House of Commons
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Oral Answers to Questions
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)
1. What recent representations he has received on the competitiveness of UK airports.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond)
I regularly receive representations from the aviation industry and other stakeholders on a range of issues relating to UK airports.
Mike Freer
I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. He may be aware that some have suggested a congestion levy on south-east airports to fund a discount on air passenger duty in regional airports. What assessment has he made of the competitiveness of south-east airports in view of this ludicrous suggestion?
Mr Hammond
I think my hon. Friend’s question betrays the fact that he has already made his own assessment. I believe that this suggestion was made in a response by regional airports to a consultation on APD conducted by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. No doubt the Chancellor will respond to those suggestions in due course.
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
I think it is an excellent suggestion. There is huge capacity in the regional airports and since there has been complete freedom to fly anywhere in Europe, it has been difficult for Governments to use that capacity. Does the Secretary of State have any ideas how that extra capacity in regional airports can be used to the benefit of the UK economy?
Mr Hammond
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: there is significant capacity in our regional airport runways. We have to recognise that the demand for aviation growth in the UK is not just an aggregate demand—it has a certain geographical distribution—but I am keen that the regional airports play a role in meeting that demand. I believe that the high-speed rail project will help them to do so.
Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)
As part of the review, will the Secretary of State discuss with the Treasury the viability of having an APD holiday for new long-haul routes from regional airports to improve their competitiveness with south-east airports and airports on the continent?
Mr Hammond
As I said, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has conducted a consultation on the future of APD and he has made it clear that any changes to the system would have to be broadly revenue-neutral. I do not know whether my hon. Friend submitted his suggestion during the course of the consultation, but if not, I am sure that the Chancellor would be prepared to take it as a late entry.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
Does not the Secretary of State agree that the competitiveness of Belfast airports is gravely impinged by the fact that APD is levied at £120 for a return on business-class long-haul flights from Belfast, while 90 miles down the road in Dublin, it is €3 going down to zero. Clearly, as far as Northern Ireland is concerned, there is a strong case for looking at the issue of APD.
Mr Hammond
Once again, I am certain that the right hon. Gentleman will have submitted his views to the Chancellor in the consultation to which I just referred.
Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)
Britain’s business community finds it incredible that the Government have no intention of bringing forward a proper strategy for aviation and UK airports for the next two years. Opposition Members believe that any expansion in aviation must be sustainable, but is it not nonsense for the Government to rule out any expansion in the south-east, regardless of whether or not it can be demonstrated to be sustainable. Is not the chief executive of London First right when she warns that this failure is
“damaging our economy and enhancing that of our EU rivals”?
Mr Hammond
The hon. Lady is right that we have a big challenge in relation to aviation growth in the south-east. What I did not hear her do was repeat Labour’s policy to build a third runway at Heathrow airport. Perhaps at some stage she could tell the House whether that remains Labour’s policy. The coalition Government cancelled the third runway at Heathrow because of the unacceptable environmental burden that it imposed, but we are committed to developing a new and sustainable aviation strategy that will allow the growth of aviation in the UK—but only when it meets its environmental obligations.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
2. What recent representations he has received on varying national motorway speed limits.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mike Penning)
My ministerial colleagues and I have received a variety of representations, including via the red tape challenge to the highways regulations, on the subject of varying the motorway speed limit. The issue raises interesting aspects of our current behaviour, and we will continue to look at it.
Stephen Mosley
The maximum motorway speed limit in several European countries, including France, Italy and Germany, is currently greater than 80 mph. In order to help deliver the economic benefit of reduced journey time, will my hon. Friend consider increasing the motorway speed limit to 80 mph?
Mike Penning
The existing limit has been in place since the ’60s. We will weigh up safety and environmental aspects against enforcement—although we all know that 70 mph is not being enforced—and how increasing the speed limit to 80 mph would help the country to grow in infrastructure. We will look at the balance in those areas.
Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)
In assessing the impact on safety of increasing motorway speed limits, does the Minister agree that another potential consequence will be our ability to meet our carbon dioxide emission targets? Has he received any representations from his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change who, as we know, is something of an expert on these matters?
Mike Penning
I have great respect for the hon. Gentleman, who had my job before me, but he should have listened to the answer I gave a few moments ago before reading out his prepared question. We will balance the environmental aspects against the safety aspects, and also take into account the legislative process and whether or not we can get Britain moving better.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
May I press the Minister a little further? What analysis has he done of the extra fuel usage and CO2 emissions that would result from increasing the speed limit from 70 to 80?
Mike Penning
The hon. Gentleman should also have listened to what I said. I did not say that we had conducted the consultation; I said we would balance various aspects during the consultation, and I am sure he would like to take part in that consultation and in our discussion about what is the right balance.
Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
3. What steps he is taking to improve the flow of traffic in urban areas.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)
We are providing local authorities with the right tools and the freedom to use them effectively. Our £560 million local sustainable transport fund will contribute to local schemes that support growth and reduce carbon.
Mr Spellar
Last week, in answer to a written question that I tabled on street works, the Minister stated that an independent report had found that legislation was “fit for purpose” but local authority practice needed to improve. He can certainly say that again! He only has to step outside this building to see the chaos caused by nearby street works that continue for week after week with no work actually being done, and that pattern is repeated across London and the rest of urban Britain. What is he going to do to create a sense of urgency about freeing up the roads—and, as a start, will he get Boris to focus on his day job and start sorting out London’s roads?
Norman Baker
All of us have considerable sympathy for those who encounter street works, which are a nuisance to motorists and pedestrians alike, and which cause congestion and adversely affect business. We are keen to take steps to improve matters, including by developing regulations to allow targeted lane rental schemes, cutting red tape from the private scheme approval process, and considering utility works overrun charges.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
4. When he expects the Swindon to Kemble railway redoubling project to commence.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
Network Rail has commenced design work, and I expect implementation to start in 2012-13, with completion by 2014-15 ahead of electrification works on the Great Western main line in 2016-17.
Neil Carmichael
Does the Minister agree that this is an example of intelligent investment to promote economic growth? It will be great news for Gloucestershire, and stands in complete contrast to the failure of the last Labour Government to provide any support of this kind to the railway system.
Mrs Villiers
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question. He and many of his colleagues in the House have fought a hard campaign for redoubling, and I am delighted that the coalition can deliver that. In addition, the introduction of intercity express programme trains should lead to reductions in journey times and to frequent services, which will benefit the economy in his constituency and surrounding areas.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
My right hon. Friend will know that local businesses, local MPs—including me—and the local authority in Swindon would like to see the development of a branch station on the Kemble line at Sparcells. What advice and encouragement can she give to me and to local agencies on the development of that station?
Mrs Villiers
My hon. Friend has also fought a hard campaign to improve rail services in his area. My advice in respect of that project would be to continue to engage closely with the local authority, which has the leading role in taking forward and funding such projects, and to engage closely with Network Rail and the train operator to see what might be logistically feasible to consider in the future.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
5. What progress has been made on the review of toll charges on the Humber bridge.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)
The second phase of the Humber bridge review was launched on 14 June, and we are now in the process of meeting stakeholders to gather views and ideas. As part of that process, the Economic Secretary to the Treasury and I intend to meet interested Members, including the hon. Gentleman.
Norman Baker
I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concern, of course, but the fact of the matter is that the Humber Bridge Board applied for an increase. I decided unilaterally to have a public inquiry, where people’s representations could be heard. The inspector came back with a clear recommendation in support of the board’s application for an increase, and there is no reason for Ministers to take a contrary view. What I would say, however, is that there has been no increase in the toll since 2006.
Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)
Notwithstanding the decision of the Humber Bridge Board this week to implement the recommended increase from 1 October—just six or seven weeks before we anticipate the review being completed—does the Minister agree that, irrespective of the outcome regarding the tolls, the governance of the bridge clearly needs revising so that residents and the local community have a clear spokesman? At the moment, councillors are almost forbidden from taking part.
Norman Baker
I sympathise with the point that my hon. Friend is making. The governors’ arrangements for the bridge are part of the review that we are undertaking. We inherited an unsustainable position from the previous Government in relation to the bridge. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury and I are very concerned about this and we are determined to make progress if we can on this matter and others.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
In the general election, the Liberal Democrats ran a “Ditch the Humber Bridge Debt” campaign. In the light of the Minister’s decision to endorse the 11% increase, should he not think again? Is this not another example of the Lib Dems’ promises in the manifesto being broken now they are in government?
Norman Baker
I think that what the hon. Lady wanted to say was that we have decided, since the election, to offer a reduced interest rate on the Humber Bridge Board’s debt, which will save the board £48 million in interest payments over the next five years.
Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con)
6. What progress his Department has made on its consultation on High Speed 2.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond)
I launched the national consultation on high speed rail on 28 February. It will close at midnight on 29 July and decisions will follow by December. The Government consider that a high-speed rail network between London and Birmingham and onward to Manchester and Leeds would drive economic growth and prosperity as well as providing vital new capacity on the west coast corridor.
Mr Hammond
Absolutely. My hon. Friend makes the point very clearly. I believe that it is not possible for Britain to maintain its prosperity in the 21st century in an increasingly competitive global economy unless we can close the growth gap between north and south. Governments for the past 50 or 60 years have wrestled with this challenge and we have not succeeded yet. This approach of investing in strategic infrastructure is the last best chance to achieve that.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
Does the Secretary of State share my view that developing the eastern leg of the “Y”, which will link the great core cities of Nottingham, Sheffield and Leeds, has a very strong business case and should be prioritised?
Mr Hammond
I agree that it has a very strong business case and it will be part of the “Y” network, but the logic of building this project is that we have to do the complex engineering challenge of getting out of London through tunnels—the difficult bit of the project—first. In engineering terms, once we are out of the tunnels, it is pretty much plain sailing to complete the remainder of the construction.
Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD)
Will the Minister please give thought to the people of the west country who have some of the slowest rail links with London and some of the most expensive fares? Rather than extra, speedy lines north, we would like some speedy and efficient lines south-west.
Mr Hammond
I am delighted to be able to tell my hon. Friend that electrification of the Great Western main line and the introduction of the IEP rolling stock will improve services in terms of speed, reliability, comfort and capacity on services between London and the west country.
Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)
7. What steps his Department is taking to ensure that the Crossrail programme provides adequate toilet facilities at stations and on its rolling stock.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
Provision of adequate and accessible facilities is an important consideration for many passengers. The majority of Crossrail stations will have toilet facilities. Since this will be a high frequency metro service, with most passengers travelling relatively short distances, we have no current plans to provide toilets on Crossrail trains.
Emily Thornberry
Crossrail is currently building a huge new station at Farringdon, which we welcome. However, will the Minister join me in urging Crossrail to build some toilets at Farringdon station? As Councillor Charalambous so eloquently put it:
“They are causing years of inconvenience to local residents and businesses—this is the least they can do. At the end of the day,”
men
“piss against everything around here—inevitably they’ll be pissing in their stations and they won’t like it.”
Mrs Villiers
I am sure the hon. Lady will be aware that the redevelopment of Farringdon station involves Crossrail and Thameslink. It is going to be an exceptionally busy and important station after that and there will be toilet facilities. It is intended that those facilities will be provided in the London underground aspect as part of the Thameslink upgrade, so Crossrail passengers are likely to have access to facilities nearby as part of the London underground upgrade.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
When it comes to providing toilets, and indeed the whole rolling stock, will the Minister assure me that there will be a level playing field so that there is a fair chance that rolling stock can be constructed in Derby in the UK, rather than in Germany as in the announcement last week?
Mrs Villiers
It is vitally important that all procurement processes are entirely fair to suppliers, including Bombardier.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
8. What proportion of its stake in NATS Ltd the Government plan to sell; and if he will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond)
I recently launched a call for evidence on whether the Government need to retain a shareholding in NATS in order to meet our aviation policy objectives. The results will inform decisions on whether to sell all, part or none of the Government’s shareholding in the company. I expect to update the House once we have considered the responses to the call for evidence.
Kevin Brennan
Do I take it from that reply that the Secretary of State is considering a complete sell-off of the Government’s interest in NATS? Will he also tell us what consultations he is having with the staff and the airline group about their views on the matter?
Mr Hammond
The call for evidence has gone to stakeholders in and around the company and the air traffic sector. We asked what the implications would be of selling all, part or none of our shareholding. We are open-minded and conscious of the fact that there could be strategic implications, and we want to understand from the people who work in the industry what those strategic implications might be before making any decision.
Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)
9. What recent discussions he has had with FirstGroup on the future of the First Great Western rail franchise; and if he will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)
Department for Transport Ministers and officials meet franchised train operators and their owners regularly. These discussions have included the decision which has been announced by First Great Western to exit the franchise in March 2013.
Chris Evans
On the electrification of the Great Western line, what action is being taken to ensure that the new franchisee works with Network Rail so that there is minimum customer disruption during that period?
Norman Baker
I assure the hon. Gentleman that that element is an important part of the forward programme that is occurring.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
When the First Great Western franchise is retendered, would the Minister consider allowing a provision to allow sufficient capital investment to improve the car parking at Kemble, which is already at capacity?
Norman Baker
We are reviewing the full franchise process, led by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State. As part of the franchise consideration, we are looking at longer franchises that may include that sort of issue in due course.
Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)
Given the circumstances in which FirstGroup decided to relinquish the contract, how will the Minister address new franchises so that both the interests of the taxpayer and the welfare of passengers are heeded?
Norman Baker
That is an important and quite correct question, because the present franchise held by First Great Western was undoubtedly skewed towards the operator and away from the fare payer and the taxpayer. It is not a franchise that, frankly, the Government would want replicated. The whole process of franchise renewal is designed to eliminate that sort of unfair franchise.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
I certainly endorse the Minister’s most recent remarks. Residents in Melksham in my constituency will want to do a lot better from the new franchise than they did from the last one. Will he tell us when the public will have an opportunity to contribute to a consultation on the draft specification for the new Great Western franchise?
Norman Baker
I assure my hon. Friend that that matter has been fully taken on board. There will be a full consultation, including with residents of his constituency.
Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)
FirstGroup also manages First Capital Connect, the franchisee operating the Thameslink route. As that franchisee has consistently low scores on customer performance, will the Minister give an assurance that the franchise will not automatically be extended in 2015 but that we will have an opportunity to put it out to tender once again?
Norman Baker
No decision has been made on that matter, although clearly there are franchise terms to be adhered to by the franchise holder, and requirements in law that must be adhered to by them and the Department. Performance is an important matter for the railway and it is something I take seriously, as does my right hon. Friend the Minister of State. I am aware of the concerns that have been expressed by passengers on the hon. Gentleman’s line and I shall be meeting railway operatives later today to discuss performance on the railway, including on his line.
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
10. If he will bring forward proposals to ensure the provision of accessible public travel information for blind and partially sighted people.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)
The Department is committed to improving accessible transport information that is available to enable people to plan their full journey. For example, the development of a journey planner for spectators going to the Olympics has provided an important new opportunity to achieve high standards of accessible information.
Mr Cunningham
I thank the Minister for that answer, but has he had any discussions with the railway operators, particularly in relation to the implications of cuts in the staffing of railway stations for people with disabilities?
Norman Baker
Matters relating to individual stations are, of course, ultimately ones for the franchise holder, but we have offered financial support for new information systems at more than 170 railway stations since 2006 and audio-visual passenger systems have been mandatory for all new rail vehicles since 1998.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
I received a visit from my constituent, Lionel Broughton, on this matter with regard to buses. My local bus company, Stagecoach, has said that it will look at introducing visual and voice announcements on its fleet. Can the Minister do anything to give the industry a nudge?
Norman Baker
I am delighted to say that I wrote to the Confederation of Passenger Transport, which represents the main bus operators, on 23 May, to give exactly that nudge.
Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)
11. What recent assessment he has made of the effects on household budgets of changes in rail fares.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
A distributional analysis of the impact of rail fare increases was conducted during the spending review and used to inform Department for Transport and Treasury decisions on spending review outcomes.
Katy Clark
I thank the Minister for that answer. Is she aware of research by Passenger Focus that shows that people who buy their tickets from ticket machines pay far more expensive fares than if they used one of the staffed ticket offices? The McNulty report calls for the closure of half of all our staffed railway offices. Will she decide to reject those proposals to ensure, among many other reasons, that people get the cheapest fares they can?
Mrs Villiers
The industry needs to do a lot better on its ticket machines and to ensure that passengers are properly informed about the ticket choices available. We will continue to challenge the industry to do that through our fares review and the White Paper on the future of the rail industry which we intend to publish in November.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
Given the Government’s decision to increase rail fares by 3% above inflation for each of the next three years, many commuters will have to spend a fifth of their household income—more than their mortgage or rent—just to get to work. Incidentally, that would be equivalent to the Minister of State having to pay almost £20,000 a year. Instead of asking commuters to plug the hole caused by the transport budget being cut too far and too fast, will she think again?
Mrs Villiers
We faced the largest peacetime deficit that we have ever faced. To continue with the biggest programme of rail upgrades in modern history, we unfortunately must ask passengers to make a contribution. The blame lies fairly and squarely with the previous Government for leaving us with a deficit and letting the cost of the railways spiral out of control.
Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con)
12. What assessment his Department has made of the potential benefit to the economy of upgrading the railway line between Cambridge and King’s Lynn.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
Our current plans envisage that passengers on the fen line could benefit from new intercity express trains from 2018. That would offer improved passenger accommodation and a shorter journey time to London, subject to a satisfactory outcome to contractual negotiations with Agility Trains and timetabling arrangements that will be finalised with the future franchisee.
Elizabeth Truss
With the area’s economic growth and the fact that passenger numbers between Downham Market and Cambridge have increased by 150% in the past 10 years, does the Minister agree that expanding the fen line northwards should be a key consideration in Network Rail’s next phased upgrade?
Mrs Villiers
My hon. Friend has campaigned strongly to improve services on the fen line. I pay tribute to her and the other local MPs who take this seriously. She is absolutely right that passenger numbers have been increasing. This has been a real success story. I would certainly encourage her and her constituents to engage with Network Rail, as it looks to the next railway control period to see what infrastructure improvements might be deliverable within affordability constraints.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
14. What steps he is taking to encourage take-up of low-carbon vehicles.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond)
The Government have made provision of over £400 million for measures to promote the uptake of ultra-low-carbon vehicle technologies. These measures include support for consumer incentives, the development of recharging infrastructure and a programme of research, development and demonstration work. Low-emission vehicles also benefit from tax advantages.
Jo Swinson
A convenient network of publicly available charging points is essential if we are to encourage the uptake of electric cars, so I welcome the £1.45 million of Government funding for Transport Scotland to build 375 charging points across the central belt of Scotland, but I was concerned at BBC media reports last month suggesting that the UK in general is behind schedule in getting these charging points in place. Will the Secretary of State give us an update on progress on charging points?
Mr Hammond
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her question and I agree that we need to understand the way in which the public expect to use public charging points, in order to understand how we can best roll out the electric vehicle programme. Early evidence from other countries has produced some results that might not have been intuitive before the demonstration projects. It is true that the total number of charging posts that are rolled out will be less than was originally envisaged, because in a number of cases promoters of the plugged-in places schemes have determined that multi-headed charging posts are the best way forward. That accounts for some of the discrepancy in numbers to which I think the hon. Lady is referring.
Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)
Will the Minister consider maintaining the duty differential for sustainable biofuels? This has played an important role in creating green jobs, which are now threatened by the removal of the differential in April 2012.
Mr Hammond
As my hon. Friend knows, the differential plays an important role in bringing forward sustainable biofuels. In particular, the re-use of used oils is an important source of sustainable fuels. However, all matters relating to duty are for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor to consider and, when the current arrangements expire in 2012, he will consider whether to renew them and on what basis.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
15. What recent discussions he has had with the Mayor of London on public transport provision during the London 2012 Olympics.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond)
I have lead accountability in Government for transport preparations for the 2012 Olympic games. Ministers and departmental officials regularly meet and correspond with the Mayor of London and Transport for London officials on a variety of London transport issues, including those in relation to the 2012 Olympics. The Mayor of London also attends the regular meetings of the Cabinet Sub-Committee overseeing preparations for the Olympics, of which I am a member.
Mr Ellwood
Not all the events are taking place in London. Bournemouth is still coming to terms with losing the bid for the beach volleyball to Horse Guards Parade. However, Weymouth is delighted to be hosting the sailing events. Will the Secretary of State outline what improvements to transport will take place for 2012 in that area?
Mr Hammond
I agree that on the face of it Bournemouth has a better beach than Horse Guards Parade, but there we are. My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the transport challenges around the other venues. Plans to improve transport access to Weymouth during the Olympic games include temporary traffic management and a £5.7 million scheme to improve the Canford Bottom roundabout, which will include the installation of 70 additional traffic lights to control traffic flow. During this summer, the Highways Agency will be trialling the use of its traffic officers on the route between London and Weymouth as an additional means to manage traffic flows.
Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
16. What plans he has for future improvements on the A63.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mike Penning)
The spending review announcement in October 2010 listed the A63 Castle street improvement scheme for potential construction in future spending review periods, subject to the statutory process.
Karl Turner
The Labour council has had productive talks with Associated British Ports and Siemens this week, but is it not about time the Government became enthusiastic about the massive investment in my constituency and considered bringing forward plans to improve the A63? We are desperate for that.
Mike Penning
The Government are very enthusiastic as well, and there have been discussions with colleagues in the area and the Secretary of State in past days. We have to accept the financial mess that the previous Administration left us in, but we will do everything we can. If there are huge investments going in, perhaps the investors would also like to invest in that infrastructure, as is the case in other parts of the country.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
The Humber local economic partnership recently submitted a bid for an enterprise zone based around both sides of the Humber—the green port in Hull and the Able UK site on the south Humber gateway. The A63 will be key to linking that. What discussions has my hon. Friend had with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills about the enterprise zone? Will he work in a joined-up way across Government to progress the A63 development?
Mike Penning
We work across Government on all such projects. We accept that enterprise zones will bring in more investment and growth, which is what we need to get out of the financial mess that we are in. I am sure that we will meet other Ministers and work forwards, but we have to go through the statutory process first.
Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)
17. Whether he plans to bring forward proposals to prevent unplanned industrial action on London Underground.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
Existing legislation requires trade unions contemplating industrial action to ballot their membership and give due notice to the employer. The Government encourage both London Underground and the trade unions representing its employees to resolve disputes as quickly as possible through negotiation.
Gavin Barwell
Given the huge disruption that strikes on the underground cause for my constituents and for London’s economy, is it not about time that there was a no-strike agreement on this vital public service, preferably negotiated with the union, but failing that through Government legislation?
Mrs Villiers
Of course, I am well aware of the Mayor’s ambitions to get a no-strike agreement, which I think would be very positive if he could negotiate it with the unions. With regard to changing strike law, the Government are not rushing to any kind of confrontation with the unions, but Mr Crow and his colleagues at the RMT must recognise that the more irresponsibly they behave, holding London to ransom, the more they strengthen the argument of those who want a change in strike law.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond)
Since I last answered departmental questions, Sir Roy McNulty has published his report on improving value for money on our railways, which I have committed to responding to by publishing detailed proposals for the future of the railways before the end of the year. I have published a new strategic framework for road safety and announced the outcome of the competition to build carriages for the Thameslink programme. Today my right hon. Friend the Minister of State has launched a consultation on proposals to reform the air travel organiser’s licence holiday protection scheme. I have also dealt with the consequences of the Grimsvotn volcano eruption, which is a good deal easier to say than Eyjafjallajokull and, I am pleased to say, caused a good deal less disruption.
Kate Green
Trafford Park in my constituency is home to many international businesses and makes a crucial contribution to UK manufacturing and exports. Excellent rail links are essential to its success. In planning for High Speed 2, what is being done to ensure that it and the wider regional rail network are fully integrated?
Mr Hammond
I would make two points to the hon. Lady. First, High Speed 2 will release significant amounts of capacity on the west coast main line, which will be available for different types of service, including freight. Secondly, we are clear that high-speed rail is not an alternative to investment in our conventional railways. Once people arrive at the high-speed destinations they will still need to get to their local destinations across the region, so we have to reinforce the regional rail networks as part and parcel of the programme of rail investment.
Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
T3. I recently had the pleasure of meeting the parish council in the village of South Kyme in my constituency, which brought to my attention the loss of the village’s only bus service. Many constituents have reported to me the loss of bus services, which are incredibly important for rural communities. What support can the Department lend to re-establish that service and ensure that those that exist remain?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)
As my hon. and learned Friend will recognise, the provision of bus services is primarily a matter for either commercial operators or local councils through tendered services, but we are cognisant of the importance of such services in rural areas and so have provided £10 million extra for community transport initiatives, and the local sustainable transport fund of £560 million allows investment in bus services in rural areas.
Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)
This morning the Transport Committee asked the Government to withdraw their modernisation proposals for the coastguard and consult on revised plans. Its report is very clear:
“The evidence we have received raises serious concerns that safety will be jeopardised if these proposals proceed.”
Despite failing to do so before now, will the Secretary of State finally listen to coastguards up and down the country and abandon his dangerous and reckless plan to close more than half of Britain’s coastguard stations?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mike Penning)
We welcome the Committee’s report. If the hon. Lady looks at it carefully, she will see that it actually says that the status quo is not acceptable and that coastguard stations need to close. The process we inherited from the previous Administration had been sitting on their desks for years. We said right at the start of the process that we would listen and come up with proposals after consulting. It is a shame that they did not do the same.
Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con)
T4. Will the Minister meet me to discuss performance issues on the Medway valley line, which runs through my constituency?
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
I would be entirely happy to do that. It is important that all rail passengers have access to reliable services. The Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) and I are very focused on that issue and would be happy to meet my hon. Friend.
Margaret Beckett (Derby South) (Lab)
Is the Secretary of State aware that words such as “rebalancing our economy to promote private sector jobs and skilled manufacturing” ring very hollow in Derby, where 3,000 such jobs are now at risk as a result of a decision to build Thameslink trains in Germany? I understand that the Government reviewed and reconfirmed the contract after the election, but I understand also that the Secretary of State still has the power to call in the process and to invite the bidders to re-tender. Can he confirm that he will now do so?
Mr Philip Hammond
I understand the disappointment felt by Bombardier and, indeed, the anxiety felt by the people of Derby about that decision, but before the right hon. Lady delivers me a finger-wagging lecture perhaps I can remind her of a couple of points. Her Government designed and initiated the procurement process, and some Members may remember that they used to call it Thameslink 2000. We inherited it 16 years late and £600 million over budget, and it fell to us effectively to open the envelope. The procurement was carried out under the terms of the EU directive, and the Siemens bid offered the best value for money on the criteria for appraisal set out in the original competition that the previous Government launched. We have to comply with EU law, and I do not have the power that she suggests I have.
I firmly believe that free trade and open markets are the best way for us to proceed, but I believe also in the concept of the level playing field, and there is a case for looking at the way in which some of our neighbours and competitors operate the EU procurement directive, because it seems quite astonishing that, complying with that directive as we do, they have managed to achieve very high percentage penetrations of French-built trains on the French railway and of German-built trains on the German railway.
Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con)
T6. As my right hon. Friend has just said, the previous Government tied the hands of this Government on such decisions, including the Thameslink contract, which, as he is aware, affects my constituency. What can we do to ensure that British business does not lose out as a result of this false economy of going for cheap foreign contracts that leave us picking up the domestic dole bill?
Mr Hammond
I understand the concern of people in Crewe as well, of course, but we must not fall into a trap. The Siemens bid clearly offered the best value for money, and we must not lose sight of that fact. The wider issue of how we operate the procurement directive, and of how we work with the UK supply chain in industries such as rolling stock construction, is something that we need to review, and I am in discussions with my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary about how we do that.
Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab)
T5. I recently met a group of my constituents from Hunter Lodge in Wigan, who told me that they are unable to travel together on train services throughout the country because most companies will carry only one wheelchair user at a time. Does the Minister agree that, 16 years after the landmark Disability Discrimination Act 1995, it is entirely unacceptable that that appalling situation should continue? What is he therefore doing to put pressure on train companies to ensure that the situation does not continue?
Norman Baker
I entirely sympathise with the hon. Lady’s point about disabled people having difficulty accessing some trains. There is a long-standing arrangement by which trains are expected to become compliant by 2020, and we are sticking to that and putting pressure on the train companies to accelerate it wherever possible. In addition, we are spending a good deal of money on access for all at railway stations in order to ensure that stations themselves are properly accessible to all people who want to use them.
Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)
T7. Can the Minister provide an assurance that the granting of a short-term, two-and-a-half year contract for the Greater Anglia rail franchise will not delay planning for the reintroduction of a through service from Liverpool Street to Lowestoft?
Mrs Villiers
The issue of a short franchise will not have an impact one way or another on those decisions, so I can give my hon. Friend an assurance on that. I cannot guarantee that future franchises will necessarily reintroduce through services, so it will be very important, with him, to work with bidders for the next franchise to find out what they consider viable and commercially viable. I can assure him, however, that the Government’s commitment to delivering the Beccles loop will provide more frequent services and, I hope, a significant economic benefit to his constituents.
Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)
Commuters in Lewisham repeatedly express to me their anger about having to pay ever increasing rail fares for ever more overcrowded train services. What discussions has the Minister had recently with the Mayor of London to impress on him that train services are as important, if not more so, than his beloved bikes?
Mrs Villiers
I can assure the hon. Lady that this Government are placing a high priority on tackling overcrowding on our railways. In more or less every spending squeeze there has ever been, the first thing that gets axed is transport upgrade projects. We have committed significant funds to the Mayor of London to upgrade London’s transport systems, and we are committing significant funds across the rest of the country to support investment in our railways to relieve overcrowding. It is a high priority for us and for the Mayor.
Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con)
T8. What steps is my right hon. Friend taking to mitigate the effects of foreign hauliers who use their advantage of being able to buy fuel more cheaply on the continent to undercut British companies?
Mike Penning
We have a commitment to bringing in lorry road user charging to level the playing field. It is important, however, that we do not penalise our own truckers with whatever scheme we bring in. We are in ongoing negotiations with the Treasury and we are committed to introducing a scheme in this Parliament.
Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)
The Secretary of State will no doubt have seen the reports in yesterday’s newspapers about Willie Walsh of British Airways having suggested that as a consequence of the fact that a third runway will not be built in the south-east at Heathrow, he will increase BA’s business in Madrid. Is that not rather ironic?
Mr Philip Hammond
I am pleased to see that British Airways, along with BAA, now accepts the finality of the coalition Government’s decision that we will not allow the building of a third runway at Heathrow airport. However, that is not the end of the matter. We have to provide for aviation growth in the south-east of England, and in the UK as a whole, in order to meet the needs of a growing economy in future. That is why we have launched a scoping document and will bring forward a new sustainable aviation policy by the end of next year.
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
T9. Will my right hon. Friend update the House on what progress has been made on the reopening of the Todmorden curve, which will provide a faster rail route between East Lancashire and Manchester?
Mrs Villiers
I am very much aware of the potential benefits of that project in helping to regenerate an area that is heavily dependent on public sector jobs. For precisely those reasons, it would be an impressive candidate for funding from the regional growth fund. I understand that the local authorities are working on that at the moment. I pay tribute to the work done by those in Burnley and on Lancashire county council on getting the project moving. My officials stand ready, and are indeed working with the local authorities, to see how we might be able to help to take things forward. This is primarily a local matter, but there is the real prospect of a successful RGF bid.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
Eddington identified congestion as a major and growing cost to the economy. Across Europe, towns and cities have light rail systems, which alleviate congestion. When are the Government going to put real political will and resource behind developing light rail systems across Britain?
Norman Baker
I am happy to say that we have done a great deal for light rail in the time since the general election, including authorising extensions to the systems in Nottingham, Manchester and Birmingham. I have authorised a tram trial project in Sheffield and commissioned a report internally on value for money in light rail, and that report is now on my desk. We recognise the values of light rail and we are taking it forward in a real way.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
1. What assessment she has made of the effects on women workers of proposed reforms of parental leave.
Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)
7. What assessment she has made of the effects on women workers of proposed reforms of parental leave.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Minister for Women and Equalities (Mrs Theresa May)
Our proposals for a new system of parental leave will protect mothers’ rights while giving families more choice and flexibility over how they can share their work and caring responsibilities. The proposals mean that working mothers will be better able to keep in touch with their employer, and they will also aid career progression for working mothers and help to tackle pregnancy discrimination.
Charlie Elphicke
One of the key problems faced by working mothers is the gender pay gap, which is a shocking thing. Will these reforms help to reduce the gender pay gap?
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for raising that issue. I think that the reforms will reduce the gender pay gap, because the division of caring responsibilities between parents is one of the underlying issues. The current arrangements for parental leave reflect an expectation that the mother will stay at home and care for the children. Those arrangements urgently need reform. Although we will use a range of approaches to reduce the gender pay gap, this is an important element.
Gavin Barwell
In the light of the Prime Minister’s speech about the importance of men taking responsibility and a more active role in the upbringing of their children, is it not time for a much more flexible system, which encourages and allows them to do that?
Mrs May
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. That is precisely what our flexible parental leave proposals, on which we are consulting, will do. Crucially, they will not only allow the father and mother to share parental leave, but will enable them to take time off together in the early stages following the child’s birth, if that is what they want. It will be possible for fathers to be much more involved in the very early stage of their child’s life.
Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)
2. What steps she is taking to reduce the incidence of homophobia in sport.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Minister for Women and Equalities (Mrs Theresa May)
We are encouraging every club, team, player and fan to sign up to our new charter, “Tackling Homophobia and Transphobia in Sport”, and to work with us to put an end to homophobia and transphobia in sport. We are working with the top sports national bodies, Sport England and the London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games to tackle this issue. I am pleased to say that yesterday the Prime Minister hosted a reception in No. 10 to celebrate the good work that is under way to drive homophobia and transphobia out of sport.
Dr Poulter
Given our wish to get a lot of young people involved in sport, and with the Olympics happening next year, does my right hon. Friend agree that we need to break down homophobic attitudes among young people in particular and to ensure that young people can fully participate in sport? What will the Government do to facilitate that?
Mrs May
I agree with my hon. Friend that that is important. We want sport to be welcoming for everyone. Spectators and participants should feel that there is no barrier for them, and should not feel concerned about the sort of comments they might hear. It is important that young people are taught and shown the way forward. I think that our charter will help to do that.
We need to work on homophobia particularly in relation to football. Over time, football has not done enough to deal with this issue. Sadly, the terraces of football clubs are too often places where homophobic and transphobic comments are made. I am pleased to say that the Football Association was represented at the reception at No. 10 yesterday. Too often in the past there has been a reluctance among the football authorities to deal with this issue and frankly it is time that football got its house in order.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
I wholeheartedly endorse what the Minister for Women and Equalities has said about football. It is a great sadness that there has been only one out gay footballer, and he ended up committing suicide partly because of the reaction. Has the Minister come across the charity Diversity Role Models? It plays an important role in taking gay and lesbian people from many walks of life into schools, so that young people can see that the homophobic bullying to which they might have been subjected is not the right way forward.
Mrs May
I am not aware of that organisation, but I am happy for the hon. Gentleman to send me details about it. It is important that we use every opportunity to ensure that young people get the right messages, and that they do not just stand on the terraces or participate in sport and get the wrong messages. One problem, as the hon. Gentleman said, is that only a few key sports people have come out across a number of sports.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
I welcome what the Minister said in relation to the Olympics and tackling homophobia. Have the Government thought about how the Olympics can be used to encourage participating countries to tackle homophobia in their home countries?
Mrs May
The Olympic games present an important opportunity for a clear message to be sent across the world. The London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games has already produced a pin badge which, as well as the London 2012 logo, features a rainbow flag illustrating its commitment to tackling homophobia and transphobia in sport. It is considering what else it can do.
We should send that message from the Olympic games to other countries, but we should do more, and I am pleased to say that Ministers have agreed to raise lesbian, gay, bisexual and transsexual issues with other Governments whenever possible during overseas visits. The Minister for Equalities, my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone), did just that during her recent trip to India and Nepal.
Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)
3. What steps she is taking to improve the recording of disability hate crimes.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Miller)
The Government are committed to better recording of hate crimes, and important progress has already been made. Since April, police forces have been formally collecting data on disability hate crime for the first time. We are working with key voluntary sector partners, including disabled people’s organisations such as Voice UK and RADAR, to encourage more reporting of hate crimes, and I think that that will make a significant contribution.
Chris Skidmore
In the light of tragic cases such as that of Fiona Pilkington, and the publication this week of Mencap’s “Don’t Stand By” report, does the Minister agree that police forces must identify the key challenges to the tackling of disability hate crime, and must use the data that they collect to improve the fight against that appalling abuse?
Maria Miller
I agree with my hon. Friend that it is important for us to learn lessons. I welcome Mencap’s report, and was delighted to attend its launch earlier this week.
The police face a number of challenges, including not just data collection but the need to show leadership, to show that they are making the issue a priority, and to ensure that the right training is provided. I pay tribute to organisations such as Breakthrough UK in Manchester and BSafe Blackpool, with whose representatives I have discussed the issue at length.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
Has the Minister discussed with the Secretary of State for Justice whether the proposal in his Bill for the duties relating to all hate crimes to be wrapped up into a general duty will enable the current focus on individual groups to be retained?
Maria Miller
The hon. Lady has raised an important question. The first stage in the overall process involves our ensuring that we are aware of the magnitude of the problem, and it is therefore important that, since April, hate crimes have for the first time been recorded. As the hon. Lady suggests, we must ensure that we have access to a breakdown of the figures, and I will ensure that the appropriate people in the appropriate Ministry are aware of our feelings in that regard.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
As you know, Mr Speaker, I had hoped to ask a supplementary question about the impact on women of charges for learning English as a second language. I am disappointed that the Secretary of State, who has overall responsibility across Government for the women and equalities agenda, has decided that how that affects women is not an issue for her. I wonder whether she is considering only Home Office matters, but in any event this is a Home Office matter.
Mencap’s “Stand By Me” report makes a clear demand for specialist policing. It reveals straightforwardly that police authorities with specialist police resources deal with disability hate crime more effectively than other authorities. Given that the Home Secretary is cutting the police force by removing 10,000 officers, what action will the Minister take to ensure that every police area has a specialist resource that is trained and able to deal with the issue?
Maria Miller
As the hon. Lady will know, Cabinet Office guidance on parliamentary questions governs what questions are answered in this Question Time.
It is important for us to take account of individual areas in the country and the needs that may arise there. The position is different in each police authority area, and local police constables and chief police constables should be able to take account of that. However, the police alone do not provide the answer. Disabled people’s organisations have an important role to play in helping to ensure that disabled people feel that they have an opportunity to report crimes accurately, and I pay tribute to those organisations for the work that they are doing in that regard.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
4. What recent assessment she has made of trends in the number of disability hate crimes.
Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab)
5. What recent assessment she has made of trends in the number of disability hate crimes.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Miller)
Until recently there has been no formal collection of data on disability hate crime. We are committed to promoting better recording of it, and from April this year forces started collecting the relevant data. When the statistics are published next summer we will have a clearer picture of local patterns and trends, which will help the police target their resources in the most effective way.
Mr Hanson
The Minister will know that following the publication of the Mencap report on Monday, there are some positive suggestions about how we can encourage further reporting of hate crime. Will she agree to have a discussion with the Association of Chief Police Officers to consider what I know from experience are very difficult issues?
Maria Miller
I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will be relieved to know that we are already having such conversations with ACPO. It is very important that those discussions include disabled people and the organisations that represent them, because they have an important role to play.
Mr Sutcliffe
I welcome the Minister’s comments on reporting, but how can we give disability organisations and disabled people themselves the confidence to report crime? What work can take place on that?
Maria Miller
I reiterate the role that user-led organisations can have, such as the one in Blackpool, BSafe, that I visited with my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard). Such organisations can have a real effect by giving people the confidence to report. If they have the right systems in place—we are helping RADAR develop those systems—third-party reporting can be effective as well.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
As schools already report any incidents of hatred against disabled people, will the Minister work with the Department for Education to ensure that the trends reported in schools are carried over to Home Office figures? Will the two Departments work together so that if there is a problem of hatred against disabled people in schools, the Home Office is aware of it and will work with schools to address it?
Maria Miller
My hon. Friend raises a very important point, and I will ensure that it is taken up.
Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)
I was surprised to discover that the data have not been collected, so that trends cannot be found. I welcome the Government’s commitment to collecting those data. May I suggest, however, that the Government also consider the catalyst of the crime that is reported, particularly as a number of disabled people say that they have been spat at in the street or called scroungers because of some of the headlines that have been in the newspapers?
Maria Miller
After 13 years of the previous Administration, it is a shame that speedier action was not taken on that. I am glad that the coalition Government have taken action so quickly.
The hon. Lady is right to say that we are dealing with the symptoms, not the causes, of the problem. That is why we are putting a great deal of effort and energy into ensuring that there are positive images of disabled people. We have a consultation at the moment on how to involve more disabled people in political life. Having disabled people at the centre of decision making will help to change people’s attitudes.
Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)
6. What recent discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on steps to increase the rate of prosecution for rape.
The Minister for Equalities (Lynne Featherstone)
Rape prosecution is regularly discussed at ministerial level through the inter-ministerial group on violence against women. It is completely unacceptable that so many women and men are victims of this abhorrent crime. We have taken action to support rape victims and improve prosecutions by training specialist rape prosecutors in all areas, providing £1.72 million of funding a year for independent sexual violence advisers who support victims through the criminal justice system, and putting funding for rape support centres on a stable footing.
Dan Jarvis
Around 5,000 people each year are arrested on suspicion of rape and not charged. Some have gone on to commit further offences and been convicted as a result of being on the DNA database. The Prime Minister was not able to answer this question yesterday, so perhaps the Minister will today. Why does she think it is right to get rid of the DNA of those arrested for but not charged with rape?
Lynne Featherstone
Mainly because they are innocent. The Government start from the principle that someone who is arrested for, or charged with, a criminal offence but not subsequently convicted is innocent. Unlike the last Government, we will not hold the DNA of 1 million innocent people indefinitely. While they were busy filling the database with the DNA of innocent people, they absolutely failed to collect the DNA of the guilty, who were liable and had been convicted, and who might very well offend again.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
My hon. Friend has written that nine out of 10 rapes go unreported, and that 38% of serious sexual assault victims tell no one about their experience. Reported rape is just the tip of the iceberg. I know that we are putting £10.5 million into rape centres, but what can we do to encourage victims to walk through their doors in the first place?
Lynne Featherstone
I thank my hon. Friend for that question. She is quite right that reported rape is the tip of the iceberg. The funding—stable funding, unlike under the previous Government—to support rape centres right across the country is one thing we can do. We are also filling in the gaps: we will have centres in Hereford, Trafford, Devon and Dorset this year, and more work is being done to identify other areas so that coverage goes right across the country. The police have a job to do too, in the work that they do to send out a message loud—
Mr Speaker
Order. I am trying to help the House and to facilitate Back Benchers, but we must have short questions and short answers.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
I am sorry that the Home Secretary chose not to answer that question, because it was raised in Prime Minister’s questions and it is a serious issue. The answer from the Minister for Equalities to my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) was deeply unsatisfactory. She is keeping on the database the DNA of people who have been charged but not convicted. However, she is refusing to keep the DNA of those who are arrested but not charged. In those 5,000 cases, the police have decided that there is enough evidence to pass a case to the Crown Prosecution Service, but the CPS has decided not to charge.
We know that, for a series of reasons, rape is notoriously difficult to charge and convict, and we know that there is evidence among those 5,000 cases of people who have committed serious offences and who will go on to offend again. Under the Minister’s rules, the DNA of John Warboys would not have been kept. Will the Minister now think again and do something serious to increase rape prosecutions?
Lynne Featherstone
What the right hon. Lady has said is not accurate. When someone is arrested, there are circumstances under which the DNA can be retained. I shall run through those very briefly. DNA can be retained if the victim of the alleged offence is under 18; if the victim of the alleged offence is a vulnerable adult; if the victim of the alleged offence is in a close relationship with the subject; and, to answer her point precisely, if the police consider that retention is necessary to safeguard the public.
Business of the House
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
Will the Leader of the House give us the forthcoming business?
The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Young)
The business for next week will be:
Monday 27 June—A debate on House of Lords reform.
Tuesday 28 June—Remaining stages of the Finance (No.3) Bill (day one).
Wednesday 29 June—Second Reading of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill.
Thursday 30 June—A motion to bring in a resolution, on which a Bill is to be brought in, followed by a motion to approve a regulatory reform order relating to Epping Forest.
The provisional business for the week commencing 4 July will include:
Monday 4 July—Conclusion of remaining stages of the Finance (No.3) Bill (day two).
Tuesday 5 July—Opposition day (19th allotted day). There will be a debate on an Opposition motion. Subject to be announced.
Wednesday 6 July—Estimates day (3rd allotted day). There will be debates on the Prevent strategy, and on Afghanistan and Pakistan. Further details will be given in the Official Report.
[The details are as follows: The Prevent strategy: 6th Report from the Communities and Local Government Committee of Session 2009-10, HC 65, “Preventing Violent Extremism”.
Afghanistan and Pakistan: 4th Report from the Foreign Affairs Committee of Session 2010-12, HC 514, “The UK’s foreign policy approach to Afghanistan and Pakistan”; and the Government’s response, CM 8064.]
At 7 pm the House will be asked to agree all outstanding estimates.
Thursday 7 July—Proceedings on the Consolidated Fund Bill, followed by consideration of Lords amendments to the Fixed-Term Parliaments Bill.
I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for Thursday 30 June 2011 will be:
Thursday 30 June—A debate on co-operatives and mutuality in the economy.
Hilary Benn
I am grateful to the Leader of the House for that reply.
On tonight’s vote on stopping the use of wild animals in circuses, will the Leader of the House reassure us that the Government are not whipping their vote? Would it not be ironic if the whip were used to defeat the ban so that people can go on cracking a whip at circus animals?
It is learning disability week, and yesterday I met a group from Leeds who had come to tell MPs that they face discrimination every day. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that any idea that disabled people should be paid less than the minimum wage would be outrageous discrimination, and may we have a statement condemning it?
Following your comments on Tuesday, Mr Speaker, about the Government holding press conferences on major policy announcements before they come to the House to answer questions from MPs, will the Leader of the House now make time available for the Procedure Committee’s proposals on ministerial statements to be debated? The Committee’s idea that Ministers would be forced to make a formal apology on the Floor of the House for breaching the rules might concentrate the Government’s mind.
Last week I asked the Leader of the House about reconsidering the strategic defence review. Yesterday the Prime Minister came to the House and let slip that he is doing so already, although he had not previously told anyone, least of all the House of Commons. In the Prime Minister’s own words:
“We have had a review of the national security and defence review over the past year”—[Official Report, 22 June 2011; Vol. 530, c. 315.]
