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Oral Answers to Questions
(13 years, 7 months ago)
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Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
1. What progress he has made on his proposals to reinvigorate the Commonwealth; and if he will make a statement.
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)
4. What progress he has made on his proposals to reinvigorate the Commonwealth; and if he will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Henry Bellingham)
There has been a visible uplift in our relationship with the Commonwealth, and we have been working with key partners to reinvigorate this unique organisation. In particular, we support the work of the eminent persons group, and I look forward to its recommendations on how to build up the role of the organisation ahead of the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in October.
Julian Smith
Following the stunning showcase of Britain last Friday, does the Minister agree that diplomats and ambassadors should have a massive spring in their step as they promote trade and investment in the UK, to the Commonwealth and beyond?
Mr Bellingham
I agree completely with my hon. Friend. Last Friday was a remarkable event; it was Britain at its very best. I was in Guinea at the time, which is not yet a member of the Commonwealth. I watched part of the royal wedding on France 24 on a television in the deepest and darkest part of Guinea, and there was huge interest from everyone who watched that programme.
Stephen Metcalfe
Does my hon. Friend agree that given that there is more than $3 trillion of trade each year inside the Commonwealth, the organisation should be recognised as a beacon of trade globally and UK companies of all sizes should be encouraged to seek out commercial opportunities within the Commonwealth?
Mr Bellingham
Since the election nearly a year ago, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and his ministerial team have been to more than 30 Commonwealth countries, of which I have visited seven. I assure my hon. Friend that on the agenda for those meetings were trade diplomacy and building up business and enterprise with those countries. The Commonwealth has a vital role in pursuing the Doha development agenda.
Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)
The Minister will know that the Commonwealth Secretariat, which works for more than a third of the world’s population, is run on a shoestring, yet we give billions to the European Union. Would our money not be better spent on maintaining our links with all the small countries and other Commonwealth countries, which have close links, deep loyalty and close family ties to the UK? In other words, should we not put the Commonwealth before the European Union?
Mr Bellingham
The Commonwealth does a first-class job, and it is exemplary in providing excellent value for money from its Secretariat here in London. I am delighted that the multilateral aid review by the Department for International Development concluded that the Commonwealth has a unique place in the international system and can play an even more significant role in development.
Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if the Commonwealth is to be reinvigorated and live up to its ideals, it needs to take a tougher line against member countries such as Sri Lanka, which committed war crimes against its Tamil civilian population according to the recent UN report? Should the Commonwealth not call for an independent international investigation into those war crimes, and suspend Sri Lanka from the Commonwealth unless it co-operates with such an investigation?
Mr Bellingham
We supported the setting up of the report, and it is essential that the Sri Lankan Government respond to it in a timely fashion.
Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the forthcoming centennial conference of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association provides an admirable platform for my right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary to expound this Government’s positive view of the Commonwealth and the CPA’s role in it?
Mr Bellingham
A resounding yes. An organisation that concentrated originally on Anglophone countries now attracts a keenness to join from countries outside the Anglophone sphere. Recently, Rwanda, a Francophone country, joined, as did Mozambique, a Lusophone country. Countries are queuing up to join this excellent organisation.
Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)
2. What structures there are for co-ordination of post-conflict reconstruction in Libya.
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
The post-conflict stabilisation and peace-building effort in Libya will be an international effort, co-ordinated by the United Nations in support of the Libyan people. The UK has undertaken early, cross-Whitehall planning, supported by the stabilisation unit, focusing on how we can support the international effort. Staff have been deployed to the region to provide stabilisation expertise on Libya and Arab partnership programmes.
Dan Jarvis
We must learn the lessons from Iraq and Afghanistan, where in my experience we sometimes contributed what we were able to deliver rather than what was needed. What conversations is the Secretary of State having with Cabinet colleagues to ensure that should Britain make a contribution to post-conflict reconstruction in Libya, it is as effective as possible?
Mr Hague
We are certainly having those conversations, and the hon. Gentleman is quite right to say that there are lessons to be learned from previous situations, including Iraq. The National Security Council is already working well on the matter, and of course my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development plays a very strong role on the subject. We are working with the UN already, and the UN is making good progress with stabilisation planning, but of course it is constrained in what it can physically do on the ground by the absence of peace and a political settlement in Libya. However, the planning is taking place and the UK is playing an important supporting role.
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the best first step towards the reconstruction of the country would be peace and a ceasefire? Will he therefore assure the House that all his efforts are pointed in that direction rather than just at regime change?
Mr Hague
Our efforts are devoted to implementing UN resolution 1973, which begins by calling for a ceasefire and an end to violence. Of course, that means a genuine ceasefire in which the regime not only really does cease fire but pulls back its forces from the areas where it is attacking the civilian population. It is in the search for that ceasefire and the protection of the civilian population that we are doing what we are doing in Libya.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Have any companies been approached or approached the Government in connection with any post-conflict reconstruction that might happen in Libya?
Mr Hague
As I said, the UN is leading on the matter, and it will spearhead the reconstruction effort. The Department for International Development is handling the details of the British contribution and support, but if we have more information about companies’ involvement, I will write to the hon. Gentleman about it.
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
5. What recent discussions he has had with his EU counterparts on the role of the European External Action Service; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)
I am in regular contact with my European counterparts about the work of the External Action Service, and with the EU High Representative, Baroness Ashton.
Stephen Gilbert
The Minister will be aware of the growing number of countries in Africa and the Pacific that do not have representation from either the UK or other European Union member states. Does he agree that the European External Action Service could provide representation to European nationals in those countries?
Mr Lidington
My hon. Friend talks about the EEAS’s role in consular representation. Of course, under the treaties, that competence is given explicitly to member states rather than to European institutions, but it is quite right that the EEAS should, in line with the treaties, support the work of EU member states, especially by signposting EU nationals who are unrepresented to embassies or high commissions of another member state where they can obtain representation.
Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
During the ratification of the Lisbon treaty, the right hon. Gentleman was opposed to the European External Action Service. Does he agree that recent experience in north Africa and elsewhere in the world demonstrates the need for positive co-operation with our European partners?
Mr Lidington
Neither I nor my party has ever quibbled with the idea that there should be effective European co-operation between member states. The test of whether the External Action Service is effective will be, in large measure, whether the High Representative and her staff can work effectively with member states’ Foreign Ministers, because only when member states reach a genuine common position does the High Representative have a mandate to act.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
7. What recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the Government's actions with respect to Libya; and if he will make a statement.
Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)
11. What recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the Government’s actions with respect to Libya; and if he will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
The UK continues to take a leading role in international efforts to protect civilians in Libya. The case for action remains compelling. Gaddafi’s regime persists in attacking its own people and wilfully killing its own civilian population. We have taken diplomatic action, including co-chairing the Libya contact group, and have played a key role in military action by NATO and provided more than £13 million of humanitarian aid to the Libyan people.
Jason McCartney
With the no-fly zone over Libya having been in place for more than a month now, will the Secretary of State join me in praising Royal Air Force air and ground crews for their role? What level of sorties is now taking place compared with when the action started?
Mr Hague
Yes, I certainly join in what my hon. Friend says about Royal Air Force air and ground crews, and of course the Royal Navy is also playing an important role in the vicinity of Libya. The number of sorties continues to mount, with hundreds over the weekend, and the UK continues to play a very strong role, including through strike sorties. I am pleased to say that more nations have been involved in those strike sorties, reflecting the continued increase in the tempo of the military activity and the strengthening of the international coalition.
Jack Lopresti
What are the outcomes so far of having British military officers on the ground in Libya to advise the Libyan rebels?
Mr Hague
These are early stages for the deployment to which my hon. Friend refers. What I can say is that we are confident that that military liaison advisory team is giving real and worthwhile assistance to the transitional national council for the objectives of helping with headquarters operations—how to organise headquarters and logistics—which I set out in my announcement. That is beginning to have some effect, but it is too early to give a definitive account.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Considering the killing of one of Gaddafi’s sons and his very, very young grandchildren, is it not the case that, despite the denials that have been made, the policy of NATO is now first and foremost regime change, and secondly to kill Gaddafi himself?
Mr Hague
We want Gaddafi to go, and virtually the whole world wants him to go—let us be in no doubt about that—but the incident to which the hon. Gentleman refers was an attack on a command and control location. NATO has increased the number of air strikes against the command and control functions of the Libyan regime, which in our view is wholly legitimate within the implementation of resolution 1973, and such attacks will continue.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
My right hon. Friend will remember that the support of the Arab League, and indeed that of virtually the whole House of Commons, was based on an understanding of the limitations contained in resolution 1973. Is he concerned that even the appearance of targeting Colonel Gaddafi may cause that support to be loosened?
Mr Hague
No, and there is no indication that that is leading to such a thing. In fact, I held discussions with the secretary-general of the Arab League, Mr Amr Moussa, in Cairo yesterday. Indeed, the restrictions in the resolution were the product of discussions between him and me on the day that the resolution was passed at the UN. He is supportive of how the resolution is being interpreted, and the Arab League continues to support our efforts. Arab nations will be strongly represented at the contact group meeting in Rome on Thursday, which I will attend. I hope I can reassure my right hon. and learned Friend on those points.
Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
I have listened with care to the Foreign Secretary’s answers. Those on both sides of the House are on record as saying that Libya’s future would be better served with Gaddafi gone.
The Government have stated that the UN mandate allows for the targeting of command and control operations that threaten civilians, but for clarity, will the Foreign Secretary tell the House whether he agrees that the resolution excludes the direct targeting of individuals, and will he publish an updated summary of the legal advice, so that the House can be fully informed on those matters?
Mr Hague
I do not think that it would be right to expand on what I have already said about targeting. Whether individuals are targeted depends, of course, on how they behave, and whether they are part of command and control centres, and on where they are at the time. I do not think it right to provide a running commentary on targeting, and nor is it militarily sensible to do so, and I therefore do not want to expand on my earlier answers.
Of course, the Government will consider requests made in the House in respect of the legal advice. We published very clearly a note on the legal advice at the time of the 21 March debate. However, again, I do not think that it would be right for Governments to start to publish legal advice on a regular basis every few days, but we will consider any requests that are made.
Mr Alexander
Let me see whether the Foreign Secretary can be a little more forthcoming on this question. I understand his earlier answer—he said that it was too early to give a definitive account of the work being undertaken by British military officers on the ground in Benghazi—but will he undertake to publish the terms of reference under which they are operating?
Mr Hague
They are operating on the basis that I set out in the House of Commons. Last week, I think, when the House resumed, I made a statement on these matters and set out their purposes in a few sentences. Those are their purposes; they have not gone with an entire book of terms of reference. They have gone as a military liaison and advisory team to give their expertise on the organisation of logistics, headquarters and so on, as set out last week. There is nothing further to expand upon.
Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)
In my right hon. Friend’s discussions with the Arab League, did he convey the message that although it rightly called for a no-fly zone over Libya, there is widespread disappointment over its silence on Bahrain and Syria?
Mr Hague
Certainly, I discussed the wider region. In particular, we had a detailed discussion about the situation in Syria. I absolutely condemn the Syrian regime’s actions over recent days, particular in relation to the city of Deraa and similar places that have been under attack by the Syrian army. I have urged the Arab League to take a strong line on this. Arab League Foreign Ministers are meeting on Thursday. After the contact group meeting in Rome, they will meet in Cairo, and they will discuss Syria then.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
8. What recent discussions he has had with his US counterpart on the situation in Libya.
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
I have regular discussions with Secretary Clinton on the situation in Libya, as on all other international issues. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has similar discussions with President Obama, and my right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary was in Washington last week. I look forward to seeing Secretary Clinton in Rome on Thursday.
Mr Jones
Has the Foreign Secretary had discussions with his American counterparts on the possibility of arms being smuggled to the Gaddafi regime from countries neighbouring Libya? Has there been an intelligence assessment yet about the possible influence of anti-western elements that might want to exacerbate the situation in Libya?
Mr Hague
Certainly, I have had discussions with Secretary Clinton and representatives of many other nations about the smuggling of arms or mercenaries into Libya by land routes. That is under discussion. I do not have anything to announce today about it, but clearly where such things are taking place, they are in breach of UN Security Council resolutions, so we reserve the right to take action. We have made representations to neighbouring countries in connection with these matters, and we will certainly continue to pursue them.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
What evidence can the Foreign Secretary disclose showing that the target of the missile strike that killed three of Gaddafi’s grandchildren was a command and control centre, and was being used for military purposes?
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
Will the Foreign Secretary confirm that, as it now appears to the whole world, the alliance has given up on a diplomatic solution, and is now involved in regime change and targeting individuals within the Libyan Government? Does he not think that at some point there will have to be a political solution led by the Arab League and the African Union? Does he not think it time to apply pressure in that direction, rather than continue the bombing of civilian targets?
Mr Hague
The hon. Gentleman refers to the bombing of civilian targets, but NATO and its allies have saved probably thousands of civilian lives from the intentions of regime forces that indiscriminately attack civilian targets. If we followed the course he recommended, civilian casualties would be immense indeed, because of what the Gaddafi regime would do to people across Libya. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the international coalition is very strong on, and supportive of, the actions we have taken. As I said, more countries have moved their aircraft into strike activity. Of course, however, there must be a political settlement, but Colonel Gaddafi can open the way to that by departing from power.
Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)
Are the Government still in complete agreement with the United States on the clear need for legal authority for any military action against individual targets, however loathsome we may find the individuals?
Mr Hague
We are in complete agreement about the meaning of legal advice on these matters, and about the need—I stress this again as I stressed it to the House last week—to stay clearly within the United Nations resolutions in order to maintain the legal, moral and international support we have for these actions. So there is no disagreement between the UK and the United States. However, I do not think it is right to speculate about individual targets.
Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)
9. What recent discussions he has had with the Palestinian Authority to encourage the resumption of peace negotiations.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt)
My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary discussed the peace process and the need to return to direct negotiations with Palestinian President Abbas during his recent visit to London. We made it clear that we believe that only a negotiated settlement will secure a sovereign, viable and contiguous Palestinian state, living in peace and security next to a safe, secure and recognised Israel.
Rosie Cooper
Is the Minister concerned about Iranian influence in Hamas-controlled Gaza, and in Syria and Lebanon?
Alistair Burt
Briefly, yes. It remains our view, from all the available evidence, that the Iranian regime is interested in instability and disrupting the efforts of nations to build the necessary security and confidence between themselves that we all wish to see. So far, Iranian influence has rarely proved to be advantageous to the world community, but we live in hope.
Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)
While the cause of peace will have been assisted by the Palestinian Authority’s response to the weekend’s news from Pakistan, does my hon. Friend share my concern about the reported comments of the leader of Hamas in condemning the operation?
Alistair Burt
Yes, indeed. The events of the weekend were an opportunity for the world community to come together and condemn those who had united Christian, Jew and Muslim against their murdering misery over the years. It is disappointing that Hamas did not take the opportunity to do that, as so many others did.
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
Is the Minister aware that at 12.30 pm last Friday at Nabi Salih on the west bank, a peaceful demonstration against illegal settlements by Palestinians and Israelis, including women and children, was attacked by the Israeli army, which hurled hundreds of gas bombs and sound grenades at them, fired at them with rubber bullets and had a vehicle that hurled sewage at them? Will he condemn this kind of savagery and make it clear to the Israelis that it is impossible to have peace if Israeli troops behave in this abominable way?
Alistair Burt
I am not aware of the particular incident that the right hon. Gentleman raises, but there is no doubt that in the past, where there have been incidents involving people peacefully protesting—as we believe it is right to do—against settlements that we consider to be illegal, we have condemned such action, and we will continue to do so. This case only goes to illustrate, however, the need for both sides to return to negotiations based on parameters, because the spiral of violence—particularly what we have seen recently on both sides—is just leading to more misery before a settlement can be concluded.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Following what has just been said, and given Hamas’s commiseration on the death of Osama bin Laden as a holy warrior, will the Government confirm that they will have no direct or indirect talks with Hamas until it renounces terror and violence, recognises the state of Israel and abides by previous diplomatic agreements?
Alistair Burt
We have no plans to change our position on Hamas. The Quartet principles that my hon. Friend sets out remain the benchmark towards which Hamas should move—that is, a rejection of violence, a recognition of the state of Israel and an acceptance of previous agreements.
Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op)
There is real concern about the continuing lack of progress towards peace between the Palestinians and the Israelis. What is the Government’s assessment of the impact of last week’s reconciliation talks between Fatah and Hamas on the prospects of a peaceful transition to a two-state solution, and what role do they see for the European Union in this crucial period?
Alistair Burt
It is difficult to see the impact at this stage, because not all the details are available. It must always have been the case that at some stage there must be Palestinian unity, because there cannot be a sensible two-state solution unless all parts of what is deemed to be Palestine are involved. Therefore, the fact that Fatah and Hamas have come to some agreement is something that might provide a step forward. However, it is crucial that that should lead to progress and to both Palestinian wings continuing to reject violence, continuing with the peace process and recognising the state of Israel. As yet, Hamas has not made any move in that direction. We hope that the reconciliation will eventually lead to progress towards a democratic Palestinian state that will indeed reject violence and wish to live in peace and security with its neighbour, but we must judge it by its actions.
Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con)
10. What recent reports he has received on the condition of the Hazara population in Pakistan; and if he will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt)
The Hazara community in Balochistan has been the subject of sectarian terrorist attacks for some years, although they lessened to some degree in 2010. We remain concerned, however, about the protection of minority communities and minority rights in Pakistan, and about the general instability in the Balochistan region.
Mark Lancaster
I am grateful to the Minister for that answer, and indeed for his meeting with members of the Hazara community in Milton Keynes recently. Is he prepared to get a representative of our high commission in Islamabad to meet the Hazara leaders in Pakistan, to ensure that their voice is heard and that the UK is well placed to end this persecution?
Alistair Burt
My hon. Friend is absolutely right; we keep an eye on this matter, and we should do so. Last year, representatives from our high commission met Syed Nasir Ali Shah, a member of the Parliamentary Assembly for Quetta, and Jan Ali Changezi, who is also a Parliamentary Assembly member and the Minister for Quality Education in Balochistan. We take these issues very seriously, and we are aware of concerns that have been expressed by the community here and in Pakistan. We will continue to raise these issues in support of minority communities. We hope that the inter-faith committees that might be set up by the Pakistan Government will include Hazara representation.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
12. What reports he has received on the situation in Japan following the recent earthquake and tsunami; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Jeremy Browne)
The earthquake and tsunami of 11 March have had a devastating impact on Japan. As of 27 April, 14,508 people have been confirmed dead, and 11,452 are still missing. There are no confirmed UK casualties. The UK has mobilised various resources to help the Japanese Government. We have sent a search and rescue team and provided other forms of support to the Japanese Government, including nuclear assistance. We receive regular reports from the Japanese authorities regarding ongoing work to make safe the Fukushima nuclear plant, and we are ready to offer further technical assistance as required.
Charlie Elphicke
Japan is a major friend, ally and trading partner of the UK, and it is right that we should be there for a friend in need. Will the Minister tell us what help is being given to assist its economic recovery, and what steps are being taken to help following the nuclear disaster?
Mr Browne
I completely agree with my hon. Friend’s assertion about the deep friendship between the United Kingdom and Japan. We have expressed that friendship and it has been evident in our actions. Our economies are intertwined, but we are also leading the debate within the European Union on a free trade agreement between the EU and Japan.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
Has the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority in the UK been asked to supply any expertise on the decommissioning of contaminated water at the plant? I understand that that is one of the more considerable problems that the Japanese authorities are facing.
Mr Browne
We have made it clear to the Japanese from the outset that we are willing to offer any expertise that might benefit them, but it is worth reminding the House that Japan is an extremely sophisticated country with an extremely developed economy and highly reputable scientists. It is therefore able to make many of those decisions for itself.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
14. What recent progress he has made in strengthening bilateral relations with India; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Jeremy Browne)
There has been significant progress on building the bilateral relationship with India since the Prime Minister’s visit to India in July 2010, with increased co-operation across the full scope of activities.
Helen Goodman
Given the desirability for the UK and India of increasing the trade between the two countries, will the Minister tell the House what progress has been made on the negotiations for an EU trade agreement?
Mr Browne
I completely share the hon. Lady’s objectives. India is rising in importance, and that is most evident economically. Insufficient progress has been made, but progress is still being made and Britain is at the forefront of trying to conclude the negotiations as soon as possible.
Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con)
Does the Minister know of any plans for the Indian Prime Minister to reciprocate, in the light of our Prime Minister’s successful visit to India last July?
Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)
We welcome any progress made on the EU free trade agreement with India. However, as recent events have highlighted, a trade policy is no substitute for a broader foreign policy. Will the Minister therefore tell us what other foreign policy priorities the Government are pursuing in respect of our relationship with India?
Mr Browne
I accept that the relationship between our two countries goes beyond economics, although that is increasingly important. We share historical links; we share interests in global security; we share democratic and institutional relations; we share cultural ties; we share sporting links; and I understand that you, Mr Speaker, are expected to visit India later this year further to strengthen relations between our two countries.
Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)
16. What recent assessment he has made of the security situation in the middle east; and if he will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
It is vital to acknowledge that no true stability can result from the repression of legitimate demands for political participation and the rule of law. Nothing can justify the use of lethal force against peaceful demonstrators. We are supporting peaceful reform in Tunisia and Egypt, just as we are opposing violence elsewhere and urging all Governments in the region to respond positively to popular calls for better governance.
Nadhim Zahawi
The security of the middle east depends on many factors, one of which is a responsible but independent media. With that in mind, I was shocked to see that, throughout yesterday, al-Jazeera’s Arabic channel, which broadcasts “Al-Jazeera English Live” in this country, allowed messages of hate, violence and revenge against the west to be posted on its coverage. Does the Foreign Secretary agree that broadcasting such messages is highly irresponsible and, indeed, illegal?
Mr Hague
I did not see the reports to which my hon. Friend refers. Clearly, he has seen reports that he found very disturbing and I hope that he will take those up directly with al-Jazeera. Al-Jazeera now broadcasts a very wide variety of material, but I hope that it will in no way encourage hate or the commissioning of crimes; we must be vigilant against that.
Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)
Further to an earlier answer, what assessment has the Foreign Secretary made of the internal politics of Hamas and of whether there are conflicting voices—on the one hand about building a technocratic Government and conducting elections on a unity basis and, on the other hand, supporting and praising bin Laden?
Mr Hague
It would be surprising if there were not differing voices and internal tensions on these subjects. Clearly, many issues are moving in the middle east, with the changed situation in Egypt and pressure on the Syrian Government. Hamas has been encouraged by the new Government in Egypt to enter into the political reconciliation with Fatah, as discussed earlier. I believe that it might also feel less secure in its position in Syria. These are forces now at work on Hamas, and it is important in the light of the changes in the middle east that, as the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) has been saying, it makes concrete movement towards acceptance of Quartet principles, which the whole world looks to it to respect.
Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)
17. What discussions his Department has had with the UN special rapporteur on torture on the case of Bradley Manning.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt)
We are aware of discussions that the UN special reporter on torture, Juan Mendez, has had with the United States Government, but the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has not had any discussions with him on the case of Bradley Manning.
Ann Clwyd
I have raised the case of Bradley Manning on several occasions in this Chamber and outside it. Mrs Susan Manning, who is Bradley Manning’s mother, wrote to the Foreign Secretary three weeks ago. She has not yet had a reply. She asked for consular assistance and for somebody to visit her son in the very bad conditions in which he is being held. She also asked for any help that could be given, in Washington and elsewhere, to the family if they so request it. At the very least, Mrs Manning, who is very concerned by the situation of her son, should have had the courtesy of a reply.
Alistair Burt
The right hon. Lady knows from her Adjournment debate on precisely this subject that Bradley Manning does not consider himself a UK citizen and his lawyer has made it very clear that he does not consider that he has any contact with this country. We cannot therefore discuss his nationality and we are limited in both what we can say and what we can do in this case. Bradley Manning’s lawyer is well aware of the circumstances and of the United Kingdom Government's position.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
18. What recent discussions he has had with his US counterpart on the situation in Egypt.
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
I am in regular contact with Secretary Clinton about the whole situation in the middle east. I met her most recently at the NATO Foreign Ministers’ meeting in Berlin on 15 April.
Clive Efford
It is feared in some quarters that the deal brokered in Cairo between Hamas and Fatah is influencing America’s attitude to the new regime there. Has the Foreign Secretary had an opportunity to hold any discussions about that with his American counterpart? In particular, has he discussed the future of aid for Egypt and of assistance with the delivery of free and fair elections in the near future?
Mr Hague
I believe the United States to be supportive of what the interim Government are doing in Egypt. Everything that I saw yesterday suggested that we should be supportive, as did the meetings that I had with Field Marshal Tantawi and the new Prime Minister and Foreign Minister of Egypt. They are trying to bring about a transition to democratic government in Egypt, but they face formidable economic problems, which I think will pose the most difficult challenge of all during the coming year or two. It will be very important for western nations to engage with the Government of Egypt and work together on their economic future, and I have received no indication that the United States is planning to do anything other than that.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
The Foreign Secretary has hit on the issue of the change and why it came about. That change swept across the whole of the middle east, but the economy and jobs were a key issue in Egypt in particular. What steps has the Foreign Secretary taken, and what discussions has he had with his United States counterparts, to ensure that something constructive will happen, and will happen soon?
Mr Hague
As I have said, we discuss these issues with the United States all the time, and President Obama will be coming to this country in a few weeks. The future of change in the middle east and how we should support that change—and Egypt is at the heart of that, for the success of the change there will be a key determinant of what happens in other countries—will be at the forefront of our discussions with President Obama and, indeed, the discussions at the G8 summit which will follow his visit.
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
19. What recent steps he has taken to ensure that diamond extraction standards in Zimbabwe comply with the monitoring standards under the Kimberley process.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Henry Bellingham)
The FCO hosted an EU Kimberley process planning meeting ahead of the Kimberley process meeting in Dubai on 14 April. We are working with the EU to push for a robust agreement to ensure Zimbabwean compliance with the Kimberley process, and that includes strengthening the role of the Kimberley process monitor. The good news is that we have helped to secure broad international support for a new monitoring team led by Mark van Bockstael.
Oliver Colvile
Does my hon. Friend agree that the proceeds of the diamonds should go to the Zimbabwean treasury? What pressure can be placed on the Zimbabwean Government to ensure that civil society is included in the decision-making process?
Mr Bellingham
The Marange diamond proceeds have the potential to bring literally hundreds of United States dollars into the Zimbabwe exchequer. Last year $38 million—the first tranche—did get through, but I am disturbed by reports that hard-line elements are benefiting from the Marange mine. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend: it is essential for us to have a strong civil society involvement, and that is why the appointment of a new civil society focal point will play such a vital role in increasing transparency.
Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)
Is the Minister frustrated by the hampering of our negotiations on Zimbabwe diamonds as a result of our having to reach agreement through the sluggish EU? Does he agree that it would be better for us to adopt a more robust position on our own terms?
Mr Bellingham
It is worth bearing in mind that since the start of the Kimberley process, roughly 99% of the world trade in rough diamonds is now Kimberley-compliant. That is a huge improvement on the previous position. As for my hon. Friend’s point about the EU, he has made a very interesting suggestion, and I will certainly examine it.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
20. What recent assessment he has made of the state of bilateral relations between the UK and Turkey; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)
We have excellent co-operation with Turkey on a wide range of issues, as was reaffirmed in the strategic partnership signed last July by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and Prime Minister Erdogan.
David Rutley
Given Turkey’s important role in helping the United Kingdom foster stronger relations with Arab nations at this time of instability, what steps is my right hon. Friend taking to engage Turkey further both in providing increased humanitarian aid in Libya to those who need it and in helping to enforce the arms embargo against the Gaddafi regime?
Mr Lidington
Turkey has already been active on both counts. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is in frequent contact with Foreign Minister Davutoglu about how to strengthen our co-operation both in supplying effective humanitarian aid to people in need inside Libya and in planning for the reconstruction of that country in the future.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
Britain is Turkey’s best friend in the European Union, yet relations between the EU and Turkey continue to be bedevilled by the issue of Cyprus. What efforts is the right hon. Gentleman making to persuade both Cyprus and Turkey that a better relationship between the two of them will help the reunification of the island and Turkey’s membership of the EU?
Mr Lidington
The urgent need for progress towards a settlement in Cyprus is on the agenda at every conversation that either I or my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary have with both our Turkish and Cypriot counterparts. I am sure that that will continue to be the case, and I hope that once the forthcoming Cypriot and then the Turkish elections are over, all parties concerned will redouble their efforts to reach the solution that all communities in Cyprus need to see.
Mr Speaker
Order. I am sorry, but in the circumstances the Foreign Secretary should first give a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
Yesterday I visited Cairo to underline the United Kingdom’s support for what the people of Egypt have achieved in the last three months and for their democratic and peaceful future. Across the middle east, this Government will continue to offer their support to ensure that the countries of the region can meet their people’s legitimate aspirations and that events do not result in the suppression of those aspirations, as we are seeing in countries such as Syria.
Fiona Bruce
I thank the Minister for his response with regard to the treatment of minorities such as the Hazara population in Pakistan. What can also be done to encourage and support the protection of the rights of minorities more widely in Pakistan, such as Hindus, Christians and women, in the light of accounts of human rights violations, such as forced conversion, forced marriage, beatings, rape, false imprisonment and even murder?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt)
My hon. Friend makes serious points about the concerns over human rights in Pakistan. They are points that the United Kingdom Government take up, which have of course been more sharply in focus in recent weeks given, sadly, the murder of Shahbaz Bhatti, the Christian who was Minister for minorities in Pakistan, who was known to a number of us in this House. We are all concerned about the circumstances there, but the Government are working with us and we will continue to support efforts to protect all minorities in Pakistan from the issues that my hon. Friend raised.
Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
The House is aware that the Prime Minister will shortly give a statement on the death of Osama bin Laden, but I hope the Foreign Secretary will agree that the success of the Arab spring could yet be an even more significant blow to al-Qaeda. Given that, will he update us on the work being done to stop the repression of demonstrators in Syria? In particular, when will the European Union act, and will the Foreign Secretary give an undertaking to work to ensure that Syria does not take Libya’s vacated place on the UN Human Rights Council?
Mr Hague
I fully agree with the right hon. Gentleman. Indeed, this is a moment for people across the middle east to reflect that in so many countries it has been possible to bring about peaceful and democratic change—that may yet happen in more countries—and that the violent philosophy of al-Qaeda that only violence and death can bring about change is bankrupt and should increasingly be vanquished across the middle east. That does, indeed, bring us to Syria. The UK is at the forefront of pressing for action by the European Union. At the end of last week, we secured agreement on an arms embargo and the revocation of the association agreement that had been put in place with Syria. We are now working with our European partners on targeted sanctions such as asset freezes and travel bans—I will be discussing those further with the French Foreign Minister this evening—and we are also highly active at the United Nations Security Council on this issue, although the right hon. Gentleman will understand that Syria is a difficult issue at the UN Security Council and that some of the members, including permanent members, require a good deal of convincing that the United Nations should be taking any action.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
T4. British business continues to be bogged down by regulation and directives from Brussels. What plans does the Minister for Europe have to work with ministerial colleagues to challenge that over the coming months?
The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)
My hon. Friend is right in his analysis. Securing less costly, less burdensome regulation on European businesses, especially small and medium-sized enterprises, is a priority in our engagement with our European counterparts for every Minister in this Government, from the Prime Minister downwards. I am delighted to be able to assure my hon. Friend that the Prime Minister’s initiative in that respect is gaining increasing support from other Heads of Government across the European Union.
Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)
T3. Described as the single greatest advertisement for Britain, the value of the BBC World Service cannot be underestimated, especially given that Syrian demonstrators hold up placards with “Thank you BBC” on them. Will the Minister therefore consider making the appropriate representations to stop the disproportionate reduction in the BBC World Service output before it is too late?
Mr Hague
Nothing disproportionate has happened or will happen to the BBC World Service. The reduction in its spending between 2007 and 2014, the period for which the Foreign Office is under spending restraint, will be exactly the same as the proportionate reduction in the rest of the Foreign Office family and a good deal less than that for the British Council. It is important that we save money across the public sector—we have had to do so given the behaviour of the previous Government—but the World Service has a secure future, as does the Arabic service. Transferring the BBC World Service into the licence fee funding arrangement means that it has a secure future for the long term.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
T5. Piracy off the west coast of Africa, particularly the coast of Somalia, continues to grow. It represents a clear threat to the lives of seafarers and costs international commerce billions of pounds. What steps does the Minister envisage taking, with the Government of Somalia, to bring to an end this dangerous form of robbery?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Henry Bellingham)
Obviously, a long-term solution to the problem of piracy lies on the land, which is why we are working so hard to provide a stable Somalia. We have taken the lead in the international contact group on piracy, and last year we provided £6 million in support of regional prosecution and prisons capacity and some new equipment for the improvement of the Seychelles coastguard. We are taking the lead, and I hope that other countries follow it.
Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)
T8. Let us be clear about the impact of the spending cuts on the Arabic division of the BBC World Service. In one month it will be forced to reduce its daily output of live TV news from 15 hours to seven and of live radio from 12 hours to seven, and it will also lose 44 of its Arabic staff. In the light of the recent monumental events across the Arab world and the integral role of the BBC World Service as a provider of impartial information, will the Foreign Secretary act now to save this valuable service?
Mr Hague
The answer really is the same as the one I gave a few moments ago: we have to operate within all the spending constraints involved in repairing the budgetary catastrophe left to us after last year’s general election. Unfortunately, that has consequences for the World Service too, but the Arabic service, along with so many other services of the World Service, will not just be secure for the future; it can be developed further for the future, along with BBC World, which is also of importance in the Arab world, because we have secured its long-term future within the BBC licence fee.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
T6. The recent report to the Secretary-General of the United Nations made it clear that war crimes had been committed in Sri Lanka by both the Tamil Tigers and the armed forces of the Government of Sri Lanka. What action do our Government propose to take in the UN and the Commonwealth to make sure that Sri Lanka, a member of the Commonwealth, upholds the rule of law and that war crimes are punished?
Mr Hague
This is a vital subject and it is crucial for the long-term health of Sri Lanka that these problems are addressed as a part of reconciliation for the long-term future and in bringing different communities together in Sri Lanka. Our Government strongly supported the commissioning of the report by the Secretary-General. We are considering that report carefully, but in the meantime we look to the Government of Sri Lanka to respond to it in detail and make it clear how they intend to proceed.
Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
T10. In the light of the second bombing of the gas pipelines from Egypt to Israel and Jordan, what conversations has the right hon. Gentleman had with the new regime in Egypt to stress the importance of the 30-year peace treaty between Israel and Egypt?
Mr Hague
The hon. Gentleman is quite right—of course that is important. I had lengthy discussions yesterday with the Prime Minister and Foreign Minister of Egypt. Regional peace and the future of the middle east peace process are absolutely integral to this matter, so they formed an important part of our discussions. As part of that, we look to Egypt to respect that treaty with Israel, and it is in no doubt whatever about our position on that.
Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con)
T7. Will the Minister join me in commending the work of FCO Services for both the UK and international Governments and will he confirm that there are no plans to move the organisation from Hanslope park in Milton Keynes?
Mr Bellingham
I pay full tribute to FCO Services and all its staff at Hanslope park in my hon. Friend’s constituency. They are highly professional and it is an impressive trading fund, with a profit for the last financial year that will exceed its £4 million target. It now gets a quarter of its income from other Government Departments and is also bidding for contracts overseas, so it is one of the jewels in the FCO crown.
Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)
The situation in Syria has naturally been overshadowed by events in Libya and almost totally by the news from Pakistan yesterday. Clearly the deaths of so many people and the actions of the authorities in Damascus have been gross and unacceptable. Will the Secretary of State tell the House what pressure he has been able to bring to bear on those who have a voice in Damascus—those in the Arab League, for example, and, importantly, our good friend Turkey?
Mr Hague
Yes, this is a very important subject. We have of course made our own views clear directly to the Syrian Government. Last Wednesday evening I called the Syrian Foreign Minister and communicated directly to him the views of the United Kingdom about the unacceptable violence against protestors. I urged the Syrian authorities to go down the route of reform rather than repression, but, sadly, they are increasingly taking the route of repression. The hon. Gentleman is right that Turkey plays an important role and there have been Turkish representatives in Damascus over the past week, again urging reform. As I mentioned earlier, I took up the subject with the Arab League in Cairo yesterday to urge it to use its best efforts to encourage Syria down the right path.
Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)
T9. Two weeks ago, Bosnia’s Serb Parliament agreed to a referendum questioning the legitimacy of the Bosnia and Herzegovina state court, which deals with war crimes. Does the Minister agree that that potentially undermines the Dayton peace accord and could set off the worst crisis in the 16 years since the war finished? What is he doing with our allies to ensure the peace and stability that has been achieved so far will not now be squandered?
Mr Lidington
My hon. Friend is right that that is a potential challenge to the Dayton accord and it is not something that the British Government regard as acceptable. We are emphasising to our European partners and other members of the international community that we all need to work to strengthen the statehood of Bosnia and the integration of its communities within a single country, and we should be prepared, if needs be, to invoke the Bonn powers to make it clear that what the Republika Srpska is now proposing is simply not acceptable.
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
In his response to the Chairman of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs about the Arab League’s response in Syria and Bahrain, the Foreign Secretary stressed the importance of consistency in our response to the Arab spring. How is it adequate simply to urge dialogue on both sides in Bahrain, given the Bahraini Government’s outrageous and continuing human rights abuses?
Mr Hague
That is not the only thing that we are doing. Of course, we have made our protests clear based on credible reports—and there are credible reports—of human rights abuses over the Easter period. I also spoke to the Bahraini Foreign Minister, Sheikh Khalid al-Khalifa, and made our protests. In Bahrain, there is still hope of dialogue and the situation is therefore different from some of the others in the middle east. Serious efforts at dialogue have been made by some of those who are now in authority, so we call again on them—on the ruling family and ruling group in Bahrain and on opposition groups—to enter into such a dialogue, which is the only viable way to a future for Bahrain.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
Gaddafi’s forces have been bombarding Misrata’s port, preventing essential food and medical supplies from reaching the population for four days now. Elsewhere in Libya, aid convoys have been intercepted and attacked, and supplies stolen. Does the Foreign Secretary agree that creating safe corridors for humanitarian aid is within the terms of the United Nations Security Council resolution 1973 in order to protect civilians? What will the coalition do to make sure that vital aid gets through to the people who so desperately need it?
Mr Hague
We have done a great deal to make sure that aid gets through, to take people out of Misrata, including vulnerable people such as migrants who have been concentrated near the port, and to get humanitarian aid in. However, my hon. Friend is right that that has been more difficult in recent days, again because of the barbaric actions of the Gaddafi regime. It is much preferable, of course, to take in humanitarian aid separately from military activity, for very good reasons which she will fully understand, but if that becomes impossible we will have to consider other ways.
Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)
Returning to the question of Hamas, does the Foreign Secretary agree that the reported comments of Ismail Haniya yesterday were appalling and are already being seized on by enemies of peace on both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian divide? Does he agree that we must not be deflected from the cause of peace but must recognise the potential for unity between Fatah and Hamas and recognise that peace is ultimately built between enemies, not with friends?
Mr Hague
Peace is indeed built between enemies rather than friends, but as the hon. Gentleman rightly points out, that cause would be assisted if it were possible to show across many different divides in the world a good deal of unity about what happened on Sunday night and about the removal from the scene of the author of some of the world’s greatest terrorist acts. It would have been better for Hamas to have joined in the welcome for that, as that would have been a boost in itself to the peace process.
Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
Judge Goldstone recently retracted the central finding of his UN report that Israel had intentionally targeted Palestinian civilians. What steps is the Secretary of State taking to inform members of the UN General Assembly of Judge Goldstone’s reconsideration of his report and admission about his inaccurate conclusion?
Alistair Burt
We know that Judge Goldstone would have much preferred the Israeli authorities to have co-operated with his report, which would have given it a different flavour. His comments are extremely important, but it is equally important to make sure that an investigation on both sides into the incidents, as he recommended, is done. He was satisfied that the Israeli Government had done their best to fulfil that commitment, but Hamas, we are afraid, has done nothing at all to fulfil that commitment.
Mr Speaker
Order. Points of order come after statements. I shall await the right hon. Lady’s point of order with interest and anticipation.
Counter-terrorism
(13 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
The death of Osama bin Laden will have important consequences for the security of our people at home and abroad and for our foreign policy, including our partnership with Pakistan, our military action in Afghanistan and the wider fight against terrorism across the world. Last night, I chaired a meeting of Cobra to begin to address some of these issues, the National Security Council has met this morning and I wanted to come to the House this afternoon to take the first opportunity to address these consequences directly and to answer hon. Members’ questions.
At 3 am yesterday I received a call from President Obama. He informed me that US special forces had successfully mounted a targeted operation against a compound in Abbottabad, in Pakistan. Osama bin Laden had been killed along with four others—bin Laden’s son, two others linked to him and a female member of his family entourage. There was a ferocious firefight and a US helicopter had to be destroyed but there was no loss of American life. I am sure the whole House will join me in congratulating President Obama and in praising the courage and skill of the American special forces who carried out this operation. It is a strike at the heart of international terrorism and a great achievement for America and for all who have joined in the long struggle to defeat al-Qaeda.
We should remember today in particular the brave British servicemen and women who have given their lives in the fight against terrorism across the world, and we should pay tribute especially to those British forces who played their part over the past decade in the hunt for bin Laden. He was the man who was responsible for 9/11, which was not only an horrific killing of Americans, but remains to this day the largest loss of British life in any terrorist attack. He was a man who inspired further atrocities, including those in Bali, Madrid, Istanbul and, of course, here in London on 7/7. He was, let us remember, a man who posed as a leader of Muslims, but was actually a mass murderer of Muslims all over the world. Indeed, he killed more Muslims than people of any other faith.
Nothing will bring back the loved ones who have been lost, and of course there is no punishment at our disposal that can remotely fit the many appalling crimes for which bin Laden was responsible, but I hope that at least for the victims’ families there is now some sense of justice being served, as a long dark chapter in their lives is finally closed. As the head of a family group for United Airlines flight 93, put it, we are
“raised, obviously, never to hope for someone’s death”,
but we are
“willing to make an exception in this case...He was evil personified, and our world is a better place without him.”
Britain was with America from the first day of the struggle to defeat al-Qaeda. Our resolve today should be as strong as it was then. There can be no impunity and no safe refuge for those who kill in the name of this poisonous ideology.
Our first focus should be our own security. Although bin Laden is gone, the threat of al-Qaeda remains. Clearly there is a risk that al-Qaeda and its affiliates in places such as Yemen and the Maghreb will want to demonstrate that they are able to operate effectively, and of course there is always the risk of a radicalised individual acting alone—a so-called lone-wolf attack. So we must be more vigilant than ever, and we must maintain that vigilance for some time to come.
The terrorist threat level in the UK is already at severe, which is as high as it can go without intelligence of a specific threat. We will keep that threat level under review, working closely with the intelligence agencies and the police. In terms of people travelling overseas, we have updated our advice and encourage British nationals to monitor the media carefully for local reactions, to remain vigilant, to exercise caution in public places and to avoid demonstrations. We have ordered our embassies across the world to review their security.
Let me turn next to Pakistan. The fact that bin Laden was living in a large house in a populated area suggests that he must have had an extensive support network in Pakistan. We do not currently know the extent of that network, so it is right that we ask searching questions about it, and we will. But let us start with what we do know. Pakistan has suffered more from terrorism than any other country in the world. As both President Zardari and Prime Minister Gilani said to me when I spoke to them yesterday, as many as 30,000 innocent civilians have been killed in Pakistan, and more Pakistani soldiers and security forces have died fighting extremism than international forces killed in Afghanistan.
Osama bin Laden was an enemy of Pakistan. He had declared war against the Pakistani people and he had ordered attacks against them. President Obama said in his statement that
“counterterrorism cooperation with Pakistan helped lead us to bin Laden and the compound where he was hiding.”
Continued co-operation will be just as important in the days ahead.
I believe it is in Britain’s national interest to recognise that with Pakistan we share the same struggle against terrorism. That is why we will continue to work with our Pakistani counterparts on intelligence gathering, tracing plots and taking action to stop them. It is why we will continue to honour our aid promises, including our support for education as a critical way of helping the next generation of Pakistanis to turn their back on extremism. Above all, it is why we were one of the founder members of the Friends of Democratic Pakistan, because I believe it is by working with the democrats in that country that we can make sure the whole country shares the same determination to fight terror and terrorism.
I also spoke yesterday to President Karzai in Afghanistan. We both agreed that the death of bin Laden provides a new opportunity for Afghanistan and Pakistan to work together in order to achieve stability on both sides of the border. Our strategy towards Afghanistan is straightforward and has not changed. We want an Afghanistan capable of looking after its own security without the help of foreign forces. We should take this opportunity to send a clear message to the Taliban: now is the time to separate themselves from al-Qaeda and participate in a peaceful political process.
The myth of bin Laden was that of a freedom fighter, living in austerity and risking his life for the cause as he moved around in the hills and mountainous caverns of the tribal areas. The reality of Bin Laden was very different: a man who encouraged others to make the ultimate sacrifice while he himself hid in the comfort of a large, expensive villa in Pakistan, experiencing none of the hardship he expected his supporters to endure.
Finally, let me briefly update the House on Libya. In recent weeks we have stepped up our air campaign to protect the civilian population. Every element of Gaddafi’s war machine has been degraded. Over the last few days alone, NATO aircraft have struck 35 targets, including tanks and armoured personnel carriers, as well as bunkers and ammunition storage facilities. We have also made strikes against his command and control centres, which direct his operations against civilians. Over the weekend, there were reports that in one of those strikes Colonel Gaddafi’s son, Saif al-Arab Gaddafi, was killed. Let me be clear that all the targets chosen were clearly within the boundaries set by UN resolutions 1970 and 1973. These resolutions permit all necessary measures to protect civilian life, including attacks on command and control bases.
This weekend also saw attacks on the British and Italian embassies. We utterly deplore this. The Gaddafi regime is in clear breach of the Vienna convention to protect diplomatic missions, and we will hold it fully to account. We have already expelled the Libyan ambassador from London. The British embassy was looted as well as destroyed and the world war two memorial was desecrated. The UN has felt obliged to pull its people out for fear of attack.
Gaddafi made much of his call for a ceasefire, but at the very moment he claimed he wanted to talk, he had in fact been laying mines in Misrata harbour to stop humanitarian aid getting in. That is the regime—that is the man—we are dealing with. We will continue to enforce the UN resolutions until such time as they are fully in place, and that means continuing to turn up the pressure—sanctions pressure, diplomatic pressure and military pressure.
Bin Laden and Gaddafi were said to have hated each other, but there was a common thread running between them: they both feared the idea that democracy and civil rights could take hold in the Arab world. While we should continue to degrade, dismantle and defeat the terrorist networks, a big part of the long-term answer is the success of democracy in the middle east and, of course, the conclusion of the Arab-Israeli peace process. For 20 years, bin Laden claimed that the future of the Muslim world would be his, but Libya has shown, as Egypt and Tunisia did before it, that people are rejecting everything bin Laden stood for. Instead of replacing dictatorship with his extremist totalitarianism, they are choosing democracy.
Ten years on from the terrible tragedy of 9/11, with the end of bin Laden and the democratic awakening across the Arab world, we must seize this unique opportunity to deliver a decisive break with the forces of al-Qaeda and its poisonous ideology, which has caused so much suffering to so many across so many years. I commend this statement to the House.
Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)
I thank the Prime Minister for his statement and join him in strongly endorsing the sentiments expressed yesterday by President Obama. The Opposition wholeheartedly support the action taken by the United States to bring Osama bin Laden to justice. We are grateful to President Obama for taking the decision and to the US special forces who carried it out.
At this time we remember the harrowing scenes of death and destruction of 9/11, and we remember, too, all the other atrocities carried out by al-Qaeda before 9/11 and since, including in Nairobi, Dar es Salaam, Bali, Istanbul, Madrid, Amman and, of course, the 7/7 bombings here in London. The world is a better and safer place without bin Laden commanding or inciting acts of terror. We should never fall for the idea that he somehow stood for a particular community or faith. In each case the objective was the same: to kill and maim as many innocent men, women and children as possible, of all faiths and all backgrounds.
Our response now must be to seek to use this moment, not to claim premature victory in the fight against terrorists, but to heal the divisions he sought to create. We should do that by rooting out the perpetrators of terror, by reaching out to all those willing to accept the path of peace and, at the same time, by ensuring continued vigilance here at home.
All parts of the House will welcome the co-operative and calm response of the Pakistani Government over the past 48 hours, but there remains a great deal of uncertainty about who was aware of bin Laden’s presence and location in Pakistan, especially given his proximity to Pakistani military bases. Pakistan’s leaders continue to take a brave stance against terrorism, but when the Prime Minister talked to President Zardari and Prime Minister Gilani, what discussions did he have about ensuring that the security apparatus in Pakistan fully supports their anti-terrorist efforts?
The developments of this weekend remind us why we took military action in Afghanistan, which under the Taliban gave shelter to bin Laden and to al-Qaeda, but those developments should also, as the Prime Minister said, reinforce the need for a lasting political settlement in Afghanistan as the only long-term guarantee of peace and security. Does the Prime Minister agree that we need greater urgency in the search for a political solution and to engage with those parts of the Taliban that are ready to renounce violence? Does he think that there are ways in which we can sharpen the choice facing the Taliban, including by deepening the political process in Afghanistan?
On Yemen and al-Qaeda’s remaining strongholds, we must do everything to combat terrorism and to increase pressure on their supporters, and we must also support movements that make it less likely that terrorism will take root, for is it not clear that the most effective long-term answer to al-Qaeda’s ideology of hatred is being provided by the peoples of north Africa and the middle east? During the Arab spring they have not been turning to an ideology of hate; they are demanding the right to control their own destinies with democratic reform and economic progress.
In that context, will the Prime Minister update the House on progress that has been made in consolidating the democratic gains in Egypt and Tunisia? What is being done not only to ensure that those Arab leaders who have promised reform stick to their commitments, but to force those still resorting to violence and repression, as in Syria, to stop doing so?
On Libya, it is clear that we cannot abandon the Libyan people to Colonel Gaddafi’s revenge, but will the Prime Minister also take this opportunity to reassure the House that, in all our words as well as actions, it will be clear that all the steps we take are in the terms of UN Security Council resolution 1973? Does he further agree that doing so is right in principle and essential to maintaining regional support for action to enforce the will of the Security Council?
On Israel-Palestine, does the Prime Minister agree that the reaction of Hamas, calling the killing of bin Laden an example of American oppression, is deeply regrettable? Does he agree that we should continue to make efforts to restart the middle east peace process? What discussions has he had with President Obama and the other leaders on that important area?
Finally, I support the Prime Minister’s call for UK citizens to show increased vigilance at this time. Al-Qaeda has suffered a serious blow, but it remains a threat. Can I also take this opportunity to offer my thanks and the thanks of the Opposition to the police and security services, which work tirelessly in public and behind the scenes to keep us safe, as well as to British forces throughout the world?
Above all, let me say this: 9/11 was one of the most horrific events of our generation, and for the victims and their families, including in this country, nothing can remove the pain that they feel, but the death of Osama bin Laden sends out a clear message that, in the face of terrorist acts, the world will not rest until justice is done.
The Prime Minister
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his statement and for the way he has made it. He is absolutely right to praise the police and security services, particularly those in the security services who never get public recognition for the work that they do to keep people in our country safe.
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to talk as strongly as he has about 9/11 and the memories people have of it. I am sure that everyone in the House remembers exactly where they were and what they were doing on that day, and how they felt, and he is right that we should use this moment to try to heal many of the divisions in our world.
On the specific questions, the right hon. Gentleman asks about Pakistan and the question, which I think will come up a lot, about who knew what and what we will do to find out who knew what. What matters most of all, as I said, is to back the democratic leaders of Pakistan, to work with them and those involved in security and military matters and to try to hold discussions with them together, which is what I did on my last visit to Pakistan.
On Afghanistan, the right hon. Gentleman asks how we can increase the urgency of a political settlement. That is absolutely the right thing to do, and again part of the answer lies in Pakistan and the discussions we can have with it to encourage all those involved to give up violence, to accept the basic tenets of the Afghan constitution and, critically, to renounce any link with al-Qaeda.
The right hon. Gentleman asks what more can be done to deepen the democratic process in Egypt and Tunisia. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary was in Egypt yesterday. One of the key ways of doing this is through the European Union, and Britain, along with others, is pushing very hard for a total update of Europe’s relations with its neighbourhood to make them more attractive and something that has proper conditions attached to them.
On Syria, the right hon. Gentleman asked what more can be done to step up the pressure. I agree that what is happening in Syria is unacceptable. We are leading a process in Europe of setting about applying proper pressure—an arms embargo and taking the association agreement off the table—and we are looking at further steps, including travel bans and asset freezes, and other things we can do to show that what is happening in Syria is unacceptable.
On Libya, the right hon. Gentleman asks whether we will stick to UN resolution 1973. Yes, we will. What I would say, though, is that this does not mean just sticking with the existing set of things we are doing. All the time, we should be asking what more we can do to raise the diplomatic, military and sanctions pressure; and within all necessary measures to protect civilian life, I believe that there are many more things we can do and should do to keep the pressure up.
The right hon. Gentleman is right that Hamas’s reaction is very regrettable. I do believe, though, that the middle east peace process is, if you like, the third leg of the strategy to fundamentally defeat al-Qaeda. The first leg is the attack on the terrorist network—the blow so successfully dealt yesterday—and the second leg is democracy and progress in the middle east, in north Africa and in Muslim countries, but the third leg is a middle east peace process that works. I am seeing Prime Minister Netanyahu tomorrow evening, and we will do everything we can in our power to encourage both sides to recognise the historic times that we are living in and the historic chance there is to forge a deal that will last.
Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con)
The Prime Minister has rightly paid tribute to the United States special forces who carried out yesterday’s remarkable operation. Will he make a similar tribute to the United States intelligence agencies, without whose patience and professionalism the actual location of bin Laden would never have been achieved?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. and learned Friend is entirely right. Clearly, this was a painstaking operation—if you like, a painstaking piece of detective work—that went on for many, many months. I can tell from speaking to President Obama that this was not some chance opportunity that came up but a piece of very careful work put in place over months and an operation clearly carried out with great professionalism and skill.
Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)
The Prime Minister rightly talks about three strands of a strategy to deal with the continuing problem of al-Qaeda. May I suggest that there is an additional strand, to pick up his point about the pernicious ideology of al-Qaeda, which in many ways remains the most enduring threat posed by al-Qaeda, notwithstanding the demise of its leader? Although there is no silver bullet, so far as here at home is concerned we need to continue programmes to deal with underachievement by some—not all—Asian heritage groups in schools and underemployment of them at work in order to reduce the opportunities for their minds to be taken over by this ideology.
The Prime Minister
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman, although I would say that there are two additional strands. One is dealing with problems of poverty, inequality and underachievement, which absolutely must be done, but separate from that is the whole bin Laden/al-Qaeda/extremist Islamist thread of painting Muslims and Muslim communities as somehow being in perpetual victimhood and saying that they can never successfully co-exist in western democratic societies. It is absolutely key that we target that ideology and challenge it, because in the end it is only by challenging the ideology that we will win this battle.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
While understanding the satisfaction, and even elation, of those who lost family members in the inferno of 9/11, does my right hon. Friend agree that the sober reality is that some things are unchanged by the death of Osama bin Laden? The threat remains, jihadism must be confronted, and adequate resources, effective international co-operation and good intelligence remain essential.
The Prime Minister
My right hon. and learned Friend is right. There is still a severe terrorist threat—there is still an al-Qaeda threat—and we should not overestimate what has happened, but clearly the end of bin Laden, who was the leader and inspiration of this movement, is a massive setback for al-Qaeda and for its terrorist affiliates, and I think it is worth putting that on the record. Clearly, we now have to go further and deal with the remaining senior leadership of al-Qaeda who are in the tribal lands in Pakistan. We then have to address the affiliates in places like the Arabian peninsula and in the Maghreb. But as my right hon. and learned Friend and the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) said, dealing with the pernicious ideology will be just as important as defeating the terrorists themselves.
Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab)
I endorse everything that has been said this afternoon. In the light of the agreed short-term risk, does the Prime Minister agree that the resources of the security and policing services in Britain should be focused entirely on this issue? In the light of the words of the Deputy Prime Minister this morning that the proposed changes to the police service are not set in stone, will the Prime Minister consider a pause in the Government’s changes to the police service so that it can concentrate on what really matters to the British people?
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman is obviously going a bit wider in his questioning. To me, it does not seem right to say that all the police’s attention should be on this issue; we have a serious situation in Northern Ireland as well. At all times, we are balancing the risks. On the police reforms, I say to Opposition Members that we have seen a successful model in London with the Mayor, which the previous Government put in place. That is a system in which the police feel more accountable to an elected individual, and I look forward to extending that across the country.
Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)
Pakistan is a divided and complex country, and the death of Osama bin Laden will only exacerbate tensions there. Does the Prime Minister agree that our priority should be to assist Pakistan to remain a stable state, if only because first, it is a nuclear power, and, secondly, it will have a crucial role in any settlement in Afghanistan?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is entirely right. Of course there are frustrations, and questions will be asked about who knew what in Pakistan and about how this man could have lived in such a large house in such a comfortable-looking community so close to military installations. I am absolutely clear that the British interest is in working with the democratic politicians of Pakistan to deal with the shared issues of combating extremism; ensuring that we are dealing with a safe, rather than a dangerous, nuclear power; and, as my hon. Friend says, reaching a settlement in Afghanistan so that we can bring Britain’s brave troops home.
Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab)
The brave and incredibly skilled individuals who carried out this operation deserve our profound gratitude, as do all those who put their lives on the line to protect us, including our own armed forces. In tackling the wider ideology of al-Qaeda, does the Prime Minister think that there are actions that we need to take abroad, as well as those that we need to take at home? The reconciliation track in Afghanistan is enormously important, and surely this operation gives us the opportunity to step up that activity. Did he talk to the President of the United States about that, and if he did not, will he do so?
The Prime Minister
I absolutely agree with the right hon. Gentleman that this is an opportunity, particularly in Afghanistan. Having discussed this matter with President Obama on many occasions, it is clear that there are two tracks that we should be pursuing. There is the military track, where we are building up the Afghan army and police, and having success against the insurgency in Afghanistan, where our troops are performing magnificently. At the same time, there is a political track, where we are saying to the Taliban that it is time for them to give up violence, break the link with al-Qaeda and enter a political process. Both tracks can continue simultaneously, but the death of bin Laden and the work with Pakistan present a greater opportunity for the second track to yield success.
Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that although the remarks by Hamas were as repugnant as they were wrong, the moves by the new masters of Egypt towards opening the border with Hamas-controlled Gaza are nevertheless the clearest possible illustration of just how important is the third corner of the triangle that he outlined? There will be no support from moderate Arab opinion without a long-term solution that offers justice for the Palestinians.
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is clearly right. We have to take the positive, optimistic view that although there will be all sorts of difficulties in the days ahead, Palestinian unity between Fatah and Hamas should be a step forward, and we must make sure that it is. What follows is trying to persuade the Israelis and others that although there are all sorts of uncertainties in the world today, this is an opportunity to take steps towards peace, as they will be dealing with more democratic neighbours.
Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
The Prime Minister will know that the vast majority of Muslims in this country entirely reject the violent ideology of al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. Will he therefore confirm that in the review of the Prevent programme, he will ensure that he puts in place a series of practical programmes to build the resilience of our young people to messages of hatred and extremism? Will he also confirm that he takes really seriously, as I know he does, the challenge to that ideology, on which I believe we have to do far more work to ensure that we really make an impact?
The Prime Minister
The words the right hon. Lady has uttered have been ringing through our review of Prevent. The problem has been not so much that a minority of British Muslims actually back al-Qaeda as that there has been a pernicious ideology among a minority of some communities that has given some comfort to the stories that al-Qaeda provides about victimhood and the rest of it. We have to address that issue in order to drain the swamp in which al-Qaeda has been swimming, if I can say so without mixing my metaphors.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
Although it is clear that Osama bin Laden was deeply malign and it is good that that influence has ended, does the Prime Minister agree that the rule of law is very important and it is a great shame that we were not able to bring him before a court?
The Prime Minister
I listened very carefully to John Brennan’s briefing, and he made it clear that the forces were prepared to take bin Laden alive and capture him, but only if they were not actually in a firefight and at risk themselves. I think the Americans were completely justified in what they did and I think the world is much better off without bin Laden.
Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)
In the context of counter-terrorism, if our allies can take out bin Laden in Pakistan and we can hit targets in Libya, why cannot we arrest a balaclava-clad terrorist who stands in a graveyard in Londonderry, in the United Kingdom, and threatens to kill police officers and destroy the political process in Northern Ireland?
The Prime Minister
As the right hon. Gentleman knows, I take a very strong view that what we saw in Londonderry is not acceptable and is an offence that the police should pursue. The Police Service of Northern Ireland is now well funded, well backed and an excellent police service, and I would encourage it in its work.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
Not withstanding the huge military sacrifices of the Pakistani army and the Pakistani people, in the Prime Minister’s conversations with President Zardari, did the President give him an assurance that should an evidence trail emerge from any subsequent investigation into the bin Laden compound that links some elements of the Pakistani state with the possible protection of bin Laden, the individuals involved will be brought before the courts in Pakistan?
The Prime Minister
In the conversation that I had with President Zardari, and then separately with Prime Minister Gillani, they first gave me their assurance that they did not know that bin Laden was living in Abbottabad and that they did not have such an understanding. I clearly made the point that the Pakistanis were going to be asked a lot of very searching questions by friends and foes alike over the coming days and needed to be prepared to answer them, but I come back to this basic point: what is in our national interest? Is it in our interest to have an enormous bust-up and argument with Pakistan over this, or is it in our interest to say, “Right, we’re going to work with the forces of democracy in Pakistan that want to fight terror and terrorism”? That must be in our interest, and it is what we should adhere to.
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
Earlier, the Foreign Secretary tried to reassure the House that the future of the World Service was secure, but it is undeniably a diminished World Service whose future is secure. Given what has been said about counter-terrorism ideas in emerging democracies, will the Prime Minister strategically review the role and budget of the World Service?
The Prime Minister
Lots of Government Departments had very difficult settlements because, I am afraid, of the financial situation that we inherited. I think the deal with the World Service involving the BBC provided secure funding for its future. Of course it is having to make some economies, but I think it is perfectly possible to make economies and provide a good service at the same time.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Although I welcome the Prime Minister’s emphasis on the battle of ideas, does he share my concern that all too many people in all too many Muslim communities do not even accept that bin Laden was responsible for 9/11? What does that say about the failure of the west to get the counter-narrative and the counter-propaganda out worldwide and effectively?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a good point, and that is very much what I was discussing with the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). Many in that minority of the Muslim community take the view that bin Laden was not responsible for 9/11. That does not mean that they actively back bin Laden; it just means that they have bought in to a narrative of Israeli plots and the rest of it. We must challenge that narrative. We cannot have young people growing up in our country believing that nonsense, and it is incumbent on all of us in the work we do in our constituencies—in mosques, community centres and so on—to challenge that thinking whenever it comes up. We should not believe that we are challenging cultural sensitivities in doing so—we are not. We are making a very clear point about what it means to be part of a modern democracy.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
A lot of the coverage of Osama bin Laden’s death has referred to him as “evil”, and although we all hate the man, may I congratulate the Prime Minister on, I think, deliberately avoiding that sort of religious language? Osama bin Laden was not engaged in a holy war or crusade, and do we not need to hear a lot more Muslim clerics make that absolutely clear?
The Prime Minister
I think we do. I am not sure that I avoided the word “evil”—I will always take religious advice from the hon. Gentleman, who has more experience in that—but his point is a good one. We must remember that al-Qaeda’s narrative is not Muslims against the rest of the world, but Muslims against Muslims, before moving on to the clash of civilisations with the rest of the world. It is hopeful that we are seeing Arab and Muslim states saying that what they want is not that sort of sharia law society, but to move towards the building blocks of democracy, which will make for a better and more peaceful world.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
I visited the UK Bali memorial today—a tribute to the innocent victims of just one of the many terrorist bombings that defined the past decade. News of bin Laden’s death did not fill me with any sense of victory, for the world is no safer, but I did feel that we are starting a new chapter and that the world is a better place. Bin Laden’s removal is long overdue. Is it not telling that the Arab spring is calling not for a seventh-century caliphate, but for a change towards a non-violent, democratic and secular society?
The Prime Minister
I thank my hon. Friend for his question, and I know that he suffered a loss in that Bali bomb. We can never bring back someone who has been lost, but he is right that the best tribute we can pay to the people who were lost in the murderous attacks in New York, London, Istanbul or Bali is not only to roll up the terrorist network that has created so much hatred, poison and death, but to see the Arab and Muslim world move towards democracy and freedom. That would be the most fitting tribute of all.
Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)
Bin Laden is dead, but the ideology he represented is not, even though al-Qaeda has been a follower rather than a leader of the Arab spring. Does the Prime Minister accept that parts of that ideology—the perverted use of victimhood and the warped sense of faith—are often used as justification to kill others of the same faith? Is he aware that that ideology is sometimes shared by those who are not active supporters of terrorism? Does he therefore accept that even though bin Laden is gone, the struggle against the ideology he represented must continue at a political, an ideological and a security level?
The Prime Minister
I very much agree with the right hon. Gentleman and I hope there can be cross-party consensus on that. It would really help if we recognise in the review of Prevent and in what we do to deal with that ideology that it is not enough to say that we will prevent violent extremism, because we need to prevent extremism as well. Sometimes in the past, we have made a mistake in thinking, “Let’s talk to the extremists in order to stop the really violent ones,” but that is like trying to get the British National party to help to deal with a violent fascist. That would not be sensible in that context, and it is not sensible in dealing with extremist Islamism either.
Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con)
I want Pakistan to be a prosperous, peaceful and successful country, free of corruption. It is in our interests to support that, but lots of people in this country know that something stinks about where bin Laden was found and where he has apparently been living for the past five years. If this country is to continue to support and encourage Pakistan financially and morally, the Pakistani Government need to come clean about what has happened.
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an important point. Just because we are long-term friends and partners with Pakistan, as we should be, it does not mean that we cannot deliver a fairly tough message every now and again. When I went to Pakistan recently, one message I delivered was that it was unacceptable that so many people in Pakistan did not pay their taxes. It is not easy for us in the west to take money off our taxpayers to give to Pakistani education—vital though that is—if Pakistan is not collecting taxes from its own people. Dealing with corruption, making the country more transparent and ensuring that wealthy people in Pakistan pay their taxes should all be part of our bilateral agenda.
Malcolm Wicks (Croydon North) (Lab)
When the Prime Minister visited Pakistan recently, he announced various lines of co-operation, including technical co-operation on roadside improvised explosive devices. In the light of very recent events, will the Prime Minister review that co-operative agreement, lest technical knowledge gained could be passed rather quickly into the hands of terrorists in Afghanistan and elsewhere, with consequent threats to British and other lives?
The Prime Minister
Of course we consider all those things very carefully, but Pakistan has lost thousands of soldiers fighting extremists in south Waziristan and the Swat valley, where they are trying to root out a similar sort of Taliban to the one we are fighting in Afghanistan. We have to understand when we are talking to President Zardari that he lost his wife to extremist terrorists. Of course we must be careful in all that we do, but working with the Pakistanis so that they can combat extremism in their own country is clearly in our national interest.
Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
May I commend my right hon. Friend’s tone towards Pakistan and his saying that we should deal with that country constructively and co-operatively? Should we not bear in mind what President Zardari himself has pointed out—that only 11% of the population of Pakistan has ever voted for radical Islamic parties, and that 85% is explicitly opposed to al-Qaeda? On that basis, there should be common interest and common cause between our two countries.
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is entirely right. Indeed, we need to co-operate not just on combating terrorism, but on the other matter we have been discussing today—combating the narrative of extremism. The same problem as the one we have been dealing with in our country exists in parts of Pakistan, albeit in a larger and different way.
Mr Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab)
Although everybody welcomes the death of this evil man, does the Prime Minister not agree that the west should take two steps back when it wants to interfere in other people’s affairs?
The Prime Minister
The problem with that philosophical view of British foreign policy is that we live in too much of an interconnected world. The idea that we can just put the barrier up and say, “What happens in Pakistan or Afghanistan does not affect us” is wrong. The fact is that 1.4 million people of Pakistani origin live in Britain and travel between here and Pakistan. The fact is that we were threatened by terrorism sourced from Afghanistan and the tribal lands of Pakistan. I am afraid that that sort of “stop the world, I want to get off” foreign policy option no longer exists in this interconnected world.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Wellingborough is a fully integrated, interfaith community—in fact, this week we have Sikh, Hindu, Muslim and Christian candidates standing for the Conservative party at the local elections. [Interruption.] Does the Prime Minister agree that in my community of Wellingborough, yesterday’s events will be wholly welcomed?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an important point. I think someone shouted, “What’s that got to do with it?” but it is important that all parties try to ensure that they are fully representative of all parts of the community. As we have learned in the Conservative party, it is not enough just to open the doors and invite people in; we have to go out and ask people in, so that we can say to people in every community that they are represented in whatever party they would like to support for whatever reason they would like to support it.
Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)
Can the Prime Minister tell us anything about the reported counter-terrorism raids that have taken place in four homes in east London?
The Prime Minister
I can tell the hon. Lady that an arrest was made in connection with a group of people at Sellafield today. That is a matter for the police, but if there is further information to update her with, perhaps my office can contact her.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
Bin Laden may have gone, but other members and supporters of al-Qaeda continue to live openly in the United Kingdom, protected by the European Human Rights Act 1998. Does the Prime Minister agree that we can put a lot more faith in US special forces to protect us than the bureaucrats of Brussels?
The Prime Minister
I have some sympathy with what my hon. Friend says. We are trying to deal with the problem in a number of ways. First, we are trying to sign a treaty with Pakistan on deportation with assurances, so that we can deport people of Pakistani citizenship and origin who may threaten this country back to Pakistan to be dealt with there. I discussed that with Prime Minister Gilani and President Zardari when I was there recently. However, we are also trying to reform the European Court of Human Rights from within, and my hon. Friend will be pleased to know that our right hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary had a very productive set of meetings with other Council members and there was widespread support for reforming the Court, so that it pays more attention to decisions taken by national courts.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)
I thank the Prime Minister for his statement and for early sight of it. The conclusion was that what Libya demonstrated, as Egypt and Tunisia did before it, is that people are completely rejecting everything that bin Laden stood for. My hon. Friends and I fervently hope that that is true. Will the Prime Minister update the House on the concrete steps being taken to foster democracy and respect for human rights in north Africa and throughout the middle east?
The Prime Minister
I think there are bilateral actions that Britain, as an old and successful democracy, should take and links that we should make, such as updating the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, as we have discussed in this House before. However, the biggest step would be for the European Union radically to overhaul its programme of help and assistance to north African and middle eastern neighbours and countries. Frankly, its programme up to now has been quite expensive—there is no shortage of money being spent—but it has not been successful in putting in place those building blocks of democracy. That is what we should be working on.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is imperative to provide every possible military, diplomatic and development assistance to Pakistan, not only to build democracy in the longer term, but to help to improve security in the shorter term, which is inextricably linked with a successful exit strategy from Afghanistan?
The Prime Minister
I agree that we need to build those links. Clearly there has to be a two-way relationship: we must not be too transactional about it, but we need to be clear with the Pakistanis about what we hope to gain from the partnership that we enter into. Clearly, work on counter-terrorism is vital to Britain’s national interest, but we are prepared to do a huge amount with Pakistan to help with matters such as the education of children. There are 17 million children in Pakistan not at school today. If we want to keep them away from extremism and, indeed, if we want to deal with problems of migration as well, it makes sense for us to continue our aid programme.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
Every terrorist attack is a disaster; every resulting war is a tragedy. Does the Prime Minister not agree that we should now think quite seriously about the whole strategy adopted over the past 30 years? Bin Laden was financed by the west in the war in Afghanistan in 1979; he had relations with US oil interests after that, and later he became the terrorist threat that he remained for the rest of his life. Do we not need to think seriously about where the west is putting money, who it supports and what eventually comes round to bite us in the back because we have not analysed what is happening in those countries and those societies?
The Prime Minister
Of course the hon. Gentleman is right that we have to learn the lessons of successes and failures of the past and try to apply them for the future, but it seems to me that there are some constants in all this, one of which is that the promotion of democracy and freedom, along with what I call the building blocks of democracy, is almost always and everywhere a good thing to do. In as much as we learn the lessons of interventions of the past, I hope that we hold on to that.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
It is entirely right that the Taliban should heed the calls from the Prime Minister to separate themselves from al-Qaeda and participate in a peaceful political process. What practical mechanisms exist whereby, in doing so, the Taliban can pursue a peaceful settlement in Afghanistan?
The Prime Minister
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. There are practical steps in place through the reconciliation and reintegration procedure that is available in Afghanistan through the President’s peace council. That enables Taliban fighters effectively to put down their weapons and join the political process, as long as they accept the basic tenets of the Afghan constitution. However, as well as that low-level reintegration, we need higher-level reconciliation, where we say to the Taliban, “If you accept the tenets of the constitution, give up violence and cut your links with al-Qaeda, there is a political path open to you,” because ultimately, insurgencies tend to end through a combination of force of arms and a simultaneous political process.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
Do not the six years of treachery by powerful people in Pakistan prove that the links of blood, religion, language and ethnicity between Pakistan and Afghanistan are far, far more powerful than the friendship of convenience between us and those countries, which depends on a continuing sacrifice of blood and treasure by us? Have not our excessive optimism and trust delayed the day when we can do a deal and bring our brave boys home?
The Prime Minister
I do not accept that analysis, because it can lead us to believe that the best option for Britain, and indeed America, is to cut ourselves off entirely from friendships, partnerships and co-operation with those countries and leave them to their own devices. That has been a mistake in the past. The lesson to learn is that long-term partnerships to help those countries are actually in our interests.
Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)
The Prime Minister spoke about the myth of Osama bin Laden. One of the most powerful recruiting sergeants for al-Qaeda was the idea that he had moved away from a decadent western lifestyle to that of a penitent holy warrior. Is the Prime Minister heartened, as I am, by the truth that he was a hypocrite and that that hypocrisy runs through the core of the ideology of al-Qaeda?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an important point. The idea that bin Laden was a hermit bravely living in a cave directing the insurgency has been given the lie completely, as we see now that he was living in a luxury million-dollar villa in a fairly suburban part of Pakistan. I hope that people who have somehow revered this man will now see the true picture of someone who was hypocritically living pretty high on the hog while expecting others to suffer hardship.
Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)
I warmly commend the remarks that the Prime Minister has made about Pakistan consistently throughout his statement. He is right that questions will have to be asked about who knew what, but the central tenet of what he says is that our relationship with Pakistan is not a friendship of convenience, as some of my hon. Friends believe. In fact, Britain and Pakistan have an unbreakable common interest in combating terrorism, and in many other areas. What more can be done to ensure that that is understood here in Britain and, importantly, in Pakistan?
The Prime Minister
It is about the hard work of building a strong partnership that is for the long term and not concentrating too much on the short-term transactions that two countries might want to undertake. The fact is that we have a shared interest in fighting terrorism, expanding trade, combating poverty, improving education and ensuring that the people-to-people links between our countries are strong. The more we discuss those matters with democratically elected politicians in Pakistan, the more the common interests will grow. I do not think that that is an impossible dream, as the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) suggested; it is practical politics and completely in our national interest.
Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con)
May I turn the Prime Minister’s attention to Libya? He mentioned that he was seeking to tighten up the sanctions. What does he think about those countries that are not exactly signed up to the United Nations resolutions and that have been allowing Gaddafi to get hold of assets and funding by letting them slip through their countries and into Tripoli?
The Prime Minister
We think that that is unacceptable, and that, as well as implementing resolutions 1970 and 1973, there are opportunities to tighten sanctions—on oil and oil products, for example—to ensure that the regime comes to its senses and realises that it cannot go on terrorising its own people. In the coming days, we will look at ways of stepping up the action that we are taking, as well as encourage others to enforce measures already in place.
Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)
The Prime Minister has referred several times to the need to combat the global jihadist Islamist ideology. In that context, will he have urgent discussions with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and ask it not only to reverse the reductions in the BBC’s Arabic language services, but to implement an idea that has been talked about for quite a while—namely, to introduce a BBC Urdu channel to broadcast in Pakistan?
The Prime Minister
I heard the Foreign Secretary dealing with that matter extensively during questions. Many of the budget reductions being made are regrettable, but they are all part of ensuring that government is affordable and that we deal with the deficit that we inherited. I am quite clear that the settlement for the BBC is fair and that the BBC has to ensure that that money goes further in providing many of the excellent services that it does.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
In the context of Libya, may I ask my right hon. Friend what support the NATO-led coalition is receiving from other members of the Arab League?
The Prime Minister
We are getting good support from members of the Arab League: both the Qataris and the United Arab Emirates are providing planes, and logistic support is coming from some other members of the Arab League. The key is that the contact group, which my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary helped to set up, has already had a number of meetings and further ones are forthcoming. In those meetings, the support of the Arab League and Arab countries for what is happening in Libya is still extremely strong—
The Prime Minister
No, it is not declining. It is still strong because Arab League countries know what they are dealing with in Gaddafi. When they watch what he is doing now—mining the port in Misrata, shelling and killing his own citizens—they know that is completely unacceptable and they are right to back the coalition.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
Will the Prime Minister say in which part of the world any possible retaliatory attack is most threatening? Do the Government have any plans to deploy UK military resources to combat that threat?
The Prime Minister
The whole point of the Cobra meeting last night was to review the evidence and concerns about potential retaliatory attacks. Clearly, we have to be on our guard across the world against attacks, whether they be here in the UK or on British assets or embassies in any other part of the world. We keep the threat picture permanently updated and keep permanently under review the advice we give to our embassies and the stance we take here. Certainty is never possible in these matters, but we try to be as vigilant as we can be.
Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)
My right hon. Friend said that our objectives in Afghanistan remain unchanged. Does he believe that the death of bin Laden might allow us to achieve those objectives more quickly and hasten the day when our servicemen and women can come home?
The Prime Minister
I do not think it should automatically change our timetable; I think we should stick to that timetable. As I said, however, as well as the military track we are pursuing, there is also the political track of encouraging the Taliban into a political process. I would think that that will be helped by the fact that bin Laden is no more, as the futility of maintaining the link with al-Qaeda is seen. If the Taliban sever that link, there is every prospect of a political settlement, which prospect can clearly lead to British forces coming home. I do not think we should imagine that the timetable will be different, but we should work hard to take every opportunity brought about by the end of bin Laden.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
The Prime Minister famously once accused the Pakistani Government of facing both ways. Is it not now clear that, whichever way they were facing, Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence was clearly focused on Abbottabad and the security compound there, and that the co-operation of which he spoke must now have as part of its condition the root and branch reform of the ISI? If not, the fight against terror will be doomed from the beginning.
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. As I said in my statement, it is clear that bin Laden had a “support network” in Pakistan. Those are the words that John Brennan used, and they are absolutely right. We do not know the full extent of that support network or exactly where it reached; what we do know is that we should do everything we can to support the democrats in Pakistan who want the entire country to face the same way and work hard to combat terrorism in every way possible. That is what we should do.
Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)
I welcome the content and particularly the promptness of the Prime Minister’s statement. The Foreign Secretary confirmed earlier that military action against individuals such as Colonel Gaddafi should take place only within the confines of proper legal authority. Does the Prime Minister expect it to be confirmed that that was also the case for the undoubtedly courageous action against Osama bin Laden?
The Prime Minister
The legal position and the legal advice are a matter for the United States. It was a US operation with US troops, so it is entirely a matter for that country. I think we should focus today on the fact that the world is undoubtedly better off without that man still being at large.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
I think the Prime Minister for his statement. Will he inform us whether intelligence sources confirm that Colonel Gaddafi is planning to use chemical weapons against the people of Libya? What further steps can be taken against the tyrant Gaddafi?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman has raised an interesting point. I believe that there have been press reports of gas masks being distributed by some in the Libyan regime, but we have no information about whether those reports are reliable or are linked with anything else. Obviously, however, we keep a close eye on everything that is happening in Libya, and on any threat that the regime could use such weapons in any way.
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
Of course we reject the al-Qaeda characterisation of western policy as an attempt to impose our views on the Muslim world, but in order to win hearts and minds—particularly in the Arab world—will my right hon. Friend make it clear that it is no part of our long-term policy to impose or get rid of a particular regime in Libya, and that our aim is to secure a ceasefire, a settlement and, ultimately, peace, even at the cost of a divided country? I suspect that what most Libyans want is peace.
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend has made a good point, which is linked to the point made at Question Time by the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn). We are not there to pick a Government for Libya—to say, “You can have this sort of Government but not that sort of Government.” We are there, basically, to put in place United Nations resolutions 1970 and 1973, and to allow the Libyan people to choose their own Government in their own way. It may well be, in the end, a Government with whom we do not have 100% agreement, but one of the lessons that we have learnt in recent years is that that is how to make progress, rather than our trying—as I have put it in the past—to impose such things from above.
Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op)
The Prime Minister spoke of the myths about bin Laden. Is he not concerned about the possibility that the swift burial of bin Laden will lead to conspiracy theories and further myths about whether he is still alive?
The Prime Minister
I think that the United States made a sensible decision on the basis that this was in line with all the correct Muslim practices for burial—a luxury, incidentally, that bin Laden never allowed any of his victims. This was done in an appropriate way, at sea, and I think that the Americans are to be commended for doing it in that way.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
In the context of the rumours of conspiracy theorists, does the Prime Minister agree that it would be inappropriate and potentially unhelpful if the United States authorities released detailed and possibly gory footage of the operation in Pakistan?
The Prime Minister
I think that it is, in the end, for the United States to decide exactly what to release about the operation. All that I would say, on the basis of my limited experience, is that there are some conspiracy theorists who will never be satisfied. Some people still believe that Elvis will be found riding Shergar. You will never satisfy some people. I think that what the Americans have done so far is pretty sufficient in explaining to all reasonable people that bin Laden is no more.
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
On that bright September morning in New York, no one really seemed to give a fuss about anyone else’s religion, but over 20 years Osama bin Laden was responsible not only for the murder of innocents but for a raising of disadvantage for Muslims in many parts of the world. Does the Prime Minister agree that terrorists like Mr bin Laden abandon their faith the moment they determine to slaughter innocent people, and will he recommit himself to an open, inclusive society in this country, which includes our Muslim citizens?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend has put it extremely well. The fact is that there is no place in Islam for this sort of murderous ideology. It is against what Islam is meant to be all about. I hope that the argument that we can get across to people now is that that was an entirely blind alley for so many young people to go down, and that there is an alternative to the repression and frustration that they felt about regimes in north Africa and elsewhere: the democratic awakening that is taking place, which—as I said earlier—is one of the ways in which we will defeat al-Qaeda in the long run.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
Does the Prime Minister agree that, having suffered such a grievous loss—that of his wife—the President of Pakistan is totally on side in the battle against international terrorism, and that somehow or other we must help him to rid his governmental structure of people who are sympathetic to al-Qaeda, or indeed the Taliban? I do not know how we can do that, but perhaps the Prime Minister does.
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend has put his question in the right way. A long-term commitment on the part of this country and, crucially, the United States to Pakistan is what is needed to help to convince Pakistan that together we will defeat this menace and give the country some prospect of peaceful progress. I have no doubt that that is President Zardari’s view. As my hon. Friend has said, the President has suffered from terrorism himself, and has shown considerable courage in sending Pakistani troops into the Swat valley and south Waziristan to defeat terrorism. So yes, Pakistan does need our help and long-term commitment so that we can deal with this issue together.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
What concrete steps are the UK Government and their allies taking to counter any propaganda campaign that may be launched seeking to portray bin Laden as a martyr?
The Prime Minister
That is a good point, and how the Americans have behaved over the burial—the fact that it was done in a proper Muslim way, and so forth—will help in that regard. Frankly, I do not think there is any magic button we can push or any magic campaign we can run. It is for all of us to make sure that people understand the evil this man did, the pernicious ideology he was pushing, and the fact that it led to a complete dead end for a generation of young Muslim men. If we make that argument, we can win that argument.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
Bin Laden’s death will be a severe setback for al-Qaeda, but as the Prime Minister knows, there are relatively few al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, and there are real differences between the Taliban and al-Qaeda, which could be worth exploring to provide a way forward. Will the Prime Minister therefore do more to urge the Americans to have open, meaningful, non-conditional talks with the Taliban? As we showed in Northern Ireland, it is possible to fight and talk at the same time.
The Prime Minister
The point I would make to my hon. Friend is that while there are clearly differences between the Taliban and al-Qaeda, there are at the moment still links between them. The Taliban are not currently willing to break the link with al-Qaeda, but that is a key step that needs to be taken in making sure that they can enter some sort of political dialogue and settlement in Afghanistan. It is not acceptable to ask Afghan democrats, and President Karzai and others, to have conversations with people who, even at the end of those conversations, are still going to be committed to violence and overthrowing all of the Afghan constitution, and who are going to be linked to a group of terrorists—al-Qaeda—which has done so much damage not just to Pakistan, but to Afghanistan itself.
Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
Does the Prime Minister believe the discovery of bin Laden in Pakistan serves to vindicate the speech he gave in Bangalore last July?
The Prime Minister
I am not going to row away from points I have made in the past, but the point I would repeat today is that it is in our interests to work with democrats in Pakistan so that all of that country, and everyone within it, is facing in the same direction in combating extremism, as their democratically elected politicians so clearly want to do.
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the overwhelmingly vast majority of Muslims, both here in the UK and around the world, will welcome the fact that this evil criminal has been brought to justice? We must remind ourselves of that, to avoid stigmatising one particular group in society.
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and it should ring out from this Chamber today that one of the groups of people who should be most relieved at the passing of bin Laden is Muslims all over the world, because he killed more Muslims than people belonging to any other faith. The point has been made right across the House today that only a minority of a minority of a minority, as it were, backed al-Qaeda, and another small group of people bought into some of the pernicious ideology it was peddling. We have to deal with both those problems, and it is remarkable how much common ground there has been on that on both sides of the House today.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
From one Essex man to another! Will my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister confirm that the Government will take strong action against any conveyor-belt Islamist groups or individuals that use what has happened to bin Laden to promote jihad or other forms of violence?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a good point, and as we have discussed today, we must combat not just violent extremism, but extremism itself. I think there has in the past been a sense of a conveyer belt, with some extremist groups and organisations taking people into a career of jihadism, and we will never deal with that unless we deal with the conveyor belt itself.
Points of Order
(13 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your ruling and advice on whether the Minister for Housing and Local Government has breached purdah rules. Part 6 of the most recent Cabinet Office rules state that Government announcements should not be made in an election period, yet two days before elections the media and the Department for Communities and Local Government website confirm that he has made an announcement on self-build housing today. Is it not more appropriate for such announcements to be made on the Floor of the House outside the purdah period? Should not the Minister be required to come to the House to apologise or to explain, or perhaps to do both?
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the hon. Lady both for her point of order and for advance notice of it. I have not been told of any intention on the part of any Minister, including the Minister to whom she referred, to make a statement. She has put her views on the record and can find other ways of pursuing this. I note in particular what she said about the code of conduct, and my response is that the question of purdah, and of statements not being made during a period of purdah, does not apply to or flow from any rule of the House. That is to say that there may be a ministerial procedure on this matter—the hon. Lady is welcome to pursue her line of questioning in relation to that—but there has, in short, been no breach of order. Her point will, however, have been heard, including by the Leader of the House.
Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I know that half the Cabinet are not supposed to be talking to the other half, but I hope that Foreign Office Ministers are talking to one another. I say that because the answer given to me by the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) on the case of Bradley Manning is misleading.
I have raised this issue on several occasions. I raised it with the Foreign Secretary on 16 March and again during business questions on 17 March. I raised it once more during an Adjournment debate on 4 April, when I was told that
“a senior official in our embassy in Washington called on the US State Department on 29 March”
to discuss Private Manning’s terrible situation in prison. The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham) went on to say:
“the right hon. Lady's understanding of the British Nationality Act 1981 is accurate. Any person born outside the UK after 1 January 1983 whose mother is a UK citizen by birth is British by descent.”
He continued by saying that Mr Manning’s family had not made a “direct request” for help,
“but obviously, if it comes to consular assistance of any kind, we will look at that request as and when one is made.”—[Official Report, 4 April 2011; Vol. 526, c. 873-74.]
Such a request was made to the Foreign Secretary on 11 April by Bradley Manning’s mother, who said that she now understands that
“according to British law, Bradley qualifies as a British national.”
She continued:
“I visited Bradley at the end of February…I was very distressed by seeing Bradley”
in the condition he is in—
Mr Speaker
Order. I am extremely grateful to the right hon. Lady, who is a very experienced Member of the House. I know that she would not accuse any Minister of wilfully misleading the House; I am sure that she meant to say that she thought that the Minister was inadvertently misleading the House. She will understand, and the House will appreciate, that we cannot continue Foreign Office questions now. However, as the Minister, who is among the most courteous of Ministers in the House, is on the Bench ready and waiting with bated breath to respond, he should do so.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt)
I am very grateful to you, Mr Speaker, for allowing me some extra time. Nothing that the right hon. Lady has said is wrong in any way. Her concerns were conveyed to the State Department by an official of the Government, but the crucial point is that although I can well understand her concern and what Bradley Manning’s mother may have done, we are not able to respond to that, as any request for assistance has to come from the individual. I can only stress what I have said to the right hon. Lady, which is that Bradley Manning’s lawyers are aware of the UK Government’s position and they are also aware of how to change it. That is the situation. I can help the right hon. Lady further only in private, rather than on the Floor of the House. I hope that is all right.
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the Minister. We come now to the ten-minute rule motion, for which the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) has been patiently waiting.
Planning (Green Belt Protection)
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to increase the powers available to local authorities in relation to unauthorised development of green belt and greenfield land; and for connected purposes.
This Bill is about fairness. Laws apply to everyone across society in equal measure and the Bill reinforces the powers of local authorities so that they may take action against people who pay no regard to planning rules. It applies to developers who build a house beyond agreed specifications, the farmer who lives in a barn for a few years and then reveals it and claims it is his home, and to Travellers who attempt to circumvent planning rules. There is a need to tighten planning legislation to remedy the frustrations of my constituents about certain types of planning abuse, and the problem has been compounded in Beckenham by Ireland, which has expelled quite a number of Travellers through some of its draconian laws.
I fully support the Localism Bill and I want to reinforce some of its intentions. Everyone in the House thinks green belt land is precious and we have a duty to protect it for future generations. We all accept that unchecked urbanisation will lead to a steady eradication of both our forests and our green fields, and I am sure that we would all like to improve the speed and effectiveness with which local authorities can act when planning laws are flouted.
The local authority for my constituency is Bromley council, where I have spent some time with Bob McQuillan, the chief planning officer. I asked him what we could do and he suggested that anything that expedited responses to planning violations would be a great help. After all, only 150 yards from Parliament we see real difficulties in planning enforcement. The struggle by the authorities to move protestors has been a running saga for 10 years, and they were still there for the royal wedding on Friday. Surely we can do better than that.
Clearly, many problems relate to green belt infringements by members of the travelling community, and that is sometimes a particular problem in the Beckenham constituency. Of course the vast majority of people obey the law, but a small minority of Travellers and other itinerants often pay scant regard to it. That creates a perception that almost all who travel the roads behave illegally.
Our community relations between the settled population and the travelling community are often fractious, and that tension is only heightened when people see Travellers arrive illegally on green belt land. The settled community, after all, must jump through all the hoops of the planning process to obtain planning permission, even just for an extension. The same rule should apply to everyone in this country.
In my constituency there are several problem areas: for example, the entrance to St John’s church in Wickham court and the former All Saints school on Layhams road. Travellers have stopped there too often—three times in the past year. This is private land owned by the Roman Catholic and Church of England Southwark dioceses, and although the council and the police try their best, responsibility falls on the landowners to take action.
This problem is a continual one for many Members of the House, and particularly in my constituency for Councillors Anne Manning, Graham Arthur and Neil Reddin. Other places in my constituency have suffered too, such as Hayes lane, at the entrance to Norman park, and Pickhurst green. Norman park and Pickhurst green are council owned. Measures to restrict entrance have now been put in place and might deter illegal trespassing—a height barrier has been erected at Norman park and a gate at Pickhurst green. The problem is that local people have to deal with illegal sites. They have to foot the bill to remove the litter and rubbish and they have to pay for barriers, height restrictions or gates. Perhaps most importantly, there is a psychological impact when people wake up to discover Travellers parked right on their doorstep.
The previous Government were criticised by many local authorities for their circular 01/06, which compelled local authorities to build, sometimes on green belt land, and to engage in compulsory purchasing. The circular seemed to favour Travellers over the local settled community, and its contents have been used time and again at hearings to prevent enforcement. I am very pleased to hear that the Government are revoking circular 01/06 as part of the new planning guidance proposed by the Communities and Local Government Secretary.
What sort of changes to the law on the unauthorised development of green belt and greenfield land would I like to see enacted? Let me give two examples that I hope to see in the Localism Bill. First, I would like the options available to those who offend to be reduced. They should be able either to appeal against an enforcement notice or to apply for retrospective planning permission, but they should not be able to do both. Secondly, there should also be a time limit, of perhaps 28 days, in which appeal decisions should be made. These problems are not easy to address, but the law should be on the side of those who obey it. In short, I should like to see powers for dealing with planning violations strengthened and speeded up. I commend this Bill to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Ordered,
That Bob Stewart, Stuart Andrew, Thomas Docherty, Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson, Stephen Gilbert, Karen Lumley, Sheryll Murray, Priti Patel, Mr Dominic Raab and Iain Stewart present the Bill.
Bob Stewart accordingly presented the Bill.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 9 September, and to be printed (Bill 184).
Finance (No. 3) Bill
(13 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
22:05 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 153 / Noes: 296 - Question accordingly negatived.
12:05 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 121 / Noes: 277 - Question accordingly negatived.
02:55 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 27 / Noes: 253 - Question accordingly negatived.
03:07 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 251 / Noes: 8 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)
I beg to move amendment 9, page 41, line 27, at end add—
‘(2) The Chancellor shall review the bank levy and publish a report, before 31 December 2011, on—
(a) the Government’s analysis behind the rate and threshold chosen for the bank levy;
(b) the adequacy of the bank levy in the context of other reforms to the wider banking system; and
(c) the total tax revenues expected from banks across all categories of taxation in each year from 2011-12 to 2016-17.’.
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)
With this it will be convenient to discuss clause stand part.
Chris Leslie
We find ourselves in the Committee stage of the Finance Bill, a rather large two-volume measure that, over the coming two days on the Floor of the House, we will no doubt explore in some detail. The Bill will then progress upstairs to Committee, where more detailed scrutiny will take place.
It is a peculiarity of Ways and Means resolutions and of the way in which proposed finance legislation is scrutinised in the House of Commons that hon. Members who are not Ministers may not table amendments to Finance Bills that would have the effect of raising the level of taxation. That was news to me, perhaps because I was in government and did not think about tabling such amendments, but the rules of order are as they are, so the amendment does not propose—because we cannot—an increase in the rate of the bank levy. Instead, it calls for a review of the rate and the general approach to bank taxation adopted by the Treasury. It seeks to look into the rationale behind the rate that the Treasury has chosen for the bank levy and why a number of other choices were made.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
Does my hon. Friend agree that in setting the rate the Government missed an opportunity? The bank levy could have raised significant sums to help with the other policies that we hoped they might pursue.
Chris Leslie
Indeed. Were it possible under the rules of order for the Opposition to table an amendment to increase the bank levy rate, we probably would have done so. However, we were unable to do so because of the slightly arcane rules of order. We need to examine the rationale behind the rate chosen by the Minister and understand why the Government moved from a threshold approach to triggering the bank levy, to a tax-free allowance of a certain amount before which banks would pay against the chargeable liabilities of the bank levy.
We also need to understand whether the bank levy is, as my hon. Friend suggests, an adequate step when considered in the context of the wider economy and public finances. Ultimately, we need to understand whether the Treasury is being straight with the public and honest about the taxes that the banks will pay over the years ahead. We have debated the Government’s approach to the banking sector before, and we look forward to the final report of the Vickers commission on the state of competition and regulation of the banks so that never again can these institutions take such extreme risks and gambles that land in the lap of the taxpayer when the going gets tough, as they did before the credit crunch.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
The Government are seeking to take £2.5 billion in revenue from the tax that they have imposed, but has my hon. Friend assessed the corporation tax reductions that the banks will experience, which are thought to be £100 million this year? Has he projected the figure by the end of the Parliament? Can we arrive at a net figure to see the real impact of the Government’s policy?
Chris Leslie
My hon. Friend makes an extremely prescient intervention, because the Chancellor, under pressure from the Opposition, had to cave in to a concession on corporation tax in the March Budget. The Government announced the bank levy last June, so we knew that they would be introducing this tax, yet the corporation tax cuts will clearly benefit the banks significantly. The Treasury claims that in the March Budget it offset the benefit that the banks will apparently get as a result of the reduction in corporation tax rates, but we will have to wait to see whether the slight increase in the bank levy—around £100 million—introduced in the Budget will be sufficient to offset the full corporation tax cuts that the banks will enjoy over the lifetime of this Parliament. I recall that the written answer to a question I tabled on the predicted benefits to the banks of the corporation tax reductions suggested that that would be about £100 million in year one, £200 million in year two, £300 million in year three, and so on, but that largely reflects the reductions in corporation tax rates. That is something of a moot point, because we contend that the design of the bank levy is insufficient. Today’s debate should provide an opportunity to seek proper redress for the crisis and ensure that we put the banks on a fair tax basis, but that is not what the Government are seeking with this pathetically small bank levy proposal.
Chris Leslie
It is indeed, and that is the crux of the argument that we will make to try to encourage hon. Members to support our amendment. The overall situation is that taxation levels on the banks are reducing, not increasing. The previous Administration introduced a bank bonus tax, which yielded more than £3 billion in revenue. The bank levy needs to be put in place alongside a bank bonus tax, which would be a fairer approach to take. However, the Government are refusing to continue the bank bonus tax, and I would like to hear their rationale for not doing so.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
In defending the bank bonus tax and the revenue that would have been raised by continuing with it, what allowance has the hon. Gentleman made for increasing levels of legal tax avoidance by those no doubt skilful bankers who would have been keen to avoid paying tax under that regime?
