Live Debate: Commons Chamber

Urgent question: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will make a statement on the incident that occurred in Headingley on 26 April 2025

Education is a devolved matter. I know that my honourable friend is a champion of these issues. I'm happy to meet with him and we are

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committed to rolling out support teams every school in England. We will let the Front Benches

15:38

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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15:38

Mr Speaker

We will let the Front Benches Order. Order. We Order. Order. We come Order. Order. We come to Order. Order. We come to the Order. Order. We come to the motion on committee selection. Which to move.

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I beg to move. The question is as on the Order Paper as many are of that opinion say, "Aye". And of the contrary, say, "Aye". And of the contrary, "No". The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Before I call the audible

15:39

Speaker's statement Mr Speaker

have it. Before I call the audible member for Leeds Central and Headingley to ask is Urgent Question, I must advise the house that although the matter is not yet that although the matter is not yet sub judice, for the purpose of the House, members should exercise care

15:39

Urgent question: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will make a statement on the incident that occurred in Headingley on 26 April 2025

House, members should exercise care in what they say about a live criminal investigation. I urge members to avoid speculating about members to avoid speculating about the guilt or innocence of any person. The identity of the person who has been arrested, or the motive for the attack. Members should take care not to say anything in this house that might prejudice a criminal trial. Members may ask about emergency services, response to the attacks, support victims families and other connected matters. But I urge the utmost caution in avoiding any remarks that

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might be prejudicial. I called the honourable member to ask his question.

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Thank you. To ask the Secretary

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Thank you. To ask the Secretary of State to make a statement on the issue that occurred in Headingley on 26 April.

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26 April. Mr Speaker, first of all can I thank my honourable friend for securing this Urgent Question. May I begin by expressing my thoughts and prayers are with the victims of this horrific violent incident in horrific violent incident in Headingley, Leeds, on Saturday. I Headingley, Leeds, on Saturday. I understand the shock that this incident has caused amongst the local community in Headingley. I understand that the member for Leeds Central and Headingley will want to get rapid answers for the constituents that he represents.

At the same time, as you have pointed out, this is a live police

15:40

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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investigation, and we all have responsibility not to say anything that would interfere with that investigation or any legal proceedings that may follow from it. For the benefit of the House, I will recap what the police have themselves said about the incident themselves said about the incident and the ongoing investigation. On the afternoon of Saturday 26th of the afternoon of Saturday 26th of April, West Yorkshire police were called to reports of a mail on Otley Road, Headingley, Leeds, in Road, Headingley, Leeds, in possession of a crossbow and a firearm.

Armed police arrived at the scene at 1453, where the suspect was found with a self-inflicted injury. He was taken to hospital and remains in a life-threatening condition. On arrival, officers also found two maximums of the public who were injured and admitted to hospital. One of the victims has now been discharged from hospital. The other has undergone surgery after suffering life-threatening injuries. Our thoughts remain with the victims and their families. Counter- terrorism police north-east have taken the lead for the investigation into this attack.

They are now working with the West Yorkshire working with the West Yorkshire police. As I have already said, this is an ongoing investigation and I cannot comment on particular details of the case, other than to note that we must allow the police time and space to conduct their investigation. Having said that, we are very aware of concerns about the use of crossbows in violent attacks. We share this concern. Last week the government tabled amendments to the Crime and Policing Bill to strengthen age verification controls on both the online sale and delivery of crossbows.

The previous government held a Call for Evidence on licensing systems that could apply to crossbows, last year. To which they did not respond. As part which they did not respond. As part of our wider work to get dangerous and lethal weapons of Britain's streets, we will shortly be publishing our response to that consultation. Setting out how we plan to go further to limit the availability and accessibility of availability and accessibility of crossbows in this country. crossbows in this country.

15:42

Alex Sobel MP (Leeds Central and Headingley, Labour )

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Mr Speaker, I'm very grateful to you for granting this Urgent Question, and for the harrowing attack in my community on Saturday. My community is still reeling in shock and disbelief at the horrific acts of violence that occurred on Saturday. I would like to begin by expressing my concerns and sending best wishes for the recovery of the two women who were hurt in this grievous attack. I would like to express my gratitude for heroic efforts of the members of the public and our local community who intervened.

The details of how they help are still emerging but we know that without them we may have had far worse tragedy. I would also like to thank all the emergency services and the Council for their swift response was to ensuring the situation was brought under control and isolated. The fact this most heinous crimes committed against two is not lost on anyone. I would like to thank West Yorkshire police are increasing their presence in the area and working to ensure the safety of violence against women and girls.

The response to this horrific attack is testament to the Headingley community and the people of West Yorkshire. I won't tell you that our community is strong, and we remain united and will not allow this to divide us. The key suspect was carrying a range of lethal weapons of the attack was carried out. The two victims were both shot by crossbows. It is a weapon that has been used in murders before. I know the Home Office issued a Call for Evidence and on public sector grounds that ran from 14 February to 9 April last year.

The Minister now publish a response and find new controls on use and ownership of these weapons after Saturday? We need to see action taken on these lethal weapons. I know that police inquiries are ongoing. What we do know is that this is a criminal incident and the lead forces are counter-terrorism police. For

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Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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individual to carry out planned such a vile attack on two women does require us to ask questions of how intelligence gathering operated intelligence gathering operated prior to this attack. Can the Minister reassure me in my community Minister reassure me in my community and the house that there will be a thorough investigation into what thorough investigation into what attention was on the suspect and if lessons can be learned for the safety and security of the public? I would like to finish by paying would like to finish by paying tribute to the local community in tribute to the local community in the area that I'm proud to call home.

I thank them for their bravery and kindness as well as the excellent emergency services in West Yorkshire. Thank you.

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Can I thank my honourable friend for those comments. He is actually right to pay tribute to the community and the member of the community and the member of the public who came forward when that attack was happening. And of course attack was happening. And of course the emergency services who, as ever, the emergency services who, as ever, look towards danger when many others look at the opposite direction. It look at the opposite direction. It is right that we pay tribute in the way that my honourable friend has done.

I hope that I've offered him some reassurance in the comments I

15:45

Matt Vickers MP (Stockton West, Conservative)

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some reassurance in the comments I made in response to his Urgent Question about the government's approach towards crossbows and what's more we want to do. As I said, we will be publishing our response to the consultation that took place last year very shortly. As to the point around the investigation, it is clearly underway, I know that it will be a very thorough investigation. The very comrades of investigation. And that all issues that my noble friend

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Everybody will have found the

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Everybody will have found the reports of the severity of this incident deeply concerning. I would like to condolences to anyone like to condolences to anyone involved in the tap -- In the attack, I thank the emergency services were responding to the services were responding to the incident. West Yorkshire police have said the counterterrorism police are involved in responding to the

15:46

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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involved in responding to the incident. We have heard from the independent reviewer of terror legislation about the importance of not allowing an information vacuum performer. Will the Minister ensure there is as much transparency as possible, regarding the release of information about this case. And secondly, I am aware that the aftermath of the incident, although the police are not seeking anyone else in connection with it, there will be an increased police presence across Headingley, and the broader city of Leeds in the coming days and weeks.

Given this horrific attack was on two young women, I would be grateful if the Minister could outline whether they had had any discussions about what that presence will entail, and what measures are being taken, in particular, to

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ensure young women and girls feel safe in Leeds following this incident? Well, I am grateful to the comments of the shadow minister, and comments of the shadow minister, and he is absolutely right to praise the public had Headingley and the emergency services. And clearly, the emergency services. And clearly, the police presence that is now in Headingley and across Leeds of course, that is an operational matter for the chief constable, and I know that he will be very mindful I know that he will be very mindful of the needs of that community, in making clear what police presence needs to happen.

In terms of the issue around information in the flow of information and being transparent, of course, and mindful of that, again, this is a large , with the police, and they make decisions about what information is disclosed at the appropriate time. And as I have said, and as the And as I have said, and as the speakers also set out to this House, how important it is that there isn't speculation at this stage we allow the police to do their job and investigate, look at the evidence, and take the appropriate action as and when.

15:48

Anna Dixon MP (Shipley, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would firstly like to echo the comments of my honourable friend for Leeds Central and Headingley, in expressing my deep sympathies to the

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Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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families of the victims of this horrendous crime. The West Yorkshire police are currently investigating police are currently investigating two recent murders in my own two recent murders in my own constituency of Shipley. And I would constituency of Shipley. And I would really just like to ask my right honourable friend if she could just assure me that West Yorkshire police to have the necessary resources that to have the necessary resources that they need to be investigating not only this most recent incident in Headingley, but also the wider Headingley, but also the wider Serious Crime Act is going at the moment in this area.

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I'm very grateful for the

15:49

Lisa Smart MP (Hazel Grove, Liberal Democrat)

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comments of my honourable friend, and can I reassure her that, yes, all police forces have seen additional resources put in, in this new financial year, up to 19.6 billion is going into policing. We know there are challenges in policing, but I have every confidence West Yorkshire police have the resources they need, I know they have a very effective mayor and deputy mayor, who leads the policing, they make the case for

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their police force very well indeed. Thank you very much indeed, Mr Speaker. No one should have to live Speaker. No one should have to live in fear of such horrific violence. The appalling events in Headingley The appalling events in Headingley on Saturday have left the community shocks and two women with really serious industries. My thoughts, those of all the Liberal Democrats those of all the Liberal Democrats are of course with the victims, their families and all those affected by a crime of such awful brutality.

This is yet another

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Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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brutality. This is yet another devastating example of the violence faced by women and girls across the country, which we must all work to end. It is also yet another example of a violent attack by a crossbow that has been used, one of two many in recent years. Among others, my honourable friend, then a Richmond Park, has urged the government to review and strengthen cross-border regulations, and I note the government a menace to the Crime and Policing Bill, including clause 70 at the Minister's response to the honourable member for Leeds Central and Headingley, but could the Minister confirm when the government is formal response to the call for evidence will be published?

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I'm grateful to the comments from the honourable member who leads for the Liberal Democrats, and of course, we are all committed to ensuring that violence occurs women ensuring that violence occurs women and girls is halved over the course of the next decade. And my of the next decade. And my honourable friend who sits with me on the Treasury bench today is leading on that. It is a really important strand of the Safer Streets Mission. On the crossbow Streets Mission.

On the crossbow issue, I am pleased to hear the support from the Liberal Democrats for the work that is ongoing at the moment, and in the Crime and Policing Bill in particular, it will be very shortly that we will bring this approach from the government and response to the consultation forward. Can I just say I have taken a particular interest in this issue. I have met with families that have been affected by crossbow violence attacks. Laura, Upinder Field, who lost her partner.

Shane Gilmer who I met recently for supper just this morning, I met Joan, whose partner, Dave, was killed in 2022 by someone using a crossbow. So, I am very aware of the need for action on this particular issue.

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Thank you, Mr Speaker. And also, please may I wish the victims of the please may I wish the victims of the Headingley attack a full recovery. My thoughts are with their friends My thoughts are with their friends and family and the community. Just this morning, I welcomed Jonah to this morning, I welcomed Jonah to Westminster, to meet with the Minister for crime and, thank the Minister for her advice and counsel

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Mr Bayo Alaba MP (Southend East and Rochford, Labour)

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Minister for her advice and counsel for following the tragic loss of her beloved partner, Dave, Dave was fatally struck by vaults -- Bolts fire from a crossbow in an open busy park in 2022. Dave was affectionately known as West Ham Dave, a larger-than-life character.

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Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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Dave and Joan together had 22 Dave and Joan together had 22 grandchildren who now load -- No longer have they granted in their lives. The crossbow was purchased by a resident with paranoid a resident with paranoid schizophrenia who had a history of mental health struggles. It was purchased freely, unchecked, unlicensed, and on the internet. Does the Secretary of State agree more needs to be done to stop more needs to be done to stop crossbows falling into the wrong hands and can she join me in thanking Joan for her bravery in sharing her story? Thank you.

15:53

Charlie Dewhirst MP (Bridlington and The Wolds, Conservative)

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sharing her story? Thank you. Well, can I thank my honourable friend for bringing Joan to see me today. She was an incredibly brave and impressive person to hear directly from about the impact of what it meant to her and her family and the 22 grandchildren, the loss of Dave. I think my honourable friend, just a few words he said then, make the case very effectively for further changes around crossbows as the law around them.

15:53

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Minister mentioned her meeting with Laura, may I pay tribute to Laura for the campaign she is doing on this. It is now over seven years ago since Anthony Lawrence brutally murdered her partner, Lauren herself was attacked by a crossbow, and was pregnant at the time. I know a response is coming to the consultation but can she perhaps

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gives a detail of the timetable of that response of what likely next steps we are going to see? I would also like to pay tribute

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I would also like to pay tribute to Laura, an incredibly brave woman, faced with the horrific attack that happened when the neighbour got through the roof space and into the through the roof space and into the House, and attacked her and her House, and attacked her and her partner. I cannot give a specific partner. I cannot give a specific date. I used to really dislike this when I was sitting on those benches and a government minister would say surely or imminently, but I can surely or imminently, but I can guarantee that I am doing my very best to do this as soon as possible, that we will respond to the consultation from last year.

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Thank you, Mr Speaker, can I express my sympathies to the victims express my sympathies to the victims and those affected by the attack, and can I welcome the presence of and can I welcome the presence of the mayor of West Yorkshire in the gallery today. Does the Minister

15:55

Lee Anderson MP (Ashfield, Reform UK)

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support the excellent work to keep women and girls safe in West Yorkshire and will she commit to working with crime commissioners

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across the country who tackle the rise of misogyny? I don't want to get into trouble

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I don't want to get into trouble with Mr Speaker but I am very conscious of the excellent work that the mayor of West Yorkshire carries

15:55

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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the mayor of West Yorkshire carries out and her deputy, Allison Lowe, and the fight for women and girls and a real commitment to make policies that will have a dramatic

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effect on the women and girls of West Yorkshire. We have unhinged individuals roaming our streets, towns and cities with crossbows, knives, swords, dangerous weapons. And no tinkering around legislation or tinkering around legislation or licensing will stop this madness. Isn't it about time we had mandatory

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jail sentences for people carrying these weapons? I think the honourable gentleman

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I think the honourable gentleman raises a really important point. And raises a really important point. And I think we are working in government as quickly as possible to understand that identify the nature and scale of a growing cohort of predominantly young men, and boys, who are fixated with violence. We want to make sure with violence. We want to make sure we have a proper multiagency interventions and approach to manage the risk they pose. And the Prime Minister has already set out that a Minister has already set out that a more needs to change, to recognise this new and dangerous threat, then we will change it and we will do so quickly.

Can I thank the Minister for coming forward and making a response to this urgent question and I want to put on record 90% of these to the victims and their families of this terrible incident. I think listening to members across the House talk about the victims of crossbow attacks, I find the whole issue very shocking, particularly someone who visits Westcliff on a regular basis will somehow wonder if in light of this terrible attacks there is more we can do as a government to make sure we support victims and families of the terrible attacks.

15:56

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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My honourable friend raises a really important issue about how victims of these attacks are supported. And of course, as I discussed this morning, I was talking with Joan about the support she received about the horrific attack with Dave Peck. There is more to do on this, it is certainly something I am aware of. And again, with Laura, the support and help she has had, since she was attacked by a crossbow. But there is more to do and I will certainly be talking to my counterpart in the Ministry of

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Justice around that support. Mr Speaker, does the Minister share my surprise at just how easy it is to get a hold of one of these it is to get a hold of one of these weapons? A few clicks buys you a guillotine explores compound guillotine explores compound crossbow for £324.91, +699 delivery,

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Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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crossbow for £324.91, +699 delivery, or a jaguar deluxe for 100 2995 -- For 129.95, free delivery. These are as shocking as shotguns but we do not licence them as such. Will the Minister for plans she has heralded, seriously consider going on the route of similar European countries and make sure these deadly weapons are properly controlled?

15:58

Tom Collins MP (Worcester, Labour)

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I think in a few sentences at the right honourable friend Tillman just voted it to the House, he makes a very compelling case about why change is needed around this area. So, I cannot go any further today, but I hear what he says and I share his concern about the fact that you can just go online and in a few clicks by one of these items. -- Purchase one of these items.

15:58

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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I have had a number of people mentioned to me that they themselves have been to university in Leeds or they still have kids living in the local area in Harrogate going to the University of Leeds, it has a high density of population of students. I wonder what conversations the government had had with local authorities and other partners, to ensure that university student and parents feel supported and those reassurances, and I would also like to make sure I echo the sentiments of numbers across the House in terms of thanks to emergency services and

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those affected. I think the honourable gentleman

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I think the honourable gentleman wakes a very important point about public reassurance and confidence about going out in local

15:59

Robin Swann MP (South Antrim, Ulster Unionist Party)

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about going out in local communities. I know West Yorkshire police are doing that for the extra police presence. I know my honourable friend, the Member of Parliament that area will be working with community groups and the University. I also know the Home Secretary and security minister have also been involved over the weekend, in this incident. And being properly briefed. So, I think across-the- board, there is engagement and all the key stakeholders are part of those conversations.

