place in the UK continue to apply, providing continuity and certainty.

I have to stress that these draft regulations address only the necessary technical amendments to ensure that the law is operative on exit day, rather than introducing sweeping new powers into law. The Delegated Legislation Committee has been content with these draft regulations and Her Majesty’s Opposition in the other place agreed that,

“this is a necessary measure that has to be taken”.—[Official Report, Commons, Sixth Delegated Legislation Committee, 29/1/19; col. 5.]

As noble Lords may know, the European Union’s Audiovisual Media Services Directive currently underpins several pieces of UK primary legislation, including the Communications Act 2003. We are therefore using Section 8 powers from the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 to fix deficiencies in primary legislation to ensure that Ofcom continues to have jurisdiction over services that are available to UK audiences, or are established in the UK.

Let me summarise the main provisions of the draft regulations and why they are important. If we leave the EU without an agreement in place, the Audiovisual Media Services Directive will no longer apply. The directive—“AVMSD” as it is commonly known—establishes minimum content standards and provides for freedom of reception and retransmission for audio-visual services such as television and video on demand. Crucially, AVMSD provides that a service which is regulated in one member state can adhere to that country’s rules while being available all across the EU. Services are thus allowed to operate with a single regulator’s licence, regardless of where the service is received in the EU. This is known as the country of origin principle.

In the event of the UK exiting the EU without a deal, the country of origin system of authorising services would be deficient, as reciprocal arrangements created by AVMSD would no longer exist. Without the amendments carried out through this instrument, television services originating in EU member states would still be allowed to be broadcast in the UK without a licence, thereby leaving the UK with no possibility of regulating the content of such services and protecting UK viewers from harmful content. The draft regulations remedy this deficiency by introducing the country of destination principle, which will require any television service that is available in the UK, whatever its country of origin, to be licensed by Ofcom.

However, a licence will not be required for television services provided by broadcasters in those countries that have signed and ratified the Council of Europe’s European Convention on Transfrontier Television, known as the ECTT, which the draft regulations would implement into UK law. The ECTT was signed and ratified by the UK in 1993, but it has not been implemented into UK law because of a disconnect clause in the convention which provides that EU member states must apply the relevant EU legislation in their mutual relations instead. The convention provides for a similar system of freedom of reception and transmission between the parties to the convention as the country of origin principle. All but seven of the EU 27 countries are parties to the ECTT.

17:45
While the convention cannot be considered a full replacement for the AVMSD, the ECTT sets out some minimum content standards for cross-border services and a system of mutual co-operation to enforce the standards. Furthermore, both the AVMSD and the ECTT provide that a majority of transmission time on a television channel must be reserved for works of European origin. The AVMSD refers to the convention in its definition of European works, and this in turn safeguards the UK’s status as a producer of European works, which is important for content sales and the UK production industry. This has been confirmed by the European Commission.
The draft regulations also ensure that services with Irish language content— RTÉ One, RTÉ 2 and TG4—continue to be available in Northern Ireland. The UK made those commitments in the Good Friday Agreement, and later through the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. This is necessary because these services are established in Ireland, which is not a party to the ECTT, so under the changes introduced through the draft regulations, they would now need to be licensed by Ofcom. However, we are making these services exempt from this requirement, to keep within the spirit of the Good Friday agreement.
The draft regulations introduce a new power for the Secretary of State, who will be able to designate regulated electronic programme guides after consulting with Ofcom. This was a necessary change because Ofcom’s jurisdiction depends on whether services are available on UK EPGs. We need the power to amend the list of regulated EPGs if there are new EPG entrants into the market. Being a designated EPG does not in and of itself carry any burdens on the companies who provide EPGs. Rather, creating this category was a necessary change to ensure that the legislation around licencing continues to operate effectively.
To conclude, I believe that the draft regulations are necessary to ensure that the UK statute book works on exit and that audiences are protected from harm, and I commend them to the House.
Lord Foster of Bath Portrait Lord Foster of Bath (LD)
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My Lords, the Minister will be pleased to hear that it is not my intention to oppose to this instrument. As he indicated, in the event of a no-deal Brexit, we need to ensure that those companies that provide at least linear television services in the UK are properly licensed—whether they are based here or elsewhere—and that viewers are protected. However, I take a very different view from the Minister in describing this instrument, particularly the description we find in the Explanatory Memorandum. Paragraph 12.3, for example, explains and justifies the lack of an impact assessment on the grounds that,

“the instrument will maintain the status quo as far as possible”.

It also suggests that the only inconvenience broadcasters with services available in the UK will face is the,

“need to familiarise themselves with new licensing system and guidance as proposed by Ofcom”.

Both lines show significant complacency on the part of the Government and are a massive oversimplification of what will happen if the instrument is needed.

The Explanatory Memorandum states explicitly that,

“no, or no significant, impact”,

on the private or voluntary sector is foreseen. Frankly, this is nonsense. When this instrument was debated in the other place on 29 January, the Minister there, Margot James, was forced to admit that at least 50 or 60 channels will for the first time be required to be licensed by Ofcom—hardly evidence of no, or no significant, impact.

Even more significantly, the Minister appeared to acknowledge that the loss of involvement with the AVMS directive regime, including the country of origin principle, should be of concern to us in this country, noting that the UK currently has a sizeable share of the entire European television market. As noble Lords will be well aware, we have something like 1,200 of the 3,000 channels across the whole of the EU. She said:

“A sector that grows at 25% more than the average rate of the economy is certainly a success. In part, that success is indeed down to the very beneficial regime, the AVMSD”.—[Official Report, Commons, Sixth Delegated Legislation Committee, 29/1/19; col. 7.]


So the loss of that “very beneficial regime” can surely be expected to have rather more than,

“no, or no significant, impact”.

The reason, of course, is that owners of the 600 or so channels currently licensed in this country but shown in other EU countries will now need to make new arrangements, not least by seeking licences elsewhere in the European Union. As I am sure noble Lords are well aware, to achieve that, they will either have to move their headquarters from the UK to another EU 27 country, or at the very least move some of their editorial staff to ensure that they have what is known as a “meaningful presence” in a different European country.

We already know that Sony is moving its headquarters to the Netherlands. We have already heard about Discovery Channel, Turner and NBC planning the movement of staff. Even the BBC is planning the movement of staff. Hardly surprisingly, Ireland, Germany and the Benelux countries—Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg—are all actively targeting UK-based companies to persuade them to move to their country so that they can benefit from the AVMS directive and the current country of origin regime.

Given that we do not know yet which companies are likely to move their headquarters or their staff, and we do not know where they are likely to go, or how many staff are likely to go with them, it is difficult to be clear about precisely what the impact will be. However, I would argue strongly that there should have been a detailed assessment of the likely impact. We should have had, for example, detailed discussions with each of the potential receiving countries about what is meant in their country by a “meaningful presence” to ensure that a company would be allowed a licence in that country. Indeed, it is somewhat unclear what a meaningful presence in this country would be. Could the Minister give us a definition of what would amount to a meaningful presence here, enabling a company to get a licence here?

We know that some UK-based companies already have staff in other countries. I am not suggesting that there will be a total flood of people leaving, which would be catastrophic for the industry, but it will certainly make a significant dent in our world-beating broadcasting sector. Does the Minister believe the words in the Explanatory Memorandum—that there will be,

“no, or no significant, impact”?

Can he justify why we have not had an impact assessment for this instrument?

I am aware that when the Minister responds to my query he may refer to the convention on transfrontier television—the ECTT. He may argue, just as the instrument does, that implementing the ECTT—which, as he rightly pointed out, we signed and ratified as far back as 1993—provides a similar system of freedom of reception and transmission between the parties to the convention as the AVMS does between EU members. If the Minister uses that to justify the claim that,

“the instrument will maintain the status quo as far as possible”,

I suspect he will be in significant difficulty, because there are major problems in making that claim.

The Minister said that “only seven” of the EU member states are not members of the ECTT. However, only seven is more than 25% of the EU 27, so that means that UK companies that wish to have their channels shown in Belgium, Denmark, Greece, Luxembourg, Sweden or—especially important in this regard—the Netherlands or Ireland, will have no choice but to move HQ, as I said, or at least to move some staff, to another EU country. So will he acknowledge that describing the ECTT as a “similar system” is not a widely shared view?

Indeed, PACT—a trade organisation representing, among others, UK television companies—notes that the enforcement regime of the ECTT has nothing like the same ultimate recourse to a body such as the EU Court of Justice. COBA, the Commercial Broadcasters Association, describes the ECTT as having significant limitations. Our own House of Lords EU Select Committee, in HL Paper 135, said that,

“neither the Transfrontier Television Convention nor coproduction treaties are viable alternatives for trade”.

In the other place, the House of Commons DCMS Select Committee concluded just last month that the ECTT was “severely limited”.

Even the former Digital Minister, Mr Matt Hancock, was forced to admit when giving evidence to the EU Select Committee, that the ECTT was agreed in 1993, and that,

“in this space, that is a long time ago”.

No doubt because of that huge distance, another difference appears, in relation to how the ECTT handles advertising, compared with the AVMS directive.

If the Minister needs any further convincing, he should surely note what the creators of the ECTT itself said. What did the Council of Europe say about it? It published a paper very recently—its 2018 report, Brexit: The Impact on the Audiovisual Sector—which says:

“In the absence of the COO principle, UK-based companies would face new barriers when broadcasting to Europe and could choose to relocate their headquarters to another member state, with the consequent direct negative effects on employment in the UK, and additional indirect losses for the UK creative economy”.


Even the creators of the ECTT do not appear to think of it as the solution to the problem. Faced with all this, does the Minister stick to the view that the ECTT is a similar system to the AVMS directive, that if we implement it there will be no, or no significant, impact, and that the status quo is being maintained? Surely he cannot agree with any of that.

I turn now to another aspect of the instrument that definitely does not meet the Government’s claim to be maintaining the status quo. By waiving any UK licence or notification requirements for on-demand services other than UK-based ones, they will intensify rather than mitigate the already uneven playing field between linear and the increasingly popular on-demand services. It is already bizarre that, in relation to non-EU so-called third countries, we rely on the host country’s regulator to provide a licence, and no UK licence is required, even if the services are being made available here in the UK.

Of course, I am prepared to admit that, in a sense, under the AVMS directive that is also true for on-demand service providers coming from the other EU 27 countries. But there is a major proviso: there is no formal legal dispute mechanism through the European Commission in the alternative arrangements. We will suddenly deny ourselves any formal dispute mechanism, at least for on-demand services coming to the UK from the EU 27 countries.

18:00
The instrument makes a major change to the status quo. COBA gives an excellent example of why this is a problem by considering what would happen if we in the UK wished to introduce new rules for on-demand services over and above the standards required by the EU 27 under EU rules. It suggests considering what would happen if, for example, we in this country wished to place further restrictions on the advertising rules for foods high in fat, sugar and salt—something I believe we are very likely to do in the near future. In such a case, we would be reliant on the EU, which we will have just left, to enforce those new rules for us. That seems highly unlikely, not least when the EU 27’s on-demand services are already meeting arrangements in line with EU requirements. Why would they want to accede to our wishes in those circumstances?
More generally, this instrument could have provided a vehicle to address the uneven playing field between linear and on-demand services. I regret that it did not but, to be fair, the Government acknowledge the problem. In the other place the Minister, Margot James, said:
“We recognise that after exit we may need to consider a long-term and future-proofed approach to video-on-demand regulation”.—[Official Report, Commons, Sixth Delegated Legislation Committee, 29/1/19; col. 8.]
It is a widely held view, which I share, that this issue needs to be addressed as quickly as possible. Will the Minister go just that little bit further than Margot James and tell your Lordships’ House that, after exit, the Government will develop plans for a long-term and future-proofed approach to video on demand?
It is clear that this instrument does not live up to the claims made for it in the Explanatory Memorandum. That said, it is still needed to provide protection for UK citizens and a degree of certainty for the providers of broadcasting services here, but I hope I have made clear that exiting the EU will be accompanied by additional burdens for our hugely successful broadcasting sector and the wider creative industries. I hope the Minister will acknowledge that this will be the case and commit the Government to doing all they can to protect our creative industries by, for example, maintaining a strong copyright regime and the existing very successful production incentives of tax breaks. Above all, would the Minister be at least willing to pick up the recommendations from my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones and many on these Benches who have been calling for a rethink on some of the elements of the proposed new immigration system so that broadcasters and others in the creative industries can continue to access highly skilled talent from the EU 27 after Brexit?
Lord Liddle Portrait Lord Liddle (Lab)
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My Lords, I support that excellent speech from the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath. It was extremely well argued and well researched and brought out a series of very real concerns. I have sat patiently through these discussions. We are seeing how Brexit will potentially destroy some of the jewels in the crown of Britain’s industrial and economic capacity. There is no more striking case of this than in broadcasting, which is one of Britain’s great success stories.