Chris Leslie
If the reason the hon. Gentleman refuses to advocate a repeat of the bonus tax is that the bankers might have sophisticated accountants who can avoid it, that is a pretty poor state of affairs for this Parliament. We ought to be introducing fair and just taxation on the obscenely high bonuses that are still being paid. Even though it is supposedly claimed in Project Merlin that the bonus pot has come down by 8%, we can see that the bonuses are absolutely enormous. Today’s debate is clearly about priorities. The Government are not on the side of families, teachers, nurses, working people or pensioners. Clause 72 shows that they are on the side of the highest-earning bankers who receive each year in bonuses sums that ordinary people dream of winning on the lottery once in a lifetime.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
Would my hon. Friend be interested, as I am, to find out exactly what the financial value is to the financial services sector of the now implicit Government guarantee that it enjoys? If anything, that should point us towards greater recompense to the taxpayer for that implicit Government guarantee.
Chris Leslie
The ongoing implicit taxpayer guarantee for the banks is very significant. Indeed, I understand that the Bank of England has suggested in its financial stability reports that an implied subsidy of about £100 billion each year offers a safety net for the profitability of the banks. Without that taxpayer guarantee, banks’ borrowing costs would be higher, they would not be able to make such great profits and, therefore, their remuneration and bonuses could not be so high. Many bonuses and excessive profits are being made on the back of the taxpayer, but does that encourage the Treasury to take action? It certainly does not.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
At a time when Roger Bootle of Deloitte reports that for the first time for four years in a row the real incomes of real people are falling, does my hon. Friend not think it particularly peculiar that the real incomes of bankers—of all people—are likely to rise?
Chris Leslie
My hon. Friend is entirely right, and that is why we have to take a step back and look at the context of today’s debate. The Government are clearly still on the side of the big banks at a time not just when the living standards and wages of ordinary people are being frozen or reduced, but when vital public services are being slashed. Indeed, it is worth reminding ourselves of the consequences of the cuts that the Government are pursuing.
Teaching assistants, youth workers, library staff and lollipop ladies are being made redundant; binmen, street cleaners, environmental health officers and park keepers are disappearing from our neighbourhoods; police detectives, forensic scientists, 999 operatives and police community support officers are no longer affordable in the fight against crime; and hospital cleaners, nurses, paramedics and ward clerks are having their posts eradicated when the NHS needs them more than ever. How dare Ministers say that we are all in this together when they take such a weak and feeble approach to the banks.
Barry Gardiner
My hon. Friend seeks to use an argument based on contrast, but there is also an argument based on causality. In his remarks, it has to be made clear that the causal relationship between the misery that some people will suffer over the next few years and the actions of some bankers is very real. There is real disquiet in the House about the Government’s proposal not just because some people are doing well and some are doing less well, but because, given that contrast, there is a causal relationship for those people doing badly.
Chris Leslie
Absolutely, and, as we have heard time and again, Government Members clearly do not understand the causes of the deficit, so they are not the right people to solve it. If they understood and acknowledged that the banks played a significant role in causing the deficit, maybe—just maybe—we would take up their suggestions on how we go forward, but they choose to ignore the role that the banks played—[Laughter.] If the hon. Members for Chippenham (Duncan Hames) and for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) think that the banks did not play a role in the deficit, we will all be interested to hear from them, but surely they have to acknowledge that point.
The bonus pools and pots continue to be significant, however, and some bankers receive obscene, life-changing sums of money, so we do not really need to worry too much about poor banking executives; we should worry about those who depend on vital services but will now go without as a result of Ministers’ choices.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
I have only just understood the criticism from Government Members. The criticism of the bankers bonus levy, however, which the previous Government introduced, was that there would be tax avoidance and it would not raise enough. I attacked the former Chancellor on the bonus levy, because I felt that his estimate of £500 million was pathetic and did not go far enough, but may I now admit guilt? It actually raised seven times that amount, £3.5 billion, so it was probably one of most successful tax regimes that the previous Government introduced. I thought I had better get that off my chest.
Chris Leslie
My hon. Friend’s arguments become increasingly attractive, and he makes an important point. The bank bonus tax, which the previous Labour Government introduced, appeared at first to be modest, but in fact the yield was very significant indeed. Did the banks collapse as a result of the bonus levy? No. Did they all flee abroad to relocate somewhere else, as threatened? Absolutely not. So, too, with the continuing scale of the bonus pot, which has hardly changed at all, it is absolutely right that we look to reinstitute the levy this year, along with a decent bank levy, as we are discussing today.
Hon. Members will know that the concept of a bank levy was first developed at the G20 summit in Pittsburgh in 2009, and then championed by my right hon. Friend the former Prime Minister and taken forward by the International Monetary Fund in its report, which aimed to encourage less risky funding to enhance financial stability. Two broad conclusions were reached at the Pittsburgh summit. There was a call for a financial activities tax, or financial transactions tax, which we need to debate another time when we consider some of the extra levies that might be put on activities. The Chancellor of the Exchequer himself still professes to be in favour of a financial activities tax, although he has done absolutely nothing to advocate it in ECOFIN or in other financial meetings around the world, so we will see whether anything comes of his repeated promises to pursue it.
The second prong of the IMF’s report was a financial stability contribution, otherwise known as a bank levy, to be charged on equities and liabilities rather than assets or profits because of the need to disincentivise dangerous potential charges such as those that landed on the taxpayer during the credit crunch. The bank levy is a sensible idea in theory, and we broadly support it. However, the yield suggested in the Bill—only £2.6 billion—is not just small but pathetic by international standards when compared with the rate being pursued in other countries. It is perplexing that Ministers settled on that figure, and there has never been any evidential basis published for why they did so. Will the Minister clarify why the Chancellor chose the figure of £2.6 billion, as that seems to be the pole around which all aspects of the bank levy revolve? If there is any sense in which the revenue might go beyond that envelope, the Treasury tweaks and turns down the dials on the other aspects of the levy to squeeze it back into that £2.6 billion of revenue—the predetermined level that it put out to consultation last summer, never explaining why it was set. Compared with the substantial amounts of taxpayers’ money put up in the bail-out of the banks—£76 billion of shares purchased in the Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds, £250 billion of guarantees, another £280 billion of other insurances, and a further £100 billion of annual implied subsidy, according to the Bank of England—a £2.6 billion bank levy is very puny.
It is interesting to look at the Treasury document that lists the respondents to the bank levy consultation. There were 44 respondents, all of which are major financial institutions.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban)
Did the hon. Gentleman respond?
Chris Leslie
I will respond to the Minister when I have heard his comments. If he wants me to respond again, I am more than happy to have Government time dedicated to the general principles of bank taxation.
The responses showed that the Treasury’s original design for the bank levy had a threshold that triggered payment of the levy for any organisations, institutions or banks with more than £20 billion of equity and liabilities. Ministers realised that that would yield £3.9 billion—nearly £1.5 billion more than the Treasury had expected—which, by the way, would be more than enough to reverse all their police funding cuts, for example. What did the Chancellor do when he realised that the Treasury’s own design for the bank levy could yield £3.9 billion? Did Ministers think that this might be something they should go ahead with? Absolutely not—they gave in, capitulated, and converted the threshold into a tax-free allowance of £20 billion. Hon. Members will know that the Liberal Democrats have long made great play of the increase in personal allowances, which is pretty much the only thing they are getting out of the coalition as they cling on to it, and there might be a few hundred pounds in that here and there. How about having a tax free allowance of £20 billion? That is what they have decided to give the banks. The banks now do not need to pay on their liabilities below that amount.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
Would my hon. Friend also contrast that with the £7 billion that banks and financial institutions are paying out this year in bonuses?
Chris Leslie
Indeed; the machine rolls on. We will have to look at the detailed papers on Project Merlin when they emerge. The Chancellor supposedly persuaded the banking sector to change its ways. Of course, things have fallen apart at the seams since then. As I will say in a moment, some of the bonuses are still, frankly, obscene.
If we accept the Government’s ludicrous argument that they were worried about the cliff-edge marginal rate of the levy at £20 billion of chargeable liabilities, why did they not keep that trigger but have a smaller allowance, perhaps of £10 billion or smaller? But no; they caved in straight away with the £20 billion allowance and lost a phenomenal opportunity to redress the balance of the tax burden in this country. The Americans, who have not yet triggered their bank levy, have named their version a financial crisis responsibility fee. That says more accurately on the tin what it does. They have done so because it is incumbent on the institutions that caused the crisis and the consequential fiscal deficit to do their duty and pay back what they owe the taxpayer.
Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab)
Is it not amazing that we are talking about a minute bank levy when hundreds of thousands of public sector workers will lose their jobs, and when those who stay in their jobs will see their pay frozen for two years and their pension contributions go up by 50%, all as a result of the failure of the banks? The Government parties think that that is okay.
Chris Leslie
It is a crying shame that there will not be more publicity for this debate; perhaps the complexity of bank taxation is difficult to report, for whatever reason. If people knew about the Government’s weakness in trying to claw back the money that is owed to the taxpayer and their enthusiasm for cutting public services and raising taxes on ordinary people, they would see that it is a scandal.
Chris Leslie
Of course, the Liberal Democrats advocated the opposite of that before the general election. Obviously they had good, sound reasons to change their view rapidly over a weekend.
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
Will the shadow Minister say how much tax he thinks should be imposed on the banks, and how he would go about doing it?
Chris Leslie
As I said, we would repeat the bank bonus tax that we instituted last year, and we think that the bank levy needs to be more substantial.
The Government’s original design suggested that it would yield £3.9 billion—that was reported in The Observer, I think, back in November. Of course, that was why they panicked and decided that they would have to go back down to the £2.5 billion or £2.6 billion level. They stepped away from that original yield level.
Of course, we are not the Government; we are the Opposition, and we are not even allowed under the rules of order to table our suggested variants of the rate of the levy or the design of the clause. All that we can do for now is advocate a fairly urgent review of the general levels of bank taxation in this country.
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
Is not the irony, when comparing pay cuts in the public sector with bankers’ bonuses, that in effect some bankers are public sector workers because the taxpayer has had to bail them out? Does my hon. Friend agree that if we mainly own a bank, such bonuses should not be paid while the bank is still in deficit?
Chris Leslie
It is absolutely mystifying. There is a sense that the shareholder—the taxpayer—somehow has to allow all sorts of activity to take place as though it was nothing to do with them, even though those banks would not exist had we not intervened to save them. That shows the incredibly laissez-faire, hands-off attitude of Ministers, who are the shareholders of the banks making large awards.
Mr Kevan Jones
Does my hon. Friend agree that my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) is being a little unfair? Bankers are taking their share of pain. I understand that Eric Daniels, the outgoing chief executive of Lloyds bank, is getting only £1.4 million in bonus rather than £2.3 million.
Chris Leslie
I wonder whether Hansard is able to record the irony in my hon. Friend’s comments. Sometimes I wonder whether we need a new annotation in our proceedings, because I do not honestly think that he is showing sympathy. I think he is suggesting that even when there is an apparent reduction in bonuses, the sums of money involved are the sort for which our constituents would buy a lottery ticket in the hope of winning. If they won that amount it would change their lives tremendously, yet those life-changing sums of money are not even salaries but bonuses on top of salaries.
I wish to talk about the rate at which the Government have chosen to set the bank levy, because it is a low rate by international standards. It is less than a third of the level that has been set in France, for example. Ministers will know that the rate varies in a number of jurisdictions, but I think that it is 0.25% in France. The levels involved are still quite small, but in Hungary it is 0.53%, in the USA it is 0.15%—although, as I said, it has not been enacted at this point—in Portugal it is 0.1%, and so on. It is to be only 0.078% here in the UK for short-term liabilities, and 0.039% for long-term liabilities, which is very small by international standards.
John McDonnell
To emphasise a point that my hon. Friend made earlier, does he agree that the robustness of the statements of the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister on bankers’ bonuses before and just after the election led the general population to expect a much stronger and more ferocious levy?
Chris Leslie
Indeed, and not only can we see the low yield figures in this country; we can also look at international comparisons and see that the rate is clearly very low indeed. Ministers have let it drift—as soon as it looks as though it might be a serious tax, back they come from the rate they have set, saying that it would raise too much and they must reduce it again.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
Many contributions have shown that the shade of the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable) is noticeable by its absence.
With the exception of the National Bank of Cuba when it was governed by Ernesto “Che” Guevara, can my hon. Friend think of any example of any country where the bankers have recoiled from the brutal fiscal hammering imposed upon them by a state legislature and taken their toys and left? Is there any such country in the history of the world that he could mention?
Chris Leslie
In financial services it is called regulatory arbitrage. People come up with terminology that makes things sound mystical and obscure, but regulatory arbitrage is basically the threat to leave the country that is often peddled when a bank does not like proposals. We have heard such threats time and again, but they are not carried out, because banks locate in this country for reasons other than taxation. We have Greenwich mean time and the civilised rule of law, and any number of decent public services that bankers themselves like to enjoy.
Chris Leslie
And royal weddings, as my hon. Friend suggests. This is a great place to do business, and the small changes in taxation that the Opposition advocate are certainly not enough to send banks abroad.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
In the spirit of helpfulness, the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) might be interested to know that in Sweden the banking sector diminished following the introduction of such measures.
Chris Leslie
Even the Swedish advocate a bank levy, and we must acknowledge that the alternative financial changes are being made in a number of jurisdictions across the world. Obviously, the more jurisdictions in which such measures are pursued, the better, because that will remove the argument on regulatory arbitrage.
However, it is worth looking at the pathology and history of the bank levy, and at how the Chancellor has tweaked the rate. The Government pull back from a higher rate when they think it is too much, but sometimes the Chancellor gets into hot water and feels the need to change that approach. On the fateful morning of 8 February, at 7.30, the Chancellor went on the “Today” programme and announced a mini-Budget. It just so happened, by pure coincidence, that that was on the day of Treasury questions, when he was struggling with the banks in the negotiations on the damp squib that was Project Merlin. While we are on Project Merlin, we should not let go the opportunity to note that borrowing is increasingly expensive for small and medium-sized enterprises, and that according to the most recent data, there is less and not more availability.
The Chancellor changed the rate again in the March Budget, when, as I said, the Government were forced into a U-turn in the face of criticism of the reductions in corporation tax. That would have been a massive cash-back bonanza for the banks—it could still turn out that way, but we must wait for the final figures. At no point during the design of the bank levy have the Government said why they are capping revenues at just £2.6 billion. What is their fixation with that yield?
Mr Love
Before my hon. Friend moves off the subject of Project Merlin, does he agree that it was more than pathetic that, after telling the banks that they would increase the banking levy unless the banks came up with the goods, the Government made a pipsqueak change which did not rise to the occasion?
Chris Leslie
Absolutely. I cannot figure out why the Government refused to go beyond that £2.5 billion or £2.6 billion. That is a strange way to design a tax. Normally, a Government would think about whether the rate set was fair and just, and about the requirement for revenue yield, and they might even analyse the effect of the levy in a regulatory impact assessment or whatever. However, at no point have the Government said why they are reluctant to go beyond that £2.6 billion. Perhaps there has been a deal behind the scenes between the Chancellor and the banks, but if there has been such a deal, it is probably the only one that he has been able to reach.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
I think that my hon. Friend is referring in particular to part 2 of schedule 19, which hangs off the clauses we are debating, and which contains a seven-step guide that actually has an extra step that does not apply in some cases. Is that not the most complicated way ever in legislation of determining a charge? Why does it need to be so complicated?
Chris Leslie
The Minister needs to answer that question. Hon. Members might care to turn to page 297 of the Bill. The steps might at first appear quite straightforward, but then we get to this odd provision in paragraph 7, with its proportions X, Y and Z of various different amounts and so on. I understand that that provision is triggered because the Treasury has to recoup retrospectively some of the money taken, since the Chancellor tweaked the levels of tax on 8 February and again in March. It therefore becomes incredibly complex and difficult to hold to account. The design of the bank levy has not been made easy by the Chancellor’s decisions.
Mr Love
On the intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), is it not rather strange, given that the Chancellor has set up an Office of Tax Simplification and announced as his first measure in the Budget that he wanted to put the principle of simplification at the forefront of tax consideration, that here we have something that is almost as complex as it gets?
Chris Leslie
As I said, the reason for the complexity is that all the variables in the design of the bank levy have to be amended because the Treasury wants to squash it around that figure of £2.5 billion or £2.6 billion of revenue. In other words, the whole of the bank levy is being driven by that particular sum, which is a very odd way of designing a tax.
Chris Bryant
In fact, there are not just one or even two different rates being introduced—which one might understand, given the difference between long term and short term—but 10, each of which will undoubtedly pay for thousands of accountants, as they crawl over what counts in each category. Surely that is nonsensical and an example of the kind of legislation that banks which might want to stay in this country will abhor.
Chris Leslie
Far be it from me to defend the poor banks in their compliance with the provisions, but obviously the more the compliance costs go up, the higher the likelihood that customers will end up footing the bill of taking on accountants to address the complexity of what should be a simple banking levy. Whether there are two rates or 10, however, all the rates in the bank levy are far too generous and far too low.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
I do not know whether Ministers have published the change to HMRC staffing needed to deal with these complex provisions. One would think that more staff will be needed, but my understanding is that staffing at the Revenue is being reduced.
Chris Leslie
Staffing at HM Revenue and Customs is under incredible pressures. Indeed, there have been a number of redundancies and posts lost. It has not been explained where the extra resources will come from to ensure that the bank levy, in all its complexity, can be enforced adequately. Again, the Minister needs to say what extra capacity HMRC will have to implement this increasingly complex bank levy.
Chris Leslie
In a moment, but I need to make some progress.
I understand that there is a difference between short-term and long-term liabilities. However, what will be the impact on businesses in the real economy if short-term liabilities are less attractive to major banks? For example, if a small firm has a bank deposit of over £100,000—to protect its cash flow or whatever—that happens to be above the level of the deposit guarantee scheme, what is to stop the banks raising their bank charges on SME deposit accounts to try to divest themselves of such short-term liabilities? That is an important point, because there will be consequences from the design of the bank levy. I would like the Minister to explain to the Committee why short-term liabilities and long-term liabilities have been divided in that way.
Can the Minister explain the position on the reported legal challenge under European Union law, which I understand many in the banking community are watching carefully? The Hungarian Government have introduced a levy on their energy and telecoms sectors. I understand that a case has been taken—or is due to be taken—to the European Court to claim that a levy on a specific sector of the economy is somehow unfair or not possible. To what extent is the Minister confident that the case will not have a bearing on the implementation of a banking levy here in the UK?
I would also be grateful if the Minister could answer the question about complexity and opacity in the bank levy accounting systems. As I understand it, overseas banks can sometimes not use IFRS—international financial reporting standards. If those banks do not use them, they will need to re-compute their chargeable equity and liabilities with reference to the UK’s GAAP—generally accepted accounting principles—or IFRS, in other words, by preparing a notional consolidation under those systems, including for branches. Is that anticipated to create a problem? What do the Government foresee as a solution to that level? Obviously we have banks that cross jurisdictions and use a series of different accounting platforms, so I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify some of the comments that have been made about that.
However, it is the Government’s general approach to banks and banking taxation that concerns many hon. Members—a general approach that, as we know, is quite woeful. Hon. Members have already raised their concerns about some of the bonuses that we have seen and the breathtaking behaviour that the banks have engaged in, even though they were the root cause of the credit crunch.
That makes the Government’s tax giveaway to the banks even more staggering. The post-Budget reaction last June, when the bank levy was announced, was indeed positive from the bankers themselves. They enjoyed the Government’s decisions on the bank levy. One commentator said:
“We’d expect most domestically-orientated banks…to be better off after four years than they were pre-Budget”,
and a City insider said that
“some banks will have a feeling of glee at the way this has worked out”.
Clearly, we need to advocate a bank bonus tax to raise £3.5 billion, as it did before. That deserves to be repeated this year. Even if it were to raise just £2 billion, that would make a massive difference to our society and our economy. For example, we have calculated that such an amount could be used to establish a youth jobs fund—using a similar model to the future jobs fund, which this Government have abolished—creating 90,000 new youth jobs at a time when youth unemployment is close to 1 million, with one in five young people on the dole.
That money could also help to construct 25,000 new homes for low-cost home ownership and affordable social renting. That would create tens of thousands of jobs in the construction industry and new apprenticeships alongside them. The money could also provide £200 million of funding for the regional growth fund, the Government’s rather lamentable replacement for the regional development agency funding. That could help to provide for regional projects and promote growth. The Government’s changes represent a two-thirds cut on the previous funding, and the first wave of £450 million in grants was several times oversubscribed with bids. We therefore need to revisit the regional growth fund, and a repeat of the bank bonus tax could support that.
The bonuses being paid are still vast; they remain at eye-watering levels. Despite the smoke and mirrors of Project Merlin, in which Ministers broke their promises to take action despite the warm words in the coalition agreement, the bonuses remain high. Let us just remind ourselves of what the coalition agreement promised. The Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats said:
“We will bring forward detailed proposals for robust action to tackle unacceptable bonuses in the financial services sector; in developing these proposals, we will ensure they are effective in reducing risk.”
That is on page 9 of the agreement, right up front among the promises that the coalition made.
The Government could not even bring themselves to promote the basic transparency that we expect when it comes to bonuses and remuneration. The most that they could extract voluntarily from the banks in Project Merlin was an agreement to report anonymously on the total remuneration of the five highest paid senior executives of the bank, excluding board members. That is a weak and shameful compromise. The Government are not even forcing the banks to disclose all bonuses above £1 million, even though Labour’s legislation allows them to do so. That provision is already on the statute book.
Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab)
Will my hon. Friend return briefly to the alternative uses to which that £2 billion could be put—the very low figure that the re-imposition of our levy would yield? As a result of the abolition of the Advantage West Midlands regional development agency, the funding for the west midlands has been cut by nearly 70%, and the outlook for my constituents in Coventry is very poor indeed. The additional funds could be used for investment in the proposed NUCKLE—the Nuneaton, Coventry, Kenilworth, and Leamington—railway line, and a host of other important development projects that have been put on hold or simply thrown out as a result of that 70% cut. In the west midlands, and in Coventry in particular, unemployment levels are rising disproportionately compared with the rest of the country, and the level of output is dropping disproportionately in a key area that is vital to the eventual resurgence of manufacturing that we want to see. That money could be put to great use in the regional development fund.
Chris Leslie
My hon. Friend is entirely correct. As I have said before, this shows the failure of the Government to understand the paradox of austerity. When they take away some of that vital investment that would support jobs and growth, they are fuelling unemployment and raising welfare bills, which will cost the country more in the long run. That is why we are seeing borrowing levels rising rather than falling, and why, in the last six months of the economic experience in this country, we have seen economic growth flatlining. The House of Commons Library tells me that that will cost the Exchequer an extra £6 billion that will need to be added to borrowing. So this is the fallacy that the Government pursue—that simply cutting all elements of public investment is the way out of the deficit. They just do not understand how the economy works.
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
Following up that point, this applies to investment not just in manufacturing, but in services, too. Yorkshire Forward had decided to make two investments: one of £5 million to help enable the National Railway museum to redisplay its collection; and a £1 million grant towards the cost of restoring York Minster’s great east window. Why did it do this? Because it realised that the additional tourism generated would create many jobs, particularly for people without high skill levels, in the York economy. When I raised this matter with the Minister, I was encouraged to get the National Railway museum to apply for the regional growth fund, which, with help from his Department, it did—yet it has received not a penny.
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. Before the hon. Gentleman responds, may I remind Members that interventions are supposed to be brief—not mini-speeches in their own right? There will be plenty of opportunity to join in the debate later.
Chris Leslie
Thank you, Ms Primarolo. Notwithstanding your strictures, that was an incredibly important intervention from my hon. Friend, who is correct, particularly in his assessment of the attractions of York as a destination for tourism, which was of course helped by the investment that the previous Administration put into some of those key elements within his constituency. I do not want to be diverted, however, as time is short and we need to focus on the amendment.
The amendment relates to the level of the bank levy in the context of bank taxation and the bonus culture. As I said, the Government could not even bring themselves to have transparency on what the bonuses were, let alone take action against them. However, we know some things about the realities of bank bonuses today, and the figures are truly astonishing. From the limited disclosure that we have seen, we know that in 2010, John Varley, the former chief executive of Barclays, received a £2.2 million bonus; Stuart Gulliver, the chief executive of HSBC, received only £5.2 million in bonuses; Stephen Hester, the chief executive of RBS—wholly owned by the taxpayer, by the way—got £2 million in bonuses; and Eric Daniels, the chief executive of Lloyds, largely owned by the taxpayer, got £1.45 million in bonuses. Let us not forget Bob Diamond, the chief executive of Barclays since January this year, who received £6.5 million in bonuses in 2010. He was head of Barclays investment banking before that and perhaps his bonus relates to that. Poor old Bob Diamond, however, loses out in the bonus bonanza when compared with the top two managers at Barclays: Tom Kalaris received a cool £10.9 million in salary and bonuses in 2010 and its other top manager received a tidy £10.6 million.
Ms Primarolo, can you guess the name of that other top manager at Barclays? His name is Rich Ricci—and I kid you not! It would be the stuff of a Dickensian novel if it did not sound so far fetched, but it is indeed true. Between them, the top five earners at Barclays—including Mr Rich Ricci, but excluding executive directors—received more than £38 million in salary and bonuses in 2010 alone.
Mr Kevan Jones
I agree with my hon. Friend how mind-boggling the amounts are that these individuals receive. It makes one wonder what they do with the money. Was he shocked, as I was, to learn that more than 50% of donations to the Conservative party last year came from the City, including large donations from individuals such as Jeremy Isaacs, the former head of Lehman Brothers Europe, who donated £190,000?
Chris Leslie
“But surely that is a complete coincidence”, he said ironically! I do not know whether my hon. Friend was making the point that this is payback time, but the level of these bonuses is incredible.
Let me finish my point about Barclays. I was saying that £38 million in bonuses and salaries went to just the top five earners. That is enough money to pay the wages of more than 1,000 qualified nurses in our NHS. That gives some meaning to the scale—enough money to pay for 1,000 qualified nurses.
Chris Leslie
Absolutely; but, quite apart from the obscenity of the scale of some of those bonuses, there is a hard-headed economic rationale for more transparency. If shareholders cannot see what senior executives in the banking sector are being paid, that indicates a dysfunction in the corporate governance of the banks, and if the bonus pots of certain executives are being swelled by their behaviour—by the choices that they make and the risks that they are taking—perhaps those were some of the antecedents of the credit crunch. We need transparency to prevent us from repeating the problems that occurred in 2008.
Helen Goodman
Surely, in the case of banks in which the Government were a major shareholder, they had an opportunity to deal with the situation as shareholders.
Chris Leslie
It is the inactivity of the Government, as the shareholder, that perplexes me. Ministers laugh with scorn at the idea that they, with the stewardship of the taxpayer’s share, should take any action in regard to the current activity of the banks. If the Minister wishes to intervene on the specific issue of his inactivity as a shareholder I shall be more than happy to give way to him, but he clearly does not wish to say anything at this stage.
Chris Leslie
That is one of the issues to which we shall have to return, perhaps in the Public Bill Committee. The banks are a social necessity—a utility, as it were—in our society, and whatever we think of their behaviour, it is necessary for them to exist to provide the credit that is required to keep the engine of the economy moving. We do not need a dysfunctional banking system; we need a functioning banking system that faces much more towards its customers. We need to stand up for the taxpayer interest, but also for the consumer interest, which must include businesses.
The bonus and remuneration projections are not diminishing, as the Government like to suggest. The Centre for Economics and Business Research recently released an estimate that, whereas bonus payouts in the City for 2010-11 were 8% lower than those for 2009-10—down from “only” £7.3 billion to £6.7 billion—they are forecast to rise from that level to £7.2 billion in 2011-12. The apparent fall in bonuses is largely offset by a 7% increase in the salaries of senior bank executives. So bonuses fall by 8%, and salaries rise by 7%. Obviously that pay rise outstrips pay rises in virtually every other sector of the economy.
Alison McGovern
Does my hon. Friend agree that for the financial services sector it is apparently business as usual, whereas for my constituents, who have seen pay held down and prices high, it is far from business as usual and incredibly tough?
Chris Leslie
Indeed, and I think it important for us to convince the Government of the need to act. I look forward to hearing the Minister demonstrate that he will stand up to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. We know that he is not a patsy in the Treasury. He is a senior figure there, and he is able to show the Chancellor that the House of Commons was determined to send the Treasury the message that we do not accept its policies on bonuses and bank taxation.
Mr Anderson
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. He is being very generous.
UK Financial Investments, the Treasury body that manages the state’s role in the Royal Bank of Scotland, gave its approval for Stephen Hester’s package, which included £1.2 million in basic pay, a £2 million bonus, and share options that could amount to £4.5 million. It has already given in.
Chris Leslie
Again, I think that we need to engage in a proper debate about corporate governance of the state-owned banks. It is important for us to understand the potential powers that Ministers have, and the consequences of their choosing not to exercise those powers. If they choose to approve a certain level of remuneration, that constitutes intervention just as much as disapproval does.
Chris Leslie
May I make a little progress? Time is short.
As a result of European Union reforms championed by Labour Members of the European Parliament who tried their best to restrain some of the excess, some bank bonuses must now be deferred and given in the form of shares. Bankers cannot take them in cash immediately. However, the Minister needs to explain why he is counteracting those bonus deferral arrangements by introducing a loophole in new section 554H, in schedule 2, allowing a concession to bankers whose bonuses are paid largely in the form of shares rather than cash. Rather than having to pay the tax at the point at which the bonus is awarded, they will need only to pay it on a date down the line when the shares are sold, possibly avoiding the current 50p rate of tax. The Sunday Times wrote about that last weekend. There is speculation that the Chancellor will cut the 50p rate at some point, and that, as a result of the Minister’s reforms, bankers will be allowed to wait and to avoid it. Can the Minister explain why he has made that valuable concession?
Barry Gardiner
Will my hon. Friend clarify the chronology? Subsection (1)(d) of new section 554H states that the section applies if
“the vesting date is not more than five years after the award date”.
Does he believe that the Government are certain to reduce the 50p rate within the lifetime of this Parliament?
Chris Leslie
I do not know whether we have to hope that the Liberal Democrats will take strong action before that moment comes—I do not know whether that is an oxymoron—but the Government have dangled the prospect of a tax cut for only the very richest people. It is interesting that they are designing the Bill’s provisions to allow the potential avoidance of the 50p rate following what I considered to be a fairly positive change at European level to defer bonuses in an attempt to discourage short-term high-risk activities.
Chris Bryant
I understand my hon. Friend’s point and I disagree with what the Government are doing, but I suspect that he is wrong. I suspect that the Government will not obtain the tax take that they will need over the next few years. Because of the way in which they are managing the economy—because of the profound risks that they are taking with the economy—there is no chance that they will introduce tax cuts of any kind before the next general election unless they also engage in another massive round of cuts in public services.
Chris Leslie
However, the alacrity and, almost, relish with which the Government have introduced some of their spending cuts make me wonder whether their rewards for the bankers constitute a payback for the cover to get stuck into public investment in the way that they always wanted to do, and for which purpose many of them came into politics.
The bank levy is a weak response to the debts that banks owe the taxpayer. The Government say that they want a big society, but they are happy to see public investment shrink and rewards for banks grow, built on the backs of taxpayers. It is a big society if you are a banker, but a very small society if you are not. Our amendment would at least make the Government pause and reflect on their increasingly untenable position—we hear that they are good at pausing and reflecting—and I urge Members to support it.
Mr Redwood
I listened carefully to the shadow Minister’s speech, and it is quite true that the public mood is one of wishing to see both a just return on its forced investment in the banking industry and the banking sector—particularly the state-owned and subsidised banking sector—making its contribution to the recovery, in view of what happened in 2008 and 2009.
I remember in 2007 and 2008 being in dispute with the then Government, because I felt they were setting up a banking crisis that we could have avoided, but unfortunately my voice was not listened to; they did not take action on interest rates and money market conditions to prevent the crisis. When it started, I think I was the only MP who said, “Do not give all this money to the banks.” I felt it was wrong to buy shares in the banks and to support the bondholders. I thought we had a duty to the depositors and individuals who were tied up with the banks, but not to those who had financed and run the banks in those conditions. Unfortunately, the decision was made to embark on a massive subsidisation and share-buying programme, which the previous Government did. So we are where we are, and I think that we all agree that what we wish to do now is get the maximum value we can out of the banks that are subsidised or in state ownership, because that would make the public feel better about it. Surely, now is the time when those state-owned and state-subsidised banks should make their fuller contribution to the recovery, after their role in the recent crash.
Chris Bryant
I apologise in advance to the right hon. Gentleman if what I am about to say is an inaccurate representation of what he said in the past, but my memory is that he produced a report in which he argued there should be much less regulation of the financial services industry—in fact almost none—[Interruption.] He is shaking his head. I am sure he will be able to enlighten us by correcting me.
Mr Redwood
How many times will I have to deal with this idiotic canard that Labour dreamt up? The report was very clear: it said the then Government were not regulating cash and capital strongly enough, and it was a cash and capital problem that the banks had that led to the crisis. If the then Government had taken our advice, the banks would have been made to have more cash and capital at a much earlier stage of the cycle, so we would not have gone into the period of banking weakness during the credit crunch.
We also said that the mortgage regulation introduced by the then Labour Government was not fit for purpose, was useless and might as well be scrapped. Our case was proved extremely well, because it was the mortgage banks that crashed—the very banks that were the object of the extra regulation. The extra regulation was clearly regulating the wrong things. We were not against regulation: we said mortgage banks and other banks should be regulated, but it was vital to understand what the problem was. It was very clear in ’06 and ’07 that the problem was an excess of lending of poor quality. It was also very clear that the answer was more cash and capital, and that was what we recommended. It is a great pity that the then Government did not follow our advice.
Graham Stringer
I agree that it is clear that there was something wrong with the previous regulation, although I would not go along with the right hon. Gentleman’s argument entirely, but does he agree that there is a villain in the piece who hardly ever gets mentioned: the credit rating agencies that allowed the banks to sell snake oil to each other? Does he agree that we in this House should do something about that?
Mr Redwood
I hold no brief for the credit rating agencies, but nor have I prepared a case against them. I am sure the hon. Gentleman can make his own case and come up with his own remedies. In my view, there have been many villains in this historic piece, including the regulators, the Bank of England for its misconduct in the money markets, and the commercial banks that took advantage of ridiculously lax conditions and got themselves into a great pickle, which we had to sort out.
Helen Goodman
I am interested in the right hon. Gentleman’s argument, but does he seriously think we could have made significant changes to the way we regulated banks in this country without international agreement on the way banks are regulated?
Mr Redwood
Yes, I think we could, which is why I made that recommendation well before the credit crunch occurred. In ’06 and ’07, it was obvious to me and to some other commentators that things were getting out of control—indeed, it was quite common for Opposition parties in this House to say they thought there was too much credit about. I went a bit further and said that could be remedied by changing the way we regulated the banks. It was quite wrong to allow a bank to extend more credit when it only had a 4% tier 1 capital ratio. I remember that when I was a financial regulator, we lived in an era when banks needed twice or three times that amount of capital to be acceptable to the regulator. There was a clear diminution in standards at a crucial time, which fuelled the credit binge.
Mr Kevan Jones
I know that the right hon. Gentleman sometimes speaks at odds with his party, and he talked earlier about historical references. Was it not his party’s Government under Margaret Thatcher who deregulated the mortgage market, and is it not the case that up until the recent banking crisis hit, his party’s Front Benchers were talking about lighter regulation of the banking sector, not more regulation?
Mr Redwood
The Front-Bench team and I were at one on this issue: we were saying that what was needed were better regulation and less regulation. The Government were regulating too many things badly. As I have just explained, they were regulating mortgage banks in a way that allowed all, or at least several, of them to be crippled and caused a great many problems. The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong about Baroness Thatcher: much stricter controls over cash and capital were imposed throughout her period in office, and, of course, no major bank went down during that period. The same cannot be said of 2007-10, when the requirements were much laxer, as I highlighted in the report, and when we ended up with banks going down.
We are not here to debate past regulation, however; we are here to debate taxation. My purpose in sketching the history of this tragic situation is to express solidarity with all those who agree with the public mood, which is that we want to get a bigger return out of the banks, whatever we may think are the reasons why they are in their present position, but it is also to remind the House of a very important and salient fact, which is that two of the biggest banks are wholly or partially in state ownership or control. We are therefore talking about taxing ourselves in no small measure.
The issue before Ministers is a little more complicated than the Labour spokesman has suggested, because there are two ways in which we can get cash out of the banks: one is to tax them now on their stream of revenue, or their assets and liabilities in the case of the bank levy tax; the other is to move more quickly to sell off those assets back into private sector ownership and, I hope, proper private sector risk taking. If we are to get the maximum receipt, we do not want to be taking too much money out of the banks in the short term by way of taxation, because for every £1 of tax we take out of them, we lose £5, £10 or £15, depending on the multiple we sell them on when we come to sell them.
Barry Gardiner
The right hon. Gentleman is making a very coherent presentation, but does he not agree that if we do not want to be taking money out of the banks by taxing them, equally we do not want to see that money going out of the banks by way of bonuses paid to their high-end staff?
Mr Redwood
I hasten to correct the hon. Gentleman: of course I think we have to tax banks. We have to tax ourselves, and we need to tax the other banks in the system, as well as the state-owned ones, but we must also consider the balance of effects and the impact on shareholder value. I entirely agree with those who say that if a bank is state subsidised or largely state owned and is therefore in receipt of state money, it is surprising that it should be paying very large bonuses. It is even more surprising if the bank is loss-making, because although an individual employee in that bank may be able to say, “I personally made a profit to offset some of the losses,” the senior people in the bank are corporately responsible for the overall results. It is at the very least surprising if a loss-making bank is making rather big pay-outs, because that is taxpayers’ money and taxpayers’ wealth being paid out to those individuals, which, as the hon. Gentleman rightly says, is not then available to sell as a stream of profits when the shares are returned to the private sector.
Hugh Bayley
The right hon. Gentleman seems to be saying that it is important that the taxpayer gets the maximum value when the publicly owned portions of banks are put back on the market and floated, and I agree. Does he agree with me that it is therefore important that the mechanism at that time should not provide incentives for would-be shareholders such as shares being valued below their real market rate in order to encourage popular capitalism, but that the shares should be sold in such a way as to maximise the return to the taxpayer?
Mr Redwood
No, I do not necessarily agree with that, because I think that another way of returning value to the taxpayers who have supported the bank is to make those sorts of offer. However, I will wait to see what Treasury Ministers come up with before judging whether a measure is too generous or not generous enough, and how appropriate it is.
Hugh Bayley
My point is that if we maximise the return to the taxpayer, everybody in the country—rich and poor—gets a share of the benefit. If we put some of the value into creating lower-priced shares to boost popular capitalism, we spend our public money on only a small percentage of the population. Surely that is less fair than maximising the return and spreading the benefits across all taxpayers.
Mr Redwood
The hon. Gentleman is right that there are those two sides to the argument, but this is probably not the time or place to argue that through. We may have an opportunity to argue through how the bank shares are sold and the balance in the sale process when we get nearer to that point. The issue before us now is a taxation one. We are discussing the taxation of bonuses and the bank levy—the subject of the clause—and I agree with those who say that if we take too much out in bonuses in a state-owned bank, that detracts from the value that is available to sell.
Of course, the bank levy is not the means by which we can have any impact on bonuses. Interestingly, it was the previous Government who nationalised or bought shares in banks and signed off on all the original agreements for the top directors and executives. I believe that they included generous bonus terms at the time because, they said, they had to in order to have the talent needed. The criticism being made of the coalition Government now is that they took over those inherited contracts and lived with them, rather than broke them and disrupted the management of the banks, which I regard as a lesser charge than the one against the former Government of setting up all those contracts in the first place.
This should not be a party political issue. I regret some of the contracts that were incorporated at the time of the purchase of shares, but I regretted the whole purchase of shares because I thought it neither a particularly good deal for the taxpayer, nor a necessary deal to sort out the banking problem. I would rather have sorted that out more rapidly at the time, with managed administration or something else, than adopt this expensive way of putting all that money in. We are now trying to maximise the returns because we are where we are.
Lorely Burt
My right hon. Friend has partly answered the point I was going to make, but I wonder whether he could help me. What did the Labour party do to control the bonuses paid to loss-making banks when it was in government?
Mr Redwood
Labour Members would say that they could speak for themselves and that they imposed a bonus tax. However, as the hon. Lady is suggesting, they did allow very generous bonus conditions into the contracts for their state-owned or partly state-owned banks. Perhaps some would have come to a tougher judgment at that time, had they been in a position of power to do so.
The point I wish to make in this debate is simple. I hope that when Ministers are deciding the right level of the levy, they will weigh very carefully the important fact that we are, in part, taxing ourselves. I hope that within a few years, if not within a matter of months, as I would prefer, we will return those assets and get the money back that the taxpayers deserve.
Helen Goodman
The right hon. Gentleman is making a coherent case, but is he not worried that Government’s strategy is not as coherent as his argument? If we look at table C.3 in the Red Book, we see that no forecast is made of the value of the asset sales. Do we not need to see a forecast if we are to make precisely the judgment that he is asking us to make?
Mr Redwood
I, too, would find forecasts helpful, but I understand the uncertainties surrounding what bank shares might be worth in one or two years’ time. There may even still be considerable uncertainties about how much profit the banks will deliver. It would be much easier to get value for taxpayers if these banks deliver reasonable profits.
The second point I wish to make is that the other disadvantage of a bank levy tax is that it is a tax on exactly the kind of activities that we really want banks to perform at the moment to fuel the recovery: it is a tax on lending money to businesses and individuals. The loans that we probably most want, if we are to get the recovery going more quickly, will be the riskier ones, yet they are exactly the kind of assets that the banks will own that will score more heavily for the levy.
Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that we might want to deal with the banks’ behaviour in a more general sense and their impact on the economy? Might it not be worth considering a third way of dealing with the banks, particularly re-mutualisation of some of them? Might that be a way of getting banks that are more focused on their stakeholders, particularly the people to whom we might want them to lend, than on paying bonuses to people all the time?
Mr Redwood
I am always very happy to see ownership extended in ways that include that type of mutual, although the history of the mutual banking movement in the past 20 years provides no evidence that such banks were particularly good at reading the cycle or dealing with the capital problems—indeed, many of those institutions went to the markets and decided to exploit market opportunities because they had a capital problem that they thought they could solve by that route. It may be that we could go back to more traditional mutually owned banks with much more constrained balance sheets and activities, and that might be part of getting back to a more healthy banking sector. That is something that the market should decide.
I am firmly of the view that we need more competition and choice in the marketplace. One of the big errors was allowing banks that were too big. As a competition hawk, I was publicly very strongly against the takeover of HBOS by Lloyds; it was a great tragedy for Lloyds and for the country that that merger went through. We should have dealt with HBOS in other ways, which would have been less expensive. I was also a critic of the Royal Bank of Scotland takeover of ABN AMRO. Although the competition issues that raised were not as clear as the competition issues raised in the case of the Lloyds takeover of HBOS, I would have liked to have seen a tougher line taken. I hope that this period of change and reflection on banking, including how we tax it, can lead to a much more competitive structure. One of the ways of doing that would be to sell off some of the assets currently owned through Lloyds and through RBS in ways that created more banking challenge in the market.
Mr Robinson
The right hon. Gentleman wants to ensure that we get the maximum return possible when we bring the banks back into the market, and the whole House would agree with that. He referred to the need not to reduce by too much our prospects for doing that by reducing through an excessive tax charge the multiple applied to earnings in realising the sale value, but his point about therefore moderating any tax that might be imposed is specious and certainly does not allow him to invest the seriousness that he wants, given that the multiple used is nearly always a profit-before-tax multiple—certainly, it will always be adjusted for that if exceptional items are involved. For that reason, some people, with whom I would not agree, even opt for an earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortisation—EBITDA—calculation for these purposes. The fact is that the quality of the earnings is more important here than any considerations about tax levels at any one point in time.
Mr Redwood
I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman about that. It is true that in the venture capital world EBITDA multiples are more common, although people would not give the same value or the same multiple to a highly taxed business as they would to a more lowly taxed business; but in the open share market in the major stock exchanges, it is more normal to look at price earnings multiples based on earnings net of taxation. There is no doubt that if more tax is taken out of a business, it is less valuable to its private owners—of course that must be true. The private owners are trying to buy a stream of profit or revenue and if some of that is taken in tax, the business will be less valuable.
I had just moved on to my final point, which is about the impact everything we are discussing has on economic recovery. I urge the Minister to bear in mind that the kind of tax proposed, if carried too far, can be damaging. It impedes banks making the sorts of loan and building up the sort of asset base that we want them to at a time of recovery. In addition, any given jurisdiction going too far could become a trigger for the bank’s moving some or more of its activities offshore or changing its arrangements in a way that it thinks would allow it to get around some or all of the tax impost. I would prefer that this tax had not been invented—there are better ways of taxing banks—but if we are to have such a tax, let us ensure that we have thought about two very important consequences of setting it too high: it might damage our own share values and it might damage lending for the recovery.
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
The general public are outraged at the levels of bankers’ bonuses, which remain very high indeed. The Government were forced, as we are all aware, into multi-billion pound bank bail-outs during the financial crisis. Quite simply, people cannot understand why bankers and people employed in the financial institutions have been given billions and billions of pounds of taxpayers’ money at a time of great austerity.
To pay massive bonuses in the midst of a financial crisis is a national disgrace, as it is to pay massive bonuses at a time when public sector services are being destroyed and young people face an unprecedented attack via tuition fees, the abolition of the education maintenance allowance and changes in Sure Start. Last year, Barclays boss Bob Diamond and his two replacements at the head of the investment bank were paid an obscene amount of money: £28 million. The trio also received shares worth £40 million for past performance. That must have been some performance!
I have just done some calculations. The people who are now receiving redundancy notices in the public services—many council workers, nurses, doctors, police officers and the rest—would be lucky to have a bonus of £50 a week. That is £2,500 a year, £25,000 over 10 years and £125,000 over 100 years. So to make £1 million, they would have to live until they were 400. To make the £28 million that the Barclays heads were given, they would have to live to 11,200. That is highly unlikely—I am merely accentuating the point—but those figures are an absolute disgrace.
Barry Gardiner
I do not wish to disturb my hon. Friend’s flow, but is he aware that I was informed by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority the other day that I could not raise any of my staff’s salaries, even though they have been the same for a year, because they are public servants? If I wanted to give them any reward for exceptional service, the maximum I was allowed to give was a £15 token each year for a meal. Where can anyone get a meal for £15 around here? It is absolutely disgraceful, when such sums are being given out to the bankers.
Ian Lavery
I thank my hon. Friend for that question, which is a great way of introducing IPSA into the debate on the Finance Bill. I think we would have agreement on that point across the House.
Let me get back to the discussion. Barclays bosses were compared to Somali pirates by one of their own shareholders, amid anger over their obscene bonuses. Shareholders lined up to vent their fury at the annual meeting, complaining that their dividends had plummeted while senior executives continued to enjoy huge pay packets. Another shareholder accused the executives of rank historical folly, saying:
“In these times of austerity the seemingly excessive payments to senior bank staff seems to show the lack of wisdom reminiscent of Marie Antoinette saying let them eat cake.”
HSBC has tried to seize the high ground by announcing a reduction in maximum bonuses for top bosses, but chief executives could still receive a package of more than £12.5 million this year. This mammoth pay deal comprises a salary of £1.25 million plus up to £7.5 million in long-term bonus shares and a possible £3.75 million annual bonus. Some reduction. That is why the bankers must pay their share, and why the Labour party are seeking this amendment to ensure that that happens.
This recession was not made in Britain; it is a global recession. Let me set the scene for a minute or so. In the decade before the financial crisis, Labour cut Britain’s national debt and Britain’s deficit. Both were lower than the amounts we inherited from the Tories. Before the financial crash we had a lower national debt than America, France, Germany or Japan. The crisis was caused by the financial institutions—by these banks. Governments and central banks were also, of course, at fault, including in Britain, where we did not see it coming and should have been tougher in regulating the banks.
The cry from those on the Conservative Benches, and from the City, for lighter regulation of the banks should have been totally ignored—and, yes, Labour should have been tougher on the banks. When the City and the Tories called for lighter regulation, we should have ignored them and been tougher still. Our priority, however, was to prevent recession turning into depression and to keep people in jobs. We always said that once the economy was growing strongly, tough decisions would be needed to get the deficit down again. The plan, as we all know, was to halve the deficit in four years, including through a continuation of Labour’s bank bonus tax.
The crisis was not the result of our spending on essential front-line services such as the NHS, schools, police, local authorities or any other public service.
Mr Kevan Jones
Does my hon. Friend share my disappointment at the sparse attendance on the Liberal Democrat Benches? Before the election, the Liberal Democrats lectured us on bank bonuses and what we were doing about the banks—and now, in places such as Northumberland, they are devastating public services through the cuts that they say are needed because of the financial mess that the banks got us in to.
Ian Lavery
That is a very good point about Northumberland. In my constituency in particular, 60% of women and more than 40%—nearly 50%— of men are employed in the public services. Many are being subjected to enforced redundancies by the Liberal Democrat-led Northumberland county council. We hope that will change in 2013, but let us wait and see what happens on Thursday, as that will give us a good idea of what will happen in the coming months and years.
We must realise that the recession was caused by the financial institutions and, yes, by the banks. We are certainly not alone in Britain as a nation in deficit. The financial crisis affected every major economy, resulting in national deficits worldwide. It is the different way in which those nations agreed to tackle their deficits that is the issue. We are saying that we need financing from the banks and the continuation of Labour’s bank tax to ensure that we have the money to allow the programmes we had planned to go forward.
The Government are cutting too far and too fast and they are hitting the most vulnerable, as well as jobs and families. It is necessary to prioritise an economic plan that focuses on increased growth and increased employment opportunities, which would place Britain in a better position to emerge much more rapidly from the current economic situation, which has been flatlining, at best. Part of such a plan would involve repeating Labour’s bank bonus and investing in growth and jobs.
The economy remains extremely fragile. The Office for Budget Responsibility has revised down its growth forecast for the UK economy in 2011 from 2.6% a year ago to just 1.7%. Last week’s growth figures were hardly a triumph for the economy. Growth flatlined over the last quarter of 2010 and the first quarter of 2011—it was down 0.5% in the former before going back up 0.5% in the latter—an effect that the Office for National Statistics has largely attributed to poor weather in December.
Helen Goodman
I agree with my hon. Friend. Does he agree that it is very odd that the rate of the bank levy is being cut in the second year and that the revenues from the levy, which start at £630 million, will fall to only £100 million by the end of the Parliament?
Ian Lavery
That is strange, but it is probably what we should expect. It does not surprise me one jot that the tax on banks will reduce in the years to come rather than increasing in line with profit or productivity.
Most Members will be lucky enough to have a credit card, and many of them will have maxed it out and might still have a maxed-out card. That is a new term I have learned since coming to Parliament—“maxed-out credit card”. Incidentally, returning to IPSA, my IPSA card has definitely been maxed out: it has been stopped, as there is only £1 left on it, but that is another issue. On a serious note, many hon. Members will have maxed out their credit card and will not be looking to pay it off in the next year or so. Instead, they will be planning how and when it best suits their pockets to pay it off, when they are able to do so. Paying it off immediately would mean having to go without even the most basic of necessities. That is life: it is about having effective financial means.
The world economy revolves around borrowing and debt. People the length and breadth of the nation live off debt, and the issue is how that debt is managed and repaid. That kind of debt is like a mortgage: people have to pay it off, but it becomes like a family deficit that is paid off over 25 years. If people were told they had to pay their mortgage off in two years they could not do it, because they could not survive. That is exactly the approach that the Government are taking with the deficit. This is about having a fair process; it is about financial management. We are definitely not all in this together, but the Labour party’s bonus tax would have helped to implement a number of social programmes that would have benefited many of those who feel they are being disproportionately affected by the cuts.
Mr Kevan Jones
I do not know whether my hon. Friend saw the Newcastle Journal on Saturday, but he knows that the housing market is struggling in my area. The Journal has reported that only 13 houses in the north-east were bought for more than £1 million last year. Is it not ironic that one of the bank bonuses that has been paid could have bought all of those houses?
Ian Lavery
I think that is ironic, and I assure my hon. Friend that not many houses in my constituency are valued in the region of £1 million. That is not only ironic; it is pretty sad and desperate when I think of the number of people in my constituency and elsewhere in the north-east who are looking for social housing and who cannot even get on to the housing ladder as a result of the austerity measures that are being put in place. That is why Labour says that although it is hurting, the signs are that it is not working.
The amendment calls on the Government to review the overall taxation burden on the banks. They have declined to renew Labour’s bank bonus tax, which raised £3.5 billion last year, and have instead proceeded with a bank levy that will raise about £2.5 billion. Labour is calling on the Government not to give a tax cut to the banks, but to use the money that would be raised from repeating the levy to invest in jobs and growth. The Bill’s provisions for the bank levy equate simply to a tax cut for the banks, because it is estimated that it will bring in £2.5 billion a year, which is less than the £3.5 billion that Labour’s bonus tax brought in last year according to the OBR.
Furthermore, the Government are giving banks a corporation tax cut of more than £100 million in 2011-12 and the value of that tax cut will rise considerably by the end of the Parliament. It is essential to repeat the bank bonus tax, to increase the bank levy and to invest in jobs, growth and housing. Labour believes that in addition to continuing with the bank levy the Government should repeat the bank bonus tax and raise at least £2 billion more, so that the banks do not get a tax cut this year. Frankly, I am opposed to the banks getting a tax cut in any year.
Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con)
The former Chancellor of the Exchequer thought that it would be unsustainable to impose the bank bonus tax for more than one year. Does the hon. Gentleman disagree with his colleague?
Ian Lavery
The simple answer is yes. Things have changed dramatically since my right hon. Friend left office; even the hon. Gentleman would agree with that.
Ian Lavery
“Only for the better.” Of course.
In future years, the Government should increase the bank levy to ensure that the banks continue to pay their fair share of tax, so that taxpayers are not left picking up the bill for a crisis caused by the irresponsible actions of those institutions. The OBR’s November 2010 forecast showed that the bonus tax brought in revenues of £3.5 billion in 2010-11.
Stephen Pound
My hon. Friend might be surprised to hear that he is engendering in me some sympathy for bankers. The sheer, overpowering, pressing agony of having to spend £28 million would put so much pressure and pain on a person; one has only to look at Wayne Rooney to see the consequences of that. Does my hon. Friend agree that if bank bonuses are not about money, they are actually about mutual approval and standards? We could simply give bankers a golden tick on a badge, or a sticker, to show that we love them, and get the £28 million back to refresh the economy and get jobs into his constituency and mine.
Ian Lavery
That is the first time I have been accused of being sympathetic to the bankers, but I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. I would much rather give the bankers a nice little tick or an A* for the way in which they perform—or perhaps in this particular case a C, D, E, F or a fail. At the moment, an F would still equate to many tens of thousands of pounds for most bankers.
Mr Kevan Jones
Does my hon. Friend think that his constituents or mine believe that most of the bankers who got us into the mess we are in deserve a bonus at all, or even an F?
Ian Lavery
The reality is that people in my constituency cannot even get a loan from the banks. In the past they could get loans for all sorts of things, and that was a run-of-the-mill thing to do in my community and many others. If someone wanted a holiday, a carpet or a car and they could not afford it outright, they would have gone to the bank or building society and got a loan.
Now they not only cannot get loans, they cannot even get credit cards. The bankers are making billions, but the people at the sharp end, who are suffering the most as a result of the Government’s cuts, cannot even get a loan from the banks or building societies.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is right, but it is not just his constituents who cannot get a loan—many of his local businesses face the same problem. He spoke earlier about the need for growth in our economy. Is it not a scandal that many banks will not, as the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) said, take a risk on small and medium-sized businesses? They will not even take a punt on a good business proposition.
Ian Lavery
That is exactly right. I was merely highlighting the plight of ordinary families. Small and medium-sized enterprises in every region of the country are suffering greatly as a result of the austerity measures and of the negative attitude of bankers, who think only about how much they will make at the top of the ladder, not about how anybody else—business people or ordinary people—will manage.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend realise the perverse effect of the difficulty in getting loans from banks is that many people are forced to turn to very expensive money lenders, corner shops and so on, where they pay ludicrous rates of interest, with no security whatever for what they are trying to achieve? That is simply wrong.
Ian Lavery
I thank my hon. Friend. That is a serious matter. Many people who were once able to get bona fide loans from building societies or banks are now forced to seek finance from loan sharks—
The Temporary Chair (Mr James Gray)
Order. We are ranging rather wide of the amendment under discussion. The Chair would be grateful for a little more focus on the amendment.
Ian Lavery
Thank you for your guidance, Mr Gray. I thought it was my duty as a parliamentarian to try to answer Members who were asking questions. Thank you for telling me that I may not.
Stella Creasy
Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the things that we could do is to consider whether the amendment on the adequacy of the bank levy could be used to deal with some of those practices and with illegal loan sharks who are preying on people to whom our mainstream banks will not lend?
Ian Lavery
I agree 100% with my hon. Friend’s suggestion, but as I have just suffered the wrath of the Chair, I shall not try to respond.
The OBR’s November 2010 forecast showed that the bonus tax brought in revenues of £3.5 billion in 2010-11. We cannot know how much a repeat of the tax would yield in 2011-12, but a cautious assumption by any measure would be about £2 billion. The Labour party’s view is that that estimated sum would go a long way to supporting many projects, such as, first, establishing a youth jobs fund and creating up to 100,000 new youth jobs at a time when youth unemployment is almost 1 million, its highest since records began in 1992-93. That is one thing we could do with the bank tax.
Secondly, we could build 25,000 new homes for low cost home ownership and affordable social rent. This could create tens of thousands of jobs and help create 1,500 construction apprenticeships. It is important to ensure that young people can get on to the property ladder. Thirdly, an additional £200 million could be provided as funding for the regional growth fund bids. Getting more people in work and paying taxes is the best way to bring the deficit down. The Tory-led Government are cutting too deep and too fast, and now the economy has stalled and unemployment is higher.
There is a better way. Instead of giving the banks a tax cut this year, next year or the year after, the Government should repeat Labour’s bank bonus tax and use the money raised to invest in creating more than 100,000 jobs for young people and in construction, and to build 25,000 affordable homes.
The cuts are going too deep and too fast. There is an alternative. If we were still in government we would be halving the deficit steadily over four years, in line with the pledges made by major economies at the G20 last year, not trying to cut it further and faster than any other major economy in the world. Yes, tough choices are required. The deficit cannot be brought down if the economy is not growing strongly and hundreds of thousands of people are being thrown out of work. That is a simple, basic message.
In conclusion, I repeat that the most important factor in getting the deficit down is what happens to jobs and growth in the economy. That is why last year, as the economy started growing again and unemployment was falling, the deficit came in more than £20 billion lower than expected. That changed as the economy stopped growing at the end of last year and unemployment is higher. Stop the tax cuts to the banks, invest in the future of our young people, invest in this nation, invest in jobs and growth and adopt the Labour example of the bonus tax on banks.
Nic Dakin
It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery), who gave a comprehensive account of why we should support the very precise amendment on the bank levy.
A banker writing in the 1920s wrote:
“April is the cruellest month, breeding
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Memory and desire”,
and went on to talk about the present month as “depraved May”. I quote T. S. Eliot—
Nic Dakin
I quote T. S. Eliot to remind us that bankers have played good parts in the world of culture, finance and many other things, and to remind us through his words of the pain of growth and rebirth. Economic growth is a difficult business. That is the business that we should be in, and we should make sure that bankers play their part in that.
Bankers were not always about bonuses, and conversations about banks were not always about bonuses. Sadly, since the credit crunch and the global financial crisis, more attention has been focused on how great the anomaly is. We have heard the telephone-number salaries quoted and compared with the situation of people in our constituencies who are doing their best to bring their families up to be aspirational and to move forward in their lives.
Helen Goodman
Does my hon. Friend agree that the criteria for awarding bonuses are strange? Is it not ironic that at a time when the clearing banks are closing branches in our constituencies, bankers are taking huge bonuses?
Nic Dakin
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. She draws attention to the fact that people see banks closing and services becoming less available and more remote at the same time as large bonuses are being given out, with no apparent transparency and no clear criteria.
The Bill delivers a tax benefit for banks—a bonus for banks, rather than for UK plc—in the form of the £2.5 billion bank levy, which should be compared with the £3.5 billion bank bonus last year, and with £100 million being given back through cuts in corporation tax. At a time when the banks should be putting more in to atone for the situation we are in and to help the engine of the economy, the Government are allowing them to take more out. That does not seem fair to me, and it does not seem fair to the people I represent.
Mr Kevan Jones
Does my hon. Friend agree that it is an absolute disgrace not only that those involved directly in the big five banks are earning such bonuses, but that those who have earned a lot of money from the misery that has been caused over the past few years are also doing so, including those companies that offer advice, such as Goldman Sachs, whose average bonus is about £270,000 per individual?
Nic Dakin
My hon. Friend draws attention to another interesting area where we would wish the Government to apply their imagination and attention to try to get more money back for the taxpayer so that it can be invested in the economy, in public services and in growth, the engines that would drive us forward. This is a no-mandate Government. A year ago there was clearly no mandate for what they are doing. They are taking their approach to bankers’ bonuses even though there is a clear mandate from the population—one of the few that exists—for cracking on, getting on top of bankers’ bonuses and ensuring that they play their part in reinvigorating the British economy. Where there is a mandate, the Government fail to act and give a dividend to bankers instead of a tax. There is no mandate for the things the Government are doing, such as the NHS reorganisation.
Jeremy Corbyn
My hon. Friend seems to have skated over the point that the majority of the banks are actually state owned, or have a majority state shareholding. Surely it is incumbent on the Government to intervene, either by appointing their own directors or sending directives to the banks on how they should behave, rather than pretending that it is nothing to do with them even though the banks are already publicly owned.
Nic Dakin
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention about intervention. More intervention is needed from the Government, who have a stake in the banks. In fact, it is taxpayers and the public we serve who have that stake in the banks. He is quite right that the Government should be exercised about how they get the benefit back to the British people.
Mr Love
Have the Government not failed lamentably? If we look at Project Merlin, where they intervened with the banks on bonuses and on lending to small businesses, we can see the bonuses that are likely to be given this year and the fact that the Government have failed lamentably to deliver finance for small businesses in this country. They simply are not working.
Nic Dakin
I thank my hon. Friend for that observation. Project Merlin’s record is a sorry tale so far. We see a failure to deliver on bankers’ bonuses and a failure to reinvest the taxation from them in the economy. He is right that the record on lending to small and medium-sized enterprises is woeful. Small and medium-sized enterprises, as I think all Members recognise, are the lifeblood and the engine of our economy, and he is completely right to underline that point.
Stephen Pound
My hon. Friend refers to taxation arising from bankers’ bonuses flowing back into the economy. Would that that were so. Does he not agree that the ingenuity, skill and—I dare say—avarice of the average banker is best demonstrated by their ability to defer tax liability, so that the money, rather than coming back, tends to fructify in their pockets?
Nic Dakin
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. Clearly, the amendment aims to provoke a review of how we best ensure that bankers’ bonuses are taxed efficiently and effectively, rather than ineffectively, as the Government are currently, which is always a danger unless we are vigilant, as my hon. Friend suggests.
Helen Goodman
I shall of course vote for the amendment this evening, but it does raise the question of whether it ought to be the Chancellor who reviews the bank levy or, because of the serious problems in the way in which the Government have handled it, the Public Accounts Committee.
Nic Dakin
My hon. Friend makes an interesting and valid point, but amendment 9 proposes specifically that:
“The Chancellor shall review the bank levy and publish a report, before 31 December 2011, on—
(a) the Government’s analysis behind the rate and threshold chosen for the bank levy;
(b) the adequacy of the bank levy in the context of other reforms to the wider banking system; and
(c) the total tax revenues expected from banks across all categories of taxation in each year from 2011-12 to 2016-17.’.”
That is what we are debating today, although my hon. Friend makes a good point.
Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)
On the hon. Gentleman’s point about the mandate, presumably if Labour had got 3% or 4% more in the vote and a majority of 60 or 70 seats on 35%, he would have considered that to be a mandate to do whatever Labour wanted to do?
The Temporary Chair (Mr James Gray)
Order. That has absolutely nothing to do with the amendment we are discussing.
Nic Dakin
Thank you, Mr Gray, although I think that the hon. Gentleman was reminding me of the part in my speech in which I referred to mandates, as it was important to reiterate that the Government have no mandate for the NHS reorganisation, for police cuts, for the VAT rise, for abolishing the future jobs fund or for trebling tuition fees, and they certainly have no mandate for cutting too fast and too deep. However, they do have a mandate for listening to the amendment we are considering today on the bank levy. There absolutely is a mandate for the bank levy.
Mr Ward
This point has occurred so many times, so can we pick this one off? The figure of £3.9 million is certainly bigger than £2.5 million, but £3.9 million for one year is surely smaller than £2.5 billion for four years. How on earth can this be a cut in the banking levy?
Nic Dakin
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. We are arguing that because of the fragility of the recovery, it is time to repeat the bank bonus tax. The Government should make their decisions now when they are not constrained. The decision now should be to repeat the bank bonus tax and increase the bank levy year on year, rather than leaving it static. That is what this review of the bank levy would allow us to establish, and that would produce an additional income, he will be pleased to hear, of at least £2 billion in each year of this Administration. That additional £2 billion could be used by the Government on behalf of the British people, the taxpayers and, indeed, the shareholders of these companies.
Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)
Would my hon. Friend be surprised to hear that the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) was in Westminster Hall this morning, alongside many other Members, seeking additional funding for ESOL—English for speakers of other languages—training? My hon. Friend is giving a solution that would allow the Government to provide that additional funding, which would produce growth in the economy, rather than the shrinkage we are seeing promoted by the coalition Government.
Nic Dakin
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. The review of the bank levy, which is at the heart of the amendment, would allow the Government to look at the sorts of things that that money could be spent on. It could be used for a youth jobs fund, for putting £25 million into new homes or for providing the regional growth fund with an additional £200 million. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) has already explored those issues in some detail.
Stella Creasy
It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) and his eloquent description of the problems facing us as a country. I rise to speak to clause 72 and amendment 9 because this debate is about the bank levy and whether it is being applied in the right way and to the correct extent.
I support the amendment, because it seeks to address the challenges of any new legislation and answer the question of how we as a Parliament ensure that the legislation that we pass is effective at doing what we want it to do. The amendment would meet the challenge of asking whether bankers pay their fair share of the cost of dealing with the global financial crisis, just as we as taxpayers have paid more than our fair share, some might say, in trying to support them. That goes to the heart of today’s debate about clause 72 and what the Bill will do for the financial future of this country, so I support the amendment because it highlights the need to address the adequacy of the bank levy.
I also pose a wider question about how the clause will work to ensure that all those who have benefited and, indeed, continue to benefit from the financial crisis that this country has endured pay their fair share in helping the economy out of recession and back into growth, not least because I am deeply concerned, as many Members know, about this Government’s policy of reducing the national debt by increasing private household debt, and about what that might mean for many of our constituents.
I spoke at length on Second Reading last week about the impact of that policy on families throughout the country, and I do not propose to repeat the measures that I put forward, but, on the adequacy of the bank levy, the clause makes an omission that I hope the amendment will address. High-cost lenders are benefiting disproportionately from the impact of the Budget on our people, and from the fact that mainstream lenders are not lending because of banks paying out more in bonuses than they do to the people of this country, who need that money. Indeed, perhaps the omission calls for a new clause to deal with that issue and, therefore, to make sure that that money benefits our economy.
The industry has certainly benefited greatly from this Government and from the events of the last year alone. Of the £216 billion of unsecured lending in this country, £8.5 billion comes from that market, which has increased by £1 billion in the past year, and £8.5 billion is the same amount of money that it would cost to repair all the schools in England—a cause dear to many Opposition Members. It is also the entire budget of the Department for International Development; we are talking about a substantial amount. The market is growing not least because of the lack of regulation—the lack of Government action to deal with the high-cost credit industry—and the amendment could deal with that omission.
Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)
My hon. Friend refers to schools, and she knows from her constituency and borough how the coalition parties’ drastic, ruthless and unplanned cuts to Building Schools for the Future have caused great grief to her constituents, yet she says that they could have been compensated for by the measures to which she has just referred—
The Temporary Chair (Mr James Gray)
Order. I have been quite generous so far in not picking up hon. Members on what they have said, but we have to focus on the bank levy, how much it should be and whether it should be reviewed annually. Debating the way in which the Government might spend the proceeds from any such levy is not in order during discussion of this amendment.
Stella Creasy
Thank you, Mr Gray. I appreciate very much the passion with which my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) expresses his concern about BSF, which is a sentiment that I share, but I take the Chair’s point, and the bank levy is exactly what I want to speak to. I am concerned, because it offers an opportunity to deal with the challenges to our economy, and therefore the Bill should be amended by amendment 9.
I return to the case that I am trying to make about the high-cost credit market in the UK and its impact. It is precisely because the market has not been subject to any regulation, which could be introduced under the amendment, that we have seen a massive explosion in payday lending—a quadrupling of the industry in the past 18 months alone.
Dollar Financial, which Members may know better as The Money Shop, has already stated that the lack of regulation here brought it to the UK. The company had one store in the country in 1992, 273 by 2009, and it has announced plans for a further 800 this year alone as a result of that lack of regulation.
The question of adequacy, which the amendment raises, includes how those companies act—certainly, that is how I interpret it—and the opportunity that the levy and its review could provide for dealing with the impact of their actions on consumers in the UK. By using the review, we could ask whether the levy might be applied in such a way as to deter consumer detriment.
Jeremy Corbyn
I pay great tribute to my hon. Friend for her work on those scoundrels who lend money at huge rates of interest. What she has done is very welcome. Does she also consider it important that the bank levy be used beneficially to promote and to develop credit unions, which provide a decent system, help people when they are desperate, do not charge them excessive interest and are democratically run? They seem to me to be a beneficial service all round which should be encouraged.
Stella Creasy
My hon. Friend hits the nail on the head, because proposed paragraph (b) of amendment 9 talks about wider reform of our banking system. Many Opposition Members have called for action on access to affordable credit, but this is not just about credit unions; it is about the schemes that housing associations have put forward. In that context, I register my disgust at the fact that a housing association was recently taken to the Advertising Standards Authority by The Money Shop for daring to point out to their tenants the cost of borrowing from such companies—and was, indeed, censured.
The question of how we deal with banking reform, so that everybody can access affordable credit and there is not a new dividing line in our communities between those who can get on in life and families who are scarred with debt for generations, is a key concern for me, and many Opposition Members are concerned about what the Bill and the amendments can do to promote such measures.
Barry Gardiner
I welcome all the energy and work that my hon. Friend has put into that subject. Does she share my disgust at the fact that, here we are, debating an issue that affects literally hundreds of thousands of our constituents and, in terms of bankers' bonuses, dealing with one of the biggest issues before the public, yet there are precisely two people sitting on the Conservative Benches?
Stella Creasy
My hon. Friend makes a good point about the importance of this Bill putting first the needs of this country and, therefore, about the importance that others attach to it. I hope that we have support from members in all parts of the House for the need to act on the high-cost credit market. There has certainly been support among Government Back Benchers; noticeably, however, Government Front Benchers have so far reacted with negativity to that support. I hope that they will change their minds, given the possibilities that we have through the Bill, the amendment and, indeed, the regulatory measures being considered to make progress on an issue that concerns many Members. Our concerns are about a number of products—I want to put on record what we are talking about—and the lack of action on such products in contrast to dealing with the bank levy and whether it is applied appropriately.
First, there are payday loans. Many people will be familiar with the concept of a short-term loan, and given that almost half of households cannot make their pay cheques last to the end of the month, it is no surprise that almost one third of households are now considering such products. Interest rates on such loans include one from a company called Oakam, of about 443%; and many people will be familiar with Wonga, whose rates are more at the 4,000% level. We are also talking about the home credit industry and companies such as Provident. Many people will be familiar with Provident going from door to door in their communities lending money to people at interest rates of, say, 272%. That means that if someone borrows just £300 from the company—perhaps to buy a new sofa or TV, or to fix a washing machine or a boiler that has gone wrong over the winter—that will cost them £546.
Were we to use this amendment and the opportunity of the bank levy to deal with some of these problems and with the actions of some of these companies, we would be encouraging the Government to look at the concept of adequacy and consider some of the issues in that market. First, there is the lack of competition in providing credit to those who are denied mainstream credit. That is embodied in the fact that there is no innovation in these products; they are very similar. There is therefore a great contrast with people who are able to borrow from mainstream creditors. Many people will be familiar with mainstream banks offering preferential rates and loyalty schemes to customers who they want to hold on to because they know that they have alternative sources of credit. We could apply the bank levy to the question of adequacy and ask whether these companies are acting in a way that is detrimental to consumers and whether the lack of competition is detrimental to consumers and to our economy. Many people have expressed concern that our banking industry is already overloaded, which requires more competition. I would argue that there needs to be more competition in lending to people who cannot access mainstream credit, and this is one way in which we could achieve that.
A quarter of the customers who use high-cost-credit companies cannot borrow from other lenders. As a consequence, they do not build up the evidence of being good borrowers that would allow them to use mainstream sources of credit. These companies do not share information on their customers, making it incredibly difficult for customers to prove that they could use more mainstream sources of credit. The question of adequacy could also be applied to companies’ use of rollovers and stepping up of loans, which means that borrowers are stuck with using them. In particular, because they often lend only small amounts of money to begin with—
The Temporary Chair (Mr James Gray)
Order. The hon. Lady is making a passionate point, but it is associated only very loosely with amendment 9 to clause 72, so I wonder whether she could bring herself back to the matter that we are discussing.
Stella Creasy
I apologise to the Chair if I am not being clear, but I see this in the context of paragraph (b) of the amendment on the wider regulation of the banking system, and the importance of trying to use the opportunity that the bank levy presents to effect a positive impact on the way in which money is lent to those on low incomes.
John McDonnell
My hon. Friend has campaigned on this issue for a considerable period. Is it not true that the bank levy could be used as a lever to prise these other reforms out of the overall system?
Stella Creasy
My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. This is born out of my frustration at the fact that the Government have so far refused even to contemplate taking action. I hope that this time round the Treasury team will seriously consider how the bank levy could be used to effect such action. The concept of adequacy in the amendment offers us an opportunity to ask whether the bank levy is being levied in a way that deals with high-cost credit and its impact. This debate has been about the appropriate level of the levy and its impact on banks, and I would argue that it could be extended to an appropriate levy on high-cost credit industries. We could then look at the way in which such companies pass on their costs to consumers who are particularly struggling in the economic conditions that we face. As Debt on our Doorstep points out, the fixed costs of lending in the home credit industry represent about 15% of revenues, yet the cost of borrowing from such companies is £82 in collection charges for every £100 lent. It is therefore no surprise that their profits have gone up by 40% in the past year as the lack of regulation in the industry allows them to run riot in our local communities.
There is broad agreement on the need to act on the impact of these companies, and the clause could be amended and applied in such a way as to enable that to happen. Citizens Advice has argued that the Government should not use the need for regulation of the financial sector as a cover for failing to act in these markets, as has the Centre for Responsible Credit—and as have many Ministers. I urge Ministers to talk to colleagues who, prior to 2010, advocated caps on the cost of interest rates. The Minister with responsibility for consumer affairs was very supportive at that time, but he seems to have changed his mind. [Interruption.] I agree entirely with the suggestion that perhaps that is yet another broken promise. We are talking about the 5 million to 7 million people in our communities who are affected by not being able to access mainstream credit and who are forced to use such companies. The bank levy gives us the opportunity to send a strong message to those companies that the way in which they act is deleterious to our communities and to our economy as more people are stuck in debt.
Mr Ward
We have heard numerous calls for the additional bank levy that the hon. Lady supports, involving a couple of million pounds, I understand. The hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) wanted it spent on the Building Schools for the Future programme, which would have blown the full amount. Does she support its use for BSF or would she like it all to be allocated to the very important cause that she is propounding?
Stella Creasy
The hon. Gentleman appears to be arguing that the money that would be raised by the bank levy should be given to the high-cost credit industry. Far be it from me to suggest that he wants to support those kinds of businesses. I know that some Liberal Democrat Members have been very supportive of these companies—mistakenly, because if they were to talk to the local communities affected by them, they would realise how damaging they are.
Let me be very clear: I am arguing for the ability of the Government to review the bank levy and for a review to consider whether it could be applied in such a way as to discourage lending that is detrimental to consumers. I have firmly in my sights the high-cost credit industry and the detriment that it causes to our local communities. I hope that Ministers will accept the amendment and explore whether the bank levy could be used to act as a positive behavioural challenge on these companies, because that would benefit many people in our country. I do not want to see investment in the high-cost credit industry, and I am sure that the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) did not mean to suggest that, but I do want to see action on it, and I know that I am not alone in this House in hoping for that.
If the Government will not accept the amendment, I will table more amendments and keep pressing this issue, and I hope that other Members will join me in support. The Minister is shaking his head. I hope that he has spoken to the many Members on his own Benches who do not shake their heads and walk on by as people are preyed on by these companies. I spent yesterday with 900 members of London Citizens Black Clergy Caucus, who will be seeking urgent meetings with the Ministers responsible. Ministers may think they can ignore me or ignore Labour Members, but I hope that they will not ignore the millions of people who are struggling to pay their bills and make ends meet, and for whom these companies are increasingly the only option. Regulation has worked effectively in other countries, and it could be achieved through this Bill. I hope that the Minister will look at the case seriously and not dismiss it out of hand as he appears to be doing.
Barry Gardiner
It seems to me that when it comes to bonuses, the clue is in the word. If one looks at the etymology, the word “bonus” comes from the Latin: it means “good”. In fact, it should be “bonum”, as with “maximum”, “minimum” and “premium”, so that we had “bonum” and “bona”, but let us leave that aside. The bonus culture in the banks is supposed to be for something good—for good performance—and yet, certainly within the banks that are largely owned by the public, these bonuses are being given almost uniformly for bad performances: they are “malum”, not “bonum”. It is really quite ridiculous that these bonuses should be paid and that the Government should be proposing to levy such a low rate against them.
The right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) gave us a bit of the history of how the recession had come about and the context in which these bonuses were being paid. Interestingly, however, his history stopped in 2006 or 2007, when he published a paper about the regulatory regime and the need for tighter regulation. To find out the true history of this, one has to go back to a time before 2006 and 2007, and beyond this country, to look at the sub-prime market in the United States in 2000. At that time, the proportion of mortgages in the United States that were lent to sub-prime borrowers was just 5%. Between 2000 and 2005, that increased to 47%. That meant that by 2005, 45% of mortgages in the US were in arrears by two months, or more than 60 days. That is the origin of the problem.
Much has been said by Government Members to try to set the recession in context. For months, they have said that it was because of the Labour Government’s disastrous economic management. Of course, the context for it is in the United States, where what happened with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the two major mortgage-lending institutions, was the beginning of the collapse of what had been a virtuous circle, and what became a vicious one. Those institutions could not lend because they were not getting revenues in, which was because people with mortgages were more than two months in arrears. That meant that there was a drying up of credit in the system in the United States.
One of my hon. Friends—I cannot remember who—mentioned the role played by the rating agencies. The way in which the situation impacted more widely on the economy, first in the United States and subsequently elsewhere, was through the securitisation of mortgages into bundles to create revenue streams for companies and, indeed, for financial institutions.
Andrew Gwynne
My hon. Friend is making a perfectly good point about the historical context of the global downturn. Is it not the case that the bubble burst because financial institutions across the globe were not certain about the packages that they had bought, because of the unpicking of those packages, and because of the percentages of those packages that were made up of bad debt?
Barry Gardiner
My hon. Friend is right, but perhaps he has missed a further element of that toxic mix. That is not the role of the rating agencies, although they played their part in bundling up sub-prime mortgages. In order to securitise them into revenue streams for companies, they had looked at the historical rate of default in the sub-prime sector in 2000, when only 5% of the market was being sold to sub-prime borrowers, not in 2005, when the figure was 47%. The effect was that many companies had security streams that were not very secure. The piece of the toxic mix that we need to introduce is the way in which hedge funds brought to bear their financial might.
The Temporary Chair
Order. The hon. Gentleman is not giving way to the Chair, but resuming his seat. He is giving an interesting explanation of the causes of the banking crisis. He must relate his point to amendment 9, which we are discussing, rather than dilating more generally on the subject.
Barry Gardiner
Of course I wish to abide by your ruling, Mr Gray. I am referring to earlier comments in the debate, which I am sure you heard, from the right hon. Member for Wokingham, who was not ruled out of order. He gave an interesting explanation of the history of what we are discussing.
The Temporary Chair
Order. I was not in the Chair at that time. It seems to me important that we relate the debate to what we are supposed to be debating, namely amendment 9. I am not aware of what happened previously, but I suggest that the hon. Gentleman relates his comments directly to the amendment.
Barry Gardiner
I am very happy to do so, Mr Gray. We are talking about a bank levy, and amendment 9 refers to
“the Government’s analysis behind the rate and threshold chosen for the bank levy”.
It seems to me that if one is to perform an analysis of the rate and threshold chosen, one has to understand how these things came about and the historical context. More importantly, one has to understand the regulatory context and what went wrong in the regulatory system. Much of the debate has been about that regulatory structure. I am seeking to address subsection (2)(a) proposed in the amendment. That is exactly the import of my remarks.
As the hedge funds brought their pressure to bear, they identified the problem of the companies’ overvaluation in the market. They saw that the structure of the bundled streams of security was not providing the security to the companies that the market believed it was providing. The hedge funds then short sold on those companies. That was an important regulatory failure. There was no uptake rule and no clear limit on the arbitrage window that was allowed for trading on such shares, so the short selling allowed the hedge funds to beat down the value of those financial institutions in such a way that there was a precipitation of the collapse of the credit that could flow through the financial institutions, which infected all the other companies in the stock exchange. That is how the situation became a global crisis.
In addressing the analysis that the amendment asks the Government to engage in, I urge them to take seriously the regulatory failings at that time. [Interruption.] The Financial Secretary says from a sedentary position that those were the mistakes of the previous Government. What I am pointing out to him is that they were not simply mistakes made by the previous Government, but mistakes that were made on a global scale. The financial crisis started in the sub-prime market in the US, and that infected the global markets. The reason that it took hold in the UK, to the detriment of this country, was that we had placed an over-reliance on the financial markets and the financial sector as opposed to manufacturing and industry.
Mr Kevan Jones
Does my hon. Friend agree that if we had listened to those on the Conservative Front Bench, including the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who did not want to intervene in Northern Rock and wanted to let banks go bust, the banking crisis in this country would have—[Interruption.] The Economic Secretary chunters from a sedentary position, but what I am saying was said by the—[Interruption.] She can keep chuntering, but the truth hurts. The fact of the matter is that if we had listened to the Chancellor—
The Temporary Chair (Mr James Gray)
Order. Interventions must be short. The tenor of the debate is moving widely away from the amendment that we are supposed to be discussing. The amendment is about the bank levy, the way in which it is raised and the way in which it affects the wider banking sector. I accept that there is a point about that, but we must return to our consideration of the amendment, rather than having such a wide discussion.
Barry Gardiner
I am of course always happy to abide by your ruling, Mr Gray, so I will move on to focus on the adequacy of the bank levy in the context of other reforms to the wider banking system. It is clear that those other reforms are necessary. We can debate the history at length, and we may take different lessons from that history about the type of regulatory reform that we wish to see, but I want to focus on the adequacy of the levy.
Mr Love
Is it not also the case that the taxpayer has given the banking system an unlimited guarantee, and that according to the Bank of England, we are subsidising the banks to the tune of about £100 billion a year? Yet even with all that support, they still demand that they should be able to pay massive bonuses.
Barry Gardiner
Indeed. The support that the country has given the banks is perfectly right, in my view. I disagree with the right hon. Member for Wokingham on the matter. He said that he would not have bailed out the banks at all. His position was very clear—he takes a very hard monetarist line and says that if the banks fail, they fail. Labour Members believe that the consequences of that failure cannot simply be ignored.
Mr Kevan Jones
Is that not exactly the line that the Chancellor took when he was shadow Chancellor? He argued that intervention was not important in the case of Northern Rock, for example. If we had followed what he suggested and had less regulation of the banking system, we would have been in a worse situation than we are now.
Barry Gardiner
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. To give the right hon. Member for Wokingham his due, he did distinguish his own position on the issue from that of his party’s Front Benchers. Both would have failed to support Northern Rock, the consequences of which would have been disastrous for savers, but the right hon. Gentleman would have gone further. He would have stopped any support for the wider banking system, including for Halifax, the Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds. There we see the consequences of policies that had their origin in “There’s no such thing as society.” Only if someone does not pay regard to society can they adopt such a hard-line position, because it ignores the consequences of failure and the effect on ordinary human beings—not just savers but, as he said, investors. The structural consequences of the failure would have been economically disastrous for this country.
Andrew Gwynne
Is it not also the case that the banking system is getting the best of both worlds? Over the past few years it has received very substantial support for the taxpayer, but at the same time as paying itself ever-increasing bonuses it is refusing to invest in local companies and valid business propositions in all our constituencies, thus hampering economic growth across the country. Is it not right that the bank levy is introduced for a second year and beyond through the reviews suggested in the amendment, so that we can get that growth back into the economy?
Barry Gardiner
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point in contrasting the lending policies of the banks with the bonuses that they seek to pay, particularly to their higher-end staff. The Government have to be much clearer in the regulatory demands that they impose on the banks, because they are speaking with forked tongue. On one hand, they are insisting that there is tighter regulation and that there is a regime to ensure that there are adequate reserves and far more stringency in the banks’ investment policies. On the other hand, they are on the side of business, urging the banks to lend more money. It is not possible for them to have it both ways, and we must not fall into that trap either. Either the Government have to say, “We want tighter regulation, and to hell with small business”, or they have to say, “No, we want small businesses to thrive, because we want growth in the economy”, in which case the regulatory regime for banks has to allow for that.
That does not affect my hon. Friend’s point, because he is absolutely right to contrast the bonus structure with the banks’ lending policy. The bankers expect the situation to be all good for them, but it is not so good when they are dishing out the money at the other end.
Andrew Gwynne
My hon. Friend is exactly right. Is not the real problem that we are actually getting neither of the things that he mentions? We are getting neither effective regulation of the banks nor money flowing into small and medium-sized enterprises.
Barry Gardiner
That is the sad fact of our situation. I am sure that all of us, as constituency MPs, have business people coming to us saying that they cannot get credit. Indeed, many successful businesses that have had no change in their circumstances are suddenly being told by their banks that their credit facilities are no longer there. The banks are unilaterally changing the terms of those facilities, and the Government must do something about that. They cannot on one hand let the banks off with a £20 billion tax allowance for bonuses and, on the other hand, say that they do not have to ensure that they are lending to small businesses.
The difference between Opposition and Government Members goes right to the heart of whether we believe that the most important thing to do is to get growth back into the economy, get money flowing into small businesses and pay people a decent wage rather than make them redundant—that means that their spending on goods and services does not contract, and they spend money on brown goods and white goods and generate wealth and jobs in the economy, so that we grow our way through the problems—or whether we believe that we have simply to cut, cut, cut the public sector and pay, pay, pay the bankers’ bonuses.
John McDonnell
I would welcome the amendment because I think it is time to stand back and review the future role of levies. The amendment seeks to prise out the Government’s analysis regarding the rate and the threshold of the levy, but it also gives us the opportunity to debate the overall adequacy of a levy and its role in the economic situation that we face.
I echo the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) in saying that the world has moved on and the role of bank levies is different now. The first early-day motion on this matter, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) and I eight years ago, in advance of the crisis, related specifically to the profligacy of the banks in their distribution of bonuses. We gained the support of 40 Members of the House. At that stage, the role of the proposed levy was fairly clear cut and straightforward: it was to act as a disincentive to the payment of such obscene bonuses, as others have described them.
Then, economic crisis hit us. The first sign was Northern Rock. I remember being in the Chamber when we exposed the role of Granite in Northern Rock and the tax fiddles, avoidance and evasion—whatever we want to call it—that were taking place. We called for the Government to use public ownership to nationalise and stabilise the banking system, but we added to that a call for the maintenance of a levy system, because we wanted to prevent a recurrence of the bankers’ bonuses during a period of recession caused by their profligacy.
As the right hon. Member for Wokingham said, the world has moved on, and we now have a bizarre situation. Yes, a levy on privately owned banks that are making profits and paying large bonuses is relevant, but introducing a levy on publicly owned banks is bizarre—it is a circular form of taxation—which is why the review proposed in the amendment is important. Surely if we own banks, we should end such bonuses by diktat and enforce reasonable lending using our management control. I hope that the review will examine the adequacy of future bank levy arrangements.
I compliment a number of my hon. Friends who have spoken in this debate, none more passionately than my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery), who reflected the climate of anger in which this debate takes place. There is anger about how individuals have been treated by the banks, but also anger about the impact of the banks on the overall economy. The impact has also been felt by families in the loss of jobs and cuts in services. If we are to have a review of the bank levy, I would welcome a commitment to absolute openness and transparency about the nature of the banks’ current operations. Many people are bewildered by the banks’ lack of adherence to the exhortations of successive Governments on the role that they should play, particularly in lending and long-term investment.
I welcome the proposed production of a report, but I would prefer it to be published earlier. The amendment proposes a deadline of “before 31 December 2011”, but I would want the report no later than the autumn, because I believe we need a tighter analysis and review regime for the banks.
I am no longer sure that the Government know what the levy is meant to achieve; they are certainly not clear on the appropriate rate, or even to whom and what the levy should apply. The previous Chancellor’s levy was clearly a bonus tax: it was an attempt to influence the behaviour of the banks and to end the remuneration system that encouraged reckless behaviour and the taking of excessive risk. The objective was also to raise income, although that was not the stated primary aim. Bizarrely—this is why I admitted an error earlier—the levy failed to influence behaviour, because the bonuses continued, but at the same time it was extremely successful at raising income. In fact, it was seven times more successful than was originally predicted. As I said, the original prediction was that it would to reap £500 million, but £3.5 billion was gained.
Mr Kevan Jones
Does my hon. Friend agree that if the levy was designed to change the behaviour of bankers, it has failed? Barclays, for example, paid more than £110 million to five of its top bankers.
John McDonnell
I agree with my hon. Friend, but I will come to that point later. The way in which the banks have continued their profligate distribution of bonuses looks like them cocking a snook at the Government and the level at which the levy has been set.
When the Chancellor appeared before the Treasury Committee, he advanced two arguments on how the levy was constructed. First, he argued that the levy was based on the price of the insurance that the Government and the taxpayer now implicitly offer for the wholesale funding of the banks; the levy is therefore a tax on the wholesale funding of banks’ operations. However, a calculation of the appropriate insurance for that scale of banking insurance, which could surely be done, would show that that sum is significantly more than the current bank levy proposal would raise.
The Chancellor’s second argument was that the levy was in the interests of equity: the banking sector, as well as the rest of us, should make a contribution to resolving the economic crisis. However, the amount that the bankers are being asked to provide to help to tackle the crisis that they created is piffling in comparison with the damage caused to our wider society, and minute in comparison with the burden that is being carried by others in terms of job losses and services cuts. Whole communities now face significant suffering and deprivation.
The Chancellor himself admitted that the targeted revenue sum was “relatively small” because, he argued, it balanced fairness with competitiveness, yet no study has been published and no evidence has been produced on the impact on banking competitiveness of varying the levy. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie), I want to know what independent assessments have been made of the balance between fairness and competitiveness and how the calculation was arrived at. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr Love), who said that the measure throws the Government’s commitment to tax simplicity out the window. The taxation system on this issue is now more complex than any other point of taxation in the tax book, so I endorse the questions about how HMRC, with its current staffing cuts, can cope with the implementation of the levy. I would also welcome the Government publishing the consultation on the assessment of the amount of tax take from the proposed levy, because it looks like consultation was either non-existent or fairly minimal.
The amendment would require the report to consider
“the adequacy of the bank levy in the context of other reforms”.
Our understanding is that the levy was set to assist the implementation of the Merlin agreement and to ensure that the banks had a lending strategy to help get the economy moving and out of recession. As others have said, the levy must be set so as to ensure a continued influence on banks’ behaviour in relation to remuneration and bonuses. While promoting the bank levy, the Prime Minister and Chancellor exhorted bankers to show restraint. Is the levy set at the right level to ensure that the other reforms linked to it are completed and adhered to?
Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)
The evidence of our eyes and ears of the relationship in recent months between the Chancellor and the Prime Minister and the bankers is that there has been one word from the Chancellor and another word from the Prime Minister, and the banks have continued to do exactly what they want.
John McDonnell
That is exactly my point. It might be that the levy is being set in relation to other banking reforms, particularly those on bonuses and remuneration, but not only have we seen the complete disregard of the Chancellor’s and Prime Minister’s exhortations, with bonuses continuing at a very high level, but we have seen, as another Member said, a diversion into other forms of remuneration and salary increases. That is almost an abuse of the system as set out in the Government’s proposals.
If the debate is about the adequacy of the levy, and in view of the fact that in spite of the Government having set down a marker in the proposals, bonuses have continued and remuneration has increased, can the Government not support the amendment? If the review reported at least by December—I would prefer the autumn—we could consider increasing the levy to ensure adherence to the wider banking reform proposals the Government want implemented. It is clear from the evidence produced today that the banks need a continuing threat—a sword of Damocles—hanging over their heads, if we are to get any change in the bonuses and remuneration that are so offensive to all our constituents suffering in the recession.
It might be that the levy was set so that the Merlin agreement could become fully operable and lending might start in earnest again. As my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East noted, however, so far all the indications are that the revival of lending has not taken place. The Government’s proposals therefore warrant a review at the earliest stage, because even now, while they are still being implemented, they are not working. The evidence for that is all around us. It is clear now—this is why the review is so important—that the levy has become almost irrelevant to the real issues of capitalisation and regulation.
Mr Love
I agree with my hon. Friend about the review’s importance. On the one side, bankers are telling us that they are lending money and that money is available to lend; on the other side, we have small business organisations united in saying not only that money is not available, but that the terms on which it would be made available are so onerous as to make it impossible for them to take out a loan. The review could resolve who is right and who is wrong.
John McDonnell
The review would certainly test the adequacy of the levy as an instrument for influencing banks’ behaviour, which I believe is its purpose. However, the problem is not just the lack of lending; it is the continuing profiteering in the mainstream banking system—let alone the shadow banking system that my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) has been so assiduous in exposing. In the main Budget debate, I highlighted some of the interest charges being made. A report by Moneyfacts last August showed that the profit margins enjoyed by the banks on fixed-rate deals are the highest since 1988, and that the average interest rate on personal loans was 12.6%, which at 12.1% over the base rate is an all-time high. So far, the threat of the levy has done absolutely nothing to change banks’ behaviour in any aspect, whether remuneration, bonuses or lending. We are in danger of allowing the banks not merely to return to business as normal, but to get even worse. Even those in public ownership are out of public control. I find that extraordinary.
The review must take place in the context of other attempts, such as the Basel discussions, to restrain or control banks’ behaviour. Basel II seems to let the banks off the hook on a range of issues, from remuneration to capital ratios. The levy is meant to come in the context of the reforms the Government are engaging in nationally and internationally, but the Financial Times reported today that discussions about global standards on bank lending risks are not moving towards an agreement, so now we are not even moving forward in capital ratio discussions.
We need to consider the levy in the context of the banks’ role overall and the anger in our wider communities. Many believe—rightly—that the banks played the key role in creating the recession, and now, if we are not careful, by not lending or engaging in economic growth, they will play a role if not in tipping the economy into a double-dip recession, at least in leaving the economy to scrape along the bottom of economic activity. I have referred before to the words of Graham Turner, from the Left Economics Advisory Panel. He works in the City and is an expert on what happened in Japan. We face the prospect of a long, low-level, depressed, deflationary spiral if we do not use the levy to stimulate the banks into playing a responsible role within our economy.
We will come out of recession only through an astute mix of fiscal and monetary policy. In the 1930s—this is the whole point about Keynes—it was about not just deficit funding and quantitative easing, but more importantly banking reform. Banking reform is one element of the strategy that any Government must adopt to take us out of recession, and the banking levy is one of the few tools and weapons at our disposal that can force through banking reform. So far, the threat of the banking levy has failed to engage even those banks that are in public ownership in a proper discussion about banking reform and the role that they will have to play in tackling the recession and encouraging economic activity.
Mr Kevan Jones
It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), who summed up the anger that is still out there among many of our constituents, who do not understand why neither of the parties that now form this push-me, pull-you coalition is following through on their rhetoric in the general election.
I support the amendment, which stands in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) and those of my hon. Friends the Members for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) and for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie). The amendment addresses clause 72 and schedule 19, which deal with the bank levy. The explanatory notes say:
“Clause 72 and Schedule 19 impose a new tax”—
the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington emphasised—
“the bank levy, which applies in relation to periods of account ending on or after 1 January 2011. The Schedule identifies who will be liable to pay the tax and how the tax is to be administered.”
The complexities have been referred to, some of which I will cover later.
I have already referred to the rhetoric that we heard in the lead-up to the general election. My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) has referred to the hobby of bashing bankers, which was certainly the sport of the day for the future Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister. In every TV studio that we saw them in, they talked about who would be tougher on the bankers, arguing that if they were elected, they would be as tough as possible on the bankers—who, as everyone recognised, got us into the mess whose economic consequences this country and our constituents are now facing.
Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
This is not just about banker bashing, as my hon. Friend will know; this is about an opportunity cost, particularly in regions such as ours in the north-east. My constituency did not succeed in securing any grants from the regional growth fund. It is that lack of opportunity, too, that makes people so angry.
Mr Jones
It does, and my hon. Friend makes a good point. The rhetoric from Conservative central office, now joined by the Liberal Democrats, is that we are in this economic mess because of the recklessness of the Labour Government, somehow forgetting both the international economic climate and the effects of the irresponsible lending by banks, on which the levy will now be imposed. My hon. Friend is quite right: I know that her constituency is facing a tough time at the moment, and not just in the public sector. A number of private sector companies are closing in Darlington as a direct result of the fiscal straitjacket that this coalition Government have put on the north-east region. Before the election the Prime Minister said that there would be a “day of reckoning” for bankers, but if this is a “day of reckoning”—[Interruption.]
Stephen Pound
Does my hon. Friend agree that we seem to have had an example today of the Sage of Twickenham being seduced by the subtle, perfumed blandishments of the banking industry? Might this not be time for us to say, “We’ve had enough of ‘Double Your Money’ and ‘Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?’ Let’s go for ‘Call My Bluff’”?
Mr Jones
That is exactly what the electorate will be doing: calling the bluff of this Government and asking whether they will live up to the promises that they made. Indeed, it is interesting that when I mentioned the Prime Minister’s “day of reckoning”, someone on the Government Benches said that it would be a bank holiday. If I was a banker, that is exactly what I would think this weak banking levy and these weak banking regulations were delivering.
The Deputy Prime Minister even joined in on the act, saying on Radio Sheffield that he wanted to
“wring the neck of these wretched people”.