15:59

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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Thanks very much, Mr Speaker, I join the rest of the House in wishing those victims of this horrific crime a speedy recovery. I note that the counterterrorism police have been involved in regards police have been involved in regards to terrorism, and online, that incitement to violence. Limited join me in condemning the recent statement by the so-called Irish rock band, Kneecap, where it has been reported that they have set their audience that they should kill their local MP and the only good Tory is a dead Tory.

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Yes, of course I would condemn any comments like that online. Clearly, I cannot comment if we are Clearly, I cannot comment if we are talking about this particular case today about anything posted online

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Mr Speaker

today about anything posted online in relation to this case. But the honourable gentleman will know we work in partnership with technology companies, to ensure they understand their responsibilities to tackle illegal content on their platforms, and we have been clear that they need to act quickly, to identify and remove the content from their platforms, posted, and generally the Online Safety Act places duties and platforms as with the identify and remove illegal content which we expect them to abide by. expect them to abide by.

Furthermore, these platforms have a moral responsibility to keep their users safe and the general public save, and we expect them to take all reasonable steps to do so.

16:01

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Can I say, it is very important the matter is raised, I am not sure it fitted in here, might have been good to do a point of order at the end because I do think it was

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something that was going to be raised in the House. Right, I thank them in a very much for

16:01

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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I thank them in a very much for the answer. Our thoughts are always with the victims and indeed with the police officers at the emergency services who responded in a positive services who responded in a positive way. It is free from others and myself, that incidences like these highlight the police services and community police officers need to be seen more on the ground. To ensure the police officers look at three occurring incidents and the use of crossbows and the police ensure public safety and send a message police are on the ground and close by and understand this needs to be the case, not in Headingley, but -- Not just in Headingley, but across Wooperton and Northern Ireland.

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Urgent question: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will make a statement on child rape gangs

The honourable gentleman makes the case for what this government is doing which is neighbourhood policing, putting those 13,000 police officers in PCSOs back in our local areas, into other committees, to not only provide the police presence, but the public reassurance which are so important to the people we are present.

16:02

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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That complete the Urgent Question, let the frontbenchers

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Shadow Secretary of State. Key Mr Speaker. To ask the Home

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Key Mr Speaker. To ask the Home Secretary to make a statement on the child rape gang scandal. Thank you Mr Speaker. The shadow

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Thank you Mr Speaker. The shadow Home Secretary is away, when I updated the House on the independent national inquiry into child sexual national inquiry into child sexual abuse and on the action we are taking to investigate and tackle child grooming gangs across the country. As I have said many times, people up and down the country are horrified by the appalling crimes committed by despicable grooming gangs. Children subjected to the most unthinkable sexual violence. Frontline services and local authorities, elected politicians, turned away or even blames the children rather than their rapists.

I know this because I spoke to victims week in week out, and have done for decades. This government is determined to get to the truth of both historic and current grooming gangs, to ensure perpetrators are punished, and to deliver justice and accountability for victims and survivors. That is why we are pressing ahead with key recommendations of the independent inquiry including the mandatory duty to report. S Casey, conducted a no holds barred review into gangs offending in Rotherham, is currently overseeing a National Audit Office on group based child sexual exploitation and abuse.

The audit to identify what further work is needed. It is looking at the scale, nature, and profile of group based abuse. Including the characteristics of offenders. It will conclude in the coming weeks, and I have already committed to publishing the findings. The Home Secretary and I have always been clear that the first priority in tackling this heinous offending is getting perpetrators behind bars and getting justice for the victims and survivors. That is why all police forces in England and Wales have been asked to review historic grooming gangs investigations that were closed with no further action.

And to pursue new into inquiry and reopen investigations where appropriate. We are also going further than ever before to support local areas to hold independent local inquiries which can drive action and accountability at a local Inquiries in Telford, Rotherham and Manchester have delivered effectively. It is the approach we want to see rolled out elsewhere. In January we said we would support five local inquiries. We are moving ahead with that commitment. We have confirmed that funding will be made available to Oldham Council as part of this work.

Currently working with a range of experts to develop a best practice local inquiries framework so that local areas that conduct inquiries do so in a way that actually delivers justice, accountability, and truth. Commanding the support of victims and survivors. Our focus is on delivering meaningful tangible change for victims and survivors. That means delivering on key recommendations of Professor Jay's recommendations of Professor Jay's national inquiry. It means getting perpetrators behind bars, and most importantly of all, protecting children.

16:06

Rt Hon Chris Philp MP (Croydon South, Conservative)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. The whole nation is shocked by the rape gang scandal. Thousands of young teenage girls systematically raped over years by men of predominantly Pakistani heritage. Girls like Jane, who was repeatedly gang rapes the age of just 12. The police found her being abused by an illegal immigrant. Instead of arresting the illegal immigrants, they arrested her. That is sick. The last government took action by setting up the wider Jay Inquiry and the grooming gangs task force.

But the truth is that is not enough. There is no clear evidence that those in authority covered up these raids because the perpetrators were mainly of Pakistani heritage. Last week, I met a retired detective who in Bradford witnessed the abuse of a young girl in a car. But he was then instructed by a chief superintendent to drop the matter, to avoid antagonising Bradford's Muslim community. Covering up the rape of young girls for that reason is one of the most immoral things I have ever heard.

Yet not a single person, not one, has ever been held to account for these coverups. That is why we need a national statutory public inquiry which can compel production of evidence. Even last year, authorities in Manchester was still covering up, leading to the chairs of the local Manchester inquiry to resign. Five local inquiries which can't compel the production of evidence just won't do. 50 towns were affected not five. In Bradford, where some of the worst In Bradford, where some of the worst abuse occurred, is refusing to co- operate with any inquiry at all.

There's never been an inquiry in Bradford because the council is refusing to participate. The Home Secretary promised on 16 January that Baroness Casey would complete a rapid audit within three months. Three months has now passed and we have heard nothing whatsoever. The There would be five local inquiries but we know nothing about four of them. The man charged with setting up, Tom Crowther, said the Home Affairs Committee on the first of this month that he had been sidelined by the Minister over there and " Did not know what was going on.

" I recently met someone whose daughter was trafficked abused and

16:09

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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raped by mainly Asian men including in Bradford. He said this government should be ashamed of themselves and they should hold a national inquiry. they should hold a national inquiry. At 12, also wants a statutory national inquiry was the Labour mayor Andy Burnham, Harriet Harman, and that Labour MP for Rotherham, all agree. The Minister do what they all agree. The Minister do what they and Marlon and Jane are all asking

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and Marlon and Jane are all asking for, and hold that national inquiry, to those who covered up that scandal are at last held to account? Thank you Mr Speaker. I thank the shadow Home Secretary. I say that I don't need to read out the things that were found in other local inquiries to know because I speak to the victims. I spoke to some of the victims of grooming gangs this morning. I will speak to some more tomorrow. I have spoken to them from Oxford, from Birmingham, from Rochdale, from Rotherham, from Oldham.

I know exactly the issue of a cover-up, as does everybody already because of the many local inquiries that have told us that this happened. And the national inquiry that has told us that there were coverups. What we must focus on

16:10

Jake Richards MP (Rother Valley, Labour)

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is making sure, like happened in is making sure, like happened in Telford, that there is a local process of accountability that actually changes things on the actually changes things on the ground. And that is what I will do. ground. And that is what I will do. I have been trying to change the issue of this on the ground for all issue of this on the ground for all of my life. Since the very first time I ever met a girl who had been ignored.

I will continue to do that and do what is right for the victims.

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Thank you Mr Speaker. I genuinely welcome the renewed focus on this issue that has come in this Parliament. The Home Affairs Select Parliament. The Home Affairs Select Committee, we have heard evidence from Professor Jay who gave evidence

16:10

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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from Professor Jay who gave evidence to a committee about her report which made a number of recommendations in November 2022. She then set out her efforts to try and get the last Conservative government to act on any of those recommendations for a period of over 90 weeks. She spoke about begging Tutu Home Secretary to take action. She talked about talking to a former chief of staff who ignored her. Does the Minister agree with me that rather than words now, action is far more important?

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I absolutely agree that action is what is needed which is exactly why the Home Secretary has written to the Home Secretary has written to all police forces in England and Wales seeking to ensure that more arrests are made in these cases. And the grooming gang task force has, in the grooming gang task force has, in the last nine months made 599 arrests, surpassing the entire arrests, surpassing the entire previous year because we are so heavily focused on making sure that

16:11

Lisa Smart MP (Hazel Grove, Liberal Democrat)

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heavily focused on making sure that these people end up behind bars. I think Baroness Jay was ignored by the previous government. Had we had mandatory reporting 10 years ago

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when the current Home Secretary asked for it, perhaps more people would have been held accountable. Liberal Democrats Spokesperson.

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Liberal Democrats Spokesperson. Thank you. No child should ever

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Thank you. No child should ever endure sexual exportation or abuse. Such horrific and unacceptable crimes must have no place in our society. Victims and survivors of society. Victims and survivors of these crimes at the centre of our thoughts whenever we discuss these thoughts whenever we discuss these matters. We await to them not just to offer words of support but to to offer words of support but to deliver justice and bring firmness into account. It means taking firm

16:13

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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preventative action to prevent future generations from expressing harmful stop the independent inquiry harmful stop the independent inquiry led by Professor Alexis Jay 's recommendations in 2022. Could the Minister set out a clear timetable Minister set out a clear timetable for the full implementation of the Jay Inquiry's recommendations? And Jay Inquiry's recommendations? And does the Minister agree that duty of candour via the Hillsborough Law would bring transparency and accountability, so can the government commit to a timetable for delivering this?

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delivering this? I thank the honourable lady and agree with her that inquiries in all of this is only worth it if we crack on. That is why when I came before the house before the recess, I said we would go alongside publishing an action plan around the recommendations of the Jay Report and also the work into grooming gangs as part of that, it has all been published as part of a government plan. It is only the beginning.

And actually this is going to take years and years. With regard to the duty of candour, it seems appalling that we have to ask people to tell the truth and yet, here we are. Of course that is what we must be striving for. As she says, on behalf of the victims and survivors.

16:13

Chris Murray MP (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh, Labour)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. As we have heard when Alexis Jay came to the Home Affairs Committee, she was told how she had pushed and pushed for the implementation of her long wide-ranging report to be implemented and had heard nothing

16:14

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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back from the previous government. I welcome this Urgent Question today because this issue requires an urgency we did not see from the previous government. As someone who has worked on protecting the victims has worked on protecting the victims of child trafficking, I know we need local responses. But there is an element for a national coordination. element for a national coordination. Before recess, the government announced the child protection authority. Can she tell us more authority. Can she tell us more about the remit and role that it will have and ensuring that will have and ensuring that nationwide we clampdown on this horrific crime?

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As was outlined in Alexis Jay's report, the need for an overarching report, the need for an overarching authority to ensure accountability across the child protection system

16:14

Rt Hon Dame Karen Bradley MP (Staffordshire Moorlands, Conservative)

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across the child protection system was made very clear. As we roll out with the new authority, we are consulting many experts about exactly what that needs to look like. And ensuring we get the very very best possible. I am sick of hearing lessons learnt in a serious case review about a child rape or a child rape gang or child deaths. There needs to be genuine There needs to be genuine accountability, and things need to change.

16:15

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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Chair of the select committee.

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I agree with the Minister that this has to be victim centred. We must put victims at the heart of everything we do. Can she provide everything we do. Can she provide more information about when we will know about the remaining four locations? And also what will she do to ensure that councils that are to ensure that councils that are reluctant to be part of this are compelled to do so?

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compelled to do so? I thank her. Whilst we have committed to five, I expect to committed to five, I expect to actually go further. I will answer the question of when. The framework for what local authorities will be for what local authorities will be tasked with will be released later in May. As well Baroness Casey's review which I have committed to publishing. All of these things will

16:16

Cat Smith MP (Lancaster and Wyre, Labour)

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rely on each other. I can't stand here and say exactly, I don't know what Baroness Casey is going to say what Baroness Casey is going to say about this particular area. And what I might need to focus on. I'm going I might need to focus on. I'm going to know on the basis, and I have to say this debate, this doesn't happen say this debate, this doesn't happen very often. I'm going to go on the basis of facts. And I will follow basis of facts.

And I will follow them wherever they tell me. Wherever they tell me there are victims that

16:16

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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they tell me there are victims that

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Before being elected to this place, about four organisation, no my honourable friend before this my honourable friend before this place worked for a similar one. And place worked for a similar one. And it is important we keep those victims forefront in other victims forefront in other considerations. Can I ask, with the child protection authority, how she envisages her victims of crime may

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envisages her victims of crime may be supported by it? I thank the honourable lady. What

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I thank the honourable lady. What I hear from victims of crime who I speak to and have worked with for many years, she points out, is what they fundamentally want is they don't want the things that happened to them to have the children today, that is what they want, more than any sort of justice actually, that's the change they wish to see. So, it is ensuring the new authority actually does that it isn't just words on paper will be absolutely vital, and will deliver that fundamental victims need.

And we will make sure that when we say we will make sure that when we say we are consulting with experts, around the child protection authority, organisations like the NSPCC you organisations like the NSPCC you have panels of specialist victims who assist them in their work will be part of that.

16:18

Robbie Moore MP (Keighley and Ilkley, Conservative)

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Mr Speaker, in February, a brave group of victims and the leading child abuse lawyer wrote to the Home Secretary warning her that the rape gang scandal across the Bradford district is likely to be one of the most significant of its kind in the UK, that leaders in Bradford are literally, deliberately, seeking to avoid the commissioning of an in- depth inquiry, for fear of unearthing a very significant problem. The letter still sits with the Home Secretary and outlines the dreadful deadlock we are outside the

16:19

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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Bradford district. With a victim and support for inquiry but a council that is unwilling to commission one. that is unwilling to commission one. Can I ask the Minister does she believe that victims and families across the wider Bradford district across the wider Bradford district deserve a full rape gangs inquiry? If not, why not? And if he does, what powers will she use to over use what powers will she use to over use -- Overall Bradford Council if they continue to ignore victims wishes?

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continue to ignore victims wishes? As I have already said and I once again make praise to the honourable gentleman for raising this issue for a number of years, some have come to it more recently. I make an offer to him, as we have a meeting our diary, is that I would very much like to make those victims he is -- Meet those victims he is talking about and I will gladly sit and meet with them, and if local authorities are them, and if local authorities are found in the work, that Baroness Casey is doing, around the problem profile, about the police forces in profile, about the police forces in the country, if they going to have problems, I want him to know, he has problems, I want him to know, he has my guarantee, I will pursue them.

16:19

Paul Waugh MP (Rochdale, Labour )

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Mr Speaker, on Friday in

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Mr Speaker, on Friday in

16:19

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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Rochdale, I met with Jane Ward and the members of her sexual assault Centre in Manchester, that is formed by former police officers, nurses, social workers, all committed to helping the victims and survivors, particularly in areas like Rochdale, that have suffered from grooming and abuse. I asked what their priorities were? Their priorities are cutting the courts backlog, cases waiting March 2027 to go to trial, they have a commitment to help groups like theirs and they want a wider recognition that most sexual abuse and child rape is propagated not by

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strangers but by family and friends. Does my honourable friend agree though should be our priorities as well? I absolutely agree with every one

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I absolutely agree with every one of those asks of the organisation, of those asks of the organisation, the sexual assault referral Centre in Rochdale, and we are working, I am working very closely with my am working very closely with my colleague from the Ministry of Justice to try and do all of those things. Unfortunately, you cannot things. Unfortunately, you cannot mend a very, very broken system overnight. But I do think, Mr Speaker, it's very important for me to say here that it is horrible, the cases of grooming gangs that I have come across are some of the worst I

16:21

Lee Anderson MP (Ashfield, Reform UK)

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have ever seen and yet, I think that sometimes we do forget how harrowing sometimes we do forget how harrowing it is for children who have been raped by their fathers, raped by stepfathers, wrecked by people

16:21

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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stepfathers, wrecked by people insurance institutions -- Raped by insurance institutions -- Raped by people in children's institutions and they all, there is no hierarchy, they all deserve our care and dedication to making action for them.

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them. Thousands of young white British girls have been raped, tortured and abused by Pakistani gangs, and this minister here reviews as support for a national public inquiry, I want to know issue part of the cover-up? -- Is she part of the cover-up?