My experience of this is as a member of your Lordships’ Internal Market Sub-Committee of the European Union Select Committee, which did a thorough report on non-financial services and took evidence from broadcasters. At the time I was really shocked by the concerns expressed about the viability of their activities in this country. There is no doubt, whether to a greater or lesser extent, that what we are talking about will destroy opportunities for hundreds of young people who would otherwise have the chance of really fulfilling jobs in the media and broadcasting sectors.

No one I recall coming across in this field believes that the European convention is a full substitute for the EU directive. I would like to hear on what basis the Minister thinks it is. It clearly is deficient in that it is not comprehensive and does not have any means of enforcement through the Commission and the court. The fact is our industry is showing that it has no confidence in this poor substitute by the fact so many companies are relocating to the continent.

One thing about the statutory instrument really worries me. What we are doing with it—I can see why from the point of view domestic regulation—is saying that from now on we will no longer have the country of origin principle, but the country of destination principle. That will be used against us by commercial interests on the continent that want to prevent full UK access to the market. They will say, “You want to switch to a country of destination arrangement. That means we insist on the right to regulate your right to broadcast in our country”. This is very bad news for the British entertainment and broadcasting sectors. The Minister has many difficult questions to answer.

Lord Pannick Portrait Lord Pannick (CB)
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My Lords, I share the concerns so powerfully expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Foster. His speech demonstrates that these regulations, like so many of the exit regulations we are debating, raise fundamental policy questions. They are being presented under Section 8 of the withdrawal Act and other powers as merely transitional provisions designed to tidy up loopholes, but they are not. They raise fundamental issues of policy.

I have a specific question for the Minister concerning those broadcasters based in EU states that are not parties to the Council of Europe’s European Convention on Transfrontier Television. As the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Foster, have explained, there is currently no need for Ofcom to license them because they are based in another EU state. As I understand these regulations, and the Minister will correct me if I am wrong, broadcasters based in non-convention states, including Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Ireland—apart from for Irish-language programmes—Sweden and Denmark will now need to be licensed by Ofcom. Is it right that they will have to apply for a licence on 30 March or before then, or will there be a transitional provision by which they will be granted one automatically by reason of the fact they were previously covered by the EU directive?

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Portrait Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
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My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing the instrument before the House this evening. I should declare my interest: I was the Shadow Minister in the other place for the Conservatives when the Ofcom Bill was taken through. I was an adviser to the Conservatives on the committee that covered film policy, and also devised a film policy for the Conservative Party that did not go very far but concluded that it was in their most favoured interest to have a tax break. I have been a beneficiary as a modest investor in films of which I am very proud—not many have been released in the cinema, but they have been broadcast.

The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, asked the very same question on procedure that I would have asked, but I have a very specific question for the Minister that I hope is relevant to this directive. Broadcasters and film producers have benefited from a very specific budget line, which is a legal instrument empowering finances for co-productions throughout the European Union, from which British producers and others have benefited. A number of Danish and Swedish co-productions have been shown on British television, which have been of huge interest to viewers in this country. Going forward, will we benefit from that budget line to the same extent and will co-productions still be viewed as a positive development? It will be of great interest, I am sure, to the film and broadcasting industry to know if that is the case.

Lord Adonis Portrait Lord Adonis (Lab)
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My Lords, I have a very short question for the Minister again on this issue of consultation. The broader issues were raised in the excellent speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Foster. On consultation, in paragraph 10.1, it says:

“Ofcom, as the audiovisual regulator, were consulted in drafting this instrument”.


Was Ofcom the sole body consulted in the preparation of this instrument? In light of the speeches that have been made in the House, I find that extraordinary, given the range of interests, companies and organisations affected. Will the Minister say why Ofcom was the only body consulted, given the broader themes that have come out? It is extraordinary in light of the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Foster, to read paragraphs 7.2 and 7.3 in the Explanatory Memorandum. You would think that you were talking about two entirely separate sets of proposals. Paragraphs 7.2 and 7.3 make it sound as if these changes from country of origin to country of destination are the purely technical and unavoidable dotting of commas and crossing of “t”s as a result of leaving the European Union. Only as the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Foster, unfolded did we realise that these are fundamental changes to the whole broadcasting regime in Europe that could have extensive consequences. In that case, why was Ofcom alone consulted?

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
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I rise briefly to support my noble friend the Minister. It is a difficult situation in broadcasting, and I think it is sensible and creative of DCMS to make use of the Council of Europe treaty. Whatever your views on Brexit, we need to be ready for exit day. This ensures that 50 or 60 channels that will continue to come in from the EU can be regulated against Ofcom standards from 29 March, or at the end of the transition period. Along with the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, I would be interested to hear who has been consulted about the detail of this. There will be scope in the future to look at the longer-term arrangement. As an ex-Minister and ITV director, I look forward to that, including looking at the future of new broadcasting methods, video on demand, the effect of social media, and so on.

18:15
Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Portrait Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)
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My Lords, this is an interesting debate and many points that we will be wrestling with well beyond 29 March have been raised in the course of it. I want to begin my remarks, as I will every time I stand on such an occasion, by bemoaning the fact that so many man and woman hours, by able civil servants, have been necessary to plough their way through successive Acts of Parliament to disentangle and extricate details that can be strung together in order to release them from a perceived enslavement to European legislation—a freeing of them, a “Fidelio” moment, that brings them into the light of day—so that they can then stand on their own feet as part of a self-defined and perfectly functioning legal system in this country. It is very regrettable that all this has had to happen. I used to do textual analysis as a favourite aspect of my studies. I promise that this would defy any of even the most complicated pieces and puzzles that I have wrestled with in the past. We are where we are, but I feel the need to say that. Again and again, hundreds of times, we are going to have to express regrets that all this energy, vitality and brilliance of mind has been tied up into producing what are effectively a strung together set of proposals that get us over the line at the end of March in the event of there being no deal.

Having said that, the second rather general thing that I want to say, which echoes things that have been said by others, relates to consultation. Again and again, that is where my eye goes first when I get these Explanatory Memoranda. Once again, I wonder that only Ofcom has been consulted, when many other bodies have been mentioned in the course of this debate as being stakeholders in all that is about to happen. Surely there might have been consultation in those cases. We are working under pressure, and impact assessments and consultations are both reduced almost to nothing, and we can only regret that. In a previous debate which I was sitting in your Lordships’ House for, I overheard the discussion between my noble friend Lord Adonis and the noble Lord, Lord Warner, who is not now in his place, about what we might have expected in such pieces of secondary legislation, according to the rule book, as it were—12 weeks of consultation, a published account of the results of that, and all part of the debate going forward. Even though I stand here wanting to narrow the considerations that I address to the particular point of keeping something legitimate on the law book to allow us to take that step, I feel it necessary to express regret about the levels of consultation and openness. I do not know what my noble friend Lord Adonis thinks about those who are trustees and on the inside circle who were consulted, but I know there are people in the industry, as far as this one is concerned, who have things to say and whose voices would have been very legitimate in bringing us to this point.

When the matter was debated in the other place, there was a lot of reference to the fact that meaningful presences were beginning to appear in countries on the other side of the Channel. The Minister was asked if she could put a figure on them. She could not and did not. At the same time, we have heard that Sony has already done this, and others look as if they are going to. It is a legitimate thing to ask, regarding the impact of this proposal, to what extent we feel this is going to continue and to be a worrisome factor.

This is a way of coping. The memorandum is my main interpretive document, because while I can read complicated things, these wretched SIs are beyond complicated. No doubt the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, takes them in his stride, with his paracetamol in the morning or something. I thought it was an honest attempt, at the level of getting us from here to there, to look at all the angles that need to be looked at—in a perfunctory manner, yes. I am not an expert in picking up the details of difference between the AVMSD and the ECTT, for example, but it seems to me that the countries that are not in the ECTT, in so far as they are given six months to look at how they are going to harmonise themselves with the proposals being made, have been offered something, anyway, and Ireland seems to have been treated very properly indeed, with the reference to the Good Friday agreement thrown in.

I did not find, granted the narrow concern in front of us here, that there was much I wanted to quarrel with, but in terms of the issues we are bound to go on wrestling with when this particular dust has died down, we can only note what the noble Lord, Lord Foster, and others have said and recognise that this will not be the last word.

Baroness Crawley Portrait Baroness Crawley (Lab)
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My Lords, I have a very short question for the Minister. What would his advice be to UK broadcasters when it comes to working with those countries that are not party to the ECTT? I know that many broadcasters are concerned that these new regulations will not cover the areas that at the moment they just take for granted as far as European-wide broadcasting is concerned. What about those countries, other than Ireland, that are not party to the ECTT?

Lord Puttnam Portrait Lord Puttnam (Lab)
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My Lords, is there anything in the Ofcom response to indicate that any of these changes will benefit the UK production economy, or indeed the UK economy in general? Is there anything in the Ofcom response that suggests this is not negative?

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
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My Lords, I am very grateful for all those interesting points and particularly for the speed at which they were delivered. We might set a record on this SI, with any luck.

Lord Adonis Portrait Lord Adonis
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Does the noble Lord think we are going too fast? We can certainly slow down.

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
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I cannot always keep up with the noble Lord, but I will try. I am very grateful, as I said in our last outing, for his interest in DCMS matters, which is fairly new.

I shall start in a fairly random order with answers to some quick questions before we get on to some of the points that the noble Lord, Lord Foster, made. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, asked whether non-ECTT EU countries would be required, therefore, to be licensed in this country. The answer is yes: we have identified 50 to 60 channels which may need a licence from Ofcom in order to continue to be received in the UK. These are mainly specialist minority channels, religious channels and adult services.

Lord Pannick Portrait Lord Pannick
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May I ask a question in relation to that? Would it not be more sensible, given that these broadcasters have been broadcasting into this country already and have been licensed in an EU member state, to grant them a licence automatically, rather than their having to apply? Then, of course, Ofcom would regulate them thereafter. If there is a problem, Ofcom may impose conditions or sanctions on them.

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
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If I am allowed to continue, those services that now need to apply for a licence so that they can continue to be available to UK audiences will have a grace period of six months, so they will continue to broadcast into this country. They will have six months to apply for a licence. It is necessary for them to apply for a licence because they should still be regulated by Ofcom in this country; otherwise we cannot control what they produce because we will not have recourse to the EU dispute resolution services. Of course, the six months is not a difficult problem for them because they start on the same basis—today, they are regulated by the AVMSD. We will start on an equal footing for Ofcom to begin to regulate them after the grace period of six months.

Lord Pannick Portrait Lord Pannick
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I am grateful to the Minister, but that does not address my point. Why should these broadcasters, who are already broadcasting into this country with, presumably, no difficulty at all, have to go through the administratively burdensome task of applying for a licence after six months? Why should Ofcom have to consider the details of their case and grant them a licence? Would it not be more sensible to say, “Let us continue the status quo, let us deem them to have a licence and, thereafter, Ofcom can regulate them”? Why a new licence? That is my question.

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
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Effectively, that is what is happening after six months. They are being allowed to continue for six months, after which they will have to have a licence. The reason Ofcom is licensing them is so that, in the future, we can make sure that the content they produce is in accordance with the licensing conditions, which we would not be able to do if we were relying only on the AVMSD.

The noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, asked about the Ofcom response and whether there was anything positive or negative. First, there was not a response per se, so it was not asked that question. It was, of course, consulted and the basis of this SI—here I have to disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Pannick—is not trying to create new policy, because all it is trying to allow is for television channels that would otherwise not be regulated to be regulated, because the method by which Ofcom regulates channels is using the AVMSD, and that will not apply any more. Where the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, is correct is that he gets to the crux of the problem, which is that leaving the EU is the issue that may or may not create a problem for broadcasters, not the actual details of this SI.

The noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, asked what advice I would give broadcasters. My advice to them would be to read the technical notice that we published in September: it precisely answers the question of what they should do and gives such things as the order of priority for being recognised in EU countries, whether it is establishment criteria or technical criteria such as satellite uplink. That is explained there and it makes the point, which I shall come to later, that ECTT may not be the answer in every case and that they should take advice and will possibly be required to have a licence. I shall come to that in a minute. I was foolish to think this would be quick.

The noble Lord, Lord Foster, mentioned video on demand. It is true that one of the differences is that the ECTT does not cover video on demand because, as noble Lords mentioned, it is a relatively old convention. I have to echo my friend in the other place: we are aware of the need to consider a long-term approach to regulating those video on-demand services that are available in the UK, but we cannot do it in this statutory instrument. It would be new policy, to take the point of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, if we started regulating video on demand. There are some video on-demand channels today, for example, that come from America and are unregulated. We accept that it is a problem and we will have to deal with it in the future, but not through this SI.