I am not sure whether he was referring to the Conservatives or the bankers—or, after Thursday, some of his Cabinet colleagues, when the AV referendum delivers a no vote, which is how I recommend everyone should vote on Thursday. Despite all the overblown rhetoric, we have seen no action to follow it through. As was said earlier, many of our constituents cannot understand why, if we were going to tax the bankers through this levy—and thereby control their reckless behaviour, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington said—they seem to have completely ignored it.
We need to consider that when thinking about the appearance of the head of Barclays before the Treasury Committee, when he said,
“there was a period of remorse and apology for banks.”
I am sure that many of our constituents are very grateful for that. However, he continued:
“I think that period needs to be over”.
It might be over for him, but it is not over for many of our constituents, including those running small businesses who are struggling to get loans from banks. He went on:
“we need our banks willing to take risks…so…we can create jobs”.
Well, lending money to those businesses would be a start. Another starting point for doing that might also be Barclay’s five top bankers. They have just received bonuses of £110 million, which does not—
Andrew Gwynne
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Does he understand the dismay of those from small and medium-sized companies in Denton and Reddish who come to see me? They would not mind their banks being a bit more generous in their lending now and then. They cannot even get a decent proposal through their local banks for funding to expand their businesses. These are not risks; they are sound business proposals that would generate jobs in my constituency. No doubt the same happens in my hon. Friend’s constituency, too.
Mr Jones
My hon. Friend makes a good point. Those examples can be seen up and down the country.
Given the amounts of money that some of the directors of Barclays are being paid, they could lend money to those small businesses themselves. The two highest-paid managers, Jerry del Missier and Rich Ricci—great name!— were handed more than £40 million each after share deals awarded over the previous five years. Bob Diamond, the chief executive, took the helm in January this year and, in that period of remorse, has received £27 million, including £6.5 million in bonuses for 2010 and £2.525 million awarded in shares, which could be paid out in the future. The share deal for the past five years paid out £40 million, and the one for 2007 paid out £5 million.
We know about those amounts because of the Government’s great deal under Project Merlin to force banks to expose what their directors are being paid. If that was supposed to act as a threat to them, they seem to be ignoring us and doing it all anyway. They seem to have very tough hides, because rather than being remorseful for the mess that they got us into, they are still taking the money.
Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman is speaking of remorse. He was one of the more eminent members of the previous Government; is he remorseful about the pay-off given to Sir Fred Goodwin, who broke the Royal Bank of Scotland and who was given a knighthood by the previous Government and was a member of the council of “wise men” who advised the previous Chancellor of the Exchequer and Prime Minister?
Mr Jones
I had only a small walk-on part in the previous Government. However, when asked whether we can justify some of the bonuses that were paid, I would say no, we cannot. I agree with the hon. Gentleman about that.
When our constituents vote this Thursday, they should be aware of the lack of Conservative and Liberal Democrat Members present for this debate today. I note, however, that the hon. Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams), who speaks for the Liberal Democrats on finance, has referred to the Barclays bankers’ pay deal as “obscene”. As part of the coalition, the Liberal Democrats need to speak out loudly to ensure that something is done about the bonuses.
The levy is supposed to curb behaviour, but I agree with the hon. Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) that the greatest scandal is the bankers’ bonuses being paid by banks controlled mainly by the Government. For example, the Royal Bank of Scotland is 87% owned by ourselves as taxpayers, yet more than 100 of its bankers were paid a bonus of more than £1 million last year, totalling more than £1 billion. We are talking about the bank levy raising more than £2 billion a year, but the banks are paying out £1 billion in bonuses. That raises the question of whether the levy is high enough. If it is not going to change the behaviour of the banks it clearly is not high enough, and we should look in greater detail at the idea of raising the levy.
We have heard a lot of rhetoric on the regulation of the banks, but we have seen very little action. The bankers’ bonus tax raised £3.5 billion for the taxpayer, but the levy that we are now discussing will raise only just over £2 billion a year. The new levy will add about £800 million to that. The banks have got off pretty lightly. In addition, as my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East said earlier, they will gain about £100 million from the reduction in corporation tax from 28% to 24%.
The danger that was threatened by the banking sector to Labour when we were in power, and is still threatened today, is that if we do not allow these large bonuses to be paid, or if we charge the banks too high a levy, they will move offshore or elsewhere. The example of Sweden has been mentioned as the only example of that, however. I have looked into whether the lack of such bankers’ bonuses elsewhere affects where people live. An interesting survey has been carried out by eFinancialCareers, which looked at 2,511 bankers, 654 of whom were in the UK. It showed that bonuses rose by about 5% in this country, whereas in the United States they decreased by the same amount.
Andrew Gwynne
Why does my hon. Friend think that those on the Government Front Bench are so apprehensive about having a review of their own banking levy? Does he suspect, as I do, that the findings could show that it was not working?
Mr Jones
Indeed.
We need time to see whether the system is working, and whether it is a way of increasing the money that we get from the banks. At the end of the day, the taxpayer has put huge amounts of public money—rightly, in my opinion—into supporting the banking system. I do not agree with the suggestion made by the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) that we should have let the banks fail three years ago. If that had happened we would certainly have had a real problem, not only with Northern Rock but with a large number of other banks. That would have ruined the UK banking system, and there would have been international implications as well.
Mr Anderson
It is not only my hon. Friend who disagrees with the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood); the OECD disagreed with him as well, saying that the actions of the previous Government prevented the recession from turning into a depression.
Mr Jones
I agree with my hon. Friend. The Tory spin doctors forget that if we had followed the first reaction to the Northern Rock crisis from the then shadow Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), we would have let Northern Rock go, which would have had a knock-on effect on other banking systems and the recession would have turned into a depression. It is perhaps not fashionable to say it, but we should thank the Chancellor and the Prime Minister of the time for the decisions they took to ensure that that depression did not materialise.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
It is a pleasure to see my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) in the Chair. I understand that this is the first time a Northern Ireland MP has chaired a Committee of the whole House, which is particularly fitting on the 90th birthday of Northern Ireland’s formation as a state.
Does the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) agree that one thing that annoys people about the banks and their bonuses is that after the Government and taxpayer bailed them out, they went on to make excessive profits? Does he agree that some of those profits should be returned to the taxpayer and the Government to pay off the money spent bailing them out in the first place?
Mr Jones
I agree. I am sorry that I forgot to welcome Reverend McCrea to the Chair; it is a pleasure to serve under his chairmanship. The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. It was taxpayers’ money that rightly bailed out the banks; if they are making excessive profits now, which clearly they are, the banking levy would allow some payback.
If the Government are feeling timid and do not want to upset the banking sector, the amendment provides them with an obvious get-out by making it clear that there is a review at the end of the year that would enable us to see whether the levy was having a detrimental effect. Evidence to date suggests that the £3.5 billion that the bonus tax took out of the banking sector has not damaged the banking system in any way, shape or form. The public expenditure effects, however—they will affect my region and also the area that the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) represents—are going to be absolutely devastating.
Ian Mearns
I wonder whether my hon. Friend would reflect on the view of many of my constituents, who feel that the Government’s reticence in tackling the bonus culture or in tackling the banks in any tangible way has much to do with the number of Members sitting on the Government Benches who have an employment history within the banking sector?
Mr Jones
My hon. Friend brings me on to a new relevant area, because he shows how the banking and financial sector are able to influence the debate. The previous Labour Government as well as this Government might have been somewhat in awe of the threats made by the banking sector—for example, to move offshore, with a consequent effect on jobs, if too much regulation is imposed. It might just be coincidental, but since the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr Cameron) became Leader of the Opposition, donations to the Conservative party have increased, and about 50% of them come from the City and the financial sector, including some donations of £500,000 from four or five key individuals, including from Finsbury and Pelham PR, whose job it is to persuade politicians and other decision makers of the importance of, and the need for, the banking sector. As I say, it could be completely coincidental that the Tory party gets large amounts of money from this sector, but one could draw the conclusion that this is one of the reasons this Government have taken such a light-touch approach to regulation of the banking and finance sector.
Hugh Bayley
I wanted to follow up the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson). It was not only the OECD that praised the London summit, which got the leaders of the western world to work together through fiscal stimulus to avoid recession. I remember going to the IMF in spring 2009 and what it described as “the Brown plan” was, it said, the only thing that stood between a global financial meltdown and getting the world economy back on a level footing. Does my hon. Friend share my concern and dismay at the Prime Minister saying that he would not support the former Prime Minister if he decided to run for the job of managing director of the IMF? Surely the best way to test the Prime Minister’s thesis about whether the former Prime Minister’s leadership was good or not is to allow him to run and see whether other countries support his candidature.
Mr Jones
I would not want to stray too far down that avenue, but it does say something about the pettiness and smallness of our present Prime Minister, whereas the previous incumbent is not only respected in financial circles but has proven ability to do the job. Pettiness is one aspect of this Government but another part of their mantra is that they must sound tough. They won an election by sounding tough, but they have not followed it through when it comes to banking regulation.
The right hon. Member for Wokingham spoke about banking regulation. He is no longer in his place, but he used a wonderful phrase about his being in favour not of less regulation, but of “better and less regulation”. My hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) touched on whether the previous Government should have regulated the banking sector more. In hindsight, I think yes, they should. I think we all accept that; it is not an admission of failure to concede that. We also need to remember who else at the time was arguing, along with the right hon. Member for Wokingham, for less regulation and less red tape in all areas, including banking. The answer is, the Conservative Front-Bench team—those same Conservative Front Benchers who were arguing for the same spending levels that we had right up to 2007, although that seems to have been forgotten about in the revisionist history that has developed since they gained power with the Liberal Democrats last May.
The Government’s bank levy is estimated to bring in £2.5 billion a year—less than Labour’s bank bonus measures, which according to the Office for Budget Responsibility brought in £3.5 billion. We should not forget that the cut in corporation tax in 2011-12 will give the banks £100 million in tax relief, but that at the same time local government is being asked to make cuts. My own county council, for example, is going to lose 40% of its budget—£125 million—over the next four years as a result of the unnecessary austerity measure proposed by this coalition Government.
Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)
On a day when a leading economist has said that affordable income is falling by 2% and that the average family will be worse off by £780, it falls on the Government to support this amendment and show some care for the people who are working so hard out there and suffering while the banks are simply laughing all the way to the bank!
Mr Jones
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. One of this Government’s favourite soundbites is that “We are all in it together”, but it is quite clear that we are not all in it together. When bankers are claiming bonuses such as the ones we know certain individuals have got, it is just mind boggling to think about what could be done with the money.
Mr Ward
It is useful to have on record your opposition to the reduction in corporation tax, which will enable the companies concerned to employ many of the people about whom you have been talking. However, what really interests me is why, when the Government are monitoring every single day the repayment of loans to the banks, the effect of the tax levy and its adequacy, banks’ lending to businesses—which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), who is sitting next to you—and the strengthening of the banks’ balance sheets, you are prepared to wait—
The Temporary Chairman (Dr William McCrea)
Order. Let me draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to the fact that “you” refers to the Chair, and that I am not participating in the debate.
Mr Jones
I would answer the question if it were not so stupid. If the hon. Gentleman believes that the review would be delayed for too long, why does he not table an amendment demanding that it be produced immediately? I am happy to give way to him if he wishes to intervene again.
Mr Ward
If you are interested—if the hon. Gentleman is interested—in any of this, he need only table some written parliamentary questions. He could obtain answers to all of them without amending the Bill. This is absolute nonsense. The hon. Gentleman is prepared to wait eight months for answers that he could obtain in response to a written question.
Mr Jones
If the hon. Gentleman believes that it is possible to obtain all the answers that he requires by means of parliamentary questions, that demonstrates his naivety. Having been in the House for nearly 10 years and having, as a Minister, spent many hours trying to avoid answering parliamentary questions, I can only say “Good luck” to him.
Let me quote from the amendment—
Mr Jones
Then let me remind the hon. Gentleman what it says. It refers to
“the Government’s analysis behind the rate and threshold chosen for the bank levy”—
we have not yet been given that analysis, a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East—and to
“the adequacy of the bank levy in the context of other reforms to the wider banking system”.
We have heard a good many statements on bank regulation and on how the bankers can be made to lend more responsibly, but if the hon. Gentleman thinks that he can obtain the information that he requires by means of parliamentary questions, he is a better man than I am.
Stephen Pound
According to the current edition of Private Eye, when the hon. Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) enters a room, it lights up. No doubt my hon. Friend agrees with me that when the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) enters a room, a tenebrous gloom seems to hang around his shoulders. May I adjure my hon. Friend to resist the temptation presented by the hon. Member for Bradford East, and say quite simply that if the hon. Gentleman thinks that December 2011 is too late, we will happily consider an amendment from him that would introduce the damned thing next week?
Mr Jones
I agree, but I not am sure that it would help much. Given that subsection (c) of the amendment refers to
“the total tax revenues expected from banks across all categories of taxation in each year from 2011-12 to 2016-17”,
I think that that would be very difficult to do. However, I look forward to seeing all the written questions tabled by the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward). I am sure that his coalition partners in the Treasury are longing to get hold of them. May I suggest that the hon. Gentleman table his questions on a Wednesday on a named-day basis? That usually messes up Ministers’ weekend boxes.
Mr Jones
I am, but that is part of the scrutiny process, and so is this. If the hon. Gentleman is so interested in the banking levy and the effects of the Bill on his constituents, why does he not speak? At one point he was alone on the Liberal Democrat Benches. The Government Benches have been fairly deserted this evening: the poop deck of the Mary Celeste may have had more life in it. Members who support the proposal in the Bill should at least turn up to argue in favour of it. No doubt we will be receiving “Focus” leaflets from the Liberal Democrats—although after Thursday they may be called something different—describing how tough they have been in regulating the banking system, but it is clear that they have not.
The hon. Gentleman has until late tonight, and tomorrow, in which to contribute to the debate so that he can reproduce his contribution in his “Focus” leaflets ad nauseam, which I know the Liberal Democrats love doing. People will be able to learn about how he stood up for them against the bankers rather than just listening to the hollow words and rhetoric of the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister in the run-up to the general election. The beauty of being in government is that politicians can actually do things. I know it has come as a big shock to many Liberal Democrats that they are in a position of responsibility whereby they can actually affect the lives of ordinary people. [Interruption.] Yes, responsibility without influence, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) says from a sedentary position. As the Liberal Democrats are in government, they can follow through and make sure that the Bill deals with the people who were responsible for getting us into this mess three years ago. They also have an opportunity to tackle the excessive profits. I do not know what the average salary is in Bradford, but I am sure that £1 million is a lot of money to the people there. I know that in 1914, prior to the first world war, Bradford won the competition for being the place where the most Silver Ghosts were sold, because it was a rich mill town back then; I learned that from the predecessor of the hon. Member for Bradford East when I was working for him in a by-election many years ago. I doubt whether many Rolls-Royces are sold in Bradford nowadays, however, and the hon. Gentleman’s constituents can only dream of some of the bonuses he is supporting this afternoon.
Andrew Gwynne
Will not such a review serve to make it clear that many of the commitments made by the Liberal Democrats in opposition have not been implemented—and, indeed, have not even made it off the drawing board to become Government policy?
Mr Jones
Yes. I do not particularly like giving opportunities to Liberal Democrats, but it would give them an opportunity to show that they have the teeth that the Liberal Democrat Cabinet Ministers claim they have got in this coalition, because they would be able to say to the Conservative part of the coalition that they want change—that they want, for example, to increase the levy or to make sure that the huge bonuses being paid are taxed in a different way, or to bring in regulation. Let us be honest about this, however: most Liberal Democrat Ministers have not got sharp teeth—unless they have been to the dentist in the last few weeks. In the next few days we will see the beginning of the demise of the Liberal Democrats, and, as it were, the extraction of their teeth. It will certainly be interesting to see how sharp their teeth are after Thursday.
The current Government’s bank levy should take the same amount as the Labour Government’s bank bonus measure raised, which was £3.5 billion.
Mr Ward
As repeating the same point time and again is not a problem in this Chamber, I will do what everybody else here does and repeat myself: £3.5 billion is a lot less than £10 billion, which will be the amount generated—£2.5 billion times four years—so to talk about it as a reduction is just silly.
Mr Jones
This is becoming a bit like bashing Bambi to death. The fact of the matter is that the hon. Gentleman is either being very obtuse or something else that I will not say. We are talking about £3.5 billion for each year, which would add up to more than what is being proposed. We are talking about four times £3.5 billion.
Mr Jones
That is because I have said that we should do it again. I am sorry if the hon. Gentleman does not get that. He might say that it is a one-off deal, but perhaps it is a bit like one of those once and only, one-off sales that we see on television that furniture companies have every other week. I am proposing that we repeat the levy and raise that £3.5 billion again. Does he get it now?
Mr Jones
That was too subtle for me.
The important point was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East when he talked about what we would do with this money. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington said, if the levy is seen as a tax, it is a pretty meagre tax on the banks, as it raises a small amount of money. However, the question is still about what we then do with the money. We could put it into rebuilding the economy by investing in housing and the regional economy, as has been said. The Government have allocated £1.4 billion over the next three years to projects, which is two thirds less than the £1.4 billion that the previous Labour Government invested in regional development agencies per year. In regions such as mine, the north-east, companies and individuals have to bid for that money. A banking levy could come in very useful for the investment that is being put forward.
The problem with the Conservatives—the Liberal Democrats have gone along with this—is that they have this notion of “Public sector bad, private sector good.” What they have failed to realise in regions such as the north-east is that large-scale public expenditure cuts have a huge knock-on effect on the private sector. The unemployment level is already 10.2% in the north-east, whereas it was as low as 4% under the previous Labour Government. Durham university has done a study suggesting that if 45,000 to 50,000 public sector jobs in the north-east are cut, 20,000 jobs will actually go from the private sector. Regions such as mine had no responsibility for the mess, but those responsible for it could pay for some of that reinvestment and that could be done through the banking levy.
Ian Mearns
The point that my hon. Friend is making about the north-east economy is appropriate. Clearly the job cuts in the public sector have not yet hit the employment market, yet the statistics for last month showed that although there had been a national decrease in unemployment of 17,000, it had increased by 11,000 in the north-east, which has a population of only 2.5 million. That is happening even before the job cuts hit the market, so the situation up there is very serious indeed.
Mr Jones
It is very serious. What my hon. Friend describes will have an effect on the private sector and on what has already been seen in the banks. The Government have set great store by making sure that banks lend to small businesses. That was one of the things talked about at the general election by both the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats, but we have seen little evidence of it actually happening. As I said, it will be painful for many small businesses, particularly those in the north-east, when they see the amount of bonuses being paid to bankers and find that when they ask those same banks for investment they are told that either it is not available or that the terms on which it is available involve such horrendous rates of return. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) has said, the same may also be true of personal finance, whereby certain individuals who would in the past have got access to credit will no longer be able to do so.
Hugh Bayley
It is not just that banks are still not providing finance for small and medium-sized businesses. Under the Labour Government, we had support through the regional development agencies—Yorkshire Forward in Yorkshire—to help businesses with the Government loan guarantee schemes, and in my constituency that secured a very important investment for a packaging factory. The RDAs are now being done away with and so there is not that support from the Government to get the banks lending.
Mr Jones
That is right. My hon. Friend might have examples from his constituency—I certainly did—of the RDA underwriting small business loans for small companies when the banks, particularly Barclays and others, suddenly withdrew the finance. One company came to me that wanted a £1 million overdraft for six months to get some investment and the RDA helpfully underwrote that to allow the investment to go forward and create in the region of 25 new jobs. That is the important point about the relationship between the banking system and the regions.
Mr Robinson
Before my hon. Friend leaves this point, I would hate for the Government not to realise the impact that their refusal to have this levy or even a review of it is having not only in the north-east and the north but in the west midlands—the area from where the Government are apparently looking for the big revival in the private sector and manufacturing to come. Advantage West Midlands, the RDA, has had its funds cut by no less than 70% and schemes that were going to have the go-ahead, triggered either by a guarantee or seedcorn funding, will simply be stopped. The resurgence in manufacturing and of the economy as a whole will certainly not come from the west midlands, where the level of activity is below the national average and where the level of unemployment is above it.
Mr Jones
My hon. Friend makes a good point. That small seedcorn funding made all the difference for small companies as they established themselves and grew. The problem we have in the north-east—I am not sure whether things are the same in my hon. Friend’s region—is the lack of confidence in the regional economy for the reasons mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead. The uncertainty about what will happen in the next few months as the public sector job cuts work their way through the economy means that there is no appetite to invest in small businesses. A few weeks ago, I was talking to someone from a small building company who relied for part of his turnover on school building contracts with the local council, which had suddenly been stopped, so the money is not available and people will have to be laid off. We have not yet seen the effects of such decisions.
If we add to that the fact that banks are not lending and are going to carry on in their own way, those involved with small businesses end up wondering why decent hard-working people like them who, in many cases, have built up businesses over many years are suddenly through no fault of their own having either to lay people off or to fold the businesses completely. These are family businesses which have been going for many years, and people see individuals getting bonuses that involve amounts of money of which they can only dream and which are equivalent to the turnover for their companies over two or three years, never mind one year.
Stephen Pound
My hon. Friend has teased out a very important element of the amendment. In Northern Ireland, the public sector accounts for approximately 74% of all economic activity and for perfectly sound and understandable reasons the private sector has not been able to generate economic activity. I implore my hon. Friend, following on from his points, to take on board the reality of the situation: a reduction in expenditure could have a disastrous effect, especially in Northern Ireland.
Mr Jones
I agree. I spoke in the last Budget debate about the effects of the public expenditure cuts on the north-east and our dependence on public sector jobs is very similar to, if not as high as, Northern Ireland’s. This is another example of the nonsense that is being put about that suggests that if those jobs and that money are taken out of the economy we can somehow replace them overnight with private sector jobs. Those jobs are not just there; they are linked directly to public expenditure. If we also have a situation in which banks are not lending and companies are fearful of borrowing because they fear what the economy will bring in future, one can understand how we can get into a downward spiral. As I have said before, I fear that we could have a recovery that bobs along the bottom, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington has described. We could end up with a two-speed Britain with a boom in the south-east economy—possibly again drunk on the excesses of the financial markets—while regions in the north-east, Northern Ireland and elsewhere struggle and do not get a look in when it comes to the growth that is expected on the back of the huge numbers of jobs that the Government say will be created.
The bank levy is a missed opportunity and I do not think the amendment is at all radical. It is quite modest to ask for a review of the situation; the Government will have to review the levy sooner or later anyway. Political expediency will lead them to do so when it starts to dawn on people that, despite the rhetoric of the election, the Government are not being tough on bankers at all but are letting them off—and many people will ask why. I believe that in the past five years, since the Prime Minister became its leader, the Conservative party has accepted about 50% of its donations from the financial sector; that prompts questions about why it is not taking a tougher and more robust stance against the financial sector.
Let me conclude with a few questions that I think the Minister needs to answer. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East raised the issue of the tax-free allowance of £20 billion. The explanatory notes on clause 72 and schedule 19 state:
“Paragraph 6 sets out the steps to be followed in order to ascertain the amount of the bank levy. The steps show how the allowance of £20 billion is to be applied and how the bank levy charge is calculated for long and short chargeable periods. Part 6 of the Schedule provides details of how to identify the entity responsible for payment of the bank levy.”
I have asked why the figure is £20 billion and not £5 billion, £10 billion or £50 billion? [Interruption.] Hon. Members say “Higher!” but we have not heard any explanation why £20 billion was the figure arrived at. If we are not only to maximise the amount of money we get from the banking levy but be able to justify to our constituents how fair the measures are, we must be able to explain how that figure was arrived at.
Mr Robinson
Does my hon. Friend know why the Government set £2.5 billion as the absolute limit for the amount they wanted to raise from banks and made everything fit with that? Does it not all come down to the fact that the Government have struck an awful deal with the banks? They have limited so much and got Merlin in return—and perhaps some other things to which my hon. Friend has referred but which I shall not go into now. They have tied themselves in knots, complications and contortions to deliver this deal and the banks have simply walked away from Merlin saying, “Thank you, very much.” Is not that the problem?
Mr Jones
My hon. Friend makes a clear point. I do not know which wag in the Treasury came up with the nickname Merlin for this project. Having dealt with the Treasury and Treasury Ministers I have never thought of them as having a sense of humour, but whoever came up with that name clearly had one. Again, my hon. Friend makes a good point. There is no explanation for the figure of £20 billion other than the yield that it is intended to produce. The Minister needs to provide the evidential basis for the £2.6 billion yield. If we levy, for example, £2.7 billion, £2.8 billion or £2.93 billion, at what point do the Barclays bankers pack their bags and move to Zurich? Would the entire system of bankers' bonuses fall apart if the figure were more than £2.6 billion?
I have raised the issue already, and I accept that international finance is a global business and can move, but in terms of bonuses, bankers are clearly not bothered about the £2.6 billion figure. May we see the evidential basis on which the figure was arrived at? What would be the effect if it were a little higher or lower than £2.6 billion? It is important that we know that.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. The Government would be helpful to us if they clarified the figure that they think would be the tipping point. Would it be £3 billion, £4 billion or £5 billion? We want the banks to be profitable and to lend money to our constituents, but at what point would they move overseas? The Government have so far failed to tell us.
Mr Jones
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. That is the acid test. The Government must explain why they set that figure. I am happy to listen to the evidence—even the evidence that the hon. Member for Bradford East could come up with. I do not think we are anywhere near the tipping point at which the entire banking system crashes, especially as Barclays and others are paying large bonuses. If we had a review and analysis, we could see how the figure was arrived at. Unfortunately, we are in the dark about that.
A further point is the progress that the Chancellor has made on tax activities. If we are to remain competitive internationally, is there an international tipping point across Europe in respect of bank levies and caps on bonuses?
The hon. Member for Bradford East seems to be dreaming if he thinks he will ever find himself in the Front-Bench team of the Liberal party or the coalition, but it is nice to see him sitting on the Government Front Bench.
Is work being done internationally to look at what other countries are doing? We need to study that in detail to see whether £3.5 billion would be too much. We need to achieve agreement across Europe.
The subject of Project Merlin has been raised. What leverage does the Treasury have over lending to SMEs? To what extent will the cost of the levy be passed on to customers of the commercial or private sector—in other words, to all of us who use banks? Will it become more difficult for SMEs to borrow money if bank charges are passed on? To explain Project Merlin, much more needs to be put forward. A review would enable us to look in detail not just at the bank levy, because we must remember that the amendment also relates to other areas of banking tax. That would also lead to the public having a lot more confidence in politicians actually following through on their rhetoric about being tough on bankers.
Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)
It is a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), whose eye for forensic detail and lucidity in these matters are second to none. He could not be described as brief, and on this occasion I intend to be a bit briefer. The amendment seeks a review of this proposal because, at its heart, this is about equity and fairness. You, Dr McCrea, understand better than anyone what fairness and equity mean.
There has been much talk about small business men. A small business man came to see me a month ago about the lack of finance from Barclays bank. It is true to say that even though we all have stories of small businesses that are unable to get loans, many constituents come and ask Members specifically not to contact their banks, because they are scared, frankly, that they will be cut loose and that the intervention of a Member of Parliament could make things worse. The fact that across the Chamber no party is suggesting that we have got back to a situation in which there is access to loans indicates that industry and small businesses in this country are in a very serious way.
That brings me to the other deceit, or conceit, that lies at the heart of what has been suggested. Much has been made of the manufacturing sector. Yes, it is hugely important, but it employs 4 million people or thereabouts, whereas 23 million are employed by the service sector, which is a depressed sector. That is perhaps why, alongside the public sector cuts we are now seeing, unemployment in Tottenham is the highest in London. The levy, set at the right amount and consistently reviewed, could have done something to ameliorate that.
It is about fairness and equity, and it is also about what the Government’s story on growth really is. Some of what we are hearing on how they see the levy and the box into which they want to put it, with the constraints of £2.5 billion only, can only mitigate the growth that we want to see in our constituencies.
The single mums who came to see me a few weeks ago because the after-school activity club is being cut for their young children and they are wondering how they are going to get back from work by half-past 3 to pick them up need to feel that bankers, too, are making a contribution. The elderly suffering from Alzheimer’s in one of my local residential homes, against a backdrop of three being closed because the local authority is being squeezed, need to feel and want to believe, because of the age they have reached and the contribution they have made to this country, having paid into the system, that the banking sector is also making a contribution that is fair. The many public sector workers who received their payslip for the last time just a few days ago also want to believe that bankers are making their contribution.
These people cannot understand why, despite the fact that growth in our economy is so sluggish, at barely 2% over the most recent period, City workers are taking home an increase of 7% on average. Why have 231 workers at Barclays bank managed to receive bonuses of £554 million between them? How is that possible, when the dividend for those who have shares in that bank was just over £600 million? That is a bonus culture that has not been checked, that has not been sorted out, and that feels brutally unfair.
When I was canvassing in Slough at the most recent general election, a 90-year-old said to me, “Love, you know what it is? The poorer you are, the more you give in this country.” That is how it feels at this point, when we have to come back to a subject on which really we ought to agree. We know that the banking sector led to this depressed economy, so why should it be let off the hook at this time?
When my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham asked, “Where did we get this £20 billion from?”, I asked the Minister to begin his contribution with the answer. Where did that £20 billion allowance come from? It is a staggering amount of money to slot in at the last minute so that the figure drops beneath the £3.9 billion mark which the industry itself originally predicted. Where did that money come from, and how did we secure the millions in tax relief for that sector? We owe a bigger contribution from the banking sector to the young people of this country, one in five of whom is currently unemployed.
This Government have led us to a situation in which the new arrangements for funding higher education are between the student solely and the university. They have taken the state entirely out of the picture, cutting teaching funding by 80% and abandoning arts and the humanities and any contribution to them. Effectively, with a proper banking levy they could have said that the state could stay involved. Industry, the other sector that benefits, could have made a contribution, too, but the banking sector is certainly somewhere where we could have started. The Government, however, turned their face against that, saying, “No, we’ll land the debt on our young people and let the very people who have led to their unemployment off the hook.”
I want to understand why the Minister has made that decision, and how we will get back to growth, given that young people are to be dealt with in that way.
Mike Gapes
My right hon. Friend asks why. Is it not clear why? This is a Government of millionaires and toffs, and they are in the pocket of the banksters. That is what it is all about.
Mr Lammy
My hon. Friend is exactly right.
The Government’s rhetoric prior to the general election about what they would do with the bankers, and about recklessness and bankers paying their dues, led some to believe that at least we could agree that bankers were responsible for the situation and that they should make a contribution—and a serious one at that, which we should constantly keep under review for obvious and clear reasons. As my hon. Friend the shadow Minister said, the amendment is incredibly tame: it simply asks for a review and says to the Minister, “Can you look at this again?” It seems reasonable to ask him to do so, given that the state of our economy could change between now and Christmas, but he has said no even to that. As other Members have suggested, that can only be because of the slightly peculiar relationship between the Conservatives and the many friends in the sector who bankrolled them. That is unfair, and it is not right, and the public know it. I suspect that on Thursday we will see that they have sensed this injustice in the balance of how we should deal with the difficulties that we face.
It is not the first time that we have had a debate in this House about how we deal with an economically depressed situation. There are those who believe that we should invest—in fact, reinvest. That is a Keynesian approach to growth from the same party that did not back away after the second world war, when this country was in rubble, but invested in the NHS. Then there is the party that says we should cut, and the cuts fall hardest on the poorest while those who can afford to make a bigger contribution get let off. Yes, there is a balanced argument as to why one would support a reduction in corporation tax: in order to see growth in the economy. However, when people set that tax reduction against this levy, which is minuscule relative to the huge sector that has brought us to this point, and then against the £20 billion tax relief that has come out of nowhere, of course they get suspicious. I hope that the Minister will explain why this proposal is fair to a young person who is one of the one in five who are unemployed, to someone who is experiencing their local authority cutting services that they desperately rely on, or to a public sector worker who has just received their last payslip because they have lost their job. Will he also explain how it gets us back to growth? If he is to let off this sector of all sectors, how are we to develop that growth strategy and generate the funds for the investment that we need to stimulate recovery?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that we must move from retribution to recovery. That is an interesting play on words. What most Labour Members want is not retribution but reciprocity—a bit of give and take, and something that is fair and honourable. I have to say to the Minister that this proposal is deeply dishonourable, unfair and wrong, and he should come to the Dispatch Box and explain why the simplest of reviews is not possible on this occasion.
Mr Love
I congratulate my next-door neighbour and right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) on a very competent speech.
It will not come as a surprise to those in the Chamber that I support the amendment. I support it primarily because there is so much public interest in and concern about bankers’ bonuses and the contribution being made by bankers when we are all supposed to be pulling our weight. I also support it for the reason given by the shadow Minister: a peculiarity of our system is that we cannot amend upwards any proposal in the Finance Bill, and the amendment offers an alternative way to look critically at the levy by proposing a review, which is not unreasonable. By December, we should have some idea of how it is working.
The most important feature of the amendment, as discussed earlier, is that it asks for a report to be published that can be debated by this House. Because of the importance of the issues involved, that is critical. The report will include an account of how the rate and the threshold were decided. As we have watched the measure’s development over the past few months, we have started to have a sneaking suspicion that Ministers decided what amount of tax should be paid by the banks and then worked back to what the threshold and the rate should be. I will come back to that point later.
Much has been said by Opposition Members about the measure’s adequacy. It is right to say that it will not raise as much as the bank bonus tax did and it is felt widely, within the House and outside, that the levy does not reflect the contribution that bankers ought to make. That relates to new subsection (2)(c) in the amendment. I will come back to bankers’ bonuses, because they have an important implication for the contribution that bankers should make.
In what the Government propose, we are being asked to agree to a levy on UK banks and building societies and on the UK operations of foreign banks. It is estimated that it will affect between 30 and 40 institutions, covering all the largest financial services institutions in the City of London and throughout the country. That proposal seems reasonable, but it is important that it is reviewed to see whether it is appropriate.
The tax will be levied on what the Chancellor termed the wholesale funding of banks, which is the liabilities and equity minus a number of items that are considered safe, such as tier 1 capital and insured retail deposits. I think that we are being asked to agree that that will incentivise the use of prudent balance sheets, rather than risky balance sheets. Of course, the wholesale funding that the Chancellor talked about was a major cause of the difficulties in the credit crunch. We all remember the collateralised debt obligations and the exotic funding regimes, although I do not think that any of the major institutions are into any of that now. The proposal, which mirrors the proposal that was discussed internationally, is intended to incentivise our banks to hold safer liabilities than they held before.
Many Opposition Members have commented on the threshold of the tax, which has been set at £20 billion. I hope that the Minister will respond to the concern that that figure is far too high. The rate has been a moveable feast, and there have been many different rates and proposals. As was mentioned earlier, the Chancellor got up one morning—it just happened to be the day of Treasury questions—and announced another change. Changes have also been announced presumably because of corporation tax, and there has been concern that the rate may have been raised as a result of the failures of Project Merlin, which I will talk about later. We have had many different threshold rates, and I ask the Minister to clarify how we reached all those rates, where we are now and how much money the levy will raise. It is suggested that it will raise between £2.5 billion and £2.8 billion, which, as other Opposition Members have said, seems a very low figure in the present situation. I hope that he will respond to that concern.
What is the levy meant to achieve? Supposedly, it deals with a number of matters. First, numerous speakers have mentioned the implicit public subsidy that we provide to banks. The Bank of England has done some work and suggests that there is a £100 billion subsidy; others have suggested lower figures, but there is consensus that the figure is very substantial. If the bank levy will raise only one twentieth or one fortieth of that sum, that puts the matter in context.
To pick up on a point that the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) made, the bank subsidies make life for new entrants to the marketplace—they are called challenger banks—very much more difficult, as they do not have any of those subsidies, reflecting the idea of banks being too important to fail. That notion should be the crux of our discussion about the financial services sector, because it raises the question of moral hazard: will banks that are too important to fail take riskier decisions, as happened in the lead-up to the credit crunch? I would like the Minister to explain how those issues relate to the levy. We understand that it will provide only part of the contribution that has to be made, but what contribution will that be?
I mentioned banks being incentivised to hold less risky liabilities. The reason for that is clear: if things go wrong, it is not just the financial services sector that is affected. Unlike other industries, in which problems affect other companies in the same industry, if the financial services sector hits difficulties, the whole economy is hit, as we found out to our great cost in 2007. It is critical that we reduce the possibility of that contagion happening in future.
We must deal with a number of issues peculiar to our financial services sector. Many believe that too much is concentrated in four or five very large banks and that as a result there is not sufficient competition. I will not go into the details of the Banking Commission’s report or the most recent Treasury Committee report, but those who have read them will know that both have strongly suggested that consumers do not have a great deal of choice in our banking system, that the banks are too concentrated and that it is very difficult for new banking companies to come into being. There is not sufficient competition and, by common consent, the cost is that banks make excessive profits. The levy should tax those profits. I would like the Minister to say whether he believes it will do that sufficiently.
To return to a point that I made a few moments ago, in the light of the subsidy given to the banks—£50 billion is one suggestion, £60 billion is another and the Bank of England says it is £100 billion—a levy of £2.5 billion, which is between a twentieth and a fortieth of that subsidy, does not seem to address the problem that we face. Why does the Minister believe that the measure answers the concern about the financial services sector?
I could be more generous and suggest that the Government are moving in the right direction. After all, all the changes in the rate of the banking levy have been increases—from 0.07%, to 0.075%, and for longer held assets, from 0.04% to 0.05%. I think I got those right, but I would be unsurprised if someone stood up and said, “You’re wrong. It’s changed,” or if I woke up tomorrow to find that the Chancellor had re-announced the rate. Those changes have raised the take from the levy by £200 million or £300 million, so that £2.5 billion will be raised in the first year. However, as I said at the start of my speech, given how the £20 billion threshold was constructed and the rate changes, we cannot escape the conclusion that the Government have set the overall amount that they wish to take and then gone back to work out the threshold and the rate. I should like the Minister to explain why that is not the case.
Of course, critically, at £2.5 billion or £2.8 billion, the levy does not raise as much as the bank bonus tax, so the suggestion—I put it no stronger than that—is that the banks are getting off lightly. The corporation tax reduction—corporation tax seems to have been constructed because the banks do not invest a great deal but have high turnover—and other changes could have been ideally designed for the banks. There is therefore a suspicion that banks are doing really rather well out of this year’s Budget. If that is not so, I should like the Minister to tell us why not.
There are many good reasons why the Minister should have been more draconian in introducing the levy. After all, as has been said by many hon. Members, when the coalition parties were in opposition, they told us that negotiations between the Government and the banking industry on proposals such as Project Merlin would produce certain results; on bonuses, however, the Government got absolutely nowhere. Statements were made about constructive negotiations, so it was embarrassing to find bankers telling us that there was no change.
Of course, still more critically, we were told that small businesses are the lifeblood of our economy—that mainly small businesses in the private sector would make a reality of the Government’s so-called strategy of getting the private sector to take up the slack created in the public sector. If they are to achieve that, they need to grow.
Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)
May I draw my hon. Friend back to the use of the bank bonus tax to promote growth? We heard last week that the construction industry was struggling to come out of the recession. Of course, applying the bonus tax and giving it to the construction sector to, for example, build affordable homes, which are very much needed in my constituency and many others, would have helped to stimulate the economy.
Mr Love
I agree with my hon. Friend. Clearly, the sector of the economy that has lost out the most is construction. If the Government intend to contribute only the homes bonus and changes to the planning regulations to the construction industry—they are creating uncertainty up and down the country—I foresee a bleak future for the construction sector in the next two to three years. I urge the Government to consider that carefully. They say they have a growth strategy but they do not, and we are now suggesting one. It would repay them to listen to what people are saying and to address the inadequacies of their response, particularly in the construction sector.
Mike Gapes
My hon. Friend mentions the national insurance holiday for new businesses, but it discriminates against London and Londoners. Some of the poorest people in the poorest communities in the poorest boroughs in this country are in London, as are some of the areas with the highest unemployment, yet the national insurance holiday does not cover London, which he, as a London Member, knows as well as I do.
Mr Love
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. He is correct. When that legislation was passed, we argued that many parts of London had suffered tremendously from the credit crunch and were as deserving as—if not more deserving than—other parts of the country. However, that argument was not listened to. Perhaps the policy would be a little more successful if the Government had included London, along with all the other parts of the country.
The policy has clearly not been a success. The Government’s growth strategy is not producing growth. I would therefore like to suggest an alternative growth strategy, the merit of which is that it was beginning to bear fruit at the time of the general election.
I will pick out just a few areas at which the Government need to look carefully, while searching their conscience and trying to construct a positive growth strategy and address these concerns. First, youth unemployment is just about topping 1 million. One in five of our young people aged 16 to 24 are unemployed, and to focus on getting young people back into work, as we were trying to do before the general election, would pay dividends. We shall lose a whole generation if we do not address the youth unemployment problem, and that should be a priority for the Government.
Mr Robinson
The whole House will agree with my hon. Friend that youth unemployment is the single biggest threat on the unemployment front at the moment, at 20% and rising. Was not the cancellation of the future jobs fund a short-sighted, perverse reaction by the Government that could well result in a repeat of what happened in the 1980s—a whole generation being lost to the working population because of the rise in youth unemployment?
Mr Love
Yes, the future jobs fund was the very vehicle to provide a job, training or relevant work experience so that our kids did not have to sit on the sidelines without a future, getting demoralised and not being in a position to take up the job opportunities that will be available when the economy turns round. It is a dereliction of duty on the part of the Government not to address that issue.
Nic Dakin
My hon. Friend is giving a cogent and coherent analysis of the amendment before us. Does he not agree that the review suggested in the amendment represents a real opportunity to find the money needed to invest in young people and their job opportunities? It is not too late for the Government to address this error.
Mr Love
Absolutely. The merit of the amendment is that it would give Parliament, and particularly the Government, the opportunity to review the operation of the levy, as well as providing the banking sector with other opportunities to make a contribution to sorting out some of the deep-seated economic problems in our country. I hope that the Liberal Democrat part of the coalition will be sympathetic to our arguments and speak up where it matters, to try to get the Government to recognise that there is an alternative that would be good for the economy and good for our society.
A second issue is house construction. In my local authority area we have the fourth worst housing stress in the country. Things are difficult, and they are going to get significantly worse. I mentioned earlier the Government’s incoherent construction policy, with its homes bonus that is not a bonus, and its planning system that is so riddled with inconsistency and lack of certainty that major construction is now off the agenda. It is a system that allows local considerations to dominate and outweigh much-needed construction in different parts of the country. I can see only a bleak future for public and private housing construction—but our proposal provides one small, modest way in which the Government could improve the situation.
Mrs Chapman
Does my hon. Friend agree that it is not only the house builders who have a hard time when the construction industry suffers? In Darlington last week, we heard the announcement of the loss of almost 200 manufacturing jobs in a company that builds conservatories. Obviously, that is a difficult business to be in with the construction sector in its present state.
Mr Love
I agree entirely with my hon. Friend, and I hope that someone on the Government Front Bench is listening. These are urgent problems.
Let me mention two other brief points about a growth strategy. We do not have a Sheffield Forgemasters contributing to growth. I remind Government Members of that because a viable, well-thought-through and supportable project was put forward, yet it has still not received any funding—
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. As we know, we are debating the bank levy. There has been some stretching of the debate already, and we are in danger of stretching it even further. We have had a good debate so far, and I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will want to keep to the amendment.
Mr Love
I bow to your advice, Mr Hoyle. I will conclude my remarks about the lack of a growth strategy by saying that as an optimist, I believe that it is never too late. I hope the Government will think carefully and recognise that the growth strategy they produced on paper simply does not respond to the real needs of the economy.
I finish where I started, by commending the amendment to the Government. It poses no threat to them; it simply seeks to review the bank levy system that they are introducing. They will know, because they have spent a great deal of time on this, just how important the public think the role of the banks in getting our economy sorted out is. After all, it is widely perceived that the banks were the main cause of the problem in the first place, so people are looking to them to help our economy in a meaningful way. For the reasons that I have stated, the amendment will address some of those issues and provide an opportunity to examine how the levy is working in December. I hope that it will provide us with an opportunity to straighten out and ensure that the levy really addresses the needs of our country.
Mr Hoban
Amendment 9 seeks to require a report into the effectiveness of the new bank levy, which is introduced in clause 72. I will come to the components of the amendment shortly, but I think it would help hon. Members if I first explained the role and features of the levy.
The levy is a new tax that will ensure that the banks fairly contribute to the Exchequer, while encouraging them to move to less risky forms of funding. This levy forms part of the Government’s far-reaching plans for banking reform. We have already announced an overhaul of financial regulation, marking a break from the light-touch regime championed by the shadow Chancellor when he was the City Minister. We have created an Independent Commission on Banking, which published its interim report last month and is due to publish its final report in September.
When Labour Members were in government, they refused to debate the structure of the banking sector. They were afraid of banking reform and they were afraid to understand and tackle the lessons from the financial crisis. This debate would have been better if one of them had had the courage to accept the failures of the previous Government on the regulation of the banking sector. Not one of them did so. I think this whole debate is a cover for their bluster. When we proposed in March last year to introduce a bank levy, on a unilateral basis if necessary, Labour Members were against it. The then Chancellor was against it and the present leader of the Labour party, who wrote the Labour manifesto, was against it, too. What we have heard today is a whole load of bluster, rhetoric and empty words about how we must tax the banking sector properly when Labour Members lacked the courage to champion these moves when they were in government. We have taken the lead on the issue, when they would have hung back and waited for international consensus and agreement. We have taken the lead, as I say, and France and Germany have joined us in announcing levies. Others have since followed, including Hungary, Austria and Portugal.
The hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) made great play of the various rates that other countries were introducing. Let me point out to him, then, that in France the levy is expected to raise only €500 million. In Germany, the levy is expected to raise €1 billion annually. The hon. Gentleman prayed in aid the US on two occasions, but the US has not yet introduced legislation, so his comments are empty—
Chris Leslie
On a point of order, Mr Hoyle. I understood that this was a Committee stage, and that we were considering the Bill in detail. Is it usual practice for a Minister responding to a debate not at least to give way and allow a dialogue on the clause in question?
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
That is not a point of order. It is up to the Minister to decide whether to give way, and I am sure that he heard the cries for him to do so.
Mr Hoban
Subsection (2)(a) of the amendment requires a report on
“the Government’s analysis behind the rate and threshold chosen for the bank levy”.
It might help Opposition Members if I explained how we designed the levy, and why we set the rate and threshold as we did. The levy is intended to ensure that the banking sector makes a fair and substantial contribution, reflecting the risks that it poses to the financial system and the wider economy. It is intended to encourage banks to move away from risky funding models, and complements the wider regulatory agenda to improve standards and enhance financial stability. During the crisis, it became clear that some banks had become over-reliant on short-term funding for long-term lending. When financial markets seized up, those banks were exposed.
I must emphasise that the levy is based on the liabilities of a bank, not on its assets. It is based on the bank’s deposits, its share capital and loans made to it, not on loans made by it. It applies to the global balance sheets of UK banks, building societies and banking and building society groups, and to the UK operations of banks from other countries.
In determining the scope of the levy, we concluded that foreign banks operating in the UK also posed potential risks to the UK financial system and the wider economy, whether they operated as branches or as subsidiaries. It therefore follows that they should contribute on the same basis, and branches and subsidiaries of foreign banking groups are included to ensure that they cannot avoid the levy by group restructuring. That will ensure the provision of a level playing field for all banks operating in the UK.
The levy will be paid by between 30 and 40 building societies and banking groups, and we have made it clear that we expect it to yield about £2.5 billion of revenues each year in its steady state. That appropriate contribution balances fairness with competitiveness, and the rates of the levy were chosen to allow it. We initially announced that a reduced rate would apply for 2011, recognising the uncertain market conditions prevailing at the time, but we no longer consider that to be necessary.
In December the Bank of England noted that the near-term outlook and resilience of the UK banking sector had improved. Markets also now have greater certainty about the timing and direction of regulatory change, with the Basel III regulatory reforms being introduced in 2013 and transition periods being extended to 2015. We therefore decided that from 1 March this year, the full rate of the levy should be introduced for 2011. The levy will now yield £2.5 billion in that year. The steady state target yield was set out last year, when we also announced our intention to make significant cuts in the main rate of corporation tax.
Mr Hoban
I am going to continue my speech.
We were clear at that time, as we are now, that the bank levy yield far outweighs the benefits that banks receive from the corporation tax change. Other sectors will benefit from the reduction in corporation tax, but the banks will not benefit because of the levy. In the March Budget, the Chancellor went further in helping our economy to grow, and announced an additional 1p reduction in the main rate of corporation tax. At the same time, to offset the benefits to banks from that further cut and maintain the same incentives for them to move to less risky funding, we announced that the rate of the levy would increase from 1 January 2012, to 0.078%.
The threshold has prompted some discussion. The initial announcement on the bank levy last year proposed that it would include a threshold of £20 billion. However, as part of the subsequent consultation exercise, we explicitly sought views on whether it would be preferable to make it an allowance rather than an all-or-nothing threshold. A threshold would provide a cliff edge that banks would avoid by restructuring. Respondents to the consultation made that clear to us, and even suggested that banks, or indeed building societies, might avoid growing their UK operations to avoid the threshold and to avoid paying the levy. We accepted that argument, and have therefore decided that there should be an allowance on the first £20 billion of liabilities liable for the levy. That means that smaller banks, building societies and foreign banks with a small UK presence—that is, those whose liabilities are less than the £20 billion allowance—will not pay the levy.
The allowance will ensure that the levy is proportionate to the risks inherent in banking businesses of different sizes. It balances the probability that the failure of a bank could pose a systemic risk against the relative burden imposed in order to gather additional revenue at the margin. While size is not the sole factor in determining risk to the system, it is an important one. Increasing the allowance would risk excluding banks or building societies that are highly likely to pose a systemic risk if they fail. Similarly, setting the allowance at a lower level—which Opposition Members seem very keen on doing—would risk imposing an unnecessarily high burden on institutions that do not pose a systemic risk to the UK economy in the way that larger banking institutions do. These details, along with many others, have already been made public, and I am sure that the Opposition Members who tabled the amendment are aware of the steps the Government have taken to explain the basis of the decisions. All tax measures now have a tax information and impact note, which sets out clear information relating to the measure and its impact, and which has provided a significant amount of analysis on the levy so far. It is clear that there is no need for a report to provide an analysis of the rates and threshold of the bank levy.
Let me turn to the second element of the amendment.
Mr Hoban
Let me make progress. The hon. Gentleman spoke for over an hour and I am responding to the speeches made in five hours of debate. I therefore think the hon. Gentleman should hear me out, after which I may consider taking interventions.
Let me turn to the second element of the amendment, on the adequacy of the levy in the context of other reforms to the wider banking sector.
Mr Lammy
On a point of order, Mr Hoyle. In Committee, when Ministers have not answered questions from Back Benchers, is it normal for them not even to give way? Surely the Financial Secretary could simply photocopy what he is reading out, and send that to all of us so we can go home?
The Chairman
That is not a point of order. It is up to the Minister to decide how he wishes to reply to the debate.
Mr Hoban
I think that is the best suggestion the right hon. Gentleman has so far made in this debate. I shall send a copy of my speech to all hon. Members who are interested in it, so they can then go home.
The levy is a permanent tax, and is part of our wider package of far-reaching reforms. It is designed to be consistent with global regulatory practices, drawing on proposals from the International Monetary Fund and reflecting emerging proposals from the Basel committee. Excessive risk taking in the financial sector was a significant contributory factor in the recent financial crisis. As I said earlier, the levy is intended to encourage banks to move away from riskier funding.
The levy should not be seen in isolation from other reforms to the banking system. Domestic, European and international banking reforms will change the landscape of banking. For example, Basel III will lead to higher capital levels, and its liquidity reforms will change the funding profiles of banks. There is a vigorous debate within the EU and the G20 about whether the holders of bank debt should be required to contribute to the recovery or resolution of banks, for example through the conversion of debt to equity. As I said earlier, we have established an independent commission on banking to consider structural and related non-structural reforms.
The hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr Love) raised issues to do with the implicit guarantee, to make sure the right reforms are in place so banks are not dependent on the guarantee from the taxpayer. We have tackled that issue, whereas when his party was in government, it failed to do so. I wish he would give us some credit for the action we have taken to reform the regulation of the banking system during the year in which this Government have been in office.
The final element of the report calls for information on the total tax revenues expected from banks in each year to 2016-17. We have been clear that we expect the levy to raise about £2.5 billion each year. We have also taken other steps to ensure that banks pay their fair share. The previous Government introduced the code of practice on taxation for banks, but they utterly failed to get banks to sign up to it. They talk tough now, but they failed when in government; only four of our leading 15 banks actually signed up to that code of practice when they were in office. By the end of November, however, all the top banks had signed up to the code, and by March 2011 some 200 banks had adopted it. We therefore need take no lessons from the Labour party about getting the banks to sign up to codes.
We are very clear that banks should make a contribution reflecting the risks they pose to the UK financial system and wider economy. While amendment 9 calls for a report, this Government are delivering action. We have already set out the reason for the rates chosen and the decision to set an allowance at £20 billion. We have been clear on how the bank levy fits with and complements our wider reform package and we have been clear that we expect revenues from banks to grow as the economy recovers. We have also secured agreement from the top banks on the tax revenues they expect to pay over the spending review period. We are raising more in this levy than the previous Government raised through their one-off bank payroll tax. Labour Members refused to introduce a bank levy when they were in government. We backed it where they have failed to act and I ask hon. Members to support the clause.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).
The Chairman
Order. I think it would be of interest to the House to hear from the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie), and I am sure that he will not take too long.
Chris Leslie
Thank you, Mr Hoyle. The Chief Whip really needs to take a breath and perhaps calm down for a moment. [Interruption.] I did not quite put it in the way that the Prime Minister might.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury usually does act honourably by trying to respond to the debate, and probably he secretly would have done so today. Our debate was wide ranging and we covered a number of specific points on the detailed design of the bank levy, with which he entirely refused to engage. He refused to give way in this Committee stage of the Finance Bill, which shows the Government’s thinly veiled contempt for the parliamentary process. No debate, no scrutiny and no contributions came from those on the Government Benches, other than the speech by the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood). They have accepted absolutely no challenge and no scrutiny. They have put their heads down and ploughed on—the Lansley strategy of policy making in action.
The Financial Secretary gave no explanation of why the Government set the banking levy at this puny £2.6 billion or why they have given a very generous tax-free allowance of £20 billion to the banks. Their original design, as set out in June, could have netted £3.9 billion, but when the banks complained the figure went back down to £2.6 billion. He says that we should not criticise the levy for being set at such a low rate because the French levy will raise less, but of course it will because the French banking sector is smaller. The fact is that our banking levy is being set at a third of the rate that the French are pursuing. He did not answer any questions on the netting of derivatives, the double taxation treaties or what would happen in terms of accounting practice. He certainly did not address the outrage in the country, never mind in the House, about the continuing appalling abuse of bonuses in the banking system. That is an obscene ongoing process and although bonuses might reduce slightly in one year, that is offset by the increase in the salaries that those bankers are enjoying. He did not even address the new loophole he is introducing in the Bill so that those enjoying deferred bonuses will now be able to pay the tax rates in future years, thus perhaps avoiding the 50% income tax rate when eventually the Government scale back from that.
Mr Kevan Jones
Does my hon. Friend agree that we had a wide-ranging debate, including on bankers’ bonuses, and that the Financial Secretary did not even address that issue in his wind-up?
Chris Leslie
Astonishingly, the Financial Secretary, having had his coat tugged by the Government Chief Whip, did not even address many of these points at all. As I say, the right hon. Member for Wokingham made his points about the role of the state-owned banks, how they ought to behave and how perhaps they would change their behaviour in a different market position.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) made an important point about the comparison between those who enjoy exceptionally high bonuses and ordinary working people who, I think he said, might take 125,000 years on average to earn the bonuses that some bankers earn in one year.
My hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) said that the Government have no mandate for their approach, and that is absolutely true.
My hon. Friends the Members for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) and for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) also made important points about the feeble nature of the design of this element of bank taxation.
My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), in his rapid canter across the landscape of banking taxation, made a point about the obscenity of bonuses, which the Government have singularly failed to address through their failures on Project Merlin. My right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) talked about the impact on his constituency of the public services that will be cut because the Government will not pursue the sources of revenue that could be necessary to help ameliorate some of those reductions.
My hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr Love) made, I think, the most important point of all: our amendment is no threat to the Government. We are simply asking for a review and a report on the levels of bank taxation and the banking levy. The Government are introducing a tax cut for the banks and the bank levy proposal is weak and fails to ensure that banks pay their fair share. This is a simple amendment that is surely unobjectionable and I think we should seek the Committee’s view.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
I beg to move amendment 7, page 12, line 36, at end add—
‘(8) The Chancellor shall publish, within 3 months of the passing of this Act, an assessment of the impact of taxation on fuel prices.’.
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
With this it will be convenient to discuss clause stand part.
Kerry McCarthy
The backdrop to today’s debate is an economy that is flat-lining, as the Chief Secretary to the Treasury admitted last week. Since the Chancellor’s spending review, we have had no economic growth, and it is ordinary people who are hardest hit by that stagnation, with 2.5 million people out of work, including nearly 1 million young people—one in five 16 to 24-year-olds. An increasing number of people have been jobless for more than a year—nearly 850,000 and rising. This year, as the Government’s cuts start to bite, hundreds of thousands more people could lose their jobs. I believe that that is what the Minister of State at the Cabinet Office called an
“immediate national crisis in the form of less growth and jobs than we need.”
Apparently, it is what the Chancellor describes as “good news” and a sign that the economy is on the right track. Families are feeling the effects of the crisis in their pockets. Prices are still rising by more than 5% on the retail prices index, while earnings are growing at just 2% a year.
Rising fuel prices are a big part of this squeeze. According to the Office for National Statistics, fuel prices are currently one of the most significant contributors to consumer price inflation. According to this week’s figures from the Department of Energy and Climate Change, the average UK pump price is now £1.36 for a litre of petrol and £1.42 for a litre of diesel. I am sure that many Members will be aware that at their local petrol pumps prices are even higher. That means that petrol is more than 3p a litre more expensive than it was last month, or 15p more than this time last year, and that diesel is 3p more expensive than last month, or nearly 20p more than last year. Unfortunately, the 1p saving we got from the Chancellor’s cut in fuel duty lasted barely a week before price rises at the pumps wiped it out.
Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
My hon. Friend rightly draws attention to fuel prices. Does she not find it extraordinary that the coalition Government are proposing to subsidise fuel prices in some of their friends’ constituencies, thereby increasing by default the duty on those in many of the urban constituencies that we represent?
Kerry McCarthy
My right hon. Friend is quite right that the Government are looking for a derogation in some rural areas, but only a very limited number. When the House last discussed the proposal, considerable representations were made by Government Members who argued that if there was to be a derogation, other areas should also benefit from it and that it was unfair that just a few remote islands should see the benefit.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)
The argument that a derogation in remote and rural areas is somehow an increase elsewhere is an interesting one. Should we take it from that that the hon. Lady is opposed to the road equivalent tariff being implemented in the Western Isles as well?
Kerry McCarthy
The point that my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) was making was that if taxes are to be cut for some people somewhere, but the same amount of revenue has to be raised, that means that someone else is subsidising it. That is a fairly simple point to take on board.
As I was saying, it is not just rising fuel prices that are hitting people. Rises in fuel prices feed through to higher food prices and higher energy prices for household bills. Despite a recent up-tick, the OECD estimates that food prices in the first quarter of this year were nearly 6% higher than they were last year, and energy prices more than 9% higher. As real incomes fall, spending on basic items, such as food—[Interruption.]
Mr Kevan Jones
On a point of order, Mr Hoyle. You have many attributes, but you do not have eyes in the back of your head. Would it be possible for you to ask those Members behind the Chair to leave the Chamber in order to reduce the noise level, so that others can follow the debate?
The Chairman
I must admit that, if there was noise interference, I did not know where it was coming from and could not hear it in front of the Chair. I am sure that Members will be quieter in future.
Kerry McCarthy
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) for that, because it certainly seemed quite noisy from where I was standing.
As I was saying, as real incomes fall, spending on basic items such as food, energy and fuel makes up an increasing proportion of the average family’s weekly spend, as the Office for National Statistics acknowledged in March when it changed the make-up of its retail prices index basket. That means that families are increasingly vulnerable when prices rise quickly.
The Opposition accept that no Government can control the price of oil, which the global markets set, and that the situation in the middle east is affecting people in countries throughout the world, to which the UK is of course no exception, but the Government have control over fuel taxation, and that has a significant effect on pump prices. When so many people are out of work and real wages are falling, the Chancellor has a responsibility to do all he can to help business and to promote economic growth and jobs; and when ordinary working people are struggling to make ends meet, he has a responsibility to do everything possible to help them get on.
That is why we tabled amendment 7. It is important that Parliament has the opportunity to scrutinise the Government’s policies on fuel taxation and their total effect on fuel prices at the pump, because the Chancellor’s cut in fuel duty, as set out in clause 19, is not all that it seems. In January the Government decided to increase VAT on fuel from 17.5% to 20%, even though the Prime Minister told voters just before the election that he had “no plans” to increase VAT. Without that VAT rise, petrol would be almost 3p cheaper now, swamping the 1p cut that the Bill brings in.
The Federation of Small Businesses said that the UK’s small and medium-sized enterprises would be “severely affected” by that hike in fuel tax. A survey of its members in January pointed to the increase as the single biggest threat to their business—something that will resonate with Government Members, who I am sure have been lobbied by the FSB on that point. Some 89% of businesses that responded thought that the Government’s measures would add £2,000 to their costs over six months. A spokesperson for the FSB said in response to the January rise in fuel tax:
“The Government have said it is putting its faith in the private sector to put the economy on a firm footing, yet 36% said they will have to reduce investment in new products and services and 78% said their profitability will be reduced—hardly conducive to growth.”
Many small business people in my constituency are struggling to stay afloat, particularly in the face of cash-flow difficulties. The VAT increase at the beginning of this year was expected to put severe strain on their cash flow, so the Chancellor’s 1p reduction in fuel duty has to be seen in that context.
Some people will be able to cut down on their use of fuel or even stop using petrol all together. Some people are switching to cycling or to public transport, and for those who are able to do so that is a good thing. As an MP for Bristol, which saw investment from the previous Labour Government so that it could become the UK’s first cycling city, I welcome people taking up cycling.
Mr Kevan Jones
The argument that my hon. Friend puts forward is very interesting, but does she agree that the situation is difficult for rural constituencies such as mine, where bus subsides are being cut because of the Government’s cuts to Durham county council and some communities will not have any access to any public transport whatever?
Kerry McCarthy
My hon. Friend makes an absolutely valid point, which I was just about to turn to. Some people will say that the rise in fuel prices is an incentive for people to use public transport such as buses, but they can only do so if they are in an area that is well served by public transport. Bus subsides are being cut, and increasingly some areas—particularly remote rural areas—are being completely left without a bus service, meaning that people simply have no choice but to use their car. They include not just people who are poorly served by public transport, but those who run businesses and have to visit customers and suppliers and transport goods throughout the country. They include those who have to run around in the morning dropping children off at different schools or at nursery and then get to work on time, and many other people besides. At a time when fuel prices are rising, adding to them with extra tax is hammering people at the worst possible time. These are often families who are already running a very tight budget, and even a few extra pounds a week on their bills makes a real difference to their ability to get by.
Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab)
Has my hon. Friend noticed the projections for the increase in household debt under this Government? The Office for Budget Responsibility is projecting that it will increase by more than £500 billion this year and over the next five years, and it is also saying that the reason for this is not only inflation but the comprehensive spending review and the Budget.
The Chairman
Order. We must keep questions to the subject of the amendment that we are dealing with.
Kerry McCarthy
Before the election, the Economic Secretary said in this House during a debate on fuel duty:
“What people want from the Government today is a helping hand to get them out of their financial troubles. Instead, what they see from the Government is no help at all. Far from providing a hand to pull them out of their troubles, the Government are pushing them further down into them.”—[Official Report, 16 July 2008; Vol. 479, c. 359.]
How astonishing, then, to find that that is exactly what she and her Government are doing. They may have made a show of helping people up with a small fuel duty cut, but that is after they have given them a much bigger push down with their VAT rise on fuel. Before the Chancellor gave his Budget statement, Labour Members called for him to look again at the fuel duty escalator, which I think the Economic Secretary is muttering about from a sedentary position. In previous Budgets, we cancelled or postponed fuel duty rises when pump prices were rising quickly. In the 2010 Budget, the then Labour Chancellor phased in the increase for that year in three stages to ease pressure on business and household incomes. In the 2008 Budget, the previous Government postponed the increase in fuel duty for six months, again to support the economy and help businesses and families. We therefore welcome the fact that the Chancellor has done so again in this Finance Bill. However, when that cut is put in context, we see that families and businesses are facing more pressure than before as a result of the Government’s policies on fuel tax.
This is not the only policy in the Bill that is not all that it seems when it is put in context. The Government have made much of their increase in the personal allowance for income tax. The Chancellor said:
“The increase in the personal tax allowance already announced will vastly exceed anything lost through employee NICs uprating”.—[Official Report, 23 March 2011; Vol. 525, c. 954.]
However, he failed to mention that the rise in the allowance is swamped by his VAT rise, which will take £450 a year, on average, from the pockets of families with children. Families earning as little as £31,000 could lose their child tax credits as the Government take £400 million out of the system, while the Government’s Welfare Reform Bill creates uncertainty for families over whether they will keep their child care support and free school meals. In a couple of years, a family with two children with a single earner earning just £44,000 could find that the Government have taken £1,750 a year away from them in child benefit. It is no wonder that the Institute for Fiscal Studies said that the Chancellor was
“giving with one hand…and taking away with lots and lots of other hands.”
Nor is it surprising that the economist Roger Bootle said today that household incomes were “all but certain” to fall.
All this comes at a time when Government cuts mean front-line cuts in services that people rely on—schools, the NHS, social care, even the police—and workers in those vital public sector jobs are facing redundancies. The Government may say that some factors are outside their control. When we were in government, oil prices rose substantially, as we are seeing now, but we left government with a proportional tax take on fuel lower than when we came into government—down from 75% to less than 65% on petrol and down from 74% to 64% on diesel. It is no coincidence that under the last Conservative Government fuel taxation shot up from 66% of the price of petrol in 1992 to 75% in 1997, and from 66% to 74% for diesel.
The Minister of State for International Development made the front pages in March, saying:
“if this does go wrong”,
referring to the Budget,
“£1.30 at the pump could look like a luxury, $200 a barrel is on the cards”.
He can hardly have expected that remark to put a stop to speculation in the oil markets.
Rather than helping people through the tough times, the Government seem to want to make things worse. There was an alternative for the Government. Before the Budget, we called on the Chancellor to scrap the hike in VAT on fuel. That would have been of genuine help to families and businesses.
Andrew Gwynne
Is my hon. Friend, like me, extremely surprised at the lack of ambition from the Government parties when it comes to seeking a derogation for the rise in VAT on fuel? Given that President Sarkozy managed to get a derogation on VAT for French restaurants, does she not think that the British Government should do the same for fuel?
Kerry McCarthy
My hon. Friend makes a valid point, which I will come on to in a moment. [Interruption.] Ministers are peddling the line that it would take six years to achieve such a derogation from the EU. I ask them, have they even tried? I suspect that the answer is no. It is a fairly defeatist attitude to say that we will not even ask because we know what the answer will be. That is not fighting for Britain’s corner in the European Union.
As I was saying, there was an alternative for the Government. We called on the Chancellor to scrap the hike in VAT on fuel, which would have been of genuine help to families and businesses. It could have been paid for from the £800 million more than expected that was raised from the bank levy. Unlike the stabiliser proposed by the Conservatives in the run-up to the general election, that would not have been “unbelievably complicated and unpredictable”, to use the words of the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills.
The stabiliser is based on the idea that taxation will vary according to fluctuations in petrol prices, so that
“when fuel prices go up, fuel duty would fall. And when fuel prices go down, fuel duty would rise”,
to use a direct quotation from the Conservative party consultation document on the issue. The stabiliser was a flagship policy for the Conservatives in the general election campaign. The present Prime Minister made an issue of it when he visited a Coca-Cola plant in Morley just a week before polling day, where he said that
“it would give you certainty as you go about your lives, knowing what your salary is, knowing what your mortgage is, we’d be helping with the cost of living by trying to give you a flatter and more constant rate for filling up your car”.
When the Conservative party got into government, it soon realised that that was an empty promise, made glibly without doing the homework required, as we have seen with so many of its policies in its year in government. In the Budget, the Chancellor resorted to a different so-called stabiliser by increasing the supplementary charge on North sea oil. We will discuss that issue later tonight when we come on to the next group of amendments.
It is true, as my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) mentioned, that asking for a special rate of VAT would require our asking for a derogation from the European Commission. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury said that the Government could not afford to “sacrifice income willy-nilly”. However, he was willing to go to the EU to ask for a derogation for remote islands, although not for the rest of Scotland or the UK. Even members of the Conservative party agree that the solution should apply to the rest of the UK.
Justine Greening
I just want to check that the hon. Lady is aware that she is talking about two entirely different taxes. The tax that relates to rural areas is fuel duty, and the other derogation that her party is unwilling to accept is illegal to pursue relates to the EU VAT directive.
Kerry McCarthy
I am making the point that there are precedents for applying to the EU for a derogation, and I will come on to examples of other Governments who have done so.
I was about to quote the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), who said from the Conservative Benches when we were debating the rural derogation:
“The pressures that affect the islands of Scotland and the Scilly Isles affect our constituents too.”
He went on to say that
“if any solution is applied to one part of the United Kingdom, it must be applied to other parts of it as well.”—[Official Report, 16 March 2011; Vol. 525, c. 352.]
Incidentally, we have heard reports that the Chief Secretary’s derogation on that issue may be approved by this summer, after he applied only on Budget day. That is rather quicker than the six to seven years that the Government have claimed would be needed for a broader derogation on VAT for fuel.
The French Government were willing to go to the EU to ask for special dispensation for French restaurants, and several member states have asked for other derogations in the past. Derogations have been granted for goods as diverse as fertilisers, pesticides and works of art, and for services from amusement parks and hotels to cleaning and cable television. In 1994, the British Government secured a derogation for domestic fuel, and in the past derogations have been granted to some member states for reduced VAT on goods such as heating oil.
Justine Greening
Since the hon. Lady gives a whole list of derogations, perhaps she will also be prepared to tell the Committee how long they took their respective Governments to achieve.
Kerry McCarthy
As I said before, the Economic Secretary invents a mythical time frame which she says it would take for her to achieve a derogation from the EU on VAT on fuel. I have asked her several times now in various debates whether efforts have even been made to raise the subject with the European Commission, and answer has come there none.
Justine Greening
The hon. Lady obviously does not know the answer, but I do—it took more than six years. Does she think motorists should have to wait six years before her party’s policy can come into effect? It is unlikely ever to be accepted.
Kerry McCarthy
The hon. Lady invents a mythical obstacle to achieving a derogation, without even having tried. Many of her Back Benchers who are constantly urging Ministers to stand up to the European Commission will be very disappointed that they are using the Commission as an excuse. They could have avoided this situation by not introducing the rise in VAT on fuel earlier this year. They should have considered the consequences before entering into such a policy.
The UK has not applied for as many derogations as other member states. We have only one reduced rate, which is used largely for energy and energy-saving materials and a number of health products, as well as the zero rate. France, Italy and Poland have each secured three different reduced rates of VAT, in addition to a zero rate, so there is clearly scope for the UK to ask for a little more.
While Labour was in government, we never applied for a special rate of VAT on fuel, but the reason for that is simple: we never raised VAT on fuel in the first place. This is a problem that the Government have created, so rather than simply telling the Committee that a derogation would be illegal, perhaps the Economic Secretary can once and for all tell us whether the Government have made any serious attempt to start negotiations with the European Commission on the matter, or whether they are simply capitulating to the Commission without putting up a fight.
We have tabled the amendment so that the Government’s fuel duty cut will be shown for what it really is—a 1p cut that is wiped out by the 3p a litre increase resulting from their VAT rise on fuel. It comes at a time when petrol prices are already rising rapidly and reaching record highs, when families are already squeezed and when the economy is struggling to grow. It comes after the Government refused to take the alternative approach that we put forward, which would have been a genuine help to families. The amendment means that the Government will have to face up to the fact that they have made the wrong choice at the wrong time and are harming, not helping, working people.
Alison McGovern
I rise to speak in favour of the amendment, which states clearly that the Chancellor should publish
“an assessment of the impact of taxation on fuel prices.”
It is a short but, I think, highly important amendment, not least because fuel prices are a key part of our economy and have an impact on inflation. I want to say a few words about why taxation on fuel has a bearing on inflation and why that is at the heart of some of the economic problems that we face today, not just from a dry, technical point of view but from the perspective of families in Wirral, Merseyside and elsewhere who are struggling at the moment.
This country has previously dealt with severely high inflation, but for many years we have had relatively low and stable inflation. That is also true across the globe. The nature of the fuel industry means that fuel prices have a specific impact on inflation, but I would point out that inflation in the UK is slightly higher than in the rest of the EU. That should be a warning signal to us. I am not particularly hawkish on inflation and on saying that fuel prices could drive problems in our economy. We need to recognise not the danger of returning to the days of terribly high inflation, but the danger of inflation of nearly 5% when wages are being held down, which limits people’s quality of life. People see food and fuel price increases when they go to the shops or fill up their cars—as my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) correctly said, food prices are partly driven by fuel prices—yet their wages are held down, so at the same time, they face higher prices in the shops and less in their pay packets every month.
Justine Greening
The hon. Lady mentioned VAT. Given her concerns regarding the increase that she says the Government introduced, did she vote against it?
Alison McGovern
The VAT increase that the Government have introduced is clearly highly regrettable. I might just take the opportunity of the Minister’s intervention to correct a common way of phrasing what happened under the previous Government when my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, temporarily lowered VAT. Government Members often say that Labour increased VAT, as though the decrease was not intended to be a temporary measure to help the economy. There is a difference: the Labour Government helped people through with a cut in prices, but this Conservative-led Government think that the future of taxation in this country should be higher prices in the shops.
Mr Kevan Jones
A more relevant question to ask Conservative Members is why during the election they made a promise not to put up VAT, given that the first thing they did when they came into power was increase VAT.
Alison McGovern
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I thank him for that intervention.
We voted against the measure to put up VAT because it was not right to increase pressure on prices in the shops that everybody pays no matter what their income.
Alison McGovern
And that is a fundamental principle that Labour Members hold dear.
Stewart Hosie
On a point of order, Mr Hoyle. It is entirely up to the hon. Lady to give way as she sees fit, but when the Scottish National party moved to strike out the VAT rise, Labour most certainly did not vote for it. Could she correct herself—
Alison McGovern
Thank you, Mr Hoyle. It would be testing your patience not to stick to the amendment, as I shall endeavour to do for the rest of my remarks.
All Members will realise that the average family, the average couple and the average pensioner are facing a more and more difficult situation as the money coming in has to be stretched even further, and with prices going up in the shops. That is people’s experience. The impact of taxation on fuel prices and its role in driving up inflation and driving down living standards requires investigation and careful thought. This is not just my view or that of just some economist: when I looked into the possible causes of rising inflation in the UK, the first person I thought might have the answer was the Governor of the Bank of England, who, in his letter to the Chancellor about why the Bank had not met the inflation target, cited the VAT rise as one of the inflationary pressures facing the country.
As I said, I am not some inflation hawk who holds to a 1980s antediluvian economic philosophy that inflation is necessarily bad. Some countries have had relatively high inflation as well as growth. However, the important thing about taxation and fuel prices, and their role in inflation, is that it is possible to build in inflationary expectations in the long term through some of these measures. I wonder whether the Government have really thought about what they are doing in not combating some of the issues related to rising prices that we have seen.
There is also an obvious link with people’s worry about the lack of investment at this time. There is no doubt that investment means jobs today and productivity tomorrow, and therefore a more effective economy that enables people to have a better standard of living at less cost. That has to be the aim. At the moment, the Government are balancing the books using VAT and extremely flat taxes that do not pay regard to people’s income. They are asking people in my constituency on relatively modest incomes to pay the same higher prices at the fuel pumps as people in the Chancellor’s constituency down the road in Tatton, who by and large—not universally—are a bit wealthier. That is not fair.
We have to consider carefully whether the increased taxation on fuel resulting from the VAT rise is having a negative impact on the economy in a wide-ranging sense. It is not only about whether fuel prices are up—obviously that could be the result of several things—but, most especially, about what that is doing to inflationary expectations. We need to consider whether it is having a damaging impact on the broader economy, and whether it is a disincentive to growth and productivity improvements in the UK. We also need to consider what it is doing to the living standards of people such as those whom I represent in Wirral and Merseyside who have seen living standards fall severely in the past two years.
Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
I am sure that my hon. Friend would agree with the old adage, “You can’t fool all the people all the time”, but that is exactly what the Chancellor tried to do with his 1p tax cut to fuel duty. However, is it not the case that since the Budget, petrol prices have gone up several times more than that 1p tax bribe, and that the VAT increase in fuel duty is causing damage to motorists and businesses—
The Chairman
Order. I am ruling that interventions must be short and letting the Committee know that we will be taking only short interventions.
Alison McGovern
My hon. Friend makes an important, if a little lengthy point. People will not be fooled, because they will see fuel prices going up and ask themselves what the Government have done to help. People are connecting the impact on prices across the board with what happens when they fill up the tank. When they go to the shop, they see higher prices all around them and they wonder where they are coming from. There is one clear answer: No. 11 Downing street. The Chancellor has decided that people will have to pay more in the shops. Let us not imagine that he has said, “Well, I’m sorry everyone. These are tough times—we’re going to ask you to put your hands in your pockets until we can lower VAT again.” Rather, this is a permanent rise that will build in higher prices for the long term. Given the downward pressure on wages, the really worrying thing is that the rise is building in not only a reduction in quality of life, but inequality, which is very worrying and will hurt for many years to come.
Ian Mearns
I know that we are in Committee, but let me take this opportunity to send my best wishes to parliamentary colleagues from the north-east region who are unwell at the moment—the hon. Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) and my hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass), who are both incapacitated. I am sure that the House joins me in sending our best wishes to them both.
The amendment calls for the Chancellor to publish an assessment of the impact of taxation on fuel prices within three months of the Bill being passed. I will concentrate on the differential impact of fuel duty policy in the English regions. I say “regions” with some trepidation, because I know that the very concept, or even uttering the word, causes phobic shudders in some quarters on the Government Benches, but an analysis of road freight statistics by the North East chamber of commerce has demonstrated the extra burden that fuel taxation places on businesses in regions such as the north-east. Each tonne of freight brought in or out of the north-east of England delivers approximately £4.16 in fuel taxes to the Exchequer; although that figure probably changes daily, it is 18% higher than the average for English regions, which is only £3.52, and 74% higher than the figure for London. That analysis shows that more careful consideration should be given to fuel duty rates’ economic impact in regions and to differential rates.
Road freight statistics show the extra distance travelled by goods transported into or out of the north-east compared with other parts of England. Every tonne of freight transported by road into or out of the north-east travels an average of 119 miles, compared with an average of 111 miles for businesses across the whole of England. Only businesses in the south-west of England transport freight further by road, with each tonne of goods going into or out of the south-west travelling an average of 192 km, which is ever so slightly more than the average of 119 miles for the north-east. Duty on diesel is currently at about 58p a litre.
Mr Kevan Jones
Does my hon. Friend agree that the impact of fuel duty is exactly the kind of issue that could be raised in the proposed report?
Ian Mearns
That is exactly what I am suggesting such a report could achieve.
The VAT chargeable on the duty element of the fuel price brings the total impact of fuel duty to about 69p a litre—that figure is a few days old, so it might be more or less than that now, depending on the daily price rate. Using a typical fuel consumption rate for road haulage of 8.5 miles per gallon, that means that each kilometre travelled provides 22p to the Exchequer; given an average load of 10 tonnes, each tonne of freight transported into or out of the north-east region delivers £4.30 to the Exchequer in fuel taxes, compared with an average for goods moved between English regions of only £3.52. We are already starting to see the impact on an economically deprived region in terms of businesses developing there and on its prospects for employment, given its peripherality to the bulk of the English economy.
Many hauliers in the North East chamber of commerce membership have no choice but to pass a proportion of those costs on to their customers, the vast majority of whom tend to be based in the north-east region. The chamber of commerce has argued that decisions on fuel duty need to take greater account of the impact on businesses in each part of the UK, and that a more considered approach is needed than that of the automatic increases that have been fixed into Government policy for the upcoming period. The figures I have quoted exclude those for goods transported within regions, as the impact of fuel duty would be the same in each region for that type of journey.
If the amendment were accepted, I would ask that a detailed analysis be included of the introduction of a measure that would help to stabilise fuel duty. In fact, that is exactly what the Federation of Small Businesses has been calling for. We have had debates in the past about some sort of fuel duty stabiliser, and it remains to be seen whether that would be a workable option, but surely when carrying out such an analysis, the Government could look at measures that would stabilise fuel duty and the cost of fuel.
Andrew Gwynne
My hon. Friend is making a superb case stating the competitive disadvantage that the Government’s policies are placing on the road haulage industry in the north-east of England and in other English regions. Does he think that the reporting proposed in the amendment could help to determine Government policies for supporting economic growth in regions such as his?
Ian Mearns
I am trying to point out to Ministers that fuel duty imposed nationally has a differential impact across the different regions and indeed nations of the United Kingdom in terms of contacting the main hub of economic growth, the south-east of England. There has been a debate in my region about the dualling of the A1 north of Newcastle upon Tyne, but the main driver of growth in the north-east economy is actually to the south and west of the region in terms of the contact with the main drivers of our economic future.
Mr Kevan Jones
Was not the Conservatives’ promise at the last election to dual the A1 another promise that they have reneged on?
Ian Mearns
What happened over a number of years—I am afraid that our Government were not immune from this—was that, rather than planning roads to encourage economic growth and development, we planned them to accommodate congestion. That was not always the best thing to do from an economic perspective. Down that road lies ruin, if you will pardon the pun.
The Federation of Small Businesses has asked for a fuel stabiliser. I am not saying that I necessarily agree with the federation, but stability in fuel prices is important. The Chief Secretary said of a fuel stabiliser:
“It’s a complicated idea and it’s difficult to see… how we achieve it, but it’s something that we are looking at very carefully to see if we can reduce the burden of fuel duty”.
I wonder whether the concept could be more straightforward. When oil prices increased, the stabiliser—or a stabilising impact effect—would allow the Government to reduce duty to a lower limit; when oil prices fell, the Government would be able to raise duty to a higher limit.
Critics cite the difficulty of knowing whether the fluctuations in the price of oil are temporary or likely to persist beyond the near term, saying that it would be difficult for a fuel duty stabiliser to set fuel duties effectively. To counter the volatility in the price of oil, a fuel duty stabiliser or a stabilising measure would need to be based on an official forecast of the future price of oil, and then adjusted regularly according to the actual oil prices. It will be difficult, given the volatility in how the international oil markets are working at the moment, but we need to try to find some measure to help our small and medium-sized enterprises through this difficult process at this difficult time; otherwise, we are in real danger of seeing fuel become a major blockage to economic growth, not only in particular regions, but across the whole nation.
Would this be bad for the public finances? The Chief Secretary said that we cannot “sacrifice income willy-nilly”. Critics argue that a stabiliser or a stabilising effect would be too expensive to implement during a time of austerity, but that criticism fails to take into account the wider implications of high fuel prices on the UK economy. If set correctly, the measure could be fiscally neutral for the public finances and help to provide much-needed economic stability for the UK economy. My main point in asking for some sort of analysis in a review is that the measure is needed so much more in the regions of England, particularly regions such as the north-east, but the south-west as well.
Mike Gapes
The amendment states that the Chancellor should
“publish, within 3 months… an assessment of the impact of taxation on fuel prices.”
I will address my remarks to the scope of such an assessment. It is important not to focus solely on the narrow issues surrounding VAT, although they are important, or on the global increase in fuel prices, which is one of the factors causing the revolutions in north Africa and elsewhere in the world as people suffer from rising food prices as a result of rising fuel prices.
There is something very specific about how we in this country choose to tax fuel. Compared with other European Union countries, we choose to have very high taxes on fuel. One consequence is the problems from which our road hauliers have suffered in comparison with some of their competitors in European countries that have road pricing.
It is interesting to note that in the 2010 general election, the Liberal Democrats proposed to move towards
“a rural fuel discount scheme which would allow a reduced rate of fuel duty to be paid in remote rural areas, as is allowed under EU law”,
as well as to prepare for a system of road pricing to be introduced “in a second parliament”. That was the Liberal Democrat position. The Conservatives, of course, had a completely different view, promising a “fair fuel stabiliser”, presumably designed to help people in the rural communities.
I represent an urban area. My constituents suffer high fuel prices in London and, unlike some people in rural areas, they do not have the advantage of having to pay only 11.14p duty on a litre of so-called red diesel, instead of 57.95p duty on a litre of low-sulphur diesel. We know that there is abuse of the red diesel system by certain people who, when driving on main roads, use diesel that should be used only for off-road activities. That opportunity is not open to my constituents. People living in Ilford and elsewhere in Greater London do not have access to red diesel that they can abuse in order to avoid paying tax. However, people who are represented by the Liberal Democrats, who are in favour of giving priority to remote rural areas but not to those of us who live in urban areas, or by Conservative Members who are happy not to enforce adequately the provisions against abuse of the red diesel system, are not concerned about that. I want the review to examine the abuse of the red diesel system. I believe that a lot of money that should be going to the Exchequer is not doing so and that there is discrimination against people who live in urban areas and have no access to red diesel for their motoring purposes.
Mr Kevan Jones
I take my hon. Friend’s point about the abuse of red diesel, but may I disabuse him of the fact that it is not available in urban areas? When I was chair of trading standards in Newcastle, the abuse of red diesel in urban areas was just as prevalent as it was in some rural areas. The fact is that certain criminal elements in London can gain access to red diesel fairly easily.
Mike Gapes
Obviously I am not as accomplished as my hon. Friend at making contact with the criminal elements in London. However, he has raised a serious matter: there are criminal elements who exploit differentials in duty. We have seen that in Northern Ireland, when terrorist organisations financed their activities by smuggling fuel across the border from the south to the north and vice versa, and we have seen it in other contexts.
If we are to have a policy on fuel taxation, we need to ensure that if we introduce measures that discriminate in favour of certain people in remote rural communities, we do not also create loopholes that will be used in a discriminatory way to undermine the sense of justice and fairness that our people want us to exercise. If we have high levels of fuel taxation in this country, which we do, and if that causes problems for our road haulage industry and discrimination between rural and urban areas, when the review is conducted—I hope that the Government will support the amendment, because it is vital that we look at these issues in—
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Hoyle. The amendment is very narrowly drawn. I have listened to the debate very carefully. Can you tell the Committee whether it is in order to discuss the matters that have been raised in it, ranging from the abolition of child benefit to the widening of the A1 and, now, the abuse of red diesel?
The Chairman
The Chair will decide that. I find it strange that the hon. Gentleman, who is a very senior Member of the House, is questioning the judgment of the Chair.
Mike Gapes
Red diesel is taxed at a lower level than other diesel. We are discussing the taxation of fuel and the need for a review of fuel taxation. Surely that is extremely pertinent to the terms of the amendment.
Mr Kevan Jones
The amendment states:
“The Chancellor shall publish, within 3 months of the passing of this Act, an assessment of the impact of taxation on fuel prices.”
I am sure that that includes diesel.
Mike Gapes
I entirely agree.
I believe that one of the difficulties in our economy, which affects our haulage industry, arises from our tax levels compared with levels in other European Union countries. We all know that if we drive across to France and fill a tank with diesel, or “gas oil” as they call it, it is possible to pay—depending on where we are—40%, 50% or 60% of the amount that we would pay in the United Kingdom. The haulage industry based on the other side of the channel therefore has a competitive advantage. The great lorries with Polish and other countries’ number plates that we see bringing goods into this country have a competitive advantage over those of our own haulage industry.
We need to look at these matters. I have to say that I think the Liberal Democrats were right. [Interruption.] Yes, occasionally they are right, and I think they were right when they said we need to look at road pricing. Unfortunately, the only person who has done anything serious about road pricing is, of course, the former Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, who introduced the congestion charge, which the Conservatives have now accepted even though they opposed it when it was first introduced.
The Chairman
Order. I think we are now beginning to stray a little from the subject under discussion. I am sure we will return to the topic of the fuel levy.
The Chairman
I do not think we really need to hear from the hon. Gentleman at this stage.
Mike Gapes
Thank you, Mr Hoyle. I will, as always, take your sagacious advice.
We need to look at the consequences of the way in which our economy is integrated globally, and the knock-on consequences of our competitive position in European markets. We need a review of fuel taxation, taking account of the position of the haulage industry and the discrepancies and disparities between different parts of the UK—I accept what my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) said about the north-east region. There are difficulties and we need to look at this issue in the round. It is eminently sensible to have a comprehensive review of fuel taxation policy, as called for in the amendment.
Everybody agrees that the current arrangement is not working well. There is a huge amount of public disquiet—all of us receive e-mails and letters on the subject, and the Federation of Small Businesses and others write to us. People are concerned about high fuel prices. There are things we can control, such as not increasing VAT on fuel, and there are things we cannot control, such as the impact of global events, but as long as we have an economy that is dependent on fossil fuels and oil, we will always be vulnerable to such things. The debate embraces wider issues than are dealt with in the terms of the amendment. I will not talk about those issues now Mr Hoyle, but it is important that we address them in a comprehensive review of fuel taxation policy. I therefore support the amendment.
Hugh Bayley
First, I want to compare the records on fuel taxation of the most recent Labour Government and the previous Conservative Government. My view is that the Labour Government were a great deal kinder to the motorist, and the following figures are provided by the current Government. Figures from the Department of Energy and Climate Change show that in 1990, when the Conservatives were in power, 59% of the price paid at the pump by the motorist and road haulier for unleaded petrol was taken by the Government in fuel taxation, and that it rose to 75% during the following seven years of Conservative rule; the Government therefore took more and more and more in taxation. When Labour was in power, however, the proportion of the price of unleaded petrol taken in fuel taxation fell to 65%. The figures for diesel are almost the same. Under the Conservatives, the tax take rose from 57% to 74%, whereas Labour brought it down to 64%.
I would like the Economic Secretary to the Treasury to answer one question in her response, on the following subject. Since the general election, Government policy—not just Conservative policy, but Conservative and Liberal Democrat policy—has been to increase the tax on fuel by about 3p a litre through the increase in VAT and to give back roughly a third of that, 1p a litre, through the reduction in duty. That policy will slightly help road hauliers, because the duty element will reduce. The VAT element increases, but hauliers are able to recover the VAT, or at least pass it on in the VAT they charge their customers. So the effect of the Government’s policy will be to clobber the private motorist to the tune of 2p a litre, because they will have to pay the VAT increase out of their own pockets, while providing slight relief to businesses, particularly hauliers. I say “slight” because the price of fuel has increased as a result of a number of factors, including the increase in the cost of oil and the fall in the value of the pound on the international exchanges. So motorists and hauliers have been clobbered by the market and by the Government, but hauliers are being hit slightly less hard than the private motorist because they are able to recover the VAT increase.
My question to the Economic Secretary is as follows: is it a deliberate act of Government policy to make life slightly easier for businesses but to clobber the private citizen, or is it just an accident that that has happened? This is one of the things that ought to be studied in the review that the Opposition amendment proposes. We should examine the relative merits of taxing fuel for vehicles through VAT as opposed to through fuel duty, and who the gainers and losers are.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) made a very powerful speech about the impact that the increase in VAT on fuel has had on family budgets, and the impact that inflation generally, and fuel inflation in particular, is having on families who are having their earnings squeezed. My Front-Bench colleagues’ amendment proposes that the review ought to consider that matter.
I would like such a review also to consider one other issue, because I do not believe that the Government have yet done so—although I would be delighted to be corrected if they have carried out the sort of analysis that I propose. The review should also examine the impact that taxation has on the demand for fuel. The previous Conservative Government, one and a half decades ago, introduced a fuel price escalator. I understand that their reason for doing so was environmental: they wanted to increase the price of fuel to depress the demand for it, and so reduce carbon emissions. That was the policy intention, and it is one of the reasons why Conservative policies cost taxpayers and consumers so much. I mentioned that the fuel tax take rose from 59% to 75% in their last seven years in office. I wonder whether the Minister can tell me whether that sharp increase in fuel taxation under the previous Conservative Government actually did depress the demand for fuel, because that is an important consideration. If we change the marginal rate of fuel taxation, economics suggest that there should be some elasticity in demand.
The Government say that they want to be the greenest ever, so they ought to consider the carbon emission consequences of changes to fuel duty and VAT on fuel. I hope that Treasury Ministers have taken advice on that from both the Department of Energy and Climate Change and the Department for Transport. They ought to have done, if they really are—[Interruption.] Does the Financial Secretary to the Treasury want to intervene? No, he is back in his seat. The Government ought to take advice before they make such proposals, so that they can assess the environmental impact of a fiscal measure. I am waiting to hear from a Minister, but it sounds as though that has not happened. It ought to if the Government are serious about the environmental consequences of their fiscal policy.
Hugh Bayley
The Economic Secretary wants to intervene, and I hope she can tell me that the analysis has been done and what its outcome is.
Justine Greening
I direct the hon. Gentleman to the tax note that we issued at the Budget. The answers to his questions are there; clearly he has not read it yet.
Hugh Bayley
I have not read it—[Interruption.] That is why I ask the question. If the hon. Lady would care to read it to the Committee, I would be pleased to listen.
Justine Greening
As the hon. Gentleman could not read the note himself in advance of the debate, I shall read it to him now:
“Removing the fuel duty escalator and cutting duty by 1ppl could result in a small increase in CO2 emissions in 2011-12 of 0.4Mt. However, emissions from road transport are forecast to be approximately 1 per cent lower than current levels by 2015-16 owing to underlying trends in”
fuel efficiency.
Hugh Bayley
Is it the Government’s policy, then, to use fiscal measures to reduce carbon emissions? Is that what brought about the carbon variation of 1.4 megatonnes—is that what the hon. Lady said? [Interruption.] It is 0.4 megatonnes; I am grateful to stand corrected. Has the reduction that she mentioned come about as a result of the Government’s proposed fiscal changes, or as a result of the economic downturn that is a result of their policies? There is an important difference. One would expect the fall in economic activity that we have seen as a result of the Budget—the Office for Budget Responsibility has revised down its forecast for growth as a result of the Government’s fiscal measures so far—to lead to a decline in carbon emissions from both road transport and other sources. I am not clear from what the hon. Lady has read out whether the reduction in carbon emissions will be a result of the fiscal measure or of a reduction in demand because of a contraction of the economy.
Barry Gardiner
If I interpreted the note correctly, it was a projection of what might happen as a result of the fiscal measures. It did not answer the question posed by my hon. Friend, which concerned an analysis of the results of the differing policies on carbon reduction hitherto. Does he agree that it is vital that we use green taxation only as a means of changing behaviour, and never solely as a revenue-raising measure? That is the question that he posed about past policy, and the Economic Secretary did not answer it.
Hugh Bayley
One would assume that a Government estimate has been made on the basis of some evidence. My hon. Friend shrugs his shoulders, but he was in government for a time and I certainly give a Government the benefit of the doubt. I believe that their civil servants would make the best estimate they could based on the evidence they had. Past responses to fiscal changes in the taxation of fuel would of course be a good indicator. Either the Minister can tell me that that is the basis on which the estimate has been made or she is not certain. If she is not certain she should be honest and say so, because we will then need the further analysis proposed in the amendment.
Jim Fitzpatrick
Technological advances such as hybrid vehicles, greener cars, electric vehicles and biofuels might lead to a reduction in emissions. Could they therefore be incorporated into the review? They will surely have an impact on taxation policy in future.
Hugh Bayley
The premise that my hon. Friend puts forward is absolutely right. The fact that more and more people are using low-emission vehicles will obviously have an impact. However, the purpose of the review proposed in the amendment is to consider what effects the fiscal changes will have. If the price of fuel is raised, some people will consume the same amount of fuel anyway because they are in business and they do not want to contract their business, but generally speaking it has a marginal effect. Private motorists will reduce the number of discretionary journeys they make by trying to take their cars to the shops less frequently and perhaps abandoning some leisure trips, and businesses will look for ways of economising as prices rise. I have heard the Minister’s comments and I am grateful to her for drawing my attention to the estimate that the Government have made, but it is a fairly bald statement and it does not answer my question about whether the measure is driven by the Government’s environmental concerns or their revenue-raising concerns, and we need a clear answer on that.
Hugh Bayley
I am going to sit down shortly to let my hon. Friend himself make a speech, but I shall certainly give way.
Hugh Bayley
That could very well be the case, and we will listen with great interest to what the Minister says in reply to the debate. All we are asking for is transparency. We want to know whether the Government are doing this for environmental or revenue-raising reasons, what the implications of the rise will be in environmental and revenue terms and what the impact will be on family budgets. I believe—indeed, I know—that all that information is not known, so I think that the Opposition’s amendment is a sound one.
Hugh Bayley
I keep trying to sit down, but my hon. Friends are preventing me from doing so.
Julie Hilling
My hon. Friend mentions the potential effects on the environment, tax-raising and families. A project has been brought to my attention because it can no longer afford the fuel for the vehicle it uses to take young people with mental disabilities out on trips, so those disabled young people are no longer getting the benefit they used to get from going out. Is he aware of similar issues in his constituency?
Hugh Bayley
Yes, I have had third sector organisations coming to me and saying how much more difficult life is getting because sources of funding are drying up.
It is clear from the interventions of my hon. Friends that the point I have raised has wider implications that ought to be studied by the Treasury and other Departments. I know what the process is for tabling amendments that ask for reviews and reports regarding legislation, and they are tabled not just to frustrate or irritate those on the Treasury Bench but to pose serious questions and seek serious answers. The Minister is waving her piece of paper again, and I promise I will read it properly, but what she read out to me did not answer my questions. It is an input—an estimate of one figure—but as we have heard, further study of the environmental and social impacts, the impact on family budget impacts and the overall economic impact is needed. I hope that as a result of that analysis the Government will produce better, more coherent cross-government proposals for the taxation of fuel in future.
Mr Kevan Jones
I support the amendment, which asks for a review. In the previous debate, we asked for a review of the implications of the bank levy. Similarly, the amendment calls for an assessment of the impact of taxation on fuel prices. It would be disingenuous to suggest that all Governments have perfect relationships when it comes to dealing with fuel duty. Clearly, the previous Government had problems with the cost of fuel and difficulties over taxation, but my hon. Friend the Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley) exploded one of the myths about the tax-take from fuel duty. Under the Conservative Government from 1990 to 1997 the tax-take on unleaded petrol rose by 16%, and under the Labour Government between 1997 and 2010 the tax-take fell from 75% to 65%.