When can we expect a statement on the outcome of the review?
This week the climate change Secretary attacked right-wing ideologues and deregulation zealots for putting environmental regulations, including those in climate change and national parks legislation, on a list of so-called red tape that might be scrapped. We wish the Secretary of State well in his fight to save the regulations, but has the Leader of the House had any indication that the Cabinet Secretary’s right-wing, zealous Cabinet colleagues—presumably they were who he was talking about—have asked to make a statement by way of right of reply to this grave charge? If not, may we at least be given a list of their names so that we can keep score?
On the subject of zealots, may we have a statement from the Prime Minister on how he has got on since PMQs yesterday in his desperate attempts to prevent Tory MEPs from voting against a 30% reduction in emissions—which is, after all, a coalition policy—in the European Parliament today? This is a real test of his authority, and if he fails it his claim to be leading the greenest Government ever will be in tatters.
May I offer the Leader of the House an apology? I fear that my comments on weekly bin collections may have inadvertently contributed to a widening of the rift between the Environment Secretary and the Communities Secretary over whose turn it is to take the rubbish out. The Daily Telegraph today reported:
“Cabinet pair ‘at daggers drawn’ after bitter bin collection feud.”
It seems that the right hon. Lady hung up on the right hon. Gentleman, and the pair are thought not to have spoken since. A colleague said:
“The whole thing is fairly unpleasant. . .”
So may we have a statement on why this fragile coalition inside the Conservative party now seems to be falling apart?
After all the policy changes, pauses, rethinks, repudiations, and U-turns in the past few weeks—by the way, I congratulate the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website on its honesty for yesterday announcing changes to the BBC World Service with the headline
“Massive U-turn on BBC World Service funding”—
did the Leader of the House see the conclusion drawn by one unhappy Conservative MP who this week said:
“It’s not worth going out on a limb for something if it may be abandoned when the tabloids or the Lib Dems kick up”?
Pity the loyal Back Benchers: they are keen to help, eager to please and want to back their Government, but they now have absolutely no idea, with all this prime ministerial hokey cokey, whether policies that are in this week might be policies that are out next week, or at the very least shaken all about. May we therefore have a statement reassuring them that if they do take the plunge and voice support for the Government, they will not be left high and dry as so many of the Prime Minister’s Cabinet colleagues have found themselves in recent weeks? Finally, does this collective loss of nerve by the Government not show just how right was the Treasury mandarin who last week complained:
“They just don’t seem to have thought any of this stuff through”?
Sir Humphrey could not have put it better himself.
Sir George Young
We hear that the shadow Leader of the House’s bid to lead his party goes from strength to strength. I can report that following my comments last week, even The Independent has been tempted into a flutter:
“I’d put £50 on Hilary Benn. He’s not an automatic embarrassment. His performance as shadow Leader is widely admired. And there’s the hereditary principle working in his favour.”
With friends like those, what is holding—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I want to hear the views of the Leader of the House on the hereditary principle.
Sir George Young
As the sixth baronet, I am in favour of the hereditary principle.
Let me turn to the shadow Leader of the House’s questions. I note in passing that he asked very few questions about next week’s business. None the less, on the motion dealing with circus animals, we are tackling a problem that he singularly failed to tackle during his time in government.
Sir George Young
The Government are perfectly entitled to defend their position in the House and in a Division.
As for shadow Leader of the House’s question about disabled people and the minimum wage, the suggestion made was outrageous. It is not Government policy, and I agree with what he said about it.
We would welcome a debate on ministerial statements. It is for the Backbench Business Committee to find time to debate the proposals of the Procedure Committee. This Government have made roughly one third more ministerial statements a day than the outgoing Administration, and we are more than anxious to keep the House fully informed. There will not be another SDSR, as the Prime Minister made clear, and there is not a review of it.
As for the right hon. Gentleman’s comments about zealots, which I believe were reported in the press, the comments and criticisms within the coalition Government are, from time to time, made by members of two different parties, whereas in the previous Government much more offensive comments were made about Ministers in the same party, so I am not sure that he should raise the issue on the Floor on the House.
So far as MEPs are concerned, the coalition’s policy is wholly unaffected by what happens in the European Parliament. The coalition Government’s commitment to reducing CO2 emissions and climate change remains unaffected.
As for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman welcomes the additional £2.2 million for the Arabic service, for which there was support among Members on both sides of the House. In the context of a budget for the World Service of some £250 million, it is difficult to describe that as a mammoth U-turn. It is a sensible and welcome change in response to pressure from the House.
So far as rethinking Government policies is concerned, I wonder how long it will be before the right hon. Gentleman’s party reconsiders the shadow Chancellor’s view on a reduction in VAT, which it seems was introduced without any consultation with his colleagues.
Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)
Would my right hon. Friend consider it appropriate to hold a debate in Government time on the future of the Commonwealth? We are approaching an important Heads of Government conference in the autumn and, more imminently, the centennial conference of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association here in London.
Sir George Young
I welcome my right hon. Friend’s work as chairman of the CPA in organising an important conference at the end of next month. I am glad that a number of my ministerial colleagues will speak at the conference, which I hope will be a great success. I would be misleading him, however, if I said that I could find time between now and the summer recess for a debate on the Commonwealth, but I hope that there might be an opportunity to raise the issue in Foreign and Commonwealth Office questions or perhaps to seek a debate in Westminster Hall.
Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)
I am sorry to go on about this, but the Leader of the House gives me absolutely no option. The Government are not sticking to their promise of allocating one day a week as Back-Bench time. At the moment, we are running at about one day a month, and I am sure that the problem cannot possibly be the subjects that we are choosing to debate on the Floor of the House, so will he please again consider allocating one set, regular, non-Thursday slot as Back-Bench time?
Sir George Young
Let me reassure the hon. Lady, whose work as Chair of the Backbench Business Committee I admire, that we will stick to our promise that there will be 35 days in the Session, plus injury time because this Session is longer. We cannot offer one day every week, and a large number of days at the beginning of the Session were devoted to general debates. We might be able to catch up towards the end of the Session, but at the moment I am under enormous pressure to provide adequate time to debate Government measures, and she has a whole day today to debate Back-Bench business. I reassure her that we will honour the agreement of 35 days per Session, plus injury time because this Session is longer than normal.
Mr Speaker
Order. A further 38 right hon. and hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye. As always, I should like to accommodate them, but I remind the House that two debates are taking place today under the auspices of the Backbench Business Committee, both of which are well subscribed. Brevity from Back Benchers and Front Benchers alike is therefore of the essence.
Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend share my disappointment that he was unable to announce today a debate on the armed forces? Is he aware that the Backbench Business Committee—through no fault of its Chair, I have to say—has refused my request for a debate on the armed forces, although we have not had one since September last year, in favour of a request to debate eight or 28 circus animals? That is an important subject that would be appropriate for a debate in Westminster Hall, but I understand that that already happened a couple of weeks ago.
Sir George Young
I understand where my right hon. Friend, who is Chair of the Defence Select Committee, is coming from, but under the Wright Committee proposals the four days per Session that were allocated for defence have been put into the pot, which is now owned by the Backbench Business Committee. It is therefore up to the Backbench Business Committee to decide how to allocate those days, and I think that his comments were addressed as much to the Committee as they were to me.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
On parliamentary accountability, or the lack of it, why did the Secretary of State for Defence table a written statement today on the cost of the military operation in Libya, rather than making an oral statement at the Dispatch Box? Is it not unfortunate that we get our information either from the media or from written statements, and that the Minister responsible does not come here to explain and justify his actions and to answer questions accordingly?
Sir George Young
The hon. Gentleman says that the Government have not made a statement, but he is holding in his hand the Government’s statement. As I said a few moments ago, the record of this Government on making statements is better than the record of the Government whom he supported.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
Following the schools Minister’s welcome announcement this morning that grammar schools such as those in my constituency will be allowed to expand, may we have a debate on grammar schools and their positive impact on social mobility?
Sir George Young
Again, my hon. Friend’s request might have been heard by the Backbench Business Committee. The policy of the coalition Government is that, where grammar schools exist, they should be allowed to expand. We are not, however, in favour of starting them in areas that do not have them. I personally would welcome such a debate, and I hope that that can be arranged through the Backbench Business Committee or possibly on the Adjournment.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
The Leader of the House will know that the base interest rate is 0.5%. Is he aware that my constituents and others up and down the land are paying 19.1% interest on their credit cards? The failure of the credit card industry to lower its rates in line with the base rate has ripped off our constituents by £500 million. When may we have a debate on the way in which interest rates are ripping off consumers and small businesses?
Sir George Young
I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concern at the gap between the base rate and the rate charged by credit card companies and other lending organisations. There will be an opportunity to raise this matter of consumer protection in questions to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, as well as in Treasury questions. Alternatively, the hon. Gentleman could apply for a debate on the Adjournment.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
May we have a statement next week from the Leader of the House on why the Government are rowing back on their commitment to provide a day a week for Back-Bench business? It is no good for him to suggest that Members refer their requests to the Backbench Business Committee if the Government are not giving us any days. May I suggest that it is his job to resist pressure from the Executive for debates?
Sir George Young
I am under enormous pressure from both sides of the House to provide adequate time to debate Government legislation. We have accommodated two days for the Report stages of a number of Bills because we think it important that the House has adequate time for such debates. If my hon. Friend looks at the Standing Orders, he will see that the commitment was to 35 days per Session, not to one day a week. As I said to the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), we will abide by our commitment. I must also point out that there would be no Backbench Business Committee at all, were it not for the coalition Government introducing one.
Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)
There is a Focus store in Consett in my constituency, as I am sure there are in many others. I have been contacted by Kingfisher, the parent company, which wants to take over the store and all its staff, but it has been advised that it will not get a decision from the Office of Fair Trading until September. That will be too late for my constituents, who will be made redundant by the Focus receiver on 18 July. The redundancy payments and welfare benefits represent a massive cost that does not need to be incurred. May we have a statement on what action the Government will take to speed up the OFT’s decision?
Sir George Young
Of course I understand the concern that the hon. Lady expresses on behalf of her constituents, and I will contact the OFT today to remind it of her concern and ask it for an urgent response.
Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)
Local communities in my constituency have been left devastated after the Planning Inspectorate imposed Traveller sites on various communities, based on the outdated planning policies of the previous Government. A Government consultation is taking place on the planning circulars. May we have a debate, so that Members can influence that consultation?
Sir George Young
I understand my hon. Friend’s concern. It sounds as though that decision was reached under the existing rules on Traveller sites. Our view is that the rules are not fit for purpose, so we are consulting on an alternative set of proposals. The consultation closes on 6 July, and I am sure that my hon. Friend will respond to it. I cannot promise her a debate on the subject she raises, but the Localism Bill is now in another place, where there might be an opportunity to debate proposals on Traveller sites.
Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
Is the Leader of the House aware that hundreds of Derbyshire constituents are up in arms at the prospect of there not being an oral statement about the railway contract that went to Siemens in Germany, rather than to Bombardier in Derby? Why are this Government not acting like the Government in Germany, where about 90% of the contracts stay in Germany? About 100% of such contracts stay in France. And do not tell me it is because of what the last Government did; this Government are supposed to be doing something else. I never voted for the free movement of capital and labour, unlike the Leader of the House and thousands of others. Stop rolling over to the EU!
Sir George Young
I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman was in Transport questions a few moments ago when that subject was raised.
Sir George Young
If he was listening, he would have heard that the terms of the tender were set by the Government who, from time to time, he supported. His point about Ministers not being able to defend the proposition is wholly untrue; we defended it a few moments ago.
Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)
The Local Government Boundary Commission’s review of Daventry district has united all political parties locally and a huge number of the parishes against the proposals. Few if any of the views expressed in the consultation period have been taken into account, and I am being asked to pray against the measure when it is placed before the House after the summer. Will the Leader of the House advise me on the parliamentary routes available to me to get the Local Government Boundary Commission to listen to the views of my constituents?
Sir George Young
The short answer is no, but I will write to my hon. Friend outlining the procedures available to him to pursue this important matter.
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)
May we have an urgent statement on the newly leaked plans to close seven of the eight HMRC offices in Wales, leading to a possible 1,000 redundancies and affecting the quality not only of the service in Wales generally but in particular of the service through the medium of Welsh provided in Porthmadog?
Sir George Young
Of course I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concern, which I will convey to the appropriate Minister and ask him to write to the hon. Gentleman as soon as he can.
Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend arrange for a debate on the apprenticeships programme, in the light of today’s excellent news about apprenticeship numbers? We should all be delighted that there are 114,000 more apprenticeships in the year, which will provide real opportunities for our young people.
Sir George Young
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question, and I commend to the House the written ministerial statement from the Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning. There will be some 25,000 more apprenticeship places as a result of the steps we have taken, and we see that as an important part of the road to recovery and dealing with the high youth unemployment that we inherited.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
Ahead of the visit by the Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao, may we have a debate on human rights in China? We welcome the release yesterday on conditional bail of Ai Weiwei, but the Nobel peace prize winner Liu Xiaobo is still banged up in the Chinese communist gulag. When the Prime Minister meets his opposite number here in London, will he say in public that Liu Xiaobo should be freed? He did not do so in China, which I think was contemptible, but now that the Chinese Premier is coming to English democratic territory, will he tell him to his face to release Liu Xiaobo?
Sir George Young
I welcome the release to which the right hon. Gentleman refers. I give him the assurance that my right hon. Friends will raise with the Chinese delegation the important issue of human rights, and I am sure that they will do so diplomatically and effectively.
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
On a recent visit to an RAF station, it was highlighted to me that junior rank servicemen living in single room accommodation in blocks of more than 40 still have to pay the full television licence, even when serving abroad. With Armed Forces day approaching, could we have a statement from the relevant Minister to see whether we could review that situation?
Sir George Young
I understand my hon. Friend’s concern. There will be an opportunity to question Defence Ministers on 4 July, when he might have an opportunity to raise the matter during topical questions.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
I am also in favour of the hereditary principle because, just like the right hon. Gentleman, I come from a very long line of parents. I know he reads the Daily Mirror. Has he seen today’s report that Cardiff has been listed in National Geographic magazine as one of the top 10 alternative places to visit this summer? May we have a debate on tourism and the importance of promoting and publicising our wonderful cities like Cardiff?
Sir George Young
I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman risks setting up a bidding war between every Member who believes that his or her constituency is the best one to visit for holidays, but he has achieved his objective by putting his views on the record.
Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)
May I urge the Leader of the House to support having a debate on the rare cancer of neuroblastoma? My constituent, Mr Samual Daubany-Nunn, suffers from this rare cancer and has to go to Germany to get treatment. Some primary care trusts fund going to Germany for treatment, but the one in my constituency does not do so at the moment. I really think that people should be treated fairly throughout the country.
Sir George Young
I share my hon. Friend’s concern. He will know that we have put extra resources into cancer treatment over the past year, but I will draw his remarks to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health.
Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)
I draw the attention of the Leader of the House to early-day motion 1956:
[That this House recognises the sacrifice of the UK's atomic test veterans; notes that many test veterans are now ill; further notes that many countries have paid compensation to ex-service personnel who were exposed to atomic tests; believes that atomic test veterans fulfilled their military duties in good faith; and urges the Government to make an ex-gratia payment to the UK's atomic test veterans.]
It calls for compensation payments to atomic test veterans. This issue has gone on for an extremely long time. At one time or another, we all praise the hard work of our armed forces; now is the time to turn those words into deeds. After all, there are not many of these veterans left and they are probably now outnumbered by lawyers.
Sir George Young
As the hon. Gentleman was good enough to concede, this problem has been going on for some time. There will be an opportunity to raise it with Defence Ministers on 4 July. In the meantime, I will remind my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence of the concern that this matter remains outstanding and urge him to do all he can to bring it to a satisfactory conclusion.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) and, this morning, the Deputy Prime Minister are calling for shares in Northern Rock and Lloyds, which we substantially own, to be distributed to the British people. Given the interest in this proposal, may we please debate it on the Floor of the House?
Sir George Young
Indeed, that is one of a number of options. I think the reference was to Lloyds and HBOS, as I think a Treasury statement about Northern Rock was made last week. It is important to have an open debate about the options available to the Government when the time is right for transferring these banks to the private sector. I cannot promise an immediate debate, but I am sure there will be opportunities, perhaps in the remaining stages of the Finance Bill, to deal with it.
Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)
Is the Leader of the House aware that Syrians living in London are being threatened and intimidated by agents of the Assad regime? Does he know that these people have been photographed and the photographs shown to their families in Syria? The Syrian ambassador is about the Houses of Parliament this morning. Has he been called in and told that that is totally unacceptable behaviour in this country, which believes in freedom of expression and freedom of speech?
Sir George Young
I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for raising this matter. We are indeed aware of the reports and we are discussing them with the Metropolitan police. Any evidence of offences committed by embassy staff—or, indeed, anybody else—against demonstrators should be reported to the police. Anybody who has any such information should do the same. We will, of course, take up with the police any information they receive regarding alleged offences by the Syrian or any other embassy, and we will take the appropriate action.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
What has been the role of the Leader of the House in framing the new construct for the release of Government information—namely, a written ministerial statement, a press conference and then an oral statement to this House? Given your very clear pronouncement on this issue, Mr Speaker, will my right hon. Friend assure us that this will not happen again?
Sir George Young
On the specific issue that my hon. Friend mentions, we were following a precedent established by the previous Government. In December 2009, for example, Labour published its “smarter government” strategy via a written ministerial statement; it was then followed by a detailed speech by the then Prime Minister and an oral statement took place later in the afternoon. I have, of course, heard what you, Mr Speaker, said on both 14 and 21 June. I recognise that there is a balance to be struck between observing the proprieties of the House and informing the public. I will draw the attention of my ministerial colleagues to both those rulings and to my hon. Friend’s point.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
May we have a statement on compliance with UN resolution 1973? We found out this week that the war in Libya is costing £0.25 billion and that this country’s military leadership believe that our armed forces are overstretched in engaging in that endeavour. May we now have a debate to find out why British troops are not enforcing the ceasefire on both sides, but acting as the military wing for the rebels in a civil war?
Sir George Young
The Government have done all they can to keep the House in the picture on Libya—and, indeed, on Afghanistan and other issues. There will be an opportunity on 4 July to raise these issues again with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
The Leader of the House may be aware of the possibilities for an early debate—I hope so, anyway—to discuss the guidance issued under the Reservoirs Act 1975 by the Institution of Civil Engineers, as approved by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Environment Agency. At no stage has the House considered this guidance, which caused the failure of a flood defence in Pickering. May we have an early opportunity to discuss and, possibly, amend these guidance notes?
Sir George Young
I will raise those issues with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. I cannot promise a debate. I was concerned to learn about the incident to which my hon. Friend referred. She might like to apply for a debate in Westminster Hall or on the Adjournment in the meantime.
Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Leader of the House find time for a debate on the situation in Sudan? In recent weeks, tens of thousands of Nuba people have been displaced from their homes, and we have seen the resumption of aerial bombardment by Khartoum. In two weeks’ time, South Sudan takes its place in the league of nations, but the situation is very fragile. May we have an opportunity to debate it in the House?
Sir George Young
I am aware of problems in Sudan, following the referendum and the decision to split the country. There will be an opportunity to raise this during Foreign Office questions in the middle of next month, but in the meantime I will share the hon. Gentleman’s concern with my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and ask him to write to him.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
May we have a debate on procedure? Politics is about choices. We have a slightly bizarre situation whereby it is possible and in order to draw attention to Opposition policies in debate, but not in questions. Surely the Opposition’s approach to debt and the deficit and their proposals for unfunded VAT cuts must be a matter of parliamentary interest and a matter of concern to the country.
Sir George Young
That may be a question that you, Mr Speaker, feel better placed to answer than me. As my hon. Friend will know, we had an opportunity yesterday to test the Opposition on their VAT policies and, indeed, found them wanting. I am sure that you, Mr Speaker, will have heard what my hon. Friend has said about the propriety of questions on Opposition policies.
Mr Speaker
Yes. Questions are to the Government about the policies and proposals of the Government. ’Twas ever thus and ’tis still so.
Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)
May we have an urgent debate on how to secure the future of the British train manufacturing industry, following the decision to appoint Siemens as the preferred bidder for the Thameslink contract, which will potentially cost 3,000 jobs at Bombardier based in Derby and a further 12,000 jobs in the supply chain? This could spell the end of the British train manufacturing industry because, come this autumn, Bombardier’s order books are empty.
Sir George Young
Of course I understand the concern felt in Derby about what has happened, but there has just been an opportunity to ask Ministers about this issue at Transport Questions, and questions were asked, and answers were given.
Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con)
As this is a time when both central and local government are short of money, I ask that a Minister come to the House to explain, perhaps by making a statement, how we are supporting local government and the police in pursuing litter louts. That may seem a trivial issue, but my local authority is spending £6 million a year picking up rubbish, and that money could be spent on educating kids or looking after the elderly.
Sir George Young
I understand my hon. Friend’s concern. I cannot promise a debate on this important issue, but perhaps he would like to put in for an Adjournment debate so that he can expand his ideas at greater length.
Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)
May I again press the Leader of the House for a debate in Government time on energy prices? He kindly suggested that I should make a request to the Energy and Climate Change Committee, yet I am, in fact, a member, and we have dealt with the issue on many occasions. Ofgem has made its proposals clear, yet prices are still rising. This issue affects every constituency, and such a debate would provide an opportunity for all Members to discuss it, and to stop our constituents getting ripped off.
Sir George Young
I note the hon. Gentleman’s concern. Energy prices have risen by about 50% over the past 12 months. We have taken a number of initiatives: the cold weather payments are being maintained at their higher level, and we also have winter fuel payments, Warm Front and the green deal. We are doing all we can to reduce energy costs, particularly for poorer-income households, at a time of rising prices.
Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)
Further to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Mr Evennett), I welcome the announcement of 114,000 new apprenticeships and pay tribute to the Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning for his sterling work on that. However, may we have a debate or a statement on why so many publicly funded organisations—such as the Charity Commission and the Met Office—currently offer no apprenticeships whatever?
Sir George Young
I would be very grateful to my hon. Friend if he would let me have a list of the public bodies he thinks are not pulling their weight in offering apprenticeships, and we will, of course, then pursue the matter through the appropriate Minister.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
May we have a debate in Government time on what more the Government can do about the increase in fuel prices—they have gone up by 10% in the last year, compared with an average rise in retail prices of 5%—especially since the fuel duty stabiliser does not seem to have cut prices at the pumps?
Sir George Young
As a consequence of the fuel duty stabiliser, the price of petrol at the pumps is 6p a litre less than it would otherwise have been. We have the warm home discount, which amounts to £250 million a year, and the Warm Front scheme helping 47,000 families. We are also giving Post Office account holders a discount, and as a result of the £1.9 billion fuel duty package the typical Ford Focus driver will be £56 better off. We have, therefore, taken steps to try to insulate people against the higher fuel prices.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
The National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers—the RMT—is threatening, on a minority vote of its membership, to make travelling in London a misery over the next few weeks. May we have a debate in Government time on requiring unions to secure a majority vote of their membership before they can take industrial action?
Sir George Young
I very much hope that the RMT will not go ahead with the industrial dispute, which will cause widespread disruption in London. I am aware of my hon. Friend’s views on changing the law—and, indeed, those of the Mayor of London. We have said that we plan to keep the industrial relations legislation under review, but as of now we have no plans to change it.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
I thank the Leader of the House for persuading his colleagues at the Department for Communities and Local Government to see sense over the ridiculous plan to impose a shadow executive mayor on Birmingham. May we now have a debate on the equally ridiculous plan to make the people of Birmingham pay for the Government’s referendum at a time when their budgets are being cut to the bone?
Sir George Young
The hon. Gentleman is referring to the Localism Bill, which is now in another place, and to a number of Government amendments to it. If he has colleagues in the other place who share his concerns in respect of Birmingham, there will be an opportunity to press the Government further on the second issue that he raised.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
On 12 October last year, I had the privilege of a visit from the public health Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Anne Milton), to Porton Down in my constituency, when she said she hoped a decision about the future location of that facility would be made by the end of the year. I raised this matter in the House on 11 March, yet we are still no clearer. Does the Leader of the House agree that the time has now come for the Government to make a statement and thereby address the uncertainty felt by the large number of my constituents who work at Porton Down?
Sir George Young
As I am my hon. Friend’s constituency neighbour and constituents of mine also work at Porton Down, I understand the concern felt locally about this matter. I will raise my hon. Friend’s concerns with the relevant health Minister in order to try to discover the timetable for this decision.
Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)
The Leader of the House will be aware that his colleague the Secretary of State for Wales has failed in the last 13 months in that job to say a single word from the Dispatch Box about Wales, save at Wales Questions. Will he prevail upon her to try to raise her subterranean profile in this House, and secure a debate in Government time on matters of importance to the people of Wales?
Sir George Young
I have the good fortune to sit next to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales at Wales Questions, and I would have thought that 15 or 30 minutes would be sufficient time to deal with all the questions likely to be raised by Opposition Members. So far as the call for a debate is concerned, the hon. Gentleman will know that following the recommendations of the Wright Committee a decision on a debate on Wales—or London or any other part of the country—is now a matter for the Backbench Business Committee.
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
May we have a debate on the causes of child poverty? Members on both sides of the House are concerned that it costs 50p for every pound that the Child Support Agency is able to get to children, and that the arrears are £3.8 billion. We could also talk about the provision in the Welfare Reform Bill that gives parents much greater incentive to work and therefore lift their households out of poverty, including their children.
Sir George Young
My hon. Friend is right: children growing up in households where a generation or more has not worked is a real issue. I think I am right in saying that the Work programme is the UK’s single biggest employment support programme. I hope it will help to end the cycle of worklessness that has blighted many families, and all out-of-work benefit customers will be able to access the programme at a time that is right for them.
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
The Prime Minister is currently in Brussels attending the European Council meeting trying to prevent a crisis across Europe which would make Lehman Brothers look like a small event. The House again did not have a debate ahead of the European Council, however. I know that the Leader of the House thinks that this is Back-Bench business. If that is so, may we have a debate on what he thinks is Front-Bench business?
Sir George Young
In a nutshell, Front-Bench business is the Government’s programme of legislation. There was a statement about Greece on Monday, and I know my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will want to keep the House in the picture on what happens at the European Council. The question of the House having a debate before European Council meetings is, as the hon. Lady knows, a matter for the Backbench Business Committee.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
This morning, the Secretary of State for Transport announced that he was looking into the impact of the European Union procurement regulations and how France and Germany manage to procure their trains from their own domestic manufacturers, yet we seem to be unable to do so. Given the great interest that there will be in such a review, may we have a statement or a debate so that the Secretary of State can hear the full views of the House on this controversial issue?
Sir George Young
I understand the concern that is felt on both sides of the House about the procurement process for rolling stock and engines. I wonder whether the best way to proceed might be to have a debate on the final day before the recess, if the Backbench Business Committee decides to have a series of Adjournment debates, or for a Member to apply for an Adjournment debate in the Chamber or Westminster Hall.
Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) (Lab)
My constituent Joe Arthur was attacked, and subsequently died, while on holiday in Corfu in 2006. Five years on, the three individuals connected to his death are still awaiting trial in Greece. Mr Arthur’s family have received exceptional support from Northumbria police, but they want justice. Will the Leader of the House arrange for me to meet a Foreign Office Minister to discuss the case and see what further assistance can be offered to the family?
Sir George Young
I am very sorry to learn of the death of the hon. Lady’s constituent. Of course I will contact a ministerial colleague at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to arrange a meeting for the hon. Lady.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
May I, too, highlight the importance of human rights and human dignity, by drawing to the attention of the House the fate of the Baha’i religious community in Iran? May we have a debate to underline the importance of concerted action to promote human rights, as the Helsinki accords of 1975 did for people in eastern Europe in the following decades?
Sir George Young
Persecution of any individual on the grounds of their religious faith is unacceptable. I am aware of the problems faced by the Baha’i community in Iran. The FCO makes regular representations on this matter here, and we also make representations to the Iranian Government so that this persecution can be brought to an end.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
In south Wales over the past three years the theft of metal from train lines has cost £3 million. Last year alone, there were 84 instances of cable theft in our area, leading to train journey delays. May we have a debate on this issue, which is making the lives of train commuters miserable?
Sir George Young
I will draw the hon. Gentleman’s comments to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport, who will no doubt want to contact the British Transport police to see whether more effective action can be taken to deter these sorts of thefts and bring the criminals to justice.
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
Further to the questions of my hon. Friends the Members for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Mr Evennett) and for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) does the Leader of the House agree that a debate on apprenticeships would be a suitable birthday present for the Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning, whose birthday it is today, given the massive increase in apprenticeships that was announced this morning?
Sir George Young
By a miracle, my hon. Friend the Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning is now in his place and will have heard those wishes for a happy birthday, which I am sure are shared by hon. Members on both sides. I pay tribute to him for what he has been doing. It is a substantial achievement to have delivered 326,700 apprenticeships in the first nine months of this academic year and 114,000 in the previous year—more than double what we set out to do. That is the right way to provide a sound platform for long-term economic prosperity.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
May we have a debate on the Floor of the House about why the Government have decided to stop publishing time to pay statistics in July and whether this is the beginning of the end of time to pay?
Sir George Young
I will make suitable inquiries and write to the hon. Gentleman about time to pay.
Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)
Notwithstanding yesterday’s Opposition day debate, may we have a specific debate on tax so that we can, among other things, consider the shadow Chancellor’s proposal for a £12 billion unfunded tax cut, on which all Members, but perhaps members of the shadow Cabinet in particular, might appreciate the chance to have an opinion?
Sir George Young
We all enjoyed yesterday’s debate in which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor trounced the shadow Chancellor on his economic strategy. The Opposition have left their tax cut open-ended and unfunded. They have not given any definition of what constitutes “growing strongly again” and would simply be adding £51 billion to the deficit at the end of this Parliament.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
May we have a statement on the accountability of the Government on women and equalities? Today, an oral question on the impact on women of the increases in fees for courses in English as a second language was transferred to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. The Department has form on this: on 3 March, I raised in questions to the Leader of the House the fact that questions on women and pensions had been transferred. How can we hold the Government to account given that we have only quarter of an hour for questions and no topical questions and given that questions specifically about the impact of Government policies on women are ducked by the Ministers responsible for women’s policies?
Sir George Young
I say to the hon. Lady that we have adopted precisely the same arrangements for questions about women as we inherited from the outgoing Government.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
I have been delighted by the response to my ten-minute rule Bill to ban smoking in cars when children are present, but I am aware that despite support from across the House and the country, the chances of the Bill getting a further detailed hearing are very slim. Will the Leader of the House therefore provide time for a full debate on the Floor of the House so that the topic can be aired in much greater detail?
Sir George Young
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on having got a Second Reading for his Bill yesterday but I would be misleading him if I said that there was any time within the Government’s programme to adopt it. However, there will be an opportunity in the next Session for him to apply for a private Member’s Bill slot.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
May we have a debate on the solving of conundrums? Or perhaps the Leader of the House could solve one for me. The latest figures show that, at the moment, for every job available in the Rhondda there are 84 people seeking that job, whereas in his constituency of North West Hampshire there are only two people seeking each available job. So far as I can understand the Department for Work and Pensions’ view on all this, the way to resolve the situation is for everybody from my constituency to move to his constituency. The vast majority of my constituents own their own home, but their homes are not worth the kind of money they would need to buy a home in his constituency, so what are my constituents to do to try to get into work?
Sir George Young
The hon. Gentleman’s constituents would always be very welcome in North West Hampshire, but I understand the issue he raises. I think that the answer to his question is the Work programme, which is the biggest and most ambitious work programme ever to get people back into work. In addition, the Government are taking steps to build long-term, sustainable recovery, which I am sure will reach south Wales as fast it reaches anywhere else.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
May we have a Government statement on the Government’s plans to mark the 100th anniversary in 2014 of the beginning of the first world war? I visited Belgium a few weeks ago, as a member of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, and the other commissioners and I were briefed on the extensive work going on there. That contrasts with the confusion in the UK, where it appears that a decision is yet to be taken on whether the Ministry of Defence or the Department for Culture, Media and Sport will take the lead on that anniversary.
Sir George Young
I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern that we should commemorate this anniversary properly. As a former Minister in the MOD, he will have a good background to this matter. I will raise it with MOD Ministers to make sure that we take appropriate action to commemorate this important anniversary.
Points of Order
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I notice that the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) is the lead Member on one of the motions we are debating later, but yesterday a pager message was sent out to Conservative MPs cancelling all leave and requiring them to come and vote against the Back-Bench motion this afternoon. Is there any way that the hon. Gentleman, who is a Conservative Member of Parliament, can be forced by the Conservative Whips to withdraw or vote against his own motion, and what would happen in those circumstances?
Mr Speaker
First of all, I do not entertain hypothetical questions. Secondly, that is not a point of order and, thirdly, I say—with an audible sigh of relief—that I am not responsible for the conduct of the Whips.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You will have heard my question to the Leader of the House about the accountability of the Government on women and equalities matters. He said that the arrangements had not changed at all, but I dispute that. I do not believe that the previous Government ever transferred oral questions on women and equalities to other Government Departments—and certainly not with the frequency that this Government are doing so. Is there something that you can do to protect the rights of Back Benchers to hold the Government to account on issues of women and equalities? At present, we do not have a Select Committee, we have only 15 minutes for questions, there are no topical questions and Ministers are not answering questions if they do not like them.
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her point of order and for advance notice of her intention to raise it. She has put her views very firmly and explicitly on the record. There is very little I can do about this matter, but let me say to her that I have considerable sympathy with Members who seek to ask oral questions on what might be described as cross-cutting subjects. As she and the House are aware, transfers are a matter for the Government, but I am sure that her point of order will have been noted. When a Member tables an orderly question to a Department in respect of that Department’s responsibilities, it is unfortunate if it is transferred and we need to keep an eye on the matter. The hon. Lady should seek the advice of the Table Office before the next oral questions to the Minister for Women and Equalities.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Further to the point that was raised in questions to the Leader of the House by the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone), there is still the remaining issue of how to deal with the fact that the Government are regularly briefing the press before briefing the House of Commons. [Interruption.] Many of us also deprecated it when it was done by the Labour Government. I realise that it is very difficult for you to exercise any direct powers in relation to the Government, but this is a question not only of supply but of demand. Might I suggest that any journalist whom you find has written an article saying, “Tomorrow, the Government will announce that…” should have their pass withdrawn so that they cannot work in the House any longer?
Mr Speaker
Let me say to the hon. Gentleman, who is a very experienced Member of the House, that it is extremely naughty of him to tempt me in that way. I think he should be careful about such an approach. The wider point he raises has been raised a number of times in the past couple of weeks. I have made my views about it extremely clear in the House and in the conversations that inevitably take place about these matters. I think it is extremely important that the responsibility of Government to explain and answer first to Parliament is accepted and that effect is given to it. It would be very unfortunate if a regular pattern of the kind that the hon. Gentleman has been complaining about were to develop. If, in extremis, this were to continue to happen, and as a consequence the Government’s own business were to be damaged or lost as a result of what might be described as retaliatory action, that would of course be very unfortunate.
Backbench Business
Transport Committee Report (Coastguard)
Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)
I beg to move,
That this House notes the publication of the Sixth Report from the Transport Select Committee on The Coastguard, Emergency Towing Vessels and the Maritime Incident Response Group, HC 948.
I am delighted to present the Transport Committee’s report on the Floor of the House, and I thank the Backbench Business Committee for giving me this opportunity. It is an encouraging development for the House and I hope that it will continue to be utilised for other key Select Committee reports.
This report warrants being presented here today because there has been so much interest across the House and from many members of the public about the future of the coastguard service. It is fair to say that the overwhelming view of Members, from all parties and regardless of whether their constituency happens to include a coastguard centre, has been deep concern about the proposals.
The report looks at the three areas addressed by the Government: first, the plans for the drastic closure of coastguard co-ordination centres; secondly, the withdrawal of the Government’s funding for emergency towing vehicles; and, thirdly, the removal of Government funding for the specialist firefighting service at sea. We received a great deal of written evidence from serving and volunteer coastguards, all of which was critical of the Government’s proposals, and most of which was highly critical. Unfortunately, most coastguards were prohibited by the Government from giving oral evidence to the Committee; we criticise that decision in our report. However, we were able to visit the coastguard centres at Falmouth, Clyde and Stornoway, and I am sure that my colleagues on the Committee agree that those visits proved invaluable in learning about the operation of the centres at first hand and enabling us to speak to serving and volunteer coastguards about their concerns, although those were informal discussions rather than official evidence.
Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)
I congratulate the Committee and my hon. Friend as its Chair on an excellent report. I think the Government will take notice of it, because they said they would wait for the report and act on its conclusions. Does my hon. Friend agree that had coastguards across the United Kingdom had an opportunity for input into the future of the service, MPs’ debates would have had a different tone? More important, are not the proposals a way forward for the Government, not a way out, and must they not include input from all coastguards?
Mrs Ellman
We were extremely critical of how the proposals were put together, excluding any opportunity for input from serving coastguards.
Our report is unanimous. We recognise that modernisation of the coastguard is desirable. We see the coastguard as an essential emergency service, whose work load is increasing, and any proposals to restructure the service must not be made in haste.
Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)
Does the hon. Lady agree that willingness to listen and change policy is a sign of strength, as the Prime Minister asserted at this week’s press conference? My regional paper emphasised that point today in an article which concluded that the consequences would be counted in lives lost.
Mrs Ellman
The hon. Lady makes an important point. Our concern is about the saving of lives. The Government have indeed stated that they are listening; the test will in part be their reaction to our report.
The Committee cannot support the Government’s proposals for the future of the coastguard in their current form, and we call on the Government to withdraw them. The evidence that we received raised serious concerns that safety would be jeopardised if the proposals proceeded. That is why we call on the Government to withdraw them and issue revised plans that address the points that we have raised. Those proposals should be substantially different from those that have been offered, and they should be subject to a further short period of consultation.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Lady on her report. One of the most devastating of her recommendations was:
“It appears to us that the current proposals pay more attention to the MCA’s statutory obligations towards the commercial shipping industry and far less to its obligations towards leisure craft and small boat users. Accidents involving commercial vessels represent only a small proportion of all those that the Coastguard manage.”
Mrs Ellman
The hon. Gentleman raises an extremely important point; we noted that although the proposals appeared to address the commercial shipping sector to some degree, they seemed to ignore smaller vessels and the fishing industry. We were extremely concerned about that omission.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
I congratulate the hon. Lady and the Committee on an excellent report that raises a number of alarming concerns about both coastguards and emergency towing vessels, about which I am particularly worried and which she describes as “inviting disaster”. Given that the proposals were started under the previous Government and have taken a while to reach this stage under the current Government, does she agree that the Government should take their time to work out proper proposals? They do not have to rush into things.
Mrs Ellman
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I will talk about emergency towing vehicles shortly; I accept his point that decisions about human life should not be made in haste.
Our major concern is about safety and the loss of local knowledge, or “situational awareness”, among coastguard officers which will inevitably occur under the proposals. Reducing the number of full-time maritime rescue co-ordination centres so drastically, from 18 to three, with five centres operating in daytime only, and completely closing 10 centres, would reduce the quality and rate of exchange of information, particularly at critical points when it must be passed swiftly to save lives.
Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)
I thank our Chairman for giving way. Does she agree that regardless of how many coastguard stations we end up with, it is vital that existing stations are open 24 hours a day to ensure operational continuity when there is an incident?
Mrs Ellman
The hon. Gentleman played an important part in producing the report and, like the Committee, I agree that 24-hour stations should be the way forward. The Committee expresses serious concerns about the concept of daylight-only stations. The proposals assume that technology can replace local knowledge, but we were not convinced and think that that puts lives at risk. To refer again to his comments, we are not convinced that the proposal for daylight-only stations should be proceeded with.
Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)
I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend and her Committee on their excellent report. I have visited the Solent coastguard station, which would be the radio centre for most of the country under the proposals, and it was clear that it would be difficult to achieve local knowledge on the basis of those radio arrangements. Does my hon. Friend agree that even the stations that will be saved under the proposals face inadequate operating arrangements, particularly in terms of local knowledge and radio communication?
Mrs Ellman
I agree with my hon. Friend’s comments. The concern about local knowledge or, perhaps more broadly, situational knowledge cannot be emphasised enough. Our concern in that respect relates not only to the coastguard officers themselves, but to the volunteer coastguard. When we conducted our inquiry, particularly when we visited the coastguard stations, we were struck by the amount of teamworking, which is essential. We were concerned that the proposals would endanger that teamworking. To refer to the point made by the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone), I stress again the importance of considering the safety of leisure craft and small fishing vessels, as well as the commercial sector, and we felt that that part of shipping was omitted from consideration in producing the proposals.
Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)
I am grateful to the hon. Lady, who is the Chair of the Committee. I, too, gained a great deal from visiting the three stations—Falmouth, Greenock and Stornoway—and what struck me particularly was the willingness of the serving officers there to adapt and move forward. They do not necessarily wish to keep the status quo, but they want to be properly involved and to tap into their vast experience in shaping a sensible way forward.
Mrs Ellman
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments. He played an active part in drafting our proposals, and I certainly agree with what he says. Indeed, our Committee is asking the Government not just to withdraw their current proposals, but to introduce alternatives and, in doing so, to consider the alternative proposals that have been submitted by coastguard officers across the country.
I should like to refer now to the proposals on the withdrawal of funding for emergency towing vessels—the tugs that are there to prevent major pollution incidents. That decision for change was made against the findings of an independent risk assessment, and we consider it unwise and short-sighted; it is quite literally inviting disaster. Our evidence strongly suggests that no suitable commercial alternative exists to replace the current arrangements. We urge the Government to reverse their decision to terminate the provision of emergency towing vehicles by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, although we welcome efforts to find alternative sources of funding to help to fund such procedures.
The third part of the Government’s proposals concerns the withdrawal of Government financial support for the firefighting service at sea—the maritime incident response group, which is funded by the Government and firefighting authorities. We are extremely concerned that the Government have withdrawn their funding from that service and appear to expect the local fire and rescue authorities to fund it themselves. It is a national firefighting service, and we consider it unreasonable to expect the local fire services to fund it, particularly at this time of financial constraint. Our concern is that, if the burden was put entirely on the local fire and rescue authorities, that excellent service would cease to exist. The service is extremely important; not only is it to do with firefighting, but it is deals with chemical hazards. I ask the Government to remember how important that is and what the consequences of withdrawing the service could be.
Taken together, the proposed changes to the coastguard service, with the drastic closure of coastguard co-ordination centres and the possible loss of emergency towing vehicles and the maritime incident response group, represent a significant restructuring of the country’s marine search and rescue and accident and pollution prevention capabilities. It is deeply regrettable that the Department for Transport announced all three sets of proposals with no prior consultation whatsoever and did not consider their combined impact on safety. Although this cross-party Committee recognises the pressure on the Government to make financial savings and the need to modernise and use new technology, we simply cannot support proposals that reduce maritime safety in that way.
Albert Owen
Does my hon. Friend agree that any future proposal should be made in an oral statement to the House, so that Members on both sides have an opportunity to ask questions on that initial statement?
Mrs Ellman
My hon. Friend makes an important point. New proposals should enable the widest possible consultation, including the involvement of hon. Members.
I call on the Government to withdraw their proposals and to produce alternatives that address the concerns that we have identified. I present the report to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Congenital Cardiac Services for Children
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House notes the review led by the Joint Committee of Primary Care Trusts into the reconfiguration of children’s heart surgery; welcomes its aim of establishing a more sustainable provision of congenital cardiac services in England which has strong support from professional associations and patient groups; notes that concerns have been expressed during consultation on the proposals; calls on the review to take full account of accurate assessed travel and population projections, the views of ethnic minority communities affected, evidence supporting the co-location of children’s services, and the need for patients and their families to access convenient services; and therefore calls on the Joint Committee not to restrict itself to the four options outlined in the review but instead to consider further options in making its final recommendations.
I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing us the opportunity to hold this valuable debate. I apologise to the Committee and the Clerks for taking so long to table the motion, but I feel passionate that it is right to get a motion that has the effect that we want. I have probably learned more this week than in the past year, and if I have not got it right, I am sorry. I also thank the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) and my hon. Friends the Members for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood), for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) and for Winchester (Mr Brine), who have helped me through the past week.
This debate is timely, as the consultation by the review of children’s heart surgery around the country will come to an end soon. I completely agree with and support the professionals and patients who say that the review of congenital cardiac services is needed. Of course, we all want what is best for our children, and we want the best centres in the world. It is absolutely right and necessary that we learn from past mistakes in other units, but serious concerns about the process have been raised with me by clinicians and parents. I believe that it is my duty and that of others to scrutinise the review if we feel that there are problems.
There have been accusations that this has been turned into a political campaign. I stress that I have been keen not to make this a political campaign, and I have been incredibly impressed by the cross-party support of the Members from across the country who have been helping us. We will hear from other Members from all over the country—the debate is not just about the unit in Leeds—but I want to highlight the fact that my concerns relate to the review and not just to one centre. Although I will naturally refer to Leeds to highlight examples, I am sure that other Members will highlight similar problems with the review and relate them to their units. I am keen that the campaign does not set one centre against another, but that they are all considered equally.
I want first to deal with what I perceive as the flaws in the review. That is my main concern. From speaking to patients and families, I know that that has made them lose confidence in the review. We would all agree that public confidence in the review is important. The review has stated that the objective is to have centres that perform 400 procedures a year. The first version of the pre-consultation business case showed that patients from Doncaster and Sheffield would travel to Birmingham. That is absolutely right and in line with advice from the Yorkshire and Humber specialised commissioners, but in version 2 and the consultation options, the flow had changed to Newcastle. I understand that that helps the Newcastle figures, but I and anyone else who knows the area would surely question the likelihood of that happening. Far more plausible is that people would go to Birmingham or Leicester. What happens to Newcastle then? In addition, one of the options—the 400 minimum procedures—is not even met. The JCPCT explains that that is due to new patient flows.
At a number of centres, activity has increased in the past year. For example, Leeds is now doing 370 procedures a year, but in the pre-consultation assessment it was not afforded the same consideration as other centres that carry out similar numbers of procedures. Furthermore, the health impact assessment had not been completed before the final options were presented for consultation. The independent company undertaking that work said that this was not the usual approach taken in large reconfiguration proposals. That means that the public will have no access to the findings during the consultation period.
An issue that affects the black and minority ethnic community is that until 24 May the consultation questionnaire was available only in English and Welsh. As a Welsh speaker, I approve of having a Welsh version, but it was not until 12 weeks after the consultation began that the questionnaire became available in other languages, leaving just five weeks for the community to respond. In Leeds, more than 20% of the patients come from the BME community, so this is an important issue that needs to be addressed.