The noble Lord, Lord Foster, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh talked about support for the sector: I think they were talking about the creative industries in general rather than just broadcasting. There is no change in the direct impact on such things as creative sector tax relief, which will still apply because they are established in UK legislation and the cost is entirely borne by the UK Exchequer. We have provided reassurance that the Government will underwrite the payments of awards for programmes such as Creative Europe, and have entered into a number of bilateral film and television co-production agreements with other countries, including Canada, Australia and China. I think my noble friend was talking about co-production in particular. We are also party to the Council of Europe’s Convention on Cinematographic Co-production, which will continue to operate after exit. There is a new version of that convention which we are intending to sign.

Lastly, and very importantly, this SI means that, by implementing the ECTT, UK content will continue to qualify as European works. The EU Commission has confirmed that will be true, even if we leave with no deal.

18:30
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Portrait Baroness McIntosh of Pickering
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Presumably this is potentially one of the measures in the £39 billion package that we will agree if we have a deal on leaving, because that particular line of the European budget, to which we will have been subscribed in this seven-year period, relates to co-productions. It was very specific, and has brought benefits to this country. I do not expect my noble friend to have the answer at his fingertips, but I would be grateful if he could write to me.

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
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I thank my noble friend. I do not have it at my fingertips—mainly because this is a no-deal SI, and that is the basis on which I have prepared—but I will write to my noble friend with that answer.

The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, mentioned in a rather pessimistic way that this was the end of the jewel in the crown of broadcasting. I was not sure whether he was talking about broadcasting or the creative industries. I have mentioned that we will continue to support the creative industries. I agree that they are a jewel in the crown. We are, of course, aware of some reports in the media about broadcasters relocating their licence to other countries. But the reports also suggest that companies are relocating only a minority of their workforce, in order to comply with the licensing requirements. There are no signs of a mass exodus from the UK. It is too early to tell, but the technical notice spells out clearly that it is not always necessary to transfer even the head office or the editorial elements of a company to qualify for an EU licence under the AVMSD. Most broadcaster satellite uplinks are in France or Luxembourg, so, if you can use technical methods such as the satellite uplink, technically you can get a licence in one of those two countries because that would bring you under the jurisdiction of the AVMSD.

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Portrait Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)
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My Lords, on the question that the Minister has just addressed, have the Government made any assessment of the likely impact on the creative industries, a sector whose income they broadly welcome on a regular basis?

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
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This SI does not relate specifically to the creative industries; it is more to do with the broadcasting industry. There is a link between the broadcasting industry and the creative industries, but this deals with things such as production, which have historically tended to follow broadcasting. We have not made that assessment yet, because it is too early to tell, but clearly there is the possible danger that, if all broadcasters move their editorial and head offices to an EU country, production might go with them. Obviously, that would depend on where they go. It is too early to tell on that specific point, but the tax credits and other things I talked about will specifically help the creative industry, rather than broadcasters.

Lord Liddle Portrait Lord Liddle
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I am grateful to the Minister for answering the points I raised, but I am concerned about two things. First, I am a bit disturbed to hear that the Government are reading about what is happening in the newspapers, rather than being in constant consultation with this important sector of the industry. Secondly, if there were good will, the European convention might be an adequate substitute for European regulation; but in this situation we are talking about no deal, where there will be no good will.

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
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We are not—as noble Lords might have realised—reading about this only in the papers, although we do read them. We have had extensive consultation—not perhaps the public consultation where all pros and cons are publicised, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, would prefer. But noble Lords should be under no illusions: we have had extensive consultation on this situation and this specific SI, not only with Ofcom, which has been instrumental in drafting the SI to address the problems of regulation of television services—how they should be construed and defined—but with the sector. We have organised round tables at ministerial and official level. We have included AETN, AMC Networks, BBC Studios, Channel 4, Discovery Channel, Disney, ITV, NBCUniversal, Nordic Entertainment Group, Sky, Sony, WarnerMedia, Viacom and Viasat. We have met these and further broadcasters on a bilateral basis, because a lot of these discussions are commercially sensitive, depending on what they are going to do with their establishments to meet the problems of Brexit. I reiterate that this is an issue about Brexit, not about this SI, which is about the regulation—making sure that a regulatory system exists if we have no deal.

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Portrait Lord Griffiths of Burry Port
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I say simply that to have mentioned in the memorandum that this impressive list of people had been consulted in various ways might have allowed us to finish in record time, as the hope for that had been expressed.

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
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I take that point, although I would not bet on it myself. On that point, I emphasise that the ministerial round tables took place not just once but regularly between August 2016 and March 2017, led by the Secretary of State, and in March and July in 2018, led by the Minister. But I take the point about explaining that. The difference between this and the SI we talked about the other day is the commercial sensitivity of the decisions that have to be made in moving head offices, the effect on the workforce, and so on.

I will address the general issue of whether we are being complacent about relying on the ECTT. We acknowledge that it might be possible that some services will require two licences—one for the purposes of the AVMSD, and one for Ofcom—because this is the case for services which are available in both ECTT and non-ECTT countries. In the way that these services are received—by satellite—it is difficult to exclude some countries from the distribution. There are about 500 Europe-facing services out of the 1,200 that Ofcom currently licenses. To date, we are aware of about 130 licences moving. It is fair to say that broadcasters are concerned about the risk of dual regulation, and are reluctant to rely on the ECTT—it is considered an untested convention, as EU law has been in place for so long. Nevertheless, I am sure noble Lords would agree that we should not ignore conventions and international agreements that we have signed up to, nor should the other countries which have signed them.

Lord Foster of Bath Portrait Lord Foster of Bath
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

If we follow the Minister’s logic, he said earlier that there are about 50 or 60 channels that are currently not EEA members but which are based there, and which will need a licence. They will get a six-month period, a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. In view of what the Minister is saying, is it not quite likely that the number of channels that are in EEA EU countries will themselves decide to get an Ofcom licence? What assessment has he made of the number that may well choose to do that, and in considering that, is he aware that the latest information I have received is that only one company is considering basing all of its planning on the ECTT? Following from that, presumably there will potentially be a large number of people wanting licences from Ofcom, so can he also tell us how long it will take Ofcom to deal with each licence and whether it will be able to get through the requisite number in the six-month period?

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
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I do not agree with that premise. We have said that we will apply the ECTT, and in fact, this SI brings it into law.

Lord Foster of Bath Portrait Lord Foster of Bath
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That was not the point I was making. The point is that I understand that it is quite likely that a number of companies that are providing services to the UK, which could rely on the ECTT to not require a licence, will, none the less, make the decision that it is in the best interests of their protection to seek such a licence from Ofcom. Presumably, they will be required to do it within the same six-month period, so there is a potential problem with the number of licences that Ofcom can handle.

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
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I am still not clear why, given that we have explained that we will accept ECTT countries, they think they should have to take the precautionary approach of getting a licence as well.

Lord Foster of Bath Portrait Lord Foster of Bath
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I will give a specific example: it could be in relation to the differences that exist in the advertising regime, to pick up the point I raised earlier in my initial contribution about any changes that we might make. Given that there is not a formal legal redress system under the ECTT, they may feel it better to have a licence here and simply stick to the rules that we impose.

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Of course, that is a possibility that was not available to them under the AVMSD, and it may be of benefit to them. It is impossible to say. I agree that they may do that. I think it is unlikely, but the noble Lord is absolutely right that it is possible.

Very few services would be able to rely solely on the ECTT. First, the main broadcasters already have a physical presence in the EU, which brings them into EU jurisdiction. As I said, it is also extremely difficult to limit services to being available in purely ECTT countries because of the way that satellite transmission works. One of the problems with the AVMSD is that it does not set down any hard and fast rules about which services fall to be regulated; it talks about services receivable on standard consumer equipment, which is a benefit that the new Ofcom definition will address.

To date, we are not aware of any companies currently licensed in the UK which intend to rely on the ECTT. The smaller companies based in the UK which provide an EU-facing service only would be able to access the AVMSD market under the technical criteria, based on their satellite uplink. Therefore, I do not think we are being complacent about relying purely on the ECTT. The evidence for that is the fact that in the technical notice, we specifically said:

“If the service is available in the EU and only available in one or more of the 20 ECTT countries noted above, freedom of reception should be permitted in accordance with ECTT. However, you should seek local legal advice to check how national law deals with ECTT obligations to permit freedom of reception of the service and what action (if any) needs to be taken … You should be aware that you may need to have two licences”.


We have been clear on that.

Finally, I confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Foster, our commitment to regulate video on-demand services. Just to reiterate, a letter that my honourable friend the Digital Minister wrote to Kevin Brennan in the other place says that the Government are aware of the need to consider a long-term approach to regulating video on-demand services in the UK but that such changes cannot be introduced under the draft regulations.

I hope that I have covered most of the points that noble Lords raised. I am grateful for them.

Motion agreed.

Employment Rights (Amendment) (EU Exit) (No. 2) Regulations 2018

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Motion to Approve
18:46
Moved by
Lord Henley Portrait Lord Henley
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That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 31 October 2018 be approved.

Lord Henley Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Henley) (Con)
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My Lords, I hope I shall speak also to the other three sets of employment rights regulations before the House on the Order Paper. These SIs are part of a package of measures that the Government have promised to introduce to make sure we are prepared in the event that we leave the EU without a deal. It is important to remember throughout this debate that these changes will not be needed if there is a deal. The SIs in front of us make amendments to EU-derived employment law in both Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

As noble Lords know, new directives agreed in the EU are transposed into UK law. The act of the UK leaving the EU therefore does not remove these rights, as they are already in UK law. In passing the European Union (Withdrawal) Act, Parliament gave the Government the ability to ensure that necessary changes can be made to keep the statute book in proper working order. These statutory instruments make only minor changes to language to ensure that existing regulations reflect that the UK would no longer be a member of the EU. These changes are necessary to ensure that the statute book is accurate and clear. It is important that businesses, employees and citizens have clarity on their rights and responsibilities.

We are not making any changes to employment rights or employment policy through these regulations. The Prime Minister, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, and many other colleagues have been clear that there will be no rollback of workers’ rights when we leave the EU. I wish to highlight that these statutory instruments would make some changes to the regulations for European works councils. This would be an unavoidable impact of the UK leaving the EU without a deal. I can explain these changes in more detail later.

Looking to the future, the political declaration on our future relationship with the EU states that we will build on the withdrawal agreement commitment not to reduce our shared standards—a commitment not to regress from existing EU legislation. I will now go into more detail on the amendments made by the statutory instruments. The Employment Rights (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations and the Northern Ireland equivalent regulations repeal four powers that the Government can use to make secondary legislation. These powers relate to parental leave, part-time work, fixed-term work and information and consulting rights. The powers that are repealed relate only to obligations that the Government would be under from EU directives. As the Government would not be under these obligations if the UK left without a deal, these powers would be redundant. We would not be able to use them even if they remained. For clarity and legal certainty, we are seeking to remove these powers. Removing them in no way changes the rights that workers enjoy, nor the Government’s ability to protect workers in the UK in future.

The Transnational Information and Consultation of Employees Regulations 1999 are also amended to reflect the UK’s departure from the EU. Withdrawing from the EU will mean that the UK is no longer included in the EU rules on European works councils, which is why changes are required to the legislative framework set out in those TICE regulations. Provisions relating to existing EWCs—which can continue to operate in a no-deal scenario—are maintained. These include the protections for workers and their representatives on EWCs.

I move on to the next pair of regulations—the Employment Rights (Amendment) (EU Exit) (No.2) Regulations and their Northern Ireland equivalent. These are listed first on the Order Paper, despite their numbering. The amendments made through these regulations amend the text of existing Acts to reflect the UK’s departure from the EU. None of these changes affects the rights workers enjoy or changes employment policy.

The changes that may elicit the greatest interest across the House are those made to Section 38 of the Employment Relations Act 1999 and its equivalent in Northern Ireland. These relate to TUPE protections. The SIs amend the wording of the existing legislation to maintain the current scope of a power currently derived from EU directive obligations. This power has been relied on to make secondary legislation to cover situations where workers are not covered by TUPE regulations. The revised clause still retains the breadth of the existing powers for the Government to amend TUPE regulations to protect the rights of workers. The changes also protect the regulations that have previously been made under this power. These amendments do not change the rights to which workers are entitled.

