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Oral Answers to Questions
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Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
1. What plans he has to encourage small and medium-sized businesses to take on apprentices.
Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)
5. What plans he has to encourage small and medium-sized businesses to take on apprentices.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
21. What plans he has to encourage small and medium-sized businesses to take on apprentices.
The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning (Mr John Hayes)
Last week, this Government announced a new £75 million programme of training and other targeted support focused specifically on small and medium-sized enterprises to help them access advanced and higher-level apprenticeships. We also announced on Monday that we will be working to reduce bureaucracy for SMEs, making it easier for them to take on those new apprentices.
Andrea Leadsom
Will my hon. Friend join me in congratulating the Silverstone motorsport college on its outstanding Ofsted report and on the fact that 50% of its motorsport technicians get apprenticeships in this high-tech, innovative industry? What more can he do to support increasing apprenticeships in this area?
Mr Hayes
In anticipation of my hon. Friend’s question, and because I know of her passionate interest in and advocacy of this subject, I have asked the National Apprenticeship Service to take further the work that I know she wants to be completed on offering a new motor race technician qualification. We will do that work, because we understand the points she makes, the value of that industry and its importance to our whole country.
Justin Tomlinson
I strongly welcome plans to expand the apprenticeships scheme further. The biggest barrier to the participation of small businesses is the lack of information, so will my hon. Friend consider moves to include promotional material in the annual business rates mailing?
Mr Hayes
That is a most welcome suggestion. I am perhaps known for my understatement, rather than my overstatement, but I do not think we can speak too loudly or clearly about apprenticeships, and that information is vital if we are to engage the businesses to create the prosperity we seek and build the opportunities we want.
Andrew Selous
Is my hon. Friend aware of the scale of the challenge facing the automotive industry, with the Institution of Mechanical Engineers saying that we need at least 10,000 apprenticeships a year for the United Kingdom to be at the forefront of the electric vehicle industrial revolution that is about to occur?
Mr Hayes
Yes, indeed. We recently announced that we are going to work with all the interested parties in the industry to bring about the kind of technological advance to which my hon. Friend refers. This is a real potential area for growth and we are determined, with the industry, to make that growth happen.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister will know that we are all in favour of apprenticeships these days—we welcome the coalition to the cause—but the fact is that this is all something of a fig leaf, given that all the other education policies seem to be falling apart. Higher education is in meltdown, but all we hear about is apprenticeships and the university technical colleges. This is a fig leaf covering up the lack of policy across the whole education and skills debate.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
The Minister will know that the number of apprenticeships in this country was just 65,000 in 1996. It has increased to nearly 280,000 now, but young people face worse unemployment than ever and growth is down. He will not set a target for the number of apprenticeships, but what will he do if the number falls back?
Mr Hayes
The hon. Lady rightly identifies that apprenticeships and pre-apprenticeship training can provide an important vehicle to bring people from disengagement to engagement. That is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education has cemented the work done in the Budget to create those extra apprenticeships for people moving from the very circumstances the hon. Lady describes to the skills and success they deserve.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
The Government’s flagship policy on employment and small businesses is the national insurance holiday for all companies outside London and the south-east. We heard only yesterday from Treasury officials that that has created only thousands of jobs, so is it time to go back to the drawing board on this policy?
Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)
2. What steps he is taking to promote expenditure on the manufacture of low-carbon technologies in each region.
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)
The Government are supporting a range of projects across the country including offshore wind, nuclear manufacturing, low-carbon vehicles and marine energy.
Tony Lloyd
It is self-evident that if every part of this country is to take advantage of the strong future in low-carbon technologies, we need investment in skills and research and, of course, access to finance. We heard some platitudes in answer to the first set of questions from the Minister’s colleague, but will the Minister tell us in hard terms what will be done to ensure that young people get those skills, that we have the research and that we have access to a finance system that knows that technologies north of Watford are worth investing in?
Mr Prisk
I refer the hon. Gentleman to what the Budget set out very clearly last week, but let me give him the tangible example he requests. The technology innovation centre for advanced manufacturing is designed specifically to ensure that clusters where we have excellence can be enabled. It will help Rotherham, Coventry, Sedgefield, Bristol, Strathclyde and Redcar. I hope he welcomes that support.
Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)
Given the consultation on changes to feed-in tariffs and the effect it might have had on decisions about solar investment, will the Minister work with his colleagues in the Department of Energy and Climate Change to examine what might be done to consider alternative ways of stimulating the manufacturing and assembly of solar equipment in this country?
Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)
We are about to enter a new financial year, so will the Minister take the opportunity to reconsider the Government’s denial of the loan to Sheffield Forgemasters that the Labour Government planned to boost our position in civil nuclear trade? More broadly, will he confirm that the Government are still committed to a new generation of nuclear power stations, given the awful unfolding tragedy in Japan and the comments made by the Deputy Prime Minister to journalists?
Mr Prisk
Our commitment is clear and the right hon. Gentleman knows exactly where the Government stand. We have debated the question of affordability and Sheffield Forgemasters before, but I would say to the right hon. Gentleman and to Labour Members that we have the regional growth fund and we have worked with a range of businesses, including the business to which he refers, and we are happy to ensure that they have the chance to bid for that money as that part of the fund develops.
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)
3. What steps he is taking to increase United Kingdom Trade and Investment’s share of world trade.
The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)
UK trade increased by 55% in real terms between 1998 and 2008. None the less, the relative share of world trade declined from 5.7% to 3.9%. Our recent trade and investment White Paper sets out how we will assist exporters, focusing UKTI and new trade finance products on small and medium-sized enterprises.
Stephen Metcalfe
A businessman in my constituency has traded successfully in north Africa for many years, but now does not know when his invoices will be paid, which affects his cash flow and business viability. Will my right hon. Friend consider introducing some form of payment guarantee scheme that will give SMEs the confidence to increase their share of world trade in the knowledge that they will be paid for it?
Vince Cable
I am aware of the firm that my hon. Friend describes and of its difficulties in Libya. If companies are operating in difficult markets, such as Libya, they are advised to take out trade insurance. Where the market cannot provide that, the Export Credits Guarantee Department will underwrite it. We are expanding the range of ECGD products and the Treasury has authorised payments to companies in Libya for which insurance is due.
Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op)
Over the next four years, UKTI is set to have its budget cut by some 17%. The schemes most commended by the CBI are passport to export and gateway to global growth. Will the Minister give an assurance that among the budget cuts those services will be protected?
Vince Cable
I can assure the hon. Gentleman that UKTI is capable of and committed to providing an increased range of activities and a better service even within its budget.
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
More than 50% of dairy farms in the UK closed under the Labour Government yet demand for dairy products across the world is rocketing. Will my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State set out what proposals we have to launch an ambitious plan to export dairy products across the world?
Vince Cable
Many of the problems of the dairy industry relate to the system of EU common agricultural policy financing, but I will look at the specific issue described by my hon. Friend and see what we can do to promote it.
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)
4. What discussions he has had with the North Eastern local enterprise partnership on the location of proposed enterprise zones; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)
Last Thursday, I was in the north-east and met the North Eastern local enterprise partnership. We had a very useful discussion about the way in which enterprise zones will help the growth of the local economy and I was encouraged by the positive response I received.
Mrs Hodgson
I am very pleased to hear that the Minister got a positive response—I would expect nothing less of the friendly north-east. The Chancellor said in his Budget statement last Wednesday that there would be an enterprise zone on Tyneside, but the Red Book refers to an enterprise zone in the North Eastern local enterprise partnership, and I am sure the Minister is aware that they are not one and the same. The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change told the Sunderland Echo that Sunderland had a really good chance of getting an enterprise zone. Will the Minister confirm that the Chancellor misled the House last week and that a decision has not yet been made on where—
Mr Prisk
Well, I am glad we cleared that up, Mr Speaker. I can make it very simple for the hon. Lady: we are not going to impose a command and control model. We are working with local enterprise partnerships and we have offered zones where LEPs would like to locate them within their areas. We will discuss this with partnerships in the north-east and elsewhere.
Mr Speaker
I call Mr Zahawi, on the subject of the north-east from the vantage point of Stratford-on-Avon.
Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)
Like the North Eastern local enterprise partnership, Coventry and Warwickshire local enterprise partnership would very much like to talk to the Minister about our proposal for an enterprise zone—
Mr Speaker
Order. That was a nice try but the hon. Gentleman’s question must specifically relate to the north-east, about which I thought the hon. Gentleman probably had extensive knowledge.
Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab)
Is not the danger of the Minister’s enterprise zone policy that it enriches landlords and developers by drawing economic activity from one area to another? When considering locations for the north-east, will he focus on the creation of jobs in industrial areas?
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
6. What recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on the future levels of Government funding to Citizens Advice; and if he will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)
Last month I met the Minister with responsibility for civil society, the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd), and other Ministers with an interest in advice services to co-ordinate our national efforts. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has already agreed to protect the core funding for the umbrella organisations Citizens Advice and Citizens Advice Scotland.
Barbara Keeley
I thank the Minister for that answer, which I did not hear much of. Walkden citizens advice bureau, which is in Salford, serves an area that is among the 7% most deprived in the country, and has done since 1939, but it is now under threat because of uncertainty about funding and because of cuts. Will the Minister call a halt to the cuts in funding for advice services, and will he conduct an urgent review on the future of the funding of those vital organisations?
Mr Davey
The hon. Lady will know that local citizens advice bureaux are funded by local authorities and that the Government have called on local authorities to play their part, as the national Government are playing their part, and to pass on funding to CAB services. Those services are very important and are valued, and we are looking to all local authorities to play their part.
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
At a recent meeting I chaired, representatives from individual CABs and other advice centres from across the country gave the loud and clear message that the current uncertainty about the funding of advice services means that advice service centres are closing their doors, expert advice workers are being made redundant and vulnerable people will soon have nowhere to turn for advice. It is all very well the Minister’s blaming the closure of individual CABs on local government decisions, but those decisions are often taken in the light of extreme uncertainty about the future of other funding streams. His Government admits that there is much cause for concern, so why has he not sought an immediate moratorium on all cuts to Government funding streams for advice services for the coming financial year in order to allow time for a longer-term strategy to be developed?
Mr Davey
I am very surprised that the hon. Lady did not mention the £27 million that the Government announced last month for face-to-face debt advice. That has been strongly welcomed by citizens advice bureaux across the country, and I would have thought that she would have given us credit.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
The CABs in Goole and Scunthorpe provide excellent advice to my constituents on debt-related issues. While I welcome the money that has been announced, is it not time that we tried to achieve a national approach? CABs have a battle, year in, year out, to secure funding, which clearly does not help our constituents.
Mr Davey
As I said in my initial response, we are working across government with other Ministers to make sure that we co-ordinate national efforts. We will soon respond to the call for evidence on personal consumer credit and personal insolvency, which will deal with issues such as debt advice.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
7. What recent assessment he has made of the attitudes of employers to taking on apprentices.
The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning (Mr John Hayes)
With over 85,000 employers offering apprenticeships, it is clear that many businesses already recognise the associated benefits of improved business and personnel performance. The evidence of strong demand is supported by research. The findings of the skills economy research from July 2010 are that 83% of employers rely on their apprenticeship programme to provide the skilled work force that they need.
Kevin Brennan
The Minister has been quite generous in the past about the work done by Ministers in the previous Government, including me, on apprenticeship numbers, and he has made a commitment to build on that. Does he have any concerns about the targets on apprenticeships over the coming period, given the pretty dire figures on GDP for the economy?
Mr Hayes
The hon. Gentleman, like me, is fond of Yeats, who said:
“Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking.”
That is what we have done. The hon. Gentleman is right. I have followed him, and he is a hard act to follow, because he was a very competent Minister. I can tell the House—and I know that you, Mr Speaker, will be pleased to hear it—that the Statistical First Release published today illustrates that we are likely, or certainly on target, to reach the ambitions I have set out, which is good news for the hon. Gentleman, good news for me and good news for Britain.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Is my hon. Friend aware that the number of 16 to 18-year-olds taking apprenticeships in Essex has increased by 44% over the past year, and that Essex council and Harlow college are investing £100,000 in 50 apprenticeships for people from poorer backgrounds? Will he look at rolling out that scheme across the country?
Mr Hayes
I know of the good work done by my hon. Friend and by Harlow college. He will wish to know that there was a 20% increase in apprenticeship starts in 2010-11 compared with the same period in the previous year. That is because of the work of organisations such as Harlow college and the advocacy of hon. Members such as my hon. Friend.
Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)
Over the past few years, the oil and gas industry in north-east Scotland has created many new apprenticeships and skilled many new workers for the future. Does the Minister accept that that has been put at risk by the massive tax increase announced without any consultation in the Budget?
Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con)
8. What steps he is taking to increase the status and prestige of adult vocational learning.
The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning (Mr John Hayes)
The aesthetic of vocational learning is at the very heart of our ambitions. I want apprenticeships to become the primary work-based learning route and apprentices to be recognised for their achievements. For too long, we have allowed the myth to be perpetrated that only academic accomplishment can lead to work. That is not so, and it is certainly not so for this Government.
Mr Evennett
I congratulate my hon. Friend on the work he has done in this area, and I thank him for that answer. However, does he agree that community and vocational courses are absolutely invaluable, not only for career advancement and upskilling but for younger people not in education, employment or training.
Mr Hayes
Yes, we spoke earlier about the importance of using those skills to create a bridge from disengagement to engagement. No one has been a doughtier champion of the need to stand up for those people than my hon. Friend. That requires a raising of the status of apprenticeships, but it also requires better progression, which is why I want to build an accessible, navigable and seductive vocational ladder that people can climb.
Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)
May I ask the Minister what discussions he has had with his counterparts in the Department for Education? The Secretary of State for Education consistently downgrades vocational qualifications in school. We cannot expect adults to value vocational education if we do not value it throughout the system. Is there not a disjunction in Government policy?
Mr Hayes
I am, for the purposes of this conversation at least, the Department for Education, and I can assure the hon. Lady that the Secretary of State for Education is wholly committed to this route. Indeed, his oral statement to the House earlier this week cemented and reinforced his commitment to apprenticeships and vocational learning.
George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)
9. What steps he is taking to support the commercial development of life sciences through industry partnerships.
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)
The Budget included a plan for growth for life sciences, including the development of a new technology innovation centre, the speeding up and reforming of clinical trials and the establishment of research partnerships to support the new model of open innovation and collaboration in the industry.
George Freeman
I thank the Minister for his reply and congratulate him on his commitment to business. Last week’s Budget set out a clear strategy for growth based on science, innovation and enterprise, particularly in my area, the biotech corridor between Cambridge and Norwich. Does he agree that the challenge is to ensure that our leading research institutes link up with industry so that our science is driven around the world in the three biggest markets: food, energy and medicine?
Mr Prisk
My hon. Friend is an outstanding champion in this field, and I was pleased that we were able to support Norwich research park in that context, for which he has fought and argued for many months. Our plan is about accelerating innovation, investing in the way collaboration takes place and ensuring that we retain this country’s world-class role in life sciences and biotechnology.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
10. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change on the effects on businesses of trends in the cost of fuel.
The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)
I recently discussed the rising cost of energy with my counterpart at the Department of Energy and Climate Change to assess the cumulative burden of climate change policies and see what the Government can do to secure the competitiveness of energy-intensive industries as we decarbonise the economy.
Mr Bone
We have an absolutely splendid coalition team in DBIS, led by a fantastic Secretary of State. In the past, energy was always the responsibility of the Business Department. Surely it should come back to that Department so that we can send out the message that we do care about business in relation to energy— and I could not think of a better set of people to look after it.
Vince Cable
I am very flattered by the suggestion, if a little surprised, but I am already fully employed with my existing duties. In my recent conversation with my counterpart at DECC, we agreed that considerable progress had been made with Ofgem’s recent report on opening up competition and benefiting consumers, both industrial and personal.
Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
Energy-intensive industries in my constituency, of which there are many, are worried about the cumulative impact of regulations relating to a carbon floor price on their competitiveness. Is the Secretary of State having discussions with the Treasury and DECC to ensure that our industries do not lose out to foreign competition?
Vince Cable
I am doing just that. On Monday I was in Port Talbot to talk with Tata Steel about that exact question. It is absolutely right that the Government press ahead with our ambition to decarbonise the economy, but the system of tax and regulation is complex and we must structure it in a way that supports our energy-intensive industries.
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
11. What steps he is taking to reduce the level of regulation of businesses.
Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con)
16. What steps he is taking to reduce the level of regulation of businesses.
The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)
We have introduced the one-in, one-out rule to stem the flow of new regulation. We have also introduced sunset clauses on new domestic regulation, stopped gold-plating EU directives and launched a consultation on tribunals. In the Budget we announced a three-year moratorium on new regulation for micro-businesses. We will shortly launch a public review of the existing stock of over 21,000 regulations.
Harriett Baldwin
I welcome all those measures, but spin-offs and start-ups in West Worcestershire are discovering that in order to win Government procurement contracts they need to have accounts for the past two years, and I wonder whether the Secretary of State would urgently review that.
Vince Cable
We are taking steps to open up public procurement for the kinds of small spin-offs the hon. Lady describes. There is, of course, an aspiration to increase public procurement from SMEs to 25%. At the beginning of the year the pre-qualification questionnaires, which were appallingly complex, were simplified, and they will shortly be removed altogether from companies trading at over £100,000.
Gavin Williamson
Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that he will work very closely with industry to tackle increasing environmental regulation, which has already been touched on, especially that coming over from the European Union, so that we do not have uncompetitive industries?
Vince Cable
Environmental regulation is covered by the moratorium that I have just described. Of course, if it is European Union regulation, we cannot unilaterally disband it, but we can ensure that there is no gold-plating, which is why we are following a minimal copying-out procedure for EU legislation.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
The regulation of business is important for promoting employment. In my constituency, youth unemployment is 30%, which is way too high, so will there be an enterprise zone to look at business regulation and employment in the south Wales valleys?
Vince Cable
As I discovered when I discussed the matter with them on Monday, the Welsh Assembly Government have responsibility for designated enterprise zones. I hope they will follow the model we are pursuing in England, and indeed we strongly commended it to them.
Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab)
The Secretary of State’s very own figures show that he is not a deregulator but a regulator. It is 53-in, 3-out, not one-in, one-out, but apparently there is hope on the horizon, because he is going to repeal another regulation— one introduced to seize German-owned property after the war. I am sure Chancellor Merkel will be happy about that, but the point will be lost on UK business.
We hear from the Secretary of State about his plans to review 21,000 business regulations, but at this rate it will take more than 7,000 years to achieve that aim—and looking at the Secretary of State I do not think he has the time on his side. When will he ditch his rhetoric and begin practising what he preaches before it is too late?
Vince Cable
The regulations that related to my Department were either European or related to the implementation of the minimum wage. I know the Opposition are showing considerable political versatility at the moment, but I did not think that they had got around to demanding the abolition of the minimum wage.
Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)
12. What discussions he has had with his international counterparts on steps to increase transparency in the reporting of company profits.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)
I, personally, have not had any recent discussions with my international counterparts on the matter, but the Government are committed to greater transparency through corporate reporting. Internationally, the Treasury is leading the Government’s efforts with the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development’s task force on tax and development, which is exploring the issues of country-by-country reporting on tax and profits.
Margaret Curran
In the light of his answer, the Minister will be aware of the OECD’s recognition that poor countries lose more money each year to corporate tax-dodging than they receive in aid, and Christian Aid estimates that to amount to $160 billion. May I ask him to have a conversation with the Secretary of State? The right hon. Gentleman said in opposition:
“New accounting standards are needed to force multinational companies to declare publicly the profits they make and the taxes they pay in every country in which they operate. That way anomalies will be quickly spotted.”
Can I reasonably assume that, in the light of his commitment to the issue, the Government will raise it at the G20 in November?
Mr Davey
I think that the Government—both my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the Chancellor—actually have a very good record on the issue. We are contributing to the OECD taskforce, because it is about ensuring not just that UK companies report their profits as they need to, but that we improve corporate performance throughout the world.
Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)
What guarantees can the Government give for those companies that report their profitability transparently that, at the next Budget, the Treasury will not come along and, completely out of the blue, wallop them with a great windfall tax, as it just has with the offshore oil and gas industry?
Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)
13. What recent assessment he has made of the administrative efficiency of the student loans system.
The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning (Mr John Hayes)
The service provided by the Student Loans Company in the desperate, dying days of the previous Government was woeful, and it led to an independent report that said so. We replaced the chairman of the company immediately after we entered office, and I am pleased to report that the SLC answered more than 95% of telephone calls in the peak period from August to September 2010, compared with just 13% during a similar period in the previous year.
Anna Soubry
I am very grateful to the Minister for that response and to hear of those improvements. I have had a number of complaints from families in my constituency about repeated requests for information. Will the Minister assure families in constituencies such as mine and, indeed, throughout the United Kingdom that they will not have to suffer as they have because of past inefficiencies?
Mr Hayes
My right hon. Friend the Minister for Universities and Science is absolutely determined that the service provided by the Student Loans Company should be up to scratch. I can tell the House, and my hon. Friend, that 99% of applications received from students who applied by the relevant deadlines with the correct documentation were ready for payment at the start of term. This is real progress, but we are not complacent, and we will always insist that we do the very best with the Student Loans Company.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
14. What recent representations he has received on the future funding of science and research.
The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)
During the allocation of science and research funding, BIS consulted the national academies, business groups and universities and agreed a flat-cash ring-fenced settlement for science and research of £4.6 billion a year for 2011-15. In the Budget, the Government invested a further £100 million in science capital, including £10 million at Daresbury.
Stephen Mosley
I welcome the announcement in last week’s Budget of the extra £100 million in capital spending, including the £10 million at Daresbury. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that that £100 million comes from the permanent bank levy, which was introduced by this coalition Government against opposition from Labour Members?
Vince Cable
I can confirm that. Of course, the bank levy has a good economic basis because it is the payment that the banks make for the protection that the state provides for banks that are too big to fail. The £100 million is new money—new capital investment—and I am delighted that my hon. Friend’s campaign for Daresbury has borne fruit in this way.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
In November, the Chancellor took £1.4 billion out of capital investment for science. Last week, he gave back about £100 million—strangely, all of it to Conservative constituencies. Our country’s leading reputation in science deserves better than that. When this week’s Royal Society report, “Knowledge, networks and nations”, spelled out the rise of China, India, Korea and Brazil as science superpowers, it was unable to set out the UK’s long-term plan because there is not one. Will the Secretary of State prevail on the Chancellor to agree a long-term plan for science funding, as we had under Labour?
Vince Cable
There is a long-term plan for science funding. The hon. Lady obviously has not followed the comments that were made by the Royal Society and many others in the science community welcoming the flat-cash settlement and the ring-fencing of the science budget.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
15. How many universities he expects to charge less than £7,500 in tuition fees from 2012.
The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)
No university wishing to charge over £6,000 yet knows for certain how much it will charge, since no university has yet signed an access agreement with the Office for Fair Access. We expect there to be a wide range of charges, and those institutions discussing higher charge levels all look set to include substantial waivers for students from poorer backgrounds.
Diana Johnson
Hull university is reported to be planning to charge up to the £9,000 limit. Combined with this week’s announcement about the slashing by two thirds of the education maintenance allowance support to students, how will this help to attract more students from areas such as Hull to university, bearing in mind the excellent progress that was made under the Labour Government?
Vince Cable
As the hon. Lady knows, and as we have discussed many times in this Chamber, the introduction of graduate contributions at the level we have will ensure that universities are indeed properly funded and maintain funding at world-class levels.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
Is my right hon. Friend still reminding universities that it is unreasonable of them to charge fees significantly above the cost of providing the course and asking them to make sure that when they set their final fees in the coming weeks, they honour the cost that they said they would charge some months ago?
Vince Cable
May I first thank my right hon. Friend for the extraordinarily useful work that he has been doing on social mobility? On his question, the Browne report estimated that universities would need to charge something in the order of £7,500 simply to replace their income, but no more, and that if they made the kind of efficiencies that other institutions are effecting, it could be as little as £6,000.
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
We have had the damaging row over student visas—still not sorted—and a Treasury growth paper that largely ignored the central role that universities have to offer for our economic future. However, the most serious problem is the considerable hole the Government are now staring at in their higher education budget—all because they ignored the many independent experts who warned, even before the tuition fees vote, that universities would charge close to the maximum fee level. Given the huge uncertainties facing university finances, all of them Government-created, does the Secretary of State not recognise that this House is entitled to know how that funding gap will be plugged?
Vince Cable
First, the hon. Gentleman is terribly behind the times. He may not have listened to the Home Secretary’s statement on student visas, but she made it absolutely clear that there is no cap on student visas and that the study to work route is still available for overseas students. The universities have acknowledged that. There is no hole in the finances. If he had followed the public announcements that universities have made, he would have seen that of the 36 that we are aware of, 13 propose to charge up to the maximum. That is well below the 80% quoted by the Leader of the Opposition yesterday. Of those universities, many will have substantial fee remission on the Oxford model.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
I have discussed on many occasions with the Minister for Universities and Science my view that Governments should avoid unnecessary interference in universities. The enhanced role given to OFFA is causing great unease in the sector and among some Government Members. Will the Secretary of State clarify the powers that OFFA has and how it will be expected to deploy them in relation to universities that set fees above £6,000?
Vince Cable
I think that there is complete clarity. I set out the position in a letter that I sent to OFFA some weeks ago, which is available and which I can certainly make available to the hon. Gentleman. It is absolutely right that, in return for being allowed to charge the higher fee levels, universities should make the maximum possible access available to people from disadvantaged backgrounds. There is a particular problem with traditional universities, where social mobility declined in the last decade. We are determined to overcome that.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
17. What plans he has to increase levels of employment in small and medium-sized enterprises.
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)
Small businesses are vital to the economy and to future employment. That is why we have tackled the cost of employment by reversing the last Government’s plans for a payroll tax increase, and why the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey) has launched a comprehensive review of employment law to make the system easier and fairer for employees and employers.
David Rutley
I was pleased to see that the Federation of Small Businesses welcomed the Government’s three-year moratorium on new domestic legislation for micro-businesses. Will my hon. Friend assure the House that that and other measures to reduce the regulatory burden and increase job creation by small and medium-sized enterprises will be taken forward at pace, and that there will be regular updates to the House on their progress?
Mr Prisk
I am delighted to confirm that to the House. Those measures are crucial. We have to remember that under the previous Government, the proportion of employers who were small businesses dropped from well over a third to well under a quarter, and that was in a period of growth. We need to ensure that we reverse that trend.
Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)
One way to increase employment in small and medium-sized businesses in Stoke-on-Trent would be for us to have an enterprise zone. Following the Prime Minister’s very positive response to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) yesterday and the extensive meetings that north Staffs MPs have had with the Secretary of State, can the Minister give some comfort to people in north Staffordshire that the local enterprise partnership will be looked on favourably, and could we have a meeting?
Mr Prisk
The hon. Gentleman is right that enterprise zones will be advantageous for small businesses. There is a second opportunity for 10 further enterprise zones. We are happy to talk to the local enterprise partnership in that area to ensure that it is able to put forward a positive dialogue. If the hon. Gentleman and other Members wish to participate in that, I suspect that my diary secretary will not be thrilled, but I shall be happy to see them.
Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) (Lab)
18. What recent discussions he has had with his G20 counterparts on corporate social responsibility.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)
I have had no such discussions in the context of the G20. However, in January, I met Professor Ruggie, the UN special representative on business and human rights. The Government welcome the guiding principles developed by Professor Ruggie and will work to build consensus for their adoption.
Bridget Phillipson
I thank the Minister for that answer. In opposition, the Secretary of State was a keen supporter of global action to tackle corporate tax dodging in developing countries, but the Department’s recent White Paper did not include a single reference to it. When will the Government put that right?
Mr Davey
The hon. Lady was not listening to the answer that I gave a few moments ago to her colleague, the hon. Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran). The Government are working hard with the OECD taskforce on tax and development, because we want greater transparency in the reporting of profits and tax.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
20. What progress he has made on the implementation of his proposals for a groceries code adjudicator.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)
The groceries code adjudicator Bill is being drafted. I had hoped to publish it before Easter, but now I expect that publication will happen soon after Easter.
Neil Carmichael
I thank the Minister for that encouraging reply. Farmers in my constituency are very anxious to see the introduction of an adjudicator. Will it have sufficient powers to impose financial penalties if there is persistent avoidance of the code of practice?
Mr Davey
When we publish the Bill, the hon. Gentleman will see that we wish to have a reserve power for the adjudicator on penalties, but there is also a real case to be made for the adverse publicity that large supermarkets would face if they breached the groceries supply code of practice.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Last week we had a debate in Westminster Hall on the pig industry, and Members indicated clearly that if there was no immediate action to restore the balance between supermarkets’ profits and the profitability of farmers, many farmers would go out of business. What steps is the Minister taking to ensure that that does not happen?
Mr Davey
I may have to refer the hon. Gentleman to Ministers in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, who are obviously responsible for agriculture. We should be clear that the groceries code adjudicator will not be a price regulator—that has never been proposed. It will be there to enforce the groceries supply code of practice. That is very important, because it is in the interests not just of the producers and farmers who supply the large supermarkets but of consumers.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)
My Department has a key role in supporting business to deliver growth, rebalancing the economy, bringing enterprise, manufacturing, training, learning and research closer together and, in the process, creating a stronger, fairer British economy.
Kevin Brennan
On tuition fees, has the Secretary of State read the reports of the Deputy Prime Minister’s visit to Mexico, where he was humiliated first by a Mexican student who said that he could no longer afford to come and study in Britain, and then by the Mexican President, who said that British students should go to study in Mexico instead? Is the Secretary of State in any way embarrassed by the fact that his policy on tuition fees has become a laughing stock across the world?
Vince Cable
I was not in Mexico, I was in another country—Wales—discussing the issue. The simple truth is that, as I am sure we have communicated to the Mexican authorities, Mexican students are welcome to come to this country and there is no cap on the number of overseas students.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
T3. The Macclesfield, Richmond and Wandsworth chambers of commerce are developing local mentoring schemes to help better support smaller businesses, and have submitted a related bid to the regional growth fund. Does the Minister agree that such approaches deserve serious consideration and will provide important insights to other local communities?
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)
I would be wise not to over-promote a live bid to the regional growth fund, but my hon. Friend is absolutely right that business-to-business mentoring is the best way forward. That is why we are developing a national scheme, and the contribution in the areas that he mentions sounds eminently sensible.
Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab)
We would not have destroyed regional development agencies in the chaotic and Maoist manner that the Secretary of State has described, but as a constructive Opposition, we have proposed that RDA assets be transferred to local economic partnerships to promote growth and jobs. Will he confirm that many RDAs, including those in the north-west, the east midlands, the south-west, Yorkshire and Humberside and the south-east have also proposed that assets be transferred to local authorities in LEP areas, which will pay for them as jobs and growth are created? Why has he blocked those transfers?
Vince Cable
In our Dengist phase, the LEPs are doing extremely well in constructing business-led leadership at local level. The process by which RDA assets are allocated is set out in the White Paper. As the right hon. Gentleman will know, some of the RDAs have negative net worth, so the issue of asset distribution does not apply. There will be different allocations, and my departmental officials are working through the RDAs’ legacy carefully.
Mr Denham
The Secretary of State does not seem to know what is on his own website, which makes it very clear that he has blocked the transfer of those assets to local authorities. Will he confirm that the assets of RDAs that will now be sold will be worth more than the investment in enterprise zones? Is not the Conservative leader of Fareham council, who heads the Solent LEP, right when he says:
“Selling them at this time in the economic cycle is the worst possible solution. Treasury is looking for quick wins but that will undermine the growth agenda. We are meant to be focusing on growth but that will undermine the growth agenda”?
Why does the Secretary of State believe that Whitehall knows best, or has he been overruled yet again by the Treasury, who are the people who really run his Department?
Vince Cable
The right hon. Gentleman seems to have forgotten that those are taxpayers’ assets, the disposal of which should be done in a way that produces best value for money for the taxpayer. Some will be disposed of and sold, and some will be transferred when that will produce a good outcome. The process is being carefully worked through at departmental level, and it will produce a sensible outcome that remains supportive of local initiatives through the local enterprise partnerships.
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
T5. The funding for technology innovation centres is extremely welcome. Will the Secretary of State update me on any representations he has received on a bid from Malvern to the Technology Strategy Board?
Vince Cable
Technology innovation centres are proving extremely welcome in the research community because they represent a bridge between academic research and business application. The first of those—the advanced manufacturing TIC—has been launched, and I went to Rotherham at its outset. Others are being prepared, and I am sure that the one in my hon. Friend’s constituency will be carefully considered by the TSB.
Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)
T2. On enterprise zones, do the Government agree that it is important that subsidies are not simply given to jobs and development that would have happened anyway? It is fairly easy to see how the Government could stop, and take measures to prevent, a firm from simply transferring to an enterprise zone with public money, but if a firm decides to expand into an enterprise zone, or if a new firm is created in one, how can the Government ensure that money is not simply given to a development and jobs that would have existed without the subsidy?
Mr Prisk
Care needs to be taken in respect of the displacement effects of this policy, and indeed any other spatial economic policy, because of the danger to which the hon. Gentleman alludes. We are working deliberately with local enterprise partnerships to minimise that danger, and looking to ensure that we understand the dynamics of the economy in those areas. That is why the whole Government are ensuring that we do not simply impose the policy from the centre, but work with enterprise partnerships.
Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con)
T6. Since 1997, the proportion of A-level students studying core academic subjects has fallen, despite the fact that those subjects are preferred by universities. I think that that is partly down to the equivalence of UCAS points and the league tables. What action will the Minister take to ensure that universities make specific subject offers rather than points offers, and that they publish students’ results?
The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning (Mr John Hayes)
My hon. Friend knows that universities are independent organisations and that they decide which offer they make to applicants. Nevertheless, the Government are working with UCAS to explore how it can publish for each course the most popular qualifications of previously accepted applicants. We welcome the Russell group publication, “Informed Choices”, which includes advice on subjects. Universities, as Disraeli said, should be places of life, liberty and learning.
Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)
T4. There are still high numbers of rogue operators in the fee-paying debt management industry and they often charge high amounts and pay not one penny to creditors. Does the Minister agree with the argument advanced in Wednesday’s Daily Mirror by the free advice sector that it is no longer tenable to stand by and fail to protect vulnerable individuals from those companies?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)
The hon. Lady is right to raise this matter. She will know from her time working in the citizens advice bureau in her area how significant this matter is. Some debt advice agencies out there—frankly—do not act in an acceptable way. We are considering this issue under the consumer credit and personal insolvency review, and will make an announcement after the Easter recess.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
T9. I am all in favour of encouraging enterprise and start-up businesses. However, what will my hon. Friend do about the current scandal of businesses trading, taking people’s money, closing down overnight, then starting up the next day with the same directors and defaulting on all due payments? That is a scandal in society and we must stop it.
Mr Davey
My hon. Friend is exactly right, so I hope he welcomes the statement that I have made today on this very issue. Following a consultation launched by the previous Government, we have concluded that action needs to be taken on phoenix companies when assets are sold to connected parties without open marketing. Our proposals, which are in the statement, include insolvency practitioners giving three days’ notice to all creditors before the sale, which we think will be valuable.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
T7. The proposed changes to the feed-in tariff for solar energy projects has dealt the industry a massive body blow and left in tatters plans by Norton sports and social club in my constituency to build one to finance their community work. How many more projects have been deferred, and what does the Secretary of State have to say to this job-creating industry?
Vince Cable
As the hon. Gentleman knows, the feed-in tariff consultation is being conducted by the Department of Energy and Climate Change, but I will certainly communicate his concerns to it.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
T10. I am very lucky to have many successful manufacturing businesses in my constituency, and I am always one to talk up our manufacturing expertise, whether it is David Brown Engineering in Lockwood, Thornton and Ross pharmaceuticals in Linthwaite, Equi-Trek horseboxes in Meltham or any one of many others. However, some of my smaller businesses are still reporting problems with bank lending. How aware is the ministerial team of this problem, and what can we do to help such businesses to achieve multimillion pound turnovers?
Vince Cable
The hon. Gentleman is right that manufacturing is a success story. It is now growing at double-digit levels annually, in stark contrast with what happened in the period after 1997, when we had a hollowing out of manufacturing more rapid than anywhere else in the world. However, he is right that there is a threat to small and medium-sized enterprises in particular from bank lending practices. We have secured commitments to 15% more lending from the banks, but much more needs to be done.
Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)
T8. Given that demand for student places was always going to exceed supply this coming year, is the Secretary of State surprised that universities are charging as much as he has allowed them to charge?
Vince Cable
The hon. Gentleman might be confusing the coming year with the year for which fee levels are being announced. However, as I said earlier, there is a wide distribution of proposed charge levels by the universities that have already made announcements—less than a quarter of all universities—and this reflects the policy that we introduced.
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that the Government will not attempt to reduce the number of places at universities charging the full rate of £9,000 a year in order to oblige a greater proportion of students to attend universities that charge less?
Vince Cable
We certainly wish to encourage providers that charge highly competitive fee levels, but we also wish to encourage high-quality universities of the kind my hon. Friend described. I do not think that the two are in any way incompatible.
John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
Will the three-year moratorium that the Secretary of State mentioned earlier apply to health and safety legislation? I ask that question in view of the fact that two people are killed every week in construction.
Mr Prisk
We are reviewing health and safety legislation following a report on a common-sense approach to it. The moratorium approach to domestic regulation for micro-businesses will extend across health and safety, but it will be a common-sense approach based on ensuring that when public safety or national security are involved, measures are progressed.
Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)
In the light of the excellent question from my hon. Friend the Member for Reading East (Mr Wilson), surely it is a matter for universities to decide who to admit on individual merit, not for us to have a central Government control model—a command and control model—that inevitably produces unfair discrimination. We are trying to build a big society, not recreate the Soviet Union, are we not?
Vince Cable
There is no command and control. Indeed, we are seeking to free universities from the complex, rather Stalinist system that we inherited. None the less, it is right that the Office for Fair Access should judge universities that wish to charge the top rate according to its access criteria.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
The Minister might be aware that the Office of Fair Trading is receiving complaints about the market dominance and business practices of Electoral Reform Services. Will he encourage the OFT to be more attentive and responsive to those complaints than it has been to previous complaints?
Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)
The excellent Coventry and Warwickshire local enterprise partnership is considering imaginative ways to make an offer for the next tranche of enterprise zones. Will the Minister meet it and me to discuss its imaginative ideas?
Mr Prisk
Mr Speaker, I think we have both now got our maps out and are sorting out the geography. However, the important thing is that the LEPs will be able to talk to the Government. The policy is led by the Department for Communities and Local Government, but we are working with it, and I am sure that the Government would be happy to hear from my hon. Friend.
Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)
Given that Leeds Met is the latest university to announce fees of £8,500, does the Minister think, in advising parents, that an English degree at Leeds Met is the same as an English degree at Oxford?
Vince Cable
I would not presume to make that kind of differentiation: it is their choice and they will both be considered by OFFA in due course. I would, however, single out Oxford for compliment, because of its ambitious programme for fee remission.
Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con)
Although I am irrepressibly optimistic about future growth in Hastings, I was stunned to find last week that, on the index of multiple deprivation, we had fallen from 31 to 19. May I therefore urge the Minister to give careful consideration to stimulating areas of the south-east that have particular deprivation problems, and not to concentrate all the tools from his toolbox on the north-east region?
Mr Prisk
That is an image that I will not pursue. I am well aware that coastal towns in particular often feel that they are at the end of the economic line. I would welcome the opportunity to talk to parliamentary colleagues about that to see how we can focus in on this important issue.
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
May I thank the Minister for the role that he has played and congratulate Exeter’s Labour-led council on its doggedness in ensuring that Exeter has a guaranteed place on the Devon and Cornwall LEP? Will he urge the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, the hon. Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey) to give urgent and positive attention to the bid for superfast broadband money, which has been submitted today and is supported by every Member of Parliament in Devon and Somerset?
Mr Prisk
We have issued a written statement today precisely on the new Heart of the South West local enterprise partnership for Devon and Somerset, as I think the right hon. Gentleman meant to say. I am grateful to him for his collaborative help on the scheme, which we are going to get under way. It is the next local enterprise partnership, and I shall certainly pass on his point to the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey).
Ivory Coast (Humanitarian Situation)
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for International Development if he will make a statement on the humanitarian situation in Ivory Coast.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for International Development (Mr Stephen O’Brien)
Whatever events are taking place elsewhere in the world, Britain has not forgotten the people of Ivory Coast or Liberia. The Government are deeply concerned about the ongoing serious political crisis in Ivory Coast, the risk of regional instability, and the humanitarian impact on those who have been displaced by the violence or otherwise affected. The latest information we have is that almost 500 lives are estimated to have been lost as a result. That is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State announced last Friday that Britain would provide a significant emergency aid package to help tens of thousands of people affected by fierce fighting and violence who are in urgent need in Ivory Coast and Liberia.
In Liberia, Britain’s support will provide food, shelter and basic services to 15,000 refugees; food, water and improved sanitation systems to 5,000 people living in border villages that have been overwhelmed by the refugee influx; and assistance for UNICEF’s work in ensuring that thousands of women and children affected by the crisis are protected from violence, abuse and exploitation. In Ivory Coast, Britain is planning to supply £8 million of aid to provide 25,000 displaced men, women and children with food for six months; tents for 15,000 people; and support to treat 10,000 children and adults for malnutrition, and help 3,000 west African nationals return to their home countries. Access to populations in conflicted areas remains extremely difficult, and fighting is hindering the humanitarian response. Our support is being delivered through trusted UN and NGO partners. In addition to our support, I hope and plan to meet leading NGOs working in Ivory Coast and Liberia shortly before I leave for Liberia to see for myself the facts on the ground.
Mark Lazarowicz
I thank the Minister for his answer. The humanitarian situation in Ivory Coast is clearly becoming more desperate by the day and, as he said, is increasingly affecting neighbouring countries in west Africa. As well as in Liberia, there are now refugees from Ivory Coast in Togo and Ghana. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees estimates that 1 million people have already fled their homes, with the potential for up to 500,000 more refugees to arrive in Liberia alone over the next two months.
The Opposition certainly welcome the emergency assistance that the UK has given so far, but in view of what is obviously a deteriorating situation, can the Minister say how much of the assistance announced by the UK has been able to reach the countries concerned? What efforts are being made to reach the more remote areas of Ivory Coast, where tens of thousands are reported to be trapped, with no access to humanitarian assistance or medical supplies? Can he give us an update on how the rest of the international community is responding, given that the two UN emergency appeals so far have been grossly underfunded?
What steps are the Government taking to continue to monitor the situation in Ivory Coast and the neighbouring states, and are we in a position to provide more emergency assistance immediately any such need is identified? What discussions are the Government having with our international partners, particularly in the European Union, to ensure that our assistance efforts are co-ordinated with those of other countries? Is any consideration being given to strengthening the UN peacekeeping presence in Ivory Coast? Can the Minister give the House an update on the steps being taken by the international community to resolve the underlying conflict and to ensure that the outgoing regime respects the result of last year’s presidential elections?
Mr O’Brien
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising those questions. He is absolutely right to focus on the extreme difficulty in accessing certain areas, particularly around Abidjan on the coast, where harassment, even of the international community, appears to be growing. In general, aid agencies have had some access to the north and the west of Côte d’Ivoire, though access to other parts of the country is changing on a daily basis. About 117,000 refugees have now crossed the border into Liberia, where access is not a significant issue at the moment.
We are seeking to produce the necessary humanitarian assistance, channelled through our tried and trusted UN and humanitarian non-governmental organisation partners. We have had direct contact with the NGOs. Indeed, officials in my Department are meeting representatives of Save the Children and Oxfam this morning, and the Foreign Secretary will meet representatives of leading British NGOs next week. He and the Minister of State will be meeting the president of the International Committee of the Red Cross. I am trying to organise a meeting with the NGOs that are leading the delivery of humanitarian responses in Côte d’Ivoire and Liberia before I leave for Liberia.
The hon. Gentleman asked about other diplomatic and political activity. There is an enormous amount of activity taking place within a number of bodies. The UK strongly supports the position taken by the Economic Community of West African States—ECOWAS—in seeking to co-ordinate supportive action in the United Nations and the European Union for ECOWAS. We also support what is going on in the African Union. It is important that the UN, which passed Security Council resolution 1975 last night, is now able to use that resolution as its authority to ensure that assistance is given within the context of finding the most peaceful means of allowing the duly elected President Ouattara to take his proper place in Côte d’Ivoire. In the meantime, we have to deal with the difficulties along the western side of the country, where the refugees are flowing into Liberia, as well as the serious humanitarian crisis in Côte d’Ivoire itself.
Initiatives are also being taken by the African Union in an effort to find a peaceful outcome to the crisis. It has been active in meeting and drawing up proposals, but, as we speak, a number of violent actions are taking place throughout Côte d’Ivoire, and the concern is that the peace processes are not as yet ahead of the actions on the ground. I compliment the African Union on its actions, however, and it is important that we recognise that the UN Security Council resolution does not impede the AU’s freedom to continue its process. The resolution neither competes with nor substitutes for that activity; it is a complementary process, and the sanctions imposed by the Security Council are designed to be persuasive rather than punitive, and will not cut across the AU process.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned funding. The $32.7 million UN appeal for Ivory Coast and for neighbouring countries, excluding Liberia, is currently fully funded, but an appeal revision is under way, reflecting the significant increase in humanitarian need. The $146 million UN appeal for Liberia is just 41% funded, and overall the response is reaching only a small proportion of those affected and displaced by the conflict. We have recently supported an uplift of 2,000 troops in the UN peacekeeping mission, the United Nations Operation in Côte d’Ivoire, and they will be coming through in the next few weeks.
Mr Speaker
Order. There is understandably a lot of interest in this subject, but there is very heavy pressure on time today, so single, short supplementary questions and brief replies from the Treasury Bench are vital.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
I commend the fact that the UK Government are in the vanguard of funding the relief effort for Liberia and Ivory Coast, but is it not important that we encourage the African Union not just to engage to try to find a peaceful solution to disputes such as the one in Côte d’Ivoire, but to develop the logistical capacity to do more in these humanitarian situations in the future? It is fine for the G7 countries to fund the effort, but there needs to be more capacity within Africa to sort out the challenges that Africa faces.
Mr O’Brien
My hon. Friend, who has great experience of these matters, raises an important point about capacity building behind what is indeed the good political intent and the increasingly consensual process of the African Union, which is making its best efforts to find a peaceful solution. I am sure that his comments will be widely heard. He raises an important point for the future; in the meantime, we have to tackle the immediate issues.
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
I welcome the Government’s humanitarian aid and the passage of Security Council resolution 1975. Does the Minister believe that there are enough UN troops on the ground? I am pleased to see beside him the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham), who has responsibility for Africa. Taking a political track through the EU and bilaterally, what is the UK doing to address the problem of the polarisation between the north and south of the country in the longer term?
Mr O’Brien
The hon. Gentleman, with his expert knowledge, is right to highlight those issues. He gives me the opportunity to make the important point that Her Majesty’s Government are working right across a number of Departments, not least through my hon. Friend the Minister with responsibility for Africa. The hon. Gentleman is also right about the north-south divide in the country, especially as we hear that troops loyal to President Ouattara are now only about 120 km north of the port of San Pedro, and may have captured Yamoussoukro, the political capital. It is vital to find a way of pulling together a political process that unites a riven faction that has caused desperate humanitarian crises in the past.
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
I welcome the Minister’s statement on the provision of humanitarian relief and I note the UN resolution, but does he accept that what is really needed is a political solution that ejects Laurent Gbagbo from the presidency? This is a man who has rebuffed his people, rebuffed the Economic Community of West African States and rebuffed the African Union and is rebuffing the United Nations. Does the Minister accept that in this situation we have not done enough and not moved fast enough, and that this Government should do more to make sure that there is a peaceful resolution?
Mr O’Brien
Of course a political and peaceful solution has to be the overriding and most desirable outcome, but we have to deal with the facts on the ground as we know them to be. Enormous initiatives are taking place across ECOWAS, the African Union, the European Union and the United Nations. I know that the Foreign Secretary spoke to President Ouattara on 21 March and discussed the need for firm action in the UN against those who obstruct the African Union’s attempts to broker a peaceful transfer of power, and on 25 March my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development spoke to President Ellen Johnson Sirleaf of Liberia to ensure that we address the humanitarian concerns developing in that country.
Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)
The Minister rightly mentioned the need for a political solution and the role of the African Union. In fact, ECOWAS has a well-deserved reputation for efficient delivery on the ground. Will the Minister tell us whether the Minister with responsibility for Africa has been in active discussion with ECOWAS so that we can engage further with it to deliver practical support for that political solution?
Mr O’Brien
I can. Indeed, I have just had it confirmed that my hon. Friend the Minister with responsibility for Africa met ECOWAS in Abuja three weeks ago and has continuing contacts with it, as do I in my travels through west Africa. It is a very important body to be developed to help these peaceful processes.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
I welcome the Government’s efforts. The Minister mentioned assistance to refugees. Will he expand on that and explain what assistance the Government are providing not only for refugees from Côte d’Ivoire in west Africa, but for refugees in this country as well?
Mr O’Brien
As I mentioned in my opening remarks, at this stage, when thousands of people are crossing the border westwards from Côte d’Ivoire to Liberia, the principal task is to provide shelter, potable water and improved sanitation systems, to ensure their survival and also the protection of thousands of children and women from violence, abuse and exploitation. It is equally important to recognise that helping west African and, indeed, other nationals to return home is part of the humanitarian response. My hon. Friend is right to highlight those issues.
Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)
Children in particular are innocent victims in this conflict. Will the Minister make it clear that we will not tolerate the increasing recruitment of children to take part in armed conflict?
Mr O’Brien
We do indeed hear reports that children are again being recruited to fight as soldiers, mainly to replace members of the armed forces loyal to former President Gbagbo who are now leaving the forces or switching sides. For the former president and those who surround him to imagine that it is ever legitimate even to contemplate recruiting anyone who is under age to fight for him is completely unacceptable. No doubt NGOs and others will document the incidence of such recruitment to ensure that evidence is available should it be required for the purpose of bringing those responsible before the International Criminal Court.
Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)
I welcome the humanitarian assistance, but experience in Africa suggests that very large refugee camps invariably become difficult and dangerous places, especially for the most vulnerable. May I urge Ministers to redouble their efforts to remove people’s reasons for leaving the country in the first place, and to try to prevent it if possible? May I also urge them to ensure that when assistance is provided for the camps, the needs of the most vulnerable—particularly the elderly, women and children—are given priority?
Mr O’Brien
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I know from my recent visit to the Dadaab refugee camp in Kenya, on the border with Somalia, that a large refugee camp is extremely difficult to manage. In Liberia, which I shall visit shortly, I hope to go to where the refugees are to see what the conditions are like and how they can best be managed in a humanitarian way. As for the refugees’ reasons for leaving the country, they are very plain: deep fear, deep instability, and the aggression that is being directed at their own people. All those factors are causing them to flee for their own safety. Clearly, the underlying aim must be to return Côte d’Ivoire to political stability and some semblance of democratic legitimacy.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
The situation in Ivory Coast is obviously terrible and tragic, and I welcome any aid and support that can be given, but a failure of politics has brought about that situation and there must be a political solution. Although there may be different interpretations of the election result on both sides, it must be recognised that there is considerable support for Gbagbo and Ouattara in their respective hinterlands, and any political solution must take that into account. Can the Minister confirm that working with the African Union and ECOWAS is the way forward, rather than allowing the country to descend into a terrible civil war?
Mr O’Brien
Like everyone else in the House, the hon. Gentleman naturally wishes to avoid any descent into civil war. The primary focus of our efforts must be on the African Union and ECOWAS, because a locally owned solution is much more likely to be both sustainable and peaceful and to take account of the relative strengths of the support currently available to each of the warring parties.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
As well as encouraging Ministers to persist in their efforts to resolve the conflict, may I have an assurance that they are keeping in touch with the small but not insignificant community here in order to enable their insights and information to be used to assist such a resolution?
Mr O’Brien
We must indeed maintain those links. As I have said, I am making every effort to meet all the relevant trusted NGOs and representatives of UN agencies here before I leave for Liberia, which is the closest that I shall be able to get to the scene of what is taking place. The right hon. Gentleman is right: any influence that can be brought to bear, not least by diasporic communities, will be of great importance to the future.
Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)
I welcome the Minister’s proposal to visit the region fairly soon. May I encourage him to go to the borders, where NGOs—particularly the Catholic Fund for Overseas Development—are involved in a special mission? They are deeply worried about the situation, and are anxious for the final solution and agreements that we reach, if indeed we are able to do so, to reflect the wishes of the people rather than what we may think is right for them.
Mr O’Brien
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his question. We are in touch with CAFOD, and it is part of the plan for my visit that I will go not just to Monrovia but up country to the borders so I can see for myself what is taking place. It is vital that we work with the grain of what people need locally, and that we are there to provide support rather than what might be regarded as a UK solution. On the contrary, it has to be a local Liberian and Côte d’Ivoirian solution to the problems the people there face.
Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab)
The economic sanctions imposed by the EU, the US and some African states are clearly having some effect, as I understand Mr Gbagbo is running out of cash. However, it has been reported that he continues to be supported by a couple of African leaders, including Robert Mugabe, who has reportedly been sending him arms. Does the Minister know whether these reports are true, and if so, does he agree that it is of paramount importance that democracy is allowed to flourish and is respected, and that people get out and vote in other elections in the region, in particular those starting in Nigeria this weekend?
Mr O’Brien
We have been hearing reports of that, too. However, a significant number of countries and leaders across Africa are deeply supportive of a peaceful political process through the African Union, ECOWAS and other institutions, not least the United Nations—and I might mention Ghana and Angola, to name just two countries. It would be totally unacceptable for any leader or country to seek to supply arms to either of the warring factions, and particularly former President Gbagbo. If that were to happen, it should receive the roundest criticism from all of us who are concerned and want a peaceful outcome to this very difficult situation.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
May I press the Minister to outline what contingency plans his Department, the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence are putting in place if we have to move quickly to evacuate British nationals and others from Ivory Coast?
Mr O’Brien
The hon. Gentleman raises an important issue. We believe that about 80 British citizens would be involved, and there are, indeed, contingency plans in place for their safe return if that becomes necessary.
Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)
I welcome the Government’s actions in providing humanitarian assistance to the region. Comparisons will inevitably be drawn with the situation in Libya. What assessment has been made of the number of civilian lives that have been lost in Ivory Coast, and what efforts are we and our international partners making to ensure we protect civilians from another brutal leader refusing to leave?
Mr O'Brien
The latest information we have is that about 500 civilians have so far lost their lives in Côte d’Ivoire, but that is very much an estimate—as the hon. Gentleman can imagine, reliable information is extremely hard to come by. All possible political and diplomatic processes are under way, and have been under way—we have been deeply engaged in trying to help and co-ordinate efforts to support that since the leadership crisis first arose in December. It is vital that we work down that track. Of course we do not want to have to take other measures, and it is extremely helpful that the UN Security Council passed resolution 1975 last night.
Prisons Competition
(13 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to make a statement.
The House will be aware that in 2009 my predecessor announced a competition for the management of five prisons: Her Majesty’s prisons at Birmingham, Buckley Hall in Rochdale, Doncaster and Wellingborough, and the new prison, currently called Featherstone 2, near Wolverhampton, which is due to open in 2012. I am now able to announce the results of that competition process.
Let me remind the House that these prisons were selected by the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) for a variety of reasons. Birmingham and Wellingborough are currently managed by the public sector and were chosen after being identified by the National Offender Management Service as performing poorly. Buckley Hall and Doncaster are establishments that have been previously competed for and their contract is due for renewal. Buckley Hall is currently managed by the public sector and Doncaster is currently managed by Serco.
During the preparations for the bid it became apparent that competition could not produce improvements at HMP Wellingborough without significant capital investment to secure its long-term viability. In the current financial climate, this is clearly not a tenable proposition, so I took the decision to remove it from the competition process. HMP Wellingborough will continue to be managed by the public sector, and will need to deliver approximately 10% efficiency savings, in line with other public sector prisons, over the next four years.
I am now able to announce the results of the four remaining prison competitions. HMP Birmingham will be run by G4S plc. HMP Buckley Hall will be run by HM Prison Service. HMP Doncaster will be run by Serco Group plc. Featherstone 2 will be run by G4S plc. The new contracts will be effective from October 2011 for the prisons at Birmingham, Buckley Hall and Doncaster, and from April 2012 for Featherstone 2. I would like to put on record my thanks to all the bidders for contributing to what has been a challenging contest, which will secure significant quality improvements and savings at all the establishments involved.
The Government are committed to delivering reform in our public services. This process shows that competition can deliver innovation, efficiency and better value for money for the taxpayer, but also that it can do so without compromising standards. Before the bids were evaluated for anything else, they needed to demonstrate their fundamental ability to provide safe and secure custodial services. I can confirm that over the spending review period the new contracts will deliver savings of over £21 million for the three existing prisons. In the same period, the new Featherstone 2 prison will be delivered at £31 million less than the costs originally approved by the previous Government. Cumulative savings over the lifetime of the contracts for the three existing prisons are a very impressive £216 million.
But public protection is not just about how we manage prisons in order to punish people. It is also about how we achieve genuine and long-lasting reductions in crime by cutting reoffending. I am therefore particularly pleased to be able to announce that, for the first time, the contract award for HMP Doncaster will include an element of payment by results in reducing reoffending. Payment by results is central to our rehabilitation reform plans, because it means that we can concentrate on paying for what works to reduce reoffending. The current system funds services, but not outcomes. Providers of services face few consequences if what they offer does not succeed in cutting reoffending, and little reward if they do succeed in cutting reoffending. Payment by results looks to change this by rewarding performance against the outcomes specified in a contract. In the Green Paper I outlined plans to develop this policy further and commission at least six new pilots for payment by results. The contract for HMP Doncaster is an important first step towards fulfilling this commitment.
The new contract price for HMP Doncaster will in itself deliver significant annual savings. In addition, however, the introduction of payment by results means that 10% of the contract price will be payable only if the operator reduces the reconviction rates of offenders a year after they are discharged from the prison by five percentage points. If they achieve this, the contract will, of course, have significantly reduced crime, and for a cost of at least £1 million below what we currently pay. I regard this as a win-win approach. It translates to savings for the taxpayer, lower reoffending rates and a return for the service provider that improves their performance.
I know that Members on both sides of the House recognise the benefits of effective competition—at least I hope they still do. Today’s announcement shows it has a significant role to play in delivering value for money, better outcomes and broader reform. I encourage providers from any sector to rise to the challenge. The public are entitled to expect safety and security and better results to go hand in hand with efficiency and innovation. I commend this statement to the House.
Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)
I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of today’s statement, and I welcome its tenor and how he delivered it. He will be aware that our policy was and is based on what works, rather than dogma. During our time in government, nine new private sector prisons were provided and three new establishments had been opened and run by the public sector, and I recognise that they have played a successful role in our prison system. It is right that we began the market testing that he is reporting on today.
I wish to ask the Justice Secretary a number of questions arising from his statement. First, he refers to the fact that during the bid preparations it became apparent that competition could not produce improvements at HMP Wellingborough without significant capital investment, so may I ask him what plans he has for such investment at Wellingborough prison? How much will be invested, and over what period? Does he understand the frustration of hard-working prison officers and other staff working in public sector prisons that need capital investment when they are compared with prison officers and other staff in newly built or refurbished private prisons? Can he confirm that the decisions on the Birmingham and Doncaster prisons are no reflection on the hard work of prison officers and staff there?
May I echo the Justice Secretary’s comments about the importance of delivering efficiency, innovation and better value for money for the taxpayer without compromising standards? Indeed, he has referred to the £216 million that will be saved as a consequence of this process, which was begun by the Labour Government. Does he therefore accept that the savings he is now championing are actually the fruits of the previous Government’s attempts to improve the efficiency of the Prison Service? Can he confirm that he will reinvest that money in the Prison Service?
The Justice Secretary’s announcement on payment by results is interesting and welcome. He will be aware that we began piloting payment by results in Peterborough, where we were trying to reduce reoffending. However, that is a pilot scheme and we recognised that lessons would need to be learnt before any full roll-out. What lessons have already been learnt from the yet to be completed Peterborough pilot? Can he confirm that Doncaster is a pilot and he will wait to see the results before the approach is rolled out further? His statement referred to the criteria for payment by results. He will be aware that 20% of offenders reoffend within three months of leaving prison and that 43% do so within a year, so will he explain further the criteria by which he will judge “if the operator reduces the reconviction rates of offenders a year after they are discharged from the prison by five percentage points”?
Finally, I wish to ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman about the workers in the prisons that he listed. Staff at HMP Birmingham and HMP Doncaster will understandably be worried about their future in these uncertain times. Does he anticipate any redundancies as a result of his decision? Can he confirm to the House that public sector terms and conditions will be protected under Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations arrangements? In addition, he will doubtless have seen the newspaper reports of contingency planning by his Department to deal with any industrial action that might result from his announcement. We have read that troops have been put on alert. Will he confirm whether that is the case? May I ask what discussions he or his Prisons Minister have had with the Prison Officers Association and others who represent prison staff? Does he agree that it is crucial that he and/or his Prisons Minister should meet the appropriate representatives today and begin a dialogue to avoid the sort of speculation reported in the media from becoming a reality?
Mr Clarke
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, because I was interested to see whether the Labour party was in the position that I thought it was going to be in, and I am reassured by what he said. As he said, putting competition into the system in order to ensure the best standards at the lowest cost to the taxpayer is a continuous policy, and things have moved on an awful long way since I was Home Secretary 20 years ago, when privately managed prisons were a highly controversial subject. We got the first one under way at Wolds, but under Blairism the policy was taken a whole lot further, with all the private finance initiative prisons. As I readily acknowledge, the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) started this tendering process, which we have taken to what I believe to be this successful conclusion. It must be in the public interest and it must be right—I readily acknowledge what the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) just said—that we leave aside stale ideology and dogma, and instead look at what works and what produces the right solutions for the public.
We have problems with the building at HMP Wellingborough. It is not a terribly old building—as I recall, it is largely a 1960s construction—but we are under notice that something has to be done about it and it cannot just carry on as it is. The building is not going to be adequate for very much longer. We are considering what to do about HMP Wellingborough. Its staff are responding very well to the problems that they face, but I hope to be able to come back soon to announce what will happen at Wellingborough.
The contract for Birmingham prison is now going to G4S. I acknowledge that the staff at Birmingham have made considerable efforts and that they put in a good public sector bid as part of the tendering process, but the fact is that that process is objective and the private sector bid was just better, and somewhat less costly. On the right hon. Gentleman’s later comments, the National Offender Management Service will, of course, have high regard to the interests of the staff at Birmingham. A new prison is opening not far away, which may offer some opportunities, but we will give all the appropriate support and hope to avoid an unnecessary number of redundancies.
Payment by results was indeed initiated at Peterborough by the previous Government, and we strongly support that worthwhile experiment. The only political claim that I would make is that I believe the previous Government responded to the policies suggested by the then Conservative Opposition in advocating payment by results. We suffered the fate that often happens to Opposition parties—I hope that this will happen to the right hon. Gentleman, too—of putting forward good ideas which then get stolen by the Ministers in power. However, at least we are at one on this policy.
The Doncaster scheme is another pilot. For the first time, the prison operator is entering into having a payment by results element in the contract; the operator will get extra reward if it succeeds, but it will share the risk with the Government, and will lose if it does not succeed. Five percentage points is what has been negotiated—a somewhat impenetrable figure. It means five percentage points down from the current percentage, so an 8.3% reduction from the current reoffending rate would be required for the operator to be paid.
It is indeed true that we have undertaken contingency planning in case we get the wrong sort of reaction to today’s announcement, although of course we very much hope that we shall not, because industrial action will be no more in the interests of prison officers than it is in the interests of anyone else. Contingency planning for disorder in prisons has always been done, as it has to be. It has been done for as long as I can remember, although I think the previous Government suspended it when they reintroduced the criminal law making it illegal to strike in prisons. They carried out an experiment when they lifted the legal ban, but they had a very bad strike in 2007, and put it back again. We have been bringing the contingency planning up to date, but we very much hope that that is a mere precaution. In the interests of public order, we have to ensure that we are prepared in case anything goes wrong in a major prison, but we very much hope not to have to put any of this into effect. We have had discussions with the Prison Officers Association and we are open to further such discussions, and we hope to be able to answer its legitimate queries in any way that we can.
Mr Speaker
Order. I remind the House of the pressure on time and the consequent need for brevity.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
The Secretary of State’s announcement will be widely welcomed in Wellingborough. Is he aware that the POA there and the management worked tirelessly together, doing so against the national union policy, to come up with a bid that has driven down the cost to £19,000 per prisoner and has reduced the number of prison officers from 147 to 101? Could either the Secretary of State or a member of his team visit Wellingborough prison to see the improvements?
Mr Clarke
I join my hon. Friend in congratulating the staff at Wellingborough, because they face a difficult situation, given the uncertainties caused by the unsuitable and deteriorating buildings in which they are operating. They certainly have succeeded, and my hon. Friend the Prisons Minister says that he can certainly take up the invitation to visit to see what they have achieved. I hope that the uncertainties will be resolved as soon as possible, but obviously it is difficult to find money for a large capital programme, which is what Wellingborough really needs.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
As the Prisons Minister at the time the decision was made to undertake the market testing, I can confirm that we not only undertook the market testing but encouraged public sector bids. Now that those public sector bids have failed in Birmingham, could the Justice Secretary tell the House what will happen to the assets of Birmingham and Doncaster prisons? What is the cost of the TUPE arrangements? Will it be borne by the private sector contractor? If there are redundancies, will it be the Ministry of Justice that bears them?
Mr Clarke
The right hon. Gentleman was indeed involved in the competition process, so he cannot start protesting—however mildly—about the outcome. I assume that he contemplated that either the private or the public sector bids would win, and that is what has happened. The public sector has the contract at Buckley Hall and the private sector has the contract at Birmingham and the other prisons. Serco was already the contractor at Doncaster. To show how ideology is fading, the irony is that Buckley Hall, when it opened, was a private sector prison, but it has been in the public sector and this renewal of the contract has been won by the public sector again. The law on TUPE remains in place, but we are consulting on the wider implications on transfers of ownership from the public to the private sector. The outcome of this competition should be the kind of thing that the right hon. Gentleman was perfectly happy to contemplate when he was party to the decision in 2009.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
I welcome the Lord Chancellor’s decision to build reducing reoffending into the Doncaster contract, but will he assure us that he recognises that that will require the provider to work closely with a range of other organisations, and that they too increasingly need to be incentivised to reduce the reoffending that creates more victims of crime?
Mr Clarke
My right hon. Friend is right. There are two major voluntary parties with which the provider at Doncaster proposes to be in contact, but their names escape me—one is called Catch22 and the other is something else—and there will be local voluntary and charity groups subcontracted below them. Serco will manage the prison and will be the principal contractor, but the delivery that it hopes to achieve will be effected by subcontractors. I have emphasised to those who have attended seminars on this subject that I hope that the operator will deal responsibly with the small local contractors. Serco is entitled to use its bargaining power when negotiating with the representatives of Government to get the best deal it can, but I hope that it will not overdo it when dealing with smaller voluntary and charitable bodies that are also entitled to expect to boost their funds if they deliver the results required.
Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)
It is important to put on the record the fact that my constituents and staff at Buckley Hall prison in my constituency have been concerned about the process, but I am sure that they will appreciate the stability that should now be provided. The reason why I raise this matter is that, as the Secretary of State pointed out, there has been constant change at Buckley Hall prison, and I hope that this decision will provide some stability. May I have some assurance that the staff, who do an excellent job there, can now get on with that, and that there will be no redundancies at the prison?
Mr Clarke
I think I can give the assurances that the hon. Gentleman requires. As far as I am aware, the public sector bid did not contemplate any redundancies; I do not have that information at my fingertips, but I would be surprised if it did. The provider has won a contract, and it is now up to it to deliver that contract on the basis on which it was won; the provider cannot now backslide from what was offered. I do not think that that is likely to happen, and fortunately, the staff at Buckley Hall now have some welcome stability for the period of the contract.
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
I warmly welcome my right hon. and learned Friend’s statement, and I know that he and his ministerial colleagues have been to Peterborough. May I add my voice to the calls to consider the social impact project at Peterborough with a view to extending it across the private prison estate? It could have an impact on prisoner education and in reducing recidivism.
Mr Clarke
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, and I was immensely encouraged by what I saw on my visit to Peterborough. I have discussed Peterborough widely elsewhere, and there was tremendous enthusiasm for the social impact bond that raised the ethical investment that has gone in to the project and for the determination to deliver it on the part of the St Giles Trust, which is the partner, the YMCA and the other people who are involved. We are finding this enthusiasm reflected elsewhere, and I hope—Peterborough being another private sector prison—that public sector prisons will get equally keenly involved. There are people in the public sector prison service who wish to contract on such a basis. I hope that payment by results will take off, and social impact bonds are one model for raising important capital to get them under way.
Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)
I welcome the inclusion of reoffending rates in the Doncaster contract. Can the Secretary of State assure the House that Serco will not be allowed to cherry-pick which offenders it takes at Doncaster, so that it will be possible to make meaningful comparisons between that establishment and other institutions?
Mr Clarke
I think I can. A cohort will be allocated rather than some carefully selected group, so a positive result will reflect some move in reoffending rates, with the consequent reduction in the number of further crimes and victims. I give credit to Serco, because when I went to Doncaster I broached the subject slightly tentatively there, because we were already in a competition process and Serco could just have proceeded perfectly ordinarily on the basis it had already agreed for the tenders with the previous Government. Yet Serco was positively enthusiastic, and I think it sees the pilot as a way of finding out whether it can enter into more such arrangements elsewhere in the criminal justice system.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
I too welcome the statement from my right hon. and learned Friend. Further to the previous question, in view of the fact that prisoners move around the prison estate, what proportion of a prisoner’s sentence must have been served at HMP Doncaster for that prisoner’s record to be taken into account in the statistics?
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
The Secretary of State will be aware of the recent report on HMP Bronzefield, a privately run women’s prison. It found seven cases of self-harm per day, one woman who self-harmed 93 times in a month, and one woman who was kept in segregation for three years with very little human contact. Health care was shockingly poor, with no female GPs, and pharmacy services were tortuous and inconsistent. How on earth can it be for the public good to extend private sector prisons?
Mr Clarke
Her Majesty’s inspectorate of prisons does extremely valuable work and over the years has exposed things that can be praised or strongly criticised in both public and private sector prisons. If we look back over the years, we see that no rule and no measure can be produced that shows that either sector is overwhelmingly likely to produce praise while the other is overwhelmingly likely to produce criticism. We must look at the inspectorate’s reports, take them seriously and ensure that where there are serious problems they are addressed. In my opinion—with respect—it is extremely out of date to say that what is wrong in such a case is the fact that the prison is private, whereas when another prison is criticised it somehow does not matter so much because it is public. The whole point of contracting and competition is that one specifies the quality one wants and the right price for the taxpayer, and then the inspectorate system ensures that real failings are addressed—and at the same time, we sometimes have penalties in the contract if providers fail to deliver.
Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con)
I enormously welcome the statement by my right hon. and learned Friend. Given the cross-party support for what he has just announced, what plans does he have to continue the excellent policy of the previous Administration in market testing across the entire prison estate? Will payment by results contracts be extended across other prisons? Finally, will he consider agglomerating PBR contracts in prisons with probation trusts?
Mr Clarke
We are out to consultation at the moment on the Green Paper on sentencing in general and we floated in that the prospect, about which my hon. Friend rightly asks, of having a regular programme of competitive tendering throughout the prison system so that we can revisit quality and cost, in an organised way, gradually over the years. We have not finalised the form, but we will come back in due course once we have finished our consultations and responded, and we will answer his question about exactly what we want to do on that front. Probation trusts are equally involved, I hope, in the development of the payment by results policy. We are as anxious to see public sector bodies involved as private sector bodies. The best of the probation trusts seem to me, in my contact with them, to be quite enthusiastic about becoming involved in such a contracting process.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
The Secretary of State may consider that privatisation is no longer controversial within this House across certain parties, but it is deeply controversial among Prison Officers Association members. He should meet the POA as a matter of urgency, and should look well beyond TUPE for the protection of staff who are currently being made vulnerable by privatisation; otherwise I believe that there will be industrial conflict.
Mr Clarke
I have every respect for the hon. Gentleman’s opinions, in which he has always been consistent. He has always been an articulate advocate, and I almost welcome him as a voice from the past. I realise that the POA is rather stuck in its traditional attitudes towards this kind of thing, but I really hope that it will reflect on what is almost a universal view in this House that we are moving on to a proper, fair, competitive basis for deciding how best to run prisons and at what cost, without being so obsessed about whether they are private sector or the public sector. Of course, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt) and I will continue our close contact with the POA. We have had to have contingency plans in case anyone is so foolish as to start industrial action—but it is illegal to take industrial action. The sensible thing for people to do is to look at the tendering process and, if they are in the public sector, decide how their prisons can achieve a better score in future. They have won one this time, but it is up to them to put in the best bids as we develop the policy.
Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
I welcome the statement, and agree that there is consensus in the House about this. I see that three of the four contracts mentioned today are being awarded to the private sector. Could the Secretary of State please advise the House of the percentage of prisons in England and Wales that are currently run by the private sector?
Mr Clarke
The answer is 11%, and that is one of the many things that surprised me when I started in this office. When I was Home Secretary we introduced the first private prison, HMP Wolds, which was regarded as a flaming political issue—we had crossed the Rubicon and it was a dramatic change. One way in which Britain has modernised is that we have inherited a lot of private finance initiative-financed private prisons, and now we have this open tendering between the two sectors across the country.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
To underline his claim that prisons are well run, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman remind the House of the precise number of prisons that are free of the use of illegal drugs?
Mr Clarke
I would not like to guarantee that for any prison in the country. In far too many prisons drugs are, although more expensive, rather more readily available than in the outside world. That is a serious disgrace and I assure the hon. Gentleman that we are working very actively on our plans to begin with drug-free wings and then drug-free prisons. This issue has to be addressed, and people in the service are keen to do that. I hope to come back later this year—as soon as possible—with some announcement of progress on that front.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement. Can he confirm that armed forces personnel are being trained to be deployed to man prisons if the need arises?
Mr Clarke
Yes, and there always used to be military contingency plans, because Governments must have contingency plans for all kinds of disasters. Unfortunately, if people are so unwise as to take industrial action in prisons, the situation can rapidly become far worse than in a normal strike because we start getting disorder among the prisoners. We have updated those contingency plans, and the military are indeed involved, but I should make it clear that no one is contemplating a military takeover of any prison. The Prison Service and prison governors would still be in charge. None the less, it is only prudent to make sure that we have the military preparedness that could, but almost certainly would not, be required. It has not been required in living memory, because one begins by using management staff and other teams that have been drafted in. Only in extremis would one start using the military for perimeter guarding and that kind of thing.
Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
Following on from the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), when the Secretary of State meets prison officers will he give them a guarantee regarding TUPE? He seemed a little vague at the beginning. Will he give an assurance that TUPE arrangements will apply not only in the present circumstances but in the whole period of this Parliament if there are any further changes?
Mr Clarke
TUPE is part of the law of the country, but the hon. Gentleman probably knows that there is currently a consultation about TUPE-related agreements that have previously been in existence in relation to transfers from the public sector to the private sector. I am not anticipating the outcome of that consultation, which is why I gave the answer I did.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
Does the Secretary of State agree that localism is as important in the prison sector as anywhere else, and that there is a risk that if a very small number of very large conglomerates take over the running of all the private prisons, the voluntary sector, social enterprises and charities will be excluded from taking part in the exciting rehabilitation agenda that the Government are pursuing? How can he ensure that does not happen?
Mr Clarke
I agree that localism is extremely important in this field, and I think it will be preserved because of the process whereby major contractors subcontract to voluntary and charitable groups. The relevant voluntary and charitable groups are different from place to place, and some of them are quite local. The people who set up the arrangements in Peterborough dealt with a collection of voluntary and charitable bodies quite different from those dealt with by the people who negotiated the contract at Doncaster, because local services and local ideas for tackling reoffending are different. I very much hope that, as the hon. Gentleman says, we shall keep that quality of local enthusiasm and commitment when we rope voluntary, charitable and third sector people into tackling reoffending.
Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)
Will the Secretary of State tell the House how many contracts awarded to private sector contractors have been terminated due to poor performance?
Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con)
I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend is aware that not only Featherstone 2 but Featherstone and Brinsford are in my constituency. The latter two are excellent prisons because of the dedication and commitment of their prison staff. Can he assure me that the same levels of training and support offered to the prison officers at those two prisons will be offered to the staff at Featherstone 2?
Mr Clarke
That is provided for in the contract and I very much hope it will be the case. Like my hon. Friend, I have great optimism about the future of Featherstone 2. It is very good that we have that kind of investment coming on stream so that we can help to modernise the service in all possible ways. The proper training and support of staff is a key part of delivering the contract properly.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
I congratulate the Secretary of State on his statement, and I particularly welcome the savings to the taxpayer. Some would have argued in the past that they would lead to a lower- quality service, so can he tell us whether Her Majesty’s inspectorate of prisons has shown any differences in recent reports between the quality of private sector and public sector prisons?
Mr Clarke
As I have said, I do not think it is possible to draw general conclusions such as “private sector good, public sector bad”—or vice versa—in any area. The regime at the best private prisons is very good and is hard to match in the public sector, and the savings are very considerable and useful. Sections of the media are enjoying themselves by constantly accusing me of letting people out of prison, but as far as I am aware I have not let anyone out of prison. I rather prefer cutting the costs of running prisons to letting prisoners out, and we are cutting costs in an extremely sensible way that should raise quality and performance in the Prison Service.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
I strongly welcome the awarding of two of the prison contracts to Crawley-based G4S. Can the Secretary of State say how long the contracts are for, and what reviews of performance will take place throughout the contract and over which periods?
Mr Clarke
G4S has done very well in this particular round. It had some strong competitors, which will no doubt come back in future rounds when we arrange them. The contracts are for 14 years, but are reviewable after seven years so that performance can be checked at that stage. I wish G4S well in delivering the very strong bids that it put in.
Mr Speaker
I thank the Secretary of State and colleagues for their co-operation.
Business of the House
(13 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Young)
With permission, I should like to make a statement about the business for next week. The business for the week commencing 4 April will be:
Monday 4 April—Opposition Day (14th allotted day). There will be a debate entitled “Police Cuts” followed by a debate entitled “The Government’s Green Policy”. Both debates will arise on an Opposition motion.
Tuesday 5 April—General debate on Britain’s contribution to humanitarian relief and Libya, followed by a general debate on matters to be raised before the forthcoming Adjournment as nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.
Colleagues will wish to be reminded that the House will meet at 11.30 am on this day.
The business for the week commencing 25 April will include:
Monday 25 April—The House will not be sitting.
Tuesday 26 April—Second Reading of the Finance (No.3) Bill.
Wednesday 27 April—Opposition Day (15th allotted day). There will be a debate on an Opposition motion, subject to be announced, followed by a motion on section 5 of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993.
Thursday 28 April—Second Reading of the London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (Amendment) Bill.
The provisional business for the week commencing 2 May will include:
Monday 2 May—The House will not be sitting.
Tuesday 3 May—Consideration in Committee of the Finance (No.3) Bill (day 1).
I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 28 April 2011 will be:
Thursday 28 April 2011—A debate on Sudan.
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
I am grateful to the Leader of the House for that statement. First, may I join the House in offering our condolences to the hon. Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) on her tragic loss? We are all thinking of her.
The House has welcomed the two statements this week on Libya, and we saw the news overnight that the former Foreign Minister has fled to the United Kingdom. Will the Leader of the House tell us what plans he has to keep Members informed during the recess, and whether he will consider seeking the recall of Parliament should circumstances warrant it? May I also welcome the changes he has made in response to my request to extend topical questions to the Department for International Development and the Cabinet Office? After the failure of Ministers from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to clarify matters in oral questions, may we have a full debate on the spectacular incompetence that is the Government’s policy on higher education? The White Paper has still not appeared, and most of today’s students will probably graduate before it does so. What was clearly promised as the exception—universities charging students fees of £9,000 a year—has become the norm, because the Government are simply incapable of getting their policy and their sums right.