Finally, on the flaws, yesterday when the Safe and Sustainable team were here, we heard them say that co-location of services, in their view, meant anything up to 10 minutes away, yet the British Congenital Cardiac Association issued a statement on 18 February 2011, two days after the release of the business case, to clarify its professional view of the importance of co-location. I believe this demonstrates the BCCA’s dissatisfaction with the review’s interpretation of co-location.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
My hon. Friend refers to a meeting of the steering group with MPs yesterday. Does he agree that it was a slightly strange meeting and that there was a significant degree of defensiveness on the part of the steering group?
Stuart Andrew
That is a very good description of the meeting. I agree with my hon. Friend. If nothing else, it is good that this debate got the review board to come to Parliament and speak to MPs so that we could express our concerns.
On the case for Leeds specifically, as I said a moment ago, co-location of services is considered crucial by the BCCA. In Leeds we have one of the largest children’s hospitals in the country. A considerable amount of time has been spent bringing all the children’s services under one roof at Leeds General infirmary. The centre serves a population of 5.5 million. I cannot understand why the option has not been considered for Leeds when it has been considered for centres in Birmingham and Liverpool. Yorkshire has a growing population and a growing BME community. As I said, 20% of the patients come from that community. It is crucial that we take account of population numbers when considering the review.
How we care for all those families is also important. When I worked at Martin House children’s hospice, it was not just the care of the poorly child, but the care of the whole family, that was important. When people have a very poorly child, they want their family to be together. It has been said that parents will travel anywhere. Of course they will, but does that mean that we should make them travel when there could be alternatives?
The Yorkshire and Humber congenital cardiac network board has a well-established network model, is regarded as an exemplar in this country and is held in high regard across the region by both the professionals and the patients involved in the service. Although this was recognised by Sir Ian Kennedy’s expert panel and Leeds Teaching Hospital Trust was awarded the maximum score for networks in that assessment, the JCPCT, as part of the scoring of options for future configuration of centres, gave all potential networks the same score. It is unclear why a proven track record of delivering an exemplary network model was not considered an important factor in the ability to deliver this across a larger population and greater geographical spread in the future.
On the requirement for a minimum of 400 operations, Leeds delivered 316 cardiac operations in the 0 to 16-year-old group in 2009-10 and 372 in 2010-11. The process of recruiting a fourth surgeon is under way. By the time the review’s recommendations are implemented, Leeds Teaching Hospital Trust will deliver the minimum number of operations, which is 400, and it will have the minimum number of surgeons, which is four, that the standards require from within the current population base. Equally, Leeds Teaching Hospital Trust has provided detailed information to the Safe and Sustainable team for expansion of the current service, should it be required to deliver a change in capacity to support patients from a centre that does not get designation.
The review said yesterday that the debate is not about current services. It is about what will be provided in the future. The figures that I have cited show that Leeds’ case for being a centre caring for more than 400 patients is strong. Many patients and particularly clinicians have pointed out to me that it seems odd that we are having a review of children’s heart services without referring to adult services. Many of those patients will be the same: those children will grow up, and the doctors who perform the operations are often the same people caring for both groups, so why are we not looking at adult services now? It has been suggested that that review should come later, but if we have made decisions about children’s heart surgery, surely we have pre-empted what might happen in the future.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
I thank my hon. Friend and neighbour for giving way. Going slightly further on his last point, does he realise that if those surgeons are no longer there, they will not be able to perform operations on adults? Adult surgery would be very detrimentally affected.
Stuart Andrew
I could not agree more. My hon. Friend is right; if we have a review of children’s cardiac services, surely we must consider what will happen to adult services. We should be talking about that now.
I could go on much longer and talk about the cases of various parents whom I have met, but I know that other hon. Members will do that, probably far more eloquently than I could. I am keen that the motion is supported because I want it to send a clear message to the review team that we are asking it to consider all the points that will be made today and all the points that have been made by the campaigns across the country. It was a privilege to go to Downing street the other day with children, patients and clinicians from the Leeds centre to present a petition of more than 500,000 names. That is a significant petition by anybody’s standards and a credit to that campaign.
I am concerned that after consideration of the consultation responses, it will be difficult to respond to all the evidence by pigeon-holing them into the four options in the review. That is why our motion today urges the joint committee not to restrict itself to those four options and instead to think outside the box, as they say. Let us look at a different proposal that delivers the services and the quality that we want and also takes account of all the responses that we have received.
Finally, I want to pay a personal tribute to all the families and campaigners, especially in Yorkshire and the Humber. In all the campaigning that I have ever done, I have never seen such a well-organised and dedicated campaign. The subject is sometimes emotional, but the responses that have come from patients across Yorkshire shows that there can be an alternative that delivers the services that we want. I hope the House will support the motion.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. As hon. Members can see, this is a popular debate. There is, therefore, a six-minute limit on contributions.
Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on introducing the motion and arguing his case so powerfully. The debate shows the value of Back Bench-initiated topics, which has enabled the House to speak out on an issue of enormous concern to the public, as demonstrated by the petition he referred to and by the Southern Daily Echo petition of nearly 250,000 signatures that was taken to Downing street earlier this week in support of the Southampton centre, which is mainly what I want to speak about. I will make just a few key points, as many Members wish to speak.
First, I want to praise the work done in the existing centres, including the John Radcliffe hospital in my constituency, which commands fantastic support from the parents of children who have been treated there. The Young Hearts organisation, which was set up to support parents of children with heart conditions in Oxfordshire, has been leading a great campaign, rightly paying moving tributes to the skill and dedication of surgeons, doctors, nurses and whole medical teams who have saved children’s lives and to whom we all owe a debt of thanks.
Secondly, as the hon. Gentleman noted, a key concern in the debate, and in considering the Safe and Sustainable review, must be to secure the best possible treatments and outcomes for children with congenital and other heart conditions. We must be guided by medical and research expertise, which few of us in this place are in a position to second-guess. I am therefore mindful of the joint statement by the Royal College of Surgeons and the Society for Cardiothoracic Surgery, in which they strongly support the concentration of treatment centres. They state:
“England has the right number of heart surgeons treating rare heart conditions in children, but we do know that they are thinly spread over too many units. A better service would be provided if this expertise were condensed in fewer units with the critical number of staff to support each other, disseminate new techniques and train the next generation of specialists.”
They believe that the proposals
“will result in rapid and significant improvement in treatment for some of the most vulnerable patients treated by the NHS.”
We should give great weight to that unequivocal statement.
The joint statement went on to suggest—this brings me to my third point—that:
“The benefits of undertaking this change, however, need to be balanced against longer journeys for some families”.
That, along with quality, is a matter of great concern on both sides of the House, and certainly in Oxfordshire. It was also stressed by the Oxfordshire joint health overview and scrutiny committee and the Young Hearts campaign in relation to the implications for patients in our area if any option other than option B, which is to retain the centre at the Southampton University Hospital NHS Trust, is chosen. As today’s Oxford Mail editorial states:
“If Southampton loses out in the Government shake up of children’s heart services, then so does Oxford.”
The benefits of this option, and in particular of retaining the Southampton centre, lie not only in the fact that the Kennedy review ranks Southampton highest in the country outside London for quality, but that the Oxford Radcliffe Hospitals NHS Trust has developed a joint network of care with Southampton, enabling local children who have surgery in Southampton to receive follow-up care and support services in the excellent facilities at the Oxford children’s hospital and to be able to progress as they grow older to the Oxford heart centre, thereby maintaining continuity of care, which the hon. Gentleman rightly said was so important in the relationship between children’s services and adult services. I very much hope that this south of England congenital heart network, with Southampton and Oxford working closely together, will be part of the option that is finally chosen.
That network does not figure in the present options, but I welcome the news in today’s briefing from Safe and Sustainable that a specialist team is examining it. The need for this flexibility is a key reason why I support the call in the motion for the joint committee not to restrict itself narrowly to the options set out in the original review. As Young Hearts has pointed out, it is important to consider the children needing paediatric cardiac services who were not born with a heart defect but who have suffered a virus or accident requiring cardiac treatment. The Oxford-Southampton partnership will retain ready access to the skills and facilities needed for that care.
That form of partnership network, with collaboration between a surgical centre and another cardiac care centre, offers a good model for other parts of the country. It enables us to ensure that children have the benefit of both the critical mass of surgery, which surgeons advise can significantly and rapidly improve treatment, and more convenient access to related services and continuing care nearer their homes. Surely that is the outcome that we all want. I very much hope that the review and the Government will take it forward, with the Southampton-Oxford partnership being the best way to retain high-quality and accessible services for central southern England.
Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)
Like the right hon. Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith), I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on introducing the motion, which is of huge importance to my constituents and to the national health service. In contributing to the debate, I wear two hats. First, I represent the village of Glenfield. Glenfield hospital is actually in the neighbouring constituency of the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall), but it takes its name from the village in my constituency. Secondly, I am Chair of the Health Committee. The Committee has not approached the subject specifically, because we have been looking at a number of other matters, but we have so far published two reports on commissioning, which is precisely at the heart of today’s debate.
In a sense, I personify the conflict that every Member feels between the constituency interest and the national interest, and in this case I do so in a particularly dramatic form, as one of the surgical units involved is closely associated with my constituency. My first point is that that conflict exists for all Members. We are of course here to represent our constituents’ interests, but I argue that we are here first and foremost as Members of a national Parliament and should seek, as my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey recognises, the right answer for all NHS patients, not simply for a particular local interest.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
I wish to make a very small point because the right hon. Gentleman used the word “national”. Many of the services we are considering are also used by Welsh and Scottish constituents, so it is important to ensure that there is that communication between the different elements.
Mr Dorrell
I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s point.
My hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey said that this is not a political issue, by which he meant that it is not a party political issue. That is exactly right, but issues can be political without being party political. It is important that the House, in approaching the subject, makes it clear that the issue should ultimately be resolved according to clinical standards, not as a form of political bartering, whether party political or through the general representation of local interests.
I am in the happy situation, personifying, as I do, the conflict between local and national interests, that the specialist group has recommended a solution that accords with my constituents’ views, but I think that in approaching the subject it is important to be clear about the ladder of interest: we should approach this from the point of view of national standards for the service delivery. We of course should represent the views of our constituents, but we should be clear that the national view should come first.
Writing in The Times today, Sir Bruce Keogh, the medical director of the NHS, states:
“Intellectually, the case for change is compelling and widely accepted. Sadly, the realpolitik is that the closer we get to a solution, the more personal, professional and political interests conspire to perpetuate mediocrity and inhibit the pursuit of excellence…For too long this has been filed in the ‘too difficult’ box. Time is running out.”
Those words should ring loud in our ears as we debate the subject this afternoon.
We should recognise that the whole issue of child heart surgery has form in the history of the national health service. It is now over a decade since Sir Ian Kennedy published his review of circumstances that illustrate what can go tragically wrong when things are allowed to drift on and when real issues are not addressed. Although I am of course here as a Member representing my constituents’ interests, I think that the key priority for the House this afternoon is to support the principle that this issue must be decided in the interests of the children who are the patients and who will become the adult patients, and in a way that satisfies the key driver of the pursuit of excellence in clinical standards.
I welcome the fact that the previous Government set up the review to ensure that we addressed the issues that had been left to drift on for too long since the Bristol heart review a decade ago, and I wholeheartedly endorse the view, expressed by Sir Bruce in today’s Times, that the time to act is now.
As a local MP, I wonder what the effect is on Leicester of this drive to a decision. I have already referred to the fact that I am not in an uncomfortable position, because on page 93 the review states:
“Option 2”—
which became option A—
“is viable as it is consistently the highest scoring potential option.”
The review’s recommendation is that the process go ahead based on option A, and that is convenient from the point of view of the person arguing the case that I do, but I conclude that if anyone wants to argue for an alternative outcome, it behoves them, particularly in view of the history of this issue in the national health service, to present a coherent, whole argument for how their solution represents a better solution for the patients of those services, while reflecting, of course, the local interest of the people we are elected to represent.
Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) in debate, something that I have not done for 15 years in this place, and as ever I agree with the broad thrust of what he has said. I welcome the opportunity to take part in this debate about the Safe and Sustainable review. I want to make two points about the case for the review itself and the case for children’s cardiac care at the Freeman hospital in my constituency.
The review of paediatric cardiac services in England and Wales was instigated in 2008 under the previous Government. It was instigated not by them, not by the civil service but by the health care professionals themselves. There were two previous reviews, in 2000 and 2003, recommending the establishment of fewer, larger cardiac surgical centres; in 2006, a national workshop of experts concluded that the current configuration was unsustainable; in 2007, the Royal College of Surgeons called for the concentration of surgical expertise in fewer, larger surgical centres.
The 2008 exercise has been carried out on behalf of the 10 specialised commissioning groups in England and their primary care trusts. The clinical case for the exercise is pretty formidable: clinical outcomes are better at high-volume centres; it is undesirable that surgical expertise is spread too thinly, because apart from anything else it mitigates against the provision of 24-hour surgical cover; the increasing complexity of what can be achieved argues for fewer specialist centres; it is easier for fewer units with larger case loads to retain surgeons and to develop expertise; and strong leadership from surgical centres underpins non-surgical cardiology care in local hospitals.
Mr Nicholas Brown
If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I will not.
There is strong clinical support for the review. The relevant royal colleges have all endorsed it; the available research evidence underpins it; and all 10 specialised commissioning groups and their local primary care trusts committed themselves to it at the outset. That seems to be a pretty formidable case.
I am the constituency Member for the Freeman hospital in Newcastle upon Tyne, and on 10 June I visited its paediatric surgery unit. I never cease to be impressed by the care, kindness and surgical skill that the national health service provides. It is very moving to see very young children whose lives are literally being saved, and to meet youngsters who, 20 years ago, would not have had a chance of life. The unit at the Freeman is one of two children’s heart transplant units in England, the other being Great Ormond Street in London, and of course the unit benefits enormously from its link with the internationally renowned adult cardiac services on the same site.
The expertise at the Freeman has been built up over decades. The first successful child heart transplant in the UK was carried out there 20 years ago, and I am happy to tell the House that the young lady is alive and well, living and working on Tyneside.
Clinical outcomes at the children’s heart unit at the Freeman are excellent. On my visit, I saw artificial ventricular device systems, known as Berlin hearts, attached to very young patients, but, if the unit closed, that pioneering work would move, probably to Birmingham, leaving the whole of the north without provision. There are similar issues with the extra corporeal membrane oxygenation services currently provided at the hospital. The children’s heart unit really is a national resource, with an international reputation.
No one can doubt the commitment of the senior management and of the trust board to the pioneering children’s cardiac work at the Freeman. The trust has invested in services and, pending the outcome of the review, has a further investment programme ready to go. The review team, in its assessment, has weighted quality, sustainability and deliverability more heavily than access and travel, and that seems to me to be the right prioritisation.
I want to make two final points. Although this is an England and Wales review, the people of Scotland could also be affected by the outcome, certainly as far as nationally commissioned services are concerned. As well as with Scotland, the Freeman hospital has well established connections with Northern Ireland and with the Republic of Ireland, and although I recognise that this was not formally part of the review team’s remit, I welcome its decision to invite observers from Scotland and Northern Ireland to its deliberations.
My final point echoes the point that the right hon. Member for Charnwood, the Health Committee Chair made. I welcome the effort made by the review team and its sponsors to meet MPs yesterday in the House. They made an impressive case for the review itself, and for the thorough and detailed way they have gone about it. We are constituency representatives, each trying to do our best for the communities we represent. Having said that, I believe we should think very carefully before trying to impose our political judgments—based on support for the constituencies that we represent—over the judgments of the health care professionals who have studied the issues in detail and spoken so clearly about the clinical priorities involved for the whole country.
Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con)
I very much support the principle that lies behind the review—that we need larger, more sustainable centres with the same overall number of specialists throughout the country. That is why charity and campaign groups, such as the Children’s Heart Federation and Little Hearts Matter, back the change.
I recognise that people will have to travel further as a consequence, and that will sometimes be extremely difficult, for families in particular, but the choice is between people travelling further and getting the best outcome for their child, and people having a shorter distance to travel but perhaps compromising the outcomes that can be achieved. The clinical evidence is unambiguous: travelling further means that some children will live who would otherwise die. On that basis—the whole basis behind the review—we have to bite the bullet and make change.
I support the principle of fewer, larger units, but the experience of Royal Brompton hospital in my constituency has made me question the process that is being used to make individual decisions. As my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) pointed out, the matter needs to be depoliticised from the outset. The review is taking place at arm’s length from the Government. Indeed, as the right hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown) said, it was set up under the previous Government and is being administered by a body called the joint committee of primary care trusts, which I assume is up for abolition.
Phase 1 of the assessment process involved ranking all the existing units on core standards, sustainability, facilities and so on. Great care was taken, and that makes the next phases all the more mystifying. Out of the 11 units ranked, the Royal Brompton came joint fourth, on 464 points. Of the 11 units assessed, only two had the maximum number of four surgeons—the Royal Brompton and Great Ormond Street. In terms of the number of procedures undertaken each year, the Royal Brompton came fourth highest of all. In each of the three objective criteria, the Royal Brompton was in the top four nationally. I therefore asked the joint committee of PCTs this question: why bother to rank all the units only then to stipulate that one of the top four has to close whatever else happens? That is the consequence of the decision arbitrarily to rule out keeping three centres open in London. One of the top four units in the country is to be axed, no matter its size and no matter its quality, due merely to its location. That flies in the face of the starting point of the review—that it was all about clinical outcomes, not geography.
The Royal Brompton has four specialist surgeons who perform 520 operations, including 453 children’s heart operations, per year. It has a fantastic safety record, with an aggregate mortality rate of 0.94 of 1%—less than half the national average of 2%. Why, then, when it is already a model example of what the review wants to create, does the consultation, in all the options available, decree that it must close? The joint committee of PCTs is claiming that it has an open mind, but in reality it is consulting on four options, all of which would shut the unit at the Royal Brompton.
The knock-on effects on services elsewhere in the trust would be considerable, especially on children with cystic fibrosis, of whom there are 300 in the country. The future of provision for those children would be extremely unclear. It is also unclear what capacity the remaining two hospitals in London would have to take on—
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns)
I will speak with great care because—my hon. Friend is as aware of this as I am—of the possible judicial review with regard to the Royal Brompton. I would like to say, though, as I think it may help him, that no decisions have yet been made. The consultation literature specifically asks consultees for their views on how many centres it is best to have in London—two or three. If they agree that two is optimal, they are asked to state which two they prefer, including the Royal Brompton. Even though it is not included in any of the pillars, people who are taking part in the consultation process can argue its case, and it will be considered because the JCPCT is taking a flexible approach to the consultation process.
Greg Hands
I welcome that intervention from the Minister. He is right that it is open to the consultation to consider it, as it says on the last page of the consultation document, but the document was contradictory on this point in the first place. On page 84, it says:
“London requires at least 2 centres due to the size of the population it covers”,
but in a footnote on page 93 it still imposes the arbitrary limit of two centres at most.
The joint committee has belatedly recognised a problem. Under pressure, it announced at the beginning of May that an expert panel would be established to review the wider impact on other services if cardiac paediatrics were to close. That was welcome, but it has continued to press ahead with the original consultation and names for the new panel were not proposed until this week. By the time the new panel reports in August, the consultation will have closed. What happens if its response reflects the serious concerns about a whole series of national services? Having consulted on options A, B, C and D, it can hardly go for an option E that no one was asked about. It would then probably have to re-consult.
I became the MP for the Royal Brompton in May last year, although, as the neighbouring MP previously, I have been very familiar with its work for many years. Its previous MP, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), also strongly supports its campaign to fight the proposal. I have visited the hospital three times in the past year. The proposal to end its cardiac paediatrics has been brought to the attention of parliamentary colleagues across all parties and across large parts of London, the south-east and East Anglia. A huge petition has been gathered, signed by more than 30,000 people, and tomorrow we are delivering it to No. 10. I have written at length and in detail to the Secretary of State on the matter, and he helpfully replied—I think this was confirmed by the Minister—that
“no decisions have yet been made”,
including on the number of units to be located in London. That is a cause for encouragement.
I repeat that I support the aims of the review, but the consultation has been badly flawed. Three units in London, perhaps restructured, should have been an option, and the knock-on effects of closing services should have been considered. The case must now be re-examined. The Royal Brompton is good enough, large enough and loved enough to survive.
Jon Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)
I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) and other members of the Backbench Business Committee on securing this timely debate.
When I delivered my maiden speech in the Chamber two weeks ago I mentioned my support for the campaign to maintain the children’s heart unit at Glenfield hospital, which, as the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), said, is in the constituency of my parliamentary neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall). The campaign is supported by my hon. Friend and by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), as well as by many Members from across the county, if not the east midlands as a whole. It is right that this does not become a party political matter.
Last week, my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West and I attended the public consultation event on Glenfield at the Walkers stadium in my constituency attended by hundreds of concerned parents, dedicated staff and local people, not only from Leicester but beyond the east midlands. Many of those people have never used the unit at Glenfield and, one hopes, will never need to use it, but they were all convinced of the logic of maintaining it. We heard moving stories from parents telling us how outstanding was the quality of care provided to their children. We heard testimonies from many of the staff at Glenfield, who described in remarkable detail the quality of the care that they provide and how they intend to continue to improve it.
We also heard many people, particularly members of the Asian community, express frustration, if not anger, about the fact that Glenfield features in only one option—option A. Many Members will know that Leicester has a very diverse population. Evidence shows that there is a high prevalence of heart disease in Asian communities, and some of my constituents from those communities are particularly concerned that Leicester features in only one option. In the past few weeks, people from mosques, gurdwaras, Hindu temples and the Federation of Muslim Organisations have been very vocal about this.
I want to focus my remarks on something that is unique and specific to Glenfield: our world-class ECMO—extracorporeal membrane oxygenation—service. An ECMO machine—I have to concede that I am far from an expert on these things, so Members may want to correct me—rests the heart and/or lungs of a patient waiting for recovery. I have been told by many at Glenfield that this procedure was pioneered there 20 years ago. Today, Glenfield has more than 10 machines, and it is no exaggeration to describe it as a world-leading centre in this field. Glenfield is the only centre in the country that provides ECMO for patients of all ages, from newborns to adults. Its expertise has been recognised on many occasions. For example, last year 110 adults were treated during the swine flu outbreak at Glenfield’s ECMO centre.
How is that relevant to the future of the children’s heart unit? Quite simply, the ECMO service is provided by the same staff who work in the congenital heart centre. Therefore, if that centre closes, Glenfield will lose its ECMO service as well. Of course, the ECMO service could go to Birmingham, as is mooted in the consultation, but that rather misses the point. Many of the staff working at Leicester’s ECMO centre have done so for nearly 20 years. Their combined expertise has helped to make Glenfield’s ECMO unit the world-class facility it is today. Many of my constituents are concerned that it would be years before an ECMO unit could be re-established elsewhere with the same level of competence. Training new staff to have the level of expertise offered at Glenfield could take up to 10 years. That is why many people in my constituency feel that keeping this national service is vital. Giles Peek, a consultant paediatric heart surgeon, told the Leicester Mercury:
“We use it not just after surgery but also to stabilise children and to stop them dying before surgery. We are almost always full and often take children from other hospitals… Our role at Glenfield as national reference centre for this treatment is important and underestimated.”
Although I understand that this is a consultation and that it is right that these decisions are made by clinicians and not politicians, I hope that the joint committee will consider further options because of the expertise at our ECMO centre. Many of my constituents would be grateful if the Minister reflected on the national implications of Glenfield losing its ECMO centre and, at an appropriate time, made some remarks about that.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
I, too, thank my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) for his hard work, along with other colleagues, in securing this Back-Bench debate.
I will speak on behalf of the Leeds children’s heart surgery unit, which serves the whole of Yorkshire. I was fortunate enough to visit the unit in November. I met its wonderful staff and surgeons, and spoke to many parents and some of the patients. Over the next couple of hours, we will hear a lot of intricate detail, just as we have already. There will be many statistics, facts and figures. I want to give a few facts and figures of my own. Half a million names were on the petition to save the Leeds unit, which we delivered to No.10 Downing street on Tuesday. That is the biggest petition ever raised in Yorkshire, and we can be very proud about that. The two-hour radius around the Leeds heart surgery unit reaches 14.5 million people. Including check-up appointments, the unit sees 10,000 children annually, and it performs 340 operations.
Julian Smith
As well as the number of operations performed at Leeds, will my hon. Friend talk about the rurality of many of the areas it serves? Skipton and Ripon is the most rural part of North Yorkshire. I have received many representations from my constituents about the issue of distance that there will be if Leeds does not survive.
Jason McCartney
My hon. Friend makes an important point. Many of those 14.5 million people are in rural areas, such as his North Yorkshire constituency. I will touch on that issue in relation to my Colne Valley constituency shortly.
I want to say a few words about the inconsistencies in the options. The Safe and Sustainable review has said consistently that centres should perform a minimum of 400 operations a year, and ideally 500. However, under option B, Bristol and Southampton would fail to achieve that number. The review’s projected figures show that they would perform 360 and 382 operations respectively. During the meeting in Leeds, campaigners were told that it was not viable to have three centres in the north of England because the figures would be 347 for Leeds and 381 for Newcastle. If option B is viable, why is it not viable to have three centres in the north of England? Would not a solution be to keep Leeds and Newcastle open, and to give them two years in which to achieve all the standards set out by the review?
Mr Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)
That is precisely why the motion calls on the JCPCT to show maximum flexibility and not to restrict itself to the four options. The answer could be, “Yes we can.”
Jason McCartney
I agree that that is what we are looking for. The idea behind the motion is to ask for more flexibility.
I have talked about statistics and about the 500,000 names on the petition, but there are three compelling reasons why I am speaking in this debate—or perhaps I should say three young reasons. Those three young reasons all happen to be at one school in my Colne Valley constituency. I met three pupils at Linthwaite Clough school near Huddersfield, who back the campaign to save Yorkshire’s only children’s heart surgery unit because they owe their lives to it. George Sutcliffe is a 12-year-old who uses a wheelchair six days a week and attends the heart surgery unit in Leeds about once a month. Ben Pogson, who is 10, and Joel Bearder, who is just four, both underwent major heart surgery at the unit. Ben and Joel’s mums, Sam and Gaynor, have played leading roles in the campaign to save the unit, along with many others, and I praise their contributions. As well as those three pupils, one of the teachers at the school owes his life to the skill of the medical staff in Leeds. Richard Quarmby, a learning mentor at the school who will start his teacher training in September, had major surgery for his congenital heart condition at the Leeds heart surgery unit.
Those people owe their lives to the unit. They cite its wonderful staff and its proximity to Huddersfield as crucial. It takes less than an hour to get there. The unit gives fantastic family support and there is accommodation for parents if needed. As a result of George, Ben and Joel’s treatment at the unit, the Linthwaite Clough school council has decided to support it as its annual chosen charity. Already, it has organised a series of fundraisers, including a colourful, cheerful day. For the reasons I have given, I think that the Safe and Sustainable review should be renamed the safe, sustainable and supporting families review.
Finally, on behalf of Ben, Joel, George and many others, I shall support the motion.
Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on the hard work he has put in to secure this debate. I compliment him on the sensitivity with which he phrased his contribution. I hope that that will allow the Government Whips to stay out of the decision and allow Members to get what we seek, which is not interference in clinical observations, but a review of how this is being carried out geographically.
The right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) was more sanguine than I am about the involvement of Sir Bruce Keogh, the NHS medical director. I found his article in The Times this morning ill-timed, coming on the morning of a debate, when feelings are running high. I do not find it acceptable for him to say that anyone who opposes his view is “disingenuous” and that
“political interests conspire to perpetuate mediocrity and inhibit the pursuit of excellence.”
I find that offensive. Nobody in the Chamber argues with the clinical objectives. I find it unacceptable that some youngsters who are taken to centres for medical treatment get excellent treatment and that others get less than excellent treatment. I find it sensible and laudable that we should rationalise those centres to build up experience and techniques, and so that there are more people to share their experiences.
The right hon. Member for Charnwood said that we should not oppose the proposal because it is right clinically. He told us not to think of our own hospitals, but to think nationally. “Nationally”, however, also means “regionally”. The point that has not been made is that, while the Chamber should accept the clinical arguments, equality of access is also important. That is what is being said by most of the opponents of the proposals, and they are not being disingenuous. For instance, in the Newcastle versus Leeds argument, it would not be acceptable for me to argue in favour of the Leeds case on the basis that Leeds children should not have to travel 100 miles to Newcastle, because if we won our case, Newcastle children would have to travel 100 miles to Leeds. If it is wrong for us, it is wrong for them.
If the rationalisation, which we accept, takes place properly—and this is where the Minister comes in—there will be an underlay of fairness and equality of access. We have a National Theatre in London, but it is not a National Theatre for Yorkshire. It is nice for Hampstead, but it is not very good for Seacroft in Leeds.
Mr Dorrell
I think that the hon. Gentleman slightly misrepresented what I said. I did not say, “You must accept it”, or “Take it or leave it”. I said that those who wished to argue for a different approach must argue for the whole approach, and not for a sectional interest.
Mr Mudie
I entirely accept that, and I did not intend to suggest that the right hon. Gentleman had said anything different. My point is that, while the clinical case for a rationalisation is unarguable, equality of access is as important a consideration as any. Excellent treatment must not be available to only a certain number of people.
Greg Mulholland
We all accept the clinical premise of the review, but is it not incredibly arrogant for anyone to suggest that it cannot be fallible? There are obvious flaws in it. Many clinicians themselves say that it is flawed.
Mr Mudie
I hear what the hon. Gentleman says. I think that the same case was made by the right hon. Member for Charnwood. We may prevaricate for one reason or another, but sometimes it may be necessary to make a decision even when we think that it is not perfect, and I think that this is an instance of that. If the life of a child is involved, we must make a decision.
If we continue to challenge the clinical aspect of the review, we will fall into the trap of allowing a bad situation to continue. The case for change has been proved, and, while we may differ on how that change should be made, what is important is for us to express the view—and I should like to see it challenged—that there should be equality of access. Each region should ensure that every part of it has equality of access where possible, although that will involve some difficulty if Yorkshire is lumped together with the north-east.
In the last year I have had to move from my constituency office, which was in the centre of the constituency. I was offered cheaper, perhaps even better, accommodation in the outer part, but I felt that it would be unfair on the other wards for me to move away from the centre. If option 4 is either Leeds or Newcastle, I think that that is unfair on both. I do not want to close Newcastle, and Newcastle does not want to close Leeds. Locating provision sensibly in each region is important, but the House should also recognise, as it rarely does, that the country has some corners in which there is no equality of access in any respect. Those in Newcastle, in the top corner, and those in Cornwall, in the bottom corner, do not have access to many facilities that are accessible to people in the midlands, in Yorkshire and, above all, in London.
I believe that the House should accept the motion, and that the review team should forget about the clinical arguments and produce a template that proves to every Member that the excellent services that we should be demanding for children’s care will be shared equally around the country. The team should give some real, positive, out-of-the-box thought to how to deal with areas that generally lose out.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
It is a pleasure to follow my Leeds colleagues, and it is a pleasure to work with all the Leeds and Yorkshire and Humber Members of Parliament throughout the House in support of the inspiring campaign to save the Leeds unit. I too was proud to be there to help present that remarkable petition. Nearly half a million people in the region have spoken out in an attempt to save the unit. When I visited it, I had the same experience as other Members have had when visiting their local units. I found it incredibly moving to meet those babies and children and their families, while also being conscious that I was walking into a centre of excellence. It benefits from a genuine co-location of services, which is the gold standard that has been set, and 370 operations are already being performed there—very close to the 400 figure.
Mr Kevan Jones
I note the size of the petition, but as a former Defence Minister responsible for defence medical services I faced similar petitions when the Ministry of Defence was concentrating military health care at University Hospital Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust, which is now a centre of excellence not just in this country but internationally. Although petitions are valuable, clinical outcomes must be at the forefront of any decision, and the MOD’s decision to concentrate defence medical services at Birmingham was the right one.
Greg Mulholland
It would be very worrying if the extraordinarily overwhelming views expressed by people were ignored, but of course the clinical view is vital, and, as I have said, many clinicians have a problem with the flaws—clinical flaws—in the review.
Stuart Andrew
My hon. Friend mentioned the co-location of services. As I said in my speech, Leeds has spent considerable time ensuring that all children’s services are under one roof. If we lost the heart unit there, might not other services be affected as well?
Greg Mulholland
I have not yet had a chance to congratulate my hon. Friend on the way in which he has co-ordinated our campaign. It has been a pleasure to work with him so closely, and I look forward to continuing to work with him and other colleagues. He is right: one of those serious flaws is the failure to consider the impact on adult heart services, which would be a huge problem.
There is real concern out there, as has been demonstrated not only by the petition in Yorkshire and petitions in other parts of the country, but by the views expressed by many respected practising and retired clinicians. The concern about the closures is understandable, but there is also concern about the review itself. There is concern about the process, about the conclusions reached so far, about the lack of consistency in the recommendations, about the lack of logic in relation to the premise of the review, and, I am sorry to say, about a lack of impartiality.
That is why it is right for the House to have an opportunity to express that concern on behalf of all the areas concerned, and why it is fitting that the Minister of State, Department of Health, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), is present. I thank the Minister for the way in which he has engaged with us, and I urge Members in all parts of the House to support the motion, so that we can address the concern that has been expressed outside and inside the House by considering the possibility of other configurations.
I wish to echo three points that have been made about the wonderful Leeds unit. The first is about the co-location of services. The unit is a case of true co-location, which is what the British Congenital Cardiac Association has called “gold standard” care. Leeds is currently one of only two hospitals shown in the review to have such a type and level of service. Mr Joe Mellor, a consultant anaesthetist at Leeds, says:
“What is particularly upsetting about the proposals is that our patients from Yorkshire would leave the Leeds unit and have to travel to Newcastle or Leicester. Leeds has centralised all its children’s services onto one site. Neither Newcastle nor Leicester have come close to achieving this. Congenital cardiac surgery is a very complicated form of medical treatment. If in Leeds we encounter a problem where the child needs the help of an intestinal surgeon, or a neurosurgeon, or need renal therapy, or a host of other possible therapy, then we get it immediately in our own children’s hospital.”
Jonathan Darling, a consultant paediatrician at the Leeds General infirmary, states:
“To lose heart surgery from the Leeds Children’s hospital would be a huge blow, especially when we have just centralised services precisely to realise the benefits of having all paediatric services co-located on one site. The Review process does not seem to give sufficient weighting to this true co-location.”
I am afraid that it simply has not done so, which is worrying and quite extraordinary.
The second point that I wish to make is on the issue of population, which colleagues from the region have already raised. It simply makes no sense to close a wonderful unit that is already performing almost the number of operations that it must, when there are so many people in the area and the population is growing. I echo the comments of the hon. Member for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) when I say that of course we do not want to see the Newcastle unit close. We do not want to see any unit close, because this is about getting things right. However, I say to him and others that it would be absolutely perverse to close Leeds simply to enable Newcastle to perform a sufficient number of operations. If we stick to the number in the review, Newcastle can only perform that number of operations if Leeds closes. That is absurd.
Mr Mudie
The point I was making was that if we are to take the review’s point and place units strategically, the obvious place with a mass population is Leeds. However, I said that that would leave Newcastle out on a limb, and something has to be done about that. The case for Leeds is unchallengeable.
Greg Mulholland
Indeed, and we have to get the point across to colleagues in other areas that perhaps we have to challenge the premise of the review and some of its figures if we are to reach other recommendations.
The third matter that I wish to mention, as the hon. Gentleman did, is travel. In the meeting yesterday with the review team, I was frankly dismayed by how little consideration was being given to the reality of ordinary working families and the effect that having to travel would have on them. I shall give a couple of examples. Johanne Walters, the mother of Emma, states that to them the change
“would mean her…surgery will be undertaken miles away from home and nobody would be there to support me—no family no friends—and it is incredibly difficult being there 24/7 at your child’s bedside, even with this support”.
Joanne and David Binns, whose son Oliver has been treated, have said:
“Oliver is our only child, and I’m sure you can imagine how it turned our world upside down. But we knew that we had family and friends who could just pop in and make us some food at the end of a long day, bring us clean clothes, and just be there if we needed a chat. I can’t imagine how much extra pressure it would have been at this point to have to think about long distance travel and accommodation on top of everything else.”
Matthew and Karen are the parents of Liam Hey, a constituent of mine who has become something of a celebrity. He is a wonderful young man who is being treated at Leeds. Karen has said:
“My son would not be here if it wasn’t for the LGI. It would be too much of a trauma to transfer children to another place.”
Travel has simply not received adequate consideration. It comes out top of the criteria that people give when we ask them, but it is not anywhere near the top of the list of the review’s considerations. That is wrong.
We have to re-examine the situation. I am delighted that the House has had a chance to debate it today, and that Ministers have been so accommodating in enabling us to do so. I urge the House to support the motion. We should come back with some proposals that will really work for children and that we can all support.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. To accommodate more Members, I am reducing the time limit to five minutes. I hope that both Front Benchers will take into account the popularity of the debate and the need to get Back Benchers in when they make their contributions.
Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)
I do not have a children’s heart unit in my constituency. I do not even have one close by. There are parents in my constituency who are 50 miles from the nearest unit, but they tell me that they do not care about that. They would travel to the ends of the earth to get access to the best provision. That is what matters to them, not having somewhere on their doorstep.
Stuart Andrew
I have to take issue with that. The parents I have spoken to are very concerned that they might have to travel. Of course they will travel as far as they have to, but if we can provide a service closer to their homes, should we not strive for that?
Pat Glass
They are saying that because they have a unit on their doorstep now. We do not all live in big cities, and some people have to travel a long way. Parents tell me that what they want is the best services, and even if they have to travel to get them, that is what comes first. Travel and access are issues to consider, but every parent who has contacted me has confirmed that the most important thing for them is that their child gets access to the best provision available, and to surgeons who carry out these complex operations a couple of times a week, not a couple of times a year. They tell me that they will go anywhere to ensure that their child gets the best chance of surviving and that their condition improves.
Mr Kevan Jones
Does my hon. Friend agree that in County Durham, the concentration of adult cardiac surgery and emergency care at the Freeman hospital and the James Cook university hospital, which was controversial when it happened, has improved not only care but the survival rates of individuals from County Durham? Even though there are hospitals in the county closer to some people, survival rates have gone up because of that concentration.
Pat Glass
Absolutely, and we need to appreciate why such moves are necessary. None of us wants another Bristol baby tragedy, and I think there is general agreement that we need changes in the organisation of services to drive up the quality of treatment and bring together specialist surgeons to work in larger teams.
Pat Glass
I am not going to give way, no matter how much the hon. Gentleman hassles me. I can see that that is what he plans to do.
Many local campaigns have been mounted, and they have been supported by local MPs fighting for their own units or fighting to delay decisions. I absolutely understand that, but the decisions have been put off before for many reasons, which I believe is to the detriment of patients.
The decision should not be made on a political basis. Few of us in the House are qualified to judge the quality, sustainability and deliverability of clinical outcomes in children’s heart provision. On 7 June, when I questioned the Minister of State, Department of Health, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), on the matter, he gave me a categorical assurance that decisions would be
“based on clinical outcomes, not political considerations.”—[Official Report, 7 June 2011; Vol. 529, c. 12.]
I hope that he will keep his nerve in the face of sustained political lobbying.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns)
If it encourages or reassures the hon. Lady, I will give her that commitment again today.
Pat Glass
I thank the Minister.
The Children’s Heart Foundation has advised me that the closer we get to a decision, the more difficult the political battle will become. In a bid to save surgery facilities in their areas, some parents and clinicians are asking MPs to stall progress towards a decision. Parents have been told that some units will close, when in fact even if surgery is centred elsewhere, local units will continue to provide specialist medical treatment on a “hubs and spokes” model. I believe that parents have been misled on some matters.
These decisions are crucial to the future clinical outcomes and life chances of our children. The Minister has again today categorically assured me that they will be based on clinical outcomes only, and I thank him for that.
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
I shall confine my speech to issues that uniquely affect my constituents. The Safe and Sustainable consultation is fundamentally flawed. Three of the four options envisage the closure of the Southampton centre. Those options are based on wrong assumptions and inaccurate data. Let me set out the background. The consultation document states:
“All options must be able to meet the minimum requirement to collect a child by ambulance…within three hours of being contacted by the referring unit”.
It then examined “detailed access mapping” using train and road journeys—that is important—and considered how existing networks were affected. More options that did not meet the “three hours” criteria were ruled out. Bristol is included in “all viable options” because south-west Cornwall and south Wales are more than three hours away from either Southampton or Birmingham.
Unfortunately, nobody in that expert team seems to have noticed that people cannot travel by train or road from the Isle of Wight. There is a clue in the name: it is an island, separated from the mainland by the Solent. I have said before that the ferries provide lifeline services for my constituents, but in this case that is literal. The error in the data was that because we must cross the Solent by ferry, the island is more than three hours away from either Bristol or London.
In May, that was pointed out to Mr Jeremy Glyde, the programme director of the Safe and Sustainable review. A statement issued on 3 June said that the team
“based retrieval times between the island and the mainland on travel by air. This was an oversight”
because the policy is
“to retrieve children from the Isle of Wight by road and ferry”.
That is very odd, because the consultation document explicitly states:
“Air travel has not been considered because it cannot always be relied upon”.
The statement goes on to say that
“an ambulance must reach the referring hospital within 3 hours, or within 4 hours in ‘remote areas’”.
The conclusion was that
“it is sensible to measure retrieval times to the Isle of Wight against the threshold for ‘remote areas’.”
On remote areas, the consultation document states:
“Removing surgery from some centres could have a disproportionate impact on children in some remote areas because ambulances would not be able to reach the child in three hours or less”—
meaning three hours or less from Southampton in my case.
On 3 June, Mr Glyde did not say why the Isle of Wight suddenly became a “remote area” when previously it was not. I am sure it did not move without me or any of the other 130,000 residents noticing. I asked Mr Glyde to point me to the guidelines that determine when an area is designated as “remote”. He told me that it was a “subjective interpretation” and that the review board recognised that the island,
“by its very nature, is remote from the mainland”.
Of course, that is accurate, but the board should have noticed earlier. After starting the consultation and working on it for years, it suddenly struck the board that there are
“unique factors around retrieval times by ferry”.
My Glyde was very helpful. He explained:
“We have been able to generate potential scenarios that could enable the ambulance to meet the standards”.
They did so not by using the “three hours” standard set out in the consultation, but by deciding that the “four hours” will apply to the newly remote Isle of Wight. It may be possible to generate scenarios in which an ambulance from Bristol or London can get to the island in four hours. I can generate some scenarios in which I become Prime Minister. Neither possibility can be entirely ruled out, but they do not reflect what is likely to happen in real life—[Hon. Members: “No!”]
Putting aside my political future, let us examine some realities. The AA route planner shows that it takes two hours to get to the other side of the Isle of Wight, and an hour at least—
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
That the children’s heart unit at Newcastle’s Freeman hospital is cherished across the north-east is undisputed. One has only to read the coverage of the Newcastle Evening Chronicle “Keep Our Children’s Heart Unit” campaign in recent months to appreciate just how the unit has changed the lives of countless young people and families over the past decades.
Indeed, because of the pioneering work of the children’s heart unit at the Freeman, it is recognised nationally and internationally as a centre of excellence, with particular strength in quality and outcomes. The unit has also had significant investment over recent years. It is the only unit in the country able to offer all forms of heart treatment, regardless of age, under one roof, and the Freeman is recognised as having led the way in the UK in providing end-stage heart failure treatment for children.
As my right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown) said, the Freeman famously and bravely performed the UK’s first successful baby heart transplant in 1987. It has performed more than 200 child heart transplants overall, and was recently the first hospital in the world to enable a young child to survive for four months with an artificial heart, while the baby’s own heart recovered.
The quality of the work carried out at the Freeman means that young patients and their families travel to Newcastle for treatment not just from the west of Cumbria or north Yorkshire, but from as far afield as Scotland, Northern Ireland and even the Republic of Ireland.
For those reasons, I believe that the children’s heart unit at the Freeman is well-placed to continue providing its excellent, world-leading cardiac surgery services for children. Three of the four options put forward by the Safe and Sustainable review propose that that should be the case. However, I have concerns about attempts to move the debate away from the key issue at hand: ensuring that congenital cardiac services provided to children in England and Wales continue to be high quality, and therefore safe, and sustainable and deliverable. That was the intention of the Safe and Sustainable review.
Andrew Percy
I do not think any hon. Members who are fighting to save their local units are trying to move the debate away from that. I shall quote what health professionals from the North Lincolnshire and Goole NHS Foundation Trust say:
“In summary, we believe the babies, children and families of northern Lincolnshire would be largely disadvantaged…knowingly relocating a well run and safe service without providing additional advantage to our families is questionable and unnecessary.”
We are not moving the debate away from the clinical issues at all.
Catherine McKinnell
The hon. Gentleman has put his thoughts and concerns issue on the record.
I mentioned the intentions of the Safe and Sustainable review, which was instigated by national parent groups, NHS clinicians and their professional associations. Those intentions must be the primary drivers in deciding the final outcome of the review.
I am equally concerned at suggestions that the decision and outcome of the review should be stalled, or that the remit should be altered. I am not alone in expressing such concerns. The Children’s Heart Foundation argues that that would leave
“the door wide open for another Bristol Baby tragedy”.
Meanwhile, the charity Little Hearts Matter believes that the Safe and Sustainable service reconfiguration offers—
Catherine McKinnell
No, I will not.
Little Hearts Matter says:
“The Safe and Sustainable Service reconfiguration offers a monumental opportunity to ensure that every child with a heart problem has access to the best heart surgery service that this country can offer—a gold standard service.”
I urge anyone in a position of influence, including hon. Members, to support that step forward, and not to halt the process because of personal bias.
A number of hon. Members are concerned about the co-location of children’s services. However, it is important to note that during the development of the £100 million new Great North Children’s hospital at the Freeman’s sister hospital, the Royal Victoria infirmary, a deliberate decision was made to retain children’s heart services at the Freeman, aligned with the world-renowned adult heart services there.
Services that simply did not exist 20 years ago have created a new generation of adults needing care, and the service at the Freeman allows for a seamless transition into adulthood. Of course, services at the Great North Children’s hospital are available to the Freeman in a matter of minutes—throughout the review process, they have been recognised as though they are on the same site.