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It really doesn't deserve a response and I actually quite like the honourable gentleman. I have the honourable gentleman. I have spent my entire career... I wonder

16:22

Emily Darlington MP (Milton Keynes Central, Labour)

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spent my entire career... I wonder how many victims he has sat and held hands with in court, of grooming gangs. How many he has gone out of their house in the morning to get them out of bed and into a courtroom, there is absolutely no way that I would be part of any cover-up. I will do everything I can underrate Home Secretary that will do everything she can to make sure

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accountable. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Firstly, I

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Thank you, Mr Speaker. Firstly, I would like to thank the front bench today. These are three incredible, today. These are three incredible, formidable women who have not just learned that this is an issue, but

16:23

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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learned that this is an issue, but have been working and campaigning on this issue for their entire lives and have come to this place to create change. I wanted to raise the fact that 88% increase of online grooming happened since 2022. 81% of those are young women and girls. Does she think that social media companies are doing enough? And if you think the police understand the nature of online grooming enough to be able to protect young people from

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this? I thank the honourable lady and actually, she raises a very important point. Because often here important point. Because often here we are talking about historic cover-ups and failings of the past, cover-ups and failings of the past, whilst we also have to keep our eye on exactly where grooming is going on now and in the future. As she on now and in the future. As she absolutely points out, completely rightly, there is an online grooming issue. And what I would say is I have seen really great examples through the taskforce and worked with various different security

16:23

Dr Luke Evans MP (Hinckley and Bosworth, Conservative)

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with various different security departments about quite how focused the police enforcement is on this. Do I think social media companies could be doing more? The answer will

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always be yes. Thank you, Mr Speaker. In her opening answer, the Minister says she is determined to get to the she is determined to get to the

16:24

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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truth, she also listed of people who could potentially be caught cover- ups. Politicians, police, councillors. There are five potential inquiries, therapy 50 child grooming gangs, so how does this work if the councils don't have The councils do not want to take part? She said she will do everything she possibly can, she could change the law and get back in fungicide, to make it a compulsion for people to have to give evidence

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in these kinds of cases, would she consider doing that? As I said, I will consider the situation as it unfolds, but what I

16:24

Anna Dixon MP (Shipley, Labour)

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situation as it unfolds, but what I would say with the amount of money this government is allocating to do local inquiries is that that was... And from a sedentary position, the shadow Home Secretary says it is not enough. But it is millions more than the zero that the previous government allocated, and when Oldham and Telford wrote to the previous government and asked for help, the answer came there, none. So, I will follow the leads that are

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left for me. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The crime

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Thank you, Mr Speaker. The crime of group based sexual abuse is among the most heinous crimes. Our priority must always here be to priority must always here be to listen to victims and survivors, I recently attended an event, organised by West Yorkshire's mayor

16:25

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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organised by West Yorkshire's mayor Deputy mayor and police Commissioner, where I had the opportunity to meet victims and survivors, as well as fantastic organisations, such as Rape Bradford, document my honourable friend, the Minister, for her brave and tireless work to get justice for victims and survivors, to challenge those and for her commitment to implement the inquiry in full. Can she assure me and my constituents that as well as bringing perpetrators to justice, she will support work to prevent such heinous crimes happening again in the future? Thank you.

future? Thank you.

16:26

Tom Gordon MP (Harrogate and Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

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Absolutely, and I say that with the voice of the victims I have worked with over the years and spoken to even today, that the fundamental they want is for children to come forward today to their teacher, social worker, to whoever it is, that they do not suffer the same and keeping our eye on making sure those are held accountable for the past. It will only deliver justice, if we also only deliver justice, if we also look at the mall. -- At the now.

look at the mall. -- At the now.

16:27

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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The ministers outlined money for local inquiries I just wonder if she might be able to comment on resources made available for people who might come forward as a result of those local inquiries. Obviously, there is a backlog of mental health and supporting talking therapies and all sorts of resources that people who have been through these experiences may require a often provided by local authorities, health bodies and charities whose funding is under pressure. I wonder

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if you might be able to elaborate on that. Absolutely agree, and so as part

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Absolutely agree, and so as part of... I remember working in a Rape Crisis when the Jimmy Savile scandal Crisis when the Jimmy Savile scandal happened and it was like being hit by a Nami, the phone lines lit up. The response, as I said before Easter, to the inquiry, making sure Easter, to the inquiry, making sure we have robust support for the children victims, is important, but also doubling the amount of money for adult historic rape victims recognising we may bring more people forward and therefore need to improve the access.

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I would like to thank my honourable friend for all of her work and commitment over many, many years. Can she confirm the government is committed to building this with survivors, my heart goes out to them. But disagree with me

16:28

Neil O'Brien MP (Harborough, Oadby and Wigston, Conservative)

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out to them. But disagree with me the focus on tackling violence against women and girls will turn the tide and shed a light, so might be in the best disinfectant.

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Absolutely, there are systematic problems with how women and girls problems with how women and girls are treated, whether that is by cover-ups being ignored, I'm afraid to say, there is still a cultural to say, there is still a cultural sense that women still feel like if they come forward, will they be believed? And so, we have to fundamentally look at all the systems across the government, which myself and my colleague, leading on

16:28

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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myself and my colleague, leading on the violence against women and girls strategy will do.

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Mr Speaker, the government is blocking a national inquiry into the blocking a national inquiry into the rape gangs and says we should instead have five local inquiries. But we know there have been 50 places where these things happen. In places where these things happen. In some of those places like Bradford, the council is blocking a local inquiry and often, locals don't have the powers they need. Indeed, this whole story began when Oldham Council wrote after the election to the Minister asking for the national powers they needed.

Why did the Minister refused to meet with them?

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I appreciate that this is where the whole story began for the honourable gentleman. It is not where the whole story began, Oldham Council had written, I believe, Council had written, I believe, twice before to the previous government, as had Telford, written to the previous government. So, I am afraid to say for me, this story started...

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started... Order. To say simply untruths, I think we have to get this right. The point of order is not

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correct, Oldham Council had written to the last government, Oldham council had not, that is the whole point. I am sure if there has been a

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mistake, the Minister will correct that. Minister. I will check the record and make sure, but what I am absolutely sure, but what I am absolutely certain of is the number of times that Telford Council wrote and that Telford Council wrote and I am not aware that Rotherham, in fact I am aware that not Rotherham, not Rochdale, not Telford, not Oxford, not any of the places that have had an inquiry has ever been have had an inquiry has ever been given a single beam by the previous government to do that work.

And yet, here we are and we will do it.

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Thank you, Mr Speaker. Communities, however resilient, still bear the scars of these still bear the scars of these appalling and cavity act and I'm grateful to the Minister for her continued engagement in resolving continued engagement in resolving and addressing the true legacy of these crimes. What steps are being taken by her department to learn from the healthcare practitioners, from the healthcare practitioners, support workers and others who are active the time of these crimes and initial inquiries, to make sure they initial inquiries, to make sure they can provide their insight and expertise to perform efforts to

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secure justice for women and girls? Thank you, I commend her work and I know she is coming to see me with some of those healthcare workers. A woman, who I know well. Who are working in sexual health services was one of the whistleblowers in the

16:31

Rupert Lowe MP (Great Yarmouth, Independent)

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Mandatory duty to report will go

16:31

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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Mandatory duty to report will go some way but changing the culture of ensuring that people are listened to and heard, in the health setting they know this better, this is

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something we will be learning. Despite multiple promises of enquiries from political parties across this House, it seems that the only operational investigation will be the rape gang enquiry which I privately launched. It has garnered cross party support and I implore MPs from any political persuasion to align with our cause. Will the Minister, today, committed to engaging in a cooperative manner with the investigation and make

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herself available to answer the questions from our expert panel? What I would say to the

16:32

Adam Thompson MP (Erewash, Labour)

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What I would say to the honourable gentleman is that I delight in his interest in this and delight in his interest in this and what I would say to every single member in this House is that I will work with absolutely anybody to make this better. And I am more than happy to meet with him and talk about any level of corporation because if any -- if people are genuinely here to try and stop the grooming gangs, I am genuinely here grooming gangs, I am genuinely here to help.

16:33

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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The Minister confirmed today that the Casey Review will be published in May, can I welcome that, but can I ask whether she can elaborate on whether she expects the review, given that it is going to explain the next stages of the process, while it cannot include... While she cannot preface the review, can she explain if she expects it to include a framework for conducting

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enquiries. I absolutely do not expect it to

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I absolutely do not expect it to do that, what Baroness Casey is seeking to do is an audit on the problem profiles around the country. And looking at exactly where the

16:33

Rt Hon Richard Holden MP (Basildon and Billericay, Conservative)

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data doesn't exist, where there are failings, it was intended to be a rapid audit. The framework for good local enquiries is being worked on by a series of experts, including Tom Crowder and people like Alexis J, and the fund that local authorities can apply to will also be published by the end of May.

16:34

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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Thank you, I am sure that the Minister shares my concerns that no one has been convicted of covering up the horrendous crimes, including gang rape. What is the plan to ensure that people are held to account, it is clear, as the Minister said, these coverups perpetuated these crimes, not just historically but through crimes continuing to happen to this very day.

16:34

Sean Woodcock MP (Banbury, Labour)

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I totally agree, I wish to see people who cover this up... I wish to see them held accountable within them too that exist. If people have concerns about things and would like to bring them forward, on specific cases, we have the power currently to investigate those things. Obviously within the law as it exists. There are mandatory reporting laws, have existed sooner we might be in a better situation. But I agree, it is appalling that nobody has been held to account.

16:35

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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Can I thank my honourable friend for the continuous hard work she put into this issue. I particularly welcome the commitment to introduce mandatory reporting. Something that was recommended 11 years ago but the current Prime Minister, as outgoing director of public prosecutions, accepted by the then promised, we had to go through more Tory ministers and home secretaries before it could be prevented by this government. She has my whole support on this matter. And continue and carry on the good work.

16:35

Ayoub Khan MP (Birmingham Perry Barr, Independent)

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Thank you. child sex liquidation is a vile crime. It cuts across all sections of our community. Perpetrated by

16:36

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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individuals with blackened souls. They come from all races, all creeds, religions and backgrounds. All law-abiding citizens want justice for the victims of these justice for the victims of these acts. Will the Minister agree that acts. Will the Minister agree that our focus must be on supporting the victims and stopping the perpetrators but it must be done in perpetrators but it must be done in such a way that does not bring hate to innocent groups of people who to innocent groups of people who would like all law-abiding citizens to condemn these acts.

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Of course, I agree. I want to see perpetrators had accountable. What I

16:36

Gregor Poynton MP (Livingston, Labour)

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perpetrators had accountable. What I can say, without any doubt, in the past, there have been people who... As local enquiries have told us, people have covered up for seemingly, when asked to or not, cultural regions -- cultural reasons. That cannot stand. That said, we will always follow the facts and make sure we are dealing with that.

16:37

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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Thank you, I strongly welcome the commissioning of Baroness Casey to conduct the National Audit Office can the Minister confirm if the growing prevalence of online sexual exposition of children will form part of that and can she provide an update on what the Home Office

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response is to this growing crime? Online based women, some terrible

16:37

Charlie Dewhirst MP (Bridlington and The Wolds, Conservative)

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instances of children globally being groomed, or children being groomed abroad or vice versa, that is something we are aware of. Whether it will form part of what Baroness Casey finds, I shall leave to Baroness Casey to say, but what I will say is, it forms part of the strategy of work for preventing child sexual abuse. child sexual abuse.

16:38

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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Thank you, I am concerned that some of the people involved in these Local Authority enquiries could be very same who have covered up these heinous crimes for years. Will the Minister... Why is the Minister so unwilling to seek justice through a

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national statutory enquiry. I want to be clear, local

16:38

Laura Kyrke-Smith MP (Aylesbury, Labour)

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I want to be clear, local enquiries have to be independent. enquiries have to be independent. The independent chair of the Telford enquiry or Baroness... Sorry, FSA Alexis J was the chair of the Rotherham enquiry. They are independent enquiries and they are

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not run by the authorities. Last week, Ike caught up with a

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Last week, Ike caught up with a charity which supports victims and survivors of child exploitation. We

16:39

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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survivors of child exploitation. We discussed the ways in which the trauma remains with these victims and how important accountability is for them. Can my constituents who have suffered from this appalling abuse need closure and any change and I pay tribute to the Minister for her vital and persistent work to establish the local enquiries. Can she set out further examples of what

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areas like mine can do to ensure that the perpetrators are brought to justice. I thank my honourable friend. What I would say, the grooming gangs What I would say, the grooming gangs task force that will work with the police force areas, the whole point is that they will work to ensure best practice with local police forces, that has led to this

16:40

Jim Allister KC MP (North Antrim, Traditional Unionist Voice)

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forces, that has led to this increase of nearly... Since it was set up 1,100 arrests in group based child sex abuse. There is a huge amount in that the centre and I would encourage local areas and police forces always to be working with.

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Something fundamentally flawed with a process of local enquiries,

16:40

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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with a process of local enquiries, if the option of holding the enquiry rest with the authority. Isn't there rest with the authority. Isn't there equally something out of kilter with the government approach to public enquiries? It is about to spend two 210s of millions of pounds on a public enquiry. To this national scandal.

16:41

Katrina Murray MP (Cumbernauld and Kirkintilloch, Labour)

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I thank the Alba gentlemen, I will not answer the point that I think is likely from this particular Urgent Question but what I will say is, I wonder if he has read the 200 page document, optional enquiry into group based child sexual abuse, that already exists and has statutory powers and if not, I would really encourage people to do that.

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Thank you, I thank my honourable friend for the response to the friend for the response to the questions. As has often been said, child sexual abuse happens across

16:41

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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child sexual abuse happens across all sections of society. Two girls and boys. There is no hierarchy in victims. As the Minister has already said, every single one of those young people comes into contact with people on a daily basis who have the power to change their lives for the better. What work is being done in advance of the reporting to work with the professional bodies who register those professionals to ensure this can happen?

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I thank the under lady for mentioning boys and giving me the mentioning boys and giving me the opportunity, I made a promise to one of the all of victims, when I met her, that I would always say this was a grooming gang that could happen to boys and girls. Because it happen to boys and girls. Because it was her son who lost his life. What

16:42

Sir Ashley Fox MP (Bridgwater, Conservative)

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was her son who lost his life. What I would say, in preparation, there will be a delay to the rolling out of reporting because making sure that the guidance and the regulation that sits behind it and the training that will have to be put in place... Not so much necessarily for social workers, et cetera, but we are talking about sports coaches, volunteers, there is huge numbers of institutions that work with children and getting this right rather than and getting this right rather than rushing it is the most important thing.

16:43

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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My constituents are horrified by the government failure to order a national enquiry. Does the Minister share the concerns raised by Sir Trevor Phillips that the decisions made by government appear to be obviously designed to avoid offending Muslim voters of Pakistani

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origin? What I would say is, politically,

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What I would say is, politically, the easiest thing for me to have done in this situation would have done in this situation would have been to capitulate but I do not think it is the right thing to do. I think it is the right thing to do. I believe that... I believe, from my years of work and speaking to the victims and working in Telford with

16:43

James McMurdock MP (South Basildon and East Thurrock, Reform UK)

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victims and working in Telford with those victims, about what changed afterwards, I believe, genuinely, I would not do it, I would not stand here if I did not believe it. The idea that I am trying to protect something of myself... This process has brought, have to say, it has not been protecting of me. There is absolutely... It is frankly a disgraceful thing to say.

16:44

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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Thank you, this is clearly a deeply distressing topic that affects the whole House. I fully accept that the Minister is affected as much as anybody. That being said, it is not clear to me, you would not do anything within your power to get to the bottom of this. That includes a full national enquiry and all the power that comes with it. Can you explain why we will not have that and why you see that having that as capitulating?

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The reason I think what we have laid out is better is because it is about taking action now. In areas

16:45

Joy Morrissey MP (Beaconsfield, Conservative)

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about taking action now. In areas where it is needed. A national enquiry, we only had, it took seven years and wrote a 200 page dossier on group based sexual abuse, there was a 200 page dossier specifically on that, it took two years just to do that. It made really good recommendations, I genuinely believe the best thing for me to do is to crack on with doing those.

16:45

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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Thank you, can the Minister provide assurances as to how the government is going to compel councils like Bradford, who have refused to participate in enquiry, this might seem self-evident, councils that are going to be liable for child protection, who are probably going to found to be at probably going to found to be at fault, are probably not going to be wanting to participate in a local enquiry, that is why we are asking for a national enquiry. What will the government do to compel those councils to give evidence so that justice can be served?

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I shall wait for the review, being undertaken by Baroness Casey, and what it tells me, and I will act

16:46

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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and what it tells me, and I will act Can I thank the Minister for her

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Can I thank the Minister for her answers. The Minister has spoken at length on this issue, and I thank her for the care and consideration. The Minister will know I always try to be respectful and therefore my question is one that has to be asked. What remains clear is that

16:47

Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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there is a public perception that there is a public perception that government is drawing a line under items that do not deserve to be forgotten. In order to learn the forgotten. In order to learn the lessons that have to be taught, I believe neither full and open investigation, and government must investigation, and government must pacify the general public. We have an obligation to society. And also to the vulnerable of our society. to the vulnerable of our society. Would the Minister confirmed the investigation will be public and it

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investigation will be public and it will meet the scale of these issues? I appreciate his desire to always be respectful and I shall pay it back in kind and say that there is absolutely no way that the government wishes for the past to be forgotten. For a line to be drawn. That is absolutely the opposite of what I want. I want every single perpetrator rounded up and locked up. I want every single victim to feel supported.

