Great British Energy Bill
Thursday 5th September 2024
(1 month, 3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Great British Energy Bill 2024-26 Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
16:59 - The House having divided: - Ayes: 94 / Noes: 348 - Question accordingly negatived.
17:15 - The House divided: - Ayes: 348 / Noes: 95 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Madam Deputy Speaker
The reasoned amendment in the name of Claire Coutinho has been selected.
The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Ed Miliband)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
May I congratulate you on your elevation to your new role, Madam Deputy Speaker?
At the general election, the British people voted for change, and they voted for our party’s promise of the first new national, publicly owned energy generation company in our country for more than 75 years: Great British Energy. Today, with this Bill, we deliver. British public ownership is back at the heart of our energy system. To every right hon. and hon. Member behind me, I say that it is thanks to each and every one of their victories in their constituencies that today we can start to create a lasting legacy for the country, which breaks from 14 years of failure—14 years of leaving Britain exposed to fossil fuel markets, which led directly to the worst cost of living crisis and energy bills crisis in generations.
Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
Will the Secretary of State give way?
Ed Miliband
Not at the moment. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman needs to calm down a little bit; I know he gets very angry.
We have had 14 years of blind faith in free markets and a refusal to have an industrial policy, which offshored clean energy jobs, and 14 years of a Government who were perfectly happy with state ownership of our energy system, but with one crucial overriding condition: that it would be state ownership by any country except Britain. That is the reality of what we inherited.
We already have widespread state ownership of Britain’s energy assets by other countries—Denmark, Sweden, Norway and France—through their state-owned companies. Indeed, the city of Munich owns more of our offshore wind capacity than the British Government. Following the auction results I announced on Tuesday, the largest two offshore wind projects to win a contract will be built by Ørsted, a Danish state-owned company. I strongly welcome its investment, but the question before the House today—the question at the heart of this Bill—is simple: do we think there should be a British equivalent of state-owned energy generation companies such as Ørsted, Vattenfall, Statkraft and EDF investing in our infrastructure?
We have a simple proposition: if it is right for the Danes, the French, the Norwegians and the Swedes to own British energy assets, it is right for the British people to do so as well. That is why we fought the election on the crucial principle that the British people should have a right to own and benefit from our natural resources. To every Member of the House who is considering their vote on this Bill this afternoon, I urge them to vote for that principle. To those thinking about voting against the Bill, I ask them how they will defend to their constituents the idea that other countries should own our national energy infrastructure, but Britain should not.
Graham Stuart
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. He is normally a fair man, but what he did not mention was the risible state of renewable energy when we took power in 2010. It accounted for less than 7% of electricity, and we increased the figure to nearly 50%. We are a country that has led the world in this area. It was the Conservatives who transformed our energy system to remove coal from the system. I am sure I am just setting up the Secretary of State, which I am happy to do, but what will state ownership do? Our system is arguably one of the most effective in the whole world at delivering green capacity, and has been the most successful in cutting emissions. What will state ownership do, other than simply put the state and its complicated mechanisms into programmes that need to be speeded up, not slowed down?
Ed Miliband
The right hon. Gentleman surprises me; he is a brilliant set-up man, and he is welcome any time. I will now explain to him what state ownership will do. Here is why it is the right idea for our time. It is the right idea for energy security, because Great British Energy will invest in home-grown, clean energy that we control, and speed up its delivery. It is the right idea for jobs—this is the learning from all those other countries I mentioned—because Great British Energy will partner with the private sector to create jobs and make sure that we build the supply chains and jobs that the British people deserve.
It is the right idea for creating wealth for Britain. This is what I do not understand about the Conservative party, because state-owned companies from other countries are not investing in these assets as a charitable endeavour; they are doing so to generate wealth for their countries—wealth that flows back to their taxpayers. State ownership is the right idea for creating wealth for Britain, because Great British Energy, through its investments, will help generate return for the taxpayer. To answer the right hon. Gentleman directly, it is right for energy security, it is right for jobs, and it is right for creating wealth for our country.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
I will not support this Bill tonight. The Secretary of State claims that it will put the British people in ownership of the renewable electricity supply market, but that market is estimated is £50 billion a year. He is proposing to invest £1.6 billion a year. Can he not see the difference that £1.6 billion will make to the overall investment? The infrastructure will still not be owned by the British people.
Ed Miliband
The right hon. Gentleman and I have a long history on these issues, which makes me rather old. Indeed, we used to spar about them 15 years ago. He is wrong about £1.6 billion; it is £8.3 billion of investment over the Parliament—a significant sum. Great British Energy will not become EDF overnight—of course not —but the point is that this Government believe in creating a lasting, long-term legacy for Britain, which is what GB Energy will do.
Several hon. Members rose—
Ed Miliband
I am going to make some more progress.
Let me go through what Great British Energy will do. First, it will invest in and own clean energy projects, particularly leading-edge technologies such as floating offshore wind, by working with the private sector and taking stakes in the projects it supports. The truth is that we need to accelerate the deployment of wind, solar, tidal, hydrogen, carbon capture and nuclear, and we need to face the reality that frontier technologies carry risk. That is why there is a particular role for the Government in helping to de-risk projects by investing in them in partnership with the private sector, and in doing so capturing value for Britain.
GB Energy will invest across a range of clean energy technologies, using its £8.3 billion capitalisation. The chair has been appointed by the Government, but the company will be able to move at pace with operational independence. I am delighted that Jürgen Maier, who has a great record of achievement and is a champion of UK manufacturing and good jobs, has been appointed as start-up chair.
Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab)
I completely agree with the basis of my right hon. Friend’s argument for ending the offshoring of jobs, energy assets and employment opportunities. Almost all solar panels are currently sourced from China. Power Roll, a company in my constituency, has developed a lightweight, flexible and cost-effective solar module and is eager to establish its first gigafactory. Does he agree that, to secure our energy future, Great British Energy should be supporting and investing in innovative start-ups such as Power Roll in east Durham?
Ed Miliband
My hon. Friend is a brilliant champion of his constituency and these issues, and he is absolutely right that part of the challenge we face is to expand our supply chains in Britain. I am very interested in the example he gives.
Matt Rodda (Reading Central) (Lab)
The Secretary of State talks eloquently and powerfully about the physical investment coming from this new measure. Will he elaborate on some of the benefits to our workforce, particularly the training and development opportunities for younger people through a wider range of apprenticeships, and the amazing multiplier effect that will have for our economy?
Ed Miliband
My hon. Friend anticipates my point about how we build the supply chains, and about the lessons we have learned from what state-owned companies in other countries have done to help catalyse a supply chain of jobs and to work with the private sector.
Ed Miliband
I will give way one more time before making some more progress.
Mr Perkins
I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend. We heard the right hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Graham Stuart) suggest a few moments ago that things were going wonderfully under the Conservative Government, but does my right hon. Friend agree that the Climate Change Committee warned a few weeks ago that only a third of the emissions reductions that we need to achieve the 2030 target are currently backed by a credible plan? Is the reality not that we need a step change? Thank God we have a Labour Government to deliver it.
Ed Miliband
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and it is part of what this Government have done. In less than two months, we have overturned the onshore wind ban, consented large amounts of solar power and, on Tuesday, had the most successful renewables auction in British history.
Ed Miliband
I will not give way to the right hon. Gentleman again. We have heard quite enough from him.
Secondly—I know this is a concern of the Liberal Democrats and of other Members on both sides of the House—Great British Energy will deliver our local power plan, working with local authorities, combined authorities and communities to deliver the biggest expansion of support for community-owned energy in history.
Clean energy is not just about large-scale infrastructure. If we look around the world, so many countries have a lot to teach us. In Denmark, around half of wind capacity is citizen-owned; and in Germany, almost half of solar capacity is citizen-owned. Our local power plan will learn from other countries.
Generating clean power, and embracing it as a way to generate a return for local people, to help tackle fuel poverty, to unleash the dynamism and resources of local communities and to win the consent of local people, thousands of projects across Britain are tapping into that energy and enthusiasm.
Ed Miliband
I will make a bit more progress.
I had the chance to visit the Lawrence Weston turbine in Bristol, which Members may know about. It is England’s tallest onshore wind turbine, and it is 100% owned by the local community, powering at least 3,000 local homes and reinvesting revenues into local projects.
Ed Miliband
I have caught the eye of an infrequent contributor to this House, so I will give way.
Jim Shannon
I thank the Secretary of State for what he is putting forward. It seems logical for the UK to manufacture this process, rather than others doing it for us. The question for my constituents, I say respectfully to the Secretary of State, is, what will the price of energy be at the end? A LucidTalk poll for National Energy Action evaluated the impact of rising energy prices on households in Northern Ireland. It found that 41% of households were spending more than 10% of their income on their home energy costs. How can we make sure that my constituents, and indeed all our constituents, can have energy they can pay for?
Ed Miliband
The hon. Member is absolutely right. This is a massive concern for all our constituents, and Great British Energy is a crucial tool to bring down prices for our constituents. The truth is that every Member in this House has to make a judgment on this. Do they believe that business as usual, staying on fossil fuels, will give us the energy security we need? We discussed this in the House on Tuesday. The truth is that we had the worst cost of living crisis in generations because of our exposure to fossil fuels. We are seeing prices rise again on 1 October, not because of Government decisions but because of our dependence on international gas markets. The argument for clean energy 15 years ago was a climate argument; it is now as much an energy security argument as a climate argument.
Several hon. Members rose—
Ed Miliband
I am going to make a bit more progress.
Thirdly, Great British Energy will work with industry to develop supply chains across the UK to boost energy independence and create good jobs. The reality is that the last Government spectacularly underdelivered on the promise of creating jobs in clean energy. It is true that British waters are home to one of the largest floating offshore wind farms in the world: Kincardine, just 15 km off the coast of Aberdeen—[Interruption.] The right hon. Member for East Surrey (Claire Coutinho) nods, but where was it made? Its foundations were made in Spain and its turbines were installed in the Netherlands, and it was then simply towed into British waters. How can that be right?
This Government are not neutral about where things are made. We want the future made in Britain. Clean energy is the economic and industrial opportunity of the 21st century, and the truth is that other countries are seizing this opportunity. Britain is being left behind. The facts are extraordinary: Germany has almost twice as many renewable jobs per capita as Britain; Sweden almost three times as many; and Denmark almost four times as many. That is the previous Government’s legacy.
What our friends and neighbours have realised is that a domestic national champion is a crucial tool to help deliver economic success. The success of the Danes, for example, cannot be divorced from the role of Ørsted in helping to make it happen. That is why Great British Energy will work alongside our national wealth fund and the British jobs bonus, partnering with industry, to build supply chains in every corner of the UK, delivering the next generation of good jobs, with strong trade unions, and reindustrialising Britain.
Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
I congratulate the Secretary of State on his appointment. May I draw attention to the letter he wrote to Fintan Slye, the chair of National Grid ESO, in August, and the response he has given in his open letter to the industry, alongside a question about the cancellation of the offshore co-ordination support scheme, which was coming up with viable alternatives for better delivery of the Norwich to Tilbury project? Mr Slye says that the plan the ESO will develop will be
“a whole systems spatial view of what is required to deliver a clean, secure, operable electricity system by 2030.”
Does that include all the work that ESO has already done in its review of the Norwich to Tilbury project, which includes many viable options that could speed up the process and make it more viable for the long term?
Ed Miliband
I looked carefully at that issue before we made that decision. I have great respect for the hon. Gentleman, but we cannot justify spending public money on a scheme that will not work and will not deliver for the British people, which is why we did not go ahead with the second phase. All the advice and all the evidence was that it just would not be value for money.
I am glad that the hon. Gentleman draws attention to 2030. For the first time in this country since the last Labour Government were in power, we are going to have a proper plan. We did not inherit a proper plan, and we need a proper plan to give certainty to industry.
Fourthly, Great British Energy will support project development, leading projects through their early stages to speed up delivery, while capturing more value for the British people, in particular through our partnership with the Crown Estate, announced just two weeks into our period in Government. The partnership will co-ordinate planning, grid and leasing for the seabed and, importantly, help speed up the roll-out of offshore wind and other technologies. It has the potential to help leverage up to £60 billion of private investment and deliver up to 30 GW of offshore wind leases.
The truth is we have huge potential as a country: the chance for offshore wind to drive investment in coastal areas from Cornwall to Grimsby, opportunities for ports from west Wales to north of Scotland to lead the world in the industries of the future, and opportunities for supply chain companies all over the world. That is what this Bill is about.
Ian Lavery (Blyth and Ashington) (Lab)
I am terribly excited about the ambition of the Labour Government for GB Energy. In my constituency, Blyth port is thriving. We have Energy Central on the Blyth estuary, Catapult UK, the offshore energy research centre, and Lynemouth power, a biomass power station. May I invite the Secretary of State to see the issues in my constituency for himself, and show businesses and residents how they can participate in the fantastic opportunity Government are offering?
Ed Miliband
My hon. Friend is a great champion for his area and he is right. I am sure he reflects the feelings of every right hon. and hon. Member, whatever side of the House they are on, that there are huge opportunities in this sector. We intend to exploit them. I look forward to seeing his constituency.
Ed Miliband
I will make a bit more progress. I have set out our case—a case that the British people overwhelmingly support. According to post-election polling by More in Common, Great British Energy was supported by an overwhelming 73% of voters and opposed by just 8%. It appears from the Conservative’s reasoned amendment—so-called—that Conservative Members will vote against the Bill today. If they do that, they will do something remarkable: they will go one step further than refusing to listen to the people who did not vote for them by refusing to listen to the people who did vote for them—quite a remarkable feat by an Opposition—because Great British Energy was supported not just by Labour voters, but by Conservative voters by a majority of four to one—56% to 14%.
Ed Miliband
I will make a bit more progress. [Interruption.] Conservative Members are still in the “the show was great but the audience was poor” stage of Opposition. Let me give them some advice—they will get out of that over time, but they are in the early stages now.
Because I get my kicks in strange ways, for a bit of light entertainment, I have been reading what the Conservative party leadership candidates have been saying. It is really interesting, honestly; it is quite fun reading. [Interruption.] Yes, somebody has got to do it. The right hon. Member for Tonbridge (Tom Tugendhat) said that people
“will never vote for a party that they have stopped taking seriously.”
Well, that is true. He said they should be
“given credit for seeing the errors that we may make and correcting them.”
Correct. The right hon. Member for North West Essex (Mrs Badenoch)—I believe the shadow Minister, the right hon. Member for East Surrey (Claire Coutinho), is the mastermind for her campaign—said it was no good
“having the same policy arguments from the last Parliament.”
The shadow Minister should take those words to heart.
I agree with those candidates that the Conservative party needs to move on. I am in a generous mood, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have been involved in leadership campaigns, so I have some advice. I have a free idea for the not very famous five still left in the Tory leadership competition: back an idea that the public support. Back an idea that Conservative voters support; back an idea that Labour voters support; back an idea that Reform voters support—Reform Members are not here. Back an idea that Liberal Democrat voters support. They should move on from the arguments of the last Parliament, show a bit of bravery—even break the Whip and stand out from the crowd. They should break from the past and back our Bill today.
Wera Hobhouse
The Secretary of State knows I share his passion and ambition to get to net zero. One big concern about GB Energy is that it will crowd out, rather than crowd in investment. Will he enlarge on how he intends to crowd in investment into green energy?
Ed Miliband
I am very surprised by the Liberal Democrats saying that. It is slightly “orange book” Liberal Democrats, if I may put it that way, for those old enough to remember. I say respectfully to the hon. Lady and all Members of the House: look around the world at what is happening before our eyes. There is catalytic public investment—public investment levering in private investment. The whole old fashioned, free market 1980s argument about crowding out turns out to be wrong. Just look at what is happening in America. Why is the money flowing to the United States? In part, because of the catalytic public investment. [Interruption.] I can see Opposition Members are going to be slow learners.
Great British Energy is at the heart of our long-term plan to accelerate the transition to clean energy and ensure we are never at the mercy of volatile fossil fuel markets again. It will speed up delivery, create good jobs and protect family finances, and we will reap the benefits for generations to come. I commend the Bill to the House.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Before I call the shadow Minister to the Dispatch Box, I remind hon. Members that questions to the Minister are taken through the Chair, so they must make eye contact with the Chair and not the Minister.
Claire Coutinho (East Surrey) (Con)
I beg to move an amendment to leave out from “That” to the end of the Question, and insert:
“this House, while recognising the need to cut household energy bills for families, accelerate private investment in energy infrastructure, and protect and create jobs in the energy industry across the UK, declines to give a Second Reading to the Great British Energy Bill because Great British Energy will not produce any energy, will not reduce household energy bills by £300, does not compensate for the amount of investment in energy projects that will be deterred by the Government’s plans to prematurely shut down the UK’s oil and gas sector, and involves an unjustified use of taxpayers’ money at a time when the Government is withdrawing the Winter Fuel Payment from 10 million pensioners as energy bills rise.”
I welcome you to your place, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to be back. I know the Secretary of State will have had a busy summer settling into Government, having the eagle-eyed civil service now screen all his comments and a hungry press pack on his tail about every promise he has made. He even slotted in a trip to Brazil, a place very dear to my heart, but perhaps he should have spent a bit more time on the Bill. If the Bill does everything he and his team have promised, I will be impressed. Let me remind the House what is on the record. If it saves £300 off bills by 2030, if every project it invests in is guaranteed to turn a profit by 2030, if it can get new innovative energy prototypes off the ground and create 650,000 jobs, even I will be impressed. But here is the rub: the Bill is four pages long—there is barely anything in it.
I do not want to oppose the Bill just for opposition’s sake, but the Secretary of State has provided no detail on how the Bill will deliver any of his promises, let alone all of them. It is a four-page Bill in which he is asking for £8 billion of taxpayers’ money, while setting out no investment plan, no figures for the energy that will be produced, no numbers for energy bill savings or carbon emission reductions, and not even a timeline. I doubt it can deliver any of the things he has promised. He is asking for £8 billion of taxpayers’ money—a completely blank cheque—for an energy company that will not cut bills or turn a profit by 2030. I will come back to those promises.
Several hon. Members rose—
Claire Coutinho
I will give way in a second.
The Secretary of State is setting up a new body when our energy sector is not short of state-run bodies. We have Ofgem, the National Energy System Operator, the Climate Change Committee, Great British Nuclear and, of course, the UK Infrastructure Bank, with £22 billion to provide debt, equity and guarantees for infrastructure finance to tackle climate change, set up by the former Prime Minister.
At this point, the taxpayer might well ask why they are coughing up twice for programmes that do the same thing. Here is why. When I read the Bill, tiny as it is, it rang a bell and, lo and behold, it is a carbon copy of the Infrastructure Bank legislation, so why do the same thing again? Well, there are a few important omissions and tweaks. First, while the Infrastructure Bank legislation sets out directions for governance by directors and non-executive directors, the Bill does no such thing. While the Infrastructure Bank legislation appoints an independent person to carry out a review of the effectiveness of the bank in delivering its objectives, the Bill does no such thing.
Lastly, while the Infrastructure Bank legislation gives special powers to direct investments to the Treasury—to independent civil servants—the Bill gives powers to the Secretary of State, who, as far as I am aware, has no investment background and no financial training and whose only period in the private sector, if I have this right, was as a researcher at Channel 4.
Graham Stuart
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Bill sets out huge powers for the Secretary of State—he will be like the slim controller of the energy system, as he tries to interfere. But he has a track record in such cluelessness—the 2030 decarbonisation target. “We need more ambition,” he said. We had therefore hoped that the self-confessed nerd would know how to do it, but we had the letter in August to Fintan Slye of the Electricity System Operator, which set out the fact that the Secretary of State did not have a clue about how to deliver 2030 decarbonisation. The answer from Fintan Slye, if he were not in such an impossible position, would have been short: “It can’t be done. You need to do your homework.”
Claire Coutinho
I thank my right hon. Friend for his intervention. It is always a pleasure to see him in the Chamber making excellent points.
The question that I have is this: why has the Secretary of State set up a duplicate programme with no instructions for governance, independent review, investment plans or consumer savings that he can be judged by? Why should taxpayers’ money fund a similar entity when the only difference that I can discern is that it gives the Secretary of State unchecked power? What is it about the £8 billion of taxpayer money that he can direct without checks or balances that first attracted him to the idea of GB Energy? These are fair and reasonable questions for us as the Opposition to ask, and he must look to improve the governance in this Bill.
Let me turn to the promises that he made. The Prime Minister, the Chancellor, the Secretary of State and at least 50 Labour MPs promised their constituents in the July election that GB Energy would save them £300 a year on their energy bills. They said it on their election literature, on social media and in hustings. They said it because they were told to do so by the Secretary of State, but I listened very closely to his speech today and I did not hear him make a promise that GB Energy will save them £300 on their energy bills.
In a debate just before the summer recess, the Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero, the hon. Member for Rutherglen (Michael Shanks), would not repeat the promise either. That is because they all know that it is not true. In fact, one of Labour’s first acts in government has been to take away up to £300 from 10 million pensioners this winter, including two thirds of pensioners in poverty. It takes some nerve for the Labour party to say that it never wanted to do this, because the winter fuel payment was in the manifesto of the Secretary of State’s party when he wrote it in 2010. It was in there when he was leader in 2015, it was in there in 2017 and in 2019, but in 2024 it was omitted. There was no mention at all for the first time in 14 years.
I will give credit to the right hon. Gentleman—something that I do not always do. When he was leader in 2015, he put it in his manifesto that he would take the payment away from the top 5% of pensioners. He will remember that. He had the courtesy of telling the public his plans, but, professional politician that he is, I suggest that he would have clocked that it was not included this time round. He has been in politics for 30 years and would have known what that meant, so I hope that he can confirm today whether he had any conversations with the Prime Minister, the Chancellor or Morgan McSweeney before the manifesto came out. If so, he sent out those Labour candidates—all the people on the Benches behind him—with this false promise of the £300 energy savings when someone clearly knew that they were going to take that amount away from millions of pensioners this winter.
Sir Bernard Jenkin
My right hon. Friend referred to the letter that was sent by the Secretary of State to Fintan Slye, the head of National Grid ESO and, curiously, there is nothing in the Secretary of State’s letter that refers to the need to lower electricity prices. The term “electricity prices” does not appear in the letter and neither does the term “security of supply”. Does she agree that those are the two great concerns about rushing the 2030 decarbonisation target?
Claire Coutinho
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, and I will come on to that point.
There will be a vote next week on the winter fuel payment—I think the Government have confirmed that. Everybody heard the Secretary of State speak today, so I say to those on the Opposition Benches that, if they want to break the Whip, if they want to stand out from the crowd, I am sure that they will have his encouragement.
Let us come back to those savings. The Secretary of State has promised bill savings by 2030 through GB Energy —I believe that is correct. The question is how. Does he have any serious energy expert who thinks that that is possible with an investment of £8 billion over five years? That is a drop in the ocean when it comes to energy investment. It is a fraction of the amount of investment that he is deterring from the private sector into clean energy with his plans to shut down the North sea. He talked about offshore wind, nuclear and hydrogen in his founding statement, but none of those things get built in five years. Let us be honest, the likelihood of his plans bringing any power online by 2030 is tiny. The idea that it will be enough to lower bills across households is, frankly, for the birds. When we asked his Department how much energy he wanted to enable through the Bill, his Department said that it would be looked at in due course. That is just not good enough.
The second promise is clean power by 2030. GB Energy was supposed to be the silver bullet to reach the Secretary of State’s target of a decarbonised grid by 2030. We will come on to whether that is a good idea a bit later. To do that, he said that he needed £28 billion a year. His Chief Secretary to the Treasury talked about hundreds of billions of pounds, and he has in fact secured from his Chancellor £1.6 billion a year. He talked about national ownership. This is not enough money to do that, and he knows it. He himself thought that his plans would cost vastly more, yet he is promising to do it all now with 6% of the funds. That is just not credible.
Then we come to promise No. 3. The Government say that
“in every single project”
that GB Energy invests in
“there will be a return for the British taxpayer”.—[Official Report, 26 July 2024; Vol. 752, c. 937.]
That is what the Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero, the hon. Member for Rutherglen said on 26 July—it is in Hansard if Members want to check. It says “in every single project”.
What Labour is telling industry is very different. It says that it will use that money—£8 billion of taxpayers’ money—to de-risk its projects. I believe that the Secretary of State said that in his speech today. What does that mean? That means that it will be investing in the parts of those projects that the energy companies do not expect to be profitable. May I ask this: what is it about the Secretary of State’s vast private sector experience, which he gained as a researcher at Channel 4, that makes him think he can turn a profit, when experienced, multimillion-pound energy companies cannot? He has not set out an expected financial rate of return, any risk profile or a timeframe for these returns. Those are the minimum things that anyone seeking investment should set out, and I say that as someone who is financially trained. I know that the right hon. Gentleman is not, but this is basic stuff.
Here is the problem. If the Secretary of State’s goal is to give taxpayers a good deal, he should be investing on commercial rates, which would just displace private sector capital and would not speed up his decarbonisation targets, produce more energy or lower bills. But if his goal is to de-risk more speculative projects—that is the line that he is giving industry and the thing that he said today—then by definition he will be throwing taxpayers’ money into the least attractive parts of investments, by which I mean the parts that multimillion-pound companies do not want. The risk is that GB Energy, far from generating any profit for taxpayers, will become a skip for all and everyone to put their problems and their failures inside. This is crucial, because we cannot let the Government repeat at a national scale what Labour councils have done at a local level. [Interruption.] Labour Members groan, but they should think about what local taxpayers have had to face.
Robin Hood Energy in Nottingham, which collapsed, left residents with debts of £38 million. Bristol Energy, which failed, cost residents £43 million. Warrington’s stake in Together Energy left residents with a potential liability of £37 million. These were small-time projects with budgets in the tens of millions.
Sir Bernard Jenkin
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I cannot hear what the shadow Secretary of State is saying because there is so much noise coming from those on the Government Front Bench. They do not want to hear what she is saying, because it might be true.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
I thank the hon. Member for that comment. He will know that that is not a point of order. Would the shadow Secretary of State please proceed?
Claire Coutinho
This is really important, because we are talking about taxpayers’ money. Those were small-time projects with budgets in the tens of millions, but the Secretary of State is asking for a budget of billions of pounds with no plans. He mentioned a couple of companies in his speech, including EDF, which made a loss of €17 billion in 2022, and Ørsted, which made a loss of €2.7 billion in 2023, so I think it is right that we ask some of these questions.
Ms Polly Billington (East Thanet) (Lab)
The right hon. Lady mentions Robin Hood Energy and other local energy companies that were in fact supply companies. We are talking about a Great British Energy company that will be generating energy. She simply does not understand that. She is making a mistake about our plans, and failing to understand what is actually going on. She is suggesting that something is going to happen that is not going to happen.
Claire Coutinho
If the hon. Lady would bravely like to say that the company will generate energy, I am sure that she would like to tell us how much, because no one else seems able to.
Claire Coutinho
I am sorry, but I will make some progress.
Finally—this is really important—the Secretary of State pays lip service to nuclear, but we know that when Labour was last in power it did not start a single nuclear power plant in all its 14 years. All summer, there has been an eerie silence. On the capital raise for Sizewell C, which should be out by now—nothing. On the small modular reactor competition, which should be deciding its final projects now—nothing. We committed to a third large-scale nuclear power plant at Wylfa—again, nothing. We wrote to the Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero, the hon. Member for Rutherglen, but once again he has refused to confirm any detail or, with regard to Wylfa, whether those plans are even in place. Can the Secretary of State say whether the creation of GB Energy is slowing down those projects and causing the timetable of these programmes, which will provide clean, cheap energy, to slip?
Claire Coutinho
I will not; I will continue.
Once again, we simply have no answers. I find all this very strange, because at our last encounter in this House, the Secretary of State was keen to confess that he was a “super-nerd”. As someone who has been a lifelong mathlete, I am the first person to want to champion a fellow super-nerd, but when I meet super-nerds they normally like evidence, facts and numbers. Whenever we look at what the Secretary of State has set out, there are no numbers attached. He talks about decarbonising the grid by 2030, but he has not set out the full system costs of that. He promises profits and bill savings from GB Energy, but he cannot tell us by when or how much.
When it comes to the Bill and its 2030 target, it is clear that the Secretary of State does not have the numbers, because two weeks ago he wrote a letter to the director of the Electricity System Operator. I have it here. Do you know what he said, Madam Deputy Speaker? He asked the director to please
“provide practical advice on achieving clean power by 2030”,
including a
“High-level assessment of costs”.
Given that we are talking about people’s energy bills, I think the public would like a detailed look at what this is going to cost them. To top it off, he asked the director to advise what actions his Government should take
“to enable delivery…clearly setting out where further work is required.”
The evidence could not be clearer. He went into a general election with a pledge and no idea how to achieve it, what it will cost or whether it is achievable at all.
Dame Caroline Dinenage
That is the exact point that I wanted to make; I was very keen for the Secretary of State to take my intervention on that point. The key practical, tangible thing that my constituents want to know is when they will see the £300 saving that he promised them during the general election. That is what really impacts families and households up and down this country. When a Minister comes to sum up the debate, will they restate that commitment to households about a £300 saving?
Claire Coutinho
That is a very fair question. I hope that the energy Minister, who I assume will wrap up the debate, will be able to provide some detail.
Far from being a super-nerd, the truth is that the Secretary of State is the ultimate career politician. He comes up with big titles and makes big promises to the public, but he has no idea how to deliver. My big fear—[Interruption.] He should listen, because it is an important point. My big fear is that he is losing focus on all the amazing technologies that will come online after 2030, whether it is fusion energy, the next generation of nuclear reactors or carbon capture. These are the innovative new technologies that will not just deal with the 1% of emissions in the UK but the 99% produced overseas. In Government, I focused a lot of my time on speeding up the development of those technologies. We launched the £1 billion green industries growth accelerator specifically to reduce any supply chain constraints, for example on cables. We provided almost £200 million to help the UK become the first commercial producer of advanced nuclear fuel outside Russia. We were making Britain one of the most exciting places in the world for fusion energy development, with £600 million of funding.
Wera Hobhouse
I thank the right hon. Member for giving way—finally. She is criticising the Government for the rushed target of decarbonising the grid by 2030. Can she enlighten the House on when the Conservative party would do it?
Claire Coutinho
I will. This is a critical point, which I have made in recent weeks. The point about having longer to decarbonise is that it gives time to develop British supply chains. That is exactly what I was doing. The green industries growth accelerator and some of the other things that I have talked about gave us time to set up British companies. Those things cannot be done in five years. There is a need to get project finance, to hire workers and train them, and to get planning permission. There is a huge amount that needs to be done. The fact that the Secretary of State wants to rush the transition and make it happen at breakneck speed is risking British jobs and livelihoods, and making us dependent on Chinese supply chains.
The Secretary of State has promised many things with the Bill, but he simply cannot set out any detail about the things that he wants to deliver. It would be a blank cheque for £8 billion of taxpayers’ money, with no plan, no evidence, and no numbers for the bill savings or profits that he has been promising the British public. That is why we cannot support the Bill as it stands.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
I call Becky Gittins to make her maiden speech.
Becky Gittins (Clwyd East) (Lab)
Much like one of Clwyd East’s famous sons, John Prescott, who hails from Prestatyn, I do hope my maiden speech packs a punch. Given that the custom in a maiden speech is for the new Member to talk about some of the best bits of their constituency, coming back from a summer of attending carnivals, fêtes, agricultural shows, a classic car festival, a duck race, fun days and dog shows has made my job today a little easier.
Today, I am going to take the House on a whistle-stop tour of Clwyd East, a place that it is my great privilege to represent. It is apt that I give my maiden speech in a debate about Great British Energy, as Clwyd East boasts on its coastline the port of Mostyn, with Gwynt y Môr wind farm, a UK leader in offshore wind power, and North Hoyle offshore wind farm, off the coast of Prestatyn. Both demonstrate the transformative nature of offshore wind for our country, through the energy that they generate and the local employment that they provide. Great British Energy will see that go even further, tackling the climate crisis and creating good-quality, long-term, sustainable skilled jobs in north Wales and across the UK.
Prestatyn’s beautiful stretch of coastline is not just useful for producing clean energy; it is also a hub of tourism, with its blue flag beaches, beautifully kept station and public gardens, and high street with lots of brilliant local businesses. Though I am proud to be the first MP for the new constituency of Clwyd East, I pay tribute to my predecessor in this part of the seat, Dr James Davies, the former MP for the Vale of Clwyd constituency. From Prestatyn, James used his time in Parliament to be a dementia champion, and served his country in Government.
Holywell is the next major town along the coast. St Winefride’s well, the Lourdes of Wales, brings in thousands of visitors a year. There is the old water mill at Basingwerk Abbey, based at Greenfield valley, famed for its cotton and textile mills in the 19th century, and latterly for its brilliant heritage trails, wonderful dog walks and very challenging parkrun. Holywell High Street is also home to Holywell Area Community Museum, which features my great-grandfather’s St John Ambulance uniform and my great-uncle’s mining helmet from the Point of Ayr colliery. Clwyd East has a proud mining heritage, with most families near the coast having links to the Point of Ayr or Bettisfield collieries. That heritage also formed an important part of my upbringing, and is the reason I am so proud of Labour’s commitment to end the injustice of the mineworkers’ pension scheme.
As the 684th woman to be elected to Parliament, I would like to pay tribute to Eirene White, a trail-blazer and—like yourself, Madam Deputy Speaker—a Deputy Speaker who was integral to Labour’s commitment to equal pay, as the 58th woman elected to Parliament.
Clwyd East has a vast and diverse geography, containing coastal towns, the Clwydian mountain range and the many unique villages at its base. These villages provide much in terms of innovation and activity, through the brilliant initiatives they champion and fantastic events that they hold—from community-owned pubs and shops to agricultural shows and music festivals. Hailing from the small village of Bagillt, I am immensely proud to have such a wealth of impressive, small and mighty villages in my constituency.
Farming is central to the economy and culture of Clwyd East, with 68% of the constituency serving as agricultural land. In May, I headed to Clawdd Offa farm, near Northop, to meet National Farmers Union county chairman David Williams and his family on their dairy farm. After a brief chat, we headed out into an enclosed field full of cows. In one of the more surreal moments of being a parliamentary candidate, I looked out in front of me and could not help but observe aloud, “Why would anyone want to spend their days in an enclosed space with hordes of rowdy, lowing mammals?”, to which David replied, “I quite agree Becky—you must be mad!”
Moving south, Clwyd East’s smallest town is Caerwys, which played host to the very first Eisteddfod, and is also the home of Dr Tim Erasmus, chair of the Caerwys Historical Society and my very much admired former politics teacher.
Next is the historic market town of Mold, a town very close to my heart as it is where I spent many summers performing with my dance school at Theatr Clwyd and where I went to sixth form at the Alun school. The Alun school worked to give its students the best opportunities to succeed—something that I am firmly committed to.
Maximising opportunities for young people is a passion that I know I share with one former predecessor from the Delyn constituency, David Hanson—after all, I first came to Parliament on work experience with David 13 years ago. So committed is David to providing opportunities for young people that he is continuing to monitor and support my development by joining the other place as Lord Hanson. I am so proud and excited to work alongside a political hero of mine under a new Labour Government, whose resolve to do the very same thing 32 years ago paved the way for me and a generation of young people to access opportunities and succeed.
Between 2019 and 2024, Delyn was served by Rob Roberts. I am heartened by Rob’s local roots and close ties with the community that brought him up, as well as his keenness to work with community councils and his proud use of the Welsh language, having gone to the Welsh-medium school Maes Garmon. Fel mae nhw dweud, “Cenedl heb iaith, cenedl heb galon.”
As well as having educated two MPs, Mold is also the home of Daniel Owen square; Bailey Hill, or Mold castle; and a thriving number of independent shops and businesses. With a summer recess of sampling cakes at local fêtes having taken its toll on my waistline, I am grateful to the brilliant independent clothes shops that have saved the day, including Simmi, where I found the perfect outfit to make my maiden speech in. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] Thank you; that is very kind! As is the case throughout the constituency, people in Mold take great pride in their town and contribute to the rolling series of events and festivals throughout the year.
I am also privileged to represent the beautiful town of Ruthin, with its rich history and enduring architecture. As well as Ruthin castle and its resident peacocks, the local community has worked to make sure that Ruthin’s old courthouse, jail and market hall are restored and open to the public. Ruthin also hosts the incredibly popular Ruthin festival, a fantastic annual event run by local volunteers and proudly conducted yn Gymraeg.
Heading over the horseshoe pass, the final large town of the constituency is Llangollen. As the host of the annual Llangollen International Musical Eisteddfod, Llan is proud to be the place where “Wales welcomes the world”. I did have tickets to the Eisteddfod this year—a night of west end musical numbers on 4 July—but clearly the right hon. Member for Richmond and Northallerton (Rishi Sunak) had other ideas.
With Llangollen in my constituency, I must hold the title for the constituency with the best and most varied days out. Where else could you expect to ride on a heritage steam train in the morning and head just 10 minutes down the road to kayak across an aqueduct with UNESCO world heritage status in the afternoon? Llangollen railway and the Froncysyllte aqueduct are only part of what Clwyd East has to offer. If you are feeling a bit dizzy at this point, Madam Deputy Speaker, that is because you have just travelled about 40 miles in—hopefully—around eight minutes.
Whether it is supporting local businesses to thrive, improving public transport, keeping our communities safe, improving people’s rights at work or helping young people to fulfil their potential, I will do all I can for the people of Clwyd East, and I will work tirelessly to repay the trust that they have placed in me.
Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
I congratulate the new hon. Member for Clwyd East (Becky Gittins) on a wonderful whistle-stop tour of her constituency, from wonderful dog walks to rowdy cows in fields and fascinating museums that testify to the history of her constituency. We lived in Liverpool for 10 years, many years ago, and we visited her constituency many times and had wonderful days there. I know how beautiful it is.
Championing renewable energy is in our DNA as Liberal Democrats. Renewables are clean, cheap and popular. We welcome the fact that the new Government are turning around the damaging attitude taken by the Conservative Government and are attempting to make the UK once more a global leader in getting to net zero. We are absolutely on the side of the Government when it comes to the ambitious targets that are being set to get to net zero. We are pleased that through the Bill new steps are being taken to restore British investment in the green economy. The Bill must ensure that renewable energy and home insulation can be rolled out at speed so that we meet our climate targets, bring down energy bills and provide green, well-paid jobs in the future.
The previous Conservative Government’s obsession with oil and gas left us in a mess. The dithering, delaying and even denying of the Tory Government held us back. I have often said that net zero is not like a bus that we can miss and say, “Whoops! We’ll get the next one.” This is a target that we cannot miss, and delaying is just as bad as denying that climate change is happening at all.
Wera Hobhouse
I am happy to give way; the right hon. Gentleman and I have had many discussions on this issue.
Graham Stuart
I wonder whether the hon. Lady knows of a single major economy on the planet that went faster than the previous Conservative Government in cutting emissions.
Wera Hobhouse
I am happy to respond to that, because I do believe that the UK was a global leader. There was cross-party agreement about net zero, but the last Government broke that agreement. That is our problem. Each year and each month matters when it comes to setting the pace to get to net zero. Instead of producing our own renewable energy, we were left reliant on fossil fuels—the energy of the past—and on dictators such as Vladimir Putin. In this unstable geopolitical environment, that was a death sentence and led to the catastrophe of the recent energy crisis.
Families are once again worried about another dramatic energy bill increase—we say that honestly to this Government and want to work with them on this issue—this time of £140 on a typical family’s annual energy bill. Pensioners are also rightly concerned about the Government’s plan to cut the winter fuel allowance for millions of the poorest and most vulnerable people. I raised the matter in business questions earlier and said what is important to us. We of course recognise that through the pension increase next April there will be relief for pensioners, but this winter, when things have become really difficult for pensioners, the Government should not make cuts before we have seen the benefits. We have been making that point and hope to work constructively. It is a political choice and, in our view, it is the wrong one, but it is pretty rich of the Conservative party to complain.
It is clear that if we are to hit our net zero targets, we must drive up investment in renewable energy. The Climate Change Committee’s 2024 progress report found that policy reversals and delays, together with inconsistent messaging, hindered progress just when acceleration was needed. Only around one third of the emission reductions required to meet the 2030 target are covered by our current plans. I challenged the shadow Secretary of State on what the Conservatives’ plans for decarbonising actually are, but we have had no answers. We must, for example, at least triple the operational capacity of offshore wind installations to meet our 2030 targets—and we Liberal Democrats absolutely believe in the 2030 targets.
New first-in-class renewable energy technologies are coming on the scene thick and fast, and the Government must find better mechanisms for funding them than we currently have in place. One example, if I may bring it up, is DRIFT Energy, which is based in my Bath constituency. I hope the Secretary of State is listening. DRIFT uses sailing ships to travel to the deep sea to harvest deep ocean wind and generate green hydrogen. Interesting technology is coming on board, but these new technologies still face many investment problems. The green hydrogen is then delivered to ports around the world—they are essentially fishing ships for energy. Truly novel technology like this does not fit neatly under a Department, so it becomes exceptionally hard to win grants, let alone multimillion-pound grant support. It is important that we are aware of that.
Max Wilkinson (Cheltenham) (LD)
Does my hon. Friend agree that we need the Bill to look at and include schemes like the Cheltenham green deal, run by Cheltenham borough council, through which local organisations that could not otherwise fund green schemes are able to access funding borrowed by the local council? Such schemes will then make money and provide a return for the taxpayer so that local areas can start producing more renewable energy for themselves—for example, through the investment in solar panels on the roof of Cheltenham Town football club.
Wera Hobhouse
As I progress with my speech, my hon. Friend will hear that our focus on local authorities, local decision making and local involvement is crucial. Let us ensure that our emerging technologies, which have the potential to be hugely valuable, are not overlooked or forced to seek support from abroad.
Mr Gideon Amos (Taunton and Wellington) (LD)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the Secretary of State should take on board one of the emerging technologies that could deliver the most for Great British Energy: the potential for tidal range energy? In a previous life, I was responsible for the consenting of the Swansea tidal lagoon, which unfortunately the previous Government failed to fund. It is the second biggest tidal range in the world and could be a massive success story for Great British Energy and the UK. Does she agree that the Secretary of State should take that on board as a key objective of Great British Energy?
Wera Hobhouse
I totally agree, and I am sure that the Government will agree too. A lot of these decisions are ultimately about value for money; as these tidal range technologies come on board, they can become cheaper. I hear the Government are saying that this is exactly the plan: that, where it is currently expensive, Great British Energy can come in and provide support. We understand and support that principle.
This new Government must ensure that they have clear and consistent messages. Delays to the phase-out dates of fossil-fuel vehicles and boilers, as we saw under the last Government, have sent mixed signals to investors, businesses and consumers. We hope that GB Energy will go some way in providing confidence to other investment bodies and the wider industry that Britain’s green economy is open for business.
We Liberal Democrats realise the importance of community buy-in. The new Government must put local voices at the centre of the journey to deliver net zero. We need to win hearts and minds to persuade people that net zero projects are good for their communities, for their pockets and for our future national economy.
Sarah Dyke (Glastonbury and Somerton) (LD)
The Government have said that they believe communities that host renewable energy infrastructure should benefit from it, but there are currently no ways to force developers of on-ground mounted solar panel farms to provide community benefits. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government should use this Bill to make provisions for guaranteed community benefits in these circumstances?
Wera Hobhouse
We have already had some detailed discussions about what we are doing with communities that have to host vital infrastructure, and it is important that the Government assure local communities and the Liberal Democrats that this will happen. As the Bill progresses, we need to discuss how we can get legal assurances and whether the Bill is the right place for this.
As I have said, we need to win hearts and minds to persuade people. Only with local consent can we successfully deliver the path to net zero, which is why we have called for communities living near large-scale infrastructure projects to receive community benefits—for example, through reducing energy costs and funding local initiatives. We are keen to work collaboratively to ensure that these benefits are in place in legislation.
We Liberal Democrats welcome the inclusion of clause 3, which lists specifically all the objects of GB Energy. Although those aims all have their merits, the Government have failed to include anything on community energy. That is especially disappointing—[Interruption.] May I continue? I will lay this out as I understand it—I worked on the all-party parliamentary group for community energy, and I will get to my point. It is especially disappointing that the new Government have failed to include anything on community energy, given their welcome words in the House about how important it is to enable community energy—I hear it again and again. It is no longer about words; we now have a Bill before us in which we can make this happen.
I will lay out what I think is necessary. Without the inclusion of community energy, the Bill will be a major missed opportunity. In the past, the now Secretary of State and his Ministers have been vocal champions of community energy. In a previous debate on making Britain a clean energy superpower, the Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero, the hon. Member for Rutherglen (Michael Shanks), stated:
“One of the missions of GB Energy will be around the idea of community-owned power.”
He has also advocated for local communities to have
“some sense of ownership of the assets”—[Official Report, 26 July 2024; Vol. 752, c. 942.]
that they generate. Last year, the Secretary of State himself tabled two enabling amendments on community energy to the then Energy Bill; his new clause 53 specifically would have required large-scale energy suppliers to offer a special agreement to small-scale energy companies. He has spoken at length about Labour’s local power plan, much of which we are in agreement with, but where is the commitment to community energy in this Bill?
The biggest issue we identify is that energy supply licensing conditions hinder small community energy projects from selling directly to consumers. In turn, this makes it difficult to retain advantages for local communities—discounts on their energy bills, for example, or raising new money to invest in new projects. The high burdens and costs currently involved in being a licensed energy supplier mean that not a single community energy project in all the UK can sell its power directly to local people. Locally sourced energy does not travel further across the nationwide grid, and therefore reduces that constraint on it, but the cost-benefits of selling locally produced energy to local consumers are not going to community projects and nor do they benefit the consumer. That must change. Regulatory changes are required; the Government must put them in place or stop talking about their support for community energy.
Community energy schemes need to receive a guaranteed, discounted price for the clean electricity that they contribute to the energy system. If the costs of selling their power to local households and businesses were proportionate, many more community energy schemes would become financially viable and we would get many more than we have; I urge the Government to really look at our concerns and what we can include in the Bill to make these regulatory changes. Clause 3 is the ideal place to add community energy and ensure that it is one of Great British Energy’s objects.
To conclude, we Liberal Democrats welcome the steps being taken to restore British investment in renewable energy after the mess left by the previous Government. These steps will help us to bring down energy bills, create high-quality jobs, increase our energy security and, of course, reach net zero. However, there is a clear gap in this Bill for community energy, despite Labour’s manifesto committing to it, and we urge the Government to listen to our concerns.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
I call Mike Reader to make his maiden speech.
Mike Reader (Northampton South) (Lab)
I have had the opportunity to hear some amazing maiden speeches in this House. Following such fantastic speeches, I must admit that I feel a bit nervous standing here, but I am also deeply honoured to be in the House. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd East (Becky Gittins) for her fantastic maiden speech and for graciously meeting my family when they visited last year; they are her constituents. It is clear to me that the talent, enthusiasm and fresh thinking that the new cohort of MPs are bringing into this House will help to restore our country’s fortunes and deliver the change that the country voted for.
I am delighted to make my first speech in the debate on GB Energy. For many years, it has not sat right with me that our neighbours and trading partners around the world have benefited from the investment of UK plc in clean energy. Whether it is wind farms built in Scandinavia, or investment in nuclear by our French Government partners, the UK public has been sold short on clean energy investment. It is right that the Labour Government are taking forward plans for sovereign, safe and secure energy in the UK—that is very welcome in my constituency.
I will use this speech to introduce myself and my constituency to the House, recognise the careers of my predecessors, and to set out my vision for the future of Northampton. Despite coming from a family of teachers and educators, and despite the best efforts of my dad, who joins me today from the Public Gallery, and my mum, who is watching from home, school and exams definitely did not come naturally to me. After a difficult results day, I managed to get to university via a foundation degree, and I found my passion in civil engineering.
I have been fortunate since then to have progressed through the industry—from engineering to commercial and project management—and then into senior leadership roles. I am really proud to have been recognised as a global leader in my field by my peers in the profession, despite a less-than-ideal start in life—one of my own making—and to have had my career shaped by amazing experiences, projects and people around the world. I thank in particular my friend and mentor, Jon Williams, who has helped me the whole way through my journey, and my very good friend and former podcast co-host, Jeremy Brim, for all their guidance. I also thank my former bosses, Jason Millett and Davendra Dabasia, and my amazing former work-winning team, for giving me the space and support that I needed to pursue my political passions alongside a demanding day job.
I come to this place as an advocate for the built environment. To be honest, I could not be in a better place now, with a Government focused on growth and on transforming and future-proofing our energy, housing and transportation infrastructure. Many of my friends and industry colleagues asked why on earth I would want to stand for Parliament, but my journey into the world of politics has been shaped by my time in industry. I first saw the impact of austerity on my public sector clients, with school programmes cancelled, infrastructure investment stalled and hospitals left crying out for funding. That drove me to join the Labour party and find my political voice, determined to ensure that our public sector gets from Government the support and funding that it desperately needs.
When the opportunity came to stand and make a difference, I chose to stand where I live: Northampton. I met my wife Katie, who also joins us from the Public Gallery, just down the road in Wellingborough, and Northamptonshire has been my home for nearly 20 years now. I still have a place in my heart for my home town of Romsey, which is well represented by you, Madam Deputy Speaker. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] But I am proud to call myself a Northamptonian and to represent the town that I live in and love.
Northampton South is a vibrant constituency. From Duston and Upton in the west, the Hunsburys and Shelfleys, Wootton, Collingtree, Hardingstone and Great Houghton in the south, and areas such as Weston Favell, Billing and Rectory Farm in the eastern district, each area of my beautiful constituency has its own individual identity. In the centre of my constituency remains the legacy of the shoe-and-boot trade that was once the main employer in my town. The Church’s shoe factory remains in St James, and the surrounding terraces in Far Cotton and Delapre are still standing strong nearly 200 years after they were built. As my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton North (Lucy Rigby) noted yesterday, Church’s holds the honour of being the chosen cordwainer of a renowned former Member for Sedgefield.
Great institutions such as our university, our general hospital, our football club and our Premiership-winning rugby club sit in Northampton South. [Interruption.] I was expecting a “Shoe army!” then, but that’s fine. My constituency includes Brackmills, one of the most successful business improvement districts in the UK. Thousands of people are employed at Brackmills, which plays host to over 330 brilliant businesses, spanning food production, logistics and fulfilment, manufacturing, healthcare, and research and development. I look forward to working with the BID team to ensure that it continues to be a major employment hub in Northampton South for years to come. Anyone who has visited my constituency or grew up there will know that we are the home of the national lift tower, which stands at over 400 feet high—taller than the Statue of Liberty.
The formation of the newly shaped Northampton South constituency means that I have had the opportunity to take over from two former Members of Parliament who had had very different experiences and careers in this House, and I would like to pay tribute to them both. Andrew Lewer, the previous MP for the former Northampton South constituency, was focused on parliamentary business and tackled the challenges that he saw as the most important to the UK. He championed the Motor Neurone Disease Association, which is headquartered in Northampton, as well as independent schools and house building. Locally, he will continue to be recognised through the annual Spencer Percival debate that he helped to set up in the town. He is also the only person to have held the positions of leader of a council, Member of the European Parliament and Member of this House—a testament to his public service.
I also take over in part from Dame Andrea Leadsom, the former Member of Parliament for South Northamptonshire. Many of the southern villages that have now joined Northampton South were in her constituency. Dame Andrea served as a Secretary of State under the previous Government, and had a formidable record of championing parents and children, including by establishing the Northamptonshire Parent Infant Partnership in my county. Many of the people who have written to me since my election have praised her advocacy for them as their constituency MP. It is clear that she made a massive difference not only in this House but in our county.
Northampton may hold the accolade of being the largest town in the UK—I will take that up with hon. Members for Reading after the debate—but our town has had a continual lack of investment, and a lack of vision and drive to make it better. Unfortunately, we have had no shortage of Conservative scandals: public loans to our football club went missing, our county council was made bankrupt, the former police, fire and crime commissioner stood down over misogyny complaints, and alleged domestic abuse meant that that the leader of the council resigned and now stands as an independent. Trust in politicians in Northampton is at an all-time low, but there is hope for Northampton, and it comes with a Labour Government.
This Labour Government will make Northampton a place to be proud of. We will tackle our chronic air quality challenges; fix our roads; improve our bus network; ensure that housing is affordable, of good quality and highly sustainable; make work pay and a route out of poverty; grow the co-operative, social enterprise and mutual sector in our town; bring NHS dentists back to Northampton; end the 8 am scramble for GP appointments; face head-on the funding gap left in our public services; and address the special educational needs and disabilities crisis that is rocking our county.
It is clear that there is a lot of work to do, but as I said in my acceptance speech at the count, the hard work starts here, and I really mean it. I cannot wait to get started.
Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
Let me be the first to congratulate the hon. Member for Northampton South (Mike Reader) on his maiden speech. He has demonstrated in two ways that he is quite a rare beast. Being an engineer is not a widely held profession in this House, and he will no doubt bring great value with that expertise and experience, but his business experience is also extremely valuable. I am afraid that if he looks around him on the Labour Benches, he will see precious few people with any business experience—as the Secretary of State has shown with his Bill.
The Bill is about setting up a shell company. That is it. The idea that that constitutes an energy policy is a complete myth. In fact, the Government have not even produced an energy policy. There has not been a White Paper on UK energy policy under this Government. There are no pages full of data and numbers to give us any confidence that the Government know what they are trying to achieve, how they will achieve it, or what the risks are.
In fact, that was given away in an astonishing letter that the Secretary of State wrote to the director of the electricity system operator, asking for all the information that one would expect the Government to have given that this was a major platform in their manifesto. [Interruption.] The Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero, the hon. Member for Rutherglen (Michael Shanks), shakes his head—I will give way to him if he wants to intervene—but where are the numbers? Where is the data backing up this wild assertion that just going all out for renewables will provide security of supply and lower energy costs? It is a mantra that Labour Members keep repeating to themselves with increasing enthusiasm and vehemence to make up for the fact that they have no numbers to back up their assertions.
Let me be clear about one thing: I am an advocate of achieving net zero. I believe in the target of net zero by 2050—indeed, I am a member of the net zero all-party parliamentary group. When Members hear me speak, they are not listening to some luddite or climate change denier. I want this policy to work, but there are very considerable risks, which are evidenced by reading between the lines for what is not in the Secretary of State’s letter and what is clearly flagged in Fintan Slye’s response to it.
Wera Hobhouse
Does the hon. Member not recognise that under the previous Government, the UK was falling badly behind on investment, when other countries— particularly the US—had transformed the investment that they were drawing in by making very big Government commitments to some projects, particularly nascent ones? Does he not recognise that that sort of Government support makes a big difference to business confidence?
Sir Bernard Jenkin
I do not agree with that, simply because we have seen massive investment in renewables over the past 14 years, as the former Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Graham Stuart), and the shadow Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Surrey (Claire Coutinho), set out. We have been making fantastic progress with bringing renewables on stream, but there are considerable questions to ask. I wish it were as simple as setting up a shell company and saying, “We are going to get the state to do everything”, but I am afraid it is not. As the shadow Secretary of State pointed out, Ørsted and EDF make massive losses, and either the taxpayer has to pay for those losses or those costs go on to electricity bills.
The Secretary of State announced on Tuesday that we have got all this renewable capacity coming on stream—enough to power 11 million homes. That is if we match the maximum capacity of the renewables with the average annual demand of those homes, but of course renewables are intermittent. It seems such an obvious thing to say, but we have to say it: sometimes the sun is shining, sometimes the wind is blowing, and sometimes we have enough water for hydroelectric power, but sometimes not. In the winter months, solar makes very little contribution—it makes no contribution in the dark, at night. [Interruption.] It may seem obvious, and the hon. Member for Stroud (Dr Opher) may laugh, but we need to point these things out, because when the Secretary of State says that renewables are cheaper than fossil fuels, he is comparing the strike price with the cost of buying marginal supply capacity when we need that extra marginal supply.
The strike price will not be reflected in our electricity bills, because we have to add in other things, such as system balancing costs. We have to add in grid infrastructure costs, because renewables require massive investment in grid infrastructure. We have to add in the costs of importing through interconnectors when we do not have enough domestic supply. We have not begun to factor in storage costs—the storage capacity of our electricity system is still miniscule. Members should read the Royal Society paper on creating electricity storage in this country: it is going to be astronomically expensive, and will probably still not be enough. Then there are constraint payments—oh, yes, the constraint payments. This year, we are paying £500 million to renewable producers under the contracts for difference scheme not to produce electricity when they can produce it, because that is how the system works. That is how we have attracted so much investment, but those payments are going to be about £1.5 billion next year.
I would like the Government to produce some forecasts. How much will the balancing costs be in each year over the next 10 or 15 years? How much grid infrastructure investment will need to be funded? That appears on our electricity bills—it is the standing charge, and boy, that charge is going to go up with all the infrastructure investment that we will require. How much will we have to spend on importing electricity? The two interconnectors coming into East Anglia as part of the Norwich to Tilbury programme will be importing electricity. They are not for exporting, because the only security of supply we will have if we have shut down all our combined cycle gas power stations by 2030 is from other places.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Michael Shanks)
indicated dissent.
Sir Bernard Jenkin
The Minister shakes his head, but if we have shut down all that capacity—if we cannot generate the electricity ourselves—we will have to get it from other places. There are phenomena called wind droughts, which can go on for very long periods. What are we going to do when the wind turbines are not turning and the sun is not shining during a very cold spell in the middle of winter? We had one or two close scares this winter. The generating margin that we used to enjoy has gone. The great risk of accelerating the decarbonisation of the electricity system is that there will be more appeals for voluntary or compulsory restraint from industry, because industry is the hidden customer that is shut off when we are short of electricity, or we risk more brownouts or even blackouts. That not impossible, so where is the data that the Minister is placing so much confidence in that shows these forecasts to be wrong? I am not making them off my own bat—there are plenty of people out there making them.
That brings me to the final brief point I want to make. I understand the logic that the Minister explained in his letter to me.
Mr Amos
I am sure that a Member with the experience of the hon. Gentleman will know that Britain returned to being a net exporter of electricity last year, so assuming that there will be additional costs from importing electricity due to the transition to renewables simply does not stack up. Does he also recognise that when the sun does not shine and the wind does not blow, the tide still rises and falls twice a day, 365 days a year? A future resting on renewable energy is possible, and we need to have that ambition for the United Kingdom.
Sir Bernard Jenkin
I absolutely share that ambition, but the question is how quickly we can get there. At the moment, tidal power produces almost nothing as a proportion of our electricity requirement. It is also intermittent, by the way: four times a day, there is a period during which it does not generate anything and we need to replace that supply with other things. The real challenge is how we get to the objective that the hon. Gentleman and I share in a rational way that carries the British public with us. It is noticeable that what people are complaining about most is the price on their electricity bills. Today, the constraint costs, balancing costs, infrastructure costs and import costs that I mentioned make up perhaps 50% of domestic electricity bills. If that figure is wrong, let the Minister produce some figures of his own that explain what proportion of consumers’ bills arises from all those factors, because it is not explained. There is no transparency on our electricity bills.
On the hon. Gentleman’s point about the objective of decarbonisation, we are not going to get there at all if we lose the public—if the lights start browning out or going out, and we find that we cannot meet demand. To some extent, we are piling up that demand by decarbonising transport and other parts of the system, including decarbonising building heating through heat pumps. The demand for electricity will rise, but our capacity to produce it reliably at all hours and in all conditions is being reduced.
On the question of imports and exports, we might become a net exporter of electricity, but perhaps the hon. Gentleman can explain how the price at which we are exporting compares with the price at which we are importing. The difficulty is that we will be importing when the wind is not blowing or the sun is not shining, and it is likely that the wind will not be blowing across the entirety of the North sea, so we will be importing fossil fuel-generated power at a very high cost to compensate for the fact that we have got rid of our own gas production and gas-fired power stations. I am not sure that situation will be very good.
If the hon. Gentleman would look at the Arup report on the Tarchon interconnector, which will come into my constituency under the present plans, he will see that that interconnector will not actually contribute very much to security of supply, but will be used almost entirely to export when there is too much wind. It will export at below the strike price because there is too much wind and it will export at a loss, and the cost will finish up on the bills of the British consumer. So the British consumer is paying for all the investment, paying for the strike prices, paying for the infrastructure and then paying to subsidise the exports to the Germans, who will be the beneficiaries of all this investment.
