Great British Energy Bill

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd January 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Roborough (Con)]

My Lords, I briefly address Amendment 113 in the name of my noble friend Lord Fuller. I declare my interest in the ownership of salmon fishing rivers.

Proposals that I have seen in the past for energy generated from tidal turbines have tended to be located where currents are strongest. By definition, this is where sea movement is constricted by narrower channels —between islands, between islands and the mainland, in estuaries or on prominent headlands around which currents and tides race. These locations are precisely where the movements of migratory fish species such as salmon and sea trout, as well as saltwater species, will be concentrated. The wild Atlantic salmon is already an IUCN red list species and the greatest of care must be taken with any further risk to the survival of every individual fish, given that the species is so threatened.

For these reasons, I strongly support my noble friend’s amendment and those of my noble friend Lord Offord of Garvel, which he and my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford have spoken to very convincingly. I urge the Minister to take these concerns seriously and consider incorporating environmental protections in this Bill.

[The Minister of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath) (Lab)]

My Lords, this first group of amendments has led to an interesting discussion that went somewhat wider than I expected.

Amendments 111 and 112 proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Offord, and Amendment 113 proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Fuller, would require the Secretary of State to assess the environmental and animal welfare impacts of Great British Energy projects. Amendments 111 and 112 relate to offshore wind energy projects and the decommissioning of offshore oil and gas structures, respectively, involving Great British Energy. Amendment 113 relates to Great British Energy’s offshore tidal energy projects. Under each of these amendments, if, following assessments, significant environmental damage or animal welfare issues are identified, Great British Energy must cease these activities.

The noble Lord, Lord Offord, started by referring to the partnership agreed between Great British Energy and the Crown Estate. He is right that we see great potential in this for our 2030 ambition for offshore wind at between 43 and 50 gigawatts. We also see potential in tidal stream. I relate that to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Howell, on the huge increase in future electricity demand and his suggestion that it would likely have an environmental impact, which Great British Energy would be promoting through its investment in various projects and in clearing the way for other projects.

I very much take the point of the noble Lord, Lord Howell, on the partnership needed between government and the private sector and private finance. I do not know whether that unit in the Cabinet Office still exists, but I am pretty certain that the Cabinet Office is extremely interested in leveraging private finance. This Bill is partly to enable that and to promote expertise in the private sector on behalf of the polices that the Government wish to enact on clean power and net zero.

The noble Lord, Lord Cameron, had some interesting insights on the environmental issues and presented a balanced and helpful report. I make it absolutely clear that the Government’s commitment to the environment is unwavering. We have the Environment Act targets of halting biodiversity decline by 2030 and safeguarding our marine protected areas. We believe that a healthy natural environment is critical to a strong economy and sustainable growth and development. We have a duty to uphold environmental protection and minimise any impact on biodiversity. This must and will extend to any project that Great British Energy is involved in.

I reassure the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, that projects involving Great British Energy will be subject to rigorous planning and environmental regulations that consider impacts on the environment and habitats. The general theme of my argument is that it is not for GBE to do this; it will ensure that any project it is involved with follows the law and the guidance to protect our environment. It seems to me that the argument noble Lords have is with those environmental protections, which, by implication, they presumably think are not strong enough, rather than with Great British Energy.

Perhaps I can carry on that theme. As an example, projects will be subject to the Infrastructure Planning (Environmental Impact Assessment) Regulations 2017, under which the impact of these projects on the environment and habitats are considered as part of the development process. Additionally, as part of the nationally significant infrastructure regime, developers are required to provide environmental assessments as part of their application for development consent, which will be subject to detailed scrutiny through an examination held by the Planning Inspectorate. This will include scrutiny of the environmental impact assessment and a habitats regulations assessment, which would consider the likely impacts of a proposed development against a range of environmental receptors.

The planning process, at both national and local level, is underpinned by a number of other pieces of legislation that will apply to projects in which Great British Energy might have a role. They include: the Town and Country Planning (Environmental Impact Assessment) Regulations 2017; the Environmental Assessment of Plans and Programmes Regulations 2004; the Conservation of Habitats and Species Regulations 2017; and the Conservation of Offshore Marine Habitats and Species Regulations 2017. On offshore wind, I should say that we are working with Defra on the offshore wind environment improvement package to expedite offshore wind consenting while protecting the marine environment.

On the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, in England we are committed to meeting our four legally binding targets for diversity: to halt the decline in species abundance by 2030; to reverse declines by at least 10% by 2042; to reduce the risk of national species extinction by 2042; and to restore or create more than 500,000 hectares of wildlife-rich habitat, also by 2042. We have launched a rapid review of the environmental improvement plan to ensure that it fully supports our mission to recover nature.

