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Oral Answers to Questions
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Philip Boswell (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (SNP)
1. What assessment her Department has made of the cost implications for private businesses of compliance with the proposed requirements of the draft Investigatory Powers Bill.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
The draft Investigatory Powers Bill has been drafted in close consultation with industry, and the estimated cost to the public purse of implementing its provisions will continue to be refined as we hold more detailed discussions with industry on implementation. It would not be appropriate to expect telecommunications companies to meet the costs themselves and, as now, full cost recovery will apply to operational costs, including those associated with new obligations under the Bill.
Philip Boswell
The Select Committee on Science and Technology warned that the Bill risks undermining our strongly performing tech sector because of uncertainty about the costs of complying with the new legislation. Will the Secretary of State assure us that UK businesses will not be placed at a commercial disadvantage compared with overseas competitors?
Mrs May
I can assure the hon. Gentleman of that and, as I said in my answer to his initial question, we will ensure that full cost recovery applies to operational costs for any companies that have, for example, notices issued to them. It is clear that that is what we have done as a Government in the past and what previous Governments have done, and we will continue to do it.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
Will the Home Secretary look carefully at the recommendations from the Joint Committee on the draft Investigatory Powers Bill on the definition of internet connection records? We were very clear that greater clarity is needed on the definition to allow the private sector fully to cost its proposals.
Mrs May
I thank the right hon. Gentleman and the other Members of this House and of the other place who sat on the Committee and did an excellent job of producing a well-thought-through and careful report. We will of course carefully consider the issue of definition. We are looking at all three of the reports from the Science and Technology Committee, the Intelligence and Security Committee and the Joint Committee and we will make revised Bill proposals in due course.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
On the specific issue of private businesses, will the Home Secretary outline what recent discussions she and her Ministers have had on that subject with the devolved Administrations?
Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (SNP)
2. If she will make it her policy to reduce the financial threshold for family visas.
Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP)
10. If she will make it her policy to reduce the financial threshold for family visas.
The Minister for Immigration (James Brokenshire)
The minimum income threshold of £18,600 for sponsoring a partner under the family immigration rules ensures that couples wishing to establish their family life in the UK do not place burdens on the taxpayer and helps promote integration. It has been considered by the courts and upheld by the Court of Appeal.
Margaret Ferrier
The Joint Council for the Welfare of Immigrants has said that these rules discriminatorily affect women, 55% of whom earn less than £18,600, compared with 27% of men. The rules also disadvantage young people. What action will the Home Secretary take to reduce these unfair rules?
James Brokenshire
The threshold was set as a consequence of advice from the Migration Advisory Committee, which carefully considered the level of income in terms of it not being a burden on the taxpayer. The gross median earnings of all employees in Scotland in 2014 were £21,725—higher than that threshold. Issues of legal challenge have obviously been raised by the Court of Appeal. They were considered carefully and the threshold was upheld.
Martyn Day
The Secretary of State will have seen Amira’s story, reported by the BBC this morning. She fled Syria and gave birth to her son in the UK, but under the Government’s family visa rules, her husband, a Syrian national, is unable to join them here simply because they cannot afford the visa fees. Will the Secretary of State tell us where this British national should go to enjoy her family life? Her husband’s home country of Syria?
James Brokenshire
Various different routes could be available. We have the family reunion route, which might apply in these circumstances. Obviously, I am not familiar with all the issues he highlights but, equally, the Government are under certain duties regarding the protection of the welfare of children. This was considered by the court and upheld.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
Although I take the point made so eloquently by my right hon. Friend about the burden on the taxpayer, to what extent do we take into account charges made by other countries to British nationals hoping to emigrate to them?
James Brokenshire
My hon. Friend makes the point about different immigration systems in different parts of the world. We have taken considered advice from the Migration Advisory Committee, looking at costs and at those burdens to see that someone does not place a burden on the UK taxpayer. Obviously, it is for other countries to assess what is appropriate in their own systems.
Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)
The financial threshold for family visas is causing particular distress to one of my constituents, who cannot work the hours required because she is a carer for her vulnerable child. This means my constituent is living without her husband and the child is living without his father. Does the Minister acknowledge that he is at risk of creating a generation of children whose only contact with one of their parents will be via Skype?
James Brokenshire
No, I do not accept that, and these issues of the welfare of the child are absolutely part of our consideration. This matter was considered by the Court of Appeal and our approach was firmly upheld. When the threshold was set in November 2011, the MAC gave the lower threshold of £18,600 but also advised that the threshold could have been set as high as £25,700. The Government reflected and set the current level, which has been upheld by the courts.
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
The Minister mentions the Court of Appeal, but of course the matter is not entirely settled because this week the Supreme Court will hear the cases of two British nationals who cannot meet the tough financial rules that would allow their non-European Union spouses to come to live with them. The hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq) mentioned Skype. According to the Children’s Commissioner for England, 15,000 British children are growing up in Skype families, where the only contact they have with one parent is via Skype. How can the Minister justify the stress and anxiety caused to these children by the inflexible and unjust rules?
James Brokenshire
I do not accept the characterisation that the hon. and learned Lady presents—indeed, I do not recognise the number she proffers. This is about ensuring good integration, which is part of the overall requirement in relation to language. This is about not only not imposing a burden on the taxpayer but about promoting integration, and we believe the policy is effective in doing that.
Joanna Cherry
Last year, the Conservative think-tank, Bright Blue, called on the Government to change these rules, noting
“the significant contribution millions of low paid Britons make to our economy and society, as well as the value of having families living together in the same country.”
If the Minister will not listen to the Opposition, will he at least listen to a think-tank from his own party and get rid of these rules, which discriminate against hard-working families?
James Brokenshire
I say again that we do not believe the rules are discriminatory in the way the hon. and learned Lady suggests. The system is in place to ensure good integration. It ensures that people are not a burden on the taxpayer, and I would have thought she recognised that as being a positive aspect of the policy. If people come here, contribute and settle, we welcome that, but the rules have been set in the way they have, this has been upheld by the courts and we will continue to underline those key themes.
Anna Turley (Redcar) (Lab/Co-op)
3. What resources her Department provides for security measures at UK ports.
Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
16. What resources her Department provides for security measures at UK ports.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Border Force carries out 100% checks of all arriving passengers on scheduled services. It works closely with other law enforcement organisations to deliver effective and intelligence-led responses to a range of security threats. Officers use high-tech equipment and an array of search techniques to combat immigration crime, and detect banned and restricted goods.
Anna Turley
I thank the Home Secretary for that answer. Last September, seven men and five children were found in a container in Teesport in my constituency, just three weeks after 20 illegal immigrants were found in South Shields. My local Border Force is facing cuts of about a quarter of its front-line staff, so how can she reassure me that these cuts are not damaging the safety and security of ports outside London and the south-east?
Mrs May
I can reassure the hon. Lady about that, because the approach we are taking comes across in a number of ways. We are looking not only to introduce new technology in Border Force but to ensure that it can operate flexibly and base its activities much more on an intelligence-led approach, so that we can target where the staff need to be. This Government have also enhanced our ability to deal with organised immigration crime through the creation of the organised immigration crime taskforce. The National Crime Agency, set up by the last coalition Government, is also taking this issue seriously and is acting on it.
Mike Kane
There are 10 electronic passport gates at Manchester airport in my constituency. The Department is unable to tell me how many people travel through them, how many rejections there have been and how often they malfunction. Does the Home Secretary agree that that is one of the gaps identified by the National Audit Office, which should be looked into?
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
20. I have been trying to find out for a very long time through written questions how many people arrive at UK airports without valid travel documents, and I am very surprised that nobody seems able to give me an answer. Can the Minister give me an answer today, and, if not, will she take action to find out that important information?
Mrs May
I can tell my hon. Friend that 18,000 individuals were refused entry at the border in 2014, and that they included those who were travelling on invalid documentation. When someone comes to the UK border they are subject to a range of checks. Officers at the border are trained to detect forged documents. Steps are also taken to intercept those who do not have the correct documents before they travel so that they do not actually reach the border in the first place.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
May I congratulate the Home Secretary on her wise words about the value of EU membership in protecting the safety and security of this country? Even though that is the case—and I agree with her—may we have more specific focus on the quieter ports and airports that are used by smuggling gangs?
Mrs May
As I said in response to the hon. Member for Redcar (Anna Turley), Border Force takes a more intelligence-led approach to such issues, which means it can be flexible in deploying staff at different ports. That is precisely because it recognises that we need not only to focus on one or two ports, but to have that flexibility across a range of ports.
Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)
One of the most powerful arguments for the UK remaining in the EU is that we need and rely on a strong EU co-ordinated approach to security, including at our borders and our ports. As the Secretary of State and I know well, we rely 24/7 on EU criminal justice and security measures. In those circumstances, I assume that the Home Office has carried out a risk assessment of the impact of UK withdrawal from the EU on security at UK ports. Where can members of the public who have not yet decided how to vote in the forthcoming referendum access the conclusions of that risk assessment?
Mrs May
I am not sure whether that is parliamentary language for me to repeat in relation to the hon. and learned Gentleman. None the less, he can rest assured that arguments in relation to those matters will be fully set out for people over the coming months. He will know from his involvement in a different capacity before coming to this House one of the arguments that I put regarding issues such as the operation of various justice and home affairs measures. As a Government, we have set out very clearly the benefits of being part of those measures.
Keir Starmer
Tony Smith, interim head of the UK Border Force from 2012 to 2013, said today that a vote to leave the EU would pose significant policy and operational issues for Border Force, which is already under huge pressure, not least because of budget cuts, year on year, for many years. In particular, he highlighted the fact that Border Force staff would have to carry out more stringent checks on EU citizens. Will the Secretary of State confirm today that, far from reducing those levels of concern, Border Force will in fact face even more cuts, year on year, for the foreseeable future?
Mrs May
What I am happy to say to the hon. and learned Gentleman is that anyone who comes to the UK border will be stringently checked. We are doing that on a much more intelligence-led basis in looking at individuals who might be of concern. Yes, he is right: we have interactions with other member states in the European Union through the use of things such as Schengen Information System II to ensure that we are able to identify people of concern who are coming across the border. Border Force’s other operations are not about people but about restricted and illegal goods being brought into the UK. The intelligence-led approach can be particularly helpful in identifying areas of concern and whether action is being taken appropriately.
William Wragg (Hazel Grove) (Con)
4. What assessment she has made of the effectiveness of police and crime commissioners in reducing the level of crime.
Alberto Costa (South Leicestershire) (Con)
13. What assessment she has made of the effectiveness of police and crime commissioners in reducing the level of crime.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Elected police and crime commissioners are providing accountable visible leadership and making a real difference to policing locally. Overall, PCCs have presided over a reduction in crime of more than a quarter since their introduction, according to the independent Crime Survey for England and Wales.
William Wragg
I thank my right hon. Friend for her reply. What assessment has her Department made of the possibility of conflicts of interest arising if police and crime commissioners hold high office in local government, including that of mayor, and what steps have been taken to safeguard against that?
Mrs May
A good scrutiny process is available through police and crime panels to look at potential conflicts of interest. That process is enshrined in law and is undertaken. It is important that when any area looks at the potential for amalgamating roles, such as the amalgamation in the Greater Manchester area of the role of police and crime commissioner with, it is predicted, that of mayor, it is important that there is full discussion and consideration of all aspects to ensure that, whatever role the individual or individuals play, they can continue to do so properly without conflict of interest, and ensure that the best service is delivered.
Alberto Costa
My local Leicestershire police force recently received a positive inspection report from Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary. Will my right hon. Friend join me in praising the work of the Leicestershire chief constable, Simon Cole, and the Conservative police and crime commissioner, Sir Clive Loader, in their efforts to fight crime, specifically the chief constable’s national work on the Prevent programme?
Mrs May
I am happy to extend congratulations, as I am sure everyone in the House is, on the excellent work of the police in Leicestershire, under both the chief constable and the police and crime commissioner, Sir Clive Loader, who has done an excellent job but is sadly stepping down at the forthcoming election. I would like to thank him for the work he has done in his first term as police and crime commissioner.
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)
19. The main problem that the South Yorkshire police and crime commissioner faces is the shortfall in his budget, which will lead to 250 police jobs being lost in 2016-17 as a result of police cuts, but it is made worse by the lack of certainty about future budgets, which makes rational planning difficult. Does the Home Secretary agree that PCCs could do their job better if their budget was set for the remainder of this Parliament, and what will she do about it?
Mrs May
The picture that the hon. Gentleman has set out of the South Yorkshire force is not one that I recognise. We have protected, if we take the police precept into account, police budgets across the period of the comprehensive spending review. I should have thought that he welcomed that, given that his Front-Bench team proposed that police budgets could be cut by 10%.
Liz McInnes (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab)
One type of crime that has not reduced is violence and abuse against retail staff. In fact, a recent report by the British Retail Consortium found that those crimes had gone up by 25%. Any level of violence against retail staff is unacceptable, but what steps will the Home Secretary take to enable police and crime commissioners to act to reduce that?
Mrs May
We are all concerned when we see violent acts of any sort, but for those retail staff who are subject to them that is a matter of serious concern. The operational response to those crimes and to the potential for such crime is for chief constables to look into. As I have seen in my own constituency, a number of retail chains have worked closely with local police to try to ensure that they provide extra support and security for their staff.
Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con)
Although I have had my differences at times with Alan Hardwick, the Lincolnshire police and crime commissioner, does my right hon. Friend agree that his record, along with that of Lincolnshire police, in reducing crime is exemplary, and is an example to all?
Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)
Given the Home Secretary’s reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield), has she seen the statement from the Northamptonshire police and crime commissioner to his police and crime panel on 2 February in which he says of the new funding formula:
“It is expected that this will transfer funding from the urban areas to more rural areas and Northamptonshire may benefit”?
Does that reflect Government policy, or is he just letting the cat out of the bag?
Mrs May
As I would have thought the hon. Gentleman would be aware, we have clearly said that the funding formula changes that we were proposing before Christmas are not going ahead. We are pausing that process and looking again at how we can develop a funding formula that reflects needs. If the hon. Gentleman looks at police forces across England and Wales, he will see that everybody—including the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, who is sitting next to him—has been very clear that the funding formula needs to change.
Mr Alan Mak (Havant) (Con)
5. What assessment the Government have made of the potential merits of the proposed duty on emergency services to collaborate.
Damian Green (Ashford) (Con)
9. What assessment the Government have made of the potential merits of the proposed duty on emergency services to collaborate.
The Minister for Policing, Crime and Criminal Justice (Mike Penning)
There are examples across the country of excellent collaboration between the emergency services, particularly the H3 project in Hampshire, where collaboration between the emergency services has driven efficiencies and a better service for the public. Police and crime commissioners will have a duty to collaborate when the Policing and Crime Bill currently before the House becomes law.
Mr Mak
Hampshire fire service and Hampshire police service share a joint headquarters building, resulting in financial efficiencies and a more joined-up service for my constituents. Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating both Hampshire emergency services on taking the lead in collaborative working?
Mike Penning
I had the honour and privilege of being in Hampshire recently and saw for myself the brilliant work being done between the emergency services. That is a result of the collaboration between the chief fire officer and the chief constable, as well as the police and crime commissioner doing excellent work to see that we have the right sort of emergency service for the 21st century.
Damian Green
Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is important that the new generation of police and crime commissioners who will be elected in a couple of months get behind this very important reform? Will he join me in welcoming the commitment of the excellent Conservative PCC candidate in Kent, Matthew Scott, and his strong desire to implement these vital reforms?
Mike Penning
I have seen what Matthew Scott is proposing to do when, as we on the Conservative Benches all hope, he becomes the police and crime commissioner. We need to ensure that we spend taxpayers’ money efficiently and well, and collaboration is the best way forward for that.
Mr Speaker
The hon. Lady looks so surprised. She is rarely a shy or retiring soul. If she is, she must overcome her shyness.
Kate Hoey
Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Minister is well aware that the fire and rescue services collaborate well all over the country, particularly with the ambulance trusts. Why does he consider it necessary for police and crime commissioners to take control of the fire services under the Bill? Surely the two organisations are so different in so many ways that collaboration is possible without the PCC running our fire services.
Mike Penning
The truth of the matter is that someone duly elected to run the service, as the PCC would be, is better than anybody seconded on to any committee. I am sure we all want efficient emergency services, and the fire service working closely with the ambulance service and the police is the way we would like to do that.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
Critical to collaboration between emergency services will be their communications networks. How much will the new emergency service communications network cost, and when will it be in place?
Mike Penning
We are currently going out to contract. There are bids out there, which are confidential. We know that the excellent Airwave system that we have had for many years needs replacing. It was very expensive and the replacement will be cheaper than Airwave.
Royston Smith (Southampton, Itchen) (Con)
Shortly the police and crime commissioners will be able to put forward a business case to take over the governance of fire and rescue services. My hon. Friend the Member for Havant (Mr Mak) pointed out what Hampshire already does. At present we have a commercial trading arm which completely pays for the governance of the fire and rescue authority. What business case can a police and crime commissioner put forward that would allow him to run that service?
Mike Penning
The local community may want a more efficient service, which could be the case in Hampshire. I accept that Hampshire is particularly good, but that is not the case all over the country. Even when I was in Hampshire, there were people asking me for more collaboration and more work to be done together, and that request came particularly from the front-line operatives, who are probably the most important people in all this.
Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)
Given the funding cuts to the police service and the fire and rescue services already budgeted for by this Government, can the Minister guarantee that placing fire and rescue services under PCC control will not lead to further cuts in the number of front-line firefighters?
Mike Penning
Thank goodness the Chancellor did not listen to Labour Front-Benchers when we looked at police funding to 2020, because they wanted a 10% cut, and there will be no cut. We must make sure that we have an efficient service—the sort of efficient service I would have liked to have had when I was in the fire service—and that will be going forward.
Will Quince (Colchester) (Con)
6. What assessment she has made of trends in the level of knife crime.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Karen Bradley)
Tackling knife crime is a priority for the Government. Latest police recorded crime figures show that knife crime is 14% lower than it was in June 2010. However, we recognise that there is more to do, and new actions to tackle knife crime will be set out in the forthcoming modern crime prevention strategy.
Will Quince
In Essex, the number of serious offences involving a knife rose 21% in the last recorded year. What action is my hon. Friend’s Department taking to tackle knife crime and address the gang violence that fuels it in so many cases?
Karen Bradley
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. I also congratulate him on the arrival of new baby Quince, in whose delivery I believe he was very involved. I am very aware of the concerns about knife crime in Essex, and I recently had a meeting with my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Sir Simon Burns)—I would be more than happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss precisely this issue. We are taking a range of steps, and earlier this month we supported 13 police forces, including Essex, that undertook co-ordinated action against knife crime.
Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)
Knife crime, like much other crime, is best dealt with pre-emptively and at the community and neighbourhood level. In Sussex, crime has gone up 8%, but Government inspectors said today that front-line neighbourhood and local policing is “routinely” being taken away. Will the Minister please look again at the issue of the 1,000 police officers and staff who are being taken from the frontline, which will further impact on neighbourhood policing?
Karen Bradley
May I start by congratulating Katy Bourne, who has been an excellent police and crime commissioner in Sussex? I met her recently, and we discussed the many steps she is taking to deal with crime. Obviously, the deployment of operational resources is a matter for the chief constable, in consultation with the police and crime commissioner. However, the hon. Gentleman should remember his vote in this House to cut police resources by 10%—something that Government Members disagreed with.
Amanda Solloway (Derby North) (Con)
Recently in Derby, a young man lost his life following a fatal stabbing in the city centre. Last year, knife crime rose across the UK for the first time in four years. What steps is the Department taking to tackle the issue and to discourage young individuals from carrying knives?
Karen Bradley
My hon. Friend is absolutely right: we need to educate young people and show them that carrying knives is not cool and not something they should be doing. They should understand that it is dangerous and that it can result in the loss of life. That is why we legislated in the last Parliament so that someone caught with a knife twice has a mandatory prison sentence. We are doing more work, and I would be more than happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss the specific issues in Derby, where I know there are concerns.
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
Has the Minister considered an amnesty? Amnesties have been implemented in the past to invite people to hand in their knives or other weapons, and that was very successful in the west midlands some years ago.
Karen Bradley
That is a matter for chief constables to determine. However, as I said, we have worked with 13 forces, and included in that work were knife amnesties.
Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con)
7. What recent discussions the Government have had with banks and industry bodies on steps to reduce fraud and cybercrime.
The Minister for Security (Mr John Hayes)
Discussions with banks and industry bodies have led to the recently announced Joint Fraud Taskforce. This is the first time that banks, police and Government have joined together to ensure that the public are aware of, and protected from, fraud. The taskforce’s mission is to counter the wicked work of fraudsters.
Sir David Amess
While I absolutely understand the difficulties in effectively policing the internet, financial scams—judging by my own parliamentary account—seem to be completely out of control, and the most vulnerable people are being targeted. Will my right hon. Friend therefore have another look at this issue to see whether there is some way we can bring these criminals to account?
Mr Hayes
Because we have taken a fresh look at this, as my hon. Friend recommends, we have launched the joint taskforce; we are continuing to support the Cyber Streetwise campaign, which makes people more aware of, and therefore more guarded about, fraud; and we invested £90 million on cyber-security in the previous Parliament and will invest £1.9 billion over the next five years. We take this seriously, not least, Mr Speaker, because, as you know, in the cyber-age I am a cyber-Minister—up to the minute, up to the mark and up to the job.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
Since the cyber-Minister is up to the mark, may I ask him about the activities of a website called Bestvalid, which was discovered recently selling the stolen bank details of 100,000 British citizens? Can he explain, as an up-to-the-minute cyber-Minister, how it was possible for this website to carry on for six months before being closed down, and how much of the £1.9 billion that he is targeting on cybercrime will be used proactively to close down sites of this kind?
Mr Hayes
The right hon. Gentleman knows, because his Select Committee has drawn attention to this in the past, that it is critically important that the Government work with all other agencies, including banks and private sector organisations, and the taskforce will be missioned to do that. It may be worth saying that this is summed up by the fact that the National Police Chiefs Council has publicly signed up to
“commit our full support to the objectives and actions of the…Taskforce”
to
“work in partnership to…protect the public from becoming victims of fraud and fraud scams, maximising opportunities to stop fraudsters from operating”,
in exactly the way he recommends.
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)
The cyber-Minister will know that people are more likely to be mugged online than in the street, with serious consequences for victims. After five years of the Government saying, “We cut police but we have cut crime”, will he confirm that, when 6 million cybercrimes are included in the statistics, the truth will be told that far from falling, crime is changing, and that our country now faces crime doubling just as this Government continue to cut the number of police officers?
Mr Hayes
The hon. Gentleman will be disappointed that I am going to say that he is right to draw attention to the scale of this problem. I remind him that we were the Government who made the decision to publish these statistics and to designate cybercrime in the way that we have, because until we appreciate the scale of the problem, we will not develop the solutions necessary to deal with it. As he will know, we are using some of the extra resource to set up the national cyber centre to co-ordinate work in this area.
Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab)
8. What steps she is taking to encourage police and crime commissioners to support early intervention programmes; and if she will make a statement.
The Minister for Policing, Crime and Criminal Justice (Mike Penning)
The Government have supported the first police early innovation leadership academy and provided grant funding for the Early Intervention Foundation. This is really interesting work being done to protect young children. Naturally we will help and encourage chief constables and PCCs up and down the country to help to reduce crime, support victims, and closely engage with their partner agencies, such as the foundation.
Mr Allen
The American comedian Eddie Cantor said, “If those currently on the most-wanted list had been the most wanted as children they would no longer be on the most-wanted list.” In that context, will the Minister welcome the work that his Department is doing with the Early Intervention Foundation in creating police leaders’ academies on early intervention, and will he ensure that funding is available so that every police and crime commissioner elected this year can attend such courses, as this is the best crime prevention measure we know?
Mike Penning
I praise the work of the Early Intervention Foundation; the work it does is very important. Other agencies also do really important work. We all know that if we can catch them young we can prevent people from turning into the types of criminals that sadly this society sees too often in our prisons.
Sir Eric Pickles (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)
Following the Government’s troubled families programme, there can be no doubt that early intervention works—it reduces petty crime, encourages school attendance, and gets people into jobs. However, it has become clear—this is why what the Minister is saying is very welcome—that without the active participation of the police such programmes are somewhat ineffectual, so I hope that we will ensure that every chief constable and every commissioner will regard this as a high priority.
Mike Penning
I am sure that every chief constable, police and crime commissioner and PCC candidate has heard exactly what my right hon. Friend has said. That is why we have put the money into the foundation and why we are doing a review of the early intervention academy for police leaders, so that we can have proof of the outcomes and let the money follow good resources.
Melanie Onn (Great Grimsby) (Lab)
Humberside police has 500 fewer officers than five years ago, across north-east Lincolnshire we have had a 38% rise in violent crime, and sexual offences are up 18%. Is it not the reality that early intervention is not a priority for the police on the ground and that it is being pushed on to ill-resourced local authorities?
Mike Penning
I am sure that the Whips Office wrote the hon. Lady’s question, because every single time we hear from the Labour party, it wants more money, and yet its Front Benchers want to cut funding to the police force—[Interruption.] That is the reality.
Tom Pursglove (Corby) (Con)
11. What the take-up of the TrackMyCrime service among police forces has been up to date.
The Minister for Policing, Crime and Criminal Justice (Mike Penning)
As I wrote earlier, four police forces currently use TrackMyCrime—Avon and Somerset, Kent, South Yorkshire and Humberside—with more to come. According to Minerva IT consortium, it will be made available to 22 forces, including Northampton.
Tom Pursglove
How successful has TrackMyCrime been in supporting victims of crime and keeping them up to date with investigations?
Mike Penning
I wrote my previous answer earlier, because I did not know what was going to be asked. The truth is that if all victims know exactly what is going on once they have reported a crime, they will have confidence in the criminal justice system. TrackMyCrime will help in that regard.
Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab)
12. What progress her Department has made on reviewing the status of poppers within the Psychoactive Substances Act 2016.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Karen Bradley)
The evidence-gathering stage of the review has begun. The Government are considering the next steps to ensure that the health and relationship benefits of poppers, and their risks, are fully assessed in an open and transparent manner.
Jeff Smith
Eighteen thousand police officers have been cut in the past five years. Is it really sensible to waste scarce police resources on enforcing a ban on poppers and unnecessarily criminalising users of a relatively harmless substance, particularly when the ban may be revoked in a few months?
Karen Bradley
I hope that the hon. Gentleman welcomed the Psychoactive Substances Act, because we do not know what effect such substances have on young people—they may cause death—so the blanket ban on them is incredibly important. We are committed to reviewing the benefits of poppers against the harms, to see whether they should be included.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
14. What assessment she has made of the effectiveness of the Modern Slavery Act 2015.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
The Modern Slavery Act received Royal Assent on 26 March 2015. It is too early to make a full assessment of the effectiveness of the Act, but I am pleased that key provisions are already having an impact. The ports have already been using the slavery and trafficking prevention orders to stop offences occurring, and some businesses have already published statements setting out what steps they have taken to prevent modern slavery in their global supply chains.
Jeremy Lefroy
In the “Strategic Plan 2015-2017”, the independent anti-slavery commissioner writes:
“The role that the private sector can play in the fight against slavery should not be underestimated.”
What assessment has the Home Secretary made of the effectiveness of the Act’s transparency and supply chain provisions for companies with turnovers of £36 million or more?
Mrs May
First, the independent anti-slavery commissioner is absolutely right, because this is not just about law enforcement and Government taking action in this area; it is also about working with the private sector and businesses. I am pleased that, although the first set of declarations in relation to supply chains will be compulsory from 31 March, a number of companies have already made those declarations. In a month or so, I will hold an event with companies to share good practice among them so that we can ensure that we are getting the best information out there, and then consumers can make their decisions.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
Despite some of the good measures in the Act, child trafficking is still taking place across the European Union, hidden within the scandal that is the migration crisis, which is engulfing the entire continent. What work is the Home Secretary doing with her colleagues across the European Union to make sure that the issue is adequately tackled across all 28 member states?
Mrs May
I am encouraging other member states to take the step that we took with the Modern Slavery Act and introduce new legislation. We and other member states are working on organised immigration crime and human trafficking. We have put resources into that and are working with a number of countries to identify the traffickers and to ensure that proper action is taken. The independent anti-slavery commissioner has made his expertise available to a number of countries across the European Union. That is of enormous benefit, because he is expert in this area.
Michael Tomlinson (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (Con)
23. Further to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy), will my right hon. Friend set out in more detail the importance of the transparency in supply chains provision in the Modern Slavery Act, and how it will be monitored?
Mrs May
The measure has two important impacts. First, it makes companies think about whether there is slavery in their supply chains. Secondly, their declarations of the action they have taken—or of the fact that they have taken no action—will be available to consumers, who will be able to make choices about which companies to do business with as a result. We are looking at a number of options for ensuring that that information is publicly available in one place.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
May I make the right hon. Lady aware of the excellent work of the Palm Cove Society in Headingley, in my constituency? I was shocked to hear about the extent of modern slavery in this country. Does she think that people are sufficiently aware of that, and what more can she do to highlight it?
Mrs May
We are aware of the work that the Palm Cove Society does. The hon. Gentleman is right; I think that most people are shocked to know that slavery takes place in this country, and they would be even more shocked to see the degree and extent of it. It is up to everybody in this House, not just the Government, to make people aware of that and aware of the action that they can take to stop it.
Ben Howlett (Bath) (Con)
15. What assessment the Government has made of the effectiveness of steps to tackle Daesh propaganda.
The Minister for Security (Mr John Hayes)
The Government are removing more than 4,000 pieces of terrorist-related content a month. We are also supporting community-based initiatives that provide credible, positive alternatives and challenge Daesh’s core communications. Those campaigns have generated online viewings of more than 15 million.
Ben Howlett
Daesh commits atrocities every day against Christians, gay people and others who do not agree with its way of life. What are the Government doing to communicate accurately those atrocities across the UK to prevent the spread of extremism, particularly among young people?
Mr Hayes
My hon. Friend is right. Yeats said:
“All empty souls tend toward extreme opinions.”
We have to challenge those extreme opinions at every turn. The UK Government’s “UK Against Daesh” Twitter channel highlights the hypocrisies, hyperbole and wicked calumnies of Daesh. We work with the community organisations that I described a moment ago, and 130 community-based projects were delivered in 2015, reaching 25,000 people. More than half those projects were delivered in schools and aimed at the young people whom we need to safeguard.
Mr Speaker
I am glad that even on this most solemn of matters, the right hon. Gentleman has been able, as always, to provide us with a poetical flourish.
Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)
T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Last week, I was in Washington at the five-country ministerial with my counterparts from the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand to discuss the threat we all face from extremism and terrorism—a threat that is real and growing. In 2014, Daesh in Syria and Iraq directed, inspired or enabled some 20 attacks in other countries worldwide. In 2015, there were almost 60 such attacks, as well as more than 200 attacks carried out by Daesh branches including those in Libya and Egypt.
This is a fight that cannot be won by acting in isolation. It is a global threat, which requires a global response. We must be more open to sharing intelligence with our partners and more proactive in offering our expertise. We must work at an international level to counter the twisted narrative peddled by Daesh and other terrorist organisations, and we must organise our own efforts more effectively to support vulnerable states and improve their ability to respond to the threat from terrorism. At the five-country ministerial, we made commitments to strengthen information sharing, enhance efforts to prevent the movement of terrorists and encourage social media companies to work more with Governments. This is the challenge of our generation, and it is one that we will win by working together.
Chris Green
I thank my right hon. Friend for her answer. Does she agree that the creation of the police and crime commissioner role was a great step in the right direction, and that it ought to change radically in future and take on more responsibilities?
Mrs May
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. It was important to create the role of a directly elected individual who is accountable to the public for local policing, but we called such individuals police and crime commissioners precisely because we wanted to see the role evolve. My right hon. Friend the Justice Secretary and I are already in discussion about how the role might evolve in relation to the rest of the criminal justice system.
Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)
May I commend the Home Secretary for her announcement this weekend and for her decision to put the national interest before self-interest, unlike others? When she began as Home Secretary, she took a Eurosceptic stance, opting out of dozens of EU measures, but she has since opted back in to many—most recently, on the sharing of fingerprinting and DNA. Is it fair to say that the realities of office have shown her the value of EU co-operation in tackling crime and terrorism, and changed her mind on Britain’s membership of the EU?
Mrs May
I have always been very clear about the value of co-operation when it is in the British national interest. We decided to propose to the House that we should opt back in to 35 measures in relation to protocol 36—justice and home affairs measures—precisely because we believed that they were in the national interest.
Andy Burnham
I think I will take that as a yes. Yesterday, on the “The Andrew Marr Show”, the Prime Minister was explicitly clear that our membership of the EU helps Britain fight terrorism, but within minutes he was directly contradicted by one of his own Cabinet Ministers, who claimed the UK’s EU membership made a Paris-style attack here more likely. This would be bad coming from UKIP, but coming from one of our most senior members of the Cabinet, it is downright irresponsible. Will the Home Secretary take this opportunity to reaffirm Government policy on this crucial issue and condemn this baseless scaremongering?
Mrs May
The Government’s position on this issue is very clear. As I have just indicated in answer to the first question the right hon. Gentleman asked me, I am very clear that there are many areas in which co-operation with other member states in the European Union is to our benefit in terms of the national security of this country and dealing with criminal matters. As I indicated in response to earlier questions, we do of course take security at our border very seriously, and that is why we have the checks we do at our border.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
T3. The Government have agreed to work with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees to create a new initiative to help resettle unaccompanied children from conflict regions. Will the Minister confirm when the initiative will begin and say which organisations the Government will work with to help identify those children?
The Minister for Immigration (James Brokenshire)
Yes, we are working with the UNHCR on the development of a new initiative to settle unaccompanied children from conflict regions outside the EU. Discussions are ongoing with the UNHCR—we have had a roundtable meeting already with a number of non-governmental organisations—and we will obviously come back to the House shortly, when our consideration has concluded.
Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP)
T2. Following on in the trafficking vein, I want to ask a question about a constituent of mine. I cannot name her because of her vulnerability. She was human trafficked from Nigeria to the UK and held in domestic slavery in London, but escaped to my constituency over 10 years ago. She now has a family and a husband—her children were born in Scotland—but she cannot get indefinite leave to remain. The Home Office has not been at its most helpful. Will the Minister meet me to discuss this issue and see what can be done to help this family settle in Scotland?
James Brokenshire
The hon. Lady has raised what appears to be a very serious individual case. If I may, I will speak to the hon. Lady after this session to obtain more details, and we will obviously respond to her formally.
James Heappey (Wells) (Con)
T4. I have met a number of police officers in my constituency who have witnessed extreme trauma while on duty and have been diagnosed as suffering from mental illness or injury as a result. Yet the arrangements for their sick pay and their medical discharge and pension seem to be strikingly different from that of those who have suffered physical injury in the course of their duties. Does my right hon. Friend agree that, given the Government’s pursuit of parity of esteem between mental illness and physical illness, police forces should ensure that all injuries or illnesses attributable to service are supported in the same way?
Mrs May
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. Police officers are entitled to exactly the same sick leave and pay arrangements whether they suffer a mental or physical illness. Any requests for ill-health retirement are, similarly, subject to exactly the same test. It is the responsibility of chief constables to provide for that in their local policies. I am pleased to say that in October 2014 the Government allocated £8 million to the blue light programme to support the mental and physical wellbeing of emergency services personnel.
Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)
T5. The Government have always justified their cuts to policing on the basis that crime has not gone up. Since 2010, Greater Manchester police force has lost 1,664 officers, which is more than any other force. Recorded crime in Greater Manchester is now going up, and it is doing so faster than in any other metropolitan area. If crime continues to rise, will the Government reconsider their reductions in the number of front-line police officers, as would be reasonable?
The Minister for Policing, Crime and Criminal Justice (Mike Penning)
Let us go over this again. The Government have not reduced the number of police officers on the frontline. Actually, the percentage on the frontline has gone up. The one party that wanted to cut the police budget at the last election was the Labour party—a group of people we did not listen to.
Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
T7. What steps is the Secretary of State taking to ensure that police services continue reforms better to protect the public?
Mrs May
We are taking a number of steps. A piece of work is being undertaken to look at where capabilities would best lie in terms of police reform. I addressed a conference of chief constables and police and crime commissioners earlier this year about this matter. I am happy to say that I have had discussions on precisely this matter with my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith). If he becomes Mayor of London, I am assured that he will continue the reforms in the Metropolitan police.
Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (UKIP)
T6. The Europol chief, Rob Wainwright, has warned that up to 5,000 ISIS fighters are already in the EU. How does the Home Secretary feel that being in the EU makes us safer?
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that what is important for the United Kingdom in this respect is that we can be in the European Union and continue with the border controls that we have, unlike the countries that are in Schengen. We will never be in Schengen. We will maintain security checks at the border, which is the right thing for us to do.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
The Prime Minister has claimed that he has delivered on his promise that
“if an EU jobseeker has not found work within 6 months, they will be required to leave”—
a promise that he made to JCB workers on 28 November 2014. However, in reply to my written question, number 17574, in December last year, the Immigration Minister admitted that EU migrants can
“keep the status of jobseeker for longer than six months”.
Will the Home Secretary clarify who is right—the Prime Minister or the Immigration Minister?
James Brokenshire
I think we can safely say that the Prime Minister is right. In a few moments, my hon. Friend will hear precisely how the Prime Minister has set out the agenda in relation to welfare benefits.
Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)
T9. I was proud to join Housing for Women last week to celebrate the first anniversary of its operating the women’s refuge in Merton. It supported 38 women and 45 children in 2015. Unfortunately, not all refuges are in the same position, with 30 closing over the last year and 42% of rape crisis centres not having money beyond next month. Will the Home Secretary do everything she can to ensure that no woman is forced to return home to a violent partner and, possibly, to her death?
Mrs May
I remember the days when the hon. Lady and I served on the council of the London Borough of Merton. She took an interest in domestic violence and support for its victims and survivors then, and she continues to do so now. Of course, the Government have put extra money into refuges and supported various domestic violence services. It is a terrible crime and we need to deal with it.
Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con)
What assessment has been made of the number of connections police forces have made to the child abuse image database since it launched?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Karen Bradley)
My hon. Friend raises the very important issue of the child abuse image database, which was introduced by the Government and is leading the world in tackling online indecent images of children. We now have all 43 forces connected to the image database and are starting to see real results in protecting children.
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
Where police and fire and rescue services decide to amalgamate regionally, will the Secretary of State give a guarantee that she will not in any way, shape or form allow the services they provide to be mutualised or privatised?
Mrs May
The reason for enabling police and crime commissioners to bring together policing and fire and rescue services is to be able to offer enhanced services. In looking at a decision to be taken at a local level, a business case will have to be made for bringing them together.
European Council
(8 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on the agreement reached in Brussels last week, but first let me say a word about the migration crisis, which was also discussed at the European Council. We agreed we needed to press ahead with strengthening the EU’s external borders to ensure that non-refugees are returned promptly, and to back the new mission to disrupt the criminal gangs working between Greece and Turkey, who are putting so many people’s lives at risk. I made it clear that Britain will continue to contribute, and will step up our contribution, in all these areas.
Turning to Britain’s place in Europe, I have spent the past nine months setting out the four areas where we need reform, and meeting all the other 27 EU Heads of State and Government to reach an agreement that delivers concrete reforms in all four areas. Let me take each in turn.
First, British jobs and British business depend on being able to trade with Europe on a level playing field, so we wanted: new protections for our economy; to safeguard the pound; to promote our industries, including our financial services industries; to protect British taxpayers from the costs of problems in the eurozone; and to ensure that we have a full say over the rules of the single market while remaining outside the eurozone. We got all those things. We have not just permanently protected the pound and our right to keep it, but ensured that we cannot be discriminated against. Responsibility for supervising the financial stability of the UK will always remain in the hands of the Bank of England. We have ensured that British taxpayers will never be made to bail out countries in the eurozone. We have made sure that the eurozone cannot act as a bloc to undermine the integrity of the free trade single market and we have guaranteed British business will never face any discrimination for being outside the eurozone. So, for example, our financial services firms—our No. 1 services export, employing over a million people—can never be forced to relocate inside the eurozone if they want to undertake complex trades in euros, just because they are based in the UK.
These protections are not just set out in a legally binding agreement. All 28 member states were also clear that the treaties would be changed to incorporate the protections for the UK as an economy inside the EU but outside the eurozone. We also agreed a new mechanism to enable non-eurozone countries to raise issues of concern, and we won the battle to ensure that this could be triggered by one country alone. Of course, none of these protections would be available if we were to leave the EU.
Secondly, we wanted commitments to make Europe more competitive, creating jobs and making British families more financially secure. Again, we got them. Europe will complete the single market in key areas that will really help Britain: in services, making it easier for thousands of UK service-based companies, like IT firms, to trade in Europe; in capital, so UK start-ups can access more sources of finance for their businesses; and in energy, allowing new suppliers into our energy market, meaning lower energy bills for families across the country.
We have secured commitments to complete trade and investment agreements with the fastest growing and most dynamic economies around the world, including the USA, Japan and China, as well as our Commonwealth allies India, New Zealand and Australia. These deals could add billions of pounds and thousands of jobs to our economy every year. And, of course, they build on the deals we already have with 53 countries around the world through which Britain has benefited from the negotiating muscle that comes from being part of the world’s largest trading bloc.
Country after country has said to me that of course they could sign trade deals with Britain, but they also said that their priority would be trade deals with the EU. By their nature, these EU deals would be bigger and better, and a deal with Britain would not even be possible until we had settled our position outside the EU. So, for those Members who care about signing new trade deals outside the EU, we would be looking at years and years of delay.
Last but by no means least, on competitiveness one of the biggest frustrations for British business is the red tape and bureaucracy, so we agreed there will now be targets to cut the total burden of EU regulation on business. This builds on the progress we have already made, with the Commission already cutting the number of new initiatives by 80%. It means that the cost of EU red tape will be going down, not up.
Of course, if we were to leave the EU but ultimately achieve a deal with full access to the single market, like Norway, we would still be subject to all of the EU’s regulation when selling into Europe—but with no say over the rules. As the former Europe spokesman for the Norwegian Conservative party said:
“If you want to run Europe, you must be in Europe. If you want to be run by Europe, feel free to join Norway in the European Economic Area.”
Thirdly, we wanted to reduce the very high level of migration from within the EU by preventing the abuse of free movement and preventing our welfare system from acting as a magnet for people to come to our country. After the hard work of the Home Secretary, we have secured new powers against criminals from other countries, including powers to stop them coming here in the first place, and powers to deport them if they are already here. We agreed longer re-entry bans for fraudsters and people who collude in sham marriages, and an end to the frankly ridiculous situation where EU nationals can avoid British immigration rules when bringing their families from outside the EU.
This agreement broke new ground, with the European Council agreeing to reverse decisions from the European Court of Justice. We have also secured a breakthrough agreement for Britain to reduce the unnatural draw that our benefits system exerts across Europe. We have already made sure that EU migrants cannot claim the new unemployment benefit, universal credit, while looking for work. Those coming from the EU who have not found work within six months can now be required to leave. At this Council, we agreed that EU migrants working in Britain can be prevented from sending child benefit home at UK rates. This will apply first to new claimants, and then to existing claimants from the start of 2020.
We also established a new emergency brake so that EU migrants will have to wait four years until they have full access to our benefits. People said it was impossible to achieve real change in this area and that a four-year restriction on benefits was completely out of the question—yet that is what we have done. Once activated, the emergency brake will be in place for seven years. If it begins next year, it will still be operating in 2024 and there will be people who will not get full benefits until 2028. All along, we have said that people should not be able to come here and get access to our benefits system straight away—no more something for nothing, and that is what we have achieved.
I am sure that the discussion about welfare and immigration will be intense, but let me make this point. No country outside the EU has agreed full access to the single market without accepting paying into the EU and accepting free movement. In addition, our new safeguards lapse if we vote to leave the EU, so we might end up with free movement but without these new protections.
The fourth area in which we wanted to make significant changes was to protect our country from further European political integration and to increase powers for our national Parliament. Ever since we joined, Europe has been on the path to something called ever closer union. It means a political union. We have never liked it; we have never wanted it. Now Britain will be permanently and legally excluded from it. The text says that the treaties will be changed to make it clear that
“the Treaty references to ever closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom.”
So as a result of this negotiation, Britain can never be part of a European superstate.
The Council also agreed that ever closer union, which has been referred to in previous judgments of the European Court of Justice, does not offer a legal basis for extending the scope of any provisions of the treaties or EU secondary legislation. People used to talk about a multi-speed Europe; now we have a clear agreement that different countries are not only travelling at different speeds but ultimately heading to different destinations. I would argue that is a fundamental change in the way this organisation works.
We have also strengthened the role of this House and all national Parliaments. We have already passed a referendum Act—the European Union Referendum Act 2015—to make sure that no powers can be handed to Brussels without the explicit consent of the British people in a referendum. Now, if Brussels comes up with legislation that we do not want, we can get together with other Parliaments and block it with a red card. We have a new mechanism finally to enforce the principle that, as far as possible, powers should sit here in Westminster, not in Brussels, so now, every year, the European Union must go through the powers that it exercises and work out which are no longer needed and should be returned to nation states.
In recent years, we have seen attempts to bypass our opt-out on justice and home affairs by bringing forward legislation under a different label. For example, attempts to interfere with the way the UK authorities handle fraud were made under the guise of EU budget legislation. The agreement at last week’s Council ensures that that can never happen again.
The reforms that we have secured will be legally binding in international law, and will be deposited as a treaty at the United Nations. They cannot be unpicked without the agreement of Britain and every other EU country. As I have said, all 28 member states were also clear that the treaties would be changed to incorporate the protections for the UK as an economy outside the eurozone, and our permanent exclusion from ever closer union.
Our special status means that Britain can have the best of both worlds. We will be in the parts of Europe that work for us, influencing the decisions that affect us, in the driving seat of the world’s biggest single market, and with the ability to take action to keep our people safe; but we will be out of the parts of Europe that do not work for us. We will be out of the euro, out of the eurozone bailouts, out of the passport-free, no-borders Schengen area, and permanently and legally protected from ever being part of an ever closer union.
Of course, there is still more to do. I am the first to say that there are still many ways in which this organisation needs to improve, and the task of reforming Europe does not end with last week’s agreement. However, with the special status that this settlement gives us, I do believe the time has come to fulfil another vital commitment that the Government made, and hold a referendum. Today I am commencing the process set out under our European Union Referendum Act to propose that the British people decide our future in Europe through an in/out referendum on Thursday 23 June. The Foreign Secretary has laid in both Houses a report setting out the new settlement that the Government have negotiated. That fulfils the duty to publish information which is set out in section 6 of the European Union Referendum Act. As the Cabinet agreed on Saturday, the Government’s position will be to recommend that Britain remain in a reformed European Union.
This is a vital decision for the future of our country, and I believe we should also be clear that it is a final decision. An idea has been put forward that if the country voted to leave, we could have a second renegotiation and perhaps another referendum. I will not dwell on the irony that some people who want to vote to leave apparently want to use a “leave” vote to remain, but such an approach also ignores more profound points about democracy, diplomacy and legality. This is a straight democratic decision—staying in or leaving—and no Government can ignore that. Having a second renegotiation followed by a second referendum is not on the ballot paper. For a Prime Minister to ignore the express will of the British people to leave the EU would be not just wrong, but undemocratic.
On the diplomacy, the idea that other European countries would be ready to start a second negotiation is for the birds. Many are under pressure for what they have already agreed. Then there is the legality. I want to spell out this point carefully, because it is important. If the British people vote to leave, there is only one way to bring that about, namely to trigger article 50 of the treaties and begin the process of exit, and the British people would rightly expect that to start straight away. Let me be absolutely clear about how this works. It triggers a two-year time period to negotiate the arrangements for exit. At the end of this period, if no agreement is in place, then exit is automatic unless every one of the 27 other EU member states agrees to a delay.
And we should be clear that this process is not an invitation to re-join; it is a process for leaving. Sadly, I have known a number of couples who have begun divorce proceedings, but I do not know any who have begun divorce proceedings in order to renew their marriage vows.
I want to explain what happens with section 50. We should also be clear about what would happen if that deal to leave was not done within two years. Our current access to the single market would cease immediately after two years were up; our current trade agreements with 53 countries around the world would lapse. This cannot be described as anything other than risk, uncertainty and a leap in the dark that could hurt working people in our country for years to come. This is not some theoretical question; this is a real decision about people’s lives. When it comes to people’s jobs, it is simply not enough to say that it will be all right on the night and we will work it out, and I believe that in the weeks to come we need properly to face up to the economic consequences of a choice to leave.
I believe that Britain will be stronger, safer and better off by remaining in a reformed European Union: stronger because we can play a leading role in one of the world’s largest organisations from within, helping to make the big decisions on trade and security that determine our future; safer because we can work with our European partners to fight cross-border crime and terrorism; and better off because British business will have full access to the free trade single market, bringing jobs, investment and lower prices.
There will be much debate about sovereignty, and rightly so. To me, what matters most is the power to get things done for our people, for our country and for our future. Leaving the EU may briefly make us feel more sovereign, but would it actually give us more power, more influence and a greater ability to get things done? If we leave the EU, will we have the power to stop our businesses being discriminated against? No. Will we have the power to insist that European countries share with us their border information so we know what terrorists and criminals are doing in Europe? No, we won’t. Will we have more influence over the decisions that affect the prosperity and security of British families? No we won’t.
We are a great country, and whatever choice we make we will still be great. But I believe the choice is between being an even greater Britain inside a reformed EU and a great leap into the unknown. The challenges facing the west today are genuinely threatening: Putin’s aggression in the east; Islamist extremism to the south. In my view, this is no time to divide the west. When faced with challenges to our way of life, our values and our freedoms, this is a time for strength in numbers.
And let me end by saying this: I am not standing for re-election; I have no other agenda than what is best for our country. I am standing here today telling you what I think. My responsibility as Prime Minister is to speak plainly about what I believe is right for our country, and that is what I will do every day for the next four months. And I commend this statement to the House.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
I thank the Prime Minister for advance notice of this statement. It obviously took him a long time to write it, because I received it only at eight minutes past 3 this afternoon.
The people of Britain now face an historic choice on 23 June on whether to remain part of the European Union or to leave. We welcome the fact that it is now in the hands of the people of this country to decide that issue. The Labour party and the trade union movement are overwhelmingly for staying in because we believe that the European Union has brought investment, jobs and protection for workers, consumers and the environment, and we are convinced that a vote to remain is in the best interests of the people.
In the 21st century, as a country and as a continent—and, indeed, as a human race—we face some challenging issues: how to tackle climate change; how to address the power of global corporations; how to ensure that they pay fair taxes; how to tackle cybercrime and terrorism; how we trade fairly and protect jobs and pay in an era of globalisation; how we address the causes of the huge refugee movements across the world; and how we adapt to a world where people of all countries move more frequently to live, work and retire. All these issues are serious, pressing and self-evidently can be solved only by international co-operation.
The European Union will be a vital part of how we, as a country, meet those challenges, so it is therefore more than disappointing that the Prime Minister’s deal has failed to address a single one of those issues. Last week, like him, I was in Brussels meeting Heads of Government and leaders of European Socialist parties, one of whom said to me—[Hon. Members: “Who are you?”] [Laughter.] No. What they said—[Interruption.] The Conservative party might care to think for a moment about what is going on. One person said to me, and I thought it was quite profound, “We are discussing the future of a continent and one English Tory has reduced it to the issue of taking away benefits”—from workers and children. The reality is that this entire negotiation has not been about the challenges facing our continent or about the issues facing the people of Britain. Indeed, it has been a theatrical sideshow about trying to appease—or failing to appease—half of the Prime Minister’s own Conservative party.
That is not to say that there have not been some worthwhile changes. The red card system to strengthen the hands of national Parliaments is something that we on the Labour Benches have long backed. Indeed, it was in the Labour manifesto for the last general election; it was not in the Conservative manifesto, but we welcome a conversion when it takes place. We also welcome the symbolic amendment on ever-closer union. Britain’s long-standing decision not to join the euro or Schengen has been settled and accepted a long time ago. However, we see the influence of Tory party funders on the Prime Minister’s special status not for Britain but for City of London interests. It is the same incentive that caused his friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to rush to Europe with an army of lawyers to oppose any regulation of the grotesque level of bankers’ bonuses. It is necessary to protect the rights of non-eurozone states, but not to undermine EU-wide efforts to regulate the financial sector, including the boardroom pocket stuffing in the City of London.
Labour stands for a different approach. That is why our Members of the European Parliament are opposing the dangerous elements of the very secretive Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, which threatened to undermine national sovereignty, push the privatisation of public services, and drive down standards for workers, consumers, the environment and public health. Human rights ought to be part of that treaty. Indeed, I believe they should be a feature of all trade treaties.
Then there is the so-called emergency brake. We support the principle of fair contribution to social security, but, the evidence does not back up the claim that in-work benefits are a significant draw for workers who come to Britain from the European Union. The changes that the Prime Minister has secured do nothing to address the real challenges of low pay in Britain and the undercutting of local wage rates and industry-wide pay agreements. They will not put a penny in the pockets of workers in Britain, stop the grotesque exploitation of many migrant workers or reduce inward migration to Britain.
Will the Prime Minister tell us what discussions he had to get European rules in place to protect the going rate and to stop agencies bringing in cheap labour to undercut workers in Britain while exploiting the migrant force? Did he speak to other EU leaders about outlawing the so-called “Swedish derogation” from the agency workers directive, which threatens to undermine one of the key achievements of the last Labour Government by allowing unscrupulous employers to use temporary agency staff to undercut other workers? Those would have been positive and worthwhile discussions to tackle low pay, reduce in-work benefit costs and protect workers. We must, on all sides, be clear that Britain has benefited from migration—from EU workers coming to work in our industry and in our public services to fill gaps. For example, I think of the thousands of doctors and nurses who work in our NHS, saving lives every day they are at work.
The European Union has delivered protection for workers in Britain. It was Labour that made sure that Britain’s EU membership gave workers rights to minimum paid leave; protection on working time; rights for agency workers; paid maternity and paternity leave; equal pay; anti-discrimination laws; and protection for the workforce when companies change ownership. It was Labour, working in partnership with sister parties and unions across Europe, that made sure the Prime Minister’s attempt to diminish workers’ rights was kept off the agenda for these EU negotiations. Labour has supported moves to reduce child benefit to non-resident children as a reasonable amendment, but we also welcome the protection for existing migrants until 2020, so that families have stability of income.
The Prime Minister’s deal includes elements we welcome and others that concern us, but it is largely irrelevant to the choice facing the British people; not one single element has a significant impact on the case we will be making to stay in. We welcome the fact that this theatrical sideshow is over, so that we can now get on with making the real case, which will be put by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), who will be leading our campaign. Labour believes the EU is a vital framework for European trade and co-operation in the 21st century. A vote to remain is in the interests of people, not only for what the EU delivers today, but as a framework through which we can achieve much more in the future. But to deliver these progressive reforms that I have referred to, we need to work with our partners in Europe, and therefore we must ensure that Britain remains a member. That is the case we are going to be making—it is for a Europe that is socially cohesive, and a Europe that shares the benefits of wealth and prosperity among all its citizens. That is the case we are making, as the Labour party, as the trade union movement in this country, and we look forward to that public debate.
The Prime Minister
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his contribution. He and I disagree on many, many things—economic policy, social policy, welfare policy and even the approach we should take within Europe, as he has just demonstrated in his response—but we do agree about one thing: Britain should be in there, fighting for a good deal for our country. I worry a little for him because he is going to be accused of all sorts of things, some of them fair, some of them unfair. I fear that if he takes this course, he will be accused of being a member of the establishment, and that would be the unfairest attack of all.
On what the right hon. Gentleman said about the deal, I will make two points about why he should welcome it. The first is that, as far as I can see, it implements almost every pledge on Europe in the Labour manifesto—I am looking at the former Labour leader when I say that. Labour pledged to complete the single market. It pledged “tougher budget discipline”. It said
“we will ensure EU rules protect the interests of non-Euro members.”
That is absolutely right. The manifesto went on to say:
“People coming to Britain from the EU to look for work are expected to contribute to our economy, and to our society. So we will secure reforms to immigration and social security rules”.
I therefore hope Labour will welcome the things in this agreement. [Interruption.] I am just reminding my new friends what they said at the election. They said this:
“We will work to strengthen the influence national parliaments over European legislation, by arguing for a ‘red-card mechanism’ for member states”.
Excellent, that is another thing that has been achieved.
The right hon. Gentleman was unfair when he said that this deal was really all about Britain, and not about anyone else. The Slovakian Prime Minister said, good,
“the myth about ever-closer union has fallen.”
The Hungarian Prime Minister said:
“The UK managed to put an end to the practice of ‘creeping power withdrawal’ from national member states.”
Romano Prodi, the former President of the Commission, said this:
“The real consequence of the summit is extraordinarily important: Brussels has officially enshrined a multi-speed Europe.”
That is beneficial to Europe as well as to Britain.
Where I disagree profoundly with the right hon. Gentleman is that I think these trade deals are good for Britain and that the sooner we do the deal with America the better. He is wrong about financial services. There are more people working in financial services in our country outside the City of London than there are inside it. Crucially, what the single market means is that, with one establishment in Britain, we can trade throughout the European Union. If we lose that, we will see jobs going from Britain to other countries.
Let me end on a note of consensus. Labour Governments and Conservative Governments standing here have all had their difficulties with Europe. We have all wanted to get the budget down. We have all wanted to get powers returned. We have all found that, because of our love for this House of Commons and for British democracy, this process can sometimes be trying, but, at the end of the day, we have always known that, when it comes to our economy, prosperity and security, we are better off fighting from the inside.
Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con)
Does the Prime Minister agree—I am sure that he will—in referring to the continental press, that he has demonstrated the influence of a British Prime Minister, as he has forced some concessions that will be quite difficult for fellow Presidents and Prime Ministers to sell to their own political establishments? Does he agree that future generations will benefit from some of those concessions, particularly those on enlarging the single market, guaranteeing our access to parts of it, deregulating, and engaging in major trade deals with outside? Does he also agree that it is not the politics of fear to point out that those who advocate a no vote do not seem to know what a no vote means? They continually imply that all the benefits that flow from Europe in terms of jobs, investment and security will somehow continue to come here when they have swept away the obligations that previous British Government have always accepted.
The Prime Minister
I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend for what he has said. It has been interesting to see what some of the foreign newspapers have made of this. Let me give one example. A Spanish paper said:
“British exceptionality reached new heights yesterday. No other country accumulates so many exceptions in Europe.”
I am proud of the fact that we have a different status in Europe and that that status has become more special with the changes that we have made.
The point that my right hon. and learned Friend makes is absolutely right. I recognise that there are disadvantages to being in the European Union. I make no bones about that, but I can look the British people in the eye and say, “This is what it will be like if we stay in. It will be better because of the deal that we have done.” The people who are advising us to leave must spell out the consequences of leaving. The absolute lodestar is this: no country has been able to get full access to the single market without accepting either paying into the EU or accepting free movement. If people do not want to accept those two things, they have to start accepting that they will not get as good a trade and business position as we have today. People who want to leave must start making up their minds: do they want a Norway deal, a Switzerland deal or a Canada deal? Frankly, I do not mind which deal they go for, but they must start telling people because they deserve an answer.
Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)
May I begin by thanking the Prime Minister for advance sight of his statement? The referendum choice before the electorate is a huge one and it will define our relationship with the rest of Europe and indeed among the nations of the United Kingdom. Scotland is a European nation and the Scottish National party is a pro-European party. We will campaign positively to remain within the EU. Hopefully, the Prime Minister can confirm today that he will reject the tactics of project fear and that he will make a positive case for remaining part of a reforming European Union.
It is hugely important to be part of the largest market in the world and be able to influence its rules and laws. It really matters that we can co-operate with our shared challenges, from the environment to crime and security to workers’ and citizens’ rights. We should also never forget the lessons of European history and not turn our backs on our European neighbours who need help at this time to deal with huge challenges, including that of migration.
Public opinion in Scotland, by a majority, supports membership of the European Union. Every single Scottish MP supports our remaining in the EU, as does almost every Member of the Scottish Parliament and all Scottish MEPs bar one. Does the Prime Minister have any idea what the consequences would be if Scotland were taken out of the EU against the wish of the Scottish electorate? I want Scotland and the rest of the UK to remain in the European Union. However, if we are forced out of the EU, I am certain that the public in Scotland will demand a referendum on Scottish independence, and we will protect our place in Europe.
The Prime Minister
First, I can confirm that I will make, as I have done today, a positive case based on Britain being stronger, Britain being safer, and Britain being better off, but this is a choice. It is important that we set out the choice and the alternative to the British people, because this is potentially the most important decision that people will make on a political issue in their lifetime. I do not want anyone to take a step into the dark without thinking the consequences through properly.
I absolutely agree with the right hon. Gentleman about one thing. Although Brussels and the institutions can be frustrating, we should never forget what brought this institution into being in the first place. Even at the most frustrating times in talks, I look round the table and think of how these countries fought one another and killed one another’s people for so long, so the dialogue and action that we take together is positive. As for the vote in Scotland, this is one UK vote.
Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)
My right hon. Friend has spoken about national Parliaments, democracy and our sovereignty. In his Bloomberg speech, he made it clear that he regarded our national Parliament as the root of our democracy. Yesterday, he referred to the “illusion of sovereignty”. Will he explain and repudiate that statement, specifically in relation to the question now before us, our Parliament, our democracy and the making of our laws, which at this moment in time under the European Communities Act 1972, are made by a majority vote of other countries, are introduced by an unelected Commission, and are enforced by the European Court of Justice? Does he not accept that the only way of getting out of that and returning our democracy is to leave the European Union?
The Prime Minister
First, I have huge respect for my hon. Friend, who has campaigned on this issue for many years, and the one thing he will welcome is the fact that we are now allowing the British people a choice on whether to stay in or leave the European Union. Let me confirm that, yes, this Parliament is sovereign. We have chosen to join the European Union, and we can choose to leave it. Let me explain exactly what I meant when I said that there would in many cases be the “illusion of sovereignty” by taking one issue. We now have safeguards so that British banks and businesses cannot be discriminated against if we stay in the European Union because we are not in the euro. Were we to leave, we would not have that protection. They could discriminate against us. Frankly, I think they would discriminate against us, so we might feel more sovereign, but it would be an illusion of sovereignty because we would not have the power to protect the businesses that create jobs and livelihoods in our country.
Mr Nick Clegg (Sheffield, Hallam) (LD)
Despite assurances, it is worth remembering that this referendum is about the future of our country, not the future of a divided Conservative party. Does the Prime Minister agree that it is not just about Britain’s place in the European Union but about Britain’s place in the world? President Obama has made it crystal clear that if Britain left the European Union that would weaken, not strengthen, the special relationship. The Indians and Chinese are mystified that we are even risking exit from the European Union. Does the Prime Minister agree that if in future Britain wants to stand tall in New Delhi, Beijing, Washington and other global capitals, it must continue to stand tall in our own European neighbourhood?
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman is right that we should make this decision ourselves as a sovereign nation and a sovereign people, but it is worth listening to our friends and listening to what they think is best for our country. Of all the leaders and politicians I have met around the world, I cannot think of any of our friends—not Australia, not New Zealand, not Canada, not America—who want us to leave the EU. The only person I can think of who might want us to leave the EU is Vladimir Putin. As for what the right hon. Gentleman, my former colleague, said about the need for this referendum, I make the slightly cheeky point that we are implementing the 2010 Lib Dem manifesto by holding it.
Boris Johnson (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con)
May I ask my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to explain to the House and the country in exactly what way this deal returns sovereignty over any field of lawmaking to these Houses of Parliament?
The Prime Minister
This deal brings back some welfare powers, it brings back some immigration powers, it brings back some bail-out powers, but more than that, because it carves us forever out of ever closer union, it means that the ratchet of the European Court taking power away from this country cannot happen in future. For those who worry—and people do worry—that somehow if we vote to remain in, the consequence could be more action in Brussels to try and change the arrangements we have, we have a lock in this House of Commons: no power can be passed from Britain to Brussels without a referendum of the British people. So we have a better deal, we have a special status, and we have a chance to make sure that we build on what we have, protect our people and enhance our prosperity, and that is the choice we should make.
Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)
Let me thank the Prime Minister for quoting and implementing parts of the 2015 Labour manifesto.
I want to go to the big picture question, which is about how we influence things in our national interest. Let me draw the Prime Minister out on the powerful end to his statement. Of course, by being a member of the European Union, we do not always get out own way, but given what he said to the hon. Member for Stone (Sir William Cash), on all the major issues, whether it is trade, climate change or terrorism and security—he can tell us, because he has been the Prime Minister—does he believe we have more influence in the European Union or outside? Surely the answer is that we have more influence inside the European Union, not outside. That is why I passionately believe we must remain in the European Union.
The Prime Minister
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for what he says. I cannot promise to implement many other parts of the Labour manifesto, but I am glad to have been of assistance on this occasion. I absolutely agree with him. The big picture is this: when it comes to getting things done in the world that can help keep people safe in our country, or getting a bigger, better deal on climate change, do we get more because we are in the EU? Yes. Making sure we have sanctions against Iran that really work and get Iran to abandon its nuclear programme—do we do that through the EU and other bodies? Yes, absolutely. On making sure we stand up to Russian aggression in Ukraine, we have been the linchpin between the European Union and the United States of America in making those sanctions count. If we had been outside the European Union during that period, we would have been waiting at the end of the phone to find out what the decisions were going to be. Instead, we were making them, we were driving them, between Europe and America. That is how we get things done for our people.
Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)
According to the Guido Fawkes website today, there is a letter appearing in The Times tomorrow which has been written by a Chris Hopkins on behalf of organisations across the UK supposedly wishing us to remain. Chris Hopkins is apparently a civil servant. Can the Prime Minister tell us who Chris Hopkins is, which Department he works for, and what authority he has as a civil servant to campaign for the remain lobby?
The Prime Minister
I can answer very simply. He is a civil servant working in No. 10 and his authority comes from me. He is doing an excellent job. This is not a free-for-all. The Government have a clear view, which is that we should remain in a reformed European Union, and the civil service is able to support the Government in that role. Members of Parliament, Ministers and Cabinet Ministers are able to make their own decision, but the Government are not holding back or hanging back from this. We have a full-throated view that we should put forward in front of the British people so that they can make their choice.
Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
I am tempted to ask whether the Prime Minister thinks blonds have more fun, but I will actually ask whether he remembers the analysis his Government did in 2014 of the European arrest warrant. It concluded that the European arrest warrant acts as a deterrent to offenders coming to this country. Will he point that out to his Work and Pensions Secretary, and will he ask the Home Secretary to brief the Work and Pensions Secretary on all the other reasons why Britain is safer and more secure in the European Union?
The Prime Minister
The European arrest warrant is a good case in point. All of us who have this concern about sovereignty and the rest of it had our concerns about the arrest warrant, but look at what has happened in practice. When, in 2005, terrorists tried to bomb our city for a second time, one of them escaped and was arrested and returned to Britain within weeks under a European arrest warrant. Before that, it could have taken years. So I think we can all see that the practical application of these changes definitely keeps us more safe.
When it comes to this question of fighting terrorism and cross-border crime, obviously people are going to have different opinions. I would urge people, though, to listen to the head of the Association of Chief Police Officers, to listen to the former director of MI5, to listen to the head of Europol. These are people who know what they speak of, and they are very, very clear: these measures help us to stay safe.
Mrs Anne-Marie Trevelyan (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (Con)
Having spent the best part of the recess in the Arctic circle with the Royal Marines, I am extremely conscious of the need to ensure that every one of our serving military personnel can cast their vote—to leave or to remain—in the forthcoming EU referendum, which the Prime Minister has worked so hard to get on to the statute books for us. Will he please confirm that every serving member of our armed forces, wherever they are in the world, will be entitled to vote? Will he guarantee that they will receive their ballot papers in good time, and will he confirm how we will ensure that everyone is counted?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend clearly had a more entertaining recess than I did—I am rather jealous. There were moments when I wished I was in the Arctic circle, I can tell you. I believe that the arrangements are absolutely the same as for a general election. We have now four months until the referendum, so there is plenty of time to put in place the arrangements that she seeks.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
I pay credit to the Prime Minister for delivering a referendum to the British people. I well remember the time he came to this House and argued against a referendum, but I am glad he came round to supporting those of us who believed that holding one was the right thing to do. He will know that we on the Democratic Unionist party Benches are extremely disappointed that we do not have, as a result of his deal, control over our sovereignty, over our borders or over our finances.
The Prime Minister said in his statement that it is “simply not enough” for those on the leave side “to say that it will be all right on the night and we will work it out”—he wants definite facts. When, therefore, will migrants coming to the United Kingdom begin to be eligible for some benefits? He should not tell us he is going to work it out; he should tell us when they will first become eligible for any kind of benefit.
The Prime Minister
What we have is a phased approach, so that, over four years, they get access to benefits. There is no access to benefits to start with, and full access only after four years. That is a huge advance. Compare that with the lack of certainty that we are being offered from people who want to leave, who cannot tell us whether they favour a model like Norway or Switzerland, or whether they want a trade deal like Canada, or, as some do, just want to reclaim a purely World Trade Organisation position. We need to know the answer to that, because, frankly, it is only when we know that that people can make a proper judgment about the security of staying in and the dangers of getting out.
Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con)
Last week’s decision requires treaty change to be both irreversible and legally binding. When will the ratification procedure begin?
The Prime Minister
I am afraid that my right hon. Friend is not right. It is already legally binding and irreversible, because this is a decision of 28 Governments to reach a legally binding decision that is then deposited as a legal document at the UN, so this could be reversed only if all 28 members, including the UK, were to come to a different decision. But the document sets out very clearly that two specific areas—the changes that we need to the treaty on ever closer union, and safeguards for businesses and countries outside the eurozone—will be put into the treaty as well.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
The Mayor of London, who has been touted as the leader of the leave campaign, said yesterday that Britain would easily be able to
“negotiate a large number of trade deals at great speed”
because we
“used to run the biggest empire”
the world has ever seen. Will the Prime Minister invite the Mayor to wake up to the 21st century, in which the European economy is six times larger than the British economy and in which it took seven years for Canada to get a trade deal? Does he agree that with so much uncertainty in the world economy, it would be deeply disruptive to increase the risks for British exporters, British manufacturers and British jobs?
The Prime Minister
Where I share the frustration of many of those who are questioning whether we should stay in is that Britain does need trade deals to be signed rapidly, and we do find it frustrating that Europe is not moving faster, because the Korean free trade agreement has been excellent, and we want to push ahead with Japan, with Canada, with America, and with China—and because of this document, all those things are more likely. Where I think the right hon. Lady has a good point is that you cannot sign trade deals with other countries until you have determined the nature of your relationship with the EU from the outside. That would take at least two years, and then you have to think, how long does it take to sign trade deals? The Canada deal is now, I think, in its seventh year and is still not put in place, so I worry that this is a recipe for uncertainty and risk. Businesses literally would not know what the arrangements were for year after year, and British business, British jobs and our country would suffer as a result.
Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)
My 1998 pamphlet calling for us to address the question of our role in the world via a referendum on our EU membership may have escaped the Prime Minister’s attention, but he will understand why I am absolutely delighted that he has now provided us with an opportunity to resolve this question for a generation. Does he agree that if the country votes to remain, we must positively commit to the institutions of the European Union to best ensure its success and to move on from the grudging tone that has so dominated our discourse, and that equally the establishment he leads must positively engage with a potential decision to leave and undertake reasonable contingency planning now?
The Prime Minister
Let me make a couple of points to my hon. Friend. First, one of the things this renegotiation does is to address some of the principal grudges that I think this country has rightly had: too much of a single currency club, too much political union, too much in terms of migration and lack of respect for welfare systems, not enough competitiveness and removing bureaucracy. Having dealt with some of these grudges, yes, it may be possible to make sure that we get more things done that suit us. I would also agree with something that the Mayor of London said, which is that we need to make sure that we have high-quality British officials in every part of the organisation so that we can help to drive its agenda. My hon. Friend is right that this should be done to settle the issue for a generation. He is also right that we will be publishing the alternatives to membership so that people can see what they are and that there are plans that could be made.
Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)
The Prime Minister said that great reform has been granted in the renegotiation. Why, then, did the French President say that the European Union has not granted the United Kingdom any special dispensations from its rules in the deal that has been struck, and go on to say that the Prime Minister had accepted that the City of London would not have special status compared with Europe’s other stock exchanges? Why is there such a difference between what the French President is saying and what the Prime Minister is saying?
The Prime Minister
The French Foreign Minister, Jean-Marc Ayrault, said:
“The agreement with the British is a recognition that there is a differentiated Europe”.
I have already quoted the Slovakian and Hungarian Prime Ministers and the former Italian Commissioner, and François Hollande said:
“We have recognised Britain’s position—not in Schengen, not in the Euro Zone, she does not subscribe to the Charter of Fundamental Rights”.
They are recognising that Britain has a special status in Europe.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
Although the referendum decision—in or out—is a matter for the British people, as the leader of an Atlanticist party, does the Prime Minister recognise and acknowledge the concerns of the White House, the Pentagon, the State Department and international players that have already been mentioned that Britain and Europe need to stand together in an unsafe world?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an important point. I do not believe that the American view is based simply on, “Well, it’s easier to make one phone call rather than many.” I think it is based on the fact that they believe that Britain will be a stronger partner and more able to get things done and to bend the will of other countries in our and America’s direction when it comes to solving great crises. If we ask ourselves how we have managed to massively reduce pirate attacks off Somalia, and how we are going to try to fix the problem of Libya’s border, then we see that, yes, we can act unilaterally, and yes, there are valuable partnerships in NATO, but EU partnerships are worth a lot too.
Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)
Given that the pound has slid to its lowest level for seven years on the news that the hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson) has joined the leave campaign, are we not just getting a glimpse of the major economic upheaval that could follow if we leave the European Union? Is that not a timely reminder that the long-term best interests of our country should come ahead of party politicking and personal ambition?
The Prime Minister
It is important that we look in detail at the full economic impacts of either staying in or choosing to leave the EU. We will set out that approach in the weeks and months to come so that people can see what the dangers and risks are and what the case is.
John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
Do not the common agricultural, fishing and energy policies do damage to domestic producers and add to the colossal deficit we always run with the rest of the EU while running a trade surplus with the rest of the world? What can we do about those unfairnesses if we stay in the European Union?
The Prime Minister
We have made a lot of progress in recent years. The wine lakes and butter mountains are a thing of the past. We have made big reforms to the common fisheries policy. I know that my right hon. Friend studies these things very closely, but although we have a deficit with the EU on goods, we have a substantial surplus when it comes to services. We have to think about the future and how we safeguard the services industries as well as making sure that our position in the single market is open.
Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab)
Opening up EU markets in areas such as energy and digital services could create hundreds of thousands of jobs in future. Does the Prime Minister agree that remaining part of the EU would give the UK a strong voice in making sure that the completion of that single market happens, and would get the best deal for British business and jobs?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Lady makes an important point, which is that Britain has a strong voice in the EU to get these single markets completed. The declaration on competitiveness from the EU Commission is worth reading. She also points out that, if we were not there, not only would the EU continue to exist and have a very big impact on our lives, but it would probably head in a very different and more protectionist direction, and that would affect us, in many ways quite badly.
Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con)
My right hon. Friend will no doubt have been deluged with advice on EU law during his negotiation, so on the subject of ever closer union, can he give us a concrete example of a single European Court of Justice case that would have had a different outcome if the measures he agreed last week had been in place at the time?
The Prime Minister
Ever closer union has been mentioned in a series of judgments by the European Court of Justice, and there are two things in what we have agreed that I think will have an impact. Obviously, the most eye-catching of those is in paragraph 1 on page 10, which states that the substance of the agreements
“will be incorporated into the Treaties at the time of their next revision”
and will
“make it clear that the references to ever closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom.”
That is obviously a carve-out for us, but just as significant—and this is something that many other countries did not want—is the content of the next paragraph, which states:
“The references in the Treaties and their preambles…of creating an ever closer union…do not offer a legal basis for extending the scope of any provision of the Treaties or of EU secondary legislation.”
That redefinition of ever closer union is a fundamental change to the way in which the organisation has worked. One way to think of it is that there have been two threats to our sovereignty. The first came from treaty change passing powers from Britain to Brussels, but that cannot happen now because of our lock. The second is the use of terms such as “ever closer union” to make sure that the EU grows its powers, but that cannot be done now that we have that change. One of the reasons why the deal took 40 hours of all-night negotiations is that not everybody likes it. The deal is not meaningless words; it is words that mean something, that matter and that make a difference. That is why I was so determined to secure it.
Alex Salmond (Gordon) (SNP)
The Prime Minister was elected on 37% of the vote. Even if half those people were to vote in, the referendum can be won only on the basis of people who voted Labour, Scottish National party, Liberal, Plaid Cymru and Green. Is it not a reasonable supposition to make that those people will be more interested in a positive articulation of the case for Europe than in the factional arguments of the Conservative party, entertaining though they are? When will the Prime Minister put forward that positive case for Europe?
The Prime Minister
I do not want to upset the right hon. Gentleman, because I am hoping that he will be supportive. In the speech that I made today, I set out a positive case. Yes, it is the case of someone who is Eurosceptical in the genuine sense: I am sceptical about all organisations and about all engagements. We should always question whether organisations work for us, and we should be doubtful about such things. That is what being sceptical means.
I come at this as someone who has their doubts about Brussels and doubts about the EU, but I have an absolutely clear eye about what is best for Britain. If others want to argue from a more positive stance about the nature of the EU, fine—go for it. It is up to everyone to make their own case, but I am going to make my case in a clear-eyed determination of what is in Britain’s interest, and I think I did that today.
Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)
The Prime Minister has centred much of the renegotiation on immigration, so can he tell the House, in his estimation, by how much the welfare changes will reduce immigration from the EU in the coming year?
The Prime Minister
Anyone who knows that, at the moment, someone can come from the EU and get up to £10,000 of in-work welfare benefits in the first year knows that that is a big incentive to come to Britain. Many people said that we would never be able to get changes to in-work benefits, but we have got those changes. If we pass this legislation we will see, in 2017, a seven-year period up to 2024 in which we will be restricting these welfare claims. That, plus all the changes that the Home Secretary helped to secure—in many cases reversing ECJ judgments—will actually restore to our country powers over welfare and powers over immigration that can make a real difference.
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)
Plaid Cymru supports our membership of the EU. We also support further reform, and we will campaign accordingly. Were we to leave, what would happen to measures such as convergence funding, which has provided large amounts of money for the poorer areas of west Wales and the valleys?
The Prime Minister
The short answer is that if we were to leave the EU, we would not be able to get those funds, which have made a big difference in parts of Wales, in parts of England—for instance, in Cornwall—and in other parts of our country. I am someone who wants to keep the EU budget down, and we achieved the historic decision to cut it, but I think we should be frank that some of the work that the EU has done in poorer countries in other parts of the EU has helped those economies to grow. They are all customers of ours, so whether it is Bulgaria, Romania, Greece or wherever, their economic development is in our interests.
Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)
In January, I introduced a Bill to try to protect our children from flammable costumes—to protect children from going up in flames. I pulled the Bill this month after discussions with officials from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, who told me that the matter comes under harmonised legislation. Thousands of directives are spewed out from Brussels every year with which the Government have to comply. We cannot even protect our own children on something so fundamental, because we do not have control without the permission of Brussels.
The Prime Minister
I will look carefully at the case my hon. Friend has mentioned, because I know that such things can be frustrating. In the area of foam-filled furniture and foam-filled mattresses, we have taken steps over and above what other EU countries have done, and that has kept our own people safer. The other thing I would say is that a lot of different figures are bandied about on the matter, but if she looks in the House of Commons Library, she will see that far from the very high figures quoted by some, more like 13%, 14% or 15% of laws come to us from that direction.
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
May I commend the Prime Minister for his statement and congratulate him on successfully persuading his European counterparts to sign up to the renegotiation. He has of course been less successful in persuading half the Conservative party to support him. Will he accept that although his renegotiation may have been successful, it is not central to how most people will make up their minds? When we belong to a European single market that is worth £80 billion a year to this country, the real question is are we better off in or out? When we are facing huge insecurities and dangers in this world, are we better off alongside our friends and neighbours, or outside on our own? When we face huge international challenges, such as climate change and the refugee crisis, are we better off working with others, or isolated on our own? Will he join me in our shared ambition for a Britain in Europe, not the blond ambition behind him?
The Prime Minister
The renegotiation was aimed at dealing with some of the legitimate grievances that we have had in the UK for many years about the way in which the EU works. We felt it was too much of a single currency club and too much of a political union, and was not enough about competitiveness and had not enough protections in terms of welfare and immigration. I believe the renegotiation and agreement go a long way to dealing with each of those problems.
Now is the time, as the hon. Gentleman says, for the even bigger argument about the future of our country and about what sort of country we want to live in for ourselves, and our children and grandchildren. It is a huge issue, and on the points he makes about Britain being strong in the world and able to get things done, I would argue that our membership of NATO matters and our membership of the UN matters, but our membership of the EU also gives us force and power to get things done in the world.
Sir Eric Pickles (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)
On these Benches we are rightly proud of our record on the drop in unemployment, the record growth—best in the G7—and the reduction in our deficit. During my right hon. Friend’s many meetings, did he find anybody, even a single person, who suggested we might get better terms, on our exit, to achieve even better outside the European community?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend makes an important point. There is good will towards Britain because of the contribution we make to the EU. There is understanding of the problems and difficulties that we have had. Therefore, with a huge amount of diplomacy —travel and meetings and everything else—it has been possible to get, I think, a good agreement for Britain. As I said in my statement, if we were somehow to kick over the table and ask for a second one, I do not think that would be remotely feasible.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
May I particularly welcome the equalisation of the spouse visa rules, which discriminated unfairly against British citizens? May I also ask the Prime Minister to recognise the work of the Minister for Europe? I managed only two years in the job; he has done six, and he has still retained his sanity—almost.
On the other big issue, the migration crisis, the British head of Europol said today that 5,000 jihadists are now within the European Union area. Many of them have come in through the external border of the EU. What additional help is being given to Greece and Italy, in particular, to try to deal with protecting the external border, with the support of Frontex?
The Prime Minister
First, let me thank the right hon. Gentleman for his remarks about the Europe Minister, who was with me in Brussels for this marathon negotiation —I thought his eyes were shutting for a minute there. He has been doing the job for six years, and has done it extremely well.
The point about spousal visas is important. For many years, we argued that this needed to be sorted out, and for many years the EU said back, “Well, if you want to equalise the rules, change your own rules.” Now, we have in effect managed to change its rules, so it is a real breakthrough.