I appeal to the Minister to just read the Arup report and look at this. That is why I asked about the offshore co-ordination support scheme work that has been done. I am not going to ask for the impossible and ask him to revive the OCSS, but I would like from him an assurance that the work ESO has done will not simply be thrown away and wasted. Please can he assure the House that that work will be incorporated into the spatial plan that ESO says it wants to produce? Some very interesting innovations came out of that work, but there was also a lot of work discrediting the long-term viability of Norwich to Tilbury and, looking on a different timeframe—in the longer term—that could produce a much more viable alternative than is currently on the table. There is still work to be done on that, but I have no doubt that Fintan Slye will want to do that work as part of his project for the Government.
I would like to know that the Minister is going to support the holistic approach to which the Secretary of State referred, because Norwich to Tilbury is certainly not the product of a strategic approach to electricity grid upgrading. We need a much more strategic approach, and I am looking for that from this Government, but it certainly will not come from this Bill.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
Order. You will all be able to see—and you can all sit down while I am speaking—that a huge number of Members are seeking to catch my eye. For those not making their maiden speech, I intend to introduce a six-minute time limit. That should give those preparing their speeches plenty of time to chop out the extraneous words.
I call Chris Hinchliff to make his maiden speech.
Chris Hinchliff (North East Hertfordshire) (Lab)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to give my maiden speech in this important debate. The ongoing transition of our energy system is having a profound and, sadly, often harmful impact on many of the communities in my constituency, so I am very hopeful that the provisions in the Bill will begin at last to put the future of renewable energy in the service of those I represent. I warmly commend to my hon. Friends on the Front Bench the proposals, of which I am sure they will be aware, for Great British Energy to be given a duty to deliver nature recovery alongside its other objectives.
I begin this speech by paying tribute to my predecessor, who served our constituency and this House faithfully for many years. The clear proof of the diligence with which he carried out his duties and the respect he earned from his constituents was plainly obvious from the feedback on the doorstep throughout the general election. I especially want to thank my predecessor for the work he did to support the campaign for Hugh’s law to secure better financial support for parents caring for seriously ill children, and also for his work fighting for the restoration of the several internationally significant chalk schemes that flow through North East Hertfordshire. I look forward to doing what I can to further both of those important projects during my time in this place.
Although the many years of my predecessor’s incumbency have all but erased it from our memory, I am not in fact the first Member of my party to represent communities in North East Hertfordshire. The late, great, trailblazing Shirley Williams, when she was first elected as a Labour MP, represented many of the areas that make up my constituency. Despite the intervening 60 years, I found reading her maiden speech from 1964 very helpful in preparing for this moment, for, as she said then, the constituency I represent is in “many ways…a microcosm” of much of our country.
North East Hertfordshire from Hinxworth to Bayford contains many small rural communities full of important history and culture—from the home of George Orwell in Wallington to the stained-glass windows designed by William Morris and pre-Raphaelite artists in Waterford. In Baldock, Buntingford and Royston, we have quintessentially English market towns, home to fantastic independent businesses as well as nationally significant companies such as Johnson Matthey. In Letchworth, we have the world’s first garden city, built on the principles of the common ownership of land, which to this day offers a radical example of how to better design and build the communities of the future. Surrounding it all, we have some of the best agricultural land in the country, with local farmers such as those near Groundswell in Weston and Finches farm in Benington spearheading the ecological innovation we need to grow fantastic food in harmony with nature.
Yet in my experience of speaking to residents right across North East Hertfordshire, the recurring theme is of communities dispirited and frustrated at having their needs put aside in the interests of what others have called progress, so I will close by mentioning one debt of honour that I want to bring to hon. Members’ attention at this time. I have been asked to keep the following story anonymous by the family in question, but I believe it illustrates powerfully how the communities outside our urban centres are too often treated.
During the general election, as I reached the last road canvassing in a particularly idyllic village in my constituency, I came to knock on the final door in a quiet row of terraces. After initially waiting without answer, I was about to leave when I was called over by a voice from the passenger seat of a nearby car. The gentleman sat there was not old and was keen to speak, but was clearly very ill. Between painful coughing and laboured breathing, he explained to me how in the construction of new housing in the meadow beyond his street, agricultural sheds containing asbestos were demolished with almost incomprehensible recklessness in a single afternoon by workers who were themselves equipped with virtually none of the necessary protective equipment. Rather than the asbestos being carefully removed, it was smashed up on site, creating large clouds of hazardous dust right next to the existing homes.
The gentleman I was speaking to had, tragically, subsequently contracted asbestosis, which had ruined his health and left him barely able to travel from his front door to his car. Despite the concerns he raised at the time, no one was ever held to account for these actions, and he urged me passionately to raise the dangers associated with the rushed and unsafe demolition of agricultural buildings containing asbestos at the earliest opportunity if I was elected as his MP. I am sorry to inform the House that when I returned a few weeks later to speak to him about honouring his request and including this story in my maiden speech, I was told by his widow that he had recently passed away. The chance for any meaningful justice for this family has now gone with him. Meanwhile, developers have no doubt pocketed a return on investment that much fatter for having fatally cut corners at the expense of local residents.
Whether it is profit-led developments, the cancellation of bus routes, or the closure of banks and village schools, the fundamental experience of towns and villages like those in North East Hertfordshire has too often been one of being done to and expected to endure, rather than one of being looked after, worked with and empowered to contribute. It is this, above all, that I hope to chip away at in my contributions in this place. I thank the House for listening patiently to my first attempt, and my constituents for giving me the opportunity to do so.
Liz Jarvis (Eastleigh) (LD)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to make my maiden speech during the debate on this important Bill. I welcome efforts to provide renewable energy, bring down heating bills and support the growth of our green manufacturing industry. I hope the Bill will make clear provisions for GB Energy to engage with local communities such as mine in Eastleigh. I would also like to congratulate the hon. Member for North East Hertfordshire (Chris Hinchliff) on his excellent speech.
I am incredibly humbled and honoured to be the Liberal Democrat Member of Parliament for Eastleigh, and grateful to all those who put their trust in me to represent them. I am also grateful to everyone who encouraged me on my journey to Westminster, but particularly Baroness Floella Benjamin, the former MP for Eastleigh Mike Thornton and the family of David Chidgey. Lord Chidgey was committed to fighting to keep our precious chalk stream, the River Itchen, free from sewage and pollution. As my constituents know, I am continuing his legacy. I also thank my predecessor and his team for their prompt response to hand over casework.
My constituency is a vibrant community of towns and villages. The town of Eastleigh grew up around the railway line between Southampton and Winchester, and was named by local author Charlotte Yonge. Eastleigh became a local point of aerial efforts during the first and second world wars, with Spitfires taking off from the airfield, which is now Southampton airport. We have beautiful green spaces including Stoke Park wood in Bishopstoke, Flexford nature reserve in Valley Park, and Hiltingbury lakes in Chandler’s Ford. West End is home to the Utilita Bowl cricket ground, where the late great Shane Warne captained Hampshire, a proud part of our sporting tradition. We are also incredibly proud of our Spitfires, Eastleigh football club, who play in the national league.
We have all been inspired by our extraordinary athletes competing at the Olympics and Paralympics this summer. I hope the House will join me in congratulating Eastleigh-born three-time Paralympic champion David Smith on his recent bronze medal win in Paris, and on his tireless championing of boccia. Eastleigh’s Olympic heritage stretches back to 1932, when local hero Tommy Green, who was unable to walk until the age of five due to rickets, went on to win a gold medal in the men’s 50 km walk.
My constituency is also home to the fantastic Point theatre, with its brilliant programme of cultural events all year round, including the always popular Unwrapped festival, and we are lucky to have many fine pubs and craft breweries, including Steam Town in Eastleigh town, and Steel Tank Alehouse in Chandler’s Ford. I also recommend the luscious Victoria sponge at Fountain café in Fair Oak.
Eastleigh has a proud history of helping to support refugees and evacuees. In May 1937, children and adults fleeing the Spanish civil war were housed at a refugee camp in North Stoneham. Eight-five years ago this week, Eastleigh communities welcomed evacuees from Gosport, and in 1940, refugees from Southampton. More recently, our local council was one of the first authorities in England to house refugees fleeing the Taliban during the 2021 Afghanistan evacuation, and people across the constituency threw open their doors to families fleeing the war in Ukraine. Earlier this summer, Eastleigh hosted the always popular annual Mela, organised by our Asian Welfare and Cultural Association, and in a few weeks, it will be Eastleigh Pride. We have a warm, inclusive community in Eastleigh, which is very important to me, as is fighting to ensure that everyone in our community can access the NHS services they need, including GP and dentist appointments, and mental health care when they need it.
My mum died in March after a seven-year struggle with Alzheimer’s, and as anyone who has experience of caring for a loved one with dementia will know, with that awful disease you lose the person twice. Mum was the daughter of Irish migrants, a member of the women’s liberation movement who took me on my first march when I was a toddler, and a member of the Labour party who knew MPs Joan Lestor and Tom Cox well. She would go on to become a senior social worker. My dad was from Hampshire and a former officer in the British Army who served his country for 16 years. Although my mum and dad were diametrically opposed politically, they shared a strong sense of compassion, and they raised my sister and me with those same values.
Unfortunately, my parents were never in a position to own their own home, so I grew up in rented accommodation with all the insecurity and uncertainty that goes with it. When my dad died suddenly before my 21st birthday, my mum found herself in the position that far too many people are facing today, with spiralling rents and the prospect of eviction looming over them. Since becoming the MP for Eastleigh, I have received letters from residents facing eviction through no fault of their own on an almost daily basis. I am proud that my party has been pushing for higher standards for renters so that everyone has a safe and secure home.
As a comprehensive-educated single mum who skipped meals to feed my son and keep a roof over his head during the so-called great recession, I know all too well how easy it can be to fall through the gaps. After 14 years of the previous Government, far too many families in Eastleigh simply do not have any kind of safety net and are living hand to mouth. It is incredibly important that we do everything we can to support those who continue to struggle with the cost of living and to lift children out of poverty, including by scrapping the two-child benefit cap, as well ensuring that all children have access to the education they deserve, including those with special educational needs.
I am passionate about ensuring that all children and young people in Eastleigh and across the UK are given the support, resources and opportunities to thrive and fulfil their full potential. I will conclude by acknowledging the vital role that our local charities play in supporting families in Eastleigh, including Citizen’s Advice Eastleigh, Pavilions in the Park, Youth Options, and many more. I promise I will do everything I can to support everyone in our community during my time in Westminster, and to be the strong voice in Parliament that the people of Eastleigh deserve.
Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab)
Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, and may I congratulate you on being in the Chair? It is pleasing to me and a benefit to the House to have three strong women in that position. I also congratulate the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Liz Jarvis), who used her personal experience to speak of her pleasure and pride in her constituency. Her personal, lived experiences will make her a much stronger MP in this House; I welcome her to her place.
Rotherham is a hub of innovative green energy research and production, which is integral to the UK’s energy transition. Our Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre—AMRC—boasts expertise in nuclear, fusion, hydrogen and the construction of offshore wind turbine blades. That creates good, skilled jobs for Rotherham and contributes more than £55 million to the South Yorkshire economy every year. The AMRC is also home to the UK’s first sustainable aviation fuel facility, and therefore I welcome the SAF Bill which is coming soon.
Rotherham’s renewable production does not stop there. Our fusion technology facility works with industry and science, to pioneer fusion energy as a major source of low-carbon electricity. Templeborough power station, a biomass plant, sustainably converts waste wood into energy. It uses recycled sawdust, wood chippings and scrap that would go into landfill, and is used in my constituency by Esken Renewables to fuel the power station. In doing so it saves 150,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide every year. The research and innovation taking place every day in Rotherham gives it a unique role to play in this Government’s ambitious energy plans, and there is an open invitation to the Secretary of State and Ministers to visit the opportunities in my constituency. I ask the Minister to include community energy as one of the specific objectives in clause 3 of the Bill.
An inquiry by the Environmental Audit Committee outlined the enormous contribution that community energy schemes can bring, while reducing dependency on international energy imports. I express my gratitude to Ministers for not pursuing the legal challenge on the closure of the Rosebank oilfield. When the Conservatives were in power they granted new oil and gas licences to sites such as Rosebank, but over a third of licences granted overlapped with marine protected areas and failed to consider the impact on biodiversity and marine health. MPAs are intended to protect rare, threatened and important species from damage caused by human activities. Instead, innumerable careless decisions by the last Government led to 215 spills over the previous 12 years, resulting in 308 tonnes of oil being spilled and a devastating biodiversity decline in the very areas we should be protecting the most.
Like many in the Chamber I believe that solar energy has a key role to play in our transition to a low-carbon economy. However, I am concerned that without incorporating human rights mechanisms in the Bill, the transition will not be clean or just. It is well documented that solar photovoltaic supply chains have a sinister dependency on forced labour programmes in the Xinjiang autonomous region of China, where the Chinese Government are systematically persecuting millions of Uyghur, Turkic and Muslim- majority people on the basis of their religion and ethnicity. The People’s Republic of China’s global market share across the solar PV supply chain exceeds 80%. The Uyghur region has become the dominant global sourcing location for critical inputs for the solar industry. An estimated 35% of global polysilicon—used in almost all solar panels worldwide—is produced in Xinjiang. China’s rapid success in the industry has been achieved with low-cost, subsidised, dirty coal, completely undermining the green credentials it boasts.
As early as 2021, the US enacted the Uyghur Forced Labour Prevention Act, which placed a ban on the importation of products from the Uyghur region, including shipments of solar panels with connections to Xinjiang. The legislation has been highly effective, with the market responding with new, ethical supply chains. Canada, the EU and Mexico have followed suit with similar regulations, but we have fallen behind. I urge the Minister to address that failing, now that evidence has emerged of global supply chains bifurcating, with tainted solar goods being redirected to countries with weaker regulation, such as the UK. Our nation has become a dumping ground for dodgy solar. With this Bill, it is vital that we make a U-turn on the mistakes of our predecessors.
I welcomed the Secretary of State for Business and Trade saying this morning that he expects and demands
“no modern slavery in any part”
of our solar supply chain. He expressed a willingness to extend legislation to help tackle the problem. We must raise standards with this Bill by committing to the production and supply of clean energy that is free from slavery and state-imposed forced labour at any stage of the supply chain, and I will be tabling amendments to that effect. In tandem, we must seriously consider implementing an import ban. Like the US prevention Act, it would need to ban renewable energy products made in whole or in part with state-imposed Uyghur forced labour. I hope the Minister will meet me to discuss that further.
Harriet Cross (Gordon and Buchan) (Con)
It is hard to overstate the importance of the energy sector to my constituents and, indeed, to the whole of north-east Scotland, so I am grateful to be called today. First, I must address the reports that Great British Energy might be headquartered in Aberdeen. The Government are still yet to confirm that, saying that it is speculation, but the manner in which they have managed this announcement speaks volumes. The ambiguity and the joking about when an announcement might be made, and then just saying that the headquarters will be in Scotland, do absolutely nothing to help the speculation and delayed decisions or give the industry any confidence. These layers of uncertainty are driving away investment and creating a less secure job environment in north-east Scotland. Aberdeen has always been the energy capital of Europe. It has been that way for half a century, so it is the most logical choice for the headquarters.
I have significant reservations and concerns, which I will outline today. The North sea oil and gas industry is not just part of the economy in Aberdeenshire, but the bedrock on which our communities and my constituents in Gordon and Buchan have built their livelihoods for generations. It is not just about the direct jobs in the industry and the associated services in the hospitality sector, for example. An overall economic ecosystem has developed, and that is why it is critical that we manage the energy transition properly, so that the north-east of Scotland does not become the next region to suffer industrial decline as the mining areas did. I am sure that the Secretary of State, the Minister and the Labour party do not want that on their record.
The Government’s plan for Great British Energy, coupled with the energy profits levy, puts the industry at risk at this vital time. The proposed increases and the removal of the investment allowances could be a death knell for investment in our area. Let me be clear: this is not about protecting the profits of large companies just for profits’ sake; it is about protecting the jobs and skills and futures of our communities. Offshore Energies UK has warned that the tax increase could see investments in the UK cut, and that they might fall from £14.1 billion to £2.3 billion between now and 2029. That is not scaremongering; it is what the industry is facing.
We can take today’s figure of £14.1 billion of private investment and compare that with what the Government are suggesting: £8.3 billion of public investment into GB Energy just to create an investment vehicle. We already have an investment stream in the north-east of Scotland. It is not Government money that is needed, but a stable, fair, globally competitive market for our national and multinational companies. They will do the business. Public money to create GB Energy while simultaneously introducing these punitive taxation and other measures that are projected to drive away investment just does not make sense, because the same investment in capital, skills and personnel that we need for our energy security today are also vital for an effective and efficient transition to clean energy.
I have a number of questions for the Government about Great British Energy, and I will start with job security and creation. How will Great British Energy protect existing jobs in Aberdeenshire’s energy sector? We have already seen a significant loss of jobs due to the oil price downturn and market uncertainty. The Government boast that Great British Energy will create 650,000 new jobs, 69,000 of which are projected to be in Scotland, but we need specifics. Figures have been provided at a regional level across England, but we have only one figure for the whole of Scotland.
The distribution of jobs in Scotland is currently heavily weighted towards Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire and the north-east, so no matter how many jobs might or might not be generated by GB Energy in Scotland, my constituents want and need to know where those jobs will be. Can the Minister confirm when he sums up how many of the jobs will be in Aberdeenshire and the north-east, what types of roles they will be and when they will be created? Already, oil and gas workers are losing their jobs and moving abroad to maintain or progress their careers. They are the workers we need for the transition.
Secondly, we must consider the economic impact on our local communities. For example, how will the wealth that flows into our local infrastructure and economy and community projects be replicated in the future under Great British Energy? Looking at the national picture, the Oil and Gas Authority estimates that the total revenue from oil and gas production in the five years to 2024 was £5.3 billion. Are the Secretary of State and the Chancellor willing to sacrifice that in the pursuit of an accelerated transition? That would be a significant dent in the £8.3 billion of public investment.
We need a balanced approach. We are not against the energy transition, and we recognise that the transition will take time, but rushing it could have severe consequences for communities such as mine in Gordon and Buchan. We are after net zero, not absolute zero. They are different things, and we do not need to banish oil and gas from our energy mix immediately in order prematurely to be on the road to net zero.
The people of Gordon and Buchan and indeed all of north-east Scotland are not against change. We have been at the forefront of energy innovation for decades, but we need the transition to work for our communities and to build their strength, rather than dismantle them. We must protect jobs. I call on the Government to provide clear answers, not just high-level projections, on how we expect Great British Energy to benefit, not harm, the existing industry in Gordon and Buchan. Our communities have so much to lose if we get this wrong, and they deserve our help with a comprehensive plan, not ideology.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
I call Uma Kumaran to make her maiden speech.
Uma Kumaran (Stratford and Bow) (Lab)
I am grateful for the opportunity to make my maiden speech with my parents and husband in the Gallery today. I congratulate the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Liz Jarvis), who gave an impassioned speech showing how deeply she cares for her community, its heritage and in particular the history of caring for refugees. She spoke so lovingly of her late parents.
It is the honour of my life to be elected as the first ever MP for Stratford and Bow. I was born in east London, and I have lived in Stratford and in Bow. I studied at one of our brilliant local universities, Queen Mary. To go from local student to local MP in 20 years has been quite the homecoming. Not getting our declaration result until nearly 6 am really did bring back memories of stumbling home from uni.
I pay tribute to the force of nature Lyn Brown, who served her home West Ham as the Member of Parliament for 19 years, and for a total of 36 years of selfless service to communities in Newham. A true east London girl, her guidance and support have been invaluable. I have no doubt that her contribution to the east end and public life will continue. I also inherit Bow from my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Rushanara Ali). She is another trail-blazer, as the first Bangladeshi-origin woman elected to Parliament. She has inspired a generation with the promise of what is possible.
Although Stratford and Bow is a new parliamentary constituency, its history is old and rich. The Woman’s Hall at Old Ford Road in Bow was home to Sylvia Pankhurst and Norah Smyth and the headquarters of the East London Federation of Suffragettes from 1914 until 1924. It was the beating heart of the east end suffrage movement, and the home of the matchgirls’ strike and the largest union of women and girls in the country. Every corner is filled with the history of the struggle for women’s rights and for our voices to be heard; a history that I will work every day to honour. As a proud grand- daughter of a trade unionist and a member of the GMB union, I go forward in their memory and will continue to fight for working people.
Parts of my constituency have been represented by illustrious political figures including Charles Key, Keir Hardie, Lansbury and Clement Attlee, who led the Labour Government that created our beloved NHS—so no pressure on this new Member. Our stunning Victoria park with its breathtaking canals opened to the public in 1845 and became the people’s park: a centre for political meetings and rallies with speakers such as William Morris and Annie Besant.
It is not just political history that we are blessed with in Stratford and Bow. I am sure that many hon. Members in the Chamber love nothing more than going home after a long day sitting in the Chamber and putting on their favourite grime playlist. They can thank Bow for playing an integral part in the origins of grime music, with Roman Road and its once-beloved record shop producing artists and crews such as Roll Deep and Skepta to name just two. Over in Newham, we have our top boy Kano.
I can see that I have completely baffled some hon. Members—[Laughter.] For those whose tastes are a bit more retro, we are also home to ABBA Voyage. My constituency is a place where people can come and spend their money, money, money in some of our brilliant local and international businesses. Of course—it cannot be missed—sitting at the heart of my constituency is the London stadium: a place of joy and wonder from the 2012 Olympics and some of our most wonderful sporting achievements. As this generation of Team GB Paralympians competes in Paris, I send my wishes to them.
The ability to bring people together that sport possesses is like nothing else, so it is a privilege and honour to be the Member of Parliament for the greatest club in world football—sorry, Keir—West Ham. As a Hammer since 5 July—[Laughter]—I am proud to be forever blowing bubbles. I know that there are several Hammers fans on the Government Benches and throughout the parliamentary estate—probably more of us than Members on the Opposition Benches.
Stratford and Bow is a wonderful, vibrant and diverse constituency, and our current heritage lives up to that history. Forest Gate is the home of independent cafes and shops and Forest Gayte Pride, overlooking the nature and beauty of Wanstead Flats. There are the bustling shops of Green Street serving communities throughout east London, alongside mosques, temples, synagogues, gurdwaras and churches. It is a place that is truly representative of the rich tapestry of cultures and people that make up our great capital city, London.
People from all over the world have come to Stratford and Bow to make the UK their home. My constituency is a prime example of Britain at its best, with pearly kings and queens, and white, European, Indian, Bengali, Pakistani, Chinese, African, Asian, middle eastern, Caribbean communities and more living side by side and working together to make a better society for everyone. Wherever someone is from, they are welcome in Stratford and Bow.
I am proud, too, to have origins as an east London girl born in Homerton hospital, but I was born here but by fate. I am the daughter of Tamil refugees and the child of a community that knows what it is like to endure prejudice and persecution. My parents, proud and patriotic British citizens, came to Britain over 40 years ago, but they did not simply come here; they fled for their lives, forced to leave behind everything and everyone they knew and loved, torn from a good and prosperous life in their prime to start from scratch in an unfamiliar country, working multiple jobs day and night to give me the chances that were taken from them.
Britain welcomed my parents with open arms so that they could rebuild their lives and flourish, and it was the east end that they first chose to call their home. This is the London that I know and love, and it is the story of Britain and British values at its best: outward looking and compassionate; a country where people can work hard and triumph. Mum and dad, thank you for everything: your endurance and your will to succeed—[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] You are part of the success story of Britain, and that is a story that can be found in every corner of Stratford and Bow and in every part of Britain, with the hope and aspiration for a better tomorrow that all parents have for their children and the dreams of a safe and secure life.
It is that hope and determination to fight for a better future that this Labour Government will work hard every day to deliver. Whether the people of Stratford and Bow were born here, came here in search of a better life or just moved to the best bit of London—whatever their start in life—I will ensure that their voices are heard and valued. I pledge to work day in, day out to tackle the root causes of poverty, to fight for more police on our streets so that women and girls feel safe to walk home at night, parents do not have to worry about knife crime and young men are not having to look over their shoulders when they walk home after dark, and to fight for an NHS that is here for us in our time of need, where patients can be seen in wards, not corridors.
Delivering my maiden speech during the GB energy debate is apt. Climate change remains one of the greatest challenges of our time, and we must redouble our efforts. Before I came to this place, I worked internationally on climate action with cities around the world, the United Nations and civil society to help stop our world going past the point of no return and ensure that generations who come after us have a world that has not been destroyed because of our failure to act or our fear of being bold.
I feel deeply the responsibility that I have to repay the faith that the people of Stratford and Bow have placed in me and the duty that I have to be their voice here in Westminster. I will work every day for that and for the values and pledges that I was elected on. Thank you.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
I call Tom Morrison to make his maiden speech.
Mr Tom Morrison (Cheadle) (LD)
Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I congratulate the hon. Member for Stratford and Bow (Uma Kumaran) on that incredible maiden speech. Her pride in her community really shone through and was incredibly infectious.
I am truly honoured to be given the opportunity to deliver my maiden speech in this House. I begin by paying tribute to my predecessor, Mary Robinson. Despite our political differences, I had a good working relationship with her and was fortunate to work with her as part of the Cheadle towns fund board, where we helped to deliver much-needed investment into the constituency, including developing plans for Cheadle train station. I know that Mary took great interest in local business, and her work on the board was testament to that. I wish both her and her husband Stephen all the best in their next chapter.
I will also take this moment to pay tribute to my Liberal Democrat predecessors for Cheadle. The incredible Patsy Calton is very much missed and was held in a great deal of respect across both sides of the House. Mark Hunter served Cheadle for 10 years as its MP and served in government as an assistant Whip. I have huge shoes to fill following both Mark and Patsy, who are legends in the constituency. I hope that I can build on their legacy.
I will also take a quick moment to thank my incredible team for leading such a brilliant and hard-fought election campaign, and my family for their support. Most of all, I thank my incredible partner Louise for all her love and backing over the years. It is here, however, where I must confess to breaking my first election pledge. Not long before the general election was called, Lou and I found out that we were to be expecting our first child. While we were, of course, over the moon, that news came off the back of a very hard local election campaign and amid Lou experiencing extreme morning sickness. So, being the supportive partner that I am, I assured Lou that this would be a first trimester of absolute peace, tranquillity and calm as there was absolutely no way that the Prime Minister would call a general election in the summer. We all know how that turned out. I put on record my apologies to Lou for breaking that promise. I will endeavour to ensure that is the first and last time I break my word to a constituent.
Cheadle is truly a brilliant place. We have wonderful green spaces, brilliant schools and some fantastic high streets, but what makes the constituency so special is the people. The area is built on the foundations of so many community groups and organisations, all campaigning and working to make our community a better place for everyone. There are allotment groups such as Billy’s Lane who invite local schools to learn about growing food and healthy eating. There is Cheadle Civic Society, led by the inspirational Phillip Gould-Bourn, who protects Cheadle’s heritage and historic character. There are many faith groups including Cheadle Masjid, Grove Lane Baptists and Yeshurun Hebrew Congregation who provide support for our most vulnerable residents, and there are hundreds of community organisations and friends’ groups such as the Friends of Carr Wood who are the guardians of some of our most precious green spaces and rightly challenge those who would do them harm. Those are the people who make Cheadle so special, and I thank them for putting their faith in me as Cheadle’s Member of Parliament. I have always said that I would be their voice in Westminster, not Westminster’s voice in Cheadle. That will always be my goal.
There is much to do. Our local hospital, Stepping Hill, is in dire need of investment. For too long, staff and patients have had to make do with a hospital that is literally falling apart. The out-patients building was condemned and is now demolished, and in March the intensive care unit, which looks after some of the most critical patients, was temporarily closed because the ceiling was coming in. Nurses have even told me about bucket squads—for the uninitiated, this is a term they have coined for an extra duty they now have on shift, where they each have a bucket to place down when it rains to catch the water coming through the roof. This is a disgrace.
No hospital, let alone one as busy as Stepping Hill, should operate in those conditions. That is why my first act as the Member of Parliament for Cheadle was to write to the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, asking for the funds that Stepping Hill desperately needs for repairs. I am pleased that the Government have since said that funding will be made available, but until we get the detail and the money, I will keep fighting to ensure that Stepping Hill, its staff and its patients get the funding they deserve.
I will also keep fighting to get my residents the support they need during the cost of living crisis. This is an issue of huge importance to me. When I was 13, my mum, brother and I were threatened with homelessness because mum, who worked several jobs to make ends meet, could not afford the private rents. We faced relying on friends who could offer couches or spare rooms to help us. The idea was sold as a fun holiday to me and my brother, but I can remember how anxious and worried my mum looked and how conversations between adults would suddenly stop as I walked into the room. Life felt unsettled, and I could tell that my mum was scared and needed help.
It was a Lib Dem councillor called David Bruce who that helped us, by fighting and getting us a council house. Because of him, we had a home, giving us the security and stability to get on in life. Home was no longer an anxious place. Mum was happier, and my brother and I could focus on our schoolwork. That experience inspired me to get into politics, because I saw at first hand the positive impact that it can have on people’s day to day lives. Without that councillor, I can honestly say I would not be standing here today. But that was not the end of our story. We still struggled. Faced with rising bills, mum would sometimes have to decide whether to put money into the electric meter or food into the cupboards. If I think about it, I can still hear the clunk of the pay meter going off and plunging the house into darkness. Mum would often joke that that was the cue for us to go to bed.
Sadly, I know from speaking to my constituents that this story is still being lived out all too frequently. The choices that many families have to make are horribly familiar. The choice to heat their home or feed their children should never be forced on anyone, yet thousands of families across Stockport face that choice every day. I was proud that the Liberal Democrats on Stockport council led the way by establishing a warm spaces programme, supporting community organisations with the funds to help shelter vulnerable residents who could not afford to heat their homes during the winter months. Many authorities are now doing that across the country, but as wonderful as that is, we cannot sit back and accept this situation.
Great British Energy is a step in the right direction. I welcome the move to restore British investment in clean energy, and if Great British Energy actually brings down costs for my constituents, that will be nothing but a good thing. I will do all I can to help my residents in Cheadle. When it comes to the cost of living, I will hold this Government to account when I believe they are not doing enough to support those who need it. Better health services, support for the cost of living crisis and championing my amazing community—those are some of the things that I will do as Cheadle’s Member of Parliament. It is truly the honour of my life to be standing here working for the place I call home—the place I am now raising my family. I hope I will do Cheadle proud here.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
I call Jayne Kirkham to make her maiden speech.
Jayne Kirkham (Truro and Falmouth) (Lab/Co-op)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Cheadle (Mr Morrison), whose experience and passion will be of great benefit to both his constituents and his local hospital, and to my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford and Bow (Uma Kumaran), who will be a very worthy successor to those suffragettes.
It is a real honour and a privilege to be standing here as the MP for Truro and Falmouth. I arrived in Cornwall quite by accident nearly 20 years ago, having been swept off my feet by a naval pilot who tempted me away from life as a London trade union lawyer, with images of beaches and sunsets. He flew search and rescue helicopters at Culdrose naval station. Unfortunately, as is often the case, our military marriage was short, and I was left as a single mum with a small son. But I chose to stay and bring him up in Cornwall, and it is very much our home. Becoming a single parent was sudden and difficult, but I was fortunate. I benefited from the opportunities offered by the last Labour Government and was able to get back on my feet. I retrained and took a job as a teaching assistant working in a local secondary school for seven years, first in special educational needs and later as an unqualified teacher, which shows the journey that education has been on.
I pay tribute to my predecessor, Cherilyn Mackrory. She served in a number of roles in this place; she showed her passion for the environment in her work on the Environmental Audit Committee and as chair of the ocean conservation all-party parliamentary group. She also drew on her own personal experience to help others. She did a huge amount to shape the women’s health strategy and maternity safety awareness, and was integral in introducing the new pregnancy loss certificate. Both Cherilyn and her predecessor, Sarah Newton, worked to secure a new women and children’s unit at Treliske hospital in Truro, one of the previous Government’s 40 new hospitals or units. It is desperately needed and a long time coming. I had my son in the existing unit nearly 19 years ago, and the building was not fit for purpose then. I really want to ensure its speedy completion.
Truro and Falmouth has existed as a constituency only since 2010. It sits in the middle of the Duchy of Cornwall, spreading from Falmouth on the south coast to Crantock on the north coast. Falmouth is my home, and where I have sat as a councillor for the past six years. It is a vibrant and welcoming town enveloped by the ocean. Falmouth has played its part in the history of Great Britain. In the late 1600s, the town was appointed the Royal Mail packet station, receiving and sending mail and messages all around the globe, making Falmouth —for 150 years at least—the information superhighway of the British empire.
However, Falmouth is more than its seafaring past. We still have two splendid castles, Pendennis and St Mawes, protecting the entrance to the Carrick Roads, but the constituency is also the site of Falmouth University, built on the legacy of the famous art school that is still found on Woodlane, but now anchored across the border in the state-of-the-art Tremough campus in Penryn, which it shares with the University of Exeter. The area brims with creatives, scientists and engineers—whom Dawn French, the university’s chancellor, described as “enterprising dreamers”.
If we follow the River Fal upwards, we reach Truro, Cornwall’s capital and only city, with its impressive cathedral and award-winning theatre Hall for Cornwall. It has Lys Kernow, the home of Cornwall Council, as well as Treliske, the acute hospital. The constituency also has a large rural element, with an array of beautiful villages and areas such as the Roseland peninsula, where farming and fishing are still vital industries.
When researching for this speech, I was struck by the words in the maiden speech of one of Cornwall’s most well known and loved Members of Parliament, David Penhaligon. Exactly 50 years ago in this House, he referred to an economy that relies on tourism, traffic conditions in the summer months that strangle much of the industry that keeps the place going for the rest of the year, tremendous pressure on hospital services, sewage problems, pressure on housing, the problem of summer lets and the lowest average wage in Britain. I am pleased that the measures in this Government’s programme—a real living wage, the water Bill, devolution and renters rights—will help to address some of those issues, but it is shocking that many of the issues that he mentioned then are, sadly, still very much in evidence today, half a century on. For a place on the edge of the map, Cornwall is too often at the edge of our thoughts in this place. Like Penhaligon, I believe that Cornwall, with its proud and independent heritage, deserves better.
Turning to the topic of this debate, there is so much to be excited by. As well as Cornwall’s potential for onshore wind, we have 20% of Europe’s requirement for critical minerals and geothermal energy beneath our feet, buried in our granite. We only have to look at a horizon dotted with the ruins of engine houses to know that the people of Cornwall are more than happy to dig for their treasure. Falmouth is a town with its face turned to the sea. The port still has a very busy harbour and docks, which have businesses servicing both military and commercial ships, as well as hosting cruise and leisure vessels. But there is potential for so much more, and the port of Falmouth is poised to take advantages of a new generation of offshore wind production in the Celtic sea. With the support of the new energy company GB Energy, the £1.8 billion ports fund and investment in the skills training we so desperately need, our young people will be able to grasp with both hands the well-paid jobs of the future, while securing our own home-grown energy and facing down the challenge of climate change—a challenge that is so important to a place like Cornwall, which stares the impacts of the changing climate in the face every day. We were the first large rural authority to declare a climate emergency and the 2030 net zero target. Now, we will play our part in getting the country to meet a similarly ambitious target. Falmouth’s time truly has come again as part of the Government’s mission to become a clean energy superpower.
Truro and Falmouth is the most magical place to live. It well and truly hooked me and my small family, and has become part of me. My journey, despite its ups and downs, has been a charmed and happy one. Truro and Falmouth has given so much to me, and it is overflowing with promise and brilliant, independent-minded enterprising dreamers. I am determined to serve my home as well as it has served me. A bright future lies ahead for it.
Dave Doogan (Angus and Perthshire Glens) (SNP)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Jayne Kirkham) on a really wonderful maiden speech. It is heartening to see how much love and passion she has for her adopted home in Cornwall—and who does not like Cornwall? I am sure her constituents will be tremendously well served by the passion we saw just now.
The Government must accept that the messaging around GB Energy was muddled at the very least during the election. It was almost as though it was rushed through as a manifesto headline, rather than resulting from the strategic development of careful, thought-out, optimised planning, but there we are. We understand that there will be limited co-production from the company, no retail arm and no public sector comparator role. It will be a provider that does not do much provision and a decider that does not make any decisions. Talk about net zero—there is zero detail in the Bill to give us an indication of what will actually happen on the ground. It was going to sell energy to the public, and then it was not. It was going to generate energy. Then it was not, and now it will again. I think we are still in that space.
I heard in the Secretary of State’s opening remarks that there has now been a modification to the brand: it is now GB Energy generating company. The “generating” bit has been shoehorned in there at the last minute to try to make it a little bit more believable. It that will not own any assets outright, but will make a return on the sale of energy from the wholesale market by the principal operator of the energy schemes it latches itself on to. Well, I can see why the Labour part never put that on a leaflet—goodness me. Why is it not considered a Government trading fund? It is not a company; it is a Government trading fund that they are branding as a company. It absolutely meets all the criteria of the Government Trading Funds Act 1973, so it would be interesting to know why that is.
I do not doubt the Secretary of State’s commitment in this area. I have seen it over the past five years. I am sorry that his initial, much more ambitious plans for £28 billion have been torpedoed by the Treasury and his right hon. Friend the Chancellor. If he is feeling sorry for himself, he can speak to the millions of pensioners around these islands whose ambitions for the future have also been torpedoed by the Chancellor and the Treasury.
On a substantive note about the lack of detail in the Bill, it is a great pity that the Government want us to believe that clean energy means energy produced from sources other than fossil fuels. It is hard to imagine a more one-dimensional analysis and qualification than that. It is narrow and incoherent, and out of step with the science and the public. It does not really matter where or what carbon is locked into. If you burn it to release carbon dioxide in the process of making energy, then you are a carbon emitter contributing to the climate crisis. It is as simple as that. We should not be hostage to a technology where hundreds of millions of pounds in Government subsidies are used to create millions of tonnes of CO2 a year.
We know that subsidies for large-scale biomass generators in England will end in 2027—I know the Minister is up to speed on that—and the Government claim they are reviewing evidence on potential support beyond this. Will the Minister, in summing up, be clear with Parliament today? Does he believe that chopping down millions of trees on the other side of the world and shipping them to England, to then burn them to make electricity, is acceptable? If not, will he commit to ending public subsidies for large-scale biomass in 2027?
Sammy Wilson
I am glad to hear the hon. Gentleman is concerned about the chopping down of trees. Does he accept that in Scotland 13 million trees were chopped down to put up windmills?
Dave Doogan
I hesitate to thank the right hon. Member for his intervention—[Laughter.] I will need to fact check his 13 million figure—I will get back to him on that. But let us be really clear—I will touch on onshore wind in a minute—that once those trees are burned in a former coal-fired power station, the only products are CO2 and electricity, but where trees have been cleared to create onshore wind in Scotland, there is a lifetime of renewable, clean cheap energy coming out the other side, so it is a false comparator if ever I saw one. Do the Government believe that waste to energy is also clean energy? That does not seem to be what GB Energy should pursue, and I am not certain there is much support for that in the country.
Maybe the right hon. Gentleman should have made his intervention in a minute, because I remain unclear on this point. The Bill sets out that it applies to Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England. However, constitutionally and administratively, in policy terms I do not see how it can apply to Northern Ireland. If the Minister could update us on what possible role GB Energy has in the entirely different energy market that exists in Northern Ireland, that would be helpful.
Community energy is essential to how we make our journey to net zero, but like much else there is scant detail on that. If the Government had properly consulted the community energy sector—they can probably still do that—they would know that access to consumers is one of the principal drawbacks to developing these schemes. It is disappointing that no lateral thinking is being applied on how to connect the will to create community energy with the market. Ofgem has created an environment where one can deliver an extraordinary example of community electricity generation, but trying to connect with consumers is almost impossible. GB Energy, if it is nothing else—and it does appear to be not much else—could have been part of the gig economy. It could have been the Uber of retail energy. We could have bought community energy and passed it on to the consumer base, but that is not going to happen.
The Government want to mirror the ambition of Vattenfall or EDF, but those companies, which are actually companies, sell to the retail market. Will the Government update us on the paltry amount that the previous Government allocated to community energy? It was £10 million just for England. What will GB Energy deliver?
Pushing ahead, zonal energy is one of the most important transformations that can come into the energy market on GB. The Government advised that electricity market reform is key—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
Order. We now come to a maiden speech. I call Perran Moon.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
I call Perran Moon to make his maiden speech.
Perran Moon (Camborne and Redruth) (Lab)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to make my maiden speech during a debate that is so relevant to my own wonderful constituency of Camborne, Redruth and Hayle, in the heart of Cornwall. I come to this place—and I am disappointed that the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin) is not present to hear me say this—with 30 years of business experience in the automotive sector and, latterly, in the renewable electricity sector. I thank all those who have given their maiden speeches today; they were all truly heartfelt, wonderful speeches. My own inspiration for being here comes from my three children, my daughter and my two sons, who join us in the Public Gallery today.
I want first to pay tribute to my predecessor George Eustice for his work on animal welfare as Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, as well as his support for local projects in Cornwall such as Kresen Kernow, the Cornish archive, and—despite our profound differences on our relationship with the EU—the honourable way in which he was prepared to criticise trade arrangements made by the Conservative party.
It is an unparalleled privilege to represent one’s home constituency, and the ties that bind Cornish men and women to our homeland are woven into every sinew of our being. The constituency of Camborne, Redruth and Hayle is a truly remarkable place: the place where I was born and grew up and where I live. To understand Camborne, Redruth and Hayle, I respectfully ask you, Madam Deputy Speaker, to transport yourself in your mind to the summit of a single rocky hill, smack bang in the middle of the constituency. This rocky hill is called Carn Brea, which is, in fact, Cornish for “rocky hill”. At the summit of Carn Brea sits the Basset monument, looking down from 750 feet across the constituency. The monument was funded by public subscription in 1836 after Basset himself petitioned the other place against slavery in 1828.
To the north of Carn Brea, just 4 miles away, the Celtic sea sparkles in the sunlight and laps the beautiful beaches of Gwithian, Portreath, Porthtowan, St Agnes and Perranporth—the Celtic sea, which offers the prospect of vast quantities of electricity generated from offshore wind, an opportunity that I dearly hope this Government will grasp. Looking to the west from Carn Brea we see the town of Camborne, pronounced “Kammbronn” in Cornish, meaning “crooked hill”. It is a town that, along with its near neighbour Redruth, is synonymous with our tin mining heritage. The two towns were once among the wealthiest in Britain, helping to drive the economy for more than four centuries. Nestled in front of Camborne, a large flag of St Piran flutters in the breeze. This flag sits at the top of the South Crofty tin mine. There can be no finer physical symbol of the potential for the return of the Cornish economic powerhouse than South Crofty—the last tin mine to close, in 1998.
The economic winds have dramatically changed since then, and tin, which is used in the production of virtually every electrical device, is now also being used in the production of solar panels and, along with lithium, forms the cornerstone of our critical mineral industry. We import tin from as far afield as China and Australia, with all the damaging environmental impacts that come with such imports, yet in Camborne and Redruth we sit on the third highest-grade tin deposits in the world, and there is plenty of it. Our sense of pride in our mining heritage, which was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Jayne Kirkham), and the possibility of our tin mining renaissance are a constant source of hope and optimism for an area that has been damned by industrial decline for decades.
But back to the summit of Carn Brea and Basset’s monument. Further over to the west, on the horizon behind Camborne, is Hayle, the third largest town in the constituency. Although the official title of my constituency is Camborne and Redruth, woe betide me if I do not mention Hayle in the same breath. Hayle is a vital natural seaport, ready to serve the new opportunities in the Celtic sea, and it includes a very large estuary. Indeed, the Cornish word for estuary is hayl. I have strong familial ties with the town, where my great-uncles, the Slade family, once ran a steel engineering business on South Quay.
Let us look directly south from Carn Brea now, to the gentle rolling hills leading down through the beautiful Cornish granite villages of Stithians, Mawnan Smith and Constantine, and then on to the two stunning subtropical gardens of Glendurgan and Trebah, which, in turn, lead down to the Helford river, from where thousands of American troops set off on D-day to free Europe from fascism.
To the east of Carn Brea lies Redruth, the Cornish meaning of which is “red ford”, the Cornish word for “red” being “ruth” and the word for “ford” being “red”—obviously! Redruth is rapidly becoming a cultural hub, and I strongly recommend visits to Krowji creative hub, Kresen Kernow—the aforementioned archive centre—the Buttermarket, and the Ladder arts and culture hub. Our former prosperity is evident throughout the centre of Redruth, with imposing granite buildings that are awakening with new life after a deep slumber.
Further to the east, beyond Redruth, can be found the villages of Carharrack and St Day, which served as a hub for the one of the world’s wealthiest copper mining districts from the 16th century to the 1830s. Just beyond them is United Downs, where Cornish Lithium, Geothermal Engineering and ground source heat pump companies are based. These businesses have the potential to play key roles in Britain’s economic transformation. We have tin, lithium, geothermal and ground source heat, but we are also blessed with the opportunities of offshore wind in the Celtic sea, onshore wind, solar and tidal. There are very few places in the UK in which renewable energy and critical mineral opportunities are so abundant.
The renewable energy opportunities are not the only factors that make this land so distinct. Let me quickly give three other examples. First, 10 years ago Cornwall was granted national minority status under the European framework convention for the protection of national minorities. Our language, our culture and our heritage, as well as our economic potential, mark us out on this island. Secondly, the positive reaction received by all six Cornish MPs on both sides of the House for taking our oaths in Cornish is telling. Almost half our children and young people consider themselves first and foremost Cornish. Finally, on Saturday my brother Dickon will be made a bard of the Gorsedh, the highest honour that can be bestowed on a Cornish man or woman. This is an honour awarded to people who have given exceptional service to Cornwall by a manifestation of the Celtic spirit or by service to Cornwall.
It is these cultural differences that mark us out. It has been clear on the doorstep over the past two years that there is a strong desire for a non-mayoral model of governance arrangement with Westminster. My hope and my focus in coming weeks and months will be to persuade the Government that the most appropriate devolution arrangement for Cornwall is an Assembly similar to that of our Celtic cousins in Wales.
In terms of economic development, culture and governance, the time has come to throw open the cage door and unleash the Cornish Celtic tiger. For my part, I will put all my energies into representing the people of Camborne, Redruth and Hayle to the best of my abilities. To do so will be the honour of my life. Meur ras—thank you.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Order. Because so many Members wish to contribute, I ask those making maiden speeches to keep them shorter than five minutes if they can manage it. The time limit for Members with a bit more experience, who are not making their maiden speech, is now reduced to five minutes.
Adrian Ramsay (Waveney Valley) (Green)
I have been enjoying the maiden speeches today, particularly those of the hon. Members for Truro and Falmouth (Jayne Kirkham) and for Camborne and Redruth (Perran Moon). Having enjoyed a week’s holiday in Cornwall last week, I have enjoyed hearing even more about Cornwall today.
I am pleased to speak in this debate and to have the opportunity to welcome the Bill, particularly the commitment that it shows to achieving net zero emissions from the electricity grid by 2030. An exciting revolution in the way we produce and use energy is taking place. It is vital that there be new support and incentives to directly accelerate renewable development, giving the sector the confidence to invest and innovate that comes from the long-term predictability that we need.
The Bill is an important step in the right direction. I hope that as it progresses through Parliament, we can have a constructive debate about being even more ambitious, in line with the climate science, and, crucially, about how we take the public with us. I am sure that we will return to that subject in future discussions, but today I will highlight three particular gaps that I hope the Minister will address in his winding-up speech.
The first gap, which has already been referred to, is the opportunity to reflect that the climate and nature crises go hand in hand. I know that the Secretary of State recognises that point and recognises that renewable energy development can go hand in hand with protecting carbon-rich habitats and delivering more nature-based solutions on land and at sea, so it is disappointing that the Bill does not give Great British Energy a remit to contribute to nature’s recovery alongside accelerating the scale and pace of renewable energy delivery. A nature recovery duty would mean meeting climate targets and contributing to biodiversity targets set under the Environment Act 2021. It would mean automatically baking wildlife-friendly design into renewable energy project development from the outset. I also highlight the need to bake farming-friendly design into renewable energy developments.
The second area on which I invite the Secretary of State or the Minister to respond is the glaring and gaping hole in the proposed legislation—namely, the failure to use the opportunity to more explicitly and definitively rule out the drilling and burning of new fossil fuel projects. A net zero carbon plan has to involve ceasing to use fossil fuels, not just increasing renewables. Put simply, fossil fuels increase carbon emissions. We have heard from the UN Secretary-General that fossil fuels are literally cooking our planet, and far more needs to be done to remove their use. Although we have recently seen some encouraging developments from the Government in making it clear that they will not defend the legal challenges to, for example, the Rosebank oilfield, they could go far further, so why not use this Bill to further reduce the UK’s exposure to price volatility and households’ exposure to energy price shocks by making it crystal clear that Great British Energy will not be allowed to facilitate, encourage or participate in any projects based on fossil fuels?
The third area I want to highlight is community energy, to which other Members have drawn attention today. Like other Members, I have a community project in my constituency; it is in the village of Palgrave, where there is a community-owned wind turbine on the playing fields. I heard the Secretary of State talk about community energy earlier, so perhaps we just need clarification of the Government’s intention, but the legislation does not appear to explicitly mention community energy, despite its huge potential. I hope that this is an unintended omission, and that the Minister or the Secretary of State can confirm that there will be community energy representation on the governance structures of Great British Energy, notably from the co-operatives that are such a big part of the sector.
I put on record my support for the excellent Local Electricity Bill, which won significant support in the last Parliament. I very much hope that the proposals in it are taken forward, including by enabling renewable energy generation schemes to sell directly to local people and making sure that that is acted on without delay.
In conclusion, I welcome this Bill and commend the Government for bringing it forward. Great British Energy has the potential to make a game-changing difference, but I would welcome clarification on the level of ambition needed in the areas that I have highlighted.
Madam Deputy Speaker
Thank you for respecting the time limit. I call Dr Simon Opher to make his maiden speech.
Dr Simon Opher (Stroud) (Lab)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank the hon. Member for Waveney Valley (Adrian Ramsay) for his support for this really exciting piece of legislation—one of the most exciting in our manifesto. I am delighted to be making my maiden speech during a debate on renewable energy. Stroud has been a centre for sustainability and the environment for many years.
I thank my constituents for supporting me. I have been a GP in Dursley, which is part of Stroud, for 30 years. I have looked after my patients there through thick and thin, through the most heart-rending moments and through the most joyous moments, and it has been an absolute privilege. To be honest, I slightly miss them in this place.
I would like to pay tribute to my predecessor, Siobhan Baillie. Siobhan was always so cheerful and positive, and I really admired her for that. She also squeezed the last Government into introducing what was probably their best bit of legislation, which was about childcare. This Government are continuing that and making sure that we deliver it. People who knew Siobhan will know that she also had a lot better hair than I do. [Interruption.] Thank you very much—I will move on hastily.
I would also like to pay tribute to my Labour predecessor, David Drew, who was probably the best constituency MP I ever met. He is still very well loved in the area, and is still involved in local politics. He has given me lots of pieces of advice. One of them is to be yourself, which is good advice for all of us. I thank him for that.
My father actually said that there are quite a lot of similarities between being an MP and being a GP. He said, “First of all, both of you have surgeries, don’t you?” I thought about this more, and I thought about what I tell the doctors I train: “As a GP, you have to know the first three things about everything, which is true for MPs as well. You do not have to be an expert on anything, but you have to know a little bit about everything.” I have certainly learned a lot about that. Both GPs and MPs also need to be embedded in their community. But probably the most important thing to being a good doctor and a good MP is listening, not talking. The best doctors and the best MPs are the best listeners.
Stroud is the most beautiful area, and its hills and valleys were made famous by Laurie Lee in “Cider with Rosie”, which Members may have read. A previous GP in the area, about 200 years ago, was Dr Edward Jenner. He was in Berkeley in my constituency, and he discovered vaccination. He saved the most lives in history, so we must honour him. Vaccination is transformative for health. One of the big benefits of the pandemic is that we developed mRNA vaccines, which in the future will be used to treat cancer. This new therapy is really exciting.
Stroud is also home to cutting-edge companies, including Renishaw in the engineering industry. Ecotricity, owned by Dale Vince, has been at the cutting edge of sustainable energy for many years.
We also have the fantastic Forest Green Rovers, the world’s only carbon-neutral football club. They are also vegan. Sadly, they were relegated from the football league this year, but I promise they will be back. I hope they will be, anyway.
Dale Vince built the first wind turbine on Tinkley Lane in 1996, and there is a lesson there, because there was incredible local opposition to it for years. People did not like it, but now it has come to be accepted. This is the future. Many of us have spoken about community energy, which we have been developing in Stroud. We now have six projects. Waitrose will have solar panels on its roof, and we are going to cover the hospital with solar panels. There is a scheme to put solar panels on every public building, which will save having to put them on farmland. I recommend such schemes.
A number of my constituents are currently in prison for climate activism. Although I do not condone their protests in any way, I ask the Home Secretary to review their really excessive sentences, and I ask organisations such as Just Stop Oil to get behind us. We are the greenest Government this country has ever seen, so will they stop protesting and start building with us?
Community is really important in Stroud. We have community hubs throughout the constituency. One of the best is GL11 in Cam, run by Indigo Redfern. Its volunteers look after vulnerable people. We have the country’s oldest community agriculture scheme, and we have a big scheme that buys community shops. When pubs close in little villages, we buy them, too. We are also looking at buying land to protect it for people to use.
I worked in May Lane surgery for so long, and I praise the doctors, the nurses and all the reception staff for continuing to deliver extraordinary care to patients. General practice is delivering extraordinary care throughout the country, but we are in a certain amount of crisis. We have very low morale, and everyone is complaining about not being able to get a GP appointment, so I am proud that this Government will fix general practice by investing, innovating and making sure that patients receive the service they received in 2010.
Another thing I would like to say on innovation is that, about 25 years ago, I introduced an artist in residence at my surgery to treat patients with mental ill health, and I managed to prove that it was incredibly effective. We then expanded into green prescribing, getting people to take walks. We have poets in nursing homes, and we started prescribing allotments. These non-medical prescriptions are crucial, and they save the NHS money, because people realise they do not need medicine to make them better. The arts are crucial. We must support this country’s world-class arts sector, and we must use it to make ourselves better.
I will come to a conclusion. When I first arrived in the House, I was talking to some of the wonderful parliamentary staff who looked after new MPs so well. One of them said, “It is strange, because it is like there has been a generational change in the Commons. A wind has blown through the Commons and replaced what we had before with much younger Members”—not me, by the way—“and many more women. It is really ethnically diverse and there are LGBT people as well. It is like a fresh wind has come in.” I feel that offers a real opportunity for us to deliver real change in this country.
My father is 90. He was going to be here today, but he could not make it, which is really sad. He has been a lifelong socialist and Labour party member. He said in 2019, “I will probably never see another Labour Government,” but he has got to see one. Let us make this work and work hard to deliver renewable energy, so we can bring down the cost of power and change the whole environment of the country.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I think I was stuck on the vegan football club!
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
The first two months of this Labour Government have not been good news for electricity consumers. First, the promise to save £300 per year on bills was demoted in the King’s Speech to, “We will do it in due course.” Then, during the recess, there was the announcement that the £300 for pensioners to help with winter fuel costs would be removed because the Government placed the importance of rewarding their trade union paymasters above the needs of vulnerable pensioners.
Just this week, the Government announced they would help the big energy companies and fill their pockets with extra money, guaranteeing those energy companies prices that are currently above the market rates for electricity. The companies will be guaranteed those prices for x number of years, but if the rates change to their benefit in the future, they can change the contracts and they will be guaranteed a market for their dear electricity. Who will pay for that generosity? The consumer.
Today we are debating a Bill that sets up a quango. Despite the fact there is a £20 billion black hole in the budget, the Government can find enough money to finance a new quango. All of this will be paid for by the electricity consumer. In his impassioned speech, the Secretary of State told us that it would be impossible to envisage anybody voting against the Bill and that, in fact, the country is clamouring for it. I have to say I have not had any constituents hammering on my door telling me, “Be there on Thursday, Sammy, and vote for this Bill.” In fact, I suspect if many members of the public were asked about GB Energy, they would probably think it is a new drink rather than some important Government Bill.
The Government have promised that they will create 17,000 new jobs in Northern Ireland, even though, as the hon. Member for Angus and Perthshire Glens (Dave Doogan) pointed out, the constitutional jurisdiction of the Bill does not even cover Northern Ireland. If one considers the Windsor framework and the fact that Northern Ireland is still under single market rules, many of the provisions in the Bill and the subsidies the Government are claiming could not be applied in Northern Ireland. Will the Minister confirm what role the Bill will have in Northern Ireland?
The Government’s main point is that the creation of Great British Energy will bring down prices for electricity consumers. The fact is that this Bill is all about having to spend money on new infrastructure to generate power well away from the centres of population, as well as putting in infrastructure to take that power to the consumer. That will require billions of pounds of investment. The Government say it will be done by the private sector, as if that solves it all. Of course, if the private sector puts in that investment, it will require a return. Where will that return come from? It will come from the consumer.
We already know, as it has been pointed out, that, according to Ofgem, two thirds of people’s electricity costs in the first quarter of this year were as a result of non-fuel costs. They included the cost of the infrastructure, the environmental policies, and the administration and the operating costs of the grid. Extending the grid, which we will have to do, will incur further costs and put up the price of electricity. That is why the Minister could not guarantee that the £300 saving will be delivered. He knows that the massive costs of changing our system will be borne by the electricity consumer. Whether we regard net zero as good or bad, let us not hide from the fact that it will cost people right across society. It will lead to industry facing higher costs, and consumers facing higher costs and greater fuel poverty.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I call Michelle Scrogham to make her maiden speech.
Michelle Scrogham (Barrow and Furness) (Lab)
I am grateful to be making my maiden speech in this debate on the Great British Energy Bill. Given my constituency’s links to energy production at the Morecambe Bay gasfields, it is in a unique position to be a leader in clean green energy with offshore wind and tidal power. Spirit Energy has ambitious plans to convert our depleted gasfields and onshore terminal into a world-class carbon storage cluster. This project will support our net zero ambitions, along with providing thousands of highly skilled green jobs in Cumbria, supporting the transition from oil and gas. The plan will bring a multi-billion-pound investment locally, promoting growth and further regional investment that will assist us in making our local economy more sustainable.
I congratulate all those who have made their maiden speeches today, including my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Dr Opher). It has been inspiring to witness so many incredible maiden speeches over the past few months. It has been fascinating to hear those gems of information about people and places, as Members speak about their constituencies with such passion, and the many varied paths and often moving stories that have brought them to this House.
I pay tribute to my predecessor, Simon Fell. We disagreed on many matters over the years, but his commitment to BAE Systems and the nuclear deterrent was clear and something on which we could both very much agree. His kind and generous advice during the election campaign was gratefully received and I would encourage everyone in this House to behave in a similar manner.
I wish my grandma could be here to see me today, as she would, like the rest of my family, be bursting with pride. She would no doubt remind me of the time that she took me to the cinema when I was a toddler. I had decided to make myself comfortable, so I kicked off my shoes to watch the film. Part way through, I climbed off my seat and, with instant regret, found that I had stepped on an ice cream lid. The cold and sticky ice cream quickly seeped through my socks. So angry was four-year-old me that I turned to face the whole audience, and, with hands on hips, loudly demanded to know who was responsible, declaring that whoever it was should come and pick it up. My grandma was understandably mortified by my outburst during the film, and it was 20 years before she confessed that it was her ice cream lid.
I could not be prouder to be not only the first local to be elected as MP for Barrow and Furness, but the first ever female to hold this very privileged position. I started my career in banking way back in the ’80s, but found very quickly that my passion would take me elsewhere. With an insuppressible drive to call out injustice, my mouth soon ensured that I was elected as our union rep, and within a couple of years I was asked to take on that role for the north-west region. I will never forget how I felt when my manager took me aside to tell me that, if I accepted that responsibility, I could kiss goodbye to my career in banking. I did not need time to think about it; I took the job. There is nothing in this world more likely to make me dig my heels in than a bully.
My constituency is well known for many things. We have been world leaders in ironworks, with the founders of Barrow exporting railways to the world. They understood that, for a secure economy, we needed more than one industry and created the jute manufacturing business that became a world leader in its own right. The ironworks eventually became a shipyard where we now build our nuclear deterrent, the most complex piece of engineering on the planet, and we are the only place in the UK that is capable of doing that. We protect our nation—a source of great pride to us locally—with the industry that is the backbone of the economy in Barrow and Furness, and many other towns across the UK, in a supply chain of tens of thousands of jobs.