May I say how much we are looking forward to Monday’s debate, so that we have the chance to discuss the Government’s complete mishandling of police cuts? Local communities will be astonished to discover that police officers are to be taken off the streets to be put into offices so that they can cover the work of civilian staff who are losing their jobs, and will be surprised by the news that special constables could be offered Nectar points to boost recruitment. Yesterday, the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice was completely unable to answer a very simple question: will front-line police numbers fall? Perhaps his boss will be able to do so on Monday.
As for the greatest disaster of all—the NHS reforms—may we have a statement from the Prime Minister, now that we read in The Times that he is cutting the Health Secretary loose and taking personal control because he is worried that the plans will backfire. A Government source is quoted as saying:
“Are we doing this in one step or a number of steps? There’s no settled course.”
In other words, they do not have a clue.
May we have a debate on personal privacy and the serious and persistent problem of open microphones being attached to members of the Cabinet? Is it not unfair that at a time at which the Deputy Prime Minister is desperately trying to distance himself from the policies of his own Government, we should discover by those underhand means that in fact he agrees with the Prime Minister on everything? So concerned is he that we read that he has asked for good news initiatives with which he could be associated. Does that sound familiar? Perhaps he could be frogmarched to the nearest cashpoint to pay back the young people who will still lose their education maintenance allowance despite this week’s U-turn?
We also learn that, as the Lib Dems face catastrophe at the polls, there are plans for a total rethink of their image which, according to insiders, could
“even include changing the name and logo”.
What a stroke of genius, so may we have a statement from the Deputy Prime Minister on whether he has any plans to change the law on party names and symbols to permit that? It would be a great pity to lose the bird completely. What about a dodo or an albatross, although I am not entirely sure that it would fit on the ballot paper? As for that embarrassing party name, I can quite understand why some Lib Dems want to get rid of it, so why not change it to, say, “the Conservative party” and just get on with it ?
Finally, has the Leader of the House seen the Private Member’s Bill that is due to be debated tomorrow that would abolish our much-loved national park authorities? Having seen off the Bill to cut the minimum wage, and after helping me to overturn Westminster’s barmy byelaw, the right hon. Gentleman is now on a hat-trick, so will he assure the House that he will oppose that measure too, and will he write about it in his blog? The House will have noticed with great sadness that he has not blogged since I began to read it. He once modestly wrote that he is just the B movie after Prime Minister’s questions, so may I assure him that if he begins again we will try to make a star of him yet? On that note, I wish the right hon. Gentleman, the Deputy Leader of the House, you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and all Members a very happy Easter.
Sir George Young
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his kind words about my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) which were appreciated by Members from all parts of the House. It was a tragedy that took place after she had taken part in a debate on coastguards and marine safety. On recall, as I have said previously, we will keep the position under active consideration. The right hon. Gentleman will know that at the request of a Minister, Mr Speaker can recall Parliament. We will do so if circumstances require it.
On the defection of the Libyan Foreign Minister, there will be an opportunity on Tuesday morning in the debate on humanitarian aid and Libya to update the House. We want to encourage those around Gaddafi to abandon him, and we welcome the further defection, which we hope will allow political transition and real reform to take place. Moussa Koussa is one of the most senior members of the Gaddafi regime, and the Foreign Secretary has regularly been in touch with him, most recently last Friday.
On policing, we welcome the fact that there is a debate on that subject next Monday in Opposition time. It remains our view that the police can make the necessary savings while protecting front-line services and prioritising the visibility and availability of policing. On health, the one change that the Government will not make is the change advocated by the right hon. Gentleman’s party to reduce resources for the NHS—cuts that would plunge the NHS into crisis, put at risk cancer drug funds, thousands more health visitors and better support for carers, to which we are all committed.
The right hon. Gentleman took a sideswipe at the two previous Prime Ministers. I am surprised that he wanted to refresh our memory of the Gillian Duffy incident, and the embarrassment of the previous Prime Minister. He then took a side swipe at Tony Blair and his cashpoint policy. The distancing of the Labour party from its history is well under way.
I am happy to say that the Deputy Prime Minister will answer questions at the Dispatch Box on Tuesday. We have extended the length of time for questions to the Deputy Prime Minister to 40 minutes, which will give him ample time to sweep away the somewhat frivolous suggestions that we have just heard from the right hon. Gentleman. Finally, may I reassure the right hon. Gentleman that we will block the Bill to which he referred? We will all miss during the month of April the refreshing contributions that he makes every Thursday morning.
David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend update the House on the situation in Parliament square before an event at the end of April?
Sir George Young
I welcome my hon. Friend’s interest. There may be an opportunity later today in the remaining stages of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill to raise the issue. As he knows, we are changing the law so that in future police will have powers to remove those encampments. In the meantime, we welcome what the Greater London authority has done to remove the encampments on the green. We welcome the enforcement action taken by Westminster city council to deal with the encampments on the pavement, and further discussions are under way between the police and the relevant authorities to make sure that Parliament square is in a fit and proper condition for the royal wedding.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
The House will be shocked to learn that yesterday, during an evidence hearing held by the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs told the Committee that she planned to restart the sale of Forestry Commission land. Will the Leader of the House update us as to why we have had yet another U-turn by the most hapless Secretary of State in Cabinet?
Sir George Young
We inherited an ongoing programme of sales of Forestry Commission land from the previous Government. All new sales of forestry land were halted on 17 February. We will decide on the level of any future sales and the conditions to be attached, but only once we have received advice from the independent panel that we recently set up.
Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend find time to allow the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), who has responsibility for shipping, to make an oral statement in the Chamber at the conclusion of the current consultation on plans to modernise the coastguard service? My right hon. Friend will understand that the future of the UK coastguard is of great concern to Members from all nine parties represented in this House and across the UK. During two debates in Westminster Hall, 33 Members were able to speak, but many more were unable to do so because of a shortage of allotted time.
Sir George Young
I welcome my hon. Friend’s interest in this important subject. She will know that we have extended the consultation period. The Minister responsible has said that the Government will not give their response to the consultation until the Transport Committee, which is looking at the matter, has reported on it. She will know that this is a genuine consultation. We have already received 1,200 responses and look forward to getting more. The proposals will hopefully deliver a better joined-up and more resilient search and rescue co-ordination service.
Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
The regeneration of Barnsley town centre depends on Barnsley council being able to access the assets currently owned by Yorkshire Forward, the now defunct regional development agency, and yet the Government are determined to flog them off. May we have a debate on this crucial issue, which is important to communities up and down the country?
Sir George Young
I understand the hon. Lady’s concern. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills is aware of the issue and is looking at the individual assets concerned to see whether he can come to a speedy decision. I will pass on her renewed concern to him and ask him to write to her.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
On the subject of distancing by parties, has the Leader of the House had any request to debate the implications of a party dropping the word “New” from its full e-mail addresses?
Sir George Young
I had not caught up with that piece of information. We look forward to seeing whether there are any further transformations as the Labour party tries to regain popularity with the public outside.
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)
The Government were required by law to publish the child poverty strategy and appoint a commission to scrutinise it by midnight tonight. Will the Leader of the House explain the delay, when the strategy will be published and how it feels to be a law-breaker?
Sir George Young
I am grateful to the hon. Lady. This subject has been raised in previous business questions. The answer is that the Government will launch the child poverty strategy before the House rises for the Easter recess. That statement will address the specific point, which she raised, of how the Government intend to proceed on the issue of legality on which she has just touched.
Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)
When asked, the majority of people in this country apparently describe themselves as middle class, yet there are concerns that they are being discriminated against positively. May we have a debate on the hard-pressed, squeezed middle class?
Sir George Young
I hope that I can identify myself with that part of the population. There will be an opportunity to look at that issue during the Second Reading of the Finance Bill. My hon. Friend will know that a wide range of measures have been introduced that I think will be welcomed by the middle class, and indeed by all classes, particularly some of the steps we have taken to promote growth. The freeze on council tax will be welcomed by upper, middle and lower classes, and indeed by every member of this society.
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
Earlier this month there was a very disappointing announcement that the Cardiff to Swansea rail line would not be electrified by the Government, a decision that was predicated on what was called an unfavourable business case. In a written answer on 7 March, the Minister of State, Department for Transport, the right hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs Villiers) said that she would deposit the business case in the Library. It is yet to be deposited. May we have a debate in Government time on the need for observance of the ministerial code and timely responses from the Government?
Sir George Young
I was in the House when my right hon. Friend the Minister made that statement, which was warmly received. I recall that no extra time would be saved by the further electrification to which the hon. Gentleman refers, but I will of course pass on his request for more information to my right hon. Friend and see that it is promptly delivered.
Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con)
My right hon. Friend will be well aware of my view, which is shared by many Members across the House, that the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority is an overly expensive and bureaucratic organisation. Will he confirm that I am right to be dismayed, having heard last week that in the near future it will preside over not only our salaries, but our pensions, with the inherent and astronomical costs that that will entail?
Sir George Young
My hon. Friend may know that under the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010, IPSA will assume responsibility not only for allowances, but for pay and pensions. That is enshrined in statute. We believe that it makes sense to have one body responsible for allowances, pay and pensions, rather than divided responsibilities, which we have at the moment.
John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
The Leader of the House may be aware that the funding axe is hovering over certain long-standing national health service surveys that provide us all with information about public perceptions. That might not be unconnected with the fact that they show public satisfaction levels to be at an all-time high, roughly double or triple what they were in 1997. I had an Adjournment debate about that yesterday in Westminster Hall, but the answers were not forthcoming, so may we have a statement from the Dispatch Box from the Secretary of State for Health?
Sir George Young
As the hon. Gentleman has said, he has just had an Adjournment debate, and I am not sure that it would make sense immediately after that to repeat it at the Dispatch Box. I will pass on his concern to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and see if there is any way he can add to the information he was asked for in the debate.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Yesterday, I made some comments in the House for which I must unreservedly apologise to the Leader of the House, because I gave the impression that he had done a good job and I understand that that has affected his career prospects. To make up for that, would he make a statement next week about having another question time in the House? Would it not be a good idea to have the second most powerful Minister here to answer questions: the Chief Whip?
Sir George Young
I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s earlier comments. I think that my career has peaked, so he need not be too worried about jeopardising my future. I am not sure that there is time in the congested programme for ministerial questions to squeeze in my right hon. Friend the Chief Whip, but his door is ever open, as my hon. Friend knows, and he is always particularly pleased to see him.
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
Last week’s Budget did little to help hard-working people up and down the country. More than 55,000 families in Liverpool will pay on average an extra £450 in VAT this year. With inflation at 4.4%, food and energy bills rising rapidly, but wages staying flat, household budgets are really being squeezed. May we please have an urgent debate on falling standards of living and the Government’s lamentable response to the problem?
Sir George Young
The short answer is no. We have just had a four-day debate on the Budget, during which there was ample opportunity to make those points. Nonetheless, there will be the Second Reading of the Finance Bill when we return after Easter, during which the hon. Lady will have an opportunity to share her concerns and have them addressed by one of my hon. Friends.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Given the news that the banks in the Republic of Ireland are likely to need yet another €30 billion bail-out, may we please have a statement on the impact this will have on this country and, in particular, confirmation that we will not be adding to our existing liability under the Loans to Ireland Act 2010?
Sir George Young
As my hon. Friend knows, the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a statement earlier this year outlining the assistance we are giving to Ireland. Ireland is carrying out stress tests on its major banks. As I know from my time as a Treasury Minister, it is not always helpful to comment from the Dispatch Box on the stability or otherwise of other countries. He will understand if I do not comment any further.
Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
Last week I asked the Leader of the House how we could get an apology from his Cabinet colleague, Baroness Warsi, over the claim she made last year that the Conservatives failed to win an overall majority at the general election because of electoral fraud, predominantly in the Asian community. That accusation was completely refuted last month by the Electoral Commission, which reported that there had been only two prosecutions and one conviction. The Leader of the House generously replied last week that
“I am sure she will have heard what the right hon. Gentleman has said and will want to respond to it in the appropriate way.”—[Official Report, 24 March 2011; Vol. 525, c. 1103.]
I am sure that he will be shocked to hear that I have heard nothing from her. Will he persuade his colleague to provide an answer?
Sir George Young
I repeat what I said last week: I am sure that my noble Friend will have heard what the right hon. Gentleman has just said. I will make renewed attempts to ensure that he gets a reply to the issues he has raised.
James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con)
May we have a debate about the continued problem of antisocial behaviour in many of our communities? In particular, may we have a debate about the interesting proposals put forward by Baroness Newlove, which outline how communities in places like my constituency can take more control over the problem of combating antisocial behaviour?
Sir George Young
I welcome the Newlove report, which was published yesterday. My hon. Friend might have an opportunity later today in proceedings on the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill—perhaps on Third Reading—to develop his points, but we look to act upon Baroness Newlove’s imaginative recommendations to encourage local agencies and central Government to change and make a real difference to local communities.
Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
Yesterday, Members from all parts of the House received an e-mail from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury with some helpful information about the financial services compensation scheme. The covering note, however, states:
“I hope you will find this helpful in replying to queries…. Please use this letter in responding to any constituent correspondence”
on the subject. Does this mean that specific queries will be ignored by the Treasury? Will the Leader of the House ensure that specific queries on that very important subject are responded to?
Sir George Young
My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury was genuinely trying to assist the House, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman recognises, by letting Members have a response to a question that is asked quite frequently. Of course, it remains the case that any specific requests for more details or information will get prompt consideration from my hon. Friend.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
May we have a debate about the daft decision by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to force the PAYE system on to town and parish councils?
Sir George Young
I was not aware that that was in the pipeline. There will be an opportunity on Second Reading of the Finance Bill to raise the matter, but in the meantime I will do so with my hon. Friends at the Treasury in order to find out what is going on.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
The Read it Together scheme in Hull, which has 200 volunteers working with six or seven children each in 69 schools in the city, has been going for 35 years and is a great success story. All its funding has been cut, however, because of the cut in funding from national Government to Hull city council. May we have a debate about why voluntary sector groups in some of the poorest areas in the country are being let down by the funding from councils and from the coalition Government, especially in areas where there is no private sector involvement?
Sir George Young
I welcome the resources of those who run the Read it Together scheme. We had a debate in February about local government finance, and it is up to Hull city council to decide how best to allocate resources to the scheme. I hope that the council will take those decisions sensibly and sensitively and do what other local authorities have done by protecting worthwhile schemes such as the one that the hon. Lady mentions.
Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)
I am sure that my right hon. Friend will have seen the article in the Daily Express yesterday about the large proportion of the year when the House does not sit. May we have a debate about the parliamentary timetable and the ability of Members to hold the Government to account?
Sir George Young
I did indeed see the article, and of course my hon. Friend will know that when the House is not sitting it does not mean that MPs are not working; there is work to be done in the constituencies. We have made some significant changes to the way in which we organise the parliamentary calendar, and yesterday we actually added four days to the sitting calendar. This year we are going to sit longer than last year and, indeed, the year before, so any implication that we are working less hard is wholly unfounded.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Given the opaque answer on coastguards provided to the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton), may we have a debate about the coastguards, either in Government time or Backbench Business Committee time, before the relevant consultation ends? That would allow the Government to show how seriously they take our maritime insurance policy, namely the coastguards, especially as the two debates in Westminster Hall were inadequate in both time and structure.
Sir George Young
I am not sure that those two debates in Westminster Hall were inadequate; they enabled a large number of people to speak. I have no plans to hold another debate in Government time, but as I said earlier the Transport Committee is conducting an inquiry into the matter, and that might be an opportunity for the hon. Gentleman to make any points that he feels have not already been made.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
As no nuclear power station has ever been built on time or on budget, is there not an urgent need to extend the review of nuclear power in this country to include the cost, the timetable and the danger of an attack from a terrorist group—and in order to give the Deputy Prime Minister the opportunity to explain to the House his view that the fallout from Fukushima, both radioactive and political, may make our nuclear plans unaffordable?
Sir George Young
It remains the Government’s policy that nuclear has a key role to play in future power supply. We are doing a review under Dr Weightman to see whether there any lessons to be learned from what has happened in Japan, but there was enough delay to the matter under the previous Government, and we do not propose to add to that any more.
Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con)
In south Leamington Spa, an employment club has been set up in the Brunswick healthy living centre, and it is proving successful at getting people back into work. It costs just £27 an hour to run and has so far helped more than 100 people, of whom 18 are now in employment again. Will the Leader of the House provide Government time for a debate about measures to boost employment and the use of such job clubs elsewhere?
Sir George Young
I welcome what my hon. Friend says about the work club in his constituency. He will know that, in the Budget the week before last, the Chancellor included additional funding for work clubs—for precisely the reason that my hon. Friend gives. They are effective ways of helping those who are out of work to find work; they give support to them in making contacts, finding opportunities and helping with CVs; and we very much want to continue our support for those worthwhile organisations.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Given the situation in Libya, it seems unlikely that the House will not be recalled during the three-week recess, and I hope that the Leader of the House will reaffirm what he said a few moments ago. Can the House be informed, however, about the position of Libya’s former Foreign Minister, who undoubtedly had a great deal of involvement with terrorism? Should not the House be told as much information as possible about Lockerbie? As the person who effected it first and foremost, he would have the maximum amount of information, which I hope he would be willing to reveal to the British authorities.
Sir George Young
As I said in response to the shadow Leader of the House, we will keep under review the need to recall the House. We have kept the House in the picture on Libya, with regular statements and debates in Government time, and there will be another opportunity on Tuesday to address the situation there. I believe that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development, who will open that debate, will update the House on the position, and if the hon. Gentleman is here on Tuesday, he may have an opportunity to speak in the debate and to develop the point that he has just made.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
A number of small to medium-sized enterprises in my constituency, Alcon, Forensic Pathways and Aspire to name just three, have raised concerns about the excessive bureaucracy that they have faced in the past, so will my right hon. Friend arrange for a debate about the reduction of bureaucracy for SMEs, so that we can learn more about what the Government propose to do to help such businesses to do more business?
Sir George Young
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who will know that the issue was covered to some extent in our debate about the Budget. We want SMEs to be the drivers of growth in this country, and there was a deregulation package in the Budget. We have extended the small business rate relief holiday, increased the SME rate for research and development tax credits and created enterprise zones, so I think that the Government are doing a lot to encourage SMEs to grow and develop.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
I declare my interest as a former college principal.
I was astounded to hear the Secretary of State for Education say on Monday that further education colleges, which the majority of post-16 students attend,
“do not have cafeterias or kitchens in place.”—[Official Report, 28 March 2011; Vol. 526, c. 59.]
Will the Leader of the House arrange for the Secretary of State to come to the House and put the record straight by apologising to students, staff and governors in colleges?
Sir George Young
I will relay those remarks to my right hon. Friend. I think he said “some” do not have those facilities, rather than “all”, but I will certainly relay the hon. Gentleman’s concern. As someone with an FE college in his constituency, I know that there was considerable confusion about the capital programme under the previous Government, and we are now busy trying to recover from that.
Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con)
Businesses in my constituency and, indeed, the New Anglia local enterprise partnership are excited by the Chancellor’s announcement of enterprise zones, which my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has just mentioned. Will he arrange for a debate in the House about the effect that such zones will have on the local economies of the areas where they go and, indeed, on the national economy?
Sir George Young
I am slightly surprised that the Opposition have not chosen enterprise zones as the subject for a debate on Monday. In view of the large number of Labour MPs who want one in their constituency, it would have been a popular subject for the Opposition to have chosen, but my hon. Friends in the Treasury will have noted the substantive bid that my hon. Friend has just made.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
I gather that after last week’s business questions, when the issue of the child poverty strategy was raised, there was then a frantic ring-round of child poverty campaign groups telling them that the strategy would be launched next Tuesday—5 April. Can the Leader of the House tell us why he did not think it fit to tell MPs that that was going to happen, and why it is being left until the last day before the recess when we are on a one-line Whip and not many MPs will be around? What is he trying to hide?
Sir George Young
Next Tuesday is a sitting day, and it seems an appropriate day on which to make a statement. I hope that the hon. Lady is not implying that I misled the House in any way in last week’s business statement, when I announced the business that I knew was forthcoming, as I have done this week. In response to an earlier question from the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson), I indicated that before the Easter recess the Government would make a statement on the child poverty strategy and deal with the legal situation that she raised with me.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
Can consideration be given to a debate on the criteria that mortgage lenders use to approve loans, particularly with respect to those who carry out community work? I have an example in my constituency of a foster carer whose legitimate income from community work is being denied by a major UK mortgage provider. I would very much welcome consideration of that.
Sir George Young
I am sorry to hear of the problems that confront my hon. Friend’s constituent. This might be an appropriate subject for an Adjournment debate, or he might like to raise it with Treasury Ministers to see whether they could pursue it with the mortgage lender to which he referred.
Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)
Can we have an early debate on the contradictions between Government Departments’ policies? In particular, can he get the Secretary of State for Education to come here to explain why his Department, in connivance with the free schools organisation, E-ACT, has conspired with the Conservative-Liberal leadership of Redbridge council to evict, without consultation, elderly groups, ethnic minority groups, young people’s groups and disabled groups from a community centre in my borough without any right of scrutiny or recall?
Sir George Young
I will share the hon. Gentleman's concerns with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. I say to the hon. Gentleman, however, that there is a real appetite in many parts of London for a free school. The legislation has been warmly welcomed and a number of parents are very anxious that this initiative should be developed with great speed.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
In my constituency, farmers and residents are struggling to make known their views about the plans for reviewing the Severn estuary flood arrangements through the Environment Agency. There is concern about the need to listen to local views. May we therefore have a debate about the accountability mechanism for the Environment Agency, to encourage it to embrace a localism agenda?
Sir George Young
I am sure that the Environment Agency will have heard what my hon. Friend has said. It very much wants to work with community groups. I do not know whether he has flood wardens or flood action groups in his constituency, but the Environment Agency would very much like to liaise with them as it develops its plans and orders its priorities. I will bring his remarks to the attention of the EA.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Given the bombshell in the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s Budget speech about sweeping away planning protections, our green spaces and green belt are now vulnerable to any developer. Can we have an urgent debate on this, because middle-class folk, and all classes, are very concerned about the threat to our green spaces and our green belt? We have the local elections on 5 May. Surely the Government should come clean on green belt and green space protection before people vote in those elections.
Sir George Young
Green belt is specifically protected, so the hon. Gentleman should not have any concern about that. The rest of this issue lies in the context of the Localism Bill and the national planning strategy, and the hon. Gentleman should wait and see how the policy is developed in July.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
Last year, we had the second highest recorded level of anti-Semitic incidents, and there is a strong feeling in the Jewish community that anti-Semitism is on the rise. Clearly, we as MPs have a right and a duty to set an example, but Cabinet Ministers have an even greater responsibility. Can the Leader of the House remind his right hon. Friends that it is unacceptable to accuse other colleagues of being Nazis or using Goebbels-type tactics in the media?
Sir George Young
Yes, I agree that not only Cabinet Ministers but every Member of the House should be very careful about the language that they use. I will certainly draw my hon. Friend’s remarks to the attention of my fellow Ministers. I am sure that you, Mr Deputy Speaker, will do all you can to ensure that no inappropriate remarks are made in this Chamber.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
This week at the Ebbw Vale metallurgical society, I met the top brass from the Tata steel company. They are very concerned about the Chancellor’s carbon floor price proposals, which impose massive unilateral costs on the UK steel industry—costs that no other European country will enforce. Can we have a statement from the Energy Secretary and a debate on this issue?
Sir George Young
As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Administration are committed to moving towards a less carbon-intensive future. At Business, Innovation and Skills questions earlier—he may have been in his place—my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that he would have a good look at those who are intensive users of energy to see whether the problem that the hon. Gentleman has described might be overcome.
Points of Order
(13 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Two worrying claims have been made about our troops in Afghanistan. One of those was today’s report from the National Audit Office, which suggests that two out of three deliveries of vital equipment are not arriving in time. Another claim made is that bullet-proof vests are not being supplied, in order to provide funds for the alternative vote referendum. Have you news of any statement to the House that can point out the seriousness of the first claim and the stupidity of the second?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
There is no indication of such a statement being made. I know that the hon. Gentleman recognises that that is not a point of order, but it has certainly gone on the record, and I am sure that the Secretary of State for Defence will have taken notice.
Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In September last year, the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority wrote to all honourable colleagues about employer liability insurance, telling us that it was going to expire today. Last week, it issued its new guidelines. Included in those guidelines was section 10.8, which tells us that we can claim for employer’s liability insurance and public liability insurance. Today, and in some cases yesterday, some Members but not all Members—I did not receive it—were sent an e-mail saying:
“Please find attached your Employer’s Liability Insurance certificate to be displayed”.
This is not only causing concern and additional work to our staff, who are rigorously ensuring that we are properly protected, but will waste public money. Will you, Mr Deputy Speaker, perhaps in liaison with the Leader of the House and his shadow, ensure that proper guidance is issued urgently to MPs so that what is actually the case is very clear?
Mr Deputy Speaker
That is not a point of order, but the hon. Gentleman has raised a very important point. Perhaps the Leader of the House would like to make a comment—it is up to him.
The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Young)
I am sorry if the hon. Gentleman has not received the e-mail, which I certainly received yesterday, and which had attached the certificate to be pinned up in my office and all the relevant offices. I will find out from IPSA what has gone on.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. May I raise the fact that there seems to be no consultation with Members of Parliament on the closure of the Members’ services centre in Portcullis House? It came as a total surprise to me when a member of staff said that it is all to be closed down imminently. If that is the case, it is disgraceful that Members of this House have not been consulted properly.
Mr Deputy Speaker
That is not a point of order, but it is a matter for the House of Commons Commission, and I am sure that the hon. Gentleman’s voice will have been heard.
Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill
(13 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
17:00 - The House divided: - Ayes: 8 / Noes: 280 - Question accordingly negatived.
17:13 - The House divided: - Ayes: 158 / Noes: 276 - Question accordingly negatived.
17:59 - The House divided: - Ayes: 274 / Noes: 161 - Question accordingly agreed to.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
The new clause addresses the point about the local setting of licensing fees that was debated in the Public Bill Committee. I welcome the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) to the Opposition Front Bench. She will recall the discussions that we had on this point in Committee. I welcome other Members who sat on the Committee, and other hon. Members who are present.
In my response to the consultation on the Bill, I said that we intended
“to enable licensing authorities to set licensing fees based on full cost recovery”.
Since then, as I confirmed in Committee, I have been working with colleagues across Government to ensure that we achieve that aim in a way that is fair to all sides. I know that fee payers will be concerned about a change that is likely to see fee income rise overall. However, the fact is that licensing fees have not been increased, even for inflation, since the Licensing Act 2003 came into force in 2005.
The new clause does not represent a change of principle. The current fees are supposed to cover the legitimate costs of licensing authorities in discharging their functions under the 2003 Act. However, there has been widespread agreement for some time that they do not achieve that. The previous Government recognised the problem, and promised an independent review of their proposed fees as early as 2004. The independent panel published its report, known as the Elton report, in December 2006. The recommendations included an increase in fees, but no action was taken. Therefore, the question for this Government is not whether the situation needs to be addressed, but how best to address it.
We could set the fees centrally again, which would have the advantage of providing consistency for fee payers. However, I have chosen to move to set fees locally because I consider that it may be difficult to achieve a close approximation to full cost recovery with nationally set fees. Different areas do not have the same costs, and it is unavoidable that a blanket fee level would leave some councils with a deficit or provide an excessive income to others. No system is ideal, but as a matter of principle, council tax payers in areas with higher costs should not subsidise the administration of the licensing regime, and fee payers in lower-cost areas should not fund wider council activities.
Fee payers should be reassured that locally set fees will not mean that licensing authorities can set whatever fees they like. First, they will only set the level of the fee. They will not be permitted to design new fees or their own fee structure; nor will they be able to use licensing fees as an income stream. The only basis on which they will be able to set fees is to recover their costs in discharging their functions under the 2003 Act. I will issue guidance to local authorities on the setting of fees, including statutory guidance under section 182 of the 2003 Act. To ensure that costs are kept to appropriate levels, that will include guidance on the principles of good regulation, including risk-based and targeted inspection.
To provide further reassurance to fee payers, there will be a nationally set cap on fee levels. Under the new clause, that is provided for by the ability of the Secretary of State to apply constraints to the licensing authority’s ability to set fees. I intend that the level of the cap will be set in regulations after consultation. The consultation will contain a detailed impact assessment of the proposal.
In short, this measure is an important step towards ensuring that the Licensing Act 2003 works as it was intended to work, with fees fully funding licensing authorities’ administration of the Act.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
As the Minister pointed out, we debated this issue in the Public Bill Committee on the basis of an Opposition amendment. I am pleased, because he has obviously listened carefully to the arguments that we made. The Opposition were clearly championing the localism agenda, which I know is close to the heart of the coalition Government, so I am pleased that they have decided, at this late stage, to bring forward an amendment of their own on the issue.
We have heard from local government that since 2005, when the regulations of the Licensing Act 2003 were implemented, the licensing system has cost council tax payers more than £100 million more than was anticipated because of the centrally set fee structure. As the Minister said, that structure does not allowing licensing authorities to set cost-neutral local charges.
As the Minister pointed out, the Government had indicated that they were considering giving licensing authorities the power to set licensing fees based on full cost recovery. I am sure that there has been considerable interdepartmental wrangling on this issue, and that that is why the new clause has been brought forward rather late in the day on Report. A number of trade organisations, the Local Government Association and others were concerned to see the original clause in the Bill, so no doubt they will be pleased to see this new clause. However, I wish to raise a number issues with the Minister.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
It is a great pleasure to continue this reunion event of the Public Bill Committee into a second day, and to follow the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), particularly as I had the great pleasure of being able to read some of her words in the briefings that I, too, received. That helped me to follow some of the details. I do not wish to detain the House for long in speaking to the new clause.
First, I should put it on record that I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association, and in that capacity I am delighted to be able to welcome this change, for which the LGA has pressed for a very long time. Not for the first time, I extend my thanks to the Minister for taking this and many other issues seriously, and for the time that he has taken to have meetings outside the Bill Committee structure on a range of issues.
It is right that the system should not impose a cost on councils. The fundamental problem with the current system is that it has been a huge drain on council resources at a time when councils have many other things to do and many other calls on the public purse. Rather unusually, I am not going to blame the previous Government and say that they got it wrong on purpose. I believe that the fees were simply wrongly set, and that the required updates have not been made. I do not think the intention was to make councils pay, but that was how it evolved.
It is important that we move from the previous Government’s approach of having things set centrally to a more localist agenda. Councils should be free and have more power. For example, it should be open to a council to set fees below the cost-recovery level if, for some reason, it felt that an important thing to do. I am not entirely sure why taxpayers might feel that that was the right thing to do, but then councils should be allowed to do things for which I do not understand the reasoning. Indeed, on many occasions they do so.
I will not go through all the details of the new clause, as the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North mentioned them. However, I have one concern to put to the Minister. He talked about the Secretary of State’s powers and used the word “cap”. He will be aware that we had discussions yesterday on concerns about the Secretary of State’s capping powers over the police precept. I understand where the Minister is heading and why he wants such a power in this case, but can he assure me that he wants the Secretary of State’s capping power to be used rarely, and that, ideally, it should not be the driving force as it has been in other cases in local government, such as police precepts?
I am delighted to see the new clause, and I thank the Minister again on behalf of the Liberal Democrats, and on behalf of the LGA as one of its vice-presidents.
Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)
Although I was not a member of the Committee, I declare an interest as the vice-chair of the all-party leisure group and a former nightclub manager. I spent a number of years in the late-night economy, and I stress that 99.9% of people who go out and enjoy their time in the evenings are good, responsible people out for an office party, leaving do or birthday party. The problems are all about dealing with the small minority.
One reason why I wished to speak was to make a point about transparency. It is in the interests of venues to have a safe environment, and the licensing authority can ensure that. I wish to make a few points about the late-night levy. I have met a number of representatives of venues, and of course nobody likes paying extra money, but it is very much in their interests that the money from the levy is used to create a safe environment. I should like the venues to have a greater opportunity to help to shape how the money is spent. My understanding is that local authorities will receive 30% of it and 70% will go to the police. The venues, which pay that money, should help to shape that decision. Ultimately, the final decision should be for the police or the local authority, because they are the ones who are accountable, but the venue owners see the situation at first hand.
In the areas where I worked, I saw that when people were enjoying themselves, they were generally well behaved, but when they wanted to go home, they found themselves unable to do so. I would therefore have suggested that the money from the levy be spent on a taxi rank co-ordinator in my area, so that people could get home swiftly and efficiently. In other areas, the venues might suggest that there should be better lighting, because generally, where there is good visible access there is a lot less trouble than in areas with only a handful of people around, which are not so well policed. My plea is that the Government ensure that there is transparency, and that venues that contribute to the late-night levy have a say.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
I come at the matter from a different viewpoint from my hon. Friend’s, because I used to be the chairman of the licensing authority in the city of Hull. Transparency is important on the late-night levy, and on fees in general, but do we not have to ensure that we get the split right, too? When I was the licensing chairman, many of the solutions to problems in the late-night economy came from the council rather than from the police. We should therefore keep the percentage split under review at all times.
Justin Tomlinson
That is a valid point, and my hon. Friend speaks with first-hand experience and authority. The layout of the night-time economy is different in every town, which means that each town creates unique challenges that either the local authority or the local police must challenge. That is why I keep coming back to the need to ensure that venues feed into the system. The people who run them will know where the minority of people are generating problems.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
I very much agree with the hon. Gentleman. Does he think it is important that nothing in the proposals detracts from existing models of good practice in arrangements involving the police, the local authority and the business community, such as the one in Broad street in Birmingham?
Justin Tomlinson
I absolutely agree, and I am familiar with Broad street—I have seen how it has been transformed into a relatively safe place over the years. There will always be a minority who cause problems, but if local late-night economy establishments, the local authority and the police work together proactively, they can transform an area. Although it is a burden to pay additional fees through the late-night levy, the venues will be paid back, because if more customers can see that the levy has created a safe environment, they will have the confidence to go to the venues and spend money.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
My hon. Friend said that every town is different, and I am interested in his experience of running a late-night venue. The Bill would apply the provision to a whole council area, and not just to one town in it. As a nightclub owner, would he have been happy to pay for problems in a different town, and for none of his money to be spent in his town?
Justin Tomlinson
My understanding is that that is why picking areas has been delegated to local authorities. I would extend it so that the measure is venue-specific. There are some proactive, good venues and there should be an incentive to encourage that; the opposite should apply to establishments that are perhaps less proactive and more responsible for the minority of problems.
Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)
I agree absolutely with my hon. Friend’s last point. The measure would be very effective in creating a safe environment in some areas of Portsmouth such as Guildhall walk, but in the north of the city, which I represent, many venues have no problems at all, and yet they would be severely penalised by such fees.
Justin Tomlinson
To sum up on that point, my plea is for common sense to be applied to each local area. I would go one step further. The Best Bar None and various Pubwatch schemes are so essential that they ought to be compulsory. It should be part of the licensing arrangement that somebody who is responsible for a venue attends those meetings. Clearly, the best examples are when local authorities, the local police and local venues work together. It is unacceptable if a late-night economy venue does not proactively participate in such schemes, so I would include such participation as a condition of the licence.
James Brokenshire
This has been a useful debate, and I welcome the contributions from the hon. Members for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) and for Cambridge (Dr Huppert)—I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s kind comments and thank him for his support and participation in Committee—and my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson).
Obviously, new clause 1 relates to the general setting of licensing fees and the administration of the Licensing Act 2003 locally, rather than to the late-night levy. I recognise the points that my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon has just raised, and perhaps we will debate the late-night levy in further detail when we debate another group of amendments in this part of our consideration of the Bill.
The late-night levy is a discretionary arrangement, so local authorities can decide whether one is appropriate in their area. The Government have indicated that there could be exemptions for establishments that make arrangements under schemes such as Best Bar None. Further detail will come forward in regulations and guidance, as I indicated in Committee, which I hope my hon. Friend accepts.
The hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) mentioned in an intervention the business improvement district in Broad street, Birmingham, which I have had the pleasure to visit. I saw how that partnership-type approach of drawing together the relevant licensed premises and other businesses to provide funds to look after and manage the area. A sad and tragic occurrence led to the establishment of that business improvement district, but it is a good example of how partnership working involving the police, the local authority, licensed premises and other businesses can work.
The Government do not seek to prescribe one specific model of partnership or how partnerships operate, or to say how a local authority should approach its management of licensing-related issues. Those things can be done in various ways, including through a business improvement district, a late-night levy, an early morning restriction order or voluntary arrangements such as community alcohol projects. I went to see the St Neots project when that started, and it is now being rolled forward. We support many such consensual voluntary arrangements whereby various parts of business work with local councils to come up with innovative, practical solutions to address problems on the ground.
The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North and others highlighted a number of specific points in relation to new clause 1. As she said, the previous Government tasked the independent fees review panel with consideration of the deficit between the costs and income of licensing authorities. In 2006, it estimated that a 7% increase in fee income was necessary for full cost recovery. Obviously, important points were made in the course of that review and, as I indicated, it was first and foremost in our considerations in introducing the new clause. The Government did not suddenly alight on the new clause at the last moment. Indeed, the original consultation document, which we published last summer, clearly refers to fees. In addition, full cost recovery was very much part and parcel of the consultation, to which we are therefore responding.
We will issue statutory guidance under section 182 of the 2003 Act on the application of good regulation, including risk assessment and targeted inspection, to which licensing authorities must have regard. That will be important as a further framework to the structure of the new arrangements.
Hon. Members mentioned burdens on business. We are obviously cognisant of statements in the recent Budget and the intention to introduce a moratorium to exempt micro and start-up businesses from new domestic regulation. There will be exemptions from the moratorium, and we will obviously need to consider the new licensing legislation, including locally set fees, within that framework. However, I say to the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North that there is a clear need to address the gap highlighted in the Elton report. It does not seem right for local authorities effectively to subsidise the processing and activities of the 2003 Act when dealing with licensing arrangements, and I shall say more about that.
Diana Johnson
Will the Minister therefore confirm that the one-in, one-out principle will not apply in relation to the Bill, which certainly places a range of regulatory burdens on business?
James Brokenshire
The hon. Lady actually made that point in Committee. The Government take one-in, one-out seriously. Regulatory burden was considered closely and carefully during the approvals that led up to the Bill, as part of our broader consideration of the wider arrangements concerning burdens on business. We want to strip away things that are not needed, bureaucratic and unnecessary, but we will come to that in due course when we consider the next group of amendments, which relate to alcohol disorder zones, which clearly have not worked, because no one has taken them up. We obviously consider the new clause to be an important step towards getting the right balance.
The hon. Lady mentioned periodically reviewing the maximum fee level. That is certainly something that we will do. As I said in my opening comments, we also intend to consult properly on the details of the proposals, so that we can take on board the different opinions. There will, therefore, be an opportunity for a number of these matters to be considered further. The hon. Lady asked about the time scale for that. We anticipate that the necessary regulations will be laid in October 2012 to allow that detailed consultation to take place. That is the time scale we are working to in the laying of the relevant regulations. She also asked about guidance. There will be guidance on how locally set fees will operate and on how to set the fees. It is important that there is transparency on how this is undertaken—in many ways, that reflects the comment from my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon—and clarity on how the fees will be set locally.
A question was asked about what the assessment for setting fees locally will include and what full cost recovery will encapsulate. The new clause makes it clear that the costs that a licensing authority may recover in its fees include those of other responsible authorities and other relevant parts of the licensing authority. That means that marginal costs that relate to duties arising from the Licensing Act can be included. However, policing costs would not be included. In other words, we are looking at the administration of the Act by the relevant local authority. That is how the new clause has been framed. Obviously, however, further consideration of the details can take place as part of the consultation as we move towards introducing the regulations that will sit behind this provision. That also applies to the necessary guidance that will help to inform the framing of the arrangements. Obviously, fees must not represent a blank cheque for local authorities, and fee payers need to be reassured of that. As I have said, a maximum level for each fee will be set in regulations. We will consult formally on the level before we introduce it, and will take evidence from a variety of authorities and fee payers to ascertain the satisfactory maximum sum for each fee.
I hope that I have addressed hon. Members’ comments made during the debate. I also hope that all hon. Members will recognise that this is a sensible proposal, that we have listened to representations made from different quarters and that this provision will deal with the shortfall for local authorities. We are introducing the measure in a considered way, recognising the pressures on local authorities and businesses, and we believe that it is appropriate. We consulted on the new clause last August, and I hope that hon. Members will be minded to support it.
Question put and agreed to.
New clause 1 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 2
Alcohol disorder zones: repeal
‘Sections 15 to 20 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (alcohol disorder zones) are repealed.’.—(James Brokenshire.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
James Brokenshire
New clause 2 will repeal the previous Administration’s alcohol disorder zones. This optional power for local authorities was so well considered and useful that it has been completely unused by local licensing authorities to date. Alcohol disorder zones were heavy on bureaucracy and potentially expensive to introduce and administer. I am genuinely sorry that the hon. Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe) is in his place to hear me say this, because he was involved in the consideration of these zones. I recognise some of the challenges that he probably faced at the time in trying to introduce the policy, but we believe that it is time to call time on alcohol disorder zones. The Government do not believe that they are the right approach to tackling alcohol-related nuisance, annoyance or crime and disorder, and as such we seek their repeal.
Alcohol disorder zones were designed to tackle areas with a specific problem with alcohol-related nuisance, annoyance or disorder. To apply a zone, a licensing authority was required first to gather evidence that a specific area was responsible for causing alcohol-related nuisance, annoyance or disorder. Adoption of a zone further required that all premises subscribed to an action plan. If there was evidence that the action plan had failed, local authorities could impose a charge on local businesses to pay for additional enforcement, but had to provide a calculation of the cost of enforcement in order to levy the charge. That was a prohibitive bureaucratic process.
Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that one of the unattractive features of the disorder zone plan was that it required areas to be described, or to describe themselves, as places of disorder? In itself, that was a most unattractive prospect.
James Brokenshire
It would be fair to say that it probably was not the biggest selling point of the policy to have that tag attached to a local area. It was probably, therefore, one of the disincentives. However, the problem had more to do with the levels of bureaucracy, including the impact of making some of the extremely challenging calculations necessary. I do not think that any local authority has felt brave enough to come forward. The Government are committed, therefore, to reducing the burden. The tools and powers available to local authorities must be simple to adopt and proportionate to the problem. Early morning restriction orders, for example, will, by stopping the sale of alcohol, be a simple way for local authorities to tackle specific problems at specific times and on specific days. That is something that we recognise and have taken forward in the Bill. We have sought to apply a more flexible approach through early morning restriction orders.
The late-night levy will be an optional power for local authorities to raise a contribution to the large policing costs incurred in the late-night economy, as well as supporting costs of local authorities in managing the late-night economy. The levy has been specifically designed to be simple for licensing authorities to adopt. We considered the repeal of alcohol disorder zones in our public consultation last year. The responses overwhelmingly supported repeal. Local authorities and the police spoke of the evidential burden, while businesses identified the policy as ineffective. I am sure that hon. Members will agree that alcohol disorder zones should no longer be on the statute book. I therefore ask that the new clause be incorporated in the Bill so that we can finally put this failed policy to rest.
Diana Johnson
Clearly, the new clause is a housekeeping matter for the Government in tidying up licensing legislation. I listened carefully to the Minister’s comments on the need for simplicity and a proportionate response to alcohol problems late at night. However, I do not think that the blanket approach being adopted under the late-night levy is proportionate. I would caution the Minister. Let us consider a large area of the country such as the East Riding of Yorkshire. If the local authority was minded to apply a late-night levy to the whole of the East Riding, small country pubs with no problems would have to pay the levy as well as places in more built-up areas, such as Bridlington, that do have problems late at night. The Government’s approach through the late-night levy might almost be described as the son of the alcohol disorder zones.
Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend also accept that the club that people end up in will sometimes not be where they start consuming alcohol? In fact, they might not even have a drink there, but that can be where the problem occurs.
Diana Johnson
My hon. Friend makes an important point. Indeed, when it comes to licensing, one disappointing aspect of the Bill is the failure to deal with pre-loading and the low cost of alcohol in supermarkets. This Bill would have been an opportunity for the Government to legislate to deal with those issues, and there is concern that they seem to have missed it.
I am concerned that businesses that already contribute to voluntary arrangements—they include Pubwatch and Best Bar None, to which hon. Members have referred—may feel penalised if they are then asked to make contributions to the late-night levy as well. There is also concern that because the provision will affect only licensed premises that sell alcohol, it will not deal with, say, problems with late-night takeaways. If the Minister is minded to do so, it would be worth considering whether the late-night licence should include all parts of the late-night economy. That would seem to be the fairest way of dealing with the issue.
Dr Huppert
I am delighted to support new clause 2. It would remove sections 15 to 20 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006, which were totally ineffective and did not work. I suggest that those provisions were also slightly tokenistic. Indeed, the previous Government fell into the trap of doing a lot of things that were token demonstrations. It is an easy trap to fall into, and I do not think that doing things for tokenistic reasons was unique to the last Government. I hope that this Government will learn the lesson of not doing things because they look good, but will continue to make great efforts to ensure that whoever forms the next Government will not have the same things to say about us.
One of the lessons learned about why those provisions were ineffective is set out in clause 125(4), which deals with the late-night levy requirement. That lesson, which has just been discussed, is how we draw the boundaries of an area. We cannot take the model of the past, which involved drawing boundaries very roughly. Therefore, the Minister decided that an area must be an entire council area, as has been said, although that causes problems in Cornwall, which is a large council area. Perhaps we should learn a slightly different lesson, which is that although we should not have complete flexibility of boundaries, we could have some flexibility. Perhaps the rule should be that we can combine entire ward areas, which would avoid the problems of the provisions that we are getting rid of, but make their replacement work a little better.
Dr Huppert
That is obviously the case, but unless the hon. Gentleman has a fantastic suggestion for solving that problem—a problem that applies to waste collection and everything else, and in every other country—I do not see how we can address it. The same problem would apply with council boundaries, which are not always in the perfect location for all purposes.
Penny Mordaunt
My hon. Friend mentions large council boundaries. Portsmouth, which I think is the most densely populated city in Europe apart from London, has a small council boundary, yet we have the same problem. There are areas with no problems where, if a fee was applied, it would be problematic for businesses to keep running.
Dr Huppert
I agree, and I think that my hon. Friend and I share the same objective. We do not want to return to the alcohol disorder zone approach, which clearly did not work and involved having to draw a complex wiggly line that would have exacerbated the problems. That is why I am suggesting ward-sized boundaries, which, while never being perfect, would take us a lot further and allow the various areas of Portsmouth to be separated—I do not know the city as well as she does, and I am sure that she could say which wards were more of an issue than others.
Steve McCabe
If we accept that alcohol disorder zones were not a success—perhaps it is right to repeal them at this stage—is it not also fair to say that what we are hearing today are legitimate concerns about the unintended consequences of the new approach? Given the hon. Gentleman’s desire not to have ineffective legislation, does he feel that it would be in the Government’s interests for the Minister to promise an early review of the proposal?
Dr Huppert
It is hard to argue that alcohol disorder zones were effective, given that nobody used them, so I hope that the hon. Gentleman was not trying to make that case. I am not calling for an early review, because we have to give things a certain amount of time. I would not necessarily have said, for example, that getting rid of alcohol disorder zones at the beginning of 2007 would have been the right thing to do either. It takes time to realise that something simply has not worked. I am not calling for an early review, but I am sure that the Minister will comment on my suggestion of using ward boundaries. We did not discuss it in detail in Committee, either here or in the other place, but it might provide a way of making the scheme a bit easier for councils to use, because we want to ensure that what the Minister intends is, in fact, what we see in the end.
Andrew Percy
I had not intended to speak in this debate, but it is about an issue in which I am quite interested, given my former role as chairman of the licensing authority in Hull, one of the two councils in East Yorkshire. My coalition colleague, the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), stole some of my thunder, proving that on this issue we are a happy coalition.
I chaired the licensing authority in Hull for a number of years, at the time when powers were transferred to us from the justices, so I was involved in writing the city’s licensing policy. It was clear from the beginning that the powers that we had been given were insufficient. In some ways, I understood why the Government had come up with a solution, given the national outcry at the time and the problems that we had all read about. However, when I sat down with our council officers and said, “Alcohol disorder zones—what’s your advice?”, they said, “We’re not going to go anywhere near them, and we doubt anyone else will.” It would have taken some time for alcohol disorder zones to become effective, but it was clear from the beginning that they were incredibly bureaucratic and would not be introduced in any part of England. Indeed, we have had similar problems with cumulative impact zones, which the local authority in Hull has twice rejected, and on very much the same grounds—the unfairness that could be meted out to premises with no problems at all, but which could none the less be drawn into such zones.
I take the point made by the shadow Minister—my near neighbour, the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson)—about the late-night levy. In many ways, I understand the Government’s intentions. Indeed, when I was a licensing chairman, all we wanted was a little more power—as all councillors and politicians always do—to do something about the premises with which we knew we had repeated problems. At the time, we could not always rely on the police to make review applications, and we could do little with the review applications that we received from residents, because the weight of evidence that they put was insufficient, so we do need something.
I have concerns, however, particularly—as the shadow Minister said—in areas such as the East Riding of Yorkshire, or in the other part of my constituency, in north Lincolnshire. A late-night levy could draw in the Percy Arms—the pub four doors from my house, in a small, quiet, East Riding village—at the same time as nightclubs in Bridlington and Withernsea, which seems a little unfair.
Indeed, that would be unfair in a city as well. In Hull, as well as in Scunthorpe and other towns in our area, the problems are generally in the town or city centre, yet pubs in the suburbs or outside the city could also be drawn into the levy. I therefore support the suggestion made by Members in all parts of the House, including by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge, that we should think carefully about how to apply the levy. I understand the Government’s intention, and I agree with the early-hours orders, which could be particularly effective. However, we need to ensure flexibility in the system. In my time as a licensing chairman, we wanted a bit more power to do something against certain premises. However, as with all legislation, we need to ensure that we do not draw in premises that are innocent of any trouble. Like the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe), I would urge the Government to give an assurance that the provisions will be reviewed at some time in the future.
Justin Tomlinson
Obviously I have already covered some of this issue with my earlier comments on the late-night levy, but the buzz word that is coming across is greater flexibility. A number of Members have highlighted possible solutions to the problems of setting boundaries, but I think that the only way to set a boundary is to be venue-specific. Venues that conduct themselves in the right manner need an incentive. It has been suggested that venues in the East Riding with no history of problems, which do everything by the rule book and are nowhere near the problem areas, could be caught by the provisions. If we adopted more specific boundaries, we might have a ward boundary between two different establishments, with the well-behaved one on the wrong side of the boundary.
Diana Johnson
It has been interesting to listen to the practical experiences of the hon. Members for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) and for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson). Given his practical business experience, what does the hon. Member for North Swindon think about the possibility of having a late-night levy and an early morning restriction order operating at the same time?
Justin Tomlinson
There would be obvious challenges. For example, if a local authority decided to charge any venue open after midnight a late-night levy but made it close at 12.15, that would not give it an opportunity to generate enough additional income to pay for the late-night levy. My proposal would be to bring the local authority, the police and the late-night venues together to discuss the matter. No venue will openly say that it wants to pay a late-night levy, because it adds an extra cost to its bottom line, but if that money were seen to be spent on improving the safety and enjoyment of the vast majority of people, allowing them to get home safely and quickly after a night out, they would be more likely to go out again and spend money.
I am trying to strike a balance between being proactively supportive of people going out and enjoying themselves and considering those who have to deal with the minority who cause problems. To ensure that this works, I would make it compulsory for those responsible for running venues—the managers, the keyholders, the licence holders—to sit round the table with the local authority, the licensing people and the police. This practice can encompass schemes such as Best Bar None and Pubwatch, and approaches that bar troublemakers from all the venues in an area if they cause trouble in just one. In that way, the vast majority who go out to enjoy themselves on Friday and Saturday nights will have their experience enhanced, and the industry will benefit because its perception and reputation will be greatly improved.
Steve McCabe
I agree with the comments made by the hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson); his experience has been of benefit to all of us. This is not a party political issue. We all want to see successful pubs and licensed premises where people can enjoy themselves and the businesses can make money and provide the jobs that are very much needed in some places. Perhaps I did not make myself clear to the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert): I am happy to accept that alcohol disorder zones were not a success. I think that they were genuinely conceived as an attempt to deal with a problem that we all recognised, but they were not a success. I am not in any sense troubled to see the Government scrapping them and trying a different approach. I honestly hope that that approach will work, and I wish it well.
There are some obvious concerns, however, and several of them have been mentioned today. Problems could arise when a rural area is adjacent to an intensively developed town, for example. The application of the rules in such a situation could be problematic. The west midlands has several local authorities in close proximity, and there is a risk that the application of certain levy arrangements in, say, Solihull could have a knock-on effect in neighbouring Birmingham. It is reasonable to say that we are concerned about how this will work in practice.
I urge the Minister to review the provisions, not because I want to be able to come back here in 12 or 18 months to have a bit of fun at his expense. On many occasions, I would quite enjoy that, but in this context it probably would not be terribly useful. As I have said, this problem does not involve any party politics. We are all grappling with the same issue, and want to get to the same end point. I therefore urge the Minister to have a review, perhaps even a rolling review, so that we can see what problems are developing, what solutions are being tried, and whether there is a way of developing best practice. Instead of reaching a point at which we have to say, “Oh well, that didn’t work either. We’ll repeal it and start all over again,” I would much rather see the approach being modified as we go along. It might be in the Minister’s interest to agree to report regularly to us on the lessons that have been learned from the application of the measure, so that we can call on the experience of people such as the hon. Member for North Swindon, who could suggest adjustments that might make a difference.
I wish the measure well, and I hope that it will work, but I urge the Minister to think about introducing a regular review process that will allow us to learn lessons and ensure that we tackle the problem.
James Brokenshire
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) for his contribution. He talked about not wanting to have fun at my expense, but I genuinely take his point on board.
I am sorry that the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) was in the Chamber only fleetingly. Perhaps he did not want to be present at the denouement. I remember him, when he was a Minister, grappling to try to make the alcohol disorder zone policy work. I was an Opposition spokesman at the time, and I used to pick holes in it, saying that parts of it would not work and that it was too complicated. I asked how areas would be defined and which businesses would be part of the scheme. I also asked how the costs and charges would be calculated, and what steps would have to be taken to set the scheme up. I could almost see the beads of sweat forming on the hon. Gentleman’s brow, because those were all fair questions that many people were asking. I do not claim any great credit in that sense, because many outside agencies, including the Local Government Association, shared the view that it was a nice idea but that it really would not work. It is now right and proper to accept that, to move on and to learn the lessons from that time.
I respect the comments of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), who I know probably wants to gloss over the alcohol disorder zone episode, as does everybody nowadays, and move on to a new chapter. The ADZ episode taught us that in seeking to apply a charge in that way, defining the area can seem quite straightforward initially but prove devilishly difficult. That was one of the issues behind the ADZ problem.
We have sought to take a different approach by looking at the issue on a time basis rather than at a specific area and by dealing with the problems of managing the late-night economy. Research showed that there were pressures on the police and increases in crime in the early hours of the morning, suggesting the importance of the time at which this was happening. That is why clause 126 makes it clear that the late-night levy must
“begin at or after midnight, and… end at or before 6 am.”
I hear the points made about rural areas, for example, where there might not be a problem. I note the question about whether, if the levy were applied more generally across the whole local council area, it would capture the well-run community pubs in the locality. If this were set to start only at midnight, I would suggest that those well-run community pubs are most likely to have shut by that time—before the levy comes into operation. If this is a problem, there is flexibility in the setting of the time at which the levy starts; it could begin from 1 am, for example. That flexibility is built into the measure.
Nigel Mills
It would help us and the industry if we understood how we are going to deal with the problem of events accidentally going beyond midnight or 1 am. Although there might not be any problems, a licence might be sought to cover a wedding or other event. At times such as new year’s eve places are open for a long time, which might technically tip them into the levy, although that is not the Government’s intention.
James Brokenshire
I think I made it clear in Committee that in those circumstances we would allow people to change their licence conditions to avoid the levy. Temporary event notices for specific issues would be considered under the TENs regime.
Diana Johnson
Will the Minister confirm that if a pub or venue operates just once in a year for which the late-night licence after midnight or 1 am applies, it will be subject to a late-night levy? Will the Government consider allowing, say, five or 10 opportunities for a pub to open during the year before the late-night levy kicks in?
James Brokenshire
Again, I think I said in Committee that we would want to look at such issues in the detail of the regulations. There are some specific points, as I said in Committee, that it would be appropriate to examine further. As part of that, we would want to give flexibility to encapsulate the schemes we have debated this afternoon—the Best Bar None and other voluntary schemes—so that some credit could be applied. I stress that the provisions are intended to be flexible, but if it became clear that the levy was not effective, at that stage—once implementation has taken place and an appropriate period had elapsed—it would be appropriate, as with any measure, to review it. We believe, however, that the provisions already have the required flexibility and are workable, and that they will not have the same bureaucratic problems as alcohol disorder zones. We believe that they are an important means of aiding the management and control of the late-night economy, many areas of which have been badly affected by the introduction of the Licensing Act 2003, without necessarily taking account of the consequences that have occurred.
Justin Tomlinson
I welcome the suggestion that there is greater flexibility in the provision, but setting the levy according to time is still likely to capture venues that conduct themselves appropriately but just happen to be operating beyond a certain time. There is an analogy with football policing. A big local football club will contribute to policing costs because it attracts all the supporters, but no one would dream of charging the part-time or amateur football clubs that play on the local recreation grounds. It should be venue-specific and it should take into account the need to be proactive in working with the local authority and the police authority.
James Brokenshire
On the venue-specific point, if there are problems, a review of licensed premises can be conducted. That is also why we included provisions to strengthen the enforcement of the laws against under-age sales.
Can problems with pre-loading, post-loading and so forth be pinned down to one specific area or not? We think that setting the levy on a time basis is fair and equitable, involving the provision of funding for local authorities to look at taxi marshals and manage the late-night economy in its broadest sense. By narrowing it down, the provision might start to lose some of the intent behind it, which is to help the police and local authorities to manage the late-night economy—if that is what they choose to do. I remind hon. Members that this is a discretionary power for local authorities to determine.
Diana Johnson
The Minister has made it clear again that this is a discretionary power that local authorities can exercise, but he has also made it clear that there were no alcohol disorder zones, so I wonder how many local authorities he expects to apply the late-night levy. That knowledge will help us to gauge its success in the future.
James Brokenshire
Strangely enough, this Government do not believe in central targets. The hon. Lady tempts me down that path, but I have to say that I have no specific target. I refer her to the regulatory impact assessment, which she will have read assiduously, as it sets out the level of fees forecast. The regulatory impact assessment sought to examine possible options and estimate what might be recovered by the late-night levy. Rather than count up the number of local authorities, however, I point her to that assessment. We hope it will be successful.
Andrew Percy
The Minister is generous with his time and in being willing to take some of our points into account. I welcome the suggestion that we might be able to find a way, by means of regulation, of excluding village pubs such as the ones in my area. The problem with the alcohol disorder zones was not necessarily the setting of the boundaries, but the paperwork and bureaucracy that went with them. I commend to the Minister one area of law that seems to have worked very well—the designated alcohol zones. These are no-drinking zones, which have a set boundary and were quite easy to set up in comparison with ADZs. Having boundaries or setting boundaries around problem areas is not necessarily that complicated if we ensure that the process is simplified.
James Brokenshire
There might be a distinction to be drawn between seeking to calculate costs and charges as with the ADZs, and local byelaws drawn up by some local authorities. As I have already said, the early morning alcohol restriction orders are relevant, along with cumulative impact zones. They show that there are ways of seeking to control the behaviour of individuals within a particular area. Calculating costs and levying charges and fees for licences appropriately has to be done in a broader way to make it effective so that we do not get drawn down into the bureaucratic mechanism that we are seeking to put to bed in respect of the alcohol disorder zone.
Michael Ellis
The Minister has been urged to make the Bill location-specific, but would that not confer a stigma on certain locations? Would it not also create excessive bureaucracy, as local authorities would have to do far more work? Moreover, would it not depart from the principle that the Bill seeks to implement, namely the establishment of a balance that will assist the police and allay public concern about such problems as disorder?
James Brokenshire
My hon. Friend makes some powerful points, which bring us neatly back to the subject of alcohol disorder zones. I do not think that they met the tests that my hon. Friend has just identified. For that reason, we think it right to end a policy that sadly became an alcohol disarray zone, given the challenges that stood in the way of its being brought to fruition. We believe that there is merit in providing local authorities and the police with funds enabling them to manage the late-night economy; we believe that the right way in which to do that is through the late-night levy; and we believe that it is time to end the ADZ episode, which has clearly been a failure.
Question put and agreed to.
New clause 2 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 3
General duties of licensing authorities
‘(1) The Licensing Act 2003 is amended as follows.
(2) In section 4 (General duties of licensing authorities) insert—
(a) protecting and improving public health.”.’.—(Diana Johnson.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
Diana Johnson
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
The Licensing Act 2003 sets out the four licensing objectives that must currently be taken into account when a local authority carries out its licensing functions: the prevention of crime and disorder, public safety, the prevention of public nuisance, and the protection of children from harm. The new clause would introduce a fifth objective: to protect and improve public health. We tabled it to deal with three key issues. First, there is the fact that public health is far more prominent and talked about than ever before. Secondly, there is the role of primary care trusts and, in future, local authorities, which is relevant to clause 104. Thirdly, there is the current position in Scotland.
Let me explain first why we think the issue of public health is so important. As an Opposition spokesman, the Secretary of State for Health made clear his strong commitment to it. So committed was he that he planned to rename the Department of Health “the Department of Public Health” if the Conservatives came to power. Obviously that has not happened, but the Secretary of State is very busy with his Health and Social Care Bill, and we know that he is trying to rename the NHS “the HS”—to get rid of the “national”.
The widespread view is that there is a proper role for Government in the promotion of good public health. We know from the provisions of the Health and Social Care Bill that one of the few budgets that will be ring-fenced in future is the public health money that will pass from the PCTs to local authorities in 2013. However, the Government have experienced big problems in their approach to public health. This month we have seen the fall-out from their stance on self-regulation by the drinks industry through the responsibility deal. A number of health groups have walked away from the discussions and the agreement, including the British Heart Foundation.
Don Shenker, the chief executive of Alcohol Concern, made clear his view that the Government’s approach to public health will not work. He said that the responsibility deal was
“the worst possible deal for everyone who wants to see alcohol harm reduced”,
and that it had no sanctions to impose if the industry failed to fulfil its pledges. He described those pledges as “half-hearted”,
and that the
“government has clearly shown that when it comes to public health its first priority is to side with big business and protect private profit.”
Let us consider what has already been said about this issue, and the action that the Government have taken so far. Yesterday the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) presented a ten-minute rule Bill to restrict the marketing of alcohol to children and young people. She made a telling point in expressing concern about the fact that the Government were putting the fox in charge of the chickens. They have, for instance, set their face against the idea of making personal, social and health education compulsory. That would have provided an excellent opportunity for young people to be taught about the effects of alcohol and the long-term health consequences of drinking too much.
In January, the Minister set out the coalition Government’s plans in relation to minimum pricing. He said that they wanted alcohol to be sold at the level of duty plus VAT. Many people, including representatives of many health organisations, have pointed out that that will have little effect on the price of alcohol in supermarkets, many of which will continue to sell alcohol that is cheaper than bottled water. It also contradicts the view of Liam Donaldson, the former chief medical officer, that there should be a minimum price of 50p per unit.
Dr Huppert
I wonder whether the hon. Lady can help me, given that I am a new Member, by reminding me what the minimum price was under the last Government.
Diana Johnson
As I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows, because he pays close attention to these issues, there has been a continuing debate for some time about the need to reach a conclusion that everyone considers appropriate. The problem with the announcement from the coalition Government is that it is causing most people to think that it will have no effect at all.
I know that the hon. Gentleman sets great store by academic research and evidence. According to research carried out by Sheffield university, pricing measures will only be significantly effective from around the 40p per unit mark. It is feared that the coalition Government’s preferred level will be not 40p but much lower, and that they have missed the opportunity to make significant strides in dealing with the problem of alcohol abuse.
As I pointed out during a previous debate, the Bill contains no provisions dealing with minimum pricing, and I think most people would consider that a great shame. We were looking forward to legislation shortly after the announcement in January. The Government are clearly in some disarray when it comes to public health and alcohol, but the new clause offers them a real opportunity to reassert their commitment to improving public health and dealing with some of the public health problems associated with alcohol. We believe that we are helping them to achieve what I am sure all Members agree is the very proper aim of ensuring that alcohol-related problems are dealt with properly by the House. Therefore, if the Government were to add in health and this further objective in respect of licensing, it would show that they are serious about the problem of public health, and it would also deal with the problems they have faced since taking office last May.
James Brokenshire
That was an interesting contribution from the hon. Lady. She said that she felt public health had been ignored for a long time, but she made a slight mistake by highlighting that. That is why I am delighted that my colleagues in the Department of Health are taking this matter seriously in their approach to Public Health England, which is giving proper attention to public health. It is a shame that the hon. Lady made those comments because we have had a reasonable debate and she unfortunately decided to make more partisan attacks during that contribution. Perhaps it is worth reminding ourselves of how we reached this point on the accident and emergency issues and of all the pressures that are brought to bear on our health service and on the police. The vibrant café culture had been promised and written up as part of the reforms introduced by the Licensing Act 2003, but it failed to materialise. That is why we are taking steps in this Bill to address licensing issues.
I agree with the hon. Lady that public health issues are involved here and that there is merit in making health a material consideration in the 2003 Act. The Government stated that in their response to the “Rebalancing the Licensing Act” consultation, which contained a specific consultation point on the matter, and we committed to considering the best way to take this issue forward. However, my view is that the issue requires further consideration, alongside wider Government work, to address the harm alcohol causes to health.
It is important to highlight the fact that the Bill has sought to bring certain changes into effect, such as enabling primary care trusts, as health bodies, to make representations. Health bodies have a clear interest in the existing 2003 Act objectives of “public safety” and “crime reduction”, as illustrated in: alcohol-related accident and emergency attendances; ambulance journeys following road traffic accidents and other accidents; glassing and other injuries; alcohol poisoning cases and so on. That directly relates to how those health bodies are able to make representations under the Bill. Drunken accidents and injuries comprise a high proportion of accident and emergency attendances—the estimate is up to 70% on Saturday nights. When added to ambulance costs, they cost the NHS about £1.1 billion a year, so this is a legitimate focus for licensing.
Diana Johnson
Members on both sides of the House want to ensure that we get the best possible policy on alcohol and public health—we all have an interest in doing that—but can the Minister explain to me what he expects the PCT to provide on an individual licence application? A lot of bureaucracy will be involved if the individual licence application has to involve accident and emergency statistics. Are they what he expects the PCT to provide?
James Brokenshire
In some areas, NHS organisations already share anonymised A and E data with the police. Such intelligence can highlight where violent incidents occur and any hot-spot premises, thus supporting police representations at licensing hearings and wider law enforcement. Making local health bodies responsible authorities will encourage the effective collection and sharing of anonymised A and E data and other robust and targeted evidence for licensing authorities to consider.
The hon. Lady specifically asked how the role of local authorities will be managed in the context of Public Health England. She will be well aware that licensing authorities become responsible authorities under the Bill and are therefore able, in essence, to make their own representations. Obviously, different functions are carried out by different parts of the local authority, as happens in planning. The licensing committee is able to consider applications and relevant legislative issues, so there is a broad read-across in how a local authority is able not only to make representations but to determine things. A local licensing panel will have an almost quasi-judicial role in that situation, as does a planning authority.
I want to return to some of the hon. Lady’s other points.
Steve McCabe
Whether or not the Minister accepts the new clause, does he accept the central point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson)? As the Bill stands, a local authority could license a supermarket to sell cheap alcohol, creating a problem. If that local authority then imposed a levy that applied to other premises in the near vicinity but not to the supermarket, the health sector would not necessarily benefit from any of the levy, but it might suffer some of the worst cost effects of the problem. Does he accept that he must do something about the central health issue?
James Brokenshire
I will come to that. If the late-night levy is effective in managing the night-time economy and in supporting the police, it will have an impact. For example, it might affect the accident and emergency attendances that might otherwise arise in an area. Indirect benefits could accrue from the operation of the levy in that way. Different points need to be discussed, but I will come on to the issue of price, which is a fair point and was raised by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson).
Protecting public health is a complex issue, and that was reflected in the mixed nature of the responses the Government received when, in our “Rebalancing the Licensing Act” consultation, we asked about adding the prevention of health harm as a fifth licensing objective. Although those who supported the proposal acknowledged the benefits of improving public health, reducing the burden on the NHS and increasing responsibility among licensees, those who opposed it were concerned that it would be onerous and unworkable.
Adding protecting and improving public health as a licensing objective, as the new clause proposes, would mark a fundamental change to the Licensing Act. The four existing licensing objectives underpin the Act and, as the hon. Lady highlighted, the licensing authority is required to carry out its functions with a view to promoting these objectives. We believe that before we make such a fundamental change, it is essential that full consideration is given to the potential impact to ensure that any changes are workable and do not have any unintended consequences. We should undertake such considerations alongside wider Government work to address the harm done by alcohol to health. For example, if we were to introduce the objective now, we would need to consider carefully—as we are—what the knock-on consequences might be.
If an area has public health challenges caused by deprivation, does that mean, strictly applying such a rule, that it should automatically have no licensed premises and is that acceptable? We need to consider such detailed factors carefully in the context of the consequences of making such a radical change. That is why we need to consider the question carefully and cautiously, albeit that I have sympathy with the points about public health. That was why we raised the issue in our consultation last August but felt, on the basis of the representations we received, that it was important to reflect on the matter and to consider it further in that context and in the context of the wider work that is taking place.
The hon. Lady made a good point about the Scottish licensing laws, which have an objective to protect and improve public health. We are keen to learn any lessons from the Scottish experience. The Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005 only came into force in September 2009, it will be evaluated and we look forward to learning from it. There are other differences in the Scottish framework, such as the powers to control density of premises, which raise their own issues and would need to be taken into account.
As announced in the “Healthy lives, healthy people” document, we want to improve alcohol treatment services through a greater focus on outcomes and payment by results. We also want to improve the commissioning of preventive services, including brief interventions by health professionals, so there is a broader focus that we wish to take on board. The hon. Lady mentioned the responsibility deal, but this is only a first step. The initial pledges will form an important platform for future work. Networks are already developing the next tranche of pledges, which we expect to go much further and to demand much greater commitment and action on the industry’s part.
Diana Johnson
The Minister announced in January his intention to legislate on minimum pricing. Can he update us on when those measures will come before the House?
James Brokenshire
We are considering this matter very carefully so that it is introduced in a less bureaucratic and a straightforward way. We will put further proposals before the House in due course because this is something we are committed to. Having made the announcement, we will be following through on this. It is important to ban below-cost sales and introduce the duty-plus-VAT measure that we announced at the start of the year. The Government are committed to following through on that.
The Government have already made provision in the Bill to make primary care trusts and local health bodies responsible authorities. That will ensure that local health bodies can influence licensing determinations by making representations based on local health evidence such as accident and emergency statistics. Those representations will need to be linked to existing licensing objectives to be relevant. Health bodies have a clear interest in the existing Licensing Act objectives, as I have mentioned, so we think it is an important step to recognise their role in that way.
For the reasons I have given, I ask the Opposition not to press the new clause and to allow the Government to examine this issue further and learn from the evidence and experience that is emerging from elsewhere. We can then consider what is the best way of legislating to make public health a material consideration within the licensing process, thereby recognising the points that have been made this afternoon and, equally, that this is a complex area. Doing things effectively and in the right way is the best course of action.
Diana Johnson
I am grateful to the Minister for his warm words about looking at public health and alcohol and I hope that we will see some more action on this. On minimum pricing, I am concerned that the announcement was back in January but I think there is genuine willingness to move forward on this. I have set out my concerns that the minimum pricing level that the coalition has announced is not high enough, but if we are going to do this, let us get on and do it. I do not quite understand why there is delay, because the coalition has made its announcement and stated its position. I listened to the Minister’s comments about the time frame, but “in due course” can mean quite a few things in the House of Commons, so I will certainly be looking to see what progress is made, because it is time to get on with this.
It is disappointing that the Bill does not address the issues of pre-loading and the concerns that people are expressing up and down the land about the low cost of alcohol in supermarkets. I am keen to work positively with the coalition on this important issue and I strongly hope that there will be real progress in the coming months. I hope also that the health organisations that have walked away from the responsibility deal negotiations can be brought back in and reassured that there is genuine commitment on the part of the coalition to deal with health and alcohol issues. On the basis of what the Minister has said, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
James Brokenshire
I beg to move amendment 22, page 87, line 26, leave out ‘authorisations’ and insert
‘premises licences and club premises certificates’.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments 23 to 30.
James Brokenshire
These are minor amendments to the late-night levy clauses in part 2 that clarify the effect of the provisions. To avoid possible misinterpretation, the Bill should use consistent terminology. Amendments 22 and 30 intend to achieve that end. Amendments 26 and 27 amend clause 133 merely by making it clear that if licensing authorities amend the categories of premises in their area that benefit from an exemption or reduction in their levy liability for a subsequent year there may already be none as well as one or more premises in those categories for the existing year.
Amendments 28 and 29 remove a drafting error in clause 133 and clarify the basis on which licensing authorities must ensure that any exemption or reduction categories that apply in their areas in a subsequent year accord with the categories prescribed in regulations. Amendments 23, 24 and 25 ensure that local authorities do not suffer a burden in introducing the late-night levy. They do not change the intention underlying the levy, nor do they change the burden on business.
The Bill as it stands allows licensing authorities to deduct the costs that they incur in the “collection, administration or enforcement” of the levy from the levy revenue. However, it has become clear that that phraseology, including the reference to administration, does not include the specific costs of introducing the levy. A licensing authority will need to carry out a number of administrative procedures before collecting the levy. First, it will hold a consultation on the way in which it wishes to operate the levy. That is an important process, and it ensures that the community’s opinions are heard. Following a decision to adopt the levy, the licensing authority will announce its intentions. Some businesses will decide that they do not open long enough in the levy period to make it worth while to pay it. To avoid the levy, those businesses will be able to make a free change to their licence. However, that means that licensing authorities must process the licence variations without recovering costs. Amendments 22, 23, 24 and 25 will ensure that licensing authorities can deduct the costs of those introductory processes from the levy revenue.
I do not want the levy to become a burden on licensing authorities. It has always been my intention that it should be self-funding while raising a significant amount of money for the police and other organs of local government. The amendments ensure that that is the case. Let me reiterate that the amendments will have no further impact on business. We have published indicative levy charges, which will remain the same. To make some simple clarifications and to ensure licensing authorities bear no burden as a result of the late-night levy, I urge the House to accept the amendments.
Diana Johnson
May I ask the Minister to clarify a few points? There will be a number of changes to the licensing provisions in the months and years to come, and I should be grateful if he set out his intentions on whether additional support or resources will be provided for local authorities when those new schemes are adopted. For instance, will additional financial resources be made available to assist local authorities with the late-night levy and early morning restriction orders in ensuring that information is provided to businesses? Clear guidance should be issued about what that will mean for businesses.
We have held a number of short debates about the late-night levy and the possibility that operating just one night a year can make a business liable for the levy. Businesses are often busy just trying to operate on a daily basis without having to get to grips with the minutiae of new legislation. Will the Minister set out what the Home Office intends to do to ensure that businesses are fully acquainted with the requirements of the new legislation and exactly what it will mean for them? Costs can be deducted from the late-night levy if someone has participated in the consultation on whether to have a late-night levy. Will that all be set out in a clear and transparent way so that businesses understand exactly why they will have to pay a certain amount? Setting things out in a clear format that is easy to understand will be the key to ensuring that the new licensing provisions operate well. If the other amendments in the group are intended just to tidy up the legislation and make it read more smoothly, my only question is on how the operation of getting information out to businesses would be provided.
James Brokenshire
I thank the hon. Lady for her comments. Her point on guidance is relevant. As I have indicated, as part of the implementation of the late-night levy it is intended that guidance would be drawn up on the process and that it would deal with some of the detail in regulations on the issues I have already highlighted. [Interruption.] I have only started and already the hon. Lady wants me to give way.
Diana Johnson
Will the guidance provided on that basis be statutory guidance, or guidance that can be ignored?
James Brokenshire
I am not sure that guidance can be ignored. It is intended to be of assistance in the implementation of the proposals on the late-night levy. The key element that the hon. Lady has highlighted relates to costs and resourcing. We are bringing forward some of these changes to ensure that licensing authorities can take account of the set-up costs relating to the late-night levy, which might otherwise be an issue. We think that it is important to introduce the amendment to ensure that, as with the different examples I have already given, there are no unintended consequences and that, if we are seeking to ensure that costs are properly attributed, that is built into the structure of the late-night levy.
The hon. Lady made a general point on transparency and how costs are to be drawn up. That is a fair point which I take on board, and we will work through that in detail on implementation so that businesses are clear about the calculation and which costs will be brought into effect for the deduction. It is worth saying, however, that it is a deduction and the levy itself is a fixed figure; we are talking simply about what is being deducted and the 70:30 split, with which she will be familiar. In some ways that relates to our previous debate on the general licensing fees and the costs that can be attributed for the maintenance of the Licensing Act. Some of her comments may be addressed in that direction as well.
Clearly, we want to ensure that the late-night levy is a success. We want local authorities to come forward with it. We believe that allowing the set-up costs is an important part of ensuring that the levy operates well and does not have unintended consequences. That will ensure—this reflects some of the comments in the preceding debate—that the levy will be used by local authorities, will be useful and will contribute to managing the late-night economy and dealing with some of the challenges we have heard about this afternoon. That is why we believe that the Bill and its provisions on the late-night levy mark an important step forward in assisting local communities and local authorities to manage the problems of alcohol and the late-night economy. I therefore hope that hon. Members will be minded to support the amendment.
Amendment 22 agreed to.
Clause 130
Net amount of levy payments
Amendments made: 23, page 89, line 20, leave out from ‘of’ to ‘may’ in line 22 and insert ‘relevant expenses which’.
Amendment 24, page 89, line 23, leave out third ‘the’ and insert ‘any’.
Amendment 25, page 89, line 28, at end insert—
‘(2A) In subsection (2)(a), “relevant expenses” means expenses incurred by a licensing authority in the administration of the late night levy requirement including, in particular, such expenses incurred in, in connection with or in consequence of—
(a) any decision mentioned in section 134(1);
(b) collection of payments of the late night levy;
(c) enforcement of the late night levy requirement.
(2B) Expenses incurred by a licensing authority which fall within subsection (2A)(a) include, in particular, expenses which it incurs in connection with any application made by virtue of section 134(2)(c).’.—(James Brokenshire.)
Clause 133
Amendment of late night levy requirement
Amendments made: 26, page 90, line 38, leave out ‘different’ and insert ‘any’.
Amendment 27, page 90, line 39, after ‘apply’, insert
‘in addition to any that currently apply, or to cease to apply,’.
Amendment 28, page 91, line 7, leave out 'by virtue of section 132(1)(b) or (iii)'
and insert
‘as the result of a relevant decision’.
Amendment 29, page 91, line 11, at end insert—
‘( ) In subsection (4)(b), “relevant decision” means a decision under—
(a) section 132(1)(b)(ii) or (iii), or
(b) subsection (1)(c) of this section.’.—(James Brokenshire.)
Clause 135
Permitted exemption and reduction categories
Amendment made: 30, page 92, line 41, leave out from ‘all’ to ‘that’ in line 42 and insert
‘holders of relevant late night authorisations in’.—(James Brokenshire.)
Clause 140
Demonstrations in vicinity of Parliament: repeal of SOCPA 2005 provisions
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
I beg to move amendment 162, page 94, line 27, leave out subsection (2).
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 163, page 94, line 32, leave out clause 141.
Amendment 164, page 95, line 7, leave out clause 142.
Amendment 171, page 95, line 7, leave out clause 142 and insert—
‘142 Injunctions to prevent a prohibited activity in controlled area of Parliament Square
(1) The High Court may grant an injunction against a person under this section if—
(a) it is satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the respondent has engaged in, or is about to engage in, a prohibited activity; and
(b) the injunction is necessary to stop the person doing a prohibited activity or from starting a prohibited activity.
(2) For the purposes of this part, a “prohibited activity”; is an activity—
(a) which may result in serious public disorder or serious damage to property; or
(b) where the purpose of the activity is the intimidation of others with a view to compelling them not to do an act they have a right to do, or to do an act they have a right not to do.