We also intend to establish industry-funded marine recovery funds into which applicants can pay to discharge their compensation obligations, underpinned by libraries of approved strategic compensation measures. We are engaging in discussions with the Scottish Government with a view to reaching an agreement on the establishment of, and the delegation of appropriate functions to operate and manage, a separate marine recovery fund for projects in Scotland. We think that the offshore wind environmental improvement package—the OWEIP —will, on the whole, accelerate and de-risk the consent of offshore wind projects while continuing to protect the marine environment.

Great British Energy will not play a role in the decommissioning of oil and gas structures. However, I should say that the UK’s decommissioning regulatory regime requires a robust assessment of the potential impact on safety, technical constraints and costs, ensuring no harm to human health or the environment. Decommissioning proposals are subject to thorough environmental assessment before a regulatory decision is made.

On the matter of tidal, I was interested in the contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Fuller. He referred to the tough challenges involved. I well remember visiting the Pentland Firth when I was last in this job; Rolls-Royce was engaged then, I think. I readily accept that this is a very tough challenge. On the other hand, we are the world leader in tidal stream—half of the world’s operational capacity is situated in UK waters—and we want to go further. My understanding is that six tidal stream contracts, with a capacity of 28 megawatts, were secured in Scotland and Wales in the latest allocation round of the Government’s contracts for difference scheme.

I had responsibility for the River Severn project between 2008 and 2010. I chaired a number of community forums with people in the south-west who were keen to see progress in the Severn but, I have to say, I received the same advice as the noble Lord, Lord Howell: the environmental damage would be so considerable that it was not thought appropriate to go ahead. My understanding—I am not going to guess; I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton—is that the position is still the same, but I will find out some more and let him know, because he clearly has a keen interest in this matter.

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[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

My Lords, I thank and express my support for my noble friends Lord Frost and Lord Hamilton of Epsom, whose amendments address the matter of subsidised renewable energy technology. Considering that GB Energy is already supported by £8.3 billion, I see no viable reason why it should invest in renewable energy projects that are already substantially supported by government subsidies and funded by the British consumer, as my noble friend Lord Petitgas highlighted. Surely it is essential that the renewable energy industry in the UK is not reliant on government handouts for ever. We must look to create an environment that promotes competition and innovation and mitigates the likelihood of inefficiency.

At present, the Government subsidise low-carbon electricity initiatives through contracts for difference, where they guarantee developers a fixed price for the electricity that they generate. This is funded via a levy on consumer bills and, at the end of last year, the Government were considering holding the largest auction yet in 2025 despite recent scrutiny over consumer energy bills. The British consumer is already burdened by the cost of turning off wind turbines to avoid overloading the power grid; this costs the UK £1 billion a year, with that predicted to rise to more than £3.5 billion in the next decade. Why should the taxpayer be burdened numerous times?

According to the OBR, environmental levies are around £12 billion. This amounts to £400 per household in the UK. Yet the cost of offshore wind is less than current market prices and those agreed in auction rounds. If renewables are supposedly cheaper, I query why we are paying these subsidies in the first place. The truth is that the Government’s clean energy by 2030 agenda will require substantial levels of borrowing, which will be spent on subsidising renewable energy technologies. This rushed target will only cost the consumer more. It will not cover energy bills by the £300 a year promised during the election campaign.

Amendment 130 in the name of my noble friend Lord Frost would prevent the Bill being passed until the Secretary of State publishes a report calculating the costs to consumers and taxpayers of the UK renewable energy industry. The amendment raises the issue of transparency. If we are to pass a Bill that is so financially consequential, we must have sight of the Government’s current spending on renewable technologies.

Amendment 118B from my noble friend Lord Hamilton of Epsom would prevent GB Energy investing in a project

“that relies wholly or in part on”

government subsidies. Amendment 129 would prevent the Act being passed until

“the Secretary of State publishes a report on the appropriateness of further Government subsidy for offshore wind developments”.

These three amendments neatly touch on the concerns that I have raised. I ask the Minister to thoroughly consider the worries expressed by my noble friends.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, which reflects previous debates in Committee. It started with the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, being worried that GBE will invest badly, not make money and invest in speculative projects, which he thought the Treasury might encourage it to do. My experience of the Treasury is that that is not how it works out in practice. Our challenge is encouraging the Treasury to make investment decisions, and the scrutiny with which it approaches this matter can be described as vigorous.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

Does the Minister anticipate that the Treasury will have a veto on anything that Great British Energy invests in?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

No, I do not imagine the Treasury will have a veto, but I think it will keep a careful eye on the work of GBE. I have already mentioned in previous debates the number of controls that will be in place.