Our coastline is home to many areas of natural beauty and protected habitats—from Ravenglass, where people can explore on a mini steam train, visit Muncaster Castle with its rich history and birds of prey, or enjoy the truly unspoiled area that is the western Lake district; all the way down to Walney Island nature reserve, with its adorable grey seals and stunning views, not least of which is its view of the island of Piel, which hosts its own king no less. Tradition holds that the landlord of the sole pub, while sitting in an ancient chair, carrying a sword and wearing a helmet, is crowned by the pouring of alcohol over their head. Shout out to John Murphy, our local historian and former Mayor of Burrow, for his fantastic walking tours to Piel.
Morecambe bay and the Duddon estuaries are our playgrounds, and my hometown of Ulverston, which earlier this year was reported to be one of the most vibrant towns in the UK, is known as the festival town, and has well and truly earned its title. There are festivals for everything from walking, Walkfest, to printing, Printfest; comedy and music, with a tenuous link to Laurel and Hardy’s “Another Fine Mess”, Finefest; and my favourite, the one I help to organise each year, Dickensian. The hashtag for that one made headline news in Japan, and I will leave Members to work it out for themselves. [Laughter.]
I have been incredibly lucky that I was able to take time out when my children were little and build a business on the high street with my sister. Those 20 years, through recessions, online shopping, out-of-town retail and covid, were a steep learning curve, but one that I would not change for the world. Our high streets are one of my passions. They are the very heart of our communities and Britain’s biggest employer—worthy of nurturing, protecting and revitalising. I very much welcome our plans and the opportunity to support them in this Government.
We have many famous sons and daughters from Barrow and Furness. Stan Laurel, comedy giant and half of the duo Laurel and Hardy, was born in Ulverston. My apologies to my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Sam Rushworth); his town has been trying to claim Stan Laurel for years, but he was definitely an Ulverston lad. Dalton, the ancient capital of Furness, was birthplace and early home of famous painter George Romney, and Tommy Johnson, the third-highest goal scorer for Man City, who made five appearances for England and scored in every single match. That might be a bit too far back for most to remember, because he was born in 1901, but other Barrow-born football heroes are Emlyn Hughes, whose statue now graces Abbey Road in Barrow, and Georgia Stanway, who I believe is now overdue her own statue for her achievements in the England squad. While we are on football, I have to say good luck to the Barrow Bluebirds in their upcoming match against Chelsea—you have great football genes on your side, so let’s have it!
Sir John Barrow, famous son of Ulverston, became the second secretary to the admiralty—to you and me, that is in charge of the Navy. He wrote the report that became the basis for what we now know as the mutiny on the Bounty. He was the last man to shake Lord Nelson’s hand as he departed on HMS Victory for Trafalgar, and was a great promotor of Arctic voyages of discovery, with many places around the globe now named after him, including Barrow strait, Cape Barrow and Point Barrow in Alaska, but oddly not Barrow-in-Furness.
I have fought long and hard to give a voice to our residents as their councillor and mayor, and I have often been angered by decisions that cost our communities dearly. Next week, our Lib Dem council will decide the fate of one of the busiest libraries in Cumbria—the last remaining community space that is free to use, where many community groups ensure that a vital safety net is provided, and where no matter what someone’s background or financial position is, they have a safe place to learn and achieve. I hope that the council will listen to the 3,000-plus people who have signed a petition to save it, and decide to work with me and local businesses to secure its future.
Our local community groups and third sector organisations have proved vital in recent years, and I am a strong believer that most problems have a solution at grassroots level, through community groups such as the Roxy Collective, Drop Zone, Women’s Community Matters, the Ulverston Resilience Group, Community Solutions, and Furness Refugee Support to name just a few—or Love Barrow Families, whose work is so life changing for some that they return as volunteers to give that same gift to others. In my role as MP for Barrow and Furness, I want to give their voice more power. I want to bring community groups together with residents and businesses, big and small, as that is how community works at its best, for the betterment of everyone in it.
Many MPs make unique claims in their maiden speeches. If I was a gambling woman, I would bet that I am the only MP to be married to a lighthouse keeper—I am hoping the weather is okay back home, because he is sat in the Gallery now. [Laughter.] My better half is the senior lighthouse keeper in charge of the Sir John Barrow monument, a copy of the Eddystone lighthouse that stands on top of Hoad hill and welcomes the people of Furness home.
Finally, I encourage all hon. Members to come and visit Barrow and Furness—but with a fair warning that several of them will, of course, feel obliged to return to this Chamber and correct the record on which is the best constituency.
Richard Tice (Boston and Skegness) (Reform)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (Michelle Scrogham) on that excellent speech. The vision of a landlord with a sword serving alcohol is an interesting one. I also congratulate the others who have made maiden speeches, and in particular the hon. Member for Northampton South (Mike Reader). Northampton South is where I grew up and first went to school, and I am still a passionate supporter of the Northampton Saints.
I have long been a critic of the excessive levels of overseas ownership of our key public utilities thanks to the failures of the previous Conservative regimes. Some 80% of our offshore wind industry is overseas-owned, so I have some sympathy, the House may be surprised to hear, with some of the aims and ambitions of GB Energy. Indeed, it may be that the Secretary of State was listening to me a couple of years ago when I talked about this issue.
In the spirit of being constructive and helpful to the Minister and the Secretary of State, I wish to put forward a couple of suggestions. My model of joint-venture partial public ownership of monopoly, critical public utilities is a 50:50 model. In opening the debate, the Secretary of State referred to the Danish company Ørsted, which is 50% owned by the state and 50% owned primarily by pension funds with private sector management. That is a win-win joint venture. I urge the Secretary of State and the Minister, when they make investments through GB Energy, to focus almost exclusively on 50:50 joint ventures in which the other 50% should be private sector investment, preferably from British pension funds on behalf of British pensioners. That way we will get the best of all worlds, with the quality of private sector management, because the truth is that Governments can be good at funding things but are generally very bad at managing things. I therefore urge the Secretary of State and the Minister, when they consider the investments to be made through GB Energy, to adopt the model of investing only up to 50% and always ensuring that there is private sector investment alongside.
Of course, the Secretary of State passionately believes that renewable energy will be cheaper, so he should have no problem at all with inserting into the conditions for investment a requirement for confirmation that within the business plan for investments there is a clear goal for the investment to result in cheaper energy for British consumers and taxpayers. I urge the Secretary of State and the Minister to adopt that 50% restriction and consider the need for private sector investment.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I call Noah Law to make his maiden speech.
Noah Law (St Austell and Newquay) (Lab)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to make this, my first speech to the House. It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness (Michelle Scrogham).
It is the honour of my life to have the chance to represent St Austell and Newquay, the stunning heartland of Cornwall that touches both of our beautiful coastlines and that has so greatly shaped my life. That ranges from the springboard that I was given at Fowey community college, to learning to play the violin in Par and to ride the waves at Newquay, or by inspiring me to craft a career in financing the kind of natural resources that we are fortunate to have there—I am always available with that experience for Opposition Members who cannot quite spot it—and as a campaigner these past few years, where I have heard so many inspiring voices that helped me to build the grassroots platform that brought me to this House. It is with deep gratitude that I take my place here, mindful of the trust and responsibility placed in me by the people of St Austell and Newquay.
I pay tribute to my predecessor, Steve Double, for the work that he did for St Austell and Newquay during his five years in office. Steve was a hard-working MP who championed, among many other things, the Cornish railways and Cornwall’s pioneering model of tri-service safety officers, both of which I look forward to taking up with vigour.
St Austell bay, Newquay and the clay country that lies in between mean that we are perhaps the most diverse and therefore representative of Cornish seats. From the tributaries of the White river that shipped our clay to the world, down on the eastern side from Roche, Bugle, Stenalees, Penwithick, Trethurgy and Tregrehan, down past St Blazey and Tywardreath to the great harbours of Par, Charlestown, Mevagissey, Fowey and its peninsula, and to the numerous namesakes of St Columba and her parish, Quintrell Downs, St Colan and the village and parish of St Enoder, with Summercourt, Fraddon and Indian Queens. In the west, we have St Stephen-in-Brannel, Grampound, Creed, St Ewe, Sticker, Polgooth, Trewoon, Lanjeth, Foxhole, Nanpean, Treviscoe, St Dennis and Whitemoor—to name a few.
With such a patchwork of ancient settlements across this powerhouse of the Cornish economy, the House will forgive me for seldom referring to the constituency as rural, despite our wealth of prime farmland that feeds our Cornish nation, Britain and beyond. Not only does St Austell and Newquay feature well-known agrifood, beverage and tourism industries; it is also the industrial heartland of Cornwall, boasting many of the industries we need to build a greener future, including renewables, critical minerals and the supply chain that sits behind them. Our constituency stands as a testament to Cornwall’s resilience and ingenuity, blending traditional industries with modern innovation, and I am committed to ensuring that this balance continues to flourish, so we can ensure that this once powerhouse of the Cornish economy is restored.
Beyond our unique economic challenges and opportunities, which demand a right to local decision making, we have a distinct Celtic heritage, language and national minority status, and a national pride: a pride that is inclusive, whether of families resident here for generations, those of proud northern stock or Windrush stock—or all of the above, like my own family—or those who have chosen to make their home in Cornwall more recently. Cornwall’s heritage is not just a relic of the past but a living, breathing part of our identity, shaping our values and aspirations as a community. It is therefore vital that we preserve and promote that heritage for future generations, ensuring that it remains a cornerstone of our cultural and social fabric.
This new parliamentary Session under the Labour Government offers real promise, and I am particularly pleased that they will deliver the largest increase in social homes in a generation. That will change lives, particularly the lives of my generation and the next, and give hope to those who never had it. It is also important to ensure that the right kind of homes are built, and that local people can afford to live and work in Cornwall—a reality that has long been impossible because of the vicious cycle of low wages and housing unaffordability. I will work tirelessly to ensure that Cornwall’s interests are represented and the voices of my constituents are heard at the highest levels of Government, and I will advocate policies that will bring tangible benefits to our people.
I am entering Parliament alongside three other Cornish Labour MPs, who reflect a sea change in the political landscape there. With Cornish Labour MPs in a Labour Government, I am thrilled to provide the strong voice in Westminster that we have so seldom had. But our political culture remains consistent: in people’s rightful expectation of our service; in our egalitarianism; and in our healthy scepticism towards established politics and the centralisation of power, whether that be in Westminster, in single individuals or in out-of-touch bureaucracies that fail to deliver for working people.
In that spirit, I pledge to serve with integrity, to listen to all voices within our community and to champion the values that make Cornwall so special, ensuring that our future is as bright and prosperous as our history is rich and storied. No more shifting the deckchairs: we are going to get Cornwall building again—to a blueprint built of the voices of those who put me here.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I call Angus MacDonald to make his maiden speech.
Mr Angus MacDonald (Inverness, Skye and West Ross-shire) (LD)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. That was a very heartfelt speech from the hon. Member for St Austell and Newquay (Noah Law). Cornwall and the highlands of Scotland share our westerly reaches and Celtic background.
I am very proud to have been elected to serve the people of the west highlands and Inverness in this Parliament. Following the Electoral Commission’s mistaken decision to cut the number of highland constituencies from three to two, I have, to a large extent, replaced two former MPs in Ian Blackford and Drew Hendry, who represented to the best of their ability Ross, Skye and Lochaber, and Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey respectively.
To say that my constituency is geographically challenging would be an understatement. It takes four hours to drive from east to west and from north to south. The highlands of Scotland are bountiful in their beauty—from the miles of sandy beaches in Gairloch and Lochaber, the mountains of Ben Nevis, and the Skye Cuillins and Torridon, to the castles of Urquhart on Loch Ness and Eilean Donan in Wester Ross. Our oaks and Scots pine trees are bent over as a result of the prevailing westerly wind. We have beautiful lochs and large, powerful rivers around every bend in the road.
Astonishing though the beauty is, it is the people of the highlands that I—like my amazing predecessor Charles Kennedy—love and am delighted to represent. Although the highlands are beautiful and the people wonderful, the region struggles financially. The Highland council is burdened with debts of £1.2 billion. Inverness’s population has increased rapidly, but the three-and-a-half hour drive from our highland capital to Scotland’s capital is not dualled and is not safe. The rural west faces severe fuel poverty, long journeys for NHS treatment, public service cuts, and a lack of essential services, with many young people leaving for cities.
Would it not be wonderful if a fairy godmother came along and bestowed a wonderful asset on the highlands—something that generated serious money for the area over generations, and a long-term provider of great employment? There is such an asset. The west highlands is the wettest area in Europe, and the wind is virtually unceasing. We have the most fantastic land to benefit from the move to renewables. That opportunity has not gone unnoticed: utilities and infrastructure firms from all over the world are queueing up to install 200-metre-high wind turbines on our hills; our hydro schemes are getting upgraded; and there are £5 billion pump storage sites at various stages of development in my constituency. Major construction projects abound across the highlands. Thousands of workers are brought in and accommodated in temporary modular housing.
Peak electricity use in Scotland is 3 GW, while our peak production is 10 to 14 GW. Scotland may add as much as another 10 GW of production capacity by 2030. We will be producing seven times more electricity than we use. Like for prospectors to a gold rush, the rich opportunities are accompanied by challenges. There are two important issues to which we need to pay attention. First, there is a cost to that for the highlands: the industrialisation of our countryside. What was a beautiful view of the mountains is now rows of 200-metre-high whirling turbines, and large new pylons marching across the country to the cities, where the demand is. Secondly, what is in it for the locals? The turbines and generators are manufactured overseas, the developer and utilities firms are from outwith the UK, and the workers are shipped in. Last year, our total community benefit from that multibillion-pound industry was an estimated £9.1 million in the highlands, and £26.4 million across Scotland as a whole. It should be a multiple of those figures. We in the highlands pay 50% more for electricity connection than people in the south of England, yet increasingly, the highlands is where that electricity is generated. The Government are releasing the restrictions on onshore wind farms in England, so what is an issue for Scotland now will become an issue for many rural areas across Great Britain.
What can be done about this? I propose that 5% of revenue from all newly consented renewable energy generated both onshore and offshore should be paid to community benefit funds. For onshore projects, two thirds of that should be paid to the affected council ward, with one third paid to a council infrastructure fund; for offshore projects, all of that 5% of gross revenue should go to council infrastructure funds. Existing renewable projects over 1 MW should pay 2%, as per the split already outlined. For transmission lines and substations, the Irish have an excellent community benefit plan that we can learn from—I would like the energy Minister to listen to this, rather than do his emails. The Norwegians handled the revenue from the North sea oil boom well, and their sovereign wealth fund is now valued at $1.7 trillion. Britain saved nothing, and we are in real danger of repeating that mistake with the renewables bonanza.
I close by saying there is considerable disadvantage to the people of rural Britain in taking on the downsides of hosting our move from a carbon-based economy to a renewable electric alternative. It is only fair that we make it beneficial to the people affected. It is great that the Great British Energy Bill will be further strengthened to include enabling community energy—that is really important.
Finally, Inverness is the centre of onshore and offshore wind, the existing hydropower industry, and massive pump storage projects. I am glad that GB Energy is going to be headquartered in Scotland, and I believe Inverness would be the right place for it. Irrespective of that, one of its first jobs should be to look at my proposals and to ensure that the benefits of Scotland’s renewables can be properly shared, because this is an opportunity that we cannot afford to miss.
Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Inverness, Skye and West Ross-shire (Mr MacDonald). I congratulate him on that excellent speech. In particular, when he speaks of Charles Kennedy, who is still tremendously missed in this place, he speaks of a political giant we all reflect on very fondly. It is also a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Noah Law), who I also congratulate on an excellent speech.
I speak today in support of a Bill that has the potential to be a real game-changer in the fight to decarbonise our energy supply. I applaud my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on his determination in bringing this Bill before the House so soon after the general election. It is hugely encouraging that the Government have got straight on with the business of setting up GB Energy, following hot on the heels of the excellent auction that we heard about just this week. GB Energy’s task—working hand in hand with the private sector to power an ambitious expansion of renewable energy—is a crucial one. The task of decarbonising our energy supply could not be more urgent. Scientists have made it clear that the warming of our climate due to carbon emissions is having disastrous consequences that are already being felt. We are not heading towards a climate emergency: we are already living in one.
We should reject the voices that say that China’s growth means that anything we do is futile. That is an excuse never to take the steps needed to decarbonise. Of course, there is a role for international negotiation and bringing pressure to bear on other nations, but we do that more convincingly when our own house is in order. That is why I am so pleased to support GB Energy. We have also seen the danger of being reliant on other nations for our energy security. Energy supply chains are increasingly fraught with geopolitical tensions and, in the case of Russia’s senseless invasion of Ukraine, outright conflicts. That lays bare just how vulnerable we can be when we cannot provide for ourselves. Make no mistake, energy security is national security.
We should benefit from the great natural riches this country is endowed with, yet the last Government’s inconsistency of approach detracted from the investment in renewable energy that we need. From the ban on onshore wind to the downgrading of feed-in tariffs and the disastrous, failed contracts for difference round 5 auction, the renewables sector has not previously had a consistent partner to maximise the potential for renewable energy.
Dave Doogan
I am fully aligned with the hon. Member’s priority for national security in energy not to rely on other nations. Of course, within the UK, Scotland generates vastly more energy than we can consume. Although we are in the same state—in the United Kingdom—Scotland is a different country and a different nation. Does he think it is appropriate that Scotland should reap no benefit whatsoever from its energy endowment relative to anywhere else on these islands?
Mr Perkins
I do not recognise the hon. Gentleman’s description at all. We are part of a United Kingdom, and we all make contributions and we all receive benefits. The people of Scotland were given an option to vote to leave, and they chose not to. I know that is a result he bitterly regrets, but that is the choice the people of Scotland made. It is absolutely true that Scotland produces a large amount of renewable energy and of energy more generally, and it also gets many other benefits in many other ways. That is why I suspect the number of Members on the Benches next to him is so much smaller than it was previously, because people have recognised, overall, the benefits of being part of this great Union.
As I say, we should benefit from the great natural riches that his country is endowed with, but the previous Government’s approach withheld those opportunities. What today’s Bill offers, alongside the astonishingly successful round 6 auction, is a strong signal that the new Government are taking the generation of renewable energy far more seriously. It is imperative that the sector knows it has a Government who are a reliable partner, without constant knee-jerk changes in policy: not a pushover or a Government who give away taxpayers’ money thoughtlessly, but one setting out a fair and reliable basis for firms to invest.
Alongside the imperative to reduce emissions and bills, GB Energy can be crucial for our economy. I am pleased that the Government have announced that GB Energy will be headquartered in Scotland. Scotland is proportionately the leading nation in the UK for renewable power. However, I caution the Secretary of State not to ignore the contribution of coalfield communities such as those that he and I represent. In north Derbyshire and across the north midlands and south Yorkshire coalfields, communities that were created to power the nation with coal from the dawn of the industrial revolution should be central to the Government’s thinking in this arena.
This Government have laid down demanding targets to double energy generated by onshore wind farms, triple solar power and quadruple offshore wind. Those objectives are a vital part of decarbonising the grid by 2030, but we should not be in any doubt about the challenge they represent. There are still many legitimate questions about the operation of this new enterprise and where the balance will sit between being a conduit to private investment and being a provider in its own right, but criticism of the Bill from Opposition Members has been wildly overblown. The truth is that this small Bill is introducing the company—it is not the entire energy policy of this Government—and much of the criticism has been fanciful. However, I would be interested to know from my hon. Friend the Minister how the new company will work across Government to unlock the planning system while taking communities along with us.
I am extremely pleased to speak in support of this Bill, and I will be voting for it with great enthusiasm. Yes, there is lots more work to do, but this Government have made a damn good start.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I call Ann Davies to make her maiden speech.
Ann Davies (Caerfyrddin) (PC)
Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lefarydd—thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr Perkins), to hear so many maiden speeches here today—especially from our fellow Celts in Cornwall and, of course, the hon. Member for Clwyd East (Becky Gittins)—and to contribute to this important debate. The climate crisis and the need to decarbonise our energy generation are among the most pressing challenges of our time, and how we choose to respond will shape the future of all our communities, including those in Carmarthenshire I have the privilege to represent.
I am deeply honoured to have been elected to represent the newly formed constituency of Caerfyrddin, which was created from the previous seats of Carmarthen East and Dinefwr, and of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire. Although new in this Parliament, the constituency has historical roots, having existed under similar boundaries between 1918 and 1997.
I would first like to pay tribute to my immediate predecessors, Jonathan Edwards and Simon Hart. Jonathan served our community diligently for 14 years, demonstrating the essence of being a constituency MP, which is to work hard, serve all and be rooted within our communities. Simon also served for 14 years with dedication, and I acknowledge that to the western parts of Caerfyrddin.
Our constituency has a proud history, and it is impossible to speak of it without mentioning Gwynfor Evans, who won the seat back in 1966 as the first ever Plaid Cymru MP. His victory was a watershed moment for Welsh nationalism, and I am acutely aware that I would not be standing here today without Gwynfor, so his name might make a few appearances in this speech. It is in part thanks to him, and those who worked alongside him, that Plaid Cymru today represents our highest ever proportion of Welsh seats in this esteemed organisation, and we do not take that responsibility lightly. It is also thanks to Gwynfor that today we are able to take the oath of allegiance in Welsh, and in Cornish as was mentioned earlier, within this establishment. He was the first MP to attempt to do so in 1966, and was rebuked by the then Speaker. We have, of course, moved on since those days.
I also want briefly to mention Megan Lloyd George, who was the first female MP for Carmarthen—I am the second—between 1957 and 1966. It was a surreal moment, on the morning that I was sung off from the train station in Caerfyrddin, to find when we landed in Paddington that I was on the Megan Lloyd George train.
In many respects, Caerfyrddin is a microcosm of Wales. We have the lush green Tywi, Taf and Teifi valleys, rich in natural beauty, and to the south and east we have a proud industrial heritage with the coalmines of Cwm Gwendraeth and Dyffryn Aman. Those communities, like so many across Wales, still bear the scars of that industrial past—poor housing, low-paid work, and poor health outcomes are legacies that we must all address. We are all too aware of the effects that that extractive economy has had on Wales. Our land produced vast mineral wealth, yet much of the economic benefit was extracted for the profit of others, leaving our communities to bear the human cost.
Renewable energy now presents an historic opportunity for the Welsh economy, similar to the role that coal once played. However, I fear that history has little regard to our communities, and is in danger of repeating itself. Under this Government’s Great British Energy Bill, private companies will be encouraged to build wind farms and develop tidal energy, solar, hydropower and carbon capture projects under leasing agreements with the Crown Estate.
Let us mention the Crown Estate for a moment—a company that holds assets in Wales valued at more than £853 million in 2023. Despite having powers over Welsh natural resources, the Welsh Government have no powers over the Crown Estate, so the profits from leasing to private companies go straight to the UK Treasury, with a cut for the royal family. Those powers were devolved to our friends in Scotland in 2017, so why not to Wales? The large often multinational companies that the Government will be encouraging to lead development under GB Energy will mean, yet again, profits flowing out of Wales, with little gain for our communities. Ironically, some of those companies are state-owned enterprises, but it is citizens of other nations who will benefit, rather than our own.
I mentioned the lush valleys that I represent, the Teifi and Tywi. Under the current plans of Green GEN Cymru and Bute Energy, a 90 km long, 132 kV dual circuit overhead line is being proposed, which has been met with widespread local resistance. Local people are passionately in favour of decarbonisation, but we simply ask that the Welsh Government’s policy is implemented, which is that,
“electricity transmission cables should be placed underground where possible, not just in designated landscapes but where possible.”
We know that undergrounding is already commonplace in many European countries, particularly using developing cable plough technology. The UK and Welsh Governments should be placing greater emphasis on developers incorporating such undergrounding into their proposals. Landowners across the Tywi and Teifi valleys are prepared to allow access to land if an undergrounding commitment is made by Green GEN Cymru. Unfortunately, despite many attempts by me and others, the company refuses to make that commitment. It would undoubtedly save developers time and money if they would just fully engage meaningfully with our communities.
In his maiden speech, Gwynfor Evans described Carmarthenshire as
“a county of very great natural wealth”.—[Official Report, 26 July 1966; Vol. 732, c. 1499.]
He said it was home to the only anthracite coalfield in Britain, steelworks and ports, and that it had vast agricultural potential, but he added that people
“see no evidence of this prosperity. What they see is mines closing, railways closing, steel workers being made redundant”—
as we have now—
“and a decline in agriculture.”—[Official Report, 26 July 1966; Vol. 732, c. 1498.]
It was as true then as it is today. Rural depopulation remains an impending crisis in Caerfyrddin.
I was born and raised in Llanarthne. I have moved only four miles in my entire life. I farmed there. I have a tenanted dairy farm unit with my husband Gareth, who is up in the Gallery with my family and friends. I am a mother of three daughters and a mamgu of seven. I know I do not look it—you all should have jumped in there. You lost your opportunity, boys.
I am all too aware of the shift among many of those in our younger generations away from agriculture, with many moving to cities to work. If we allow global corporations to treat Wales as a playground for their activities, without ensuring that local communities benefit economically, socially and ecologically, we only exacerbate the depopulation of our countryside. We have already seen large international corporations buying up farmland in Carmarthenshire to plant trees to offset their own carbon footprints, but without changing any of their commercial practices. That is not the path to a sustainable future for our communities, and it is not the path towards food security or the best use of land. We need legislation that ensures that local communities derive the greatest benefits from renewable energy investments.
Climate action cannot succeed while we continue to encourage an extractive economy, and it is our responsibility to develop our rural economy to be locally focused. That creates well-paid jobs for local people and regenerates wealth within our communities. As the Member for Caerfyrddin, I want to see a different economic model for Wales that is locally owned, where the benefits are retained within our communities and where development is driven not solely for profit, but for the wellbeing of our people. We should adopt a distributed, decentralised model of energy generation that spreads ownership and benefits broadly across our communities. Those two aspects—ownership and benefit—must go hand in hand.
To return to Gwynfor’s words from his maiden speech, he said that
“the Welsh are beginning to take their country as seriously as the English take their country and as seriously as the Danes and Swedes take their countries.”—[Official Report, 26 July 1966; Vol. 732, c. 1498.]
Thanks to Gwynfor and the foundation he laid, the people of Wales take their country seriously. We have our own lawmaking Parliament, and our two languages—Welsh and English—officially have full equal status in public life. There is much we can still do and much we can learn from other nations. Denmark has rooted its decarbonisation efforts in local ownership, which has accelerated its progress, because it has garnered widespread public support. In Denmark, there has been a legal requirement since 2009 for at least 20% of renewable energy projects to be offered to local ownership. The Institute of Welsh Affairs has recently suggested a similar threshold of around 15% as a minimum for Wales. That is the kind of forward thinking that we need.
During the election campaign, many people kept saying to me, “You’re not a normal politician.” My response was, “Why aren’t I? I am a mam, a mamgu, a farmer, a business owner—running a children’s nursery that we started from scratch—a former teacher and a lecturer. And there isn’t a training module for this job, is there? It’s just life experience.” I am determined in this new role to show women in Carmarthenshire that we all belong in the rooms where decisions are taken, absolutely.
I carry with me the voices of those who have been overlooked for far too long: farmers who toil the land; families who strive for a better future; and communities who deserve far more than crumbs from the table. The path forward must be one where Wales controls its own destiny, where the wealth of our natural resources enriches our people and where the decisions that shape our future are made not in boardrooms far away but by the very people who live and work in our communities. That is how we will ensure protection for our environment and our society for the years to come. Diolch yn fawr.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I call Elaine Stewart to make her maiden speech.
Elaine Stewart (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)
I begin by congratulating the previous speaker, the hon. Member for Caerfyrddin (Ann Davies), on making an excellent maiden speech. I also congratulate all new Members who have made interesting and inspiring contributions today. I am delighted to be making my maiden speech as part of the debate on the Great British Energy Bill. GB Energy will, of course, be headquartered in Scotland. With clean energy infrastructure already in place and the workforce to match, Ayrshire would be an ideal setting. However, regardless of where it is located, GB Energy will create thousands of jobs and deliver energy security and lower prices for consumers throughout the UK.
As it is customary, it is right that I pay tribute to my direct predecessor, Allan Dorans, who served his constituents well through the last five years. Politics aside, it is important to acknowledge the hard work and dedication that is asked of us elected Members. We carry out our duties and represent all constituents to the best of our ability. In his maiden speech, my predecessor said he hoped that voters in Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock would never again elect an MP to go to Westminster. On that point, I am glad to say he was wrong.
I also pay tribute to my Labour predecessor, Sandra Osborne. Sandra was the first Labour and first woman MP for Ayr from 1997 until 2015. Sandra was an outstanding MP and is still remembered fondly by many throughout the constituency. I also pay tribute to her predecessor as MP for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley, George Foulkes, who now sits in the other place as Lord Foulkes of Cumnock.
Madam Deputy Speaker, allow me to say a few words about my constituency of Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock. It runs all the way from Pinwherry to my beloved Dalmellington, with many rural and coastal towns and villages in between. Ayr is the county town of Ayrshire and hosts vital services such as Ayr university hospital and the University of the West of Scotland campuses, as well as a first-class racecourse that hosts the Scottish grand national.
The constituency is also famous as the birthplace of Scotland’s national bard, Robert Burns. Robert Burns is a global icon. His poems and songs are renowned across the world. It would be difficult to pin Burns down on his politics, but our shared admiration for the red, red rose fills me with quiet confidence.
Carrick lies to the south of the constituency. Maybole and the seaside town of Girvan both look out on to the Ailsa Craig—yes, I have an island, too. Ailsa Craig is famous for granite, which is quarried to make curling stones worldwide. There is a joke that Scottish women make champion curlers because they are used to sweeping around dead weights.
Cumnock and Doon Valley consists of former mining areas, and Cumnock was a home to Keir Hardie, the founder of the Labour party. When critics take a pop at the Labour party, they say, “Keir Hardie would turn in his grave.” They do not realise that he was, in fact, cremated in Maryhill in Glasgow. A fine marble bust of Keir Hardie sits outside Cumnock town hall. It is a popular spot for a photo for leading Labour figures visiting the area. Even Michael Portillo felt obliged to have his picture taken for his travel documentary. He, too, will be happy that this Government have been so quick to act to improve the great British railways.
When hon. Members decide to travel to my constituency, they will also find the magnificent Dumfries House in Cumnock. Saved by an intervention in 2007 from the Prince of Wales, now His Majesty King Charles, the project has developed much-needed educational, research and employment opportunities across the area, with great success.
There are many gems to be found across the constituency. However, my fond memories are of growing up in a small village called Dalmellington and being born and raised in Bellsbank, as part of a scheme built to house the miners moving into the area. Picnics at the spectacular Loch Doon, pit parties with all the miners’ weans and playing kerby in the street—it was a simple life, but filled with joy. I am the proud daughter of a miner and an NHS worker. Given that, I was delighted to stand on a manifesto to end the injustice of the mineworkers’ pension scheme, and I was proud to ask about that very issue in my first question to the Government yesterday.
As the youngest of four siblings, times were tough growing up in our house—it was a case of first up, best dressed. These humble beginnings make my journey to this place even more remarkable. The journey was made easier by my two beautiful children, who have supported me all the way. My friends keep me grounded every day, and I thank them for that. I have always been keen to push and challenge myself, which is why I decided at the age of 18 to move to New York, where I worked as an au pair. If someone had told my younger self where I would be standing today, I simply would not have believed it. The odds were stacked against me—back then, the glass ceilings were still very much in place. Around that time, I assume a young Kamala Harris felt the same.
Thankfully, progress has been made. I am thrilled to sit as an MP in this place alongside a record number of women. I am thrilled to see a Government with a record number of women in Cabinet. I am thrilled that this Government have appointed the first female Chancellor in history. Yes, progress has been made. In November, I am sure that the whole House will welcome the prospect of yet another glass ceiling being smashed in the world of politics.
I returned from the United States to become a youth worker. Through my work in the third sector, on projects such as the Zone initiative and the Coalfields Regeneration Trust, I have supported communities to help them flourish. Over the years, I have worked tirelessly in those communities to give children and young people the opportunity to socialise and to champion them. It is about providing vital training and employment opportunities to deprived areas. My work in this place and in my constituency will continue in the same vein, as it always has—supporting communities through public service. My direct experience of how local communities are suffering is exactly why I am standing here today. The chance to change the lives of people, who are often vulnerable and feeling left behind, is a passion that lies deep in my soul.
I will end with this: the day before his tragic, untimely death, the late leader of the Labour party John Smith ended his last speech by saying:
“The opportunity to serve our country—that is all we ask.”
I promise to serve my constituency to the best of my ability.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I call Anna Sabine to make her maiden speech.
Anna Sabine (Frome and East Somerset) (LD)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Elaine Stewart) for her speech, particularly what she said about women in politics and smashing the glass ceiling. All the maiden speeches today have been fantastic, but in particular I mention that of the hon. Member for Stroud (Dr Opher), because he talked about developing vaccines for cancer. That was rather poignant for me, because while I have been in the Chamber I have learned that a good friend of mine has died of bowel cancer, which she had had for many years. I pay tribute to her and her young family.
The Great British Energy Bill is particularly important to the residents of Frome and East Somerset, many of whom, especially in more rural areas, live in fuel poverty. Frome and East Somerset is a wholly new constituency created by the recent boundary review, which means I have the very great privilege of being its first ever MP. Frome has a reputation as a cultural and arts hub for the south-west, home to the Cheese & Grain, the Mark Bruce Dance Company and the renowned Frome Independent market. It also has the dubious honour, I am told, of being the most mispronounced town in the UK. Given the number of mispronunciations of my own surname, Sabine, clearly my constituents were looking for someone who sympathises with their linguistic challenge. For the House’s information, it is definitely “Froom” not “Froam”.
I do not think my constituents would mind my describing Frome as feisty. The town is free spirited and forward thinking, often pioneering new ways of doing things, whether having a proudly independent town council, starting the UK’s first community fridge or sharing best practice on social prescribing in GP surgeries. Frome is awash with local groups doing incredible work for the environment, such as Friends of the River Frome and Frome Families for the Future, with which I have already had the pleasure of working. I look forward to championing their causes throughout my time in this place.
Until July, Frome was represented by my hon. Friend the Member for Glastonbury and Somerton (Sarah Dyke), and I hope to be able to emulate her energy and enthusiasm in serving this very special place. The East Somerset half of my constituency comprises the settlements of Midsomer Norton, Radstock and Peasedown St John. These areas have a proud coalmining history dating back to the 1700s. They also share a fantastic sense of community, some wonderful local schools, and plenty of walks and open countryside to enjoy. Midsomer Norton is also home to a section of the Somerset and Dorset railway, with one mile of track running from Midsomer to Chilcompton. My late father was both an ardent Lib Dem and a massive steam train enthusiast, so I think he would have been delighted to see his new MP daughter being given a tour of the railway by the trust’s wonderful volunteers during its 150th birthday celebrations this summer.
Until July, East Somerset was represented by Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg. I know from my time in the constituency the high regard in which he and his team were held by local people, particularly when it came to responding to and resolving casework. That commitment to supporting local residents, shown by both Sir Jacob and my hon. Friend the Member for Glastonbury and Somerton, is one I aim to emulate.
Dotted throughout the constituency are a whole host of other villages, hamlets and communities, many with farming and rural traditions at their heart and with a real sense of community spirit. If I have made it sound like my constituency comprises three distinct parts, then hon. Members should know that they are linked by many factors, such as a proud industrial heritage, a sense of community spirit and, of course, a love of Somerset cider. However, there are constituency-wide issues, which I will work hard to resolve, such as a lack of access to dentists, serious challenges around safety on our A roads, and a need for better bus services to help link up all the different settlements. I moved to Somerset over 20 years ago and intend to spend my time in this place working hard on the issues I know matter to the people in Frome and East Somerset.
Finally, let me say a word on my journey to Parliament. I am technically not the first member of my family to be found on the parliamentary estate. My great, great aunt, Helen Fraser, was a Scottish suffragist and her picture is part of the display on the wall in the admissions office. In 1922, she was the first woman to stand for Parliament in Scotland—of course she stood for the Liberal party—but sadly she did not make it to the Chamber herself.
I attended a state comprehensive school in Hampshire, where I grew up with my mum and brother. I won a county music scholarship that enabled me to join my amazing local youth orchestra and have a whole range of experiences I would not otherwise have been able to take part in. I managed to secure a place at Oxford University and I can well remember feeling like a fish out of water when I arrived there, absolutely bemused by its architecture and traditions, and often wondering if Oxford was really a place for someone like me. Fast forward 26 years and many of those emotions welled up again as I wandered around the parliamentary estate and grappled with the intricacies of its systems and procedures. As a single mum now myself, I am acutely aware that many of the ways in which this place works were not designed with parenting in mind, and they do not always feel accessible to many of us—although I should mention that I am grateful for all the support, as I am sure all new Members are, from the extraordinarily kind and helpful House staff.
Part of the reason I stood for Parliament was to give my wonderful children some faith in our political system and to show them that anyone can be an MP. I am absolutely determined that in my time here I will always have one eye on ensuring that the young people of Frome and East Somerset are not made to feel that anywhere is out of their reach. I want young people from all backgrounds in my constituency to know that the great institutions of this country, be they our universities, our scientific bodies, our civil service, our orchestras or indeed this place, are institutions where they are not only able to participate, but are actively welcomed.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I call Julie Minns to make her maiden speech.
Ms Julie Minns (Carlisle) (Lab)
Thank you for calling me, Madam Deputy Speaker. I also thank the hon. Member for Frome and East Somerset (Anna Sabine) for her maiden speech, made on what I understand is a very difficult afternoon for her. I am sure that everyone in the House would join me in sending condolences to her and to the family of her friend.
This has been a most entertaining and enjoyable debate. Any debate that marries ABBA, Stan Laurel and Shane Warne is one that I want very much to be part of, so I am delighted to have the opportunity to make my maiden speech in this context. It is also apt that I make it during a debate on Great British Energy. It is apt not just because the transition to clean energy and tackling climate change are critical to Carlisle—flooding has already decimated our city twice during this century, and local villages are too often cut off by localised flooding—and not just because we need to remove the obstacles that prevent Cumbria’s farmers from connecting their solar and wind farms, but because people right across Carlisle and north Cumbria tell me that they are desperate to see that cut in their energy bills.
It is also personally apt that I speak on this topic. My great-grandfather, a Conservative alderman and councillor for Carlisle, was a man of unusually progressive thinking. In 1909, he urged our city’s industries to set aside coal and instead harness the hydroelectric power of the three rivers on which our great border city stands. I like to think that, whatever our political differences, my great-grandfather and I would have agreed that Great British Energy is not just right, but essential for Carlisle, for Cumbria, and for our country.
I am the first Carlisle-born Member of Parliament since 1918, and the very first woman to represent England’s most northerly city. It is a city of many little-known facts. For example, in the 1830s, it was home to Britain’s first black police officer. In 1916, David Lloyd George nationalised all our city’s pubs and breweries, declaring that their intoxicating effect on munitions workers was doing more damage to the British war effort than the entirety of the German submarine fleet. In 1963, the Beatles were thrown out of Carlisle’s Crown & Mitre Hotel after a complaint from the local golf club that the young Liverpudlians were too casually dressed. My predecessor John Stevenson is himself a keen golfer, and I like to think that while he might be a stickler for the rules, he would have recognised the fledgling talent of the Fab Four, and would not have been so hasty in demanding their removal. I say this because John was a strong advocate for the potential of our young people, and played an important role in securing the new Pears medical school at the University of Cumbria, which will open its doors next year.
In over 2,000 years of city history, the University of Cumbria is a relative newcomer, and its creation is testimony to the work of the last Labour MP for Carlisle, Eric Martlew, who did so much to secure a university for our city. I look forward very much to the opening of the new medical school, and the contribution that it will make to our Government’s mission to rebuild our NHS and train the next generation—like my own daughter—of home-grown doctors, nurses and paramedics.
My constituency lies between the Lake district and Hadrian’s Wall. It is plentiful in sheep and cattle, and is populated by folk known for good craic and a love of XL crisps. For the uninitiated, let me explain that the XL crisp is a savoury, cheesy—no onion—delight, whose availability in the catering outlets of this House I shall passionately campaign for. I shall also campaign for more critical matters, such as the completion of our flood defences—defences that were promised but not delivered by the last Government—the rebuilding of NHS dentistry across north Cumbria, and the growth of Carlisle’s night-time and visitor economies.
Carlisle and north Cumbria already have much to offer visitors. I challenge Members to name another UK city than can boast not only citadels, city walls and a Norman castle, but a Victorian railway station, a cathedral, and original Turkish Baths. At this point I must declare an interest, as chair of the charity working towards the refurbishment and reopening of Carlisle’s historic Turkish baths. It is one of only 12 original baths still in working order in the UK, the only one left in the north-west of England and the only one with a tiled interior made by the company responsible for the exquisite tiles here at the Palace of Westminster.
We are also blessed with a rich industrial heritage. Over the years, Carlisle has been a hub of food manufacturing, with the sweet manufacturer Teasdale, famous for its liquorice Nipits; Cavaghan & Gray, which produces not just any ready meals, but M&S ready meals; and Carr’s biscuits, home of the Table Water and employer of generations of cracker packers.
I could not be prouder to represent the city where I was born and raised. I owe a debt to Robert Ferguson school and Trinity school for helping a working-class child from Denton Holme to become the first in her family to go to university. Without university, I would not have become involved in politics and would not have had the privilege of campaigning for John Smith, a great parliamentarian, to become leader of our party. Nor would I have realised the ambition of my distant cousin Ernest Lowthian, who was Labour’s first parliamentary candidate for Carlisle back in 1918.
In conclusion, I return to my great-grandfather. At the opening of one of the bridges that cross the rivers whose energy he sought to harness, he said:
“Our job as servants of our great border city is to leave it a little better than we found it.”
That, Madam Deputy Speaker, is the task that I have set myself.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Order. To allow time for one more maiden speech, the next speaker has agreed to speak for two minutes. Thank you so much, Llinos Medi.
Llinos Medi (Ynys Môn) (PC)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Carlisle (Ms Minns) on her maiden speech. I thank her for sharing her passion and for her mention of the delicatessens in her area after a long afternoon.
Ynys Môn is known as the energy island because of its rich natural energy potential, its powerful, predictable tides and the proud history of nuclear production on the island. The Wylfa site has been a political game for over a decade. Back in 2019 we were so close to the finish line, but the site lacked political support from the Government at the time. The community has witnessed the false dawn of Wylfa Newydd, and there is uncertainty regarding site under this Labour Government. The Government’s fact sheet for the Bill says that Great British Energy’s functions will include
“exploring how Great British Energy and Great British Nuclear will work together”.
The people of Ynys Môn do not want more consideration; they want clear commitment and timelines. I urge the Government to give Ynys Môn a straight answer about the future of the Wylfa site, and a clear timeline.
I was pleased that the HydroWing tidal project won 10 MW in the latest contract-for-difference auction. This technology will produce energy for the community-owned Morlais project off the coast of Holyhead. However, Wales received only 1.63% of the total auction allocation and no contracts were awarded to Welsh floating offshore wind projects. We were promised that a Labour Government in Westminster and a Labour Government in Wales would benefit Wales. This is yet to be seen.
A commitment for GBE to massively expand local and community ownership energy alongside devolution of the Crown Estate would ensure that ownership and profits from energy projects are in the hands of the people of Wales and could help lower bills. I urge this Government to make sure that those decisions are put in local hands, but not to rush the decisions on large solar panels, because food security is paramount and losing valuable agricultural land could mean a decline in the economy of Ynys Môn.
Ultimately, the immense natural energy potential of Ynys Môn and the rest of Wales can be truly realised only if control of Welsh natural resources is held by Welsh communities, backed with sufficient public investment to meet our climate and economic goals. I hope I was within the time limit, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Madam Deputy Speaker
That was magnificent. To make his maiden speech, I call Mark Sewards, who has five minutes.
Mr Mark Sewards (Leeds South West and Morley) (Lab)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. In the interest of saving time, I am sure you will grant me permission to skip to the part of my speech where I celebrate my great constituency of Leeds South West and Morley.
It is the greatest responsibility and honour of my life to stand before you as the Labour MP for Leeds South West and Morley. Alongside being a husband and a dad, this is the most important job I will ever do, and I give sincere thanks to my constituents and neighbours for sending me to this place.
It has been nine years since Morley and Outwood, the old constituency, sent Dame Andrea Jenkyns to represent us, and I would like to give sincere thanks to my predecessor. Dame Andrea is a ferocious campaigner for the issues she passionately believes in. During her time as our MP, she was a strong advocate for animal welfare and always stood up for the people of Ukraine. She will always speak her mind and her truth to power, as Members of this House will be able to confirm. While the list of things that we agree on is reasonably short, we were in broad agreement, prior to the general election, that there needed to be change in Prime Minister. I sincerely thank Dame Andrea Jenkyns for her service to her constituents and this House.
Leeds South West and Morley is steeped in history and tradition, and it is made up of some of the best and proudest communities in the country. The town of Morley is in the centre, and I am proud to say that I was raised there. However, some of my constituents will hear me say that and take issue, because I was in fact raised in Churwell, a village that is geographically attached to the town of Morley. While I will always call myself a proud Morleian, the truth is that there are distinct differences in each part of my constituency. Each one has its own proud history and its own stories to tell.
Part of Morley’s history is that it was once home to the penultimate Liberal Prime Minister, Herbert Asquith. You can find his name on buildings and in streets, including, I am sorry to say, the infamous Asquith Avenue, which is in desperate need of resurfacing. I know that some of the historians among us will never forgive Herbert Asquith—not for the quality of the roads in his name, but for the shell crisis of 1915, which saw the British Army left without the munitions it needed during world war one. This ultimately brought down his premiership, but given that the crisis was abated when the state stepped in to provide a solution, it stands as a reminder that, as powerful as the free market can be, at times there are problems and crises that require the power of the state to solve.
While I am sharing a snippet of the history of my constituency, it would be remiss of me not to talk about the place of the mills and the mines in the history of Leeds South West and Morley. Whether it was the role of Morley, Tingley, Gildersome or East Ardsley in the heavy woollen trade, or the mines in the villages of Lofthouse and Robin Hood, these industries have shaped our constituency and the home that we know and love today. But it is not just the history of my constituency that makes it great; it is the people. It is the people at Drighlington village’s Coffee Pot Memory Café, who do outstanding work for people with dementia. For their efforts, they were recently awarded the King’s award for voluntary service—one of the highest honours that such an organisation can receive. I commend them for their work.
While I am talking about Drighlington, I must also pay tribute to not one but two Olympic medallists who live in the village: Jack Laughter and Lois Toulson, who both won bronze in the 3-metre and 10-metre synchronised diving events in Paris. I congratulate them on their incredible success. It is Lois’s first medal and Jack’s fourth—he now has one of every colour.
In Churwell village, we are blessed with the environmental action volunteers, who keep the community looking outstanding. In Farnley, we have the 8th South West Leeds scout group, who work in conjunction with our litter pickers to keep our community looking outstanding. In Wortley, residents have gone to great lengths to protect and restore the TV Harrison football field. Leeds United legends have trained there, including Paul Reaney and David Batty, and I look forward to working with residents and the Leeds Schools Sports Association, which has responsibility for the site, to restore it to its former glory.
Although Farnley and Wortley are new additions to the constituency, it is a place that does not have its own community hub or library. But what it does have are some outstanding sports teams that make up the community hub for our community in Farnley and Wortley. These are Wortley FC, the Farnley Falcons, West Leeds RUFC and, of course, New Farnley Cricket Club. Wortley is the place where I am raising my own children, Oscar and Arthur, who will never be able to call themselves Morleians, I am sorry to say.
Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker—I know that my remaining time is very short—I want to reference the work of WF3 Kindness, which works across Tingley, Ardsley, Thorpe, Lofthouse and Robin Hood. Its sole aim is to help people in those communities to live stronger and better lives, and I look forward to supporting the charity in that work.
These organisations and constituents have sent me here to return politics to public service once again. They have sent me here to restore stability to our country and our economy. They have sent me here to plug the gaps that they have often had to fill themselves. My constituents have stepped up for their community time and again, and it is my turn to do the same for them.
Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)
It has been a great privilege to listen to so many maiden speeches this afternoon, with so many Members of Parliament, pretenders to the throne, representing what they claim to be the most beautiful constituency in the country. Everybody, of course, knows that is West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, but listening to everybody was a great reminder of the fact that there is so much more that unites us than divides us. We are all privileged to serve in this place, and we are all privileged to serve the constituents who sent us here for however long or short.
However, reading through the list of the 18 constituencies whose Member gave their maiden speech today felt like reading the list of all the parts of the country where I either spoke or campaigned over the last year. The fact they are now all represented by parties not my own perhaps says something about my campaigning ability: Clwyd East; Northampton South; North East Hertfordshire; Eastleigh; Stratford and Bow; Cheadle; Truro and Falmouth; Camborne and Redruth; Stroud; Barrow and Furness; St Austell and Newquay; Inverness, Skye and West Ross-shire; Caerfyrddin; Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock; Frome and East Somerset; Carlisle; Ynys Môn; and Leeds South West and Morley—all fantastic maiden speeches. Welcome to the House of Commons. It is just unfortunate that, on such an auspicious and a proud day for those Members, we had to spend our time talking about an unnecessary and costly gimmick that will not improve our energy security and will do nothing to reduce consumers’ bills or our carbon emissions.
We heard the Liberal Democrats claim that we left a mess for the Government to clean up when it comes to energy. Well, if having the first to fifth largest offshore wind farms in the world, the fastest reduction of carbon emissions in the G7, an end to coal-fired power production and net zero in law is a mess, I would like to see a good job well done.
We heard great claims from the Secretary of State that GB Energy will incentivise investment and speed up the deployment of new technologies while scaling up more mature ones, all of which is debatable to say the least. As the public out there watch their bills go up again, the Labour party claimed through the election that creating this company will automatically lead to lower bills. We heard again and again that bills will be £300 lower. Funny that we do not hear that figure bandied around as frequently today. That is the most questionable claim.
If not £300, as the Secretary of State used to claim, by how much will bills fall as a result of establishing this company, and by when? How will this company speed up deployment? What will it do differently, given that we already have the first to fifth largest offshore wind farms generating power here right now without this costly gimmick? Although I respect the ambition and agree that we need to see more jobs for British workers and the establishment of a UK-based supply chain, which is why we created the sustainable industry rewards that will come in at allocation round 7, does the Minister acknowledge that this will take time and that we are hundreds of thousands of workers short of the plans that we have to build right now, and that this will make no difference to the Government’s 2030 plans?
The Secretary of State’s claim not to be neutral about where things are made rings hollow to the supply chain in and around Aberdeen, which is worried about the future of North sea oil and gas because of his Government’s decisions. The announcement, with much fanfare, that GB Energy will establish an unprecedented partnership with the Crown Estate is fantastic, but what does that mean for Scotland, where the Crown Estate is devolved? The private sector projects are, in the Secretary of State’s words, guaranteed to return a profit, so why do they need to be de-risked by the taxpayer? What will be the cost to the taxpayer when, inevitably, some of these new technologies fail? What will be the company’s final bill for taxpayers?
Although £8 billion is a large amount of money—just think how many pensioners could heat their home for that amount, for example—the TUC, no less, conducted an analysis last year that found that GB Energy will need around £61 billion to £82 billion of investment between 2025 and 2035 to scale it up to the level needed to do all the miraculous things that the Government claim.
This initial £8.3 billion capitalisation, large when we have such pressure on public finances, seems a little on the low side if the Government really want to create a British Ørsted or EDF, bailed out annually by the taxpayer, especially given that £3.3 billion is planned to fund local authorities and provide low-cost loans to communities, leaving £5 billion to do everything else. When does the Minister expect his boss, the Secretary of State, who has returned to the Chamber, to go cap in hand to the Treasury asking for more money? What exactly does he think the Chancellor’s response will be?
How will the establishment of GB Energy impact the independence of GB Nuclear? Will GB Energy now have the final say over the small modular reactor drawdown process? How is that process progressing anyway? Do we have a timeline for a final decision on that or on a third gigawatt-scale reactor at Wylfa?
Josh MacAlister (Whitehaven and Workington) (Lab)
I thank the hon. Gentleman—apologies, the right hon. Gentleman—for giving way. Some 18 years ago, a younger Member for Doncaster North approved land at Moorside, next to Sellafield, for new nuclear use, but 18 years on we are now at the eleventh hour, thanks to the indecision, chaos and confusion of the last Government, who were unable to make long-term decisions about the nuclear future of our country but are now lecturing this Government. Why is the shadow Minister defending the last Government’s approach when it is so apparent that a new approach is needed?
Andrew Bowie
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. He was right the first time—hon. Gentleman, not right hon. Gentleman. I was very pleased to visit Sellafield and Moorside in his constituency, and I was proud to be the first Minister for nuclear in the history of this country. I was proud to launch Great British Nuclear, and to announce the small modular reactor drawdown scheme, our route to market for alternative energy, that we would build a third gigawatt-scale reactor at Wylfa and that we would carry on with things at Sizewell. Now it is in the hands of the hon. Gentleman’s party to take the decisions necessary to move the nuclear industry to the next level, moving forward on our proud, world-leading agenda for reinvestment and our revolutionising of this country’s nuclear industry, of which he is rightly proud.
Andrew Bowie
I will not, because that will eat into his own Minister’s time to respond. Oh, maybe I will as it is the hon. Gentleman who is asking.
Mr Perkins
The shadow Minister is such a generous man. He is listing all the commitments he made, but we all know that his Government made £22 billion-worth of commitments that they had no idea how they would pay for. Why does he not tell the truth?
Andrew Bowie
“Truth” is quite an interesting word coming from the party that has decided to prioritise train drivers over pensioners and that, on the very day it announced a 22% increase in junior doctors’ pay, told the pensioners of this country they would be going cold this winter.
To go back to the matter at hand, what will be the relationship between GB Energy and UK Industrial Fusion Solutions or the International Atomic Energy Agency? How will that affect the plans for STEP—the spherical tokamak for energy production—at West Burton? The Secretary of State wants the UK to export more energy, but has he done an analysis of the impact on bill payers of building the required infrastructure and interconnectors? Will GB Energy and not Ofgem now be the final decision maker when it comes to the approval of new international interconnectors to the continent? If so, how will it be held responsible for those decisions by the Department and by Parliament?
I know the Minister is a respectful person, so I ask him sincerely to please end the disrespect being shown to the people of Aberdeen, with the “will they, won’t they” game being played around the location of GB Energy’s headquarters. Politics aside, that area of the country is already worried about its economic future. My plea to him, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gordon and Buchan (Harriet Cross) asked earlier, is to end that situation and make an announcement as soon as possible.
Ultimately, the simple question the Minister will have to answer, after having considered all the points made by hon. Members this afternoon, is why? Why are the Government doing this? Britain is already a world leader in clean energy production. We are already leading the world in cutting our carbon emissions. We already export energy. We are building new technologies at unprecedented rates. We have halved our emissions and done so while growing the economy.
The Secretary of State regularly, and rightly, claims that it is Britain’s over-reliance on gas that has led to bill payers here paying higher bills than in other countries. As I say, he is not wrong. It is acknowledged by the Climate Change Committee that we will be reliant on gas for a significant proportion of our energy supply for many years to come, so his decisions for the North sea will leave us, in the short term, even more reliant on foreign imports and on the countries and regimes he claims he wants to free us from, and there will be a lower tax return for the Treasury from a smaller sector. Jobs, capabilities and skills will be lost overseas, and bills will not fall, certainly not by the £300 he claimed during the election.
So if there is nothing in GB Energy for bill payers, it does not have the capital to enable it to be an Ørsted or an EDF, we are already a world leader, it will open the taxpayer up to huge risk, investing in emerging technologies might fail and it will not increase our energy security, the question is why do it? What is the point in GB Energy? Surely the Secretary of State is not that desperate to have something to put on his “Ed stone” or to have a new plaque to unveil. It may well be about the “Ed stone”, but the Secretary of State should be aware that this Bill could be the Government’s tombstone. We have seen how these projects end up: Robin Hood Energy collapsing, leaving Nottingham City council with a bill of £38 million; and the same with Bristol Energy. What will the bill for the country be if GB Energy follows the same path?
Great British Energy will not produce any energy, it will not cut household energy bills by £300 as the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero have all stated, and it will not compensate for the amount of investment in energy projects that will be deterred by the Government’s plans to prematurely shut down the UK’s oil and gas sector. It is an unjustified use of taxpayers’ money at a time when the Government are withdrawing the winter fuel payment for 10 million pensioners as energy bills rise. I echo the words of the Secretary of State and urge Members on the Government Benches to ignore their Whip and vote for our amendment this evening.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Michael Shanks)
May I begin by thanking right hon. and hon. Members who have participated in this extremely wide-ranging debate this afternoon? I particularly pay tribute to all Members across the House who made their maiden speech in this debate. Thankfully, the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie) has already run through all the constituency names, so I do not need to do that again. However, I do want to highlight specifically some of the really emotional contributions that we heard from hon. Members, particularly my hon. Friends the Members for North East Hertfordshire (Chris Hinchliff) and for Stratford and Bow (Uma Kumaran) and the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Liz Jarvis), who spoke so passionately, as many did, about their pride in their communities and the importance of this moment and this decisive decade in tackling irreversible climate change. There will come a point in this Parliament when we will not have debates that are dominated by maiden speeches, and I will really regret that, because every time I sit here I learn a lot more about the country in which we live. I thank all those Members for sharing their communities with us this afternoon.
This has been a thorough and interesting discussion about the principles behind this Bill and the establishment of Great British Energy. The UK faces immense challenges, from energy insecurity and our over-reliance on volatile fossil fuel markets to the cost of living crisis and climate crisis. This Government are determined to address those challenges with clean energy being a key part of the solution.
Other countries have already seized the opportunity of publicly owned energy generation companies, which has left Britain behind. Unlike previous Governments, this Government are committed to the benefits of public ownership in the UK, and we want UK citizens and taxpayers to own parts of our infrastructure, too.
Great British Energy will drive clean energy deployment, boost energy independence and generate benefits for all parts of the United Kingdom. It will deliver for the British people, creating good jobs, delivering profits and demonstrating international leadership.
Michael Shanks
I will carry on just now, because we have a very short time before we finish.
I wish to address the reasoned amendment tabled in the name of the right hon. Member for East Surrey (Claire Coutinho). I shall address many of these points in more detail, but, in short, Great British Energy will produce clean energy, protect bill payers in the long term, and invest in projects that expect a return on investments, generating revenue and delivering for the people of this country in the process. We will manage the transition in the North sea in a way that is prosperous and just and enables our offshore workers to retrain into the industries of the future in a long-term sustainable way. I urge the House to vote against this so-called reasoned amendment tonight.
I turn to some of the specific points that have been raised. I am sorry that I will not be able to get to all of them, because I have very little time. We have already announced a substantial amount of detail on GB Energy beyond this Bill, including publishing its founding statement, announcing the first major partnership with the Crown Estate, confirming that it will be headquartered in Scotland, and appointing Jürgen Maier as the start-up chair. This Bill is the next stage of Great British Energy’s journey, giving it the statutory footing that is needed to deliver on our ambitions. It is drafted to help establish Great British Energy and sets out the necessary legal framework.
GB Energy will be an operationally independent company, just as Great British Nuclear and the UK Infrastructure Bank are. It will be accountable to Parliament, not run by Ministers as some Members have claimed today. It will be overseen by an experienced board, benefiting from industry-leading expertise and experience right across its remit, bringing the most skilled and experienced individuals to the heart of the decisions that it will make.
GB Energy will not be a trading fund, as suggested by the hon. Member for Angus and Perthshire Glens (Dave Doogan). Instead, as I have already said, it will be an operationally independent energy company that owns, manages and operates clean energy projects. I suppose the confusion arises from the fact that the SNP’s commitment to set up a publicly owned energy company has not come to anything at all. I think it has been seven years since it was announced. Only this week, the Scottish Government drew down even more money from the ScotWind inheritance to plug the gaps in their day-to-day spending.
Michael Shanks
We have heard from the hon. Gentleman already.
There were multiple questions in this debate about how Great British Energy will lower bills and when taxpayers will see a difference. That features in the reasoned amendment tabled by the Opposition. Conservative Members want to raise the issue of bills as if they have been nowhere for the past 14 years. Their record is why people up and down this country are paying more in their bills, and the people will not forget it.
Michael Shanks
I will not give way; I am very short on time.