(3) A person who fails without reasonable excuse to comply with a prohibition in an injunction order under section 143(1) is in breach of the injunction.’.
Amendment 176, in clause 142, page 95, line 8, leave out ‘constable’ and insert ‘senior police officer’.
Amendment 185, page 95, line 8, leave out ‘or authorised officer’.
Amendment 177, page 95, line 12, at end insert—
‘(1A) In subsection (1) a “senior police officer” means the most senior in the rank of police officers present at the scene.’.
Amendment 195, page 96, line 12, leave out ‘5’ and insert ‘3’.
Amendment 165, page 96, line 13, leave out clause 143.
Amendment 172, page 96, line 13, leave out clause 143 and insert—
‘143 Injunctions under section 142: content and duration
(1) A condition included in an injunction ordered by the High Court under section 142(1) may prohibit the person from—
(a) being in the controlled area of Parliament Square for the purpose of undertaking a prohibited activity; or
(b) entering the controlled area of Parliament Square for the purpose of undertaking a prohibited activity.
(2) An injunction prohibiting a person from being in or entering the controlled area of Parliament Square continues in force until—
(a) the end of such period on which the injunction is made as may be specified by the court making the injunction; or
(b) if no period is specified, the end of the period of seven days beginning with the day on which the injunction is made.
(3) A period specified under subsection (2)(a) may not be longer than seven days.’.
Amendment 178, in clause 143, page 96, line 20, leave out ‘constable’ and insert ‘senior police officer’.
Amendment 193, page 96, line 22, leave out ‘90 days’ and insert ‘seven days’.
Amendment 194, page 96, line 24, leave out ‘90 days’ and insert ‘seven days’.
Amendment 186, page 96, line 20, leave out ‘or authorised officer’.
Amendment 179, page 96, line 26, leave out ‘constable’ and insert ‘senior police officer’.
Amendment 187, page 96, line 26, leave out ‘or authorised officer’.
Amendment 166, page 96, line 40, leave out clause 144.
Amendment 173, page 96, line 40, leave out clause 144 and insert—
‘144 Applications for injunctions under section 142
(1) An application for an injunction under section 142 may be made by the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis to the High Court.
(2) Notice of any application under subsection (1) must be served on the respondent in accordance with the rules of the court.
(3) The court must give the respondent an opportunity to make representations in proceedings before it about the making of an injunction.’.
Amendment 180, in clause 144, page 96, line 41, leave out ‘constable’ and insert ‘senior police officer’.
Amendment 188, page 96, line 41, leave out ‘or authorised officer’.
Amendment 181, page 96, line 43, leave out ‘constable’ and insert ‘senior police officer’.
Amendment 189, page 96, line 43, leave out ‘or officer’.
Amendment 182, page 97, line 1, leave out ‘constable’ and insert ‘senior police officer’.
Government amendment 57.
Amendment 183, page 97, line 6, leave out ‘constable’ and insert ‘senior police officer’.
Amendment 190, page 97, line 6, leave out ‘or authorised officer’.
Government amendment 58.
Amendment 184, page 97, line 7, leave out ‘constable’ and insert ‘senior police officer’.
Amendment 167, page 97, line 28, leave out clause 145.
Amendment 174, page 97, line 28, leave out clause 145 and insert—
‘145 Breach of injunction
(1) The court may impose a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale where—
(a) an injunction under section 142 is granted against a person, and
(b) on an application made by the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, the court is satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the person is in breach of the injunction without reasonable excuse.
(2) For the avoidance of doubt, subsection (1) grants the only powers available to the court where it finds that an injunction under section 142 has been breached.’.
Amendment 196, page 97, line 28, leave out clause 145 and insert—
‘145 Power of court on conviction
(1) The court may, following the conviction of a person under section 141, make an order requiring the person not to enter the controlled area of Parliament Square for such period as may be specified in the order which may not exceed seven days.
(2) Power of the court to make an order under this section is in addition to the court’s power to impose a fine under section 142(8).’.
Amendment 168, page 98, line 1, leave out clause 146.
Amendment 175, page 98, line 1, leave out clause 146 and insert—
‘146 Discharge of injunction
(1) The court may discharge an injunction if an application to discharge the injunction is made.
(2) An application to discharge the injunction may be made by
(a) Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis who applied for the injunction; or
(b) the respondent.
(3) Before applying for the discharge of an injunction, the applicant mentioned in subsection (2) must notify the other.’.
Amendment 191, in clause 147, page 98, line 34, leave out ‘authorised officer and’.
Amendment 169, page 98, line 34, leave out clause 147.
Amendment 170, page 99, line 4, leave out clause 148.
John McDonnell
I almost feel like apologising to the House for burdening it with so many amendments, but let me just explain the grouping of the amendments, which come in three blocks.
John McDonnell
We shall have another discussion, on aesthetics, later.
I am sure that all Members will be aware that Brian Haw is being treated for cancer, and, whatever our feelings about the protest camp and, in particular, Brian himself, I am sure that we all wish him well in his recovery, even though some might not want a specific geographical location designated for that recovery.
I will explain the background to the amendments, because the issue was excellently debated in what was an entertaining Committee. I am not often placed on such Committees—on average, it happens once every 10 years—but I read the Committee notes and thought that it was an excellent debate about the background to the Bill and the amendments themselves.
As people know, Brian took up his protest a decade ago, and anyone who has ever talked to him will understand his fervent belief in the need for peace and for the avoidance of war, and his concern for the innocent victims of war. His chosen method of protest has been to bear witness in front of the Houses of Parliament to the suffering of others as a result of war, and he has done so by choosing to place an encampment in the square, by addressing Members and others with a loudhailer and by engaging in discussions with others to try to convince them of the errors of entering into military action.
Brian reminds us all of the consequences of the decisions that we take in this place, and he perhaps attempts to influence us in our future decisions. His is a traditional form of protest: peaceful, non-violent and similar to protests that have occurred elsewhere in this country and throughout the world.
When the original proposals came forward under the previous Government, we engaged in that debate and a number of Members expressed their extreme dislike of Brian Haw and his colleagues’ presence outside Parliament. I sat through endless pompous speeches about the sanctity of Parliament square, complaints about not being able to work for the noise of the loudhailer that Brian used, and long-winded debates about the aesthetics of Parliament square. I have a sneaking suspicion that what a number of Members did not like was being reminded of the impact of the decisions that they had taken in this House—decisions that have caused so much human suffering.
The previous Government nevertheless brought forward legislation, which, I think we all agree now, was tedious, bureaucratic and unworkable—and has degenerated into farce. I commend the comedian Mark Thomas for his work to expose its farcical nature. Interestingly, the poor drafting of that legislation meant that it failed to deal with what many Members thought was the harm being done by Brian’s presence, because the legislators—I did not like to point it out to them at the time—failed to make it retrospective, so it never addressed the issue of the encampments. In addition, the permit system became a mockery of what the legislation intended. It degenerated into farce when one person was arrested simply for reading out the names of the dead in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I welcomed—and I said so publicly—the statements by the former Opposition that that legislation would be repealed. I made that very clear before the election and during the election campaign as a result of which the coalition Government were formed. The problem is that this Bill does not scrap the previous Government’s proposals. In fact, it impedes peaceful protest. I give this warning: if it goes through, it will degenerate into the same unworkable and unmanageable farce that the previous legislation degenerated into. Having looked at the evidence from Committee and read the discussions, I think that these proposals will put an unmanageable burden on police officers and local authority officers, and increase their vulnerability to conflict rather than reducing it.
In my view, the Government’s proposals are unacceptably restrictive. They replace one unworkable system with another and have the same effect of restricting, for no good, sensible reason, the right of peaceful protest and assembly and free speech in Parliament square. These proposals are still specific to Parliament square, although I accept that the definition is narrower than in the previous Government’s legislation. The proposals still place a burden on a constable, but extend it to a local council officer to direct a person to stop doing something and to use physical force to take equipment away. Under the proposals, a person who is convicted may be fined up to £5,000, which is a level 5 offence—I find that draconian, to say the least, and well over the top—and a formal application would still have to be made concerning loudspeaker use and to prevent the erection of sleeping structures.
The bizarre debate in Committee about what is a sleeping structure was extremely entertaining. The most intense and heated part of the debate involved the modernist versus the traditionalist: those who supported the duvet approach to sleep as against those who supported the blanket and sheet approach. That is the nature of the judgments and valuations that individual police officers will have to make: “Is that a sleeping bag I see in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?”; “Is that a sleeping structure you’re carrying with you or a banner supporting the Police Federation?” It will become absolutely ludicrous. The other issue is this: what if someone can sleep standing up, leaning against a structure or against a wall? Does that become a sleeping structure itself? We will go through the same old problems that we had with the previous legislation.
I will be brief, because other Members want to speak, and there is another important group of amendments to discuss. The reasons for the amendments are very straightforward; they have been rehearsed in Committee and in debates on the previous Government’s legislation. In this country, we pride ourselves on a strong democratic tradition of peaceful protest. That has created climates of opinion external to Parliament that have influenced decisions in this House and the decisions of Governments of all political persuasions. It is linked to the fundamental right to free speech and fundamental right of assembly and association. In everything that we do in this House, it behoves us to guard against undermining any of those basic human rights.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman about the right of peaceful protest and the strength of our great British democracy in allowing that. Surely, however, there is a distinction to be made between those who are genuine protesters—I rather agree with him about loudspeakers, incidentally—and those who are campers and dossers staying on a permanent basis, and who are demonstrably an eyesore.
John McDonnell
I do not think that the peace campaigners in Parliament square are vagrants or dossers; they are performing a basic democratic service. If they were vagrants or dossers, other legislation, which is used on a regular basis across the country, is available to address that problem. Spending parliamentary time specifically to target half a dozen people who are trying to express their democratic wishes demonstrates to the outside world that we might not have our priorities right.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
I am sorry that I missed the earlier part of my hon. Friend’s contribution. He will be aware that a great deal of parliamentary time has been spent discussing Parliament square over the years, all of which has been unsuccessful from the point of view of those who want to clear it of all signs of protest. Is he aware that in the United States, there has been a peace camp outside the White House for some 15 years, and that there have been peace camps outside the Australian Parliament and other places? Is it not part of something that we should be proud of, namely the democratic tradition?
John McDonnell
It is exactly that. Before my hon. Friend arrived, I mentioned that it is a traditional form of expressing democratic views. Rather than banning or impeding it, we should celebrate it. It is as simple as that.
This matter is linked to fundamental human rights. In the Human Rights Act 1998, we adopted those human rights specifically in legislation, but we accepted that they are qualified and can be limited. I accept that, but any limit has to be proportionate and for a legitimate aim. We have to be clear what harm is being inflicted as a result of an individual’s activities if we are going to restrict their fundamental rights. That is the problem with this debate and the debate under the previous Government. There has been no clarification of exactly what harm is being done outside Parliament that requires such disproportionate legislation. As far as I can see, there is no legitimate aim in the proposals of this Government, just as there was not in those of the previous Government.
The issue of security was raised by the previous Government and in the Public Bill Committee. People will remember the ludicrous debate that was held last time around when we were all worried that members of al-Qaeda would hide behind the banners erected by Brian Haw. That was actually suggested in this Chamber. I remember the last IRA attack in London because it nearly hit us when I was in my office. It came from a Transit van that fired missiles, which landed near No. 10. The police officer made it very clear in Committee that the peace campaigners out there have allowed their tents to be searched whenever they have been asked. There is no security risk.
The other issue is whether there is a threat to public order or any form of violent behaviour associated with the peace camp. As far as I am aware, none of the peace campers, including Brian Haw, has been prosecuted for violent behaviour. That issue has not been raised to promote this legislation.
The main objection is therefore the aesthetic one. People do not like the look of a few tents and campaigners outside Parliament. I do not accept that people’s aesthetic judgments can be used to undermine someone’s basic human rights of free speech, association and assembly. And anyway, the protest won the Turner prize, so there are different judgments here about aesthetics. However, I do not want to get hon. Members going about the Turner prize. It reduces the argument ad absurdum that we regularly spend a few hours in Parliament on an aesthetic judgment because some peace campaigners outside Parliament annoy a small, or perhaps even a large, number of Members.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
My hon. Friend will know that the processions of our fallen will no longer go through Wootton Bassett, and that an attempt was made to move the announcement of the names of the fallen from Wednesday to a Monday and a Tuesday. The Government wished to bury the bad news. Is it not a matter for celebration that Brian Haw, through all weathers and for 10 years, has reminded us in the House of the terrible results of war and the price of those who have fallen?
John McDonnell
Whether or not people agree with Brian—and I do—he provides us with an essential service in reminding us of the consequences of our decisions in the House. That might offend some people, but sometimes it is helpful to have such offence to draw our attention to the consequences of what we do here. Whatever Members think, and whether or not the tents annoy people who think they are messy or untidy, that is no reason to take away people’s right to choose their method of peaceful protest.
Mr Gray
If the hon. Gentleman was not prepared to accept the distinction that I proposed to him a moment ago, might he not accept that there is a distinction to be made between Brian Haw, who is quite possibly a genuine peace protester and possibly to be respected for his commitment, and the large number of other people who have appeared in recent months and put up their tents? Who knows who they are? If he will not accept that distinction, how many more tents should we accept in Parliament square before we decide that the people in them are illegal campers rather than protestors?
John McDonnell
The hon. Gentleman has an exceptionally valid point, which has to be addressed reasonably. Wherever in the country we find that constructions have been erected that people find objectionable, we use planning legislation to deal with them. That legislation already exists. The other people who have joined Brian Haw are mostly peace protestors, and others have come along in support of other causes. If the hon. Gentleman remembers, we had the Tamils come along when the war in Sri Lanka was going on. They camped there for a week, and it would have been heart-rending to try to shift them when they were seeking to influence us to intervene to seek peace, which we did. We helped as best we could to prevent further disaster in Sri Lanka. It is all a matter of reasonable judgment and trying to ensure that we protect basic human rights. The grounds for incursions on human rights cannot just be about the aesthetic displeasure of a number of Members of the House. That is why repealing the previous Government’s legislation was extremely important.
In the debate on that legislation, and I believe in Committee on the Bill, the question was asked whether allowing one group of people to protest precluded others from turning up to protest. Shami Chakrabarti of Liberty, to which I pay tribute for the support it has given us on the issue, has made it clear that there has been no evidence of other people saying that they cannot protest, or of a backlog of protestors unable to get to Parliament square.
Jeremy Corbyn
Perhaps I can help my hon. Friend on that point. I can recall at least two demonstrations in the square that Brian Haw and others possibly did not support. One was when a pig, Winston, was kept there for some months by a pig breeders association, until Winston became too big for the square and had to move on to pastures new. There was also the pro-hunting lobby, for which I do not think Brian Haw had a huge amount of sympathy. Nevertheless, the pro-hunting lobby and the peace campaigners managed to co-exist for quite a long time. That proves that democracy can work even in Parliament square.
John McDonnell
There was a worrying consequence of one of those cases—I think Winston got eaten, as a form of capital punishment introduced as a result of what happened. However, a range of protests have taken place in Parliament square unhindered by Brian Haw and the other protestors. If there were a specific harm caused, and one protestor or group of protestors was preventing others from protesting, we should legislate on that specifically rather than have the blanket approach in the Bill.
The amendments are fairly extensive and are in three basic batches. The first begins with amendment 162, and suggests scrapping the previous scheme and preventing the new scheme from being introduced. The proposal is based on the commitments that both coalition parties made before the election, and the argument is the same: this Government’s proposals disproportionately target protests and protesters, just as the previous Government’s measures did. The amendments would remove the powers to harass peaceful protesters. It is very straightforward: there is enough legislation on the books already to prevent protests in Parliament square that we feel impede the operation of Parliament or in any way cause disorder. In effect, the amendments would remove the restriction on protests in Parliament square overall.
The second of three batches of amendments begins with amendment 171. They propose a reasonable, and a more appropriate and proportionate, alternative. Basically, amendment 171 would introduce an injunction process, whereby people concerned about prohibited activity within the square could apply to the High Court for an injunction. It defines “prohibited activity” not as tents or the use of loudhailers, but specifically as something that
“may result in serious public disorder or serious damage to property; or…where the purpose of the activity is the intimidation of others with a view to compelling them not to do an act they have a right to do, or to do an act that they have a right not to do.”
Existing public order legislation can already deal with security concerns and violence within the square, but if hon. Members want specific powers, the amendment would give people the opportunity to seek an injunction, which would be imposed by the High Court if it reasonably believed that a prohibited activity or serious disorder was being planned or had taken place. Basically, that would introduce due process into the act of preventing people from undertaking protests within the square when that could result in public harm. The harm on the basis of which someone’s human rights can be restrained and constrained is thereby defined. Amendment 174 would in addition reduce the overall penalty to level 3, which attracts a £1,000 penalty, rather than the current £5,000 penalty.
Our next batch of amendments—the batch of last resort—addresses who will implement the legislation. As I said, at the moment, the existing legislation and the Bill put an unmanageable burden on police officers. At the same time, the Bill introduces local authority officers into what could be very difficult and dangerous waters.
I propose that if a police officer is to take such decisions, it should be a senior police officer rather than a constable. We should remember that the decision will be to direct someone that they cannot protest in a certain way, and that they must give over their loudhailers, sleeping equipment or whatever. The officer will also have the ability to use force to take such things and arrest people, which is an extensive power that could cause unnecessary conflict. That should be done by a senior officer.
Amendment 185 would mean that if an officer is to arrest someone, that officer should at least be a police constable—I do not believe that that should be the role of a local authority officer. The Bill introduces a vulnerability to local authority officers, who are not trained to undertake such work, and who are not capable of exercising the judgment that police officers exercise. Police officers are trained to make judgments instantaneously on whether someone is committing an offence, and on balancing human rights and an individual’s behaviour. A series of linked amendments would mean that a court could prohibit someone for only seven days rather than 90, although I can understand why certain Labour Whips do not want that for some of us.
As I said, amendment 174, which is in this batch, seeks to reduce the scale of the fine from £5,000 to £1,000—from level 5 to level 3. It is a matter of judgment, but I feel that the fine of £5,000 is so heavy that it will intimidate anyone seeking to organise a protest on the square or even thinking of applying for a licence, because something could go wrong and they would then be held liable. Rather than risk people thinking twice and therefore not coming along to protest legitimately, we should err on the side of caution before deterring people from such activity.
The amendments would define the powers on court conviction much more clearly to avoid the individual summary offence. They also address issues involving the forfeiture of any items. There is a danger that, under the wide and vague power given to police officers at the moment, police officers can take goods from people in a summary way without there being recourse to the courts.
I have rattled through the amendments, because I know that a lot of Members want to speak. [Interruption.] Well, I think they do. Certainly, members of the Committee will want to speak. However, the issue before us sets a test for individual Governments. It relates not only to major issues, but to smaller ones such as this. It is a test of whether Governments are, as they say they are, truly liberal and committed to human rights, and whether they really want to be reforming Governments. This might seem like a minor issue for the House to be addressing—I do not think that we should be wasting our time, and we should not be introducing this sort of legislation—but it is an important test on which the Government will be judged.
In opposition, the Conservative party agreed that this legislation was outrageous and illiberal, and it promised before the election that it would scrap it and support the right of peaceful protest, which I supported as well. Now the Government have introduced proposals that vary very little from the existing regime. In fact, they will become equally contradictory. As a result of this small matter, I believe judgments will be made on the illiberality of the coalition Government, and on their competence too. If this measure is implemented, and individual officers seek to enforce it, it will produce conflict. It will demonstrate an illiberality of mind and the oppressive nature of the Government’s approach.
On that basis, it would be wrong to legislate in this way. I appeal to the traditions not only of my own side but of the Liberals in respect of the right to protest and to freedom of speech, and those of the Conservative party in respect of individualism. I think Disraeli said that man is great when he is motivated by his passions. Those people out there are motivated by a passion for peace and against war. We should not do anything to impede the expression of their views, but that is what this legislation does, and that is why I urge the Government either to withdraw the provisions or support at least elements of my amendments.
Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)
Unlike the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell)—and, I suspect, every other Member in the House at the moment—I did not have the privilege of being on the Bill Committee. As he will appreciate, however, Parliament square stands in my constituency.
I have quite a lot of sympathy with a number of the things the hon. Gentleman said in speaking to his amendments. Above all, there is nothing worse than the sheer powerlessness of this place in the public’s eye. He was right about the indeterminate number of hours spent on this small matter over the past 10 years. We need only consider the incidents and terrible disturbances last weekend on Piccadilly circus and Oxford street. There is a sense of powerlessness. Many constituents—they would not necessarily blame the police, and neither would I—think, “These events are allowed to go ahead, yet we have absolutely no say in the matter.”
In many ways, I agree with what the hon. Gentleman said about the sense in which Parliament is weak and almost entirely marginalised when such debates take place. A decision can be taken by Executive order to go to war and then be rubber-stamped 48 hours later in a parliamentary debate. I know that he and I take very different views about the rightness of what has happened, but I would agree with him in this regard: we spend endless hours debating such matters to no avail and end up with unworkable legislation. We have had some unworkable legislation in the past, so I share some of the hon. Gentleman’s fears that we might be going down that route again.
John McDonnell
Can the hon. Gentleman update us and clarify whether it is true that the local authority and the Mayor have now secured sufficient legal judgments in the courts to remove the peace camp in due course anyway?
Paul Flynn
Is the hon. Gentleman seriously saying that we have to trample on the precious freedom to demonstrate in order to tidy the background for the royal snapshots?
Mr Field
The hon. Gentleman might not be quite as much of a royalist and a monarchist as I am, but he will appreciate that that is not what I am saying. However, there was a focus on trying for this thing, although the wheels of the law take a while to turn—there are a number of lawyers in the House, including, either side of me in the Chamber, some rather more distinguished lawyers than I ever was in my brief legal career. I understand that there will be no further legal proceedings on the matter until considerably after 29 April.
Jeremy Corbyn
It occurs to me that the people in Parliament square might actually be awaiting the royal wedding and have got themselves a good place from which to see it. They have got there early. We should commend them for their enterprise in being there so far ahead of the date.
John McDonnell
But it is a valid point, which was also addressed in Committee. We get ourselves into a ludicrous position in which someone turning up with a sleeping bag to wait for the wedding—as the Prime Minister did, when, as he told us, he turned up with his sleeping bag for a previous royal wedding—could be arrested under the legislation in the same way.
Mr Field
Ad absurdum, the hon. Gentleman’s argument is right. However, that is also precisely the distinction that we have to face: the distinction between a one-off arrangement for the one, exciting night before a major public event, and having a permanent encampment around Parliament square. It is to the latter that most sensible people—not those only in this House, but many millions of our constituents—would turn their minds. It is not acceptable that a UNESCO world heritage site—Parliament square, the parliamentary buildings and Westminster abbey—is blighted by having a large permanent encampment. That is an issue, in part, of aesthetics. However, millions of tourists come to Parliament and they must be dismayed by what they see, week after week, month after month. It cannot make much sense for us to allow it to continue.
To an extent, I had sympathy with elements of what the erstwhile Government were trying to do, such as their idea of having a licensed system covering demonstrations when major debates were taking place. In my view, it would have been entirely legitimate, for example, on the day we had our debate on Libya, for those who felt strongly about the issue, on either side, to have held a large, peaceful demonstration. But the notion that encampments can exist day after day, week after week, is another matter. The hon. Gentleman referred to the Tamil encampment that was in Parliament square in the autumn of 2009, which reached a ludicrous stage. There was a lot of noise and disturbance. There were old-fashioned local authority health and safety issues, as well as the whole question of toilet provision, and the area became something of a health hazard as the Tamil group camped there for six weeks before finally leaving.
Many of our constituents are bemused by our sheer powerlessness, and by the fact that we have not been able to get our act together to get the necessary workable legislation in place to ensure that we can achieve our goal.
Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
One of the reasons that the previous Administration were on such a sticky wicket in regard to the legislation was that it simply did not work. This provision seeks to create a legal regime within which legitimate demonstrations can take place and be adequately controlled in accordance with the UNESCO status of Parliament square.
Mr Field
Indeed, one has heard those words before. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) is a relative newcomer to the House, but I fear that we have been having this debate for many years. As we all know, the workability, or otherwise, of legislation often does not become apparent until well after an Act has been placed on the statute book.
It is essential that we do our best, and we must protect the right to protest. I appreciate that Parliament square is a special place for protest, and I would be very loth to see the perhaps spurious ground of security being used to prevent legitimate, high-profile protest on days when debates were taking place in the House of Commons on high-profile legislation. This encampment, however, does disturb some local residents. That certainly happened when the Tamils were here in great numbers in 2009, and many residents wrote to me to say that their sleep was being disturbed.
We need to strike a balance. Either we have to solve this problem or we have to move on, because there is now a sense that we are powerless. Parliament and all the authorities are becoming a laughing stock. This should be a tremendous site for millions of tourists to visit from across the globe. Parliament is the most iconic building in the United Kingdom, and having that eyesore here is unacceptable. I hope that the Minister will take on board some of the very valid comments that have been made by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington, but I also hope that we will move hastily towards getting a workable provision on to the statute book to ensure that that eyesore becomes a thing of the past.
Jeremy Corbyn
I am sorry that I missed the earlier part of the speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell). I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr Field) for the measured way in which he has represented his constituents in the debate. He is fortunate to represent this constituency, but he also recognises that this area is a centre of national life and that there are bound to be demonstrations here. One should thank him for that.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington for tabling the amendment and for his consistency in standing up for civil liberties and the right to protest. We have debated Parliament square on many occasions. Indeed, a Select Committee once took it upon itself to examine the issue, and the former Member for Macclesfield, Sir Nicholas Winterton, invited me to give evidence. The Committee sat in due deliberation for several weeks discussing Parliament square. I gave my evidence, and the former Member for Macclesfield questioned me at some length. I think the House is beginning to get the flavour of the occasion. A report was duly prepared and legislation was duly proposed. That legislation was duly carried, and duly challenged in the courts.
The Herculean parliamentary effort to remove Brian Haw and non-existent protestors from Parliament square succeeded in being passed into law—and the only person unaffected by it was Brian Haw, because he successfully challenged the legislation on the basis that he was a pre-existing resident of Parliament square. One has to pay tribute to Brian Haw for making legal history by doing nothing more than taking up residence in Parliament square. Parliament made itself look a total ass during the whole process, sitting in all due majesty, but having no effect whatever on what Parliament wanted to achieve. We should thank Brian Haw for that. I know he has not been well recently, and I am sure all Members will join me in wishing him well in his recovery. He has shown courage, principle and determination. Not everybody agrees with him, but I think we have to respect it when somebody is prepared to give up such a long period of their life for a cause. Let us all respect it and admire it.
We should also recognise something about the importance of this building and this area of London. The previous Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, had a plan for reducing traffic in Trafalgar square. He succeeded by closing the north side to through traffic and wanted to carry out a similar plan for Parliament square. I am not sure which side of Parliament square was due to be closed, but we should think about this. I feel constantly sorry for the number of visitors arriving to see Parliament. Because of the size of the building, the difficulty of ensuring its security and so forth, the number of people who get in is much smaller than the number who would like to get in. I realise that we are slowly changing that, which is welcome, but most people have to spend most of their time fighting traffic lights and motor traffic simply to see the building. We should invite the Mayor to revisit the whole question of traffic planning, traffic layout, widening pavements and reducing traffic through the square so that everyone can see a very fine and very beautiful building, and enjoy the experience. It is possible to spend some time seeing other national assemblies and Parliaments around the world without having to dodge traffic—I am thinking of the United States, Sweden and a number of other places.
History often turns on itself on these occasions. This country is very good at the incorporatist view of history, as I put it. It is ironic, and many visitors do not always appreciate it, that Oliver Cromwell has a statue outside Parliament, while further up the road is a statue of Charles I and, indeed, not so far away, one of Charles II. They are all part of our history, and they should all be remembered and commemorated for what they did. Many people are vilified for their protests, yet commemorated later. Why do we have a plaque in St Stephen’s entrance to Marjory Hume, who chained herself to a statue there? The statue was damaged during the removal of her chains, when she was there demanding votes for women. Downstairs we have a plaque to Emily Wilding Davison, who locked herself in the broom cupboard to protest about the census of 1911 and in support of voting rights for women. Many other examples of people who have participated in protest outside this building and in this area have become part of our history and part of the road towards what one hopes will be a more democratic society.
Attitudes have changed quite a lot. The Sessional Orders used to be enforced extremely rigorously so that whenever the House was sitting no procession was allowed within a mile of Parliament. The police then relented slightly and changed their attitude. As I recall it, the first time they relented was when General Pinochet was in this country—detained in luxury in Virginia Water. “El Pikete”, as it was known, the Chilean picket that dogged him all the time, had a candle-lit event overnight in Parliament square. It was approved by the police and was an iconic and memorable event; it was part of our history that Pinochet was here. The Stop the War protest took over the square on 18 March 2003. When we debated Trident, the CND protest was here, and others have drawn attention to protests by Tamils, by pig farmers, by the Countryside Alliance and by the pro-hunting lobby—all kinds of people have demonstrated in Parliament square. We are a national Parliament. We are supposed to be the focus of political debate. I think that we make ourselves look more than a little ridiculous if we go to enormous lengths to stop people demonstrating outside Parliament. It is part of a democratic tradition, and it is part of our life.
Mr Field
May I clarify what I said? I did not say that there should be no protests, but the permanence of the encampment means that all the paraphernalia of the barricades is there permanently, which is clearly not compatible with a world heritage site under UNESCO rules. I was trying to draw a contrast between that and large-scale demonstrations on, perhaps, half a dozen days a year relating to debates that are taking place in the House.
Jeremy Corbyn
I was not trying to put words into the hon. Member’s mouth. The agreement of the police to the anti-Pinochet demonstration some years ago showed sensitivity, intelligence and involvement on their part. If we approach the issue in a co-operative way, recognising the right to protest, rather than immediately reaching for the law and the barricades and confiscating equipment, we may proceed a bit further down the road.
John McDonnell
The problem with the Bill is that it addresses the issue of protesters sleeping in the square overnight, but does not adequately address the concept of permanence. The peace protesters say, “We are not here permanently; we are just here while the country is at war. Cease the wars and we will depart.”
Jeremy Corbyn
That is a fair point. It does no harm for Members who come into and go out of the building every day to be reminded that we are involved in wars. I do not think that we should be, but others disagree. In any event, we need to be reminded of the decisions we have taken and of why we have taken them, and there is a constant reminder out there.
British television shows what some people consider to be shocking scenes in Westminster on the occasion of the state opening of Parliament, but other people around the world say to me, “Thank God that you live in a democracy where protest is allowed even on a day like that.” The Queen goes past in the gilded coach, and we see Brian Haw behind her. I think he once gave her a wave, actually. That is an example of protest in a democracy.
Other countries have experienced significant protests, such as Mexico. After the 2006 election, the result of which was hotly disputed, 1 million people occupied the centre of Mexico City for weeks on end in encampments. The mayor of Mexico city decided that it was impossible to move them, and that it would be wrong to do so because they were mounting a legitimate protest. Had he tried to move them, the consequences would probably have been pretty serious and severe.
Democracy is never simple or straightforward, and our image is never straightforward. We do not live on a chocolate box cover or in a postcard environment. We live in a working parliamentary building, and that working parliamentary building ought to be the centre of our democracy. The centre of our democracy is the right to support, the right to protest, the right to dissent, the right to campaign. It is a very powerful tradition.
This House is full of powerful traditions. I think of Charles Bradlaugh and the way he stood up for what he believed, and Tony Benn standing up on the issue of hereditary peerages, and so many others. They are part of our life and our history. We will make ourselves look very silly if we simply stop people taking part in such protests, because if we deny them the right to protest here, they will protest somewhere else; we will move the law somewhere else and make ourselves look even more ridiculous. We should be a bit grown up about this and accept that diversity and differences of view are good things. That is what makes a democracy vibrant and real.
Dr Huppert
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Members who have spoken on this topic so far. I absolutely respect the stance of the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), the passion with which he has spoken on these issues over so many years, and the spirit in which he moved his amendments. I had some sympathy for him, especially after the past 13 years, when he appealed to the Liberal vision of freedom and said that he could not appeal to his own party’s tradition on that.
It is also a pleasure to speak after the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr Field), who clearly knows about these topics, and who perhaps represents in his constituency more historic buildings than I do in Cambridge, which I envy slightly. [Interruption.] It is close, however, as he says.
It was great that the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) paid tribute to one of my predecessors as Member for Cambridge, Oliver Cromwell, who was probably one of the greatest political reformers the House has ever had. I am not saying I agree with everything he did, but as he is one of my predecessors, I feel I should speak up for him.
Peaceful protest plays a critical role in our country, and I hope that everybody agrees that we should encourage and respect it—I hope we all share that spirit. It is good that the Government are undoing some of the worst things the previous Government did in this area. I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern about the speed of the changes and his wish that they would move faster. I am grateful for the progress that has been made however, and I will continue to try to unwind even faster all the problems that have arisen.
I am not as persuaded as some of the Members who served on the Public Bill Committee—both Government and Opposition—that the encampment in Parliament square is a problem. I do not share the concerns about it being an eyesore; although it is not something I particularly like to see, it does not bother me. We also had a discussion about the effect on tourism, and I do not share that concern to the same extent as some other Members.
I am delighted that the Government are repealing sections 132 to 138 of the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005. We said we would do that when we came into government—both coalition parties were clear on that. The key question is: should there be any lesser replacement for those provisions? The Metropolitan police have made their attitude to peaceful protest very clear. I have been pressing them on this in the Joint Committee on Human Rights, on which I have the pleasure of serving. They are very clear that their role is not to prevent peaceful protest, and it is not even to allow peaceful protest; Assistant Commissioner Lynne Owens was very clear that their role is to facilitate peaceful protest. That is absolutely right. The job of the police is to make it easier for such protests to take place. That does not mean I agree with all the protests—I happen to disagree absolutely with a number of them—but the role of the police must be to try to make it easier for them to happen.
The key question was put very clearly by the director of Liberty, Shami Chakrabarti—she is always very clear—when she asked: what is the harm? I should declare an interest: I used to be on the national council of Liberty, so I am perhaps biased in my opinion of her, but I am sure that other hon. Members would join me in paying tribute to her efforts over so many years in that cause. We need to address the question: what is the harm? We should be having only those controls appropriate to that harm. I do not agree with the level of assessment of harm put forward by some people so I understand the separate blocks of amendments suggested by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington, although I hope he is not going to put them all to the vote, because that would take a long time and some of us were hoping to get home to do some constituency work tonight.
The idea of having no constraints is unlikely to attract support—that is a shame, but I have accepted that that is the case—so the debate has been about the practicality of how to work out something that interferes as little as possible with the right to peaceful protest, which I take extremely seriously. We discussed a number of aspects of that in Committee.
John McDonnell
It is important to put on record the fact that this debate is not about having no constraints, because the public order legislation is in place. It contains those constraints, which prevent violent disorder and public disturbance.
Dr Huppert
That is a very good point. A range of legislation applies, and in Committee we discussed some aspects that could or could not be used. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to make that point, but the question is whether the provisions before us are required.
I do not propose to detain the House by going through all the discussions we had in Committee, because I am sure that Members can read Hansard, if they have not already done so—I am sure that many Members have. Questions arise on the scale of activity. There is a spectrum and we need to consider: who should be allowed to do what; how often; and for how long? The worst of the Bill’s original proposals was the one to give council officials, or even non-council officials given authority by a council, the power to use reasonable force to try to deprive a protestor of an item of property. I was extremely alarmed by that. I am not comfortable with the idea that those people, who are not trained, should be allowed to use that power, and I was not alone. I thank the Minister for listening to me when I voiced my concerns early on and for having to endure our talking about it extensively in Committee.
In one of the Committee’s evidence sessions, I asked what our witnesses thought about that proposal. Shami Chakrabarti, from Liberty, made her position very clear:
“I am also very nervous about non-police personnel exercising those powers.”
None of us would be surprised about that. Metropolitan police Assistant Commissioner Lynne Owens made the point that police officers receive a lot of training and operate within a legislative framework and a misconduct procedure, but she said:
“The provision on the use of force would make us nervous.”––[Official Report, Police Reform and Social Responsibility Public Bill Committee, 20 January 2011; c. 113, Q32.]
Mr Mark Field
As the hon. Gentleman will have gathered from my contribution, I have considerable sympathy with what he is saying. However, how would he view the counter-argument, which is that there is a risk of upping the ante by having people in uniform—police officers—doing this work, rather than making this a local authority-related civil offence? Does he think there is a risk that bringing uniformed officers into the piece could turn a peaceable situation nasty?
Dr Huppert
There would be no requirement to bring the police in if one did not want to use “reasonable force” powers. I am very alarmed at the idea of a council official, who might not be particularly well trained, who might not be in uniform and who might not have any obvious form of authority, having the power to use reasonable force in such an instance. If I was involved in a situation like that, I would not expect that person to have such powers. If one did not wish to escalate the situation, one could simply not use reasonable force—one could use no force at all.
Dr Huppert
I think that that was indeed the intention, but “reasonable force” is not a beautifully defined phrase and it is tough to define it. It is particularly tough for people who are not experienced to work out what is and what is not “reasonable force”, particularly in a situation that may well be inflamed. I would not want to see council officials having to make those tough judgment calls.
Paul Flynn
The Prime Minister, in one of his more messianic moods, recently told the House that he defended the right to protest from Tahrir square to Trafalgar square. It would not have had the same resonance had he said from Tahrir square to Parliament square, because of the Bill before us today.
I do not know whether Members are familiar with some of the restrictions on our rights as hon. Members to raise certain issues. On two occasions, I have read out the names of the fallen in Iraq and later in Afghanistan, but it is no longer possible to do that because it would be declared out of order—a ruling was made in the previous Parliament. It is now very difficult to read out the names from Afghanistan because there are 320 and, if one included the ranks, it would take half an hour to read them out. We are forbidden as MPs to read out the names of the fallen in the wars who died as a result of our decisions. A woman read out the names of those who had fallen in Iraq at the end of Downing street, and for doing so she was arrested and jailed under, I believe, the Terrorism Act 2000.
Other restrictions have been introduced more recently. There has been a change to the route by which the bodies of the fallen are taken through Wootton Bassett. They will not be taken by that route, a good reason has been given and the town has been given a royal prefix as a tribute to what its people have done. I think we all appreciate the reminder they gave us; it was a powerful picture to see the bodies being brought through Wootton Bassett and to hear the sobs of the families. The grief is obvious on the television. That will not happen any more.
Twice last year, the names of the fallen were announced first on a Monday and next on a Tuesday, and it was only as a result of points of order and early-day motions that we returned to having announcements made at the right time, when they should be made: at Prime Minister’s questions, a time of maximum attendance in this House and maximum attention from the world outside.
I am afraid that the previous Government and this Government want to ignore the consequences of our actions. For 10 years Brian Haw, heroically, has given us and many people in the country a reminder of our decisions.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
The practice of the Prime Minister reading out the names of those who have fallen in Iraq or Afghanistan started in June 2003 with Tony Blair. It never happened before. Does my hon. Friend think that we should have read out those names in the Kosovo conflict, the first Iraq war or the Falklands conflict?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. We are going wide of the amendment.
Paul Flynn
In the first world war there were pages in newspapers listing the fallen and those missing in action, so it would not have been practical then, but it is practical in this conflict. Sadly, we are still losing soldiers—about one soldier a week dies in Afghanistan—so it is absolutely right to continue reading out their names and making such announcements. The Government should not stop doing that. I do not know whether my right hon. Friend agrees that MPs should be forbidden from reading out the names of the fallen, but I do not think that was a reasonable decision. I have challenged it and been stopped and I am sure that you would stop me now, Mr Deputy Speaker, if I attempted to read out the names of the fallen.
We really must pay tribute to Brian Haw. On nights when we have finished here and gone out, even in the middle of winter and sometimes in the early hours of the morning, he has been there, night after night, with his simple, anti-war message. Whether we agree with him or not he deserves our admiration and we do not need any attempt to sweep him and his companions out of sight to have a cosmetic effect on the square for an event that will be forgotten in a few years’ time.
I agree entirely with those who have said that the right to protest is honourable. It is a matter of pride when visitors come to London from countries in which any sign of protest would be swept away from their well-manicured streets and tourist attractions. The majority of the world’s countries would not allow such protest to take place in such a situation, but we are better and more advanced than them, and we should be proud that we have the right to protest. It is not available in the House, as it might be, but it is in Parliament square.
Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
I join the diverse coalition of interests championing the right to protest in Parliament square, but I suspect that that is where the similarity between my interests and theirs comes to an end. Suffice it to say that the Government’s proposals take us a long way towards the goal we are all attempting to reach. Some Members might be aware that between 2000 and 2004 I was responsible for eight protests, in different forms, in and around Parliament square, six of which were resoundingly successful but two of which were not. I shall explain why things went wrong on those two. In each circumstance there were conditions that made it almost impossible for the police to safeguard the community and the protestors in a reasonable way. We are getting away from that situation and I commend the Government for their measures in that regard.
In championing the rights of legitimate protest, there are three areas that I want to address—accessibility, affordability and spontaneity. My first point on accessibility is fairly obvious: most protestors need to have the necessary access to make their point while the interests of other users of Parliament square and this building, as well as those of members of the public going about their business, are safeguarded.
Affordability is a rather different issue. It must be in the interests of those of us in this House and outside it to ensure that people who wish to protest can do so with the minimum of obstacles in their way in the lead-up to their protest. If any protestor has to go through a process that involves going as far as obtaining a licence in some instances—not in this one, I add—we will be putting obstacles in the way of those who wish to register, often in the only way they can, their distaste for what we are doing in this House.
Paul Flynn
Does the hon. Gentleman’s tolerance for protest extend to defending those who invaded this Chamber in support of a cause that he represented?
Simon Hart
I shall say only that I am surprised that it took so long for that point to be made. I prefaced my contribution by saying that I was going to discuss legitimate protest, so I hope that that answers the hon. Gentleman’s question.
I want to discuss spontaneity. It is vital that we enable people who wish to do so to rise up in anger, frustration and exasperation and express their view loudly and lawfully in the minimum amount of time. If there was a problem with the previous legislation it was that the preparation time for protest was rather lengthy if people followed the measures sequentially. The Government’s proposals will ease that, which is why I am a big supporter, but it is right and proper to enable people who have read the papers one morning metaphorically to bang on the gates the next morning. If we prevent them from doing so we will fall into the trap to which most speakers have referred of setting one set of rules for our country while condemning those in other countries who adopt a different procedure on protests.
I have referred to the two occasions on which protests in which I was involved went wrong. The first took place in 2004, and there was a legitimate presence of angry protesters as well as of police to ensure the safety of the community. The protesters came that day with every intention of being peaceful, and the police policed the event with every intention of its remaining peaceful. However, Members who have taken part in a protest know that it is a potent and often high-temperature environment, and it does not take much to spark something that leads to a sequence of events which, in our case, led to 425 complaints from members of the public, about 60 people being treated in hospital for serious head injuries, a number of arrests, and an inquiry by the Independent Police Complaints Commission that lasted nearly a year, cost a fortune and regrettably resulted in a number of Metropolitan policemen being recommended for disciplinary action or worse. That was a thoroughly unsatisfactory conclusion to what should have been a perfectly legitimate protest.
We could debate the cause for hours, but I will suggest one particular reason why it ended up in that unsavoury position. Both parties were the victims of legal rigidity. In the case of the protesters, there was arguably not enough flexibility to enable nearly 20,000 people at one stage to engage in reasonable protest. From the police’s point of view, the confines or boundaries were set too tightly to enable them to adapt and adjust their policing as the protest unfolded over the day. When the IPCC report was eventually published, it focused on three things including, first, a complete breakdown of communications for technical reasons between the police and the protesters. That is not an issue for the Government—it is an issue for protesters and police in future—but the second and third reasons are important.
The IPCC confirmed without any doubt that the lack of loudspeaker equipment in the south-east corner of Parliament square led to an inability by the organisers and the police to communicate with a crowd that was contained and angry, which led to unfortunate downstream consequences. That happened because there was confusion about whether Westminster city council, I think, would allow us to have loudspeakers lest we contravene noise abatement conditions. In the circumstances, the police, in my humble opinion, should have had the operational ability to insist on having equipment on site that could have prevented that incident from arising in the first place.
Jeremy Corbyn
The hon. Gentleman is making an interesting point. During one of the Tamil demonstrations that I attended with a number of colleagues from the House, loudspeakers were not allowed for the demonstration. People needed to be moved, because there was a crush in one corner, and the police lent us loud hailers so that we could address the crowd. One could argue that that is breaking the law, but it was sensible and practical. We just need to be a bit more sensible, because there is a safety issue about being unable to communicate with a loud crowd.
Simon Hart
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. The point I am trying to make is that in such circumstances the police should not be encumbered in any way by having to refer to a local authority, some guidelines or a piece of statute. They should be able to make decisions that protect public safety and the interests of this building and of the demonstrators as an event unfolds. It was the inability to do that on the day in September 2004 that led directly to the unfortunate consequences I have described.
Dr Huppert
It is interesting to see the coalitions developing across the Chamber on shared interests.
The hon. Gentleman will presumably be pleased to see that clause 142(3)(a) states that for police purposes it is not an offence to proceed with such activity, which I think will allay his concerns. On a slightly broader point, has he seen the transcript of the discussions that the Joint Committee on Human Rights has had with the TUC and the Metropolitan police about the planning for the demonstration on 26 March, which looked at the use of loud hailers, other facilities and social media? Would he welcome that level of preparation for events so that problems can be planned for?
Simon Hart
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. The short answer to his question is yes, notwithstanding my earlier comments about the need for spontaneity in—perhaps smaller—events. Steps are being taken in the right direction. However, having been personally responsible for a number of events between 2000 and 2004, I know that we were always led to believe that lessons had been learned from previous protests, but it became quite clear that they had not.
In more recent events in and around Parliament square, and indeed at the G20 demonstrations, it was quite obvious that some of the findings of the IPPC report, which were produced several years ago, had not been implemented, which was unfortunate. Perhaps there is some value, despite the views of one or two Opposition Members, to having this discussion and debate yet again, because it would perhaps lead us a little closer to a situation that is in the interests of protesters first and foremost and parliamentarians last and least.
The third point made in the IPCC’s findings was loosely described as relating to lines. I recall only too vividly being told at my meeting with the responsible commander on the morning of the demonstration in September 2004 that there was an invisible line—a line on his order paper—across which protestors could not pass under any circumstances. It was a ludicrous situation, as he admitted. We explained that it was ludicrous because there was no way to guarantee safely with 20,000 people that none of them would at any stage drift across that line for one reason or another. Flexibility was needed, but there was none. The result was that when protestors did drift across the line, officers fulfilled their orders, which was absolutely right, and started to make arrests, which led to a sudden and irreversible rise in the temperature. That contributed to the transition from an angry but peaceful protest to one that fell apart and resulted in serious injuries for a number of protestors and career-threatening implications for the officers concerned.
John McDonnell
That is an extremely valid point. When a particular line is used to demarcate a geographical area, often the protest spills out into another area and matters become confusing. On that basis, I believe that the legislation will simply lead to encampments elsewhere. It is almost a provocation for other encampments breaking out around the city. We should watch Trafalgar square in future; we will be back here in a few months’ time, with Members urging us to bring forward further legislation to deal with other areas of London.
Simon Hart
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. He might be interested to learn that a week after the demonstration we held in September 2004 in Parliament square, the same angry army protested outside the Labour party conference in Brighton. It would be fair to say that the organisers—me—were getting quite nervous at that stage about what might happen in Brighton, but the lessons learned by Sussex police in those few short days in between the two protests were very evident when we got there, because they successfully achieved a flexible attitude to protestors, and as the temperature rose so they retreated, and vice versa.
The second point that the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) made, which I should address, and which the Metropolitan police acknowledged at the time and subsequently, is that although the law said one thing back in those days, which was, “You cannot march within a mile of the Palace of Westminster when Parliament is sitting,” its enforcement by the police would have been entirely foolhardy. They knew and made it very clear to us that, had they prevented legitimate and angry protestors coming to the gates of Parliament to make their point, the consequences might have been even worse.
I am encouraged by the fact that the Government are moving a significant, if not the whole, way towards a situation in which there is greater recognition of the arguments that I have set out—enabling, I hope, the police to exercise that operational flexibility which is so important, which was so lacking and which led so directly to very unfortunate injuries and consequences for a large number of people who were already angry and frustrated.
I endorse absolutely the comments made by pretty well every other speaker. We should not underestimate the anger and the frustration sometimes at the consequences of the decisions that we make in this House, or the helplessness felt by many people who perhaps reside a long way from here, who can play no part in the political process and for whom protest is the only way in which they can make their feelings loudly and clearly heard not just by us in here, but by the media and the wider public.
I support any measure that makes it easier for protestors to exercise that absolutely ancient and important right, and I am not persuaded by arguments, which I hope will be put not too seriously, that the tidiness of Parliament square for the royal wedding is somehow more important than the ability of people to protest. If in the next few weeks we make a decision that has profound consequences for very many people, and those very many people wish to make their feelings heard, why on earth should they not do so? If that happens to coincide with the royal wedding, I argue that their right to protest is far more important, and I am glad that the Government recognise that point and are enabling protest to take place legitimately.
Mr MacShane
I much appreciate the speech from the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart)—his apologia pro vita sua.
I am trying to find out who was responsible for the dramatic changes to Parliament in my short time here, including, for example, the security screen that we now have between us and the Public Gallery. That came about because somebody who felt passionately about the cause of Fathers 4 Justice also felt that he had the right to come in here and throw a pink powder over the Bench—actually, where the hon. Gentleman is sitting; it did not quite arrive on the Front Bench. As a result, we changed the security laws dramatically.
Then, people felt so passionately about fox hunting that an hon. Member allowed a protestor to infiltrate this very Chamber, and as a result we have much tougher security. In the name of protest, we thus have a denial of the right of British citizens to come freely and easily into this House of Commons. When I was first elected, not so long ago, I took an American intern to Central Lobby, where he watched people coming in. I told him, “Any citizen can come here and ask to see his Member of Parliament,” and he replied, “My God. You let your voters get that close?”
On Monday night, I hosted the Belarus Free Theatre with Mr Jude Law and Kevin Spacey, the two actors. It was a marvellous moment, except that our police—acting under orders; I do not blame them—kept out the men who had been booted out of Belarus by dictatorial policemen. They were not even allowed into our House of Commons in time, so we need to set in some context the importance of access to this Parliament for MPs and for citizens who want to exercise their parliamentary, political and constitutional right to talk to their MPs.
Dr Huppert
I am concerned about what the right hon. Gentleman has just said. Will he clarify whether the problem was that the police would not allow those people into Parliament, or that they did not get in in time because of inefficiencies in the queuing process?
Mr MacShane
My point is that we have now instituted such draconian security systems as a result of the invasion of this House—I do not think the hon. Gentleman was here at the time—and the attack from the Gallery that things have become all but impossible, and the police famously do not have the flexibility to allow certain people to come through ahead of ordinary—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. I know that the right hon. Gentleman is in full flow, but he will see that we have before us amendment 162 and a lot of other amendments. There is a lot of meat here, and he is on another meal. I ask him to restrict himself to the amendments.
Mr MacShane
Having enjoyed many happy meals with you in Strasbourg, Mr Deputy Speaker, I always thought we were sharing the same plate.
I will not enter into the question of reading out the names of those who have fallen in war, on which my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) animadverted at great length, and the curious proposition that if one person falls his name should be mentioned, but if 20 or 100 fall there are too many names to read out.
We return, then, to a very important point—the centrality of Parliament and all democratic institutions to which all people should have easy and free access. In several democracies, there is, for good reason, the notion of the parliamentary mile, which means that for approximately 1 mile—a given space—around a Parliament, there should be no protests or demonstrations, and lawmakers should be able to go into their Parliament without being shouted at, as we were here for a number of years by the Iraq war protester with the very loud loudspeaker. We should certainly be able to confront citizens who are protesting or on their way to attend their protests in Trafalgar square, Speakers’ Corner in Hyde park, or wherever. One only has to walk up Whitehall to see a demonstration outside the Prime Minister’s house every day, but a Parliament is not a pressure cooker; it is a place for deliberation.
I recall being outside the White House a few years ago when there was a protest about President Clinton’s policy on Haitian refugees, and Arthur Ashe, the tennis player, was arrested and taken away. Those protestors were very brave. They went there, they knew they were going to be arrested, and they were making a profound point. However, American law says that when the President is in the White House—or when Congress is sitting—people cannot organise demonstrations directly under his nose.
That is a very important principle that dates back to the 19th century—
Mr MacShane
Let me just finish my sentence, and then of course I will give way.
This is a very important principle going back to earlier times when there were huge pressures on parliamentarians. For example, fascists in France tried to stop the French National Assembly meeting in the 1930s. That is why the same rules apply here. I am not saying that any one individual is going to stop any of us, but it is reasonable to say that around Parliament we do not have people permanently demonstrating, and when Parliament is sitting we do not have people permanently trying to break into it.
Mr Mark Field
But surely the right hon. Gentleman recognises that this flies in the face of many of the great traditions of democracy that we have in this country. Nothing could be worse, in the current environment, than having the political class divorced ever more from the public at large.
Mr MacShane
I took part in Saturday’s demonstration, and that showed that the political class, at least those in it who care for public services, is not divorced—although part of it is, given that the Home Secretary said last week that the only march she had been on was to protect foxes, not to protect libraries and disabled people from cuts.
Our forefathers won the right to vote in the great demonstrations of the 1880s by shaking down the railings of Hyde park. Since my school and student days, I have marched, and marched again, in London, but I have not demanded to come and stay here permanently or to scream abuse at MPs coming into the House. I am happy to go up to Downing street to join protests that I associate myself with. That is right, fit and proper. This is not about the political class. Frankly, we have allowed a general degrading and devaluation of the role of MPs. The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr Field) is not disconnected. No hon. Member is disconnected: we go back to our constituencies and talk to far more people than any journalist, pontificator or other professional. I still say that we should protect the notion that Parliament is a special place and not just another venue for whatever protest people feel passionate about.
John McDonnell
It is important to put it on the record that no evidence has been presented and no representations have been put forward that allege that the encampment opposite Parliament has prevented Members of Parliament from entering the House. All the evidence that has been brought before us shows that there is sufficient legislation to ensure that legal action will be taken against anybody who does impede an MP. I am sure that my right hon. Friend is not trying to allege that that has happened.
Mr MacShane
I will take the intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn).
Jeremy Corbyn
My right hon. Friend seems to be drawing a distinction between demonstrations outside Parliament and elsewhere. Does he recall that a number of MPs, including me, were arrested outside South Africa house in 1984? The police decided to prosecute us, bizarrely, for behaviour that was offensive to a foreign mission, to which we happily pleaded guilty, given that the protest was against the apartheid regime in South Africa. The court found us innocent on the basis that we had a moral right to protest. As a result, there was a permanent picket outside South Africa house, despite many objections by the then South African embassy. That played its small part in ending apartheid. Surely my right hon. Friend recognises that the right to permanent protest is enshrined in judicial precedent in this country.
Mr MacShane
Yes; if one goes to the Chinese embassy in Portland place, the Falun Gong are always there. I am not talking about the other streets of London, and I am not talking about Downing street; I am talking exclusively about the law-making building of our nation, which requires slightly different consideration. I do not see that as the political class dividing itself from the population. I want more protest. However, that is different from saying that one particular issue can stay there for ever. One could be flippant and say that we could have a rota of issues. There could be a right-wing protest, when the fascists, the British National party and the UK Independence party can all come and make their little points.
I think that we are conspiring—perhaps that is an exaggerated word—to devalue the centrality of democratically elected legislatures when we allow protest and noise. Of course it is not preventing anybody from getting in, although hon. Members were prevented from coming in by the foxhunting protest.
Mr MacShane
I will give way briefly to the hon. Members for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) and for Cities of London and Westminster, and then I must finish.
Dr Huppert
I am having trouble following the logic of the right hon. Gentleman’s argument. He is right to say that this is a place of deliberation, and I think we all share the belief that there should not be protests inside this Chamber, other than those made by Members of Parliament. However, we are not talking about that, we are not talking about protests in the Members’ Lobby or Central Lobby, and we are not even talking about allowing protests within the precincts of the Palace. We are talking only about protests outside the Palace of Westminster. That is outside of where the deliberation is happening. I would love him to explain why he thinks it is all right to protest outside Downing street, but not outside the Palace.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. Being an apprentice Deputy Speaker, I should have reminded the right hon. Gentleman the first time he failed to do so that he must respond to the intervention that he has taken.
Mr MacShane
I am so sorry. I was just trying to put the interventions together to save time—your time, Mr Deputy Speaker.
I shall try to explain my point to the hon. Member for Cambridge. It is a concept common in many countries, and Britain can exclude itself from it, that the legislators of the democracy should be able to come to the area around the legislature—not around the Executive, not outside Downing street, not in the great centres where people gather such as Trafalgar square or Hyde park, and not anywhere else, such as outside embassies or town halls, but outside Parliament—without being told directly how or on what to vote at that moment. Anybody can come to my surgery on a Saturday or write to me to tell me how to vote. We have colluded in saying that Parliament needs to be protected from the people, which is why we have the absurd security systems that are now in place. If we do not re-establish the principle of parliamentarianism being something that requires reflection, debate and deliberation, with all of us voting in the Aye or the No Lobby to pass a law, and if we say that Parliament is simply an adjunct to a process of protest, it will weaken Parliament.
I will take the next intervention, but I will then sit down because other colleagues may want to speak.
Mr Field
I will be very brief. Does the right hon. Gentleman not recognise that many of us fear that this will be the thin end of the wedge? The moment we say that Parliament is special, people can say that every local government chamber is special, then that Downing street is special, then that all our courts are special. We have a passion and a love for living in an open, democratic society. I disagree profoundly with many of the protestors who have been in my constituency, and obviously with the violent disturbances, but peaceful protestors are the essence of the democracy that we all hold close to our heart.
Mr MacShane
I am happy to accept the sincerity of the hon. Gentleman’s point of view. Arguments have been held for 200 or 300 years about whether Parliament is different from the Executive, and whether elected representatives have something called privilege—not just privilege to speak in Parliament but privilege to come here and make up their minds on how to speak and vote as they think best.
We have been talking about an individual, and I admire his sacrifice over a number of years, but let us remember what happened not so long ago when passions were so high that the very security of this place was changed. As a result, the one, 100, 1,000 or 10,000 demonstrators who had filled Parliament square for their particular moment, expressing their right to protest directly to parliamentarians within the narrow area around Parliament, found that they had prevented many other citizens from being able to enter freely into the House of Commons to discuss matters with us calmly and peacefully.
There is a difference of opinion, and I respect everybody’s point of view. I am just dismayed that compared with when I came into the House, the level of security has changed, denying people access to MPs, as a result of protests that have gone too far and gone wrong. That has caused us some damage. I see quite good rules working in other democracies. If anybody wants to be arrested in Parliament square, or walk through it to make a protest and move on, so be it. However, the notion that there should be a permanent encampment or that Parliament square should be a place where anybody can come to protest at any time goes just a bit too far.
Michael Ellis
I respect the views of the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell). I do not agree with them, but I respect them and the way in which he expressed them. However, I strongly support the provisions in the Bill.
I respect the right to protest, but a number of speakers in the debate have conflated or confused the issue of protest with that of the encampment outside. This is not a personality-driven debate, or it should not be, and one should not sentimentalise the issues involved. I wish to focus, I hope succinctly, on the rights and views of people other than the handful of individuals who have been camped outside for a prolonged period.
People have the right of quiet enjoyment of Parliament square and the facilities therein. I remind hon. Members that the statues have been put up over many years by public subscription. The public have a right to enjoy them, but for at least the past six months there have been fences around them. The taxpayers—not only the residents of the cities of Westminster and London, but people who come from far and wide to Parliament square and Parliament—have the right to use the park, and perhaps have a lunch sandwich.
Some consideration ought also to be given to the servants and agents of this place, and to the police who help to guard it and have to stand in very close proximity to the protest all day for month after month.
Michael Ellis
I am sorry, I cannot give way, because I have been told that I have only two minutes.
The reality is that the encampment is not a traditional form of protest, as it has been described. In my respectful submission, the problem does not have much to do with aesthetics, either. I, for one, am not really interested in what the protest looks like. I am interested in the rights of others to use the square without their quiet enjoyment being obstructed. The nuisance factor also has to be taken into consideration.
The question of sleeping impedimenta is one of fact and degree. We frequently ask police constables to exercise their discretion in many areas of law, some of which are difficult to define, which is part of the reason why we must give them discretion. The term “reasonable” cannot be easily susceptible to definition, because what is “reasonable” will vary depending on the individual circumstances of the event.
We in this country pride ourselves on protest and I certainly support the right to protest, but there must be some balance. Nowhere else in the world would put up with that type of protest over such a prolonged period. That does not mean that other countries are undemocratic for not putting up with 10 years of an encampment—of course they are democratic. They proudly maintain their democracy, and so would we, but we must balance the right of the handful of people who wish to live in Parliament square to the disadvantage of others, and bear in mind the rights of the latter.
Hon. Members have asked, “What harm is being done by the protest?” Criminal damage is one example of harm. Anything that causes action to be taken by another amounts to criminal damage if it means undertaking repair work. Nuisance, noise, hygiene and health and safety issues, and the loss and effect on tourism, also indicate harm. Such persistent protests do harm. We seek not to stop demonstrations, but just to stop people permanently encamping and sleeping in the square, and disguising that as a right to protest.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
I shall be very brief and make only a couple of comments, because the Minister will need a few minutes to speak, and my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) will no doubt wish to respond to the debate for a couple of minutes before 5 o’clock. This has been a good debate; we also had one in Committee, when hon. Members on both sides raised many of the issues that we have debated this afternoon.
The Opposition support the Government in the repeal of the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 provisions. On both sides of the House, there is a general recognition that despite the intention, those provisions went much further than any of us would have wanted. For example, a woman was arrested for reading out the names of the war dead. Many of us—perhaps all of us—thought that inappropriate.
The Opposition agree with the repeal of the SOCPA provisions, but our position has always been that there is a need to balance the right to protest with the right of others to enjoy Parliament, and to protect their freedom, as the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr Field) said. We want to balance freedoms and to protect the right to protest.
In Committee, we concentrated on the workability of the Bill. I say to the Minister that considerable problems remain. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington and my hon. Friends. He has carefully drafted, obviously with some help, a set of alternatives. I do not agree with his alternative, but he has also sought to address some of the problems that the Government seek to address.
I am surprised that the Minister has tabled only two Government amendments—57 and 58—to deal with one of the major problems with the Bill, namely that reasonable force can be used not only by a constable, but by an authorised officer of the council. In the Opposition’s view, the amendments simply do not go far enough. If my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington were minded to press amendment 185 to a Division, he would find support on the Opposition Front Bench.
Why do the Government amendments not go far enough? The Bill still allows an authorised officer to do all sorts of things with respect to activities in the prohibited area of Parliament square. The hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) pointed out that even with the Government amendment, the Bill still gives the authorised officer—the council employee—significant powers to seize and retain property in the area described in clause 144(1). That is an extension of the power that one would expect authorised officers to have in any circumstances. This is the policing of public protest—not littering, loud music or neighbour nuisance—and the involvement of anybody other than a warranted police officer would be a dangerous extension of power to people who are not servants of the Crown.
James Brokenshire
This useful debate has given the House the opportunity to discuss an important issue. We made it clear when we introduced our proposals that it was right and proper that the House should have a proper say on the Bill’s provisions relating to Parliament square, and I believe that the House has had that say this afternoon.
There are clearly issues of agreement on both sides of the House. The right to protest is a cherished and important right that the Government seek to uphold, and it is a positive step forward if the Opposition Front-Bench team accept that fact and accept that the draconian approach that in many ways had become their hallmark was a wrong turn. I certainly welcome therefore the comments from the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) about scrapping SOCPA, which had a very chilling effect on the right to protest. That is why one of the fundamental effects of the Bill will be to scrap those provisions and to return to treating Parliament square the same, in many ways, as the rest of the country.
The question before us relates to the extent of the right to protest. I think that it has been accepted that it is not an exhaustive right or something that we can do to the nth degree, and that there are limits to the right to protest. In her evidence to the Bill Committee, Shami Chakrabati made that point very clearly. We are discussing the limits to and the extent of that right. We have to take a step back and say, “We have that right to protest, but what is the issue at hand?” The issue at hand is that the right to protest does not mean the right to permanent encampment. That is at the heart of what we are seeking to address and why the provisions in the Bill are structured in the way they are.
I hear those who say that it does not make any difference, that it is not a problem and that we should not be seeking to introduce changes in respect of Parliament square and the surrounding area that contrast with the rest of the country. However, I would make the point that the square has been fenced off for six months to allow remedial and repair work, and has therefore been unavailable, which has clearly affected not just people’s access to it, but the right to protest there. That is why it is important that we examine the issue, and why the proposals in the Bill reflect that approach.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
Is it not true that the vast majority of the public would think that any encampment outside Parliament should go? I have heard a lot of speeches this afternoon about why it should stay, but the vast majority of our public would say, “Get rid of it. It shouldn’t be there.”
James Brokenshire
The act of protest does not by default give individuals the right to erect permanent encampments in Parliament square or on the pavements outside it. That is the essence of what we are proposing. We want to protect the right to protest, but that does not mean that we endorse the permanent encampment that has arisen and that, in essence, has deprived others of access to that space.
I heard the points that the hon. Member for Gedling made about practicability and workability—in some ways he summarised the reasonable discussions and detailed debate that we had in Committee. However, we have had discussions with the Metropolitan police—he will be aware of the exchange of correspondence—and I have spoken to Assistant Commissioner Lynne Owens in recent days, in advance of this afternoon’s debate. One of the challenges has been about differences of ownership, between the Greater London authority and Westminster city council, and ensuring that the proper protocols are agreed. However, with those protocols in place, our strong belief is that our proposals are workable; otherwise we would not be bringing them before the House.
I hear the debate about the language and the drafting. The Government recognise that any new law will be robustly tested by determined individuals—indeed, that would be the case for any proposals. We have therefore sought to capture attempts to circumvent the legislation that have been raised with us by the police. However, that necessarily carries the potential of capturing others, which is why we have allowed some discretion, as it is important that the provisions should be used proportionately.
Let me turn to the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell). I suppose that the debate comes down to the context and this issue of a permanent encampment, which we think is so significant. As we have heard, Parliament square is a world heritage site, surrounded by important historic buildings such as Westminster abbey. Given its location opposite the Houses of Parliament and the limited space, we are seeking to balance the competing and legitimate needs of members of the public who come to the area as visitors or protesters, with those of Members of Parliament and others who need to be able to carry out their daily work and enjoy the space.
The Government are clear that no one particular person or group of persons should take over the area to the detriment of others. Encampments remaining on Parliament square in defiance of the byelaws have caused significant damage to the garden and the space, which has underlined the unworkability of the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act thus far. The encampments have required considerable remedial work by the Greater London authority, during which time nobody has been able to enjoy the unique space. In relation to the democracy village occupation, the courts found that Parliament square gardens were not a suitable area for any sort of encampment. More recently, the High Court has said:
“Parliament Square Gardens is not a suitable location for prolonged camping; such camping is incompatible with the function, lawful use and character”
of Parliament square gardens, and
“it is also inconsistent with the proper management of the area as a whole”.
The Government and, I think, most Members of this House and the other place would agree with the court’s findings.
Encampments prevent the public’s enjoyment of this unique location and deter people from visiting the area. They even deter and prevent others from protesting, although I have heard the points that have been made in that regard. Let me stress again that we are not seeking to prevent people from protesting on or around Parliament square. We are not seeking to put time limits on protests or to regulate them in that way.
The package of measures in part 3 is aimed at preventing encampments, at dealing with disruptive activity by anyone on Parliament square and at giving the police and authorised officers of the Greater London authority and Westminster city council powers to ensure that Parliament square can be enjoyed by all. So, for example, anyone who pitches a tent in the controlled area defined in the Bill may be directed to take it down. If they fail to comply with the direction, the tent may be seized and they may be charged with an offence.
I welcome the constructive debate that we had in Committee, during which Opposition Members recognised the problem with the current SOCPA provisions and acknowledged the need for new measures. We have heard this afternoon, however, that some of them do not agree with our proposals and continue to have issues. We have introduced a co-ordinated package of provisions that will link into byelaws to ensure that the issues of displacement that have been identified are addressed.
We have listened and reflected on what has been said, which is why the Government have tabled amendments 57 and 58, which deal with authorised officers using powers of force. We continue to believe that the right of authorised officers properly to manage and support the activities in Parliament square, and people’s enjoyment of the square, requires them to have the ability to give directions and to seize items, but not to use reasonable force, because that is the role of the police. That is why we have tabled amendments 57 and 58. They reflect the point that has been highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) and others inside and outside the House. We believe that the package in the Bill strikes a proportionate balance.
We will continue our discussions with the police, with Westminster city council and with the Greater London authority on the management of Parliament square, and on any moves that might result in more co-ordinated ownership and management of the site. Fundamentally, we believe in the right to protest, but that right does not mean permanent encampments. The measures before the House are proportionate and appropriate, because they will enable those who want to protest to have their say outside the House while ensuring that that does not result in the permanent despoiling of Parliament square.
John McDonnell
I wish to press amendments 162 and 185 to a vote. The debate has been helpful in that it has reassured me that we support the right to protest. I look forward to Members joining me in protests in the coming months. There is a disagreement over the difference between protest and permanent protest. There is a tradition of effective permanent protest in this country, and that is the tradition that we are seeking to support.
There is a basic human right, enacted in legislation in this Parliament, to assembly, association and speech. Members must have due cause if they want to tamper with that right in any way. If there is an argument that the encampment causes noise, nuisance or any form of obstruction, legislation already exists to deal with that. Indeed, the Minister has just demonstrated that the court is now dealing with the matter in relation to the grassed area. There is therefore no need for the House to waste its time in introducing specific legislation for a small encampment of principled people who are reminding us of the consequences of our actions in this House.
Let me advise Members and warn that we will come back again on this issue. What we are doing here is counter-productive: it will cause further conflict; it will put police officers in an impossible position and council officers in an even worse position. The encampment will move elsewhere and the Government will then have to come back to the matter, as the last Government tried to do with their Civil Contingencies Bill to ban protest elsewhere and outside other public buildings. I believe that this is an error.
I wish the coalition parties had adhered to their promise before the election to—
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
I start by thanking the hon. Members who sat on the Public Bill Committee for the scrutiny they have given this important piece of legislation. I thank in particular my ministerial colleagues, the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice and the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), for their work in Committee. I also thank all hon. Members who contributed on Report, when we had further detailed debate about the impact and implications of the Bill. In addition, I thank all the officials and Officers and staff of the House who have enabled the Committee’s work to take place.
The Prime Minister recently said that we had the best police force in the world, and I agree, but that does not mean that there is no room for improvement. The Bill will help our courageous police in the fight against crime, and police and crime commissioners will reconnect the police with the public they serve. An overhaul of the licensing regime will help the police and local communities to crack down on problem drinking premises, and temporary banning powers will stop the harm from so-called legal highs. Powers to deal with permanent encampments will give Parliament square back to the British public and a fairer process for universal jurisdiction arrest warrants will allow Britain to engage properly with prominent international statesmen.
Chris Bryant
Those words will not do her any good I am afraid, but I am grateful to the Home Secretary for giving way.
I am sure we all agree that we have the best police force in the world. Has the Home Secretary come across Chief Constable Steve Finnigan of the Lancashire constabulary, who has said that
“we can do an awful lot of work around back-office, around efficiency, around bureaucracy and certainly in Lancashire, in my force, we are doing a lot of that, but we cannot leave the frontline untouched and that is because of the scale of the cuts”?
Will the Home Secretary be straight with the British people and say that there are going to be front-line cuts because of what she is bringing in?
Mrs May
Many chief constables have made the point that what is happening will not mean that there will be no change to front-line services but that they can protect front-line services. That is exactly what chief constables such as the chief constable of Greater Manchester have made clear. There might need to be reform in front-line services, but that does not mean a reduction in the front-line services available to members of the public.
Directly elected police and crime commissioners will bring real accountability to local policing. They will ensure that the police focus on what local people want and not on what the national Government think they want.
Yvette Cooper
I want to follow up that point with the Home Secretary. She is right, I have the full quote to which my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) referred, which was from the “Today” programme. Chief Constable Finnigan was asked:
“You are chief constable of Lancashire which has a bit of both”—
meaning urban and rural areas—
“are you going to have to reduce frontline policing in order to meet the budget cuts that the government wants to see?”
His answer was: “I absolutely am”. Faced with that categorical statement from a chief constable, will she admit that front-line services are being hit as a result of her decisions?
Mrs May
I have to say to the right hon. Lady that her intervention and that of the hon. Member for Rhondda betray the difficulty that the Labour party has had, both in government and in opposition, with this issue of front-line services. Chief constables such as Chief Constable Steve Finnigan have said that they are determined to protect the front-line service that is provided to members of the public. There is a difference between the service that can be provided and the number of police who are there, and the trouble with Labour is that it has always focused on numbers. What we have seen recently is that there are great variations in, for example, invisibility and availability of the police who are out there on the streets being seen by members of the public. Percentages can vary from 9% of police being available and visible to the public to 17%, as in Merseyside. If that highest figure was followed by every force, then just under 8,000 more officers would be visible and available to members of the public. This is about the efficient use of resources. Police and crime commissioners, as I have said, will bring accountability to local policing.
Mrs May
I might be able to help the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Gentleman in a few minutes, as I am going to make a specific comment in relation to Wales. I suspect that they are going to ask me about Wales, so it might be in their interest to wait until then before they intervene.
Penny Mordaunt
I have been through police numbers with my chief constable in Hampshire, and there is not going to be any change to police numbers in community policing and in the policing of serious crime, or in the number of police who deal with sex offenders.
Mrs May
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. That is a good example, and there are other examples of forces such as Gloucestershire, where the number of officers visible and available has been increased by the chief constable as a result of what he has been able to do in other ways to deal with his budget.
We have already given communities across England and Wales access to detailed street-level crime and antisocial behaviour data. Only two months after launching the country’s first ever nationwide street-level crime maps, the website has received over 400 million hits, so we are already giving power back to the public. The Bill takes that local accountability to the next stage. The Association of Chief Police Officers has been fully engaged in the process of refining our proposals. We have listened to its suggestions, and to those of hon. Members. We have responded and been able to accommodate some of those suggestions.
We have included provision for each chief officer to become a corporation sole, which will allow them to employ staff and will give them greater control over their own force. We have strengthened the proposed oversight arrangements by including provisions for candidates to be subject to confirmation hearings by police and crime panels, who will be able to veto an appointment with a three-quarters majority. We have amended the Bill so that anyone who has been convicted of an imprisonable offence at any time will be unable to stand as a PCC. Any PCC convicted of such an offence would automatically be disqualified from office.
We have made a commitment with ACPO, the Association of Police Authorities and the Association of Police Authority Chief Executives to develop a protocol setting out the distinct role and powers of chief officers, PCCs and other bodies in the new policing landscape. It will be my responsibility as Home Secretary to issue a strategic policing requirement for the response to national threats. These are all sensible and constructive changes that will give us a better Bill and ultimately an even better police service. I thank ACPO and hon. Members for their help with that.
I am delighted that in Committee, the Opposition conceded the principle of democratic reform in policing. Unfortunately, they are still suggesting the wrong type of reform. Only 7% of people have even heard of police authorities, and only 8% of local authority wards in England and Wales are represented on their police authority. Police authorities are not effective at doing what they are supposed to do. Fewer than one in three police authorities inspected last year were found to be performing well. They have neither the democratic mandate to set police priorities nor the capability to scrutinise police performance, so tinkering at the edges of police authorities, as the Opposition spokesmen seemed to suggest in Committee, will not do.
Geraint Davies
On democratic accountability, does the Home Secretary accept that voter turnout is likely to be much higher in low-crime, leafy suburbs than in high-crime, poorer areas, so the democratic mandate is likely to contradict directly the need to prioritise the focus on crime? What is more, people will lose access to the interface with MPs, Assembly Members, councillors and so on, so there will be less democracy, less crime prevention and more cost.
Mrs May
I completely reject what the hon. Gentleman says, particularly the idea that people who live in high-crime areas will somehow have less incentive to take an interest in the way in which their local area is policed or in going out to vote for PCCs. It is in precisely those areas that people are concerned about what is happening to local policing. We need a properly elected and accountable individual, with the mandate, the capabilities and the powers to set police priorities locally and to hold their chief constable to account for police performance.
Mrs May
If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I am conscious of time and wish to make a little more progress.
The Opposition’s scepticism about the merits of directly elected police and crime commissioners will be tested when it comes to deciding whether to field candidates for the elections next year. Indeed, according to media reports, the former Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith, intends to run as a candidate. Before moving on, I would like to make it clear that responsibility for policing and policing governance in Wales is reserved to this House. This House has determined that the provisions for police and crime commissioners should be implemented in Wales and in England. There cannot be two tiers of governance for a police service whose officers and assets so regularly cross the regional boundary between England and Wales in tackling crime.
Mrs May
The right hon. Gentleman may wish to intervene after I have completed my point about the vote that took place in the National Assembly for Wales. I think that it is regrettable that the Assembly did not agree to the legislative consent motion that would have allowed police and crime panels to reflect the unique nature of local government in Wales, as we wanted. That would have included giving the Welsh Assembly Government a seat on the police and crime panels in Wales.
Mr Llwyd
The reason why Assembly Members did not endorse it is quite simply because they do not believe in the idea of a directly elected police commissioner. They did not want the panels and so voted against the proposal. Unfortunately, this place decided to ride roughshod over their wishes and the wishes of democratically elected people in Wales, thus showing little of the respect agenda and acting in a hugely undemocratic way.
Mrs May
That is not correct. It is precisely because we respect the Assembly’s decision that we are removing police and crime panels from local government structures in Wales. The Assembly had the opportunity to put in place a legislative consent motion that would have enabled that to take place. Such a motion was tabled by the Welsh Assembly Government, but they then chose not to support it, even though they had put it forward. As a result, the view of the Welsh Assembly was that police and crime panels should not form part of the local government structure in Wales. Instead, the PCPs will be freestanding bodies.
I want to make it clear that in taking a power to appoint those freestanding bodies I will not be telling, instructing or forcing any authority to do anything. I will invite local authorities to nominate a member to the PCP for each force area, and if an authority fails to nominate a member, I will invite members directly while having regard to the political balance within the force area. I think that the amendments will ensure that the appropriate checks and balances on police and crime commissioners can apply in all force areas in England and in Wales.
Mr Speaker
Order. I am listening carefully to the Home Secretary, who has given way generously, which is appreciated by the House, but I gently point out to both Front Benches that there are some Back Benchers who would like the chance of a snippet as well if the opportunity presents itself.
Mrs May
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
We have also taken the opportunity in the Bill, as Members can see, to make improvements to the police complaints system. There are of course other important aspects to the Bill, notably those relating to licensing. I think that Labour’s disastrous Licensing Act 2003 made the problem of binge drinking in this country worse, not better. Far from giving us the continental café culture that we were promised at the time, the Act did nothing to help police and local communities in their ongoing fight against alcohol-fuelled crime and disorder. That is why the Bill will help to turn the tide by ensuring that all those affected by licensed premises have a chance to have a say in the licensing process, allowing early morning restriction orders and the late-night levy on licensed premises opening after midnight to help pay for late-night policing and other services, such as taxi marshals or street wardens.
We have brought forward an amendment to introduce locally set licensing fees so that the fees can achieve what they were intended to, which is to recover fully the costs of licensing authorities in discharging their duties. I think that local government will feel that this is long overdue. We have also repealed the previous Administration’s legislation on alcohol disorder zones, and there was overwhelming support in our consultation for doing that. Those measures, together with a number of others, show that we are committed to stopping the harm caused by alcohol abuse.
As well as measures to tackle alcohol abuse, we will be providing powers to crack down on the damage caused by so-called legal highs. The Bill introduces the power to make year-long temporary class drug orders, which will allow us to take swift action to ban temporarily substances that have been specifically developed to get around existing drugs legislation but that can still cause significant harm.
I hope that the whole House will agree that for too long Parliament square has been subjected to unacceptable disruption and damage from the long-term encampment.