And I want everybody who covered it up to be held

16:48

Points of Order Rt Hon Mark Francois MP (Rayleigh and Wickford, Conservative)

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accountable for that. Because the accountable for that. Because the chuntering of those who don't always show respect, the shadow home secretary, what I would say is the idea that people are held accountable by public inquiries is not the case. Nobody has gone to prison following the Hillsborough prison following the Hillsborough inquiry. The blood inquiry, anyone gone to prison? No. So be careful

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what you are promising. That concludes the Urgent Question.

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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. I wish to raise a point of order. All of us in this house no Mr Speaker has a deep personal commitment to the safety of Members commitment to the safety of Members of Parliament and their families. In of Parliament and their families. In that context, video has emerged this weekend of a concert held in London weekend of a concert held in London some months ago, at which an Irish some months ago, at which an Irish Republican band called " Kneecap.

" Told a cheering audience that, and I quote directly from the clip, " The quote directly from the clip, " The only good Tory is a dead Tory. " And they then implored their audience, " Kill your local MP. " I am not a lawyer. But to my mind, this is incitement to murder. And quite rightly, the anti-terrorist police are now investigating. This is beyond despicable. And I say that looking across the chamber at the plaque of our former comrade Sir David Amess, and the one behind me, to a fallen comrade, Jo Cox.

This is across all parties. They both died serving their constituents. May I ask through you Madame Deputy Speaker, of Mr Speaker three things. One, that the Home Secretary should come to this house by no later than tomorrow and make a full statement on what the government understand has happened here. And exactly what they intend to do about it. To protect all those in public life, not just MPs and their families, secondly, that the Secretary of State for DCMS who I see is in her place should also give a public explanation, ideally via a statement, of how it came to pass that this band were given some that this band were given some £14,000 of British taxpayers money., You don't normally heckle points of order, but if you are going to do that, our leader Kemi Badenoch refused it, they appealed and your government did not oppose the appeal.

Those are the facts. So could you please explain to us how exactly that happened. I did not want to make this bipartisan but you interrupted me. And thirdly, and sorry, how we can get the money back. And thirdly, I understand that Kneecap are still booked to appear at Glastonbury which, under the circumstances, would be unconscionable. As the speaker is chairing a Speaker's Conference on MPs safety, could we implore him

16:52

Judith Cummins MP (Bradford South, Labour)

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through you Madame Deputy Speaker to write to the organisers of the write to the organisers of the Glastonbury Festival and say that this House does not think it is appropriate that Kneecap should be appropriate that Kneecap should be allowed to appear at least until the investigation is completed. I ask investigation is completed. I ask this, if I may, on behalf of all of

16:52

Points of Order Alan Gemmell MP (Central Ayrshire, Labour)

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this, if I may, on behalf of all of us and all of our families. I hope Madame Deputy Speaker that is not unreasonable.

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unreasonable. I am grateful to the right honourable Member for giving notice of some aspects of the point of order. As he knows, we do not discuss security matters on the floor of the House but I do floor of the House but I do understand the police are investigating these incidents. I have had no indication that ministers intend to come to the house to make a statement but the right honourable gentleman has put right honourable gentleman has put his point on the record.

point of order.

16:53

Points of Order Gregory Stafford MP (Farnham and Bordon, Conservative)

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Can I seek your advice on how to put on record my concerns and those of my constituents about worrying allegations that we can press about the awarding of contracts by the

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Conservative leader of a council? That is not a matter for the chair. But you're a member has put chair. But you're a member has put his point on the record.

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Point of order. Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker.

16:53

Judith Cummins MP (Bradford South, Labour)

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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. There are concerns about changing healthcare provision and meeting the needs of the local population in my constituency. I wrote to the secretary of state on January 28 about this issue and specifically about the future of the Chase community Hospital. Three months to the day later I've still received no response to that letter. Refusal of the secretary of state to engage in my constituents is concerning. So I seek your guidance on securing a ministerial response about the proposals.

16:54

Points of Order Jacob Collier MP (Burton and Uttoxeter, Labour)

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I am grateful to the honourable Member for his point of order and for giving notice of it. Ministerial correspondence is not a matter for the chair. All honourable members should be entitled to expect a timely reply they write to any member of the government. I'm sure that the Treasury bench have heard the honourable member's comments. Point of order Jacob Collier.

16:54

Points of Order Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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At Business Questions last week I asked the question relating to JCBs hydrogen diggers top given they have been a sponsor of my constituency jobs fair, I should have referred the house to my register of interests. I'm thinking my guidance

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and I can correct the record. I that your member voice point of order and for notice of it and for

16:54

Judith Cummins MP (Bradford South, Labour)

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order and for notice of it and for putting his point on the record. Point of order Jim Shannon.

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Just to say that we in Northern Ireland are equally concerned about the threats to Conservative MPs or the threats to Conservative MPs or any MP in this house we are also concerned about whether they get concerned about whether they get funding from here or from back home. We are also concerned about the ability of that particular group, Kneecap to travel across America. Would the Minister come and make a Would the Minister come and make a statement and all those issues that statement and all those issues that concern all of us who represent

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Northern Ireland. I thank the honourable gentleman

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I thank the honourable gentleman for his point of order. It is not a point of order. However, he has put his point on the record and you may want to make a further point to the

16:55

Legislation: Football Governance Bill [Lords]: Second reading

The The clerk The clerk will The clerk will now The clerk will now proceed The clerk will now proceed to The clerk will now proceed to read The clerk will now proceed to read the orders of the day.

16:56

Rt Hon Lisa Nandy MP, The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Wigan, Labour)

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17:29

Rt Hon Stuart Andrew MP (Daventry, Conservative)

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17:51

Chris Evans MP (Caerphilly, Labour )

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honourable Member opposite, an account of as a friend. But I do believe his speech was hysterical at some point. He has made another claim that UEFA could ban English teams from competition. He knows that is wrong. The fact is UEFA would have made the statement by now but have not. They have not opposed. They are not going to ban English clubs from European competitions. It is a fallacy to say that. I'm embarrassed not any that your judgement is being forced to come here by his leader and move an amendment against the bill that was introduced and endorsed by the party opposite.

It means they lose credibility and cannot bring about a bill that we can all unite behind. I want to move on and I have to raise an interest. I am the author of that great biography. And what I discovered in research of the book is how much football has come on in the days when the footballer was lifting Championships in 1934 and 96. Football was not a place you wanted to take fans. Because the fans rampaging through cities.

It was not a place where you want to go to stadiums, often crumbling, and violence and vandalism. There are countless examples of clubs being banned. I take issue, I'm not singling him out, but he says he believes passionately in football. It's a pity the Conservative government of the 1980s did not believe that. What they believed the solution to hooliganism was penning our fans in in electrifying fences and we saw the tragic results of that. That is what Mrs Thatcher believed.

He does not believe that I would urge him to read views on Margaret Thatcher she did not like the game. Football only turned a corner in the 1990s. It is ironic that the Premier League is endorsing any form of breakaway leaks in the future stop it was a broke breakaway league itself in 1992 when it broke away from the EFL. The Premier League has become the most watched game across the world. £1.5 billion across 189 countries watch the game at the moment.

The global success story begins at home. Huge amount is contributed every year supporting us 100,000 jobs. It is a success.

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Can I commend the audible gentleman for his wise words and gentleman for his wise words and setting the scene so well. Does he share my concern, the concern that the Premier League is very much a rich man's world, where tickets are rich man's world, where tickets are £1000 per person per season. I am a £1000 per person per season. I am a Leicester City man. Last season three went up in three went down. Does he share my concern that the Does he share my concern that the gap between the Premier League and the championship is becoming too great, and the gap between the championship and the first and second division is also becoming too great? Does he think it is time for

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the Premier League to share some of their wealth? I think the Premier League does

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I think the Premier League does have responsivity to share it well. What is quite interesting is this is What is quite interesting is this is the second year running that the promoted clubs have gone straight back down. The gap between West Ham and Ipswich is huge. There are and Ipswich is huge. There are issues we have to look at. I will turn to the bill. The new turn to the bill. The new turn to the bill. The new legislation, even though I'm broadly supportive of it it does not mean I don't have reservations.

I hope today the Minister can bring some comfort to those. The new legislation has a licensing regime requiring clubs to satisfy the football regulator that they have sound core processes in place that will provide civility. The licensing concerns because the it is OK for the likes of Manchester United, Liverpool, Tottenham, Arsenal, in traditional top six bracket. They will have people in place that can bring about a licensing regime that they can comply with. Not so if you are a smaller club.

It puts unnecessary burdens on. And therefore it needs to be addressed within the bill. I hope the

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government will bring that about. I thank my honourable friend for

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I thank my honourable friend for giving way. I raised the issue of Leeds United. He talks about the top six. Is it not true that Leeds United could have found themselves United could have found themselves in the top six if it had not been for bad ownership and bad financial decisions and that is what this bill seeks to deal with?

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The name is blackened in Leeds and Arsenal and wherever he has and Arsenal and wherever he has been. We forget about the early 2000 square overspending on certain players, massive wages, and it was ultimately trying to ring about success for the club but it failed. And when it started failing there were no safeguards in place. He is right on that. I hope that we both will be salivating a top four finish next season and we will be back in the next division for the first time.

The huge issue I have with this bill, this is a framework piece of legislation. When the Independent Football Regulator does come about, they will have to set up rules and guidance. This will run to hundreds of pages and take time. The government must specify what regulations are needed. It must also set out a timetable for when the framework piece of legislation is recognised, and done in a way that is not affect the future of clubs. Many of these clubs are small but have to plan for the future.

I hope there is a strict timetable put in place and issues for the clubs. To turn to concerns about the bill, I've already talked about the UEFA scheme from the party opposite. But somehow English clubs will be banned from Europe, hope I have reflected on the issue. The second is that the owners test might encourage more for some owners to sell the club. The new test in the bill developed a test already applied the Premier League and EFL to date.

The more significant changes are likely to merge in the longer term as we see more guidance, from the IFR to how it applies to the test in practice. It is also important to bear in mind the bill is the test on the new owners purchasing the club rather than owners already in place. It is possible that some might find themselves subject to the IFR applying the test, and raising concerns about the suitability. I hope it is addressed in Committee stage and amendments moved to address this.

I want to turn to what I believe, I do broadly support the bill. But I want to turn to something which I think does need to be addressed. It was addressed by the former leader of the Liberal Democrats earlier. Throughout writing the book by Don Reid, I met many of the players, but I got talking and I met with his son, Michael, and his cousin, John Michael, and his cousin, John styles, who is the son of Nobby Styles.

Unfortunate that so many professionals he has dementia, unlike so many other World Cup winning side has succumbed to that terrible disease. Football families for justice have campaigned on this, and footballers suffer neurodegenerative diseases at four or five times the national average. CTE usually suffered by boxers from blows to the head is five times the national average. Motor neurone disease would claims the life of my hero John, is four times the national average. This needs to be investigated.

The role of the FFJ is important. We asked them to meet the requirements of these victims with respect and kindness, through best in class support to include care costs and help for financial widows as required. I hope when the football regulators come about it is part of the remit, research into mental conditions, and those people who have given so much pleasure to so many people over the years. People who have been heroes. And when the football regulator does come about, it is not just leagues that they investigate but the professional football Association and the weight is run as a trade union.

We have serious concerns about the pay of the Chief Executive. There have been serious concerns about the way the union has been run. I hope the remit of the football regulator will look at this. I hope it is something we can do, as the tragedy of people like Nobby Styles and Bobby Charlton, and the names that trip off the tongue, and successes like Harry Kane, do not suffer like this. I think this is a good bill. I'm disappointed that the party opposite, even though it is also identical, have decided to take some crazy decision they have.

I'm sure that, I do believe the opposition spokesman does in his heart support this bill. I think they have been other forces, the leader of the Conservative party has leader of the Conservative party has

18:01

Max Wilkinson MP (Cheltenham, Liberal Democrat)

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18:15

Mr Clive Betts MP (Sheffield South East, Labour)

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potential to include parachute payments when the regulator comes to payments when the regulator comes to a view about what the distribution should be. Instead of simply ignoring parachute payments, pretending they don't exist, as the pretending they don't exist, as the previous Bill did come this recognises the problem that, recognises the problem that, currently, 92% of the funding for currently, 92% of the funding for football, goes to 25 of the clubs. The Premier League clubs and the clubs receiving parachute payments. clubs receiving parachute payments.

Those receiving parachute payments have 10 times the amount of resources as the clubs are getting payments in the solidarity fund form the Premier League. This is nonsense. We can see the difference between the championship and the We can see that all three relegated clubs have been promoted straight back. And the difference of their points total and West Ham just above them. This is not sustainable. It is not sustainable at that level all going down the leagues, as clubs simply struggle to survive.

That's distributional funding...

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One of the biggest challenges we have is that the English Premier League is the best in the world. League is the best in the world. Every bar you go into across the world is wanting to show Premier League football. There is a real danger here that we are killing the golden goose by trying to pull that down. If you look at the down. If you look at the championship for example, it is the seventh most valuable league in Europe. And that is considering it Europe.

And that is considering it is our second tier. My big worry here is that actually look at the here is that actually look at the way England is playing. Look at the way the clubs have come up. Take Leicester winning in 2016. Take the likes of Brighton and Brentford and Nottingham Forest flying up the league. It is a competitive league and what we want to see. We do not want to overregulated and kill both our national game and an international presence.

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I'm sorry, let's kill this myth that somehow this bill is going to kill the Premier League. It is Not. Let's look at the resources the Premier League has. It has twice as much money as any other major much money as any other major European league. That is the difference. Taking a proportion of that away to support the rest of the pyramid is not going to undermine and destroy the Premier League. It will help sustain the rest of the will help sustain the rest of the pyramid.

That is the message we need to get across. Just to go on about the rest of the bill. The issue of sustainability of the pyramid is absolutely key. I'm still a bit wary of the logistics of the powers. I think there is some room for debate about offering more flexibility to the regulator that is hopefully something we can discuss committee. The other key elements are about ownership. We have heard stories and no doubt will helm him more about the problems some clubs have had with owners that are not fit for purpose and been talking to colleagues in Redding, they came on a teams call with me and Sheffield MPs to talk about their problems to Sheffield Wednesday supporters and we should stop those clubs having to face those problems in the future.

We have an owner who is not a bad man. He spent a lot of money on the club has not ripped the club. He is clearly running out of money to make the club sustainable. He could not pay the players wages last month. He could not pay the tax dues a few weeks ago. And another failure to pay will mean the club are subject to a transfer embargo for three transfer windows. I completely undermined both the competitive and that financial basis of the club.

That is not acceptable. The owner, he's the only director. He does not have a Board of Directors was top he has no chief executive of the run the club from Thailand by remote control. When he can't pay the bills he said that the companies are owed money and he has not got money to pay the club's bills. We don't know what companies those are in Thailand. As far as we can see there are no companies that are owed money because the suspect the money comes from the family trust that owns other brands.

In other words he is reliant on his family members to give them the money to pay the players wages. That is not sustainable going forward. The fact that this bill allows the regulator, compels the regulator, to make sure that owners have the funds to sustain the club going forward and the source of those funds, so it is transparent and open for all to see, is absently key. Not many for Sheffield Wednesday but lots of other clubs as well. And finally one concern I have got.

The owner is in other clubs has separated things, I don't thing it was for malevolent reasons but to get round the fair play rules. They are separate and other clubs have that problem as well. I know in future, he wants to separate the club and the ground, and the regular can step in and make sure that is for proper reasons and done in a proper way. When the ground is already separated from the ownership of the club, there is a challenge.

I would like to see in addition to the bill, that says in order to get a licence, the owner does not really have to prove they have the financial funds going forward, they have a ground to play on going forward. And lock Latin in that way. I think there are changes that can be made. But let's just say, this is a bill that really helps football. It helps fans in the end to make sure their club sustainable going forward, hold owners to account.

It is great that the fans now are going to have a real role in involvement in their club going forward. Be properly consulted, and there is an engagement panel for fans. The chairman chooses who goes on it and when you go on the engagement panel, you have to sign a statement to say you won't talk about outside what has been discussed. What sort of accountability is that? It is a nonsense was the this bill will strengthen the hand of fans to be properly engaged with their club, I thoroughly supported and hope the

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House passes it overwhelmingly. Chair of the select committee.

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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. I suppose I want to start my comments not as the chair of the comments not as the chair of the select committee but as a football fan and apologies to the member for fan and apologies to the member for Cheltenham and Great Yarmouth. And

18:22

Dame Caroline Dinenage MP (Gosport, Conservative)

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as such I think I understand very strongly what a football club means to a community, what it means to a local way of life, what it means to the fans and most particularly what they will do to protect it. In the five years that followed Portsmouth's fantastic FA Cup victory in 2008, we really went through the ringer. The club boardroom seem to have a revolving door. We had a succession of different owners, each worse than the other, and went into administration twice.