In an unstable world, the only way to guarantee our energy security and protect bill payers from future energy shocks is to speed up our transition away from fossil fuels and towards home-grown clean energy. We have been clear that we cannot flick a switch and fix 14 years of dither and delay overnight, but we have set about starting to do so, and we will continue. Throughout supporting the transition, Great British Energy will save families money by ensuring that electricity bills are no longer exposed to those kind of price shocks—[Interruption.] If Conservative Members want to put a number on this, let us just ask them to go back to their constituencies and ask their constituents how much more they are paying in their bills thanks to 14 years of Conservative government.
On the question of jobs, a number of hon. Members rightly raised the importance of investing in our supply chains and in the skills of the future. Great British Energy will create thousands of good jobs and build supply chains in every corner of the UK through the projects that it supports, as well as at its future head office in Scotland. Its investments will support companies across the energy industry, providing opportunities for high-quality, well-paid work rebuilding the UK’s industrial heartlands.
Several Members raised the question of community energy, which is at the heart of the Bill. Local power generation is an essential part of the energy mix, ensuring that energy projects deliver not just a community benefit but the social outcomes that local communities need. Many Members mentioned that.
Michael Shanks
I have said that I do not have time. The hon. Gentleman gave a speech in which he raised a number of points, and I am happy to come back to him at another time.
Community energy also reduces pressures on the transmission grid and the need for expensive investment, so community ownership will be critical. Great British Energy will deliver a step change in investment in local and community energy projects, putting local authorities and communities at the heart of the energy transition.
Finally, I will address a few points on devolution, which was raised by the hon. Member for Angus and Perthshire Glens, the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) and my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (Perran Moon). Great British Energy is intended to support all parts of the United Kingdom, and will help to ensure that every part of this country has a role to play in delivering our energy independence. Since we came into government, we have been engaging regularly with the devolved Governments, on this Bill and a range of other issues, to reset the relationships with them. I hope that soon the devolved Governments will indicate their support for the Bill by passing motions of legislative consent.
One of the Government’s five driving missions is to make Britain a clean energy superpower, and at the heart of that mission is Great British Energy. This is a bold idea, overwhelmingly backed by the British people—not only by people who voted Labour, but by people who voted SNP, people who voted Conservative and even people who voted Reform. Surprisingly, there were people who voted for those parties. This is an idea that has the public’s support. It will speed up the delivery of the clean energy that we need. It will deliver the next generation of good jobs, with strong trade unions, helping to re-industrialise all parts of our nation. It will protect family finances. It will learn the lessons of the past and allow the British people to reap the rewards of this transition. I urge the House to support the Bill and bring a fully operational Great British Energy one step closer to reality. I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
The House proceeded to a Division.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Will the Serjeant at Arms investigate the delay in the No Lobby?
Great British Energy Bill (First sitting)
Tuesday 8th October 2024
(2 weeks, 6 days ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Great British Energy Bill 2024-26 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 8 October 2024 - (8 Oct 2024)
The Chair
We are now sitting in public and the proceedings are being broadcast—Big Brother, so watch your words. Date Time Witness Tuesday 8 October Until no later than 9.50 am Juergen Maier CBE Until no later than 10.20 am Trades Union Congress; Prospect Until no later than 11.00 am Green Alliance; Nesta; Aurora Energy Research Until no later than 11.25 am RenewableUK; Energy UK Until no later than 2.30 pm SSE plc; EDF Renewables Until no later than 2.50 pm The Crown Estate Until no later than 3.10 pm Flint Global Until no later than 3.50 pm The Carbon Capture and Storage Association (CCSA); Scottish Renewables; Net Zero Technology Centre Until no later than 4.10 pm Offshore Energies UK (OEUK) Until no later than 4.30 pm GMB Union Until no later than 5.00 pm Michael Shanks MP, Minister for Energy, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero
I have a few preliminary announcements. Hansard colleagues will be grateful if Members email their speaking notes. Please switch electronic devices to silent mode. Tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings.
We will first consider the programme motion on the amendment paper, and then a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication and a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about divvying up the questions before we get into the oral evidence sessions. In view of the time available, I hope that we can take such matters formally, without debate. I will first call the Minister to move the programme motion, which stands in his name and was discussed yesterday by the Programming Sub-Committee.
Ordered,
That—
1. the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 9.25 am on Tuesday 8 October) meet—
(a) at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 8 October;
(b) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 10 October;
(c) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 15 October;
2. the Committee shall hear oral evidence in accordance with the following Table:
3. the proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 5.00 pm on Tuesday 15 October.—(Michael Shanks.)
Resolved,
That, subject to the discretion of the Chair, any written evidence received by the Committee shall be reported to the House for publication.—(Michael Shanks.)
The Chair
Copies of written evidence will be made available on the desk in the Committee Room.
Resolved,
That, at this and any subsequent meeting at which oral evidence is to be heard, the Committee shall sit in private until the witnesses are admitted.—(Michael Shanks.)
The Chair
We are now sitting in public again and the proceedings are being broadcast. Before we hear from the witnesses, does any Member wish to make a declaration of interest in connection with the Bill?
Olivia Blake (Sheffield Hallam) (Lab)
My husband is company secretary of Sheffield Renewables, a community energy project in Sheffield that generates energy.
Andrew Pakes (Peterborough) (Lab)
This is registered, but I have been told to say it out loud: I am a member of the GMB, which is appearing before us later, and before the election I was the deputy general secretary of Prospect, which is also speaking to us this morning.
Torcuil Crichton (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Lab)
I am also a member of the GMB.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Michael Shanks)
I am also a member of the GMB.
Josh MacAlister (Whitehaven and Workington) (Lab)
I am also a member of the GMB.
The Chair
For full transparency, I am a member of Unison.
Examination of Witness
Juergen Maier gave evidence.
The Chair
We will begin by hearing oral evidence from Mr Juergen Maier, chair of Great British Energy and of Digital Catapult. Before I call the first Member to ask a question, I remind Members that all questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill. It is a short and quite a narrow Bill, and if you stray I will tell you off, so do not stray in the first place. We must stick to the timings; for the first evidence session we have until 9.50 am.
Will the witness introduce himself for the record?
Juergen Maier: Good morning, everybody. It is a pleasure to be here. I am the start-up chair of Great British Energy. I am in the process of stepping down from Digital Catapult; we are just looking for the new chair to replace me, so that I can focus on this role.
Andrew Bowie
Q
It was announced with great fanfare at the Labour party conference that the new headquarters of Great British Energy would be in Aberdeen. What does that actually mean? What will the HQ actually do? How many people will be employed at the HQ?
Juergen Maier: The HQ is where we will centre all our operations. That means that all the key staff will be there, including the chief executive when we get around to appointing one. We will probably start with an interim chief executive who might not be located there, but eventually that is our plan.
There will be other locations. We would also like a location in Edinburgh and one in Glasgow, in particular to help on innovation and maybe financial services. I see the main role in Aberdeen as being particularly around operational engineering jobs. Ultimately, those are the jobs that are in abundance in Aberdeen; they are the well-paid jobs and the ones that are in greater quantity.
Andrew Bowie
Q
Juergen Maier: There are two very simple answers. The first is how many renewable energy and clean energy projects Great British Energy has been a part of, as a co-investor, an investor or an enabler, and how much more renewable energy we have thereby managed to get on the grid. The second is how many jobs and how much prosperity we have created as a result, making sure that as much of the supply chain is Scottish/British, rather than overseas.
Catherine Fookes (Monmouthshire) (Lab)
Q
Juergen Maier: Community energy is definitely a priority for Great British Energy. If you want to point specifically to the Bill, clause 3, “Objects”, refers in subsection (2)(a) to
“the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy”.
I see community energy as a core part of that. As Great British Energy, we definitely want to support the schemes that you have been talking about, whether those are in Wales, Scotland, England or Northern Ireland. We will definitely be doing that.
Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)
Q
Juergen Maier: Indeed. You are right that I did not answer your first question directly. The reason, obviously, is that we have not been able to put a direct number on it yet. It will be in the hundreds; it may eventually be 1,000 or more in the HQ. You will now say, “That is not going to help manage the energy transition,” but the reason is that the large numbers of people we will be helping to employ will be in the supply chain. If we look at some of the numbers already, by the end of the decade 100,000 people will be employed in offshore wind. I hope that many more of those will be in floating offshore wind, and floating offshore wind will happen off the coast of Aberdeen and indeed the whole east coast of the United Kingdom.
The jobs will be the sort that work with supply chains and the private sector to determine how we will enable floating offshore wind. What is the technology? What are the innovation challenges? What about project-managing the schemes, helping them to get through planning permission and making sure that they get on the grid? There will be all those sorts of questions. I very much see the role of Great British Energy as that of an enabler to get such new technologies on to the grid, and as that of an investor and co-investor. It will take quite a team of people and skills to achieve that.
Stephen Flynn
Q
Juergen Maier: The only way to get energy bills down and to get greater energy security is to get more renewable energy on the grid. We have to keep reminding people that the reason why energy bills went up was not renewable energy; it was a global oil and gas price crisis. Every megawatt and gigawatt of renewable energy that we put on the grid will help to bring bills and prices down. The exact mechanism by which that happens is, of course, a matter of policy—how you decide to bring those bills to the consumer. That is not the scope of Great British Energy; it is not the scope of the Bill, either.
Torcuil Crichton
Q
Juergen Maier: Thank you for the question. We have laid out the five key priorities of Great British Energy. One is to invest and co-invest; another is to enable and help to accelerate development; the third is very much about the local community energy that your colleague talked about earlier. That will be through community energy schemes. The reason we are so keen on that is that it is where community engagement really comes in. That will not be the gigawatts of renewable energy— the gigawatts will be in floating offshore wind—but I passionately believe that by engaging with local communities, whether that is with local solar, with onshore wind or with tidal-type schemes, you can really get that community engagement and community acceptance. Indeed, you can really deliver the local social benefit that those schemes can deliver.
Torcuil Crichton
And economic benefit too, we hope.
Juergen Maier: Of course.
Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
Q
Juergen Maier: Certainly the enabling part of what we do will be pre-CfDs, as you say. That is also where our partnership with the Crown Estate comes in. This is where we will be doing a lot of the early consenting and engaging on the willingness to co-invest and give confidence, but we will also be there past the CfDs. As and when the schemes get developed, there may be opportunities to come in and be a co-investor. We would also be supporting that.
The Chair
Order. Is this within the scope of the Bill? Our last question will be at 9.47 am, and four more Members have indicated that they wish to come in.
Wera Hobhouse
Q
Juergen Maier: There will be two things. The Bill clearly sets out the structure of how we will set up Great British Energy and the key areas of focus. Obviously there will then be a business plan and a framework agreement between us and the Secretary of State, in which we will have to clarify exactly those questions and where Great British Energy and the UKIB take their role. Those are things that will need to be clarified, but I do not think that putting them in the Bill would particularly help us to do that.
Wera Hobhouse
Q
“The Secretary of State must prepare a statement of strategic priorities for Great British Energy.”
Do you have any idea of when we can expect that statement to be laid before Parliament?
Juergen Maier: I am not sure of the exact timings. Maybe when you get evidence from the Minister he will be able to put a time on that.
Perran Moon (Camborne and Redruth) (Lab)
Q
Juergen Maier: Indeed. The earlier question was pointed at the north-east and Aberdeen, hence my response, but you are right. As a matter of fact, the two key areas where floating offshore wind will be developed are in the north-east and in the Celtic sea. From a logistics point of view, you could not put them further apart, so it is not exactly ideal—
The Chair
Order. We are moving outside the scope of the Bill.
Juergen Maier: Anyway, the answer to your question is the same answer that I gave for Aberdeen. There will be an HQ, a lot of the activities, project management, knowledge and engineering, but obviously when it gets to installation and port-type infrastructure work, there will be significant opportunity in Cornwall and anywhere serving the Celtic sea.
Harriet Cross (Gordon and Buchan) (Con)
Q
“sources other than fossil fuels”.
Where is the cut-off? With things like blue hydrogen, there is a crossover: fossil fuels are involved, but the product is not necessarily what you would call a fossil fuel. Where does GB Energy come in?
Juergen Maier: Our core focus will be on renewable energy that is not derived from fossil fuels, to be clear. However, there are obviously energy sources that are part of the transition, and the Bill so allows. Clause 3(2)(b) refers to
“the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions from energy produced from fossil fuels,”
which would include blue hydrogen, for example. I believe that blue hydrogen is necessary as part of the transition, because you just cannot produce enough green hydrogen to get us going from the get-go, so you need a transitional way of getting there, as long as the clear purpose is to see it as a transition to ensure that the future is all green hydrogen.
Harriet Cross
In that respect, we would still need fossil fuels—oil and gas—going forward to help the transition.
Juergen Maier: Of course, yes.
Uma Kumaran
Q
Juergen Maier: It certainly gives me a very clear direction, along with the framework document that we will develop together with the Secretary of State and the Minister. The short answer to your question is that it is pretty clear. The purpose is clear, and that is the most important thing: the purpose, at the end of the day, is that we will accelerate the amount of clean renewable energy that we put on the grid, and that we will create as much prosperity and as many jobs through it as possible.
Pippa Heylings (South Cambridgeshire) (LD)
Q
Juergen Maier: We are seeing pretty good evidence of that right now, aren’t we? At the end of the day, this is now a pretty well-established model for being absolutely state-owned and independently run. “Independently run” means excellent governance, and obviously as start-up chair I am going to ensure that that is the case. That does not all need to be in the Bill, because we know what it means. We have the Companies Act 2006 and numerous Acts about how good governance works. We will ensure through our board and our non-executives that there is proper governance, and of course there will be many opportunities for reviews by the Secretary of State and ultimately for the usual sort of public scrutiny.
The Chair
Order. That is the end of our first panel.
Examination of Witnesses
Mika Minio-Paluello and Mike Clancy gave evidence.
The Chair
We will now hear oral evidence from Mika Minio-Paluello, who is the senior policy officer for industry and climate at the TUC, and Mike Clancy, who is the general secretary of the Prospect union. We have until 10.20 am for this session. Will the witnesses please introduce yourselves—and pronounce your name correctly, which I abjectly failed to do?
Mika Minio-Paluello: No worries; nobody ever gets it right. I am Mika Minio-Paluello and I co-lead on industry, climate and energy for the Trades Union Congress. Thanks for having me.
Mike Clancy: I am Mike Clancy, general secretary of the Prospect trade union. We represent people across the range of public and private sectors, and we have 22,000-plus members in the energy sector.
Andrew Bowie
Q
Mika Minio-Paluello: It is true that trade unions want to see good-quality jobs going forward, and that there are concerns about how we deliver a just transition, because we see the reality that transitions are not easy. To make that happen, we need some levers—some tools that can help to ensure that workers either have their existing jobs future-proofed or have transfers to new places. GB Energy is a tool that can help to make that possible that we currently do not really have in the UK. In France, Norway, Denmark and Germany there are a lot more institutions—the public sector effectively has a bigger stake—and we do not have that.
As Juergen said earlier, GB Energy can be part and parcel of enabling the supply chain growth that we have not seen in recent years, because CfDs have not delivered that as they are. It can also deliver the co-ordinated collective pathways for workforce, as well as upskilling, which does not really happen given the piecemeal way it is working at the moment. It can also play a role by ensuring that renewable jobs will be good jobs, both through procurement and through, in effect, ensuring a race to the top. That is all part of a plan, and what came out of our congress recently was that we need to see a plan. To have that plan, we need institutions like GB Energy.
Andrew Bowie
Q
The Chair
Order. I do not think there is anything in the Bill about jobs, shadow Minister, so I am being steered by the Clerk to get you off the subject. Let us go to Olivia Blake.
Olivia Blake
Q
Mike Clancy: Following on from what Mika said, and as we are focusing on the content of the Bill, we welcome the creation of GB Energy but our concern is that for some time energy policy has been long on rhetoric but short on delivery. By that we mean that, in the context of a just transition, the losses of jobs—
The Chair
Order. The Whips are saying there is something wrong with the mics—nobody can hear me either. You need to speak into the mic because nobody can hear what anyone is saying.
Mike Clancy: It is unusual for a trade union official to be asked to increase their volume; none the less, I will run counter to type and try to do that.
We welcome the creation of GB Energy and we welcome the Bill, but the reality is that communities are facing job losses now. The promise of jobs tomorrow is where the challenge lies. As we are talking about the Bill, I should say that we certainly want to see GB Energy created as an exemplar in terms of social partnership, job creation and turning the promise of quality green jobs into a reality. That is the pathway that the Bill has to provide for communities that are directly affected by technological and other changes. I guess that in other questions we will bring out further things about organisational design, because we certainly have some views on whether the Bill leads to an organisational design that will enable that.
Mika Minio-Paluello: You asked, “Will it ensure?” We very much welcome the Bill, but will it, in itself, ensure a just transition? No. Does it provide a mechanism and a tool that the Secretary of State and the Government can then use to help to deliver that? Yes. We also think the Bill is good because it creates a basis for GB Energy to grow. Ultimately, if we are going to see that successful transition, and all the jobs and the prosperity that we need to see in the UK, GB Energy needs to be on a par with the equivalent companies that we see in other countries, such as Ørsted, Statoil or Equinor, Vattenfall, or EDF. That is a long-term process, and over time, it can be good for workers and it can make the whole country richer.
Stephen Flynn
Q
Mika Minio-Paluello: I mean, you would not build an Ørsted in one, two or five years. ESB, the Irish state-owned company, moved into offshore wind gradually, step by step. It took it about four or five years to get well inthere. We think we should aim to get there by 2040 or 2045. You start somewhere, so you start with the capitalisation. We can all talk about whether the Government could access more borrowing, and the fiscal heritage, but you can start with that. It will not be on that scale by 2030, but it can put in place the mechanisms and a plan so that by 2040 or 2045, we are a more powerful and richer country because we are finally on a par with our peers.
Mike Clancy: We have made some commentary about the treatment of public debt and this space in relation to GB Energy, and whether the debt rules, which are subject to current debate, should be adjusted so that public investment companies are appropriately excluded because they will provide a return to the Exchequer. We are also interested in the structure of GBE arising from the Bill in this regard. Clearly it is going to be a public investment vehicle, but if it is going to be an operator like Ørsted and so on—obviously we heard Juergen talk about the nature of the assets that it may bring under its control—these are significant engineering assets and propositions. If you are going to build a company in that respect, you had better start now, and you had better think about the labour markets in which you are going to obtain the skills, which are very competitive. I could keep you all morning talking about how that will not happen if it is constrained by public sector pay constraints.
A serious point is that there is more than one pathway for this entity, and if it is going to have a dual pathway, it needs to be thought through pretty early. That is because realising the floating offshore wind proposition—whatever sea it may be in—is a very significant endeavour, requiring an operational, management, engineering, construction, planning, and indeed operating capacity that need to be thought about right now, at the Bill stage.
Andrew Pakes
Q
Mike Clancy: Andrew, you are absolutely right. There are various things that need to be brought together that the Bill itself probably needs to consider, in terms of the skills profile generally and other forms of generation that are within this space. There is going to be an office of nuclear jobs developed by the Secretary of State, and so on. Our view is that it comes down to the extent to which the Bill can specify that GB Energy should be an exemplar company, and that it sets objectives for its board in relation to not only its community engagement, but how it conducts its processes to ensure that the short-termism that sometimes emerges from the private sector form of energy ownership is not characterised by a public company, which should be an absolute champion in these areas.
It comes down to governance and to the objectives and how they are set for a public company, and knitting them into the other parts of the skills landscape. That is why I also make the point—not in a usual trade union way, may I say—that we have to think about the labour markets in which GBE is going to play because they are very tight and very demanding, and there is a whole range of infrastructure that this country needs to invest in to deliver the growth mission.
Mika Minio-Paluello: There is good practice to learn from other countries: from Ørsted, Statoil—now Equinor —and Statkraft. They took a proactive role and identified where they thought the country needed to be in 10 years —not just where they might need to be from a minimalist, reactive position, but where the country needed to be—and then how to invest for the long run in those skills.
The Chair
Order. The Clerk is saying that we are straying from the scope of the Bill. We are okay for time because we have until 10.20 am, but it is getting a bit hypothetical about what will happen on top of the Bill, which, I am being told, is not really allowed.
Harriet Cross
Q
Mike Clancy: I am not sure. As extensive as the powers of Parliament are, I am not sure a Bill in itself can give any of those guarantees. I am not trying to avoid an answer; the reality is that the Bill will set up a company with certain objectives, and those objectives should address directly the generation of employment. You have already heard and asked questions about how many jobs there will be in Aberdeen, what that will scale up to, and what it will mean in terms of the supply chain.
We are seeing a lot of very considerable numbers in a lot of different energy spaces: potentially great demand and very high-quality jobs in both the public space and the private ownership of utilities. But it is all promise. Some of the numbers are so significant in aggregate that you have to wonder where they are going to come from, because there is pressure on different parts of the infrastructure. There are lots of synergies between this sector and others—the skills are the same in aviation, defence and so on—and the basic throughput of science, technology, engineering and maths skills in this country is a long-term inhibitor to our productivity and our delivery. In terms of the narrow focus of the Bill, this organisation needs to be the stimulus for that supply chain, with good employment conditions throughout.
One of the issues in a just transition is that you replace public and private structured, high-quality jobs with jobs that are flimsier, more fragile and more temporary. If GB Energy can be a champion for long-term, durable relationships with its workforce—and that is how you want the energy sector to go—that is your best bet for having the jobs promise to replace those that have to be removed due to the climate impact.
Mika Minio-Paluello: The easiest solution is to keep someone working in their current workplace, precisely because, as Mike explained, there is a significant risk that, in shifting across, you end up with more precarious work. A lot of the onshore supply chain for offshore oil and gas has been struggling; we have seen a big decline over the past 14 years both within the supply chain and directly. Chunks of that supply chain can be future-proofed to support offshore wind and other parts, and GB Energy has a significant role to play in supporting those supply chain sites. Whether it is Shepherd Offshore, Smulders or cable manufacturers, GB Energy should say, “We will be purchasing from you, and not just from China.” There is a big risk of China coming to dominate the offshore wind supply chain. We could end up in a situation with offshore wind like the one with solar at the moment, where if you buy a solar panel, it is 97% made in China. GB Energy can play a role in making sure the offshore wind supply chain is situated here, and that is part of the protection.
The other part is about what could be done in the Bill, although it will not necessarily protect jobs—Mike is right; the Bill itself cannot entirely protect individual jobs. In our submission, we suggest that there could be an amendment to the strategic priorities section and that the statement of strategic priorities should have regard for a just transition, job equality and job creation. It should be embedded as a core part of the statement so that, when the Secretary of State sits down to prepare it, they go, “Okay, part of what we are going to put in here is about a just transition, job equality and job creation.” That is a possible amendment.
We have also suggested an amendment on protection, particularly given that a lot of the job creation and economic impact will be in Wales and Scotland, so the Bill will play an important role for those nations. That means that those nations should probably have a say, through their devolved Governments, on what happens down the line to GB Energy. Let us say that down the line a future Government goes, “Well, actually we are going to privatise it,” or, “We are going to instruct it to dispose of a lot of assets,” Scotland and Wales should be able to have a say and go, “Well actually, this is about our economy here and we think that shouldn’t happen.” We suggest doing that through an amendment but you could explore different mechanisms, including golden shares for those devolved Governments that specifically say that.
The Chair
Order. Sorry, but I did tell off the shadow Minister for talking about jobs when they are not in the Bill. I think we are straying quite a fair distance away. We are meant to stick within the scope of the contents of the Bill. With that in mind, a brilliant example will be Josh MacAlister.
Josh MacAlister
Q
Mike Clancy: We are always dealing with very long-term propositions when it comes to energy assets. Whether it is public or private, you need stable investment conditions so that the entity can build confidence and recruit the staff it needs to deliver its mission. I will keep coming back to this: it is an extremely challenging space if you create uncertainty, and even more so for a public entity, in terms of whether high-calibre people wish to commit their energies and talents in what is a globally competitive environment for their skills.
The most important thing we can do is create that stable investment circumstance. For Government, that means accepting the different challenges there are fiscally and in terms of spending. We would say that there can be no successful transition without a nuclear component, and we are obviously advocates of that. Therefore, we are strong advocates of Great British Nuclear. It will need to have—shall we say—that ability to operate within its own circumstances. Nuclear is particular; it has to be done to time and cost, and that is the big issue. The most important thing that the Bill can do is ensure that you have that stable investment and that you make the commitment.
I have been around for a little while. I have probably been involved in more nuclear and energy renaissances than anyone else in the room put together, and I think we need to get to the actual renaissance and get building. If you can give that stability, people will come to this because they are mission-driven, committed individuals who will want to be part of that renaissance.
Wera Hobhouse
Q
Mike Clancy: The simple answer is yes. The longer there is a concept phase, albeit a positive concept phase, the more that we are talking about a multiplier effect from GBE in many respects. If GBE is delivered, starts to operate and gives confidence to the direction of energy policy, other investors will see this as a serious proposition and therefore we will be engaging in this huge process of energy transition.
As I said just a moment ago, it also means that talented people can see a future. We want to be part of that. So, within the process of parliamentary drafting, the more that we have a clear set of objectives—actually differentiating it as a public entity and setting the tone for what you want from energy assets in the future—the better, because that will give that confidence. That also has a knock-on effect for the confidence of private investors in other parts of the energy environment.
Uma Kumaran
Q
Mika Minio-Paluello: There is a lot of demand at the moment, and a part of the challenge is a significant lack of supply. Part of the reason for that lack of supply is that there is a lack of investment. We as a country have not invested into our workforce sufficiently over time, which is why you get into a situation where different sectors effectively end up poaching people who are most in demand.
GB Energy provides a mechanism as part of solving that. It will not solve it as a whole—the Government have other plans as well to try put that investment in— but it can have a significant role in going, “Yes, here, we are going to provide that long-term investment directly.” Also, clearly, GB Energy will be partnering with the private sector. In that co-operation, it can then say, through its procurement powers, “Okay, in our joint project on this big offshore wind farm, we are going to require the supply chain across the board to be investing into apprenticeships, whether that is one, two or three tiers down,” so that we get that overall growth. It therefore can play a significant role there.
Mike Clancy: I have already touched on this. It might sound strange, but we probably have a bit of a mission at present because of the constraints applied by the previous Administration to remove our members in technical occupations in the energy field from the public sphere, because the labour markets that they operate in reward better in the private sector. The private sector is in a war for talent in this area because, in this country, over the many decades, we have not valued STEM skills and engineering. I speak as a humanities graduate who is always in awe of people who actually go to institutions and learn things that matter and are then applied for the health of the nation.
We have to start with valuing STEM—valuing it on a diverse basis, ensuring that the workforce reflects our diversity objectives more generally—and having a clear understanding that, even within Government, there can be an element of robbing one to pay for the other, such as with defence and aviation. Lots of areas need these STEM skills, which are then easily transferable into digital skills, and there are better salaries for some of those elsewhere.
If you want to deliver that promise about high-quality jobs, you really have to think and have a labour-market strategy for GB Energy that works in this competitive context at all levels—from apprenticeship, through to technical, through to engineering and even through to doctoral level. Again, in terms of the direction and objectives of the Bill, it is about being an exemplar for the entire energy sector in relation to the skills matrix, with how people are employed and the diversity objectives that any public company should have. That is what the Bill should try to address in sufficient detail.
The Chair
Order. Just a reminder again that we are talking about what is in the Bill—not blue-sky thinking about what GB Energy might do and that kind of stuff.
Andrew Bowie
Q
“the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy”
should include nuclear energy—very important to your members, Mr Clancy. But to build on the point from the hon. Member for Whitehaven and Workington, I think there is a lack of clarity in the Bill at the minute over the operational independence and the autonomy of Great British Nuclear. Are you seeking that from the Government? Is it something that we should seek to have in the Bill as it moves through Committee?
Mike Clancy: That is not just in terms of the Bill, I think; the actual future of Great British Nuclear has a degree of uncertainty around it, per se, because, again—I am in danger of repeating myself—we have been here before. I used to be a member of the Nuclear Industry Council some moons ago, and we are rightly evangelists for our members, who deliver nuclear energy. We recognise that there are lots of controversies down the back end, in terms of decommissioning, but nuclear is an essential part of the future energy mix and the achievement of our climate goals. Therefore, there has to be a range of certainties in response—that is not a glib remark at all—and, in the GB Energy area, it is about companies knowing that they can invest and get the return. The Bill needs to be consistent with that.
Stephen Flynn
Q
Mika Minio-Paluello: My understanding is that it is not currently in there, but it will be contained in the statement of strategic priorities. There are questions about how much should be added in. We understand that the logic is that the Bill will create an enabling vehicle—it will enable GB Energy to act and do things—so is it useful to put in many, many limitations? Probably not, because adding in too much detail will slow it down. Is it, on the other hand, useful to put in a clause that says that the statement of strategic priorities should have regard to a just transition and job creation? That could be a consideration.
Stephen Flynn
Q
Mika Minio-Paluello: Bringing energy bills down is a complicated process that depends on lots of things, including—
Stephen Flynn
Q
Mike Clancy: I suppose my response would be, “How could it be within the Bill?”
Mika Minio-Paluello: Theoretically, the Bill could say, “We will cap energy bills at a certain level,” but it would not be part of GB Energy’s role to cap energy.
Mike Clancy: You cannot divorce this from the fact that GB Energy will operate in a still-privatised energy asset environment, and consequently there are much broader questions about how bills are composed, the energy mix and so on. Those issues are not in the Bill, and I am sure the Chair would stop me going down that path. But I was the field official in energy, so if anyone wants to talk about that we can spend hours on it and the construction of the energy sector. I understand why you asked the question, but GB Energy is one entity within a much broader firmament of energy assets, owned in different ways.
Mika Minio-Paluello: Does the Bill enable the creation of a company that can, over time, grow to be something like EDF, Ørsted or Vattenfall? EDF brought bills down significantly during the energy crisis, when we had soaring bills. Does the Bill create the capacity to do that? Yes.
Mike Clancy: Often the focus in energy policy is on retail, because it affects domestic consumers more than wholesale when things are going a certain way. The biggest thing for us—we represent engineering and science staff—is where the generation is going to come from, what is going down the pipes and how we ensure that consistently and for the long term so that we have energy security and energy down those lines at a competitive price. Clearly, a public sector champion in that regard can be a significant contributor to changing the trajectory of energy prices and giving us indigenous energy security.
The Chair
Well, we are not going to fill the time for the sake of it. If you have a genuine question—
Stephen Flynn
Q
For full clarity, you have clarified that it is possible for these things to happen—I do not think anyone would disagree with that—but as it stands the Bill does not provide any certainty about any of those points.
The Chair
Order. Is this a repeat of the previous question? I think—[Interruption.] Okay, there is a minute left. Go on.
Stephen Flynn
Again, just for clarity—because you pushed back and said that EDF brought down bills—there is nothing in this Bill, unless you tell me otherwise, that says that GB Energy will do likewise. Is that correct?
Mika Minio-Paluello: I do not think it forces GB Energy to do likewise, but I doubt the legislation that set up EDF forced it to do that. I think it probably set up EDF as a company to operate and gave it freedom to act. The question for Members is: “What do we do to enable the UK to finally be on a par with our peers elsewhere?” Does this create a basis for that? Yes. Then, yes, can you please push and hold the Government to account—
The Chair
Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask this section of questions. I thank our witnesses on behalf of the Committee.
Examination of Witnesses
Shaun Spiers, Ravi Gurumurthy and Marc Hedin gave evidence.
The Chair
We will now hear oral evidence from our third panel. We have Shaun Spiers, executive director of Green Alliance, Ravi Gurumurthy, chief executive officer of Nesta, and Marc Hedin, head of UK and Ireland research at Aurora Energy Research. We have until 11 am for this session. Could the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Shaun Spiers: I am Shaun Spiers, executive director of Green Alliance, a think-tank and charity committed to environmental leadership.
Marc Hedin: I am Marc Hedin, head of research for UK and Ireland at Aurora Energy Research. We are a power market analytics company.
Ravi Gurumurthy: I am Ravi Gurumurthy. I am the CEO of Nesta and the behavioural insights team. Nesta designs, tests and scales solutions to big societal problems, including sustainability.
Andrew Pakes
Q
Marc Hedin: I think we can reflect a little bit on the role of Great British Energy here. One of the areas for innovation is around investments in less mature technologies. It is one of the roles that was highlighted in the founding statement, published in July earlier this year. There is a role for that, but I would argue that there is also a possibility for dedicated schemes to deploy capital in less mature technologies. For instance, with regards to long-duration energy storage, we had a consultation earlier this year, generally welcomed by the industry, which looked into implementing a sort of capital flow regime to promote investment into long-duration energy storage. There is a role for GB Energy here, but there are also alternative routes that are potentially less capital-intensive.
The second aspect, touched on earlier, is around supply chain. There is huge scope here for Great British Energy, where, out of all its potential roles, it may provide the best value for money. In GB, the domestic supply chain has not generally benefited that much from the high level of renewable build-out that we have seen in the past decade or so. There is a role for providing visibility to the supply chain, and implementing innovation into the supply chain more generally in the energy sector.
Ravi Gurumurthy: If you think about different barriers to innovation, I think three stand out. One is co-ordination challenges; second is the provision of certain public goods, such as ports infrastructure, which are critical to investment; and third is risk appetite. I think GB Energy can potentially address all those in different ways.
On the risk side, co-investing—particularly in the novel technologies that Marc mentioned—can accelerate that innovation. Secondly, on things such as ports infrastructure, having a body that is trying to do whatever it takes to solve some of the co-ordination issues and the dependencies on public inputs can drive that innovation.
One other thing I would mention is that Government have a role, and have increasingly played a more co-ordinated role, in driving directed R&D through the net zero panel. I think Government can be better at that, if they are more informed, and one of the things I think GB Energy will do is to give a stronger insight into the constraints and opportunities in the market, and therefore potentially inform Government’s ability to drive innovation in a smarter way.
Shaun Spiers: I obviously agree with all that. The really difficult thing about clean power by 2030 is the last 10% or 20%. It is clear that the market on its own, at the moment, will not provide that, and just adding renewables and grid will not provide it. What GB Energy provides is the potential to invest in things like pump hydropower, compressed air and new technologies that we are going to need. That is going to be essential to achieving the 2030 power decarbonisation.
Perran Moon
Q
Shaun Spiers: It is really quite hard to see how the UK will be able to decarbonise power generation, certainly by 2030. By 2035 was really ambitious and by 2030 is even more ambitious, so you do need a vehicle of this sort to crowd in investment and to give a really clear sense of direction to overseas investors and other investors who are looking for places to put their money. This gives a huge impetus to that mission. It is easy to set targets, but unless you have a vehicle to deliver them, they are going to be impossible to achieve. GB Energy is the key vehicle. I would say it is essential.
Ravi Gurumurthy: Nesta and Boehringer co-authored a report that I was part of, which included some of the time and cost savings that we think GB Energy can deliver—for instance, the role of GB Energy as what we call the pre-developer, where the Crown Estate takes on this role of basically preparing the sites, doing the planning consents, doing the grid connection and doing the environmental surveys before having potentially a single auction process rather than the current dual auction process. We thought that would reduce the time of getting offshore wind built by two to four years. We also produced some cost savings from doing that, including some reduction in rents. We think this institution can deliver genuine improvements in terms of time and cost.
I would not just stop at the vantage point of 2030, because although I think this will make some impact on 2030, remember that we have to double electricity capacity in this country if we are going to electrify heating and transport, so the 10 years beyond 2030 are just as important. I think GB Energy is an institution for the long term, not just for the next five years.
The Chair
I am being reminded again that we should focus on what is in the Bill; I know we can extrapolate what might happen. Next we go to Olivia Blake.
Olivia Blake
Q
Shaun Spiers: We have concerns about the huge powers given to the Secretary of State in the Bill. Clause 5(2) says:
“The Secretary of State may revise or replace the statement.”
A subsequent Secretary of State could significantly revise the aims of GB Energy. We think that the statement should be consulted on. We would propose an addition or amendment to say that the Secretary of State must consult anybody likely to be affected by the statement, or such bodies as considered appropriate by the Secretary of State— something like that, just to say that there should be more scrutiny so that the Secretary of State cannot simply change the aims of GB Energy in the way it is currently set out.
Ravi Gurumurthy: I run an innovation organisation, and the hallmark of good innovation, or of good companies, is that they pivot and adapt. I know that it is sometimes challenging to set up an institution like GB Energy and not lock down all the parameters, but actually that is critical. There are issues and barriers that we do not even know yet, and I think it is important that this organisation can do whatever it takes to achieve the mission, even if we cannot right now identify exactly every single aspect of its role.
Marc Hedin: I would echo that message that the role of Great British Energy is very broad and is being defined as we speak. That is what we in this room, but also the people working for Great British Energy, are doing at the moment. It could also change in the future as the challenges of energy administration evolve. I therefore think it makes sense for the Bill to provide present and future flexibility in scope.
That being said, there are two points or questions that should potentially be answered. First, what are the governance arrangements to ensure that Great British Energy carries out its duties and focuses on its remit? Part of the answer could be that it should be ensured that Great British Energy provides additionality and works with stakeholders, which is what Shaun Spiers mentioned. Secondly, since Great British Energy’s role is primarily to fill gaps in the market, it would be useful to assess its effectiveness there. Clause 7 only mentions an annual rendition of financial accounts, and there is no mention of effectiveness or impact. Reflecting on the possible roles of Great British Energy, some, such as speeding up project delivery, will lead to value added for the whole system but not necessarily additional revenues for Great British Energy. Financial accounts may only tell part of the story, and there is a need for more comprehensive reporting, in my view.
Shaun Spiers: If I may, just quickly: to require consultation on the strategic priorities if they are going to change radically should not be too onerous.
Pippa Heylings
Q
Can you explain a little more your concerns? First, given that innovation needs to pivot, but also given that we are being asked to allow for the objects to be so broad to allow for flexibility within them, Shaun, can you explain a little more why you think there should be consultation on such broad objects? Secondly, can you discuss any concerns you may have around environmental requirements for what GB Energy is going to do? That is also absent at the moment from the objects of the Bill.
Shaun Spiers: On the concern about the ability of subsequent Secretaries of State simply to change the strategic direction of the organisation, you can look at recent history to know that there can be radical changes. It does not seem to me to be too demanding; it is just good governance to suggest that that should be consulted on, and that you do not give absolute powers to a Secretary of State to do that. I do not see that as a particular constraint on innovation; I just think of that as good governance.
The Chair is keen that we do not lever in lots of other things on the Bill, but there is a concern. Clearly, 2030 power decarbonisation is an imperative and we need to achieve net zero, but we also have a nature crisis and there are concerns about whether GB Energy will seek to enhance nature or whether nature will take second place. Both the Secretary of State and Chris Stark, the head of mission control, have emphasised that there will be a role for considerations of nature in energy planning. But, again, that is not in the Bill, and it would be nice to see it there or to see some statement to that effect from the Dispatch Box to ensure that it is central to how GB Energy will behave. There are lots of public companies that do not prioritise nature—they prioritise bills or the delivery of their main objective—and we see the consequence of that, for instance, in the water industry.
Josh MacAlister
Q
Ravi Gurumurthy: It is a very challenging question. As you know, good intentions in this area often do not translate. You can mandate and say you want to operate with risk appetite, but it does not really translate into behaviour. What do I think are some of the components? The capitalisation of GB Energy is really important, because that gives it some degree of resource to take risks. I am quite interested in whether, as well as investing in novel technologies with a high-risk appetite, GB Energy can either take cashless equity stakes or invest in more established technologies, because if you have a more balanced portfolio, it might give you the ability to take risks in some aspects.
That gets you into a conversation about the fiscal rules. The one thing I would say about this area is that if you compare offshore wind and other established energy technologies with roads or hospitals, the big difference in my mind is that for offshore wind we will build those wind farms whether the state invests or not, and we will pay as consumers, whereas roads and hospitals will not get built if the state does not. The point is that we are going to pay for it, and we will pay more through private sector borrowing than we will through the state.
The second big difference is that unlike a road or a hospital, there was a guaranteed revenue stream through a contract for difference, so there is a really good rationale for why we should not have fiscal rules that bias us towards 100% private sector borrowing, rather than the state either taking a cashless equity stake via this development process or actually investing. If you do that, it will give GB Energy the ability to then take risks on the much more novel aspects of the portfolio and have failures. If GB Energy does not have failures, it will not be doing its job.
Harriet Cross
Q
Marc Hedin: I may be playing devil’s advocate here, but there is a slight risk if a public company were to invest in a utility scale project. At the moment in GB, we manage to attract quite a lot of capital to deploy renewable projects, for instance. There is also a risk of perceived unfair competition that would be detrimental to future capital attractiveness, so I would add that to the global reflection around this topic.
Ravi Gurumurthy: To come in on that, it is very common in other countries for the state to co-invest. I have spoken to a lot of other organisations, and we need to attract £350 billion to £500 billion of capital into power generation in the next 10 years. I think it is perfectly possible for the state to play a role in that. Everything that GB Energy is trying to do is to reduce the risk and increase the predictability of the investment environment. If you take the developer role, at the moment the private sector, when it bids in for a seabed lease, has to have the uncertainty of whether that project will ever get commissioned and the long delay in planning and consenting, grid connection and environmental surveys. If we can actually have the state do some of that and de-risk it, I think it is more likely to get that private sector investment. That is what happens in the Netherlands and it is what the Danes are moving towards, and it is also partly what happens in Germany. There is a good track record of these sorts of environments working well to attract private sector investment.
Shaun Spiers: That is right. You cannot dictate the culture of a company in a Bill. There was a criticism of the Green Investment Bank, for instance, that it invested in rather established technologies and had an insufficiently high appetite for risk. It will be important that GB Energy does pump-prime private investment and not replace it.
Torcuil Crichton
Q
Shaun Spiers: Ravi has written the report on it.
Ravi Gurumurthy: Your question is: what can it do to drive private sector investment?
Torcuil Crichton
Yes, what can the Bill and GB Energy itself do?
Ravi Gurumurthy: I have already articulated what it can do on the development side to get rid of some of the risks to do with planning, consenting, grid connection and so on. On the more novel technologies—small modular reactors, floating wind, tidal range and so on—I think we have also talked about how if the state is co-investing in some way, it signals a degree of commitment and insulates companies slightly from the risks. In both the investor and developer roles, GB Energy can play a role in accelerating things. The biggest way in which the state can de-risk investment and increase private sector contribution is through the National Energy System Operator, providing a clear, strategic plan and forward visibility of what is happening in terms of technology and location. That is how I think we will get the investment—not just in the assets, but in the supply chain as well.
Shaun Spiers: On clean, flexible power, what Green Alliance has proposed is a sort of vaccine taskforce-style operation to crowd in all potential technologies for this. It is not clear who would fund it, if GB Energy did not. That is a really important part of 2030 power decarbonisation. There is also the local power plan. The previous Government had a plan—I think it was in 2014—to power 1 million homes by community energy, which was abandoned four years later with about 67,000 homes powered. There is a clear remit here for making community energy economically viable and getting local investment in community energy.
Wera Hobhouse
Q
Shaun Spiers: I think a nature recovery or nature protection duty in the Bill would be helpful in reassuring communities. The investment in community energy, where people really have a stake in the energy, will take some of the sting out of the opposition to renewables, but I would not overload the Bill with things that are better dealt with in the planning system. This is a Bill to enable a lot of investment in achieving a decarbonised power system and long-term energy security. To try to overload it with things that are best dealt with in other parts of government, or other legislation, would be a mistake.
Wera Hobhouse
So the Bill is sufficient in protecting communities?
Shaun Spiers: I would like to see a nature recovery duty in the Bill.
Catherine Fookes
Q
Shaun Spiers: One thing that is necessary to say is that this is a major part of the transition and a priority of the Government. That was the case for periods during the coalition, when there was a really vibrant community energy movement and a sense in which people were coming around to supporting renewable energy—which otherwise they would have opposed—because they could see they had a financial stake in it but had also been engaged in developing it. What snuffed that out had more to do with planning issues than with investment, but there are ways in which GB Energy can pump-prime some of the investment.
I am trying to think back to the community energy manifesto we put together in 2018. I cannot think of any specific things, but I can write to the Committee, if that is helpful. There are specific financial incentives that would help get this off the ground. To be honest, though, communities across the country were really keen on community energy. It was a vibrant movement and could be again, with the right political framework as much as investment.
Uma Kumaran
Q
Ravi Gurumurthy: You have to think about this as a whole package. If you have absolute clarity and conviction around the 2030 decarbonisation target and the pathway beyond that, and if you translate that intent into a strategic plan—with clarity about the technologies and their location through the NESO—and if you then have an enabling, activating agency like GB Energy clearing away some of the barriers, then the combination of that overall ambition, that plan and GB Energy does I think hugely accelerate investments into the sector. But you have got to do all three.
Marc Hedin: I think that is right. I think there are two key components here. One is identifying gaps in the market, where Great British Energy can provide a lot of value and can reinforce confidence from investors, and thinking hard about where it makes sense for Great British Energy to invest. We have mentioned points like local power plans, innovative technologies. I think there is a range of areas in which it makes a lot of sense for the state to co-invest through Great British Energy to develop those industries. The last point is around supply chain, to really support the whole energy transition.
Shaun Spiers: I agree with that. This is a part of a bigger picture. We keep coming back to the scope of the Bill. The Bill, in its objects, talks about
“measures for ensuring the security of supply of energy”
One area that really has not been given sufficient attention is critical raw materials, where we import 100% and then we export 100% for recycling elsewhere. There are 37 lithium recycling factories in the EU but none in the UK. This is the sort of industry that Great British Energy could help pump-prime, if that is seen as within its scope.
Stephen Flynn
Q
Shaun Spiers: I think the more that can be done to set out the strategic priorities, the better. I do not think it necessarily needs to be in the Bill. The explanatory statement and the introductions and so on I think do give a reasonably good steer on what the strategic priorities are, but obviously this body is being set up at pace. The more clarity there is on what it is going to do, the better. I would not set unreasonable expectations of a body that is being set up really quickly, with a pretty clear short-term aim of 2030 power decarbonisation and of supporting that. However, in the longer term the priorities clearly need to be set out.
Ravi Gurumurthy: The NESO will be producing its plan in October, and you have then got the next carbon budget in February, so the actual pathway to 2030 and to 2050 will start to become even clearer in the coming months. It will need to be flexible, however. There will be technologies which emerge that shift our sense of what to focus on. You need priorities, but you do need quite a lot of flexibility in this system.
Marc Hedin: I made the point, I think, at the very beginning that we need a very flexible scope because there will be challenges to the energy transition. We need room to adapt. If this vehicle is to facilitate the energy transition, we need that scope to be relatively broad. I did mention a couple of safeguards, more like accountability, and I think that is still reasonable to ask. However, in terms of strategic priorities, I think the scope is broad enough and makes sense.
Perran Moon
Q
Shaun Spiers: By investing in it. It is more a question of the recycling, because there is a big recycling industry elsewhere. When the UK was the pioneer in offshore wind, it was easy to import critical raw materials and then not bother about reusing them and just import more. As the Foreign Secretary was talking about in his speech at Kew, there are now real concerns about the shortage of critical raw materials across the world. Because they are needed for so many technologies, and so many technologies that are essential to the transition, we need a plan for the transition that includes recycling plants. Lithium mining in Cornwall is great, but we also need not be exporting our critical raw materials to be repurposed elsewhere, and then reimporting the repurposed ones. There are 37 recycling plants in the EU, while in China there were 61 waste lithium battery recycling and processing companies two years ago, and it is a growing industry. It has not grown in the UK, it has not had attention, and I think that if GB Energy is committed to long-term energy security, which it is, then it could play a part in getting that industry going in the UK.
The Chair
We are straying quite far from the scope of the Bill. It is an interesting discussion, and it could carry on offline afterwards, but it is not within the scope of this Bill. Are there any more questions? If there are no further questions from Committee members, I thank the witnesses for their evidence.
Examination of Witnesses
Dan McGrail and Adam Berman gave evidence.
The Chair
Welcome to our fourth and final panel this morning. We will now hear oral evidence from Dan McGrail, CEO of RenewableUK, and Adam Berman, who is director of policy at Energy UK. For this session we have until 11.25 am. There are questions at 11.30 am in the Chamber—I have one myself.
The Chair
A few of us have. Okay, if we finish early, we have more time to leg it over there. Please could the witnesses introduce themselves.
Dan McGrail: Good morning everybody, my name is Dan McGrail, I am the chief executive of RenewableUK, which is a trade association representing the wind industry predominantly, but also the tidal energy sector and crucially, the supply chain that sits within that. We have about 500 member companies across the UK and we work closely with devolved Administrations and national Government.
Adam Berman: Good morning. My name is Adam Berman, I am director of policy and advocacy at Energy UK, which represents the whole of the energy sector really, short of upstream oil and gas extraction—everything from all the forms of generation, right through the networks and into household level. We represent the retail energy suppliers as well.
Andrew Bowie
Q
Dan McGrail: It is good to see you too, shadow Minister. First, I think there is a trade-off in legislation like this, between the focus you want to provide, and the guard rails put into the Bill, and giving the entrepreneurial freedom to the organisation to invest where opportunities arise. We believe, and the report we wrote prior to the release of this was quite clear, that focus is important, but is legislation the place to put the focus? Our view is that the business plan that is set up and put in place by the chief executive and their team, once appointed, is the place to put that focus. It will be much more predictable if it is developed by experts in the sector who have conducted a thorough analysis of where the opportunities are for investment, and where the real additionality is.
One additional point that is important to detail in the statement, when it comes, is how the investment priorities of GB Energy would be different from those of the private sector. Would GB Energy take a longer view on returns on investment? Would it have a different rate of return? That would help to clarify the role of GB Energy within the ecosystem of the sector and with other private investors so that there is understanding of where real partnership opportunities lie.
In short, the answer to your question is that it is important to have a focus, but do the focus in the plan rather than in the legislation.
Adam Berman: I certainly agree with Dan. My one reservation with the legislation is that GB Energy will face two distinct competing priorities: the first is making money, which would probably primarily come from established mature renewables, and the second is solving distinct problems within the energy system that are a result of market failures. There is some overlap—although not complete overlap— between those two priorities. The question is whether there should be more clarity in the legislation over which strategic objective GB Energy should be solving. That is not an issue for industry to resolve, but it is something that, without stronger guidance in the legislation, GB Energy may struggle to reconcile once it is formed.
Andrew Bowie
Q
Adam Berman: I do not think there is a deficit in terms of accountability, and I do not think there are 500 bodies that should be consulted before any decision is made by GB Energy; if you look at things like the planning system and statutory consultees, you can see how that is an issue. That being said, there is a list of organisations that any Secretary of State should consult, through their due diligence, which is everyone from the National Energy System Operator to the Climate Change Committee to industry to devolved Administrations. We would very much assume that the Secretary of State and the Department would do that due diligence themselves. However, I do not think shackling GB Energy through the legislation to having to do that to make every decision is necessarily the right approach.
Dan McGrail: I fully agree with that.
Olivia Blake
Q
Dan McGrail: From my perspective, the definition is probably good enough. It is quite tricky to go too narrow and say renewable energy only, because there are certain areas, such as long duration storage, where the sector would like GB Energy to participate in, or at least to have the freedom to participate in, which, if it is too narrowly constrained or defined, may prove problematic later down the line.
One thing I think would be advantageous in the definition, or in the objects, is to clearly set out the guard rails, such as ensuring the carbon budgets are referenced. If we reference the carbon budgets, future Secretaries of State would need to make sure that any investments that were made were in line with the delivery of the carbon budgets. That is comparable to what was done with the set-up of the Green Investment Bank, where there were specific references to what the Secretary of State would need to go back to primary legislation to change, and what would be foreseeable within secondary legislation—not directing the Green Investment Bank to invest in fossil fuels, for example, would have required a complete change of mandate. I think some similar thinking, therefore, would be helpful here.
Adam Berman: I do not completely agree. I do not think there is a big problem of definition, but I would say that we need to ensure it is consistent with the CCC’s existing language and with the technologies that it thinks are consistent with the sixth carbon budget. Clean energy may encapsulate all of them, but I think we would have to make sure that it includes established mature renewables, nuclear, carbon capture, utilisation and storage and hydrogen, just to leave those options on the table. I do not disagree with Dan that there needs to be a focus, but GB Energy needs to at least be given the option to engage in the technologies where it thinks there may be additionality in terms of bringing in GBE’s involvement.
Pippa Heylings
Q
Adam Berman: Clearly I agree that they are of incredible importance when it comes to planning the energy system and that the dialogue with them about the local communities that they know better than anyone else is pivotal. The challenge is that for GB Energy, as far as I understand it, a major part of it is local power plans, which will already have involved close consultation with local authorities and communities in lots of different ways.
From an industry perspective, I would be hesitant about placing that as a condition on GB Energy’s investment. That is not to diminish its importance; it is just to ensure that we are allowing GB Energy to be successful and that we are not holding it back. There is a very good argument that that should be included in the legislation, and that the national energy system operator and the Climate Change Committee should be included in the legislation, but once we have gone through all those bodies, it starts to become prohibitive for the investment process, which we want to be free and fair for GB Energy. We are therefore slightly hesitant about saying that we necessarily have to look to any particular body for consultation.
Pippa Heylings
Q
Adam Berman: That is a really good point. I think that there could be something in the legislation to ensure that GB Energy’s investments are consistent not only with the local area energy planning, but with the strategic spatial energy planning that the energy system operator is doing.
Dan McGrail: There is a really important point here about how, to be successful in the market, GB Energy will need to engage with those processes anyway. There will be accountability around the company, but one nervousness I have is about trying to put too much into the Bill specifically on GB Energy. I agree that the point should be about complying with the things that we need to deal with, whether those are in law, in programmes such as the strategic spatial energy plan or in the work of the national system operator. Those are all interconnected and contiguous pieces of a system in which GB Energy needs to be able to operate effectively. The onus, if we put anything in legislation, is to be compliant with all that.
Torcuil Crichton
Q
Dan McGrail: I firmly stand by the idea that GB Energy, at least in its initial phase, should do three or four things excellently, with some fundamental underpinning. It should champion the UK supply chain; it should act to promote skills; it should enable innovation. The market segments in which it operates should be focused on and defined early. Its budget of £8.3 billion is a lot of money, but to get value from that in the context of the energy sector, GB Energy needs to focus on two or three areas in which it can really deliver additionality. I think the place for that is in the business plan, rather than in the legislation. As the legislation is currently framed, it allows the team the space, when they begin the work of the company, to define those two or three areas; it does not narrow them down. My view is that the legislation as drafted gives it that space.
Josh MacAlister
Q
Dan McGrail: Occupying space where there is a highly liquid market for private capital is unlikely to bring much additionality. Offshore wind is one of those places —fixed-bottom offshore wind, to be precise. That is a mature market; there is capital that will flow to projects if the wider investment conditions of those projects are right, and that is more Government policy-related. However, there are other markets. For example, onshore wind in England has basically been under-invested in for the past decade. There will still be nervousness within the private sector: “Do I want to be the first developer to test local planning? What does the risk profile of that look like?”
I see a clear role for GB Energy to partner with the private sector to help to accelerate the return of investment in that market, or for example within the growth of the floating offshore wind market, where there are clear opportunities that go beyond just the energy sector and into transition, such as floating offshore wind in Scotland or in the Celtic sea, where we know that there is a much bigger economic growth story. Those are areas where I think we could see public and private capital working very comfortably together.
Wera Hobhouse
Q
Adam Berman: A fundamental conundrum with GB Energy will be the extent to which, through legislation, you want to constrain its investment activities. Clearly, from an industry perspective, we are very keen that there be an emphasis on additionality, on complementing and not duplicating private sector capital that is already there.
Dan mentioned wind. The recent CfD allocation round 6 auction crowded in about £20 billion of private sector investment—that is one year and one auction. That is not to say that £8.3 billion capitalised over a Parliament is not a significant sum of money; it is to say that if we want the most bang for buck, it is absolutely about thinking about those areas where it can be complementary to the private sector. On the one hand I am saying that, yes, industry would be very happy for GB Energy to have that as a focus, but it is also fair to say that it would be a restriction in GB Energy’s activities if it were only to engage in a space that enabled additionality, because it would restrict some of the investment portfolio that it could end up with.
Dan McGrail: The private sector and the industry in general have been quite clear that we see a real benefit in the participation of GB Energy in emergent technology, such as tidal energy. However, even within the five founding statements, there is nothing specific about fostering UK home-grown innovation. I would err on the side of caution within legislation, or at least I would not put it as a boundary condition. It should not be the only thing, but if it were somewhere in the plan—either in the founding statements, if they get modified, or in the plans brought forward by the Secretary of State—that would be healthy.
Catherine Fookes
Q
My question is about tidal power. I represent a Welsh constituency, Monmouthshire. We have the River Severn in the south of the constituency, which is a tidal river, and we have the Celtic sea. What opportunities will the Bill give to generate more tidal power?
Dan McGrail: The Bill allows space for GB Energy to take quite an activist role in the sector. I am aware of tidal power companies that are already very keen to engage with GB Energy on specific proposals. One thing about tidal power is that we have seen the success of many projects through the CfD auctions. We need to see them come to investment decisions. The more we can see a state actor enabling companies to take decisions, the more it will help to scale up the industry and then the technologies. From the technologies, we can hopefully deliver the kind of supply chain growth and jobs in local communities to which we all aspire.
Perran Moon
Q
“prepare a statement of strategic priorities”.
I have been listening carefully to the priorities on skills and innovation from your perspective. Let me ask you both: if you were Secretary of State, what would be your key strategic priorities be for the Bill?
Adam Berman: The first is public value, which goes beyond the ability of GB Energy to create profits and return them to energy bills or whatever mechanism it might come up with. That is not to say that that is not important, but if this is new money—a significant amount of new capital—being made available by the Treasury, it is about how we, as a society and as an economy, can get the most out of those investments. So I would say public value, which is about not just financial returns but broader public benefits.
Secondly, it is about spreading economic activity and about how that links into the industrial strategy. That might be for the supply chain and also for GB Energy, but we should think not just about particular technologies but about particular regions.
A third priority would be the delivery of the UK’s legal objectives—its legally binding climate commitments.
A fourth priority would be the delivery of the National Energy System Operator’s priorities, which links to the strategic spatial energy plan that we have already been talking about, and ensuring that it helps to foster a workable decarbonised power sector. For example, we could see solutions such as GB Energy putting investment into wind or solar in areas with higher constraint costs or lower population centres with higher land use costs, which are not as attractive to private investors at the moment, but which with GB Energy’s lower cost of capital may well still be a profitable enterprise. It is about how we can have a win-win with NESO’s objectives.
Finally, impact on investment cannot be ignored. I recognise that it is not the Government’s intention at all that there be an impact on private sector investment, but we need to ensure, as a founding principle, that there is not a risk that any GB Energy investment could deter or crowd out private sector investment.
Dan McGrail: I would add one thing to that very good summary. There are a number of new institutions being set up at the same time—NESO, mission control, GB Energy. There are also a number of big initiatives such as strategic spatial energy plans and centralised network planning. It would be very helpful for the sector and for industry to understand the interaction of those with the national wealth fund. I almost see an organogram in my mind of how things flow. In my conversations with the sector, there have been questions about where the limit of GB Energy ends and where the National Wealth Fund begins, and so on and so forth. It would be enormously helpful for the sector and for other institutions such as the Scottish National Investment Bank and UKIB to understand how they fit within that matrix.
The Chair
If there are no further questions from Members, may I thank the witnesses for their evidence?
That brings us to the end of our morning sitting. We have had four panels with eight witnesses—thanks, everyone. The Committee will meet again in this Committee Room at 2 o’clock, when I will have turned into Sir Roger Gale.
Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. (Anna Turley.)
Great British Energy Bill (Second sitting)
Tuesday 8th October 2024
(2 weeks, 6 days ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Great British Energy Bill 2024-26 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 8 October 2024 - (8 Oct 2024)
The Chair
The Committee will now hear oral evidence from Alistair McGirr, group head of policy and advocacy at SSE, and Tristan Zipfel, director of strategy at EDF Renewables. We have until 2.30 pm for this session. Will you be kind enough to introduce yourselves for the record, gentlemen?
Alistair McGirr: I am Alistair McGirr. I look after our cross-cutting policy and public affairs. I sit within our group structure, but SSE has interests across renewable energy, flexible capacity and electricity networks.