In terms of the help that we are giving to Italy and Greece, the discussions in Brussels were very intense because the numbers really have to be reduced, and reduced radically. That is why I strongly support, and Britain will contribute to, the maritime operation—it will have strong NATO support, as well as EU support—to try to bring together Greece and Turkey, with a common information picture or common intelligence about what is happening, so we can stop so many of these criminal gangs operating in the area. Without that, there will not be the right chance of getting this situation under control.
Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con)
For decades, British Ministers who have had involvement with Europe—I include myself in this—have been tempted to exaggerate the influence we bring to bear and conceal our inability to achieve British interests. Is that why it took a freedom of information request to establish that over the last two decades, Britain has voted against 72 measures in the European Council and been defeated 72 times, and that the pace of defeat is accelerating? If we make the mistake of taking the risk of remaining in the EU, how many defeats does the Prime Minister expect over the next two decades?
The Prime Minister
I do not for one minute underestimate the frustrations and challenges of being a member of this organisation. The research that I have seen—perhaps I will write to my right hon. Friend with a copy of it—states that deep analysis of whether a country achieves its position shows that Britain does so in 90% of cases, which even, I think, outranks the Germans. I have seen for myself that when we work hard and form alliances, we can get things done.
The other point I make to my right hon. Friend is that if we are outside the single market, the same countries will write the rules, but without us. We will have to comply with them when we sell into Europe, but will have absolutely no say over what they are. That, to me, is the illusion of sovereignty, rather than real sovereignty.
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
I accept the symbolism of removing the phrase “ever closer union”, but if we are to believe that it will have legal consequences, the Prime Minister owes it to the House to give at least one or two examples of where that was the sole legal basis for a decision.
The Prime Minister
I am happy to write to the right hon. Lady with the details because those words have been used in a whole series of cases. That is why the point was so hard-fought.
Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
May I point out to my right hon. Friend that article 50 did not exist in the treaties until the Lisbon treaty, which he used to oppose and now agrees with? There are many ways of leaving the European Union that might not involve article 50. He does not want to bind himself into the article 50 framework. Will he give this some thought, rather than committing himself to a policy that he obviously does not support?
The Prime Minister
Whether we like it or not—frankly, I do not particularly like it—the treaty on European Union sets out the way in which a country leaves. It is called article 50 and I think people should read it. If you want to leave, leave. If you want to stay, stay. What I find slightly odd is the idea of voting to leave to try and half stay. I do not think the British public would understand it, I do not think our European partners would understand it and I am at a loss to understand it as well. I thought that we wanted to have a referendum and to make a choice.
Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
Does the Prime Minister think President Putin would rather see a strong Britain staying in a strong Europe or Britain breaking away from the European Union and, potentially, Europe breaking apart?
The Prime Minister
It is certainly true that Vladimir Putin likes to see disunity in the west, whether it is over sanctions, Syria or Russian conduct in other issues. There is no doubt in my mind, having sat at the European Council table, that the alliance between the Baltic states and Poland—which see at first hand the problems being created by Putin—countries such as Britain, which should always stand up to aggression, and the French and Germans has made Europe’s position stronger. If we were not there, I do not think we could guarantee that that would be the case. I do not believe that that is an overstatement of the position.
Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)
In October, Lord Rose, the chairman of the pro-EU BSE campaign, said:
“Nothing is going to happen if we come out of Europe in the first five years, probably. There will be absolutely no change.”
I hope that my right hon. Friend finds it reassuring to hear that from the head of the campaign to stay in. Does he agree that it is inevitable that after the public vote to leave, there will be a period of informal discussions before the formal process is triggered?
The Prime Minister
I have great respect for my hon. Friend who is leading the campaign with great vim, vigour and passion, but surely if you want Britain to leave the EU you want things to change rather than not to change. The truth is that article 50 is the only way to leave. It says that you spend two years negotiating your status outside the EU and that if that cannot be agreed at the end of those two years then, unless all 27 other member states agree to extend the process, you leave. On leaving, if you have not got a deal, you do not know what your relationship is with the single market and you do not know what your relationship is with the 53 countries covered by the trading deals. You do not really know very much. My argument is: do not take that risk. Stay in a reformed European Union. What I think the leave campaign will have to do at some stage is explain what it is they want once we have left.
Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP)
I thank the Prime Minister for his detailed statement. Does he accept that, with Ireland and Britain so closely connected economically and living, as it were, in each other’s shadow, a UK exit from the European Union would have particular implications for Ireland, north and south? Indications suggest there may be some initial financial savings for the UK, but that huge losses are likely to follow. We have seen today the impact on sterling. That financial impact would be negative and slow—we would not see the full impact today or tomorrow. Recent polls suggest that 75% of people in Northern Ireland want to stay in the EU. Does the Prime Minister agree that a UK exit from the EU would have a particularly detrimental impact on Northern Ireland’s economy, and on its hard-won peace process and stability?
The Prime Minister
First, let me pay tribute and thanks to the Taoiseach, the leader of the Republic, who was probably one of the strongest voices in support of Britain’s renegotiation and in making sure we achieved a good settlement. In terms of Northern Ireland, everyone in Northern Ireland will have a vote and every vote counts the same. I urge people to exercise their democratic right. I look forward to going to Northern Ireland, as part of the campaign, to talk directly to people about why I believe we should stay.
Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)
Acknowledging that some people believe that our European neighbours want to do us down at every turn, is it credible to suppose that if we were to leave, those self-same people could believe that our former partners would fall over themselves to give us free access to the single market, which is the vital foundation for our business and industry to trade across the world?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend makes an important point. I feel that very deeply. Having tried to build up the good will for a special status for Britain within the EU, which is what we have achieved, I do not believe that that good will would in any way be there were we to decide to leave. My right hon. Friend makes a very good point. That is why the safe option, the certain option, the option without risk is to stay in the reformed EU, rather than to take this leap in the dark.
Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)
As the Prime Minister outlines the potentially grave consequences for the UK of leaving in terms of our economy and our security, we can perhaps all reflect on the wisdom of the leadership decisions that will lead to us perhaps facing those consequences in a few months’ time.
The side that wants to leave has put sovereignty and control at the heart of its argument. Does the Prime Minister agree that if we swap from a position where we are a decision-maker at the top table, we will be moving from a position of being a rule-maker to being a rule-taker, and that that is not sovereignty, it is not control and it is not the best future for the United Kingdom?
The Prime Minister
I do not agree with what the right hon. Gentleman said in the first part of his question. I think it is time for a referendum. Too many treaties have passed through this House with no referendum, whether Maastricht under the Conservatives or Lisbon under Labour. I think that sapped people’s faith in our democracy and in our accountability. I particularly remember the moment when Tony Blair stood here and said, “Let battle be joined” and all the rest of it. We really thought a referendum was coming and then it was taken away. It is right to have this referendum, and we should not be frightened of asking the people and trusting the people.
I absolutely agree with the right hon. Gentleman that if we want to ask the question of how we can have greater control and greater influence, the answer is to be in there helping to make the rules, rather than outside simply taking the rules.
Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con)
I congratulate the Prime Minister on securing for Britain the special status he talked about earlier. Does he agree that the problem with the debate so far is that those who want to leave Europe are completely unable to agree on an alternative arrangement for Britain in the EU that would deliver the same sort of economic and security benefits that his renegotiation secures?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend makes an important point. Today’s discussions have revealed a lack of agreement not only about what Britain’s future looks like outside the EU, but about whether we really should leave, as some people want to vote leave in the hope of a different deal. Then there is not really agreement about how we should leave, whether it be via article 50 or through some other process that can be followed. I am absolutely clear that the only way of leaving is through article 50. There is no second renegotiation; there is no second referendum. The choice is in or out. I think we now need to move on to debate what those things really mean.
Ms Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh (Ochil and South Perthshire) (SNP)
Can the Prime Minister tell us, beyond the areas specifically addressed in the deal agreed last week, in which way his Government’s plans have been constrained by European legislation or regulation?
The Prime Minister
There is no doubt that we do face constraints, because the single market works through a common set of rules that have to be agreed. As has been said, we do not always get our way, although I would argue that we get our way far more often than we do not. There are occasions when we lose a vote and we are constrained by EU regulation or legislation. The question I think we now need to put in a very hard-headed “Realpolitik” sense is this: “If you are outside, does this give you the full control and sovereignty that you seek?” It does not, because we still have to trade with Europe and accept the rules. The only thing achieved is to have removed ourselves from the conversation and taken away our vote.
Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con)
The Prime Minister has said that this will settle the issue for a generation. I am blessed with five grandchildren and I believe that it is in their best interests that I vote to remain within the European Union. There is another generation that is a matter of some concern. Thousands of people who have paid UK taxes and national insurance over the years are now living in other parts of Europe. My right hon. Friend knows that I have sought to represent the interests of those people. They are very frightened indeed. Can he tell them what will happen to them if we leave the European Union?
The Prime Minister
I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for deciding to support the case for remaining in the EU. He raises an important point. We often look at free movement in terms of people’s decision to come here, but we also need to think about the many British people who have chosen to work, live or retire in other parts of the EU. The short answer to my hon. Friend’s question is that I can tell those people what it will be like if we stay, but I cannot be absolutely certain about what would happen if we leave. It would depend on a complex and difficult negotiation, and I think there would be a lot of uncertainty. I would urge all those people, who have the right to vote, to make sure that they exercise it. We should perhaps think particularly about people in Gibraltar who are all able to vote in this referendum.
Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)
I welcome the Prime Minister’s commitment in his statement today to speak plainly over the next four months about what he believes is right for our country. As he develops that argument, will he bear it in mind that 9 million people voted Labour at the last general election and that their sympathies and values do not naturally lie with his party so he needs to develop a conversation with them as well?
The Prime Minister
I certainly take on board the right hon. Gentleman’s point, but this is not a party political issue. This is an issue for all people and all voters to get involved in. They might vote Conservative at a general election but decide to vote either in or out in the referendum—and the same with Labour, Liberal Democrat, Green or whatever. This should be a giant democratic exercise in accountability. We are asking questions about sovereignty, but this is a huge sovereign decision by the British people. I know I can sometimes upset Labour voters, but I would say to them, “Put aside what you think about this Government or that rule or that law, and think about the future of your country. Think about the big picture and then make the choice.”
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
The Prime Minister said that crime should be at the forefront of our thoughts when we are voting in the referendum. Can he therefore tell us how many crimes were committed in the UK by other EU nationals in the year before free movement of people came into effect, and how many were committed by other EU nationals last year? How many other EU nationals were in the UK prison system before free movement of people came into operation and how many are there now? I am sure that my right hon. Friend must have that information, given that crime is such a big thing for him. If he has not got it, perhaps he will write to me with that information.
The Prime Minister
I do not have all those figures to hand, but what I can say to my hon. Friend is that because of the very hard work done by the Home Secretary, we will be able to bar more criminals from coming to Britain, and we will have longer re-entry bans. We are solving problems that the European Court of Justice has put in our way. As for prisoners, the prisoner transfer agreement that we negotiated will mean that we can get foreign prisoners out of our prisons and into their jails. Outside the EU, that would be far more difficult—perhaps impossible—to achieve.
Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)
I think that I am the only Member who was elected to the European Parliament in 1979, at the same time as the father of the Mayor of London—who, I must say, talked a lot more sense than his son. We were then on opposite sides. I was against membership of the EU, while the Mayor’s father was in favour of it. However, I changed my mind. After two years in the European Parliament, I saw the benefits of working with people from other nations. [Interruption.] Cynics! We talked about acid rain, and about restructuring and its social effects on people who worked in the older industries. I gained enormously from working with people of other nationalities, and I hope that the Prime Minister will emphasise, again and again, the importance of internationalism.
The Prime Minister
I thank the right hon. Lady for her honesty in saying that she had changed her mind when she was sitting with Stanley Johnson: two blonde bombshells, if you like, in the same European Parliament. I remember campaigning with Stanley Johnson, and if the good people of Newton Abbot had decided to vote the right way in, I think, 2005—or perhaps it was 2010— he would be sitting here, and we would have been able to hear from him as well as from the Mayor of London.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
With respect, why does the Prime Minister “bang on” so much about east European migration? After all, the Poles have a wonderful record in this country of coming here, not for benefits but to work hard and integrate. Is it not much more worrying that millions are pouring into Europe from north Africa and the middle east? Has the Prime Minister any idea of the proportion of those people who will exercise their right to come here once they have their German passports? If we remain in the EU, the channel will be about as useful in stopping them as a trifling Macedonian stream.
The Prime Minister
I promise to “bang on” for the next four months, but I hope to “bang on” considerably less about this subject after that.
My hon. Friend has made an important point. Obviously we have the advantage of being outside Schengen, so foreign nationals coming to other European countries do not have automatic access to the UK. We can stop them coming in, as indeed we can stop European citizens who we think may be a risk to our country. The factual answer to my hon. Friend’s question, however, is that, after 10 years, only about 2.2% of the refugees and others who have arrived in Germany have German citizenship, so the evidence to date is that there is not a huge risk of very early grants of citizenship to these people. Nevertheless, I agree that we need to act, and if we are involved, we are more likely to act to try and stem the flow of migrants in the first place. What is happening now in the NATO-led operation between Greece and Italy is happening partly because of a UK intervention in this debate, taken with the French, the Germans and the Italians. When we are around that table, we can get things done.
Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)
Does the Prime Minister agree that the claim that staying in the European Union would make an attack on our shores more likely is deeply irresponsible and factually wrong?
The Prime Minister
I am struggling to find the right page in my notes, on which there is a quotation. Ah, here we are.
I think that this is important, because we should be clear about the advantages and the disadvantages of the organisation. I have become convinced of this: when we are fighting terrorism and crime, we rely on the police, the security and intelligence services and the “Five Eyes” partnership, and I have seen at first hand that our partnership with America is incredibly powerful when it comes to keeping us safe, but I have also seen in recent years just how much this European co-operation matters. I am thinking of, for instance, the Schengen Information System and the European Criminal Records Information System, and the passage of information between our organisations. Hugh Orde, former president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, was very clear yesterday. He said that staying in Europe and co-operating with our European allies is essential to keeping British people safe:
“The European arrest warrant lets us deport terrorist suspects back to their country of origin, Europol helps our police co-operate with their European counterparts, and EU data-sharing measures allow our security services to access information on threats from anywhere in Europe within minutes.”
That is a very powerful statement from someone who clearly knows what they are talking about.
Of course, outside the EU we could try to negotiate bilateral agreements either with every country or with every system and every organisation, but I do think people will ask: “Why give up a system that is working to keep us safe when it could take so long to try and replicate it?” And then, even when we have replicated it, as Norway has tried to do with Europol, Europol is very clear: the Norwegians do not get the access or the personnel or the extra safety we get by being a full member.
Damian Green (Ashford) (Con)
Two hundred thousand of our UK firms trade with the EU and it accounts for just under half our total trade. Given that the EU is the only big world trading bloc in which we have a say in setting the rules, would it not be absurd to give away that say? Would it not betray those 200,000 firms and lead to fewer jobs, less growth and damage to our economy?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend makes an important point. While it would be good if the World Trade Organisation was signing more multilateral trade deals, there has not been a successful round for 22 years. So if we are interested in driving free trade and market access in the world today, we need to be part of a bloc that can sign good and effective deals. We have seen that with Korea and with Singapore, and we now need to see it with all the other countries that the EU is doing these deals with. As I have said, of course outside the EU we can sign deals, but the information I have from country after country is “Yes, we’d do a deal but only after we’ve fixed our deal with the EU,” and that is likely to be a bigger deal and a better deal. So I think the argument on this trade deal issue very much goes one way.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
Britain has an enormous trade deficit with the rest of the EU, amounting to over £60 billion a year, equivalent to over 1 million jobs exported from Britain to the continent, half of them to Germany. Is it not obvious that the EU needs us much more than we need it and the last thing the EU is going to do is start a trade war with Britain?
The Prime Minister
The problem with the hon. Gentleman’s statistics is this: obviously, 50% of our trade is with the EU, but if we take the EU as a whole only about 7% of its trade is with us. So were we to leave the EU and then contemplate the negotiation that would follow, clearly we would not be in the stronger position. I think that is important. The second point I would make—I made this point earlier—is that, yes, we have a trade deficit in goods, but we have a massive trade surplus in services and it is in the single market in services where the prospects for progress are greatest today. So there would be a danger if we were to leave that maybe we would get that deal on goods relatively quickly because of our deficit, but if they held up the deal on services where would all our service companies be? Where would those jobs be? What would we say to those companies about how long it could take to get a deal to safeguard the incomes and prospects of families across our country?
Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
May I congratulate my right hon. Friend on spending 40 hours—apparently four clean shirts and a packet of Haribo—in implementing the Labour party manifesto in his conversations in Brussels? Does this not actually show the problem: that for so much labour he has achieved so little, and that the EU is a failing organisation—a failed common fisheries policy, a failed common agricultural policy, a single market that shackles us with regulation that makes us fundamentally uncompetitive, an immigration system that is betraying people who get to Europe, not to mention the eurozone which, thank heavens, we are not a member of? In this failed organisation, the Prime Minister has said in his statement that we are to make a final decision. It is the one sentence of his statement that I fundamentally agree with: a final decision to be made in June as to whether we stay with a failed body or whether we leave and make our own path. Is the Government’s policy basically,
“And always keep a-hold of Nurse
For fear of finding something worse.”?
The Prime Minister
Obviously, my hon. Friend and I have a profound disagreement about this issue. I very much respect his views because he has held them in good faith for many years, and I have held my view that we need reform, but reform within the EU, for many years. I am sure that we can respect each other in the months of debate ahead.
I do want to take issue a little with my hon. Friend on manifesto delivery. I will not run through the whole thing, but we said that we would legislate for a referendum —we’ve delivered it. We said that we will protect our economy from further integration of the eurozone—that is covered in the settlement. We said that we want powers to flow away from Brussels—that is covered in the settlement. We want national Parliaments to be able to work together to block unwanted European legislation —covered in the settlement. We want an end to our commitment to ever closer union—covered in the settlement. We will ensure that defence policy and national security remain firmly under British national control—covered in the new settlement. We will insist that EU migrants who want to claim tax credits must live here and contribute to our country for four years—covered in the settlement. It is there time and again.
We all stood under this manifesto, and I am proud of it and of the team who put it together and are implementing it. While I say, “Yes, let’s have this vigorous argument”, let us not pretend that we have not delivered the manifesto on which we stood in front of the British people.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
You will be aware, Mr Speaker, that in Slough I am proud to represent an area that has more international headquarters of multinational companies that are investing in Britain than any other place of a similar size. Those companies say to me that they have come here because of the English language, our good transport links, and because we are a gateway to the European market. The bosses of those companies are not saying that very publicly, and during this referendum campaign I invite the Prime Minister to encourage them to talk to those people whose jobs depend on that investment, and to say what would happen if we left Europe, because they tell me that they would leave Britain.
The Prime Minister
I am certainly having that conversation. My message to businesses is: if you have a view, make sure you tell people. Talk to your customers and your suppliers, and above all talk to your employees, your staff and your colleagues, because this issue is so important.
In truth, the business voice, large and small, is very much in favour of Britain staying. Many of them have said quite generous things about this renegotiation because they recognise the dangers, particularly in the area of safeguarding ourselves against discrimination because we are not in the euro. Given that, I hope that business and enterprise will speak clearly in the next four months.
Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con)
Much of the protection of the euro-outs in this agreement rests on a safeguard mechanism that is set out in annex 2, but as far as I can tell, that requires nothing more than that a discussion be held about the UK’s concerns at ECOFIN—not even the European Council. That leaves eurozone members free to enforce their will by qualified majority voting. Will the Prime Minister explain what—beyond the discussion, which can be ignored—has been achieved by the safeguard mechanism?
The Prime Minister
I absolutely can answer that, and I think it is an important question. There are two things here. First, a set of principles is set out in section A on economic governance, and they are principles of non-discrimination, no cost, and no disadvantage. Crucially, paragraph 4—this was of real concern to the Bank of England and I know it will be of concern to my right hon. Friend’s Committee—makes it clear that the financial stability of member states whose currency is not the euro is a matter for their own authorities and own budgetary responsibility. Those principles are very important, and what is exciting about this is not only that they have been set out for the first time, and not only has Europe for the first time accepted that there are other currencies inside the European Union, but those changes will be incorporated into the treaties. The mechanism is something over and above a new way of ensuring that issues are raised, should we wish to raise them, at the level of the European Council. We do not have that protection today, but making the principles part of the treaty—already an international legally binding decision—is hugely important. If my right hon. Friend listens to people who speak on behalf of financial services, the Bank of England and others, he will recognise that this is really important progress for Britain.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
There is still plenty that divides the Prime Minister and me politically, but on this and in the national interest I think he is right to be campaigning for Britain to remain in the European Union. Let me read a quote to him:
“leaving would cause at least some business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for several years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems of this country”.
That was on 7 February. The Mayor of London was right 15 days ago, wasn’t he?
The Prime Minister
What I would say to the hon. Gentleman—and to everyone—is that we must examine what the alternatives are, how much uncertainty there will be, and how long these processes will take. Therein lies the importance of this decision for businesses, families and people’s prospects up and down our country.
Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)
Does the Prime Minister agree that one of the key benefits of his agreement is to give legal clarity to Britain’s special status within the EU? He will be aware of the uncertainties there have been for those advising the Government on the law, which this resolves. Does he also agree that it is wrong to say that this is not legally binding when it is, and that it is irreversible unless we choose otherwise? For those who want to look at the legal niceties, I point to a very long opinion by Professor Sir Alan Dashwood, Queen’s Counsel, the leading EU constitutional lawyer in this country, which can be read on the Henderson chambers website.
The Prime Minister
I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend for what he has said, given that he was a senior Law Officer in the Government. I have also listened very carefully to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), who could not have been clearer on this point. I have also read the judgment by Dashwood and seen the Government’s own legal advice, all of which says that this is legally binding and irreversible. People who question that should look at the Danish protocol, which has been in existence and worked very well for 23 years.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the Prime Minister share my concerns and worries that after 70 years of peace and prosperity any nation begins to take that for granted, as well as the institutions that created that peace and prosperity? I was born on the August weekend in London at the height of the battle of Britain—[Interruption.] Unimaginable. My generation and many people in this country with longer memories know that peace and prosperity are not guaranteed unless we work together across Europe to maintain them day after day, month after month and year after year.
The Prime Minister
I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is worth remembering why this came about in the first place, which was the appalling bloodshed on our continent. People of my generation, very much post-war children, should remember that and then look afresh at the institutions of the EU and try to ensure that this organisation works for this century rather than the last one. That is part of what this agreement is about. I absolutely agree, and I remember, for instance, a meeting of the European Council we once had at the Cloth Hall in Ypres: one cannot sit in that building without thinking of the slaughter that European countries have engaged in in the past.
Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)
I, too, salute my right hon. Friend for honouring his commitment to the British people to offer them a referendum and for his extraordinary stamina over the last week or so while we have been enjoying the recess, but I am afraid that for me this is not the fundamental reform that we were promised. My right hon. Friend has made much of security in his answers today and in the past few weeks, but does he not agree that the security of Europe is dependent on NATO and not on the EU, that it is NATO that is protecting us from further incursion by President Putin, and that we do NATO no good by suggesting that somehow the EU has some competence in this area?
The Prime Minister
I have huge respect for my hon. Friend, who served brilliantly in the last Government, helping to strengthen our defences. I have to say that perhaps 10 or 15 years ago, I might have said the same —that defence was really about NATO and our partnership with America and not about the EU. However, when we consider defence and security in the round today, and how we fight terrorism, yes, it depends on those other relationships, but it also depends on what we do through the EU. I see that every day through the exchange of information. For example, let us take the agreement we also reached at this Council to ensure a strong NATO mission to try to help the situation between Greece and Turkey. It is a NATO mission, which backs up my hon. Friend’s point, but where was some of the conversation about it going on? Where were the Germans, the British and the French sitting together to work out what assets we could supply and how we could get real power into it? It was done around the European Council table. The fact is that we need both. To keep safe in the modern world, to fight terrorism, to fight criminality and to stand up to evil around the world, we must use all the organisations, not just some of them.
Natalie McGarry (Glasgow East) (Ind)
The Prime Minister has played fast and loose with our cultural, social and economic future in Europe for a series of concessions that seem to do nothing to satisfy his Eurosceptic Front Benchers and Back Benchers. Will he now guarantee that his Government’s case for remaining in the EU will stop appeasing them, and instead focus on the many positives of the EU, counteract the leave campaign’s narrow, negative focus on immigration, and commit to ensuring that the public have sufficient information to make a positive, informed choice?
The Prime Minister
We will certainly be fighting a very positive campaign. That campaign will involve a series of documents, some of which were mandated by the other place when it amended the referendum Bill, so we need to set out the alternatives to membership, and the rights and obligations here—the things you get out of and the obligations you have in the EU. We will be talking about the economic case. We will address all those issues. I say to those who are interested in some of the cultural or educational arguments that they should come forward, too. We need a strong voice from universities, as they have a lot to say about this issue—they get a lot out of Europe—and cultural organisations should be speaking out, too.
Nick Herbert (Arundel and South Downs) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that when this country, in our national interest, makes an international agreement of any kind, it may involve a loss of sovereignty? That may be the case through any trade deal, through trading under World Trade Organisation rules and on the single most important decision this House of Commons could take: whether or not to engage in military action. We are treaty-bound by NATO, under article 5, to go to the defence of a fellow member that is under armed attack—that obliges us. In that sense, we have lost sovereignty because we believe it is in the interests of the country to enter that agreement and that it has made us safer. If the claim of “sovereignty” and its loss were the trump card, would not all those international agreements have to be torn up?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend makes an important point: if your only determination was never to cede any technical sovereignty, you would never join any of these organisations, you would not do a trade deal and you probably would not be a member of the UN, the International Monetary Fund or the World Bank. Therefore, the question really is: what maximises our power, influence and ability to get things done? As the Transport Secretary put it so brilliantly at the Cabinet meeting, “I would love to live in utopia but I expect the EU would probably be there, too.” That is to say, you do not abolish the EU by leaving it; you simply cut yourself off from something and therefore possibly make yourself, in many ways, less powerful, rather than more powerful.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
Order. May I gently remind the House that people who wish to take part in the exchanges should have been here at the start and remained throughout? People who have gone in and out of the Chamber, and may have come back in again, should not then be standing. That is very much in breach of the traditions of the House, and we need to be clear about that.
Mr Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab)
One of the bogeymen policies for me was closer political union. If this country votes to stay in the EU on 23 June, what guarantees has the Prime Minister got that these things will be put in statute or written into a treaty at that time?
The Prime Minister
First, this is already an agreement and it will shortly be deposited at the UN as an international law decision. Therefore, it will already by then be legally binding and irreversible. Getting out of ever closer union, and indeed redefining closer union, is so important that I think it needs to go in the treaties, and the agreement here is that when the treaties next change, that will be written into those treaties. We have a double lock on this, a vital point.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
I suggest that this is tinkering; it is certainly not fundamental change. The red card is not a veto; it will not stop the majority of the EU forcing unwanted taxes and regulations on this country. May I put it to the Prime Minister that he should at least accept the possibility that the red card could be turned against us, in that UK-sponsored initiatives could be blocked by the majority of the EU—initiatives that could be in our best interests, such as access and further enhancement of the single market?
The Prime Minister
I do not overstate the red card. It is a new mechanism, not to delay but to properly block initiatives, that is available to national Parliaments should they want to avail themselves of it. To me, this is about another thing that makes this organisation more democratically accountable to national Parliaments. If my hon. Friend is saying that, on some occasions, that might work against us because other national Parliaments might want to stop something on which we were keen, I have to say that I suppose that that is accountability and democracy. The point is that, because of my decision, this organisation will be more democratic rather than less democratic.
Stephen Gethins (North East Fife) (SNP)
As the Prime Minister seems to be getting “nul points” from his own side for these European renegotiations, may I commend him for coming round to Chancellor Merkel’s view on freedom of movement? On freedom of movement, will he assure the House that there will be absolutely no implications from this deal for the hundreds of thousands of UK citizens living in the EU?
The Prime Minister
Of course if we stay in the European Union, British people will continue to be able to work abroad, live abroad and retire abroad, as they do now. It is not for me to set out what would happen to them in different circumstances. I think the leave campaign will want to try to address that point, but people know with certainty what they will get if the remain side wins.
Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)
In his statement, the Prime Minister observed that leaving the EU might briefly make us feel more sovereign. Does he not accept that for many hon. Members, the issue of parliamentary sovereignty will be the central one of the debate in which we are about to engage—namely, that so long as we are subject to the fiat of the European Commission and the European Court of Justice, we will not be truly sovereign, and that very little changed last weekend in that respect?
The Prime Minister
What changed last weekend in that respect is that because we are getting out of ever closer union, we now know that we cannot be forced into further political union against our will; that is very important. On this issue of sovereignty, let me repeat that, if we leave the EU, we might feel more sovereign, because we could pass this law or that law, but if we still want to sell into Europe, we have to meet all the rules over which we will have no say. To me, that is a diminution of sovereignty rather than an increase of sovereignty.
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
On the issue of sovereignty, it has been reported by several news media organisations that the Prime Minister intends to unveil a British sovereignty Bill in the next few days. Will he confirm whether that is the case? If it is, will he tell us what provision he will make in that Bill to recognise that the principle of unlimited sovereignty of Parliament is a distinctively English principle that has no counterpart in Scottish constitutional law?
The Prime Minister
What I have said we should do is to build on what we did in 2011 when we set out that Parliament is sovereign, and just as Parliament can choose to join the EU, it can also choose to leave the EU. That is good for the whole of the United Kingdom. We do have a sovereign Parliament. There are ways that we can add to that, as other countries have done, and I look forward to bringing forward some proposals in the coming days.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
On Friday, 2,500 people packed the QEII Centre to see GO launch the national cross-party leave campaign. Among the speakers were two UK Independence party MEPs, a renowned economic commentator, a senior trade unionist, a much respected Labour MP, the co-chairman of Conservatives for Britain, four Conservative MPs, and the leader of Respect. In 2014, Ruth Davidson, our excellent Conservative leader in Scotland, linked arms with George Galloway in the national interest. Does the Prime Minister agree that Ruth Davidson was right and that sometimes we have to work with people we do not like?
The Prime Minister
Everyone will have to make the choice about what platform they appear on and whom they appear with. I think that the disadvantage of appearing on any platform with either Nigel Farage or George Galloway arises when considering who their friends are, whom they support and the overseas politicians whom they seem to support. Everyone will have to think carefully about whom they want to appear with.
Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)
There has been a lot of talk, quite rightly, about the City of London and big multinational companies working here and investing in this country, but the beating heart of our economy is the small and medium-sized enterprise sector. Some 39% of SMEs in this country export to EU countries, so does the Prime Minister agree that it would be madness to slam the door in their face?
The Prime Minister
I think the overwhelming majority of SMEs that export support the case that I am making. Many companies that are not exporters are involved in the supply chain with companies that do export. That is a point that many business service organisations, banks, accountants and lawyers are very well placed to make.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
I, too, thank my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and all right hon. and hon. Members who voted to have a referendum on EU membership. Will the Prime Minister say whether the agreement that he has reached alters the Lisbon treaty?
The Prime Minister
Obviously, it does. When we change these treaties, this will be, as it were, one of the founding documents of the EU, so the international law agreement, and then in time the treaty changes, will sit alongside other treaties that have been produced in the past. Like my hon. Friend, I regret that so many treaties were made with so little democratic accountability, and I think we are putting that right in two ways: first, with things such as getting out of ever closer union—a distant dream for many of us who used to argue for that but never got it—and secondly, through the democratic accountability of holding a referendum.
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
The Prime Minister has stated explicitly that people who vote to leave the European Union do not love their country. I represent many veterans of the armed services whose patriotism cannot be questioned. Will the Prime Minister apologise to those people?
The Prime Minister
I absolutely did not say that. What I said was that I loved my country, and I think that our country—an amazing country—will be greater and more powerful if we remain in organisations through which we can project our power and influence, and do great things in the world. I do not question the patriotism of anyone in our country—we are all going to have to make a choice—but I believe that Britain’s greatness is not simply the parliamentary democracy that we enjoy and the rights that we have in this country. We are an outward-looking country, and I am proud of the fact that we help, whether with Syrian refugees, chasing down pirates off the Somali coast, or trying to stabilise countries from which many problems come. We can do that, yes, because we are strong; yes, because we have great defence; but also because we are members of NATO, we have a permanent seat at the UN, and we are part of the EU. I think it is technical jargon to call it a force multiplier, but that is what it is, and we should be proud of the role we play in the world.
Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
My right hon. Friend always made it clear that if these negotiations did not succeed he would have no hesitation in recommending that we leave the European Union. Will he place in the Library the papers that cover the contingency plans that would have been used in that eventuality, and will he confirm that in that circumstance he would have had to make the very leap in the dark that he is now vilifying?
The Prime Minister
I have great respect for my hon. Friend, as he has held his views for many years, and believes that Britain would be better off outside the EU. I hope that he respects my views. I have always believed that if we can get reform we are better off in the EU, and that is what I said.
As for the documentation, we will publish something about the alternatives to demonstrate what we believe they are and to demonstrate that we are thinking about what would need to happen if that eventuality came about. As for what we achieved, I am happy to write to my hon. Friend with a list of the things that we said in our manifesto and that we achieved in the renegotiation. I quite accept that colleagues are going to say, “I am going to take a different path from you. I am going to make my own decision.” What I do not accept, however, is that somehow we have not delivered the overwhelming majority of what we promised to the British people at the election.
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
Will the Prime Minister tell the House whether he thinks rural communities in Britain would be better or worse off in the EU?
The Prime Minister
I represent a rural community—400 square miles of beautiful west Oxfordshire. There will be a range of views in my constituency, but I know when I talk to many of those who are responsible for producing food and for looking after our local environment that they see strong advantages from remaining in the European Union.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
Does the Prime Minister agree that negotiating a special status deal, which he has done, is a demonstration of sovereignty at its best, because he is promoting this country’s interests in a rigorous way, ensuring that we are stronger, safer and more economically prosperous, and that that manifests itself in many aspects of the deal and in the way that we will behave as a nation state within the European Union in the future?
The Prime Minister
I am grateful for what my hon. Friend says. I think it demonstrates that although that organisation is imperfect and sometimes can be inflexible, it did show flexibility. One country came along with a manifesto pledge to renegotiate its position and a set of changes that it wanted to achieve, and by and large we have achieved them. That is a sign that the organisation can be flexible, which is incredibly important. If we had not been able to achieve any of this, I would have had deep questions about whether we could stay in such an organisation, but it has demonstrated flexibility and that is all to the good.
Danny Kinahan (South Antrim) (UUP)
As many Members know, I am fiercely proud of Northern Ireland and its place in the world as a global trader, and I know we benefit a great deal from the EU. Will the Prime Minister make clear the benefits to us on our borders and for our farmers, our fishermen and all the people who rely on international trade?
The Prime Minister
I look forward to coming to Northern Ireland to make exactly those points. When we look at the special status that Northern Ireland has been given in terms of vital grants, the important co-operation as part of the common travel area with the Republic, and the way we have already reformed the common agricultural policy and the common fisheries policy, it is clear that there is more to be done, but money goes into Northern Ireland through those programmes. I am happy to talk about all those things in the Province.
Jeremy Quin (Horsham) (Con)
The Prime Minister referred to resolving the issue for a generation. Will a treaty change to incorporate our changes and perhaps to allow greater integration of the eurozone require a further referendum in the UK?
The Prime Minister
That is a very good question. It would depend on what was in that treaty. If the eurozone members were to bring forward treaty changes to change the nature of the eurozone, but without in any way affecting competencies here in Britain, I suspect we would be able to get our changes on ever closer union and on the governance surrounding the eurozone into that treaty. Whether or not such a treaty change requires a referendum simply depends on whether it passes competencies from Britain to Brussels. If the answer is yes, we have to have a referendum; if the answer is no, we do not.
George Kerevan (East Lothian) (SNP)
In his statement the Prime Minister said, “Responsibility for supervising the financial stability of the UK will always remain in the hands of the Bank of England”, but we already share that responsibility with the European Banking Authority and we are already signed up to the single rulebook of that authority. How is the Prime Minister’s statement compatible with the view of Mr Andrea Enria, the head of the European Banking Authority, who says that that institution must be the dominant player in setting rules, particularly if Britain wishes to keep the pound and stay within a single European financial regulation?
The Prime Minister
The answer to that question required something like 35 hours of negotiation because it is so important. Let me try to précis it. Of course there are the banking union arrangements, and the eurozone countries need to have their banks properly scrutinised and regulated at a European level. We have our own currency and our own banking supervision arrangements. In trying to supervise a complex, large economy such as Britain, which has one of the largest financial centres anywhere in the world, not just banks but other financial institutions such as central counterparties are systemically important. That is so important because ultimately we need to make sure that whatever the eurozone does, we are protected by the Bank of England playing the role and being able to intervene to resolve and to supervise those systemically important institutions. That is what paragraph 4 is about.
Although that sounds very technical, at its heart is actually something fantastically important: if Britain—fifth largest economy in the world, important financial centre—cannot have fair rules in an organisation where the euro is obviously a very large currency, there really would be a case for saying, “Hold on a second. This is a single currency-only organisation. We’d better leave.” So it was absolutely crucial to get it settled—technical but, in the end, fundamentally important—whether we can get fair treatment inside this organisation, and the answer is yes we can.
Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)
This great exercise in democracy is not about what we say in this House, but about what our constituents decide, and my constituents, like many others, will be interested in the things that affect them: the economic protection and the jobs that the new reformed EU and the single trade zone can bring. They do not want the euro, they do not want the Euro superstate and they do not want something for nothing in welfare. Will the Prime Minister confirm for my constituents and for constituents across the country that that is what he has negotiated and that that is why it would be wrong to take a leap in the dark?
The Prime Minister
I am very happy to make that point. I do not know whether I will make it to Wimbledon, but I hope to make it to many parts of our country over the next four months to make exactly that point. We have not solved all of Britain’s problems with Europe—we have not solved all of Europe’s problems—but we have fundamentally addressed four major problems: too much of a single currency club, too much regulation, too much of a political union and not enough national determination over free-movement abuse and welfare. Those four things go to the heart of the problems we have had with this organisation.
Mr Speaker
As the Prime Minister knows very well, it is always worth while going to Wimbledon.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
Will the Prime Minister welcome the support he has received today, surprisingly, from the Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, who has joined his campaign and who supports it, or will he encourage the people of Northern Ireland to stay in tune with his Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, who has indicated very strongly, in tune with them, that they should leave? If he is not going to support his Secretary of State, will he, then, follow the Deputy First Minister’s advice that she should resign? Will he now support his Secretary of State?
The Prime Minister
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland does an excellent job. She is exercising her ability to reach a personal decision and to campaign for Britain to leave the EU, and it is absolutely right she is able to do that. The key thing is that everyone in Northern Ireland should make up their own mind based on the evidence, and I look forward to coming to try to help persuade them to remain in a reformed EU.
Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)
Does the Prime Minister accept that the thousands of my constituents, the hundreds of thousands of constituents in London and the millions of constituents across the UK who work in financial services will be glad that he, at least, values their jobs, even if the Leader of the Opposition appears to dismiss them? Will he also recognise that the economic governance package is an important win for a strategic British interest and, therefore, that the pragmatic and businesslike thing is not to walk away from a market we are in, but to stay in it, improve it and make it work better?
The Prime Minister
I certainly agree with that. We should recognise that there are something like a million jobs in finance in Glasgow and Edinburgh—I think there are almost a million jobs in Manchester and Birmingham. The key point here is this: because we are in the single market, we have the right to passport—that is, to have a bank or a financial services company here in Britain that can trade throughout the EU. Leave the single market, and you lose that right. What would then have to happen is that companies based in the UK would have to move at least some of their jobs to another European country—that is why HSBC said the other day they would lose 1,000 jobs. So real jobs, real people’s salaries and real prosperity are under threat. We really need to explain this. It is complicated, but there is no doubt in my mind: leaving the single market for financial services would mean fewer jobs in Britain.
Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)
It was interesting to hear the Prime Minister use the word “divorce” in connection with some of the less than helpful comments from the Mayor of London. I think we are all now fully aware that hell hath no fury like a Bullingdon boy scorned. I will be voting to stay in the European Union, and I will help the Prime Minister to convince others. However, if he has had such a good deal, why is he struggling to convince so many in his own party?
The Prime Minister
Some people have very long-standing views about wanting to leave the EU. The point I was making about starting divorce proceedings on the basis of renewing the wedding vows is that that is what some people seem to be suggesting, not just the Mayor of London but others—that somehow starting the process of leaving will mean being offered a better deal to stay. I think that is just not the case. We could think about it like this: divorcing not just one person but 27 potentially unhappy partners. While I yield to no one in my belief that I can bring people back, I have seen multiple weddings take place but I have never seen multiple divorce negotiations resulting in a multiple wedding—that would be something!
Ben Howlett (Bath) (Con)
May I join other Members in congratulating the Prime Minister and the Minister for Europe on their sterling work in Brussels last week? I agree that this reform produces a fundamental change in British-EU relations, at least in my living memory. Speaking as someone who started out on my career in 2008, at the beginning of the great recession, the possibility of entering into new turmoil within the economy fills an awful lot of young people with dread. That is why I will be joining the Prime Minister on the in campaign. Does he agree that it is absolutely vital for Britain’s economic security that we remain inside the European Union?
The Prime Minister
I very much hope that young people will have a very strong voice in this campaign, because, as my hon. Friend says, we have been through difficult economic times, and at a time of uncertainty, why add extra risk?
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
Does the Prime Minister agree with me and with London’s Mayor, who said two weeks ago that
“it is in Britain’s geo-strategic interests to be pretty intimately engaged in the doings of a continent that has a grim 20th-century history, and whose agonies have caused millions of Britons to lose their lives”,
and that the best way of staying “pretty intimately engaged” is to remain a member of the European Union?
The Prime Minister
I do agree with that. As I have said, if we leave the EU, it does not cease to exist, but it would continue to have an impact on our lives and on our world, so the best thing to do is to try to alter it from within.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
Order. I will try to accommodate remaining colleagues, but short questions are now required. We are having pithy answers but we need short questions.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
As someone who has an open mind and can see competing arguments on both sides, may I ask that we ensure that the information used in the campaign is factually correct? A few weeks ago, a letter criticising the Prime Minister appeared in The Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail, apparently signed by a local Conservative activist from my constituency, linking the association to the letter, yet no one had ever heard of that person. May I ask that information put forward by both sides is fair, accurate and factually correct so that the British public can decide on the basis of fair evidence?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an important point. We are producing a series of documents and we must make sure that the information is accurate.
Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Prime Minister reiterate what is surely at the heart of this matter—that if the UK left the EU, we would almost certainly end up having to continue to implement the vast majority of EU rules and regulations if we wanted to access, on the same sort of terms, the single market, and the only difference would be that we would no longer get a say in those terms?
The Prime Minister
I think that is right. I have had a lot of conversations with the Norwegian Prime Minister about this. Of course, you do not have to opt for the Norwegian option, but if you do, you implement the directives but have no say over how they are put in place.
Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)
For the first time in my lifetime, people in Worcester will be able to have a genuine say on this issue. I thank the Prime Minister for that fact, and also for the huge effort that he has put into negotiating Britain’s corner in Europe. In the 2010 election manifesto on which he was made Prime Minister and I came to this House, we said that we would bring in a UK sovereignty Bill to assert the sovereignty of our country and make sure that this Parliament took final decisions. Does he agree that sovereignty can be asserted by this House and is not just something for us to argue over?
The Prime Minister
We introduced a sovereignty clause in the referendum provisions of the European Union Act 2011, and I am looking at enhancing that and adding it to the proposals that will come forward.
Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab)
Given that so many of my constituents work in the City of London, I welcome what the Prime Minister has said about making sure that we have a strong global financial centre that enjoys all the benefits of access to the largest single market. Given that, may I offer the Prime Minister a once-in-a-Parliament opportunity to campaign in my constituency on this issue? Given that there are those in Frankfurt and Dublin who would love to get their hands on Britain’s financial services, and that the Mayor of London has given up his day job to think about his next job, may I also ask the Prime Minister to send a very clear message to my constituents and all Londoners that London is stronger in Europe?
The Prime Minister
I would be delighted to come to the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and to case the joint for the future. He is right. It is interesting that Chris Cummings, the chief executive of TheCityUK, has said:
“The City is Europe’s financial centre and the UK’s membership of the European Union (EU) is of strategic importance to the financial and related professional services industry. Business opinion both within and beyond our industry is that continuing membership is important to Britain’s competitiveness”.
Business organisations covering finance, insurance, manufacturing and engineering are all making their views clear, and I think we should listen to them.
James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con)
The Prime Minister will be aware that since 2010 unemployment has fallen by 50% in my constituency, that investment in the black country has gone up and that the west midlands economy is growing. Does he agree that full access to the single market, which focuses on jobs and growth, is critical for the security and jobs of people in my constituency and across the west midlands?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We have seen an industrial renaissance in the west midlands, with more people in work and with growth, particularly in the automotive sector. Such sectors are a part of complex supply chains right across Europe and it would be a huge dislocation if we were to leave.
Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Access to labour and the protection of workers’ rights and of human rights are just some of the benefits of our membership of the EU; they are beneficial for our workers, businesses and citizens. It must perturb the Prime Minister, therefore, that his Justice Secretary, Work and Pensions Secretary and Minister for Employment are poster boys and girls for the out campaign. How will he ensure that those positive reasons for remaining are at the forefront of this campaign?
The Prime Minister
We are dealing with an issue that has caused divisions and differences within parties right across this House. Twenty-three of the people who sit around the Cabinet table are very much convinced that we should be better off in the EU, and six take a different view. I do not think we should be concerned about that. This is a referendum—it is the people’s choice, not the politicians’ choice.
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that now is the time for realpolitik? We are no longer an imperial power able to demand what we want and get it. We live in a fragile and increasingly volatile world in all senses of those terms. Does not our membership of the EU, together with our seat on the Security Council of the United Nations, our membership of NATO and our position at the head of the Commonwealth, provide an ideal platform for us to promote Britain both here and abroad? That is why we should stay in.
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Membership of those organisations helps us not only to get things done for our people and our country, but to make progress on the issues we care about around the world.
Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
The Prime Minister deserves credit for the deal he has got; I will be able to campaign for it with confidence. He is right to say that the three different leave campaigns are unable to say what leave would really look like, but given that he will have to do the negotiations in the event of an out vote, it is also incumbent on him to tell us what leave would look like. When he sets out the alternatives, will he explain specifically what leave, as well as stay, would look like?
The Prime Minister
We will, as a Government, set out what we believe the alternatives are. There is the Swiss model, which took nine years to negotiate, and we have discussed the Norwegian model today. The World Trade Organisation option means that we could face tariffs every time we try to sell a car into the EU. The Canada free trade deal has not yet been agreed, but it does not cover all services so we could be seriously disadvantaged. We need to go into detail on each of those and put accurate information in place so that people can see what is on offer.
David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister agree that critical to the success of his campaign will be his ability to convince people that, by giving up some sovereignty in Britain, we have gained sovereignty and authority in Europe?
The Prime Minister
Clearly, that is going to be the challenge of the coming months. As I have said, I have no selfish interest in this; I will just tell it as I see it. As I have learned over six years of being Prime Minister, this organisation is imperfect and can sometimes be frustrating, but we are better off in it. I profoundly believe that and I will take that message around the country.
Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)
People in Scotland are entitled to hear the clear and positive case for remaining in the EU, and to make their decisions on the basis of hearing all the arguments in full. The Prime Minister spoke today about the importance of taking account of the express will of the people. Will he undertake to take full account of the express view of the Scottish people and ensure that if we vote to remain, we are not removed from the EU against our will?
The Prime Minister
I very much look forward to taking this message to Scotland and campaigning in Scotland. I enjoyed doing that during the independence referendum, and I look forward to making the argument again that we are better off together. It is a one United Kingdom decision.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
The out voices have been dominant for a long time. If my right hon. Friend had come back as emperor of Europe, they would have complained that it was an idea from Rome. The biggest questions that I have been asked by my constituents are: what are the positives, and what should we be voting on? I urge my right hon. Friend to speak in this campaign about the positives to the economy, to security and to the military, and to make the point that nothing can be more sovereign than 46 million people having their say.
The Prime Minister
Absolutely right. We should talk not only about the conceptual benefits of free trade and open markets, but about the simple and practical benefits. We are free to travel, work, live and retire anywhere in Europe. Because of open skies, the price of going on holiday and taking a flight anywhere in Europe has come down by something like 40%. When you travel, you will hopefully soon be able to access your digital content on your iPad, so that you can watch whatever you are watching wherever you are in Europe. [Interruption.] I think I have been doing this for too long, but you get the point.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
Many of my constituents are somewhat nonplussed about the EU question, but they are hugely concerned about the future of the UK steel industry. Does the Prime Minister believe that the UK steel industry will have a brighter future if we remain in Europe or if we leave?
The Prime Minister
That is a very important point. There are huge challenges not just in our steel industry but right across Europe, and that is increasingly being talked about around the European Council table. However difficult it is—and it is difficult—I think we have a better chance of dealing with Chinese overcapacity, dumping and all the rest of it if we work as the biggest market in the world of 500 million people. Of course, we can get some things done as the fifth largest economy talking to China, but as part of 500 million, I think we can get more action.
Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con)
The number of unemployed claimants in my constituency has fallen by 80% since 2010. Does the Prime Minister agree that to leave the EU now, at a time of economic global uncertainty, would risk a reversal of the progress that has been made?
The Prime Minister
I am delighted with the unemployment performance in my hon. Friend’s constituency. There is a simple point here: we live in uncertain times. We have made good progress on the economy. We should try to take the risks away from that economic performance, and clearly changing our status in such a radical way would be a risk.
Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP)
We have been enriched by freedom of movement, we have been made safer by co-operation and we remain relevant in global terms because of our seat in the European Union. All of that and more is, unfortunately, now at risk. With that in mind, will the Prime Minister put some punch into a positive fight to remain in Europe? Would it not be ironic if this Conservative Prime Minister left it to the Scottish National party to save Britain from itself?
The Prime Minister
I hope I have demonstrated today that there is plenty of punch in this campaign, and it will be positive, too. I make no apology for saying that in making a positive campaign about jobs, about business and about competitiveness, we should also examine the alternatives. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing that.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
As a member of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, I have seen NATO operations around the world, including Operation Ocean Shield against Somali pirates. Does the Prime Minister agree that it is the 28 member nations of NATO—including non-EU countries such as Norway, Turkey, Iceland, the United States and Canada—that are delivering our international security, not an EU army?
The Prime Minister
We do not want an EU army, and the document clearly says that our national security is a reserved matter for nation states. It puts that beyond doubt. When you look in detail at what, for instance, both NATO and the EU are doing off the coast of Somalia, or at what is happening in the Mediterranean with NATO in the east and the EU in the south, you see that we need to be in both organisations. You do not just talk about one organisation while you are in that organisation; you address NATO questions when you are sitting around the table with other EU leaders.
Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)
The UK’s membership of the EU has been a force for good for trade, jobs, investment and international co-operation. As the Prime Minister has recognised, the EU is a fundamental part of the architecture that has promoted prosperity and kept the peace in Europe after the ravages of two world wars. Does he agree that those who are campaigning so aggressively to reject his renegotiations and cut Britain loose in the modern world are on the wrong side not only of the big arguments but of history?
The Prime Minister
How best to engage in Europe has always been a challenge for our country. There is a strong case for saying that when we have tried to cut ourselves off, it has ended in disaster and the need to re-engage. We should always work to get our engagement right, which is what this deal is all about.
David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)
There is nobody in this House more Eurosceptic than myself, but I am standing at the side of the Prime Minister on this one, because the Prime Minister has always stood by me and my people in Morecambe. In my constituency, we have the port of Heysham, through which 10% of our GDP passes, most of it from Northern Ireland. We also have two EDF nuclear power stations, which are sponsored by the French Government. I do not want jobs to be lost in my constituency, especially as its unemployment rate is the lowest it has been for generations. Does my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister agree with me on that synopsis?
The Prime Minister
I certainly agree that this is about jobs and about livelihoods. My hon. Friend stands up very well for his constituents. I remember visiting not that long ago, when we looked at the Heysham link road. I even hammered a rivet into one vital bridge; I just hope it survives.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
The Prime Minister indicated in the House on 3 February and today that a series of documents would be published in relation to the reform proposals. On 3 February, he referred to the impact of an exit on the free movement of people within Ireland—in particular, the removal of that free movement. Will he confirm when those documents will be made available to enable us, as people who want to remain in the EU, to have a full, robust and earnest discussion?
The Prime Minister
I do not have the dates for the hon. Lady of when those documents will be published, but I will try to make sure that when we look at alternatives and consequences, we address the question of the border between the Republic and Northern Ireland, and the issue of movement of people that could be triggered by that.
Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)
One word that seemed to crop up around the reporting of the summit was “contagion”, as though other states following the Prime Minister’s lead would be a bad thing. Does the Prime Minister agree that contagion could be a good thing and that we should encourage it? The one-size-fits-all Europe of the 1970s and 1980s is a thing of the past, and the recognition of more than one currency is a good example of that. We have taken a lead that has set reform in train.
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is right. Europe will never work if we try to make everyone be one-size-fits-all. If a country such as Britain raises concerns, it is right that they are addressed, and I am glad that they have been.
Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)
Approximately 30,000 of the UK citizens living in the European Union whom my hon. Friend the Member for North East Fife (Stephen Gethins) referred to—interestingly, we call them expats rather than economic migrants—claim benefits in the European Union countries in which they live. How will the package that the Prime Minister has negotiated affect them?
The Prime Minister
What we have negotiated is a welfare mechanism that the European Commission has said applies to Britain now, so we are able to pull this emergency brake and restrict benefits for seven years. It is for other countries to determine whether they qualify and whether they are able to do that, but I am in no doubt that it applies right away in the UK, which is what I was determined to secure.
Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
The Prime Minister will be aware that we have trading partners and military allies outside the EU. Has he had any representations from those allies and trading partners about whether they see us as being better in the EU or outside?
The Prime Minister
I would say that in all the conversations I have had with our partners, our neighbours and countries around the world that look to us as friends, I have been quite surprised by just how unanimous and how passionate they have been. I would totally disabuse people of the idea that, for instance, there is any sense that some of the countries of the Commonwealth might want Britain to step back from Europe and form some sort of new relationship with them. The Prime Ministers of New Zealand, Canada and Australia, and the President of America, could not be clearer in thinking that Britain should stay in a reformed European Union, and in that way make sure that Europe is looking out to them and signing trade deals with them, which is exactly what we should do.
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)
While the referendum campaign is in progress in the United Kingdom, Europe will continue to host and witness the worst humanitarian crisis we have seen in the past 70 years. Last summer, shameful attempts were made in the media and elsewhere to link that crisis to our membership of the European Union. Will the Prime Minister give us an assurance that whatever happens in the Mediterranean over the next three months, the United Kingdom’s response will be based solely on humanitarian necessity and will not be influenced by how it might impact on the referendum campaign?
The Prime Minister
Of course, we will do what is right. In the context of our membership, it is important to address the issue of migration. I would make a number of points. First, we are obviously outside Schengen and will remain outside Schengen, so people coming to the EU do not have an automatic right to come to Britain. Secondly, I would make the point that we are doing a very responsible thing in taking refugees directly from the region. Thirdly, we are working with our European partners to secure the external border. At the end of the day, whether we are in the EU or out of the EU, we are affected by this problem in Europe, so we should be working with our partners to make sure that they can better control, and in some cases stop, the flow of people to Europe.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
Some argue that we will be able to forge better deals across the world by leaving the European Union, but in the three years that I have been a trade envoy I have not yet met a single representative of any of the 10 members of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations that believes our trade and investment prospects would be better if we left the EU. Does my right hon. Friend therefore agree that the referendum is not about whether we should do business with Europe or with the rest of the world, but about the fact that we should and must do business with both, as we are, and that those with whom we most want a free trade agreement will always prioritise the EU?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend puts it in absolutely the right way. It is not an either/or. We are expanding our trade in south-east Asia—we have doubled our trade with China since I became Prime Minister—but I am struck, as he is, by the fact that countries are not saying, “Get out of the EU and sign a trade deal with us”. They are saying, “Stick in the EU and make sure it signs a trade deal, because it will be bigger and it will be better.”
Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
The Prime Minister articulates the case in the national interest well. However, I have heard unconfirmed rumours that he has been exploiting the situation among Conservative Members for his own self-interest by opening a private book on his successor. Will the Prime Minister confirm that? Will he give us an inkling of where the money is flowing, and will he guarantee to extend the syndicate to the rest of us?
The Prime Minister
My father, whom I miss every day, was an inveterate gambler. I remember nothing so much as sitting with him on a Saturday and watching him bet on race after race. While I enjoyed all that, I have tried to stick away from it myself, so I am not running a book. All I know is that I will do the right thing for this country, and the right thing for this country is to remain in a reformed EU.
James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)
Moody’s has today warned that it could cut Britain’s credit rating in the event of Brexit. It justifies that thus:
“Unless the UK managed to negotiate a new trade arrangement with the EU that preserves at least some of the trade benefits of EU membership, the UK’s exports would suffer. It would likely lead to a prolonged period of uncertainty, which would negatively affect investment.”
Is that project fear or a warning from the real world?
The Prime Minister
There are important economic consequences that we need to lay out so that people can see the potential downsides of what I think is a leap in the dark. We have set out a lot this afternoon about how long it would take to put trade deals in place and about how damaging that could be. It would be irresponsible not to be put in front of the British people the consequences of the outcomes.
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
There is one deal the Prime Minister has always had control over, which is the disbursement of common agricultural policy payments to farmers. Will he pledge to pass on the €187 million convergence uplift that the EU has provided to the UK? It is actually based on the payments that Scottish farmers receive, which are the lowest in Europe. That would make it much easier to campaign in Scotland with farmers.
The Prime Minister
I will look carefully at what the hon. Gentleman says. My memory of the CAP deal—the finance deal and its consequences—is that we actually gave the devolved Administrations a huge amount of leeway to determine the right way to spend their money. I think farmers actually benefit from the way in which this is done, but I will look carefully at the point he makes.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
May I thank the Prime Minister for all his work on behalf of our country over the past weeks, months and, indeed, years?
Exports to China from Germany, France and the UK have all shown significant increases. Does that not that show that the opportunities for trade outside the EU are not, as some would have it, constrained by membership of the EU?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. You do not expand your trade with China by doing less trade with the EU. We want to do both.
Alberto Costa (South Leicestershire) (Con)
Last year, every colleague on the Government side of the House stood successfully under the leadership of my right hon. Friend and under the one nation Conservative team banner. Does the Prime Minister agree that whatever the views of Conservative Members—I am fully supportive of him—and whatever the outcome of the European Union referendum, we must unify once again as a party to ensure that whoever leads our party into the 2020 election does not accidentally allow Jeremy Corbyn and his Labour colleagues into government?
The Prime Minister
I agree. This is always going to be a difficult process. In the Labour party, as well as in the Conservative party, there are people on both sides of the debate. However, this is such a big question—one that will ultimately be answered by the people, rather than by politicians—that we should all be big enough to have an honest and open, but polite disagreement, and then come back together again afterwards.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
May I take the Prime Minister back to another election commitment? In 2014, he and I, along with thousands of Conservative activists, campaigned on a promise, which was emblazoned across our leaflets, to restore control of our borders. The Prime Minister followed that up in the same year, saying that
“I will go to Brussels, I will not take no for an answer and when it comes to free movement: I will get what Britain needs.”
What changed last week?
The Prime Minister
What changed last week is that we are reforming free movement to make sure that we can keep out fraudsters, criminals and those peddling sham marriages, and to make sure that we can apply British rules to foreign nationals coming in as European citizens, just as we do to our own citizens. There are a whole set of changes. To be fair to the Home Secretary, she negotiated incredibly hard, knowing that this was the one moment in which we had the ability to make these changes—reversing European Court of Justice judgments—and to reform free movement, and that is exactly what we have done.
Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)
May I first thank my right hon. Friend for the referendum? He and I fundamentally disagree, as he knows. My concern is about immigration, which he said he would contain. We have net migration to this country of about 240,000 every year at the moment. In three years—I repeat, every three years— that is between 700,000 or 750,000, which is the size of the city of Leeds. Surely that is unsustainable. What he has negotiated will not prevent that from happening.
The Prime Minister
Where I agree with my hon. Friend is that we have got to do more to control immigration. Net migration to the UK is now made up roughly half and half of those from outside the EU—there is still more we need to do to shut down the bogus colleges and to make sure that people are not coming in unfairly—and those from within the EU, where one of the most important things we can do is to withdraw the artificial draw of additional welfare payments. The fact that people can get £10,000 in the first year they come to this country is surely an important determining factor. I am convinced that, with the correct measures, we can get immigration down while remaining a member of the European Union.
Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
During the general election, it was reported that the Prime Minister had expressed some concern about the BBC’s coverage of the election and its impartiality. What assurances can he give me, so that I can relay them to my constituents, that the BBC will not abuse its position again?
The Prime Minister
Politicians complaining about the BBC is a pretty common activity. I remember the former First Minister of Scotland getting quite heated about this issue. Every media organisation is under an obligation—sorry, let me restate that, because it is certainly not true of the newspapers. Every regulated television business is under a duty of impartiality, and I am sure the BBC will carry that out.
Mr Speaker
I thank the Prime Minister, other colleagues and, indeed, all 103 Back Benchers who have taken part in this important exchange.
Points of Order
(8 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have made the office of the Minister for Community and Social Care aware of my intention to make this point of order, as well as your good office. Last week, after much delay, the long- awaited report by the Mental Health Taskforce, which was commissioned by NHS England, was published. On the same day, the Government made a series of apparent announcements to the media in response to the report—a courtesy that is yet to be afforded to this House.
This is a vital moment for mental health in England, so it is highly regrettable that the report was published during a recess, preventing Members from all parts of the House from scrutinising its findings and questioning the Government’s response to it. Will you advise me, Mr Speaker, of whether you have received any indication from Ministers that they intend to make a statement on the Mental Health Taskforce report and allow Members the opportunity to question the Government on the announcements they have made?
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her point of order and for her courtesy in giving me notice of it. The short answer to the last part of her point of order is no. I have received no indication that a Minister intends to make a statement on the matter. What I would say provisionally, having learned of this matter only a small number of moments ago, is that significant announcements of changes of policy should be made first to the House. That means, save in cases of emergency, that they should be made to the House while it is sitting. Of course, right hon. and hon. Members and others can and do access reports whether or not the House is sitting and may pursue their contents in debate and in questions. I will cause further inquiries to be made on the content and timing of this particular announcement.
Alberto Costa (South Leicestershire) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) may inadvertently have misled the House when referring to parliamentary sovereignty and its effect across the United Kingdom. Specifically, I seek your guidance on how we can put it on the record that parliamentary sovereignty, according to Diceyan jurisprudence, applies equally in Scotland and England, notwithstanding the 1953 MacCormick case, which was obiter dicta of course?
Mr Speaker
I say two things to the hon. Gentleman. First, I say very gently—I am trying to be kind to him because he is a new Member, albeit an extremely distinguished fellow—that if he wants to raise points of order and argue the toss about the proprieties of parliamentary procedure, perhaps he might learn that he should refer to the Leader of the Opposition as the Leader of the Opposition, not call him by name. People have to be careful that they are on sound ground if they start playing the procedural card.
Secondly, I say very kindly to the hon. Gentleman, whose intellect and eloquence are evident to all, not least to the hon. Gentleman himself, that this does not seem to be a point of order. It is an argument, albeit a cerebral and doubtless high-minded argument, between opposing lawyers. We will leave it there for now.
Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Bill
(8 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
The Bill gives effect to key elements of the fresh start agreement of 2015 and the Stormont House agreement of 2014. It is an important stage in the implementation of those agreements, which, taken together, have the potential to help us to secure a more peaceful, stable and prosperous future for Northern Ireland.
Before turning to the detail of the clauses, I will remind the House of the background to their contents. As the House will recall, following just over 10 weeks of intensive talks, the Government, the Northern Ireland Executive parties and the Irish Government reached the Stormont House agreement on 23 December 2014. It addressed many of the most significant challenges facing Northern Ireland. Some of those challenges, such as the long-standing disagreements over flags, parading and the past, were deeply damaging to political relationships within the devolved Executive and were fuelling community divisions. Others, particularly the state of the Executive’s finances and disagreements over welfare reform, were jeopardising the effectiveness and sustainability of devolution itself.
The Stormont House agreement included proposals to give the Executive a workable and sustainable budget; to set a path towards resolving contentious issues around flags, symbols and parading; to establish new bodies to help to tackle the legacy of Northern Ireland’s past; and to deliver reforms at Stormont to make devolution work better. All of that was underpinned by a financial package that gave the Executive about £2 billion of extra spending power.
The Stormont House agreement was and remains a good deal for Northern Ireland. However, by last summer, it was clear that implementation had stalled. That was largely due to disagreements in the Executive over the budget and finances, at the heart of which was the decision by the nationalist parties to withdraw their support for the welfare reform package agreed at Stormont Castle the preceding December. As the stand-off continued, it had the knock-on effect of preventing decisions on other elements of the agreement from being taken. Sadly, the sense of crisis was intensified by two brutal murders in Belfast, one in May and one in August, which once again raised the spectre of the malign influence of continued paramilitary activity on the streets of Northern Ireland.
As we entered last autumn, the political situation looked increasingly perilous. We faced the prospect that resignations might trigger early Assembly elections. That could easily have led to the collapse of the devolved institutions and a return to direct rule from Westminster. That would have been a major setback after all that has been achieved under successive Governments during the past 20 years. It was an outcome that the Government acted strenuously and decisively to avoid.
First, in a speech in Cambridge on 5 September, I made it clear that we could not let the financial impasse continue indefinitely and that if there was no resolution to the dispute, we would be left with no option but to legislate in Westminster for welfare reform.
Secondly, following discussions with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, it was decided that the time was right to convene a second round of cross-party talks, which began at Stormont House on 8 September. Once again, the talks included the five largest parties in the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Irish Government on matters for which they are responsible, in accordance with the long-established three-stranded approach to Northern Ireland affairs. The objectives we set ourselves were twofold: to secure the full implementation of the Stormont House agreement and to deal with the impact of continued paramilitary activity.
The talks once again lasted for 10 weeks and concluded on 17 November with a document entitled “A Fresh Start: The Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan”, which was agreed between the UK Government, the Irish Government and the two parties representing a majority of Unionists and nationalists in the Executive. In the Government’s view, that agreement goes a long way towards satisfying the objectives that the participants in the talks set themselves. It gives the Executive a stable and sustainable budget that includes welfare reform; it unblocks progress on other crucial elements of the Stormont House agreement, including institutional reform; and it strongly reaffirms support for the rule of law and places fresh obligations on Northern Ireland’s political representatives to work together with determination to rid society of paramilitary activity and groups. This agreement, like the previous one, was underpinned by a financial package from the UK Government, this time worth up to £500 million.
I can inform the House that progress on the implementation of the fresh start agreement has been good. On 18 November, the day after it was reached, the Assembly passed a legislative consent motion for Westminster to go ahead with welfare legislation. The subsequent Northern Ireland (Welfare Reform) Act 2015 was given Royal Assent on 25 November and the related order was passed in early December. The Government are working closely with the Executive on the extensive secondary legislation that is required to deliver the new welfare system in Northern Ireland. We hope to be in a position to begin bringing that forward shortly, with a view to completing its passage through both Houses as soon as we can.
On 21 December, the UK and Irish Governments, along with the Northern Ireland Executive, established a Joint Agency Task Force to reinforce efforts to tackle cross-jurisdictional organised crime. The Executive have established the three-person panel envisaged by the agreement to make recommendations for a broad-ranging strategy to disband paramilitary groups. The appointments process for the new flags commission is under way. A Bill to reduce the number of Government Departments from 12 to nine has completed its consideration in the Assembly. A further Bill to reduce the number of Members of the Legislative Assembly per constituency from six to five is set for its final stage of consideration in the Assembly tomorrow.
The Bill before the House today represents further significant progress, dealing with elements of the fresh start agreement that require UK Government legislation. Clauses 1 to 5 make provision to put into effect a treaty, to be agreed between the UK and Irish Governments, that will establish the independent reporting commission. The Bill sets out the commission’s primary objective to promote progress towards ending paramilitary activity connected with Northern Ireland. It will report on progress towards that objective and on the implementation of relevant measures by the UK Government, the Irish Government and the Executive that were agreed in the fresh start agreement. The Bill makes provision for key aspects of the new commission’s work, including the duties to which it will be subject and the legal privileges to be conferred on it as an international body. These are intended to ensure that the commission is able to engage with a range of sources of information in performing its important functions, but will avoid doing anything that might put life, safety or national security at risk. I appreciate that hon. Members will wish to see the text of the treaty. It has not been possible to provide that today, because it has not yet been agreed between the UK and Irish Governments, but we will of course place a copy in the Library of the House in due course as soon as we can.
Clause 6 and schedule 1 will extend the time available for the allocation of ministerial positions in the Executive from seven to 14 days after the Assembly meets following an election. The purpose of the change, as set out in the Stormont House agreement, is to allow parties more time to agree a programme for government on a cross-party basis prior to the allocation of ministerial positions. It is hoped that this will encourage a more bipartisan approach to the programme for government.
Clause 7 will amend the pledge of office for Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive, reflecting strong commitments set out in the fresh start agreement to give unequivocal support for the rule of law and to work collectively to achieve a society free of paramilitarism once and for all. Clause 8 will introduce a similar undertaking by all Members of the Assembly.
Clause 9 will implement the commitments in the fresh start agreement for the UK Government to legislate, with Assembly consent, to increase fiscal transparency in Executive budgets, thus helping the Executive to deliver an affordable and sustainable budget.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
If I may take the Secretary of State back to clause 8, I am very pleased about the introduction of a new pledge for all MLAs. They will not be able to participate in any proceedings, or do anything within the Assembly, unless and until they have taken the new pledge. When they have taken the new pledge, however, what sanctions will there be if they fail to honour it, and who will decide?
Mrs Villiers
Naturally enough, any sanctions relating to the actions of MLAs are matters for the Assembly, rather than for the Chamber and the legislation proposed here today. I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her intervention.
Clause 9 provides that the Northern Ireland Finance Minister will have a duty to specify—
Lady Hermon
I am terribly sorry to intervene on the Secretary of State again, but if I may say so that was a rather flippant response and not at all characteristic—she is always so well briefed. Clause 8 actually states:
“Standing orders shall provide for the procedure for giving the undertaking.”
It does not say in clause 8 that Standing Orders will be passed in the Assembly on sanctions for MLAs who do not honour the new pledge, so it must be in this proposed legislation.
Mrs Villiers
I am very sorry. I did not mean for my answer to sound flippant or not serious. It remains the case that the Bill does not provide for sanctions and neither does the fresh start agreement. In terms of internal matters of discipline within the Assembly, that really is a matter for the Assembly itself to determine. What I can provide further clarification on is that an individual who refuses to give the undertaking will not be able to participate in Assembly proceedings, or receive any of the privileges of office or salary.
Clause 9 provides that the Northern Ireland Finance Minister will have a duty to specify to the Assembly the amount of Government funding available, as notified by the Secretary of State. The Minister will have to show, when delivering a draft budget, that the amount of Government funding required by that draft budget does not exceed the amount specified as being available.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
Before the Secretary of State moves on to that more detailed point, does she agree that the provisions outlined in the Bill should be extended here? Members who do not take their oath in this place receive privileges and benefits, and are not excluded. Maybe we should learn something from the situation in Northern Ireland and apply it to this place.
Mrs Villiers
I am very much aware of the concerns the hon. Gentleman and his party have on such matters. Issues relating to privileges and expenses are House business, and he and his colleagues are welcome to raise them at any time for the House to consider. In due course, we will look at Short money too.
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
Just to take a step back in relation to the cross-border task force, I understand a meeting was held in December 2015 to establish it. Can the Secretary of State clarify today how often the task force will meet or is it scheduled to meet?
Mrs Villiers
I think we need to distinguish between the ministerial meeting, which was a one-off, and the agency task force, which will meet regularly. I do not know that it has scheduled a timetable of meetings as yet, but I am sure that once it does I will be able to supply the hon. Gentleman with details. One would expect it to meet regularly to conduct its important work. The membership has been formulated, so it is already cracking on with its work.
Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Lab)
Does the Secretary of State agree that cross-border co-operation on a whole range of issues, not least organised crime, is made much easier by the fact that the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK are members of the European Union?
Mrs Villiers
I was wondering when that subject would come up. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that there are a whole range of reasons why the relationship between the UK and Ireland has improved massively in recent years.
I have outlined the main features of this short, but important, piece of proposed legislation on Northern Ireland.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
There is one area that is not in the Bill. Will the Secretary of State inform the House when the legacy Bill will come forward? Many people throughout Northern Ireland are grieving deeply and want to know when the proposals will come forward.
Mrs Villiers
The hon. Lady raises a very important issue, which I was about to come on to. Sadly, I am not able to give her a date for the presentation of that proposed legislation, but, as I will go into, I am determined to work as hard as I possibly can to build the consensus necessary to enable us to introduce it. I agree with her: it is very important that we press ahead.
I must put on record my gratitude for the co-operation of Her Majesty’s Opposition in agreeing to a somewhat faster than usual passage of the Bill through the House. This should enable measures relating to the pledge of office, the undertaking and the extension of the time available for ministerial appointments to be in place in time for the new Assembly when it meets in May. It will enable the new independent reporting commission to be established as soon as possible.
I am very conscious, returning to the point made by the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie), that some important elements of the Stormont House agreement are not, sadly, in the Bill we are discussing today.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
Given that the welfare reform legislation was microwaved through here and that this Bill will be fast-tracked, can the Secretary of State give an undertaking that the legacy Bill will not be fast-tracked and that her commitment to building consensus will extend to proper consideration for victims and the wider public interest, and not just be something cobbled up between parties?
Mrs Villiers
I need to reflect on that, but I definitely agree with the hon. Gentleman that the legacy Bill will be in a very different category from the other two pieces of legislation—the Bill today and the welfare legislation. In those circumstances, we should do everything possible to make sure that it has an ordinary timetable. If the hon. Gentleman will allow me, I will not give an absolute undertaking on that for today’s purposes, but if we get to the stage of being able to present that Bill to Parliament, it is highly likely that we will want to proceed with it on the basis of an ordinary timetable rather than an expedited one, given the sensitivity of the issues.
As I set out in my speech in Belfast on 11 February, the Government are and remain committed to establishing these legacy bodies. We have a manifesto commitment to do so. We will continue our efforts to build the consensus needed to allow us to present legislation to this House. We have made more progress than any of our predecessors in getting close to achieving an agreed way forward on the past. We are now closer than ever, I think, to resolving the main outstanding problems standing in the way of getting these new bodies set up and operating.
I shall continue to engage with the political parties in Northern Ireland, with victims and survivors and with those who represent them, and I am particularly grateful for the input and work of the Commission for Victims and Survivors in trying to facilitate this process and for working hard to try, with me, to build consensus for the new bodies.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
Does the Secretary of State agree that one element of the legacy issue that is paramount in the minds of many survivors of the troubles is that under no account and under no circumstances must Northern Ireland be seen to go forward on the basis of treating the perpetrators of violence in the same way as those who were innocent victims of that very violence?
Mrs Villiers
I entirely agree. We on the Government side would never accept a rewriting of history. I think we should always recall the dedication of, and sacrifices made by, both the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the armed services in Northern Ireland. We should salute that sacrifice, and I am absolutely convinced that in the vast majority of cases, the members of the security forces performed their duties with the utmost integrity and professionalism.
I want to pay tribute, too, to the dignity and determination with which victims and survivors approach the legacy matters under discussion. I have been deeply moved on many occasions when I have met victims and survivors to hear of their experiences and their tragedies. I have welcomed the chance to meet many of them over my years as Secretary of State. They have different and divergent views on a number of issues, but almost all are agreed that the current mechanisms for tackling legacy cases are not working as they should.
The legacy bodies proposed in the Stormont House agreement will not be perfect and, sadly, even when they are set up, they will not provide every answer to every question. Sadly, no set of solutions that we could devise here or in Stormont could ever achieve that, but I believe that those bodies would deliver significantly better outcomes for victims and survivors than the status quo. For that reason, we will continue to pursue them with diligence and dedication.
As a result of the Stormont House and fresh start agreements, I think politics in Northern Ireland is probably more stable now than it has been over the past three years. Economically, although there was undoubtedly some heart-breaking news from Bombardier last week, it is still the case that 46,000 more people are in work compared with 2010 and the unemployment register is down by more than 40% since its peak in 2013. The fresh start agreement also takes us closer to the point where we can complete the transfer of corporation tax powers to the Executive—a move that I believe can have a transformative effect on the economy there.
As we go forward there will continue to be difficulties and challenges. I need hardly remind the House that despite some success in suppressing their activities, the threat from dissident republicans is severe and the need for vigilance is constant. We are also, of course, approaching some very sensitive centenaries—commemorations that can have very different meanings for different parts of the community. Northern Ireland has, I think, entered 2016 more positively than for some time. For our part, the Government remain determined to deliver our manifesto commitment to help build a brighter, more secure future for Northern Ireland. The Bill is intended to help that process, and I commend it to the House.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
I welcome the Secretary of State to the debate, and I hope she stays in.
The Bill delivers some of the key aspects of the 17 November 2015 fresh start agreement and the 2014 Stormont House agreement. These agreements ended a financial and political impasse in Northern Ireland that threatened the survival of the devolved institutions and exposed us to the very real possibility of a return to direct rule, which would of course have been disastrous. The Bill is therefore very welcome.
As we address the substance of the Bill, it is crucial for us to stress the importance of economic development. As the Secretary of State acknowledged, the job losses announced at Bombardier last week were a terrible blow to advanced manufacturing in Northern Ireland and a personal tragedy for those who will lose their jobs and for their families. They will now, of course, have to seek employment elsewhere. Jobs in Northern Ireland, as across the UK, are crucial as the strength of the economy and opportunity help to deliver continued progress for everyone.
Of course Bombardier operates in an incredibly competitive global market and demand in that world market has not been as strong as we would have liked. However, the Government have a responsibility, so what are they doing to support those who remain at Bombardier? What are they doing to help ensure that those workers find a route back to employment as swiftly as possible? When the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the hon. Member for Wyre and Preston North (Mr Wallace), winds up the debate, will he say what support has been offered to the workforce and to the Northern Ireland Executive? What discussions will he and the Secretary of State have with the rest of the Government to encourage more direct foreign investment into Northern Ireland?
As we begin to discuss this Bill, let us remind ourselves that the previous 12 months have not been the easiest in Northern Ireland. The murders of Gerard Davison and Kevin McGuigan in the summer and the budgetary stalemate around the issue of welfare led to a political crisis that required all the skill and commitment of those involved to get an agreement to break the stalemate and allow progress to be made. I have said before and I want to put it on record again that all of those involved—the Secretary of State, all the parties in Northern Ireland, many of whom are represented here, and the Irish Government —deserve huge credit for achieving the fresh start agreement. Without that agreement, there was the real risk of the collapse of devolution or indeed the return to direct rule, either of which would have been unthinkable.
I know there was huge disappointment, as well, that no agreement could be reached on how to deal with the past. I and many others have raised this issue here over the last few weeks and months. As I said, however, I know that huge progress was made and I am glad that the Secretary of State has reiterated that now is not the time to give up, but to build on the progress that has been made while recognising the challenges and difficulties that remain.
The publication of the draft treaty on the Independent Commission on Information Retrieval was, I think, welcome—to show not only the direction of travel, but how much progress was made in the talks. Victims must be at the heart of any future agreement, as of any agreement—that is clear to us all. The recent allegations with respect to various atrocities of the past demonstrate more than ever the need for a process to be agreed. Victims must not feel that they are locked out of any progress, which is why I urge the Secretary of State to be as transparent as possible, even where difficulty remains, and to continue to seek agreement.
Agreement has not been reached on how to deal with the past so it could not be included in the Bill, but I say to the Secretary of State that we need to take an urgent look at the resources available to the Police Service of Northern Ireland and indeed the Coroners Service for Northern Ireland to support investigations and to speed up the inquests that they continue to be required to do. More and more delay for victims is unacceptable.
Conor McGinn
Does my hon. Friend agree—as I do—with the First Minister of Northern Ireland, who has said that we need to get real when it comes to the funding of investigations of legacy cases? The PSNI operates within stringent budget constraints. It has to prioritise front-line policing, but it is being asked to do more and more. While the current impasse exists, should it not receive funds from this place rather than having to use some of its own resources to deal with the legacy of the past?
Vernon Coaker
I very much agree with my hon. Friend, and with the First Minister and others in Northern Ireland who have pointed out that, although agreement has not been reached on how to deal with the legacy issues, the PSNI, the Coroners Service for Northern Ireland and others are still required to deal with the consequences of those issues. Given that the Secretary of State has put aside money pending any agreement, surely it would be acceptable to give at least some of it to those bodies in order to reflect the continuing work that they must do in trying to investigate and resolve some of the difficulties. I think that the First Minister has made a perfectly reasonable request, and, although I know that the Secretary of State will not be able to respond to it now, I hope that she and the Minister—and, indeed, the Government as a whole—will consider it.
Mrs Villiers
May I intervene briefly to offer some assistance? The fresh start agreement makes it clear that the £150 million package to support the legacy work is linked to the establishment of the new bodies. However, we are listening carefully to representations, particularly those relating to inquests. If a credible reform package for inquests is put together, we will of course take very seriously any request for funds to support it.
Vernon Coaker
That is a helpful response. I think that everyone in the House—and, indeed, in Northern Ireland—will have heard what the Secretary of State has said, which implies that she is open to making money available both to the PSNI and to the Coroners Service. I think that that is what victims would expect. They know that it is difficult to reach an agreement on how to deal with the past—and, although the institutions, or the proposed institutions, are there, agreement has not been reached—but, at the same time, work has to be done. Given that the money is there, we would support the Secretary of State if she—or, for instance, the Treasury—estimated at any point that at least some of the money could be released to enable that work to be done as soon as possible, because I think that people in Northern Ireland would expect it to be done as soon as possible. The First Minister would have been pleased to hear what the Secretary of State has said.
