Great British Energy Bill

Baroness Young of Old Scone Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 11th February 2025 Lords Chamber

Interestingly, a 20% blend for off-grid properties will not only meet but exceed the carbon budgets straightaway, up to 2035. As I said, millions of people rely on this fuel oil at the moment, and it costs them a lot of money. I hope that Great British Energy will be conscious of the need for oil consumers too, and that it will include the change that I hope will come as a result of some of the things that I put in my amendment—I shall not go into them now—and bring people the comfort that they can still heat their homes, businesses or properties in a cost-effective way. The fuels are available now, the people are available to do it and the series of changes involved would be easy and quick to make. I look forward to my noble friend the Minister’s response to this group.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 13, to which I have put my name.

I am very clear that biomass is not clean energy. It has substantial downsides: the harvesting cycle does not replace carbon in an equivalent way until many years have passed; and the same goes for the impact on biodiversity—there is not a like-for-like replacement at all.

If we were to grow our own biomass here in the UK, the land take would be substantial and would compromise land uses for multiple other requirements for which we need land, as outlined in the land use framework. If the feedstock comes not from the UK but from overseas sources, that is not a secure source and we are putting ourselves in a position of vulnerability—as indeed we are from other overseas sources of fuel at the moment. It is not a sustainable and secure feedstock.

I welcome the Government’s Drax Statement yesterday, provided that it is only a first step to a rapid phase-down of Drax; I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that. Can he also confirm whether the Government support the recent Ember report on subsidies post-2031, which shows that the case for a 2030 clean power system for the UK is possible, while reducing considerably our reliance on this expensive, imported biodiversity-unfriendly biomass?

On Amendment 44 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, I will ask the Minister for clarification. Will the review of biomass power, which was signalled in the Drax announcement, cover absolutely all the points made by the noble Baroness in subsections (2)(a) to (e) in the new clause proposed by Amendment 44? Can he give us some clarity on that?

I was not intending to comment on Amendment 2 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, on carbon capture and storage, but I am afraid that I will have to. I really do not like being on the opposite side from the noble Baroness, because she is a bit of a fighter and two Scots against each other might not be a good idea. But I think we are making a big mistake in overrelying, in the carbon budgets, on carbon capture and storage. I also agree with the noble Lord, Lord Howell—this is an out-of-body experience for me—and disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell; this is all the wrong way round. The reality is that carbon capture and storage projects are failing worldwide at the moment; they are not proceeding well, and investment is being withdrawn. This is the emperor’s new clothes. We are all saying, “There’s a bloody great hole”—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

Sorry, Hansard.

There is a huge hole in the carbon budgets, in which we have all colluded by saying, “Well, carbon capture and storage will fill that hole”. But what happens if it is the emperor’s new clothes and it does not work? We have to be very wary and understand what is happening at the moment. The Government are, quite rightly, throwing quite a lot of money at carbon capture and storage to trial it out as quickly as possible to find out whether we here in the UK can make it happen. If we can, great; let us replicate it very fast. If we cannot, we have to find some other solutions.

My final point is in support of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley—

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for giving way. I do not want it to sound as though CCUS is the answer to everything, but surely the whole concept of carbon sinks, of trying to preserve our forests—which are rapidly disappearing—and of developing new freshwater areas around the world in desert areas, as has been proposed in a very elaborate series of schemes, is doing just that: they are trying to capture carbon directly out of the atmosphere or from projects which are belting out carbon. What is wrong about that? I do not quite see why she is so dismissive.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

I am probably breaking the rules here—I should address the House rather than the noble Lord—but nature-based solutions, which create biodiversity and other benefits, such as benefits for human health, mental health, water purification and flood control, are excellent schemes if they can be made to work effectively and cost effectively, bearing in mind all the benefits. Carbon capture and storage from industrial processes or, indeed, from air sources—from carbon that is already out there—is the bit that is not yet tested and not yet proven. We need to get ahead and decide whether we can make that work in the UK, which, I hope, is what the Government are trying to do. Perhaps the Minister will confirm that.