On two occasions it had a 10 point deduction, and Robbie suffered three relegations in four seasons. I saw what that did to the city of birth, and to the fans that feel strongly about the club as I do. The club was pulled back from the brink of oblivion by the largest fan-led buyout in history. Fans literally at their money where their mouth is. They had to because the club was at risk of extinction and the supporters trust was formed.

2300 fans invested their own money and became shareholders raising about £2.5 million. And remarkably under that fan-led ownership model, the trust was able to declare the club debt free in September 2014 just 18 months after taking over. I know that not all clubs are so lucky because time and time again we have seen and heard around this room the stories of clubs falling into the hands of one scrupulous owners who had little regard or care for their club's history or what it means to that local community.

And you just don't listen to the fans who we all know literally the blood that runs through the veins of our football clubs up and down the country. So I guess it was that alongside the spectre of European Super League that previous government had in mind when they commissioned that Fan-Led Review, Captain separately by my friend Dame Tracey Crouch, who was pivotal in the genesis of this bill. I hope that this rebooted bill just as much as its previous iterations it will protect English football and keep clubs at the beating heart of their communities.

Some of the government's changes to the legislation echoed the previous recommendations of the committee of Culture, Media and Sport. Firstly on enhanced fan engagement was the no English football fans are some of the most passionate in the world and their voices must be heard. For too long they have been left in the dark when it comes to decisions on ticket pricing, on the home shirt colour changes, and on home ground relocation. So I welcome the bill's commitment towards this was not I also welcome the removal of the requirement for the regulated to consider foreign government trade policy when considering whether to approve takeovers.

It must demonstrate the regulator's operational independence from government. I want to return to this in a minute. We have seen some controversy around other aspects of the bill particularly around the inclusion of parachute payments in the final distribution mechanism. That has inevitably sparked hostility towards the bill. I think you could have 10 different people in a room and they will have 10 different opinions about how parachute payments should work. You can never please everybody with this piece of legislation. For this reason, some oppose the bill entirely, while others have voiced descent for a myriad of reasons illustrating growing criticism of this bill this time around.

The sheer number of amendments tabled in the other place is a sign of that discontent. Of course it will be really crucial to ensure that the legislation is right, we all have one chance to do that. I suggest we all take a moment to remind ourselves of the findings of the Fan-Led Review and why the regulator was conceived in the first place. That is because self-regulation simply isn't working. Given so many chances, over so many years, the leaks that have not been able to reach a deal on financial distribution themselves.

Don't forget, left to their own devices, those six greedy clubs planned to break away and form European Super League. Risking English football

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itself. Is it not a shame that has not

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Is it not a shame that has not been recognition that there would not be a Premier League if there was not grassroots football, and the not grassroots football, and the better our grassroots football is the better we will be.

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the better we will be. The English football thrives

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The English football thrives because of the ecosystem. Because of everything from the grassroots right up to the very top of the elite. It is our job to ensure that it continues to thrive in every aspect of the ecosystem being protected and supported. We know that there are some really responsible club owners continue to this day to play fast and loose with the club finances and assets. Far too many clubs have been on the brink of collapse and that is why the regulator must have a role to protect English football.

But it will need to bring together all voices within that really complex ecosystem for it to work properly. That is why the Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee timeshare look forward to our hearing with David Kogan, the preferred candidate, next week. It has been a long journey to get here. I'm sure the Secretary of State appreciates this, having scheduled and then postponed hearings more than once, as ministers have struggled to pick a candidate. A chair will be utterly critical in ensuring the regulator performs its role well.

They will steer this ship. And they will set the temperature for football going forward. They will have to come in on the front foot. They will have to broker strong relationships with stakeholders across the board to get that full Bayern. I have already spoken about some of the naysayers, some of the detractors here. They need to be able to build that faith they will have to demonstrate good understanding of the dynamics of the whole ecosystem in order to have the clouds that they will need.

They also need to make sure that they don't come with a load of industry baggage. It is difficult position to be in. At the same time they have to demonstrate regulatory experience in order to be effective. Ultimately they have to demonstrate that they can be objective and fair and crucially, independent of government. And of the league. And of individual football clubs. It is a very difficult job to recruit for. Indeed UEFA have raised concerns and threatened sanctions over the prospect of government interference was the that is why I am surprised the government had proposed a candidate to be so close to the Labour Party, who donated money to the Chancellor and others.

It does raise concerns about whether the regulator can truly be seen as independent given their close ties to members of the government. I expect this is something that the committee will want to explore in detail when we hear from him next week. He has to demonstrate that he intends the regulator to be operationally 100% independent from political interference. I'm struggling to see how that will happen but my mind is open because as a Select Committee, our job is to have a pre-appointment hearing with this potential regulator.

We did see, as others have mentioned, the former Chair of the BBC, clearly talented, very capable and very smart man, but found himself undone by giving the impression of a lack of independence from government. Like the BBC, there are very many people out there at the moment who are willing this body to fail. I don't want to see this happen. If the regulator is undermined in its infancy, that is the worst case scenario for everybody. Even before the checks in place, there have been some concerning signs about the government's approach to the independent football regulator.

We know that many clubs in the Premier League in particular have expressed misgivings, and in some cases, strong opposition to the regulator. Despite what the Secretary of State says today, and she speaks very strong on this, there are some lingering doubts. The whole process has been plagued by leaks and delays. Members of seen and heard rumours that the magnate was poised to be thrown out onto the latest bonfire of quangos, even before it had started. When discussing the so-called blockers, it seems telling that the government chose to single out Guardian trust, Sport England, and Theatres trust, all organisations to no longer be consulted over planning.

And when considering AI and copyright seems to be siding with big tech. You will forgive me for beginning to feel the sectors that we represent on the Select Committee, Culture, Media and Sport, are not valued by her department. I look forward to hearing next week from the proposed regulator. I look forward to seeing the built progress through the house. I think the bill can improve the resilience of clubs and encourage sensible financial decisions. I would like clarity on how the regulator will operate alongside cost control measures, once it has no oversight of such as Premier League profits and sustainability rules, we recently think clubs like Chelsea manipulate to their own advantage.

And arguably will undermine the regulator. I would also really like a cast-iron reinsurance that the legislation will prevent the painful situations like Reading FC we have heard about today who have had experience. It is an appalling situation. Otherwise we will be wasting our time. It is imperative that this will safeguard English football which is central to our communities and central to national fabric of our country. Football is a unifier, it brings people together for the love of the game.

Right from the grassroots to the very top of the elite. And it is the envy of the world. All the other countries that one would love to have our football leagues. We have to secure its future generations to

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We are shy of 50 members, I'll

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We are shy of 50 members, I'll have a speaking limit of five minutes. minutes.

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Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker. Firstly, I would like to talk about legislation and make the point that I am wholeheartedly in favour of I am wholeheartedly in favour of this. And I know many of my constituents do so as well. I want

18:33

Gill Furniss MP (Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough, Labour)

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constituents do so as well. I want to place my regard for Dame Tracey Crouch, without whom we would not be here today, Janet initiated this excellent bill. I wanted to also mention the former members for south-east Cambridge and Bristol West, along with all fan groups, and other bodies that have engaged in this lengthy process. Sheffield is a football story, I'm sure many members present are aware of Sheffield Wednesday and Sheffield United, what has often flown to the rays are, it is also home to the oldest club in the world, Sheffield football club.

A club approaching its 170th birthday, who to this day still play in the oldest derby in the world, against Hull FC. Critics of the bill question why the government is getting involved in football, but stories like these illustrate that football clubs are no half rate businesses. Many of our largest clubs today were originally formed by workers in towns and cities up and down the country and they remain as essential parts of the heart and soul of our communities.

I have had the privilege of seeing first-hand some of the excellent work being done in Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough, by Marcus and his team at Sheffield Wednesday community program. And I want to place on record my thanks for all they do. The good work that many of our clubs do for constituency need and the joy they can bring to many more, only to further -- Only emphasise why the government is right to protect these assets. To be recklessly mismanaged and cast aside, or when the and cast aside, or when the custodian stuff wears off.

I had the privilege of meeting with the Sheffield Wednesday supporters trust to hear their concerns about the direction of the club under its present custodianship. I don't have time to list any issues highlighted at the meeting with one of the key things they spoke about was this regard fan engagement and even abusive disdain for the supporters trust and the groups and the club. I gently remind all of those who are fortunate enough to be custodians of football clubs that without the fans, clubs and nothing.

-- Clubs are nothing. Which is why I am pleased this Bilbo introduced the minimum standard for fan engagement and compel clubs to democratically select the fan representatives. I also strongly ripping -- Welcome a change the government has made in this bill, by allowing the regulator to examine parish and payments. The strength of our football pyramid is the envy of many nations. Yet, a pyramid is nothing without a stable foundation. I believe that providing support for regulating clubs is important, but parachute payments in their current form are undermining our current pyramid.

They have ballooned to become one of the most distorting elements of the modern game. Last season's parachute payments recently relegated clubs to three times as much as a 67 other EFL teams. This in my view is the driving force behind many of our beloved club is becoming increasingly unsustainable, it is no wonder the majority of the top 92 clubs in the game are technically insolvent. The damage that irresponsible owners leave in their wake is immeasurable. Sadly, too wake is immeasurable. Sadly, too many of my honourable friends are able to attest to it today.

I'm pleased the government is getting to grips with the situation and I look forward to supporting this bill as it makes it way through Parliament,

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hoping to safeguard the future of all the clubs in the pyramid. Thank you. Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker

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Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker and I refer to my member register and I refer to my member register

18:37

Rt Hon Sir Oliver Dowden MP (Hertsmere, Conservative)

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and I refer to my member register interest. I am asked, when did you meet the late Queen and what football team do you support? Such is the strength and reach of UK football. It is a cherished cultural soft power that ranks alongside our greatest museums, galleries and stately homes. Indeed, I saw this again this Friday, my brilliant local club, Borehamwood FC, led by the indefatigable Danny Hunter. Three generations of a family sustaining back club, sustaining community life, providing education, nurturing us through COVID, and facilitating the next generation of stars to rise all the way to the top of the Premier League.

And indeed, it is because of that that I didn't hesitate to act when English football was threatened by the football was threatened by the rapacious greed of the proposed European Super League which would have the vaccinated six of our have the vaccinated six of our greatest clubs. -- De Rasa dated six of our greatest clubs. Yet, it is there that this bill lies, Boris Johnson threatens the legislative bomb which resulted in us bringing forward the government's review led by my excellent former colleague, Dame Tracey Crouch.

I would also caution in our consideration of this legislation that English football lies on cutthroat competition, whether awards for victory are high, and the cost of failure are equally high. And it is also dependent on significant levels of global investment. Well structured investment is not a threat to English football, it is one of its great strengths and I could list many examples. Manchester City, backed by the Abu Dhabi United group, that has posted record revenues of over 700 million profits, based on solid equity, not risky leverage.

Exactly the sort of leverage that is demanded. Likewise, Newcastle United, its new ownership, led by the public investment fund, 300 million of fresh investment, again, without debt. Thriving team, jobs created, silverware returned. Likewise, we have seen, beyond the Premier League, what the injection of funds at Wrexham has done for its extraordinary ascent through the league. Tottenham Hotspur. You just have to look a fabulous stadium. Indeed, that is now expanding beyond things like the Eubank masterclass at the weekend.

This leads to the core question before the House, which I have very little time to address but I will try to succinctly make this point. There is undoubtedly a case for regulation. The pyramid is not working, hundred million for TV rights at the bottom of the Premier League, versus 4 million at the top. We need to address that, it's not sustainable. Likewise, the movement from the National League to the EFL, we need to expand that as example fired by the three up campaign. But what I fear, as we go down this path, is if we look at how circumstances have changed in the past year, look at the change in the global investment environment, principally as a result of instability in the US.

Look at the national insurance rise height being faced by every club up and Is this really the right moment to proceed with further regulation, because in my experience, I would caution the House, my whole 20 years experience, in and out of government, when a regulator is created, however benign the intention, self-serving bureaucracy always seeks to expand its scope over time. This will really be the case for this piece of legislation and this regulator, it will be on the front and back pages of the newspaper every single day.

We already see from the colleagues on the Lib Dem benches, arguments to expand the scope of this regulator before it is even up and running. And I would just say, in this changed environment, and given measures such as the backstop and supplication to the pyramid and to parachute payments, I think it still remains a window, where we can threaten this kind of regulation, but not actually introduce it because I fear the damage that it will do. I regret I cannot give way, but for those reasons, I will be voting accordingly at the end of the session.

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I declare my interest at the outset. I volunteer as a trustee of Millwall's community trust. This bill has been a long time in the making, and there has been more than making, and there has been more than a little bit of scaremongering along the way about the implications of a the way about the implications of a regulator for the future of the Premier League. This bill does not pose any excess into threat to the

18:42

Clive Efford MP (Eltham and Chislehurst, Labour)

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pose any excess into threat to the Premier League, and no one who supported once to undermine the success of the Premier League. The existential threat is to the pitfall -- Football pyramid, should we fail with a distribution of resources. EFL estimate there clubs will lose 450 million this season. This will have to be covered by the generosity of their owners, and where it doesn't occur, we end up in a situation, like we have with Berry, Derby, Wigan and many others. The EFL propose the idea of the 75-25% split of the combined TV revenues of both leagues in 2020.

Approximately the additional funding for the four Instead, in the four years since the EFL first made the proposal, spending on transfers by the Premier League has gone up by £850 million. In 2022-23 season, the Premier League spent 2.8 billion one player transfers. The other major European leagues spent around 750 men per league. In wages, -- 750 million per league. In wages, in 2023, the really expect to combine some of 4.6 billion on player salaries. Spend an aggregate sum of 2.5 billion.

Over 2 billion gap. The gap is nearly 2.5 billion, for France and Italy, the gap is about 2.8 billion. The 300 million extra that the EFL was asking for ploughs into insignificance, when it comes to the sums of money. So, I fear a distribution of the revenues would not impact on the ability of the Premier League to pay the highest players' salaries are the highest prices for player transfers. This will make an enormous difference when it comes to sustainability of the pyramid.

Currently, the 20 Premier League clubs and five clubs receiving parachute payments get 90% of the distributable money which is about 3 billion. The remaining 67 clubs of the EFL get a total of 8%, as 245 -- 245 million, this distorts the competition in the EFL and encourages clubs to overspend. The Premier League clubs have to agree to change the distribution of the TV revenues across the pyramid. In four years, this will... In the four years this has been under discussion, no acceptable proposal has been put forward and it is clear that football needs an adjudicator to enter this impasse.

While it is reasonable to help clubs to adjust to being in the championship, it's not acceptable to sustain a system that forces clubs to overspend, to compete with clubs receiving parachute payments. In the last seven seasons, two of the clubs promoted have been in receipt of parachute payments. The top three places in the championship this season, have gone to clubs in receipt of parachute payments, too much is still to go. The 75%-25% split will eradicate the need for parachute payments altogether, create A-level playing field, and remove the incentive for non- parachute payment clubs to overstretch themselves financially.

One of the other major issues is my honourable friend for Sheffield South East mentioned, it is that of clubs being separated from their grounds. This is happened to my local club, Charlton athletic. And many other clubs it is difficult to see how this club could deal with that retrospectively, but it is an issue we must lose sight of. It may not be possible to solve this issue in this bill, but is something we do to deal with urgently.

The time has come for football regulator. A full regulatory cannot fail to recognise that the current situation is not sustainable and that they must usher in a fairer system. I pay tribute to all of those in playing the part to this point, look forward to playing my part in seeing this bill's

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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. Is someone more recently elected I am less burdened by previous legislation was the let me be clear, having worked in Sports Illustrated for many years, I have serious misgivings about the government misgivings about the government regulator in football. I know this legislation started out as a very legislation started out as a very well-meaning initiative but concerns raised by others about creeping raised by others about creeping scope, the amount of government meddling in a great British success story.

It is hard to argue that the privy league is not the fire country's finest export. It attracts the biggest names in the game to play in packed stadiums and hundreds of millions watching or unwell. He contributes over £8.5 billion to the UK economy and employs over 90,000 people. Its reach is unparalleled. As others have mentioned. I think it's wearing a Chelsea shirt in rural Rwanda and Manchester United fans in Pyongyang. It may surprise the house to know that the Premier League is widely watched in North Korea, albeit through pirated broadcast.