In conclusion, I am not asking those who will make the final decision to give special treatment to the children’s heart unit at the Freeman, or indeed to the people of Newcastle and the north-east. I am all too aware how difficult this process has been for all children’s heart units under consideration. Each is valued and each has a great story to tell. However, I am asking that the decision is made on the grounds of clinical excellence and the quality of services that are currently provided, and on those grounds alone. I urge that a decision on the future of children’s congenital cardiac services is not put off or prolonged, because the safety of babies and children in need of heart surgery should be paramount in this debate.
Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on the measured, sensible and sensitive way in which he moved his motion. There is clearly a lot of strong feeling in the Chamber today, which is understandable given the number of people potentially affected by these changes. We all know that geography in this country is an important consideration, and although a political argument can be made for having fewer centres—it might save some lives—it can also be argued that for some families, particularly those living further from theses hospitals, these proposals could cost lives, if people are unable to get to one of the hospitals.
My hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) made an extremely good point about the difficulties with moving the Southampton unit. Yes, parents will go wherever they can get the best treatment, but they prefer to go somewhere nearby. I have constituents who have moved to Poole simply because of its proximity to the Southampton unit, and I expect that families around the country with similar problems also sometimes vote with their feet by buying a home in close proximity to a unit. This point needs to be taken into account. A Mrs Owen made the point to me quite forcefully that it was one reason she and her family moved to Poole.
The chairman of Poole borough council’s health and social care overview and scrutiny committee has concerns, as do Councillor Charles Meachim and Antoinette McAaulay, who is a consultant paediatrician at Poole hospital. The latter raised concerns about the impact on the Southampton unit and pointed out that Southampton had the highest quality score for clinical care outside London and the second highest in the UK following the Kennedy review in 2010, suggesting that the children’s cardiac paediatrics service in Southampton is a safe service. She also points out that the numbers for Southampton might be wrong because since the suspension of services in Oxford, the numbers have gone up considerably from those quoted in the study.
Although I agree with the motion and think it silly to stick only with options A, B, C and D, people in my area of the country would prefer B because of the impact it would have on the Southampton centre. People in my constituency have pointed out that the option B proposal includes the centre with the highest quality score, the centre with the best surgery survival rates and the centre with the highest score for research. A strong argument can be made for retaining the Southampton unit. It has strong support from my constituents and people in Dorset, so I hope that the joint committee will consider it carefully.
Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)
Representing part of Poole, I am aware of the strong feelings there. Equally, however, I take on board the need for clinically driven decisions. Many Members are raising concerns about flaws in the proposals, so it makes a lot of sense to proceed with the motion, because whatever happens we want to be sure that the best decisions are being made. Does my hon. Friend feel that there is great uncertainty?
Mr Syms
I agree with the hon. Lady. It is important to get this right, rather than to rush. Clearly there are concerns. I know that the Minister is a sensible soul and will respond—[Laughter.] Well perhaps he was once a sensible soul. I am sure that he will respond to Members’ concerns. The important thing is that many people out there have concerns that we need to address if we are to deliver a first-rate service that our constituents feel is good for them.
Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on securing this important debate. I have the privilege to have in my constituency the hugely impressive and world-class Alder Hey children’s hospital, which I am delighted is included in all four options in the motion. I would express some concern, however, were the motion to be agreed to and were we to go beyond those four options. I hope that Alder Hey would be included in any further options that the joint committee would consider and consult on.
Alder Hey’s cardiac unit treats children with all forms of heart disease, not only in Liverpool and the wider Merseyside area, but those travelling from the wider north-west of England, north and mid-Wales and the Isle of Man. The total catchment area for children using Alder Hey’s cardiac unit covers about 7 million people, so many people already travel very long distances to use the excellent services there. Since 2006, the hospital has treated more than 4,000 patients for cardiac conditions and performed surgery on more than half of them. I spoke to the hospital this week in anticipation of today’s debate, and it expects that the concentration of surgery at Alder Hey will further increase demand, and has built that into its current plans. Alder Hey is on track to have a brand-new hospital with a children’s park. The plans are very exciting and have got a strong commitment from the local community in my constituency in West Derby. The hospital is strengthening its services. For example, it is investing in the existing team to add a sixth cardiologist and an eighth intensivist, increasing its theatre capacity to enable the delivery of 637 cases per year, and it has already achieved the minimum required activity for this operational year of 447 cases.
Members have spoken about the balance between our responsibilities to consider the national picture and our constituency responsibilities. Happily I am in a position to argue that the proposals work both in terms of national policy and for my constituents. The Children’s Heart Federation has highlighted some of the benefits of the Safe and Sustainable review’s proposals, which have been mentioned by hon. Members today: minimal cancellations and short waiting times for surgery; better outcomes from surgery; and an end to high-risk rotas in which a surgeon in a small team covering for a colleague on leave can operate all day and be on call all night several days running. As has been pointed out, these changes have been put forward by clinicians, and I would urge the House to tread with great care in jeopardising the outcome of such a clinician-led review. We must remind ourselves that the review does not propose the closure of any centres, and would instead concentrate surgery in the centres where it can be performed safely.
I finish with a broader point that the Minister might like to reflect on. This review is a good example of evidence-based policy making in the NHS. Perhaps we can have more of that as the process of NHS reform moves forward.
Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con)
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) for his incredible hard work on this issue, not just this week but over many months.
Yesterday many MPs received an e-mail from the chief executive of the Children’s Heart Federation, who is also a member of the Safe and Sustainable programme steering group. She wrote:
“'Clinicians have led these changes and we believe it is wrong that some politicians are now trying to block the process that will lead to the vital improvements in children’s care.”
I do not agree with that assessment because I agree absolutely with the aims of the review, as do many of my hon. Friends. However, I have an issue with the process of the review and what it has missed out. In the case of Leeds, there has been no formal opportunity to correct factual inaccuracies in Sir Ian Kennedy’s pre-consultation assessment report, and no impact assessment was undertaken before the four options were announced in the consultation
As my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) said, Leeds delivers what is considered a gold standard of service, and is one of only two hospitals that offer this gold standard. However, the weighting in the criteria did not take account of that at all. It would be fair to say, therefore, that I, my fellow Yorkshire, Humber and Lincolnshire MPs and the more than 500,000 fellow Yorkshiremen who handed in a petition to the Prime Minister this week have little faith in an open and transparent process that is fair for the people in the current Leeds catchment area.
Greg Mulholland
Let me too say that it is a pleasure working with my hon. Friend, but can we debunk this myth that we are talking about a review without flaws that is based on clinical guidelines? Option B, which he mentioned, does not even get us to 400 operations for some centres. In too many places the review does not even follow its own logic.
Craig Whittaker
I agree with my hon. Friend, who is absolutely right. This comes back to my basic premise, because all we are asking for is an open, honest and transparent process that will produce the desired outcomes.
Last year, one of my constituents, Miss Libby Carstairs, spent many months in Leeds hospital and underwent heart surgery several times over several months. As we know, the aims of the consultation clearly show that parents would take their child anywhere to get the best treatment when they are as poorly as Libby is and was. Under the proposals, Libby would have gone backwards and forwards several times, probably between Newcastle for surgery and Leeds for her convalescence. Currently, her care and surgery all happen in one place. As with all families at such a stressful time, it was hugely beneficial that the family could visit regularly and help in the convalescence period. Libby’s mum spent her life in that unit with her, and her grandparents played a huge role with relief and support. Libby’s being in Leeds even allowed her head teacher, from Carr Green primary school, the opportunity to visit and take messages of support from her classmates and friends. I saw first hand not only how that cheered Libby up, but how it helped to fast-track the recovery of this poorly little girl. It also without question helped Libby eventually to go home, albeit with high levels of support. Such support from family and friends would not have been possible had Libby been up and down to, say, Newcastle or Liverpool, which are many miles away.
Although the main principle of parents taking their child wherever they need to go to get the best treatment is absolutely correct, it does not take into account the loss of income to the family through not being in work, the huge cost of travelling much further distances, and the incredibly important network of support from family and friends at what is an awfully frustrating and stressful time for everyone involved—the big society at its best, as it were. I cannot imagine what it is like not to know whether one’s child is going to live or die, so I cannot begin to comprehend the full extent of the support needed and appreciated by families.
Contrary to the e-mail received yesterday, MPs do understand the process, as do the 500,000 people who have signed the petition. However, it is scandalous that Leeds fits into only one of the four options, particularly as vital information has been missed out of Sir Ian Kennedy’s assessment. To sum up, if the Government are big enough to listen to the people and amend their proposals on issues such as the NHS and jail, surely clinicians at the JCPCT should be big enough to review their plans, by listening to what 500,000 people from Yorkshire, Humberside and Lincolnshire are telling them to do.
Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)
Southampton children’s services are located at Southampton General hospital, right in the middle of my constituency. The hard work undertaken by the large numbers of people who organised the petition presented at No. 10 yesterday—I and a number of fellow Members from across south-central England managed to get ourselves very wet helping to deliver it—showed not partisan fighting on behalf of a particular unit, regardless of its quality or the service that it represents, but genuine mystification that the process appears to have dealt so peripherally with Southampton’s role in the national roll-out of services. In 2010, Sir Ian Kennedy rated Southampton as provider of the highest quality service outside London, rating it particularly highly on paediatric intensive care and support for parents, and highly on training and innovation.
That mystification as to why such a unit should feature in just one of the options in the review was compounded by an examination of the background to that review. Indeed, perhaps the explanation for why Southampton appears to have been treated so peripherally can be found in the review itself. Of course it is important that the review should be completed, that changes should be made and that judgments be made on clinical grounds. However, I would suggest that it is not on clinical grounds that anyone should have forgotten that the Isle of Wight exists. That is the province of geographers rather than clinicians. If clinicians depend on the material in a review setting out the factors that will be taken into account in their final decision, much of their power in making that decision could be overthrown by what goes into that review in the first place.
It is not a clinical decision for the review to state that Southampton has two surgeons and undertakes 231 procedures, when in fact it will have four surgeons by this summer and undertake almost 400 procedures, as a result of, among other things, its excellent collaboration with Oxford, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) mentioned earlier, but which the review appears to neglect. If such a decision is made by the review, which appears to have got so many things wrong about the background to Southampton’s excellent services, the 250,000 petitioners who signed the petition that went to No. 10 yesterday will justifiably feel let down by the process, whoever conducts it. The national health service has a long and honourable record of stitching people up for the right reasons. If as a result of the review those 250,000 people end up feeling stitched up for the wrong reasons, they will have every right to feel very aggrieved indeed.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. Just to inform the House of the procedure, I will now call the Minister. The recommendation from the Backbench Business Committee is that he speaks for about 15 minutes. However, I should remind the House that if he takes persistent interventions, that will extend the time that he spends on his feet, which will deny other Back Benchers the opportunity of speaking. The shadow Minister will be speaking towards the end of the debate.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on securing this debate on the review of children’s heart surgery services. He has a strong record of campaigning on this issue and of bringing the concerns of his constituents to the attention of the House. I also congratulate him and the other hon. Members on the motion they tabled. The Government and I wholeheartedly support its contents, and I urge other hon. Members to do so as well.
I should also like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the dedicated NHS staff who work in children’s heart services in my hon. Friend’s constituency and across the country. They do a tremendous job, for which we are all incredibly grateful, more often than not in complex and difficult circumstances.
I should like to confirm that the review is totally independent of the Government, and that it is clinically led. It is not driven by me, by other Ministers or by the Department of Health. It is therefore not appropriate for me to comment on the specific hospitals consulted during process. I do not wish to act, or to be seen to act, in a way that could influence or prejudice the process that is going on. As many hon. Members have said, this is a highly emotive issue, particularly for those whose children’s lives have been saved by the services under review. It is worth reminding ourselves why the review was conceived and planned and is now being carried out.
This is not a new issue. The provision of children’s heart surgery has been a cause for concern since the Bristol Royal infirmary inquiry in the late 1990s. Understandably, there has been considerable pressure from national parents groups and professionals to ensure that children receive the best treatment, and the sole purpose of the Safe and Sustainable review is to ensure that children with congenital heart problems receive the best possible care now and long into the future. To do that, we must be certain that the centres in which surgery takes place are as good as they can be.
Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)
The Minister will not be surprised to hear that my constituents, like all the others in Yorkshire, are in favour of Leeds, but I do not want to draw him on that. I would like him to help us in our argument by telling us what the clinical outcomes for Leeds are and how they compare with other centres. In particular, will he confirm that they are all safe?
Mr Burns
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that intervention. With regard to Leeds teaching hospital, he will know that this is a complex issue. There are 36 different surgical procedures listed on the central cardiac audit database, but the three most relevant ones in the context of his question are those that deal with atrioventricular septal defect, arterial switch and Fallot’s tetralogy. Over the past six years, 304 operations have taken place involving those three specialties. Sadly, the number of patients who died within 30 days was 12, and 18 died within one year. The results of surgery in all units are good, with no significant divergence. The issue, however, is the future. We need to prepare for units that can deal with these highly complex procedures and the intense technology needed, and provide the qualified doctors and nurses involved, in order to keep up with professional and public expectations of the high quality of care required. This is not so much about today’s figures as about how we meet the challenges of the future to provide the finest and safest possible care in this deeply complex area of medical treatment.
The consensus among professional associations is that there should be no fewer than four congenital surgeons in a centre, each performing between 100 and 125 procedures every year, for a centre to be optimally staffed. Over the past few years, the outcomes for the services have remained good, as the figures that I have just given to my right hon. Friend illustrate, but there have been several warning signs that the current arrangements are fragile. For many years, professionals and national children’s charities, including the Children’s Heart Federation and the British Heart Foundation, have urged the NHS to review services for children with congenital heart disease. They have consistently raised serious concerns about the risks posed by the unsustainable and sub-optimal nature of smaller surgical centres.
Many of the 150 types of operation undertaken by these dedicated teams are among the most complex, challenging and technically demanding areas of surgery. Success requires intricate surgery on hearts often no bigger than a walnut, coupled with finely balanced judgments drawn from a combination of advancing science, personal experience and compassion. It involves a range of highly trained individual team members—before, during and after the operation.
The risks posed by the complex nature of heart surgery include not just possible death after surgery, but lifelong complications such as brain damage and other disabilities. The judgments of any expert medical team caring for a particular child therefore have a direct and long-lasting impact not only the future of each vulnerable child, but on that of their families.
There is also the issue of recruitment. The fact is that smaller centres have problems with recruiting and retaining the very best surgeons. There is a risk that those working in smaller centres will find themselves working in isolation and in units that are not as up-to-date with techniques and clinical practice as the larger ones are.
Greg Mulholland
We all understand the premise of the review about the need to move to larger centres, but does the Minister not understand—I am not trying to draw him—the real concern when Leeds is performing 370 procedures a year and Newcastle, a smaller unit, performed only 255 last year, yet Newcastle is in all four options and Leeds only in one?
Mr Burns
I fully appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s point, but I hope that he will appreciate that he is now trying to draw me into a discussion on the merits of Leeds as against Newcastle. As I said earlier, it is inappropriate for me as a Minister to do that. However, it is a point that the hon. Gentleman, my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey and others can make more than adequately to the joint committee, which will be able to determine the merits of the argument prior to reaching a decision. I urge the hon. Gentleman to understand how inappropriate it would be for me to go down the route of arguing the merits or demerits of one area or another.
Smaller centres struggle to train and mentor junior surgeons, making these units less attractive to the senior surgeons of tomorrow and making it difficult to provide a safe 24-hour service. We must ensure that our surgeons and their teams are well supported. They need opportunities to develop their experience as they become increasingly expert in these intricate and complex procedures. We must ensure that all the hospitals that provide heart surgery for children can also provide care within safe medical rotas.
No parent would wish the care of their child to be entrusted to a surgeon who, though an excellent doctor, is overly tired because they have had to work around the clock without any peer support. This means that to reduce the risk of surgery in sick children and to improve their long-term outcomes, we must focus our surgical expertise in larger centres. The need has become ever more pressing with the increasing complexity of treatment.
As hon. Members will know, the national review is known as the Safe and Sustainable review. Its aim is to ensure that children’s heart services deliver the very highest standard of care. The NHS must use its skills and resources collectively to gain the best outcomes for patients. As I stated at the beginning of my speech, in line with the Government’s entire approach to the NHS, this review is both independent and clinically led. May I reassure hon. Members that the objective of the review is not to close children’s heart centres? Far from it. While surgery may cease in some centres, they will continue to provide specialist, non-interventional services for their local population.
Indeed, the review proposes to extend local care further, supported by the professional associations that support the increased clinical expertise across England. This wider support is crucial. Surgery is usually a single, short episode in what is often a lifelong relationship with specialist congenital heart services. The aim is to improve those services as a whole and to ensure that as much non-surgical care as possible is delivered as close to the child’s home as possible through the development of local congenital heart networks. These will enable children to be safely and expertly cared for nearer to home in the longer term.
Given the complexity of the issues for consideration, the NHS has held a four-month, rather than the usual three-month, consultation. Hon. Members should be reassured that the consultation process has been impressive in its scope, inclusiveness and transparency.
Julian Smith
I thank the Minister. Will he comment on the lack of translation of certain consultation documents, which has affected many communities, particularly in and around the Leeds area?
Mr Burns
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that issue, and I will address it later in my speech.
No decision has yet been made about which centres should continue to undertake surgery. That decision will be made only after the responses to the consultation have been properly and fully considered. The chair of the joint committee of primary care trusts, Sir Neil McKay, has made it clear that it is a genuine consultation and that all viable proposals will be considered, and I agree with that. There has been no pre-determination of the number of centres that will be selected. Rather, the review remains flexible and open-minded as to the final number and is happy to listen to all options that would produce the excellent clinical outcomes for our children that we desire.
As I have said however, this review is being driven by a powerful clinical imperative. The trend in children’s heart care is towards increasingly complex surgery on ever-smaller babies. That requires surgical teams that are large enough to provide sufficient exposure to complex cases, so that surgeons and their teams can maintain and develop their specialist skills. Larger teams also provide the capacity to train and mentor the next generation of surgeons. In recent years, other countries have recognised the clinical necessity of larger surgical units and have reconfigured their services along the lines proposed by the Safe and Sustainable proposals. Here in the United Kingdom, there are successful precedents for centralisation. In the past 15 years, the congenital cardiac services in Cardiff and Edinburgh have ceased heart surgery on children, as they recognised that their centres were just too small to be sustainable.
I also want to reassure Members about the integrity of the process that was followed in developing the options for consultation. In the past, concerns have been put to me in this House about mistakes in the assessment process, particularly relating to the Leeds service, and Members have referred to that again today. I understand that since our last debate in February or March of this year the chair of the joint committee, Sir Neil McKay, has written to the chief executive of the trust in Leeds to explain why mistakes have not been made in relation to the Leeds centre.
Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) in his recent intervention, have also raised the issue of documents not being made available in a sufficiently wide range of languages, thereby excluding those who speak those languages from the consultation process. The relevant documents have for several weeks been available in 10 different languages, including Urdu, Arabic, Farsi and Punjabi. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) shakes her head, but I assure her that they have been available for several weeks, although I accept that they were not available from the first day of the review. That may be the point the hon. Lady was seeking to make, and I agree with her if she thinks they should have been from the first day. We cannot change the fact that they were not available from then, however, but they have been available from, I believe, 20 May, and the consultation process runs until 1 July, which gives sufficient time for people who need to access the documents in those languages to do so and to be able to input their views.
I hope to be able to reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) on retrieval times and access times from the Isle of Wight, given its unique geographical situation. It is my understanding that the joint committee of primary care trusts has agreed that Southampton University Hospitals NHS Trust has provided evidence on this issue that requires further consideration and has invited the trust to develop a detailed case regarding retrievals from the Isle of Wight, which the committee will consider as part of the evidence to determine the optimum reconfiguration.
Several Members raised the issue of the inclusion of black and minority ethnic communities in the consultation process. There have been a number of workshops and focus groups, many of which have been aimed specifically at the BME communities. Almost 2,000 community groups and organisations that have an interest in BME issues have been contacted and invited to take part in the proceedings. Public meetings have been arranged, particularly in Leeds, specifically for the Asian population of Yorkshire in partnership with representatives of local BME groups. The Leeds meeting is on 29 June, there is a meeting planned for Bradford on 30 June and a further meeting is planned for Kirklees. I hope that hon. Members who represent parts of Yorkshire and the surrounding catchment areas will be assured by that.
To abide by your rules, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will now conclude by saying that I am confident about the consultation. Everyone will accept that all consultations of this nature can be difficult, when tough decisions have to be taken. The decisions have to be taken for the right reasons, based on clinical evidence about the best way to improve and enhance care and the quality of care for patients. That is particularly true in this case because more often than not the patients are very young children with very complex needs—that is what makes this issue so difficult.
Let me reiterate that no decisions have been taken or will be taken until the joint committee has had an opportunity to consider the independent analysis of the consultation responses, reports from any local overview and scrutiny committees and a health impact assessment. Throughout, it will remain open-minded and flexible as to the number of centres. The only important consideration will be the sustainability of clinical excellence at the centres chosen. I doubt whether this is the case, but if any hon. Members have not taken part in the consultation I urge them to do so. I also urge them to ensure that their constituents and organisations in their constituencies with an interest in this matter take part in the consultation if they have not already done so, so that the committee can have the widest range of views, information and opinion before reaching what will, in any circumstances, be difficult decisions.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow the Minister, who was very careful in setting out how he is attempting to ensure that this process proceeds in an appropriate way. I was pleased by his comments about the consultation being genuine and about the review being flexible, open-minded and not limited to a particular set or number of outcomes. His contribution was very reassuring and I thank him for that.
I would like to use as my reference point a lady who attended a meeting in Scunthorpe, at the Wortley House hotel, for people who have used the Leeds children’s heart unit’s services in recent years. Her use of the service goes back to when it was in Killingbeck hospital a long time ago before it moved to Leeds General infirmary in 1997. At that point, as has been pointed out, all children’s services were located in one area to great positive effect for the children of the Yorkshire and the Humber region. What she said to the people from Leeds at that consultation was that she really did not mind where the heart surgery locations were, but that she wanted the very best to be delivered for children in need so that they could access the best and most excellent services. She went on to say that her experience of the Leeds service was such as to give her assurance that it would meet those needs. She was particularly concerned that proper outreach services should remain in any future configuration. Her daughter was expecting another child and was already engaged, in relation to her pregnancy, with service support through Leeds, which was going to make it less likely that there would be significant cardiac problems that could not be dealt with at the appropriate time and with appropriate effectiveness.
In the Scunthorpe area, we tend to be on the periphery of things, so we always have to travel, in this case to Leeds. The weather conditions at the end of last year made it difficult to travel to and from Scunthorpe, and a two-hour journey with unwell youngsters would have led to great concern.
We need to make sure that there are proper outreach services to give support in future and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) said earlier, we must recognise that people should have equality of access to excellence wherever they are in the country. That is important for my constituents.
Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that it seems a little unfortunate that the options in the consultation would not include the continuation of services at both Leeds and the Freeman hospital in Newcastle? That was deeply upsetting for parents in the communities that both hospitals serve. There is real concern that the excellent heart and lung transplant service at the Freeman hospital could be jeopardised.
Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)
It is good to be working with the hon. Gentleman on this issue, but does he agree that there is a fundamental problem? Newcastle performs only 255 procedures, so it needs the Leeds unit to close to reach the 400 figure specified in the review, whereas Leeds can stand on its own. Together, we have to challenge that premise, because the European regulations state that 250 procedures is perfectly safe. The Newcastle unit is safe and the Leeds unit is safe; they are both excellent. Together, we have to challenge the review.
Nic Dakin
I thank the hon. Gentleman for those comments. Leeds delivered 316 cardiac operations in 2009-10 and 372 in 2010-11, so the numbers meet the criteria fairly closely.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on securing the debate. The Minister will have heard from his comments that there is still not total confidence in the integrity and transparency of the review. I feel that the Minister has helped to allay those fears and I am reassured by his saying that the review will be open, genuine and flexible. I thank him for putting that message across so strongly. The hon. Member for Pudsey clearly outlined the concerns, especially the need properly to engage with the ethnic minority community. Although it sounds as though steps have been taken latterly, they ought to have been taken at the beginning of the process, given the fact that young people in that community have a higher incidence of cardiac issues than the rest of the population.
I hope that the people conducting the review will hear the excellent comments that have been made by Members on both sides of the House, and from all regions of the country, during the debate, and that they will think outside the box, as the hon. Members for Pudsey and for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) said earlier. We need to be flexible. We do not need to compromise on clinical excellence or clinical outcomes for children, but we should recognise the need for equality of access to excellence, as my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds East said. I hope that our debate will be part of the consultation process that the Minister assures us is genuine, listening and ongoing, and that it will assist us in reaching an outcome that we can all applaud.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. I am sure that hon. Members will show time discipline, so that we can get as many of them in as we possibly can.
George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con)
I should like briefly to place on the record my grateful thanks to the 18 highly qualified consultants from Portsmouth who recently wrote to me to express their support for the Southampton unit. As time is short, rather than repeating much of what has been already said, I should like to concentrate solely on one element of the review: retrieval times and their effect on the volume gateway.
The number of operations that a centre undertakes is clearly important to generate wide experience across a team and maximise the accumulated wisdom in any unit and, crucially, its support services. That seems entirely logical and sensible, and it is, of course, at the very centre of the entire review, but the available volume is crucially affected by one absolutely critical variable: the distances of emergency admissions, or retrieval, as it is known.
The paediatric heart unit closest to my constituency is in Southampton—thus, of course, it has been the focus of my attention. I absolutely agree with the point made by many hon. Members that we should not let our local sympathies cloud our judgment on what is a national matter, and I hope I have not done so. It is worth pointing out to hon. Members that for many constituents in Meon Valley, my constituency, the reality is that the loss of the Southampton unit would not be a huge disadvantage. The change would result in their becoming clients of the Evelina children’s hospital at Guy’s and St Thomas’s—hardly a poor alternative for them—but we should notice that the insistence that a three-hour, road-based retrieval time for emergency admissions should act as part of the gateway excludes certain parts of the south-west and south Wales from Southampton’s potential catchment. Initially and puzzlingly, as we have also heard, the Isle of Wight was also excluded, but that seems to have been sorted out, for which we are all grateful.
Why is this important? Simply because Southampton has the second highest score for quality in the country at 513 points, with the Evelina at the top of the list with 535 points. Although I genuinely do not believe that it is the place of elected politicians to wade in every time that the NHS wants to reconfigure local services, I am concerned that the review is likely to result in the loss of one of the very best heart units in the country.
We have been told that quality was presumed to be the overall driver of the review and that quality trumped geographical proximity and convenience. So the decision to include the Southampton unit, which is rated second in the country for quality, in only one option must be regarded as running counter to the core principles of the decision-making process. I fear that the panel may choose to lose one of the highest-quality options available in favour of a lower-quality alternative, for reasons that do not necessarily stand up when looked at closely.
I believe that those who are tasked with making the decision need to satisfy themselves that the overall three-hour road retrieval criterion is truly as crucial as it seems. Can it really be right that, in a review driven at its core by quality, the population-level risk of closing the second highest-rated paediatric cardiac surgical unit in the country is truly outweighed by a possibly longer-than-three-hour retrieval for a small number of potential patients? Only the joint committee of primary care trusts can make that judgment, and I leave it to do so. I simply ask that it considers that key variable and wish it the very best in making a decision that, although entirely necessary, is bound to upset many people.
Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con)
I will try to keep my remarks as brief as possible to allow other hon. Members to have their say. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew), who secured the debate, and all the other Members who have supported him. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing the subject to be debated in the main Chamber.
I shall speak in favour of the motion. I was first contacted about the issue shortly after the election, and I should like to thank in particular the Russell family in Loughborough for bringing it to my attention. The review is called Safe and Sustainable for a good reason, and I entirely endorse the statement that all hon. Members probably received from the Little Hearts Matter campaign that the review offers a monumental opportunity to ensure that every child with a heart problem has access to the best heart surgery service that this country can offer. I am sure that that is what we all want.
I am, however, concerned by a few comments made by Opposition Members and in a recent article in The Times, which seemed to question why MPs felt the need to defend their local services whenever a reconfiguration is suggested. That is a misunderstanding of the role of 21st century Members of Parliament, however long ago they were elected. We are here to speak up on behalf of our constituents. I am sure that all hon. Members here today and those who cannot be here have been contacted by constituents who are concerned about their access or that of their children and grandchildren—those born and not yet born—to heart surgery should the need arise. It is absolutely our duty to stand up for that and to ask whether the review and the options are right. However, I am very pleased that, as a Member of Parliament, I am not the one making the final decisions.
As I said, I support option A, as do my right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) and the hon. Member for Leicester South (Jon Ashworth). I am sure that, although the hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) will focus on the national perspective, she will manage to get in a reference to Glenfield hospital somewhere in her concluding remarks. That hospital serves my constituents extremely well and I am in awe and admiration of those who work there—the surgeons, those who run intensive care units, all the nurses, and the many staff who packed the Walkers stadium for two consultation meetings last Thursday. Option A is the highest scoring option and the most cost-effective.
In the time available I want to talk about a topic that the hon. Member for Leicester South touched on—the ECMO services at Glenfield hospital. The hospital treated many of the patients who had swine flu over the winter, and the national leaders of the NHS said that the nation owed Leicester a debt of gratitude for the work that it had done with ECMO. My worry about the review—if option A were successful, I would not have this worry—is that we have a clinically excellent service in ECMO and I do not want to see that jeopardised in any way. As has been said, if the children’s ECMO service is moved, that will inevitably have an impact on the adult ECMO services. We should be very careful in this country about not respecting such clinically excellent services. We should allow them to continue in places where the staff are already well trained and well versed and offer a service of national importance.
My final point, which the Minister addressed—I am grateful to him—is about translation. There are a large number of ethnic minority people in Leicester and in my constituency of Loughborough. My right hon. Friend the Minister generously acknowledged the fact that it would have been helpful if the documents had been translated earlier. The question posed by hon. Members in the debate is whether that impacts on the fairness of the review and the way the process has been carried out. That is clearly for others to judge. It will be interesting to see how many people reply using documents that have been translated.
The timeline in the consultation document shows that the process has been going on for a long time, so it should not have been beyond the wit of man or of the review committee to realise that many of the services are located in areas where there are high ethnic minority populations, and that those documents should have been translated early enough to make sure that members of those populations could play their full part in making their views heard.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. If hon. Members speak for just under four minutes, everyone will get in.
Mr Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)
I begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew). There have been some interesting moments in the past week and I know he has enjoyed every minute of it.
I want to be clear from the outset that I have never called and am not calling for the Safe and Sustainable review to be stopped or even paused. The Children’s Heart Federation said to me this week, as it said to many Members:
“We urge MPs countrywide to support the need for change and fight for the highest quality national children’s heart service.”
I could not agree more and I could not have put it better myself. In the words of Sir Ian Kennedy, whom Members know well:
“Mediocrity must not be our benchmark for the future.”
Spot on, again.
On that point, let me take head-on the inevitable comments in some of today’s newspapers. Intellectually the case for change is compelling and, to be clear, I am not co-sponsoring today’s debate out of political or personal interest. For me, today is about getting us back to a point where the focus of the review is on quality. I recognise 100% that, since the recommendations from the Bristol inquiry were published a decade ago, professional bodies and patient groups involved in children’s heart care have been united in pressing for changes in the organisation of services to drive up the quality of treatment.
The Safe and Sustainable review states its main aim as providing
“excellent care for children with congenital heart disease”.
I have yet to meet one person who disagrees with that statement, but I have met many who take issue with how we are trying to get there. Each speaker this afternoon has in mind the children’s heart centre serving their constituents and many of us, myself included, will no doubt make points in support of the option containing their unit. That is fair enough. As my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan) said, we are MPs and would not be representing our constituents if we did anything less.
However, for me it is not all about my backyard. The points I have to make about Southampton have a wider purpose and illustrate the bigger picture. During the past few months, Members from across the House have listened to one another speak on the subject and heard the arguments ring one or two bells. For me, that moment came in the Adjournment debate that my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey secured in March. That is what brought us together. As so often happens in this House, disparate parts come together to form something much bigger.
It is true that some campaigns in other parts of the country have been bigger and more muscular than others. It is also true that the campaign based around the so-called option B, which is to retain children’s heart surgery at Southampton, has been enormous by any measure. Its momentum flows directly from the fact that 17 weeks ago, when the options were published, the second-best children’s heart unit in the country was given only a one-in-four chance of survival. I want to be crystal clear that the team from Southampton supported the Safe and Sustainable review taking place and, on balance, still does, but it was shocked to the core to learn that a process that is about quality could put one of the world’s top centres on such a sticky wicket.
This week I received the final submission from the Hampshire health overview and scrutiny committee to the joint committee of primary care trusts. The opening paragraph does not pull any punches:
“Given that it has taken over a decade to reach this point, our observation is that the overarching objectives of this exercise—to improve the quality of these services for children—has been lost in an adversarial and divisive consultation exercise which has focused predominantly on defending the process and not on delivering the desired outcome.”
My fear is that Sir Ian Kennedy’s feared “mediocrity” is exactly the outcome that we are in danger of delivering unless those leading the process change their focus. The scrutiny committee also said:
“The responses to issues raised by clinicians, parents and other stakeholders seem to reflect a preoccupation by those driving ‘Safe and Sustainable’ with defending the process against legal challenge rather than securing the prize of better quality care for these patients. This is not acceptable or in the interests of the patients affected.”
That puts it very well.
The Isle of Wight factor is fast moving centre stage in the Southampton campaign. My hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) spoke with his usual force on the subject, so there is no need to say any more on it, other than to say that it is not too late in this regard and that the Safe and Sustainable team is listening carefully to the island’s arguments.
Finally, I will be supporting the motion because it clearly welcomes the aim of sustaining the provision of services based around quality. Above all—this is the key part that we worked so hard to include in the motion—I support the call for the joint committee not to restrict itself to the four options outlined in the review document. A case can be made for options A, B, C or D, but it can also be made for E and F. I ask it to bear that in mind as it goes forward to the end of the process on 1 July.
Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con)
I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on his leadership in securing the debate. I open my remarks by paying tribute to Oxford’s paediatric cardiac team, including Professor Steve Westaby. The team have saved countless lives and have the complete confidence of the patients and families who have asked me to speak up for them today. I also pay tribute to the Young Hearts charity, which has stood up for children with congenital heart disease and their families in Oxfordshire and presented a petition, which I am holding in my hands, with thousands of signatures to the Prime Minister in his constituency this month. They have done much to assure services in Oxfordshire.
Few would take issue with the basic aims of the Safe and Sustainable review; who does not want to improve outcomes for children with congenital heart disease? That is not where the concerns lie. The review works on a simple premise: more surgeons doing more surgeries will achieve better outcomes for more patients. That makes perfect sense, but in this instance, as the motion states, size is not everything. Although the simple centralisation of specialist services is backed by clinical evidence, some clinicians in Oxford, Southampton and elsewhere are of the opinion that it draws on too narrow an evidentiary base and that matters such as the co-location of services, assessed travel and population projections must also be considered.
On co-location, for example, a 2008 Department of Health report states that cardiac surgery requires the absolute co-location of paediatric cardiology, paediatric critical care, specialist paediatric anaesthetics, specialist paediatric surgery and specialist paediatric ear, nose and throat services. Even though Safe and Sustainable states that the co-location of those services should be mandatory, it is not clear how the four proposed options meet the standards of the framework of critical interdependencies or, for that matter, the standards of Safe and Sustainable itself. I hope that the Minister will note those grave concerns, which patient groups, families and clinicians have expressed, and will ensure that the joint committee of primary care trusts takes the process forward, clarifying the issue of the co-location of service and properly and transparently communicating that clarification to those groups.
A child with congenital heart disease does not exist in isolation. He or she is cared for tirelessly by family members who have to make terrifying treatment decisions, and by siblings who have to accept that home life is on hold while parents go to and from hospital and everyone concentrates only on keeping that child alive. That is what parents do for their children. It is what they sacrifice and do without hesitation, because nothing matters more than bringing that child home again, happy and healthy, so that everything can get back to normal. No matter how freely they give that care, however, caring for a child with congenital heart disease puts massive stresses on parents and siblings, and the outcome of the review should also try to relieve that pressure, if at all possible.
That is not just a moral argument; paediatric patient outcomes improve when carers cope better. I know that Ministers believe that the best possible surgical outcome is the best way to help families, but families who come to see me are worried that they will not be able to get to the hospital for the surgery in the first place; that there will be longer waiting lists; that they will not have continuous care under surgeons whom they can trust with their child’s life; that staff at units that close will not be able to move to those that scale up; that we will lose dedicated people from the NHS; and that there will be a shortfall in service while new staff are trained up. All those concerns are just as valid and significant as ensuring that the surgeon has the necessary skill once he gets the patient on to the operating table.
The irony is that, while the Safe and Sustainable options are causing that concern, Oxford and Southampton already have an option that is working as we speak. The south of England congenital heart network offers the quality guarantees of an increase in clinical team size and patient base that Safe and Sustainable seeks, while creating and retaining the continuity of care and patient access that local clinicians and patients fear losing. That network was developed and is led by clinical teams at Oxford and Southampton; it has five congenital heart surgeons and nine consultant paediatric cardiologists; and it is the first time that two teaching hospitals have collaborated to provide joint tertiary clinical service.
That is exactly the kind of networking arrangement that Safe and Sustainable aspires to create, but the network puts the patient first, not the surgeon. It makes the best use of existing services but does not require extensive restructuring of human or physical resources; it addresses the problems of waiting times, travel times and co-location which Safe and Sustainable has failed to address; and, most importantly, it has been tried and tested for more than a year.
There is a risk that Safe and Sustainable will be seen as a top-down, inherited review, so a locally innovative system such as that network, which is supported by local heart groups, supported by local clinicians and clinically driven, is something that the Government should seek to support.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
In view of the time, I will be as brief as possible. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) for initiating this debate, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Mr Brine), who has provided much sound advice and support as we have brought this case to the House.
Two issues about the calculation of quality have come to my attention through my constituents Joanne Diaper and Richard Maguire. Southampton scored extremely well, but I am concerned about the differences between the various hospitals and how they have scored. If there is a range of difference of up to 20% on outcomes, I am concerned that the review could institutionalise mediocrity, not excellence.
There is consensus throughout the medical world that, as the Children’s Heart Foundation chief executive says,
“the majority of parents recognise that paediatric cardiac surgery is a specialist service,”
and that there will need to be some rationalisation nationally. She goes on to say that parents
“support the concept of larger but fewer centres of excellence”—
not of centres that are quite good but could become better over time. Given the complexity of the procedures that need to be undertaken, it behoves those reviewing the decision to note excellence and to embed it in future provision. We need to drive up standards in areas that do not have excellence.
Some clinical experts may move to the other side of the country, or perhaps to another country altogether. Most parents of chronically sick children with conditions that can be treated only by two or three specialists will travel any distance because they want to know that they have the best chance of having their children’s lives extended. The motion makes a sensible case in recognising the need for partnerships, and I welcome the partnership that exists between Southampton and Oxford.
It was announced in the Safe and Sustainable pre-consultation business case that 400 surgical procedures constituted a minimum threshold, but the mix could be extended to include surgery on adults as well as children. It is vital to look at what is clinically the right thing to do instead of imposing a threshold that seems convenient but does not do justice to the skills that exist in individual hospitals.
In the interests of time, I will now conclude my remarks to allow some of my colleagues to make, I hope, some different points.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
I will try to be brief to allow as many of my colleagues as possible to speak.
I do not want to take up too much time in defending the case for Leeds because that has been done exceptionally well by many others. Like me, a good number of the Leeds MPs who now occupy this place were city councillors there, including my hon. Friends the Members for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) and for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) and the hon. Member for Leeds East (Mr Mudie)—a distinguished leader of Leeds council who was very much involved in achieving our aim of having the children’s hospital all in one place. As Leeds councillors, we had personal experience of this matter when one of our colleagues died of heart disease in his early thirties. He was from the black and minority ethnic community, which makes up 23% of the population of Leeds. Sadly, that community has inherent heart problems. That has been overlooked, and it needs to be given weight in the review.
We have heard about many of the flaws in the review. The Minister rightly says that he does not have any influence over the review, which is independent, and as individual MPs we probably do not have much influence over it either. What we do have, however, is this place. Twenty-four hours ago, we were knocking nine bells out of each other. It was raucous and it was fun; we made some serious points and we were having a go. Today, from across the Chamber, some very serious speeches have been made. No matter which side of the House we are on, politics does not come into it. This House is speaking with one voice, and that voice should be heard by the people carrying out the review.
When Members of a House such as ours, which can be so confrontational, all come together, that shows the real power of our parliamentary democracy. Although the Minister, and we as individuals, may not have any direct influence on this process, it would be extremely foolish for the people involved not to take note that we will almost certainly not divide on the motion and that we all support it, including the Minister himself and the Government. My constituents are always asking whether we can work together, and we can. Everyone has come together to say that the House of Commons says that the review needs to be looked at again and other options need to be developed. That is a powerful message that I want to go forth to the people who are carrying out the review.
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)
I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on securing this debate. I thank the Minister for his important comments on, and support for, the motion.
I feel strongly that there should be a change in the configuration of children’s cardiac surgery, but it must create the right configuration. We want the correct answer to the question, and we want the review team to listen to all the arguments and make its decision based on the best possible evidence. I argue strongly, representing as I do part of the city of Southampton, that when we are looking at the important issue of children’s cardiac surgery, we must base our decision on quality.
I have been in regular contact with a constituent of mine, Mr Jim Monro, whose name will be familiar to all Members who have investigated this matter because he is one of the country’s most eminent cardiac surgeons. He is now retired. He first conducted a review into children’s cardiac surgery after the tragedies in Bristol in the 1990s. He feels strongly that he has seen this matter kicked into the long grass for too long. We must crack on and ensure that the review is completed. However, it must take into account the best available evidence and come up with the right outcome. None of us wishes to see a recurrence of the dreadful tragedies in Bristol. That is where the roots of the review lie.
Although I support the need for the review, I do not endorse the process, nor the recommendations in their entirety. I question three elements in particular. Fundamentally, the review must be about quality. We have to ensure that the best outcomes are achieved for the very sickest babies and children. However, the Southampton unit, which has a superb record of outcomes, finds itself in only one option—option B, the so-called quality option. I cannot believe that that is right for one of the highest performing units in the country. It carries out difficult procedures, does not cherry-pick cases where the best outcomes are likely, has proved that it can work collaboratively with Oxford, is widely acknowledged to be one of the best units in the country, and already has three surgeons, with a fourth starting shortly. I have heard colleagues describe it as a perverse outcome that one of the country’s top performing units is included in only one option, in which postcode matters more than the life chances of the sickest babies.
Secondly, and I will not rehearse this argument at great length, there is the additional complication of the Isle of Wight. My hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) has informed us of that issue clearly. People from Southampton want an answer to that question. Six weeks ago at a consultation meeting, they were promised that more information would be forthcoming from the review team about how significant the Isle of Wight factor was. We are still waiting.
Thirdly, the manner in which the consultation is being conducted has created an adversarial climate in which cardiac unit is put against cardiac unit and surgeon is put against surgeon. I feared that today we would see MP against MP, but we have not. As my hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke) said, this has been a collaborative debate that has picked up on the strengths of each case.
I welcome the spirit in which this House has responded to the motion.
Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)
Like many Members, I have a local heart unit that I shall seek to defend. However, before discussing the merits of retaining the Leeds unit, it is important to acknowledge the wider context of the debate.
I strongly believe that the Safe and Sustainable review is a necessary and genuine exercise. Its aim is to ensure that the highest possible level of surgical care is provided to each and every affected child, regardless of where they live. There is no doubt that the case for change is medically accepted. Nevertheless, I believe that decisions over the potential closure of local health services cannot and should not be taken lightly. In the light of the huge amount of evidence behind the motion, I urge the review’s steering group to take as much time as possible in considering the performance, locality, capacity and strength of each unit, among other factors.
On the basis of those four criteria, I strongly believe that closing the Leeds unit would be a huge mistake. The first and most important factor is performance. Leeds General infirmary is at the forefront of work on cardiac conditions. All the relevant reviews and statistics highlight its record of excellence in providing safe and high-quality children’s heart surgery. An important contributing factor in that excellence is the centralisation of the whole children’s services operation at the site in Leeds. However, the review document contains discrepancies when it comes to the definition of co-location of services. To me, co-location means all children’s services operating on a single site, and Leeds is one of only two hospitals cited in the review that offer that gold standard.
The second principle is locality. The unit is within two hours’ travel time for nearly 14 million people, including 5.5 million in the Yorkshire and the Humber area. In such highly populated areas, surely the focus should be on delivering services to the people and delivering them to the greatest area of need, not vice versa. In my view, the location of the unit and the huge number of children whom it serves make its continued existence imperative.
The review document states that parents need not accompany their children. I have two young children myself. What parents would not want to accompany their children in such difficult circumstances? Sadly, however, that is not always possible. There are child care arrangements to be made, and work issues and transport links to be considered. The stress of all that is extremely disturbing for all families in such circumstances. I realise that that applies to all the centres, not just Leeds, but I believe that we must take account of the core principles: the need to deliver services to the people, and the need to provide easy access for as many as possible. That means locating services in highly populated areas with good transport links and travel times. Birmingham and Liverpool have been included in every option in the review, and rightly so, but why has Leeds not been identified in the same way on the basis of those core principles?
Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)
The review document is called “Safe and Sustainable”, and that is absolutely the right title for it. It is worth repeating what has been said by every speaker today, and by the clinical leadership of the review: this is about saving lives, not about saving money. We must bear in mind the link between scale and quality and between quality and safety. The “scale” factor applies to the number of procedures per surgeon per year and to the number of surgeons per unit. The challenge was summed up best by the statement from the Royal College of Surgeons, to which the right hon. Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) referred, that although the country has the right number of surgeons carrying out these complex operations, they are too thinly spread. Change is clearly needed.
Coincidentally, in the last three weeks my family has had occasion to rely on the paediatric intensive care units and surgery at Southampton General hospital, in the constituency of the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead), where we benefited from outstanding care. This was not heart surgery, but the experience gave me plenty of cause to reflect on the value of not just convenience and location but, above all, quality of care. In such circumstances, families will do what they have to do, although it may be very difficult, and they will find a way of securing care of the highest quality. The experience also taught me something about the interconnection between services.
All the criteria set out in the review document have a role to play, but in my view the most important criterion of all must be quality, and I do not think that that comes across as much as it should in the review. How can it, given that the centre that is ranked second out of the 11 in the country for quality appears in only one of the four options? The question also arises, in the context of Southampton General hospital, of whether—given the role of scale and quality—sufficient consideration has been given to the most recent trends since the suspension of paediatric cardiac surgery at the John Radcliffe hospital.