Tristan Zipfel: I am Tristan Zipfel, director of strategy, markets and investments for EDF Renewables. We are one of the leading renewable energy developers in the UK. We have about 1.5 GW in operation, with 600 people across the country in five different offices. It is a real pleasure to be able to share some evidence today.
The Chair
Mr Zipfel, one of the disadvantages of having a geriatric Chairman is that my hearing is not as good as it used to be. But for everybody’s benefit and, most particularly, for the Hansard reporters, it might be helpful for you to speak up a little and be very clearly on microphone. I call the shadow Minister.
Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)
Q
“objects are restricted to facilitating…the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy”
and must include
“measures for ensuring the security of the supply of energy.”
SSE and EDF Renewables are involved in both those objects right now, so how do you see the Bill and the creation of this company as either assisting or facilitating you in your objectives?
Alistair McGirr: At SSE, we welcome GB Energy, and as a company that is headquartered in Scotland, we particularly welcome its location. We think that Scotland has a larger opportunity for investment across the clean energy transition. To answer your question directly, it depends on how the organisation is set up and on its governance, but if, as has been suggested, GB Energy will be focused on crowding in investment, there is an opportunity for it to help to accelerate that transition and, importantly, to capture some of the wider opportunities that can come from the transition.
Tristan Zipfel: You can probably tell from my accent that I come from a country where state-owned investment in energy assets is commonplace, so that is something that we at EDF are very comfortable with and see very positively. In fact, I would say that any initiative that leads to directing more investment, capital and effort into decarbonisation is a very good thing. As Alistair said, it will be important that GB Energy is set up in a way that triggers and supports investment in the sector and does not disrupt the competitive playing field that we currently have in it.
Andrew Bowie
Q
“The Secretary of State must prepare a statement of strategic priorities for Great British Energy.”
If you were the Secretary of State and were tasked with drawing up strategic priorities, what would they be?
Alistair McGirr: On the way that we think about the particular benefits from GB Energy, first, we look at it as a potential partner for some of our investments. We work with a number of commercial entities, some of which are state owned—for example, Equinor, which we work with on the Dogger Bank offshore wind farm and on our carbon capture and storage projects. We work with these parties on a commercial basis and we would be open to working with GB Energy on projects that would help to accelerate the transition. So co-investment is one area. We would be keen to see that targeted at areas where there may be a bit of policy risk. With things like hydrogen storage, hydro-pump storage or CCS, there may be an opportunity for GB Energy to take some of the policy risks that private companies perhaps cannot.
Offshore wind is an area where there has been lots of debates, and there was some nervousness relating to the initial discussion about the Crown Estate tie-up. However, we think that with the principle they were trying to achieve, which is the acceleration of that environmental consenting process, there is an opportunity to accelerate projects and, importantly, reduce the cost of bringing those projects to fruition.
To give an example, our Berwick Bank offshore wind farm up in Scotland, which is one of the largest in the world, is currently sitting within the planning process and has been for 20-plus months now. Projects like Berwick Bank could be accelerated by a focus on areas where GB Energy can accelerate environmental consenting, basically by taking a more strategic approach to how it thinks about environmental consenting rather than considering that on a project-by-project basis.
To make a point on offshore wind, the one area that everyone will talk about—I am sure we will come back to it—is floating offshore wind. There is a big opportunity for not only GB Energy, but the national wealth fund to capture a whole range of benefits from the emerging sector, in terms of both bringing the costs of delivery down and making sure that there is a supply chain available to deliver the projects that are currently under development.
Perhaps a last point to mention is the local power plan. We would be quite keen, as an operator of electricity distribution networks, that the local power plan was able to be targeted in areas where there is a wider system and societal benefit in supporting and unlocking a lot of the low-carbon projects in the distribution network, because it is no secret that there will be lots of questions about how things connect to that local distribution network. We think that the local power plan has a particular route in targeting some of those investments in a way that can better integrate low-carbon technologies into the distribution network.
Tristan Zipfel: To add to what Alistair said, for a start, the UK is in a really strong position to maintain its leadership in the renewables market. There is a strong industry in place, and I think GB Energy can fit into that and strengthen the framework. As a co-investor, in particular, I think GB Energy could bring value, as Alistair said, by investing in frontier technologies, but also by helping to strengthen the link and connection with local communities. For our projects to be successful, it is absolutely paramount that they are adhered to by the local communities. As a developer, we spend tremendous efforts on being present and creating a connection with local communities. Having GB Energy on board for certain projects could reinforce that link and even provide a sense of public ownership in the project, which I think would be very strong.
Alistair talked about emerging technologies and how some of them present certain risk profiles, where having an investor like GB Energy could help kick-start the development of this segment of the market. He mentioned CCS; I think we could talk about hydrogen as another example.
GB Energy also has an interesting role to play as a developer. We have seen the announcement of the partnership with the Crown Estate on the offshore site. There is an opportunity for GB Energy to focus on the segments of the market where the private sector is struggling to make progress, perhaps because the infrastructure is not yet there, or because there are specific risk profiles that make the private sector struggle to invest in these segments of the market, despite them presenting long-term value. That is where there is a real opportunity for GB Energy.
Andrew Bowie
Q
“The Secretary of State must consult the Scottish Ministers before including in a statement under this section anything which concerns a subject matter provision about which would be within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament”.
As a company that has heavily invested in Scotland, did you realise that there was detail in the Bill about how GB Energy will interact with the devolved Administrations, given that so many aspects of what it is seeking to achieve are competences of the devolved Administrations, specifically in Scotland?
Alistair McGirr: In terms of the premise, I definitely agree that the devolved Administrations have to play an important role in the direction of GB Energy. I do not think there necessarily needs to be anything in the legislation. I suppose it is also worth mentioning that there might be a view about how the investments are spread across different parts of the country. In reality, a lot of those will be up in Scotland because of the opportunities that Scotland has.
The Chair
I have three Members on my list already, and we have 15 minutes left, so please be short, sharp and to the point.
Uma Kumaran (Stratford and Bow) (Lab)
Q
Tristan Zipfel: If you take the example of France, EDF is indeed state owned, but it is a competitive market. Nowadays, EDF is one actor among others. If you take, for instance, offshore wind in France, EDF competes—sometimes it wins, and sometimes it does not. The benefit for the general public is a sense that that body can execute the strategic vision of the French Government in delivering net zero or a decarbonised future. EDF is very much the arm that executes that vision—independently, at arm’s length, but it does it. I also think there is a creation of long-term value by the ownership of assets. EDF provides dividends to the French state, which I think are valuable.
Uma Kumaran
Merci.
Alistair McGirr: If I may add to that, there is the question of the role of the state. Not everything has to be through GB Energy or the national wealth fund. In terms of the GB Energy policy framework, the creation of the National Energy System Operator can help to drive a lot of economic value through the transition here in GB by taking a much more strategic approach to how infrastructure is going to be deployed. GB Energy is one element of that, but I think the wider value can be brought together by a more strategic approach through the policy framework.
Pippa Heylings (South Cambridgeshire) (LD)
Q
Tristan Zipfel: For sure, yes, they could be part of the scope. Choices will need to be made, of course, on where those investments are directed, and I think it is important to direct the investments where they will have the maximum impact. When it comes to onshore wind, for instance, perhaps it could be a case not of investing where the private sector is already doing a good job on its own, but of looking at areas where there is a need to develop infrastructure to unlock these onshore wind opportunities, or of looking at Government-owned land that could be used to develop new projects. As you said, Alistair, it is going to be complementary to what the private sector is doing, but there will be pockets of opportunities for GB Energy to really make a difference, even in an area like onshore wind, I think—100%.
Alistair McGirr: I agree with that answer. The question would then be: where is the biggest bang for the buck? Is it building large onshore wind projects that actually have developers in that space and have a route to market? That is probably the question for GB Energy: is that the best use of taxpayers’ money, rather than other things that can be done in terms of investment in frontier technologies?
You mentioned tidal. There is the question there of an absence of a business model. If there was this supported business model, there might be an opportunity for private investors to come into that space. There is the issue that just because the private sector is not doing it does not mean that the public sector should do it, because ultimately, if it is a bad deal for private shareholders, it is probably a bad deal for taxpayers as well. I think this is about making sure that the technologies that are useful are brought forward with business models that provide a return for whoever the investor is.
Torcuil Crichton (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Lab)
Q
“the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy”,
you have welcomed state intervention and the role of GB Energy in that. How would you feel about communities taking a direct stake in your onshore and offshore developments—say, 20%, as they do in Denmark?
Tristan Zipfel: On our side—I am sure SSE does the same—we are definitely looking at that. We are trying to develop some schemes that go exactly along those lines. We have not done it so far. The link and the reward to communities have been through the community benefits fund linked to our projects. I live in Teesside: we have an offshore wind farm there, and I can tell you that the community benefit fund, over the last 10 years of operation, has helped dozens of local projects and initiatives. You are absolutely right to think the next frontier is to have more local ownership of wind farms. That could be through GB Energy, but it could also be through direct ownership schemes. We are looking at those options at the moment.
Alistair McGirr: As I mentioned at the start, we partner with a number of different organisations; I mentioned Equinor, which is a state-owned entity. We are open to working with any kind of party on a commercial basis, be it a community or another developer. In that sense, the communities taking a stake in some of the projects is something that could be done. The question is: what are the terms of that arrangement? There is the critical point that any community ownership should be focused on co-investment. It should not just be the case that 20% of a project is passed on to a community, because that will be value that is basically taken out of the project, which then inflates the cost of the project. So the co-investment piece is very important. Whether it involves another developer, another state-owned entity, GB Energy or a community, I think that is a useful way of bringing capital into the UK’s low-carbon infrastructure.
Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
Q
Alistair McGirr: Yes, frankly. I think there will be other protections in place—what was in old money called state aid protections but is now subsidy control. There will be wider provisions that ensure that GB Energy does not have adverse impacts on investment into the competitor space, be they state aid provisions or subsidy control provisions. That will ensure that what GB Energy is effectively legislated to be able to do does not adversely impact a competitive playing field. It is important to make sure that that is maintained. Ultimately, if there is a tilting of the playing field towards GB Energy, that will be a bad deal for either the taxpayer or the consumer.
Tristan Zipfel: I concur with what was said. It is really important that the establishment of GB Energy does not disrupt the dozens of billions of pounds that are going to be directed by the private sector into the renewables sector, or the clean energy sector in general, over the next decades. For that it is important to maintain trust in the fact that it is indeed going to be a level playing field and that GB Energy is not going to benefit from forms of assistance that would disrupt competition. That being said, I think GB Energy will have its own criteria, strategy and approach, which is absolutely fine. But it needs to be in the context of a level playing field from a competitive standpoint. That is really important.
Catherine Fookes (Monmouthshire) (Lab)
Q
Alistair McGirr: I am very supportive of those projects coming to Wales. Obviously the Celtic sea auctions are another example of the upcoming opportunities in Wales. The reality is that GB Energy is not going to be the vehicle that drives that—that will be the wider policy framework in terms of what happens here in Westminster, and also in the regulatory frameworks that are in place and what happens in the devolved Administrations. My reference to Scotland is not to say that other parts of the country could not have the opportunities for investment. It is just that the sheer scale of the opportunities in Scotland for wind, hydro, some of the grid projects, CCS and hydrogen mean there is a significant opportunity in Scotland. That is one of the reasons why GB Energy has been located up in that area.
Tristan Zipfel: I can only concur. Wales is very important for us. We have onshore wind projects that we are actively promoting in Wales. I think GB Energy could play a role there. I want to emphasise, however, that I do not think GB Energy on its own will be the solution to unlocking the opportunities you describe. I think it is really important in Wales in particular that there is an effort on the policy side to provide more certainty and more visibility of the projects, as well as the question of the grid, which is a problem. But I concur that Wales is very important strategically from our standpoint as a renewable energy developer.
Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)
Q
In relation to some of the objects that are detailed in clause 3, I think we are all excited about the potential for the state to take a proactive role in the production of energy, but the Bill is quite clear that it is about
“the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy…the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions…improvements in energy efficiency, and…measures for ensuring the security of the supply of energy.”
SSE is investing £40 billion in clean tech over the next 10 years, and EDF is investing £50 billion or so. How far do you think £1.6 billion can go, in real terms, given the breadth of the different things the Bill seeks to achieve?
Alistair McGirr: In reality, it is not going to be the sole investor that is going to deliver the clean energy transition. As you allude to, we have a significant investment programme that we would be keen to bring to fruition over the next 10 years or so. It is about how you best use the money that is available. Where can we accelerate the investment and crowd in the scale of investment that is going to be required? We may be talking about big numbers, and in EDF as well—not only here in the UK but elsewhere—but there will not be just one investor. If you look at the National Infrastructure Commission, for instance, they are projecting in the region of £25 billion to £30 billion of investment in energy infrastructure per year for the next decade. The scale of the investment is going to be much bigger than any single entity, be it GB Energy, SSE or EDF.
Tristan Zipfel: Choices will need to be made—you cannot do everything with that pot of money—and it is really about identifying the areas where they will have maximum impact and where they will be most complementary to the effort of the private sector. It is not about displacing the private sector; it is more about covering the gaps and providing a boost to more investment in the sector.
That is also the spirit of the agreement with the Crown Estate. Looking at offshore wind, what is currently the blocker for more investment? It is the timeframe that it takes to develop a project. The spirit of that agreement is to look at an early stage and make it easier for private investors to invest in projects that are more de-risked than they are at the moment. That is the right approach, in my view, and it could be expanded to the other technologies in the scope of GB Energy.
Perran Moon (Camborne and Redruth) (Lab)
Q
Tristan Zipfel: I can start with solar energy. As a business we do not look at geothermal, so I do not want to elaborate on that, but we invest a lot in solar. When you look at solar, the issue is not to get private capital—there is more than enough capital to invest in this. However, where GB could provide value is perhaps in creating that link with local communities. I keep going back to that, but it is so important for us to create a sense that those projects are not just there for private investors but have an element of state and public ownership. That could mean a lot for local communities. In partnership with GB Energy, we could even imagine GB Energy taking the lead on the relationship with local communities or in certain parts of the development that are so essential to the project. Recent studies have shown that local communities would respond very favourably to projects in which Great British Energy is an investor alongside the private sector. In that sense, it would make a difference.
Alistair McGirr: I think the local power plan is an opportunity for these technologies. It is not just about the big, mature technologies. It will play an important role in developing projects in solar and geothermal in Cornwall, in Wales and in other parts of the country, too. It is about making the most of the local power plan and working with developers to help to bring those to fruition as soon as possible.
The Chair
Thank you. I apologise to Members who have not managed to ask all the questions they want to ask, but we are out of time on this panel. Mr Zipfel and Mr McGirr, I thank you very much on behalf of the Committee and the House for affording us the benefit of your opinions and your time.
Examination of Witness
Dan Labbad gave evidence.
The Chair
We will now hear oral evidence from Dan Labbad, who is the chief executive officer of the Crown Estate. For this session, I am afraid that we have only until 2.50 pm. For the benefit of the record, Mr Labbad, could you introduce yourself?
Dan Labbad: I am Dan Labbad, the chief executive of the Crown Estate.
Andrew Bowie
Q
Dan Labbad: First, thank you for having me here this afternoon.
The Crown Estate has been operating in the offshore renewable energy space for a long time—roughly 25 years—and, working with Government, the private sector and the third sector, we have created what is the second largest offshore wind capability in the world. That is something that we as a country should be very proud of, but obviously what got us here will not get us where we need to be.
When you look at the Climate Change Committee’s report on what is required from offshore wind and other renewable and zero-carbon technologies into the future, you see that we need to accelerate our deployment in a way that is balanced with other marine uses, including the environment, and ensure that we are deploying at a rate that meets the targets that were set for good reason. We have been organising the Crown Estate for the last five to 10 years in order to do that, accelerating leasing and starting the de-risking process for developers.
We also have a Bill before Parliament to enhance our powers to do more in this space. For example, we have something called the marine delivery route map, which looks at all uses on the seabed to ensure that we can create spatial co-ordination for different uses. That is fundamental to being able to achieve deployment, but even with our new powers we cannot do it alone. We need support, certainly support from Government.
There are three key areas that we would have called on had GB Energy not been announced, but Great British Energy offers a number of things. First, there is the co-ordination of all the agents involved in what is a very complex energy sector, both within and outside of Government. One of the big encumbrances at the moment is that everyone is working in slightly different directions; you do not achieve targets if everyone is working in slightly different directions.
Secondly, there are the increased investment powers to ensure that we are additive to what the private sector needs and ensure that we can achieve the acceleration throughput that we are talking about and invest in new technologies.
Finally, it can ensure that we are evolving policy around areas that are not limited to planning and grid, for example, so that we have the pathways not only to lease seabed for renewable deployment but to deliver generating capacity. We see GB Energy bringing those things.
Andrew Bowie
Q
Dan Labbad: Consultation across the country is fundamental. In fact, if you look at our Celtic sea round 5 tender, which is live at the moment, you will see that we consulted heavily with the Welsh Government and with Welsh stakeholders. In fact, we evolved our approach quite considerably in the deployment of that tender approach through that consultation, adding a lot of value.
I should say that to get a leasing programme out like round 5—which is the 4.5 GW floating wind programme that we have at the moment live in the Celtic sea—you engage with many stakeholders. The count in the case of the Celtic sea was more than 70 stakeholders from global and local environmental groups, developers across Government, the third sector again and a whole host of users of the seabed. Without doing that we do not deploy, because we do not get everybody’s buy-in. If we are talking other parts of the country, there is no difference whether it is Northern Ireland or Scotland.
We enjoy a good relationship with Crown Estates Scotland and with the Scottish Government. They are partners in our marine delivery route map and we are co-ordinating on systems issues, because obviously some of the environmental issues and deployment and grid issues do not have borders, so that consultation is, as you suggest, fundamental.
Perran Moon
Q
Dan Labbad: First, as regards the Celtic sea, there are social requirements as part of the tender process. I obviously cannot talk about them too much, given that we are in a live tender for procurement purposes, but there are social requirements as part of that tender.
To your question, it is fundamental. It will be a real failure if we end up deploying renewable energy on the seabed in the way we need to in the next 20 years and are not able to capture a fair proportion of that industrial complex for ourselves as a country. It would be a real pity if we did not build new jobs and new futures for young people across the country and if we did not support the distribution of that benefit across the country, including to coastal communities.
We have to bear in mind that there is a role for developers and a role for Government and the Crown Estate. For example, in the Celtic sea a 4.5 GW tender does not build a supply chain. It is not enough; the critical mass is not there. Again, that is why it is so important that Great British Energy and the Crown Estate work together, with our additional powers and being able to provide forward commitments to, for example, the Celtic sea. We estimate at the moment that it has the potential for another 12 GW of offshore wind, predominantly floating but also fixed. You need that type of scale so that both Government and private sector investment in the supply chain, including in coastal communities, will stick. That is why this partnership is so important and why we have to remember the size of that prize, so to speak.
Stephen Flynn
Q
Dan Labbad: First, from the Crown Estate’s perspective —I know this is a little out of scope—we operate under an Act of Parliament and have an obligation to enhance the value of our portfolio nationally, on behalf of the country, into perpetuity. We must ensure that we, like any business, balance safe investments with more risky investments. There is no doubt that investing in the seabed in the way we are talking about is a higher risk activity than other things that we do.
The increased borrowing powers do two things. First, they give us the capital throughput to do more—to accelerate and offer more. Secondly, because we know that we will have a line of credit, they allow us to make commitments. To use the Celtic sea as an example, as we move from what we envisage we can do about 12 GW to the reality of knowing that we can do that, we can then say to the market that we are committed to that leasing programme over the next 10 years. That is huge. From a developer perspective, they are not chipping away. For argument’s sake, let us say that we have 4 GW divided into three bits. You are talking about small gigawattage for companies of the scale of Equinor, for example. Being able to provide a pipeline where we know there is more to come means that they invest more—that is what that does.
The other thing that comes with the borrowing powers is a broader investment remit, which allows us to turn our attention to supply chain opportunities and to support the industrial complex and jobs. Again, we have been restricted in what we can do there in the past, so that is fundamental. With regard to GB Energy, as I said earlier, the Crown Estate cannot do it all on its own. We need additional capital support, support with co-ordination and support with policy evolution. All those things are required, which is why the partnership is so fundamental.
The Chair
Order. The issue of scope has raised its head again. I gently say that while this Chairman is not in the business of seeking to tell witnesses what they can and cannot say, he is in the business of making sure that Members, at least, stay within the scope.
Catherine Fookes
Q
Dan Labbad: Yes. Both the Crown Estate and GB Energy moving forward will support that type of thing. It is an example of a local community energy project, and I think there needs to be more of that, as I said in my answer to the earlier question. Where we can build community support for renewable projects, we should. The Crown Estate and GB Energy will be looking to that as part of our core mandate moving forward. I am very excited about that type of thing because it benefits everybody, so it is fundamental to what we do moving forward.
Pippa Heylings
Q
Within the scope of the Bill, under clause 3, we also heard in evidence this morning the request that we seek a duty towards nature and nature recovery and the achievement of the Environment Act 2021. Would that provide the reassurance that while we are dealing with the climate emergency, we are not disregarding the nature emergency and the environmental value of the seabed and the sea?
Dan Labbad: While I cannot comment specifically on the Bill, I would say that the Crown Estate already has a responsibility to protect the environment and look at nature recovery. In fact, this week we launched our nature commitments, which have undergone significant consultation. You can find those live on our website. We are obligated under our Act to do that. That obligation maintains in the partnership, so we will be doing that as part of what we bring to the GB Energy partnership.
Harriet Cross (Gordon and Buchan) (Con)
Q
Dan Labbad: If you look at where we are today, we have just under 12 GW generating. The Crown Estate in England, Wales and Northern Ireland has about 42 GW in the pipeline. The first thing is: how can we bring as much of that to generating as possible? That is really important. Where and how do we remove immediate encumbrances? That is something we can work on immediately. From there, even to bring 20 GW to 30 GW to market by 2030 needs a lot of work and co-ordination.
To put it another way, we have delivered 12 GW of generating capacity in 25 years and if, as informed by the Climate Change Committee, we are to move up to 125 GW of generating capacity by 2050, that means we need a five to tenfold increase in the next 25 years. What we do in the next few years is incredibly important to ensure that we are laying the foundations for that to be a successful deployment.
The Chair
I said that that would be the final question, but we have a couple of minutes left, so, very briefly, I call Torcuil Crichton.
Torcuil Crichton
Q
Dan Labbad: We are looking to learn all the time from what happens around the country and around the world. One thing that it is worth saying quickly is that sometimes we are too focused on interior discussions and debates about how and what goes on where in the UK. The elephant in the room, in some ways, is losing the first mover advantage we have had in this sector to the rest of the world. It is essential to demonstrate that as a country we can do floating wind better than anyone else, and to build the integration and maintenance capabilities in this country, because that is what will bring the jobs, for example. We are always focused on that.
We have learned a number of things. Obviously, focusing on the supply chain is fundamentally important. That has been a learning over the past 10 years. The other thing that has been a learning is that we need to work to de-risk the sector for the private sector as much as possible, because in a world that has a growing offshore wind pipeline, even the companies that you are listening to today all work internationally, and we need to retain the UK as a competitive place for them to want to deploy renewable energy. The way that to do that is to build the pathway to the future, so that they can see the pipeline using the marine delivery route map. We must de-risk such projects up front so that they still put their capital in and earn the requisite return on it for the risk that they take, but we are not asking them to take a disproportionate risk on projects that are being stalled. Those are all learnings over the past 25 years.
I will also make a final point. The industry and Government—the Crown Estate and others involved in this sector over the past 25 years—have been exceptional at course correcting when things have not gone exactly to plan. The innovation capacity in the sector is there, and all we need to do through things like the partnership with Great British Energy is empower that capacity. Then, I think, we have every chance of meeting those deployment targets.
The Chair
Thank you. Mr Labbad, it may seem like a long way to have come for a very short period of time, but your evidence is extremely valuable to the Committee.
Examination of Witness
Josh Buckland gave evidence.
The Chair
Good afternoon. We will now hear oral evidence from Josh Buckland, a partner at Flint Global. For this session, we have until 3.10 pm. Mr Buckland, will you identify yourself for the purposes of the record, please?
Josh Buckland: I am Joshua Buckland, a partner at Flint Global.
Andrew Bowie
Q
“the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy”.
Do you see the Bill and the creation of GBE as an assistance in unlocking private capital and the investment that we need in the new technologies, or are you worried, as some are, that this might be a blockage and get in the way of the private sector?
Josh Buckland: I think that that is the right question to ask. Ultimately, the amount of capital we need to invest in the energy transition is so significant that we will have to deploy and leverage in private finance at a scale that has not really been seen before, and any intervention from Government needs to play a role in unlocking that private capital. The Government have set out that Great British Energy will be mobilised with £8.3 billion of public capital. On the surface, that is a significant amount of money, but in comparison with the hundreds of billions that we will need to deploy through the overall transition, the way that it crowds in greater levels of private investment will be the key test of its success.
The Bill sets out a range of roles that Great British Energy could play, some of which could have a bigger impact on mobilising capital than others, and a range of different mechanisms that it could deploy. It is probably too early to tell whether the structure and the decisions it makes will mobilise capital at the scale that the Government intend, but the framework set out in the Bill will definitely give it the potential to do so.
Olivia Blake (Sheffield Hallam) (Lab)
Q
Josh Buckland: The financial assistance statements set out in clause 4 are relatively broad; they give Great British Energy the ability to invest in a variety of ways. It comes back to the question of how you create value through Great British Energy. One of the key tests will be whether it can drive additionality, so whether it can deploy capital in a way the private sector cannot. That usually rests on two issues. One is whether it can invest earlier in the development curve when private investment at scale is tricky, so where there is technology risk or development risk. An alternative is whether it can invest on a sub-par basis, so effectively whether it can create catalytic capital—that is the terminology often used—in a way the private sector would not be able to.
Clause 4 could potentially do those things, and there is no restriction on its ability to do them, but obviously the Government have not yet said much about exactly what format these investments will take. That is not necessarily an issue from a legislative perspective. I have looked back at the legislation that underpinned the UK Infrastructure Bank and the Green Investment Bank, which I was involved with when I was in government, and both those Acts are relatively high-level in terms of the interventions and mechanisms that they can deploy. On the surface, there is nothing that restricts that. As the Government think about the deployment of Great British Energy, I imagine that they will want to set out how it will give more clarity to the private market on the sorts of interventions and mechanisms that it will look to deploy at scale.
Olivia Blake
Q
Josh Buckland: My personal view on financial assistance is that it is fine to keep it relatively broad. Having been a civil servant in government for a long time, I know that primary legislation, if it is relatively broad, gives you the ability to think commercially, and clearly the energy transition will be set out with a range of different technologies. Innovation will come through, and the ability for the Bill to be flexible will assist that.
There are other questions about things that are referenced less in the Bill—let’s put it that way. In some of the previous legislation—for example, the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013, which set out the Green Investment Bank—the Government talked about the need for operational independence undertakings and gave more clarity on the importance of creating an independent institution that can act in a way that ensures it can partner with the private sector and can take investment decisions that mobilise private investment and do not distort the market. Although that is not necessarily linked to clause 4, there are some interesting questions around whether the independence framework set out goes far enough to give that reassurance to the private market.
Harriet Cross
Q
Josh Buckland: On the surface, a range of different countries have publicly owned energy companies of different sizes and scales. Therefore, I do not agree with the concept that private investors are either unfamiliar or concerned at a general level. It will all come down to your point around the design of the actual institution and how it operates with the private market.
I think you are right to say that the Bill is relatively high-level. Looking back at some of the precedents that exist, I would mention the Green Investment Bank again. That was operational for a number of years and was established and grown while the legislation was then taken later down the line. It was easier, if you were a private investor, to understand the role that the Green Investment Bank would play and then have the legislation to effectively inform and solidify that.
The challenge in this context is that the Government have obviously proceeded with the legislation early on, as the institution is being established. That does not mean to say that it cannot be created as an institution that is independent and galvanises private investment but, clearly, the current level of uncertainty around the design and the mechanisms that it will deploy will add to that challenge.
Therefore, the Government have said that alongside the Bill they will look to publish more detail on a framework agreement with Government, and how they will set that out and consult with private industry. That, in tandem with the Bill, is critical at this formation stage. That is not to say that it necessarily leads to all that detail being in the Bill itself, but it is critical that it goes alongside it.
Josh MacAlister (Whitehaven and Workington) (Lab)
Q
Josh Buckland: It is a fair and good question. I think your substantive point is absolutely right; the mechanisms set out under clause 4 give Great British Energy the opportunity to take different approaches as technology shifts and changes. We have definitely seen, over the past decade, a shift towards different mechanisms deployed by Government. At the early stage, they were largely bilateral, non-competitive and largely done on a kind of long-term contract basis. It is very instructive to look at what the UK Infrastructure Bank is now doing; it is now looking at different mechanisms—earlier stage investment, development capital at risk, and equity investments. Those are the sorts of things that Governments have not traditionally done at the scale that is necessarily required for the energy transition but that obviously Great British Energy could play a role in extending.
There is an interesting question around where you draw the line between Great British Energy and the role of other existing institutions. The Government have already talked about the fact that they are going to evolve the UK Infrastructure Bank to be the national wealth fund, and obviously that will have some crossover with the operations and focus areas of Great British Energy. For me—this may be an issue that is separate from the Bill—how the Government set out how the governance will work between the Department, the Government, Great British Energy, the national wealth fund and other institutions will be critical to making that a success over time, as the executive of Great British Energy looks at new issues and technologies as they come through.
I would stress—I imagine that this point may be made by other witnesses—that the fact that clause 3 is relatively broad, in terms of the sectors and areas that the entity can invest in, is really beneficial, because that also allows some level of independence for the executive to take choices as the energy sector evolves. Clearly, we know the many technologies that we have now, but there will be a range of different issues that come through. I therefore think that that flexibility under clause 3 is quite important.
Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
Q
“the Secretary of State must prepare a statement of strategic priorities”.
Do you think that it would be important to have a timescale for that, so that we know when the Secretary of State is preparing the strategic priorities, and so that it happens quite quickly? That is something that we can do: put a possible time limit or timeframe into this Bill.
Josh Buckland: That is a very good question; I look back to my time as a civil servant. Sometimes timelines can be very useful because they give clarity, externally, as to when priorities will be updated and when there will be new interventions from Government, but sometimes they do not necessarily reflect the external environment as things change. If there were to be a decision to include an additional requirement around the timeframe, I think you would still want the ability to respond to external events as the world changes, to ensure that the priorities set out to the institution could adapt as the external world changes. Obviously, that is very true in the energy transition.
Clause 5(8) states that Great British Energy must have the ability
“to publish and act in accordance with”
that statement. The thing for me—again, it may not be an issue for the Bill itself, but it will be interesting to watch—will be how bound Great British Energy is to the specifics of the Secretary of State’s statement and what latitude it has beyond that, because clearly it will want to take its own commercial decisions. Fundamental to its independence and ability to crowd in private finance will be that it is taking commercial decisions with strong justification. That is an area that may not need any greater clarity in the Bill, but it will be one thing that private investors will look at quite closely.
Uma Kumaran
Q
Josh Buckland: Completely. There are plenty of precedents in various sizes and scales. Critically, they are not necessarily all in the concept of a developer company, which obviously has got most of the attention as a result of the Great British Energy Bill. There are those examples, and there are significant European energy developers and national energy companies right across the world, and quite often they partner with other entities, whether they are private investors or developers. It is welcome that in the broader statement the Government have been clear that, especially at an early stage, they want Great British Energy to partner with other developers. We should not forget that we have a lot of leading companies in this country, both headquartered here and inward investors.
The other interesting area is the role that the state can play more generally. I might be wrong, but I think that is alluded to in clause 4, which mentions that the financial assistance may be applied “pursuant to a contract”. That is an interesting dynamic. In Denmark, for example, the state in its new leasing process for offshore wind will take a 20% stake in projects as it offers out contracts to the private sector. That is an interesting model that could potentially be applied here and has been applied in other European jurisdictions.
I am not entirely sure about the Government’s intentions on whether that would be a matter for GB Energy or for broader policy, but clearly it creates different opportunities. We should not necessarily think about Great British Energy just as an investor of capital, to go back to the question asked earlier; this is a significant amount of money but, given the scale of investment required, it will be deploying other capital through it that is the key test of success.
Perran Moon
Q
Josh Buckland: I have looked through the project life cycle, and clause 4 gives a lot of flexibility around it. There is the early-stage development capital, which is quite difficult at this stage to develop at the scale required. Developing large-scale energy projects costs not just tens of millions, but potentially hundreds of millions through the development phase, so there is a role there that GB Energy could play in the deployment of development capital.
Potentially more important in a development phase is the ability to help projects to de-risk other things that they cannot control, such as their ability to access a grid connection, to get planning approval and to access the right supply chain domestically, to go back to the point about unlocking economic potential here. That could potentially be a significant role for GB Energy. That comes back to the governance question of where Government draw the line between a role for Great British Energy and the Government, because a lot of those issues are effectively for the Government to deal with, but that is an interesting dynamic to watch.
If we move through to the construction phase, there is slightly less of a role, in truth, because the level of capital required in building out projects once they have got over the initial financing barrier is potentially lower. I know the Government have talked a lot about that separately from the Bill. The exception is local and community energy projects, where clearly the barrier to unlocking investment is higher, and there is potentially a role there for Great British Energy that the Government have talked about.
The final piece is whether, once an asset has been built out and is operational, Great British Energy should have a role there. Again, that is potentially more a question about how you want the capital to be deployed. The Government could take a stake in a project, or invest to then seek a return, and utilise that money either to reduce energy bills or to reinvest. That is a question around prioritisation of public spending, because that might be a sensible thing to do, but there is a range of other things you could invest in that might look beyond the energy transition. Hopefully that gives you a bit of a feel. The role will definitely change depending on where you are in the asset life cycle.
Pippa Heylings
Q
Josh Buckland: There is a question around consultative processes, I suppose. One thing we have seen, or that I have experienced, especially on the planning side, is that when the Government set out statements of intent—for example, through the planning regime and national policy statements—it is important to consult on those extensively in advance so that there is certainty around what they mean. Then they have to wait as institutions respond. There may be a question about what level of external input is given before the statement of strategic priorities is set out, or whether it is just a Government statement that is then passed through. There is an interesting question about consultation in advance.
Once it is established, those acting and investing alongside Great British Energy will be more interested in how it as an institution interprets that statement. If it has to set out a strategic business plan as set out under subsection (8), that is the area that companies will be more interested in, because—assuming it is operationally independent—that is the thing that they will take more seriously.
The other dynamic in terms of updates is the risk that regular updates to the strategic plan create uncertainty. That might go back to the question of timeline and expectations of when the statement is reviewed, when it is republished and at what stage, and what needs to change externally to make that a reality. That is probably an important dynamic. Whether that is a matter for the Bill I will leave to others to guide on, but obviously it is an area that will be of interest externally in understanding how Great British Energy operates in practice.
Andrew Pakes (Peterborough) (Lab)
Q
Josh Buckland: Ultimately, the question of supply chain is broader than this Bill. Great British Energy could absolutely play a role, especially if it is doing place-based investments or is particularly investing in certain projects. but there is a fundamental question for the Government, as they look to build out the supply chain, around what they are doing at a skills-based level, what they are doing at a technology development level and how they are giving greater clarity on the pipeline of projects over time, some of which might be invested in by Great British Energy and some of which might not. For me, supply chain and skills deployment is a matter of broader Government policy, which Great British Energy can support.
As we stand here today, we do not necessarily have the right level of skilled capacity in the country to deliver all the ambitions that have been set out across infrastructure. It is important not just to look at the energy sector; a lot of the changes will require changes in the transport sector, the water sector and others, but that does not mean that we cannot have those skills if there is a broader framework to develop them, to train and to invest at scale in the supply chain. Great British Energy could play some role in that, but the broader policy framework and the Government’s ambitions more widely will dictate that to a greater degree.
The Chair
Thank you very much indeed for your time this afternoon, Mr Buckland. The Committee is indebted to you.
Examination of Witnesses
Olivia Powis, Jack Norquoy and Myrtle Dawes gave evidence.
The Chair
We are now going to hear oral evidence from Jack Norquoy, the director of communications and public affairs, Scottish Renewables, Myrtle Dawes, the chief executive officer of the Net Zero Technology Centre, and, I hope, from Olivia Powis, the chief executive of the Carbon Capture and Storage Association, although Ms Powis has been slightly delayed. We will proceed and hope that she is able to join us later. For this session we have until 3.50 pm. Please introduce yourselves for the benefit of the record.
Myrtle Dawes: My name is Myrtle Dawes. I am a chemical engineer and am currently CEO at the Net Zero Technology Centre. For those of you who do not know that organisation, it uses government funding to work with industry to accelerate and develop emerging technology.
Jack Norquoy: Good afternoon, Committee. I am Jack Norquoy, representing Scottish Renewables. We are the voice of Scotland’s renewable energy industry. We represent nearly 400 organisations working across all renewable energy technologies and the supply chain in Scotland.
Andrew Bowie
Q
“the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy”,
to include technology that might be involved in carbon capture and storage. It is not set out clearly within the Bill that that is the case. Ms Dawes, as somebody who works with the companies involved in the extraction and production of fossil fuels in Aberdeen and the drive to transition to net zero, do you share the concern with the narrow prescription of what GB Energy will be allowed to invest in and be involved in?
Myrtle Dawes: I understand their concern. From my perspective, I understood that that would be covered under clause 1(2)(b), which concerns the reduction of greenhouse gases. Fundamentally, the storage or utilisation of carbon dioxide comes with the reduction of greenhouse gases. [Interruption.] As Olivia is here, she could probably respond.
The Chair
Order. If I may interrupt, we have now been joined by Olivia Powis, who is chief executive of the Carbon Capture Association. For the benefit of the record and Hansard, could you identify yourself?
Olivia Powis: I apologise for being a couple of minutes late. I am Olivia Powis, chief executive officer of the Carbon Capture and Storage Association.
The Chair
There is no need to apologise; we understand the vagaries of travel in London and are grateful to you for joining us. Minister—shadow Minister, I beg your pardon—would you like to come back?
Andrew Bowie
Q
Thank you for joining us, Ms Powis. I was going to ask about the concerns that your association has brought to our attention about the definitions in the Bill, particularly in clause 3, concerning the objects that GBE is restricted to facilitating, encouraging or participating in. Please could you expand on those, and also on your suggested changes to the Bill, about which you kindly wrote to us two weeks ago?
Olivia Powis: I would be pleased to expand on that. We welcome the Bill and its support. In his opening remarks on Second Reading, the Secretary of State stated that
“Great British Energy will support project development”
to
“help speed up the roll-out of offshore wind and other technologies”—[Official Report, 5 September 2024; Vol. 753, c. 460.]
such as CCUS, wave, tidal and hydrogen.
We believe, however, that the narrow definition of clean energy in the current draft of the Bill could be prohibitive to low-carbon technologies and inadvertently limit the scope of GB Energy’s investments, thereby reducing the potential for public projects and hindering the UK’s ability to meet its net zero targets.
The definition of clean energy should be clarified to ensure that it encompasses energy sourced from fossil fuels when combined with carbon capture and storage—that is, when abated. We, alongside Hydrogen UK, have proposed some alternative wording that would enable abated fossil fuels to be included, and ensure the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions from energy produced from fossil fuels. We must future-proof this definition to make sure that GB Energy is able to invest safely in projects such as low-carbon energy with CCS and is not at risk of being challenged.
Jack Norquoy: I understand the concerns that have been raised. Some of our members will also be members of the Carbon Capture and Storage Association. I understand those concerns and am happy with the suggestions. Our recommendation for the Bill, and moving forward, is that it maintains alignment with what the Climate Change Committee has within its scope as part of our transition to net zero.
Andrew Bowie
Q
Olivia Powis: No, we would recommend that the wording is changed in the Bill so that it is future-proof. We welcome the words that came alongside it, but we want to ensure that it is future-proofed for when people come back to this legislation in five years’ time. It must be on the face of the Bill.
Andrew Bowie
Q
Myrtle Dawes: I am really excited about this. For reference, the Net Zero Technology Centre received £180 million of Government funding. We have managed to raise and match that with industry and go on to have more than 100 start-ups. We have more than 69 commercialised technologies. We have done more than 300 projects and gone on to give value back to GB of an order of one to nine in cost-benefit terms. When I see something like this, on a much bigger scale—our work is really a microcosm of this—it is really exciting. It is a catalyst sitting at the heart of Government, which will make sure that there is support for innovation during the period when it needs acceleration, when we need this technology to make things more efficient and drive down costs, and when we need to get good technology into the next set of infrastructure projects. For us, it is really exciting. Given what we have seen at the NZTC, it could go on to deliver quite a lot of value.
Jack Norquoy: I share that enthusiasm. Scottish Renewables has welcomed the development of GB Energy, alongside many of our members in industry. Of course, we welcome any additional investment at this time, particularly when we have heightened ambitions towards 2030. We have an unprecedented line of sight in Scotland with our pipeline, so we welcome the conversation and the development of GB Energy to deliver the support that will be needed to accelerate deployment.
We are particularly interested to see what the goals of GB Energy are. That has been set out in the Bill and in the surrounding documents, but we will need to see some clearer objectives and pathways to support that with industry. We appreciate that that might come after the Bill. We have interest in the governance, too; the importance of operational independence has been discussed today. Finance is very important to the heightened ambitions for what GB Energy will do, as the Bill sets out, but we also want GB Energy to work with industry.
This comes at a time when there are a lot of welcome moving parts in industry, such as the development of a strategic spatial energy plan, the national wealth fund and GB Energy. We welcome the Bill and we would like to see the establishment of GB Energy, but in the steps ahead we would like to see a pathway to give some assurance to our members in industry who are now actively involved in the pipeline on how they can help towards the deployment to 2030.
Andrew Bowie
Q
Jack Norquoy: The Bill includes a reference to working with Scottish Ministers, which is welcome, as part of improved relations at the moment, which are welcome too. On governance and devolved competency, as we heard in earlier evidence from the Crown Estate, the partnership with GB Energy is welcome. There will have to be development across the UK to support our net zero targets, but we want to ensure that there is parity with Crown Estate Scotland too. At the start, I highlighted the pipeline that we have sitting in Scotland. On the point about the competency of the Scottish Government, we would like to see some more detail—again, probably outwith the Bill—on how we can ensure parity between extra powers to the Crown Estate and to Crown Estate Scotland.
Stephen Flynn
Q
Myrtle Dawes: I suppose it would have to be towards the impact. Naturally, the budget we are looking at is well suited to innovation. The crowding in of money that we could get around that from investors—the impact that we could have by moving on a lot of projects—is quite significant.
To take the example of floating offshore wind, we have some of the best wind resources in Europe and actually the world. We are sitting with one of the best supply chains for subsea in the world, because the North sea has been the harshest place in the world to do business. If we are ever going to get an effective floating wind business, with technology and jobs here in the UK, we need to start and move on it now. Not only is there an opportunity to get electricity here in the UK, but we are very close to the heartland of Europe, which is also looking for electricity and for hydrogen. We can do lots of things where the impact, if we were to move now, would be great.
I have also worked on de-risking in major projects. They do need de-risking. I do not think that those in the supply chain are necessarily looking for a handout; they are looking for clarity, for investable business cases and for things where they can do the commercial work that they normally do. I can tell you that at the heart of this is technology that has to be sufficiently robust and reliable, and cheap enough that the product is cheap for the customer, who in this case is those who are using our energy.
Olivia Powis: I support everything that has been said. I think GB Energy offers the potential for targeted investment and support in areas of the value chain, for new innovations and across the supply chain. In particular, we look at some capture technologies with lower TRLs that would benefit from some investment, enabling them to move forward from what we refer to as the valley of death, to be able to compete on the open market. There are many opportunities within the innovation space.
Jack Norquoy: A big part of what GB Energy will do is the local power plan, to which a sizeable contribution of that £8 billion allocation has been made. You raised a point about how the rest of it will be spent; I echo the comments that have been made about innovation.
There will be a need for GB Energy to have a balance. That has been outlined in what we have seen so far, in that there will be a need to generate revenue in order for there to be a public return, but it is important that that money be targeted at high-risk areas where we need the longer-term strategic view to support innovation. Sectors in Scotland such as the marine energy sector would very much welcome that targeted support. So we have a balance between GB Energy being willing to take more risk than perhaps we have seen so far and some investment going towards the local power plan, developing the stable revenue that we will want to see coming through.
Olivia Blake
Q
Olivia Powis: We have proposed instead that the statement must provide that Great British Energy’s objects are restricted to facilitating and encouraging investment in, and participating in, one or more of the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy, and the reduction, directly or indirectly, of greenhouse gas emissions from energy derived from fossil fuels, where that clean energy definition means energy and molecules produced from sources other than unabated fossil fuels. It is just about being clear about that clean energy definition. We have been told that, as drafted, it would exclude those with fossil fuels.
Olivia Blake
Q
Olivia Powis: CCUS, as an industry, very much welcomes the announcements from Government last week and the further detail provided yesterday. There is lots of private sector investment helping to drive forward these projects. The funding commitment from Government is for projects once they are operational. Obviously there are still first-of-a-kind projects here, so I would not classify it as a very high risk. This is not a new technology; it is an industry that has been deployed elsewhere, and there is an understanding of how it will work.
There will be first-of-a-kind projects in the UK, and there could therefore be areas in which GB Energy could play a critical role. We have yet to really explore the extent—we would welcome further discussion on that—but there could be a role in enabling infrastructure, oversizing pipes, import terminals and port infrastructure. There is a role it could play in driving forward that enabling infrastructure investment.
The Chair
Ms Dawes and Mr Norquoy, have you anything to add?
Myrtle Dawes: I am glad to get the clarification. We also invest in CCUS; it is really important technology for industrial decarbonisation. As an engineer, I will tell you that there is risk involved in that, because we are used to steady state, and we will want to stop and start things. It is a refrigerant, so it will not like it.
There is quite a lot to do to reduce costs. The monitoring and verification of the stores is super-important. If we can turn a waste stream going to store into a product stream that is being utilised, that will be fantastic. That has to be the way we need to go. There is lots of technology to look at, both on the capture of emissions—direct air capture has its role, especially if we are going to look at some kinds of synthetic fuel—and on some of the emerging technologies around capturing carbon dioxide from seawater. Apart from the fact that we might also be able to mine some minerals from doing that, these are things that we should be looking at. It is all about getting the security of doing these things closer to home.
Pippa Heylings
Q
Jack Norquoy: I am happy to clarify that. We are content with the Bill; we understand the need to enable flexibility so that it can evolve over time. We certainly want GB Energy to be durable at a time that we are building a new energy system. There are various mechanisms, which I highlighted at the start. This is an opportune time to enable that durability. I think the scope is right; yes, it is wide, but that is important for longevity. We would want to see clarity within the business plan and as part of the statements that come following the Bill.
I think industry is very keen. We are operating at pace, so we want some clarity around the architecture in which this will sit, to give assurance to businesses that are ready to engage and want to work closely with the Government and GB Energy. As has been highlighted to the Committee today, we want a sense of the role of GB Energy, where it will end when it comes to the national wealth fund and where those can complement each other. We also want clarity on the established array of institutions at a UK level, primarily the UK Infrastructure Bank. That is compounded when you come to Scotland, where we have the good work of the Scottish National Investment Bank and Scottish Enterprise. I do not think that this detail is needed in the Bill, but clarity on some of that architecture would be very welcome shortly thereafter.
The Chair
As nobody else on the panel wishes to respond, and there are no further questions, may I thank you for your evidence? We are very grateful to you for coming in.
Examination of Witness
David Whitehouse gave evidence.
The Chair
We will now take oral evidence from David Whitehouse, the chief executive of Offshore Energies UK. For this session, we have until 4.10 pm. Mr Whitehouse, for the benefit of the record, could you please identify yourself?
David Whitehouse: I am David Whitehouse. I am the chief executive of Offshore Energies UK.
Andrew Bowie
Q
David Whitehouse: Looking at the 400 members that we represent—people investing in our oil and gas, wind developers, people investing in carbon storage, but also a huge supply chain—I do not think we are sceptical. As an organisation, looking at our 400 members and at the 200,000 people who work in the sector, we see that journey to net zero as a real opportunity for the UK and for Scotland if we build on our industrial strengths. We are so lucky in this country that we have brilliant people and a world-class supply chain; we are also lucky that the wind blows and that we have the North sea and other assets. We must make best use of them.
Within the context of a wider energy strategy, we absolutely welcome GB Energy. It will play a role in a bigger energy strategy and a bigger industrial strategy. How do we see GB Energy working? We see it unlocking opportunities that otherwise would not happen. It will not create value if it simply replicates what the private sector would do anyway—I think that will be acknowledged in the priorities that I would expect to see from the Secretary of State. There is a still a huge role to play in de-risking projects, as well as in some of the local energy projects that have been raised. There is a huge opportunity to invest in technology and future infrastructure.
We touched on infrastructure with our European neighbours. How do we interact with it? Already, we have a number of companies looking at what kind of projects meet the mandate of GB Energy and would fulfil it. Do not forget the world-class supply chain that we have. We will fail in this country if we do not recognise how important our supply chain is. Our oil and gas supply chain is world-class. The transferability of those skills to what GB Energy needs to deliver is huge. There is a massive appetite for us to leverage the skills that we have and use GB Energy as a vehicle to deliver value for the country.
Andrew Bowie
Q
David Whitehouse: I think what you have is a Bill that, as you have heard in evidence, provides broad definitions and broad statements of intent. In and of itself, it is a platform to deliver that. What will be critical is that the Government, the Secretary of State and the devolved Governments, who have welcomed this, work together and honour the words about working in partnership with industry to take what is on paper and turn it into a reality of unlocking opportunities that would not be happening—opportunities for communities up and down the UK, and certainly for our key supply chain companies—to help us to accelerate some of the critical projects that need to be unlocked.
Andrew Bowie
Q
“Great British Energy’s objects are restricted to facilitating…the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy…the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions…improvements in energy efficiency, and…measures for ensuring the security of the supply of energy.”
Is there any concern from among your members that the stated objects will prevent GB Energy from partnering with or investing in some of those companies, given that they have an existing footprint in the oil and gas sector?
David Whitehouse: We will look to bring clarity in that area. The interpretation we have taken and the conversations we have had indicate that this would not preclude companies from investing in that manner, and that the Bill is broadly defined to allow all companies to invest. That is something we very much welcome. We see the journey to net zero as being one of inclusivity, not exclusivity. As I have said, we represent companies that produce oil and gas, which have a critical role in our energy mix, but in terms of bringing forward technology, as it stands, no, we do not think that. There is an opportunity, though, as the Secretary of State brings forward the priorities, to provide clarity that those things would not be excluded.
Andrew Bowie
Q
David Whitehouse: The position we have always taken is that you have energy communities up and down the UK. We have a very proud energy sector, and in principle I think you could have put GB Energy in many places, but we welcome it in Aberdeen. The reason we welcome it in Aberdeen is because that is where you see a real density of high-quality operators, high-quality developers and high-quality supply chain. That is the right place to put it. We take confidence that this journey to net zero must be about inclusivity, and about breaking down barriers and building bridges. Having GB Energy centred in Aberdeen is a good statement of intent that this Government—it was also supported by the Scottish Government—recognise that as well. We need to make the most of our industrial strength. Placing this in Aberdeen is a good statement of intent, so we welcome that.
Torcuil Crichton
Q
David Whitehouse: Apologies: what was the word they were using?
Torcuil Crichton
Some see them as a threat, not an opportunity.
David Whitehouse: Okay. So I need to do a better job, because I do not see a threat whatsoever. In the UK at the moment, we are on a journey. The Climate Change Committee says that we must hit our net zero targets by 2050, and on that journey 50% of our energy under the balanced pathway will come from oil and gas. Today we produce only about half of what we need, so it is right that, in my opinion, if the industry is held to account, we should prioritise domestic oil and gas.
Our members see no threat from accelerating the path to renewable energy. It will take time, but it is absolutely the right thing to do. The only concern or consideration from our perspective is, “Yes, of course, accelerate.” Our members are actually investing in that, and our supply chain members are using their revenues from oil and gas to invest in that transition. It is an opportunity, not a threat.
What we need, though, is that balanced discussion with those who work in the oil and gas sector. We have a voice: we are Offshore Energies UK, not “Oil and Gas UK”. That is because companies, supply chains and people are evolving, and you want that big tent if you are going to be successful in bringing it forward. If you are getting that feedback from those in the sector, I hope that in the coming weeks and months you will not hear that.
Stephen Flynn
Q
David Whitehouse: I think we all recognise that on the journey to net zero a huge amount of investment is required to get us there—the Climate Change Committee says that £1.4 trillion is required. The lion’s share will come from the private sector, so GB Energy will help, but actually we need to create the conditions more broadly where we have investment in the energy sector that turns into enduring value. That is what we need to deliver, and we can talk about that.
Where GB Energy can play a role is in those opportunities that would not otherwise have happened, such as through the opportunity to de-risk projects. If we look at things such as carbon storage, de-risking and understanding the nature of the carbon stores and using that as an opportunity to buy into future investments is a role that GB Energy can and should play.
We have spoken about connectivity with Europe. Scotland and the UK’s future will be hydrogen pipelines to Europe, and there is a role for a state player to crowd in private sector money make those projects happen. We often talk about GB Energy as an investment vehicle but, if we work in partnership with industry, it should be much more than that. Getting money is difficult, but it is not always the most difficult thing that we have to do, so it is about unblocking the other issues. There are 13 years from consent to the delivery of the first electrons. It is in those areas where we can have a state player sitting with industry that understands our challenges and what we need to do. We often talk about GB Energy as an investment vehicle, but it should have a bigger vision than that.
Harriet Cross
Q
David Whitehouse: There is no doubt that the UK and Scotland are in a global race for investment, and we need to create an environment where we are attracting investment. I sit in a sector that has been battered to some degree by public perception and by tax changes. There are things that are happening outwith GB Energy that, as a country, we need to look at. We need to make a great environment for investment.
Time does matter; GB Energy will start to come to life when the Secretary of State puts forward priorities. The thing that we would ask—I think you have heard it from others—is about bringing forward the strategic priorities for GB Energy. The statement should be something that we are engaged in and are bringing forward now. It should come forward in a timely manner, but it must make sure that it has taken on board the necessary engagement with industry, Governments and other key stakeholders. Time is always of the essence.
Perran Moon
Q
David Whitehouse: For me, there are areas—I have touched on them slightly—where you look at the projects and their timelines, and if you have more data and more information up front, it massively shrinks the time from taking on a licence, or whatever it is, to turning that into carbon stored or electricity generated. There is an opportunity for an entity like GB Energy to invest in some of that up-front data gathering to de-risk those projects. GB Energy would then have the opportunity to trade that for a share in the future projects that come from that. We will see how that shows in the priorities, but that is a clear area where GB Energy can invest now to get data and use it to leverage equity stakes in projects moving forward, which I think is very much consistent with the founding principles of GB Energy.
We also touched on the infrastructure that is required in the UK, much of which is now being dealt with through the National Energy System Operator, and people will have spoken at length about the issues around the grid. There is so much more that we need to deliver a net zero future for the UK and for Europe. Again, a state investor with a long-term investment horizon can now be in the position where we start talking about what networks we need across the North sea to be successful. Having an entity like GB Energy crowding in private sector money is a great opportunity to unlock some of that.
Perran Moon
Q
David Whitehouse: I think it will and should be one of the priorities of GB Energy that our drive for clean energy must be done in a way where we create those supply chains. How do we do that? We already have—we can provide it to the Committee—a good assessment of the quality of the UK supply chain and what its capabilities are. We have a good understanding of what those future renewable opportunities are, and you are absolutely right that there are supply chain opportunities across the country, in essentially every constituency. We have that knowledge.
Now we need GB Energy to recognise what those opportunities are. There are projects to be invested in that GB Energy should be part of, and it should be directing and working with industry and the supply chain to make sure that we take the opportunities to grow our supply chain. We have a lot of significant companies that we should grow. It is a fantastic export but also delivers in our own country. Myrtle will have touched on it: we have a whole host of acorns around this country that could be grown into massive oaks. It will probably use less flowery language, but that should be one of the principles of GB Energy. We have supply chain acorns that we can identify, and we must turn them into the oaks that this country needs.
Wera Hobhouse
Q
There was a question this morning about whether the Bill should specify that GB Energy should look at the gap in financial markets when it comes to support for new technology companies that otherwise would not make it through the valleys of death. As I understand it, there are not enough financial products out there, from private equity, ordinary banks or other investment opportunities. Can we put anything in the Bill to make addressing that particular gap more of a priority?
David Whitehouse: I am sorry; I wish I could give you a better answer. I have spoken with our members. In some way, shape or form, we think the Bill as it stands is broad and provides the opportunity for the Secretary of State and others to bring forward the statement of principles. That is where we would see some of that.
The Government will also bring forward an industrial strategy, and linked to that will be our energy policy. I think there is such a good opportunity within those—we will have representation from industry, which understands some of the issues, and there will be representatives from our investors across the sector. From our members’ feedback, I think that is where they would see that input: in those broader ways.
Catherine Fookes
Q
David Whitehouse: Let me talk about inclusivity in general terms. I am studying for a master’s in renewables; I am the energy transition, albeit slightly older. When we talk about inclusivity, those who come from an oil and gas heritage are sometimes excluded from the conversation. You need all those voices. When I talk about inclusivity, it is about “bring all the voices”.
How do we improve what we are doing? I have a couple of brief comments. Speaking personally, I thought the legislation on the gender pay gap was excellent. What does it do? It makes conversations and debates happen. Last week in the sector, we spoke about Vision 2030—how we are going to deliver on a sector that is truly inclusive, that looks like the future, not the past, and that is attracting the next generation, with commitments about targets that we wish to achieve.
There are seven pillars on the path to getting there. How do we do that? You need commitment from leaders in the sector; I think we can give you that. You need some targets; I think we can give you them. We also need a plan of action that holds us to account. I come back to the path to net zero: we will not do this if we are not inclusive and not attracting across the entire spectrum, the entire country.
The Chair
Order. I think we can say that that is fairly close to being outside the scope of the Bill. I am absolutely confident that the next question will be within it.
Uma Kumaran
Q
David Whitehouse: I am an engineer, so it is simple engineering stuff. Collaboration: I was pleased to see the Scottish Government and other devolved Governments welcome this. I do not think GB Energy is the convening force in and of itself, but the convening power, which means we have Governments around the country working together for a common goal, is an important part of what GB Energy can provide a focus for.
Collaboration is really important. We need collaboration among our regulators. We have a complex regulatory framework. The view many of our members take is that to change our regulatory framework to be exactly what we require for this journey would take so long that the train would have gone. What GB Energy will do, and what it can see and help with, is alignment between our regulatory bodies—bodies in the devolved Governments and the wider UK Government. It will also see what the other barriers to investment are.
I think there is good cross-party consensus about the journey we need to go on to drive collaboration. Looking at what needs to be done to help with the simple co-ordination between different competing projects can drive down costs and drive efficiency. We should look at what we can do to reduce the cycle time. There is 15 years from licence to electricity—unfortunately, in my experience, I am probably on year 30 from carbon storage to actually injecting it. There is a significant role there that GB Energy should be growing into, and it should be playing in that space.
The Chair
I apologise for the slight distraction at this end of the table. We have been trying to juggle timings in connection with the imminent Division.
As there are no further questions, Mr Whitehouse, may I thank you for your contribution? We are most grateful.
Examination of Witness
Andy Prendergast gave evidence.
The Chair
We are likely to have a Division in the House, so I am afraid that we will have to ask you—if you have the time, Mr Prendergast—to allow us to go and vote and then come back if we have not finished your evidence session.
Andy Prendergast: Yes, that is fine.
The Chair
You are most kind. With that in mind, we will now hear evidence from Andy Prendergast, who is the national secretary of the GMB. We have until 4.30 pm, in theory, but we may be interrupted. Mr Prendergast, for the benefit of the record could you identify yourself?
Andy Prendergast: I am Andy Prendergast, national secretary of GMB union.
Andrew Bowie
Q
Andy Prendergast: We see GB Energy as a long-overdue, desperately needed step. As a country, and as someone who works for a union supporting tens of thousands of energy workers and people who work in energy-intensive industries, there is a real problem at the moment when we look across the world at the investments being made in green technologies and what other Governments are doing to ensure that those investments lead to jobs and supply chains in their nations. What we see in Britain is a complete failure to match that, whether it is the Inflation Reduction Act in America, or European subsidies.
