Great British Energy Bill

(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)

Committee stage
Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I really cannot disagree with anything noble Lords have said in this debate, although I do not believe we need an amendment. I utterly agree that nuclear power is essential to the future; it provides the essential baseload; it is safe, secure and reliable. We have great opportunities in the UK to develop nuclear energy and the supply chain, even more than we have now. Obviously, Rolls-Royce, from a UK company point of view, has great potential.

We are keeping a very close eye on Hinkley Point C; the operational date that has been given for the first unit between 2029 and 2031 is very crucial. We are working very hard to get Sizewell C to final investment decision in the next few months. We have the SMR programme, and I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, about the importance and value of the work of Great British Nuclear. We are regularly engaged with GBN, and I pay tribute to the great work that its chair and chief executive are doing.

I have met a number of companies who are very interested in developing AMRs. We have all seen the experience of companies such as Amazon, in the US, linking small modular reactors and advanced modular reactors with data centres; clearly, we wish the UK to be very much part of that. In terms of the UK’s growth agenda, if we combine military and civil nuclear defence requirements, we know that the nuclear skills task force has now estimated that we need about 40,000 extra people in the industry by 2030, and moving on with even more people by the 2040s. This is at once a challenge and a huge opportunity, because the careers that are offered in the nuclear industry are secure and well paid, and it is a very exciting industry to go into.

The noble Lord, Lord Offord, quoted figures from the IEA. Although we have seen a global downturn in nuclear energy, it is right to now talk about a renaissance. At international gatherings, it is pretty clear that there are countries coming back to nuclear, as we are, and other countries that wish to develop nuclear energy for the first time. This is very encouraging; we know that, in terms of popular opinion, there is a much more positive attitude among the public towards nuclear energy.

In saying I do not believe that the amendment is necessary, I do very much embrace the comments of the noble Lords and I can assure them that, in the department, we see nuclear energy as having an essential role for the future.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the Minister for his clarity and unequivocal support of nuclear, and, indeed, for his reply to my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford, who asked a specific question in relation to the GB Energy Bill. GB Energy can, if required, participate in nuclear, but the clear understanding is that discussions are ongoing with GB Nuclear. So I would encourage the Government to continue to clarify what that will look like and how it will be funded going forward.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

If I may come back on that, the noble Lord may have seen that the energy Select Committee had a hearing at which the chair of Great British Energy and then the chair of Great British Nuclear gave evidence. It is clear from what they said that we will have no difficulty at all in establishing a co-operative relationship.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

That is noted. I thank the Minister. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

Can I ask my noble friend why the new power station in Somerset is costing four times as much as an identical one in South Korea? Surely this will add to energy costs, not detract from them.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I am not sure which “noble friend” that was aimed at, but I will have a go if the noble Lord likes. I was at the department when we started talking about Hinkley many years ago. Two or three things happened. First, it took an awfully long time to come to a final investment decision. Secondly, EDF thought it could bring a design model from France and place it in Hinkley Point C without having to make design changes. The reality was that it had to make thousands of design changes because of the requirements of the regulatory system in the UK.

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[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

I hope the Committee will forgive me. I was slow on the uptake and should have preceded my noble friend instead of following him. I think doing so is legitimate within the rules of Committee.

I very much support my noble friend Lord Ashcombe’s amendment. The Minister has already made the point that I have the greatest possible reservations about net zero. This is not because I have some tremendous hang-up and that I want to pollute the atmosphere and make the place less liveable than it might otherwise be, but because we are now reaching the point on net zero where the costs are starting to come in and getting very severe indeed. That is why we have to think very closely and carefully about where we go from here.

We have done an awful lot to lower our net emissions into the atmosphere, largely by closing down vast areas of our generation industry, in which coal-fired power stations have now been phased out almost completely. What has happened? We think we are setting a wonderful example to the rest of the world but our net emissions come down and world emissions go up. That is hardly surprising, because the Chinese and the Indians are still building coal-fired power stations. They account for massive amounts of coal-fired energy, which keeps their energy prices low and makes them very competitive with the rest of the world. Are we really going to see a change of heart from China and India? Will they suddenly say, “No, no, we’ve been polluting the atmosphere too much and we must now start cleaning everything up and working to net zero”? I do not think they will. They want to keep their competitive position.