Other factors have also not been given sufficient weight. First, there is the requirement for co-location of paediatric surgery with other essential services for children. Secondly, there is the impact on paediatric intensive care units, paediatric intensive care retrieval, and the other networks mentioned by the right hon. Member for Oxford East. Thirdly, there are the implications for services that provide longer-lasting care for people with cardiac conditions from birth to adulthood.
Our objective must not be to stall or jam the process, because there is a need to reduce the number of centres. We must avoid the politician’s tendency to say that of course we agree with the general principles of the review, except in the particular circumstances that apply to our own constituency. I hope I have not done that, but I do think that Southampton has a particularly strong case based on the excellence of its clinical record. I strongly support the drive for us not to be restricted only to the four options in the review, considering the additional evidence that has come to light during its course.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
To resume his seat at 3.32 pm, I call Mr Percy.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
Outrageous, Mr Deputy Speaker! But obviously accepted.
I associate myself with many of the comments of my fellow Yorkshire and the Humber MPs, particularly my near neighbour the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin). I want to mention a couple of issues raised by our local health trust, which is opposing anything other than option D very strongly. Indeed, North Lincolnshire council’s scrutiny committee met to discuss the matter on Tuesday and similarly supports that option, which would help to maintain the Leeds unit. That is not simply because it is our local centre. My constituents have to travel a considerable distance to get to Leeds, as it is not exactly next door. It is okay for some of us, but it is quite some distance for my constituents over in Brigg, in particular.
My constituents accept the regionalisation of health services when it is of proven benefit. That is so in the case of adult cardiac services, which are currently provided in Hull, and the same applies to children’s cardiac services. However, if we are to go down the route of regionalisation and big centres, it seems sensible to put services where the population is rather than try to move the population to where the clinicians are.
I wish to quote a couple of points that my local health trust has made. It has stated:
“Leeds has the largest population centre and therefore it is most sensible to ask fewer patients to travel the least distance”.
As I said earlier, the conclusion of the North Lincolnshire and Goole Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust was that it believed babies, children and families in North Lincolnshire would largely be disadvantaged in their access by the proposed changes.
I am aware of the very short time available, so I cannot say most of what I would have liked to say, but my final point is that under the proposals we could end up in the rather odd situation that some of my constituents could be served by one centre and others by another. Given that they are all in the same health trust area, that could mean different services being provided to different constituents.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
To speak for 10 minutes, I call the shadow Minister, Liz Kendall.
Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab)
It is a real privilege to take part in today’s debate, and to follow the thoughtful, moving and at times passionate speeches of Members of all parties. I thank the Backbench Business Committee, and I particularly thank the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) for securing the debate.
Like the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), I wear two hats today. As the Member for Leicester West, home of Glenfield hospital’s superb congenital heart centre, I know how important the review of children’s heart surgery is for my constituents, as it is for those of each of the hon. Members who have spoken. As the Opposition spokesperson, however, I am also well aware of my national responsibility, and that of the House, to ensure that every child gets the very best quality of care.
I want to start by making the case for change, as did other Members including my hon. Friends the Members for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) and for North West Durham (Pat Glass), my right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown) and my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell), who made brave and courageous speeches.
Following the devastating findings of the Bristol Royal infirmary inquiry almost 10 years ago, clinicians and professional bodies have been clear that children’s heart services need to change to ensure that every child gets the best standard of care now, and crucially also in the future. They include the Royal College of Surgeons, the Royal College of Nursing, the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, the Society for Cardiothoracic Surgery, the British Congenital Cardiac Association, the Paediatric Intensive Care Society and many others.
The reason why services need to change is that children’s heart surgery is becoming ever more sophisticated. Technological advances mean that care is increasingly specialised and capable of saving more lives and improving outcomes for very sick children. However, services in England have grown up in an ad hoc manner. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) said, surgeons are too thinly spread. Care needs to be better planned to pool expertise in specialist centres so that all children get excellent quality care. I therefore welcome the Safe and Sustainable review, which was initiated by the previous Government. The challenge, as the House has rightly demonstrated today, is to ensure that the right aims, objectives and criteria drive the review, and, crucially, that they have the right weighting and that the right balance is struck.
Of course, improving the quality of care must be our primary concern. The review rightly calls for fewer, larger surgical centres to provide 24/7 consultant cover, and seeks to ensure that surgeons treat a sufficient number of patients with a sufficient variety of problems to ensure that they have the best possible skills.
The review also recommends the development of congenital heart networks, so that care is better co-ordinated at all stages of a child’s life, and that assessments and ongoing care can be provided closer to where patients live. However, as several hon. Members have said, the review cannot look at children’s heart surgery services in isolation; it must also fully consider the knock-on effect on other specialties at the hospitals in question.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester South (Jon Ashworth) and the hon. Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan) rightly said, the work of Glenfield children’s heart surgery centre is closely linked with its extra corporeal membrane oxygenation service. ECMO helps patients with reduced heart or lung functions to have complex surgery that they might not otherwise survive. Glenfield is the country’s leading specialist ECMO centre, and trains and supports other services nationally and internationally. There is real concern at the possibility that that service will be moved to another hospital, because of the time that it would take to build up expertise elsewhere. Not only does it take up to 18 months to train new specialist nurses, but it takes many years to develop equivalent experience.
Ensuring high quality care is not just about surgery standards or links with other specialisms. The wider help and support that families get from doctors and nurses are vital. I was genuinely moved when hon. Members spoke of their conversations with parents and staff in their centres. Time and again, parents emphasise the communication skills of staff, and their ability to explain diagnoses and procedures simply and clearly, at what is often a frightening and worrying time.
Parents at Glenfield tell me that staff are like members of their families—they can ring day or night if they have any concerns. Such familiarity and trust is crucial, and it links to the issue of providing ongoing help and support, which many hon. Members mentioned. When children who have had heart surgery grow up, they have to deal with difficult issues such as whether they can have children. Many families are understandably concerned about having to build new relationships with a different team of doctors and nurses if their local centre closes. It is vital that the review look closely at the links between child and adult congenital heart services, but it has probably paid insufficient attention to that so far. I hope and believe that that will change before the review concludes.
As well as stressing the importance of the quality of clinical care, many hon. Members stressed the importance of ensuring fair access to services. We heard passionate speeches about that from my hon. Friends the Members for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) and for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin). Accessibility matters, because time is of the essence when seriously ill children need to get to heart surgery centres in life-or-death situations, as the hon. Members for Meon Valley (George Hollingbery) and for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) rightly said.
However, travel times also matter to families who need ongoing care and support. My hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham rightly said that many parents would travel to the ends of the earth for their children, but as the hon. Members for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) and for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood) said, making families travel further than they already travel would make such a difficult time even harder for them, especially if they must also hold down a job or care for other children.
The difficult balance between specialising services in some areas but ensuring fair access is the crucial issue for the review.
Mr Dorrell
The hon. Lady is making an important point about access being one of the quality characteristics that need to be taken into account in making these decisions. However, does she agree that the Safe and Sustainable work programme has taken that into account? It was one of the key factors it took into account in making its recommendations and drawing its conclusions on the relative merits of these units.
Liz Kendall
The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point, but hon. Members have said that they feel the issue was given insufficient weighting. At the Leicester consultation, one parent said to me, “If we’d known that all the services were safe”, as the review has said, “we might have placed more importance on the issue.”
The affordability issue has not been mentioned. Hon. Members will, I am sure, be as one in saying that the review must be driven by the need to improve the quality of care, not by reducing costs. However, it is important to recognise, particularly in these financially constrained times, that significant costs are associated with all the current, and likely future, options in the review. That needs to be taken into account.
In conclusion, changing how we provide any hospital service is difficult, but when changes are necessary to improve patient care, as I believe they are for children’s congenital heart services, the House must have the courage to make them happen. Hon. Members have rightly raised a range of concerns on behalf of their constituents, but I am sure we would all agree that the final decision must be made by clinicians on the basis of evidence, not on political considerations. I hope that the joint committee will seriously consider the points raised in this debate and then make final recommendations in patients’ best interests.
Stuart Andrew
I thank everyone who has taken part in this debate, which I think all will agree has been very good and knowledgeable. Members have spoken passionately in favour of their units. The right hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown) and the hon. Members for North Durham (Mr Jones) and for North West Durham (Pat Glass) spoke passionately in favour of the Freeman hospital. The right hon. Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith), the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) and my hon. Friends the Members for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner), for Poole (Mr Syms), for Meon Valley (George Hollingbery), for Winchester (Mr Brine), for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood), for Salisbury (John Glen), for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) and for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) spoke in favour of Southampton. My hon. Friend the Member for Chelsea and Fulham (Greg Hands) spoke for the Royal Brompton—I do not think I am going to get through all these.
The fact is that this debate has got to the heart of the matter. We have discussed the issues that parents and patients have been talking about, but also the concerns that clinicians have been talking about. It is important that we hear those. We heard concerns that if this review does not happen, there could be another Bristol baby tragedy. However, it was reassuring to hear that the units we have are safe. We just need to make them sustainable.
In conclusion, this has been a most excellent debate. I am sure that the Safe and Sustainable team have been listening to Members on both sides of the House. Above all, what has been brilliant about the debate has been the reassurance from the Minister that the Safe and Sustainable review is now flexible over the options and should be flexible over the number of units. That will mean a lot to the people who have been campaigning so hard on this issue, and it shows that a Backbench Business debate can work and make a real difference.
Resolved,
That this House notes the review led by the Joint Committee of Primary Care Trusts into the reconfiguration of children’s heart surgery; welcomes its aim of establishing a more sustainable provision of congenital cardiac services in England which has strong support from professional associations and patient groups; notes that concerns have been expressed during consultation on the proposals; calls on the review to take full account of accurate assessed travel and population projections, the views of ethnic minority communities affected, evidence supporting the co-location of children’s services, and the need for patients and their families to access convenient services; and therefore calls on the Joint Committee not to restrict itself to the four options outlined in the review but instead to consider further options in making its final recommendations.
Wild Animals (Circuses)
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
I have to announce that Mr Speaker has not selected the amendment.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House directs the Government to use its powers under section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 to introduce a regulation banning the use of all wild animals in circuses to take effect by 1 July 2012.
I would like to record my thanks to all the members of the Backbench Business Committee for the opportunity to raise this important issue. I would also like to thank the Clerks for all their helpful advice and assistance in preparation for today’s debate.
It has been an interesting few days. It remains a mystery why the Government have mounted such a concerted operation to stop a vote on this motion, or indeed a vote on any amendment that would allow a ban on wild animals in circuses. I was flexible on amendments.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?
Mr MacShane
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. Will he confirm that he and his Conservative colleagues who are in favour of helping the lions and the tigers have been put under pressure not just by the lance corporals of the Whips Office, but directly from No. 10, the heart of Government? What is it with our Prime Minister that he should have no affection for the lions and tigers waiting to be released from caged imprisonment?
Mark Pritchard
All I can say is that 64% of Members of this House support a ban on wild animals in circuses. I cannot speak for the Prime Minister; he can speak for himself.
It has been an interesting week. This is a Government who have said from the outset that they want to reassert the authority of Parliament. This is a Government who have said that they want to listen to people. Some 92% of the British public want a ban on wild animals in circuses. More than 200 Members of this House have signed an early-day motion supporting a ban, and in a YouGov poll for Dods, 64% of Members of this House said that they want a ban, so why are the Government not listening to the will of this House and, more importantly, the will of the people?
Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD)
On the hon. Gentleman’s point about the Government wanting to reassert the importance of this House, will he explain why they still appear to be claiming that Europe could somehow intervene and prevent us from acting? Will he also confirm that the relevant commissioner said only a few days ago that responsibility for the welfare of circus animals remains in this country, with this House?
Mark Pritchard
My hon. Friend makes an accurate and pertinent point, which, if I may, I would like to address later.
I want to focus on the interesting past few days. On Monday, in return for amending my motion, dropping it or not calling a vote on it—and we are not talking about a major defence issue, an economic issue or public sector reform; we are talking about the ban on wild animals in circuses—I was offered a reward, an incentive. If I had amended my motion and not called for a ban, I would have been offered a job. [Hon. Members: “Ooh!”] Not as a Minister, so those who are competing should not panic. It was a pretty trivial job, like most of the ones I have had—at least, probably, until 30 minutes from now. I was offered incentive and reward on Monday, and then it was ratcheted, until last night, when I was threatened. I had a call from the Prime Minister’s office directly. I was told that the Prime Minister himself had said that unless I withdrew this motion, he would look upon it very dimly indeed.
Well, I have a message for the Whips and for the Prime Minister of our country—I did not pick a fight with the Prime Minister of our country, but I have a message. I might be just a little council house lad from a very poor background, but that background gives me a backbone, it gives me a thick skin, and I am not going to kowtow to the Whips or even the Prime Minister of my country on an issue that I feel passionately about and on which I have conviction. There might be some people with other backbones in this place, on our side and the other side, who will speak later, but we need a generation of politicians with a bit of spine, not jelly. I will not be bullied by any of the Whips. This is an issue on which I have campaigned for many years. In the previous Parliament I had an Adjournment debate and I spoke in the passage of the Animal Welfare Act 2006. I have consistently campaigned on this issue, and I will not kowtow to unnecessary, disproportionate pressure.
Mark Pritchard
I am sorry, but I am afraid that I cannot give way because I have very limited time, although I am sure that it would have been a wonderful intervention from my hon. Friend, as they usually are.
The fact is that we are now in a place that I hoped we could have avoided. I tried to co-operate. Even last night in the Lobby, I spoke to the Whips and said, “Perhaps we can amend the motion”—
Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Are we actually going to get on to the substance of the debate at any point, rather than discussing my hon. Friend’s—[Interruption.]
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. I know that Mr Pritchard is now going to move on to the substance of the motion before the House.
Mr MacShane
Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Is there anything more important than a Member of this House being allowed to speak as he wishes and not being threatened and intimidated? This goes to the heart of what we should be debating.
Mr Deputy Speaker
We are here today to debate the motion before the House and that is exactly what we are now going to do.
Mark Pritchard
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.
Today, this country has three travelling circuses with a total of 39 wild animals, including zebras, tigers, lions and camels. Until the recent exposure of the brutality with which Annie the elephant was treated, there were also elephants, but there are now no elephants in circuses in England. Let us remember that this measure applies to England only. I give credit to the Scottish National party for possibly moving towards a ban in Scotland.
The trouble with the Government’s proposed licensing scheme is that it would create a new generation of animals that could be imported. It would give a green light to new imports. We might not have any elephants left in our circuses now, but we would certainly have some if the new licensing regime came into effect. My concern is shared by 92% of the public, and there are very few public policy areas that attract that support. I am concerned about the cruel and cramped conditions in the housing and transportation of these wild animals. Countries including Singapore, Bolivia, Israel and Hungary have banned the use of wild animals in circuses. Many of those circuses are commercially successful. I should also like to pay tribute to the media, especially The Independent and the Sunday Express, which have campaigned on the issue for many years.
I want to address the specifics of the Government’s proposal for licensing. It is well intentioned, but it will not improve animal welfare. It would be difficult to monitor, implement and enforce. The licensing regime would also be very costly; it could cost taxpayers more than £1 million. An unintended consequence of the regime could be inadvertently to legitimise the import of new animals and continue the use and, I believe, exploitation of wild animals in circuses. Are colleagues really prepared to vote for that today?
Some of my colleagues have quite legitimately approached me to say, “I don’t really believe in banning things.” I take a similar approach, but I like to look at each case on its merits and take each issue case by case. If we followed the logic that we do not like to ban anything, the House would not have banned bear-baiting, badger-baiting or dog fighting. Perhaps we would also not have banned carrying knives in a public place, or even slavery.
Some myths have been put about prior to this debate. It has been said that passing this motion would result in the end of zoos. That is not right; the motion would not affect zoos. It has also been claimed that it would put an end to falconry, but that is not right either. It would not affect falconry. It relates only to wild animals, some of which I have listed. The definition of a wild animal is a species that does not originate in the British isles.
Concern has also been expressed in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport about the effect of the motion on the entertainment industry. I reassure the House that it would not have an impact on the film and television industries. Paragraphs 34 and 37 of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs’ regulatory impact assessment state that travelling circus animals are entirely different from those kept in static locations by private keepers. I hope that with the advancement of digital technology, there will eventually be an end to the use of wild animals in films and on TV because when they are not being used many of these animals are warehoused like a carton of vegetables.
I shall concentrate primarily on the legal issues. Notwithstanding the Government’s written ministerial statement of 13 May and the subsequent revised Government response on 19 May to an urgent question, I hope that the Government will accept that there are no legitimate outstanding legal impediments to prevent a ban in England.
Mark Pritchard
Forgive me, but I am not giving way. I know that the hon. Lady has a long track record on this issue, but I am pressed for time.
If Mr Speaker had selected the amendment this morning, which is relevant to this point, it would have kicked this motion into the long grass and there would have been no ban on the use of wild animals because we would have had to wait, as a country, for other legal cases to be dealt with in other parts of Europe. That, in itself, is a red herring.
In his statement to the House last month, the Minister told Parliament, at column 497, that a court case “against the Austrian Government” would “commence shortly”, given that the Austrian Government wanted to introduce a ban. I understand that the papers have now finally been submitted to the court in Vienna, but there is no live case. Interestingly, despite outright bans in other EU countries—I have already listed some and I could add Greece and Luxembourg—a legal case has never been brought or won before. It is not uncommon to hear of Governments sheltering behind courts in Brussels or Strasbourg, but to hear Ministers in my own Front-Bench team say that this Government are now sheltering behind a domestic court in Vienna is a completely new innovation.
There are two further flaws in the Government’s so-called legal defence. Are the Government of this country suggesting that the threat of legal action or the possible outcome of court cases is enough to paralyse Government decision making? Fear is not usually a prerequisite to success. What is more, the Government are seeking to put Vienna before the courts in London. If the Government waited for the court case in Vienna— the papers have been submitted, as I said—the case went through and the European Circus Association lost, there would be an automatic appeal to the European Court. That would add more delay and procrastination, further getting the Government off the hook when it comes to introducing a ban in this country. Even if that case were spent, there could be another European court considering another case in another European capital.
Notwithstanding my comments, the reality is that the Government’s Austrian defence is a red herring, given that the European Commission has clearly stated that a ban is a matter for member states alone. It is an issue that English courts decide. Surely that is something to celebrate in this age of judicial creep from Europe, and also something to exercise and implement. A ban can be introduced in an English court— without waiting for other European capitals to decide and without interference from Europe, which makes a refreshing change.
The Government have invoked the Human Rights Act 1998—yes, that old chestnut. The sooner the Government scrap the Act and introduce a British Bill of Rights, the better for everyone. Let us test the Act in an English domestic court, where even Brussels wants such cases heard. Let the Government have the courage of their own convictions. Legal advice from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs itself suggests that a ban might breach circus owners’ property rights under the Human Rights Act, so let us test it in the courts. Let us see what the courts have to say—the courts in London and England, not in Vienna, Brussels, Strasbourg, Copenhagen or some other European capital.
I pay tribute to the Minister of State, who has been put in a very difficult position. On 19 May, he courageously and bravely told this House that he personally would like to see a ban on the use of wild animals in circuses. We also know that officials at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs want a ban on the use of wild animals in circuses, and it is reported that the Secretary of State herself is minded to favour a ban, yet No. 10 has overruled: so much for devolving power and allowing Departments to get on with their own business, and so much for ending the control-freakery of No. 10; it appears that that tendency under the last Government is continuing under this one.
The Government have also invoked the European services directive, saying that a ban would breach it and would fail to meet the proportionality legal test. I can tell the House that that is not the case, and that the European Commission has denied that it is the case.
I appeal to the House to support my motion. Let us get Britain back to where it was in the last century—leading, rather than lagging behind, the world on animal welfare issues—and let us put an end to the use of wild animals in circuses.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. There is a six-minute limit on Back-Bench contributions. As is apparent from the number of Members rising to be called to speak, this is a very popular debate.
Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)
I am very pleased to follow the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard), and I congratulate him. I do not imagine that he is in the running for his Chief Whip’s Back-Bencher of the month award, and he might have to wait a wee while before receiving further invitations to receptions at No. 10, but he is showing great tenacity and determination in keeping this issue alive in Parliament, and in bringing it to the attention of the House today, with the able assistance of the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell). I also thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting time for this debate.
Some people may not consider this issue to be of major political consequence, but it means a great deal to a lot of people, as evidenced by the thousands of responses to last year’s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs consultation, by the number of people signing The Independent newspaper’s petition, by the hundreds of MPs who have signed the relevant early-day motions, and by the e-mails and letters MPs have been receiving not just in the last few days, but over the past 14 months.
I should declare an interest: I was the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Minister who left this matter to the current Minister of State, the right hon. Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Mr Paice), to sort out, and I apologise to him for that. I am sure he would rather be concentrating on other matters, but he is a highly respected politician of integrity, and I know he will take note of today’s debate and vote.
Tony Baldry
As the hon. Gentleman had ministerial responsibility for this issue under the last Government, may I ask him a question? In the last Parliament, we spent a lot of time debating the Bill that became the Animal Welfare Act 2006, and we were told that it was the most up-to-date legislation in the world. Therefore, if there is a concern about animal welfare, why is it not covered by the provisions of that Act?
Jim Fitzpatrick
That is a good question, and I will discuss the 2006 Act in due course. It is my understanding that that Act could be used as the enabling legislation to introduce a ban, and I hope that my later remarks on it will clarify the situation for the hon. Gentleman.
When I took over as Minister of State in 2009, the question of wild animals in circuses had been left over from the 2006 Act. That Act was much needed and warmly welcomed and took animal welfare to a much better place, but wild animals in circuses were not specifically covered. I was lobbied by the Born Free Foundation, as well as the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and Animal Defenders International, and also by many Members. DEFRA organised a consultation, and we all know the outcome: 94.5% of the 13,000 respondents said they wanted a ban. The then Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), agreed that we should express our conclusions before last May’s election and we said we were minded to introduce a ban.
Recently, there has been much comment about legal impediments. The European Circus Association challenged the Austrian ban at the European Commission in 2006, and it lost. It invoked the European ombudsman and it lost. The ombudsman asked the Commission to evaluate whether the Austrian ban on wild animals in circuses was proportionate. The Commission’s final opinion of September 2009, as laid out in the documents available in the Library pack for today’s debate, set out why it did not believe there were grounds for an accusation of maladministration and also set out its view on the proportionality of the Austrian ban. It ruled that this was a matter for member states to decide.
Much advice was offered to me when I was a Minister, but my recollection is that the legal questions were about whether a ban would require primary or secondary legislation. I do not remember there being a European dimension to the advice, but of course memory does play tricks on us.
Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)
The hon. Gentleman was a good Minister, but does he regret that he did not introduce a ban in his time as a Minister?
Jim Fitzpatrick
I regret that we as a Labour Government did not introduce a ban, but the Animal Welfare Act was a major piece of legislation and we tried our best. Given the constraints and the time frame between when I was appointed Minister of State and the May 2010 election, there was not long enough to introduce that ban. However we gave a commitment to the animal welfare lobby, to parliamentary colleagues and to the public that we were minded to introduce a ban if we were re-elected, which sadly we were not. I am convinced that we would have gone ahead with that.
The biggest obstacle to progress that I can remember, as has been mentioned by the hon. Member for The Wrekin, was at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, which contended that any such ban could harm our creative industries by outlawing the use of animals in film and TV productions at worst or by reducing the number of performing animals available at best. Either way, the contention was that the threat to film and TV production would move it abroad and cost us jobs and revenue. We had numerous discussions about this and we were eventually able to reassure DCMS that that would not be the case and that we could limit the ban to the use of wild animals in circuses, as the hon. Gentleman has outlined. DCMS dropped its objection and the Government had a united policy, which appeared in our manifesto in May last year.
All kinds of questions were raised about whether wild animals should perform at all and which should be allowed to. My main concern was and is about the conditions in which animals are kept in venues and on the road. We are mostly reassured that modern zoos create environments that try to reflect animals’ origins, natural habitat and behaviour patterns, and we have to ask how that can be done in the back of a cage attached to a lorry driving along the motorways of Britain. Even this morning on BBC “Breakfast”, the camera crew visiting a circus was not allowed to film the animals’ living quarters. I think that that speaks volumes. Why the reluctance? I think we all know.
The Government say they want to introduce a licensing system rather than a ban. The system would mean that any circuses wishing to have wild animals such as tigers, lions and elephants performing in them would need to demonstrate that they met high animal welfare standards for each animal before they could be granted a licence to keep them. Areas being considered as part of the licensing conditions include the rules on transporting animals, the type of quarters they could be kept in, including winter quarters, and their treatment by trainers and keepers.
I know from my time at DEFRA that it wants to improve the welfare of animals across the piece and to improve the situation. It has even been suggested by some that the licensing regime could introduce a ban by the back door, but we do not want a ban by the back door—we want a ban through the front door. We want honesty and transparency in the laws and regulations we debate and introduce. We want clarity, not confusion. The public have used their voice to articulate that they want a ban and Members of every party have said that they want a ban. I hope and appeal to hon. Members in all parts of the House when it comes to the vote at 6 o’clock tonight to support the motion in the names of the hon. Members for The Wrekin, for Colchester and myself.
Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)
Animal welfare matters to the British people, but we in the House have a duty and responsibility to make decisions on issues relating to animal welfare based on facts, knowledge and science. If we make decisions based purely on opinion polls and emotions, we shall get ourselves into great difficulty. I heard nothing in the speech of the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) about the actual welfare of animals.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Andrew Rosindell
I will give way in a moment.
We have to base our decisions on cool hard facts and knowledge of the situation. The speeches I have heard today do not show that; they have avoided the real animal welfare issues and are pandering to the emotions of animal rights activists who care more about their political agenda than about the real welfare of animals.
I condemn utterly and totally cruelty to animals of any kind. I was the shadow Minister for animal welfare for three years before the last election, and I had the same instincts as many people in the Chamber today and many of the people who respond to opinion polls, when they say, “Isn’t it dreadful. It should be banned. How awful this is.”
Andrew Rosindell
May I make some progress before I give way?
Instead of basing my views purely on what the newspapers or the opinion polls say, I looked into the matter. The truth is that in this country only a small number of animals are in circuses: 39 in total. They are not captured from the jungle and dragged to the circus; many have been born and bred in circuses for generations. [Interruption.] Their entire rhythm of life is based—
Andrew Rosindell
Not at the moment.
For those animals, their entire rhythm of life is based on what they have known since they were born. On the face of it—
Andrew Rosindell
May I continue?
On the face of it, I agree that it looks to many people as though it is all very cruel, but in reality many of those animals have been so domesticated over so many years that to wrench them from the life they are used to would be crueller than allowing them to continue it. The Government have to implement welfare and we already have the Animal Welfare Act 2006. If there is real cruelty to animals, we can use existing legislation or, as the Government propose, licensing to deal with it. [Interruption.] It is amazing that we are focusing on an area where there is almost no cruelty—[Hon. Members: “There is.”] There isn’t. [Interruption.] No one wants to hear the facts—[Interruption.] They don’t.
I am fed up with animals being used as a political football. If Members want to campaign for animal welfare, they should look at the facts, examine the reality and not use it to promote a political agenda. I am afraid to say that certain animal welfare organisations—[Interruption.]
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. Mr Rosindell is not giving way, so persistent requests are not helping the situation. I am sure he will let the House know when he is ready to take an intervention.
Andrew Rosindell
I should like to take interventions, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I am being shouted down, which is not very fair, especially from a Green MP—I should have thought that she would want to hear the other point of view.
I am a champion for animal welfare, but I shall not just follow the crowd. I shall look at the facts. What is being proposed is worse than those poor animals are used to; their entire life has been in the environment they were brought up in. Wrenching them away from the people who have looked after them, loved them and cared for them would obliterate their rhythm of life and would be crueller than allowing it to continue. I shall now give way.
Caroline Lucas
The hon. Gentleman says that he wants science. What about the science from the British Veterinary Association, which says:
“the welfare needs of non-domesticated, wild animals cannot be met within the environment of a travelling circus…A licensing scheme will not address these issues”?
The BVA is one of the most respected scientific organisations for animal welfare in this country. What does he say to that?
Andrew Rosindell
Non-domesticated—they are wild animals, but when lions and tigers are 10th generation born in that environment, we are no longer talking about a lion taken out of its natural environment and dragged into the circus. I am afraid to say that the issue is often used by organisations for fundraising. Charities and animal rights groups raise money, and the issue is raised to attract political support and donations, by whipping up emotions instead of treating the facts as they are.
Andrew Rosindell
No, I will not.
We have the Animal Welfare Act 2006—a brilliant piece of legislation from the last Government, which we supported—and it can be used when cruelty occurs, but I appeal to the House: do not go with the crowd, look at the facts, do not wrench those creatures away from the life that they are used to and have grown up in. If you do that, you will be more cruel than leaving them where they are, with the people and in the environment that they are used to.
Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
Will my hon. Friend share with the House his views on whether third-generation slaves in the United States, born into slavery, were content with slavery, more so than those who were enslaved in the first place?
Andrew Rosindell
I am afraid to say that I am sorry that the debate is being dragged to such a level. Instead of dealing with the facts, you are ultimately saying that animals—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. Once again, I can see that emotions are running high, but I remind the House that when you say, “you”, you mean me.
Andrew Rosindell
I knew that my views would be unpopular, but I ask hon. Members perhaps to take something away from what I am saying, because I believe passionately in animal welfare. I looked at this for three years. I visited circuses. I spoke to people who deal with training the animals, and I know that they are loved and cared for. This is like a pack hunting a tiny bit of tradition that still exists in this country, where animal welfare standards are greatly considered and animals are loved and cared for. I am afraid to say that, if we rush to make a decision based on pure emotion and opinion polls, I really think that it will be an irresponsible decision. We should look at the facts. We should understand the long-term interests of animal welfare and use existing legislation to deal with this issue.
Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab)
That contribution can best be described idiosyncratic, or idiotic, depending on the point of view taken. To say that it is not about the welfare of animals is either a display of stupidity that is quite mind-numbing or a deliberate attempt not to face up to the heart of the issue. As the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) said in opening the debate, this is entirely about animal welfare. Only about 40 or so animals are involved—there are various numbers; perhaps it is 36 or 37—but the numbers do not matter. What matters is cruelty.
Mark Pritchard
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, in the absence my having been able to intervene on my hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell). The hon. Gentleman needs to be careful not to be too harsh on my hon. Friend, who wrote the foreword in 2009 for the Great British Circus and previous forewords as well. Perhaps that is why he would not allow me to intervene.
Jim Dowd
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention; I suspect that he might be on to something.
I am puzzled because this is a relatively minor issue: as I say, somewhere between 36 and 40 animals are involved. The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) quoted the British Veterinary Association. The hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) did not grasp the difference between domesticated and captive animals. Captive animals may still be wild and nowhere near domesticated. Even until the nth generation, they remain wild and their instincts are those of wild creatures. The British Veterinary Association said that in captivity in circuses, there are no circumstances under which such animals can demonstrate their natural behaviour. That will remain the case, regardless of a regulatory scheme. The big disadvantage of a regulatory scheme is that it would be a more complicated way of dealing with the matter and it would be much more likely to increase, not reduce, the number of wild animals being used in circuses.
Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab)
I have received a huge number of e-mails and correspondence from constituents about this matter. The hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard), whom I congratulate on having initiated the debate, mentioned how the conditions in which the animals are kept adversely affect them. The hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) referred to facts. The usual life expectancy of animals kept in such conditions is much shorter than that of animals not kept in those conditions.
Jim Dowd
Indeed. The hon. Member for Romford was being most disingenuous or misinformed, depending on one’s point of view, in saying that there was not a body of evidence based on animal welfare considerations that supports the ban. The argument in favour of a ban is entirely predicated on that. He may not have understood the evidence, but that does not mean it does not exist.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
As a scientist I am very interested in evidence. Could the hon. Gentleman spot what the facts were that we were being asked to listen to by the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell)? I missed all those, whereas the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) seemed to cite facts that were much more interesting.
Jim Dowd
The hon. Gentleman has it exactly right. The speech of the hon. Member for Romford would bear rereading, as they say. Perhaps we can have a prize for anyone who can mine a single fact out of it—but please do not send that to me.
The hon. Member for The Wrekin, my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick), I and Brian Blessed, among others, were over at Downing street towards the end of March to hand in a letter calling for the ban to be introduced. I know that there are those on the Government Benches who are ideologically opposed to bans of any kind, which is a strange position, but it is understandable. Parliament and the whole body of law is about bans of one kind or another designed to change people’s behaviour in different ways. A law says, “If you behave in a certain way, there will be certain consequences,” but no law can ever make people better. What it can say is that there are patterns of behaviour and conduct which are acceptable and there are those which are not. Cruelty to animals is one of those considerations.
Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)
Is it not a fact that zoos have spent a great deal of money doing the research to find out what sort of facilities should be made available for the sort of animals that we are discussing? Clearly, travelling circuses cannot provide such facilities.
Jim Dowd
I agree strongly with my hon. Friend. When we speak to those involved with zoos and aquariums, it is clear that they are looking carefully at the kind of animals that they will and will not exhibit. Large mammals and large carnivores are very much at the top of their considerations.
As just about every Member knows, animal welfare is one of the most persistent issues raised with us by our constituents over time. From the 19 years that I have been in the House, I have a database running into many thousands of people who have raised various issues with me. People feel very strongly about these issues, and rightly so. It is the hallmark of a civilised nation that it has the highest possible animal welfare standards, and I still believe this to be a civilised nation. There is a maxim that suggests that the hottest corner of hell is reserved for those who are cruel to children and animals, and in that regard, despite being a life-long atheist, I hope that there is a hell.
Constituents raise concerns with us because they care about them. For the hon. Member for Romford—I do not want to concentrate on his contribution, but it really was quite extraordinary—to describe the entire pantheon of animal welfare organisations, many of which have royal charters and have been around for decades, if not centuries, as part of some kind of trendy conspiracy invented simply to please Guardian readers is ludicrous.
I accept that the Minister is in a difficult situation, and he has made his personal opinion clear. What I cannot understand—the hon. Member for The Wrekin alluded to this—is why the Government have handled such a relatively straightforward issue in this fashion. The idea of No. 10 getting personally involved in such as issue shows a curious lack of proportion. It also appears curious when tested against the idea that the Government are now listening and that listening is a sign of strength.
Mark Pritchard
I am pleased to announce that the coalition Government, certainly on the Conservative side, have heard the voice of the British people, seen sense and will now allow a free vote on the matter.
Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
I am pleased to be called to speak in the debate, but I find it rather sad that we are still talking about this issue after so much time. DEFRA officials said in 2009 that the ban could be introduced under the Animal Welfare Act 2006. We went wrong when the Minister of State commented recently that a total ban on wild animals in circuses might be seen as disproportionate under the EU services directive and under our own Human Rights Act 1998. I must say that, on that point, I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard). Having had some contact with the Whips in the past week, I have become quite an expert on the Human Rights Act and particularly knowledgeable on article 8 of the convention.
With regard to the European Court’s case law, it is difficult to envisage a cogent argument that could support the assertion that a ban would engage the other rights set out in the convention, such as the rights to life and to a fair trail. Therefore, I can only presume that the Minister made his comments while considering a ban under article 8.
Article 8(1) has been interpreted extremely broadly by the European Court, whereas exemptions or limitations to the right have been interpreted narrowly. The right has three potentially relevant elements: private life, family life and home. Private life has been held to include the right to develop one’s own personality and relationships with others. The European Court considered that the notion of personal autonomy is an important principle underlying the interpretation of the right.
However, the right has been held not to apply to activities that relate to the private aspects of a person’s life, such as those that take place in public and where there is no expectation of privacy. In the current situation, a ban relates not to the private aspects of the lives of those potentially affected, but to their employment, which essentially takes place in public and without the expectation of privacy. Equally, the ban would not affect the right to a family life, as it would not prevent or interfere with a person living in proximity to their family.
Finally, the concept of home under the convention is wide and would include travelling accommodation as well as permanent dwellings.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)
I am sure that my hon. Friend is right about article 8 of the convention, but at no time have I referred to it. If he had read what I said, he would know that I referred to article 1.
Mr Offord
I am happy to stand corrected by the Minister. That allows me to move my argument on.
Another argument is that a ban on animals in circuses would interfere with a person’s right to the peaceful enjoyment of their possessions because it would amount to a control on how those possessions may be used, but such an interference with that right would not violate the right if it were done in the public interest. I therefore urge the Minister to consider a ban in that public interest.
The European Courts have decided that, whether or not the control on possessions imposed by a ban is in the public interest, they will have regard to whether a ban represents a fair balance between the needs of the public interest and the rights of the individual. In other words, I tell the Minister that the European Courts will consider whether a total ban is a proportionate measure to achieve the public interest aim in question.
Accordingly, it is important to consider why exactly a ban is required in the public interest. If a total ban is proposed to ensure that animals are kept in appropriate conditions and cared for by appropriately qualified persons, there is an argument that, unlike the proposed licensing and inspection regime, a ban is not proportionate to the public interest aim being pursued. If a total ban is proposed because it is considered cruel or ethically wrong to make wild animals perform in circuses in the UK, however, a total ban is the only measure that will achieve that public aim.
Accordingly, if Parliament determines that wild animals performing in circuses is no longer acceptable to the public, it will therefore be in the public interest to have a ban on the use of such animals. The European Courts would be very unlikely to question the judgment of this House as to what is in the public interest of the United Kingdom.
Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con)
Is my hon. Friend aware that in the UK more than 200 local authorities have bans on animals in circuses, and that more than two thirds of those bans are on all performing animals, the remainder being on wild animals? Is he aware also of any ongoing court cases under human rights legislation?
Mr Offord
I am certainly not aware of any cases under human rights legislation, and the situation involves not just 200 local authorities, but countries and principalities in countries, including Austria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Poland, Portugal, Spain and Sweden. All those countries have to decided to take that suggested approach, yet we are once again kowtowing to the European Courts.
Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
On human rights, does my hon. Friend accept that it takes only one person to challenge this decision in order to delay for a number of years the process that every Member seems to want, whereas sensible regulation would achieve the same aims over a much shorter time?
Mr Offord
I suggest, as others have already urged, that we take a lead on the matter. As I have said, I have had some experience with the Human Rights Act this week, but when people use it they find that many in officialdom bow down and decide that, suddenly, it is a very important issue and that those people will get away with what they are trying to achieve.
In summary, case law from the European Court of Human Rights indicates that a ban would be within the “margin of appreciation” afforded to the United Kingdom. If a ban is proposed because it is considered cruel or ethically wrong in itself to make wild animals perform in circuses in the United Kingdom, as opposed to a ban being proposed because welfare standards cannot be guaranteed, then a ban is the only measure that will achieve that public interest aim and is therefore automatically proportionate.
Accordingly, a ban will not breach the European convention on human rights, and as a ban is only a control on the use of wild animals in circuses and therefore does not deprive the owner of the animal itself or of their ability to use it for commercial purposes, there is a strong presumption against compensation being awarded to persons who suffer any loss as a result of the ban. If the Government decide to implement a ban, it will not be as revolutionary as we have heard, given the 200 local authorities and the other countries that have been mentioned.
I do not believe that animals should be subjected to the conditions of circus life. Regular transport, cramped and bare temporary housing, forced training and performance, loud noises and crowds of people are all typical and often unavoidable realities for such animals. Therefore, unless the Government give us a time frame for a ban on animals in circuses, I will vote for the motion.
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
We have already heard many comments from many colleagues, so I will not repeat what has been said. I rise in support of the motion, which
“directs the Government to use its powers under section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 to introduce a regulation banning the use of all wild animals in circuses”.
I had the privilege of serving on the Animal Welfare Bill Committee back in 2006. The Bill became an excellent Act with many good measures asking people to think carefully. It was good in terms of introducing codes and saying that animal welfare really matters. During that Committee’s proceedings, however, I raised the issue of banning the use of wild animals in circuses, and I would have liked to have seen a much slicker process in the Bill to progress the matter at that time.
Matters have progressed, however. The consultation that the Labour Government instigated in 2009 showed that public opinion is even more clearly behind a ban on the use of wild animals in circuses than it was back in 2006, with 94.5% of people saying that they would support it. It is therefore a great shame that we did not have the time to introduce that ban before the election, after which the coalition Government chose to disregard public opinion by not proceeding with introducing it.
It is extraordinary that the smokescreen of the European Union has been put up as an excuse for not introducing the ban, because as was explained earlier, the Commissioner has clarified the position and there is absolutely no obstacle whatsoever in the way of our doing so. The European Union does not prevent us from doing this.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is to be commended for the work that she has done on animal welfare in the last Parliament and in this one. Is it not the case that all that is required to bring in the ban is secondary legislation using the existing provisions in the 2006 Act—a very simple process?
Nia Griffith
Indeed; my hon. Friend has clarified the position. It is very straightforward. It can be achieved because of the groundwork that was done during the first stages of the Animal Welfare Bill.
Evidence from local councils over very many years shows that when given the opportunity many local councillors, rather than trying to ban the use of animals, have said that circuses are not allowed to come on to their land to perform because they want to make the point and respond to public opinion. We do not want a messy licensing situation whereby this, that and the other has to be done and the situation is unclear to everybody—we want a simple, straightforward ban.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
I am sure that there will be party political points to be scored throughout the debate; I congratulate those who have called it. Does the hon. Lady accept, however, that there is a gathering consensus, with the Government’s body language since the announcement on 13 May indicating that there is a growing preference in Government for a ban?
Nia Griffith
We want a definitive decision to be taken today. We want that decision to go in favour of a ban, and we want that ban to be implemented without any further delays of any sort whatsoever. The consultation clearly indicates where public opinion stands and the reasons why. I am not going to keep listing the terrible instances of cruelty that we have heard about. Even if there were no deliberate cruelty, it is clear to anybody that the lifestyle of always popping in and out of a cage and performing and travelling is not something that anybody could possibly understand as the way that a wild animal would be expected to behave.
On the business about 10 generations, even in the case of our own cats and dogs who may be 10 generations domesticated, we have cat flaps and take dogs for walks. We certainly do not expect them to live the life of popping in and out of a cage and being isolated from other members of their species and taken right of their environment. That is clearly incompatible with their natural way of life. There are many opportunities for young people to see how animals can live in the wild using hidden cameras. We have experts and naturalists who produce fabulous films. We can click on our computers and see it all. We can go to a safari park, without having to travel abroad, to see animals who can be kept in certain ways in this country.
Angela Smith
Have we not come to expect, as a society, that animals should live in their natural environment and should not have to exist for the benefit of human beings and their entertainment?
Nia Griffith
Absolutely. It is a purely selfish idea that anybody would want to see an animal perform in a circus. As my hon. Friend says, we have moved on from that. It is completely mediaeval to think of going back to the idea that an animal is to be taken round on a chain because nobody in the area or in the country has ever had a chance to see that type of animal. We do not want that any more.
There are many important lessons that we want to teach our young people. They will not learn the fundamental lesson about respect for animals and treating them properly and well if they are taken to a circus to see such antics. Young people have to understand that for them to see such things, animals have to travel and undergo very undesirable practices. Animal welfare is incompatible with the life of a travelling circus.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
I have personal experience of a wild animal. I found a bear in a cage in no man’s land. He had been left there for four weeks without water. He was entirely miserable and would not even be coaxed out of his cage by honey. We managed to ethnically cleanse that bear out of Bosnia and into Croatia. He is now a very happy bear who is full of life and living in Amsterdam zoo, which is great. I fully support the idea of banning animals in cages, because it would stop that sort of thing.
Nia Griffith
As I have said, society has moved on. We do not expect to see the cruelty of animals being kept in circuses in this day and age.
We want this ban to be sorted out in the most efficient way for the whole country, not in little bits and pieces or through half measures. We want a proper ban on the use of wild animals in circuses. As I have said, there are many other ways in which young people can be educated about animals. They do not need to see cruelty to animals in the circus. I fully support the motion. I congratulate the Members who called for this debate and thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing it.
Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)
I am delighted to speak on this incredibly important motion, and I congratulate the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) on securing this debate. It is fair to say that I do not always agree with him, but I recognise his strong commitment to animal welfare, which I share.
Hon. Members had the opportunity to debate banning wild animals in circuses in a Westminster Hall debate secured by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) on 8 June. I am delighted that we now have the opportunity to debate it on the Floor of the House and to vote on it. I make it clear that I will be voting for the motion. There have been suggestions that Conservative Back Benchers are being or have been whipped to vote against the motion. I state categorically that I have not been whipped by any Liberal Democrat Member to vote either way. All I say to Conservative colleagues who may be thinking of voting against the motion is that they should bear in mind the level of public support throughout the country and, more specifically, in their constituencies for a total ban on the use of wild animals in circuses.
My concern is that the Government’s proposal of introducing a licensing scheme may inadvertently legitimise the use of wild animals in circuses, resulting in an increase in their use and an increase in suffering.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
Another problem with licensing is that it does not deal with the issue of animal welfare, because the animals still travel and are still kept in unacceptable conditions.
Mr Leech
I thank the right hon. Gentleman; I was about to make that very point.
Over the past few years, there has been a dramatic reduction in the number of wild animals in circuses. There are now only about 38 or 39 animals being used in three circuses. That is a welcome decline and I hope that the trend continues as more and more people support a complete ban. Recent surveys have suggested that at least 70% of people support a complete ban, and more than 94% of people who responded to the consultation did so as well.
Unfortunately, I understand from the Captive Animals Protection Society that the day after the Westminster Hall debate Malcolm Clay, secretary of the Association of Circus Proprietors of Great Britain, said that far from a licensing scheme discouraging circuses from using wild animals—which the Minister suggested might be the case—
“Once we have… regulation which reassures the public we may see some circuses return to using animals.”
Surely that is not the Minister’s intention.
There has been a public focus on the issue of wild animals in circuses in recent times, not least because of the spotlight on the poor treatment of Anne the elephant, but also owing to the number of people who have seen the film “Water for Elephants” in the cinema. I urge Members who have not seen the film to go and see it. Unfortunately, however, the plight of Anne the elephant has muddied the waters to some extent. I do not think anyone would deny that no one with a brain would condone the mistreatment of animals, and I have no doubt that this was only one of a very small number of instances of animal cruelty in circuses. I am sure that the vast majority of wild animals in circuses are looked after as well as they possibly can be. What concerns me is that the nature of a circus, which involves moving from place to place in cramped conditions, makes it impossible to provide a suitable living environment for wild animals.