I understand that Spurs don't regularly feature in the coverage thanks to captain Son. I'm sympathetic to fans who fear the owner of their football club will run the club into the ground. As a Leeds fan I know some examples of this. We have heard good examples from members representing Reading and Sheffield Wednesday. We should dispel the myth that every football club owner is some superrich maniac trying to squander their fortune to

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destroy a local football club. Is it really the job... I will give way. I'm happy to agree with the

18:48

Charlie Dewhirst MP (Bridlington and The Wolds, Conservative)

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18:56

John Whitby MP (Derbyshire Dales, Labour)

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themselves to reach the promised land of the Premier League is Derby land of the Premier League is Derby County FC. Champions of England twice, FA Cup winners, European cup semifinalists. Sadly, having failed in the championship play-offs four times in six years, Derby could not quite take that final step to quite take that final step to financial security and therefore their unusual take on amortisation their unusual take on amortisation and the questionable way of making money out of the stadium became much money out of the stadium became much bigger problems.

It was Premier League or bust. And for Derby it was very nearly bust. Derby went into administration which in itself cost the club about £3 million just the administrators. So despite the club's proud history and despite the remarkable fan base,, Derby County almost ceased to exist as a result of financial issues. The club according to the current owner being just one week away from going into business. So I imagine that Derby supporters will take the creation of an Independent Football Regulator would be a good idea.

The concept of a regulator comes to the people that make football what it is, the fans. This is after all a recommendation from a Fan-Led Review. The objectives of the IFR are sound. To protect and promote financial stability, protect and promote financial resilience and safeguard football heritage. Under the board, clubs will have to submit regular financial plans and regularly consults with fans. Clubs will have to demonstrate they have the resources to sustain operations and show they have the systems in place to manage financial risk.

These measures will help ensure the risk taken by Derby County cannot be taken again. Clause 46 of the bill will require clubs to get approval from the IFR before selling their home grounds rather than security for a loan. It will prevent the European Super League debacle which had no real petition, just a licence to print money and the integrity expense of the this game. Current fans will no doubt be pleased to see clause 49 which will prevent the change of team colours.

While I strongly support this bill, I also want to raise an issue brought to my attention by one of my constituents, former Arsenal and Leeds goalkeeper. He has highlighted the growing number of ex-players, as has been mentioned today, suffering from a form of dementia caused by repeated heading off the ball. I'm encouraged to hear that the secretary of state will meet with the football fans for justice. Football must do more to look after its former players. English football has been such a success, bringing joy and occasional pain to so many.

I don't want another mass march to save Derby County. I don't want another 21 points deduction. Everyone wants their team to be successful but more than that everyone wants their team

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to exist. I urge everyone to support that. Tom Morrison. Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. I want to start by congratulating I want to start by congratulating the team to confirm their second place in the women's league division one North. They missed out on promotion by goal difference in their first season and nationally. I

18:59

Tom Morrison MP (Cheadle, Liberal Democrat)

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their first season and nationally. I hope the House will share congratulations to the whole team for this fantastic campaign. I have every confidence they will go one better next year. Football has been a key part of my life since I can remember. I was a youngster of about seven, I remember eating my Sunday lunch so I could watch in front of the TV my heroes John Barnes and Ian Rush. I was a seven year old glory hunter. Transfixed by the way Liverpool seem to effortlessly breeze past teams.

The iconic red kit became a uniform. I can still remember my first game. The long walk up seems like an endless walk up seems like an endless mountain of steps, to come into full view of that bright green carpet. Surrounded by a sea of scarves, banners, and flags, and my heroes warming up on the pitch. I still remember how it made me feel. It felt like falling in love for the very first time. Because football has that power.

It can bring people together in a way that only a few cultural spectacles can. For 90 minutes, whether it is a few hundred people watching a nonleague club in

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Greater Manchester, or 90,000 people watching the FA Cup final in Wembley, football encourages us to drink together. Thank you for giving way. I'm interested in community involvement. I refer the House my Register of Interests. We are in a situation Interests. We are in a situation where mental health in many particulars at a crisis point. particulars at a crisis point. Suicide is the peak cause of death under 50. Would he commend my club, under 50. Would he commend my club, Forrest Green Rovers, who are trying to re-enter the list Football League for the in a scheme of football on prescription which is to refer men to football so that they can feel

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I thank the honourable member for his intervention, that is fantastic his intervention, that is fantastic work. Football creates togetherness and is important from communities, that is why this bill is so that is why this bill is so important. For too many years, we have seen our game threatened by a have seen our game threatened by a variety of actors, be it poor owners, the creation of super leagues, and the ever increasing prices of the match day, ensuring prices of the match day, ensuring that only a small and smaller group of people can export the experience of people can export the experience again.

These are commendable and I'm

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fully supportive of them. However... I thank my honourable friend for giving way, in terms of the sale of giving way, in terms of the sale of the football club have been agreed, but we are currently waiting for a signature for the deal to go through. Sadly, we have been here before, his ownership is a Shakespearean tragedy, he has Shakespearean tragedy, he has attempted to asset strip the club, attempted to asset strip the club, does remember agree with me that we

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must let the club enter a new era? If interventions are long, even fewer colleagues are going to get

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interventions. Thank you to my honourable friend for bringing that forward. I think it is absolutely key, we have got a it is absolutely key, we have got a history in this country of poor owners taking our clubs for granted and is the fans that pay for that, thank you very much for bringing thank you very much for bringing that forward. There are things that I would like further consideration in this bill. I would like to see more detail and focus on how more detail and focus on how football governance can support the wider football pyramid outside of wider football pyramid outside of the football league.

I mentioned Cheadle town stingers, it is a great Cheadle town stingers, it is a great another community run football club, that not only champions excellence on the field but also off the field. It sits in the heart of Cheadle and plays a part in its community. Helping local food banks and coaching local schools. It is also, in my view, an exemplar of how both the men's and women's game should be championed in this country. There is a true one club mentality in Cheadle town, where the successes of both teams are worked for and celebrated equally, exactly as it should be.

This is a true community club, and everything that the Football Governance Bill needs to protect. The campaign organisation fair game put it best when they say addressing the deeply flawed financial flow in the game could see extra money flooding into towns and villages that have lower league football clubs. We all know the Premier League, which sees the lion share of the market revenue. In 2023, just 25 clubs received a massive 90% of the revenues across the English game, while the other 67 clubs in the football league's received just 8%.

The disparity in this is complete the eye watering but doesn't even begin to take into account the clubs even further below. These are the clubs that have a real risk. I have to fund raised to save to ensure they can put the floodlights on. Many nonleague clubs are now struggling with the rising energy prices, which have quadrupled in the last few years. Whilst others have had to sparingly cut the grass on their pitches to save further costs. Facilities are also a key issue. Across Cheadle, there are just three 3D pictures, which are shared across 40 different teams.

Whilst of the 18 grass pitches in Stockport, five have no changing facilities at all. Which has a greater moral portion no impact on women's teams and disability teams. The issues in the game and not just impacting the Premier football league, is having a massive impact and sometimes fatal massive impact and sometimes fatal impact on our grassroots. While I will Football Governance Bill does start to mitigate these issues, it is very little to encourage clubs, particularly the large Premier League clubs, to support a very low 80s of the football pyramid.

Appetite to see this changes the bill progresses and more opportunities on how our grassroots game can be supported. Football is about community, and often represents what is best about our community spirit, so, supporting the game at its very base needs to be more of a priority, Madame Deputy Speaker, this bill is a step forward for football in this country and should be welcomed, but there is more to do what I hope the government will take this on board, and introduce regulators that not only protects this wonderful game, but promotes it at its very community grassroots level.

Finally, if I may shave indulgence for 10 more seconds, Madame Deputy Speaker, and allow me to channel at seven- year-old that was obsessed with the likes of John Barnes, and Ian Rush, and say this. On a slot, big verge, and no, thanks for bringing home number 20.

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Madame Deputy Speaker, congratulations to Liverpool fans. As we have been hearing this evening, football is more than just evening, football is more than just a game. My constituents and I, it represents community, joy, sometimes a bit of despair as well, provides a bit of despair as well, provides jobs, brings people together and is a source of immense pride, despite, or especially perhaps, in the or especially perhaps, in the darkest times. Is it one of the most haunting images of the pandemic those football games that had to be

19:06

Jake Richards MP (Rother Valley, Labour)

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played behind closed doors, it just wasn't the same for the players, the fans, or anyone. Last night I was honoured to be invited by Rotherham United, to join them at the English football league's awards, it has been a difficult season on the pitch for the Millers, but the work the club doing the community never waivers. They support so many fantastic initiatives across the borough. Walking football, women's games, closer pensioners, active travel, the list goes on, I am pleased to be working with them specifically for things in my , it is the opportunity to flourish again.

The football club will be critical to that mission, right at the heart of it. Anything that threatens the existence of clubs like Rotherham, as we have seen in Redding, Macclesfield, Bolton, Derby, the list goes on, is an essential crisis for the town. These are places for who the football club, the team, is a heart of their identity, economy, and society. So, offering some security for clubs down the football pyramid must be priority, and that is why I support the government's legislation today. The stories of financial ruin are becoming too common.

The dam is close to breaking point, and there are increasing signs, not least the Premier League championship table today, that the competitiveness of our game is also wilting. Ultimately, and it is a statistic that has been said already many times in this debate, 25 clubs, the top 20 Premier League teams and five in the championship, received nice to % of the revenue, £3 billion, while 67 professional clubs share just 8%. This inequality cannot continue. Not because of inherent unfairness or moral distaste.

But because the game we love is now seemingly stretched to the point of breaking point. I am sympathetic to the Premier League's position, as we have heard already from members across the House, we should be clear that the Premier League is one of the most successful exports in modern Britain. I would not support any measure that could seriously threaten the league's position at the pinnacle of sporting competition. At this bill, in my mind, city does not do that. Firstly, the financial side of the Premier League will not be threatened, there is a gap of 2 billion between the Premier League and any of its rivals when it comes to wages.

Secondly, the bill purposely maintains the lightest touch,, unless it is forced into other action. It is not straight stray beyond a tight remit, and relies on a thriving Premier League, there is no benefit to anybody in this negotiation, to stifle the competitiveness or commercial success of the Premier League. The EFL and the independent regulator must, surely well, recognise this in their decision-making going forwards. Ultimately, there should be a symbiotic relationship between the EFL and the Premier League. Each need each other.

A thriving football pyramid, producing a talented footballers, ambitious clubs, the Premier League that excels. As has just been mentioned, I would like to also raise the wider ecosystem in our football. Rotherham United is not in my constituency, but the football ecosystem in the borough, indeed South Yorkshire and the country is made up of these brilliant nonleague clubs. (Reads) Are flying high in the league, and all play crucial roles in our community. Run through the sheer will and hard work of volunteers.

I hope, once this bill has passed, the professional game will consider how we can better help those in the nonleague as well. I've spent nearly 30 years watching football with my dad. I think each of my best friends would be playing the game several years ago. I spent a lot of time, too much many might say, watching, playing, reading about the game. It's the game I love and I'm proud tonight to support this bill would

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go some way to ensuring it has a reaching flourishing future for decades to come. Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker, I should declare my interest in the register. I'm into football -related businesses, as my result as chairmanship of the south and on foot or cold for don't have many success stories left, but English success stories left, but English football is one of them. What the politicians want to do? Regulate it of course. The biggest beneficiary from the success of the Premier from the success of the Premier League is HRC.

Through tax and national issue -- HMRC, through tax and national insurance on player

19:11

Rupert Lowe MP (Great Yarmouth, Independent)

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wages and staff wages. Money flying out of the beautiful game. These salaries are correlated closely with the growth of broadcasting income fell to critically overseas television rights. Lord Sugar referred to this as the prune juice effect. These salaries are effect. These salaries are collimated closely with the growth of broadcasting income. Particularly of broadcasting income. Particularly overseas television. No regulator played any part in laying the foundation of the world's most foundation of the world's most successful league. English football works and has worked for many works and has worked for many decades.

My message to you all today Back football is a risk business supported in this country may by the passionate fans in the world. If the aspiration for supporters is to be delivered in the form entertaining successful football of which they can be proud. Many of the failures in our game, such as Bury and Leeds were driven by boards Dominic by fans, rather than biological businessmen. The joy of running the businessmen. The joy of running the club in the Premier League difficult at the best of times, I should know competing with clubs you have substantially greater turnover.

A regulator will simply make the job of smaller clubs more difficult and limit their ability to take out little risks, in order to successfully compete, either for promotion, league position, or cup success. It is the larger clubs that will benefit, the dynamic that has driven the Premier League's success

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will be undermined, I will give way, someone would be to give way? Is the honourable gentleman

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Is the honourable gentleman really saying that fans involvement in clubs is a bad thing? I think the passion of the fans

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I think the passion of the fans can be a dangerous thing, yes. The -- F AFP ill success has been a -- F AFP ill success has been a factor for ensuring a competitive factor for ensuring a competitive league. Fans will suffer a more legal geographic region, probably in Asia, will emerge as a leader. You might all feel good about yourselves, billions of pounds will be driven out of the country. There is no need for a football regulator, is no need for a football regulator, or indeed any more woke, as example a wide by an organisation like Black Lives Matter, when the knee was taken before each game.

The world's best football meets the world's best virtue signalling. Just last week, there were two roles both excluding white men from applying. Ipswich made the right choice and remove the races at, full and have not. These roles have been pushed by the Premier League itself. Match game fans are overwhelmingly male and overwhelmingly white. They would be surprised to hear that clubs are banning them from applying for certain roles, based on their skin colour. Racism is racism, even when white people are on the receiving end of it.

I hope that all of us in this House call it out for the wickedness it is. We must eradicate the poisonous DEI from our beautiful game. Fans attend football to escape all that nonsense. A functional football team is the perfect analogy for any successful society, based on merit and merit alone. Fans do not want ideological lessons from their clubs, they want to watch exciting football, enjoy a beer, and have a proper day out. Good for them, I say. All of us here need to leave them alone.

Those responsible for this bill must also take full responsibility when the Premier League inevitably wanes as the woke do-gooders perpetrate the damage that history teaches us is inevitable. The Chancellor speaks oxymoronic lay about trying to revive our financial market, by regulating the growth. The Financial Services Act of 2,000 destroyed London as a centre where B to risk. You do not regulate for growth, you deregulate for growth. We do not need this interference by tire kicking regulators in our national game.

Judging by this debate, the Secretary of State for culture, media and sport, looks like she is pretty handy on the terraces. I say to her, in football lingo, you do not know what you are doing.

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It is indeed. Thank you, Madame

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It is indeed. Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker. There is no place I would rather be than to follow the honourable member, whose interesting views of fans being a fault of the views of fans being a fault of the issues of the game were truly enlightening. I am so pleased to be able to speak in this debate today able to speak in this debate today on the football and governance Bill, gifts from colleagues in the form of interventions are gratefully interventions are gratefully received.

Not just because this bill will protect clubs, empower fans and keep clubs at the heart of the communities, but because it gives me an opportunity, after Basingstoke towns final home game of this season, typically to wonderful football club and the entire community that surrounds it, supports it, and stands by it through thick and thin. It was a delight to see the team get effectively a richly deserved on Saturday by beating the league

19:16

Luke Murphy MP (Basingstoke, Labour)

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champions for nil. The result secured acquisition in the league, for the season, Madame Deputy Speaker, stoker staying up. But more than that, it was a joy, after a than that, it was a joy, after a tough season, to see the dedicated team who leave and manage the club, the staff, volunteers and loyal the staff, volunteers and loyal fans, celebrating after such hard fans, celebrating after such hard A massive thank you to the staff A massive thank you to the staff volunteers boards, and players, go beyond match days.

Endless meetings and endless hours behind-the-scenes trying to create the best experience. You would not believe the half of it. It is selfless and deserves celebrating, from stewards, the board, the bar staff, the kit room, and everyone in between, you are remarkable. To Katie Oliver and others, Adam Robinson, Aaron Nicholson, and so many other volunteers, players, and fans past and present. I could not agree more, you are remarkable. For all the money, the well-deserved global attention, the sporting excellence of the Premier League, it is the community and fans around local football clubs like Basingstoke Town that make the big football truly great.

Because football is more than just a sport, it is that sort of civic pride, community identity, and economic opportunity. For too long, the government and financial model of our game has left clubs vulnerable to mismanagement. Unscrupulous ownership, and ultimately financial ruin. One stark example is the case of Basingstoke town and its much loved ground. The ground was gifted to the club in the 1940s and its use was restricted to football or a sports ground. For over 70 years it was the heart of our towns club, a vital community hub where generations of fans came together to support their team, and people of all ages came to play the sport that so much of our nation holds dear.

The covenant of the ground which should have guaranteed the sports facility for the town, for another three decades at least, was and is continues to be blatantly and disgracefully disregarded. 2016 bid chairman of the sold the freehold to a company he owned. Following years of underinvestment, he eventually evicted the newly formed community club in April 2019. The move forced the club to locate to Winchester City FC's ground over 20 miles away, disrupting not only the men's first team but also the women's team, youth academy, and are a vital community projects.