Mrs May
No, the whole House does not agree, and I should have pointed out that the hon. Gentleman made his views very clear in our previous debate and through the amendments that he spoke to.
The Bill contains, I think, a tough but proportionate package of measures to deal with encampments and other disruptive activity, and we have responded to Members’ concerns about the powers for authorised officers.
The Bill also makes sensible changes to the procedures for obtaining an arrest warrant for universal jurisdiction offences. We have heard the objections from a small number of hon. Members on the matter, but the Government continue to believe that the requirement to seek the agreement of the Director of Public Prosecutions that a case has a realistic chance of success is a fair and proportionate measure.
The Bill is a balanced package of measures to tackle real problems in our society. It includes directly elected police and crime commissioners, to give people back power over policing locally and to help to cut crime; tougher rules on licensing and drugs to help stop the harm that alcohol-fuelled disorder and legal highs can cause; and appropriate powers to restore the right to peaceful protest outside the mother of Parliaments, while removing the long-term encampments that cause so much damage, disruption and distress. We have had very good scrutiny of, and good debates about, the Bill. I believe that it is a very good Bill, and I commend it to the House.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
After 50 hours of debate and evidence, the Commons stage of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill has come to a close. The Members from all parts who endured the Committee stage will doubtless be delighted that in 19 minutes they will be released from custody. The Policing and Criminal Justice Minister will, I am sure, be relieved to have reached the end of this round of interrogation and hope to be released without charge, with his DNA destroyed and his fingerprints wiped.
I thank all Opposition Members for their work, but I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), aka Station Sergeant Coaker, who has ably led our investigative team, and of course to my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami), Custody Sergeant Tami, who has granted but few bail applications and always on the toughest terms.
Members have had the pleasure of debating the details of pub drinking, the definitions of a duvet and whether a toothbrush counts as sleeping equipment, and during the passage of the Bill we have welcomed some of the Government’s measures to which the Home Secretary referred, such as those on supporting local government, on licensing and on universal jurisdiction.
Other measures still have us baffled, however. The last time the Home Secretary spoke in the House on legislation she told us that the Government offered
“a chance to roll back the creeping intrusion of the state into our everyday lives, and to return individual freedoms to the heart of our legislation.”—[Official Report, 1 March 2011; Vol. 524, c. 205.]
Today, she has defended a Bill that lets councils leap to the barricades when their byelaws are breached. She will support them in confiscating dogs that foul verges, guitars that are played near churches and even shoes that leave mud on the pavements. More importantly, she has supported a Bill that puts at risk centuries of independent policing, free from political interference, and concentrates considerable policing powers in the hands of one individual with hardly any checks and balances. That is hardly a defence of traditional British liberties.
Mrs May
I hesitate to interrupt what started as a comic turn by the right hon. Lady, but she knows full well that throughout the debate on the Bill we have been at great pains to ensure that there is operational independence for chief officers and for forces. We will defend that operational independence. The police and crime commissioners do not have policing powers; they have powers to ensure that the police are accountable, and respond to local people.
Yvette Cooper
That is what the right hon. Lady says, but where is the protocol? Time and again we have been told that there will be some sort of code of practice or some kind of protocol to reassure people that there will be operational independence, but where is it? We have not yet seen it, and the House is being asked to let the Bill go through without being given the opportunity to vote on such a protocol or agreement when it is reached. A draft has been given to the Association of Chief Police Officers, yet this week ACPO still raised some serious concerns about the way in which impartial policing will be protected, and that leaves us with considerable suspicions that she is not yet close to reaching an agreement with ACPO about how the operational protocol will perform. I have to say to the Home Secretary that asking the House to give consent to this Bill without providing crucial reassurances about the operational independence of our police is frankly irresponsible in the light of the traditional and historic British liberties that she has previously been so keen to defend.
During these 50 hours of debate, the Bill has not changed in its fundamentals. This period follows one in which crime fell by over 40%, public confidence in policing went up, and substantial improvements were made in the fight against crime. Yet instead of building on those improvements made under the Labour Government, this Government instead want to launch a massive experiment in governance alongside the steepest cuts in many generations.
The Government are putting considerable policing powers in the hands of individual politicians without any of the serious safeguards or checks and balances that are needed. We do not support the approach of elected police commissioners. During the passage of the Bill, we have tried to suggest ways of limiting the damage and providing additional checks and balances, yet each time they have been rejected. People want responsive and accountable policing, but they also want impartial policing that is accountable to the rule of law—a tradition secured in Britain since Peel. The Government face a grave challenge from the most senior police officers in the country, who have argued this week that that tradition is being put at risk by the Bill. ACPO said that
“the developing framework of safeguards is too undeveloped and uncertain, and in several respects too weak, to be confident that it will effectively ensure that this Peelian principle will not be compromised.”
That is a very serious charge.
We still wait for the protocol and for other explanations of how this will work. This is about the impartiality of our police force and the public perception of that impartiality. For the first time, policing powers will be concentrated in the hands of individual politicians, with hardly any checks and balances on what they do. The Home Secretary at least has to answer to Parliament. She has to persuade her Cabinet colleagues. She can be scrutinised, she can be challenged, and she can even be sacked if she makes a real mess of it—which I am sure, of course, that she will not—but a police and crime commissioner is there for four years, with just a toothless watchdog to keep guard in between.
Mrs May
The right hon. Lady is continuing to use the term “policing powers” in relation to the responsibilities of the police and crime commissioners. That is inaccurate and wrong. These individuals will not be “policing”—they will be elected to hold the chief constable to account to ensure that the local voice is heard and that what local people want in policing is being undertaken. There will be checks and balances through the police and crime panels. She talks about politicians having a relationship with the chief constable in relation to operational independence. Politicians already have a relationship with the chief constable through the police authority.
Yvette Cooper
Unfortunately, none of those reassurances has been enough to convince the most senior chief constables in the land that their operational independence will be safeguarded. That is the primary issue that this House should be worried about. We do not think that the Home Secretary has done enough to, for example, provide enough powers for the police and crime panels to allow them a stronger role as checks and balances in the system. Time and again, she has not provided enough safeguards for national policing. She will know that some experts have raised concerns about corruption, too. Of course, the public do not want this either. A YouGov poll commissioned for Liberty found that 65% of people preferred to have a chief constable reporting to a police authority, compared with 15% who wanted her reforms.
Then, of course, there is the cost: £100 million to be spent on elections and bureaucracy at a time when 2,000 of the most experienced officers are being forced into early retirement. If she ditched the police and crime commissioners and put that money back into policing, she could save almost a third of those jobs.
Yvette Cooper
I will give way if the right hon. Gentleman will tell us what he would do to safeguard the jobs of the 2,000 experienced police officers whom he is pushing off the front line as a result of his cuts.
Nick Herbert
The right hon. Lady challenged us on cost. Can she tell us how much her proposal for directly elected police authority chairs would cost, and is she aware that it would cost considerably more than our proposal?
Yvette Cooper
My proposal is to ditch all of it, and that would save £100 million. [Interruption.] I am afraid that it is. We have offered Government Members several ways to limit the damage of their proposals if they want to protect British freedoms. If they really want to do something sensible, they should save £100 million by ditching it altogether. That is what we will be voting for this evening.
Most importantly, this drastic re-engineering at the top of policing—this massive experiment in governance—comes in the middle of the deepest cuts that police forces have had to face for many generations; at a time when 12,500 officers and 15,000 police staff will go; at a time when a report by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary shows that 95% of police officers are not in back-office work; and at a time when front-line services across the country are being hit. If the Home Secretary and the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice continue to deny that front-line services are being hit, they will just show how out of touch they are, not just with the police but with communities across the country who can already see changes happening in their areas and know exactly who is to blame. We know that neighbourhood police officers who want to stay in their jobs are being cut, and that steep cuts are being made in probation, youth services and action to prevent crime.
We know why the Home Secretary really wants police and crime commissioners: so she has someone else to blame when it all goes badly wrong. These policies were not the Home Secretary’s idea. It was not her idea to cut 20% from the police—it was the Chancellor’s, but she did not fight to stop it. It was not her idea to bring in police and crime commissioners—it was the Prime Minister’s, but she did not stand up against it. It was not her proposal to cut DNA use and limit the power of the police—it was the Deputy Prime Minister’s, but she did not prevent it. She is ducking the big battles and is not standing up for people across the country, who need a Home Secretary who will defend their views. She is the Home Secretary, and in the end she carries the can. On Second Reading, she claimed that that crime would be cut as a result of these reforms. The truth is that she is starting to fear that the opposite is happening, and she needs someone to blame.
The clouds are gathering over the Government’s crime and policing plans, and we have raised the warning. We will vote against these plans today, just as we will vote against the police cuts next week. Ministers are creating a perfect storm; at some point it will blow, and it will be communities across the country who pay the price.
Mr Speaker
Order. A number of Members still wish to contribute and time is extremely limited. I appeal to the next Member who speaks to show consideration for others who wish to contribute.
Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con)
As the only Member of this House who is a member of a police authority, I congratulate Ministers on this Bill and welcome it. The Home Secretary made it clear on Monday that she wanted elected commissioners “in charge”. She said just now that commissioners will make sure that what local people want to happen in policing will happen. That is to be welcomed.
Unfortunately, Opposition Members are on the wrong side of this debate. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), said that
“ACPO is clearly telling the Minister that he needs to amend the Bill”—[Official Report, 30 March 2011; Vol. 526, c. 404.]
Apparently, the Association of Chief Police Officers thinks that
“the Bill places too much emphasis on local considerations giving disproportionate power to the”
elected commissioner. But it is this House that decides, not ACPO. The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice has said that we have to rebalance the tripartite system and put greater emphasis on the local and democratic element because too much power has gone to the centre. He was too diplomatic to say it, but ACPO has taken that power as much as the Home Office, and it needs to be rebalanced.
We will attempt to reach agreement on this protocol, and Ministers are no doubt working hard on that. We believe, of course, that in individual investigations and arrests there has to be complete independence for the police, and that politicians should have no influence in that. However, in wider issues such as policing policy, the budget and the priorities, it is surely right that there should be democratic control and oversight.
Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)
I welcome my hon. Friend’s remarks, and associate myself with them. I also welcome the way that he set out the law on operational independence yesterday. Does he agree that it is vital that senior police officers and Opposition Members accept the legitimacy of elected representatives ensuring that the public get the policing that they deserve?
Mark Reckless
Of course I accept that, and I thank my hon. Friend for his comments.
In the short time available, I want to make one point about an aspect of the Bill that I disagree with and how it is to be implemented, and that is the setting of the precept. There is a great focus on having more local democratic control, but there is perhaps some misunderstanding about how the panel will work in relation to the precept.
We have heard that Liberal Democrat Members want a strong panel, and that there is currently something called a veto in the Bill. However, the small print shows that the panel will have no veto on the precept. All that it will get to do is say, “We don’t like this.” The elected commissioner will have to take into account what it has said, but he can then impose what he wants. At the moment, it is the Secretary of State who is to have the power to intervene and hold a referendum, not the local panel. I hope that will be reconsidered and changed in the other place.
When the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice explained the relevant regulations on Report, he said it would be for the panel to put forward an alternative, and then the public would decide. In Committee, however, he said that it would be for the police and crime commissioner to give an alternative that was not excessive, and then the referendum would be to choose between the two. The local people should be in charge—that is the focus of the Bill, and I hope the matter will be considered in the other place. I commend the Bill.
Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab)
Who would ever have believed that it would be a Conservative Home Secretary who took the Home Office back to the pre-Michael Howard era, when there was an overwhelming belief that neither the Home Secretary nor the Home Office had any part to play in reducing crime, co-ordination across boundaries or understanding the sophistication of organised criminality? Today, of course, e-crime and cybercrime can be added to that list.
Who would have believed that a Conservative Home Secretary would oversee a 20% cut in policing in this country, or chide a Labour Opposition for being obsessed with police numbers? I was proud to be the Home Secretary for the four years when we increased the uniformed police service by 15,000 officers. That was what the communities that we represented were demanding, and that was what they got. That was why there was a 43% reduction in overall crime in this country, and a much greater reduction in burglary and car crime.
Perhaps the Home Secretary could never in her wildest dreams have realised that she was going to come to the House and say that she could not present a protocol for the relationship between the new elected police and crime commissioners and chief constables, because the Government had not yet managed to put it together. They do not know what the relationship is going to be.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice rightly quoted the document about accountability that I presented to the last Home Secretary but one. He was right to say that I was concerned about power lying where accountability was held, and that, of course, is with the chief constable, the leadership team and the neighbourhood commanders who respond directly to the neighbourhood that they represent. I was proud to introduce the neighbourhood beat teams and police community support officers, which brought us close to our neighbourhoods.
Now we are going to see total confusion, with policy decided by an elected police commissioner and delivery decided by a chief constable who has to do as they are told, and with no proper, organised cross-boundary working. There will be a breakdown of direct accountability, including in the role of elected councillors, and of the partnership approach that is so crucial to the reduction of crime and the engagement of the citizenry. That engagement is part of the process needed to ensure that we can continue to have the tremendous legacy that we left the current Government.
Dr Huppert
I will try to be very brief. I thank Ministers for the helpful discussions that they have had with us and for the fact that we have managed to improve the Bill. I thank them for agreeing to our suggestions on removing the power for council officials to use reasonable force in protests and on ensuring that the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs plays a role in assisting on temporary banning orders. I thank them very much for agreeing to those requests, because that has improved the Bill.
There are still some issues to discuss as the Bill continues through the Lords, but it is very good. Liberal Democrats stood on a manifesto commitment to bring democracy into such matters. Unlike the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), I think the public should have their say. Democracy is very important.
I am particularly pleased that the Government propose to use a preferential voting system to elect the commissioner. That is a much fairer way of electing people who have such a critical role.
I am also pleased that we are unwinding some of the disgraceful measures introduced by the previous Government to stop protests in Parliament square. Unlike the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane), I do not believe that Parliament should be protected from the public. Parliament and the police should be accountable to them, which is what will now happen.
Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wonder whether you have had a request for a statement, either tonight or tomorrow morning, from the Minister of State, Cabinet Office. In response to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray), he told the Environmental Audit Committee this afternoon:
“we took the view collectively in Cabinet that we faced an immediate national crisis in the form of less growth and jobs than we needed”,
in relation to the recent Budget. We were not aware of those conditions before the Budget vote on Tuesday. The Minister accepts that we have an “immediate national crisis”, so has he given any indication of the need for a statement? We face unemployment at a 17-year high, a contracting economy, increasing VAT, and a jobs growth crisis in Britain. If the Minister is discussing with the Environmental Audit Committee, he should come to the House to explain himself.
Mr Speaker
I have received no request for any such statement, but I am reminded of why it was that the right hon. Gentleman once served as the Parliamentary Private Secretary to a former Prime Minister. I think we will leave it at that.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I was serving on the Environmental Audit Committee this afternoon. Given collective Cabinet responsibility and the admission of a national crisis, I wonder whether you could help us new Members of the House by saying whether, under the circumstances, Cobra should meet.
Mr Speaker
I have no knowledge of, intelligence about or opinion to volunteer on that matter, but I think that the hon. Gentleman is enjoying playing on the training ground, if I can put it like that.
Business without Debate
(13 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Zurbaran Paintings (Auckland Castle)
(13 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
When I requested this debate I did not know about the Church Commissioners’ announcement, and I wondered whether there should be a question mark in the title. However, I was just looking at the Order Paper, and I see that we now have a full stop, which is the right thing to have. I am absolutely delighted by the announcement that the Church Commissioners have made to secure in perpetuity the Zurbarans at Auckland castle.
Every politician dreams of receiving a brown envelope containing leaked documents that they can reveal to the press, but when I received mine and saw that it contained proposals for the sale of these national treasures in my constituency I was really alarmed. I was clear that I did not want my constituency to be asset-stripped. Equally, I do not hold to the view that every cultural icon should reside within the orbit of the M25.
Jonathan Ruffer has most generously provided the money to keep the Zurbarans in Auckland castle. When I read the interview with him in The Spectator and saw his emotional response to the story, I felt vindicated that I had given the documents to The Northern Echo. I hope that the Under-Secretary will note the importance of having a free, independent-minded press that can speak up for local communities at all times.
Many people have been thanked over the past 24 hours, but I particularly want to thank the anonymous person who sent me those documents. We will never know who it was, but they took a risk, and it was definitely a risk worth taking. I know that their action annoyed the Church Commissioners, and I can understand that, but the time and effort that have gone into solving the problem mean that we now have a much better solution than we would have had a year ago. I hope that the Church Commissioners feel that as well. Obviously, it is the mission of the Church to provide pastoral care at parish level, but it is also its mission to speak the great truths about humanity and to use art and stories to do that. Now we have the opportunity to do both those things.
In making the case for keeping the pictures in Auckland castle, and setting out our vision for a regenerated Bishop Auckland, we knocked on many doors. We were immensely strengthened and supported by the sympathetic hearing that we received from everyone from the Archbishop of Canterbury down. All the bishops were immensely supportive, as were the directors of the British Museum and the National Gallery. Another positive outcome is the fact that we have built up a well of support that will help us in progressing the project to create something very beautiful in Bishop Auckland.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
I want to assure the hon. Lady that there is equal delight right across the north-east that this wonderful philanthropic gesture has been made, and that this happy outcome has been secured.
Helen Goodman
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his support; I know that he has spoken about this matter in our region.
This is an important day, because the pictures have historical significance. Francisco de Zurbaran was a Spanish counter-reformation painter whose paintings can be seen across the world. I went to Chartres in the new year and saw one of his paintings there. Of course, it was in the bishop’s residence. The collection in Auckland castle is particularly special because 12 of the 13 paintings belong together. The series is known as Jacob and his 12 sons. The long dining room at the castle was specially modified to hold the pictures.
Bishop Trevor, who bought the pictures, had previously lived in Downing street, but he became Bishop of Durham in the middle of the 18th century. He did a lot of work at Auckland castle. He built a deer house, which probably meant that the deer were better housed than the tenants at that time, and he bought those fantastic pictures. It is believed that he did that out of solidarity with the Jewish community. Like all the Anglican bishops, he supported the legislation to extend the civil rights of the Jewish community, and he preached on the suffering of those in the Jewish diaspora. When the so-called Jew Bill was repealed by the Tories, the bishop bought the pictures and hung them in the long dining room at Auckland castle.
The director of the British Museum, Neil MacGregor, who had the paintings displayed in London in 1994, has called them the
“first multicultural document of Britain”.
That is why, if these paintings had been lost, moved or exported, it would have been a loss not only to the town of Bishop Auckland and our region, but to the nation. That is why I am extremely grateful to Jonathan Ruffer for his extraordinary generosity, which has enabled the establishment of a trust that will keep the paintings in the castle in perpetuity.
I would like to ask the Second Church Estates Commissioner, the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry), if he has any more details about the objects of the trust or who the trustees might be. Does he know how many of the priests employed through the money that Mr Ruffer donated will be in the Durham diocese?
The research undertaken by John McDonnell, QC, in recent months has shown that Bishop Trevor undoubtedly intended the pictures to stay at Auckland castle. As a result of this development, the legal issues surrounding the pictures will not be tested at this juncture. I want to note, however, that the case for incorporating the pictures as part of the grade I listing at Auckland castle still stands.
I want to pay particular tribute to Bob McManners, who is the chair of the Bishop Auckland Civic Society. He wrote a book about the history of the paintings and it turned out to be a fantastically valuable campaigning tool, which played a vital part in the success of this campaign.
The importance of inter-faith dialogue has obviously grown in the last 250 years, while our understanding of the difficulties and dilemmas of building a successful multicultural society has also developed. As well as having the paintings in Auckland castle as a symbol of commitment to inter-faith dialogue and multiculturalism, I hope there will also be space to allow people of all different faiths to meet together.
The land on which Auckland castle stands was gifted by King Canute to the Church. I particularly like this detail, because my mum, who is Danish, comes from the same village as King Canute. Since 1138, the bishops of Durham have made Auckland castle their first residence. Over the years, the bishops of Durham grew in power and authority, and temporal power backed up spiritual power. County Durham was the last place in England to send Members of Parliament to Westminster. Some people think that politics in our area is still somewhat behind that of the rest of the country!
What will attract people to visit the castle is not just its very interesting history, as the main reason people will come is that it is in a fantastically beautiful spot. Auckland castle is a Gothic building, with probably the largest private chapel in Europe, and it is situated in beautiful park land on a wooded promontory overlooking the river Wear.
The partnership proposed between Durham county council and the National Trust is a really positive development, alongside the generous donations of other individuals and other institutions. Another question for the Second Church Estates Commissioner is whether the Church Commissioners will be open to the possibility of involving other people in the partnership. I am thinking, in particular, of the contribution that the World Monuments Fund might be able to make.
I had originally thought that the Second Church Estates Commissioner rather than the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, the hon. Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), would respond to this debate. I hope that the Minister is in his place to tell us that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport is going to make a financial contribution as well as a moral one, so I look forward to hearing what he has to say.
The attraction of this project is that it is multi-layered: it is of historic interest, religious interest and artistic interest. Particularly exciting is the offer made by the director of the National Gallery, Dr Nicholas Penny, to lend paintings to Auckland castle so that we can turn it into an artistic centre.
For the people of Bishop Auckland this is obviously a question of identity, but it also presents a great opportunity to regenerate a town that has suffered significantly in recent years. Unemployment has been high, and several of our wards are among the 10% that are the most deprived in the country. It is easy to underestimate the number of jobs that can be created from tourism because they are generally in small businesses, but there are already 12,000 such jobs in County Durham, and tourism brings in £650 million a year. I am sure that we can we build on that. It would be fantastic if we could create a trail from Lindisfarne down through Jarrow to Durham and on to Bishop Auckland, repeating the journey of St Cuthbert’s shrine.
I want to thank many people for contributing to today’s happy outcome, not least the Second Church Estates Commissioner—as well as the secretary to the Church Commissioners, whom I see sitting in the Box. They came to Bishop Auckland in the snow, they pushed my car, and they listened to what was said by people in Woodhouse Close about why they wanted to hold on the paintings and have public access to the castle.
I thank my parliamentary colleagues in both Houses for their support, and I thank Durham county council, which has done a great deal of work but has a great deal more to do. I thank people throughout the country who have written to us and prayed for us. I thank Barbara Laurie, Marjorie Kellett, Ann Golightly and the many others who organised the petition. Most of all, however, I thank my constituents for defending their heritage so staunchly. After 900 years a Bishop of Durham will still live at the heart of our community, which is fantastic, because you can’t take the Bishop out of Bishop Auckland.
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) on securing this timely debate, and thank her for her kind personal comments. She has been a tireless and dedicated campaigner on this issue on behalf of those who live close to Auckland castle and those who come to enjoy it, its grounds and, especially, its paintings. As she made clear, both she and the people of Bishop Auckland, along with those in the wider region, are delighted about today’s announcement by the Church Commissioners that they are working to keep the Zurbaran paintings in Auckland Castle.
As Second Church Estates Commissioner, I am well aware of the strength and intensity of feeling that the castle and its paintings inspire in the hon. Lady and her constituents, and indeed in the diocese and the wider Church. It has been my pleasure to work with the hon. Lady on this issue in recent months. I was privileged to visit her constituency last November to view the paintings, along with other representatives of the Church Commissioners.
As the hon. Lady said, it is proposed that the 13 paintings by the Spanish artist Francisco de Zurbaran that currently hang in the Long Dining Room of Bishop Auckland castle should stay there, thanks to—I do not think that we can underline this too much—an extraordinary act of generosity by Jonathan Ruffer, chief executive of Ruffer. The paintings will be sold to a new trust, which will have a specific obligation to ensure their preservation and continued public display at Auckland castle. We are immensely grateful to him for an act of generosity that will ensure continued public access to those works of art in their natural home.
While I am giving credit where it is due, let me take the opportunity to thank Sir Paul Nicholson, Lord Lieutenant of Durham, for his chairmanship of the working party; Christopher Higgins, Vice-Chancellor and warden of Durham university; the Right Rev. Mark Bryant, Bishop of Jarrow; and all the others whose help, advice and assistance in recent months have proved invaluable in securing this resolution. I also thank my fellow Church Commissioners who have engaged so actively in the matter.
Although the Church Commissioners are significant owners of land and property, they are not, by and large, in the business of owning, maintaining and displaying paintings. I have made that point in the House before during questions on this issue, and I will return to it in a moment. However, I should first make a short detour. The Church Commissioners as we know them today came about in 1948 as the result of the merger of two bodies: Queen Anne’s Bounty and the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. The older of these, Queen Anne’s Bounty, was created in 1704 out of concern for the poverty of the clergy and the disrepair of their parsonages. Over a century later, Parliament created the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to manage the historic assets in order to make financial provision for the Church’s mission in areas of need and opportunity as well as to fund bishops and some cathedral costs, and in order to oversee a reorganisation of dioceses and cathedrals. Financing clergy pensions came much later.
The theme running throughout our 300-year history, which is very much alive today, is of supporting the Church’s mission throughout England. Today, the commissioners are responsible for all clergy pensions earned up to 1998, the stipends and working costs of all the Church of England’s bishops, the housing costs of all diocesan bishops and support of their local and national ministries, cathedral grants, stipends to cathedral deans and canons—and the list goes on. Currently, the Church Commissioners manage an investment portfolio of about £5 billion, largely in property and shares, which is derived from the Church’s historic resources. From this sum, they are able to contribute about 16p in every pound to the cost of the Church of England’s mission, with most of the balance coming from the generous giving of today’s parishioners. The majority of the commissioners’ other assets are in land and property, and as such they are not readily available to fund the day-to-day running of the Church of England. As a result of their investment performance, the Church Commissioners have distributed £31 million more each year to the Church for the past 10 years than if they had performed as an average fund. The point I would make in connection with all of this is that, although the Church of England owns and maintains about 16,000 places of worship and is responsible for 45% of this country’s grade I listed buildings—and so is arguably the nation’s leading heritage organisation, a point my hon. Friend the Minister and colleagues in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport well understand—the holding of heritage assets, of which the Zurbaran paintings are a prime example, has never been central to the commissioners’ asset portfolio.
The hon. Lady described very well the history of how the Zurbarans came to Auckland castle. The £125 spent by Bishop Trevor in 1756 was clearly a very worthwhile investment, because what it bought is now worth £15 million. With the moneys released by the sale of the Zurbaran paintings to the proposed trust, it will be possible to fund 10 additional clergy in perpetuity and to offer ministry to deprived areas of the nation. Doubtless some of the benefit of this arrangement will be enjoyed by communities in the north-east.
It is a matter of public record that the Church Commissioners have been reviewing the suitability of Auckland castle as the home of the Bishop of Durham and as the base for his local and national ministry. As part of this, the commissioners have been in discussions with representatives of the diocese and other local people. With the question of the Zurbaran paintings settled, the Church Commissioners now intend to work towards a future for the castle that not only maintains the strong and historic working link between it, the Bishop and the diocese, but that helps the site become, in the words of the hon. Lady herself,
“the focus for the development of tourism and an engine of regeneration.”
I look forward to working with her as future plans develop, and with heritage bodies, the county council, the people of Bishop Auckland and the Heritage Lottery Fund. The hon. Lady mentioned other organisations, and, indeed, other heritage organisations wish to be involved with this regeneration project, which I am sure would be welcomed.
I should stress that Auckland castle will remain the base for the Bishop of Durham’s ministry; he will continue to work there and pray in the chapel there, so it will be the centre of his work. I should also stress that what happens at Auckland castle sets no precedent in respect of the continued assessments and feasibility studies of all bishops’ residences. The commissioners continue to have a responsibility to ensure that the Church’s diocesan bishops are housed appropriately so as to enable them to fulfil their ministry locally and nationally. They are subject to a regular review process, and that process will continue, with decisions made on an individual basis.
I conclude by quoting from a letter that appeared in the Church Times on 25 March 2011 from the Rev. Richard Deimel, a local vicar in Bishop Auckland. Having been unhelpfully misquoted by a different newspaper—we might all sympathise with that—he wanted to set the record straight. Given that he makes some insightful and eminently sensible points, they are worth repeating. He said:
“The question of the sale of the Zurbarán paintings from Auckland Castle is complex and sensitive. I am a Vicar of five parishes from the edge of Bishop Auckland to Hamsterley forest. People here feel that they have very little significant heritage or art or architecture in their community. Many are very proud of the paintings and the castle. They find meaning and identity in their story. It would be incredibly damaging, indeed a bit like a kick in the teeth from the church and the state, if these left the North East or went into private hands.
I fully support attempts to build a partnership to retain them in some kind of shared ownership. This would be a real boost to the local community and economy. It would, also release the Church from the responsibility of being a custodian of heritage, because that is not the purpose of the Church.”
I agree with all those sentiments and I hope that those in the north-east will feel that that is what we have managed to deliver on. I have confidence that what the commissioners have announced today will reassure not only Rev. Richard Deimel, but the hon. Lady and her constituents, and all those petitioners in the region and beyond who have made their concerns known. What has been achieved is, I hope, in the best interests of the north-east, the Church and the Church in the north-east.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)
This is one of those rare debates when the House can unite in unalloyed joy and pay tribute to the extraordinary efforts of a number of people and organisations in producing an extraordinarily good news story. Some of the speeches we have heard have, to a certain extent, sounded like Oscar speeches, because many people have had to be thanked. Of course the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) could not thank herself, so let me thank her for all her efforts in securing Zurbaran’s paintings. I had not quite appreciated the vigour of her campaign and I listened to her speech with great joy as I heard what an extraordinary campaign she had led. When the roll call—perhaps I should say the battle honours—of those who saved the Zurbaran paintings comes to be written, I hope that her name will be prominent.
Francisco de Zurbaran, a contemporary of Velazquez and El Greco, was honorary painter to King Philip IV of Spain, who hailed him as the king of painters. Although fashion turned against him, his reputation was restored by Napoleon Bonaparte, who acquired many of his paintings, some of which are on display in the Louvre. As the hon. Lady pointed out, the Zurbarans at Auckland castle came there by way of Bishop Trevor. They were completed in the 1640s and turned up again only in 1720, in the possession of Sir William Chapman, a director of the ill-fated South Sea Company. So sometimes a financial crash can have a silver lining, because they were auctioned in 1756 and bought by Bishop Trevor, the Bishop of Durham.
As the hon. Lady pointed out, Bishop Trevor had persuaded his fellow bishops in the House of Lords to support the “Jew Bill”—the Jewish Naturalisation Bill—which would allow Jewish immigrants to naturalise as British citizens. The support of the bishops proved crucial to the Bill being passed. Bishop Trevor bought 12 of the 13 Zurbarans now on display in Auckland castle for £124 to demonstrate his sympathy for the disfranchised Jews following the repeal of that legislation in 1755. Somehow one painting—the painting of Benjamin—eluded him. Bishop Trevor was so desperate to complete his set of Zurbarans that he commissioned the foremost portrait painter of the day, Arthur Pond, to paint a facsimile of the final one in the series, for which he paid £21.
I know that the Church Commissioners understood the important considerations and strength of public feeling over the future of the paintings, so I was as delighted as anyone to learn what had happened. The Church Commissioners have announced that they are working on exciting new plans for the future of Auckland castle and I do not think we should lose sight of that. Not only have the Zurbaran paintings been saved, but the partnership with Durham county council and the National Trust will, we hope, establish innovative uses for the castle and grounds in a new venture that would not only continue to care for the paintings but enable much greater public access for a wider range of activities.
I must obviously take this opportunity to express official thanks on behalf of the Government to Jonathan Ruffer for his donation. It is particularly astonishing given that, according to the article in today’s edition of The Spectator, he brought them sight unseen, but I gather he is in the north-east this weekend and will see the paintings he has saved for the nation and the north-east. I commend the article in The Spectator as showing an example of what it means to be a philanthropist.
May I also thank the Rothschild Foundation, which has donated £1 million towards an endowment for Auckland castle, and Lord Rothschild himself? The cultural life of this nation would be significantly poorer without the work of someone like Jacob Rothschild, not only because of the money that he gives but because of the money that he encourages others to give. I do not know Jonathan Ruffer, but he is a self-effacing man and he said of Jacob Rothschild in the interview today:
“The battle honours in all of this go to him, not me”.
There is certainly some truth in that, because Jacob Rothschild has been at the heart of our cultural world for many decades and continues to be an incredibly important figure.
May I also thank the National Gallery, which I know is looking to help and support this venture—possibly with loans from its collection? I also thank the Church Commissioners, who continue to be in conversation with the Heritage Lottery Fund, the Art Fund and a number of other parties to consider how further funds can be raised. My Department, I am afraid, is not in a position to give direct financial support, but we have been kept closely in touch with developments and we will continue to work with all parties to broker some support. It might also be appropriate to pay tribute to Hillary Bauer, who is herself a cultural icon in my Department and has done a great deal to support these developments.
This is an unequivocally good news story. Joy has almost come out of the heavens, one could say. Jonathan Ruffer stands testament to philanthropy in this country; the hon. Lady stands testament as a campaigning MP for her constituency; the Church Commissioners stand testament as an organisation that is prepared to listen and negotiate before making a final decision; and the work of Durham county council, the National Trust, the Heritage Lottery Fund, the Art Fund and everyone else involved stands testament to what can be achieved by co-operation.
Question put and agreed to.
Ministerial Correction
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Draft Social Security (Reduced Rates of Class 1 Contributions, Rebates and Minimum Contributions) Order 2011
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Steve Webb
The process is neutral: as the rebate falls, so too does the promise that has to be matched. Schemes could, if they wanted to—this is a substantive point—reduce their accrual rates within the scheme.
[Official Report, First Delegated Legislation Committee, 21 March 2011, c. 8.]
Letter of correction from Steve Webb:
I made the above statement in my response to the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves).
The correct response should have been:
Steve Webb
When the rebate rate is reduced in 2012, the reference scheme test for contracted-out salary-related schemes—Defined Benefit—will remain the same, so it is schemes that offer benefits that are more generous than the reference scheme test that could choose to adjust their benefits in order to take account of a reduction in the rebate.
Westminster Hall
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
High-Speed Rail
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Walker. I speak as a representative of the Backbench Business Committee, and will briefly set the scene for this debate. As Members know, every Tuesday we hold an evidence session for Members of Parliament, who come to the Committee to try to secure a debate. They have to overcome many hurdles: the subject should not be Government business, or business that the Labour Opposition might want to discuss; and a number of Members must be interested in it. Judging by the numbers present this afternoon, that hurdle has probably been overcome. There must also be cross-party interest, and we like there to be internal dispute between the parties on the issue. The ideal debate, of course, is one that Members on neither Front Bench would want put on.
This debate on high-speed rail ticks almost all those boxes. We want this to be a wide-ranging debate. The Backbench Business Committee did not want it to be just about local constituency interests; we also wanted it to be about the principle of high-speed rail, and whether it is correct to spend billions of pounds on it. A Member who represents a constituency in the south-west might feel that it is not appropriate to do so, and that the money could be spent elsewhere. We hope that those points will be debated today.
We in the Backbench Business Committee are keen to stress that this Chamber is on a par with the main Chamber. Members taking part in Westminster Hall debates have absolute privilege, as they do in the main Chamber. The only difference is that we are not able to table a substantive motion in this Chamber. In the past, when a debate in this Chamber has produced a lot of interest and a lot of different points of view, we in the Backbench Business Committee have been keen to put on another debate on the same subject in the main Chamber, where there might be a substantive motion.
One of our problems in the Backbench Business Committee is that we are not in control of the allocation of time. In the main Chamber, we are given only limited notice by the business managers of when our time will be. Moreover, we do not know how many days we will get this Session. We have more certainty about Westminster Hall, which is why high-speed rail is being debated here today. That does not mean that we would not be prepared to consider, at a later stage, putting on this debate in the main Chamber.
Many Members want to speak, so I shall conclude my remarks. I have parliamentary business elsewhere, Mr Walker, so I apologise for the fact that I shall have to leave shortly.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to speak in this debate. I have a great interest in rail and, generally speaking, I am positive and passionate about the railways. Unfortunately, however, on this occasion I have to speak negatively about High Speed 2. I am deeply sceptical of it, for a variety of reasons. It is an unnecessary route and will be very expensive, and that money would be better spent elsewhere on modernisation, electrification, re-signalling and a variety of other expenditures. Eddington took the same view in his report. He was absolutely right to say that the focus should be on commuter and inter-urban routes, above all to relieve congestion, which causes extreme expense for the whole economy; that expense will rise to tens of billions of pounds in the next two or three decades, unless we do something to relieve congestion.
Congestion is caused by a number of things, the first being passengers using cars when we should be using rail. It is also caused by heavy freight, not directly so much as indirectly, because heavy freight on roads causes road damage. What is known as the fourth power law of road damage relates axle weights to road damage, and it is lorries that cause damage to roads. I am not against lorries per se, but a lot of the traffic that goes by road should actually go by rail. Road damage means that motorways have to be coned off time and again so that roads can be repaired, which means having two lanes for long stretches instead of three. The same applies to towns. It is necessary, for the future, to get heavy freight off road and on to rail.
I spoke on this theme in a recent debate in this Chamber, and explained how we ought to spend the money in alternative ways. For example, HS2 will run from north to south. There are already north-south routes, but they have not had sufficient investment, despite their modernisation, and they do not have enough capacity as they stand. They could, however, have enough capacity if we invested heavily in modern signalling, got many more train paths on the same tracks, and got freight off those lines. Before anyone jumps in and says, “Ah, but if we build HS2, we can put the passengers on that and leave the other lines free for freight,” that is nonsense, because it is impossible for the gauge sufficiently to provide, all the way up the backbone of Britain, for getting trailers on trains and even full-scale containers on flat-bed trucks. It is not possible to rebuild all those mainline railway lines on a gauge that is sufficient to take all the freight necessary. Moreover, scores of other major stations on those lines have to serve passengers, so passenger trains have to run on those routes, whatever is done about HS2.
HS2 serves only major cities. All those hon. Members who are enthusiastic about HS2 but who are not actually served by it might find that money that could have been invested in their own routes will be sucked away and spent on HS2. People who live in Milton Keynes, Coventry—my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) is sitting to my right—Luton and many other areas are not served. Before anyone says that I am a nimby, I am not, because HS2 will not serve or go anywhere near Luton.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
Those of us in Perivale certainly feel the pain, and there is no discernible indication of gain. On my hon. Friend’s analysis of the finances, can he enlighten us about the extent of private sector investment and involvement in this great, vast, glittering scheme?
Kelvin Hopkins
That is for the Minister to pronounce on and explain. I am a traditional socialist of the left and believe in public investment, which I think is much cheaper—the markets can be borrowed from much more cheaply, but I will not go into that now, because we will end up getting into private finance initiatives, public-private partnership and all those other financial disasters. I do not want to tread on dangerous ground, but the tube was not exactly a success, in terms of PPP. I believe in public investment, but wherever the investment comes from, it will be a very large sum that could be spent elsewhere. The opportunity costs will be great.
It would be easy to modernise the east coast main line. We could double the viaduct north of Welwyn to make four tracks instead of two; it is a pinch-point at the moment. A flyover is already being built for the Cambridge line at Hitchin. We would then need a passing loop at Peterborough, which would not be difficult, and a flyover at Newark. The whole line would then be open for 140 mph working, non-stop from King’s Cross to Edinburgh. In 1992, a test train did that route, non-stop apart from a two-minute stop at Newcastle, in three and a half hours. Interestingly, the proponents of HS2 suggest a time of three and a half hours—the exact same time that could be achieved on the existing route with a bit of modernisation.
The west coast main line is much more heavily used and serves more areas. Modernisation could get it to work at 135 mph, and similar route modifications could make it much better. We need to get the freight off that line. I repeat that freight and heavy axle weights cause more damage to tracks, which then need more repairs and more maintenance work. If we got freight off that line, and had modern signalling and many more train paths, we would have what we need up the west coast. As for passenger numbers, certainly the east coast has plenty of scope already; on the west coast, there is enough to cope for the long-term future.
I am arguing for a new, dedicated rail freight line; some hon. Members may know that I have been proposing that for a long time. I have been involved with a group of people who have a scheme that has been thought through in detail and involves a precise route. It would use old track bed and existing routes, and would involve only 14 miles of new line, nine of which is in tunnels. There would be a dedicated rail freight route up the backbone of Britain, serving all the major conurbations and linked to the channel tunnel; freight could go from Glasgow to Rome direct. The trains would be able to take full-scale lorry trailers, and double-stacked containers if necessary, all the way from the continent of Europe right through to Scotland. That is what Britain needs. That proposal would take 5 million lorry-loads off the roads, and much of the north-south freight off the east coast and west coast main lines. The supermarkets and a number of commercial organisations support the scheme.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
Does the hon. Gentleman not think it is absolutely crackers that I can get to Paris quicker than to Leeds, which I go to when I travel to my constituency, Skipton and Ripon? Is it not absolutely crackers that Britain is one of the only developed nations not to have a high-speed network?
Kelvin Hopkins
High-speed networks work brilliantly in areas where there are long gaps between major conurbations—in Spain, France and so on. Britain is much more densely populated. There are many stops and more towns en route. As I have suggested, we need more investment in the conventional railways that we already have, so that we can get to those destinations more quickly. I am sure that we can easily raise the speeds to Leeds, and certainly to other areas, with a lot of investment.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
The point is often made that high-speed rail works better over longer routes. Would he concede that the Paris-Lille, Osaka-Tokyo and Cologne-Frankfurt routes are all about 120 km long, which is quite similar to the first part of high-speed rail that is planned?
Kelvin Hopkins
We would have to be prepared to spend that kind of money. I have been on the Cologne-Frankfurt route and it is fantastic. A third of it is in tunnels, which are vastly expensive. The Germans have decided to build that route and it is a wonderful line. We do not have the resources to build lines like that everywhere. Some high-speed routes do not go through much on the way; we almost invariably have significant towns en route that have to be served on the same line.
David Mowat
I was responding to the hon. Gentleman’s point that high-speed rail works only over vast distances. The examples I quoted are not vast distances; they are very similar to what is envisaged in the first part of high-speed rail.
Kelvin Hopkins
In the best of all possible worlds, it would be nice to have fast routes everywhere. However, we must consider the resources involved. The significant routes are where people would choose to travel by air, rather than by land; people would go by aeroplane from Madrid to Barcelona, for example. Routes become economical where large numbers of people want to travel between conurbations that are fairly widely spaced, there is not a great deal in between, and it is easier to get the high-speed track without too much cost.
Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab)
My hon. Friend’s proposition for a dedicated freight line has been around in one form or another for a very long time and has always attracted the same level of opposition as HS2. Is it not almost inevitable when such a major infrastructure project is planned that there will be huge opposition to it?
Kelvin Hopkins
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. There is always opposition to such plans. I stressed at the beginning that I do not object to the line because it goes near me or anybody else; I am objecting to it on the basis that it is unnecessary and expensive, and the money should be spent elsewhere. I am taking up too much time, Mr Walker. I can see that many hon. Members want to speak.
Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)
There are plenty of hon. Members who want to speak.
Kelvin Hopkins
I have made my main points. I have made them before in this Chamber, and I shall continue to make them, because they are rational. A lot of people in the industry also support my view, which is not based on nimbyism but on what Britain really needs. Britain does not need HS2; it needs more investment in conventional rail and, indeed, in rail freight.
Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Walker. For several months, the hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson), my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) and I have attempted to secure this debate via the Backbench Business Committee. We have been preparing for this incredibly important debate for a long time, and I was assured only yesterday by the Table Office that my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) would make a few brief comments, and then I would be the first speaker.
Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)
It is always helpful if the Table Office conveys to the Chair the discussions it has had with Members’ researchers. If there has been confusion, I will get to the bottom of it.
Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Walker. I am delighted to see so many right hon. and hon. Members in this Chamber. I would particularly like to mention my hon. Friends the Members for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant), for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Mr Randall), who are present today.
I am sick to the back teeth about the way in which the debate on high-speed rail is being trivialised into the nimbys versus business recovery, the poverty-stricken north versus the privileged south, and the commuter versus the community. The debate about high-speed rail should be about how best to deliver the transport infrastructure that Britain desperately needs to ensure a rebalancing of our economy, with prospects for private sector recovery coming from all parts of the UK and not just the dominant south-east.
High-speed rail will be an eye-wateringly expensive project, costing at least as much as the renewal of Trident. It is crucial that a project that would cost each family in Britain £1,000 is properly scrutinised to deliver not just the benefits of extra capacity, but the value for money that taxpayers are entitled to expect. I will make the case that high-speed rail does not deliver value for money. That is not a nimby perspective. I have spent 23 years in banking and finance, including in project finance. I do not believe that the economic case stacks up and I am certainly not alone in that view.
My hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie), Chairman of the Treasury Committee, gave a speech immediately following the Budget. He said:
“In our efforts to return to sustained growth, we need to make the best use of every pound invested in our public services. Another example of the need to make sure we have coherence in growth policy has been put to me by colleagues on both sides of the House. They have asked whether spending £17 billion on a high-speed rail link is better use of the money than investing in modern rolling stock and improving the existing tracks.”—[Official Report, 23 March 2011; Vol. 525, c. 973.]
That is precisely the question that Parliament needs to debate and resolve. Others who question high-speed rail, and whom, I feel sure, could not be accused of nimbyism, include the TaxPayers’ Alliance, the Adam Smith Institute, the Institute of Economic Affairs, Friends of the Earth, the Sustainable Development Commission, rail experts and the Countryside Alliance. So let us have a proper debate today and acknowledge that all who speak here are in favour of the central goal of achieving better transport infrastructure, in support of rebalancing our economy and a private sector-led recovery.
Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)
All three major parties had HS2 in their manifestos, including the party for which my hon. Friend stood. Why is she choosing this moment to put these points forward, rather than before the general election?
Andrea Leadsom
I thank my hon. Friend for those remarks. Ever since Lord Adonis introduced the proposal, I have opposed it, as I am sure my right hon. Friend the Minister will recall.
Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con)
The proposal was, of course, in our manifesto. That is a particularly important point for my constituency because we were deadly opposed to the third runway at Heathrow. One of the most important alternatives our party suggested was putting people on trains rather than planes. I appreciate that the proposal will not make a difference to travel from Birmingham, because there are no planes from there to Heathrow but, when we push up north, it could make a significant difference to the use of domestic flights to Heathrow. For that reason alone, it is very easy for me to support the proposal.
Andrea Leadsom
I agree absolutely with my hon. Friend. We desperately need to improve dramatically the capacity in our train infrastructure. I hope that she will bear with me, because I intend to show that we can achieve that without needing to spend the amount of money that we are talking about for high-speed rail.
Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con)
On that point, lest people think that that argument means that this is somehow a green solution, is it not the case that any slots freed up at Heathrow from domestic airlines will be taken up by long-haul airlines, thus increasing not decreasing emissions?
Andrea Leadsom
Yes, indeed. There have been plenty of anecdotal reports from low-cost airlines suggesting that they would welcome the opportunity to put on more cheap long-haul flights.
I plan to challenge four aspects of the case for HS2: the business case, the environmental case, the claims about job creation and the potential for regeneration. I am a firm believer that one cannot attack something without providing an alternative. I will therefore also discuss a viable alternative to HS2. I have based my challenges on phase 1 of HS2, in spite of the fact, unfortunately, that the consultation incorporates the entire Y-shaped project. There is too little detail on the assumptions underlying phase 2 to be able to assess the figures properly. I also need to point out that the original business case, written by Atkins for the Department for Transport in March 2010, was updated last month. The new business case is considerably less attractive than the old one.
I will deal first with the business case for HS2. HS2 Ltd claims a net benefit ratio, which includes the wider economic impacts, of 2. That means that for every pound spent, there will be £2 of benefit. That is about the minimum return that could be expected from a rail project—the bar for roads projects is significantly higher. Even that modest claim, however, makes enormous assumptions. Specifically, one of the core and somewhat ludicrous assumptions is that all the time spent on a train journey is wasted, and therefore that every minute of a train journey that is saved can be given a value in pounds—the number of minutes saved, multiplied by the earnings of an individual. That would not matter so much except that the journey time savings account for more than 50% of the £20 billion of total economic benefit claimed for the project. I urge the Department for Transport to look again closely at that point.
David Mowat
On the first point, the ratio of 2 is for the London to Birmingham link. As my hon. Friend will know, the ratio is 2.6 for the link to Manchester and to Leeds. Including the wider economic benefits, it is 2.6. I have the business case for Crossrail, which my hon. Friend may have had the chance to have a look at. The business case in that is 1.87. The final point that my hon. Friend might wish to consider is the idle time point, which is very important.
Andrea Leadsom
I am struggling to follow some of my hon. Friend’s numbers, because I think that he might be looking at the numbers from the original business case, not from the current one. I do not want to address his points specifically because those numbers do not quite register with me. I apologise for that.
Passenger forecasts are another major assumption in the business case, relying on a 216% rise in demand for train travel. That figure remains wildly optimistic, in spite of being downgraded from the original business case, in which growth of 267% was forecast. The Department for Transport’s own national travel survey shows that overall transport demand is no longer growing with GDP. Eurostar’s passenger numbers in 2009 had reached only 37% of the level that was forecast, as a result of building the HS1 link. The Public Accounts Committee took evidence from the Department for Transport on that point and was reassured by it that lessons had been learned and that any future major project would factor in more severe downside assumptions—that has clearly not been the case. The only comparable forecasts for long distance rail travel by 2036 are from Network Rail, which predicts a range of growth of 45% to 89%, versus that forecast by HS2 Ltd in its original business case of 133% growth by 2033. I urge the Department for Transport to look closely again at that assumption.
Of course, in cash terms HS2 will never pay for itself. Once built, only one third of the total claimed benefits will be captured through fares. The value of the net revenues once it has been built—with a presumption of fares of £14 billion, less operating costs of £6 billion over a 60-year project life—will cover only less than half of the capital costs. At a time when families up and down the country are feeling the pinch, we must make sure that infrastructure projects offer value for money. Many people would argue that not a penny will be spent until 2015 anyway, but between 2009 and 2015 the Department for Transport expects to spend around £1 billion just on preparing the way for high-speed rail.
Secondly, on the environmental impact, HS2 Ltd itself says that the project is, at best, carbon neutral. It predicts that 65% of passengers will either transfer from existing rail services, where faster trains inevitably increase carbon emissions, or are additional new journeys as a result of the faster trains, which will also increase emissions. The shorter journeys by air that will transfer to HS2, will ironically, as my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) said, provide more capacity at our regional airports for cheaper long-haul flights. It is estimated that the modal shift from car to high-speed train will be approximately 7%. In fact, HS2 Ltd forecasts that the traffic volumes on the M1 will be reduced by only 2% as a result of HS2. So, it is not green. There will also be a significant environmental impact during construction, as well as permanently, to the English countryside, wildlife and historic sites.
Thirdly and fourthly, on the prospects for job creation and regeneration, the Department for Transport claims that HS2 will create 30,000 new jobs. Some 9,000 will be construction jobs and are likely to be temporary. The rest are skewed towards property development and retail near stations.
Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con)
It is not often that I am at odds with my hon. Friend and her point of view. However, only yesterday 90 business leaders from Yorkshire published an open letter in the Yorkshire Post, which sent a resounding message to the Government and said very clearly that high-speed rail is vital for Yorkshire’s success in the future. Who is right: the 90 business leaders in Yorkshire, or my hon. Friend?
Andrea Leadsom
I agree with my hon. Friend that it is very unusual for us to disagree. The reality is that we all share the same goal: to regenerate our economy and to provide good value for money to the taxpayer. What we are arguing about is how we achieve that. Surely my hon. Friend would agree that HS2 is not the only possible means by which to achieve that regeneration. We have to look at what gives us the best value for money.
Up to 70% of the new jobs created by HS2 will benefit London, where Old Oak Common is believed to be the best location for regeneration. I am sure that many hon. Members across the House do not feel that regeneration benefits to London represent good value for money. In fact, research on capital expenditure in the wider economy suggests that the cost of creating one job in the first phase is about four times the cost of capital expenditure in the wider economy. Again, I urge the Department for Transport to consider whether the project will create jobs. Would it be better to spend the money elsewhere and get four times the number of jobs in the wider economy?
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
The hon. Lady is falling into the trap into which she said she did not want to fall—the north-south divide. In the ward in my constituency where the interchange will be based, just over half the working-age population are currently in employment. Investment in employment is needed in large parts of London, and in the south as well as the north, and she should perhaps have regard to that.
Andrea Leadsom
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments. Of course, he is absolutely right, but one of the key advantages that is talked about by those who advocate HS2 is the regeneration potential for the north of the country, and the scheme’s contribution to rebalancing our economy between the north and the south. I am sure he will agree that while there are benefits to regeneration in some desperate parts of the south as well, HS2 will not provide the regeneration in the north that is claimed for it.
Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend not recognise that HS2 coupled with the northern hub would actually provide many jobs in the north and help to end the north-south divide?
Andrea Leadsom
I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. I absolutely am a supporter of the northern hub—there is no doubt about that—but I refer him to my comments. HS2 is an extraordinarily expensive way of achieving jobs. In the wider economy, the cost of providing one job through capital expenditure is believed to be some 25% of the cost of providing one job through this project. I do not believe that it is a good way to create jobs, whether in the north or the south.
In summary, I believe that HS2 is a deeply flawed proposal that will not deliver the economic, environmental, employment or regeneration benefits that are claimed for it. However, I absolutely recognise the shortcomings of our existing transport infrastructure, and I commend the Government for the many measures they are taking to sort out long-standing bottlenecks.
The rebalancing of our economy and a private sector-led recovery will depend on significant investment in infrastructure, but there is an alternative to HS2 that can achieve the capacity the country needs at far better value for money: Rail Package 2. RP2 can provide 135% extra capacity, extendable to 176%, and a significant advantage is that it can be introduced incrementally as passenger demand increases. It requires certain things: lengthening all Pendolino trains to 11 cars from the current mix of nine and 11 cars; replacing some commuter trains with 125 mph stock so as not to delay faster trains; dealing with bottlenecks at seven specific points along the line; adding platforms at Euston and Manchester, and considering laying more track into Birmingham.
RP2 to the west midlands has a benefit-cost ratio of 1.9 versus 1.6 for HS2 London to west midlands, excluding the wider economic impacts. The benefit-cost ratio of the whole Y-shaped project is higher, at 2.2, but there is not enough information about the assumptions to evaluate that. In any case, I have provided plenty of information to challenge the assumptions.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
Is my hon. Friend aware that the analysis of the business case for RP2 does not take into account the huge cost that would come from disruption to services as a result of the kind of upgrade she is talking about?
Andrea Leadsom
I thank my right hon. Friend for her intervention. I had not written that into my contribution because there is so much to say. As she well knows, HS2 requires the complete rebuilding of Euston station, and it would be extraordinarily difficult for services to be able to continue on the west coast main line during that period. In addition, as I am sure she knows, the proposals in RP2 are not the same as the first incremental improvements to the west coast main line in the first phase of regeneration, which required rebuilding virtually the whole of the track and the signals. The incremental proposals are entirely achievable while existing network services are utilised along the west coast main line.
Mrs Villiers
Does my hon. Friend accept that the more intensively a transport system is used, the higher the price paid in terms of lack of resilience? One of the major concerns about RP2 is that the line is intensively used at present, and the kind of even more intense use that she advocates would have a significant impact on it and cause major deterioration in reliability. There would be a significant negative impact on the quality of the passenger experience.
Andrea Leadsom
I thank the Minister again, but I have to disagree with her. There is no evidence that suggests that RP2 would involve a desperately intensive use of the west coast main line. Not only that, the capacity created by it would significantly exceed the likely demand, certainly in the short and medium term. Other rail experts argue that the forecasting model that is being used by the Department for Transport is suitable for forecasting demand up to 10 years only, not the 43 or 45 years for which the Department is forecasting. There is no clear evidence that my proposal would entail that intensity of west coast main line usage.
Another significant benefit of RP2 is that it can be delivered far quicker than HS2, thereby dealing with the problems of overcrowding now, rather than leaving the commuters of Manchester, Birmingham, Rugby and Milton Keynes to wait until 2026 for proper relief. The danger that is inherent in forecasting out to 45 years, as the Department has done, is removed by using RP2. It can be implemented incrementally—it is not all or nothing—and problems can be dealt with as they arise.
I fear that HS2 is a flawed project. There is no doubt that we have to improve our transport infrastructure, but I urge the Department to reconsider RP2, which is cheaper and more environmentally friendly. It would deal with the problems sooner and far more accurately than HS2.
I shall conclude with a final call to action. The original mandate of HS2 Ltd was to look at the feasibility of, and the business case for, a new high-speed rail line between London and the west midlands, and to consider the case for high-speed rail services linking London, northern England and Scotland. Because of that mandate, HS2 Ltd inevitably has a vested interested in seeing HS2 built. For the credibility of the project, the Department should undertake an independent comparison of the merits of HS2 versus RP2. Legitimate concerns have been ignored because of the insistence that opposition is just nimbysm. We must put that aside and have a rigorous debate on how to achieve our shared goals while getting the greatest bang for our buck. Thank you, Mr Walker.
Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab)
I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom). This is, indeed, a most important debate, and I would like to thank the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), who is a member of the Backbench Business Committee, for giving it to us. As he made clear, we had wished for a debate on the Floor of the House, and he almost promised us one once we are further into the consultation period. I am pleased to see such a good cross-party alliance forming here against HS2, and I hope briefly to follow the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire in setting out some of the reasons why it is a monumental waste of money and diversion of scarce resources.
I assure my hon. Friends who represent certain London and home counties constituencies, and others such as my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth), that those who oppose HS2 absolutely recognise the need for more capacity. We recognise that greater connectivity would be of great benefit, but we believe—I agree here with the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire—that Rail Package 2, which was worked out by Atkins, as the Minister knows, offers a much better prospect for being able to do that in a shorter time and on a much more cost-effective basis than HS2. I will say a few more things about that in a moment, if I may.
Those who represent Manchester and Leeds will naturally have an interest in seeing their constituents and businesses able to come down to London much more quickly than they can at present. I urge them to read about and get into the alternatives in RP2. It does most of what they could reasonably expect, given the scarcity of resources for capital projects, and all other areas of revenue expenditure as well, that this country faces in this difficult period.
The project mysteriously appeared at the tail end of the previous Government’s tenure of office, and was somehow or other—remarkably quickly—brought to the fore by Lord Adonis. One has to congratulate him on his coup in that respect. To many people, it came out of the blue, and provided the preponderant Tory part of the present Government with a marvellous reason for being able to cover their strange decision against the Heathrow extension—I know that many people had an interest in it. They managed to cover it by being able to say that they would replace it with HS2 going up to Birmingham and on to the north. It does not really do that at all. It is a great pity that the coalition Government missed the opportunity at least to subject this huge expenditure to a proper review. Instead, they jumped on the bandwagon to justify their stance over Heathrow.
As for the justification for HS2, I pay tribute to the work done by the HS2 Action Alliance against the project and I recommend its papers to everyone in the debate—I am sure some of them will be available, and Members should study them. For those of us who are against the project, it is a relief not to have to fix the numbers or to choose the numbers that suit our case best, as all Governments and Oppositions do, because every time we look at the Government’s numbers, they collapse. The Department for Transport brought some numbers out last March, and they brought some more out this year. Every time they bring numbers out and we examine them—there is no party political point in this—they are downgraded, just like current Government forecasts. At the end of my speech I will return to the point about what the Government should do in the present situation.
If one adopts some realistic assumptions on demand for HS1 and on the time benefit, the net benefit ratio is now down to 50p per pound spent. No time currently spent travelling by rail is counted at all, but the entire time spent on HS1 is counted at an annual rate of £70,000 a year, and every minute is brought into the so-called net benefit ratio. That is a monstrous distortion. One does not have to calculate other figures; one simply has to expose what the Government and the Department are up to.
Another point that has been made is that there is no alternative. I will deal with the subsidiary points in a moment. As I said, there is an alternative: it is called Rail Package 2, and it is in the Atkins alternatives. Before the Department published the revised forecast earlier this month, we urged it to study RP2. Instead, it bundled it together with two or three inadequate alternatives and tried to tar them all with the same brush. What we need the Government to do—they have made a useful start in this respect—is to set up an office to objectively and independently consider major infrastructure projects, in the same way that they set up the Office for Budget Responsibility. We do not have such an office, and nobody has looked at this issue other than the Government and the Department, whose minds are set in favour of HS2. What we are embarking on is not consultation; those who are against the project and those who are in favour of it can put their points, and ne’er the twain shall meet. The outcome, of course, will be a Division in the House in due course.
The Government are not listening; their mind is made up. Instead of just putting forward the same old flawed figures, why do they not look at the situation again, study RP2 objectively, try to develop it and see what alternatives emerge? They should do that productively and positively, not so that they can dismiss RP2 before they have made a decent analysis of it.
Mrs Villiers
I am sure I am not going to convince the hon. Gentleman on everything, but I hope that I can convince him that the Government have an open mind on this issue. We are listening to the concerns that are being expressed now and that will be expressed during the consultation. That is one reason why about half the route we inherited from our predecessors has been altered with a view to mitigating its local environmental impact.
Mr Robinson
I am grateful to the Minister. I hope that we can take that assurance at face value, as we are meant to. The test will be whether the Department is prepared objectively to get into the detail of RP2, because it has not done so yet. The Government should just study the papers produced by the HS2 Action Alliance and look at where they have tried to conflate a whole set of different alternatives. The Government and the Department—not the Minister, of course—should look at where they have tried to obfuscate the obvious advantages of RP2. From being 25% of the capital cost of HS2, RP2 has suddenly become 50%. That is all about the sudden increase in the cost of the rolling stock for RP2. Why has that happened? Can the Minister answer that basic question? After all, the Government say that they have studied this objectively.
Mrs Villiers
There are two different ways to analyse RP2, one of which involves purchasing rolling stock and one of which involves leasing it. That may be the source of the hon. Gentleman’s confusion.
Mr Robinson
We have suddenly gone from finding rolling stock available to having to purchase it. The change is not justified; it is not even spelled out. People will have their houses razed and they will suffer enormously. Every taxpayer will have to pay well over £1,000 towards HS2, but there is no real justification for this project yet.
If the Department is serious, if it wants to get back some credibility with those who look at these issues and if it wants to justify a real national case to people, including some in my constituency, as well as citizens elsewhere in Coventry and in Stoke, who will simply be bypassed and have a much worse service from HS2—businesses in Coventry will be adamantly against it, and those in Leeds and Manchester can no doubt be brought to say that they are, too—the least it can do is set up a proper inquiry into the business case for HS2 and explain why RP2 would not be a far better alternative or, at the very minimum, a valid alternative.
Conversations with Centro have made it clear that we need the added capacity, and no one in the debate has any doubt that HS2 would provide it, but at what cost? It will cost £18 billion to Birmingham and £30 billion to Manchester and Leeds. The cost per job created will be £600,000, which is monstrous. It has been said that that is about four times more than a normal job, for which the cost is £150,000, but even that figure is a gross exaggeration, and infrastructure projects can create jobs elsewhere in the economy at a much lower cost. The figure of £600,000 is mind-blowing.
Incidentally, I cannot imagine where the Treasury is on this. It has never been known to be terribly favourable to transport projects—on the contrary. It is also notorious for cutting waste and stopping projects that do not have a proper financial justification. How has the Department managed to convince the Prime Minister and now the Chancellor that it is in favour of the project? I cannot imagine why the Treasury has not stopped it. The only reason can be that the Government need something to explain why they have come out—this was purely for electoral reasons—against the development of Heathrow.
Graham Evans
Perhaps the fact that the Chancellor is a northern MP has something to do with that. However, on the previous point, Lord Adonis said that the likes of Rail Package 2 would be a classic British compromise and a mistake.
Mr Robinson
We have these generalisations, and people talk about a classic British compromise. We have all these platitudinous, stupid arguments, with people saying, “The Germans have one”, “We’ve got one” and “My dad’s bigger than your dad.” I have never heard anything so daft. We should look at the facts and figures and study these things objectively. If the hon. Gentleman cannot, the people in the Department can.
One Government Member has said that the terms of reference mean that the whole process has been hijacked by the pro-HS2 lobby, and there it has stayed. Nothing else has been analysed objectively. The OBR was set up to make sure that the Government’s general finances, economic policy and investments at the national level that are unrelated to infrastructure are properly evaluated, and the case for doing the same for infrastructure projects is stronger still. The Government should introduce such a body, and I would commend them if they did.
The green case has also collapsed. There is no net benefit in terms of the reduction in carbon from the scheme. The movement from air traffic constitutes only 7% of the eventual traffic to be carried on HS2, which is terribly small. Most importantly, this project is so long term that all the forecasts are meaningless; they have to be. Many of us will have heard Robert Chote on the “Tonight” programme saying that forecasts are very difficult. Robert Chote has all the power of the Institute for Fiscal Studies and all the stuff that he has brought into the new OBR, but the OBR has not got a forecast right from the Budget last June, to last November’s pre-Budget report, to the Budget this month. In about 10 months, it has changed its mind three times. To justify their demand forecasts, the Government have pushed them out 35 years; they have added 10 years on to get the volume increase they need to justify the project. What they are doing is so obvious, and that sort of stupidity is invalidating their case and making all of us who will be affected by this project, including those whose homes will be torn up, increasingly angry.
John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con)
The same could apply to the hon. Gentleman’s forecasts. They could be underestimates as well. The economic benefits could be far greater than any of us anticipate.
Mr Robinson
That is a very fair point. It is difficult when one looks at such wildly different forecasts. One has to look at the history. Let us take demand forecasts for the rail industry. Nine out of 10 have been grossly exaggerated by at least twice. That is roughly the proportion we have between the conservative forecast and the Department for Transport’s forecast today. In the case of HS1, it has only just now, after nearly a decade of some sort of operation, reached the lowest level of forecast we ever thought remotely possible. As we know, HS1 has just been sold off as a dead loss, at a loss of £3 billion.
John Stevenson
On the west coast line the increase in traffic has been far beyond the forecasts made originally.
Mr Robinson
I do not think I can talk to that point. We come back to the fact that it can be done much more cheaply—I hope the Minister is listening. RP2 should be analysed and developed properly. It can also be done much earlier. In this period of difficult recovery, we need projects that generate growth and employment now. This is not going to come in—on the best of cases—until 2026 to Birmingham, and then it goes another 20 years beyond that. That is far too late. I was speaking to Geoff Inskip, managing director of Centro the other day, and he said we cannot wait so long, we need the increasing capacity now, as soon as possible. He is convinced that four-tracking between Coventry and Birmingham should be proceeded with forthwith. That is the first step towards RP2 and it should be taken now; we should not wait until 2026. That is an absurd proposition for meeting the country’s capacity needs for rail transport.
Mr Ainsworth
By raising the historical context, my hon. Friend is making a good case against every major infrastructure project that has ever been built. All the Victorian railway lines went broke; the channel tunnel never made any money; HS1 has just been exposed by my hon. Friend. Is he suggesting that we should never have built any railways, we should not have built the channel tunnel and we should not have built HS1? He appears to be saying that we can squeeze yet more—and there is a law of diminishing returns—out of the existing infrastructure. We have had years of disruption on the west coast main line for an upgrade. He is saying that huge benefit can be gained by yet more disruption to the existing lines.
Mr Robinson
That point was made earlier. My right hon. Friend asserts one thing that leads me to assert another. I believe it can be developed in that way. I believe it because the Atkins report, which also made a projection for the HS2 line, said it and worked it out in detail. It very clearly dealt with pinch points, length of trains, length of carriages, and calculated the number of problems it would create in disturbance on the line. We want it worked out and properly investigated by an independent body. That is what we need. Nobody is against it; we all want to extend the rail line. We all want to extend rail capacity and increase speeds.
Mr Robinson
I will give way to the Minister in a second. RP2 will take us up to 136 mph, which many people think adequate.
Tony Baldry
In fact, I am a humble Back Bencher, and proud to be so. I do not wish to intrude in family grief in Coventry, but I think that the hon. Gentleman is failing to make his best point. His best point on behalf of Coventry should be a concern that HS2—which quite rightly, if it goes ahead, will connect certain cities in the country—is likely to be to the disadvantage of other cities, such as Coventry. He has not made that point in terms, and I am sure it is one he would wish to.
Mr Robinson
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I was trying not to participate in nimbyism. I have been sworn not to do that. I make no apology: I am here to represent Coventry’s interest. Call me a nimby or whatever. I can find nothing in the proposal that brings any benefit to Coventry. I think that if my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) were here he would agree with that point. I can see that many others have a different point of view. We want capacity, we want modernisation, we believe we can get it, there is an alternative, and we want it evaluated. I cannot see what is wrong with that proposition. I cannot see how anyone could oppose it when, looking at capital costs on present forecasts, it would cost half of what HS1 cost.
Mr Robinson
We have taken up a bit of time. The hon. Gentleman will have better use of his time if I curtail mine.
Welcome as a public consultation is, it is no more than an opportunity for the pros and cons to be stated on a large project on which the Government have already made up their mind. Opening up the mind is very good, and I appreciate what the Minister has said on that point. I have to warn all those who for personal and national reasons are joining us in opposition to HS2 that it is going to require a sustained, strong exercise in parliamentary and people power to get the Government to change their mind. Do not underestimate the difficulties we all face in that respect.
Dan Byles
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) on securing the debate after months of dogged perseverance, along with myself and the hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson), and for her tour de force of a speech, which I think we all agree made the points very eloquently. I am also delighted to see Mr Speaker here; he obviously has a great interest in the matter.
The high number of Members attending demonstrates the importance of the issue, not just to those whose constituencies are affected, but to the entire country. It also clearly demonstrates the need for a full debate on the matter on the Floor of the House before the end of the consultation period. This involves a huge sum of money on a hugely important national infrastructure project. I believe it deserves full debate and discussion by the House.
Due to the large number of Members wishing to speak, and in particular due to the excellent job that my hon. Friend made in pointing out the serious flaws in the business case, I will not speak for too long. I see no need to repeat many of the points that have been made. We have heard that the net benefit ratio is potentially lower than some of the alternatives that we do not believe have been adequately explored. The NBR depends on extremely optimistic passenger growth numbers over which there are serious questions. As the hon. Member for Coventry North West said, we know that the Department for Transport’s record on estimating passenger numbers for HS1 was frankly diabolical. To risk £17 billion of taxpayers’ money on what might be equally diabolical passenger forecast numbers would be very wrong, without considerably more work being done.
I oppose the proposal in respect of the national business case. However, I would also like to point out my serious concern about the possible impact of the project on the regions. There has been a lot of discussion and talk about the benefits of rebalancing the economy and pushing economic growth from the south-east to the regions. That is often used as a principal argument in favour of this project. However, I do not believe that the Department or HS2 Ltd have adequately analysed the evidence from existing high-speed rail networks in other countries. The impact assessments produced by HS2 Ltd clearly demonstrate that one of the costs of HS2 will be slower and less frequent train services for some of the surrounding towns and cities—a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry). I am less shy than the hon. Member for Coventry North West in saying that Coventry will see its direct rail services potentially slashed from three to one an hour. The remaining one will be slower.
Mrs Villiers
That is simply not true. There are some indicative forecasts in the HS2 analysis about how services might be configured in future. The reality is that Coventry is going to continue to enjoy frequent fast services. With HS2, it gets additional capacity for other journey opportunities, in particular, commuters get vital relief from overcrowding and lack of reliability as a result of overcrowding on the network.
Andrea Leadsom
I would like to make the point that it is not possible for my right hon. Friend to make that claim. The transport network is actually in the private sector. Therefore, if the rail operators find that they are losing revenue because there is no longer the overcrowding that there was because of the 65% transferral of passengers to high-speed rail, they will inevitably either put up fares or reduce services. The most likely outcome is a reduction of services, because fares are capped.
Dan Byles
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. The very fact that the Minister referred to indicative figures—they are out there in the public domain, are causing concern, and are often quoted—shows that we have not yet had sufficient discussion or debate about the impact. From a sedentary position, hon. Members have rubbished some of the claims for Rail Package 2, and say that work has been done and shows that some of our claims for it are simply not true. Where is that work? Why is it not being published? Why is the Department for Transport not addressing the questions that opponents of HS2 are asking? Instead, it is addressing motives, and using words such as “nimby” and so on instead of addressing arguments. The Department should address those questions, but it is not doing so adequately.
Of more concern is the fact that there is evidence from studies of existing high-speed rail services in other countries that, far from pushing economic growth from the centre to the regions, they may have the opposite effect. They may suck economic activity from the regions toward the centre. There is a real danger of economic growth draining away from, for example, Birmingham and the surrounding region towards London. The Research Institute of Applied Economics at the university of Barcelona studied existing high-speed rail networks in Japan, France, Germany, Spain and Italy. Its findings should cause policy makers in the UK to sit up and take notice. It suggested that smaller cities linked to larger cities by high-speed rail lines sometimes suffer from a negative agglomeration effect. That may take several forms, but the report is very clear about the risks for smaller cities such as Birmingham when linked to a larger city such as London.
I shall quote briefly from the report. It states:
“It is consistently reported that HSR does not generate any new activities nor does it attract new firms and investment, but rather it helps to consolidate and promote ongoing processes as well as to facilitate intra-organizational journeys for those firms and institutions for whom mobility is essential.”
It continues:
“In fact, for regions and cities whose economic conditions compare unfavorably with those of their neighbors, a connection to the HST line may even result in economic activities being drained away and an overall negative impact”
Craig Whittaker
The business people of Yorkshire are not particularly interested in rebalancing on a regional basis. All they want is a balanced playing field. It is unacceptable for Yorkshire businesses when competing in our capital in our country that it takes longer to get here than it takes the French and Belgians.
Dan Byles
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. It sounds ideal to suggest that linking the two systems will benefit the regions, but the university of Barcelona looked at high-speed rail systems on the continent, and found that the benefits often flow the other way. Economic activity might drain away from the north towards the south.
Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)
I am listening carefully to the point that my hon. Friend is making. He will know, of course, that the 1970s experience in Japan is contrary to the findings of the study. More importantly and more locally, the study from the North West Business Leadership Team only yesterday points in a completely different direction from that in the Spanish study.
David Mowat
I want to make the same point. A recent survey by the West Midlands Chamber of Commerce, which I think includes Coventry and north Warwickshire, estimated that there would be £6 billion of wider economic benefits. Does my hon. Friend not believe that some of that would go to his constituency?
Dan Byles
North Warwickshire council and, I believe, Warwick district council, as well as Warwickshire county council and Staffordshire county council, have all come out formally against the proposal. They obviously do not believe that there will be wider economic benefits for the midlands and their council areas.
The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) demonstrates that we need to do more work before spending 17 billion quid of taxpayers’ money. If some reports say one thing, and others say something else, where is the fundamental, independent, root and branch economic analysis of existing high-speed rail systems in other countries around the world? I genuinely do not believe that what HS2 and the Department for Transport published represents that.
Stephen Hammond
Will my hon. Friend say who would satisfy his classification of independence?
Dan Byles
I am delighted that the Transport Committee has said that it would look at the matter. I have the greatest respect for the Select Committee system in the House, and I hope that the Transport Committee will take an independent view of the various economic evidence.
The fact is that there are high-speed rail systems in operation throughout the world, and some of the evidence from some of those systems suggests that the claims being made for high-speed rail’s ability to regenerate regions are questionable. I have not yet seen a fundamental or overarching review and analysis of existing systems. We can physically look at them, and measure the numbers and the impact, and some of those numbers are negative. We must discuss that, and analyse the figures before we spend the money.
Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)
I am interested in my hon. Friend’s core argument that high-speed rail may suck economic growth from the regions, because that seems to run contrary to what most people lobbied for—greater speed of connection to the capital. Most places in the regions that have travel times to London of one hour or less market themselves heavily on the basis of the shorter journey time. They see it as a positive advantage, and that seems to run contrary to what the academics in Barcelona are saying.
Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)
Order. I do not want to impede debate, but a huge number of hon. Members want to speak this afternoon.
Dan Byles
I will sum up with a quote from the conclusion of the report from the university of Barcelona, which looked at five high-speed rail systems around the world. It states;
“Finally, the economic impacts of HSR are somewhat limited. The largest cities in the network might receive limited gains, but this is not the case for intermediate cities, which might see economic activities being drained away and suffer an overall negative impact.”
The report is not definitive, but before we spend £17 billion of taxpayers’ money, the issues raised in it should be addressed. I will be delighted if the Transport Committee looks at that, and I shall certainly send it a copy. We must thoroughly understand what we are doing, because we could do untold damage to our country at very great cost if we do not get it right.
Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)
Order. It is not within my powers to impose a time limit on debates, but hon. Members could look at the huge number of colleagues who want to speak and do the mathematics themselves—it is about six minutes each.
Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)
I declare an interest as the representative for King’s Cross, Euston and St Pancras stations, and as a member of the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers—I pay it a subscription; it pays me nothing. I do not apologise if I seem nimbyish. I understand that the Secretary of State has attacked people for being nimbys, but 350 to 360 people in my constituency face the demolition of their homes, and “nimby” does not cover that. For many of my constituents, it is not “not in my backyard”, but “not in my front room”. My job is to try to represent them.
The proposed 50-metre extension to the west of Euston station would involve, in addition to knocking down people’s homes, concreting over a small park and preventing the proposed rebuilding of Maria Fidelis convent school. In addition to the formal extension, all sorts of changes would be needed to the approach roads. There would have to be provision for off-station taxi ranks and all sorts of other things, which would involve further demolition outside the lines that have so far been drawn on the map. My opposition started with those points, and I make no apology for it.
However, the more I look at the proposals, the more doubtful I have become. Let us assume that High Speed 2 is a good idea. Even if it is, it is not a good idea to have Euston as the terminus. It has no connection with the Heathrow Express, and never will. It will have no connection with Crossrail, and it has no connection with High Speed 1, so it is not well connected.
Tony Baldry
I seek information, as I am now totally confused. Will the right hon. Gentleman explain to the Chamber what the connection is between HS2, Heathrow airport and Crossrail?
Frank Dobson
As I understand it, because Euston does not have a connection to Heathrow Express and Crossrail, it has been necessary to propose a parkway station at Old Oak Common that will have connections to those lines. That additional expense could otherwise have been avoided. As a result of the inadequacies of Euston, the parkway proposition for Old Oak Common—alias Wormwood Scrubs—had to be added to the proposal. Instead, the line could be brought into Paddington station, which already has links to Heathrow Express and will be on Crossrail. When I pushed that point, people from High Speed 2 said that Paddington could not cope with the number of passengers. Paddington has as many tube connections as Euston and, as I have pointed out, it will link to Heathrow Express and Crossrail. That excuse for not using Paddington appears to be of little relevance.
Kelvin Hopkins
Another point is that unlike Paddington, the Euston option would require expensive tunnelling to get through London. Once Crossrail is built, Paddington will have extra capacity for a platform for HS2, were we to go ahead with it.
Frank Dobson
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. Another point is the connection with HS1. We are told that great strategists with vinegar-soaked towels around their heads came up with HS2 as the first stage of a great, high-speed rail network. They seemed not to notice that they had not proposed a connection with the only existing part of the high-speed rail network, High Speed 1, which comes into St Pancras station.
Mrs Villiers
I assure the right hon. Gentleman that the mistake that the previous Government made in not providing for a link between domestic and international services has been remedied by the current Government; such a link is part of our plans.
Frank Dobson
I know the Minister is an optimist, but if she thinks I am going to leap to the defence of Lord Adonis, she is a super-optimist. There was no connection—oh dear, the great strategists clean forgot. Now they have bodged a connection. There will be a third bore—if hon. Members will excuse the term—from Old Oak Common, coming out at Primrose Hill. The tunnel will be bored in parallel with the other two tunnels coming into Euston, and will proceed along the North London line to connect to HS1. So far, no one has explained whether it will connect to HS1 through the HS1 line, or by going into the HS1 part of St Pancras station. Perhaps the Minister can elucidate, but I doubt it because I do not think the people at HS2 quite know what they are talking about. Something else that did not appear in the announcement is that the proposal is for that tunnel, and the bit on the North London line, to proceed only at conventional speed. It will be HS2, then a slow bit, then HS1—and we are still supposed to regard the people who came up with that proposition as a set of railway strategists.
When HS1 was being built, I recall that the people from Bechtel looked at the possibility of using the North London line as the route into St Pancras. They decided that the cuttings, embankments and bridges along that line were so lousy that it would be cheaper to bore through to St Pancras, which was a considerable distance. When I pointed that out to someone from HS2, they were unaware of that small and apparently irrelevant fact.