The nature of a circus also makes it impossible to provide an inspection system that could adequately check that regulations were being adhered to at every location unless that system is ridiculously expensive. Although the Minister has said that the cost will fall on the circuses, I suspect that the result will probably be an inadequate inspection system and an insufficient number of inspections. An inspection system will not work, and may result in more wild animals in circuses and more suffering. It will not address the fact that the constant movement of animals in cramped conditions is not good for the welfare of the animals. The only way to ensure an end to animal suffering in circuses is a complete ban, and I urge Members in all parts of the House to vote for that ban
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. So that more Back Benchers will have an opportunity to speak, I am reducing the time limit to five minutes.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
I pay tribute to the Members who tabled this important motion.
We need a ban on keeping wild animals in circuses because it is cruel, but we also need a ban because the welfare of those animals is emblematic of the way in which we treat all animals, and is symbolic of the kind of society in which we live. The Government are wrong to suggest that the European Union is somehow preventing us from dealing with the issue. In response to the insistence of Ministers during the last debate on this subject that a legal threat in Europe had been a major factor in the prevention of an outright ban, leading animal protection organisations called a meeting with the European Commission’s Head of Representation, at which it was confirmed once again that the issue of wild animals in circuses was a matter best left to the judgment of member states.
When I was a Member of the European Parliament, we did a great deal of work trying to make progress with animal welfare issues in the Parliament. Often, the advice was to go back to member states in the first instance and to rouse them to act. I have therefore urged Ministers to consider, for example, the action that was taken first on dog and cat fur and then on seal fur. On both occasions, leadership by member states prompted the EU to ban imports of those types of fur. It is significant that the legal advice that was used in an attempt to stop those bans was that there were so-called “outstanding legal impediments”. Exactly the same excuse is being used today. Governments were given the legal advice that it would be impossible to ban imports of cat and dog fur, and the same was said of seal fur, but when individual Governments challenged that dubious advice, they were able to make the bans happen.
It is when a number of forward-thinking member states call strongly for action on something that we see progress on the EU position. There are clear precedents, not least in animal welfare policy, in which action by individual states has been the means by which animal welfare protection has been secured across the EU.
In an attempt to find out whether the Government were genuinely looking for a legal way to make a ban on wild animals in circuses happen, I tabled a written question asking whether the Secretary of State had received any legal advice on
“instances where a single EU member state has taken unilateral action on animal welfare matters which has led subsequently to a change of EU policy in line with that action”.—[Official Report, 9 June 2011; Vol. 529, c. 408W.]
The extraordinarily complacent response was that the Secretary of State had “no recollection” of any such advice. Why is she not going out and asking for that advice? Why is she not looking for the legal means to go ahead with a ban, in line with the wishes of the vast majority of people in this country? Instead, she and her Ministers have been looking for legal cases to cower behind as a cover for not acting.
It is worth reminding ourselves that it is not just because of public opinion that we need a ban, important thought that is. Members have spoken about the importance of science, and I have cited the evidence of the British Veterinary Association, which has stated that
“the welfare needs of non-domesticated, wild animals cannot be met within the environment of a travelling circus; especially in terms of accommodation and the ability to express normal behaviour. A licensing scheme will not address these issues”.
We are not criticising individual circus owners; we are saying that the very nature of being in a circus means that animals’ welfare needs cannot be addressed.
At first, my feeling was that the Government’s position was extraordinarily cowardly. As the debates continue, I am sadly coming to the conclusion that they do not want to act because they do not like to be seen to be banning things, and are therefore looking for excuses. It is interesting to reflect on the fact that successive UK Governments have been in breach of their obligations under the bathing water directive since 1975. Although it is nice to see DEFRA suddenly discovering the idea of complying in full with what it perceives to be its EU obligations, perhaps it is not too cynical to suggest on this occasion that they simply do not want to act.
If the Government wanted to stop this cruel practice, they would be acting. In their defence we would have another euro-sausage type story, with headlines about the UK having every right to act and comments like “How dare the EU interfere?”, as we saw with the “Defend the British banger” story. Yet in this instance, the EU is not telling us what to do. Instead, we are inventing barriers where none exists.
Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)
The hon. Lady is making a marvellous speech. My understanding is that every legal case brought by European circus owners, like the one in Austria that has been mentioned, has been lost. There seems to be almost no real basis at all for the Government’s claim.
Caroline Lucas
The hon. Gentleman’s intervention is very helpful in pointing out that that argument is a smokescreen that the Government are hiding behind. Indeed, the Head of Representation of the European Commission here in London recently wrote a letter to the Captive Animals Protection Society stating plainly, yet again, that the EU considered that
“the welfare of animals…is a matter best left to the judgement of Member States”.
It is not acceptable to have a policy which leaves us just hoping that regulations will have the same effect as a ban, particularly given that the secretary of the Association of Circus Proprietors of Great Britain stated on the day after our last debate that he did not believe the new costs of regulation would discourage circuses from having performing animals. Instead, he stated that
“once we have robust regulation which reassures the public we may see some circuses return to using animals”.
How perverse would that be as an outcome of having licences?
Mr Foster
For the avoidance of doubt, will the hon. Lady confirm that the EU has not said just that these issues are best left to member states? The Commissioner has specifically said that they are the responsibility of member states. That is what gives us the legitimacy to have a ban, and to have it now.
Caroline Lucas
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. It is the responsibility of member states to act, and it is within our remit and right for us to do so. That is what the EU is saying, so it is incredibly perverse to try to do otherwise.
In conclusion, the Government’s judgment on this matter is woefully lacking. They have got it wrong on this one.
Angela Smith
I am sorry to intervene on the hon. Lady towards the end of her speech, and I thank her for allowing me to do so. If the vote tonight is in favour of a ban, does she, like me, expect the Government to act on that and bring in a ban as quickly as possible?
Caroline Lucas
I think that were the Government not to act in that way, the Great British public would be shocked and any sense of democratic accountability would be undermined. I agree completely with the hon. Lady that they should respect the wishes of the vast majority of people in this country and immediately ban the cruel practice of keeping wild animals in circuses. Personally, I would go further and ban all animals in circuses, not just wild animals. I refer hon. Members to Cirque du Soleil, one of the most famous and successful circuses in all of Europe, which uses no animals at all.
The outcome that the Government imply they want is for there to be no wild animals in circuses. If that is the case, I call on them to show some real leadership and effect a ban now.
Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)
I pay my respects to my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard), whom I cannot see in the Chamber, and congratulate him on securing this important debate.
I should like to put it on the record that I am grateful that we will now have a free vote. Applying a three-line Whip to an issue such as this would have made a mockery of the relationship between Parliament and the Government. That is a welcome move in the past couple of hours.
I shall not pretend that this is the biggest animal welfare issue, because it clearly is not. There are 30 or 40 wild animals in circuses in this country. That does not compare with the millions of animals that have to experience daily the brutality and horrors of factory farming. This is none the less an important issue. There is no justifiable reason for keeping animals such as elephants, tigers, lions and so on in small, travelling cages, away from any semblance of what for them would be a normal life. That is just not civilised.
My understanding is that until recently the Government took the same view, but that that changed somewhere along the line. It is hard for me—and, I believe, many others—to understand why that happened. For one thing, the vast majority of people support a ban. All the polls suggest that. The public appetite for such entertainment is, at best, fading. It is certainly not a growth sector.
Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)
With overwhelming public opinion against the use of animals, might such a ban help circuses, because it could attract customers who, like me, are appalled by the use of wild animals, back to them?
Zac Goldsmith
That is an extremely valuable point. I have been to circuses in this country, but I have made a point of choosing to go only to those that I know use no wild animals. It would be nice not to have to do that research. I am sure that many people are repelled for that reason.
Zac Goldsmith
I have no idea. I do not know the politics and I do not know the Prime Minister’s position. I accept that the vast majority of the public are opposed to the use of wild animals in circuses, as—I believe—are the vast majority of Members of the House.
It is particular confusing that whereas the Government have a stated ambition over the course of this Parliament to reduce red tape and bureaucracy, their alternative to a straightforward ban affecting 30 or perhaps 40 animals is to construct a new regulatory regime, with licensing and inspections and the various associated costs. That goes against the Government’s general thrust and direction—and all for 30 or 40 animals. That makes no sense at all.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the strength of public opinion. Why were his Government and his Prime Minister prepared to have a three-line Whip for Conservatives until the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) stood up?
Zac Goldsmith
I began my speech by welcoming the change of heart over the past couple of hours. I have not been part of that process, so I cannot answer the hon. Gentleman’s question, but I am very pleased that we will have a free vote—it is the kind of issue that should have a free vote. I am very much on the record before the debate as saying that I would have defied a three-line Whip and voted for the motion, as a very large number of Government Members would have done. That is perhaps one of the reasons why we will now have a free vote.
The most disturbing aspect of the Government’s change of position is that it is not based on a change of heart. As a number of hon. Members have pointed out, the only reason we have been given is that the Government fear a possible EU legal challenge some time in future. The Minister was quoted in The Independent today, I believe, as saying that
“a total ban on wild animals in circuses might well be seen as disproportionate action under the European Union services directive and under our own Human Rights Act”.
If that is true, it is hard to imagine anything more embarrassing for the House. The Government are effectively saying that even though they want to do this minor thing, and even though the public would support such a move, they cannot do it because they no longer have the authority. What does that say about Parliament, democracy or this country?
Let me put it another way. What is the point of making promises up and down the country in the run-up to an election on the campaign trail if we no longer have the authority to fulfil even the most basic promise? That makes a mockery of parliamentary democracy in this country.
Mr Offord
I am sure my hon. Friend will recall the issue of prisoners’ voting rights, when the European Union and the European Court of Human Rights told us we were not allowed to deny them those rights. I was pleased that hon. Members, particularly Government Members, had the opportunity to show the will of Parliament. This is an opportunity for us to show our will again.
Zac Goldsmith
I absolutely accept that point, and there are other examples too. We had a debate a month ago on fish discards, and the House unanimously agreed a resolution requiring that the Government veto any reforms to the common fisheries policy unless they included our reasserting control over the 12 miles around our coast. It remains to be seen whether we have the strength to show our will again, although I very much hope that we do, just as we did over prisoner votes. In this case, the legal advice is, at best, ambiguous, and I am convinced by the arguments used by a number of speakers that there is, in fact, no genuine threat at all, and that this is something that the Government should and must do. I am going to back the motion, and I hope that colleagues will do the same, if not for the wild animals themselves then simply to send a message to the public that Parliament exists, and exists for a purpose.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
For once—perhaps the only time—it is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith). I suspect that there might be many occasions on which we do not agree, but on this one we certainly do.
I want to make a short contribution because it is important that the House is seen to reflect public opinion and the views of our constituents. Like other hon. Members, I have many constituents who care passionately about animal welfare. They do not see it as part of a political agenda that they are working to for their own sake or to gain a position; they believe genuinely in what they argue. I pay particular tribute to one of my constituents, Maureen Rankin from Kilmarnock, who over the years has done a huge amount of work on the issue of wild animals in circuses. I am glad that the tone of debate has moved on from what was a fairly sparky beginning to starting to find consensus across the House and political parties. That is what the public are looking for on an issue such as this. There will be times when we disagree, and there will be nuances and differences.
Nia Griffith
My hon. Friend will be well aware that the Labour Government allowed a free vote on tail docking. Does she agree that her constituents would expect there to be an automatic free vote on an issue of this importance, which is cross-party rather than party political?
Cathy Jamieson
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. I certainly was glad to hear, during the debate, that the Government have decided to offer a free vote, because it gives Members the opportunity genuinely to reflect the views of their constituents.
The arguments for the ban have been well rehearsed during the debate, so I do not want to go over them all again. It is important to recognise that the arguments being made by organisations such as OneKind, Animal Defenders International and the Born Free Foundation arise out of the view that has grown up over the years that it is no longer acceptable for animals to be used for entertainment in circuses. After many years in politics, albeit in another Parliament, I am glad to be with 95% of the public rather than trying to change opinion and argue my case, which was the position I was in when I first entered politics. It has been mentioned that several local authorities, including in Scotland, have already decided not to allow circuses with wild animals.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that despite some of the doom and gloom, including in my city, when local authorities took that step about 20 years ago—people said, “Well, that will be the end of circuses in the city”—we have seen some superb circuses every year since?
Cathy Jamieson
My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. In Edinburgh, Fife and my local authority area in Ayrshire, there was cross-party support for not allowing circuses with wild animals on to council land, but the local authorities I know of, particularly in Scotland, want to take further measures to ensure not only that such circuses are not allowed on their land but that they cannot enter other locations in the council area.
Mention was also made in the opening speech of the Scottish Government’s position. My understanding is that the new Scottish Government are sympathetic to a ban. However, when I questioned the previous Scottish Government last year on their position, they said that they were awaiting the results of the DEFRA consultation. Securing a vote today and, for once, taking the lead on this issue would not just send a powerful message to England and Wales, but would be helpful to colleagues in the Scottish Parliament who want a ban enacted there.
Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)
The hon. Lady may also be aware that colleagues have tabled a motion in the Northern Ireland Assembly on banning wild animals in circuses, but when I corresponded with the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development I was told that the Department was looking to DEFRA to take a lead and establish the principle.
Cathy Jamieson
The hon. Lady makes a valid point. The devolved Administrations have powers that they can use, but on issues such as this, which are important across the UK, it is important that DEFRA Ministers show leadership.
I understand that the Minister may be in a difficult position. It is always difficult if a Minister has strongly held personal views but the advice that they receive—legal advice, or advice from others in the Department or civil servants, or even from higher up their political party—does not correspond with those views. I hope that the strength of feeling shown across the House today will give the Minister the opportunity to give us hope that the Government might be able to move if this vote is passed. That is certainly what my constituents who have been writing to me all week expect. We have a consensus building in the public’s mind. It is time to show a consensual approach and, come voting time, to ensure that this afternoon’s vote is registered in support of public opinion, the organisations that have campaigned over many years and, most of all, the animals who would otherwise continue to be at risk.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. As the House can see, several Members are still trying to speak. The wind-ups will start at half-past 5, so if Members can show restraint and reduce their five minutes themselves—perhaps to three and a half minutes—everybody might get in.
Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)
I will try to be brief. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) on calling this debate, which gives me the opportunity to introduce the House to Donkey, who is a Barbary macaque who now lives in my constituency—if Members want to see what he looks like, I would be happy to show them afterwards.
Donkey’s story is not a happy one. Caught as a youngster and smuggled into Europe from Morocco, probably via Spain, Donkey wound up as a circus performer. Donkey suffered years of abuse in the circus, where he was beaten and forced to perform in front of large crowds. He was castrated, to avoid him becoming aggressive towards his captors, and denied the company of others of his kind, which causes immense mental and emotional suffering in all primates. All primates are highly social animals. Maternal deprivation is known not only to hinder psychological development, but to have physiological consequences, such as abnormal brain development. Donkey displays all those damaging signs: he has very poor social skills and is underdeveloped for a monkey of his age.
Donkey will never be able to return to the wild, owing to the damage he has sustained, but he now lives with friends of his own species. I hope that in time Donkey will be able to live a fairly fulfilled life in my constituency, at the Wild Futures monkey sanctuary near Looe. I would like to give a quick plug to the monkey sanctuary, which does fantastic work. If hon. Members are down our way during the recess, they should pop in and see the sanctuary, because Donkey and all his friends would love to see them. More importantly, the entrance fee and donations will feed him and other rescued primates at the centre.
Please remember Donkey, and the message that he cannot bring to the debate himself. It is time to ban wild animals in all circuses, so that the terrible life that Donkey has suffered need not be repeated. This is why I will support the motion.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray), who has spoken up for animals such as Donkey that cannot speak up for themselves. It is also a pleasure to speak in this important debate, and I congratulate the hon. Members for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) and for Colchester (Bob Russell) and my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) on bringing it before the House. There is overwhelming public support for the introduction of a ban on the use of wild animals in circuses, and it is crucial that we have a vote on this motion today. I am pleased to hear from the hon. Member for The Wrekin that there is to be a free vote across the whole House. That is what the country is asking for on this issue, and it is what the country should have.
There are only three circuses left in the UK that use wild animals in performances. It has been recognised that to use them for human entertainment is unethical and unjustifiable, and that it should therefore be opposed. The previous Government consulted the country on a ban on the use of wild animals in circuses in 2009, and the consultation closed in March 2010. It received more than 10,000 responses, 94.5% of which supported a ban. That illustrates the extent of public opinion, which has been reflected in our postbags over the past couple of weeks.
Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)
I have received just one item of correspondence from someone who is against a ban—he is not a constituent of mine; he was writing from an address in Dorset—but I have had hundreds of e-mails and letters from my constituents calling for a ban.
Nic Dakin
I have received no correspondence opposing a ban. Indeed, we have heard from only one Member this afternoon adopting a different point of view. It is good that that point of view has been aired, because it is important in democratic debates that all points of view are heard.
I am particularly pleased to see a good turnout of Lib Dems for this debate. I suspect that they feel a certain empathy with circus animals, as an endangered species being kept against their will for the entertainment of others. [Laughter.] But this is a serious issue, and if the motion is carried today, the Government should listen to hon. Members on both sides of the House and to members of the public. They should listen to what the British people are saying, and they should stop clowning about and introduce a ban on wild animals in circuses.
Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con)
As a child, I used to get rather excited by the prospect of a visit to the circus; one reason was that I wanted to see all the exotic animals that I could not normally get close to, apart from those that I saw in zoos, which in those days were rather caged affairs. Obviously, however, things have changed. We are all now entertained by brilliant films on TV and in cinemas that contain amazing footage of wild animals in their natural habitat. Most zoos are made to look rather boring in comparison with what David Attenborough shows us. Thanks to many animal welfare associations, we are also much better educated about world wildlife and how it should be treated. For those who really want to see wildlife close up, let us not forget the modern tourist industry. People can save up their pennies and take themselves off on a safari or a trip to the rainforest. These are the ways in which we can see wild animals at their best, and there really is no excuse or need for wild animals in circuses.
The more we know and understand these magnificent animals, the more we recognise that a circus tent is no place for them. Some of them might have been whipped, goaded or herded into their rather pathetic performances. I can still remember from my visits to the circus that when the lions and other big animals came in, extra security was immediately put on and a man with a whip, if not a chair, would appear. That tells us everything that we need to know. Of course these animals are not safe in the circus environment; they have to be controlled. Of course they cannot be relied on to relax and enjoy themselves; they are in an unnatural environment, surrounded on all sides by human beings, of whom they are instinctively frightened. Frankly, these animals’ continued presence in the circus ring, even if there are only about 39 of them, diminishes us all.
I know that some will argue that some animals are not, in fact, wild because they were born in captivity. We heard that this afternoon, but I do not see what difference that makes. A lion or an elephant still has natural instincts; it still needs proper space to move around in, and being driven around the country for much of the year in the back of a van is no place for these animals.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that introducing a firm ban with a firm date means that no new animals will be brought into circuses and that the circus owners will be put on notice that those currently operating in circuses will need to be retired to appropriate circumstances that suit their needs?
Angie Bray
I certainly agree that we need a ban, although I am just a little worried about whether the time frame is practical; I will come back to that issue later, if I may.
I want to put it on record that I am not in favour of banning all animals from circuses. I think that some of the more domesticated animals—dogs and ponies spring to mind—thoroughly enjoy themselves. I recall going to a charming little circus in France where a farmer, his wife, their two children, a goat and a dog held us all spellbound for about an hour. I can say that that dog and goat had a good time, getting a treat every time they did something brilliant. We know that there is room for some animals; it is the big wild animals that are the problem.
In conclusion, I want a ban on wild animals in circuses. I recognise, however, that there might be certain legal obstacles to getting that straight away. A time frame of one year is perhaps a little impractical. I am not an expert on EU law, but I know that before a ban of this sort could be introduced, there would have to be consultation and a way would have to found to re-home these 39 animals. That is why I intend to abstain this evening. However, I also put the Government on notice that I want to see a ban and want them to do whatever they must to introduce a ban as practicably as they can.
Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)
As the third signatory to this motion, I would like to congratulate my colleagues, the hon. Members for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) and for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) on their positive speeches. I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) for his bravery in the lion’s den, as the only Member thus far to speak against the motion. That takes courage, and I congratulate him on that.
I detect the fingerprints of No. 10 Downing street on this. I have tabled a parliamentary question and I await the written answer with great interest. Opposing live animal acts in circuses is something that I first got involved with on 15 May 1971, when, as a borough councillor of 48 hours, I was contacted by Mr Murphy of Barrack street who urged me to get circuses banned from Colchester. I put that to the council, but I was a lone voice and nothing happened. A few years later, however, Colchester became one of the first local authorities in the country to ban circuses from its land and buildings. Unfortunately, we need a nationwide Government ban, because we still have a landowner in the town who I regret to say allows his land to be used for circuses. Circuses are barbaric; they have no place in a civilised society of the 21st century.
Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and briefly congratulate him on his long-standing work on this and other animal protection issues. I would also like to say that many of our councils led the way, but do not have quite enough power, as my hon. Friend said. I think we should therefore move on this issue as soon as possible.
Bob Russell
I am grateful for those comments.
To follow up the issue of what happens to the remaining 39 circus animals, I am pretty confident that this country’s zoos will be ready and available to accommodate them. Colchester zoo took in three elephants from a circus, and Rolf Harris was there to open the spirit of Africa enclosure . The bull elephant was particularly pleased because he was then put with four cows, which he had to look after. He was very happy.
There are circuses that we can support, however, such as the Chinese and Moscow state circuses, as well as small local circuses involving just a few people. The Netherlands national circus is currently performing in Ipswich, then next week in Lowestoft and the week after that in Colchester, and I intend to be there, subject to confirmation that it is, indeed, animal free as I am advised.
Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)
I support the motion as it is high time we banned animals in circuses. I have been worried about the stance that has been taken and I am glad the Government Whips have now given us a free vote on this, because animal welfare is a moral issue and Members on both sides of the House want a ban on wild animals in circuses.
The plank of the Government’s argument relating to Austria is fragile, and I fear that it might be sawn off at some stage. I would prefer us to take a much firmer stance by going for a ban and letting somebody challenge it if they want to, because I do not think that anybody will do so.
Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con)
Given the position my hon. Friend has set out, why has he decided to be the lead signatory to the amendment to the motion? If my understanding is correct, the amendment would have prevented any ban from being introduced until some supposed EU legal issue was resolved.
Neil Parish
I will deal with that later, but I have previously stated that we should challenge the court ruling in the Austria case.
There has been too much talk today about the process of government and who is to blame and who is not to blame, instead of getting to grips with the welfare issues of animals in circuses. If we do have to take note of the case in Austria—
Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con)
My hon. Friend talks about process, but does he not agree that the best thing to do is vote in favour of the motion and get the ban put in place, job done?
Neil Parish
Yes, but putting the ban in place will take a little while, so meanwhile we should consider certain animal welfare issues. The conditions endured by circus animals when being transported are totally wrong. The conditions need to be greatly improved. There must be much more comprehensive inspection of that, which would lead to much greater costs on such circuses. Therefore, a great deal of pressure can be applied in the meantime, before we introduce a ban.
I may disagree with the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell), but in a democracy he has the right to raise them. He talked about the fact that many of these animals have performed for many years. They will need to be rehabilitated and found homes, so let us use the time available to good effect in that regard.
We want the Government to listen to the arguments on a total ban. I do not know what the Minister is going to say, but I would like him to say that the Government have thought again and that they are minded to introduce a ban in the future. That is what we want. In this day and age, we cannot have wild animals in circuses. Many of us also know about the pain that can be caused by the amount of training those animals are put through and the way in which they are trained to perform in unnatural ways.
Neil Parish
Perhaps I am being criticised for taking a pragmatic view on this. I want a ban and the only reason for the amendment was that the requirement in the motion that a ban would have to be in place in 12 months might not have settled the legal situation. We do not want to give the Government an excuse not to move towards a ban.
Mark Pritchard
To which legal cases is my hon. Friend referring? There are currently none in England, the United Kingdom or in European law. There is only one possible case in Austria. Is he, as a former Member of the European Parliament and allegedly a Eurosceptic, suggesting that we should wait for the decisions of domestic courts in other capitals, let alone in European courts, before making our own decisions in this country?
Neil Parish
I covered that point at the beginning of my speech when I said that the case in Austria is not a good one on which to put the whole plank of the Government’s reasons for why we cannot ban the use of wild animals in circuses. As far as I am concerned, the only reason for the amendment was to give the Government time to come forward with a ban. Clearly, there is a move from all parts of the House to ban the use of wild animals in circuses. Now we want to hear from the Minister very clearly what the timetable for that will be, how we are going to deal with the court case and how we will move to a ban as quickly as possible.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. There are four minutes and three speakers left—we must finish by 5.30 pm.
Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
I am not a fan of wild animals in circuses, I would not take my children to see them or go myself and I think that the quicker we can move to a situation in which they do not exist the better. I do not even like dancing dogs on Britain’s Got Talent very much—I think it is demeaning for the owner and the dog—so I strongly sympathise with many of the arguments that have been put forward this afternoon. However, what I like even less is taking a populist route because it seems to be the easy one against, sometimes, principle and evidence. We are charged, whether we like it or not, with taking a responsible approach to these things, which is sometimes difficult in the face of overwhelming and well-targeted pressure on us as MPs. It seems to me that we are making this more difficult for ourselves by confusing an argument about ethics and morality with one about legal enforceability. This has been complicated by the haunting image of possible challenges in the European Court.
However, let me curtail my contribution. Regulation can work. I simply do not buy the argument that it would somehow open up a Pandora’s box. If we are sensible about regulation, not only can we improve animal welfare standards and move to a situation in which animals in circuses are a thing of the past, but we can do it without putting the taxpayer at risk of having to fork out for a lengthy, time-consuming and very expensive EU challenge. We can do it in reasonably quick time and without the need for primary legislation. The Government were right about this 10 days ago when the Minister spoke in Westminster Hall and nothing has changed in the intervening 10 days. It seems to me that if he is genuine to his word, as I am sure he is, we can achieve everything that everybody in the House wants without all the nonsense, cost and threat to the taxpayer that we have been talking about. I shall be voting against the motion tonight and commending the Government’s approach.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. There are two minutes left. I call Tessa Munt.
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
Nothing short of a ban seems to be the answer to making this absolutely clear. The views of many organisations have been represented in the debate this afternoon, but I would like to pay particular tribute to Virginia McKenna and the Born Free Foundation, who are observing the debate from the Gallery this afternoon.
I want to make two quick points. First, the Government’s proposals for licensing and regulation are still going to be subject to a legal challenge and I do not see how that would be any different. I refer the Minister to an answer to a parliamentary question in the European Parliament that was answered by Commissioner Potocnik. The question was:
“What is the Commission doing to enforce animal welfare standards in European zoos and circuses?”
In his answer, Commissioner Potocnik dealt with the question of zoos and then said quite clearly:
“Circuses are specifically excluded from the scope of the Zoos Directive, and are not covered by any other EU legislation. Therefore, the welfare of circus animals remains the responsibility of the Member States.”
That was at the end of May.
My constituent, Gerry Cottle, ran away at the age of 15 to join the circus, and very successful he has been. I spoke to him yesterday. He said that the circus has moved on and times have changed, and that public opinion was against “the dinosaurs” who use wild animals in circuses. We do not need them. He runs a successful circus without animals, creating good old-fashioned theatre and entertainment.
There is no way that any circus owner could say that banning animals from circuses was a human rights issue because it caused loss of livelihood. Many circuses operate without animals, which is a testament to progress. I support the motion and I trust that the Minister will hear the clamour for a ban both in this place and outside.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I call Mr Gavin Shuker for the Opposition. He has 10 minutes.
Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)
I congratulate the hon. Members for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) and for Colchester (Bob Russell) and my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) on their work in securing the debate. It is right that it was secured by the Backbench Business Committee, given the depth of feeling on both sides of the House.
It is appropriate to mention some of the Members on the Government Benches who made brave speeches, specifically the hon. Members for Hendon (Mr Offord), for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech), for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray), for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie Bray), for Colchester and for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish). In many ways, they are lions led by donkeys. I am pleased that we as a party and as an Opposition stand firmly behind them. Indeed, almost every speaker supported a ban, with the exception of the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) who looks like the man who bet everything on red but it came up black.
Today, the Minister has the opportunity to offer some kind of leadership. Unfortunately for him, however, it seems that the position has changed since he took his seat in the Chamber today. That is a shame, because we want to hear a justification for his current position.
Let me be clear: there is a majority in the House in favour of a ban. The public consultation launched by Labour found massive support for a ban. I have no desire to overturn the cross-party consensus on the issue, but it raises serious questions about DEFRA’s decision making. A new Government come in, and what do we see? Yet more dither and delay, instead of a clear, consistent position from them. I direct Members to the Minister’s answer on 19 May, when, outrageously, he said:
“If people are really so opposed to the use of wild animals in circuses, I suggest that they do not go to the circus.”—[Official Report, 19 May 2011; Vol. 528, c. 499.]
What a pathetic response.
Indeed, the Department’s entire response has not been great—to say the least. First, there was a year of delay in which we saw shocking images of Anne the elephant being beaten. Who knows what else has gone unseen? Secondly, we saw DEFRA dithering from the top, because in April, the ban was on. The Secretary of State had made her decision, and she briefed the Sunday Express that a ban would be introduced, but within a few weeks, she had made her first U-turn. The Secretary of State’s favourite interviewer without coffee—the Prime Minister—had intervened in DEFRA affairs once again and now the ban was off.
Thirdly, we saw the incompetence of a Department that many have described as in special measures. New decision made, along came the policy-based evidence-making process. The Secretary of State provided a written ministerial statement outlining her reasoning. In it, she cited an Austrian court case that did not yet exist. A second statement tried to fix that. She owned up: the Government only thought the case was on after reading a press release. Dragged to the House for an urgent question, there was no apology for misleading Members, just the tired excuses we have come to expect—this time, amazingly, about the Human Rights Act. Talk about digging a hole.
The Government refuse to publish their legal advice, although, of course, they remain happy to hide behind it. The Government-backed amendment to the motion, quite rightly not selected, calls for a ban to be introduced as soon as legal impediments are resolved. That gives rise to some confusion. First, the Government say that there are no legal impediments, then that there are overwhelming legal impediments, and now that there are resolvable legal impediments. That is less a U-turn and more a giant arc, gobbling up and spitting out unprepared Ministers in its path. Now there is to be a free vote: U-turn complete.
Most depressing of all, the Government were right the first time; there is nothing wrong with banning the use of wild animals in circuses and that ban should be introduced right now. The Government argue that a ban may contravene the European services directive, but that is incorrect. Last month, the EU Commissioner for the Environment reiterated that the EU’s position had not changed, saying that
“the welfare of circus animals remains the responsibility of the Member States.”
The Government state that there is a lack of scientific evidence in support of a ban. Again, that is not correct. A global research study supported by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals concludes that
“species of non-domesticated animals commonly kept in circuses appear the least suited to a circus life”.
The Government argue that a ban requires primary legislation. Again, that is incorrect. DEFRA’s impact assessment makes it clear that powers under section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 are sufficient to introduce a ban.
Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)
Those are fine words, but will the hon. Gentleman explain to the House why the Labour party did not do something about the issue when it was in power?
Gavin Shuker
I appreciate the opportunity to say what we did when in government. We banned animal testing for cosmetics. We banned the process of battery farm eggs. We created new powers to stop animal cruelty. We banned tail docking. We stopped the trade in seals. We ended fur farming, and we passed the hunt ban. I am proud to stand on that record as a Labour Member of Parliament. We introduced the 2006 Act that allows the Minister to ban the practice of wild animals performing in circuses, and that is exactly what we are calling for today.
Gavin Shuker
I am delighted to say that we had a clear commitment to do that in this Parliament. As a Member of Parliament, I share the desire, expressed across the House, to implement the ban. We must be clear that the barrier to implementation is the Tory-led Government, who found the roadblocks in the first place. I hope that we will hear much more about that.
Mark Pritchard
Has not the strength of the debate been the cross-party consensus? Notwithstanding the right of any Member to make points about this Government or previous Governments, that strength has been shown in all Members working together, reflecting the will of Parliament and the British people.
Gavin Shuker
I am glad to associate myself with those sentiments. There are serious questions to be asked about the process—we will certainly ask them at a later date—but the most important thing about tonight’s vote is that we follow the Members who raised the issue in the first place through the Division Lobby and ensure that a ban is enacted.
One of my major concerns if we do not pass the motion is that circuses are saying that the Government’s licensing scheme could produce an increase in the number of performing animals in British circuses. Surely, that alone must give us pause for thought. The issue is straightforward, and the solution is pretty clear. The Government should introduce a ban under the previous Government’s Animal Welfare Act 2006.
Events have moved on in the House since we started the debate. It now seems clear that there will be a free vote. I am glad to hear that because I believe that, on such issues of conscience, we are strongest as a House when we stand together against practices that have no place in a modern society. Perhaps more importantly, I believe that the DEFRA ministerial team had the right position in the first place. They instinctively felt that a ban was the right way go on the issue. For that reason, I should like to encourage them to go through the Lobby with us tonight to make a clear and definite case about the kind of society that we seek to create, and in doing so, we will be much stronger as a House together.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Before I call the Minister, may I suggest that we have until five to 6 before I call the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard)?
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)
I will forgo the obvious opportunity to use many of the numerous witticisms that I have heard during the past 48 hours about my appearance here, but I will start by simply trying to say that I will walk the tightrope over the next 10 or 15 minutes.
As several hon. Members have shown, this debate has demonstrated that, with one or two exceptions, there is passionate agreement across the Floor of the House that we should see an end to the use of wild animals in circuses. I assure the House that nothing divides us on that front. When we came to office a year ago, we had the advantage of receiving the results of the consultation to which the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) referred, and we had to examine all the options. A ban was one of those. We did not have the advantage of the advice that he received because that was confidential to the previous Government.
We had a new set of advice from our lawyers and we had to use that in coming to our view. It clearly indicated that there were serious risks of a legal challenge should we opt for an outright ban, despite our being minded to do so. I will return to the detail of those legalities because that has occupied much of the afternoon’s debate, but it is for that reason and in the interest of avoiding a long judicial process that we concluded that the quickest way to reduce and, we hoped, eliminate cruelty to wild animals in our circuses would be a robust licensing system, which might well result in circuses deciding to stop keeping such animals.
My hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard), who moved the motion, has shown diligence in pursuit of his cause. However, I am afraid his dedication has allowed him to misrepresent a number of issues, and some of that has been repeated by other hon. Members. The first is the Commission’s view about whether this is entirely a matter for member states. I remind the House that the view of a Commissioner is simply that. I have seen the letter sent by the Commission to the Captive Animals Protection Society, and I understand that that is the view of the Commission, but as I said in the House last time we debated the subject, it is ultimately the courts that interpret legislation, and our lawyers have to advise us not about what the Commission’s view is, but how they believe a court might interpret the legislation.
Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)
Had there been time for me to be called, I would have made the point that cruelty, in the sense of physical cruelty to animals, is not the only issue. People’s experience of wild animals is much richer through the internet, television and, indeed, the Cheltenham science festival, making it unnecessary for animals to be kept in captivity. There is increasing scientific evidence that there are complex emotions and intelligence in animals, especially intelligent animals such as elephants, which make any kind of systematic confinement inherently cruel, even if physical cruelty is not present.
Mr Paice
I shall make a few more points before I give way. My hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin listed, as did other hon. Members, a range of other countries that have allegedly banned the use of wild animals in circuses. Many of those references were incorrect. A number of countries have selectively banned certain species. A number have rightly banned wild caught wild animals, which is a different issue. My hon. Friend and others speculated that licensing might mean more animals in circuses. I find that difficult to believe. I note the comments from the circuses that were mentioned, but we are not talking just about issuing a licence. We are talking about very tough licensing conditions for keeping such animals.
Gavin Shuker
I am sure the whole House would like to hear what those tough licensing conditions would be. If they incorporate travelling for weeks on end up and down motorways chained in a cage and going from place to place, many people would conclude that they are not worth the paper they are written on.
Mr Paice
That may well be the judgment that the hon. Gentleman and many others—and probably even I—would come to, but as we have clearly stated, we would go out to consultation in order to form a view of what those standards should be.
Let me conclude my comments on the introductory speech of my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin. He never made any attempt to justify using section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006. I shall refer to that in a little more detail. The hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse also referred to that. I respect him immensely. We shared a mutual respect when I shadowed him, and I think that remains the case, but I must correct his memory on the previous European case, without going through all the detail. He remarked earlier that the circus lost against the ombudsman, but that is not the case; the ombudsman made a damning criticism of maladministration against the Commission, based on the view that it had abdicated its responsibility to maintain the treaties by not interfering in the rights of member states, so there is a distinction.
The hon. Gentleman reminded us of the 2006 Act. I served on the Bill Committee, as did the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith)—I remember her efforts at that time to introduce a ban, which she described today. It was resisted by the Minister at the time, the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), and by Lord Rooker in the other place. While the Bill was on Report on 8 March 2006, the right hon. Member for Exeter stated:
“I intend to use a regulation under clause 10 of the Animal Welfare Bill to ban the use in travelling circuses of certain non-domesticated species”.—[Official Report, 8 March 2006; Vol. 443, c. 61WS.]
That was in March 2006, over four years before the general election. Whatever the good intent of the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse, the fact is that his Government did nothing, despite that declared intent.
Mr Paice
I am coming to that exact point.
If the House were to approve the motion, the Government would have to respect that, but as a Minister I am duty bound to lay before it the possible consequences—I stress the word “possible”—of that decision not only for the Government, but for the House, taxpayers and possibly the animals that we are concerned about.
Mr Paice
No I will not; the hon. Gentleman was not here for much of the debate.
The legal advice we have received on section 12 of the 2006 Act is that although it could be used as the basis for a total ban, it is highly likely that we would be challenged on the basis that an outright ban was a disproportionate measure for improving welfare in circuses. That is exactly the same advice as the previous Government received in the Radford report, which they commissioned after the discussions in 2006. The report makes it absolutely clear that there was insufficient evidence to ensure that the animals’ welfare could be improved only by a ban and not by other means. That was the Radford report’s advice, and it remains the legal advice.
Mr Paice
No. I will finish with the legal matters before giving way again.
Obviously I cannot tell the House that there would be a challenge, or what the result would be, but we do have to note the advice. The Radford review concluded in 2007 that no scientific evidence existed to show that circuses by their nature compromised the welfare of wild animals. It was on that basis that it concluded that a ban on the grounds of welfare would be disproportionate in the absence of evidence that welfare was compromised.
There are two further risks from that action: the cost to the taxpayer and the risk that a court might agree to suspend the ban until legal proceedings had concluded. In other words, although the law itself might have been passed, nothing would have changed for the animals themselves.
Mr Paice
I am well aware of who wishes to intervene.
I turn now to the European aspects of the legislation. The European legislation would apply whether we use primary or secondary legislation to implement a ban. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, in her statement on 19 May, informed the House of the error in referring to an action currently before the Courts in the European Union, and I repeat our regret over that error. Nevertheless, I can inform the House, as has already been stated, that as I predicted on the same day, a case has been laid by Circus Krone against the Austrian Government in the Austrian constitutional court. We know not the outcome, but the fact that that case has been laid supports the legal advice that we have previously reported to the House, namely that a wholesale ban may well be counter to section 16 of the EU services directive, and that any subsequent legal challenge would have the same consequences that I have described.
Stephen Phillips
I am extremely grateful to the Minister for giving way, and it is well known in the House that I do not often give free legal advice. He refers to the advice that he has received, and I have no doubt that that is the advice he has received, but I have to tell him that in my opinion that advice is wrong, and that, having seen the quality of some of the advice that the Government receive from the European Scrutiny Committee, it is about time that outside legal advice was taken.
Mr Paice
No doubt we could lay every lawyer in the House end to end and not reach a definite conclusion. I note my hon. and learned Friend’s comments, and obviously I respect them.
May I turn to the nub of the issue? When hon. Members decide in a few minutes’ time how to react to the motion before us, I hope that they will pay heed to what I have said about the risks attached to it. It is of course a matter for the House to decide, but I hope that hon. Members will not focus on whether we ban or, indeed, wish to end cruelty, because I hope that there is no doubt about our desire on the latter point, but focus on how we go about achieving the end to cruelty in circuses, on which we are I believe united.
Although a complete ban, as advocated in the motion, might well achieve that end in time, there are, as I have tried to describe, significant risks in taking it forward with the deadline and using the legal mechanism to which my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin has referred. That is why the Government have come forward with a proposal that might achieve the same end with more certainty. Nevertheless, as I say, the House has a right to decide otherwise.
I understand and fully respect the very high emotions involved, including on the issue of the ethics of animals performing for human entertainment.
Mr Paice
I am sorry, but I am rapidly coming to the end of my time.
I share the views of hon. Members who are concerned about the use of performing animals, but I also have to react to and respect the legislation that we have enacted in this House in the past, and the reality is that section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 does not allow ethical considerations to justify a ban, so I hope that in considering how to vote hon. Members will consider those points.
The Government are determined to stamp out cruelty to and the bad welfare of animals in circuses. We have put forward our proposals, and it is of course for the House to decide that we should perhaps reconsider them, but I ask the House to consider the legislative background against which it might ask us to do so.
Mark Pritchard
I pay tribute to and thank the Minister, who has been very brave and courageous today and deserves a parliamentary medal for a valiant attempt to defend the indefensible, given his personal position, which he stated clearly on the Floor of the House on 19 May. I thank also all Members from all parts of the House for a very vibrant debate that has informed the House on a range of issues relating to what I and, more importantly, 92% of the public believe is an important issue.
This nation once led the world in animal welfare. There is no reason we cannot drag ourselves into the 21st century and regain and reclaim those global animal welfare credentials. That is why I hope that Members will support my motion.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House directs the Government to use its powers under section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 to introduce a regulation banning the use of all wild animals in circuses to take effect by 1 July 2012.
Business without Debate
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (FINANCE (No. 3) BILL)
17:57 - The House divided: - Ayes: 140 / Noes: 7 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
We now come to motion 3, which can be debated until 6 pm.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. On the Order Paper it says that there will be no debate before 6 pm on the motion on the draft House of Lords Reform Bill. Can you guide us on the correct procedure in terms of whether this motion can go ahead now or whether it will be taken after 6 o’clock?
Mr Deputy Speaker
It can be debated or the Question can be put.
Draft House of Lords Reform Bill (Joint Committee)
Motion made, and Question put,
That this House concurs with the Lords Message of 7 June, that it is expedient that a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons be appointed to consider the draft House of Lords Reform Bill presented to both Houses on 17 May (Cm 8077).
That a Select Committee of thirteen Members be appointed to join with the Committee appointed by the Lords to consider the draft House of Lords Reform Bill (Cm 8077).
That the Committee should report on the draft Bill by 29 February 2012.
That the Committee shall have power—
(i) to send for persons, papers and records;
(ii) to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House;
(iii) to report from time to time;
(iv) to appoint specialist advisers;
(v) to adjourn from place to place within the United Kingdom.
That Gavin Barwell, Mr Tom Clarke, Ann Coffey, Bill Esterson, Oliver Heald, Tristram Hunt, Mrs Eleanor Laing, Dr William McCrea, Dr Daniel Poulter, Laura Sandys, John Stevenson, John Thurso and Malcolm Wicks be members of the Committee.—(Bill Wiggin.)
Dental Bleaching
Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con)
I thank the Minister for being present to respond to the debate. I understand that he is in some matrimonial difficulty because I have delayed him here this evening and it is his wife’s birthday. If it is any compensation, I am sure that I can arrange for his wife to be given a free bleaching treatment quite soon—on the understanding that he explains to her that it is free, so that he does not get away with allowing her to think that she has been presented with an expensive gift.
Let me first declare a simple interest and then add to it, because of the specifics of the debate. I am a qualified and practising—although admittedly very part-time—dentist. I am also a member of the British Dental Association, the British Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry, the British Endodontic Society, and the British Dental Bleaching Society. That explains why I am a target for some 36,000 dental practices which are leaning on this issue. I hope that the Minister will bear with me.
The Minister will be aware that tooth bleaching by dentists has been around for a long time. I first used it about 30 years ago. My tutor was my now retired dental partner, who qualified during the second world war, and his tutor was his father, who qualified shortly after the first world war. Dental bleaching has therefore been used for more than 100 years. In the early days we used a 30% solution of hydrogen peroxide, known in those days as Superoxol. It was extremely destructive of soft tissues, which needed to be protected. In those days we used something called a rubber dam, which was a small sheet of latex rubber with holes placed in it so that the teeth could poke through. The teeth could then be bleached, and the soft tissues were looked after.
The aim of bleaching is to remove discolourations from the teeth without harming the teeth themselves. The discolourations can come from a number of sources, including tobacco, hard water, tea, coffee and, according to the actresses, red wine. Teeth may also be iatrogenically discoloured, the most famous example being tetracycline discolouration. In the early days of antibiotics, children were given an antibiotic called tetracycline, which was one of the early broad-spectrum bacteriostatic antibiotics and was widely used. Although it generally dealt with the targeted infection, if taken by children it discoloured the developing teeth, sometimes to a grotesque degree.
Second or adult teeth that have received a blow can often darken quite quickly, particularly if the individual is young. The teeth most frequently hurt in that way are the upper incisors, particularly the upper central incisors. Endodontically treated teeth often darken, particularly if the operator has been unable to remove, or has not removed, all the pulpal tissue from the internal dentine.
Nowadays, dental restorations are generally of a more cosmetically acceptable material. If someone is to have a filling, it is good for it to be done in a cosmetically acceptable way. It is becoming increasingly accepted as standard practice that when composites, porcelain crowns, porcelain veneers and porcelain inlays are used for restorations, it is sensible to bleach the teeth first. That achieves a benchmark colour to which the new restoration is then colour-matched. As the patient’s teeth become discoloured over subsequent years from all the hazards, including red wine, it is possible to use that same process to bring the teeth back to that original benchmark level.
Dental bleaching is not available on the national heath, but I believe that in some cases it should be, because it is less destructive than other options. To provide a simple example, if an NHS patient has badly tetracycline-stained teeth, the only option on the NHS to restore normal appearance is extensive crowns or veneers. They are destructive to the teeth and much more costly, and in time they will need regular replacement. The better approach is dental bleaching, which leaves the teeth intact and can produce an acceptable colour.
Techniques of dental bleaching have improved. First, the dentist has to check that the patient’s teeth are in good order; then there are essentially two different bleaching techniques available. The first is the so-called home technique, whereby after inspecting the patient, the dentist constructs close-fitting trays that the patient wears for a period of time at home. The bleach trays are designed to hold the gel against the teeth but away from the soft tissues.
The second method is so-called power bleaching, which is done in the surgery and generally uses much stronger hydrogen peroxide concentrations. The soft tissues are protected by either the aforementioned rubber dam or, more generally nowadays, by a foam that is set by an ultraviolet light. Some techniques use a light or heat source, although I personally believe that that is more for the image of the procedure as the patient sees it than to benefit the process.