As a union, we regularly sit down with investors who have shovel-ready projects that have the opportunity and potential to transform huge swathes of Britain in areas that we have called “left behind”, “post-industrial” or “red wall”, but we simply cannot get the support to get those through. The investors are telling us that if they decide to put their site in Philadelphia, they get huge subsidies and tax breaks; if they decide to put it in Germany, they get subsidies and Government support, but in Britain there is simply a void.
I have heard quite a lot of people talk about the importance of supply chains. I will be honest: for my union, we do not necessarily see that to the same degree. If we look at offshore wind, we see jackets, technology and blades that are not made in Britain. We have huge swathes of the country where people are willing and able to work, yet they are sitting there watching this technology be imported in. In the case of the Methil fabrication site in Scotland, which is currently sitting without work, they are watching the wind turbines that they could be building being put up in the sea in front of them. We need to avoid that, and I think GB Energy is the first step to doing that—a step, frankly, that should have been taken a long time ago.
Andrew Bowie
Q
Do you think that the aims and objects of this Bill go wide enough? Do you think that there is broad enough scope for the different technologies that GB Energy will have to invest in? We have heard the CCSA raise slight concerns that there might not be the scope for investment in carbon capture, for example, where a lot of new jobs are going to be created, and presumably a lot of those will be members of the GMB.
Andy Prendergast: We fought for carbon capture to be included. As far as we are concerned, having checked the wording, we think that is covered. An issue we have on the scope is whether the funds are sufficient to back the ambition. Before the election, we were talking £28 billion at one point. What we have offers a huge scale and a huge opportunity, and while ultimately we would like to see more money, this is genuine, real money that was not there before. That is a step in the right direction. From a trade unionist point of view, I very frequently argue about a lack of money—we do it on a daily basis everywhere.
Another concern with the Bill, which I think the Bill itself addresses, is the relationship between GB Energy and GB Nuclear. We desperately need new nuclear. We are waiting for the decision on Sizewell and we would like to see the decision on Wylfa as well as small modular reactors. There is a genuine question about whether SMRs fit under the remit of GB Energy or GB Nuclear, and it needs to be resolved. SMRs are another of those technologies that British brains created but, if we are not careful, we will see the supply chains go overseas. It is an industry that is likely to be £180 billion within a decade. The choice we have with that is either to support British companies such as Rolls-Royce or, as with wind, to import this key technology that should be supporting companies and jobs throughout Britain.
Andrew Bowie
Q
Andy Prendergast: I am not necessarily saying that it needs to be in the Bill, but it needs to happen quite quickly. The Bill refers to the fact that it needs to be bottomed out, and every route we look at to net zero requires a huge increase in the amount of nuclear power. We need that decision on Sizewell quite quickly. I do not look at that as key to GB Energy, but it needs to be resolved.
Josh MacAlister
Q
Andy Prendergast: The most important thing to say about nuclear is that the nuclear industry in Britain is, to a degree, a tragedy. We invented it. The first civil nuclear site in the world was British, and yet when we came to Hinkley Point, we had to import the know-how and technology and reinvent the wheel. What we have done in Hinkley Point has been amazing. The site employs tens of thousands of people and provides real, skilled jobs—the kind of jobs people are proud to do, which is very important.
If we look at the lessons we learned from Hinkley and transfer them to Sizewell, we start speeding up the process. If we then go on to Wylfa, it becomes easier to take them through. The key thing it shows is that we cannot have those huge gaps. When we have gaps, we lose the skills. What is frightening for us in so many areas is that we are talking about an energy transformation, but we simply do not have the skills to transform at the speed we need to.
There is an estimated lack of 40,000 welders in this country. In the near future we will need more pylons, a huge amount of work on the water mains, SMRs, CCS and hydrogen. I sat on a load of Government bodies with the last Government, and all I kept hearing was, “We need more welders.” You had to take a view that, sadly, repeating “We need more welders” does not magically lead to a lot of welders showing up. We need the investment in the skills and in the supply chain to ensure that we get the right people in the right place.
It is important to say that welding jobs are fantastically well paid. They are jobs that get paid more than most people in this room. There should not be a problem employing welders in this country if we simply resort to capitalism, so if there is a problem, how do we identify it and how do we get around it?
Josh MacAlister
Thank you. I think I should have declared an interest at the start of that question as the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on nuclear energy.
The Chair
Thank you. That is a matter of record, and I gently advise any other Members who have a similar interest to declare it.
Wera Hobhouse
Q
Andy Prendergast: From a lot of the conversations we have had, talking about a one-stop shop, assistance in planning and further regulatory support, I think that is something that will evolve over time and will be matched by the funding. An investment vehicle is badly needed on its own because it is something we do not have, which makes us almost unique among advanced economies. Looking at the Bill itself, there are parts that could be fleshed out. We would like to see more about skills, as I just mentioned, and there are some parts that we need to look at, but that is an evolutionary process as opposed to something we definitely need in the Bill now.
Stephen Flynn
Q
Andy Prendergast: If I may take the second part first, one key thing the public want is to see lower energy bills. We know that. A potential issue with GB Energy being so popular is that, to a degree, not everyone knew what it was. Some people think it will lead to an immediate reduction in energy bills. We are likely to see that over a longer period of time, but GB Energy needs to make the investments in new technologies that we have failed to make and that we have too often missed the boat on. If you compare us to Denmark, for example, 14% of its exports are in green technology. That is because it has Ørsted, which is very similar to what we are trying to do with GB Energy, but ultimately it has had a long run into this and has stolen a march. What GB Energy belatedly allows us to do is potentially to steal a march on some of the new technologies that have not been exploited, with a view to supporting those supply chains in the important parts.
Could you repeat the first part of your question, please?
Stephen Flynn
It was about the quantum that is available. You referred to IRA and the EU’s corresponding investment. The quantum for GB Energy is £8.3 billion over the course of five years, or £1.6 billion per year. Do you think that is sufficient to meet the objectives laid out in the Bill?
Andy Prendergast: I think it is sufficient to make some of them and sufficient to make a difference; it is not sufficient to make as much of a difference as we would like it to, but compared with what we had beforehand, it is light years ahead of where we have been.
Olivia Blake
Q
“measures for ensuring the security of the supply of energy”—
in the Bill for your members, given the global situation in which we find ourselves? Secondly, which of the objects in the Bill will have the most impact, or in what ways will the Bill have an impact on your members?
Andy Prendergast: The first point about energy supply was really brought home around the start of the Ukraine war, which exposed how unprepared we were. Whereas your average European country had months of gas supplies, we had a matter of weeks. We went into that war with the largest gas supply place in the world, Rough, unused. One thing we must understand, with the evolving nature of Government, is what is the very minimum that we expect Government to do. I think the very minimum people expect Government to do now is to keep the lights on and keep us secure. That is how important energy is. Sometimes, when you speak to some politicians, there is almost a view that energy is an optional extra, but I do not think that that has been the case for about 150 years. God forbid we go back to that.
When we talk about energy supply and security, it is about two things—[Interruption.]
The Chair
Mr Prendergast, I am sorry that you were interrupted. It was very good of you to stay. I believe I am right in saying that Ms Blake had a second question.
Olivia Blake
Q
Andy Prendergast: Both in terms of shoring up the jobs we currently have and potentially creating the jobs we so desperately need, one of our real concerns about net zero is the fact that, in a lot of countries, there is a perception that net zero is something being done to people, not with them. Look at the response in America, which is very much typified by “Drill, baby, drill”; look at Germany, where, bizarrely, Alternative für Deutschland is organising around heat pumps. We already have Reform UK talking about fighting the next election on the basis of net zero.
What we have recognised is that we have to make net zero work for people, and we think the best way of making that happen is to ensure that net zero comes with jobs and opportunities. The simple reality is that, if we get it right, those jobs and opportunities are going to be in the post-industrial areas. We have seen the maps put forward by people in the hydrogen lobby and from carbon capture and storage. These are jobs in places that desperately need them. If we are going to be serious about levelling up and making sure that prosperity is spread in Britain, we need to rebuild those industrial heartlands with proper, decent technologies that we can start exporting.
Andrew Pakes
Q
Andy Prendergast: That is a very good question. We have been really pleased to see that the role of trade unions is incorporated in the Bill, although we do need to flesh out exactly how that works.
Your criticism of the renewables industry, particularly for members of the GMB, is absolutely critical. When people talk about our role in industry, what they are often talking about is the white-collar jobs—the ones in universities, getting the technology. They are not talking about the blue-collar jobs, which, at the moment, are the ones in the energy sector that are very well unionised, with good rates of pay and excellent terms and conditions, and which give the security that families and communities need for the long term.
What really concerns us about the renewables industry so far is that it came with the promise of mass jobs that simply have not materialised. Alex Salmond promised 30,000 jobs in offshore wind; 10 years later, fewer than 10,000 have been delivered. Particularly when you are looking at maintenance jobs, you are talking about jobs that are subcontracted with terrible terms and conditions and that are anti-union. When we look at the success that places like America or Europe have had in renewables, trade unions are at the heart of that.
What we have seen so far is a real willingness from the Government to work with both ourselves and employers. One of the bizarre things about it is that those coalitions really have an impact. One of the most surprising days in my job was attending a meeting here and being praised by a Tory MP, which I never thought would happen—it was one of those pinch-yourself moments. It was in relation to Hinkley Point: it was recognised that we had a huge role there in helping to develop the workforce and to manage the process of ensuring both that they benefited and that we got things done quickly and properly.
If we get that right, this is an opportunity to bring not just jobs but good jobs. In a lot of the areas that we are talking about, we have this constant debate about “red wall” and about “post-industrial”. It is not that there are no jobs there; it is just that the jobs being brought in are not very good ones. They are not jobs that offer permanent contracts. They are not jobs that offer good pensions, sick pay or opportunities for advancement. They are zero-hours contracts—got here today, gone tomorrow—that give people very little pride. This is an opportunity to reverse that 40-year decline in our industrial base and do something positive about it.
Uma Kumaran
Q
Andy Prendergast: Part of this is about listening without prejudice. Look, we are going to be absolute clear: we agree with the Labour Government on a huge swathe of things, but one thing we do not agree on is the ending of oil and gas licences. We look at oil and gas licences and every single scenario into the future requires us to have oil and gas. We as a nation have a choice. We either take it for ourselves, with high working and environmental standards, or we import it from a number of frankly disreputable regimes.
Part of that transition has to be listening to those communities and the people doing the jobs and actually take their expertise. We are absolutely clear—and I think it is obvious to anyone with half a brain—that global warming is happening and the speed at which is happening is quicker. It is the biggest challenge that humanity has faced, certainly in my lifetime, and we need to deal with it. The concern for us, and this relates to what I was talking about earlier, is that if we get this wrong and we do not listen to communities and do not bring them with us, we risk getting a reaction against that, which is what we have seen in America and Europe. Then, instead of doing it a little bit slower but in a demonstrable and deliverable way, we end up with an electorate being offered simple solutions and quick fixes, and ultimately due to a mixture of climate pessimism and snake oil salesmen, they take the wrong decision. We have to look at some of this from a pragmatic angle, ask what is best in the national interest and listen to the workers and communities who are currently benefiting.
Torcuil Crichton
Q
Andy Prendergast: The role of trade unions is key. I have always had a very simple view: trade unions are about democracy at work. We are a country that believes in democracy so much that we invade other countries to give it to them whether they want it or not, and yet the idea of democratisation at the workplace is an anathema—certainly to what was over half of Parliament.
We need to listen to workers and ensure that they share in the success of businesses and ultimately that their sacrifices and those of their families are recognised. When we look at the work that is going to be coming out, we know that we have to do this. We have been asking for an industrial plan for years, and I think GB Energy is part of that industrial plan. That industrial plan has to be a road map of how we do this properly, how we engage those communities and how we provide the support necessary to make a transition.
I mentioned going to Denmark. When I was there, something fascinating happened: they closed a bacon plant, which was 1,000 jobs. You sit there and say, “That’s terrible. In Britain, we’d be fighting that. We’d be on picket lines.” In Denmark, because of the support given in social security and retraining, and the industrial strategy, it was seen as an opportunity for people to get better jobs. That was also helped an awful lot by the fact that those people were getting 90% of their salary paid for up to a year, so people thought, “Well, it’s a better job and a bit of a holiday in the meantime.” That shows what happens when you engage people properly.
What you ended up with is something that would decimate a community in Britain but rejuvenated a community in Denmark. That is because there was a tripartite strategy of listening to unions, talking to Government and talking to employers, and everyone put their heads together to come up with a solution to what would clearly be a problem. We have failed at that in Britain for years.
The Chair
Mr Prendergast, thank you very much indeed for your patience and for answering our questions this afternoon. The Committee is indebted to you. I am most grateful.
Would the Minister leading on the Bill like to meta-morphose himself and take the witness stand?
Examination of Witness
Michael Shanks MP gave evidence.
The Chair
Q
Michael Shanks: Good afternoon. I am Michael Shanks, the Minister for Energy.
Andrew Bowie
Q
“There will be a range of projects, in some of which we will certainly have the controlling stake, and some of which we might help to get over the line, but in every single project there will be a return for the British taxpayer.” —[Official Report, 26 July 2024; Vol. 752, c. 939.]
We have already talked about how GB Energy will be important—almost the key partner in investing in riskier technologies. How can you guarantee that every single project will have a return for the British taxpayer?
Michael Shanks: It is important to say that the return for the taxpayer will take different forms. We have been really clear in all the briefings we have done on the Bill and in the founding statement that in some we will take an equity stake, in some there will be debt financing, and in others we might provide some of the capacity for organisations to take forward some of the funding or project delivery themselves. In each one of those, we expect that GB Energy will play a part in delivering those projects, getting them over the line and delivering for the British people. That will be done in a variety of ways.
Some of it will absolutely be money coming back to GB Energy, which we have said will either be further invested in more projects or give a return to the Treasury to fund public services in different ways, but it might also be that on community energy, for example, we help community projects to get up and running. That also delivers a return for those communities.
Andrew Bowie
Q
Michael Shanks: I am saying very clearly that the aim of setting up GB Energy is that, like other countries right across the world, we can have a stake in some of the projects we are delivering. That is quite normal in many European countries. Indeed, the previous Government found it acceptable for those projects to set up in the UK too; it is just that they did not want the UK to have a stake in any publicly owned energy. It is a very common method of delivering projects like this, and giving a return to the British taxpayer is important. It will take many different forms.
In time, there will absolutely be a significant financial return on many of these projects, but in some of them, as you rightly say, de-risking them and getting them over the line will involve us taking a strategy that means that, on individual projects, we might not make an immediate return. But the overall vision of GB Energy is that it will play a part in helping us achieve our targets by 2030, and the British public will have a stake in that future. That is something we believe in, and we hope all Members of Parliament support it.
Andrew Bowie
Q
Michael Shanks: I think there are two different questions there. If you look at the rest of Europe, there are fantastic companies—EDF, Ørsted, Statkraft—that are delivering many of these projects in the UK. It is a model that clearly works, and that delivers economic and social benefits to those countries and to the people living in them. If we look at the price spike when Ukraine was invaded, EDF was able to mitigate some of that significant rise in bills for people in France. We are not saying that within six months of setting up GB Energy, it is going to compete with Equinor or Ørsted—of course we are not—but it is important that we start that journey. Of course, all these publicly owned companies started somewhere. They have been able to invest in the future to get to the scale that they are now, and to deliver significant projects in the process.
The second point of the question is important. GB Energy is not designed to displace any of those companies—or any other companies, incidentally—in delivering projects in the UK. It is about crowding in additional investment. We know that 2030 is going to be a real challenge. We have been very clear that we have set a target that we think is extremely ambitious, but achievable. When NESO publishes its road map shortly, it will give the detail on how we are going to get there. But we have to start somewhere, and I think GB Energy is a critical part of delivering that and will play a significant role in getting us to 2030—and, crucially, beyond 2030.
Andrew Bowie
Q
Moving on, some concern has been raised today that there has not been very much clarification, or that there is some confusion, over the status, operational independence and autonomy of Great British Nuclear within GB Energy. I wondered if you might expand on that and maybe think about putting something in the Bill regarding Great British Nuclear and its relationship with Great British Energy.
Michael Shanks: That is a really important question. We have said throughout that we want to have further discussions about the role of Great British Nuclear. I think folding it into Great British Energy is probably not the right solution, because what is really important—credit to your Government for doing this—is that the board of Great British Nuclear has significant expertise in nuclear projects. I think that is important for us to maintain. Clearly, there will be synergies and work together on certain projects, but they have, in some ways, quite different remits in terms of the investments we expect them to make, so I think they probably will remain in some form independent of each other. Clearly, the partnership working between them will be important, and we will say more on that in the coming months.
Andrew Bowie
I agree with you entirely on what you said about Great British Nuclear. Sir Roger, I think we should note that the Minister has just credited the former Government with something. I think it is the first time—
Michael Shanks: I think I credited you earlier as well. This is becoming a habit.
Andrew Bowie
Q
Michael Shanks: No, I will not be. To be fair to Juergen Maier, what he said very clearly was that in the initial set-up phase and for some time afterwards, we are talking employees in the hundreds based in the headquarters. Eventually, we think it may expand beyond that in Aberdeen and in the satellite offices, and indeed in any other set-ups that we have across the UK. I think the critical point on jobs is that the role of GB Energy is to invest in projects where we are creating new well-paid, trade-unionised jobs in the UK. That is critical. The jobs are not necessarily going to be in the headquarters of GB Energy, but they will be created by GB Energy’s investment. That is where the tens of thousands of jobs right across the UK will come from.
The Chair
I understand that that was out of order this morning, but you got your answer in the end.
Perran Moon
Q
I can safely say that the people of Cornwall are really excited about GB Energy. Expectations are very high. We are a post-industrial community that has suffered for decades from lack of investment. More recently, however, we have discovered that investment is now going into our tin industry; we have the third highest-grade tin deposits in the world. We also have lithium. We face the Celtic sea, so we have a huge opportunity with offshore wind and onshore wind. We have companies setting up in geothermal, solar and tidal, and we have the country’s largest ground source heat pump.
Can you elaborate on the potential benefits for communities such as Cornwall, where we have such a wide array of opportunity, and say how GB Energy will support those opportunities? And if I may be a little bit cheeky, we have heard quite a lot today about the head office being set up in Aberdeen with satellite offices being set up in Edinburgh and Glasgow, but I will just point out that there is another corner of the United Kingdom that would be delighted to have a satellite office.
Michael Shanks: May I thank you for the question? I think that, in asking it, you have successfully elaborated on all the potentials of Cornwall, which I am sure your constituents will be delighted about.
However, you make a really important point on two fronts. The aim of GB Energy is to crowd in investment in projects right across the United Kingdom. Yes, we are very proud to say that the headquarters will be in Scotland and—importantly—specifically in Aberdeen, as the Prime Minister announced. That is partly to recognise the energy story in the north-east of Scotland for the last 60 years in oil and gas, and the importance of the transition. However, it is also important to say that on the renewables journey Scotland has also been leading the way and will continue to do so in so many ways. It is right that the headquarters is in Aberdeen, building on the talent, experience and skills that are already there.
On the broader point, though, there are real opportunities for investments in every corner of the UK. To go back to some of the earlier points that witnesses made, this is a combination of policies; it is not just GB Energy in isolation. We have been really clear that we are a Government that are not agnostic about industrial strategy, and that we want to see manufacturing in the UK, and the thousands of jobs that could have been created by some of our offshore wind projects, for example, but actually went to other countries before we towed the projects into British waters. We want to see those jobs in this country and that will create opportunities across the country in the supply chains, in skill developments and in lots of other opportunities, including in Cornwall.
Although I absolutely cannot commit to opening an office in Cornwall and I would like the record to reflect that, I think there will be opportunities for your part of the world and indeed for the whole of the UK.
Harriet Cross
Q
Michael Shanks: That is a really fair question. The question of risk appetite is important; that is partly why setting up GB Energy as a company, regulated by the Companies Act and with a fiduciary board made up of financial experts who have a responsibility as a board of directors for the direction of the company and for its financial results, is so important.
There has to be some risk appetite, and one of the earlier witnesses made a point that I would agree with—if there are absolutely no projects that do not have any risk at all, GB Energy is not really filling the gap. It is really important that GB Energy can move in the spaces where the current investors are not necessarily finding those opportunities. Crucially, however, GB Energy is obviously owned by the taxpayer and therefore, as a backstop, there is a real conviction that it will only invest in things that have a likelihood of producing a return for the taxpayer.
Of course, when we get into making individual decisions, that is partly why it is important the Bill does not go into a granular level of detail on every single thing that GB Energy will do, because it is really important that we give that board, those experts and everyone they bring in to advise them, the space to move into opportunities as they emerge.
If we were to go back five or 10 years, we would not have thought that we were about to have the world’s biggest floating offshore wind farm off the coast of the UK. That would not be on the face of a Bill like this, but actually it is a huge potential opportunity for us and we would like those kinds of opportunities to be open to GB Energy to explore.
Olivia Blake
Q
Josh MacAlister
He has had this from every Scottish MP for the past six months.
Olivia Blake
Well, we have not heard enough about God’s own county here today.
There has been a lot of positivity from witnesses; some of them seemed quite excited about the Bill. I want to understand, from your perspective, why it has taken a change of Government to see this sort of Bill come forward, and what your ambition is for it.
Michael Shanks: That is really important. Last week, I visited Ratcliffe-on-Soar power station, the last coal-powered station in the UK, and it was a good example of the just transition in practice. It was the right thing that we phased out coal; the TUC itself confirmed that that was exactly how to deal with workers in such a difficult situation where you are moving people from one industry and transitioning them into something else. It was a properly planned process, which is what we want to see in industry.
You are right: we absolutely want to avoid what happened with coalmining in the 1980s. It goes back to what I was saying earlier: this Government are not agnostic about the future of jobs and manufacturing in our industrial communities right across the country. It is important that we invest in them not only because, frankly, we are in a race against the world for all the parts we need to deliver the future of energy, and we will need to produce some of them in this country, but because good, well-paid, skilled jobs are how we will manage the transition in a fair and prosperous way. It is critical for us.
I think it matches other policies. Yes, GB Energy will be a key part, but the industrial strategy will also be important. The national wealth fund and a whole range of levers will be important. The office for clean energy jobs is all about saying that, as a Government, we are committed to the future of this workforce and to creating tens of thousands of new jobs that do not currently exist.
Wera Hobhouse
Q
Michael Shanks: I think it is a combination of things. I urge you to read the Great British Energy founding statement document alongside the Bill, because it is important. The Bill is about setting up a company, and what we do not want to do is hamstring that company by putting in so much detail that it cannot move into the right places that give good investment opportunities for the taxpayer and deliver good energy projects.
The statement makes it clear that community energy, for example, is a key part of our local power plan. We want to see many more community-owned energy projects, for a combination of reasons. They have real social and economic benefits for communities. For us, there is the belief that communities having a stake in those projects is important: communities having ownership and feeling part of the mission will help us with some of the arguments for the amount of infrastructure that we will have to build in the next few years. Also, in certain areas we want small-scale generation projects to have access to connections that bigger projects cannot have. Frankly, in a lot of cases, building the power generation near the population is where we have issues with spatial energy planning across the country.
There are huge opportunities. We are committed to increasing community ownership. We have also said in the local power plan that it could look like municipal ownership of certain generation projects, or it could look like local authorities or combined authorities. We are quite open about what it looks like, but we want to create a landscape where Great British Energy can invest and also provide some capacity to help organisations to get over the line. We all know that local government is struggling and is on its knees right across the country, after years of underfunding. The capacity to deliver a lot of the projects is not there, so GB Energy can fill that gap.
Catherine Fookes
Q
Michael Shanks: That is an important question. We have done several different things already. I have had many conversations with my counterparts in the Welsh Government, in the Scottish Government and, to a different degree, in the Northern Ireland Executive. Energy is of course transferred in Northern Ireland, but we are keen that they are still part of the Bill, so that they can benefit from some of the GB Energy possibilities, although it will be a different relationship because they are part of a different grid.
All my conversations with the Scottish Government and the Welsh Government have been about how we collaborate, not just on the formal process of consulting on the statement of priorities, but on how they can be part of helping GB Energy to set its priorities on an ongoing basis. On Monday, I met the Cabinet Secretary in the Scottish Government. We talked about, for example, the Scottish Government having a role in a much wider sense in the company to help with some of the priorities in Scotland.
There are a variety of ways. What is critical is that the devolved Administrations should absolutely be consulted, and we want that to be an open process, but we have also reset the relationships with the devolved Administrations in a way that means that this is not now a combative process. Across the UK, we have broadly the same outcomes in mind for clean power, with slightly different targets here and there, but we are all on the same journey. That allows us to align a lot of our priorities and to deliver for people all across the UK. I want that to be an open and collaborative approach. Consultation is the formal part, but it is not the limit of what we think can happen.
Stephen Flynn
Q
Michael Shanks: In the election, we committed that bills would come down. That figure was from independent analysts. We never said that bills would come down overnight; this is a process that will take time. GB Energy is part of delivering that. Without GB Energy, it would be harder to reach our targets by 2030 and to bring down bills for everyone. The reality with bills is that we remain far too wedded to fossil fuels; whether they come from the North sea or not, they are traded on the international market and we are subject to all the spikes, so reducing our dependence on unabated gas is critical. That is why I hope that all Members will vote to support GB Energy as part of the solution, including you.
Uma Kumaran
Q
“measures for ensuring the security of the supply of energy”.
For our constituents watching at home, which I choose to believe they are, what does the Bill actually mean for energy security? What does it mean for our constituents in the years ahead?
Michael Shanks: Our constituents and the wider population are watching every moment of this sitting, I have no doubt.
That is an important question. Security of supply is one of the critical questions that we have to answer. We have this challenge at the moment of how we bring down bills; how we move towards our climate targets for clean power, which is essential; and how we ensure security of supply. The only way—the only long-term solution—is for us to move to cheaper renewable energy at pace. Every single year that we are dependent on volatile fossil fuel markets, we open ourselves to the kind of exposure that people have still been paying the price for in the past few years. That cannot continue.
We will not be able to flick a switch overnight. We have come in after 14 years of chaos, frankly, in so much of government, and we are doing as much as we can to move at pace, but this is the journey that we need to be on. As I have said, 2030 is ambitious, but it is absolutely achievable. I was heartened when every single one of our witnesses today confirmed that although this is an ambitious programme, they see GB Energy as a critical part—not a silver bullet; of course it is not, and we never said that it is—in moving us toward energy security, cheaper bills and the climate leadership that the public want.
Pippa Heylings
Q
Michael Shanks: There are two separate things here: the objects in the Bill, which are around the restrictions placed on Great British Energy, and the five key functions, which are outlined in the founding statement. I was referring to the five key functions, one of which is the local power plan, which is how we think we will deliver a lot more community-owned energy.
The important thing about the Bill is that we do not want inadvertently to create a list of things that we think are good to have—I do not disagree with you at all about the importance of that—but that actually end up restricting it in ways that we do not expect. There is that danger with Bills like this; it was the same with Great British Nuclear and the UK Infrastructure Bank, where they have a clear, focused remit. There is nothing in the objects that prevents community energy projects—in fact, they are intrinsic to several of them—but we think that adding more and more detail, including the amendment that you propose, is not the right way to go. But it is clear in the founding statement, in the evidence from Juergen Maier and in numerous answers from the Secretary of State and me that this is something to which we are absolutely committed.
Torcuil Crichton
Q
Michael Shanks: That is really important. There are two strands to this. The capacity building point, to which you allude, is critical. A lot of communities absolutely have the possibility, the option and the potential for some of these projects, but just do not have the capacity to deliver them. We see that as a critical role that GB Energy could have, as a sort of one-stop shop of experts to provide that support, help with the essential pre-planning work and help to navigate the connections issues.
The second point around connections is really important, and it is something I am focusing a lot of time on within my wider remit as Minister: how do we clear the connections queue, while also prioritising the projects that we want to get connected much faster? Some of that will require us simply to build more network infrastructure to alleviate the pressures; some of it is building on the work that the previous Government did around prioritising the queue.
There are difficult trade-offs. Far be it from me to give credit to the former Minister again, but there are trade-offs because it is important for us not to say that one project is more valuable than the other. There might be, for example, mechanisms around saying that one is more likely to be connected faster, or is further through its delivery phase and should therefore get priority over something else. There are also a lot of projects still in the queue that just should not be there at all, because they are nowhere near ready to be delivered. It is important that we work on both those things, but GB Energy can be a real catalyst for communities to unleash the potential that they have. I am really excited about the opportunities that are there.
In closing, may I thank Committee members for their forbearance today? Can I also say that it is the first time since 2010 that a Minister has given evidence in a Bill Committee? I am glad that this Labour Government have brought back the practice of Government Ministers being responsible to Parliament and answering these questions. I look forward to doing more of that in future.
Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Anna Turley.)
Great British Energy Bill (Third sitting)
Thursday 10th October 2024
(2 weeks, 4 days ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Great British Energy Bill 2024-26 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 10 October 2024 - (10 Oct 2024)
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 5 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 12 / Noes: 3 - Question accordingly agreed to.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 4 / Noes: 12 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Chair
Good morning. I have some reminders for the Committee. Please set your electronic devices to silent. No food or drink is permitted during sittings, apart from the water provided, still or fizzy. Hansard colleagues will be grateful if Members could email their speaking notes, or alternatively pass their paper notes to the Hansard colleague in the room, to my left.
We now begin line-by-line consideration of the Bill. The selection list for today’s sittings is available in the room and shows how the selected amendments have been grouped for debate. Amendments grouped together are generally on the same or similar issues. Decisions on each amendment are taken when we come to the clause to which the amendment relates. Decisions on new clauses will be taken once we have completed consideration of the Bill’s existing clauses—saved by the bell, maybe.
I remind the Committee that the Member who has put their name to the lead amendment in a group of amendments is called to speak first. In the case of a debate on clause stand part, I will normally call the Minister first to introduce the clause. Members who wish to speak in any debate should indicate to me that they wish to do so. At the end of a debate, I shall call the Member who moved the lead amendment, or the Minister in the case of a clause stand part debate, to speak again in conclusion.
Before Members who move an amendment or new clause sit down, they will need to indicate whether they wish to withdraw the amendment or to seek a decision. If any Member wishes to press a grouped amendment to a vote once we have disposed of the lead amendment, they should indicate that in the course of their speech on the group.
Clause 1
Great British Energy
Pippa Heylings (South Cambridgeshire) (LD)
I beg to move amendment 8, in clause 1, page 1, line 3, at end insert—
“within 6 months of the day on which this Act is passed.”
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Clause stand part.
New clause 1—Energy efficiency reporting—
“(1) Within two years of the date of Royal Assent to this Act and every 12 months thereafter, Great British Energy must report to Parliament on its progress towards the object of improvements in energy efficiency set out in Clause 3(2)(c).
(2) The report mentioned in subsection (1) must include—
(a) the means by which energy efficiencies are being made;
(b) an assessment over time of the energy efficiencies made; and
(c) the projected impact on consumer energy bills.”
Pippa Heylings
Thank you, Chair, and all Committee members. I apologise for being a moment late. My hon. Friend the Member for Bath will be slightly late too, but will be in Committee.
As we heard in the oral evidence, we need a lot of reassurance before we can be supportive of the scope of the Bill, because it is so wide-ranging. We understand that flexibility is needed, but so much comes down to the strategic priorities and the business case. As the Bill stands, there is no deadline for the production of the critical delimiting document in which the Secretary of State will state the strategic priorities to reassure businesses, communities, bill payers and Committee members that Great British Energy, within its broad and wide-ranging objects, will focus on the innovative and on what is not duplicating or perverting the market and is not uncompetitive, to ensure a fair playing field and that communities have a say and a part to play in the generation of energy, and receive the benefits as well.
All that will come out in the Secretary of State’s strategic priorities statement. I therefore propose some level of certainty for everyone—business in particular—by putting in a deadline for the publication of the statement, which we suggest should be six months.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Michael Shanks)
Good morning, everyone. It is a pleasure to be back in Committee. I will begin by addressing amendment 8, tabled by the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire, before moving on to why clause 1 should stand part of the Bill.
The amendment seeks to specify the time within which Great British Energy will set out its priorities. For reasons I shall set out, we will not support it. First, though, it is important to say that the Government have already moved at pace on a range of energy-related matters, but particularly on Great British Energy. We have shown very quickly, in not quite yet 100 days in office, that we are moving forward to set up Great British Energy, and there will be no further delays in doing so. It is in our interests—indeed, as the hon. Member rightly said, it is in all our interests—that we move quickly on setting it up.
We have said clearly that we want Great British Energy to deliver a publicly owned, operationally independent energy company, and we are here today, within 100 days of Labour forming a Government, to make that happen. That work will continue. With the progress we have already made, and with a commitment that we want to quickly get Great British Energy delivering what we are setting it up to deliver—it is not at all in our interests to drag our feet—there is really no need for a specific timeline. I therefore hope that the hon. Member will not press her amendment to a vote.
Clause 1 allows the Secretary of State to designate a company as Great British Energy. Legislation often provides for a company that is set up under the Companies Act 2006 to be designated for certain statutory purposes, especially when substantial amounts of public money are involved, or where the company is being asked to fulfil a particularly important role. A recent example from the previous Government is the legislation on the UK Infrastructure Bank, which includes a similar provision.
Clause 1 simply sets out in detail the processes and arrangements to allow the Secretary of State to designate a company as Great British Energy. Perhaps most importantly, the clause allows Great British Energy to be founded as a publicly owned company, which gets to the heart of what this Government are committed to doing: giving the public a stake in Great British Energy. The clause protects the principle of public ownership by making explicit that the company would terminate if it ceased to be wholly owned by the Crown. I therefore commend clause 1 to the Committee.
Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)
I rise to speak briefly to new clause 1, which is grouped with amendment 8 and clause 1. It is very straightforward. It will be for Government Members to consider whether it is appropriate for the House of Commons to be in full knowledge and understanding of what the Government seek to do on energy efficiency. They must also consider whether the steps that the Government take in that regard should be reported to this House to ensure that we are fully abreast of the progress that the Government hope to make and how that meets the promises that they as individuals made to their constituents prior to the election. We as parliamentarians can collectively hold the Government to account on those promises and ambitions.
In discussions on further amendments, we will talk in more detail about the promises that were made, and hopefully the Government might be minded to agree to include some of those promises in the Bill. For now, though, I think it worth while for Members to consider the role that this Parliament plays in scrutinising this Government in a constructive fashion.
Pippa Heylings
No one can deny that, as the Minister said, we have seen huge progress coming through immediately, and commitment from the Government. I thought we would have heard from the oral evidence that certainty is critical, and therefore that giving a deadline and a timeframe in which people and businesses could expect to see the statement would be good reassurance. As the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South indicated, it would also be good to have some kind of revision. I hear from the Minister that the Government will not accept the amendment, so I will not press it to a vote, but it should be considered.
Michael Shanks
On the hon. Lady’s point, I reiterate our absolute commitment to move faster—frankly, far faster than in six months—to deliver the statement of strategic priorities. We will talk about that later in relation to further amendments.
On the point from the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South, we do not think the theme of the new clause is particularly important in this part of the Bill. It is important, of course, that the aim of Great British Energy is to be part of what will deliver cheaper bills for all, and efficiency, but it is only part of the story. Of course, in the election campaign we made it clear that across Government—yes, through Great British Energy, but also through a series of other measures, including our reforms to planning and including a lot of areas on which I am working closely with his colleagues in the Scottish Government to expedite progress—we will deliver cheaper bills.
The right hon. Gentleman must acknowledge, despite his not supporting Great British Energy so far—I hope that he and his colleagues will change their minds when the Bill comes back—that on this point it is in fact an important vehicle. [Interruption.] He looks as if he does not agree with what I said. He did not vote for the Bill on Second Reading, so I took it from that that he did not support it. It is important that he recognises that Great British Energy has a really important part to play in delivering what I have set out. His colleagues in the Scottish Government certainly think so, which is why we have been working so closely together on the matter.
Stephen Flynn
I am sure that the Minister, as an esteemed and well-versed parliamentarian, will understand that the voting system in this House means that should a Member choose not to vote in favour of something, that does not mean that they are against it, as he is outlining. I would hate for him to inadvertently suggest to the public that something is the case when it is not the case. As he knows, I of course welcome the set-up of GB Energy, but what I want to see is the scrutiny that the new clause would obviously provide.
Michael Shanks
I am delighted to hear the right hon. Gentleman’s wholehearted support for Great British Energy. That is fantastic. I did not know that, so that is wonderful, and I thank him for that great support. It has really cheered my whole day, in fact, that I now have his support. Things can only get better, as we say.
On the right hon. Gentleman’s specific point about efficiency measures, we are already taking a number of steps on that matter in other areas. For example, our warm homes plan will transform homes across the country, making energy in individual homes cleaner and cheaper to run. We announced a local grants programme to support that. Of course, that does not apply in Scotland, where such work is devolved. I think the Scottish Government could probably do more in this policy area. The Scottish Government have made significant budget cuts to projects—£133 million was taken out of energy efficiency measures in 2022 and 2023—so I think work could be done across the board on the matter.
On the point about updating Parliament, it is really important that we are talking about a publicly owned energy company. It will be independent of Government, but of course it will be responsible to Parliament in the way that any other independent companies wholly owned by the Secretary of State are. A copy of the strategic priorities will be laid before Parliament. Any directions given to Great British Energy by the Secretary of State will be laid before Parliament. Of course, there are already several other mechanisms that the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South, as an extremely well-versed parliamentarian—far more so than I am—knows he can avail himself of.
Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)
In respect of the point that the Minister has just made, and also the point that he made to the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire, who represents the Liberal Democrats, he said that the strategic priorities would be laid before Parliament. Does he have a timescale for that? He said it would be far quicker than six months, so are we talking about before Christmas? Are we talking about before the November recess? Does he have in mind a date when the strategic priorities may be laid before Parliament?
Michael Shanks
If the hon. Gentleman is proposing that the Bill will be through Parliament by Christmas, that would be great—we could move forward. Of course, we need the Bill to have Royal Assent before we can move forward. I welcome his co-operation on making sure that it has a swift passage through the House of Lords and the Commons. We will move as quickly as possible. It is in no one’s interest, let alone that of a Government who are moving as quickly as possible to deliver this, for it to be delayed any further.
Finally, the requirement in new clause 1, tabled by the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South, to report to Parliament on energy efficiency measures is unnecessary because there are already many mechanisms for that. We have been consistently clear that Great British Energy will be operationally independent. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will therefore not press his new clause to a vote.
Pippa Heylings
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 2
Crown status
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Michael Shanks
We are making great progress—this will be a good day. Clause 2 is straightforward. It ensures that Great British Energy will serve the public as an independent company and operate in the same way as any other UK company, that it will not have any special status, immunity or privilege normally associated with the Crown, and that its property will not be seen as property of the Crown. It will be subject to exactly the same legal requirements as all other companies. That is in line with the vision we had for Great British Energy from the beginning: that it should be operationally independent and an agile market player. We will ensure that it remains that way.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 2 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 3
Objects
Pippa Heylings
I beg to move amendment 2, in clause 3, page 2, line 18, at end insert—
“(e) measures to increase low carbon and renewable energy schemes owned, or part owned, by community organisations.”
This amendment includes community energy schemes in the objects that the Great British Energy company will be restricted to facilitating, encouraging and participating in.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 9, in clause 5, page 3, line 8, at end insert—
“(1A) A statement under this section must include as a strategic priority, consistent with Great British Energy’s objects under section 3, measures to be taken to ensure that local communities benefit directly from low carbon and renewable energy projects operating within their area.”
This amendment would require the Secretary of State to set a strategic priority for measures to be taken to ensure local communities benefit from low and renewable energy projects operating in their area.
Pippa Heylings
The objects of Great British Energy need to be wide-ranging and flexible so that it can be innovative and pivot where necessary. But one issue, which the Liberal Democrats also raised during the oral evidence sessions, is community energy: that which is owned, managed and generated by, and brings benefits directly to, the community. We propose this amendment for the Government’s serious consideration because the founding statement for Great British Energy says that local communities will derive benefits. That is not just in the five functions but part of the purpose of Great British Energy. Juergen Maier says in his foreword to the founding statement that Great British Energy will actively co-invest and support communities to generate energy. That is fundamental. As most of the rest of the provision is for large-scale clean energy projects, it is critical to include the amendment in the objects, given that communities are included in the five functions in the foundational statement.
Olivia Blake (Sheffield Hallam) (Lab)
I thank the hon. Lady for her opening remarks on the amendment. Is there anything in the Bill that would preclude the kind of support for community energy projects that we have discussed in Committee so far?
Pippa Heylings
The debate so far has all been about the ability to delimit what limits Great British Energy, but that allows for everything else that has not been mentioned. However, it is critical to reassure everybody that Great British Energy is about both large-scale clean energy projects and community projects. I do not think the amendment would change or limit Great British Energy any further; it would add to the understanding of the objects. I do not think it would in any way pervert the flexibility in the wide-ranging objects; it would bring the necessary emphasis and balance between large-scale and community energy projects.
Catherine Fookes (Monmouthshire) (Lab)
I rise to speak to amendment 2, tabled by the hon. Member for Bath, which seeks to include community energy in the objects of the Bill. The amendment has gathered support from across the House. I find it encouraging that so many hon. Members understand the important role that community energy schemes play in our energy sector and our mission to make Britain a clean energy superpower.
Community energy schemes currently generate 0.5% of the UK’s electricity. However, studies by the Environmental Audit Committee show that they could grow twentyfold in the next 10 years. They not only power many homes but reduce our dependence on energy imports and support the development of critical local infrastructure, and of course they create local jobs. It is clear to me that community energy schemes play a key part in tackling climate change. I have seen at first hand in my constituency of Monmouthshire great schemes such as the community solar project at Bridges community centre, which saves the centre money, which can then be reinvested in the community.
Further afield, in Bangor Aberconwy, we have Ynni Ogwen, which does fantastic work to produce electrical energy from hydro power using the Ogwen river. Again, the profits are used to fund community and environmental projects in the community. My commitment to community energy is clear, as is the Government’s. We are inviting communities to come forward with projects and to work with local leaders and devolved Governments to ensure that local people benefit from energy production.
Although the amendment is well intended, it is not necessary. The Government and the chair of GB Energy himself made it clear at the evidence session on Tuesday that community energy will be a “core part” of GB Energy.
Andrew Pakes (Peterborough) (Lab)
I want to join in the conversation about community energy, which I know is very important to the county that the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire and I share. Lots of great initiatives are going on there. Having read the amendments and thought about them this morning, I am deeply encouraged by the comments that the Minister and Juergen Maier made in our session earlier in the week.
I think I am the only Co-operative MP here—[Interruption.] I can see my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar indicating that she is one, too. As someone who has worked in the co-operative energy sector for much of my adult life, this is the first time in many years that I have seen a Government genuinely committed to community energy and working with the mutual sector to deliver that. I am proud of the work that the Co-operative party and the Labour party have done to bring forward GB Energy and work with the co-op sector.
In recent weeks, as we have prepared for the Bill, I have met Central Co-op, Midcounties Co-op, Unity, Greater Manchester Community Renewables, and a range of agencies that are fully behind the Bill because they see the power of it. The scale of the Government’s ambition is clear. The Secretary of State himself has said that the local power plan will deliver the biggest expansion of community energy in history. It would also be remiss of us to consider the amendment without acknowledging the local power plan, which is part of GB Energy’s founding statement, which includes a clear commitment from the chair, Juergen Maier:
“We will be investing in community-owned energy generation, reducing the pressures on the transmission grid while giving local people a stake in their transition to net zero.”
The local power plan is also listed in GB Energy’s three initial priorities.
Although I sympathise with, and support and wish to work with, the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire on community energy in Cambridgeshire in the localities that we operate in—it is really important that we keep a focus on that—this is a Bill that will transform our energy. The co-op movement is behind it and communities are behind it. It is important that we drive the Bill forward, so that it enables the local power plan, rather than—as it is almost the festive season—treating it like a Christmas tree, which is what I worry some legislation can become like. There are so many baubles that we could put on this legislation, when we should let the majesty of the tree speak for itself. We should get on and pass it, by Christmas or in six months or however long it takes. Community energy is coming, and we do not need an amendment to tell us it is on its way.
Uma Kumaran (Stratford and Bow) (Lab)
It is really good to see this cross-party support for community energy. I am sure all Members here today can speak to brilliant innovations in their constituencies. I have one in my constituency of Stratford and Bow, Community Energy Newham: its vision, very much like that of the Government, is to provide clean, affordable energy to homes and public buildings across the borough of Newham.
As we heard extensively on Second Reading, GB Energy will be owned by and for the British people, to help to promote energy independence, as well as to maintain Britain’s standing as a global leader. I echo the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouthshire. The Bill has already baked in the fact that community energy will be possible. We heard extensively from our witnesses that if the Bill does not give GB Energy the ability to innovate and advance, or to be flexible, there may be constraints in the years ahead. That is why we do not need the amendment.
Community Energy Newham is looking to provide our local library with a cleaner source of energy. As I said, many Members have exciting projects in their constituencies. That is why it is so important to maintain this cross-party support for the Bill and get it through as quickly as possible, so that not only our constituents but the whole country can benefit from Great British Energy.
Torcuil Crichton (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Lab)
I rise to reinforce not just the evidence that we heard from the Minister and Juergen Maier about the commitment to community energy, but the evidence we heard from private companies about foreign Governments that are willing to allow communities and municipalities to take a share in community energy.
None of what is in the Bill or what GB Energy proposes will happen without communities being involved. Communities will have to be involved at every stage —in generation, in transmission and in the purchase of the energy—otherwise we will find ourselves fighting communities every step of the way. It is vital that communities are involved. They are not just knocking at the door; they are taking over.
My constituency, Na h-Eileanan an Iar, has the largest number of community-owned windfarms in the UK. They serve as a template for what could happen across the rest of Scotland and Britain if communities are engaged and take on the challenge of producing their own power.
I was delighted with what the Minister said in the evidence session on Tuesday: GB Energy will be there to enable and help communities to get on the grid, get over the planning obstacles and the legal and financial obstacles that are sometimes in their paths. I think we should allow GB Energy to be set up and to get on with its business, and to enable communities to be engaged and involved not just in the production of energy, but in earning and reaping some of the profit that we will see from the wealth of wind.
Josh MacAlister (Whitehaven and Workington) (Lab)
The witnesses we heard from on Tuesday demonstrated a near-enough consensus that the Bill provides the chair, the board and the executive of GB Energy with the necessary flexibility to make sensible decisions, which include—and as has been backed by the Government and the current chair—the ability to back projects such as community energy. All of us should take reassurance from that.
There is a bigger point of principle on the amendment. We as Members should have the humility to recognise where the limitations of our own expertise reside. We do not want MPs setting the details—dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s—of how GB Energy should operate. The whole purpose of this legislation is to set up an autonomous, dynamic and fast-moving company, wholly focused on the 2030 mission and the Government’s wider aims and objectives for the net zero, energy transition and energy security agendas. We want to provide GB Energy with the full flexibility and freedoms to enable it to do that, and we heard that point from witnesses.
My constituency of Whitehaven and Workington demonstrates the full range of opportunities that GB Energy could support, whether in the earlier stages of research and development of projects, or by linking with nuclear—not just decommissioning but hopefully new nuclear energy. We were home to one of the first offshore wind farms at Robin Rigg, which is an RWE wind farm. That will come to the end of its life, and there are big questions about its future. All the opportunities of west Cumbria demonstrate that we need GB Energy to have full scope and freedom. It should not be for Members of this House to set that scope in detail. The Bill, backed by the witnesses and with the wisdom of the Government, is set up with that intention.
Michael Shanks
Amendments 2 and 9 seek to add provisions on community energy to the Bill. As I have said in a number of answers in Parliament and in our session on Tuesday, support for community energy is something that I absolutely share, and it is clearly shared by a number of hon. Members across the House. It will be an integral part not just of Great British Energy, but of the Government’s entire energy strategy. That is why the local power plan is a key part of Great British Energy’s delivery model, and it goes broader than GB Energy, to every other part of Government policy on energy.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar pointed out, it is essential that communities are involved. It is not a nice-to-have; it is critical. If we are to build the infrastructure we will need in future, we want communities across the country to reap the rewards. A key part of that is community-driven projects and community-owned projects.
Andrew Bowie
Last year, almost to the day, we launched the £10 million fund for community energy projects, building on the success of previous community funds, to be delivered through local energy hubs. How does the Minister envisage Great British Energy working with those local hubs to deliver those community projects that we announced funding for last year?
Michael Shanks
That is a really helpful point. The community energy hubs that already exist are certainly something that we want to build on. The £10 million commitment is welcome. We have committed more than £1 billion to the local power plan over this Parliament, but we are building on what is already there, such as the local hubs. In Scotland, there is the community and renewable energy scheme, where we are already working with the Scottish Government to look at how we can jointly fund the project. It is really important that we work to build on what is already there.
The Government will not be supporting amendments 2 or 9 today. Amendment 2 seeks to insert an additional object to clause 3 specifically about community energy. As a few hon. Members have said, the purpose of the Bill is to set up the confines of Great British Energy as a company in as little detail as possible. We are not seeking to fill the Bill with every possible mechanism the company could use or every possible priority it could have. We are clear that we are setting up the minimum necessary provisions for Great British Energy to function.
My hon. Friend the Member for Whitehaven and Workington made the really important point earlier that we are not seeking to set in train, for however long GB Energy will deliver projects, our objectives right now, in 2024. We want to give it the most minimal possible scope, so that it can go forward in an agile way and move into areas that, at the moment, we may not think are critical. Community energy will change over time—it already has changed with regard to the models we are using.
There is nothing in the Bill that excludes communities at all. The production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy extends to large-scale offshore programmes, but I do not think we should discount communities’ involvement in those. There are some really good models around the world. In Denmark, 20% is now expected for community ownership, so there are models of large-scale projects as well, although as the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire rightly said, much smaller-scale generation projects that directly benefit local communities should sit alongside that.
Amendment 9 would require the Secretary of State to specifically set, as a strategic priority, measures to ensure that local communities benefit from low and renewable energy projects operating in their area. As we will discuss later, the Secretary of State will outline Great British Energy’s strategic priorities to ensure that it remains aligned with Government policy on energy more generally. The first statement, which we will make as soon as possible after Royal Assent—before Christmas, as was said earlier—will focus on driving clean energy deployment, creating jobs, boosting our energy independence and, crucially, generating benefits for UK taxpayers.
We have been clear that that process—I will say more about this later—will include consultation with Ministers in the devolved Administrations. We are already working on community energy with the devolved Administrations in Wales and Scotland, in particular, which are doing great work on it.
Clause 3 sets out the parameters for Great British Energy to carry out the five key functions that we outlined in the plan for it, one of which is to deliver the Government’s local power plan. We are very clear that Great British Energy’s role in delivering the local power plan will be to support and champion local community groups. In my evidence on Tuesday, I built on the comments of a number of our witnesses and said that there are two strands to our proposal. GB Energy will provide some of the funding, but it will also have a critical role where communities can access funding but lack capacity. I am thinking in particular about rural communities and local authorities across the country that previously had in-house energy expertise but are no longer in a position to lead on some of these projects.
There are great municipal schemes across Europe, and we would like to see some of them in this country. That will require GB Energy to provide funding and, crucially, capacity building.
Torcuil Crichton
I am pleased to hear that the Minister has such enthusiasm for municipal and community schemes. There are examples in my constituency of communities that have come together. There are three community-owned estates on the west side of Lewis with a plan for nine turbines generating 43 MW. That could bring in £4 million into that community, but it needs need pump-priming and help to get it there. Similarly, onshore windfarm schemes have been proposed and are in planning, with the offer for municipal and arm’s length companies of local authorities to take shares of up to 20%, as the Minister said. That is the kind of thing that GB Energy could do if we just get through this Bill.
Michael Shanks
I take my hon. Friend’s point in the spirit in which it was intended and not as an attempt to rush me through the rest of these proceedings so we can get the Bill up and running, but we will move at pace. Every time he speaks, he is very good at reminding me that I need to visit those projects in Lewis with him at some point. He is absolutely right that it is important that we give communities, in whatever form—local government, local island communities, villages or towns —the ability to come together with the capacity to deliver on their energy potential.
I fundamentally believe that the Bill is at the heart of what the Government desire to do on the local power plan and community ownership more generally. We are absolutely committed to community energy, including through things such as what the Co-operative party has put forward. There is nothing in the Bill that prevents that from happening. For those reasons, I hope that the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire will withdraw her amendment.
Pippa Heylings
It is wonderful to hear hon. Members say how supportive they are of community energy and give examples from their local areas. In Cambridgeshire, the expertise is still there—it is absolutely amazing. We have community energy projects, including wind energy, and a whole village has an off-grid heat network, which is a national case in point.
I ask the Minister once again to take into account the cross-party support for the amendment. It is not a bauble, nor is it about crossing t’s and dotting i’s; it is about public ownership models. At the moment there is real concern, because although we talk about the great things happening, in the latest meetings we have held with advocates of community energy, we have been told that it is in crisis. Although GB Energy is removing the barriers to large-scale clean energy projects, there are barriers to community energy, which is why we have so few new community energy projects, in contrast to the past. We need investment, but it is not just about the money and capacity. It is about the rights—the ownership model and the right not only to generate but to sell locally, with an equal cost to connect.
Torcuil Crichton
I take the hon. Member’s point about rights. Usually, land rights prevent communities from taking a stake in energy projects. Community-owned land, which we have plenty of in the Western Isles and across Scotland, is the key—land that the community has ownership of.
The other problem, which I am sure GB Energy should and will unlock, is access to the grid, to get community companies on to the grid; GB Energy and regulation from the Department should be crucial to achieving that.
Pippa Heylings
I thank the hon. Member for making that point about the cost for communities of connecting to the grid, which makes it completely unviable for them to do so. It is not about capacity; the communities know what they want to do and are ready to do it. Unfortunately, although there is a right to sell energy locally, the cost of connection makes it completely unviable.
Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
An additional problem is that small community energy projects cannot provide directly—cannot sell directly—to the consumer. That is one of the major problems. Therefore, the Government should really put their mind to it and accept our amendment, so that we can assure our communities that the Government are really serious about this issue. Does my hon. Friend agree?
Pippa Heylings
I very much agree. Indeed, I find it very hard not to agree with my hon. Friend, who tabled the amendment.
We are obviously waiting to see the local power plan. We hope that it contains detail not only about the benefits, as with the Scottish and Welsh examples, but about the ownership model empowering local communities to do this work.
Given the cross-party support for the amendment, I will not withdraw it.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Pippa Heylings
I beg to move amendment 10, clause 3, page 2, line 18, at end insert—
“(e) an emergency home insulation programme with targeted support for people on low incomes, and
(f) the expansion and development of renewable energy and technology.”
This amendment would set objects for Great British Energy of facilitating, encouraging and participating in an emergency home insulation programme with targeted support for people on low incomes, and the expansion and development of renewable energy and technology.
As I understand it, the Bill’s scope has changed, enabling us also to consider the customers in all of this and the benefits to customers from the creation of Great British Energy. For that reason, the issue of home insulation should be considered.
The need for Great British Energy and the demand for the energy that is being created is also generated by the amount of energy that leaks from cold, draughty homes. We are approaching winter now. In my constituency of South Cambridgeshire and, I am sure, in constituencies across the country, including those represented by Members of this Committee, a large number of people, many of them vulnerable, are in cold, damp homes. Although those people may be able, through their local authority, to have some renewable energy features and insulation added to their home, a proper emergency home insulation programme—not just for this winter but for the long term—is not being considered.
As we know from the Climate Change Committee, the calculation of the demand for energy generation changes when we look at the amount of energy lost through heating homes. We would need to generate less energy if we managed our home insulation programme. I therefore think that it is within scope to show not only the price of people’s bills but the standards under which they are living in their homes, and the amount of energy being lost without a home insulation programme. I know that the Government have their warm homes plan, which we will see in the spring, but we should consider home insulation within energy efficiency, given the importance of GB Energy to the consumer.
Olivia Blake
This is a really valuable discussion, even if the amendment does not make it into the Bill. In the last Parliament, I served on the Energy Bill Committee. Conservative Members will remember the hours and hours of debate—it felt like days, months, years—about wider energy policy, and unfortunately there was nothing on reducing home energy use through insulation. I pay tribute to the wonderful Alan Whitehead, who kept us all entertained as the shadow Minister on that Committee. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] He was a very good man and gave a lot to this subject in particular.
Although I understand why the amendment has been tabled, this discussion is related more to wider energy policy than to the setting up of GB Energy. I understand why it has come up and it is good that we are discussing it, because it is a matter not just of energy efficiency but of human health. Sir Michael Marmot published a paper this year, reiterating the very human cost of poor-quality housing and the fact that so many homes in the UK have an energy performance certificate under level C. That is why I am pleased that in the run-up to the election we were championing the warm homes plan. I very much look forward to that, and I think it will cover the concerns of the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire.
The Bill focuses not only on reducing emissions, but on reducing the use of energy within the objects. We have covered the issue with the words “energy efficiency” in clause 3(2)(c). I know that that sounds quite limited, but there is much more to energy efficiency than loss within our homes; it is also about loss of energy within the system, so it is right to have a broader framing of energy efficiency within the Bill.
Andrew Bowie
I will not detain the Committee long, but I want to express the Conservatives’ support for the Liberal Democrat amendment, primarily because of our concern about the impact of the removal of the winter fuel allowance from so many pensioners this winter, and the fact that the warm homes plan, as welcome as it is, will not be up and running until next spring, which leaves considerable concern over what might happen in and around this winter.
Those pensioners should be at the forefront of our mind as we look towards winter and as we are discussing an increase in the number of well-insulated homes in this country—on which, by the way, we had quite a good record when we were in government; we increased markedly the number of homes at EPC level C or above. For those reasons, we will support the amendment if it is pressed to a vote.
Torcuil Crichton
It is difficult to argue against home insulation, but I do not know whether we need legislation or an amendment to the Bill to achieve it, particularly when it is happening already in community-owned power companies such as Point and Sandwick Trust in my constituency. The company raises £1 million a year for its community, and distributed in the last 18 months £250,000 to people living in fuel poverty, to help with home insulation and heating costs. That is the template, the model and the example that GB Energy could help and sustain without need for the amendment.
Andrew Pakes
I share huge empathy with the sentiments behind the amendment, but I believe that the answer to home insulation sits not in the Great British Energy Bill, but in the wider clean power and clean energy mission. I find it quite rich for Opposition Members, who used to be in government, to talk about supporting an emergency home insulation programme when they decimated the apprenticeship programme that delivered the workforce that could actually insulate our homes.
Andrew Bowie
The record of the last Government was that we increased the number of homes that were insulated in this country to EPC C or above from 14% to more than 50% over our time in government. That is a record of which we can be proud. Can we do more? Absolutely—that is one of the reasons why we are actually backing the Liberal Democrat amendment—but I think that to castigate our record as somehow disgraceful, or to say that we did not deliver for the British people, is wrong. I ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw or rethink his remarks.
Andrew Pakes
I thank the hon. Gentleman for being kind to me in the first intervention that I have ever taken in this House, but I will stick to my point: that we could achieve so much more in this country. We would be having a fundamentally different conversation about insulation efficiency and renewable energy if we had not gone through the last 14 years, in which budgets were cut. There are young people in my constituency of Peterborough who could have contributed, by moving from blue-collar to green-collar jobs, if we had had a further education system that was functioning and could train them—if we had a home insulation system that had a workforce that could get out and deliver.
Whatever we say in any resolution, motion or primary legislation in this place will not be enacted unless we have a people plan that delivers for it. That is why delivering on this issue should come in a different piece of legislation, even though I have huge empathy with the sentiments expressed by the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire.
Perran Moon (Camborne and Redruth) (Lab)
Although I entirely agree with the importance of the warm homes plan, I am getting really concerned that we are losing focus. We are looking to create a Bill that allows the scope and flexibility to ensure—I am glad the Minister mentioned this earlier—that the UK taxpayer gets the best bang for their buck. As the expert witnesses consistently testified, one of the key benefits of the Bill is that it is not overly or unnecessarily prescriptive and allows the scope to develop the strategic priorities, referred to in clause 5, that focus on ensuring that we get this right. I look forward to speaking to the Minister in due course about those priorities. GB Energy will work alongside and in partnership with the private sector, but we must avoid trying to be too prescriptive in a specific Bill focused on this area.