If we talk of strategy, we must look at the promises made for the high-speed rail network. People have been told that it will be a great network, and that we will continue it further north. Under the strategy, the line will split at Birmingham and part of it will go to Manchester and eventually to Glasgow. In the east it will go first to Leeds and then to Newcastle and Edinburgh. The proposal is for the line to get as far as Birmingham by 2026. I, however, am confident enough to make two forecasts of my own about the London to Birmingham line. First, it will not be in operation by 2026, and secondly it will cost more than the present estimate. I am willing to take bets from any hon. Members present at the end of the debate. If I lose, they will no doubt have to pursue my grandchildren for the debt.
I do not pay attention to the prognostications, if there are any, about the likely weight of traffic on the route, or what the scheme is likely to bring in. As my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) said, if the Office for Budget Responsibility cannot come up with a suggestion for what is likely to happen at the end of the current year, there are slim chances of anyone—whether for, against or doubtful about the project—coming up with an accurate prognostication about what will happen in 2025-26 or, in the case of Leeds and Manchester, 2035 or 2040. Then there are Glasgow and Edinburgh. My grandchildren, who now reappear in this story, are likely to go on the train from London to Glasgow using their senior railcards; that is the time scale we are talking about.
David Mowat
The right hon. Gentleman speaks well about the difficulties in forecasting, particularly far into the future. That is why it is extremely important that the business case for the scheme is based on a conservative estimate. Does he admit that while long-distance rail travel has increased by 5% per annum over the past 15 years, in its business case, the Department for Transport has put that increase at 1.4% over the next decade or so? That is pretty conservative.
Frank Dobson
I do not wish to be rude, but the only thing to add to the hon. Gentleman’s contribution is, “Or I will eat my hat.” I do not have the faintest idea which of those estimates is true, and the odds are that neither will prove true. He knows that as well as I do. We should not be whacking in all this money on the basis of estimates that nobody can back up. All we are really faced with is the proposition that we should support a fast shuttle between Birmingham and London.
Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)
Order. We are now in the 11th minute of the right hon. Gentleman’s speech. If hon. Members wish to speak they should stop intervening. If they do not want to speak, they can continue to intervene.
Angie Bray
I will be very brief. The right hon. Gentleman’s case seems to be that we should never do anything on the basis that we might not be absolutely certain about it. Sometimes projects have to be started. If we never start a project, we will never get any progress.
Frank Dobson
I will finish on that point. I was always a strong supporter of the channel tunnel and the channel tunnel link. When the same preposterous railway strategists came up with a proposal to place the terminus for High Speed 1 in a cave under King’s Cross station, I was among those who led the opposition to that and proposed St Pancras station instead; we were not entirely nimbyist. Whatever anybody says, that has been a brilliant success. I do not believe that the people who come up with these proposals have done the work properly. If we are to have a proper high-speed network, this is the last way and last place in which to start it.
Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Walker. I add my congratulations to my hon. Friends the Members for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) and for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) and to other right hon. and hon. Members who lobbied for the debate.
I wanted to speak for three reasons. First, I have a long-standing interest in the subject. One reason why I came into politics was to help shape the big strategic decisions that we have to take as a country. I do not want us to look back in 30 or 40 years and realise that we have made the wrong decision.
Secondly, I have a local, constituency interest. My Milton Keynes seat is not on the proposed route for High Speed 2, but it could benefit from the knock-on effects that High Speed 2 would deliver in freeing up capacity on the west coast main line for both commuter services and longer distance stopping services. Anyone who wants to commute from Milton Keynes in peak hours will know that we are severely overcrowded. My other local interest is that although the line does not come through Milton Keynes, it comes close enough for me to have a real understanding of the fact that communities along the line of route will be severely affected. We should not just dismiss the concerns of local residents as though they were Lady Ludlow in “Cranford” objecting to the coming of the railways. They are real communities with real concerns about the impact of the line.
Thirdly and most significantly, I am a member of the Select Committee on Transport and we have recently agreed to conduct a strategic inquiry into high-speed rail. It will not relate specifically to this line of route, but look more widely at the strategic cases for and against high-speed rail in the United Kingdom. I can genuinely say that I will consider all the arguments and evidence objectively. If the strategic case is not made or the detailed plans do not meet the strategic need, I will not support them. However, my starting point is to give high-speed rail in the United Kingdom a fair wind.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith), who is no longer in his place, and my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) have mentioned, the other countries that have developed high-speed rail networks—Spain, Germany, France, China and Japan—cannot all be wrong. Yes, there will be differences of detail, but they cannot all be wrong, so we must give high-speed rail a fair wind.
It is clear that we need additional north-south rail capacity in the United Kingdom. Anyone travelling on the west coast main line knows that. I will not go into the detailed arguments now, because of the time constraints. Upgrades could be made to that line and to the east coast main line. There is the Rail Package 2—RP2—project. There are measures such as lengthening trains, improving signalling and removing some of the pinchpoints. All those things can and, I would argue, should happen, but I fear that that is not the complete answer. Those upgrades would buy time. If the High Speed 2 proposals went through, the first trains would start running in 2026—15 years from now. The upgrades to the classic rail network would buy us time over those 15 years, and they should happen, but we need to consider what comes next, because I fear that the upgrades have a finite capacity. This is not an either/or situation; we need to consider both.
The nub of the issue is this: what long-term strategic capacity do we need on our railways? I hope that in the course of our investigation in the Select Committee, we will be able to test robustly the likely demand in respect of freight and passengers, for both inter-city and commuter journeys. All the evidence is that there will be upward pressure, but we need to test that robustly. We also need to consider whether High Speed 2 will be active or passive in meeting that demand. Do we simply assume that that increase in demand will happen, or is there a finite point at which, without any other economic change, a total number of journeys will be reached? In my view, it should be active in looking at how high-speed rail can stimulate economic growth.
My hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire referred to the university of Barcelona, but there are also many other studies. I draw right hon. and hon. Members’ attention to the work of Professor Roger Vickerman of the university of Kent, who has written widely on this subject and gave evidence to the Transport Committee in a separate inquiry that we conducted into transport and the economy. I will not summarise all his work—it is very detailed and complex—but one of his findings was that the issue is not just putting in a new line. That in itself will not be enough. It is what else happens, connecting towns and cities around the sites of the termini—the extra capacity and the linkage that go in there. That makes a difference.
Damian Collins
Of course, my constituency is at the end of the High Speed 1 network. I do not think that we would find anyone in east Kent who does not see the High Speed 1 connection as a catalyst for further economic regeneration that will be delivered for many years to come.
Iain Stewart
My hon. Friend makes a very important point. We need to consider that broader strategic case. Yes, we are considering the first phase, from London to Birmingham, and then the second phase, the Y shape, to Leeds and Manchester, but we need to go further than that. We need to consider the case for connecting this to Scotland. Recently, I was at a launch jointly held by the leaders of Glasgow and Edinburgh city councils, who have proposed that as well as building from south to north, we should build from north to south. We need to ensure that we consider the case for connecting the airports and for freeing up capacity on the classic lines to ports so that increased freight can be transferred there. All those lessons can also come from abroad to influence our considerations here.
I come now to the environmental points. Again, we need to consider what has happened abroad. The proposed high-speed line will have an operating speed of 250 mph, which is a significant increase on the operating speeds of most high-speed lines in the country. I urge caution on that point. Let us consider Japan, for example. The new generation of the Shinkansen or bullet train can operate at about 250 mph, but it is being limited in its speed because of noise pollution concerns.
I would need to dust down my physics textbooks from school to go into the detail, but there are concepts such as tunnel boom noise—if a train operates at such a high speed, it creates additional noise pollution that does not affect conventional TGV lines. We need to consider that. It is significant because some of the possible routes for High Speed 2 have been ruled out by the 250 mph operating speed. That has to do with the curvature of the line. If we conclude that we can operate a high-speed network at a lower speed, at about 180 or 190 mph, we open up the possibility of looking at the high-speed line following the line of route of an existing transport corridor—perhaps the M40, the M1 or the M6. We need to consider all those points.
I am conscious of the time; I know that many other hon. Members want to speak. The point is that we need to consider all the arguments carefully. This is one of the biggest and most significant transport infrastructure projects that we have had to face for a generation. Get it right and we will have a world-class transport system in this country. Get it wrong and we will have wasted billions of pounds and disrupted many communities without having proper gain from it.
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
I am glad that we are seeing all-party support as well as opposition to High Speed 2 today. I believe that the UK needs and deserves high-speed rail. Notwithstanding the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson), I wonder who now regrets the building of High Speed 1 or the channel tunnel. Crossrail was a very difficult project to get through. Again, it affects my own constituency. The Thames tunnel is another one of those major infrastructure projects that this country used to be well known for, and used to have the courage to go ahead with, but which we are now seen to be fearful of pursuing. Unfortunately, the spirit of Brunel does not seem to have infected many of those on the Government Benches.
Why should the benefits of high-speed rail, whether as an alternative to air travel, as something that provides commercial benefits for trade or simply as a more civilised way for people to get around and meet friends and relations, be restricted in this country? Why should people in this country be restricted simply to getting to the continent and getting beyond that? Unlike my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), I would praise the contribution of Lord Adonis. He took it by the scruff of its neck and pushed it forward. I shall resist praising the Secretary of State, because I may be lynched if I mention his comments to Metro. He said:
“There is not much more to their argument than Nimbyism. I hear lots of arguments about whether the country can afford it, value for money and the business case. But 95 per cent of these arguments come from people who just happen to live in Wendover, Aylesbury or Amersham.”
I suspect that invitations to the Secretary of State for constituency dinners are rather fewer; perhaps that is why he said what he did. I rarely disagree with my right hon. Friend, but I do on this occasion. I have never before heard Shepherds Bush described as a parkway.
I visited the site of the Old Oak interchange two weeks ago; it is in the north of my constituency. It is a large brownfield site that has always been railway land, and it is a wholly suitable location. There will be six new platforms for High Speed 2, and eight new platforms for the Great Western line, Crossrail and the Heathrow express—and, indeed, the direct link to High Speed 1. It seems entirely sensible to put the interchange just outside London; it is only a few minutes away from Euston but it gives a direct link. It will be the UK’s major rail interchange, and it is a sensible place to put it.
Tony Baldry
It seems that the hon. Gentleman does not have any constituents whose homes will be demolished. Does his speech not reinforce what Lord Adonis said—that with the HS2 project everyone wants the stations but no one wants the track?
Mr Slaughter
I shall say a word in favour of nimbyism in a moment.
Yes, it is true that my constituency will suffer no loss of property, and I am obviously delighted by the fact. Indeed, 5,000 jobs and a minimum of 1,600 homes will be created by the new infrastructure. It will be a positive development in one of the most deprived areas of the country—White City, Shepherds Bush and Old Oak. I should say that I live five minutes from there, but it will put my constituents 10 minutes from Heathrow and just over 40 minutes from Birmingham. These are the sort of projects of which the country used to be proud, and it used to seek mitigation for them rather than avoiding them altogether on the basis that such decisions are difficult to make.
Having said that, I believe that the project is good not only because the route and the interchange have some parochial benefit but because they give direct access to the Great Western line, Crossrail, the Heathrow express and HS1 just a few minutes outside central London. That is an improvement.
I have two caveats for the Minister, if she will take the advice. First, the Government need to look for friends wherever they can, but they have not done that so far. Last year’s debate was on 11 March, almost a year ago, and the Minister was then Opposition spokesman. Her aggressive stance rather belied the fact that she supported the announcement made by Lord Adonis. Her questions then are ones that she could answer today. She asked:
“Will they match our commitment to start work immediately on taking the line beyond Birmingham to Manchester and Leeds as part of stage 1?...Why will they not match our commitment to start construction by 2015? What guarantees can they give that fares will be kept within the reach of ordinary families on modest incomes?”
Those are all questions that the Minister might want to answer today. Rather churlishly I thought, she then said about Old Oak:
“Although we do not rule out use of that site for dispersal, the idea that some kind of ‘Wormwood Scrubs international’ station is the best rail solution for Heathrow is just not credible.”— [Official Report, 11 March 2010; Vol. 507-08, c. 450.]
I remind the Minister of this every time the subject comes up, and I know that she is happy to eat those words.
Mr Slaughter
I shall give way in a moment. So that bygones can be bygones perhaps the Minister will say, “I would be delighted if it was called Wormwood Scrubs International” when she comes to open it.
Mrs Villiers
It would be a pleasure. I hope that the hon. Gentleman is aware that the Government’s proposals include a direct link to Heathrow as part of phase 2 of the project.
Mr Slaughter
Absolutely, but that was always in Lord Adonis’ mind. The report that he commissioned from Lord Mawhinney clearly said that Old Oak was an appropriate, good-quality terminus and connection point to the airport, and pointed out that the Conservatives’ previous scheme of having the interchange at Heathrow would cost between £2 billion and £4 billion more; he effectively rubbished that scheme in favour of the Adonis project, which is what we have gone back to.
As I say, we should let bygones be bygones—except for this point. When the Secretary of State launched the scheme on 20 December, he made a statement in the House without presenting Members with plans and documents, so we were entirely in the dark. He went to Old Oak and launched the scheme that morning, giving notice to everyone, including the Conservative party, but not the constituency MP. The Minister and HS2 are rather short of friends at the moment, and they should look to cultivate people a little more if they wish to continue to have them speak out on their behalf.
As far as I am aware—other Members may have seen it—there is no HS2 briefing for this debate. I had no correspondence until I approached HS2 about a visit to the site. The consultation is not adequate. The only consultation for my constituents is to be held at the Westfield shopping centre, which is a long way from the site and an entirely inappropriate location, for one day; it happens to be tomorrow. If the Minister has some influence, she could take the message back to High Speed 2 that it is not making friends through its their approach.
A more serious point is this. Notwithstanding what I said in response to the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) about the effect on individual constituencies, mitigation will be the key to the project’s success. That applies to my constituency, as much of the tunnelling will take place from the Old Oak interchange. When it comes to the disposal of spoil, the road network in the area is entirely inadequate given the traffic that will be generated. We may not have anything quite like the Chilterns in Shepherds Bush, but we do have Wormwood Scrubs. It is a large open space that is ecologically sensitive, and I have been protecting it not for years but for many decades. If HS2 and the Government wish to have, if not their support, then at least the acquiescence of hon. Members, they need to go a lot further.
Stephen Pound
I shall be very brief, as I know that my hon. Friend is reaching the end of his peroration. I know that people are listening, as ever, to his words with great interest, but does he agree with Councillor Ed Rennie of Perivale, who says that it is ludicrous to hold the HS2 consultation that affects Perivale in Greenford, and would it not be better to hold it in Perivale? That is very much in line with what my hon. Friend said about the vast echoing distances between Wormwood and Westfield.
Mr Slaughter
I can only say that if I could end all my speeches with a quote from Perivale I would be a much greater orator.
Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)
Colleagues seem to have a fairly elastic idea of six minutes, but six minutes is a good idea.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
We are all agreed that we want the UK economy to grow, and that we want a greater rebalancing of the economy. That means giving more impetus to the regions. We are all agreed that we want to reduce internal aircraft flights so as to reduce carbon emissions. The question for the House is whether spending the same, or even a lesser, amount of money than is proposed for HS2 in other ways would give us the same or better policy outcomes.
The right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) was right to say that the policy was put upon us, fully formed and out of the blue, shortly before the general election. This is the first debate in which the House has had the chance to give intensive scrutiny to this multi-billion pound project. That puts an enormous responsibility on the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) and the Select Committee on Transport; on behalf of the House, they have undertaken to inquire into HS2 and the alternatives. We all need to look to the Select Committee to carry out an independent and objective inquiry. One thing that I have learned in my time in the House is that when both Front-Bench teams are in agreement, the Back Benchers have to start counting the spoons. It is always dangerous when both Front-Bench teams are in agreement.
Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)
The inquiry being undertaken by the Transport Committee is of a strategic nature. Its terms of reference have been set out, and I would not want there to be any misunderstanding about the scope and nature of the inquiry.
Tony Baldry
I understand the exact terms of reference. In holding a strategic inquiry, the hon. Lady and her Committee are doing the House a great service, because the earliest that the House could consider this matter otherwise would be in the hybrid Bill Committee. Such are the curious rules of the House that many of us would not be able to submit evidence to that Committee. This is exactly the time when we need a strategic inquiry into the principles of HS2 and the alternative. As I said, when both Front-Bench teams are in agreement, there is always a danger that things can get overlooked.
Let me explain how it is possible for our country, in its understandable desire to incorporate and embrace what was in the 1960s called the white heat of technology, to get things really badly wrong. More than 20 years ago, my first job in Government as a junior Minister was helping John Wakeham to privatise the electricity industry. Part of my brief was responsibility for nuclear power. We had to consider whether we could incorporate nuclear power within the privatisation. I could not understand why no one had thought of the contingent liabilities of decommissioning the nuclear power stations and the cost of nuclear waste. I will not detain the House, save to say that I went back and looked at the ministerial papers and press cuttings of some 20 or 30 years previously, when nuclear power stations were first being built. No one, either in government or outside, had given any proper consideration to the costs of decommissioning nuclear power stations, or of storing and disposing of nuclear waste.
We are all here representing the taxpayers. I think this is the first debate in Westminster Hall at which Mr Speaker has thought it appropriate to be present. It was also telling that for quite a long time my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) was in his place. Unless I have badly misunderstood the routing of HS2, it does not affect Isle of Wight strategically, either in a nimby way or any other way. He was here, as we all are, representing taxpayers and the national interest. This is a project that will cost billions and billions of pounds. If we get it wrong, we get it seriously wrong. We all have a collective duty to get it right, so far as taxpayers are concerned.
I do not pretend to be a rail engineer. I do not pretend to know or to be able to make a value judgment on the benefits of HS2 versus the benefit of the Atkins or other reports. I hope that the Transport Committee and others will start to give some independent and objective analysis of that. I hope that they will pick up the rather important point made by the right hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth), with a little prompting from me: the scheme could have a detrimental impact on parts of the regions. Birmingham might benefit from the line, but Coventry might not; Leeds might benefit, but Wakefield might lose out. All those things have to be properly assessed.
This is not a debate that can be dealt with in set-piece forums such as this. We are talking about an issue that the country will live with for years and years. It behoves Parliament to get it right, and it behoves us, as Back Benchers, to ensure that the structures of the House, and especially the Select Committee, subject the project to the intellectual rigour and investigation that it needs, so that present taxpayers and future generations get the right answers.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve for the first time under your chairmanship, Mr Walker. The hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) suggested that when both Front-Bench teams are in agreement, we should count the spoons. Given that I broadly agree with him, I am not sure what we should be counting. Hopefully, as a member of the Transport Salaried Staffs Association and a former Network Rail employee who worked on a number of civil engineering and major projects, I will bring something to this debate.
The past 30 years of rail infrastructure projects in the UK have been somewhat chequered. There are some great successes: we have reopened a number of rail lines; reconnected communities; and brought social and economic benefits to large parts of the United Kingdom, and a permanent link to mainland Europe. Those are, I hope, benefits in everyone’s eyes. However, we have had some significant failures in those rail projects. Each one has been over budget, if we look at what the politicians claimed originally and the actual bill the taxpayer received. Many require ongoing subsidy and many communities have been blighted, including one in my area, thanks to the Stirling-Alloa-Kincardine railway.
The hon. Gentleman was right to make a point about budgets. This is not a party political point. The channel tunnel came in desperately over budget, and there has been talk about ongoing problems with High Speed 1. To look at a small-scale project, the Stirling-Alloa-Kincardine railway, which only involved the reopening of seven miles of track, went from being £20 million originally to £77 million when it was finally delivered, and compensation cases are still to be resolved. The Airdrie Bathgate project, which I helped to deliver, was £40 million when it was first mooted and £300 million when it was actually delivered. For that reason alone, I do not believe a single figure that has been bandied around for the cost of any section of HS2 and its successor projects.
If the line reaches Edinburgh, a whole new station would have to be constructed, because Edinburgh cannot take high-speed rail. The current station is right in the city centre and there is no capacity left for any more track or platforms. That means that a whole new set of connecting track would need to be laid from the parkway station that would be required to the network, and those costs have not been worked out.
The question is: who benefits from high-speed rail? It only works if it travels great distances between stops. It needs to get up to high speed to make the time savings. This is a blindingly obvious thing to say, but every time we add a stop, it adds several minutes to the journey. That is not just because the train has to slow down and pick up speed again, but because passengers have to get off and on the train.
I hope that the Minister will learn from successive Ministers, both in Scotland and elsewhere in the UK, that leadership is required. When a route is set out, she must not give in to the very eloquent lobbying that she will get from many Members who will say, “Of course I support it, but you need to add my local area to it.” The line can only work if it is genuinely high-speed and connects only the great conurbations. I doubt that either Warrington or even Carlisle will qualify on those grounds, despite the eloquent cases that will be made for them.
The Minister must recognise that we need to have rolling stock in place before we start to build. One of the great reasons for the failure of the Edinburgh airport rail link was that Ministers in Scotland tried to build a rail link under a live airport without any clear sense of what the rolling stock would actually look like. For instance, for safety reasons, it is impossible to send a diesel train underground, and a whole network would need to be electrified. That project floundered because it was impossible to find suitable rolling stock that worked anywhere in the world. One of my great concerns about High Speed 2 and its successors is that I have not heard a clear articulation of what the required rolling stock is. Perhaps when the Minister responds to the debate she can say whether the Government have identified suitable rolling stock that actually exists somewhere on track, rather than on paper.
I sound a final note of caution about the independence of the business case. The Minister is fully aware of the ongoing dispute between the TSSA and Network Rail, which she has been helping to mediate. That dispute is about the past leadership of Iain Coucher, the former chief executive of Network Rail. I do not wish to detain the House, but there are some very serious concerns about Mr Coucher’s financial practices and about why he has spent so much taxpayers’ money lobbying for a high-speed rail project. I hope that the Minister will give a cast-iron guarantee that Mr Coucher and his associates will play no part in the delivery of high-speed rail, if and when it goes ahead.
In conclusion—I am trying to stick to your six-minute limit, Mr Walker—there are five key things that the Minister must demonstrate for this project to go ahead. First, there must be robust and independent analysis of the business case and the time savings. Secondly, clear leadership must be given on delivery. Thirdly, there must be no compromises on stations once the route is set out. Fourthly, there must be rolling stock that actually exists on track somewhere, rather than in someone’s head. Fifthly, there must be honesty about ongoing costs for the subsidy of the line of route and the rolling stock.
Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)
I am grateful to you, Mr Walker, for calling me to speak. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship.
First, I want to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) on securing this debate. I know that this issue is a major concern for her constituents and she is an extremely diligent campaigner who serves them well. I also regard her as a much-valued colleague.
I have been very keen to have the opportunity to debate the plans for high-speed rail. Indeed, just last month I called for this debate so that Members would have the chance to take on the misinformation that has been spread by the alliance of luddites and nimbys who oppose the plans. It appears that my comments sparked outrage in some quarters and I am truly sorry for that. I did not intend to cause offence. My only aim was to describe accurately the opponents of High Speed 2 and I firmly believe that my description of them was accurate.
That belief was compounded after I was bombarded by letters from furious people. Curiously enough, they all live very near to the proposed route for HS2 and many of them wore the “nimby” label unashamedly and with pride. Having said that, my favourite of those letters said:
“I am not a nimby, I just don’t want a railway line built near my house.”
Other letters suggested that northerners should be grateful that they already have a railway line and a motorway, and should stop complaining.
I could joke all day about the ridiculous comments made by nimbys, but on a serious note it is worrying when a very small group of people from a tiny slither of one of the wealthiest areas in the country seeks to thwart a major infrastructure project that would be of huge benefit to the whole country and that was a manifesto promise of all three main parties, which received a combined 88% share of the vote at the general election.
The nimbys are attempting to thwart the project by peddling a series of myths. First, they are trying to present the debate about high-speed rail as a false choice. They claim that, instead of funding HS2, we should focus on improving rail capacity, but the high-speed rail link will free up capacity for existing commuter lines and, crucially, for freight on a network that is already overstretched. Network Rail supports the plans for that reason, saying:
“HS2 solves the capacity challenge”.
That leads me neatly to the second myth, that doing nothing is an option. Our key rail routes are expected to be completely full in the next 20 years. Our international competitors are already ahead of the game and have invested heavily in high-speed rail. If we do not act now, we will be left behind and the long-term effects on our global competitiveness could be devastating.
Thirdly and most importantly for our nimby friends, let us deal with the myth that the proposals for high-speed rail will lead to the destruction of the countryside. The Government have rightly gone to considerable lengths to reduce noise and to minimise the number of properties that will be affected by the route. In total, 340 properties will be affected, 216 of which are in central London. Only 10 properties will suffer from high noise levels.
Next, let me answer those who claim that the business case has yet to be made for high-speed rail, despite conservative estimates that the project will have initial economic benefits of £43 billion and will create 40,000 jobs. I have already touched on the importance of high-speed rail to our international competitiveness, which is very hard to quantify. However, the benefits to businesses based in my constituency and the rest of the north are very clear.
Graham Evans
I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. Varying and conflicting figures are bandied around, but there is a fundamental issue that was mentioned earlier. These train stations will not be built and these train lines will not reach my constituency until the 2020s. I have a young family and I am thinking of the futures of my children and my children’s children. It is very important that we make these very difficult decisions now. We could argue all day about conflicting figures, but it is very important that we push ahead with this project, which is important for our country’s future, including that of our children and our children’s children.
High-speed rail gives businesses the gift of time. Anyone who has a business background, as I do, knows the truth of the old saying, “Time is money”. In this case, that means more than slashing travel times to less than 80 minutes between Manchester and London. Neil Stephenson, the chief executive of a Newcastle-based IT firm, put it best in a recent article. He wrote:
“The failure of Britain’s transport system translates into missed meetings, unexpected overnight stays, disappointed customers and frazzled staff. A quick, cheap, reliable train service means I can build a customer base in places our employees couldn’t previously service without expensive hotel bills and missed night-time stories for their kids. And it means I can recruit from the high-end IT talent pools of London. These are tangible benefits that will help me build my business.”
Angie Bray
Would the business case for high-speed rail be even better for some of the businesses up north if there was a stop on the main route at Heathrow? Part of the case that is made for extending high-speed rail up to the north is that business men who want to travel abroad and need to get to Heathrow could go on a train rather than a plane. Therefore, would it not be sensible and would it not make the business case even more persuasive if Heathrow was on the main route, which of course it was in some of the alternative proposals?
Graham Evans
I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for that very good point, but perhaps the Minister can answer her question in her summing-up.
Graham Evans
If I may, I will make progress. I am keen to keep to the six-minute limit that the Chairman suggested, so that colleagues can have their say.
Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con)
Will my hon. Friend give way very briefly?
Chris White
I thank my hon. Friend. He mentioned the business man in the north who wants to recruit high-quality IT talent. Does he not think that that high-quality IT talent might be using the internet rather than wanting £34 billion of money to be spent on high-speed rail infrastructure?
Graham Evans
Well, I am sorry that I gave way to my hon. Friend. [Laughter.] I can only go on what business men in the north of England are saying and it is true that markets in the south-east of England should be open to the whole of the UK. That is why many high-profile business leaders have backed high-speed rail and why it will help to reduce the north-south divide. My colleague from Yorkshire, my hon. Friend the Member for Calder Valley (Craig Whittaker), is no longer in his place but he made that point earlier.
There are many reasons why the south is more prosperous than the north, but one of the most obvious is the south’s proximity to our major trading markets in Europe. High-speed rail allows us to close that gap between north and south, and to bring our country closer together. I am therefore very proud to support the Government’s high-speed rail plans and I also praise the previous Labour Government and Lord Adonis in particular for the important steps that they took.
Having said that, I am increasingly concerned about the current Labour party and its position on HS2. The shadow Transport spokesman, the hon. Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle), has indicated that HS2 has been dumped by Labour, along with every other policy now that Labour has started again with “a blank piece of paper”. Last week the deputy Leader of the Opposition, the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman), said that most of Labour’s cuts would come from holding back on capital investment. Some clarification is urgently required. If Labour were to oppose this once-in-a-lifetime investment in the north, I know that my constituents would never forgive them.
Let me conclude by saying that railways have always been a crucial part of Britain’s economic prosperity. They drove the massive growth in living standards during the 19th century and created new opportunities for people from every corner of our country, but even then small-minded obstructionists stood in the way of progress who were not too dissimilar to those we have today. The ladies of Cranford eventually came round to the idea of the railway. I hope that the opponents of high-speed rail will also see the light some day, as our future economic competitiveness depends on high-speed rail.
Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)
It is very polite of you, colleagues, to take interventions, but if you continue to do so, you will deny other colleagues the opportunity to speak.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
I shall adhere to your injunction to be brief, Mr Walker. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) for securing the debate, and also my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant)—who is not in his place—for leading the charge to secure an inquiry from the Transport Committee into HS2.
I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) that I shall not invite him to any of my supper clubs in the near future. My constituents are not nimbys. I have spoken to several hundred of them over the past months, and I saw about 80 last Saturday. They tell me that if it can be demonstrably proven that the business case stacks up, if there are proper mitigations in place in their vicinity, and if they get fair and reasonable compensation for the loss they suffer, they will, through gritted teeth, accept the proposal. The trouble, as we have heard today, is that the business case has not been proven, mitigations are not yet known—the route was announced last December but in the Tamworth area we are still waiting for a roadshow, which we will not get until June—and, although we have had hints about compensation for blight, we still do not know anything about what we might get. People are understandably very concerned.
I will not dwell on the value side of the business case and the holes that have been found in it during the debate, because my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire has already done that very eloquently, as have other Members. However, let me say this about it: the net value ratio, which has been significantly reduced by HS2 Ltd—so it accepts that it is wrong—still uses as its basis for generating demand the Passenger Demand Forecasting Handbook, version 4.1, which Sir Rod Eddington has said is out of date, uses incorrect views on saturation of demand, future technological advances and competition that might affect demand, and that we should be using version 5.0. I look forward to my right hon. Friend the Minister’s making it clear in her remarks that that particular handbook will be used to generate demand, and that HS2 Ltd will be directed to do its sums again.
I want to focus on the cost side of the business case. Other Members have pointed out that one should never believe a Government when they talk about how much they will spend on capital infrastructure projects. Phase 1 of HS2 has been identified as costing £17.1 billion, but phase 2, the Y-shaped link, adds a further £13 billion or so, taking the total cost to more than £30 billion. We have heard that those figures might be right—they might be wrong—but the fact of the matter is that some figures that do not appear in the cost side should be included.
One of those key figures is the cost of blight. From Eversholt Street down by Euston all the way up to Whittington, businesses and properties are blighted by the proposed railway. They are blighted now, because if people in those places manage to sell their properties, they will lose 30%, 40% or even 50% of the value, and stamp duty accruing to the Treasury will fall. That is not costed in the business case, but it means that estate agents and solicitors will do less business, and vendors’ buying power will be reduced. None of that is in the cost side of the business case, and it ought to be.
Then we come to compensation. We have heard, and I have it in a letter—which I do not have in front of me, so I will not put words into his mouth—that the Secretary of State has indicated that the Government will look at innovative ways of providing some form of compensation. That needs to go into the business case, so that we know the true cost of the proposition, which I think could run into several hundred million pounds, further reducing the proposed net benefit ratio and further undermining HS2 Ltd’s case for building the railway.
I shall end here, as I am conscious that other Members wish to speak. I call upon the Minister to look again at the business case proposed by HS2 Ltd, and again, and more carefully, at Rail Package 2. There is still time for her to change her mind, and I hope that she considers doing so.
Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)
We have 30 minutes before I call the Front-Bench spokespeople and we have eight colleagues who want to speak, so do the mathematics.
Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con)
There were some emotional comments earlier, and I shall try to avoid making any more in my remarks in opposition to HS2.
In my view, any project of this scale should pass three key tests. Can we afford it, how effective is it, and will it achieve the kind of return on investment that justifies the expenditure? As we all know, HS2 will cost about £17 billion for the first part of the line, rising to £32 billion in total. That is more than we plan to spend on transport in the whole of next year, and more than we will collect in council tax in England and Wales. It comes at a time when we have to make considerable reductions in public spending in, for example, policing and defence. Although I respect the fact that the project will be carried out over many years, we should not pretend that it is somehow not extremely large or extremely expensive.
The Department for Transport has said that the project is affordable. Its own website states, in answer to a question on affordability:
“The country can’t afford not to invest in its future. All other major economies are pressing ahead with ambitious high speed rail plans - we cannot allow Britain to be left behind.”
I recently visited India with the International Development Committee, and we talked about the space programme in which the Indian Government are investing. I do not see the Minister for Universities and Science, my right hon. Friend the Member for Havant (Mr Willetts) coming before the House to seek its support for such a programme so that we do not get left behind.
The Department for Transport also says that HS2 will cost only £2 billion a year, and that most of the expenditure will occur after the next election. That is a dangerous way to consider a project. Such an approach has seen Departments such as the Ministry of Defence end up with a £38 million spending black hole. Every project should be considered carefully, and the issue of cost not avoided just because it happens to fall many years in the future. Moreover, £2 billion a year is almost as much as we spend on the pupil premium, which could arguably do more for our competitiveness and productivity. Given the fiscal pressure that we are under and the number of schemes across the country that have to operate in tight financial circumstances, we should not so lightly throw around £2 billion.
The scheme’s objectives have changed several times. When the Conservative party first articulated its support for HS2, it said that it did so because the project would ensure that a third runway at Heathrow would not be necessary. Then it was because HS2 would be good for the economy and for better connectivity. Now it is because extra capacity is necessary, but how effective will HS2 be in achieving those goals? One of the biggest problems with the project, and part of the reason why the cost is so important, is that we cannot know for certain what good will occur because of the new line. We should be extremely careful in claiming benefits when we simply do not know exactly what they will be.
Nevertheless, we should for one moment consider the nature of the economic world in which we live. Hundreds of years ago, during the industrial revolution, the necessity of physical access to materials and workplaces meant that being able quickly to get from one place to another had a considerable economic benefit. It was due to the development of the railways that Britain could take such a lead over competitor nations, but these days another economic revolution has occurred—the internet revolution. Increasingly, people do not need to move from one place to another because they can work from offices that can connect people all over the world to share data and hold meetings. Video conferencing is becoming more and more sophisticated and cost-effective, leading companies to reduce their travel and boost their productivity. Goods are made in several different locations, with the design and manufacturing taking place in totally different areas. That movement leaves HS2 looking more and more like a relic of our economic past.
Increases in capacity are of course important, and I agree that we need to ensure that we can meet future demand and increase access for freight to reduce costs in the long term. The point is that capacity, not speed, will lead to increased economic benefits—the chairman of HS2 Ltd said so himself, publicly. Unlike countries such as France and Spain, which have created high-speed rail lines, we already have high levels of interconnectivity between our major urban areas; we are, after all, a relatively small island. Back in 2007, the Eddington transport study confirmed that to be the case. The Department for Transport accepted the study and its analysis. What is needed, therefore, is investment in our existing transport infrastructure to boost the capacity we so desperately need.
Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr Walker. I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak in this debate. As I am mindful of the time, I certainly will not take my six minutes.
This is a timely debate, given that the Transport Committee is about to embark on an inquiry into high-speed rail. I urge the many right hon. and hon. Members who show a keen interest in the issue to make their views known so that our inquiry can take them into consideration when reaching a decision on the strategic viability of high-speed rail.
To put my cards on the table, I have always been a big supporter of creating a high-speed rail network that not only connects Birmingham and the northern cities of Manchester and Leeds but goes all the way to Scotland and allows rail services from Scotland to compete with domestic flights. At the same time, I recognise that an infrastructure project of such size can create a great deal of controversy, and that it will have a terrible impact on some people who live along the line.
I certainly would not decry any hon. Member for doing their job in representing their constituents’ concerns. Any infrastructure project of such a size will cause significant disruption and heartache for the people whom it affects. I have some sympathy with the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), given the impact that the project will have on his constituents.
In my constituency, the extension of the Metrolink is certainly causing a significant amount of heartache among many of my constituents who support the project on the whole but have problems with non-adherence to promises made before work was commenced. One can understand why some residents turn against schemes and have major concerns about their impact. That is why it is vital that clear and transparent decisions are made about the local environment and how it will be protected for the people most affected by the route, and that those decisions are stuck to. However, I certainly hope that high-speed rail will go ahead, and I will comment briefly on why I think it must.
By pressing ahead with a high-speed rail network, we can ensure sufficient rail capacity for the foreseeable future. Some opponents have argued that upgrading the existing main line networks would deal with any capacity constraints, but that would only address the problem in the short term. Ultimately, a high-speed rail network will inevitably be necessary. We must consider the next 100 years, not just the next 10. Some £10 billion has already been spent on upgrading the west coast main line, yet on 1 March, the new chief executive of Network Rail made it clear that the west coast main line would be at full capacity again within six to 10 years. In an answer to my question, he said that
“the West Coast line, within 10 years at the absolute maximum, and probably six years, will be at capacity, and that is with additional carriages included in the area. We can look at other tactical interventions in that line to put more capacity in there, but in the end it comes down to capacity: we will, across a number of key parts of our network, run out of capacity.”
The chief executive of Network Rail is absolutely clear that even with extra costly improvements, the west coast main line will not have enough capacity to deal with the growth in rail travel. We need the high-speed network to accommodate future rail travel.
Competing services and franchises are already battling for space on the network. We in Manchester are lucky to have a good service to London. I suppose that I should declare an interest as a regular user of that service, including the 9 o’clock train this evening. Due to the success of the franchise, Virgin is considering extending the service to four trains an hour rather than three, but doing so would adversely affect both local and regional services, so the local integrated transport authority understandably opposes any additional trains on the Manchester to London service. The creation of a high-speed network will release significant capacity on the existing network, allowing the expansion of regional and local services that are completely constrained at the moment by the needs of longer distance services.
To add a word of caution, I hope that the Minister can put hon. Members’ minds at rest about the impact of spending on high-speed rail. Many people have argued that we should not proceed with high-speed rail because it will result in a lack of investment in the existing network as all the money is diverted into paying for the high-speed network. It is worth pointing out that the coalition Government have already shown a commitment to investing in rail infrastructure, despite the difficult economic times. Again, I welcome the announcement in the Budget of funding for the Ordsall curve in Manchester, which will have a dramatic impact on capacity and journey times, but I hope that she can assure us that high-speed rail will not get the go-ahead at the expense of investment in the existing network. I hope that she will make that clear in her remarks.
Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Walker. I will try to be quick. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) on securing the debate. I take a completely different view from her. As a supporter of High Speed 2, I am rather glad that Mr Speaker is not here, as I do not think that he would ever call me again.
This subject has been mentioned in numerous debates, but a specific, dedicated debate is long overdue. We lag behind other countries. France, Spain, Italy, Japan and China have the technology and show that it works. As we debate the issue, France is finishing its seventh line. As I see it, we have a lot to learn from those countries. Not to do so would be a huge mistake. Our increasingly slow, congested and unreliable system is in danger of slowing our economic performance. Sometimes, when I leave King’s Cross station to go to Leeds, passengers are forced to stand up until Peterborough. Capacity is bursting at the seams. It threatens to increase the north-south divide. It is important that we consider the national as well as the local interest.
All sorts of figures have been bandied around in this debate. Some hon. Members claim that those figures are correct and some dispute them, but the economic benefits are suggested to be about £44 billion. The creation of 8,000 construction jobs and another 30,000 associated jobs is to be welcomed. It is a strategic investment that I believe will benefit Leeds and Manchester, and I am particularly delighted that the Government chose the Y option.
It is not true that the likes of Wakefield will not benefit. We are working on a city-region approach in Leeds, Bradford and other parts of Yorkshire. Many cities will enjoy the same benefits as Leeds. The project will reshape the economic geography of this country. High-speed rail will complement investment in the northern hub, which will allow faster and more frequent trains—an extra 700 a day—between cities in the north and could bring a benefit of up to £4 billion and 23,000 jobs to the region.
High-speed rail is not entirely a solution to the north-south divide, but it will go a long way towards solving the problem. The Independent said:
“All governments promise to shift national growth away from the south-east; high-speed rail is a policy that should help turn those good intentions into reality.”
I agree entirely with those sentiments.
High-speed rail is also a solution to fast-growing demand on an already crowded network. Travel on the London to Leeds route is forecast to increase by 44% between 2006 and 2016. It is a pressing problem. High-speed rail will reduce travel times from London to Leeds by an hour to 80 minutes, a fact that I will probably try to keep from the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority.
The journey time from Birmingham to Leeds will be reduced from two hours to an hour and five minutes. The east coast main line was closed when we had that bad snow over winter. I had to travel via Birmingham and then across to Leeds. It is a long and arduous journey, and it would be good to connect those two great cities.
I recognise the opposition that many of my right hon. and hon. Friends face in their constituencies. One action group has said that this is a
“vanity project for politicians who want fast trains for fat cats.”
No, it is not. Members want to see benefits brought to their constituencies. This is something that we have needed in the north for generations. As the Secretary of State for Transport has said:
“Ironically the further north we get the easier it will get”
and
“people seem to understand more clearly the argument on jobs and growth.”
We do, because we have had problems economically for years and this will help us to get there.
I also have a warning shot for people in the north, because we have been far too quiet. It is time for us to stand up and shout louder. It has been said recently that high-speed rail might be killed by apathy. I fear that that may be right, which is why I am speaking today. We must trumpet our support. I am delighted that the Yorkshire Post has gathered the names of politicians, council leaders and businesses as a call to arms to support the project. High-speed rail may do the one thing that we all thought impossible—unite Lancashire and Yorkshire in one voice.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) on securing this debate. I shall start by agreeing with her on a few points, but, unfortunately, our paths will then diverge. We should not do high-speed rail just because the rest of the world is doing it. Just because every other country in Europe is forging ahead with this does not mean that we should—I accept that argument. We should not do High Speed 2 just because the business case for High Speed 1, and the reason why it went to St Pancras, was that it could be linked to the north. That should not be the reason why we do it. We should not do it just because of the carbon saved. As has been pointed out, the modal shift is quite small. We should not do it as cover for our plans in relation to Heathrow.
We should do it only if three conditions exist: the business case has to be robust; we must be satisfied that there are transformational benefits; and, on a cash-flow basis, it has to be affordable. My hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) has talked about that final point, and I shall address that first. Roughly speaking, the cost in cash-flow terms is £2 billion a year, which is a great deal of money. However, it is, roughly speaking, the same as we are currently spending on Crossrail—I see the Minister nodding, which encourages me—and, by and large, it will start as Crossrail finishes. I support Crossrail and have no issue with it, but it is important that that point is understood.
We agree that the business case is vital, and this debate must centre on it. Some of the points that have been made about the business case during this debate are misinformed. Yes, there have to be forecasts of the future—that is what a forecast does. As I said in an intervention, rail usage has increased by 5% per annum over the past decade and a half. The business case upon which this project is justified assumes that it will continue to increase at 1.4% per annum. I agree that that might be too high, but it is certainly not radical.
The hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) made the point that the project is predicated on time savings. Yes, it is—it is a transport project and that is how we tend to justify such projects in terms of benefit. That is how Crossrail was justified and it will be how this is justified.
Another point is often made—I want to address this before it gets too much currency. We can work on the train these days. We have personal computers and so on, and are therefore productive. That is true and the business case does not properly take it into account. It does not take into account the fact that productivity of that nature exists and that, if someone is standing up on a crowded train, the losses are enormous. In fact, that precise issue is addressed on page 51 of the Department for Transport’s business case. The fact is that the business cost ratio increases if productivity due to internet usage on a train is taken into account.
I want to put a couple of things on the record in relation to transformational benefits. We can take the Barcelona view or we can take other views. During an earlier speech, somebody said that the train might not stop at Warrington. I agree, but that is not the point. The point is that the North-West chamber of commerce believes that the scheme will bring £8 billion-worth of benefits to my region. Those benefits will accrue to Warrington in the same way that they will accrue to Banbury and—dare I say it—Northampton. Let us at least get that clear.
A recent report that KPMG produced for Greengauge 21 estimates that there will be an incremental, steady-state increase in jobs of 40,000 in the north and the north-west due to the scheme. That might not be right—I am pleased that the Select Committee on Transport is going to validate the numbers—but these are important transformational issues, and they must be taken seriously.
My hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) is signalling to me—I think he wants to speak next. This debate must not be tarnished by nimbyism and all that goes with it. It is more important than that and too important for it. I accept that the most vociferous opposition comes from those counties that are impacted the most. In all fairness, I live in Cheshire and it may well be that, when the next bit is announced, I will be a nimby as well. Members are entitled to respect their constituents. I want to put on the record that I discovered during my research yesterday that two of the consultants who represent one of the most influential rail action groups against the proposal both live in Great Missenden. It is important, as we evaluate the scheme, that we get it right.
Finally, mitigation is important and the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) has made some good points about it. We need to take it seriously, but it is not as important as the transformational benefits that may accrue from the scheme if it happens.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
I am aware that I no longer have six minutes to speak, but that is, coincidentally, a thirteenth of the time that it will take to get from Leeds to London using high-speed rail. The Government have already done a lot to address the imbalance between the north and south, but I want them and colleagues to have the vision and ambition to crack on with high-speed rail. Across the north of England, Members of Parliament of all parties, civic leaders, the business community, higher education leaders and residents have all made clear that viewpoint. People have already referred to the Yorkshire Post letter, which was signed by 21 MPs from all three main parties, 14 council leaders and more than 50 major companies, including O2, Yorkshire Bank and Eversheds. The demand clearly exists, as those of us who have endured several hours of standing on packed trains when returning to our constituencies will know. I hope that I will not have to do that on the train back to west Yorkshire this evening.
The issue is about capacity as well. Even Network Rail says that it supports high-speed rail,
“because it is the best solution to meet the challenge of fast-growing demand on an already crowded network”.
It forecasts a growth in passenger numbers of 44% by 2016. That time is near, so I hope that it is accurate.
High-speed rail will close the gap between the south and the north of England. It will boost competitiveness, create jobs and attract international businesses. At a time when we are seeking to demonstrate to the world that Britain is open for business, actions speak louder than words. High Speed 2 is the action that the north of England has needed for many years. The economic case is clear, the public desire is overwhelming, and the benefit to the region’s economy cannot be understated. Without high-speed rail, we risk a two-speed nation. To remain internationally competitive, we cannot allow that to happen. I urge the Government to deliver for the north of England and to deliver HS2.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
I am pleased to contribute to this very important debate about the High Speed 2 programme. I suspect that I may be interrupted by a Division in the House. I congratulate Conservative Members and my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) on applying to the Backbench Business Committee to allocate time for the debate. We have been provided with the opportunity to listen to the views, opinions and concerns of right hon. and hon. Members from across the House.
As mentioned, Labour in government set out a vision for a high-speed rail line running from London to Birmingham and on to Leeds, Manchester and eventually Scotland. I welcome the public consultation on High Speed 2 launched by the Government in February. They boasted that it would be one of the biggest and most wide-ranging consultations every undertaken by a Government. We need to have a full discussion about high-speed rail, especially for the communities that will be directly affected by the construction of the line.
Andrew Gwynne
Before I was interrupted, I was about to say that it is clear that a project of this size and scale will not be without controversy, which I shall come on to later. However, I certainly recognise the importance of increasing capacity and connectivity in rail, particularly in respect of the west coast main line and the Chiltern line. The previous Labour Government rightly assessed that improved transport capacity would be needed from the 2020s between our major cities, starting with the route from London to the west midlands, two of Britain’s largest conurbations. The projections show that by then, the west coast main line will be at capacity. It is projected that, by 2033, the average long-distance west coast main line train will be 80% full, with routine severe overcrowding for much of the time.
Perhaps there will be benefits from some of the suggestions put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins), the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) and my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West and others, but I also understand the argument that the development of the 335-mile Y-shaped network would bring our major cities closer together and, as such, create the potential to boost investment and economic growth in the north. I would like to ask the Government how much extra capacity they anticipate high-speed rail will bring, and what estimates they have made of the modal shift from air travel that would result from the extension.
Labour remains committed to investing in a world-class rail system, and high-speed rail could have an important role to play in delivering it. That is why we began this process in government. As Members will know, Labour has just embarked on a fundamental review of all its policies, which is exactly what the Conservatives did after the Prime Minister became leader of that party. We will look at all areas of policy, and fundamental questions will be asked about how we can make transport more affordable and help to reduce inequality and increase social mobility.
Andrew Gwynne
Absolutely. As I have said, capacity on the west coast main line is of fundamental importance, and the issue must be resolved. We have to look at future capacity on rail lines and how we will deal with such issues. Clearly, everything will be on the table as part of our policy review, and we encourage as many members of the public as possible to get involved in our ongoing discussions, including those on both High Speed 2 and Rail Package 2; we need to study alternatives for viability as well. It would be unwise for any future support for high-speed rail not to be at the heart of that policy review when it involves a £30-billion commitment for future Parliaments. Perhaps the hon. Member for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) will be interested in that. In the meantime, the Government will have our support as they move forward with the next stage of planning the route.
Clearly, there is concern about the hybrid Bill that the Government propose. The Opposition have real doubts about their commitment to taking the planned high-speed rail line beyond Birmingham, as Labour had planned. They have decided not to use the forthcoming legislation to do that. As I have said in previous debates, we will support the Government if they want to put powers in the Bill to extend the line to Leeds and Manchester.
I wish to turn briefly to interoperability. If we are to proceed with high-speed rail, we need to look now at ways to integrate it with the traditional rail network. We also need to look at how we can maximise the benefits for rail all over the country, including London-based projects such as Crossrail and Thameslink. How will we plan for the wider impacts of high-speed rail, to ensure that the benefits are shared in other parts of the network? For instance, can the Minister tell us how many more fast trains to London there will be from places such as Coventry, Liverpool and Sheffield as a result of released capacity from the HS2 line? In short, what will be the benefit to areas not directly connected by high-speed rail?
Kelvin Hopkins
The fundamental problem we have on many of our rail routes is old-fashioned signalling; it is 50 years out of date, or even longer. If we can get modern signalling with some of the money that could be saved, we could get many more train paths and much faster frequencies. That is the way to increase capacity on existing routes.
Andrew Gwynne
I share my hon. Friend’s assessment of that issue. I know he made that case at a recent reception with ASLEF in the House of Commons.
I recognise that a lot of right hon. and hon. Members in all parties have concerns about high-speed rail. Those living near the proposed route have understandable concerns. I understand those hon. Members whose constituencies will be directly affected by the construction. Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), I do not know how sensible it is for the Secretary of State for Transport to refer to anyone who is against the scheme as a nimby, as he recently did in a newspaper article.
I also note that in The Daily Telegraph yesterday there was a letter signed by no fewer than eight northern Conservative MPs, saying:
“We urge the Government not to be blown off course by the protests of a minority in the home counties.”
It seems unfair to intrude on the private grief of the Conservatives, not least because there are differences in our party, too. However, the previous Labour Government were always mindful that, in proposals for a route, there has to be an attempt to minimise local impacts while achieving the wider objectives. We need to ensure that people are fully consulted about changes that will affect their area. I welcome the fact that the consultation is now under way, and will conclude in July this year. It gives those who will be directly affected by the construction route a chance to put forward their concerns and have them looked at, and I hope that their views will be taken seriously by the Government.
However, there are a number of questions that I would like to ask. What impact will the changes to the route, the additional compensation and hardship payments, and other commitments have for the £750 million allocated in this spending period? Can the Minister offer an assurance that there will not be a knock-on effect on other rail schemes already facing cuts and delays? In opposition, the Minister said:
“failing to take HSR through Heathrow would be a big mistake”.
It is reassuring that she has, I think, now confirmed a direct link in the second phase. Perhaps she can give a bit more information about that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) touched on an important point. Will the Minister confirm whether the cost of the trains to run on the high-speed line has been included in the figures used for the costs of the scheme? Or, as with other schemes such as Crossrail, are they separate expenditure, yet to be identified?
One topic almost missing from the debate, although it was rightly touched on by my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter), has been the likely cost of using the service. Surely if all taxpayers are to contribute so significantly to the cost of constructing the route, it cannot be a service with ticket prices outside the grasp of most people. What work has the Department done to look at anticipated ticket-pricing plans for high-speed rail? How much of the revenue raised by high-speed rail will be used on the high-speed rail line, and how much will be will be spent on conventional rail improvements?
To conclude, as I have said before, our policy review will be completely open-minded about all the transport priorities the country faces, and high-speed rail will clearly form an important part of our future discussion. In the meantime, we urge the Government to reconsider expanding the scope of the hybrid Bill to include powers to continue to Leeds and Manchester, so that preparations are in place to bring the potential benefits of high-speed rail to the whole country.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Walker. This has been an excellent, high-quality debate, with some great contributions from hon. Members from all parties, and I congratulate them all. I congratulate the hon. Members who secured the debate: my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom), the hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson), and my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles).
I welcome what seems to be qualified support from the shadow Minister; we are not quite sure where he is going on this matter. I reassure him that we are fully committed to taking high-speed rail to Leeds and Manchester. We were the first to champion that in opposition, and we continue to do so. In response to a number of questions, let me say that work is under way on route and station options for the route north of Birmingham. HS2 Ltd has been asked to report to the Secretary of State on those options later this year.
It is good to see my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Mr Randall), and my hon. Friends the Members for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant), and for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright), here. They have all been assiduous in pressing their concerns on Government and representing their constituents fully. Their frequent representations have been much valued by the Secretary of State and continue to have an influential impact on our thinking.
Let me turn to the points raised in debate. First, on the local environmental impact, let me make it clear that I fully recognise the concerns of those whose homes and communities could be affected by the preferred line of route. Responding to the concerns of the hon. Member for Coventry North West, we are putting a huge amount of work in to mitigate and reduce the potential impact. Approximately half the length of the preferred route to the west midlands in the plans we inherited has been changed. We have added more than a mile and half of green tunnels to maintain local access and minimise noise and visual impact.
Large sections of the routes have been lowered into deeper cuttings, reducing the number of viaducts to cut down on visual intrusion. We have made several route alterations to avoid settlements and important heritage sites. Under the revised proposals, the Chilterns will be crossed predominantly in tunnels and deep cuttings, or alongside the existing A413 transport corridor. The number of properties where high noise levels will be expected has fallen from about 350 in previous versions of the plans to around 10 properties, and we will plant 2 million trees between Birmingham and London. We will continue to listen to ideas for mitigation as part of the consultation process, at the end of which we will carefully consider all representations.
Let me turn to the points on the business case. On the criticisms made by my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire in relation to our passenger growth figures, the consultation document forecasts that passenger demand will roughly double for long-distance services on the west coast main line. That projection covers 30 years and is based on modest growth rates of just under 2% a year; that compares to a 5% growth rate between 1994 and 2009. If anything, the numbers are cautious. For example, demand between London and Manchester rose by almost 60% over the four years to 2008.
My hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher) expressed concern about the methodology in relation to other industry practices. There is widespread industry consensus, as highlighted by the both the shadow Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech), that the west coast main line will be full within around a decade; some people think sooner, some later, but there is consensus that the line is filling up fast.
My hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire also expressed the concern, in her eloquent and well-argued contribution, that our analysis does not take account of the fact that time can be used productively on a train. We have listened, and we have carried out sensitivity testing on our numbers, and the results we have had indicate that factoring in productive time would have a broadly neutral impact on the business case for HS2, because failing to deliver a new line would leave trains more and more overcrowded, making it less and less feasible to do any productive work on the trains currently on our network.
As for the allegation made by one or two hon. Members that we are proposing a rich man’s railway, and the concerns expressed about fares by the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) and the shadow Minister, our research indicates that 70% of passengers would be travelling for reasons other than business, with leisure trips particularly important. All our modelling is based on fares that are in line with existing services. Our assumptions about the expected fare-box do not factor in or depend on any premium for high-speed services.
The hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) and other hon. Members expressed concern that the project would see the rest of our railways starved of funds. There is simply no evidence to back that allegation. On the contrary, despite a crisis in the public finances as grave as any that this country has faced in its peacetime history, the coalition is investing more than £30 billion in road, rail and local transport schemes throughout Britain over the next four years, and that includes the most extensive programme of rail upgrades in modern history, to which was recently added the Ordsall Chord scheme, which was welcomed by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington.
Budgets have not been set beyond 2015, but we expect the case for investment in transport to continue to be strong in the years ahead, as evidenced by the commitments that we have made on Thameslink, Crossrail, electrification, the intercity express programme, and road improvements that stretch beyond the current spending review period.
A key element in the crux of the arguments by opponents of HS2 is the question of whether journey time savings delivered by high-speed rail will be worth the cost of building the new line. The Government’s proposals, as hon. Members have pointed out this afternoon, are about more than just speed. One of the biggest advantages of our plans is that a new line would release additional capacity on our existing railways, benefiting places such as Coventry and Milton Keynes, as my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) pointed out. That would help to address crowding problems for long-distance passengers, and provide more space for commuter services and the freight services that the hon. Member for Luton North championed so well, and it would also improve network resilience and reliability.
Mr Ainsworth
I recognise what the Minister says about Coventry. The city is split, and the council is opposed, as is my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson), but I cannot understand how it would be damaged by being only eight miles to the east of what would be the country’s major transport spine. The benefits are clear for anyone who wants to see them.
Mrs Villiers
The right hon. Gentleman puts the case very well. Coventry stands to benefit hugely from the plans under consideration this afternoon. Journey time savings matter. For example, the Y network would enable people living in Manchester and Leeds to get to Canary Wharf in roughly one hour and 40 minutes, and Heathrow in 75 minutes or less. I assure the shadow Minister that the plans for phase 2 include the direct link to Heathrow that we called for in opposition.
I believe that bringing the capital within 49 minutes of Birmingham and 80 minutes of Manchester and Leeds would spread the massive benefits of London’s global pull. It would do more to bridge the north-south divide than virtually all previous efforts to address a problem that has defied solution for decades, which is probably one reason why so many people north of Birmingham support the project so strongly.
Mr Robinson
The Minister spoke about regional benefits, and we increasingly see the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister emphasising in person the north-south divide. First, how does she explain the fact that of the jobs created—about 30,000—seven in 10 will be in London, not the regions? Secondly, does she really believe that £600,000 a job is good regional investment policy?
Mrs Villiers
The project will create jobs throughout the country. The suggestion that all the cities that are calling for high-speed rail will see their economic growth sucked away by London just does not hold water. Look around Europe, where cities such as Lille and Lyons have been transformed. In Europe and Asia, cities are fighting hard to be on the high-speed rail networks that other countries have the courage and determination to deliver.
Andrea Leadsom
Does my right hon. Friend accept that unemployment in Lille rose after high-speed rail went there?
Mrs Villiers
What I know is that Lille’s prospects were transformed by high-speed rail, and its unemployment level fell to much closer to the French average. If people in Lille were asked whether high-speed rail was bad for them, or whether they would like it to be shut down, I suspect that they would say no.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) said, shrinking journeys between cities in the north will have a hugely beneficial impact, enabling them increasingly to merge into a single economic area. I emphasise that with its potential to regenerate regional economies, create thousands of jobs, and boost our national economy by about £44 billion, the project is about much more than shaving half an hour off the journey time to Birmingham.
That brings me to the next allegation—that the project is not affordable. In practice, most of the spending will not kick in for at least five years, so it is not competing directly with other priorities in the current period of austerity. Spending will then be phased in over the period of construction, which we all know is, sadly, a long one. The annual average cost will not be out of line with projects such as Crossrail, as my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale pointed out. The figures in the consultation document also make no allowance for possible private sector contributions, which could be considerable, as hon. Members have pointed out, particularly in relation to the expected benefits of station redevelopment.
Perhaps most important is that delivering a major uplift in inter-urban transport capacity is not some nice-to-have luxury. It is absolutely essential if we are to prevent a capacity crisis on the west coast line and other key transport corridors in the years to come. No Government can afford to sit back, ignore the problem, and pretend that it does not exist.
Despite the valiant efforts of my hon. Friends the Members for South Northamptonshire, and for North Warwickshire, and the hon. Member for Coventry North West, the opponents of HS2 have not made a convincing case that there is a better way of dealing with the expected growth in demand for inter-city travel. My hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) suggested that information technology will provide the answer. I certainly hope that future advances in technology will make video-conferencing an alternative to more journeys, but I am afraid that after in-depth research, the Committee on Climate Change concluded that the net impact of such technology on travel is likely to be minimal, and I am afraid that improvements to the existing network just cannot provide the capacity that HS2 would. The Government are already committed to delivering a 30% uplift in capacity on the west coast line, with new carriages being introduced from April 2012, but that will simply not be enough to meet the demand for inter-city travel in the decades to come.
In response to the shadow Minister’s question about the capacity to deliver, HS2 would deliver 14 trains an hour, each of which would have about 1,100 seats. RP2 simply will not meet the future needs of this country’s transport system. The practical realities of further work on the existing line have a serious downside. As the right hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth) said, passengers were subjected to a decade of disruption with the improvements to the west coast line, which have just been completed.
For the information of my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire, the work required at Euston for RP2 would be considerably more disruptive than those required there for HS2, because they would have to be carried out within Euston’s current footprint, making it much more difficult to keep current services going. Disruption would be much worse this time, because the west coast line is twice as busy as it was seven years ago.
The most viable journey time savings that could be achieved using the existing line would involve cutting out intermediate stops, which we all know would be deeply upsetting for the affected communities. Moreover, line upgrades cannot deliver any released capacity benefits, and squeezing even more into the current timetable to allow more intense use of the line would compromise resilience, and is virtually guaranteed to lead to a serious deterioration in reliability. In contrast, infrastructure-related delays on HS1 average just 6.8 seconds. The simple truth is that whatever is done to the existing line, it could never match the economic benefits of faster journey times, capacity uplift, and regeneration that HS2 would deliver.
The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) called for leadership in delivering the project, and we intend to provide that. He asked whether appropriate rolling-stock designs were available. Our research and analysis is based on rolling stock that is already in use in the many countries that have embarked on high-speed rail. My hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale pointed out that the high-speed rail link is a manifesto promise, and it is one that we intend to keep. My hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth expressed concern about the current status of compensation, and I assure him that the exceptional hardship scheme is already in operation.
Lastly, I will address the allegation that high-speed rail is not green and offers no environmental benefits. Our analysis shows that the shift from road and aviation that would come with delivering the west midlands section of the line would broadly offset any increase in carbon emissions from the new line, despite the significant increase in passenger journeys that it would accommodate. We would get a major economic boost without increasing carbon emissions, which is just the sort of sustainable growth most people in the country say we should have. The modal shift resulting from the Y-shaped network to the north of England would be greater still, with as many as 6 million journeys by air and 9 million by road expected to migrate to rail. The carbon benefits of rail over aviation are set to grow as we make progress on decarbonising the electricity supply.
The consultation under way is one of the most wide-ranging ever undertaken. We will listen to and consider all responses with care, including those that will help us further mitigate potential local impact, which I know hon. Members are concerned about. I genuinely believe that with care, effort and high-quality engineering, we can address the worst local impacts and provide much-needed reassurance to the constituents of hon. Members who have taken part in the debate. Similar things were done for HS1.
Today, we still rely almost entirely on railways built by the Victorians, and I think it is time we started catching up with the high-speed rail revolution on which our European partners embarked more than a generation ago. I believe that we can—and should—aspire to the sort of high-quality long-distance travel network that other countries take for granted. Our high-speed rail plans provide a once-in-a-generation chance to address the transport capacity needs of our economy in the future, transform our economic geography, and generate a boost for jobs and growth worth billions of pounds. We know that it will not be an easy process, but we should not let this opportunity slip through our fingers. I have welcomed the opportunity to set some of our plans before the House this afternoon.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Ministerial Statements
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Pre-packaged Sales in Administrations
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)
Everyone who is affected by insolvency is entitled to have confidence that insolvency procedures are used fairly and that insolvency practitioners deliver the best possible outcome in what are often difficult and challenging circumstances. It is particularly important that suppliers, who often extend credit on unsecured terms, have confidence in the insolvency regime, as a lack of confidence is likely to restrict the availability of credit.
I am today announcing measures to improve transparency and confidence in pre-packaged (pre-pack) sales in administration. These will help ensure that in these cases as much is fairly returned to creditors as possible. These measures are in line with the policies of this Government to drive balanced and sustainable growth and will provide real benefits to business.
The merits of pre-pack sales have continued to be the subject of much debate. In response to the concerns raised, the previous Government launched a consultation exercise in March 2010. The responses make it clear that the greatest cause for concern is where the business and assets are sold back to the current management or a connected party—something that is often referred to as “phoenixism”.
I recognise that pre-pack sales offer a flexible and speedy means of rescue and can be the best way of maximising returns for creditors. I do not wish to outlaw them. But they must be done fairly and reasonably. Where such sales are at undervalue, creditors get less than they should. Competitors who pay their debts in full also suffer. I want to make sure that creditors have a fair chance to have their voice heard. I also want to enable others to scrutinise such transactions after the event to ensure that deals being struck are fair in the circumstances.
In order to inject greater transparency into the process I intend to require administrators to give notice to creditors where they propose to sell a significant proportion of the assets of a company or its business to a connected party, in circumstances where there has been no open marketing of the assets. This will enable creditors to express concerns, which the administrator would need to consider, or to make a higher offer for the assets, and in cases where the circumstances justify it, apply to the court for injunctive relief. These options can be exercised before the sale has taken place, and therefore reflect concerns raised by stakeholders in their responses to the consultation.
The new requirements will apply not just to pre-packs but to any sales back to connected parties in an administration where there has been no open marketing of the assets.
Administrators already need to provide a detailed explanation of why a pre-pack sale was undertaken to creditors in compliance with professional standard Statement Of Insolvency Practice 16. These will in future need to be included in their administration proposals which are lodged at Companies House, making the information available to business as a whole, including, for example, credit reference agencies. This information may be of particular interest to suppliers and others considering doing business with the purchasing company. Administrators will also need to confirm that the sale price represents, in their view, best value for the creditors.
We are today also publishing a report on compliance with the Statement Of Insolvency Practice 16 (a professional standard setting out what information must be disclosed to creditors in pre-packs) during 2010. Overall levels of compliance have increased, showing that in the great majority of cases necessary statements are now being given (after the event) to creditors. However in a minority of cases the information is insufficient, and in these cases the concerns have been reported to the relevant authorising body. My officials will be liaising with the various bodies to ensure that there is a consistent approach taken to lack of compliance.
A copy of the consultation and summary of responses, together with the report on compliance with the Statement Of Insolvency Practice 16, can be found on The Insolvency Service’s website at www.insolvency.gov.uk.
Local Enterprise Partnerships
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)
The Minister of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), the Minister responsible for decentralisation, and I would like to inform the House that today we have written to the proposed Heart of the South-West local enterprise partnerships, covering Devon, Somerset, Plymouth and Torbay, inviting them to put their governance arrangements in place.
Local enterprise partnerships see a real power shift away from central Government and quangos and towards local communities and the local businesses who really understand the barriers to growth in their areas. This announcement brings the total number of partnerships so far invited to put their governance arrangements in place to 32. We will continue to work with other areas with a view to establishing further local enterprise partnerships across England.
Tax Consultation Framework and Updated Consultation Tracker
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
Since the June Budget 2010 the Government have been developing a new approach to tax policy making, with consultation on policy and scrutiny of legislation as the cornerstones.
On 9 December 2010 the Tax Consultation Framework was published in draft for comment. Today the Government are publishing their response to the comments received including the finalised framework showing amendments made to the draft version.
Respondents have generally welcomed the framework as a positive step towards achieving the Government’s aims of predictability, stability and simplicity for the tax system. Many of the suggestions have been incorporated into the finalised framework, while others will be addressed through the guidance and training provided to policy officials.
Responding to feedback from interested parties the Government are also publishing today their updated tax consultation tracker which is available on the HM Treasury website at: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/tax_updates.htm.
The new version of the tracker includes specific anticipated launch dates wherever possible, to help representative groups and others manage their engagement with the Government on tax policy development.
Government Profit Formula
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Peter Luff)
I announced to the House on 26 January 2011 that I had asked my noble Friend Lord Currie of Marylebone to undertake a fundamental review of the Government’s single source pricing regulations, which include the Government Profit Formula (GPF) overseen by the review board for Government contracts. In the announcement I said that the review board has been asked to maintain the existing arrangements pending the outcome of Lord Currie’s review (which is due to report in July 2011), and to complete their 2011 annual review of the GPF.
The Government have subsequently considered and accepted the review board’s recommendations in their 2011 annual review, and all changes have been agreed with industry. This will reduce the profit and capital servicing allowances payable by the Ministry of Defence (MOD) on new single source work that is placed after 1 April 2011. An agreed change to the GPF methodology will be of benefit to small and medium-sized enterprises; and agreed changes to Government accounting conventions setting out the treatment of costs in single source pricing will improve the MOD’s negotiating position. The board’s recommendations will be implemented in accordance with arrangements subsequently agreed with the industry side and recorded in an addendum to the published report. I will be placing a copy of the report in the Library of the House. The recommendations will be implemented for new single source work with effect from 1 April 2011.
Service Complaints Commissioner's Report
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
I am pleased to lay before Parliament today the service complaints commissioner’s third annual report on the fairness, effectiveness and efficiency of the service complaints system.
The commissioner continues to provide an independent oversight of the system and has been effective in beginning to drive improvements in the way in which we handle service complaints. She has added value and challenged the services’ established ways of working.
The Ministry of Defence and the services have worked closely with the commissioner over the last three years to take practical steps to implement her recommendations for improving further the service complaints process. I and the service chiefs welcome the fact that this report acknowledges the progress that has been made, and the initiatives that have been implemented in a number of the areas since the first report was published in 2009.
While progress has been made, we recognise that we can improve further the manner in which we handle complaints.
I will provide a formal response to the commissioner once I and the services have had time to consider in full the findings of the report and the recommendations made.
UK Gulf Veterans (Mortality Data)
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
Today we have published the most recent figures on the mortality of veterans of the 1990-91 Gulf conflict, covering the period 1 April 1991 to 31 December 2010. These figures have been published as a national statistic notice on the Defence Analytical Services and Advice website.
The data for Gulf veterans are compared to that of a control group known as the “Era cohort” consisting of armed forces personnel of a similar profile in terms of age, gender, service, regular/reservists status and rank, who were in service on 1 January 1991 but were not deployed to the Gulf. As in the previous release, the “Era” group has been adjusted for a small difference in the age-profile of those aged 40 years and over, to ensure appropriate comparisons.
Key points to note in the data are:
There have been 1,193 deaths among the Gulf veterans and 1,216 in the age-adjusted Era comparison group.
The 1,193 deaths among Gulf veterans compare with approximately 1,998 deaths which would have been expected in a similar sized cohort taken from the general population of the UK with the same age and gender profile. This reflects the strong emphasis on fitness when recruiting and retaining service personnel.
These statistics continue to confirm that UK veterans of the 1990-91 Gulf conflict do not suffer an excess of overall mortality compared with service personnel that did not deploy.
The full notice can be viewed at the following address: http://www.dasa.mod.uk/applications/newWeb/www/index.php?page=66&pubType=1
A copy has been placed in the Library of the House.
Service Voting (Afghanistan)
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)
The Government have put in place an initiative to support the participation of members of the armed forces serving in Afghanistan who wish to vote in the referendum and elections on 5 May.
Following a dedicated registration push for those facing the most difficult of circumstances while serving in Afghanistan, service personnel will be able to use either a proxy or postal vote to take part in the polls.
Special forms produced by the Electoral Commission have been provided to relevant units, both for those going out to Afghanistan and those already there, to fill out to register to vote, and to choose how they wish to vote. The Ministry of Defence is undertaking targeted activity to encourage soldiers to register to vote before they leave the UK and each person arriving in Afghanistan will be briefed on the initiative.
Troops who fill out the forms and request a postal vote will be sent ballot forms via the British Forces Post Office (BFPO), utilising existing supply routes.
Once completed by the service voters, the ballot papers will be returned to the UK and distributed to returning officers using a network of BFPO, Royal Mail and local authority support put in place for the initiative.
Alongside this, counting officers and returning officers have been asked to prioritise the production of all postal ballot packs that are to be sent overseas. Those heading for BFPO addresses will be treated as a priority by BFPO to facilitate service personnel participation in the polls more widely.
This initiative builds on that put in place for the general election in 2010. It is right that we make it as easy as possible for our service personnel on operations in Afghanistan to take part in the referendum and elections on 5 May.
Departmental Expenditure Limits (Changes 2010-11)
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne)
I am announcing the following DEL budget switches, in accordance with the Treasury’s consolidated budgeting guidance. Resource DEL will be decreased by £64,000,000 from £1,290,579,000 to £1,226,579,000 and Capital DEL will be increased by £64,000,000 from £1,987,933,000 to £2,051,933,000. The impact of these non-voted DEL switches on the Resource and Capital DEL is as set out in the following table:
Voted | Non-Voted | Non-Voted | Total | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Resource DEL | -20,000 | -44,000 | 434,820 | 791,759 | 1,226,579 |
Of which: | |||||
Administration Budget | - | - | 117,939 | - | 117,939 |
Capital DEL* | 20,000 | 44,000 | 744,751 | 1,307,182 | 2,051,933 |
Less Depreciation** | - | - | -7,516 | -4,389 | -11,905 |
Total DEL | - | - | 1,172,055 | 2,094,552 | 3,266,607 |
*Capital DEL includes items treated as resource in estimates and accounts but which are treated as Capital DEL in budgets. **Depreciation, which forms part of Resource DEL, is excluded from the total DEL in the table above, since Capital DEL includes capital spending and to include depreciation of those assets would lead to double counting. |
The transfer from voted Resource DEL to Capital DEL of £20,000,000 relates to the cost of keeping open the Warm Front scheme for two weeks longer than budgeted during a period of extreme bad weather.
The transfer from non-voted Resource DEL to Capital DEL of £44,000,000 is in respect of work by the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority at the Sellafield site, as a result of a final assessment of the split of the cost of decommissioning activities on the site between capital and resource expenditure in accordance with the ONS/ESA95 agreed definitions.
Bovine TB Reactor Identification
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)
I wish to inform the House that I have received evidence suggesting that a very small minority of farmers in the south-west and midlands have been illegally swapping cattle eartags to retain TB test-positive animals in their herds and sending other less productive animals to slaughter in their place. The suspected fraudulent activity is now subject to formal investigations.
If this kind of practice is taking place it is totally unacceptable. We are taking immediate action to prevent activity of this kind happening in future, and any farmer who tries to cheat the system should know that they will be identified and prosecuted. I should stress that the health risks to consumers from this suspected fraud are very low.
Anyone who retains TB test-positive cattle increases the risk of disease spread within their herd, to their neighbours’ herds, and to wildlife. We are moving quickly to introduce new measures to prevent this occurring in future.
In particular, from mid-April DNA tags will be applied immediately to cattle that test positive for TB. This quick action is only possible because of the commitment and support of the veterinary profession, for which I am grateful. Animal Health will then cross-check on a random sample basis and, where there is any suspicion of eartag tampering, the DNA of TB test-positive animals against the DNA of animals sent to slaughter.
I would emphasise that the vast majority of cattle farmers fully comply with TB control measures, but their considerable and tireless efforts to help us control this terrible disease risk being undermined by an irresponsible minority. I am confident that our quick and decisive action, including the DNA tagging of TB reactors, will help protect the interests of all cattle farmers.
Departmental Expenditure Limit (Budget Control Totals)
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman)
I wish to announce that for 2010-11 DEFRA will switch £9 million available Resource DEL budget to cover a forecast deficit against its Capital DEL control total, in accordance with HM Treasury’s consolidated budgetary guidance. Although the financial outturn for the year is not final, the current assessment of the required switch is £9 million. The movement in spend from Resource DEL to Capital DEL is in respect of flood defences where the exact nature and classification of the expenditure is determined by the Environment Agency, as they undertake the work.
Change | New DEL | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Voted | Non-Voted | Voted | Non-Voted | Total | |
Resource DEL | - | -9,000 | 3,695,767 | - - | 2,423,816 |
1,271,951 | |||||
Of which: | |||||
Administration Budget | - | - | 282,088 | - | 282,088 |
Capital DEL* | - | 9,000 | 122,977 | 463,887 | 586,864 |
Less Depreciation** | - | - | -100,441 | -109,235 | -209,676 |
Total DEL | - | - | 3,718,303 | -917,299 | 2,801,004 |
*Capital DEL includes items treated as resource in estimates and accounts but which are treated as Capital DEL in budgets. **Depreciation, which forms part of Resource DEL, is excluded from the total DEL, since Capital DEL includes capital spending and to include depreciation of those assets would lead to double counting. |
Single Payment Scheme
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)
In my statement of 4 March, Official Report, column 47-48WS, I updated the House on the Rural Payments Agency’s (RPA) progress in both addressing its daunting legacy of errors in relation to the single payment scheme (SPS) and ensuring that accurate payments under the SPS 2010 reached farmers as soon as possible. In that statement I explained I was considering additional measures to speed the flow of SPS 2010 payments and, following discussions in the RPA oversight board, I can now report on the decisions that have been reached.
Since 4 March, RPA has continued to make SPS 2010 payments as claims are validated, and to undertake further work to identify those that are ineligible and not, therefore, due a payment for this year. As a result, the agency calculates that there are now in the region of 6,300 eligible claims remaining to be paid, with a combined value of around £215 million. The frustrations felt by these farmers have been made very clear to me, both directly and through farmers’ representative bodies. They want both the remaining sums paid as soon as possible and a line to be drawn under the legacy issues so uncertainty over past years is removed and greater confidence is provided that subsequent scheme year payments will not be affected. The oversight board shares these aims and has been looking very closely at how the former can be achieved without significantly impacting on the latter.
Against that background, the oversight board has now approved two decisions which, between them, should ensure that less than 1% of the monetary value of SPS 2010 payments remains outstanding at the end of the regulatory payment window which closes on the 30 June. This would be in line with, or would better, performance in previous years and would ensure the EU requirement to make 95.238% of payments by 30 June is met, thus avoiding late payment penalties.
The first decision is that, after rigorous testing on a sample to ensure accuracy of the process, fully validated manual payments will be made to approximately 2,000 farmers under the 2010 scheme who would otherwise not be paid until after the payment window. These payments will be made over the next two months and take account of known entitlement corrections that have yet to be fully processed on the agency’s systems. Should there be any additional changes identified once payment has been made, the farmers concerned will be informed.
The second decision relates to those remaining SPS 2010 payments where there are outstanding queries on earlier scheme years. Where the SPS 2010 claim has been fully validated, payment for that scheme year will now be made. Should any changes be identified for earlier scheme year payments in due course, the farmers concerned will be informed. RPA plans to complete the work required before the opening of the SPS 2011 payment window on 1 December.
The net result of these decisions is that the flow of remaining SPS 2010 payments will now increase. The oversight board did additionally consider requests from various sectors of the industry to make partial payments. However, RPA’s analysis suggests that this would not significantly increase the speed at which remaining claims are paid to farmers, but would add disproportionately to the backlog of corrective work required and introduce additional risks of EU fines. Consequently, it was agreed that the agency should not make partial payments.
In order that all farmers with payments outstanding at the end of March understand how these decisions might affect them, RPA will be writing to each of those concerned next week to explain what issues remain on their claims and the likely month of payment.
Alongside this work, RPA will continue to review the remaining backlog of potential error cases that need to be reviewed. Corrective work undertaken to date, combined with earlier decisions by the oversight board on ensuring entitlements were regularised wherever legally possible, has made a real impact to date. The board will be monitoring these efforts closely to ensure a line is finally drawn under all the legacy data issues over the coming year.
I will continue to keep the House informed on the agency’s progress.
“Human Rights and Democracy: The 2010 Foreign and Commonwealth Office Report”
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
“Human Rights and Democracy: The 2010 Foreign and Commonwealth Office Report” will be published today. The report covers the period from 1 January to 31 December 2010, although some key events in early 2011 have also been included. It highlights what the Government are doing to promote our values around the world, the serious concerns we have, and the important human rights progress being made.
The report was laid before Parliament on 30 March. Copies are available in the Vote Office and Printed Paper Office in the House of Lords. The report will be available online at: www.fco.gov.uk/hrdreport. I commend the report to the House.