There is one further point I wish to bring to the House’s attention. Of course, I hope that these regulations will not need to come into effect. I hope agreement can be reached with the EU and these regulations can be revoked. However, in the event that there is no agreement—no deal—it is vital that these regulations are enacted. Failure to pass these largely technical regulations would mean uncertainty over both workers’ rights and employers’ obligations. This could lead to disruption for businesses and citizens, and an increased risk of litigation. This is in no one’s interest. It would be unacceptable not to provide this clarity to businesses and I hope noble Lords will accept that the Government are delivering on our workers’ rights commitment and that these SIs can therefore be approved. I commend them to the House and beg to move.

Lord Monks Portrait Lord Monks (Lab)
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My Lords, it is pretty obvious that these regulations were drafted—as was necessary—before the conclusion of the current talks that the Prime Minister very belatedly initiated with the TUC and others about employment rights post Brexit. I understand that talks with the Business Secretary are still going on. I hope that at the back of the Minister’s mind is the thought that these regulations might well be altered in the light of any progress made in these talks. In effect, the TUC seeks a binding guarantee that existing employment rights will not just be maintained but will not fall below any levels of protection developed in the rest of the European Union and its single market.

There is a lot going on in the European Union at the moment on precarious employment, the gig economy, self-employment and protections for migrant workers. The key point in these negotiations with the Business Secretary is whether there can be any chance of a meeting of minds in these areas. So far, the Prime Minister has said to the union negotiators, “Trust me to make sure we will do the right thing”. “Trust me” is not quite good enough, given the transitory nature of being Prime Minister or party leader in this country. Binding guarantees are rather better than good intentions in this area.

The backcloth to these regulations has been drawn to my attention by the TUC. It has circulated a brief to Members of this House, which I hope noble Lords have had a chance to read. The first point is a procedural one about consultation. I echo previous debates in the House today by asking: who has been consulted on the regulations?

I turn first to the regulation dealing with the European works councils. It is worth reminding Members of this House that there are 850 or so EWCs and UK workers are represented on 500 of them. About 10 million European workers in total are covered by European works councils. Although their performance varies, as one would expect, on the whole they have been very successful in holding companies to account on their future plans and strategies. This is an important dimension in a world where pressures from financial markets on companies not to consult, inform or discuss their plans are very powerful.

We welcome the Government’s commitment to maintaining British participation in existing EWCs, but this commitment does not extend—at least as yet—to including new ones or to absorbing into UK law any changes in EWC arrangements that come into force over the next period. No new EWCs will be required to be set up under UK law after Brexit. We are worried that—at least in some cases—UK workers might lose their seats on the European works councils and therefore put British jobs at much greater risk than those of our neighbours across the channel and the North Sea. In other cases, I think there would be voluntary agreement. There are specific measures on the rights of UK worker representatives, such as paid time off to attend meetings. I note that these will be maintained after Brexit in relation to EWCs, but not necessarily to new EWCs that have a British component.

If there is no deal, most of these regulations are designed to come into force on Brexit day. What is the timetable should a withdrawal agreement be concluded? In our view, they should not come into force during a transition or implementation—or indeed a backstop—period.

I turn to the 2018 family of regulations. These are centred primarily on TUPE—the transfer of undertakings legislation—which has been valuable in handling transfers of staff due to privatisations in particular. They came in during the 1980s, under the Conservative Government at that time. The TUC is concerned that the regulations in this area lack a clear definition of what “TUPE-like protection” actually means. This is the phrase that has been adopted. I have not come across this kind of legal term before. “TUPE-like” seems to lack precision, as least to my layman eyes. Unless someone can explain the contrary to me, I think a clearer definition is very much needed.

The regulations do not extend TUPE-like protection and provisions to employee representatives, only to employees. Under the TUPE regulations, employee representatives have certain rights to information and consultation, and they should be maintained in whatever the future holds for us in this area.

Next, can we have an assurance that the regulations will not be brought into effect in any transitional or backstop period—that we would stick with the status quo? The powers under Section 13 of the withdrawal Act would hinder the UK’s ability to keep up with changes in EU law during any transition or backstop period and in the event of no deal. We want to avoid workers in the UK during such a period not having the same rights and protections as workers in other European countries. Protection during a transitional or backstop period is very important.

19:00
Baroness Burt of Solihull Portrait Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)
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I thank the Minister for his explanation. These four statutory instruments have been somewhat of a revelation to me. I was not aware that Northern Ireland has a different system of rules, although it comes under the same European legislation as the rest of the United Kingdom. I hope that the Minister and other colleagues will forgive me if some of the questions I am about to ask seem a little naive: I do not have the same level of expert advice, and hope that the Government and the Official Opposition will bear with me. I also did not get the TUC paper referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Monks.

Two of the statutory instruments obviously relate to Northern Ireland, and I was surprised to discover that legislation which presumably covers the same European Union rules differs. Why, under the same general legislative EU framework, does Northern Ireland go its own way, to a degree? In what way do the Northern Ireland regulations differ?

The regulations for mainland UK and Northern Ireland cover paternity and adoption pay, fair employment tribunals, industrial tribunals, shared parenting, working time, posted workers, small businesses and so on. I saw no reference to TUPE regulations in the Northern Ireland statutory instruments. I am sure that that is my omission, but do those elements operate differently? Surely TUPE exists in Northern Ireland as it does in the rest of the United Kingdom.

I also note that the statutory instruments amend primary as well as secondary legislation, so presumably the instruments cover areas where the primary legislation is amendable by secondary legislation. Can the Minister confirm that that is correct?

I have another question on the instruments relating to England, Wales and Scotland. Paragraph 12 of the main regulation relates to statutory paternity pay where a person has worked in the EEA. Can the Minister confirm that statutory paternity pay will not be affected by our exit from the European Union for fathers working in the rest of Europe?

Finally, I get twitchy when I read examples such as in part 1 of Schedule 1, paragraph 2, which states:

“In section 79(2) (entitlement to parental leave—supplemental) omit subsection (3)”


of the Employment Rights Act 1996. There are several such examples throughout the SIs. Can the Minister assure us that no existing rights are being omitted or weakened in any of the statutory instruments we are considering this afternoon?

In discussing the withdrawal Act—it seems a long time ago now—we sought assurances from the Government that employment rights would not be weakened post Brexit. Our fears were echoed by the noble Lord, Lord Monks. We do not know what will happen; indeed, one needs a crystal ball to predict what will happen next week, let alone after any possible Brexit. Will the Minister assure the House, as much as he can, that employment rights will not be diminished?

In conclusion, I hope that none of these instruments will ever need to apply, unless we commit the wilful act of self-destruction of leaving the European Union without a deal. The Minister alluded to that. Is he still feeling optimistic?

Lord Balfe Portrait Lord Balfe (Con)
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My Lords, I draw attention to my various interests in the register to do with trade unions. I am very pleased to follow the noble Lord, Lord Monks, a distinguished former general-secretary of both the TUC and the European TUC. Many of us in this House forget that the European TUC is a very powerful body that represents workers from all over Europe and has had a decisive impact on much legislation that has covered workers.

I have also been extremely pleased recently to see that the Government, on the road to Damascus, are now again talking to the unions. It must be two and a half years since union leaders last met a Prime Minister. When I was working as trade union adviser to David Cameron, one of my jobs was to ensure that that scenario never existed. I hope that the present Prime Minister will realise that a regular dialogue with the trade union movement is for the good of Britain, because it enables trade union leaders, who have a very good bird’s eye view of what is going on in Britain, to contribute to the national wealth.

We have spent most of today talking about things which we really hope will never matter—in other words, that we will not leave the EU without a deal and that therefore none of what we have dealt with today will come into force. I noticed that both of the main SIs state that they can be,

“deferred, revoked or amended”.

My first question is whether consideration has been given as to which one of those three is likely to come into force. I would like them never brought into action and revoked straightaway, but the word that worries me the most is “amended”. In other words, they would no longer be SIs if we leave without a deal but would be amended in some way to accommodate a deal.

My next point is on the enshrinement in law of workers’ rights in the side agreement that we had with the EU. When I met Gavin Barwell, the Prime Minister’s chief of staff, I specifically asked: “How strong is this agreement and how enforceable is it?”. He confirmed to me that it was not enforceable. When legislation comes to this House to deal with post Brexit when there is a deal on the table, a number of Members will be looking to write those agreements on workers’ rights into Bills, to make them fully enforceable.

I want to make one or two points on the documents in front of us. I will try not to copy what the noble Lord, Lord Monks, has said. However, there is concern about workers’ councils. They play a valuable role and we will be looking to the British industry part of workers’ councils to maintain a commitment to them—in other words, not to use the absence of Britain from the EU as a way of weakening the ability of workers from the British side of workers’ councils to continue to participate in them. We will be looking for the Transnational Information and Consultation of Employees Regulations to be kept fully in force.

What will happen if an external request is made for a new European workers’ council from a European country? I notice that companies that operate in Switzerland often include Switzerland within their scope and include Swiss worker representatives as EWC members. Switzerland is not in the EEA—that is one reason why I use this example—and the provisions do not appear to make provision for workers’ councils continuing to include the UK within their scope on a voluntary basis. I would like to know what the Minister sees as the future in that area.

On the updating rights, the Minister can enact legislation to keep UK law in line with EU law. I would like to think that we will do our best to do that. Has he had any thoughts on that?

I turn briefly to the other regulations. I agree completely with the noble Lord, Lord Monks, that we need a much clearer definition of what “TUPE-like” means. This looks like something, but is not quite the same. I would like to see an agreement that TUPE-like means that TUPE, as practised at the moment, will be the standard to which Ministers will try to hold any future statutory instrument or legislative developments.

I thank the Minister for bringing this to the House tonight. I look forward to his responses and promise him that when labour relations matters come up, I will continue to represent the 30% of paid-up trade union members who vote for the Conservative Party.

Baroness Crawley Portrait Baroness Crawley (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for setting out these draft regulations. Like other noble Lords, I am concerned about any potential loss of updating rights.

Does the Minister agree that, both on the European works councils and on TUPE, these regulations remove powers currently enshrined in primary legislation, under which Ministers can enact legislation to keep UK law in line with EU law? Will removing those powers mean that it will be harder to keep workers’ rights up to the same standard as EU workers’ rights, as EU law develops?

May I underline the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, and my noble friend Lord Monks on the “TUPE-like” reference? TUPE has been a boon, particularly for women workers moving between jobs, especially when we see how women’s pensions are often a lot less than men’s pensions.

19:15
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Portrait Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
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My Lords, it has been a very helpful and useful debate and we look forward to hearing the Minister’s response. I have a number of questions that pick up on points already made by other noble Lords.

I will not delay the House too long, but I cannot let pass my normal question to the Minister, when dealing with SIs, about commencement dates. His department has a very bad record on bringing out regulations that commence on the common commencement dates. He promises to do better, but I have yet to see it. Unfortunately, these are not ones that I can tease him with because they are supposed to come out only if required and on exit day.

However, that is not quite the case here, is it? If we look at the Employment Rights (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 and the parallel regulations for Northern Ireland—which I think are numbers three and four as grouped on the Order Paper—both of them say that the regulations,

“come into force on exit day, subject to paragraph (2)”.

Paragraph (2) provides that certain elements of the regulations,

“come into force the day after the day on which these Regulations are made”.

When the Minister introduced the regulations, he said that we did not have to worry about them, that there was nothing in them that would need to take place, and that he was optimistic that there would not be a need for them to come into force. However, that is not true, as some parts of these regulations will come into force. In that context, could he reinforce what he said, which is that there is no diminution in existing rights as a result of the parts of these regulations that will come into force before exit day—and are, therefore, not strictly EU exit regulations in that sense, although we will pass over that, if the issue is indeed trivial, as I suspect it is, given that they seem to be corrections to earlier regulations and primary legislation that may not have kept pace with nomenclature in the EU. If that is not the case, the Minister owes it to the House to make a statement about exactly what is happening under these regulations.

More generally, several speakers—my noble friends Lord Monks and Lady Crawley and the noble Lord, Lord Balfe—have raised points about what is meant by the fact that, on the one hand, the Government are withdrawing powers which, as my noble friend Lady Crawley said, are currently in force and could be implemented to maintain workers’ rights and the rights of employee representatives but, on the other, the Government intend, although there is no evidence for this apart from the assertions of both the Prime Minister and the Minister, that there should be no diminution. Where is the legislation that is going to bring forward that levelling up to the existing situation? If the Minister cannot give us an answer, will he please write to us about what the Government’s intentions are? Clearly, the regulations amend Section 13 of the Work and Families Act. That amendment reduces, in crude terms, the rights of workers currently. What is the timescale for that being rectified?

On the question of what TUPE means and the definition of “TUPE-like”, again the regulations remove powers that exist. Where is the regulation that is going to bring forward the parallel arrangements to make sure that that continues in UK law? The rights of employee representatives, which were mentioned in particular by the noble Lord, Lord Monks, are similarly affected.