The Government delayed the planned fuel duty rise, as Labour Governments did previously, as oil prices rose. Was that the right decision? Yes. At a time when many hard-working families are affected not only by higher inflation and increased taxation, but by wages being driven down and in some cases by family members facing unemployment, the Chancellor’s VAT increase puts about £1.30 on the cost of filling up a 50 litre tank of petrol.
Justine Greening
Will the hon. Gentleman tell the Committee whether he voted against the VAT increase? I suspect he did not.
Mr Jones
I am becoming concerned. The hon. Lady’s blood pressure does not seem stable tonight. She seems to be turning red and getting rather excited in tonight’s debate, which I am not sure is good for her health. Why did she argue for and push through an increase in VAT when she and her Prime Minister stood on a manifesto saying that they would not put VAT up? That is not being honest with the British people. What she has to explain to hard-working families in my constituency, North Durham, and in Putney is why she reneged on that promise.
There has been much talk in recent weeks about trust in politicians, and a lot of nonsense talked by the yes to AV campaign about whether MPs are hard working and trustworthy. When the Prime Minister and the hon. Lady say clearly that they will not increase VAT, and then that is the first thing she does, I understand why my constituents and hers are rather cynical about certain promises.
In the Budget the Chancellor used the gimmick of cutting the price of petrol by 1p. We will shortly debate how he will pay for it. It has had disastrous consequences for the economies of parts of Scotland and north-east England. He also increased VAT by 3p. He took it off with one hand and put in on with the other. Paying for that will have consequences for oil exploration in the North sea not only in the next year or so, but for a generation.
Andrew Gwynne
Does my hon. Friend recall that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, soon after the Budget, took a very dim view of those retailers who did not pass on the 1p decrease in fuel duty, and does he agree that the purpose of having such a review is to see whether the Government’s policy was ultimately a success or a failure?
Mr Jones
That is a very good suggestion. That is one of the issues that could be included in the review. Do the Government honestly think that they can con my constituents and others and that a 1p reduction in petrol duty will really be a vote clincher for them? Late last Friday I was in the excellent Sainsbury’s in Pity Me in Durham, and I noted that customers who spent £70 on their groceries could get 5p a litre off their fuel. It is a deal offered by other supermarkets—I do not want to favour Sainsbury’s. Are those on the Treasury Bench really convinced that constituents will be conned by the 1p reduction, when the cost is being increased by 3p, and if they can get 5p a litre off when they spend more on extra groceries?
My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) made a good point, which I accept, about the differences in fuel prices in different parts of the country. I think that there is a case for part of the review looking at why fuel is priced differently across the country. I hasten to add that at the weekend, when I was in Worksop in Bassetlaw visiting my father, I went to a Sainsbury’s—it happened to be the supermarket there—and noticed that diesel was £1.38, although down here in London and in parts of Durham it is £1.42. Clearly the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) are getting a good deal from the Sainsbury’s in Worksop. These are the issues that could be looked at in a review.
Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman is speaking movingly about his desire to see regional variations in taxation. He was a highly distinguished Minister in the previous Government, so will he tell us how many representations he made to the then Chancellor of the Exchequer when his voice stood a real chance of making a difference?
Mr Jones
If the hon. Gentleman had been listening, he would know that I was not arguing for regional variations in fuel taxation. I was saying that if we are to have variations in fuel prices, which we already have, and if the Government are to introduce a derogation and cheap fuel for certain island constituencies, clearly buying off the Liberal Democrats, the effects on the economy need to be assessed. I would also argue that if that is to happen for some of those rural communities, it must also happen for parts of County Durham where having access to a car is not a luxury, but a necessity for getting into work along the A1 corridor to Newcastle and other places. The fact that the Government are also reducing the public subsidy that local government can give to bus companies means that in the next few months parts of my constituency will have no bus services whatsoever on some days of the week.
Jim Shannon
The hon. Gentleman mentions the price of fuel. In Northern Ireland this week the price of diesel was £1.44.9 per litre, which is probably one of the highest in the United Kingdom. If there is to be regional help for the islands of Scotland, there must also be help in Northern Ireland for rural communities. Although he might have some concerns about that, would he not agree that it is only fair that that should happen?
Mr Jones
It is, but the islands derogation has been brought in as a sop to the Liberal Democrats. They have to get something out of this coalition, after all, and a few pence off fuel may well help them at the ballot box, but I doubt it in the long term. The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point that, if we are to assess the effect of the increase, regional variations will need to be considered.
Justine Greening
Clause 19 cuts fuel duty by 1p per litre. In fact, it has already happened—at 6 pm on Budget day. That was the first step in removing the Labour party’s planned fuel duty escalator and, instead, putting in place a fair fuel stabiliser, which will ease the burden on motorists.
The hon. Members for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) and for North Durham (Mr Jones) talked about the burden that the planned tax rises would have placed on their own region, and I can tell the hon. Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley) that, in fact, under the previous Government fuel duty rose by 55%, so it is simply wrong to focus totally on the previous Conservative Government. His Government increased the burden on motorists substantially.
The amendment calls for the Chancellor to publish an assessment of the impact of taxation on fuel prices within three months of the Act being passed, and it aims to determine the extent to which the cut in fuel duty has been passed on. By introducing such a measure, Opposition Members clearly intend to distract the public from their policy, which would have seen pump prices rise yet further as they introduced their planned escalator. In addition, the Opposition appear keen to suggest that the cut in fuel duty and the cancellation of their fuel duty escalator has not offset the effect of the VAT increase at the start of the year—a VAT increase that as a party they did not vote against.
I will go on to set out the Government’s assessment of the impact of this measure, as Members have requested, and to address the points raised in the debate, but perhaps I should start by explaining to the Committee why the Government took the action they did in the Budget to support motorists at this time of record pump prices. It is true that motoring is an essential part of everyday life for many households and businesses, as mentioned by the hon. Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern). The Government also recognise that the rising price of petrol has become an increasingly significant part of day-to-day spending, and we know that high oil prices are causing real difficulties in ensuring that motoring remains affordable. It is important that when shocks such as the steep rise in the oil price occur a responsible Government are able to listen and respond.
The previous Government would have introduced a fuel duty escalator, which involved seven fuel duty increases, three of which have been implemented, adding 3p to pump prices, and they had planned another above-inflation increase for the start of last month.
Andrew Gwynne
Is the Minister not even slightly embarrassed that her Government did not seek the powers to get a derogation from the European Commission? Her party has gone from being the party of “No, no, no” on Europe to the Putney shrug.
Justine Greening
The hon. Gentleman’s party does not even have a position on that because Labour Members abstained on it. If the policy in clause 19 is so bad, I expect them to vote against it, but I suspect that it will be another case of abstention making the heart grow fonder. I do not think that that will work with taxpayers, who remember exactly who was planning to bring in the fuel duty escalator had they remained in power.
This Government listened to hard-pressed motorists and businesses. We declined to increase the escalator and to introduce the 1p per litre fuel duty increase, which would collectively have added 6p to pump prices compared with what they are now. Instead, we responded with a £1.9 billion package to ease the burden on motorists at this time of record pump prices. We acted by cutting fuel duty by 1p per litre from 6 pm on Budget day. We cancelled the previous Government’s fuel duty escalator for the rest of the Parliament. We introduced a fair fuel stabiliser that will better share the burden of high oil prices between motorists and oil companies, and so fuel duty will increase by inflation only when oil prices are high.
Hugh Bayley
I read from a Library briefing:
“In its Budget in March 1993 the Conservative Government introduced a ‘road fuel escalator’—a commitment to increase duty rates on these fuels in real terms by a specified percentage each year”.
I accept that that was continued for a number of years by the Labour Government before being abandoned, but the Minister should not say that the public do not forget things and then gloss over the fact that it was a Conservative Government who brought in the fuel price escalator.
Justine Greening
I will tell the hon. Gentleman one thing we did not do, and that is hand over a huge fiscal deficit to the incoming Labour Government.
Justine Greening
No, we have heard enough from Labour Members.
We had to take decisions to support motorists in spite of the catastrophic state of public finances that Labour handed over. We have made sure that there are no fuel duty increases this year by deferring the inflation-only increase that was planned for April to 1 January 2012. This is real help for families and for businesses. As of 1 April, average pump prices are approximately 6p per litre lower than if we had continued with the previous Government’s escalator.
Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)
I have listened to this debate with great interest, because I was previously spokesman for the Freight Transport Association and I remember that one year into the Labour Government’s stewardship of the fuel duty escalator hauliers were on the streets of London on a go-slow programme because of the way that they approached taxation.
Justine Greening
My hon. Friend is right to refer to the response of hauliers to the previous Government’s policy.
The hon. Member for York Central called the action that the Government have taken for hauliers in the Budget “slight”. Actually, the average haulier will benefit by approximately £1,700 in 2010-11 as a result of those measures compared with what they would otherwise have faced. I also draw his attention to the remaining part of the package for motorists, which includes freezing vehicle excise duty on HGVs, providing further help to hauliers. The package is even broader than that, because for motorists who are required to use their own vehicle for work, the approved mileage allowance payments rate, which had not been increased by the previous Government since 2002, was increased from 40p to 45p per mile for the first 10,000 miles. An average AMAPs user claiming for 2,500 miles a year will benefit by £125 a year.
John McDonnell
In the Budget statement, the Government informed us that they were submitting a derogation request to the European Union for the rural fuel duty rebate pilot scheme. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury told us that permission would be received over the next few months. Will the Economic Secretary inform us of whether permission has been received? Given the representations that have been made today for an expansion to other regions, is that not something that should be considered as part of a review as a matter of urgency?
Justine Greening
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the derogation is to carry out a pilot to look at how we can support rural areas with a fuel duty discount. He is right to point out that we have submitted a formal request to the European Commission, and we wait to hear its response. I assure him that we got on with that derogation request, just as we said we would.
If I may, I will make progress on the issues that have been raised by hon. Members.
Hugh Bayley
The Economic Secretary has been extremely generous. A few minutes ago she referred to the deficit and the debt inherited by the incoming Government. Has she forgotten that during John Major’s premiership, the national debt almost doubled, and that during the first 10 years that Labour was in power, the Government reduced the national debt by 40% through good stewardship of the economy?
Justine Greening
The hon. Gentleman is obviously one of the Labour party’s structural deficit refuseniks. He simply refuses to accept that the deficit exists. I am sure that he would also refuse to accept that his party left unemployment 400,000 higher by the end of its term in office. We understand the problems that our economy faces and the Budget was all about tackling them.
I will turn to the substance of the amendment. For motorists to realise the benefits of the cut in fuel duty, retailers need to pass it on at the forecourt. If the cut in fuel duty had been fully passed on to average pump prices, including VAT, they would have been 1.2p per litre lower. The amendment seeks a published assessment of the degree to which the cut fed through to pump prices. As I said, we have already published a tax information and impact note that sets out our analysis of the impact of the cut. Following the Budget, the website petrolprices.com, which gives independent average daily prices and which the previous Government used to track prices, showed that average pump prices fell by approximately 0.8p per litre between 23 and 28 March. It can be clearly seen that the reduction in fuel duty largely fed through to prices at the pump. Therefore, prices are lower due to our actions and motorists are benefiting from the cut in duty. Let us not forget that average pump prices are approximately 6p per litre lower as a result of the cut in duty and our scrapping of the previous Government’s planned escalator, which they would have gone ahead with.
Julie Hilling
I am a little bit confused, because the Economic Secretary is talking about how wonderful the Government’s actions on fuel prices have been, but it seems to me that in the past 12 months, fuel has gone up by something like 25%. I do not see why the Government are saying how brilliant their actions have been when people are paying something like £1.40 a litre instead of £1.10 a litre. A penny off, 3p on, 40p on—it does not make sense to me.
Justine Greening
As the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) said back in May 2009,
“there are very few even socialist theorists who would suggest that commodity prices were somehow controllable”.—[Official Report, 13 May 2009; Vol. 492, c. 918.]
I do not think the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) can expect the Government to control commodity prices, but what we can do is take action to lessen the effects of swings in the oil price as they feed through to the pump. That is precisely what we are doing in clause 19 on fuel duty, and we will shortly debate the mechanism by which we can pay for that, which is the fair fuel stabiliser.
Of course, the Labour party has suggested that we should create a separate VAT rate for petrol. As has been pointed out even by Labour Members, that would have provided no help for hauliers, and I remind the Committee of why the Chancellor rejected the proposal. It would take six years, and it would not even be able to come into effect then, because the current EU VAT directive means that it is illegal. I do not think motorists should have to wait for six years, and the Government are not going to wait six years. We listened, and we responded as of 6 pm on Budget day.
Finally, I shall address the issue of VAT. I know that it is not strictly within the scope of the debate, Mr Hoyle, but it is important. The Opposition have been quick to point out that although the Government cut fuel duty by 1p in the Budget, pump prices have increased by about 3p following the VAT increase. They appear to be implying that motorists would be better off under their plans for an escalator and a VAT rate of 17.5%, although of course we know that the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) was planning to increase VAT himself. I suspect that they wish to use the amendment to prove their point.
It is simply not true that motorists would be better off under the previous Government’s tax plans, and let me be absolutely clear that even comparing the changes that we announced in the Budget with the previous Government’s fuel duty and 17.5% VAT plans, it is likely that on 1 April pump prices were 3p a litre lower than they would have been. Even after the two increases in fuel duty next year, average pump prices could still be about 1p a litre lower than they would have been under the previous Government’s plans. Cutting fuel duty and scrapping their escalator more than offsets the impact of the VAT increase, and I should not need to explain to Opposition Members that an increase in VAT was needed to cut the deficit that they left behind. They did not even have the political courage to vote against that measure, which they were so upset about—absolutely shameless.
In government, Labour Members ran our country’s public finances into the ground, and now, in opposition, they bring forward this feeble and unnecessary amendment. Dare they even push it to a vote? We will find out. I suspect that in the case of clause 19, it will be a case of another day, another abstention. The Government are providing motorists with a fair deal. Where the previous Government left tax rises, we have taken action, and I ask the House to reject the amendment.
Kerry McCarthy
We have had an interesting debate over the past couple of hours. It is notable that although we have had some significant and thoughtful contributions from my hon. Friends, not a single member of the Conservative party, apart from the Minister, or a single Liberal Democrat has felt the need to speak up for their constituents and talk about rising fuel prices. I am sure their constituents have lobbied them about it, but their silence in the Chamber today speaks volumes.
My hon. Friends the Members for Wirral South (Alison McGovern), for Gateshead (Ian Mearns), for Ilford South (Mike Gapes), for York Central (Hugh Bayley) and for North Durham (Mr Jones) have all highlighted the impact of the rise in fuel prices and of the Government’s decision—and it was the Government’s choice—to raise VAT from 17.5% to 20%. They described the impact on families’ living standards, on businesses in their constituencies, on the haulage industry and across the board.
The point is that the Minister’s view of the impact is short-sighted. She cited the impact of the measures in the Budget from 23 March to 28 March, which must be the smallest, most selective economic data ever cited in the Chamber. It would be interesting to know what happened after 28 March, to which she did not refer. She also tried to lead us down the garden path by talking once more about the fuel duty escalator, but she knows full well that the Opposition called for the Government to reconsider that in the Budget and welcomed the fact that they did so.
The debate is on the VAT increase, which the Government chose to introduce. We are asking simply that they publish an assessment, within three months of the Bill becoming law, of the impact of taxation on fuel prices. I do not think that that is too much to ask. I was surprised to hear the Minister say that we would not press the amendment to a Division, because I can inform you, Mr Hoyle, that we do indeed intend to do so. With that, I rest my case.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Hoyle. I should apologise to you and the Committee for an inadvertent breach of the conventions of the House, namely that having chaired the Committee earlier this evening, I inadvertently forgot the convention that I should not vote. I have, in fact, voted twice in Divisions since then. I apologise for that oversight.
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
The Committee is grateful for that explanation.
Clause 7
Increase in rate of supplementary charge
Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)
I beg to move amendment 13, page 2, line 36, leave out ‘for “20%” substitute “32%”’, and insert
‘after “a sum equal to 20% of its adjusted ring fence profits for that period”, insert “increasing by 1 per cent. for every $5 by which the reference hydrocarbon price exceeds $75 subject to a maximum rate of 32%”.’.
The Chairman
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: amendment 14, page 2, line 36, at end insert—
‘(1A) A reference price will be determined by an independent arbiter agreed jointly between the Government and Oil and Gas UK and will determine separate prices for oil, gas and condensates.’.
Amendment 15, page 2, line 36, at end insert—
‘(1B) The increased charge shall not apply to fields producing more than 90 per cent. gas. Where a field produces oil and gas the charge will be based on the price of oil equivalent taking into account the ratios of oil to gas produced.’.
Amendment 16, page 2, line 36, at end insert—
‘(1C) The supplementary charge may be abated or offset against the cost of investment to increase production.’.
Amendment 2, page 3, line 2, leave out ‘24 March 2011’ and insert ‘30 September 2011’.
Amendment 17, page 3, line 2, after ‘2011’, insert
‘and before 30 September 2012’.
Amendment 3, page 3, line 4, leave out ‘24 March 2011’ and insert ‘30 September 2011’.
Amendment 18, page 3, line 4, after ‘2011’, insert ‘or 30 September 2012’.
Amendment 4, page 3, line 8, leave out ‘24 March 2011’ and insert ‘30 September 2011’.
Amendment 19, page 3, line 8, after ‘2011’, insert ‘or 30 September 2012’.
Government amendments 11 and 12.
Amendment 5, page 3, line 27, leave out ‘24 March 2011’ and insert ‘30 September 2011’.
Amendment 20, page 3, line 28, after ‘2011’, insert ‘or 30 September 2012’.
Amendment 10, page 4, line 7, at end add—
‘(11) The Chancellor shall produce, before 30 September 2011, an assessment of the impact of taxation of ring fence profits on business investment and growth including an assessment of the long-term sustainability of oil and gas exploration in the North Sea.’.
Clause stand part.
Malcolm Bruce
The purpose of this group of amendments is to persuade the Government to engage with the oil and gas industry to ensure that no major new investment opportunities are lost. I will explain the purpose of the main amendments, and I very much hope that Ministers will respond in a constructive way, because these are intended to be constructive proposals.
The Government are on record as saying that they understand the need for stability in the fiscal regime, and the Chancellor has described this as a Budget for growth. It is worth saying, however, that in contrast to the cautious way in which the Government have applied new taxes to banks, which have squandered our resources to the extent that many of them had to be nationalised, it is quite harsh to apply a marginal rate of tax of 82% to our single biggest industry. It is an industry that invests in real infrastructure and real engineering, and it takes risks in regard to weather, geology, exchange rates and cost unpredictability, as well as taxation.
I accept that the current spot price of Brent crude, at $125 a barrel, allows for unforeseen profits, at least for some fields. However, that does not apply to gas fields or to fields with large quantities of associated gas and, as Ministers will know, that is not the price that many operators actually realise, as they often contract their production at an average well below the spot peak.
I say in passing that the link between the oil tax changes and the fair fuel stabiliser are tenuous. Many of the companies operating in the North sea have no retail division, and there is no direct connection between their returns and the pump price. Also, the Government are themselves the recipient of a windfall. According to the Library brief and, I think, the Red Book, North sea profits are running at between £1.5 billion and £1.9 billion per annum over the next four years. That is additional revenue that was not anticipated in the pre-Budget statement in November. The Government have also received a VAT windfall on pump prices, averaging about 6p a litre. However, my point is not that there is no case for additional contributions from North sea operators and field shareholders. I do not take issue with the Government about that. My point is that this should be done after proper consultation and taking due account of the complex character of the mature North sea industry.
I have monitored the industry for 40 years. Indeed, 40 years ago this September, I started work as research and information officer for the North East Scotland Development Authority. Towards the end of that year, 1971, BP announced the successful commercial test of a well, which turned out to be the discovery of the Forties field. However, it is interesting to note that, believing that it had reached the end of its useful life, BP sold the Forties field to Apache in 2003. Since its acquisition of the field, Apache has greatly enhanced recovery from Forties and sees long-term potential for its development. It is worth noting that Apache has been one of the most vigorous critics of the Government’s policies, and that it questions whether its investment will be fully committed or realised.
Andrew Gwynne
I accept the right hon. Gentleman’s points about the North sea, but will he acknowledge that it is not only the North sea that is affected by these measures? For example, gas is a major industry in the north-west of England, and only this week, we have heard of the decision to cease operations in Morecambe bay and the Irish sea. Does he agree that that would be catastrophic for the economy of the north-west of England?
Malcolm Bruce
That is a very fair intervention. Perhaps I am using the term “North sea” in a slightly generic fashion. The term “UK continental shelf” is a bit long-winded, but that is what I really mean. Perhaps the House will take that as read for these purposes.
The hon. Gentleman is right: Centrica, the operator in Morecambe bay and other gas fields, has indeed indicated that it might not be able to resume production in the current regime and with the current prices. That makes the point, which I hope Ministers will acknowledge, that it is important for the industry and the Government to come together and negotiate, in order to ensure that we do not lose investment and production that might otherwise be lost altogether.
Mr Kevan Jones
One of the arguments put forward by the Treasury is that the 82% tax rate to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred applies only to mature fields. Does he agree, however, that those mature fields still need investment if they are to continue to produce oil?
Malcolm Bruce
That was precisely the point of my illustration about Apache and the Forties field. It wants to invest, and I believe it will continue to invest, but it is actively reviewing the extent to which it will invest in the light of these tax changes, which clearly make the investment less attractive.
Malcolm Bruce
Before I do, I want to point out that today I received the Oil and Gas UK index of confidence in the industry, which is to be published tomorrow. It is not surprising to note that the index reveals a very sharp fall in confidence within the industry in the first quarter since the Budget. For example, exploration and production companies’ confidence has fallen from an index level of 71 in the fourth quarter of 2010 to 46 in the first quarter of 2011. Even the confidence of supply chain companies has fallen, albeit less so, from 61 to 54, and when asked why the fall was less sharp, they said it was because their business was now much more international and they expected to pick up business elsewhere that they would otherwise have lost in the North sea. That gives a clear indication that the industry is facing a loss of confidence as a result of these changes.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Is the right hon. Gentleman happy with what his Government are doing in the North sea?
Malcolm Bruce
The fact that I am moving the amendment makes fairly clear what I think and what I am trying to do. What I am saying to the Government—[Interruption.] I accept that the Government have introduced a Budget that has made these changes. What I am trying to do is to get Ministers to understand that the industry is complex and that Government decisions might lead it to a review of investment, which could lose production, jobs and export opportunities. It is possible to retrieve the situation, however, if we have an active process of negotiation. Previous Governments have made the same mistake and realised the need to engage with the industry.
Mr Robinson
The right hon. Gentleman makes a fair point about the lack of consultation and involvement with the industry in this heavy change, which has been introduced on the hoof. The Economic Secretary, who is replying to the debate, having worked for three years as a senior executive in Centrica—a firm the right hon. Gentleman cited as having lost confidence—should have known better and realised the importance of consulting the industry beforehand.
Malcolm Bruce
At this stage, I am not here to attribute responsibility for the decision. My concern is—[Interruption.] With great respect, Members should acknowledge that, speaking as someone who represents a major North sea oil and gas constituency, I know my own industry and my own constituency. I also know the need for the Government to engage with the industry and I hope to persuade them that they can retrieve the situation to a degree by so doing.
Let me refer to a table that will appear in the UK Oil and Gas publication tomorrow. It shows something of which Labour Members should be fully aware—the correlation with the past. Interestingly enough, in 2009, North sea oil prices peaked at $145, yet within 12 months they were down to $35. At that peak level of production, investment had fallen £3 billion a year as a direct result of negative tax changes in 2006. The time lag, Ministers should be aware, is two to three years, after which investment falls away; it is then several years beyond that when we see job losses, lost investment and lost opportunities.
Mr Weir
The hon. Gentleman makes a good case, but he will know that it is not just the immediate impact that is important. With these mature fields, we need to make sure that the infrastructure remains in place, particularly if we are serious about carbon capture and storage, for example, which relies on much of the infrastructure from depleted fields in order to work in the North sea.
Malcolm Bruce
That is a perfectly valid and fair point, and it is clear that Ministers across all Departments understand it. What I am anxious for Ministers to appreciate is that the complexity of the industry in its mature phase, the number of different players and their variable requirements all require active negotiation. Across-the-board changes in taxes without that negotiation will lead to a loss of investment and lost projects.
Malcolm Bruce
Let me make some progress.
With an oil price of $125, people will often say, “Most projects in the North sea are viable.” Well, yes they are, but the industry has to compete for other projects around the world where the price is also $125 yet where the tax regime is more attractive and the risks lower. That must be taken into account in negotiation, because it is the basis on which investors in the mid-west of the United States, or in other parts of the world, will decide whether to back projects in the United Kingdom continental shelf or elsewhere.
Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
The right hon. Gentleman has rightly drawn attention to the loss of confidence in the oil and gas sector that has resulted from the Government’s policies. How does he think that it can be restored? Trust is what has been lost, and no matter what negotiations may achieve, what will be hardest will be restoring that trust in the industry when it comes to future investments.
Malcolm Bruce
That is precisely why my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith) and I tabled the amendments. We want Ministers to begin in the process of building that trust.
The Government have made their case for this change and have defended it robustly on a number of occasions, but that is not the response that we need tonight. They have made their decision and I do not expect them to reverse it, because the Budget depends on it. What I expect them to do is engage with those in the industry, to explain the position to them, and to negotiate in detail on allowances and other flexible ways of ensuring that oil and gas that would otherwise be lost continue to be produced.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
I understand that the right hon. Gentleman seeks flexibility on the part of Ministers and is trying to persuade them of the value of his case. If the Government give him a negative response, will he still vote with them at the end of the debate?
Malcolm Bruce
I think the answer is that I want to hear what the Minister has to say.
Malcolm Bruce
Hang on a minute. We have had a series of debates tonight, and have heard a number of lengthy speeches, not all of which have contributed much to the argument. We are now engaged in a very material debate about the most important industry that we have, and in a serious attempt to persuade the Government to engage, piece by piece, with the industry and rebuild the trust which, as was rightly pointed out by the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford), has been damaged and needs to be repaired The industry was very pleased that the Economic Secretary engaged with it soon after her appointment and went offshore. It is important for her not to lose that good will, and to demonstrate that she has that degree of understanding. I am sure that she will do so, because I think that she has learned a great deal from her experience.
Malcolm Bruce
I want to make a bit more progress.
The Government have made their case, and have defended it. I am simply asking them to consider the real and legitimate concerns of the industry, to look at the independent assessments, and to accept that there is a danger of losing as much as £20 billion of investment and between 1 billion and 2 billion barrels of production over the next 10 years or so. That is a Forties field that we would simply discard. It would be a huge loss, and it would be very significant in the context of the British economy. If that investment is lost—or, indeed, secured—future jobs, export opportunities, imports and future tax revenues will be affected. They all hang on the restoration of that trust, and on the industry’s being persuaded to invest in the marginal projects that might be put at risk in the absence of negotiation.
Malcolm Wicks (Croydon North) (Lab)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Malcolm Wicks
The right hon. Gentleman is making a very thoughtful speech. Does he agree that there is a geopolitical and a national security implication? With global demand for energy increasing by a third or more over the next two decades, at the very time when the United Kingdom is becoming more dependent on imports, is it not important from a national security point of view for us to look after and nurture the North sea, and for that to have an impact on our fiscal treatment of North sea gas and oil?
Malcolm Bruce
It certainly is. The United Kingdom continental shelf has the potential to supply up to 70% of our requirements for quite a few years ahead. It is a more secure source, geographically and practically, than other parts of the world where the politics are uncertain. Given a high oil price, the Government, the industry and the economy can all benefit if we get the balance right, and can all lose if we get the balance wrong. It seems to me that negotiation is the way forward.
Let me explain how the amendments address some of the industry’s specific concerns. On amendment 13, the Government stated in the Budget that they will reduce the supplementary charge back to 20% on a “staged and affordable basis”. That is a welcome approach, but it would be more welcome if the charge had also been raised on a staged and affordable basis, instead of having a sudden 22% step increase. The amendment therefore proposes a graduated levy, increasing by 1% for every $5 the oil price rises above the Government’s arbitrary set trigger price of $75, up to a maximum of 32%. I stress that these amendments express the proposals of myself and my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith) as to how this could be done in a staged manner; they are not the amendments of the industry, although it is aware of them.
Amendment 14 sets up the basis for calculating the reference price. The Government seek to choose the spot price, but as I have said, few producers actually receive anything close to that. Indeed, it is not clear what calculations of what price the Treasury has made in determining its revenue projections. The amendment therefore proposes that there should be an independent mechanism for calculating a reference price, based on what producers actually receive. That would give predictability to the process and ensure that the tax base would adjust more smoothly when prices are volatile. I do not expect the Government to accept this proposal, but I hope they will accept that it is a constructive contribution to how an escalator could work both up and down, and in ways that would give the industry a lot more predictability than the Budget proposals as they stand.
Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)
I am very interested in what the right hon. Gentleman has to say, but would not what he is proposing have the opposite effect to what he has suggested, in that it will make things less predictable? The oil and gas price is already volatile, and to add in this extra unpredictability would make that 10 times worse.
Malcolm Bruce
No. I have listened carefully to the case Ministers have made, and it is important to acknowledge that Ministers are looking at a very high spot price and saying, “This is in excess of what the industry planned for, and there is a case that it should make a contribution to the economy.” I do not find that a totally unacceptable proposition, but I am concerned about it being introduced in a sudden bite from 20% to 32% and with no consultation or warning. What I am proposing is not an ideal; this is, perhaps, not where I would start from, but given where we are, it would be greatly preferable if it were to change in easily managed stages up and down, as that would enable the industry to predict where it would be and what level of taxes it would face. The alternative, which would not be very acceptable to the Treasury to pursue, is that it would go up on the basis of the $75 reference price to 32%. Are the Government really going to be comfortable, if the price falls to $69.95, to take it all off? I suspect not, and the industry suspects not. Even if the escalator up is not very well received by the Government, it is important that they try to ensure that it comes down on a predictable basis, because I think many in the industry feel it might never come down.
Stewart Hosie
I take it the right hon. Gentleman is not unhappy that tax levels are sensitive to profit, and I think that is perfectly reasonable, but why does he think that Ministers fail to understand that investment decisions are sensitive to tax, and why does he think Ministers fail to understand, notwithstanding the spot price, that the cost of extraction varies depending on the depth of the water, where we are in the North sea and even the type of oil that is being brought up?
Malcolm Bruce
I think, hope and believe that Ministers do understand it. That is one reason why I believe that if they do engage constructively with the industry we will get some progress and reforms that will enable the confidence to be restored and investment to be brought back.
Amendment 15 acknowledges the fact that the gas price is well below the oil price and the Government’s own trigger price of $75; $55 to $60 seems to be the average sort of price. The industry should not be facing the charge at all. There are also a lot of fields that have associated gas—in some cases quite significant amounts—so this amendment simply suggests that that should be taken into account. One way to do that would be to tax the gas produced and the oil produced separately, and another would be to aggregate the two and take the average price; either way would be fairer. As has been said, Centrica is indicating that the UK does not look like a good prospect for it; the company is clear that it wants to diversify its investments elsewhere in the world, and that would be to our detriment.
Mr Robinson
A series of reasoned and reasonable amendments stand in the name of the right hon. Gentleman and that of the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith). Does he realise that the impression that would be left were he bought off tonight by some sweet sounding but meaningless words from this Tory-led coalition is that the Liberal party has a lot of responsibility but, sadly, absolutely no influence in the decisions being taken?
Malcolm Bruce
Time will tell—that is all I can say to the hon. Gentleman. My hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine and I together probably represent more oil and gas jobs than any other Member, except perhaps for the hon. Members for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg) and for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran). It is important to point out that our areas account for only about a quarter of the oil jobs in the UK, as many of the jobs are in London, the north-east and elsewhere—
Malcolm Bruce
Indeed, some are even in Stornoway. It is important that this is seen to be a national industry.
I have debated oil and gas in this House for 28 years. I have seen every Government make the same mistake and I am disappointed that the present Government have done so, but I have also seen every Government engage and reach an understanding because they have learnt the complexities of the industry. All I am asking is that this Government engage in the same constructive way and that we reach a position where we get the balance right. The amendments seek at least to provide a framework for the sort of conversations that should take place between the Government and the industry.
Mr Robinson
I do not wish to delay the House, but I must ask the right hon. Gentleman: when did the Labour Government of 1997-98, in which I had some responsibility for sounding out and consulting the industry, make any mistake such as has been made by this Government? We simply did not do so. We talked to the industry; I met John Browne and he explained the situation. Although we were prepared to do so, we did not even get into any formal consultation because he convinced us in the initial soundings that it would be the wrong move to make.
Malcolm Bruce
The evidence suggests that sudden step changes to taxes have been made by successive Governments and they have had the same effect: a drop in investment. [Interruption.] No, it has happened under Labour too—the party was in power for 13 years. The figures produced by Oil & Gas UK show that the last time this happened, capital investment dropped by £3 billion per annum over the subsequent three years, and that is a huge sum. Although negotiating field by field is a long drawn out and time-consuming process, too complicated for some investors, who will go elsewhere, that is preferable to simply standing one’s ground and waiting for the worst to happen.
I hope that the Government will acknowledge that some projects are bound to be delayed or cancelled because the rates of return after the tax changes make them simply unviable. If the companies can negotiate to demonstrate to the Government the level at which such projects would become viable, which requires both parties to show their hands, capital allowances or other mechanisms could be brought into play in ways that would benefit both the Government, because the investment, jobs and spin-off could be secured, and the companies, because they would be able to develop viable projects, which of course will subsequently pay taxes to the Government.
Malcolm Bruce
No, because I wish to make progress and reach the end of my remarks.
The final amendments in the group would delay implementation. The only purpose of that—this relates to the intervention from the hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson)—would be to use the time to negotiate and decide whether or not we could come up with a slightly more sophisticated mechanism to meet the needs of the industry.
The amendments, taken together or in part, set the framework for the sort of concerns that the industry has and how it would like to engage with the Government. The one comment that everybody I have spoken to in the industry has made to me in the past week or two is, “Whatever else you do, can you just persuade the Government that we need to talk to each other? If we do that, we have a fair chance of getting a settlement that will not prejudice too much investment.” Ministers will notice that the rhetoric has calmed down on the oil and gas industry’s side, because people there actually want to talk.
I hope that the Government will acknowledge that this is a real concern for a substantial industry. I hope that they will also acknowledge that if it can be demonstrated that there has been negotiation, although it will not completely wipe out the shock of a sudden increase, it will, I think, show that the Government are serious in understanding that this is our biggest industry, that it has huge potential and that it still has a big future in this country.
Kerry McCarthy
It is always a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce). He has made an eloquent case on behalf of his constituents, who are directly affected in more ways than most people by the Government’s proposal to increase the supplementary charge on North sea oil to 32%. Amendment 10 simply asks the Chancellor to produce, before the end of this September, an assessment of the impact of taxation of ring-fenced profits on business investment and growth, including an assessment of the long-term sustainability of oil and gas exploration in the North sea.
The amendment should not be at all controversial, although we saw in the debate on the last group of amendments that the Government were not happy to be asked merely to produce an assessment of the impact of that policy. That is surprising because, after all, the Government say that they want more consultation and more transparency in their tax policy making. They say that they will—I am quoting their tax policy making document—
“embed impact analysis in the policy development process”
and
“integrate impact analysis into the consultation process.”
Those are both the kind of sentences that one has to read several times before one can work out quite what they are on about, but my understanding is that the Government are trying to say that they want more transparency and consultation. We have had to table amendment 10 because, in reality, none of that has happened.
The Government are right to consider increasing taxation on sectors of the economy that are enjoying windfall profits. We did the same when we were in government. There is an urgent need to deal with the fiscal deficit that is recognised on both sides of the House, and it is right that we should ask for more from those who are able to pay, but this change has been rushed through without consultation, as the right hon. Member for Gordon said, surprising the industry, and inevitably it has fallen down at the first scrutiny.
If the Economic Secretary had consulted representatives of the industry, they might have told her that the stability and predictability of the North sea tax regime is important for investment. Oilfields are long-term investments that require long-term certainty and stability to attract investors. The industry believes that the value of investments in UK oil and gas has fallen by 24% as a result of the 2011 Budget. That will cause long-term damage to the industry’s trust in the Government for short-term political gain.
I agree with the Select Committee on the Treasury, which said:
“The decision to increase the supplementary oil and gas levy by 12% without warning, less than a year after the Government had undertaken to provide a ‘stable’ tax regime in the sector, may weaken the Government’s credibility in seeking to establish a stable tax regime in this and other areas.”
Andrew Gwynne
My hon. Friend is making an excellent point. Given the concern I raised earlier about people in the north-west of England who work in the industry, particularly in relation to Centrica’s decision about Morecombe bay, does she find it all the more surprising that the Economic Secretary once worked for Centrica?
Kerry McCarthy
My hon. Friend makes a valid point. I wonder what the current sales and marketing finance manager for Centrica thinks of the actions of the holder of that post from 2002 to 2005, and what experience the Economic Secretary had during her three years working for the company that has caused her to turn against it in such a fashion.
As I was saying, there is a real requirement, as the Treasury Committee has noted, for a stable tax regime in the sector. The Chartered Institute of Taxation has said that
“the last minute and precipitate change in Oil tax rates for an industry that is particularly dependent on long-term planning seems wrong”.
Does the Minister agree?
The threshold chosen by the Government may also be a problem for stability. The average oil price in 2008 was $100 a barrel, but in 2009 it was $60 a barrel and in 2010 it was $80 a barrel. If prices carry on fluctuating above and below the $75-a-barrel mark, as they have over the past three years, the uncertainty about the tax rate and whether companies will be caught by it could drive more investment away from the UK.
Had the Economic Secretary consulted the industry before the Budget, it might have reminded her that the supplementary charge applies to gas as well as oil. Gas prices are on the rise, but at less than 60p a therm they are still significantly below the Government’s $75 a barrel trigger price on an equivalent basis. In the UK, gas prices are less closely correlated with oil prices than in other jurisdictions, where there are often still contractual links between the two. Whereas oil prices are set by the global market, gas prices are more localised. Graham Parker of the Office for Budget Responsibility told the Treasury Committee quite recently that gas prices were “quite variable” so even if the Government think they have chosen the right level for oil, they might have set the balance wrongly for the gas sector. That could be disastrous given that gas accounts for 46% of the North sea industry’s production.
Mr Kevan Jones
Does my hon. Friend find it remarkable that such a decision should have been taken in such haste that the Treasury did not realise that that issue relating to the difference between oil and gas prices would arise?
Kerry McCarthy
Certainly, when I met Oil & Gas UK, it was very surprised and seemed to be of the view that the Treasury had forgotten that gas would be affected by the measures. The policy is very much back-of-a-fag-packet stuff. It seems that, in a knee-jerk reaction to the rise in public concern about petrol prices, the Government felt they had to act on that front, and so had to came up in haste with some sort of mechanism to raise revenue to fund the 1p cut in fuel duty. The effect on gas is an important issue, and the cost could end up being passed on to ordinary people in their gas bills, either because the increase itself is passed on to consumers or because UK gas production drops, meaning that we have to import more gas from abroad.
Had the Minister consulted the industry prior to announcing the measure in March, it might also have reminded her that when the previous Government increased North sea taxation, they introduced measures to promote investment alongside that change. When we introduced the supplementary charge in 2002, we also introduced a 100% first-year allowance for capital expenditure in the North sea. That not only provided a buffer for companies to make the transition to the new regime but encouraged investment in UK oil and gas fields. When, in 2005, we increased North sea taxation again, we allowed further flexibility on the capital allowance. To maintain the stability of the tax system, we also gave a commitment not to increase the tax again in that Parliament. I wonder whether the Minister can echo that commitment today.
It was right to increase taxation on oil and gas at a time of windfall profits, and now is also such a time, but we were conscious of the need to create stability for the industry and to maintain investment for the future. If this Government had thought their changes through, they could have taken a similar approach, but instead the effects of their hasty and ill thought out decision are already being felt. We have heard the reports about disinvestment in the industry. Centrica, as my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) has mentioned, has hinted that it might decide not to reopen its Morecambe Bay field, which produced 6% of the UK’s annual gas requirement. I wonder what the Minister’s former colleagues have to say about that. Statoil has suspended $10 billion-worth of investment in the Mariner and Bressay oilfields, which together hold reserves of 640 million barrels of oil. Research from Aberdeen university has gone further, suggesting that over the next three decades the Government’s tax change could slash oil and gas investment in the UK by £30 billion. Production could be reduced by up to a quarter, leaving the UK more reliant on imported oil and gas.
This debate is not just about the profits of oil and gas producers. The oil and gas industry directly and indirectly supports 440,000 jobs in the UK. There are reports that at least 40,000 of those jobs are at risk because of the Government’s action, at a time when 2.5 million are unemployed, including an increasing number of people who have been out of work for longer than a year. The Government have a responsibility to act with extreme caution before putting those jobs at risk.
Mr Kevan Jones
Does my hon. Friend agree that many people in the north-east who were previously made redundant from shipbuilding yards, for example, travel regularly throughout the UK and internationally to work in the oil and gas industry? Surely the Government’s proposals will affect those people, who have come to rely on home-based employment and travelling overseas, in some cases long distances, to support their families?
Kerry McCarthy
My hon. Friend makes an important point. The jobs being lost are in areas where there is little other employment. As he says, people in the area he represents have been affected by the decline in other traditional industries under the last Conservative Government. Now they are being hit by a double whammy with their jobs in the oil and gas sector being put at risk.
Dame Anne Begg
Does my hon. Friend agree that the best way to deal with the deficit is to grow the economy? The industry was growing and investing, but that growth and investment could be put at risk as a result of the measures.
Kerry McCarthy
Precisely. We come back to that time and again with this Government. They are looking at the very short term for quick revenue gain or political gain, not taking a longer-term approach. The point should not have to be made that if the Government want to encourage growth in the private sector, which they are always talking about, they need to encourage investment and have the right economic climate for that investment to take place. If the tax regime is not stable, that is put in jeopardy.
I accept that it may not be possible for the Government to consult widely on every tax policy. There is a balance to be struck between robust scrutiny and consultation and the Government’s freedom to act when necessary in the national interest, and consultation may flag up to certain companies that they ought to engage in tax avoidance measures, but in this case, the Government not only ditched their brand new tax policy framework, but went back on specific assurances to the oil industry.
The previous Government had formed a good working relationship with the industry, which may now be damaged. After a meeting in 2008 between the then Prime Minister and Chancellor and the oil and gas industry, the Government consulted with the industry to develop a package of new measures to revitalise investment in UK oil and gas reserves. Those were announced in the 2009 Budget and included the new field allowances and other incentives for companies to invest in the UK’s smaller and more difficult fields. Such close working together is vital to the stability of the tax system for North sea oil and gas. Unfortunately, it will become more difficult if the Government cannot restore trust with the industry.
Although it sounds hard to believe, as I said earlier, last year the Government created new golden rules for themselves to make tax policy more predictable, more stable, and more transparent. We can only conclude that the Government have ditched those rules altogether, just a year after taking office, because we cannot see how Treasury Ministers are
“committed to providing clarity and certainty on the future direction of tax policy.”
The industry body for the UK oil and gas industry agrees with us, saying that the measure has damaged the industry’s confidence and trust in the tax regime. I cannot see either how the Treasury still believes, as it said last year, without a hint of irony, that consultation is
“an integral feature of all policy making”,
which
“helps ensure that changes are well targeted and without unintended consequences, and that legislation is right first time.”
What happened to that statement of intent from the Government? Clause 7 is a perfect example of a policy for which there was no consultation. As a result, it is poorly targeted, has potentially serious unintended consequences for the industry, and is certainly not a policy that they got “right first time”, and all because the Government did not consult on their decision.
Mr Kevan Jones
The Economic Secretary said in her winding-up speech on the last group of amendments that the result of the Government’s policy on fuel duty has led across the board to a 0.8p reduction in the price of fuel at the pumps. Is that really a price worth paying for the effect it will have on the oil and gas industry?
Kerry McCarthy
The Economic Secretary said that it had led to a drop of 0.8p at the pumps between 23 March and 28 March, which seems very selective. It is clear now that petrol prices at the pumps have gone up and that the Government have gained very little from their approach.
In the run-up to the general election, both the current Chancellor and the current Prime Minister were clear that they would deliver on a fuel duty stabiliser. Voters were led to believe that the Government could and would act on that. However, in March, as we approached the Government’s second Budget, the Opposition pointed out that the fair fuel stabiliser was still nowhere to be seen. Even with fuel prices rising above £6 a gallon, due to the rising price of oil—the very situation that a stabiliser was meant to help with—the Government had still been unable or unwilling to act. That was because their original plans would never have worked.
The Conservative party had believed that rising oil prices led to higher tax revenues for the Government, which could then be shared with motorists. It turned out that, just like the proposals we see in the Bill, they had been poorly thought through. They were told that they were wrong not only by Labour Members, but by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which stated that
“the claim that the Treasury receives a windfall gain when oil prices rise that it can “share” with motorists is incorrect.”
They were told that they were wrong by the chair of the Office for Budget Responsibility, Robert Chote, who said it
“would be likely to make the public finances less stable rather than more stable.”
They were even told that they were wrong by the current Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, who said before the election that the fair fuel stabiliser would be
“unbelievably complicated and unpredictable.”
Justine Greening
The hon. Lady is providing a critique of our policy, but her party has just decided not to oppose our fuel duty reduction, which, compared with what they proposed for the public finances, represents a difference of approximately 6p per litre. How does she propose to pay for the change in fuel duty that she has just not voted against?
Kerry McCarthy
The Minister is trying to return to the topic we debated in the previous group, so perhaps she should have been a little quicker and thought up her intervention then. I am talking now about stability in fuel prices and the empty promises the Government made to the electorate in the run-up to the election that they would be able to do something to stabilise fuel prices at the petrol pumps.
Representatives of the oil and gas industry tell us that as recently as February the Government were giving assurances that they wanted to keep the North sea tax regime stable, as they had said in their previous Budget, but between February and April they very swiftly changed their mind. Perhaps the Minister can tell us why? What caused the Government to have such an urgent rethink on the fair fuel stabiliser? Many of us suspect that the increased scrutiny that the Opposition brought to bear on the Government’s policy might have prompted them belatedly into action—action they would have realised much sooner was needed if they had only done their homework and listened to what people were trying to tell them.
Inevitably, given the panicked way in which it was put together, the Government’s new version of the fair fuel stabiliser is equally as half-baked as the proposal put forward before the election. As a result, potentially tens of thousands of jobs, as well as billions of pounds worth of investment, are at risk, and the Government have broken their commitment to stable, consultative tax policy making.
Andrew Gwynne
My hon. Friend is making a superb case about the short-termism of the Government’s approach. Is she not absolutely right to point out that, in a short-term fix on gas and oil, this discredited Government are going to risk jobs, industry and investment in this country?
Kerry McCarthy
Again, that is a very good intervention by my hon. Friend. The industry needs stability and long-term investment, because we cannot dig an oil well or develop an oilfield overnight, yet the Government are creating uncertainty that will send investors off to other countries where the tax regime is more stable.
The Government have also completely damaged the trust between themselves and the industry, and that is why we have tabled our amendment. We simply call on the Government to do what they said they would do before making major tax changes: carry out a proper assessment of the impact, so that we can scrutinise it and have transparency. The Government were right to look towards North sea oil and gas to ensure that the burden of taxation was fairly spread, but without stability tens of thousands of jobs could be at risk. For the Opposition, that is not a price worth paying for short-term political gain.
Stewart Hosie
The right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) said in his opening remarks that the Government wanted the UK to be seen to be open for business. That is a very good objective, but the problem is that an 81% marginal rate of tax on anything, and the instability caused by a shock 60% increase, puts at risk their stated aim of promoting the UK in that way.
The right hon. Gentleman made the point about investment, and investment levels are unchanged generally, but there is now less focus on frontier developments than on investment in the mature North sea, and that is a huge concern. The 60% rise in the supplementary charge that was created, it is told, by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury—whom I see leaving the Chamber barely at the start of the debate—was the most damaging thing that the Government did in the Budget.
The Government will take £2 billion a year extra in tax from the sector, on top of the £4 billion windfall that they got last year, to which the right hon. Member for Gordon referred, and on top of the windfall that they will get this year—2011-12—over the 2010 forecast. All that runs counter to the Chancellor’s stated objectives of tax stability, delivering a growth agenda and production here in lieu of imports.
Let us remember that when that bombshell was announced, leading industry members reportedly met in a state of disbelief about the Government’s plans. There were immediate reports about the threat to some 40,000 jobs. Statoil immediately announced the suspension of the Mariner and, possibly, Bressay investments, and it was argued that a slowdown in North sea activity would increase the UK’s reliance on imported oil and gas, with the consequence of an even higher balance of payments deficit and the corresponding impact of a suppression of GDP growth.
On tax receipts, Alan Booth, the chief executive of EnCore Oil, rightly said:
“Undeveloped and undiscovered oil and gas pays no taxes,”
and it got worse, of course, because Valiant immediately announced that it was not going to invest in its £100 million project, saying that it was
“no longer viable because of the surprise Budget move.”
Chevron warned that there would be “unintended consequences”, and let us remember that Oil & Gas UK was very clear when it said that the measure had
“shaken investor confidence to the core.”
The right hon. Member for Gordon said at one stage that Ministers had robustly defended their position. I do not believe that they have. When these fears and concerns were put to the Chancellor, a Treasury spokeswoman said:
“Mr Osborne did not expect investment to be damaged.”
That is not a robust defence of a position; it is intransigence and a failure to understand the consequences of the actions that the Government had undertaken.
There are other consequences. Jim Hannon from Hannon Westwood, the drilling analysts, said that 30,000 people could lose their jobs if exploration activity dropped by merely 15%. The detailed work by Professor Alex Kemp—I will not go through it in detail but it is well worth everybody in the House reading it—has warned that up to 2 billion barrels of oil and the equivalent amount of gas could be left in the North sea, untaxed and unused. Derek Leith from Ernst and Young has warned of projects being delayed and cancelled, saying that the Statoil decision was
“only the tip of the iceberg…There are a lot of companies that will not pursue projects but will not go public about it.”
Mr Kevan Jones
Does the hon. Gentleman agree with the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon North (Malcolm Wicks) about the national security implications of this? At a time when other mature oilfields around the world have investment going in to extract the last bits of oil, leaving large reserves of untapped oil in mature fields is not only financially incompetent but dangerous in terms of national security.
Stewart Hosie
In terms of energy security it is very foolish indeed.
This is about not only the increase in the supplementary charge but restricting access to decommissioning tax relief, and that could accelerate the decommissioning of essential infrastructure. Had these ludicrous plans been in place in the past, the Forties field might not have been passed on to provide a decade or more of additional oil. Had the infrastructure which will now be decommissioned more quickly been decommissioned at that speed in the past, the new entrants, the new technology, the sideways drilling and the ability not to take 30%, 40% or 50% of a well would not exist. Once the wells are capped and the infrastructure is gone, it is gone for good.
As well as energy security, there is the question of the future of carbon capture and storage. The last Government failed to make a decision quickly enough on the Peterhead CCS scheme, which was going to use the decommissioned Miller plumbing to pump the carbon dioxide into holes in the ground. If we restrict access to decommissioning relief, we risk being unable to use that plumbing and infrastructure not only for oil extraction but for other purposes.
The hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) referred to investments in the UK continental shelf falling by 24% overnight at the time of the decision. The scale of the impact was also explained in the recent research by Professor Alex Kemp in which he revealed that the tax increase could reduce UK oil and gas investment by up to £30 billion and production by up to a quarter over the next three decades. For last week’s Second Reading debate, we had additional information from Centrica that provided a detailed assessment of the problem in relation to gas. It said that the annual cost to the UK economy could be up to £8 billion per annum by 2013, that the decision could influence investor sentiment in other sectors, and that up to £100 billion of energy investments and associated jobs could be put at risk. That would be catastrophic if even a fraction of it came true. The UK needs sustained and sustainable above-trend growth, and we will not get it if we undermine the main investing industry in the UK. That would be incredibly stupid.
As I said on Second Reading, we should listen to Oil & Gas UK, Statoil, Valiant, EnCore, Chevron, Hannon Westwood, Professor Kemp, Ernst and Young, and Centrica. Those warnings did not start the day after the Budget and then stop; they kept on coming. It is inconceivable that all those major players and analysts in the sector are wrong, and that the Chancellor and the Chief Secretary, uniquely, are right. That is almost impossible to believe. Of course the warnings have not stopped.
Andrew Gwynne
The hon. Gentleman has made a superb point about the Morecambe Bay gas field. Is it not crazy economics that that investment will be lost to north-west England, which has some of the most deprived communities in the United Kingdom? We need to nurture the investment in the Morecambe bay gas field, not drive it away and import gas from abroad.
Stewart Hosie
I could not agree more. This is not just about Scotland, but about the entire UK continental shelf and the 440,000 people who are employed throughout the UK, including in East Anglia, off the north-west coast and elsewhere.
As I said—this is important—the warnings did not end a day or two after the Budget; they kept on coming. The most comprehensive analysis of the problem is in the 2011 international annual energy survey, which will be launched at the offshore technology conference in Houston, Texas this weekend. It is conducted by Maxwell Drummond, the industry employment specialist, which covers 100 international directors from all energy sectors. It says:
“the Coalition Government’s ‘supplementary charge’ on oil and gas production, projected to add an extra £2 billion to Treasury coffers, significantly and immediately impacted on global perceptions of the already challenging North Sea environment.”
If the international energy markets are warning of significant and immediate impacts, if there is a threat to tens of thousands of jobs, and if there is a threat to tens of billions of pounds of investment, the decision is clearly wrong.
Dame Anne Begg
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that because the UK continental shelf is now a mature province, many of the decisions on investment in the province are no longer taken in Scotland or London, but in Houston, Calgary or elsewhere in the world, and that the international perception of the tax regime is therefore crucial when such decisions are being made?
Stewart Hosie
That is absolutely right. I said when I intervened on the right hon. Member for Gordon that of course taxation needs to be sensitive to profitability, but that Ministers also need to understand that investment decisions are sensitive to tax and other costs. Although the field is mature, some of it is unexplored. If the perception is that it is expensive and that there is tax instability—which has been said—we will lose the ability not only to continue work in some of the mature fields, but to explore as yet untapped reserves, albeit in a mature sector.
As I have said, this is the most damaging measure in the Budget for economic growth. Although I respect the attempts to amend it and the tabling of amendments for the Government to discuss, we think that it is so damaging that we hope Mr Hoyle will be able to call on hon. Members from across the Committee to resist clause 7 very vigorously indeed.
Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
I remind the Committee of my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests as a shareholder in Shell, and of my wider interests in the oil and gas industry.
The oil and gas in the North sea belongs to the nation, but unless we have a regime that attracts experts with the finance and knowledge we need, we will not benefit from it. One of the amendments before us would restrict the tax raid to a year, to ensure that the Government and industry can engage in constructive dialogue that will encourage investment. It is important to restore confidence in the tax regime. Following previous supplemental changes, Governments had to work very hard to restore confidence and bring back investment, with field allowances and other incentives. They engaged with the industry and provided assurances that once the tax change had been made at the beginning of a Parliament, it would not be revisited until the next election. There is scope for restoring confidence, but some hard work will have to be done.
The Government need to address some of the arguments that are being made, particularly the one advanced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) about what individual investors are getting for their investment. It has been put to me that people made a decision to invest last June, but now the price of oil is $125 a barrel. If they decided to invest and then hedged for this year at $88, they are not getting $125, because the hedge fund is getting the profit. I do not see a tax being brought in on hedge funds; instead, it is being imposed on the people on the ground doing the hard work, on the skilled labour and on the knowledge and risk-taking.
When we talk about windfalls, we have to be slightly careful in the case of an industry with a fluctuating commodity price. When the price goes up it makes more profit and when the price goes down it makes less, but Governments tend not to say, “We’re a bit concerned that the price has fallen, so we’re going to cut the tax.” If there is a one-way ratchet, that causes uncertainty and concern in the minds of investors.
Amendment 13 suggests that if there is a desire to have a profit-related tax that varies with the price of oil, there should be some predictability to it. The hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg) said that it would cause complication, but that complication could be factored into new financial modelling. If there were a variable rate of profits tax, any company making an investment decision could factor that in and know where they stood in the fiscal regime.
It has been put to us that other countries, such as Norway, have different fiscal regimes for investment. However, Norway has had a stable long-term fiscal regime with very little change, and it has also had the attraction of less mature, bigger finds with more upside for investors. It is important to understand the confidence element.
The Energy and Climate Change Committee has seen evidence on the wider future of our electricity and gas network. This country wants to attract £200 billion of investment in its energy infrastructure, but if investors are being asked to build a massive offshore wind farm that will bring in more profits if the price of carbon goes the way they are betting, they will look across and see what has happened to the oil industry. They will not want the Treasury to come along and say, “Electricity bills are rising, so we’re going to put a windfall tax on the offshore wind farm,” which would undermine that investment decision. There is a read-across from gas and oil to wider investment in energy and big infrastructure projects in this country.
This is not just a constituency matter for my right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon and myself, who have many constituents who work in the industry, have jobs related to it or are economically affected by it. As has been said, it also affects East Anglia, Morecambe bay and other areas. The supply chain permeates the whole of the UK economy.
Mr Kevan Jones
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on standing up for his constituents; he is doing the right thing. Does he not find it remarkable that there are no Conservative Members in the Chamber from Morecambe bay or other areas that rely on the oil and gas industry, to speak up for that industry tonight?
Sir Robert Smith
Those hon. Members may have chosen to speak in other ways; they can raise matters with Ministers directly or in correspondence. There are all sorts of ways of trying to influence Ministers. I am using probing amendments and this debate to try to do so. If I may say so, it is rather sad that the Committee has chosen to focus on such a major industry for the UK economy at 1.30 am, but—[Interruption.] Well, the House collectively chose that time.
I want to make two final points on the instability and uncertainty caused by such upheavals. Statoil is reviewing its investment. That does not mean that it will not go ahead at all or that some of the investment might be done differently, but in the reviewing time, Statoil’s supply chain will no longer have the ability to deliver. The supply chain does not have the cash flow to sit around waiting for Statoil’s review without affecting its employment, recruitment and subcontracting. The skills base that has built up has huge export potential and earns a lot of money for the country through exports to other oil and gas provinces, but the Government need to understand that that base needs a stable home environment to ensure that we anchor as much of those profits in the UK as possible.
Finally, I want to reinforce how crucial the mature fields are in unlocking future investment. Many of the investments being attracted today are much smaller than before, and they would not stand up if they did not tie back to one of the big platforms that still operate in the North sea. That is why I was somewhat concerned by some of the Treasury’s evidence to the Energy and Climate Change Committee. The Treasury said that petroleum revenue tax fields were now just cash-making fields, so they did not need any more investment—but the very age of those fields means that they do need investment. The Health and Safety Executive is very keen to keep a close eye on those fields: because of their age, the safety of their infrastructure is crucial. Moreover, investment could be vital in ensuring that that hub remains to unlock any smaller fields around the North sea.
Another uncertainty is introduced by clause 7 because of its relationship with the clause on decommissioning. In the Public Bill Committee the Government must address that new uncertainty, which builds on the uncertainty caused by clause 7.
I urge the Government to respond constructively and positively to the industry’s desire for an investment climate in which it can take all the risks on geology, weather, technology and the future of the commodity market, in the knowledge that a Government who see its long-term importance to the economy, and who therefore recognise the need to restore confidence in a stable fiscal regime, are behind it.
Helen Goodman
It is a great pleasure to take part in this debate and to follow the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith), who made such a reasonable, well informed speech.
One question that has remained unanswered tonight is why the Government chose such a complex route rather than a much simpler windfall tax. Everyone understands that when the Government are looking for sources of funds, they will look at particularly profitable industries. However, the structure they have chosen means that investment in, and the future of, the industry have been brought into question. A far simpler structure would have raised the money without risking future work in the North sea oil and gas sector.
The Red Book is peculiarly unclear. The supplementary charge was raised from 20% to 32%, but the Red Book states:
“As part of the fair fuel stabiliser, if in future years the oil price falls below a set trigger price on a sustained basis, the Government commits to reduce the Supplementary Charge back towards 20 per cent on a staged and affordable basis while prices remain low.”
However, the meaning of a “sustained basis” for a fall in prices and of a “staged and affordable basis” is not set out in the Bill.
Andrew Gwynne
It is excellent that my hon. Friend is bringing her Treasury expertise to this debate. She is adding greatly to the discussion. Does she agree that one of the motives for the Government’s tax raid on the oil and gas industry is that they view it as the goose that laid the golden egg?
Helen Goodman
I defer to my hon. Friend’s knowledge of poultry-keeping. However, I agree that that is the problem that we face with the Government at the moment. Their approach simply is not serious; it is trivial.
Mr Kevan Jones
Does my hon. Friend not think it incredible that the Treasury officials whom she worked alongside for many years did not work out that there was a difference between oil and gas prices? Does she also not think it remarkable that the Minister, who is a former employee of Centrica and British Gas, did not highlight that problem either?
Helen Goodman
That is absolutely right. It is extremely worrying for the gas industry that the tax is being linked to fluctuations in oil prices, yet gas prices might not only vary from oil prices, but possibly even be going in a different direction. This is an extraordinary approach to take to the taxation of one of our major industries. I hope to hear from Ministers about how they are forecasting oil prices over the period in the Red Book.
Returning to the issue of complexity and why the Government chose such a complex structure, we have to ask ourselves whether they completely misunderstood the debates in the previous Parliament on stabilisers. The Scottish National party and the Liberal Democrats proposed stabilisers on petrol taxation, but that seems to have been translated into the wholesale market. The situation now is not that stability is being provided for the consumer, which was the original objective of a stabiliser, but that the Government are able to hedge their tax revenues, which is a completely different proposition altogether. I hope that in responding to the debate the Minister will be able to explain what a sustainable oil price reduction means, because it is certainly not clear from what we have seen so far.
The other thing that was said at the time of the Budget was that the detail would be agreed with the industry and motoring organisations. I hope that we will get a report from the Minister on what discussions and agreements have been achieved. The initial press reports of her meetings with the industry were very alarming indeed. It sounded as though the industry was furious with what had happened and that Ministers did not have a proper answer to its serious concerns. It would be nice to know whether the negotiations have developed, although it seems from what we have read even today in the newspapers and on the web that they have so far not been fruitful. It would also seem that the Government, in their headlong rush, are not taking account of the fact that further evidence has yet to be given to the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change. Indeed, that evidence is to be given only tomorrow, yet the Government are ploughing ahead, mindless of what the industry is telling them.
It is particularly worrying that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) has pointed out, Centrica is saying that it might not open up the Morecambe Bay field after the annual shutdown to perform the usual maintenance functions this year. The Morecambe Bay field has been in operation for, I suppose, some 40 years—I think it was the first gas field from which we got natural gas in this country. The Minister is too young to remember the huge investments made in the 1960s to move from town gas to natural gas. Huge investments were made in this country to secure those gas supplies, and yet at the stroke of a pen, this Government are putting them at risk.
When the Government say that they want to rebalance the economy, we have to ask whether they even know that means. I understood rebalancing the economy to mean having fewer resources in financial services and more resources in other sectors.
Mr Kevan Jones
The argument made strongly by the Government is that the north-east economy should rebalance itself away from the public sector and towards the private sector. Does my hon. Friend share the alarm felt by the 380 firms that directly rely on the oil and gas industry in the region about the effect that the Government’s proposals will have on employment in those companies?
Helen Goodman
Of course. I am extremely concerned, as my hon. Friend and neighbour is, about the impact that the proposals will have on the economy of the north-east, and it will not be just a short-term impact, but a long-term impact. When we get investment in the oil and gas industry, we are getting investment in an industry at the cutting edge of technology. There have been many other positive spin-offs from the investments that the oil and gas sector has made.
Andrew Gwynne
That is precisely the point. The jobs in a lot of the support industries for the gas and oil industry are high-skill, high-tech and pretty well-paid jobs. Once we lose those skills in areas such as the north-west and north-east of England, they are gone for good. We need to support those industries, as well as the wider oil and gas industry.
Helen Goodman
That is absolutely right. The investment that the Labour Government tried to encourage in completely new energy industries such as the offshore wind industry used very similar skills. It is important to have a critical mass in these industries, and the achievement of that is now being put at risk.
It is not at all clear what the Government mean by rebalancing the economy. Our debate earlier this evening revealed a bizarre situation in which taxes on the financial sector are not tough enough, while taxes on the primary sector are over-strong. That is simply not going to take us down the route that we all want to go down.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
I do not know when the hon. Lady first came to the House, but she will recall that when the Labour Government first came to power, they imposed a windfall tax that punished the utility companies for their success. Now, this Government are trying to redress the balance, while recognising that oil prices are at an all-time high and that profits are being made simply through speculation. I am afraid that the hon. Lady is simply talking to the Westminster bubble. She should be thinking about how we can make a real difference to this country, rather than continuing to talk through the night.
Helen Goodman
I do not accept the hon. Lady’s analysis. Unnecessary complexity is one of the problems. A positive aspect of the amendments tabled by the right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) is the improvement in transparency, stability and predictability that would ensue from them. Those things would simply not ensue from the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s proposals.
Mr Anderson
Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the differences between what is happening now and what happened in 1997 is that, in 1997, the Labour party went to the country to ask for a mandate to put in place a windfall tax on the energy companies, and that the people of this country voted for that?
Helen Goodman
That is a powerful point. What happened then contrasts with the total lack of consultation by this Government.
Mr Graham Stuart
The hon. Lady mentioned the Government’s policy on rebalancing the economy. One of the most important elements is to reverse the disastrous loss of employment in manufacturing under the Labour Government. More than 1.5 million jobs were lost and—
The Chairman of Ways and Means
Order. We are straying from the amendments if we start talking about job losses. Let us try to keep as close as we can to the amendments before us.
Helen Goodman
I entirely accept your guidance, Mr Hoyle.
There is obviously a supply chain for the oil and gas sector. Equally obviously, if we damage the financial viability of the oil and gas companies, there will be an impact further down the supply chain. It is worrying that the industry is predicting that 40,000 jobs will be lost. Those are 40,000 jobs that we can ill afford to lose at this time. This is absolutely typical of the measures being taken by the Government that, across the board, are not being thought through. The statement by Statoil that it is going to put on hold a $10 billion investment is very worrying.
We also need to pay attention to the fact that the North sea province is different. It is not only a mature province—we all understand what that means—but it is in a very competitive arena. The Government do not appear to understand what being in a competitive arena means, or that those companies have a choice about where they invest.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
At the current price of $120 a barrel, the average return on capital employed for a medium-sized field is roughly 40%. Do Labour Members think it right that oil companies should be making 40%?
Helen Goodman
I do not have the precise figure at the back of my mind and I am not going to pluck out of the air a particular number, which would be to behave as foolishly as Ministers. It is obviously necessary to look at the returns across similar fields in other countries and to consult the industry on the implications. I am sure that that will not have satisfied the hon. Gentleman, but I am afraid that it is my view.
David Mowat
The point about petrol prices has often been raised. The hon. Lady has mentioned both Centrica and Statoil. Does she believe that these are major petrol suppliers in the UK?
Helen Goodman
No, Centrica is a gas company. Oil companies, even if they do not have petrol companies within them in the UK, are selling their oil and gas to people who are delivering in the retail market. I would have thought that the hon. Gentleman understood that if something is being done with prices and taxes in one part of the market, it could have an impact on the prices charged in another part of the market. That was my point.
Let me deal now with the drafting of the Bill. Will the Minister explain why the $75 a barrel limit is not specifically mentioned in clause 7? As already mentioned, if we are to make any sense of what is going on here, we will need to look at clauses 61 through to 64 and at schedule 15 alongside clause 7. I would like to pay tribute to Rob Marris, the former Member for Wolverhampton, South West who always enjoined us to read the explanatory notes. The explanatory notes on clause 61, which deals with decommissioning, are particularly interesting. Has the Treasury or Revenue done any analysis of the impact on the environment of the changes to the rate of decommissioning relief?
The amendments in the group are also interesting. As I have said, the amendments tabled by Liberal Democrat Members are clearly aimed at improving stability, predictability and transparency. The amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) are designed to review and understand the situation better. The most interesting amendment before us, however, is amendment 11, tabled by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is designed to insert the following provision into clause 7:
“But if the basis of apportionment in subsection (4)(b) would work unjustly or unreasonably in the company’s case, the company may elect for its profits to be apportioned on another basis that is just and reasonable and specified in the election.”
This is the most extraordinary amendment that I have seen in six years as a Member of Parliament. It seems that every company can say to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, “The impact on another company might be ABC, but in our case it would be XYZ.” Every company will be allowed to negotiate not simply the interpretation of the tax code, but its own tax code.
Mr Kevan Jones
Obviously many other taxpayers would like to be able to negotiate their tax codes with the Inland Revenue, but I am sure that the opportunity will not be open to them. Where will this leave the amount of revenue that the Government will supposedly raise to pay for the reduction in petrol duty?
Helen Goodman
My hon. Friend has hit the nail on the head. This opens a huge hole in front of the Minister’s revenue forecast. There is total uncertainty. Every company will be able to turn up and renegotiate its own tax regime, which is ludicrous. How far will this be taken? Will it be a general principle established in the tax code for the purposes of all corporation tax, or personal tax? I hope that the Minister has a very good explanation for what is going on.
Let me return to the underlying worry that has been exposed in tonight’s debate—that the Government simply have not taken account of the importance of energy security. Everyone knows that the energy market is under a number of different pressures. On the one hand, we must have a market that is environmentally sensitive and reduces our carbon footprint; on the other hand, we must have prices that are affordable for people in this country and that tackle fuel poverty. We must also have security of supply in a world that is particularly uncertain at this time. Wars are taking place in north Africa and there is conflict in the middle east, and it is at this moment that the Government have chosen to impose taxes that are so insensitive that they put the North sea oil and gas regime at risk.
Mr Anderson
I want to speak in support of amendment 10, but first I want to say something about the speech of the right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce). I am pleased that he has returned to the Chamber, because I was very interested in what he had to say. Most of those who have spoken in the debate on these amendments have done so on the basis of a degree of experience, which was not the case in earlier debates.
I wonder whether the case made by the right hon. Gentleman was made to the Government before the Budget. It appears from what was said by him and by the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) that the industry has been saying to the Government for some time, “If you are going to do this, please talk to us and please make sure that we get it right.” The industry does not want to end up with the circumstances described by my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman), in which anyone could do whatever they want whenever they want.
If that information was shared with the Chancellor before he made his statement on 23 March, it would seem from what was said by the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) about why he had ignored the voices of experienced people such as the right hon. Member for Gordon and those in the industry that the only thing that matches the Chancellor’s arrogance is his ignorance. Clearly he has decided to say, “I know better. I will impose this on the industry and on this country.”
This is not just about places such as Aberdeen and the north-west, because a huge amount of work is going on across the whole of Tyneside and the north-east of England. Some of the most advanced technical work anywhere in this country is being done there in very small factory units by very skilled men and women who are doing a great job. Shipyards have reinvented themselves after the closure programme of the 1980s and are building exploratory rigs and doing work that is vital to maintaining the skills base and developing the new work that we want to do. That will be development for not only the oil industry, but the offshore wind industry.
Mr Kevan Jones
A large number of individuals, many of whom live in my constituency and that of my hon. Friend, worked in former shipyards and heavy engineering firms in the north-east and now travel to Scotland and other areas where the UK oil and gas industry is based. They have very good jobs and choose still to live in the north-east. Does he agree that they are an important part of the wages that go into the north-east economy?
Mr Anderson
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. These people are rightly still among the most well-paid people in this country—why on earth should they not be, given the work they are involved in and the risks they take in their daily lives?
I worked underneath the North sea bed as a coal miner, so I have some experience of working in the energy industry. I am not the person to feel sorry for multinational oil companies, but if the Government take crass decisions that will have a massive impact on not only the industry, but the people who are dependent on it right across the board, we should surely question that. I have no problem with saying to the oil companies that we want them to play their part in trying to help us to get this country back on an even keel. Clearly, when companies such as Shell and BP are making huge profits, that discussion should take place, but it should happen before decisions as serious as this are imposed on people.
Some 450,000 people work in the industry. Our subsea industry is at the cutting edge and leading the world. People talk about what happened in the gulf of Mexico only a year ago, but the probability is that that will never happen in the North sea because of the experience we have gained over many decades of working up there. We lead the world and we should be proud of that, but this taxation surprise has made the industry question whether it should carry on being there, and clearly the oil industry can go to lots of other places in the world.
Helen Goodman
Does my hon. Friend agree that the expertise, research undertaken and skills gained on the UK continental shelf in the North sea enable British-based companies to explore successfully in the gulf of Mexico and the south China sea, and that from that exploration we also gain in income and investment from dividends overseas?
Mr Anderson
My hon. Friend is absolutely right about that. There is no doubt that as we move further forward and the exploration starts to take place west of the Shetland Islands, presenting new challenges, our people working in these industries will again lead the way. But that may not happen if companies are frightened away by a tax regime that is going to punish them. It will particularly punish them when it is a rabbit pulled out of a hat at the end of a Chancellor’s Budget, when it has not been discussed with the industry and when the industry has not been able to prepare, consider what it is doing and talk things through in a sensible and adult way in a genuine partnership to make these things work. As has been pointed out a number of times, Centrica has said this week that it is considering not reopening its gas fields off our north-west coast. That is a hugely important area of development and if Centrica decides not to reopen the fields they will just become sterile, like so many other of our energy reserves in this country over the past 30 years as a direct result of Government failures and inaction. It is clear that the Government have not thought this measure through, and the plea by the right hon. Member for Gordon is absolutely the right one, because they should think it through.
What will happen to the tax revenue in the meantime? That point was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones). Clearly, the decision made on 23 March was that a certain amount of money would be raised by this attack on the North sea. If that money is not raised, either because of the discussions that go on or because the decision has changed, what will the Chancellor come back with? How will he fill the hole that will be left, at least temporarily, if we do not go ahead with the measure?
Andrew Gwynne
Is that not exactly the difference between this measure and the example raised in an earlier intervention about the effect of the windfall tax on the privatised utilities? When Labour was in opposition before 1997, the party was in full discussions with the privatised utilities, which might not have been 100% happy with the proposal but were altogether certain that if the Labour party came to office, it would invest in our young people and get them back to work.
Mr Anderson
My hon. Friend is correct. That debate went on in the Labour party for a long time long before that election. It was quite clear to the industry and to the people of this country that if they voted Labour on 1 May 1997, we would impose a windfall tax. Discussions had been going on and the companies were able to absorb the idea and plan for that.
As ACCA says further:
“The sudden change in rate came as a shock to those involved in the North Sea oil industry”—
the change was not a shock in 1997, because companies had been able to prepare for it—
“and has been widely condemned as reducing the competitiveness of the UK as a target for investment”.
Mr Kevan Jones
Does my hon. Friend agree that the windfall tax, which was a one-off tax and quite clearly understood, was different from what we are facing today with this tax increase, which is a potentially fluctuating tax that gives uncertainty to oil and gas producers about the level of profit they will make long term on their investment in the North sea or anywhere else?
Mr Anderson
In the learned advice that she gave, my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland spelt out more clearly than anyone else in this debate that nobody seems to know what people will be paying in tax. Nobody knows whether they will be paying anything or whether they will be able to say, “I want to get away with this while you get away with that.” That is absolutely ludicrous; even if we accept that the tax should be imposed, people at least need to know what the Government are going for.
Hugh Bayley
I wonder whether my hon. Friend has read the article in today’s edition of The Guardian entitled “Accountants attack Osborne’s North Sea oil levy”, which reports on the ACCA report that my hon. Friend has just mentioned. It also reports the Chairman of the Treasury Committee as saying:
“Every time we do the unexpected, future business is deterred. It’s crucial we construct a tax system around the principles of certainty, simplicity, stability as well as fairness. The only beneficiaries of complex changes are tax accountants and tax lawyers—the very people who are complaining.”
Mr Anderson
I have read that report. Whatever hon. Members’ views, we respect the Chair of the Treasury Committee as someone who has done a good job for the people of this country and for the House, and when he says such things, hon. Members should listen. He is not someone who should be ignored: he speaks not from arrogance or ignorance but from a lot of knowledge. His Committee has undertaken a rapid investigation of an issue that is of massive importance to the country.
We have been here before with Tory Governments, who have a long history of making crass policy decisions on energy. In the 1930s, the Tories presided over a coal industry that was in internal decline and had massive problems, with more than 1,000 men a year being killed in the industry and with no investment whatever. Those men were using 19th-century technology—life was cheap and people were not allowed to live decent lives. The situation was pushed back after the war when the Labour Government came in and nationalised the coal industry.
Then there was another repeat in the 1980s. My hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland has mentioned the POP forecast and the pricing of oil according to how much it costs to get oil from coal. In the 1980s, we led the world in getting oil from coal, but that industry was destroyed at the whim of the then Government, who did that for political reasons. I can see that you are getting annoyed, Mr Hoyle, which is not like you, so I shall move on rapidly.
The truth is that Tory Governments, and not just in the past, have taken policy decisions that were to the detriment of the energy system in this country. That is being confirmed today, because this is not just about the oil industry. As has been discussed in debates on the solar power industry, Ministers have changed the rules halfway through a process. I have received a letter from a company in my constituency saying that it is involved in a number of projects in which clients want to build solar arrays that do not fulfil energy requirements. Funders and clients are now cautious because of the uncertainty caused by the policy change halfway through discussions. The industry had been told that it would be able to set targets at a certain level, but that level was later changed and the same thing is happening now. If the Government spring surprises on companies that are investing in energy policy, those companies will not know where they are and will look at other markets. As I have said before, I am not one to stick up for the oil companies, but I am one to stick up for this country and the workers of this country, and this part of the Bill, along with many others, is detrimental to the workers and the people of the country.
Mr Kevan Jones
Let me begin by congratulating the right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) and the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith) on their amendment. They clearly care about the industry, know a lot about it and are arguing vociferously on behalf of their constituents. From the body language of the Economic Secretary and the Financial Secretary, it looks as though the right hon. Member for Gordon and the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine are two unwelcome relatives at a wedding who had been forgotten about but turned up and started to argue about how this was not part of the wedding deal of the coalition.
The amendments raise serious concerns about the effect of the Budget not just on the constituencies of the right hon. Member for Gordon and the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, but on many others throughout the UK. I would have expected Members on the Government Benches who have oil and gas interests in their constituency—Morecambe bay has been mentioned, as well as the gas fields off the coast of East Anglia—to speak in the debate, yet we have not had a single contribution from the Conservative Benches. That should be noted by constituents who rely on the oil and gas industry for their livelihood. I am sure that if the former Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale were still a Member of the House, she would have been vociferous in making representations on behalf of her constituents. I hope she is watching the debate, even at this late hour.
The decision announced in the Budget to increase the supplementary charge on North sea oil was taken at the last minute, without any consultation with the industry. It led to the ludicrous situation mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman, with the profits of some of the mature fields being taxed at 80%. We are constantly told by the Conservative part of the coalition how important private sector growth is to the future of the UK economy.
There is no better example than the oil and gas industry. It is an economic engine for the UK economy. In 2010 alone it invested some £6 billion into the UK economy. It creates and supports more than 440,000 jobs, not just directly in the industry, but way down the supply chain and across the UK, as my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) noted. More importantly, it produced in 2010-11 some £8.8 billion in corporation tax for the Treasury, and it is estimated that for 2011-12, with the increase in the oil price, that revenue take will be about £13.4 billion. To treat such an important industry in the cavalier way that the Government have treated it is a disgrace.
I feel for the right hon. Member for Gordon. He said that the Government were listening, but I am not sure they are. I ask him to look at the report of the Treasury Committee’s meeting of 29 March, where the Treasury said:
“The 81% rate applies only to those mature fields where there is no further exploitation taking place that pay petroleum revenue tax. It is quite a high rate but, equally, there is not an issue with further investment needed there, and the oil is coming out of the ground. That is a pure”
profit.
Members asked whether that had been looked at in any detail. The Treasury went on to say that
“the Treasury does a lot of work on all the tax levers on an ongoing basis.”
It is clear from talking to the industry that investment in those mature fields is needed. For example, Total E&P UK says that production at mature fields will cease without further investment. The Alwyn area is a good example of why activity and investment need to continue. I accept that the industry requires a huge amount of start-up investment, but there is also an increasing need for investment over time. For example, Total has stated in its submission that investment is needed in the Alwyn field not only for ensuring that the field is secure and safe, but for living accommodation and other investments. It is absolute nonsense to suggest that such mature fields do not need continued investment, and to tax them at 81% or 82% is, frankly, ridiculous.
Ian Mearns
I must say that I am completely overcome by the power of my hon. Friend’s argument and wonder whether the right hon. Member for Gordon and his hon. Friends on the Liberal Democrat Benches really want to argue at this stage for a late codicil to the coalition agreement on the issue.
Mr Jones
I have known my hon. Friend for more than 25 years, and I think that this is the first time he has ever been overcome by something I have said—it might be the first time he has ever listened to anything I have said. The idea of leaving oil and gas in the ground and not extracting it is absolutely ludicrous. It makes no sense whatsoever with regard to the investment that has already been made, and it makes no economic sense with regard to security of supply in this country.
Helen Goodman
Does my hon. Friend agree that the problem is that the Government have no strategy? Just as they panicked when they realised that they had a fiscal hole to fill in the few days before the Budget, so they have now panicked with this ridiculous amendment 11.
Mr Jones
My hon. Friend has done the Committee a favour by drawing our attention to amendment 11, and that is something that we will all want to be argued for in the case of individual tax returns. The point of the matter is this: if the results are what has been suggested, how on earth will the Government be able to predict how much they will get from this tax?
Helen Goodman
Does my hon. Friend agree that it is also not clear, when a company negotiates its own tax regime, whether it will be a secret tax regime, or one that everyone will know? If it is secret, does that not open up the possibility of even more unfairness?
Mr Jones
It does, and that leads us to the point about how we would arbitrate in disputes between different companies. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg) mentioned the fact that decisions on investment in oil and gas are not taken in this country, but in Houston, Calgary and other parts of the globe, so the North sea and exploration in this country is competing for investment from around the world. If companies have to jump through hoops to negotiate their individual tax liabilities before trying to put an appraisal together, I am sure that decision makers will go for the easier options so that they know what the return on investment will be, rather than the uncertainty that this has left us with.
Dame Anne Begg
If it is necessary to bring in all sorts of complicated extra things to mitigate the effects of a tax and make it appear fairer, surely the original tax is fundamentally flawed and should never have been introduced in the first place.
Mr Kevan Jones
My hon. Friend makes a very good point, and her point about investment will increasingly be thought of when making such decisions.
That brings us to the question of what the decision-making process was when coming up with this tax. We have already had the ludicrous situation whereby even a Minister who practically used to work for a gas company did not recognise the difference between gas and oil prices. In my experience as a Minister dealing with Treasury officials, I always thought that they knew what they were talking about, so I am surprised that the Treasury allowed this measure to get through, because everyone knows the difference between the prices of the two.
We have already seen the effects of that this week, with the possibility that Centrica might turn off investment in Morecambe bay, and I am sure that the Minister will be off the company’s Christmas card list next year unless she does something radical to change what has been proposed. That decision will not only mothball a gas field that would have provided this country with gas for years to come, but write it off.
What will we do instead? We will import gas, which does not make sense economically or for energy security, especially when we look at where the large concentrations of gas are in the world—the former Soviet Union, parts of the middle east and, lo and behold, north Africa. Any idiot can work out that even Morecambe bay, and possibly Blackpool on a rowdy Saturday night, is more peaceful than north Africa or parts of the former Soviet Union, so it is important that we take seriously the comments of companies such as Centrica, which have invested over many years and not just in oil and gas fields but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon said, in new technologies.
It is a dirty industry, but it is also a leader in new technologies, such as robotics and drilling, and, owing to the difficulty of extracting oil and gas from parts of the North sea, we have been able to develop new techniques that are now used throughout the world. That is why many UK companies are leaders not only in this country, but throughout the world.
It has also become increasingly clear that the tax rate will have a real effect on the economy of north-east England. I accept that hon. Members who represent Scottish constituencies feel passionately about the issue, but the measure will have a dramatic effect in the north-east, too. The Conservative part of the coalition tells us that we in the north-east should grow the private sector, but the oil and gas industry is a very vibrant part of the private sector. Indeed, my hon. Friend has already mentioned the sub-sea sector, which supports 10,000 jobs and 380 firms in the north-east.
Andrew Gwynne
Like my hon. Friend, I feel passionately about those jobs in those cutting-edge industries. Is not the issue to protect jobs today and invest in future jobs in the north-east and the north-west, including in things such as apprenticeships?
Mr Kevan Jones
It is, and the north-east has been able to take advantage of the change in, for example, the River Tyne, which was heavily dependent on shipbuilding. Now we have facilities such as the Walker technology park, and the city council was far-sighted when it developed an offshore park for the North sea oil industry.
Helen Goodman
Does my hon. Friend agree, as the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) said, that there is also—
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. Can you face the Chair, please? Thank you.
Helen Goodman
There is also a problem with partnerships between the private sector and the universities.
Mr Jones
There is indeed. There are also new technologies. For example, the development of mine ploughs for mining the North sea bed for the laying of oil pipes was generated from a company that spun out of Newcastle university. Places such as the Walker technology park sustain offshore supply jobs for the North sea, and two companies based there—Duco and Wellstream—produce 90% of the world’s capacity of sub-sea umbilical housing and cords. Those are well-paid jobs. Such companies chose to invest in the north-east of England not only because of the skills base but because of the access to the North sea, and they are now able to export from there across the world.
George Rafferty, the chief executive of NOF Energy, says:
“For the last six to nine months we have been talking about a renaissance in oil and gas especially from the North Sea and the benefit to our members in the North-East as a result of investment being put in. With this announcement by the Government, which was made without consultation with the industry, there is a serious risk those investment decisions will be reversed.”
The industry body Oil & Gas UK said that the tax would not be passed on to consumers after the Chancellor warned that the sector faced a “direct squeeze” from it. That is exactly the uncertainty that exists today. It does not affect only the jobs in the north-east region itself. We have a large travelling population of individuals who travel to work via the North sea; they go across to Morecambe bay to work in the gas fields, and to East Anglia and other parts of the UK. That shows that this is an industry that affects numerous parts of the UK economy as well as the north-east. We have to ensure that any decisions that are taken on taxation do not have a huge detrimental effect.
It is necessary to know what is going to be done when making decisions about where future oil and gas investment will go. Unfortunately, some companies have already invested in oil or gas fields on the basis of what the tax regime was going to be pre-Budget, and they now face a completely different set of circumstances. For example, Total E&P UK has established Laggan-Tormore—the west of Shetland gas development—and that investment of $4 billion is now at risk. Questions will be asked by the individuals who made the decision to invest there. What will be the future of that type of investment?
This is clearly short-termism for reasons of political expediency to do with the Chancellor. In the previous debate, we even got an admission from the Minister that the downturn in the petrol price was 0.8%—and we all know what we can do with 0.8 of a penny in our household budgets! Is it really worth making that type of fix, which will jeopardise not only the investment that has gone in to date but will go in in future? This is a world-class industry of which we should be proud in the UK. It sustains many jobs. Over the years, it has been a leader not only in technology but in safety, as my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon mentioned.
I take no joy in what I am going to say now. I feel sorry for the right hon. Member for Gordon and the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, because I fear that they will feel the political consequences of this in the ballot box. I hope that with their expertise and continued lobbying, they can change the Government’s mind. A short-term decision based on the petrol price will have a huge economic impact on the UK, on the industry as a whole, and on the economy of the north-east. I urge the Government to think again. I do not know whether they will take silly decisions like this in the future, but please can they do a U-turn for the sake of the investment and jobs that they will put in jeopardy if they continue with this ludicrous policy?
Justine Greening
I will start by explaining why we introduced the increase in the supplementary charge rate. I will then cover the Opposition amendment and respond to the amendments tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) and my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith) before explaining the two technical Government amendments.
I appreciate the constructive amendments tabled by my right hon. and hon. Friends. They have put a lot more thought into finding a way through the challenges than the Opposition, and I appreciate the points that they raised. I reassure them that we are working closely with the industry. We have met with its representatives on a number of occasions: I have met with them, as has the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and officials recently went to Centrica’s office to look through its calculations on field allowances and profitability. We are discussing with Oil & Gas UK and individual companies precisely the issues that have been raised in this debate.
The broad rationale for the increase is that the Government are abolishing the fuel duty escalator and replacing it with the fair fuel stabiliser. Clause 7 forms the second part of the stabiliser, which ensures that when oil prices are high, as they are now, and oil and gas production is more profitable, the companies that benefit more from that are asked to pay more. The hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) fairly acknowledged that, and we are seeking to ensure that we do it in the right way, as he said we should.
Mr Anderson
Is not the point that this debate should have happened before the Chancellor made the decision, not afterwards?
Justine Greening
Realistically, it is not always possible to discuss rate changes with the industries concerned. It is not done as a matter of course, but the point about working with the industry to ensure that we understand the impact on more marginal investments is valid, and that is precisely what we are doing.
The clause increases the rate of the supplementary charge, which is a tax on the profits of oil and gas production, from 20% to 32% from 24 March this year. It is fair to point out that oil prices have increased from $77 a barrel at the time of the June 2010 Budget to about $125 a barrel today.
Dame Anne Begg
Plenty of other companies and industries deal in commodities whose prices go up, and plenty of other companies and industries make huge profits, but can the Economic Secretary name one other industry where the marginal rate of tax is 81%?
Justine Greening
The point is that we faced an increase in oil prices that had fed through pretty directly to pump prices. The increase in the cost of fuel was not just impacting on motorists, but having a huge impact on hauliers, on the cost of living and on businesses. We had to decide what was the right thing to do. I think that the right and fair thing to do was to share the burden by taking some of the additional profits that oil companies were making—profits at a level that far exceeded the projections of the companies when they made those investments. I will come on to answer the question from the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) about projected future investment. I will give a telling statistic that makes my point very well.
We expect pre-tax profits from oil and gas production in the UK to be £24 billion in the current tax year, which is a 50% increase in just two years, primarily as a result of the increased oil price. Oil companies can afford to pay a bit more, but hard-pressed motorists, hauliers and businesses deserve to pay less.
Dr Whiteford
I am pleased that the Economic Secretary recognises the impact that fuel prices have been having on business and hauliers, particularly those in more remote and rural areas. It is precisely those areas, including the parts of north-east Scotland represented by myself and by the right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) and the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith), who tabled the amendment, that face a hugely disproportionate impact on jobs and investment in the oil and gas sector.
Justine Greening
We have just agreed to clause 19 without either the Scottish National party or the Labour party having divided the House. If we are willing to accept the cost of the motoring package in clause 19, which I think we all accept was badly needed to support motorists, hauliers and businesses, we also have to accept some responsibility for putting in place a way of funding it. Clause 7 is how we will do that.
Justine Greening
Let me make a bit more progress, because Members have raised some real concerns and I want to ensure that I respond.
The Government recognise that we need to act as a good custodian of the UK’s natural mineral wealth; at the same time, we need to manage a tax regime that tailors the level of tax to the level of profits available from the UK continental shelf. The UK’s oil and gas reserves are a finite resource that belongs to the nation. Current oil production was not sanctioned on the basis of the high prices from which the industry benefits today. Those unexpectedly high prices and profits have arisen due to geopolitical events in the middle east and north Africa, as we have heard, and the Government must ensure that they secure a fair return for the UK taxpayer, particularly given the impact that oil prices are having on the broader economy outside the oil and gas exploration industry.
Stewart Hosie
But the tax rate was 50% before. Although clause 19 has been agreed to, it ought to have been paid for by the windfall that the Government got because of last year’s rise in the barrel price and by the windfall over and above the 2010 forecast that the Government are going to get this year. The problem is that what the Government have done with this tax grab, this 60% hike in the supplementary charge, is likely to damage investment and jobs and weaken economic recovery. It is not necessary to pay for clause 19—the money was already banked.
Justine Greening
I only wish that the hon. Gentleman’s assertion was correct. The previous Parliament debated this very issue, and I think it was responsible of the new Government to get the independent Office for Budget Responsibility to examine it, given that there had been conflicting assessments from different industry watchers and think-tanks. The OBR was very clear that although we received some extra revenue from the North sea as a result of higher prices, the impact of higher oil prices is far more wide-ranging. We can see that from the debate that we have had over a number of weeks, which continues tonight, about the impact of oil prices as they feed through to high pump prices.
I remind the hon. Gentleman of his own words about how to pay for the stabiliser back in 2009. He said:
“That amount could come from the VAT windfall or the North sea windfall, because it would be directly related to the price of oil.”—[Official Report, 13 May 2009; Vol. 492, c. 908.]
I know that he was talking about the direct revenues that he has just mentioned, but I think he was also making the broader point that a more general windfall accrues to the North sea industry when oil prices are high. I will talk briefly about some of the steps that we want to take to ensure that we mitigate the risks involved in the more marginal investments, so that we manage the concerns that have been raised, particularly by Liberal Democrat Members.
Amendment 10, which was proposed by the Labour party and spoken to by the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), would require the Chancellor to
“produce, before 30 September 2011, an assessment of the impact of taxation of ring fence profits on business investment and growth including an assessment of the long-term sustainability of oil and gas exploration in the North sea”.
As I have said, I want to reassure hon. Members that we are engaged closely with the industry. In fact, we explicitly mention in the Budget document that we want to work with the industry on field allowances, particularly those on marginal gas fields. Since coming to power, we have engaged closely with the industry, as my hon. Friends are aware. We have introduced a change to the ultra-high-pressure, high-temperature field allowance to ensure that the fiscal regime was appropriate to those prevailing circumstances.
The Government are keen to continue working with the industry. I have personally met representatives of Statoil and Centrica and spoken directly with them about their individual concerns. As I am sure the right hon. Member for Gordon is aware, Wood Mackenzie explicitly pointed to the Mariner and Bressay oil fields as two of the few fields where there would be an uneconomical impact, but for a variety of reasons, a number of technical challenges associated with those fields already made them a challenging investment. Nevertheless, we are working directly with Statoil to look at whether field allowances can be developed to help to unlock that investment.
The Government published our assessment of the impact of the measure in a tax information and impact note at the time of the Budget. Although we do not expect the measure to have a significant impact on investment or production in the forecast period, as I have said, we are working closely with the industry. First, we want to look at field allowances to see how we can unlock those more marginal fields, and secondly, we want to look at the longer-term issues that the industry is keen to address, including, for example, achieving more certainty on decommissioning.
Of course, the Government expect that the average post-tax profits per barrel will be higher over the next five years than it was over the past five years because of the higher oil price. In its analysis of the Budget, industry analyst Wood Mackenzie stated:
“At current high oil prices, few new projects will become uneconomic as a result of the change”,
However, we want to do what we can to ensure that investment is unlocked for those projects that remain at risk, so that they go ahead.
Helen Goodman
I am just a little concerned about how the Minister expressed herself in her most recent remarks. My understanding is that Ministers are not supposed to be privy to the individual tax bills faced by individual taxpayers. From what she is saying, it sounds as if a line has been stepped over when it perhaps should not have been.
Justine Greening
I do not think that that is true. It is perfectly normal and reasonable for the Treasury to work with industry and individual companies to look at the particular problems that they face. That is exactly what the previous Government did, and they introduced field allowances. There is no substance at all to the hon. Lady’s claim. In fact, she would have more justification for complaint if we were not taking such action.
As I have said, the recent very high sterling oil price has resulted in unexpectedly high profits for oil and gas companies, although at the same time it has resulted in financial pain for motorists and the wider economy. The Government therefore decided that it was appropriate to increase the rate of supplementary charge, to redress that imbalance. The fact that we have acted in that way does not mean that we do not appreciate the impact of taxation. However, we believe that investment in an exploration of the UK continental shelf will continue, driven by the record high oil price.
The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) asked about forecasting. Of course, there is a range of industry forecasts on future oil prices, but the Government use the OBR, which is entirely independent of us. The OBR forecasts an oil price for the forthcoming years of this Parliament in excess of $100 a barrel for every year of that period.
Mr Kevan Jones
In response to my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman), the Minister talked about negotiations she is having with individual oil companies. Is the revenue from fields going down? If so, from where is she providing compensation to fill the gap, or is she not giving any money away at all in these negotiations?
Justine Greening
The hon. Gentleman is missing the point that because of the high oil price there is continued investment in the North sea. Interestingly, Professor Kemp’s optimistic scenario is $90 a barrel and 70p per therm, but as I just said, the OBR has projected independently that oil prices over the next five years could be more than $100. That is $10 higher than the most optimistic scenario in Professor Kemp’s analysis.
Stewart Hosie
It is worth pointing out the Professor Kemp states that his projections are all in real terms, so they increase yearly with general inflation, and he gives three different scenarios for a barrel-of-oil price plus the therm price. In each instance—I will be very accurate here—field investment is reduced by £19.2 billion, by £19.5 billion or by £29.1 billion. Those are 30-year forecasts. For the sake of accuracy and completeness, therefore, I am sure that the Minister will agree that Professor Kemp and Linda Stephen’s work points to reduced investment over all the scenarios investigated.
Justine Greening
I just said that we accept that there will be a marginal impact; however, Wood Mackenzie has said that it does not expect that marginal impact to be high. If we look at Professor Kemp’s optimistic scenario of $90, which is less optimistic than what the OBR is projecting, and then use the hurdle rate most commonly used by most companies, we see that in the high-price scenario, total future projects are expected to fall from 1,099 to 1,074—a 2% reduction. We are saying that we recognise that. We therefore believe that the challenge is now for us to work with the industry to ensure that we can mitigate the risk to that 2% of investment.
I turn briefly to the amendments in the names of my right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon and my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine. Clearly, the amendments enabled them to make the points they wanted to make, but I think they would accept that the way in which their proposals would operate could mean that the supplementary charge rise started later and lasted potentially for a finite time. It might also have a staged approach. All those things would mean that the funding would not be in place to fund the package we want to introduce for motorists. I stress, however, that as my right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon said at the end of this comments, the way through this is to ensure that we work with the industry. I am pleased with the engagement we have now had with the industry. We have got through our first meeting with industry representatives after the Budget, which was a chance for them to set out their reaction to a tax rise we did not anticipate they would welcome.
The Government amendments demonstrate that we are engaged with the industry and are listening to its concerns. In fact, as a result of that engagement we wanted to address a technical issue that had arisen involving the basis proposed for the apportionment of profits. The Government’s amendments seek to address that. The legislation provides for how profits in an accounting period that straddles the date of the rate increase are to be split, so that the two tax rates can be applied to the appropriate amounts of profits. Government amendment 11 provides that a company may elect for a just and reasonable basis to be used where a time apportionment would give an unjust or unreasonable result.