Nowadays, hydrogen peroxide is generally delivered in varying strengths of carbamide peroxide. Those strengths vary from 10% to 38% when used in the surgery. The actual hydrogen peroxide concentration delivered is lower. For example, 10% carbamide peroxide delivers approximately a 6% concentration of hydrogen peroxide. As logic will tell the Minister, the higher the concentration, the faster the bleaching, but the more likely it is to produce sensitive teeth.
I hope that the Minister understands from what I have said that the procedure should be in the hands of a trained dental professional, as misuse can cause harm, sometimes extensive harm. Even bleaching at home must be under the direction of a dental care professional. Recent decisions of the General Dental Council have stated that dental bleaching by trained dental professionals is a part of professional dental treatment. That has been endorsed by the Secretary of State for Health and the Health Ministers of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
The reason for this preamble is to explain to the Minister that the dangers of the material involved when it is misused must be understood and taken into consideration. Organisations such as the British Dental Bleaching Society run certification training courses to ensure that the dental professional teams undertaking the treatment are properly trained. Unfortunately, a number of non-dental professionals, particularly in beauty salons, are illegally bleaching teeth. Sadly, some of those individuals are using a material called chlorine dioxide, which, although it produces an initial appearance of whitening teeth, actually badly damages them.
As the Minister will be aware, the fly in the ointment is the European cosmetics directive, which restricts the sale of tooth-bleaching materials containing more than 0.1% hydrogen peroxide. Clearly that makes eminent sense when applied to over-the-counter medicines, but from a dental treatment point of view 0.1% hydrogen peroxide is absolutely useless.
The enforcement of the cosmetics directive is in the hands of local government trading standards officers on behalf of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Most trading standards officers recognise that higher concentrations of hydrogen peroxide delivered as part of dental treatment by dental professions are completely different from over-the-counter sales or the actions of non-dental professionals. The directive is inappropriate, because tooth bleaching is accepted as part of dentistry.
In 2005, the European Commission scientific committee on consumer products recommended that tooth-whitening products containing 0.1% to 6% hydrogen peroxide are not safe to be sold over the counter. The recommendation was that they should not be used freely, but that they are safe to be used after the approval, and under the supervision, of a dentist. Since then, the UK Government, along with most EU members, have been trying to change the directive in the light of the recommendation. However, because two or three EU members of the committee keep baulking, there has been no change, despite seven years of pressure. I understand that the Minister could reassure me tonight that the issue is to be taken above the committee, where it is expected to be passed—at last—by a majority vote.
However, the situation has come to a head locally, as the Minister is aware. A patient of a Hull dentist complained to Hull trading standards. Hull trading standards took samples from the dentist and asked Essex county council trading standards to investigate a firm called Dental Directory, which is a major supplier to dentists and the supplier to the Hull dentist in question. I believe that Essex trading standards officers have taken the names of other suppliers and suggested to respective trading standards organisations that they should investigate. Some did so, but others thought it through and decided that that was inappropriate.
After full consideration, Essex trading standards sent an e-mail to Dental Directory, which states:
“This Service has no issue with peroxide-based whiteners over 0.1% supplied to GDC registered dentists for use in the course of a professional whitening service conducted by a registrant. It is the view of this Service that such treatments would be regulated by the GDC.”
That is a brilliantly sensible response.
However, another big firm of suppliers, Henry Schein, has a number of different depots in different areas, which are covered by different trading standards. It has received differing instructions. Kent trading standards echoed Essex’s eminently sensible position, but Medway trading standards informed Henry Schein that it is not allowed to supply dental bleach with over 0.1% hydrogen peroxide. Needless to say, enormous pressure was applied. I suspect to the Minister’s relief, Medway has reverted to the sensible Essex county council position.
That leaves me with two simple requests for action to sort out this particular nonsense. First, I urge the Minister, if at all possible, to obtain a change in the directive, and secondly, to inform all UK trading standards that the approach taken by Essex and Kent trading standards should be the norm.
As the Minister may recall, a few moments ago I mentioned beauticians and non-registrants illegally bleaching teeth. Many of those people are dangerous. For example, a plasterer from Kent plasters walls during the day, and bleaches teeth in people’s homes in the evening, using 38% hydrogen peroxide, with no guards or safety measures. To put it bluntly, he probably burns the gum off the bone and the teeth. He is dangerous.
Others use chlorine dioxide. As the Minister’s school chemistry will tell him, when chlorine dioxide hits water, as in saliva, it turns to hydrochloric acid, and eats the enamel surface off the teeth. The initial slight whitening appearance turns, on further applications, yellow and then brown, as the dentine shows through because the enamel disappears. To put it bluntly, that simply wrecks teeth.
To add to those problems, a number of highly acidic tooth-whitening products are available over the counter for personal, home bleaching. Many are highly acidic. All the highly acidic ones are highly damaging. To my amazement, even two reputable UK pharmacies—I am not naming them for the moment—are selling such products over the counter. I am therefore also asking the Minister to assist, through trading standards, in stopping beauticians and other non-dental registrants bleaching teeth. The General Dental Council is taking action, but it does not have the strength and spread of trading standards.
In addition, will the Minister seek a ban on the use of chlorine dioxide for teeth bleaching, including on the supply of acidic, over-the-counter home bleaching materials? An awful lot of smiles on the faces of some very pretty young ladies are being wrecked in the United Kingdom.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) on securing this important debate. It is not the first time he has come to the House to campaign on this issue—he deserves a lot of credit for his persistence and determination. This is a serious issue for those adversely affected by people using certain materials they should not be using, as he explained. I also thank him for the offer to my wife—I will convey it to her later this evening.
This is a complex matter involving overlapping issues, which my hon. Friend highlighted. Particular factors to consider are: first, that the current European-derived law clearly restricts the level of hydrogen peroxide to a level at which it cannot bleach teeth. Secondly, prevailing scientific opinion on the safety of hydrogen peroxide in teeth-whitening products is out of step with current maximum limits. Thirdly, how do we most appropriately enforce the law? Fourthly, who should be undertaking teeth whitening? Should the role be reserved to dentists or should it be available from other suppliers and even for home use? Finally, there is the issue about the safe use of other substances used as an alternative to hydrogen peroxide.
Although I recognise how deeply frustrating this matter is for all involved, I will try to address these points and highlight a possible resolution of the issue. I hope that I can give my hon. Friend some satisfaction tonight, but if there are other points he wishes to make that he feels have not been covered, I will be happy to correspond with him, and if necessary meet him. There is no doubt that teeth-whitening products are cosmetic products within the meaning of the cosmetic products directive. Hon. Members will know that the UK has been pressing for a number of years on the cosmetics regulatory committee for the maximum limit for hydrogen peroxide to be increased in line with the opinion of the scientific committee on consumer products in 2005, to which my hon. Friend referred.
The scientific committee’s view was that allowing a greater percentage of hydrogen peroxide in teeth-whitening products would not be detrimental to the health of consumers. Since then, however, there have been protracted discussions in Brussels on matters of detail. We are now in the position where the European Commission has proposed a number of directives to amend the cosmetic products directive, each of which has failed. The latest was submitted to the standing committee on cosmetic products for vote by written procedure in May last year, at which time five member states voted against the proposal.
The Commission was therefore required to reconsider its proposal, and has since amended the directive. Instead of putting it back through the regulatory standing committee, the Commission intends to submit it to the Council for a council directive. Let me explain the detail of this new development. The Commission believes that use of teeth-whitening products containing more than 0.1% and up to 6% hydrogen peroxide can be considered safe if the following conditions are satisfied: first, if an appropriate clinical examination takes place to ensure the absence of risk factors; and, secondly, if exposure to the products is controlled to ensure that they are used as intended. Teeth-whitening products should therefore not be directly available to the consumer. For each cycle of use, the first use should be limited to dental practitioners or under their direct supervision. This will be communicated to the Council before the summer break, and we will support it.
I note that the General Dental Council considers tooth whitening the practice of dentistry, which is limited to GDC registrants, and this ties in with the new proposal for a directive. Indeed, earlier this year the GDC successfully prosecuted a non-registrant under the Dentists Act 1984. I would urge members of the public who have received a treatment about which they have concerns to raise it with the GDC. This also applies where alternative teeth-whitening treatments, such as chlorine dioxide, are used with unsatisfactory or damaging results. My officials will contact the Commission about the concerns of the British Dental Association over the use of chlorine dioxide in teeth-whitening products.
On the question of enforcement, I understand that there have been concerns about investigations carried out by trading standards services into the supply of teeth-whitening products, some of which contained significant levels of hydrogen peroxide—more than the newly proposed amendment would permit. Trading standards services have a duty to enforce the Cosmetic Products (Safety) Regulations 2008, but they take a risk-based approach to enforcement. To our knowledge, they have never actively targeted dentists, but where suppliers are marketing home-use kits, they have a responsibility to investigate where such products could reasonably present a risk to the consumer.
My Department neither controls nor directs trading standards services in their enforcement activities. However, officials will be making them aware of the latest developments in Brussels on the issue, so that they can understand the direction in which the law is likely to develop. Officials have also been in contact with many of the trading standards departments looking into the matter to ensure that a consistent approach will be taken. Decisions on whether to progress investigations into suppliers of home-use kits will remain decisions for local authorities. It is unfortunately true, however, that many suppliers of teeth-whitening products have already anticipated a change in the law, which has made the task of trading standards officers extremely difficult over the past few years. On a separate but closely related note, I am pleased to say that a new and specific element on enforcement will shortly be added to the red tape challenge. We would encourage businesses to go on the red tape challenge website and tell us about the problems they are having with the implementation of regulations.
In conclusion, I hope that I have been able to shed light on the latest developments, which could offer a way forward on this protracted issue. Subject to agreement in Brussels, the new directive will clarify the law. I also believe that the decision of the General Dental Council will help to clarify the position on the provision of teeth-whitening services. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for enabling me to put that on the record, and I hope that he and the dentists on whose behalf he has so persistently advocated will be pleased with it.
Question put and agreed to.
Westminster Hall
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Backbench business
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Private Finance Initiative
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)
I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss the important issue of the private finance initiative under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I thank the Minister, the Backbench Business Committee, which allowed us to hold this debate, and my many colleagues in the Chamber today.
Since its inception in the early 1990s, the private finance initiative has resulted in more than £200 billion of public debt, the cost of which will hang over the British taxpayer for decades. It has created great private fortunes and fundamentally shaped the nature of our public services. It has generated huge public outrage, as we will hear in this debate. It has raised profound issues of fairness between this generation and the next and it has affected virtually every constituency in the land and the lives of millions of people.
For reasons that I will explain, the extraordinary fact is that until now there has never been a full three-hour debate on the PFI in this House. There has never been a comprehensive assessment by the Government of the cost and benefits of the PFI or a successful attempt to collect all the relevant data about the PFI into one place. None the less, the topic of this debate could hardly be more relevant. We need to ask three questions. How did we get here? How can we make savings from the PFI for the taxpayer? How can we design a better system for the future?
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing this debate to the House. One thing I have stumbled across is that the Prison Service does not own a computer because of the PFI. It rents them all at the cost of £160 a month, which most people would think was a ludicrous state of affairs. To prevent such a thing happening again, does he not agree that the people who negotiate the contracts within Government should be surcharged if the National Audit Office or some other similar body judges that the contract that they entered into was negligent to the taxpayer?
Jesse Norman
That is an extremely interesting suggestion. I am not sure how the details would work, but I will make specific proposals for improvement to public procurement later on in my speech. I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention.
Like many colleagues, I first understood the impact of the private finance initiative through my local hospital. Starting in 1999, Hereford hospital was one of the earliest PFI projects. It was built and is currently owned and managed under a 30-year contract through a special purpose company, which is three-quarters owned by Semperian, a large PFI firm based in the City of London, and one-quarter owned by the French industrial services giant, Sodexo. Non-clinical services are contracted out to Sodexo, WS Atkins and to others.
Car parking charges at the hospital have been the source of huge local anger because they penalise patients at a very vulnerable time in their lives. They particularly hit frequent users such as those visiting in-patients and those suffering from cancer. They are socially regressive, falling relatively harder on the poor than on the rich. As I investigated further, I found that that was only the tip of the iceberg. The reason why the charges were so high was down to the PFI itself, because car parking was contracted out not once but twice—first to Sodexo and then to CP Plus, and each had its own mark-up.
Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con)
Is my hon. Friend aware that fewer than a quarter of England’s 168 NHS hospital trusts have significant PFI hospitals within them, but that those trusts account for almost two-thirds of A and E closures or proposed closures? I know from my own observation of the South London Healthcare NHS Trust how extreme the operational constraints are that face managers who have PFI hospitals within their trusts and how those hospitals force them to take decisions on operational grounds that might not be in the best interests of patients.
Jesse Norman
It seems to be true that many decisions were made from a desire to fit the financial cloth to the pocket rather than from the actual clinical needs of the patients. It is certainly true that the squeeze that these inflation-adjusted costs exert on hospitals is heavily responsible for the closure of A and E units.
Let me return now to the situation at Hereford hospital. Later PFI contracts have contained financial safeguards for the NHS, including automatic efficiency savings of 3% a year and the right for a hospital to put services out to public tender periodically. However, the Hereford contract contains neither of those safeguards. There are no automatic efficiency savings, and the contract cannot be retendered until 2029. The hospital trust is doing a valiant job, but it has little influence, legal scope or access to underlying costs which might help it to negotiate changes to the contract. Worse still, no mechanism exists by which the hospital can group together with other PFI hospitals to exercise collective influence over the PFI contractors. By contrast, Semperian has 106 PFI contracts. The imbalance in power is obvious, yet the NHS seems to have done nothing to remedy that.
For almost a year now, I have been campaigning for a voluntary rebate for taxpayers on the PFI of £500 million to £1 billion. Those are large numbers, but that goal is not unrealistic.
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)
I hope that my hon. Friend does not think that I am sitting on the other side of the Chamber because I do not support his proposal; I do support it. May I ask that those who read his words as well as those who listen to them pay some attention to the old Ryrie rules, which were supposed to limit Ministers using private finance when it was not appropriate? May I also ask my hon. Friend if he would direct the Chamber’s attention to the design, build, finance and operate Dartford crossing, which was a proper use of the private sector? There was a limit to the amount of time that the project could be charged and it had an income stream, so there was no powerful debt either.
Jesse Norman
I shall be talking about the early history of the PFI shortly. As my hon. Friend implies, the Ryrie rules were an important part of the fiscal stringency that surrounded that project. What the issue of the Dartford crossing brings out is that PFI is often successful on these economic infrastructure projects and less effective on social infrastructure projects.
Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con)
While my hon. Friend is on the subject of a voluntary rebate, is he aware of the research from the university of Adelaide showing that the average profit made when PFI equity on hospital projects is sold on was more than 66%. Is it not the case that we should be looking at something more than voluntary?
Jesse Norman
At this point, I want to keep the rebate voluntary because we are making good progress, but many Members feel that something more stringent would be appropriate. In the assessment of the profits on these equity stakes, I would caution that in some cases those equity stakes have been built up over a considerable period and one should not necessarily look at just the headline number if it is the result of a 10 or 15-year investment.
I have spoken about the campaign that we have run so far. An important feature of the rebate campaign is that at least part of any savings would remain with the public service involved. The result, therefore, would be a win not merely for the taxpayer but for local communities, which could potentially benefit from many millions of pounds in savings over the next two decades.
Let me make it clear that I am not for one moment suggesting that existing PFI contracts should be torn up, but contracts are routinely renegotiated in the private sector. The rebate would be a voluntary one, and not a haircut imposed by Government. There is a valid precedent in the code of conduct that was signed in 2002, by which the contractors agreed to share windfall refinancing gains with the taxpayer. It may be that that code of conduct needs to be further extended to the secondary market trading of equities.
What I did not expect was the level of support that I and colleagues have received from key players in the PFI industry itself. They know that something is wrong. They are aware of public concern, and they want to participate in the next generation of economic infrastructure. Having started as a solo mission, the campaign has become a cross-party movement of more than 70 Members of Parliament. We have sat down with many large PFI companies and talked in detail about the scope for savings.
Parliamentary concern about the costs of the PFI has resulted in an inquiry by the Treasury Committee and, to their huge credit, the Government are taking the idea of a rebate very seriously indeed. Ministers at every level have made clear their desire to see savings. The Cabinet Office has been looking closely at the PFI in its quest for greater efficiency across the public sector; the Ministry of Defence has announced that it is reopening three major contracts as part of its own renegotiation strategy; and the Treasury has opened discussions with the PFI industry about a new code of conduct and it has recently concluded a “deep dive” investigation of the PFI contract at the Queen’s hospital in Romford. That is the first time in 15 years that a Government have taken a forensic look at a specific PFI contract, and it sends out a clear signal of intent to dozens of other PFI projects. So we are making progress. That is the context for this debate—the first Parliamentary debate on the PFI—and I hope that colleagues from all parties will make their support loud and clear for these actions for better public services and real savings for the taxpayer.
However, to understand the present we must understand the past. How did we get to such a sorry state of affairs with the PFI? The history is surprising and damning by turns. It can be divided into three phrases: experiment; ramp-up; and standstill. The PFI was introduced in 1992 from Australia by the Major Government, which was interested in how private capital and expertise could be used to support the public services. Labour Members often deride the Conservatives for introducing the PFI, but the facts tell a very different story. The Major Government could not make the PFI work. They insisted on judging each deal on its merits, having inherited a structure from the Ryrie rules, and the merits were sometimes very thin indeed. By 1996, barely £6 billion worth of PFIs had been approved and no PFI hospitals had been approved, let alone built.
Meanwhile, Labour was split. Old Labourites denounced the PFI in traditional terms as “creeping privatisation”, but it is often forgotten that the new Labour position was the exact opposite of that. New Labour thought that the PFI was a good thing and that the problem was that the Tories had not gone ahead with it fast enough. In a speech in Parliament on 28 November 1995, Tony Blair rammed that point home repeatedly. His position was perfectly clear:
“The PFI is right in principle. We have supported it, and in many ways we have been advocating it.”
At that point, John Prescott, who is now Lord Prescott, helpfully intervened with, “We initiated it.” Blair continued:
“It should not be manipulated to cook the books of public finance.”—[Official Report, 28 November 1995; Vol. 267, c. 1077.]
On that point at least, the future Prime Minister and his Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), were agreed, since the right hon. Gentleman also remarked in the early 1990s that
“PFI is a cynical distortion of the public accounts.”
How are the mighty fallen, and in what disgrace. We are accustomed to make fun of Lord Prescott—rightly so—but at that point he spoke truer than he knew. In many ways, Labour was in fact the real originator of the PFI in its current form. In 1997, the new Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath, and his then adviser, the right hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls), were tied down by the promise that Labour had made to stick to Conservative spending plans for two years. They had committed to keep public sector net debt below 40% of GDP, according to their sustainable investment rule, but they were desperate to leave a legacy by building a huge amount of public infrastructure. They quickly spotted that PFI projects offered a way out of that quandary, because PFI liabilities could be treated as off-balance sheet and so they would never appear formally within the net debt numbers. Of course, as we now know, they later fudged the sustainable investment rule by redefining the economic cycle and then the rule was blown apart as the financial crisis took hold.
After the 1997 election, the new Paymaster General, the hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson), summarily fired Alastair Ross Goobey, the chair of the PFI panel and a man with an impeccable record of protecting shareholder value, and ramped up the PFI dramatically. Over time, an unholy alliance developed between the Labour Government and the PFI companies. PFI became the “only game in town”, as more and more projects were pushed in its direction by Government Departments that were desperate for capital spend but prevented by central Government from looking at alternatives.
That ramp-up was aided by the introduction of PFI credits, which allowed Departments to avoid running local authority PFI spend through their own budgets, thus evading responsibility for them; it was also aided by the use of high official project discount rates, which artificially privileged the PFI over other forms of procurement; and it was also aided by the unwillingness of both the Blair and Brown Governments to permit debate on the issue, conduct any overall analysis of the PFI’s cost-effectiveness or gather the full data on primary and secondary transactions, which would have allowed proper transparency and proper public accountability. Frankly, that was disgraceful behaviour.
Fast forward to today and what do we find? More than 800 PFI projects are now in place, covering every imaginable form of public infrastructure from hospitals and schools to roads and military hardware. Nearly £70 billion—not £6 billion, as was the case in 1997—of capital commitments have been made, with a total liability to the taxpayer of well over £200 billion. And—irony of ironies—new accountancy rules are in place that require PFI debt to appear in the national accounts after all. The Balls-Brown attempt to fix the books has proven to be a failure, and a costly failure to boot.
It is important to say that many PFI projects have been completed on time and within budget. There is a mixed picture. Contractors such as Jarvis have gone bust when projects failed, or taken huge financial hits. Also, conventional procurement itself has not always covered itself in glory, as demonstrated by the Eurofighter, Wembley stadium and British Library projects.
In response, it is easy to highlight the many PFI projects that have been horrendously overpriced. They range from huge deals, such as the Airtanker contract, which is now estimated to cost £1.5 billion too much, and the M25 widening, which is now estimated to cost £1 billion too much, to tiny but telling details about smaller schemes, such as the kennels at the Defence Animal Centre in Melton Mowbray, which cost more per night than rooms at the London Hilton.
An even more telling criticism emerges if we look at the overall record on the PFI. We now know that there is no general evidence that the PFI is cost-effective, or that the PFI improves the quality of buildings. Average annual maintenance costs are higher in PFI hospitals than in non-PFI hospitals. The most detailed study of PFI hospitals demonstrates that there is a large element of excess return to both debt and equity holders. Indeed, for equity holders the financial returns have been on occasion up to six times higher than the risk would justify.
There have been important secondary effects. The ramp-up of PFI projects helped to create an artificial boom in construction, which pushed up costs and over-extended the construction industry. Within the NHS, it has resulted in a huge and inflexibly designed Maginot line of hospitals, each one on inflation-adjusted contracts lasting decades, at a time when health care is moving towards more flexible models that combine specialist institutions with health and social care nearer to the home.
Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)
First and foremost, I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing such an important debate. It is a testament to his tenacity, research and expertise in this field that this debate has been attended by so many Members. I concur with his view that the PFI picture is mixed—
Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair)
Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman that interventions must be brief.
Paul Uppal
I will attempt to be brief. Does my hon. Friend concur with my view that, although the picture is mixed, the fundamental issue is that the PFIs are often short-term solutions to the long-term problems that we face in government? That is illustrated exactly by the issue with Southern Cross, which has often used sale and leaseback to finance its own businesses.
Jesse Norman
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I absolutely share his view that there is an interaction between inflation-adjusted costs and budgets, which of necessity are less able to rise, and that that interaction creates tremendous tension within these institutions. In many ways, Southern Cross is rather similar to the PFI, as the Chairman of the Health Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), reminded me this morning. The PFI costs for hospitals that I have been describing are not under the hospitals’ control, so the effect of escalating payments will be to suck up free cash flow within hospital trusts, to reduce flexibility and to impede innovation, just when those things are most needed.
We are in an unhappy mess, which is the true legacy of Messrs Brown and Balls. We shall better see the financial extent of that mess in July, when the Office for Budget Responsibility reports on the whole of Government accounts. However, the key point is that, although PFI was expensive before 2008, since 2008 it has become exorbitant. As a result of the financial crisis, PFI credit margins over gilts have risen from an average of around 0.75% to between 2.5% and 3%. Specific projects have even worse financial profiles. For example, the outline business case for the £244 million Royal Liverpool and Broadgreen University hospital projects a weighted return to investors of 8.58%. That is more than double the rate on long-term Government gilts, which is 4%. The extra cost is such that there is now a strong case for a one-year moratorium on that project, as on others, to allow proper consideration of alternatives, and I encourage the Government to consider that suggestion closely.
I shall sum up. A new settlement is needed on the PFI, and I offer three recommendations. The first is that the Government should take steps to improve their database on PFI deals, and their collection of new data. The quality and quantity of PFI data are surprisingly bad. On primary deals, that is due to inconsistencies in collection, and on secondary market deals it results from a hands-off methodology, which regards trades in PFI debt and equity as purely private transactions, outside the scope of government. All aspects of data collection should be reviewed and improved.
My second recommendation is that the Government should undertake a major consultation soon on the best means to procure and finance new infrastructure. This country badly needs new infrastructure, at a likely cost of hundreds of billions of pounds over the next few decades, and the private sector has a vital role to play. To finance that development, we need alternatives to the PFI, and several economic models are available. These include regulated asset base models developed from the utilities market, property-based models, strategic infrastructure partnerships and tax increment financing, as well as a reconsideration of conventional procurement methods. I have recently advocated the idea of a national asset trust fund as well, in a publication of my own. The consultation should also focus on how procurement is done. Should different models be used for different sectors? How can public sector institutions be made into better clients?
Thirdly, and finally, the Government should continue their current drive towards a taxpayer rebate and a new code of conduct on the PFI, if possible with every PFI company involved. Many have already engaged with the Treasury, but some—particularly some large banks, accountancy firms and legal advisers—have yet to do so. I have written to the head of every major PFI firm to put the question directly to them, and I plan to keep the House informed of their participation. The code of conduct would in due course lead to a matrix of all PFI transactions, which would show savings agreed with the private sector to ensure that they were fairly shared. That will require implementation over some months, so that the savings are genuinely realised. The Treasury could also set up a small team to advise individual hospitals and other public services on how to benefit most from the rebate process, with the team’s costs being met out of the savings generated. One thing, however, is vital. Most of any rebate should of course go back to the Treasury, and on to the taxpayer, but a portion should remain with the affected local public service, so that local people can be absolutely certain that their school, or hospital, has benefited.
I very much hope that all colleagues present—and there are many—will support these recommendations, and will join me in pressing the Government to ensure that savings are made and local people feel the benefit.
Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)
I join other hon. Members in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) on his tremendous campaign. It has been a marvellous example of leadership, which is built on his expertise, and we are all in his debt.
I have been watching the private finance initiative from my position on the Public Accounts Committee for many years. I always had a sneaky suspicion about it, without being able to put my finger on what that was, until I met an investment banker at a private event in 2003. He was a securitisation expert and had been involved in many PFI projects. He said: “I like the PFI. It’s a good source of income and is good for the business, but as a taxpayer it really pisses me off.” That rather woke me up. This was not a trade unionist complaining about costs being cut by worsening the terms and conditions of his members; it was a City fat cat getting fatter on the proceeds.
As a member of the Public Accounts Committee, I used to get invited to conferences on the PFI, when it was in its earlier heyday under new Labour. At those events, I met a group of people whom one can only really describe as theologians for the PFI. Rather like some Marxists, or even some Roman Catholics, there was no question to which they would not have an answer. It was a sort of self-containing system, at the root of which was the idea that the PFI was a competitive bidding process and that there was no possibility of its not being all sorted out and being in the best possible interests of clients—the public authorities involved. After all, it was a competitive, open-market process in which anyone could bid, and certain things would already be in the price. It was almost as if they were talking about the market for foreign exchange, or another perfect market. We know, of course, that because of the huge costs involved in bidding for a large project, the PFI has far more of the characteristics of an oligopoly. The Royal Institute of British Architects estimated, many years ago, that the cost of bidding for a PFI hospital was more than £11 million—probably significantly higher now. All those costs end up getting passed on to the client.
The other thing that these theologians would suggest was that it would not be possible for anything to go wrong, because it would not be possible to have an ill-informed or inexperienced client. There would be no question of there not being the right experience on the client side, or the right capacity or resources to manage a project after a contract had been signed. It was as if all must be for the best in the best of all possible worlds, because it could not be any other way. I continued, however, to be suspicious, and I continued to go to the conferences, becoming ruder and ruder until, I am pleased to say, they stopped inviting me. Customers paid £1,000 to attend and all I got out of it was a slap in the face with a wet haddock and a one-way ticket to Great Yarmouth, so I am glad that I am no longer invited.
I must congratulate the National Audit Office on something that recently opened my eyes. The NAO has produced more than 60 reports on the PFI in the past decade, and I have been pleading with it for years to do more synthesis. We have had analysis after analysis after analysis, and project after project, and in the office’s recent report, published in late April, there is more synthesis of some PFI issues. I had a light-bulb moment when I read on page 7 of the report, in a section about the skills, capacity and experience used in negotiating
“high margins on the changes in asset usage which are likely to occur over a long contract.”
I realised that the providers know full well that it is not possible to write a contract that is flexible enough to last for 25 to 30 years, and so they do two things. One is that they insure themselves by tying down every conceivable cost that might arise—every conceivable risk with its attached price. That process is enormously expensive, and it is reflected in the figure of £11 million that the Royal Institute of British Architects came up with. Although it is true, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire has said, that in rare instances people have lost a packet on projects, such as Jarvis, the National Physical Laboratory and the Joint Services Command and Staff College in Shrivenham—Laing had to sell its construction business after that—the contractors have a lot of people involved, and they do it well, insuring themselves on the downside pretty effectively, to ensure that they make money whatever happens.
The other light-bulb moment in my reading of the NAO report was when I came to:
“as major contractors seek to develop their income from the project”.
I thought to myself, “Hang on a minute. How do you develop your income from the contract? Okay, you might index the contract to protect yourself from inflation, but basically you have a contract and you provide services. It is predictable, and that is why you know what you’ll get going forward.” No. They know full well when they sign up that it is not possible for the public authority, particularly those in education and health, to write a contract that is flexible enough to last for 25 to 35 years. They ensure that all their risks are covered and then develop their income from the contract over time, as changes occur. One can also see a sudden shift. Just as the flagship Norfolk and Norwich hospital in my constituency was finished, the mood music suddenly changed towards much more primary, locally based care.
The contractors also do fancy financial engineering. The Norfolk and Norwich hospital was perhaps the locus classicus of that. The contractors added about £100 million in extra debt to the contract at the time of refinancing, thus accelerating their return from the project. The NAO produced a report specifically on that hospital, which stated that not only was the repayment period for the hospital extended from 34 years to 39 years—it is hard to see how that was in the interests of taxpayers—but the rate of return for the investors was accelerated from 18.9% to more than 60%, more than tripling it. If they can get all their money out that quickly, it means that it is not nearly as important, and there is not nearly the same incentive, to carry on managing the contract in the same way as before.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire made another important point when he said that we should not kid ourselves that it has all been plain sailing in the conventional procurement world. He has mentioned the British Library. One might also mention the Scottish Parliament and the Jubilee line extension. I was told that the cost overrun for the windows of Portcullis House—which, again, was a conventional procurement that the Public Accounts Committee looked at when it first opened years ago—was so huge that it would have been cheaper to have clad the exterior of Portcullis House with BMW 7 series cars. We should not be under any illusion that the conventional method has worked as well as it should.
The attempt to find a way to get projects delivered on budget, on time had a certain merit. My hon. Friend was absolutely right to point out that the hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) took this and ran with it. I talked to Lord Lamont, the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, at a dinner a couple of years ago. He said that he had asked the hon. Member for Coventry North West before the 1997 election, “How on earth are you going to finance all these grand promises in your manifesto?” He replied, “Oh, it’s simple—we’ll take your idea of the PFI and run with it.” Lord Lamont said, “But the rules won’t let you,” to which the hon. Member for Coventry North West replied, “Oh, we’ll ignore your stupid rules.” He was very candid about it, in fairness to him.
One of the things that I have regretted about the past few years of the PFI is that, in areas such as health and education, where it would have been fairly easy to do this, the Government did not insist on developing, at the same time, identical or nearly identical clusters and baskets of projects, so that we would then have had a proper way of comparing, over a period of years—three, five, seven and 12 years out—what had actually proved to be greater value for money.
Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
Is my hon. Friend also aware that the issue extends to the emergency services? Nottinghamshire police find themselves in a situation whereby their vehicle fleet is PFI-ed, and it costs hundreds of pounds just to repair a puncture.
Mr Bacon
Yes, and of course, we cannot blame the private sector for protecting its downside and ensuring that it makes money rather than loses it. One of the most extraordinary things about all this is the naivety of many of the people in the civil service who have negotiated these projects over the years. They do not seem to understand that the private sector players are profit maximisers. If they have a chance to make money, they will, and if they have a chance to make more money, they will. A certain lack of commercial nous and capacity on the part of the public sector has coloured all this.
Turning to the proposals of my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire on steps to improve data, one of the things that have shocked me throughout is the difficulty in getting a view from 100,000 feet of what is going on. I have spent years on the PAC trying to get answers out of the Treasury and other authorities about what is going on, and only very recently has anything started to emerge that looks like a coherent picture. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that we need to think about a variety of different approaches to financing infrastructure. We need to make the PFI compete for business, if we are to use it at all in the future.
There is a paradox in relation to future proposals. The NAO report refers to the fact that there is a pipeline of £200 billion-worth of transport and energy infrastructure projects, and it is precisely for those sorts of enormous, long-term projects that a PFI-type structure might have more attractions to it. However, we have to be able to break down the different components. There is often absolutely no need to ascribe to the entire 35-year period of a project the risks that, in truth, only apply for the first few years, yet that is what many PFI lawyers have been able to get away with in many cases.
My hon. Friend’s campaign for a rebate is fascinating and has certainly caught the attention of the PFI industry. He has led the way on this. It is a remarkable testament to the fact that people in the industry know that things have been going wrong that so many of them have been prepared to co-operate. Interestingly, at the PAC hearing on the NAO report the other day, one of the witnesses, Graham Beazley-Long, from Innisfree, was asked whether it would be reasonable for equity gains to be shared with the taxpayer. He was perfectly prepared to discuss the matter. He said that the Treasury and Infrastructure UK
“would have a view on whether that pushed up the costs of capital”.
In other words, it was all just a negotiation and a certain return would be demanded by investors, and if the taxpayer wanted to pay that up in advance, they could get it back again. There is probably an element of truth in that, but my sense over the years is that the PFI industry, out of which a large number of people have made a great deal of money, has not been made to compete hard enough. There are a number of ways in which they could do that. We should have some conventional clusters that give us, as taxpayers, the ability to compare over the long term, and we should be much more innovative, as my hon. Friend has suggested—I hope that we hear more about his proposal for a national asset trust fund—in securing alternative methods for infrastructure finance, so that the PFI industry knows that it is not the only game in town.
Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)
I rise to speak as another member of the Public Accounts Committee, which lays claim to having had a number of debates about the PFI, as has the Treasury Committee. I congratulate the hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) on securing this interesting and important debate about the PFI, which has been a key part of investment in this country for more than a decade, and how we make the way in which we invest in our infrastructure as a country work. I have a lot of sympathy with his concerns about whether the contracts have been done to the best of their availability and what we can do to improve them. There have been a number of debates and efforts to improve them, and I welcome the fact that he is saying that there is mixed picture on the PFI in terms of where it has delivered and that perhaps we can learn from where it has not delivered.
I want to set out some of my concerns about the hon. Gentleman’s proposals for the future. What really matters, given that a record 61 projects are currently being negotiated under the PFI, is how we can learn from what has happened. That has certainly been one of our key messages on the PAC, and I am sure that my fellow Committee members agree that we need to look at what we can learn and where we can make progress. One of the things that has surprised us on the PAC, as the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) has mentioned, is the way in which negotiations on the PFI have taken place and the revelation from one of the major PFI companies that it has not been talking to the Government about the possibility of a rebate, which is an issue that the hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire has raised, or about where contracts might be renegotiated.
Mr Metter from the industry used the colourful phrase that he would not ask his investors to take a haircut, by which he meant that he did not feel that it was possible to look at a voluntary scheme. I would be interested to hear more from the hon. Gentleman about his negotiations with other contractors and whether he thinks there is more interest in some kind of voluntary scheme.
We all recognise that it is difficult to ask the private sector to renegotiate a contract that it has signed up to in good faith. That therefore calls into question some of the ways in which we might deal with some of the problems with PFI, particularly the way in which the initial decision to move to PFI was made, which is something that I want to address. We must also consider what it would mean if those contracts were renegotiated. I hope that the hon. Gentleman agrees that there is a real concern that, if any contract is renegotiated, especially if capital parts of a project have been completed, it is services that will actually get renegotiated. Many of us are concerned that the renegotiation of services could mean fewer services, particularly in public institutions such as hospitals. Renegotiating services could have a negative impact on many of our constituents.
More fundamentally, on the hon. Gentleman’s concerns about PFI, I hope that I can convince him that, rather than pursue a voluntary rebate—as I have said, it has transpired from our discussions with the industry that that is not what the Treasury has been doing and that the industry is not aware of such conversations—we should look at the tax status of these companies. I am sorry that he was not able to sit through the second half of our hearing, where we heard some frankly shocking evidence from Treasury officials about their approach to the situation. The issue is of particular importance to the PFI, because when a decision to go to the PFI is made, one of the value-for-money constructs is an assessment of the amount of tax that will be returned to the Exchequer through working with a private company in the UK over the course of the contract. It is set out clearly in the Green Book that the Government make an assessment not of the specific company’s tax take, but of the general tax take that can be expected from working with the private sector in the UK in order to build a project.
Stella Creasy
One of the genuine delights about serving on the Public Accounts Committee with the hon. Gentleman is that he has such a wealth of knowledge and anecdotes that clearly illustrate the challenges that we are dealing with. He took part in the Committee’s session, so he will know that I have grave concerns that moving assets overseas to offshore tax havens has substantial consequences for our assessment of the value for money of PFIs. When the decision to go for a PFI project is taken, an assessment is made of the tax that we will get in return, but there is widespread evidence that many companies then move their assets overseas to offshore tax havens. In fact, the Treasury Committee took evidence showing that 91 PFI projects were owned by secondary market infrastructure funds, so we are losing money. One of the best examples of that problem is a body set up by HSBC. The HSBC Infrastructure Company Ltd, which manages a number of hospitals in this country, has made £38 million in profit from 33 PFI schemes, but it has paid just £100,000 in tax in the UK in the past six months.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
Just to clarify, is the hon. Lady suggesting that, as part of the negotiation of a PFI contract for, say, an NHS hospital, a calculation is done on the basis of what corporation tax would be paid? Were NHS trusts doing that? I am a bit surprised to hear that.
Stella Creasy
No, let me be clear. The Treasury uses the Green Book to assess whether a PFI is an appropriate model. An assessment is made specifically of the Exchequer’s tax take over the life of the contract. It is precisely because that is part of the value-for-money assessment that I have great concerns about the fact that we are not getting the tax we expected, which would make the PFI a reasonable model to use.
It is therefore fair to ask what we can do. If the Government are proceeding with the PFI—that is an interesting issue for Government Back Benchers who are concerned about this issue—what action are they taking to learn from the way in which previous contracts were negotiated? One thing that is clear to those of us on the PAC is that there is a better understanding of the skills needed to negotiate these contracts. The hon. Member for South Norfolk was clear about the skills needed in the public sector to negotiate with the private sector and to improve the way in which contracts are negotiated. We must also appreciate that we in the public sector have tried to renegotiate contracts after the fact by asking for increased provision in our hospitals, for example, or by looking at different services. That, of course, has consequences for the response from the private sector.
The fundamental question as regards continuing with the PFI—the Government certainly seem content to do so—is what action Ministers are taking on tax and tax havens. The hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire is right that we need better data on tax assessments, and those of us on the PAC were certainly unable to get information about assessments of the tax that various PFI projects were expected to generate when they were commissioned and about what would happen next. What concerned us was that, although Treasury officials accepted that an initial assessment would be made, they were clear that no assessment would be made further down the line of whether that initial assessment had been reasonable.
Indeed, there has been no learning about the way in which tax is assessed in decisions to go for the PFI, even though that could be used in future contracts. Specifically, officials were clear that there is no commitment from the Government to look at the tax status of funds or even to explore what action might be taken, for example, to require a company bidding for a PFI contract to show in its books that it has been operating in the UK for the past five years, so that we can be confident that the bulk of its work is done in this country and therefore that we would get the tax back. We would then have a reasonable expectation that the Treasury would recoup the general sum that was part of the calculation. This is not a new concern or a new idea; in fact, a previous Labour Member tabled a private Member’s Bill on precisely this point, but it did not receive support from the then Opposition, and I hope that that will change if we can all agree that we want to improve the way in which the PFI operates, if it continues to be taken forward.
The hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire has said that the PFI might be a better model for some types of infrastructure projects than others, but the list of the 61 projects that the Treasury is developing includes a wide range of projects, including hospitals, schools, fire buildings, roads and police stations, so this is a live issue. We could be making progress on challenging the costs to the Exchequer and the value for money of projects, but there is no commitment from the Treasury to look at these issues.
Those are the main concerns that I wanted to put on the record about the hon. Gentleman’s campaign. First, were we to push for a rebate, it would be difficult to get the private sector to renegotiate, although I wish him well in looking for haircuts from people such as David Metter. Secondly, there might be very real consequences for the renegotiation of the cost of the services that are delivered, although I am sure that they would be unintended consequences as far as the hon. Gentleman is concerned.
Thirdly, it is a real concern that we may leave untouched the tax status of these companies and the money that the Exchequer might lose, but which was part of the original decision to go for a PFI project. In putting as much pressure as possible on the Government to talk to companies—the briefing says Ministers have, but the reality revealed in the PAC is that they have not—I hope the hon. Gentleman will also put pressure on them to look at companies’ tax status. I hope he will put pressure on them to look at how we can close the present loophole, so that we can be sure that where an assessment is made of the money that will be returned to the Exchequer over 30 years or whatever term is chosen for the 61 projects, the Exchequer will actually recoup that money. We all agree that value for money should be at the top of the agenda, and we should be thinking about the best way to get the infrastructure buildings that our country will need in the future. If so, how do we make sure, not only when the contract is committed to but in the years ahead, that we are securing that value for money?
I congratulate the hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire on securing the debate, and I urge him to think about his target. I look forward to hearing what he has to say later.
Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair)
Order. Before I call the next speaker, I remind hon. Members that a lot of people want to participate in the debate. I hope everybody will be called, and I am allowing for interventions, but I ask hon. Members to bear that in mind.
Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
The PFI is one of those incredibly important, but unutterably dull subjects, that make an awful lot of people’s eyes glaze over. It is rather astonishing that the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) is the only person, other than the shadow Minister, who is representing the Labour party here. I do not know whether that is because Labour Members are embarrassed about their hand in the mass of PFI projects that have cost the taxpayer so dearly, but it is interesting that only the hon. Lady and the shadow Minister are here from the Opposition, while so many Government Members are present.
I am a bit of a stuck record on this issue, but we have a complete lack of competition in the PFI world. Like others, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) on being so diligent and tenacious in putting forward the taxpayer’s interests in the PFI debate. He and I have met a number of PFI providers together, and it was apparent that there was complete denial of the fact that there was anything resembling a lack of competition or that there might have been oligopolistic profits.
In his campaign, my hon. Friend has been careful to suggest a voluntary rebate—there is no compulsion. The hon. Member for Walthamstow would need to think carefully about trying retrospectively to change taxation rules or doing anything that smacked of changing the game for existing PFI deals, notwithstanding the need to ensure that we get better value for the taxpayer in deals going forward.
In my home county of Northamptonshire, we have what is believed to be the biggest schools PFI project in Europe, which incorporates 74 schools. At the time that the project was entered into, it really was the only game in town. However, it is incredibly important, albeit rather dull, to understand why PFI has been such a contentious subject and why it has resulted in unintended consequences, such as charges of £1,000 to change a power point.
The important thing to understand, which many taxpayers do not really understand, is why PFI contracts are so inflexible and expensive, and I want to take a moment to explain that very simply. PFI may involve a local education authority deciding to build a new school. The LEA will invite one of what turns out to be a fairly small group of builders to bid for the project. The building firm will go to a group of banks, which will look at what they can fund over perhaps 25 years. The banks will come back to the builder with a specific contract for delivery of the school and offer funding for the project, with the expectation that the LEA will start repaying the debt incurred in building the school only once the school is delivered and inhabited by children. Effectively, a special purpose company has been set up to build the school. The bank funds it, the building company organises it and the LEA takes it over on day one and starts repaying the debt. Inevitably, without a specific debt on the general obligations of the local education authority or on the UK, the beauty of the project was that it did not consolidate into our national debt picture. Of course, bearing in mind the dreadful mess of our economic situation left by the previous Government, there is no chance that we could now begin to consider only normal, conventional procurement. The potential for making loans against such projects, secured on the project itself, must remain—so we must get much cleverer about it.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
Can the hon. Lady perhaps help with something that I have never understood about Labour’s obsession with the PFI? In general the Government can get lower rates for borrowing than private companies can, or than are available elsewhere, so what is the advantage in not just proceeding by Government borrowing at the cheaper rate?
Andrea Leadsom
I was coming to exactly that point. The point is that funding the project through a special purpose vehicle means that it is not consolidated into the national debt picture. In other words, it is an off-balance sheet form of financing. Therefore, for a Government who want to spend a lot of money on capital projects without blowing up their national debt picture, it is the perfect opportunity.
Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)
Further to the point made by the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), is it not a central claim made by the industry that part of the advantage is the management of construction risk? One of the issues, however, which my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire referred to, is the bundling of contracts. The construction risk and the design are bundled with the management service charge, and that drives some of the complexity, which drives some of the cost.
Andrea Leadsom
I think that my hon. Friends are reading my speech, because that was to be my next point. They have obviously been given advance notice. That is exactly the point: the builder, in theory, takes the risk on a project such as building a school, and the LEA only ever starts to repay the debt when the school is built and everything is in place. Theoretically, the builder takes the project risk. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) says, in reality there is bundling, and because there are sometimes unique risks to a project, often those revert to the LEA. The perceived advantages from the fact that the builder takes the project risk are therefore not always as clear cut as they might appear. In the end the major advantage has been that of not consolidating the debt on the national balance sheet.
George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con)
On that point, is my hon. Friend aware that, as well as being poor value for money for the taxpayer, PFI contracts have caused problems with the restructuring of certain elements of the public sector? For instance, several schools that have become academies have had all sorts of problems with their PFI contracts, causing tensions between them and the local authority. Sometimes those problems have been a block to a school’s moving to academy status.
Andrea Leadsom
Again, my hon. Friend takes me to my next point: the other side of the equation is the very apparent disadvantages of PFI, the primary and key one being the lack of flexibility. The reason for it is that often a special purpose vehicle sets up the project, and therefore the project is inexorably linked to its financing. For example, you may build a school and decide you want an extra classroom or two. A PFI school in the constituency of a member of the Treasury Committee built its hockey pitch 2 feet too short for internationals, so it tried to extend it by 2 feet, but therein lay a can of worms. It was impossible to do it other than at exorbitant cost, because the contract and its financing are inextricably tied together within the special purpose company. What happens, and the reason hon. Members have spoken of money being made out of the contract as it proceeds, is precisely that if you want to change the spec—which of course you do—
Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair)
Order. The hon. Lady has on occasion referred to my wanting to do many things. I do not want to do any of them, but I am listening with interest.