The House has been in the habit of dealing with Northern Ireland legislation in one day, but we believe that that should happen only when the need is truly urgent. We supported an emergency procedure with respect to welfare reform, and I promised the Secretary of State when I resumed my current role that we would maintain a bipartisan approach based on the principle of consent. I hope that our actions have demonstrated that commitment, but I want to make it clear that in this instance we have agreed to an expedited procedure rather than an emergency process. This procedure allows us more time to consider the Bill, while still making it possible for us to secure Royal Assent before the approaching Northern Ireland elections. I assume that any necessary legislative consent motion will be forthcoming in order to ensure that measures relating to the pledge of office, the MLA undertaking, and extension of the time available for ministerial appointments are in place in time for the Assembly's return. I am told that the Northern Ireland parties themselves are keen for that to happen.
The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) made a fair and reasonable point about discussion of the legacy issues in due course. I think that anyone in Northern Ireland would expect discussion of those significant and important issues to take place by means of due process in the House, and not to be speeded up.
Lady Hermon
Will Her Majesty’s Opposition be tabling amendments to clause 8 to make it absolutely clear that a sanction will be applied to MLAs who make the pledge and take their seats, but then do not abide by the pledge that they have made? There is a code of ministerial responsibility for members of the Executive, and there are sanctions, but there are no sanctions in the Bill, and that is an obvious omission.
Vernon Coaker
I will say something about pledges later in my speech, but, whether we table amendments or not, I think that the hon. Lady is right to ask for clarification. I shall be quoting one of the pledges which contains a qualification, and I shall be asking what that means. Even if we accept that this is Stormont business, I think it is right for such questions to be asked in the House of Commons.
The Bill will establish an independent reporting commission to monitor progress towards ending paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland. That is a key aspect of it. Paramilitary activity is totally unacceptable and has no place in Northern Ireland, but we shall have to consider in Committee what progress has already been made, and why this initiative will work when others have not. How will progress be judged, and what will happen if it stalls?
The issue of disclosure will also have to be explored in Committee. It is bound to arise, because the Bill requires the Secretary of State to provide guidance on how national security and individuals are to be protected. We shall need an explanation in order to ensure that the problems that prevented an agreement on how to deal with the past do not happen again and prevent the Commission from working effectively—or, indeed, from working at all.
The Bill modifies the pledge of office to be taken by Northern Ireland Ministers, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon). The revised pledge will include fresh obligations to work together on a shared objective of ridding society of all forms of paramilitary groups and activity, and the Bill introduces a parallel undertaking for Members of the Assembly, who must commit themselves to demonstrating a peaceful pursuit of change and progress. That is to be welcomed. However, the revised pledge includes seven newly agreed commitments, one of which is
“to accept no authority direction, or control on my political activities other than my democratic mandate alongside my own personal and party judgement”.
I think that, in Committee, Members may want to hear a full explanation of the qualification in that pledge.
The Bill extends the period allowed for the appointment of Northern Ireland Ministers, once the Assembly is elected, from seven to 14 days, which we hope will allow more time for a programme of government to be agreed. It also provides for the promotion of fiscal transparency and support for the Executive’s delivery of a stable and sustainable budget. It must be made clear what block grant the UK Government will provide, and how spending above that will be funded. I look forward to some interesting discussion of that in Committee.
Ian Paisley
Given the principle that the hon. Gentleman has accepted this evening, does he also accept the principle that if Members of the House of Commons do not take the oath, all the privileges that they gain here should be removed from them?
Vernon Coaker
As the Secretary of State has said, that is House business, but we expect all Members of this House to commit themselves to the pursuit of democracy and the making of decisions by democratic means.
Ian Paisley
If the hon. Gentleman accepts that principle, will he—through the usual channels, and with the support of the Opposition and the Government—table a motion in order to resolve, finally, the anomaly that allows Irish Republican Sinn Féin Members to benefit from privileges in the House without taking the oath?
Vernon Coaker
As I have said, that is House business and I therefore cannot commit myself, but the hon. Gentleman has heard what I have said. We expect all Members of this House to commit themselves to democracy and the democratic process, and I think that that is what all of us have done.
I was talking about the budget, the promotion of fiscal transparency, and support for the Executive’s delivery of a stable and sustainable budget. This is another area that will need to be examined in Committee.
Northern Ireland is not out of conflict; it is coming out of conflict. Huge progress has been made, but challenges remain. The cloud of paramilitary activity still hangs over too many communities and impacts on too many people. This activity, whether republican or loyalist, never had a place in society, and it certainly has no place now.
The major elements of this Bill represent another step towards the principle that must be at the heart of any democracy: that the rule of law is paramount in every community—law enforced by the police and subject to an independent judiciary. The success of this Bill, the new pledges and the independent commission will be judged on how far they bring that goal about.
Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)
I just want to make a fairly brief intervention in this debate. Before I do so, Mr Deputy Speaker, I wonder whether you will allow me a few seconds to refer and pay tribute to my constituency assistant who died very suddenly a few days ago. His name was Mark Calway, and he worked for me for 14 years and took a particular interest in matters Northern Ireland—and indeed in matters the Republic of Ireland—helping me quite a bit with my work on the Select Committee and as co-chairman of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. His death is a stunning shock, and my heart goes out to his parents, Brian and Maureen. I do hope it is in order for me to pay the greatest tribute to him possible today. All hon. Members know how much we depend on our staff, and when they are personal friends as well, such a loss, at the age of 49, is terrible. Thank you very much indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker.
May I pay tribute to the Secretary of State for the work she has done in getting us to this point? I know—or I think I know—how difficult things were back in September when it looked as though the institutions in Northern Ireland might collapse. I know how much work she put in—or I am guessing I know that. Her dedication was total. She was absolutely determined that the institutions would not collapse and that we would in fact find some degree of agreement and a solution that would enable us to move forward. The fact that we are here today demonstrates that she was successful in that, so I really do want to pay tribute to her—and her team—for the very hard work and extraordinarily long hours put into this.
Before I was Select Committee Chairman, I served as shadow Minister for about five years. During some of that time we dealt with an awful lot of legislation—statutory instruments—in Committee upstairs, taking major decisions on behalf of the Province and the people in Northern Ireland. On many of those occasions, at the beginning of my speeches I said how wrong and inappropriate it was to govern the Province in that way, yet we really did face the prospect of going back to the previous situation, and that worried and frightened me. It came about as a result of a couple of tragic murders in Northern Ireland and the linkage between them and people in the Assembly who were allegedly sympathetic to that kind of activity. I am very pleased that this Bill makes it clear that there is no place, either in this place or the Assembly in Northern Ireland, for people who hold those beliefs.
Many years ago we heard the famous and chilling statement that some people would proceed with the Armalite in one hand and the ballot box in the other. Those days are long gone, and anybody who tries to practise that or carry out politics in that way should be in prison, deprived of their liberty. There is no place in the Northern Ireland Assembly for that kind of people. We would not want to work on Committees in this House or anywhere else with people who by day are in the debating Chamber and at night are on the streets causing trouble and wreaking havoc. We would not accept it in this place, and it should not be accepted in Northern Ireland, so I am very pleased that the Bill paves the way for removing that kind of behaviour.
Ian Paisley
I appreciate the point the hon. Gentleman is making. Sometimes we do have to stop and pinch ourselves and recognise how far Northern Ireland has come in recent years. The point he is making about Northern Ireland politicians taking decisions about the needs of the people of Northern Ireland is emphasised today, as there have been something like 26 amendments on the Floor of the Northern Ireland Parliament today, being voted and consulted on and considered by Northern Ireland’s elected representatives. That shows that instead of decisions being taken in Committee Rooms here, they are being taken in Northern Ireland by the elected representatives on the Floor of the Assembly, and they are very prosperous and good decisions.
Mr Robertson
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point, which emphasises far more strongly than I was able to the importance of the Assembly’s functioning. When we sat in Committee taking big decisions, the great problem was that by the nature of the arithmetic of this House, there were very few people on the Committee from Northern Ireland. The decisions were taken by people like me and many others from English constituencies, with very few representatives from Northern Ireland, so the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to make that point.
The most urgent priority was dealing with the paramilitary aspect, but there were other issues, which are dealt with in the Bill. One was the agreeing of the budgets. I have mentioned before what happens when there is power-sharing rather than the straight democratic system that we have in this House. We all know why we have that power-sharing, and it has brought people together, but there may be times when there has to be compromise in the way the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive do business. There may be times when politicians in the Assembly and the Executive take their stances, make their points and make their objections, but at the end of the day there has to be agreement; if not, and if there is an overuse of the petitions of concern—I accept that both sides have used them to excess—it is not going to be very helpful. If we cannot get agreement on important issues such as the budget, we face the rather dark prospect of the institutions collapsing, as we almost saw, and power being brought back to this House. That is not something I want to see.
Mr Gregory Campbell
The hon. Gentleman refers to issues on which consensus and agreement were reached. Does he agree that the issue of corporation tax was one on which consensus was reached eventually, and that people were and are looking forward to the prospect of possibly tens of thousands of jobs being created in Northern Ireland? How does he feel about the fact that the delay in reaching that consensus was principally down to Northern Ireland’s and the UK’s membership of the EU? It seemed to delay it for many years.
Mr Robertson
The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point and I would make two points in response. When the Select Committee looked at the issue—it was the first issue we looked at under my chairmanship back in 2010—it was not unanimous in its support for devolving responsibilities for corporation tax, but all the parties in general were in favour of it. Corporation tax was one of the few issues that every party in Northern Ireland agreed with the policy on, which was a real positive.
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, I am afraid. We could have done something about it then. The corporation tax rate for Northern Ireland could have been changed in 2010, or long before that, had it not been for our membership of the EU. I am not sure how far Mr Deputy Speaker will allow me to pursue that argument, but even if we wanted to reduce VAT on tourism in Northern Ireland, it would not be legal under EU rules. There are a number of ways of looking at membership of the EU. We spent two and a half hours on it earlier, and I do not suppose we will be allowed to spend too much longer on it now, but the point the hon. Gentleman makes is absolutely right.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. May I just reassure the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson): there is always Thursday for it?
Mr Robertson
Indeed there is, Mr Deputy Speaker.
I was saying that I accept that petitions of concern have been used to excess by both sides and had not been very helpful in coming to agreements on important issues. This is not contained in the legislation, but I know that the fresh start agreement did address that point and did request in a very strong way, as it were, that that facility should not be abused for the reasons we have given.
I do not wish to detain the House any longer, but this small but important Bill moves us in the right direction. I compliment and congratulate the Secretary of State on introducing it and—as I said earlier—on the enormous amount of hard work she has put in.
Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)
I shall be brief to allow time for other Members to make substantive contributions to the debate, and to spare Members from having to listen to my voice for too much longer.
There were, and are, people who would rather see this whole process fail than succeed. They have their reasons, and there is some form of logic that underpins that position. It is, however, the right of a people to govern themselves, to take decisions close to home, and to protect their peace. In Northern Ireland, that peace was fashioned relatively recently and at great expense, and it is harried by a continual undercurrent from disaffected minorities. Political leaders on all sides of the debate in Northern Ireland are thirled to a peaceful and democratic political debate, but they have a legacy to address that may cause them some long and uncomfortable times in the years ahead. They must, however, find a way to put the history of their communities in context when looking to the future of those communities. The scars of yesterday cannot be allowed to become open wounds again, and it seems that that is the hardest task they face, no matter what happens in this place.
The land has paid a heavy price of being what it is and where it is, and communities that belong to the land have paid a heavy price for ideology and intransigence over the years. This Chamber has seen many debates, questions and angry exchanges, which at times seemed to pay little or no attention to the lives that were being affected, and often lost.
The Bill is a step forward, providing that it is accepted by Stormont. There is no magic wand to wave, but a collective movement will allow politicians at Stormont more freedom to plot the direction of travel. It is they who must address the legacy issues, and they must do so in Belfast, rather than London. Stormont should decide on the domestic frameworks to serve the people. They will operate under some severe financial restrictions, but they will at least have control over some of the levers of taxation that they will need, in particular—others have already noted this—the devolution of corporation tax. The devolved Administration should be able to decide tax rates and incentives for companies as well as individuals, and I see no reason why the other devolved Administrations around these islands should not have the same power.
Gaps have opened between the points of the Stormont House agreement, the fresh start agreement, and the Bill, but I welcome the forward momentum that the Bill helps to keep going. I congratulate the Whitehall team that has brought it this far—I assume that these were not the easiest days. Credit should also go to those in this Chamber who have played a positive and forward-looking role in this process: the Secretary of State, the shadow Secretary of State, and those Members who represent constituencies in Northern Ireland.
While I acknowledge the efforts of Ministers and civil servants on this side of the Irish sea, we should also acknowledge those of their counterparts in Belfast and Dublin. The efforts of successive Irish Governments throughout the peace process, and the development of devolution, have been vital in helping deliver the possibility of a peaceful and prosperous future, and it is particularly apt to note that in this year of remembrance for the Irish nation.
The people of Northern Ireland suffered the effects of the troubles, and they continue to suffer them now in the form of higher unemployment and a legacy of arrested community development—I associate myself very much with comments made by the shadow Secretary of State about economic development. Nothing will change that overnight, but we are at least now looking in the right direction, and the SNP supports the Bill.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
I welcome the debate on this Bill, and the DUP supports the Bill as well as the proposal to fast-track it. I commend the Secretary of State for her speech to the House, which was the latest in a number of wise statements that she has made on Northern Ireland and wider issues in recent days. I commend her for all those statements.
As a general rule, we are keen to see the fullest possible parliamentary scrutiny of legislation that affects Northern Ireland, and in the past a great deal of such legislation has been passed on an emergency basis. Although often that was unavoidable and understandable, we all accept—not least for the reasons outlined by the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson)—that that was not the best way to operate. Often, such emergency legislation was the result of some breakdown or failure of the political process in Northern Ireland, and I am glad that the Bill does not fall into that category.
This Bill has been drafted as a result of political agreement, and not political disagreement or crisis. It is based on a political agreement from last November, and it has involved considerable consultation and work in the Northern Ireland Assembly and in the Northern Ireland Executive. The Bill is only part of the implementation process of the Stormont agreement. A long list of issues were agreed, and they are all being progressed and implemented either in the Assembly, through this House, or directly administratively by the Executive and other agencies, as set out by the Secretary of State. I welcome that progress. The Executive in Northern Ireland has already agreed that a legislative consent motion should be put before the Assembly for clauses that deal with devolved matters, and I understand that that motion will come before the Assembly in mid-March.
I am confident that despite the need to fast-track the Bill, we will have the opportunity for adequate consideration. It is important that a number of measures introduced by the Bill are in place so that when Assembly elections are held and the results come in, everything is in place for the new Assembly and Executive to operate under the new legislation, without any hiccup, delay, or question mark about that. In particular, it is essential that the House deals with the agreement of a programme for government, extending the period to appoint Ministers, new paragraphs for the pledge of office, and an undertaking for Members of the Legislative Assembly, before the Assembly is dissolved at the end of March.
Lady Hermon
In the light of the recent controversy surrounding the scrutiny of MLAs’ expenses, and—unfortunately—the damage that that does to public confidence in the operation of the Northern Ireland Assembly, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the Bill would be an appropriate vehicle with which to introduce in Northern Ireland an institution comparable to the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, so as to rebuild public confidence in the expenses vetting procedure in Northern Ireland?
Mr Dodds
IPSA is a whole other area of debate, and I am sure it will evoke much argument and discussion in this House. The DUP suggested the introduction of an IPSA-style regime some time ago, but we could not get agreement on that. The First Minister of Northern Ireland made a speech on Friday night, outlining again the importance of transparency and of that matter being dealt with and taken forward in precisely that way. Whether the Bill is the right vehicle for that remains to be seen, because it would require agreement and consultation within Northern Ireland. That could—and indeed should—happen, and I encourage parties to do that. It is important to maintain confidence in the integrity of the Assembly. We in this House know what it is to have gone through that kind of controversy, and we want to ensure that things are progressed properly, openly, and with the utmost transparency.
However, when IPSA reported on expenses in Northern Ireland, it found a pretty satisfactory situation overall—it is not as if the entire situation was unsatisfactory. We must ensure that there is confidence, and I and the DUP support whatever steps are needed to introduce an open and transparent system in which such matters are not decided or administered by Members; I hope others will agree.
The Bill, as the Secretary of State has said, seeks to implement aspects of the fresh start agreement, which represents a new beginning for politics in Northern Ireland. I totally agree with what she said about the situation in Northern Ireland. It is more positive now. There is a more positive view of the Assembly and politics, because people have seen that agreement can be made. It was difficult, but things can get done when there is agreement and we can move forward. We must continue to build on that.
It was not, of course, possible to resolve every issue, especially in relation to the past. We have discussed that and will discuss it in much greater detail. Of course, it is not in the Bill—we should be discussing what is in the Bill—but I want to state again that, as far as our party is concerned, we are quite happy for the details of how far we got on all that to be published so that the victims, their families and all the people affected can see openly how much work is being done, how much progress has been made, where the gaps are and what needs to be done to bring the process to a conclusion.
The two issues that threatened imminent destruction of devolution at that time—paramilitary violence and welfare reform—have been addressed, agreed on and dealt with and are subject to provisions in the Bill. The resolution of the welfare reform issue was extremely important; the importance of resolving it cannot be underestimated. It was the single most important issue, from a financial perspective, to be resolved to allow the Assembly to function. I deeply regret that even after the fresh start agreement there were still Members of this House and of the Assembly who opposed the implementation of the agreement. They did not seem to recognise that without a budget that measures up and is sustainable, one cannot continue with devolution.
I am glad that there are politicians in Northern Ireland who are prepared to face up to reality, grapple with difficult problems and sit down to reach sensible outcomes through dialogue and agreement. I am pleased that this House was able to take forward the welfare reforms and the Northern Ireland Assembly was able to agree that the mitigations and some of the enhancements to the welfare system will be allowed to proceed as well. Of course, that is very important. We on these Benches would not have designed this welfare system for Northern Ireland, but it recognises the constraints and parameters within which we must operate financially while going a fair distance to meet some of the problems and issues raised by our constituents.
I am pleased that all the major targets under the fresh start agreement and the implementation plan are being met and that deadlines are being kept. Unlike with the Stormont House agreement of 2014, I believe that there is every reason to expect that every aspect will be implemented in full. On the welfare reform agreement, it is important to note that Eileen Evason’s group made recommendations that came in under budget and will be implemented by the Assembly and the Executive. That allows more money to be spent in other areas by the Executive, who have now passed a budget for next year ahead of time which has been dealt with by the Assembly as it should have been.
On the issue of paramilitary violence, the panel on paramilitary disbandment has been set up and has begun its work. The trilateral meeting to tackle paramilitarism, criminality and organised crime met before Christmas. The Executive are seized of the importance of making progress on this issue, because, at the end of the day, as we made very clear when the crisis blew up, we are not prepared to sweep these matters under the carpet. They must be faced up to by everyone who wants to see Northern Ireland move forward. There must be not only a commitment in words to democracy and the rule of law but an implementation of that in practice. That is why we on these Benches, and back in the Assembly, as elected representatives of the people, will not allow these matters simply to be ignored or to be used as a political football for a temporary political point-scoring exercise before being forgotten about. We are serious about these issues and we want them to be addressed, and to be addressed properly.
I am also glad that the Executive has agreed the reduction in the corporation tax rate to commence from April 2018. The reduction to 12.5% is an extremely important addition to the range of attractions that Invest Northern Ireland will be able to go out and promote across the world to possible investors and those who are interested in coming to Northern Ireland. I welcome that and express our gratitude to the Government for their support on this matter. Many parties and people who will no doubt claim credit now gave up on corporation tax. Our party never gave up on it. Some people said that the possibility was over and done with and would never happen—that is the reality—but we did not give up.
I pay tribute to the former First Minister of Northern Ireland, Peter Robinson, who made corporation tax a very important issue. He recognised the value of having the measure in place. Indeed, I pay tribute to him for the work he did, along with the Secretary of State and other parties, to make this fresh start agreement happen. His commitment to ensuring stability in devolution cannot be underestimated. He deserves an enormous amount of credit for the agreement. The corporation tax provision, in particular, was something that he felt very strongly about and that our party has always believed in. I am glad that it is now proceeding. When the First Minister goes to New York and Washington and to the west coast in March, along with the Deputy First Minister and others, the strength of her argument about coming to invest in Northern Ireland will have been greatly increased as a result of this agreement. This tax reduction is another reason why there should be investment in Northern Ireland.
The legislation to reduce the number of MLAs and reorganise and reduce the number of Government Departments is also nearing completion. As we heard, tomorrow there will be further debate on that. The Assembly has passed a resolution to allow an official opposition to be created and that work has been taken forward by the Assembly authorities. Nominations have been sought from the parties and applications sought from the public for the flags commission, and we expect that to be established by the end of March. There has also been progress made on the fiscal council and the compact civic advisory panel.
All in all, progress on the fresh start agreement has been very positive and has heralded a better atmosphere at Stormont, where things are getting done. The Bill is a further positive step in implementing what has been agreed. If I might say so in passing, it is an interesting commentary on the media that when there is a hold-up in the Assembly, a massive issue of confrontation on political issues, a stand-off or when things are not getting done, there is a mass of attention and commentary. We do not hear the same reporting or the same level of discussion in the media, on the radio and on television when things are getting done, day by day and week by week. Legislation has been passed and progress is being made, but it is as if nothing is happening at all. There is hardly any reporting at all—I do not hear about any of it. It is interesting how sometimes good news, positive developments and progress are massively under-reported in Northern Ireland, whereas anything negative or bad is given massive prominence.
As other Members have said, it is worth putting on record the distance that Northern Ireland has come and the progress that has been made. For all the backward steps and ups and downs, we have made enormous progress. The political institutions that came back after the St Andrews agreement have provided a much more stable environment and I believe that that needs to be celebrated.
Ian Paisley
The story that will appear in tomorrow’s newspaper—we might as well settle up for them—will be a photograph of the number of Members in the Chamber now compared with a photograph of the number of Members in the Chamber three hours ago, when the Prime Minister was speaking. It is such a crass story, but they run it week in, week out, telling people to look at the lack of interest in this place when Northern Ireland is being discussed compared with when a European issue or a financial issue is being discussed. We might as well ask the press to go ahead and publish that anyway.
Mr Dodds
On such issues, I always think that quality, not quantity, is what matters. I apply that to all Members present in the House; every Member who is here for this debate is of the highest quality. I welcome those who are here, particularly Members from constituencies outside Northern Ireland, including those who have served on the Select Committee and taken an interest in Northern Ireland matters. Their support and interest in Northern Ireland is greatly welcomed, and we value it very much indeed. I have already commented on some issues about press and media reporting, and my hon. Friend will understand if I do not take that too much further now.
We could go into detail on the independent reporting commission and other matters, but this is a Second Reading debate and so is about the generality of the Bill. We will have more opportunities to discuss it, and I welcome the fact that the Committee stage will be taken on the Floor of the House. I welcome the good co-operation that there has been between the Government, Opposition Front Benchers and the Northern Ireland parties on how this Bill should proceed. It has been an excellent example of how parliamentary scrutiny should happen. As I say, we understand why this Bill needs to be fast-tracked. It is not being done out of any sense of crisis; it is being done out of a sense of wanting to make sure that progress continues to be made and that the provisions are in place before the Assembly elections. We wish the Bill well, and we thank those who have been responsible for the agreement on introducing it and those who have worked so hard to bring this Second Reading debate to fruition.
Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP)
I want to speak briefly about a number of faults or flaws in the Bill, which we certainly hope to address during its next stage.
Tackling paramilitary activity is paramount, and paramilitary activity continues to blight our society in Northern Ireland, not least in and around my constituency, where Gerard Davison and Kevin McGuigan were both ruthlessly gunned down in the past 12 months. Such events may not, thankfully, be as common as they once were, but they still happen on our streets. Those two murders are stark reminders of the paramilitary activity that persists nearly two decades after the Good Friday agreement was signed.
Throughout the talks that led to the Bill, we were clear that a whole-community approach is imperative if we are to root out paramilitary activity once and for all. Parties cannot and must not be seen to indulge in any class of paramilitary activity, in any circumstances, at any time. That should not be limited to certain groups or individuals, or to activity in certain constituencies; there should be no exclusions or opt-outs. It requires unequivocal and universal condemnation, and a united front, from all democratic parties and from all in civic society. Any vestige of paramilitary behaviour or structures is an affront to democracy, not just in Northern Ireland but anywhere else where it might exist, and should not be accepted. Furthermore, such vestiges continue to blight, obstruct and undermine every opportunity for economic recovery, which is desperately needed in Northern Ireland in the light of some of the news of the past couple of weeks.
The pledge proposed in the Bill, to be undertaken by Ministers and Members of the Legislative Assembly, is a step in the right direction, but the content of the pledge requires further scrutiny, particularly on the transition away from paramilitary activity. We in the Social Democratic and Labour party realise that ridding our society of paramilitary activity will by no means be an overnight process, but support in the transition has been allowed to become, or be seen as, a degree of tolerance of some element of paramilitary activity. That cannot be allowed any further.
The big absence in the Bill is, of course, any reference to the legacies of the past and, particularly, to issues pertaining to legacy. We have made our views clear: victims, survivors and their needs must be paramount, and vague claims about national security cannot and must not be used to prevent disclosure and block every effort to uncover truth and to establish accountability and transparency. There is no degree of honesty or integrity in that.
Northern Ireland society cannot, as some would have it, just move on and forget about the past, abandoning the hurt and the needs of victims and survivors. The wounds of the past must be healed, and the victims and survivors across our society have waited far too long. For many of them, this Bill—or another, if there is one coming, which we would like to see sooner rather than later—is the last real chance for any sort of meaningful truth or genuine justice. It is perfectly understandable that many of those people feel enormously let down by the shortfalls of not only this Bill but previous Bills. Dealing with the past and its legacy has been far too much of a piecemeal exercise. We will work to amend the Bill at the next stage, and we will work on any other Bill that may emerge. We will seek amendments on the needs of victims and survivors, and on the needs of communities that have been blighted and tortured by paramilitary activity.
We would also welcome some reference in the Bill to other issues that have been left out. We would like it to make much greater progress on dealing with flags and parading. Those things lead to disturbance and need to be addressed, as does dealing with the past and its legacy.
The Secretary of State and the shadow Secretary of State referred to the economy. During the Stormont House talks we discussed prosperity and the need for an overall comprehensive economic recovery strategy, or a prosperity strategy, but somehow that has been forgotten about. Corporation tax has been mentioned. The SDLP was talking about that 20 years ago and has fully supported this approach at all times in between, but corporation tax will not do everything—it is not a magic bullet, dare I say? There is a desperate need for third-level education, training, apprenticeships and skills development, to go along with propping up and developing a newer and better economy. I say to the Secretary of State that I would have been keen to have some reference in the Bill to the economy and creating a prosperity process. I know that there are issues she wishes to deal with urgently, but we need to address a dire economic situation, and attention has been drawn to that by the Bombardier situation.
Mrs Villiers
I want to provide reassurance that, like the Northern Ireland Executive, the UK Government are absolutely committed to enhancing and increasing prosperity in Northern Ireland. Our main vehicle for the work we do together is the economic pact, so the fact that the issue was not expressly referred to in the fresh start agreement does not mean the two Administrations are not working closely to bring that about.
Dr McDonnell
I thank the Secretary of State for that, and I am reassured, but I look forward to further stages of the Bill and the opportunity to flesh it out, amend it and make additions, where appropriate, to ensure that it is as comprehensive as possible and does all that we would expect it to do.
Danny Kinahan (South Antrim) (UUP)
May I start by not only giving our sympathy to the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) for losing his assistant, but sending our huge thanks to him and the many others who have helped us in Northern Ireland, be it through the British-Irish Parliamentary Association, the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee or in other ways? A mass of people are always trying to help us get somewhere.
I welcome the Bill, although I still have doubts about various parts of it. We felt when we saw it that it was a bit of a sticking plaster, rather than a chance to have a rebirth of Stormont. I welcome the many changes that are being made, but we wait to see whether they really get there. Today, I wish to touch on a few changes that we want to see to the Bill and on some of our concerns.
When the independent reporting commission is appointed, we would like to see more people involved than just the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. Too much of what happens in Northern Ireland tends to be done by the two main parties in the Executive. We must find a different way. We could go through the Northern Ireland Judicial Appointments Commission. Whatever way we choose, we should move away from just involving the two main parties.
I welcome the fact that the Secretary of State will put the guidance in place. It is certainly necessary to have somebody outside of ourselves to help move us along, although I realise that such a task is a poisoned chalice at times and may well require the wisdom of Solomon. None the less, we do need guidance. I know that it falls on our shoulders most of the time, but, as I have long been saying, we should not leave it all to the devolved Assembly. We must have Westminster working with Stormont. We should all pull together and work together instead of things being left to Stormont when everything gets stuck.
I am really happy to see in the Bill the change from seven to 14 days to try to get a programme for government in place. We must remember that it was my hon. Friend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Tom Elliott) who put that idea forward when he was leader of our party. He wanted a longer period of time to be available to get Ministers chosen, but in line with an overall programme for government, which I hope will be achieved within 14 days. If there is any doubt in that regard, will the Secretary of State look at how we can get something in place to ensure that it happens? We want not Ministers working in silos but a joint programme for government well into the future.
I very much welcome everything in the Bill to do with trying to remove paramilitaries from Northern Ireland. The Ulster Unionist party was very much behind raising that matter to the top of the agenda during the talks. I would like the Secretary of State and the Minister to make it clear exactly what is meant by “paramilitary”. As we take the Bill forward, I am sure that that is where we will find many of our difficulties. There are many grey areas that need to be clarified. For example, will someone who knocks on doors asking for funding to help pay for the bonfires be called a paramilitary? Will someone who raises the Union flag be deemed a paramilitary? Over many years, the Union flag, which should be the flag of all of us and not offensive to anyone, has been turned by some members of the community into a sectarian flag, which it should not be. Will someone who puts up that flag be treated as a paramilitary? We need clarity, and we need to talk our way through this. One story from my patch is that members of the Boys Brigade were going to take their standards into the local church. They were prevented from taking in the Union flag by one party, which said that such action was sectarian. We need to stop that happening.
There are other matters that need clarifying. When I started off in the council, I was lucky to go to France with a group that would have been known as one of the bonfire groups from Antrim. In those days, it cost us £120,000 to clear up after the bonfires. We had 11 different community groups—others would have given them stronger titles than that—that did not talk to each other. Going away together allowed us to get everyone to work together to find ways forward and find the commonalities that existed. In time, we reduced the number of bonfires and improved most of them—not all. The next time we had the bonfires, it cost only £40,000 to clear up. We must be absolutely clear—will such groups be deemed paramilitaries? If Members of the Legislative Assembly and others talk to such groups, will they be seen to be dealing with paramilitaries when they take the oath? We need clarity on the whole issue.
As the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) said, we need an organisation with teeth to allow us to ensure that MLAs, Ministers and others are abiding by their oaths. It is essential that we find a way of enforcing that in the future, but we must all do it together. I agree with what has been said about IPSA. We have discussed whether we should try to get IPSA into the Bill, because it is essential that we get something that works much better in Northern Ireland. Most people in Northern Ireland do not think that expenses are under control. They do not think that anyone accepts any responsibility when they have done something wrong. There is such a whiff of corruption, or of things not being right, that we must have an organisation with some sort of teeth, and IPSA seems to carry out such duties extremely well, so let us try to bring it in.
It is great to hear that there are moves for an Opposition in Northern Ireland, but we need to put one or two things into the Bill to allow us to improve how that operates —whether it is on the finance or how Committees are manned—so that we really have a proper Opposition. We must be careful about how we deal with that, but we need to work together.
I long to see things happening when it comes to legacy. I know that we all had differences, and the issues need to be dealt with quickly, but not so fast that we do not all get the chance to talk and have our say. It is vital that Northern Ireland finds a way forward that moves us away from all the legacy issues, so that we can begin to thrive and build our future together.
We have had much mention of corporation tax, but it is not the silver bullet. We must do a whole mass of other things together. As a party, we wanted the devolution of corporation tax years ago, but there were differences between the parties on how it would work, which really slowed things up. Let us get everything in place—better infrastructure, air passenger duty and rates changes—and let us work on all those issues together. I see the Bill as a start to the improvements in Northern Ireland.
Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)
I pay tribute to the Secretary of State and the Minister for all the work that they and their teams have done to bring forward this Bill. Having been involved in much of the negotiations in the past, I can say in all honesty—we should always give credit when it is due—that the Secretary of State has gone way up in my estimation for the clear stance that she has taken on issues both in the public domain and privately around the negotiating table. She has done so with great clarity and that is something to be welcomed from a Secretary of State. She has also been ably supported by the Minister.
I pay tribute to Mark Calway, who worked for my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson). I had the pleasure of meeting him on several occasions as he took an interest in Northern Ireland. I know that my hon. Friend and his team will feel his loss very deeply, and we extend our sympathy to him and to Mark’s family.
Tackling paramilitarism is an important element of this agreement, and it is long overdue. As a party, we have pressed time and again for the paramilitaries to leave the stage. At times I have heard their spokespersons in the media talk about their big contribution to the peace process, but they have delivered little by way of the necessary steps. For far too long, they have been begrudging about the action that the paramilitary organisations need to take. They have continued to straddle the fence between democracy and the rule of law on the one side, and continued involvement in criminality and at times, sadly, in murder on the other.
One reason for the political crisis in Northern Ireland last year was precisely to do with this continued involvement by members of paramilitary organisations in criminal activity and in carrying out murders. As the hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) reminded us, those murders took place in his constituency. We need to be absolutely clear that there is no room for ambiguity, for grey areas or for straddling the fence between the rule of the law and involvement in criminality and paramilitarism. The people of Northern Ireland deserve better, which is why it is vital that we continue to pursue this agenda, and the Stormont agreement marks a significant step in taking it forward.
Lady Hermon
The right hon. Gentleman condemns paramilitarism, whatever shape or form it takes—loyalist paramilitaries as well as republican paramilitaries. In that connection, will he put on record his thanks, and the thanks of many people, to the Police Service of Northern Ireland for completing yet another search for the remains of Lisa Dorrian, who disappeared 11 years ago, and was murdered by those with loyalist paramilitary connections? Her family have never had her returned for a Christian burial, and tragically her mother died broken-hearted earlier this year. I would be grateful if the right hon. Gentleman condemned equally loyalist and republican paramilitaries.
Mr Donaldson
The hon. Lady speaks of the individual, personal and family suffering of the victims of paramilitary violence. Let me make it clear that when, as a party, we refer to paramilitarism we mean paramilitarism across the political divide. I had the pleasure of taking the Secretary of State and the shadow Secretary of State to Lisburn to visit a community project in my constituency. We have worked hard with people who were previously involved in paramilitary activity to enable them to complete the transition to what is now purely community development work, and those communities have been transformed as a result. For example, the Old Warren in Lisburn in my constituency has been transformed as a result of the transition of people previously involved in loyalist paramilitarism to purely community development. I commend the Resurgam Trust in Lisburn and its leadership for what they have done to transform that community by enabling those people to make that transition. I assure the hon. Lady that that is precisely the kind of effort that needs to take place in Northern Ireland.
It was one of the tragedies of conflict, and our troubles in Northern Ireland, that families not only suffered the loss of a loved one but were not able to mourn properly, because their loved one’s remains had not been returned to them. The family of Lisa Dorrian are a case in point, and we hope and pray that one day they will at least have the dignity of being able to bury the remains of their loved one. I appeal to those who know where Lisa Dorrian’s remains are to give that information to the police. I appeal to them on the grounds of basic Christian principles: even those involved in such wrongdoing should see that it is the right thing for a family to be able to have some degree of closure and have their loved one’s remains returned to them.
The Bill makes provision for the establishment of the independent reporting commission, which we welcome. The commission will report annually on progress on ending continued paramilitary activity, and we hope that it will shine a spotlight on republican and loyalist paramilitary groups that continue to engage in criminal acts and acts of violence. That will apply in Northern Ireland, but one of the important provisions in the Bill is that it will also apply in Great Britain and the Republic of Ireland. In recent times, we have seen the effects of paramilitary gangster-type activity in Dublin, which is unacceptable, and we must all co-operate to ensure that such activity is brought to an end. I hope that the good people of the Republic of Ireland, who go to the polls shortly, will think long and hard about who they elect to their national Parliament and where they stand on questions such as the special criminal court and the need to bring to an end paramilitarism, gangsterism and criminality, wherever they develop and emerge.
We welcome changes to the pledge of office for Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive and, crucially, a new undertaking to be given by all Members elected to the Assembly after May that will commit them to non-violence and to supporting the rule of law. No such undertaking has been required in the past, even though an undertaking is required of councillors in local government. The hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) is absolutely right: we need to be sure that it is not just a question of a paper exercise but that sanctions are in place so that if Members breach that undertaking they can be held to account. I assure her that we will examine the Standing Orders of the Northern Ireland Assembly to see whether such a sanction exists. If it does not, we are prepared to introduce and support an amendment to the Bill to ensure that provision is made for such a sanction.
The hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) and others have made reference to things that are not in the Bill, and it is a matter of regret that we cannot yet legislate for the provisions of the Stormont House agreement dealing with legacy matters. The Democratic Unionist party supports full implementation of the Stormont House agreement. We are doing nothing that holds back implementation of the agreement. We are all aware that implementation has not taken place because of a stand-off or impasse on the question of national security. Here I differ from the hon. Gentleman. He talked about victims, but I am interested not just in the victims of the past but in ensuring that we do not have more victims in future. When we take action that compromises the security of our people and brings into the public domain the manner in which the security forces operate to counter terrorism we put people at risk in Northern Ireland. We put lives at risk, and we create the potential for future victims in Northern Ireland, because sadly not everyone has signed up to the peace process. Not all paramilitary organisations are on ceasefire. People out there today are targeting others—in my own constituency, in the past couple of weeks there have been two instances of prison officers having to leave their home because of threats from dissident republican organisations.
Knowledge and intelligence have, thankfully, prevented attacks from going ahead, which tells us that our security services continue to operate to prevent loss of life and prevent further victims from being created. I would say to the hon. Member for Belfast South and the Social Democratic and Labour party that, yes, we want the maximum disclosure that is available, but we also need to ensure that the security of the people we represent is protected. Yes, we want processes to be in place for innocent victims of terrorism to enable them to have access to information and justice and a degree of closure. At the same time, we must not compromise the ability of the security forces to protect the community in Northern Ireland and prevent further victims from being created in future.
On the national security issue, no democratic party should give cover to Sinn Féin on this issue, because we know that what their game is. It is about rewriting the history of the troubles. The reality is that 90% of all the killings that occurred in the troubles were carried out by paramilitary organisations. However, if we look at the media coverage, read the newspapers and look at the amount of money spent on investigations and inquests, proportionately far more of that resource goes on the 10% of deaths attributed to the state. Many of those deaths were the result of the security forces killing people who were engaged in acts of terrorism, but far more emphasis is put on those deaths than on the 90% of innocent victims murdered by paramilitary organisations.
Mr Gregory Campbell
I agree with my right hon. Friend on the 90% versus the 10%, but it now appears that in some instances where the Provisional IRA carried out atrocities there is an attempt by Sinn Féin to blame those in the security forces, the police and the Army. The abysmal audacity of some people knows no bounds, beyond even what my right hon. Friend described.
Mr Donaldson
My hon. Friend is right. We constantly hear the Sinn Féin mantra that it is not just a case of 90% versus 10% of killings, but that the state was somehow responsible for directing many of the paramilitary-related deaths. No one with any rational thought in their head will fall for that nonsense from the republican movement.
There is now an investigation resourced from outside Northern Ireland into the actions of the agent known as Stakeknife, Freddie Scappaticci from west Belfast, in which the emphasis is on the killings that he allegedly may have been involved in, but the question for me is who was directing Freddie Scappaticci? Who was giving the orders to Freddie Scappaticci to carry out the internal investigations of alleged republican informers? It was the IRA army council, some of whom, as we know, are now senior political figures in Northern Ireland—the very same people who point the finger at the Secretary of State and at the Government. However, as I said recently in a radio interview, far more fingers are pointing back in their direction when it comes to those issues.
Ian Paisley
The audacity of Sinn Féin and the IRA in this matter needs to be highlighted. It affects not only Northern Ireland cases—we have the case of Loughgall—but cases involving murders on the mainland, such as the Birmingham case. Now there is an attempt to blame the security services in England for the Birmingham bombing. It is atrocious. We have to nail this one, and nail it true.
Mr Donaldson
My hon. Friend is right. We apply the same standard to republican-related murders and loyalist-related murders. The idea that the Ulster Volunteer Force, for example, would be exonerated from the Loughinisland killings in the constituency of the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) because of allegations of collusion is just as perverse and absurd as the idea that the IRA would be exonerated from the massacres and murders that it committed in the past. The same applies on both sides.
In conclusion, we want to see progress in dealing with the legacy issues. We want to see the historical investigations unit established, with full police powers to investigate the unsolved murders. I talk to the innocent victims, and as they look on at what is happening, they feel that they are not being given a fair crack of the whip, an opportunity. We must move matters on. In the interim—I raised this before with the Secretary of State—the First Minister, Arlene Foster, has supported the call for the resources already set aside for historical investigations to be allocated to the legacy investigation unit of the PSNI so that that money does not come out of front-line policing in Northern Ireland.
The PSNI needs to continue to deal with current crime and with the current terrorist threat, so we do not want to see the police budget depleted by the continued drawing down of resource for the investigation of legacy cases. Those need to be investigated, absolutely, but we hope the Secretary of State will listen to what the Chief Constable and the First Minister have said and allow some of that resource to be freed up and transferred to the PSNI to enable it to do more to help the innocent victims of terrorism.
Tom Elliott (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) (UUP)
Like others, I welcome progress on the Bill. There are two aspects on which the Ulster Unionist party has been to the fore. The first is the continuing terrorist activity in Northern Ireland and beyond. The second, which was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (Danny Kinahan), is the need for more time after elections to allow negotiations on a programme for government. We hope that those two weeks will be beneficial for Northern Ireland in the next term of the Assembly and in future. I look on those as positive aspects. The extension of the time for negotiations was proposed by us as far back as 2011.
I am almost tempted to go into some topics that are not in the Bill, but perhaps what is in the Bill is enough for us to discuss. The legacy issues will need to be dealt with and there must be equality and fairness in any inquiry or investigation. That is not apparent now. For example, I understand that the PSNI legacy unit has almost 20 officers involved in the Bloody Sunday inquiries. That is fine. The problem is that there is not one PSNI officer currently working on the Enniskillen investigation, for example, so there is a huge imbalance.
On the commission to look into terrorist or paramilitary activities, we must consider recent history, even since the Belfast and St Andrews agreements were signed. The UDA, the UVF and loyalist paramilitary and terrorist organisations have been mentioned. They have been responsible for some brutal murders. We have just heard the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) mention Lisa Dorrian. It is a terrible affliction that her family suffers daily. I cannot imagine what it is like.
On the opposite side also, the republican movement, particularly the IRA, has been responsible for some brutal murders. Let us not forget that, as has been mentioned, the IRA and Sinn Féin are inextricably linked and they sit at the heart of Government. Think of some of the murders that have taken place—Robert McCartney, Denis Donaldson, Paul Quinn and more recently Kevin McGuigan. What strikes me about all those is not just the brutality, but the clinical way in which those murders were carried out. Such planned executions could be carried out only by an organisation with the ability of the IRA.
Let us not forget that the Chief Constable said that the IRA and the army council still exist. We need to deal with that and with the question of whether they are inextricably linked with Sinn Féin. That is a major question that will hang over the Northern Ireland Executive and the Northern Ireland people for years to come. That is why there is major concern in Northern Ireland that someone who may still be a member of the IRA army council will have the privilege of appointing representatives to the commission.
Mr Gregory Campbell
The hon. Gentleman is outlining the case that Sinn Féin and the IRA are one and the same. Does he agree that in all probability in the two weeks after the Assembly election that will remain the case when decisions have to be made about whether to be in the Executive or out of it?
Tom Elliott
I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman. That has been the case for some time now, and it will remain the case, irrespective of what the commission comes up with. There will remain a huge question mark over some people’s right to remain senior members of the Executive.
The second aspect of the Bill is the pledge of office for Ministers and the undertaking for MLAs. That is welcome, but I have major concerns about its effectiveness. The hon. Member for North Down indicated that she is concerned about how sanctions—if there are any—will be applied, and I agree with her. Whether we can do anything about that may be an issue for the Committee stage, and I do not know whether the Secretary of State will come back with any suggestions on that. However, I am not so sure whether a pledge of ministerial office or an undertaking as an Assembly Member will make much difference to people who bombed and murdered in the past. If people could do that in the past, these things are not going to make a huge difference.
The third aspect of the legislation is the commitment and the statements in the budget. There was a major logjam in the Executive for months over the financial provisions and the budget issues, and that is why it is welcome that we are trying to progress the matter. Many Departments suffered greatly because of that blockage: health waiting lists rocketed; road and other infrastructure maintenance and development almost came to a standstill; and care for the elderly and vulnerable was greatly diminished, which everyone feels very sorry about, particularly if they are a carer and did not have help and support because of a political logjam.
Again, I come back to the issue of sanctions. We have heard about the sanctions regarding the pledge of office and the undertakings. What will be the sanction if the budget or financial undertakings are not lived up to? There does not appear to be any sanction mechanism for those who deliberately hold up the process and prevent everyone else from getting the benefit of a financial deal.
I welcome the progress that has been made, but only time will confirm whether the proposals deliver on the issues of terrorism, commitments by elected representatives and commitments on budgetary and financial resolutions.
Ian Paisley
The hon. Gentleman should be personally congratulated for the legal case he brought, where sanctions were imposed on someone who tweeted evil about him and the gallant organisation he was a member of—the Ulster Defence Regiment. He has demonstrated that, where there is a legal remedy, that is sometimes the best sanction.
Tom Elliott
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments. Obviously, that is still rumbling on, but we got a sanction of some degree. I hope that the Assembly or this House can provide sanctions in this legislation. Like many others, I will await the outcomes and the outworkings of what is proposed here. As hon. Members will appreciate, I have some concerns about the outworkings of some of the proposals, and particularly about the sanctions, but I give the Bill a fair wind at this stage.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
I am delighted to participate in this Second Reading debate. I offer my condolences to the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) following the bereavement of his staff member. I also offer my condolences to my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) following his family’s bereavement last night.
In its generality, the Bill deals with trying to eradicate paramilitarism. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell), I want to emphasise not only my party’s consistent support for political and economic stability throughout Northern Ireland and the island of Ireland, but, above all, our unequivocal opposition to all forms of paramilitarism, whether it comes from republican or loyalist paramilitaries. Paramilitarism, and what it fed and spawned, created not only instability but fear. It was like a cancer running throughout our society.
There were also other issues. The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) referred to the murder of six innocent men in Loughinisland on 18 June 1994. That is a night I will never forget, because two people who were murdered that night were directly related to relatives of mine—one was an uncle and another was a cousin. In that respect, therefore, I know the character of those people, and their only political act on any occasion was to register their vote. Never by word or deed did they undertake any form of paramilitary activity, but they died at the butt of a gun, and their bodies were strewn over a pub.
I would therefore say to the Secretary of State that her comments on 11 February were in some ways unfair, because at the moment the independent police ombudsman is undertaking, and near the completion of, another inquiry into what happened in Loughinisland on that night and why it happened. Were there elements of collusion between the then RUC and those who perpetrated those awful crimes on that night, robbing the community that I represent and, above all, that I live in of six good people and irrevocably changing our community, not because what happened moved people towards violence in any form, but because it left them in a state of fear, in a community that had never known any form of violence before? I urge the Secretary of State in that respect to be particularly careful, because her words on 11 February could be construed as trying to obfuscate that inquiry by the police ombudsman, which is near completion. That is the second inquiry, because the previous ombudsman’s inquiry was inconclusive and, in many ways, could be perceived as being deliberately inconclusive.
Lady Hermon
I am listening carefully to the hon. Lady’s comments, and I have huge regard for her. I would just like her to put on record this evening her gratitude to the RUC, which stood between the whole community of Northern Ireland and absolute mayhem through more than 30 years of appalling violence. Three hundred and two RUC officers paid the ultimate price with their lives. I am sure she would like to put on record her gratitude for the sacrifice and courage of the RUC through the awful years of the troubles.
Ms Ritchie
I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. We were always opposed to the murder of members of the security forces, whether those security forces were the RUC, the UDR or the Army. We saw what that did to those people and to their families. That murder and that paramilitarism against members of the security forces was totally unacceptable; we condemned it at the time, and we will always condemn it—we are very clear about that. Let me move on to other issues.
There is a clear need to ensure that economic stability is embedded in Northern Ireland, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) said when he referred to issues to do with corporation tax and the loss of jobs last week at Bombardier in the constituency of the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), and other job losses. The most important thing is to ensure that existing economic stability in Northern Ireland is protected. What better way to do that, I say again, than through continued membership of the European Union, because we have a ready export market in the south of Ireland and are also able to trade with the wider Common Market? I ask the Secretary of State to reflect on her position in that respect.
Moving on to elements of the Bill, clause 1(4) deals with the independent reporting commission, to which the First Minister and Deputy First Minister can nominate two persons. I suggest that there would need to be a legislative input for the Justice Department, despite the character of the independent reporting commission. It could be argued that any Northern Ireland nominations should be made by the Executive as a collective body, or chosen from proposals made by parties. The issues that fall to the independent reporting commission brought the parties together in September last year, because they refer directly to the murders of Gerard Davison in the first week in May last year and of Kevin McGuigan in August. Both people resided in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South.
During the negotiations—I am sure that the Secretary of State and the Minister will recall this—we in the SDLP circulated papers to the three Governments and all parties on a whole-enforcement approach and a whole-community approach on how to address the issues of paramilitarism. Despite fresh start being designed and managed to be a two-party deal, there should have been all-party work on IRC membership. How can the work and the mandate of the IRC, which includes Dublin representatives, be reconciled with Sinn Féin’s approach to Tom Murphy from South Armagh? I would like to press the Secretary of State on precisely how much new moneys are to be made available to the National Crime Agency and the PSNI, when those moneys will be released, and how they will be split between the National Crime Agency and the PSNI.
Clause 2(3)(a) deals with national security, which was referred to by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley. Paramilitarism and criminality are therefore to be addressed, but unfortunately the British Government can invoke national security, and that allows for the protection of agents who have information, thereby impeding work on the resolution of many cases.
Clause 6(1) deals with institutional reform. Yes, 14 days before the appointment of Ministers is okay, but fresh start refers to a proposal that parties have to agree to go into the Executive before the programme for government is finally agreed. Have the Government contemplated any amendment to this proposition? The pledge of office for Ministers states that they must
“support the rule of law unequivocally in word and deed and…support all efforts to uphold it.”
How can this be reconciled with Sinn Féin’s view on the National Crime Agency? The NCA is a vehicle for the rule of law, yet in February 2015 Sinn Féin opposed a motion in the Assembly that proposed support in word and deed, and refused to endorse it at a recent meeting of the Policing Board. How does the new pledge address Sinn Féin’s approach to Mr Murphy? The same applies to the pledge of office for Assembly Members.
In the Stormont House talks, and in our submissions to those talks, we have made the point time and again that capricious or divided political messages on paramilitarism exacerbate the challenges facing people trying to move community transitions and graduations away from ingrained paramilitary interests. A genuinely united political stance from all parties in the Assembly is imperative if we are to enable statutory agencies and community groups to challenge ongoing paramilitary activity, which should be condemned outright from whatever quarter it comes. For that reason, the ministerial pledge of office and the undertaking by Assembly Members are welcome, but further clarification is required.
One element of the pledge, in particular, requires further scrutiny: the reference in the pledge of office and the undertaking by MLAs to their duty
“to support those who are determined to make the transition away from paramilitarism”.
Will the Secretary of State or the Minister provide some clarification on that? Rooting out paramilitarism is not an overnight process, and scope has to be allowed for transition, but that cannot apply to illegal or untoward activity by paramilitary groups, or manifest itself as respect or tolerance for different classes of paramilitary behaviour. As MPs representing Northern Ireland constituencies, we have seen many examples of paramilitary activity.
As I said in my intervention on the Secretary of State, I regret the fact that there has been no legislative addressing of the legacy issues that need to be dealt with—the victims and the past. I urge that such legislation be introduced and that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle said, it is subjected to detailed scrutiny by this House, because we owe that to all the victims and all those who have suffered so terribly as a result of such heinous violence that was never asked for and never called for.
In the outworkings of all these agreements, we must try to achieve political and economic stability, because that is what we all strive for and all want to see. For the betterment of all our constituents and all the citizens of Northern Ireland, we must ensure that social justice is provided for and that inequalities that have been inherent across the community for some years are totally addressed. We must also ensure that we see the sustaining of existing jobs and the provision of new jobs through the building up of small and medium-sized enterprises, but also jobs through foreign direct investment. I ask the Secretary of State and the Minister to work with the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure that this comes about.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
I join my right hon. and hon. Friends and colleagues in acknowledging the presence of the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), who is diligent as the Chair of the Select Committee. He has suffered a close personal loss in the untimely death of Mark Calway and he has the sympathy of all of us. I also acknowledge the message of sympathy from my hon. Friend the Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie), which I will pass on to my sister.
This Bill takes forward aspects of what has been called the fresh start agreement. I said at the time that an undue amount of political Febreze had been attached to that particular agreement, because it was not as widely agreed as the photograph on the front of Library briefing paper for this Bill would suggest. It implies that all the parties were agreed, but we and the Alliance party have made it clear that we see most of the agreement as being between Sinn Féin, the Democratic Unionist party and the British and Irish Governments.
That does not mean that the rest of us did not make significant contributions to the discussions. My hon. Friend is right to point out that, while other parties said a lot in front of the cameras about how the issue of paramilitarism had to be brought to a head, mine was the only party to make substantive contributions, on paper, on how to progress. We suggested a whole enforcement approach, because many parties and people believed that a blind eye was being turned to different levels of criminal activity and that bye-balls were being given to particular people. There was a feeling that the Governments were happy to allow some crime to continue, essentially on the basis that it related to personal assets. Even if those assets and criminal activities derived from former paramilitary activities and associations, they were somehow deemed not to be political any more.
When we asked the relevant authorities about those assets and activities in the past, we were told that they were being treated as personal and family issues, not as political or organisational matters. Many parties have raised that issue and it has been discussed in previous debates in this House, including by some hon. Members sitting behind me. It relates to fuel laundering, various aspects of smuggling and, indeed, environmental crime, which involves significant quantities of illegal and hazardous waste. Clearly, there are vestiges of former paramilitary associations and a hangover or nexus of certain paramilitary groups or people who were formerly associated with such groups.
Although we advocated a whole enforcement approach, I acknowledge that both Governments were adamant in the negotiations that no blind eye was being turned and that all the relevant agencies, both individually and collectively, were pursuing everything possible. The Governments accepted, however, that perhaps there needed to be even more visibility and that they needed to be more vocal. That is why the commitments emphasise the role of the cross-border taskforce and similar efforts.
We also advocated a whole community approach, because that is what is needed if the north is going to achieve a wholesome society free of all the abnormalities of paramilitary traces and the other divisions that are a hangover of the past. In fact, our paper said:
“Political parties ought to be showing coherent and consistent shared standards which recognise and repudiate nefarious paramilitary interests and involvements. This should reflect a shared approach which is about rooting out paramilitarism and its trace activities, not just singling out particular groups or given parties.
Parties should unite in adhering to a whole-community approach to achieving a wholesome community free of sectarianism, communal division and vicious vestiges of ongoing paramilitarism. A whole community approach should entail more than challenging paramilitary practices or presences in our own constituency or highlighting them in someone else’s. It should mean that we all see pernicious paramilitary activity in any corner of the north as an affront to the wholesome democratic society we should want as this generation’s legacy to the next.
Deep cleansing the spectrum of residual orbits and habits of paramilitarism should be a key dimension in any programme for cohesion, sharing and integration in a healthily united community.
The converse is also pertinent. We cannot eradicate the recurrence of, or recourse to, paramilitarism in given settings without overcoming divisions, tensions, apprehensions and grievances which paramilitaries convert to their own utility.”
In calling for that whole community approach, we posited the idea of parties making new declarations and suggested something along the lines of the Mitchell principles or the Nolan principles of public life. We wanted every party to make meaningful pledges and to adhere to clear commitments, but, as my hon. Friend has said, the Bill does not provide for that. There is no guarantee that the representatives of all the parties will unite around and adhere to any pledges. Instead, the Bill adds to the pledge of office for Ministers and creates a parallel pledge for Members of the Legislative Assembly.
Whenever there have been controversies regarding whether parties have been consorting or engaging with paramilitaries, the allegation has related not just to MLAs or Ministers, but to councillors. Are councillors not bound by the standards of the pledge in the same way as they are to their commitment to non-violence? We are debating this proposed legislation, so should it not also apply to MPs, or are they free of the standards? They apply to MLAs and to Ministers, but not to others. We need a more articulate approach than the pledges as they appear in the Bill.
The hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) is right to point out that there is no way of enforcing or arbitrating with regard to any dispute or controversy. That applies not just to the pledge taken by MLAs; it applies very directly to the pledge of office taken by Ministers, because there is no means of arbitrating on alleged breaches of the ministerial code. The Executive have no means of doing that. The First Minister and Deputy First Minister have still not suggested a clear way of investigating and making judgments on alleged breaches of the ministerial code. People can take each other to court alleging breaches of the ministerial code, but the Executive have no sensible, clear or credible mechanism to address the issue, even though that is what is needed.
A similar mechanism is also needed for the Assembly in order to decide whether an issue should go to the Committee on Standards and Privileges or elsewhere. It is not good enough to leave the decision to Standing Orders. The issue should be subject to a higher-order political decision, rather than be decided by the Assembly’s Committee on Procedures when it considers Standing Orders. That was the mistake made many years ago in the original Northern Ireland Act 1998. The provisions around the petition of concern in paragraphs 11 to 13 of the Good Friday agreement were very particular about how limited the use of petitions of concern was to be. Petitions of concern were to be used selectively in instances where people alleged that there had been a breach, or that there was an issue of human rights or equality. A mechanism would be set up on the basis of petitions of concern to test that issue, and then things would proceed.
Unfortunately, rather than providing for what was in the Good Friday agreement, the legislation simply stated that Standing Orders would provide for the devices that were mentioned in paragraphs 11 to 13. That was never done right, which is why we have the situation that the hon. Member for Tewkesbury complained about. We have a wide open, drive-by, veto-style petition of concern, which has been used on a tit-for-tat basis and often frivolously.
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
The hon. Gentleman has made a strong point about the principles that should be in play in public life. Is there not a certain irony in the fact that his colleagues in the Northern Ireland Assembly have, alongside Sinn Féin, this evening signed a petition of concern to retain and enshrine religious discrimination in the selection of teachers in the Province?
Mark Durkan
My colleagues have signed a petition of concern against a current proposal. [Interruption.] It is a matter of trying to protect existing laws and not change them rashly before an election. The DUP has cited that in relation to other matters. It is about defending the existing equality provisions. What happens with a petition of concern should be what was decided under the Good Friday agreement. Rather than that being the end of the matter, it should be the subject of an investigation by a specially appointed committee to see what issues of rights and equality are involved, to test those issues and to allow the matter to proceed. That is how it should have been, as per the agreement. That has been our consistent position on how petitions of concern should properly be dealt with; they should not be abused as they have been.
I turn to the pledge of office by Ministers and the undertaking by Members of the Assembly. The commitment is confined to Ministers and Members of the Assembly, and does not extend to other party politicians. In addition, the pledge of office requires Ministers
“to work collectively with the other members of the Executive Committee to achieve a society free of paramilitarism”.
I would hope that the Ministers’ commitment would extend much further than simply to working with their ministerial colleagues. Similarly, the commitment of Assembly Members should extend further than just to working with their Assembly colleagues.
There is also the question of what some of the terms mean. The hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) was right to point out the final sub-pledge in the pledge of office by Ministers and the undertaking by Assembly Members, which is
“to accept no authority, direction or control on my political activities other than my democratic mandate alongside my own personal and party judgment”.
In the same pledge of office, Ministers pledge to be bound by decisions of the Assembly and the Executive Committee. The final sub-pledge appears to contradict that, so there is potential tension there. In addition, if we fill the gap that the hon. Member for North Down mentioned by creating clear standards and sanctions, people will have to accept some trammelling of their political conduct, because they will be listening to others as to what the due standards of behaviour and engagement should be. I think that there is a problem, which the hon. Member for Gedling was right to identify.
I want to take up the point that my hon. Friend the Member for South Down mentioned about the second to last of the sub-pledges, which is
“to support those who are determined to make the transition away from paramilitarism”.
That might seem to be fair enough as a general statement of support, but what does it mean in practice? Are there potential tensions between that and other parts of the pledge, such as the commitment
“to challenge paramilitary attempts to control communities”
and
“to challenge all paramilitary activity and associated criminality”?
The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) earlier questioned whether some of the former paramilitary personalities who have talked a lot about their positive contribution to the peace process have been more laggardly in relation to certain standards and practices, and whether they have turned a blind eye to certain things.
The question therefore arises of whether or not, when we criticise or challenge such people, we will be accused of not supporting those who are determined to make the transition away from paramilitarism. Many people use as a justification for their demands for funding for particular schemes—jobs for the boys, set-ups and all the rest of those things—that they are all about weaning people away from paramilitarism. Other people in the community sometimes challenge that by questioning why they were not interviewed for posts that had become available in community organisations or whatever, while other people were interviewed. We need to look at such issues.
We should remember the very glaring example involving my hon. Friend the Member for South Down. When she was a Minister, she decided to cease her Department’s funding of the conflict transformation initiative because the Chief Constable and other senior police officers made it very clear that those in the Ulster Defence Association, which was essentially funded and supported by the conflict transformation initiative, were up to their necks in a series of high-profile crimes. The Chief Constable made that clear, and high-profile criminal activity was taking place at the time. My hon. Friend brought that to the Executive, which told her she had to decide because it was a matter for her Department. However, when she made her decision, they changed their ideas. Members of other parties said, “Oh, no. The conflict transformation initiative is supporting people who are trying to make the transition away from paramilitarism,” while as far as others were concerned, the money was going to support and indulge people who were up to their necks in crime at that time. Which was it?
There are potential tensions in how any of us might interpret the pledge and the undertaking in clauses 7 and 8. We could take them in very different directions, so work is needed to refine them and define them better. We must also ensure that somebody else can arbitrate, because otherwise there will be a lot of arguments between the parties on such issues. The one thing we do not want is for parties to end up arguing with each other about who opposes aspects of paramilitarism either now or historically. The more united and coherent the parties can be seen to be, the better.
We want to make sure that that applies at all levels to resolve many of the existing issues. If there are controversies about party politicians turning up at particular events or protests that paramilitaries are also attending, we need to be able to deal with such issues. We must ensure that the pledge governs what happens when there are other controversies, such as the naming of the play park that has often been mentioned in this Chamber. It should be clear that we have an absolutely coherent pledge relating to paramilitary practices, either historical or current, and that we all have the same yardstick. That would provide protection for all individual politicians put under pressure at community level to get involved in this, that or the other, or to lend their presence to an event. A proper, articulate and robust pledge could give us a lot in that respect.
There are other issues about the Bill that I want to mention, before I touch on what is not in it. As hon. Members have said, the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister will appoint members of the independent reporting commission. In the fresh start agreement the reference was to the Executive, but the Bill makes it clear and explicit that the power lies with the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. I share the view of other hon. Members that that needs to be the subject of wider consideration and consultation. There are also issues to consider about the Secretary of State’s powers in respect of the commission. The fact that the Secretary of State will be in charge of defining and possibly changing many interpretations means that more work and consideration is needed.
I want to make a few points about clause 9, which is about draft budgets. The Government say they have included the clause because they want to ensure greater transparency and sustainability in relation to the budget. I am all for transparency in budgets, as I was when I had the job of the Minister of Finance and Personnel. In various talks, the Social Democratic and Labour party has advocated going much further on budget transparency. As well as designing the whole procedure for a fairly transparent process of draft budgets that are fully considered in the Assembly, open to public consultation and then subject to the revised budget procedure, we have advocated in various talks, going right back to Leeds castle, the idea that after the revised budget is approved by the Assembly, each departmental Minister should, within a number of weeks, make a statement about their own spending plan and be fully answerable to the Assembly on how they will deliver it. We thought that that would add to the transparency, but it was not to the taste of many of the parties that were talking a lot about transparency. I remember Peter Robinson telling me, “We don’t want that much transparency—that would be just too much.” I think there should be transparency in how the Assembly follows up on budgets.
Under clause 9, a statement will be laid before the Assembly about the amount of UK funding to be allocated. Will the Secretary of State consider accepting an amendment to take that further by saying that the statement should specify exactly how the Northern Ireland Barnett allocation was calculated? That would allow people in the Assembly, and Members here, to see exactly how the spending amount for Northern Ireland had been determined on the basis of spending commitments here and, possibly, on the basis of legislation and legislative requirements that had gone through this place. We would be able to see whether the two correlated.
A key argument that the Scottish National party and my party made in relation to English votes for English laws was that England-only or England and Wales-only legislation that goes through this place will inform the spending plans for England or England and Wales, and will, in turn, be factored into the Barnett formula. Therefore, let us have transparency. The Government tried to tell us that no legislation has those sorts of spending consequences. That is funny, because the same Government usually say, when they reject amendments to Bills, that they are doing so because there would be budgetary consequences. So they will not take amendments to legislation because there would be budgetary consequences, but with English votes for English laws they pretend that legislation does not have budgetary consequences.
The Government might be right, or we might be right. The way to prove who is right and to establish the facts in the future is to take the transparency provision a bit further. It should not be hard to colour in the budget statement a bit more. Rather than being just a brief outline statement, it should be well coloured in, whether in respect of the draft budget or the subsequent statement that comes with the revised budget. If people want transparency, that would be a good addition to the Bill.
There is a question over whether one intention behind the statement is that it can be used, in effect, as a budget cap. The Government say that it is about transparency and sustainability. However, when the Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Bill was debated, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury said that the switch-on power would be activated only when the Treasury was satisfied that there was a balanced and sustainable budget. Some of us asked in the Bill Committee whether the Treasury would use that power to make a judgment on the spending plans of the Executive in relation to other matters, such as student finance, water charges or prescription charges. After all, the Treasury was using the Assembly’s failure to pass the welfare reform legislation to make the judgment that there was not a balanced and sustainable budget. The Financial Secretary said, “We will judge a budget on the sum of its parts.” He did not rule out the Government using the power to involve themselves in those other matters.
One reason why I welcome the provisions of clause 9 on draft budgets is that they settle a point that arose after the Assembly budget in 2008, when Peter Robinson was the Minister for Finance and Personnel. We tried to amend that budget and the programme for government, and we voted against aspects of it. A few months later, Peter Robinson announced that because the budget had contained indicative figures for 2009 and 2010, draft budgets did not need to be tabled before the Assembly in the subsequent years. The procedures that were laid down in the 1998 Act were clearly predicated on an annual financial exercise, but he said that he had received legal advice that the requirement for that exercise before each financial year had been discharged by covering the figures for all three years in the 2008 budget.
We challenged that at the time and took it to the Speaker of the Assembly. Unfortunately, he did not rule but said it was up to us to make a legal challenge. The flaky advice given by Peter Robinson was followed by that of his successor as Minister of Finance and Personnel, the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), who said that the draft budget exercise was not needed. Clause 9 is clear that it will be an annual exercise. There is absolutely no ambiguity or doubt in how it is framed: it is an annual exercise. A draft budget has to be tabled and debated fully every year, with an additional statement made ahead of it. We are glad that that is set out in the Bill. It may restore the Assembly’s role in transparency, which needs to be amplified. The Assembly should be doing much more scrutiny of budgets and spending; that should not just be left to bodies outside the Assembly.
Members have raised issues not covered in the Bill, and the Secretary of State, in her opening remarks, addressed issues relating to legacy. Like my colleagues, I regret that, rather than our ending up with an all-party agreement, welfare reform was agreed by the three amigos of Sinn Féin, the Tories and the DUP—the austerity alliance. This Bill is now being brought forward, and we await the legacy legislation. It is important that it is not rushed. It is also important that we give some issues full consideration again. I recognise that the Secretary of State thinks the measure of agreement apparent around the table at Stormont House was the highest degree of agreement there has been. I would make the point, however, that Eames-Bradley offered a much better prospectus for dealing with the past. So did the Haass proposals, although not as good as Eames-Bradley. They were watered down in the Stormont House agreement, and they have been watered down further in a number of respects.
Victims’ groups have their own concerns, upsets and apprehensions about some of the issues involved. I ask them, and all parties, to consider all the issues in the round, not least with respect to the potential to deal with what have now been called “thematics”. It is hugely important that the historical investigations units is set up to undertake the work formerly done by the Historical Enquiries Team and the work on the past done by the police ombudsman, but we should recognise that the HIU will be confined to looking at killings. We should also recognise that it will work, a bit like the HET, on the basis of reports being provided to the families. Those reports will then be treated as the private property of the families.
Many cases, however, are linked. There are wider patterns, themes and issues at stake, not all of which relate to killings, and many of them need to be scrutinised and given an airing. In many ways, we think that would help to answer some of the questions put by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley. He says that there is an unbalanced approach to the past, and that those who are seeking the truth and want the past to be investigated are concentrating entirely on what the state did and not on what paramilitary actors did. The whole question of thematics and patterns in those investigations could lead to more balance, which is why we in the SDLP in particular put such emphasis on that.
I recall that in the Haass negotiations, Richard Haass himself replied to points that the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley made about a failed market in relation to the past, whereby people with the means and the motives were pursuing the aspects of the past that interested them, while others were being left aside. He argued that thematics was one way of evening the situation up and ensuring that other pictures and other concerns were looked at.
Lady Hermon
Before the hon. Gentleman concludes his remarks—[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] Despite the noises off, I want to take this opportunity to express on behalf of my colleagues and friends how very sorry we are to hear that he has had a bereavement in his extended family. We would be most grateful if he would offer to his sister our sympathy and support at a time when her partner was tragically killed in a traffic accident last night. We are very sorry indeed that death has visited her door and the hon. Gentleman’s door at such an untimely stage of life.
Mark Durkan
I thank the hon. Lady for her kind condolences, which I will certainly pass on. I accept them in the spirit in which she has shared them—not just on her own behalf but on behalf of her colleagues as well. Of course, whenever we experience the shock of death like that, it comes as a throwback. I did not know what had happened when I spotted the tapes across the road and the police action that was going on; it looked like a security operation that would have been familiar to so many of us down the years. In talking to the police at the scene, I had memories of other occasions, which brought to mind once again the position that we are all talking about, from our different party stances, when we deal with the concerns of victims and survivors about the past. This is why we need to give the issue full consideration now.
When the legacy legislation comes forward, we must ensure that it is going to be fit for the needs and purposes of victims and survivors. We must listen to them, and think a little more about what they say. I hope that the sort of consensus that the Secretary of State says she wants to build will not be one in which she just tries to square things off between herself and one or two other parties. It must be done much more widely.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) has said, we will bring forward amendments on some of the issues that I have mentioned, in an attempt to proof and improve the Bill. We are obviously not opposed to its passage, because we need the changes that it makes, for instance to the timeline for the appointment of Ministers, and we need to allow a programme for government to be aired and shared before Ministers are appointed. If that is to happen in time for the mandate of the next Assembly, the Bill will have to go through. We are certainly not throwing any spanners in the works in respect of the timing, but we want to try to improve the Bill and make good some of the gaps and wrinkles in it.
Even in respect of the limited things the Bill does, we think more could have been done. Why should the First Minister and Deputy First Minister remain the singular appointments of two parties? Why not revert to the original Good Friday agreement principle of electing the First Minister and Deputy First Minister? Sinn Féin and the DUP no longer have a problem in going through the Lobbies together. They could not do so originally in 2007 when devolution was restored, which is why the whole system of appointing the First and Deputy First Minister had to be changed, but now that they can do that and now that they are happy to be an axis and be in a power pact, there is absolutely no reason why they should not. The First and Deputy First Ministers should be mandated by the Assembly. We have tried to secure such an amendment to other Bills. I do not know whether we will try it with this Bill, because we may concentrate more on the matters that are in it than those that are not.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
Second Reading debates are often described as timely, well-informed and apposite, and occasionally that is true. Tonight we have heard an excellent Second Reading debate, featuring first-class contributions from all corners of the Chamber.
Let me associate myself, and my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), with the expressions of sympathy for the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) on the death of Mark Calway, whom many of us knew. The hon. Gentleman has sustained that loss with great forbearance and courage, and he has the sympathy of the House, as has the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) for a family bereavement that I hope we can all bear with him, while expressing our sympathy and condolences.
One constant theme ran throughout tonight’s debate, and I am delighted to say that, for once on these occasions, it was a theme of optimism. This was a serious and a sober debate, but at every stage there was that chink of light, that chance of hope, that good news, and that commitment to a better, shared future. That is what we heard from Members of every party, and I think it was one of the most important things that we heard.
The right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) observed—rather flatteringly, I suppose—that we were represented more in quality than in quantity tonight, but many more people beyond the Chamber are watching us tonight and following our deliberations, and many will be noting, with admiration and gratitude, that we are moving on in Northern Ireland: moving on to a better and a shared future. This may not be the most important piece of legislation that has ever been dealt with on the Floor of the House, but it is an essential, crucial building block in that wall, that architecture, that structure of the peaceful Northern Ireland to which we all aspire. I have been greatly impressed by the quality, and the determination, of the comments that have been made tonight.
The hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Deidre Brock)—above and beyond the call of duty—presented herself on the Front Bench tonight despite suffering from something approaching laryngitis. May I suggest a certain marvellous distillation? It is available both in Ireland and in Scotland—although we tend to spell it correctly in Ireland—and it is available to the hon. Lady on request. Whether she has already been able to avail herself of a small nip I cannot say, but I can say that, as a prophylactic against such throat conditions, it is admirable and well recommended. It is also a very, very powerful curative factor.
The right hon. Member for Belfast North rightly said that this was only part of the implementation of the Stormont House agreement. Throughout his speech and others, we were privileged—we were almost blessed—to hear some extraordinarily incisive interventions from the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon), although I have to say that her suggestion that the IPSA empire should be extended to Northern Ireland is a tad controversial. We may need to discuss it at some later stage.
I also want to associate myself, and my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling, with the right hon. Gentleman’s comments about Peter Robinson. We do not give people enough credit on the Floor of the House for the work that they do. People often achieve great things and then move off the stage—perhaps to return; who knows?—and sometimes we neglect to thank and give credit to them. Not for the first time, the right hon. Gentleman did absolutely the right thing, and I think that all Members will wish to associate themselves with his comments.
We heard from the hon. Member for South Antrim (Danny Kinahan) about how things have moved on from the days of the bonfires, and we heard an extraordinarily sobering—as if sobering were needed—comment from the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson). Sometimes, when we debate Northern Ireland business on the Floor of the House, we forget the full scale and extent of the seriousness of the subject that we are debating. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the deaths—more than 3,600—that occurred during the troubles, but let it never be forgotten that more people have died by their own hand since the Good Friday agreement than died during the troubles. It is that serious; it is that sobering. The work that we do here today must always be done in the context of the facts, the realities, of the existence—still—of a legacy that is so horrific that it is sometimes almost impossible to absorb its full strength. Those suicide figures, which are very seldom publicised, are utterly bone-chilling. Every time any of us feel that we are somehow flagging in our determination to drive forward the peace process in Northern Ireland, we must never forget that it did not end with the Good Friday agreement and that the problems still exist today.
We heard a wonderful speech, not for the first time, from the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie). Having considered her comments at great length, I have decided that, yes, I agree with her that I think we should certainly stay in the EU for many reasons. She was so right yet again to refer to the troubles and the victims.
It is interesting that we strayed far and wide, and occasionally we pushed the envelope of direct relevance, and certainly when we did move out, particularly in a wide-ranging, horizon-scanning speech by the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), we trespassed in some of the byways and burreens of the debate which I had not anticipated we would be discussing. However, in one of the other interventions of the hon. Member for North Down, she referred to clause 8 and particularly the proposed new section 40A on the undertaking by members. I say to the House, and particularly the Secretary of State, that I do not think we have heard the last of this. I appreciate that it is Stormont business, but it is legislation on the Floor of this House today and it will be legislation in Committee stage on the Floor of this House. I suspect that clause 8, and particularly proposed new section 40A (1)(b), will come back to us to be discussed later.
This is one of the very few Northern Ireland debates that has not been blessed by a pithy and apposite contribution from either the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) or the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell), and I confess to a feeling of some frustration and sadness, particularly as I enjoyed the company of both hon. Gentlemen in what was a cracking good night in the Elim Pentecostal church hall in Ards the week before last, where I have to say the orange juice flowed like—well, it flowed like orange juice. We had an absolutely brilliant evening, showing that we did not need artificial stimulation and there exists in the heart of Ards a wonderful community which I had not previously been that much aware of. But it was such a pleasure to actually be able to be speaking while both of them sat and had to listen.
This has been an excellent Second Reading debate and we will move into Committee next week. There will be more discussion, but let us not forget what I said right at the beginning: the leitmotif throughout this whole debate—the one consistent golden thread that has run through it—is a golden thread of optimism, and I give credit to every single person who has participated in the debate here tonight and so many of those outside this Chamber who have contributed. I look forward to the full implementation of the fresh start agreement and the Stormont House agreement as another step on the road to that shared peaceful future to which we all aspire.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Ben Wallace)
It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound), who in every debate is optimistic and positive, and it is especially welcome that in what is, effectively, another stage of the Stormont House agreement and the fresh start agreement, we find ourselves in this Second Reading with the full support of Her Majesty’s Opposition. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) and all those on the Opposition Front Bench for their continued support for making sure that we move Northern Ireland onwards to normalisation and ensure any bumps in the road that we have experienced are sorted out to allow the Northern Ireland political settlement to bed in and move forward so that the people there can take hold of the opportunities on offer.
With the leave of the House, I would like to respond to some of the points raised in the debate. I reiterate the importance of this Bill in the implementation of November’s fresh start agreement as a whole, as well as of the specific provisions, including those that give effect to the independent reporting commission and increase fiscal transparency in the Executive’s budget-setting process.
Paramilitary activity has been a blight on Northern Ireland society and is an issue which the UK Government, the Irish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive will tackle together. The measures in this Bill will create an independent body that will report on the progress made towards ending paramilitary activity connected with Northern Ireland once and for all.
The draft budget measure achieves what was set out in the fresh start agreement, and it will ensure that the Executive cannot consider spending plans that exceed the block grant allocated from the Treasury.
Let me respond to some points raised by hon. Members. I join others in sending condolences to the family of Mark Calway, and I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) understands that we are here to support him and the family of Mark Calway in their loss. We are also incredibly grateful for the forensic support—if I can put it that way—that his Committee gives to Northern Ireland politics and Government policy. We know that pragmatic, forensic examination of our policies, and those of other people, will help build that trust in Northern Ireland.
I say to the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Deidre Brock) that as a former Member of the Scottish Parliament I know the internal workings of devolution, and some measures in the Bill that the SNP supports would not necessarily have been right for it in Scotland. However, I know that the SNP supports such measures for the reasons that the hon. Lady eloquently articulated, which are to try to move Northern Ireland forward and achieve a settlement that will allow people to put the troubles behind them.
I pay tribute to the DUP. The right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) articulated his tribute to the former First Minister, without whose actions we would not be discussing this Bill today, or indeed the previous Bill. I am grateful for the support that the DUP has given to the Government throughout this process, to try to resolve some of the issues that led to that impasse last year.
I am also grateful for the positive attitude and speeches by DUP Members, and the support that they have provided to allow an LCM to be put in place swiftly. Such determination by the Executive and the First Minister to deal with those issues in Stormont means that I am incredibly optimistic about Northern Ireland and how it will progress, and I hope that the bumps that appeared in the road when I was first appointed to this post are put behind us so that we move forward, deal with the paramilitary past, and hopefully stop such things in the future. We must also grasp with both hands the opportunities and economic challenges that are presented.
I hear the issues about legacy raised by the hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell), and we all want to solve them. In the past few weeks and months my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, the Minister for the Armed Forces and I met the Lord Chief Justice, and the Minister of Justice, the Deputy First Minister and the First Minister of Northern Ireland. Everyone is united in trying to get to a position where we can deal with the legacy of the past and move forward, and the Treasury has agreed to a package of funding—£150 million —to do that. However, we cannot just impose that £150 million on an unreformed system. We are all trying to work together to produce a long-term solution, not a short-term solution.
The phrase “national security” is often bandied about as if somehow it is being used as an unreasonable block on progress. Throughout the troubles, informers, neighbours, workmates, and ordinary members of the public helped the security forces against people who intimidated their own communities. It was not just informers; it was everybody. It was people who did not agree with violence. They might not have been Unionists; they might have been nationalists. Not only do those people deserve our protection, but we have a duty to protect them. Without their information and helpful tip-offs, without the confidentiality hotline being used, and without people in the heart of those communities saying, “We don’t stand for violence and we want an end to paramilitary bullying”, we would not have reached the end of the troubles. When people bandy around the phrase “national security” as some throwaway line, we should remember that at the heart of this is the need to protect those people and provide the duty of protection that we owe them. Without them, more blood would have been shed on the streets of Northern Ireland, and we should not forget the role that they played.
Mark Durkan
Does the Minister agree that when investigating the past, the police ombudsman has always respected such matters fully? It has never breached or compromised anybody’s interest in that regard, so surely others could be trusted to adhere to the same standard?
Mr Wallace
Everyone is entrusted with the powers that they are granted. National security does not just cover the actions of the PSNI; it covers the actions of the security services and of a range of people involved in trying to ensure that our society is safe and secure. We should remember that national security is not taken lightly. It is open to scrutiny by our Intelligence and Security Committee in this House, by the ombudsman and by the courts. The coroner and the judges often make the final decisions on many of these issues and they see the full facts, so it is important to remember that national security is about protecting life and people.
The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Tom Elliott) is absolutely right about the financial provisions. To enable a stable and secure budget to go forward, it is incredibly important to allow everyone in the Assembly to have a role in producing a budget and delivering services for better governance and better services for the people in Northern Ireland. The extension from seven to 14 days for the appointment of Ministers is absolutely a good example of making Government work better. We are delighted that as a Government we can ensure that that is put in place.
Let me reply to the hon. Member for South Antrim (Danny Kinahan) on the definition of paramilitary and paramilitary activity. In our view, that should be left to the commission to decide. It would be hard in a piece of primary legislation to prescribe—and it is the Government’s view that it is not for us to do so—how the four commissioners and the commission should look at paramilitary activity.