We have proposed amendment 11 to take account of the concerns of industry. The amendment has an Exchequer cost of £40 million in 2011-12 only. We feel that the change is worth while because it ensures, for example, that the tax change does not affect the tax liability due in respect of transactions that were wholly completed before the Budget and that should not, therefore, have been affected by the rate change. The change follows an approach that the industry has suggested and shows that the Government are willing to change the detail of the delivery of their stated policy aims where evidence of unforeseen effects is presented by the industry. I urge hon. Members to accept the change.
This Government will carry on working with the industry on providing certainty in respect of decommissioning tax relief. Industry and officials will be engaging closely on that important piece of work in the coming months, and as previously mentioned, officials and Ministers are closely engaging with the industry in relation to the marginal field developments. We explicitly said that we would do that in the Budget, and we are now following up on that desire to ensure that investment continues to be unlocked. The concerns of gas producers are also being discussed with them. As I have mentioned, the Government are also seeking the views of oil companies and motoring groups about the level of the trigger price for the supplementary charge, and how the oil price for that purpose is to be determined. That informal consultation will be take place shortly, and we expect to be able to clarify the policy mechanism in the autumn.
We want to ensure that the Exchequer obtains a fair share of the value of our natural resource wealth while ensuring that the tax regime does not impede the development of the basin’s potential. The impacts of the measure are understood, so no further assessment is required, and I urge the Opposition not to press the amendment. It is impossible not to note that they voted—[Interruption.] I was actually referring to amendment 10, which I would have thought Labour Members would recognise, having proposed it—although I suppose that anyone who has voted for a tax cut on fuel duty, even though they have no way of paying for it because they have set out their stall against getting the funding mechanism from the oil companies, might be expected not to have followed the arguments that I have set out.
The amendments proposed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon are well intentioned. Let me reassure him once again that we are listening to representations from the industry and acting to ameliorate unforeseen effects. I therefore urge hon. Members to accept the Government amendments. The clause puts in place a fair fuel stabiliser, ensuring that we can pay for much needed help for motorists up and down the country. The clause also ensures that motorists and businesses suffer less pain from high prices at the petrol pump as a result of higher oil prices that would otherwise simply increase the profits of oil companies.
Malcolm Bruce
We have had a very useful debate, in which Members from all parts of the Committee have had the opportunity to express some pretty forceful points of view about the industry, as well as present facts from well informed sources. It is perhaps unfortunate that it is so late, but this still stands on the record as a valuable debate.
I thank the Minister for her constructive response and for the information about the Government’s detailed engagement. It would be fair to say that the immediate situation after the Budget was that the Government mounted a robust defence of their line against an industry that was shocked at what it heard. Perhaps the first meeting was less than constructive, although it is clear that things are now moving in the right direction. The amendments in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith) suggest how we might have liked the Government to proceed. We recognise that the die has been cast, although it is important that the Government should continue to engage with the industry to understand the issues of competitiveness, because the oil price is worldwide and the UK has to compete for that investment.
It is also important to take on board the fact that although the losses in production and investment might be considered marginal, we are talking about margins on huge sums of money and huge resources. In other words, we are talking about 1 billion to 2 billion barrels of oil-equivalent, which is worth £70 billion to £100 billion, and £20 billion-plus of potential lost investment. It is important that the engagement between the industry and the Government finds solutions that can deliver the revenue that the Government need and are entitled to accept, given the very high prices, as well as delivering to the country the investment in long-term production that it needs. I believe that this debate has made a substantial and useful contribution. I welcome the Minister’s response to it, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments made: 11, page 3, line 13, at end insert:
“(4A) But if the basis of apportionment in subsection (4)(b) would work unjustly or unreasonably in the company’s case, the company may elect for its profits to be apportioned on another basis that is just and reasonable and specified in the election.”
Amendment 12, page 3, line 16, leave out “subsection (4)” and insert “subsections (4) and (4A)”.
Amendment proposed: 10, page 4, line 7, at end add:
“ (11) The Chancellor shall produce, before 30 September 2011, an assessment of the impact of taxation of ring fence profits on business investment and growth including an assessment of the long-term sustainability of oil and gas exploration in the North Sea.”—(Kerry McCarthy.)
Question put, That the amendment be made.
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Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)
I am grateful for the opportunity to open this debate, but I would rather that the need for such a debate had not arisen. Last November, the Government published a document that was somewhat euphemistically entitled “Investing in Skills for Sustainable Growth”. Alongside various changes to the funding of further education and training in the UK, Ministers announced that from 1 August this year, many people who currently qualify for free courses in English for speakers of other languages will have to pay a significant amount towards their studies. From August, anyone who receives council tax benefit, housing benefit, income support, working tax credit or pension credit will be expected to contribute £2.91 per hour to the cost of their ESOL course. Anyone who is dependent on someone who receives what the Department for Work and Pensions has defined as “inactive benefits” will also be expected to pay.
The sum of £2.91 per hour may not sound like a lot of money, but it amounts to a minimum of £1,300 in tuition fees for a full-time course. Although as a point of principle I tend to agree that those who can pay should pay, the Government are living in cloud cuckoo land if they think that those currently on such courses, or those who most need them, will be able to pay—they will not. If someone’s husband has a job on the minimum wage and works full time but still earns less than £12,000 per year, will they really be able to pay £1,000 for an English language course? It will not happen.
I cannot help but think that the proposed changes to the way ESOL is funded are woefully short-sighted. Set alongside the Prime Minister’s repeated pronouncements on immigration and the need for everyone to speak the language of their new home, they are nothing short of hypocritical. I called this debate to give the Minister an opportunity to explain the rationale behind the changes and to question him on the impact they will have, to ask him to reconsider the crude distinction that has been made between those on active and inactive benefits, and to urge him, at the very least, to delay the changes by a year to allow those involved in the provision of ESOL to work with the Government to find a way forward.
Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the changes are another example of this Government’s attack on women? Figures from the Association of Colleges suggest that about 77% of those affected by the changes will be women who, in a two-parent household, will not be in receipt of the benefits required.
Heidi Alexander
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, and believe that the changes will have a hugely disproportionate effect on women and on members of black and ethnic minority communities across the country.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Does she agree that acquiring English language skills is important both for women’s access to the labour market, and because women mediate so many of the social services for families such as medical appointments, dealing with schools and so on?
Heidi Alexander
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point, and I will come on to those matters later in my contribution.
One reason I requested this debate is because a couple of weeks ago I had the privilege of meeting a group of ESOL students at the Granville Park education centre in my constituency. About 25 women sat in a classroom in Lewisham and asked me whether their individual circumstances mean that they will have to pay for their courses this September. They wanted to know why the Government are making changes to the funding of ESOL courses, how much money will be saved, and why the Government are taking away the one thing that offers them a lifeline out of poverty and the chance of a better life. They wanted to know whether the Government are pushing through the changes simply because they think that they can get away with it. The people affected by the changes, such as those women, are some of the least likely to be able to mount a campaign against them. Suffice it to say, I struggled to answer their questions.
The ESOL students I met in Lewisham come from all over the world. Some are eastern European, some African, some Asian and some from the middle east. Some have come to this country recently, and others have been here for many years. Most are not in receipt of active benefits and do not receive jobseeker’s allowance or employment support allowance. Many of those people have husbands in relatively low paid jobs, and many are in receipt of tax credits. Most have children in local schools and told me that they want to improve their English in order to get a job. Without exception, all of them told me that they want to speak better English so as to get on in life and be able to speak to their doctor, their neighbours and their children’s school teacher.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
My hon. Friend makes a powerful case and I wonder whether her experience has been similar to mine. Priory Park in my constituency has written to me to say that out of 42 students in the three classes run by that centre, only one receives benefits that will qualify them for such support in the future.
Heidi Alexander
That has certainly been my experience in Lewisham, and research by the Association of Colleges shows that a significant number of people who study ESOL courses are in receipt of inactive benefits.
I was talking about the sorts of people whom we find in English language classes across the country. Some people in the UK may ask how it is that those who cannot speak English are living in the United Kingdom. I have some sympathy with such a sentiment, although I wonder how many Brits living abroad make little effort to learn the local language. More seriously, the circumstances that led to some people—refugees in particular—coming to this country in the first place did not mean that they could say, “Hang on a minute, let me brush up on my English language skills.” Like it or not, there are people in this country, many of whom are British citizens, who have poor language skills.
When the Prime Minister tells us how vital it is that all migrants speak the language of their new home, I agree with him. When he says that practical things can make a big difference to community cohesion, I agree with him again. When he says that the presence in neighbourhoods of significant numbers of people who cannot speak the same language as those already living in the area can cause discomfort and disjointedness, I agree with him for a third time. Why on earth, therefore, are the Prime Minster’s colleagues, including the Minister present today, making it harder for people to learn English? It is completely nonsensical. Many other countries make language training compulsory for new arrivals, but we are in the unique position of running the risk of making it harder to learn English.
The situation that I described of the ESOL class in Lewisham is replicated in towns and cities up and down the country. A recent survey carried out by the Association of Colleges found that at least 90,000 ESOL students are on inactive benefits—that is 90,000 people who currently have access to free language tuition but will not if they start their course in September. According to the survey, 74% of those people are women. The AOC’s survey also found that over half of ESOL students receive inactive benefits—income support, working tax credits or housing benefit—but that only 14% receive the so-called active benefits of jobseeker’s allowance and employment and support allowance. Did the Minister realise that when he published his skills strategy last November, and did he realise that roughly two thirds of ESOL students on inactive benefits are women? I know that he has promised an equality impact assessment of the changes to ESOL funding, as distinct from the broader assessment carried out by the skills for sustainable growth strategy, but where is it? Will he update us on when that assessment will be published?
One of the most perverse things that strikes me about the changes to the way that ESOL is funded is that we could end up in a situation where money has been allocated to colleges and other providers for courses such as ESOL, but they will not be able to use it. There is a serious risk that Government funding will just sit in bank accounts during the coming academic year because the students who should be on those courses simply will not be able to pay their half of the course fees.
The Government seem to have acknowledged that that could be a problem in the most recent guidance note published by the Skills Funding Agency. Paragraph 53 of guidance note 7 states:
“The Agency recognises that new rules on learner eligibility and fee remission mean that many colleges and training organisations will have to make significant shifts in their provision in order to earn the allocation they have received for 2011/12. Given the scale of the challenge, the Agency will consider some transitional flexibility, to support colleges and training organisations making that change.”
Paragraph 54 states:
“At the end of the year, if the Agency is satisfied that a transition plan has been successfully implemented during 2011/12, the Agency will agree a manual adjustment to the final claim, to reduce the amount of funding that would otherwise be subject to clawback.”
Will the Minister explain whether that means that colleges that cannot spend their adult education budget on ESOL courses next year because the students simply will not be coming through their doors can keep the money that they would otherwise have spent?
Kate Green
Does my hon. Friend share the concern expressed to me by Trafford college that some colleges may be forced to close classes, so even for those people who can fund themselves to attend college classes, those classes may cease to exist?
Heidi Alexander
I agree that college governors throughout the country are making decisions at this time about how they will fund courses next year and whether to keep staff on or put them on notice of redundancy, so there is a real danger that the ability to provide the courses will simply dry up.
I spoke about the possibility of funds just sitting in bank accounts this year, unable to be used, as the students will not be coming through the door because they would not be able to pay their half of the course fees. I ask myself and the Minister whether that is a good use of public funds in such straitened economic times or whether it is an admission that the Department had not really understood the significance of the changes that it included when it published its strategy document last November. What happens in a year’s time, when money has not been spent and budgets are being set for the subsequent year? Does the Minister recognise that reduced spend by colleges and training providers will be a reflection not of demand for English language courses, but of students’ inability to pay?
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
There is an additional point. If courses cease because of cuts, students who have already made some progress but who cannot afford the fees in the coming year will not be able to study. I know from my appalling French that if people do not focus on the study of a new language and maintain their learning, they go backwards.
Heidi Alexander
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Later in my speech, I have some testimony from Lewisham college students who make precisely that point—that to improve and, indeed, to make the best progress possible, there needs to be continuity of learning.
I was talking about the latest guidance note from the Skills Funding Agency. While I am on that subject, I would like to ask the Minister a few more questions. In particular, why is the Department treating ESOL differently from other basic skills training and foundation learning? In paragraph 47 of the latest Skills Funding Agency note, the Government state that where a learner has an entitlement to a level 2 qualification, entry or level 1 aims will be fully funded to facilitate progression. However, the note also states that skills for life, including ESOL, are exempt from that provision. Will the Minister tell me why? Simply saying, as guidance note 7 does, that guidance note 6 deals with that is not an answer to my question.
It is remarkable that colleges and training providers may not be able to spend money that has been allocated to address basic skills because of the new co-financing requirements that the Government are introducing. That just does not make sense.
I will turn now to some of the wider arguments about why investment in ESOL courses is so important. In the last few days, the National Institute of Economic and Social Research has estimated that eastern European immigration has added £4.9 billon to the UK’s gross domestic product. Surely having more people able to speak the language and able to work is a good thing. The alternative is more dependence on the state and a greater outlay on benefits. That is before we start to think about the knock-on effects of poor language ability on the public purse.
In April, a series of freedom of information requests to London hospitals showed that in the three years from 2007 to 2010, £15 million was spent by seven different hospitals on interpreters and translators. We know that other parts of the public sector, whether councils or the Courts Service, have similarly high bills. Again, I find myself in the strange position of agreeing with a Minister. This time, it is the Minister for Immigration, who is quoted in connection with that story as saying:
“This illustrates very starkly why we need to do more to ensure that those people who are settled in this country can speak basic English.”
Will the Minister responsible for skills tell me what discussions he has had with the Minister for Immigration about the impact of his changes to ESOL? Has he told the Minister for Immigration that his Department’s changes will result in fewer people being able to speak basic English? It is not just the NHS that is affected.
Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)
The hon. Lady is making a very powerful case with which most of us would agree. Given the financial constraints that the Government find themselves under because of the general economic situation, will she accept that for every pound that she would like to be restored to the budget for ESOL, a pound should be taken away from translation along the lines that she has suggested?
Heidi Alexander
This issue is so important and has such knock-on effects that investment in English language courses is fundamental. That is why I have called for the debate today.
I was making some points about the wider societal importance of English language skills and had spoken about the NHS. Let us think now about schools and what happens to many children who grow up without English as their mother tongue. They go to primary schools and hundreds of teachers throughout the country do a sterling job in improving their language skills and helping them to integrate with their classmates. Then they go home, where perhaps they revert to speaking the language of their mother and father. Is it not much better for those children to be able to hear both their parents speaking English—perhaps not all the time, but at least so that they can see and hear that their parents can speak the language? Is it not much better for their parents to be able to understand the letter from school, to be able to speak to the teachers and to be able to contribute to the wider school community?
Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate and on the very powerful case that she has made. Like me, she represents an area in south-east London with a very large number of relatively poor migrants and she will know the number of occasions on which in our surgeries we are confronted with constituents who bring a child to translate for them. Her point is very powerful: in the interests of community cohesion, it must be right to encourage those families to speak English at home and not just to depend on their children to translate for them.
Heidi Alexander
My right hon. Friend is entirely right. Like him, I have had that experience at my surgeries.
We are coming to the nub of the debate now. Time and again, people at the top of the Government have talked tough on immigration and community cohesion. It is often a simplistic narrative that runs the danger of inflaming tensions rather than dealing with them. However, its simplicity, even if it is problematic in many ways, demonstrates how critical language skills are to building a shared sense of what it means to be British, what it means to live together in our towns and cities and how we might all be able to develop respect and tolerance for someone else’s way of life.
That is why, on 30 March, I stood up in the Chamber and asked the Prime Minister to reconsider the Government’s plans for ESOL, given his desire to see everyone speaking English. His response was illuminating. He said:
“We will have to take some difficult decisions over student numbers, and the priority should be to ensure that our universities can go on attracting the best and the brightest from around the world...That is why we have said that there should be a post-study work route. However, it does mean that we should be tough, particularly on those colleges that are not highly regarded. The fact is that over the last year, about 90,000 students were coming to colleges that did not have proper regard at all.”—[Official Report, 30 March 2011; Vol. 526, c. 342.]
I could not quite believe what I heard. I was so incensed as I sat there that I am surprised that I did not get a “Calm down, dear.”
I appreciate that answers to unasked questions are a common occurrence in politics, but I am afraid that the ignorance the Prime Minister’s reply demonstrated was in another league altogether. I was not talking about international students coming to the UK to learn English, about bogus colleges or about 90,000 students coming to study at institutions with no “proper regard”. I actually had to watch the clip of our exchange again on Democracy Live because I thought I must have been so vague and ambiguous that the Prime Minister could not possibly have understood me, but, no, I was relatively clear, and the Prime Minister did not know what I was talking about.
I was talking about the thousands of people who are settled in the UK and who need to be able to speak our language. I was talking about the mums in Lewisham, Sheffield and Liverpool who are desperate to learn English. There may not be many such mums in Witney, but if the Prime Minister is going to insist on giving us lectures on immigration and community cohesion, he should at least have a basic grasp of the things that can make a difference to communities such as the one I represent, and ESOL is one of those things.
Before I close, I want to refer to some of the stories of Lewisham college’s ESOL students, all of whom have contacted me about the proposed changes. Solange Makaba is originally from the Democratic Republic of the Congo. She has lived in the UK for 11 years. She says:
“I heard on the news yesterday that the government is going to change everything about studies in this country and I feel disappointed and depressed about it.”
Speaking of when she first came to this country, she says:
“I didn’t know where to start and I was unable to do anything because I had a problem with my English. It was too hard at the beginning, but when I found an ESOL class, it helped me a lot. Now I am able to do something because I improved my English.”
I have another e-mail, from Nanthankumary Sivakumar, and the Minister should already be familiar with these comments, as the e-mail was copied to both of us on 10 February. Nanthankumary says:
“I am writing to you because I feel worried about the proposed cuts to ESOL English classes. I came to England in 2005, when I couldn’t speak English and no one could help. First my life was hard. Then my husband found work. After that my children joined a school. It was very difficult for me because I couldn’t understand English at my children’s school and GP. I couldn’t answer important phone calls during that period. I thought about going back to France. Then I found an English class at Lewisham College. I couldn’t speak very well but I could manage everything. If I had to pay for my course I wouldn’t have improved so quickly”—
my hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) touched on that—
“and I wouldn’t be able to help my children. I am worried that after the cuts people will not be able to access education.”
There is also the story of Maryam Zeinolabedini, whose e-mail the Minister was also copied in on. Maryam says:
“I am writing to tell you that I am very worried about the proposed cuts to ESOL courses…When I came to England, I couldn’t speak English. I was living in Nottingham and one day I was very sick. I went to hospital and nobody could help me. I was very upset and for 4 hours I waited for an interpreter.”
After that, she decided to learn English. She says:
“I went to college and English classes. I was very happy because I got a part time job in a factory and in the afternoon I went to college and discussed with my classmates and teacher and improved my English. If I had to pay for my ESOL course I couldn’t come to college and would feel very unhappy and couldn’t communicate with people.”
Finally, there is Percy Tabaoda, who says:
“I am writing to you because I’m so worried about the proposed Government cuts to ESOL and the effects they’ll have on the most vulnerable people and their families. I come from Peru and I’ve been living in this country for more than 10 years. I’m a British citizen now but in my experience as an immigrant I’ll tell you that what helped me gain confidence and integrate into the society was courses like ESOL. I believe the government will be making a big mistake if they proceed with the cuts because it is not a solution to the problems the country is facing.”
I repeat: the changes are not a solution to the problems the country is facing—Percy hits the nail on the head. The danger, of course, is that the proposed changes to ESOL will not only not be a solution, but will make some of the problems in our country much worse. I implore Ministers to look again at their proposed change. They should look hard at the impact assessment when their civil servants put it in front of them. They should look again at the Prime Minister’s speeches and ask themselves whether they really think their changes will result in more people being able to speak basic English.
I have not come here to score political points, but because the Government did not do their homework before announcing the changes to ESOL last November. I want to give the last word to another constituent, Nick Linford, who is a further education funding consultant and the managing director of Learning and skills—events, consultancy and training, or Lsect. I must thank Nick for his help and advice over the bank holiday weekend when I was preparing this speech. He sums up the current situation better than I ever could when he says:
“The change to inactive benefit policy will impact on tens of thousands of English language learners, something it is clear the Government did not properly consider when they announced the policy…in November 2010. It is an unintended consequence and a rethink whilst embarrassing is more than worth it…as aside from the impact on communities and people’s lives, it would avoid tens of millions in funding going unspent.”
In referring to unintended consequences, Nick gives the Government the benefit of the doubt, and the debate gives the Government an opportunity to show that he is right to so.
Mr Roger Gale (in the Chair)
Order. I intend to call the Front-Bench spokesmen at about 10.35 am. At least 10 hon. Members have indicated that they wish to speak. If hon. Members do the maths, they will work out that they have about three minutes each. I have no power to curtail speeches, and I had, in fact, been allowing for the hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) to take rather longer. However, the length of time for which Members speak is not in my gift, but in the gift of others present.
Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)
Six or seven months before the election, I attended a session on phonics at a school where I was a governor. The session was also attended by 50 parents—48 women and two men. I am not suggesting that all those who attended were poor at English, but the parents of only 10% of the school’s children—there are nearly 700 children at the school and its nursery—were born in this country, so Members will appreciate the difficulties that the children have at times with the lack of English in their homes.
When Kate and Will looked at their contribution to reducing the deficit, I am sure that they carried out a cost-benefit analysis and decided that their wedding was worth while, because of the tourism and the extra hotel rooms that would be booked. In the case of ESOL provision, too, we really need to look rigorously at the cost-benefit analysis. We are not talking about people who are fluent in Urdu, Punjabi or Gujarati, or in the languages of Slovakia and Lithuania. Very often, although not so much in the case of eastern Europeans, we are talking about people who have never developed language skills, even in their mother tongue, and ESOL lessons are the first time that they learn not only English, but how to develop language skills.
One of the most powerful arguments used against the education maintenance allowance, which I did not agree with, was the infamous dead-weight argument that 90% of people would go to college or stay on even without EMA. However, surely that argument does not apply to the situation that we are discussing. Clearly, the majority of people who benefit from ESOL provision would not be able fully to fund it themselves. At Bradford college, 46% of ESOL students who are currently fully funded would not receive full funding, and they would not be able to access ESOL provision.
We have a social contract. I did not sign the pledge on free higher education, which has been a massive subsidy to the middle and upper classes for years, and I welcome the fact that those people will now have to contribute to the cost of their higher education. However, there is a social contract for those up to 18, and all parties agree that we should provide free education up to the statutory leaving age. We have reached that agreement, because we realise that young people need to develop basic knowledge and skills, including language skills, to make the best of themselves when they leave full-time education. Why do we not extend that free aspect? Why does that social contract not extend to those who do not have English, whatever their age? Whether people are 19 or 90, if they do not have the skills to enable them to be fully functioning members of society, why do we not extend that social contract to them, as we do to those under 18? The argument that is made is that that is a matter of equality. We do not fund, apart from those on active benefits, those who are over 19, so why should we provide ESOL for those over 19? However, the lesson that I have learned over many years in my community is that if unequal people are treated equally, inequality is reinforced. If one does not favour those who are over 19 but who lack the basic skills to be part of a functioning society, one is disadvantaging and reinforcing the inequality that already exists.
Bradford college, one of the largest providers of ESOL in the country, has considered the impact on the local community. Those on low incomes are likely to remain on low incomes, as they will lose out on the opportunity to develop their language skills and to improve their employment prospects.
Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, with this approach, the Government are creating an environment of social alienation, which can be so damaging to multicultural communities such as mine?
Mr Ward
That approach is damaging to my community, as well. I believe that that is a fundamental consideration that needs to be taken on board. Bradford college has also said:
“The college currently makes an excellent contribution to Bradford’s widening participation, social mobility and social cohesion agendas. The ESOL team is a significant force in meeting these agendas.”
Coming from Bradford, I know the cost of not having social cohesion, which is a cost that we cannot afford. We need to do all that we can, which includes fully funding ESOL provision for all those who require it. In answer to the question whether, pound for pound, provision should be for translators or for ESOL, it should be both—maybe we could fund that from the royal family.
Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) on securing this important debate. I will do my best to be brief to allow other colleagues to contribute.
I wish to refer to two aspects of the impact of Government policies on my constituency. The first has been expressed in correspondence from Michael Farley, principal of Tower Hamlets college, who tells me that at the college there are 2,000 adult students on ESOL training, only 20% of whom are on active benefits. He also expects a 24% cut in ESOL funding generally. He asked me to raise three specific points with the Minister. My hon. Friend has already referred to two such points, and maybe to all three.
The first point concerns when the Minister will publish the specific equality impact assessment on the ESOL changes, which will be appreciated as soon as possible. Secondly, there has been a request to delay any changes by at least a year to allow a working group to be convened by the Association of Colleges, the Refugee Council, the University and College Union and others to try to plot a consensus and way forward. Thirdly, there has been a request to consider a sliding scale of fees depending on circumstances, which would replace the current models with colleges having flexibility to decide how they support the provision. Tower Hamlets college is a huge educational institution in my constituency, and it provides education to people from the next-door constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali). Michael Farley’s advice has been taken by both of us, and we are keen to hear the Minister’s response.
The second aspect of the impact was clear from a visit that I made to the Bromley by Bow centre in my constituency, one of the premier social entrepreneurial centres in the UK, where I met 100 ESOL students, 95 of whom were women and 85 of whom were not on active benefits and therefore will not be entitled to future support. Seeking work is obviously an important criterion, but many of those people are not looking for work and are therefore not entitled to benefits. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East has said, the ability to communicate with their children and teachers in English is very important, and the ability to present adequately to doctors—to describe signs and symptoms and be able to understand the advice and medication—is critical.
It is most important that people integrate into UK society, which is a fundamental ambition of all political parties. With these policies, we are preventing that from taking place. Those critical aspects of life are not addressed by the coalition’s proposals. The ESOL students at the Bromley by Bow centre asked me to raise those points with the Minister and to seek his response to them. I am pleased to have the chance to do that, and I thank my hon. Friend for providing the opportunity. I look forward to the Minister’s response to those important points, which I will send to my constituents.
Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) on securing this important debate. She spoke in a heartfelt way, although some hyperbolic concerns have been expressed by some of her colleagues.
I want to offer my input as a Government Member with an inner-London seat. I share the concerns that have been expressed about the unintended consequences at the margins of some of the proposals, and I will be listening to the Minister with interest. Westminster Kingsway college in my constituency does a tremendous job not only for my constituents but for other central London authorities.
As the Minister shadowed his role in opposition for some years, he fully understands elements of the skills gap. He is passionate about what he is trying to achieve in what has been the Cinderella area of further education for many years. We will see some tremendous advantages from some of the deep-seated work that he has done in the area. He recognises the importance of English language skills, and I hope that he will work through all the unintended consequences of the financial implications. I expect that he will say more on that point.
We are living in difficult financial straits. In the exchange that I had earlier with the hon. Member for Lewisham East, I was sincere in saying that there has been a tremendous amount of waste in translation services not only in our hospitals but in local authorities. Conservative local authorities have been equally big offenders, with huge amounts of money spent on translating masses of literature into umpteen languages. I have seen that both in Westminster and in the next-door authority of Kensington and Chelsea, where I was a councillor for eight years. I made these points time and again during the late 1990s about the amount of money being spent in rather more clement economic weather—I was not trying to be flippant and we have got to think about that. Is there a way in which we can make distinct savings and ring-fence money saved on translation services to be put into ESOL?
In the 10 years in which I have been an MP in inner London, I have always stood up for English language courses. I have always said, whenever I have been lobbied—particularly by the large Bangladeshi and Chinese communities in my constituency—about courses in their home language, that I do not believe it right for public money to be spent in that area. However, where there is a need—there clearly is—for English language skills in those communities, we should do all that we can. I accept we are living in a very different economic environment and that money is tight.
I take on board what the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) had to say. This issue transcends further education; it is an issue of community cohesion, and we must take it extremely seriously. If that means the Minister knocking some heads together in the Home Office to ensure that we can parcel elements of this budget, it would be a sensible way forward.
I hope that the Minister will take on board some of the heartfelt concerns expressed today. I accept that we are in such a difficult financial state that we have to make some difficult decisions and that this is one of them. However, I hope that we can look at community cohesion in a much broader way, and I also hope that the Minister will work with other Ministers.
I look forward to hearing other contributions to the debate. I hope that we can all work together, and that it is not a matter of making hyperbolic claims about the Government being somewhat racist or sexist. We all recognise that there are difficult decisions to be made, and I hope that we can work together in the interests of community cohesion and of making life better for many millions of immigrants who are committed to this country. Many of them were equally committed to the events on the streets of London last Friday. It was great to see many coloured faces of people who recognise that the royal family represents all their interests in a way that no political party can purport to do.
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
On a number of occasions, I have presented certificates to ESOL graduates in my constituency. York college, which provides the majority of the courses, does an essential job.
English is one of our great national assets. It is the international language for business, science, politics and the internet. It gives our country an enormous economic advantage. It is a mistake to think of immigration as a one-way flow. Millions who came to our country helped us to create the economic boom of the noughties. They came from eastern and central Europe and from many other parts of the world, and many of them returned to their countries speaking English, which helps to give us the enormous global economic advantage of making ours the pre-eminent international language.
The Government are right to use the teaching of English for speakers of other languages as a way to help people get paid work, but they are wrong to suppose that it is only Jobcentre Plus that provides a route from benefits into work. College courses are effective, and they reach people that Jobcentre Plus does not reach and enable them to find work. The Government are also wrong to assume that paid work is the only way for people to contribute to society. What about voluntary work? The big society will fail if it does not involve immigrants and speakers of other languages. The Prime Minister is right to say that immigrants have a duty to integrate; they should not be excluded from the big society, but unless they are given the opportunity to learn our language, they will be.
The Association of Colleges has made some useful suggestions, and I hope that the Minister will consider them carefully and take them on board. It suggests a sliding scale of fees rather than students getting the course for free or having to pay the full rate. It also suggests that for many of those with basic skills needs, the learning of English is a means to an end, because without the ability to communicate in our language, they will not gain the necessary basic numeracy and literacy skills.
I know that time is short, so my final point is this. I know that the Minister has taken a huge interest in promoting apprenticeships during his time in Parliament, both in opposition and in government. He will know that black and minority ethnic people are enormously under-represented on apprenticeship schemes. If the Government cut back on giving people from other countries who do not speak English the opportunity to learn our language, that huge racial disadvantage will never be overcome.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
I apologise, Mr Gale, because I will not be able to stay for the whole debate; I have to attend the Welfare Reform Public Bill Committee at 10.30 am.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) on securing this important debate. I am grateful to the Minister for engaging in correspondence with me on the problem as it affects my central Manchester constituency. My constituency also contains a diverse and successful multicultural community, so I strongly support everything said this morning about the impact on individuals and families and on the implications for strengthening communities and community cohesion.
I wish to raise a couple of specific points, as time is so short. First, will the Minister amplify what he said in his letter of 13 April about the way in which colleges are to be encouraged to identify and draw in people from vulnerable backgrounds and communities? What processes will be put in place to make that happen? What guidance will be made available to colleges to support them in making those decisions? What auditing or monitoring will be put in place subsequently to ensure that it is indeed the most vulnerable learners who have access to those courses?
Secondly, ESOL funding is to continue for people making steps back into employment through jobseeker’s allowance or employment and support allowance. Whether those people are routed through Jobcentre Plus or Work programme providers, how will the Minister ensure that there is sufficient funding for colleges to sustain that provision and enable access to those courses? As I have said, it is a big concern for Trafford college in my constituency that classes may have to close. ESOL funding has always been patchy and stop-go, and it is difficult to rely on it. What assurances can the Minister give that there will be certainty of funding, even for those who now or under a future regime will remain entitled?
Thirdly, what attention is being to given to ensuring that ESOL provision is sufficiently resourced to meet the needs of people not only to learn English but to learn it in a way that allows them to apply it through their roles in the community and on their journeys towards employment? That applies whether or not they are on active benefits. Many women in my community in Trafford are not on active benefits, but it is none the less likely that at some point they will want to move into paid employment. They are certainly actively engaged in their communities.
The best way to reach those women is in the settings where they already go, and for English language teaching to be set in the context of the activities that they already undertake in the community—in Sure Start centres, in caring for their children, in medical centres and talking to their doctors, in improving their children’s health and well-being and in the context of the kind of jobs that they might be interested in doing in future, such as caring, catering or clerical roles. I would be grateful if the Minister were to say something about making ESOL courses useful and relevant to people’s life courses, whether in or out of work, and about resourcing and supporting them.
I am sorry that I cannot be here to hear the Minister’s response, but I undertake to read his comments in the Official Report, particularly as I am meeting the principal of my further education college in Trafford later this week to discuss this important matter.
Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) on securing this important debate. Indeed, the number of Members present shows how essential it is.
As time is short and many have spoken on the matters about which I would have liked to speak, I simply support the ideas that have been expressed and recognise the feelings in their constituencies. As a person who had little knowledge of English 42 years ago, I know that without the opportunity to learn the language in this country I probably would have been working on the factory floor. In today’s circumstances, I would probably not even have had the chance to work.
Ealing, Hammersmith and West London college in my constituency is one of the largest providers of ESOL courses in the UK, with almost 3,000 students at its five campuses. More than 2,000 of the students are women, many of whom will now be denied the chance to improve their English, their job prospects and their children’s chances of fully integrating into society. The college told me that it was concerned that the high proportion of women who will be affected will have a severe impact on families and on the next generation. They said this change will stop English being spoken at home, which means that the fluency of the younger generation will continue to be affected, thus ensuring that the literacy and language problems already present in our schools will be perpetuated, affecting educational standards.
The college also spoke to me of its dismay that women in particular will now be denied the chance to learn. It said:
“it seems to have been forgotten that many of these students have escaped serious repression in their own countries. The women in particular are also frequently fighting their husbands to have the freedom to study. The real issue, therefore, is that they have come to this country to find their voice, and in return we are locking them into silence.”
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
My hon. Friend rightly concentrates, as have others, on the effect on students, but Ealing, Hammersmith and West London college—the largest provider of ESOL in his constituency and mine—will suffer badly because ESOL courses give people access to other courses enabling them to gain further qualifications. The college will lose £5 million, and its successful future will be jeopardised by these changes, which are very short-sighted.
Mr Sharma
I agree with my hon. Friend. The colleges and campuses are in both of our constituencies, and I am aware of his point.
The students at West London college felt so strongly about the changes that they organised an ESOL day of action, which I, and probably many other Members in their own constituencies, attended. The students are worried that their voices are not being heard by the Government. Now is the time to stop and listen to those who will have to live with these changes. The Prime Minister wanted the Government to go further in helping those who come to the UK to learn English, and we must ensure that that wish is fulfilled. I hope that the Minister will take note of the views that are being expressed not just by me but by many of my colleagues who have experienced similar calls from their constituents. He must ensure that people have the opportunities and resources to integrate into our society and to improve their working opportunities so that they, too, can contribute to the future of this country.
Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab)
I apologise that I will have to rush away early from this debate to attend a statutory instrument Committee at 10.30. I congratulate my neighbour and hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) on the fine way in which she has presented her case today. She said everything that needed to be said, but we all want to add a little of our own experience.
Many of the students of the Granville Park education centre, which my hon. Friend visited, are constituents of mine, and Lewisham college is in my constituency. Its excellent principal, Maxine Room, has made representations on the subject to both my hon. Friends and me.
If the Minister were to say that the Labour Government started this process of targeting benefits, I would say to him that when we targeted, we wanted to be absolutely sure that these were people who were resident in this country and who had the right to be here and to be on benefits. There is a difference between what his Government propose and what we did in 2007. We said, “If you are here and entitled as a member of our society, we want you to be able to learn English.” It is this change to active benefits that excludes so many women. Women are often not even required to sign for active benefits. They are legitimately claiming inactive benefits. Many women who are single parents have young children in their care and cannot possibly put themselves forward for an active benefit, but they are playing a real part in society. It is this matter of community cohesion that must concern us.
I have been appalled by the idea of very young children having to explain to doctors their mothers’ gynaecological conditions. Some women have no hope of getting medical help without such assistance from their child.
I remember a group of Somali mothers who came together because of their great concern that their children were not in school. Some 17 Somali youngsters were identified who were not in school and not known to the education authorities. The mothers did not know how to get their children into school. If we want community cohesion, we do not want to see children, who were never schooled in the original countries from which they and their mothers fled because of appalling violence, not being given the opportunity to be in school in this country.
I urge the Minister to look at the equality assessment objectively when it comes in. Opposition Members and, I think, Government Members, believe that that will demonstrate that this measure is against everything the Government have ever said they want to achieve in terms of community cohesion and it is certainly discriminatory against women. He must find the scope to act if he has the evidence. This issue must be grasped because we are punishing those who have often suffered already, those who have come here to make a better life for themselves, and those who just want to live a normal life but cannot access that life or integrate. Time prevents me from reading out some of the many letters that I have received on this matter. None the less, the Minister will see that he needs to change his mind. I am sorry that I cannot be here to hear him promise to do that, but I hope very much that he will.
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)
In view of the time, I will severely curtail my points. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) on this timely debate and I welcome the comments from Government Members on the need to work together in resolving the issue. I tabled an early-day motion on the issue, which drew support from parties across the House. There is the potential for us to address the concerns that have been raised this morning.
I will not read out all the testimonies that I received in response to my early-day motion. A number of students from Sheffield college talked about wanting to improve their lives, to find a job, to help their children, and to be able to talk to their doctor. One said, “I don’t need an interpreter any more. I feel more confident. I can join in with things. I won’t keep myself so far from society.” Is not that what we all want to see?
Of the testimonies I received, almost all of them were from women. That is not surprising. As has already been said, 74% of ESOL students on inactive benefits—those who will be affected by the Government’s proposals—are women. Six months on from the original proposals being published by the Department, the equality impact assessment has yet to be produced. Only last week, the Minister, in response to a written question that I tabled, said:
“There is no specific date currently planned for publication of the assessment.”—[Official Report, 27 April 2011; Vol. 527, c. 487W.]
That is simply not acceptable because there is a date for implementation of the proposals. There is a real danger that we will find ourselves in a position—as the Government have on other policies—in which we implement changes before we consider the evidence. I join my hon. Friend in urging a delay in implementation.
Although, regrettably, I will not be able to stay until the end of the debate, I would like an assurance from the Minister today that he will consider our remarks and that we will receive the equality impact assessment and have the opportunity to consider it before the Government proceed with their proposals. That delay will give us the time to consider the helpful proposals that have been made by the Association of Colleges and others. My own early-day motion simply asks the Government to modify their proposals to alleviate the devastating impact that they will have on many people, and on women in particular.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) brilliantly summed up the main points. I just want to add a few remarks about what is happening in my area. I have been contacted by Uxbridge college, which delivers ESOL classes from the Hayes campus. The principal, Laraine Smith, has contacted me, as has the ESOL lecturer Rubina Kause. My constituency, like that of my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma), is one of the most multicultural in the country and has a 100-year history of migration. When ESOL was introduced, we found that it significantly contributed to overcoming divisions and isolation and maintaining a cohesive community.
I attend the award ceremonies for ESOL classes in my area. There is a 100% attendance record for such classes, and they are mainly attended by women. When I ask them what their motivation is, they say that it is about supporting their children in education and wanting to engage in the wider community. In my area, 80% of students are not on the benefits appropriate to enable them to maintain their attendance at these classes.
The main concern expressed by the colleges is that individuals will be driven back into isolation, which will result in a divided community in the future. Uxbridge college in my constituency has already lost its capital grant for reconstruction. It has lost grants that have supported ESOL classes and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Southall said, its concern is that there will now be further instability that will threaten the courses that it offers in the long term.
I urge the Minister to pause again. We await the outcome of the equality impact assessment, but I invite him today to visit a number of colleges. I am happy for him to visit classes in my own area and to meet representatives of the University and College Union and some of its lecturers to talk through the long-term implications for our communities of the threat to these courses. I cannot overestimate the seriousness of the cuts to these courses for the wider community.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
I, too, want to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) for initiating this debate. I also want to thank the Minister. Along with representatives of the Refugee Council and the National Institute of Adult Continuing Education, I had a meeting with him about this policy. At the end of that meeting, I felt a bit optimistic. I feel slightly foolish about that now; I thought that the Minister had got the point.
That point has been emphasised in speeches today. It is that this policy will affect women in an unfair way and that the women who will be affected are the mothers of children whose future is here in Britain. I do not think that we have heard enough about their children. For a child to succeed in school, the input of their parents is critical and mums who can read in English with their children make a major contribution to their children’s learning.
In my constituency, the evidence is that five times as many women as men are affected by this policy and that it is mums for whom the difference is greatest, because it is mums who quite often find it difficult to get out of their homes. That is not only because they do not have the necessary resources but because there are “gatekeepers” in their family who will not allow them out, except to something safe such as an ESOL class. It is a very liberating experience for mothers to attend such a class.
I urge the Minister to raid not only the translation budgets, which the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr Field) has already referred to, but the interpretation budgets. In our police stations and health service in Slough, we spend a huge amount on Language Line. If we could ensure that patients and criminals alike could speak English, less money would need to be spent on Language Line. The Minister needs to invest to save that money.
The Minister wrote to me after our meeting and said:
“We have therefore prioritised Government investment in training for unemployed people actively seeking work.”
He is being too short-term in his thinking. The people who we are talking about today will be able to work in future, but right now they are not able to seek work actively. Unless we invest in them at this point, they will never be able to seek work actively, because one of the things that I have discovered through speaking to many ESOL teachers is that getting people early, before they have learned to get by with pidgin English, is the key to their achieving success in learning English.
I urge the Minister not only to scoop money out of the interpretation budgets for the Home Office and the NHS and use it to reduce the need for interpretation, but to invest in community provision of ESOL. That provision involves family learning, ESOL with reading and ESOL with basic skills. If he could offer that kind of provision, it would provide some of the things that we need for the mums who I am talking about.
There is another thing that the Minister could do. In his letter to me, he referred to “flexibilities” for colleges. If there were more flexibility for colleges, the risk that my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East referred to—of colleges having money that they cannot spend—would be reduced. In my constituency, for example, the percentage of students who will receive fee remission in the council-run courses will fall from 82% at present to 6% under the Minister’s proposals. If he gave complete flexibility to colleges and other providers about how they used the money that he gave them, I think that they would use that flexibility well.
Unless the Minister has community-based ESOL education for free or at affordable prices for the mums I have mentioned, we will create a generation of children who, although they were born in Britain, will speak pidgin English and will not be able to use their learning as well as they ought to. Unless he invests in addressing that problem, we will lose another generation of workers.
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
I want to make two points, briefly. First, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma) has already said, Ealing, Hammersmith and West London college is one of the largest colleges in the country and it is the largest provider of ESOL in the country; it has almost 3,000 ESOL students. Of the college’s total number of students, 84% are of non-white British heritage, and for 70% English is not their mother tongue. Among the students, there are 100 nationalities and 70 languages are spoken. Of those taking ESOL courses, 65% are on inactive benefits and 77% are women.
Those statistics show that ESOL is fundamental to the life and success of that college and the surrounding community. This measure is not simply “another cut”; it is destroying the basis for education for thousands of people in my constituency and the neighbouring constituencies in west London—and, of course, over a wider area.
My second point is that this policy is not only about education; it is exactly to do with what the Prime Minister has said about British values, culture and traditions. In my constituency, we had an ESOL day on 24 March, when the students at Ealing, Hammersmith and West London college came together to celebrate their own history and culture, as well as what ESOL had given them. They showed great enthusiasm, producing a magazine written in English in which they not only showed off their skills but said what ESOL meant to them. I will read out one excerpt from that magazine, from Mohammed Conde, who is from Guinea:
“If you don’t speak English, that means no life for you. How do you expect to live in this country if you’re not able to speak English? There are many things you have to understand about the country. For example, the laws, the history, the culture and the lifestyle, and all this only happens when you start speaking English.”
That could have been the Prime Minister speaking.
If the Minister will not listen to Mohammed Conde and the other students at the college, perhaps he will listen to the Prime Minister and look not only for people to succeed economically in this country but for a more cohesive society as a consequence of preserving ESOL for students who simply will not be able to afford the amount—up to £1,200—that they will have to pay in the future. That will destroy our colleges and the future of many young people and adults in my community and others.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
I will be very brief because of the short time we have left.
I think that the Minister has been in touch with or visited City and Islington college in my constituency. Consequently, he will be well aware of the excellent work that the college does on ESOL training, the good-quality teaching that it provides and the knock-on benefits for the entire community.
During his visit, he will also have heard from the students there—and no doubt from many other students around the country—that it is not only the college-based teaching that is valuable and important but the community-based teaching and the grant support for small community groups to learn English as a second language. That is because many people, particularly women, feel extremely isolated. For them, the concept and prospect of going to a college is quite daunting, whereas a fairly small teaching group in a community centre or a similarly appropriate location can be just as effective as teaching in a college.
Any analysis of what we are doing in this country about teaching English as a second language would show that the relatively small amount spent on it has enormous beneficial effects in later life for the children of ESOL students and for the economy and the community as a whole.
In Australia, any newly arrived migrant who does not speak English receives—as of right—up to 500 hours of English teaching, to enable them to participate fully in Australian society. That is extremely valuable. The community in north London that I am very proud to represent has dozens of different languages, possibly even 100. The multicultural concept and the associated quality of life is hugely valuable. However, there is a thirst among those people to be able to contribute to society. If we do not teach those people English, or give them the opportunity to learn English, in a college or elsewhere in a community, where will they learn it? English is not spoken in their homes, as nobody there has had the chance to learn it other than through the children. As a result, we end up with the embarrassing consequences of small children translating for their parents, as other Members have already pointed out, or we end up with children underachieving in school because their parents are unable to support and assist them. Those children underachieve and their parents are unable to access work.
We should educate the parents, particularly the mother, to speak English. The knock-on effects of doing that are enormous—for the achievements of the children in school and for the participation in society of both parents in every way, including gaining access to work and jobs. We would get back the money spent a dozenfold, in increased taxation and increased income for the community as a whole. It is a win-win situation as a result of a relatively small investment.
My plea to the Minister is that he fight his corner within Government spending requirements, that he understand both the value of English as a second language to the learners and its benefit to our entire community, and that he recognise the dedicated commitment of ESOL teachers in colleges and communities up and down the country. They not only teach English as a second language but do so much to bring the people they teach into the ambit of community life, so that they understand what it is like to live in this country and understand the rights, responsibilities and opportunities that they have. Cutting back on that is not sensible, fair or reasonable, and will simply be counter-productive in the long run. Give people a chance to communicate, participate and be part of our society; give them the chance to learn English as a second language.
Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) on the comprehensive and passionate way in which she has put her case—and, indeed, the case of so many Members on both sides of the Chamber today. She conveyed with great passion and conviction her points about the particular impact on women, which were echoed by so many, and about whether the Minister had realised that two thirds of ESOL students were women. She also made points about the practicalities of the co-funding, about why the Departments are treating ESOL differently from various other Skills Funding Agency funding streams, and about economic activity.
My hon. Friend’s passion and conviction have been shared by the other contributors. The hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) urged the Minister to look at the cost-benefit analysis of ESOL and focused, very importantly, on economic inequality. My hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) talked about listening to what the Association of Colleges has said about sliding scales of fees. The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr Field) reminded us that the issue is broader than just further education and used, I think, the phrase “knocking heads” with the Home Office—that is a challenge for the Minister.
My hon. Friend the Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley) made the very important point that the big society will fail if it does not include new entrants, and that ESOL is very important in that process. My hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) urged the Minister to look at the design of the ESOL programme, and my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma) made the point that many women come to England to find a voice and that we are in danger, with the legislative changes, of locking them into silence.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock) made some very important points about the role of single parents, and my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) said that the importance of the equality impact assessment was still not recognised by the Government, even at this late stage. My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) talked about how ESOL overcomes division and isolation, and my hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) made a very important point about the future of Britain—about mothers and children—and said that the issue is part of lifelong learning, about which I know the Minister is passionate.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) talked about how ESOL was fundamental to the life and success of FE colleges, and I shall say a little more about that shortly. My hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) made another important point about community-based, as well as college-based, teaching. In my own constituency of Blackpool South, many of the groups that we want to meet simply will not or cannot go to colleges, so that point is very important.
The Minister has had a cornucopia of advice and fervour today, and I think that he will recognise all the points made. ESOL courses play a key role in helping people who have arrived in the UK to learn and develop English and to integrate into our society. The Minister will know, because of his own portfolio, that that is important in equipping them to contribute to the communities in which they live, not just through their integration, but also through their skills, their taxes and their economic activities.
As we have heard several times today, no less a person than the Prime Minister has banged on about the issue in recent speeches and has rightly identified the understanding of English as a key element. Yet paradoxically, at the very time when he is being so fervent with the rhetoric, the impact of some of his Ministers’ decisions will make the job much harder. Their decision to remove ESOL funding for learners on inactive benefits—in other words, not on jobseeker’s allowance or employment and support allowance—will hit many people on low incomes. They are precisely the sort of people that ESOL courses would help, by improving their language skills and, in turn, helping them in the job market and to feel further integrated into our society, rather than being stuck on the perimeter. It is worth remembering that, alongside these changes, the £4.3 million learner support fund that gave colleges the discretion to help with fees has been scrapped, as has the funding uplift that gave ESOL courses 20% more than courses in other subjects.
I am afraid that, as with so many other policies, the Department seems to have rushed in and then stopped to ask the questions later. It is very much like “Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland”: sentence first, trial later. Only now, after the policy has been announced, a matter of months from the changes coming into force, has the Department commissioned a specific equality impact assessment.
I urge the Minister to listen to everything that has been said today and to make that assessment a real basis for real change. How could his Department sign off on changes as fundamental as these without a proper assessment of how they could affect the disadvantaged and the vulnerable, and exacerbate the gender bias in progression and employment? I hope that he already has his officials working on a plan to counteract some of those anticipated problems.
The changes to ESOL funding are, however, only the tip of a large iceberg. The restriction of fee remission to only those on active benefits is being applied across the board by the Skills Funding Agency as part of the harsh funding settlement that the Minister’s Department was dealt by last year’s comprehensive spending review, and Lsect—a learning and skills analysis company—estimates that the move could affect up to 25% of the adult provision currently funded by the SFA. That works out at some 300,000 learners.
Last year’s Government skills strategy was called “Skills for Sustainable Growth”, but what exactly is sustainable in cutting back on support that would enable low-income earners to take courses to improve their skills and job prospects? Those are surely vital aspects of building a balanced and sustainable economy. Someone working 30 hours a week on the minimum wage, for example, who has an annual income of £9,050 and receives working tax credits, will no longer qualify for full fee remission, thanks to the changes being brought in by the Government. I believe that the policies will nudge people away from, rather than towards, work, and that they point to a fundamental and potentially fatal disconnect between the Government’s policies on skills and welfare.
It is clear from discussions that I have had with many of the key stakeholder groups, who were not consulted on the potential impact of ESOL change, that they are driven by the waste as well as the unfairness. I attended and spoke at a meeting in this House at the end of March, at which the University and College Union, the Association of Colleges, the Association of Teachers and Lecturers, the Refugee Council and a number of individuals eloquently expressed their frustration with the Government on this issue. I urge the Minister to take on board not just what he can do in his own Department, but what he can and needs to do with the Home Office and the Department for Work and Pensions, to prod them into rowing back from this ill-advised course of action.
The ESOL learning cuts could be, as others have said today, another blow to FE colleges, which have already had to cope with a 25% cut in their resource grant over the CSR period and the possible disastrous drop in enrolment thanks to the abolition of the education maintenance allowance. The cutting of ESOL funding could put college courses at risk, and in turn jeopardise lecturers’ positions, and that is reflected in a recent UCU-Unison survey that shows that 60 of the colleges surveyed were already planning to cut courses over the next year.
The Minister is, as others have been, fond of referring to FE as moving away from being a Cinderella sector. However, he knows—because he and I were in Birmingham at the Association of Colleges conference, where it came up time and again from the floor—that many of the colleges that right hon. and hon. Members here represent are very worried about the story’s ending. The confusion that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has caused over ESOL sums up the muddled thinking and lack of joined-up thinking across the Departments, with sweeping changes being made before their impact has been considered.
The Prime Minister has talked the talk on promoting cohesion and integration, but the Minister’s Department is failing to walk the walk. The issues being thrown up in ESOL provision will replicate themselves as general FE colleges across the country suffer the implications. The consequences will be serious for those who want to gain the skills to improve their career prospects and move on with their lives.
The issue is about the big society and moving forward. I urge the Minister to listen to what has been said today, delay the introduction of the policies, consider alternatives and convene the group that has been discussed. As I said, the Prime Minister has been eloquent on the subject. On 2 February, in response to a question on ESOL from one of his own Back Benchers, the hon. Member for Keighley (Kris Hopkins), he said:
“I completely agree, and the fact is that in too many cases”,
learning English
“is not happening. The previous Government did make some progress…I think we need to go further.”—[Official Report, 2 February 2011; Vol. 522, c. 856.]
Are the cuts the sort of going further that we need? I think not. The Minister is rightly fond of literary quotations. I remind him of the words of Siegfried Sassoon’s poem “The General”, about Tommies on the western front:
“‘He’s a cheery old card,’ grunted Harry to Jack…
But he did for them both by his plan of attack.”
If the Minister does not wish himself or his Prime Minister to be associated with such an outcome, he needs to think, persuade and act fast.
The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning (Mr John Hayes)
I am delighted to speak in this debate secured by the hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander), who represents her constituency, which I know extremely well, with a passion and commitment. I thank other hon. Members for contributing to this debate. Both the tone and the spirit of their contributions have been helpful. I put it on record that in opposition and, more especially, in government, I have always informed what I have said and done by listening to the views of others, and I am happy to do so again today. In the short time available to me, I hope to be able to give some illustration of that willingness to listen.
Let us be clear about the context in which the decisions are being made. I have two points to make about that. One was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr Field). We are debating in difficult times for Government finances and public spending. The strategy that we published last November, which has been mentioned, set out changes that, although positive in my view, occur in the context of spending reductions, not just in the area of English for speakers of other languages but in many other areas. We have had to consider closely how to get maximum cost-effectiveness. I do not think that anyone in this Chamber expects ESOL to be exempt from such scrutiny. It was absolutely right to consider it alongside other spending commitments to decide how we could ensure value for money.
The second contextual point is that the changes are part of a strategy. I will not plead guilty to the charge that they were not thought through. We planned our skills strategy during five years in opposition, and the document that I published was the result of a careful rethink of how we fund and manage skills in this country. At the heart of that rethink is the question of who pays for what. What contribution should individuals make, what contribution should the state make and what contribution should business make? That question has been ducked for too long. It has informed the debate on skills for as long as I have been involved in it, but it has been posed and never previously answered. We are moving towards giving some clear answer.
The context is one of difficulty and the need for a fresh range of ideas and fresh thinking. However, it is also absolutely right that changes should be made on the basis of fairness. I am strongly committed to some of the principles articulated in this debate, such as social justice, social cohesion and social mobility. They are the cornerstone of my political views and should inform what we do in respect of policy. [Interruption.] I will not give way. I am terribly sorry. There have been a lot of contributions, and I want to make as much progress as I can. I apologise because I normally would.
I have five points to make in the time available to me, and in making them I will try to reflect the comments made during this debate and our consideration of these matters in correspondence and meetings. The first, which is a point of disagreement with some of the comments made, is that I take Trevor Phillips’s view of multiculturalism, to be blunt. I think that there is a choice to be made in framing a society with people who started in many different places. Either we build a society around integration or we allow the co-existence of subcultures, with the potential risk, as Phillips said, of ghettoisation. In that spirit, it is important that we develop strong bonds that unite us so that the things that unite us are more important than those that divide us. Language seems central to that. Indeed, I agree that language is an absolutely crucial element in creating such social cohesion. The issue is how to fund the acquisition of those necessary language skills.
That brings me to the second point. If English language skills are critical to the kind of integration that I seek and that the Prime Minister has advocated so powerfully, how do we go about funding the acquisition of those skills? When I first considered ESOL, it was clear to me that, for example, many people who came here temporarily as migrant workers were being trained in English free of charge. As Alan Tuckett mentioned in his Guardian article on the subject last week, some firms have advertised abroad, saying, “Come to England to work and you will be taught English free by the Government.” That seemed entirely unsustainable to me. It is absolutely wrong for the Government to subsidise highly profitable companies that recruit abroad to train their staff in English. It is not acceptable, and it must end.
Other people who came here used ESOL as a way to acquire language skills that helped them socially or culturally, or because they wanted to travel further. I remember going to a college and meeting someone from another European country, whom I asked, “Why are you learning ESOL here?” He said, “So I can travel around the world. You can’t travel around the world if you don’t have English.” That also seemed to me fundamentally unacceptable.
My third point is a point of absolute agreement with the arguments made by the hon. Members for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) and for Lewisham East. It is important, where women and families are fundamentally affected by the absence of good English skills, that we consider how to help and support them. The fourth point is that it is also vital, where the absence of English is an impediment to employment and the economic activity that is central to people’s social and civic engagement, that we should also help. That is why I have decided to support people on active benefits.
The fifth point is that it was I who decided that a further impact assessment should be done. An impact assessment done at the time of the skills strategy determined that there would be no disproportionate effect on particular groups, but I felt that we should go further and consider the particular effect of this policy. That assessment will inform how the policy develops.
Mr Hayes
I will ensure that it is published in good time—certainly before the summer recess—so that we have a chance to consider it in detail, informed by debates such as this one. The assessment will, of course, consider issues such as family learning and the effect of the changes on children, mothers and women. In addition, we will consider closely how our support for adult community learning can assist the wider cultural agenda. I have defended adult community learning clearly and strongly—people will know that the £210 million budget remains intact, even following the comprehensive spending review. We will also consider how colleges can use their flexibility to address the kinds of particular concern in their neighbourhood that have been raised today.
In summary, yes, we needed to re-consider ESOL, as we have needed to consider all spending priorities; yes, we needed to eliminate some of the waste; yes, I will ensure that the review is completed properly and informs policy. We will then determine how we move forward, inspired by some of the comments made today.
Mr Roger Gale (in the Chair)
I congratulate all hon. Members who have participated in this debate on their exemplary conduct. It has been most helpful.
Childhood Obesity
(13 years, 7 months ago)
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Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Gale, for the opportunity to introduce this debate on childhood obesity, which is, unfortunately, an issue that I understand far too well. Childhood obesity is a significant issue in my constituency of Brentford and Isleworth, which is part of the Hounslow borough—13.9% of children in reception are at risk of being obese, with the figure rising to 24.6% by year 6, or age 10—so I have a personal interest in finding out as much as I can about the issue and what we can do to address it.
I believe that there are two strong reasons why childhood obesity requires Government focus. First, the issue concerns children, who may not, therefore, be directly responsible for the situation in which they find themselves. We must, therefore, do all that we can to support and help them. Secondly, the potential long-term implications on the health of these children is serious, as is the cost to the state of their medical care, so it is our duty to do all that we can to address the issue.
This debate is timely, because there have been several recent developments on the issue. When I switched on the news this morning, there was a story about overweight people in middle age having a greater chance of dementia. On the children’s side, the Greater London authority has commissioned a report on childhood obesity in London, which looks in detail at the causes of childhood obesity and the effectiveness of intervention programmes. The London assembly has published a report on childhood obesity in London, “Tipping the scales”, which considers the role that the Mayor of London could play and puts the cost of treating childhood obesity in the capital at £7.1 million per annum. The current generation of obese children will cost the London economy £110.8 million a year if they grow up to be overweight adults. The Government recently launched their responsibility deal as part of the strategy for public health in England. They are also working on the paper on obesity, which will be published later this year. It would be good to hear from the Minister about any progress on that.
In today’s debate, I want to review the scale of the issue, talk about some of the possible causes of childhood obesity and look to the future to discuss what actions we can take. First, how significant is childhood obesity in the UK? The headline figures on childhood obesity in this country are alarming—29.8% of children aged two to 15 are either overweight or obese, which is almost one in three children. On current trends, two thirds of children will be overweight or obese by 2050. Breaking down the figures on childhood obesity throughout the UK shows that there is a particular problem in urban areas, especially London. Data for 2009-10 show that in London 11.6% of children aged four to five, and 21.8% of children aged 10 to 11, are at risk of being obese. I have already mentioned the figures for my area in London.
The figures are a significant worry for the future health of our nation as a whole, because evidence suggests that overweight adolescents have a 70% chance of becoming overweight or obese adults. Obesity is a disease with, potentially, very serious health implications, including, in the short term, breathlessness, feeling tired, and back and joint pains, and, in the longer term, hypertension, cardiovascular disease—mainly heart disease and stroke—type 2 diabetes, musculoskeletal disorders, especially osteoarthritis, and some cancers, including breast cancer and colon cancer. There are also psychological issues of low self-esteem, lack of confidence, depression and feeling isolated, which restrict a person’s potential ability to earn. Obesity is also associated with a higher chance of premature death and disability in adulthood. The long-term costs for the UK of this level of childhood obesity are vast. The 2007 Foresight report on obesity predicted that the NHS costs associated with overweight people and obesity will double to £10 billion per year by 2050, and that the wider costs to society and business will reach £50 billion per year by 2050.
Secondly, why is there an issue? Before we can decide how best to tackle childhood obesity, we need to understand more about what causes it. As one doctor once put to me, at its most basic level the formula behind obesity is simple—we put on weight when we take in more calories than we burn off through day-to-day living and physical exercise. However, we need to dig deeper than that to find out what is causing the problem, because, clearly, a number of factors are at play.
We are talking about children, so perhaps the biggest single factor is parental influence. Weight Concern reports that children with two overweight parents are 70% more likely to be overweight themselves. GPs to whom I have spoken in my area are often the first point of contact for parents on the issue, and they feel that, often, parents do not accept that their children are overweight. Given that perhaps more than a quarter of other children in the class are also overweight, they may feel that their child is normal. They may also feel that the suggestion that their child is overweight is a direct criticism of their parenting skills, and they are reluctant to accept that.
I am not a parent myself, but I have discussed this issue with friends and constituents who are. There is no doubt in my mind that there is a lack of knowledge and information that is easy to understand. Often, parents simply do not realise the number of calories that they are feeding to their children. For example, I am pretty sure that no parent would allow their child to sit and eat five spoonfuls of sugar, but some think nothing of giving them fizzy drinks containing the same quantity. Ask a parent how many calories there are in a bowl of chocolate-flavoured cereal and what percentage of a child’s recommended intake of sugar that represents, and I would wager that most would probably not know the answer.
When I speak to parents about the issue, a common story emerges. Many start off with the best of intentions, breastfeeding their babies for weeks or months under the regular guidance of health visitors. Perhaps they then move on to religiously preparing pureed vegetables and home-cooked meals that they bag up and put in the freezer for their babies and toddlers. Gradually, however, as the years progress and as the influence of peers, TV and the media grows, as well as that of, critically, the children themselves, who become more demanding and fussy about what they eat, it is too easy to slip into bad habits from which it is very difficult to get them back.
I am not saying all this to give parents a hard time—far from it. What I am saying is that those who feed our children and organise their activities—typically parents and schools for the most part—are so critical to this issue and need to be supported in any way we can. Jamie Oliver and many others in the school environment have worked hard to make progress in improving the quality of the meals that are provided to children when they are at school, and they should be commended for that work.
As I mentioned earlier, there are many factors at play, and I want to touch on another key one. Deprivation has been shown to play a significant part in levels of obesity, with children from the poorest backgrounds being much more likely to be obese. When families are struggling financially, they are more likely to be attracted to cheap, high fat, energy dense and poor foods, many of which are marketed with “buy one, get one free” deals.
The 2007 Foresight report on obesity highlighted the full range of factors that it believed were behind the trend towards obesity and made the point that there are lots to consider. However, to summarise the causes, the issue is about parents who have been overweight themselves, those who live in an urban area and those who come from a lower-income household.
Thirdly, what can be done in the future? Given that so many different factors influence childhood obesity, this is clearly not just a health issue, although I am pleased that a Health Minister is responding to the debate. The issue is also affected by planning, housing, transport, education, business and other things. Therefore, although the model we are aiming for is spearheaded by the Department of Health, it must be integrated across all areas. The Government have already taken important steps. Public health funding has been ring-fenced to ensure that sufficient focus is given to the matter and, in March, the responsibility deal was launched.
In the White Paper, “Healthy lives, healthy people: our strategy for public health in England,” the Government stressed that localism is key. A partnership approach will be encouraged between the Government, local authorities, health representatives, education, business and the voluntary sector. In addition to putting in place the right environment for change with that partnership approach and by integrating policies across Departments, we need to tackle the problem head-on by making nationally recognised programmes available to address childhood obesity.
I am a fellow of MEND, which is a social enterprise that has evolved from a 20-year partnership between Great Ormond Street hospital and the University College London institute of child health. MEND is the child-weight management partner of more than 100 primary care trusts and 15 local authorities in England. MEND stands for Mind, Exercise, Nutrition, Do it, which sums up the approach that it takes to covering each of those important elements. At a recent parliamentary event for MEND, I met a young boy called Charlie and his mother, who had been through the MEND programme. Over 10 weeks, the whole family learned about portion sizes and how to read and understand food labels. They set goals as a family and took part in fun physical activities. Charlie told me that taking part in the MEND programme has not only helped him to lose weight, but given him new confidence. He now enjoys taking part in many school activities. The changes put in place have made a real difference to the whole family, including to Charlie’s sister. He now looks forward to going out shopping with her and her friends to buy new clothes, when previously he absolutely dreaded doing so.
Like many other programmes across the country, MEND builds in a number of best practices to ensure success. The programme is about working with the whole family to ensure that changes are made to the weekly shop and family activities. It focuses on nutrition and physical activity, and it aims to start young. One school in my constituency, Hounslow Manor, works with children from reception to achieve the greatest possible long-term impact. The programme also aims to deliver in a community-based way to reduce the stigma around the programme and build the real support networks that can make a difference.
In the GLA intelligence unit report published this month, MEND was evaluated as a cost-effective approach to obesity intervention. Other cost-effective programmes in the UK include the local exercise action pilots, which focus on increasing physical activity. Other such programmes include one to reduce television viewing in the US and the regulation of television advertising of high-fat, high-sugar products at certain times, which was introduced in Australia. I would like research to be directed at how we can extend the online elements of programmes that are provided to children. Children enjoy learning in an online, gaming-style environment, and it would be good to see how that could be used in obesity programmes to build up such an approach.
Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)
I am thoroughly enjoying the hon. Lady’s contribution. I have stayed here from the previous debate just to listen to what she has to say and because I have a personal interest in the issue. Does she agree that getting children involved in cooking enables a child to explore foods that they might otherwise not try? That enables a family to experience better, more wholesome home-cooked food, rather than the processed rubbish that is thrust at them from television screens every day.
Mary Macleod
I thank the hon. Lady for her contribution and absolutely agree with her. The issue is about the whole family, including children, understanding what goes into food. If they understand more about that and participate and get involved in it, they will have a better understanding and knowledge of what it is all about.
How should we start to deal with the issue? I want to consider a couple of things that are happening and that might have an impact. The first is the move from a primary care trust-based model to GP commissioning consortia, and the other is the upcoming London Olympics. As we move towards GP commissioning, we need to consider the impact on the obesity service provision. Currently, providers such as MEND have suggested that decision makers in the new model will require clear information and guidance in the commissioning process for weight management programmes. They have also suggested that the commissioning process itself could be simplified and redesigned to ensure that it focuses on clear and consistent information and measured outcomes. The commissioning model will help in pulling together best practice. That is certainly the case in the Great West commissioning consortium, of which Hounslow is a part. It is already starting to focus on some of the public health issues that need to be addressed.
The 2012 London Olympics and Paralympics will soon be taking place. Those events provide us with a fantastic opportunity not only in London, but elsewhere around the country to build on the legacy that will be left. What better Olympic legacy could we have than a whole generation of children who appreciate the benefits and enjoyment that come from regular participation in sport? The Mayor of London is working hard to encourage schools in London to participate in his Get Set programme, which involves school children taking part in a host of sporting and cultural activities related to the games. A majority of my schools have signed up to that. We need to make sure that other such programmes are happening across the country and that the influence of the Olympics lasts well beyond the event itself.
As part of the obesity paper, the Government will also no doubt want to consider the approach they should take on the use of legislation in the food and drinks industry. In its recent report, “Stepping up to the plate—industry in action on public health”, the Food and Drink Federation offers its view on the progress the industry is making, particularly in the areas of reducing salt, fat and energy in popular products and in improving food labelling and marketing. There is more that the food and drink industry can do in that area—for example, having clearer labelling, so that people know exactly what they are eating.
In conclusion, nearly one in three children in the UK is overweight or obese, and much more can be done to give them a better quality of life. We need to protect the long-term health of children and avoid unnecessary short and long-term financial burdens on the NHS. There needs to be a broad integrated and co-ordinated approach across Departments. We need to raise awareness about planning permission for fast food outlets very near schools and to ensure that we share best practice and measure outcomes from all the obesity intervention programmes. We want to use the London 2012 Olympics as a starting block to encourage more young people into sport and to engage in physical activity as much as possible. We need to integrate ideas, such as encouraging schools to grow food, into the curriculum and to support and encourage parents to restrict television and do more things outdoors. We also need to encourage eateries to sell healthy options and have better labelling, so that people know what they are eating. In addition, we need to encourage more exercise. I have signed up for the Race for Life that will take place this month in Battersea, so I will be running my 5 km for charity as well as for my health.
I came into politics to help to make a difference to my constituency and the country as a whole. I feel very strongly that by improving health outcomes on childhood obesity we can definitely make a real difference to many people.
Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Mary Macleod) for her excellent speech. I would also like to echo the comments my hon. Friend made with regard to the MEND programme. I met a child from my constituency who had taken part in the programme and it had made a real difference. As Members of Parliament, we should be extremely supportive of the MEND programme.
I am interested in this debate for a variety of reasons. I am the vice-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on heart disease. Heart disease runs in my family and I have always had an eye on trying to be as active and as healthy as can be reasonably expected. I am also a vice-chair of the all-party parliamentary leisure group. I am a big, unashamed sports enthusiast, because sport can play an extremely important and positive role in encouraging an active and healthy lifestyle. My hon. Friend set out the picture, but I just want to concentrate on three areas that have a significant impact on child obesity levels: planning issues, food and organised sport.
On planning issues, prior to becoming the MP for North Swindon I was a councillor for 10 years. I represented a new build housing estate that had many good things and many poor things. One of the biggest challenges was the huge differences that hampered a child’s ability to run around: back gardens are now a third of the size they were in the 1960s; front gardens all too often simply do not exist, with cars literally driving right in front of the front door, and we then wonder why children do not have the opportunity to run around; and there is a lack of accessible, useable open space. I was for ever being told that the ward I represented had a huge amount of open space, but I could not see that. All I could see was concrete, and I wondered what was going on. I did a little bit of digging and it transpired that open spaces included hedges and heritage sites, neither of which are suitable for jumpers for goalposts. We do not need premier league-standard open spaces for kids to run around. When I was growing up, the bit of open space in the middle of my estate was almost vertical. That was handy, however, as some of my friends were more technically gifted than me and some of my other friends, so we had the advantage of kicking downhill all day long.
I was the lead member for leisure on Swindon borough council for four years and a lot of the focus in tackling child obesity was on organised sport through leisure centres. The most significant opportunity for children to be active, however, is through open spaces where they are unsupervised, can put down jumpers for goalposts and follow the latest TV trends. If Wimbledon is on TV, out come the tennis rackets; with the Tour de France, out come the bikes; with the Ashes, out come the cricket bats; and football, in my case, was played for the majority of the year. I welcome the fact that in my constituency the council invested £6 million, working in conjunction with the national lottery fund, in the Lydiard park facility, and that we have fantastic parks such as Coate Water and Mouldon Hill right on the doorstep. On a sunny day, and we have been blessed in the past month or so, one can see thousands of families coming out and kids being able to run around.
Another interesting observation was that on Friday, following the fantastic royal wedding, I went to visit a number of royal wedding parties where communities had reclaimed the streets as open spaces. While parents sat around toasting the happy occasion, the children ran around and were extremely active, and I was touched by that. That shows the importance of having those open, accessible community spaces.
I echo the comments my hon. Friend made about food labelling. It is essential that parents, and children themselves, can make informed decisions. I am not one of those food zealots who says that we should never eat junk food, or unhealthy food. It is all part of a balance. I charged around as a youngster and was then sometimes fuelled by food that was deemed to be not particularly healthy, but it is about striking a balance. We need to see clear, uniform food labelling. I am a big supporter of the traffic light system. We have it here in our parliamentary restaurants and that makes a difference to my choice of food. On this occasion, the EU is dragging its feet. I encourage the Government to continue to put pressure on to ensure that all retailers use a uniform and clear system. I know that they are doing so. I welcome the Government’s public health responsibility deal, which has seen retailers such as McDonald’s, Pizza Hut and KFC committed to reducing trans fats. That is the big secret killer and we need to do so much to remove trans fats, reduce salt and display calories—all coming together as part of the informed decisions.
Hon. Members have already talked about cookery skills. I am a big advocate of basic cookery skills. I would go as far as to say that it should be a compulsory element of the national curriculum. I am a big supporter of the Let’s Get Cooking campaign, which is in its fourth year of a five-year £20 million programme funded by the national lottery. It encourages schools to take up cookery. I visited Haydonleigh primary school, in my constituency, a few weeks ago. Not only were the children taking part in a cookery session, the parents and grandparents were also coming in and getting involved so that, when they went home, it was not just a one-off, two-hour cookery session, but something that would become part of their home life. Echoing the point about allotments that was raised earlier, the school had its own allotment, and was using the fruit and vegetables that were grown in the school. Wherever possible, schools should be allowed to do that full cycle. Basic cookery skills are essential for later life. It was not so long ago that I left university, where the idea of cookery for the vast majority of my colleagues involved the ping of the microwave and a three-minute wait. We certainly need to do something about that.
Finally, and probably what I am most passionate about, is organised sport. Not so many months ago, we had a debate on the school sport partnership and I was openly critical of the proposed changes. I am delighted that the Government changed their position, because where school sport partnerships work well, they can help maximise sporting opportunities. One frustration with the debate at the time was that, despite approximately £170 million a year being invested in SSP, we had not seen a massive increase in competitive sport activity. The reason for that is that children are sports-gifted, generally, because their parents have encouraged them at a young age and, by and large, whether a school is offering that sport or not, they will have joined a sports club and carried on. The SSP, however, was about the other children—those children who would otherwise just sit in front of the TV, not taking part. The advantage of the SSP was that it offered a menu of different sporting activities and there was always something for everybody to capture their imagination. I have spent many happy times touring schools and sporting groups to see what different sport captures them. A lot of people will no doubt bash television today, but television often inspires children, whether through traditional sport or through programmes such as “Pineapple Dance Studios”—suddenly, there will be huge swathes of children dancing around in a dance hall. Yes, it is not a competitive sport as such, but it is extremely active.
The SSP in my constituency saw the number of schools taking part in two hours a week rise from 33 to 68 —a fantastic result. The changes have allowed the SSPs nine months to secure continued funding from schools. Where there are good SSPs, they will be successful. Where some of the SSPs were not so good, those schools are now free to commission their own sports coaches. That is essential because there are a limited number of teachers with confidence, particularly in primary schools, to offer that wide range. A number of teachers said to me that they needed help. Another welcome Government measure that would indirectly improve the situation is fast-tracking the troops to teachers programme, because often troops are up for outdoor active lifestyles. They will be able to come in and get the kids engaged in something that is healthy and active.
I am also a fan of working with local sports groups. If children are given a taster session, they make sure that they then have an opportunity to continue. In my constituency, we set up a successful sports forum with the active involvement of about 60 different sports groups. They share best practice and help secure extra funding, but they also link in with programmes such as the SSP, going directly to the schools and saying, “Why don’t you try this and we can then get you involved?”
Lyn Brown
I have enjoyed the hon. Gentleman’s contribution very much. I was involved in the culture sector when I was in local government, and in the Local Government Association, and I recognise many of his arguments. Does he agree with me that the biggest problem we have, following on from our schools sports intervention, is that when children leave school there is no exit strategy for young people to enable them to continue in the sports that they played? I played badminton for my school up until the age of 16. By the age of 16 I stopped and there was no local club, or link with my school and a local club, for me to continue my activity. That is where we fall down.
Justin Tomlinson
I thank the hon. Lady for that useful contribution. She is right. A lot of what we are doing is putting in the building blocks for a long-term future to tackle health issues. Organisations, such as the sports forum, can talk to people of all ages and ask people to engage. Local authorities and sports groups have a role in that. One of the best things that I saw was Swindon borough council’s Challenge Swindon campaign, which brought together offices, pubs and sports groups and got them all involved in different sports. It aimed to get people to try something and then continue to do it.
We face a number of other challenges. The lack of volunteers is always a challenge, particularly in sport. A huge number of sports groups would like to be able to do something, but there are not sufficient parents with the time to be able to do that—a particular problem for organised sport.
Private finance initiative schools are another challenge: when I was a councillor, the majority of schools in my area were PFI schools. We had a high-density development and a wonderful piece of open space, but a fence and a set of high hire charges blocked children from utilising what was their school until 4 o’clock in the afternoon. Sports clubs came to me on a number of occasions saying that they simply could not afford to use the facilities, which could not be opened because there was not enough flexibility. It was a crying shame that they were left unused.
An issue that I have brought into other debates is the cost of insurance for transporting children. As we push things such as the school Olympics or outdoor active learning, insuring a teacher to take a minibus can cost more than £1,000. I have urged the Government to create a national insurance scheme for teachers and sports clubs using minibuses.
We must not forget the Olympics and the Olympics legacy, about which we had a debate in the main Chamber last week. It is all about the legacy. We will have an enjoyable Olympics, when we are bound to win some medals, but the key will be the lasting legacy. That is why I was so supportive of the principle of school sport partnerships. A big advert for a whole variety of sports that different children will have never thought of trying will be on the television, and the ones we do particularly well in will inspire children to go and re-create them. We must ensure that we do all that we can. Going back to the point about insurance, if we want the school Olympics to work, we need to be able to get children from one school to another in order to compete.
My slightly more radical proposal is to do with how leisure and youth services work in local authorities. In the old days, leisure was very much about competitive sport, with the traditional youth service organising youth activities. The two would never meet in the middle. Times have now changed massively.
I remember that on a Friday night the leisure centre would put on an ice-skating disco for the teenagers—again, not technically a sport, but 600 teenagers building up a head of steam and racing around chasing after the person they thought particularly attractive was a sporting activity. It was absolutely fantastic. Under my radical proposal, the youth service with its mobile buses would have been better off pitching up at that facility, to offer advice, advocacy and support to those who wanted it, and letting leisure be the attraction to bring people in. Likewise with the point made about the Pineapple dance studios and the street dance, often the biggest challenge is to get young girls active, but hundreds of children want to do dance and cheerleading.
Youth and leisure services should sit around the same table, pooling their funds and facilities—the leisure centres often have the better facilities—and working together. They would then be on hand. My hon. Friend mentioned the Get Set programme, and I have written to all the schools in my constituency, encouraging them to do as much as they can.
In conclusion, we need to learn three lessons. First, it is important to have balance in an active and healthy lifestyle. We can sometimes be a bit too zealous in saying, “You should not watch TV. You should not play computer games.” When I was growing up, as soon as the sun was shining, I was charging around outside. I would not have dreamed of watching TV or playing computer games. However, in the evening, that is what I did. That is a fine balance to have.
Secondly, we should allow people to make informed decisions through clear labelling and to do things for themselves. To do that, they need the skills, which is why I am such a fan of the cookery lessons.
Finally, everything should be fun. Children like fun things. Give them the open spaces—as I said, it does not matter if the open spaces are vertical, because children are creative and will come up with their own way of dealing with such things. However, let us at least give them the opportunity to have a better lifestyle.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Roger Gale (in the Chair)
Order. I expect the occupant of the Chair will wish to call the Front Benchers at five past 12, at the latest, and three hon. Members are waiting to speak. Hon. Members should bear that in mind when speaking.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Mary Macleod) on securing and opening the debate. She showed an incredible level of expertise and was thoughtful in her remarks. We have had our own discussions about food, and I look forward to having many more in future.
I confess that I was hesitant about speaking in the debate today. It is difficult to talk about obesity, including childhood obesity—and we have a serious problem in Harlow—in a way that does not upset people. When I have spoken about it in the past, I have had many letters and e-mails from anguished individuals and residents. Nevertheless, I decided to go ahead today because the issue is so important and must be dealt with.
Some take the view that the only way to solve obesity is by encouraging people to go on a diet. I do not take that view. Dieting is essential, but obesity problems are very much about parenting, education and health. One of the best books that I have read about food—I read it almost in one sitting—was called “The Hungry Years” by William Leith. The author talks about his addiction to food, describing food almost as a drug. He went on the Atkins diet but, although he addressed that addiction, he went on to another—from memory, drugs. It was only when he dealt with the reasons for his compulsive behaviour that he ultimately managed to lose weight. It is a very important book.
I know how difficult diets are, having had to be on diets as a child because of my walking. As hon. Members understand, diets sometimes feel like walking up a hill with a boulder, like Sisyphus in the Greek myth: as soon as we get to the top, we see the boulder roll down, and we have to start again.
As well as having obesity and childhood obesity problems, Harlow has some important sporting organisations for young people. I want to talk about them; they are very much part of the big society. We have the Harlow athletics club, the Harlow gymnastics club and the football club Kickz, as well as strong candidates for the Olympics and Paralympics such as James Huckle and Anne Strike. We have probably the finest sports Leisurezone in the country, run by a non-profit making trust, which is another example of the big society. However, we still have the problem of obesity.
As my hon. Friend set out, Harlow is not alone in having such problems. Over the past 13 years, the United Kingdom has seen an unprecedented rise in obesity, especially in childhood obesity. The proportion of children aged two to 10 who were overweight or obese increased from 22% in 1995 to 28% in 2003. If the number of obese children continues to rise, such children will have a shorter life expectancy than their parents do.
My constituency of Harlow has significant challenges of its own. Sadly, by the time that Harlow children finish primary school, one in three is overweight; and one in five has the most challenging weight problems and is considered obese. Harlow has the highest such figures for any of the 12 district councils in Essex. I mention that not to criticise anyone—I am proud of my constituency and residents, and I do not want to cause offence—but because such problems cannot be swept under the carpet.
Clearly, some of the obesity problem is down to parenting, but it is also down to the McDonald’s culture that we live in. We do not even have to get out of the car these days; stopping off for fast food is so much easier than going to the supermarket and having to cook ingredients from scratch. I have a confession to make: I happen to love McDonald’s. As for most people, it is a treat, providing value for money and affordable meals. It has made progress, with the preparation of chicken salads and so on. The problem is when people eat there regularly, as if it were an extension of their kitchen.
The second reason for the obesity problems is the big retailers and food companies. At an all-party group meeting with Kellogg’s, I asked why all its cereals have so much sugar—cornflakes, or whatever they might be. The people from Kellogg’s said that some of the company’s cereals did not have so much sugar, and that it has non-sugar brands. However, we never see those non-sugar brands advertised or displayed prominently. As with everyone else, I go to the supermarket, but I would not have a clue about what a non-sugar cereal from Kellogg’s is, and yet I would know about its cornflakes and the rest, because those are the ones advertised.
Schools have made a lot of progress with their meals, following the media campaigns of recent years. Jamie Oliver, who has been mentioned, was successful partly because he was not the man or woman from Whitehall, although there is always the risk of bureaucracy when we deal with such things. I have a short anecdote on that subject. I visited a school in my constituency that wanted to give fresh fruit to its children every day. Instead of being able to buy it from the greengrocer down the road, the school had to order it through a centralised fruit planning system set up by the bureaucracy. A fruit co-ordinator was needed, to count the number of pieces of fruit, and how much was eaten and left. That shows the ludicrousness of what happens when big government gets in the way.
Why does Harlow have a unique problem? There are many reasons for general obesity, but they do not explain the specific problems in my constituency. The truth is that the tale in Harlow is of two towns. In many ways, it is an ambitious and enterprising place, with a culture of hard work. We have more than 2,500 private businesses, which makes us one of the most entrepreneurial towns in Essex, but according to the latest comprehensive study in 2007, Harlow also has housing estates with pockets of some of the worst deprivation and poverty not just in the region, but in England as a whole. That impacts on everything: homelessness, unemployment, literacy and numeracy, family breakdown, crime, and of course health. Obesity is just one symptom of the broken society, but is that because of poverty, or educational poverty?
When it comes to solutions for obesity, it is fair to say that big or grand Government diet schemes do not work. Television adverts a few years ago urged us to eat fruit and said that it was wrong to have a bottle of wine with dinner. Many parts of the UK are still awash with NHS adverts covering the landscape with the same advice. In 2009, the Food Standards Agency—a quango that survived the bonfire—announced a scheme to encourage restaurants to give calorie counts beside each dish. The Department of Health has told us that we are all eating too much saturated fat, but despite all those worthy initiatives and their cost for taxpayers, obesity has gone up and up.
I am a Conservative because I believe in choice, freedom and the right of individuals to make their own decisions. Big state or “nanny-knows-best” programmes usually cost a lot, and do not achieve what they are intended to achieve, however noble they are. One thing that sticks in my mind about the Jamie Oliver success is that parents came to the school and tried to thrust fried Mars bars through the gate. The reason was partly lack of education, but also resentment at being told what to do by the big state. They were the parents, and they wanted to decide what to do with their own children.
People are not chess pieces to move around a board. We cannot design a Government scheme that will magically repair people’s lives, but I accept that we must not abandon people. The solutions must come from the communities and neighbourhoods that we live in. That is an old idea, but it has been given fresh impetus by the big society reforms.
We have some remarkable sporting groups in Harlow, which are very popular. They are run by volunteers and social entrepreneurs, who know how to stretch a few hundred pounds to have the greatest impact with as little bureaucracy as possible. Such big society groups need more support. If we diverted just 1% of the sin taxes on cigarettes—around £209 million a year, based on 2010 figures—and if the same were applied to alcopops, excessively fatty foods and high-sugar products aimed at children, and that money was then funnelled into the big society bank, the Big Lottery Fund or local funds and ring-fenced specifically for smaller grass-roots charities, that would really make a difference. It would transform childhood obesity. That incentive could work in many ways. Supermarket vouchers that are currently used for school equipment could also fund sports charities in the community.
Community support officers on the Berecroft estate in Harlow have a regular Saturday football game with local children, and organise it with the Berecroft residents association. All they need is a few hundred pounds to connect their floodlights to mains electricity. Small amounts of money can make a huge difference, and millions of pounds are not always needed, because small community groups are best at fighting obesity. Another example is Harlow gymnastic club. It has many members, and the cost of joining is very small. It has changed the lives of countless young people and those with significant health problems, but it struggles to access funding because it is not part of any grand Government diet scheme.
I have often said that, if the big society, or even the big-boned society, is to work, we must build the little society. That is why I urge the Minister to focus on sustainable funding for smaller, grass-roots charities, as well as national organisations.
Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
I join the congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Mary Macleod) on her contribution to the debate, which is important. The problem has reached such a level that we cannot ignore the emerging evidence. I am pleased that we have extended the debate beyond eating to education, diet, labelling and aspiration. I shall dwell a little on my area of interest—physical activity—as other hon. Members have done.
Another issue that has emerged in our debate is the problem of being overweight, in addition to the more technical issue of obesity. Exhibit A is a document from the NHS highlighting the number of overweight children in the four-to-five and 10-to-11 age groups between 2006 and 2009. I shall not go through all the figures, but they show that the problem has risen consistently in the overweight and obese categories. Exhibit B is a helpful response to my parliamentary question to the Minister. It highlights the fact that Government spending on obesity rose from £9 million in 2008-09 to the £36.8 million that is projected for 2010-11. If ever there was an example of the necessity of re-examining the ratio of expenditure to results, that is surely it.
I want to dwell a little on my debate in this Chamber in December 2010 on outdoor learning. It was directed at the Department for Education. Today’s debate, thanks to my hon. Friend, highlights the fact that obesity is probably an issue for every Department, not least the Treasury. A point that I tried to make in the earlier debate was that evidence, not just opinion, is emerging of genuine behavioural improvement in children who are exposed to outdoor learning, which is outdoor education as distinct from outdoor entertainment, which I fear is what some people think it is.
There are encouraging signs regarding school exclusions and the behaviour of children in school when they are exposed to outdoor learning, and there are considerable health benefits, as hon. Members have said, particularly in food sourcing and preparation. Underpinning all that is the critical evidence that I suspect is more relevant now than it has ever been that a massive national saving can be made from investing in the project to reduce obesity, instead of seeing it simply as an expense that we cannot currently afford.
I tried to raise a distressing point during the debate back in December. There is enthusiasm for engaging in outdoor learning, and 86% of children and parents want it, but at the same time 76% of teachers are turning down the opportunity to undertake outdoor learning because of concerns about health and safety risks associated with such trips. However, the evidence shows that there are very few health and safety risks; in fact, risk is low, and the return for teacher, pupil and parent is very high.
I listened with great interest to my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon). He talked about the balance to be struck between being libertarian and adopting a hands-off approach to the problem, as well as the seriousness of the situation and what it requires us to do. I want to suggest some scenarios to the Minister, although not necessarily with a view to her coming up with the answers now or requiring her to state on the record what the Government propose. The examples come from my own experience as a parent of two young children aged 11 and nine, very much in the category that is most susceptible to the habits of the 21st century.
If we are serious about this issue, are we content that in April last year alone, 53 million new computer games were launched on to the open market? Are we satisfied by the fact that access to junk food has never been higher than it is this decade? Are we aware how commonplace advertisements for junk food are on children’s television? Are we satisfied by the fact that one incentive to go to a fast food outlet is that of receiving free toys with a meal? My children would be appalled if they heard me say that because one of the greatest incentives for them is what comes with the meal that they get through the car window in a drive-through—I am trying hard to not mention any brand names.
[Nadine Dorries in the Chair]
Are we aware of the extent to which children, particularly those under sixth-form age, go to the local chippy for lunch when they are at school, rather than eating something healthier? Do we know what is in the school lunch boxes that are provided with great care and attention by parents who often have considerable financial difficulties or other stresses?
In healthy schools where a lot of the kids will eat meat and two veg as part of their daily diet, those who bring a packed lunch do not have access to that good food. Let me put in a little plug for Pembrokeshire county council. It has a fantastic school dinner service—I think it is so good that it should be compulsory—and it is free. Are we as a nation satisfied with the propensity of supersize options, where one pays an extra 50p and receives 50% more food? Under current circumstances, and given the statistics that underpin the debate, is that a satisfactory situation?
Finally, is it not a little disingenuous that some of our major sporting events are sponsored by crisp makers and chocolate manufacturers? Is that not like having the Silk Cut London marathon? Are we not turning a blind eye to what such sponsorship means and how it legitimises in the eyes of children not particularly healthy foodstuffs, simply because they are attached to a major sporting event? I do not have the answers to those questions although perhaps other hon. Members will. I am not sure, however, that we can continue to turn away completely from the reality of the problem that is emerging.
The great achievement of this debate—I hope hon. Members will continue to raise other points—is that we are eventually recognising the social, cultural and economic cost to the nation of obesity and overweight children. As other hon. Members have said, the issue crosses all Departments. It is not about “curing” children—not the most appropriate expression—but about early intervention and prevention. I suggest to the Minister, just as I suggested to the hon. Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather) in the debate last December, that it is not about what we as a nation can afford to do, but about whether we can afford not to address the situation. Evidence clearly shows the damage done by obesity, not only to the prospects of our children, but to those of the nation.
David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Mary Macleod) on securing this crucial debate, and my other hon. Friends who have spoken.
I was in the Mall on Friday for what everybody agreed was a most wonderful royal wedding. However, my heart sank when I saw a very large, hugely overweight man hanging on to a railing for dear life and panting. He may have had a problem caused by steroids or something else, but it is most likely that he was obese. I thought how unhappy he must be with his life—my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) touched on the issue of happiness. One point we must get across to people who are obese is that they can be much happier if they overcome obesity.
My hon. Friends have made many points, but I want to touch on three issues. First, I want to look at the Change4Life programme and the changes that the Minister proposes to make. Secondly, I would like to say something about the impact of high-energy drinks that contain a lot of sugar and caffeine. Thirdly, I will speak about sizes of portions and clothes.
I will start by referring to the October 2007 Government report, “Tackling Obesities: Future Choices”, on what the human body is designed to do. It points out, with classic understatement, that our biological system is,
“not well adapted to a changing world, where the pace of technological progress and lifestyle change has outstripped that of human evolution.”
Many years ago in this Chamber—the old Grand Committee Room—I listened to a debate one evening, instigated by the food and health forum, that I have never forgotten. The speaker was a professor of nutrition and he said, “Look, in a nutshell, if you want to stay healthy, remember that we have not really evolved since the stone age; we are essentially stone-age people in the 20th century.” He said that if we want to be healthy, we should live like stone-age people. We should walk most of the time and run occasionally, eat berries and vegetables in season, catch fish when possible, and eat meat rarely. I was struck by that speech. Generally, our health problems arrive when we deviate from that simple model.
Last week, The Daily Telegraph looked at the problem of obesity as it affects parents. It pointed out that British men are among the fattest in Europe and that according to the World Health Organisation, we do less exercise as a nation than almost every other country in the world. In another article, I read that the World Health Organisation believes that in the regions of Europe, the east Mediterranean and the Americas, over 50% of women are overweight.
We have an enormous problem. All my hon. Friends have drawn on statistics. We tend to follow what happens in America, so we should be aware of what is happening in that country, where the problem is greater—obesity rates are 36% among women and 32% among men. The number of obese men in England has doubled since 1993, and the number of obese women has risen by half.
My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) referred eloquently to issues in his constituency, but in my constituency we do not have the problems that affect many others. For example, the prevalence of obesity among reception-age children in the east midlands is just under 10%, and for year six children by region it is 18%. In Hinckley and Bosworth, the figures are smaller at just over 7% and under 16% respectively. Those are still enormous figures, however, and we must put that in the context of my original point about happiness. How many of those children are very unhappy with their lives?
The Minister inherited the Change4Life programme from the previous Government and I hope she will say a few things about the changes that she proposes to make. As I understand it, the funding for that programme is to change and she will be looking for contributions from the food industry. That may be a good thing, but I would like reassurances that the food industry will not be driving the agenda. I know that she has already said that we will not legislate further to bring in a range of new standards, but I think the quid pro quo is that we must know that the food industry will be very supportive of measures that do exactly what has been suggested and ensure that we see a reduction in sugar. There is far too much sugar in cereal, for example. I suggest to my hon. Friends that if they really want a cereal that is sugar-free, they should make it themselves; it is not difficult. I look to the Minister for support on that issue.
My next point relates to high-energy drinks. I have not heard a word about high-energy drinks this morning; I think that that is a forgotten area. Children and adults are consuming drinks that have two or three times the recommended caffeine level and a very high sugar content. If people have far too much caffeine, they get behavioural disorders. It is very bad for them. It increases their heart rate, and there have been instances of children going to hospital in such circumstances. It is extremely dangerous.
I recommend that the Minister look at the research conducted by Johns Hopkins university, which concluded that energy drinks should be labelled with highly visible health warnings aimed at young people. I will not quote from the study extensively, but it based its recommendations on research that discovered that certain drinks contained as much as 14 times more caffeine than the average can of cola. That is the same as drinking seven cups of coffee.
While we are on the subject of coffee, is it not extraordinary that we are now being invited by coffee shops to drink half-pint mugs of coffee? Have we taken leave of our senses? Have we all gone mad? If I stop for a cup of coffee with a friend, I often order the smallest cup of coffee and split it into two mugs because it is too much. In the 19th century, coffee cups were tiny. That is another issue that we must address.
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)
Drinking half a pint of coffee would be one thing. Is not the problem with coffee shops that often people are also drinking coffee with cream, sugar and additives? Sometimes with these half-pint cups of coffee, people would get fewer calories in an ordinary meal.
David Tredinnick
I absolutely agree. What is going on in coffee shops is a debate in itself, but coffee used to be taken in very small quantities. It was not intended that we should have so much caffeine in our system.
My last point is about size—the size of portions and the sizing of clothes. I was very touched when, on the day we came back from the recess last week, one of our colleagues came into the Chamber and my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow and one or two others were saying how slim and how wonderful he looked—he had better be nameless because I did not talk to him about the fact that I might refer to him in this debate. He said, “Yes, I’ve lost a lot of weight,” and I think that it was my hon. Friend who said, “How did you do it?” He said, “I’m eating half as much food as I used to eat.” He is eating half as much food—it is not rocket science.
How about suggesting to people that sometimes they do not need to eat as much food? For those who have a faith, may I remind them that gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins? This wonderful stone-age body that we have knows when it has had enough food. The problem is that we override the system too much. We are not taught moderation. Instead of trying to eat smaller portions, we tend to overeat and eat very large meals. We are not helped by the restaurant industry and the food industry, which are constantly trying to pile our plates higher and higher, with triple or quadruple deckers and vast portions. The same applies to children’s food. That is a problem.
On the sizes of clothes, I have some reliable research from someone well known to me. In the mid-1970s, a lady weighing 7 stone with a 24-inch waist would buy a skirt in a size 10; in 2011, the same person, whose waist has increased by three quarters of an inch, buys a size 8 or 6 because the size 10 is far too large. The industry has created a completely new range of sizes to accommodate the population. The largest size used to be size 18; it is now 20 to 22. People who are buying a particular size, thinking that they are a certain weight, are actually much larger than they think they are. That is very unsatisfactory.
Some of my hon. Friends touched on sport. Sport is fantastic; it is so important, and we have the Olympics coming to this country next year. Obese children do not play much sport. They cannot because they cannot get on the pitch—they are too big—so they miss on that wonderful opportunity. With the Olympics round the corner, surely this is the best time to take every possible measure and all steps in the Minister’s power to reduce obesity among children.
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Mary Macleod) on calling this very important debate. I also congratulate you, Ms Dorries. I am sure that you have chaired many debates, but this is the first time that I have spoken under your distinguished chairmanship.
When we discuss childhood obesity, we should be clear that we are talking not about how children look but about how they feel, because one of the problems with debates about body size is that they can have an element of judgmentalism, which makes the issue more difficult and emotional for people. I think that we can all agree, as a Chamber, that everyone’s child is loveable and everyone’s child is beautiful. We do not want to get into being judgmental about body size, because the other side of the coin from childhood obesity is childhood eating disorders—particularly among girls, but also, increasingly, among boys.