These may not seem to be very serious comments, but I think that people across the country will be concerned that their rights are being eroded. At the same time, politicians are saying that they should not worry about it, because the Government have in mind to make sure that there is no diminution. So it is not just a question of the diminution but of making sure that, when changes are made that would have happened had we stayed in the EU, those are also replicated in UK law. I would be grateful to hear the Minister’s comments on those points.

Lord Henley Portrait Lord Henley
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their comments. The noble Lord, Lord Monks, complained that these regulations had possibly been drafted before the talks were concluded. I have to say that it would be rather difficult to draft them after the talks were concluded because I suspect that they might be somewhat late. I think that to start drafting these amendment regulations at 10 minutes to midnight would not be the right way to go about it and I would be quite rightly criticised.

What I can say, and I think that the noble Lord will be pleased about this, is that the Employment Rights (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations were published in draft form in December 2017. That allowed for extensive consultation and allowed us to comply with the statutory obligation to consult the relevant bodies on a change made to the conduct of employment agencies and employment business regulations. We received, I think, two responses, one from the National Association of Schoolmasters Union of Women Teachers and the other from the Recruitment & Employment Confederation. I need not go into detail, but neither raised concerns about the drafting of the amendment: rather, they commented more on EU exit in general. We also, as I said, shared these regulations in draft with the TUC and with the CBI—so there was considerable consultation on them.

I shall repeat the commitment that has been made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, by my own Secretary of State and by Ministers throughout the Government. Now as a Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State I shall repeat it, although it has been made by people who are far important than me. We are committed not to rolling back on workers’ rights, and by laying these SIs we are upholding that commitment. We already go beyond the EU minimum in many areas of employment law; that is well known. I can say to the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, that we have no intention of making any changes to statutory maternity pay. People will not be affected whether we are in the EEA or not. That is true for all the concerns that have been put forward.

Looking to the future, as my noble friend Lord Balfe invited us to do, I would remind the House of what we discussed in a Statement debate—and there will be other chances to discuss it. Our Good Work Plan sets out our vision for the future of the labour market and our ambitious plans for implementing the recommendations that arose from the Taylor review. That important package will ensure that workers have access to the rights and protections that they deserve in a changing labour market, with the changing technology that we face. In addition, it will create a level playing field for employers, thereby ensuring that good employers are not undercut by the small minority who seek to circumvent the law. That is worth stating at the Dispatch Box as I move these instruments.

Perhaps I may deal with one or two specific concerns, in particular the drafting points made by the noble Lord, Lord Monks, and echoed by others. He asked whether the new phrase “TUPE-like powers” provide the same scope for power. The phrase “TUPE-like provisions” is needed to maintain the current scope of the powers, and the new wording ensures that the Government will continue to have the power to enhance workers’ rights as we do now. We will continue to do that and I repeat that commitment once again. The noble Lord also asked whether these statutory instruments would need to be amended following the talks that he referred to. I can make it quite clear again that these SIs are for no deal. We hope that once we have a deal they will be unnecessary.

The noble Lord also put a question about European works councils. He asked how the Government could claim to be preparing for Brexit when they did not have plans for workers to have proper representation in the absence of European works councils. We are preparing for a no-deal exit, as any responsible Government would do. UK employees will still be able to be represented on works councils—but, again, that will be a matter for the employer and employee representatives. Employees and their representatives on European works councils will retain their existing protections in all circumstances.

The noble Baroness, Lady Burt, asked about the differences as regards Northern Ireland. This is a devolved matter in Northern Ireland in a way that I do not think it is in Scotland. The TUPE-equivalent amendment in Northern Ireland is to the Employment Relations (Northern Ireland) Order 1999. However, in the continued absence of a Northern Ireland Executive, it is for the UK Government to take any necessary EU exit legislation for Northern Ireland through Westminster. However, I can give an assurance that the Northern Ireland departments have been consulted in the preparation of these statutory instruments.

The noble Lord, Lord Monks, also asked whether they would apply during any implementation period. Again I can say that they will be needed only in the case of no deal. I have dealt with the question of statutory maternity pay, which will remain the same. My noble friend Lord Balfe asked about the ability to repeal the legislation. If the SIs are no longer required on exit day we expect, as I think he quoted, to defer, revoke or amend them through further legislation in time for the end of the implementation period. Which route we take will be a matter for us to decide at the time—but, regardless of what we decide, we will uphold our commitment not to roll back on workers’ rights.

With that, I think that all I need to do is to repeat the assurance to the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, and others that these amendments do not narrow TUPE powers: rather, they ensure that the Government will continue to have the power to enhance workers’ rights, as we do now. One last question was put to me about European works councils by my noble friend Lord Balfe. He asked whether we could apply the EU directive on EWCs like Switzerland. I repeat that these SIs are only for if there is no deal. Switzerland is covered by the directive under the deal that it has with the EU, so that would be a matter for future negotiations.

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Portrait Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I wonder whether the noble Lord could answer my question about the commencement date and the discontinuity between the fact that these are supposed to be brought in only on exit day although two of them refer to regulations that will come into force on the day they are passed—which presumably will be today. If the noble Lord does not have any inspiration at this moment, perhaps he could write to me.

Lord Henley Portrait Lord Henley
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I had completely and utterly forgotten the noble Lord’s obsession with commencement dates in the excitement of dealing with orders of this sort. It might be that inspiration comes to me, but it may not be the sort of inspiration that would satisfy the noble Lord. I am told that the standard practice for statutory instruments is that they have a coming into force date. If that does not answer the noble Lord’s question, I will write to him.

I think that I have dealt with all the points that were put to me.

Motion agreed.

Employment Rights (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) (EU Exit) (No. 2) Regulations 2018

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
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Motion to Approve
19:28
Moved by
Lord Henley Portrait Lord Henley
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 31 October 2018 be approved.

Motion agreed.

Employment Rights (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
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Motion to Approve
19:28
Moved by
Lord Henley Portrait Lord Henley
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 14 January be approved.

Motion agreed.

Employment Rights (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
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Motion to Approve
19:29
Moved by
Lord Henley Portrait Lord Henley
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 14 January be approved.

Motion agreed.

Fisheries (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
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Motion to Approve
19:29
Moved by
Lord Gardiner of Kimble Portrait Lord Gardiner of Kimble
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 4 December 2018 be approved.

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)
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My Lords, the instrument before your Lordships makes minor, technical amendments to primary and secondary domestic legislation in order to make domestic fisheries legislation operable, as part of having a working statute book after exiting the EU. There are no changes to policy made by this instrument; it makes the necessary corrections to ensure that our domestic fisheries law remains fully functional after we leave the EU.

Section 2.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum sets out the three pieces of primary legislation and 10 pieces of secondary legislation amended by this instrument. The amendments are laid out in detail in Annexe B of the Explanatory Memorandum and they fall into four main categories. There are, for instance, references to “an enforceable EU obligation” and “enforceable EU restrictions”. These are amended to “a retained EU obligation” or “retained EU restrictions” to ensure that these remain operable as part of retained EU law. For example, Section 30 of the Fisheries Act 1981 concerns the enforcement of EU rules relating to sea fishing. Amendments to Section 30 change references to,

“enforceable Community or EU obligations and restrictions”,

to,

“retained EU obligations and restrictions”,

to ensure continued operability of these provisions on exit.

There is then a further category: provisions that will be redundant or inoperable in UK law after EU exit. For example, Schedule 4(5) of the Merchant Shipping (Registration of Ships) Regulations 1993 refers to an “EC Number” in the list of details to be recorded in the register of British fishing vessels—this has been removed. Likewise, a reference to euros has been converted to pounds sterling in the Fish Labelling Regulations 2013.

The third category has references to “member state or third country” which are replaced with just “third country” because, in this context, member states will be categorised as third countries when we exit. For example, Article 3 of the Sea Fishing (Illegal, Unreported and Unregulated Fishing) Order 2009 defines “third country fishing vessel” as,

“a fishing vessel which is not a Community fishing vessel”.

This has been amended to a fishing vessel which is not,

“a United Kingdom fishing vessel”.

Fourthly, cross-references to EU regulations are amended to bring them into line with technical amendments made to directly applicable EU regulations by other SIs. For example, in the Fish Labelling Regulations 2013, the designation of the Secretary of State to draw up and publish the list of commercial designations of fish species has been deleted because this is now provided for in Council regulation (EC) 1379/2013, as amended by a forthcoming common fisheries policy SI. This is a consequential amendment arising from the amendments made by that SI to avoid duplication of the same provision in two different pieces of legislation. Without this instrument, these 13 key pieces of domestic legislation would no longer operate effectively as part of the statute book after exit, so we would be unable to regulate these areas of UK fisheries.

This SI has been developed and drafted in close co-operation with the devolved Administrations, reflecting the devolution settlements. The amendments made by this instrument mainly extend and apply to the United Kingdom, with some exceptions, so each of the devolved Administrations was heavily involved in developing the approach. In that regard, I refer your Lordships to paragraph 4 of the Explanatory Memorandum, which sets out the extent and application of each piece of legislation. As I said, this is about technicality and operability. I beg to move.

Lord Hope of Craighead Portrait Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)
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My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for the way he has introduced these regulations. I confess that I came here puzzled by the way Part 2—the amendments of primary legislation—sets out the respective amendments to, on the one hand, the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1967 and, on the other hand, the Fisheries Act 1981 and the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. You have only to look at Part 1 to see that, so far as the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1967 is concerned, the amendment is extremely sparse. We are provided with two adjectives—one adjective is changed for another—without indicating what the altered phrase is in its extended form. In the cases of the 1981 and 2009 Acts, the draftsman has provided us with the complete phrases. For example, Section 3(4)(b) of the Fisheries Act 1981 contains an extended phrase “enforceable Community restriction” and “enforceable EU obligations”. This is being substituted with “retained EU restrictions” and “retained EU obligations”. I found it very difficult, looking at the two lines of the 1967 Act, to know what it was really dealing with because all we have are the two adjectives.

I am grateful to the noble Lord for drawing our attention to Annexe B where the language is expanded—the noun is attached to the adjective—and which explains the situation very well. For those who are interested in parliamentary draftsmanship, it is very interesting to see how the 1967 Act amendment—drafted, no doubt, with the guidance of the Scottish Government’s draftsmen—is able to achieve so much with so few words, whereas the other two statutes have very extended amendments which require quite a lot of reading but are much more intelligible.

I offer these comments to thank the noble Lord for having explained it to me in his introduction, but also by a way of comment on two unusually differing methods of draftsmanship.

Baroness Parminter Portrait Baroness Parminter (LD)
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My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, for that point. Like him, I echo my thanks to the Minister and the team for the explanations in Annexe B, which were provided at the request of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. It has aided all of us to get a clearer understanding of exactly how these changes to the very discrete area of enforcement powers will accrue if we leave the European Union.

I make no substantive comment on the statutory instrument—it was to the satisfaction of the House’s committees. Last week, in the other place, Minister George Eustice made it clear that there will be just shy of 100 Defra statutory instruments. This statutory instrument deals with a very discrete area of enforcement powers; I know the Minister is well aware of this issue, but there is a much bigger statutory instrument which deals with the policy issues around the many changes to policy which will happen to fisheries should we leave the common fisheries policy. It struck me and other Members as a cart before the horse situation. This is a very discrete element and it would have been helpful to discuss the two statutory instruments together.

Given that there will be some good nature required on both sides of the House to deal with this large number of statutory instruments, it would, at this stage, be wise to inform the department that it would be helpful in future—if possible—for issues which have common policy areas to be debated together.

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Portrait Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation, and for his courtesy in meeting to discuss this issue beforehand. I also thank other noble and noble and learned Lords who have raised important points during this discussion.

I begin, once again, by raising the more general issue about the process that we are expected to undertake in scrutinising such a large number of SIs in such a short time. As the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, said, the Minister in the other place, George Eustice, confirmed that we have 98 Defra SIs to get through before Brexit day. I am sure the Minister will recognise the enormous challenge this creates to ensure proper scrutiny, given the sheer volume of legislation that faces us in the coming weeks. Of course, we would not be in this position if the Government had not insisted that a no-deal option remain on the table—an option that very few people across either House believe is sensible or workable. We continue to be concerned that by rushing through this legislation, mistakes will occur, and that in trying to deal with such a large volume of legislation, we will not be able to do justice to the scrutiny process.

I want to return to the issues we raised during scrutiny of a previous SI last week. While we welcome the establishment of the reading room to allow invited stakeholders to have pre-sight of SIs, in practice all it does is allow for a few extra days to analyse and digest them. There is little scope for any deficiencies to be addressed or to withdraw and re-lay any SIs that are identified as being flawed. Has any consideration been given to making this pre-scrutiny process more meaningful? Is it true that consideration is being given to a wash-up process before Brexit day to potentially address these deficiencies? Has any more consideration been given to the request from my noble friend Lady Young of Old Scone for parliamentarians to be given the same opportunity for earlier sight of the drafts? If not, we are being presented with a fait accompli, and can have very little influence over the wording before us.