I hear the comments made by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) about paramilitaries leaving the stage. When I hear that comment, I often think I would not like to be in the green room at that time. There is no place for paramilitaries in Northern Ireland, and there never has been. We must make sure that there never is in the future.
I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s support for the Bill and his observations. Of course, the independent reporting commission will also cover paramilitary activity in the south, in Ireland, and that is incredibly important. I know that the people of Ireland will take note of that. The Garda, who have been incredibly supportive over the years in ensuring that cross-border activity is countered, know that all this will be effective between the north and the south, which is something that we will focus on.
The right hon. Gentleman made a powerful point, and it is important that we should be clear about it. It was INLA, IPLO, the IRA, the UVF, the Red Hand Commando and the UDA that killed innocent people on the streets of Northern Ireland and on the mainland of the United Kingdom. No amount of innuendos, or selective leaks and salacious allegations, can change that fact. It does not wash away their guilt by trying to move it on. The narrative that has been growing is very dangerous for the history of Northern Ireland, because the reality is that it was those groups that chose to go out on nights and kill people. It was those groups that planted the bombs. We will not let the alternative narrative be planted that somehow somebody else caused it and that they were therefore not guilty of what they did. We hear that, loud and clear.
Mark Durkan
On that basis, given that these organisations need to be rightly blamed and indicted for what they did, does the Minister now regret that the British Government for so long maintained the UDA’s status as a legal organisation and consistently refused to proscribe it?
Mr Wallace
If memory serves, the UDA was proscribed in 1992. I was not in this House and I was not privy to the work of Government. In fact, in 1992 I was walking around west Belfast. As for the idea that I can condemn or support the ruling, all I know is that when I was serving in Northern Ireland, I was grateful that the UDA was proscribed. I was grateful that the UVF was proscribed, and the Red Hand Commando. Any paramilitary organisation should be proscribed. Not only should any organisation that uses fear, terror and bullying be proscribed, but the people who take part should be convicted.
To the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) I say that we in this House should not forget the SDLP’s long-standing opposition to paramilitary intimidation. Very often, the SDLP bore the brunt of that intimidation. All the parties in this House have experienced at first hand intimidation by paramilitaries, either within the communities that they represented or in the neighbouring communities that sought to keep them out. I pay tribute to that long-standing commitment to peace and the democratic process. We do not forget that, but I say again that we should not take the issues of national security lightly.
On the legacy issues, as I have said earlier, all of us are trying our best. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State regularly has meetings with the victims community to make sure they feel we are doing our best. We are going to get there. We are going to try to resolve this, and that will happen—we hope—as soon as we can all get agreement.
Vernon Coaker
May I just press the Minister once more on this issue? He mentions dealing with the legacy of the past. I asked the Secretary of State, but I want to be clear about this because a number of questions have arisen throughout this interesting and good debate. Will the Minister and the Secretary of State look again at releasing some of the funding that the Treasury and the Government have put aside for dealing with legacy issues to fund the PSNI and the coroner service to deal with some of these issues which were supposed to be dealt with by other institutions? Because of the inability to come to an agreement, the PSNI and the coroner service have been left to deal with them but not been given the resources to tackle them. Will the Minister re-examine that?
Mr Wallace
Absolutely, we will support any measures that deal with the legacy, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has said. We cannot just release the money; we need all the actors on the stage to produce the solution. We need the victims, the PSNI, the courts, the Lord Chief Justice and the Executive to support the solution. If we were just to release money but nobody else was supporting the schemes or the coroners’ courts changes, for example, we would not necessarily solve the issue. We will look with all seriousness and all support at any proposals to solve the legacy issues.
The good news is that we have the Treasury’s agreement for the sum in principle, which is half the battle, as anybody who has ever been in government will know—£150 million is there. That means that the gap between getting the money and delivering it is simply a matter of getting an agreement between all the significant stakeholders in Northern Ireland. We are all determined to do that and it is one of our priorities. We are all trying to get there and we will work with all parties in Northern Ireland to try to do it.
Ms Ritchie
I referred to the split of moneys between the National Crime Agency and the PSNI. Would it be possible for the Minister to follow that up in writing to me?
Mr Wallace
I thank the hon. Lady for reminding me of something: £28 million has been allocated for tackling paramilitary activity. As far as I understand it, how that is divided is an operational decision about who needs it and where it should go. That sum has been allocated, and we think it is a step in the right direction in tackling paramilitary activity. If there is any more to tell her, I will certainly write to her.
In closing, I wish to remind the House that this Bill has the support of the Northern Ireland Executive. It will deliver on the UK Government’s commitment to the fresh start agreement and it plays a significant part in our efforts to support a stable and workable devolution settlement in Northern Ireland. I urge the House to support the Bill.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
NORTHERN IRELAND (STORMONT AGREEMENT AND IMPLEMENTATION PLAN) BILL (PROGRAMME)
(8 years, 2 months ago)
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delegated legislation
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EDUCATION
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Joint committee on statutory instruments
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Emergency Tug Vessels (West Coast of Scotland)
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Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP)
We have heard much today in the debate on our future in or out of the European Union about the issue of our security. It is right that Parliament takes seriously its security responsibilities. As part of this debate, we need to take seriously our responsibilities for the marine environment.
It is worth recapping why we had emergency towing vessels. They were a response to Lord Donaldson’s 1994 report following the Braer oil spill off the coast of Shetland. Following that disaster, 86,000 tonnes of oil were released into the North sea. We got lucky to some extent in that the oil was largely dispersed. In other areas and in other circumstances, such an oil spill could be devastating. The ships were put in place to protect human and marine life following the Braer experience. It was right in 1994, and it remains right today. The desire to provide marine safety cannot come at the expense of a penny-pinching Government walking away from their responsibilities. It is a responsibility of this Government to maintain that protection.
The UK Government kept telling us during the Scottish referendum that we were better together. How can there be any shred of validity in that statement if the Government do not take seriously our marine safety? What price better together then? Our safety cannot be traded away on the desire to save costs in Westminster. If the Government compromise on safety, they compromise their legitimacy to govern.
In 2011, the UK Government announced the removal of the vessels, although there was a subsequent agreement to retain one vessel in Orkney. That vessel is now under threat of being removed next month. Sir Alan Massey, the chief executive officer of the Marine and Coastguard Agency, said in Edinburgh two weeks ago that, following a formal risk assessment, the removal of the ETV for the far north and west was unacceptable. I agree with Sir Alan. It was also unacceptable to remove the Stornoway vessel. If there is a risk in the Northern Isles, there is a risk in the west. Put simply, the Northern Isles vessel is too far away to respond quickly enough to any incidents off the west of Scotland.
Brendan O'Hara (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
I thank my hon. Friend for securing this important debate. As one of the five Scottish National party Members for the highlands and islands, he will of course be aware that we have repeatedly called on the Government to address the maritime safety deficit caused by the removal of the Stornoway vessel in 2010-11. Does he agree that this cannot be done properly by having a single ETV based in Orkney alone? It is deeply worrying that the only existing ETV in Kirkwall is currently under threat. The position that we find ourselves in—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Natascha Engel)
Order. The hon. Gentleman’s intervention is very long. If Members keep their interventions brief, more Members can come in.
Brendan O'Hara
My last point is that the coast has been left vulnerable. Does my hon. Friend believe that the removal of the ETV at Kirkwall would be utterly unthinkable?
Ian Blackford
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, and he is quite correct. We cannot comprehend the possible risk of the loss of the vessel in Kirkwall. It is also true that there is no way in reasonable time that that vessel based in Kirkwall can get to Argyll and Bute or indeed to large parts of my constituency. We have been placed at an unacceptable level of risk. Does the Minister agree with the chief executive of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency that the removal of the Kirkwall-based vessel is unacceptable, and will he give the House an assurance that the Government will find the necessary funds to make sure that that vessel remains in place? That is a simple question, and it requires a simple yes or no answer.
Throughout Europe, the provision of emergency towing vessels is commonplace, for example in France, Germany, Norway and the Netherlands. It is good practice to protect your marine environment and coastal communities —we should do the same. The Netherlands put in place such a capability only in April 2014 to provide protection for shipping, the marine environment and their coastal communities. Many other countries see the sense in that, so why do the UK Government not accept their responsibilities? That is all we are asking.
There has been some chatter that perhaps, just perhaps, the Orkney vessel might be saved. That would be welcome—the threat should never have been there in the first place—but it does not go far enough, as my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Brendan O'Hara) said. We need the reinstatement of the second vessel. I say to the Minister, do the right thing: deliver some good news, and put the two vessels back where they should be, in the Northern and Western Isles. Show us, Minister, that the Government take our safety seriously—do not leave us exposed to the threat of environmental disaster.
Dr Paul Monaghan (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (SNP)
Does my hon. Friend agree that on safety and on all the issues that you have highlighted, the UK Government need to take into account the fact that in the coming years there will be more than 200 movements of nuclear material from Dounreay, and some of that material will be transported by sea?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Natascha Engel)
Order. Before the hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) continues, I remind Members that they should speak through the Chair. At the moment, Members are addressing one another directly, and I should be grateful if they addressed their comments through the Chair.
Ian Blackford
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I agree with the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Dr Monaghan). I would argue that there is a wider point, because if we had responsibility for our marine environment in Scotland we would make sure that we had ships in place to protect our coastal community. Moreover, the unbelievable threat that we face from nuclear waste being moved by sea down the west coast of Scotland would certainly not be tolerated by an independent Scottish Government.
Let us think about the risks that we face on the west and north coasts of Scotland: extreme weather, treacherous coastlines and changing tidal patterns throughout the year. In those treacherous waters are general cargo boats and tankers, and there is even the threat of nuclear waste, as has been said. The thought of nuclear waste being transported down the west coast leaves me cold. The possibility of no emergency towing vessels being available horrifies me.
The need for such vessels was demonstrated clearly when two days after the announcement of the withdrawal of the vessels in 2011, the ship-towing vessel based at Stornoway was sent to the aid of a nuclear submarine, HMS Astute, which had run aground off Skye. We do not know whether Astute was carrying nuclear weapons—it is a moot point—but a nuclear sub colliding with the Isle of Skye was quite an incident. Who is to say such an event could not happen again? We need the security of an emergency towing vessel. I might add that the towing vessel would provide some security for us; a useless Trident nuclear submarine presents no security to the people of Scotland.
Where is the Government’s responsibility to my constituents—what will happen if there is another Braer, heaven forbid? We have learned that ETVs are not a statutory responsibility of the MCA and are not a budget priority. Even so, the MCA admits there is an increased risk if ETVs are not available. One almost could not make this up: there is acceptance of risk, but here is the rub, those of us in these far-off communities, well, we can take the risk—we are expendable. That is the message from this Government. Why should the Minister care? As a local MP, I care for my communities—I will fight for my communities—and I want the Government to take responsibility. What is the point of the MCA if such provision is not a statutory responsibility? Why will the Minister not make it a statutory responsibility?
Let me deal with the issue of vessels in the constituency of Ross, Skye and Lochaber. This wanton disregard for marine safety takes place at a time when the MCA is considering an application for ship-to-ship oil transfers in the Cromarty Firth. Here again, the Government seem to be coming up short in discharging their responsibilities to consult effectively and take environmental considerations seriously. It is environmental concerns that demonstrate the need for our marine safety to be taken seriously, and our communities need the comfort of knowing that emergency towing vessels are there as part of the Government’s responsibility.
The Scottish Government are responsible for marine safety yet, incredible as it sounds, we do not know whether Marine Scotland was consulted as part of the process. The application for the ship-to-ship transfer dated 5 November states that the MCA confirmed that the main consultees would be the local government authority, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency and Scottish Natural Heritage, with the appropriate wildlife non-governmental organisations. There was no mention of Marine Scotland. Why not?
That is why I tabled a question to the Minister dated 9 February, which was answered on 15 February, stating that Marine Scotland was consulted. I have not been able to clarify whether this was the case or not. Perhaps the Minister can do so this evening. Why was Marine Scotland not listed in the consultation document? Was it consulted? In the interests of transparency, will he publish any related correspondence?
I return to the clear need for ETVs both on the west coast of Scotland and in the north. I mentioned the Donaldson report from 1994. We also had the Belton report in 1995, which stated:
“Once a ship has irreparably broken down and is drifting towards the shore tugs represent the first and only line of defence.”
Well, that is pretty clear. We also need to examine the scale of the risk. The Minister has an issue with costs.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
I am pleased to see in this Parliament so many attending such a debate. In the previous Parliament, before SNP Members were so numerous, there would be very few Members at a debate such as this.
The UK Government are playing fast and loose because of an event that might happen once in 25 years, once in 50 years or once in 100 years. They have no insurance policy because they are a penny-wise, pound-foolish Government who are playing fast and loose with the Scottish coastline, which my hon. Friend and I represent and care about. If the UK Government respected Scotland and genuinely thought of the UK as a family of nations, they would step up to the mark now, instead of abdicating their responsibilities.
Ian Blackford
I thank my hon. Friend for that fine intervention. I look forward to hearing the Minister answering it, as we have not had an answer yet. Five of us went to see the Minister last November. We have been waiting quite some time for this Government to take their responsibilities seriously.
As I was saying, the Minister has an issue with costs. What the Government should be doing is looking imaginatively at making ETVs multifunctional in conjunction with other Government Departments to spread costs. There are many possibilities—for example, increased lighthouse dues, port dues or MCA inspection fees, as well as deploying the ETVs on other activities. Time does not allow a full exploration of potential revenue streams, but there are many opportunities for growing income.
In a letter to me and colleagues on 17 November last year, the MCA stated that there is no formal vessel traffic management system in the Northern and Western Isles region and that no mandatory reporting requirement exists in these areas. There is a voluntary reporting scheme. I find it remarkable that in this day and age we do not know what ships and what dangerous cargoes are afloat on our waters.
Be that as it may, the voluntary scheme showed that in the Northern Isles, the Pentland firth and the Fair Isle channel there were 81 tankers and 290 general cargo vessels over a 30-day period to 9 November last year. For the Minches and west of Lewis the respective figures were 66 tankers and 202 general cargo vessels. We are not talking about the odd cargo. As my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) said, whether it is a one-in-25-year or a one-in-50-year risk or even a one-in100-year risk, these are risks that we cannot afford to take. That raises the issue of a mandatory reporting scheme, because we need to know exactly how many vessels are in our waters. The numbers I have given suggest that my communities need the protection that ETVs offer.
The same letter from 17 November lists the towage provided in the Northern and Western Isles since 2011. It includes, for example, an incident on 19 March 2012, when the MN Flinterspirit ran aground off North Uist. There is no ETV in the Western Isles, so the Orkney-based vessel was deployed, and the MN Flinterspirit was refloated. A month later, the Orkney ETV went to the aid of a fishing vessel that was on fire 50 miles from Orkney. On 7 April 2014, it went to the aid of MV Norholm, which had broken down off Cape Wrath.
More recently, the Orkney ETV went to the scene of the grounding of the MV Lysblink Seaways at Kilchoan, in Ardnamurchan. Interestingly, the report I have states that the location was well outside the ETV’s operational area, so there we have it: the MCA itself accepts that the vehicle in Orkney was not ideally situated to give succour to constituents in Ardnamurchan. Let us just dwell on that: the MCA concedes that the distance from Orkney is too great to offer security. If there is one thing that demonstrates the need to maintain one ETV in Orkney serving the Northern Isles and one serving the west coast, that is it. Are we just to sit back and hope for the best, or will the Government meet their responsibilities and provide security for the marine environment and our coastal communities?
Mr MacNeil
My hon. Friend asks a pertinent question. He says we do not know what boats are going up the west coast of Scotland at the moment. Actually, looking at a marine traffic app, we can see that an 11,000-tonne oil and chemical tanker is going up there just now—it is between South Uist and my hon. Friend’s home in Skye. There is no insurance policy for that boat travelling through the Minches, because of the UK Government’s negligence. He makes a salient point when he says that we do not know what is going up the west coast; in fact, we do, but the point is that the UK Government do not, because they are not looking at these apps, and they are not worried, because this is Scotland.
Ian Blackford
It is too far from Westminster. Why should they care? However, my hon. Friend makes an important point. The vessel that ran aground at Ardnamurchan—the Lysblink Seaways—was a general cargo vessel. Can we just stop and think for a minute about what would have happened if an oil vessel had run aground at Ardnamurchan? We should just think about the environmental damage that could have happened. We should think about the threat to the tourist industry in Ardnamurchan—this is a fragile economy that depends on tourism. We cannot accept that risk. The Government have to act to protect communities up and down the west and north coast of Scotland.
On 7 May 2015, the MV Industrial Kennedy broke down 94 miles north-west of Shetland and was towed to Lerwick. That and the other incidents I mentioned are just some of those in which the Orkney ETV was deployed. From my information, it appears that the ETV was deployed on 13 occasions between November 2011 and November 2015. That is a significant number of incidents. More importantly, however, we should remember that these vessels are required as an insurance policy, as my hon. Friend said.
Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Ian Blackford
I am just going to wind up.
Incidentally, the Costa Concordia, which was involved in a grounding with calamitous consequences in Italy, was in Orkney just before it was deployed to Italy—yet another warning of the need for an ETV.
The costs associated with these vessels are insurance against the much more significant costs to society of an environmental disaster from, for example, a significant oil spill resulting from a tanker grounding along our coastline. Providing such vessels is a price we must all pay, and I ask the Minister to respond positively this evening.
Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)
First, I congratulate the hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) on securing this important debate and, indeed, on having the foresight to do so on a night when the main business in the Chamber collapsed early, which will allow a few other Members to contribute. I hope other hon. Members will have something to say, because the hon. Gentleman has explained at some length the importance of this issue to our island and coastal communities.
It was not a great surprise when we heard after the autumn statement that the provision of the emergency towing vessel was no longer a priority for the MCA and the Treasury, but it was an exceptionally short-sighted decision. The extent to which the MCA has been culpable in relation to the management of this resource—this is the point I was going to make the hon. Gentleman towards the end of his speech—is demonstrated not just by the fact that we now have only one ETV in Orkney, but by the fact that the MCA has been much more reluctant to task it in recent times. The hon. Gentleman referred to the MV Nordholm, which was a work boat from a fish farming company that was owned and operated by constituents of mine. I have been in contact with them and in correspondence with Sir Alan Massey about the incident. In essence, the boat was left with the lifeboat holding it off the rocks, and it was quite some time before the MCA could be persuaded to task the tug. That is illustrative of its attitude towards emergency towing vessels.
On 10 February, the MCA, to its credit—I use the term in the loosest possible sense—held a stakeholders event in Edinburgh at which it outlined its risk assessment. It was one of the most concerning explanations that I have heard from any Government Department or agency in my 14 and a half years as a Member of Parliament. First, its risk assessment was not done in accordance with the industry standards—that is, it was not done by people independent of the agency or a panel of people but by one person, who is an employee of the MCA. When we heard about the risks that it had assessed, we found that it had drilled down, at some length and in some detail, into the question of collision. In fact, because of the volume of traffic, collision in the Minch, Pentland firth, the Fair Isle channel and elsewhere in the Western Isles or Northern Isles has never really been a problem, so the MCA assessed a risk of something that has never happened in the past while ignoring the actual risks that have been encountered in everyday situations, some of which the hon. Gentleman touched on.
The MCA looked in detail at the traffic in the Minch and Pentland firth, which not exclusively but principally consists of ferry traffic. The ferries are good, modern, well maintained vessels which, by and large, tend not to go to sea when the conditions are particularly difficult or challenging. The MCA did not even look at the tanker traffic going through Yell sound into Sullum Voe in Shetland, so the oil tankers going into Shetland that formed the basis of the need for the ETVs in the first place were not part of its risk assessment. It was a seriously deficient piece of work. For all its apparent deficiencies, it still concluded that removing Herakles, the ETV that is currently stationed there, would leave the north and north-western waters of Scotland exposed to unacceptable levels of risk. The MCA then went on to speak about the availability of alternatives. It was pretty well apparent from the discussion that followed on 10 February that it does not see where these alternatives are going to come from.
All this comes a mere seven weeks before the contract is going to end on 31 March. This is all work that, if the MCA was serious about discharging its responsibilities with regard to maritime safety, should have been done before it was prepared to offer up the removal of the ETV in the comprehensive spending review, but it was not done. Frankly, we are left with a mess. It is not the Minister’s fault—the fault clearly lies in Southampton with the MCA—but it is his responsibility. I do not see how it can possibly be fixed between now and 31 March. Apparently we will go back to Edinburgh on 4 March, so we will hear what the MCA has to say at that point. Frankly, however, given the parameters it outlined to us on 10 February, I do not think we will hear anything new.
If nothing else, will the Minister please offer us a little more breathing space so that the work that should have been done thus far can be done? It would be criminally irresponsible for the Government to allow the contract to lapse on 31 March and for there to be no coverage thereafter. Concerns have been raised not just by different industries but by local authorities. If the Minister is prepared to offer us a bit more time, I hope he will agree to meet me, parliamentary colleagues and the local authorities of the Highland region, the Western Isles, Orkney and Shetland, which made that direct request of the MCA on 10 February. Perhaps he will tell us whether he is prepared to do that and, even better, to hold that meeting on the isles or in the north of Scotland.
Breathing space would give us the opportunity to look again at how the contract has operated in the past. It is an expensive contract—we know that—but it is worth paying for. Given the volume of work available to tugs with the required bollard pull capacity, there is an opportunity to get a good deal for the Government and the taxpayer. The chair of the tug operators association was present at the session on 10 February, and he openly said that it was possible to secure a price for a contract that could run for five, 10 or even 15 years. That would provide good value for money and give our island and coastal communities the knowledge that we had provision and that we would not just be living from one comprehensive spending review to the next.
The hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber reminded us of the genesis of the tug provision, which came about as a result of the 1995 Donaldson report. The Braer ran aground off Quendale in Shetland in 1992, and I was still dealing with the long tail of resulting cases when I was first elected here nine years later in 2001. It is no exaggeration to say that the lives of hundreds, possibly thousands, of people in Shetland were changed forever the night the Braer ran aground. We talk about the impact on the industries and about the economic and environmental impact, and that is absolutely true, but the human impact of such an event is absolutely phenomenal, and I just do not know how we can put a price on that.
I have seen what happens if such things are not taken seriously and are allowed to happen again. That is what happened in Galicia in the north-west corner of Spain. When the Prestige ran aground there, it was the second major oil spill in that area in 10 years. I remember visiting the area as a newly elected MP in 2002 and being absolutely horrified by the post-traumatic effect on communities that had been blighted not just once but twice.
Given the location, geography, history and background of the communities under discussion, they are among the most precious and fragile in our country. That is why, as the hon. Gentleman said, it would be unacceptable to leave them exposed to further risk in the way currently proposed.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) on securing this debate on the subject of ETVs. Only the Department for Transport could come up with a three-letter acronym for a three-letter word—tug. Let me be clear from the start that I share the hon. Gentleman’s passion for protecting the Scottish coast. The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) said that I did not care about Scotland. I assure him that Scotland is every bit as much part of my country as is Yorkshire or any other part. I do care for the environment around Scotland and for the welfare of seamen on that part of our seas.
Mr MacNeil
I am grateful to the Minister for mentioning me and for giving way, as is the convention in the House. Will we see his concern and his fine words manifested not only in the retention of the ETV in the Northern Isles, but in the return of the ETV to Stornoway, in the Hebrides?
Mr Goodwill
Let me develop my argument, and I will return to that point. Scotland is not only a stunning landscape but the home of important industries such as agriculture and fishing, which are economically important to Scotland and the whole United Kingdom. Protecting the environment and safety at sea are our top priorities. The hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber mentioned the Cromarty firth oil transfer licence. Marine Scotland was directly consulted on 10 December, and on 8 February, when the consultation ended, it had not responded. When it was asked whether it intended to respond, the answer was no. I hope that that clarifies that point.
Shipping has a good safety record, but we must guard against complacency, because incidents happen. The last major environmental tragedy to befall the Scottish coast was the loss of the oil tanker Braer in the early ’90s. We are very lucky that because of the seascape, much of the oil was dispersed. As a member of the European Parliament Committee on the Environment, Public Health and Food Safety, I, like the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael), visited the Galicia area and saw some of the devastation caused to the beaches, the marine environment and the marine ecosystem by the heavy oil. The oil clogged up the beaches, and it was heartbreaking to see the seabirds that were affected by it.
That was 23 years ago, and it is to the credit of the shipping industry and the skills of its seafarers that we have not had an incident on the same scale since. As we have heard, the late Lord Donaldson of Lymington conducted an extensive review of safety after the Braer incident. His report, “Safer Ships, Cleaner Seas”, was published in May 1994. It is easy to select quotes from Lord Donaldson’s excellent report. He recommended that the Government set up a system to ensure that tugs with adequate salvage capacity were available at key points around the UK’s coast. He also said that salvage was, and should remain, a primarily private sector service. That is, of course, what happens around the UK’s coast, with the exception of Scotland. The shipping industry pays directly for towage where it is required, at no cost to the public. Lord Donaldson was equally clear that the costs of pollution prevention should be met by potential polluters rather than by the Government and the public.
Mr MacNeil
The Minister’s arguments are all well and good if there are tug boats available to do that work, but what if there are no tug boats available? Where coastal communities and our coastline are at risk, a responsible Government would make sure that that capacity was there where the market and the private sector were failing. The market and the private sector are failing in that on the north and west coast of Scotland. My hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) has secured the debate because of that failure and the lack of those boats.
Mr Goodwill
If the hon. Gentleman will relax a little, I will come on to some of those points. He might find that he need not be quite as irate as he is, because I share his concerns.
The world has moved on in the more than 20 years since Lord Donaldson wrote his report, and shipping safety has moved on, too. We have seen the introduction of the new global maritime distress and safety system, electronic charts, bridge watch systems, integrated bridge navigation systems, automatic identification systems, better standards of training for seafarers, improved and more reliable ship propulsion and engine systems, and the international safety management quality code. Those have all added to the tools available to support safer navigation practice.
Ian Blackford
I agree with the Minister’s points about the improvements that have taken place, but they would still not prevent things such as the Lysblink Seaways, which ran aground on Ardnamurchan, or indeed the Costa Concordia. That is the point. Even with the improvements that have been made, there is still a risk to our communities from something like that happening —an unexpected happening, such as an oil tanker running aground. This is about how we provide such protection, even with the improvements that have taken place in the shipping industry.
Mr Goodwill
The hon. Gentleman’s point is absolutely valid. I am talking about some of the other vessels that we have been able to remove from around the coast because of other factors.
There is improved automatic monitoring of ship movements from the shore, both by Her Majesty’s Coastguard and by port authorities. That is why we felt it was right in 2011 to decide to withdraw the Government-funded tugs operating in the Dover strait and in the south-west approaches off Falmouth. The savings were substantial. Withdrawing the ETVs elsewhere in the UK saved the public purse approximately £32.5 million over the last spending review period. The ETV based in Orkney in the Northern Isles is funded until 31 March, at a cost of roughly £2 million to £3 million per year.
The availability of commercial tug and salvage operations in such areas persuaded us that it was no longer appropriate for the UK taxpayer to fund that provision. That decision has been borne out by the fact that commercial tows have provided assistance where that has been necessary. However, we recognised that the picture was different on the Scottish coast, where there is a lack of larger commercial tugs. One Government-funded tug has been retained since then, based at Kirkwall in the Orkneys, and can operate both to the north and to the west.
The positioning of the ETV was carefully considered and was based on the density of shipping across the Northern and Western Isles region, notably of tanker vessels; the availability of shelter during inclement weather; and the ready availability of effective logistics support. On balance, the density of shipping, particularly of tanker vessels, carried the greatest weight and predicated the stationing of the tug in and around the Orkney Islands. That provision costs the taxpayer between £2 million and £3 million annually, as I have mentioned.
Since its retention in 2011, the emergency towing vessel Herakles has been used to offer a tow just four times. The tug has been asked to stand by and ready itself for potential towage on other occasions purely as a precautionary measure. At no time has any ship needing a commercial tow failed to secure one, nor has there been any occurrence of pollution within the marine environment through a lack of a timely and effective towing service. It is therefore right that we consider whether it is appropriate for the UK taxpayer to continue to fund that provision. We have not included the provision in our current spending plans.
Mr MacNeil
In fairness to the Minister he is genuinely allowing us to have an exchange of views. However, I find his argument akin to saying, “My house was built in 1906 and it has not been on fire since, and therefore I do not need fire insurance for my house.” The reality is—this is the point made by the hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber in this debate—that we should have an insurance policy. The Minister is telling me that, no matter the age of my house, I do not need insurance for my house—or, in this case, coastal insurance. In that, the UK Government have been found short and very wanting.
Mr Goodwill
The hon. Gentleman is quite correct to raise the issue of risk. The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland talked about the MCA looking at all potential risks. Indeed, the risk assessment by the MCA looked at all factors, including mechanical failure, collision risk, traffic volumes and the weather, including the very severe weather that can affect that part of the world. The stakeholder meeting on 10 February scrutinised the risk assessment, and all parties agreed with the assessment, including the fact that risk levels increase without ETV provision. The MCA will carry out further refinement of the risk assessment in the light of stakeholder discussions.
Ian Blackford
I am listening very carefully to the hon. Gentleman, who is being very considerate with his time. He is identifying that there is a risk from the removal of the ETV. We already know that a grounding has taken place at Ardnamurchan. We already know that the MCA has referred to the time it took to travel to that vessel. The Orkney vessel cannot provide that degree of protection in a timely manner on the west coast. To give security to our community, we need to retain the insurance cover that many of us have mentioned. We need the vessel in Orkney, but we desperately need the vessel on the west coast. What will the Minister say if we end up with an incident at some point in the future—heaven forbid—if we could have had such an ETV to give us at least a degree of protection. That is the price we are asking the Government to pay tonight.
Mr Goodwill
I have made the point that the one vessel we have is best stationed where it is because of the risk and the type of traffic to which it can respond.
We have not made a final decision on whether this provision should continue. I have asked the MCA to consult all interested parties on two questions. First, what is the shared view on the risk of pollution off the coast of Scotland and how has that changed since 2011?
Mr Goodwill
The second question is what alternative arrangements are available to maintain an appropriate towage capability that could reduce the burden on the UK taxpayer.
As we have heard, the MCA held its first consultative meeting in Edinburgh on 10 February. It was attended by the agency’s chief executive, Sir Alan Massey, which demonstrates the priority the Government give to this matter. I was delighted to hear that the engagement of stakeholders and interested parties was positive and constructive.
In refining the risk assessment, there are many factors to take into account, including the density of shipping, the variety of cargoes, the size of today’s ships, the scenarios in which ships may get into difficulty and, of course, the picture of available tugs and salvage solutions. The MCA’s officials have gathered a great deal of additional information to add to their understanding of the current risk. It is clear, however, that the overall risk picture is similar to how it looked in 2011, when the decision was taken to retain one Government-funded tug.
Roger Mullin (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
I did not intend to speak in this debate, but I have heard the Government talk about risk on so many occasions and it strikes me that they are being very badly briefed, because they do not seem to understand what risk means. At the very simplest, two components are being misunderstood. The first is the probability of an event occurring. To follow what my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) said, even if something might happen only once every 50 years, it could happen next week. It does not mean that we will have to wait 50 years for it to occur.
The second point, on which very little has been said, is that we must take account of the nature of the negative outcome. I would argue, as have many people, that because of the nature of shipping today and the types of cargo that are being moved, such as waste, the catastrophic nature of the negative outcome is greater than it would have been 20 or 30 years—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Natascha Engel)
Order. I know that the hon. Gentleman said that he was not going to make a speech, but if he kept his interventions a bit shorter, we would all be very grateful.
Mr Goodwill
I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that the Government are acutely aware of the risk and the damage that could be caused to the environment or, indeed, the loss of life that could occur if that risk is not correctly assessed and the response correctly put in place.
The meeting on 10 February started to explore whether there might be alternative ways to provide a tug capability. Another meeting with stakeholders is scheduled for Edinburgh on 9 March. We may find that a longer-term solution rests not on one approach, but on a combination of options. I want to give the MCA time and space to work through all reasonable options with the stake- holders to find a longer-term solution. That considered thought and the development of expert advice simply cannot be achieved before the current funding ends on 31 March.
I can therefore announce to the House that I have instructed the MCA to make immediate arrangements to extend the provision of a Government-funded emergency towing vessel to mirror the current arrangement until 30 September this year. I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland for making the case for that in such a positive way. The MCA and my Department will find the money for the additional provision from any underspend across our budgets. This is not additional expenditure.
Mr Alistair Carmichael
The Minister is to be congratulated on this announcement. It is clearly not the end of the story, but it is a significant act of good faith. I thank him for taking this step this evening. Will he take away from the House the message that came from the stakeholder engagement meeting on 10 February, which was that this work has to be done again and it has to be done properly? The standard and content of the risk assessment is not good enough. He has given us time. Will that time be used to do the work properly?
Mr Goodwill
I have already made the point that the level of risk has not changed substantially since previous assessments, but we do need to explore other ways in which that risk could be addressed. The point was made about the availability of tugs because, sadly, of the demise of the North sea oil industry and other areas where we may be able to come up with something more cost-effective.
Ian Blackford
We welcome the announcement the Government have made this evening. That is the right thing to do. What I would say to the Minister, however, is that we explained what happened in Ardnamurchan. The ETV cannot get from Orkney in a reasonable time. In the light of the decision the Minister has made this evening and of the risk assessment that must take place, will he revisit the need and desire for a second vessel based in Stornoway to cover the west coast, based on a realistic understanding of risk as outlined by me, my hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Roger Mullin) and others? We cannot accept that our communities should be left at risk. This is a small price to pay. We need that insurance policy. I am grateful that the Orkney vessel is being kept on for the next six months, but please let us make sure we get a solution that protects all our communities. That means the re-establishment of a two-vessel solution for the north and the west of Scotland.
Mr Goodwill
I certainly hear what the hon. Gentleman says. The provision of the ETV and the steaming times to get to certain locations where it may be needed is something we need to address. I urge all those with an interest to seize the opportunity this extra time brings to work with the MCA to implement a longer term strategy to meet this need. I hope right hon. and hon. Members will give their encouragement for that.
As I have said in response to questions from hon. Members, the Government recognise the importance of ensuring shipping activities off the coast of Scotland remain safe.
Mr MacNeil
I am very grateful for the Government U-turn, although it is only for six months. We have concentrated a lot on pollution, but two months ago the cruise ship Star Pride ran aground at 6.15 am on 22 December near Isla de Coiba, Panama. In such a situation many lives are in peril. Luckily, the climate was better there. There is increased cruise traffic off the west coast of Scotland. Where are the tug boats or the security to ensure that such a situation would not turn into a human catastrophe? We talk about environmental catastrophes, but we have to be aware of human catastrophes. The Government are making a U-turn, but I hope that they carry on steaming further south and think of the Hebrides and the west coast too.
Mr Goodwill
I have already made it very clear that we have two considerations in terms of the marine environment and pollution, particularly from vessels carrying oil, but there is also the potential loss of life from vessels that cannot receive timely assistance.
I will make a final decision about whether it is right for the UK taxpayer to continue funding the emergency towing vessel provision in the light of the MCA’s advice before the end of September. We look forward to colleagues giving evidence and giving their views on that consideration. I will, of course, be consulting Scottish Ministers on those options before a final decision is made. As I have said, I am happy to meet island councils to hear their ideas for the future. Indeed, I look forward to travelling north, if the diary allows and now there will be a bit more daylight up there, to visit some of the locations and hear at first hand from people on the ground.
Question put and agreed to.
Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun Freezing Order 2016
(8 years, 2 months ago)
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The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Harriett Baldwin)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun Freezing Order 2016 (S.I. 2016, No. 67).
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard. I would like to make the Committee aware that some minor errors were made when the order was laid; they did not impact on the substance of the order and have now been corrected by way of a correction slip.
The order was laid before the House on 22 January, in response to the Litvinenko inquiry report published on 21 January. As Members will be aware, Alexander Litvinenko was a former officer of the Russian Federal Security Service and a British citizen. He was killed in London in 2006, and the Litvinenko inquiry was the independent inquiry into his death. I am sure Members will echo my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary’s thanks to Sir Robert Owen, the chairman of the inquiry. His conclusions were clear yet deeply disturbing, and I would like to highlight some of those conclusions today, as they provide essential background to this debate.
One of the inquiry’s key findings was that Mr Litvinenko was deliberately poisoned by two Russian nationals: Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun. Those individuals killed him using polonium-210, a radioactive isotope. The Litvinenko inquiry also found that the killing of Mr Litvinenko was probably authorised by Nikolai Patrushev, head of the Russian Federal Security Service at the time, and by President Putin.
In response to those conclusions, the Treasury imposed an asset freeze on Mr Lugovoy and Mr Kovtun, the two individuals directly implicated in Mr Litvinenko’s tragic death. That was done by making an order under the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001. The order was debated in the other place on 10 February. I would like to set out again why that was an appropriate and proportionate response and why this House should also approve the order.
The Metropolitan police launched a murder investigation shortly following Mr Litvinenko’s death. Mr Lugovoy and Mr Kovtun are the prime suspects in that investigation. The Crown Prosecution Service has sought extradition of the chief suspect, Mr Lugovoy, from Russia, but Russia has consistently refused to comply with that request. There are now Interpol notices and European arrest warrants against them, and the Metropolitan police investigation is still open.
However, in response to Sir Robert Owen’s unequivocal finding that Mr Lugovoy and Mr Kovtun killed Mr Litvinenko, the Government took the view that it was appropriate to take further steps. That is why the Home Secretary wrote to the independent Director of Public Prosecutions, asking her to consider whether further action could be taken. That is also why, following the inquiry’s report, the Treasury moved swiftly to impose an asset freeze on the two individuals responsible for Mr Litvinenko’s death. The Treasury was satisfied that Mr Lugovoy’s and Mr Kovtun’s roles in Mr Litvinenko’s death clearly fulfilled the criteria under the 2001 Act that give the Treasury powers, including making a freezing order, when a threat to the life of a UK national has been or is likely to be taken by non-UK residents.
We believe that the order will be a deterrent and a signal that this Government will not tolerate such activity on British soil. The asset freeze prohibits UK persons from making funds available to Mr Lugovoy and Mr Kovtun and denies the men access to the UK financial system. In circumstances where it is necessary for frozen funds to be used, those wishing to do so must seek a licence from the Treasury.
I am sure all hon. Members will agree that the ideal response to the killing of a British citizen on the streets of London is to bring those responsible to trial in a British court. However, until that can be done, the asset freeze, together with the other measures that the Government have already taken, sends a clear message that we will defend our national security and rule of law.
Some people responded to the inquiry’s conclusions with calls for us to radically reform our relationship with Russia, yet as the Home Secretary set out, the findings of the report do not come as a surprise. Indeed, the roles of Mr Lugovoy and Mr Kovtun and the probable involvement of the Russian state are consistent with the long-held assessments of successive UK Governments. Those assessments informed the response by the then Government in 2007, which included visa restrictions and the expulsion of certain officials from the Russian embassy in London. The conclusions of the inquiry confirm that successive Governments have been right to keep those measures in force to date.
This is not business as usual with Russia; our relationship with the Russian state is heavily conditioned. The Government have reinforced that message. Following the publication of the inquiry’s report, we made very clear to the Moscow Government our profound concerns, and the Russian ambassador was summoned to the Foreign Office in London. We will continue to demand that the Russian Government do more to co-operate with the investigation into Mr Litvinenko’s death. Such co-operation must include the extradition of the main suspects and the provision of satisfactory answers, and Russia must account for the role of its security services.
We are clear about the wider threats that Russia poses, which the Government have outlined in the national security strategy. In particular, we have long been aware of Russia’s disregard for international norms and principles, which is why we led the call in the EU for sanctions in relation to Russia’s actions in Crimea and eastern Ukraine. That is why, when we engage with Russia on a variety of issues, including the fight against Daesh, we do so guardedly and with our eyes wide open.
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister is making a strong case for the order, which I completely support. She mentioned the EU and political co-operation on targeting some of Russia’s behaviour in Europe, but the order refers to actions on European economic area firms and relevant institutions. Will she explain how we are going to co-operate across Europe to deal with these two individuals and prevent them from behaving as they have been throughout Europe, not just in the UK?
Harriett Baldwin
My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has written to her counterparts in all 27 EU member states, so that they are also aware of the conclusions in this important report and are able take action accordingly should these gentlemen appear in their jurisdictions.
I hope that my words have assured the Committee that the asset freeze imposed on Mr Lugovoy and Mr Kovtun is an appropriate and proportionate response to their role in Alexander Litvinenko’s death. The Government believe that, in addition to the steps taken in 2007, the order is a proportionate measure that is necessary to send a clear message to those who might wish to undertake similar acts in future. I commend the order to the Committee and hope that all Members support the motion.
Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard.
As the Minister has outlined, the purpose of the measure is to establish a freezing order that prohibits persons from making funds available to or for the benefit of Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun. The Home Secretary stated her intention to pursue this course of action in her statement on 21 January in response to the publication of Sir Robert Owen’s report into the death of Alexander Litvinenko in 2006. Members will recall that the report clearly set out Sir Robert Owen’s conclusion that he is sure that Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun were responsible for the death of a British citizen, Alexander Litvinenko. It also set out his finding that the death was probably sanctioned by the Russian state at its highest level.
When the Home Secretary set out her response to the report on 21 January, the shadow Home Secretary expressed the Opposition’s support for her statement. He also asked a number of questions, as did my colleague, Lord Tunnicliffe, when the order was discussed in the other place just before the recess. I therefore have fewer questions about the specifics of the measure and how the order relates to what the Home Secretary said last month than might otherwise have been the case.
The Home Secretary made reference to extra resources for security agencies and the Investigatory Powers Bill, and to points relating to the national security strategy and strategic defence and security review, on which I do not wish to comment in this debate. When responding to the statement, a number of Members discussed the kind of pressure that the Government’s response to Sir Robert Owen’s findings would put on the Russian authorities.
In the discussions of the freezing order, the Minister in the other place confirmed that it will lapse two years after it was made, as set out in section 8 of the Crime and Security Act 2001. He said that the Government will continue to monitor the evidence and, if the order is still in force after two years, consider at that point whether it is necessary and proportionate to make a new order. Will the Minister set out what the expected impact of the freezing order will be in assisting the Government in reaching their goals? How will that impact be monitored?
The Minister in the other place also stated that the Home Secretary was considering the names of individuals, on a list supplied by Mrs Litvinenko’s lawyers, who Mrs Litvinenko felt should have further action taken against them and who are not already subject to Government sanction. Will the Minister say whether it is likely that further freezing orders will be proposed in relation to other individuals? Is consideration ongoing on that? If so, how long should it take to reach a decision?
In the other place, my colleague also highlighted, as mentioned in the order’s explanatory notes, the risks relating to asset flight. I do not believe that the Minister on that occasion replied to that point, so, for the purposes of the record, will the Minister say any more about what assets are being frozen and whether there has been any suggestion of asset flight since 21 January, when Sir Robert’s report was published, and noon on 22 January, from which time the order retrospectively applies?
I appreciate that the Minister may not be able to answer all those points and she may have to consult her colleagues in the Home Office on some of them. If that is the case, I would appreciate it if she wrote to me. The far-reaching implications of the report’s findings cannot be overstated. More work, which may include further asset freezing, clearly needs to be done to deliver justice. I reiterate that the Opposition are committed to working with the Government to bring that about. We support the order.
Harriett Baldwin
I am grateful to the Opposition for their support. They rightly asked a range of questions that I will be happy to update them on.
The hon. Member for Leeds East asked about the order’s impact. I think its primary impact is to send a strong message to deter people from taking such steps on UK soil. The specific impact of the freezing order is to prohibit UK persons from making funds available to the two gentlemen named in the order. The order effectively freezes any assets that individuals hold in the UK, or any UK-incorporated entities. It also prevents them from any effective links with the UK financial system.
In terms of the duration of the order, the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that it lasts for two years and it will be subject to potential renewal at that point. He also asked whether there is any evidence of asset flight. So far we have not received any reports from the financial sector about funds frozen under the order or about movement of funds immediately before its implementation.
The hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth asked about other related matters concerning the EU. It is probably worth highlighting that EU sanctions related to action in eastern Ukraine cover almost 150 individuals.
The hon. Member for Leeds East asked about the letter that Mrs Litvinenko sent to the Home Secretary asking whether she will consider extending such measures to other individuals. I can confirm that, at this point, the Government have not responded to Mrs Litvinenko’s letter. The Home Secretary met Mrs Litvinenko with the Foreign Office Minister and her legal advisers on 28 January, and she is now giving detailed consideration to the issues raised in Mrs Litvinenko’s letter. I anticipate that she will respond soon, but I do not have a precise date for that.
I think I have answered all the hon. Gentleman’s questions. I am glad that everyone here seems to support our case for imposing the order. Until such time as the individuals responsible for Mr Litvinenko’s death are brought to justice, freezing their assets sends a clear signal about how profoundly we disapprove of their actions. I believe that we met both the tests required under the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 in introducing this order. I am grateful for hon. Members’ constructive engagement with this matter. I commend the order to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
DRAFT REGISTER OF PEOPLE WITH SIGNIFICANT CONTROL REGULATIONS 2016
DRAFT LIMITED LIABILITY PARTNERSHIPS (REGISTER OF PEOPLE WITH SIGNIFICANT CONTROL) REGULATIONS 2016
(8 years, 2 months ago)
General CommitteesRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Minister for Small Business, Industry and Enterprise (Anna Soubry)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Register of People with Significant Control Regulations 2016.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to consider the draft Limited Liability Partnerships (Register of People with Significant Control) Regulations 2016.
Anna Soubry
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. This area is covered by an uncontentious Act of the previous Government. There was much collaboration and co-operation between both sides and an important part of the legislation is now being introduced through regulations. I will not go into all the detail. My officials have kindly provided me with a speech that might, with a fair wind behind me, take me 15 minutes to read. In any event, the regulations are clear about what they set up and why. I want to deal with why the regulations are now before us. In 2013, the Prime Minister set out the UK’s ambition to improve corporate transparency and tackle criminal abuse of UK corporate entities. The regulations, which I am pleased we are considering today, underpin the detail of the register of people with significant control and bring that ambition one step closer to reality.
The register is the central pillar of the United Kingdom’s ambition to increase the transparency of UK corporate entities. It will record the people who own and control UK companies, limited liability partnerships and societates Europaeae—a little-used pan-European form of company. Information about the ownership and control of UK corporate entities will bring benefits for law enforcement, business, civil society and citizens. By making such information publicly available, free of charge, via a central register, the Government are setting the standard for open government that we are encouraging international partners to follow. It was therefore gratifying to see that the Dutch Government recently announced their intention to make public their beneficial ownership register.
The register of people with significant control, or PSC register, will record the details of those who own or control UK companies. There are five conditions for being a PSC: an individual holds, directly or indirectly, more than 25% of a company’s shares; an individual holds, directly or indirectly, more than 25% of the voting rights in a company; an individual holds the right, directly or indirectly, to appoint the majority of the board of directors; an individual has the right to exercise, or actually exercises, significant influence or control over a company; and, finally, the trustees of a trust or the members of a firm that is not a legal person would meet one of the first four conditions in relation to a company, or would do so if they were individuals, and have the right to exercise, or actually exercise, significant influence or control over the activities of the trust or the firm.
The regulations set out the detailed requirements for the PSC register and are self-explanatory, so, as I said, I will not go into the details. In short, they set out the scope of the register, the fees that a company can charge for providing copies of its own register, the information to be included on the register, the contents of warning and restriction notices, and how the protection regime will work for PSCs at risk of harm through their information being made public. The limited liability partnership regulations, or LLP regulations, apply the provisions contained in part 21A of the Companies Act 2006 and the companies regulations to limited liability partnerships with appropriate modifications.
Rather than going into all the details, I will happily take questions and answer them as best I can. The regulations are an invaluable part of improving corporate transparency in the United Kingdom.
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
My right hon. Friend says that she will answer questions, so I will get mine in early. Do these regulations come under the one-in, two-out rule for regulation, and can she give some advice on what the consequential changes to other regulation will be when she sums up the debate?
Anna Soubry
Of course I undertake to answer my hon. Friend’s question. As he will know, with all regulation we are absolutely determined—and indeed we do this—to check the cost, if any, to business and to mitigate it in any way we can; and in any event we have as an overarching principle the absolute determination to cut red tape and to reduce bureaucracy and regulation as much as we can.
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend also set out what the penalties will be? Will there be a sliding scale depending on the size of the company? We so often see with these kinds of regulations that the penalties can be meaningless, so it would be interesting to hear more on that.
Anna Soubry
Of course I will also answer that question when I sum up the debate. If there are any more questions, I will be more than happy to take them. If not, that is all I will say. I will listen, of course, to the hon. Member for Cardiff West.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
Government Members have anticipated a couple of the questions that I had planned to ask, so for the sake of brevity I will not repeat them; I know that the Minister will want to answer them.
These measures are about improving trust in UK companies—an aim that we share across the Committee. As the Minister rightly said at the outset, they have their genesis in some of the work of the previous Government; it has attracted cross-party support. They apply a new requirement in relation to different business forms. The requirement is aimed at increasing the transparency of the ownership of companies, and it will have most impact on unlisted companies. Obviously, the measures also have a basis in the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015—the Bill was broadly supported by both sides of the House when it was discussed last year. In general, there has been little criticism of these measures outside the House and, broadly speaking, the Opposition are content to support the Government today and not to oppose the measures should there be a Division.
There has been an indication that some groups—perhaps trustees, for example—have a lower awareness of the requirements than might be hoped. Can the Minister say something about how awareness of the requirements under these provisions will be made more widespread? Is there a plan in place to ensure that there is greater awareness of what is being proposed today?
Clearly, much of this work is the result of disquiet about anonymous owners of companies and their actions. That can operate on many levels; it ranges from concern in the Government about connections between companies and terrorist groups, for example, to people who fear for their jobs as shadowy funds try to buy their company, and to local worries about who is buying up a town’s offices and shops. Transparency around all these issues is therefore very important, which is why, broadly speaking, the Opposition are content to support what the Government are doing today.
I note that in this area the biggest opposition seems to have come from the British Bankers Association and the British Private Equity & Venture Capital Association. What is the Minister’s view of their objections that all of this might be a time-consuming process that interferes with enterprise? The British Bankers Association also has concerns about the dangers of public access to the proposed register. As I said, we intend to support the measures, but we look forward to hearing the Minister’s answers to our questions and to any questions that her hon. Friends might have.
Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. I strongly welcome the regulations, but I do not want us to get too carried away in thinking that this is the end of the process or the answer to all our questions. It is a welcome baby step, but the problems we face are enormous. I am sure that the Minister will underline how serious a longer term effort is, particularly when it comes to transparency.
The Prime Minister referred to transparency in his 2013 remarks about the abuse of company power, and we need to stay vigilant. We are very much at the penny farthing end of legislative regulation while the enemy—if I can put it that way—is at the cutting edge of digital technology. Our attempts to run after some of the problems are forlorn and sometimes quite pathetic, so we need to continue to be as serious as we can on a number of these issues.
International co-operation is key. Perhaps I am mirroring some of the debate that is happening at this very moment about whether we should be in or out of the European Union. The question whether we should be in or out of European and, indeed, international co-operation surely unites the Committee, because we have to work together. It is absolutely pointless if one nation—even our own—regulates at a particular level and is then perhaps joined by the Dutch but by very few others; international capital and international companies can move swiftly and defeat the efforts of even the best domestic regulators.
Looking at that level is important because the regulations apply only to UK-registered companies, and companies have been known to switch their base of operations. There have been clear examples recently of companies avoiding tax by moving their base and their tax designation. We need to develop an international level of regulation, so that people cannot evade due process. In taxation that is very clear; whether it is Google or Starbucks, that level of interaction and co-operation is needed, and that is relevant to the regulations.
At the European level, we are seeing some small steps. However, perhaps there is an argument for those who are arguing to be outers today—I do not know whether we need a show of hands to see who in the Committee is an outer and who is an inner. If the European Union is yet to deliver a directive, that might give strength to the outers. It is yet to finalise its proposals, which apparently will be the fourth money laundering directive—clearly the first three were not as effective as we might have liked—and they might be launched in the near future. The Minister might know better than I do, but the directive was kicked off way back in 2013.
However, at the global level there seems to be very little progress indeed. The sub-prime crash seems many moons ago, but have we learnt the lessons of that? Is the regulation in place on a European and an international basis? Despite the devastating consequences in all our constituencies, progress has been very, very slow. I suspect that it will also be very, very slow when we discuss taxation internationally and it may well be very, very slow in terms of transparency internationally, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West said.
I understand that British bankers and British venture capitalists constantly send letters to the Minister talking about the administrative burden and how difficult it is to actually figure out who owns 25% of any given company. What absolute nonsense. I hope that she will dismiss that, as she has done in bringing forward the regulation. We should show the legislative door to the idea that, in this day and age, we might use what was called, under the previous Labour Government, a “light touch” on the regulations, because it can be a matter of such significance when we cannot find out who owns and manages companies.
In essence, I am suggesting that all companies, no matter where they are registered, should have to publish a list of people who have a significant say in the running of their businesses. It is important for transparency and taxation and so that we know—so that everyone knows—where big money is going and who controls it. International capital has an important say in, and sway over, what can happen in domestic economies—far greater than at any point in our history. I therefore hope that the Minister will listen to the comments and be able to respond that today we are not at the end of the process, but just at the beginning.
Anna Soubry
Perhaps I may begin by answering the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford. The regulations were out of scope because they were an international requirement, so the one in, two out principle did not apply to them. We had international obligations.
I am sure my hon. Friend will be interested to know that the final state impact assessment estimated the costs as a net cost to business per year of £97.5 million. Over 10 years it is £1,086.2 million, so it is not exactly small. What will please my hon. Friend, however, is that that final assessment also found that there would be a cost of £10 to small simple companies in relation to updating beneficial ownership information annually and, of course, £10 in relation to providing information to the central register annually. The good news is that for the smaller businesses the amount of money involved is very small. It has been argued, and I would argue, that it is well worth paying because of the importance of making sure that we tackle the problem.
Kevin Brennan
I think I heard the figure that the Minister used then, but the impact assessment documents for the two sets of regulations state that the net cost to business in relation to the PSC register would be £10.09 million per year, and that the net cost to business per year in relation to the other one would be £4.7 million per year—both on 2014 prices. I think she gave a considerably higher figure, so I wonder whether she could explain the difference.
Anna Soubry
I am afraid I cannot. I would be delighted if the figure that I had been given is wrong and the one that the hon. Gentleman has is correct. One thing that is for sure is that if I am wrong—if the figure I have been given is incorrect, as I hope it is—I will happily write to all members of the Committee to correct that. If the hon. Gentleman is right, that will be good news all round. Obviously, we are determined to make sure we keep the cost as low as possible. The regulations are serious and important, with the aim of tackling a genuine problem; it is sometimes a mark of their seriousness that such things cost money. However, I will sort that matter out.
Richard Fuller
Of course the Minister will come back with the answer, and I very much appreciate that. However, the Government’s objective over the next five years is to reduce the burden of regulation by £10 billion. So if the figure is close to the Minister’s number, and the matter is out of scope, it rather calls into question the veracity of the Government’s deregulation agenda. If we can have an extra £1 billion of regulation that is out of scope, while we are trying to get rid of £10 billion, that seems a matter of concern. Can the Minister assure the Committee that she will not only validate the number but consider the issue of what is in scope or out of scope about the regulations, and perhaps give us some advice on that?
Anna Soubry
I think the best thing I can do, although I am always happy to talk to my hon. Friend, is to write to him in more detail. We have saved a huge amount of money—around £5 billion—for businesses over the past five years through deregulation, and it is now accepted that we are one of the best places in the world to do business, specifically because we do not over-regulate in the way that we did. We have made huge strides. There is more to be done in the next five years, but we have made enormous progress, which is now being recognised. When I meet smaller businesses and, notably, the Federation of Small Businesses, they do not complain as they used to about the amount of regulation, but it is absolutely accepted that more can be done.
On the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes, I am told that the Act introduced robust penalties to deter and sanction those who seek to misuse UK companies. Those penalties will, of course, support law enforcement tax authorities’ existing powers of investigation. The details, if I may be so bold, are in the Act, but if she would like me to point to them, I am more than happy to do so. However, as I have said from the outset, this is a serious piece of work due to the nature of the threat to the security of our nation, particularly in the business sector.
I agree with some of what the hon. Member for Nottingham North said, but it is often the case that the United Kingdom is doing all that it can, and this is a good example. Others will no doubt come and play, but we cannot force other countries to follow our example, any more than we can force companies registered in other countries to abide by our law. That has always been the case, and rightly so.
I hope that I have been able to answer right hon. and hon. Members’ questions. It is an important new regime for companies, increasing the transparency of who owns and controls UK companies. It is important to maintain the United Kingdom’s high standards of corporate trust. Anti-corruption is a key priority for this Government, and our Prime Minister has taken a serious personal interest in it. I know that there is, quite rightly, cross-party support for the issue.
Kevin Brennan
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, which will undoubtedly save us time. Although we are content, as I said earlier, to let these regulations pass without asking for a Division, I would like to put it on record that it is important to get accurate figures on the impact assessments and the cost to business when we discuss such matters. Who knows; inspiration might come to the Minister while I am on my feet. However, if she is unable to clarify that matter now, I would welcome an early communication from her, as I am sure would other Committee members, about the correct figure. We are content to let the regulations go through on trust because we think that they are good measures, but nevertheless, it is important when we debate such things that the Minister has the correct information before her—it is not her fault—so that the Committee can discuss them with the full information before it.
Anna Soubry
I apologise for being unable to give the definitive figure. I can tell the Committee only what I have been given, and it is not the same as the figure that the hon. Gentleman has. However, there is some indication that he might be right and that, for reasons that I do not understand, the figure that I have been given is not. Either way, we will sort out the matter, and I apologise. One would think from the abundance of papers and officials that I have that somebody might be able to give a definitive answer.
Notwithstanding that, these are important regulations and I am pleased that they have cross-party support. I commend both statutory instruments to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Committee has considered the draft Register of People with Significant Control Regulations 2016.
Draft Limited Liability Partnerships (Register of People with Significant Control) Regulations 2016
Resolved,
That the Committee has considered the draft Limited Liability Partnerships (Register of People with Significant Control) Regulations 2016.—(Anna Soubry.)
Draft Infrastructure Planning (Onshore Wind Generating Stations) Order 2016
(8 years, 2 months ago)
General CommitteesRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Tom Pursglove (Corby) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Nuttall. May I draw the Committee’s attention to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests? I am the director of Together Against Wind, the national anti-wind-farm campaign.
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Andrea Leadsom)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Infrastructure Planning (Onshore Wind Generating Stations) Order 2016.
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Nuttall.
The Government were elected with a clear commitment to give local people the final say on whether to have a wind farm in their area. The order helps to do exactly—and only—that, as was stated in our manifesto. This affirmative instrument amends section 15 of the Planning Act 2008, removing the obligation in that Act to obtain consent from the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change to construct, extend or operate an onshore wind farm in England or Wales.
The change, alongside secondary legislation already made and proposed primary legislation in relation to the Electricity Act 1989, will have the effect of removing the requirement for planning permission to be obtained from the Secretary of State for the construction of new onshore wind farms. Instead, developers will need to apply for planning permission under the Town and Country Planning Act 1990, where the primary decision maker is the relevant local planning authority. To be clear, the provision relates only to proposed new wind farms with a capacity greater than 50 MW. Smaller wind farms, including those owned by the community, are already consented by the relevant local planning authority.
The changes are further supported in England by the implementation of the written ministerial statement outlined by the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government on 18 June last year. The combined effect of the measures is to ensure that new onshore wind is consented at local level and built only where local people have said they want it.
I wish to make it clear to all hon. Members that the intention behind the draft order and the instrument already made under the 1989 Act is simply to implement the full devolution of onshore wind consenting powers to local authorities and away from Whitehall. The instrument does not go any further than I have set out and does not in any way change the existing Town and Country Planning Act regime, or devolve planning further than to that regime. The measure affects only new projects in England and Wales. Once onshore wind consenting powers have fully devolved to Wales, it will be for the Welsh Assembly and Welsh Government to determine how new onshore wind farms in Wales are consented.
Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Nuttall.
The order is a straightforward, almost elegant piece of secondary legislation. As we discussed in our deliberations on the Energy Bill, it will ensure that onshore wind applications of more than 50 MW are decided by local authority planning arrangements, rather than by reference to the Minister under the terms of the 2008 Act. From my reading of the text, that gives rise to very few consequentials, but that does not mean there are none overall. Has the Minister discussed with other Departments, particularly the Department for Communities and Local Government, what the consequences will be for existing planning arrangements? I will give two brief examples of consequentials that I feel might arise.
First, the existing planning application guidance for local authorities will necessarily be deficient in the new circumstances, because applications for wind stations of more than 50 MW have essentially, up to now, not come before those authorities. I am particularly keen to ensure that planning applications for onshore wind farms of more than 50 MW are actually in the hands of local authorities and of no one else. However, there is, and will remain, an appeal process to planning inspectors and there is the possibility that the process will be undertaken not by the local authority concerned. It therefore seems particularly important that proper guidance is in place as to the extent of such appeals and the circumstances in which an inspector might intervene in the process. Has the Minister had the chance to talk to the DCLG about that consequence?
Secondly, the 2008 Act generated substantial books of national planning policy guidance. Onshore wind was a part of that guidance but will no longer be—in theory, and probably in practice—as a consequence of the proposed change. Therefore, it ought at least to be considered whether the existing national planning policy guidance needs to be amended.
Those are two examples of consequences of a statutory instrument that is otherwise relatively unencumbered by consequences. There is, however, one other point on which I would like briefly to detain the Minister. The order contains essential instructions and guidance regarding applications that are already under way. The order will come into effect the day after it is made, but there will be schemes that were started in different circumstances and have not yet come out of the pipeline for final consideration. Does the Minister have a view as to what would happen were any scheme presently in the pipeline, and therefore covered by the transitional clauses, to wish to be considered by a local authority? Is it her understanding that the order would be a bar to that happening, or are there circumstances in which a requirement to continue to work according to the 2008 Act could or should be waived?
I would be most grateful if the Minister shed some light on my questions. In the circumstance of light being properly shed, I imagine that we could agree the statutory instrument and not divide the Committee.
Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)
I am a supporter of renewables, including onshore wind and ground-mounted solar, and I have a solar farm on the farm in which I am a family partner. I support the proposals in the draft order.
Thirty or 40 years ago, when onshore wind first arrived in the UK, there was tremendous popular support in communities for it, such as in Swaffham in Norfolk. Somehow along the way we have lost that strong local community support for onshore wind, and I suspect that one of the reasons for that is that communities have felt that schemes have been foisted upon them. The draft order enables us to give onshore wind a chance in the future. On that basis, I support the proposals.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
I will pick up on some of the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test, in particular on the guidance and the parameters for a local authority to determine an application.
I am sorry, but I completely disagree with the hon. Member for Waveney. The draft order will mean that in many cases the wind plants do not go ahead, as popular opinion locally and the voice of the communities will clearly argue against them. It is therefore important to know what the guidance will be and how local authorities will draw up their policies on how wind plants fit into their local plans, for example. Without such guidance, a local authority could attract great costs if it declines a wind farm and that decision is appealed to the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change or the Planning Inspectorate. A local authority could be left in a difficult position, because in meeting local opinion and satisfying objections, it might incur the cost of the appeal process. If the Secretary of State or the inspector granted the planning application, members of local planning committees could be left in a difficult position.
Will the Minister say when guidance for local authority planning committees will be produced? Will the ultimate role of the Secretary of State be similar to that in relation to other planning applications: if appealed, they end up on the Secretary of State’s desk? If so, will the Secretary of State deal with them case by case, or will there be a de facto Government position whereby all applications turned down by a local planning authority will be resisted by the Secretary of State?
I also have questions about the involvement of other Departments in wind farm applications. The Ministry of Defence in particular has a clear interest in the siting of wind farms, because of the effect on military radar tracking aircraft and so on. Will individual Departments still make and be able to make objections to applications for wind farms that would be detrimental to the Department’s interests? The MOD, for example, might object because of flying operations.
Finally, I remember the slogan, “vote blue, go green”. Has any assessment been made of the effect of the draft legislation on the number of wind farms applications that would be successful under the proposed process?
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
I have one brief question for the Minister, seeking an observation as much as anything else. By way of background, I have had a personal interest—not a financial interest, but a personal interest—in renewable energy and onshore wind for about 30 years. Generally speaking, I was not opposed to onshore wind, and when it was a new technology, it was welcomed in my constituency. The Centre for Alternative Technology is based in my constituency, where there is a general thriving interest. In recent years, though, a level of development has been imposed that has caused great objection locally, and I am now thought of as an opponent of onshore wind, which is, generally speaking, the truth. That is why I welcome the draft order and everything the Minister said, but there is on point on which I seek her views.
The Minister spoke very much about localising decision making on granting permission for wind farms with an output of more than 50 MW, which is essentially being given to local government in England and Wales. In Wales, the Welsh Government have already taken in hand the permissions on wind farms smaller than 50 MW where they have decided that there are issues of significant national interest. They are going to take the power away from local councils for 25 MW upwards, so we can anticipate that local government in Wales will not have any say on such applications, which is a huge concern to me. It seems to be the opposite course from the one that most Members of Parliament would support, which is giving power to local councils. Does my hon. Friend have any observations on the likely consequence of the change in Wales?
Andrea Leadsom
I will try to respond to everyone’s questions. They were coming at me thick and fast, but hopefully I have caught them all.
First, I thank the hon. Member for Southampton, Test, who asked how this statutory instrument will affect the DCLG and the planning process overall, and in particular whether onshore appeals will still take place. The call-in powers and recovery capability of the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government will remain. Call-in powers are used by the Secretary of State, or in Wales by Welsh Ministers, when a decision is taken to move an application away from a local planning authority and to make the decision themselves. Similarly, recovered appeals are used when those Ministers decide to make the final decision on an appeal themselves, rather than the Planning Inspectorate making it on their behalf. The Secretary of State or a Welsh Minister will reserve the right to call in applications and recover appeals. That power is already devolved in Wales.
Secondly, the hon. Gentleman asked whether there are any transitional arrangements. A transitional arrangement applies when a valid planning application for a wind energy development had already been submitted to a local planning authority when the written ministerial statement was made last year and the development plan does not identify suitable sites. In such instances, a local planning authority may find the proposal acceptable if, following consultation, it is satisfied that the proposal has addressed the planning concerns of the affected local communities and therefore has their backing. In the case of appeals, it would need to be considered by planning inspectors on a case-by-case basis.
The hon. Member for North Durham raised the same question and asked what happens in the local planning authority process for determining whether there is local agreement. It will normally be the case that local planning permission will be given where there is scope in the local plan, as agreed by the local authority, for general approval of wind farms in its area. If a local planning authority has not yet identified sites for wind farms, there is a transitional arrangement whereby it may find a proposal acceptable following consultation with local communities, which was set out in the DCLG ministerial statement that was laid before the House last June.
Mr Jones
I am grateful for that reply, but County Durham, for example, is still going through the process of developing its local plan because it was rejected by the inspector. Where does that leave a county such as County Durham, which at the moment does not have a local plan in place, when determining where the sites should be?
Andrea Leadsom
As I said, in that transitional period, the local authority would need to consult local communities to address any concerns that they may have and only then approve a planning application when the site has the backing of local communities. That was set out in the ministerial statement in June last year. I think I have answered the hon. Gentleman’s question—
Mr Jones
What the Minister is saying is that if local people object, the application can be turned down. Surely guidance has to be given to the local authorities on what is and is not a suitable site. There is guidance for every other type of thing. She is arguing for a situation in which, in a place such as County Durham where there is no plan, if local people object, the proposal will be stopped. I am sure developers would not like that.
Andrea Leadsom
The national planning policy framework encourages local councils to consider identifying suitable areas for renewable energy; equally, local neighbourhood plans can identify sites. As I have said to the hon. Gentleman, it is absolutely the case—it was in our manifesto—that we are determined that local communities have the final say, so he is exactly right: in the event that the local authority cannot get the backing of the local community, it will turn down that application, and that is the point about our manifesto commitment.
Moving on to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney, I am grateful for his support for the measure, which takes local planning absolutely to the forefront for all onshore wind. I am also grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire for raising the very important point about how, under devolution, the Welsh Government decide how they intend to hear onshore wind farm applications. I can only confirm to him that it will be for them to decide, and I share his concern that given that this Government’s policy is to ensure that local communities have their say and have the last word, it will be unfortunate if that is not the case in Wales for those in his community who want it to be, but this is a devolved matter and it will be for Welsh Ministers to decide.
Dr Whitehead
The Minister has made it clear that the commitment in the Conservative manifesto was that local authorities should have the final say. The concern that I raised in my initial comments—my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham has alluded to this— was what guidance will be in place on local authority actions once the Minister has relinquished her authority under the previous legislation to consider applications, so that local authorities really do have the final say and other factors do not come into play. It seems to me that the guidance would necessarily have to spell that out fairly clearly, either where a local authority is minded to turn down the application because there is a great deal of local opposition or good planning grounds to turn it down, or where a local authority, because there is massive local public support, is very much minded to agree an application and has the policies in place to back that up.
Andrea Leadsom
As I think I said, the national planning policy framework encourages local authorities to identify sites that are suitable for renewable energy. It also encourages neighbourhood development plans to do the same. I want to be clear that this Government believe in devolving powers to local authorities. We made a manifesto commitment that local communities will have the final say on onshore windfarms.
Andrea Leadsom
I will not give way again; I have answered the question three times. It is absolutely our settled position that local communities will have the final say. The ministerial statement issued by the Department for Communities and Local Government in June last year sets out the process by which local communities will be able to have their say on onshore windfarm applications. By transferring decisions out of Whitehall to local planning authorities, combined with the measures set out by the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, we are putting local communities in the driving seat. That will deliver our manifesto commitment by ensuring that new onshore wind—
Mr Jones
On a point of order, Mr Nuttall. I thought the purpose of these Committees was to scrutinise the piece of legislation before us. The Minister is refusing to answer the legitimate concerns expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test and the points I have raised. It is not the case that it is somehow left up to people to decide. A planning appeal has to go through a legal process. I expect the Minister to answer those points.
The Chair
I think the hon. Gentleman has been in the House long enough to know that that is not a point of order. The Minister has given way and is now not giving way. That is the end of the matter for the moment.
Andrea Leadsom
Thank you, Mr Nuttall. I have answered the hon. Member for North Durham four times. Unfortunately, perhaps the problem is with him.
I have been clear throughout the wide-ranging debates on this issue, including during consideration of the Energy Bill, that our manifesto commitment on onshore wind is to strengthen the position of local communities, and that is exactly what the draft order will achieve.
Question put and agreed to.
Ministerial Corrections
(8 years, 2 months ago)
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Foreign and Commonwealth Office
(8 years, 2 months ago)
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Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
As the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) said, and as the Minister accepted, a humanitarian crisis of unprecedented magnitude has unfolded in Yemen. As we learned from the United Nations last August, Yemen in five months is like Syria after five years. It is critical that humanitarian aid gets into the country and that, for those purposes, the Red sea ports are opened up. Will the Minister say when he expects that to happen and what we and others are doing to ensure that it happens?
Mr Ellwood
My hon. and learned Friend makes a powerful point and I acknowledge his expertise and interest in the area. The logistics of getting humanitarian aid across the country are severely limited, because aid has to go through the main port of Aden in the south. It is therefore critical that the port of Hudaydah on the Red sea coast is opened up as soon as possible. That cannot happen first of all because it is in Houthi hands, and secondly because the cranes have been damaged, which is perhaps a smaller issue. It is a priority for the UN envoy, Ismail Ahmed, who will be discussing opening that port as soon as possible to allow aid to get in swiftly to the rest of the country.
[Official Report, 28 January 2016, Vol. 605, c. 430.]
Letter of correction from the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood):
An error has been identified in the response I gave to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) during the Urgent Question on arms sales to Saudi Arabia.
The correct response should have been:
Mr Ellwood
My hon. and learned Friend makes a powerful point and I acknowledge his expertise and interest in the area. The logistics of getting humanitarian aid across the country are severely limited, because aid has to go through the main port of Aden in the south. It is therefore critical that capacity issues restricting the use of the port of Hudaydah on the Red sea coast are resolved as soon as possible. That cannot happen first of all because it is in Houthi hands, and secondly because the cranes have been damaged, which is perhaps a smaller issue. It is priority for the UN envoy, Ismail Ahmed, who will be discussing improving the operation of that port as soon as possible to allow aid to get in swiftly to the rest of the country.
Health
(8 years, 2 months ago)
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Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
The same survey indicates that one in four people are now waiting more than a week to see their GP, and a staggering 1 million people are heading off to A&E because they cannot get an appointment with their GP. It is a total meltdown. What is the Minister doing about it?
Alistair Burt
There are 40 million more appointments available for GPs than in the past. The Government have made a commitment to transform GP access, and £175 million has been invested to test improved and innovative access to GP services. There are 57 schemes involving 2,500 practices, and by March next year more than 18 million patients—a third of the population—will have benefited from improved access and transformed service at local level. That is what we are doing about it.
[Official Report, 9 February 2016, Vol. 605, c. 1422.]
Letter of correction from Alistair Burt:
An error has been identified in the response I gave to the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) during Questions to the Secretary of State for Health.
The correct response should have been:
Alistair Burt
There are 40 million more appointments available for GPs than in the past. The Government have made a commitment to transform GP access, and £175 million has been invested to test improved and innovative access to GP services. There are 57 schemes involving 2,500 practices, and by March this year more than 18 million patients—a third of the population—will have benefited from improved access and transformed service at local level. That is what we are doing about it.
Planning and studentification (Chester)
Climate change
Written Statements
(8 years, 2 months ago)
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Grants of Probate
(8 years, 2 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Shailesh Vara)
On 18 February, the Government published a consultation paper proposing new fees for applications for grants of probate.
In the spending review the Ministry of Justice was allocated £700 million investment in Her Majesty’s Court and Tribunal Service (‘HMCTS’). This will transform our courts and tribunals, reducing complexity in language, processes and systems; helping people reach the best resolution for them; minimising the steps that people need to go through to obtain justice; and improving access to justice. We will invest in better facilities and use technology to reduce paperwork, so that we create a courts and tribunals service fit for the modern age.
At the same time, we must reduce the burden on the taxpayer of running our courts and tribunals. In meeting our spending review settlement, all parts of the Ministry of Justice must contribute to the national effort to reduce the deficit and restore the Government’s finances to surplus. The courts and tribunals service cost £1.8 billion in 2014/15, but only £700 million was received in income. This leaves a net cost to the taxpayer of around £1.1 billion in one year alone.
Our consultation on probate applications sets out reforms designed to increase income for a more sustainable courts and tribunals service and to introduce a more progressive fees regime. Probate applications are currently charged a fee of £155 if made by a solicitor and £215 if paid by an individual (“personal applications”). These fees apply to estates worth £5,000 or more. We propose raising this threshold from £5,000 to £50,000, lifting 30,000 estates out of the need to pay a probate fee altogether. The proportion of estates paying no fee would rise to 57%.
Above that threshold, we propose that the probate fee increases in line with the value of the estate. Estates worth over £50,000 but below £300,000 would see their fee rise to £300, a modest increase of £85 on the current maximum fee of £215. 84% of estates would pay £300 or nothing and 94% of estates would pay £1000 or less. The maximum fee of £20,000 would only be paid by the very wealthiest estates, worth more than £2 million. The fee would never exceed 1% of the value of the estate and in many cases it would be considerably less.
We also want to see a simpler, more streamlined process for probate applications, moving from a paper-based to an online system. This will make the probate service much easier to navigate so the experience of the bereaved is as simple and hassle-free as possible, reducing worry for executors at what is often a very difficult and distressing time, and enabling most applications to be completed online and, we hope, without expensive professional advice.
These proposals are progressive, with lower value estates lifted out of paying any fee at all and other estates only paying more as the value of the estate increases. They are also necessary, making a significant contribution to reducing the deficit and enabling investment which will transform the courts and tribunals service.
Court fees are never popular but they are necessary if we are, as a nation, to live within our means. These proposals would raise around an additional £250 million a year, which is a critical contribution to cutting the deficit and reducing the burden on the taxpayer of running the courts tribunals.
Full details of the Government’s proposals are set out in the consultation document which has published on the website at: www.gov.uk.
[HCWS541]
HM Courts and Tribunals Service
(8 years, 2 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Shailesh Vara)
On 19 February the Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor wrote to the Chair of the Justice Select Committee to inform him of two issues concerning Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service (‘HMCTS’): one relating to Form E1 and the other relating to community penalty breach warrant processing errors.
As a result of further extensive investigations to establish the cause of the Form E error, my officials have alerted me to a further calculator problem in a past version of another form, Form E1.
Form E1 is the form that parties must use to disclose financial information in certain kinds of financial proceedings, including proceedings for financial provision for children that fall outside the statutory maintenance scheme. Form E1 is used in a much smaller number of proceedings than Form E.
This fault meant that the automatic calculator in the form calculated the wrong total for an individual’s net assets by failing to deduct certain liabilities.
The investigation found the faulty formula was present in the version of Form E1 that was available on the HMCTS Form Finder website between April 2011 and March 2012.
HMCTS has conducted a search on a set of 459 cases that have a record of a financial application or a reference to Form E1 having been filed during this period. Where Form E1s were found, they were checked to see if they were the HMCTS version containing the calculator error, and if so whether the error was present. Three Form E1s have been identified as containing the calculation error.
While we are confident that the trawl has captured the vast majority of cases that could have been affected by the error, anyone concerned about their case can write to us and their case will be checked. Following the Form E error coming to light, HMCTS established a dedicated email address which people could use if they were concerned about their own case: formE@hmcts. gsi.gov.uk. Those who wish to contact us about Form E1 should use this same email address.
Although the faulty form was used in these cases, it will not necessarily have had any effect on the ultimate outcome. Form E1 is only a part of the material used by the parties and the court and is used at an early stage, so the information is often disputed or superseded by further information introduced during proceedings.
We have instructed HMCTS to write to all parties in the three cases identified. The letter will express our sincere regret, set out what happened and explain that, although Form E1 is just one part of the evidence used in their case, there remains a possibility that the error affected the final outcome.
The letter will set out options available to people involved in these cases. They may wish to do nothing, if, for example, they know that the error was corrected during the proceedings or they do not wish to re-open their cases. If they think they have been affected by this error then they can apply to the court to vary or set aside their order. My officials consulted the president of the Family Division about the court rules and procedures that would apply to such applications or for any other proceedings that might be open to the parties. My officials are also consulting the president on the development of a specific form for such applications. We will provide a link to the new form in our letter to the parties, as well as guidance on how to complete the form.
We have instructed that no court fee will be charged for making this application, and this will also be made clear in the letter from HMCTS.
The current version of Form E1 has the correct calculator functionality and we will also consider the future of Form E1 as part of our broader court reforms.
With regard to community penalty breach warrants, on Tuesday 26 January, I was alerted to an error in the processing of an individual breach warrant by HMCTS.
A community penalty breach warrant is issued when an individual has failed to attend court to answer why they have not complied with the conditions of, for example, a community or suspended sentence. In some circumstances, individuals may be remanded in custody following a breach of their order.
The effect of a breach warrant not being processed properly can be that notification that a warrant has been issued to arrest an individual is either sent late to the arresting authority or not sent at all.
Following this individual case, HMCTS immediately began an urgent investigation into whether this was an isolated incident or more widespread. Initial local checks into all 725 ‘live’ breach warrants in the Greater Manchester area discovered that a further 51 breach warrants had been processed incorrectly. Those errors were due to processes being disapplied or ignored by specific members of HMCTS staff in the Greater Manchester area. Immediate steps have been taken to ensure that proper procedures are now being followed in Greater Manchester and action has been taken against all members of staff identified as responsible for these errors. All of the 52 warrants have since been processed correctly and have either been actioned or are in the process of being actioned by the enforcing authority.
Given the potentially serious repercussions of breach warrants not being properly processed, HMCTS then instigated detailed and thorough investigations across the whole of England and Wales to see if the problems in Greater Manchester had also occurred elsewhere. A total of 4,054 live warrants (including those in Greater Manchester) have been checked in 200 issuing courts across the country—including every warrant issued over the last month. Those checks have identified a further 69 errors nationally, including 47 in the London region.
Investigations are now examining the reasons for error in all 69 cases outside of Greater Manchester, and are particularly focused on why a disproportionate number appear to have occurred in London.
Early findings have already made clear that the majority of the errors in London were due to a change in process and personnel that had been addressed by the end of January 2016.
Immediate detailed assurance is being carried out of local processes to ensure that all community penalty breach warrants are sent to the appropriate enforcement authority, and an in-depth audit is being carried out in London and Greater Manchester to assure their processes independently. The relevant standard operating procedures are being strengthened as a matter of urgency, and best practice that has been identified through the investigations undertaken will be shared and implemented across the country. Appropriate action will be taken in respect of all staff members who have made errors, consistent with the approach taken in Greater Manchester.
HMCTS will report to me as soon as possible on the reasons for each individual error across the country and will also recommend whether more action should be taken to the steps outlined above in order to eliminate the possibility of further errors occurring in future. These mistakes are deeply regrettably and I sincerely apologise to anyone who may have been affected.
[HCWS540]
Grand Committee
(8 years, 2 months ago)
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Arrangement of Business
(8 years, 2 months ago)
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The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Henig) (Lab)
My Lords, if there is a Division in the House, the Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes.
European Union Referendum (Conduct) Regulations 2016
(8 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Bridges of Headley
That the Grand Committee do consider the draft European Union Referendum (Conduct) Regulations 2016.
Relevant document: 24th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)
My Lords, the draft conduct regulations set out the detailed framework for administration of the referendum poll and are largely procedural in nature. I would like to start by thanking members of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, which considered and approved these draft regulations on 5 February, and the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which has also considered them and published a considered and helpful report on 11 February.
The conduct regulations specify items such as the way that ballot papers will be issued and how voting will take place in polling stations. They also specify the arrangements for absent voting at the referendum, which provide for people to vote by post or by proxy as an alternative to voting in person. They cover the arrangements for the counting of votes and declaration of results as well as the way that ballot papers and other referendum documents will be disposed of following the poll. Existing electoral offences such as double voting are also applied to the referendum by the regulations.
As noble Lords will no doubt be aware, all elections have conduct rules—they are a routine part of every British poll. We have modelled these conduct regulations on the rules that we used to administer the parliamentary voting system referendum in May 2011, which were themselves modelled on those used for UK parliamentary elections. The Parliament and Government of Gibraltar will make rules for the administration of the referendum there. In addition, minor changes to the UK rules have been required to reflect the fact that the European Union referendum will take place in Gibraltar as well as in the United Kingdom.