I want to touch on the introductory remarks made by the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth about the origins of childhood obesity. She talked about parenting. I do not disagree with anything that she said, but let us stand back and realise that we live in a world that has changed since the days when Nye Bevan set up the national health service. At that time, fewer than one in 10 households had a television and fewer than a third owned a car. Nowadays, 98% of households have at least one television, if not two or three, and 19.5 million households own a car.
When the NHS was set up, the only form of processed food available was spam. Now, there is an infinite variety of processed food; it is possible to eat it three times a day, with all the problems of trans fats, added sugar and so on that that involves. It is also the case that when the NHS was set up, many more people did manual labour. We are looking at a world that has changed. It is not just that people are making different personal choices; they live in a much less mobile, much less active, much more sedentary world.
When I was a child, I was not as sporty as some of the Government Members present, but in the summer holidays I would have my breakfast and then go out and play all day. Children played out all day. Their parents did not worry about where they were; they just knew that they were playing out. Children played down back alleys and in other people’s gardens. We might or might not come home for lunch, but we came home for tea. I am a parent myself—my son is now 19—and I would not have dreamt of letting him play out on the streets of London. Whereas parents 30 or 40 years ago thought nothing of letting their children play out unsupervised, nowadays parents feel much happier if their children are at home watching television or playing a computer game. They think that they are being good parents and they are certainly less fearful parents.
When I was a child, children routinely walked to school. Now, I see children driven to school over much shorter distances than I used to cover when I walked to school. Again, those parents think that they are being good parents. Perhaps my family was not as grand as those of some hon. Members, but when I was a child, we always sat down for a family meal together. We waited for my father to come home from work and we all sat down and ate as a family. There was not the snacking that my son routinely did when he was at home. Our world is very different from Nye Bevan’s.
Even over the past 20 or 30 years, however, the world has changed. People’s notions of what it means to be a good parent have been attenuated, certainly in big cities, although things may be different in Shropshire and more rural areas. In big cities, people think being a good parent means having their child safely at home. They think it means that their child is never hungry and that there is always food in the fridge to feed them. They think it means that they must feed their child the most heavily advertised and expensive products. The issue is not, therefore, just one of individual choices; we live in a changing society with changing ideas about parenthood.
Altogether, this is a more sedentary and materialistic society. As Members have said, even if children are active at school, that activity will stop when they leave. That is particularly true of girls. There are also the attractions of television. When I was a child, there was no daytime television, so children could not sit at home in the daytime watching television. We were out in the garden, on the swing or up the park; we were chasing people up and down, shouting at our brother and doing all the things that helped us work off the calories bit by bit.
We live in a changed world, which is part of the reason why we have seen a gradual increase in children leading more sedentary lifestyles, eating more processed food and snacking on processed food between meals. When I was a child, the only form of fast food was fish and chips or food from a Wimpy bar. I remember begging my father to take me to a Wimpy bar, which I thought was the height of sophistication and glamour. There was no question of children routinely stopping off at some fast-food shop on the way home from school or having fast food between meals; we lived in a very different world.
What can the Government do in a world that has changed and become commodified—one in which the average British child recognises nearly 400 brand names? We have touched on a number of issues that I am interested to hear the Minister talk about. In particular, there is the issue of what happens in school. As we have heard, one important thing is that children can learn to cook in school and can be taught about good nutrition. There is also the issue of the sort of school meals that are made available. There was some resistance to Jamie Oliver-type school meals, particularly when they were introduced at secondary school level, but introducing children to healthy food at primary school will set up habits that see them through life.
There is also the issue of food labelling. I would be interested to hear what the Minister has to say about traffic-light labelling, which is the easiest for mothers in places such as Hackney to understand. Mothers there are not going to read a label or to try to do the sums to work out how many calories there are in a packet of food if there are 60 calories per 100 grams. However, a traffic-light label in red, yellow and green is easy for them to understand.
I will be interested to hear the Minister explain how the commissioning model of health care in public health will engage with these issues. I am particularly interested to hear what she says about the extent to which Change4Life is working with the food industry. As one Member said, we might as well have the Silk Cut marathon, but I have an open mind and I am waiting to hear what the Minister has to say.
Childhood obesity is about how our children feel, not how they look. If somebody was a little chubby when I was a child, people used to say, “Oh, she’ll grow out of it,” but 70% of obese children stay obese well into adult life, with all the outcomes we are so familiar with in terms of heart disease, diabetes, stroke and blood pressure.
The striking thing about child obesity in 2011 is the extent to which it is a problem of poverty in the United Kingdom and the United States. Historically, it and the gout that went with it were problems that rich people had. Increasingly, however, heroes in popular culture in America and elsewhere are strikingly obese, which never used to be the case. Obesity is a problem of poverty; it is about a lack of information and a lack of access to a healthy diet.
We have heard about the increase in the numbers and about the real danger that significant numbers of today’s children will live shorter lives than their parents and spend their lives in poor health. We as a political class, and the Government, cannot simply leave childhood obesity as a matter of parental or children’s choice. Of course, choice is a big issue, but we have to set out a policy framework, whether it relates to schools, labelling or schemes such as Change4Life.
We have to set out a policy framework that makes things easier for parents, who are under more pressure than ever from commodification and materialism, and who are more frightened than ever about simply letting their children out to play. We have to set out a policy framework that makes it easier for parents, including Members of the House, to make the right decisions and to determine not only how their children look now, but how their health will be in years to come.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anne Milton)
May I say what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries? I have not had the pleasure before. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Mary Macleod) on securing the debate. I thank her and other Members for their contributions. I noticed that the hon. Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown) stayed on from the previous debate because she was so riveted by my hon. Friend’s contribution. It is good to see that, because we perhaps do not see it as much as we would like in this Chamber.
My hon. Friend eloquently highlighted not only the scale of the problem and its costs in her constituency, but the individual consequences and the health impact. She was absolutely right, however, to say that this is not just a health issue, and if we need to get one thing across today, it is that. The Prime Minister set up a Cabinet Sub-Committee on Public Health because we need sign-up from all Departments. This is everybody’s business; it is about local government, education, transport and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, and it requires action on every level.
I was not in the country for the royal wedding on Friday, sadly, because I was attending a World Health Organisation conference in Moscow on non-communicable diseases. Along with smoking, alcohol and lack of exercise, obesity is one of the major issues facing the world, and it was interesting to hear some of the interesting ideas that are coming forward.
There is no doubt that tackling the problem of obesity, particularly in children, is key. The hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) was right to raise the associations between obesity and deprivation. Obesity was, and still is in some developing countries, a problem for wealthier people, but we are now seeing a switch, with obesity now being associated with deprivation.
My hon. Friend and other Members mentioned MEND. She also mentioned the importance of the Olympic legacy and food labelling, and I will deal with those points in my remarks.
As Members are aware, the Government published their public health White Paper last year. It set out the scale of the public health challenge ahead of us and the Government’s approach to improving health and well-being.
The hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington mentioned parenting, which involves some really complex issues. There is the issue of what constitutes a good parent. Am I not a good parent if my fridge is not full? The hon. Lady rightly touched on that. Am I not a good parent if I do not make my children clean their plate at every meal? My generation was brought up on the idea that what children do not eat one day, they have cold in their sandwiches for tea the next day. We need to approach such attitudes.
The White Paper signalled the Government’s commitment to addressing the current trend. This is not about just the governmental costs, but the social costs and the burden of disease. The latest figures show that 61% of adults and 28% of children aged between two and 10 in England are overweight or obese. Those figures are enormous. My hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth mentioned the publication of a report by the London assembly. We know that in her area nearly a quarter of children in year 6 are obese—one quarter, one out of every four children, is obese. The risks of being overweight include the increase of a range of diseases, such as heart disease and type 2 diabetes.
An analysis by the National Heart Forum has predicted that, by 2050, the number of people getting diabetes because of their weight will nearly double, and that those with heart disease caused by obesity will rise by 44%. Obese and overweight people place a significant burden on the NHS and the direct costs are estimated to be £4.2 billion. However, the indirect costs are massive, such as the impact of early death on families, poverty due to not being able to work, and so on.
The White Paper sets out our vision and general approach. There are three underlying principles. First is individual responsibility: we want to encourage people to take responsibility for their own health. My hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (David Tredinnick) commented on an anecdote about losing weight by eating less. That is old-fashioned and simple, but a message that we need to get across. It is about individual responsibility.
The second principle is working together, to which I have referred. That is about the problem being everybody’s business—every part of society, focusing on developing partnerships across the board, with third sector organisations, social enterprises and business. Everybody has a role to play. The third aspect is the role of local communities, about which we heard a lot from my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson), who talked about local initiatives and what can be done at that level.
We will publish before the summer a document on obesity, which will set out how we will tackle the matter in the new public health and NHS systems, and the role of key partners. The Department has recently held two events with key organisations involved in reducing obesity, to help develop the document. We will also consider comments from the consultation exercise on proposals for a public health outcomes framework, which has just come to an end. That framework includes two possible indicators relating to adults and children, to measure progress relating to obesity.
Experts from the Foresight team described the UK as having an “obesogenic environment”. That is probably right in many ways. There are a number of factors that drive people towards overweight and obesity. As I have said, it is clear that too many people eat too much and exercise too little, and are storing up big health problems. We all need to play our part. It is for local and central Government, business and other partners to make it easier for people, and remove the sort of barriers—mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon—which include irritating matters such as insuring minibuses to get people to sporting events.
The Government cannot compel people to eat less food. We can encourage people and make it easier for them to make better choices. There is already a lot of action under way to do that. Many products in the UK voluntarily provide front-of-pack nutrition labelling, which provides more information. The regulations surrounding front-of-pack labelling are an EU competence. The EU is not dragging its feet, but it is incredibly complicated to get all member states to sign.
We would like to see as light a regulatory burden as possible, to allow different member states to have different front-of-pack labels, because, as a number of hon. Members have said, all systems—guideline daily allowances are one example, traffic lights another—have upsides and downsides. Some can be difficult to understand and some can be misleading. We have all seen claims on the front of packets indicating low fat, but the sugar content is another problem staring one in the face. Indicating calories is attractive to some people but is a problem for those with an eating disorder and are underweight. We need maximum flexibility. Discussions are very active in the EU at the moment and we will start to see some suggestions coming forward.
The Change4Life programme is encouraging people to make simple changes: eating more fruit and vegetables, cutting down on fatty and sugary food and being more active. The national child measurement programme, started under the previous Government, provides feedback to parents about the weight status of their children, enabling them to take action where necessary. My hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth mentioned clothes sizing, which indicates that being fatter has become the norm. The child measurement programme is an important part of giving information to parents.
The Department has also been working with the Association of Convenience Stores to increase the availability of fresh fruit and vegetables in convenience stores across the country. That initiative has been expanding incredibly quickly. I recently had the pleasure of visiting a scheme. This development is particularly important for areas of high deprivation; convenience stores are often the first port of call for many to do their shopping. Some participating stores have seen a dramatic 47% increase in sales of fruit and vegetables.
As part of the public health responsibility deal, a number of organisations have made a series of pledges, which will provide better information to consumers about food. Let me make it clear that the Government are the only people to decide Government policy. However, the responsibility deal currently involves 180 organisations and businesses, and there are 19 collective pledges available online, which I urge hon. Members to view. The idea is to capitalise on the reach of many of these organisations—both businesses and voluntary bodies—so that we can tap into the unrealised potential of a wide range of resources that can promote healthier lifestyles and give people information.
Calorie labelling in out-of-home venues is intended to give information and has been quite successful. We have talked about the half-pint latte and a muffin. It is dramatic and astounding to discover that one has probably had the daily allowance just in a snack on the way to work.
We talked about physical activity. We are currently reviewing the chief medical officer’s guidelines, and are looking at evidence in relation to the health benefits of physical activity. There is also an important psychological benefit, because it makes one consider how one feels and what one is eating and doing, and to be more conscious of overall general physical and mental health.
While much of the focus is on preventing problems from arising, we are also working to meet the needs of those at most risk of becoming obese, including those who are already overweight. Weight management providers will continue to play a role in tackling obesity. In future, the move of public health into local councils is going to be an important and significant step.
I think it was my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon who mentioned playing in the street and street parties. Interestingly, when I was in Moscow last week, the Minister of Health for Columbia talked about a scheme they have there. On Sundays they close certain streets so that everybody can play in them. That is an outstanding idea. Before constituents e-mail to complain about their streets closing, I should say that I accept it would not work everywhere. It could, however, work in some places.
We have heard today of the huge opportunity for local action; we cannot work in silos any more. Government cannot tackle obesity alone and we want to work with the widest range of providers. Government can and must do their part, but we rely on the compliance of the public as individuals. We have to facilitate and help more people to want to lose weight and stay at a healthy weight. The truth is that no single solution will make a difference; the issue is about using all the ideas raised in this debate to turn round the supertanker. There is a tendency to refer to an epidemic, to suggest that it is something that happens to us. We are like—
Budget (Coventry)
(13 years, 7 months ago)
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Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
This is the first time, Ms Dorries, that I have been involved in a debate chaired by you; it is a pleasure to see you in the Chair.
Coventry has had a long and significant economic history, which continues to shape and influence the performance of the local economy and could provide the foundation for its growth. The steady waning of coal mining after the second world war, together with the more rapid decline of our motor industry in the 1970s and 1980s, hit Coventry particularly hard. Coventry’s economic output is now 8.5% lower than the national average, and for Nuneaton and Bedworth it is now 35% below the average, yet Warwick performs 17% better than the national average.
Since the millennium, Coventry has benefited from significant redevelopment and regeneration, and the public sector has been crucial in that process. Coventry has a particularly youthful age profile, and scores well above average in measures of economic adaptability. Rates of growth were increasing before the recession, which suggests that the structural change is largely complete. The city holds many competitive advantages for research and development, engineering and niche manufacturing. However, unemployment is a growing worry. The latest figures from the House of Commons Library reveal that Coventry has 10,324 unemployed job seekers, and things are likely to get worse as the year progresses.
Coventry is famous for making cars, but it is public sector workers who drive much of the local economy. As we know, Becta and the Qualifications and Curriculum Development Agency are being abolished. It may have seemed the easy option to get rid of these education quangos, but they employ a combined total of close to 800 people. Many are former teachers. The relocation of the QCDA cost the Government more than £44 million, and it came at a personal cost to many of the staff who relocated from London.
We cannot ignore the strain on the private sector. Friends Life, formerly Friends Provident, recently announced that it plans to close its offices in Coventry by the end of the first half of 2012. There are 428 jobs at stake, and staff will be badly affected. That brings total job losses in Coventry to around 3,000.
I turn to the scale of the grant reductions that Coventry faces. Because of the cuts, the city council is being forced by the Tory-led Government to cut as many as 500 posts over the next 18 months. The amount of money that the council spends in the local economy will also be dramatically reduced. That, too, will have an impact on council staff. The front-loading of cuts means that staff losses will be required in the early stages of the spending cuts. That will affect families throughout Coventry. The overall impact is that Coventry city council is expected to lose about £45 million over the next few years.
The cuts will have an impact on the economy of the west midlands. They will have a significant knock-on impact on local businesses and employment in the region. We can see what is happening in other sectors as the cuts and reforms begin to bite. For example, cuts of more than 20% to the West Midlands police equate to 2,500 jobs.
There are two parts to the Department for Communities and Local Government cuts for Coventry council. It will lose formula grant of more than £19 million, and specific grants in excess of £17 million. The city council will not be able to continue providing services at the same level. Because of the latter cuts, there will be far fewer grants and they will have a lower overall value. It is a matter of great concern that many grant streams will end.
The vulnerable people of Coventry will be hit a number of times by the Government’s deficit reduction plan. Pensioners were dealt a blow by Government when the winter fuel payment was slashed by up to £100. How can those who are disabled or who live in care homes take part in the Government’s big society once the mobility component of the disability living allowance has been removed? Has the Minister considered the effects of reduced local government budgets on the cost per placement of patients on independent care providers such as Southern Cross? Notwithstanding the burden on the NHS, local hospitals will be expected to deliver far-reaching reforms to patient care as their budget decreases and demand increases. How can the Minister justify removing the provision of face-to-face legal advice for the poorer residents of Coventry in favour of a cheaper phone line?
I am deeply concerned about local provisions for our young people. Building Schools for the Future is to be abolished. That will result in a loss of £300 million to the local economy in construction, which can be added to the cuts in the council’s budget We await the James review—it has been a long time coming—but that is of no comfort to schools that are in desperate need of repair. From this year, the Connexions careers service will operate on a budget that is more than 70% smaller than in April 2010. The service gives young people the skills and confidence to get into the workplace. Its downsizing will doubtless contribute to the high youth unemployment that the region has experienced.
The coalition Government admit that Sure Start will suffer real-terms cuts. Ministers refuse to deny that this will result in the closure of Sure Start centres. However, Sure Start centres in Coventry will lose nearly £600,000, which will be a great blow to young families. Services for young people face other financial pressures. Coventry’s children, learning and young people’s department has announced a further £1.2 million loss because of the ending of the 5% standards fund.
Crucial retention funds that the council had relied upon will not be continued in the next financial year. The largest proportion of JSA claimants in Coventry are aged between 18 and 24. Given what I said about the Coventry’s youthful profile, there is no reason why our young people should not be given the opportunities that they need as it will strengthen Coventry’s regeneration.
All these changes will have an irreversible effect on the economic growth of the region. The leader of Coventry city council estimates that up to £25 million will be taken out of the local economy. The public and private sectors will not be able to invest in the regeneration of the region and its infrastructure.
There is an urgent need to address infrastructure issues. We need an increase in train travel between Coventry and Nuneaton, and Coventry and Leamington. The go-ahead for a new station at the Ricoh arena is vital to Coventry’s economy. Equally, we are waiting for the Friargate development to go ahead; again, it could have a big impact in revitalising the city centre. Revitalising the city will obviously create jobs.
Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab)
I raise the question of what I fear is the impending sale of the strategically important land at Ansty. If a developer gets hold of that land, the possibility is that it will sit on it, waiting for the maximum return. That will probably be through housing rather than what it was meant for, which was job creation in the high-tech manufacturing sector.
Mr Cunningham
My right hon. Friend anticipates me, as I was just coming on to that.
The abolition of RDA funding means that there is little to lever in private sector investment for large-scale redevelopment projects. Although the prospect of 10,000 jobs in the enterprise zone is welcome, questions arise on the implications for other employment sites such as those at Ansty and Browns lane. In answer to my right hon. Friend, I am sure that he will remember, as will my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson), that we lobbied hard to get the Ansty site as a technological centre, and the city and the west midlands invested a lot of money in it—if my memory serves me correctly, the investment for the infrastructure was somewhere in the region of £5.9 million. It is vital that the Minister clears up the future of that site. A lot of taxpayers’ money has been invested in it and some companies are operating from it at the moment. How does the development of that site square up with the proposal to create 10,000 jobs at Coventry airport? Although my hon. Friends and I do not deny that such jobs are needed, we need the issue to be sorted out one way or another. The public in Coventry want to know why some of those jobs cannot be located on the Ansty site. My right hon. Friend, therefore, raises a vital point, which is of interest to a lot of people, particularly those in Coventry.
My next point relates to the impact of the Localism Bill. Local people seek assurances from Government that there will be no fire sale of employment sites in need of overhaul, such as the Ansty and Browns lane sites, to help address the deficit. I have dealt with the Ansty site, but of equal importance is the Browns lane site, which was once a manufacturing site for Jaguar in Coventry—let me just say in passing that my hon. Friends and I are glad to see that Jaguar is reinvesting in the west midlands and in Coventry.
The Localism Bill also applies to the Coventry airport site, which is a proposed enterprise zone. Some major environmental issues will arise from the development of that site and the Severn Trent site. People will be testing the Localism Bill to see whether the public will have a major say in any development initiatives. Many people in Coventry are worried about the use of greenbelt land for example. We will soon find out whether the Government mean what they say about localism.
The Government need to address the balance of housing and employment. The highest rates of unemployment are generally found in the neighbourhoods that were based around the mining and manufacturing industries of the past. That highlights the key role that places can play in creating and sustaining unemployment. Areas housing large numbers of unemployed, low-skilled and vulnerable residents cannot generally attract business investment.
I will finish here because I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West wants to speak and we obviously want to give the Minister time to answer our points.
Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab)
We are very grateful to you, Ms Dorries, for your chairmanship of this important debate on the present economic situation in Coventry. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) on securing this debate and I thank Mr Speaker for granting it.
I should like to develop a few of the points made by my hon. Friend. I want to draw the Government’s attention to them as they contribute to the highly unsatisfactory situation regarding jobs and the prospects for jobs in Coventry at the moment.
My first point relates to the review of the schools building programme. The situation in Coventry is particularly bad. All building was stopped and none was allowed to go forward. Even two schemes in my own constituency—Woodlands school and President Kennedy school—that were on the point of signature were refused. The Minister of State, Department for Education, the hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb) is aware that at present the main building of Woodlands school is propped up by scaffolding, and has been for the past two years. What family is likely to want their child to go to a school that is propped up by scaffolding and might collapse at any minute? That scheme should have been given the go-ahead because the school is not fit for present-day purposes. I know that such buildings are the subject of the current capital review that is going on. We are approaching the end of the first year of this coalition Government and the situation is no longer satisfactory.
Similarly, development at the President Kennedy school, which was on the brink of getting the go-ahead, was suddenly stopped. Again, it is a totally unsatisfactory situation. There are a number of other such schools. My hon. Friend mentioned others in his own constituency and in Coventry North East. The matter must be brought to head in the near future.
My hon. Friend mentioned the regional fund, which has been slashed by 70% in Coventry. Such a cut will have a major impact on the level of activity and on the number of schemes that can be carried out with Government support. Many projects could go ahead if we had quicker and easier funding for them.
Let me draw the Minister’s attention to transport. Not so long ago, we had a debate in this Chamber with the Minister of State, Department for Transport, the right hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs Villiers) in which we tried to thrash out alternatives to the massive High Speed 2 programme. Some £18 billion would need to be spent on the London to Birmingham route. What needs to be done urgently and would hugely contribute to employment activity in the Birmingham and Coventry area is simple four-tracking, which has to be done on the London to Birmingham route. Such a scheme is supported by Centro and local experts who say that it could make a huge contribution not just to employment but to the development of the region by bringing in activity and easing transport between Coventry and Birmingham, which is a very congested area of the west midlands. That scheme is not going ahead now because it has been earmarked to be done in five years’ time—if we are lucky—as part of an £18 billion build. It could be done under a rail package 2 proposal, which has been put up by the same consultants who are doing the HS2 work for the Government, at a fraction of the cost. With many areas under blight, many Conservative MPs in the south-east share our view that we should invest in the areas through which the rail already travels.
Similarly, there is the issue of the Knuckle project, which is the rail link between Coventry and the Ricoh stadium. It goes further north to Nuneaton and further south from Coventry. Again, it is local and regional and could get the go-ahead. We know that it has not been killed by the present Government; it is still there and is still a possibility. The project is estimated at about £18 million, which is chickenfeed compared with the scale of the investments that we are considering in other areas.
The schools schemes and the rail programme could be given the go-ahead and they would make a tremendous difference to the blight that we otherwise face in Coventry.
The last time we went through a similarly bad period was in the early 1980s. The car industry and the machine tool industry collapsed. Virtually all the mechanical engineering sectors that were located in Coventry collapsed. There was nothing much left at the end of that period and we still have not recovered. Although investment and development continued to take place in the country, much of it bypassed Coventry. We face the same problem again and it will affect those sectors that came in to replace manufacturing, notably the public sector. Becta and the QCDA have been closed. The council is announcing huge cuts. The whole public sector that came in to replace manufacturing—not much else came in apart from transport and delivery—is now facing the same sort of cuts at a time of severe recession and once again, Coventry will be pushed down.
I realise that time is limited and I will not go on any more. I have listed a number of specific projects that could be undertaken in the context of what the Government have available now for regional development. I urge the Minister, who has no direct responsibility for any of the projects, to push her colleagues who are responsible at least to consider them.
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine Greening)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for what must be the first time Mr Dorries.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) on tabling and securing an important debate. It is important not only for Coventry itself but more broadly. I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) who spoke, as did the hon. Member for Coventry South, with great passion about the challenges facing Coventry. In the time available to me, I will try to address a number of wide-ranging points that the hon. Members made.
The hon. Member for Coventry South is right to make the points that he did, in the sense that there is not going to be one thing that helps to regenerate and grow the Coventry economy, and create jobs. We need a broader strategy in place to ensure that we are successful in helping Coventry. As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, the main backdrop to the policies that the Government are pursuing is the huge budget deficit that we inherited, which we must tackle. In his speech, he talked about young people; the worst thing that we could do for young people is to pass on to them that debt of the money that our generation has spent, so that they can pay it off. We have an obligation to get our finances back in order so that young people do not face that additional challenge as they enter the economy.
We need to tackle the deficit. However, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out, we have also got to increase economic growth and rebalance the economy across all regions of the UK. I think that he would recognise, as many of us do, that too much of the last economic boom, which took place roughly between 2000 and 2007, was enjoyed by London and the south-east, and not enough of it was enjoyed by cities and regions outside the south-east. We must ensure that, as we generate and create the right ingredients for the next period of growth in our economy, that growth is enjoyed by precisely those communities that can benefit most from it, in terms of jobs, skills and opportunities.
The key aspect at the last Budget was not only economic growth itself but ensuring that we had some plans to stimulate that growth. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that we made a series of proposals at the last Budget to create a model for more sustainable and more balanced growth, including in Coventry and more broadly in the west midlands.
As hon. Members have made clear, Coventry faces some difficult challenges, but it remains a significant contributor to the regional economy in the west midlands. As has also been mentioned, during the last 20 years Coventry has rebalanced its economy somewhat by moving towards more high-tech manufacturing and business services. The reforms set out in the plan for growth, and indeed in the broader Budget, will give businesses and individuals in the region, including in Coventry, a real boost. Those reforms include cutting corporation tax from this month, so that it will be 23% by 2014; increasing the personal allowance by £630 next year, following the increase of £1,000 last month, which will take 25,000 people in the west midlands out of tax altogether; and, of course, building on the success of the manufacturing technology centre in Coventry and in other cities, by creating high-value manufacturing technology innovation centres. They will be the first of an elite network of centres that will enable businesses to access state-of-the-art equipment and technical skills.
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that a further opportunity for Coventry—one that I am sure is already being investigated in the city—is the enterprise zones policy. The west midlands already has two of the enterprise zones that were announced at the Budget. He will be aware of the zone in Birmingham and Solihull, created by the local enterprise partnership, and of the zone in the black country. During the coming months, I hope that Coventry itself will submit a proposal to become part of an enterprise zone.
Mr Jim Cunningham
Can the Minister talk to her colleagues in other Departments about one issue that I do not think her Department—the Treasury—actually handles? That issue is the future of Ansty. A list of sites has been published. In particular, we are talking about Advantage West Midlands, which is the regional development agency. On that list of sites, Ansty is not mentioned, so we do not know what is happening with it. That is one of the points that I made in my speech. A lot of taxpayers’ money has been invested in the site and a lot of effort has been put in by myself and my colleagues to get it developed. We and the public want to know what exactly will happen to it. I do not expect the Minister to answer me directly today, but perhaps she could go away and consider that matter.
Justine Greening
One of the things that the hon. Gentleman has been able to do very effectively in his speech is to raise a number of issues—such as transport and infrastructure, which I will come on to shortly—that are not necessarily a concern of the Treasury, but that doubtless have been recognised by the Departments concerned. I will ensure that I pass back his specific comments about the Ansty site to my colleagues in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and I will write to him in more detail about that specific site.
As I was saying, enterprise zones are another opportunity to bring some genuine benefits to the hon. Gentleman’s area. In his speech on the Budget debate and again today, he has expressed the hope that Coventry will benefit from inclusion in an enterprise zone in the future. I welcome his enthusiasm for the enterprise zone policy. Of course, the Coventry and Warwickshire local enterprise partnership is welcome to bid to be part of the second tranche of 10 enterprise zones. Regarding timelines, I have no doubt that his local LEP will be working on its proposal already. We expect to take some decisions within Government in the summer about where the next tranche of enterprise zones will be. We do not intend to spend a long time making those decisions. We are aware of the urgent need to get on with this policy, because we believe that it can make a real difference.
The Government have also established the regional growth fund, which is worth £1.4 billion overall, to help to grow a private sector-led economy in England. Of course, Coventry will benefit directly from the first round of awards from that fund, with Jaguar Land Rover having won support for a project to undertake design engineering for a new small common vehicle platform that will be developed in part in its Whitley centre.
There have been other signals that the private sector sees Coventry as being “open for business” and that it has real confidence in the future of the city. Only last week, it was announced that the overhaul of Coventry airport will go ahead, creating new infrastructure and business opportunities in a £250 million development.
The second round of the regional growth fund, in which we are aiming to allocate the remaining £950 million of funding available, is now open for bidding. The second round closes on 1 July and I look forward to seeing many more exciting proposals, including from businesses in Coventry.
Hon. Members have raised concerns about local government funding. As I have already made clear, the last Government left an appalling financial mess behind them and we have a moral obligation to ensure that we pay down our debts as quickly as possible. Tough decisions have been necessary across all areas of public spending. Local government, which makes up a quarter of all public expenditure, has its part to play in that process.
The Government have delivered a challenging but fair settlement for local government to ensure that the most vulnerable communities are protected. Although financial settlements have been tight, local authorities will still receive £29 billion in grant next year. It is also worth noting that formula grant in Coventry will be nearly £500 in 2011-12, which is more than twice what it will be in west Oxfordshire, precisely reflecting the higher levels of need in Coventry. I know that Coventry council is getting on with calculating how it will make the savings that it needs to make. In fact, its deputy leader, Councillor George Duggins, has said that the council was in a “good position” compared with other councils, because it has taken early action.
There is no doubt that these are difficult decisions to make and of course they should be made at the local level by local authorities, to ensure that the priorities of local people, including those of people in Coventry, are reflected in those decisions. Ultimately, however, there is no doubt that the worst thing that we could do is to ignore the huge deficit that our country faces and the need to tackle it.
The hon. Gentleman rightly mentioned the issue of infrastructure in his speech and I want to refer to it briefly. During the spending review period, the Government will actually spend slightly more on infrastructure than the last Government had planned to spend. Of course, investment across the board has already been announced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport, but I have no doubt that the points that have been made today about the regional transport infrastructure in the west midlands, including rail, will also be taken on board by him. Hon. Members are right to point out that high-speed rail is a strategic project that can bring benefits not only to the west midlands but nationally. However, there is still the need to ensure that we get investment in the existing track. Of course, that existing track has a clear role to play in the coming months and years, by helping Coventry and other areas to regenerate their economy.
Finally, I will mention the Building Schools for the Future programme. I recognise the concerns that the hon. Gentleman set out about that programme—they are concerns that I face in my own constituency. It says everything about the BSF programme that a Government who were in power for 13 years could come to the end of their term and still have existing schools in the sort of state that the hon. Gentleman and his colleague, the hon. Member for Coventry North West, described.
However, I have no doubt that such considerations are being taken into account by the James review and I assure both hon. Gentlemen that, as we go through the coming years, we want to ensure that parts of the country outside the south-east, such as Coventry, benefit to the maximum from the next period of economic growth.
Larch Disease
(13 years, 7 months ago)
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Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)
It is very nice to have this debate under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries, and it is nice to see the Minister with responsibility for agriculture here.
There is an insidious disease hitting the south-west that, if swept under the carpet, could decimate some of our most treasured ancient woodland, and cost many of the green jobs in the forestry sector that are vital to the rural economy and to the maintenance of our environment. Phytophthora ramorum is a fungus-like pathogen that is causing extensive damage and mortality to plants and trees. In particular, it has infected commercial softwoods such as Japanese larch in the south-west of England and south Wales. It was unknowingly spread by plant movements of ornamental rhododendrons to gardens across the UK.
In 2000, Forestry Commission scientists found similarities between a pathogen that had been causing leaf blotch and dieback in rhododendrons in nurseries in Germany since the early 1990s, and a pathogen in California—and subsequently in Oregon—that had caused the death of more than 1 million oak trees since its symptoms were identified in the US in 1994, gaining it the name, “sudden oak death.” In Japanese larch, the symptoms are that shoots and foliage can be affected and are visible as wilted, withered shoot tips with blackened needles, with the infected shoots shedding their needles prematurely. Trees with branch dieback may have numerous cankers on their branches and upper trunk that can bleed resin.
It is now known that Japanese larch, when actively growing in spring and summer, can produce very high quantities of disease-carrying spores, at much higher levels than those produced by rhododendrons, and they can be spread across significant distances in moist air. In August 2009, the pathogen was found to have infected Japanese larch trees at sites in Somerset, Devon and Cornwall, which was an unexpected change in its behaviour. More recently, in March 2011, the disease was found in the European larch in woodlands near Lostwithiel in Cornwall. The fact that this lethal pathogen has now proved capable of infecting yet another species is a worrying development and a setback in tackling the disease, but given the similarities between the two species, experts were not surprised.
Regarding the threat to the industry, as of January 2011 some 138 statutory plant notices had been issued in the UK requiring trees to be felled due to infections on some 2,200 hectares. An estimated 1,745 hectares in the south-west are affected by the disease. That is a grave threat to our woodlands and to the 2,220 people who are employed in primary production and processing. The 15,000 green jobs in the south-west supported by the forestry sector are under threat.
Japanese and European larch, the primary victims of the disease in the south-west, are extensively used in the manufacture of garden furniture, fencing and pallets, and their value to the south-west’s economy has been estimated at £47 million. Wood prices have been hit, with landowners estimating that the disease outbreak has seen larch prices fall by 35%. Over-supply, the cost of bio-security measures and the need for the diseased timber to be handled carefully only at licensed mills has also affected profitability.
Current actions by the Food and Environment Research Agency include a strategy to control and contain the disease, reducing levels of the infective spores in the environment by felling infected plantings of the principal host—Japanese larch—as rapidly as possible. FERA is also continuing its programme of clearing infected rhododendrons from woodland and other sites. There is also an aerial survey programme in the south-west, Wales and western Britain, where the climate favours the disease, to identify possible sites of infected larch, which is then followed by contact with owners, site visits to check symptoms and laboratory testing to confirm the presence or otherwise of the disease. When the disease is confirmed, there is a programme of clearance on both private and publicly owned sites and the development of a package of short-term help for private woodland owners affected by the disease, which includes a licence system to enable the movement and processing of timber from affected larch.
Other actions include continued scientific research better to understand the disease and the overall risks to our trees, woods and forests, including the potential impacts on the UK forestry sector and its associated industries; a further survey of rhododendrons by FERA, followed up with funded rhododendron clearance agreements when appropriate; and, very importantly, encouraging owners to check their woodland, especially larch plantings, for signs of the disease and to report suspicious symptoms promptly. Owners have a legal obligation under plant health legislation to notify the authorities if they suspect that the disease is present.
Regarding the effect on the forestry industry and the Confederation of Forest Industries, felling diseased larch has accelerated the loss of productive softwood forest, and the area of such forestry is already in decline, with new planting falling to match ongoing losses. A report by South West Woodland Renaissance, a coalition of 35 sawmillers and woodland owners, warned:
“The forecast total softwood availability from the current potential productive growing stock is forecast to decrease”
by up to 50%. The loss of larch trees has caused the acceleration of lost softwood forestry, undermining local green jobs and damaging efforts to reduce carbon emissions and develop a low-carbon economy.
I turn to the felling of diseased larch and replanting. Many landowners are concerned about the considerable cost of clearing woodland of infected trees, and also that the lack of support for woodland creation is inadequate and the resource is diminishing, especially with the value of larch trees going down due to so many of the trees having to be cut down because of the disease. There is a huge disparity in the current grant system, with the grant rates providing a higher contribution to the cost per hectare of planting broadleaves than softwood, and providing no grant at all for replanting softwood in protected ancient woodlands.
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)
May I back that up by talking about the experience of my constituent, Mr Rob White, who has lost 20 hectares of his Japanese larch under a compulsory felling notice? He is on a planted ancient woodland site and only 50% to 70% of his replanting costs would be covered—even if he planted wholly broadleaf species—and he is seriously considering the extent to which he will replant. He would, of course, like to use his common sense and replant a range of species; he has talked to me about replanting Sitka spruce and Douglas fir, which are relatively disease-resistant, and he would also like to mix in some broadleaf species. Does my hon. Friend feel that we should trust our constituents to use their common sense in that regard?
Neil Parish
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We have to use our common sense and bring a mixture of trees back into these ancient woodlands, which have suffered from the destructive larch disease. From my farming background, I know that the greater the spread of varieties of tree, the lower the chance of spreading the larch disease that might still be there. I am sure that the Minister heard exactly what my hon. Friend said, and it will be interesting to see whether the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs can come up with a solution whereby we can get the forests replanted, especially the very valuable ancient woodland.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) for bringing this matter to Westminster Hall; his concerns are shared by many of us. In Northern Ireland, for example, some 200 hectares of trees are under the same threat. Does he agree that trees are perceived as the lungs of the earth and that if they die, it will affect the environment as well? They are important. Does he agree that we need a co-ordinated plan that takes in not only parts of southern England but other regions such as Northern Ireland, where there has been a severe outbreak? It is clear from the evidence that the disease has jumped species.
Neil Parish
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. He is right. It is said that such diseases often breed better in the south-west of England due to the climate, but it is amazing how, over the years, they gradually move north. Is the disease present in Northern Ireland at the moment?
Jim Shannon
The evidence from the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development is clear. The disease is present in 200 hectares across nine woodlands and 4 hectares of private woodland. It is a disaster for the woodland in Northern Ireland, and it is prevalent in the Republic of Ireland as well.
Neil Parish
There are a lot of larch trees in Scotland as well. We must be concerned about the disease, which is why I am glad to have the opportunity to debate it with the Minister so that we can put the case to him. The case has been made for Northern Ireland and the south-west of England, and I will carry on. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention.
The industry believes that a flat-rate supplement will maintain the present imbalance of incentives, exacerbate the softwood differential and push up the cost of dealing with the disease. The Confederation of Forest Industries believes that the proposed grant system will increase the cost to the taxpayer by £1,500 a hectare. To retain a successful forestry sector in the south-west, urgent action is needed to create a more balanced grant system to allow forest owners more choice in replanting; my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) made that point. We must also listen closely to people who own and manage forests.
The Clinton Devon Estates are close to my constituency, and they have assessed what is happening with the disease. Before the involvement of His Royal Highness Prince Charles in February 2011—I understand that the Secretary of State was present at a meeting with the Clinton Devon Estates—the growing belief in the industry was that the plant health threat was poorly understood within the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and that the issue was under-resourced and at significant risk of being compounded by a lack of timely action and resource.
The Clinton Devon Estates now believe that the situation is being turned around. Experts and practitioners across the field are pulling together an action plan that highlights the following: understanding and minimising plant disease threats and mitigating their risks; managing pests and diseases and mitigating their impact; a robust review of the UK’s plant import controls to learn how we inflicted the disease on ourselves, which we hope will delay future disease threats; continued resourcing of relevant Forestry Commission activities, specifically aerial monitoring and diagnostic and research work undertaken at the FC research station at Alice Holt, to provide rapid diagnostic support to field teams and resource to engage proactively with woodland owners; and adequate resourcing of rhododendron removal from the wider environment.
As I am sure the Minister is aware, many parts of the south-west have a huge number of rhododendrons. Natural England leads on the issue within DEFRA and has requested additional resources. To date, there has been no response, although I understand that the Minister is probably not entirely flush with money.
The disease needs to be treated like foot and mouth, and the equivalent of a national war room should be set up to give focus and momentum to efforts to address the threat. Unlike foot and mouth, larch disease does not represent an obvious issue to society. Therefore, it is important to keep the pressure on so that proper resources are allocated to addressing it. The proposed support measures for replanting infected woodland should be equitable to commercial softwood species and native broad-leaf planting. Significant productive areas within the south-west risk being lost, which would have a direct negative impact on the wood processing sector.
Some 11.5% of Devon, or some 77,000 acres of land, is woodland, enjoyed by all who visit it. However, a Forestry Commission survey found that 60% of Devon’s woodlands are under-managed. That is a key issue that should be addressed. I am happy that the Minister could be here for this debate, and I ask him to take these matters forward. As I said, not everybody realises what is happening to our forests as a result of larch disease, and we need to tackle it quickly. We have many rhododendrons in the west country that could spread the disease. I will be interested to hear what solutions he has.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) on bringing this important issue to the attention of the House. I am happy to confirm that when I took responsibility as the forestry Minister almost a year ago and was apprised of the issue, I quickly realised its importance and the potential severity of its impact on the UK’s forests. It is right that a year on, we should be having a debate, albeit a short one, about Phytophthora ramorum, particularly in the south-west.
As my hon. Friend said, the disease was first identified in rhododendrons in this country in about 2002. It was not until 2009 that it appeared to jump species into the Japanese larch. It has appeared in other species—in Ireland it has been found in Sitka spruce—but apparently, in all such instances, the individual tree has been surrounded by highly infected rhododendron, which shows the impact of the spores. Touch wood—perhaps that is an unfortunate phrase—there is no sign that the disease is openly jumping to other species, but that is clearly the big worry.
As my hon. Friend rightly said, the matter does not affect only state forests. The vast majority of England’s forests, 80%, are not state-owned, so private forests have a serious role to play. I am sure that he will pass on my thanks to those in his constituency for how private landowners have joined the Forestry Commission and the Food and Environment Research Agency to combat the threat of Phytophthora ramorum.
My hon. Friend asked what we are doing in the widest context. I will try to address that first. DEFRA’s chief scientific adviser, Professor Bob Watson, is advising us on the issues, opportunities and priorities for new research, working with others to ensure that outputs have maximum impact on what we can do and working with the Forestry Commission, FERA and the wider scientific community to develop further our strategic approach to existing and emerging plant pests and diseases, which are not unique to this country. There is an international perspective as well.
That work is setting out an agenda wider than Phytophthora ramorum to minimise the risk of new threats entering the UK, to enable us to understand more about the threats that we face, to work with society to make it more aware of threats, pathways and the risks of bringing in infection and to identify positive actions that those who manage our trees, woodlands and forests can take to improve their resilience. In addition, Forest Research, the research agency of the Forestry Commission, is, like every other public body, going through its own spending review. It has decided, rightly, to reprioritise its research work. As part of that, programmes such as biosecurity will be increased and the budget maintained.
As my hon. Friend has said, Phytophthora ramorum is not unique to this country. We do not know exactly how it came in, but it is believed to have probably come from some infected plant importation. It exists in 15 European Union member states and, as he has pointed out, the United States. In the UK, it was initially in rhododendron and the whole of that species, and it then jumped into Japanese larch. It is not so much that this is a disease of the south-west, but it appears to be a disease of larch, which is a particularly common species in the south-west—particularly Japanese larch—for the commercial reasons to which my hon. Friend has referred. Larch is an important forestry species in the south-west and in parts of Wales and the rest of England. The disease has, as my hon. Friend has said, also been found in European larch in Cornwall. I have asked whether that indicates that European larch is any more resistant, but we just do not know. It is probably because there are far more Japanese larch than European larch in the south-west.
On the Government’s strategy, whether it relates to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs or the Forestry Commission, to deal with Phytophthora ramorum, our overall strategy on the fungal pathogen, which is the disease under discussion, is to reduce the pathogen inoculum—in other words, the spores that are produced—to an epidemiologically insignificant level by removing sporulating host plants from high-risk areas. The aim is to reduce the risk of significant tree death and other impacts. In plain English, our policy is to cut them down as quickly as possible. The point is that, while the tree is alive and standing in the wind, the fungus is sporulating and the spores spread considerably. The sooner the tree is cut down and dies, the less risk. Although the tree being on the ground and dead does not remove all risk, it dramatically reduces it. That is the fundamental objective—cut them down as soon as possible.
I should say that the timber from such trees is perfectly okay. The timber itself does not carry any disease. The bark and any foliage, however, are more risky. Bark can be burnt and used for incineration for power generation and heat and so on, but it cannot be used for mulch purposes, because of the risk that it contains disease. Small trees and useless stuff are left on the ground, because it is not cost-effective to remove them for the small risk. Once they are on the ground, the risk is much lower. That is the layman’s approach to what is happening, which is important.
Jim Shannon
Biosecurity precautions are important. Have their been any discussions with other regions in the United Kingdom and Great Britain—in other words, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales—where there have also been outbreaks, so that there is a co-ordinated plan to address the issue across the whole of the United Kingdom?
Mr Paice
I am happy to confirm to the hon. Gentleman that we are talking to bodies not only throughout the United Kingdom, but beyond. As I have said, 15 EU member states have Phytophthora ramorum. Clearly, it would be pointless for everybody to enter into their own, unique research programmes, so we are working closely with all of them on research into the disease and, as he has indicated, on biosecurity.
I have responded to my hon. Friend about our practical solutions to reduce the incidence of sporulation of the fungus, to reduce the risk of further infection. It is a massive challenge and he is right to identify the need to find out more. The Forestry Commission and FERA, together with other organisations, such as the National Trust, the Royal Horticultural Society and Natural England, are delivering a five-year, £25 million programme in England and Wales against Phytophthora ramorum. This partnership is working together to implement the measures necessary to achieve the programme’s objectives. Some of those measures are obvious and my hon. Friend has referred to them. They include the use of aerial surveillance of more than 50,000 sq km to detect symptomatic trees and to monitor progress with felling. That aerial surveillance started again a couple of weeks ago, because larch, unlike most conifers, is deciduous and we do not know when it will come into leaf until it does.
The measures also include additional funding for woodland owners to use the services of qualified agents to arrange the felling and removal of infected timber, and there has been a moratorium on felling asymptomatic larch in winter. The Forestry Commission also has statutory powers to deal with the disease, and they require the felling of infected trees on up to 2,000 hectares of private land and the public forest estate. We are also issuing licences that allow the timber processing industry to transport infected timber and utilise it in an approved manner. My hon. Friend has rightly referred to the sad fact that that has led to a reduction in the value of larch timber. I gather that it has picked up again to about 75% of its price before the disease’s outbreak, but I recognise fully that it is an issue.
That brings me to our assistance with the restocking of infected sites, which includes enhanced rates of grant aid and advice on alternative species to larch. This relates to the point that both my hon. Friend and my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) made about planting on ancient woodland sites, a number of which have been infected. We will announce shortly the new rates of grants, so I cannot use this as an opportunity to speculate on what they may be, but I can say to both my hon. Friends that we are aware of the challenges of dealing with planted ancient woodland sites. On the one hand, there is the desire for an economic return, which is why larch was there in the first place, but, on the other hand, there is considerable pressure to return them to their ancient woodland origins by using, primarily, broadleaf trees. We are trying to work out a grant system that recognises that challenge.
The Forestry Commission and FERA have regular meetings with industry associations to alert them to the various threats of the pathogens. There have been a number of reports in the media about the disease, which is helpful, and the commission maintains a series of web pages. We have talked about the problem of a number of diseases, pathogens and pests that have found their way into the UK in recent years. There is little doubt that, with increased trade, transport and, possibly, climate change, we face a higher level of challenge from those various, newly arrived organisms. We recognise that many of them may have been introduced through the international trade in plants, and we are committed to finding ways of preventing entry through that route, which brings us back to biosecurity.
A review of the European Union’s plant health regime is well under way and a number of recommendations have been made and are being considered by both the Government and industry stakeholders. A number of improvements are likely to be implemented in 2013-14. However, our import controls can be targeted only at plants and plant products that are known to pose a risk. Owing to international law, we cannot put a blanket control on all plants and trees.
It is worth mentioning that the level of infection of Phytophthora ramorum in nurseries and garden centres has been reduced significantly. Last year, only 0.16% of inspections resulted in any positive findings, which is a reduction of more than 3% since 2003. It is clearly going in the right direction. However, we may—I hate to say this, but I think it is the reality—have to learn to live with some pests and diseases, which means that we have to learn to manage them and keep them under control rather than eliminate them entirely. It will require a co-ordinated approach from our forest owners and managers, as well as our scientists, forestry experts and policy makers. It may require any of a range of different approaches, but we have to put biosecurity at the centre.
I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton that the Government and I take this disease extremely seriously. I am pleased that he has used the opportunity of a short debate to talk about it, describe it and challenge the Government about it. We appreciate its importance. If he or anybody he knows feels that the Government are not taking it sufficiently seriously, or has any other suggestions, I would be interested to hear from them. I am grateful to him and hope that I have been able to reassure him about the seriousness that we attach to the issue.
Medical Students
(13 years, 7 months ago)
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Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to have this debate under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. I am very pleased to have the opportunity to raise some key issues about the funding of medical students. Aspects of the upheaval in higher education funding are, of course, important both for the recruitment of doctors and the availability of opportunities to study for the medical profession. They are of particular concern in my constituency, which is home to 1,000 undergraduates and 1,300 postgraduates in medical sciences. I am grateful for the briefing that I have received on the matter from the British Medical Association and the Oxford university medical sciences division, as well as for the concerns that constituents have raised with me on these issues.
At a time when higher education as a whole faces the challenges and dangers of the 80% cut in university teaching support and the trebling of fees, concerns about the costs of and access to medical education are all the greater. The length and intensity of medical courses both add to the cost to students and limit their opportunity to supplement their income through paid work.
The BMA estimates that, under the present system, medical students graduate with some £37,000 of student debt. With all universities charging or set to charge £9,000 for medical studies under the new regime, the BMA estimates that that figure will go up to around £70,000. That does not count overdrafts, credit cards, professional loans or family borrowing. We do not need to exaggerate the impact of prospective debt on students’ choices to be concerned that debts of £70,000 or more might be a barrier to able people from poor—or, indeed, middling—backgrounds who are considering entering the medical profession.
My concern is about the funding position facing all medical students. However, on the challenge facing us on widening participation, there is likely to be a triple impact on entry to medical studies. The A-level admission grades are understandably particularly demanding and poorer students from schools serving poorer areas are less likely to achieve them, which clearly demands further action within the school system. The requirement of medical work experience is also likely to be harder to fulfil for school students from financially hard-pressed families or, indeed, from families with no connections to the medical profession. At the same time, the prospective length and costs of study are considerably higher and it seems plausible that those are also having an impact on the relatively low rates of admission to medical studies from poorer socio-economic groups.
Statistics on admissions show that the wider challenge of opening up access to higher education is certainly compounded in the case of medical studies. The BMA equal opportunities committee report published in October 2009 includes a review of UCAS data. It states:
“The proportion of acceptances to medical school coming from socio-economic class I (31%) was almost twice that of acceptances to all other degrees from class I (16 %). Just 15% of students accepted into medical school came from the four poorer socio-economic classes (grades IV to VII) compared with 24% of students accepted to all degrees.”
The BMA has also said:
“The percentage of students from lower income families is slowly improving across the higher education sector but the rate remains stagnant in medicine.”
In the light of all that and the Government’s stated commitment to widen access to higher education, I would like to ask the Minister what the Government’s specific proposals are to widen the pool of talent entering medicine and whether the Government, in bringing forward the higher education White Paper, will look at the likely special factors at work in relation to medicine? I have listed some of those.
Will the Government also consider the advice and support given to able students in school, the necessity and operation of the work experience requirement and the £75 cost of the UK clinical aptitude test used as part of the selection process? That test gives an early signal to students from poor backgrounds that studying medicine is an expensive undertaking.
An important part of overall support for medical students is the provision of bursaries. As the Minister will be aware, the future shape of those has been uncertain for some time. The previous Government consulted on options for change in 2009, and last month the present Government set out new options for reforming the system.
Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con)
As I represent the other half of the Oxford university seat, the right hon. Gentleman will know that I share many of his concerns. In the light of his valid concerns about equal representation among medical students, does he agree that now is the crucial time to decide about the NHS bursary scheme, given that many students are deciding which courses to apply for?
Mr Smith
I am grateful to have the support of my colleague. I might describe her constituency as covering the other third of Oxford university. Her support on that point is very welcome. I was about to say that people are already asking what the situation will be, and obviously the sooner they can have certainty, the better.
The BMA has joined other bodies in consulting on the issue, and I understand there is some expectation that agreement will be reached. However, one big outstanding question is whether the new proposed bursary arrangements will cover tuition fees in the same way as they are covered now, with the Department of Health paying the fees for years 5 and 6 of an undergraduate course. If the bursary does not cover fees—it seems extraordinary that Ministers have not yet made the Government’s position on that clear—medical students would obviously face still higher costs and debt.
As my colleague and friend the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood), whose constituency represents the other third of Oxford university, says, mounting urgency on that matter arises because would-be applicants worry about how the arrangements will work for 2012-13. I press the Minister to give an undertaking that tuition fees for medical students will be covered at least as well as they are now.
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)
The other point that needs to be made is that many of these courses are for six years, not just five. We need to take into account the cost of living expenses and the fact that many medical students have to take out commercial loans in addition to student loans, which makes the matter especially significant. I declare an interest as the mother of a medical student on a six-year course.
Mr Smith
The hon. Lady will know all about the matter. That was a very well made point. I will come to the subject of commercial loans later.
I also want to press the Minister on the position of graduate-entry medical students. That is an even more important route of entry than the 10% of total numbers that they represent suggests. The BMA has pointed out to me that its 2009-10 medical student finance survey shows that a higher proportion of students from poorer socio-economic groups enter medicine through graduate-entry courses than do so through undergraduate courses. Oxford university medical sciences division has pointed out to me that the best graduate-entry students are extremely strong and do exceptionally well. That route into medicine is important both for excellence and widening access.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
The pharmaceutical and medical sectors of industry have clearly made many financial commitments to a number of universities across the whole of the United Kingdom, including at Queen’s university, Belfast. Does the right hon. Gentleman think that the pharmaceutical and medical industry could do more to help poorer students with tuition fees?
Mr Smith
A number already do, and of course we are grateful to those who give support directly, or through foundations and trusts. If more could be given, that would be very welcome. As the hon. Gentleman says, whether in Northern Ireland or elsewhere in the UK, the contribution that spin-offs make to our economy, as well as the direct benefits of investment in medicine, is enormous. Those who benefit from that in profit should put extra back.
The point that I was making about graduate-entry medical students is that they are not eligible for loans to cover tuition fees and have to find first year fee costs out of their own pocket or from other sources of help, some from specific university bursaries. If graduate-entry students had to raise £9,000 for their first, and maybe subsequent, year fees, on top of the debts that they would have already accumulated as undergraduate students, that might be prohibitively expensive and inflict real damage on the quality and social range of graduate-entry medical students. What assurances can the Minister give on graduate-entry student funding? Will there be additional help for first year fees in light of the increase? Will tuition fees for subsequent years be supported by the Department of Health at the new, higher rate?
Another concern, which relates to the point made by the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon, regards graduate-entry students who may no longer have access to some of the loans for professional development that have been made available by commercial lenders. The BMA has cited the recent decision by banks such as NatWest to withdraw those loans, which were obviously hugely important for graduate students who were ineligible for tuition fee support. Will the Minister make representations directly to the banks and to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who might usefully underline that this is an especially important area for us all to be in it together in doing what we can for graduate medical entry?
All in all, there are big challenges facing prospective medical students. Yes, demand for the courses is high, and it is good for patients, science and the economy that so many of the brightest want to study medicine, but we cannot be complacent. It is vital that people from all backgrounds are encouraged and helped to fulfil their potential in medicine when they have something good to offer.
I would like to thank and praise the work of access officers, at Oxford university and elsewhere, who are working hard to reach out to schools and students who have not in the past thought of Oxford, and to raise aspirations and challenge prejudice. A very good example is the university of Oxford’s UNIQ summer school—it is unique, I think, but it is called UNIQ too—which is a programme of free residential courses in July and August for year 12 students from UK state schools and colleges.
The summer schools are targeted at academically talented students whose school or college has little or no history of making successful applications to Oxford. Participants follow a week-long academic course designed and taught by Oxford lecturers and tutors, as well as taking part in social activities and meeting up with alumni of the university and current students.
In its first year, 69% of UNIQ summer school students went on to apply to Oxford and 27% were given conditional offers by the university. I understand that the medical strand of that initiative has attracted a lot of state school applicants, and that the conversion rate to application and the offer of an undergraduate place in medicine is very good. That shows what can be done. Let us, through the funding arrangements for medical students, make the job of those promoting access arrangements easier, not harder.
This country can be very proud of the quality of education, training and research in medicine, and the scale of achievement in my constituency is awesome. We all want to see the most able people, regardless of background, working in the profession. Criteria for admission and the judgment of would-be students’ potential must, as with the assessment of their progress and qualifications, be matters for the medical schools and universities, not the Government. The Government have a clear responsibility to act and open up opportunities to ensure that there is the right advice and support, to raise school standards and aspirations, to remove barriers and to fund medical students fairly. I look forward to hearing from the Minister on whether and how the Government intend to set about that.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anne Milton)
I congratulate the right hon. Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) on securing this debate on what I know is an area of great importance. He is right to say that it is about recruitment, skills and the development of the profession. I would also like to thank him for his praise of access officers at Oxford, and for highlighting the summer school. It is important to see universities doing what they can to ensure that participation is widened, and that people who might not have felt able to apply to such universities as Oxford, or who might not have felt that they had the necessary skills, are given the greatest opportunity to do so. It is good to hear the right hon. Gentleman raise the point that this is something that schools have to take on board. We often discuss the issue of universities widening participation, but we also want to ensure that our schools prepare young people, and have the skills to prepare young people, to apply to all universities. Young people should not feel as though they are excluded from any opportunity.
There is no doubt that training for medical students in this country is some of the best in the world, and we want to keep it that way. That means that funding must be at a level that allows for the best training. The consultation paper “Liberating the NHS: developing the healthcare workforce” sets out our proposals for a new framework for education and training, and the right hon. Gentleman raised particular issues that I will come back to in more detail. The proposals would see health care providers take the lead. They would plan and develop their own work force, and take on many of the responsibilities that were previously held by the strategic health authorities. A new statutory body, health education England, would provide national leadership for education and training, with a strong clinical focus from top to bottom. The proposals for health education England have been widely applauded—it is very important to have that leadership in education and in that strong clinical focus. We now have an opportunity to review and reshape our work force and what it is designed to do, so that it can respond to the challenges of the future while still providing excellent care. We sometimes lag behind, trying to solve the problems of tomorrow with the solutions of yesterday.
For patients, of course, but also for staff and students, there must be a secure, diverse work force that has full access to education, training and opportunities to progress. That must be transparent, so that we can see how it is working and help ensure that we all get value for money, students included. The Government have consulted to see how that can happen. We have involved a wide range of people, because the new framework is about giving some of the power to those people. The central pillar is the transfer of greater responsibility to health care providers, escaping the one-size-fits-all approach that has been too prevalent in the past. Those providers will need to work together to co-ordinate the development of their local work force, so that it is tailor-made for the individual pressures of individual areas, which vary widely. That means building strong partnerships with universities and colleges to put the skills of educators to the best possible use and strengthening those relationships, which I do not think have been strong enough. There has been a general recognition among health care providers that those relationships have not been strong enough in the past.
I know that those involved with both the medical profession, including the BMA, and the education sector, want to ensure that medical education is protected and improved. They also want to know that the role of the postgraduate medical and dental deaneries, which currently form part of the strategic health authorities, will continue, so that medical students and trainees continue to be well-supported. Medicine, like many other professions, does not end at the end of training—continuing professional development is an important part of it.
Anne Milton
I am happy to—so that the right hon. Gentleman does not feel I am ducking his questions, I will deal with them once I have finished with the deaneries.
We want to retain and build on the important functions of deaneries as we build the new framework for education and training. We know how important that is, because any transition not only makes the participants feel nervous but is a significant operation for any Government. The transition is when we can let the baby slip out with the bath water.
The right hon. Gentleman raised the issue of bursaries in particular, but I have to disappoint him, in that I cannot make an announcement today. We are acutely aware how long awaited it is. No one could be more frustrated than me with the slowness of government at times, but it is important that we get it right. I thank my hon. Friends the Members for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood) and for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) for their contributions. My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes also raised the issue of some of the indirect costs of training, to do with the length of the course. We will be making announcements soon but, as I said, it is important that we get it right and that we involve other Departments.
The right hon. Gentleman also asked if I would make representations via the Treasury to other organisations about supporting training schemes. It is important that we continue to do that—perhaps we do not see enough of that in this country. At this point, I should mention that Julie Moore, the chief executive of University Hospitals Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust, is leading some of the work we are doing with the NHS Future Forum, as part of the ongoing listening exercise on the health reforms. Julie will continue the debate started in the consultation, so there will be further opportunity for input. I urge him and the other Members present to get involved, to ensure that their views and the particular issues faced by medical students are taken on board.
Our responsibility is held jointly with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, so the right hon. Gentleman should ensure that any comments made today also go as directly to it. The two Departments are working closely together, so that the specifics of medical education can be recognised.
Mr Smith
I wanted the assurance that, as part of the Department of Health’s collaborative work with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the long-awaited higher education White Paper, which it would have been better to have had before the fees increase rather than after, will address the specific position, challenges and opportunities of medical students.
Anne Milton
Very much so. To some extent, the health of the nation rests on the skills of the professions that deal with the consequences of poor health. Medical students and doctors are part of that, so it is important that we get the system right. We need to maintain a competitive edge if we are to continue to produce medical graduates of the highest calibre. We shall not fail in our duty to make representations to other Departments, although working together is not always as easy for government as it sounds. However, we have made significant progress, and I think our words are being heard loud and clear.
As the right hon. Gentleman knows, universities will be able to charge a basic threshold of £6,000 a year for courses, and up to £9,000 a year for some, but subject to much tougher conditions on widening participation and fair access, which he mentioned in particular. There are still many such challenges, not only for universities but for our education system and at a wider societal level, if we are truly to get participation as wide as it can be. We need to look at all sorts of other drivers in the system directing young people to their choices.
We are shifting the balance of contributions from taxpayers to graduates, who benefit most from higher earnings over the course of their working lives. It is important to recognise that, after medical students have gone through the system and become consultants, they are probably among the top few percent of wage earners in this country. Contribution from them, therefore, is important. For poorer students, who might feel that the burden is too high, there is a balance or tipping point at which active participation in a fees scheme becomes a barrier. We have done a lot of work to ensure that that is not the case, and we continue to do so.
Many of the subjects associated with medicine cost more to teach, and we want a system in which anyone with the ability can access university and study such courses without being put off by the cost. That is why we will continue to provide additional funding for science, technology, engineering and medical courses.
The NHS bursary, which is in recognition of the length of time it takes to study medicine, will continue, helping students with their tuition fees and supporting those from low to middle-income families—sometimes, the middle-income families get squeezed in the middle. We have undertaken a review of the bursary, and will make some announcements shortly. In the review, we considered the views of the British Medical Association, which played an active part, ensuring that the perspective of medical students was considered.
In addition to the NHS bursary, last year an additional £890 million were invested by the NHS to provide clinical placements to medical students, ensuring that NHS providers continue to deliver high-quality clinical placements, which are an important part of such training.
The central investment in 2011-12 is £4.9 billion, a 2% increase on 2012-13. It is important that the funding mechanisms provide the right incentives and allow funding to be transparent, to drive quality and to be value for money, supporting a level playing field between providers. Any bursary schemes included should be easy to use and to access—sometimes, the mechanisms by which one can get support are only available to those at the top end of the IQ scale, because they are so complicated. Such complexity can be another significant barrier.
Current funding for clinical education and training is based on local agreements between strategic health authorities and providers. It can result in inequities in the funding of similar placements in different parts of the country. To resolve that, we have been working with others to develop proposals for a tariff-based approach to clinical education and training funding. Such tariffs would enable a national approach to funding all undergraduate clinical placements, including placements for medical students, as well as postgraduate medical training programmes. That will support a much more level playing field between providers. The variation in current funding arrangements means that the introduction of tariffs would have a bigger impact on some providers than others.
Anne Milton
We are looking at that issue at the moment. We have received about 500 consultation responses, so I am sure that it will be highlighted—it is something we need to look at. The other important thing we are looking at is proposed levies on private health care providers. Certainly, when I trained as a nurse—many years ago—that was an issue, and it remains so today.
The tariff ought to mean a more even and equitable system throughout the country. We will continue to work with SHAs and providers, and we will consider all the views expressed, to build understanding of what the tariffs will do and of how to manage the transition.
I assure the right hon. Gentleman that the Government recognise the importance of medical education and of continuing medical education. The new arrangements will take on board many of the issues he has raised, to ensure that we have a health care work force fit for the future.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Ministerial Statements
Afghanistan
(13 years, 7 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
I wish to inform the House that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, together with the Ministry of Defence and the Department for International Development, is today publishing the fifth progress report on developments in Afghanistan.
The report focuses on key developments during the month of March.
Progress across the political and security spectrum was, by and large, positive in March. The continuing rise in the number of weapons caches found, the attack on the UN compound in Mazar-e-Sharif on 1 April and other protests against the burning of the Koran in the US, are clear signs however that the insurgency remains a serious threat to stability in Afghanistan.
President Karzai repeated his invitation to the Taliban to return to peaceful Afghan society. He invited
“all Afghanistan’s neighbours and in particular officials in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to give their full and cordial support to our efforts for peace and reconciliation”.
UN Security Council Resolution 1974 renewed the mandate of the United Nations Assistance Mission (UNAMA) in Afghanistan on 22 March.
President Karzai announced the first seven provinces and urban districts to begin the process of transition to Afghan-led security responsibility, the first step towards Afghanistan assuming full responsibility for its own security by the end of 2014. President Karzai’s announcement on security transition was warmly welcomed by Afghans.
The Afghan national army led an important operation in Helmand, clearing a route of improvised explosive devices and seriously disrupting the insurgency without the active support of international security assistance forces.
The lack of an International Monetary Fund programme, which is used by the international community as an indicator of sound economic and financial management, remains a serious concern.
I am placing the report in the Library of the House. It will also be published on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website (www.fco.gov.uk) and the HMG UK and Afghanistan website (http://afghanistan.hmg.gov.uk/).
House of Lords
Housing Benefit
(13 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Kennedy of Southwark
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the implications of housing benefit reform for the geographic distribution of low-income families.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)
My Lords, our published impact documents specify average losses by local authority. We expect that a very small proportion of people may have to move as a result of the housing benefit reforms, with a minimal impact on the geographic distribution of low-income families. My department has commissioned a consortium of leading research organisations to comprehensively evaluate the effects of recent local housing allowance changes. Further information on that will be available from the Library today.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
I thank the Minister for his response. Does he agree with me that the success of UK cities is that people from all walks of life live and work together and that introducing a policy that forces low-income families to move to the suburbs, as happened in Paris, would lead to alienation and social unrest and contradict the Government’s belief in the big society?
Lord Freud
My Lords, the comparison of London with Paris, which has been made quite widely, is very misleading. The structure of London is very different from that of Paris. London is made up of a collection of villages and is quite unlike the doughnut of Paris. I would not agree with that assertion.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, is the Minister aware of the aggravation in London caused in the past couple of years, particularly under the previous Government, when people received letters from councils stating that they could have much higher rents than those that they were receiving and that the council would pay for them? That pushed rents up artificially. I know personally of two cases that were directly affected. Now landlords are unwilling to take rents that previously they thought were very fair.
Lord Freud
My Lords, there seems to be some evidence that landlords were able to benefit from the local housing allowance regime in that we saw its rates go up rather faster than rents for non-housing benefit recipients.
Lord Best
May I underline the thanks of everybody who is worried about the impact of housing benefit cuts for the Minister’s action in setting up this independent and rigorous review of the housing benefit consequences? Will he tell the House when it will start, who will be carrying out the review and whether it will include not just people who have to leave because they are evicted or cannot afford the new rent but those who stay put and may face considerable hardship finding the rent from their other benefits and allowances?
Lord Freud
My Lords, I am pleased that we have a stunning consortium to do this work. It is led by Ian Cole from the Centre for Regional Economic and Social Research at Sheffield Hallam University, with other key team members being Peter Kemp of the Oxford Institute of Social Policy, Carl Emmerson of the Institute for Fiscal Studies and Ben Marshall from IPSO Mori. It is a stunning group and is going to build an understanding of the impacts of the housing benefit changes right the way through from people who move to those who stay—the noble Lord was concerned about them—at national and local levels, and it will integrate that with wider housing and labour-market evidence. A lot of this will be econometric analysis. The group will report the findings to me finally, as agreed, in spring 2013, but there will be interim reports next year.
Lord German
My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on such a comprehensive independent review. Will he indicate the geographic spread of areas which will be covered? Will it include hard-to-let difficult areas as well as rural and urban areas in the whole of the country?
Lord Freud
My Lords, I am really pleased that we will have a lot of review for the amount of money that we have. We will cover no fewer than 19 carefully selected case study areas, which will include three each in Scotland and Wales, and 13 in England. Clearly, there will be a concentration on the key area of London and the south-east but we will cover representative areas right through the country.
Lord Knight of Weymouth
My Lords, the Government’s change of heart on cutting housing benefit for the long-term unemployed was most welcome. It reflects the possibility that the Minister is compassionate and listening. In that spirit, will he now listen to my noble friends Lord Kennedy and Lord Best, and to the University of Cambridge research which estimates that within five years almost the whole of inner London will be unaffordable to those in receipt of benefits? Will he even listen to the Mayor of London who described these reforms most colourfully as Kosovo-style ethnic cleansing? If the consortium finds that it is right and that he is wrong, what will he do?
Lord Freud
I assure the noble Lord that I am very pleased to be a listening Minister. Some of the forecasts clearly are misrepresented in the sense that the Mayor of London most certainly did not mean that he expected Kosovo-style cleansing. He actually said that we would not see such cleansing—and we will not see such cleansing. But we now will have a review to establish exactly what is happening. Clearly, we will watch what is happening very closely and take any steps that we need to if we find things happening that should not be.
Lord Boswell of Aynho
My Lords, we all welcome the review. Is it not important that it should also take account of long-term factors in conjunction with the other aspects of benefit reform? This is not merely a snapshot for now, trying to allay the apprehensions that some noble Lords have expressed. It is also very important to keep a continuing handle on the changing social balance and whether it is being influenced by the benefits system.
Lord Freud
My Lords, the key principle behind these housing benefit reforms is that people who are benefit recipients should experience the same kind of pressures as everyone else. That is the way to integrate them back into the world of work, which is one of the fundamentals of our whole welfare reform strategy.
The Earl of Listowel
Is the Minister aware that there is a concern that some families may be moved to different areas, which will put additional pressure on children’s services? Is there a mechanism to give additional support to local authorities if there is an additional burden on those services?
Lord Freud
My Lords, yes, the system works so that, as families move to different areas, funding follows those families. There may however be lags, which clearly is an issue of some concern. The fundamental principle is that funding follows the requirement.
Economy: Personal Debt
Lord Haskel
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they intend to take regarding levels of personal debt.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox)
My Lords, it is unsustainable debt coupled with irresponsible lending that most concerns this Government. We will take action where necessary, which is why we launched our review of consumer credit and personal insolvency. We will make an announcement on the next steps before the Summer Recess.
Lord Haskel
Did the Minister see today’s report that household income is set to fall yet again? With personal debt at an all-time high, inflation at more than 4 per cent and no growth in the economy, does the Minister share my concern that the steps that the Government are taking to reduce public debt will simply transfer the public debt to the personal debt as people are forced to borrow more money just to keep afloat?
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, we can thank the Labour Government for allowing public borrowing to spiral out of control. This Government are facing some very difficult decisions in order to bring us back into line. No one likes the idea of putting our people in debt any more than they absolutely have to be. The noble Lord can be assured that we are looking at every possible way to stop interest rates spiralling out of control, otherwise we will find ourselves exactly where the Labour Government found themselves: out of control.
Baroness Coussins
My Lords, in the light of the OBR’s forecast on household debt, which it states will have increased substantially by 2015, how will the Government ensure that debt advice which is both free and independent continues to be accessible to the people who most need it? I declare an interest as president of the Money Advice Trust.
Baroness Wilcox
On 12 February, the Government announced continued funding of £27 million this year to maintain the service for debt advice in citizens advice bureaux and other independent advice agencies in England and Wales. We are working to put the future provision of debt advice on to a more sustainable footing, ensuring that consumers can access the support they need easily, and that the debt-advice services deliver the best possible value for money. Good advice is worth every penny we can possibly spend on it.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, following the comment from the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, the noble Baroness will be aware that, because of workload and financial pressures, many citizens advice bureaux are no longer giving face-to-face advice, other than on an exceptional basis, and are directing people to what is euphemistically called a self-help system of publications and websites. Is her department monitoring how many people switch from talking to the CAB to the commercial websites which, frankly, are frequently honey pots that get them into a worse financial mess? If there is a major switch, will she consider providing additional resources to enhance face-to-face advice?
Baroness Wilcox
My noble friend is reflecting worries that we must always have when changing from one system to another. We are of course protecting the core funding for Citizens Advice and Citizens Advice Scotland, and we have directed £470 million over the spending review to support the voluntary sector. As my noble friend knows, we propose to streamline the consumer landscape, but during this time we are obviously keeping a weather eye on what is happening. I am grateful to my noble friend for bringing this to the attention of the House.
The Lord Bishop of Liverpool
My Lords, when a similar Question was recently put, I asked the Minister whether the Government were aware of the Commission on Personal Debt that was chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths of Fforestfach. The noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, responded by saying that he would look at that commission report. Can the Minister say whether the Government have now read the report and whether they are prepared to implement some of its recommendations?
Baroness Wilcox
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool is right to remind us that he did ask that question of, I believe, my noble friend Lord Sassoon. I think he is referring to the report published by the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths of Fforestfach, which I have read. At the moment we are doing the consumer credit review. I will check this with my colleague, but I think that that report has gone in as evidence to the consumer credit review. When that review reports in the summer, no doubt it will refer to the report of the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths of Fforestfach.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, will the Minister comment on fears that a number of provisions in the Welfare Reform Bill could increase the level of personal debt? I am thinking of, for example, the effective abolition of the Social Fund and the suggestion that universal credit might be paid on a monthly basis, making even more difficult the juggling act of trying to get by on a low income.
Baroness Wilcox
I am afraid that I cannot answer the noble Baroness’s question because it is not my department, but I will come back to her in writing.
Lord Myners
My Lords, setting aside the Minister’s comments that the Government seek to influence interest rates, can she explain how a reduction of the public deficit over the next five years of 6.9 per cent of cyclically adjusted GDP makes sense when private sector debt, which is already at a high level, as the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, pointed out, is due to increase to 9.1 per cent? Where is the logic about unsustainable debt, to which the Minister spoke?
Baroness Wilcox
I am not inclined to be able to answer that question right now, off the cuff. However, I remind the noble Lord, who is sitting on the Labour Benches, that it is his party which got us into this mess in the first place.
NHS: Waiting Times
(13 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness McDonagh
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the waiting times for accident and emergency treatment and operations since the abolition of targets.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, the four-hour A&E waiting time standard was replaced by a set of clinical quality indicators, incorporating measures of timeliness, in April 2011. The proportion of patients waiting for less than four hours during the four weeks up to 24 April 2011 was 96.7 per cent compared to 98.3 per cent in April 2010. The average median referral-to-treatment waiting time for admitted patients was nine weeks in February 2011 and 8.4 weeks in May 2010.
Baroness McDonagh
I thank the noble Earl for that Answer. It would be clearer to the House to explain that waiting times for in-patients are at a three-year, all-time high since the 18-week target was set and that A&E waits are rising sharply. I am sure the Minister accepts the evidence that longer waits for treatment cost more per patient and clinical outcomes are worse. Can he tell the House how much on average it is costing per additional patient for those waiting over the 18-week target, which amounts to tens of thousands of patients each month?
Earl Howe
My Lords, first, referral-to-treatment times fluctuate. Having looked at how the figures have moved over the past year or two, my advice is that they are broadly stable. The figures to which the noble Baroness referred were struck at a particularly pressurised time for the NHS. As she knows, there are all kinds of reasons why during the winter referral-to-treatment times tend to lengthen. However, the right in the NHS constitution to be treated within 18 weeks remains. On accident and emergency waiting times, our clear advice from clinicians was that the four-hour target should be adjusted to reflect the clinical case mix and clinical priorities.
Lord Kakkar
My Lords, I am sure the noble Earl is aware of the recent report from the Royal College of Surgeons on emergency surgical standards. Does he share its concerns about the potential detrimental impact of waiting list targets for elective procedures on clinical outcomes for patients requiring emergency operations? In asking the question, I declare an interest as a practising surgeon and professor of surgery.
Earl Howe
My Lords, we are quite clear that timeliness remains an important ingredient in the care of patients. However, we are also clear that it is not the only measure of quality. On emergency surgery, there is no reason to expect that patients will be treated any less urgently in the future than they have been in the past. What matters is clinical priorities being set correctly.
Baroness Sharples
Is my noble friend aware that very recently I was in A&E on a trolley at St Thomas’s for just under five hours waiting for a bed?
Earl Howe
My Lords, that does concern me. I do not think anyone could endorse the practice of patients remaining on trolleys. I hope my noble friend was seen and tended to in a timely manner, but what she describes does not sound to me as though it conforms with good clinical practice. However, I stress to her that the figures I have show that nationally hospitals as a whole are adhering to the new standards that have been set.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My Lords, do the Government recognise that, until the shortfall of 1,280 A&E consultants is met, the quality indicators will not be met because they require consultant sign-off? They must not be interpreted as rigid targets because of the variability of clinical scenarios that present. Indeed, the Primary Care Foundation report showed that this consultant shortfall must be met because only 15 to 25 per cent of attendances could be seen by co-located primary care. That figure is much lower than other people had previously estimated.
Baroness Hussein-Ece
My Lords, attendance at A&E has steadily gone up by more than 1.3 million over the past five years. How much is this the result of the lack of access to GP out-of-hours services? Is it not the case that too many people are presenting at A&E who should be seen at a primary care setting?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend completely. That is why we are quite clear that general practitioners have to take much greater direct responsibility for out-of-hours care. At the moment they can, if they choose, divorce themselves from that responsibility and I think that was a retrograde move. Equally, we are clear that we should encourage general practitioners to look at ways of avoiding unplanned emergency admissions to hospital in the first place. That will reduce pressure on A&E.
Lord Reid of Cardowan
My Lords, I declare an interest as the person who introduced the 18-week target and limit. Clinical outcomes and efficiency are important but equally important are the pain and distress of the patients—and often their families—in waiting a long time. The Minister refers to things being no worse than in the past but in the past the waiting time after diagnosis—not counting the first consultation with a consultant or GP—to operation was two years and three years for the whole patient journey. That has now been reduced to 18 weeks and six weeks after diagnosis. Does the Minister accept that it would be a tragedy, inflicting huge pain and distress on many people, if that was now to be abandoned?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I agree with much of what the noble Lord said. There is no doubt that great strides were made under the previous Government to reduce waiting times. That is entirely to the advantage of patients. However, the noble Lord will know that, as I mentioned earlier, the NHS constitution still retains the right for treatment within 18 weeks and the contracts between commissioners and providers still retain the financial penalties if the 18-week target is broken.
Baroness Wall of New Barnet
My Lords, will the Minister reflect on the discussion that he and I have had in the past around how important waiting times are to patients? Despite the new six-week “more quality” input into how the analysis is done and the processes to which my noble friend Lady Finlay has just referred, there is still an issue when people leave hospital. They say they waited longer. We need to rethink what that really means. In the context of waiting lists, if we separate elective and A&E, as my husband is proposing, then we will do away with all of that.
Earl Howe
My Lords, the central point that the noble Baroness makes is absolutely right. We have to look at quality in the round. There is more to quality than simply timeliness, although, as I have said, timeliness of treatment is important. We need to develop indicators that show the full range of the level of care and service that patients receive. We are doing that.
Elections: Alternative Vote System
(13 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Willis of Knaresborough
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what they estimate will be the cost of a general election held under the alternative vote system.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, the features and associated costs of holding a general election using the alternative vote system would broadly be the same as under the existing system. A notable exception to this is the count, which, depending on the extent of preferences expressed by voters, could take longer and lead to some additional costs.
Lord Willis of Knaresborough
I am grateful to my noble friend for that interesting Answer. There is undoubtedly a polarised debate about the future of our voting system. However, does my noble friend agree that it behoves politicians in both Houses of Parliament, particularly Ministers, when making statements to base them on facts and not simply make them up to further an argument? Will he state quite clearly today that there is no requirement in the legislation and no estimate in the Government's plans for any additional costs for electronic voting or electronic counting? Can he bury that argument?
Lord McNally
My Lords, reading very carefully, I say that we have no current plans to introduce electronic counting for the Westminster parliamentary elections. The Government have made no estimate of the costs of electronic counting for them.
Lord Campbell-Savours
Will the Minister confirm that the Scottish Government have introduced an electronic counting system for local government elections in Scotland, at a cost of £5 million next year—the contract has gone to a firm called Logica, which will be counting votes under STV and AV in by-elections—and that there is an electronic counting system operating in the London mayoral elections under SV, which is again a variation on the AV system? Is not electronic counting effectively inevitable in the end?
Lord McNally
My Lords, whether it is inevitable in the end I simply do not know. As to the other information that the noble Lord imparted to the House, I am sure that it will, as ever, be accurate.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, is not the Minister correct and the noble Lord opposite also correct? There are no current plans but it is inevitable.
Lord McNally
Nothing is inevitable, including the outcome of the AV referendum.
Lord Kinnock
Will the Minister confirm that in 90 years of using alternative voting in Australia, no one has ever proposed or used machines for voting or counting under such a system? Will he also confirm that if there were alternative voting in a general election in this country, there is no proposal from anyone, no provision and no finance allocated for the introduction of machine voting? Will he advise people on both sides of this argument that it is disreputable as well as misleading to the electorate to make repeated claims, as some have, that it is necessary and inevitable that machines are used in AV voting systems?
Lord McNally
Gosh, we are getting a lot of information today. This is all extremely useful for the electorate. In less than 48 hours, the power will pass to them. I have always been one of those politicians who trusts the people and I will wait to find out what they say. As to the earlier point on the Australian experience, the noble Lord is perfectly right.
Lord Howarth of Newport
As the noble Lord has just acknowledged, the reality is that under AV the count would take longer. Will it not be the case that if we were to have an AV system, people would expect to know the result of the general election quickly, as they are accustomed to do? For that reason, is the Minister not absolutely right that if we were to have AV it would be inevitable that we would have to invest in counting machines?
Lord McNally
I think we have already had at least three questions on that to which the answer was no. As the noble Lord will know from his experience on the AV Bill, the Government are remaining aloof from the debate itself. However, I found it interesting that a Political Studies Association author at the University of Reading thought that the introduction of AV would imply an annual cost across a five-year electoral cycle of around only 30p per person. That sounds to me like a bargain.
Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke
My Lords, is the Minister aware that in Australia, in certain tightly fought constituencies, it can take two weeks to declare the result? Is that acceptable?
Lord McNally
I often think that getting the right result is better than getting quick results. Even if it takes the Australians two weeks to get the right result, that is still the right way to do it.
Lord Peston
My Lords, is the Minister aware that electronic voting system machinery is irrelevant because elections under AV, which I sincerely hope we do not have, would not be decided by the electoral process at all? They would be decided in smoke-filled rooms. The equipment required would be the equipment needed to fumigate those rooms.
Lord McNally
The interest of this House in voting systems never fails to fascinate me, particularly from Members who will run a mile from voting for this House.
Standing Orders (Public Business)
(13 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That the standing orders relating to public business be amended as follows:
Companies Act 2006 (Consequential Amendments and Transitional Provisions) Order 2011
Lord De Mauley
That the draft order laid before the House on 3 March be approved.
Relevant document: 18th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 27 April.
Civil Contingencies Act 2004 (Amendment of List of Responders) Order 2011
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
That the draft order laid before the House on 28 February be approved.
Relevant document: 17th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 27 April.
European Union Bill
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, we are about to enter the Committee stage of the Bill. I know that the House will wish to help the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart. Will those leaving please do so quietly?
Clause 4 : Cases where treaty or Article 48(6) decision attracts a referendum
Amendment 20A
Lord Stoddart of Swindon
“( ) the accession of a new member State”
Lord Stoddart of Swindon
I thank the noble Baroness. It may be convenient for the House if I speak also to Amendment 23A.
It is extraordinary that the Bill should explicitly exclude a referendum on new accessions to the European Union. So far, many contributions to the debate have been concerned with minor changes, and that of course is correct. However, the issue of new countries joining the EU is surely a major matter of constitutional importance, as well as having policy implications.
The amendments would require a referendum to be held before the accession of any new country or group of new countries. Noble Lords will recall that in 1973 the United Kingdom joined a European Economic Community—it was then described as a common market—of six member countries. The electorate was told at that time that there would be no essential loss of sovereignty. At the subsequent referendum on whether the country would remain in the community it was told the same thing. The then Government of Harold Wilson assured the people that the veto protected Britain’s sovereignty, and that economic and monetary union had been specifically ruled out. We now know, of course, that it was not specifically ruled out, because it has since been ruled in.
The electorate certainly were not warned at that time that the EEC would grow into the European Union, with a threefold increase in membership, but there it is—the original six countries increased to nine and then to 12, and by increments the membership has now reached 27 members. The British electorate have had no say in these increases, and there has been only cursory examination, if I may say so, by Parliament. Yet the implications for Britain—financial, economic, social and political—have been profound. Many of the newly admitted countries have been poor and often backward, causing transfers of finance to be made between richer and poorer countries, to which the United Kingdom has had to make a very large contribution which the taxpayer has to meet. This year, that contribution will amount to £9.3 billion, and it will go on increasing over future years.
Then, of course, Britain’s influence in the EU is diluted as the number of member states and the total population grows due to the system of qualified majority voting, as well as social stresses and additional social costs arising from increased immigration. Noble Lords will also recall that during the most recent accessions, the Government gave assurances that immigration would be limited to about 12,000, but in the event it turned out to be hundreds of thousands.
Furthermore, experience has shown that as the EU has grown larger, additional significant new powers are demanded for the institutions of the Union on the basis that these are needed to cope with the additional size and complexity of the enlarged Union. Indeed, every new treaty has extended the power and influence of the European Union, especially the Single European Act, the TEU—the Maastricht treaty—Nice and Amsterdam, culminating, of course, in the Lisbon treaty which, according to Monsieur Valéry Giscard d’Estaing, incorporated everything, except for a few minor items, that was in the European constitution, which he masterminded.
So the issue of new accessions is of vital importance, and it is ongoing. There are at present four candidate countries—Croatia, the former republic of Macedonia, Turkey and Iceland. There are also five potential candidate countries—Albania, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kosovo, Montenegro and Serbia. They are all poorer countries; one of them is near-bankrupt and in danger of defaulting on its debts. Their combined population is nearly 100 million. Ninety per cent of Turkey, by far the largest of the applicants by population, is geographically in Asia, so the European Union would in my view—and in anyone else’s view, I imagine—be transformed by Turkey’s admission into a Eurasian union.
Lord Waddington
My Lords, I want Turkey and other states to accede but, like many others, I worry about whether a referendum would yield a yes vote. However, I must not emulate certain others and come down against referendums in this area for fear of the result. That indeed would be sinful. I want convincing arguments as to why referendums on accession treaties should be excluded, and I am worried about the strength of the arguments advanced so far. In particular, what about immigration? Do we not, when we agree to an accession treaty, cede more power to control immigration into this country? That is what worries me. I would just like an answer from my noble friend on that point.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, my name is to the amendment. I support it and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, on how he introduced it. In doing so, I put on record some of the background to new countries joining the EU, which will apply to any new country joining in the future.
One of the arguments put forward by those who support the project of undemocratic European integration is that all those eastern European countries voted for it and signed for it, Turkey and Croatia want to join, and so there cannot be anything wrong with it, can there? This argument avoids two essential ingredients in the story of what actually happened in those countries before they joined. The first was that the yes campaigns—the campaigns in favour of the country in question joining the EU—were massively better funded than the no campaigns. For instance, in Estonia, where I went once or twice in an attempt to help the no campaign, it was estimated that the yes campaign spent 60 times as much as the no campaign could afford and Brussels felt free to dispense taxpayers’ largesse on a large scale to the applicant nations’ yes campaigns. In Estonia, I regret to report that our Foreign Office funded a yes campaign battle bus, which distributed chocolate and whisky to happy Estonians. I saw that—it did happen, but I did not get any chocolate or whisky.
The second ingredient was less easy to spot and has received virtually no comment, which is that many of the political class in the applicant nations were keen for their countries to join the EU because they wanted jobs in Brussels, or at home, on the Brussels pay scale. The Polish ambassador in London at the time told me twice that 1,400 Poles got jobs in Brussels or Poland at a minimum of 10 times their previous salaries. Most of us would do quite a lot for 10 times our present income and so one cannot blame the politicians and bureaucrats in question in those countries for seeing EU membership as a very rosy project indeed. Whether it turns out to be so in the long term for the people whom they deceived remains to be seen. That is another of the powerful hidden factors at work with all those former communist countries and their desire to join the EU, and they will apply to any newcomers.
How does it look from our end? My noble friend Lord Stoddart has mentioned the 12,000 or 13,000 people who were estimated to come into this country after the applicant nations joined. I think that the final figure was more like 1 million. I hope that the Minister will give us an estimate of the number of people who came here. The Poles are wonderful people and I admire them tremendously. They are one of the greatest people on earth but I am not sure how the general influx from the new European countries affected our UK labour force. We had Mr Brown’s mendacious promise of British jobs for British workers, which never looked like being a starter while we remained in the EU and were unable to control our borders. More widely, we now know that our borders were deliberately taken down by the Blair Government. We are told by a civil servant who was involved at the time that they did so,
“to rub the noses of the right in diversity”.
What they may have done, in fact, is to condemn a great many of our working people to unemployment. I cannot believe that the present Government want to follow that route, so I would have thought that they would support this amendment.
Finally, we come to Turkey, to which my noble friend Lord Stoddart referred. I cannot see how the Government can say that they want to limit immigration to tens of thousands per annum and in the same breath say that they want Turkey to join the EU. I have to put another specific question to the Minister: if Turkey is admitted, will there be some long-term ban on Turkish immigration to this country? Will the right to free movement of persons be withheld from Turkey for a long period? Is that in the Government’s thinking when they say that they want Turkey to be in the EU, or are the Government saying simply that, “The project of European integration is wonderful; the more the merrier; and let’s have Turkey in”? One then has to ask, if there is to be such a hold on Turkish immigration, whether the Turkish people themselves will want to join the EU if they cannot come here—particularly here, given our generous welfare system. I look forward to the noble Lord’s answers. I support the amendment.
Baroness Brinton
My Lords, fascinating though the discussion about chocolate and whisky has been, I should like to return to the substance of the amendment and begin by mentioning the concerns over the figures relating to QMV. We perhaps overegg matters relating to the percentage change to the UK’s influence over further accessions. The UK currently has 12.33 per cent of the EU population. If Turkey, Croatia, Iceland and the western Balkans all joined the EU, the UK’s population would represent 10.33 per cent. Would a shift from 12.3 per cent to 10.3 per cent really warrant a referendum? Accession does not mean that we are losing our veto.
This provision is not needed in the Bill, because accession treaties do not transfer power or competence from the UK to Brussels; rather, that is relevant for the country that is joining. When a country wants to join, an Act of Parliament is required, as is required for all treaty changes. As an aside, I should say that accession of a country does not lead to the loss of the British veto in any area. We covered that at length earlier in Committee.
If the issue of a country joining were to be extremely sensitive, then of course a referendum could be called as part of the Act being passed by this Parliament. The referendum is there as a back-up on a particular issue, should our Parliament call upon it, but such a provision is not needed in the Bill.
Lord Dubs
My Lords, I remember the day some years ago when the A8 countries joined the EU. A celebration at Dublin Castle that I saw on television was a momentous occasion. Eight countries that had been under communism had opted for membership of the EU, a body that embraced democratic values. It demonstrated that those countries were turning their backs on their communist past and moving forward to join a Europe that was democratic and free. I was emotionally moved by watching that. I do not welcome much in the Bill, but I welcome the fact that the Government have sought not to require a referendum on the accession of new countries. That was a proper decision.
We have heard comments about some of the countries that would like to join. We have heard words such as, “the EU mopping up”, as if seeking to join was not the choice of those countries, but the EU demanding more members. We have heard expressions such as “polyglot” and “Eurasian”. They do not take the argument one jot further. The issue is surely whether it is appropriate to have a referendum, or whether decisions about accession should rightly be made by the British Parliament. I of course believe that they should be made by the British Parliament, which is a better place to make decisions, rather than by holding a referendum.
It is a lot easier when knocking on doors to say “Vote Labour for your local council” than it is to argue for the alternative vote, which I happen to favour. However, if one were to knock on doors and say to people, “Good afternoon; what do you think about Macedonia joining the European Union”, they would say, “Come off it, mate. What are you on about?” I cannot see the process happening or making any sense.
Turkey has been the subject of much discussion, and I hope that one day it will qualify to join the EU by meeting the standards of human rights, democracy, the rule of law, relative freedom from corruption, and so on. All of these will be positive assets and, in contrast to what has been said about Turkey being a mainly Muslim, albeit secular Muslim, country, its membership of the EU will be a positive source of strength to Europe, rather than a source of weakness. However, that is not the subject of this debate.
Decisions about future accession should be made by Parliament. They are not appropriate for referendums, and I hope that the Bill will continue to reflect that.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
I speak briefly against the amendment, pointing out two or three things. First, it is often overlooked that the founding treaty stated that any European country that fulfilled the criteria has the right to request membership. The supporters of the amendment appear to be moving it in order to be able to campaign against the accession of a European country which has been judged by all the members to be fulfilling the criteria. This will probably not worry them unduly as they want this country to leave the European Union, but they are going against a fundamental precept in the treaty.
The second point is that everyone is meant to be concerned about public expenditure nowadays, but if the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, is correct—I think he is roughly correct—that there are about eight candidates, he has just happily thrown away about £640 million, which is what it would cost to organise the eight referendums in this country, judging by the cost of the AV referendum. That seems a trifle feckless, if I may say so.
The third point, which is also relevant, is that if we were to have a referendum requirement for an accession, we would be saying that a British Government who had gone to whatever capital it was to sign the accession treaty which admitted country A would run the risk of being denied and having to go back to explain that country A could not become a member of the European Union because the referendum had come out negatively. That is an order of magnitude in damage to Britain's foreign policy rather greater than anything we have been discussing so far. Surely no one believes that our relationship with country A would ever be the same again after we had prevented it joining, following ourselves signing an accession treaty admitting them—that is the treaty in which all British interests, such as immigration, cost and so on would be taken into account, if the British Government of the day were worth their salt. That would be a really serious matter. I hope that the Government will not entertain the amendment.
Lord Willoughby de Broke
My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, and encourage him. There are respectable precedents for referendums on accession of members in the EU. Indeed, in 2005, Mr Chirac promised the French electorate a referendum on accession of any new member into the European Union. I believe that that has been negatived by the French Senate but, knowing French politics, it could easily come back. That does not square with what the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said: that the amendment is against the words of the founding treaty. If the French can offer their people a referendum, surely we could do the same. I understand that Bulgaria has, under a citizens' initiative, now raised sufficient signatures to propose a referendum to their Government on the membership of Turkey, in particular, which may affect Bulgaria more than some other countries.
I hope that this modest amendment will be acceptable to the Government. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, said that no powers are given away by further members acceding to the EU. That is not quite accurate. The more individual members there are, the more powers we are giving away on immigration, for example, because we no longer control our borders, as the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, said, in his opening remarks. There are also financial implications, depending on the financial situation of the countries involved. We are definitely in danger of giving away powers by allowing new members in, without the British people having any say whatsoever on whether they want to give those powers away or not.
Lord Tomlinson
My Lords, in some of the things that have been said so far on this amendment—an amendment to which I am opposed—there has been an implication that every application for accession has been from a poor country coming along with its begging bowl. Since we became a member, Sweden, Austria and Finland have all joined the Community; it has not been a magnet attracting just poor countries. We have had the incredible spectacle of almost every country in Europe wanting to join the European Union not on the basis of what they can put into it or get out of it—one thinks of the famous Thatcher question, “Can we get our money back?”—but because they see it as an important political structure and believe that they will be weakened if they are not part of it.
The other small point that I want to make is that there has been some rather derogatory insinuation about countries such as Turkey. I seem to recall that just over 50 years ago Turkey was one of the founder members of the Council of Europe, and it has played an active role as a member of the Council of Europe throughout our time as a member. So successful has its engagement with the Council of Europe been that at present the Committee of Ministers is chaired by Turkey—a position that we will be taking over later in the year. Turkey currently holds the presidency of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe and has been elected by the membership covering every European country except Belarus, which has been excluded on the grounds of its incapacity to fulfil the requirements of democracy and, in particular, to abolish capital punishment. Turkey plays a very active, involved, respected and well regarded role, and it is rewarded in terms of the power and authority given to some of our participants. Therefore, I hope that in future we can absolve ourselves from making cheap and snide remarks about countries which are in fact our allies, not only in the Council of Europe but in NATO.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I wish to make three basic points. First, the whole essence of the European Union Bill concerns the transfer of powers and competences. As has clearly been stated by noble Lords before, the amendment does not relate to a transfer of power or competence and so remains firmly outside the scope of the Bill. Secondly, as has been made clear, the amendment, which is on the subject of accession, does not dilute the importance of the British veto, so again in my view it should not be taken forward. Thirdly, I align myself with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, on the question that you pose about accession. He gave Macedonia as an example but what if several countries were joining and, having knocked on doors, you found that two people liked one country and one did not like another? What kind of response would you get to that? Therefore, let us put this issue into context. The European Union Bill is important but the amendment should certainly not constitute a key part of it.
Lord Richard
I should like to make one or two brief points. I have listened with great care, as I always do, to the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, and the noble Lords on the back row behind me. They have an argument. Within the logic of the Bill, it is perfectly legitimate to argue that, if you are to have a referendum on the powers of the European public prosecutor, it is logical—indeed, it is perhaps more logical—to have a referendum on new entrants to the European Union. I can see that argument, although it does not take us very far because you then have to look at the logic of the Bill. As my view is very firmly that the Bill is pretty illogical however you look at it, that the way in which it is set out is absurd and that its demands of the country in terms of referenda is ludicrous, I cannot possibly support the amendment.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
My Lords, the argument advanced in favour of a referendum appears to be based on the fear of European Union enlargement. It seems to me that to cite the circumstances in which a referendum were held in the days of Harold Wilson is to talk about a history that is, practically speaking, irrelevant to the present. That referendum was caused not so much by the issues which were in front of the British people, but by the recognition that the elected Government were drawing upon very divided views and did not have a coherent, united position to put before the British people. It seems to me that that was an exceptional circumstance and not one which should require us to have an automatic response built into legislation for circumstances which will be very different.