On the subject of process, I absolutely agree with the point made by the noble Baroness. It seems very odd that we are not debating this SI with its sister SI, the Common Fisheries Policy (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, particularly as the Explanatory Memorandum says that they should be read in conjunction. On the same subject, the Minister will know that in its report of 20 December, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee criticised the lack of detail in the Explanatory Memorandum and asked for a more detailed one to be produced. We are pleased that the department took this criticism seriously, but he will know that this resulted in our receiving the revised version of the EM very late in the day. I hope that that process will not be repeated.

Turning to the detail of the SI, the noble Lord knows that there was some discussion in the other place about the amendments which change “enforceable Community or EU obligations” to “retained EU obligations and restrictions”. The Minister has now confirmed that the meaning of a “retained EU obligation” is as set out in Schedule 8 to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act. My question is slightly different. It is about losing the reference to the obligations being “enforceable”. Are there any implications to removing the power to enforce this SI? I want absolute clarity on that, because I do not feel that the Minister in the other place answered it satisfactorily. Can the Minister please confirm who will be responsible for enforcing the retained EU obligations in these circumstances, as the SI does not seem to spell this out? This is another example of where the EU would have had the ultimate power of action, including fines, through the European Commission. Given that this has not yet been transposed into UK law, will there be the same powers of enforcement that we currently enjoy under EU law?

I want to move on to the removal of references to Article 42 and the control regulation from the Sea Fishing (Enforcement) Regulations 2018. As I understand it, this means that an inshore fisheries and conservation officer can no longer enforce Article 42, which states that fishing vessels engaged in fisheries subject to a multiannual plan cannot move their catches to another vessel unless they have first been weighed. If this provision is removed, is there not a danger that the rules on weighing catches could be evaded and overfishing allowed to take hold? Can the Minister explain why this change was made and what is being done to manage the risk of overfishing?

I want to raise the question of access to the European Maritime and Fisheries Fund. The SI understandably deletes reference to the fund, but it is worth £30 million a year to our coastal communities. Can the Minister confirm whether these payments will therefore cease on Brexit day? Following the responses given by George Eustice on this issue, can he confirm that the size of the UK fund will match that provided by the EU? Can he confirm the date from which access to these new funds will be available? In other words, will there be an access payment gap between the end of one fund and the beginning of another?

Finally, can the Minister clarify the impact of the changes proposed to the fish labelling regulations, which he touched on? The Explanatory Memorandum now designates the Secretary of State to draw up and publish the list of commercial fish species accepted in the UK. I think I heard the Minister say that some of the arrangements for how this will work are in the forthcoming SI—which ideally would have been debated today, with this one. In the absence of that SI, can the Minister tell us by what date the Secretary of State will publish such a list? Will it be available on Brexit day? What happens in the interim if no statutory list of species is published? Is there a danger that endangered species could be fished, even for a short period? I look forward to the noble Lord’s response on these issues.

19:45
Lord Gardiner of Kimble Portrait Lord Gardiner of Kimble
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I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to the debate. I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, for raising one of the issues that Ministers and Opposition Front-Benchers did in penetrating some of the ways in which these matters are set out. There are always lessons to be drawn out, but the drafting is apparently consistent with statutory instrument practice and guidance, applicable to all departments. But I will say to the noble and learned Lord that I am very grateful for Annexe B, which I found illuminating and most helpful.

Lord Hope of Craighead Portrait Lord Hope of Craighead
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful for that remark. It is curious, though, if it is consistent with practice, that the practice is so different. That was my point. On the one hand, you have an extremely economical presentation, and, on the other, you have a very useful but much more elaborate presentation. They are quite different.

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Portrait Lord Gardiner of Kimble
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I take the noble and learned Lord’s important point seriously and, as one of the many things I learn from these debates, I will take it back. The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, also mentioned the scrutiny of the committee and Annexe B.

I say to all your Lordships, and particularly to the noble Baronesses, that I understand the remarks about the extent of the legislative programme. I am most grateful for the way in which we are all seeking to deal with this responsibly. It is of course absolutely essential that there is proper scrutiny. I assure noble Lords that we have been working with business managers to ensure that the pace and flow of the statutory instruments is consistent with Parliament’s capacity to scrutinise them. Indeed, Defra has drafted all the SIs in accordance with our standard practice. The drafting has been done with the full co-operation of the devolved Administrations and has been fully legally checked. Furthermore, because the SI makes amendments to primary legislation, it was necessary for the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel and the Office of the Advocate-General to check the drafting of those parts.

Clearly, as has been said—I may have alluded to it—the instrument was considered by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. No concerns about the regulations were raised. I value the ability to discuss, along with my officials, this or any other instrument with the noble Baronesses and any other Peers who are interested and wish to contact me before any debate. I very much hope that we will continue to do this. As I study the Explanatory Memorandum, I think it is important to highlight the contacts at the back: there is an official’s telephone number if any parliamentarian would like clarification.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, referred to the reading room. This is an online platform that was developed based on stakeholders’ feedback to allow them to check the technical aspects of near-final SIs before they are laid in Parliament. It was designed with this specific audience in mind. I am always available to discuss these matters with any of your Lordships who wish to do so.

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Portrait Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Before the Minister moves on from that point, I think he used the phrase, “pre-laid” or “nearly laid”—it was something along those lines. The stakeholders feel that there is not really time for them to say, “Look, you have got this wrong or those powers wrong” and for any redrafting to take place. It would be lovely if that were the case. We appreciate the concept of the reading room, but if it does not result in a proper listening exercise and the potential to make change, it is not achieving what it set out to do.

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Portrait Lord Gardiner of Kimble
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will certainly take that point back. Its whole purpose is to be constructive and helpful.

I also understand the noble Baroness’s points about the number of statutory instruments on fisheries that will be laid. I entirely understand the intellectual argument. Today’s instrument amends only domestic legislation. Defra has kept domestic primary and secondary legislation in this one SI and will use other SIs to amend directly applicable EU regulations. For instance, there will be one on wash-up—frankly, we could not have managed it—which amends EU regulations that have only just come into force; namely, those regulations emerging after the December Council. We will be laying that in late February.

The sister fisheries policy SI, as the noble Baroness described it, has been laid in draft. The SI and Explanatory Memorandum are available on legislation.gov.uk. We will have an opportunity to discuss that beforehand, but also in debate and future SIs.

The noble Baronesses are right. If we had had a perfect world, I am sure that all involved with fisheries could have had the opportunity for a debate on those SIs. As this one was ready, we felt—mindful of the numbers that are coming forward and as we were discussing technical and operable matters—that we could accomplish this today.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, referred to retained EU law: enforceable Community restrictions, EU restrictions and EU obligations. Some of this came up in the other place. My honourable friend the Minister of State is responding by letter, because it appears that this is a very technical matter which relates to the different ways that the Act can be read, depending on whether it extends to England, Wales and Scotland, or to Northern Ireland. I am assured that the statutory instrument is drafted correctly, but I will share a copy of this letter with all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate so that we are absolutely clear.

The responsibility for enforcement of fisheries in the UK will continue as it was before. This will be through the Marine Management Organisation for England and the equivalent bodies in the devolved Administrations. In England, marine enforcement officers will continue to enforce domestic fisheries legislation when the UK exits.

Much implementation and oversight will be the subject of new arrangements as proposed in the forthcoming Fisheries Bill—where we can discuss future arrangements but which is still in the other place—as well as the fisheries White Paper and the draft environment Bill, mindful of consistency with the devolution settlement. A lot of this will unfold in that discussion.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, mentioned Article 42. This SI removes reference to Article 42 of Council Regulation 1224/2009 in the Sea Fishing (Enforcement) Regulations. Article 42, which prohibits transhipment in port, as the noble Baroness described, is deleted by the forthcoming sister SI to avoid a duplication in domestic legislation. This is because the authorisation for transhipment can already be given by way of a licence under Section 4A of the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1967. Consequently, the reference to Article 42 in the present SI is no longer needed. I am sorry that that is technical, but that is what the lawyers advised me.

On the very important question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, about references to the European Maritime Fisheries Fund, the Government have confirmed that all EMFF projects approved before the closure date of the current programme in December 2020 will be fully funded under a Treasury guarantee. This applies across the United Kingdom. The Secretary of State announced on 10 December 2018 that after the closure of the EMFF there will be four new funding schemes to replace the EMFF across the UK. The new funding commitment will be set in the 2019 spending review, alongside decisions on all other domestic spending priorities, and will be comparable to the current programme. The devolved Administrations will lead on their own programmes.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, asked about the list of commercial designations of fish. My understanding is that the list is currently published on GOV.UK. To be clear, the list specifies how fish species should be labelled for consumer information and does not specify which species can or cannot be sold. The list can be updated when there is a business need or a request from the sector, and that practice will continue after we leave. Any revisions need to be agreed by the Secretary of State on the basis of expert advice with a sound scientific rationale. I hope that this will reassure the noble Baroness that this is not about the Klondike: it is based on a sound rationale, science, et cetera, as well as full consultation with the devolved Administrations.

I am most grateful to all noble Lords for helping me with this SI. We will return to matters of fish by way of statutory instruments and, at some point, the Fisheries Bill. On this occasion, I beg to move.

Motion agreed.

Veterinary Surgeons and Animal Welfare (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
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Motion to Approve
20:00
Moved by
Lord Gardiner of Kimble Portrait Lord Gardiner of Kimble
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That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 13 December 2018 be approved.

Relevant document: 13th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (Sub-Committee B).

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)
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My Lords, I will speak to both sets of regulations. I would from the outset like to place on record my appreciation of the work of veterinary surgeons. They undertake a wide range of tasks in our country and the profession is widely respected. With two members of my family in the profession, I am well aware of the challenges they face.

These statutory instruments aim to ensure that there will continue to be a functioning regulatory and legislative regime for the professional regulation of veterinary surgeons and farriers, and enforcement of legislation for protecting animal health and welfare for when the UK leaves the EU.

I turn first to the Veterinary Surgeons and Animal Welfare (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019. In the UK, the veterinary profession and its standards are regulated by the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons—the RCVS. Since 1966 the Veterinary Surgeons Act has provided a mechanism for veterinary surgeons who have qualified outside the UK to register to practise here. That mechanism, in so far as it applied to EEA and Swiss nationals, was subsequently amended to reflect the requirements of the recognition of professional qualifications directive after it was adopted in 2005.

Part 2 of this statutory instrument will ensure the operability and consistency of the system for registering EEA and Swiss qualified veterinary surgeons after we leave. Under the European system, EEA and Swiss nationals who hold degrees from veterinary schools recognised by the EU are entitled to have those degrees automatically recognised in any member state. When the UK leaves, EEA and Swiss qualified persons who wish to register to practise in the UK will still be able to do so; however, they will have to follow the same process as those who have qualified elsewhere. That process is currently set out in Section 6 of the Veterinary Surgeons Act, and requires that an applicant satisfy the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons that they have,

“the requisite knowledge and skill”,

to practise in the United Kingdom.

If the RCVS is satisfied that the degree the applicant holds meets this requirement and is equivalent to one from a UK veterinary school, there is no further assessment of their skill and knowledge. The Royal College estimates that a large majority of applicants from the EEA will meet this requirement. If the applicant does not hold such a degree, they must undertake and pass a professional examination administered by the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. This would help ensure consistency of approach to the regulation of veterinary standards in the future. These changes do not affect those already registered to practise veterinary surgery in the United Kingdom. Transitional arrangements also ensure that those who are in the process of registering with the RCVS on exit day are entitled to have their application considered under the current rules.

Part 3 of this statutory instrument makes a minor technical amendment to Section 29 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006. Section 29 currently provides inspectors in England and Wales with a power to enter premises to check compliance with the Welfare of Farmed Animals Regulations. Inspectors are appointed by local authorities, Welsh Ministers or the Secretary of State. This technical amendment ensures that that power of entry will continue to be available after exit day.

I turn now to the Farriers and Animal Health (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019. This statutory instrument will ensure that the system for recognising farriery qualifications continues to function effectively after the UK leaves. This statutory instrument also amends Section 64A of, and Schedule 3 to, the Animal Health Act 1981, as well as three exemption orders under the Veterinary Surgeons Act, to ensure the operability of these pieces of legislation after EU exit.