Noble Lords argue this many ways around, but we are trying to reach a middle ground where we get the benefits of a company with people on the board who are very experienced in this area making hard-headed commercial decisions, because we want GBE to be successful and to make a profit. On the other hand, it is also a public sector body accountable to the Secretary of State and therefore subject to the normal public sector controls. The skill of the GBE board will be to find a way through this, and that is why we wish to give it as much operational independence as possible.

At the risk of repeating myself on the cost issue, in its whole-system analysis undertaken for the previous Government, my department concluded that a renewables-led system, complemented by flexible technologies to ensure that supply and demand are balanced, alongside technology such as nuclear, would form the cheapest foundation for a future decarbonised power grid. Since that analysis was published, a range of external commentators, such as Energy Systems Catapult and the Climate Change Committee, have published analysis which reaches similar conclusions.

Noble Lords have quoted Dieter Helm and other commentators but I believe that there is a general consensus on the broad make-up of the most cost-effective future systems, although there will be some disagreement over potential technologies in future. For instance, the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, raised hydrogen, and, in our short debate on small modular reactors in the House this afternoon, there was a question about value for money in their development. I readily accept that; however, we think that the general mix is the most cost-effective way to go forward.

Amendment 118B seeks to add after Clause 7 a new clause that would prevent GBE investing in any project that relies wholly or in part on government subsidies. I am not in favour of that. First, GBE is operationally independent, so commercial investment decisions need to be made separately from government decisions on subsidy provision. Secondly, GBE will be focused on driving clean energy deployment through its functions. The Government provide different subsidies in different ways across the energy market, so limiting GBE’s activities to areas where there are no government subsidies would unnecessarily constrain the company.

Coming back to a point from the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, the advice we have had from the Climate Change Committee is that CCUS would enable us to have the lowest-cost pathway to net zero. It described it as

“a necessity, not an option”

for maintaining our climate commitments.

The way in which GBE will interact with existing and new government policies and influence the energy system will clearly be determined on a case-by-case basis. We will clarify the relationship between existing schemes and GBE in due course. I assure the Committee that we are currently seeking advice on Great British Energy’s compliance with the Subsidy Control Act in both its establishment and operation.

Amendments 129 and 130 propose additions to Clause 8. In essence, they seek to delay the commencement of the Act until the Secretary of State publishes a report on the appropriateness of further government subsidy for offshore wind developments, as well as a comprehensive report detailing the full costs to consumers and taxpayers of the UK renewable energy industry. Noble Lords will not be surprised to hear that I resist these amendments. We want to see Great British Energy get set up as quickly as possible and get on with the job. Frankly, I do not see it as necessary for those reports to be published.

On Amendment 129, as I said in our debate on the previous group, we are committed to increasing radically the deployment of offshore wind, which provides us with secure, domestically generated electricity. As I have already mentioned, we want 42 to 50 gigawatts of offshore wind by 2030, up from 15 gigawatts today. The contracts for difference scheme is the Government’s main mechanism for supporting new renewable electricity generation projects. We continue to evolve that scheme to ensure that it is aligned with the Government’s wider objectives. In addition, the clean power action plan that we published last year reconfirmed our view, and that of NESO, that clean power can be delivered by 2030 without increasing costs to the consumer and with scope for lower bills.

Overall, I really think that GBE should now be allowed to get on with the job. I do not believe that putting in amendments that would prevent it investing in schemes that attract subsidies is the right way forward. The Government would certainly resist that.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, my concerns remain. This is such a thin Bill and commits the Government to so little—other than spending other people’s money in inordinate quantities—that one can see the potential for things going wrong very easily. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

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[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I speak to the two amendments in my name. The first, Amendment 126, is about the jobs in Aberdeen. Unfortunately, this amendment gets involved only in the number of jobs that are created by Great British Energy in Aberdeen. As my noble friend Lord Trenchard has already referred to, it does not make any reference to the number of jobs that have already been destroyed by the Secretary of State for Energy in not granting any more licences in the North Sea, which will have—

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

It is all very well the noble Lord saying that, but I remind him that a lot of jobs were lost on the UK continental shelf during his Government’s stewardship.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

Yes, but the fact that a number have gone already because the industry is declining is not a compelling reason for destroying even more, in my view—but I hear what the Minister says.