Wera Hobhouse
The hon. Gentleman is a new Member of Parliament; I have been here a little longer. Those of us who have been here longer always want to ensure that something is in statute—in law—because we parliamentarians are always a little wary of leaving it to a further document that may or may not come. We would like to see some assurances in law to ensure that whatever has been promised will actually happen. Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern?
Perran Moon
I am absolutely delighted that the Government are already talking about the warm homes plan. We have a plan, and it is coming through; we have talked about it coming through in spring. Today we are talking about the Great British Energy Bill, and it is really important that we retain the focus on ensuring that the Bill has flexibility, so that we can see the strategic priorities delivering on GB Energy specifically.
Michael Shanks
The hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire has rightly and passionately outlined the scandal of people living in cold homes and poorly insulated homes. She is right that it is an absolute scandal.
Stephen Flynn
The Minister is being generous with his time, as always. It is a scandal that people are in cold homes. Why is he supportive of the Government taking away the winter fuel allowance?
Michael Shanks
The right hon. Gentleman is combining two different things there.
Michael Shanks
It is not within the scope of the Bill, but I am happy to answer the question. Whether or not there is a winter fuel payment, people are still living in homes that are poorly insulated, including in Scotland where the right hon. Gentleman’s colleagues have cut consistently, year after year, the budget that delivered insulation programmes in Scotland.
Michael Shanks
They cut more than £100 million last year to plug gaps in their own budget. If we are looking at energy efficiency, the right hon. Gentleman could look closer to home at what his own Government in Scotland are doing.
To return to the Bill, I want to address both paragraphs in the Liberal Democrats’ amendment 10. First, the new object proposed in paragraph (e) would mean that Great British Energy’s objects included facilitating and participating in emergency home insulation programmes. Several of my hon. Friends have pointed out that although those programmes are incredibly important—I will come in a moment on to what the UK Government are already doing on the issue—it is important to detach the Bill from every other part of our energy policy. Although I totally understand the perspective that says, “These issues are important. Let’s put them on the face of a Bill to say so,” it is really important to say that the Bill itself does matter. This is about setting up and delivering the Great British Energy company. It is not the answer to every single part of the energy system. There are places where we are already moving forward on home insulation programmes, such as the warm homes fund, and it would be more appropriate to talk about those matters in that connection.
That is not to downplay the importance of the issue. As a Government, we are committed to taking bold action. Within the first 100 days, my colleague the Minister for Energy Consumers, my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Miatta Fahnbulleh), has outlined the work that we will do on this. The warm homes plan that we have announced is the most ambitious such plan ever. It will be implemented from the spring, delivering cleaner, cheaper energy in the process and ensuring that people, particularly in those low-income households where fuel costs already account for a disproportionate amount of income, can spend less money on them because their home is insulated and warm. That is a right that everyone should have.
Harriet Cross (Gordon and Buchan) (Con)
Does the Minister appreciate that although in the run-up to the election it was assumed, or said, quite often that GB Energy would save households £300, that figure seems now to have been dropped? Is this not a mechanism to ensure that low-income households see some benefit from the Bill? They will not necessarily take the Government’s word for it that it may come later, when we have already seen announcements such as the figure of £300 being dropped.
Michael Shanks
We have not dropped any announcement on reducing bills, but GB Energy was not going to be the single thing that would deliver that; it was the Government’s whole energy strategy. It is important to say that. I said in my evidence to the Committee on Tuesday that GB Energy is an important part of delivering that, but it is not a silver bullet. It will not be the thing that deals with every single aspect of our energy policy. It is also about what we are doing, for example, around increasing the renewables auction to get more cheaper energy on to the grid. It is about what we are doing around planning, consenting and connections. All that work is related to bringing down bills in the long term.
The Conservative party—the party that was in government when all our constituents suffered some of the highest price spikes that we have ever experienced—has to recognise, as it did for many years until it moved away from this policy, that the only way to reduce our dependence on the volatile markets that have led to increases in bills is to move towards greener, cheaper energy in the long term. That is what GB Energy is about delivering, that is what will bring down bills in the long term, and that is what we continue to deliver through this Bill.
I turn to paragraph (f) of amendment 10, which I am afraid we cannot support today, partly because it says what is already in the Bill on expanding renewable energy and technology. The Bill itself facilitates exactly those points and defines clean energy as
“energy produced from sources other than fossil fuels.”
That existing object already enables Great British Energy to drive the deployment of clean energy, helping to boost our energy independence, create jobs and ensure that communities reap the benefit of home-grown energy. Therefore, as a whole, amendment 10 is unnecessary, as the Bill already enables all of those points in clause 3.
The words of the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire are heartfelt and have been genuinely heard; I hope she gets that sense from all my hon. Friends and me. Such initiatives are an important part, not of GB Energy in itself, but of the whole Government’s mission to make communities in their households much safer from the lack of insulation and cold homes from which they are suffering at the moment. For those reasons, we will not support the amendment, and I hope that the hon. Lady will not press it.
Pippa Heylings
I thank all hon. Members for their serious consideration of the amendment. The hon. Member for Sheffield Hallam said that it was important to consider the role that energy efficiency plays within overall demand. I agree that it is part of the wider policy, but I think it is also critical in the context of GB Energy, because there is room for interpretation of clause 3(2)(c), which is about energy efficiency, as in energy efficiency in the process of generating energy.
Michael Shanks
In summary, clause 3 is about restricting Great British Energy’s activities to those specifically listed in the Bill, around “facilitating, encouraging and participating” in clean energy projects, reducing greenhouse gas emissions, improving energy efficiency, and ensuring energy security in the long term. Clause 3 thus provides the framework for Great British Energy to carry out the five functions outlined in its founding statement.
I turn to the objects set out in clause 3. Clause 3(2)(a) will enable Great British Energy to facilitate, encourage and participate in clean energy projects. Clean energy is defined in the Bill as
“energy produced from sources other than fossil fuels”.
The object will enable Great British Energy to drive the deployment of clean energy, helping to boost our energy independence.
Clause 3(2)(b) will enable Great British Energy to facilitate, encourage or participate in projects that would contribute to the reduction of greenhouse gases from energy produced from fossil fuels. Building on some of the evidence we heard on Tuesday, I want to be very clear that that includes, for example, projects relating to carbon capture and storage, or blue hydrogen.
Clause 3(2)(c) will enable Great British Energy to deliver measures to improve energy efficiency. That could include, for example, supporting demand reduction through the local power plant.
Clause 3(2)(d) will enable Great British Energy to respond to any future energy crisis, and deliver measures to support the long-term security of supply. Great British Energy is part of a bold, long-term strategy to harness our nation’s clean energy potential, and ensure that we reduce our exposure to the volatile fossil fuel markets.
Through those objects, clause 3 provides the framework from which Great British Energy can carry out its five functions. Although the five functions are set out in the founding statement rather than in the Bill, it would be helpful to refer to them in the context of clause 3. First, Great British Energy will invest in and own energy projects. Secondly, Great British Energy will lead projects through their early development stages, to speed up delivery while capturing value for the British people. Thirdly, Great British Energy will deliver our local power plan, working with local authorities, combined authorities and communities to deliver the biggest expansion of community owned energy in British history. Fourthly, Great British Energy will work with industry to develop supply chains across the UK to boost energy independence, but also, crucially, to create good, well-paid, trade unionised jobs.
Andrew Bowie
On the point about supply chains, the sustainable industry rewards were being designed to come with the next auction round next year. How will GB Energy work alongside the existing frameworks to deliver those sustainable industry rewards, to ensure that we build up the domestic supply chain that everybody across the parties wants?
Michael Shanks
That is an important point. We will announce more about allocation round 7 in due course, and how our industrial work and British jobs will work together to create those supply chains. It is an important point about the broad nature of what we want to do: to give confidence to industry that a pipeline of projects will be coming long into the future—beyond 2030, actually, although that is our initial key target—so that it is worth investing in and building the factories and supply chains in the UK. Great British Energy will be part of that, but it will certainly not be the entirety of it. We are working with the national wealth fund and the UK Infrastructure Bank to deliver more of those projects in the UK.
The final function, which the shadow Minister will appreciate, is that Great British Energy will help advance the work of Great British Nuclear. We will say more in due course about exactly how those two organisations work together. Those five functions enable Great British Energy to deliver on its clear mission of driving forward clean energy deployment, boosting our energy independence, creating good jobs and ensuring that UK taxpayers, bill payers and communities reap the benefits of clean and secure home-grown energy.
Wera Hobhouse
Will the Minister confirm that he said that we might cross-reference the five functions in the Bill? In that way, people will be clear, for example, that community energy is cross-referenced in the Bill as one of the five functions. Did he say that earlier?
Michael Shanks
No, I did not say that. What I was saying was that the context of the objects in the Bill is given by the functions that we set out in the founding statement. It is clear that those founding principles of Great British Energy, which the Secretary of State announced in that founding statement along with the start-up chair, Juergen Maier, will be largely what drives the initial statement of priorities for the company.
The objects themselves are around creating restrictions on what Great British Energy can do. We have left them deliberately broad so that the company is able to move in and out of different spaces. I am not sure whether the hon. Lady was here earlier, but we said clearly that there is nothing in the Bill that precludes community energy at all. I have repeated a number of times our absolute commitment to that and to the local power plan.
We will turn to clause 5 in due course, but it is relevant to the point we are discussing. Great British Energy will, of course, be operationally independent—a model adopted by a number of different companies; it is important for it to have its own board of experts in their fields. However, the Secretary of State will be able to set the company’s strategic priorities, which we will debate later. That is to ensure that although Great British Energy is operationally independent, it is setting out the functions in its founding statement while remaining agile to the Government priorities of the day. Importantly, it is a vehicle for delivering the central points of Government policy, including community energy, energy efficiency and many of the other things we have talked about. I commend the clause to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 3 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 4
Financial assistance
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Michael Shanks
Great British Energy will be operationally independent, with the Secretary of State as the sole shareholder. To operate, Great British Energy clearly needs funding, and clause 4 will give the Secretary of State the power to provide financial assistance to Great British Energy. That is so that GB Energy can take action in line with its statutory objects set out in clause 3, including financing its investments, joint ventures and day-to-day running costs.
To be clear, our intention is that Great British Energy will become financially self-sufficient in the long term. Great British Energy will invest in projects and expect a return on investments, generating revenue and delivering profits that benefit the public. It will also create tens of thousands of good jobs. However, it is prudent to ensure that the Secretary of State has the power to provide further financial support if required. Just as private sector companies would rely on the financial strength of their corporate groups to raise funds, there could be a case for providing Great British Energy with further financial support for specific projects in the future. The clause will enable that.
I assure the Committee that any further financial assistance to Great British Energy provided by the Secretary of State will of course be subject to the usual governance and control principles applicable to public sector bodies, such as His Majesty’s Treasury’s “Managing Public Money”.
Finally, in the highly unlikely situation of Great British Energy facing financial difficulty, the powers set out in clause 4 would allow the Secretary of State to step in to help prevent any disruption to Great British Energy’s intended interventions. I commend the clause to the Committee.
Andrew Bowie
I am comforted that the Minister thinks it very unlikely that GB Energy will get into any financial difficulty. But let us look at state-owned energy companies around the world. Just last year, for example, EDF—a fantastic company investing a lot into the United Kingdom—had to be bailed out to the tune of about €20 billion. Although I am comforted by his assurance, I think we would like to see a little more evidence for that assertion before moving forward.
The Minister says that any financial assistance will be governed by the usual processes of being accountable to Parliament, and that the Secretary of State would be, should that be the case, but clause 4(3) states:
“Financial assistance under this section may be provided subject to any conditions the Secretary of State considers appropriate.”
Should it not be conditions that Parliament considers appropriate? Will the Minister expand more on what those conditions might be?
Michael Shanks
I am always willing to give the hon. Gentleman comfort, in this and many other things. On both those points, the Bill quite rightly says that it is subject to any particular requirements of the Secretary of State. That is about saying that, instead of giving money to a company without any requirements, requirements will of course be put on what that funding is for—a fairly standard thing that I think we would expect.
On the broader point about parliamentary scrutiny, there are of course a number of mechanisms through which Parliament can bring scrutiny to these decisions. As I have already said, it will be outlined that any additional funding that should be given to GB Energy in the future will be in the course of the normal processes of any financial transactions that the Government undertake.
I think this is important, though: the hon. Gentleman has used the EDF example on a number of occasions, but he does not often reference the other side of the equation —hugely successful state-owned companies around the world. The truth, in all this Bill, is that for the first time in more than 70 years we are delivering a publicly owned energy company in this country, in the same vision as many of the publicly owned energy companies that are hugely successful around the world and delivering huge returns to their taxpayers every single year.
We are starting off GB Energy on a much smaller scale —of course we are—but, in time, we see it as a vehicle for delivering some of the huge successes that those companies have, and delivering a huge return to the public. We believe that public ownership of infrastructure is a good thing, and we hope that we can convince hon. Members across the House that this is the right thing to take forward.
Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Andrew Bowie
I beg to move amendment 11, in clause 5, page 3, line 8, at end insert—
“(1A) The statement of strategic priorities under subsection (1) must include the reduction of household energy bills by £300 in real terms by 1 January 2030.”
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 12, in clause 6, page 3, line 38, at end insert—
“(1A)
(a) The Secretary of State must give a specific direction to Great British Energy that it must report to the Secretary of State on the progress made by Great British Energy towards the strategic priority of reducing household energy bills by £300 in real terms by 1 January 2030.
(b) A report under paragraph (a) must include a projection of how Great British Energy’s activities are likely to affect consumer energy bills over the following five years.
(c) A report under paragraph (a) must be made within two years of the date of Royal Assent to this Act and annually thereafter.
(d) The Secretary of State must lay a report made under paragraph (a) before Parliament.”
Amendment 24, in clause 5, page 3, line 8, at end insert—
“(1A) The statement of strategic priorities under subsection (1) must include a priority to reduce household energy bills by at least £300 in real terms.”
Andrew Bowie
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dr Huq, and a privilege to be back in another Committee Room debating a Bill on energy—we did not do enough of that last year.
Amendment 11 would provide a specific strategic priority for Great British Energy to reduce the average household energy bill by £300 in real terms by 1 January 2030. Amendment 12 would require an annual report to be laid before Parliament on how GB Energy activities are affecting household energy bills. The often repeated claim that the purpose of GB Energy was to save each bill payer £300 on their energy bill seems to be conspicuously absent from the legislation before us, which states that the objects of GB Energy are only to facilitate, encourage and participate in the production of energy, the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions, improvements in energy efficiency and measures for ensuring security of supply.
This morning, we checked the Labour party’s website. It still says:
“Great British Energy is part of Labour’s Green Prosperity Plan”,
which will
“cut bills by £300 on average and deliver real energy security.”
On 19 June, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said on Twitter:
“Great British Energy, a publicly owned energy company, will cut energy bills by up to £300.”
On 24 May, the now Prime Minister said on ITV’s “Good Morning Britain”:
“Well, we want to, as you rightly say, set up Great British Energy. That is a publicly funded, publicly owned company, which is owned by the taxpayer, making money for the taxpayer”,
and that it would reduce household bills by—he claims —£400. It is a little surprising that this has not made it into the legislation setting up Great British Energy, given that it was a prime reason for the delivery of this company in the first place.
Josh MacAlister
Can the hon. Member cite any legislation from the past 14 years that included a specific financial saving, to illustrate his point that it would be appropriate to put that in a piece of legislation? Does he not accept that his quote from the Labour party’s website includes the words “part of”—the point that the Government have made all along?
Andrew Bowie
The fact is that the Labour party has brought forward this legislation and is creating this company—a company that the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Labour candidates, now MPs across the country, claimed time and again through the election would cut bills by £300. It was one of the reasons why Labour is creating the company in the first place, so it is surprising that it did not want to put the £300 as a specific object in the Bill, given that it was so proud of the fact that this would deliver the savings it said it would.
Torcuil Crichton
I, too, have been checking online—with Full Fact, which discloses that the £300 figure that the shadow Minister raises is not based on Labour’s plans; it comes from a report from an energy think-tank Ember, and it is an estimate of what people would save. There was no Government commitment—there never was a Government commitment—to such a figure.
Andrew Bowie
That might be in Full Fact, but if the hon. Member goes to Channel 4’s “FactCheck”, he will see that it says:
“During the election campaign Labour suggested bills would be brought down around £300 a year”
through its “net zero energy plans”, including the creation of GB Energy. The Prime Minister said:
“Yes, I do. I stand by everything in our manifesto and one of the things I made clear in the election campaign is I wouldn’t make a single promise or commitment that I didn’t think we could deliver in government.”
So the question is this: will energy bills be cut by £300 by 2030 and, if so, why is that not in the legislation before us?
Andrew Pakes
The hon. Member sets great stock in saying what this Government might do. To give us context, can he tell us what his Government did? Did bills go up or down in his tenure as a Minister?
Andrew Bowie
While we were in government, we paid half of every single person’s energy bill in this country to get us through the energy crisis, which was created as a result—
Andrew Bowie
It was created as a result of the invasion of Ukraine by Vladimir Putin, as everybody in this room knows. I know that out there in the country, constituents would like clarification that that remains an express aim of GB Energy, especially the cutting of £300 from their energy bills and particularly for the pensioners out there who are having that exact amount removed from them by this Government, as one of their first acts having got into power.
The Secretary of State has reiterated that clean energy will deliver cheaper energy; it has been repeated in the House, on the campaign trail, in videos and in leaflets. I believe it is important to enshrine accountability to that ambition in this Bill, which will create the institution of Great British Energy. We must introduce a mechanism by which the Secretary of State and GB Energy are accountable to households.
Olivia Blake
Surely the shadow Minister agrees that Great British Energy will reduce the costs of energy, because the types of energy projects in which it will be investing will be of lower-cost energy production and we will be less reliant on foreign fuel markets, which have been very volatile for a range of reasons. I accept what he says about what he did as Minister in the last Parliament, but this Government, in our first piece of legislation, are acting to create a vehicle that will enable us to get much further.
We have had a very successful auction, compared with the absolute farce of an auction at the back end of the last Parliament, for clean energy projects that are cheaper and will hopefully deliver on a scale never seen before in this country. I am proud to stand here and say that I think the amendment is not necessary. It is playing quite cute with the rhetoric around this question; it should be withdrawn, because it is playing politics rather than tackling the substance of what the Bill is intended for, which is very serious, as we face a climate and nature emergency.
Andrew Bowie
I do not disagree entirely with the hon. Lady. I think we should be aiming to reduce the cost to taxpayers, and that investing in new cleaner technologies, including nuclear, will see energy bills fall in the long run—so why not have that as one of the objects of the company in the Bill? The Bill states that the objects of Great British Energy will be
“the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy…the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions from energy produced from 15 fossil fuels…improvements in energy efficiency, and…measures for ensuring the security of the supply of energy.”
There is not one mention of reducing consumers’ bills. Surely we want to enshrine that in the legislation, if that is indeed one of the aims of the creation of this company.
My amendment 12 would include the necessity to present
“a projection of how Great British Energy’s activities are likely to affect consumer energy bills over the following five years.”
Transparency and accountability should be key to the operation of GB Energy, particularly when the investments and activities that the organisation undertakes have a potential impact on household bills for every family in this country. Thank you for allowing me to speak to the amendment, Dr Huq; I do so to ensure that the Bill makes provision for GB Energy to be held accountable on its aim to reduce energy bills for households.
It is in the best interests of GB Energy and of the British public that the company have a clear directive to ensure, through investment in clean energy technology, that the cost of household energy is reduced. Labour MPs made clear the intention of GB Energy to reduce bills—indeed, they campaigned extensively on the £300 reduction—so I hope that they will support amendment 12, which would support them in achieving that goal, along with including provisions on accountability and transparency to the public on the overall impact of GB Energy’s investments on consumer bills.
Stephen Flynn
I rise to support amendment 24, which is broadly similar to the shadow Minister’s amendment 11. I am intrigued by the discussion that we have had, various aspects of which appeared to disagree with evidence we have heard.
First, the hon. Member for Sheffield Hallam, if I picked her up correctly, made great play of the fact that GB Energy will reduce costs. Yet just a couple of days ago, each and every one of us was in the room with the chair of GB Energy, who was very clear that reducing bills
“is not the scope of Great British Energy”.––[Official Report, Great British Energy Public Bill Committee, 8 October 2024; c. 6, Q5.]
We can all watch the footage online, and we can all read Hansard.
Secondly, the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar made the argument that the £300 promise was not actually a promise. Which is it? Will it or will it not reduce costs?
Olivia Blake
I think the right hon. Member is purposely misunderstanding my comments. It is obvious: is the cost of cheap, green energy lower or higher than the costs that we have seen in the oil, gas and coal markets? It is as simple as that. Is it cheaper? Yes, it is. Doing things like Great British Energy will help produce more cheaper, cleaner, greener energy.
Stephen Flynn
The hon. Lady misunderstands my point. I do not disagree with that; in fact, I would like to see the Government go further and separate the price of electricity from the price of gas as they promised. That is one of the reasons why the Tories allowed people’s energy costs to soar, irrespective of their narrative about extenuating circumstances far outwith all our control. The point that the hon. Member for Sheffield Hallam made, quite clearly, was that GB Energy would reduce costs. Juergen Maier, the chair, said that that was not the scope of GB Energy. Which is it? The two things cannot be true at exactly the same time. We cannot say that something is going to happen and then say that GB Energy is not going to do it.
The crux of all this is that the public have expectations that GB Energy will reduce their energy bills by £300. Government Members can argue that that was not the promise; if that was not the promise, they were very quiet about it when they let the public believe that during the election campaign. If the public believe that, the Government need to deliver on the commitment that they made, and they should learn a lesson. The Conservatives made promise after promise after promise, and they failed to deliver when it came to energy. [Interruption.] Does the Minister wish to intervene?
Michael Shanks
I am very happy to. The right hon. Member talks about promises in an election campaign. He may distance himself from some of the promises that his Holyrood colleagues make—at least at the moment, until he makes his move—but it is important to say that, time and again, his own party made promises in its 17 years in power. We have committed to lowering bills, and as I will outline in a minute, we will continue to commit to that. GB Energy is the vehicle for doing that. I am delighted that he has pledged support for it today. That, along with all the Government’s policies, is how we will reduce bills in the long term.
Perhaps the right hon. Member should take a bit of a lesson from us about promises in election campaigns and how to win them, which is not to promise to set up a publicly owned energy company in Scotland and still not have done so 15 years after it was announced. We are doing it now within 100 days.
Stephen Flynn
I admire the Minister’s attempt to compare GB Energy, as supposedly a producer and generator of energy, with an organisation that could have sold electricity—
Stephen Flynn
Of course it did not do anything, because the capital was not there to do that. If it had existed under the price shock that the Tories brought in for all of us, it would not have been able to function, in the same way that so many others in the private sector were not able to function. The Minister is trying to equate two things that are not comparable. When he rises to his feet, as he seems very keen to, perhaps he will confirm, first, when bills will fall by £300, and secondly—as he failed to do the other day—when they will come down at all.
Before the Minister interrupted so pleasantly, I was pointing out to Government Members that the Conservatives made promises on energy that they failed to deliver. The public have high expectations—so get on and deliver.
Michael Shanks
We will not support the amendments tabled by the shadow Minister or that of the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South, but it is important to say why. As several of my hon. Friends have made clear, putting specific figures into a Bill is not what any Parliament does, but it is important to set out the objects, purpose and vision of GB Energy, as it will play a crucial role in bringing down bills in the long term and preventing the price spikes that we and our constituents still face.
Andrew Bowie
The Minister is being generous with his time, and I appreciate that; he is a generous individual. If he will not commit to a £300 cut, why will he not stipulate that one of the objects of GB Energy is to reduce consumer bills? That is one of the arguments that Labour used in favour of its creation throughout the election, and indeed afterwards. Why will he not consider at least putting on the face of the Bill a commitment to reduce consumer bills?
Michael Shanks
For the reasons I have already outlined, that is implicit in the policy; it is why we are doing it. I think the shadow Minister agreed in response to one of my hon. Friends that this is a useful approach to reducing bills, and the push towards green energy is important.
Michael Shanks
The shadow Minister nods in support. I look forward to his support for the Bill as a vehicle for delivering it.
Michael Shanks
He stops short of that.
The shadow Minister spoke earlier about the rising bills caused by Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, as if somehow the UK had no vulnerabilities that particularly exposed us to that invasion. Of course it was an external factor, but it led to huge price spikes in this country, and we are still exposed to volatile fossil fuel markets. We are determined to push towards energy security through cleaner green energy. That is moving at pace—our recent renewables auction was the biggest we have ever had, with 131 projects—and Great British Energy will drive that forward.
Harriet Cross
We have already discussed the financial assistance in the Bill. It is therefore anticipated that there may be financial strain. Given that the objects in the Bill do not include reducing bills, what guarantee is there that reducing bills will be a priority if and when finances become tight?
Michael Shanks
On the financial point, the Bill is an enabling mechanism, like a number of other pieces of legislation, including the UK Infrastructure Bank Act 2023, which the hon. Lady’s party introduced in government to allow the Secretary of State to give additional funding to companies. We said throughout the election that we would reduce energy bills, and we stand by that, but we cannot flick a switch. The idea that some Members have put forward that somehow, after 14 years of chaos from the Conservative party, a Government can come in and, within 100 days, turn everything around overnight is simply and deliberately disingenuous. Conservative Members take no responsibility for the actions of the previous Government.
We are putting in place as quickly as possible the basis for delivering energy security in the long term and removing volatility from our energy market, so that we can deliver cheaper bills for everyone in the long term. We made no pledge during the election that we would do it in 100 days, a year or two years, because we know fine well that that commitment will take time. But it is the right journey for us to be on, and it is right that we have started by building the energy resilience we need in the system.
Stephen Flynn
I do not think that my Commons colleagues and I would suggest that the Government should have reduced energy bills within 100 days, but, my goodness, they have just gone up by 10%. The Minister says that it will not happen within a year or two years, so I would be keen, as would the public, to know broadly when he expects energy bills to come down. I do not say that from an angry position; I want the public to have a bit of clarity about his objectives.
Michael Shanks
It is an important point, and I take it in the spirit in which the right hon. Gentleman says he intends it, but nobody is in a position to say what will happen to bills on a particular date. They will start to come down as our exposure to more expensive forms of energy is reduced, but the price cap has already increased because we continue to be exposed to those international markets, and there are actions taken by the previous Government that will continue as we move into the winter. We are doing everything we can to turn that around as quickly as possible.
The right hon. Gentleman knows as well as anyone that at the next election we will absolutely be judged on this and on a whole series of commitments that we have made, as any party is judged on its commitments in elections. We stand by that. We are doing everything we possibly can to deliver the change that is necessary. It will bring down bills in the long term. It will be difficult— I am not suggesting that it will not—but it is a commitment that we have made and it is one that we will work towards.
Harriet Cross
Just for clarity, will the other changes that Labour is bringing in, such as ending North sea licences, increasing and extending the windfall tax and ending investment allowances, make us more or less secure in the meantime, before GB Energy is set up? Will they expose us more or less to the international market?
Michael Shanks
We are moving slightly off the Bill, but that is an important point; we have spoken about it before, and I am very happy to keep speaking about it. The difference is that, whether gas comes from the North sea or from international markets, it is traded on an international market. We pay the price whether it comes from the North sea or not. That is why the price spikes have been so important.
Michael Shanks
I fully suspect that in my time as Energy Minister, I will come back to the hon. Lady’s question. It is an important one, and I am very happy to discuss it.
Turning back to the amendments, we have been very clear that the creation of Great British Energy is about helping us to harness clean energy and reduce our reliance on volatile fossil fuels. But it is important—with the patience of the Chair—to outline the other things that we are doing, more broadly than Great British Energy and the Bill. It is important that Labour’s reforms dovetail with what Great British Energy is doing, particularly the review of market arrangements started by the previous Government. We will conclude that work.
We will continue to deliver the warm home discount, which provides a £150 annual rebate off energy bills for eligible low-income households. We are also looking at the burden placed on bills by standing charges, which still make up too much of so many people’s bills; the Minister for Energy Consumers, my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham, is looking at that now. We are working with Ofgem to look at how we can reduce that.
There is a series of measures that are all important and that all work towards the same goal. GB Energy is one of those, and it is important that we implement it as quickly as possible so that we can move forward with increasing our capacity for cheaper energy and reduce bills in the long term. For that reason, the amendments are not necessary.
Andrew Bowie
The Minister has our full support on the broad approach that he is taking on market frameworks, standing charges and working with Ofgem, given that we started that work when we were in government. However, a commitment to work towards reducing consumer bills, and specifically the £300 reduction that the Labour party promised during the election would result from the creation of Great British Energy, should be in the Bill. That is why our amendment is essential. I will press it to a vote.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Great British Energy Bill (Fourth sitting)
Thursday 10th October 2024
(2 weeks, 4 days ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Great British Energy Bill 2024-26 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 10 October 2024 - (10 Oct 2024)
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 9 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 11 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Chair
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I assume that by now everyone is an expert in Standing Committees and knows how procedure works, but for the record, although I am sure this has been explained already, amendments are grouped in debating order, not sequential order, so you may find that something will be voted on much later than it is debated, because it appears in the Bill later. If you are worried, ask; otherwise, assume that we shall vote on the right things in the right place at the right time. Although I do not know what I am doing, the Clerks most certainly do. If in any doubt about that or anything in the way of procedure— I notice that one or two new Members are in Committee —please do not hesitate to ask. I shall not know the answers, but the Clerks will.
Because it is so warm, anyone who wants to take their coat off is welcome to do so. [Interruption.] I am tempted to say, “Run around to keep warm,” but unfortunately here you cannot.
Clause 5
Strategic priorities and plans
Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)
That I beg to move amendment 13, in clause 5, page 3, line 8, at end insert—
“(1A) The statement of strategic priorities under subsection (1) must include ensuring that wholesale electricity prices must be lower in real terms on 1 July 2030 than the day on which this Act is passed.”
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 14, in clause 6, page 3, line 38, at end insert—
“(1A)
(a) The Secretary of State must give a specific direction to Great British Energy that it must report to the Secretary of State on the progress made by Great British Energy towards the strategic priority of reducing wholesale electricity prices in the United Kingdom.
(b) A report under paragraph (a) must include a projection of—
(i) how Great British Energy’s activities are likely to affect wholesale electricity prices in the United Kingdom, and
(ii) the likely effect of the projected wholesale electricity prices on consumer electricity bills over the following five years.
(c) A report under paragraph (a) must be made within two years of the date of Royal Assent to this Act and annually thereafter.
(d) The Secretary of State must lay a report made under paragraph (a) before Parliament.”
Amendment 19, in clause 6, page 3, line 38, at end insert—
“(1A)
(a) The Secretary of State must give a specific direction to Great British Energy that it must report to the Secretary of State within three months of each investment it makes on the impact that the relevant investment is projected to have on wholesale electricity prices over the following ten years.
(b) The Secretary of State must lay a report made under paragraph (a) before Parliament.”
Andrew Bowie
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. The amendment would bring to the Bill a concrete objective for Great British Energy to reduce the wholesale price of electricity. I am pleased to move this amendment, which will introduce a specific strategic priority to reduce wholesale electricity prices and to require that an annual report is produced on how Great British Energy’s activities are affecting wholesale energy prices and therefore consumer electricity bills.
Further to the discussion earlier about the impact of Great British Energy on bills, notable by its absence, sadly, is a purpose for GB Energy to reduce wholesale electricity prices. As we noted earlier, the Bill states that the objects of GB Energy are only to facilitate, encourage and participate in the production of energy, the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions, improvements to energy efficiency, and measures for ensuring the security of supply. It would be remiss of the Government not to include the ambition to reduce the wholesale price of electricity as a strategic priority of the company.
Why is reducing wholesale electricity prices important? Wholesale costs account for about 60% of a customer’s energy bill and are a major consideration in suppliers’ retail pricing decisions. In the two years since Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, we have seen the sizeable impact of the international energy crisis on bill payers in the United Kingdom. Tensions rising in the middle east could very much affect our domestic energy costs, so it is more significant than ever that we take into account the impact that Great British Energy could have on wholesale electricity prices to reduce consumer bills as much as possible.
It should be incumbent on Great British Energy, through its investments and its part and full ownership of projects, to drive down wholesale electricity prices to the benefit of UK bill payers and businesses. In winter 2022-23, the Conservative and Unionist Government paid half the country’s energy bills to protect households from the worst of the energy shocks triggered by that war in Ukraine. Energy bills, alongside the pressures of inflation, have been a consistent worry for all our constituents. We also have the highest energy costs for industry in Europe.
The Government have outlined that their plans to tackle future energy security, to reduce bills and to lower wholesale prices for electricity hinge on the creation of GB Energy. Therefore, it would be prudent to write into the Bill the strategic priority to reduce wholesale electricity prices. On Tuesday, we heard from the chair of GB Energy that
“Every megawatt and gigawatt of renewable energy that we put on the grid will help to bring bills and prices down.”––[Official Report, Great British Energy Public Bill Committee, 8 October 2024; c. 6, Q5.]
I agree. Therefore, it has been intimated that that is indeed a strategic priority for GB Energy, and the Bill ought to reflect that.
This group of amendments also introduces the requirement for the Secretary of State to give a specific direction to Great British Energy that it must report on its progress.
Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
I have an honest question. Since energy is sold in a daily, 10-minute or whatever market, and that market operates, how can the Government ensure that the market behaves in the way they want it to behave? Is that question useful? I want to understand what the hon. Gentleman’s amendment will actually do to guarantee the price, since British energy operates in a market.
Andrew Bowie
That is an important question. I think we all agree that the reason the United Kingdom was so exposed to the energy price shocks that the entire western world has experienced over the past two years was our overreliance on the highly volatile fossil fuel market. Building new technologies to drive us towards a cleaner future and lower bills is therefore important. Our exposure to the market to which the hon. Lady refers had an adverse impact here in the United Kingdom. Just as stating in the Bill that a reduction in bills is important, the reduction of wholesale electricity prices should also be a stated object in the Bill. If GB Energy is to do anything, alongside all its other strategic objects, surely it must be working towards a reduction in electricity prices. We would therefore like to see that on the face of the Bill.
Wera Hobhouse
The hon. Gentleman is being generous in giving way. Would that not be a clear state intervention in the market?
Andrew Bowie
I do not think so, but the creation of the company is a state intervention in the market. That is one reason we on the Conservative Benches disagree with the Bill. We think that we can drive up investment in renewables and new technologies in this country by allowing companies the freedom to invest and by creating the best environment for private investment in this country. That is what we did when we were in government. That is why we have the first to the fifth-largest offshore wind farms in the world, and that is why we cut emissions faster than any other country in the G7, at the same time as growing the economy. That is a record that I am very proud of, and I worry that this state intervention in the market will have a negative effect.
We are debating the creation of GB Energy and this Bill. As part of that, a reduction in electricity prices should be one of the strategic aims.
Perran Moon (Camborne and Redruth) (Lab)
The Conservative party in government—I do not know whether opinion has changed—had little regard for private businesses. On Tuesday, however, we clearly heard expert witnesses from private businesses consistently testify that one of the Bill’s key benefits is that it is not overly and unnecessarily prescriptive, so it allows the scope to develop the strategic priorities that focus on ensuring that we get this right. The amendment is completely unnecessary, because it is yet another example of being overly prescriptive, which is not what businesses asked for on Tuesday.
Andrew Bowie
I completely agree that we should not be overly prescriptive of business, but one of the strategic objectives in setting up this company should be to work towards a reduction in wholesale electricity prices. The Bill sets out everything else that the company will seek to do, so why not add that to the Bill as an objective for the company in the long run? I do not know why there would be any disagreement with including that objective in the Bill, given that we all agree that electricity prices and the cost of doing business are far too high in this country. Surely, therefore, GB Energy should be working towards that objective—hence I think the amendment is necessary and we have moved it today.
On the requirement on the Secretary of State to give a specific direction to GB Energy, we think that it should report its progress on the priority of reducing wholesale electricity costs to Parliament. Amendment 19 would also introduce the requirement for GB Energy to report to the Secretary of State within three months of every investment on the projected impact on wholesale energy prices over the next 10 years. It is essential that we in Parliament, Government and Great British Energy take a sufficiently long-term view of the decisions and investments that will impact wholesale electricity prices and, therefore, consumer bills and the cost to industry in the years and decades to come. Those are the reasons for our amendments.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Michael Shanks)
It is a pleasure, Sir Roger, to serve in this Committee under your—
The Chair
Order. In case hon. Members are not fully aware, ordinarily we would call any Member on either side of the Committee before calling the Minister. It is not the same procedure as on the Floor of the House, where we would normally call, in this case, the Opposition and then the Government Front Bench. That is why I paused slightly to see whether anybody wanted to intervene.
Michael Shanks
I will take the amendments in turn, starting with amendment 13, tabled by the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine. The creation of Great British Energy allows us to harness clean energy and have less reliance on volatile energy markets. I must resist the amendment for a number of reasons. Parts of the various amendments are linked, so I will deal with what they have in common.
First, a founding principle of Great British Energy is that it should be operationally independent. The Bill is clearly about making the minimum necessary provision to establish the company. Adding further unnecessary detail, as we have talked about with regard to various amendments today, risks restricting the company in carrying out its activities and going against our commitment to the British public. The hon. Gentleman will be familiar with this model of legislation, given his involvement with pieces of legislation such as on the UK Infrastructure Bank. We heard from a number of witnesses on Tuesday that they want the Bill to be broad enough to allow Great British Energy to move into different opportunities as they arise but, clearly, the focus we have set out for it concerns the long-term energy security of the country and bringing down bills.
Secondly, the Secretary of State has the power—we will come on to this, I have no doubt—to set the strategic priorities. It is right that the statement of strategic priorities sets out what Great British Energy’s objectives are. As the hon. Gentleman knows, because he and other hon. Members have referred to it at various points, we live in an increasingly unstable world. The last few years have brought that to the front of our consciousness. Our energy security and the protection we need to give to bill payers mean that we need to speed up the transition from fossil fuels to home-grown clean energy. We are unwavering in our commitment to that as a long-term project and a cornerstone of our sustainable plan to safeguard bill payers for good.
In speaking to these amendments, the hon. Gentleman referred to our witnesses on Tuesday and the fact that putting more green energy on the grid reduces overall costs. I agree with him on that, but it is therefore important to recognise that Great British Energy is a vehicle to speed up that process. Measures under the previous Government, of which he was of course part, made that more and more difficult—for example, the onshore wind ban, which one of his colleagues said was “always mad”. We need to recognise that this is a change of direction. If we agree that the only way to bring down bills and reduce the wholesale cost for good is to move to more secure home-grown green energy, we need to have the full commitment of Government to deliver that.
I will now turn to amendment 14, which would require the Secretary of State to give
“specific direction to Great British Energy that it must report…on the progress made by Great British Energy towards”
electricity prices. The report set out in the hon. Gentleman’s amendment must be made within two years of Royal Assent. We will resist the amendment today, because we think it is unnecessary.
As I have already outlined, the shift to clean energy is about increasing home-grown power and accelerating the reduction of our exposure to international markets. Broader than Great British Energy, the Government are running a series of programmes and reforms to pass on cheaper renewables to consumers. For example, as we mentioned earlier, there is the review of electricity market arrangements.
As a publicly owned company, Great British Energy will be accountable through regular reporting to the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero. Furthermore, like other arm’s length bodies of Government, it will be accountable to Parliament, but will operate independently, at arm’s length, from Ministers. That is important, because the point of setting up a publicly owned energy company independent of Government is to bring in the skills and experience of an executive board and staff who will not be directed day to day by Government, but will, of course, work within the parameters that we have set it. As I have said in response to a number of amendments today, adding further unnecessary detail risks restricting the company in carrying out its activities, and is against what we have said in setting out the Bill.
Andrew Bowie
I have nothing to add, other than to inform the Committee that we will press the amendment to a vote.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
The Chair
I am not sure whether Dr Huq referred to this in the morning, but before we proceed, I will say that ordinarily, at the end of a clause, there is a stand part debate on whether the clause, or the clause as amended, should stand part of the Bill. That debate is in the gift of the Chair. I am usually pretty relaxed about this, and I dare say that Dr Huq is as well. I understand that there was a fairly comprehensive debate on the first group of amendments this morning, so my impression is that we will probably not require a stand part debate.
The quid pro quo for that is a degree of flexibility when we come to talk about things, because very often matters overlap. I have always said that as far as I am concerned, you can have a stand part debate on the first group of amendments if you like, because very often the greater includes the lesser, but you cannot have your cake and eat it—you cannot do it twice. Hon. Members should bear in mind that if there are things that they want to say, it might be a good idea to say them, because they probably will not get the chance in a clause stand part debate. I hope that that is clear.
Andrew Bowie
I beg to move amendment 15, in clause 5, page 3, line 8, at end insert—
“(1A) The statement of strategic priorities under subsection (1) must include the creation of 650,000 new jobs in the United Kingdom by 2030 resulting directly or indirectly from Great British Energy’s pursuit of its objectives under section 3.”
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 16, in clause 6, page 3, line 38, at end insert—
“(1A)
(a) The Secretary of State must give a specific direction to Great British Energy that it must report to the Secretary of State on the progress made by Great British Energy towards the strategic priority of creating 650,000 new jobs in the United Kingdom by 2030.
(b) A report under paragraph (a) must be made within two years of the date of Royal Assent to this Act and annually thereafter.
(c) The Secretary of State must lay a report made under paragraph (a) before Parliament.”
Andrew Bowie
The amendments would create a specific strategic priority for Great British Energy to create 650,000 new jobs in the United Kingdom by 2030, and require the production of an annual report on the progress of meeting that strategic priority.
It is worth our while this afternoon to take some time to consider the achievements of the previous Conservative Government in driving towards a cleaner energy future. It was a Conservative Government, under Prime Minister Theresa May, who legislated for net zero in 2019. It was a Conservative Government who began and created the contract for difference process, which was looked at with awe by the world at that stage—
Torcuil Crichton (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Lab)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Torcuil Crichton
Was it not also a Conservative Government who refused to take the decision to give Harland & Wolff the funding that would have kept it open and avoided administration and now sale, and who left that hard decision to the incoming Labour Government?
Andrew Bowie
As the hon. Gentleman knows, there are many hard decisions to be taken in government, and every decision that the Government have to take has to provide value for money for the British taxpayer. I know that this Government recognise that, given the decision they have taken to remove £300 from every pensioner in the country—something I think they will come to regret.
As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted, the Conservative Government built the first to fifth largest offshore wind farms in the world, ended coal for power generation and halved emissions at the fastest rate of any G7 power. In that regard, I know that everybody in the room is proud of the record of the Conservative Government just gone and will champion it in our work as we move forward.
Nevertheless, the issue of skills, and the lack of the skilled workforce required to deliver the next phase of the transition, was always at the forefront of Ministers’ minds. Indeed, because of that we established the nuclear skills fund when I was the Minister responsible for nuclear.
Andrew Pakes (Peterborough) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman has forgotten to mention the onshore wind ban, which is really important. If he wants to celebrate his record, let us celebrate it in the full glare of light. Does he agree that one of our big challenges in this country is that we failed to make any progress on nuclear in the last 14 years? We talk about new jobs, but we are losing skilled engineering and nuclear jobs in this country today because they are going to other countries, because those countries are making the progress that we have failed to make.
Andrew Bowie
The hon. Gentleman draws me on to nuclear, which is a dangerous place for me to be drawn, as the Minister will know, because we could spend all afternoon talking about the Conservative Government’s legacy on nuclear—
Andrew Bowie
You might have other ideas, Sir Roger. The legacy is the creation of Great British Nuclear; the beginning of the small modular reactor down-selection programme; the development consent order move in respect of Sizewell C; £200 million invested into high-assay low-enriched uranium fuels to be developed here in the United Kingdom; moving forward at pace with Hinkley Point C; and a commitment to build a third gigawatt-scale reactor at Wylfa—something that this Government have abandoned. It is not the Conservative party that the nuclear industry has a problem with; the industry is now worried about the go-slow on nuclear being implemented in this country by the new Labour Government, because of their obsession with putting all their eggs in one basket of renewables and not looking to the wider benefits of investing in nuclear as well.
On the hon. Gentleman’s point about the onshore wind ban, we delivered everything that I have listed while respecting the rights of communities in this country not to have the countryside where they live, and that they respect and enjoy, industrialised. That is why we had stipulations on communities having a right over what was built in them. I stand by that. It was a good policy and we still halved our emissions faster than any other G7 nation.
When we were in government, we established the nuclear skills taskforce to address the skills gap of 250,000 people that the nuclear industry alone would have were we to deliver all the projects we seek to deliver in defence and energy. We all know that clean energy technology brings employment with it. Estimates for job creation in the transition range from 136,000 jobs to 725,000 jobs by 2030. We all know how beneficial clean energy technology can be for local communities when it comes to employment. Projects such as Sizewell C drive investment—it will bring as many as 25,000 new jobs to Suffolk, and there are already 1,000 apprenticeships in the area. These are high-paid, high-skilled jobs that deliver for the community.
We have heard from the Labour Government that GB Energy will create 650,000 new jobs. On Tuesday, when I asked the chairman, Juergen Maier, about the number of jobs to be based in Aberdeen, he told us that it would be hundreds or even 1,000. I hope that Aberdeen will benefit significantly from being the base for the HQ of GB Energy and that that is not merely paying lip service to a community that is losing out in investment, prosperity and employment opportunities as a result of the energy profits levy increases, the lack of investment allowances, the disinclination to offer new licences in the North sea and the impact that that will have on investment in the transition.
I represent a constituency near Aberdeen, where a significant proportion of constituents are employed in the oil and gas industry directly, or indirectly in the supply chain. The potential for new jobs and the preservation of existing jobs are deeply personal to me and other MPs in the room. In fact, 65,000 people in Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire are employed in that industry and in the supply chain, so I know how impactful on communities those jobs are. I therefore move that we include the creation of 650,000 new jobs as a strategic priority for GB Energy, as well as including the requirement to report on the progress made towards that ambition. If we do not deliver the new jobs and do not ensure that as we move through the transition, those working in the oil and gas industry will have jobs secured into the future—as well as creating the new jobs by delivering the projects we were seeking to, as I know the Labour Government seek to—we will have failed in all our shared ambitions.
Olivia Blake (Sheffield Hallam) (Lab)
The shadow Minister’s amendment seems to be a bit of a fig leaf over the failure of the previous Government to secure good, high-quality, unionised jobs in the green energy sector. We need only look at offshore wind. I have cited these statistics before, but in 2010 some 70,000 jobs were promised from the UK offshore wind sector. Unfortunately, 10 years later, it had delivered only 11,900, which is only 5,600 more than were achieved by 2014.
The capacity of offshore wind went up by a huge percentage under the previous Government, for which they should be commended, but their strategy in the past 14 years meant that while they were building offshore wind, they were also offshoring all the jobs that went with it. There was no strategy to cultivate labour-intensive sections of the supply chain; the majority of jobs went abroad. Not enough went into supporting the creation of servicing jobs in the UK. Furthermore, in another element of policy, the embarrassment and failure of the green homes grant truly laid bare the fact that we did not have the right industrial strategy—we had no industrial strategy to support the creation of jobs in those industries or to support a Government intervention such as the green homes grant.
A lot can be said about the opportunities that GB Energy offers. On Tuesday, the TUC agreed that GB Energy would be an enabler for a just transition for those currently working, but it is also my belief that this is a real opportunity for new jobs for the next generation. We have real potential to lever in a huge opportunity going forward to be a main player internationally in some of our emerging technologies.
I am proud to represent a constituency in Sheffield, where we have a lot of research capacity in many different areas related to energy, from battery storage to hydrogen and new nuclear. A lot of research is happening. Such innovation is important to allow for manufacturing jobs to spin off from the primary research.
The amendment is all well and good, but I think it is a little bit rich coming from the Conservative shadow Minister, given the abject failure to deliver on the jobs that we were promised under the previous Government.
Andrew Bowie
I have said publicly on the Floor of the House and in other places that we did not see the creation of the jobs that we wanted as a result of our revolution in energy production here in the United Kingdom. As I said, we have the first, second, third, fourth and fifth largest offshore wind farms in the world, which is a source of great pride, but the jobs onshore created as a result of that simply did not come about, hence why we were moving towards the creation of the sustainable industry rewards and were encouraging companies to invest and create the jobs. If the hon. Lady agrees that we should have done more to create jobs, surely she also agrees with the purpose of the amendment, which is to ensure that GB Energy will have as one of its stated aims the creation of 650,000 jobs in new and emerging technologies.
Olivia Blake
I would not want to limit the possibilities of GB Energy with a number. It is a big number that the hon. Gentleman has put here but, to be honest, there are huge opportunities in all the energy areas—especially in the supply chain within the UK, but also in the transition of jobs. It is really important that we take it in the round and allow GB Energy to play its role. Not all jobs will come from GB Energy; they will come from the much broader investments that we will see over the next decade. We have had a lost decade in this regard, and there is a lot of skills work that needs to come.
Michael Shanks
I will start where the brilliant speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Hallam left off. It is a bit rich for the Opposition to talk about fixing the issue with jobs in the renewables sector that they failed to fix for 14 years. First, I take the issue that the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine raised about jobs in Aberdeen, because it is an extremely important subject, but I think he confuses two things— I would suggest perhaps deliberately. Juergen Maier clearly said on Tuesday that the headquarters of Great British Energy in Aberdeen will have jobs in the hundreds, perhaps expanding in the years ahead, but that the jobs created by Great British Energy are much more than the headquarters. We have always said that it is the investments that Great British Energy makes that will invest in jobs in Aberdeen, in the north-east of Scotland and right across the UK, in the tens of thousands. That is important to separate out.
The hon. Gentleman’s point about the transition is really important, both to the Bill and more broadly. He is right: long before this Labour Government were elected, there was a transition under way in the north-east of Scotland. It is a declining mature basin. It is important that we now take seriously what that transition looks like, and that will require tens of thousands of new, skilled and—crucially, for the north-east of Scotland in particular—well-paid jobs. That is what we are attempting to do with Great British Energy but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Hallam says, Great British Energy is not the only vehicle for it. We have deliberately said that we will set out an industrial strategy, because we are not a Government who think that manufacturing jobs in this country and an industrial strategy are an irrelevance. Actually, they are critical to our economic future.
Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)
The Minister has tempted me to have a look at what Juergen Maier said. I asked him very clearly how many jobs would be in Aberdeen. His response was quite clear:
“It will be in the hundreds; it may eventually be 1,000 or more in the HQ.”––[Official Report, Great British Energy Public Bill Committee, 8 October 2024; c. 6, Q4.]
The HQ is, of course, Aberdeen. That would run contrary to what the Minister has just said.
Michael Shanks
That is not what I said at all. What I said a moment ago is exactly the same, which is that in the short term—in the start-up phase of the company—there will be a few hundred people. That is exactly what Juergen Maier said. In future, our aim—particularly with the right hon. Gentleman’s support, which I was not expecting at the start of today—is that it will grow even further, into a much bigger company. As a result, we expect that there could very well be thousands of jobs in the headquarters in Aberdeen. I am not ruling anything out or limiting the potential of Great British Energy, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman is not either. I make this point again, for the benefit of the right hon. Gentleman: critically, that is not the limit of the jobs that will be created by Great British Energy. It is important to recognise that the jobs potential will come from the investments and partnerships that it makes.
Harriet Cross (Gordon and Buchan) (Con)
The second part of the amendment states that the jobs should be created by 2030. That timescale is really important, because it ensures that the expertise we have now can be retained to help build these jobs of the future. Even if the Government will not commit to the figure, will they look at the timescale, which will give the industry certainty?
Michael Shanks
For reasons I will come to in a moment, we will not agree to the amendment because we will not put timeframes and numbers in the Bill—we do not see those in any piece of legislation from the previous Government or any other Government, and for very good reason. However, the hon. Lady is right that this decade is absolutely critical for this issue. That is why I am taking it very seriously, and will happily have conversations with her about how we get these jobs as quickly as possible. The timeframe for that is important, but it is also important that we start with building things such as Great British Energy, which I hope she will support, and our broader policy around the office for clean energy jobs, our industrial strategy and our increased investment in things such as the renewables auction.
To come back to what the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine said about offshore wind, he took some credit for it, but of course his Government have to take responsibility for the complete failure on offshore wind in the last auction. We have turned that around with some really successful projects and want to build considerably more in the future. He gave an absolute masterclass for a new Minister like me on how to speak to something—the onshore energy ban in England—that I know he does not believe in, because he is a smart guy.
The reality is that that was ideology over delivery of something critically important. Now, we have inherited not just a lack of projects that would help us towards clean power and deliver jobs right across the UK, but an empty pipeline of projects, given the length of time where wind in England was banned. It is a ridiculous policy that I do not believe for a second the hon. Gentleman supports, but it was a very good example for me on how to deliver a line.
As I said earlier, this clause is specifically about giving very particular, rare directions in urgent or unforeseen circumstances. It is not a clause we expect the Secretary of State to be using regularly. That is important, because I suspect that if it was phrased in any other way, the hon. Gentleman would quite rightly propose an amendment limiting the powers of the Secretary of State to doing exactly that. This clause is about ensuring that Great British Energy has the space to fulfil its strategic priorities. Amendment 16 would widen that intention by adding a long-term goal.
More broadly, and relevant to both the hon. Gentleman’s amendments, I repeat that the aim of Great British Energy is to be operationally independent from Government. The Bill focuses solely on making the absolutely necessary provisions to establish the company. Adding further unnecessary detail—detail I know the Conservative party would not dream of adding to any of its own legislation—risks restricting the company in carrying out its activities and goes against what we have said. That sentiment was supported by almost every witness, including on specific questions about this matter, where I think people were hoping for different answers. Every single witness confirmed that the Bill is in the right place here. For those reasons, and many others, we will not be supporting the amendments.
Andrew Bowie
In confirming that we will be putting the amendments to a vote, I put on the record my congratulations to the Minister, because he may have achieved what I thought was unachievable: getting the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South to welcome and support something with “Great British” in its title. That is a quite a significant achievement, if I may say so.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Andrew Bowie
I beg to move amendment 17, in clause 5, page 3, line 8, at end insert—
“(1A)
(a) The statement of strategic priorities under subsection (1) must include developing supply chains within the United Kingdom in the pursuit of Great British Energy’s objects under section 3.
(b) ‘supply chains’ means the network of individuals, organisations, resources, activities and technology involved in the creation and sale of a commodity connected with Great British Energy’s objects under section 3.”
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 18, in clause 6, page 3, line 38, at end insert—
“(1A)
(a) The Secretary of State must give a specific direction to Great British Energy that it must report to the Secretary of State on the progress made by Great British Energy towards the strategic priority of developing supply chains within the United Kingdom.
(b) A report under paragraph (a) must be made within two years of the date of Royal Assent to this Act and annually thereafter.
(c) The Secretary of State must lay a report made under paragraph (a) before Parliament.”
Andrew Bowie
Amendment 17 would introduce a specific strategic priority for Great British Energy to develop UK energy supply chains and require that an annual report be produced on the progress towards meeting that strategic priority.
We believe it is essential that our transition to net zero does not increase our reliance on foreign countries, foreign supply chains or, in particular, hostile foreign countries. We all want to see a “made in Britain” transition, where our offshore wind turbines are constructed by British manufacturing companies, are erected by highly skilled British workers and deliver clean, cheap energy for British homes and businesses. That is why I have tabled amendment 17, which would make establishing domestic supply chains a strategic priority for Great British Energy.
In the transition to net zero, we are presented with a great opportunity for investment and new jobs. As with employment, we must ensure that it is people in these islands and domestic companies that will benefit from the increase in investment that we hope to see in the new technologies in the coming years. We must not outsource our energy transition. In this transition, we will need steel for our turbines and oil for our turbines. The transition is one that spans the energy industry and incorporates the North sea.
Catherine Fookes (Monmouthshire) (Lab)
The hon. Member mentions steel. While his party were in power for 14 years, they had the chance to intervene and support the workers at Llanwern and Port Talbot, many of whom live in my constituency. Does he not agree that if his party had done more during their 14 years in power to support those workers, we would have much greater capacity to produce our own steel and for the transfer to green steel, which would help us to have a stronger UK-based energy industry?
Andrew Bowie
I am very proud of everything that we did in government to support our steelworkers and those communities around the country that depend on those jobs. It is desperately sad to see what has happened in Port Talbot recently. That is an example of what we must avoid moving forward, and something that we must avoid happening in the North sea, for example, where workers engaged in traditional industries are fearful about where their jobs sit in the forthcoming transition. Although I do not agree that we did not do everything we could to support steelmaking at Port Talbot, I do think that it is an example to learn from and one that we must avoid in the future.
Torcuil Crichton
What the shadow Minister is describing sounds like an industrial strategy—something that we have been missing for 14 years.
Andrew Bowie
Well, not quite. We did have an industrial strategy. We had a Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. It is not an industrial strategy. The amendment aims to establish within the strategic priorities of this company a commitment to deliver a UK-based supply chain, which is something that we sought to do while in Government, with the sustainable industry reward scheme that will launch next year with the auction round for the contracts for difference, and through other programmes and investment opportunities that we were seeking to see come to fruition. I am very glad that this Government seem to be taking the challenge in this regard just as seriously as we did.
The transition we are in just now spans our entire energy industry and incorporates the North sea and our homegrown petroleum outputs. As noted by the Climate Change Committee, we will need oil and gas for decades to come, not just as an energy baseload but as a key component in the transition and in the technologies for the transition.
In our electric vehicles and our batteries, we will need lithium. In 2023, Cornish Lithium opened Britain’s first lithium mine in Cornwall, with £53.6 million investment led by the UK Infrastructure Bank, which we established in 2021, to invest in our domestic supply chain, our clean technology supply chain and our energy future.
In our solar panels, we need silver, indium and copper. In our grid systems, we need kilometres and kilometres of copper. In fact, renewable energy will drive 45% of copper demand by 2030. Our reliance on China for low-cost, clean technology and minerals should worry us all. In 2022, we imported 64% of rare earth metals and 49% of lithium batteries from China.
Andrew Bowie
I would be delighted to give way to the hon. Member for Cornwall.
Perran Moon
The hon. Member for Camborne, Redruth and Hayle—but I take the shadow Minister’s point. As he said, it is important to consider that an awful lot of our critical minerals are imported from the other side of the world, from Australasia and China, but that in Cornwall we have massive deposits of tin, lithium and tungsten. Does he agree that one opportunity that might come from GB Energy is to expand British jobs in Cornwall and areas that are extremely deprived? In that respect, might he support GB Energy?
Andrew Bowie
The hon. Gentleman almost had me —I was almost there. We support creating new jobs in Cornwall. The opening of the mine last year was an incredibly positive step. It was delivered as a result of the UK Infrastructure Bank and the £53 million investment that we drove. The future for Cornwall is incredibly bright when it comes to critical minerals and its ability to supply UK projects and, moving forward, to export across the world. We have not even touched on the potential of geothermal in Cornwall, which is huge and extensive. Cornwall will match only Aberdeen in its importance on our energy journey—nearly match, but not quite.
We need to ensure the supply chains required. The building of clean energy infrastructure will benefit British companies with as much domestic involvement in supply and manufacture as possible. Not only does that safeguard our energy future against the impacts of disruption to the international system, such as we saw during the pandemic, but it reinvests the capital at Great British Energy’s disposal into UK supply chains. Supply chains are a vital component of the employment opportunities here in the UK, as well as our energy security in future.
Harriet Cross
Does my hon. Friend agree that the supply chains that we have are used to delivering large-scale multimillion-pound projects? That is important not only for home-grown jobs, but for the success of GB Energy and any infrastructure and skills that will come out of it. We need our home-grown supply chain, which is world renowned, to help deliver this.
Andrew Bowie
My hon. Friend and constituency neighbour is absolutely right. I completely agree. She is a doughty champion for supply chain jobs based in her constituency, in mine, in that of the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South and in others across the country. One reason that we have been so critical of this Labour Government’s North sea policies—the extension and increase of the energy profits levy, the removal of investment allowances, the removal of further licences in the North sea—is the impact on the domestic supply chain jobs that exist already and, by the way, on the high-skilled jobs that will deliver the cleaner energy future that we all want to get to.
That is why I and others in Committee have been so critical in the past—it is not that we do not want to see the transition; it is that we want the oil and gas industry, and those people in the supply chain who are employed by it now, to be a part of that transition. Without a successful domestic oil and gas industry or domestic supply chain, we will not deliver any of the projects that we are speaking so glowingly about in Committee and over the past few weeks, months and years. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gordon and Buchan says, it is critical for the supply chain to support net zero transition.