In Great Britain, since 1975, farriers have been regulated by the Farriers Registration Council under the Farriers (Registration) Act. Interestingly, farriery is not currently regulated in Northern Ireland. Under the European system, EEA and Swiss nationals who hold farriery qualifications, or who have certificates attesting to their experience, are entitled to have those qualifications or that experience recognised in any member state. Part 1 of this statutory instrument will seek to ensure consistency of professional standards by proposing to use the same system for recognising the qualifications of farriers from the EEA as that used for farriers from the rest of the world. This means that those farriers whose qualifications and training are not equivalent to the UK standards, but who have two or more years of professional experience as a farrier, will need to undertake a professional assessment. If they have less than two years of professional experience, they will need to undertake full professional training in the UK, followed by the professional assessment, before being registered to practise in the UK. This will help to ensure consistency across the profession and will help to protect the health and welfare of horses.

We have of course discussed these proposals with the Farriers Registration Council, which is content with them. I emphasise again that these amendments do not affect the rights of those already registered to practise farriery in the United Kingdom.

I come to the powers of entry under the Animal Health Act. Part 3 of this statutory instrument makes technical changes to the Animal Health Act 1981 to ensure its operability. The amendment to Section 64A ensures that, where local authority inspectors in Great Britain currently have a power of entry and check compliance with certain legislation, that power will remain available to them after exit day. The relevant legislation includes orders regarding cattle and equine identification, vaccination in the event of avian influenza or foot and mouth disease, and the monitoring of zoonotic disease.

A further operability amendment, to Schedule 3, removes an EU obligation which will no longer apply after the UK leaves the EU, as the relevant authority will already need to be satisfied that adequate measures are in place to prevent any risk of the spread of foot and mouth disease before it can decide not to slaughter susceptible animals. This is a technical change and I emphasise that we will of course continue to co-operate with our friends and colleagues in the EU on disease control in the future. Disease does not respect borders and boundaries, and we must continue to collaborate and work together.

Three exemption orders under the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966 all currently permit specific minor veterinary surgery procedures to be carried out in the UK by persons other than veterinary surgeons, provided that they have successfully undertaken an “approved course”. In the UK, before a UK course can be approved, the Secretary of State, rightly, must consult with the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. As a member of the EU we were required to recognise any training undertaken in an EEA country which would allow a person to carry out that procedure there. There is no EU minimum standard for such training, no requirement that the member state in question must consult their equivalent to the RCVS and, importantly, no guarantee that the course is of the same standard as those undertaken in the UK. In the future, it will be for the Secretary of State and in some circumstances DAERA—as the responsible authority in Northern Ireland—to decide whether any non-UK course meets the appropriate standard, to ensure that there is more rigour. This will help maintain high standards of animal health and welfare in the UK.

These statutory instruments aim to ensure that there will be a functioning regulatory and legislative regime for the professional regulation of veterinary surgeons and farriers, and enforcement of legislation that protects animal health and welfare when the UK leaves the EU.

Lord Trees Portrait Lord Trees (CB)
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My Lords, I am delighted to speak on the veterinary surgeons and animal welfare regulations and I strongly support them. We are all well aware that there is some division on whether Brexit is a good or bad thing, but I respectfully suggest that this consequence of Brexit, this SI, is a good thing. It will help to ensure high standards of animal health and welfare and, most importantly, protect the public, which is the purpose of professional regulation.

Up to now, the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons has had the power to ensure that all those whom it admits to its register to become members of the Royal College, which is the legal requirement to practise in the UK, meet certain quality assurance standards. In particular, they have to have been trained in a professionally accredited institution. This applies to all graduates of every vet school in the world, including the UK, except those from EU member states. By virtue of EU law, all graduates of any institution recognised by the member state Government have to be automatically granted admission to the register of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, whether or not that institution has been subject to a professional accreditation process. This SI will eliminate that anomaly.

There is an accreditation process in Europe, run by the European Association of Establishments for Veterinary Education, or EAEVE. Under the SI, the RCVS will be able to acknowledge graduates of EAEVE-accredited schools as meeting the RCVS quality assurance standards, thus admitting them to membership of the Royal College—and it has committed to this. However, a minority of vet schools in Europe have not been EAEVE accredited; they have either submitted and failed, or have not submitted to the accreditation process. For the first time, graduates of such schools will not be automatically admitted to the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons register. They will have an alternative route, which is currently used by graduates of many vet schools throughout the world: namely, sitting the statutory examinations of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. I would submit that all this is eminently consistent and fair.

There is a small downside. Currently, about 13% of EU vets admitted to the MRCVS register are from EU schools which are not professionally accredited in any way. Therefore, this SI may slightly reduce the number of vets able to work here. I submit that that is a small but worthwhile price to pay to assure the public that any MRCVS vet meets proper professional quality assurance standards. We face a shortage of vets in the UK and that is likely to be exacerbated by Brexit. However, lowering standards is not the way to respond to this. A new graduate stream of vets from the University of Surrey will enter our labour market this summer and a new vet school in the Midlands is planned at the Universities of Keele and Harper Adams. In the immediate future, the solution to our workforce shortage is to facilitate the employment of vets from EU or global institutions which are accredited to the satisfaction of the RCVS. Those vets are available and keen to come to work here. The Home Office needs to enable and facilitate that, and a first major step would be to restore vets to the shortage occupation list.

In summary, I strongly support this regulation. It will remove an anomaly, strengthen animal health and welfare and strengthen the assurance of the public.

Lord Hope of Craighead Portrait Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)
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My Lords, I am happy to join the noble Lord, Lord Trees, in welcoming the veterinary surgeons regulation, and I also support the farriers and animal health regulations. I have just one comment, which relates to a point I raised on the fisheries regulation we discussed earlier. Our attention there was drawn to Annexe B, which summarised the effect of the amendments. I cannot help noticing that we do not have such an annexe for these regulations. I wonder whether the Minister could see if we could have such an annexe in future cases, because it is extremely helpful when one has a very telegraphic list of things, no doubt according to the usual practice. One finds that in both of these regulations; the first operative part amending the Act is a series of omissions and phrases with “or”, without any guidance on what they are talking about. The inclusion of an annexe would have been extremely helpful for understanding the general effect of the proposed amendments.

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Baroness Morris of Bolton Portrait Baroness Morris of Bolton (Con)
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My Lords, I had not intended to speak, but I have enjoyed listening to the debate so far, and I declare an interest as my son’s lovely girlfriend is a veterinary surgeon. I very much agree with the opening remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Trees. We hear a lot from all sides of the Brexit debate about the fear that there may be a lowering of standards. It is wonderful that this affords an opportunity to ensure that our veterinary surgeons are of the highest possible standard, which we all expect and enjoy. So I too very much welcome these regulations.

Lord Hope of Craighead Portrait Lord Hope of Craighead
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The noble Baroness reminds me that I probably should have declared an interest. My wife, who owns horses, benefits greatly from the services of veterinary surgeons and farriers.

Baroness Parminter Portrait Baroness Parminter (LD)
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My Lords, I am grateful to be able to participate in this debate. I agree with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Trees, that we all wish our veterinary surgeons to be of the highest standard and it is incumbent on us in this House to ensure that the public have the highest confidence in them. However, I disagree most strongly with his position that Brexit will be good for animal welfare and the veterinary profession.

We need to reflect on the very real challenge posed by Brexit about how we will get the number of vets that we will need in future. I will come on to the specific issue of no deal, where there are particular issues about how we will get the number of vets, but I echo the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Trees, that it would be wonderful if the Government could confirm tonight that vets will be added to the shortage occupation list. This would allay some of those concerns. Given that 50% of normal vets and 95% of vets in slaughterhouses come from Europe at the moment, how we ensure that we get qualified vets in the UK in future is absolutely critical. Although the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Trees, mentioned that, at the moment, only 13% of applicants come from colleges and veterinary schools around Europe which are not accredited, that is still a significant number and these regulations will create more barriers and fees. On top of that, if the Government keep to their stated immigration limits, there is a real risk that we will not have enough vets post Brexit.

That is particularly the case if we have a no-deal scenario. It was sobering to read the comments of the former Chief Veterinary Officer, Nigel Gibbens, who said that if we have a no-deal scenario, we will need an increase of 325% in veterinary certifications, to deal with the certification of animals and animal products at our ports. That is a major issue, which is relevant to this statutory instrument, as confirmed by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. It asked the department how we will ensure we can get more vets should we face a no-deal scenario, with that requirement for 325% more veterinary certifications. The answer the committee received was about this new para-professional job, called a “certification support officer”. This was news to me, and I have to say that, having read the information from the department, I am not really that much clearer about what these officers will do to address the huge shortfall in access to veterinary services if we leave the European Union without a deal. Defra has told the committee that it will not undertake veterinary duties, which begs the question: if these jobs are currently undertaken by vets, what administrative tasks will the new post of certification support officer be undertaking?

Is the Minister confident that these new postholders will be able to do the job? I for one am not clear what it is, but they will have to understand veterinary legislation and all the requirements for giving those certifications. Yet all they will receive is six hours of online training with an exam at the end. I understand that when the RCVS first discussed this with the department and with other departments, they were talking about post-training induction and a probationary period which would be under the direct supervision of a qualified vet. Having read some information online about the certification support officer, I can no longer find any indication of post-training induction or any probation under supervision. These certification support officers will be getting just six hours of online training, yet they will effectively be on the front line at a very important point, as the noble Lord, Lord Trees, says, where we have to assure the public that they can have confidence in public health and animal welfare.

In the supporting material the department makes it clear that it has made no estimation of how many certification support officers might be needed. Yet we know from the former Chief Veterinary Officer that there is an expected 325% increase in the need for veterinary certificates. So why has the department not done any estimation of how many new postholders we will need? Why is there not an impact assessment for this statutory instrument? That seems quite a necessary piece of information for Members of this House to have.

How many of these certification support officers do we now have in place? If we do leave in March, we are going to need these certification support officers, because we do not have enough vets to assure the public that their health, the health of people on the continent and the health of our animals are safe. That is an important point.

The noble Lord, Lord Trees, was right to raise the point about ensuring that our vets have the highest standards. I have been really proud that our country has in recent years been able to send our vets out to parts of Europe which have needed our expertise and our training to ensure that animals’ lives are bettered. We are talking here tonight about how we are going to register vets from other European countries in the UK. What is unclear is how the Government are going to get EU countries to register UK vets. Our vets do wonderful animal welfare work. I remember when I was at the RSPCA—many years ago now—we regularly sent vets out to countries outside Europe but also to places such as Greece, to deal with some of their equine and canine problems. If we cannot get our vets registered, how are our UK animal welfare organisations going to be able to send out our vets to carry on their work supporting animal welfare charities in Europe? It is possible that we will have to set up 27 bilateral agreements with all the other member states, and some of those countries may not be willing to have our vets going over there.

Lord Grantchester Portrait Lord Grantchester (Lab)
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I am grateful to the Minister for setting out the purpose of these SIs so clearly and for meeting me and others before today to discuss the technical changes being made. I thank the RCVS and the BVA for the briefings they have sent. I declare my interest as a dairy farmer, and endorse the Minister’s words of appreciation of vets and the work they undertake.

I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Trees, for his professional viewpoint and endorsement of these SIs. As the Minister is aware, Labour does not oppose these SIs, which are required to ensure that the UK has an operational system for regulating veterinary qualifications from EEA veterinary schools and to enable inspectors to enforce certain animal welfare standards following the UK’s exit from the EU.

Additionally, the UK must enable the system for recognising farrier qualifications from the EEA, enforcing animal health regulations and approving courses for certain equine and veterinary procedures to remain operationally effective. Nevertheless, I have several concerns about the implications of these SIs—particularly the veterinary surgeons regulations—for business, animal health and welfare, and the public. The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, was correct to raise concerns in her remarks.

Your Lordships’ House will appreciate the central role vets play in ensuring that standards are upheld in animal health and welfare, food safety and public health. The prospect of Brexit has raised concerns that there will not be the veterinary capacity to carry out these fundamental roles. In a no-deal scenario, the UK will require more work from vets to meet the increased demands for the certifications needed for export of animals and animal products, and for pet travel. The House of Commons Public Accounts Committee warned of the risk of UK exports of animals and animal products being delayed at the borders because of a shortage of vets, and was concerned that the department was,

“cavalier about enough suitably qualified staff to take on this work being available”.

An increasing shortage of vets was becoming apparent before the referendum in 2016. It is all the more worrying that, according to figures from the Major Employers Group, the veterinary profession is already reporting shortages in the UK of 11.5%. This is why we should be concerned that the changes in the SI may exacerbate an already challenging situation.

The Minister will be aware that EEA veterinary surgeons make up half of all new veterinary surgeons who register with the RCVS every year. EU nationals are critical to the UK, particularly in abattoirs, where 95% of vets are from the EU, responsible for upholding animal health, animal welfare, public health and trade. Worryingly, recent figures from the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons show that 32% of non-UK EU veterinary surgeons are considering a move back home and 18% are actively looking for work outside the UK, indicating that Brexit will exacerbate these shortages.