And once iconic stadium that brought pride opportunities to the town was reduced to a distant memory. Our town and club has lost a historic football ground. You have lost a large sports and community facility, and those responsible been able to escape accountability and profit handsomely on what has been a disgraceful episode in our towns. Basingstoke town has transitioned since to 100% fan owned model. But it is why I'm so passionate about this process and protecting not just fans of the EFL clubs but protecting those supporting nonleague teams like Basingstoke town.

It is like these including the bill, I would like to protect clubs at all levels of English football, so I would appreciate any information the Minister can give and how the government will work with the FA to support and regulate nonleague clubs to protect clubs like that in

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Basingstoke. I will give way. He is making an excellent speech. One of the terrible things that One of the terrible things that happened at Reading due to the ownership is the women's formal team ownership is the women's formal team have gone from Women's Super League to Tier 5. Will you join me in supporting women's football and in supporting women's football and in asking the government to update the Carny Review into the future?

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I'm grateful for her intervention. I wholeheartedly agree intervention. I wholeheartedly agree with her sentiments around women's football which is a vital part of Basingstoke town football club as well. Stronger governance is vital. We need to have ownership tests to stop reckless takeovers, and to prevent clubs drowning in debt and more support for fan-led ownership models. Football belongs to the fans. They pour in their passion, time, and money into the system that protects their clubs and their communities, not one puts them at risk.

This bill provides just that system and I commend the government for it. I do want to see just as much attention on the grassroots, nonleague football and the fans and volunteers. As I said earlier, this is what makes football truly great.

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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. It has been mentioned previously, It has been mentioned previously, there is only one Football League club that is represented in this club that is represented in this place by Conservative MP, and my efforts to have " You have got the efforts to have " You have got the only Tory" is ongoing and I will keep the House informed as to how well it receives. The club's ground well it receives. The club's ground since 1938 stands proudly in my constituency of Bromley and Biggin Hill.

Bromley FC is a football fan stream. We have gone from strength to strength in recent years. Earning promotion to the Conference League South in 2006. Bromley FC was

19:22

Peter Fortune MP (Bromley and Biggin Hill, Conservative)

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crowned champions eight years later. We climbed the National League reaching the FA Trophy final in 2018 and earning promotion in 2021. Our rise did not stop there. Bromley faced Ryan Reynolds's Wrexham at Wembley for a second shot at the FA Trophy 2022. It was an amazing day. Trophy 2022. It was an amazing day. And one which I remember well. Whilst we may not have had Deadpool, Whilst we may not have had Deadpool, we did have Michael Cheek, the Maradona of Bromley who secured the silverware with the game's only goal.

I love Michael Cheek. I graduate him on being named league two player of the year last night. It is well deserved. And last year the moment 132 years in the making arrived with Bromley being promoted to the English Football League. For the first time. Bromley's football dream was realised thanks to sound management, private investment, and raw talent, not a state regulator. I congratulate Mark Hammond, and Andy Woodman for all they have done for the club.

As a fan, when I look at Labour's supposedly Independent Football Regulator, I have to ask if it would help Romney FC or aspiring clubs like it will stop the answer in its current state is a resounding no. When the bill was first proposed, it had the right intentions. It would protect cherished community clubs from bad owners and prevent breakaway European Super League. But Labour's regulator is morphing into a meddling and costly political deadweight for English football. The rig later will neither be independent or impartial.

It is cronyism at its worst.

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I thank him four giving way. He is a football fan. As he recalled is a football fan. As he recalled his experience hearing any fan group saying that what we really need is a Labour donor crony regulating the beautiful game?

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beautiful game? I thank my friends was intervention. What fans tell me they want the money to move more freely through the sport. I will come onto through the sport. I will come onto that in the second. The cronyism is what we are concerned about. With political leadership, the risk of political leadership, the risk of mission creep becomes greater. More state intervention threaten English football's independence. Without independence, as we have heard, UEFA warned English clubs would not compete in European leagues.

The government knows their bill torpedo English football. And that is why I wonder if ministers refuse to publish UEFA's letter on Labour's Football Governance Bill. The regulator will also cost clubs a small fortune. The levy to pay for the bureaucracy will cost clubs nearly £100 million. The regulatory burden will cost clubs nearly £35 million more. Putting the smaller clubs like Bromley do not have the staff to handle yet more red tape. For clubs it means higher taxes and staff working on state demands not on football.

For fans, it will inevitably mean higher ticket prices, especially considering the new jobs tax that Labour has instigated, and employment redtape. We should be focused on getting money to the lower league clubs, not tying their hands with bureaucracy. This is what the clubs need. Football is about risks and aspirations was the team's win or lose, get promoted or regulated. This isn't banking, it is football. Whilst I recognise smaller clubs need support, a partisan regulator is not the answer. English football's independence is worth protecting.

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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. I draw the attention of the house, register interest. I think most of register interest. I think most of us in this debate have agreed that football is a governance problem. Last Friday I attended a meeting Last Friday I attended a meeting with your members from Sheffield and fans of Sheffield Wednesday, fans desperate for the owner to sell the desperate for the owner to sell the club in order that we can share learnings. We know well the problems learnings.

We know well the problems are bad ownership at Reading FC. And in my constituency was not our club in my constituency was not our club is on the brink of expulsion from the English Football League after it absent owner was disqualified by the EFL over a month ago. Reading and

19:27

Yuan Yang MP (Earley and Woodley, Labour)

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19:33

Mr Lee Dillon MP (Newbury, Liberal Democrat)

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grassroots players, including myself still. And over 40,000 association still. And over 40,000 association football clubs. It brings people together on a weekly basis to celebrate, commiserate, and to enjoy celebrate, commiserate, and to enjoy the unfolding drama that only sport can deliver. Football is also can deliver. Football is also crucial to the local economies, and crucial to the local economies, and local identity. Too many clubs are facing uncertain times, which is why facing uncertain times, which is why I support the focus of the bill on financial sustainability, the ownership of clubs, and the fan engagement.

If these areas of focus has been realised, then my nearest EFL club, Reading FC, would not be in the situation they currently find themselves in. That is why this bill is needed. We cannot let something of so much social and economic value to be unrelated, this bill can improve the connection between fans and clubs and protect their heritage. The first half of this bill's legislative journey has now been completed. Whilst the government didn't formally accept any opposition amendments from the other place, the bill has been improved and I welcome amendments to be made.

Board members and expert panel members to declare their interests, inclusion of play, or greater inclusion of players and fans, introducing a social responsibility duty, and including a club contributing to the economic and social well-being of its and social well-being of its communities. Because football clubs must be held to account. The selling off of assets, such as car parks, training grounds, transferring ownership of the stadium, or even selling this trophy cabinet, cannot be allowed to happen. A Tottenham fan would be selling dust! Clubs owned by wealthy individuals or investment groups.

They belong to their communities. Financial fair play has created unintended consequences. Such as selling home- grown players as you get a greater profit. Or selling off your women's team foreign accounting trick. As this mark for an accounting trick. As this bill progresses, we must picture with the legislation doesn't do the same thing. One area there has been criticism of the bill is unintended consequences to increase ticket prices. It was raised in the other place, no demotion in this House declines to give the bill a second reading, by also raising this issue.

However, my own team, who yesterday were joined by Liverpool as with the time champions, have increased their ticket prices without consultation by the fans. The ticket increase was because of the level of debt. That debt hasn't strengthened Manchester United, the fans didn't ask for it, the only benefit of the owners. Now, the main focus of this bill was to create financial sustainability of the Going through the pyramid, I don't hold the view the victory burden will increase ticket prices. At section 4, close to C of the bill, gives fans legal right to be engaged in ticket prices.

So, Madame Deputy Speaker, I support the principle of this bill but as it progresses I would like to explore how it can work with football clubs, and have progression every ticket pricing, the cost for away fans, alongside how fans can own a real meaningful stake in their clubs. Finally, while I accept the women's game isn't covered by the legislation, but that the Secretary of State has the power to bring it into this new regulatory regime. I will also be seeking, at Bill committee, more concrete commitments as to what trigger is needed for this to happen.

A financial success, or not, of the men's game is already impacting on women's and girls ability to play organised football. Through the Bill committee stages, I will be asking colleagues to explore these six

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areas. Thank you. In Derby, our football club isn't

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In Derby, our football club isn't just the team. It is the heart of our community, uniting us across our community, uniting us across generations. Derby and Derby County has a rich footballing heritage. has a rich footballing heritage. Heroes to inspire us and a bright future ahead. But that future has

19:37

Baggy Shanker MP (Derby South, Labour )

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future ahead. But that future has not always looked so bright. In 2021, we entered administration. Fans were left in a constant cliffhanger, as administration negotiations dragged on and offered little clarity. We were celebrating that the club had been bought one day, only to find that funds that were promised hadn't arrived the next. Thankfully, local man and fan, David, stepped up to ensure generations of fans to come would be able to enjoy a Saturday afternoon at Pride Park.

As he has said, we would never want to see another club and its fans suffer in the way Derby County did. Both before and during the period of administration. Anything that can prevent that, including this bill, should be supported and applauded. I know that up and down the country, from Birmingham to Burnley, fans are rightly proud of their clubs. But despite this fan base, it's not just Derby County who has faced financial peril. AFL clubs across the -- EFL clubs across the country lose about £450 million this season.

This financial instability undermines the clubs which unite our communities. At the risks that match day magic to our fans. That is why I absolutely welcome the government's plans to introduce an independent football regulator. Through the strengthened Football Governance Bill. It is right that clubs are required to stick to financial regulations. And that the independent football regulator can ensure a fair distribution of revenue. And having experienced a split of, at Derby County, of the football stadium at the football club, I know absolutely it is right that clubs have to seek approval to sell or relocate from the ground.

Because like Private parking Derby, the government also recognises the stadium is a huge asset fans. When interviewed on the opening day of his first season as chairman, David Kraut was asked what he wanted it to stand for. His response was stability, integrity, and progress, that is exactly what the Football Governance Bill stands for. Stability, integrity, and progress. To preserve and protect Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker for grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate today for topic so many other members across the House, football has given me some unforgettable moments.

I grew up listening to use scores on Saturday afternoon with my dad and I can still remember the pride I felt when my son have the opportunity to be asphalt -- Mascot at Stamford Bridge and we spotted him on Match Of The Day. Football gives us joy,

19:41

Liz Jarvis MP (Eastleigh, Liberal Democrat)

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community and a feeling that we are part of something bigger than ourselves. That same spirit, the connection, the pride, the sense of connection, the pride, the sense of belonging, it is exactly what my constituents feel when they go to constituents feel when they go to constituents feel when they go to watch the Spitfires, and I'm pleased to say we drew with Woking on Saturday. Football codes are part of the cultural DNA of our towns and the cultural DNA of our towns and cities, with rich heritage but by generations of fans, who turn up for every match, in the cold, in the every match, in the cold, in the rain, all for the love of the beautiful game.

This bill is long overdue to put the necessary guardrails in place, to protect our local clubs, and the communities which support them. Madame Deputy Speaker, what is football without stories like Leicester City's Premier League win? Or Wrexham's remarkable rise? Teams, no matter how small, with or without the support of Hollywood A-list is, should be able to have the same opportunity to compete. That is why I support measures to empower the independent regulator to block teams from joining a breakaway super league.

It would tear the heart out of English football. Currently, 95% of the £3.2 billion annual broadcast revenue stays with the top 26 clubs. Premier League size and those receiving parachute payments. While the bill takes steps to address some of these issues, it unfortunately leaves the National League and grassroots football outside the scope of the proposed regulator. The regulator will only require clubs to consider the interests of their own fans and members, not the long-term health of sustainability of the entire pyramid. This is a missed opportunity that I hope the government will address as the build progresses.

We must also recognise the need to strengthen the owners and directors test by having clear human rights checks. In oppressive regime should not be allowed to buy its way into our national game using English football to sports watches image simply because it offers the highest price. That is why I hope the government will strengthen the bill by embedding a human rights test into the owners and directors regulations. This bill must strike a balance, protecting the success of our globally admired game, while ensuring fairness, access, and sustainability across the pyramid.

Recently, I visited the Crescent primary school in my constituency. I was blown away by the passion and commitment of the school staff, to encourage girls as well as boys to play football. It was a powerful reminder of what football can offer future generations with access, inclusion, and opportunity are at its core. Football belongs to the fans, the communities, and the kids kicking a ball about at school or in a local park. They have made this game what it is, we awaited them to

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get it right. May I start by quoting the following historic football match following historic football match commentary. " It is Grimsby, giving away in a very dangerous part of the away in a very dangerous part of the pitch for some for the first time, the visitors becoming the architects of their own downfall. Tucked in, of their own downfall. Tucked in, going up today. With apologies to my going up today. With apologies to my wonderful friend for Grimsby, that is the moment on 3 May 2023, that is the moment on 3 May 2023, that the mighty borough, Stevenage FC, scored a goal in the match that sealed their promotion to the EFL League One, where they remain today.

Our club, whose colours I wear today, is part of the lifeblood of the town. Not just on the pitch, but off it as well, with the incredible work they do in the community. It is the exemplar of a local football club being a truly community asset. And so I speak in favour of the bill, because it's not just about much of the regulation, it is about safeguarding the future of our national sport. Ensuring financial stability for clubs across the pyramid, and making sure our fans, the people who spend their money, week in and week out, to follow the team across the country, are given a real say, in how their clubs are run.

19:45

Kevin Bonavia MP (Stevenage, Labour)

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I thank my honourable member for giving me, he is telling a familiar story, whose club welcomes investment, from Nigel Travis, delivering sustainable growth, promotion to league one, and chappie tube ambitions at the new stadium. And strengthening the community with up to £6.7 million in social value. Does he agree with me that all ownership transition should be like

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this, and follow this model with fan engagement? Madame Deputy Speaker, I certainly agree with my honourable certainly agree with my honourable friend, we both represent with clubs friend, we both represent with clubs that are good examples of what can be done, but our duty here is to safeguard that our clubs, and all safeguard that our clubs, and all clubs in this country, fought from clubs in this country, fought from future failure. And they are not future businesses, they are, as I said, community assets.

Last season, said, community assets. Last season, 23 Police Act 1997 million people attended matches in EFL competitions, demonstrating profound connection between these clubs and their local communities, and not just on the pitch, that clubs are contributing to their communities. In the same season, EFL clubs conducted over £1.2 billion of social value for the community programs, with my local clubs, Humility FC foundation, alone generating 10.7 million of social value in my constituency and wide The foundation delivered 185 training sessions each week engaging many elite participants and delivering over £9000 of activity.

That is an incredible feat. The financial stability of all clubs across the football pyramid is in a precarious place. With EFL clubs expected to lose around £450 million this year alone. Alongside this, the financial disparity between the Premier League and the EFL is stark. The 2022/23 season, many clubs with parachute payments lost money. This imbalance undermines systemic sustainable at your English football. I'm glad this bill proposes change. The 75/25% of split between revenue and EFL would become the new normal and provide much needed financial support to EFL clubs.

It is clear that the financial situation across the period we find ourselves in is untenable. This is directly led to financial crisis in incomes across England. It is beyond belief that the party opposite has now sat on its hands the most of the past 14 years, and claimed in its manifesto that it wanted an Independent Football Regulator. Why on earth do

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we have this? The honourable member will know

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The honourable member will know the bill has improved it to make the regulator more independent, and there are plenty of examples, by there are plenty of examples, by giving the regulator and ability to actually regulate the game. The actually regulate the game. The party opposite say they support independence was not they say they independence was not they say they want regulation, but many of their members don't like regulation at all. This is not a party that believes in detecting the national game.

It is a party that wants to play political, party critical football on something that should have cross-party consensus. Alongside the financial stability that this bill would bring to our clubs, we need to respect fans involvement in these community assets. So I want to pay tribute to all those clubs that are already engaged in good faith with their fans. I'm proud about the initiatives of clubs like Blackpool, initiatives of clubs like Blackpool, they explained last week how they had met with fans to hear their views on how the club should be run.

And I'm sure the member for Blackpool would agree with me that both of our clubs have got great foundations of trust that support their fans. I'm pleased that the amendments the government has made to the bill in its passage in the other place actually does strengthen that independence, as I have already said the Shadow Minister. Under this bill, poor and reckless behaviour that ignores local fans will not be tolerated by the regulator. This bill provides a safety net clubs need to be financially secure and be able to deliver for their local communities for a long time to come.

Let us support this bill and support our fantastic football clubs. Thank

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you. Time limit on speeches is now four minutes.

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four minutes. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I declare an interest as a supporter of Norwich City and King's Lynn Town Norwich City and King's Lynn Town FC. And I refer to the success of the Premier League and the English Football League was top it is one of the best attended in Europe. the best attended in Europe. Football is a success story, and I want to focus on the risks of this bill and regulation imposes to the bill and regulation imposes to the game.