Security of supply chain is absolutely relevant to the objectives of GB Energy and should be included as a strategic priority, hence the amendment. I also tabled amendment 18, which would introduce the direction for GB Energy to report to the Secretary of State on the progress being made towards developing domestic supply chains.
Michael Shanks
I am enjoying this debate more and more. I feel that by the end of today, or Tuesday at a push, we may get the hon. Gentleman’s support for Great British Energy. I look forward to that.
The very argument that the hon. Gentleman has put forward for both amendments emphasises the absolute failure of 14 years of his Government. The very fact that he is making those points emphasises how much they failed. I welcome the realisation, albeit somewhat late, that manufacturing in the UK and having jobs in this country delivering for the energy future are important. The Kincardine wind farm off the coast not far from his constituency—perhaps it is in his constituency—is a very good example. It was towed into place, with all the jobs offshored somewhere else. That example that shows why we need to do things differently. Great British Energy and our industrial strategy are part of that.
While I could spend this time criticising the previous Government, I will simply welcome the fact that the hon. Gentleman has showed up to the party at all. This is a key part of what Great British Energy will do. The supply chains are critical, because 80% of the jobs in the oil and gas industry are in the supply chains, and the good, well-paid jobs we need for the future will be there too. I think it might have been the witness from the GMB who made a very good point about jobs in welding. That is a good example of where we can have real, well-paid jobs for the future if we invest in those skills now, and that is exactly what Great British Energy will do.
However, Great British Energy is not the only part that will deliver on those jobs. The Department for Business and Trade is also working at pace to develop an industrial strategy that will include detailed work on the supply chains, and we are working through the various taskforces launched under the previous Government and continued by this Government. For example, on the solar taskforce we have been looking clearly at how we can bring those jobs to the UK. The hon. Gentleman rightly talked about the security of where some of those manufacturing jobs are in the world—places in the world that we would rather they were not. Bringing some of that manufacturing capacity to the UK will be difficult in some of those industries, but it is important to do it so that we have resilient, diverse and sustainable supply chains.
My Department has also established an office for clean energy jobs, which will focus on developing the skills and the training for the workforce in core energy and net zero sectors around the transition, but also, critically, on bringing on the next generation of apprentices and workers in the skills and jobs that we did not know existed until the last few years. That will ensure the sustainability of our supply chains and meet our mission to make the UK a clean energy superpower.
Although it is welcome to hear the commitments from a Conservative party that has had something of a conversion on this issue, we do not think that amendments 17 and 18 are necessary to the Bill, because the Government are already committed to delivering our intentions.
Andrew Bowie
I do think that the amendments are necessary. If we are to go through the process of creating this company, we should set out as one of its objects the creation and sustainability of a UK-based supply chain, and indeed of the manufacturing jobs that come with that. For that reason, I will press amendment 17 to a vote.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Stephen Flynn
I beg to move amendment 4, in clause 5, page 3, line 10, leave out subsection (3) and insert—
“(3) A statement under subsection (1) or a revised or replacement statement under subsection (2) will not take effect unless a draft has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.”
Before I begin my remarks, it is probably best that I correct the record on behalf of the shadow Minister. It is not just in relation to Great British Energy that I have expressed some positivity; I did once watch “The Great British Bake Off” as well.
That aside, it was put to me by some members of the Labour party back in Scotland that I was not supportive of GB Energy, because I did not go through the Lobby with the Government some weeks ago, as I think the Minister referred to in his remarks today. The reason I did not go through the Lobby with the Government that day was that I was not entirely sure what GB Energy was going to do.
In fact, based on the information before us in this Bill, I am still not entirely sure what GB Energy is going to do in practice; it seems to be all things to all people. In principle, perhaps that is not a bad thing, and those who gave evidence to us put forward a number of positive arguments of the necessity for that to be the case, whether in relation to production, generation, the supply of energy or the community projects that Members have spoken about at length.
The purpose of my amendment is to ensure that the House of Commons is fully apprised of exactly what the Secretary of State intends GB Energy to achieve. That will be hugely important, particularly in the context of Scotland, because much of what has been discussed in relation to GB Energy, and the opportunities that may or may not exist, will ultimately be intrinsically linked to the success of projects in Scotland, where the majority of the UK’s renewable energy resource sits. Indeed, I think the director of the Confederation of British Industry said that it is a “golden ticket” to economic growth for the entire UK. Imagine what an independent Scotland could achieve in that context.
The point of the amendment is to ensure that the House of Commons is able to fully appraise the direction that the Secretary of State wishes to take. That might cause Labour Members some consternation, because they have just been elected with a massive majority and may well be able to set out their strategic vision, but they need to remember that they will not be in government forever. They will at some point be replaced—I am not entirely sure who will replace them; there is a decent suggestion that it will probably be by the Lib Dems rather than by the Conservatives, based on the leadership candidates.
However, the amendment would ensure that future parliamentarians and future groups of politicians will be able to apply the same scrutiny that I expect of Government today. I think it is good practice. In years to come, should the Conservative party, the Lib Dems or perhaps some other nefarious party come to control the UK state, they should not be able to do anything contrary to the wishes of Parliament without its having the ability to shape the future of what will hopefully be a successful intervention into the energy market, albeit one with very small amounts of money to drive forward the multiple goals that it seeks to achieve.
Michael Shanks
The right hon. Gentleman tempts me into discussing both independence and the future of the Conservative party, but for your sake, Sir Roger, I will not go into either, although I hope there will be such opportunities in the future. I will make two points in response to the amendment, and there is a broader point, which I will stay off for the moment, that we will return to in the next series of amendments around the role of the devolved Administrations—
Michael Shanks
The devolved Administrations in terms of the Governments—I thank the right hon. Gentleman.
The first thing to say is that the statement of strategic priorities cannot overrule the objectives in the Bill. If an incoming Government—I will not say “nefarious” or otherwise—were seeking to use Great British Energy for a whole other purpose, they would not be able to, because the legislation sets out exactly what it will be used for, and that will be in the articles of association. Those objects set the overarching framework for Great British Energy’s activities and it is right that this framework is in legislation passed by Parliament and debated here today in clause 3.
Were we to move to a point where we required parliamentary approval of the statement of strategic priorities, which is only designed to provide direction in the priorities that the Government sets for the company, we would create unnecessary burdens on the company. Going back to the points in the Lib Dem amendments from earlier, I am concerned that, rather than Great British Energy getting on with delivering, we would end up in a constant cycle in which people add various things—I think someone said “baubles” earlier on, but I am not sure that I will continue that metaphor—into the statement of strategic priorities that would take away from it actually delivering the objects that we will hopefully pass in this Bill.
Pippa Heylings (South Cambridgeshire) (LD)
Taking away labels such as “nefarious” or “baubles” and moving to the serious intent of our interventions, this is about scrutiny, and I take the point from the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South in that respect. We heard from witnesses that if the objects remain broad, they are reassured that all their issues will be contained within the statement of priorities. Will the Minister reassure us about the engagement that will happen prior to the development of those priorities? If it will not happen through the House, what will the process be? Instead of baubles, we may find bits of home-made tinsel hanging on this majestic tree, which is not exactly what was bought in the shop, to continue the metaphor.
Pippa Heylings
British-made and home-made. I think the serious issue is the extent to which there is reassurance that a statement of priorities, which everybody is accepting will be within the remit of the objects, will fulfil expectations and not steer into areas in which there will be duplication.
Michael Shanks
I think my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough has a lot to answer for, with the metaphors that have now started, but the hon. Lady makes a serious point. I would just gently challenge one point that she makes. The statement of strategic priorities is not about giving every detail on all the objects. The direction of the company is already very clear. The reason that the objects have been left broad is so that the company can explore opportunities in all those areas without having to come back and get direction on every single point.
Michael Shanks
I will answer the previous intervention first. The point of having an independent company—this is why it is used as a mechanism by Governments of all types—is that it can have the flexibility to move. That flexibility is within the very strict parameters set by Government, but with a broad scope to move into opportunities as they arise.
Wera Hobhouse
I thank the Minister for giving way. The second part of his reply answered what I am worried about, and what we as a Committee have been worried about all along, which is parliamentary scrutiny. Will the Minister advise at what point that parliamentary scrutiny can be exercised?
Michael Shanks
The hon. Lady is well versed in how Parliament works, and there are a number of mechanisms already open to Parliament to scrutinise the work of the Department and the Secretary of State. Indeed, the transparency around clause 5 is that this will be laid before Parliament in the same way that the priorities for the UK Infrastructure Bank and various other independent companies are laid before Parliament.
On the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire’s second point, which I did not get to and is a very fair point, we are not seeking to design something behind closed doors that has no engagement. I have taken a lot of meetings in the three months that I have been a Minister, and I am very happy to take many more. We want to hear a broad range of views on this and we are happy to discuss it, but there is a balance between having an open approach to how we create, draft and bring ideas together, and ending up with a document—in the end, it will not be a huge document—that just goes round a process for months on end and stops the company from getting on with what we want it to do.
We heard from all the witnesses on Tuesday that speed is important; we do not want to waste any time, and I think that the Liberal Democrats support that approach. We want to get on and do it, and that is important. As I said earlier, I will come on to the point about the devolved Governments and the engagement that we plan with them in due course.
Furthermore, in setting up a company, the company is subject to all the requirements that other companies are, in terms of Companies House and having to produce annual accounts and an annual report. The activities of the board will also, of course, be available so that people can see what decisions the company is making. It is important that this company is at arm’s length from Government but has all the benefits of being publicly owned, in that it is required to manage the stewardship of public funds in a careful and accountable way.
In my view, the amendment is unnecessary, as the processes are already in place to scrutinise the work of Great British Energy and the work of the Department more generally. We will not be accepting the amendment today.
Stephen Flynn
I thank the Minister for his reply. I gently suggest that, if he were still sitting on the Opposition Benches, his view would be slightly different. I simply remind him in that context that he will not always be sitting on the Government side. If a future Secretary of State decides to change the strategic priorities of Great British Energy, then I am sure, at that point, he and his colleagues would like to have the ability to review, revise and discuss that within the democratic structures that we have. On that basis, I will press the amendment to a vote.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
The Chair
I think that we can safely say that the Noes have it.
Question accordingly negatived.
Stephen Flynn
I beg to move amendment 5, in clause 5, page 3, line 12, leave out “consult” and insert
“seek and gain consent of”.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 7, in clause 5, page 3, line 28, leave out “(4) to (6)” and insert
“(5) and (6) or to gain consent imposed by subsection (4)”.
This amendment is consequential on Amendment 5.
Amendment 6, in clause 5, page 3, line 29, at end insert—
“(7A) The Secretary of State must by regulations provide for a process by which consent can be signified under subsection (4).”
This amendment is consequential on Amendment 5.
Stephen Flynn
These amendments are hopefully self-explanatory to Members. I am extremely keen to hear the Minister’s thoughts on them. As I referred to in my initial remarks, much of the success of the UK’s energy sector will be derived from the success of renewables projects in Scotland, whether that is the continuation of onshore wind, further development of fixed-bottom offshore wind, floating offshore wind, pumped storage hydro, green hydrogen, blue hydrogen, tidal, wave, and so on. The sun sometimes shines as well, so we might get some solar panels in there too—perhaps just in Na h-Eileanan an Iar, though, as opposed to Aberdeen.
I know that the Minister has been engaging proactively with my colleagues in Scotland, that there have been a lot of positive discussions, and that Mr Maier was up with the First Minister in recent weeks to discuss the future outlook for GB Energy. If the respect agenda that the new Labour Government appear to have put in place is to mean something, it is important that they are willing and confident enough in their arguments to seek the fulsome consent of the Scottish Parliament—not just the Scottish National party, because I am conscious, as I said earlier, that it may not always be the Scottish National party that is there.
Torcuil Crichton
I rise not just to reassure the right hon. Gentleman that the sun does shine in the Western Isles, but to note that these amendments seem quite complex—blocking amendments, actually, that would prevent the business and progress of GB Energy. They read a bit like last year’s script because, as he mentioned, the Scottish Government and the UK Government work hand in hand now. My friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, and the Deputy First Minister of Scotland, who is a frenemy, speak on a regular—daily or at most weekly—basis. The Governments work together, rendering these clauses unnecessary.
Stephen Flynn
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, although I am a bit disappointed that he regards seeking the consent of Scotland’s nationally elected Parliament as a blocking amendment. That is quite a Westminster mentality that he has adopted already in the few short weeks that he has been here—perhaps that is an indication of where his party intends to go in the months and years to come. Notwithstanding that, because I do not believe it was a necessary or helpful intervention in that context, I would be very keen to hear from the Minister on why he does not believe he should seek the consent of Scotland’s Parliament.
Michael Shanks
These are very important amendments, as I alluded to when discussing the last group of amendments. Since I became a Minister, I have worked very hard to reset the relationship. Indeed, the Prime Minister’s first official visit was, deliberately, to Scotland. He has set a clear expectation that all Ministers should be engaging with not just the Scottish Government but the Welsh Government and the Administration in Northern Ireland. That is particularly important in the energy space, because our priorities are broadly aligned. There are slight differences in targets and projects, but we all want to move in the same direction across all Governments of the United Kingdom, which is beneficial.
Andrew Bowie
I must take issue with some of the language about this reset—the normalisation of relations and the new respect agenda. We had an incredibly constructive working relationship with the Scottish Government while we were in government. Indeed, had we not, none of the projects that we see established now—we have talked about having the first to the fifth-largest offshore wind farms—and none of the discussions we are having about new technologies would actually have gotten off the ground.
A lot is made of the fact that the new Prime Minister’s first visit in office was to Scotland, but it was also the first visit of Prime Ministers Theresa May, Boris Johnson and my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond and Northallerton (Rishi Sunak). Our commitment to working with the Scottish Government was demonstrated by what we delivered in our time in office. I very much hope that the Minister continues to enjoy his relationship with the Scottish Government, although I worry that as we move towards 2026 and the devolved election, this new warm relationship between the Labour party and the Scottish National party may become somewhat chillier.
Michael Shanks
I would have stopped short of the hon. Gentleman’s final point, which I will not repeat; I think that was more to salve his own conscience than to add any value to the debate. He may want to speak to the other side about some of those discussions to get a sense of whether the joyous relationship that he described was reciprocated. The fact is that if we want to achieve outcomes across the UK, whatever the political differences—they are significant, and he is right that they will become more significant in the few years ahead—we still need to be the grown-ups in the room and work to deliver them. My engagement has been very much around how we bring in the views of Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish colleagues.
Catherine Fookes
It is a bit rich hearing the Opposition talk about how to work with the devolved Administrations. I am pleased to see in the Bill that Welsh Ministers will be consulted. The previous relationship between the Conservative Government here and the Labour Government in Cardiff was appalling. Often, the phone was not picked up to Mark Drakeford when he was First Minister. Could the Minister confirm that he will work with the Welsh Government and with our organisation, Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru, which is similar to Great British Energy, and how he will do that?
Michael Shanks
I thank my hon. Friend for her well-made point. Across the UK, we are resetting the way we do these relationships. It is not just the visits and set-piece moments; it is the day-to-day engagement and agreement. There is fulsome discussion and disagreement, but it leads to the view that, actually, we generally agree on the same outcomes and want to work out how to work co-operatively to achieve them. That is what the public would want us to do across these islands.
I will point out some of the engagement we have already had. The First Minister met recently with the start-up chair of Great British Energy and the Cabinet Secretary. I have met the Cabinet Secretary almost every week that I have been in post. It is important to talk through these issues and we think that consultation on the statement of strategic priorities is incredibly important.
I object to the amendment to move to a consent process for exactly the same reason that I gave in answer to the previous point. It is not that I do not want any engagement, but that I do not want us to get tied up in a process. In our engagement with Scottish colleagues, the challenge is how the Government reflect the view of the Scottish Parliament without everything going back through a process in committees. My real worry is that we get tied up in months and months of engagement, trying to find dates in calendars to discuss elements of the strategic plan, and do not actually get on with delivering things.
Josh MacAlister (Whitehaven and Workington) (Lab)
The right hon. Member for Aberdeen South made an important point about elected representatives from Scotland having a role in the strategic priorities for Great British Energy. But this is the United Kingdom Parliament, in which we have good and appropriate representation of Scottish electors, and very strongly and proudly so on the Labour Benches. Surely the UK Parliament and the UK Government are well-positioned to reflect the interests of the whole United Kingdom rather than, as the Minister is indicating, going through multiple repetitive processes that would hamper the ability of Great British Energy to achieve the goals that the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South surely wants for his own constituents.
Michael Shanks
I take that point. I will come back to the role of the UK Government in Great British Energy in a moment, as it is important. Of course I want to engage with Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish colleagues in this place, but I also want to find a way to engage constructively with the devolved Parliaments and Administrations, not just on the statement of priorities but far beyond that. We have already had conversations about how the board of Great British Energy might engage with the Scottish Government on a more regular basis. We are very open to those ideas, but—to come back to this point briefly—it is important that Great British Energy is funded and directed by the UK Government and therefore ultimately responsible to the UK Parliament.
Andrew Bowie
I thank the Minister for giving way; he is being incredibly generous with his time. Subsection (6) deals with Northern Ireland in the context of what we are discussing. Energy is a devolved competency within Northern Ireland, which works on an all-Ireland grid to deliver electricity on the island of Ireland. Is that the reason the language in that subsection is slightly different? It refers to consulting the Department for the Economy, as opposed to consulting Welsh Ministers and Scottish Ministers in the previous two subsections. How will GB Energy and the Department interact with our Northern Irish colleagues, given that GB Energy will be a body of the UK Government and paid for by UK taxpayers, but will have very little role in delivering energy in Northern Ireland?
Michael Shanks
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that important point. Early on in the development of the Bill, we had a genuine conversation with the Northern Irish Executive about whether Northern Ireland should be included in the Bill at all, on the basis—exactly as he says—that energy is completely transferred in Northern Ireland. We agreed that it was better to keep Northern Ireland in scope so that some of the benefits may come to Northern Ireland, in particular around skills and supply chains, but clearly the relationship will be very different. We do not anticipate Great British Energy funding specific projects, for example, for the reasons that he outlined.
The broader point here is a reiteration of an earlier point: Great British Energy will not have special powers compared with any other company. It is therefore important to recognise that if Great British Energy is delivering projects in Scotland, it will have to conform to Scottish planning and all the other regulations and consenting regimes in Scotland exactly as any other company operating in Scotland would. It will not have additional powers to supersede any of the regulations set by the Scottish Parliament. That is important because, clearly, although the funding will come from the UK Government through Great British Energy, the delivery of those projects, if in Scotland, will largely be the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament through the environmental planning and consenting regimes. Great British Energy will not have additional powers to supersede any of those regulations.
Stephen Flynn
I do not know whether I misheard the Minister’s last point, but I am not sure that we should view consulting the Scottish Parliament as burdensome. In fact, with both the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Senedd, and indeed with the Northern Ireland Assembly, there is a benefit for the United Kingdom in being proactive in its positive engagement with the devolved Governments and Administrations on these isles.
Notwithstanding that, I am pleased that I have been able to get this matter on the record. It is not unusual for this sort of provision to appear in legislation that applies across the UK that may carry implications for the devolved areas. In that regard, I will not press the amendment to a vote. However, I say to the Minister that my colleagues and I will hold him to account on this. As he knows, the delivery of projects relies on the Scottish Government and the UK Government working in practice on planning, consenting, the Crown Estate Scotland and the associated infrastructure. I would hate to see a situation where the strategic priorities of GB Energy, and the whole of the UK Government, change and they seek to impose their will on the Scottish Parliament in the way the previous Government did, which is why we did not have positive relations.
Michael Shanks
I agree with the broad arc of what the right hon. Gentleman has just said, but there is no mechanism for Great British Energy to impose anything on the Scottish Parliament. The whole point I was making is that it is important to recognise that Great British Energy has to operate within whatever framework any Scottish Government set for it.
Stephen Flynn
Forgive me, Sir Roger; I think the Minister and I were in agreement there. The point I was making was that a future Secretary of State may seek to change the framework of GB Energy, and that would cause me concern in that regard. However, as it stands, I am content with the Minister’s comments and will not seek to press the amendment to a vote. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Chair
I am satisfied that matters arising from clause 5 have been adequately debated, so I do not propose to call a stand part debate.
Clause 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Anna Turley.)
Great British Energy Bill (Fifth sitting)
Tuesday 15th October 2024
(1 week, 6 days ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Great British Energy Bill 2024-26 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 15 October 2024 - (15 Oct 2024)
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 1 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 11 - Question accordingly negatived.
Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)
I beg to move amendment 3, in clause 6, page 3, line 38, at end insert—
“(1A) The Secretary of State must, in particular, direct Great British Energy that any revenues generated from activities of Great British Energy in relation to resources located in Scotland must be invested back into projects located in Scotland.”
Good morning.
Stephen Flynn
I thank the shadow Minister for that warm welcome. What a delight it is to be back in Committee Room 10 on a Tuesday morning to discuss the Great British Energy Bill.
Last week, we all spoke at length about the massive opportunities in the renewable energy sector in the UK and particularly in Scotland. From fixed-bottom and floating offshore wind to green hydrogen, blue hydrogen, tidal and wave, pumped storage hydro, onshore wind and so forth, Scotland has a plethora of resources. I believe it was the chief executive officer of the Confederation of British Industry who said last week that Scotland’s renewables sector could unlock economic growth for the UK—imagine what it could do for Scotland’s economy.
It is important to reflect on the fact that over the past 50 or 60 years or so of North sea oil and gas, £450 billion has flowed from Scotland’s waters down to Whitehall. Can anyone seriously and reasonably argue that Scotland’s society reflects the magnitude of that wealth in our public environment, our infrastructure or our energy projects, which are in their infancy? They should be much further on, using the wealth that we had accumulated over many decades.
I do not want to see the same mistake repeated. I want to see the revenue generated from Scotland’s energy resources returned to Scotland so that we can ensure a society that is greener, more inclusive and fairer, and that delivers the continual economic growth that we so badly need. Scotland produces six times more gas than we consume, with some 28 to 36 GW of floating offshore wind coming down the pipeline—and that is before I get into all the other energies that are keen to come on stream should the Government finally put in the financial mechanisms to support them.
That affords Scotland the ability to have a competitive advantage, not to repeat what Ireland has done on corporation tax—we cannot all chase the same reduction, which would be a race to the bottom—but to create a competitive advantage that attracts big business to Scotland based on the energy that we consume. The prize is so great that we surely cannot miss out on it. I appreciate that Members around this Committee Room in the United Kingdom Parliament may not share my enthusiasm for Scotland to have its resources returned, but it is an important point to engage with.
Andrew Bowie
I am listening carefully to the right hon. Gentleman. Does he share my concern that—should the amendment be agreed to and should the Minister consent to any revenue generated from Scotland by GB Energy being returned to Scotland—the Scottish Government will not be competent enough to deal with it, given that in only six years they have squandered the £700 million generated from the ScotWind leasing round, which was returned directly to Scotland to plug gaps in their own Budget and was not invested in new energy projects, new technology or new infrastructure across Scotland?
Perran Moon (Camborne and Redruth) (Lab)
I am interested in the right hon. Gentleman’s premise. If Scotland is granted this amendment, surely the Welsh and the Cornish—in Cornwall we have onshore wind, offshore wind, geothermal, tidal, solar, tin and lithium, which are all critical to the UK’s move away from fossil fuels—will demand the same thing. The point is that it is GB Energy, not “Scotland Energy”.
Stephen Flynn
Would the hon. Gentleman like to clarify to the Committee whether he has just equated the nation of Scotland to Cornwall?
Perran Moon
Under national minority status—well, the right hon. Gentleman can draw his own conclusion.
Torcuil Crichton (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Lab)
I question whether amendment 3 would be beneficial to Scotland or give Scotland a competitive advantage, as has been claimed. I think it is deeply contrary to Scotland’s interests.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth has pointed out, we are not in separate energy markets. We live in one energy market, and that would not change even if we were divided into separate states, as Cornwall might well one day become. The transmission of energy does not respect borders. It is pretty obvious that it would make no sense to invest only in the national grid north of Berwick, while someone else invested in the national grid south of Berwick.
In my constituency of Na h-Eileanan an Iar, we have the glaring anomaly that the energy companies of other states—Norway, Ireland, France—are investing in renewable generation, but there is no British state energy company. That is what I hope will come into being under the Bill. At one time we had the British National Oil Company, but that fell when Mrs Thatcher came to power—on the back of SNP votes, of course.
The fact that other state energy companies are investing in my constituency points to another glaring inconsistency in the amendment. If we followed its principle, Ireland would invest only in Ireland, France only in France and Norway only in Norway, but we know that that is not how things work. Norway’s sovereign wealth fund does not just invest in Norway; it makes global investments. It is not built just on narrow investment or narrow nationalism within its own borders; Statoil, now Equinor, invests globally. I hope that in due course GB Energy will invest globally so that the profits serve every corner of the United Kingdom, not just one.
I can understand why the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South wants to talk just about hypothetical money and future money. As the shadow Minister pointed out, the Scottish Government have already squandered the money that they raised from renewables. The Scotland licences for offshore wind farming were sold off cheaply by the right hon. Member’s colleagues in Edinburgh, although they still got 10 times more than they thought they could. Astonishingly, the SNP was ready to sell all 14 leases for just £75 million, but fortunately the Crown Estate auction in England and Wales went first and raised more than £1 billion, which gave the Scottish Government pause for thought. They called in the consultants, multiplied the figure by 10 and managed to raise £750 million, which was still too little in comparison with what could have been raised. That £750 million has been frittered away; it has not gone into any sovereign wealth fund or been used for the future benefit of public expenditure on energy infrastructure.
It is all well and good to talk about hypothetical, sealed-off, insular energy markets, but that is just not how it is or how it will be. Scotland, together with the rest of the UK, can have a huge input into GB Energy, which the Bill will set up, and we can all gain through a common effort in the benefits of its evolution.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Michael Shanks)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dr Huq, and to see Committee members again. Having started the sitting with contributions from four Scottish MPs, we have gone through the greatest hits of Scottish politics, from the Thatcher Government to independence, Scotland’s wind and everything in between. It was a good way to start the Committee this morning.
Amendment 3 misunderstands not only the potential of Great British Energy, but how investments are already made in renewable projects in this country. The right hon. Member for Aberdeen South made a legitimate argument about the revenues from oil and gas over the past 60 years but, as hon. Members have already said, in more recent times and much closer to home, the legacy of the future of our energy story has already been squandered. What could have been almost £1 billion for our wealth fund to invest in future projects or in the inheritance of the country has already been spent to plug day-to-day spending. There is a danger that in such a short space of time we will repeat that oil and gas legacy in Scotland.
Great British Energy will invest in all four nations of the United Kingdom, and we are working closely with the devolved nations to make that a reality. Investments by Great British Energy will be made on the basis of the individual project, with decisions made at arm’s length from Government by an independent company. Clearly, with its leading role in renewables, Scotland will benefit from a great many of those investments, creating skilled, well-paid jobs in the process, with a genuine long-term investment in Scotland. That public investment is about crowding in private investment as well—and that is where I think the amendment misunderstands how the projects are delivered.
As much as the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues might talk about how it is Scotland’s wind and Scotland’s waves, the reality is that without having crowded in investment through a publicly owned energy company such as Great British Energy, every penny that has already been spent on constructing projects in Scotland to generate electricity from our natural resources has gone offshore to private companies and foreign publicly owned companies. We greatly welcome that investment in Scotland and in the UK, which will continue in the years to come, but the purpose of the Bill is to ensure that a publicly owned energy company, owned by our taxpayers, can have a stake as well. The Bill, through Great British Energy, will allow some of that wealth to be retained for the benefit of our citizens.
It is our intention that the profits generated by Great British Energy will either provide a direct return to the Exchequer, benefiting the UK taxpayer, or be channelled specifically into measures that benefit the public, such as investment in more clean energy infrastructure. It is about benefiting people right across the United Kingdom, recognising that the investment came in the first place from taxpayers right across the United Kingdom. For those reasons, the Government will not support the right hon. Member’s amendment 3.
Stephen Flynn
I am incredibly surprised at the stance that the Minister has adopted. I jest, of course: it is no more than I expected. However, I do take issue with some of the points that have been raised.
First, it does a great disservice to this Parliament and to the supposed Union of equals to try to diminish the status of Scotland as a nation and equate it to other areas within the UK. Secondly, I agree to an extent with the notion put across by the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar that energy is not constrained by borders, but under the watch of multiple United Kingdom Governments, energy-rich Scotland has been left with people living in fuel poverty. We have missed out repeatedly on the opportunities afforded to many other sovereign nations that have had control over their energy.
The hon. Gentleman also mentioned Equinor. The reality is that Equinor can advance its cause globally and seek to grow globally because it has benefited from its nation’s own natural resources, which is something that Scotland has never been able to do. The supine nature of Labour Members in Scotland continues, and people in Scotland will remember that in the days, weeks and years to come.
Conservative and Labour Members have referred to Scotland and to the supposed squandering of resources. How dare they, when Scotland’s Parliament has had to face up to 14 years of austerity from this place?
Stephen Flynn
If they had any desire to support Scotland’s cause, they would stand up against that and be truthful with the people of Scotland in that context. The Minister expresses dismay at that notion, but I am sure he was elected on a platform of fighting Tory austerity. Why is it different when it is Scotland?
Amendment 3 would ensure that Scotland benefits from its resources. That should not be too much to ask in this place. If the Minister and hon. Members around this Committee Room believe in respecting Scotland, they should agree to it, because it is the right thing to do.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Andrew Bowie
I beg to move amendment 20, in clause 6, page 3, line 38, at end insert—
“(1A) (a) The Secretary of State must give a specific direction to Great British Energy that it must, within six months of the date of Royal Assent to this Act, report to the Secretary of State on the projected cost of fulfilling its strategic priorities under Clause 5 in accordance with its objects under Clause 3.”
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dr Huq, and to be back debating Great British Energy. Given that Margaret Thatcher has already been referenced this morning, we should appreciate that her legacy is the very reason we are standing here today, because she was the first world leader, at the 1989 UN General Assembly, to raise the prospect of irretrievable damage to the atmosphere, ocean and Earth itself from climate change. Had it not been for her global leadership in so many areas, we would not be debating the issues we are today, nor would the United Kingdom be the world leader in combating climate change we claim it to be.
Michael Shanks
I know that the Conservative party is in shifting political sands at the moment, but I was not expecting this morning to lead with such a full-throated defence of Thatcher—I do not think she is in the running for the leadership of the party.
Michael Shanks
Some things are outwith even the hon. Gentleman’s powers.
There are a number of reasons why we will resist amendment 20. First—I have made this point a number of times—the Bill is about making the minimum possible provisions to support the establishment of the company. Great British Energy will be operationally independent and, although directed at key points by the Secretary of State, its financial responsibilities will be the same as any other company, subject to all the regulations and laws that any company in this country has to face.
The amendment would introduce unnecessary detail into the Bill. As the hon. Gentleman would have agreed in previous Bills that he was involved in, this is an unnecessary amendment, and he would be making that exact argument if he was standing where I am today. As a publicly owned company, Great British Energy will be accountable through regular reporting to the Department, and its annual accounts and reports will be laid before Parliament so that Parliament can see them in detail. As a publicly owned company, it will also be subject to HM Treasury’s value-for-money guidelines. Like all existing public finance institutions, its investments will be subject to the usual safeguards and risk assessments to minimise the risk to taxpayers.
As I said in our last sitting, the purpose of clause 6 is for the Secretary of State to give direction to the company only in the most urgent or unforeseen circumstances. It is not for day-to-day operational reasons; I gave the example last time of national security issues. The power is meant to be used sparingly to ensure that Great British Energy has the space it requires to fulfil its role and deliver its strategic priorities. The amendment would change the intention of the clause, which is one reason we will resist it today.
As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Secretary of State will set Great British Energy’s strategic priorities to ensure that it remains aligned to current Government policy and strategy. It is therefore appropriate that we use clause 5 to set Great British Energy’s strategic priorities and objectives, not clause 6.
I assure the hon. Gentleman that the Secretary of State, rightly, has ambitions for Great British Energy—as the whole Government do and as I hope the whole House does. Those achievable objectives will be achieved through the funding envelope set for it by Parliament, backed by £8.3 billion of new money over the lifetime of this Parliament, and working in partnership with the private sector, local authorities and communities to spread skilled jobs and investment across the country.
Great British Energy’s aim is to become a financially sustainable, self-financing organisation in the long term, reinvesting its profits in the Treasury or into new projects. Therefore, I assure the hon. Gentleman that Great British Energy will be held accountable for the delivery of its objectives through the usual mechanisms. For those reasons, the Government will not support his amendment today and I hope that he withdraws it.
Andrew Bowie
I am sad not to hear a full-throated defence of Mrs Thatcher’s legacy when it comes to climate change—maybe the Minister is more of a “Hug a husky”, “Vote blue, go green” kind of guy in the Cameron mould.
Andrew Bowie
Well, that was a long time ago. Although I do not agree with all those arguments for not accepting the amendment, I will not press it to a vote. We will explore those points more deeply, however, on Report. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Andrew Bowie
I beg to move amendment 21, in clause 6, page 3, line 38, at end insert—
“(1A) (a) The Secretary of State must give a specific direction to Great British Energy that it must report to the Secretary of State on—
(i) Great British Energy’s in-year rate of return on investment, and
(ii) a forecast of the following year’s expected rate of return on investment.
(b) A report under paragraph (a) must be made within two years of the date of Royal Assent to this Act and annually thereafter.
(c) The Secretary of State must lay a report made under paragraph (a) before Parliament.”
Amendment 21 would require Great British Energy to provide an annual report to Parliament on its annual rate of return and investment, and a projection for the following year’s expected rate of return on investment. We heard from the Minister that every project will see a return—we heard it on the Floor of the House—and, as discussed under amendments 11 and 12, GB Energy will drive household bills down by £300. In line with that, it would be useful to include in the legislation a direction for GB Energy to report to the Secretary of State on its in-year rate of return on investments, and a forecast of the following year’s expected rate of return on investment.
We heard assurances from the Government that GB Energy will return lower bills for households, and indeed, as I said, that every project will see a return. As it is a company that intends to invest in and de-risk projects in rising new clean energy technologies, it would be useful to see the return on investment from those projects—statutorily, in the Bill. I imagine that the Minister will have no issue in accepting this amendment, given his confidence in the financial success of GB Energy, and indeed his confidence that every project will generate a return.
Michael Shanks
I thank the hon. Gentleman for succinctly introducing his amendment; I will be succinct in my response. In debates about previous amendments, I made the points—I will not repeat them—that we should not add unnecessary burdens to the Bill or use the power in clause 6 for different purposes. I know he takes that argument seriously. Amendment 21 significantly widens clause 6 from its intention, which is why we will not support it.
I reiterate, however, that Great British Energy will operate not through some extra-legal mechanism, but in the exact same way as every other company in the UK, and will be responsible in the usual way, under the Companies Act 2006, for the presentation of its accounts. In addition to filing those accounts, financial information, annual reports and so on with Companies House, they will of course be laid before Parliament, and I will personally make sure that the hon. Gentleman receives a copy the moment that it is printed—he can hold me to that—so that, quite rightly, he can scrutinise them.
It is important to say that the day-to-day financial management of the company will be in line with Government regulations. The point of setting up Great British Energy as an independent company is that it will have an expert fiduciary board that will scrutinise the accounts in the usual manner. For those reasons, we do not think that amendment 21 is necessary.
Andrew Bowie
While not accepting all of the Minister’s arguments, I look forward to him personally presenting me with the financial returns. I will not press amendment 21 to a vote, but we will obviously explore the issues in more detail when the Bill returns to the Floor of the House. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Andrew Bowie
I beg to move amendment 22, in clause 6, page 3, line 38, at end insert—
“(1A) The Secretary of State must give a specific direction to Great British Energy that it must take all reasonable steps to satisfy itself at the time of any investment in renewable energy infrastructure that connection to the National Grid will be made in time for energy produced from the relevant investment asset coming onstream.”
Amendment 22 would require Great British Energy to take all reasonable steps to ensure that access to the national grid is ready for any energy infrastructure invested in by Great British Energy. The great grid upgrade is, without a doubt, a necessary component of our journey to net zero by 2050. Currently, new energy infrastructure such as wind turbines and solar farms—the clean energy-generating technology that we need to invest in in this country—has a significant wait time for grid connection, as do many other projects.
That is why, when in government, we commissioned the Nick Winser review to set out recommendations on how to reduce that timeframe. We accepted every single one of the recommendations and the advice on all 43 areas to ensure that the continued work to drive down connection times was accelerated. Despite the work we initiated in government by accepting those recommendations, the timeframe for obtaining grid connections for new projects can be as long as 10 years, so a project without grid connectivity will potentially not come online until the mid-2030s—well beyond the new Government.
Ms Polly Billington (East Thanet) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dr Huq. I am staggered that the hon. Gentleman is talking about the national grid as though the previous Government—his Government —had not been in power for the last 14 years and did nothing to transform the national grid to support the renewable energy that is essential for the country’s prosperity. All the failures in the national grid system, and all that backlog, are because of the failure to grip the problems with the national grid that happened on his Government’s watch.
Andrew Bowie
I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention, but I think she is being slightly unfair. When I was Networks Minister, we commissioned and accepted every one of Nick Winser’s recommendations on how we could speed up connection times, improve the national grid, build new infrastructure and ensure that the queueing system was brought into a much better shape than we found it in when we came into office in 2010—
Stephen Flynn
In fairness to Committee members who may not have been here, perhaps the shadow Minister will remind us why he chose to step down as the Minister with responsibility for the grid.
Andrew Bowie
When I was moved to the position of Renewables Minister, it was impossible for me to carry on also being the Networks Minister. It is clear what the right hon. Gentleman is driving at: namely, the situation in the country today, where many communities feel under siege because they are hosting this new energy infrastructure—[Interruption.] The Minister laughs at the words “under siege”, but they do feel that.
Communities in this country face the prospect of new pylons, new energy infrastructure, new substations and battery storage facilities being built in the countryside. That industrialisation of the countryside is the reason that we proposed a review to investigate the costs of other technology that would not be so invasive of their communities, their landscape and the land in which they live and work. That is why we did that, and that is what I was about to speak about, but the right hon. Gentleman provoked me into coming to it earlier than I had planned.
We need to get this right. We need to take the country with us and have a discussion with the country about consent and consultation. It is about doing things not to communities but with and for communities.
Torcuil Crichton
The hon. Gentleman has almost made my point for me. Through GB Energy, communities will have a share and an investment. We will all share in the wealth of wind and in the grid connections that will come through this company.
Andrew Bowie
I am delighted to hear that the hon. Gentleman has such confidence in GB Energy’s ability to be the problem-solving fix-all. I have my concerns that that will not be the case and that the many issues we face—from grid connectivity to the targets that we in government set and the building of new infrastructure—will not be resolved by the creation of this company, given that the capital expended to it is so low in comparison with other state energy companies.
Torcuil Crichton
I agree with the hon. Gentleman that none of that will happen without the involvement, commitment, backing and consent of communities. Through GB Energy, that is what we will achieve.
Andrew Bowie
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. We must agree to disagree on this point. Of course, we want to see this effort succeed; we just have our doubts that it will.
Future renewable energy projects face huge connectivity challenges that the Government must be prepared for, but as I said, there is another equally significant challenge: the one facing communities. In my constituency, communities are expected to host hundreds of kilometres of new large pylon infrastructure, but the burden for new infrastructure falls particularly heavily on north-east Scotland, the north of England and East Anglia.
My key points are about the need to gain consent from communities, to reduce the burden where possible, and to have community benefits. We need to bring communities with us; there needs to be a conversation. If we are ever going to get to net zero, we need to stop alienating the communities hosting this infrastructure on behalf of the nation by imposing, rather than seeking, consent.
Ms Billington
The hon. Gentleman might have been reading my speeches from my career before I was elected, because I have been campaigning for a long time to improve the consent of and support for communities, so that they get some actual benefit from the investment that we will need to make in the renewable energy that we are talking about. That would require a change to the planning rules, which has not happened over the last 14 years, and a proper land use framework that involves energy. That is a bit of a diversion from the Bill, which is specifically about setting up a company to be able to generate electricity, but I am keen to hear the kind of rhetoric that we have heard from the hon. Gentleman in future when we talk about the transformation of the national grid and energy market reform, which would reduce bills for consumers.
The Chair
Order. The Clerk is reminding me that interventions should be brief—I remember being told that myself when I sat on a Public Bill Committee at exactly the same point in 2015.
Andrew Bowie
Thank you, Dr Huq. When the hon. Member for East Thanet has a spare moment or is struggling to sleep at night, I advise her to go back and review the Hansard of our contributions to the Energy Bill Committee in the last Parliament, during which we debated such points at length.
Andrew Bowie
It was inspirational. The Minister is absolutely right; they were inspirational speeches. Indeed, we talked about those issues at great length. When in government, I was proud to launch a consultation on community benefits, for example, which has still not been implemented. Although it is outside the scope of our discussion, it would be interesting to get an update from the Government on when they will bring forward the community benefits package and if any changes will be made to the package unveiled by us last November.
I return to the discussion on consultation and consent. In an attempt to reduce the burden on communities, we pledged to have a review into the presumption for overhead lines and to examine all other options that would be cost-comparable so as not to inflict that huge burden on communities.
Stephen Flynn
I am listening closely to the shadow Minister, and I am a little confused. On the one hand, he seems to be in favour of making sure that the grid capacity is there; on the other hand, he seems to be sticking up barriers to that grid capacity coming on stream and using terms like “reviews” and “consultations” that have no appropriate timescale attributed to them. What does he want to happen?
Andrew Bowie
Both can be achieved. Of course we need to improve the national grid and grid connectivity times. When I was in a ministerial position, not a day went past when a colleague did not come up to me on behalf of an individual, company or organisation that had been given grid connectivity times of seven, eight, nine or 10 years, and sometimes even more. That is an impossible place for the country to be in. It is preventing inward investment and holding back the economy, so we need to improve the national grid, review the queuing system and improve connectivity times, but we need to do it in a way that brings the country with us and does not inflict misery on the communities that are being asked to host this huge infrastructure on behalf of the rest of the nation. That is why we need to get it right and examine all the available options. We need to examine whether undergrounding or offshoring could be cost-comparable or preferable to overhead lines when we move forward.
Stephen Flynn
The shadow Minister is being generous with his time, as always. What sort of timeframe would he associate with that level of engagement going forward? He seems to lack certainty on what that new technology would be. Can he advise us of the cost savings that would go to the consumer from these new technologies, which I am not aware of and do not think that any Member in this room is aware of?
Andrew Bowie
It is precisely because we do not have all the answers that we commissioned that review in the very last days of the last Parliament, which we committed to in our manifesto and which sadly has been abandoned by the Labour Government.
It should be incumbent on Great British Energy to take into account the challenges that we all acknowledge we face to ensure that the investments that it undertakes give the best value for money on behalf of British taxpayers, whose money is invested in the funds for the company. It should also ensure that each project has grid connectivity available at the right time so that it is a worthwhile investment and returns can be realised as soon as possible from each investment.
Michael Shanks
I have to say that of all the amendments before the Committee, I find this one utterly extraordinary. The shadow Minister’s amendment says that Great British Energy
“must take all reasonable steps to satisfy itself at the time of any investment in…infrastructure that connection to the National Grid will be made in time for energy produced from the relevant investment asset coming onstream.”
The recognition, after 14 years, that dealing with the issues with connections to the national grid should somehow be important is extraordinary. For the hon. Gentleman to wake up this morning, just a few months after leaving government, and decide that fixing this problem is a massive priority is quite something.
I am genuinely concerned by some of the language that we have heard today. The shadow Minister spoke, quite rightly, about Cameronian support for the climate. I wonder whether the Conservative party, after such a short time, ever takes a look at itself and wonders whether the rhetoric that it uses about the mechanisms we are going to use to tackle the climate crisis is in the right place. I know we have some net zero sceptics in the running to lead the party, but it is quite extraordinary to say in one breath that there are huge connectivity challenges for the country and that communities are “under siege”.
Harriet Cross (Gordon and Buchan) (Con)
I understand that in some constituencies this might not seem to be an issue, but in the north-east of Scotland it is a massive issue. For example, I have a town in my constituency called Kintore, which is next to a place called Leylodge. It is getting a 3 GW hydrogen plant next to an extended substation, with at least four or five battery plants and all the new pylons coming in to feed that. If the residents of Leylodge, where there are about 40 houses, and Kintore, where they number around 4,500—and similarly those in New Deer, up in the north—do not feel under siege, how do they feel?
Michael Shanks
I think that doubling down on the language is not helpful either, but I will come back to both those points.
I recognise the importance of the point about communities and a more strategic approach to infrastructure to ensure a balance. That is why we have commissioned the National Energy System Operator to look at the strategic spatial energy plan, which is important in how we look at energy in a strategic way. To say that communities are under siege is not the right language. This is nationally important infrastructure.
The Opposition do not support Great British Energy, but as my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar said, Great British Energy is one mechanism whereby communities can benefit from infrastructure where they are not benefiting at the moment.
Perran Moon
Does the Minister agree that the people of Cornwall are ready, willing and able to take any renewable energy opportunities we possibly can?
Michael Shanks
My hon. Friend never misses an opportunity to mention Cornwall, but let us not relitigate our earlier argument.
There are huge opportunities. The hon. Member for Gordon and Buchan made the important point that there are certain parts of the country, particularly in the north of Scotland, where for obvious reasons there are a number of wind projects, and we need to look at the infrastructure that comes with that. We want to ensure we build the nationally important infrastructure to deal with the connections issue that the shadow Minister rightly raises, but we also need to recognise the need for cohesion in planning to make sure that there are not some of the issues that we have seen in other parts of the UK, where a number of projects have come on stream over time rather than being planned coherently.
Finally, on community involvement, the point about consent in dealings with communities is important. We want to take some of the previous Government’s work on consulting on community benefits—we will say more on this in the coming months—to make sure that there is genuine community benefit in hosting not just energy generation infrastructure, but network infrastructure, which will be critical. Nothing that we have said runs roughshod over the planning and consenting process, which will remain for communities.
Andrew Bowie
The Minister is being typically generous with his time. He says that nothing will ride roughshod over the planning and consent regime and allowing communities to have their say. Am I to take it from that that there are no plans afoot to resolve the Scottish planning and consenting issues that remain as a result of its being governed by the Electricity Act 1989 while the rest of the United Kingdom is governed by the Planning Act 2008 on electricity, which means that the automatic right to public inquiry remains in Scotland? Is the Minister assuring the Committee and me that that right will remain and that he has no plans to resolve that issue?
Michael Shanks
The question of balance, which I was just about to come to, is important. The right to a public inquiry can be triggered by a much smaller number of people in Scotland than in the rest of the UK, so there have been real issues: communities do not generally have a view, so individuals or campaign organisations trigger public inquiries. We are looking at the consenting regime, as I think the hon. Gentleman’s Government was, to bring balance to this.
Balance is key. The Government, from the Prime Minister down, have been clear that we will need to build this infrastructure, which is nationally important for all the reasons that the shadow Minister set out. That is why the amendment is so extraordinary. The shadow Minister said that we need to tackle the huge connectivity challenge—I wrote that down—and the Bill is the mechanism for doing that. Balance is key: my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar made it clear that we want communities to benefit from having a stake in what Great British Energy will deliver, but it is important that we get on with building this infrastructure. For those reasons, we will not support the amendment.
Andrew Bowie
Right hon. and hon. Members have made some disparaging comments about the Conservative legacy on our climate, but I remind them that we halved our carbon emissions faster than any other G7 nation, built the first floating offshore wind farms in the world, ended coal for power generation and led the world in so many other ways, including developing new technologies and delivering the very successful COP26 conference in Glasgow. It is because our views on this are so aligned that I think the amendment would sit well within the Bill.
Josh MacAlister (Whitehaven and Workington) (Lab)
I think the shadow Minister is a secret supporter of the Bill, not a true believer in his amendment. In an interview that he gave to Politico earlier this month, he said that there were “mistakes” in the roll-out of mini-nuclear reactors, because it was a slow process, and he called the infrastructure delays facing the UK “absurd”. I think he knows that the Bill will help to speed those things up and that his false dichotomy between the Government and communities will not really pose a risk to projects.
Andrew Bowie
It is a matter of public record that I think we should have gone faster on small modular reactors, and I hope that this Government pick up the pace. On the hon. Gentleman’s other point, my concern is that the creation of GB Energy will get in the way of delivering our objectives and shared goals and supporting new technologies. We oppose its creation because we think it will actually be a block on getting where we need to more quickly.
Andrew Bowie
I do. That is why I would like to press the amendment to a vote.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Michael Shanks
I will not detain the Committee long, as we have already discussed aspects of the clause in our debates on the various helpful amendments tabled by the shadow Minister.
Clause 6 will ensure that there is a mechanism in place purely for any unforeseen or urgent circumstances that may arise. For example, it could be used if the Secretary of State considers it necessary to give Great British Energy some kind of direction, in the interests of national security or otherwise, to respond to something in the public interest. This is about preparing for all eventualities, as we would expect of the Government.
It is important to know that the power is very similar to that set out in other legislation of this kind. For example, it was included in the UK Infrastructure Bank Act 2023 and the Energy Act 2023 for Great British Nuclear. Finally, I hope the Committee will be reassured by the requirement in the clause for the Secretary of State to consult both Great British Energy and other appropriate stakeholders before issuing a direction. To ensure public transparency, as we would expect, any directions given to Great British Energy will be published and laid before Parliament. I commend the clause to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 6 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 7
Annual accounts and reports
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Michael Shanks
Clause 7 has fairly standard wording for a Bill of this kind and for a company of this kind. Under section 441 of the Companies Act 2006, the directors of any company—Great British Energy will of course be one such—are required to deliver annual reports and accounts. The clause simply requires that Great British Energy deliver its annual reports and accounts to the Secretary of State, in addition to filing them with Companies House, and that the Secretary of State lay a copy before Parliament in due course.
It is common practice for a company to publish its annual reports and accounts on its website. They will also be available on the Companies House website in the usual way. None the less, the clause will ensure that Parliament receives the annual report and accounts directly so that it can scrutinise them and assure itself that the company is fulfilling its duties. I commend the clause to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 7 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 8
Extent, commencement and short title
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Michael Shanks
I am hoping that at some point someone will want to take part in a debate, to save the Committee from hearing only from me.
Clause 8 sets out the extent of the Bill, which is important, and its commencement. The Act will come into force immediately on its passing, reflecting the fact that setting it up has been one of the Government’s key priorities, which is why we commenced the process and introduced the Bill to the House within our first 100 days.
It is important to us that the Bill reach the full territorial extent of the United Kingdom and that it benefit citizens in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. We have shared net zero targets across the whole UK. Clearly the devolved Administrations have different responsibilities for different aspects of energy policy—it is generally reserved, but in Northern Ireland it is transferred—so the role of Great British Energy will be slightly different in different parts of the UK, but it is important to say that the investments that Great British Energy makes can still drive deployment, create jobs, boost energy independence and ensure that taxpayers, bill payers and communities reap the benefits of clean, secure, home-grown energy across the UK.
I thank the devolved Administrations, who have engaged with me since my appointment as Minister on the Bill. We have had detailed and helpful conversations with my counterparts in all the devolved Governments across the UK. I thank them for how they have engaged in our discussions: they have been supportive of Great British Energy, recognising the benefits that it brings to all parts of the UK, while clearly advocating on behalf of their own Governments. It is important that we continue that. My commitment to them and to the Committee is that we will continue the process after the Bill passes to ensure that we have a company that delivers for all the people of this United Kingdom. I thank them for their constructive and collaborative approach. I commend the clause to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 8 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
New Clause 2
Review of effective delivery
“(1) The Secretary of State must appoint an independent person to carry out reviews of the effectiveness of Great British Energy in—
(a) delivering its objects under section 3,
(b) meeting its strategic priorities under section 5, and
(c) complying with any directions given under section 6.
(2) After each review, the independent person must—
(a) prepare a report of the review, and
(b) submit the report to the Secretary of State,
as soon as is reasonably practicable after the completion of the review.
(3) The independent person must submit to the Secretary of State—
(a) the first report under this section within the period of 12 months beginning on the day on which this Act comes into force, and
(b subsequent reports at intervals of no more than 12 months thereafter.
(4) On receiving the report, the Secretary of State must, as soon as is reasonably practicable in each case—
(a) publish the report,
(b) lay a copy of the report before Parliament, and
(c) prepare and lay before Parliament a response to the report’s findings.
(5) In this section, references to an ‘independent person’ are to a person who appears to the Secretary of State to be independent of—
(a) the Secretary of State, and
(b) Great British Energy.”—(Andrew Bowie.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
Andrew Bowie
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
The Secretary of State is establishing a new state-run body—for the record, that is something that I oppose—of which the energy sector has many. For example, we have the UK Infrastructure Bank, an organisation that has many similarities with Great British Energy. As with UKIB, the Bill aims to give statutory force to the company’s objectives. However, unlike the legislation for UKIB, the Bill does not endeavour to create statutory forms of transparency, accountability and governance for the firm, so it is concerning that the Great British Energy Bill gives the Secretary of State sole powers of direction. We cannot possibly think why that would appeal to the Secretary of State, so my new clause 2 would ensure a level of independence in the governance of Great British Energy.
The Minister said on Thursday that Great British Energy would be “operationally independent”, but it lacks specific, key components to ensure that. Indeed, it seems that a significant level of direction lies with the Secretary of State. I suggest to the Minister that accepting the new clause to introduce a requirement for an independent person to review the effectiveness of Great British Energy in delivering its objects would ensure its independence and transparency.
There is a precedent in the legislation on the UK Infrastructure Bank for the designation of an independent person to carry out reviews into the effectiveness of GB Energy. If that does not happen, we are concerned that any review of its effectiveness may be perceived externally as Great British Energy simply marking its own homework. If the UK Infrastructure Bank has appointed an independent person to conduct reviews of its effectiveness, why are the Government so reluctant to set out the same standards for Great British Energy?
Michael Shanks
I thank the shadow Minister for his attempt to add an additional clause to the Bill. I will speak briefly about why we do not support new clause 2, but I agree with him on the importance of ensuring that Great British Energy be accountable, transparent and clear about how it is delivering on its objectives. We absolutely want to see that as well.
We believe that the Bill is in a strong place at the moment. It will, of course, utilise all the mechanisms already in place for other companies, including publicly owned companies, through its annual reports and accounts. It will provide regular updates on its work, meeting its objectives and the stewardship of the public funds that it is given. It is important to recognise that the reports, accounts, other information and directions that have been given will be laid before Parliament and will therefore be readily available to hon. Members. In the same way as any other company operating in the UK, Great British Energy will undergo external audit of its accounts, providing a further level of assurance. It will be expected to publish its own strategic plan on how it will deliver its objectives, which will be laid before Parliament.
I do not think it proportionate to add another mechanism for an annual independent review. I note the shadow Minister’s point about the UK Infrastructure Bank, but the rhythm of independent review was that it would happen once the bank had been operating for seven years and would be repeated at intervals of no more than five years. I do not think the new clause proportionate to what was introduced in the UK Infrastructure Bank Act 2023.
In the light of what my hon. Friend the Member for Whitehaven and Workington described as the shadow Minister’s secret support for the Bill—he doth protest a little too much in saying that he opposes it—I would hate to suggest that the new clause was some kind of mechanism to stymie the action of Great British Energy. However, the frequent cadence that the shadow Minister proposes for the review would considerably interrupt the work of the company in actually delivering. It would be under almost continuous review, which does not seem proportionate or effective for a company that we aim to move in a nimble and speedy way to deliver for the British people. I would rather Great British Energy got on with delivering for the British people on its important mission to deliver projects to benefit all the United Kingdom. We will not support the new clause.
Andrew Bowie
I am disappointed that the Minister will not accept the new clause. We have some concerns about transparency and accountability, which we will explore further on Report. I will not push new clause 2 to a vote today—not least because I seem to have lost my Whip, but also because we wish to explore the issue on the Floor of the House. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 3
Directors: appointment and tenure
“Great British Energy must secure that its articles of association provide that—
(a) Great British Energy is to have at least five and no more than fourteen directors;
(b) the chair of Great British Energy’s board, Great British Energy’s chief executive officer and the non-executive directors are to be appointed by the Secretary of State;
(c) the Board is to appoint one or more directors to be responsible for ensuring that the Board considers the interests of the appropriate national authorities when making decisions;
(d) the period of a non-executive director’s appointment is not to exceed four years, or such shorter period as may be specified in the terms on which the director is appointed;
(e) a person may be appointed as a non-executive director no more than two times;
(f) a person ceases to be a non-executive director as soon as—
(i) the person ceases to be a director by virtue of any provision of the Companies Act 2006 or is prohibited from being a director by law,
(ii) the person becomes bankrupt (in relation to England and Wales and Northern Ireland) or the person’s estate has been sequestrated (in relation to Scotland),
(iii) a registered medical practitioner who is treating the person gives a written opinion to Great British Energy stating that the person has become physically or mentally incapable of acting as a director and is likely to remain so for more than three months, or the person has resigned as non-executive director in accordance with notification which the person has given to Great British Energy.”—(Andrew Bowie.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
Andrew Bowie
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
On governance, new clause 3 would require Great British Energy to appoint between five and 14 directors, alongside a chair of the board, a chief executive officer and non-executive directors. Like new clause 2, it would bring checks and balances to the governance of Great British Energy to ensure that the powers of direction do not rest too heavily on the Secretary of State. Like new clause 2, it has a precedent in legislation: section 7 of the UK Infrastructure Bank Act 2023 sets out precisely the same requirements for the appointment and tenure of its directors. I therefore commend new clause 3 to the Committee.
Before I sit down, Dr Huq, may I take the opportunity to thank you and Sir Roger for your chairship? I thank the Clerks, the Doorkeepers, the Minister for his time, and all right hon. and hon. Members for their attendance.
I also thank the officials in the Box. I had the distinct privilege of serving in the Department for just shy of two years. The Minister is very lucky to have such an able team of civil servants supporting him in his work; it was a genuine privilege to work alongside them. Although I do not think that Great British Energy will succeed in its objectives, I wish them the very best in endeavouring to set this company up.
Michael Shanks
I was going to end on an argument about why the Conservative party is in such a rut, but the hon. Gentleman has changed the tone completely. I feel lost with my political attacks, so I will move swiftly on to why new clause 3 is not necessary.
I will not detain the Committee long. The argument is clear that there are quite established governance arrangements in place for companies of this type, and it is not necessary for primary legislation to make provision on the detail of the board of directors. There are a number of very well-established governance documents that set the course for this. The UK corporate governance code published by the Financial Reporting Council sets out best practice, to which Great British Energy will conform.
The interim chair Juergen Maier, whom we met last week, is in place to start up the company. Recruitment is under way for other key posts, and the permanent chair and the non-executive directors will be recruited in due course. The governance code on public appointments will make it clear how those will be carried out; they will be regulated by the Commissioner for Public Appointments. Although I recognise the shadow Minister’s legitimate points about transparency and accountability, I think his new clause unnecessary.
Rather than giving my prepared remarks criticising the Conservatives’ position, let me gently say that I am grateful that in the three days on which the Committee has met, the shadow Minister has moved closer and closer to voting Aye. I am confident that by Report he will be in the right Lobby. I welcome that move.
I genuinely thank all hon. Members for serving on the Committee; it has been a pleasure. Dr Huq, I thank you and Sir Roger for your stewardship of the Committee, along with everyone who has been involved in delivering its sittings. I also thank all our witnesses who gave their time freely last Tuesday. It was quite a lengthy session, but they gave important evidence—not least because every single witness confirmed how important Great British Energy is to delivering our mission to move to clean power by 2030.
As it has been three months now that I have had the privilege of having this job, I will finish by echoing the shadow Minister’s points, which were heartfelt, genuine and absolutely right, about the exceptional skill and qualifications of civil servants in what was once the Department of Energy and Climate Change. A change of Government is a considerable thing for the civil service, but it has moved at pace, as the Government have. I give real credit to the civil servants who make things happen and who so often do not get the credit for their hard work. I thank them all, and I thank hon. Members for their consideration. I do not support new clause 3, but I thank everyone for their time today.
Andrew Bowie
I will not push new clause 3 to a vote. We will discuss the issue further on Report, but I will not detain the Committee any longer. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
The Chair
Thank you, everyone, for your patience with me and Sir Roger in the first Bill Committee of this Parliament.
Bill to be reported, without amendment.