Does the Minister share my concern that a no-deal Brexit will exacerbate current shortages in the veterinary profession and create significant risks for trade, animal health and welfare, and food safety? What help are the Government providing to vets? What communication is being undertaken with them so that in six weeks’ time, in the event of a no-deal scenario, they are ready for an increased demand for export health certificates for animals and animal products?

The Explanatory Memoranda for both SIs say that,

“it is no longer considered appropriate to provide more favourable treatment”,

to EEA vets and farriers once reciprocal arrangements end. Can the Minister explain why these memoranda do not comment on whether, as with other EU exit regulations, there has been a policy change? Why has no consultation been undertaken with vets and businesses but only with the devolved Administrations? Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, drew attention to the lack of an impact assessment.

The RCVS has advised that the SI will enable it to automatically register veterinarians in its veterinary schools if the school is approved or accredited by the European Association of Establishments for Veterinary Education—EAEVE. However, the RCVS will not register graduates from certain other EU veterinary schools where the RCVS does not have sufficient assurance of educational standards. In the case of farriers, I believe it is the Farriers Registration Council that has the equivalent role.

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Although the change would impact only approximately 13% of EU veterinary applicants each year, the House may be concerned about the potential impact of this policy change at a time when recruitment is already challenging. Given the shortage of UK-trained vets and our dependence on vets from Europe, is immediately restricting the registration of graduates of non-EAEVE-accredited veterinary schools at this critical juncture prudent? Does the Minister share my concern that this may not be in the interests of farmers, stables, slaughterhouses and other supply-chain businesses that are reliant on vets and farriers? Can he assure the House that the increased demand for veterinary services will not lead to increased costs for UK exporters?
I would also be grateful if the Minister could advise whether the RCVS has the flexibility as a regulator to phase in the requirement in the event that the shortage of veterinary surgeons reaches crisis point under a no-deal scenario. Will he commit to monitoring the impact of the new arrangements and to publicise his department’s assessment?
The next concern is about cost. I am aware that non-EAEVE-accredited applicants would still be able to join the RCVS register, provided that they pass the UK statutory membership examination, which costs applicants £2,500 to sit. Does the Minister share my concern that the cost of the exam may deter EEA vets from choosing to seek work in the UK when they can work freely in any EEA state without the need to sit an additional, costly exam? Does he think that businesses may be forced to fund the cost of an applicant’s exam, if the recruitment crisis continues?
There may also be concerns regarding the RCVS’s ability to manage a sudden influx in demand for examinations, especially in the event of no deal, when the UK would urgently need to recruit more vets, some of whom will not be EAEVE-approved. Can the Minister assure the House that the RCVS will have sufficient capacity to manage any increase in candidates seeking to take the statutory examination? What contingency measures are in place to ensure maximum flexibility within the system so that any unexpected spikes in demand can be managed in a timely fashion?
Given the importance of filling veterinary surgeon vacancies as soon as possible, can the Minister advise how long it would take an applicant to organise and sit the exam, and how long they will have to wait to receive their result? Delays could prevent a veterinary surgeon registering and taking up a crucial post. A non-EAEVE-approved student may be unable to travel to the UK, so can the Minister advise on whether non-EAEVE-accredited applicants will be able to sit the test outside the UK? This may be necessary to prove their credentials for visa purposes in the future.
I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying in his opening remarks that this SI makes various amendments to different parent Acts. Thus I am well aware, and content, that the regulations also maintain entry into premises for both vets and farriers, in order to perform their duties. I also thank him for clarifying that there are other Acts, as well as those mentioned in the documents, to which the instruments apply.
I am also grateful to the Minister for clarifying that, in the case of farriers, the technicality of removing the express requirement to take EU interests into account with regard to foot and mouth does not signify any change in oversight or precautions, because this is covered in other requirements to prevent the spread of disease in all situations and to every aspect of interest. It is important to recognise that not only is the scourge of foot and mouth well known but it is understood that there will be no let-up in precautions against all possibilities of an outbreak of disease.
I also have concerns regarding the reciprocal nature of arrangements between the UK and EU following exit day. This was mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter. In paragraph 7.2 of both Explanatory Memoranda, it says that following exit,
“the EU will no longer recognise UK qualifications”.
Will the Minister confirm that this will indeed be the situation from day one, affecting not only UK vets currently working in the EU but those considering various posts in the future? There is a large contingent of UK vets who undertake veterinary work in Greece, Spain and other member states. After exit it will no longer be EU member states or the Government in the UK that reciprocate access. Instead, it will be a matter of reciprocity between the RCVS-maintained standards and the EAEVE standards. I recognise that the RCVS is the authorised regulator in this regard, but can the Minister confirm that RCVS standards will be recognised as compliant with EAEVE standards, so that UK vets can continue to practise in the EU? I have every confidence in the RCVS’s ability to perform the functions of the regulator, and that it will have ultimate oversight of EAEVE standards, but can any assurances be given that RCVS standards will be recognised internationally?
All this should underline for the Minister how critical it has now become to ensure that the veterinary profession has enough personnel of the commensurate standard to maintain all the necessary functions. Could the Minister confirm their status on the shortage occupation list under the new scenario drawn up by the Migration Advisory Committee? Will the Minister undertake to insist that the requirement to have sufficient vets is understood and recognised as being of the utmost national importance, to merit special status?
Finally, I refer to the new role of certification support officer. This has already been mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter. I understand that the RCVS has approved this initiative from the APHA that certain administrative tasks can be undertaken by CSOs to reduce the burden on overstretched vets. While this further underlines the need for the veterinary profession to be on the shortage occupation list, it also brings up another point to be recognised. As I understand the role, about which the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, has raised certain other concerns, the overall risks of the veterinary function remains with the vet, any partners and the business concerned. If the Minister confirms that I am correct, that will underline the need to monitor outcomes closely so that the department is clear whether this is a good initiative and whether it would be only a temporary scheme pending longer-term solutions.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble Portrait Lord Gardiner of Kimble
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My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their considerable contributions to this debate. We are all extremely fortunate to have heard such a powerful speech from the noble Lord, Lord Trees, who obviously comes to this House with unique expertise and knowledge of the veterinary profession. He quite rightly referred to high standards and protecting the public. I want to add, and have written here, that it is also about protecting the animals.

As I do not have any horses now, I probably do not have to declare the points that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, referred to about the use of a vet and a farrier, but we have all raised the importance of those professions. Again, I acknowledge the contribution of veterinary surgeons and farriers, who do so much to ensure high levels of animal health and welfare—and indeed, from the veterinary point of view, the protection of public health and food safety, and facilitating international trade. On behalf of the Government, I sincerely thank them all for the great work they do. I was very struck by my noble friend Lady Morris of Bolton’s intervention as well: the veterinary surgeon profession is, as I said in my opening remarks, overwhelmingly respected. I am afraid to say that, over time, we have seen many professions lose that reputation. So many vets are ambassadors for enhancing animal health and welfare.

A number of questions were a little detailed. In particular, I might need to write to the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, on the more intricate details of his request. I understand what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, said about the merits of annexe B. When I find SIs particularly impenetrable, the Explanatory Memorandum usually takes me back to an English version, but I will again take back and reflect on what was said about annexe B in the earlier SI being a helpful way forward.

On operability, where degrees meet our high standards due to having equivalent curriculum and training, holders of those degrees will be registered to practise. I think 87% of the EEA and Swiss nationals are unlikely to notice any changes at all, but a small number of cases have been highlighted where that will not be the case. It is right, as the noble Lord, Lord Trees, said, that those who do not have the standard of qualification should, if necessary, sit a statutory examination to prove that they can practise safely and effectively the UK. That will not affect anyone who is currently here or, as I said in my opening remarks, anyone during a transition period.

The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, referred to mutual recognition. Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, referred to the great work our vets, doctors and so many people do around the world by way of support and so forth. UK nationals wishing to practise veterinary surgery in the EEA after we leave will be subject to the rules of the individual member state where they wish to practise. Although I would very much like to have vets who trained here remain here, I also understand the global reach so many of them have by going back to countries where that training is of benefit.

Almost all noble Lords mentioned veterinary surgeon shortages. The noble Lord, Lord Trees, rightly referred to the intake from Surrey and what we look forward to from Keele and Harper Adams. I assure your Lordships that Defra provided evidence to the Migration Advisory Committee strongly supporting the return of veterinary surgeons to the shortage occupation list. The MAC is due to report in spring this year.

The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, raised the issue of official veterinarians and certification support officers. The Animal and Plant Health Agency launched a new role of certification support officer. It is designed to provide administrative support to official veterinarians, for the processing of export health certificates. The CSOs will work under close supervision of the official veterinarian so that they can continue to maintain high standards for the products we export. This will ensure that we use the valuable time of official vets more efficiently, to focus on the final assurance required to authorise and sign the EHC. As the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, rightly said, this role was approved by the RCVS last November. There are clearly a number of preparatory and administrative aspects to issuing export health certificates—such as checking documents, identifying products or sealing containers—that a CSO can perform. We have consulted the RCVS and the BVA. The entry qualifications and curriculum have been adjusted in response to their comments, and the BVA has asked for these to be kept under review.

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As I said, CSOs will work under the direction of the official vet, who can judge which task can be delegated. Ultimately, the official vet must be satisfied that the required conditions have been met before signing the certificate. As the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, again referred to, with the approval by the RCVS council at the beginning of November, the registration and training scheme went live on 17 December, free of charge to encourage uptake. Only official veterinarians can sign certificates for animal products intended for the EU, except in the case of fishery, shellfish and composite products intended for human consumption, which can be signed by a non-veterinarian, referred to as an official inspector in the certificates of those products. Certificates for an animal by-product—not for human consumption—have to be signed by an official veterinarian.
I will say to the noble Baroness that the issue of any assessment is not part of this SI. However, we are providing free training for 200 CSOs and 400 official vets, and recruiting 56 full-time staff at the Centre for International Trade to process export health certificates. We fully realise that we will clearly want to see how this proceeds. We think, given the advice we have received, that this will be sufficient, but we need to make sure that this works, and we recognise there will be an increased demand for export health certificates. Our discussions with the industry indicate that between its existing capacity, the use of CSOs and its ability to bring more vets into the market, it should be able to meet demand. Clearly, we will want to ensure that that is the case.
Turning to the 13% that will potentially be affected in the future, the first thing to mention is that, as raised by the noble Lord, Lord Trees, 10 schools in Europe do not currently meet RCVS-equivalent standards. It is absolutely possible that the 10 schools currently not accredited by EAEVE will eventually meet the RCVS standard if they make changes to their teaching curriculum. I hope that makes sense. I understand what the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, says about recognising that we need more vets but there is, as the noble Lord, Lord Trees, recognised, an anomaly. We therefore need to reflect that we want parity of standards; that must be in the public interest and in the interests of animals.
On the issue of the exam fee, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, I looked at this because I was interested in it myself. That fee is comparable to those of other professional regulators in terms of its purpose to recover the administrative costs of running a professional exam, including a clinical practice component. I should also say that the RCVS considers that—as I have said, we very much hope that those schools will come to the same standard—it has sufficient capacity to manage any anticipated increase in the number of candidates who may wish or need to undertake the statutory examination.
I should also say, coming from a dairy farming background, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for raising this, that foot and mouth is something that could not be worse news for any livestock farmer. I assure the noble Lord and others that I have, with the Chief Veterinary Officer, been in a number of practice runs with all devolved Administrations: this is something that is kept alive and very current, so that we are always fine-tuning and testing our response. Clearly, with disease, wherever it is—and there is now African swine fever in Belgium—we all need to be on our guard about biosecurity.
There were several points about details of timing and statistics, particularly from the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester. I will look at Hansard and reply with the best detail I can. Clearly, we are all looking forward and I think my diplomatic words were “strongly pressing” for vets to be put on that list. I assure noble Lords that the department, APHA and all of us who are engaged in this recognise the crucial role of vets. I put on record that we in the public sector owe an enormous debt of gratitude to EU nationals—we wish them to remain here and they will always be very welcome here—who have done so much to advance public health and animal health. They are crucial and I very much hope that, if there are any opportunities for any of us to meet them, as I do, we will stress the importance of what they are doing.
These are technical regulations in two very important parts of the animal health and public health arena and I think they are very important for our security.
Motion agreed.

Farriers and Animal Health (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Wednesday 6th February 2019

(5 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
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Motion to Approve
20:52
Moved by
Lord Gardiner of Kimble Portrait Lord Gardiner of Kimble
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That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 13 December 2018 be approved.

Motion agreed.
House adjourned at 8.52 pm.