That is why it is so essential, to refer back to my noble friend’s amendment, that we continue to accept that we will need oil and gas for much longer than we might originally have thought. The cost of saying we will not explore for any more oil and gas in the North Sea is absolutely massive in terms of jobs for people living in Scotland. The pigeons are starting to come home on all this. That is one of the reasons why I have the greatest possible reservations about driving on towards this net-zero target: the costs are becoming prohibitive. Our energy prices are already higher than almost everybody in Europe. This will cost us jobs and competitiveness in the world generally for years to come.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, one of the joys of debating energy is that, on every occasion, we come back to the substance of the whole argument about energy and where we are going. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ashcombe, for stimulating such an interesting discussion. The noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, in a sense, has brought this into the open. Clearly, it was his Government who signed up to the legislation on net zero by 2050. The last Government, as much as we do, saw the huge risks involved in climate change and the need to take action.

The international position is that, despite what the noble Lord says, the fastest growth in use of renewable energy is occurring in China. The International Energy Agency indicated in its recent renewable energy report that we will see a 2.7 times increase in the use of renewables globally between now and 2030. So, there is a global movement towards clean power and net zero. Yes, it is going at different paces, but we believe the UK can gain great advantage by taking a leadership role. The National Energy System Operator—NESO—has shown that there is a pathway to clean power by 2030. We are now committed to taking that and turning it into an action plan, which I hope we will be able to publish very shortly.

I would not deny that North Sea oil and gas still have important roles to play, and I am of course listening to what noble Lords say about the tax situation and proposals, and the investment issue. Clearly, the Government are in very close discussions with the industry. Our aim is an orderly transition, and that is what we mean to achieve. So we clearly see the value of what happens in the North Sea, and we need it to continue to provide supplies to the UK in the years ahead. Equally, however, we need to manage the transition to clean power and net zero.

On the issue of jobs, obviously, the number of people employed by GBE will not balance out the people who may be lost to the oil and gas industry in the future. This is important. It does not really matter where the chair comes from; the point is that the headquarters of GBE will be firmly based in Aberdeen. I have already referred to the extra 40,000 people we need in nuclear by 2030. If you look at the other sectors we are talking about investing in—CCUS, hydrogen—all of them will need more people. So, the energy sector as a whole will provide a huge number of opportunities, but I accept that, if there is a reduction in the number of people employed in the North Sea, it is our responsibility, with industry, to help manage that transition effectively.

In the end, we may disagree about this, but the Government are confident that we are right to go towards clean power as quickly as possible. We have had endorsement, both from the Committee on Climate Change and the Office for Budget Responsibility, that investing in clean energy now will pay dividends in the long term.

[Lord Ashcombe (Con)]

I am grateful to the Minister and, indeed, to my noble friends. I continue to worry that, as we import LNG, our effective emissions, by passing the problem elsewhere, are significantly higher than they would be using our own production. That is an important fact in this debate. We may have to come back to this issue on Report, but for now, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

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[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, and the noble Earl, Lord Russell, for their amendments. We all agree that modern slavery is one of the great scourges of our time. It is estimated that tens of millions of people are trapped in forced labour worldwide, many of them in sectors tied to energy production and manufacturing. Indeed, as the noble Lord and the noble Earl pointed out very eloquently, renewable energy technologies such as solar panels rely on materials such as polysilicon, much of which is sourced from regions where reports of forced labour and human rights abuses are widespread.

These amendments seek to ensure that GBE operates with integrity and accountability in its supply chain practices. Each amendment addresses a crucial aspect of ethical responsibility, and together they would bind the Government to ensure clean energy does not come at the expense of human rights, ethical labour practices or transparency. I encourage the Government to look at this matter carefully. Can the Minister explain what measures will be put in place to ensure that there is oversight of Great British Energy’s supply chains? If Great British Energy is to represent the values of this nation, there is a strong case for tougher measures to prevent public funds being spent in a way that supports or sustains supply chains that exploit human beings.

On Amendment 109, while I recognise the sensitivity and complexity of this issue, it is crucial that we approach it with transparency and courage. Consumers and stakeholders have a right to know the origins of the products they use and the conditions under which they are made. I hope the Minister will listen carefully to the arguments made on this matter; we on these Benches will be very interested to hear his reply.

As a publicly backed entity, Great British Energy has an opportunity to set an example and be a model to other countries. I am sure the Government agree there are opportunities here and we look forward to hearing their response.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for his expert introduction to the amendment. I also thank the noble Earl, Lord Russell, for his wise comments. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Offord, that we are, of course listening very carefully to this important debate, and I have no doubt whatever about the gravity of the issue. The amendments seek to highlight the importance of ensuring that our supply chains are protected from forced labour, and I wholeheartedly support this.