Civil Partnerships (Religious Premises)
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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The Minister for Equalities (Lynne Featherstone)
The Government are committed to advancing equality for lesbian, gay and bisexual (LGB) people and to ensuring freedom of religion or belief for all people. To further both of these aims, the Government are committed to removing the legal barrier to civil partnerships being registered on the religious premises of those faith groups who choose to allow this to happen. This will be done by implementing section 202 of the Equality Act 2010. This is a permissive measure; section 202 makes it clear that there will be no obligation on faith groups to host civil partnerships.
Today we are publishing a consultation document setting out proposals to implement section 202. The proposals set out in the consultation document are designed to respect the wishes of faith groups whether they wish to host civil partnership registrations or not, and to keep burdens on local authorities to a minimum. To this end we are proposing a two-stage process. First, faith groups must agree whether to permit civil partnership registrations on their premises to enable individual religious premises to apply to host them. Secondly, individual religious premises must obtain approval from the local authority for their area by following a process similar to that for venues such as hotels where civil marriages and partnership registrations are held now. The consultation will run until 23 June.
This consultation document deals only with this specific measure and does not set out proposals for any other changes to civil partnerships or any changes to marriage. However, in our work on civil partnerships we have identified a desire from many to move towards equal civil marriage and partnerships, and will be consulting separately on how legislation can develop, working with all those who have an interest in this area.
Copies of the consultation document are being placed in the House Library and will also be available from the Vote Office.
Remuneration and Conditions of Service for Police Officers and Staff
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
On 8 March I issued a written statement to the House—Official Report, column 59WS—announcing that Tom Winsor had published the first report of his review of remuneration and conditions of service for police officers and staff in England and Wales.
We have the best police force in the world, but I said when the review was launched, it is vital that we have a modern and flexible service to meet the demands placed on it. The Government recognise and value the professionalism of the police and have made clear their commitment to supporting and maximising front line services to the public. Police officers and staff should be rewarded fairly and reasonably for what they do. They deserve to have pay and work force arrangements that both recognise the vital role they play in fighting crime and keeping the public safe and enable them to deliver effectively for the public.
The Government have also been clear that action is needed to tackle the deficit responsibly to ensure that the taxpayer gets a fair deal from all parts of the public sector. The police service has its part to play, and in an organisation like the police, where pay is 80% of police revenue expenditure, there is no question that pay restraint and pay reform must form part of the package. In this context, it is more important than ever that the police leadership has the flexibility to manage forces and protect the front line services.
The review has an important role in enabling the police service to do this. Tom Winsor was asked to look at how remuneration arrangements and conditions of service for police officers and staff can best support and enable the police service to serve the public and provide value for money for the public taxpayer.
In particular, the terms of reference asked for recommendations on how to:
use remuneration and conditions of service to maximise officer and staff deployment to front line roles where their powers and skills are required;
provide remuneration and conditions of service that are fair to and reasonable for both the public taxpayer and police officers and staff;
enable modern management practices in line with practices elsewhere in the public sector and the wider economy.
In recognition of the urgency of these matters, the review was asked to report in two stages: the first on short-term improvements and a second report on longer-term reforms.
The Government have now had the opportunity to consider the review’s first report. It sets out the following broad principles:
Fairness is an essential part of any new system of pay and conditions.
The Office of Constable is the bedrock of British policing.
The demands of policing should be given full and proper weight.
People should be paid for what they do, the skills they have and are applying in their work, and the weights of the jobs they do.
People should be paid for how well they work.
A single police service—distinctions in pay and other conditions of service between police officers and staff should be objectively justified.
Arrangements should be simple to implement and administer.
Phased introduction of reform.
We welcome these principles, and believe that they provide a framework for fair and sustainable arrangements for remuneration and conditions of service.
The review also sets out a package of specific recommendations for police officers’ and staff remuneration and conditions of service, based on these guiding principles. I have consulted the Independent Chair of the Police Negotiating Board and Police Advisory Board for England and Wales and I will direct those bodies to consider the proposals that are within their respective remits for police officers in England and Wales as a matter of urgency. I will also be writing to the Association of Police Authorities and the Police Staff Council to recommend that they consider the report’s recommendations in respect of police staff in England and Wales.
Changes in Immigration Rules
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green)
My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is today laying before the House a statement of changes in the immigration rules that will bring about the first of the changes to the student visa system, which I announced on 22 March.
The changes will take effect on 21 April and will introduce an interim limit on those sponsors who do not currently meet the new accreditation criteria and will limit the number of students they can sponsor. These rule changes also implement the changes to the English language requirement so that those coming to study at degree level will have to speak English at an upper-intermediate level. Others will have to speak English at an intermediate level. We are also publishing a statement of intent on the UK Border Agency website which sets out the detail of the proposed policy changes to tier 4 and I will arrange for a copy to be placed in the House Library.
This statement of changes also includes some changes to the tier 4 rules to clarify some existing rules and to bring some requirements into the rules.
We are also making some minor amendments to rules laid on 16 March, relating to prospective entrepreneurs and tier 2 intra-company transfers. We are also correcting omissions from the new criminality requirements at settlement and to clarify the application of the new settlement rules for highly skilled migrant programme participants.
Her Majesty's Courts and Tribunals Service
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Jonathan Djanogly)
I am announcing today the launch of Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service as an executive agency of the Ministry of Justice. It brings together Her Majesty’s Courts Service and the Tribunals Service into one integrated agency providing support to the judiciary in the administration of justice in courts and tribunals.
The agency is responsible for the administration of the criminal, civil and family courts and tribunals in England and Wales and non-devolved tribunals in Scotland and Northern Ireland. It provides for a fair, efficient and effective justice system delivered by an independent judiciary.
I believe that operating as a single organisation will provide the platform to improve accessibility, drive up quality and provide a better environment for service users. Integration will enable those who need to use the agency’s services to do so in a simple and straightforward way, using a single point of access. Bringing corporate functions together will remove duplication in management functions and enable efficiencies which do not impact on front line services. Integration will also enable more efficient use of the combined estate, using facilities flexibly across jurisdictions.
Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service uniquely operates on the basis of a partnership between the Lord Chancellor, the Lord Chief Justice and the Senior President of Tribunals as set out in Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Framework Document. I have laid this document before Parliament today.
Dissolution of the Independent Monitoring Commission and Independent International Commission on Decommissioning
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Paterson)
We have previously announced that the work of the Independent Monitoring Commission (IMC) and Independent International Commission on Decommissioning (IICD) has been nearing completion. We have agreed with the IMC and IICD that the time is now right to bring the commissions to a close and the necessary arrangements have been put in place to wind down both commissions. They will be dissolved on 31 March.
As requested by the UK and Irish Governments, the IMC and IICD have provided both Governments with reports on each commission’s experience and lessons learned. Due to the pre-election period, the reports will be published after the Assembly elections in May on a date to be agreed by both Governments.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank the IMC and IICD commissioners and commission staff who have played a crucial part in supporting and enabling historic changes over the years, assisting in Northern Ireland’s transition to a peaceful, stable and inclusive society.
Social Fund Allocations
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)
I am pleased to announce that the gross discretionary Social Fund Budget for 2011-12 will be £732 million.
With the net funding available, I have been able to allocate a gross national Social Fund Loans Budget of £590 million and a national Community Care Grants Budget of £141 million from l April 2011.
To provide help to Jobcentre Plus budgets facing unexpected and unplanned expenditure I will retain centrally £1 million as a contingency reserve.
I will allocate a gross national Social Fund Loans Budget in line with the provisions in the Welfare Reform Act 2007. The aim is to control and manage the national allocation whilst providing consistency of outcomes for budgeting loan applicants wherever they live. All loans budget expenditure will be made from the gross national loans budget of £590 million.
The Community Care Grant annual allocations to social fund budget areas are provisional and will be subject to in year adjustment once the current review of the funding allocation methodology has been completed. The overall national budget will remain at £141 million. The purpose of the review is to determine a fairer distribution of resources between areas and to move to the optimal funding position for the new locally based service from 2013.
Details of individual Community Care Grant allocations will be placed in the House Libraries.
Background note about the discretionary Social Fund Budget
The discretionary social fund budget is cash limited. Funding for Community Care Grants is allocated to each budget area for management by Jobcentre Plus Social Fund Benefit Delivery Centres on 1 April each year. The gross discretionary social fund budget allocated for 2011-12 is £732 million. This is made up of:
New money (net AME) | £178.2m |
Forecast loan recovery | £553.8m |
This is to be allocated as follows:
Loans | £ 590m |
Grants | £141m |
Contingency reserve | 1m |
House of Lords
Olympic Games 2012: Olympic Truce
Lord Bates
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what specific initiatives they are planning to implement the Olympic Truce for the 2012 London Olympic and Paralympic Games.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, the UK will be promoting a fresh resolution calling for the continued observance of the Olympic Truce for the 2012 Games and is currently working with overseas partners in 15 countries and planning activity in a further three on International Inspiration, a sports programme targeted at countries in development. Other initiatives are being considered by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and we expect to learn the results of this work shortly. The London Organising Committee of the Olympic and Paralympic Games is also undertaking truce-related programmes.
Lord Bates
I thank my noble friend for that Answer and for the encouraging progress that has been made. Can she confirm that this Olympic Truce resolution is a resolution of the General Assembly of the UN, which quite specifically calls on all signatories to pursue initiatives for peace and reconciliation in the spirit of the ancient Games during the London 2012 Games? This year, the resolution will be not only signed but proposed by the United Kingdom Government. Does she agree that it therefore presents a unique opportunity to hand on a legacy from the London 2012 Olympic Games not only in medals won and land reclaimed but in the lives changed and saved and in the health and humanitarian aid extended?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I thank my noble friend and of course I agree with what he says. He is tireless in his work to achieve successful outcomes for 2012 through the Olympic Truce, which indeed presents a unique opportunity for the UK to lead on proposals for the sort of peace and reconciliation that he suggests. In previous years, these truce agreement proposals have not resulted too often in major outcomes, but that will not prevent us from trying again this year. It will, of course, be for the United Nations to agree policy actions.
Baroness Billingham
My Lords, we must congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Bates, on his tenacity; I think that this is the third or fourth time that we have debated this and we are all becoming much more familiar with it. It is encouraging to hear today a significant change in the Minister’s reply. In the past, however charmingly she has replied, all that she has sent the noble Lord has been a “Dear John”, but maybe things are now changing. Having watched the cricket yesterday, do we not remind ourselves of the potency of sport for peaceful objectives? Having seen Pakistan and India sitting side by side and embracing each other, I wish his project well. I hope that the Minister will continue to use that as an example of sport and peace and the ways in which they can go together.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I thank the noble Baroness for her kind words in among that. I am not quite sure where the question was, but if it was whether we agree that sport is an excellent forum for international co-operation, the answer is yes, indeed we do. The Government have some major programmes to encourage sport among young people as well as to support our major adult sporting events.
Lord Higgins
My Lords, does the noble Baroness accept that some of the finest athletes in the world, particularly long-distance runners, come from areas that are now troubled by war in one form or another? The idea of the truce was that people in those circumstances could get to the Games. Does she accept that we should do everything possible to ensure that good athletes can do so? Will she also recognise that few athletes remain at the top for more than four years and that if they are prevented from attending they have therefore lost a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity? Not only are they disappointed, but so are the people who hoped to beat them.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My noble friend speaks from his own experience as an Olympic athlete and of course I agree with what he says. We in the UK will do what is in our power to encourage people from disadvantaged countries to attend and compete in the Games. A great deal of that depends on the response from those individual countries as well but, as I have said, that will not stop us trying.
Lord Low of Dalston
My Lords, what success are the Government having in brokering a truce between the noble Lords, Lord Coe and Lord Moynihan?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
The noble Lord raises an issue that has been in the news just recently. The two organisations that the noble Lords represent normally work closely together for the good of the outcomes of the Olympic Games and I have no doubt that, in the greater interests of delivering a highly successful 2012 Olympic Games, any disputes will soon be resolved.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it would be in the interests of peace and reconciliation if the directors of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club were to abandon their extraordinary attempt to go to judicial review over the legacy issue of the stadium?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, Tottenham Hotspur’s decision is probably slightly wide of the Olympic Truce, but I note what the noble Lord says.
Lord Addington
Would it not be good if the idea of a truce were extended by this Government and indeed all our allies to all the major sporting gatherings—world cups, championships and so on—so that those taking part paid some attention to international activity outside? That would be a real legacy to take away and it would not be confined to an event that takes place once every four years.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I entirely agree with my noble friend. Sporting activities of any sort provide opportunities for co-operation internationally. We recognise that there is a high degree of competition between countries, but that does not alter the fact that there is tremendous camaraderie between sportsmen and sportswomen in any one sport. For them to get to know and befriend their counterparts in other countries can only be to the good in building international relations.
Baroness Heyhoe Flint
My Lords, does my noble friend feel able to mirror the Spirit of Cricket campaign that the MCC has promoted in furthering cricketing causes in Afghanistan, which was promoted originally by my dear late friend Lord Cowdrey?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My noble friend raises an important point. Once again, the use of the Olympic Truce for these sorts of developments has to go through the United Nations, but inevitably we are hoping to build up programmes with other countries. I mentioned the International Inspiration programme, which aims to bring the benefits of sport to 12 million children in 20 countries. We are trying to expand that; it is an ambitious programme but it might be a feasible one.
Trade Unions: Ballots
Lord Lea of Crondall
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to remove the threshold of 40 per cent of the electorate having to vote “yes” in ballots on trade union recognition in order to secure a positive result in addition to a simple majority.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, the Government have no plans to change the statutory procedure for the recognition of trade unions.
Lord Lea of Crondall
I thank the noble Lord for confirming this double standard. There is a high hurdle—a double hurdle, in fact—for trade unions to jump, but in the Government’s proposals for a radical change to the constitution there is no such double hurdle at all, simply a vote of 17 per cent to 13 per cent or whatever. I have two questions for the Minister. First, given that on 16 February the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, opposed the Rooker amendment on the ground that it would be a deterrent to people turning out because they might not know whether their votes would count, are workers not deterred as well? Secondly, if on 5 May the turnout is 37 per cent, will the Government repeat Mr Clegg’s comment on the Barnsley by-election that 37 per cent was “an abysmally low turnout”, or—surprise, surprise—will they say, “That was astonishingly high”, and that 25 per cent or something like that is a perfectly good basis on which to change our constitution?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, the two cases are completely different and there is no reason why the balloting arrangements should be the same. The voting constituencies in union recognition ballots, averaging a few hundred, are tiny compared to those of referendums. The workforce concerned is often co-located and can be easily accessed. It is therefore much easier in this case to ensure a large turnout, provided that the workers are genuinely interested in union recognition.
Lord Razzall
My Lords, I am sure that the Minister will find it ironic that the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, should at the same time be advocating the removal of the threshold in trade union recognition ballots and the introduction of a threshold in the AV referendum. I find that absolutely extraordinary and no doubt the Minister does as well.
Lord Peston
My Lords, I do not think that the Minister has even understood the Question that has been put to him, but consistency and rationality are not exactly hallmarks of the present Government. Does he recall that the threshold amendment that we are talking about was passed in your Lordships’ House on the basis of a full argument? Why is there a different set of criteria here, given that your Lordships voted for a threshold in the first place?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I hear what the noble Lord says. I suggest that we have had a fair amount of debate on the subject over recent months and I suspect that more may be occasioned in the future. There is little precedent for thresholds being applied to referendums in the United Kingdom. There was no threshold in the referendums on Scottish and Welsh devolution in 1997, the Belfast agreement or the Greater London Authority in 1998, or in the north-east referendum in 2004. Also, no threshold is specified for mayoral referendums under the Local Government Act, despite very low turnouts having been seen in practice in some cases.
Lord Grocott
My Lords, the Question was fundamentally about whether the Government are adopting a consistent position in respect of determining the validity of a decision. Can the Minister simply explain why, when we are changing the constitution of the country, presumably for a very long time, the Government feel that there is no necessity even for the level of a threshold that is required for the recognition of a single trade union? It seems to most people to be a totally contradictory position.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, let me say, if I may be so bold, that that was not what the Question was about. The Question was about union recognition ballots. The Government’s position on that is, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”.
Lord Geddes
My Lords, for the avoidance of doubt, is the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, not slightly misinformed? We are not voting for a change in the constitution on 5 May. We are voting as to whether we should have such a change.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, this is a complex issue that is probably worthy of a lengthier debate; in seven minutes, even without hesitation, deviation and repetition, we are going to give it only a cursory examination. I trust that the Minister will agree that the seminar at No. 10 this week on encouraging employee engagement, an approach started by the previous Government, is a path worth pursuing. Will he also agree that, during the recent recession, trade unions with enlightened employers agreed to things such as a shorter working week, temporary lay-offs and delayed pay increases to save jobs, using this period also to engage in additional training? Surely the Minister will agree that encouraging constructive dialogue between trade unions and enlightened employers is a much better way forward than trying to restrict trade union recognition.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I cannot find anything in what the noble Lord said with which to disagree. I will leave it at that.
House of Lords: Prayers
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
To ask the Chairman of Committees what consideration can be given to widening the scope of House of Lords Prayers into devotions encompassing other Christian traditions and the faiths that are represented in the House.
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara)
My Lords, as noble Lords are aware, the Prayers read at the beginning of each Sitting of the House are read by one of the Lords Spiritual. The Lords Spiritual sit by virtue of being representatives of the established church, and the Prayers reflect that. Any changes to alter the Prayers would need to be considered by the Procedure Committee and agreed to by the House. There are currently no plans to alter the arrangements for Prayers.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
In Wales, we do not have an established church, but is it not time for Prayers in the House, including the present Prayers, to reflect the diversity of the different faiths and denominations that we have not only in the House but in the United Kingdom? Is this not an opportunity for us to consider having a minute of silence and reflection in addition to the Prayers?
The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, the practice of Prayers in the House is believed to have started in about 1558, and was common practice by 1567. The present form of Prayers probably dates from the reign of Charles II. Recent changes to the form of Prayers included allowing a choice from a range of Psalms, which was agreed by the House in 1970, and again in 1979, and one or two other minor changes. It might be a little premature to consider changing them now.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
As a Welsh non-conformist, like the noble Lord, may I assure the Minister that many of us are wholly satisfied with the timeless sentiments and superlative prose of the present Prayers? However, may I ask the Bishops’ Bench to consider one little matter as an act of fellowship and togetherness—that at the end of Prayers we all repeat the Grace, as happens in the other place?
The Chairman of Committees
I would need to discuss the latter point with the Bench of Bishop but I entirely agree with what the noble Lord said in the first part of his question. I do not believe that there is anything in the Prayers which could possibly be seen as offensive to members of other religions.
The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds
My Lords, I hope that we will take on board the point which has just been raised. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, makes an important point about how the House is to demonstrate its inclusivity while retaining what is good and worthwhile in its living heritage. In this year of celebration of the King James Bible, and its continuing inspiration 400 years on, will the Chairman of Committees comment on whether our Prayers, which date from the same era, also embody virtues which are simple, eternal and unifying?
The Chairman of Committees
I am sure that the right reverend Prelate is right. If there are further recommendations for changes to the Prayers used, I would be happy to look at them.
Lord St John of Fawsley
Does the Chairman of Committees agree that he has expressed the view of most Members of the House, though not all? I agree with him entirely that we must not interfere with the rights of the Lords Spiritual. At the same time, I believe in the idea behind this Question. We can best meet it by respectfully and humbly offering advice to the right reverend Prelates either in private or in public. Is he aware that I have put down a Question for Short Debate which contains the suggestion that we have a debate on the ecumenical movement between different churches and faiths? May I suggest that we have it in the dinner hour as the noble Lord would then be in peril of hearing me speak, which would get him out of purgatory?
The Chairman of Committees
The noble Lord makes some interesting points, but I am not sure that any of them require an answer from me.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
My Lords, I declare an interest as an honorary vice-president of the British Humanist Association. Without commenting on the established church, I will say that my personal preference is that we should not have Prayers at all. If we have to have an opening ceremony in which religion may play a part, will the Chairman of Committees make sure that the views of humanists are properly taken into account?
The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, the noble Lord questions why we have Prayers. It is a strength and a defining feature of the House that its practices are a matter for its own governance. These customs and practices can be altered, but after consideration by the Procedure Committee and then by the House as a whole. I remind noble Lords that attendance at Prayers is voluntary, not compulsory.
Lord Elton
My Lords, may I assure my noble friend that the concerns of humanists are entirely met by prayers by Christians in this Chamber every day?
Lord Clark of Windermere
Does the Chairman of Committees accept that there is a feeling that we need to move forward on this? Perhaps I might suggest that we bear in mind the sentiments best reflected in Hymn 279 in the Primitive Methodist Hymn Book, which begins:
“When wilt Thou save the people?
Oh God of mercy, when?
Not kings and lords, but nations,
Not thrones and crowns, but men!”—
and I include women in that.
The Chairman of Committees
I am grateful to the noble Lord for informing me of the contents of that hymn, but I am not entirely sure I agree that it is the sentiment of the House that we should move on this matter.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
The noble Lord has properly reminded the House of the traditions of its ancient past. However, with regard to the immediate future and the anticipated reform of the House, can he confirm that there have been consultations with the representatives of Christian denominations other than the Church of England, and indeed on a wider basis, with regard to the future composition of spiritual representation?
The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, I thought that we might come to the arguments about reform of the House. I am pleased to say that I have not taken part in any consultations on reform of the House. I understand that we will see proposals for reform fairly shortly. It will then be in matter, if and when there is a new House, for that House to decide whether it wants Prayers and, if so, what form of Prayers it wants.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Swansea, spoke for many of us when he endorsed the present form of Prayers and made the plea for the Grace to be said together. However, will my noble friend agree that many in this House who are not of the Christian faith, such as my noble friend who sits beside me who is a Hindu, warmly welcome the sentiments contained in the Prayers and the majesty of the language in which they are uttered?
The Chairman of Committees
The noble Lord is absolutely right. I tried to give that impression in an answer I gave earlier.
The Earl of Sandwich
My Lords, may I suggest to the Chairman of Committees that we introduce variety in the Collects? There is a wonderful range of Cranmer Collects. Could he say how the committee represents the church's views? Is there a permanent member of the committee from the church?
The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, the noble Earl wrote to me about the possibility of using different Collects. I have the matter in hand and I will come back to him in due course, after I have consulted the Bench of Bishops.
EU: European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord McAvoy
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions took place between the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr Alistair Darling, and his successor, Mr George Osborne, before the decision was taken to join the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism on 9 May 2010.
The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)
My Lords, the European financial stability mechanism was created following agreement by a qualified majority of member states at ECOFIN on 9 May 2010. All contact between the Treasury and the then opposition parties in that period followed the agreed Cabinet Office guidelines for the 2010 general election. Both my right honourable friend the Chancellor and the previous Chancellor set out their accounts of the discussions in their written evidence to the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee.
Lord McAvoy
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. Which of the two following positions is correct—David Cameron saying that George Osborne objected to joining the mechanism or Treasury Minister Justine Greening, who signed the document, saying that cross-party consensus had been gained?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, they are both correct. It may be helpful if I explain the situation a bit further. The discussion on which there was consensus concerned the process that would apply at the ECOFIN meeting on 9 May. There was no consensus on the question of the underlying policy matter. As my right honourable friend the Chancellor said in his written evidence to the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee:
“The purpose of the phone call was not to reach agreement, but for Mr Darling to consult me on the course of action he proposed. Given he was still Chancellor of the Exchequer at that point, representing the UK in a dynamic negotiating environment, it was for him to reach decisions. He did this, aware of my views”.
That is the evidence of my right honourable friend the Chancellor.
Lord Lawson of Blaby
My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that, whatever precisely may have happened on that regrettable occasion in the recent past, so far as the future is concerned there is firm agreement between us and the European Union that, when the present mechanism is replaced by a new mechanism in a couple of years’ time, we shall not be part of or bound by that new mechanism?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Lawson of Blaby, who, as is customary, brings us back to what is really important. I can absolutely confirm what he says. At the European Council on 17 December 2010, this Government did what the previous Government failed to do, which was to get agreement that there would be an amendment to the treaty that would achieve a permanent mechanism to be established by the member states of the euro area to safeguard the financial stability of the euro area as a whole. Therefore, it is indeed correct that, as of 2013 at the latest, the United Kingdom, being outside the euro area, will not be part of this mechanism. That is the critical point, which I can confirm.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I agree that this is an important point of public policy. However, it should be appreciated that there is a significant matter at stake, because my right honourable friend Alistair Darling appears to have been accused by the Prime Minister of acting out of faith as far as the present Government are concerned. The document signed by Justine Greening, the Economic Secretary and therefore answerable to the Chancellor, related to the legislation. It is headed “Explanatory Memorandum on European Union Legislation” and the last paragraph is as follows:
“It should be noted that whilst agreement on behalf of the UK was given by the previous administration, cross-party consensus had been gained”.
Is an apology not due to my right honourable friend, who acted entirely properly and consistently with this note?
Lord Sassoon
No, my Lords. No apology is due. I have already tried to make it clear, but let me make it absolutely clear again. Consensus was reached on the process by which the ECOFIN qualified majority voting meeting would take place. That, as has also been made completely clear, is quite a separate matter from my right honourable friend the Chancellor making clear his position on the underlying policy matter. The two matters are distinct. The decision on the policy matter was for the then Chancellor, Mr Alistair Darling. He was the Chancellor at the time and he took the decision.
Lord Newby
In view of the stress tests on the Irish banks that were recently announced, will the Minister confirm that any further support that the Irish banks might need via European mechanism facilities that are already in place will not require any additional funding from the European financial stability mechanism?
Lord Sassoon
I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Newby for again bringing us back to important current matters. The results of the Irish banks’ stress tests, as I understand it, will be released by the Central Bank of Ireland at 4.30 this afternoon, so it would be inappropriate to comment on them. Of course, the Irish authorities have consulted Her Majesty’s Treasury, the Bank of England and the FSA about the impact of bank restructuring, and the Government expect that the forthcoming announcement will remain in line with the broad principles of the support package provided to Ireland. I would just add that the Government have made clear their commitment to ensure that the Northern Ireland banking sector continues fully to meet the needs of businesses and consumers in Northern Ireland.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
In view of what the noble Lord has said, whatever Mr Darling and Mr Osborne may have said to each other is entirely irrelevant because the Commission had the nerve to bring forward the mechanism under a clause in the treaty—in fact, the clause is to allow member nations to help one another in natural disasters—which is decided by majority voting in the Council. Therefore, the British Government had no hope of avoiding our 14 per cent share of £50 billion, which we can ill afford at the moment.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, without rerunning previous discussions with the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, on the precise interpretation of the articles, the critical thing is that under the agreement reached at the European Council on 17 December, and very much led by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, it is clear that Article 122(2) of the treaty will no longer be needed for purposes of support in this form. Without debating what has happened in the past, let me just say that my right honourable friend at the European Council has secured complete clarity for the future.
Business of the House
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That the debate on the Motion in the name of Lord Hollick set down for today shall be limited to three and a half hours and that in the name of Lord Turnberg to two hours.
Draft Defamation Bill
The Chairman of Committees
That the Commons message of 28 March be considered; that a Committee of six Lords be appointed to join with the Committee appointed by the Commons to consider and report on the draft Defamation Bill presented to both Houses on 15 March (Cm 8020); and that the Committee should report on the draft Bill by 19 July 2011;
That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following members be appointed to the Committee:
L Bew, L Grade of Yarmouth, B Hayter of Kentish Town, L Marks of Henley-on-Thames, L Mawhinney, L Morris of Aberavon;
That the Committee have power to agree with the Committee appointed by the Commons in the appointment of a Chairman;
That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records;
That the Committee have power to appoint specialist advisers;
That the Committee have leave to report from time to time;
That the Committee have power to adjourn from place to place within the United Kingdom;
That the reports of the Committee from time to time shall be printed, regardless of any adjournment of the House;
That the evidence taken by the Committee shall, if the Committee so wishes, be published; and
That the Committee meet with the Committee appointed by the Commons on Monday 4 April at 4.00 pm in Committee Room 6.
Civil Contingencies Act 2004 (Amendment of List of Responders) Order 2011
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That the draft orders and regulations be referred to a Grand Committee.
Economy: Growth
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Hollick
To call attention to the case for policies to support economic growth and to promote investment, innovation, technology, infrastructure, skills and job creation; and to move for Papers.
Lord Hollick
My Lords, today’s debate on growth draws on the impressive range of experience and knowledge in our Chamber. We have five maiden speeches to look forward to—from the noble Lords, Lord Kestenbaum, Lord Wood, Lord Collins and Lord Popat, and the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington.
One of the keys to growth is productivity, and in today’s time-constrained debate, although gratefully somewhat extended, that means saying more in less time. I will do my best. I do not wish to rehash the debate about the pace of the fiscal consolidation adopted by the Chancellor. That was discussed at length last week. Putting the public finances on a sound and sustainable footing after the financial crisis is an essential first step towards recovery, but we cannot cut our way out of our economic problems. We also need a credible strategy for growth, because growth matters. Small changes in the growth rate over the next few years can undermine the Chancellor’s deficit reduction plan, and if he chooses to stick to plan A that might well lead to even deeper and more damaging cuts. Low growth in the short term will make big differences to our standard of living in the long term.
A reduction in our long-term growth rate from 2.5 per cent to 1.5 per cent would reduce aggregate growth over the next 20 years by nearly 30 per cent. A prolonged period of low growth would inflict a decade of stagnation, a loss of international competitiveness, a sharp deterioration in public services and a generation of jobless young people. The Government now acknowledge this and have begun to turn their attention to growth. Growth in our economy is currently anaemic, and we still have the full impact of the cuts to come, with their inevitable blow to consumer and business demand and confidence. Food and fuel prices are rising, and the Japanese economy has been badly hit. Against that background, the risk to the OBR’s forecast is very much on the downside.
The Plan for Growth, published with the Budget, is a welcome document, and so are many of the measures announced in the Budget to promote growth. The plan is the latest in a long line of efforts to improve our economic growth rate, stretching back to the work of Neddy in the 1960s. Indeed, my noble friend Lord Layard and I are veterans of the 1996 Commission on Public Policy and British Business report, entitled Promoting Prosperity. What is striking about this 50-year body of work is that, after allowing for the impact of greater globalisation and the emergence of new technologies, there is a remarkable consistency of analysis, findings and proposed remedies. Underinvestment, low productivity, inadequate skills, lack of availability of finance and over-burdensome regulation are ever-present themes. This consistency points to the deep-rooted nature of the problem and the sheer difficulty and complexity of raising the growth rate in a developed country in a highly competitive world economy.
Another lesson from past growth initiatives and plans is the overriding importance of excellent and consistent implementation and execution of policy measures. Too often, Governments chop and change, introducing new wheezes which have a short-term political impact but fail to provide the consistent and predictable environment that business needs. Much is promised, but little is delivered.
Improving productivity is a key driver of growth and has rightly been a priority in all plans. Yet, despite a good relative performance over the past 15 years, UK productivity per hour is some 17 per cent lower than the US and 10 per cent below that of Germany. Our services sector, the largest driver of jobs growth, responsible for 65 per cent of private sector output, accounts for much of that productivity gap. Improved skills, not least management capability, greater innovation and improved levels of investment are necessary preconditions to improving productivity.
The Budget brought some notable changes to planning and important clarity on tax treatment of overseas profits, but only limited deregulation. Some old friends reappeared. Enterprise zones, despite their very modest record and short-term impact, are back in fashion. Better, surely, to make the whole of the UK an enterprise zone with time-limited measures to promote enterprise, investment and business formation. If the Government really believe in localism, allow our cities to introduce their own set of policies to attract investment, to develop clusters and to meet local training needs. Business and investors partner with cities around the world, and would welcome the opportunity to do so in the UK.
While that deregulation is promised, other parts of the Government are busy undermining proven ingredients of our success. The creative sector, where I spent much of my career, accounts for more than 7 per cent of GDP, and relies on the steady supply of richly talented individuals. That does not happen as a course of nature. The likes of James Dyson, Paul Smith, Ridley Scott, Simon Rattle, Keith Richard and Alexander McQueen all went to art school, where the wild and the wacky creative talents can flourish. Art schools have had significantly to up their intake of overseas students to make ends meet. That, and the high level of fees, risks choking off the very supply of talent, often from disadvantaged backgrounds, that we need to remain a world leader.
Reductions in the level of taxation on profits and an increase in the level of tax incentives to invest are guaranteed a very warm welcome, but have they been targeted effectively? In the light of the need to boost investment, I would favour tax breaks on investment rather than a faster reduction in the overall rate of corporation tax. Why does investment in capital goods receive favourable tax allowance treatment, when intangible investment in process improvements, creative ideas, skills and IT, all of which drive innovation and productivity and in many businesses are the most important components of growth, are disadvantaged? In addition to their aim to achieve simplicity in tax matters, the Government should also adopt the principle of neutrality.
The UK has long been a laggard in capital investment. Last year, investment sank to 15 per cent of GDP, down from a 30-year average of 17 per cent, compared with 19 per cent in Germany and 21 per cent in France. Two particular areas of underinvestment stand out: infrastructure and energy. In its report last November on growth priorities, the McKinsey Global Institute estimated that the UK needs to spend £350 billion on transport over the next 20 years to renew our strategic network of roads, railways and airports to expand capacity and help to close the productivity gap. A further £170 billion is required over the same 20-year period to renew our energy infrastructure. It is therefore regrettable that the Government have gone for a quick political fix on fuel duty by clobbering the oil companies and thereby putting the oil companies’ investment plans at risk.
The Government currently enjoy exceptionally low long-term borrowing costs and should and must be at the heart of this vast infrastructure investment programme. But here we come up against a persistent and wretched piece of Treasury dogma, which dictates that, unlike in most OECD countries and contrary to the rules operating in the European Union, all borrowing by the Government, even if it can be serviced from cash revenues, must be included in the PSBR. Of course, borrowing that has to be financed through future taxation must be included, but if the return exceeds the cost of borrowing, the borrowing should not count towards the PSBR. As my former colleague at the IPPR, Gerry Holtham has pointed out, a state infrastructure bank could turn the PFI model on its head and provide loan finance for the construction of a road which could then be leased to the private sector in return for a rental income which can service and repay the debt. Road usage forecasting is sufficiently robust to enable the risk to the taxpayer of default to be covered by an appropriate guarantee charge, which should be included in the PSBR.
The income to finance the renewal of our road network will flow from the long overdue introduction of road pricing, which can easily be deployed using the vehicle number plate recognition system that works very effectively in London. Charging consumers for the use of expensive public assets is a fact of life in most countries, but in the UK, the very threat of it leads to a serious outbreak of jitters in the Government. I have advocated its introduction to Ministers in this Government and their predecessor and have always been met with an enthusiastic response to the idea but a terror at having to take responsibility for its introduction. The very severe challenges we face require boldness and courage from the Government. Timidity simply will not do.
Road pricing is but one example of how Governments can open up new markets and foster demand without recourse to the Exchequer. This Government and their predecessors have been quietly and impressively working, using administrative and legal powers to create new markets in the energy sector. Feed-in tariffs and the upcoming Green Deal are two such examples. The costs of the solar panels installed under the feed-in tariff scheme are largely borne by the total population of electricity consumers. The Green Deal is likely to see a range of energy-saving technology installed in homes, paid for by loans from electricity suppliers, which will be paid out of fuel-cost savings. The green mortgage thus created will attach to the property until repaid, regardless of who the owner is. Both schemes will create many jobs quickly, boost the economy and encourage product innovation and manufacturing. Another more conventional idea floated by the Secretary of State at the Department of Energy and Climate Change just before the Budget, which sadly did not survive the Treasury cull, was to lower the rate of VAT to 5 per cent for a limited period for home refurbishment and repairs up to a limit of, say, £20,000. This would have created many new jobs quickly, improved the housing stock and brought some cash transactions that are currently not in the VAT net back into the VAT net—all at a modest cost to the Exchequer. Perhaps the Secretary of State’s suggestion is being held back for next year’s Budget.
Another opportunity to stimulate a market and create demand at no cost to the taxpayer is the provision of sophisticated healthcare technology to the home that can be monitored remotely and that will allow the elderly and infirm to remain safely and happily in their own home and to delay or avoid the expensive option of a care home. This could be financed out of existing local authority budgets.
Ready access to finance is the sine qua non of growth. SMEs complain about the lack of availability of loan finance and the steep cost of loan renewal. Project Merlin might help but needs to be very closely monitored. Many SMEs are held back by a lack not of loan finance but of capital, and while there are welcome increases in the EIS and VCT allowances for early-stage companies, the threshold levels are set far too low to help the one sector of our economy that can create the majority of new jobs that we so badly need. Again, timidity seems to have won out.
The Plan for Growth reminds me of my school report—“a worthy and promising start, but much, much more needs to be done”. The OBR’s judgment was more dismissive; it saw insufficient evidence that The Plan for Growth would do anything to raise long-term growth. I anticipate that your Lordships will identify today many ideas and opportunities that will help us to improve on that position.
Lord Higgins
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, and I congratulate him on obtaining this debate. He certainly made a very thoughtful speech. It is interesting that he presented no alternative to the Government’s views; rather, he presented a series of ways in which the present policy could be enhanced. Each of the items that he mentioned deserves careful consideration.
As the noble Lord pointed out, we had an opportunity last week to consider cuts and the rate and extent of them. I remain firmly of the view that the Government are doing the absolute minimum required to get the economy back on an even keel, because, as the OBR report and the Red Book make very clear, even at the end of the five-year period, despite all the cuts and the tax increases, the actual amount of debt will have gone up rather than fallen. The longer one delays in taking action, the bigger the amount that you eventually have to pay off in total.
Perhaps I may make another point. As the noble Lord also rightly points out, the time available for debate today has been extended, but it is still down to four minutes per speaker. It is very difficult to deal with the points that he has made in a speech of four minutes. We should seriously consider whether a really extended debate in the Moses Room in which we could go into the OBR’s report in depth, because it is a very good report indeed and raises a number of issues, would not be more to the advantage of the House than time-limited debates on the Floor of the House.
I distinguished last week between two ways in which the expression “growth” may be used. It may be used to represent the fact that existing spare capacity is being used up more and therefore there is growth, or it may be used to represent increasing the underlying productive potential, which the noble Lord largely concentrated on. The course which the OBR is setting in gradually mopping up that excessive capacity—it anticipates that the end of the cycle will come in about 2016—is the right way to go. That is very similar, I feel bound to say, to what was attempted back in the early 1970s, although unfortunately that was wrecked by a massive increase in import prices. We are faced with the same problem. It was stigmatised as a dash for growth. I do not think what we are now proposing is that, nor do I think that it was then. What we have to do is get a steady increase in the amount of demand in the economy.
As regards the underlying productive potential, certainly we need to have more investment but we also need more saving. The reality is that those who have saved prudently, particularly those on low fixed incomes such as my former constituents in Worthing, find that their savings have been seriously attacked. It is very difficult to think why anyone should save at the moment, given that it is virtually impossible to get a real rate of return on savings. Therefore, as far as the productive potential is concerned and the Keynesian relationship between saving and investment, I would very much hope that the Government will now take further steps to increase the level of saving and give some real incentive for savers in the sense of an actively positive rate of return.
I find that I am already out of time and I have a speech for about the next two hours. Alas, I shall resist that temptation. None the less, the noble Lord has got the debate off on a very sound footing and I look forward to hearing what follows.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, for introducing this debate and I very much look forward to all the speeches, not least the maiden speeches. In my short time, I should like to say something about manufacturing. It seems to me that we have a unique opportunity to see growth in this sector. In a sense, the bankers have done manufacturing a favour in that banking no longer has the kudos, nor appears to many young people, I suspect, to be quite the wonderful career that it did.
There is no doubt that within and among young people there is a huge interest in this sector. I have done some work with the F1 in Schools and Greenpower charities, both of which set engineering tests for schools to enable children to get a taste of engineering and to promote engineering as a rewarding career. There is no doubt that the enthusiasm with which these programmes are taken up demonstrates a very large interest. Demand for engineering as a career is not a problem.
The issue is how we should put the structures in place to enable young people to take it up easily. I should like to commend two initiatives in the Budget. The first is the university technical colleges, which will promote vocational training. This area has been consistently underplayed. Many educationalists say that children should not specialise at an early age but my work with organisations such as the Prince’s Trust and SkillForce persuades me that for many children a vocational route is clearly what they want and is apparent at a relatively young age. Anyone who wants to see a case study should read the autobiography of Stuart Pearce, the under-21 England manager. He was hopeless academically but was a terrific electrician, which is what he did before he went into football. Many children know at a relatively early age that they do not want to study many academic subjects but that they are really interested in vocational subjects.
Secondly, this Government have increased the number of funded apprenticeships in the previous Budget and in this Budget by 125,000, which is very welcome. The challenge is on the private sector to take them up now that they are available. The manufacturing sector having been keen to ask the Government for additional support for apprenticeships, the ball now is in its court. I hope that the Government will press it hard to make sure that these apprenticeships are taken up.
Another issue promoted in the Budget which the sole voice of the noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, has reminded us about over the years in your Lordships’ House is the value of promoting high-value manufacturing via partnerships between the industry and universities. The decision to promote and to support high-value manufacturing, technology and innovation centres—surely that is the least elegant phrase among all the acronyms that the Government have come up with—is extremely welcome. The first, in Sheffield, on its own will generate 400 jobs and will enable the specialist engineering sector in that area, which Boeing and others have supported, to flourish further.
More generally, I have considerable sympathy with the proposals of the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, for investment. We support road pricing and I would support the proposal which I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, will be speaking on: a national investment bank. The Treasury will argue against many desirable things. That should not be a reason for our not doing them. The noble Lord, Lord Hollick, said that at this point we should be bold and that timidity will not do. We need to tell the Treasury that, as well as everybody else.
Lord Kestenbaum
My Lords, I begin by expressing gratitude for the generosity and warmth with which I have been received into your Lordships’ House. I have experienced kindness and consideration from everyone I have encountered. I have also discovered that the wisdom residing in this House is quite extraordinary. My sponsors, my noble friends Lord Sainsbury and Lord Puttnam, did much to ease my nerves, and the dedicated staff have been a remarkable source of guidance—in one case literally, as a distinguished doorkeeper gently stopped me from walking straight into a broom cupboard on my very first day here.
Perhaps this challenge of losing and then regaining one’s bearings is an appropriate personal metaphor. As my family name, Kestenbaum, indicates, home until the traumas of the 20th century was Germany. Leipzig and Frankfurt were our origins. At the time when Europe turned dark, our family, together with millions of endangered others, fled. It was a circuitous route, first to the United States and then to Japan, where I was born, then back to the US, and finally, as a child, to Britain. It was here that our community learnt that this country did not expect you to make a choice between loyalty to one’s faith and loyalty to the national interest while both are pursued with dignity.
But as I enter into this debate on economic growth, it is no coincidence that I should reflect on the two economies in which I grew up: Japan and the United States. My parents, while bringing up a young family in Japan, saw at first hand what has since been dubbed the Japanese economic miracle, a transformation in the standard of living powered by growth. But the lost decade of the 1990s, as it became known, is yet to be found. The United States, our family’s pre-war refuge, became the world’s largest economy not least by virtue of new technologies which saw GDP per head grow sevenfold in the 20th century. But despite this, more recently President Obama has said that the US economy, in order to grow, will need to reach a level of innovation not seen since the space race. So I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Hollick for calling urgent attention to this matter. We are now learning the same lesson as those other economies—that growth is not a national birthright, and the heady days when economic power was concentrated in the hands of a few are over.
In recent years my colleagues and I have been privileged to back some of Britain’s brightest young entrepreneurs. During my time as CEO of NESTA, and now as chief executive of Lord Rothschild’s family investment interests, we have scrutinised thousands of business plans and met hundreds of young high-tech innovators; and I have watched their concerns, particularly among a group of young entrepreneurs in Manchester with whom I worked closely. Those talented graduates did not just want to build new businesses, they wanted to feel that the embrace of new ideas and new technologies was central to our national purpose. The prize is great. Research published last week by NESTA entitled Vital growth shows that these fast-growing, innovative businesses continue to punch way above their weight, with just 7 per cent creating half of the new jobs. As your Lordships consider ways to increase this number, we might also consider the lessons of those Mancunian entrepreneurs. Innovation has to be embedded in our culture—it must be central to the national story.
This national culture of innovation so often provokes false choices, either a constant flurry of well-intentioned interventions or staying firmly out of the way. After all, say some, Thomas Edison did not need state aid to create the incandescent lamp—a lot of pluck and a little luck was all it took, so the argument goes. Yet an economic culture that produced innovators like Edison and others did not emerge by chance. Edison benefited from a postal service, new roads, public libraries and a stable banking system. All these were the public goods that made innovation flourish and showed how economic growth is built on a tapestry of skills, science, finance and regulation all working in tandem.
So often this interplay takes place where one might least expect it. Many of the high-tech entrepreneurs that I have worked with in recent years took their inspiration from Silicon Valley. The conventional wisdom is that, “There’s an economy entirely sustained by individuals”, and yet, subtle and intelligent public policy is everywhere in Silicon Valley. Defence spending funded a generation of microwave technology there that created the foundations for the semiconductor industry; the procurement strategies of DARPA kick-started hundreds of technology businesses. This combination of technological talent, supportive public policy and effective financing mechanisms is at the heart of great innovation economies.
This debate focuses quite rightly on the conditions for economic growth, but perhaps I may make one final, wider observation. Growth as a public policy imperative can do much: it can create jobs; it can reduce welfare dependency; it can over time help finance public services—it can do all these things at its best. But rapid economic growth simply for the relentless pursuit of wealth alone will do nothing for the long-term health of our nation. Economies never measured progress by the yardstick of growth in isolation, but, rather, how that growth made for a better society. So this debate, I suggest, is as much about the society that we wish to build as it is about the economy which will help build it.
I offer thanks to your Lordships’ House for giving me the opportunity to make my maiden speech on a subject that I feel will underpin many of our concerns in the months ahead.
Lord Bilimoria
My Lords, what a privilege it is to follow the absolutely superb maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Kestenbaum. This is a debate tailor-made for his Lordship. He has hit the ground running, showing the invaluable input that he will bring to this House, particularly in the field of innovation and enterprise where he has had huge experience. He made his mark in this country as the former CEO of NESTA, the National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts, the largest endowment in the UK, fostering innovation, and the country's biggest source of seed finance for technology start-ups.
Our House is renowned for its wisdom, and, of course, it follows that there is a certain maturity of age among our distinguished Members. With Jonathan, we have someone so young and yet with so much varied global experience which he will bring to bear here, having worked as a venture capitalist, having been the chief executive of my noble friend Lord Sachs’ Office of the Chief Rabbi and with his involvement in the arts and in higher education. He may very well have walked into one of our broom cupboards, but he has certainly made a grand entrance today and we look forward to many future contributions.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, for securing this crucial debate. Last week's Budget had so much that was music to the ears of the entrepreneurial community: encouraging start-ups; increasing the entrepreneurs’ relief limit; and the setting-up of enterprise zones—and, let us not forget, had it not been for enterprise zones, we would not have Canary Wharf today. The support for apprenticeships is tremendous, although I am yet to be convinced about the university technical colleges concept. StartUp Britain is terrific; however, we must remember that, as the noble Lord, Lord Kestenbaum, referred to, and as Professor Colin Mason has pointed out, 6 per cent of UK businesses with the highest growth rates generated half the new jobs created by existing businesses. Professor Mason tells us:
“The UK’s problem is the lack of high-growth firms”—
the gazelles—
“which go on to be ‘companies of scale’, rather than not enough start-ups. We need quality, not quantity”.
The reduction in corporation taxes is great news, but as the Chancellor said:
“high tax rates can do real damage … They crush enterprise, undermine aspiration and often undermine tax revenues”.—[Official Report, 23/3/11; Commons, col. 957.]
Those were the Chancellor’s words. The sooner the 50p tax rate is abolished, the more attractive Britain will be and, in fact, the tax take will go up. As for a property tax, this will take us back to the dark ages. I hope that this idea will be quashed before it can even get off the ground.
I am president of the UK India Business Council, supported by UKTI. At our annual summit in Manchester this month, the Indian High Commissioner, His Excellency Nalin Surie, said of India: “Our growth is your opportunity”. Yet British business is scratching the surface. We need to do much more to encourage British business to go global, particularly to countries such as India.
I have voiced my concern about the drastic cuts that the Government are making. Of course, we need to make savings, but it is what you cut that matters, and you do not have to cut everything. For example, cutting so severely investment in higher education will really harm this country. This, combined with a crude immigration cap, is seriously hampering higher education and business. We need to encourage growth and to keep investing in our infrastructure.
I have just returned from a business delegation hosted by the Emirate of Dubai, and in spite of all the problems that that country has experienced recently in terms of debt and a huge property crash, it is continuing to benefit from the phenomenal investment in world-class infrastructure and becoming a world-class hub in the region as a result of that investment, attracting 10 million tourists a year as well as trillions of dollars investment into Dubai.
This year I graduated from my nine-year president's leadership programme at Harvard Business School— I suppose that I am a slow learner. My study group presented me with a wonderful book, The Rational Optimist. Of course, I hope that they were referring to me. With all Britain's problems today—high inflation, low growth, high unemployment, a giant deficit, huge debt and far too high public spending—we are still one of the most open economies in the world. We still have so much of the best of the best in the world, be it advanced engineering, higher education or science. Only this week it was announced that Britain is in the top three in the world in the publishing of science papers—ahead of France and Germany. I bet that by 2050, the giants of India and China will be the two largest economies in the world, but I also bet that this tiny country will still be in the top 10.
Lord Popat
My Lords, it is with a great sense of honour and privilege that I speak for the first time in your Lordships’ House.
I am grateful to all noble Lords, and to the staff of the House, who were particularly helpful in allowing my Guru Moran i Bapu to witness my introductory ceremony in the Chamber. It is his teachings of truth, love and compassion that are the guiding principles of my life. His presence was in itself an historic occasion, as no Indian spiritual leader had ever attended this House to witness such a ceremony, and for me it was a great honour.
As some of you may know, I was born in Uganda and came here at the age of 17 under very difficult circumstances. In January 1971, I accompanied my father to drop my sister at Entebbe Airport, from where she was flying to study in the UK. At the stroke of midnight, the army of Idi Amin, the then dictator of Uganda, took control of the airport and ordered all flights to be cancelled.
Our family knew that our time in Uganda was limited, and in May of that year I moved to Britain, working in a Wimpy bar. The following year, Idi Amin expelled 30,000 Ugandan Asians, ordering them to leave within 90 days. They left behind a prosperous past and walked towards an uncertain future. I would like to thank the Conservative Government then led by the late Sir Edward Heath, who, along with a number of voluntary organisations, helped my fellow Ugandan Asians in our hour of need. We have never forgotten this lifeline that we were given, and I am proud to say today, 39 years on, these very same people are some of the most hard-working and patriotic in the country.
The powerful emotions that I feel today are simply explained. This country can boast that here, in Britain, people in genuine need of refuge can find a safe home, live in peace and rebuild their lives. If that was not enough, we were given the same rights as those who were born here, including the right to vote, which is a gift that we particularly cherish, yet that right is superseded by the privilege of joining your Lordships' House. From what I have witnessed in your Lordships’ House, and what I have learnt during the last 40 years, Britain's tolerance, decency, fairness and justice are its finest qualities. It is testimony to the tolerance and generosity of this country that the Hindu community is explicit in being proud to be British and proud to be Hindu, seeing no contradiction between the two. On the contrary, it is a mutual reinforcement.
I decided to take the title of Lord Popat, of Harrow, because for 30 years I have been a member and am now president of Harrow East Conservative Association. My parents lived in Harrow and I see this as a tribute to them, to whom I owe everything. My only regret is that they are no longer here to share this with me.
Over the past 40 years, the Ugandan Asians who came here as refugees have played a very successful role in Britain’s economy and are now a central part of Britain’s economic fabric. After training as an accountant, I myself have run my own business—and this brings me to the topic of today’s debate. The past decade of government reminds me of President Reagan’s pointed insight into the Government’s view of the economy:
“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidise it”.
It is about time we broke this cycle.
Our difficulties are bank borrowing, a complicated tax system, endless employments regulations and a planning system recently described by the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, as glacial. Small businesses are responsible for six out of 10 jobs in the UK. They are the engines of economic growth, and last week's Budget saw a series of welcome announcements, including the commitment of no new regulations on firms with fewer than 10 staff for three years, and the simplifications of the tax code. This will help to create new jobs, growth and prosperity, and I look forward to doing all I can to assist the Government in furthering this agenda.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom
My Lords, we have heard two maiden speeches, which have gone to remind us all of the richness and variety of the membership of your Lordships' House. We are very privileged to have with us the noble Lord, Lord Kestenbaum, with his experience of the Japanese and the US economy, which are two very different economies from our own. I think it is also true to say that he is extremely proud of his Jewish blood. We should pay tribute to the Jewish immigrants who come to our country, who have done so much to make it move forward and have shown so much enterprise, which has made us the country we are today. I declare an interest as I have a certain amount of Jewish blood myself on both sides—but unfortunately not enough.
I also pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Popat. I spent a certain amount of time in east Africa, in Kenya rather than Uganda, and I know the massive contribution that was made there by the Asian community. Of course, it was a tragedy for Uganda when Idi Amin decided to kick it out. There was a terrible moment here when we hesitated before actually agreeing to allow those Ugandan Asians to come to this country. What a good thing we did. Uganda’s loss was certainly our gain. Once again, we benefited from incredibly entrepreneurial immigrants who played a very massive role in the growth of our economy and the movement of our enterprises. My noble friend is, indeed, very welcome in our House, and we are very lucky to have him here.
I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, on launching this debate. I was extremely glad, as my noble friend Lord Newby was, that he raised the whole issue of road pricing. Road pricing is certainly something that should be embraced by our Government. It has the effect of actually getting motorists to contribute to the costs of the driving which they do, but I can understand why the Government are hesitant. The motoring community is certainly one that Governments rather hesitate before they antagonise them. But I think that this is the way forward, and I hope serious consideration will be given to road pricing. We have to be very brave if we are going to do it, and we have to price existing roads to pay for future roads. I totally accept the noble Lord’s point that technology has now moved on and has made this possible.
I would like to address the question of what I would describe as the phoney war about the whole business of deficit reduction. There is a concept being put forward by the shadow Chancellor, Ed Balls, that somehow there is a rather easier way of addressing the deficit. There is a suggestion from the Labour Party that if by some extraordinary circumstance it had actually won the last election it would have stayed with the Budget of the former Chancellor, Alistair Darling. I do not think there is the slightest chance of that happening whatsoever. If we had a Labour Government today, in total or global terms their deficit reduction plan would be very similar to the one that this Government are putting forward. If they had been in power Labour, too, would have taken £6 billion-worth of savings in the current year. It is a complete load of nonsense to suggest that there is somehow an easier way of approaching deficit reduction when the problems that we have are so massive. The reason for that is that although Chancellors love to pretend that they are in total control of the economy, the bottom line is that they are not. The people who have massive influence on our economy are those in the markets.
If we had gone ahead with the Darling Budget and had done nothing to change it, we would now be paying much higher interest rates than we are on our debt. That would merely roll forward the problems that we now have of increasing debt. This is one of the sadnesses that I have with the Budget which we have just seen: we are watching the total amount of government debt climb, in the OBR’s forecast, from £759 billion in 2009-10 to £1,359 billion at the end of the Parliament. I would like to see us repaying debt. It is very sad that we are going to inflict this enormous burden of debt on future generations.
Lord Wood of Anfield
My Lords, it is a privilege to be standing before you today. In particular, I am proud to be representing the cause and interests of redheads from across the political spectrum. I pledge to stand up for this minority in the years ahead. As an academic, my experience of public speaking has largely been limited to university lecture halls. I was given three tips by an academic colleague before my first lecture that I have obeyed religiously ever since. First, always insert a joke just after halfway through to wake your audience up if they are in danger of falling asleep. Secondly, never distribute your hand-out before you begin speaking or else your audience will pick it up, walk out and get a cup of coffee instead of listening to you. Thirdly, like Cicero, always make your points in groups of three. This advice has stood me in good stead and I pledge to repeat this formula during my contributions to the House in the years ahead.
I have felt not just a slight sense of awe but a great sense of humility since beginning my time on these famous red Benches. That is in part because, as a student and teacher of politics, I am acutely aware of the wisdom, distinction and contribution to Britain of generations of noble Lords who have come before me and served in this House, and in part because, at its best, I know that this House can provide an opportunity for scrutiny, reflection and collaboration in a political system otherwise short of such qualities and a place to speak up for those whose voices do not often get heard.
I am also humbled by the fact that I am surrounded by many of the people, on all sides of this House, who inspired me first to study, then teach and then practise politics. I had a sense as a teenager that politics was, as Tony Blair once said,
“the place for the pursuit of noble causes”—[Official Report, Commons, 27/6/07; col. 334.],
and could offer the possibility for ideas and collective action to change our country for the better. I believed it strongly during my time working for the former Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, to whom I will always be indebted and whose dedication to public service is second to none. I still believe it passionately and I hope my time in this House fuels rather than dims that optimism. Lastly, I thank noble Lords from all sides of the House for their kindness, in particular my noble friends Lady Nye and Lord Kinnock for their encouragement, friendship, cups of tea and hand-holding.
Growth is of course the necessary condition for meeting the aspirations of the British people and funding the public services on which we all rely. My point today is that we should take this opportunity as a country, as we emerge from the international recession, to move beyond a simple concern with what Keynes called,
“the growth of the cake”,
as,
“the object of true religion”.
In particular, we need to focus on three crucial aspects of economic growth. First, we need to aim not just for growth but for sustainable growth in which consumption is based on rising living standards, not excessively dependent on borrowing; where business profits rise as a result of investment and innovation, not simply through speculation; and where environmental sustainability is built in rather than bolted on to the business models of small and large firms alike. This is a long-term ambition. It cannot be achieved through a quick fix, and it requires thinking about how we reshape our economy in quite fundamental ways.
Secondly, we need to move on beyond the rather stale polarity of laissez-faire on the one hand and the demonisation of old-style corporatist industrial policy on the other, to work out not whether but how a Government can provide secure foundations for long-term growth and for raising productivity. Increasing the value of what we produce demands an intelligent role for government intervention: to stimulate greater innovation, modernise our infrastructure and ensure that our banks serve the investment and research needs of companies as well as they serve the short-term interests of their shareholders.
Thirdly, alongside our determination to restore growth, we must have equal determination to ensure that the proceeds of growth are enjoyed by the many, not the few. This is not the case at the moment and has not been for a while. In 1979, the top 1 per cent received under 6 per cent of Britain’s personal income; in 2005 they received over 14 per cent. For the last 30 years, 22 per cent of every extra pound earned has gone into the pockets of the top 1 per cent. Since the global recovery from the financial crisis began, real wages in the USA have increased by $168 billion and in Germany by €36 billion, but in Britain real wages have actually fallen while profits have risen by £14 billion.
In the United States a debate is raging about how growth can raise living standards for all, and whether it is globalisation, technological change, the competition for talent or political choice that is behind the increasing polarisation of rewards. In Britain that debate is only starting now but is long overdue. I hope that noble Lords agree with me that it is a subject to which we should devote some time in this House in the coming months and years, because doing our utmost to ensure that economic growth is not only strong and secure but shared widely is surely among the first duties of those who govern Britain.
Lord Skidelsky
My Lords, I listened with great interest, as I am sure we all did, to the attractive maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Wood of Anfield. He comes to the House from a notable academic and policy-advising background—Magdalen College Oxford, then No. 10 Downing Street. He will bring to our deliberations a much needed blend of theoretical rigour, practical experience and social passion. We got a flavour of all three in his maiden speech and it is certain that they will give distinction to his future contributions to our debates. I join other noble Lords in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, for securing this debate.
My proposition is quite simple: there is too little demand in the economy for robust growth, and the Chancellor’s policy of taking demand out of the economy is exactly the reverse of what is needed. The squeeze in public spending seems bound to stay, but there are two ways in which we can try to increase growth in the economy despite the cuts.
The first, referred to by the noble Lords, Lord Hollick and Lord Newby, is to set up a national investment bank with a mandate to invest in green projects, transport infrastructure, social housing and export-oriented SMEs. A limited fiscal commitment of, say, £10 billion over four years would allow the new bank to spend, say, £100 billion over that period with conservative gearing, provided that it was allowed to borrow. That is the key point. The Chancellor has taken a small step in that direction by giving the go-ahead to the green bank, but that will be allowed to spend only £3 billion and it cannot borrow until 2015, and even then only if the Government’s debt reduction target is being met, which I doubt will be the case. The Chancellor has lost a big opportunity to scale up the original idea. A principal merit of my scheme is that a national investment bank could create a new class of bonds, long term but with a slightly higher yield than gilts, which would suit long-term investors. It would thus be a way of mobilising pension funds for investment in the long-term future of our economy.
My second point is that we need to rebalance the economy away from financial services towards high-value manufacturing and creative services, two things mentioned by previous speakers. The banks have a key role to play in this, but for that we need radical banking reform. That has scarcely been started. I therefore support Mervyn King’s championing of a British Glass-Steagall Act to split the banking system into commercial and investment banks. We need to avoid like the plague repeating the situation when the core commercial banks were so riddled with bad bets foisted on them by their investment-banking masters that they ran out of money to lend to households and businesses—the very people requiring support in a recession. That is quite apart from the enormous loans and debts with which they have saddled the taxpayer.
This is not just a matter of rebalancing British banking to serve the needs of the economy; it is a matter of rebalancing power in the economy to serve the needs of the British people. As things stand, the banks are the permanent government of the country, whichever party is in power. Unless we can break their power, I fear that all that issues from our political processes and what we are saying in this House today will be a lot of,
“sound and fury, signifying nothing”.
Baroness Coussins
My Lords, the recent White Paper Trade and Investment for Growth contains one fleeting mention of the shortage of language skills. I declare an interest as chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Modern Languages and urge the Government to strengthen their strategy by improving the UK’s language competence. None of the overarching objectives can be fully achieved without it.
UK companies do not seem to understand that the lack of language skills is an important barrier to growth. A survey in 2010 found that, across Europe, 33 per cent of businesses regard foreign language skills as “very important” when recruiting graduates, but the figure for the UK was only 5 per cent, with three-quarters of UK companies saying that they were “not at all important”. Can the Minister say what the Government can do to encourage businesses to invest in language training and to develop a better understanding of the benefits of language skills? We know that export businesses that proactively use language skills and the cultural knowledge that goes with them achieve on average 45 per cent more sales. Other research suggests that improving language skills could add up to £21 billion a year to the UK economy.
Another figure worth quoting, given the explosion in online sales, is that over 70 per cent of consumers require information in their native language in order to make an online purchase, while people who do not have good English are six times less likely to buy from an English-only site. It is self-defeating and inaccurate to think that English is enough. Only 6 per cent of the world’s population are native English speakers and 75 per cent speak no English at all. The relative amount of internet content in English is declining but that in Chinese is rising and there are more blogs in Japanese than in English.
Neither is English enough in the world of scientific research, which will inform commercial innovation. In China, there are 4,600 scientific journals, only 186 of which are published in English. Employers in the UK who are ahead of the game know that they do not just need people who can speak French and German, although these remain the most sought-after languages. Mandarin or Cantonese come next. With markets opening up in central Asia, Latin America and the Far East, employers also need Spanish, Russian and Arabic. If our school leavers and graduates are not able to offer these skills, employers will recruit overseas.
Sadly, our young people have less and less to offer in the way of language skills. Urgent interdepartmental work is needed between the Treasury, BIS and the Department for Education to make sure that the review of the national curriculum results in a better outcome for languages. Most state school pupils study no languages after the age of 14 and an OECD survey put Britain joint bottom of a league table of 39 countries in the developed world for the amount of lesson time spent on languages. This really is an important barrier to our potential for growth.
I ask the Minister also to speak to his colleagues in BIS to ensure that a further barrier is not created by abolishing the fee waiver for students spending a year abroad as part of their degree. This really would be a real own goal. Market reports consistently say that employers prefer to recruit graduates who have spent time living abroad as part of their course, whether they are linguists, engineers, lawyers or anything else.
It is ironic that we should have such a problem with languages when we have a hugely multilingual population. We should make more of this. Companies considering where to locate regard the availability of language skills as absolutely essential. The message about London’s linguistic diversity as an asset for attracting inward investment needs to be heard more loudly and proudly.
Finally, is the Minister aware of the EU report on the language industry itself, which is set to double in value to €16.5 billion by 2015? The report sets out ways for businesses, especially SMEs, to benefit from multilingual competence. Will the Minister encourage British businesses to take advantage of this potential for growth?
Viscount Eccles
My Lords, I am left wishing that I spoke more languages than I do.
That politics and sustainable economic growth are uneasy partners comes out of this debate very strongly. They do not fit well together. As the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, who introduced this debate, said:
“Much is promised, but little is delivered”.
As the noble Lord, Lord Kestenbaum, said, innovation has been and remains the key to the advance of science and technology. Of course, Governments are always behind the curve. They do not keep up with the front line of innovation. The noble Lord, Lord Hollick, took us back to Neddy, the late Lord George-Brown and 265 million tonnes of coal, if I remember rightly.
At the time, I was working for a medium-sized business that made pithead gear, mine car circuits, skip-winding plants and coal washery plants. We made a lot of them. I suspect that the average life of those plants as against the predicted and perfectly feasible life would not be better than half. They went out of commission one after another when they were still in totally good working order. As the noble Lord, Lord Sugar, reminded us in an interesting speech a week ago, Governments are really only good at scene setting. We need good technical education, as the noble Lord, Lord Newby, said, good roads, as the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, said, and low taxes, but please keep out of the clockwork. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Sugar, said that Governments should always keep out of the clockwork because they do not understand the front line; they have never been in the front line, he said. That may be going a little bit far.
I was allegedly in command of a steel foundry in Stockton-on-Tees, where I was given good tips on which horse was going to win that afternoon. I was a part-time marriage counsellor. Steel foundries are quite dangerous. We used to take the factory inspector as close to the furnace as we could in order to minimise his visits. We did not have a serious hospital-type accident for the whole time I was there. The workforce kept me out of danger much more than I did them. As the noble Lord, Lord Sugar, said, we have arrived at a dependency culture, which means that we think that everybody else should solve our problems and perhaps we should not solve them ourselves.
That leads me, finally, to a health warning. The Government offer a lot of schemes. Governments always have. They say: “If you do this, you will get this grant at the end of the process”. I have suffered from these schemes for many years, but they never include a health warning. The health warning should say: “Please remember that when you apply for a government-based grant it is coming out of public money. It has come from the taxpayer and must be handled very carefully. You should calculate the amount and cost of time that it will take you to apply. When you have done that, double it”.
Lord Collins of Highbury
My Lords, first, I thank the officials and staff for such a warm introduction to this House. Not only did they make me feel extremely welcome, they made my husband, Rafael, feel extremely welcome to. Rafael has put up with me working very long hours for a very long time, first for the union Unite and then for the Labour Party. He thought that things would change when I took my seat here. Your Lordships can therefore imagine his surprise when I said that my Whip would require me to be here all night. Yes, it did take a lot of explaining.
Secondly, I thank your Lordships, not least for the fact that I am able to say “my husband”. These Benches have helped transform my life and the lives of countless other lesbian and gay people in this country. I am immensely pleased that it is no longer just noble friends on one side of this House who applaud progress in this area but noble Lords on every side of the Chamber. That consensus is a sign of this House at its best.
I am greatly indebted to my sponsors, the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones and Lady Prosser. Like myself, my noble friends—the “Margarets”—are products of the trade union movement. It was the Transport and General Workers’ Union—now Unite—which enabled me to leave its employment temporarily to attend university. My union provided me with many opportunities that I would not otherwise have had. I hope that noble Lords on the government Benches look to the trade unions when seeking inspiration for their big society.
It was my own experiences as a child that drew me to politics, as I imagine was the case with many of my noble friends. The death of my father meant that my mother was faced with the loss of her husband, her home and her livelihood in short succession. She was determined to provide for her children and her hard work and resolve secured our future. Yet my mother would have been the first to acknowledge that things might have turned out very differently had it not been for the progress achieved through politics. It was the Equal Pay Act that transformed my family’s income and provided a level playing field for women like my mother. It was changes in the law that gave my mother protection from exploitation and it was changes in the law that enabled her to become an economically active individual rather than being dependent on the state. Politics is the personal and in the necessary task to reduce the deficit my fear is that this has been forgotten. I am further concerned that amid all the talk of rolling back red tape, we must be very careful that we do not also roll back those 30 years of progress through politics and forget that politics is the personal.
I know that my mother would have been very proud if she could have been here today to hear me speak. Her struggle then is the struggle of thousands of working women now who support their families and grow the economy. If we make it harder for them to work, and drive down the economy, we will only make it harder on ourselves. I hope that noble Lords will take these points on board.
Finally, I, too, thank my noble friend Lord Hollick for making this debate possible.
Baroness Prosser
My Lords, it gives me great pleasure to welcome my noble friend Lord Collins of Highbury to this House on the day of his maiden speech. I am one of the “Margarets” to whom he referred. I first met my noble friend in the 1980s when I came to the Transport and General Workers’ Union as a paid organiser—in retrospect, a naive newcomer—experienced in local politics, which I quickly learnt did not equip me well to deal with the internal macho politics of the trade union movement.
My noble friend helped me find the right path. He was junior to me but he was an operator who knew just what was going on both nationally and regionally, and certainly who was doing what in central office. He knew the union rule book inside out and backwards and he made himself indispensable to the then and subsequent general secretaries. We became firm friends and I learnt of his kindness, his commitment to what is right and his generosity of spirit. He supported me during my year as president of the TUC, travelling with me at home and abroad, making sure that I spoke to the right people and steering me clear of those deemed best avoided. Our close friendship and constant companionship at union events led to us being known in the T&G as “Victoria and Albert”. Both my noble friend and I moved on up the union hierarchy, working closely with our then general secretary, Bill, now the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Handsworth. Our leadership of the T&G marked a particular high point in the union's recognition of its diverse membership with a black general secretary, a woman deputy general secretary and a gay assistant general secretary. I often thought that if the old GLC had still been in existence, we would have been given a grant. I was immensely proud when my noble friend was appointed general secretary of the Labour Party. He has devoted energy, commitment and political skill. I trust that he will be well remembered for it.
Turning to the subject matter at hand, I, too, thank my noble friend Lord Hollick for placing this debate on the agenda today. I want to concentrate my remarks on the positive impact on economic growth made by government investment in the training and upskilling of the workforce. In particular, I draw attention to the Women and Work Sector Pathways Initiative, a skills programme designed to help alleviate the estimated loss to the economy of between £15 billion and £23 billion per year through the underuse of women's skills and capacity. This is the figure quoted in the Women and Work Commission report launched in March 2006, which persuaded the then Chancellor of the Exchequer to allocate dedicated funds to help rectify the situation. The programme commenced in mid-2006 and continues to this very day—the last of the financial year 2011. During this time, more than 23,000 women have benefited from training, retraining or upskilling. Investment in the scheme by the Government up to the year end March 2010 has been just over £14 million, superseded by the employers’ contribution over the same period of just over £20 million in cash and in kind.
The programme is under the umbrella of UKCES and delivered by participating sector skills councils. Over the past year, 13 sector skills councils ran 14 programmes, including land-based skills, textile and fashion, PSV driving, construction management, financial services, tourism, and so on. The aim of the scheme is to target women in sectors where they are underrepresented or where there are skills shortages. The UKCES has commissioned Leeds Met University to evaluate the programme and in its latest report, which covers April 2009 to March 2010, the writers expressed concern that the economic downturn may have had an adverse impact on employers’ willingness to engage in training. This was not, however, the case and employers and participants alike have again expressed high levels of satisfaction. Some 92 per cent said that they would like the programme to continue and 85 per cent of participants said that they would like to continue with further training. Only 7 per cent of employers said that participation entailed too much paperwork or bureaucracy.
So here we have a successful training scheme, described in glowing terms by employers and participants alike, capturing more than 5,000 women per year, costing less than a measly £5 million per year—and what does the Minister do? He decides to merge the scheme into a general scheme entitled the Employer Investment Fund. The women's programme will continue until the autumn, while the other aspects of the new scheme get sorted out and organised. Of course I desperately hope that the new arrangements prove as successful as those of the past five years. Of course I desperately hope that women workers will not yet again be dropped to the bottom of the agenda—but I am not holding my breath. I thank noble Lords and emphasise that these are all essential ingredients to a financially healthy scheme.
Lord Stoneham of Droxford
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, on initiating this debate, and the maiden speakers on their first speeches in the House. It is a gamble to deal with the structural deficit in one Parliament, and to do it primarily by public spending reductions. However, the strategy has already had one major success in reassuring the bond markets so that the UK can borrow more cheaply than countries with lower deficits. Tight fiscal policy, combined with easy monetary policy and a competitive exchange rate, provides the best choice for avoiding a sovereign debt crisis while ensuring acceptable increases in growth.
The problem is that the alternative is a bigger gamble still. It was right in 2008 to allow a rise in public borrowing to restore growth and avoid a calamitous rise in unemployment, but the second highest deficit in the OECD must now be corrected. No one yet knows how public spending cuts will affect them, and this is creating uncertainty in the economy. That is one of the principal reasons to get on with consolidating the public finances rather than dragging out the process over two Parliaments. People will always assume the worst until it is done. For some it will be painful, but for many it will not be as bad as they anticipated. Consumer spending will be weak in the coming year, but all attempts to promote growth on mounting consumer debt will end in tears. It is business investment and exports that must provide the impetus.
There are encouraging signs. The economy is already two-paced. Despite the understandable gloom in areas where public spending is strong, manufacturing and exports have prospects and growth that they have not experienced in a decade. We want to get other businesses out of the mentality of cost cutting to maintain profit margins and to now start planning for growth.
The actions of the banks are one of the keys to future growth. I think that we all have doubts about whether they will respond when the country needs them, but if we are to get the uplift in business investment that we need, they must lend more to business and particularly to SMEs, because they are their only source of capital and finance. The Government's dominant shareholdings in the banking sector must be used to set targets for the lending that the country can reasonably expect from the banks. The lack of borrowing capacity in the green bank was a principal disappointment in the Budget, as the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, highlighted.
The other key requirement is to achieve stability in the outlook for interest rates. Any move upwards must be avoided now, but at some later stage it will be better to have the certainty of a modest, gradual and inevitable move upwards, rather than to have consumers and businesses fearing the worst. The economy always takes longer to respond and policy-makers hope. It takes time to change direction. However, we must be patient and hold our course. As uncertainty lifts, the economy will start to pick up.
Baroness Worthington
My Lords, it is a great privilege to stand before you today to give my maiden speech. I will begin by thanking my sponsors, my noble friends Lord Eatwell and Lord Bassam of Brighton, and my mentor, my noble friend Lord Puttnam. I also extend my gratitude to all the staff of the House who have made me and my baby son feel very welcome. My elevation coincided almost exactly with my becoming a mother—in effect, two life sentences in one week. I am most grateful for the tolerance and patience that everyone has shown towards me as I try to balance these two important new roles. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Hollick for tabling an important debate as it allows me the opportunity to offer some thoughts on the issue I know most about: the need to tackle global climate change with sustainable economic policy.
Climate change is the political and moral challenge of our time. Each year brings fresh evidence of the consequences of gambling with our planet's atmosphere. Future generations will judge us on how we act on this issue more than on any other. To date, sadly, our progress has been too slow. In preparing this speech, I looked back through Hansard and was interested to see that in March 1991, a week after the Budget had been published, the House held a debate on global warming. A great deal has changed since then, but sadly some concerns expressed by noble Lords two decades ago are still very pertinent today.
The good news is that in 2011 our economy is less reliant than it once was on the burning of fossil fuels. The carbon intensity of our economy has steadily fallen. The bad news is that this has not necessarily been done deliberately: it is largely due to a decline in our heavy industries and manufacturing, and to the dash for gas. To consciously reduce emissions is a much harder thing to achieve, as we have discovered in a succession of well meaning but largely ineffectual climate change policies throughout the 1990s and 2000s. This is why, when I worked at Friends of the Earth, I felt that we needed a new legal framework to begin the process of decarbonising our economy.
Having set up the campaign for new climate laws, I left Friends of the Earth to join energy company Scottish and Southern—poacher turned gamekeeper, if you will. There I was fortunate to work closely with the CEO, Ian Marchant, who was a great inspiration. My recruitment was his idea and I think that his intention was to shake things up a bit—both his organisation and my own preconceptions. Until that point I had campaigned to shut down dirty, old, coal-fired power stations, two of which Scottish and Southern owned. I still believe that we need to shut down our old coal, but I now have a lot more respect for the men and women who work tirelessly to keep the lights on. Our task is to ensure that they can continue to do so without a negative impact on the environment.
While at Scottish and Southern, I was seconded to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. There I was able to view life through yet another prism and came to better understand the process of government. I became part of the team tasked with drafting the Climate Change Bill. When the Act entered the statute book in 2008 it was a world first, committing the UK to delivering emissions cuts of 80 per cent by 2050 using a series of successive carbon budgets.
With a climate Act in place, what has changed since 1991? The only mention of the environment in the Budget Statement of the then Chancellor, now the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, was in relation to an increase in fuel duty; yet 20 years of high fuel taxation has proved only that it is very difficult to price people and goods off the roads unless there is an affordable alternative.
Last week's Budget at least contained a few more references to climate change, but it was still a long way from being a green Budget. Fuel duty was frozen, but with no clear plan for weaning us of our addiction to oil. The green investment bank, as previous speakers have said, has its hands tied. The carbon floor price is merely an expensive way to deliver no environmental impact, with no guarantees that anything will be built. Under the previous Government, an investment of just over £20 million secured jobs in an electric car manufacturing plant in Sunderland. I am sad to say that the scheme that enabled that investment no longer exists.
I am conscious that time today is limited. There are many issues relating to climate change and energy that I hope I can return to in subsequent debates. We need to have a deep debate about the role of nuclear power. The recent terrible events in Japan remind us of the risks inherent in a technology that was developed primarily for Cold War military application. A civilian nuclear programme based on inherently safer, thorium-fuelled reactors could engender a paradigm shift in how we view nuclear power.
Britain has a history of delivering industrial revolution. This revolution towards a sustainable, low-carbon economy will not be easy; it will involve countering a large number of powerful opposing forces and vested interests. However, as Archimedes once remarked, “Give me the right place to stand and I can move mountains”. I hope that in this Chamber, I am standing in the right place and that, together, we can move mountains.
Lord Broers
My Lords, we have had a series of outstanding maiden speeches in this debate, and it is my privilege and pleasure to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, and to congratulate her on a truly excellent maiden speech. She brings to this House a wealth of knowledge on climate change matters, as she has clearly demonstrated. She has worked on these crucial issues with the energy industry, advising Scottish and Southern Energy. She then brought her expertise to government, working on the Climate Change Act, and she helped the Government in their campaign to inform the public about the importance of these issues. Her contributions to public understanding have been noteworthy, and I know that we all look forward to her helping this House deal with, for example, the complexities of carbon trading and the EU Emissions Trading Scheme, not to mention the green investment bank. We welcome her warmly.
I was pleased to find in the Budget some real, if insufficient, attempts to tackle the major issues that confront us—those of low productivity, lack of spending on R&D by industry, out-of-date and inefficient infrastructure, and expensive financing. Many have said that we must restore our industrial base and our infrastructure.
I start with infrastructure. I regard banking as just another element of infrastructure. As with housing, energy and transport, it should be efficient and low cost, and I fail to see how this is consistent with banks seeking profits of the order of 20 per cent or more. Would we be happy if our rail operators made similar profits? Where our banks are operating overseas, it might be justified on the basis that their practices contribute to the current account, but here they should be taking professionally calculated risks on industrial initiatives rather than gambling on obscure hedging instruments. I totally support Mervyn King in his attempts to separate these issues but I do not find much in the Budget to assure me that they will do so.
I join others in pointing out that we need to increase our manufacturing output. Our deficit in manufactured goods remains at about £50 billion. It is encouraging that manufacturing is now growing at 12 per cent, but at this rate it will still take 15 to 20 years to recover what we have lost in the past 12 years. Coutts and Rowthorn have pointed out that an increase of only 10 per cent in manufactured exports, combined with a 10 per cent fall in manufactured imports, would generate a £45 billion improvement in the current account balance, which is equal to the total UK net earnings from financial services and insurance and more than one and a half times that contributed by all other services. To do this, we need more competitive products, and to create these we need a broad spectrum of creative engineering.