On Amendment 35, I share the joys with noble Lord, Lord Berkeley—not in the same house, I may say—of being an off-grid home owner who wants to do their bit for carbon reduction. At the moment, the choice for the average home owner in a rural property of an aged sort, which is highly dependent on oil because they are off the gas grid, is not terrific. You live in trembling fear of the wretched boiler breaking down: in an emergency situation such as that, the choice that then faces you is either just slamming in another oil-fired boiler, or else shelling out 20-odd thousand and waiting in the cold for six months while they work out how to put in an air source heat pump, which will probably not work at all anyway. It is not a choice. We need options for that rather beleaguered population in the country, many of whom live in aged, drafty houses and have very little assets of their own to be able to upgrade or may have a listed building of the sort you cannot upgrade.

Renewable liquid fuel seems to allow a simple transition using existing kit rather than having to capitalise up front for a totally new technology. It could produce—literally from next week, if you wanted it to—carbon reductions of up to 80%. I support the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and I hope the Government can do that too.

[Lord Krebs (CB)]

My Lords, I did not intend to speak in this debate, but I will say a few words about biomass and Drax. In so doing, I have to declare a conflict of interest in that I chair Drax’s independent advisory board on sustainable biomass.

The point I want to make is very simple: the devil is in the detail. There are circumstances under which biomass is not sustainable as a source of energy, where it does not replace the carbon emitted from the chimney stack by the growth of new trees. On the other hand, there are circumstances under which it is carbon neutral. Therefore, the crucial thing is to understand whether Drax is sourcing its material in a sustainable way.

It is not my job here to defend Drax and it is certainly not my job to comment on government subsidy, but I can say that there is a very detailed literature on forest carbon. If any noble Lords wish to make assertions about the carbon neutrality or otherwise of biomass burned by Drax at its power station, they should first study this literature in great detail and not rely on second-hand reports on “Panorama” or in other media outlets. So, I simply urge those noble Lords who wish to comment on Drax to study the detail.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Boycott (CB)]

Okay.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, may I add to the outbreak of harmony by thanking the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and the Minister for Amendment 8? As the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, said, it is great to see local community benefit coming on to the face of the Bill. Especially since all the supporting material about GB Energy is very strong on community energy schemes, it just seemed rather crazy that it was not in the Bill, so I say thank you for that.

Ideally, of course—we environmentalists are miserable people who always want more, so I am moving on to Amendment 22, to which I also have added my name—with the Government having gone as far as Amendment 8, which puts community energy schemes on the face of the Bill, it would be quite nice to get slightly more specific recognition that such schemes need to be part of the strategic priorities. Therefore, can the Minister say why he will not accept Amendment 22, which I assume he will not support?

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I shall join in the general outbreak of harmony that has struck your Lordships’ House and welcome government Amendment 8 on community energy. This is one more demonstration that campaigning works—but, boy, does it often take quite a long while. I really must commend Community Energy England, Green Alliance, and Peers for the Planet, which have all been pushing this issue for a very long time. I also commend your Lordships’ House collectively, because your Lordships may recall that, in the previous Government’s Energy Bill—now an Act—this was the last amendment standing, as we defended again and again the need to include community energy on the face of that Bill. Perhaps this is a demonstration to your Lordships’ House that it is a good idea to stand up for principles, because eventually you will get there, even if it takes some time.

To echo the remarks of the noble Baronesses, Lady Young and Lady McIntosh, yes, we would like to see the Government go further, both in the strategic priorities and in the sense that we need long-term, stable policies. I remember meeting so many community energy groups that were just about ready to go when the feed-in tariff was ripped out from underneath them and their projects collapsed after so much voluntary effort had been put in. The people doing this need the certainty to know that this will work and deliver, and that means long-term, stable policies.

Turning to Amendment 14 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, I can say that, based on the clarification that he has just provided, the Green group will be pleased to support his amendment, should he press it to the vote.

In the previous group, we were talking about Drax, which has benefited from £6 billion of subsidies since 2012, which the people and the planet cannot afford anymore. Imagine if that £6 billion had gone into home energy efficiency instead; there is good evidence to show that we would have needed so much less generation in the first place. The cleanest, greenest energy that you can possibly have is the energy that you do not need to use. There are not only the environmental benefits and the cost-of-living benefits, as huge as they are; there are also the public health benefits, since so many people live in unhealthy homes. Your Lordships’ House often talks about productivity and all the people of working age who are not in paid work. The quality of our homes is a big issue there, and that must not be forgotten as an added bonus, as well as the environmental and cost-of-living ones.