Of course, this contrasts tremendously with the inaugural address from President Trump, saying, “Drill, baby, drill”. He is quite keen on expanding the oil industry in the United States, which is interesting because he slightly gives the impression that the United States has been rather laggardly in producing oil. I have some quite interesting statistics from the Library that indicate that, throughout the Biden years, despite all the green initiatives that were produced, the United States was actually the biggest producer of oil in the world. In 2020, it produced 11.3 million barrels a day, and in 2023 it produced 12.9 million barrels a day. Of that, it was using about 8 or 9 million barrels for its own consumption and exporting the rest. The idea being put out by the Trump regime that drilling for oil will somehow be a new venture is quite interesting; it has been going on, fit to bust, under the Biden Administration—you slightly wonder how that ties in with all the green credentials that he was boasting about, when they were producing these vast quantities of oil. They were way ahead of the Russians, who were the second-biggest producer of oil, at about 10 million barrels a day.

We are now in an interesting situation, as there seems to be a recognition by the Trump regime that we will go on needing hydrocarbons and oil way into the future. At the end of the day, the idea that we can somehow phase all this out in this country slightly defies credibility because, as we have discussed already, the reserves of oil are higher than they have ever been, and we will go on needing it for quite some time. It is rather extraordinary that we do not produce our own oil in the North Sea for our requirements. As it is, we will have to import it from other places, creating CO₂ emissions and so forth on the way.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Earl, Lord Russell, for moving his amendment and all noble Lords who made contributions or comments. Perhaps I may take them thematically, starting with the importance of oversight. As regards the amendments in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, we on these Benches are in favour of the sentiment of Amendments 122 to 124.

As mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, the strategic priorities for GB Energy are not included in the Bill. Indeed, we have not had sight of those most important principles; we simply do not have any concrete examples of what GB Energy as a company will be trying to achieve. I must therefore ask the Minister: how can we support the Government if we do not even know what the proposed investment vehicle will put taxpayers’ money into? This House and the other place must have sight of the strategic priorities of GB Energy so that we can assess its goals, what it intends to achieve, how these goals will be achieved, in what order they will be prioritised, and how much money will be spent on those goals and priorities.

I turn to Amendment 125 in my name, which ensures that the Bill cannot come into force until a financial framework document has been laid before Parliament. Much like the noble Earl, Lord Russell, I am deeply concerned that we have not yet had sight of this most important information. I do not feel it is possible to move forward with the Bill, or GB Energy itself, until we have understood its financial structure. I therefore strongly urge the Government to produce a financial framework for GB Energy and let us examine it.

Amendment 126, in the names of my noble friends Lord Hamilton of Epsom and Lord Trenchard, requires the Secretary of State to publish an assessment of the impact GB Energy will have on the number of jobs in Aberdeen. The Government are already putting at risk 200,000 jobs in the North Sea oil and gas sector in the UK but, of course, this will hit the city of Aberdeen particularly hard, as it is the centre of the UK domestic oil and gas industry. None of us would object to the Government looking to bring a more diverse range of sovereign energy sources online, but we should not be sacrificing hundreds of thousands of jobs or people’s livelihoods in the process.

The transition to green energy, if it is managed correctly and done in an orderly fashion—not on an artificially accelerated basis—has the opportunity to provide a swathe of new well-paid jobs. We must therefore hold the Government to their word that GB Energy will create 650,000 jobs, which is a big number and target. It is for this reason that the Secretary of State must publish an assessment of the impact GB Energy will have on the number of jobs in Aberdeen. That will show noble Lords whether the Government are keeping their word, whether these jobs are created and will be of benefit to Aberdeen, and whether we have indeed seen the transition talked about.

Finally, I turn to Amendment 127 in the names of my noble friends Lord Hamilton of Epsom and Lord Trenchard. That amendment will ensure that the Bill cannot come into force until the Secretary of State has published a report on the cost and viability of the Government’s net-zero targets. We should transition away from the use of fossil fuels and reduce the volume of greenhouse gases we emit into the atmosphere, but it must be done in an economical and sustainable manner. I hope that the Minister has listened carefully to these concerns.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I do listen carefully to what noble Lords have said. Our final debate in Committee, as the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, suggests, takes us back to some of the early debates and concerns that noble Lords have. I am particularly grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Russell, for his support. The point he made is that the cost of doing nothing will, in the end, be much more expensive than the cost of net zero. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, that sticking to oil and gas is certainly not a free lunch, either. The noble Earl also pointed to the declining reserves in the UK continental shelf. This is a fact of life and why there were losses of jobs in Aberdeen under the previous Government. I will come back to the issue of Aberdeen in a moment.

Clearly, the effect of the amendments will be to defer the commencement of most provisions in the Bill until several requirements have been met. They include the laying before and approval by Parliament of a framework document and statement of strategic priorities, the publication of an outline statement of strategic priorities, the publication of an assessment on the expected impact of the Act on the number of jobs in Aberdeen and the publication of a report on the cost and viability of the Government’s net-zero targets. We have already discussed many of these matters in Committee and the Committee will be aware of the Government’s views and intents on this.