The good news is the Government’s acceptance of Hermann Hauser’s technology innovation centres but, if these are to succeed, industry must concentrate its R&D resources in them, as do the Germans. The enhancement of the enterprise investment schemes are also good news. They will stimulate the formation of new companies and appropriately reward our courageous and professional venture capitalists and angels.
The overall problem of course is much larger than can be resolved with the TICs and by new start-ups. Overall spending on R&D must be increased. At 1.8 per cent of GDP, our spend is 40 per cent lower than that of the US, 30 per cent lower than that of Germany and 20 per cent lower than that of France. Our situation is unbalanced. We have a science budget of £4.6 billion, which supports a science base that is second only to that of the US and is our greatest asset, but this is not matched by our spending on development, which should be several times higher. The TSB is doing a brave job with its budget of roughly half a billion but the rest must come from the private sector, which does not seem to be happening.
The reduction in corporation tax will help, as will the progressive increases in R&D tax credit, but why is the change in R&D tax credit restricted to SMEs? Only the large companies can mount the prime manufacturing projects that we desperately need, and it is the large companies that sustain the SMEs. I ask the Minister to explain the Government’s thinking on this.
We have a great opportunity to increase manufacturing output by building our new energy and transport systems. However, sadly, much of this may come from overseas. There is hope that these foreign-owned companies will manufacture those systems in the UK, but surely it would be better if, to take the words of the Chancellor in concluding his Budget speech, more of it carried the labels:
“‘Made in Britain’, ‘Created in Britain’, ‘Designed in Britain’ and ‘Invented in Britain’”.—[Official Report, Commons, 23/3/11; col. 966.]
These are courageous words but it will take more than the changes in the Budget if we are to succeed in doing this. I ask the Minister to reassure us that there is more to come.
Lord Bhattacharyya
My Lords, I join those who have thanked my noble friend Lord Hollick for securing this debate. I also support the remarks about the excellent maiden speeches that we have heard.
As the director of Warwick Manufacturing Group, I declare an interest as a professor of engineering and as someone who has worked for 40 years in the field of manufacturing here and abroad. I am also a long-time student of the gap between speeches and the shop floor.
The Chancellor’s Budget speech referred to a “march of the makers”. Apprenticeships, the UTCs, extending the Enterprise Investment Scheme, the Manufacturing Advisory Service and the green investment bank are some worthwhile modifications of programmes set up under the Labour Government. They are welcome but the “makers” have heard fine words before and have been let down. The devil is in the detail and in how things are implemented. Sadly, we have never been good at that in the United Kingdom. We do not want a repeat of the “white heat of technology”, which in the 1960s promised much but delivered little.
Today, manufacturing is enjoying a surge in exports and profits, driven by exchange rate gains, increased competitiveness and sticky wages. Quite a lot of that comes from inward investment, some of which I have been privileged to bring in myself. However, there are major issues to be addressed if this growth is to be sustained. In the 1950s, British gross capital formation was a little over half that of Germany and Japan. It stood at 16 per cent of GDP. Today, capital formation is 15 per cent of GDP—still significantly below our main competitors. In 2009, as the noble Lord, Lord Broers, said, UK investment in R&D shrank both in cash and real terms. Business R&D fell significantly. There was a recovery in 2010, but by the final quarter we were flat-lining again.
We need better incentives for the private sector to invest in developing improved products and systems. While the R&D tax credit changes are useful, the reductions to capital allowances work in the opposite direction. Further, the research funding system is so complex and distant from commercial reality that many small companies get little advantage from participating in R&D programmes. In this House, we have debated impact many times and, while I agree that evaluation based on commercial impact is not right for all subjects, in applied sciences and engineering it is surely essential.
Why do we need such commercial clarity? We need it because, although manufacturing is fashionable today, experience tells us that existing schemes and centres will stick a “manufacturing” badge on their projects to secure funds without delivering what we need. We need clarity on impact to prevent that. Indeed, we are already seeing the bizarre situation of projects trying to secure funding from government and talking about a 15-year strategy before being sustainable and delivering commercial impact. That is far too long. However, many good things have happened. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Newby, about what the Technology Strategy Board does when it comes to technology and innovation strategy. However, it does not have much money. If it were doubled or tripled, it would still be a minuscule amount compared with what is needed—it is at the front end of all our approaches to the manufacturing industry. The perennial problem of underinvestment is exacerbated by the inability of business to obtain finance.
I do not want to repeat what the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, said regarding an investment bank, but it would be dishonest of me to say that the Budget was bad for manufacturing. However, if we are to succeed, we need more than a splash of fuel. We need to supercharge the engine. Time will tell whether this Government’s deeds match their words.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, for securing such a vital debate today and congratulate all the maiden speakers on such excellent speeches. I wish them well in their journey in the House of Lords.
Growth is essential to reducing the public debt ratio. Cutting the deficit without that being accompanied by strong growth will end up in disaster. Let us remind ourselves of the Labour Government in 1997. From 1997 until 2002, the Labour Government stuck to the Conservative spending targets and the UK net debt fell from 42 per cent of GDP to 29 per cent of GDP. They did that precisely by growing the economy, not just by cutting spending alone. There are economic growth policies consistent with debt stabilisation but the problem for this Government is that they have scared the population witless with their austerity message. “Vote for us and death tomorrow” is not a good slogan, so they will need to change. They realise now that there has to be a different mantra. They have to give people some hope and something to look forward to.
The recent Budget, as people have indicated, is a big gamble because it is taking more than £100 billion out of the economy and, at the same time, there is an ambitious 3 per cent growth target by 2015. That can be done only by investment. We need investment in our communities, our infrastructure and most of all in our people. Let us remind ourselves of the lessons of the 1980s. If the slack in the economy persists for too long unemployment becomes structural. That is why we need investment today.
The Labour Government left some good legacies for this Government—some positives on which they should build. For example, the labour market performance is better than in previous recessions, although unemployment is now going up for both young people and the population in general. Company liquidations and home repossessions are fewer than they were in previous recessions and the large depreciation in the currency has most certainly helped drive the export market. We are in an environment of historically low interest rates and it would be folly to disturb that in the present climate. We need to exploit the relative price changes and complement these policies by making use of the low interest rate environment and by complementing behavioural changes induced by the increased oil prices to promote a low carbon economy. We must also ensure that we maximise the boost to tradables by the fall, or depreciation, in the currency.
These are extraordinary times and the crisis is not yet finished, as we can see in the Republic of Ireland today. It has had its bailout but almost all Irish banks will be nationalised today as a result of it. The crisis is still working its way out in Europe—in Greece and Portugal. Given the crucial importance of the European market for our exports, the Government need to be careful in their attitude to possible future bailouts. If they do not engage in this process, that will further risk reinforcing the divisions with those both within and without the currency. There is no doubt that there will be implications for our foreign policy, which is very sensitive to the Government as we stand today.
Extraordinary times demand extraordinary measures. I would not be advocating, as others have done, an investment bank had it not been for extraordinary times. I called for the very same in a Guardian article, “Britain needs a state bank”, on 9 January 2009. Sadly, the Government at the time did not take that up, but it is very important if these objectives to growth are to be attained. If there is a European investment bank, why cannot there be a UK investment bank? If we have a network of post offices throughout the country, why cannot the post office network be used to ensure that the Government achieve their ambitious lending targets?
Today the Government are offering cheap finance. If we ensure that the debt is indexed, finance can be done at 1 per cent and we need only get money back to service the debt. Mention has already been made about the attitude of the Treasury to public investment. The HMT approach to public investment needs revisiting. Given the big gamble, the Government need to show boldness, as my noble friend Lord Hollick said, and not timidity. We need policies that are consistent with these ambitious targets and I suggest that one beneficial step would be to change the slogan from “Cuts, cuts, cuts” to “Investment, investment, investment”.
Baroness Warsi
My Lords, I remind the House that when the clock hits “4”, four minutes are up.
Baroness Greenfield
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, for the opportunity to discuss this wide-ranging topic. As a neuroscientist at Oxford and Chancellor of Heriot-Watt, I shall focus on innovation in universities by considering four bottlenecks along with some examples of how we might deal with them.
Bottleneck one is the limited talent pool of young scientists forming the next generation of researchers. Currently only 16 per cent of A-level candidates opt for one or more science subjects, so how can we sell science effectively to bright sixth formers? Just one idea could be a twinning scheme where graduate students sign up for an ongoing relationship with a local school, thereby themselves gaining invaluable experience. The continuing mentoring that could ensue, as well as work experience in the twinned lab, might completely transform the career plans of a 16 year-old.
Bottleneck two is the diminishing talent pool resulting from the sub-optimal retention of women in science. One crucial issue here is the conflict of pregnancy and its aftermath with the demands of a highly competitive research career. Returner schemes, such as those pioneered by the Daphne Jackson Trust, would ring-fence funds for fellowships for anyone who had taken time off from research for primary childcare responsibilities. However, only the Government could have the resources to roll out a returner fellowship competition to an extent that would make a real national impact.
Bottleneck three is the lack of a cohesive strategy for optimising translational research. Universities generally have limited patent budgets, which can force technology transfer offices to form spin-out companies too early so that a very high proportion fail and patent applications may be dropped before any value can be realised through licensing. Meanwhile, investors are often wary of a technology that the scientists are unable to explain to them in terms that they can understand. Such investors may also view the work as: too high risk; at too early a stage; too little, given the funding required, to give a good return; or having a burn rate that is too high and exits that are not obvious.
One possibility around these cultural minefields could be to set up venture capital syndicates that do not invest as such but give some private sector grants. Modest but highly timely amounts of money could be awarded, with the financial burden diluted by the collective membership. In return, however, each individual member of the syndicate would have privileged access to the research as it was developed and therefore first refusal to purchase the IP and perhaps develop the spin-out as and when the work matured and as and when people felt personally that the time was right. The notion of private sector grants is not in the national culture of either academics or, indeed a venture capitalist, so the Government could be perfectly positioned not to contribute financially but rather to act as a kind of co-ordinating broker.
Bottleneck four lies in the current attitudes of non-translational but potentially highly innovative basic research. Surely for originality to flourish we first need to let a thousand flowers bloom, but the current peer review process is open to criticism—especially and typically when money is tight—of being risk averse. In addition, currently only 10 to 15 per cent of research council grants are successful. Let us assume that that does not mean that some 90 per cent of British academics are simply poor scientists. A very heretical, yet perhaps effective, change might be to abolish the peer review system and research councils altogether and divide the available funds along with the vast sums saved from the bureaucracy equally between eligible scientists. Of course, there would need to be careful thought as to where the boundary conditions of eligibility were set, along with potential penalty measures.
It would be a fascinating paper exercise at least, to see how much money would be immediately available to each scientist to explore their particular scientific challenge, unencumbered by insecurity or lengthy futile applications. Given breathing space, scientists could once again truly maximise original thinking and regain the confidence for developing innovative theories that challenge existing dogma. Why would such an intellectual nirvana help the more practical issues that we are debating today? Bear in mind the fact that quantum theory concerning the inseparable nature of waves and particles, when it was developed at the beginning of last century, seemed to be a highly abstract notion. Now, however, this improbable theorising has led to lasers, transistors and modern computers, as well as an understanding of molecular bonds and X-ray crystallography without which modern molecular biology would not be possible. To those four bottlenecks, there are no easy answers, but those are at least some suggestions for unblocking them.
Lord Soley
My Lords, I echo the congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, on securing this wide-ranging debate, and welcome the excellent maiden speeches, which are a good indication for the future of this House.
I want to focus my very limited time on the importance of aerospace and aviation policy. I have a straight request to the Government: please get an aviation policy. I do not accept what the Secretary of State said in his letter published in the Times yesterday, in response to wide-ranging comments in the Times from many businessmen and from the City of London that if we do not attempt to protect our premier hub airport we will diminish in importance.
I should say at this stage that I no longer have an interest to declare, because I am no longer campaign director of Future Heathrow. Believe me, everyone in this country has an interest in preserving a premier hub airport for Britain. We are the only country in continental Europe and among the emerging nations of Brazil, India, China and others which has not either already expanded or is expanding its airports, particularly hub airports. Hub airports are the way the global economy interconnects. It is the way that the European economy is connected. It is the way that investment decisions are made about where you can meet.
In the limited time available, let me give one or two simple facts to the House. A few years back, Heathrow could fly you to 240 destinations worldwide. Now it is 180, and the airport is full. Frankfurt can fly you to 307. Frankfurt sits in the middle of the largest, richest market in the world and can fly you to 307 destinations. What is its pitch in China, India, Brazil and everywhere else? Come to Frankfurt for your investment decisions and we can fly you on to wherever else you need to go. This Minister, more than any other, will know that Frankfurt has a burgeoning financial sector. London does not have to have the only and premier financial sector in Europe, and we will not do if we continue to hand the business over to Frankfurt. When the chief executive of Schiphol Airport in Amsterdam heard about the British Government’s recent decision not to have any expansion of airports anywhere in the south-east, the response was the same as before: “Good news for Schiphol; bad news for London”. Schiphol will fly you to 21 British regional cities; Heathrow will fly you to seven.
This is not an argument about the environment. I yield to no one in my concern about climate change—I wrote my first article about it back in 1981—but I do not believe and never have believed that you can solve the problem of climate change by hairshirt policies such as telling people, as the Government recently did, that they want to decrease the demand for flying. We have to be cleverer about it. I have been telling the aviation industry for a considerable time that it needs to sharpen up its act in conveying the message. Frankfurt has reduced its CO2 emissions below its level in 2004, although it has doubled its expansion. If the Germans can do it, we can.
When Dubai’s hub, rather immodestly called the world hub, comes on stream, it will also bypass Heathrow for many from the Middle East and the Indian subcontinent. Many big companies located around Heathrow have already moved. Where have they moved to? To Amsterdam, to Frankfurt—less so to Paris—but increasingly to Madrid. BA's tie-up with the Spanish airline means that many of the flights now coming in from Brazil and the rest of South America go not to Heathrow but to Madrid. I say to the Government: if you do not get an aviation policy, this country will marginalise itself in the global and European economy. We will pay an awfully high price for that and will not do anything to improve the climate.
Lord Empey
My Lords, it is good that once again we are discussing matters that go to the very heart of our economic future. I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, for securing this debate. We have also had a banquet of maiden speeches in the House today, and it has been wonderful to hear them; they certainly enrich our proceedings.
Investment, innovation, technology, infrastructure, skills and job creation are the buzzwords we all use when talking about our nation's ability to regain economic momentum. Members may be aware that this autumn, WorldSkills 2011 will be held here in London. WorldSkills is a biannual event which was last held in Calgary in 2009. I had the privilege of attending that event as Skills Minister, along with members of the previous Government. We saw many of our young people competing with their peers from all over the world, and the UK did very well, obtaining many medals for excellence in a variety of disciplines. Even higher targets have been set for London this year. WorldSkills is a bit like the skills Olympics, although the association does not like to call it that. It gives young people, whether they are training to be tradespeople, beauticians, gardeners or workers in aerospace, the confidence to take on the best in the world.
However, my main point is that whatever training is provided or acquired by the state, the most important thing cannot be manufactured: the right attitude. I fear that the attitude towards work, especially manual and manufacturing work, is severely deficient in this country. There has been much criticism that thousands of people have come into this country, mostly from within the EU, and gained almost half of the new jobs created during the boom years up to 2008. Why did that happen? Many employers told me that the big difference between the indigenous and migrant workers was their attitude and work ethic. There were no duvet days for many of those migrant workers, no sick days, and they were always available for whatever overtime they were offered.
I know that such comparisons are dangerous. Many of those migrant workers did not have families so were freely available without other commitments. Also, many were highly skilled, so businesses did not need to pay to train them. Nevertheless, there is some truth in the anecdotal stories about their attitude to work that needs to be taken seriously. We are also in danger of leaving a pool of disillusioned indigenous workers, many of them in our inner cities.
The workforce of this country built up this nation's wealth for centuries, and many paid a heavy price with their health and often their lives. I have seen with my own eyes the skills that many of our people possess and which, under continuous upskilling of our existing workforce, they can acquire. However, there is a missing link. In many cases, people do not connect the acquisition of a skill with a rewarding lifestyle. Too many people have been sent to training schemes that have not led to a job. That has undermined the principle of work paying, as those schemes are frequently seen as a waste of time. We have much to do to break that cycle, particularly in concentrated geographical areas of our country.
I hope that the Minister can confirm that Her Majesty's Government will do all in their power to promote the type of work ethic that once made this country great. Without restoring a meaningful balance in our economy, particularly in manufacturing, we will never develop the ability once again to create the wealth that will pay for the public services that all of us so desperately want to be delivered. The information and ideas that have come from different parts of the Chamber today have demonstrated that we have the ideas that can lead us back to the greatness of our industry as it once was.
Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe
My Lords, I am delighted to be able to contribute to this debate, in which we have enjoyed some marvellous maiden speeches. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Hollick on securing this opportunity to follow up last week's wide-ranging and illuminating debate on rebalancing the economy.
I strongly believe that a strategy for economic recovery must prioritise our strengths in innovation and high-level skills. High-level skills are the currency of today's knowledge economy, and I want to concentrate my remarks on the critical role played by the UK's higher education sector in providing and developing those skills. This is a subject on which I have spoken previously in this House and elsewhere, and which I explored on many occasions during my time as chief executive of Universities UK.
Higher education has been called a global powerhouse for knowledge economies. That is certainly the case in the UK. Our universities and higher education colleges have an unparalleled record in fostering innovation, enterprise and skills and in helping to create wealth and job opportunities. I know our Government understand this. Indeed, the coalition Government acknowledge that universities are essential for building a strong and innovative economy. This reflects a widespread political recognition of the importance of higher education to the UK achieved over the past decade and the unprecedented political and financial commitment given to this highly successful sector by the previous Government. This was achieved in part because the universities themselves were able to produce the evidence to convince government that higher education was a worthwhile investment, not a cost.
As we consider a growth strategy and await the higher education White Paper, I urge the Government not to lose sight of this essential point: if we are not to fall behind competitor nations, many of which are investing heavily in universities, we cannot afford to row back on our investment in knowledge and knowledge transfer. Despite the years of additional investment, we still spend less on higher education than the OECD average. Meanwhile China and India are already turning out more engineers and more university graduates than the whole of Europe and American combined. Of course the public funding climate has changed. Universities understand that they have to shoulder their share of the cuts, so last week’s Budget’s encouragement to our research base in the form of changes to R&D tax credits and an additional £100 million in capital expenditure for science was very welcome. The spending review also gave some protection to the science budget in cash terms. However, these chinks of light should not blind us to the scale of the cuts being applied to higher education. Universities are by their very nature long-term organisations. World-class research, the creation of new ideas, products and industries and the development of a highly skilled workforce are all long-term benefits. Like other noble Lords, I refer to the OECD 2010 innovation report which concluded that Governments must continue to invest in future sources of growth, such as education, infrastructure and research. Cutting back public investment in support of innovation may provide short-term fiscal relief but will damage the foundations of long-term growth.
I wish to make two further short points about how we can best nurture our high-level skills. We must continue to support ways of transforming research into innovation, build stronger links between the UK’s science and research base and industry, create more spin-out companies and attract overseas investment to the UK. We must provide an environment in which international collaboration can flourish. That means a student visa system that is understood to be welcoming to international scholars. Of course abuse must be tackled, but the Government must also ensure that our ability to attract the best students is not harmed as a consequence. As Vince Cable has acknowledged in another place, we cannot measure where our investment should be in monetary terms alone. If we are to be players in the global knowledge economy, we cannot afford to lose momentum in our investment in higher education. To stand still in this regard is to fall behind.
Baroness Wheatcroft
My Lords, the prime requirement for growth is a stable economic environment. That is the golden rule. Noble Lords will recall that the previous Government had a different rule. In his first Budget, Chancellor George Osborne had to report that Gordon Brown’s golden rule about restricting the country’s borrowing had not quite been met. In fact, the target had been missed by £485 billion. Rules may be made to be broken, but surely not by £485 billion. Restoring the nation’s finances is the prerequisite for a thriving business economy. There are other things that a Government can do to foster business, and last week we saw some welcome steps in that direction, particularly with the reduction in corporation tax, and a firm commitment to reduce the 50 per cent rate of income tax is also something that will encourage the business community. There is plenty of evidence to demonstrate that punitive tax rates do not enhance a nation’s wealth.
What is truly important for businesses is the degree of certainty and clarity about the regime in which they operate and the taxes and regulations that apply. The Government have indicated that they understand that tax is unduly complicated and that there is a need to simplify it. The noble Lord, Lord Wood, in his admirable maiden speech, suggested that a joke half way through a speech would be welcome. I do not really have one, but I refer noble Lords to Tolley’s Tax Guide. It now runs to 1,897 pages, which is an increase of 185 per cent since 1999. That is not really funny. Businesses need a break from too many rules and too much regulation. Although the Government are moving in that direction, there is still plenty of scope for a scythe to be wielded.
The animal spirit of true entrepreneurism will win through if we do not put too many obstacles in its way. Britain has some great businesses, but we need more. We are in the forefront in the services sector, but despite the understandable talk of the financial world needing to slow down a bit, manufacturing is actually already a greater contributor to our economy than financial services. There are some great success stories. We cannot compete with the low-cost economies of the world on price, but we can on quality and design. I was cheered yesterday to hear of a business in Lancashire that weaves its own fabrics and turns them into high-quality furnishings. It is called Herbert Parkinson, and it is owned by the John Lewis Partnership. It employs 300 people, and last year its sales exceeded £47 million. This year it will top £50 million. It succeeds because it produces the quality and design that customers want. British companies will not undercut the prices of Sri Lanka or Turkey, but we can compete with the world’s best when it comes to quality and design.
We hear repeatedly that smaller companies and entrepreneurs find it hard to raise the finance they need to foster this sort of quality. If that is the case, I have one potential solution. Our larger companies are currently sitting on huge amounts of cash. I fear that the investment bankers will be knocking on their doors, trying to persuade them to buy their rivals and spend their money that way. That would generate welcome fees for the bankers, but we know that rarely do such takeovers bolster the nation’s wealth. It would be better by far that those big companies back smaller entrepreneurial outfits, providing them not just with cash but with confidence and contacts. Tax breaks for such investments have been mooted. Xavier Rolet, the chief executive of the London Stock Exchange, has suggested it. I do not think tax breaks should be the reason. I think that companies need to invest and nurture smaller businesses, and I encourage the Government’s business council, which is doing some wonderful work, to encourage just this idea.
Lord Mitchell
My Lords, 11 years in your Lordships’ House and for the first time, I have lost my speech. Actually, it was left on the Northern line, so while somebody was having a lot of fun reading it, I was having a quiet panic in the Bishops’ Bar, trying to reconstruct it. Anyhow, here goes.
First, I thank my noble friend Lord Hollick for securing this debate. He started as an entrepreneur, he ran a major media group and now he is with one of the premier private equity companies in the world. He is the quintessential businessman. I, too, am an entrepreneur. I have started three companies from scratch, built them up and eventually sold them. It is great. I have loved being an entrepreneur and I would recommend it to anybody. Seeing companies grow and develop and seeing your staff grow is fantastic. However, there is a dark side to being an entrepreneur as well. It is terrifying not being sure that you can meet the payroll, there are problems with the banks, all sorts of things wake you up in a cold sweat at two in the morning and the stress is enormous. So when I hear the Government say that 300,000 public sector employees will, as a result of all the cuts, somehow find another job because of private sector growth and the entrepreneurial society that we are going to form, I simply do not believe it. I cannot conceive that somebody who has been working in the public sector for 10 or 20 years is somehow suddenly going to come out and become an entrepreneur. It absolutely does not make sense to me.
The tone of today’s debate has been, “What is wrong with the UK economy?”. I want to devote the two minutes and 15 seconds that I have left to what is right. It is a very exciting story. The noble Lord, Lord Kestenbaum, in his excellent speech, talked about Silicon Valley. We now have a Silicon Valley in this country. It is not in Cambridge; it is three miles from here and it is a revolution. It has the most wonderful title of “Silicon Roundabout”. It is to be seen around Old Street and Brick Lane—indeed, that whole area. It is the east London cluster development and it is better than anything else in Europe. It is fabulously exciting and it needs an awful lot more publicity.
I suppose that one of the things that people always said about Silicon Valley was that it was clusters of people with similar ideas in life getting together after work. I recommend to any noble Lord taking a drive around Silicon Roundabout to see the bars, the restaurants and the unbelievable enthusiasm around there. It is full of young people all working in small businesses in creative industries such as applications for iPhones, music, advertising, fashion and movies, in all of which London is to the forefront. As I said, young people are doing all this. There is something about that area that Cambridge would never have and the City and the West End never have. It is edgy and cool and it attracts these sorts of people.
How did this area come about? It did not come about under this Government or the previous one either. It was spontaneous. It just happened. It has just grown like Topsy. Why? First, low rents were available. Secondly, it was close to the centres of finance, fashion, theatre and advertising companies. It has produced these raw entrepreneurs, to the extent that today American companies such as Cisco and Google have decided to invest in these areas and in these companies. It is very exciting.
These companies are now running out of space. Where will they go to? After the Olympics in 2012, many of them will work in the Olympic park and, for the first time anywhere in the world, an Olympic Games will have a true legacy made up of high-tech and creative industries.
Lord Morris of Handsworth
My Lords, in this debate I have noted a broad measure of agreement right across your Lordships’ House—agreement on the fundamental requirements for sustained economic growth, many of which were so ably set out in the introduction by my noble friend Lord Hollick. I associate myself with his comments.
We all believe in a stable economy that is underpinned by sound monetary and fiscal policies, we are all committed to the pursuit of excellence at every level of our education system and we all support an economic model that is based on investment, research and innovation. We all want to see Britain leading the world in its exports, supported by a robust and transparent finance sector. Of course, with my background I am proud to say that in Britain we have the most flexible labour market in the European Union. Therefore, if I am right about the fundamental requirements for economic growth I am bound to ask what is holding us back; why the German economy is growing in a recession throughout Europe; why the US, China and India are growing world exporters while growth forecast in our country is being revised down and down; and why investment is being reduced time after time in sector after sector.
However, investment is not just about investment in plants and machinery; it is also about people. That is why I use the term “socially responsible”, because that is one of the requirements for economic success. The well-being of this or indeed any nation directly correlates with the economic performance of the country. The society in which we live expects certain norms to be part and parcel of social and economic policy. That is why it is so important that we start right at the beginning in the early years.
Of course, what we have experienced recently are cuts in the social infrastructure. That will not deliver growth. There is no growth to be had in cutting swimming pools or indeed closing parks and libraries. In the long term, some of the policies that we are following will in themselves retard growth. The increase in university tuition fees will probably deter some of our young people from taking those vital steps towards higher education. One of the engines of economic growth, particularly in the venture capital sector, is our pension funds. The recent decision to change the contribution rates will mean that less and less is available for that important sector. To conclude, we have run out of options by following cuts. The only option left to us is to go for growth.
Lord Rees of Ludlow
My Lords, noble Lords might have read about the winners of the 2010 Nobel physics prize, Andre Geim and Kostya Novoselov. They are both Russians who came to the UK in 1999, to Manchester University, where they were given freedom and support for a speculative request, which paid off massively. They discovered that carbon atoms could form a sheet just one atom thick—a new material called graphene with astonishing strength and novel electric properties. They needed time but no costly equipment. The clinching experiments involved strips of Sellotape. Graphene might be the basis for transformative technologies, but its development will not be so cheap and it will be fully as intellectually challenging. Engineers like the noble Lord, Lord Broers, would endorse the message of the old cartoon showing two beavers looking up at a hydroelectric dam. One is saying to the other, “I didn’t actually build it, but it’s based on my idea”. Will the UK deploy the resources and expertise to benefit from discoveries such as graphene?
This episode prompts other concerns. Would younger counterparts of these two Russians today make the UK their preferred destination? Would they even get entry visas? Do our brightest and best young people perceive a spirit of enterprise in a country in which science and engineering offer good career prospects? Even in the privileged environment of Cambridge—I declare an interest as a professor there—my younger colleagues seem ever more preoccupied with grant cuts, job security and so on, and prospects of breakthroughs will plummet if such concerns pray unduly on the minds of even the brightest.
In research, international excellence is all. The difference in pay-off between the very best and the merely good is by any measure thousands of per cent. Therefore, most crucial in enhancing value for money for taxpayers is not scraping a few per cent in efficiency savings; it is maximising the chance of big breakthroughs by attracting and supporting top mobile talent and sending positive signals to the young.
In his state of the union address in January, President Obama asserted that his nation faced another Sputnik moment due to the rise of the Far East as a competitor. He argued against cuts in R&D investment with a neat metaphor. He said that you cannot make an overweight aircraft more airworthy by removing an engine. That message is even more vital for the UK. Science and innovation are essential engines if we are to rebalance our economy away from an overdependence on the financial sector. What is needed is a 10-year or 15-year road map, which offers hope that, after four years of declining real-terms funding, science can share the fruits of the recovery that it should help to generate. We can surely afford it. The total UK science budget is now less than the bonus pool for London bankers.
We do not know what will be the 21st-century counterparts of the electron, the double helix and the computer. Nor do we know where the great future innovators will get their formative training and their inspiration. But the UK will decline unless it can sustain its edge in discovery and innovation, get its share of these key people and ensure that some of the key ideas of the 21st century are generated and, even more important, exploited here.
Lord Patel
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my noble friend Lord Rees and I will continue the theme that he started. First, I declare an interest as chancellor of the University of Dundee, where I also worked for nearly 40 years. The university’s College of Life Sciences and Division of Signal Transduction Therapy is a model of the largest collaboration of academia and pharma in the United Kingdom. It is about such collaboration that I wish to speak today.
The Academy of Medical Sciences report, Academia, Industry and the NHS: Collaboration and Innovation, and the NESTA report, All Together Now: Improving Cross-sector Collaboration in the UK Biomedical Industry, highlight the opportunity that the UK has, with its world-leading pharma industry, biomedical science and National Health Service, to produce innovations and economic growth. The pharmaceutical industry is changing its model of R&D investment to that of more extramural funding, which I believe provides opportunities for the United Kingdom.
An ageing population and the increasing use of healthcare in the BRIC countries means that the industry has huge growth potential. Countries such as the USA, Singapore and France have recognised this by increasing their investment in research capabilities. We have strong research universities in life sciences, as evidenced by the high citation impact, which beat even the United States of America. But we underexploit the resources that we have—the NHS, universities, and large and small pharma.
While strong institutions, enabling regulations, funding and people with research skills are important, what is lacking across the country is collaborative mechanisms, and the fora, incentives and metrics that promote and encourage interactions between the players. Collaboration allows a better use of resources, avoids duplication and improves access to specialist facilities and expertise, which importantly improves the capacity for innovation. Big pharma is increasingly looking for external partners for drug development. Industry currently funds around 10 per cent of biomedical research in UK universities. If universities were to increase this to 15 per cent, it would mean an extra £100 million, which still would be only 8.5 per cent of extramural R&D funding of pharma companies.
There is a risk that the UK will remain static while other countries grow. One indicator of the extent of such collaboration could be an analysis of the levels of clinical trials activity in each hospital trust. Currently, the number of patients enrolled in clinical trials is low and falling. Collaboration would produce company growth in the private sector and increase income in the public sector. As pharma grows, R&D spend will grow. By 2015, there could be an additional £3 billion in external R&D funding. We need the right infrastructure, an electronic patient record system to support research and reform of the VAT system to encourage collaboration, and to develop more specialist support services.
The UK should accelerate the development of electronic patient records to support medical research and aim to become the world leader. Scotland has made a success of this and provides a valuable research resource. Industry can help by providing more industry placements and secondments. The intellectual property model of universities, NHS and pharma needs to change from getting income to developing research further. There needs to be more sharing of research facilities to reduce costs. Similar arguments could also be made to pricing policies for research that involves risk sharing.
I hope the Minister agrees that in our world-leading pharma, leading research universities and the NHS, we have fantastic opportunities to bring about innovation and treatment of disease. The Government should examine ways to see how best to bring this about.
Lord Haskel
My Lords, first, I congratulate my noble friend on this debate. I should also like to commend the Minister for his perseverance. This is the third Thursday on which he has been on that Bench. I am very pleased that this debate has moved on and that we have not heard a lot of speeches which continuously tell us that all our troubles have been down to the previous Government.
I agree with my noble friend Lord Hollick that the Government’s paper, The Plan for Growth, has many hopes and aspirations. Who of us does not support balance in the economy and growth in manufacturing, investment, skills and science and technology? We all share, and have shared, these aspirations for many years. When I talk to people in business today and ask them what they consider to be the most important factor for their future prospects, the answer is not tax, regulation, or the five things that the Government list in their paper. It is people such as those who my noble friend Lord Hollick listed and the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, spoke about; as a Jewish immigrant, I thank him for his words. It is not people who are anxious to avoid tax. As my noble friend Lord Kestenbaum said, it is people who want to be part of a national effort to build our economy. But this topic is entirely absent from this paper. It is the modern style of outward-looking, entrepreneurial people-based management which seems to be the hallmark of most new successful businesses, about which my noble friend Lord Mitchell spoke.
The noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, spoke about government grants. Yes, the Government do try but their finance is available in small packets for specific purposes. Schemes are announced all the time. One such scheme, announced in May 2010, was a tax break for the first 10 employees of a new business set up in Britain’s poorer regions This scheme received special mention in the Economist on 3 March. A government source described the take-up as “incredibly low”. It was incredibly low not because of bureaucracy but because this fragmented attitude no longer works. Trying to tease out individual causes does not seem to work any more. Businessmen have to bring it all together. At the end of the day, you either have confidence in the people and the project or you do not. As everyone knows, it is people who matter, which is where our priority should lie.
Lord Birt
My Lords, the UK economy in London and the south-east is measurably as productive as any in Europe, not just because of the City’s world-leading financial services—something that we threaten at our peril—but, just as importantly, because of the vibrancy of London’s creative and business service sectors. However, overall, UK productivity persistently lags behind our leading competitors, as many noble Lords have pointed out. What can the Government do about this? Economic value is not created by Governments but by individuals who have insight and ability, and access to capital to realise that insight. Yet many individuals and businesses in recent years have been experiencing something akin to a cataclysm. The economy has taken a veritable body blow. Thus Government can most help business by engendering a stable economic framework, something that Governments the world over, along with regulators and financial institutions, have all too conspicuously failed to do over the past few years. Learning and applying the lessons of this widespread policy failure is the first priority both globally and nationally, and none of us can be certain we are there yet, as the chastening news from Ireland today reminds us.
In the UK, we look increasingly to the global labour market for rare and valuable skills. Overall, our own education system focuses insufficiently on the need to arm individuals and to provide the UK economy with the skills needed at every level to power modern business. For decades, our high-level educational outcomes have lagged behind our competitors, and that needs to change. Moreover, overly rigid immigration rules will block the entry of vital skills and talent, and thus threaten our productivity even further. So too, amid the realities of the global economy which I daily live and breathe, will internationally uncompetitive tax regimes for individuals and corporations. High tax rates will not prompt an immediate exodus, but I have seen at the margin the impact they have, and it is adverse to our true national interests. I should declare my own interests as a director or shareholder of several companies operating both nationally and globally; these are listed in the register.
Other factors are reducing our productivity. The principles that underpin the UK’s planning regime are admirable, but the interminable length of many of our planning processes and the fact that there is no economic penalty for all those who can cause delay—often very considerable delay, and many of them from the public sector—is enormously value-destructive. Our economy is also handicapped by the worst transport infrastructure by far in the developed world. The individual who wrote in a recent business department paper that the UK has a “well developed infrastructure network” should be sent immediately to Holland, where I was last week, to compare, for instance, the superb Dutch road and airport infrastructure with the UK’s own. Perhaps the Chancellor, when next contemplating his admirable aims for promoting UK productivity might reflect, when travelling to his own constituency in the north-west on the M6, that it is Europe’s worst and most congested strategic route, and then remind himself of the trivial investment in current spending plans for improving our national road infrastructure.
In conclusion, if we are ever to bring productivity in the UK up to world standards, the Government will need to roll up their sleeves and focus on getting the big things right, on addressing the stubborn, difficult and often politically unappealing challenges that have long held back and still hold back the UK economy from fulfilling its true potential.
Lord Layard
My Lords, long-term growth depends on the accumulation of capital. I want to make just one point about each type of capital: human capital, physical capital and social capital. Human capital is of course much the most important as it accounts for over half of the value-added in our economy. As a country we do quite well at the production of human capital in our universities and sixth forms. We have a good and well understood system. But we have absolutely no well understood system for producing skills for the other half of the population. It is an area of scandalous neglect which has persisted for many decades.
Eventually, the previous Government produced what I consider to be the central solution, which is to ensure that everyone who wants it can have access to an apprenticeship. This was established as an entitlement in the Act passed in 2009. Anyone with five passes of any kind at GCSE would be entitled to an apprenticeship place. As a result, every 14 year-old would be just as likely to see a way forward if he wanted to go down the apprenticeship route as he would if he took the sixth form route. This was to happen by 2013 and in my view it was the single most important policy for growth that was introduced in the previous Parliament. But, incredibly, the present Government’s Education Bill, if it is passed, will cancel this reform. Instead, the Government are offering 12,500 extra places a year for unemployed youngsters. One wonders at their thinking. How can it make sense to wait for a person to become unemployed before they can get a proper education? We have got into an extraordinary frame of mind in this country. For that group of people we have stop-gap measures and programmes. We want a proper system for the half of our population whose talents we have failed to develop to enable them to become skilled and have a proper stake in our community. Will the Government please let the reform in the 2009 Act stand? They did not oppose it before, and surely the need is even more obvious now.
I turn to physical capital. What we need are incentives to invest, which means good prospects for growth and financial inducements for the creation of new capital. But instead the Government are spending money on cutting corporation tax, which mainly provides a windfall gain for existing capital. If we had time-limited tax allowances for new capital creation, that would be of benefit in the long term and bring forward the recovery.
Finally, social capital is a much neglected asset of ours, but it is crucial to the mobilisation of our human potential. Social capital is what the big society is all about, so I find it difficult to understand why we are seeing the destruction of so much social capital at this time. Every day we hear of people in the third sector being laid off. They are often people who have been mobilising the assets of dozens of volunteers. We learn from the National Council for Voluntary Organisations that the charitable sector is annually going to be losing at least £3 billion of state funding. If the Government do not want to shoot their big society programme in the foot, these cuts should surely be the first ones to reverse.
Lord Flight
My Lords, first, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, on initiating what I think has been a very constructive debate. I also congratulate all the maiden speakers on their excellent contributions. I feel passionately that this country should do better. I am a lover of its history and I observe what has happened in the past: how self-help, a strong work ethic and a dissenting culture got industry and commerce going in this country. We have had interesting contributions today from the noble Lords, Lord Kestenbaum and Lord Popat, on the importance of the entrepreneurs from the immigrant communities. In the past, it would have been Huguenots and others.
I do not think that there is perhaps such agreement on the conditions that are likely to see us doing much better and that saw us doing so well in the past. I am no apologist for it, but I think that they are essentially to be found in capitalism. I have lived and worked in Hong Kong and I have been a great follower and lover of India. I observe how both of them, India latterly, have done so incredibly well. Living standards in Hong Kong are now much higher than here as the result of a much more open capitalist economy where entrepreneurs can prosper. In my textbook, if the public sector is much more than 40 per cent, you are heading for trouble, and in my textbook, if small businesses are tied down by too many regulations, they will not prosper. I was particularly interested in the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, about Brick Lane. Indeed, that is exactly the sort of entrepreneurial new area colony we want to see. I am glad it has happened, but I think it has more to do with good luck than a perfect environment.
I do not believe that any government-contrived go-for-growth policy will work. The Heath Government tried it and it ended in disaster. Governments can make the right environment for the economy to do better, and this Government are doing pretty well at it, but there are no government quick fixes.
Productivity growth in the past decade fell by 25 per cent, from 2 per cent to 1.5 per cent per annum. I regret to comment that it was very obviously the result of the overexpansion of, and negative growth in, the public sector. The poor old private sector was having to run faster and faster and was being squeezed by resources going to the public sector. The coalition Government have got things pretty well right. On the whole macro issue of keeping our credit-worthiness, they have succeeded. I would have liked there to have been no increases in tax—if anything, tax cuts—and more radical sorting-out and reform of the public sector. I return to my main point: you will not get the economy going if you go round putting up taxes too much.
However, the trends do not look too bad. Corporate profitability was up 37 per cent last year—admittedly, on a terrible previous year—and it was remarkable that 420 jobs were created in the private sector in a year that none of us thought was particularly encouraging. It is clear that we are set for exports and capital investment to lead growth and for, I hope, an economy that will have a higher savings and investment basis to support it.
I want particularly to rebut what I am afraid I view as rather Luddite and misguided economic attacks on the financial services sector. The main criticism is of two individuals whose reckless behaviour led two major banks into bankruptcy and to a failure of monetary policy—for which the Bank of England was responsible —and of regulatory policy. But banks are not the whole financial services sector by miles. It is surely appropriate that a mature economy such as the UK should have a large amount of activity in that sector—I might add that it is a great deal larger in Hong Kong. The biggest bank in the world, HSBC, came through it all without any trouble and any need for public sector or taxpayer support.
Let us remember that that industry generates some £100 billion of exports, some 1 million jobs and £55-odd million of tax revenues, and that London contributes something like £50 billion a year to the rest of the economy. London has been the great success of this country.
Baroness Northover
I remind your Lordships that this is a time-limited debate and that when you hit four on the clock, you have had four minutes.
Lord Lea of Crondall
My Lords, I shall not surprise the House by saying that the analysis of the noble Lord, Lord Flight, is totally the opposite of mine. His is the ideological analysis that lies behind the present Government, a Government who are driving the economy to the wall. Perhaps he and I could have a bet on it.
The noble Lord compared us to Hong Kong. Hong Kong’s logic is effectively to be understood as part of China. It is an enterprise zone for the Chinese economy to some extent and it has a degree of inequality that even the noble Lord, Lord Flight, I assume, would not advocate for this country. The model set by our country with its history, as a northern European country playing a successful part, along with Germany, Holland, Sweden and others, in European society, is not one I hear spoken of as part of the ideology coming from the other side. In fact, the noble Lord’s speech could be summed up as: private sector productive; public sector unproductive. Are people in education not productive? Are people in health not productive? These are caricatures.
I recognise that a question has to be put to the Labour Party and people such as me: what is the alternative? To the wonderful march on Saturday, in which 500,000 people took part, the Government’s response was that we did not put forward an alternative. I do not think that putting a sticking plaster on the present arrangements is the solution, whether it be the operation of the auditors—a mutual admiration society as analysed in our own Economic Affairs Select Committee report published yesterday—or typical boards of directors or the merchant banks. As was pointed out by my noble friend Lord Eatwell the other day, boards of directors in this country do not represent anybody apart from themselves. The churning of shares means that the idea that shareholders are in some meaningful sense the people to whom the board is accountable is fanciful. That the boards’ remuneration committees have pushed up directors’ salaries such that the gap between their pay and that of the average worker is 10 times greater than it was 20 years ago is a scandal. In my view, it is based on fraud in some cases and a lot of these people ought to be locked up. So mine is not exactly the same line of thought as that of the noble Lord, Lord Flight.
In the middle of all this, what is it that Britain is lacking in the four cylinders of its motor car engine firing at the moment? Let us look at the way in which the German economy operates, with its supervisory boards—which I advocate for this country. Let us take a fundamental look at the Victorian company law which we operate even now, more than 150 years since it was written; it is essentially the same. I offer an anecdote. A CEO of a company in this country went to Sweden and the first question put to him was: “How is this takeover, if it goes through, going to help our world market share?” That is not the experience of board members in this country. They are part of a cabal, answerable only to themselves.
Lord Mawson
My Lords, the sector that is always neglected when politicians and civil servants look at growth strategies is the faith community. On 22 February last year, I led a debate in your Lordships' House that explored the future use of nearly 50,000 church buildings standing in the middle of virtually every community in the United Kingdom. Building on this debate, on 25 March last week I hosted a national conference at Gorton Monastery in Manchester where the noble Lord, Lord Wei, spoke about the big society. Here, I must declare an interest as a director of the social enterprise, One Church, 100 Uses, which organised the event.
There are many church assets and resources in communities across this country that do not receive the recognition they deserve. At Trinity United Reformed Church in Gosforth, Newcastle, the congregation is leading a business improvement district bid built on the back of the work that has been done during the past decade reconfiguring three church buildings and establishing an enterprise hub which is now redefining the centre of the town. Today, this church is a major local employer.
Gorton Monastery, the conference venue, is today run as an enterprise specialising in banqueting, conferences, weddings and business bookings. Yet a decade ago, this was a cathedral-like building that stood derelict and desecrated. Following a £6.5 million restoration scheme, led by the social entrepreneur Elaine Griffiths and her team, the Monastery Trust, this formerly unused asset now sits alongside the Taj Mahal and the ancient ruins of Pompeii in having being listed among the 100 most endangered heritage sites in the world.
Another national example is the Bromley by Bow Centre in east London, which I founded—I must therefore declare an interest. It grew out of a local church congregation of 12 elderly people. It now has 31 established businesses and has an active business partnership with the multinational company G4S and other leading corporates. Together, they create innovative solutions, based on business principles, for some of our most challenging social issues. Is not the big society about businesses and social entrepreneurs working together?
However, while I am delighted that many churches are embracing the idea of the big society, there are significant problems that will hinder their existence. We all know that the macro growth of the British economy depends on the success of thousands of small businesses like those I mentioned. These entrepreneurial cultures take time to build. To undermine them when they are starting to fly is not wise in the long term. The present financial cuts, made irrespective of local context, are threatening the additional unpublicised services that are deeply embedded in thriving entrepreneurial centres.
In East London, at the Bromley by Bow Centre, the CEO, a businessman by background with considerable financial skill, is struggling to shave more than £1 million from his budget because of the scale of the cuts that the organisation faces. He is losing vital services. Despite the rhetoric from the Government, social enterprises are often being disproportionately disadvantaged by the cuts when resources are allocated from central pots and from local authorities.
I suggest that the big society depends on micro businesses as exemplars to lead the way. I therefore request that the Minister actively explores practical ways to identify, promote and foster economic growth within this emerging entrepreneurial sector across the UK. Much of it is based in some of our most challenging communities. The social sector is formed from many shoots and distinctions need to be drawn to protect these young entrepreneurial flowers. Will the Minister please inform the House how the Government plan to empower social enterprises in some of our most challenged communities?
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, it is a delight to follow that constructive contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Mawson. It was partially trailed by my noble friend Lord Layard, who indicated this aspect of social capital is something to which the Government should pay attention with the concept of the big society. I hope that the Minister will address himself to that point. Of course, these contributions are a reflection of the fact that we all owe an enormous debt to my noble friend Lord Hollick for choosing this as a subject for debate today. It has given the House an opportunity to be constructive and thoughtful about positions for the future in circumstances where we all appreciate that the country faces tough times ahead. It is important that we are able to chart the routes to the future which promote the well-being of our society. Typically, my noble friend Lord Hollick indicated in his speech potential areas of entrepreneurial growth to which I hope the Minister will respond.
Also in the debate, we had five maiden speeches in which all noble Lords rose to a significant challenge today. They had to express, as we all feel, the privilege of being Members of this House and of having the opportunity to address your Lordships. They wanted to make sure that they made their constructive contributions to this serious and important debate today, and they had to do all that in four minutes. I hope that the House will be more generous to all those noble Lords in future when they make their contributions, but I congratulate them all today on the way in which they presented themselves to the House. We all look forward to hearing from them in the very near future; at greater length, I hope.
As my noble friend Lord Haskel indicated, this is the third economic debate we have had on successive Thursdays. In past weeks, we have somewhat aired our differences of perspective on economic policy. An element of that inevitably underpinned this debate. It was brought to the fore by the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, and supported by my noble friend Lord McFall who indicated another perspective that is different from the Government’s—a perspective showing that the Government are taking great risks with the economy and the welfare of our society. Her Majesty's Opposition have been articulate in identifying an alternative route, of which the outstanding feature is that the Government are bent on reducing the deficit within the minimum period of time—a single Parliament. In doing so, they are asking the country to be subjected to cuts that will affect the well-being of large sections of the community. But those cuts also affect the growth potential of the economy.
In this debate, noble Lords have identified where these cuts may do harm to the important, long-term economic development aspects of public investment. I know that the Government stress only the private at the present time. None of us doubts the importance of the private sector in terms of growth, but one cannot set at nought the public sector. Nor can one cut it without engaging on a strategy of some risk.
As a number of noble Lords identified, our education sector will be under great pressure. Our universities will be significantly starved of public resources and will have to depend on the free market in terms of the response of students. We do not know whether that will lead to a reduction in resources for the universities because students are unable or unwilling to pay, and we do not know the impact on recruitment. However, we do know that when these reductions take place the impact on research in our country, and on the development of a great deal of the fundamental basis on which creative activities can take place in the economy, may be seriously hurt.
In particular, it seems that we are the only country engaged on cutting the science budget, while all other countries regard it as an essential investment. We have a significant contribution to make in science and have a prime position in terms of our world role. However, we must be careful about the danger of losing that position as a result of the Government’s strategy.
It was indicated in the debate that we should not underestimate the creative sector, which is an important growth area of our economy. It was referred to by my noble friend Lord Kestenbaum. Creative activity and the genius of British people, which is translated into effective and constructive activity in the media and the whole world of the creative arts, is a growing part of our economy not to be underestimated. It is now approaching 10 per cent of the economy. It depends on training, essential skills and the colleges providing skilled manpower.
As my noble friend Lord Layard emphasised, whatever the difficulties with regard to higher education, we should be extremely concerned that this continues to be a society that undertrains and undereducates a substantial section of the population. That is why the Government’s contribution with regard to the modest number of places in apprenticeships and training schemes is a minute dimension of the need that is required to ensure that we have a population sufficiently skilled to make a contribution to our society and earn their living in this world. Cutbacks in that sector—and colleges are suffering very substantial cutbacks—and the loss of the guarantee to which my noble friend Lord Layard made reference is a very serious blow.
Another dimension of this, our transport infrastructure, was introduced by my noble friend Lord Soley and the noble Lord, Lord Birt. I give due credit to the Government with regard to rail investment and the fact that crucial areas of it are being sustained. But my noble friend Lord Soley is absolutely right when he says that there does not appear to be a concept of an aviation policy when aviation is bound to play a very significant role in the economy. The noble Lord, Lord Birt, also, identified our difficulties with regard to road.
Another dimension on which I give the Government credit is the Green Deal. They are continuing policies which the previous Government adumbrated, but we are looking forward to the whole development of house insulation and improvement with regard to conservation of energy in the home. The Government deserve credit for their commitment in that area. But as my noble friend Lady Worthington indicated, it is not so certain that the commitment to the green bank and the whole environment development is so secure.
There are tough times ahead. We all recognise that the nation has got to identify areas of potential growth. But I emphasise this one other dimension, which my noble friend Lord Wood introduced into his all-too-brief speech, when he reflected on the concept of fairness. If we are all in this together, there must be some concept of fairness across society. It will not do that the Government rely upon the failed Project Merlin for their temporising with regard to the banks and their pathetic gestures towards seeing the banks make some reparation and take some responsibility for the disasters of the past, while pursuing policies with regard to social cutbacks which hit so adversely the least well-off in our society.
I am grateful that today we have moved from a position of significant division to one in which there have been some very constructive proposals on growth. I hope the Minister will be able to give us encouragement that he intends to pursue the majority of them.
The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)
My Lords, we have had a tremendously interesting and wide-ranging debate today. I thank all noble Lords who have contributed, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, for securing what is in effect, I suppose, part two of our growth/Budget debate. I recognise what the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, kindly said about the endurance of the Minister who has to sit here, but I note that many other noble Lords have sat here throughout. I am only grateful to at least have a week between the two debates rather than have it on two consecutive days.
I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham. It has been an overwhelmingly constructive debate, in which many positive ideas have come from all round the House, and this presents me with an additional challenge today. Last week I attempted, maybe foolhardily, to make some mention of all noble Lords’ contributions to that debate. But I know my limitations. Today, with even more speakers and an even shorter time to respond, I apologise in advance but I am not going to be able to make mention of everyone who spoke. There were lots of good ideas, not all of them workable, but it is right that you should push the envelope in imaginative ways, whether in the use of faith buildings or encouraging science in schools. There are all sorts of great ideas coming from around the House, and I will make sure that those are considered by the Treasury or the other departments responsible.
In general, the message I take away is very welcome, because I know that the temptation is for us all, or for a lot of us, to be making political points. The message that I take away is that there are many good things in the Budget and in the growth document that went with it, but that we have to work harder—I understand that—and consider lots more of the ideas that are coming up. In the phrase of the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, it is a worthy and promising start. I appreciate that. I take to heart the big challenges for us—that we must be bold and not timid as a Government. I agree, and I will come back to that. We must always remember the big picture. I agree with that. We have to live up to the challenge of the Government’s part of the bargain of delivering and not just making promises. I will come back to each of those themes in a minute.
I start by acknowledging the five excellent maiden speeches that we have heard today—from the noble Lords, Lord Kestenbaum, Lord Wood of Anfield and Lord Collins of Highbury, my noble friend Lord Popat, and of course the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, who has confused me by moving seat. I am glad to see that she is back in the Chamber. There was a common and very important theme in those speeches, some of it put very movingly, about what this country and this House have done to foster diversity, whether of ethnicity, faith, gender or sexual orientation. Of course, we must not forget that diversity in hair colour is also a feature of life. The maiden speakers also, by their diverse backgrounds in business, academia, the unions and the environment, and by the quality of the individual speeches, could make no better case for this making a genuinely value-adding House that we are all part of. That was a great addition to what was, in any case, a very important debate.
I remind noble Lords of the context of this year’s Budget and growth plan. The Budget is about reforming the nation’s economy so that we have sustainable growth and jobs in the future. “Sustainable” is a word that has been used by a number of noble Lords. It is worth very briefly reminding ourselves, as a number of speakers have done, that this will not be possible without sticking to our deficit reduction plan. My noble friend Lord Higgins was the first to point out the constraints within which we live. It is that plan that has secured the economic stability, the international credit rating and the low interest rates that are the platform from which we must go forward with sustainable growth.
Last week’s Budget was built on clear economic principles of sound public finances—and no wavering on that—but support for private sector growth, reward for work, help with the pressure of high fuel prices in the short term and a new vision for growth. That vision for growth has four key ambitions at its heart: that Britain should have the most competitive tax system in the G20; that Britain should be the best place in Europe to start, finance and grow a business; that Britain should be a more balanced economy by encouraging exports and investment; and that Britain should have a more educated workforce that is the most flexible in Europe. Those noble Lords who had the stamina to be here during last week’s debate as well will know that I went through each of these four areas thematically. But let me today take a slightly different cut through the issues, prompted very much by the challenge of the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, that we must be bold and that timidity is not enough. That is linked to the challenge from a number of noble Lords that we must attend to the big picture.
Let me suggest to your Lordships a number of areas in which I believe we are being bold and addressing the big-picture issues. Take corporation tax: the fact that we are heading, in three years from now, down to a corporation tax headline rate of 23 per cent, which will take us to the lowest rate in the G7 and one of the lowest in the G20. I suggest that that sends the clearest signal possible around the world that this country is again open and welcoming to all businesses to come and base significant global operations here.
Deregulation is a difficult, challenging topic which the previous Government worked hard on but we have to find new ways of tackling it credibly. Again, we will be bold so we are starting right now with a new initiative to put tens of thousands of individual regulations on to a public website. Two weeks at a time, chunks of regulation related to a specific part of the economy will be open to challenge. At the end of the period of public challenge, it will be up to the departments concerned to argue why any regulations which have been challenged by the public must stay in place. The presumption of the committee led by my right honourable friend the Business Secretary will be that if people identify a regulation that has to go, it has to go unless there is an overriding reason for it to stay. I suggest that is bold.
Planning is a critical issue for growth in this country, and we will bring out some draft new planning guidelines within the next few months. They will have in them a fundamental new approach which has, at its heart, a presumption in favour of sustainable development. In addition, the new planning rules must have a process in place where the entirety of planning, including appeals, has to be finished in no more than 12 months. For those of your Lordships who have businesses stuck in planning processes that go on for three or four years, I suggest that is a bold approach.
A number of speakers brought up the field of energy and the question of setting a carbon floor price was raised. I suggest that setting a carbon floor price is a bold, difficult but necessary part of underpinning the huge amount of new energy investment which this country needs, so we will not shy away from taking the difficult decisions.
We have heard a lot about education—
Lord Davies of Stamford
Will the Minister not acknowledge that although setting a carbon price might be very desirable if it was based on international agreement, if it is based on a purely unilateral or national move we shall be handicapping our industry and our growth, and contributing nothing at all to the reduction of global warming?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I do not wish to be discourteous to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, but if I am to do justice to at least some of the points that have been raised in the debate so far, he will perhaps forgive me if I do not answer his question in intervention. I would rather do justice to some of the points made in the debate.
On education and bringing people into the workforce, I could mention a number of initiatives but let me just draw attention to the apprenticeships. Those are one key plank of what has to be a bold transformation of young people’s appreciation of the different and valuable routes into work. The total number of apprenticeships that will be available over the next four years is 1.1 million, so the Government are playing their part in making the apprenticeships available. I hope that, as my noble friend Lord Newby has said, business will rise to the challenge of taking up those places. Again, these are big-picture issues and this is, I suggest, a bold approach.
Lastly, there has been mention from a number of angles of the challenge to get finance into our corporate sector, whether SMEs or the whole of industry. We have set the banks the challenge now, through the deal that we have done with them, whereby they have agreed to make up to £190 billion of credit available for new loans, and more if it is necessary. That very significant amount of money should meet the reasonable demands of growing businesses in this country. When the banks are under considerable pressure to manage their balance sheets more prudently under new capital and liquidity rules, I suggest again that getting financing through to businesses is one of the big-picture challenges and that we as a Government are rising to that challenge in a suitably bold way.
Another big-picture theme that has come up a number of times and which deserves particular recognition is that of infrastructure because, again, the size of the challenge is enormous. A number of speakers raised this, the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, first, with the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, and others following after. We have identified £200 billion of infrastructure investment as being required over the next five years in economic infrastructure alone: in energy, water, broadband, transport and so on. The reason that this is so important is clear. We have an ageing infrastructure which needs considerable refreshment and rebuilding and because of that, at the very start of the Government’s work on our growth plans last autumn, we put out the first ever National Infrastructure Plan. That is starting to identify, sector by sector, the vision that we have for the infrastructure that is necessary for this country over the next 25 years and more.
We committed in the growth programme and the Budget to coming up with a rolling forward programme of infrastructure projects, so that we can start to give much greater certainty than there has been to the construction and financing industry in this country. If we expect businesses and financiers to take the strain, which they will do on 60 to 70 per cent of that £200 billion of infrastructure, we need to give them some clarity about where these programmes will be directed, so that is what we will do.
In answer to the specific challenge from the noble Lord, Lord Soley—although he knows this well—it is worth restating that, yes, aviation policy is very important. That is why my right honourable friend the Transport Secretary took time to work up a consultation paper that was published yesterday. I acknowledge that it may not meet the aspirations of all interests in the aviation sector but it is the start of a critical debate. I acknowledge that that debate must be had: that is why the consultation paper has gone out on aviation policy, which is one critical component. Alongside that, I acknowledge the references that were made to our commitment as a Government to high-speed rail. We must look at transport within a holistic and complete picture.
In this general area, there were also a number of references to the desirability of a green investment bank, a national investment bank or an infrastructure bank; your Lordships expressed it in a number of ways. I entirely understand the ambitions of the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky—the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, made this point as well—but without going into the technical details of PSBRs and how government accounting works, the first thing to say is that having a very large national investment or infrastructure bank is simply not possible given the constraints that we have on the Government’s balance sheet. However one looks at it, this would score against the national borrowing. Even if the case were made, and there are strong proponents on both sides of the argument about how big a green or a national investment bank is required, we have to be realistic about the constraints of the public balance sheet.
Within that, we announced last week in the Budget that we have brought forward by one year the starting date for the operation of the green investment bank to 2012-13. I do not want to make political points, but this Government for the first time have committed the money—£3 billion. That is a good start. We have committed money to this project in a way that there was previously a lot of talk about over the past few years. The bank will be able to leverage in private sector money so, even though in the first couple of years of its operation it will not be able to have its own borrowing, the leveraging effect of the green investment bank, by working with private sector investors, will be materially important to the more challenging investment schemes that must be introduced in the areas of new energy and new technology.
That is to address a few of the specific points made. I end by drawing attention to one or two of the reasons to be positive, which are very welcome. Yes, there are huge challenges, but the noble Lord, Lord Rees of Ludlow, reminded us about the latest Nobel prize-winning team, working with graphene, that has been based in this country and the need to exploit that; the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, talked about Silicon Roundabout with great passion and the way that that will translate through the Olympic legacy and Tech City into something that is really lasting; my noble friend Lord Flight talked about the 428,000 jobs that were created in the private sector last year; the noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, talked about our great strengths growing again in manufacturing and exports; and my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft gave us a specific example in the design and textile world of what we can do.
This has been a wide-ranging debate. I take from it a great challenge to Government, which I assure noble Lords the Government are committed to driving through. I also take away some great strengths that we have to work on. The Government are putting our economy back on the right path. We are supporting and will support enterprise, and we are driving innovation. We are doing our part as a Government to invest in skills, jobs and infrastructure. The Budget stands firm on our plan for the recovery; it is a plan that is good for business and good for growth and will help to create the prosperous economy that the people of Britain deserve.
Lord Hollick
My Lords, this has been an excellent debate. I thank every speaker for the informed and constructive way in which it was conducted. There were many excellent ideas and there have been five outstanding maiden speeches, which give us a glimpse of the formidable contribution that our new colleagues are going to bring to our debates.
The Minister has not had the opportunity or the time to go through each and every one of the suggestions that was made. Perhaps he will find an opportunity in future to do that, and perhaps he will take up the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, of having a meeting in the Moses Room to discuss some of these things. The contribution that has been made today is worthy of continuing discussion and serious consideration by the Government. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
NHS: Standards of Care and Commissioning
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Turnberg
To call attention to standards of care and the commissioning of services in the National Health Service; and to move for papers.
Lord Turnberg
My Lords, I am delighted to have this opportunity of opening this debate. I am pleased that so many noble Lords are remaining in the Chamber and are going to contribute. I look forward to hearing what they have to say.
I shall focus my remarks on recent reports of failures in standards of care, particularly for the elderly, but this is also a good opportunity to examine whether the commissioning arrangements proposed in the new Bill will have a positive or a negative effect on standards of care. Perhaps, too, we should look at how the Bill might be used to make things better.
I am someone who has spent most of his life working in the NHS and I bow to no one in my support and admiration of what it achieves. I see enormous advances being made every year, and patients who would no doubt have died are now cured and surviving into old age. Medicine has been transformed out of all recognition during my working life.
It is because I have this pride and huge admiration of the NHS and the people who work in it that I now feel a deep sense of shame. Despite these wonderful advances, in too many places we have been ignoring the common decency needed to care for the vulnerable, the sick and the elderly—and it is the elderly who are often the most vulnerable. As Ann Abraham, the Health Service Ombudsman, said in her report, there is a,
“gulf between the principles and values of the NHS Constitution and the felt reality of being an older person in the care of the NHS in England”.
That is why I am going to focus on the elderly, but they are not the only group where standards have slipped. I suspect that other noble Lords may speak about the mentally ill, and only the other day we had a report about failures in maternity services.
Of course, the media are quick to pick up the seemingly occasional horror stories of neglect in a hospital. You might want to hide behind the idea that these are rare incidents against a background in which 1 million people are looked after perfectly well in our hospitals and nursing homes every 36 hours, and that is absolutely true. But it turns out that it is not a rare or unusual event. It seems to be happening far too often, and stories of neglect are just too common for comfort: patients, usually in a geriatric ward, unable to eat the food left out of reach at the end of the bed and collected by staff seemingly unaware that it has not been touched, and too busy to notice that a thirsty patient is unable to even drink without help—or, worse, too busy to notice that a helpless patient, unable to get out of bed and incontinent, is sitting in damp sheets for hours or, the final degradation, soiled by faeces and unwashed for days.
Noble Lords might ask whether I exaggerate. Where is the evidence that this picture is not just a rare, occasional lapse in an otherwise acceptable system of care? Well, quite apart from the rather common anecdotes of many with elderly relatives, there is now the report of the ombudsman in which she describes 10 examples of the complaints she receives that emphasise just how bad it can get.
We cannot say that we have not been warned. In 1997 we had the report from Age Concern in its “Dignity on the Ward” campaign, describing failing standards of care. When it followed that up 10 years later, in 2007, it found that little or nothing had changed. The Commission for Health Improvement in 2003, the Healthcare Commission in 2007 and the Care Quality Commission in 2010, despite regularly changing their names, came up with the same message. Now there is the book that has just been published, Michael Mandelstam’s How We Treat the Sick, which brings all this together in a devastating way.
The scandal at the Mid Staffordshire hospital of a year or so ago turns out not to be an isolated example. Every time we have a disastrous fall in standards we have another report or inquiry. I will not list all the hospitals or nursing homes that have been the subject of criticism but they range from Cornwall to Rotherham, from Tameside to Southampton and from Oxford to Bolton. There are just too many, and it is clearly not a new phenomenon. It went on under the past Government and the one before that, so I do not want to make any political points here. But how can we have tolerated this neglect of our most vulnerable citizens for so long? No one can afford to be sanguine—not the doctors, not the nurses, not the managers and not the Government. I want to say a few words about why and how this is happening and suggest what we might do about it, because we certainly cannot allow it to go on.
Let me apologise for starting with the nurses, for whom I have the greatest admiration and to whom I owe a great deal of personal gratitude. However, at the end of the day, it is the nurses who patients look to first for their personal care and empathy. It is always tempting to look back to a golden age that never was, but one thing that is clearly fixed in my mind is how high the standards of nursing care were on the medical wards where I worked in the 1950s and 1960s. Those were the days when the sister in charge of her ward really was in charge. She was usually a mature woman in a career job who made absolutely certain that everything ran efficiently and well. I admit to running scared of her; as, indeed, did the patients.
However, those were the days before the revolutions in nurse management and nursing education. One of the unintended consequences of the upward drive to better educated nurses with university degrees has been the development of a generation whose aspirations are set high. They quite reasonably expect to have a career in which they can practise their skills to a high standard. Who can blame them? They do a great job with all the caring attitudes you can wish for. However, that has left a gap at the more basic and, to many, less attractive level of the general and geriatric ward where there is greater emphasis on the basic needs of patients: feeding, washing, help with movement, going to the toilet and so on.
Those are the wards where staffing levels are often lower per patient in the belief that they do not need the more intensive, one-to-one care of the specialist units. So they are often understaffed and sometimes come to rely on temporary, or “bank”, staff, who constantly change. Continuity of care is damaged as patients, already a little disorientated by being removed from their familiar environment, are faced with a bewildering series of new faces.
It is not only the nurses who are constantly changing. Confusion is compounded by the way the rotas for the ward doctors are arranged to fit in with the European working time directive or as they rotate through yet another experience to chalk up on their training programme. So there are new faces at every turn. These wards do not have the champions that the specialised departments have, who can put pressure on management to protect them from cuts. Not much wonder that nurses in training pass through those experiences quickly on their way to higher things. Nursing sisters in charge may not stay long enough to be able to stamp their authority and, in any case, are distracted by paperwork or, nowadays, putting stuff into their computers—care plans and the like.
I fear that these changes have created a situation in which we have two starkly different standards of care. On the one hand we have highly trained, highly professional and caring nurses in well staffed specialised units—intensive care, coronary care, chemotherapy units and the like—and, on the other hand, poorly staffed wards, rushed nurses, falling morale, falling standards and poor supervision. These are the staff who are struggling to cope with patients whose vulnerability makes enormous demands for the care and attention that the nurses have neither the time nor the patience for.
Of course, this picture is not true everywhere and many, probably most, wards and hospitals are very good indeed. It is just that this picture is too common for us to take any comfort from it.
So what is to be done? Here it is clear that there is a need for a multifocused set of actions which no one profession or body can shirk. First, we must have someone at ward level who takes full responsibility for ensuring that patients are properly looked after with the respect and dignity that they deserve. That is absolutely key. I hope that my nursing friends will forgive me for saying that we should be making this job, the ward sister or charge nurse, a career post and rewarding those who do it accordingly.
Lord Turnberg
My Lords, there has to be some continuity in that post to make it an attractive alternative to the lofty pastures of the specialised departments.
Then there is the issue of too few carers on the wards. What happened to all those state-enrolled nurses—SENs—whose roles were predominantly in the caring world and who did not aspire to higher degrees? They disappeared in project 2000. Is it possible for us to resurrect the SEN grade and make it attractive again? I hope that some thought can be given to that.
That leads me to the medical profession, who cannot absolve themselves—ourselves—from responsibility for the neglect we are now discussing. They, after all, must see the way their patients are being cared for and, I am afraid, have not raised their voices loud enough. They should be leading the charge for proper staffing levels on their wards. They should be pressing hard on the managers of their hospitals. Of course, they really must do something about these disruptive rotas that are destroying the continuity of care that patients need and deserve.
The managers must make themselves much more aware of their responsibility to ensure that there are sufficient staff on these wards to cope with what is one of the most demanding areas of a hospital. They should know that these wards cannot be among the first, for example, to take cuts. Then there are the responsibilities of the trust boards. Board members have to be rather more hands-on and need to know what is going on in their wards. Many obviously do, but it seems that there are too many who do not.
Finally, I come to those bodies who will be commissioning services in the bright new tomorrow, the GP consortia, and the responsibilities that we should be placing on them for standards of care in the NHS, under the Health and Social Care Bill coming through the House—in whatever form that Bill survives. To paraphrase Aneurin Bevan, there are bed pans clanging on the floor all over the country and, in the rush to devolution to the local level, important though that is, devolved responsibility must also mean some central accountability.
As these services are commissioned, we must make sure that the Bill places a duty on the GP consortia to make sure that high standards of care for the elderly, at least, are a contractual obligation on the providers. Furthermore, we must have a robust system of monitoring so that we can have some confidence that this care is actually being provided. Perhaps the proposed commissioning board can take this on, but only if it has the capacity to monitor what is going on in hospitals and nursing homes, and has a mechanism for action when standards slip.
We have been through too many years in which we have seen indifference punctuated by intermittent reports and wringing of hands. It has to stop. The time for action is now.
Viscount Bridgeman
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, on his timely and most important contribution. We have benefited from his immense and distinguished experience.
The Health and Social Care Bill represents a once in a lifetime opportunity. However, we must not forget that it is built on, and expands in much greater depth, the fundholder initiatives that existed in the National Health Service between 1991 and 1997, when they were stopped in their tracks by the then Secretary of State. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, that that is the last political point I shall make. There were, however, some welcome initiatives introduced by the previous Government, of which two were the creation of foundation hospitals and the introduction of practice-based commissioning groups.
The current reforms under the leadership of my right honourable friend Andrew Lansley seek to build on the reforms of the 1990s and the more recent ones of the previous Government and to capture the advantages and discard the disadvantages of both. At the heart of the Health and Social Care Bill lies the increased emphasis on bringing the patient into the decision-making process, and many of the reforms flow from that. Like, I am sure, many speakers today, certainly the lay speakers, I have canvassed the views of a number of general practitioners and consultants. We can of course differ on the overall measure of enthusiasm for the reforms. However, I think it is fair to say that a substantial proportion of general practitioners welcome the proposed changes, while opinion among consultants is more evenly balanced, though here, among the younger age group, the reforms appear to be generally welcomed.
Among the general practitioners there is the age-old agony for the conscientious GP as to how much time he or she will be required to give up for the management of the consortium, at the expense of treating patients. The evidence from the early experiences of the pathfinder consortia shows that many able practitioners have come to terms with this issue and are able to adjust their professional lives around it—and the consortia are at the heart of these reforms. They will take the place of the primary care trusts. What, then, is the difference? The main difference, as I see it, is that the PCTs have seriously little clinical input. This, by contrast, will, I hope, be the strength of the consortia, which will be clinically led. These consortia, to which every general practice will have to belong, will have the resources to back up their constituent practices and will commission secondary care.
The document Liberating the NHS: Legislative Framework and Next Steps is, I suggest, a model of its kind. It is readable, positive and forward-looking. I wish to speak about one of the specific matters mentioned in it—the provision of specialist services. It is known that some disabled charities are concerned that some specialist low-volume and often expensive services which they use will be lost. The paper specifically provides for this by encouraging consortia to work together to share such services, and for these to be commissioned by the NHS Commissioning Board. This is but one example of the many relatively minor issues which have been addressed in the paper and demonstrates the flexibility of the proposed consortia structure.
Much has been made of pathways in the paper, and these are at the heart of the proposals in the relationship, initially, between the patient and his or her GP. If the patient cannot be treated within the practice, the GP will negotiate with medical colleagues in the consortium, who will in turn negotiate with the provider. Note the clinical input at every stage.
Time does not permit me to make anything but passing reference to the very welcome initiative proposed to combine many of the functions of healthcare and social services under the health and well-being boards. The point that the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, made about the care of the elderly is crucial to this combination. This is a very important and long overdue development.
I asked a GP who had given me considerable help in preparing for this debate whether there was any point that he would like me to make. He said without hesitation, “The NHS has for far too long tolerated poor performance by general practitioners”. I suggest that this is at the heart of these reforms.
Lord Alderdice
My Lords, we are all indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, for obtaining this debate. The only unfortunate thing is that he did not obtain more than two hours as that leaves us with relatively little time to discuss an issue about which many of us are extremely passionate. However, as an additional service to your Lordships' House, he introduced the debate with understanding, passion and compassion and identified some very real and long-standing problems in the NHS. I wish to pick up on those as they are of enormous importance.
As the noble Lord pointed out, over a considerable time there has been a deterioration in what I might describe as the culture of care. I say “care” rather than “treatment” because, as he rightly pointed out, specialist, high-quality, acute treatment is often of a very high standard indeed; but in areas such as the one closest to my heart—care of the mentally ill, whether in the community or in in-patient care of various kinds—or care of the elderly, as he rightly pointed out, that long-term care has often deteriorated because of cultural changes in the NHS itself. I shall explain what I mean by that.
As the service expanded and became more complex, there was an increasing and necessary focus on management. It became increasingly the case that those who progressed would move into management. The noble Lord referred to this. In most professions, such as social work, psychology and particularly nursing, if someone wanted to make progress, inevitably they moved out of direct clinical care. For the ambitious and capable young nurse, for example—although this state of affairs was not confined to nursing—to make progress in the profession meant focusing on training and development, to move out of direct clinical care and into management, rather than making clinical care a long-term career commitment.
For obvious reasons, this disadvantaged the concern and commitment of the ambitious and capable young nurse for clinical care; the culture was to move into management. Doctors moved in the other direction. They continued to focus on clinical care—even when they got into management, they rarely gave up care completely—but that meant that they were disadvantaged when they were good managers. They tended to let go not of the care side but of the management side, which increasingly became detached from medicine, so doctors became disenchanted with the whole process of management.
In their different ways, our different professions found that the domination of management in the service took us away to a management culture rather than to a professional culture of devotion and care, which is what our NHS ought to be about. It is that change that we need to find a way to reverse. This is the idea of the reforms that are proposed. They are not necessarily the same as the proposals that will come forward, and it will be your Lordships' responsibility to try to change things in such a way that the principles are best expounded in the legislation and ultimately in its implementation. The challenge is how we move to less management focus in care and to more clinical focus, and focus on the patient.
We must move to greater local accountability; greater clarity of governance; competition in quality of care and not in the price of care, because that will be set down in tariffs; and to ensuring that there is a greater integration and collaboration of the various groups involved—public, private, and charitable and non-governmental, which often produce good-quality niche care in various ways. If we can ensure that progress and do it together—I hope that the exercise will be collaborative rather than partisan in your Lordships' House—we will have something to look forward to despite the difficulties that the noble Lord pointed out.
Baroness Emerton
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, for raising this timely debate. Without doubt, corrective action is required to deal with these issues. They will not go away unless that happens. This fact is reflected in the 57 per cent increase on last year in referrals from the general public to the Nursing and Midwifery Council fitness to practice committee in the months of January and February this year. The total was 833—a dramatic increase.
On 3 March, I asked when the Government were going to respond to the report of the Prime Minister’s commission on nursing and midwifery, published in March 2010. I declare an interest: I am proud to say that I am a nurse and that I was on the commission. The Minister replied that he would check where the Government were on the formal reply. I raise this again as no response has been received and because a year was spent by 20 senior and distinguished nurses, midwives and health visitors looking at the problems that faced us.
Evidence was collected following meetings with the public, stakeholders and students, and left the commissioners in no doubt that a “care quake” was approaching—driven by healthcare trends, social changes, demographic changes, families outsourcing care, growing numbers of people with long-term conditions and the additional complex conditions resulting from the ageing process. The nursing professions are centre-stage to handle the care quake, but must be properly equipped and supplied to deliver truly compassionate care that is skilled, competent, values-based and that respects patients' dignity with clear, respectful communication to patients and relatives.
We gathered from extensive engagements with the public that they felt strongly that the public image of the nursing, midwifery and health-visiting professions is out of date and that a new story of nursing is needed. The clearest message was that the traditional image of the front-line sister or leader of a community nursing service should be restored to the former point of visible authority and clear leadership role, answering the cry, “Who is in charge?”, at front-line level.
The commissioners set to work to make recommendations for the largest single workforce in Europe. There are currently in excess of 625,000 nurses on the register. The NHS nursing and midwifery pay bill is £12 billion, with more than £l billion spent on pre-registration nursing and midwifery education. There is little research on the cost-effectiveness and cost-benefit of nursing-led services, and existing research is often ignored. A recent scoping review commissioned by the Nursing and Midwifery Council found that there were 300,000 healthcare support workers in the NHS that were unregistered, posing a potential risk to patient safety. Recently the Mid Staffordshire complaints officer stated in evidence to a public inquiry that the ratio of trained nurses to support workers had swung to 40 per cent trained and 60 per cent healthcare assistants over the period 2002 to 2009. That was a change to address the £10 million overspend in the trust.
The move to make nursing a degree-level profession by 2013 is an integral step in ensuring that registered nurses and midwives have an academic base to translate into high-level, quality compassionate care.
Of the nursing commission’s 20 recommendations, I wish briefly to highlight four. The commission said that the nursing, midwifery and health-visiting professions should deliver high-quality care and that leaders should accept full managerial and professional accountability for ensuring that the organisation provides high-quality, compassionate care. The boards should ensure that care champions strengthen the front-line managers—for example, sisters and charge nurses. There was a call for advanced practitioners and healthcare support workers to be regulated, protecting the title “nurse” and limiting its use to those on the NMC register. This would be equivalent to “enrolled nurse”, as has already been mentioned. Another recommendation was that nurses and midwives should contribute to health and well-being, reducing health inequalities.
I hope that Her Majesty’s Government will respond quickly and positively to the commission’s recommendations, which all go towards achieving an improved nursing profession that will meet the needs of the community with compassion and with respect for the elderly.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, perhaps I may remind noble Lords, as I did in the previous debate, that we have a very tight time limit in this debate. Therefore, when the Clock reaches “4”, noble Lords will have completed their allotted four minutes.
Baroness Sherlock
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Turnberg for securing this debate and I declare a non-pecuniary interest as the next chair of Chapel St, a charitable enterprise which delivers services in partnership with primary healthcare.
I should like to wave another report at the House. This one came out last week. It is from the King’s Fund and is called Improving the Quality of Care in General Practice. In fact, it begins where the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, left off, looking at variations in care. The report was the result of a major inquiry conducted over two years by an independent panel. The panel looked at general practice and found that most care is good, which is a relief, but it also found that there is a widespread variation in performance, as well as gaps in the quality of care delivered by general practice. The report is full of examples, which I commend to the House. It showed variations in the quality of prescribing, in the quality of diagnosis—for example, one-third of patients with stomach or oesophageal cancer who required urgent referral to hospital were given non-urgent referrals—and in the rate of referrals. The report also highlighted variations in the continuity and co-ordination of care. It showed some significant differences.
Almost as telling was the fact that it found a significant problem in accessing public information, particularly comparative data, on performance in general practice. When we consider the avalanche of data available for almost every other part of the health service, that is quite striking, and I should be interested in hearing the Government’s reaction.