Even the government says new regime distributions are unique and unprecedented. And whilst safeguarding heritage and strengthening engagement are supported by fans, much of this is already happening under the FA, and the Premier League and under the EFL rules. My concerns were expressed in the last Parliament debated a similar thing which will lead to overreach and regulation. And it will load on the burdens on football including protecting. As the Prime Minister Assed, the key thing is this will make our economy more dynamic.

Yet he is creating a new regulator which will take £100 million out of the game including for smaller clubs and raising the scope and costs and making it increase. The task of the regulator is already vast. They will have to approve business plans for 116 clubs as part of licensing. And it is inappropriate. Of course the provisions on revenues attract a lot of contention. Let's be clear, the government is taking powers through the backstop to mandate the division of revenue.

These are unprecedented powers and will cause significant regulatory investment uncertainty. It is a voluntary agreement at the moment that is essential to the health of the game to get the funds flowing. Backstop is meant to be a last resort is something where the football league have said they are waiting for this to come into force and they won't agree to anything until then. The government has made the situation worse by including parachute payment which will prevent clubs who want to invest to get promoted and take the risk that they can compete, and we can competitiveness of the game for some then there is the untried final offer arbitration model.

Rather than considering the proposals put forward by the Premier League and EFL to determine what is the best approach which may be a compromise between the two, we have an approach where the regulator has to be one of the other. Lord Bird put forward an amendment to the other place to put forward an approach based on commercial arbitration instead of this model which incentivises gaming. The secular state made some warm words about what's been done in the other place, but is the government still talking to Lord Birt? With the intention of changing this flawed backstop model? To conclude, this bill will introduce unprecedented regulation of our national game.

There are clear risks to excessive regulation that this bill will introduce. The very elements which make football the great success that it is. It is why I will be opposing this bill. In this government and the Prime Minister are will be rightly held responsible if it gets it wrong and undermines football.

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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. We are here to discuss football. An

19:53

James Wild MP (North West Norfolk, Conservative)

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We are here to discuss football. An unmatched force of pride and passion across all corners of this country from Barnet to Brighton, and York city to Yeovil. That is why this Labour government introducing an Independent Football Regulator. Today speaking in this debate with a somewhat unique perspective as a former national regulator, but also as an ordinary person who enjoys watching the local team. I was involved in the Fair Pay Agreement of element of strategy. They moved from what was called a rules-based motion to an outcome.

In my view the IFR should adopt a similar approach. And its court goal must be about putting fans at the heart of the

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game. I thank my honourable friend for

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I thank my honourable friend for giving way. The fans are the heart

19:54

Mr Luke Charters MP (York Outer, Labour)

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giving way. The fans are the heart and soul of football clubs, and does the honourable member agree with me that fans will respect transparency, stability, and a voice in the game?

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That should be the goal of the regulator. Fan engagement is great at York City but is not given elsewhere. That is why the IFR should feedback on its own effectiveness just like I saw the effectiveness just like I saw the FCA with its advisory panels. There is no greater problem in football that needs fixing than ticket that needs fixing than ticket pricing. The football regular should look at this in the future. This is all about giving back to the ordinary working people of this ordinary working people of this country.

Those people who pay their taxes working hard all week and waiting for those 90 minutes on Saturday. Some championship clubs have charged away fans 45 quid this season. And some sides will be charging over £30 a ticket next season. It is just not on. My view the IFR should have a greater role in pricing. I will make some progress. Let's roll out an away ticket cap across the EFL and National League. It already existed Premier League at 30 quid and the it is up for it review this year.

This should not be kept but expanded across all divisions. I understand the careful balance to be struck around regulator's remit. But with prices climbing, we have to do something before it is too late. Although this regulator will cover men's football, we should also consider how it could be shared to boost women's football and perhaps this should be considered as well. The IFR will cover the top five divisions recognising the great progress the National League has made in recent years.

Take Wrexham one 1/3 successive promotion to the championship over the weekend. The problem is the cap on promotion places. With any two teams going up this year from the National League. There has been a debate for some time about introducing 1/3 promotion spot. In my view, with the IFR, now is the right time. I should declare an interest. York City would be all but promoted by now. This is about opening our wonderful pyramids up, not closing it competition.

I share a further idea about English football. It is 40 years ago and someone was banned in view of the pitch. The days of hooliganism are gone. While fans of other sports can drink in the stands, football fans can't. Limited drinking zones in view of the pitch could be an interesting idea. For me we should do was keep family areas, but let's give fans who want to drink in the stands a chance to do so responsibly, or let's have a conversation about this as a country.

To conclude, fan engagement has to be the reinvigoration of has to be the reinvigoration of endless football. It should give the start of a broader conversation about what fans want. Today is about protecting the fans. To inspire generations of tomorrow to protect

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the sport we all love. Unlike many members of this House I retired footballers in the I retired footballers in the shadows. Overwhelmed by hooliganism, it was looked down upon, as your it was looked down upon, as your honourable Member noted. I'm delighted at how football has delighted at how football has changed. As a lifelong Crystal Palace fan, much to my constituents Palace fan, much to my constituents Shane, I followed my team across the country, not to mention gloriously country, not to mention gloriously on the road to Wembley this weekend, and, with the environment secretary and others, and saw how a spectator sport once renowned for violence and prejudice has transformed into one that champions inclusivity will stop the game I love is no longer marginalised.

It is now celebrated, supported by people from all backgrounds, and holds a central place in our national identity. The growth and success of the women's game has been particularly inspiring and is critical to the sports overall development, can I say look forward to Crystal Palace Women regaining their place in the super league next season. As I said in my Maiden speech, I welcome this bill.

20:00

Mr Paul Kohler MP (Wimbledon, Liberal Democrat)

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It is vital to introduce a regulator who can ensure the professional game who can ensure the professional game is sustainable. And that those most important to its success, namely the fans, at its core, despite the fans, at its core, despite the contempt the audible member of Great Yarmouth and the bizarre response Yarmouth and the bizarre response from the Official Opposition. The Premier League, as we have heard, Premier League, as we have heard, has unrivalled global reach. It is has unrivalled global reach.

It is celebrating its global reach and we must not forget football's origins. Football clubs are the lifeblood of communities. The MP for Wimbledon, my constituents understand better than most what happens when clubs are treated as assets. It becomes nothing more than a commercial franchise, the original Wimbledon FC moved to Milton Keynes which remains a deeply traumatic event many of my constituents. Despite opposition from the FA and the football league, it was stolen from the fans and from our community.

Thankfully AFC Middleton rose from the ashes, and is an inspiration to many. A majority fan owned club they are rightly admired and the success demonstrates that clubs thrive when fans are in control. In Wimbledon we are fortunate to have two professional clubs that are deeply involved in the community. Fulham FC's training ground is in my constituency takes in the Fico community work partnering with local schools and community groups and disability charities. While AFC Wimbledon embodies committee spirit even more fervently.

When the COVID-19 pandemic began, three FC Wimbledon fans established the local action group to combat the impact of poverty in our community. Last year they did almost £1 million worth of food to the poorest in Wimbledon. The sustainability of our football clubs is crucial. But a rigid regulatory framework could prevent clubs and those from smaller leagues working their way up the pyramid swiftly as we have seen in the past. Fulham FC have experienced a meteoric rise from the fourth tier at the Premier League in just six years.

They along with others have raised concerns about excessive and strange with could stifle the ambition of smaller clubs. We must strike the right balance, ensuring the behaviour is curtailed but allow clubs the freedom to chase success in responsible and sustainable way. Can I say I support this bill and so surprised by the Tory response. It surprised by the Tory response. It surprised by the Tory response. It

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I think this evening's debate demonstrates all of us, regardless of the opinion we hold in the bill, of the opinion we hold in the bill, just how important our football clubs are to all of our communities. And a sense of pride with which we And a sense of pride with which we have all spoken this evening I think is a tribute to all of our clubs. Sadly, my remarks are slightly Sadly, my remarks are slightly tinged with sadness, because on Saturday, Carlisle United confirmed Saturday, Carlisle United confirmed their relegation to the National their relegation to the National League, using three-two to Cheltenham, and I'm very sorry the honourable member for Cheltenham isn't currently in his place, because I was going to come through gritted teeth, congratulate him on his team at's win.

My spirits are, however, somewhat restored by the provisions of this bill. Namely through the financial stability of our football clubs, protecting the important heritage and assets of our clubs, and ensuring our clubs are engaged with fans on matters important to them. I'm pleased to say that on these three counts at least, -- Carlisle United are in good form. Thanks to the tech family that bought Carlisle United months ago, it has vastly improved. Not only did the new owners by the historic debt, they have invested millions in Brunton Park, creating new facilities, including an excellent fan zone that befits loyal blues fans.

The owners have also agreed terms with Cumberland Council to develop a new training ground, adjacent to the city's athletic facilities. And the board is also conscious of the important cultural heritage of Carlisle United. Last year, to mark the club's 120th anniversary, special exhibition was created at our city's Museum, featuring, among the exhibits, Jimmy's blessed boots and if you do not know, you should look it up. Fan engagement is also strong, with open forums, community involvement, and an active commitment to diversity and inclusion.

This was recognised in August last year when the club was ranked second in English football for fan engagement, by Thinks Fan Engagement. So, while I might be saddened by Carlisle's relegation, I am confident the foundation of the club are stronger than ever. But not all clubs can say this, and this is why this bill is required. I do not need to tell this place in our football clubs are more than just clubs. But they are the lifeblood of our communities. That they bring us together, giving us moments of collective joy and sorrow and engender local pride.

And that is why I am glad we are finally stepping in to give football fans up and down the country some peace of mind about the future of their clubs. While Carlisle might be in the National League next year, I know it is in good hands and I'm reassured the bill will keep the clubs safe as well. At that is how it should be. Because, as the former it should be. Because, as the former Carlisle manager, once said, " Some people think football is a matter of life and death.

I can assure you, it

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is much more serious than that." I broadly agree with the bill,

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I broadly agree with the bill, but if you would kindly indulge me, especially as my team, Leicester City, languish at the bottom of the City, languish at the bottom of the premiership, and relegated to the championship. It is not a new championship. It is not a new experience for Leicester City fans, but what is new, it was hard to bear this season, is the absence of not only fire, passion, but a complete lack of competitive edge. And that lack of competitive edge.

And that brings me to the heart of my remarks today. Madame Deputy Speaker, those of those who admire the beautiful game, for a long time, remember how English football captured the imagination of the world. It was not merely a technical exercise, it was a game of passion, grit, and blood and thunder. Teams were further kitchensink at the opposition to get a goal, and games were contested with courage as much as skill. Within the fabric of the sport's characters, mavericks, personalities, which made the game

20:07

Shockat Adam MP (Leicester South, Independent)

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more than just a business, they made a spectacle. However, today, football is different, there has football is different, there has been a improvements as have already been mentioned by many of the members. What it is now is a highly technical thing. Players are physically, physical specimens sculpted by science. But there is a sculpted by science. But there is a widespread feeling that character is being coached out of our players, leaving behind robotic individuals, tasked with executing tactical tasked with executing tactical blueprints.

My point is this, if football on the pitch is already at risk of losing its fire to rigidity, and over formulation, will regulation off the pitch risk extinguishing the spirit of accommodation entirely. Let me speak from personal experience. Under the late... A man we think about under the terraces, a man who dared to have a dream, promoted from league one to the championship and within six years, Leicester City were crowned Premier league champions, in perhaps the greatest miracle in sporting history.

Out of this happen? By taking certain risks. And one such risk is spending £1 million on a nonleague player in his midtwenties. Absolutely unheard move at the time, an absolute gamble for a club of our size. That player of course was Jamie Vardy, who went on to break records, represent his country and inspire an entire generation. As Jamie now announces his departure after 30 magnificent years, I take this opportunity to say, Jamie, you are the GOAT and thank you for everything you have

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done to us. -- Done for us. It shows ambition, risk-taking

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It shows ambition, risk-taking and dreaming could define the clubs. Madame Deputy Speaker, in the Madame Deputy Speaker, in the essence of competitive sport, it is why some of us are concerned about this bill, will regulation this bill, will regulation inadvertently concern clubs about inadvertently concern clubs about Leicester, they know their place, discipline participate rather than compete. Will it entrench a system compete. Will it entrench a system where a few dominant, where few are dominant, and others merely survive. Of course, reforms are necessary, yes we must improve plan engagement, yes we must protect club heritage, yes we must insist on proper conscientious ownership, but we must not create a sterile landscape where ambition is stifled in dreams are confined to the past.

Madame Deputy Speaker, I seek reassurance on a couple of points. The funding for this legislation, will be channelled probably into grassroots clubs, the lifeblood of our national game, the financial distribution will address, not exasperate, the widening gap of the Premier league and lower divisions, particularly regarding parachute payments of the arbitration process will be fair, promoting compromise, rather than extreme outcomes, and the reviews will be targeted and proportionate, not Ofsted style tick box exercises. We invented this beetle game and

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shared it with the world, it is played in every valley across the globe. Order.

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Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker. When Cristina sat down and the Secretary of State last year in Blackpool, she spoke with a fierce Blackpool, she spoke with a fierce pride of someone who fought for her club and one. She is a generation Blackpool FC fan, and Chair of the trust, she helped the movement that brought integrity, pride, professionalism, block to -- Back to

20:10

Chris Webb MP (Blackpool South, Labour)

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professionalism, block to -- Back to a club on its knees. She said black policy was unique and hope it will stay that way. To politicise football fans is not something we ever wanted, she said, but after being let down so badly, she was left with no choice, her words stay with me, imagining having to go head-to-head with a very club your family supported for generations because you love it too much to watch it be reckless destroyed. That was the reality. After years of mismanagement and failure, to reinvest significant earnings, and a complete disregard for supporters, Blackpool fans took matters into their own hands.

After a four-year boycott, that was the courage and unity by the black. Also Istres, restored pride in our club, and gave hope to fans everywhere. Christine hope to fans everywhere. Christine told us that if we had said to her five years ago, Football Governance Bill was coming, she wouldn't have believed it. It would have been the answer to their prayers, but now, we must get it right. This bill must give fans like Christine, groups like black. All distrust, and millions of fans across the country, the voice they have earned, through their loyalty and sacrifice.

And by parting with the hard earned cash to support their clubs through the high and low. Since its founding in 1887, Blackpool football club has been in constant in our community. But like so many others, we have seen a growing disconnect for those who own our clubs, and those who make the matter. The fans. Fans are the beating heart of football, they turn up, rain or shine, there is a lot of rain in Blackpool, win or lose. But too often, they have been let down and ignored.

Now, nowhere was the need for change more powerfully demonstrated than point Field Road in 2015. Blackpool's stories is not just about survival, it is about what the fans can achieve when they are respected, heard and empowered. It is 1018, Blackpool supporters trust became one of the first fan organisations to formally petition Parliament, for an independent football regulator. They saw what was coming, and they acted. Today with this bill, we are answering their call. This bill will tackle rogue and incompetent owners who will start to rebalance partners -- Power between boardrooms and stance.

It will make sure not Baru, not Redding, not Macclesfield, is ever again allowed to fall into crisis, because rules prevented them. The Premier League is a phenomenal British success story. Watched and envied across the world. Nobody in this House seeks to punish success. But even the greatest teams cannot stand without strong foundations. When 95% of the 3.2 billion in annual broadcast revenue remains with just 26 clubs at the top, the case for fairer distribution, to sustain the whole pyramid, becomes impossible to ignore.

But getting the pyramid as an investment in the future of our national game. That is why the government's approach giving the related targeted backstop powers to intervene is a last resort is the right one. Christine also reminds us of something else. Fans are not just spectators, they are a massive untapped resource of knowledge, passion and experience, that will come to do well here in harness. Blackpool will soon play its last game of the season, hopes sadly falling short, but the stands will be full because loyal fans will turn up and they will do as they always do, giving unwavering support to a team that shows professionalism, determination and ambition for our club.

This bill is for them, it is for every supporter that never gave

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up. Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker. I declare my interest as an Aston Villa season ticket holder and speak Villa season ticket holder and speak therefore somebody experienced of the highs and lows of football. I refer not to the FA Cup final on Saturday, but the moment in 2018, when Aston Villa almost went bust. To own a football club to respect your responsibility as a custodian of an important community of an important community institution. This is not something, institution. This is not something, despite -- This is something despite speeches today, that most owners respect.

The Premier League is the British owners, it is broadcast to 100 and -- 189 different countries, and more than 2 billion people follow the league weekly. They are invested not only in top talent, through divisions and grassroots facilities overseen by the excellent facilities overseen by the excellent football foundation. The new cross in my constituency for example is home to Hever Hill Rovers who just became champions of a nonleague first division North, and incredible all-weather pitches that host more than 50 teams of different ages and abilities.

So, what is the problem that this bill seeks to fix? The government says the new regulator will protect and promote the sustainability of English football. The examples given to justify regulation Arboretum and Macclesfield town, amongst others. But the experience of these clubs shows the power of community and support activism. Berry was rescued by supporters week, and Macclesfield by a local businessman. Both are by a local businessman. Both are

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