Our aim is to get this Bill on the statute book as soon as we can. It is also our clear intention that the statement of strategic priorities cannot be produced without the full involvement of Great British Energy in order to get its expertise, including that of the newly appointed non-executive directors, to inform the statement. This is why we do not believe that we can publish the statement of strategic priorities either during the passage of the Bill or before Royal Assent. Once parliamentary approval is given, we will ensure that we move as quickly as we possibly can to produce the statement.

On accountability, in the end, Ministers will agree with the statement that we are accountable to Parliament. I do not think your Lordships’ House is backward in holding Ministers to account for what they do. We have the Select Committee process, there are numerous opportunities for scrutiny of what we decide in relation to the statement and, of course, the statement is also subject to revision from time to time.

On the framework document, I suppose I can only repeat what I said before. We are committed to producing a framework document. It will, as framework documents do, cover the governance structure, the requirements for reporting and information sharing, and the financial responsibilities and controls. I have given this assurance from the Dispatch Box, so that is a government statement of what is going to happen. The framework document will be extensive and will follow the normal course of action. I hope that assures noble Lords that everything is being done in a proper way and with proper accountability, ensuring that Great British Energy is subject to the appropriate controls—as is only right for a body that is ultimately responsible to the Secretary of State for its activities.

We think that it is a very good thing that GBE will be based in Aberdeen; a significant proportion of GBE’s staff will certainly be based there. We think that Aberdeen will benefit from new jobs in the economy created because of GBE’s investment in renewable energy projects. I understand and very much accept the need to ensure, as we have talked about, a just transition for the people involved in the oil and gas sector. We want to do everything we can to enable offshore workers to lead the world in the industries of the future, which is why we are working very hard with businesses, employees and workers to manage our existing fields for the entirety of their lifetime and are putting in place programmes to support a transition. It is interesting that research from Robert Gordon University shows that 90% of oil and gas workers have medium to high transferable skills for offshore renewable jobs; knowing the skills that people who work in the North Sea bring to the jobs they do, that does not surprise me.

This is all I will say to the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, in relation to President Trump’s decisions: it is interesting that, in his first term, the US actually saw quite a drive into renewable energy. It may be that we will still see the same direction under the new Administration in the end; that is for the US Government to decide. We as a Government are sticking to the Paris Agreement and to the need to get to net zero and clean power as soon as we possibly can.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

There are interesting comments in the press that, although President Trump is committed to increasing the amount of oil the United States produces, that is very much dependent on the price. The frackers of oil and gas in the United States will frack it if they can get a good price for it; if the price drops, they will hold back, so it does not follow that he will actually increase the oil production of the United States by saying, “Drill, baby, drill”.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, that is a very interesting comment indeed.

I turn to Amendment 127, the effect of which I resist because in the end, it is inconsistent with our intention to set up GBE as quickly as possible. I understand noble Lords’ concerns about information being available now, but we are keen to see GBE up and running. The statement of strategic priorities will ultimately be subject to parliamentary scrutiny. We want GBE to play a full part in the discussions on it and the framework document will be extensive, following normal procedure.

On that basis, the Government are not willing to move in that area. However, I am looking at some of the issues around the statement of strategic priorities, particularly in relation to timing, and will perhaps give a sense of some of the pointers that will be raised in it. I will continue to have discussions with noble Lords on that between Committee and Report.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I start by reflecting the Minister’s last sentence in his response to this group of amendments. I thank him and his officials for the open nature with which they have engaged and continue to engage with us. The prospect of further discussions on these issues prior to Report is very welcome from my point of view.

As I have said, I recognise the need to set up GB Energy at speed, and I recognise that it needs to exist to feed into the strategic priorities. I particularly welcome the Minister’s last sentence. As I said, my amendments in this group were about trying to find a compromise and a way forward. I also welcome his comments from the Dispatch Box on the framework document, guaranteeing that it will be produced and will be extensive and follow the proper course of action. Again, those are welcome documents, and I am sure that Members of this Committee will note them.

It is welcome that GB Energy will be headquartered in Aberdeen. It is my opinion that GB Energy will help to create good and stable green jobs. The Minister said that 90% of oil and gas offshore jobs have high levels of transferrable skills. I think we can all agree that we need a just and fair transition for the people who work in our oil and gas industry, and we all need to keep that in mind. The Committee will also note the Minister’s comments on Amendment 127. With that, I thank all noble Lords for taking part in what has been an interesting set of debates.