I see that the noble Earl, Lord Howe, told the Health Service Journal last week that, in response to the report, the Government’s plans to move 80 per cent of the NHS commissioning budget to GP-led consortia will improve this situation. I am very keen to learn how, and perhaps the Minister will take the opportunity to explain it to the House. He may not want to go into detail today but I wonder whether I can encourage him to assure the House that he will engage with the King’s Fund, as well as with the Royal College of General Practitioners and the BMA. I was delighted to hear that they both welcome the report, so there is a fair wind behind it, but perhaps the Minister will engage with them in looking at how these problems can be tackled. Perhaps, in particular, I could encourage him to do so before this House starts to look in detail at the Health and Social Care Bill that will be coming before us.
For me, this report could be a metaphor for the state of the health service: most general practice is good; the NHS is good; popular satisfaction has never been higher; its efficiency is admired; but there are pockets of significant problems, as described by my noble friend Lord Turnberg. It is clear that performance and outcomes vary too much. We all want to see continuous improvement and we all are open to the idea of changing how healthcare is delivered. However, it is not at all obvious to me how the revolution in the health service, on which the Government are embarking, will necessarily solve these problems. Risks will inevitably be taken by such large-scale reform, so not just this House but the country needs to be persuaded that the changes will produce results that will solve the kind of problems that have been identified. I strongly encourage the Minister to look not just at the specific problems raised but to say why the Government think that their prescription will cure the ills. That is the challenge for all of us.
When I thought about what I would talk about today in my four marvellous minutes, I went back to a list of notes that I had made at the wonderful all-party seminars that many of us have attended with experts in the field, and I found a list of 20 questions to which I did not know the answer. It is not simply a list of questions that I cannot answer, as that would be a rather greater list, but a list of questions to which the experts at these seminars had been unable to find the answers after carefully reading the Bill and all the associated documentation. If that is the case, we have to question the wisdom of proceeding at the current pace. This House has enormous respect for the integrity and experience of the Minister. I wonder whether he could speak to his colleague the Secretary of State and encourage him to reflect on the fact that a wise man does not demolish his house while the architects are still sketching the new one.
Baroness Hollins
My Lords, I, too, am somewhat daunted about speaking about my interests in this debate in such a short time, but I am grateful for the opportunity. I note that the Care Quality Commission has just published its second annual report. Encouragingly, it talked about safer services and an upward trend in the standards of healthcare.
Noble Lords would expect me, as a former president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, to speak about people with mental illness and learning disabilities. I shall do that but I will focus on the physical health of people in that group and their access to acute hospital services. That relates to commissioning. Although I do not think that commissioning is the key to all the problems in the NHS, strong commissioning is important. At the moment, commissioning largely does not understand the needs of people with learning disabilities and mental illness, particularly when their needs are complex and they are seeking care in an acute hospital setting. I shall try to explain what I mean and will give two examples.
If we stop to think about maternity services—my noble friend Lord Patel may have a different view—we find that the most complex kind of maternity case is a mother with a severe mental illness. However, the current tariff does not cover the mental illness that that mother has and the obstetric department does not have to purchase mental health services to look after that mother. That is a real shame, as this is a good moment in a woman’s life to attend to her mental health needs and the mental health needs of her child. That is just one example.
The Bill sets out clearly the kind of duties that commissioners will have in the future and suggests that commissioners will need to seek advice, but what kind of advice is not clear. GPs will need to work closely with their clinical colleagues in different specialisms, particularly specialists in mental health, to ensure that their patients with mental illness get their ordinary, everyday healthcare needs supported and adequately met, and not just their specialist needs.
People who do not work in psychiatry often think that commissioning for mental illness or learning disabilities is about buying specialist services somewhere else and that it has nothing to do with the rest of the health system. That is just not true. There is no health without mental health and I am pleased that the Government’s policy on public health acknowledges that.
Because I have less than a minute, I shall turn only briefly to learning disability. Tom Clarke MP spoke in the other place yesterday about the NHS and public satisfaction. He spoke extremely eloquently and, since I do not have time to repeat all that he said, I encourage noble Lords to read Hansard. He talked about the long history of concern of Mencap and other bodies about the institutional discrimination that has been found in the NHS—not a culture of care but a culture of discrimination. The previous Secretary of State established an independent inquiry into healthcare for people with learning disabilities. It came up with some important recommendations, including recommendations for training all healthcare professionals. I would appreciate support from the Minister for such recommendations to be fully implemented when the new Bill comes in.
Lord Winston
My Lords, the points that I shall make are no criticism of the Government; indeed, they are not faults induced by them. If there have been faults, they have been those of healthcare professionals and the management of the health service. I hope that the noble Earl will be able to respond by saying how we can build in these suggestions. This is a strong echo of what the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, said. He spoke with nobility, dignity and humanity and his points were very well made.
Some weeks ago, I brought to the attention of the House my experience at a leading hospital, where I was faced with a woman in her postnatal period, four days after delivery, with a dangerously high, life-threatening blood pressure, which no one was dealing with—she had not seen a doctor in four days. There was no continuity of care on the ward. When I tried to speak to the nurses, they were busy at their computers and with their paperwork.
I want to talk about the loss of continuity of patient care in the hospital service. The noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, talked about halcyon days. Although we may not want to return to those days, the old-fashioned firm system in medical practice was very good: the idea of consultants working in tandem, usually two at a time with the same secretarial support, followed by a senior registrar, a registrar, house physicians and house surgeons, was a good way to ensure continuity. Nowadays, we do not even have the privilege of interviewing the staff who come on to the team. Because of political correctness, they are often appointed. That means that we lose a valuable kernel within the health service.
There used to be flexibility about time off. We did not go off when a patient was really sick. We had a detailed handover when we went off, if we had to. We would make sure that the person to whom we were handing over understood what was going on. We were still responsible, as junior doctors, when we were off, and would expect to be informed if critical decisions were being made about those whom we regarded as our patients. That ethos and that culture have been lost, partly because of the European working time directive, although that is not the only reason. The restrictions on working time, which we have previously encouraged the Government to think about, have had a massive negative effect not only on training and experience but on morale and continuity. A “watch the clock” attitude has been engendered.
There used to be general ward rounds for the whole team, at which the ward sister would be an important person, together with the general practitioners. Often, general practitioners came to the wards, which meant continuity in society afterwards. Nowadays, we do not have the same attitude towards the hospital in which we work. We have no hospital nurse, no medical porters and no dedicated bedrooms. There is no staff dining room. That may seem a ridiculous point, but the disadvantage is that, in terms of morale, we cannot replace the staff dining room, where we used to discuss individual patients with other consultants in order to learn. In science units, restaurants and coffee facilities are in every research lab, but they are no longer in hospitals. We should think about that. I have to say that I learnt my haute cuisine of Indian cooking in such messes. We felt valued members of an institution in a way that we do not now.
As the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, said, there is no leadership on the ward. Without ward sisters, individual nurses do not feel responsible for all the patients in their care on the ward. Doctors now normally do ward rounds without the sister present; indeed, it is difficult to find a nurse who is free.
I make one final point. Basic nursing has been lost: cleaning patients, caring for them, listening to them, trying to feed them occasionally. Yesterday, I met a paediatric nurse at one of the best nursing schools in the country. She said: “I got an A in hospital management and NHS management in my essays, but I cannot change a paediatric colostomy bag, and that really worries me”.
Baroness Benjamin
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for securing this debate. Sadly, his opening remarks reflect the treatment that my late 80 year-old father received during his last months, which were spent in hospital.
This debate gives me an opportunity to highlight the concerns of those with sickle cell disorder as well as of those working with and for patients with the disorder. I am a patron of the Sickle Cell Society, so I declare an interest. The Sickle Cell Society has a panel of expert medical advisers as well as a board that includes those who suffer from sickle cell disorder. Over the past 30 years, the charity has worked with the NHS and primary care trusts to produce best practice guidance on treatment and care based on clinical research and the experience of those with sickle cell disorder.
Sickle cell is the most common genetic blood disorder in the UK and some 300 babies are born with sickle cell each year. Yet children and adults are needlessly dying from this illness. The two most recent deaths were in the past four months—one as young as four years old. The deaths are due to poor access to services, poor care, poor treatment and generally poor awareness of the disorder. The National Confidential Inquiry into Patient Outcome and Death shows that of the 19 patients it studied who complained of pain on admission to hospital and who died in hospital, nine had been given excessive doses of medication, leading to death from the complications that resulted.
I believe that with the right policies in place and an understanding of best practice standards, treatment and medication, the quality of life for sickle cell patients can be dramatically improved. Will the Minister consider a medical and social awareness campaign, backed up by syllabus changes to medic training at royal colleges? Will he also consider commissioning services to improve the detection and chronic disease management of patients with sickle cell? I am convinced that if these measures were in place, it would save the NHS millions of pounds, prevent many deaths as a result of hospital overmedication and reduce children being absent from school, which produces poor educational performance that in the long term leads to economic disadvantage and benefits claims.
I believe that the doctor-patient relationship is a two-way dynamic. Some changes to the current system are required in terms of GP education, follow-up, and long-term involvement with the management of sickle cell disorder. Patients and healthcare providers should work together in the proactive management of sickle cell disorder, rather than dealing with crises on an unplanned basis as and when they arise.
The current financial state of the NHS and the recent spending review have increased the nervousness of sufferers. Therefore, there need to be reassurances about the funding of provision for sickle cell. Some believe that the abolition of health targets will have a negative impact and that services will not provide fairness and equality of access to healthcare services for all. Therefore, there needs to be NHS specialised services commissioning for those with sickle cell disorder, with provision for practical home-care support, especially home-from-hospital convalescent support to avoid readmission, the training and deployment of a pool of community support care workers, information and counselling to every patient and carrier in every locality, and the monitoring of performance against agreed outcome measures. I believe that the Sickle Cell Society is well placed to assist the Government in achieving these measures.
Sickle cell disorder should be of great concern to society. It needs our full attention because as more and more children are born to parents from different ethnic groups and we become more and more integrated, so the more common sickle cell disorder will become. Sickle cell disorder is now the fourth global public health priority, as declared by UNESCO and the World Health Organisation in Geneva in May 2006. Please let us accord it the priority and respect it deserves.
Baroness Murphy
My Lords, I shall hark back to much of what the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, said in his admirable introduction to this topic. The stories in the ombudsman’s report are so shockingly familiar to us, yet we still find it very difficult to take in that they reflect the norm. The National Confidential Inquiry into Patient Outcome and Death in surgery for elderly patients found that only 38 per cent got good care. It is not just that care is neglectful to the point of cruelty, but that families that try to intervene are actively discouraged and largely ignored and the denial by managers is a cultural norm. I found that I could not save my own mother-in-law from truly appalling care in a suburban London hospital, and my own mother’s recent care in a Midlands teaching hospital was pretty variable, too, depending on the team that was on duty.
I have heard people minimise the significance. Apparently the NHS has improved over the past few years and patients say that they are very satisfied with the care that they get. It may well have improved, but the very aged do not respond to these patient surveys, and in any case it is their distressed kith and kin we should be surveying to get an accurate picture. My mother would not let me complain because they fixed her hip, did they not? The Patients Association has been flagging up the truth for years and the majority of senior managers know that Mid Staffordshire Hospital was not an outlier on the graph by any means.
The usual response to a scandal is to launch an inquiry, and I have sat on many myself. Typically they make vast numbers of recommendations that are then translated into points for action with a monitoring schedule for ticking off the boxes. Schedules will be cascaded and all will get a bit better. There are marginal improvements locally, but nothing really changes. What is the answer? More inspection? I do not think so. The CQC knows that the self-monitored standards of dignity that hospitals claim to have reached are often a fiction. Inspection never picks up more than a snapshot. Unannounced visits are helpful, but they are too infrequent and superficial to be realistically helpful. Regulators simply cannot substitute for caring staff. More training that treating old people appallingly is wrong? I do not think so. We all know it is wrong, but we learn by example from our seniors. If that counts as training, then perhaps training is needed. More geriatricians and psychogeriatricians like me? We need champions in medicine and nursing—but no, this is every clinician's business, not a specialty.
I agree with many colleagues who have spoken before that getting the teamwork and ward processes right might help a bit. It is noteworthy that these episodes of poor care do not occur on specialist wards where unified teams work together under good leadership. We have tended to undermine teams on general wards in the misguided and counterproductive chase for efficient turnover. I harp back to Professor John Yates’s earlier studies, which show that it is vulnerable patient groups, local ward staff left to their own devices and staff not included in team support who fail.
My recipe comes back in part to unannounced regular inspections by HealthWatch and the regulator and to surveys of family carers. However, hospitals reflect the wider attitudes of society. We should look properly at the price of care, and we should stop commissioning specialties such as cardiac, cancer and renal at a higher tariff on the care price compared with medicine for the elderly and general surgery. The funding imbalance is profound and reflects the poor value which society puts on the everyday care of the most vulnerable. Therefore, the commissioning sensitivities that GP consortia will have will be crucial. We know from studies in the States that commissioning cannot be the whole answer; it is the providers who are important. However, we should not necessarily ignore commissioning. It is vital, but ultimately it is the care design in hospitals and structures that really count.
Lord Owen
The NHS is dear to us all, and the care and health professions have made a difference to pretty well every family in this country. However, the 353 pages of the Health and Social Care Bill are a massive reform, and we should not underrate the basic fatal flaws in this legislation, although of course there is much that we can all recommend and be pleased to see.
The health service is a rationed service. A lot of the acceptance of and satisfaction with that rationing has come from its democratic basis and the feeling that it is done in a democratic and acceptable way. That is challenged by the Bill and by a massive change in the responsibilities of the Secretary of State. The fatal flaw is to move on from the internal market—a reform introduced by successive political parties that was initially quite controversial but, I believe, has done a lot to encourage cost-effectiveness and efficiency in the health service—and to cross that threshold to an external market.
This Bill needs to be substantially amended, not just at Report stage in the other place—it has not yet been amended in Committee—but when it comes to this House. In my view, it is not in the interests of anyone to include “any willing provider”, which would inevitably involve EU competition law and legal cases about commissioning decisions. Nor is it in anyone’s interest that we should make costs and pricing the basic decision on where a patient is allocated. That would have profound effects on the relationships between patients and the general practitioners, consultants and managers who have to make these rationing choices.
Deep and fundamental problems underlie this Bill. I hope that when it comes to this House we will use the unusual but nevertheless precedented position of giving it a Second Reading but only on condition that it is referred to a Select Committee of this House in order to give it far deeper and more fundamental attention. This Bill should have had a full pre-legislative committee. It has not got it. Listening to this debate, it seems to me that we are not reflecting the anger, disillusionment and despair of many people outside this House about this legislation. Were the Bill to pass in its present form, it would do horrendous damage to the health service—not immediately, but slowly and imperceptibly. It would also damage the professionalism, care and intimacy of the one-on-one patient-nurse and doctor-patient relationships, which I believe are so essential.
Health is not just a commodity to be bought and sold in the market. It is not a utility in which everyone should be treated as if they are commodity managers. We must understand that and the fundamental issues which are being challenged by this Bill. Perhaps they are being challenged inadvertently but, nevertheless, that is happening. Extensive amendments have already been talked about. Why was the Bill in that condition? I urge this House at Second Reading to refer it to a Select Committee—perhaps for six months until after the Summer Recess. Then we could come back to the normal amendments and, if necessary, the ping-pong between both Houses. Ultimately, I would not hesitate to delay this Bill for the statutory period if the House of Commons does not accept amendment procedure in this House. Fundamental amendments are needed. This is not a minor piece of legislation or a part of the evolutionary change we have had since 1948; it is a revolutionary change and, in some parts, a very bad change.
Baroness Pitkeathley
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Turnberg and declare two interests as chair of the Specialised Healthcare Alliance and as chair of the Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence.
However devoted we are to the NHS—I speak as one who owes her life to it—we must acknowledge that there are still far too many instances where it falls short. No one could fail to be shocked by the ombudsman’s report to which many noble Lords have referred. The universal standards which we all wish to see, of a compassionate and skilled service, are by no means universal as yet. The dismissive attitudes and indifference to deplorable standards encountered in all too many instances must be addressed and, as far as possible, eliminated. I say “as far as possible” because, as a regulator of healthcare, I know only too well that it is not possible for any form of regulation to bear on every safety or quality concern. We are dependent on the quality of the professionals delivering the service and we must judge this always from the experience of the patient and his or her family.
When we think about commissioning as being about improving health outcomes and reducing health inequalities, let us never forget what that means from the patient’s point of view. Most will have absolutely no idea what “improving health outcomes” means. They only know that they want to be treated safely, with dignity and compassion, and have timely and effective treatment. In all the discussions we are currently having about the reform of commissioning, I am often struck by how remote those discussions seem from the actual experience of patients. The test that we must apply is whether it is better for them, not whether it is better for the Secretary of State, the commissioning board and GP consortia.
It is also striking how removed our discussions are from the facts around patients’ experience, which are not linear but confused and complicated—a mixture of services from health, social care, housing, the voluntary sector and their own families. This complication of experience is little recognised, even now when some of us have been trying for 30 years to get it recognised. The question we have to ask is: will the new commissioning arrangements deliver that recognition? We do not know.
What we do know is that every bit of research ever done about changing institutional structures shows that only a part, and usually a small part, of the objectives are achieved, and the bigger the upheaval, the fewer of those objectives are achieved. Since we are largely dependent for quality outcomes on the skill, commitment and—let us not be afraid to use the word—dedication of our staff, how are we to maximise those and provide them with the support they so urgently need when, for the next two years at the very least, their energy will be directed towards the change itself in the form of applying for their own jobs, learning to work with a new set of partners and so on? Also, the history of co-operation between GPs and social services does not fill me with hope, while the lack of co-terminosity between consortia and local authorities is certainly not going to be helpful.
We know that the commissioning board will issue guidance on commissioning to the consortia, but when is this to happen? Do we not risk a mismatch in timing? Some of the consortia are already willing to go ahead and are following their own rules in the absence of any from the commissioning board. I hope that the Minister will be able to comment on this. Also, from the patient’s point of view, we need a great deal more clarity about what will happen when GP consortia refuse to commission a service that a patient requires. Where is the accountability?
As to the voluntary sector, for so long the provider of good preventive care and services, we hear a great deal about organisations being encouraged to take on a greater share in providing public services and for the commissioners to recognise this. If we are serious about pushing power as close to individuals as possible and for citizens and communities to define the priorities and expectations of public services like the NHS, as the big society concept suggests we should, it is certainly important for the voluntary sector to be involved. However, many organisations are having their funding savagely cut, and more than half of them say they are going to have to cut staff in the next three months. Given that, I doubt their capacity.
Lord Rooker
My Lords, there is widespread concern among nurses, patients and relatives about the many incidents of poor nursing highlighted in recent years. There are of course many fine examples of high-quality nursing practice, and I can testify to that from my own family experiences. But action now needs to be taken to improve the state of nurse training and management. Over the past five years, a nurse friend of mine, Sheila Try, has been contacting successive Health Ministers, Select Committees and others with these concerns, as well as the Chief Nursing Officer, all to no avail. They have all failed to see that there is a fundamental flaw in the training and management of nurses and that the image of nursing has been damaged. The Chief Nursing Officer commented to Sheila that these,
“concerns resonate very well with nurse leaders who I have met around the country and with the wide range of people who explain their experiences to the Prime Minister’s Commission, ‘Frontline Care’”.
That is a clear admission of the points that Sheila and other experienced nurses are making.
Sheila Try is a qualified nurse and a health visitor to BSc standard, and a former senior manager and a reviewer for the Commission for Health Improvement. She is not someone who wants to turn the clock back, but she is concerned with the basic essentials of nursing. Last week, she met over 70 third-year degree nursing students at a local university who are due to qualify in August. They stated that they,
“do not feel confident or competent to work as staff nurses as the training has failed to give them the knowledge and skills they need, with clinical placements being too short. There are inconsistencies in clinical practice and Health Care Assistants are doing nursing tasks, including wound dressings, while they as students are doing Health Care Assistant roles (handing out drinks) when they should be being trained in nursing tasks”.
The students are concerned that their competencies are usually decided on just one observation of the skill required, such as catheterisation or wound care. They would prefer a more rigorous check in order for them to feel competent and confident. On learning to drive with an instructor, you do not do a three-point turn only once.
One of the issues lies in the ratio of academic to clinical practice. The time spent in contact with patients is only 15 weeks in each of the first two years over two placements and 21 weeks over two placements in the final year. That is not enough. This is not resulting in well trained nurses capable of giving good, consistent quality care at the point of qualification.
Image and esteem are important. These have been damaged by the practice of not using the title of “nurse” and the poor national uniform that was introduced some years ago. After working for three years to become a nurse, people are told not to use the title, but to tell patients their first name, which is unprofessional. The sign above the bed says, “Your nurse is Susan” or “Mark”, but not “Nurse Jones” or even “Nurse Susan”. That is ridiculous because it is unprofessional and breeds a familiarity that can cause problems.
The uniforms that nurses wear in most hospitals are not very professional, with qualified nurses wearing the same uniform with no difference in design to identify their status. The uniforms are often of poor quality. Nurses have said that they are more like a cleaner’s overalls—that is not to degrade cleaners. This affects not only the image that the uniforms portray to patients and relatives but also how nurses feel about themselves.
One major hospital in the Midlands has recently changed its uniform policy, bringing in colours to identify a nurse’s grade and with the grade embroidered on the uniform. Patients and relatives can now distinguish between a staff nurse and the sister in charge. It has massively lifted morale, because the nurses feel valued. The ward management points that Sheila has asked me to make are exactly the same, word for word, as those made by the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg. The solution, she thinks, is simple: tackle the way in which nurses are trained, with more time spent with patients and less in the classroom.
Nursing needs to be up to date with technology and the changing face of disease and management, but essential care is vital to ensure patients’ safety. A better balance between academia and professional placements, needs to be found. And, yes, Nurse Try would welcome an opportunity to put the case to the Minister direct.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield
My Lords, that is a hard act to follow. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, on securing such an important debate at a time of far reaching reforms to our National Health Service. These reforms should be judged by the extent to which they lead, first, to better health outcomes for adults and children; secondly, to consistently higher standards of care for all; and, thirdly, to a more responsive and personalised service. Given the scale and pace of reforms, the most radical in a generation and beyond, it will be crucial to give close attention to the quality of care during this period of immense change.
I would like to illustrate this by talking about the standards of care and commissioning practices within mental health services, still seen in some quarters as a Cinderella service. I am indebted to the briefing and support that I have received from the charity Mind.
One in four people is likely to experience a mental health problem every year and the cost of poor mental health to the economy is estimated to stand at £105 billion. As will be well known in your Lordships' House, mental health problems are inextricably linked to social factors such as debt, unemployment, poverty and poor housing.
The Government’s recent No Health without Mental Health strategy sets out a clear vision for the future of our mental health services. This is to be welcomed. The strategy also makes it clear that the provision of high-quality services is dependent on high-quality commissioning.
To make a reality of that strategy, it will be important to ensure four things: first, that commissioning bodies have a proper understanding of mental health services and service users; secondly, that mental health services are fully integrated both within the health service and across social care, public health and areas such as housing and policing; thirdly, that every opportunity is taken to increase patient and public involvement and that those who need extra support to get involved in decision-making are given it; and, finally, that there is parity of esteem between mental and physical health services.
In response to a recent survey by the charity Rethink, 42 per cent of GPs said that they lacked knowledge about services for people with mental illness and lacked confidence in commissioning those services. The abolition of the National Mental Health Development Unit this very day will create a real gap in mental health advice for commissioners and providers. What plans do the Government have to fill that gap in expertise?
The Government have recently announced plans to invest around £400 million over four years to ensure that adults with depression and anxiety across England have access to a wider range of effective psychological therapies. This investment will also enable the expansion of much needed psychological therapies for young people, older people, people with severe mental health problems and people with long-term physical health conditions. All this is greatly to be welcomed but it is vital that this funding is not seen in these tough financial times as an opportunity to cut existing mental health services.
As already referred to, only this week the Care Quality Commission released its latest report on the state of health and adult social care. I was concerned to see that, despite the welcome advances across the board, care standards for people experiencing mental health problems are being left behind, particularly in acute and crisis mental health care.
I would have liked to have finished by saying a few more words about the commissioning of children's mental health services—an area that I know something about. I am chief executive of the charity Relate, a declared interest of mine, which has experience of providing what is called early intervention counselling services. Time will elude me, but the one thing that I will say is that far too often the voluntary sector finds itself left to pick up the pieces because statutory services such as children and adolescent mental health services, which try to do a good job in very difficult circumstances, are vastly oversubscribed with very long waiting lists. More needs to be done to give this area higher priority.
Lord Touhig
My Lords, I join others in the House in thanking my noble friend Lord Turnberg for securing this debate. In the short time that I have at my disposal, I would like to focus my remarks on one area in particular: healthcare and autism. The noble Baroness, Lady Browning, and I, together with representatives of the National Autistic Society, recently met the Minister and we were given a very sympathetic hearing on matters that concerned us. We thank him for that.
The National Audit Office’s investigation into public spending on autism found that one of the best ways of overcoming the alarming gaps in training, planning and provision across a range of services was to develop specialist autism teams that could diagnose and support people with autism. It went on to say that, if such teams are established, there is the potential to save money. It stated that, if local services identified and supported just 4 per cent of adults with high-functioning autism and Asperger’s syndrome, the outlay would become cost neutral over time. In addition, it found that, if these local services did the same for just 8 per cent, the Government could save £67 million per year. The Liverpool Asperger Team, which is the longest-standing specialist Asperger’s service, reports an identification rate of 14 per cent, so 4 per cent is certainly achievable.
Will the Minister tell the House how teams such as the one in Liverpool will be funded if the Health and Social Care Bill is passed into law? In the Bill, health and social well-being boards have a duty to promote integrated working and, as such, would lead on commissioning specialist services. However, the White Paper published in July states that the NHS Commissioning Board will take responsibility for commissioning specialised services at both national and regional level, as informed by the specialised services national definitions set. These sets contain definitions of 34 services. Definition 22 covers specialist mental health services and includes specialised services for Asperger’s syndrome and autism spectrum disorder. There is clearly a difference between the White Paper and the legislation on how specialist autism teams will be commissioned to carry out their work. Will the Minister say whether the NHS Commissioning Board or, at local level, the health and well-being board will be responsible for this commissioning work?
Each of the commissioning scenarios is not without problems. First, specialist teams are often commissioned through pooled budgets. There is concern that, if 80 per cent of the commissioning budget sits with the GP consortia but the health and well-being boards are responsible for commissioning the joint services, the major budget holders—the GPs—may not commission services whose primary benefit in the short or medium term will be the local authorities. The commissioning problems could potentially become more complicated when health and well-being boards have a number of consortia in their areas. It is possible that the GP consortia might take a free ride and not contribute. Secondly, if these services are commissioned through the specialised services national definitions set at regional level, that could make it more difficult for the teams to respond to local needs and integrate themselves into each local authority that they serve.
The draft NICE guidelines on diagnosis, recognition and referral of autism in children and young people call for local teams to be created in each area. Teams such as the ones in Liverpool and Bristol are doing first-class work. A key way of getting over this problem of commissioning specialist teams is to strengthen the role of the health and well-being boards in creating pooled budgets and to ensure that the NHS Commissioning Board can intervene in any disputes over these budgets. I appreciate that this is a major problem still to be solved and I hope that the Minister will respond to that and to my other questions.
Lord Patel
My Lords, good healthcare systems deliver good standards of care and good commissioning should reflect that. I would like to focus on cancer, the insights that it offers into the performance of our healthcare system and the challenges that it poses in the new healthcare structure. The proportion of deaths attributable to cancer has risen from 17 per cent in 1948 to 27 per cent in 2008. It is predominantly a disease of the elderly. Alongside its human impact, cancer is also costly. The National Audit Office estimates the cost as £6.3 billion and the total cost to society as £18.3 billion. These costs will rise as the population ages and new treatments are developed.
Cancer survival is a key metric of the performance and quality of healthcare systems. It is a function of the population awareness of cancer symptoms, primary and secondary care assessment and referral, treatment quality and effective screening programmes. Each year around one in three people is diagnosed with cancer and one in four will die of cancer.
The Lancet in January 2011 compares the survival of patients diagnosed in England, Wales, Northern Ireland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Australia and Canada. All these countries have comprehensive cancer registration and broadly similar healthcare spending and systems. The study examined relative survival—the excess deaths due to cancer after allowing for competing causes of death—from 1995 to 2007. Despite the improvement in cancer survival in the UK, the survival gap—the difference between the UK and the best-performing nations—appeared to have showed only some narrowing in breast cancer but was static in colorectal and ovarian cancer and worse in lung cancer. The difference in survival in lung cancer is equivalent to at least 1,300 avoidable deaths each year if we matched the best in Europe. It has been estimated that this survival gap from England to the best-performing countries in Europe for all cancers accounts for 10,000 avoidable cancer deaths each year.
The healthcare system in the UK is not improving at a fast enough rate to narrow the survival gap. This accounts for thousands of avoidable deaths each year. A far greater proportion of people die within one year of cancer diagnosis in the UK than in better-performing countries such as Sweden. This is due to later diagnoses in the UK; when patients in the UK are diagnosed with cancer, it is more often at an advanced stage where survival is shorter.
The coalition Government published in January Improving Outcomes: A Strategy for Cancer. This strategy aims to deliver health outcomes that are among the best in the world. It aims to do this alongside the seismic reforms that are taking place in healthcare in England. These new reforms as they stand rely on high-quality information and organisation of cancer services. The strategy does not ensure the continued existence of cancer networks, but says that,
“it is likely that GP consortia will purchase services from a new style of cancer network”.
That does not go far enough. Cancer networks are essential organisations to ensure the delivery of improved cancer outcomes and, in particular, the geographical areas that allow robust outcome data to be derived. The centralisation of cancer services since the NHS cancer plan has helped to deliver improvements in cancer outcomes. The National Cancer Intelligence Network is now providing detailed cancer outcome data according to network, PCT and age. These powerful data can be used to improve outcomes.
Much of the variation in outcomes in cancer is due to late diagnosis or referral by general practitioners. There is no process in place for assessing the quality of GPs in the assessment of patients with potential cancer symptoms. The Teenage Cancer Trust survey reveals that one in four teenage cancer patients visited their GP four or more times before referral to hospital. Without cancer networks, there is a danger that the cheapest services will be purchased that meet basic but not world-class quality standards. Healthcare is a complex process and we will never be able to define and record every metric that will contribute to high-quality outcomes. I hope that the Minister will confirm today that there are no plans to abolish the cancer networks.
Lord Warner
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for securing this warm-up debate before the Government’s legislative juggernaut reaches this House. In the time available, I want to confine myself to talking about commissioning because good commissioning has a significant impact on achieving good service standards. For 20 years, we have been trying to establish an effective NHS commissioning system. Ken Clarke’s GP fundholding and partial purchaser/provider split was followed by Labour’s PCT commissioner model, again without a full purchaser/provider split. Just for good measure, I added on a practice-based commissioning dimension in 2006 which many PCTs were pretty effective at thwarting. Now we are to have another legislative go. That is a summary of the history of commissioning.
All too often, PCT commissioners have lacked the know-how, competence and muscle to commission effectively. Too often, they have been unable to manage demand, keep in check acute hospital expenditure and hold hospitals to account. We know from the Care Quality Commission data that there are too many PCTs with poor track records on quality and financial management. The House of Commons Health Select Committee’s excellent reports on PCT commissioning make for depressing reading. It is not, in my view, unreasonable to decide that PCTs have had their chance and failed overall, so we should try a more clinically driven model of commissioning, as the Government wish to do. In many ways, this is a logical development from practice-based commissioning. However, the Government must learn the lessons of past mistakes in designing a new commissioning model if they are not simply to repeat those mistakes.
The population size of many commissioning bodies has been too small for effective health-risk pooling. When I hear the BMA say that there is a new commissioning consortium with a population of 18,000 people, I despair. I managed to reduce the number of PCTs from 302 to 150, but could not secure agreement politically to go down to 50. That would have given us commissioning bodies with populations of about half a million to 1.5 million people. I believe that is the kind of population we should be looking for in commissioning the full range of services that the Government wish to give to those kinds of consortia. The amount of high-quality commissioning capability in the NHS that we had in 2005 was insufficient to service the number of bodies involved. That remains the case today and the added trouble is that the amount of money available to pay for them has become even smaller in size.
When the Bill comes to this House, we are going to have to probe the area of commissioning forensically. We will need to ensure that there is a proper system of licensing or accrediting commissioners, however the function is organised. We need to ensure that commissioning bodies have the data collection and the analytical, financial, contracting and clinical expertise to commission safely and cost-effectively the range of services that they will be legally required to commission with about £60 billion of public money a year, on present estimates. The National Commissioning Board must have the authority and capacity to prevent people without the competence to commission getting their hands on big slugs of public money. The board has to be able to remove and replace inefficient, incompetent or overspending commissioners in a timely way. Those are the kind of issues we should be considering when we come to that Bill.
In conclusion, as a former commissioner of social care I found it jolly useful to have a diversity of service providers so, unlike a number of people, I congratulate the Government on going for a bit more competition and extending the market for providers—not just from the private sector but with good providers from within the NHS and good mutuals, of which I suspect we will see a lot more in future. We will have a lot of time to discover what the Government’s thinking is on some of these issues as we take the Bill forward in this House.
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, I start by thanking my noble friend for initiating this debate and for emphasising the importance of standards of care and of the effect on patients of the proposed changes to the commissioning regime. Indeed, I congratulate all speakers in this debate. On this occasion, the point of my noble friend’s remarks was possibly, “We’re all in this together”, in dealing with the standards of care. However, he also said that we face some major challenges here, which are the challenges that he posed, as did several other noble Lords, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Emerton and Lady Hollins, and my noble friend Lady Sherlock. The question is: will the Bill help or not?
I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Owen, to both this debate and our wider discussions. I look forward to reading his pamphlet, Fatally Flawed, this weekend, and I suggest that the Minister might choose to do the same. However, I will resist the temptation to join the noble Lord in what would be a Second Reading speech.
I start by quoting a young woman who works in healthcare and who spoke last Saturday to between 200,000 and 500,000 people—personally, I think it was nearer the latter. In many ways, her simple eloquence says it all about how thousands of dedicated health workers feel. She said: “I am an NHS physiotherapist and have been for 13 years. My patients are people living with complex disability from conditions such as MS, brain injury, spinal cord injury and stroke. I work with a wonderful team of NHS workers such as occupational therapists, speech therapists, psychologists and rehab assistants, as well as social workers, to support our patients to overcome barriers to their independence, often supporting them back to work and working with their carers to support them to stay in their homes for as long as possible … David Cameron told you all in his election campaign that he would ‘cut the deficit, not the NHS’. Well, if 50,000 frontline NHS posts at risk doesn’t count as a cut, I shudder to think what does … For the sake of my patients, I fear the introduction of ‘any willing provider’. I fear that it will fragment services, will make the postcode lottery of care worse, and the most vulnerable patients, those least able to stick up for themselves—the kind of patients I treat every day—will be hit the hardest. Good quality patient care relies on good communication. How can we guarantee this, when services that currently work together are pitched into direct competition against each other? … In parts of the country, physios are already starting to see the rationing of care to just one or two treatment sessions, regardless of need … This is not the NHS I signed up to work for. I don't believe it is the kind of NHS that people in this country want”.
In this short response to the debate I am going to argue that we would not start here with reform and I will ask some questions about the risks to standards of the proposed commissioning system. I put a plea to the Minister: could we perhaps have some new words in his answers to these debates? I have looked back at the debates and discussions in the House since the White Paper was published last July, and time after time the Minister has stuck admirably to the Andrew Lansley brief, with what is becoming the famous NHS techno-jargon that weaves a web of words but really does not serve to comfort, or even leave one any the wiser. It is very noticeable that when the Minister comes off script and is back to his old, clever self, we prefer it and I, for one, understand things better.
We are nearing the point, after many questions and sustained criticism from professionals, patients and even the Minister’s partners in the coalition, when we need some real answers to real concerns, not least on the commissioning that is the subject of this debate. Notwithstanding the progress of the Health and Social Care Bill, I invite the Minister to agree that there is no doubt that the period 2011-14 is likely to be the most challenging ever faced by the NHS. The NHS is faced with the challenge of producing £20 billion in efficiency savings, putting considerable pressure on the system to maintain current standards of care. Given those constraints, we on this side of the House are still of the view, perhaps even more so now, that this is not the right time to embark on the largest structural reorganisation in NHS history, which includes scrapping those layers of the NHS structure with real experience of commissioning—family care trusts and strategic health authorities—and putting the power in the hands of untested and inexperienced consortia.
I am not saying that PCTs and SHAs have been unfailingly brilliant; in some cases, they have not even been good or average. There was and is significant room for improvement, and I think we would all agree on that. Most notably, clinical leadership and engagement in PCTs has often been weak, local accountability has been lacking and imbalances in status and power that exist between commissioners and providers appear to have limited substantially the former’s ability to influence service provision, to say nothing of the lack of clinical presence in the whole process. However, we believe that it would have been better to tackle this problem rather than to turn the whole NHS upside down.
What of the transition? Responsibility for maintaining and improving the quality of services will fall initially to the new PCT clusters. At a time of major reorganisational transition it will be especially important to have in place adequate performance measures supported by transparent and robust mechanisms, through which the GP consortia and PCT clusters can account to local people for the quality and performance of local health services. I do not see how this can be achieved when PCTs are being decimated either by the efficiency cuts or people jumping ship to work elsewhere. Perhaps the Minister can say how he thinks this will be achieved.
We know that PCTs are responsible for commissioning a range of primary, community, secondary and tertiary health services, often in partnership with local authorities—for instance, in mental health—and, indeed, other PCTs, through networks or consortia for specialised services, and primary care clinicians through practice-based commissioning. That has already been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Patel—cancer networks being one of these. This is a complex landscape and it is about to become even more so. It will grow a whole new bureaucracy of its own if the competition which the Government intend to put at the heart of the Bill, whatever one believes about that, is as envisaged.
The majority of concerns with the health Bill in relation to commissioning of services fall into five broad areas: multidisciplinary commissioning; commissioning of long-term conditions; specialist commissioning; a lack of national guidance leading to fragmentation; and communication and co-ordination between providers and commissioners. A theme that runs throughout these areas is concern about the involvement of GPs and the ability of relevant commissioners to secure appropriate clinical input when commissioning services.
The King’s Fund report of the beginning of March highlights the need for strong, strategic commissioning to reconfigure some services such as cancer, cardiac and stroke care across large geographical areas. It argues that this will not be delivered by the Government's health reforms, which will abolish the strategic health authorities currently responsible for leading this work and leave GP consortia to fill the gap, which they are unlikely to be able to fill—to which I add that that will probably be the case for at least 10 years or so.
Briefly, on long-term and specialist conditions, throughout the debates since last July various advocates and campaigning organisations on almost every long-term condition have commented on the proposed reform. The Minster must accept that the Alzheimer’s Society, the cancer campaigns, diabetes organisations and many others are very worried about the commissioning for their conditions becoming fragmented and incoherent, to say nothing of end-of-life care and, for example, treatment for children with very serious conditions.
The Government are asking those who have fought long and hard for recognition of and improvement in the treatment and care of people to take on trust that everything will be okay. The Minister needs to accept that this clamour about commissioning, although we are joining it, is not motivated by Her Majesty’s Opposition being oppositionist; it is about a long list of concerns, questions and anxieties that we have to address without the proposed revolution. I look forward to the Minister’s reply.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, I begin by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, for tabling a Motion which has occasioned such a fascinating and often moving debate. As has happened previously, the breadth and depth of the contributions create their own problem in that, when there is such a short time available for me to reply, I am up against the clock. To the extent that I am unable to answer specific questions today, I apologise but I will of course happily follow them up in writing.
There are many reasons why we believe it is necessary to modernise the National Health Service. With rising costs of new treatments, an ageing population and rising public expectations, the system is simply not sustainable in its present form. Most importantly, however, the NHS must modernise in order to focus relentlessly on what matters most to patients: improving health outcomes. In so many ways it is a wonderful service, but we know that it can do better and we believe that it must do better. For our ambition is not limited to maintaining the current quality of services, it is far greater—to have health outcomes that are consistently among the very best in the world. I suggest to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, who said that now was not the time to do any of this, that the financial situation that we face provides even more of a reason to modernise swiftly. I hope that she and other noble Lords will agree with me that this debate is really about quality.
The noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, began by raising the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman’s report, Care and Compassion? I am sure that all of us can identify with the concerns that he raised about nurse training and accountability for what happens on the hospital ward. I am sure I was not alone in being very moved by the noble Lord’s speech. I fully intend that we should learn from the ombudsman’s report, which is why its findings have been highlighted to NHS boards and why the Care Quality Commission will be commencing unannounced inspection visits shortly. However, I also submit that the changes that we are making to the NHS—placing the patient at the heart of everything we do—will help to guard against this happening in the future.
As the noble Lord, Lord Warner, rightly reminded us, effective commissioning is a key piece of the jigsaw. Currently, commissioning decisions are taken by primary care trusts—remote organisations that frankly few people have heard of and fewer still understand. We propose to hand responsibility for commissioning to GP-led consortia. Why are we doing so? It is because GPs and their clinical colleagues are the people who best understand the health needs of their local populations, and, in partnership with healthcare professionals from across primary, community and secondary care, they are ideally placed to design clinical services that provide more effective, integrated and preventive care.
Lord Davies of Stamford
I am very grateful to the Minister for giving way. Will the present system of “choose and book”, which seems to me to be working extremely well, be perpetuated under the new commissioning consortia regime?
Earl Howe
Yes, my Lords. However, if the noble Lord will forgive me, I do not propose to take many interventions as the time is limited. As I say, the answer to his question is yes.
Those who question the effectiveness of these arrangements should focus on the new framework of accountability that we are proposing as it is central. The new NHS will be more directly accountable than it is now. Because of that our reforms introduce a stronger national framework for driving quality improvement than ever before. How will this accountability work? The Secretary of State will hold the NHS Commissioning Board to account for delivery against the NHS outcomes framework, published in December. The NHS Commissioning Board will then hold individual consortia to account for their performance against the indicators set out in the more locally focused commissioning outcomes framework. There was widespread and strong support for such a framework during our consultation.
The NHS Commissioning Board will decide on the shape and content of the commissioning outcomes framework over the next two years, working closely with emerging consortia and with professional and patient groups. To help maintain momentum, the department will shortly publish a discussion document, seeking more detailed views on possible features of the framework. The Health and Social Care Bill contains a new duty of quality. The NHS Commissioning Board and GP consortia will be required continually to improve the quality of NHS services. Underpinning that, the Care Quality Commission will regulate providers on safety and quality, with wide-ranging enforcement powers to protect patients should providers fail to meet requirements. Accountability works in its fullest sense only if there is transparency. We will publish clear, easy to understand information on the quality of healthcare services and the progress being made to reduce health inequalities. We also propose, subject to the passage of the Bill, that the NHS Commissioning Board be able to make payments to consortia in recognition of the outcomes they achieve collaboratively through commissioning and the effectiveness with which they manage their financial resources.
How will quality be driven through the commissioning system? Quality standards, prepared by NICE, will be at the centre of it. Quality standards bring clarity to quality, providing definitive and authoritative statements of high-quality care, based on evidence of what works best. Quality of care does not cover just the effectiveness of that care but also includes patient safety and patient experience. The three domains of quality are interconnected: they cannot exist in isolation. The Royal College of Physicians reflected on this point in its response to the consultation on the NHS outcomes framework and acknowledged that healthcare that is not safe could not be described as efficient, effective or sustainable.
Our reforms will allow a re-established NICE to produce a broad library of quality standards that will cover the majority of NHS services. NICE will also develop quality standards for social care and public health. The Secretary of State and the NHS Commissioning Board will be able to commission quality standards jointly, which will open up the opportunity for standards to cover the whole care pathway, from public health interventions in primary care through to rehabilitation and long-term support in social care, and will support the integration of health and social care services. It is important to understand that quality standards will do more than just bring clarity to quality: they will have real traction within the system, underpinning the duty of quality and linking with the new best practice tariffs that will see providers paid more for better care.
GP consortia will have a duty to support the NHS Commissioning Board in continuously improving the quality of primary medical care services. That does not alter the board's overarching responsibility for commissioning GP services and holding GP contracts. But it does mean that consortia will play a systematic role in helping to monitor, benchmark and improve the quality of GP services, including through clinical governance and clinical audit. It means also that consortia will have a core role in improving patient care across the system. That will include both the quality and accessibility of the care that GP practices provide and the wider services that consortia commission on behalf of patients.
Where does the Secretary of State sit in all this? The Health and Social Care Bill strengthens the accountability of the Secretary of State to Parliament for the provision of the comprehensive health service. For the first time, the Secretary of State will have to report each year on the performance of the health service, consult on the annual objectives set for the NHS through a mandate, and lay both documents before Parliament. The NHS Commissioning Board will be accountable to the Secretary of State for delivering against that mandate.
Nursing has been a strong theme in the debate. The noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, asked when the Government's response to the report of the commission on nursing will be published. I can assure her that the Government will respond soon to the commission's report and I apologise for not having given her an undertaking to that effect sooner. The noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, and the noble Lord, Lord Winston, raised concerns about nursing standards in hospitals. As they know, we now have matrons in post. They have a specific remit for quality of patient experience and should be accessible to patients and carers. Matrons are directly accountable to directors of nursing, who should present ward-to-board reports. We launched the Principles of Nursing Practice in November last year. This sets out an agreed set of standards and behaviours that were developed by the Royal College of Nursing in association with patient groups. These principles reinforce the NHS constitution.
The noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, asked about the duty of consortia to improve the quality of care for older people. There is no specific duty in the Bill relating to consortia and older people. However, we propose a new duty for consortia to seek continuous improvements in the quality of services for patients and in outcomes, with particular regard to clinical effectiveness, safety and patient experience. That extends to all aspects of care.
The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, spoke about the recent King's Fund report. The report highlights particular variation in relation to patient involvement in decision-making, and in co-ordination and continuity of care. It also highlights the need for changes in leadership and culture. We have a strong system of general practice in this country, but we agree absolutely with the report that there is too much variation in quality. This reinforces the case for GP decommissioning, because one of the key aims behind the development of GP commissioning is for consortia to play a central role in helping to reduce variation and drive up the quality of general practice. There will be strong incentives for GP consortia to want to tackle these variations, because with lower-quality primary care one achieves poorer outcomes for patients and one has greater pressure on more expensive secondary care services.
The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, questioned whether the Government were allowing enough time to see whether the changes would work. With the introduction of shadow bodies and early implementers, we are allowing almost three years to consult, to dry-run and to put our reforms into practice on the ground, so that by 2013 the new organisations will have had time to secure capability collectively. Therefore, it is wrong to say that the house is being demolished; in many senses, we are refashioning some parts of the existing edifice.
On that theme, the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, asked how consortia will be authorised, given their different states of readiness. The pathfinder programme is, I think, central to sharing learning across emerging consortia, and it is a crucial part of their development to take on full commissioning responsibilities. Consortia will not have statutory responsibility for commissioning until April 2013, so the intervening period will allow all consortia to be ready by that time.
We listened to an impassioned speech from the noble Lord, Lord Owen, who criticised the Health and Social Care Bill on a number of fronts. Time prevents me setting out a detailed set of counterarguments but perhaps I may just say to him that we have tabled amendments to the Bill that will put beyond doubt that competition will be on the basis of quality and not price. Far from challenging the principles of the NHS, we have consistently made it clear that we are absolutely committed to a comprehensive National Health Service which is free at the point of use and is based on need rather than ability to pay. Nothing in our plans changes that.
The noble Lord criticised the policy of “any willing provider”, or “any qualified provider” as we are now calling it, because we think that that is a better description of the policy. The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, did the same. “Any qualified provider” is about empowering patients and carers, improving their outcomes and experience, enabling innovation, and freeing up clinicians to drive change and improve practice. Introducing a choice of any qualified provider will give patients more control. That is what all the research evidence tells us they want and increasingly expect from the NHS. Why should not someone with MS be able to choose the physiotherapist they want and be treated at the time and in the setting that best suits their need? Why should not a patient, at the end of their life, choose their hospice provider? Patients are already able to choose from any provider that meets NHS standards and prices when they are referred for a first out-patient appointment to a consultant-led team. That was an innovation brought in by the previous Government. “Any qualified provider” will extend that principle to more providers and more services, including social enterprises and charities, particularly in community care. For the life of me, I cannot see what is wrong with that. Money will follow the patient and the choices they make about where and by whom they are treated.
The noble Lord, Lord Owen, indicated his belief that the policies that the Government are advancing will damage clinical professionalism and remove the intimacy inherent in the doctor/patient relationship. I say to the noble Lord gently and with huge respect that I do not believe he has any basis whatever for suggesting that. I would argue, on the contrary, that clinically-led commissioning brings the design of services closer to patients.
Earl Howe
The department has sought legal advice on that point and the strong consensus is that the NHS, as we envisage it initially, will not be subject to EU competition law. It is not at the moment, as the noble Lord will know, although of course the situation can change over time. This is an interesting, and rather esoteric, area of debate but I do not think that it impacts—
Earl Howe
I mean that it becomes rather technical. However, I do not think that it impacts on the central point that I was seeking to make, which was to argue that the noble Lord’s contention that the doctor/patient relationship would be damaged does not stand up. To me, the principle of shared decision-making—“no decision about me without me”—will bring about an even closer partnership between clinicians and patients.
The noble Lord, Lord Patel, spoke about cancer services. GP consortia will be well placed to commission the majority of cancer services and GPs have a crucial role to play to achieve earlier diagnosis of cancer. As a first step in relation to cancer services, we will work with GP consortia and pathfinders to identify and provide the sort of data that they will find useful to commission cancer services effectively. We will provide GP consortia profiles of services and outcomes for their local populations—for example, cancer survival rates, the use of the two-week urgent referral pathway, uptake of screening and use of inpatient beds. We will be benchmarking the data against similar consortia so that they will know what needs tackling to improve outcomes in their areas. However, as the noble Lord will know, we have also earmarked a great deal of money to ensure that our plans for earlier diagnosis—giving GPs direct access to key diagnostic tests, for example—will assist in the process. He asked about cancer networks. They have had a crucial role in improving the quality of cancer treatment. I quite agree with him. They have helped commissioners, providers and patients to work together to plan and deliver high-quality cancer services. GP consortia will need commissioning support and cancer networks will be well placed to provide that. The department has said that next year there will be funding for cancer networks to support commissioning.
The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, asked about the commissioning of autism services. The health and well-being board will be the key vehicle by which commissioners and local authorities can work together, ensuring that services that cross health and social care can be effectively commissioned. The noble Lord raised a number of valid points about how these arrangements for autism services will work in practice. I suggest that I cover those in a detailed letter.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, and my noble friend Lady Tyler questioned the ability of consortia to commission mental health. We recognise the need for GP commissioners to collaborate with their clinical colleagues and one of the key initiatives in mental health derives from the new joint commissioning panels set up in partnership between the Royal College of Psychiatrists, the Royal College of General Practitioners, the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services, and others. That collaboration works to promote integrated working across secondary and social care. The outcomes and lessons from this work will be made available to inform the implementation of the new commissioning arrangements.
My noble friend Lady Benjamin asked a number of questions about sickle cell. Again, I should like, if I may, to take full advice from my department about the points she raised and write to her.
Our reforms are ambitious and challenging but we have been heartened by the enthusiasm that we have found among clinicians, especially among those already taking increasing levels of responsibility through the new consortia. There are now 177 GP pathfinders involving more than 5,000 GP practices, covering more than 35 million people across England. I am confident that by empowering clinicians to innovate and deliver health services we can continue to address the healthcare needs of this country and move towards delivering outcomes that are indeed consistently among the best in the world.
Lord Turnberg
My Lords, this has been a fascinating debate and I am enormously grateful to noble Lords for many outstanding speeches. I have learnt a lot. I am only sorry that we had such a short time—each speaker had only four minutes—but I am constantly amazed at how noble Lords are able to pack in so much useful information in such a short time. The noble Earl, as one might expect, was eloquent and convincing, but it remains to be seen how many he has convinced around the House. I am sure that he is as aware as I am that these are not the last words we will hear on these matters. With those few comments, I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Inter-parliamentary Scrutiny: EUC Report
(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Roper
That this House endorses the proposal of the European Union Committee for Future inter-parliamentary scrutiny of EU foreign, defence and security policy, and requests the Lord Speaker or her representative to present it to the EU Speakers’ Conference in April 2011. (7th Report, HL Paper 85)
Lord Roper
My Lords, this Motion endorses the seventh report of your Lordships’ European Union Committee, which I chair. The proposal sets out the arrangements which we would like to put in place for the inter-parliamentary scrutiny of the common foreign, security and defence policy of the European Union, following the winding up of the Western European Union, and therefore its Assembly.
The proposal is in the same terms as one approved by the other place, on the basis of a report from its Foreign Affairs Select Committee, on 10 March. I am grateful to that committee and its chairman, and to the House of Commons European Scrutiny and Defence Committees for their informal co-operation, which has allowed the committees of both Houses to come to a common position on the matter.
It might be of assistance to the House if I briefly set out the context for the Motion before the House today. As many noble Lords will know, the member states of the Western European Union decided this time last year that the organisation should be dissolved with effect from the middle of 2011. I need not tell this House that the Western European Union and its Assembly has played a valuable and unique role giving international parliamentary oversight of European security and defence matters. About 30 years ago, in the 1970s, I myself served in the Assembly and was a chairman of its defence committee, so I know its work in that period very well.
More recently, as the first head of the Western European Union Institute for Security Studies, which was co-located in the Assembly building, I have seen how many noble Lords have contributed actively to the work of the Assembly over the years, and I pay full tribute to the important work which they have done.
The question now before us is: what should be done to replace it? The inter-governmental nature of decision-making in the common foreign and security policy and the common security and defence policy of the European Union means that parliamentary scrutiny of those policies should not be left to the European Parliament. The significance of the CFSP and the CSDP activities is that those are decisions made by the European Council, which is of course made up of Foreign Ministers from the member states, who are held to account by their national Parliaments. It is therefore important that national Parliaments should be aware of and share in considering those matters at a European level.
As we state in our report, the European Union Committee is of the view that it is vital that some forum for inter-parliamentary debate on these matters is maintained in the post-WEU period, with national Parliaments taking the lead. The issue of how the forum should be structured is the principal subject for discussion at next week's conference of European Union Speakers’ in Brussels. As is indicated in the Motion, we ask for the House’s endorsement of the committee’s approach today, so that when, next Monday, I will be representing the Lord Speaker, I will have a mandate to agree to new arrangements.
The proposals are set out in full in our report, but I shall refer only to the principal points. We propose that the successor body should be a European Union inter-parliamentary conference on foreign affairs, defence and security, with the acronym of COFADS. It should,
“secure continued inter-parliamentary scrutiny of this area of EU activity”,
and,
“would not be an additional or autonomous institution”.
In fact, it would replace the current biennial meetings of the chairs of the foreign affairs and defence committees of national Parliaments. Therefore, it,
“would minimise costs, while adding value to the work that each national parliament does on its own in this field”.
Under our proposal, all the European Union national Parliaments and the European Parliament, but only those Parliaments, would have full membership of the COFADS body. Parliaments of official European Union candidate members would be automatically invited as observers—that is, Croatia, Macedonia, Iceland and, importantly, Turkey. We make it clear in our proposal that it would be possible for other countries to be invited on the decision of the presidency. In speaking to the matter next week, I shall of course refer particularly to the case of the other European members of NATO, especially Norway, which has made strong representations to us on this subject. Delegations from each country would consist of a maximum of six delegates per Parliament, including the European Parliament. That would be three per Chamber in the case of a bicameral Parliament such as our own.
The proposal is that the new body, COFADS, would meet once in every presidency; that is, twice a year. We propose that the meetings should as a general rule be held in Brussels or in the presidency country; but we feel that there would be some advantage in it not necessarily meeting in the European Parliament, to make quite clear that it is a distinct body of national Parliaments rather than something else. Organisational responsibility would be borne by the Parliaments of the troika countries—the country holding the presidency, the country about to hold the presidency and the country that had just held the presidency. They would be responsible for providing the secretariat function with support from the secretariat that already exists in Brussels and services COSAC, the conference of the national European committees of the Parliaments of the European Union.
This is the position of the European Union Committee and it has already been endorsed by the other place; and, as I said, next week I will go to Brussels for the Speakers’ conference, and if the House agrees to the Motion on the Order Paper, it will be the position of both Houses of the UK Parliament. The Speakers’ conference makes its decisions on the basis of consensus. Finding a consensus in advance of the conference has so far not been totally straightforward. However, I am pleased that a significant majority of other European Union national Parliaments broadly support the position outlined in your Lordships’ committee’s report.
On 24 February, the Belgian Parliament, as host of the forthcoming Speakers’ conference, circulated a draft proposal for the future of the CFSP and the CSDP scrutiny—noble Lords may have seen it in the very useful debate pack which the Library prepared for today’s debate. The proposal was a significant way away from the position that I have outlined today. It envisaged, in particular, a significantly greater role for the European Parliament than we would be prepared to accept, notably with the European Parliament holding a permanent co-presidency of the conference and providing up to a third of the delegates but not providing the secretariat.
In response to the proposal, I wrote jointly with Richard Ottaway, the chair of the House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee, to the Speakers of the two Belgian Houses. We set out in our letter the positions of the two committees, and I am very pleased to say that many other national Parliaments have made similar representations. The Belgian presidency reflected on those responses and issued a revised proposal last Friday, which is also in the Library’s debate pack. It has obviously taken serious account of the representations made by the national parliaments and the revised proposal is heading in the right direction. We should be grateful for that. Thanks to its efforts, an agreement on a proposal next week, which will only be possible on the basis of consensus, now looks a more likely prospect.
However, there remain in the Belgian proposal some areas of concern. Most seriously, the Belgians suggest that the national parliamentary delegations should be limited to four members. In order to allow proper party political balance and Select Committee representation, we remain firmly of the view that delegations should be allowed up to six members per Parliament. Secondly, in our view, the European Parliament is still given too great a proportion of the delegates. In the revised proposal, the proportion has been reduced from a third of the total membership to a quarter of the total size of the national parliamentary delegations. Although there are other matters in the Belgian revised compromise proposal—such as the location of meetings—which also diverge somewhat from the intended UK position, it is these two issues on which we have the strongest views and on which we have been supported most strongly by most other national Parliaments. If the House agrees to our report today, I will argue strongly for the position in the report, and I will feel unable to agree to a proposal that does not come significantly closer to the UK Parliament's position than the revised Belgian proposal on these two points of substance.
As is clear from the report before the House, the European Union Committee's clear view is that the continuation of an inter-parliamentary forum is necessary to ensure that the demise of the WEU does not leave a serious gap in scrutiny. Should we have needed reminding, recent events in north Africa and the Middle East have demonstrated the fundamental importance of discussing and perhaps sometimes reaching agreement on common foreign, security and defence policies. The WEU Assembly will meet for the last time in June. It is therefore wholly desirable that the European Union Speakers’ Conference next week can reach a decision so that the new forum can become operational later this year. I am optimistic that, with further compromise, such a decision can be reached, and I will do everything I can to secure it.
The committee's position is clearly set out in the report. I believe that it is a sensible and appropriate response to the winding up of the WEU Assembly and, if agreed to, will make a good framework for inter-parliamentary scrutiny for years to come. I therefore commend it to the House. I beg to move.
Lord Davies of Stamford
My Lords, I am very happy with this proposal and delighted to hear of the progress which the noble Lord, Lord Roper, has made in negotiating it. I congratulate him first on having seen off Mr Lidington’s completely inappropriate and ill thought through proposal that countries other than members of the European Union, or even candidate members, should be members of this body. Part of this body’s function is to hold the Council of Ministers, the European Council and the high representative to account, so the idea of a body that is composed of states that are not even members of the European Union holding the European Council to account or sending instructions to the high representative is utterly absurd. It would be rather like us trying to intervene in the activities of the African Union or sending instructions to its director-general, if that is what he is called. I am therefore very glad indeed that the noble Lord’s judgment and that of his colleagues has prevailed over the Government’s initial proposal.
As the noble Lord said, one or two matters have been left open, but they are obviously secondary or tertiary matters and I hope that he will feel able to display whatever flexibility is required. Those on all sides of the House who know him—I have known him for many years: indeed, long before I got into this place—will have the highest respect for his judgment, and it is important that he feels that he can go back to the meeting with a degree of negotiating flexibility. Some of the outstanding issues, such as whether meetings can be held in the premises of the European Parliament, seem a little theological and indeed rather petty, so giving way on such a matter in order to get an agreement sooner and to establish quite clearly what the regime will be would be very much in the interests of this House and indeed of the country and the future functioning of this committee.
I conclude with one thought. Perhaps noble Lords will think I am slightly self-interested in saying this, and perhaps I am, but I do not necessarily apologise for that. The proposed arrangement is very good, but the noble Lord will appreciate that it leaves entirely in the hands of three Members of this House and three Members of the House of the Commons the important role of co-ordinating with parliaments of other member states on the vital issue of the future of the common and foreign security policy and possibly defence policy of the European Union. Is there some scope for having from time to time—certainly not as frequently as the meetings of the proposed new committee but at most once a year or maybe less—a slightly wider conference enabling those of us in both Houses who take a close interest in these matters to meet colleagues in the other European Union member states to discuss those matters and to see what the views are and how they are evolving, and where consensus might be possible and where it might not be possible? In other words, is there some scope for getting a flavour of the debate directly, as one could in the old days when there was the WEU Assembly? In much older days, long before I became involved in public life and before direct elections to the European Parliament, Members of both Houses attended meetings at which they could discuss matters of common interest with other members of national parliaments and the European Community.
Of course, as the noble Lord, Lord Roper, knows, I do not suggest for one moment going back on the decision to have direct elections to the European Parliament—far from it. That is an obvious and a great improvement. But I should be grateful if he could give some thought, and possibly discuss it with his British and other EU colleagues, as to whether there might be some opportunity from time to time to widen the circle a little bit in order that these important matters, which are sometimes extremely complex, are not left exclusively in the arcane hands of a small number of experts—great as the expertise will certainly be, at least from the, I think, six representatives which the British side will send to the committee.
Lord Dykes
My Lords, I too welcome very much the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Roper, has tabled this Motion. I also welcome the fact that he has explained the background to it as well as the background to the Select Committee report and the recommendations. We on these Benches, and I as a member of the EU Select Committee, very much endorse Appendix 1 and the details of the proposal. We thank the noble Lord for having had oversight of this matter. He followed it through in painstaking detail. Without wishing to embarrass him by heaping too much praise on him, which is deserved none the less, I can think of no one more suitable or with a longer pedigree of knowledge on this subject and this particular theme than the noble Lord, Lord Roper. He mentioned his work in the Assembly in the early 1970s. I remember vividly having a long meeting with him in Paris to discuss these matters in the early days of the development of the WEU and the rest of the apparatus.
It is a very good way of viewing the gradual development of this new architecture, bringing in the European Union, as a result of the two recent treaties, into the oversight of defence and security policy for European Union member states. Originally, there was resistance from certain senior members of NATO and various member states about the idea of the EU being involved in some aspects of the other subordinate bodies that the EU proposed to be established to deal with these subjects in detail, including the defence agency. I think now that there is a much more contented atmosphere between the two. There is a feeling now of reciprocal aid and support in psychological terms between NATO and the EU on these subjects, which I hope will continue without me being too complacent about the difficulties therein, because old habits can die hard.
This is a moment too to pay tribute to the WEU and what was achieved over the years with it and the great experts among parliamentarians of all countries who developed a profound knowledge. I recall, over many years, quite a few laudatory comments from the RUSI, the Royal College of Defence Studies personnel and so on about the quality of the investigations and reports of WEU committees and the work that they did. It was inevitable that it would end. That is quite right and people accept that now. We move on to the new ESDA structure and we wish Robert Walter, the new chairman, and his colleagues well with those functions.
Now that NATO is in areas other than just western Europe, there will be more and more areas where the EU will wish to follow what is going on as a united body. Equally, it is right that it should remain primarily in the intergovernmental cockpit because that is the nature of the subject. Gradually, the European Parliament will also extend its activity and architecture in the whole area of defence and security. That is a decision which will, I am sure, in friendly consultation with national parliaments, reflect the worthy sentiments of the Lisbon treaty. It specifically built into the development of the European Union—and the integration that we are now seeing being accelerated, I am glad to say, in various fields—the idea of a much bigger involvement of the national parliaments in all sorts of European policy forming areas. The involvement was not just in this particular area. The way in which the European Parliament responds to that now will be much more encouraging than we might have feared in the past. For all those reasons and for the reasons explained by the noble Lord, Lord Roper, in his initial remarks, we very much hope that this Motion will be supported today.
Lord Jopling
My Lords, I am glad to be able to give broad support to the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Roper, in opening the debate. There are some people who look back with great nostalgia on the work of the WEU over the years, and there is no doubt that it has done some extremely useful work. But over the last few years I have heard the WEU described in a rather rude way as being similar to an old dog who is much loved but for whom sentimental affection prevents it being gently put to sleep. It has been right to put it to sleep over the course of the last year or so.
Little objection has been made to the view that there really must be some form of parliamentary oversight over both the CFSP and the CSDP. The question is what form that should take. The Select Committee report—the House may recall that I happen to be a member of that committee—is absolutely on the right lines. The first point is that national parliaments must take the leading role in this. I notice that the latest Belgian proposal suggests that there should be not six but four Members from each parliament. Personally, I do not mind that very much. Bearing in mind that someone spoke earlier of the quality of the likely representations from the UK Parliament, I am sure that we shall be extremely well represented whether it is four or six, but my preference would be for four representatives. I imagine that if there were only four representatives, the two from your Lordships’ House would be the noble Lord, Lord Roper, and the chairman of Sub-Committee C, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. They would represent us extremely well and bring a great deal of expertise to the conference.
One of the contentious issues, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Roper, was what the role of the European Parliament should be. Of course it should have a presence, I am entirely in favour of that, but most emphatically not of the first proposal made by the Belgian Parliament. It suggested that one-third of the membership—54 members—should come from the European Parliament. It modified that figure in the second proposal to bring it down to 27. My suggestion to the noble Lord, Lord Roper, is that when he goes to the meeting in Brussels next week he would do well to insist on 12 representatives from the European Parliament. I think that that would be ample. It would mean that the European Parliament had 10 per cent of the membership and that the total membership of the conference, with 108 representatives from the various member parliaments, would be 120. Thus, if the conference meets for one and a half days twice a year, at 120 members, those representatives would have an adequate opportunity to make a contribution. I should have thought that that number was entirely adequate with no need for any more.
My own view, which I know some people do not agree with, is that a small representation as observers—I insist on that—from candidate states to the EU should be included, and from European states that are members of NATO, which is in the amended Belgian proposal. I would have thought that that was reasonable. If the proposal is pressed on the noble Lord, Lord Roper, I hope that it will be written into the rules that they can speak but that they do not have a vote and cannot put down amendments to motions. They should be there entirely as observers with the opportunity, if they wish, to speak.
There is no need to set up a new institution with a galaxy of officials if it is only to meet twice a year. The suggestion that it be organised through COSAC is reasonable. I am bound to say that I have never been a huge enthusiast for COSAC. Over the years, I have attended various meetings. I remember going to some of them as chairman of Sub-Committee C, the foreign affairs and defence committee, years ago. My experience is that that body is not as well directed and effective as it should be. I hope that its new responsibility for organising COFAD meetings twice a year will give it a new objectivity and we are right to give it a try.
I am not very happy with the latest Belgian proposal that the COSAC secretariat organise meetings in conjunction with the troika and the European Parliament. I do not really see why the European Parliament needs to be involved in the organisation of the meetings. It should not be left like that, with just the COSAC secretariat in Brussels and the troika. The troika does not give a feeling of continuity; it is a transient thing, as we all know—although it takes 18 months to get through it. If these meetings are to discuss defence and security matters, it is very important that military/defence expertise is somehow attached to the organisation. Unless it is, we could have trouble ahead and the work of the conference in future would not be sufficiently oriented to defence and security matters. Perhaps it would be possible temporarily to attach specialist defence consultants to the secretariat to add that expertise. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Roper, will be able to insist on that when he is in Brussels next week. I am perfectly confident that he will look after the United Kingdom’s interests in those meetings and the interests of this House. I certainly wish him well. However, I must stress to him the need firmly to set the new body up so that it is tied into various conditions and rules which prevent the sort of mission creep which has befallen some international bodies in the past.
I am concerned that some of these international bodies do too much travelling, and to places which are unnecessarily distant. Perhaps I may give your Lordships an example which irritates me to death. I have to leave home at six o’clock tomorrow morning to fly to the Azores for a meeting of the standing committee of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly. It is meeting on Saturday and we come home on Sunday. That seems an enormous waste of time and money, when the meeting could perfectly well have taken place in Brussels or even in Lisbon. To have to go through Lisbon to go to the Azores to be there for 48 hours seems to me an absurdity and a waste of money. It is the sort of thing that we have to try to correct. Certainly, that will be one of the things that I say to the standing committee at our meeting on Saturday.
Lord Liddle
My Lords, on behalf of the Opposition, I welcome this Motion from the noble Lord, Lord Roper. We support the recommendations for the establishment of an EU Inter-parliamentary Conference on Foreign Affairs and Defence and Security. We have had interesting contributions from my noble friend Lord Davies of Stamford and the noble Lords, Lord Dykes and Lord Jopling.
I could hardly do otherwise than support the committee recommendation, given that I was on the committee when the recommendation was formulated, but it seems to be a wise set of recommendations. As an historian I share in the nostalgia of the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, for the Western European Union, but the WEU was rather a long time dying, if I may put it like that. I first remember this coming up when the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Port Ellen, was Secretary of State for Defence in 1998. We had a discussion between the Ministry of Defence and No. 10 and the Foreign Office when I was an adviser in No. 10 about folding the WEU into the existing NATO and EU structures. It has been a long time since Britain first put forward that proposal.
The recommendations that we now have are right. We need a body made up of national parliamentarians to maintain some form of parliamentary accountability in the area of EU defence and foreign policy. The EU is a complex hybrid of supranationalism and intergovernmentalism. It has become an even more complex one with the passage of the Lisbon treaty and the setting up of the double-hatted high representative who has both a responsibility in the Commission and is accountable to the Foreign Ministers’ Council. It is very important that, because the intergovernmental nature of these things remains crucial, there is a body made up of national parliaments which can question the high representative. It also seems to me that there is a very strong political case for this type of body. I am sure that the European role in these questions is going to grow greatly in the years ahead in response to the pressures of globalisation and the insistence of the US, as we see in the events in north Africa, that we live up to our responsibilities as Europeans. It is inevitable that Europe’s role will grow, but it is also inevitable that these matters, at least in the first instance, will be handled intergovernmentally, I suspect for quite a period. Therefore, it is very important that such a mechanism as proposed exists.
We support the committee’s recommendations on structure. They seem to provide for an efficient and cost-effective body. We welcome the efforts of the noble Lord, Lord Roper, to achieve consensus on these matters. I would say that the essence of the position should be that, first, this should be an EU-led body. That does not preclude having observers, but the primary focus should be the European Union, and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, on that point. Secondly, the primacy within the body of national parliamentarians should be absolutely clear-cut. Thirdly—and here I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Jopling—the meetings should be in Brussels, because that is where we are most likely to get engagement with the key people. There should not be some fancy gallivanting off to the Azores, or elsewhere. Fourthly, because the meetings should be in Brussels, I think one has to be careful about how many Members of the European Parliament one tolerates within this new institution. I spent a lot of time rather enjoyably in the convention that was set up to discuss the EU constitutional treaty. It was a great innovation in that convention that there were representatives of national parliaments there, but they got rather quickly overwhelmed by the Brussels bubble. You have to watch that something that meets in Brussels does not become dominated by those who are based in Brussels.
Those are the principles on which I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Roper, will represent us in the meetings next week. We support this recommendation. This new body should be more than mere tokenism; we want it to be effective and serious. We hope that he will be able to come up with a consensus that meets our concerns.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, I join in the congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Roper, on both bringing forward this Motion and for presiding over this excellent report and, indeed, if I may say so more widely, for the way that he administers his very influential and effective duties in the EU Committee structure, which are of enormous benefit not only to this House but to general debate on the pattern and development of all European Union affairs.
I also find myself ready to endorse almost everything that the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, said. He rightly emphasised the intergovernmental nature and how crucial it was that it should be preserved in this vital area. The only point where things slightly jarred was when he mentioned his work on the constitutional treaty. A shadow passed through my memory as I recalled that unhappy episode that, alas, did not lead to fruitful results. For the rest, the noble Lord has rightly endorsed some sensible proposals.
The Government attach significant importance to the issue of parliamentary scrutiny of the EU’s common security and defence policy and want to ensure that the cross-European parliamentary debate on European defence issues, performed currently—and for the next few months—by the WEU Assembly, continues. Inter-parliamentary discussion serves to enhance and enlighten the national scrutiny work of Parliaments and complements the breadth of knowledge that already exists in this House. This can only be a good thing; I am unambiguous about that.
Let me be clear to your Lordships about the Government’s role in this process. In March last year, Governments decided to close up the Western European Union, the bulk of its functions having already transferred to the European Union. I share my noble friend Lord Jopling’s tinge of nostalgia, since it seems to me that the WEU was part of our lives in at least the last three or four decades of the previous century. Many of us regard it as a familiar part of the European Union landscape, but times pass and the decision to close it up has been taken.
In doing so, we recognised the value of the continuing inter-parliamentary debate on European defence and security so, to ensure that a future forum could be established to facilitate that, we have worked to help discussion with interested parliamentarians on how this might be taken forward. During those discussions, we set out the Government's preferences for such a body, but it is obviously for national European parliamentarians to decide the form that future scrutiny arrangements should take. It is certainly not for the Government to dictate the terms; that would be quite wrong.
The Government's priorities in this process are clear. First, we believe in the primacy of national parliamentary scrutiny of the EU’s common foreign security policy. That reflects the policy’s intergovernmental nature, which we have all emphasised, and within it, the common security and defence policy. These are intergovernmental matters and, given the role played by national parliaments, there is no need for any new arrangements to involve expanding the European Parliament’s competence to scrutinise CFSP. While the European Parliament has a role, as is recognised in the report, we believe that an inter-parliamentary body better reflects the intergovernmental nature of CFSP.
Secondly, we believe that any new arrangements should be better suited to supporting and informing the national security process. They should capitalise on the expertise of relevant parliamentarians in this policy area and allow for a free and open exchange of information among European states.
Thirdly, new arrangements need to demonstrate value for money to the taxpayer, as many of your Lordships have emphasised. Given the current financial pressures facing Europe and all its member states, we support the proposal in the EU Committee report that any future mechanism for inter-parliamentary dialogue on CSDP should operate with the minimum possible cost and bureaucracy. The UK’s current annual subscription to the WEU is €2.3 million. While the WEU Assembly played a useful role in engaging views from across Europe, we and other WEU council members believe that this inter-parliamentary debating function can be delivered much more efficiently outside the WEU structures. The new body, as envisaged in the EU Committee report, will operate at a fraction of the current cost and, more appropriately, will be paid for by national parliaments, not Governments.
The Government believe that the new arrangements should include third states outside the 27 members of the European Union, as the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, and others have referred to. One of the major strengths of the CSDP is its ability to draw support from outside the EU. The report acknowledges that. We welcome that it extends a standing invitation to EU candidate countries, of which there are five at the moment—including, as the noble Lord, Lord Roper, says, the important candidate country of Turkey—but we remain convinced that non-EU European NATO members such as Norway should also receive a standing invitation. European defence policy and NATO share common political and security interests. Norway in particular has provided valuable contributions to EU operations and is currently an associate member of the WEU. We can see no reason why its inclusion in future arrangements should be anything other than permanent, and we hope that the decision that the noble Lord mentioned will go forward. We ask: why slam down the door so dismissively on good friends and a valuable contributor to European defence?
In this policy area we see a real value in inter-parliamentary collective debate that informs the national security process of EU member states. The European Union Committee report is an important and valuable step towards developing practical, low-cost and inclusive arrangements that will benefit parliamentarians across Europe, and I urge your Lordships’ House to back it fully.
Lord Roper
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate and have made helpful contributions to our consideration of this topic. As the Minister said in his closing remarks, Norway has already played a very active part in a number of the missions of the CSDP so, whether this should be automatic or whether it should be the norm, by convention it would always be invited. We have kept the model as it is in the report because that is the practice in COSAC; that body has a framework in the protocol to the treaty. To make that a right could lead to problems. However, we believe that Norway should be invited on every occasion, and I will certainly make that point clear when we have the discussions next week.
It was quite interesting that the noble Lords, Lord Davies and Lord Jopling, had different ideas as to whether the body should be larger or smaller. At the moment, given the pressures on budgets, it is going to be a case of keeping the size down. If we eventually move into a situation where more resources are available for inter-parliamentary co-operation, the possibility of having larger meetings from time to time of the kind that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, referred to should be considered.
Lord Davies of Stamford
The figure of six is probably right but I would be perfectly happy with four; I do not feel strongly about that. My suggestion was that in addition to that there could be a rather more informal occasion where a rather larger number of people could take part for the sake of informing a wider range of people in all national parliaments, including our own, about the current agenda of these important discussions.
Lord Roper
I noticed that. However, I think that the issue at the moment is the impact of the present period of austerity on the budgets of national parliaments, as we discussed at the Speakers’ conference last year. The impact is such that one has some difficulty in making proposals for too much of that at the moment. Nevertheless, the idea should be retained and brought forward when there are more possibilities.
I am grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Dykes. I also very much appreciate the helpful advice—based on his great experience of inter-parliamentary co-operation in very many of these bodies—of the noble Lord, Lord Jopling. As for the issue of four rather than six, we say “a maximum of six”. Some of the unicameral parliaments—Malta, for example—never send more than two or three members to COSAC even though they are entitled to send six. One will not have six from everywhere. We have had informal discussions with our colleagues from the House of Commons, where there is a wish to send someone from the Foreign Affairs Committee, the Defence Committee and the European Scrutiny Committee. It would not necessarily be the case, as the noble Lord said, that this House would need to have three. However, if we were to restrict the number to four, there would be a feeling not only in the House of Commons but in some of the other parliaments that it was too restrained. We will obviously have to consider this matter with care next week.
I hope that we will be able to achieve the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, for 12 members from the European Parliament. It is certainly a matter to be considered. As for his point on the secretariat, the COSAC secretariat has always had someone from the European Parliament as one of the members. It would only happen in that way and as part of the general secretariat, rather than as the European Parliament coming in and providing it, as was at one time suggested.
As the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, will see, we have in the report a “no committees” point, at point 15 on page 9. At point 18, on page 10, we take up the point that he made about the need for technical and military advice from time to time. We will certainly examine how that can be done.
I was grateful for the support from the two Front Benches. The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, was—alas—only too briefly a member of the committee. Interestingly enough, however, in that short time, he was with us when we agreed this report.
Part of the problem with the European Parliament is that although we talk about the Lisbon treaty, there are in fact two treaties. Most of the stuff concerning the CFSP, the CSDP and the treaty which is purely inter-governmental is in the Treaty on European Union. That is of course what this is dealing with. On the other hand, if you turn to Part 5 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, you will see a great wodge of other external activities of the European Union for which the European Parliament has responsibility and on which its external affairs committee legitimately takes the lead. That is appropriate as those activities are dealt with on a Community basis. However, the European Parliament would like to try to blur the distinctions, as it were, between the two treaties. The point we will be making next week is that that distinction must be maintained as it is made clear in one of the declarations that the relevant treaty will give the European Parliament no more power in the field of common foreign and security policy.
I agree with the noble Lords, Lord Liddle and Lord Howell, that it is highly desirable to have the meeting in Brussels. We have left a certain amount of discretion in this regard as a presidency should have some power but we trust that Brussels will be seen as the norm for all the reasons that were given. I was very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Howell, for his remarks. I have nothing further to say in that regard except that we were extremely grateful for the help we received from his right honourable friend the Minister for Europe, Mr Lidington, in the informal conversations which went on between committees of this House and of the other place in preparing the two parallel reports on this subject. We are very conscious of the point he made about the need to obtain value for money. That very much goes back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Jopling.
As I say, I am very grateful for the comments that have been made and I shall certainly take them with me when I go to Brussels next week.