Noble Lords will also note that we have also taken into account changes in electoral law since the 2011 referendum as well as recommendations from the Electoral Commission. For example, in line with the Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013, the regulations provide for people who are queuing at the point when a polling stations closes to vote.
The conduct regulations were published in draft in July 2015 in order to give the Electoral Commission, Members of Parliament and other interested parties an opportunity to review their content and to comment. This gave electoral administrators significant notice and allowed them to begin their planning activity far in advance of the poll. The responses that we received, which were largely technical in nature, were carefully considered before the conduct regulations were finalised. I beg to move.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, I say at the outset that I genuinely have no issues with the regulations before me. They are what I would expect to ensure a well-run, efficient referendum, and ensuring a well-run referendum is in everyone’s interest. We must never allow the conduct, or otherwise, of any ballot, election or referendum to become the story. However, I have a number of questions for the noble Lord, Lord Bridges of Headley, and I will go straight into them.
How will the noble Lord ensure that counting officers and their staff have sufficient resources in place to conduct this referendum properly? What plans do the Government have to impress upon the chief counting officer, the regional counting officers and the local counting officers the importance of delivering a well-run referendum and of avoiding past mistakes in elections? Do the Government intend to impress upon the chief counting officer the need to use her powers of direction at any point where she feels that confidence in the running of the ballot could be undermined by poor practice by counting officers and their staff?
We need an absolute guarantee that ballot papers for every single voter in the UK will be printed and available at the polling station—not just an estimated number that the local counting officer thinks may turn up to vote. How will the Government ensure that this happens? In the past, problems have been caused by people arriving in the last 30 minutes and not being able to vote. What specific actions will the Government be taking in this referendum to ensure that there are sufficient staff on duty at each ballot station to cope with a last-minute surge of people?
We have all cast a vote many times in the past. Let us think back: is the polling station we normally use adequate if a large number of people come in to vote? How will the Government ensure that polling stations can cope with a larger number of arrivals than normal? I know that you cannot change where the station is, but it may be that, instead of the usual smaller room, you could move to a bigger room in the school or whatever is being used.
What discussions will the Government have with the police about their role in ensuring that the referendum is free and fair? What discussions will the Government have with the police and crime commissioners to ensure a free and fair referendum?
How will the Government address the problem of a very close overall result and the calls for a full national recount that will inevitably follow? There will be local counts with a big win for one side and, frankly, all the people could have packed up and gone home. Is that something in the hands of the chief counting officer, or is there no provision for it?
When is the counting of votes going to take place? I hope the noble Lord will confirm that counting will start as quickly as possible after 10 pm. It is necessary for this to be done expeditiously, with counts starting at the same time across the UK.
Can the Minister explain the thinking of the Government on the regulated period? A 10-week regulated period would overlap with the elections for the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament. If a seven-week regulated period was in place then the elections and the referendum would be separate, which would be much clearer for everyone.
How are the Government going to ensure that the more than 2 million British citizens living abroad are able to register and vote?
Those are the points I have at the moment, but I hope that if the Minister responds to those, he will not mind if I put other points to him later. As I have said, I have no issues with the regulations as they stand. My questions arise only from reading the documents and wanting to ensure that we have a proper referendum and that the process does not become the story.
Lord Hayward (Con)
May I ask, following on from that question, about the counting of postal votes? I noted that the Minister had a look of horror, concern or surprise—I am not sure which it was—when I came into the Room. He was fairly sure that I would ask one question or another. Under normal circumstances, postal votes are counted over a number of days and, despite the Electoral Commission’s best guidance which is being implemented by most councils, it is sometimes possible to see the results of those postal votes. Given that, in these circumstances, any leak of information will be seriously market sensitive in relation to the value of the pound and other aspects that might impact on the City and the world’s stock markets, could my noble friend say whether postal votes will be counted on the day, thereby minimising the chance of leaks in advance, or, as they normally are in other elections, over a series of days?
Lord Bridges of Headley
I thank both noble Lords who have spoken, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, who speaks with a lot of experience. I will try to answer his excellent questions. Like him, I wish to see this referendum being conducted properly, fairly and efficiently. I will answer his questions in the spirit in which he asked them.
The noble Lord asked how the Government plan to ensure that counting officers and their staff at polling stations have sufficient resources to conduct the referendum properly, and about what plans we have to impress on chief, regional and local counting officers the importance of delivering a well-run referendum and avoiding past mistakes in elections. Those are fair questions. The Electoral Commission’s planning for the referendum, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, is already well under way; a management structure of groups and the regional counting officers is in place to ensure effective planning. I am sure that the noble Lord, having himself been an electoral commissioner during the 2011 referendum, will be aware of the approach taken by the chief counting officer and her team to ensure that that poll was well-run, and I am sure that she is taking on board and learning from that experience in planning for the poll on 23 June.
A related question was how the Government intend to impress on the chief counting officer the need to use her powers of direction at any point when she might feel confidence in the running of the ballot could be undermined by poor practice by counting officers and their staff. On this point, I am also sure that the chief counting officer and her team at the Electoral Commission will be playing very close attention to the debate and to the remarks that the noble Lord has just made, and will note the legitimate concerns here. This goes without saying, but I will make the obvious point that we are in very close touch with the Electoral Commission on the operations of the poll, and government officials and I will ensure that the noble Lord’s points are flagged up with it directly.
Another related point was about ensuring that ballot papers for every single voter will be printed and available at the polling station and what the Government are doing to ensure that the polling stations are of sufficient size to cope with larger than normal numbers. As the noble Lord will know, the detail of how the polls are run is a matter for the chief counting officer. We are aware that numbers of ballot papers and the logistics of polling stations are among the delivery matters that the Electoral Commission has already considered and planned for with directions and guidance. For example, the chief counting officer has indicated that she will require ballot papers to be printed to cover 110% of the eligible electorate, to ensure that sufficient papers are available, and that contingencies will be in place.
As regards the declaration of the results, the votes will be counted overnight. The conduct rules specify that counting officers must begin counting the votes as soon as practical after polling closes at 10 pm. As well as the overall result of the referendum, which will be decided by a simple majority, separate results will be announced for each voting area and region. Separate results will be declared for each local authority as well as for Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
I live in Lewisham, which possibly will vote heavily in favour of staying in the European Union, but other places will not. Although there may be quite a large result either way, when it is all added together there might be only a few thousand votes in it. I remember that the referendum on the Welsh Assembly was very close, and I think it was the last area to declare that narrowly gave a yes vote. I am conscious that if we end up like that, with a few thousand votes in it nationally, we will have people saying, “Hang on, I want a recount”. How will that happen? Can it happen?
Lord Bridges of Headley
I will need to write on the details of that. As for the timing, the counting must begin, as I said, as soon as practical after polling closes. The results will be declared by each local authority. I will respond to the noble Lord in writing on the details.
The noble Lord raised a legitimate question as to whether, with a 10-week regulated period, we might have an overlap of the regulated periods for the referendum and for the elections to the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly. I think he is arguing that if we had a seven-week regulated period, there would be no overlap and a clearer position for everyone. We recognise that some campaigners and political parties will wish to campaign both in the elections to the devolved legislatures and in the referendum. Existing Electoral Commission guidance explains how to split spending limits for elections and referendums. The Electoral Commission has given an undertaking to issue further guidance to explain the impact of the overlapping periods for parties and campaigners who are campaigning in both the EU referendum and the May 2016 elections.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
I am sure the commission will give very good guidance and do it very well, but as his explanation suggests, this is quite complicated. If the periods were split, it would be very different and there would not be these problems. The Minister is absolutely right that those campaigning for elections to all the bodies he has talked about and for the in/out referendum will in many cases be the same people. That is the problem. Maybe it cannot be changed, but there is an issue there and perhaps he could look at that again and talk further to the commission. Its guidance is good, but if this stays as it is, that guidance has to be very clear and precise.
Lord Bridges of Headley
I completely accept that point and am happy to raise it will the Electoral Commission again. As I say, I very much hope that the commission will be reading this debate with considerable interest, but I am happy to raise the point.
The noble Lord asked about ensuring that British citizens living abroad are able to register in time to vote in the referendum. As the noble Lord might know, the Government have strengthened and simplified the registration process so more voters can take part in elections by registering online. It now takes less than three minutes, and you can register throughout the year wherever you are. Under IER, there is no longer a general requirement for initial applications to be attested by another British citizen resident abroad, which we believe discouraged many Britons from registering in the first place. We have also extended the electoral timetable to give overseas electors more time to cast their votes. As the noble Lord may also know, the Foreign Office’s consular network supported the Electoral Commission’s overseas voter registration day last month to promote voter registration to British citizens abroad, and I urge overseas voters to register as soon as possible, and by 6 June at the latest, in order to take part in the referendum. I think that that probably addresses the points that the noble Lord raised on overseas voters, but I am happy to go into more detail if he so wishes.
The noble Lord also raised discussions with the police, which is a matter for the chief counting officer to take forward, but another good point worth flagging, and I will do so with the Electoral Commission. Postal votes are not counted before the close of the poll, and will be counted along with all other votes after the polls close.
I commend the regulations.
National Assembly for Wales (Representation of the People) (Amendment) Order 2016
(8 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen
That the Grand Committee do consider the draft National Assembly for Wales (Representation of the People) (Amendment) Order 2016.
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen (Con)
My Lords, the instruments that we are considering make changes to the rules for the administration and conduct of elections to the National Assembly for Wales and of police and crime commissioners. In particular, they make provision for the combination of polls at Welsh Assembly and PCC elections when they are held on the same day. They also apply, for the purposes of Welsh Assembly elections, provisions in the Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013 and associated secondary legislation, which made a number of changes to the rules for UK parliamentary elections.
Noble Lords may be familiar with these measures, which have been considered in earlier debates on instruments which applied the measures for the conduct of other elections and referendums. Indeed, I should explain that these changes have already been made for PCC elections in a previous instrument that the Committee has considered. The background to the instruments is that we have consulted on them with the Electoral Commission and with others such as the Association of Electoral Administrators and the Welsh Government.
I turn first to the Welsh Assembly order. The Assembly order requires a poll at an Assembly election to be combined with a poll at a PCC election when both polls are held on the same day, as will happen on 5 May 2016. I should explain what is meant by a combination of polls. Where more than one poll is held on the same day, it is common for electoral law to provide for the polls to be combined and for rules to be drawn up that set out how they will be administered. Such rules are designed to ensure that the polls are run effectively and seek to minimise any risks of confusion to the electorate.
The Assembly order therefore designates the constituency returning officer at the Assembly election as the lead returning officer when an ordinary Assembly election is combined with an ordinary PCC election, and ensures that voters will cast their vote at the same polling station for both the polls, and that a different coloured ballot paper is used for each poll. Returning officers will be able to issue a single poll card to electors for all the polls, and may issue to postal voters one postal voter ballot pack with two different sets of voting papers inside, instead of separate packs for each election.
The order also updates the forms used by voters, such as poll cards and postal voting statements, to make the voting process more accessible. The revised material has been produced following a programme of public user testing and consultation with the Electoral Commission, the Association of Electoral Administrators and Scope, and discussions with electoral services suppliers. I confirm that the order includes Welsh language versions of the forms.
I highlight that the order provides for the names of candidates to appear on the ballot paper for the election of regional members. This is an important change, designed to ensure that voters are aware of the candidates standing at the election.
The order also provides for police community support officers to enter polling stations and counting venues under the same conditions as police constables. This will allow police forces additional flexibility in deploying their resources on polling day, and allow them to provide a greater visible reassurance to the public.
The order additionally provides that voters waiting in a queue at the close of poll—that is, 10 pm on polling day—for the purpose of voting may be issued with ballot papers to enable them to vote, or may return postal voting statements or postal ballot papers despite the close of poll.
The order also applies to Welsh Assembly elections measures relating to postal voting that have already been made in respect of other elections. First, the order requires that 100% of postal voting statements are checked against voter records for security purposes.
Secondly, the order enables postal votes to be issued as soon as practicable at a poll. This is to facilitate the earlier dispatch of postal votes and to give administrators the flexibility to dispatch postal votes earlier than the 11th day before the poll, which is the earliest that postal votes may be issued to many postal voters at present. This will be of particular help to people in more remote locations, including service voters, as it will give them more time to receive, complete and return their postal vote in time for it to be counted. To facilitate this, the order moves the deadline for candidates to withdraw their nomination from Assembly elections from noon on the 16th working day before the poll to 4pm on the 19th working day before the poll, and the deadline for the publication of persons nominated becomes no later than 4pm on the 18th day before the day of the election.
Thirdly, electoral registration officers will be required to inform electors after an Assembly election where their postal vote has been rejected because the signature or date of birth, which are used as postal vote identifiers, that they have supplied on the postal voting statement failed to match those held on record, or where they had simply been left blank. This is to help ensure that those electors can participate effectively in future polls and not have their ballot papers rejected at successive polls because of a signature degradation or inadvertent errors. This will help legitimate voters who submit their postal ballot packs in good faith to avoid their vote being rejected at successive polls.
In response to a recommendation from the Electoral Commission, the order increases the spending limits for candidates at Assembly elections to take into account the effects of inflation. This means that the maximum amount that a candidate standing in an Assembly constituency may spend is increased from £7,150 to £8,700, together with an additional 9p, up from 7p, for every elector in a county constituency, and an additional 6p, up from 5p, for every elector in a borough constituency.
The instrument also provides for the fee of a returning officer at an Assembly election to be reduced, following a recommendation by the Electoral Commission, in the event of inadequate performance at an election. This mirrors an equivalent provision made for UK parliamentary elections by the Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013.
The National Assembly for Wales (Representation of the People) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2016 corrects errors that appear in the Welsh language sections of some of the forms set out in the National Assembly for Wales (Representation of the People) (Amendment) Order 2016. It is right that we have brought forward this further order to ensure that the forms used at the upcoming polls are correct.
Turning to the order concerning the conduct of PCC elections, as I have noted, the Welsh Assembly order requires ordinary Welsh Assembly and PCC polls to be combined when they are held on the same day. The PCC order complements the Assembly order by making equivalent provision, in relation to the rules for the conduct of PCC elections, for the combination of PCC and Assembly elections when they are held on the same day. The instrument also provides that when PCC and Assembly elections are combined, the voting areas for the purposes of the PCC election in Wales are Assembly constituencies, instead of local authority areas. This will ensure that both polls are administered on the ground using the same voting area—that is, Assembly constituencies—and by a single returning officer. The returning officer for a voting area will be the local returning officer for the PCC poll who is the constituency returning officer for the Assembly constituency.
The Electoral Commission and electoral administrators in Wales specifically requested that we align the voting areas in this way, which will assist in the effective running of the combined polls. The Electoral Commission has commented that this change reflects the view of the commission and of returning officers in Wales and avoids a potential risk to the effective administration of the election.
Noble Lords will be pleased to hear, in summary—they must have felt that I was going to be here all night—that I believe that the changes in the instruments concerning the conduct and administration of Welsh Assembly and PCC polls will help to increase voter participation and support the integrity of our electoral system, helping to ensure that the polls scheduled for May 2016 are run effectively. I beg to move.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, I apologise for missing the first two minutes, as I was in the Chamber trying to follow another devolution debate going on in parallel. I thank the noble Baroness for bringing these before the Committee. If she has not already said this in her opening remarks, will she confirm that there is unanimous backing for this in the National Assembly? I believe that to be the case—and therefore it is welcome.
I shall resist the temptation to ask her to clarify the grammatical errors in the Welsh language form, but that underlines one point—that many matters such as these should surely be devolved to the Assembly itself to handle rather than expecting Ministers with no knowledge of the Welsh language to handle it up here. Would I be correct in saying that, if the devolution Bill that is currently under consideration is passed as intended by the Government, that would put responsibility for matters such as these into the hands of the National Assembly, and therefore there would be no need to test the Minister on her detailed knowledge of the Welsh language?
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, these three regulations are being debated together, and at the outset I should say that I have no issues with the instruments before the Grand Committee today. However, I have a few points and questions for the noble Baroness, Lady Chisholm of Owlpen, and I am sure that she will be able to answer them for me.
First, in respect of the National Assembly for Wales order, I was pleased to see the addition of Article 23A, which concerns the inadequate performance of returning officers and the making of provisions for no payments. That will hopefully focus minds, but what are the Government going to do to deal with poor performance of returning officers in general? Payments can be withheld, but that is just imposing a monetary sanction; it is not actually dealing with the problem.
On Article 13, I was pleased to see that the expenses limit for candidates has been increased, as these elections were last contested five years ago and costs have increased for all candidates. Although we are not able to do it with this order, we need to get to a position whereby these allowances are automatically uprated by inflation, which would remove the need for this cumbersome process, involving officials, the Electoral Commission and everybody else.
In a similar vein, although I know that these issues are not part of these regulations, I hope that the Committee will forgive me for putting some other issues out there. The Government need to look at the whole question of recordable and reportable donations thresholds, which have not changed for well over six years and need to be uprated. Combining the polls with the PCC elections is sensible, makes for better, well-run elections, reduces costs and is helpful to both the administration of the election and voters alike.
The other matters in the order, which include allowing PCSOs to enter polling stations and making provision for people who had their postal vote rejected due to an identifier problem to be contacted to correct the problem for future elections, are very welcome.
Paragraph 7.6 of the Explanatory Memorandum refers to the work undertaken by the Law Commission to consolidate all our election law. For me, this cannot come soon enough. Election law is needlessly complex, hard to understand and contains far too many Acts, regulations and orders. A thorough rewriting would be in everyone’s interests, whether they be candidates, officials organising the elections or, most importantly, voters.
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen
I thank noble Lords for their contributions, and I will try to answer the points raised.
The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, raised the issue of devolution, and it is absolutely true that the Welsh Assembly will be responsible following the Bill, so noble Lords will not have to listen to me speaking here for at least 20 minutes on the subject. That is very important and will make a big difference.
The noble Lord also raised a point about the Welsh language. The Cabinet Office is looking into that further and is making sure that these mistakes do not happen in the future. It is getting together more people who can speak Welsh and can be in charge of this sort of thing, because it is not good for that to happen.
The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, made a point about the performance of returning officers. Even though monetary sanctions are indeed very important—it draws people up short if they think they will not get the amount of money they thought they would—I agree with him that other important considerations should be taken into account. The Cabinet Office has organised two seminars for all returning officers at PCC elections in England and Wales to provide training and guidance for the delivery of the PCC elections in May. In fact, on a recommendation from the Electoral Commission, the Welsh Assembly SI provides that Welsh Ministers may reduce or withhold returning officers’ charges in the event of poor performance at the Welsh Assembly elections. This is a significant sanction, and we have no plans at this time to introduce further sanctions in the event of poor performance. Our focus will be on the guidance and training provided to the returning officers.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
From my time as a commissioner, I remember that we had the situation where—I do not know whether returning officers are paid some money in advance—there was a complicated process of providing receipts and getting the money back. It seemed to go on for ever and was very cumbersome. Maybe we need to have the bills first and then pay the money out, but it seemed to go on for months. It was very inefficient. That went on between the commission and the returning officer. How this is funded and how money comes back needs to be looked at.
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen
The noble Lord raises an important point. Having it that way round seems to make things more complicated, and I will certainly take that back for further discussion.
The noble Lord also raised the issue of candidates’ expenses limits. Our current policy is not to link candidates’ expenses limits to inflation so that they increase automatically in line with inflation. Of course, we have agreed to increase the limits for the Welsh Assembly elections in May following a recommendation from the Electoral Commission. As with other electoral matters, this will be the responsibility of the Assembly once the Wales Bill is passed.
The noble Lord also raised the issue of the existing thresholds for reportable donations. These have not been changed since 2010. The current thresholds apply to elections across the piece. We do not wish to make a change for a particular poll and we have no plans to change the current arrangements, although, as with other electoral matters, we will keep this under review.
We do not as a matter of course consult political parties on electoral SIs, which are often technical in nature. We keep representatives of the parliamentary parties panel informed of our work on upcoming elections at meetings held on a quarterly basis. We will draw to their attention any planned changes we think would be of particular interest to them.
Lord Wigley
Would the noble Baroness confirm that the Government do consult on this with the National Assembly? The Assembly has the facility to discuss among the parties if it so determines, even as the law stands.
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen
Yes, and it does so as part of its assignment of running and reporting on polls. It refers back to the Electoral Commission on how things have gone as well.
I think that that has covered all the points raised. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, also mentioned that it would be good to simplify election law. We all take that view, and I shall certainly take it back. I could not agree more that the staff are incredibly efficient and good at what they do. They cannot be praised highly enough.
I commend the statutory instruments to the Committee.
Police and Crime Commissioner Elections (Amendment) Order 2016
(8 years, 2 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen
That the Grand Committee do consider the draft Police and Crime Commissioner Elections (Amendment) Order 2016.
National Assembly for Wales (Representation of the People) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2016
(8 years, 2 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen
That the Grand Committee do consider the draft National Assembly for Wales (Representation of the People) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2016.
Pharmacy (Premises Standards, Information Obligations, etc.) Order 2016
(8 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Prior of Brampton
That the Grand Committee do consider the draft Pharmacy (Premises Standards, Information Obligations, etc.) Order 2016.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Prior of Brampton) (Con)
My Lords, this order makes changes to the pharmacy regulators’ powers to regulate pharmacy premises. In broad terms, the intention is to remove the General Pharmaceutical Council’s duty to set standards in rules and, instead, turn them into code of practice-style obligations which are enforced through disciplinary committee procedures. The Northern Ireland regulator, the Pharmaceutical Society of Northern Ireland, will have a statutory duty to set standards for registered pharmacies and the order clarifies what those standards can cover.
The order also makes changes to the regulators’ ability to issue interim suspensions from the premises register. The General Pharmaceutical Council’s powers relating to improvement notices are amended. It is enabled to publish reports of pharmacy premises inspections, there are changes to its powers to obtain information from pharmacy owners, and a correction is made to the Pharmacy Order 2010 in respect of the notification of the General Pharmaceutical Council of the death of a pharmacy professional. All the changes have been developed with the agreement of the regulators, the Government and the devolved Administrations. Since the General Pharmaceutical Council’s pharmacy premises standards may relate to the regulation of pharmacy technicians, which is a devolved matter, this order has also been laid in the Scottish Parliament.
I should give the Committee some background. All pharmacists and pharmacy technicians who practise in Great Britain must be registered by the General Pharmaceutical Council. Pharmacists who practise in Northern Ireland are registered with the Pharmaceutical Society of Northern Ireland. Pharmacy technicians are not a registered healthcare profession in Northern Ireland. Unlike most other healthcare regulators, the pharmacy regulators are also responsible for the regulation of registered premises. The regulation of retail pharmacy premises is the subject of the order under debate today.
The key change for the General Pharmaceutical Council, and one of the Law Commission’s recommendations, is that it should no longer be required to set standards for registered pharmacies in rules. Instead, the standards should be aligned with other regulatory standards and be code of practice-style obligations enforced through disciplinary procedures. This supports the General Pharmaceutical Council’s approach, since its inception in 2010, to move to an outcomes-based approach to pharmacy premises regulation. Overall, it will align the legal status of registered pharmacies’ standards with the status of standards for individual registrants.
As a consequence of moving the standards out of rules, they will no longer be included in a statutory instrument that is subject to Privy Council approval. Increasing the autonomy of the General Pharmaceutical Council in this way is in line with government policy. However, the order includes an explicit requirement for the General Pharmaceutical Council to consult Scottish Ministers, as well as English and Welsh Ministers, on changes to pharmacy premises standards.
The General Pharmaceutical Council’s standard-setting powers are being extended to include associated premises; that is, premises at which activities are carried out which are integral to the provision of pharmacy services. This reflects the fact that, in some respects, the traditional model of pharmacy premises being entirely self-contained operations in which all aspects of the retail pharmacy business are carried out is, for some businesses, outdated. Integral parts of their business operations—for example, electronic data storage—may be elsewhere. Very similar changes are being made in relation to Northern Ireland.
The disqualification procedures for pharmacy owners and the procedures for removing premises from the premises register are being amended for both regulators; first, so they apply to retail pharmacy businesses owned by a pharmacist or a partnership, as well as bodies corporate; and, secondly, to clarify that the test to apply sanctions where premises standards are not met is whether or not the pharmacy owner is unfit to carry on the retail pharmacy business safely and effectively.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his careful explanation of the order. On the whole, the changes seem sensible, and I note that some of them follow the Law Commission’s recommendations. As the noble Lord will know, there has been disappointment that the Government did not bring forward a Bill or a draft Bill in relation to the whole package, and I know from our previous discussions that the Government are considering what further to do in relation to the regulation of individual health professionals. Is he able to update me on where the Government are on that?
On the detail of the order, I noted that overall the consultation outcome showed a great deal of support for the proposals, although perhaps less so in respect of the change in relation to standards for registered practices, which are no longer to be placed in legislative rules. I noted that some concerns were expressed, according to the Explanatory Memorandum,
“that removing the ‘black and white’ rules could lead to unhelpful variation for employee pharmacists in the way pharmacy owners choose to meet the standards”.
I assume that the proposal for an outcomes-based approach would ensure that there will be consistency about the standards themselves but leave more discretion for individual community pharmacies to decide how to meet them. Could the noble Lord confirm that for me?
The noble Lord made a very interesting comment at the end of his speech about the rapid change in the way community pharmacy services are provided. I certainly agree with that. I am sure he is aware that an estimated 1.6 million people visit a pharmacy every day. There is no question but that they have huge potential, not just in dispensing medicines but in many of the other services that are now available in community pharmacies, for example home delivery, compliance aids and other support to help old and frail people in particular live independently. There is also no question about the strong professional advice community pharmacies can give, particularly in relation to medicine management. We know, again, that older and frailer people in particular can be prescribed individual medicines without perhaps the GP or other doctors looking at the whole impact, whereas community pharmacies, through medicine management approaches, can have a very beneficial impact. For instance, this winter, NHS flu vaccines were available for the first time through community pharmacies. Again, that shows the benefit of recognising the professional expertise they have and of trying to ensure that they can relieve some of the load on other pressurised parts of the National Health Service.
The Government have made clear in a number of publications how they value community pharmacies, so I have been puzzled by the reductions that are going to be made in the community pharmacy budget, which is the subject of an Oral Question next week. I am puzzled by the thinking behind that reduction, which I think will start in October 2016, according to a letter that the Department for Health and NHS England sent out to community pharmacies. I just wanted to ask two or three questions about this.
First, in the letter that was sent out to community pharmacists, or to their representative organisations, there was a clear implication that the Government think there are too many community pharmacies at the moment. The letter points out:
“In some parts of the country there are more pharmacies than are necessary to maintain good access. 40% of pharmacies are in a cluster where there are three or more pharmacies within ten minutes’ walk. The development of large-scale automated dispensing, such as ‘hub and spoke’ arrangements, also provides opportunities for efficiencies”.
The department is also looking at ways of online ordering, which will make it easier for the public. The letter also says it is looking at,
“steps to encourage the optimisation of prescription duration”,
which I assume means prescriptions for a lengthier period than currently.
The Pharmaceutical Services Negotiating Committee has told me that it feels that the cut in budget is incompatible with the Government’s ambitions in relation to the contribution of community pharmacy. It wants to know whether it is government policy to see a reduction in community pharmacy premises. It would be a brave Government who said that they wanted to see that, but clearly it would be helpful to know if that is a stated intention. The development of an online pharmacy service is clearly to be encouraged. The record of community pharmacy has been very good in relation to being able to adopt a digital approach. Will that be done in a way that does not bypass the actual value of the advice that pharmacists can give to individual patients, particularly about medicine management?
Finally, on the question of increasing the length of time of a prescription, we know that a lot of medicine is wasted. Often, patients give up the course before they reach the end, even though they are recommended to take the full course. I can see that making the length of a prescription longer will mean that they will need fewer visits to the community pharmacist, thereby reducing the money going to the community pharmacist. However, if it leads to a greater waste of medicine, it might be a false economy. Has the department undertaken any work on that?
Overall, the SI itself is eminently sensible, but it cannot be considered without looking at the context of where community pharmacy is going. When we debated the Health and Social Care Bill in 2012, we discussed whether community pharmacists should be represented, as of right, on the board of a CCG. The Government resisted that, but there is evidence that because community pharmacists are not around the table at CCG level, the contribution they can make is often missed when it comes to issues such as how you make a health economy work effectively together or how you can, say, reduce pressure on A&E. We may be missing a trick here in not embracing community pharmacy rather more than we have been for the past year or two.
Lord Prior of Brampton
My Lords, I had a feeling that we might stray beyond the order, and we duly have. The noble Lord raised three broad points. The first was to request an update on the Law Commission’s report into the regulators. I do not have much to say that we have not already said. We think that a lot of what was in the Law Commission’s report was absolutely right, but it was a long and fairly prescriptive approach to the matter. We are considering it and may return to it in this Parliament, but it is not a priority in the short term.
The noble Lord referred to the outcomes-based approach and raised concern about whether the standards will be consistent. The intention is that they will, but there will be more discretion in how the outcomes are achieved. We are at one on the intent that lies behind his question.
I turn to the much more difficult matter that the noble Lord raised, which does not relate directly to the order, although he is right to say that it provides some context. The first thing to say is that I agree wholeheartedly with what he said about the vital role of pharmacists not just in dispensing but in how we manage medicines, perform vaccinations and look after the old and frail. I was interested by his comment at the end about why pharmacists are not represented on the board of CCGs. When we come to debate our whole approach to community pharmacy in more detail, we will set out our views on how pharmacy should be more integrated with the delivery of health and social care. It may well be that we should revisit whether pharmacists should be on the board of CCGs. Perhaps I can take that away to think about it further.
I do not want to be taken down the route of the number of pharmacists, because we are out to consultation at the moment. It is a fact that 46% of pharmacists are located in very close geographic proximity to each other. That is one reason why we have been looking at the structure of delivery of community pharmacy. On the one hand, we absolutely recognise that in rural areas we must have community pharmacies close by, and we want them to be much more integrated with healthcare delivery; on the other, there must be a question mark about the structure of community pharmacy. The number of outlets has grown from 9,000 to 11,500 in the past seven or eight years, which is a huge increase. Much of that increase has come from people setting up shop in very close proximity to existing pharmacies. It is right that we look at the whole delivery of healthcare by pharmacies, and it will be interesting to see what emerges from the current consultation.
State Pension (Amendment) Regulations 2016
(8 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Altmann
That the Grand Committee do consider the draft State Pension (Amendment) Regulations 2016
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Altmann) (Con)
My Lords, I shall speak also to the draft Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order 2016. In my view, the provisions in the order and the regulations are compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. Together, these statutory instruments demonstrate the Government’s continuing commitment to support those who have worked hard all their lives, paid into the system and done the right thing to provide them with dignity and security in old age.
Let me first address the issue of those social security rates which are linked to the rise in prices. This includes the additional elements of the current state pension, working-age benefits, carer’s benefits and benefits which contribute to the extra costs that may arise as the result of a disability or health condition.
Last year, the relevant headline rate of inflation, the September consumer prices index, stood at -0.1%, which means that price-indexed benefits have retained their value in relation to the general level of prices. These benefit rates will therefore remain unchanged for 2016-17 and have not been included in the uprating order this year. For the same reason, the Government have not laid a draft guaranteed minimum pensions increase order.
I add that the Government intend to bring forward additional secondary legislation to adjust rates and thresholds within certain social security benefits that would usually be covered by an uprating order. These include adjustments to pensioner premiums within working-age benefits, pensioner amounts in housing benefit, the level of savings credit and non-dependent deductions. We will be laying these regulations, which will be subject to the negative procedure, before Parliament in due course.
As for those rates that are included in the uprating order, this Government continue to stand by their commitment to the triple-lock guarantee, by which the current basic state pension is uprated by the highest of earnings, prices or 2.5%. This year, the increase in average earnings has been 2.9%, more than inflation and more than 2.5%. This means that from April 2016 the rate of the basic state pension for a single person will increase by 2.9%—that is, £3.35, to £119.30 a week, the biggest real-terms increase of the basic state pension since 2001. Therefore, from April 2016 the full basic state pension will be more than £1,100 a year higher in 2016-17 compared to the start of the previous Parliament. We estimate that the basic state pension will be around 18.1% of average earnings, one of its highest levels relative to earnings for more than two decades and in contrast to the low of 15.8% which it reached in 2008-09.
This Government continue to protect the poorest pensioners. The pension credit standard minimum guarantee, the means-tested threshold below which pensioner income need not fall, will rise in line with average earnings at 2.9%, so that from April the single person threshold of this safety-net benefit will rise by £4.40 to £155.60 a week and will be the biggest real-terms increase since its introduction. Pensioner poverty now stands at one of its lowest rates since comparable records began. Despite the difficult economic decisions that we have had to take, I am pleased to say that this Government are spending an extra £2.1 billion in 2016-17 on supporting pensioners who have worked hard and done the right thing while continuing to protect the poorest pensioners.
The state pension regulations set the new state pension full rate that will apply from April 2016 at £155.65 per week, equivalent to more than £8,000 per year. This will mean that the new state pension will therefore stand at 23.6% of average earnings, and I am pleased to confirm that the triple lock will apply to this full rate for the remainder of this Parliament. Our reforms will see the complicated state pension system become clearer and fairer, providing a solid foundation on which people can build up their retirement savings. They will lift many more pensioner incomes above the basic means-tested threshold for the pension credit standard minimum guarantee.
The new state pension will see many groups better off than they would be on the current system. Around 650,000 women who reach state pension age in the first 10 years can expect to receive, on average, more than £400 a year more than under the current system. Around three-quarters of those reaching state pension age will be better off under the new system by 2030. Carers, lower-earners and self-employed people will also benefit under the reformed system. However, we are ensuring that the reforms in the new state pension cost no more than the present system.
In conclusion, these measures demonstrate the Government’s overall commitment to support current pensioners by increasing their basic state pension through the triple lock, to protect the poorest pensioners by raising their guaranteed minimum income and to reform the state pension system so that it is clearer and fairer for future pensioners. Despite the tough and difficult decisions we have had to take, the Government are rewarding pensioners who have worked hard by providing them with a secure and dignified retirement. On that basis, I beg to move.
Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, for her explanation of these regulations and the uprating order. I thank the Minister also for the follow-up communication dealing with some outstanding points from earlier regulations and note the efforts to be made to publicise the availability of national insurance credits for spouses and civil partners who accompany Armed Forces personnel on overseas postings.
As we have heard, the regulations set the full rate of the new state pension at £155.65. I will say more about this later. The uprating order covers the obligation under Section 150A of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 for the Secretary of State to review certain benefits and uprate by reference to earnings if they do not maintain their value. We are advised that the annual growth in average weekly earnings for the quarter ending in July 2015 was 2.9%. This is therefore applied to relevant benefits.
As far as Section 150 of that Act is concerned, we are advised that the uprating order does not need to include any benefits because these benefits have maintained their value in relation to prices, given that the CPI for the 12-month period ending in September 2015—which was available from mid-October, I think—showed a marginal negative growth rate. This seems to overlap with the benefits freeze in the Welfare Reform and Work Bill, a freeze that extended for four years the previously announced two-year restriction on certain working-age benefits. The Minister will be able to confirm that not all the benefits that are not uprated in this order have been the subject of the freeze provided for in the Bill. These include—I think the Minister referred to them—attendance allowance, carer’s allowance, DLA, ESA, statutory adoption pay, statutory maternity pay, statutory paternity pay, and PIP.
When we discussed these matters the Government made much of certain disability benefits being outside the freeze. The briefing note provided to us when we were considering the Bill—at a time when the CPI rate must have been known—nevertheless stated:
“To continue to ensure we protect the most vulnerable we are exempting benefits for pensioners, benefits relating to the additional costs of disability and care and statutory payments”.
In the event, many pensioner and disability costs are not to be uprated, for 2016-17 at least. Can the Minister tell us what assessment has been made of the appropriateness of using CPI as a measure of the additional costs incurred by those with a disability, so that the Government can be satisfied that the vulnerable are being protected?
Baroness Altmann
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for his observations, and I would like to help set some of the record straight or clear up any confusion. He asked about what he called a “freeze”. The fact that some of the benefits are not changing is purely a reflection of the fact that they are linked to prices and prices fell. I assure him that uprating will continue as inflation picks up, so that these benefits will continue to increase in line with any rise in prices in the coming years. This is not a freeze on these particular benefits.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
It is not a freeze on these particular benefits, but they are not being uprated. How would the Minister describe that? That is the first point. On the perhaps more substantive point, which I recognise does not include the specific freeze in the Bill, what judgment have the Government made about the impact of not uprating and the extent to which CPI is relevant to the extra costs of those who claim DLA or PIP, not the generality of benefits?
Baroness Altmann
As I have said, benefits such as PIP, DLA and attendance allowance will be uprated in future years, when there is inflation, but prices have fallen over the past year. I can confirm, by the way, that SERPS, S2P and the other benefits are included in this. The official measure of inflation is CPI, and that is the measure required to be used for uprating benefits. CPI fell last year, so there is a 0.1% real-terms increase in these benefits, and as and when inflation increases in the future, these benefits will be increased to take account of the rise in prices, as is required. Earnings-linked benefits will rise in line with earnings or the triple lock, depending on the requirements of the benefit.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I am sorry; I do not intend to get up again, unless really provoked. I think the Minister said that the benefits had to be uprated in line with CPI. If the Government judged that to be an insufficient uprating—zero, in this case—because of what had happened to the costs of those concerned, is she saying that the Government would be precluded from uprating further or beyond the zero? Are they bound by that?
Baroness Altmann
As the noble Lord is aware, the Government would have discretion to increase by more, but the judgment is that the appropriate requirement this year is that these benefits be changed in line with inflation, or slightly above the movement in prices over the past year. I reiterate that this is not a freeze. It is not part of any benefits freeze; it is purely a function of the fact that these particular benefits rise in line with the change in the price level, as measured by CPI, which is the Government’s official inflation measure. On his particular question, Section 150A of the Social Security Administration Act does not allow for inclusion of these rates in the order, so the rates that will be increased will be taken by alternative powers. There is nothing untoward or underhand in any way; it is merely a function of how the legislation is framed.
Turning to the new state pension, the noble Lord is absolutely correct: communication is very important. One of the big communication challenges we all face is the perception that if people are not getting what is called the full rate of the new state pension, they are losing out. That is a misperception, and it is important that we try to help correct and overcome that. It is important that we help people understand that the new state pension is a totally new system. The full rate will apply to those who are only in the new system, but for those who have built up state pension under the previous system—the existing system—an allowance will be made for years in which they did not pay full national insurance because they were building up a private pension with some of the rebate for national insurance they received.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Will the Minister tell me what happens after 2030? What are the projections?
Baroness Altmann
I am coming on to that because it is important to understand that these reforms are designed to make the state pension system affordable and sustainable over the long term. We have an ageing population and an increasing number of expected future pensioners, which is good news. The proposal and the overall framework of our pension reforms, taken together, are to ensure that the state pension system is sustainable. Over the years from 2030 and certainly from the 2040s onwards, the general level of the state pension will be set at a base of around £8,000 a year in today’s money. On top of that, people will be expected to have built up a private pension under the auto-enrolment reforms. It is true that in the 2030s and mainly from the 2040s onwards, the general level of the state pension will not be as generous as it would have been if the current system had been sustained. However, the current system is not sustainable. That is expected to be combined with a better private pension to ensure adequate pension provision—indeed, better pension provision—for more pensioners in future because the state pension system will not penalise private savings in the way it currently does for those who are going to end up in the bottom half of the pensioner income distribution in later life.
The new framework, with a base level of state pension that is not earnings-linked, topped up by a good private pension that comes from auto-enrolment, with help from the employer, which will be earnings-linked, is meant to make our system more sustainable and affordable. Having said that, as the noble Lord rightly said, there will be people who will need a safety net; for example, because they do not have the full 10 years required for any state pension and so end up with no state pension, or for other reasons. They will still have access to the means-tested pension credit, but that will be set below the full rate of the new state pension to maintain the incentive.
The question about the 5p differential between the pension credit minimum guarantee and the full rate of the new state pension was relevant to this point. We are committed to ensuring that the new state pension is above the pension credit standard minimum guarantee, but it is also important to remember that the 2012-13 illustrative rate for the new state pension was £144 a week, while the pension credit standard minimum guarantee for a single person was expected to be £142.70 a week. Since then, we have increased the pension credit standard minimum guarantee by the full cash increase given to the basic state pension, so that the poorest pensioners benefit from the triple lock as well. That means that the pension credit standard minimum guarantee has grown faster than the new state pension illustrative rate.
As far as the savings credit is concerned, it is true that the savings credit maximum rate is being reduced, but this should be more than offset by the increase in the basic state pension, and the triple lock. As well as being catered for, depending on what happens to each individual element of a pensioner’s income, the fact that the maximum savings credit is falling by approximately £2 a week will be more than offset by the £4 or £3.35 increase. Our forecasts are that pensioners will, on average, still be £2 a week better off in cash terms. I am assured that there will be absolutely no cash losers from this. The expectation is that the poorest pensioners will still see an increase in their overall income.
The noble Lord also asked about the rebate savings from contracting out. It is true that the additional national insurance revenue raised by the withdrawal of the contracting-out rebate will be received by the Government. However, it will be received by the Treasury; it will not flow to the DWP. It is not expected to be spent on the state pension; otherwise, it would mean that significantly more would be spent on new, rather than existing, pensioners, which was never the intention of these reforms. It is a matter for the Treasury how it allocates the departmental funds that it raises after the removal of the rebate and how that revenue is subsequently spent.
I think that that covers the points raised, if I am not mistaken.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I am grateful to the Minister for a very full response on most issues. Unless I missed it, I do not think she dealt with those who may have no entitlement to the equivalent of the basic state pension, or with transitional protection. We touched on those paying reduced national insurance contributions before 1977, which might be one category, but is that it? Is that all the transitional protection that will be available?
Baroness Altmann
I apologise. I thought that the noble Lord had, in a way, answered his own question by saying that there is transitional protection for those women who have paid the married women’s stamp—the reduced rate election. There is also protection for Armed Forces spouses, who will get credits in the system. It is also the case that some people might have inherited a pension from a spouse but no longer will under the new system because the new state pension will treat individuals in their own right. It is very difficult for us to predict who will become widowed. However, as the noble Lord rightly said, this will form an important part of the communications on the new state pension: to explain that in future most people—as I say, there will be exceptions for the Armed Forces and the married women’s stamp—will be treated for state pension purposes on the basis of their own record, rather than being assumed to be able to inherit or transport an entitlement from a partner.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Just to be clear on that point, my understanding is that the Government have estimated that up to 2030 some 290,000 people will be affected by the withdrawal of that opportunity. I understand what the Minister has said about those who paid reduced national insurance contributions before 1977 and those accompanying armed services personnel, but how many of those 290,000 people does that cater for? What is the level of the transitional protection likely to be for those who paid reduced national insurance contributions before 1977?
Baroness Altmann
I do not have the breakdown, but I am happy to write to the noble Lord with whatever figures we can give him to satisfy him on that particular request. Pension credit remains for anybody who does not have sufficient income to bring them up to the £155.60, which is usually far more than the pension that one would have inherited. Under the new state pension, widows or widowers will also inherit the protected payment that their previous partners would have been able to build up under the new state pension system rules.
I thank the noble Lord for his contribution to this important debate. This Government are taking the necessary steps to protect pensioners, many of whom have worked hard all their lives and are no longer in a position to increase their income through work. Our triple lock, our protections for the poorest pensioners and our new state pension reforms mean that we will be able to provide pensioners with dignity and security in their retirement.
Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order 2016
(8 years, 2 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Altmann
That the Grand Committee do consider the draft Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order 2016
Housing: Affordable Housing
(8 years, 2 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Lord Shipley
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the affordability of homes under their proposed extension to the right-to-buy scheme and their starter homes proposals.
Lord Shipley (LD)
My Lords, I am grateful for this opportunity to speak to this Question for Short Debate. I should at the outset declare my vice-presidency of the Local Government Association. This QSD was tabled three months ago, and it is fortuitous that it has come up for debate at this point because the Housing and Planning Bill is in Committee.
This QSD asks what assessment the Government have made of the affordability of homes under their proposed extension to the right-to-buy scheme and their starter homes proposals. By affordability, I mean what dictionaries tell us affordability means: people having the resources to pay for a product or service.
Of all the factors that enable people to enjoy a fulfilling life, a decent and secure home is central. Too many people do not have that and too many cannot even aspire to it. I have come to the conclusion that the Government do not actually understand that. If they did, they would be building more homes for rent. Clause 143 of the Housing and Planning Bill defines affordable housing as,
“a new dwelling in England … to be made available for people whose needs are not adequately served by the commercial housing market or … a starter home”,
within the meaning of the Bill. However, so much of the evidence we have tells us that the Government’s proposals in the Housing and Planning Bill will not help us to solve the problems of affordability or access to decent rented housing for the many people who do not earn enough to buy their own home. That is because house prices are so high and not enough new homes are going to be built over the next few years. The Government have admitted on several occasions that their plan to build 200,000 homes a year to 2021 will meet only the projected increase in the number of households over that period. In other words, the current housing crisis will remain unaddressed.
Average house prices are now £288,000 outside London and £540,000 in London, which is several times average incomes. This is not just a London problem; it is a problem right across the country and impacts on all parts of England where for so many home ownership remains a dream. House prices are predicted to rise by up to 20% in the next few years, so in no sense can these houses be deemed affordable even at the lower end of the market for the vast majority of people who are currently renting or who are living in a family home. The consequence of this policy is that there are 1.6 million people on housing waiting lists in the UK, with 9 million people living in private rented accommodation, including 1.3 million families with children.
The lack of social housing for rent and affordable houses for purchase has driven more people into the private rented sector. There are now more people living in the private rented sector than in social housing for the first time. Thirty per cent of private rented households contain children, and people in this sector pay higher rents and have much less security than other tenures.
The truth is that we are building too few homes and, with the Government depending too much on owner-occupation to the detriment of expanding the social rented sector, the aim of giving every family the stability and dignity of a decent home cannot be achieved. To stand a chance of doing so would require 300,000 extra homes to be built annually rather than the 200,000 which the Government plan. What is worse is that the Government, in producing a target figure of 1 million new homes by 2021, have not published any longer-term projections about how many houses they plan to ensure are built, nor do they tell us the net figure of new homes taking into account demolitions.
Housing is too important to rely on short-term planning. We need 300,000 new homes a year, and I wonder whether the Government have grasped that. Might they look again at creating a housing investment bank to provide long-term capital for projects? Might they look again at creating more garden cities in areas where there is local support?
Current government policy is driven by two new policies: starter homes and the right to buy housing association properties, with funding being made available by the sale of higher-value council homes. The housing announcements in the 2015 spending review included a doubling of the housing budget, which is welcome. It is not enough, but the sense of direction is right in terms of spending. The review also established that there would be 400,000 new affordable homes to buy by 2020—half would be starter homes and 135,000 Help to Buy shared ownership. I welcome that support for Help to Buy shared ownership schemes. However, the trouble is that this simply does not represent enough new homes, and there is no sign of any understanding of the need to build new homes in England for rent. In fact, we will see a reduction in the number of new homes for rent, as starter homes to buy will be built instead of them. First, councils will be required first to sell off their higher-value properties to help to fund the right to buy of housing association properties and, secondly, councils will lose rights under Section 106 agreements and the community infrastructure levy to build more homes for rent.
As we know, starter homes are new properties for first-time buyers under the age of 40, who are entitled to a 20% discount off the market price. The Government have set a target of 200,000 starter homes during this Parliament, which is expected to deliver most of their affordable housing goal. Shelter has calculated that on average in England a deposit of £40,000 and a salary of £50,000 will be necessary to afford a starter home. In London, buyers would need a deposit of £98,000 and a salary of £77,000. These are very large sums of money. Shelter has also suggested that, based on the purchase price caps of £450,000 in Greater London and £250,000 outside Greater London, starter homes will be unaffordable in 58% of local authorities to households on average income and in 98% of local authorities to households on the national living wage. What assessment have the Government done of this compelling evidence provided by Shelter?
I have concluded that, in practice, starter homes are for renters who are higher earners or who have access to private capital and that those starter homes will replace homes with affordable rent levels for those who are less well off. For those who buy a starter home, there could well be a substantial profit if, as forecast, house prices continue to rise. That is because they will be able to sell it at market value just five years after buying it. There is a very strong case for starter homes to maintain a 20% sub-market rate for much longer than five years, so the benefit of a cheaper home can be passed on to others. There is a very serious risk that starter homes will be built at the expense of traditional affordable housing for sub-market rent and shared ownership. This would worsen the availability of low-cost housing, particularly in rural areas. Starter homes should be delivered in addition to affordable housing, not in place of it.
This brings me to the right to buy for housing association tenants, which will reduce the number of affordable homes for rent, given the way in which the Government are effecting the sale. It will then make things more difficult for those on the social housing waiting list and those for whom home ownership is not within reach. The Government have made no commitment to exempt housing association properties in rural communities, but they should. As I have said, the Government’s plan would require this right to buy to be funded by councils via an annual tax, which the Government expect them to finance by selling off high-value council homes. The current right-to-buy discounts are £104,000 in London and £78,000 outside London. I understand that the National Housing Federation has calculated that the extension could cost £11.6 billion. I wonder what the Government’s assessment of that figure is as well.
The forced sale of high-value council homes will reduce the number of low-rent social homes in the places they are needed most and will make things worse for the 1.6 million people on social housing waiting lists. It will also jeopardise new housebuilding because it will reduce councils’ capacity to borrow. It will also put any new council homes that are built at immediate risk of being forcibly sold if they are deemed to be high value. Crucially, there will be even fewer homes available for larger families.
In conclusion, all of this could see homelessness return to 1980s levels. It is already increasing and the Government’s failure to build for rent and to support adequately that category of housing is likely to see homelessness rise. I wonder what assessment the Government have done of the likely increase in the number of homeless people.
Everyone deserves a decent, affordable home to live in. I regret that many people are going to be priced out of the communities in which they grew up, due to rising house prices and rents. I am deeply concerned by the present Government’s housing reforms, which will lead to fewer new affordable homes for rent and a potential breakdown in community resilience by the selling off of affordable homes with no guarantee of replacement in the same place.
Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Lord deserves our thanks for securing this curtain-raiser to Committee stage of the Bill, when we will be considering the Government’s proposals. This debate provides a welcome opportunity for an initial exploration of the Government’s proposals in relation to right to buy and starter homes, which will of course be subject to much more detailed scrutiny as the Bill progresses.
Ministers trumpet their policies as making more affordable homes available for purchase for both council tenants and social housing tenants under right to buy, although for the time being housing associations will not be compelled to sell. If this Government remain in office, I believe that they will ultimately extend compulsion to that sector, as they have in the municipal sector. In addition, there is the starter homes scheme, with its attendant 20% discount, to be funded, effectively, by the sale of existing high-value council housing.
The claim is that affordable homes will therefore become available for purchase. But, as the noble Lord has implied, affordability is an elastic concept. The coalition Government drove up council rents, deeming an affordable rent to be 80% of private sector rents. But given the chronic housing shortage and the boom in buy to let, which dramatically drove up prices and rents in the private sector, the definition of affordability is fundamentally flawed. Affordability must surely relate to what the would-be owner-occupier or tenant can reasonably be expected to pay, having regard to his or her income, not an artificial comparison with the market rate.
At Second Reading the Minister told us, in true Candide fashion, that all was for the best in the best of all possible housing worlds, because the average price of starter homes for first-time buyers was £226,000—or, after the discount, £169,000. The London figure after the discount was £291,000. But of course these were 2014 figures. Already they will have increased, I suggest, by around 5%. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has pointed to likely future increases. Under Help to Buy, the average price was £186,000.
I pointed out at Second Reading that in Newcastle the 5,900 applicants on the council’s housing list have average earnings of £20,000 a year, which would be enough to support a mortgage of only £70,000, leaving an effectively unbridgeable gap between that and the discounted purchase price which would apply outside London. Even the national average income of £26,000 would fall short of the amount required to obtain and sustain the required mortgage—and that is at the present historically very low levels of mortgage interest rates.
Ironically, in passing, we should note that a household income of £30,000 outside London, which could be a couple on the national minimum wage, would invoke the “pay to stay” provision for council housing. So what is the Government’s definition of affordability for both house purchase and rent relative to income? The LGA quotes a report by Savills that starter homes would be out of reach for all the people in need of affordable housing in 220 council areas.
What, furthermore, will we be getting in terms of space and energy efficiency in the 200,000 starter homes, given the contrast between what has been built here in recent years and what has been built on the continent? It is a question not just of numbers but also of quality.
In all of their claimed ambitions for more new homes the Government make no mention of council housing. Is it not the Government’s intention to phase out such provision completely through the right to buy, while at the same time forcing councils to cut rents, with dire consequences for the maintenance and improvement of the stock? In Newcastle's case that amounts to a loss over time of £593 million which could have been devoted to improving the stock. What are the Government’s intentions in relation to new council housing, and what is their assessment of the impact of the proposed alteration to the planning system, including permission in principle and the emphasis on starter and so-called affordable homes?
The implications, which are dire for councils, are also dire for housing associations. Inside Housing magazine’s survey of 135 English associations found that 53% think it likely that they will seek to renegotiate existing agreements to build homes for affordable— sub-market, as they would define it—rents. Already a small scheme in my own ward has fallen through, and another has been preserved only by changing the type of housing and reducing the size of the property.
There will also be an impact on what councils can achieve under Section 106 agreements. The Government’s own figures suggest that for every 100 starter homes built, between 56 and 71 affordable council and social rented homes will not be built. This represents, over the four years of the starter homes scheme, a reduction of around 50% compared to the previous four years.
Reference was made at Second Reading to the position of supported housing and specialist housing, where the LGA—I declare my interest as a vice-president, along with my other local authority interest—is calling for Government, councils and housing associations to identify categories of properties to be exempted from the right to buy. What is the Government's response on this issue? Will the Government require housing associations to consult local councils on the exercise of right to buy in their sector, given that, for the time being, this is voluntary—not compulsory—and given the need in many areas to ensure that replacements are provided in the locality?
Last Friday the Select Committee on National Policy for the Built Environment published a report with the apt title of Building better places. It affirms that:
“We do not believe the Government can deliver the stepchange required for housing supply without taking measures to allow local authorities and housing associations each to play their full part in delivering new homes”.
The committee calls on the Government to ensure that councils are able to fulfil their potential as direct builders of new mixed-tenure housing and to review the restrictions on borrowing and the effect of social housing rent increases. It also calls for a revision of the proposal to require starter homes on every developable site, and argues that councils should have the right to prioritise long-term affordable housing over starter homes where appropriate. Will we have the Government's response to this important publication before we reach Report on the Bill? Perhaps the Minister could also tell us when we might expect to see the draft regulations through which it intends to implement so many of the provisions of this highly controversial measure.
Baroness Thornhill (LD)
My Lords, I declare my interest as a deputy chair of the Local Government Association.
I will be very brief and say that I agree with noble Lords and with much of what was said at Second Reading. There will be much more to come. I shall assume that the generic arguments have already been made—not least by the two noble Lords ahead of me—and shall confine my remarks to my main concern, which is that building starter homes instead of, not as well as, social housing will lead to a reduction in homes that are genuinely affordable. Over time—and for me this is the real crunch of the Bill, as I genuinely believe it to be short-sighted and short-term—it will undermine the precious balance of communities that is essential for cohesion and sustainability. Redefining the problem does not solve it.
Will the Government take notice of the Savills research while the Bill goes through Committee? It has already been quoted. It is fairly conclusive in saying that starter homes will be out of the reach of people in 67% of council areas.
I draw the Minister’s attention to a specific issue regarding the price cap of £250,000 outside London. In my borough of Watford, £250,000 will not buy very much. You may be lucky to get a studio flat with a “bed space”—a new concept that I had not come across until I started looking—but there are not many of them. In my home town of Preston, that would buy a decent family home. That is what worries me about the Bill: the housing market is so diverse that one size does not fit all, yet everything in the Bill appears to be centralising and standardising. Councils must be able to retain some flexibility over what is built in their areas, whereas the Bill appears to be undermining that.
That is the case not least in planning provisions in the Bill, which we have not spoken about much. It promotes significant measures reserved to the Secretary of State. This is in sharp contrast to the rhetoric we had during the coalition, with the notion of local determination and acceptance of development by local people through the neighbourhood planning process. This is a real reversal of previous rhetoric used when the current national planning framework was introduced.
We know that London is a hot spot for costs, but there are those on the outer ring of London who are also suffering high prices. Will the Government consider an outer-ring cap? There are many areas just outside London with housing shortages and high prices. Somewhere between the £250,000 and £450,000 prices might help.
There is a mixed picture on affordability, but there is little argument that those whom this policy will help—if it were stated upfront as a political aspiration, that would at least be honest—are the reasonably well-off with parents who can afford the required deposit, which in my area will be £25,000 if it is a 10% deposit. Those same people are currently renting and lament that they cannot rent at current levels and save for a deposit. Indeed, if they have that deposit and then have the mortgage for the rest, they will need a combined income of £60,000 to take on the mortgage on a 3.5 multiplier. That is considerably more than the £30,000 deemed to be, in the words of the Minister, a high salary for those who fall foul of the “pay to stay” policy. That is a huge inconsistency and discrepancy.
At this point, enter mum and dad, or even grandparents, which is positive news for those fortunate folk, but not for the many for whom this is not remotely feasible. It has been cynically said by many that this is a cash windfall to middle-class families, but in truth when people on an average wage struggle to afford the cost of a home even after a large government subsidy, the scale of the issue is truly laid bare. The starter homes programme therefore makes only some homes 20% less expensive, rather than delivering homes that are genuinely affordable and in a quantity to make the difference after decades of underfunding.
Setting affordability aside—I am sure that there will be many arguments about that—I am deeply concerned that starter homes will be the only game in town when it comes to providing the not-so-affordable homes, while the need for real affordable homes remains unabated. We should also look at the language we use around “affordable” and “social”. We need to clarify that.
The change during the Thatcher years for developers to provide social housing by what we now call Section 106 contributions has meant a year-on-year decline in the number of homes available at social rent levels. Coupled with the right to buy—whatever your political views on that policy—that change has contributed to that decline. We know that only one in 10 right-to-buy properties has been replaced by a similar home.
Much more recently, developers were given an opportunity to opt out of providing social housing by claiming to local councils that the financial viability of their scheme was at risk if they had to provide it. This has happened in many councils all over the country. They could challenge the local authority, and have been doing so. In Watford, we have had to employ specialist housing advice and support to argue those cases and fight for much-needed social housing in my area—at considerable cost, money which I would have preferred to use for housing.
If starter homes count as affordable homes, there will be no provision of social housing for rent under Section 106. The key thing is flexibility for councils to determine where, what and when, rather than starter homes being the only priority.
I will learn to time my speeches better; my apologies, colleagues.
Baroness Grender (LD)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Shipley for introducing this timely debate, and other noble Lords for indulging me by allowing me to speak in what I believe is called the gap. I shall speak very briefly about those on the sharpest end of the affordability issue, who are of course homeless people and, in particular, the single homeless. They are the ones at the end of the chain who suffer and whom we need to bear in mind as we discuss the housing Bill.
I reference Homeless Link, which undertook an extensive survey and is the umbrella body for all homelessness organisations. It found that 25% of people in some accommodation projects were ready to move on. These will typically be people aged between 18 and 25—49% of them are—and three in 10 are women. They are ready to move on, but there is no move-on accommodation available for them. Of this group, 27% have been waiting for six months or longer. Forty-eight per cent of projects overseen and surveyed by Homeless Link reported that the main barrier was a lack of suitable accommodation to move to, and 14% of those projects typically cite a lack of affordable housing as the main barrier to their clients’ moving.
Any of us who have studied housing systems elsewhere in the world—for instance, in the US—would hate to find ourselves going down the route of not having multiple tenures in a community so that communities can work together. That means that single homeless people can move into areas where there is affordable rent and some kind of move-on accommodation available to them.
I simply ask that, as we continue to discuss the Bill, we continue to bear those people in mind.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, first, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, on securing this Question for Short Debate and declare an interest as a local councillor in the London Borough of Lewisham. Everyone here supports the concept of being able to buy your own home if that is what you want to do, but that must be part of a wider policy of providing homes of different tenures to meet people’s needs, underpinned by homes of good quality.
We are in the midst of a housing crisis in the UK and are considering the Housing and Planning Bill, which is a generally dreadful piece of legislation and a politically motivated attack on social housing that will do little of what the hype says it will deliver. I very much agree with the points the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, made in that respect.
The Question before the Grand Committee today is about the affordability of homes under the extension of the right-to-buy scheme and the starter home proposals. The first challenge for the Government is to make sure that their sums add up. Measures to help people own their own homes are to be welcomed, but the starter homes programme has hit a number of problems and appears to be a one-off gimmick rather than a thought-through policy that will remain in place for many years, as my noble friend Lord Beecham said. I would have hoped that the starter homes programme, a flagship policy of the Government, would enable people on modest or low incomes to own their own homes, but it plainly does not do that in its present form.
Research from Shelter, to which the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, referred, has shown that the programme will not help the majority of people on the new national living wage, which is another flagship policy of the Government. Starter homes for families earning average wages will be unaffordable in more than half of local authority areas across the country in 2020. Families on the new national living wage will be able to afford a starter home in only 2% of local authority areas. Single people on low or average wages will struggle to afford a starter home in 2020 in the majority of local authority areas. Even those on a higher than average salary will be restricted from being able to afford to buy in three-quarters of local authority areas. London, the south-east and the east have the lowest number of areas where affordable starter homes could be built under the scheme, despite being among the highest areas for demand.
There is a conflict in the scheme. Behind the hype, the reality is that it is a complete failure in helping people on modest incomes to buy their own home. Can the noble Baroness explain to the Grand Committee how this policy helps people earning the Government’s flagship living wage to own their own home? Can she further confirm for the record how the scheme is to be funded? Is it by diverting funding from other forms of affordable housing funding, such as shared ownership or social rent, with no additional funds being made available? Can she also explain why the discount is not for a much longer period or in perpetuity, to have a long-term effect in delivering the Government’s objectives?
Looking at the term “affordability” in a wider context, when sites are being considered in the green belt or on brownfield sites, what thought has been given to the provision of services such as roads, buses, shops and schools and to other infrastructure? Who will pay for all those essential requirements? Can the noble Baroness also set out her views on the desirability of having mixed tenure rather than developments all of one type of housing?
Moving on to the extension of the right to buy to housing association tenants, again, I support people being able to own their own homes, but the funding method here makes this programme of very questionable affordability for the wider community, as well as for individuals, due to rising prices. As a matter of policy, this should be funded by the Government directly, not by a smash and grab raid on so-called high-value local authority housing. There must be a duty on housing authorities carefully to consider the local housing need and make decisions accordingly. Forcing councils to sell homes and requiring them to make regular payments to fund another flagship government scheme does not seem very fair. It certainly does not seem very localist but, like the big society, localism is rarely mentioned by Ministers these days.
We must also not forget that a significant proportion of properties sold under the statutory right to buy have found their way into the private sector. In August 2015, Inside Housing published an analysis based on FOI requests, which found that 40% of ex-council homes were now in the private rented sector. That is not exactly a great achievement in terms of getting people to own their own home. It also has a detrimental effect on the housing benefit bill, which is paid for by the taxpayer.
I suggest that selling public sector housing only for it to become more expensive in the private rented sector—and of lower quality, with more people living there and with upkeep and maintenance issues—runs contrary to everything that the Government say about the dream of owning your own home. The dream of owning your own home is being thwarted by the nightmare of ever-increasing rents in the booming private rented sector, thanks to government policy which is preventing people from living in a more affordable home and saving for a deposit to own their own home, something to which the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, referred.
The scheme is another central government policy that should be funded from central government resources. Why do the Government think it is acceptable to fund these housing policies in the way they propose? How is reducing social rented sector housing, with its fairer rent levels, and increasing the private rented sector, with its soaring rents, helping individuals to own their own home? How is it helping the wider community to thrive when people are forced out of certain communities as they become unaffordable to live in for people on low or modest incomes? How does it help London, for example, to remain one of the greatest cities in the world if we create a London of two halves?
It would also be helpful if the noble Baroness could confirm who thinks up these policies and schemes— I would like to meet them. We all want to increase home ownership, and colleagues on these Benches want to help people on low and modest incomes achieve that dream. It is regrettable that nothing in the Government’s proposals suggest that they want to do the same.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for securing it at what appears to be a very timely moment. I am sure waiting for three months has been worth it.
This Government have a good record on affordable housing delivery. Between 2011 and 2015, 193,000 affordable homes have been delivered in England, which exceeded our target by 23,000. The spending review announced that we will invest £8 billion to deliver a further 400,000 affordable housing starts. Councils will continue to support delivery of a range of affordable housing. A number of noble Lords brought this point up—it is not just about starter homes but about a range of different types of affordable housing. Councils are in the best position to bring forward more land for affordable housing.
I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, who brought up council housing and asked what our aspirations were for it. More council housing has been built since 2010 than in the previous 13 years, and 2014 saw the highest number of council housing starts for 23 years. However, we are clear on prioritising support for low-cost home ownership. We want current and future generations to experience the benefits of owning their own homes, and I believe our reforms are the best way to achieve this.
The right to buy has already helped 2 million families to realise their dream of owning a home. We reinvigorated it in 2012, and as a result sales have jumped from 2,600 in 2011-12 to 12,300 in 2014-15. This shows that these realistic discounts have enabled significantly more people to realise their home ownership dreams—I see my noble friend Lord Young to my right, who asked a Question earlier about housing. A question was asked in Committee about the decline in home ownership. Last week saw a report that said that, for the first time, decline had halted. Hopefully, we are on an upward trajectory.
Lord Beecham
Could the Minister tell us how many of the houses that were sold were replaced?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I will come to the figure on replacements during my speech, if the noble Lord would bear with me.
Until now, the discounts available under right to buy have been available only to tenants in local authority properties and some former council properties. Extending these discounts to housing association tenants in England will end that unfairness and mean that up to 1.3 million more families will get a realistic chance to own their own home. Working with the National Housing Federation, we have secured a voluntary agreement with housing associations to give their tenants the opportunity to buy their own homes with an equivalent discount to the right to buy.
As set out in the voluntary agreement with the National Housing Federation, tenants of housing associations will be eligible for the equivalent discounts that are available under the right to buy of up to £77,900, or £103,900 within London. The extended right to buy will make home ownership affordable for the first time for many more housing association tenants. The Government have been clear that the sale of high-value vacant council housing—I stress vacant—will pay for the cost of compensating housing associations for the discount.
Starter homes will provide an affordable step into home ownership by offering young first-time buyers a minimum 20% discount on a new home. This model gives purchasers the benefit of immediate ownership and, importantly, will help them achieve the step up to their second home in due course. A number of noble Lords made the point about securing that discount in perpetuity. We do not want people five years down the line—or however long it is before they sell their house—to suddenly be at a disadvantage and find there is another cliff for them to overcome. We have decided not to insist on that in perpetuity discount to allow people to step up on the housing market.
We expect starter homes to be valued at below the average first-time buyer price for the local area. Developers must build them for sale to young first-time buyers and will ensure that they price them for this market. With a 20% discount, average market prices for homes bought by first-time buyers in the third quarter of 2015 could be reduced to £145,000 across England, excluding London, enabling more first-time buyers to buy their own home. We have examined affordability of starter homes to those who are currently in the private rented sector. If they were to buy in the lower quartile of the first-time buyer market, outside of London, up to 60% of households, currently renting privately, would be able to secure a mortgage on a starter home, compared with 45% who could buy a similar property at full market value.
There are a number of different points to make about the market, including saving for a deposit through a Help to Buy ISA. We are also looking at the possibility of allowing a Help to Buy equity loan to be offered on a starter home to ensure that a first-time buyer needs only a 5% deposit.
Starter homes are just one part of our package of affordable housing options. They will help to address a real problem of access to home ownership for the under-40s, the one demographic excluded from this market.
The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked about affordable rent. As we have discussed already under the housing Bill, £1.6 billion has been put aside for houses for affordable rent. That will be grant funded, so they are absolutely guaranteed to come on to the market. These are minimum positions for this sector, because local authorities may well do a deal with developers to produce more—and, of course, there is the £4.1 billion that we have put aside for 135,000 shared ownership houses, which will require a deposit of something like £1,400. That may be unaffordable for some people, but I think for most people it will be within the scope of what they can afford.
The noble Lord also made a point about garden cities. The Government are certainly not closed to suggestions about proposals for garden cities; they are a very good way to build a lot of houses and, in fact, to build sustainable communities within certain areas. I know of a number of areas where people are very keen to bring such proposals forward.
A number of noble Lords made the point about the £450,000 cap in London and £250,000 cap outside of London. A cap is precisely what it is—it is not an average house price. Many properties will fall well below that cap, and the Government will keep an eye out to make sure that housebuilders do not abuse that provision for first-time buyers for starter homes.
The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, made the point about the forced sale of high-value assets. The high-value assets sales will not be for occupied properties but for vacant properties at the very top of the market, and details of that will come out in due course. He also made the point about homelessness going to 1980s levels. Homelessness is at less than half of the 2004 peak, and the Government are maintaining spending centrally and locally on homelessness prevention. The noble Baroness, Lady Grender, talked about continuing to discuss this issue and bear it in mind as we go through the housing Bill. I think that the last time we had a debate on this matter, I mentioned the rough sleeping social impact bond, which we intend to bring forward. We have brought forward a homelessness SIB, which was the first in the world.
The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, also talked about replacement of property in the local area. This is what we fully expect: that a housing association will want to build in the local area.
The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, talked about 53% of housing associations renegotiating right-to-buy agreements. If that happens he will, I am sure, reiterate his words to me; we have, however, no evidence that it will. This agreement was made in good faith and the first five pilot housing associations are already starting on it. He also asked how the exemptions on the right to buy would work. We are very keen that these exemptions are negotiated and agreed locally in a form that is best for the local area.
The noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, talked about starter homes being the only game in town. They are a priority for the Government because of the demographic group that has fallen out of home ownership, but they are not the only game in town. Affordable homes for rent, shared ownership, custom build—these will all be promoted in the housing Bill. She mentioned flexibility for councils, and I totally agree—other than the duty in relation to starter homes, councils will have flexibility on what is best for their areas.
I am conscious of the time, but I had better answer the questions of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, before I get told off again. He asked about the quality of housing. That is a very good point. Design quality will be a focus of my noble friend Lord Heseltine in estates regeneration. We are not trying to gentrify estates; we are trying to give people on regenerated estates the quality of life that they deserve.
The noble Lord also asked whether starter homes are a gimmick. They are not a gimmick. We recognise that the under-40s are being increasingly precluded from the housing market and we want to reverse that position. He rightly made the point that historically, London and the south-east have been the hardest areas for people to own their own homes. That is why we are focusing so much on providing not just one-for-one replacement, but two-for-one replacement, for people accessing their own homes in London.
Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, talked about infrastructure funding in connection with some starter home projects. Infrastructure funding can be accessed through Section 106. He is right that CIL is not applicable here, although local authorities can negotiate Section 106 infrastructure funding if it is viable—we do not want to push developments out of viability. Finally—because I have gone well over time—he talked about social rented sector rents versus private sector rents. In fact, the percentage increase in the social rented sector has got far out of kilter with the private rented sector, and we have tried to address this through the Welfare Reform Bill, although some noble Lords will not agree with that approach at all.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
Would the Minister come back to me, perhaps in writing, with regard to people on the new national living wage, a big policy of the Government? They have no way of affording a starter home—a number of organisations have said so. How will the Government address that? The Minister also referred to the fact that, in addition to starter homes, other forms of housing would be supported. Will the Minister write to me about the sums involved?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I will certainly write to the noble Lord about the sums of money involved. I agree that not everybody will be able to afford a starter home, which is why we have so many products we intend to bring forward. For shared ownership, which I mentioned earlier, it could be that one needs a deposit of £1,400, which would suddenly make the prospect of home ownership—even if it is part ownership —far more of a possibility. I appreciate, however, that certainly in London the housing market is very expensive.
With that I will finish because I have gone three minutes over time. I did not want to neglect the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, because I did before, but I have a load of questions I have not answered, so perhaps I could write to noble Lords.
Lord Shipley
Before the Minister sits down, can I thank her for her reply? I hope that two things will be explained in writing. The first relates to the figures quoted from the National Housing Federation, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, Savills and Shelter. I believe those figures to be true. If the Government have had discussions with any of those organisations, or feel that other figures are correct, it would really help the Committee to know exactly the Government’s view of them. At the moment, I think all those figures are correct. If they have had discussions, could we know about them?
Secondly, will the Minister respond specifically on the issue of high-value council properties? I understand that there will be, either through regulation or perhaps in the Bill, some clarification about what “high value” actually means. I draw it to her attention that, by their very nature, larger homes tend to have a higher value and that larger homes are appropriate for larger families. Of course we understand that they will be sold only when not occupied, but if we end up with four-bedroom —or even more—properties being sold, it will help nobody.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Lord makes a good point. We would not want to get rid of all the four and five-bedroom high-value assets in an authority—meaning there would be no houses of that kind—so we have definitely thought about that. As for our discussions with Savills and others, I am certainly happy to write to all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate and place a copy of the letter in the Library.
House of Lords
Death of a Member: Lord Avebury
The Lord Speaker (Baroness D'Souza)
My Lords, I regret to inform the House of the death of the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, on 14 February. On behalf of the House, I extend our condolences to the noble Lord’s family and friends.
Retirement of a Member: Baroness Linklater of Butterstone
The Lord Speaker (Baroness D'Souza)
My Lords, I notify the House of the retirement with effect from 12 February of the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater of Butterstone, pursuant to Section 1 of the House of Lords Reform Act 2014. On behalf of the House, I thank her for her much-valued service to the House.
Health: Adult Psychiatric Care
(8 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Crisp
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to the report Old Problems, New Solutions: Improving acute psychiatric care for adults in England.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Prior of Brampton) (Con)
My Lords, the Government very much welcome this report and are considering its recommendations. We have asked NHS England to reduce out-of-area treatments and eliminate their inappropriate use. NHS England published its independent Mental Health Taskforce report last week, backed by a £1 billion investment announced in January. NHS England will develop standards on access to mental health treatment.
Lord Crisp (CB)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply, and I am delighted to see the commitment to parity of esteem between mental and physical health and to the funding allocated last week. Parity of esteem means equal standards for people with mental and physical conditions. The report recommends that requiring people to travel long distances to be treated should be phased out within 18 months, and there is evidence as to why that is a good target; and yet the Government have indicated in their response to the task force that it would take four years to phase it out. Will the Minister explain why that is and say whether there is scope for the Government to reconsider the timing?
Lord Prior of Brampton
My Lords, I reiterate my thanks to the noble Lord for his excellent report: it is 134 pages and reads very well and very quickly. It is obviously highly unsatisfactory that so many people have to travel long distances to get in-patient care. The noble Lord’s report shows that, in one month—in September, I think—500 people had to travel more than 50 kilometres to get to in-patient care. It is a priority for the Government and we are considering the noble Lord’s recommendations. I cannot give a commitment that we can reduce the four years to 18 months now. I can only repeat that we fully understand the importance of addressing this issue.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)
My Lords, the noble Lord’s report rightly points to the need to improve both in-patient care and alternative treatment in the community. Given that, as the report says, the cost of one adult acute bed is the same as that of treating 44 people at home, will the Government say what plans they have at this early stage to increase financial incentives to encourage commissioners to get the right balance of provision?
Lord Prior of Brampton
My Lords, if we can improve home treatment and crisis resolution at home it will free up in-patient beds and solve the other problem as well, as people will have to travel less far. That is absolutely critical. I cannot tell the noble Baroness today what NHS England is proposing to do with financial incentives, but I can reiterate that treating more people outside hospital, at home, is a priority for the Government.
Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister realise that there are real problems in many regions? I chair a charity which deals with the most vulnerable—people with complex needs. We have evidence that the number of people whose mental health needs have increased has risen significantly over the past five years, and yet three centres in Tyneside—both residential and day care—which deal with the mentally ill are closing this year. How will we meet those people’s needs in such circumstances?
Lord Prior of Brampton
My Lords, reading the noble Lord’s report, I was struck that he said in the foreword that he went through times when he was very depressed and times when he was deeply impressed. In a way, that sums up the mental health system—it is fragmented, and there is a high level of variation. We provide fantastic care in one place but terrible care for somebody else, and very often it is not related to cost. I do not know about the particular instances that the noble Baroness has referred to, but I can fully understand that in certain areas it is much worse than in others.
Lord Bradley (Lab)
My Lords, I declare my health interests. I, too, welcome the excellent report and recommendations by the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, and his commission, and also the report and recommendations of the Mental Health Taskforce published last week. I would be grateful for clarification from the Minister on the financial commitments that the Government have made on the crucial implementation of the recommendations of both reports. In particular, can he confirm that the announcement of £1 billion each year for mental health services begins in financial year 2016-17; that, for the next four years, that £1 billion will be additional to the £1.5 billion investment in child mental health services which has already been announced; and, finally, whether this £1 billion annually is additional money or part of the £8 billion which has already been announced and allocated to NHS England for all health services?
Lord Prior of Brampton
My Lords, that is a complicated question, or number of questions.
Lord Prior of Brampton
No, it is not very simple, or at least it is not simple to me; but then I perhaps have a smaller brain than the noble Lord opposite. It is certainly additional to the £1.5 billion for children and young people. I cannot tell the noble Lord now, without fear of making a mistake, whether it will be £1 billion every year from 2016-17 to 2021. It is certainly £1 billion in 2021. If it is all right, I will write to the noble Lord to confirm and clarify that.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)
How do the Government intend to monitor the efficacy of this investment, and against what performance indicators will this investment be audited?
Lord Prior of Brampton
My Lords, that is a very hard question to answer. The talking therapies, for example, seem to be effective in about 50% of the cases, and whether they are effective is clearly a clinical decision. As for other standards, we tend to rely, as the noble Baroness will know, on proxies such as waiting times and the four-hour standard, which the noble Lord recommended in his report. We are considering the introduction of a four-hour waiting-time standard for people suffering from psychotic problems, in the same way as we have for physical health.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)
My Lords, can I give the Minister an easy question? What discussions has he or any of his colleagues in the Department of Health had with his counterparts in the Scottish Administration to exchange experience and ideas?
Lord Prior of Brampton
My Lords, I am not aware that we have had any discussions in the Scotland Office. However, there is no doubt that in Scotland they are approaching quality improvement extremely effectively. I had a recent meeting with people who have been involved in that, so I can assure the noble Lord that, at that level, if we can learn things from what they are doing in Scotland, we will do so.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)
My Lords, will the Minister give an undertaking that the very good system of encouraging treatment at home is not at the expense of families where children are the primary carers? When children are trying to cope with someone in very difficult circumstances they are often alone for long periods and are unable to cope with a mother or father whose behaviour can even be frightening.
Lord Prior of Brampton
My Lords, the noble Baroness raises an important point. So much of this comes down to judgment, and so much of that judgment is judged with hindsight. We put a huge onus on clinicians and people working in health and social care to make the right judgments on where to treat people. In normal circumstances, where people can be treated at home rather than in an in-patient setting, that will be best; but there will be exceptional circumstances such as those that the noble Baroness mentioned, where it may not be.
Universities: Freedom of Speech
(8 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Deech
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure freedom of lawful speech at universities, in the light of recent disruptions to speeches.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
My Lords, the principles of academic freedom and freedom of speech at universities are enshrined in statute. Universities have a clear and unambiguous duty to ensure that legal and lawful views can be heard but, equally, can be robustly challenged and debated. We will continue to support fully those universities which show clear and strong leadership in doing this.
Baroness Deech (CB)
Since your Lordships debated this issue last November, incidents of intolerance and violence have continued on our campuses. For example, the silencing of a female Muslim reformer at Goldsmiths; smashed glass, fire alarms set off and the police called at King’s College London to stop an Israeli peace activist from speaking; Peter Tatchell at Canterbury and other examples. Will the Minister speak to the vice-chancellors at Universities UK to ensure that the law on freedom of speech is upheld and to ask whether the international reputation of our universities is being damaged? To what does she attribute the stifling of intellectual freedom in our universities now?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
The noble Baroness is absolutely right. There is clear guidance to universities about their responsibilities to ensure free and open debate on campus and we will give full support to university leaderships to ensure that legitimate and open debate within the law can take place. It is concerning that we have seen a number of incidents, as the noble Baroness said. Part of the beauty of going to university is the ability to debate, to have your views challenged and to challenge others. We must continue to support all universities in making sure that all students continue to have that opportunity.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)
My Lords, do the Government agree that criticism and debate about our religions should be part of freedom of speech at our universities, and indeed elsewhere, but that the lawful line is crossed when adherents to those religions are insulted for their beliefs? Is it not that that becomes incitement?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
Universities are uniquely placed to provide intellectual and robust challenge to narratives and they must continue to do this. Of course, students and academics have the right to protest peacefully but this cannot lead to intimidation, harassment or the silencing of those they disagree with. That must be stopped.
Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)
My Lords, if a proposed speech is known to be unlawful I would understand any appropriate restrictions, but would not succumbing to mob rule to deny freedom of expression be wholly contrary to the ethos and purpose of a university? I speak as a former chancellor of a university.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I entirely agree with the sentiments of the noble and learned Lord. Unfortunately, it has seemed at times that student unions have taken a somewhat inconsistent approach to freedom of speech—actively inviting speakers who promote intolerance but banning and silencing others. As I have said, the Government are supporting university leaderships to make sure that we preserve freedom of speech. It is hugely important and allows students the opportunity to challenge and debate ideas, which is part of the whole purpose of going to university.
The Lord Bishop of Worcester
My Lords, now is not the time for confessions but I would observe that as an undergraduate, I saw things in very black and white terms. I do not now, despite what might be suggested by my attire. I would have loved to have been rebuked by Parliament as an undergraduate. Does the Minister agree that in intervening in situations such as these, we run the risk of being counterproductive?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
Universities are autonomous bodies. As I have already said, students and academics have the right to protest peacefully, and we cannot quash freedom of speech. That is why, as I said, we will be supporting universities and making sure that legitimate, lawful debate can take place, that people have their views heard and that views that people may find offensive are robustly challenged.
Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)
What dialogue have the Government had with universities to support freedom of speech, while implementing the guidance that university events should be cancelled unless the authorities are entirely convinced that the risk that views could draw people into terrorism can be fully mitigated?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
We have ongoing discussions with universities. All universities submitted the first self-assessment form following the introduction of the Prevent statutory duty in January, and this will be followed in the spring by detailed assessments of their policies and procedures.
Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)
My Lords, debate should always be conducted in courteous terms but does the Minister agree that words such as “antisemitism” and “Islamophobia” and those relating to any other type of religious phobia should not be used as shields to stifle legitimate debate?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
As I said, we absolutely want to support students and universities in ensuring that legitimate, lawful debate and the challenging of ideas happens in our universities. That is a tenet of our higher education system that we are proud of and want to continue. This Government will carry on supporting universities and students who want to continue to participate in such debate.
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)
In order for me to assist the House, the Member seeking to ask a question has to try to get in. However, I think that the House wants to hear from the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill.
Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve
Does the Minister have any views about the most effective means by which university vice-chancellors and councils can alter the climate in which some people confuse the passion of their own disagreement with a licence to silence?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
There is a good, strong relationship between vice-chancellors and students in many universities. Indeed, as Louise Richardson, vice-chancellor of Oxford University, has said, students must learn to engage with ideas that they find objectionable and be more willing to debate with opponents to try to change their minds. Statements like that from vice-chancellors, encouraging students and making clear the need to debate and argue about ideas, are very positive.
Agriculture: Dairy Farmers
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what estimate they have made of the impact on dairy farmers of the latest fall in milk prices.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and refer to my entry in the Register of Lords’ Interests.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)
My Lords, increased global milk production, along with the Russian trade embargo and weaker demand in China, has resulted in surplus stocks and downward pressure on worldwide prices. This has had a significant impact on British farmers. Average incomes are expected to fall to £46,000 in 2015-16, although there are considerable variations. Some farmers have sought to offset low prices by producing more. Lower prices for feed, fertiliser and fuel have also helped to reduce farmers’ costs.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering
Will my noble friend agree to review the remit of the Groceries Code Adjudicator to end the gross imbalance between small, often family, dairy farmers and huge processors, many of which are seeking to consolidate, and put an end to the retail price war that is damaging the future of the family dairy farmer?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I should declare an interest in that I come from a long-standing dairy farming family. I therefore clearly have considerable sympathy with the plight of dairy farmers. The Groceries Code Adjudicator has no powers over prices. However, we are looking at a number of issues in relation to suppliers and processors to see whether there are ways in which we can make improvements. I am pleased that a number of supermarkets—I encourage other chains to do so—see that they have a responsibility to the domestic dairy industry.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, in declaring my interest as noted in the register, may I press the Minister on this issue? He is aware, is he not, that family dairy farms have their backs against the wall? The prices they are getting are not only less than the full price of production but less than the marginal price of production, and hundreds will be going out of business. Will the Government please take this seriously and do something about it?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that the Government are very concerned about this. Indeed, other Ministers and I have been discussing the matter only today. There are a number of things that government can and are doing. We want to promote more exports; we believe that the export of our dairy products is tremendously important, and more British cheese is going abroad. We think that the Middle East and China are very important markets, and we have trade counsellors in Beijing precisely to encourage exports. A lot is going on, but I am very mindful of what the noble Lord has said.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister said that the Groceries Code Adjudicator cannot adjudicate on prices, and that is the case at the moment. But is not the problem that the Groceries Code Adjudicator does not have sufficient power? I know that a review is going on into her power, but could the Minister clarify whether expanding the power of the Groceries Code Adjudicator is being considered, so that she can intervene in what is clearly an unfair system where people in that sector are being exploited by big business?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, clearly we will be looking at all things. However, the truth is that we are not in a position to start setting prices; that is market driven. We have global overproduction at the moment, and that is the plain economics of it. But we are going to look at all these things and we want to see whether there are ways in which the dairy farmer can be assisted. We think that the dairy farming industry should be more joined up, so that there is strength in its negotiations. Clearly, we want to make sure that supermarkets understand that it is very important to sustain the domestic dairy industry.
Lord Framlingham (Con)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it really is quite ridiculous that the price of a bottle of milk is often less than the price of a bottle of water, bearing in mind the real difficulties that our dairy farmers are now suffering? Will he, as he has already referred to, put real pressure on the retailers and supermarkets to see what they can do to help this industry that is in such dire straits?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I understand what my noble friend has said. Indeed, quite a number of retailers have introduced schemes to help farmers: for instance, Morrisons Milk for Farmers cheddar, where an additional 34p per 350 grams goes to farmers; Aldi championing British quality; and Waitrose highlighting British sourcing. A number of retailers are doing more, and we want to ensure that, across the piece, there is more support like that.
Baroness Parminter (LD)
My Lords, one way for dairy farmers to cut costs is to herd cows into huge sheds where they are given processed food, unable to go out and graze in fields. Do this Government accept mega-farms as the future face of our countryside?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, we certainly see the need for mixed farms. The most important thing is that animal husbandry and animal welfare are at their best whatever size of farming unit it is. SoI would not say that large units are bad and small units are good. The important thing is that there are high animal welfare standards across the piece.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)
My Lords, will the Minister undertake to look at the policy of Booths supermarkets in the north of England, which have deliberately set out a policy to help dairy farmers? Booths supermarkets package their milk so that customers know that they are giving appropriate support to local dairy producers. Will the Minister investigate that and compliment them?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
I would be delighted to compliment all those retailers that are taking their responsibilities seriously. What the noble Baroness has said is that it is very important that we improve our labelling. It is very important people know that, when they buy British produce, it is not British-processed produce but produce that is grown in this country.
Baroness Byford (Con)
My Lords, may I follow up that comment? The work undertaken by retailers is beginning to have an effect, but part of the problem— I hope that my noble friend will be able to tell us a little more about this—is that only half of that milk ends up as liquid milk. Most of it ends up as processed milk. The difficulty is the amount that we can actually use, so export, which the Minister spoke about, is key. The price that retailers pay is in some ways better than the bulk commodity price; it is the bulk commodity price that is the real problem.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. A lot of retailers are paying 20p or 30p a litre. She is absolutely right to say that one way in which we can help to address the problem is to become much more resilient and much more export focused. We have brilliant produce in this country and we need to export more of it. That is what the Government are working on.
Housing: New Build
Lord Young of Cookham
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what has been the rate of new house building starts in the past 12 months.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, housing starts in England in the 12 months to the end of September 2015 totalled 137,490, with completions increasing by 17% over the same period. Under this Government, housing starts and new housing construction output are at their highest annual levels since 2007.
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply. Has she seen the latest review by the National House Building Council, which shows a welcome increase of some 75% in new homes registered over the past six years, but says that there is a very substantial gap between supply and demand? Can she give any assurances that, as the industry recovers and responds to the many initiatives taken by the Government to increase supply, progress will not be impeded, as it has been in the past, by shortages of skilled labour or building materials?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My noble friend raises the important issue for the housing industry of both brickies and bricks. The Government have been very mindful of that: the DCLG and BIS are working with the Construction Leadership Council to review what skills the industry needs. The research that my noble friend mentions shows that more than 100,000 new jobs were created in England in the past year. We want to go further than that and encourage people who want to go into the industry to be able to do so, in line with our other ambition of creating 3 million apprentices by 2020.
Lord Shipley (LD)
My Lords, is the Minister aware that, on the Government’s own estimate, household formation is increasing by 200,000 every year, and that 137,000 starts in 2015 do not even meet that requirement, never mind dealing with the current housing crisis, which will require around 300,000 homes to be built over the next few years? Does she regard 137,000 starts as a good start in meeting the Government’s objective of 1 million new homes in this Parliament?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I do regard it as a good start. As the noble Lord says, we are committed to 1 million new homes by 2021. That is why the Government have put in such a huge amount of money and doubled the budget for housebuilding over this Parliament to £20 billion, which will include all types of tenure and build.
Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)
Would the Minister care to comment on the fact that, only a mile from here, there is plenty of building going on in Battersea—1.52 million? There is no problem at all—not a land problem or any other problem. So why is there such an imbalance between that phenomenon and affordable housing for everybody else?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Lord raises the important issue of supply. It is in meeting demand needs and increasing supply that we will start to even out house prices and make them more affordable for younger people—the demographic who have suffered the most from being unable to access the housing market.
Baroness Hayman (CB)
My Lords, the Minister referred to apprenticeships as one way of dealing with the skills shortage. May I encourage her to do a little joined-up government and talk to the Ministry of Justice about the training programmes that we have in our prison estate at the moment that deal with the building trade? As we all know, having a job at the end of a prison sentence is the best guarantee against reoffending. Perhaps the Government could talk to some of the big housebuilders about how they could join in with the training programmes in our prisons.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I thank the noble Baroness for that sensible suggestion. She is absolutely right: the best measure against reoffending once leaving the criminal justice system is to go into a job—to get one’s life back on track. I will certainly follow up her suggestion.
Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
My Lords, the Government are giving with one hand and taking away with another when it comes to skills training. It is all right for the Minister to suggest that all these apprenticeships will be created, but that depends on the companies and organisations being prepared to create them. On the other hand, the Government are slashing support to further education colleges, which are the basis of the skills for a great deal of construction. What does the Minister have to say about that contradiction?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, as I said, 100,000 jobs were created in the sector only last year. The Government are encouraging industries of all types to take on apprentices, and they are. I hope we will attain our target by 2020 of 3 million apprentices.
Lord Lexden (Con)
Are the Government firmly pledged to increase home ownership in our country?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, we are, and I am pleased to tell my noble friend that a report only last week showed that the decline in home ownership that we have seen over the past 15 to 20 years has halted for the first time.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)
Would the Minister care to have another go at answering the question asked by my noble friend Lord Lea? The demand in London is not coming from London itself but very substantially from overseas. The supply is meeting that demand and not the very real demand from Londoners themselves. Does she not agree that the Government really need to address that problem?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, it is indeed a challenge. Schemes such as Help to Buy are for UK residents only.
Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun Freezing Order 2016
Lord Ashton of Hyde
To move that the Orders laid before the House on 16 and 17 December 2015 and 25 January be approved.
Relevant documents: 14th and 16th Reports from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on Wednesday 10 February.
Scotland Bill
(8 years, 2 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, in light of the amendment to the Motion tabled by my noble friend Lord Forsyth, I want to set out the reasons why we should consider Parts 2 and 3 of the Bill today. I start from the proposition that there is a consensus in this House that wants to see the Bill reach the statute book and the fiscal framework to be agreed, and why should that not be the case? The Bill implements not only the manifesto commitments of the Conservative Party, but the commitments made by the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties as well. Indeed, as my noble friend so rightly reminded us on referendum night, the unionist parties must deliver on the commitments that they made.
Like my noble friend, I understand that the first step in strengthening bonds of trust in Scotland is to keep your promises and to be seen to keep them. The Government want to see a Scottish Parliament that is more financially responsible and accountable than it is today, and to meet the overwhelming desire of the majority of people in Scotland for a Scottish Parliament with more powers within the United Kingdom. I therefore ask the House to consider carefully whether agreeing to this amendment will help or hinder the passage of the Bill in the process of achieving an agreed fiscal framework that is fair to Scotland and to the UK as a whole. I submit to your Lordships that it would not help. Indeed, it would put both in considerable jeopardy. The fiscal framework negotiations are at a sensitive and critical point. There have been intensive discussions between the UK and Scottish Governments throughout last week. These have continued over the weekend and today. Significant progress has been made and, while nothing is ever certain, a deal now seems within reach. Both Governments are very conscious of pressing timetables for both this Parliament and the Scottish Parliament to scrutinise the fiscal framework before the Bill reaches the final amending stages in this House, and to enable the Scottish Parliament to consider a legislative consent Motion.
My noble friend Lord Forsyth is fond of angling analogies. He has suggested that this is a fishy business and the UK Government are being played by the SNP because it has no intention of ever doing a deal. If my noble friend is right, and I do not think that he is, then the effect of his Motion is to let the SNP off the hook. Why? Because it will become clear to the Scottish Government that in legislative terms—I hope I am not stretching the angling analogy too far—we are running out of line. I therefore ask the House not to let the amendment frustrate what must surely be our priority today: to do all we can to support the achievement of a successful outcome.
I understand, of course, the frustration and that discussions are protracted. I am sure noble Lords will understand that this is a challenging negotiation and it is important to do the right deal. The UK Government cannot be pressured to sign a deal at any cost to meet a parliamentary deadline. I believe it is possible to consider in Committee today, and on their own terms, the merits of parts 2 and 3 of the Bill, and to discuss in detail the outcomes the fiscal framework is intended to achieve. This will help to identify issues we can return to on Report, and I assure the House that there will be ample opportunity on Report to scrutinise the fiscal framework if it can be agreed by then. There is no shortage of information on these issues to inform our debate, whether it is independent analysis or information provided to the House by the Treasury.
I also understand noble Lords’ frustrations at the confidentiality of the process. However, I do not believe that conducting negotiations in public is conducive to reaching a deal. All that happens is that each party paints itself into a corner, making it more difficult for compromise to be reached. Once the fiscal framework is agreed, the Government are committed to providing Parliament with every opportunity to scrutinise it. In particular, any changes to borrowing and fiscal institutions will require legislation and debate.
While I accept that Smith is a substantial devolution package, I note, finally, that it is not without precedent to consider devolution provisions without all the details being available. The last Scotland Bill—a significant devolution package—was considered and agreed by the House before the block grant adjustment mechanism was agreed. I therefore ask my noble friend not to press his amendment and to help secure the passage of this important Bill and a successful outcome for fiscal framework negotiations. I beg to move.
Amendment to the Motion
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
As an amendment to the motion that the House do now again resolve itself into a Committee upon the Bill, to leave out from “House” to the end and insert “declines to consider parts 2 and 3 of the Bill further in Committee until the updated fiscal framework proposed in Scotland in the United Kingdom: An enduring settlement (Cm 8990) has been published, as recommended by the Constitution and Economic Affairs Committees in a letter to the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Lord Dunlop, on 28 January.”
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the House for giving me the opportunity to move the amendment. I am particularly grateful to my noble friend the Chief Whip for persuading the House to consider the Scotland Bill in an order that meant we looked at parts 2 and 3, concerned with taxation and welfare, last. I am not so grateful to my noble friend for suggesting, on the whip, that my Motion was a fatal amendment. It is not a fatal amendment. All it seeks to do is to implement the advice of both the Constitution Committee and the Economic Affairs Committee that we should not go on to discuss the Committee stage until we have the fiscal framework. It would be fatal only if my noble friend the Chief Whip thought that we would never ever agree the fiscal framework. As my noble friend the Minister is indicating that agreement is imminent, I do not see why he is so concerned about delaying the Committee stage by a few days. I have to say to him in the gentlest terms, since he used the fishing analogy, that it looks to me very much like a sturgeon is playing him like a salmon.
From the very day he was appointed, I have rather unkindly been asking the Minister if he could give an absolute guarantee that the Bill would not be broughtbefore this House for consideration until the fiscal framework was agreed. He said that he hoped that would be the case because he expected it to be agreed by the end of the Summer Recess. We were then told that it would be in November; then, it was going to be in January; and most recently it was going to be on St Valentine’s Day—but there he was, sat at a table for two on his own, with no sign of the First Minister turning up to deliver the fiscal framework.
Lord McCluskey (CB)
My Lords, I support the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. I can be brief because he has covered many of the arguments. I wish to make it clear that in my view and, I think, the view of many, the important thing is that this Bill does not concern simply Scotland but the United Kingdom, and in particular the taxpayers in Great Britain. That is why the noble Lord mentioned Wales and, of course, the north of England.
The general view is that Scotland has for many years been subsidised by taxpayers in the rest of Great Britain. That view is inconvertible and I think that the Treasury strongly supports that opinion. Whether that subsidy has been justified is a different question that I will not go into at this stage. The underlying issue is not the interpretation of a word such as “detriment”, which does not mean too much, although, if you ask the people of Wales, they will tell you that they recognise it when they see it arising from this Bill. The real underlying issue is whether taxpayers in the rest of the United Kingdom, and certainly in the rest of Great Britain, should continue to subsidise the Scots and, if so, at what level and on what basis. The issue underlying that is whether it is time for this House to face up to the weaknesses of the Barnett formula and begin to ask whether it is proper to make need the sound basis for supplying tax money to different regions of the United Kingdom.
We have waited for the fiscal framework since May 2015, when the Bill was introduced in the House of Commons. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, that we cannot do our job without the fiscal framework. However, my one reservation about the amendment is that I fear it would let the SNP off the hook because the truth of the matter is that it cannot live with devo-max on any basis other than an improved subsidy; and, if it cannot live with devo-max, it certainly cannot live with independence. Therefore, the argument on this matter is very important because it reveals the basic weakness of the Scottish National Party’s position. I hesitate to give it an excuse for blaming us and condemning us in the usual terms as being unelected et cetera. Therefore, I invite your Lordships to support this measure but I hope that, ultimately, the noble Lord will withdraw the amendment.
Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)
My Lords, the point that the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, made at the end of his brief speech seems to me to support the position that the Minister is urging us to adopt. The last thing we want is to be seen to be delaying the progress of the Bill through Parliament. As I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, what occurred to me was the lack of clarity over how today’s debate will be affected by the absence of the fiscal framework. The Bill proceeds in stages, of course. We are looking today at the Committee stage and the fine wording and tuning of the various clauses in Parts 2 and 3. For the moment, I do not see how the wording of those clauses will be affected by the fiscal framework. At a later stage, the noble Lord may propose that we should not allow these clauses to go forward in the Bill. However, that could be done on Report; it does not have to be done today. If, as the Minister said, there is a prospect of the fiscal framework being agreed tomorrow so that we have it before us on Report, I do not see why the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, cannot be examined at that stage, too, or, as a last resort, at Third Reading. Given the nature of today’s debate, I respectfully suggest that the balance of advantage is to proceed to maintain the parliamentary timetable, which is crucial if we are to do our job of supporting the Smith commission.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I wish to make it clear from the start that the Labour Party will not support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean. The facts of life are that the future of the United Kingdom is at stake, and while I certainly would not accuse the noble Lord of exaggeration, it is becoming clear that with his oratorical skills—I do not think anyone in the Chamber can match him, although some Members on my side are a match for him in maintaining a position—he seems to be succeeding in creating an atmosphere of crisis. With all due respect, he has taken a drama and made a crisis out of it. I do not say that he exaggerates, as that would be unfair and untrue, but a sense of calm, reason and responsibility has to pervade this Chamber. We are speaking about the future of Scotland and of this United Kingdom.
The Minister has made the point that there is a precedent because the last Scotland Act proceeded to implement matters with the detail being discussed later. Quite frankly, apart from the procedures of this House, the practical effect of the noble Lord’s amendment to the Motion being passed would be to kill off the negotiations and the chance of reaching a successful conclusion to these important discussions. I believe that this amendment has been devised to kill off the Scotland Bill, the fiscal framework procedure and the progress being made in Scotland.
Lord Elton (Con)
Can the noble Lord explain why accepting the amendment should kill off the negotiations? Surely it should accelerate them.
Lord McAvoy
I can understand why the noble Lord makes that point, but the nation and country of Scotland is awaiting the results of these negotiations. Whether the noble Lord likes it or not—and I certainly do not—passing the amendment would send this message to Scotland: “Westminster’s not agreeing. Westminster’s kidding you on. Westminster’s conning you. They don’t mean it and here they are obstructing Scotland yet again”.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
All my amendment does is say that we should not proceed with the Committee stage until we have the fiscal framework. It does not say that we should not proceed with the Bill or should not pass it. If the noble Lord’s argument is right, why would it not have been interpreted in the same way when we decided to delay consideration of Parts 2 and 3 until today?
Lord McAvoy
The noble Lord will have to accept that I do not agree with him on this, and I do not think he will agree with what I am about to say. The arrangements are designed to facilitate the passage of the Bill and the fiscal framework discussions. Quite frankly, I do not believe that that is the noble Lord’s intention; I believe it is his intention to kill off the discussions.
The atmosphere in Scotland is one of mistrust. I try not to make political points, but the result of the 2015 general election was, I maintain, a direct result of the Prime Minister’s triumphalist press conference in Downing Street the morning after the referendum when he sent the message, “English votes for English laws”, and hostility towards those who had voted yes. There was a sea change in Scotland, where all Labour Party seats were wiped out with the exception of one. We were seen to be conniving and in collusion with a Conservative Prime Minister.
On the other side of the coin, we have got the SNP, with its grievance culture, which is determined to attack Westminster and cast doubt on Westminster’s good intentions—unfairly, because I believe that the intentions here for Scotland are good on both sides of the House. I also think that there was an element of scare story when the noble Lord mentioned that I, the Labour Party and the Conservative Party were terrified of Scots. Terrified of my own people? I respect their desire. I respect their wishes—it is our job to facilitate them—and I believe that that is also the position of the House of Lords.
From the Cross Benches, the noble and learned Lord made it plain that the fiscal framework can still be discussed on Report. This is not a panic measure. This is not ifs, buts or maybes. This is the calmness for which this House is renowned. There will be plenty of opportunity if we can get these discussions to a conclusion. Certainly the indications give hope that we can get the conclusions.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)
Does the noble Lord accept my noble friend Lord Forsyth’s argument that Scotland will lose out if it comes to a settlement that abolishes the Barnett formula and makes it rely on income tax in Scotland?
Lord McAvoy
The time to discuss the fiscal framework will be when public announcements are made. With all due respect to the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, we can discuss it until we are red or blue in the face. We are not discussing anything that is there in front of us. This House must be allowed to get on with facilitating the Bill, facilitating the people of Scotland getting the Bill, guarding—
Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)
Does the noble Lord accept that he is making the Scottish people sound really stupid, whereas in actual fact they are highly intelligent and perfectly capable of following the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth? I suspect that they would support him because they may get a proper deal in the end.
Lord McAvoy
The noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, is absolutely right. The Scottish people are too intelligent to be fooled. That is why they will never vote for UKIP. I do not like making political points when the future of the country is at stake, but there we are.
Lord McAvoy
Cheap? I have been called worse. I take the point of view that we must be allowed to get on with this. I urge the Labour Party, and I am sure that everybody in this House urges both negotiating teams, to come to a conclusion. It is hard; it is difficult. However, we should not underestimate the task that that team is facing, nor should we underestimate the task that the Government are facing in getting this Bill through. We on the Labour side of the House believe that this Bill must go through. This amendment is a distraction. It is not quite right in the threats that it makes. We should get on with the Bill as quickly as we can.
Baroness Buscombe (Con)
Before the noble Lord sits down, does he agree that it would be sensible at least to respond to what my noble friend Lord Forsyth has suggested in urging the Minister to consider and bring forth a sunrise clause, to ensure that at least we can go through this process in the knowledge that this Bill will not pass until this framework is published and considered by your Lordships?
Lord McAvoy
With due respect to the noble Baroness, that would send the message to Scotland from this House, from Westminster, that I have been arguing against for the last five or six minutes. That would be interpreted as Westminster reneging on its commitment to Scotland. I do not accept that argument but that is the argument that would win the day because in my opinion—the noble Baroness will have to take my word for it—that is the mood of Scotland in listening to Westminster.
Baroness Buscombe
It may assist the noble Lord if he were to remind those who seem to mistrust this House that the Smith commission comprised purely Scottish representatives. It is therefore wrong to say that our Prime Minister was in any way not supportive of the Scottish coming out of this with a fair deal. We have all accepted this process thus far. By having a commission—whose results we have all accepted—to decide the future of our overall relationship, but in which only Scotland was represented and not the rest of the United Kingdom, we have made a huge step forward in trying to show Scotland that we care about its future.
Lord McAvoy
The noble Baroness has not addressed my response that the mood in Scotland is such that, correctly or incorrectly, that sort of behaviour would be seen as Westminster tricks or deviousness. That is how it would be seen and there would be a massive reaction against it. This is a massive development for this United Kingdom of ours, in dangerous times when we need to keep a cool head. I may take stick for this elsewhere, but there we go. We have confidence in the capacity of the Scottish Government and the United Kingdom Government to come forward with an arrangement that will guarantee the future of this country.
Lord Hughes of Woodside (Lab)
My Lords, I hesitate to enter this debate, especially as it has been going on for a long time and I have always opposed Scottish devolution. I accept what has happened, that changes have to be made and that we have to move forward. However, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, makes an interesting point and if he forces a Division, I shall certainly support him in the Lobby.
As this debate has proceeded today, I have become more and more alarmed. We must choose our words very carefully. When my noble friend Lord McAvoy says that the Bill must go through, that is not the same as saying that, “This Bill must proceed”. We need an absolute guarantee that the Bill will not reach the statute book until the fiscal agreement has been reached; otherwise it will face opposition at every stage. Anyone who raises a question is accused of deliberately trying to stop the Bill going through and to stop the Scottish people getting their own way. Nothing could be further from the truth. We want to see a lasting settlement that will avoid the procedure whereby it seems that, almost every five minutes, the Scottish National Party demands greater concessions which it is given and which it accepts and hails as a great victory. The next day it says, “We have been sold down the river again”. If the debate on the future of Scotland is to be proceeded with solely on the basis of the attitude that the Scottish National Party takes, we are doomed to disaster.
This House and this Parliament have a responsibility, and we should proceed on that basis. When the Minister gets to his feet, he should at least give a categorical assurance that, if we reach Report and still do not have a fiscal agreement, that Report stage will not proceed until the agreement is reached. If he cannot go that far, he should at least go so far as to say that the Bill will not go on the statute book until that agreement is reached and agreed by Parliament.
The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, for enabling us to have this debate on the sorry state of the timetabling for this important constitutional matter. I want to make just three points.
The first concerns precedent. The Bill is the first of a series of devolutions in the UK and obviously precedential in its financial settlement. It is also precedential in terms of all the Bill’s contents. I hope that the one thing where it is not precedential is in the extraordinary process which has led to us being in this debate today. Your Lordships’ House is justly proud of its ability to scrutinise legislation, to bring to bear its considerable powers of analysis to improve that legislation and to test the thinking behind every provision within it. That scrutiny process is multi-layered and the Committee stage is an extremely important layer of it, and I would strongly resist the giving-up of it. The scrutiny process has been honed, through centuries, to the effective peak that there is today.
We aim to produce legislation that will stand the test of time. This Bill is likely to last a very long time, so we need to proceed carefully. I hope that the House will agree with me that, in a constitutional matter such as this, it is especially important that the full spectrum of the House’s abilities are employed, given that it is a new settlement within the United Kingdom and will definitely be precedential on the other devolution settlements under consideration.
Lord Turnbull (CB)
My Lords, I, too, share many of the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. We have reached a point where the House is being asked to approve that certain taxes and welfare measures should be devolved, but nothing is being said about the framework in which they are to be operated. I do not accept the proposition put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Hope, that we can divorce the two, nor do I accept that the precedent of the previous Scotland Act of leaving certain details to be settled after this stage is appropriate. What is at stake are billions and billions of pounds and the distribution of those between the different parts of the United Kingdom.
We have been told nothing about two vitally important elements of the fiscal agreement: the method for adjusting the Barnett formula to take account of the new distribution of taxes and the regime for borrowing and debt. We know that there is a dispute over two different methods of adjusting the block grant. Noble Lords will be pleased to know that I am not going to attempt to explain those now, but no Minister in this House or the other place has attempted to explain what the two approaches are and the merits of each. Despite that, and contrary to the assurances given, the completion of Committee stage has been scheduled to proceed. It is extraordinary that a major change in constitutional arrangements, both political and financial, is being sought without either House having a chance to see the detail of what is proposed or, importantly, to take a view on its effectiveness or fairness. It has been pointed out that this is not simply a bilateral matter between Scottish and UK Ministers: it has implications for the whole country.
The other place may be content to allow all this to glide by unremarked, but I believe that this House has higher standards. It has always prided itself on ensuring that matters of constitutional significance are properly scrutinised. At the moment, that is not happening.
If an agreement is reached in the next few days, even though it has been a case of “Mañana, mañana” so far, the Government need quickly to come up with a process that allows the Bill to be scrutinised before final assent is given to it. For example, if this is effectively delayed until Report, will the rules of Report be modified to adopt the rules of Committee—for example, with noble Lords being able to speak a second time? That has been done before, I think in the case of a financial services Bill. Alternatively, a separate consent Motion could be provided, which is something that the Holyrood Parliament itself intends. Something needs to be done because it is not acceptable to allow the Bill to be finalised and matters of this importance to be sorted out thereafter.
Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)
My Lords, I should mention first that I was an MSP for the first eight years of the Scottish Parliament. I want to make a series of small points. The first is that an agreement between the Government and the devolved Scots Administration should not be beyond the wit of humankind, even in difficult circumstances. I hope that the Minister will keep negotiating and that his efforts will be rewarded with success.
I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, not only made a persuasive case but made a particularly important point when he suggested that an amendment could be made saying that the Act must not commence until the fiscal framework was in place. My understanding is that the Bill cannot be implemented in the absence of an agreement as it requires a consent Motion in the Scottish Parliament. Without an agreement, no consent Motion will be passed. I hope that the Minister will look very carefully at my noble friend’s proposal.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My proposal was that the Act should not commence until this House and the House of Commons had approved the fiscal framework. My noble friend is right that the only parliament that is going to be able to consider this Bill in the context of the fiscal framework is the Scottish Parliament, and that seems a bit odd to me.
Lord Selkirk of Douglas
My noble friend’s suggestion does not seem to have the disadvantages of the amendment, which I will come to in a moment, and I hope that it will be looked at sympathetically in some form because it could be an important step forward.
There is of course frustration in the Scottish Parliament about this. The convener of the Devolution Committee, Bruce Crawford MSP, recently stated there would be “a substantial impact” on the ability of the Scottish Parliament to go through the process of proper scrutiny. Obviously he was referring to what he regarded as unreasonable delays. He expects the teams from Holyrood and Westminster to appear before his committee tomorrow to give a full explanation of their position on a fiscal framework, whatever the circumstances. There is a strong group of 15 Tory MSPs in the Scottish Parliament. To the best of my knowledge they want the Bill to proceed, and they are the third largest group.
My concern is based on two factors. This could become a major issue in the forthcoming elections to the Scottish Parliament on 5 May. If there is no agreement, the Scottish electorate will most certainly want to know who to blame. If the Bill fails because the Scottish Government shrink from accountability then the SNP will have to take responsibility, but if the Bill fails because the noble Lord’s amendment delays it unreasonably then this House and unionist parties could become a lightning conductor for criticism.
My most important reservation is that the amendment could lead to a serious weakening of the United Kingdom. Noble Lords may wonder what the Scots really want. I think that the answer is given in three ways: in opinion polls, in the referendum and in the recent general election. My interpretation of the referendum was that there is a decisive majority in Scotland for the United Kingdom. That means that the Scots will want to keep the UK intact, which should be remembered and never forgotten. My interpretation of the general election results in Scotland was that it was a clear indication that a large majority of the Scottish people wish to have a Scottish Parliament with increased powers and responsibilities, and within a reasonable timescale. I do not wish this House to do anything that would give the SNP a major propaganda coup during an election because I am a passionate supporter of the United Kingdom.
There are three difficulties with the amendment. First, it could be used to prevent the promises made by the Prime Minister and other party leaders being fulfilled. That could easily enrage the Scottish electorate on the basis that promises should be kept. The second difficulty is that the timing is not totally convenient because the Scottish election campaign will pick up on this and it could become a major issue. The third and most important consideration is that the United Kingdom probably stands a very much better chance of long-term survival if we do not unreasonably delay this Bill. In short, it is the kind of amendment that could trigger the law of unintended consequences.
Finally, I had the privilege of working under my noble friend Lord Forsyth in the Scottish Office. I have no hesitation in saying that he was a very strong, powerful and highly effective Secretary of State, frequently coming up with extremely interesting and exciting new ideas. I will mention one of them as an example. He wished the Stone of Destiny to be returned to Scotland and he got his way: that was a tremendous achievement. The Stone of Destiny was put in a “Stonemobile”, and there was a terrific reception in Edinburgh Castle. Of course, the Scots were not going to be satisfied merely with a stone: they wanted more. I recall a story that when the Stone of Destiny was originally pinched from Westminster Abbey by some youngsters of a nationalist disposition, and the police were searching for it, a Scotsman from the back of beyond telephoned the police and said that he knew who the thief was. The police officer went round to see him and took out his notebook, and the old man said, “It was King Edward I”.
As I have said before, finding a really satisfactory way forward in this area is very much like walking a tightrope. The noble Lord, Lord Smith of Kelvin, put it very well when he said:
“The new powers set out in the Scotland Bill will lead to a transformation of the powers held by Holyrood and it would be a terrible shame if they were to fall away at this late stage”.
My noble friend Lord Forsyth of Drumlean has put forward an amendment that might be entirely logical, but the potential disadvantages, in my view, outweigh other considerations. Above all, we at all times have to keep in mind the essential need to protect, maintain and sustain the United Kingdom.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
If the House will allow me to make a brief observation about the process, I will not detain it much longer. I believe that this Bill should proceed today to the clauses. It is a balanced judgment: the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, made a very valid point in saying that the amendments on the Order Paper would not have been meaningfully impacted upon even if there had been an agreement. However, the question is whether there would have been amendments in light of the agreement if it had been made in a timely manner. That means that the Minister needs to give a bit more information when he winds up this short debate on the amount of scrutiny that is going to be afforded to the fiscal agreement, not only in this House but in another place. Half a day of Report stage might not, I venture, be sufficient.
To paraphrase many whom I have heard over the past 24 hours, we need to progress with a heavy heart, because we are in unfortunate circumstances. They are unfortunate because there has been considerable press coverage, even though the Minister had said that this was a negotiation in private. However, the circumstances of these negotiations go far beyond the previous legislation to which he referred. The adjustment of the block grant will now require a permanent and significant constitutional mechanism given the very large extent of the powers that will be transferred to the Scottish Parliament, and it requires considerable scrutiny. Later on we will debate the adjustment, not only for fiscal powers but for welfare powers, and its financial implications. For the first time, the Scottish Government will have current revenue borrowing powers, which, similarly, are part of the negotiations. Most important, however, is that these discussions are pertinent not just to Scotland—the implications will be much wider for the constitutional arrangements we have across the whole of the United Kingdom.
Lord Elton
My Lords, we should be coming to a conclusion, so I do not wish to detain your Lordships for long. However, I remark that my noble friend Lord Selkirk, in a wonderfully elegant and skilful speech, invited your Lordships, not unreasonably, to delay the Bill. What gives my noble friend Lord Forsyth’s amendment weight and reason is the joint letter from the two chairmen of the two senior committees of this House, which has scarcely been addressed in this debate at all. They have both said, after considerable deliberation, that it would not be proper or wise for us to proceed until we have the fiscal framework before us. We therefore have to find some means of doing that—if possible keeping within the timetable, which is an unreasonable one. It was not unreasonable to start with but it has become so because of the extraordinary foot-dragging of the seeking of the agreement itself. That is not our fault.
It is also important to remember that we are here for a purpose. It is the reasonable purpose of seeing that the legislation we pass is fit for purpose and does not handicap unnecessarily or unfairly any part of the United Kingdom. From what I have heard this afternoon I understand that that is something we cannot fairly do until we have the framework.
What other devices are there to achieve this compromise of timing? I am sure it is already in my noble friend the Chief Whip’s mind but there is, of course, the device of recommitting clauses that have been taken in Committee at a later stage when circumstances change. I remind the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope—I hope I have got my procedure right—that the clause stand part procedure is in Committee and therefore there are no opportunities to suddenly excise a clause that has already been voted in. It is asking to decide the same issue twice in opposite senses. Therefore the idea of a recommital which gets round that decision seems a reasonable one. I put that to your Lordships as well as my noble friend Lord Forsyth’s plan B, as it were, which also has its merits, but I think they are less good because there would be less chance to do anything with this Bill once it is on the statute book.
Lord Stephen (LD)
My Lords, all of this emphasises the need for more open government. We have very limited information on the fiscal framework negotiations and neither Government have won plaudits for transparency and openness. From the UK Government there has been little more than, “We met. Good progress was made,” and possibly, occasionally, an overview of the agenda. I quote from the meeting held as recently as last Friday. This is supposed to be us coming to the end of the negotiations:
“MINISTERIAL MEETING ON SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT’S FISCAL FRAMEWORK – 19 FEBRUARY 2016”—
the title takes up more space than the minute of the meeting, which states:
“The Rt Hon Greg Hands MP, Chief Secretary to the Treasury and John Swinney, Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Economy met in London today. They had a useful further discussion on Scotland’s fiscal framework. The discussion made progress in a number of areas. The two governments have not yet been able to reach an overall agreement”.
This is the sort of information that we as parliamentarians are being asked to rely on. The UK Government appear to believe that this is the best way to conduct these intergovernmental negotiations. I suspect that a major reason for this is the Treasury, which has a long track record of secrecy in all matters and doubtless feels that this has served its purposes well over the decades. The annual Budget negotiations with spending departments is probably the best example of this. By default we accept that the Treasury tends to be secretive, but I do not believe that this makes for good government. The more open we can be, the better. People should be encouraged to get more involved in politics and helped to understand government and the issues facing Governments. Too much is still done behind closed doors. This is a very big issue for the future of Scotland and the United Kingdom. So far everything has been done behind closed doors.
There is another dimension to this beyond the issue of secrecy. At both UK and Scottish levels we have been asked to, “Trust us, we’re the Government”. Governments, however, can be trusted only so far and Governments are ultimately answerable to the people and to the parliaments. Their powers are not, and must not be, unfettered. There can be real advantages to openness, particularly when they are dealing with, and are answerable to, the parliaments.
However much we may wish to support the passage of this Bill, there will come a point when we have to say that we need to see the fiscal framework, at least in its final draft form. This week we are reaching that final point with the Bill. We are supposed to move on from the Committee stage today to Report on Wednesday, but the negotiations between the Scottish and UK Governments are still to be concluded. Indeed, it is widely reported in the media that there is still a dispute. As parliamentarians in this Chamber, we have not been told the detail of this dispute but it is certainly all about the detail of the formula to be used, or indeed which formula is to be used, to calculate the funds to come to Scotland once the new tax-raising powers have been introduced. Surely there is bitter irony in negotiating this with an SNP Government, because with independence there is no formula and no safety net. The situation as we all understand it is that all that is swept aside: goodbye Barnett, goodbye population weighting and goodbye all forms of protection.
It seems inconceivable that we can proceed to complete Parliament’s consideration of the Bill without much greater openness and clarity on this issue and on the fiscal framework and all its clauses in general. Ideally, the terms of a final agreement need to be revealed to us. However, failing that and accepting that the UK Government cannot force a final agreement, we need to see the full draft of the fiscal framework identifying the area, or areas, of dispute and explaining the different proposals of the two Governments. Without that, the progress of the Bill is in serious danger of grinding to a halt, so I am very sympathetic to the view of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth.
My noble and learned friend Lord Wallace of Tankerness has suggested, for example, that we might be able to pass the Bill subject to a commencement order, which would require a legislative consent Motion from the Scottish Parliament. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has suggested another possible approach today in the event that we cannot reach a final, agreed position on the fiscal framework. All these arguments carry considerable force and a lot of work needs to be done on this in the coming hours. However, all of us know that stopping the Bill now, and stopping it in the House of Lords, would have huge practical and symbolic consequences, which could threaten the delivery of the extra powers promised to Scotland ahead of the Scottish Parliament elections in May. There would be the most profound political consequences. So, as we have listened carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, we should listen carefully to the Minister’s response.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
I accept the point that the noble Lord has made about the dangers but does he not see that that is precisely what the SNP is playing for: to prevent an agreement before the election, as that is what it will fight the election on?
Lord Stephen
If that is the case, we must flush the SNP out on this, and we must be transparent and open about the progress that has been made and what is being offered by the UK Government in terms of the fiscal framework. The UK Government must be prepared to defend their position as fair and reasonable.
Whatever the result today, I believe that the arguments for greater openness and transparency on the fiscal framework will apply with even greater force when we reach Report. That will be the critical stage for the future success of the Bill.
Lord Hollick (Lab)
My Lords, the Economic Affairs Committee, which I chair, and the Constitution Committee both concluded after extensive inquiry that, in the absence of any information about the fiscal framework, it will be impossible for the House to assess whether the Bill will cause detriment to all or part of the United Kingdom. As the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, pointed out, we are talking about billions of pounds which could move between the rest of the United Kingdom and Scotland, so this is no small matter.
I think the Government have accepted the logic of that position, which is why we are taking Parts 2 and 3 out of order in today’s Committee. In his opening remarks, the Minister said that there will be ample opportunity on Report to scrutinise the fiscal framework. If, as he has hinted and as newspapers have reported, the fiscal framework is to be published in the next few days, would he agree that ample scrutiny can take place only if the procedural rules of Committee stage are applied to Report stage? Will the Minister confirm that he and his noble friend the Chief Whip will press for that?
Lord Darling of Roulanish (Lab)
My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with the remarks made by many Members of this House on the importance of the fiscal framework. It is no exaggeration to say that, without it, this entire legislation will fall apart—it is the most important part of the Smith settlement. It is deeply regrettable, therefore, that here we are at the parliamentary equivalent of the 11th hour and we still do not know what it is or what is in it.
Although I have some sympathy with those who are involved in negotiations, I have to say that as a non-Conservative and non-nationalist, I am not altogether sure that I am happy about the prospects for my country—either Scotland or the United Kingdom—being determined by two sets of negotiators, one of which wants to break up the United Kingdom and the other of which, the Conservative Party, has made a series of wrong calls since 19 September 2014. Talking of which, I must declare an interest in that I am still the chairman of Better Together, which is in the course of being wound up but has not been quite yet. As I said, I have a great deal of sympathy with what is being said, but it would be a mistake for this House to be seen to delay or block matters today. I hope that when the Minister comes to reply, he will give an absolute undertaking that the House will have the fiscal framework by Report, which must be imminent.
This is not just a matter for the Scottish Government and the UK Government. There will be many people outside in different parts of the UK who will have comments to make because this will determine not just how much tax is raised but how the balance is to be achieved between different parts of the United Kingdom and how adjustments are to be made, not just this year but in five years’ time. It would be very difficult to see to whose credit it was, or whose fault it was, that the tax take went up or down from that expected. This will determine who is paying for the welfare measures that are being devolved and, if no adjustments are made to them, who bears the cost of that. Also, it will determine the amount of borrowing and on whose account the borrowing is done. Is it on the part of the Scottish Government? Is it on the part of the UK Government? Is it temporary? What are the constraints? These are massive considerations. I heard what the noble Lord, Lord Stephen, said about the Treasury, but the Treasury is not always as curmudgeonly as he might suggest and sometimes has the nation’s best interests at heart—at least it did for a period in the past.
It is important that we get these things right. We cannot overestimate the importance of the fiscal framework, which is why I hope that the Minister, with whom I had the pleasure of working very closely over the last few years and who is, I am quite sure, not the villain of the piece, gives us an undertaking that we will have the fiscal framework.
I struggle to see how it is going to work. If we do not get it right, we could simply be storing up problems for the future and providing rich and fertile ground for those who seek out grudges and grievances as a way of life to feed on for many years to come. I do not want to see that happen, but I am very conscious that discussions are taking place not in the spirit of good will because, at the end of the day, these are two parties with opposing objectives. This is important, and I urge the House not to block the measure at this stage, especially if the Minister can give the undertaking that I think most of us want.
Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market (Con)
My Lords, I wish to intervene very briefly. We are indebted today to my noble friend Lord Forsyth for bringing this before the House. As a former chairman of the Economic Affairs Select Committee, a current member of the Constitution Committee and a former Chief Secretary to the Treasury, like the noble Lord, Lord Darling, with whose comments I very much agree, I would like to stress the absolute importance of this House being able to discuss the fiscal framework in some form or another, and its huge implications for the future of both Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, before the legislation is finally implemented. I support those who are making the point that, once the fiscal framework is published, we must have the opportunity to discuss it thoroughly before we can go further.
Lord Hain (Lab)
My Lords, I want to briefly support my noble friend Lord Darling and, indeed, endorse the point made by the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor. It arises, in a way, out of a question that he put to me when I was giving evidence to the Constitution Committee. It is this: we have allowed tax devolution to leave the station without any clear idea of what the destination is.
I am an enthusiastic devolutionist. As Secretary of State for Wales, I brought in the Government of Wales Act 2006, and I was instrumental in helping to win the 1997 Welsh referendum—albeit very narrowly; it was a hard fight. My concern is one that I do not see being addressed in the Bill, certainly not until we have the fiscal framework, at least, before us to scrutinise. It is this: 40% of the wealth of the United Kingdom is generated in London and the south-east. So what happens if parts of the UK—across the UK, not just in Wales and Scotland but in the north-east of England, Cornwall, and other parts of England that are not as wealthy as the south-east and London—are offloaded from the ability to benefit from redistribution, and the fairness involved in that redistribution?
The Government’s present ideology seems to be, “You have the powers to raise your own taxes, and it’s on your heads”. And if that particular part of the UK, be it Northern Ireland, Wales or Scotland, cannot raise what it previously raised, that is tough. I do not think that is a future for the United Kingdom that will command the support of all the nations and citizens of Britain and Northern Ireland. Therefore, although I cannot support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, I want to leave on the record a severe reservation about where this is all leading.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)
My Lords, I would like to say a word or two about the fiscal framework, which I agree is fundamental. The difficulty of it cannot be underestimated. This is a situation in which an authority has a grant-making power, and a power to raise taxes in order to raise the money for that grant—but at the same time, it is making a grant to a body that has a power to raise taxes itself. We have had this problem in the United Kingdom for a long time in relation to local authorities. Nobody needs to be told that every year local authorities have difficulty in accepting what central Government allocate to them. The Scottish Government have had that problem too, with refusing to allow local authorities to use their tax-raising powers under the community charge.
This is a very difficult situation, and I am not at all confident that it is possible to arrange things in a way that will work for all time in this fiscal framework. There is an element of prophecy involved, as we can see from what has been said about the need to take account of how the Scottish population is ageing; of course I am very much part of that factor myself, and I am very conscious of it. The important thing is that there are various powers, and it is difficult to see that they could be effectively regulated for all time coming. I know of no country in the world that has a very satisfactory arrangement for local government. Germany, for example, has inter-state relationships, and relationships between the states and the federation. The United States has problems of that kind too. We have before us the same sort of problem, in a different context. This is a very difficult thing to do—and I do not believe that the powers can be granted without knowledge of what that power arrangement is going to be, if it is possible to reach it.
On the other hand, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, said, it would be a mistake for us to use the power of this House to get the Bill in place before the deadline for the parliamentary elections in Scotland. If we were to do that, I think it would be regarded as something that the House of Lords had done to destroy the vow.
Lord Dunlop
I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate for their contributions. Before I address some of the points that have been raised, may I first make a correction? It came as something of a surprise to me to hear that I had not responded to the noble Lords, Lord Lang and Lord Hollick. I certainly signed lots of letters and I understand that those were sent off in early February, and copied to the leaders and Chief Whips of the main political parties and the Convener of the Cross-Bench Peers.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I apologise to my noble friend if that is the case, but I asked the Clerk to the Economic Affairs Committee if we had received a reply to the letter from the two chairmen and was told last week that we had not. Certainly, it has not been circulated to committee members.
Lord Dunlop
Well, it was certainly signed off by me, and my understanding was that the letters had gone off, but we will check that.
We want to secure the passage of the Bill and reach agreement on the fiscal framework. We can all agree that we want the focus at the Holyrood election to be on how the powers in the Bill are used. A number of noble Lords said that this House’s holding up consideration of the Bill would hinder the outcome that we all want and put the Bill’s timetable at unnecessary risk.
A number of noble Lords, including my noble friend, raised substantive points about the fiscal framework. One strong reason for proceeding today into Committee is so that we can have a debate and consider these matters in more detail. I very much agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, that Report gives us an opportunity to consider these matters further. I was particularly interested in the suggestion by the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, which was also made by the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, about using Committee rules at Report. I undertake to ask my noble friend the Chief Whip, who has been listening very closely to this debate, to speak to the usual channels to see if using Committee rules at Report can be agreed.
The Government are working flat out to get a fiscal framework agreement. As I said in my opening speech, there has been intensive discussion, which continues today. I remain optimistic that a deal can be reached soon. But today is not the day to speculate about what happens if we do not reach agreement and what options we might have to consider in that scenario. I therefore ask my noble friend not to press his amendment.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, was that it? We have had a splendid debate with a lot of suggestions. I think there was a consensus that we could not put this Bill on to the statute book without having discussed the fiscal framework. It is interesting that former judges such as the noble and learned Lords, Lord Hope, Lord McCluskey and Lord Mackay of Clashfern, are advising us on the politics of the situation in Scotland and I am arguing about the constitutional implications. I feel that my expertise is more limited than theirs on both counts.
Of course, I understand why the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, feels that if we were to delay consideration of the Bill, the SNP would complain that unelected Peers were interfering in the democratic decisions of the Scottish people and the Prime Minister’s vow—which, incidentally, was the Daily Record’s vow—had not been delivered. The noble Lord questioned my motives and said that I wanted to kill the Bill. I understand that the Bill will go on to the statute book; that will happen. But I want a stable, lasting framework that will end this business of the nationalists pretending that Scotland gets a bad deal out of the union and, at the same time, the other parts of the United Kingdom to feel that they are treated fairly. That is the objective, and the fiscal framework goes to the heart of that. Far be it from me to give advice to the Labour Party, but perhaps it should stop running away in Scotland and confront the nationalists for what they are and on what they say.
My noble friend said that the fiscal framework may be agreed before Report. The noble Lord, Lord Darling, for whom I have considerable admiration and respect, suggested that perhaps we might consider it on Report, but Report is the day after tomorrow is it not? Is the fiscal framework going to be agreed tomorrow? If so, perhaps it might have been sensible to delay Committee until Wednesday and then we could have had Committee with the fiscal framework. If my noble friend is right that the fiscal framework is imminent, clearly, it would be silly to delay Committee today and to accept my amendment—I am still speaking in favour of it, by the way—I can see that.
However, it was then suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, and others, that perhaps we could change the rules. It is perfectly open to me or any other Member of the House to bring forward a Motion on Report to say that we should recommit the Bill to Committee. Therefore, there is no reason for me to press my amendment today if, indeed, we are going to get the fiscal framework on Report. If we are not, and if the view of the House is that the Bill ought not to reach the statute book without an opportunity for the House of Commons particularly, as well as ourselves, to consider the fiscal framework, then it is open to my noble friend to accept an amendment in Committee today. There are several amendments—I have one of them—stating that there should be a sunrise clause whereby the Bill will not come into effect until the fiscal framework has been agreed by both Houses of Parliament.
The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, thinks that that would provoke hysteria in Scotland. I do not see why. The Bill will get on the statute book and they will get what they want. If it does not get on the statute book, it will be because of the intransigence of the SNP in agreeing the fiscal framework. One of the most important speeches was made by the noble Lord, Lord Stephen, who talked about the importance of transparency. We have also had speeches from a former Chancellor of the Exchequer, a former Permanent Secretary to the Treasury, a former Cabinet Secretary—they are both the same person—and all have advocated that we look at this issue.
European Council
(8 years, 2 months ago)
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows:
“Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on the agreement reached in Brussels last week, but first let me say a word about the migration crisis which was also discussed at the European Council. We agreed that we needed to press ahead with strengthening the EU’s external borders to ensure that non-refugees are returned promptly and to back the new mission to disrupt the criminal gangs working between Greece and Turkey who are putting so many people’s lives at risk. I made clear that Britain will continue to contribute, and will step up our contribution, in all these areas.
Turning to Britain’s place in Europe, I have spent the last nine months setting out the four areas where we need reform and meeting all 27 other EU Heads of State and government to reach an agreement that delivers concrete reforms in all four areas. Let me take each in turn.
First, British jobs and British business depend on being able to trade with Europe on a level playing field, so we wanted new protections for our economy to safeguard the pound, to promote our industries—including our financial services industries—to protect British taxpayers from the costs of problems in the eurozone and to ensure that we have a full say over the rules of the single market while remaining outside the eurozone. We got all those things. We have not just permanently protected the pound and our right to keep it but have ensured that we cannot be discriminated against.
Responsibility for supervising the financial stability of the UK will always remain in the hands of the Bank of England. We have ensured that British taxpayers will never be made to bail out countries in the eurozone. We have made sure that the eurozone cannot act as a bloc to undermine the integrity of the free trade single market, and we have guaranteed that British business will never face any discrimination for being outside the eurozone. For example, our financial services firms—our number one services export employing over 1 million people—can never be forced to relocate inside the eurozone if they want to undertake complex trades in euros just because they are based in the UK.
These protections are not just set out in a legally binding agreement; all 28 member states were also clear that the treaties would be changed to incorporate the protections for the UK as an economy that is inside the EU but outside the eurozone. We also agreed a new mechanism to enable non-eurozone countries to raise issues of concern, and we won the battle to ensure that this could be triggered by one country alone. Of course, none of these protections would be available if we were to leave the EU.
Secondly, we wanted commitments to make Europe more competitive, creating jobs and making British families more financially secure, and again we got them. Europe will complete the single market in key areas that will really help Britain: in services, making it easier for thousands of UK service-based companies like IT firms to trade in Europe; in capital, so that UK start-ups can access more sources of finance for their businesses, and in energy, allowing new suppliers into our energy market, meaning lower energy bills for families across the country.
We have secured commitments to complete trade and investment agreements with the fastest-growing and most dynamic economies around the world, including the USA, Japan and China, as well as our Commonwealth allies, India, New Zealand and Australia. These deals could add billions of pounds and thousands of jobs to our economy every year, and, of course, they build on the deals we already have with 53 countries around the world through which Britain has benefited from the negotiating muscle that comes from being part of the world’s largest trading bloc.
Country after country have said to me that of course they could sign trade deals with Britain, but they have also said that their priority would be trade deals with the EU. By their nature, these EU deals would be bigger and better, and a deal with Britain would not even be possible until we had settled our position outside the EU. So for those Members who care about signing new trade deals outside the EU, we would be looking at years and years of delay.
Last but by no means least on competitiveness, one of the biggest frustrations for British business is the red tape and bureaucracy, so we agreed that there will now be targets to cut the total burden of EU regulation on business. This builds on the progress we have already made, with the Commission already cutting the number of new initiatives by 80%, and it means that the cost of EU red tape will be going down, not up. Of course, if we were to leave the EU but ultimately achieve a deal with full access to the single market, like Norway, we would still be subject to all the EU’s regulations when selling into Europe, but with no say over the rules. As the former Europe spokesman for the Norwegian Conservative Party said:
‘If you want to run Europe, you must be in Europe. If you want to be run by Europe, feel free to join Norway in the European Economic Area’.
Thirdly, we wanted to reduce the very high level of migration from within the EU by preventing the abuse of free movement and preventing our welfare system acting as a magnet for people to come to our country. After the hard work of the Home Secretary we have secured new powers against criminals from other countries, including powers to stop them coming here in the first place and powers to deport them if they are already here. We agreed longer re-entry bans for fraudsters and people who collude in sham marriages and an end to the frankly ridiculous situation where EU nationals can avoid British immigration rules when bringing their families from outside the EU.
This agreement broke new ground, with the European Council agreeing to reverse decisions from the European Court of Justice. We have also secured a breakthrough agreement for Britain to reduce the unnatural draw that our benefits system exerts across Europe. We have already made sure that EU migrants cannot claim the new unemployment benefit, universal credit, while looking for work. Those coming from the EU who have not found work within six months can now be required to leave. At this Council we agreed that EU migrants working in Britain can be prevented from sending child benefit home at UK rates. This will apply first to new claimants and then to existing claimants from the start of 2020. We also established a new emergency brake so that EU migrants will have to wait four years until they have full access to our benefits.
People said it was impossible to achieve real change in this area and that a four-year restriction on benefits was completely out of the question, yet that is what we have done. Once activated, the emergency brake will be in place for seven years. So if it begins next year, it will still be operating in 2024 and there will be people who will not be getting full benefits until 2028. All along we have said that people should not be able to come here and get access to our benefits system straightaway—no more something for nothing—and that is what we have achieved.
I am sure that the discussion about welfare and immigration will be intense, but let me just make this point. No country outside the EU has agreed full access to the single market without accepting paying in to the EU and accepting free movement. In addition, our new safeguards lapse if we vote to leave the EU, so we might end up with free movement but without these new protections.
The fourth area where we wanted to make significant changes was to protect our country from further European political integration and to increase powers for our national Parliament. Ever since we joined, Europe has been on the path to something called ever-closer union. It means a political union. We have never liked it, we never wanted it, and now Britain will be permanently and legally excluded from it. The text says that the treaties will be changed to make clear that, and I quote,
‘the Treaty references to ever closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom’.
So, as a result of this negotiation, Britain can never be part of a European superstate.
The Council also agreed that ever-closer union, which has been referred to in previous judgments from the European Court of Justice, does not offer a legal basis for extending the scope of any provision of the treaties or of EU secondary legislation. People used to talk about a multi-speed Europe. Now we have a clear agreement that not only are different countries able to travel at different speeds but they are ultimately able to head to different destinations too. I would argue that that is a fundamental change in the way this organisation works.
We have also strengthened the role of this House and all national Parliaments. We have already passed a referendum Act to make sure that no powers can be handed to Brussels without the explicit consent of the British people in a referendum. Now, if Brussels comes up with legislation we do not want, we can get together with other parliaments and block it with a red card. We have a new mechanism finally to enforce the principle that, as far as possible, powers should sit here in Westminster, not in Brussels. So every year the EU now has to go through the powers it exercises and work out which are no longer needed and should be returned to nation states.
In recent years we have also seen attempts to bypass our opt-out on justice and home affairs by bringing forward legislation under a different label—for example, attempts to interfere with the way the UK authorities handle fraud were made under the guise of EU budget legislation. The agreements at last week’s Council ensure that this can never happen again.
The reforms we have secured will be legally binding in international law and will be deposited as a treaty at the UN. They cannot be unpicked without the agreement of Britain and every other EU country. As I have said, all 28 member states were also clear that the treaties would be changed to incorporate the protections for the UK as an economy outside the eurozone, and our permanent exclusion from ever-closer union.
Our special status means that Britain can have the best of both worlds. We will be in the parts of Europe that work for us, influencing the decisions that affect us, in the driving seat of the world’s biggest single market and with the ability to take action to keep our people safe, but we will be out of the parts of Europe that do not work for us: out of the euro, out of the eurozone bailouts, out of the passport-free, no-borders Schengen area, and permanently and legally protected from ever being part of an ever-closer union.
Of course, there is still more to do. I am the first to say that there are still many ways in which this organisation needs to improve, and the task of reforming Europe does not end with last week’s agreement. But with the special status this settlement gives us, I believe the time has come to fulfil another vital commitment this Government made, and that is to hold a referendum. So, I am today commencing the process set out under our referendum Act to propose that the British people decide our future in Europe through an in/out referendum on Thursday 23 June. The Foreign Secretary has laid in both Houses a report setting out the new settlement that the Government have negotiated. This fulfils the duty to publish information set out in Section 6 of the European Union Referendum Act 2015. As the Cabinet agreed on Saturday, the Government’s position will be to recommend that Britain remains in this reformed European Union.
This is a vital decision for the future of our country. We should also be clear that it is a final decision. An idea has been put forward that if the country votes to leave we could have a second renegotiation and perhaps another referendum. I will not dwell on the irony that some people who want to vote to leave apparently want to use a leave vote to remain. But such an approach also ignores more profound points about democracy, diplomacy and legality. This is a straight democratic decision—staying in or leaving—and no Government can ignore that. Having a second renegotiation followed by a second referendum is not on the ballot paper. For a Prime Minister to ignore the express will of the British people to leave the EU would not just be wrong, it would be undemocratic. On the diplomacy, the idea that other European countries would be ready to start a second negotiation is for the birds. Many are under pressure for what they have already agreed. Then there is the legality—I want to spell out this point carefully for the House because it is important. If the British people vote to leave, there is only one way to bring that about, and that is to trigger Article 50 of the treaties and begin the process of exit. The British people would rightly expect that that should start straightaway.
Let me be absolutely clear how this works: it triggers a two-year time period to negotiate the arrangements for exit. At the end of this period if no agreement is in place, then exit is automatic unless every one of the 27 other EU member states agrees to a delay. We should be clear that this process is not an invitation to rejoin; it is a process for leaving. Sadly, I have known a number of couples who have begun divorce proceedings, but I do not know any who have begun divorce proceedings in order to renew their marriage vows.
I want to explain what would happen if that deal to leave was not done within two years. Our current access to the single market would cease immediately after two years were up, and our current trade agreements with 53 countries around the world would lapse. This cannot be described as anything other than risk, uncertainty and a leap in the dark that could hurt working people in our country for years to come. This is not some theoretical question; this is a real decision about people’s lives. When it comes to people’s jobs, it is simply not enough to say that it will be all right on the night and we will work it out. In the weeks to come we need properly to face up to the economic consequences of a choice to leave.
I believe Britain will be stronger, safer and better off by remaining in a reformed European Union: stronger because we can play a leading role in one of the world’s largest organisations from within, helping to make the big decisions on trade and security that determine our future; safer because we can work with our European partners to fight cross-border crime and terrorism; and better off because British businesses will have full access to the free-trade single market, bringing jobs, investment and lower prices.
There will be much debate about sovereignty—and rightly so. To me what matters most is the power to get things done for our people, for our country, and for our future. Leaving the EU may briefly make us feel more sovereign, but would it actually give us more power, more influence and a greater ability to get things done? No. If we leave the EU, will we have the power to stop our businesses being discriminated against? No. Will we have the power to insist that European countries share with us their border information so we know what terrorists and criminals are doing in Europe? No, we will not. Will we have more influence over the decisions that affect the prosperity and security of British families? No, we will not. We are a great country and whatever choice we make we will still be great, but I believe the choice is between being an even greater Britain inside a reformed EU and a great leap into the unknown. The challenges facing the West today are genuinely threatening: Putin’s aggression in the east; Islamist extremism to the south. In my view this is no time to divide the West. When faced with challenges to our way of life, our values and our freedoms, this is a time for strength in numbers.
I end by saying this: I am not standing for re-election; I have no other agenda than what is best for our country; I am standing here today telling you what I think. My responsibility as Prime Minister is to speak plainly about what I believe is right for our country, and that is what I will do every day for the next four months. I commend this Statement to the House”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for repeating today’s Statement, which is hugely significant for the future of our country and its place in the world. I am also grateful to the Chief Whip for allowing some additional time for Back-Bench contributions and questions.
Clearly, anyone could be forgiven for thinking that the UK’s relationship with the EU was the only issue discussed at the European Council over the weekend. I am grateful that, in the Statement she repeated today, the noble Baroness made it clear that other issues were also debated. It must be immensely frustrating for other countries that issues such as migration, Syria and Libya have not received the same degree of interest as our referendum has. Perhaps that makes a profound point, because those are obviously issues where European and international co-operation are absolutely vital and crucial.
On our role within the EU, the Prime Minister is clearly relieved that a deal has been done and that he has been able to announce the date for the referendum, although at times over the weekend it was all looking slightly dodgy. We were told that, following the completion of negotiations, there would be an English breakfast on Friday morning where the deal would be finalised and then the PM would travel back for a Cabinet meeting in the evening. However, as that breakfast became brunch, brunch became lunch, and lunch became dinner, it was clear that there were still a few sticking points. When we saw Angela Merkel rushing out for a bag of chips as sustenance we knew there was still some way to go. Perhaps the Prime Minister thought that he could starve them into submission. Finally the deal was announced—not exactly what he had asked for but, as any experienced negotiator will confirm, that is the nature of negotiations. The deal had significant changes that certainly cannot be dismissed as unimportant, although some have tried. Then, for the first time since 1982 during the Falklands crisis, the Cabinet met on a Saturday.
There is an historical connection here, in that it was Harold Wilson, the first and until now the only Prime Minister to hold a referendum on the European issue, who is said to have once remarked:
“A week is a long time in politics”,
though his referendum campaign lasted just half the time of ours. If a week is a long time, the next four months of campaigning are going to seem like an absolute eternity. There will be discussions and deliberations and, as leaflet after leaflet extolling the views of one campaign or another is handed out and posted through letterboxes, recycling bins are going to be full to overflowing.
I predict some excellent debates and factually based communications that will inform and enlighten. I also predict nonsense, scaremongering and bad temper. We shall also have some moments of pure theatre. The “will he/won’t he” performance of Boris Johnson’s announcement last night was clearly designed to create the maximum spectacle and drama, and he succeeded in that. He was obviously aware of the deliberate impact that that would have on the Prime Minister.
However, for most of us this issue has to be more than just about personalities and theatrics. It has to be about more than who can shout the loudest or get the most celebrities signed up to their campaign. It is more—so much more—than Mr Cameron’s deal. Support for that view has come from surprising sources. It was almost incredible to hear Chris Grayling yesterday morning on the radio saying that it was a relief rather than difficult to declare his opposition because he, like many others, had made up his mind weeks ago, but had done the right thing and let the Prime Minister continue his negotiations. The right thing? Whatever the Prime Minister returned with was never going to get the support of the very people—his Cabinet and his party—he was trying to please. When, on 2 February, we had that previous Statement I expressed our view that too much of the Prime Minister’s negotiating position had been targeted at his own internal party problems, whereas the only objective must always be the national interest and the key issues that impact on people’s everyday lives.
I am not suggesting that the deal is not helpful. People will have their own views. However, there are so many other issues that are crucial to the UK and to Europe on which we should be taking a lead. We should be exerting our influence and trying to create the kind of EU in which we can take great pride. The Labour Party and the trade unions played a strong role in ensuring that issues such as employment rights, guaranteed paid holidays, paid maternity leave and protection for agency workers were kept out of any renegotiation. Those rights are far too important to be lost or weakened.
The same applies to consumer and environmental protections that have a real and tangible impact on many if not all of us. That includes the cutting of data roaming costs for mobiles and for using the internet, the improvement of air passengers’ rights, clean beaches and bathing water—good for our well-being and a boost to local economies—and how we deal with and dispose of waste. Thanks to EU legislation, on those kind of issues we all benefit. Indeed, given that the air quality here in London and other parts of the UK continues to fall short of EU clean air standards, it would clearly have been more beneficial to the public health of our fellow citizens if the Government had engaged more proactively on this front.
I watched with incredulity yesterday as Iain Duncan Smith claimed that we would be safer out of the EU, as being part of it increased the threat of Paris-style terrorist attacks. Is this the same Iain Duncan Smith who supported the Government’s proposals to opt out of EU measures to deal with crime and policing, including terrorism, and then found out, along with the rest of his party, that they had to opt back in to everything because it actually worked? It worked because it made us safer.
For so long, Brexit campaigners have been telling us that EU citizens travel to the UK in order to get benefits. Then, when the Prime Minister reaches an agreement to cut these, the argument shifts to being that it will not make any difference. You cannot have both sides of the argument at the same time. As this campaign progresses, let us have the kind of debate that can make us proud as a country and as a Parliament. Let us try to recapture some of that vision and promise that was in the hearts and minds of those who first conceived that a way to peace and prosperity was a Europe—which was then divided and devastated by two wars—that would work together with common principles and values for the benefit of all citizens. Let us have a debate of vision and of facts. We should recall that in 1961, our application for membership was vetoed because it was felt that we would be too dominant and powerful through our relationship with the Commonwealth and the US. Yet today we maintain those strong and special relationships alongside our membership of the EU.
None of us would claim that the EU was perfect. We all recognise where it has been weak and where change is needed. But would it not benefit this country if we could again be seen as a powerful figure on the European stage—a powerful country that would take a lead within an EU that works better for working people, strengthens businesses small and large, and brings ongoing and better reform? Why should we not seek to build human rights, employment rights, consumer and environmental protections into future Europe-wide trade treaties? Taking on workers from other countries should never be used as an excuse to drive down wages or disadvantage local workers. Rather than merely seeking greater control for ourselves, why should we not seek to stop the pressure from Brussels to deregulate and sell off public services? That is a matter for national Governments. Why are we not pressing across the EU for a more humanitarian and strategic response to the thousands of refugees seeking asylum, with far too many losing their lives in the process?
Whatever the outcome of the referendum on 23 June, the EU is still going to exist just 21 miles from the shores of Dover and across the border in the Republic of Ireland. That is a fact of life. If we vote to leave, we will still have to manage that reality while our businesses, large and small, that want to trade within the EU will still have to abide by its regulations, which the United Kingdom will have no part in making. During this referendum we will hear a lot of talk about sovereignty, independence and what it means to be a nation state in the ever-changing world of the 21st century. We have already heard quite a bit about patriotism. I so hope that neither side in this debate will seek to claim ownership of patriotism or denigrate anyone else’s.
As I said earlier, and I am sure that I speak for many Members of your Lordships’ House, I hope that the debate will be more informative and enlightening than it is misleading and ill tempered. However, my plea is deeper than that. Already today, we have heard the news that the pound is falling in value, partly from the uncertainty of Brexit and partly because of a Government who are now seen as divided and preoccupied. This makes the need for a constructive, positive debate not just important but absolutely essential. Four months is a long time. The Government must not be so preoccupied with this debate that they lose focus on other issues. The debate has to be about the future of the UK and not that of the Conservative Party, as entertaining as that may be, because this is not about entertainment. This is a huge decision that faces each and every one of us. In the Statement which the noble Baroness repeated, there was the comment that this is not just a theoretical question but a real decision about people’s lives. We entirely concur with that statement.
The British people deserve a proper debate ahead of 23 June. My party has set out its position clearly and with conviction. We look forward to making the case for a stronger, open and confident Britain remaining as an engaged, challenging and leading member of the EU.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for repeating the Prime Minister’s Statement. At the outset, I declare my registered interest as a member of the board of Britain Stronger in Europe. I say gently to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, that twice in her remarks she talked about four months being a long time. A number of us in your Lordships’ House who are veterans of three and a half years on the Scottish referendum would think four months a relative relief.
Those of us on these Benches very much welcome the Prime Minister’s successful renegotiations in Europe last week. The hard work that he put in, not only last week but in the weeks leading up to it, was very evident and it is fair to say that what he came away with exceeded many people’s initial expectations. We also welcome the willingness of other EU member states to work with the United Kingdom to reach this compromise. That demonstrates the degree of good will towards the United Kingdom from other EU Governments, and their commitment to maintaining British membership. I was delighted yesterday to hear the Prime Minister setting out, at long last, the strategic case for the United Kingdom continuing its membership of the European Union. It was very welcome, too, that the Prime Minister took the opportunity in his Statement to knock on the head the fanciful idea that, in the event of an out vote, there could be a second renegotiation and a second referendum.
The referendum vote in June will be of the utmost significance. It will settle not only Britain’s relations with Europe, but our place in the world. We very much believe that the United Kingdom will derive strength from being seen as a team player and engaged in international affairs. It is an illusion of sovereignty to suggest that, if we come out, we will somehow get sovereignty back. Liberal Democrats are firmly committed to the United Kingdom’s place in the European Union. We are united in our belief that the United Kingdom is better when it is united with our colleagues in Europe. In an uncertain world of challenges and threats, I also believe that Europe is better and stronger for having the United Kingdom in it as a member state.
We have spoken from these Benches on a number of occasions about how we will use the campaign to speak about the positive case for Britain remaining within the EU. In the EU, Britain can thrive. Together, we will be a stronger and more prosperous nation, securing jobs and creating opportunity for our children and grandchildren. We have created together the world’s largest free trade area, we have delivered peace, and we have given the British people the opportunity to live, work and travel freely. History shows that Britain is better when it is united with our European partners. Together, we are stronger in the fight against the global problems that do not stop at borders. We can combat international crime, fight climate change, and together provide hope and opportunity for the future.
It is worth reflecting for a moment on the creation of the European Union and its lasting legacy. After decades of brutal conflict on the continent, European nations came together in co-operation. To this day, neighbours and allies support each other in what remains the world’s most successful project in peace. We remain stronger together in continuing the fight against terrorists who despise our liberal and modern way of life. Will the noble Baroness the Leader of the House take the opportunity to repudiate the alarmist comments made by her colleague, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, when he said that remaining in the EU exposes Britain to a Paris-style terrorist attack? Does she agree that it is only by working in co-operation with our international friends and neighbours that we can combat such threats to our security?
Britain is already stronger and better off trading and working with Europe. We are part of the world’s largest single market, allowing British businesses to grow and prosper. Our people have more opportunities to work, travel and learn than ever before. Staying in the EU gives our children and grandchildren greater prospects, and the best chance to succeed. Does the noble Baroness share my concerns, therefore, at the dramatic fall in sterling today—referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith—which we believe was driven in great part by fear of Brexit? Does she agree that the threat of leaving the EU is already costing British businesses and that it would be much worse for British exporters if we were to withdraw from the world’s biggest single market? Can the noble Baroness indicate when we will get the Government’s report on EU membership under Section 7 of the European Referendum Act that Parliament passed towards the end of last year?
This country’s place in the world depends on our getting on well with our neighbours, who share our values and interests. Does the noble Baroness the Leader of the House agree that this referendum is about the kind of country we want to leave to our children and grandchildren, and about how we think of ourselves as a country? Does she agree that issues such as climate change and the natural environment are better tackled when we come together to think about the world we want to leave to future generations?
There has been speculation about a statement or an initiative on sovereignty, which was lacking from the Prime Minister’s Statement today. Before going down that particular road—it may just have been a ruse to try to bring Boris on board—will the noble Baroness reflect that in fact further piecemeal constitutional meddling of that kind may end up with consequences more damaging than the ones they seek to resolve? Will she give the House an indication of the Government’s thinking on that?
Finally, will the noble Baroness confirm that this is, indeed, a once-in-a-generation decision and that there is only one opportunity to show that the United Kingdom is not a country that is isolated and sidelined but one that is open, outward-facing and proud of its place in the international community, and that an out vote means taking the United Kingdom back and an in vote means taking the United Kingdom forward?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, for their remarks and their support for what the Prime Minister has negotiated in Europe this weekend.
I shall start by reflecting on the significance of the events at the end of last week. On Friday my right honourable friend the Prime Minister did something that many people had predicted was not possible: he delivered a legally binding, irreversible renegotiation of our relationship with the European Union. In doing so he secured a new settlement, carving out a special status for this country that gives us the best of both worlds and means that we remain in the parts of Europe that work for us—the noble Lords have talked about some of them—around making sure that we are stronger and safer. That most definitely includes security: although we retain our responsibility to national security, we benefit from the co-operation of our partners in Europe in terms of protecting ourselves from terrorism. Through his renegotiation my right honourable friend has secured terms that mean we will be better off because of increasing competitiveness and the securing of the completion of the single market. He has also made sure that we stay out of the parts that are not in our best interests and have frustrated us for too long.
Having secured all that, we now need to get on with our other commitment to deliver to the British people the opportunity that they have long waited for to have their say on whether Britain should remain in or leave the European Union. The noble Baroness made reference to four months and the time between now and the referendum taking place. I note what the noble and learned Lord said about the length of time of the Scottish referendum campaign. I say to noble Lords that the reason why it is four months is that we are reflecting the proper processes and steps that it was agreed in the European Union Referendum Act should take place between now and the referendum happening. That process has started today: the statutory instrument confirming the date has been laid. That will be debated in both Houses and is subject to an affirmative resolution. Today we have also published the White Paper, which meets one of the requirements of the referendum Act regarding the other information that we as a Government are required to produce. That will happen, in line with the Bill, 10 weeks before the referendum takes place. So that is all in train.
With regard to other points raised by the noble Lords, I say to the noble Baroness, who talked about wanting to see the UK remaining a powerful figure within Europe as a result of the referendum, that I agree with her. We are a powerful player in Europe now and that is what we want to remain. She made the point that the European Union would continue to exist even if the United Kingdom voted to leave. She is absolutely right: if this country decided to come out, the European Union would still be there. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said when he was being interviewed yesterday, one of my Cabinet colleagues said on Saturday when we were discussing his renegotiation, “This utopia might sound fantastic but I bet that when you got there, there would still be a European Union”. It is a place that will exist because other people would be members of it even if we were not.
The noble Baroness said it would be important that between now and the referendum taking place the Government continued to govern, and that there are other matters of greater importance to the people of this country. I agree with her about that; we have important business to conduct and will continue to do so.
The noble and learned Lord made reference to the effect on the currency markets. In my view, such an effect between now and the referendum taking place would be about uncertainty: we are now in a state where there is a debate going on and there is some uncertainty about the result of that referendum. What I, the Prime Minister and the Government are arguing is that, by voting to remain in the European Union, we would provide certainty for the future of this country. If this country decides to leave the European Union, it would create a long period of uncertainty.
As to the noble and learned Lord’s question about the sovereignty of Parliament, we have already, in the last few years, protected the sovereignty of this Parliament by passing that Act in 2011, which means that never again can any Prime Minister give away powers to the European Union without coming back to this country and giving the people a say. The very fact that we are having a referendum later this year, in June, is also an act of sovereignty. It also means that the people of this country are in charge of their own destiny. I very much believe and hope that the result of the referendum will see that we remain strong and secure in our future, having the best of both worlds, which means being part of a reformed Europe, but also being in charge of our own destiny and taking advantage of the changes that the Prime Minister has been able to negotiate.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)
My Lords, we are now into an extended period of 40 minutes, which reflects the importance of the Statement made by my noble friend the Leader of the House. We will make the most of that time if noble Lords, with a little bit of self-discipline, restrict themselves to short questions. On top of that, we will be able to go around the House in our usual way.
Lord Hague of Richmond (Con)
My Lords, now that the negotiations conducted by the Prime Minister can be subject to intense scrutiny and analysis, does my noble friend agree that it is very important that all possible alternative arrangements with the European Union be subject to an equivalent degree of scrutiny and analysis? Is it not the case that, as even many of us who are long-standing critics of the EU have to recognise, there would be a basic choice between leaving the single market in order to escape its requirements, freedom of movement and regulations, and staying in the single market with those same requirements and regulations? Would that not represent a loss of sovereignty rather than the recovery of sovereignty?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I do not think the House will be surprised to hear me say that I very much agree with my noble friend. He is absolutely right: anybody campaigning for Britain to leave the European Union will have to spell out what that means and what they are suggesting the people of this country would be voting for. They need to be specific about the model that is being proposed. If it is a model like Norway, they need to explain to the people of this country that there is no cost-free alternative; that is important for people to understand. There is not another way in which there is no disadvantage. It is quite possible for the United Kingdom to survive and prosper outside of the European Union, but we believe that Britain would remain stronger in the EU, and it is for others to make their case as to what “leave” means.
Lord Kinnock (Lab)
My Lords, does the Leader of the House agree that it is neither pessimistic nor defeatist for us to argue for the United Kingdom to remain in the European Union? It is total commitment to advancing and upholding the stability, security and well-being of our beloved country. It is practical patriotism instead of the risk-riddled leap into the unknown of leaving. Will she therefore dismiss the glib and duplicitous suggestion that voting to leave will somehow compel the European Union to amenably accommodate the economic preferences of the United Kingdom outside the EU? Being pro having cake and pro eating it is an infantile desire, not an adult reality. I hope she will agree that the choice is in or out, not “in, out, shake it all about” and then rashly hope that something helpful will turn up for a country that has abandoned all rights, influence and power by leaving the EU.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I certainly agree with the noble Lord that voting to remain in the European Union is very much a patriotic decision. If we cast our vote in that way, we are recognising the power and influence we wield as our country in that European Union, and that we will have both the benefit of being in that Union and—because of what has been renegotiated—greater control of our destiny than we have been able to have up to now. The noble Lord is absolutely right about voting to leave. To vote to leave means to leave, and that will be it: it is about being either in or out.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)
My Lords, in my view the agreement reached by the Prime Minister is both substantive and valuable and I thank him for the efforts he made to achieve that. Can the noble Baroness perhaps cast some light on the views of the Mayor of London, who appears to think that if we vote to remain, that will be a green light for federalism? If that is so, why are all the federalist leader-writers on the continent rending their garments because of the agreement reached last week? Could he perhaps be wrong and, while we are at it, could he just understand that the motto of the European Union is not “E pluribus unum” but “United in diversity”?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I think I will leave the noble Lord to get into a battle about Latin with somebody else—I hope he will forgive me, but I will not engage in that. However, I am very grateful to him for recognising that what the Prime Minister achieved in Brussels was substantive and valuable. He is quite right about the reaction in Europe to what the Prime Minister has achieved. Unfortunately, I have only recently been given some quotes so I will not try to read them out, but clearly, the other leaders in Europe have been able to explain to their people that the UK has got itself a new status in Europe, with new terms. They have also acknowledged that, with the exception of the specific carve-out for the United Kingdom on ever closer union, the changes the Prime Minister has negotiated are to the benefit of Europe as a whole—this is not just about a benefit for the UK—and have acknowledged just how hard the Prime Minister pressed them during these negotiations. The noble Baroness referred to the scenes in Europe. I argue that they demonstrated just how difficult it was for the Prime Minister to get this better deal for the UK. On that basis, we can have every confidence in it.
Baroness Ludford (LD)
My Lords, I am delighted that the Prime Minister has shifted to making the big, positive, patriotic case for our membership of the European Union; it is perhaps a pity that he has not been making that case over the last decade. Perhaps I may ask the noble Baroness, with a slight note of concern, how the Government will avoid the adverse consequences of what I might call the “be careful what you wish for” aspects. One is the special status she just talked about, which is in some respects a semi-detached status. How will we make sure that the UK truly is in the lead on EU policy areas such as security and climate change, where we want to be fully engaged? Secondly, although the red card is unlikely ever to be used, there is a danger that it could be used by national parliaments ganging up against the liberalisation of services in the single market in a protectionist way that would not be in our favour. Lastly, on the sovereignty angle—my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace referred to a constitutional court—if the UK Supreme Court becomes a constitutional court that can override Parliament, how will that increase British parliamentary sovereignty domestically?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
The noble Baroness covered a lot of ground and she will forgive me for not dealing with all those points, in order to allow other noble Lords to get in. She suggested that the Prime Minister is only now making the positive case for Britain’s membership of the European Union; I disagree. It is also very important for us to acknowledge that there has been a great deal of frustration among the people of this country about the way Europe has operated for a long time. They have been frustrated at not getting the opportunity to have a referendum. The Prime Minister is being so positive about what he is putting forward to the United Kingdom because he has addressed people’s concerns through his renegotiation and is giving them the opportunity finally to have their say. That is an essential and important part of the message that we need to deliver.
On the noble Baroness’s other points, what is important about ever-closer union and what the Prime Minister was seeking to address in his renegotiation is that we now have the power—which we never had before—not to be involved in things we do not think are in Britain’s interests.
Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)
Does my noble friend agree that, however one regards the details of the deal, there can be no doubt that our right honourable friend the Prime Minister has opened up huge new opportunities for the reform of Europe as a whole? As we have reached this point, will she encourage her colleagues in government from now on to put maximum brainpower, energy and imagination into working with the other peoples of Europe to achieve the fundamental reforms the European Union desperately needs in the face of its present crises, and for which most of the people of Europe are yearning?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My noble friend makes an important point which the Prime Minister, I and others in government are very conscious of. He is quite right, and as I think I said to him when I repeated the previous Statement, this is not the end but the start of a process of reform. We want Europe to work in the best interests of all its peoples. It started reforming. It started changing. It started reducing some of the regulation and burdens that we know are not in people’s interests, but more needs to be done and we will very much support that.
Lord Soley (Lab)
Does the Minister agree that, important as the economic arguments are—and I am sure they will take pride of place in the coming months—we must not lose sight of the political and security arguments? Europe is facing challenges in the east from President Putin and in the Mediterranean area and Syria, and there are security problems between the nation states of Europe trying to unite to face those threats, so can she make sure that those arguments are heard? They are profoundly important to the stability of this country and of Europe.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I very much agree with the noble Lord. One of the advantages of being in Europe—and for us to make clear to the people of this country—is that we have led the way in some of the action that has been taken in the last few years to make sure that we are more secure, whether it is issuing sanctions against Putin or increasing the co-operation between member states on sharing information to defeat terrorism. That is a very good and powerful reason for us to remain in the European Union and an argument that we must continue to make.
Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)
My Lords, I declare an interest as the present chairman of Vote Leave. Is it not clear that the trivial and inconsequential changes that the Prime Minister has secured—subject to legal challenge, of course—fall far, far short of the fundamental, far-reaching reform which three years ago in his Bloomberg speech he said was necessary? Is it not clear that the referendum on 23 June will be about not whether we wish to remain in a reformed European Union but whether we wish to remain in an unreformed European Union, which, alas, it has proved itself to be? However, there is one thing that I welcome. In his Statement the Prime Minister has admitted—I think for the first time but, if not, it is the first time that I can recall—that the purpose of the European Union is to create full-blooded political union. That is clear in the Statement. However, he says that we shall not be part of it. Maybe we will not be but we will still be shackled to it and will have a quasi-colonial status—that is the closest parallel that I can think of. Is it not the case that the referendum on 23 June will be about whether we wish to be a self-governing, independent democracy?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
As my noble friend knows, it always pains me to have to disagree with him, but I disagree in particular with his description of what the Prime Minister secured through his renegotiation in Europe. To describe it as trivial and inconsequential is just not accurate. My noble friend is right in that the Prime Minister acknowledges that the European Union is about political union, but he has secured that we are not a part of that—it is in a legally binding document. It is very clear that we are carved out of it. Furthermore—this point has not had much of an airing—not only do we have a United Kingdom carve-out but the document says:
“The references in the Treaties and their preambles to the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe do not offer a legal basis for extending the scope of any provision of the Treaties or of EU secondary legislation”.
That is an instruction to the European Court of Justice and it will apply not just to us but to everybody else who is a member of the European Union and does not want to be part of a political union.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a board member of Britain Stronger In Europe. Does the noble Baroness agree that there is an overwhelming economic case for us to remain as a member of the European Union? Nowhere is that more the case than in Wales. Over recent years we have seen international companies from Japan, the United States and elsewhere locating there to sell to the European Union. Leaving the Union would destabilise that relationship and undermine our economy.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
Yes, I agree with the noble Lord. We have to acknowledge the foreign investment that comes into this country and into Wales, a lot of which is from European Union countries. We benefit tremendously from our trade as part of that single market, and we would put that very severely at risk if we were to leave.
Lord Spicer (Con)
My noble friend has just talked about a legally binding document protecting our interests. How do the Government then deal with the question of the acquis communautaire and the fact that the so-called watertight legislative protection of our rights in the past has never survived challenges in the court? These matters have to be addressed if some credibility is to be given to this so-called legally binding document.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
In the interests of time and the fact that many people want to get in, I shall say to my noble friend Lord Spicer what I said to my noble friend Lord Lawson. The Prime Minister has secured, for the first time ever, a return of powers to a nation state. That has never happened before. He has secured that and we can now take advantage of it—something that we have never been able to do before.
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)
My Lords, last week at the Munich security conference the United States Secretary of State, John Kerry, expressed the hope of having a strong United Kingdom within a strong European Union. In the opinion of the noble Baroness, why should the United States attach such significance to our continuing membership of the EU?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
It does so because it sees how influential we are in the European Union. It sees that we not only have an impact on the very important international and global issues of the day but bring a lot to what happens in the rest of the European Union. That is why the US wants us to stay.
Lord Clinton-Davis (Lab)
I speak as a former European Commissioner. It is absolutely essential that we remain in the European Union, expressing our point of view and being able to judge whether something that has been put forward is in our interests. We can say what we like there. To say that we have no influence—an argument advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Lawson—is absurd. I speak from experience. You have to go through all the institutions of the European Union, not only the Commission, and eventually you end up with a compromise. That is not a dirty word. In my view, it is absolutely essential that 28 countries should perform like that and come to a reasonable decision. To experiment in the way put forward by those who oppose remaining in the EU would be absolutely absurd. In my view, membership of the Union is essential and we should have no doubt about that. We do have a voice.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
It is important not only that we make the strong case for membership of the European Union that the noble Lord has outlined, but that we stress that we are confident in making that case because of the reforms that the Prime Minister has been able to secure. We must not underestimate people’s frustration with the European Union, and we were not happy with the status quo.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
We have not heard from the Cross Benches for some time.
Lord Bilimoria
My Lords, first, perhaps I may just build on what the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, said. Should not the Prime Minister make more of the fact that it means a lot to countries dealing with the United Kingdom that we are part of the European Union? Countries such as India see the UK as a gateway to Europe and I do not think that enough is made of that. Secondly, perhaps I may build on what the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said. The Prime Minister talks about the best of both worlds. You can be a Eurosceptic, as I think I am—I hate the way that the European Parliament works and the fact that it has to go to Strasbourg every month, and I hate the gravy train, the waste of money and the fact that nobody I am aware of knows who their MEP is—and still believe that it is the lesser of two evils, rather than the best of both worlds. Does the Minister agree that it is probably better to stay in the European Union because it is the best of both worlds and the lesser of two evils?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
Or you might say, “Better the devil you know”. Basically, I agree with the noble Lord: you do not have to be a raging Euro-enthusiast and to have been so for donkey’s years to support staying in the European Union. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, this is patriotic. We believe very much in the power and sovereignty of the United Kingdom, and we believe that by being in Europe we can have, as the Prime Minister described it, the best of both worlds. As to the point of the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, about making more of the way in which we are a gateway to the rest of Europe, I agree with him, and the Prime Minister is already making that case. We have four months to go and he will keep making that case. I hope that the noble Lord and others will help us in that task.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick
Does the Minister recall an interview given some time ago by Jacques Delors in the German newspaper Handelsblatt in which he said this:
“If the British cannot support the trend towards more integration in Europe, we can nevertheless remain friends, but on a different basis. I could imagine a form such as a European economic area or a free-trade agreement”?
Does not that show, without prejudging it, that there is an alternative available, or was Delors just completely wrong?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My noble friend is right to say that there is an alternative—of course there is an alternative. That is why there are two choices for the British people: to leave or to remain. The alternative—and it may be something like the Norway model—is not inconceivable, but it would not be without cost and is not something that we should walk blindly into without recognising that it brings with it its own disadvantages. We have to be clear what the alternative is. That is what the next few weeks and months will have to be about in this debate: if there is an alternative, what is it?
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)
My Lords, can I follow up on the particular point that has just been raised and the excellent point that was raised by my noble friend Lord Hain? Since the Minister and I are on exactly the same side—enthusiastically, and for the first time ever, I think—can I ask her a favour? Will she go back to the Cabinet and say, “Let us find some way of requiring these people who are against the present arrangement to put forward their alternatives so that we can examine them in detail”? They need to be required to do that so we can see clearly what the alternative is. If the Cabinet can come up with some kind of arrangement for that, I will give it and the Minister three cheers.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
It is for those who want to campaign to leave to come up with their arguments and the case for that. It is not for me, on the opposite side of the argument, to try to find a mechanism for them to do so; that is their responsibility. We will go through the process of formally designating the leave campaign and, as part of that process, I imagine that the respective group that is successful will be the one that the Electoral Commission feels has covered all the requirements set out for it.
Lord Framlingham
My Lords, I am sure the Leader of the House will agree with me that the most important thing in the next four months will be to put the arguments—all the arguments—as fairly as possible before the British people. All the Front Benches in this House are for staying in and all the Front Benches in the House of Commons are for staying in. This afternoon, the Prime Minister confirmed that he is going to use the whole power of the Civil Service to campaign to stay in. Does the Leader of the House think that that is entirely fair and right, and should it be of some concern to our House?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
On the last point that my noble friend makes, the Government have adopted a position and are not neutral on this. We are arguing to remain in a reformed European Union because we believe that that is in the best interests of the people of this country. But, ultimately, it is for them to decide. Like the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, my noble friend is right to say that the people who would advance leaving have to make their case and be clear in their arguments. To be honest, the inclusion in the campaigns of some very significant figures—potentially from this House and from the other place; I do not know how everybody is going to vote—means that there will be a serious debate over the next few weeks. I think that that is a good thing.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I wonder whether we might hear from the noble Lord, Lord Low.
Lord Low of Dalston (CB)
My Lords, it would be entirely appropriate for the Government to make the case which they support for remaining in the European Union with all the strength at their command. The case for remaining within the European Union does not stand or fall by the details of the deal that the Prime Minister negotiated in Brussels at the weekend. Nevertheless, it is very clear from the Prime Minister’s Statement, which the noble Baroness the Leader of the House has repeated for us, that the deal tends much more to the substantial and significant, as was depicted by my noble friend Lord Hannay, rather than the trivial and inconsequential, as portrayed by the noble Lord, Lord Lawson. However, it is probably fair to say that the balance of the media comment and their portrayal of the deal has tended towards the trivial and inconsequential. Given that, will the Minister provide an assurance that the Government will spare no effort to get across to the British people the substantial and significant progress that the Prime Minister has made in persuading the European Union to accommodate the British position and that it does not remain within the Westminster bubble, as we have heard it described this afternoon?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I certainly think that the Government have a responsibility to be clear about what they are advancing and to communicate that directly to the people. But I also think that the media play an important part in our democratic process. Noble Lords have been arguing about other people making their case, and it is important as well that, through the media, people get to hear the arguments for and against. I would never stand at this Dispatch Box and criticise the work of the UK media.
Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Baroness the Leader of the House will be well aware that there is no doubt whatever that the people of our nation are safer in terms of terrorism and serious organised crime because we are part of the EU. We lead Europol and have the European arrest warrant and all sorts of things. At the grand strategic level of defence, there is no doubt that NATO is most important to us. However, does the noble Baroness agree that Europe is very important to our nation? We have twice saved its bacon in the last 100 years and there is no doubt that, at the moment, there are huge threats. If we left the EU, I think there would be a certain flakiness within it. Does the noble Baroness agree? This is a very bad moment for that to happen. Europe needs us and, if it becomes flaky, the risks from people like Putin and the southern flank would be huge. We need to bear these things in mind.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
That is why the Prime Minister has said that perhaps the only person who would cheer if we were to vote to leave would be Putin. Clearly, we do not want to do anything that is going to brighten up his day.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)
My Lords, will the Minister tell us how this pathetic deal is in any way the fundamental reform of the EU itself that we were promised? For instance, can she tell us how it has reduced the hugely undemocratic powers of the Luxembourg court and the European Commission? The Prime Minister tries to frighten us by talking about leaving the European Union as being a leap in the dark that will, for example, lose us our present access to the single market. Does the Minister accept that Europe sells us very much more than we sell them, that we have 3 million jobs exporting to them but they have 4.5 million jobs exporting to us, and that we are in fact their largest client? Does she accept that they need our free trade very much more than we need theirs? Can she tell us why that trade will not continue, because they will come running after us to have it?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
No, I am afraid I do not agree with the noble Lord’s description of who benefits most, Europe or us, from the relationship. I shall not take up time rattling through all the statistics, but I say this to the noble Lord: in the end, it is about what is of greater benefit to all of us—to the UK and to the rest of Europe. As a trading bloc, we all benefit from the UK being in the European Union. It is not just about how we benefit in this country—although we do. As for the noble Lord’s questions about sovereignty, I refer him to what I said to my noble friend Lord Lawson. I really do disagree with what he says about that.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, as we begin four months of campaigning, should we not just gently reflect that the most publicly apparent achievement of eight years of amusing, dynamic, flamboyant leadership in London has been gridlock?
Lord Maclennan of Rogart (LD)
My Lords, is not the greatest achievement of the European Union, to which we have belonged since the 1970s, the fact that we have had 70 years of peace? After the two world wars Britain was financially at a loss. We lost our empire and we lost our ability to spend, and this is the whole purpose of the European Union being saved. If we left the European Union we would destabilise it, and that might lead to a break-up.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
The noble Lord certainly puts a clear case for the European Union and for our remaining in it. Much as I agree with what he has said, there is something that cannot be repeated often enough, particularly for those who are undecided—and we must always remember that a lot of people are unsure of which way to vote. So although the noble Lord is right, we also need to emphasise that the European Union does not work quite as we want it to in all areas. That is why we have been renegotiating the terms, and we are now confident enough to advocate staying in.
Lord Blencathra (Con)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a supporter of Vote Leave. Does my noble friend agree with me—she probably does not—that the real threat we face, and the huge frightening leap in the dark, would be if we now remained in Europe? Europe has seen that Britain is a bit of a paper tiger. A few years ago we were saying that we wanted fundamental and far-reaching reform. Then we asked for very little, and I am afraid we settled for a lot less. When Europe comes to implement the next treaty change and the Five Presidents’ Report, and as it heads for being an ever-tighter federalist superstate, will we not be ignored, mocked, sidelined and completely stitched up?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
As my noble friend predicted, I do not agree with him. One area that I would point to in order to illustrate my disagreement is what the Prime Minister secured around economic governance. Again, I do not think that it has been properly understood yet how significant the protections that he has secured are—not just for our currency, but for the City of London and our financial services. I assure my noble friend that the other member states, and particularly the French President, were in no way shy about fighting hard to prevent us getting what we wanted, but we secured a good deal for Britain in the end.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
Will the Minister convey to the Prime Minister the relief that we on this side of the House feel—indeed, our sincere congratulations—that he is beginning to put such an unequivocal and clear case for our membership of the European Union? Will she urge him, in the months that lie ahead, to put that case to the whole country, including Labour supporters and people of no party affiliation, and not just to conduct a desperate internal debate inside the Conservative Party?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I can certainly reassure the noble Lord that the Prime Minister will do exactly what he has just outlined. This is not about the Conservative Party; it is about the future of the United Kingdom. What we are doing here is what we believe is in the best interests of the people of this country.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab)
My Lords, if the country votes out on 23 June, should not the first action the Government take be to repeal the European Communities Act 1972? That would enable negotiations to take place under Article 50. Secondly, is the Minister aware that earlier this month the original six leaders of the EEC came out and said that it was absolutely essential for Europe to proceed to ever-closer union, including fiscal union? In those circumstances, if Britain is not to be in that particular club, will we stop talking about being at the heart of Europe?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
As I have already explained, what the Prime Minister has secured on ever-closer union means is that we, the United Kingdom, can be a member of the European Union in a way that properly reflects what we want from being a member. As the Prime Minister said in his Statement, we never wanted to be part of a political union, and now we have a legally binding agreement, which will be amended in the treaties, to show that we will not be part of an ever-closer union even if other members of the EU decide that is what they want.
Lord Willetts (Con)
My Lords, we are rightly told that Britain’s future is as a global trading nation. But often, on trade missions abroad, one would find that other EU member states such as Germany and France had been there before us. So will the Minister confirm that membership of the European Union is not an obstacle to fulfilling those ambitions, and that we should not use our membership as an excuse for failing to tackle problems in our own performance?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My noble friend makes an important point. I very much agree with him that we have a responsibility always to get the best for Britain, whether we are acting independently and unilaterally or as part of the European Union, and we should never use the European Union as an excuse for our own inefficiencies or inadequacies.
Scotland Bill
(8 years, 2 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord McFall of Alcluith
“Non-budget expenditure and the Scottish Consolidated Fund: further provisions
Before the end of the first month of each financial year, the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament a full record, including minutes of meetings and Ministerial correspondence, of discussions between the Secretary of State, the Treasury and Scottish Ministers relating to the non-budget expenditure to be voted by Parliament authorising the payment of grants to the Scottish Consolidated Fund for that financial year.”
Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)
My Lords, Amendment 75 provides for the process leading to annual settlement between the Treasury and Scottish Ministers of the block grant to Scotland, to the Scottish Consolidated Fund. In tabling the amendment, we focus on transparency and accountability.
I will also speak to Amendment 75A, in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Kerr and Lord Turnbull, on borrowing powers. They may already be in place for all we know and I would like the Minister to enlighten us on that.
Amendment 79F in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, seeks the publication of the fiscal framework within 30 days of the Act being passed, if not before. Amendment 79G would expand the role of the Scottish Fiscal Commission, which is welcome, and Amendment 76 in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, establishes the commission as per the recommendation by the Scottish Affairs Select Committee and the need to review the fiscal framework at least every five years. For that, we need a timetable and we ask: why is a review needed?
The Joint Exchequer Committee, chaired by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Greg Hands, has met 10 times already. It has been clouded in secrecy and we have heard already this afternoon about the need to lift the veil on that, particularly on the area of the sticking points. Up to this weekend, there was a daily, unattributed briefing from the Scottish Government, which was largely negative and unspecific in tone, but nothing from the UK Government, for which they should be commended. But that highlights the problem raised by the Economic Affairs Committee, which is that nobody knows what is going on. We need a deal securing Barnett because the powers that are being given to the Scottish Parliament are too important to walk away from. If I have one message for the Minister, it is that we cannot down tools at the moment.
We have had artificial deadlines, the latest being Valentine’s Day, or 14 February. This side is telling the Minister to negotiate right up to the end—to 23 March if need be. The powers that the Scottish Parliament will receive are without parallel elsewhere. Keep in mind that the Scotland Act 2012 devolved income tax, stamp duty, land tax and landfill tax, established Revenue Scotland and provided the Scottish Parliament with borrowing powers. Smith has now added income tax, with unrestricted power to set rates and thresholds for tax on non-savings and non-dividend incomes. There is also the receipt of the first 10% of the standard rate of VAT. If the Scottish Government grow the economy, the extra revenue coming from that will be for the Scottish Government and Scottish people alone, and we must not forget the aggregates levy and the airport duty tax.
The income tax that has been devolved is £11 billion. The VAT generated will be, as I mentioned earlier, for the Scottish economy alone, so Smith will result in the amount of revenue that the Scottish Parliament is responsible for being raised to double the amount that it has at the moment, from £8 billion to £16 billion, with an extra £5 billion in VAT revenue. Together, those revenues will account for more than half of the Scottish Government’s annual budget and around 40% of all revenue raised in Scotland.
The question that is still pertinent for the Joint Exchequer Committee is: how do we adjust the block grant to take account of the devolution of tax and spend powers? The Scottish Affairs Committee’s report, which was excellent, stated that Smith’s unanswered question, which we all agree with, was how to index the adjustment to the block grant so that the principle of no detriment and taxpayer fairness is satisfied. That question is unanswered at the moment.
Amendment 75 has to be seen in such a context, where transparency and accountability should be the primary considerations. On transparency and accountability, borrowing is extremely important, as was mentioned in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. Dr Angus Armstrong said in his evidence to the Scottish Affairs Committee that the question of Scottish borrowing powers is perhaps the most important in the whole debate. In that regard, we support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr.
Let us remind ourselves of the capital borrowing powers, which are currently £200 million per year with a £500 million cumulative ceiling. It would be helpful, as the Scottish Affairs Committee recommended, if a prudential capital borrowing regime were introduced and put on a statutory basis. We are mindful that the Scottish Government can borrow from the UK Government, the National Loans Fund and commercial lenders, and can issue their own government bonds. That is important as the bedrock because the National Loans Fund allows the Scottish Government to borrow on very favourable terms. If the Scottish Government can find even more favourable terms, they can go there, but the bedrock is the National Loans Fund. Again, the Scottish Affairs Committee asked for a specific limit on current capital borrowing to be set and for the criteria on which that limit is based to be published. We agree with those recommendations completely.
The amendment in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, asks for the establishment of a commission, which is another recommendation of the Scottish Affairs Committee. Therein, the need for transparency and independence is essential. We thought a number of weeks ago that the Scottish Government were going along with that line of independence when the Finance Committee under the chairmanship of its convener, SNP member Mr Gibson, said,
“we are strongly of the view that not only should the Scottish Fiscal Commission be independent, but it is vital that it is perceived to be independent. That is why we are calling for the Bill to be amended to strengthen the Commission’s role and to give it responsibility for producing the official forecasts”.
Only a month later in the Scottish Parliament, the Scottish Government reversed their view on that issue and Mr Gibson did not fulfil that cross-party recommendation from the Finance Committee. The need for a Scottish fiscal commission to be given responsibility for setting the finance and the forecast that the Scottish Government budget is based on is hugely important. We ask the Minister to look at that issue again.
We should remind ourselves of today’s report from the Treasury Committee in the House of Commons, which secured, under a freedom of information request, emails from the Treasury to the Office for Budget Responsibility. There is a perception that the Government were leaning on the OBR to ensure that the wording in the terminology was changed to favour Her Majesty’s Treasury. I made that point a number of weeks ago in this Chamber when the Chancellor of the Exchequer found £30 billion behind the sofa and the OBR came up with that particular figure. I said then that it was important for Robert Chote and the OBR to underline its independence. If trust in the statistics is questioned at all, trust in the whole of government also crumbles. What applies for the Treasury must apply for the Scottish Parliament, and when we are starting afresh with the Scottish Parliament, the need to underline that independence is really crucial.
Amendment 79G, tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, is also crucial because it asks for the independent scrutiny of the public finances. That recommendation by the noble and learned Lord was preceded by an article he wrote in the Herald a number of weeks ago, for which I commend him. It was an excellent article. From what we have heard today and from what the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, has proposed, it is clear that the scrutiny that we are giving the Bill is happening only in this House; it is not happening elsewhere. Therefore, the article by the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, and the amendments have to be taken very seriously.
The Minister presented us with the letter from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Greg Hands, at 1 pm today. I commend the Government and the Chief Secretary for that letter, but we were rather disappointed to receive so late in the day such a detailed letter, which we have had insufficient time to scrutinise. We welcome the fact that it tackles the thorny issue of Scotland’s population growth and possible disadvantage to Scotland’s revenues if its population grows more slowly than in the rest of the United Kingdom. However, the population in Scotland will grow more slowly than in the rest of the United Kingdom because—and the historian, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, can correct me here—it has been doing so since the very date of the Act of Union, and it will continue to do so. That needs to be looked at and therefore we commend the Government for doing so.
I refer to paragraphs 13, 14 and 15 in the letter, which tackle this issue. Paragraph 14 is very clear that, using the Scottish Government’s own forecast, Scotland would benefit from around £4.5 billion of growth in taxes from the rest of the United Kingdom in the next decade alone if the proposal that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury put to the Deputy First Minister were accepted. Paragraph 14 also states that if the Scottish Government grow the economy then Scotland will keep those revenues. Paragraph 15 states that the proposals offer a fair deal for taxpayers in Scotland; they are fair for taxpayers in the rest of the United Kingdom; and, to use a Clydeside expression, they are built to last. If that is the case, the only thing missing is the Scottish Government’s response. Why are they not agreeing that proposition? I ask for the veil to be lifted a little today. Regarding paragraph 15, given the short notice and the cursory examination we have had of it, it is important that the Minister responds to this.
Logic dictates that we need everything to be cleared up today, and that was argued very skilfully by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. However, in this area logic is not everything. There is political reality, and the political reality is that we must encourage this process in every way possible. That is why the Labour Party has bent over backwards to be helpful to the Government over the past few months and, even today, will provide no impediment or give any hint that it will delay or obstruct the Bill. We have a fractured union. That was expressed in the report by the Select Committee on Economic Affairs, very skilfully chaired by my noble friend Lord Hollick. Therefore, we do not wish to add even one iota to any further cleavage in that area.
The UK in its present form is not an old state, but it is a state comprising ancient nations. We have to be very sensitive to that. I mentioned political reality. An article in the Daily Record last Friday by a good friend of mine, Professor Jim Gallagher, looked at the second aspect of no detriment—namely, taxpayer fairness—but the headline for the article was “sleight of Hands”, obviously a play on the name of the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. Hopefully, that gives Members an insight that there is a grievance mentality, and it is something we must be very sensitive of. In particular, as an unelected Chamber we must do everything to be positive. That is why, in moving Amendment 75 and supporting other amendments, we hope that the Minister makes progress. As the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said, if that progress is to be made before Report then we would welcome the information being put in the public domain as soon as possible. In that spirit, I beg to move.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)
I rise to speak to Amendment 75A. I was in meetings in Glasgow this morning and came in during the earlier debate on the amendment to the Motion in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean. I heard his rousing peroration; I agreed with it. Had I been in the Chamber in time, I would have wished to speak in support of it. I agree with his “sunrise” Amendment 79H, which I guess he will speak to in a moment.
Mine is a much more mundane matter. My amendment concerns borrowing limits. I find that one of the difficulties of handling the Bill in the absence of the fiscal framework is not so much dealing with what is in the Bill as understanding why things are not in it. I do not know why no provision or regime for borrowing is set out. That is why my amendment proposes the principles for such a regime. It is a key element of the Smith commission report that there should be enhanced borrowing powers for the Scottish Government, and I agree with that. The core of Smith is paragraph 95, where the fiscal framework is discussed. The most crucial element for me, apart from indexation, is the borrowing limits—how is borrowing to be done?
We discussed this in the Economic Affairs Committee, and the report of the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, brings out that the committee did not believe that anybody would believe a no bail-outs rule. The committee firmly believes that it is necessary to be seen to stand behind Scottish borrowing. Scottish borrowing will be cheaper. It is clear to all that the United Kingdom Government stand behind it. The clearest way of spelling that out is to have a provision on borrowing in the Bill. I do not argue that we should set out specific limits in the Bill—that, clearly, is a matter for subordinate legislation, as my amendment suggests. However, it seems clear that we must set out the two categories of borrowing in the Bill, that they will be subject to ceilings, and that these will be negotiated and agreed in consultation with the Scottish Government but will be set by Her Majesty’s Treasury. That seems practical and commonsensical. It makes for cheaper borrowing for Scotland, which is, of course, also cheaper for the United Kingdom, since the United Kingdom will stand behind the borrowing.
If the borrowing is properly conducted, it will be as part of the United Kingdom’s programme. It will get slots in the programme if the United Kingdom wishes to issue bonds. I have no idea how big the increases needed are and what the current limits on Scotland’s borrowing powers are, and the Smith commission does not help a great deal on that. It states that,
“to reflect the additional economic risks, including volatility of tax revenues, that the Scottish Government will have to manage when further financial responsibilities are devolved”—
I agree with that—
“Scotland’s fiscal framework should provide sufficient, additional borrowing powers to ensure budgetary stability and provide safeguards to smooth Scottish public spending in the event of economic shocks, consistent with a sustainable overall UK fiscal framework”.
That is clearly true, but it does not help to define what “sufficient” means. I do not know whether this is a matter of controversy in the current fiscal framework talks, but I think we should be told. Is it agreed that there should be ceilings on Scottish borrowing? Is it agreed that that level should be set by the United Kingdom Government in consultation with the Scots? Has that level been set; that is, has it been agreed?
This is talking about current borrowing, but I must say that I think there will be the need for a considerable increase. My view is that “sufficient” is going to be quite a lot more than the Scots now have, although it is inconceivable that it would be sufficient to deal with ensuring “budgetary stability” and providing,
“safeguards to smooth Scottish public spending in the event of economic shocks”.
Let us remember that the oil price on Scottish referendum day was $115 a barrel. That is quite an economic shock, and borrowing in the markets is not a credible way of dealing with it. However, there is a common-sense case for a large increase because of the seasonality of tax income and the need to smooth over the year. That element is clear, but there could be controversy about what the level is, in which case I think we should be told because transparency does matter.
The second kind of borrowing, also covered in my amendment, is borrowing to support capital investment consistent with the sustainable overall UK fiscal framework. I agree that that makes sense. There will be public investment which should be financed by the markets, but I do not know whether that is controversial for Her Majesty’s Treasury. I do not know whether the UK Government buy that bit of Smith, or whether there has been a discussion about how much. I do not know whether this is one of the reasons for the hold-up on the fiscal framework, and I think we should be told.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
I wonder whether the noble Lord could help me. When he talks about setting a limit on borrowing, are we starting with a new baseline or is it assumed that the existing level of debt has part of it somehow imputed to the Scottish Government, so that we then start from that baseline?
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard
I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop, knows, but I do not think that any of the rest of us knows what this means in the Smith report. Alas, the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Kelvin, is not here today to tell us.
It could be argued that there is no need to have any of this in the Bill, and I would like to hear from the Government whether that is their view. After all, they could have brought forward a Bill which said nothing about borrowing, despite the fact that it was a key part of paragraph 95 of the Smith report covering the fiscal framework. If it is their argument that there is no need to say anything about borrowing, I want to know why. As I said at the start, I believe that borrowing will be cheaper for Scotland and therefore better for the United Kingdom and Scotland if it is clear beyond doubt that the United Kingdom stands behind it. If it does, it is then clear that the United Kingdom has the right and the duty to set limits on that borrowing. I repeat that those limits should not be in the Bill. They should be set by affirmative resolution of both Houses, but the provision to require that should be in the Bill, and that is why I have tabled Amendment 75A.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 76. The points made by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, beg questions which I am sure the Minister will seek to answer in terms of the Government’s understanding of how the Scottish Parliament’s borrowing powers will operate after the passage of this Bill. The Scotland Act 2012 also contained borrowing provisions and I would be interested to know what the dynamic between them is and how they will fit together. This is an important part of the overall arrangement because specific borrowing limits might not necessarily appropriately appear in statute. It is therefore important that the Committee be made aware of what is in the Government’s mind.
The amendment I have tabled with my noble friend Lord Stephen seeks a review of the fiscal framework. We tabled it some time ago, perhaps even before the Scottish Affairs Committee came up with a similar recommendation. That was done on the basis that, by the time we reached it and could debate it, the fiscal framework would have been published. Noble Lords will remember that even at Second Reading there was much concern about the fact that we did not have any detail on the fiscal framework. There is a recognition that however much work goes into this—I do not dispute the good will that the Minister has indicated on a number of occasions—there is a possibility, I put it no stronger than that, that it might not actually be perfect. It therefore makes sense that somewhere down the line there should be a review of how the fiscal framework is operating. We say that it should be given at least four years to run, but not much longer. We also propose that this should not be done by one Parliament or the other. In fact—although it is probably quite a novelty, we should not be scared of that—it should be reviewed by a committee that involves Members of the Scottish Parliament and of both Houses of the United Kingdom Parliament. A report should be published with recommendations that are submitted to both Houses of the UK Parliament and the Scottish Parliament. Quite simply, this tries to ensure that once the fiscal framework has had an opportunity to operate, a better judgment can then be made of how well it is living up to expectations.
I do not want to repeat all the points made earlier by my noble friend Lord Stephen in the debate on the amendment to the Motion moved by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, but it is absolutely right to talk about transparency. For example, the First Minister of Scotland released a letter to the press in which she set out the Scottish Government’s view of the no detriment principle, but we do not have a clue about the United Kingdom Government’s view. Anyone who knows the workings of the Scottish Government and the Scottish National Party knows that they are very adept at this. They will get in first so that their definition of no detriment suddenly becomes the currency. The United Kingdom Government will then try to come up with a different definition, but they will be told that they are selling out, and because the Scottish Government got in first and have defined the terms of the debate, that puts everyone else on the back foot. That is why we have been arguing both privately and in the Chamber with Ministers that we need far more information and that the Government need to be much more transparent—not necessarily about the nitty-gritty, small-print detail of where they are at any particular moment but about what they understand by the no detriment principle, for example.
An amendment in this group from the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, also provides for the fiscal framework by way of a Scottish fiscal commission, modelled on the Office for Budget Responsibility. It is a very worthwhile idea, which the Scottish Parliament has been looking at. However, it falls short of the independence of the OBR that we would like to see, although the noble and learned Lord does seek to address that. Indeed, paragraph 16 of the letter we received at lunchtime today from Mr Greg Hands, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, to Pete Wishart MP, the chair of the Scottish Affairs Committee, indicates that, “All elements of the fiscal framework are being discussed with the Scottish Government, including the important recommendation of the Scottish Affairs Committee that there is a clear consensus that forecasting should be done by a body independent of Government. We agree with the conclusions of the Finance Committee of the Scottish Parliament and recommend that an enhanced Scottish Fiscal Commission be made responsible for forecasting in Scotland”. Perhaps the Minister would care to elaborate on that and how he sees it developing.
Lord McCluskey (CB)
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 79F and 79G. I have in my hands substantial notes. They were designed to enable me to present an elegant speech full of witticisms, insights and—though I did not realise I needed the permission of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth—even some political comments. I took part in 1978, from the Front Bench, then occupied by a Government of a different hue, in the first Scotland Bill. I have had a long and lasting interest in these matters. Since I prepared this speech on 13 January much has happened. The field which I hoped to plough has become a dustbowl—so many people have walked through it, including in these debates today.
I shall try to keep my comments short, in light of the well-developed arguments, but clearly the fiscal framework has not been resolved. People have alleged that that is because of the complications. I do not believe that for one second. The civil servants involved are highly skilled and competent and have resolved all the complications. The difficulty is that there is a chasm between the UK Government and the Scottish Government in relation to a simple matter: how much? How much is the UK taxpayer going to have to provide to win the approval of the Scottish Government and, secondarily—the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr—in relation to borrowing powers? That is also very important.
As has been pointed out, the Smith commission report recorded that the representatives of five Scottish Holyrood parties had agreed the devolution of certain powers. Very well. It also said, at paragraph 95:
“Barnett Formula: the block grant from the UK Government to Scotland will continue to be determined via the operation of the Barnett Formula”.
That is not entirely surprising, considering the make-up of the Smith commission. Turkeys do not vote for Christmas. The members were voting for a continuation of the Barnett formula. The report also contained what was plainly a compromise, namely the so-called no-detriment principle in two manifestations, the first of which is vaguely comprehensible and the second of which is certainly not.
The Scottish representatives on the commission—and they were all Scots—were voting in favour because the Barnett formula was plainly very favourable to Scotland and everyone was afraid of the needs test. In fact, noble Lords who have read John Swinney’s evidence to the committee of this House on the Barnett formula in 2009 will know that that committee tried to pin him down on that. He would not answer, but simply kept repeating, “We want full fiscal autonomy”.
Lord McCluskey
Yes—that was, of course, part of the purpose of the article I wrote for the Herald, which the noble Lord, Lord McFall, was good enough to refer to.
Plainly, the Scottish Government were perfectly entitled to try to secure the most favourable deal they could. It was they who created this timetable that we are being asked to stick to. The timetable was to enable them to go to the electorate in May and present themselves as having achieved a great victory. They created the timetable and we are all supposed to bow to it. I just wonder about that. In relation to the rush to get it through, it also puzzles me that John Swinney is so anxious to get his hands on extra tax powers because, when the Labour Party in Scotland proposed an extra penny on income tax, he replied, “Over my dead body”. Now, we would not wish any harm to the Deputy First Minister, but he has obviously no intention of exercising these tax powers, so what is the rush? It is all to do with the electoral process of the Scottish Government.
Even the devolution of a minor thing, such as the introduction of air passenger duty, could turn out to be worth nothing because, as was pointed out very widely at an earlier stage of the passage of the Bill, Newcastle Airport is going to suffer considerable detriment if all the Scots in the north of England flock to Prestwick, Glasgow, Edinburgh or even further north to take advantage of reduced prices. They are going to suffer a detriment and that detriment is going to have to be met by whom? By the Scottish taxpayer. In other words, the Scottish taxpayer is going to have to find the money to send to Newcastle that has been saved by whom? By the airlines. It is bizarre. The whole thing is slightly mad.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
If I remember correctly, the Chancellor of the Exchequer appeared before the Treasury Committee in January 2015 and, asked about the no-detriment principle for Newcastle and Manchester airports, said it did not apply to them. He pointed to the fact that in the previous year Newcastle Airport had increased its traffic by 12% and Manchester Airport had increased its traffic by 3%, so there was no problem whatever. So we are all in the dark yet.
Lord McCluskey
I fully accept what the noble Lord says; however I argue that there is room for argument as to whether there is a detriment to Newcastle. I just do not know. The Select Committee on Economic Affairs said, as has been quoted already by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth:
“We agree … that the second no detriment principle is unworkable. It is a recipe for future disagreement”.
The only problem is the word “future”. It is a recipe for constant disagreement, including future disagreement.
My Amendment 79F includes the provision that the new fiscal framework should be published in full. That is very important. The noble Lord, Lord McFall, mentioned that we have to face political reality: I would not challenge his judgment on that, but I add something else. We also have to face the truth—not just the truth but the whole truth—in relation to the fiscal agreement. We need to know the background and I am sure that if it is not published in full, as it should be, then various means can be found, whether in debate here, by means of questions or by freedom of information requests, to discover the full background. What were the people bargaining about? What was the cause of the delay? My guess is that the cause of the delay was what I suggested before—namely, that they could not agree on amounts of money, so the complications are not real complications but deep disagreements.
As I mentioned in the article to which the noble Lord was kind enough to refer, lying behind these discussions and the problem for the Scottish Government is the following. If the present discussions about the fiscal framework reveal, as I suspect they will, that Scotland needs a substantial subsidy from the taxpayers in the rest of the UK—or at least in the rest of Great Britain—that is a demonstration that Scotland cannot exist without such a subsidy. Therefore, the economic case for independence, which was so bizarre in the original White Paper by the Scottish Government, disappears. In other words, we now know, because of the discussions going on—although we do not know the detail—that the economic base in Scotland is such that the tax yield will be very disappointing. The Barnett formula would, of course, disappear on independence and the oil bonanza confidently predicted at the time of the referendum campaign will continue to prove to be a mirage.
As I say, events have perhaps rather overtaken this amendment but it is time that the Scottish electorate were told the whole truth about the Barnett formula. That is part of this amendment. I have read with great care, and more than once, the proceedings of the Lords committee on the Barnett formula. It was a very powerful committee and the questioning was extremely good. The witnesses who gave evidence were of the highest quality and the lesson of that has to be that if we want to move to a just and fair system, we ought to move to one which is not based on a formula that was never invented for the long term but rather as a device to get through a problem existing in the midst of an economic crisis. We should move to a system based on need in terms of welfare and other things. It is time we were told the truth about that. That is the purpose of the second part of this amendment—proposed new subsection (2).
Detriment is said to be a principle in the Smith commission report. I am afraid that I do not recognise it as a principle. The principle that underlies public expenditure should in my view be the question of need. Public expenditure in different regions should be determined largely in relation to need. It is not a straightforward matter and I need not discuss the difficulties involved in that; we are all well aware of them. Therefore, the information that I seek is to give people the truth. The truth is more important than the political reality.
I can deal briefly with the other matter relating to Amendment 79G. The noble Lord, Lord McFall, has already referred to this and I simply adopt what he said. It is vital in Scotland that we have independent scrutiny of, and reports on, economic forecasts. One of the problems with the referendum campaign was that the government White Paper had some very dodgy statistics and forecasts and the Opposition did not question it sufficiently. In a sense, the Government got away with what they said. We need an independent body. I have suggested the model of the Office for Budget Responsibility. It is not ideal but it is the best model that we have. I deal with the question of independence in the way set out in the amendment. I do not pretend that this is an ideal way to amend the Bill, but the ideas here are such that the draftsmen could with ease convert this into a workable amendment.
The Smith commission talked repeatedly about strengthening the Scottish Parliament. One of its principles was strengthening the Scottish devolution settlement and the Scottish Parliament within the UK, including parliaments’ levels of financial accountability. The commission referred repeatedly to independence. I need not quote all the relevant paragraphs. As the noble Lord, Lord McFall, pointed out, the Bill which was before the Scottish Parliament—the Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill—contains a clause which states:
“In performing its functions, the Commission is not subject to the direction or control of any member of the Scottish Government”.
However, the Bill declines to give the commission responsibility for providing independent assessments and forecasts for the Scottish economy. So if they are not made by an independent commission, who makes them? The Scottish Government make them.
Kenny Gibson was cited, but it is worth doing so again. He was the SNP chairman who expressed the unanimous view of the committee:
“We are strongly of the view that not only should the Scottish Fiscal Commission be independent, but it is vital that it is perceived to be independent. That is why we are calling for the Bill to be amended to strengthen the Commission’s role”.
Those who want to read the detail of this will find it in an article in the Scotsman of 11 February by Bill Jamieson. When the vote came, the SNP people voted down that proposal by four votes to three. Bill Jamieson’s article in the Scotsman drew attention to North Korea. I think the SNP is more like a North Korean drill squad: if a commander says, “Do a backward somersault”, the words are hardly out of his mouth before they are back on their feet, having done a backward somersault. It is a classic example of the exercise of this rigid discipline within the SNP. If we do not have an independent fiscal commission, we are in trouble.
We have had enough talk of dodgy dossiers and I have had enough of reading out my notes. I hope that I shall move these amendments in due course.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, I wish to speak briefly to my Amendment 79H, which I hope provides a way out for my noble friend on the discussions which we have had this afternoon, in so far as it suggests that the Bill, when enacted, should not commence until we have had the fiscal framework laid before both Houses of Parliament and there has been an opportunity to debate it. If I were the Minister, I would grab that because the prospect of moving another amendment proposing that we should not proceed to Report but should reconvene the Committee stage on Wednesday is something that I do not relish, as I am sure he does not either. However, if we get the fiscal framework tomorrow, there will be an opportunity for us to discuss it and therefore there will no need for this amendment. I very much hope that we will have it.
When I was Secretary of State and the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, was a very distinguished judge, he gave me a bit of a hard time on the reforms which we planned for the criminal law, which I am delighted to say the Labour Party subsequently implemented when it was in power in the Scottish Parliament. He said that I chided him about getting involved in politics—however, I would encourage him to get involved in politics. He has made a brilliant case for why we need clarity on the fiscal framework. I am prepared to support all the amendments that have been suggested because I have no idea what the Government’s position is on what the fiscal framework will be. As regards the proposal to have no detriment, it is the only time in 30 years in Parliament that I have seen witnesses reduced to laughter in giving evidence when they tried to explain what the no detriment principle actually means. Ministers cannot tell us what it means. The noble Lord, Lord Smith, cannot tell us what it means. My noble friend Lady Goldie was on the Smith commission. Perhaps she could tell us what she thinks the no detriment principle means. Without having the fiscal framework and without having a definition of that no detriment principle, it is meaningless.
However, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland hit the nail on the head when he said that the Scottish Government want to have their cake and eat it. Perhaps that is what the no-detriment principle means. Perhaps during the recess, instead of negotiating and getting agreement in time for us to discuss it, they have all been off to see Mary Berry so that they can produce more than one cake. The difficulty is that you cannot produce more than one cake. When we were in government a long time ago and, faced with an onslaught from the Labour Party, we struggled to find a way of making devolution work, I had two problems. The first was that I could not solve the West Lothian question. I could not find a way of doing English votes for English laws that would not threaten the union and create all kinds of problems about voting on income tax and the Barnett formula. My second problem was that my officials said that if we were to create a Scottish Parliament and give it these powers, it would have to be responsible for raising its own money. That would mean it would have to be funded on a fair basis, compared to the rest of the United Kingdom, which would mean having a means-based system of funding of the same kind that we use to distribute money to local government, the health service and so on. That would mean the Secretary of State’s budget being cut by £4.5 billion.
We were pretty unpopular in Scotland, thanks to the efforts of the Labour Party, which presented us as anglicising Scottish education et cetera—but we will not go there. I thought that coming up with proposals which gave Scotland the ability to pass its own laws and raise its own revenue, but which would result in a reduction in the budget of 25% or so—£4.5 million—would not be particularly popular. I think the Smith commission and others have played around with ideas which seem politically attractive but they have not actually done their homework on the impact these would have. Amidst the language of fiscal frameworks and everything else, it is all very simple: the tax base in Scotland is slightly lower than that in England. Therefore, if you are going to raise your money from the tax base in Scotland you are going to have less to spend. The Barnett formula provides 20% more per head for Scotland than England. It was 25% in my day, but there has been some narrowing. If you take a grant that is 20% higher and replace it with a tax which is 20% lower, there will be a gap. It has suddenly dawned on the Scottish nationalists that their proposal will actually result in less money for services.
It has also dawned on the nationalists that if you give welfare services and the like to Scotland, they have to administer them. They are demanding £600 million to administer welfare services. My goodness, the Labour Party wants to get rid of the bedroom tax; so do the nationalists. There are all kinds of welfare benefits that people would like to see improved. The plan is to spend £600 million on administration, instead of on the benefits. That is crazy, and for what? So that we can say that it is misery made in Scotland because we are spending it on civil servants and a bureaucracy. That is what is being proposed here.
Lord McCluskey
I hope the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, will forgive me for interrupting him. It sometimes happens the other way round. Does he appreciate that the £600 million is more than twice the amount that the Scottish Government indicated, in the White Paper, as the cost of running the whole of Scotland after independence on 24 March 2016?
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I do love the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, as a politician making these penetrating points. He is absolutely right; it is real. I am relying on what I read in the newspapers, but that is what they are asking for welfare, behind closed doors. They would rather spend the money on superannuated civil servants, just for the sake of saying, “This is being done in Scotland”. The money is the issue.
By the way, why is the Secretary of State not doing these negotiations? I was going to ring him up last week to talk to him and he was in Africa on Friday while these negotiations were going on. They are being run by the Treasury. If you are in a spending department like Scotland, the very last thing you want is the Treasury running your negotiations. Unusually, the Treasury appears to be being very generous. It is suggesting that the Barnett formula, which gives Scotland 10% of any increase in expenditure in England, should be extended to income tax and that Scotland should get, as of right, 10% of any increase of income tax that is raised in England. How is that going to go down in England? While the Scottish nationalist Government—who want to put up the top rates of tax—force all these top-rate taxpayers to move south and reduce the size of the tax base, the English are expected to send them a cheque to compensate them for the loss of revenue resulting from people moving out of Scotland. They run the benefit system for the disabled and unemployed. If they fail to get people back into jobs or to provide the support, England has to pick up the cost because those benefits are based on performance. No wonder they cannot reach agreement on no detriment or a fiscal framework. This is an argument about having a cake and eating it.
As the noble and learned Lord pointed out, if it agrees the fiscal framework, the SNP is now faced with the horrible prospect of going into a Scottish election and saying either, “We are going to have a bit more independence but we are going to have to make cuts in public services and put up taxes”, or, “We could not get these terrible people at Westminster to give Scotland a fair deal”. The truth is that there were years of lies when people said that Scotland got a bad deal out of the union and that the Barnett formula was unfair: those same critics now cling to that formula like a life-raft. All those people said that Scotland would be better off if it had more powers. By the way, that is not everyone in the Labour Party or elsewhere. All those people turned a deaf ear when people like Gordon Brown and the noble Lord, Lord Darling, who is in his place, warned that if you move to a system which is completely dependent on income tax—an idea which was, incidentally, produced by the Tories to overstep the Labour Party and the Liberals, but was not thought through—you create a situation where you are dependent on a lower tax base and there is no real electoral connection with defence and other UK-based expenditure. Throw in English votes for English laws and you are damaging the United Kingdom.
The fiscal framework, and how it is agreed, is central to whether or not we get a glue, a cement—a fair and balanced system. That is why the Bill should not become an Act and come into force until both Houses have had an opportunity to discuss it openly and fairly, with people in Scotland—who are entitled to fair dealing—seeing what the realities are and being able to make their choice. It is utterly wrong to go into an election pretending it will be all right on the night. If, at the end of the day, the SNP is able to say, “We got a fantastic deal out of Mr Greg Hands. We got extra money over and above Barnett. Vote for us again”, when what matters is long-term future stability, I do not know how long that deal will last; I do not know how it will operate. The Barnett committee, which I served on, and to which the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, has referred, suggested that, because there is a gap, there should be a 10-year transitional relief and we should move to a needs-based system of funding. I do not know whether that is being proposed or not, but it is essential that we have the opportunity to discuss it.
Why would my noble friend not agree to Amendment 79H, which prevents the commencement of the Bill until we have agreement? What possible reason could he have? The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, will say that it will be misinterpreted in Scotland and we will be presented as wrecking the Bill. I say to him that it will be proceeding in parallel with the consideration by the Scottish Parliament which is, quite rightly, insisting that it should look at the Bill in the context of the fiscal framework. What is wrong with us proceeding in parallel with it and having a proper debate on both sides of the border? I beg to move.
Lord Darling of Roulanish (Lab)
My Lords, in the earlier procedural debate we touched on many of the issues regarding whether we should consider the proposals of the fiscal commission. In some ways I am surprised that a number of your Lordships who have spoken tonight have talked almost favourably of the Barnett formula. There is something notable about the Barnett formula. One of the reasons that no one has ever touched it, from 1978 when it was first conceived until now, is that, despite its imperfections and despite the fact that many people in different parts of the UK might have said that it was unfair, it actually worked, because it was designed to pool and share resources across the United Kingdom. One of the major arguments that I and others made during the referendum campaign over the last few years is that one of the strengths of the United Kingdom is that you could make sure that when things turned against one part of the UK, because of its workings, in particular the Barnett formula, you could compensate for that. The Bill, which is soon to be an Act, will fundamentally change that because devolving to the Scottish Parliament the power to raise income tax will require a major adjustment to how Barnett has worked in the past.
One of the problems of reaching an agreement between the parties to change the constitution of our country over a four or five-day period is that it will inevitably result in unforeseen consequences as well as the foreseeable ones. One of the reasons that I want to see this fiscal framework as quickly as possible is that we are going into a completely new era. The Scottish Parliament will have more powers than most other devolved parliaments anywhere in the world. However, in many ways we are going into this new era with our eyes closed, because the debate that ought to be taking place about the consequences of what we are doing in Scotland as well as in other parts of the United Kingdom is simply not taking place. Part of the reason that it is not taking place is that the very framework on which all this will hang will not be published until possibly later this week, or possibly next week, when, as I said earlier, we will be in the equivalent of the 11th hour of the debate here.
I will touch on three areas covered by the amendments. One is income tax. I can see that in year one you can do a calculation that shows how much money will be raised by income tax in Scotland and therefore by how much the block grant is reduced. That is easy, give or take £1 million or £2 million. I pose the obvious question: what happens in five or 10 years’ time? How do you apply this no-detriment rule, or try to work out to whose credit it is or whose fault it is that the tax take was not quite what was expected, because Scotland collected either more or less? Any idea, such as that suggested in the White Paper published last year by the previous Government, that somehow you could do this mechanistically and it would not be subject to any politics or anything nasty like that is just for the birds. If we are not careful, what we produce will provide fodder for all those who want to feed off grievances and find grudges for years to come. As I said earlier, I struggle to see how that is going to be resolved.
The noble Lord who will reply for the Government will probably know the answer to this because presumably he has seen the fiscal document. The rest of us have not seen it. This is pretty fundamental. If you are going to say, as we have agreed, that the Scottish Parliament should have all the money that it raises by income tax and there is a consequence on the ground, what is that consequence?
I make one further point. I do not know the ins and outs of this argument about indexation for ageing. I have every sympathy with concerns about the fact that Scotland’s population is ageing faster. Being a supporter of the United Kingdom, I believe that we should pool and share resources. If the Scottish population is ageing more quickly than that of the rest of the UK, the whole point of the United Kingdom is that you can compensate for that. I hope the present Conservative Government are not taking the view that they will devolve and Scotland can live with the consequences.
If you had complete independence, which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, said would have happened in about three weeks’ time if we believed in the nationalist timetable, then we should be in a situation where Scotland was cut off from the rest of the UK and consequences would follow. However, we have not left the United Kingdom. That is why it is important that we continue to maintain the principle that we pool and share resources, but we should be clear as to the basis on which that is done.
This brings me to the point on borrowing on which the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, touched. I agree with him that we need to be clear about under what circumstances and in what amount the Scottish Parliament can borrow. There is a further point. Borrowing to invest is well understood. That is not problematic. The Scottish Government have the power to do that at the moment if they want to. It is borrowing to fund a shortfall in current expenditure that will cause a problem. There is nothing wrong with the Government borrowing when there is an economic downturn, as I know. The present Government know that as well, since they have had to do exactly the same thing. However, suppose the situation was that the Scottish Government had the power to borrow and, as now, there was a shock to the oil price system. If you believe the shock to be temporary—if it is only going last for a year—as the nationalists maintain when you ask them why oil is not, as they told us it would be in the White Paper, $113 a barrel but around $30 or $40 a barrel, it makes perfect economic sense to borrow to make up that shortfall. That is what you would do. However, if it is a structural change—and many people believe that it is a structural change that will go on for maybe five or 10 years—does borrowing then make sense? Under what conditions could the Scottish Government continue to borrow to cover that shortfall as opposed to making other more difficult decisions, such as putting up taxes or cutting spending?
This also begs the question that the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, raised, as to on whose account do you borrow? Are you borrowing on your own account? With the best will in the world, a new Scottish Government are bound to start with a lesser credit rating than the UK simply because they are a new kid on the block and have no track record. Again, being in favour of the United Kingdom I am quite happy that borrowing ought to be done on a UK basis, but if that is to be the case the consequences need to be spelled out. None of these things can be left in the hope that it will all work out okay on the night.
The White Paper published last year assumed that there was good will. You have to bear in mind here that the Scottish National Party exists to make Scotland independent. That is what it is for. That is what it is looking at all the time. Therefore, if you have something that is opaque, where there will inevitably be difficulties, you are simply storing up problems—I should like to say for the future, but no, it is not for the future; they will be there from day one.
Exactly the same points are being made on welfare. As I said during the referendum, I have never understood the argument that Scottish taxpayers, of whom I am one, would want to pay money to people to administer a benefit system, a lot of which is, ironically, being administered in Scotland for the rest of the United Kingdom and providing useful employment. Why do I want to pay more for someone to do that or, for that matter, to collect my taxes?
Leaving aside the collection cost, if you take the actual expenditure on mainstream benefits, a lot of benefits have been devolved to the Scottish Government and that is absolutely fine. However, again, it is unclear to me who in five or 10 years’ time would bear the cost if, for example, the policies north and south of the border were different. It is entirely acceptable that they should be different. We are bound to have, as we do now, Governments of different political complexions. However, if, for example, you have an ageing population, all other things being equal, your disability benefits will start to go up. Is that okay? Is that built into the settlement or will taxpayers in other parts of the United Kingdom have something to say about it? I am sure these problems are resolvable, although I note that Professor Bell of Stirling University said recently that no one else in the world has done this.
As an aside, my own preference, having got to the stage that we have, is that we should look at countries such as Canada—big countries that have a federal settlement in many senses but have provinces with different powers. One of the advantages is that when you pay your income tax you can see that some of your tax is going to pay for things such as health and education, but you pay tax to the federal Government for things such as pensions or defence and so on. It is then easier for other things to slot into place—borrowing to fund various activities and so on. We have not looked at that.
It is often said that the British are good at compromising, but what we have here is not devolution being done to any overall template—it is being done on the hoof. When you do things on the hoof, sooner or later you trip up. As I said earlier, this is not just a matter between one political party and another. If this fiscal framework had been published, others from outside could have looked at it and said, “There is a better way of doing this”, or, “Have you thought of the consequences of that?”. Instead, the public north and south of the border have been kept largely in the dark. That is simply going to cause considerable difficulties.
Other issues have been raised as well, such as bailouts and the question of no detriment, which we will need to come to. Equally, the White Paper published last year had examples of what would happen if the UK Government were to raise or decrease expenditure. What would the consequences be? Could you have a situation where more taxes are being paid in one part of the United Kingdom to fund expenditure somewhere else? Again, these are problems to which I have not yet seen the answers.
I heard people say in the earlier exchanges that having an EU referendum campaign lasting some four months was an awfully long time. Having lived through a referendum campaign that lasted some two and a half years, frankly, I would have killed for four months. I fully accept the right of the Scottish National Party to campaign for independence but what I bear in mind is that the majority of people in Scotland were clear that they wanted to stay as part of the United Kingdom. What worries me about this, and until I have seen the fiscal framework I cannot pass a final judgment on it, is that rather than resolving the matter and saying, “That is the settled will of the Scottish people”, we have put something in place here that will lead to opacity, confusion and eventually grievance. That is not a way to get a secure settlement. Perhaps the Minister will have words that reassure us on all these points. So far I have not heard them but I look forward with great interest to what he has to say.
Lord McCluskey
The noble Lord said that the Barnett formula works. I doubt that anyone would contradict that. It works, and does so from the point of view of the Treasury for the reasons given: it is simple and clear, and so on. First, does the noble Lord suggest that it works fairly throughout the United Kingdom? Secondly, because of the future governed by this Bill, does he support subsection (2) of the new clause that I propose in Amendment 79F? It calls for the Secretary of State to publish,
“a full description of any agreement whatsoever reached between the … Governments relating to the future of the Barnett Formula or its application, amendment or replacement in the future”.
We need to know not whether it worked in the past but whether it worked fairly and how it will work in the future. Does he support that amendment?
Lord Darling of Roulanish
In relation to the Barnett formula, I chose my words carefully. I said that it worked; I did not go on to say “terribly well” or “extremely well” or “without any complaint”. If you look at the north-west of England, there is a legitimate complaint there that Barnett treats it the same as it does the south-east of England, when their economies are clearly very different. I know that successive Chancellors looked at the Barnett formula. I looked at it in the halcyon period of the three weeks between taking office and discovering that Northern Rock was on the horizon, which presented me with rather more pressing problems that I had to deal with. But I can see why, it having been there for so long, no one has touched it. I am sure that others in this House will know that the late Joel Barnett often said that he never intended it to last. It was a fix but it worked. However, where I agree with the noble and learned Lord—I will confess to not having studied his proposed new subsection (2) in the detail I perhaps should have done—is that if we are having a new system, we really need to know how it works. What we do not want is what happened in the aftermath of the Smith commission, when everybody signed up to it and the next day it was denounced. That will not work. If we have something that does not work, let us find out now rather than coming to that awful realisation over several months and years to come.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
I support Amendment 76 but I have sympathy with all these amendments. I think the noble Lord, Lord Darling, has just touched on the value of a federal system, which I suspect the UK will have to come up with if it is to find a stable solution. In the context of Canada, where I spent some time last summer, I was well aware that for years the Albertans complained that they were subsidising Quebec. But right now the Albertans are grateful to have the support of Ontario, as the oil price has collapsed. That is the benefit of being part of a union with the ability to move fiscal transfers around, as the shocks hit different parts of the economy. I suspect that the majority of people in Scotland voted to stay in the United Kingdom because their heads told them that was the reality.
Apart from simple practice, the other issue with the Barnett formula is that, as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said, as a formula it has narrowed the gap between Scotland and the rest of the UK. That is why while it was 25% when he was Secretary of State, it is now 20%. When people talk about the Barnett formula, they are not really talking about that but about the historical difference in spending in Scotland, which predates the formula and has arrived for a variety of reasons. Again, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, mentioned the difference in per capita spending but I am sure he would recognise that the whole point of a needs-based formula, if that is what we move to, is that it is not based simply on per capita spending but on needs. We should reflect on the fact that Scotland has 40% of the land area of Great Britain and less than 10% of the population so, for example, the unit costs of delivering services such as small schools to remote islands and highlands are inevitably higher. Any formula must at least acknowledge that.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
It might be worth having a look at the committee report that was done on the Barnett formula, which includes a full analysis of these issues. What is traditionally said about Scotland’s broad geography does not actually justify it. The conclusion was actually that Wales gets a rubbish deal, while Scotland is oversupported. But of course, that cannot be changed overnight and it therefore said that we should move towards a transitional system and that funding should be based on needs, in the same way as the Scotland Office—and later the Scottish Parliament—has distributed money to local government, the health service and the rest.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie
I certainly do not repudiate that point, but it is still worth acknowledging the fact because it is often presented in a glib way—by saying that there are not legitimate reasons why some expenditure in Scotland is significantly higher. I have represented a rural constituency and seen the rural schools which people want to keep open, for example. The unit costs for those are much higher than for urban schools, and such examples need to be taken into account.
We are all frustrated by the fact that we are asked to enact the Bill without the fiscal framework being in place. In the earlier debate the noble Lord, Lord Hain, made the point that some 40% of the UK’s wealth is concentrated in the south-east. In the run-up to the referendum, when the oil price was very high, the SNP was keen to say how much oil had sustained the United Kingdom, but it conveniently forgot the extent to which the United Kingdom had had to bail out the Royal Bank of Scotland and the Bank of Scotland, which an independent Scotland simply could not have done. The SNP’s response was that they were of course no longer Scottish banks, but it would have found some difficulty in arguing that case, had Scotland been independent and those banks been headquartered within their system. There are inequalities of argument in that context.
There is another point that needs to be made absolutely clear. If, in future, taxes fund a significant proportion of what was previously provided by the block grant, and if there is a divergence and different circumstances arise, the reality is that a Scottish Government can do only one of two things: put up taxes or cut services. In fact, they could do both those things. It is right that the people of Scotland should recognise that if they vote for independence, they will find it difficult to maintain what they have at the moment, never mind what the Scottish nationalists promise them, on the basis of the current tax-and-spend regime, and I suspect that that is why the majority voted no. The implications of that are significant.
There is one argument that I find really confusing. I am in favour of the European Union and of the United Kingdom, which I find a very consistent argument, and I am puzzled by people who are in favour of the European Union and against the United Kingdom, or vice versa. At least I and my party have a fairly consistent view on these things: they both involve compromise and negotiation, and both require some form of treaty agreement or contract to settle them. The Minister has to acknowledge that we are getting very close to voting through an Act of Parliament literally in the dark—one that has serious implications for the people of Scotland and is not being properly debated in Scotland. I completely understand the position taken by Labour Front-Benchers—I would not have supported the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, for the same reason—but we are in danger of allowing the argument to be run by one side; we need to hear a balanced argument. We need to hear generosity from the United Kingdom, because the people of Scotland have said that they want to be part of the United Kingdom. I think the UK will say to the people of Scotland, “We want you to stay; we want to find a settlement that works for both of us”. It is not good enough simply to say, “You are going to get that tax. It is up to you what you do with it. If it falls short, that is your problem”. That is why I support Amendment 76, and the other amendments in the group have a similar intention. Never mind no detriment: we have to recognise that we need a basic, practical, working arrangement that says, if there is clearly an unsustainable disadvantage to the people of Scotland from a formula that has been openly and honestly agreed, we are prepared to revisit it. Amendment 76 gives a framework for doing that.
It is essential that the Minister address two issues. First, he must explain how we can enact this legislation without having formally acknowledged the formula written in both Houses of Parliament and the Scottish Parliament. Secondly, and more to the point, if we are not able to deal with the matter here and these amendments are not accepted, that leaves the Scottish Parliament as the only arbiter of whether this goes ahead. We all know that it is likely to say, “We couldn’t get a deal so you have to vote for us, because nobody else will give you a decent deal”. However, the truth is that it was offered a pretty generous deal that would have protected Scotland’s position in the United Kingdom and given it more powers and control, which it rejected for the simple reason that it was terrified of the responsibility of having to take these issues up with the people of Scotland and explain the reality of the resources it had and how it was going to balance them out. That is the everyday debate of politics everywhere—except, at the moment, Scotland. We are debating this issue in a vacuum, without facing the fundamental reality that Scotland benefits from being part of the United Kingdom. Scotland wants more control over its own affairs. We have an agreement in principle to deliver that, but we do not have a fiscal framework. Whatever framework is introduced, we need to make sure that we have a mechanism for reviewing it genuinely to reassure the people of Scotland and ensure that it will be fairly and independently assessed, and that if there is a clearly unacceptable and unsustainable disadvantage, as determined by independent commissioners, action will be taken to put that right. If we can get that right, we can win the argument.
Lord Turnbull (CB)
My Lords, I support Amendment 75A moved by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, on debt and borrowing. The amendment is founded on the principle that the UK is a union, constitutionally and financially. There is a common currency, single monetary policy, single exchange rate and a banking union. We have some banks that pretend their headquarters are in Scotland, but they are not really. The public finances of Scotland and the rest of the UK are inextricably intertwined. A large part of public services has been financed—even under the new arrangements, when they are unveiled—by grants from the UK or assignment of revenues. Departments of Her Majesty’s Government have large budgets that they spend directly in Scotland.
The SNP may not like the fact that the union exists, but it does, and certain consequences follow. When the Economic Affairs Committee took evidence on post-referendum arrangements, there was little appetite by then for full fiscal autonomy. It was always an illusion, but it was thoroughly punctured by the gaps in the oil price. Some witnesses argued that, in addition to sensible arrangements to deal with short-term fluctuations, Scotland could operate a separate borrowing regime, financed by borrowing in its own name. In effect, that would be policed by financial markets and underpinned by a no bail-out rule. As noble Lords have mentioned, debt issued by the Scottish Government would have its own credit rating with its own risk assessment, and if debt issuance was thought to be excessive its cost would rise and the Scottish Government would be forced to respond. However, most witnesses did not believe this model, given the extent to which the two economies are interlinked, and no one really thought that a no bail-out clause was plausible. Most notably, the noble Lord, Lord Darling, told the Committee that the eurozone has a no bail-out rule that we can see “works very well”. I think he was being ironic, but I cannot be absolutely sure. He thought that a no bail-out rule would be,
“unnecessary and downright provocative and actually sound very patronising … I am part of the UK as well; do not tell me I cannot be bailed out by a country that I happen to be a citizen of”.
That was strongly endorsed by the Committee.
During the course of the referendum, there was some loose talk that said, in effect, “Vote for us and we will put an end to austerity”, but even now in Holyrood there is a recognition that although borrowing policy does not have to be identical to that of the UK, it nevertheless has to be consistent with it and supportive of policy for the UK as a whole. Two things follow from that. First, the amount of borrowing year by year cannot be such as to undermine the Government’s overall borrowing objective. Secondly, the stock of debt, relative to some measure of capacity to repay, cannot be such as to raise the spectre that the UK Government might have to intervene. As the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, stated, this amendment does not seek to specify what those various ratios should be. They should rightly be in secondary legislation. Why, then, is the amendment needed? It is needed to entrench the principle that Scottish fiscal and debt policy cannot be decided unilaterally in Scotland. It has to be related to the policy of the UK as a whole and the limits must be set by the Treasury, after consulting the Scottish Government, and should be approved by Parliament. In that way, the amendment fills one of the holes in the Bill, although many are left.
The noble Lord, Lord McFall, mentioned an article, “Sleight of Hand”, by Jim Gallagher, who, as many noble Lords will know, is a former Scottish civil servant and is now a professor. However, the noble Lord did not read the last paragraph:
“So I wonder if this is less about fiscal formulae and more about nationalist politics. It’s becoming pretty clear that the SNP won’t promise another referendum after the next Holyrood election. They think they’d lose. But without it they’ll have nothing to talk about. So maybe their aim is to reject the fiscal framework, whatever is offered and so derail the new powers in the Scotland Bill. Then they can spend the next five years arguing about power, not exercising it”.
Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)
My Lords, I feel obliged to intervene for Wales for a moment, because there is a very solid Welsh dimension in this. I also feel that I can do so because I was married for 39 years to a lass from West Lothian and I have always known the answer to the question—which is, “Yes, of course, dear”. The point that really concerns me is that a deal is being done in secret in Scotland, involving the fiscal framework, which will have implications in Wales. As the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said, the Welsh deal on the Barnett formula is rubbish. Every political party in Wales recognises that. The Welsh Labour Government refuse to exercise their tax-raising powers until that formula, or some formula, is revised. I fear that this secret formula or framework that is being arrived at in Scotland will be used as a precedent in Wales when we come to deal with tax-raising powers under the draft Wales Bill, and that we will be stuck with the same sort of system, arrangements and mechanisms as there are in Scotland—but it will be entirely different.
Therefore, I urge Ministers, as my noble friends have done, to allow transparency, so that we may actually have some input. Many speakers in this debate have said that it is unfair on other parts of the United Kingdom. Certainly, it may very well be unfair on Wales: the impact of this fiscal framework in Scotland could devastate Welsh funding for the future. I hope that your Lordships will excuse me for putting in a Welsh voice.
The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)
My Lords, I support Amendments 76 and 79G. Like many other noble Lords, I have found much that is attractive in many amendments in this debate, but I am confining my remarks to those two. I note that all the amendments and speeches have been wholly consistent with the Smith commission report.
I support Amendment 76 totally, of course, but I fear that it is something that is needed more than once; in fact, I would repeat it every five years. I see it as part of what, in commercial terms, one would call a feedback loop, which I think one needs to set up for every single devolved Administration. It could be well-structured and formal and allow for a frank examination of every aspect of devolution between Westminster and those devolved Administrations. If we do not set up a feedback loop now, as sure as eggs are eggs, when things go wrong we will set one up in the future. I feel strongly, and I think this will come back in further debates, that a feedback loop is required.
Secondly, I was much attracted by the thinking behind Amendment 79G. However, I would not in fact set up a Scottish fiscal commission; rather, I would expand the OBR to include this. As we expand the number of devolved deals, the problem is that we could potentially end up with a massive number of these commissions, all of which would essentially be umpires and all of which, one assumes, would umpire according to slightly different rules. There would be a great advantage to having one umpire in the UK—it has been pleasing to read today in the press how the OBR has resisted political interference in the recent past—which used one set of rules to examine figures and to report generally to the United Kingdom.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, I add support to my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace of Tankerness’s amendment in this regard. It was Baldwin who said that democracy was government by explanation but, as we discussed in the previous debate, there has not been much explanation of the development of the fiscal agreement. We need to ensure that when it comes to two broadly competing interests—the Scottish Government and the UK Treasury—there are mechanisms for the agreements and their operation to be reviewed in future.
I was a member of the finance committee in Holyrood for five years when it did not have the role of scrutinising the revenue powers of the Scottish Parliament, and I think it will be a positive thing for it to have those powers. In many regards, though, the processes that exist in Holyrood are not fit for the purpose of the powers that are coming its way. The operation of this power, especially and most importantly in the first five years of operation, will therefore be critical. That is why the amendment is of value.
Of course, I agree with the noble Earl about the benefit of building longer-term structures; my party has proposed one potential option for that, which is what the Canadians would recognise as a federal fiscal commission. When there has been a protracted process of discussions between the Scottish Government and the Treasury, not wholly because of a difference in fiscal policy or a different approach to budgetary discipline but because of a political imperative, that is not going to disappear once agreement has been reached. Indeed, it may be compounded once it is in operation, given the difficult situations that may arise.
This afternoon we have all been reading at pace from the Chief Secretary’s letter, and I think we have all registered with the Minister our complaint that we should not be having to do that as well as discussing the relevant legislation. However, the recommendation to take forward the Scottish Fiscal Commission into a more independent body is worth while, and I would be interested to hear what the Scottish Government’s position is. The problem is that it has already been legislated for in Holyrood, and we will be asking the Scottish Parliament to go back on what it has just agreed to establish a structure that this Parliament will perhaps argue is not fit for purpose. It makes for an interesting dynamic that the SNP chair of the Scottish Affairs Select Committee is proposing this to the SNP chair of the Holyrood committee, which has a different view on this, but that is for them to resolve and we will be interested in their conclusion. Ultimately, as has been referred to before, the experience of the referendum is that the people are asked to believe figures and facts that are put forward by one Government and those that are put forward by a competing one. That puts civil society and the public in an invidious position. If we are locking this into a long-term approach, that does not bode well for the future.
My final comment is that I know it has been hard to separate the politics from the constitutional practice in this. It has been very hard for those who argue for independence, because this is the final aspect of their arguments. They have lost their argument through the people of Scotland voting for Scotland to stay part of the UK, and in many respects they have lost the argument for full fiscal autonomy. The only argument that is left on the table is the long-term form of devo-plus that we have with this Bill. It is quite hard for those who are passionately in favour of independence to recognise that there are structures that could be long-term and stable and could work for the union, because if they accept it then they are undermining their own fundamental approach, so we are asking them to do something that is exceptionally hard for them. So I am not surprised that, to some extent, there has been this to-and-fro.
However, do we want that to be a permanent feature of our constitution and of the relationship with the Scottish Parliament, of which taxpayers on both sides of the border will be the victim? In common with all colleagues in this House who are resident in Scotland, I have received my letter from the Inland Revenue saying that we are now designated Scottish taxpayers and that this is now a real process that is under way. If we want to move away from the situation where the two blocs perpetuate this interest, then we need a regular review mechanism, combined with joint working between the Parliaments, not the Governments—the critical part of my noble and learned friend’s amendment. In addition, by taking out the only bodies that are responsible for making the forecasts for revenue and population growth being the two respective Governments, we will be locking in the kind of difficulties that we have been seeing over the past nine months. I hope that the House endorses my noble and learned friend’s amendment.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, we have had a detailed debate with many authoritative contributions, and I welcome the contributions from all parts of the House. We have covered a lot of ground. I will try to do justice to all the issues that have been raised. No detriment, block grant indexation, borrowing, review, scrutiny, commencement—there is a plethora of them, and I hope that the House will bear with me as I try to cover each one. I shall pick up on the points that individual Peers have made on each of those issues.
To start off, I shall remind us of what we are trying to achieve here. We are trying to rebalance the devolution settlement and to give the Scottish Parliament greater responsibility for raising more of what it spends. Currently that is around 10% of the Scottish budget and, once the Bill is in operation, it will be over 50%. That will lead to a Scottish Parliament that is more financially accountable to the people who elect it. The Scottish Government should be able to reap the rewards, and bear the risks and costs, of the policy choices that they make. That is something that the UK Government think is important, and something that John Swinney, the Deputy First Minister of the Scottish Government, has publicly accepted. The noble Lord, Lord McFall, talked about grievance politics. This is an opportunity to move Scottish politics on from the familiar blame game.
Why does the fiscal framework matter? A lot of noble Lords have said that this is central. I certainly agree with the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee, which said:
“The fiscal framework will be central to future devolution arrangements”.
It is the fiscal framework that provides the financial tools and controls to support the operation of the Scottish Government’s new powers. As with the Smith agreement as a whole, this is about striking the right balance: giving the flexibility to the Scottish Government to take their own decisions, while retaining those fundamental UK strengths. That is what the people in Scotland voted for in September 2014 by a clear and decisive majority. Therefore, it is our duty to deliver a Scottish fiscal framework that is sustainable and consistent, as the Smith agreement says, with the overall UK fiscal framework.
I am sure that noble Lords are on the edge of their seats because we have talked a lot about my next topic: the no-detriment principles. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, said that he had no idea of what the UK Government’s view was of no detriment. Other Peers—the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, and my noble friend Lord Forsyth—raised the no-detriment principles. The House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee highlights the importance of principles, and the Smith agreement sets out a range of principles against which the fiscal framework must deliver. I would be the first to recognise that these principles set out in the Smith agreement are high level, and it is for the two Governments to agree on how to apply them in practice. Central to the negotiations that have been taking place is how the Scottish block grant adjusts to account for new tax and welfare powers and meets these no-detriment principles.
The first no-detriment principle is that the Scottish Government and the UK Government budgets should be no larger or smaller simply as a result of the initial transfer of tax and spending powers. As the noble Lord, Lord Darling, said, in many ways this is a very straightforward calculation. We have the data, use actual figures for the final year prior to devolution and apply whatever indexation method is finally chosen.
The second no-detriment principle is that there should be no detriment as a result of Scottish Government and UK Government policy decisions post-devolution. There are two legs to this no-detriment principle. The first is that decisions by one Government that directly affect the revenues or spending of the other should be compensated. What does that mean in practice? It means direct effects: so if the UK Government were to increase the personal allowance, that would obviously have an impact on the tax revenues of the Scottish Government that was totally outwith their control. Looking at it in another perspective, if the Scottish Government used their welfare powers in a way that automatically and in a direct way affected benefit passporting in the reserved welfare system, that would be a direct effect. However, the principle is explicitly not to compensate the Scottish Government for the economic consequences of the policy choices that they make: so, for example, if higher tax rates lead to an increase in net migration from Scotland, that would be a consequence of the decisions that the Scottish Government had taken.
The Smith report is very clear about economic responsibility, saying that,
“the revised funding framework should result in the devolved Scottish budget benefiting in full from policy decisions by the Scottish Government—”
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
If there was migration from Scotland as a result of higher tax rates, clearly the population ratio would change, and we are being told that there was much discussion around the concept of per capita. How would the United Kingdom Government and the Scottish Government agree on how many of those who have left Scotland have left as a result of higher taxation as opposed to having to look after elderly parents?
Lord Dunlop
As I was saying, that is an indirect, or behavioural effect. It is not a direct effect: that is the point that I was making. What the adjustment mechanism takes into account is these direct effects. They are things that can actually be calculated, but I will come on to talk about behavioural or spillover effects, which is what I think the noble and learned Lord is talking about.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Before my noble friend does that, will he actually answer the question? It was: how do you tell which is a direct effect and which is an indirect effect?
Lord Dunlop
One is a direct consequence of a policy decision, so in the example I gave of personal allowances, that is a direct consequence of a policy decision that is outwith the control of the other Government. It is not the behavioural or indirect effect, which is about how people react to a decision that is taken. That is the distinction that we are making.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I am most grateful to my noble friend. May we just take the example that he gave—that was raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace—of people leaving Scotland? If we have an SNP Government who decide to put the top rate of tax up to 60% and a lot of the WILLIEs and other people decide, “We are going to move south” and they tell their neighbours, “Actually we are moving south because we want to be closer to our children”, how will the Government know how much of the tax base has been reduced as a result of the Scottish Government putting up tax and how much as a result of domestic or other normal movement? There is no way that you can tell that effect. Why would it be appropriate to compensate in those circumstances?
Lord Dunlop
My noble friend misunderstands what I am saying. I am not necessarily saying that those should be compensated for. In the evidence that the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave to the Treasury Select Committee, he said:
“My personal view is that tax competition is something that we should allow”.
He is effectively saying that if there are different tax rates north and south of the border, that is something that we should not automatically try to compensate for. Another example relates to childcare. We all remember that at the time of the independence referendum White Paper, central to the retail offer being made by the SNP was its childcare policy. It was a matter of complaint that, were that policy to be successful and increase income tax revenues, the benefit of that would actually flow to the Treasury and not to the Scottish Government. Under the Smith package, if such a policy succeeded in increasing participation by women in the labour market, the benefits of that would flow to the Scottish Government.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
Teasing this out, may I give an example that is hypothetical in one sense, because it is historic? During the 1990s, the Conservative Government privatised the water industry in England, and, I think, in Wales. Clearly, the decision was taken by the then Conservative Government not to do so in Scotland. However, after that privatisation had taken place, there were no further consequentials under the Barnett formula for Scotland. The money had to be found to fund the water industry in Scotland in public hands. If the arrangements that we are now talking about had been in place then, and the UK Government had decided to take the water sector into private ownership in England and Wales, which would have led to a decrease in the funding for Scotland, would that have been a detriment for which the Scottish Parliament would have had to be compensated?
Lord Dunlop
No, I do not believe that that would be a detriment in the sense that the UK Government would have to compensate the Scottish Government. The situation would apply; the Barnett formula would apply; the equivalent departmental spending from England would flow through to Scotland. I do not think that this package changes that at all. Although the ownership structure north and south of the border is different, the cost of this on both sides of the border is met in water bills.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
The Smith commission report says in paragraph 4a:
“Where either the UK or the Scottish Governments makes policy decisions that affect the tax receipts or expenditure of the other, the decision-making government will either reimburse the other if there is an additional cost, or receive a transfer from the other if there is a saving. There should be a shared understanding of the evidence to support any adjustments”.
On my understanding of what these words mean, with the precise example of the water industry, which I have repeatedly asked about in the past, how can my noble friend say what he has just said from the Dispatch Box when the words have a different meaning? Are we to understand that the Government are departing from the meaning of the no-detriment principle as set out there?
Lord Dunlop
No; we are not departing from the Smith agreement at all. It is the function of the negotiations. As I say, these are high-level principles, and the two Governments have to work out how these principles are applied in practice. That is what we are doing. The Barnett formula will continue to operate and determine departmental spending and how that flows through in Barnett consequentials. That will not change.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
The noble Lord mentioned the issue of WILLIEs—people who work in London but live in Edinburgh. If the Scottish Parliament put up the rate of tax and these individuals then decide to pay themselves in dividends, that would be tax competition, and therefore the Scottish Government would not be compensated. Am I correct?
Lord Dunlop
As I said, as regards tax competition, that would not be counted for in terms of compensation. I hope that I have made that clear.
Lord McCluskey
May I ask about a point on the language used by the Minister? He drew a distinction between direct and indirect detriment but I look in vain in the Smith commission report for these adjectives. I know that my noble and learned friend has a copy here, as do I. What is the basis for the Minister drawing a distinction between direct and indirect detriment?
Lord Dunlop
As I said, the Smith agreement is a set of high-level principles. The negotiations are about how the two Governments apply those principles in practice. When, as I hope, the fiscal framework is agreed shortly, the noble and learned Lord will see how the two Governments have reached an agreement as to how these principles will apply in practice. That is what the discussions that have been going on for the past months have been all about.
Lord McCluskey
Is that expression “high-level principle” a euphemism for low-level politics?
Lord Dunlop
No; it is the responsibility of the two Governments to work out this package of powers and how the fiscal framework will work in practice, which is what we are doing.
Lord Purvis of Tweed
I am anxious to make time before the Minister moves on from this specific aspect of indirect detriment—I know that he will come on to behavioural aspects soon. Will there be one body which will define what these indirect impacts are, with choices north and south of the border, or will we see a perpetual process of two Governments having disputes about how they will define what the indirect consequences are of policy choices north and south of the border?
Lord Dunlop
No; we will not see disputes, because that is the process we are involved in at the moment, which is to reach an agreement on how all these aspects operate. That is what we are doing. When I say that I am optimistic that we will reach an agreement, that is on the basis of the discussions we have had so far and the issues that remain outstanding.