The fear of enlargement seems to be entirely misplaced. In a world in which decisions are increasingly being taken by economic superpowers—China, India, Brazil and the United States—surely it is very important for the protection of British trading and economic interests that we should come together to seek to exercise influence on the shape of global decision-making. Not to do something about that seems to me to be much more of a potential threat than the possibility of a number of people coming into this country to work, particularly when, for the most part, those who come here are either highly skilled and therefore add to the collective skills of the country, or carry out work which it is quite difficult to persuade other British people to do. Candidly, it seems to me that the prospects for the European Union will be considerably greater if we recognise that, in due course, Turkey and the other countries mentioned will add to our total influence and wealth as well as broaden our cultural base. That is not in any way to belittle the individuality of the nations of the United Kingdom; the Union is already a multi-ethnic body, which is concerned for its own defence, and which is concerned to influence the standard of living in other parts of the world and to bring to bear a beneficent concern for global matters. That is far beyond the original intentions. Of course, that is a natural development of a civilised continent.
In passing, I say that the greatest change in the well-being of the countries of Europe came about after the collapse of the Roman empire. If anyone doubts that, I suggest they should read the excellent book by Bryan Ward-Perkins on The Fall of Rome and the End of Civilization. North Africa had provided very considerably for the elevation of the standard of living of those who lived in Britain. It manufactured the china which was exported right around the Mediterranean. The concept that our standard of life or the employment of our people are at risk of being dragged down by enlarging the influence of the Union seems to me to be entirely unhistorical and misconceived.
Osama bin Laden
(13 years, 7 months ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I hope that this is a convenient moment to repeat a Statement made by the Prime Minister in another place on the death of Osama bin Laden and counterterrorism.
“Mr Speaker, the death of Osama bin Laden will have important consequences for the security of our people at home and abroad and for our foreign policy, including our partnership with Pakistan, our military action in Afghanistan and the wider fight against terrorism across the world. Last night, I chaired a meeting of COBRA to begin to address some of these issues, the National Security Council has met this morning, and I wanted to come to the House this afternoon to take the first opportunity to address these consequences directly and answer honourable Members' questions.
At 3 am yesterday, I received a call from President Obama. He informed me that US special forces had successfully mounted a targeted operation against a compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan. Osama bin Laden had been killed, along with four others: bin Laden's son, two others linked to him and a female member of his family entourage. There was a ferocious firefight and a US helicopter had to be destroyed, but there was no loss of American life.
I am sure that the whole House will join me in congratulating President Obama and praising the courage and skill of the American special forces who carried out this operation. It is a strike at the heart of international terrorism and a great achievement for America and for all who have joined in the long struggle to defeat al-Qaeda. We should remember today in particular the brave British service men and women who have given their lives in the fight against terrorism across the world, and we should pay tribute especially to those British forces who have played their part over the past decade in the hunt for bin Laden. He was the man responsible for 9/11, which was not only an horrific killing of Americans but remains to this day the largest loss of British life in any terrorist attack: a man who inspired further atrocities, including in Bali, Madrid, Istanbul and of course here in London on 7/7; and, let us remember, a man who posed as a leader of Muslims but was actually a mass murderer of Muslims all over the world—indeed, he killed more Muslims than people of any other faith.
Nothing will bring back the loved ones who have been lost, and of course no punishment at our disposal can remotely fit the many appalling crimes for which he was responsible; but I hope that, at least for the victims' families, there is now a sense of justice being served as a long, dark chapter in their lives is finally closed. As the head of a family group for United Airlines Flight 93 put it, we are,
‘raised, obviously, never to hope for someone's death’,
but we are,
‘willing to make an exception in this case ... He was evil personified, and our world is a better place without him’.
Britain was with America from the first day of the struggle to defeat al-Qaeda. Our resolve today is as strong as it was then. There can be no impunity and no safe refuge for those who kill in the name of this poisonous ideology. Our first focus must be on our own security. While bin Laden is gone, the threat of al-Qaeda remains. Clearly there is a risk that al-Qaeda and its affiliates in places such as Yemen and the Maghreb will want to demonstrate that they are able to operate effectively; and, of course, there is always the risk of a radicalised individual acting alone—a so-called lone-wolf attack. So we must be more vigilant than ever, and we must maintain that vigilance for some time to come.
The terrorist threat level in the UK is already at severe, which is as high as it can go without intelligence of a specific threat. We will keep that threat level under review, working closely with the intelligence agencies and the police.
In terms of people travelling overseas, we have updated our advice and encourage British nationals to monitor the media carefully for local reactions, remain vigilant, exercise caution in public places and avoid demonstrations. We have ordered our embassies across the world to review their security.
Let me turn next to Pakistan. The fact that bin Laden was living in a large house in a populated area suggests that he must have had a support network in Pakistan. We do not currently know the extent of that network, so it is right that we ask searching questions about it, and we will. But let us start with what we do know.
Pakistan has suffered more from terrorism than any other country in the world. As President Zardari and Prime Minister Gilani said to me when I spoke to them yesterday, as many as 30,000 innocent civilians have been killed. More Pakistani soldiers and security forces have died fighting extremism than have international forces killed in Afghanistan. Osama bin Laden was an enemy of Pakistan. He had declared war against the Pakistani people, and he had ordered attacks against them.
President Obama said in his statement that,
‘counterterrorism cooperation with Pakistan helped lead us to bin Laden and the compound where he was hiding’.
Continued co-operation will be just as important in the days ahead. I believe that it is in Britain's national interest to recognise that we share the same struggle against terrorism. That is why we will continue to work with our Pakistani counterparts on intelligence gathering, tracing plots and taking action to stop them. That is why we will continue to honour our aid promises, including our support for education as a critical way of helping the next generation of Pakistanis to turn their back on extremism and look forward to a brighter and more prosperous future. Above all, it is why we were one of the founder members of the Friends of Democratic Pakistan, because it is by working with the democrats in Pakistan that we can make sure the whole country shares the same determination to fight terror.
I also spoke yesterday to President Karzai in Afghanistan. We both agreed that the death of bin Laden provides a new opportunity for Afghanistan and Pakistan to work together to achieve stability on both sides of the border. Our strategy towards Afghanistan is straightforward and has not changed. We want an Afghanistan capable of looking after its own security without the help of foreign forces. We should take this opportunity to send a clear message to the Taliban; now is the time for them to separate themselves from al-Qaeda and participate in a peaceful political process.
The myth of bin Laden was one of a freedom fighter, living in austerity and risking his life for the cause as he moved around in the hills and mountainous caverns of the tribal areas. The reality of bin Laden was very different: a man who encouraged others to make the ultimate sacrifice while he himself hid in the comfort of a large, expensive villa in Pakistan, experiencing none of the hardship he expected his supporters to endure.
Finally, let me briefly update the House on Libya. In recent weeks we have stepped up our air campaign to protect the civilian population. Every element of Gaddafi's war machine has been degraded. Over the last few days alone, NATO aircraft have struck 35 targets including tanks and armoured personnel carriers, as well as bunkers and ammunition storage facilities. We have also made strikes against his command and control centres, which direct his operations against civilians. Over the weekend there were reports that in one of those strikes Colonel Gaddafi’s son, Saif al-Arab Gaddafi, was killed. All the targets chosen were clearly within the boundaries set by UN Resolutions 1970 and 1973. These resolutions permit all necessary measures to protect civilian life, including attacks on command and control bases.
This weekend also saw attacks on the British and Italian embassies. We utterly deplore this. The Gaddafi regime is in clear beach of the Vienna convention to protect diplomatic missions. We hold it fully to account, and we have already expelled the Libyan ambassador from London. The British embassy was looted as well as destroyed, the World War Two memorial was desecrated, and the UN has felt obliged to pull its people out for fear of attack. Gaddafi made much of his call for a ceasefire, but at the very moment Gaddafi claimed he wanted to talk he had in fact been laying mines in Misrata harbour to stop humanitarian aid getting in and continuing his attacks on civilians, including attacks across the border in neighbouring Tunisia. We must continue to enforce the UN resolutions fully until such a time as they are completely complied with, and that means continuing the NATO mission until there is an end to all attacks on and threats to civilians.
Bin Laden and Gaddafi were said to have hated each other, but there was a common thread running between them. They both feared the idea that democracy and civil rights could take hold in the Arab world. While we should continue to degrade, dismantle and defeat the terrorist networks, a big part of the long-term answer is the success of democracy in the Middle East and the conclusion of the Arab-Israeli peace process. For 20 years, bin Laden claimed that the future of the Muslim world would be his, but what Libya has shown, as Egypt and Tunisia showed before it, is that people are rejecting everything that bin Laden stood for. Instead of replacing dictatorship with his extremist totalitarianism, they are choosing democracy.
Ten years on from the terrible tragedy of 9/11, with the end of bin Laden and the democratic awakening across the Arab world, we must seize this unique opportunity to deliver a decisive break with the forces of al-Qaeda and its poisonous ideology, which has caused so much suffering for so many years. I commend this Statement to the House”.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I am grateful to the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement made by the Prime Minister in another place. I join him in strongly endorsing the sentiments expressed by President Obama yesterday. This side of the House wholeheartedly supports the action taken by the United States to bring Osama bin Laden to justice. We are grateful to President Obama for taking the decision and to the US Special Forces who carried it out. At this time, we remember the harrowing scenes of death and destruction on 9/11 and we remember too all the other atrocities carried out by al-Qaeda before 9/11 and since, including in Nairobi, Dar es Salaam, Bali, Istanbul, Madrid, Amman and, of course, the 7/7 bombings here in London.
So, my Lords, the world is a safer and better place without bin Laden commanding or inciting acts of terror and we should never fall for the idea that he somehow stood for a particular community of faith. In each case, the objective was the same: to kill and maim as many innocent men, women and children as possible of all faiths and all backgrounds. Our response now must be to seek to use this moment not to claim premature victory in the fight against terrorists but to heal the divisions that he sought to create. We should do that by rooting out the perpetrators of terror, by reaching out to all those willing to accept the path of peace and at the same time by ensuring continuing vigilance here at home.
All sides of the House will welcome the co-operative and calm response of the Pakistani Government over the past 48 hours, but there remains, of course, a great deal of uncertainty about who was aware of bin Laden’s presence and location in Pakistan, especially given his proximity to Pakistani military bases. As the Leader of the House said, it is right that we ask searching questions, but it is also right that we continue our aid promises. Can the noble Lord shed any light on how long it is believed that bin Laden was based in Abbottabad and who contributed to the support network that allowed him to hide there? Pakistan’s leaders continue to take a brave stance against terrorism. Will the Leader of the House say whether, when the Prime Minister talked to President Zardari and Prime Minister Gilani, he discussed the need to ensure that the security apparatus fully supports Pakistan’s anti-terrorist efforts?
The developments of this weekend remind us of why we took military action in Afghanistan, which under the Taliban gave shelter to bin Laden and al-Qaeda. But they should also reinforce the need for a lasting political settlement in Afghanistan as the only long-term guarantee of peace and security. Does the Leader of the House agree that we need a greater urgency in the search for a political solution and that we should engage with those parts of the Taliban that are ready to renounce violence? Will he tell the House whether he thinks that there are ways in which we can sharpen the choice facing the Taliban, including by deepening the political process in Afghanistan?
Turning to Yemen and al-Qaeda’s remaining strongholds, we must do everything we can to combat terrorism and increase pressure on their supporters. We must also support movements that make it less likely that terrorism will take root. It is clear that the most effective long-term answer to al-Qaeda’s ideology of hatred is being provided by the peoples of North Africa and the Middle East. During the Arab spring they have not been turning to an ideology of hate but are demanding the right to control their own destinies with democratic reform and economic progress. We welcome that wholeheartedly.
I should be grateful if the Leader of the House could update the House on progress that has been made in consolidating the democratic gains in Egypt and Tunisia. Will he also say what is being done to ensure that those Arab leaders who have promised reform stick to their commitments and to force those still resorting to violence and repression, as in Syria, to stop?
Where Libya is concerned, it is clear that we cannot abandon the Libyan people to Colonel Gaddafi’s revenge. Will the Leader of the House take this opportunity to reassure the House that in our words as well as our actions it will be clear that in all steps we take we are acting within the terms of UN Security Council Resolution 1973? Does the noble Lord agree that doing so is right in principle and essential to maintaining regional support for action to enforce the will of the UN Security Council?
Turning to Israel-Palestine, does the noble Lord agree that the reaction of Hamas calling the killing of bin Laden an example of American oppression is deeply regrettable? Does he agree that we should continue to make efforts to restart the Middle East peace process with those willing to endorse the quartet principles? Will he say what discussions the Government have had with President Obama and the other leaders on this important area?
Finally, I support the call made in the Prime Minister’s Statement for UK citizens to show increased vigilance at this time. Al-Qaeda has suffered a serious blow but it remains a threat. I therefore offer thanks to the police and the security services which work tirelessly in public and behind the scenes to keep us safe.
My Lords, 9/11 was one of the most horrific events of our generation. For the victims and their families, including in this country, nothing can remove the pain. But the death of Osama bin Laden sends out a clear message that in the face of terrorist acts the world will not rest until justice is done.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for what she has said. Over the past 10 years, there has been much agreement between the Government, the Opposition and both sides of the House—if I can put it like that. That support, which the noble Baroness gave today, does not stop the Opposition from offering effective scrutiny of the Government and their actions. I welcome the strong support she gave for the Statement and her fulsome support for the presence of the United States and American Special Forces with their particular courage and clearly very careful planning of this extraordinary operation.
The noble Baroness was also right to remember 9/11, which was almost 10 years ago, and so many of the other atrocities that took place, very often in the name of bin Laden and organised by al-Qaeda. It is equally right that all sides of the House have welcomed the calm response of the Pakistani Government to what has happened. Naturally there is still uncertainty about who knew what and when about bin Laden’s presence in what is, by all accounts, a well-to-do area in Pakistan not far from one of its key military academies. The noble Baroness asked how long bin Laden was present in his villa. We do not as yet know exactly when he arrived there but there is real speculation that he could have been there living in Pakistan for some years.
The noble Baroness also asked whether Pakistan, and particularly its security forces, fully supported the counter-terrorism effort. Unequivocally the answer is yes. There is a great deal of realisation about the harm and damage that terrorism has inflicted on the people of Pakistan. There is a real desire across the Government, working with the army and the internal security forces, to achieve a solution. The removal of bin Laden from the equation will be of substantial support in reaching that conclusion.
The noble Baroness was also right to say that there needs to be a political solution to the problems of Afghanistan. We have never believed that the problems of Afghanistan could be dealt with purely by the military. Indeed, the fundamental reason why we are in Afghanistan is to safeguard our national security. Our involvement in the ISAF mission is helping to deny terrorists a safe haven from which to plan attacks against us. We want the Afghanistan Government to be in control of their own security and there is now an opportunity for the Taliban to divorce itself from the work of al-Qaeda and to work towards a political goal and a political dialogue with the Afghanistan Government for the long-term interests of their people.
The noble Baroness also asked about Yemen. It is a sign, in all of the countries she mentioned, of just how much the “Arab spring”, as it is increasingly called, has spread right across North Africa and the Middle East. We welcome the Gulf Co-operation Council initiative in Yemen and we encourage the Government and the Opposition to seize the opportunity and to work hard towards finalising an agreement. The UK Government are ready to support a comprehensive national dialogue which would allow for a peaceful transition of power. We support the sovereignty of Yemen and the unity and democracy which its Government have built up in the past 30 years. Now is the time for real and credible change and the creation of a more open political system.
The noble Baroness asked whether I would confirm that everything that is being done in Libya is in accordance with UN Security Council Resolution 1973. I can confirm to her that that is our complete understanding of everything that has been done. Military command and control centres have been targeted and all loss of life is to be regretted. However, we cannot be responsible for those who put themselves in harm’s way. We are trying to defend and protect the interests of the civilian population in Misrata, who are being attacked by Gaddafi’s forces.
The noble Baroness asked about an Arab-Israeli resolution. She is aware of how hard in recent years all Governments have been working to try to reach a resolution to this conflict. With the death of bin Laden and the uprisings in Syria and other countries in the Middle East, it may well be that instability may also paradoxically create the right conditions to seek a more peaceful solution. We are all working together with the United States and other countries to bring that about.
Finally, the noble Baroness asked about increased vigilance. She is right: if there is one message to take out of this Statement it is that, even with the death of bin Laden, we have not defeated terrorism. Terrorism will continue and there may well be those inside al-Qaeda or other terrorist organisations who will see this as an opportunity to demonstrate that they are still active and have the ability to react in an appalling way. Vigilance will be key. I join the noble Baroness in congratulating British police and security forces on the work that they do, very often unsung, for the protections that have already taken place. I very much hope that they will succeed in doing so in the future.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
My Lords, from these Benches I join the Leader of the Opposition in congratulating President Obama and US special forces on closing the chapter that started on 11 September 2001. That chapter shook the Muslim world to its very core, as well as obviously affecting the United States and other countries. We need to recall that Pakistan is an extremely fragile state. As its friend, we may not wish to question its commitment to countering terrorism but we must be clear about its capability to do so. In that context, I am extremely pleased to hear in the Statement that we will resist siren calls in the media today about maintaining our aid, practical assistance, intelligence co-operation and so on. I hope the Government will continue to be steadfast in that aim.
We must not allow friendship to withhold candid conversations about the role of the ISI and defence intelligence. My father was a member of that community, so I well know that it would have been pretty impossible for Mr bin Laden to live there undetected for as long as he did. We must also work to improve relations between Pakistan and Afghanistan. Peace in Afghanistan will not come if al-Qaeda or the Taliban are simply displaced to Pakistan. I hope that our Government will continue their efforts to bring the two countries into a constructive working relationship. Can my noble friend tell me if we are also working towards a resumption of dialogue between Pakistan and India? All three countries are essential if regional peace and security is to be secured in that most dangerous region.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her intelligent and thoughtful observations and questions. She is right that Pakistan is a fragile state. It also needs a great deal of support. With that support, there is no reason why in the long term Pakistan should not become a more stable and prosperous country in what has been a difficult part of the world for some years. The noble Baroness is also right that we firmly reject any siren calls about cutting our aid to Pakistan. If anything, this makes our aid programme even more important and significant. It is aimed largely at education and we believe that one way at least to improve governance and quality for people in Pakistan is to raise the standards and quality of education. Many hundreds of millions of pounds are being spent on that.
There is another reason: links between Pakistan and the United Kingdom are extremely strong. There are family groups extending between Pakistan and the United Kingdom. Thirdly, there is the whole problem of what we have seen in the past as radicalisation and the growth of home-grown terrorism in the United Kingdom. All these reasons lead us to believe that aid to Pakistan is extremely justified. I also agree with the point about India. The answer to that question is, yes, we are actively involved in trying to improve relations between India and Pakistan. Anybody who knows anything about world affairs over the past 50 years will recognise just how difficult that is but there are some causes for optimism, which I hope will grow.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Would the noble Lord indicate in outline the instructions which have been given to the police, especially the Metropolitan Police? A great deal of uncertainty exists at present about the review which the Government propose to carry out into the numbers of the police. Do they not have an especial duty at present and is it not right that the review should be curtailed, because interference with their duties is a dereliction of duty to us?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I do not follow the noble Lord at all. It is true that the police have a number of challenges to face up to. They will always have those but I am extremely confident that they are able to carry out their duties. We carried out a strategic defence and security review to set out our security priorities in full; the resources allocated to the UK’s security and intelligence agencies reflect that assessment of priorities. That includes the work by the police, most importantly the Metropolitan Police.
Lord Thomas of Swynnerton
My Lords, it is difficult to think of a precedent for this action, carried out so successfully and competently by the American special services; I suppose there was Entebbe, carried out by the Israelis so many years ago. Bearing that in mind, were there to be similar circumstances in future with the desire to finish off an enemy in a foreign country, as there well may be, would the Government support the idea of capturing the person concerned and keeping him to be tried and brought to justice in a different way, as has happened with some war criminals in the past?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Swynnerton, raises an entirely legitimate question which many people will ask, particularly on the precedent for this. My view is that this was a brilliantly planned and executed operation and my understanding at this stage—no doubt we will get more information—is that there was an opportunity to surrender. It is not always possible to capture people alive. Notwithstanding that, there is of course the whole question of jurisdiction, a place of trial, et cetera. In the event, what the noble Lord suggested is not what happened and we have to live in the world as we find it. No doubt there will be questions of legality for the United States, but those are between the Pakistani authorities and the United States and I am not in a position to comment.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
The Leader is right that we should rejoice at this great achievement but the focus has perhaps now moved to the Yemen. What is our view about the role of al-Qaeda in the overthrow of President Saleh and the likely degree of co-operation that we shall receive from any successor regime in the fight against it? On Libya, France has already recognised formally the new authority in Benghazi. Are we and other EU countries considering that same action? Finally, on the Palestine-Israel question, the noble Lord will know that Palestinian statehood and recognition is very much on the agenda and will reach the General Assembly of the UN in September. What preliminary consideration are we giving of our position at that time?
Lord Strathclyde
On that last question, my Lords, no doubt there will be much debate and discussion internally and at the Foreign Office about what our position should be in the debate that takes place in September. However, we have been an integral part of the process for many years now; it is something to which the British Government attach great importance. We wish to see a resolution, and there is an opportunity for such a resolution. The United Kingdom Government will leave no stone unturned in playing a full part in the dialogue.
The noble Lord was also interested in the question of Yemen. The UK Government are fully committed to a united Yemen with a stable and prosperous future. We continue to encourage the international community to focus its attention there. Indeed, we are one of the largest bilateral donors to Yemen and in August 2007 we signed a 10-year partnership agreement to try to help to improve the quality of life within that country.
We are deeply concerned about the growth of al-Qaeda in Yemen. The Government of Yemen have committed publicly to combating terrorism, both inside and outside Yemen, and have conducted successful operations, including against members of al-Qaeda in Yemen. We must do everything that we can to encourage that process and that success, because it is an extremely dangerous part of the world and al-Qaeda there has almost succeeded in inflicting terrorist outrages outside Yemen.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for repeating the Statement. Like many in this House and beyond, I welcome the removal of an individual who preached hate and promoted the taking of innocent lives by hijacking a noble faith. I think Muslims around the world welcome his removal from the face of the earth.
I ask my noble friend to reflect and perhaps comment further on the point that, while the Pakistani nation—indeed, the Pakistani Government themselves—has taken steps to address terrorism and the breeding of terrorism, our Government must implore that it continues to take more stringent steps to stop those terrorist camps, including those that allegedly go under the guise of educational institutions, nurturing further terrorists who then breed not just discontent but terror around the world, indeed the kind of terror that we ourselves suffered from in this very country on 7/7.
Lord Strathclyde
I thank my noble friend for what he has said. I agree with his words about Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda promoting hate. I also agree with his comment that the Government of Pakistan need to be encouraged to take all steps to deal with terrorism, terrorist education and terrorist camps. Above all, the Pakistani Government are aware of the damage that terrorism has inflicted on their own country and on their own people—their civilians and their armed forces—who have worked extremely hard over the past few years and have suffered terribly.
There is an opportunity today and in the next few months for the Pakistani Government to use the death of Osama bin Laden to turn the page on the past, redouble their steps to eradicate terrorism and co-operate with international organisations and with neighbouring countries to remove this scourge from the region.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, will the Minister accept my welcome for the Statement, which indicates that there could be an opportunity now to bring the Taliban into a political process, which will be valuable for all concerned in Afghanistan? In that context, will he give some study to a panel report from Mr Brahimi— he helped to set up the present Government of Afghanistan—and Ambassador Thomas Pickering, which was submitted in the United States a few weeks ago? It suggested that a key element in a political process could be appointing a facilitator who was not NATO, the US military or President Karzai, and who could help to move the process forward, perhaps under the aegis of the United Nations. I think that that is a genuinely sensible idea; it is one which Mr David Miliband has supported on a number of occasions. I hope that the Government will give that some consideration in the phase ahead.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I have not read this report, but I am sure that my colleagues in the Foreign Office have. I agree with the noble Lord that there is an opportunity facing the region to use this point in time to do things differently. It is particularly an opportunity for the Taliban to cast itself away from the programme of violence of al-Qaeda and to involve itself in a political process.
The report that the noble Lord mentioned strikes me as having a very sensible objective. I shall make sure that the Foreign Office examines it.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, reverting to the very reasonable point made by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, does my noble friend not agree that Osama bin Laden in prison could have been an even greater danger than Osama bin Laden in hiding? Is it not entirely right, and a great relief, that he has been killed, and that he was buried in such a seemly manner so that his body cannot be the centre of a shrine?
Lord Strathclyde
Given that there was not much time to plan these events, I entirely agree with what my noble friend says about the burial of bin Laden’s body. It was done, I understand, fully in accordance with the teachings of Islam, and it was done quickly and effectively. As my noble friend pointed out, there is the added advantage that there is no shrine to visit for those who regard bin Laden as a leader.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, can the Leader of the House add to the Statement in relation to Syria? The Statement did not, I think, refer to Syria, where over the weekend there have been some very alarming reports not only about the targeting of unarmed civilians on the streets of its towns but also, just as alarming, about the arrest of young men between the ages of 15 and 40 who seem to have been taken away and put in places without their families being given any information about what has happened to them.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I welcome the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Symons of Vernham Dean. She is right to mention Syria, where there is an immensely serious and developing situation. We call for an immediate end to attacks against civilians by the Syrian security forces. The Syrian authorities and their forces should comply with their obligations under international law, international humanitarian law and human rights law, including protecting civilians and meeting their basic needs. We ask President Assad to order his authorities to show restraint and to respond to the legitimate demands of his people with immediate and genuine reform, not with brutal repression. We really do want to see acts of genuine reform and not repression. We are keeping a very close eye on developments in what is clearly a fast-moving picture. There is every opportunity, and time, for President Assad to change the direction of his forces and try to seek an opportunity for genuine reform in Syria, which is an extremely important country.
Lord Maples
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that our aid programme and friendly relationship with Pakistan must continue. However, these events will alter that relationship and that of the United States with Pakistan, which is perhaps more important. First, I suspect there will be turmoil in Pakistan over what has happened and the death of Osama bin Laden, which may well lead to the fall of the Government.
Secondly, and perhaps more importantly from an American or British point of view, my noble friend said that we will get to the bottom of what happened. However, it seems inconceivable that, without at least the tacit approval of some elements of the Pakistani state, Osama bin Laden could have survived for so long, living in the way that he did in a town less than 100 miles from Islamabad. When we get to the bottom of that, it will almost certainly confirm what many of us have suspected for ages—that elements of the Pakistani state are extremely friendly to the Afghan Taliban. They may want to fight the Taliban operating in Pakistan, but they make a distinction for the Afghan Taliban and are more friendly to it. This will be caught red-handed. Pakistan, whatever its Government, must now be confronted with this problem if we are to continue our friendly relationship with it in an effort to exterminate terrorism from that part of the world and from our own.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, because of the problems that my noble friend pointed out, it is vital for the United Kingdom to maintain and increase the closeness of the relationship between our country and Pakistan. After all, this is a shared fight—a fight against global terrorism in which Pakistan finds itself on the front line. It is right to record that the Government of Pakistan have formally welcomed the news of the death of bin Laden. The question of who knew what will unfold over the next few weeks and months. With that clarity, no doubt different people will take different views. What does not change is that Pakistan needs a great deal of support, which the United Kingdom is happy to give.
European Union Bill
(13 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Radice
Before my noble friend gets up, I rise to oppose both the tone and the principle of Amendment 20A. I oppose the tone because, as several noble Lords have pointed out, enlargement has been exceptionally good not only for the European Union but for Britain’s interests. As my noble friend Lord Tomlinson pointed out, some jolly rich countries have joined and have been our allies in some of our negotiations over such issues as the budget and the reform of the CAP. The so-called poorer countries are mostly former members of the Soviet bloc, nearly all of which have joined. They have become more prosperous as a result of being members of the European Union, particularly Poland, which is one of the great success stories. This is not just about Polish plumbers coming to France and Britain; it is also about the standard of living and growth rate in Poland increasing considerably. It is a big success story. Let us hear more about it from the Ministers. I hope to hear the Minister say something about enlargement, as it is a good thing.
Enlargement also buttresses democracy in these countries. To be a member of the European Union a country must be a democracy. This is a tremendous weapon that we and the European Union have in changing and underwriting the whole issue of democracy in Europe. Therefore, I oppose the tone of what we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart. I also oppose this amendment.
Lord Radice
I am going to say something nice about the noble Lords if the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, will be quiet. I oppose the principle of the amendment because I do not believe that it should be written in the Bill that we ought to have referendums when countries join. That is not only a question of practicality; Parliament should decide this issue. The French have referendums if the Government and Parliament decide that something is not part of their constitution. Here I come to my compliment. In an odd way the noble Lords, Lord Stoddart and Lord Pearson, have done the House a service as they have once again highlighted the very curious nature of this Bill. On the one hand we have 56 policy areas that trigger referendums, and we have all had great fun pointing out that some of them are rather minor issues. On the other hand, on the big European issues of enlargement and membership of the European Union itself it is not written in the Bill that if we want to leave the European Union we have to have a referendum. I would have thought that a Eurosceptic Government might be interested in that but the Government have very sensibly not gone down that road, perhaps because they are in a coalition with the Liberal Democrats. I do not support this amendment, but its movers, my old friend Lord Stoddart and the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, have done the House a service as they have reminded us once again of the gross inadequacy of this Bill.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
We are in Committee and I do not think that I even have to say, “Before the noble Lord sits down”. I was going to thank the noble Lord for the compliment that he paid my noble friend and me, but is he aware of one of the very few jokes about the European Union that is going about in Eurosceptic circles? I ask this given that he extolled the virtues of democracy which the EU brings to its new members. The joke is that if the EU were to apply to itself to join the EU it would fail on the grounds of its total lack of democracy, its bureaucracy with its monopoly on proposing new legislation—what body that pretends to be vaguely democratic can do that?—and, as we know, the secret process with COREPER, the Council and so on. How can he extol the virtues of the EU’s democracy, given that background?
Lord Lamont of Lerwick
My Lords, I frequently agree with some, but not all, the views put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart. However, on this occasion I agree more with some of the points made by the noble Lords, Lord Radice and Lord Richard. I agree that enlargement has been a positive development. Indeed, if you have an organisation called the European Union, it is unthinkable that you should exclude from it countries that before the advent of communism in Europe were part of the European family of nations, many of which had living standards and political systems similar to those in western Europe.
Some years ago I took part in a debate on the European Union with my noble friend Lord Brittan, who I am pleased to see sitting beside me. I think that the debate took place in 1993 or 1994, and I remember that my noble friend attacked me because I had not said a single positive thing about the European Union in my speech. I could not think of a single positive thing to say about the European Union at that time. However, if I took part in another such debate with my noble friend, I would say that enlargement is a considerable development that has been advantageous to the countries that have joined and to Europe generally.
If I may say so, the noble Lord, Lord Richard, made a good point that slightly bothered me. I support the Bill, but he said that within the logic of what he called this “crazy Bill” there surely ought to be a referendum on enlargement, given that we might have a referendum on altering the procedures for the appointment of a public prosecutor and other matters that the noble Lord regards as rather marginal. I was bothered about that question, and I have been sitting here for 20 minutes trying to think of an answer. It is that in those areas where they say there should be a referendum—including matters such as altering the procedures or powers on the appointment of a public prosecutor—the Government do not actually intend there to be a referendum, because they do not intend that such propositions should advance further at all. The Government are trying to put a lock on the issue and to stop it happening. They are drawing a red line on legislation for the immediate future, whereas they are in favour of enlargement, and that is why they have not applied the lock or the referendum provision to enlargement.
Lord Richard
My Lords, I am terribly sorry that I gave the noble Lord 20 minutes’ thought. Nevertheless, may I put a question to him? If the Government have no intention of using these powers—which is what he is saying—why on earth are they in the Bill? What is the point?
Lord Lamont of Lerwick
It is not a question of not using the powers; they are there to serve a purpose. The Government have indicated that they will not move further forward in any of these areas and they are enshrining in legislation obstacles to this ever happening in the future. Given the competence creep and the way in which power has seeped directly and indirectly, openly and less openly, to Brussels, I totally support the Government’s objective, and I have given the best answer that I can think of to the noble Lord.
Lord Taverne
If my noble friend is saying that the present Government are not going to use these powers, the conclusion is surely that the Bill is intended to affect not the present Parliament but a future Parliament. Is that not totally unprecedented?
Lord Lamont of Lerwick
I do not accept that. I agree that it is designed to have an impact on the future and to prevent the creep of powers to Brussels. That is wholly right, because we have seen again and again how power has gone to Brussels, sometimes by indirect means and sometimes by means that some of us regard as questionable. We have seen again and again how referenda results have sometimes been rejected, and questions have been put again and again to the people of other countries until we had the right answer. This Bill is trying to say that we should not have a further transfer of powers, that we have had enough of those transfers, that there are plenty of powers to deal with problems that arise, and that we do not need any more powers as all the tasks of the European Union can be addressed through existing powers. We are therefore drawing a line in the sand, as long as there is a Conservative Government or a Conservative-Liberal Government. Future Governments can, of course, choose to repeal this legislation if they want to. That is their prerogative. We will, no doubt, address the sunset clauses later, but I do not go along with them. It is perfectly legitimate to state, “We are passing this legislation now and we intend it to remain”.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick
I am anxious to sit down, but I will give way to the noble Lord.
Lord Tomlinson
Perhaps the noble Lord can help me. He explained that in a number of areas power had gone to Brussels by what he described as fairly dubious means. I have not had the benefit of 20 minutes’ thought about that, but I cannot, offhand, think of any such example. Can he give me a couple of examples of what is worrying him about the dubious means?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
The noble Lord is speaking from the Gangway and is therefore not in order.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick
I would say that the setting up of the European financial stability mechanism using Article 122 of the TFEU is extremely questionable. I am deeply puzzled how that can be regarded as in accordance with the treaty, but I am sure that that matter will be raised at some point later during our proceedings.
Lord Dykes
My Lords, I suggest that my noble friend Lord Lamont was doing himself down when he referred to 1998 and possibly earlier periods when on the debates that were always going on about Europe he had not given any illustration of being in favour of much to do with the European Union. I remember that in the 1970s, he, like others of us, was an enthusiastic European. I cannot remember the exact years, but I believe that that was the case. He was doing himself down, because I vividly remember—I stand to be corrected, but I believe that my memory is pretty safe on this and I am happy to look at the Hansard reference as soon as I have the chance—that in the early 1990s, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, at one stage he said, “Of course, when you are a member of a club, you have occasionally to do what the other members want as well”. I thought that that was a rather impressive way of saying that he was in favour of some aspects of not only international co-operation in general, but the international co-operation that comes from the mechanisms—the integrated parts of the structure and the sovereign government parts of the structure—of what was then the European Community and is now the European Union, enlarged and with Lisbon as its basic fundament.
That is a phenomenon that we witness in the case of the present Foreign Secretary and others who were viciously anti-European in all sorts of aspects. We remember the role of William Hague when he was leader of the Conservative Party in opposition: his “10 days to save the pound” campaign and his attitudes then. Inevitably, in government, his attitudes have become more modulated as a result of both the basic requirement of working with colleagues, partners, fellow Ministers from other countries in all the European Union mechanisms and the logic and common sense of always garnering general support from the public. The idea that there is huge anxiety in this country about competence creep, mission creep, the European Union taking over too much or the Commission becoming overmighty is to my mind grossly exaggerated. There is very little evidence of that. As we said on Second Reading, it is a campaign that has been got up in the press and by a small number of very anti-European politicians of all kinds, mainly in the Conservative Party and UKIP, but also politicians outside Parliament. We think of the BNP and other rather dubious organisations in that context as well.
If we could gauge the attitude of the public, it is one of general acceptance of all these matters. This debate has been going on for some time both in the Commons and here, and it is interesting to note that there has been no public reaction of support for the Government. I do not think that Ministers could cite messages that they have received from the public saying, “Thank you very much. You’ve done a wonderful job. We are so glad that you are resisting the encroachments of the Commission”. I do not want to upset the Minister by going too much into Second Reading points, because this point was made then by several speakers, but can we get away from that canard?
The Commission remains in number of both officials and senior officials a very modest sized body, despite enlargement. It gets the general support of the European Council and the Council of Ministers, because it does a very good job with all the difficulties built in of blending 27 national cultures of public finance and administration. That is a complicated task and it takes time to get habits to coalesce in joint working. None the less, there is no sense that the Commission is exceeding its powers or has done too much in any way with either the connivance or the resistance of the member Governments. Indeed, apart from its own delegated powers, which are either from the treaty or from the exhortations and requests of the various ministerial Councils, the Commission is a modest part of the total.
The main panoply and structure of the European Union remains the sovereign member Governments in the European Council and the Council of Ministers making their sovereign decisions collectively, enhancing both the individual sovereignty of every member state participating automatically and the general sovereignty of the European Union itself. That is why common sense among the public accepts that as a natural process.
Lord Clinton-Davis
When I was a Commissioner, we made it imperative to listen to the many people who had views about Europe, and I think that that continues today. Is that not an expression of faith in the democratic process by the European Commission?
Lord Dykes
I am grateful to the noble Lord for that intervention because it reminds me of the series of visits by individuals and groups—schools, universities, students, blue-collar workers, white-collar workers, business community groups, trade unions and all sorts of public and private institutions—not only to the European Parliament but to the Commission to see how they work. Taking Eurosceptic and anti-European individuals from the British Parliament on their first visit to Brussels, I have had the personal pleasure of witnessing how they change their mind when they see how it works. It is in no way a threat to our country.
Lord Flight
I thank the noble Lord for giving way. In view of his assessment of public opinion, is he therefore a supporter of having a referendum on staying in or not staying in so as to resolve the issue once and for all?
Lord Dykes
I assume that my noble friend was present during the Second Reading of the Bill.
Lord Dykes
If my noble friend looks at the report of the Second Reading in Hansard, he will see that that point came out a lot. Many speeches on this side of the House, as well as on the opposition and Cross Benches, were very much against the referendum concept, particularly in the Bill but also in general. There is widespread anxiety about it in this country, which I share. The noble Lord, Lord Garel-Jones, recently said publicly that he was against referenda of all kinds. He is not here today—he is abroad this week—but he told me that he is very sceptical about referenda and their misuse. The whole of Parliament has been undermined by this obsession—this referendumitis—and it is therefore essential to try to get away from it or to have referenda only on crucial occasions. That is what I consider to be the very respectable reserve position of the Liberal Democrat Party. I believe that some members of the opposition Benches and some Cross-Benchers share the view that we should have referenda only on crucial existential occasions and not on other things.
I must not tax the Minister’s patience—he is a very patient person—by making too many general points but they do take us back to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart. The best way to undermine Parliament is to say that we are going to badger the British public all the time and ask them about these minor points. Of course, accession is not a minor point but we discussed minor points in previous Committee sittings. Accession is a more major matter and therefore the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, is correct to say that it is illogical not to include it as an item on which a referendum should be held. However, I am glad that on this occasion, in their wisdom, the British Government have decided that it should not be on the list of such items. I only wish that they would kindly consider a lot of the other matters that we have been discussing—particularly the Article 48(6) list of items under Clause 4.
We will find that Clause 6 is even more obnoxious in its menacing effect on Parliament, even though Parliament will still be involved in the decisions. Of course, if there were an accession matter to be decided, under the existing suggestions Parliament would have the right to hold a referendum if it thought that it was correct to do so. However, I hope that that will not be the case, and I think that a lot of people will now have second thoughts about this referendumitis.
We should remember that huge, earth-shattering decisions have been made by this Parliament—one of the greatest Parliaments in the world—on matters ranging from the Second World War, joining NATO, the atom bomb, the formation of the UN and, before that, the League of Nations and the First World War. All those matters were decided by Parliament, as is the British tradition. It is not the British way to say, “Dear hapless members of the public, we want you to make a referendum decision on whether we should have more passerelles and what you would like to be included in those passerelles”. That would be the big society gone mad in European terms and I hope that we will get away from that.
I think that sometimes the noble Lords, Lord Stoddart and Lord Pearson, are unfairly attacked in this House. They are entitled to their views, although I think it is sad that they persist in wanting this country to be on its own and not be a member of the European Union. That is very sad for them personally, as well as being a matter of policy and viewpoint; none the less, in all the amendments that they will be putting forward from now on, they deserve to have a proper and respectful hearing in this House.
Lord Triesman
My Lords, I express my appreciation to all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate so far. I suppose I should apologise for having risen too early to make this intervention. I would have denied myself some 20 minutes of edifying discussion.
I start by making it clear that we oppose the amendment. It is entirely possible, as my noble friend Lord Richard, and the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, have said, to see exactly why it has been moved. The credibility of the amendment rests in large part on the worst provisions in the Bill. In many respects, the Bill is illogical and intrinsically foolish. Many of the 56 or so bases for holding a referendum would be almost incredible in any mature democracy and those provisions litter the Bill. I understand its function in placating some of the harsher critics of Europe. I suppose I take a little comfort from the view of the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, that many of the provisions would never be used even if they were carried, but I think that it is hard to fathom the Government’s intentions on the lock, as with much else in the Bill. The provisions have been made, if I may say so, without any sensible notion of proportionality or practicability and, as I have no doubt further debates in the House will illustrate, they would remove or abandon, in many instances without good or sufficient reason, the full and proper role of Parliament in the kinds of discussions that we would normally expect to have on such provisions. Yet on the issue which might have very significant implications —my noble friend Lord Richard made the point a while ago—the use of a referendum is specifically excluded.
When I thought about what should be said at this stage in the debate, I also went back to the founding treaty, as the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, did, and to the provisions that it made and the rights which it introduced for enlargement. Like him, I thought hard about the consequences on our international relations were we to exercise some form of veto as a systematic way of undermining the founding treaty. The founding treaty is far more eloquent and far more reliable than President Chirac's view of it, which was known to change from time to time.
I want to dwell, as others have, on the value of accession. The economic advantages, the anti-corruption measures, the rule-of-law measures, the role of civil-law measures, the development of courts and proper civil-law coding and the democratic principles have all been absolutely fundamental in all countries seeking to join the European Union. As my noble friend Lord Tomlinson said, by no means all of them fall backward in the economic area—many of them are wealthy and very successful countries—but some of them, without question, have fallen backward and have a chequered history because of the political regimes within which they have been forced to live for so many years.
A fundamental point which was made by my noble friends Lord Radice and Lord Dubs is absolutely right: enlargement has been a huge success. The process undertaken before countries join the European Union has driven consistently for better outcomes and for outcomes which have been more willingly embraced. Old enemies and ancient antagonisms have largely been removed. Going back a couple of years, I can remember thinking hard about the ways in which a war-torn Europe—most of its history it has been war torn—has been moved significantly into a peaceful Europe of nations which co-operate with each other and which have a great deal of mutual interest in each other's economic, political and social success.
As the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, correctly listed the countries that are seeking membership, I thought of the names of many of those countries and remembered that it was not that long ago that we read about those countries largely because of the wars that were taking place, for example in the former Yugoslavia, and the continual history of appalling violence and degradation of human rights. Broadly speaking, we do not talk about those countries in that way any more. We have seen development to a point where they are more concerned with the acquis than with killing each other. That has been a fundamental change in one of the most difficult and troubled regions of Europe, and an enormous success. The process has policed, assessed and evaluated progress.
Lord Dykes
I will be brief. The noble Lord referred to the acquis. Would he not say how ironic, interesting and bizarre it has been that many anti-Europeans in this country welcomed artificial enlargement as a way of loosening and widening rather than further integrating the Union, and yet all the applicant countries accept enthusiastically both the concept of the acquis and that of future integration?
Lord Triesman
My Lords, the observation is completely accurate and adds weight to the point that I make, namely that it is in these areas where people are trying to work through the provision of stable legal systems and better democratic systems that we have seen the replacement in many cases of conflict between those states. That is a huge success.
Of course, we have supported accessions from their initiation through to full EU membership. Major parties on all sides of the House have done so, despite the inconveniences that have sometimes occurred but which were minor in the overall context. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, that not all these gains can be washed away by tales of cynicism, whisky, chocolates or anything else. By and large, in my experience, people have sought the gains because they have wanted a better and more peaceful life, and have wanted their children to enjoy a better future.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, can the noble Lord name a single European country that would have gone to war with another since 1945 in the absence of the project of European integration?
Lord Triesman
My Lords, I was going to go through one or two. Certainly Serbia will serve the purpose. A number of countries in the region, for one reason or another, went to war. It was only when a different kind of future was offered to them that they began to think about the alternative future that their children might enjoy which did not involve shooting each other.
I understand, in debating the amendment, that the issues that I have raised are not supported everywhere or by everyone. I take the point of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart: I regard the movement of labour in a free market as broadly beneficial, but I know that not everybody thinks so. Many people have expressed anxieties about it. This has been one issue that has come out of part of the accession. I believe that, broadly speaking, it has been economically advantageous to Europe rather than the contrary. However, I accept that many people who expressed anxieties were dismissed in a trivial way or saw their anxieties given grudging attention. Probably that did not serve the argument well.
Some people may have felt that changes of that kind were sufficiently profound that they wanted a say in the decision through a referendum. More than that, I suspect that they felt the need for some sort of shout about the overall size of the EU. For all that, were they to contrast the prospect of having a referendum on those questions with the ideas in the Bill about having a referendum on many minute, technocratic and in many instances unintelligible provisions, probably they would think that some of the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, were more important than others. It would be foolish of us not to recognise that.
I suspect that some of the same arguments could happen with the Turkish accession. Let me be clear that we—certainly I do—totally support it. I welcome the dynamism that it represents. I also have no hankering for a Europe that is built around a single religious tradition—a view which has been expressed by many of the Eurosceptics and, indeed, in some European capitals. It would be a huge gain to see Turkey as a full member of Europe. It is absolutely right, as the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, said, that it has always played a fundamental role in the Council of Europe. This would be a huge gain for Europe in a much more profound sense—a Europe that is welcoming and able not only to cope with, which is probably too derisory a way to put it, but to embrace a major secular but also Islamic nation with a capability of bridging the interests of Europe, the Middle East and the Caucasus and bringing a great deal to stabilising the discussion right around the southern and eastern flank of Europe.
Whatever the merits that I might express about it, I know that those merits have been accepted by all recent United Kingdom Governments. However, there remain people—it has been something of a cause in France and Poland, for example—who believe that Turkish accession would have a major impact on the style and culture of the European Union. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, described it as the ethos of the European Union. I look forward to these evolutionary changes regardless of whether others have expressed doubts. However, among those who have expressed doubts, some will probably feel that there will be an impact on them—a greater impact than some of the things that will be subject to referenda under the Bill’s provisions—and that they are not being asked their opinion.
The Minister will probably want to explain to the House the difference in approach and the apparent irrationality of the circumstances in which people will be asked for their view as between the different kinds of categories of issues at stake. The amendment draws the wrong conclusion. However, it cannot be said that the issue that it raises is inconsequential. Nevertheless, as I said at the beginning, we are opposed in principle, and we are. It would be better to remove the requirements for so many of these trigger clauses for referenda without providing any compelling definitions of issues of major constitutional importance and without an independent means of confirming the compelling nature of the decision.
It would be very helpful if the Minister could also comment on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, about what would happen were there to be a number of countries seeking accession at the same time. I will not invite him, however, to develop a new theory of AV which might allow for multiple voting—an outcome which probably everybody would fail to understand.
I can also see one other great risk in the kind of referenda that this amendment calls for, and that is in the area of producing campaigns which could very well be xenophobic and draw out the worst in relations between those seeking entry to the European Union and the domestic community of the United Kingdom, not least because many of those communities already in the United Kingdom are dynamic and vigorous parts of the society of the United Kingdom. The tensions that could be produced by that kind of approach would be quite unacceptable.
I also believe that accession does not transfer powers from the United Kingdom and that the House would do itself a considerable favour by recognising the beneficial characteristics of the growth that we have seen, a benefit which will unquestionably continue. As we look across the whole of the achievement of a peaceful European Union, I suspect that that will be seen historically to be one of the better departing points in our history.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, I begin by welcoming the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, to the forefront of the Opposition's concerns about this Bill. I think that he and I exchanged views from the Dispatch Box during the passage of the Lisbon treaty. We covered a great deal of ground then, and I think that we learnt a great deal from that process. Indeed, the British people learnt a great deal from the Lisbon treaty process, as did the whole of Europe. I look forward to lively debates with him in the future.
I have to say in parenthesis that should this Bill become law, the future will not be at all as the noble Lord describes it. The picture of a dribble of referenda on small issues completely misunderstands the way in which the European process works now or will work in the future, whether this Bill is on our statute book or not. I have obviously explained that insufficiently because the message has not got over, but as we continue our debates I hope to be able to make clear that the pattern will not be dissimilar to the pattern of the big treaty packages in the past, the difference being that if they contain matters that might look small but could be highly significant for this nation because they involve a transfer of competence or powers beyond the level of insignificance, that certainly requires consulting the British people. That is a very widespread view which this Government believe is important to satisfy in order to build a better consensus for the European Union than we have today from the British public.
However, that is for other debates: debates that we have already had and debates in the future. On this issue, we have had a very elegant exchange on the two sides of the argument. It is a debate in which the Government’s position is quite clear, as I shall make plain in a few moments. I find that when your Lordships tackle this sort of issue we put up a superb performance and all sorts of aspects are developed that do not necessarily emerge in the pattern of debates in the other place.
The amendments would alter Clause 4 to create an automatic requirement for a referendum in the UK to approve the accession of a new member state to the European Union. As your Lordships know, the UK has never required a referendum on accession treaties in the past, and this Government have been clear that there should be no referendum requirement merely for the accession of any new member state. That was the position also taken by the previous Government, of which the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, was a member. Why is that so? The simple point is this: the accession of a new member state alone does not constitute a transfer of competence or power from the UK to the EU. The transfer of powers or competence to the EU would be from the member state joining the European Union, not from the UK. Of course, there are some effects, possibly including a change in bilateral relations if a country becomes a member of the European Union. No one disputes that, but we are not really talking about effects or impact; we are talking about the transfer of powers and competences.
I apologise if that sounds narrow, but that is the limitation of the provisions of the Bill. Of course, we are aware of the need to avoid providing a loophole in our referendum provisions in case there is a proposal to use an accession treaty to transfer power or competence from member states other than the acceding state. That could occur, so this Bill provides for a clear requirement for a Ministerial Statement to be laid before Parliament about whether an accession treaty constituted a transfer of competence or power from the UK to the EU in accordance with Clause 4. If the Minister decided that such a transfer was proposed, a referendum would then be required, but if there was no such transfer no referendum would be required. I hope that reinforces the point that I was making earlier.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, as the Minister has touched on this point so clearly, will he make it quite categorical that if a Croatian treaty of accession in the next year or two is brought before Parliament and it contains the provisions on Ireland and the Czech Republic that were agreed as part of the ratification process of Lisbon, in which it was stated, by us as well, that they will be included in a future accession treaty, that will not give rise to a referendum requirement?
Lord Howell of Guildford
If one is talking about declarations or derogations within existing treaties and competences, that would not give rise to a referendum. If it was an occasion on which a whole range of new proposals were put forward, including some of those which noble Lords describe as minor or even trivial but which could in fact have highly significant effects on the powers, potentials, freedoms and obligations of this country, that would be a different matter. The kind of changes suggested by the noble Lord would not give rise to a referendum.
In line with all other treaty changes, an Act of Parliament would—
Lord Davies of Stamford
I am very grateful to the noble Lord for allowing me to interrupt him. This is a very important point. If the Bill is passed in its present form with its text unamended, is he confident that it could not subsequently be argued—if there are going to be judicial reviews of ministerial decisions on this matter—during the accession of a new member state that the mere fact of accession reduces the powers of this country because it dilutes our voting strength in the European Union under QMV and for other purposes?
Lord Howell of Guildford
It does not dilute our power to veto. Our power to veto is there unless it is removed by other transfers, which of course would trigger a referendum. However, if the power to veto is there, there is no dilution. We have heard from noble Lords who have spoken in this debate of the small but undoubted change in the proportion of the population of the total European Union that would result in this country if a number of other countries acceded. That is true, but the veto remains. There has been no transfer of power of any description or kind, which is what this Bill is concerned with.
I also wanted to say that any accession treaty provides Parliament with the full power and the opportunity to scrutinise the accession treaty, which we have done in the past. If it was so minded—a point that meets the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart—a Parliament could legislate for a referendum. It remains the power of Parliament to do so. It is perfectly free to say, “Here is an issue on which we think there should be a referendum”.
Lord Taverne
Is the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, not correct? If an accession reduces the voting power under majority voting procedure of the UK, that must mean a decline in power of the UK Parliament.
Lord Howell of Guildford
It does not alter the fact that the United Kingdom will continue to have a veto, as other countries will, unless we surrender positions of unanimity by abandoning our veto. That would be the position. It is perfectly true that there would be very marginal and small changes in the pattern of weighting, but there is no particular reason why they should involve a loss of power or a transfer of competence. They do not do so. The noble Lord, who is very experienced in these things, was talking about patterns in which all sorts of alliances are formed or not formed. All sorts of gatherings and countings of votes take place when Ministers go into these negotiations. That will continue as before. The accession of another country does not alter that pattern in any way.
The noble Lord, Lord Pearson, asked about the ways in which immigration or financial regulations might be affected by the arrival in the European Union of a new member state. He will recall that when Bulgaria and Romania joined the EU, we put transitional arrangements in place. We had the perfect power and legislative opportunity to do so, and we can do so again. Nothing in the treaty of accession prevents us from doing so and nothing has prevented us from doing so in the past.
I emphasise, as the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, and other noble Lords have asked me to, that, as with all previous Governments regardless of their political composition, we are strong supporters of future enlargement. Like some noble Lords, I remember the considerable uplift in spirits when first there was the fall of the Berlin wall and the Soviet empire and then when the processes of enlargement embraced one after another of its former satellite countries. We all worked, planned and hoped for these things. Some of us thought that we would never see them in our lifetime, but they did occur.
EU enlargement helps to create stability, security and prosperity across Europe—we have never disputed that—and serves to spread democracy, human rights, the rule of law and fair rules for workers and businesses. These standards are high although they are not always achieved. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, for reminding us of a joke—which, frankly, I had heard before—about the standards of the EU itself. The EU is not, of course, a country; it is a vast confederal structure. It is a unique institution in the 20th and 21st centuries but it is not a country, and perhaps it is a little distorting to suggest that it should be judged in the same way as a nation state. However, that we favour enlargement in the way in which it has come about so far—and in the way in which it might come about in the future—should not raise one iota of doubt for a single minute.
Whenever a candidate country meets the EU accession criteria and it is decided that it is ready to join the EU, we will support its entry. The Government will present its case to Parliament through the introduction of a Bill that will be debated in both Houses and passed or not passed into an Act according to the will of Parliament.
I have little to add to the strong points that have been put by a number of noble Lords as to the fact that transfers of powers and competencies do not arise in the precise form in which we are dealing with them in the Bill; there is no competence or power transfer. The commitment in the coalition government programme for government is to have a referendum on treaties that change a power or competence from the UK to the EU. Treaties that merely allow a new country to accede do not meet this requirement. On that basis, I urge noble Lords to consider what I have said on this matter and to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon
I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate, particularly those who supported the amendment—the noble Lords, Lord Pearson and Lord Willoughby de Broke. I confess that I did not think there would be a debate of nearly an hour and a half on my amendments; I thought they would be dealt with very swiftly. I am pleased that I tabled the amendments because we have had a well considered and authoritative debate on the subject, whatever opinion we hold. That has been altogether good. I would like to reply to all the points that have been made but, including my own speech, there have been 15 speakers—the equivalent of the number of speakers in normal short debates that are two and a half hours long—and I am sure that the House would not welcome a long speech from me in these concluding remarks.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, that I was interested in the way in which the Estonians were bribed, so to speak, to vote in the referendum with whisky and chocolates. I am sure that the Scots would be pleased that their product was being used in that way. I visited Estonia shortly after the referendum. It seemed, from the general view of the population, that they regretted the decision that they had made and wished that they could go back on it. That is by the by.
It has been a good debate with some important issues raised. Although the noble Lord, Lord Richard, does not support the amendment, he made a valid point that if we are going to have referendums on some rather less important things—public prosecutors and what have you—there is little merit in raising the question of having referendums on more major matters. That was taken up by several other noble Lords. It is clearly important that we realise that the Bill is deficient in many respects.
On the question of referendums, there appears to be a lot of opposition to referendums per se. That opposition is perhaps on the basis that those who do not want them believe that they cannot win them. That is a big mistake. We have referendums on all sorts of things such as mayors. The objective of having them is to give people a say on major items. I stress that it is on major items. We should not rule them out of our decision-making process.
Another point was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Triesman. I, too, welcome him to his new post on the opposition Front Bench. He may well be right to claim that the European Union has given us nothing but benefits. The noble Lord, Lord Pearson, and I have asked repeatedly for a cost-benefit analysis of our membership of the European Union. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, might support the next Bill which asks for a referendum.
Another point was made by the noble Lord, Lord Howell, who suggested that we should not have referendums on the accession of new members because there are no new competencies. As I pointed out in my opening speech, the accession of new members has often if not mostly been the reason for new treaties transferring competencies to the European Union. In that respect, new accessions may well result in new competencies being given to the European Union and its institutions.
I again thank noble Lords for contributing to a good and essential debate. I do not intend to press the matter to a Division this afternoon but, after reading all the contributions to the debate, I might wish to bring the matter forward again on Report and perhaps even put it to a vote. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Liddle
Lord Liddle
My Lords, I readily confess that in the annals of arcaneness this is a very arcane subject for an amendment but it is not the fault of noble Lords on this side of the Committee. The fact is that this is an extremely arcane Bill with provisions of mind-boggling complexity. Therefore, if we are to address it with proper scrutiny we will inevitably end up moving arcane amendments.
In simple terms the purpose of Ministers is, we have been told in this legislation, to detail every possible transfer of power to Brussels and bind it in the form of some indestructible referendum lock, which will last at least for this Parliament and probably a long way beyond. Their argument is that this is necessary to restore public trust in the European Union. This proposition is made without any real evidence being offered that this is an effective means of restoring trust in Europe. I could argue with equal force that a more effective European Union would be a better way to address this problem. In making the argument that we need these multiple referenda, the Government are launching the greatest attack on the sovereignty of Parliament that we have seen in recent times. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, argues that those of us on this side of the Committee who find the multiple referenda proposed in the Bill objectionable do so because we are frightened of losing. We are not frightened of losing but we stand for parliamentary sovereignty and representative democracy, and this Bill is a denial of those principles.
The second point is that the situation in which this Government intend to put their Ministers is profoundly against the national interest in dealings in the European Union, because it denies Ministers the pragmatic flexibility to agree to passerelles in the Lisbon treaty or to small changes which will enable Europe to be more effective and to win back that trust. The consequence will be not to stop things happening but that the rest of the European Union, if it thinks the issue sufficiently important, will go ahead without Britain being involved. For good reason or ill, the United Kingdom is already out of the euro and out of Schengen. We on this side of the Committee believe that the consequence of the Bill will be to put us out of virtually all areas of expanding EU activity. It will marginalise Britain in Europe and deny the British Government the power to tackle problems that the nation state on its own cannot tackle. This is not just a matter of applying a lock to change; it is also throwing away the key.
On previous days in Committee, we have argued that this extreme position that the Government have adopted on the referendum lock can at least be modified in a number of ways. In our previous day in Committee, we argued from this side that where changes need to be made on grounds of urgency they should be permitted. We also argued that the significance test, which is included in the Bill and which allows Ministers to decide that—
Lord Howell of Guildford
I certainly do not want to make a habit of too many interruptions, as we all know that debate in this place goes more smoothly without, but the noble Lord has made a number of statements which jar so strongly with the reality that I have to ask him what he means by them. He says that the passerelle and other arrangements in the Lisbon treaty would enable rapid changes to be made but we all know that any treaty, including the one now going through, takes 21 months. How can 21 months possibly be described as rapid? Furthermore, he seems to assume that the efficient and effective operation of the European Union demands all kinds of new treaties and to ignore the fact that within the vast range of competences that it has, a great deal can, must and will be done. Countries throughout the European Union are extremely reluctant to embark upon the complex, long process of European treaty change. These are all facts and they contrast completely with what the noble Lord has said in the past five minutes.
Lord Liddle
The Minister has misunderstood what I have been trying to say. I apologise to the Committee if I have been giving a false impression but this amendment’s subject encapsulates fully the point that I am trying to make. What concerns us is: why tie up all the flexibilities that are within the existing, ratified structure of the Lisbon treaty, which were discussed in this House in the previous Parliament? Why tie all of those up in referendum locks that could have a very negative effect on Britain's power to act in its own interests within the European Union? That is the point and this amendment looks at one of those specific and unnecessary locks. Let me try and explain its point.
Clause 4(1)(m), which we debated last week, requires an automatic referendum if any amendment is moved to the Lisbon treaty, as it could be within the terms of that treaty, to alter the right of member states to ensure suspension of the legislative procedure. In Euro-speak, this is called the emergency brake and covers three areas of EU activity: social security, judicial co-operation and cross-border crime. It is the right of a member state to refer a matter where legislation is proposed in those areas to the European Council before the legislation can proceed any further. Britain supported emergency brakes in these areas in the passage of the Lisbon treaty. It did so because the previous Government thought that as regards social security, judicial co-operation and cross-border crime there might well be an argument in principle for more Europe. Indeed, there were compelling arguments for more Europe in this area but as a safeguard, just in case we did not like the look of the way things were going, we wanted to see how it worked. Therefore there was a need for an emergency brake.
The logic of this very pragmatic position is that if we find in future years that the European Community is doing a good job in these fields, we will be prepared to rid ourselves of that emergency brake provision. Those who are disposed by nature to see everything that the EU does as a threat will never believe that anything can work, but those of us who think that it can be an opportunity should be open-minded about the possibility of the changes that are provided for in the Lisbon treaty.
I argue that these three areas are issues that are not of the highest national importance, like whether we join the euro, but are of significant importance where change might be necessary in processes that the Government might want to agree to. However, the Bill will require an automatic referendum. Look at them: first, social security legislation, which, as we know, is tied up with the right to work, study, and settle for retirement wherever you want in the EU, which is one of its most appealing citizenship rights; secondly, judicial co-operation, which is essential if we are going to effectively tackle the terrorist threats of the kind that the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, talked about earlier in his Statement on Osama bin Laden; and thirdly, cross-border crime, in terms of which we are all aware of the increasing problems of criminal gangs operated from outside the EU but often on its borders, in countries like Russia and some parts of the Balkans.
Surely we want to retain the flexibility to make Europe effective in those areas. That may require changes in these so-called emergency-brake provisions but, on a narrow but significant point, the Government are saying, “Oh no, we can’t do anything for at least seven years or so because we have to have a referendum and we are certainly not going to do anything about that this Parliament”. The argument from this side of the House is a different one: let us not tie ourselves up in these knots but have the confidence that in a representative democracy Parliament should deal with these questions; there is no place for a referendum on them.
Lord Blackwell
My Lords, I must apologise to the House and the Minister for having been unable to contribute to the debate on the Bill so far. I feel compelled to contribute at this point by the extraordinary speech of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle.
When the Government of the day brought the Lisbon treaty to this House, one of their proud claims was that they had protected the red lines that they had set out, including the red lines on areas such as social security and judicial co-operation, through the introduction of these emergency brakes. If legislation was brought forward in the European Union that was seen to be against our national interest in these areas, or against things that we could tolerate, we had the right to say, “We will not go along with this. We don’t think this should be applied to the UK”. Effectively, we have a veto. The other member states can proceed without us if they wish, but it gives us a cast-iron guarantee that in these very sensitive areas the EU cannot override the UK Parliament and the UK people in legislating in what are regarded as areas of national importance. For the noble Lord to say that we should now throw these emergency brakes away—
Lord Liddle
I am not saying that at all. I am saying that we should not tie ourselves up indefinitely in the need to have a referendum to make this change. That does not mean that I am in favour of immediate change in these things; I am not. But I want to hold open the possibility of flexibility in order that we can meet new circumstances if necessary.
Lord Blackwell
I am grateful to the noble Lord for his clarification. However, he talks about trust, and I have to say to him that the reason why the British people have lost trust in politicians to represent them in Europe is that over many years they have seen politicians stand up and say, “Minor changes. These won’t affect you”, but cumulatively those changes have added up to a huge shift in powers.
These brakes were put in the treaty, which was agreed by Parliament. The noble Lord may not want to remove them this year, but when does he want to do it? If he wants to do it at some time, that would be a substantial weakening of the current treaties. In the spirit of the Bill, which I wholly support, I regard anything that removes a veto or anything akin to one as a major change to the treaty that should not be carried through by Government without the provisions of the Bill requiring that as a major change it should be put to the people in a referendum.
In his speech, the noble Lord attempted to confuse the House by suggesting that the referendum would make it difficult for the UK to use these powers. I should make it clear—the Minister can correct me if I am wrong—that nothing in the Bill requires a referendum for the UK to use, or not to use, the emergency brake. The Bill is entirely silent about the use of Articles 48, 82 and 83. It simply says that if the EU seeks to amend the terms of the treaties under which we can use those emergency brakes, that will require a referendum. Whether or not the use of the emergency brakes itself required a referendum would depend on the substance of the matter that was contemplated being brought forward under those provisions, which would fall under other aspects of the Bill.
Removing the subsection, as the noble Lord is attempting to do, would mean that at some point in time a future Government could give away these vetoes without requiring that to be brought back to the people. That is exactly the kind of action that has led to the loss of trust of people in politicians and, unfortunately, in this Parliament, to protect them in this matter.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
I am sorry that the noble Lord’s absence from earlier debates has not enabled him to catch up with where this debate has got to. Some of us were attempting to reduce sharply the number of provisions that require a referendum, for a number of reasons that are not the ones that the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, gave but are related, as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, said, to whether or not you believe in representative parliamentary democracy and the powers of Parliament. A number of us who have done so have put forward amendments that would effectively leave in the Bill the strengthening from the ratification of Lisbon powers, which means simply that if these changes were to be made there would need to be a resolution in both Houses, but would leave intact in the Bill a requirement for primary legislation before Britain could agree to that. That would be a strengthening of parliamentary authority in areas such as this, which in any case require unanimity. The idea that there is not a lock there is completely aberrant. What there is not, if you follow the amendments, is a lock plus a referendum, and that is for principled reasons that I have briefly attempted to explain. I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but really and truly the situation is not quite as he suggests. Those of us who are trying to reduce the number of referendums are not trying to weaken the power of Parliament but to strengthen it.
Lord Blackwell
I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. Actually, I am fully aware of the nature of these amendments, all of which attempt to undermine the purpose of the Bill, which is to require a referendum if there is a major change to the treaties or a major shift in power. That is a principle that I fully support and which the noble Lord is attempting to undermine.
I hope that there will never be a referendum under the Bill because I hope that no Government will ever seek to transfer further power to the European Union in a way that would require the referendum requirement to be enacted. In hoping that we will never have such a referendum, I probably agree with the noble Lord. However, if we are going to restore the trust of the people of this country in the EU, we have to give them the cast-iron guarantees that the Bill provides and not undermine it in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, seeks to do.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
I seek some clarification on the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle. It seems to wish to get rid of three emergency brakes but leave in place the one that includes the common foreign and security policy. That seems somewhat inconsistent; the noble Lord has mentioned several areas of co-operation where he believes it would be important, if the EU were to proceed in a manner that would be conducive to our interests, for us to do so. I suggest that the common foreign and security policy would be one area in which we have rather more expansive interests than in those of social security, judicial co-operation and cross-border crime.
Since the noble Lord gave a few examples, may I caution him on, for example, judicial co-operation? He thought that it may well be essential to have improved judicial co-operation if we are to tackle terrorist threats. That is an important point, but I also urge caution regarding the other direction. It is not that long ago that in this House the former independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, my noble friend Lord Carlile, warned us regarding the proposals for 60 days’ detention without charge that the previous Government wished to introduce. We must not go in the direction of the French legal system, for example, under which people have been interned for several years without charge. It cuts both ways: we may want enhanced co-operation but we may well not want it.
The previous Government negotiated the treaty and put in the emergency brakes. It is unclear what these moves would achieve and why that change of position has come about. Will the noble Lord reassure me on my understanding, which is that the Bill does not require a referendum before the EU can act in areas where the emergency brake exists? Co-operation is a good thing which can benefit the UK, but I thought that this was about making it clear to the British people that a referendum would be required if there is a move to abandon these important safeguards. Can the noble Lord explain what has caused this quite significant change in thinking?
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
There has been much support in our debates so far against referendums for all but the most important issues such as the euro, and the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, echoed that in his speech. The speech of the noble Lord, Lord Deben, comes to mind, and many others. As this is a theme running through so much of our debate, I felt that I should make just one comment.
To put it mildly, we, the political class, are not particularly popular. I fear I detect a feeling out there among the people, in many discussions and in many fora, that our system of representative parliamentary democracy has, to some extent, broken down, or at least that it is not the great instrument it was before, the one which was exported all over the world. I think that there is now greater support for more of a plebiscitary democracy. Our system of representative parliamentary democracy worked very well in the 17th, 18th, 19th and even early 20th centuries, when many, if not most, people could not read and often led lives of endless drudgery and when better educated people were elected to Parliament to take their decisions for them. But now the people can read and, on the whole, are just as good and capable as their politicians. I believe that something like the Swiss democratic system, with its referendums—not, perhaps, going quite as far as the Californian system, with its difficulties over tax and the rest of it—really is now the only way in which to restore their democracy to the people. To those of the political class who laugh at this and decry such a prospect, I merely say, “They would, wouldn’t they?”.
Lord Flight
My Lords, it seems to me that the three areas where the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, is suggesting the lock-in of the referendum should be removed are fundamental to the argument about needing to have the requirement for referenda to lock in the position as it now is. They are about our common law system, our criminal justice system and our social security provisions. These are crucial areas and, as others have pointed out, because of their importance we negotiated, and were satisfied to get, the emergency brakes at Lisbon.
Some may not agree or be comfortable with the use of required referenda to act as a lock-in to the position that we are in; that is their view. But the whole point of the Bill is to protect citizens against UK Governments, as they have done over the past 20 years, gradually ceding more and more powers without any form of consent from the electorate or from changes in Europe to which the Government are not necessarily a party having the same effect. It would be completely illogical for the Government, having decided to embark upon this Bill, suddenly to say, “We are quite happy after all not to have the lock-in on the crucial area where we have emergency brakes”. The amendment is rather, dare I say, a waste of time, because it goes to the heart of what the Bill is about.
Lord Williamson of Horton
I pose a question to the Minister and not just to join side 1 or side 2, which is a feature of Committee. We are dealing with Clause 4, which is headed, “Cases where treaty or Article 48(6) decision attracts a referendum”. The purpose of the amendment is to remove some elements from that requirement. We will soon discuss a whole series of amendments—Amendments 23B to 23M—which relate to different subjects but have the same single purpose. They identify areas where, if a proposed decision is considered beneficial to the UK, it could be decided by Parliament without a national referendum. That is what we are talking about on this amendment and will be talking about on many more amendments, which will probably take us right up to dinner time.
Of course, some of these questions could probably be decided in any case under existing powers without any treaty change—that is quite possible in many cases—or any decision under Article 48(6). However, areas such as cross-border crime, which is the subject of a couple of amendments, might require such a decision. For this reason, I pose this question. I emphasise that it is a question, not a statement of opinion. If the Government, or more importantly Parliament, consider a small change that would require the operation of, for example, Clause 4(1) or Clause 6(5), and they thought that it was advantageous to the United Kingdom to do so, can the Minister envisage any circumstance in which it could be adopted without a referendum? I exclude from the question codification, which we will come to; measures applying to other member states but not to the UK; and accession treaties covered by Clause 4(4). That last point might be disputed, as it was earlier in the Committee. However, I pose my question. It is important for the further consideration of the Bill that we should know whether future decisions that are favourable to the UK but that would require these changes can ever be decided without a referendum.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, we have had a series of rather general debates, some of which relate to the amendment under consideration. However, I fear that several speeches have not referred at all to the amendment that we are discussing.
I first answer the broad and appropriate question that the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, posed. The Government’s case is that, under the terms of the Lisbon treaty, we now have considerable flexibility to do a great deal more within the current competencies of the European Union, some of which will be of definite advantage to this country, without needing further treaty change. The amendment seems to be based on an assumption that there is very little flexibility in the treaties, and that Britain is being pushed to the margins, stands alone, and will somehow be trapped by this. The coalition Government are making the case that we wish to make the best of our position in the European Union, but there is now a good deal of headroom and we are not cramped by current conditions. We are, as we will come to later, taking part in at least one exercise in what might become enhanced co-operation on the EU patent. The EU and Britain can work together within existing competencies for some considerable time to come.
On the previous day in Committee, I quoted David Miliband as saying clearly that, with the acceptance of the Lisbon treaty, we should now be entering a stage of consolidation in which we do not need further treaty change for some five to 10 years. If that turns out not to be the case, we will all have to deal with the situation as it then comes.
Lord Lea of Crondall
This is the most important point in the Bill. Are the Government now saying that if the Lisbon treaty says X, Y and Z, none of these clauses can in any way undermine it?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I was not aware that any of these clauses in any way undermined the Lisbon treaty. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, who was much involved in the EU convention, is not here. Those of us who have read, as I have, a certain amount on the EU convention and the Lisbon treaty, which followed it, are well aware that the clauses on the emergency brake and passerelle were agreed after hard negotiations, in which it was not the United Kingdom versus all the others. Several member Governments in this now rather large and complex European Union wanted some reassurance that, as they touched on such sensitive areas as national sovereignty, law, finance and welfare provision—some of the issues covered by these emergency brake provisions—they would have, at the back, the ability to say, “No, we are not happy with what is proceeding”. That is what the emergency brake is about. It is not the case that Britain stands alone against 26 other member states that are determined to integrate further and sweep more powers into Brussels.
The United Kingdom and several others are pushing for further co-operation in a range of areas. Coalitions across the European Union differ according to each subject on which we negotiate. The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, knows better than me what it looks like once you are inside government. The emergency brakes are there to reassure member states—their public and their Governments—and those who care not just about the peculiarities of English criminal law and justice but about those of Polish and Romanian criminal law and justice. I have read what the then Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, said about this when he gave evidence to the House of Commons European Scrutiny Committee on the Lisbon treaty. He said that the Government hoped that the emergency brake would never have to be used, but that it was there as a reassurance to national Governments. I emphasise “Governments”; this was not just about the British.
Jack Straw went on to say to the House of Lords European Union Committee:
“So it is an additional protection and I think really rather an important one”.
Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, drafted this. Jack Straw then said:
“Again, it is quite a paradoxical point but I think the effect of it may be to provide greater confidence to British Government to get involved in opting into instruments, which is actually in principle what we want to do, and having done that then some additional surety which will get a satisfactory answer so that we do not have to apply the emergency brake”.
The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, said that sometimes the arguments around all this are arcane and of mind-boggling complexity. That sentence was not the easiest to read. However, the whole purpose of the emergency brakes is precisely to reassure national Governments on sensitive issues. It is not intended that they should be regularly used. It is highly unlikely that any Government will wish to remove them in the foreseeable future. Therefore, I suggest humbly that this amendment is one of the least useful that we have to consider.
Lord Liddle
I think the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, is trying to distort the position that I have put forward. I am not in favour of removing the emergency brakes. I am saying that the flexibility is there in the Lisbon treaty to do this. Those of us who have doubts about the Government’s Bill are saying that since this flexibility could be exercised only by Act of Parliament, why does it have to be done through a referendum? That is fundamentally the point. We heard the argument about what the former Foreign Secretary, David Miliband, said about the Lisbon treaty late at night in the previous session of the Committee. The point is that David Miliband recommended the Lisbon treaty to the other place on the basis of the flexibilities that it contains. However, the problem with the Bill is that it tries to tie up all those flexibilities with its wretched referendum lock.
The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, is trying to cover up the fact that his party is allowing the Conservative Party a second bite at the cherry on the referendum on the Lisbon treaty that it failed to secure. That is what much of the Bill is about. It is to my great regret that the British party that has been the strongest supporter of Britain’s membership of the European Union has gone along with what the Conservatives are asking for in this case. They are after a re-run of Lisbon. The amendments that we on this side of the Committee have put forward say, “Let us take the Lisbon treaty as it is and accept that the flexibilities within it do not require referenda”.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
It is my great regret that for 13 years under the previous Labour Government the balance of public opinion in this country became steadily more sceptical about the European Union and that the Government of Tony Blair and then of Gordon Brown failed to make a positive case for European Union engagement. That has left us with a very sceptical public and a deeply sceptical and antagonistic press. That is the problem with which this Bill deals. It is another problem that we have inherited from a succession of previous Governments. The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, might well have tried to do something about that at the time from inside government, but unfortunately he did not succeed.
Lord Liddle
We can have academic debates about these questions in other places, and I do not want to delay the Committee. However, on the facts, there has been no great swing of British public opinion against the European Union over the past 15 years or so. It has fluctuated with circumstances over time. The Eurosceptic press was not created by the previous Government; unfortunately, it has been with us for a lot longer than that.
We on this side fundamentally object to the idea that plebiscitary democracy is the way to restore public trust. I am surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, is going along with this. I do not know what the noble Lord’s views are on the current referendum campaign, but there does not seem to be a high quality of public debate on referenda, given the way in which some of the people involved in the referendum campaign have argued that we are missing out by not having these issues decided in Parliament, where there would at least be a more balanced consideration of them.
I will, of course, withdraw this amendment. However, we on this side have moved several amendments on these lines, and we see no give whatever on the Government’s part. On subsequent Committee days I will refer to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, to which the Government must face up: namely, if they think that something has to be done in the national interest, would it still require a referendum, and what would be their position on that? That question is highly relevant.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick
What sort of policy proposals would the noble Lord want the emergency brake lifted for? Given that the emergency brake is there purely as a defensive mechanism, to be used rarely on occasions of national interest as a negative power, what circumstances can he envisage in which he would want to get rid of it? In all the areas that he has mentioned on which there might be co-operation, we can agree to co-operate anyway.
Lord Liddle
The noble Lord is right, of course, but it seems to me that on judicial co-operation, for instance, we had established the confidence that the former Foreign Secretary Jack Straw talked about and that Europe was important and effective in these areas. We might wish at some stage—I am not saying that we would but we might—to see some change in the processes. After all, it might be not only us who want to apply the emergency brake. Other member states might wish to do so, and that might be detrimental to the possibility of getting agreement on these questions. If we look back to Maastricht, we see that justice and home affairs were included in the European treaties for the first time on the basis of unanimity. However, by the time we got round to Lisbon there was an overwhelming consensus among member states that these matters should not be in a separate pillar but should be part of the main business of the Community, and that in the vast majority of cases there should be majority voting. Opinions change in the light of circumstances. Therefore, why should we tie ourselves up in referenda?
Baroness Williams of Crosby
I hope that I may suggest a response to the noble Lord. One example that we on this Bench have discussed is the growing incidence of piracy, which might stop a great deal of traffic passing through the Red Sea and affect the interests of our country and of others. Secondly, in the immediate aftermath of the freezing of assets of a number of non-democratic leaders following the Arab spring, money laundering might be regarded as an urgent issue.
Lord Liddle
The noble Baroness comes to my aid and makes good points, for which I thank her. I shall withdraw the amendment, but the Government should think hard about flexibility in the Bill. At the moment it is profoundly damaging to the British national interest because it gives our Ministers no flexibility whatever in their dealings with the European Union.
Lord Waddington
Lord Waddington
My Lords, I will not detain the Committee for very long. At first sight one might think that this amendment was a bit of a fuss about nothing. Why should anyone fuss about the codification of the practice of an existing competence? However, when one comes to examine the matter, the implications are serious. They were spotted by the House of Commons European Scrutiny Committee, which reported in these terms. It said, referring to the exception in Clause 4(4):
“In our opinion, this exception is significant: it would cover the practice of EU institutions pushing at the boundaries of their competence (competence creep), sometimes supported by judgments of the ECJ, and subsequently codified in a revision of the Treaties”.
I give your Lordships a simple example of what I am talking about. We are talking about, for instance, converting a non-binding intergovernmental agreement, which can be revised or revoked by another simple intergovernmental communiqué, into a treaty law which can never be changed except with the unanimous agreement of all member states. We are talking about what is in effect a transfer of power or competence because we are enshrining in the treaties an obligation that was not in them before. All this is not fanciful: conversion of simple agreements into what is to all intents and purposes permanent and irreversible Community law, backed up by sanctions against backsliders, has happened and does happen. In particular, parts of the Lisbon treaty were justified as mere codification of practice.
For instance, our own European Union Select Committee, in the 10th Report of the 2007-08 Session, on its assessment of the impact of the Lisbon treaty, found that new Article 43(1) of the Treaty of European Union, inserted by Lisbon, which set out the task for which the EU could deploy military and civilian missions under the common security and defence policy, codified in the TEU the tasks that had been agreed by member state Governments in 2003, as part of the European security strategy. However, the wording of the report, which I have here, hardly demonstrates that the committee had a clear understanding of what was happening. Rather surprisingly, at paragraph 12.127, the report stated:
“The Treaty will not change the scope of the CFSP or transfer any additional powers to the EU in this area. The new provisions in the Treaty could lead to a more active role for the EU in the area of CFSP, but much will depend on the degree of consensus among Member States regarding such a role”.
In fact, a non-binding intergovernmental agreement that could have been revised at any time by a simple intergovernmental communiqué was becoming virtually irreversible treaty law. It was not a mere codification, but a clear example of well concealed competence creep.
We are not debating whether the common security and defence policy is good or bad; I am pointing out that Clause 4(4)(a) would allow the conversion of a non-binding practice into binding and irreversible community law. The Bill is saying that when that happens, there is no need for a referendum.
Finally, the amendment and the situations that I have described should make us wonder whether the provision in the Bill for referendums, far from being an attack on parliamentary democracy, may mean that Governments have to take more care to ensure that they are open with their own Parliaments as to the implications of proposals, because of their statutory obligation to hold referendums, if there is a transfer of power or competence. I shall certainly not press the amendment to a vote, but I hope that Select Committees will in future be alert to the possibility of new law being made under the guise of codification, and report accordingly.
Lord Dykes
I apologise for interrupting. Can the noble Lord give any other examples, apart from the CFSP?
Lord Waddington
That is the example that comes to mind. There are three or four of them in the Lisbon treaty, but I do not have that information and, unfortunately, I cannot give it to my noble friend, but I will write to him, if he wants it. There were two or three other occasions; I am not saying that they were earth shattering, but it is alarming that the Select Committee did not spot that new law was being made here. That is the point I am making. It is alarming that new law could be made without holding a referendum, and it is doubly alarming that one of our expert Select Committees in this House did not spot what was happening on that occasion. It should not happen in future.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
As a member of the EU Sub-Committee that was the author of that example, I should enlighten the noble Lord on the process. First, what he has said in the past few minutes is based on an interpretation that is a complete fantasy, whereby if this Government and country are party to an intergovernmental agreement, they can walk out of it when they like. They cannot do that. It is a matter of good faith and the law on treaties, and you cannot do that.
The noble Lord is quite right to say—and the text he read out demonstrates this—that we were perfectly well aware that the CFSP and the ESDP were being shifted from an intergovernmental basis on to a treaty basis. That is what we said in our report, but the key point was that the provisions for taking decisions within the Lisbon treaty in this area require unanimity, and there would be no surrender of powers or competences whatever. I am sorry—I will speak to the amendment in a moment, but I wished to correct that point.
Lord Waddington
With the greatest respect to my noble friend, he is in error. There was an intergovernmental agreement. You can say that that gave a competence to the EU, but it could have been withdrawn in a moment by just a communiqué between the member states. The noble Lord is surely not saying that it was a matter of insignificance to transfer an intergovernmental agreement into cast-iron treaty law. He is surely not saying that the report from which I read out made clear to its readers that, in fact, new law was being made on that occasion. The report does not say anything like that. It was certainly not a clear statement that an intergovernmental agreement was being transferred and converted into community treaty law.
Lord Radice
I thank the noble Lord for giving way, but what the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, made clear was that this position, even if it is in community law, is protected by veto. I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, understood that.
Lord Waddington
That is nothing to do with the case that I have raised. I am saying that the Bill deals with all sorts of situations where it is said that there is a transfer of competence, and that there should therefore be a referendum. I am pointing out that, in this clause, what is dressed up as a mere codification can often be a transfer of competence and the conversion of an agreement between members states that could be altered at the drop of a hat into binding treaty law. That is what I am talking about. I beg to move.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick
My noble friend Lord Waddington is to be congratulated on and thanked for raising an extremely important point on which I should like the Minister’s reassurance. I should like him to address the points made by my noble friend.
Of course I understand that the Bill deals only with future treaty change, not the existing provisions of the treaty. If a power of competence has already been conceded to the EU from the UK, the decision obviously cannot be reversed by the Bill. Under it, codification does not require a referendum in any case, including a codified transfer of power or competence. Why? I know that the Government’s argument is that if codification takes place by the granting of a formal treaty base for an action, the transfer of power has already taken place, either under the treaties or through a different general article, such as Article 352.
However, the point that the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, raised is important. I know that some members of the Committee dislike the phrase “competence creep”, but a transfer of powers could happen through codification and the interpretation of existing treaties. I return to the point to which I referred previously, when challenged by the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, about an example of competence creep. I cited the use made of Article 122 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union to set up the European financial stability mechanism. That article, as many Members of the Committee are aware, states that financial assistance can be granted to a member state where the state is,
“in difficulties or is seriously threatened with severe difficulties caused by natural disasters or exceptional occurrences beyond its control”.
It is very difficult to argue that the case of the financial difficulties which Portugal got into were a natural disaster or entirely beyond its control. At the very least, it seems to me that there was a significant failure of regulation, and, other people would argue, of budgetary and other policies as well.
I do not want to go into that but, to many people, that seemed a bizarre interpretation of Article 122(2). It is that sort of thing that gives rise to the anxiety that the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, articulated. Of course I understand that there is a case for codification and that it will be necessary. Perhaps a significance test could be allied with that when assessing whether codification could be misused in that way. What the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, said, is not a fantasy or an imagined danger—it is very real when one looks at how legislation has happened in the past.
Lord Brittan of Spennithorne
With great respect to my noble friends Lord Waddington and Lord Lamont, I do not think that they are correct in this case. The test of what is codification and is therefore excluded from a referendum provision is an objective one. It does not depend on the procedures used to achieve the codification; it depends on whether there has been actual codification or something going beyond it. Codification, in the normal use of the word in English law, which is how the provision would be construed, means not a change in the law but the assembly in a convenient form of existing law. Of course there can be room for argument as to whether in a particular case there has been a change or merely a codification in the sense of an assembly of existing law, but the test is an objective one, not what procedure has been—
Lord Brittan of Spennithorne
Just one moment—not the way in which that has come about either in this country or elsewhere. In the last analysis, the test of whether what has happened is codification and is therefore exempt from a referendum would be applied in the normal way by the British courts applying common-law principles.
Lord Waddington
Is not my noble friend at loggerheads with the noble Lord, Lord Hannay? The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, was arguing a short time ago that there was an existing competence. It was not at that time enshrined in treaty law but, as the result of an intergovernmental agreement, there was a competence. Clause 4(4)(a) refers to the codification of a practice in relation to the present exercise of an existing competence, so I think that I am right and that my noble friend is in error.
Lord Brittan of Spennithorne
I do not think that that is the case. The question is: is it codification or not? That is the question, not how it has come about. If it is not codification but the creation of a new law, the provision exempting the requirement for a referendum does not apply. If it is codification, which will be determined by an objective test applied by British courts in accordance with normal common-law principles, it applies. That would mean that there has been no change in the law of England, however that may have come about.
Lord Waddington
Is my noble friend therefore saying that in the new article inserted in the treaty by Lisbon there was in fact no codification, although it was stated to be a codification?
Lord Brittan of Spennithorne
I am not making any statement about whether or not any particular provision was codification. I am talking about the correct interpretation of this provision in this Bill with regard to the future, which determines whether or not a referendum is called on the question. The test is an objective one: whether what occurs in future amounts to a codification, however it has been achieved, or goes beyond a codification and involves a change in the law. It is as simple as that.
Lord Blackwell
This is the one amendment this evening with which I confess that I have some sympathy. My interpretation of Clause 4(4)(a) is that it talks about the codification of practice under an existing competence. It does not talk about the codification of an existing competence but the codification of practice. As my noble friend Lord Waddington said, the EU has a history of stretching the practice of exercises of competence to take on ways of applying it that may not have originally been envisaged by those who agreed to the competence in the treaty. The example burnt in my mind is the notorious use of the health and safety provision to legislate from the EU on UK employment law a decade or so ago.
Lord Brittan of Spennithorne
I assure my noble friend that whether or not that is a good thing or a bad thing—I have a lot of sympathy with the view that excesses happened there—by no wild stretch of the imagination could that be described in English law, and we are in the process of creating a British statute, as codification. It might be wonderful; it might be disastrous; it might be neither; but it is not codification and therefore the provision would not apply.
Lord Blackwell
I said that I had some sympathy with the amendment, and I very much hope that the Minister will be able to reassure me. To my mind, that was an example of a practice coming into effect which could then be claimed was an existing practice that simply needed to be codified. I am not a lawyer, but if something can be done under an existing competence, why does it need to be codified? The EU already has the power to do what it needs. If something is then codified, the danger is that it creates a new base, or ratchets up the base, from which we can then have further ingenious development in practices. I am therefore very nervous about allowing codification of this sort to take place when, if the EU is already doing it, codification does not seem to be needed. I would very much welcome the Minister explaining and perhaps thinking again about whether that exemption is required in the Bill.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, I will now argue against the amendment on substance, having dealt with the ancient history to which we were all subjected previously; I do not want to go back on that.
A common-sense application to the amendment would lead one to regard it as bizarre. The object appears to be to ensure that if the European Union, with the agreement of the British Government—which is required under unanimity—conducted an act of genuine codification, we would have a jolly referendum about it. All I can say is that if noble Lords really want to go around this country stirring up apathy about the codification of some obscure piece of European law, common sense has flown out of the window.
The amendment is being moved, and support for it being given, on the basis of fear that a British Government will not know enough about the process to distinguish between a real codification and—in the parlance of noble Lords who support the amendment—competence creep. It is not sensible to add to the 56 other matters, to increase the number of referendums on a subject on which it is frankly just not credible that you could have a sensible political campaign involving the whole electorate of this country. I am not in favour of that.
Lord Waddington
I hope that the noble Lord will appreciate from the very fact that I am not pursuing the amendment that I use it as an opportunity to point out the severe error committed by members of his Select Committee when it carried out its study into the impact of Lisbon. I hope that he will always bear that in mind in future and that the error will not be repeated.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
I am afraid that the noble Lord is going to be disappointed.
Lord Howell of Guildford
My Lords, if there are no further comments from your Lordships on this issue, it remains for me to seek to allay the fears of my noble friend Lord Waddington on a matter which is undoubtedly complex. Indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, remarked earlier, the entire area is complex because the interface between the powers and competences of the European Union and the powers, rights and obligations of the nation state members is vastly complex and, in some senses, is in a somewhat fluid state. Indeed, it is that very fluidity that gives rise to the unease for which I believe there is substantial evidence, and I speak as someone who has been involved for just short of 50 years—even before the UK joined the then European Community—in trying to see that the European Union works in a balanced, effective and beneficial way. Over the past few years, not only in this country but in many countries we have seen an appalling record of declining confidence in, support for and public consensus over the whole construct of the European Union. In my view, the EU has conferred considerable benefits on its members and on the peace and stability of the whole world in the past, and, provided it proceeds in a sensible way with good public support, it will do so in the future in a number of, although not unlimited, areas. This is a perfectly sensible aspiration and one which I think the Bill and its aims reinforce, although I realise that that is not understood or accepted by noble Lords opposite.
The amendment would remove the provision setting out that future treaty changes which serve to codify practice under the treaties, in relation to the previous exercise of an existing competence, should not in principle require a referendum. My noble friend is concerned, as he says Members in the other place were during debates on the Bill, that codification could be used as a vehicle for transferring power or competence from the UK to the EU and that this provision might provide a loophole to allow such a transfer under a future treaty change without a referendum. If a treaty change is merely a codification of the previous practice of existing competence and nothing else in that treaty would fall within Clause 4(1) of the Bill, the Government do not think that a referendum should be required and the matter would proceed on that basis. Genuine codification—I emphasise “genuine”—is not a transfer of power or competence. The EU competence in question already exists and the EU has already acted to that effect. Even if the UK did not agree to codify existing practice by means of a treaty amendment, the EU would be able to continue to act within the relevant existing competence. Therefore, in effect there would be no point in attempting to go down another path because the EU would already be doing what it was doing within the existing competence.
An example of a treaty change which we would consider to be codification would be the introduction of a separate legal base for action previously taken to provide macro-financial assistance to some third countries. Article 352 of the TFEU, which we all know well, was used in April 2004 to provide macro-financial assistance to Albania. It was then used a further seven times to provide macro-financial assistance in a similar way to other countries. When the Lisbon treaty came along, it codified this use by providing a separate legislative base under Articles 212 and 213 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, which cover economic, financial and technical co-operation with third countries.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, can the Minister give us any idea of the quantum at stake in this amendment, given the European Union’s well known capacity to take power by whatever method it can? He mentioned the use of former Article 308 and the noble Lord, Lord Blackwell, mentioned how we were deceived in the Maastricht negotiations over the working time directive which, in the end, turned out to be part of the social policy. How many existing competences are being practised which might require codification? Is this a big area or is it something that will not happen very often because there is not much left to codify or to put in the treaty or to agree?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I do not think it is possible to quantify what will happen, what is happening or what has happened. Codification has occurred from time to time and I described one or two instances where it has occurred. There have been more. I would love to be able to say to the noble Lord that it has happened 15 times and it will happen 15 more times, but that would be completely unrealistic. I have no idea how it will occur, but it is important to ensure that we understand what genuine codification is. It will occur again and, as my noble friend Lord Brittan said, it is an objective legal concept but it is a bit like an Omega wrist watch that seems to be genuine but turns out to have nothing inside. There are non-genuine codifications and we have to watch very carefully to see that they do not join the genuine move towards competence creep, which is a phrase that people do not like. The phrase that people like in relation to the European Union is “knowing where they stand”, believing, as I think the majority of people in this country do, in the value of the European Union but feeling thoroughly uneasy about it continuing to take too many powers away from the nation states. Most nation states in Europe do not want that and we do not want it either.
Lord Triesman
“( ) provisions that strengthen the effectiveness of the European Union single market”
Lord Triesman
My Lords, with some regret, I think I am bound to irritate the noble Lord, Lord Howell, but I hope I do not irritate him so much that he regards what I say as being entirely in the world of fantasy. I hope he knows that I have a high enough regard for him not to use his time in that way.
In introducing the amendment I would like to reflect briefly on the debate on the previous amendment. Eminent Members of your Lordships’ House—and eminent lawyers—had a very clear difference of view about whether a codification exercise, which was intended to be non-binding in practice, had become a substantive change and a move of powers. I do not want to put words into the mouth of the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, but in essence I think that was his argument. The noble Lord, Lord Brittan, countermanded that argument by saying that it depends on the actual codification or whether what is being undertaken goes beyond the codification. I hope I have understood him correctly—that codification is not a change but an assembly of existing law in a convenient form. That argument is readily understood.
The contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, also readily understood that. I know from past experience in the area of employment law that in trying to make sense of a codification of different elements of law, it is necessary on occasion to reconstruct the language, to some extent at least, to ensure that the assembly adds to the process rather than produces confusion.
I do not think it is fanciful at all to think into the future and to consider that there may be a number of occasions—not rare occasions—when a lively discussion will take place about whether some new movement of competence is taking place or not. As they have today, noble Lords—and no doubt many in the other place and in the country as a whole—will take part in that discussion. Some will argue fiercely on one side that there is a change that requires a referendum, subject to having gone through a parliamentary process and subject to the possibility of judicial review—I understand all those points perfectly well—and others will argue that it is no such beast, that it does not require any of those kinds of steps because it is merely a tidying up in the sense of assembling the changes into a convenient form under the existing law.
I do not intend to be disagreeable about the points that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, has made, but I put to him this thought: that were the world a very tidy place, and were everyone to come along with changes that they wanted to see to arrangements in European law with a declaration that they were indeed changes to European law, and there were a movement of competence from one place to another, I have no doubt that we would see each of those events as a major event and everyone would understand the process in exactly the way that he describes it. But I do not think the world is like that. I think it is a much more muddled place in which people move and nudge existing arrangements to try to gain some advantage out of them or to tidy them up, in the course of which someone will say that an advantage is being gained and the argument will rapidly emerge that this is precisely what this piece of legislation was designed to prevent. That is what was called creep earlier in the debate. That is why I do not think it is reasonable, with the greatest respect, to say that it should be blatantly obvious to the Opposition or to anyone in your Lordships' House that one set of circumstances applies and that everyone can see that it would plainly happen very rarely and would require a special arrangement, rather than that there are things happening which many people will think pretty much continuously require some sort of special arrangement, because that is the nature of political life. With the amendments in this group, we are making a legitimate attempt to say that it would be helpful if Ministers had scope to move: a capability to do the necessary political work under certain circumstances and within the constructs of United Kingdom law, and to respond to the circumstances that they face.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
Perhaps I may interpose a thought on this important point. My noble friend Lord Lamont several times mentioned the European financial stability mechanism. Does the noble Lord accept that, when it comes to financial crises arising and bailouts being instituted, the mechanism will take some years to come into effect? While I agree that technology can drive an impetus for change, in general I do not see any decision-making processes in the EU being affected by this. The bailouts were urgent for the countries involved, yet they will take about two years to implement.
Lord Triesman
My Lords, I appreciate the question. With respect, I think that the noble Baroness is conflating the first amendment in this group, which concerns the efficiency of the operation of the single market, with the second, which I will come to in a moment and which concerns the strengthening of financial regulation. The issues that have just been raised may be more relevant to that.
I hope I have made the point about the steps that might be needed in order to ensure that proper competitive arrangements are in place in a business environment that changes rapidly and in which the potential for monopolistic behaviour is considerable.
I turn to Amendment 23F, which concerns the strengthening of financial regulation. I accept the point made about the time that would be taken. However, we also know about the speed at which the degradation of financial institutions took place, not just in Europe but in the United States and elsewhere; and that the aim of most of the major policy-makers in a period that was both extremely troubled and extremely complex was to intervene where they felt that they could as rapidly as possible and not necessarily against an 18-month to two-year timeframe. There was a very early consideration of whether the role of the central bank in Europe should be considered. Many nations in Europe urged each other—but not very effectively—to look at the balance sheets of the banks across Europe; at the consequences for one another of the weaknesses in their balance sheets; at the issues that have since arisen from the ridiculous ways in which a great deal of interbank lending took place; at the collapse of liquidity when it could no longer take place; and at the fact that many of the institutions were deeply indebted to each other for toxic derivative products that they traded largely among themselves, and which had in many instances destroyed their balance sheets.