I will move on to the second leg of the second no-detriment principle, which is to do with taxpayer fairness. Changes in devolved Scottish taxes—for example, income tax—should affect public spending only in Scotland, and vice versa for equivalent taxes in the rest of the UK. What does that mean in practice? It means that taxpayers in Newcastle and Liverpool will not fund even higher levels of public services in Scotland not available to them. The noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, touched on some of these issues in his recent Herald article, which has already been referred to. The other aspect is that Scotland does not inadvertently gain a double benefit, via Barnett consequentials and a fixed proportion of any growth in tax revenues from the rest of the UK.
In conclusion, therefore, in this part of what I intend to say, some block grant adjustment mechanisms work better against different principles, and the UK Government’s approach is to find a mechanism that performs well against all of them. Each principle is not perfectly met in every respect, which is what we are trying to deal with in the negotiations that are going on at the moment.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard
Has the Minister looked at that bit of the Economic Affairs Committee report, where the committee comes to the view that it is easy to understand the first no-detriment principle at the outset—the ab initio principle—but that the attempt to legislate for or to operate a no-detriment principle down the years is a will-o’-the-wisp: it cannot work? If this is what is holding up the fiscal framework, call it off—it will not work. You cannot distinguish over time whether the tax take went down because of the tax measure, a change in the Scottish economy or in the world economy, or in the oil price, so you have a recipe for a continued debate, with the argument going round every time if you are trying to say that there must be no detriment down the years. Abandon it—it will not work. The Smith commission did not say how it would work, and I do not for a moment believe that it thought it would work. It is a lovely principle to get people to agree and then they can go home, but we are doing something different now.
Lord Dunlop
We very much recognise what that report says, which is that if you interpret the no-detriment principle as applying absolutely literally to all effects, whether behavioural or indirect, it is very difficult to arrive at a single solution. However, these are the issues that are being addressed in the negotiations, and when the framework agreement is published the noble Lord will see how the two Governments have addressed those issues.
On the block grant indexation mechanism, Smith says that,
“future growth in the reduction to the block grant should be indexed appropriately”.
There has been much talk about the need to avoid endless wrangling. We are therefore trying to make this process as mechanical as possible. The issue is how much of the growth in relevant taxes in the rest of the UK will benefit Scotland post-devolution.
With new powers come new responsibilities, and, as has already been mentioned this evening, the debate is around appropriate allocation of responsibilities between the UK and Scottish Governments and what is a fair division. The UK Government continue to manage UK-wide risks and the Scottish Government manage marginal Scotland-specific risks. To give an example, if there is a UK-wide recession, there will be a smaller block grant deduction to shield Scotland from UK-wide impacts because the growth in UK taxes will be lower. We have achieved agreement before with the Scottish Government for the Scottish rate of income tax, which is indexed against movements in corresponding UK Government tax.
The key issue, which has been raised in the debate by the noble Lord, Lord McFall, and other noble Lords, is how population change is managed. The UK Government will continue to manage the impact of UK-wide population change in all devolved areas. We are looking for the Scottish Government to manage marginal Scotland-specific changes. The Scottish Government already manage these changes within Barnett, and John Swinney, when he appeared before the Scottish Parliament Finance Committee last summer, accepted this.
The UK Government’s proposal, which is contained in the Chief Secretary’s letter, addresses this population concern and we are prepared to share the risk. The model we have tabled recognises that Scotland’s share of income tax revenue is less than its population share and it ensures that, like Barnett, the tax adjustment takes account of changes in Scotland’s population. So if Scotland’s population share falls then so will the tax deduction.
However, let me be clear: we cannot agree something where the Scottish Government are not accepting their fair share of population risk. Why? If it is right that Scotland retains all the growth in its own tax revenues, then it is difficult to explain as fair that a fixed proportion of growth in the rest of the UK’s own devolved tax revenues is added to the Scottish budget irrespective of how good or bad are the policy choices of the Scottish Government and the relative performance of the Scottish economy as a result.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
This is the point I was trying to get at before. The Minister has just said it; he may correct me, and I apologise as it is complex. He said that, if the Scottish population falls and is a lower proportionate share of the population, there would be a lower tax deduction. But if that population has fallen because of the tax policies of the Scottish Government, why should there be a lower tax reduction?
Lord Dunlop
I think we are reflecting at the outset that Scotland produces a lower proportion of total UK income tax. We are applying that comparability factor from the outset. The Scottish Government will still bear population risk. If there is deviation from that initial situation—whether it is a result of their policy choices—that is how they would bear the population risk.
Lord Darling of Roulanish
Can the Minister explain another point he raised? I am puzzled how it will ever be possible within a reasonable timescale to properly assess whether a measure taken by either the UK Government or the Scottish Government resulted in higher growth and therefore a higher tax rate or the other way round. The Minister must know that most of these matters are in dispute, sometimes for years, because no one can be really sure why a tax take went up or down. There can be a hunch or a feeling, but these things are contested maybe even decades after they happen. Given that this is a settlement that has to fix the grant every year, I am just wondering how you do it.
Lord Dunlop
As I said, the agreement will set out the mechanism by which these matters are determined, so in that sense we will have reached agreement. That will avoid the perpetual wrangling. If you like, that is one of the complexities that we have been wrestling with and why it is taking time—
Lord Darling of Roulanish
I have one more observation. I am just wondering how, in the case of the SNP, perpetual wrangling can be written out of the script.
Lord Dunlop
A good start is if we actually get an agreement that, I hope, we can announce in the not too distant future.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
Can I press the Minister on this? We have three models in front of us—the per capita index deduction, the index deduction and the levels deduction. Do I take it that the Minister has ruled out the per capita index deduction because there is too much of a bias to Scotland in terms of its population going down and it being rewarded excessively? Looking at the Chief Secretary’s letter, it would seem that the Government from paragraph 13 onwards have looked at the levels model and the index model and decided to provide another hybrid model to the negotiations for the SNP. Is that what the Government are doing? Given paragraph 13, I asked earlier what the response of the Scottish Government has been. Are they warm to that hybrid model now?
Lord Dunlop
The Committee will understand that at a very delicate time in the negotiations I do not want to comment on the state of the negotiations in detail. It is clear from the Chief Secretary’s letter that we have indeed tabled what the noble Lord described as a hybrid model.
I shall pick up on a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. We are seeking to avoid—I think the Secretary of State for Scotland put it this way in a recent debate—the Scottish Government wanting to have their cake and eat it and have a slice of everyone else’s cake while they are at it.
I now turn to borrowing, which was raised by the noble Lords, Lord Kerr, Lord Darling and Lord Turnbull. I should say at the outset that we have a lot of sympathy with what this amendment seeks to achieve.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I have a question before my noble friend moves on. I accept we have had a good go on this but I am still—perhaps I am just not smart enough to understand this—struggling to understand the Government’s position. It once was that, if Scotland is responsible for particular services, it should be responsible for raising the money and have direct accountability. What appears to be happening now is that the Government are trying to find some kind of Barnett-like top-up to the tax base. How is that going to go down with people in England? How will it take account of changes in England? For example, suppose a large number of migrants come into the country and live in the south-east of England and increase tax revenues and the tax base relative to Scotland, will that mean that there has to be money sent north of the border to maintain some kind of parity? I just do not understand how this will work. Can my noble friend explain?
Lord Dunlop
If there is faster population growth in the rest of the UK, that obviously will not just increase tax revenues. It will also increase demand for public services. This negotiation is all about a fair allocation of risk. As I said, at this delicate time of the negotiations I do not want to comment in detail about particular aspects. We will publish this agreement if and when we can get it and I will be very happy at that point to discuss and debate with my noble friend on these matters.
I have great sympathy with what the amendment tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Kerr and Lord Turnbull, seeks to achieve. It is centred on the Scottish Government’s resource and capital borrowing powers and this is an important part of the negotiations. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, asked whether this is a matter of great controversy. I do not anticipate—if we can reach agreement soon—that this issue will cause great controversy. In detail on resource borrowing, Smith talks about sufficient and additional powers to,
“ensure budgetary stability and provide safeguards to smooth … public spending in the event of economic shocks”.
The current powers of the Scottish Government are that they can borrow up to a total cap of £500 million for this purpose and an annual limit of £200 million for cash management and forecasting error in devolved tax revenues. The rationale for more in this area is the increased risk and volatility from a greater scale of tax devolution, although I again stress that this is a marginal Scotland-specific risk. This needs to be proportionate. Mindful of the need to deliver sustainable UK public finances, as the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, said, Scottish borrowing is included in UK borrowing.
When we look at these borrowing powers, we need to look at the other tools that are available to help manage the risks—the possibility of building up a rainy-day fund and the block grant adjustment mechanism itself. We also need to cater for Scotland-specific shocks if the Scottish economy is in recession while the UK economy continues to grow. That is a relatively rare event—I think it has happened three times in the last 20 years. We need to do this to protect against relative underperformance leading to worse economic outcomes through higher taxes or lower spending during recession. I pick up on a point that the noble Lord, Lord Darling, made: it is explicitly not a facility for the Scottish Government to borrow to fund current spending in normal times. That would absolutely undermine fiscal responsibility and accountability.
On capital borrowing, Smith talks about sufficient borrowing powers to support capital investment. He asked the two Governments to look at a similar prudential borrowing regime used by local authorities. The current powers involve a total cap of £2.2 billion and an annual limit of 10% of the capital grant, which is currently about £3 billion, so we are talking about £300 million per annum. All borrowing needs to be complemented by fiscal rules to ensure consistency with the overall UK fiscal framework.
The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, specifically asked about legislation. The Scottish Government’s existing borrowing powers are provided for in the Scotland Act 1998 as amended by the Scotland Act 2012. Any changes to the purposes and circumstances for which the Scottish Government have permission to borrow to reflect the transferred risks may require amendments to primary legislation. I assure noble Lords that we will review further what primary and secondary legislative changes may be needed in the light of a fiscal framework agreement, including additional independent scrutiny of the Scottish Government’s public finances, to which the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, referred. Both Houses of the UK Parliament will have an important scrutiny role.
Lord Turnbull
Will the Minister clarify a matter for me? When he talks about additional primary legislation, is he talking about bringing forward an amendment to this Bill or about a new Bill to be brought forward on some other occasion? It really belongs in this Bill.
Lord Dunlop
As I said, it depends on the timing of an agreement. Obviously it would be preferable, if possible, to provide amendments for this Bill, but that depends on our reaching an agreement and the timing of that agreement.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard
The noble Lord said that this is not the most controversial element. In fact, he implied that it was not controversial at all. In that case, do we have to wait for all the difficult bits of the fiscal framework to be agreed before we see the easy bits coming out if there are outcomes there? My noble friend Lord Turnbull is right that this Bill would be better if there were a provision in it on borrowing. I do not know whether my language is correct but this is different from the 1998 Act. We are explicitly laying down the mechanism for settling these limits because it is a reasonable assumption that there will be much more borrowing. I think it is desirable to amend the 1998 Act and, if we are going to do that, why not do it in this Bill?
Lord Dunlop
The difficulty is that you cannot separate out one element of what is an overall package. Both Governments have agreed that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. Therefore, I do not think it is possible to pluck out just one aspect and to move ahead with it on a different timescale.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Perhaps I might get the politics of this right. The proposal is that we absolutely have to get this Bill on the statute book before the Scottish elections but, come those elections, we will be able to say that there is another Bill coming down the track to deal with these matters, and we may or may not have the detail on that. Is that not going to defeat the object? Was not the position of both Front Benches earlier this afternoon that we had to deliver the vow and say that we had delivered it? If another piece of primary legislation is coming and as yet we do not know what it is going to say, does that not undermine the whole strategy?
Lord Dunlop
No, I do not believe that it does. My noble friend is asking me to comment on hypotheticals. We are engaged in trying to reach an agreement in as timely a fashion as we can to ensure that we have proper scrutiny of the fiscal framework in the context of the passage of this Bill.
I am conscious that time has been moving on and I shall be very happy to return to some of these topics on another occasion. However, I just want to pick up on a couple of points.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
There does not seem to me to be a need for separate legislation on borrowing. It is very important that the Minister clarifies that point now, otherwise we will just be chasing shadows afterwards.
Lord Dunlop
As I said, what we require in terms of legislation for borrowing depends on the final agreement. I do not think I can say more than that at the moment.
I shall conclude on a couple of points. Smith calls for a review and the Government support that idea. We are in a new world and it is right to assess how the fiscal framework and fiscal devolution work in practice and whether they impact fairly and equitably on the finances of Scotland and the rest of the UK.
I have already mentioned independent fiscal scrutiny, and the amendment from the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, addresses this. It is certainly the case that the UK Government strongly support a robust independent Scottish Fiscal Commission. That would include the capacity for that body to undertake independent forecasts—it would not just, as it were, be marking the Scottish Government’s homework. That is one of the key issues in the fiscal framework negotiations.
Finally, on commencement, my noble friend’s amendment is relevant in proposing a sunrise clause if we are unable to agree a fiscal framework. As we have already discussed, we are working hard to agree a fiscal framework. As I said earlier, I do not think that it is helpful to speculate what options would be open to us if an agreement cannot be reached. My noble friend suggested one option, and other options have been suggested as well. We will take those ideas away and set out our conclusions on Report. I therefore ask noble Lords not to press their amendments.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard
“Borrowing powers
(1) Section 66 of the Scotland Act 1998 (borrowing by the Scottish Ministers etc.) is amended as follows.
(2) For subsections (1A) and (1B) substitute—
“(1A) Subject to subsection (1B), the Scottish Ministers may borrow by way of loan or by the issue of bonds (but not bonds transferable by delivery) any sums required by them.
(1B) Borrowing by Scottish Ministers shall be subject to—
(a) annual limits; and(b) an overall ceiling. (1C) The annual limits and the overall ceiling shall be set by regulations made by the Treasury, following consultation with Scottish Ministers.
(1D) Regulations under subsection (1C) may not be made unless a draft of the regulations has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.””
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard
I understand the Minister’s point about nothing being agreed until everything is agreed. That seems to me a very reasonable point to make. However, that applies to the numbers, the levels and the ceilings; it does not apply to the principle of limits and having them in the Bill. If that is not controversial, I really think that on Report we ought to see it, not necessarily in my language but in some language, in the Bill.
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova (Lab)
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 77 and 79 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord McAvoy. The focus of Amendment 77 is the current definition of “disability benefit” used in the Bill. The concern is that this may place unnecessary limits on the kind of replacement benefit that the Scottish Government have the power to introduce. The fear is that it may not allow the Scottish Government to introduce a benefit to assist people with very low-level disabilities or those for whom the effect of their disability is largely financial.
We moved this amendment in relation to carer’s allowances at Committee stage in the other place following concerns raised by third-sector organisations. The concern from both Inclusion Scotland and Citizens Advice Scotland has been that the definition of disability might,
“restrict the autonomy”,
of the Scottish Parliament,
“to construct a new system based on empowering disabled people to lead active and productive lives and promoting the human rights of disabled people and independent living”.
Amendment 77 would offer an alternative, broader, more flexible definition of “disability benefit” that would, among other things, allow the Scottish Parliament to introduce a benefit to assist people with low-level disabilities or those for whom the effect of their disability is largely financial.
The Government brought forward an amendment on Report in the other place regarding the “carer’s allowance” definition. However, they do not appear to have done the same in relation to the “disability benefit” definition. True it is that the Ministers, the noble Lords, Lord Dunlop and Lord Freud, have both written to this side of the House trying to clarify the Government’s position. The letter we received from the Minister includes the following,
“by including the phrase ‘normally payable’ at the head of the definition, the provision gives the Scottish Parliament the necessary flexibility to create exclusions or create special categories, for example to enable provision for people who are terminally ill or those with lower needs”.
I do not, of course, doubt in any way the accuracy of the Minister’s statement, but on this side we are still keen to get assurances from the Minister on the Floor of the House and confirmation that the Scottish Government could introduce a benefit to assist people with very low-level disabilities or those for whom the effect of the disability is largely financial. That, in a nutshell, is the position that we adopt in relation to Amendment 77.
Amendment 79 provides for the devolution of the Access to Work scheme. This was an amendment that we moved at Committee stage in the other place. As my honourable friend the Member for Edinburgh South observed in the other place:
“Access to Work provides practical advice and support to disabled people, and their employers, to help them to overcome work-related obstacles resulting from disability”.—[Official Report, Commons, 30/6/15; cols. 1429-30.]
The devolution of the programme to local authorities would certainly allow there to be better tailoring to local needs.
Access to Work is closely aligned with employment support. Several charities, including Inclusion Scotland and the Wise Group, are in favour of Access to Work being devolved to Scotland. ENABLE Scotland observes that the Access to Work scheme is one of the most important elements of the employment support system for disabled people. It gives various examples, such as the British Sign Language interpreters working for deaf employees.
ENABLE Scotland states its position as believing that,
“the devolution of Access to Work is necessary to deliver integrated and accessible Employment Support in Scotland”.
Its position, which we share, is that Access to Work,
“does not currently integrate well with employability programmes”,
that are sometimes not fully delivered by the Department for Work and Pensions. It continues:
“For example, if you are a person on Work Choice you can use Access to Work to get pre-employment support in interviews or agree support whilst transitioning into work. Persons supported by the Employability Fund … do not have access to that support and face increased negotiation and bureaucracy to get the support … Given that post-devolution the employability programmes will not be delivered by the DWP, failure to devolve Access to Work in parallel will limit access for Scottish jobseekers and increase bureaucracy for specialist support organisations and employers”.
The Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations also supports the devolution of Access to Work. It takes the view that that is necessary to create the integrated accessible form of employment support that it considers, as do we, should be created in Scotland. A women’s charity in Scotland, Engender, has also identified support for devolution of the Access to Work scheme, which it says is necessary for improving overall support for disabled people.
There are four questions that the Minister could assist us by answering. I do not expect immediate direct answers to them all; an answer in writing, in the usual terms, would be fine. These questions are as follows. First an integrated package of employment support measures is essential to ensure the best outcomes for disabled people—I assume that there is no disagreement about that. So what effect will absence of Access to Work in the devolution package have on outcomes for disabled people?
Secondly, will the Minister address the points raised by ENABLE, supported by the SCVO? It says that failure to devolve Access to Work in parallel with the Work Programme and Work Choice will,
“limit access for disabled jobseekers in Scotland and increase bureaucracy for specialist support organisations and employers”.
Thirdly, does he believe that Access to Work complements the employment support programme already being devolved to Scotland? Finally, if the Government are committed to keeping this programme as a reserved matter, does that not make an even stronger case for a Joint Committee on welfare devolution to be set up? That idea is covered in a further amendment, tabled by my noble friend Lord McAvoy.
A number of amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, seem to have a broadly similar intent—to prevent the UK Government from clawing back top-up benefits paid by the Scottish Government through means-testing reserved benefits. We on the Labour side have similar concerns. The Scottish Government should be able to make top-up payments to individuals who have had their payments unfairly reduced, suspended or withdrawn under the UK Government’s sanctions regime.
We accept that Her Majesty’s Government have tabled a significant number of amendments for Report stage that mean that the Scottish Parliament appears to have complete power to create new benefits in devolved areas and top up existing benefits—which, of course, we fully support. However, Labour outlined in the other place our wish for the Scottish Government to be able to make payments to those who have been sanctioned. The Minister may well have already covered that position. Certainly in meetings with him, which were extremely helpful, it has been suggested that the question in relation to sanction is already covered by the legislation. None the less, as with the previous amendment, it would be extremely useful for us if the Government were to confirm that for the record.
We would support Amendment 77J, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, on definitions of “short-term”. We tabled an amendment in another place, but did not pursue it as we had assurances that the position would be covered by the legislation. Nevertheless, our argument in Committee has been that the inclusion of phrases such as “short-term” would appear to limit the scope of the Scottish Parliament to take action in these areas. In the instance of discretionary housing payment and other discretionary payments, the Government have told us that, in their interpretation, a discretionary payment is a short-term payment. Our argument was that a discretionary payment is just that—a payment made at the discretion of and according to parameters set by the relevant Government. We respectfully suggest that further clarification would be useful from the Minister in that area.
We support the amendments in this group proposed by Her Majesty’s Government, as these are primarily of a technical nature. I beg to move Amendment 77.
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Davidson of Glen Clova, and support the amendment in his name. I am pleased to take the Minister into the slightly calmer waters of Head F1 of Part II of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998.
I am pleased to see my favourite Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Freud, who has taken the trouble to observe and listen to these amendments, which I appreciate because this is important. I want to make one preliminary point. The most important thing that the Minister can do for me this evening is to give an undertaking that the new-found spirit of co-operation and good working relations that is now evident between Whitehall departments, the Scottish Government and the community of pressure groups who apply these provisions on behalf of their clients will continue. My perception, which is strong because I have been working with these people all my professional life, for the past 35 years, is that at the beginning people in Scotland thought they were getting short shrift, to put it mildly. This is a DWP issue. The impression—this is their perception, not mine; I am simply reporting it—is that they were getting no proper consideration or understanding in what was being proposed by the Government. I think that has changed. From my experience with the current Minister and his team, I am much assured that the consideration that has now been given to these clauses in this important part of the Bill is much better. But we need to continue to work hard at getting a good relationship with the people who are implementing the provisions north of the border. The presence of the noble Lord, Lord Freud, underlines the fact that the Government have got that message. I have now got that off my chest.
I am speaking to the amendments in my name, beginning with Amendment 77A. I will not, however, move Amendments 77D or 77G. I was getting carried away with my enthusiasm for peppering the Marshalled List with probing amendments and inadvertently misdirected myself. I managed to eliminate the UK’s reserve power for discretionary payments in universal credit. I had no intention of doing that, so I will take away from the Minister the pleasure of saying that I got that substantially wrong because I have just realised that myself.
The best way that we can make progress in the Committee is for the Minister, in dealing with all my amendments and those of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Davidson, to take this opportunity to clarify how the provisions should be interpreted.
The one thing of which we should try to persuade people north of the border is that they need not necessarily be suspicious about everything. Some of this legislation is in quite dense language and a lot of it will have to be spread out into secondary legislation to make it work. The view in Scotland is that people in London are trying to have a narrower rather than a wider interpretation of the deployment of these powers. I do not believe that is true. That is why, as I said, it is important that Ministers give this serious attention.
The people who have been briefing the Committee, such as the Scottish CPAG and the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations, have done a very good job. They are anxious to avoid gaps—that is what they are good at—and they have managed to achieve that by identifying some of the amendments on the Marshalled List this evening. They do not care where the powers lie or who is deploying them. They want to make sure that they can look after their client groups as best they can in the circumstances.
As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Davidson, has already managed to do some of it, I am going to just sketch through some of the amendments in my name. They are all probing amendments. They are designed to capture the Minister’s attention and I think they have successfully done that: he has spent some serious time getting to grips with the concerns. Amendment 77 is a very good example of this. I knew in my heart that winter fuel payments were included because they are part of the regulated Social Fund but it is not explicit in the Bill. At an earlier stage, people in Scotland were not content to take at face value that the words,
“expenses for heating in cold weather”,
would naturally and automatically import the winter fuel payments scheme in Scotland. Therefore, the purpose of the amendment—and it illustrates why I am speaking to these amendments—is to enable the Minister to say on the record from the Dispatch Box that that is the case. If he can do that, I would be grateful.
The amendments to Clause 22 seek confirmation on how top-up powers will be used and clarification on clawback powers. The use of the word “discretionary” in the title of Clause 22 caused some confusion because discretionary by definition means what it means. That could be usefully clarified by the Minister. Could he explain exactly what Clause 22 sets out to do? The amendments to Clause 23 and the two or three subsequent clauses are trying to get an understanding of exactly how the sanction restrictions will effect discretionary payments such as discretionary housing payments, crisis grants, community care grants and top-up payments. If he can help us understand that, the Minister will be doing us a favour.
The amendments to Clause 24 attempt to bottom out what power the Scottish Government currently have under the Welfare Funds (Scotland) Act 2015. It is the view of the people I have talked to that there should be support for families facing “exceptional circumstances”, which the Scottish Government, in spite of the fact that they have the Welfare Funds (Scotland) Act 2015, feel they do not have the competence to cover. I would be very interested—I think the same question was raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Davidson—to learn more about that as well.
In Clauses 27 and 28, I am really nervous about concurrent jurisdiction powers. I do not know how these will be implemented. It is a much smaller-scale problem than financial frameworks and so on, but we need a clearer understanding of how these things will work. I understand that the department thinks that they are well dealt with in Clauses 27 and 28, but I do not think that that is necessarily the case. The power to delay is an opportunity cost in terms of access to universal credit. If the Government did decide that they had to take advantage of the delaying power, that might mean, for months if not years, that people in Scotland were denied access to some of the advantages of universal credit—because there are some—and that would not be a cost-free decision for the Government to take.
I want to spend a moment on Amendment 79ZC on the Social Security Advisory Committee. I am genuinely puzzled by the Government’s approach to this because, as I read the Bill as currently drafted, they are excluding any role for the SSAC in relation to social security issues in Scotland. The Minister will know that the primary legislation for the SSAC was a 1980 Act later consolidated into the Social Security Administration Act 1992. Those provisions gave the SSAC an exactly parallel role in relation to the Social Security Agency in Northern Ireland. These two statutory accountabilities have been running in parallel ever since the SSAC was set up. Hitherto in Northern Ireland there was automatic parity with GB, so there was no real issue about any policy matters, but following last year’s fresh start agreement, it is obvious to anyone paying any attention to what is going on in Northern Ireland that the Northern Ireland Executive and the Northern Ireland Assembly now wish to introduce substantive changes to their devolved social security arrangements, so the SSAC statutory role there will now involve providing advice on devolved arrangements in one part of the United Kingdom.
My question is this: if that is appropriate for devolution in one of the nations of the United Kingdom, what is the Government’s rationale for wanting to take a diametrically opposite view for elements of social security now devolved in Scotland. It does not make any sense and I believe that there is a strong case for ensuring that the SSAC is able to take an overview of the way the UK social security system is evolving in the context of some elements being devolved to Scotland and Northern Ireland. It is certainly essential to have a single statutory independent UK body that can provide oversight of the rollout of universal credit in different ways in three parts of the United Kingdom, because that is what is happening, and of the implications of the way the exercise of the fully devolved powers in Scotland and Northern Ireland are impacting on the effectiveness and coherence of the social security system across the whole of the United Kingdom. I would be pleased to have a Government response to that.
Finally, Amendment 79ZD is the “Lord Freud” amendment, which I am now trying to promote everywhere I can because pilot schemes and test and learn have proved their value beyond any doubt in the policy area of universal credit. We should be encouraging Scottish Ministers and the Scottish Parliament to adopt them as they develop some of these important new social security powers. I understand that the government response might be, “It’s up to Scottish Ministers; it’s not up to us to tell them”, but it would be a good idea to make that explicit in the Bill as often and as clearly as we can. Perhaps the Minister will take some time in his response to clarify some of these amendments. That would do a great service to the understanding of the provisions of Part 3 of the Bill north of the border.
Lord Purvis of Tweed
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for tabling these amendments, in particular Amendments 77N and 77R. As he has said, these provisions take us in a direction in which we have not travelled so far under devolution. That is quite understandable because this is a very significant transfer of powers.
The use of the phrase “operating concurrently” has the potential to raise not only some constitutional issues, but practical issues in the relationship between the two Parliaments. If my understanding is correct, this will be a novel area where this Parliament is able retrospectively to amend what is in effect devolved legislation. Obviously that would be done in circumstances where agreement has broken down. The Scottish Government will have had a view on the practicability of implementing the powers that have been transferred to them, on who is able to receive universal credit and when. That cannot be done unless with consultation with the Secretary of State.
That is, of course, reasonable: it is an area where there was considerable political disagreement before the Bill came to Parliament, when the Scottish Government claimed that there were veto powers. I think there has been significant movement on both sides, so we have moved away from that political disagreement, but this situation may arise where the Scottish Government have a view, the Secretary of State has another and, in effect, if the Secretary of State believes that the Scottish Government are wrong, it is open to this Parliament to retrospectively amend devolved legislation. That would be a high-profile set of circumstances, so my noble friend is justified in asking the Government for a bit more information as to how the Secretary of State would define “practicable”. An enhanced requirement for the Secretary of State to state why he thinks measures would not be practicable to implement is very reasonable. As my noble friend said, the power to delay implementation is a significant power, in addition to the relationship that it would have with the Scottish Parliament.
Lord Dunlop
I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Davidson, for raising the amendments in his name and that of the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, for setting out the areas where he hopes for clarification. I will try to address the points that have been raised.
Turning first to the definition of disability, the purpose of Clause 20 is to devolve the policy space and to provide financial support to meet the extra costs arising from disability. The clause is designed to give flexibility to the Scottish Government to design their own approach with regard to policy, the criteria that are applied and the scope. The way we have done this, and implemented what Smith called for, is to define the main common features of existing benefits and the circumstances in which benefits are “normally payable”. To give the noble and learned Lord, Lord Davidson, the assurance he seeks, this is not intended to impose restrictions or obligations on the Scottish Government; they should be free to set their own agenda.
I understand that stakeholders are concerned that Scottish Ministers will interpret this clause more narrowly—for example, with regard to whether it covers terminal or fluctuating conditions such as cancer or MS. I assure the noble Lord that there is sufficient flexibility in the clause to address exceptional cases—for example, to relax conditions for the terminally ill. The term “significant adverse effect” is designed to be a very broad definition. It is not completely limitless but does not include something that is minor, trivial or negligible, and will be for the Scottish Government to determine. The clause is also drafted to prevent payment of benefit where a person is in receipt of fully funded care in a care home, for example.
Amendment 79 seeks to expand the Scottish Parliament’s employment support powers to include discretionary awards under the Access to Work scheme. The UK Government do not support this amendment for two principal reasons. Access to Work is one of the key tools available to Jobcentre Plus to provide practical support to overcome work-related obstacles arising from disability and is not a centrally contracted programme. As a result of changes made in the last spending review, there will be a real increase in the Access to Work budget that will allow support for an additional 25,000 disabled people nationally.
I will address one of the noble Lord’s further questions and get back to him in writing on some of the others. Access to Work is integral to the Jobcentre Plus offer. It is a grant scheme assisting disabled people in paid employment or with a job or work trial and is awarded for a period of three years. In some cases, the DWP and employers share costs. It is important to have consistency of treatment where big employers have employees receiving support under the scheme in different parts of the country. There is, of course, nothing to stop the Scottish Government choosing to introduce similar forms of support for disabled people in addition to Access to Work, should they wish to do so.
Amendments 77C, 77D, 77E and 77F, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, concern the topping up of reserved benefits. Again, I recognise the concern that has been expressed that Scottish Ministers will interpret the term “discretionary” too narrowly and apply it on a case-by-case basis rather than this being left to the discretion of the Scottish Parliament. I stress that the Scottish Parliament will have discretion with regard to these payments. As the noble Lord mentioned, this issue applies in the context of a whole range of measures where the Scottish Government are able to fill in any perceived gaps in UK provision and to tailor welfare to specific Scottish circumstances. The range includes top-ups to reserved benefits, discretionary housing payments, other discretionary assistance and the power to create new benefits in devolved areas.
Clause 22 gives the Scottish Parliament power to legislate for top-up payments to people in Scotland entitled to any reserved benefits, including universal credit, tax credits and child benefit. These payments are outwith the UK social security system and all that that entails. The Scottish Parliament does not need to obtain prior permission from the UK Government to make these top-up payments. However, in accordance with the Smith agreement, conditionality and sanctions within universal credit will remain reserved, so the Scottish Parliament will not be able to legislate for top-ups to offset a reserved benefits reduction as a result of an individual’s conduct, whether that is non-compliance with work-related requirements or recovery of benefit overpayment.
I can reassure the noble Lord that just because someone is sanctioned it does not mean they cannot get a payment for other reasons, such as emergencies. That is absolutely clear from what this clause is trying to do. I can also reassure the noble Lord that there is no automatic offsetting of top-up payments with reductions to reserved benefits, as per paragraph 55 of the Smith agreement. The Secretary of State for Scotland has written on this matter and said that,
“the UK Government agrees with the principle of not automatically off-setting new benefits with reductions elsewhere, as set out in para. 55 of the Smith Commission Agreement”.
I turn to Amendments 77J and 77K, about other discretionary payments and assistance. The purpose of Clause 24 is to broaden the exception of the 1998 Act to the social security reservation governing how the social welfare fund operates. There are two new exceptions here: Exception 7, relating to discretionary payments, gives short-term financial or other assistance to avoid risk to an individual’s well-being. Exception 8 gives occasional payments to help vulnerable people establish and maintain a settled home. The difference from the existing exception is that the requirement is only short-term. It does not also have to be immediate and arising from an exceptional event or circumstance. However, the payment could be to meet an immediate need. This is not intended to reduce the powers of the Scottish Parliament. To give a practical example, if a cooker breaks then this would cover the immediate food vouchers that might be required as well as help for repair of the cooker itself. However, the term “short-term” is needed to ensure that this provision does not stray into reserved territory in providing an ongoing entitlement.
I turn to the power to create new benefits in devolved areas, covered by Amendments 77L and 77M. The purpose of Clause 26 is that, under the 1998 Act, the Scottish Parliament has wide powers to legislate in any area of devolved responsibility, including the provision of new benefits. Examples of how this has been used include the provision of educational maintenance grants, free school meals, free prescriptions and the council tax reduction scheme. However, the Scottish Government would have to engage with the UK Government if they wished to create new benefits that strayed into the reservation under F1 of Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998. Clause 26 inserts a new Exception 10 into F1 of the 1998 Act to put it beyond doubt that the Scottish Parliament can create new benefits in areas of devolved responsibility without the need to engage the UK Government. So the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government will have freedom to design and deliver welfare provision tailored to meet the needs of the people of Scotland.
Amendments 77N and 77R relate to the operation of concurrent universal credit regulation-making powers. Smith was very clear that universal credit remains reserved. It is, after all, a key part—with pensions—of the social union. However, it provides the Scottish Government with limited powers to vary certain aspects. Therefore Clause 27 gives the Scottish Government regulation-making powers to vary housing costs within universal credit for claimants who rent and to allow payments direct to landlords. Clause 28 gives Scottish Ministers regulation-making powers to change the frequency of universal credit payments to claimants, usually once a month, otherwise twice or four times a month and also to decide in what circumstances a single payment to a claimant couple could be split, for example if one partner has a drink or a gambling problem.
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope
The Minister is being helpful but this is important. I do not see any escalation mechanism. I supported some of these universal credit changes that the Scottish Government are now seeking to win back—flexibilities in Clauses 27 and 28. However, if we are to use this mechanism, there needs to be some way of resolving disputes in situations where agreements simply cannot be reached. Postponing the introduction of changes indefinitely is not an answer to that question.
Lord Dunlop
The first thing to say is that we do not anticipate problems. That is why I go back to this being a backstop power. The powers to vary are discrete. We shall come on to talk about the amendments regarding a welfare commission, but already close intergovernmental working has been established both at ministerial and official level and a lot of work is going on through visits and teach-ins and the like. Given where we are with universal credit rollout—it is already fully rolled out in Musselburgh; by June it will be rolled out in Inverness and by autumn in another five centres across Scotland—there is an opportunity to look at how these changes and the flexibilities that the Scottish Government have got might actually work in practice. There is a good dialogue between the two Governments to establish what the Scottish Government want to do with these powers and what draft Scottish Parliament universal credit regulations might look like. In terms of dispute resolution, we have already established a joint ministerial group on welfare. That has already proved an effective mechanism for resolving any issues between the two Governments.
I turn to the government amendments. Amendment 77B is technical in nature and ensures that executive competence will be transferred to the Scottish Ministers so that they can make payments of Sure Start, maternity grants, funeral payments, cold weather payments and winter fuel payments when Clause 21 is commenced. Clause 21 provides the Scottish Parliament with legislative competence to create a scheme that would allow it to make payments or provide other assistance for funeral and maternity expenses, and expenses incurred due to cold weather. Without the amendment to Clause 21, executive competence would not be transferred to Scottish Ministers when the clause is commenced. This would prevent Scottish Ministers being able to make payments in respect of Sure Start, maternity grants and all the other payments to which I have referred. This amendment therefore ensures that people in Scotland can be paid these benefits by Scottish Ministers and that payments will be made out of Scottish funds.
Our amendments between Amendment 77P and Amendment 79ZB are again technical amendments. They deal with the way in which existing social security legislation will apply after the transfer of powers under the Bill. The amendments to Clauses 27 and 28 relate to universal credit and put beyond doubt the intention that where regulations are made by Scottish Ministers under the new powers, the Scottish Parliament’s procedure for negative instruments applies. Clause 31 is a technical provision that requires legislation to universal credit to be read as if references to the Secretary of State were references to Scottish Ministers. After careful consideration and since universal credit will remain a reserved benefit administered by the DWP, this clause is not required.
The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, mentioned the Social Security Advisory Committee and its role to advise the Secretary of State on relevant matters relating to social security. The Industrial Injuries Advisory Council advises the Secretary of State on matters relating to industrial injuries benefit and its administration. The roles of the SSAC and IIAC are to remain unchanged. Scottish Ministers, however, will not be able to refer their draft regulations to these bodies for consideration. Once legislative competence has been given to the Scottish Parliament it may, if it wishes, put in place separate scrutiny bodies to consider legislative proposals made by the Scottish Government within the scope of the legislative competence and report back to Scottish Ministers. It is for this reason that we do not support Amendment 79ZC, which seeks to change the role of the SSAC to give it a duty to advise Scottish Ministers. We would of course want to put in place arrangements to facilitate information and co-operation between the two Governments.
Finally, Amendments 79ZE, 79ZF and 79ZG will ensure that UK Parliament procedure is converted into Scottish Parliament procedure in relation to the secondary legislation that Scottish Ministers will be able to make in relation to welfare foods. I will move these government amendments and I ask noble Lords to withdraw or not move their amendments.
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova
I express my gratitude to the Minister for the clarifications that he has given in relation to disability benefit and its definition. In relation to access to work, I will reflect on the answer he has given and eagerly await the Written Answers. In these circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Dunlop
“( ) In section 138 of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 (payments out of the social fund) after subsection (4) insert—
“(4A) This section has effect in or as regards Scotland as if—
(a) references in subsections (1)(a) and (2) to the making of payments out of the social fund were to the making of payments by the Scottish Ministers,(b) the reference in subsection (2) to the Secretary of State were to the Scottish Ministers, and(c) the reference in subsection (4) to regulations were to regulations made by the Scottish Ministers.(4B) Where regulations are made by the Scottish Ministers under this section—
(a) sections 175(2) and (7) and 176 do not apply, and(b) the regulations are subject to the negative procedure (see section 28 of the Interpretation and Legislative Reform (Scotland) Act 2010). (4C) The power to make an Order in Council under section 30(3) of the Scotland Act 1998 is exercisable for the purposes of this section as it is exercisable for the purposes of that Act.””
Lord Dunlop
Lord Dunlop
Lord McAvoy
“Joint Committee on Welfare Devolution
(1) There shall be a Joint Committee on Welfare Devolution to examine the transfer, implementation and operation of the powers devolved to the Scottish Parliament by Part 3 of this Act.
(2) The Joint Committee on Welfare Devolution shall be responsible for ensuring full co-operation, consultation and information-sharing between the United Kingdom Government, the Scottish Government and relevant stakeholders.
(3) The Joint Committee on Welfare Devolution shall publish a report—
(a) on the transfer and implementation of the powers devolved to the Scottish Parliament by Part 3 of this Act, at least once every three months for the first three years from the date on which this Act is passed, and(b) on the operation of the powers devolved to the Scottish Parliament by Part 3 of this Act, at least once in each calendar year, starting three years from the date on which this Act is passed.(4) Schedule (The Joint Committee on Welfare Devolution), which makes further provision in relation to the Joint Committee on Welfare Devolution, has effect.”
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I speak to Amendment 78 standing in my name and that of my noble and learned friend Lord Davidson of Glen Clova. The amendment provides for the establishment of a Joint Committee on welfare devolution that would oversee the transfer and implementation of the welfare and employment support powers transferred under the Bill. This cross-party committee would not only examine the transfer, implementation and operation of these powers; it would also be responsible for ensuring full co-operation, consultation and information-sharing between the UK Government, the Scottish Government and, crucially, the relevant local stakeholders. The committee would be established in a spirit of mutual co-operation and transparency. Those principles must lie at the heart of the devolution settlement and, indeed, are what I believe to be the cornerstones of any future intergovernmental discussions.
The creation of the committee would provide an important mechanism through which the Scottish people can engage with the devolution process, and the membership of the committee would make that clear. Before I get on to why I think such a committee is needed, let me first outline how we envisage such a committee working in practice.
The committee would be made up of 10 members, with equal representation from both the UK and Scottish Governments, including the Secretary of State, UK and Scottish Welfare Ministers—presumably the noble Lord, Lord Freud—Back-Benchers from both Parliaments and representatives from Scottish local government. The committee would determine its own proceedings and, acting jointly, the Secretary of State and Scottish Ministers could appoint an advisory panel on welfare reform comprising academics, representatives from third-sector and voluntary organisations, and any other relevant stakeholders. Following the passing of this Bill, the committee would publish reports every three months for the first three years and annually thereafter. The aim is to provide a truly all-encompassing, all-inclusive process.
The very detailed debate that we have just had about welfare benefits and employment support highlights why such a committee is needed. The work of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, is well known and has been demonstrated in the past 20 minutes or so, so the expertise is certainly there. A number of points were raised that show how such a committee could be of value. The amendments proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, recognise the importance of joined-up working, particularly on welfare. These are extremely complex issues, but I have no doubt that the committee would make a positive contribution during the transition of the welfare provisions, with experts from local government and voluntary organisations feeding into discussions. Indeed, the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations warmly welcomed this initiative, stating that it is a,
“pragmatic proposal given the need to ensure continuous, timely delivery of social security payments to those who receive them”.
Lord Dunlop
I thank the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for his amendment. With this Bill we are moving into a new world of two parallel systems, and it is absolutely the responsibility of both the UK Government and the Scottish Government to ensure that there is a seamless transition from the current situation to that new world and that there are no cracks for people to fall between. We have an important duty in that regard. There is very much a common interest in the UK Government and the Scottish Government working together.
The Government are very sympathetic to the intent behind the amendment but we argue that it is unnecessary because there are existing arrangements in place. However, I agree with the noble Lord on the principle of co-operation, and there is a good level of intergovernmental co-operation in this space already.
The first example of that is the joint ministerial group on welfare, which was proposed by the Prime Minister to the First Minister when they first met after she was elected to her post in November 2014. This body is jointly chaired by the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Scottish Government Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Communities & Pensioners’ Rights. Its membership includes not just Scotland Office and Scottish Government Ministers, but is also attended by DWP and Treasury Ministers as required and their Scottish equivalents: for example, the Finance Secretary and the Cabinet Secretary for Fair Work, Skills & Training.
Since February 2015, the ministerial group on welfare has met four times and its agenda covered very practical issues that one would expect as a part of inter-governmental co-operation: information sharing, policy issues, operational and transitional issues and, crucially, dispute resolution. To give some examples, two issues that were resolved through this mechanism were the Work Programme contract extensions and the facilitation of the early introduction of UC flexibilities.
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope
That is an important group; I confess that I did not know that it met and dealt with those things. How do people find out about this? Are there minutes on websites of decisions taken? If people are trying to find out about this important work that the Minister is telling us about, how do we find out about it?
Lord Dunlop
The noble Lord raises a good point. One thing that I will take away from this debate is to see how we can promote a better understanding of how this group works and the issues that are being discussed. If I can give him this reassurance, I will certainly take that away.
Along with the ministerial group, there is also a senior officials’ group, which covers very much the same agenda of issues as the ministerial group. It is jointly chaired by the DWP director of devolution and the Scottish Government director of welfare, housing and regeneration. It has a remit to meet quarterly; I think that the next meeting is coming up very shortly, on 1 March. As other examples of co-operation, the DWP has seconded officials to the Scottish Government and, as I mentioned earlier, there is a programme to brief Scottish Government officials and get them up to speed on how the existing system works, so that the Scottish Government are in a much better position to determine how they are going to develop the powers that are coming to them.
In terms of parliamentary scrutiny, DWP Ministers and officials obviously appear before the Scottish Parliament Welfare Reform Committee and are available to appear before the committees of this Parliament. On local authority and other stakeholder engagement, the DWP runs three stakeholder forums in Scotland per year to provide operational updates and improve joint working. It engages with a range of stakeholders from CoSLA, Citizens Advice Scotland, the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations, the Prince’s Trust and the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations. CoSLA and the Scottish Government are both represented on the universal credit partnerships forum, chaired jointly by the DWP and the Local Government Association.
As to reporting, I am happy to take on board and explore with the Scottish Government how we can improve reporting on the working of the joint ministerial working group on welfare, and our intent would be to provide annual reports on implementation.
Therefore, we regard the amendment tabled by the noble Lord as unnecessary, but it also confuses executive and scrutiny functions and perhaps lacks a clear objective—what outcome are we looking for here? One difficulty is that there is no precedent that I am aware of to fall back on. To whom will this body report? As I have explained, there are better ways to achieve the intent behind this amendment, to which, as I say, I am sympathetic. Therefore I ask the noble Lord to withdraw it.
Lord McAvoy
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his positive response, particularly with regard to his response to the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope. I share the Minister’s surprise that he was not aware of it, because he seems to know everything else about social security. However, I am pleased, not by the concession—it is not a case of wanting concessions—but by the confirmation from the Minister that he will look at ways at following up the proposal from the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood.
As the Minister was outlining all the ministerial and civil servant involvement, I thought that something was glaringly missing, which was the users, the public—some sort of public consultation and representation. He then went on to list a whole host of organisations that the Government have some kind of link with. However, I still feel that there is a case for more direct involvement by users groups and local organisations. I get the feeling that the links with the organisations are perhaps a bit perfunctory. I hope that I am wrong about that but nevertheless there is still a bit of a case for more direct users’ involvement. The system always needs to hear what went wrong and what went right, and so on. Nevertheless, with that little prevarication, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Dunlop
“Social Security Advisory Committee and Industrial Injuries Advisory Council
(1) Section 53 of the Scotland Act 1998 does not apply in relation to any function of a Minister of the Crown under the legislation relating to social security and industrial injuries advisory bodies.
(2) Section 117 of that Act does not apply in relation to any reference to a Minister of the Crown in that legislation.
(3) In this section—
“the legislation relating to social security and industrial injuries advisory bodies” means any provision of sections 170 to 174 of, and Schedules 5 to 7 to, the Social Security Administration Act 1992 (Social Security Advisory Committee and Industrial Injuries Advisory Council);“Minister of the Crown” includes the Treasury.”
Lord Dunlop
Lord Hope of Craighead
Lord Hope of Craighead
My Lords, this amendment is the first in a group which deals with Clause 68 and draws attention to the very broad nature of this clause, which is usually described as a Henry VIII clause. In this group are five amendments in my name: Amendments 79A to 79E, which are also in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth.
May I explain a little of the background to this series of amendments? In recent months increasing concern has been expressed in this House about the use of Henry VIII clauses. I recall particularly the debate on the report of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, arising from the concern about the use of statutory instruments and the inability of this House to amend them and do anything other than pass or refuse to pass them. It was in that connection that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, delivered a very powerful speech that alerted us to the great dangers of overuse of Henry VIII clauses.
Clause 68 has been cited as a particularly extreme example of the use of this type of clause. To explain the point, I will analyse the clause a little to see what it actually does. It is headed:
“Power to make consequential, transitional and saving provision”.
I have no complaint about transitional and saving provision. My amendments seek to remove from the clause those parts that refer to consequential provisions.
If you look through the clause you will find that subsection (1) would give power to the Secretary of State by regulations to make,
“such consequential provision in connection with any provision of Part 1, 3, 4, 5 or 6 … as the Secretary of State considers appropriate”.
Part 2 is not mentioned there. If you look at Part 2, you will find more precisely targeted provisions dealing with related powers in Clauses 15 and 19. The draftsman has taken the trouble to provide provisions related to the needs of that particular part. In this subsection you will see that Parts 1, 3, 4, 5 and 6 are grouped together in a way that does not attempt to target the need for the provision in any particular way at all.
Then you will find in subsection (2):
“Regulations under this section may amend, repeal, revoke or otherwise modify any of the following (whenever passed or made) … an enactment or an instrument made under an enactment … a prerogative instrument … any other instrument or document”.
Subsection (3) is very wide because of the way in which it enables these regulations to proceed. They may be used for all sorts of purposes which are set out in the subsection.
As far as the expression “an enactment” is concerned, there is a definition in subsection (7), which tells us that it includes,
“an Act of the Scottish Parliament”,
but also goes on to say that it includes,
“a Measure or Act of the National Assembly for Wales, and … Northern Ireland legislation”.
It is startling to find references to the measures passed by the other devolved institutions in a Bill that purports to deal only with Scotland.
If you look carefully at subsection (5) you can find that the regulations may repeal,
“any provision of primary legislation”,
and that expression is defined as including an Act of Parliament—in other words an Act of this Parliament. The Secretary of State is seeking to assert to himself a power to,
“amend, repeal, revoke or otherwise modify”,
a whole range of statutes including Acts of this Parliament and measures of the devolved institutions, without any limit of time whatever for any purpose he may consider proper, so long as it can be described as consequential.
There are four features of this provision which are the source of particular concern and I have, in a way, hinted at them in the opening remarks. First, there is no limit on the time during which this power may be exercised or on its extent. Secondly, there is no attempt to relate the provisions about consequential provision to the needs of any particular parts or clauses within the parts referred to in subsection (1).
Thirdly, the power is to be exercised by statutory instrument, which has all the defects referred to in the debate that I mentioned earlier. All we can do is look at what the instrument says and either pass or refuse to pass it. There is no opportunity for this House, or indeed the other place, to subject it to the scrutiny that primary legislation would receive. That is quite extraordinary when you consider the scope of the power that the Secretary of State is seeking to give himself.
Fourthly, the power is to be exercised by the Secretary of State, but there is no provision that he is to be required to consult Scottish Ministers. We have already had debates about Clause 2 and the Sewel convention, which is not being made part of a statutory provision. It is subject to the word “normally”, and its scope and application are open to some question unless they are spelled out in the statute, and it is perhaps not entirely clear whether it extends to statutory instruments as well as to primary legislation.
Therefore, the scope of the clause is in itself disturbing, but in this Bill, of all Bills, it is even more extraordinary because, as we have been told from the very beginning, the purpose of the Bill is to give effect to what one finds in the Smith commission report—no more, no less. Yet the power given to the Secretary of State will enable him to go well beyond what is set out in this Bill and it is not qualified in any way to limit the Secretary of State to what may be found in the Smith commission report, however widely one might construe it.
This really is an extreme provision which ought to be edited in some way to make it clear that what is being done relates to the nature of the Bill, which deals with Scotland, and to the need of the clauses or parts of the Bill in question to give effect to the Smith commission report. As it stands, it seems far, far too wide. It may simply be the product of—if I may say so with all due respect to those who are responsible—lazy draftsmanship. Of course, it is dead easy to write in words as widely as we find here without giving any thought to how necessary they may be.
For those reasons, I respectfully suggest that this clause is defective in so far as it seeks to relate to consequential provisions, and the parts which are the subject of my amendments should simply be taken out of the Bill. I beg to move.
The Lord Speaker (Baroness D’Souza)
My Lords, if this amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 79AA by reason of pre-emption.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, amendments in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Stephen are in this group. Basically, the arguments are very similar to those just advanced by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead. The powers in Clause 68 are extremely wide. We are coming to the end of the Bill and people will think that these are technical amendments but in fact they are of profound constitutional importance. In its report on the Bill, your Lordships’ Constitution Committee has already drawn the House’s attention to the extent of the powers conferred by Clause 68, and therefore it is important that the Government take these points seriously.
Our Amendment 79AA is very similar to the amendment moved by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, with one difference, which is that we allow the powers to apply in respect of Part 3 because of the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Paragraphs 24 to 28 of the committee’s 15th report of this Session deal with this clause.
The noble and learned Lord gave a number of reasons why he thought that this provision was exceptional but I think that he may have missed one out. He said that there was no limit to when these powers could be used but in fact there is no time limit on the legislation that it can apply to. Subsection (2) says:
“Regulations under this section may amend, repeal, revoke or otherwise modify any of the following (whenever passed or made)”.
I emphasise the last four words, which mean that future legislation could be affected by these powers. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee said in paragraph 25 of its report that the memorandum from the Government,
“acknowledges that the power to amend or repeal future enactments is exceptional. Reasons are given as to why this is needed in connection with Part 3 of the Bill which deals with welfare benefits: the commencement of Part 3 is expected to take place over a period of time and, because of the complexity of the area, it may be necessary to make changes to legislation enacted between the date on which the Bill is passed and the date on which the functions to which Part 3 applies are transferred to Scottish Ministers. We consider this provides a reasonable explanation for needing the power to amend future enactments in relation to Part 3 of the Bill”.
But the report goes on to say that that,
“does not justify the extension of this power to the other Parts of the Bill. It may be that similar considerations apply, but because nothing is said about this in the memorandum it is impossible to know”.
In other words, the Government are not only trying to take these powers but they have given the appropriate committee of your Lordships’ House that is scrutinising the Bill no reason whatsoever for such wide powers, including the exceptional power to amend or repeal future enactments. They did provide an explanation in respect of Part 3, which the committee found to be a reasonable one, and that is why we have not sought to remove it. Amendment 79AB is consequential.
As was also picked up on by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, Amendment 79BA refers to the provision that talks about,
“any other instrument or document”.
Our amendment would remove those words from subsection (2), as it is thought that it is extremely wide. Again, the 15th report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee commented on this at paragraph 27, noting its exceptionally wide effect without any compelling reason—that no justification has been given for a power to revoke any instrument or document, whenever made. Therefore, we believe that it should be removed from the Bill.
The other point is one touched on by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. We deal with it in Amendment 79EA, which would remove references to Acts of the National Assembly for Wales and Northern Ireland legislation from this regulation-making power. Again, no substantive reason has been provided for extending the Secretary of State’s regulation-making power under Clause 68 to legislation made by either the National Assembly for Wales or the Northern Ireland Assembly. It seems very wide and raises the interesting question of whether legislative consent Motions were required in the Northern Ireland Assembly or the National Assembly for Wales before including these provisions in the Bill or whether, indeed, if these powers are ever wished to be used, doing so would require legislative consent Motions. Perhaps the Minister can enlighten us when he comes to reply.
Lord McCluskey
Before the noble and learned Lord sits down, may I ask him a question on that point that I meant to ask my noble and learned friend Lord Hope? The particular measure in subsection (7) refers to, as the noble Lord said, Wales and Northern Ireland legislation. Is that within the Long Title of the Bill? The Long Title is:
“To amend the Scotland Act 1998 and make provision about the functions of the Scottish Ministers”,
not the Secretary of State, “and for connected purposes”. I am not very good at reading Long Titles, but when I read this I cannot see how the subsection objected to fits within it.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
The noble and learned Lord makes a very important and perceptive point, and I am glad it is not me who has to reply to it from the Dispatch Box. I certainly see his point that it is a very stark, simple Long Title. To actually extend the ambit of the Bill to Measures or Acts of the National Assembly for Wales or legislation of the Northern Ireland Assembly does seem a bit of a stretch. No doubt the Minister can enlighten us when he comes to reply.
The important point is that we do take seriously the report from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. At the heart of it, these are extremely wide powers and, in some respects, exceptional powers. With the one exception relating to Part 3, no explanation or justification has been provided by the Government for taking these wide powers.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Could the noble and learned Lord, with his considerable experience, give me some legal advice? I wonder whether, if a clause like this had been included in the previous Scotland Bill, it would have been necessary to have this Bill at all.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
That is a good point. As the noble Lord was making it I was wondering whether the phrase,
“any other instrument or document”,
could apply to the fiscal framework—but perhaps that is stretching things a bit too far. Actually, “any document” could include the fiscal framework, so perhaps the Minister can tell us more.
The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)
I support the amendment tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead. I said near the start of the debate that I felt that, of all the stuff we have had in Committee over the past few days, this clause was the one thing that was inconsistent with the Smith commission agreement. I shall explain a bit more of my thinking behind that.
I have my dog-eared copy of the Smith commission report here, and in the foreword there is a paragraph headed “A more autonomous Parliament”, which starts:
“The Scottish Parliament will be made permanent … and given powers over how it is elected and run”.
In paragraph 26, entitled “Powers over the operation of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Administration”, we read that:
“UK legislation will give the Scottish Parliament powers to make decisions about all matters relating to the arrangements and operations of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government, including”,
and then follows a list of the things that are included.
It seems to me that those words—and I am sure that we could trawl through the Smith commission report and find others—at least raise a reasonable doubt about whether the provisions are consistent with the Smith agreement. I would certainly feel, on balance, that they were not. There are few fans of Henry VIII clauses in this House, and I can see no reason why these powers are needed, or indeed—because of my point about the Smith commission—why they should be there.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, when I first saw Clause 68 I was outraged, and my instinct was to take it out entirely. Then I saw the rather more finessed approach of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, so I quickly added my name to his amendments. I very much support those amendments, and the approach taken by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness.
I was outraged when I saw the clause because—together with the fact that the Government propose to take this Bill, as it has already been taken, through the House of Commons, and then through the House of Lords, without the fiscal framework being in place—it gives the impression of a Government who see Parliament as a rather irritating thing that has to be got through, rather than as the process by which legislation is carefully considered.
It is 20 years since I was in government, but in my day this would never have got past the parliamentary draftsmen. Even if it had, it would have been knocked on the head by L Committee. It is very worrying that a Bill can get to this stage, having gone through the House of Commons, with such completely open provisions. I was not making the point in jest: I genuinely think that with these powers it would have been possible to put the entire contents of the Bill into statutory instruments. That would have been jolly convenient for the Government—would it not?—because they would have been able to say, “We’re simply implementing the Smith commission report. There’s a convention that your Lordships don’t amend or vote against regulations”, and that would have been that. It would have been a very retrograde step indeed—so I hope that my noble friend will simply take the clause out entirely, as he did with a previous clause this evening. If not that, I certainly accept the amendments tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and possibly make a concession because of the points made to the Delegated Powers Committee.
I will certainly not press removing the clause altogether at a later stage, but the Government need to respond to this and recognise the very considerable feeling in the House, which was illustrated by the debate that we had on the Strathclyde commission proposals. I thought that the Government said that they were going to mend their ways. Certainly, the Strathclyde commission report was balanced in that it suggested that that needed to be done. This would be a great opportunity for the Government to show good will towards the Strathclyde recommendations. Then they might be able to persuade some of us who have doubts about them that it would be sensible to reach a compromise.
Lord Norton of Louth (Con)
My Lords, I want to reinforce points that have already been made. It is important to stress that we should not let the late hour mask the importance of the amendments before us. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, stressed, this clause has important constitutional significance. It raises fundamental issues and I concur with everything that was said by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, and reinforced by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness. He referred to the report by the Constitution Committee on the Scotland Bill and I reiterate the comments made by that committee, on which I served, in respect of this clause.
In its report, the committee drew attention to the clause, saying:
“As has become a trend over the years, the Government has put forward a Henry VIII clause which gives it powers well beyond those which are necessary to achieve this end”—
that is, the end of the Bill. It goes on to say that,
“we once again must express our concern at a Government proposal that would provide Ministers with too much power at the expense of Parliament”.
Here we have a Bill that is giving the Government greater powers than is the norm in these types of clauses, as has already been stressed, without any justification for so doing.
It is amazing that we have got to this stage without the Government providing a clear justification for what is before us. We must take our role seriously in terms of acting as a constitutional safeguard to make sure that the Government do not use these measures to take powers that have not been justified by them and which would put us in a difficult situation in any future measures. The Government must take this very seriously and I hope that the Minister will give some commitment that between now and Report changes will be introduced by the Government themselves.
Lord McAvoy
My Lords, I join in the debate and fully endorse all of the speeches made, particularly by the noble and learned Lords, Lord Hope of Craighead and Lord Wallace of Tankerness. As most of my comments have already been made as quotes from the Delegated Powers Committee, I will concentrate on one aspect of this, although I also completely endorse the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean. It gives me such pleasure to do so.
The comments about scrutiny were made far more eloquently than I could make, so I will just endorse those comments of the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth. I want to concentrate particularly on the provision-making policy because it affects a significant amount of social security legislation, which can be of an extremely complicated nature.
In a letter, the Minister said:
“Although extensive checks have been carried out as to the effect of the provisions of this Bill and the interaction with social security legislation, it is possible that, in implementing the provisions of the Bill, consequential amendments are found to be necessary to fulfil Parliamentary intention”.
As the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, mentioned, there is an important constitutional role for the House, even at this time of night.
The memorandum concerning the delegated powers in the Bill states:
“Furthermore, Social security has, until now, broadly remained reserved across Great Britain and delivered on a GB-wide basis by the UK Government. In operating a system where responsibility for the different social security benefits paid in Scotland is split between the UK and Scottish Parliament there may be some areas where the respective Governments may wish to make mutually beneficial agreements relating to delivery which may require consequential amendments to existing legislation—for example to facilitate fraud investigations, debt recovery and compliance issues arising out of overpayments in respect of both reserved and devolved benefits”.
I conclude by joining the comments made by many Members of your Lordships’ House who have spoken tonight. There has got to be a reason—is it laziness, bad draftsmanship or is there a purpose behind it? Were they thought out, were they put down specifically? I join other noble Lords in asking why it was felt these powers were necessary.
Lord Dunlop
First, I thank noble and learned Lords for their contribution to the debate about Clause 68. These provisions have been well scrutinised by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and I am grateful for the Committee’s examination and subsequent report. Of course, Bills of this nature do require necessary powers to ensure that the powers that are transferring to the Scottish Parliament transfer effectively. That is one point that the committee recognised in its report; it is therefore to retain those aspects of Clause 68. However, having considered the report, the Government accept that the ability to amend future enactments and prerogative instruments, and any other future instruments or documents, and Welsh and Northern Ireland legislation whether made in the future or the past, is unlikely to be required for Parts 1, 4, 5 and 6 of the Scotland Bill. Therefore, we intend to bring forward an appropriate amendment on Report, amending the provisions.
More broadly, powers to make consequential provision are commonly found in primary legislation. Section 105, read with Section 113 of the Scotland Act, provides similar powers. The Bill contains consequential amendments identified as necessary during the course of its preparation. However, given the nature of the Scotland Bill and the significant devolution of legislative and Executive powers, it is difficult to anticipate the full extent of the consequential amendments required once the Bill has been commenced. Further, the nature of the Bill means that it effects both Westminster and Scottish Parliament legislation and it is possible that officials in either Administration may in future identify additional necessary amendments to either primary or secondary legislation.
I turn specifically to the use of the consequential power in relation to welfare provisions:
“In operating a system where responsibility for the different social security benefits paid in Scotland is split between the UK and Scottish Parliament there may be some areas where the respective Governments may wish to make mutually beneficial agreements relating to delivery which may require consequential amendments to existing legislation—for example to facilitate fraud investigations, debt recovery and compliance issues arising out of overpayments in respect of both reserved and devolved benefits”.
How feasible it is to make such arrangements will depend,
“to some degree on the provision that the Scottish Parliament puts in place and any agreements would need to be considered and agreed between both the UK and Scottish Governments”.
Therefore, it is necessary to have appropriate consequential provision in the Bill. However, as I said, the Government intend to bring forward an appropriate amendment on the basis that I have set out.
Next I would like to address the concern of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, related to,
“any other instrument or document”,
which I think has been proposed by the Law Society. The Government intend to retain the power to amend current instruments or documents. Let me offer the rationale for that. Section 117 of the Scotland Act 1998 provides that, so far as may be necessary for the purpose of or in consequence of an exercise of a function by a Member of the Scottish Government in devolved competence, any pre-commencement enactment or prerogative instrument and any other instrument or document shall be read as if references to a Minister of the Crown were or included references to Scottish Ministers. The effect of the gloss by Clause 30 of the Bill of references to pre-commencement enactment in the Scotland Act 1998 is that instruments or documents such as the contracts entered into by the UK Government for the provision of welfare that refer to a Minister of the Crown will be glossed appropriately to refer to Scottish Ministers.
However, other amendments or transitional arrangements may be required to ensure the efficient and effective transfer of contracts. For example, the gloss converts references only to a Minister of the Crown to Scottish Ministers. There may be other references that need to be amended. Accordingly, a power to amend, repeal, revoke or modify any other instruments or documents whenever passed or made is required for Part 3. We accept that the power to amend any other future instruments or documents is unlikely to be required, as I have said, in relation to Parts 1, 4, 5 and 6, and we will be bringing forward an amendment to address this issue. We are retaining the power to amend existing instruments and documents on the basis that that is likely to be required, given the scale of the powers being devolved to the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Ministers.
Lord Purvis of Tweed
It is welcome to hear the Government’s view as regards potential amendments on Report. However, in light of the Minister’s remarks, how does Clause 68 sit with Clause 2 when it comes to areas where the Government may have the power to amend Acts of the Scottish Parliament and devolved legislation? Would a legislative consent Motion mechanism be required for that, and equally for the National Assembly for Wales?
Lord Dunlop
I am happy to take the noble Lord’s point away and reflect on it, and I shall either write to him or discuss it.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Can I take my noble friend back to the debate we had earlier when the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, argued that it was important to have in the Bill specific provisions relating to borrowing powers? I think that my noble friend indicated that more primary legislation would be required; he used the phrase “primary legislation”. Can we take it that these powers would not be used, for example, to put in place a borrowing regime for the Scottish Parliament, taking into account what he has just said now with what he said earlier this evening?
Lord Dunlop
I absolutely stand by what I said earlier. There may be some aspects of borrowing that could be done through secondary legislation, and that will be made clear when we agree and publish the fiscal framework.
Lord Hope of Craighead
Before the Minister sits down yet again, I am not quite sure from his explanation that he has fully taken on board the points made by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and me about the nature of this legislation—in other words, that the purpose of the legislation is to give effect to the Smith commission report. What concerns us is the opportunity that the provisions as framed—and, indeed, as forecast by the Minister—would give for straying outside the scope of the commission. I do not know whether the Minister’s brief has really addressed that point. If not, perhaps he will be kind enough to say that he will give further thought to it. It is an important matter because we really need to keep faith with the Government’s undertaking when they introduce legislation as to what it is all about.
Lord Dunlop
I will certainly give further thought to what the noble and learned Lord has said and come back to him on it.
Lord Hope of Craighead
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all noble and noble and learned Lords who have spoken in this debate and, in particular, to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, who has drawn attention to the report of the Delegated Powers Committee, and to the noble Lord, Lord Norton, for his contribution, given his background on the Constitution Committee. This matter’s constitutional nature is evident from what has been said in the course of the debate. Of course, I am glad that some of the points I have been making have been observed already by those who are providing information to the Minister, but here is a case where—if I may say so with great respect—the Minister has the authority of the House to go back to the draftsmen on the Bill team and say that this has been taken too far and it is time to put an end to the wide use of these clauses.
The Minister has gone some way along that course already, for which I am very grateful, but I urge him to read very carefully the points made by everybody in this debate and reflect carefully with the Bill team on whether the extent of the trimming down he has forecast goes far enough. I appreciate that time is very short, with Report stage on Wednesday. I am prepared, in light of what the Minister has said, to withdraw my amendment for the time being, but I give notice that I have to put down some kind of amendment to keep the point open, because I do not know exactly what he will come up with. So we will return to this issue, because of its importance. Having said that, I am content for the time being to withdraw my amendment.
Lord McCluskey
“The fiscal framework
(1) Within 30 days of the date on which this Act is passed, the Secretary of State must publish in full the new fiscal framework agreed between the Scottish and UK Governments, unless it has already been published by the Secretary of State.
(2) Within 30 days of the date on which this Act is passed, the Secretary of State shall publish as an appendix to the new fiscal framework as published a full description of any agreement whatsoever reached between the said Governments relating to the future of the Barnett Formula or its application, amendment or replacement in the future, including any agreement as to when any such change is intended to be considered by the two Governments in the future.
(3) In this section, “the new fiscal framework” means the agreement between the said Governments as to the arrangements and institutions intended to underpin the tax and spending powers included and devolved under this Act and under the Scotland Acts of 1998 and 2012, including the funding of the Scottish budget, planning, management and scrutiny of public revenues and spending, the manner in which the block grant is or may be adjusted to accommodate further devolution, and the operation of borrowing powers and cash reserve, fiscal rules, and independent institutions.”
Lord McCluskey
I am not sure whether I moved Amendment 79F originally, but if I did, I would want to withdraw it. The same applies to Amendments 79G, 81A and 82A. What I want to do is return to these matters on Report. For the benefit of my noble and learned friend Lord Hope of Craighead and others, it is possible to make those amendments known tonight. Officials are meeting at the end of this debate to discuss what is to go into the list of amendments for Report and I have put mine in by dint of simply asking them to repeat certain numbered ones which appeared in the Marshalled List. They accept that that is a method they can use to proceed.
The other point is a matter for the Committee. It appears quite silly in a way for the Committee to group Amendments 75 to 82, and then not allow those to be dealt with when the discussion on all these amendments is completed. We ought at that stage to be able to say, “I am not going to move Amendment 82A”, or whatever it may be, instead of which we have to go through the sequence. Therefore, I have been sitting here for approximately two and a half hours, waiting to stand up and say, “Not moved”. I am happy to say it now.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)
As the noble and learned Lord has spoken to the amendment, I think he will have to move it, after which it can be withdrawn.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
On the important point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, about having to table amendments again to maintain the sequence, and, indeed, in relation to the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, on the last group of amendments, perhaps the Minister will take this opportunity to clarify whether, when we come to Report, the order of consideration will be as in Committee; in other words, that Parts 2 and 3 will be taken at the end—I think next Monday is the day currently set down for that—and the other parts will be debated on Wednesday.
Lord Hope of Craighead
I am sorry to intervene on the same point but we have today debated Part 7, in which Clause 68 appears. I am not quite sure in which order it will appear on Report. That affects what we do in terms of tabling further amendments. Will it be in the first stage of Report or the second?
Lord Dunlop
This obviously has to be discussed through the usual channels but my understanding is that we will consider the Bill on Report in the same order that we have considered it in Committee.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
Does the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, now wish to withdraw his amendment?
Lord McCluskey
With the leave of the Committee, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
The Earl of Kinnoull
“(1) Sections 13 to 68 of this Act shall not come into force until such time as the relevant Secretary of State has laid before Parliament a statement to the effect that the Secretary of State is satisfied that the Scottish Government and any Scottish authorities to which power is devolved under this Act have the appropriate arrangements in place with which to exercise the relevant powers devolved under this Act.
(1A) Each section or subsection to which subsection (1) applies may be the subject of a statement under subsection (1), which once laid before Parliament would cause that section or subsection to come into force.
(1B) The provisions in subsections (3) to (7) are subject to the provision in subsection (1).
(2) Sections 1, 69 and 70 come into force on the day on which this Act is passed.”
The Earl of Kinnoull
My Lords, in moving Amendment 80, I wish to speak also to Amendment 81.
Amendment 80 is intended to do something very simple. The language is illustrative only. The concept is that a power to be transferred under the Bill would be so transferred only once the Secretary of State was satisfied that arrangements were in place for the transferred power to be successfully and smoothly operated in Scotland; and that, by implication, matters in the rest of the UK would continue at least as successfully and smoothly as before that transfer. This is fully consistent with the Smith commission agreement and would, of course, remove all temptation to go for a rushed and bodged job—a temptation that has so often been succumbed to in the process that has led us here today. It is quite simply a small source of comfort and protection for the ordinary citizens of Scotland and the rest of the UK who would be the innocent victims of such a rushed and bodged job. It is worth noting that I was anticipating that a similar discipline would be observed in Holyrood.
As I said in an earlier debate in Committee, the origin of this thinking came from a conversation that I had with an SNP MP, who said that he had anticipated teething troubles where the British Transport Police were concerned. Here, I assume that “teething troubles” means young women being thumped, drug smuggling having an easier ride and terrorists getting through. I dare say that the Minister will suggest that the amendment is not needed because responsible Ministers would act in such a manner anyway. However, I put it to the Committee that in the politically charged atmosphere that is the genesis and continuing history of this Bill, we have seen time and again actions taking place that would not occur under the simple discipline proposed in Amendment 80, and when taking into account the ordinary citizen’s point of view rather than the political one.
I further add that, as we move into a more devolved United Kingdom, with further devolution deals affecting other parts of the UK, this would be a help as a general principle. It would ensure that the risk of teething troubles is greatly reduced. It would mean that devolution is considered from the point of view of the ordinary citizen, not the politician.
Amendment 81 was debated at an earlier stage, and I know that the Crown Estate will come up again on Report, but would the Minister care to comment on whether the SNP has had put to it the various Crown Estate ideas which have been debated in this House? If so, what did it have to say about them? I beg to move.
The Earl of Dundee
My Lords, in supporting this amendment, I stress three aspects: its timeliness without leading to procrastination; between the two Parliaments and Governments its inference of co-operation; and within the United Kingdom, both in Scotland and elsewhere, its enhancement of good practice. It is clearly desirable to avoid teething troubles following powers which may have been transferred too quickly. In particular, it is indeed so concerning the British Transport Police, instanced just now by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull. Yet a timely transfer means just that, and if for good reason it is judged to take place at a certain moment rather than at another, then that transfer of powers has become neither prevaricated nor procrastinated. This is not least the case since the decision on when to transfer will have been made by Scottish Ministers and the Secretary of State together in a spirit of co-operation, thus jointly enhancing good practice by adopting a necessary method which benefits both Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
My Lords, I speak to Amendment 82, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord McAvoy, which allows some time for consultation about the implementation of Clause 50. That clause was a late addition to the Bill, which means there has not been the normal consultation with women’s groups, medics, lawyers, the health service or, indeed, ethicists and constitutional experts. Above all, there has been no discussion about the implication for the funding for abortion for women should they move between Scotland and England or Wales, should any differences emerge in the future between the laws on abortion either side of the border. We should consider the lessons of Northern Ireland before implementing this new provision.
Although the Smith commission reported that the parties favoured the devolution of abortion, regarding it as an anomalous health reservation, it recommended only that further serious consideration should be given to its devolution and a process established immediately to consider the matter further. However, that process has not happened and our amendment seeks to give the matter proper consideration before the clause is implemented. Indeed, because the Smith commission did not call for immediate devolution, the Government initially thought that an early change would pre-empt such discussions and there was, therefore, no reference to abortion in the original Bill. An amendment was tabled, but not voted on, in Committee in the Commons, by which stage women’s groups and the Scottish TUC began expressing their concerns, particularly that this could have a discriminatory impact on women in Scotland, just as in Northern Ireland.
The inclusion of the provision was announced by the Government on 14 October, with the amendment tabled on Report in the other place and with none of the debate that took place during the original devolution Bill. Looking back to 1998, there was quite a strong view that abortion, duly protected and regulated by law, was a human rights issue and not simply a medical or, indeed, a criminal matter. There were many voices of the view that a woman’s right to choose should be universal, not delimited by boundaries and borders.
It is this risk of cross-border differences, leading to women having to travel for an abortion, that concerns many, partly because it might undermine the notion of a UK citizenship, but also for the more prosaic but serious issue that there is a fairness dimension. Moving country for a termination is an option more open to the wealthy and well connected than to those without access to money, transport or friends in distant parts. We know the difficulties and trauma that such journeys involve for many Irish women. Indeed, because of the variation in law, some 5,000 Northern Irish women and 20,000 from the Republic of Ireland travelled to Great Britain for an abortion between 2010 and 2014. That is 12 Irish women crossing the Irish Sea every day.
This reflects the fact that when women are desperate for an abortion, whether as the result of rape, because of foetal abnormalities, because of incest or because the woman cannot handle a child due to her psychological state or her age—there are girls as young as 14 coming here for abortions—she will do whatever is needed. No border will prevent that. What is more, though a child in Northern Ireland can come over to be treated at Great Ormond Street on the NHS, her mother, needing an abortion, cannot get it on the NHS but has to go privately and pay, in addition to air fares. It is for these reasons that we need to consider how different rules in England and Scotland would be handled, should teenage girls have to make cross-border journeys to have the procedure, for example. For nearly 50 years, there have been the same rights across Great Britain, but this clause could alter that.
It is not that we anticipate any change in the Scottish law. Indeed, the First Minister said that her Government had no intention of changing the current law, but she cannot, of course, bind her successors. Given the demand for abortion to be devolved, there is surely the possibility of a change being made. It is better to think through the implications now rather than after any such decisions. Indeed we read suggestions that the new power will indeed be used to change Scottish law, with CARE for Scotland, a charity, saying that there should be a debate among MSPs about whether Scotland has the right laws. Lynn Murray of the Edinburgh branch of SPUC has said that devolving abortion would get people thinking about it and that it is time that we looked at it again, while the Scottish Secretary for Social Justice, Communities and Pensioners’ Rights, Alex Neil, has said that he personally favours reducing the 24-week limit.
That is of course a matter for the Scottish people, so we shall not resist or seek to remove Clause 50. However, we need time to consult on and possibly prepare for any impact that such a change could bring and how to respond, particularly as to whether women living in Scotland—be they English women, Welsh women or Scottish women—would be able to have an NHS-funded abortion, say in Newcastle or elsewhere, should they then fulfil our criteria for termination but not new criteria in Scotland. Whatever differences might emerge, some women will want or be forced to travel from England to Scotland or from Scotland to England to exercise their rights under one or other of the two laws. Amendment 82 allows for a 12-month consultation with relevant groups and representatives in Scotland and in the health service to ensure that the process is correct and to follow the wise advice of the Smith commission.
I turn to Amendments 80 and 81 in the names of the noble Earls, Lord Kinnoull and Lord Dundee. Amendment 80 provides that Clauses 13 to 68 would not come into force until the relevant Secretaries of State were satisfied that the Scottish Government had appropriate arrangements in place to exercise the relevant powers. That would mean that discretion remained with the UK Parliament on matters that will be devolved issues, undermining one of the most important principles of the devolution settlement. Your Lordships will not, therefore, be surprised that we oppose this amendment.
In a similar vein, Amendment 81 would delay the devolution of the Scottish Crown Estates until the Secretary of State had laid a report before Parliament regarding the Scottish Crown Estates commissioners and the arrangements to facilitate the transfer of assets. We do not consider it appropriate to delay the commencement of this clause. Furthermore, we understand that talks are taking place between officials on the transfers of assets and that those are still ongoing. It would perhaps be helpful if the Minister could indicate whether the issues included in the amendment are part of such discussions. We understand that the date for the transfer has yet to be decided or even much discussed. I do not know whether the Minister has any further update on this since the letter that he wrote to my noble friend Lord McAvoy on 12 February. We look forward to his comments on that.
Lord Hope of Craighead
My Lords, I add a word in support of the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter. It is remarkable that the provision in Clause 50 was not in the Scotland Bill of 1998. I am old enough to remember the debates that took place on that Bill and, as I recall, the provision was not part of the Bill for a very deliberate reason: it was regarded at that stage as undesirable that there should be any question of a difference in law between the laws of Scotland and those of England and Wales in relation to abortion. Things have moved on since then and the noble Baroness has made it clear that she is not opposing Clause 50. However, with great respect, the point that she makes is important given the way in which the clause has been introduced into the Bill at a late stage and the difficult and sensitive matters to which she drew attention in her speech. As I say, this was thought about carefully in the late 1990s when the original Scotland Bill was being considered and my recollection is that there was a deliberate decision to keep it out, for fear that it might give rise to undesirable consequences. That risk, which I think the noble Baroness was mentioning, makes her amendment one deserving of careful consideration.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, it certainly had not been my intention to take part but I do so given the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and the contribution of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, because I took part in the debates in the other place on the 1998 legislation. Indeed, I tabled an amendment to devolve abortion—the argument being that abortion law is a matter of health and the criminal law, both of which are themselves devolved. It therefore seemed anomalous that abortion should not be. The noble and learned Lord may correct me if I am wrong but I think that prior to 1967, the criminal law in relation to abortion was different in Scotland from what it was in England. So there have been many years, probably decades, in which there were differences on different sides of the border.
Having spoken for the devolution of abortion in debates in the other place in 1998, I recall that when the then Secretary of State spoke, there was a conscious decision that the Government’s position was that abortion should not be devolved. So the late Donald Dewar spoke very coherently, as your Lordships would expect, putting the case for a continued reservation of abortion. However, when we came out of the Chamber later he said to me, “I’m glad you did not read my speech during the debates on the 1978 legislation”. So before Committee on this Bill, I went back and looked at Donald Dewar’s speech when he advocated the devolution of abortion during the passage of the 1978 legislation. It made a compelling case for its devolution.
Lord Dunlop
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, for the amendments that they have tabled. I hope that the Committee will indulge me if, given this late hour, I am relatively brief in responding to them.
As has already been explained, Amendment 80 would require the Secretary of State to lay a statement before Parliament stating that the Scottish Government and Scottish authorities have made appropriate arrangements in relation to the exercise of the powers which have been devolved to them before parts of the Bill are commenced. The Government regard this amendment as against the spirit of how devolution operates. Moreover, this is an enabling Bill: constitutional legislation which transfers legislative competence to the Scottish Parliament and executive competence to the Scottish Ministers. There will be no change in law until such time as the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Ministers use the powers devolved to them. It will therefore be for them to decide whether they have made appropriate arrangements before doing so. I have discussed this point with the noble Earl—namely, how we ensure an effective transition. It requires the co-operation of the two Governments to discuss those issues. A number of mechanisms are in place to support a smooth transfer of powers and joint working. We have already debated how that works in relation to welfare and I expect similar joint working with regard to the Crown Estate.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
Before the Minister sits down, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, who I thank for his intervention, made clear that we were not at all questioning the Scottish Parliament’s ability to take this decision. I very much trust Scottish women to get their views heard strongly, although, as the Minister says, it has been officers, officials and Ministers having those debates so far, not the people who are mostly involved, who are of course women.
The question that I asked is one that we all need answers to, regarding funding: should there be a difference in whether the NHS funding will cover women who travel between the two jurisdictions when those jurisdictions have different laws on this? I do not expect the Minister to be able to answer that tonight but, given our experience in Northern Ireland, I think that this is a really big issue. If he cannot answer tonight, I hope that he will write to us before we reach this part of the Bill on Report.
The Earl of Kinnoull
I thank the Minister for what he said. I was rather ungracious earlier on: he spent a lot of time with me on this issue, and has gone a long way to giving lots of assurances about my essential concern, which is the private citizen as opposed to political expediency. I am grateful to him and I note that he has organised a drop-in on the issue of the British Transport Police tomorrow afternoon; I shall be dropping in for sure. That said, and putting down a marker that I feel that the interests of the private citizen as opposed to political expediency is something that this House should have regard to, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.