I would like to think that almost everybody in this House, had they been in a position to take a view, would have said that that way lay lunacy and ruin. Almost all of us would not have gone there. Therefore, while it is true that some arrangements would take a good deal of time and some states would pore over them exactly as the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said, some emergency arrangements could have assisted in circumstances of severe financial meltdown, had they been in place.
In those circumstances somebody may very legitimately say, “This is not only a European problem—it is a worldwide problem. You would have had to engage many others as well”. Of course I accept and understand that international canvas. However, it would most certainly have helped had Europe and the European nations with considerable financial power been able to go to the original G20 conferences and make points in a very much better, co-ordinated way. You do not need treaty change to make a point in a co-ordinated way—of course you do not—but it is certainly true that had they gone and urged that they wished to use powers which were perhaps a little beyond the set of powers they had, that might have had a significant effect in the G20. From those who were at the G20, I believe that that is empirically true as well.
Finally, to sweep up this group of amendments, I turn to Amendment 23H, which addresses,
“provisions that advance the prospects of international agreement to a new global trade round”.
I promise that I will say only a little about this. However, I think that everyone has seen the enormous difficulties in achieving any successful outcomes from the Doha round and the huge difficulties in co-ordinating a European position let alone a world position. Yet everybody has believed that the success of the Doha round would be one of the fundamental drivers of a huge amount of international growth and, just as important, the elimination of a great deal of poverty around the world.
There is another case, where you can imagine small arrangements at the edge—which some will say are a codification of existing arrangements and you can bet that some will say are not—which might have made a real difference and enabled us to move faster, or may in the future enable us to move faster.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick
I agree with every word that the noble Lord has said about trade and the importance of getting a world trade agreement, although those have proved extremely elusive. However, given that trade is an exclusive—exclusive—EU competence, what is the effect of his amendment?
Lord Triesman
My Lords, the intention of the amendment is to provide the scope for further adjustments to the trade arrangements and the powers of the Commissioner dealing with trade arrangements, given that Commissioners who have dealt with trade arrangements have expressed their anxiety about the limitations that have been placed on them during the negotiations in these trade rounds. It is entirely possible—it may be part of the noble Lord’s point—that these powers exist in any case and can be handled in any case. However, the experience of the difficulty in making progress leads me to believe that there may on occasions be adjustments that would make the process easier, more helpful and capable of moving faster.
My point is not that these are all world-shattering changes—they may be small changes. The scope to make those changes, to respond to circumstances, seems to me to be a power that would strengthen the people of the United Kingdom and strengthen the EU rather than weaken the people of the United Kingdom.
Lord Blackwell
I confess that I am having some difficulty following the noble Lord’s argument on this point and I wonder whether he can help me. As my noble friend Lord Lamont has said, the EU already has exclusive competence in the area of international agreements. It has competence over the single market. It has competence over regulation. It can legislate in these areas using the normal provisions of the EU—that is what the competence gives it; that is under the existing treaty—so we are not talking about stopping it legislating. I am trying to understand what it is the noble Lord thinks might require treaty change to enable the EU to do something; and why, if it requires treaty change, that will not in any case take several years to accomplish, in the way that treaty changes normally do. I fail to understand what is the restriction to act in areas where the EU already has competence.
Lord Triesman
My Lords, I apologise if what I have said is not clear enough. My point at the very beginning of my comments was that when you begin to talk about the latitude to move in any of these areas, you can guarantee that one set of people will say that it is a new arrangement and demand the conditions which the Bill establishes for a referendum, while others will say that it is simply in the areas of competence: they can do it with a degree of codification, were that to be necessary, or they can do it under the rubric of the codified arrangements. It will always be the subject of conflict between those who believe that it is a subterfuge to extend the powers of the EU and those who believe that it can be done legitimately. I am saying that you cannot run a proper political process that way, with that much obscurity and that many arguments and with the prospect of many things not only going through our Parliament but through judicial review, and with fierce arguments around the country about the need for a referendum in those circumstances. It just strikes me as being a way of tying the hands of those who you hope and expect will be competent to conduct the discussions in the European environment to a successful conclusion in the interests of this country.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, I speak against these amendments. Amendment 23B assumes that the EU single market is a good thing for this country. That is a common misconception among the political class upon which I should like to cast a little doubt. This is a big and detailed subject and I recommend that any serious student should consult the briefing notes on the globalbritain.org website, which demolish the whole myth of the EU's economic usefulness and that of its single market.
The background point, which is not generally understood, is that the single market is more than a free trade area, it is a customs union. This means that a single customs barrier surrounds all the countries in the Union, whose international tariffs and trading arrangements are negotiated and decided centrally by the European Commission. In a free trade area, on the other hand, the countries concerned enjoy free trade among each other, but they remain able to make their own tariff arrangements with countries outside that area. They have their own seats on the World Trade Organisation and they are also able to make their own domestic law in areas such as working time, health and safety at work, part-time workers and so on.
So a country does not need to belong to the EU to enjoy free trade with it. According to a recent government Answer to me, the EU and its single market already have free trade agreements with some 63 countries outside the EU and are on their way to having similar agreements with another 75 countries, or roughly 80 per cent of the other countries in the world. It is perhaps worth noting that both Switzerland and Norway, not in the EU or its single market, both export more per capita to the single market than we do; Switzerland three times as much and Norway five times.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way, but I fear that he is in danger of misleading the House fairly elaborately in this matter. He is talking about three things, not two: the first is a free trade area, the second is a customs union and the third is the single market. Norway, he has just stated categorically, is not part of the single market. I am afraid that he is in error. It is part of the single market, and it applies single market legislation by receiving fax messages from Brussels telling it what it has to do. The members of the European economic area are in the single market but are not in a customs union. However, I am not totally sure that this line of argument is going to get us very far—but it would be useful.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
I do not want to delay the House, but that is why I made the distinction between a customs union and a free trade area.
The worst aspect of our membership of the EU single market is its sheer cost. Like their predecessors, this Government are determined to avoid an official cost-benefit analysis, and so we are left with the eight analyses that have been produced since the turn of the century, four of which are pretty much official, and which put the cost of our single market membership at anything between 4 per cent and 10 per cent of GDP. Indeed, the highest cost estimate came in 2005 from the Treasury itself in a paper entitled Global Europe: Full-Employment Europe under the signature of Mr Gordon Brown when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer. It put the cost of EU regulation at 6 per cent of GDP and of EU protectionism at 7 per cent. In March 2006, the French Conseil d'Analyse Economique, which is attached to their Prime Minister’s office, found that France had gained nothing from the single market or, indeed, the euro. In June 2006, the Swiss Government published their finding that joining the EU and its single market would be nine times more expensive than staying with their current sectoral free trade agreements with Brussels. Later in 2006, the EU Commissioner for Enterprise and Industry, Mr Günter Verheugen, said that EU regulation was costing its members some €600 billion a year, or around 6 per cent of GDP at the time.
One of the troubles with being in the single market is that this EU overregulation, whatever it costs, applies to the whole of our economy, not just to the 9 per cent that trades with clients in the rest of the EU. So the 11 per cent of our GDP that goes in trade with the rest of the world and the 80 per cent that stays in our domestic economy—91 per cent of our GDP—has to carry the burdens of Brussels’s overregulation. There are, of course, those who fear that were we to leave the EU and its single market our trade would somehow suffer and that, to quote the propaganda, 3 million jobs would be lost. The truth appears to be the opposite: trade would expand and jobs would be created. It is, of course, true that we have 3 million jobs exporting goods and services to clients in the EU, but they have 4.5 million jobs exporting goods and services to us. We are, in fact, the EU’s largest client. Would the French stop selling us their wine or the Germans their cars just because we had left the single market and were no longer bossed around by Brussels? Of course not. There are also the points that the World Trade Organisation would prevent any form of retaliation were we to leave and that the EU’s average external tariff is now below 1 per cent. Our trade is going up faster with the rest of the world than with the EU, both inwards and outwards. Our exports to the EU single market are declining. The single market is sclerotic and overregulated and its demographic trend is against it. It is the “Titanic”.
It is also hard to think of any other customs unions along the lines of the EU. There was the Soviet Union, and there may be something similar in the Caribbean, but nowhere else. Mercosur in South America does not count because its members are free to agree their trading relationships with non-members. Can the Government advise us of any other customs unions like the EU? If not, does that not suggest that it may not be such a great idea?
As to Amendment 23F, I do not think we need the EU getting more involved in financial regulation. Commissioner Barnier has openly said that he does not favour what he calls the Anglo-Saxon model, and we have yet to feel the damage done to the City of London and its ability to pay tax by the new EU supervisory bodies. When the movers of the amendment say that they do not want it to interfere with the UK’s general approach to financial regulation, I ask whether they have Monsieur Barnier’s agreement? The deed is done. Overall financial supervision has passed to Brussels. No provisions in this Bill will prevent that.
As to Amendment 23H, I fear that those of us who come from the Eurorealistic perspective would rather that the unelected Commission did not continue to negotiate on our behalf in a new global trade round. As the world’s fifth-largest economy, we would rather do it for ourselves.
Finally, is it not really grotesque that an organisation that has so dismally failed to look after the vast sums entrusted to it by the taxpayers of Europe should have its powers strengthened, or made more effective, as the amendments have it? More will certainly mean even worse, and I oppose the amendments.
Lord Empey
My Lords, I think we are straying back to a Second Reading debate, because we seem to have moved somewhat from the amendments. I shall return to what the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, said about emergencies and new technical developments that could arise and that are reasons that he is using to justify his amendment.
Of course emergencies will always arise—they are part of life’s rich panoply—and there will always be new developments, but even if they did require changes to treaties and so on, we know that that will take a considerable time. Emergencies can be dealt with by multilateral agreements, bilateral agreements or in a range of other ways, and we deal with them that way all the time. I have worked with an international treaty: the Belfast agreement. We had specific arrangements with the Irish Republic. They were codified. I suspect that people on the streets of Britain talk of little else but codification from what I have been listening to this afternoon.
The debate is so complicated that it causes the eyes to glaze over. We had specific areas of co-operation set out in an international treaty and discovered that an emergency arose. It was the prospect that we would not have enough gas on both sides of the Irish border. What did we do? Because we did not have it codified and it was not part of a treaty, the two Ministers—I was one of them—reached a bilateral agreement that we had ratified through our existing processes. We were able to do the job and get the pipeline built in a fraction of the time that it would have taken had we taken it through a formal process. I believe Governments will always be able to find a way to work together in an emergency and that when things are part of an elaborate process, that does not guarantee speed.
The amendments talk about the effectiveness of the single market, effectiveness in mitigating climate change and effective financial regulations. Effectiveness, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. If you talk about all these issues, you are talking about pretty well everything in modern life and policy. Not an awful lot is left if you include all these issues.
A fundamental underlying mistake is being made here; nations that require referendums as part of their existing constitutions are not rendered useless negotiators in Brussels. A number of our fellow members of the European Union have referendums as an integral part of their constitutions. Do we mean that the Danes or the Irish are unable to negotiate? Of course not. They are able to do it, and they sit down with fellow Ministers who might not have that requirement. Does that mean that the Danes, the Irish and others are hogtied and unable to negotiate? Over the years, they have sometimes done a jolly good deal. The recent referendum in the Irish Republic on the Lisbon treaty was initially rejected. They went back to the table and got a better deal, and then it was passed. I do not believe that that indicates in any sense that, just because a referendum might be required, a Minister, or a Government, is paralysed. In fact, the evidence is to the contrary. Of course, if it gets far too detailed and concerns trivial matters, I would agree, but I do not think that we are facing that.
In any event, this Bill is about the future. It is not about the past. I believe that there is sufficient wriggle room in the existing treaties and that you would be a pretty bad Government or a pretty weak Minister if you could not find something on which to hang a hook to move a particular measure forward. I am not confident that this Bill will be a showstopper for the European Union. Of course it will not. The European Union will continue. We have many treaty obligations in it, which I believe will be honoured, but this Bill is about preventing expansion and trying to restore public confidence. It is precisely because people do not believe politicians any more that this sort of Bill is necessary.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Taverne and I have a difficulty. A number of speeches addressing this group of amendments have moved somewhat between the groups. There have been references to later amendments. We are not quite sure whether this debate is meant to comprise the list of things being put forward by the Front Bench of the Labour Party, including this amendment as well as the others that fall within the same general area, or whether we are supposed to limit ourselves entirely to the single market. In that case, a great many speeches have been rather close to being out of order. Perhaps the Government will indicate whether they wish this debate to be limited to the single market or to take a number of these amendments together, in which case my noble friend Lord Taverne and I both wish to say something.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
As the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, recognised, and perhaps I may suggest, as this group and the groups that follow cover similar themes one might talk about this group and those that follow, which will save time later when we get to the others.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
I am grateful for that, which is exactly my view. Perhaps I might refer to what the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, said. I also associate those concepts with some of the later amendments. I will not keep the House for long. The noble Lord’s good argument was made strongly on the basis of the need in some cases for urgent decisions to be made. He pointed out that the formal procedures are long-winded and slow and that therefore in some cases it would be irrelevant to the issue that had come up because it would take so long to deal with the procedures.
I now refer to a second group of amendments, which is what I might call the Canute group. What is the Canute group? Those of us who remember the early history of Britain will remember that the king at the time ordered the tide to turn back. In other words, he insisted on not seeing the world as it is. The amendments in this group are about insisting—
Baroness Williams of Crosby
Perhaps I may finish my sentence before I give way. The amendments in this group insist, to some extent, that the urgent and very troubling issues that confront us now can somehow be put off and not dealt with at the present time.
Lord Willoughby de Broke
All I want to say is that King Canute did not order the sea to go back. He was demonstrating to his courtiers that he did not have the power to turn the sea back, so the analogy that the noble Baroness was making is incorrect.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
I defer to the noble Lord’s deep knowledge of history, but he will accept that metaphors and similes are sometimes rather broader than a deep knowledge of history would insist on them being. I insist on keeping my metaphor going for a few more minutes. The point that I want to make strongly is that issues are coming up that clearly will require a degree of competence on the part of the European Union that is not embraced in the present treaties. Unless we exclude some of these issues from the elaborate procedure of the referendum lock, we will find ourselves hobbled in trying to deal with them.
I shall give two illustrations. I particularly urge my noble friends in the Conservative Party to consider one of them very carefully. In the past couple of months we have seen some of the consequences of the Arab spring. One of those consequences has been the placing of substantial sums of money within the structures of the European Union because there is very little control over how the European Union at present deals with inflows of money from other quarters. Members of the European Parliament have shown a great deal of sense about this and have urged the European Union to take additional action, which, as I understand the Bill, will probably require the referendum lock procedure to be met.
One of the most vociferous and articulate Members of the European Parliament on this issue of how one deals with what one might believe to be illegitimate funds—funds that have been stolen from a nation by its leader or funds that have been deliberately laundered through Europe—was the spokesman of legal affairs in the European Parliament. Mr Karim is a Conservative Member of the European Parliament, and I will quote what he said because it is extremely relevant to this debate. He said:
“I would … invite Baroness Ashton, as a key architect of the EU’s new plan for north Africa, to implement strong anti-money laundering provisions as an important part of the future EU strategy in the region. More broadly, the … Commission must act to urgently address the deficiencies in the current arrangements regarding funds originating overseas. The EU cannot continue to be a savings account in which leaders of developing countries deposit their ill-gotten funds”.
Mr Karim went on to call for urgent action by the European Union, which under this Bill will of course be caught by the referendum lock.
I think that my second example will stir a number of Members of this Committee as it certainly stirs me: namely, the relative unwillingness of the United Kingdom to address the issue of human trafficking. According to the International Labour Organisation, human trafficking has now become the third largest common illicit business in the world. It is valued by the ILO at approximately €32 billion in the past year. It is third after the drug trade and the arms trade. It has burgeoned and mushroomed in the past few years.
The United Kingdom was unwilling to sign and agree to an EU directive on the trafficking of children. It refused to do so on the grounds that the United Kingdom had its own measures and did not require a European Union directive on the issue. As many will know, the argument went on month after month, with only Denmark and the United Kingdom refusing to agree to the proposed directive. In this country, the official figures are said by the Home Office, the Metropolitan Police and the UK Border Agency to be far higher than the official figures that are given. Recently, the Home Office said that the official figure for child and human trafficking was around 250 cases a year. One area of the borough of Westminster alone has found something like 1,120 children who are being trafficked. It has announced that it is having to strengthen its own steps strongly to try to deal with the issues.
I will not bore the House with telling it—
Baroness Williams of Crosby
I will not give way at the moment. I am in the middle of an argument. I will gladly give way to the noble Lord afterwards. I will not bore the House by going on about some of the unspeakably awful cases. For example, a boy from the middle of Africa was brought to this country at the age of 16 by a man who pretended to befriend him. Day after day, he was locked up in a house with just one meal a day being served to him and was repeatedly sexually abused by older men. A young mother of several children was trafficked to this country and used by up to 15 men a day against her own will. That was the price of the people who trafficked her in order not to reveal that she was an illegal immigrant.
I will not go on about this, but the cases are bloodcurdling, frightening, terrible. People are trafficked for three purposes: first, sexual exploitation; secondly, direct slavery, often in domestic work; and, thirdly—this is not unfamiliar to those of us who, like me, live in East Anglia—fruit and vegetable picking; young men and women, often children, are used in fruit and vegetable fields, often with almost no wages at all, in conditions of near slavery. We do not like to observe these issues. We like to think that that does not happen here and we reject the concept that such things can happen in an orderly and well policed state, but we are wrong. Unless we can get some international agreement, or at least a European-wide agreement, we will not be able to stop the sources that are being dealt with in other European countries in such a way as to bring this kind of thing to an end. It took 10 months for the British Government and the Prime Minister, under pressure from a group of women who organised visits and petitions to No. 10 Downing Street, finally to agree to this directive a couple of weeks ago. The Prime Minister did not want to do it because he did not want to agree that this extension of the competence of the European Union was essential to deal with this disgusting trend.
I have mentioned these things, and I shall now stop arguing them, to point out that there are what I call—I am sorry, but I shall repeat it—Canute cases, where we try to pretend that the massive structure of organised crime, ranging from the drug trade to human trafficking to money laundering, is not there. When you weigh these issues in the balance, it is right for the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, and his colleagues on the Labour Front Bench to press for certain issues not to be subject to the referendum or to the inevitable delays that follow it. These issues affect our fellow human beings, many of them British, in ways that we should never accept as a country. They require at least a reasoned reaction; they can no longer be dealt with on a purely national basis.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
Without wishing to detract in any way from the terrible situation to which the noble Baroness has so brilliantly spoken, does she have any statistics on how many of these people come here from Europe through the European open border? Would it not be easier for this country—which is, after all, an island—to police its borders more effectively if we had control of those borders? I suspect that the majority of these people come through from other countries in the European Union.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
In the case of prostitution, quite a lot of the entries are from eastern Europe. Indeed, some of the more disagreeable people have exploited the fact that the eastern Europeans are not aware of where they are going. They are offered jobs in the catering trade—hotels and so on—and then find out that they have been sold into prostitution. They are not aware of how to deal with the situation or of the safeguards that should be open to them. However, that is not the case with the other two examples I gave of domestic slavery and agricultural exploitation. In those cases, most of them come into this country, rather amazingly, straight from third countries and not by way of other member states of the European Union.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon
On the first intervention, I got the impression that the noble Baroness thought that all five groups of amendments were being taken together. Is that correct? If we are taking all five groups together we will be here for a very long time and noble Lords will miss their dinner. Could we have clarification on this?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I understood the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, to say that as this group and the following group of amendments cover a number of similar issues he had touched on some of the broader issues behind them. It was not my intention to go into the detail on all of them as the noble Baroness has just done.
Lord Taverne
My Lords, some very important issues are raised by these amendments. If they are now to be considered and debated, I do not see how we can possibly break for dinner.
Lord Triesman
My Lords, we have been urged by the usual channels to make sure that the business is handled as effectively as possible. For those reasons I spoke to group three, which has broadly related economics based arguments. I spoke to nothing else. I was kindly reminded that I would need to move the amendment at the end and, in due course, formally move the next two amendments. However, I spoke to the economic group, group three. I hope I have now made it clear.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, in that case, perhaps I may give the Government’s response on this group. We will then be able to break for dinner and return to the others later. All afternoon this has been a rather untidy debate. I almost congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, on actually mentioning in his speech the amendment under discussion. In the previous debate he did not mention the amendment we were supposed to be discussing. We are in a Committee stage debate at the moment in which one is supposed to address one’s remarks to the Bill under discussion rather than to the state of the world, the wickedness of the EU as such and all the other things he touched on in his interventions.
The noble Lord, Lord Triesman, raised large questions about global markets and global governance. As we address these amendments, we all recognise that what the EU does in competition policy, in negotiating on world trade and so on is part of a rather complex system of different intergovernmental organisations, of which the EU is one. I remind the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, that money laundering is largely dealt with, for example, under the financial action task force, which is more closely associated with the OECD than with the EU. It does it rather well. Indeed, I have read a volume by one of the noble Baroness’s close relatives which refers to how well the financial action task force does in this respect. The EU is not responsible for all of the issues involved in managing a global market. However, it has a number of extensive powers, some of which have been discussed on this occasion.
This group of amendments and the ones that follow seem, in general, to contain a number of assumptions about the Bill, the EU and what the Government think about the EU which, I repeat, are erroneous. First, the EU has competencies in all of these areas. We are not talking about extending competencies. Opting in to the human trafficking directive does not extend competences; it merely uses the available competencies in a more effective way. The treaty of Lisbon provides ample scope for EU action in the areas cited in the amendments tabled under this group and the group that follows. The assumption that the United Kingdom is tying itself up in knots and is thus unable to act and that we are the only Government who wish to go through constitutional procedures of the kinds listed in the Bill is also erroneous. As we have said, the UK Government are in the forefront of pushing for new policies in a number of areas. As the noble Baroness said, we have just signed up to the human trafficking directive.
On the Doha round, it is not the EU that is causing the problem, as the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, knows. Incidentally, when Britain first joined the European Community as it then was, one of the first things that I and many others learnt about it was Article 113 and the 113 committee, and the exclusive competence of the European Community in external trade. I am not sure what one can provide more than exclusive competence —perhaps super-exclusive competence is needed next.
We are now negotiating on services as well. The assumption that the EU is unable to act in all of this is part of the misunderstandings that others are raising. There is also the question that if the European Union suddenly found that it lacked these powers then it could rush through a treaty change in two months. Actually, we have discovered that urgent treaty changes take somewhere between 18 and 24 months. That is part of the process we have gone through. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, rightly pointed out that in a crisis you are better off negotiating rapidly in an ad hoc framework, as we often find ourselves having to on a global level—G20 has emerged as part of this—rather than attempting to go through all of these very complicated programmes.
On competition policy, the European Union has now emerged as one of the two most important forums for competition policy in managing global multinationals. Until the EU developed its competition competence, the United States effectively managed the competition policy of multinational companies and operated through extra-territorial jurisdiction in imposing its judgments on multinationals operating elsewhere. The record of the EU in competition policy has on the whole been very good. The noble Lord, Lord Triesman, is quite right to point out that innovation constantly raises new problems. That is true for all jurisdictions and there is a constant race between one international organisation and another. So far, the EU has managed as well as the federal United States in that respect.
On the lack of competences, I have looked at what used to be Article 113 and is now Articles 206 and 207. There are two areas of reserved competence in Article 207. One is on audio-visual and cultural relations—not inserted by the British but by the French—and the other is on limitations on negotiations in health, welfare and social services—not inserted by the British but by the Germans. We are not always the ones who are hesitant about giving way on sovereignty; it is often others. On the single market and global trade agreements, the EU is well supplied with competence.
On financial regulation, the EU is one among many actors. The Bank for International Settlements, the financial action task force and the range of other bodies to which the United Kingdom belongs and in which the UK is a full participant also play a role in this area. Our EU partners play a large role as well. The Government want to see—we will stress this on all these amendments—the European Union using the tools it has under existing treaties and its now very extensive competence more effectively, bringing about the benefits that we want to see the EU delivering for the British people and everyone across the European Union. The noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, made an excellent speech on our previous Committee day precisely expressing those sentiments. Those are sentiments that the Government share. Having said all that, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, will be willing to withdraw his amendment. Then we will return to the next group on similar arguments after dinner.
Lord Davies of Stamford
I did not want to interrupt the noble Lord’s flow while he was speaking, but I have a rather important question. He referred to Article 207 and the derogation in that from the usual procedures on the common foreign policy that the council needs to act unanimously in these two matters involving, first, trade in cultural and audio-visual services, which he said was a provision put in at the demand of the French, and secondly, the field of social, education and health services, which he said was put in at the demand of the Germans. The noble Lord was really saying that here was a case when the treaty needed to be amended to accommodate the particular requirements of those two countries. They were not our requirements and we would rather have had no derogation in the common foreign trade policy. Let us suppose that the French and German were prepared to remove those two derogations or obstacles to freer international trade. Is it the case that under the Bill we would then require a referendum to allow the Germans and the French to agree to give up concessions which they had previously obtained?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I have spent a good deal of my adult life studying and teaching on the European Union. I struggle to imagine a situation in which the French Government would suddenly decide, on their own and as a single action without asking for any concessions in any other area, to give up that. Hypothetically, in a parallel universe inhabited by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, and a number of other people, it is always possible that these things might happen. In the practical life of the way that the European Union works, that seems completely inconceivable.
Lord Davies of Stamford
I am grateful for that response which seems to reveal that there is potential for a complete absurdity, which must also exist elsewhere in the treaty. We would force a referendum on ourselves simply because some other member state was prepared to adopt more communautaire policies in the future and to withdraw concessions that previously they had insisted upon.
Lord Triesman
I thank all noble Lords for the contributions to the debate, in particular the noble Baroness, Lady Williams. I know we will get to people-trafficking in a later group. It is a critical issue. The examples around money laundering and the massive theft from states of their assets by their erstwhile and in some cases current leaders are also huge issues.
Of course I understand that the EU is not the only player in the global marketplace. It is not responsible for managing the whole of the global market place. I am sure there is a balance of weaknesses and strengths, but one of its strengths has been that when it has been able to act together and in a competent way its impact on other international bodies has been enormous. That is the solid evidence that has come from commissioner after commissioner, particular in the areas of competition and trade. It has been the commissioners in the areas of competition and trade who have pointed most frequently to the empirical evidence for the weaknesses when it is impossible to move effectively because of restrictions on activity. That seems to be quite central to this general proposition.
I understand where the competencies lie. I can read the texts in exactly the same way as any other Member of your Lordships’ House but I am mightily impressed by the debate that we had just before this one started and other debates of a similar kind that I have heard over the years. I know that people do not go to the pub to talk about codification—quite rightly and nor should they. Yet one party says that something that is a tidying-up exercise of one kind or another is a fundamental change and it produces what it regards as overwhelming evidence of that. Other people say—I have probably done it myself—that that is nonsense, that it is simply a tidying up and how could anyone else read that much into it?
We have heard today and on so many occasions that, because this is the EU, this will be the subject of major contention. It will be the subject of real arguments and people urging the use of powers. In those circumstances, as we try to proceed within the realm of what many of us believe are the competencies, we will find that someone will argue or powerful bodies will argue that it is a fundamental change—more fundamental, at least, than I or indeed the government Front Bench have argued that it should be—and the lock will become a threat to doing it at all. That is how it will be played out. It will be the tactical opportunity that anyone would take in the circumstances. It would be naive to believe that that is not true when it is exactly what will happen.
I seek leave to withdraw this amendment but I do so by predicting that if this Bill proceeds as it is written, the scope for Ministers to behave effectively will be reduced and in some cases—in the current climate, money laundering is a very good example—they will be left way behind the game. That will lead to a very negative judgment about our sometimes rather meagre capacity for foresight.
Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules
(13 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
To move that this House regrets that the Government have not published a comprehensive explanation of the findings from the consultation on Tiers 1 and 2 relating to the Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules. (HC 863)
Relevant document: 27th Report from the Merits Committee.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, this Statement, HC 863, makes a number of significant changes to tier 1 and tier 2 of the points-based system to implement the Government’s strategy for reducing non-EEA economic migration. The change follows a public consultation and a number of other notable statements of changes in immigration policies.
The key changes to tier 1 are as follows: to close the in-country category, other than for extension applications for migrants who are already in the UK in that category or one of the categories now proposed that preceded the introduction of the points-based system; to create a new category in tier 1 of the points-based system for exceptionally talented economic migrants with a limit of 1,000 grants of entry clearance in the first year of operation; and to implement changes to the tier 1 categories for entrepreneurs and investors, including provisions for accelerated settlement.
The key changes to tier 2 are: first, to implement changes to the tier 2 intra-company transfer category, including differing requirements for transfers depending on whether they are to be for more or less than 12 months; secondly, to implement changes to the tier 2 (general) category, including a limit of 20,700 overseas applicants who can be sponsored under it in the first year; and, thirdly, to revise minimum skill, salary and English-language thresholds.
The Merits Select Committee has made the point that the parliamentary scrutiny process for this type of instrument is unusual, yet with any policy changes of this importance the Government should always be aware of the need to allow the House full opportunity to scrutinise the changes. The committee was previously critical of the lack of information presented to Parliament to explain why HC 698 effectively ended tier 1 (general) to overseas applicants. As a result, the Merits Committee wrote to Damian Green, the Minister for Immigration, saying that it would have expected to see an evidence-based explanation of why the Government were changing tier 1, some measurement of the impact of the changes and a more comprehensive explanation of the findings from the consultation on which the changes were based. The committee also asked for assurance that a better package of supporting information would be provided when the full migration limits were introduced in April.
The House will be aware of the Opposition's concern about the approach that the Government have taken and the impact of the migration cap on business, the arts and the university sector. Indeed, we have debated that on a number of occasions in the past few months. We have also been concerned about the reputation of the UK and the potential advantage that we are giving to other countries to recruit highly skilled migrants. Tonight, however, I want to focus specifically on the points raised by the Merits Select Committee, to which the House is once again indebted for the quality of its scrutiny and the advice which it gives to the House on matters which it considers ought to be debated by your Lordships.
The Merits Select Committee, as I have already said, has been consistently concerned about the lack of evidence-based information provided by the Government. It is a matter of great regret that, despite the committee writing to the Minister to ask for a better package of supporting information, the fact is that, as the committee has reported, the Government have made only limited information available from the outcome of the consultation on this policy. The Explanatory Memorandum says that the changes to tiers 1 and 2 have been developed following a full public consultation. It refers to Limits on non-EU Economic Migration—the title of the consultation, which ran from 28 June to 17 September 2010—with a summary of the findings published on the UKBA website.
However, the summary shows that there is a high level of interest in the development of the policy, since more than 3,000 responses were received to the questionnaire during the consultation period from a range of organisations including accountancy firms, manufacturers, telecommunications, universities, transport, retail, the media, the health sector, third sector organisations, trades unions and professional bodies as well as private individuals. Yet the summary is limited to a two and a half page numerical breakdown of the responses, with a few unattributed suggestions, and an annexe providing a list of the 571 responding organisations that provided their details. Unfortunately, as the Merits Committee says, there is no information about the rest of the respondents who were the great majority of those more than 3,000 respondees. The committee goes on to say that it considers that this does not provide a sufficiently detailed account of what has been learnt from the consultation exercise, and therefore allows only a limited understanding of the resulting decisions.
I would be grateful if the Minister would specifically respond to that criticism and perhaps give the House a rather fuller flavour of the consultation outcome. I put it to her that the paucity of information might perhaps reflect that the Government did not find much support for their proposals from respondents to the consultation. I would also like some reassurance that the Government will respond to the committee’s request for fuller information.
I would also like to ask the Minister about the impact assessment. The Merits Committee thinks that, because of the challenging nature of the policy objectives, the impact assessment has an important role in providing reassurance that the migration cap policy is indeed based on solid evidence. The problem is that the assessment does not provide that, as the committee identified; there is inadequate information about the relationship between migration and social cohesion, little evidence of the impact on employers and silence on how the Government will manage any perceptions of unfairness as a result of the changes and how that would apply particularly to the Indian subcontinent. I would be grateful if the Minister commented on those criticisms. How will the changes made by this Statement be monitored and reported to Parliament in due course?
I invite the Minister to comment on some of the points raised in the incredibly useful briefing that noble Lords have received from the Immigration Law Practitioners’ Association, which is particularly concerned about the process for selecting migrants for inclusion in the tier 1 “exceptional talent” category and for the identification of highly trusted sponsors in relation to tier 2. The association’s concern is the absence of a structured framework in which judgments can be exercised so that cases can all be treated in a like way. Any help that the Minister could give on this would be much appreciated. I should also say that the ILPA has raised a number of other interesting points, and I would welcome the Minister’s assurance that her officials will commit to discussing them with the association.
It is concerning that a Statement introducing a significant change of policy in such a sensitive and important area is being introduced on the basis of less than adequate information being given to Parliament. This is not the first time that this point has been made to the Minister about the Home Office’s approach to statutory instruments and rule changes—I am indebted to the Merits Committee for identifying these issues—and that approach means, inevitably, that there will be a prayer against those changes or SIs and we will have these debates. It would be appreciated if the Minister gave some sense that the Home Office has reflected and is reflecting on these criticisms so that fuller information is given on SIs in future, which would then mean that we would not necessarily have a continuation of these prayers, which at the moment are on what seems to be a weekly basis, on the number of SIs that are coming through to your Lordships’ House. I beg to move.
Lord Judd
My Lords, I am particularly grateful to my noble friend for his perceptive intervention. I want to underline two points that I thought were particularly important. The first was that any move in this sphere—indeed, in any sphere of government—should be evidence based. It is very dangerous when one starts meddling in human affairs without a convincing analysis of the implications and of what the outcomes are likely to be.
The second point is the impact. We all know that one of the difficulties with immigration policies is that so often the weight of immigration falls upon communities that are already underresourced in terms of education, health, social provision and indeed employment. It is those areas that find themselves on the front line and this, understandably, can lead to tensions. It is therefore very important to see how any move in immigration policy is linked to social policy and economic policy so that the whole thing stands convincingly together. Those were two crucial points made by my noble friend.
I would like to raise a slightly wider issue which is very pertinent to these proposals. We talk about the importance of joined-up government. I am very glad that the Minister who is replying has the portfolio she has, because, whether she agrees with me or not, she will understand why I am making this point. She has heavy responsibilities in security matters, which she discharges very convincingly. We are concerned about global stability and global security. Anyone who is concerned about those issues must recognise that they are related to the economic situations that prevail in various parts of the world.
Lord Avebury
My Lords, I am not going to follow the noble Lord, Lord Judd, down the road that he travelled, except to say that the impact assessment covers a multitude of subjects in great detail in the areas of statutory equality duties, economic impacts, environmental impacts, social impacts and sustainability. However, I do not think that it addressed the question of security. It will be interesting to hear what my noble friend has to say on the matter when she winds up.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for introducing this Motion and enabling us to debate a very important set of rules, as well as for his useful explanation of its purpose and of the Merits Committee’s comments. I add one point to the many useful ones that he made in his speech—that these changes to the Immigration Rules came into effect on 6 April, 15 days after the statement was laid and one day into the Easter Recess. I thought there was a convention that rule changes had to be laid 21 days before they came into force. I ask my noble friend why that seems to have fallen into disuse. Does she not find it incongruous that we are considering this instrument when it is already the law and, whatever we say, it is too late to alter any of its provisions?
As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, rightly said, the Merits Committee report complained about the level of supporting information when the Government foreshadowed the termination of the tier 1 (general) order for applicants from overseas, and asked for this to be rectified when the full policy on caps was introduced. However, the Government still have not published the full report on the consultation on tiers 1 and 2, a month after publication of the Merits Committee report. I hope my noble friend will explain the reasons for the delay, which, as the Merits Committee says, makes it difficult to understand why the Government took the decisions that they did and whether the changes to tiers 1 and 2 will achieve their policy objectives.
Again, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, pointed out, the abolition of the tier 1 (general) category affects a wide range of organisations, as evidenced by the 3,200 responses to the consultation. These are summarised in very general terms in a two-page annexe to the impact assessment, but there may be large differences between the impact on, say, the universities on one hand and the health service on the other, to pick just two of the employers that have relied on tier 1 (general) in the past. There is the new category, which the noble Lord mentioned, of “exceptional talent” for internationally recognised scientists and cultural achievers, the criteria for which are to be agreed between the UKBA and “designated competent bodies”, which are yet to be listed on the UKBA website as the Explanatory Memorandum proposes. We are told nothing about these DCBs. Presumably there will be different ones for each speciality, such as the Royal College of Surgeons if the applicant is a surgeon, or the Institution of Mechanical Engineers if the applicant happens to be a mechanical engineer.
The 700 scientific and 300 cultural endorsements are to be divided among the DCBs, according to the standard note by the Library in another place—presumably by the UKBA in consultation with the DCBs. The note says that each of them will set its own criteria. Apparently there is no system to ensure consistency between the criteria, or to decide who the lucky winners are if the number of endorsements exceeds the allocation for a particular DCB. A crude way of dealing with that problem might be to provide in the guidance that each DCB should stop looking at applications once it has awarded the number allocated. However, that could mean having to turn away candidates who are even better qualified than the ones who have already been approved. Unlike for tier 2, there is no division of the total number of allocations by month, so the total could be exhausted very early in the year.
We welcome the amendments to the rules resulting from challenges in the courts to the Government’s right to add to or modify the rules in guidance that is not subject to parliamentary approval. Unfortunately, this means that more frequent statements of changes to the Immigration Rules, which are already fairly prolific, as the noble Lord has pointed out, are likely to come before your Lordships in the future. As Lord Justice Sedley said in his judgment on the Pankina case, this is an issue of constitutional importance. I pay tribute to ILPA’s briefing, as the noble Lord did. Its briefings are always extremely thorough and readable. ILPA suggests that there should be an audit of guidance to ensure compliance with the Pankina case. Perhaps my noble friend could say whether the amendments dealt with in paragraph 7.16 of the Explanatory Memorandum indicate that the UKBA has already carried out such an audit, to the extent that she can assure your Lordships that no further scope exists for litigation asking for judicial review of refusals that are based on guidance only, and not on the rules.
Tier 2 is divided into two: jobs which are exempt from the new limit because they are on the shortage occupation list or have been advertised in accordance with the resident labour market test, for which an employer can issue an unrestricted certificate of sponsorship; and jobs that are on the graduate occupations list of jobs eligible for tier 2, for which the employer has to ask the UKBA for permission to issue a restricted certificate of sponsorship. On 11 April the first monthly allocation of certificates of sponsorship took place and 1,028 were issued compared with the 4,200 that were available, meaning that the balance of more than 3,000 was carried forward to be added to May's 1,500.
At first glance one would suppose that the demand by employers for highly skilled workers from overseas had tailed off partly because of the recession but also because the applicants are required to have a better command of English and to have a degree-level qualification. If there are shortages of workers at the previous threshold of NQF level 3, they will have to be satisfied by stepping up the number of apprenticeships in this country. The Merits Committee reports that concerns were expressed by employers about whether the tier 1 cap would enable them to get the staff they need, but since a worker who had previously satisfied the tier 1 (general) criteria would qualify under the new tier 2 (general) conditions, it should have been possible for the affected employers to switch from tier 1 to tier 2, and evidently that did not happen, at least in the first month of the scheme’s operation. As the Merits Committee says, there was not enough evidence from the consultation to enable us to look at particular sectors to see where the shoe was pinching. I wonder whether my noble friend can tell the House what she is hearing from particular employers' organisations now that the scheme is actually in operation.
There is a known shortage of skills in the NHS, with a third of all medical staff already having qualified overseas. A leading medical recruitment agency says that cuts across the board in the healthcare sector have led to a decline in medical jobs across the UK but there are still job opportunities for GPs, nurses, midwives, and community nurses, for example. However, with the cuts biting, hospital trusts may be forced to look harder for doctors and other professionals in the European Union or to postpone recruitment, even at the cost of lowering standards of healthcare.
Tier 2 includes special provision for ministers of religion, which includes in this context members of religious orders. The rules assume that any minister coming to the UK is employed by their church, mosque, gurdwara or temple, but this creates a problem for Theravada Buddhist monks—perhaps this applies also to monks of other faiths—who are not employees and do not touch money. The rules also require that the post to be filled should be advertised to demonstrate that there is no suitably qualified candidate available on the UK labour market. It is manifestly absurd that temples should be required to advertise in the UK for a monk who is unpaid, has to speak Thai, Sinhala, Vietnamese or Burmese, as the case may be, is required to eat only one meal a day, remain celibate, abstain from alcohol and other mind-altering substances and be able to teach the dhamma. For some monks here it is not necessary to be proficient in English because their duties will be almost entirely with the diaspora from the particular country where they were ordained. There are monks of British origin here but they do not move from one monastery to another as a result of competitive forces because the vinaya or discipline is the same in all Buddhist monasteries.
I should perhaps declare an interest as patron of the Buddhist Prison Chaplaincy Organisation, which has a close association with a Buddhist monastery where these difficulties have arisen. The ultimate authority on these matters is the Buddhist Sangha UK, which was established in 2006 to speak for the body of Theravada monks, but was not consulted when the details of tier 2 were formulated. Clearly, the needs of Buddhist monasteries and the Immigration Rules for ministers of religion are mutually incompatible, and this needs to be discussed with the Sangha.
Lord Haskel
My Lords, I join other noble Lords, my noble friend Lord Hunt and the Merits Committee in regretting that the Government have not published a comprehensive explanation of the findings from their consultation. Could that be because the consultation showed that the changes were a mistake and there was little support for them, as my noble friend Lord Hunt suggested? Let me put on record some of the consultations that I have carried out.
I shall quote from a briefing note dealing with the impact on the Imperial College Business School of the changes in the work permit regulations, particularly the recent decision to abolish the two-year post-study visa. The briefing note states:
“The UK’s main competitors in the higher education sector use post study work options to attract the best students. Without post study work options the UK and HE will lose valuable revenue, talent and impact our reputation”.
The school polled its non-EU graduate students, who comprise more than 50 per cent at that college. Of those, three-quarters indicated that they would not have chosen to study in the UK without the availability of these post-study visas. I put it to the Minister that this decision was inconsistent not only with the interests of Imperial College, but also with the policy of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.
In March, along with the Budget, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills issued its Plan for Growth. Page 6 states that Britain should be the,
“home to more of the world’s top universities than any other country except the USA”.
Surely, Imperial College must be part of that ambition. Was BIS consulted as well as Imperial College? On page 91 of the Plan for Growth, the Government speak of healthcare and life sciences as key contributors to our future economy. Paragraph 2.185 states:
“Innovation is a key driver of long-term growth in the sector”.
I recently visited Professor Molly Stevens at Imperial College. She is its professor and research director for biomedical materials. Perhaps noble Lords will join me in congratulating her on being ranked by the Times Eureka magazine as second among the UK’s top 10 scientists under 40. She carries out exactly the type of work that the Government’s Plan for Growth identifies as a key driver of long-term growth. I shall quote what she said to me:
“In my particular group I have several very talented postdoctoral fellows. Ten of these come from outside Europe. I have absolutely no doubt that it is this combination of highly skilled people that has helped to make my group so successful. If I had not been able to take on those 10 international fellows then our work would have been of significantly lower impact. Facilitating visas for these people to work for us would bring so much value and advantage to our UK universities—they are completely invaluable. These staff, although highly skilled, will typically have earned very little during their PhD studies, making it even more difficult to qualify for some high skilled visa categories”.
If her work is a key driver for our long-term growth, were she or any of her colleagues consulted?
Was BIS consulted, because that is part of its policy? What about other parts of government? Were they consulted? Last Thursday, we had an interesting debate in your Lordships' House on soft diplomacy. Noble Lords spoke about building relationships with the next generation; how people who work and study here become our best ambassadors; how we build lasting ties in that way—just the sort of relationships that Imperial College is operating. Winding up, the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Howell, agreed with all of those comments. Indeed, he told us that the FCO had nearly completed a UK soft power business plan to reinvigorate and promote that very thing. Was the FCO consulted?
My noble friend Lord Judd spoke of joined-up government. Was there any joined-up government? Were the findings of the consultation just ignored? If they were properly considered, surely the Government would have found a way for the Borders Agency to control immigration in such a way that it did not help to defeat the stated aims of other government departments and cause difficulties for institutions on which the Government's policy depends.
I support my noble friend’s Motion because my consultation and the Government's decision are incompatible. I urge the Government to think again. Perhaps the most valuable role that this House performs for any Government is to provide a pathway for them to think again. I hope that the Minister will take advantage of that.
Baroness Valentine
I first declare that I am the chief executive of London First. I acknowledge that the Government have done a lot to address business concerns about the immigration caps. I remain, however, a sceptic on the benefits of a tier 1 and tier 2 cap and I certainly remain a sceptic about a net migration target where the Government have so little control over the factors influencing it. They cannot control immigration; they cannot control relative economic performance of countries or EU in flows and out flows. However, we are only one month into the new scheme, and we now need some stability and the opportunity to monitor the scheme's impact.
I make one plea of the Minister. Will she consider conducting a thorough economic and social impact study towards the end of this year so that we can improve the scheme based on evidence?
The Earl of Sandwich
I came in to say only a word in support of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. I am very concerned about these rules going through without discussion. As the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, said, this is a water-under-the-bridge debate; we do not have time to have any impact. I have read the Merits Committee report and note the committee's disappointment about the lack of information all over the place. The Government are proposing major changes to the Immigration Rules which under the previous Government and the one before would have been the subject of serious debate— I have taken part in many of those debates.
The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and I went to a meeting this evening at which we heard reports of the Government’s hesitation about a proposed new convention on domestic labour. The noble Baroness, Lady Williams, in the earlier EU debate, said that the Government were reluctant about the EU directive on trafficking. The Government, whether it is in the Department for Work and Pensions or the Home Office, must pay careful attention to their international reputation in all these categories and, above all, ensure that the proposals are given the fullest public attention before they come into effect. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has already emphasised, these are sensitive issues. We must not have immigration policy by stealth.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville-Jones)
My Lords, a number of points have been made in this debate, which inevitably I suppose has evolved into a discussion on the operation of policy. I am not in a position to answer all the questions that were raised, some of which were quite detailed, but I shall do my best, and I promise to write to noble Lords on other points if I am not able to cover them.
The issue at hand is whether the Government should have published a more comprehensive analysis of the outcomes of the consultation. The Merits Committee, to which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred, felt that the evidence published with the report was not adequate, and the Government take serious note of what the committee has said. However, I should like to begin my reply by putting the matter into context. I confess to being a little surprised that the noble Lord has brought forward this Motion, given the Opposition’s record in this area. Perhaps I may give an example or two.
In March 2010, the previous Government made significant changes to tier 4—they said they were significant—concerning the student route. Despite taking the views of key partners, they did not publish any formal explanation of the findings. In March 2009, they also made stringent changes to tier 1 concerning the general and post-study categories, and tightened the resident labour market test. On that occasion, the Government did not undertake any consultation and consequently could not set out any employers’ views because no views were sought, so I do not think that that is much evidence of policy-based evidence, which we have been told this evening is so important. In March 2006, following consultation, the previous Government published their policy for a points-based system, which we are following, branding it as,
“the most significant change to managed migration in the last 40 years”.
Again, the noble Lord has just said how important it is to base this policy on evidence and to make that evidence available. However, I think that the House will note that the previous Government did not publish the 517 consultation responses that they received at the time. I am not going to continue in this vein but it would be remiss of me not to expose double standards. Frankly, I think that it is a bit of a case of pots and kettles.
What have this Government done? We have gone to some lengths to set out our findings. The process began on 28 June last year, when the consultation paper was published. As has been said, we received more than 3,000 replies, and officials also spoke to 1,500 employers during the consultation period. That is a considerable volume of paper and consultation, and it was studied very carefully. My colleague, the Minister for Immigration, launched the Home Office research report entitled The Migrant Journey. This report, drawing on all the consultation, provides for the first time a great deal of useful evidence about migrants’ behaviour and their pathways to settlement. As the Minister said at the launch, the information showed that we needed to look harder at who can qualify in both the work and study categories to make sure that we attract the right people. I think that this country should be about attracting the brightest and best people. In November last year, the Home Secretary made a speech to business leaders setting out the Government’s broad objectives and strategy. She referred to the evidence that we received and how we would be acting on it. In November, she made a full Statement to the House setting out the details and giving figures on the basis of which the decision had been informed.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness and to other noble Lords who have taken part in this important debate. The noble Baroness referred to the previous Government. I am sure that we can trade experiences of previous Governments, and that is always good sport, but one thing that the previous Government did do was to take the reports of the Merits Select Committee very seriously. One of the important conclusions of our debate is our asking the Government to reflect on the experience of this SI in relation to future changes that may be made in the Immigration Rules and the way in which information should be given to Parliament.
As my noble friend Lord Haskel said, this is a very important change. I am sure that he is right to reflect to the House on the potential impact that these changes might have on some of our most of successful institutions. The noble Baroness referred to the comments of the CBI director-general. Of course she is right to suggest that, as a result of the consultation, some changes were made in the Government's approach. We are very glad that that happened. She will be aware of the very high level of concern—particularly in the business, university and arts sectors—about the impact that the original proposals would have on them. However, as my noble friend Lord Haskel suggested, there are still concerns in those sectors about the impact. He referred to Imperial; he also referred to BIS and its role in promoting UK interests. Clearly there is concern that the proposals, as now enunciated in this statement of change, will none the less have an adverse effect on British interests.
I would say to the noble Baroness that my experience in the health field and in the Department of Health is that whatever the tensions—and there have been tensions—about the recruitment of overseas students into our medical schools, the fact is that for very many years the NHS has depended on those students becoming doctors and working in the NHS. Also, the evidence suggests that when those doctors go back to their home countries, the links that they maintain with UK medicine and the UK medical and pharma industries have been immensely valuable to the UK. It is very important that we do not lose those contacts. The noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, had a very good point to make about the need to analyse the economic and social impact of these measures—I think she suggested by the end of the year. I very much hope that that point is taken to heart.
European Union Bill
(13 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Liddle
“( ) provisions that strengthen the effectiveness of the European Union to mitigate the effects of climate change”
Lord Liddle
My Lords, with the permission of your Lordships, in order to expedite the business of the Committee—because we have no desire to be thought to be unduly delaying the consideration of the Bill—it would help if, for Clauses 4 to 7, we have a single debate on the remaining groups of amendments that we have tabled that come under the same broad heading. The common features of these amendments are that these are all areas where we believe that there is a broad ranging, cross-party political consensus in this House and in the country that Europe is a good thing and that we would like to see Europe acting effectively in these areas. There is a consensus on these issues and on the need to have a more effective Europe. Also we agree with the Government’s argument that, to a very large extent, the Lisbon treaty provides the European Union with sufficient competences and powers to deal with many of these issues.
We agree with that argument with two exceptions. One is the point that I made with some force—although I know that the Government did not agree with it—namely, that the Government are trying to have their cake and eat it on the Lisbon treaty. They are saying that the Lisbon treaty gives us all that we need but they are also trying to say that the provisions of the Lisbon treaty cannot in important respects be brought into force without referendums. The Government wish to restrict the passerelles, Article 48(6) and anything which provides flexibility within the Lisbon treaty. So it is not true that the Government stand behind the Lisbon treaty; they are seeking to tie up its implementation in important ways, which could be detrimental to the European Union being effective in the areas that we wish it to be effective.
Secondly, treaty drafters are not blessed with perfect foresight; they cannot anticipate all the circumstances that might occur ahead of them in the real world. A good example of that is the need for the treaty change, under the simplified revision procedure, to establish a European stability mechanism to deal with the sovereign debt crisis in the euro area. No one anticipated that at the time that the Lisbon treaty was going through the House. One has to recognise that circumstances can change.
When the Government say, “No change in anything for this Parliament” and, “We will not have lots of multiple referenda but we may at some stage in the future have another big revision”, we fear that it will defer the possibility of flexibility in the European Union powers for some considerable time—probably, at the minimum, a decade. We have to ask ourselves whether this is a sensible, realistic policy. The Government say that it is realistic because there is no will on anyone’s part to change the treaties and, therefore, that their policy is not out of line with the rest of the European Union. However, we saw in the establishment of the European stability mechanism that, when faced with a crisis, the European Union was prepared to act and to take the necessary powers.
The amendments deal with a series of areas and I do not intend to go over each one. I shall give one or two examples of where, within a medium-term time horizon, there might be a need for action which could result in pressure within the EU for some kind of treaty change, probably under the simplified revision procedure. The fear on this side of the House is that the Government are putting themselves in a position where they will rule it out on principle, without any serious consideration of the issues, and Britain will find itself isolated and ineffective when I am sure many of us in this Chamber want it to be playing a leading and effective role in the Union.
The examples in Amendments 23C and 23E relate to climate change and energy security. On climate change, the commitment of the EU to put itself at the forefront of the battle to tackle climate change has been striking. At the same time, at the Copenhagen summit the EU found itself largely bypassed. On energy, we all know that there is a real problem. There is a lack of common policy, particularly among the big member states of the Union, in our dealings with the major energy suppliers, particularly Russia. These are problems that are widely accepted within the European Union. There is a desire for Europe to be stronger on these issues. It is possible—I am not saying it is certain—that people might come up with treaty proposals or amendments to the treaty under Article 48(6) to address these weaknesses.
Lord Deben
What would the referendum question be, were such a suggestion to be made? Would that referendum question be capable of a reasonable yes or no answer for the majority of the people of Great Britain?
Lord Liddle
The noble Lord, Lord Deben, has made an apposite intervention. I do not know what the relevant question would be but this is something in the real world that Ministers might have to address. It could enormously strengthen the Union’s capacity to deal with climate change and energy issues.
Amendments 23J and 23L are further examples. Amendment 23L is on piracy. We know that there is a growing problem of piracy, particularly in the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean. We know that an EU force is attempting to deal with this problem but that its efforts are inadequate. What is the reason for that? Is it a lack of resources or commitment on the part of the member states? That is possible, but another explanation is that the basis on which the force is patrolling this area does not match the tough circumstances that need to be dealt with. There is no agreement between the member states on the terms of engagement between the EU force and the pirates. There is no agreement on the circumstances in which force can legitimately be used.
These are difficult issues to tackle within the European Union because they touch on terribly sensitive issues to do with defence and armies, areas where the European Union has rightly been cautious in getting involved. I am not in favour of a European army, nor is the Labour Party, so do not try to say that this is trying to open the door to that.
Lord Liddle
Yes, the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, is right about that.
We are not talking about that but it could be, if we are going to have an effective force for this purpose, that we need to have a much more integrated force posture with common rules of engagement. That is a possibility that member states in these particular circumstances ought to be prepared to consider.
Look at north Africa, where the events occurring mean that the European neighbourhood policy and the Union for the Mediterranean require a complete rethink in their light. We need, as a European Union, to develop a coherent policy which particularly offers those countries in north Africa which are going down the path of strengthening democracy and human rights incentives for going further in that direction. I was interested in a piece that I read—I think it was yesterday—by Peter Sutherland about what might be necessary in order to make that policy happen. It involves tackling very sensitive and difficult issues, such as the need to have more flexible rules on immigration for people from those countries so that they can come and study in Europe, spend time here and then go back there. It requires having more flexible rules on trade so that trade with the European Union can boost their economies and jobs. That would do something about the appalling problems of youth unemployment in those countries. It may require a more common approach to asylum. We are potentially facing having 400,000 people in refugee camps in north Africa, so I read in a newspaper article the other day. These are issues that cannot be addressed in 10 years’ time but on which the European Union needs to develop credible policies, in its own interests, in the next year or two.
Most of the time, we obviously want Europe to use its existing powers under the existing treaties. Yet are we saying that we would not contemplate any change at all? This is the Williamson question which was asked earlier. The Government are getting themselves into a trap here. The coalition has pursued a positive approach to the European Union so far in its negotiations, but if they really believe that they are pursuing a pro-European policy, we urge them to be flexible on these issues and to recognise that we do not want to tie ourselves down with referendum requirements in areas where there is cross-party agreement and a general consensus that we need a stronger and more effective European Union. I beg to move.
Lord Davies of Stamford
My Lords, the most important theme emerging from the contribution on this side of the Committee to the debate tonight is the need for the European Union, like any businesslike and serious organisation, to retain the capability for flexibility in responding to what are unpredictable and therefore, necessarily, unpredicted situations. That is enormously important and it is quite clear that the Government are, by contrast, saying of the European Union that we should remain rigidly anchored on the existing constitutional arrangements until and unless, by some enormous shift involving a public referendum in this country, there is a sudden, seismic change. That is the fundamental difference between the perception on this side of the House and that on the other side of the way that the European Union ought to be conducted.
Many of us on this side have the considerable suspicion that, because the Government’s attitude is so unrealistic in relation to what would be the requirements of any organisation that expected to survive in the modern world, there is actually a Machiavellian plan deliberately to make the EU inflexible, to cause crises and conflicts and, at some dramatic interlude, to stymie the whole of the EU. We know that many members of the Conservative Party have had that agenda for a long time.
There is a particular issue of flexibility facing me at the moment. As I understand my noble friend, he has suggested that in the interests of the House and of making rapid progress, we should debate in one session all the amendments from Amendment 23C to 23L. I understand that they cannot be formally moved together en bloc, but my noble friend’s suggestion was that they should be discussed and debated as such and I am happy to do that. If I receive so much as an eyebrow signal from either Front Bench that I am doing the wrong thing, I will sit down and try to address the House again under Amendment 23L, which is what I was intending to do. Unless I receive such a signal, I shall proceed to make a few remarks about that amendment against the background of the theme that I have just set out, which is the unifying theme in all the debates that we are having on this clause.
Amendment 23L deals with the issue of piracy. As my noble friend rightly says, this is a grave and serious problem that does not merely affect east Africa but, unless we get this right, could affect large areas of the world because, if piracy is shown to be something that pays and makes a lot of money with impunity, others will inevitably get involved in it. We will return to a situation that we thought we had left behind in the 19th century when the Royal Navy, above all, in collaboration with the navies of other civilised countries succeeded in more or less extirpating piracy, which had been such a threat to lives, to civilisation and to developing world trade, and I do not think anyone wants that to happen.
My noble friend Lord Liddle sensibly said—I agree—that there may be great advantage in trying to review and standardise the terms of engagement of our various naval units and fleets that are off the coast of east Africa at present. It is slightly absurd that we have three task forces there—one American, which we are supporting, one NATO and one EU. That does not seem a sensible way of making progress, but I leave that matter aside.
I agree with what my noble friend said about the probable need for greater operational co-ordination. I am not sure whether that raises the issues of the Bill in relation to changes in the competences or powers of the European Union, but I have a suggestion to make to the House. I listened with respect, as I always do, to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, when he commented the other day that, by saying that in future the EU might need some particular power and it would not be sensible for us to deprive ourselves in advance of the opportunity of granting the EU that power in the interests of us all, I was raising hypothetical issues. He said that I did not actually come up with concrete scenarios or specific cases. I hope that I have his attention now because I am coming up with just such a specific scenario.
Anyone with a business or economics background will always look at the demand side before they look at the supply side, on the grounds that the supply side emerges only when there is a demand for something. I put it to the Minister that one of the big problems with piracy is that, on the demand side, people are prepared to pay the money. That issue has not been addressed at all. I have to tell the House that every week ransom payments are paid amounting to millions of pounds. Sometimes they are paid through banking channels, and sometimes they are paid literally with cash dropped out of chartered aircraft on to the coast of Somalia that is then picked up by pirates. As a result, some individual or ship is released from imprisonment by the pirates who have illegally hijacked them. This happens the whole time; I repeat, it happens every week. Every year tens of millions of pounds are paid in this way; indeed, the figure may well be getting into hundreds of millions in the course of a year. I have spoken about this to underwriters in the City of London, who confess that to pay ransoms to pirates is becoming quite a normal part of their business.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I apologise if the noble Lord thought I was scowling at him. I was looking at him in some confusion. The question of how one deals with piracy off the coast of east Africa is rather different from how one might deal with piracy within the territorial waters of the European Union. Among the ships dealing with the anti-piracy patrols off the east coast of Africa are some very effective Chinese and Indian ships. The complications in co-ordinating ships from a large number of countries are considerable. How one should treat pirates whom one captures off the east coast of Africa is a large question in international law, but not under EU law since the EU does not extend to the Indian Ocean.
I was delighted to hear the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, spell out his conspiracy theory. It is useful to know which conspiracy theories underlie different views. I encourage him to compare his conspiracy theory with that of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch. They run in opposite directions. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, thinks that we are working secretly to undermine Britain’s membership of the European Union, while the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, thinks that we are not working hard enough by half to undermine it. The two of them could have a very enjoyable dinner together.
Lord Davies of Stamford
I am grateful for the noble Lord’s contribution. I said that it was how some people felt. That was the formula I used; I did not myself endorse the conspiracy theory. The implication was that the conduct of the Government was such as to make it possible for constituents to develop that conspiracy theory. In relation to his most recent remarks to me, I accept that piracy is a matter for international law. Piracy has always been against international law. There should not be a problem there. His implication was that we needed to co-ordinate with the Indians and the Chinese, which we do to some extent. We might need to co-ordinate with them more. That is true and I acknowledged it explicitly in my recent remarks. I said that in this context, as in others—I suspect the noble Lord used to teach this to his students—it is much more effective, if we want international agreement and consensus on a matter, to act as the European Union rather than as one country or as 27 different countries. That is the point I was making.
However, there is a third point that I must make in relation to the noble Lord’s comments to me, which is that I was specifically addressing the need for powers to make it an offence to make ransom payments. I think that he, and anyone with any knowledge of the world, will agree that the chances of getting 150 or 193 countries to legislate identically for anything are virtually zero; that is not going to happen. If you wish to make it a criminal offence to transfer such payments, to collect money for the purpose of paying ransoms, to provide money for the purpose of paying ransoms, to make ransom payments, and to enforce those criminal offences, you need to obtain agreement throughout the European Union as an essential starting point. That is not a matter of international law; it is very much a matter of European law. If we do not have the powers to do that at present, it is very desirable that we should develop them. However, if we needed to develop them, we would run into the issue that, if the Government succeeded in passing this Bill, Article 48 would no longer be usable in that context if Great Britain were to be included.
Lord Deben
My Lords, it might encourage your Lordships’ House to hear that I do not intend to talk about piracy; I seek to talk about the amendments that deal with the environment and climate change. These differ from earlier amendments. I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, as it seems to me that most of the areas that he covered were unique competences of the European Union, whereas we are now talking about a number of areas where there is joint competence. I say to my noble friends that if we were arguing that the British Government felt that we had sufficient powers in the European Union to do most of the things that we wanted to do, if we saw no reason to extend powers, and if the Government were going to commit themselves not to do that, I would have real sympathy with that.
If the Government went on to say that there might be occasions on which we have to go along with things that seem to be sensible extensions, I would have sympathy with that too. However, I find entirely unacceptable the concept that we cannot go along with anything unless we have a referendum. I find that unacceptable with regard to the environment, for the reason that I gave when I interrupted the noble Lord. Many of the issues about which we are talking are almost incapable of admitting a question of the kind of which a referendum admits. I do not like referenda. As the Committee knows, I am opposed to referenda on any grounds in any circumstances. I am a believer in parliamentary democracy. One of the sadnesses of this Government is that they have betrayed what seems to me to be a fundamental part of our constitution.
Referenda have always been used in partial circumstances for particular reasons. Napoleon III was the best user of referenda before General de Gaulle. This is a foreign activity much disliked by sensible people in the United Kingdom. I yield to no one in my dislike of referenda. They are always partial and always undertaken for a particular reason. The provision that we are discussing is included because the Government want to make it difficult to do anything in this area. The noble Lord, Lord Pearson, thinks that this is not so. The difficulty is that the Government speak in different ways to different people. They say to some people, “This is a wonderful step forward for those who are Eurosceptic”, and to other people, “This does not matter very much anyway because we are not going to need it”. Therefore, I find it very difficult to take this debate seriously. However, it is crucial with regard to environmental issues.
I have one or two suggestions as to why that is the case. For example, we are going to have a real issue with the transfer of electricity across the European Union. The superconductor systems, which will enable us to pass electricity very fast without losing power, will be very important in enabling us to meet our energy requirements and the requirement to cut the damage we do to the atmosphere and to mitigate climate change. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, does not believe in climate change. He is a sceptic on a wide range of subjects. It will not therefore worry him, but it worries me considerably if we cannot do something about this
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
I wanted to make a point about his example and did not want him to lose his train of thought. If the superhighway had to go through France’s territory—leaving aside the parody of the need for a referendum there, because it is a policy question, not necessarily a competence question—and the French did not wish to sign up to that because they felt that one of their strategic industries, nuclear power, would be at a loss, would it be right, in the spirit of European Union co-operation, to use qualified majority voting or some other passerelle or clause to force the French to allow their territorial sovereignty to be infringed by others? That would seem to be curiously anti-European and against the spirit of European co-operation.
Lord Deben
That would mean that we had no common trade policy. Every country could say that this decision was contrary to their national interest. The French have managed to make the sale of Orangina contrary to their national interest. What the noble Baroness suggests would destroy any possibility of the scheme. It would not touch their sovereignty. They would not have to use the electricity. All that they would have to do was not prevent someone else using the electricity. It is otherwise a curious definition of national sovereignty.
Secondly, if we do not do that, my national sovereignty is being infringed, because my climate is being changed. Unless we find ways of using non-fossil fuels, my climate will be changed. This is a question on which we have to accept that our national sovereignties are all imperilled—but I do not want to go further down that road, or someone will suggest that I am not keeping to the amendments.
There is a whole series of issues here where the Government are making it more difficult to stand up for Britain's interests within the European Union by setting this entirely unnecessary and manufactured way to enable them to say to the rest of the world, “We are not going to be pushed around”. I think that the Government are perfectly capable of not being pushed around without the Bill. I think that my noble friend is quite wrong to apply Canute to a bit of the Bill. The whole Bill is a Canute Bill. It suggests that you can in some way stop the necessity of the nations of Europe working together by setting in train a system which makes Britain uniquely unable to play its part in the European Union. It is all right saying that other people have all sorts of methods, and the rest of it, but they have been much more careful in writing their legislation, and they do not have a situation where even the simplified system is called into question, which is the way that this legislation operates.
I want to say just two more things. The first is that if ever there were a policy that needs change, it is the common fisheries policy. It is hugely important, and it is based on a European competence, but there are some things on which the European Union does not have competence. For example, it does not have competence to enter member states’ ports with European inspectors, but there is no way to have a sensible common fisheries policy without that. Who has been against that? We do not want people entering our ports. I cannot understand why, because we try to keep the law, but evidently we will not allow that. If we were to do that, we might do something about the very policy which is, for most of us, the least satisfactory of European policies. That is why, given the environment, it will be very important. Evidently, we are not going to do that unless we have a referendum asking people whether they are prepared for French inspectors to come into English ports. Of course, they will say no to that, because the question does not say what I want it to say: are we prepared for British inspectors to go into French ports? They would say yes to that. It depends what the question is. That again comes back to the danger of having referendums.
My last point is that the trouble with this bit of the Bill, unless it is amended as we suggest, is that, as the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, rightly said, it gives the opportunity for anybody who does not like the European Union, who has an obsessive belief that somehow it is the epitome of evil instead of being our most exciting and remarkable peacetime achievement, to find any change, any aspect that is altered, any suspicion or scintilla of alteration proof positive that there should have been a referendum. Therefore, instead of doing what the Government think will happen under the Bill, instead of ensuring that people feel happier about the European Union, it will give endless opportunities for the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, and others to suspect that there is something much deeper, much worse, much more wicked. Frankly, it is like the Jehovah's Witnesses. It is a perversion of the realities and the truths. Once you have caught it, you cannot see the realities and the truth except through that prism. The Bill helps that. The bit which does not allow the European Union to take proper steps to strengthen its effectiveness in mitigating the effects of climate change and pollution is particularly damaging, and it is especially damaging for the nation that leads in these matters—Britain. I want Britain to lead in these things and not to say to the rest of Europe, “Frightfully sorry, old boy, we can’t manage this because it means a referendum and we’re within two years of an election”.
Lord Judd
The noble Lord is absolutely right. That was a powerful argument, well put, and one with which I found myself completely in agreement. These amendments go to the centre of what is wrong with this lamentable piece of legislation. It is not just a question of a lack of vision; it is a matter of selling the British people short. If there is one fundamental reality in relevant politics, it is that we live in a totally interdependent world. The job of government is to help the British people to find a place within the reality of that interdependence and to work out how the interdependence can best be handled. That should be central to our education system and to the whole message of politics.
The trouble with the Bill, as we said powerfully at Second Reading, is that it does not provide any flexibility. Here I slightly differ from my noble friend Lord Liddle, who is doing a formidable job on the Bill and makes me very proud to come from the same county in England. However, it is not simply flexibility that we are talking about but leadership of the British people in meeting the realities that confront us. The trouble with the Bill—and we all know it—is that it is an effort to reassure the British people that government will protect them against the European Union. Instead of asking how we can strengthen the well-being of the British people through the part that we play in Europe, and instead of coming out of negotiations and saying, “My God, look at what we have achieved for the people of Europe and therefore for ourselves in this context”, we come out saying, “Look at what we’ve managed to hold off in looking after British interests”. That kind of argument is all tactical and totally lacks strategy. From that standpoint, it seems to me that these amendments are central. Not one issue is mentioned in them that can possibly be carried forward on behalf of the British people within the context of the nation state alone. They require international solutions.
In responding to my noble friend’s very important intervention on piracy, kidnapping and ransom, the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, seemed to suggest that these are matters of international law. Of course they are, and they are absolutely central to the future of my children and grandchildren. Of course we have to get the international and global policies right, but surely the noble Lord does not want to align himself with the argument that establishing firmly in the European Community a stepping stone towards making that wider international policy effective is somehow unnecessary. It is vital, and we have done it with, for example, arms exports. It was in the context of the whole issue of arms exports and the damage they could do that we saw the establishment of the European code on arms exports. A lot of work is still to be done on it but it is a starting point. It illustrates to the world what can be done and it enables us to move forward practically to a wider, more successful policy within the United Nations.
The issue that we must come back to is that these amendments are vital because they try to ensure that we bring home to the British people that their interests lie in strong collective action at the international level. I repeat that the trouble with the Bill is that it faces in the opposite direction. It is saying, “We will make some concessions to Europe where necessary, but we do not see our future in international co-operation and effective international instruments: we see these as something that reluctantly we have to concede from time to time—and, my God, we will insist on the opportunity always to test public opinion if we are asked to take an obviously sensible step”.
These amendments deal with the heart of the Bill. It is a sad day in British history when we have this wretched piece of legislation before us.
Lord Taverne
My Lords, the previous two speakers eloquently demonstrated the importance of these amendments. They made a passionate plea for a much more sensible and enlightened policy towards Europe. I will deal with one particular aspect: Amendment 23F and the banking crisis.
There are two aspects to the current financial crisis in Europe: sovereign debt and bank liquidity. Many continental banks are undercapitalised. They need more rigorous stress tests as a basis for recapitalisation. National regulation and supervision have failed. We need a special EU-wide resolution regime. We need new, more effective European regulation. If we have that, it will of course give new powers to Brussels and that, as I understand it, would trigger a referendum. The question arises: what sort of question would be posed in a referendum dealing with bank regulation?
Leaving that aside, it will mean that in the course of negotiations taking place in Europe, when negotiators are being very careful and thinking that they can achieve something without triggering a referendum in Denmark or Ireland, or an adverse ruling of the German constitutional court, our negotiators will have to have regard to the fact that there will have to be a referendum. They will be inhibited and looking over their shoulders: they will be negotiating with their hands behind their back. Since this will be an obstacle to reaching a very important area of agreement, the likelihood is that we will be bypassed.
Already we are being bypassed in many important respects. While John Major wanted to be outside the eurozone in a multipolar Europe, it seems that Mr Cameron has more or less accepted that there will be a small but very powerful unit in Europe. We will find that being in the outside lane of a much less congenial Europe is not a particularly effective experience for very important aspects of our economy. I have heard Treasury officials saying that we are now in the same position as Latvia, asking what agreements are being reached in rooms where the important people are meeting.
A story was told at a conference I went to about an occasion when Gordon Brown insisted on being present with eurozone Ministers. They said that they would meet him, but the press outside were speculating on how long he would last: would he be out in five minutes? In fact, that was precisely what happened: after hearing him for five minutes, they thanked him, said that they must now have their private meeting and asked him to leave. He could not face the press after five minutes, so he stayed in the lavatory for half an hour.
It is not very dignified to be outside the corridors of power. This, however, will be much worse. Obviously there were problems about joining the eurozone, but the regulation of banks will affect the City profoundly, and it will be another case where we are likely to be bypassed.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, I will address Amendments 23C, 23D and 23E, as did the noble Lord, Lord Deben, who gave us a brilliant illustration of why flexibility in this area is not only desirable but necessary.
I have, off and on, had quite a few dealings with the issue of energy in the European Union, and I have to say that we have got it comprehensively wrong. In the 1970s we fought desperately—of course, Mr Tony Benn was the Minister at the time—to avoid the European Union having any responsibility in this field whatever in case it stole our oil, which it was never going to be able to do because European law is perfectly clear on that point, and so we prevented any policy emerging then. Then, when the Single European Act was passed, we allowed—I agree that by then we were not favouring it—energy to be kept out of the single market at that stage because of the objections of the French and the Germans, and that was a disastrous mistake. Now, when we have discovered that we are not one of the three major oil and gas producers in the world, we have discovered, surprisingly, that we could do with a common energy policy, but it is quite difficult to get; and, as the noble Lord, Lord Deben, has said, it is in an area of shared competence. So it may very well be that, sometime in the not too distant future, we will want to support some changes that will give more powers to Brussels in the area of energy security, competition, interconnectors and all these things; yet here we are subjecting all that to a referendum requirement under which the no campaign would no doubt say yet again, “This is the European Union coming to take all our North Sea oil”, and so on. The result may very well be negative because that campaign would be very emotive. Heaven knows what the Scots would think about it—quite a lot, I should think.
I do really feel that this illustrates the case for flexibility—and the same is true on climate change. It is rather clear that the European Union will struggle under its current institutional arrangements to find a way forward through the next 30, 40 or 50 years on climate change. Things are going to be very different. Crises are going to emerge and Europe is going to have to find a response to them. Some of those responses may involve new powers for the Union as a whole. And yet again, this will be made extraordinarily difficult by the provisions of the Bill.
I am not saying that these particular amendments are the last words in wisdom on this particular issue, but I do really think that the Government ought to be taking this a bit more seriously. We have not had a single serious response from the Government since we began this Committee stage on any point that has been raised. I am waiting now for the response to this debate to have, for the first time, a serious response to the substance, because we have not had it so far. Those are issues of major importance. I think that if the Government were to go away and reflect on this now, they would see the wisdom, at the very least, of truncating the list of issues on which there need to be referendums.
Lord Empey
I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. A lot has been talked this evening about energy. Maybe I am missing something, but any of the energy sources that we will need for our future security will come from outside the European Union. In other words, they will be merely transmitted through the European Union, and that will largely be down to the authorities in each country, including planners, as to whether they will allow these things to pass through.
I was involved in a gas pipeline that transmitted from the United Kingdom to the Irish Republic and from the different parts of the United Kingdom to the Irish Republic directly. The European Union contributed financially towards it, because it could be done under a whole range of headings—infrastructure, the cohesion fund, economic development, climate change issues, carbon reduction. There are many mechanisms already in existence. I may be wrong on this, but I feel that the energy example is not necessarily the most relevant.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
I am afraid to say that I believe that the noble Lord is wrong on this. He has used a particular example of which he has very great experience. It is extremely interesting for the House to hear that example, but it is not very typical. It does not deal at all with the issue, for example, of whether it might be in the interests of the European Union in the not distant future to give a negotiating mandate to a body—whether it is the Commission or the presidency or whatever it is—to negotiate for energy supplies from outside the European Union, particularly gas, and to negotiate as a single unit. That would require new powers. It is as simple as that, and is, I am afraid to say, nothing whatever to do with building a pipeline between Ireland and Northern Ireland, interesting and important though that was.
I think there is serious matter in the energy field, the climate change field and the pollution field to reflect on here and a need for greater flexibility. I plead with the Government that we do not have the preprandial/postprandial schizophrenia that we have had in recent Committee stages in which in one session we are told that we need not worry about this enormous number of referendums because none of them will ever take place and we will stop anything happening in Brussels that will cause them to take place and then immediately afterwards we are told that we need not worry because the European Union does not work that way, and there will be a big package and we will all be able to find some nice sugar-plums in it for ourselves. I thought that was where we came in and decided that that was nothing that we wished to encourage in future. I think the Government need to make up their mind whether they are trying to lock the door and throw the key away, which is what this Bill does, and the consequences of that are pretty damaging for this country, or whether they are trying to propel the European Union towards another big institutional package, which I do not believe to be in the interests of this country. I would like to hear a response on Amendments 23C, 23D and 23E.
Lord Willoughby de Broke
My Lords, on the issue of climate change, the subject of the amendment that we are supposed to be talking about, several hours ago the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, said that Amendment 21 was the most useless, superfluous amendment that he had come across during the hours of Committee stage. I believe that Amendment 23C actually takes the palm as the most useless and redundant amendment we have had. The idea that the European Union is effective in climate change is frankly laughable. Let me remind your Lordships that our policy on emissions is guided entirely by the EU and we have to have 20 per cent of our energy from renewables by 2020. Of course, there is not the remotest chance of achieving that, and in the past couple of years, that aspiration—that dream—has begun to collide with reality.
Just to give your Lordships a little information on that, I shall repeat what was said in two sets of figures from two separate reports over the degree of delusion that surrounds the wish of our Government in Brussels and their subsidiary here in Westminster that the centrepiece of our energy policy should be to build ever more windmills. The report that drew most attention was from a Scottish environmental charity that focused on the fact that last year, despite our building ever more wind farms, the lack of wind meant that they operated on average at only 21 per cent of capacity, and that was during the period of highest demand. Several times when demand was at its highest the contribution of wind to our electricity supply was virtually zero.
I do not know why, but less attention was given to an interesting report put out by our Department of Energy and Climate Change showing that the 3,168 turbines that we have built at a cost of billions of pounds contributed on average less than the output of one large coal-fired power station. From the DECC figure, it is possible to work out that for this derisory contribution we paid through our electricity bills a subsidy of nearly £1.2 billion on top of the price of electricity itself. In return for getting 3 per cent, roughly, of our energy, nearly 7 per cent of our bills are paid in subsidies for these completely useless wind farms, and that will go up as years go on because we have committed to this 20 per cent from renewables by 2020. That report dealt with last year.
Lord Deben
Might the noble Lord not suggest that there could be a better question: do the people of Britain want to have their climate changed and their health impaired by the continuation of extremely dirty power stations, which happily we are going to close down?
Lord Willoughby de Broke
The noble Lord says, “happily we are going to close down”. I hope that he has got a generator in his house so that he can watch his television and read his books because with wind power that simply will not happen. Nuclear of course is a different matter, but let us not get into that debate right now.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
I merely want to congratulate the noble Lord on having raised the issue of gas storage, which is a subject close to my heart. I ask him to recognise that the best way to improve the level of gas storage in Europe would be to impose a minimum gas storage obligation through the European Union.
Lord Willoughby de Broke
Surely it could be up to the nation member states to impose their own minimum gas storage obligation. Why do we have to do it through the European Union? It is perfectly ridiculous. This unhealthy EU obsession, which is what it is—I am very sorry that the previous Government and this Government seem to have signed up to it—of using wind power to keep our lights on is one of the most damaging fantasies of our time. I oppose the amendment and I hope that it will be dealt with accordingly.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick
My Lords, I want to make one simple and brief point, but before I do that perhaps I may respond partly to what the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, said because I was a little puzzled by it. He is a former Treasury Minister and chairman of a think tank in the City. He was referring to the two aspects of the banking system in crisis being capital and liquidity, with which I totally agree. But he was, I think, arguing that perhaps we need more European attention to capital. That was quite a surprising thing to suggest because, as he will remember, not long before the Irish banking crisis struck and the Irish banks were revealed as hopelessly undercapitalised, we had stress tests carried out on the European banks—a separate exercise in the European Union and in Britain. The European Union banking tests revealed that no bank had a problem with capital other than one bank in Germany. That was shortly before the crisis was fully revealed in all its horror in Ireland.
I agree with the noble Lord that there is a separate aspect of liquidity which the European Central Bank has, in a skilful and constructive way, provided to the European banking system. Equally, the Bank of England has also exercised its national function well. He did not make the case for further European competence or the transfer of power or competence from this country to Europe by merit of that alone.
The noble Lord went on to make the familiar point about the eurozone and whether we were marginalised by not being in it. It is of course true that eurozone Ministers may make certain decisions affecting themselves in which we do not participate. We do not participate in meetings of the Federal Reserve Bank, although its decisions affect us. However, anything that eurozone Ministers decide to do that is governed by the rules of the single market or competition law continues to be governed by the rules of the single market and competition policy. He was careful to say that issues would arise if we were proposing to join the euro but the implication of his argument was that in order to gain influence we should join the euro, which I am sure he does not really subscribe to. Very few people will own up to arguing that we should join the euro today.
Lord Taverne
I was not arguing that we should join the euro today. On the earlier question, I defer to my noble friend’s greater experience in these financial fields. However, a large number of economists have taken the view that what is needed at the moment are much more effective stress tests for European banks on a euro-wide basis. For example, I dare say my noble friend has read economist Willem Buiter’s considerable contribution to Citigroup’s paper on the subject. He is not alone in this because a large number of economists are concerned that only through a much more rigorous euro-wide stress test system will the banking liquidity part of the problem be adequately resolved.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick
I think the stress tests refer to capital rather than liquidity, which is a slightly shorter-term issue. I agree with the noble Lord and Willem Buiter that we need proper stress tests. However, the previous stress tests that were applied within the EU were revealed in all their nakedness as thoroughly inadequate.
As the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, said, we should remember that the regulations that govern these issues are not only European but worldwide. The BIS has a crucial role—in fact the lead role—in determining the capital ratios of banks. I do not think that the argument about the failure of the banking systems is an argument per se for why the UK, which is outside the eurozone, ought to contemplate further integration in this field than has already been provided for. This area has to be addressed internationally and through many agencies.
The main point that I want to make about the debate is this. We have had some amazingly excellent speeches but there is confusion, or insufficient distinction, in these debates between the European Union acting to legislate or make a policy decision and it altering its own constitution—if I can use the word “constitution”; I know people who might object to that—or its own rules. People have made eloquent speeches about human trafficking, piracy and the environment, but not all the speeches have distinguished between the EU’s ability to act and to have a policy and its need for more powers.
The noble Baroness, who made a tremendously moving speech about human trafficking, did not actually demonstrate that more powers were needed. More agreement might be needed, and might be achievable within existing powers, but she did not demonstrate that more powers were needed. Equally, the noble Lord, Lord Davies, spoke about piracy but did not demonstrate that we could not have an EU policy on piracy within the existing competencies and powers of the EU. I appeal to the Minister to make that distinction when he addresses all these areas.
Where there are political and human problems—piracy, the environment, energy, human trafficking and all the other issues listed in the amendments—can the Minister distinguish between the EU’s ability to act, to legislate under its own rules and, quite separately, the need to change its own constitution? The people speaking for the amendments ought to have argued for a change in the European Union’s rules. With great respect to all those who spoke so movingly on the issues that mattered to them, not all of them made the case for a change in the rules of the EU. That seems to be the crucial point in this group of amendments.
Lord Grenfell
I hesitate to intervene at this late hour but what the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, has just said provokes me to do so. He has, maybe inadvertently, hit the nail on the head. This Bill is about trying to prevent the European Union acquiring more powers in ways that the Government feel would be wrong. The noble Lord spoke about the difference between powers and agreement. In fact, the effect of the Bill is to prevent and make far more difficult the reaching of agreements within the European Union. That is what it is all about. It is not about power but the ability of the European Union to reach more and better agreements.
We have had an interesting debate that has covered an enormous number of topics. We have talked about the Monetary Policy Committee, the environment, piracy, human trafficking—all very interesting for those of us who respect the views of those who know what they are talking about. However, I am not sure that the coalition Government and those on this Front Bench are at all interested in this debate. They have already made up their minds; the integrity of Clause 4(4) has to be defended at all costs. They are not prepared to give way on any of this and do not want any additions to the clause. One wonders what this debate is all about.
I do not want to belittle the powers of this House to be able to persuade Governments to change their minds, but on this particular issue I am a pessimist. We are not going to be able to do so because if these excellent amendments are accepted, one of the central pillars of the whole Bill collapses. When that pillar collapses, the whole edifice begins to crumble, so I am sure the Government are going to stick firm on this. It will be extremely hard for us to persuade them to accept any of these amendments. That depresses me greatly because these amendments are vital. I suggest that we make every effort to persuade the Government, but I am a pessimist on this. The case has been well made by my noble friends Lord Triesman and Lord Liddle to get these amendments through, but if the Government are not prepared to accept them this bad Bill becomes even worse.
Baroness Brinton
My Lords, I absolutely agree that the policy areas set out in these amendments are important for debate. We had an extremely interesting debate earlier and it is absolutely key as well that the EU continues to focus on these issues. However, I am really struggling to identify the areas within the existing treaties where the EU is not able to act. I would be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, if he could help by giving some specific examples. On those covering climate change, for example, which the noble Lord, Lord Deben, spoke eloquently about earlier, I understood that Article 191 of TFEU allows the EU to act in,
“preserving, protecting and improving the quality of the environment”,
so where is it not covered that requires this amendment?
Lord Deben
Very simply, the EU does not have powers to insist that we improve the electricity transfer between countries, yet that will be an essential part of our future energy needs.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, Article 170 says:
“To help achieve the objectives referred to in Articles 26 and 174”,
et cetera,
“the Union shall contribute to the establishment and development of trans-European networks in the areas of transport, telecommunications and energy infrastructures”.
That seems to me very much to give the competences needed.
Baroness Brinton
I am grateful for that intervention from my noble friend Lord Wallace, which was much more informed than I could possibly have given.
Lord Deben
It was a perfectly right intervention but that does not actually give powers to compel. It says that the countries shall do it but there is no mechanism at the moment to insist that they do it. That is the issue.
Baroness Brinton
My Lords, I fundamentally disagree with that point. The key point here, which we have come back to day after day on this Bill, is that this is about the process not the policy. The process has been absolutely clear and I still wait to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, on where these are not covered by existing treaties.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Deben, was good enough to mention me in his few remarks and to accuse me of what I think was the impossible and most undesirable dream of the United Kingdom being altogether free of the European Union in all these matters. He is of course correct. However, he then mentioned the common fisheries policy as though that has to be solved by the European Union and as though the EU will not solve the acknowledged disaster which the policy is, environmentally and in every other way, if it is prevented from doing so. Surely, from our point of view, as I have mentioned before, the answer is terribly simple. We simply leave the European common fisheries policy and take back our international waters. Seventy five per cent of the fish which swim in European waters all the year round swim in waters that used to belong entirely to the United Kingdom before we made the mistake of joining the European Union. We then manage our own waters, re-establish our fish stocks and let out any surplus to foreigners.
On energy, the noble Lord again believes that the European Union is essential to solve our energy problems but, surely—
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
I am afraid that the noble Lord is yet again misleading the House. The waters did not belong to Britain before we joined the European Union. We had 12-mile limits in those days and the areas beyond those limits were high seas. The decision to go out to 250 miles was taken by the European Union collectively when we were a member.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
Yes, but we should not have gone along with that decision because we should not have been in the policy in the first place. I therefore insist that most of the fish which swim now in European waters and are fished by European boats used to belong to us and they could and should belong to us again. I do not wish to detain the House—
Lord Deben
The noble Lord really must not say that. It is not true. Most of our fishing grounds have always been shared with our neighbours—the French, the Belgians and the Germans—and we have always had to come to terms with them. All that the European common fisheries policy does is to have a sensible mechanism. It is not that the policy being common is wrong but that the policy is wrong. You have to have a common policy; otherwise you can only make these decisions with the marlinspike. It is just not true that we had 75 per cent of it before.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
The noble Lord and those of his view have been saying this now for 30 years. It has not happened and it is not going to happen. The solution for this country is to leave the common fisheries policy and take back our waters to the median line and whatever we had before in territorial waters into our own control. Then, when our own fishing industry, which has been decimated by the common fisheries policy, has been rebuilt, we can share any surplus and lease it out to people who want to buy it.
Lord Davies of Stamford
I do not know in which amendment the common fisheries policy arises, but I have to tell the noble Lord that if he is interested in that policy, he will rapidly find that the only explanation consistent with the facts is that the common fisheries policy suffered from an excess of member state sovereignty and an insufficiency of federalism. At every stage the European Commission, being the regulatory agency, has proposed quotas that, if they had been accepted, would have preserved the stocks. It is the member states pursuing their own individual interests that have always resisted those proposals on the part of the European Commission. As a result, the quotas have never been sufficiently tight and all these waters have been overfished. Under all circumstances, whether we had our own fisheries policy or not, it would be necessary for us to have regulation, quotas and some effective enforcement mechanism. If we disbanded the European Union, the next day we would need to set up a new common fisheries policy by agreement with a set of quotas and a common enforcement policy.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, when we leave the European Union, we will not do as the noble Lord, Lord Davies, suggests. We will take back those waters that were our waters, take back those fish that were our fish and re-establish our national fishing industry. That is what we will do. As the noble Lord has mentioned, this was not actually in the amendments but as the noble Lord, Lord Deben, mentioned it in connection with me, I thought that I would just touch on it in closing.
The noble Lord assumes, again, that some form of European common energy policy is in any way necessary for this country. We simply rebuild our own energy supplies. We do not let the European Union close down our coal-fired stations, as my noble friend Lord Willoughby de Broke has mentioned, but build new ones. We might even consider incineration of landfill. We certainly consider nuclear power. We therefore supply our own energy. If we then wish to go on buying Russian gas through France, which is what we have to do at the moment, then we may be able to, but I entirely agree with my noble friend that this pursuit of wind power is madness of a dimension that only the political class could be guilty of. I think that that covers everything that I had to say to the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and I shall sit down.
Lord Howell of Guildford
Perhaps your Lordships would welcome it if we began to come to the end of this enormous debate. I agree with my noble friend Lord Lamont that the effect of this debate has been to clarify our differences, particularly the concerns of noble Lords opposite, about the Bill, and the worries that lie at the centre of their anxieties.
I do not want to parody what the noble Lords, Lord Liddle and Lord Triesman, have said again and again. They wish for more flexibility, and by “flexibility” they mean the readiness to agree to or even initiate treaty changes. They further argue that in some of its provisions—notably Article 48(6), but in others as well—the Lisbon treaty provided this flexibility, which somehow the Bill is reversing and putting back in the box. I think that that is a fair summary of where they stand. I question straight away whether they have got the Lisbon treaty quite right. We know that using the passerelle provisions requires a treaty change, and in a life experiment, not a laboratory experiment, we have seen how that is conducted. It is conducted through some very elaborate negotiations on an urgent issue that will not be solved by any immediate policies to hand—namely, the stability of the European financial and monetary system—and, to meet that, a treaty change is winding its way through the system and will take one year and three-quarters to come to fruition and be agreed. So that structure, that passerelle arrangement—which, incidentally, was as noble Lords know very well, an agonising compromise between several other suggestions at the Lisbon treaty negotiations—is certainly not a quick solution, a flexibility device, an emergency provision, which somehow the Bill is negativing. That is not the pattern.
Then we come to the broader question of whether treaty changes generally are synonymous with flexibility. I have considerable difficulty with the line taken by the Opposition. Not only does it take 18 months to two years to work up and elaborate treaty changes and get them agreed between the 27 members, which all have their own procedures for handling these matters, going through their own legislatures and constitutional arrangements and, in many cases their own referenda arrangements as well, but this seems to be a very poor response, a very poor kind of flexibility and a very poor pattern of responding to emergency and difficult issues.
As I understand it, the implication of the amendments, which extend the exemptions to a very wide range of issues, is that it would be nice to be ready to have treaty changes in an enormous list of things. We dealt with banking and financial regulation in the previous group of amendments, and I would be testing the patience of the Committee if I went through that again. However, these amendments deal with climate change, pollution, energy security, migration, cross-border crime, neighbourhood policy, maritime law, piracy and human trafficking, about which my noble friend Lady Williams spoke with such precision, knowledge and telling appeal. In all those areas, as I understand it, the amendments would like to see treaty change. I wonder whether the Opposition realise quite what they are asking for; it seems extremely doubtful that treaty change is the way to solve crises or problems in any of those areas. The amendments appear to have been drafted on the assumption that the Bill is trying to impair the UK’s role and participation in all these areas. They take no account of the fact—and it is a fact—that the existing treaties which extend enormous areas of competence to the EU already afford the European Union ample scope—I shall show in detail why this is so—to legislate in all the specific areas referred to in all the amendments.
If I were to go through that vast list now, we would be here till well after midnight and probably the early hours of the morning, so I cannot do justice to every aspect. But let me try to show how, in many of these areas, the competences are there. The need to plunge into this complicated area of treaty change is minimal; the opportunities for creating a highly effective European posture and policy are available within the existing competences and the existing absolute competence in particular is available to the EU in trade questions. Let me explain some of the points where this is so.
Perhaps I should begin with referenda generally and the concern that a multiple stream of referenda lies ahead if the Bill gets on to the statute book. That, I think we have established, is nonsense. Far ahead, a great new treaty could touch on a number of the issues we are looking at tonight. But the idea of a stream of referenda, which I know noble Lords in many cases dislike intensely, is unrealistic. In two highly eloquent pieces of oratory in two debates, my noble friend Lord Deben has let us know that he does not like referenda at all. That is my impression from listening to his words. He is perfectly entitled not to like referenda at all. However, he must face it: they increasingly creep into modern government, particularly in this internet age when 2 billion people, out of 6 billion on this planet, are on the web every morning. This obviously empowers people and leads to more consultation of public opinion than ever before in many democracies. It goes with parliamentary representative government; it does not undermine it, provided it is handled in a sensible way.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but no one, as far as I know, has tabled an amendment to Clause 2. It states that if there is a major new constitutional package there will have to be a referendum. No one has argued about that—not one person. What we are all arguing about is whether you need this cascade of Clauses 3, 4, 5 and 6 that block off the non-intergovernmental conference treaty big-package route. Honestly, I ask the noble Lord not to answer the wrong question. All the amendments relate to this cascade of referendums for matters that are dealt with within the Lisbon treaty.
Lord Howell of Guildford
The noble Lord, who is very skilled in these matters, knows that he is putting the question upside down. It is dangerous to halt a cascade, because you may have to divert it, and the cascade that the Bill is designed to halt is the cascade of small competence and power transfers that have been going on over the years in many areas and have caused a lot of people to fear that competence creep—I am sorry to repeat that unfortunate term—and power creep are continuing all the time, allegedly under parliamentary control, but somehow without proper public discussion, and certainly without the consent of the people.
The referendum-lock device is precisely to ensure that when the big transfers of competence and power come, they are in a clear package. The noble Lord said that that was the wrong thing to talk about, but that is the way that it will happen, like the Lisbon treaty, and the country will be invited, because of the many items that will involve competence transfer, to have a referendum on them. That is precisely my point. There will be no cascade because, if the Bill works effectively, which I think it will, the great changes needed in the 2020s and 2030s in the European Union, as it adjusts to new conditions, will have to be treated in a substantial treaty that must and will automatically trigger a referendum. That is entirely right and it will offend only those who, like my noble friend Lord Deben, do not like referenda at all. However, for most people, including 84 per cent of the country, or their children, that will be the right way to proceed. It should ensure that some degree of trust, reconnection and support for the great European cause is resurrected. At present that support is fading away very fast. It is draining away in Finland, Hungary, to some extent in Poland and in many other countries. I am not sure that even in Germany these matters carry the popularity and support needed for the kind of reforms we want to see in Europe.
This is a very serious matter. I do not say that this Bill alone will do the job of reconnection—of course it will not. We need leadership, articulation and an understanding that giving more and more powers to the centre is an outdated 20th century idea and that the more you accumulate powers at the centre, the more you get public disaffection and remoteness. That must be understood. It must be understood that in this networked age, you do not need centralisation to carry out effective powers. Once that is understood, we will begin to get shapes in the European Union that relate to and connect with the people, as the Laeken declaration pleaded for almost a decade ago. That is why I believe that these exemptions will increase mistrust and take Europe back, rather than forward to the 21st century adjustment needed in the information age, and why I therefore plead with the noble Lord and his colleagues to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Liddle
My Lords, I fear that in trying to be helpful to the Government in helping the business in Committee to go forward more quickly, we have ended up with a long omnibus debate and are sitting late. I shall be very brief.
In his reply, the Minister somewhat distorted what the Opposition are trying to achieve. We are not arguing for vast new treaties; that is a straw man. We are not arguing for the massive centralisation of powers in Brussels; that is a straw man. We are arguing that there are issues that we as a nation state cannot tackle effectively on our own. There are issues such as energy and climate change, our dealings with north Africa and the financial crisis in the banks, which are cross-border in nature. There are issues that have to be tackled at EU level which the nation state can no longer tackle, and we must ensure that there are the necessary competencies and powers at that level to act effectively. Otherwise, we will let our people down. That is not an argument for centralisation or for sweeping new treaties, but it is an argument for flexibility in cases where we discover—because we do not have perfect foresight and neither do the drafters of treaties—that those powers are lacking.
I argue that in the contributions that we have heard from all sides of the House tonight, we have had examples of where, not in 10 years’ time but possibly in two years’ time or less, we may need changes. There are issues such as human trafficking; energy, where in order to deal with networks and negotiations with third parties we may need to establish an exclusive competence at EU level; north Africa, where for a group of new democratic countries we may have to adopt an entirely new type of relationship; and for the financial crisis in the banks, where we may need a cross-border resolution mechanism.
The Government should be open to the Article 48(6) simplified revision of the treaty of the type that the euro area has had to agree to to establish the stability mechanism, rather than closing the door. That is the test of an effective European policy; “Are you prepared to do the things that are necessary to make Europe effective where it needs to be effective?”. The truth is that this Government do not want to do that. Instead, they want to apply this referendum lock, which will not enable Europe to be effective in all circumstances, and they are going to throw away the key.
Our position is a pragmatic one. It is not saying that these things are inevitable; it is saying that we have to be open to them happening. As part of the structure of the Bill, the Government are saying that there are certain grounds for exempting measures from the need for a referendum. We have tried to illustrate what those grounds might be and, on some of the other flexibilities in the treaty, we have tried to demonstrate where the significance test might be widened from the very narrow circumstances in which it is currently allowable.
If the Government want to improve the Bill, I urge them to come back to this House by Report with a set of amendments that give us cause for hope that Britain can play a leading role in the European Union rather than always having to say to colleagues, “No, we can’t possibly agree to that because we’re not allowed to have a referendum”. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.