Andrea Leadsom
I am sure that, privately, you might be interested Mrs Main, but thank you for keeping me in order.
What you—[Hon. Members: “One!”]—or rather not you, Mrs Main, but an LEA wanting to build a school, would need would be to have the entire specification for the school for the subsequent 25 years up front. That is clearly impossible, and the banks make their money by charging enormous arrangement fees and ongoing charges as schools change their requirements. That is how the money continues to come in from those projects.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
The point that I believe is at issue is procurement failure. To take the example of the hockey pitch, if it is built 2 feet too short, that is a procurement failure. It is not necessarily a specification issue—there are such words as “fit for purpose”. The real issue with all the stuff we are talking about is that the public sector is incapable of procuring projects of such complexity. That is what happens, and that is why so much money is made in change requests. It is not principally to do with financing.
Andrea Leadsom
My hon. Friend makes a good point, and many of the problems arising from PFI have happened because the private sector saw the public sector coming. There have been all sorts of issues with poor public procurement, and where two PCTs in neighbouring counties have both commissioned a hospital, one has not learned the lessons of the other. Everyone comes at the thing afresh, and they all have the same problems and run into the same weaknesses. Nevertheless, there is an inherent lack of flexibility built into the projects, which cannot be overcome. It is therefore incredibly important to consider that the PFI on its own, even if it were the cheapest option, and even though it does not at the moment have an impact on our national debt picture, has an inherent weakness in its structure.
The other massive weakness in the structure, which has been exacerbated since the financial crisis, is the cost. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire said, the reality now, with Government gilts at about 3% to 4% long term, is that direct Government procurement would be much cheaper than a bank trying to fund a project itself over five to 25 years and make a profit, where the net cost to the taxpayer ends up at 8% or 9%. There is an enormous difference between the costs of direct procurement and PFI procurement. That is exacerbated by the financial crisis, and makes things almost unaffordable. We must begin to look at alternatives.
I want to float an idea that I have been trying to put to Ministers—and will be doing in the near future. That is the possibility that the green investment bank could provide some necessary competition to the PFI market. As I said earlier, there is a serious lack of competition. The Treasury Committee heard from PFI providers that often they bid only for perhaps one in three deals. Since there are only six or seven major PFI providers, that means there are probably only two, or at most three, serious bidders for any deal; that suggests an enormous lack of competition.
However, we are now thinking about the green investment bank—a brand new idea for this country, whose time has come. That bank will be looking to fund many of the low-carbon, high-tech and potentially economic infrastructure projects of the future, such as offshore wind farms—I shall not talk about railways, but others might; hon. Members will appreciate my personal sensitivity there. Offshore wind farms, roads and all the rest require long-term financing. That is a big challenge, and the green investment bank could address it.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
I totally agree with the hon. Lady about the green investment bank. Does she think that that could prove to be a model for types of investment other than green infrastructure—things more along the lines of some of the PFI issues that are causing a problem at the moment?
Andrea Leadsom
Yes, I think that that is right. The green investment bank will have the specific remit of promoting green investments, and that is right and proper; but alternatives could be talked about.
What I propose is specific: it is that the green investment bank should be a bank in its own right. It should be listed on the London stock exchange and the Government should have perhaps a 10% shareholding in it. The UK high street banks should have the offer to purchase up to a 15% shareholding each, and the final 15% to 20% shareholding should be offered at a highly discounted rate to the British taxpayer. We would therefore have a bank with an undoubted triple A credit rating that would be able to fund itself extraordinarily cheaply—somewhere between Government gilts and triple A bank finance—and access the international capital markets, including very long-term funding.
That would kill many birds with one stone because there would be instant competition in the PFI market, which is something we desperately need, and an instant and huge threatening competition to the UK banking sector, about which we on the Treasury Committee are extremely worried. With its green remit, there would also potentially be a big competitor in the small and medium-sized enterprise market, about which I think all colleagues are concerned. I strongly ask my hon. Friend the Minister to consider the prospect that the green investment bank could provide a realistic alternative to PFI.
Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair)
Order. As I have said, a lot of people want to catch my eye. If right hon. and hon. Members can confine their speeches to 10 minutes or under, they will all have a chance to speak.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
I congratulate not only the hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman), but everyone who has spoken today. We are having an absolutely first-class debate with some very innovative thinking.
When the PFI was first introduced, I was deeply concerned about it in the west midlands, which is where I am from. I felt that clever companies were running rings around the inexperienced procurers of a lot of our public services. I was worried about it then and I am still worried about it, because everything I have feared has come to fruition. Today, £67 billion-worth of PFI contracts have been signed, and the total payment has been £210 billion, which says it all. In the NHS, the BBC found that £11.3 billion of investment in hospitals will have a total lifetime cost of £65 billion. The average NHS PFI profit is a return of 66%. If we compare that with the 2.8% figure for major construction companies, there is a shocking contrast.
A number of speakers have talked about PFI being the only game in town, the lack of access to capital finance and the need for off-balance-sheet funding. The problems have been very apparent. There are long, inflexible arrangements that are often unresponsive to change. Again, I shall give a health-related example. Hospitals currently do not have the money to keep pumping into these inflexible contracts. Hospitals change their functions and have a need for physical alterations, but PFI contracts are not responsive enough to help. Of course, there are also policy changes. We now have a situation whereby we are trying to conduct as much care as possible within the community. It is very interesting to speculate about what that will mean for the PFI. At the moment, we are facing the spectre of closing beds and sacking staff to balance the books and satisfy the contracts that were drawn up with inexperience a long, long time ago.
The distribution of risk concerns me greatly. Who really takes the risk if something goes badly wrong? Given the statistics that I have quoted, it must be difficult to fail with such profits built in. There is also the issue of the trading of contracts. Once a company has acquired a contract, it goes out into the market and, as the hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire has said, there is sub-contracting and different people take their profit and a cut. The European services strategy unit found that the Treasury’s poor monitoring of the trading of PFI debt was giving companies a licence to print money. It is a very concerning and problematic picture.
What are the Government doing about the issue? Since we have been in government, we have forced Departments to bear the revenue cost of PFI contracts—I bet that has made one or two people think again about further investment. We are also reopening three major contracts as part of a renegotiation strategy and—I hope that this will be a warning to many PFI holders—as mentioned, we are doing a deep-dive investigation into Queen’s hospital, Romford. That will be the first forensic look at the operation of a PFI in 15 years.
We have talked about solutions. The hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire has campaigned brilliantly on the idea of trying to obtain a rebate, and a voluntary code was agreed in 2002 under the previous Government. After several PFI providers made windfalls in refinancing deals, it was negotiated that 30% of gains from existing projects should be returned to the taxpayer. I understand that today that figure is 50%. We need a proper rebate and a proper code of conduct. I am also attracted to the idea of a national asset trust fund and the possible extension of a Government bank, such as the green investment bank, to use the Government’s natural low-borrowing ability to obtain cheaper funding.
I have been very brief, Mrs Main. This gravy train has got to dry up. There is an issue with many, although not all, PFI companies. That point has been made. Some contracts have been well conducted, professionally done and are good value for money. However, a lot of PFI companies have taken advantage and have bled our public services dry. It is time to release the tourniquet before the patient who feeds it bleeds to death.
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
Thank you, Mrs Main, for allowing me to speak in an extremely important debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) and others on the Backbench Business Committee on securing this vital debate. It is a crucial issue that is of great interest to my constituents, and I shall focus on that constituency interest.
Hon. Members have given a very technical analysis of PFI, its failings and what we should possibly do about such arrangements. However, in very practical and tangible terms, I want to speak for my constituents and explain why this rebate for the PFI would be extremely beneficial to them. If I may put that into context, I will be talking about the huge PFI scheme at the University Hospitals Coventry and Warwickshire NHS Trust.
Let me give hon. Members the background. A large tertiary hospital on the edge of Coventry was built under the previous Government’s PFI regime. The hospital replaced the then Walsgrave hospital, where I was born in the early 1970s. The new incarnation of the Walsgrave, as we know it locally, is undoubtedly a great hospital. When I say that, I do not just mean great as in good, although it is an extremely good hospital, but great in terms of size, because it has 1,250 beds and 27 operating theatres. The hospital is a large fish in a small pond in terms of the Coventry and Warwickshire health economy.
Since the hospital started to operate in 2001, the cost of the PFI contract has been substantial, with more than 14% of the University Hospitals Coventry and Warwickshire NHS Trust budget now consumed by the PFI contract and the obligations under it. The main problem with the PFI contract is that the costs are pretty much fixed. Regardless of patient numbers, under the contract the trust must still pay over a long period for the buildings, repairs, cleaning and provision of support services. Should demand fall or patients decide to go to another hospital in the Coventry and Warwickshire health economy, inevitably those fixed costs remain and must be borne by the hospital.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
My neighbour and colleague is making a strong case about the impact of the UHCW in the health economy of Warwickshire, but my interest is my local hospital of St Cross in Rugby, which is part of the same trust. One of our big concerns is that, with such a large proportion of the health economy going into the PFI hospital, in times of budget pressure such as now, the bias will always be towards the PFI contract, which must be fulfilled and maintained, but that might be to the detriment of other hospitals locally and, in particular, those in the same trust.
Mr Jones
My hon. Friend, whose constituency neighbours mine, has hit the nail on the head.
In our situation, regardless of demand or whether the Coventry and Warwickshire PFI hospital wants to close a ward or to stop the activity associated with closing a ward, such as the cleaning or maintenance, the fixed costs must still be met. That is most detrimental, and it is a drain on the Warwickshire health economy.
Another concern relates to the primary care trust and the strategic health authority. That context is changing, but some of the people involved in those organisations were instrumental in the creation of the PFI hospital and, whatever happens, I suspect that they would not want to see the hospital—this landmark development in Coventry—fail. The concern is because, ever since the hospital was built—before the mortar between the bricks or the paint was dry—the local PCT, NHS Warwickshire, has been trying to reconfigure services. We immediately had an acute services review, which threatened services at my local district general hospital, the George Eliot, and to a greater extent at Rugby’s St Cross, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby has said. NHS Warwickshire paired St Cross up with the Coventry and Warwickshire trust which, really, subsumed it. Services were drained away from Rugby to the new PFI hospital in Coventry, regardless of whether people in Rugby wanted the choice of going to St Cross. If we do not get a grip on the situation soon, I fear that the same might happen in my constituency at the George Eliot.
That brings me to the crux of the argument made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire. I echo his concern about such huge beasts of projects, which are so expensive and we hear stories about, such as the £300 for changing a light bulb. They are real, tangible problems, and our constituents cannot understand why the previous Government signed the taxpayer up to such ridiculous commitments. Although the previous Government took on those contracts, I appreciate that the new Government cannot simply tear them up. Some difficulties might arise from how the contract was framed, in particular on the capital commitments. The companies that originally constructed and financed the hospitals have sold the debt on, and it might have been sold on again, so we would now find it difficult to pin down those people and to get some form of rebate.
Stella Creasy
I am interested in what the hon. Gentleman is saying. We have all talked about the difficulty of renegotiating the existing contracts, but 61 PFI projects are currently in train for which contracts have not yet been signed. Is the logic of what he and perhaps other Government Back-Bench MPs are saying that they want the Government to stop the negotiations and to look at another format? I do not understand. If there are so many concerns about PFI as a model—it never seems to work and is always too expensive—is the sum total that it should not happen at all?
Mr Jones
I am not necessarily saying that PFI should not happen at all, but that contracts should be negotiated in the correct fashion to minimise the taxpayer’s exposure to situations such as those we have seen. Contracts must be right when ensuring that organisations are a suitable size, for example, to fit into the local health economy. With hindsight, we might question whether the PFI hospital at Coventry was too large for the wider Coventry and Warwickshire health economy.
The general point is that we must get the issue right in future. I accept the hon. Lady’s comments, but I am confident that Ministers are ensuring that any contract negotiations will be made properly, so that we do not over-commit the Government, as was done previously.
Jesse Norman
Does my hon. Friend share my view that there is a world of difference between Building Schools for the Future, a form of PFI that the Government could and did cancel, or specific projects which were inherited but which they were uncomfortable with, such as Hartlepool hospital, which they have also stopped, at least for the time being, and the vast preponderance of the 61 projects inherited from the previous Government? The toxic inheritance from the previous Government was an enormous sausage machine, with huge embedded costs, which we have had to deal with despite a difficult economic situation. There is something grossly wrong in comparing £200 billion of spending under the previous Government with the need to get the situation under control. Does he share my view?
Mr Jones
I share my hon. Friend’s view, which he has expressed powerfully. We must also consider a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) that, thanks to the Labour party, the country is now so indebted that, to put in any new infrastructure, we have to look seriously at schemes such as the PFI, because without them the country simply does not have the money to finance any projects.
Mr Jones
I will not give way, because I am mindful that other Members wish to speak.
In conclusion, my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire has done an excellent job in bringing the PFI to the fore. I sincerely hope that the Government and the Minister will look at the issue closely and carefully to see whether we can get some form of rebate from the providers of PFI projects—in particular, over the terms of the service contracts—not only because of the financial situation but to ensure that the quality of services such as cleaning and maintenance are preserved, but at a lower cost.
I hope that the Minister shows the same vigour and enthusiasm as my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire. If she takes the matter forward, which I am confident that she will, hopefully we will see a great day for the British taxpayer and for people in constituencies such as mine, who are suffering the cost of the frivolity of the previous Government, which is now affecting the Warwickshire health economy.
Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) on securing this debate. Herford and Worcester have a long history of fruitful co-operation, and I hope that the debate will show that we can work together to deliver better value for our constituents and our country.
As we have heard, PFI has become a dirty word—almost a term of abuse—but it was not always so. Both Conservative and Labour Governments saw the benefits of working with private finance and, from the 1990s onwards, the opportunity to deliver better public service by using it. Rightly, many hon. Members have challenged the essence of the scheme, and I accept that it should be reviewed and that we should look at competition, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) has suggested. However, Members should remember that some PFIs allowed valuable new public buildings to be delivered, which would not otherwise have been possible. That was often used to justify the scheme, even after some of the initial value-for-money problems became clear. That was certainly the case with the Worcestershire Royal hospital in my constituency, and I want to focus on matters close to home, in the same way that my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) did. Most of my comments today will be about that particular PFI.
Over time, it has become clear that value for money was not sufficiently protected, particularly in early PFIs, such as our hospital in Worcester. When the Labour Government came to power in 1997, they were determined to embark on a massive programme of public building, but with a commitment to remain within the spending plans of the previous Conservative Chancellor. The PFI provided a valuable get-out from that Catch-22 situation, because it allowed the Labour Government to borrow against the future—build today and pay tomorrow. That was not in itself a problem, as long as future costs were taken into account and rigorously controlled. Sadly, the political imperative overrode financial good sense, and projects were signed off without the rigorous checks that should have been made.
In the case of Worcestershire Royal hospital, I can state categorically that the decision to approve the structure of the PFI was political, that it was taken by a Labour Government and that it would not have been approved by a Conservative Government. The reason why I know that is peculiar. I happened to be working as a volunteer driver for my right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), who was then Secretary of State for Health, during the 1997 general election campaign. We were both from Worcestershire originally, and we were both well aware of the clamour in the city for a new hospital, so the topic came up naturally during our travels around the country. I asked my right hon. Friend why he would not sign off the hospital that everyone wanted. He explained that, although it was absolutely right that the city should have a new hospital, the contract that had been put forward for it was too expensive and inflexible, and did not build in the extra capacity that the hospital would need over the next 30 years. He said that when the Conservatives were re-elected he would renegotiate that contract and ensure that we had a hospital to be proud of. Alas, that was not to be.
With the advent of a new Government impatient to get spending, the contract was signed off unchanged and the Worcestershire Royal hospital, a fine building in many ways, where a lot of fantastic work is done, lived up to the concerns of my right hon. Friend. The reply to my recent parliamentary question to the Department of Health in February on the costs of the PFI confirmed that over the life of its 30-year contract the Worcestershire Royal hospital will cost approximately 10 times the capital cost of the project—£852 million over 30 years, compared with its £82 million capital cost.
Hon. Members may point out that it is not reasonable to compare directly the capital figure of a project with the total cost of the PFI contract, because account must be taken of the cost of capital, the service elements, and the fact that a PFI project is maintained as new throughout its lifetime. However, it is reasonable to benchmark such figures against other, and especially more recent, hospital PFIs. In recent hospital PFIs, the lifetime costs have been more like four times the capital cost, which shows the vast gulf in value between early hospital deals, such as that at Worcestershire Royal hospital, and more recent PFIs.
Hon. Members do not have to accept my word for the poor value of that PFI. In 2006, Patricia Hewitt, who was then the right hon. Member for Leicester, West and Secretary of State for Health in the Labour Government, told the Select Committee on Health that the financing of the Worcestershire Royal had been “a disaster”, and that it had been much more expensive than other PFIs.
We have a problem not with cost alone but with capacity, and they are similar to those raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton. The hospital in Worcester has to serve as both the acute hospital for the county and the community hospital for Worcester. It is now, and has been for some time operating at close to full capacity, and as more services have been centred there, it has become a headache for the management of our acute trust. With the opportunity to have more cancer services centred on the Royal, which my constituents warmly welcome and support, comes the challenge of deciding which services must go elsewhere in the county as a result of the capacity limits.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire has pointed out so eloquently in this debate and others, one of the knock-on effects of poorly negotiated PFIs has been to raise the price of hospital parking, which is certainly true in Worcester. In fact, in the early life of the PFI, land that had originally been set aside for parking had to be sold to help the trust to meet the costs of paying for it. That has added to the difficulties of parking. The costs are of understandable concern to patients and visitors, and there is a knock-on effect of people parking in nearby residential estates to avoid those costs.
Jesse Norman
My hon. Friend’s powerful speech suggests that his hospital, the total cost of which is 10 times its capital cost versus an average of four times, leaves six times £80 million, or just under £500 million of excess cost, in that contract. Is that an appropriate calculation?
Mr Walker
That is an appropriate point to raise, and a strong argument for the sort of rebate that my hon. Friend has been advocating.
It is regrettable for all those who are affected by high charges for parking or by cars cluttering their streets as a result that the previous Government did not take more time to negotiate, to think more about the long-term consequences of their hurried decisions and to get a better deal for taxpayers before signing off that PFI.
However, we are here not simply to point the finger of blame but to deliver solutions. I believe that there are solutions to these problems, which is why I have passionately supported my hon. Friend’s campaign for a significant PFI rebate. We need not let past mistakes for ever damn the idea of the PFI, but we should learn from them and ensure that we deliver better value for money, better planning and a stronger position for taxpayers in future.
I support my hon. Friend’s contention that a 0.5% rebate nationally would deliver enormous benefits for taxpayers and, in the case of the Worcestershire Royal hospital, it would deliver millions of pounds that are desperately needed in our local health economy. I also support the urgent measures that our Government are already taking to bring PFI companies to the table and to ensure that better value is delivered for taxpayers. I am delighted for that reason that the Worcestershire Royal hospital is one of those being reviewed by McKinsey, and I urge it to examine closely the details of the current agreements and to search for areas where value can be unlocked. In Worcestershire, as elsewhere, many of us believe that the long-term costs of the PFI are placing serious strain on the finances of our acute trust. Consequentially, they are a significant barrier to the vital short-term goal of achieving foundation trust status, not to mention the essential long-term aim of delivering the best possible care for everyone in Worcestershire, free at the point of need.
There is good news on that front, which shows that the light that my hon. Friend has shone on the PFI, and the determination of this coalition Government to deliver value for money, are already bearing fruit. I understand that the Worcestershire Acute NHS Trust is already finding significant savings that can be delivered from the soft services parts of their contract. As part of the trust’s strategy to deliver greater efficiency from its PFI provider, commercial discussions are currently under way with ISS to benchmark the provision of soft services every five years. ISS provides services such as cleaning, catering, portering, security and laundry to the Worcestershire Royal hospital site, and it has indicated that it is prepared to work with the trust to deliver savings over the next five years in line with national efficiency assumptions of 4% a year. That would be delivered while offering a guarantee that there will be no impact on quality. I understand that the trust’s board is due to consider a formal offer within the next month, and I welcome that.
The trust is also due to commence negotiations with Siemens on the managed medical equipment deal, which is due to have a benchmarking review in 2012, in line with its 10-year anniversary. Those negotiations are entirely welcome and show that some private companies are already engaged in seeing how better value for money can be achieved for taxpayers. However, I am worried that, as yet, there has been no indication of similar negotiations with the main PFI contractor, Catalyst, a special-purpose vehicle. I take this opportunity to urge it to come to the table and, recognising the exceptionally good deal that it has had at the Worcestershire Royal hospital, to begin talking about how some of the value from that deal could be rebated to taxpayers and the local NHS.
The main shareholders in Catalyst when it was set up were Bovis Lend Lease and the British Linen bank. The latter, via HBOS and the ill-conceived merger that the previous Government forced through, has become part of the Lloyds banking group, in which UK taxpayers now have a significant stake. Surely such banks, publicly bailed out as they have been, should be doing everything in their power to ensure that they are giving good value to the public and the NHS? That should be the case whether or not they hope to win more business from the Government, but I have recently discovered that that same consortium has hopes of winning the contract to deliver a new radiotherapy unit for the Worcestershire Royal hospital.
That radiotherapy unit will be a vital addition to the suite of services that Worcester is able to offer to cancer patients, and I have been campaigning for that for many years. I welcomed the decision of our trust first to approve it and then to locate it in Worcester at the heart of our county. I have been asked whether I am worried that Catalyst is in the running to deliver it. I do not see it as a matter for concern so much as a golden opportunity. I hope that Catalyst can show in its bid for the radiotherapy unit that it is determined to offer taxpayers value for money and to share the benefits of the original PFI contract for the Worcestershire Royal hospital. It must have many advantages in terms of cost and synergies with its existing contracts, so I am sure that it will be as determined as I am that those advantages are shared fairly with taxpayers. I will be only too happy to support my acute trust in its negotiations with Catalyst to make sure the bid offers the excellent value for money that it should.
In particular, I am hopeful that the benefits of this project will be not only financial but will provide the opportunity to address the long-term parking problems at the hospital. I urge it to consider the need for a multi-storey car park at the Worcestershire Royal, and the golden opportunity to deliver that alongside the provision of a new radiotherapy unit. Indeed, more broadly, the Government should recognise that, as we strive to deliver value for money in all our public services, we must take a more aggressive approach in our purchasing and commissioning, negotiating hard to ensure that taxpayers receive good value. I was happy to hear of the hundreds of millions already saved by the Cabinet Office through negotiation with major suppliers, and I hope that the Minister can assure us that that approach will in future be taken to the PFI.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire again on his campaign and exhort the Minister to take on board the many excellent points that have been made in this debate. Not only do we have a responsibility not to repeat the mistakes of the past but we have an opportunity to put things right for the future.
Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con)
I will endeavour to make my contribution brief. This has been a very valuable and worthwhile debate on a number of issues. We need to consider the PFI as quite a complex challenge. Although my hon. Friend the Minister is here to help us with some of the financial issues, it is a challenge not just for her but for her Cabinet colleagues, because it is not just the finances that need to be reviewed. There are issues of complexity that we need to deal with in trying to find a way forward. Those issues are not just about the way in which the contracts are currently structured. There is also an issue about cultural change, because much of what has happened has changed the way in which decisions are made and outcomes are delivered for patients in hospitals and children in schools. That is why, although I support the argument for a rebate, it is only part of the solution. It deals with the existing, financial challenge, but it does not deal with other issues. It is right that we should be looking for a different way to do things, but it is a very complicated challenge.
The PFI was always well intentioned as a concept. It was to deliver quality and it was to deliver projects on time and on budget. In many ways, it achieved that. We have 700 schools, hospitals, prisons and other infrastructure projects that would not exist or would not be in the pipeline but for this initiative. We have £67 billion-worth of expenditure signed off.
The problems fall into at least four categories. First, the risk was overestimated, in part because of the public sector’s inability to deal with a very complex negotiation, as has been said. The consequence was that the taxpayer was lumbered with a very large part of the bill. As has been said, the amount of £210 billion is outstanding. By contrast, the investor is doing extraordinarily well. A number of figures have been cited, and I will add to that list. An EU think-tank tells me that 154 schemes are delivering a 50% return. That is huge. Clearly, therefore, one matter that we must consider is how we simplify not only future contracts, but the existing ones. I believe that we must consider renegotiating not just a chunk of money, but some of the terms.
Mark Pawsey
Does my hon. Friend agree that a justification for a rebate arises from the effect of the spending review on those Departments whose budgets have been reduced? If the PFI element remains fixed within the budget, by definition the non-PFI element has to reduce by a greater proportion, so budgets that may have been reduced by 2% could end up being reduced by 4%. It is entirely appropriate that those who are making the sums of money that we have heard about should bear their share of the burden of getting our country’s finances into order.
Anne Marie Morris
I agree. My argument is that that is part of the problem, rather than the totality of the problem. My second request is that we find a way of delivering transparency and better management of the contracts. One hospital was charged £333 to change a light bulb. I dare say that that changes the hospital’s decision about whether it will change many light bulbs. One school was charged £300 just to install an electrical socket. How many times will the school install a socket on that basis? One Army official was charged £103 for a 1-inch Land Rover screw that actually cost just over £2. That is not the right way of doing things.
David Mowat
The three examples that my hon. Friend has cited are powerful, but they represent procurement failures by the public sector procurement people involved and structural failures in the nature of the contract, because the contract did not have to specify, for example, exactly how light bulbs would be maintained. We have examples of multiple procurement failures. PFI is being used as a proxy for that. Those procurement failures can happen with any technique or contract.
Anne Marie Morris
My hon. Friend makes a valid point, which is why the issue is far more complicated than a rebate.
The risk is overestimated. Projects are not monitored, partly because there is no transparency. As has been said, the size of the debt has been hidden because it is off balance sheet. If we looked at the real national debt figure, then rather than £910 billion, we would probably be looking at £1.12 trillion.
I can perhaps best illustrate the distortion in the way in which public services are used by explaining what is happening in my constituency. There is a wonderful new build hospital in Newton Abbot. It was the winner of the 2007 HealthInvestor PFI deal of the year award. But what has happened? In that hospital, we are finding considerable underuse of facilities. Beds and consulting rooms are not being used as they might be. Why? The reason, as I understand it from individuals who have come to me to raise this concern, is that it is just too expensive to use those facilities rather than the cheaper facilities in neighbouring hospitals. I am pleased to say that the primary care trust has taken the matter up and is considering how better use of the facilities at Newton Abbot hospital can be made. However, it is an example of how behaviour can be changed.
The challenge, therefore, is not only to get the cost down. Reference has been made to what the Government are already doing. I am pleased that we have a PFI hit squad, which has already taken £4 billion out of the project list. I am minded to look very favourably on the concept of a rebate, but as I said, a rebate will not be enough. There are two aspects to trying to sort out the financial mess. One is the issue of maintenance. Clearly, there are ways of reducing maintenance costs under the contracts, and whatever saving comes out of any renegotiation needs to be shared with the taxpayer and the local community. The second aspect is the payback rates. We have heard many examples of the payback rates in this context being well above the payback rates for similar risks in the market. Those two issues need to be considered.
To return to where I started, one issue that we need to consider is the impact on what happens in other parts of Government. We need to consider our health care reforms, because many of the PFI contracts are currently held by the primary care trusts. Those PCTs will cease to exist in the not-too-distant future. As and when we see their demise, what will happen to those contracts? Is that an opportunity or a threat? That is a serious issue, which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health will need to consider in conjunction with the Treasury. We have heard about the examples of schools and the challenges for some of negotiating academy status because of existing PFI contracts. To conclude, this is a complex issue. It is not something that the Treasury can deal with alone. Some joined-up thinking needs to be applied to it across a number of Departments.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to be operating under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. It is a great thing that my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) has done in securing this very important debate, because he has raised a number of issues that have been challenged or discussed and, often, supported in useful ways.
The idea of securing a rebate is a good one. I know that the Treasury, in the form of Lord Sassoon, the Commercial Secretary to the Treasury, is busily doing just that—he is attempting to negotiate a rebate. I am not sure how well the negotiation is going, but it is clearly under way. So the concept of making savings, with of course the proviso that standards and services are not threatened, is well established. My hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire is absolutely right to push this issue further up the agenda. I salute that.
There is a question about off-balance sheet expenditure. It is right that that issue should be carefully considered. In the context of the green investment bank, we have already done that. The funding for that is now measured to about £3 billion. When our deficit is going down, that bank will be able to raise more capital. There is the same sort of issue, although obviously better controlled by the present Government than the previous one, in connection with the PFI.
I want you to cast your mind back to the time before PFIs got started in this country. Can you remember those schools that were designed poorly, built badly and maintained with no attention to longevity? I have buildings in my constituency that could have been much better designed and of much better quality. Indeed, a building that was literally knocked up in 1956—frankly, it was a disgrace—was recently knocked down. It was put up by a local authority as a technical college, and I could see when I first arrived in Stroud that it should have been knocked down years before. We must remember that PFI schemes have improved the quality of buildings, and in many cases that has improved the quality of services.
Mr Bacon
If my hon. Friend were to visit St Thomas Aquinas grammar school and Wellington college in Belfast, he might disagree. Wellington college was built under the PFI, and halfway through negotiations on what should have been a quality building the contractors suddenly said, “Sorry, these are off. Here is your L-shaped school.” St Thomas Aquinas school was procured conventionally. The schools were the same size, the same capital was available for both, and they had the same number of pupils and were of the same socio-economic background, but St Thomas Aquinas school ended up a much better quality school. I have spent a lot of time in both schools and have seen the difference for myself.
Neil Carmichael
I thank my hon. Friend for making a good point; I shall answer it later in some detail.
I turn next to the history of the PFI. It goes back much further than 1992. The United States has been using PFI schemes for decades because it wanted private money to be used to provide public utilities, roads and so on. The PFI has a history in the US, in many parts of Europe and in most regions of the world. We have plenty of experience of it. There is much activity in that sector that we can draw upon in order to improve the way in which it works. That is the key point.
PFI schemes have recently become far too complicated. As was pointed out earlier, in many of the original schemes things were simply designed, built and then maintained. More recently, however, we have been throwing in services and all sorts of extras. As a result, the process has become complicated; indeed, many of us have used that word today. That is largely because we have confused the original concept of the PFI by adding on services and so on. There is nothing wrong with that, but it brings me to the fact that we must get the procurement systems right. To do that, we must specify much more clearly what is wanted. Local authorities have to learn to do that, as must the health service; it is a question of commissioning. My hon. Friend, who represents a beautiful Cornish seat—it is in Cornwall, is it not?
Neil Carmichael
Devon: it gets better! My hon. Friend made that point rather well. It certainly needs to be considered, as specifying and procurement are critical.
We also need to understand value for money. Most PFI schemes under the previous Government did not seem to do so. The next big task is to define value for money. That will be helped if we get the data right and if we understand the systems in each project. Many people talk about the difficulties of PFI schemes in hospitals. I am not surprised, given that many hospitals cannot even tell you the cost of an operation. We need more data. If we have much more information about what is happening, it will inform the debate about value for money.
Another big problem is the lack of accountability in the decision-making process. I said that it is important to specify and procure properly, but if we do not hold those who do the specifying or procuring properly to account we will have only ourselves to blame. We need systems to ensure that specifications are clear and all-inclusive and produce the right procurement. We then need to ensure the right attitude to procurement, a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat).
Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)
I hope that my hon. Friend will forgive me telling a small anecdote. I remember being told a story by one of the famous bomber command air officers. When talking about procurement, he said, “The thing to do is not to make a small mistake, because if you do they can pursue you for it. The thing to do is to make an enormous mistake.” Is that not part of the problem? Enormous mistakes are being made, and we cannot possibly hold individual officials or politicians to account for such giant sums.
Neil Carmichael
I thank my hon. Friend for that. I do not like any mistakes; I do not like small ones, but I especially dislike big ones. We need a system that allows fewer of both, but particularly large ones.
David Mowat
It is about accountability and procurement. Much of what has been said this afternoon is about procurement failures rather than the failure of the PFI technique. I do not agree that people cannot be held to account for big procurement errors. Many organisations succeed in holding others to account, but the Government do not. I would be interested to know whether people in any of the procuring organisations involved in these awful contracts have been held to account—how many jobs have been lost and how many promotions have been missed—but my guess is not many on either count.
Neil Carmichael
I think that you are absolutely right if you agree with me that we need more accountability in the procurement and specification systems.
Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair)
Order. I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman. He is making an interesting speech, but I keep hearing “you.” I do not want to disrupt the flow, but I am aware that it happens sometimes.
Neil Carmichael
Thank you for being so understanding, Mrs Main. This is such a complex subject that you have to marshal your thoughts clearly.
The discussion of procurement leads me to the next big issue—the competitiveness of the tendering process. One of the difficulties is that there are not often enough bidders. That is not surprising, because the bidding costs are sometimes far too high. We therefore need to think about the competitive process and the bidding issue together. I believe that the answer is to make the contractual arrangements and the contracts simpler and more adaptable. You cannot alter a system as complicated as this by looking at one part of it and making some changes, because that will have consequences further down the line, but I think that bidding costs are indeed too high, largely because contracts are too rigid and too few organisations are looking into that as a mechanism.
One or two Members have mentioned income streams. That is a really good point. Most schemes with strong income streams have worked rather well. Those with no proper measure of income or service have not worked so well. We need to divide the concept of the private finance initiative into those schemes with strong and reliable income streams and those mainly to do with service and operation. The difficulty is that we apply the strict definition of the private finance initiative to virtually everything, when we have a much more flexible phrase—public-private partnership. That is what we should be thinking about, so that we do not get ourselves tied up in knots.
Mr Bacon
I have tried to resist intervening on my hon. Friend to ask him whether he realises that he is talking unutterable rubbish. First, if you have more specifying, you are obviously going to increase the costs hugely. As for public-private partnerships, I would encourage him to look at the London Underground PPP, where the finance costs were £500 million higher because of the complexity of the scheme, and because the Chancellor of the day detested Ken Livingstone, the professional fees added another £500 million. You—one, Mrs Main—must be careful to distinguish between the different facets. My hon. Friend said that clinical operations cost more in some hospitals than others. Of course he is right, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the PFI.
Neil Carmichael
Thank you very much. [Laughter.] You know, it is always great when someone makes a point in opposition that proves the point that is being made. If you keep changing the specifications, you will increase the complexity, making it harder for those who are procuring to understand, and the bidding process just goes awry. The real problem is that various organisations have not specified clearly enough and have not stuck to the specifications as first announced. Therefore, there have been far too many changes, sometimes as late as just before contract signing. That is what I am getting at. It is totally unacceptable. It wastes huge amounts of money—millions of pounds—and it puts off other bidders because, of course, they think to themselves, “Where are we in this? It’s a movable feast.” That is not what we want. We need to bolt it down, and that is why I emphasised the importance of specification. It is a really important point, and my hon. Friend has just proved it. If you keep changing the specification, you will always end up having a problem with a contract of any description. That is where I stand on that issue.
Finally, I want to mention the ridiculous business about light bulbs, car parking at hospitals and so on—the sort of things that we must get away from. That is really important. It is what the Treasury and indeed any organisation involved in such a situation should be moving away from. It is not acceptable; it causes a huge number of problems. It is nonsense to argue that an income stream for a hospital will be the car park for the patients who turn up to it. That needs to be stated. We need to get a grip on what the hospital is actually for and apply the logic of the contract to that. That is the answer to the second point made by my hon. Friend.
In summary, PFI has a role to play, but we must be imaginative about making sure that it works better. If we are going to be spending more than £200 billion on our infrastructure alone in the next decade or so, we will have to appeal more effectively to the private sector to dip into its pocket. Properly modified, PFI can do that. That does not mean that we should not be looking at rebates, and it does not mean that we should not be concerned about what is on or off the balance sheet and so on. It does mean that we must apply value for money on the scheme and ensure that it works for those who need it.
Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair)
Before Dr Thérèse Coffey makes her very eloquent speech, I am sure she will bear in mind that I have had very little to do with PFI schemes, and I would appreciate it if she were mindful of that.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
Thank you, Mrs Main. I appreciate your candour in admitting that you have had very little to do with PFI.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) for securing the debate. I commend his initiative and his ongoing campaign. I am not sure whether he has been nominated, but he is certainly my Back Bencher of the year for the work that he has done on PFI. It is a great scandal, Mrs Main, that this debate is being held in Westminster Hall. It is always good to debate PFI, but I feel that something of such importance—an emerging scandal that people are only just waking up to—should have been debated in the Chamber, with the full prominence that would be given there.
I was also concerned to hear earlier that evaluation of PFI projects is not being undertaken by the Treasury. Will the Minister tell us whether that can be reversed? Before I talk about some of the challenges of PFI, I want to assure people that I am not fundamentally opposed to PFI in principle; my concern is the legacy. We have heard many stories about that. The legacy has been a disaster and has tarnished the name of PFI, which could have been a force for good. It is a classic case of off-balance sheet financing. Not only will our generation pay for it, but future generations will continue to pay for that, as well as all the other debt accumulated by the previous, profligate Government.
On early memories and anecdotes that hon. Members were relating, I will not go on about light bulbs costing God knows what. However, I remember the first meeting of the all-party group on rural services when we heard from the deputy chief fire officer of a particular authority. His very last comment was, “For God’s sake, never allow me to sign another PFI contract again, because I didn’t have a clue what I was doing. In hindsight, I recognise that I made a huge problem for my fire authority. Because of that, I shouldn’t be here.” But he then went on to use the usual defence: “I didn’t know what I was doing. My accountant said it was fine, so I just signed the contract.” He was embarrassed, and it was good of him to say that, but that story is not unique. I am sure other hon. Members have heard such stories.
Indeed, we all received a briefing from the NHS Confederation: a wringing-their-hands exercise about “It was early in the ’90s; we didn’t know what we were doing; we’ve learned the practices now.” I wonder whether they have. I sent a message back to the confederation to ask what advice it gave to its member hospitals and trusts. It said, “It wasn’t our role to do so. It was the role of the Treasury and the Department of Health.” So I feel that a lot of buck-passing is going on. I know that that is in the past, but we are living with the costs today and will do so in future.
I logged on to the Partnerships UK database to see what PFI projects were awarded to Suffolk. There were only four listed, which surprised me, because I know of at least two others. The most recent PFI contract is a 30-year contract to be shared with Norfolk, and it is for six new police investigation centres, as they are called. Basically, they will be the new police cells. This contract dwarfs all the others: the East Anglia courts; the Wattisham married quarters; the hospital trust’s Garrett Anderson treatment and critical care centre in Ipswich; and indeed the fire and rescue service serviced accommodation PFI project.
We are spending £61.3 million on six centres that will be the new places where people are detained. I challenged that before I was elected. I was told that we had to have the new centres because of the recommendations of the National Policing Improvement Agency. The cost over 30 years for the contract, including the servicing, is £294 million. The budget goes from about £6.7 million spread across the two authorities to more than £11 million. My hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mark Pawsey) alluded to that. In the days of decreasing budgets, when we are trying to tighten our belts, we face the enormous cost of a brand-new building, which, frankly, is going to be used by prisoners. I am sure many people in Suffolk will be disappointed to hear that we will probably be losing front-line police officers to pay for what I see as a rather gold-plated building.
I genuinely hope that other savings will be found. I hope that we will improve our detection rates so extraordinarily that we will make the savings. I hope that people will not feel that they have got the bobby in the car driving people hundreds of miles back and forth between the detention centres, homes and courts instead of having the bobby on the beat. I hope that we will not be regretting this in the next few years.
Other projects have caught my eye. Apparently, the M1-A1 link road is a shadow toll road. As part of the PFI contract, the Government pay a fee—a toll—to the company. The numbers of journeys are more than double what was originally estimated, so the Government are happily paying through the nose for that. To be fair, as has already been suggested, I do not believe that we should condemn the private sector for how it has made significant amounts of money. Much of the fault lies with us as clients. People should look themselves in the mirror when they recognise the profits that they make from PFI. I have a wealthy constituent who stopped speaking to his brother because he was so ashamed of how much money he was knowingly making out of some of the contracts. He recognised that he did not have a sophisticated client.
Just a few weeks ago, the Government released their construction strategy in which they recognised that 80% of the challenges have been within internal processes. Change orders, which were mentioned earlier, classically add so much to the cost of a project, as does the lack of sophisticated negotiating. The Government are trying to change that, which is to be welcomed. The last piece will be for the construction team, along with financing, to come together and ensure that we have a simpler, focused contract that is flexible and appropriate for future needs.
As for the way ahead, I wish my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire would name and shame those institutions that have thus far not consented to voluntary repayments. I would also like to hear the results of Lord Sassoon’s review on the renegotiation of contracts, which was initiated in February.
I am delighted to hear that PFI is no longer the default place in which to look for capital; there are other sources available. Unlike under the previous Administration, it is not the only game in town. I am glad to see that we have a more balanced potential source of capital funding for the future. I shall conclude, because I recognise that others wish to speak. PFI will be one of the greatest scandals, so I congratulate my hon. Friend on bringing it to the attention of the House. Let us keep up the volume to ensure that this scandal is not repeated.
Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair)
We have four hon. Members still hoping to catch my eye and there are 30 minutes left before the wind-ups. I will now call Mr Mark Garnier, who I hope will be mindful of his colleagues.
Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to speak under one’s chairmanship, Mrs Main. [Laughter.] I also add my name to the chorus of congratulations for my near neighbour and hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman), who has not only secured this debate but worked so hard on the thorny issue of the PFI. His work includes his PFI rebate campaign, which I have enthusiastically signed up to. He has also managed to secure a Treasury Committee investigation into the future of PFI. It is good to see that four members of the Select Committee have come along this afternoon.
The PFI does not directly affect my constituency—there is only a magistrates court there under a PFI contract. However, it indirectly affects my constituents because they are served by the Worcestershire Royal hospital. Famously, Kidderminster hospital was downscaled to help pay for it. When my constituents hear that we have overspent on those contracts to the tune of half a billion pounds, they will be rightly even more furious than they were when the Government wound down Kidderminster hospital.
The PFI is something that we all love to hate. It has come to signify the inability of the public sector to write proper contracts and it is a symbol of trying to hide capital investments on the country’s balance sheet. However, is that a fair summary of what is a reasonably legitimate way of financing part of the supply side of the economy? I have certainly argued in the past that the public sector will always negotiate bad contracts for the simple reason that there is an asymmetry in negotiating skills. I am certainly not here to criticise the knowledge of public sector employees in terms of how to go about writing a contract. However, when it comes to a contract between the public sector and the private sector, we have, on one side of the table, a well-read and well-intentioned civil servant who is doing his best and possibly looking forward to his retirement, while on the other side we have a hardened businessman who is motivated by profit and return on equity and quite probably incentivised by direct equity in his business and a bonus for concessions won. A civil servant will certainly be very well educated in negotiating, but the hardened PFI negotiator from the private sector will have the concept of return on equity, risk evaluation and profitability etched into his DNA. There is no doubt that there is plenty of money to be made out of PFI for the astute negotiator.
Dexter Whitfield, director of the European services strategy unit, in his submission to the recent Treasury Committee investigation, highlighted the profitability of PFI equity sales—that is where a PFI contract is sold and the profit made is in addition to the profit that is gained on an ongoing basis. He pointed out that although there is little readily available information on PFI sales, the ESSU database holds 63 transactions covering 154 PFI projects, and he has looked at how much they have made. Average equity profit has been 50.6% on the 63 transactions. What is interesting is how they fare by sector. Health has been given a profit of 66%, housing 80% and leisure 86%. However, the truly eye-watering winner by miles goes to the defence sector, which has been giving PFI providers a whopping 134% profit on their equity sales. The Treasury Committee inquiry was lucky enough to have a representative from the PFI industry, one of the directors of Balfour Beatty, and he was surprisingly evasive in his reply to my questions, implying that that profit may have included the annual premium returns and therefore was not a fair judgment. But my interpretation is that PFI providers that have sold their investments have already made an annual return on the projects—that is perfectly reasonable, given the way that the projects are structured—but that the sale profit is in addition to that annual return.
What does that mean in terms of the contracts that have been negotiated? It seems that the valuation of risk, which is a key part of a contract, has been miscalculated in favour of the provider and it is that premium, in favour of the provider, that gives the opportunity for the sizeable equity sale profit. Indeed, the fact that there is someone out there to buy the equity stake with their own measure of risk and expectation of return means that there is still more to be made by the subsequent buyer, implying even further mispricing of risk.
That is the point. PFI projects do two things: first, they provide a so-called off-balance sheet way of financing a vital piece of investment; and secondly, they devolve the risk element of any project to the private sector. But the private sector will evaluate that risk and charge for it, and the evidence put forward by Mr Whitfield suggests that the PFI provider is making a great deal of that opportunity.
David Mowat
I have been listening very closely this afternoon to the points that have been made about the super-profits, the 180% margins and all the rest of it. I have also tried to hear the names of the companies that are making those profits and the only two that I have heard are Balfour Beatty and Bovis. My understanding is that neither of those organisations has a particularly high return on capital employed. So I am a little bit mystified as to where the money is going and I genuinely would like somebody to help me with that point.
Mark Garnier
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention—what a perfect opportunity for me to do so. These are the profits of equity sales by the companies concerned: 41% for Carillion; 59.1% for John Laing; 53.9% for Interserve; 78% for Lend Lease Corporation, so well done to that company; 42.9% for Costain Group; 20% for Serco Group, which was perhaps not the best investment for someone’s money; 71% for Balfour Beatty; and 59% for Kajima Partnership.
Mark Garnier
Those are the equity sale profits. So those companies are PFI providers who have then sold their contracts, and those figures are the profits they have made. Just to be fair, the figure was 56.3% for Kier Group. Those are pretty sizeable returns.
Jesse Norman
It is very important to distinguish two things. One is the internal rate of return, or IRR, of an investment, which is the annual amount by which it gets upgraded; the second is the value that a provider gets when it sells a share. We do not know the answer to this question, but those values are perhaps what they are in part because of the period of time that they have been held. If someone held a share in the London stock market for 10 years, they would see a certain uplift in its value. I do not know what the number is, but it might be 20%, 30% or 40%. It is that kind of thing. The contrast is with the returns that were being made, for example, with the Norfolk and Norwich university hospital, where the refinancing, which loaded up the hospital with £100 million of additional debt, realised an IRR—an annual upgrade in the return to the investors—of 60%. So what my hon. Friend is talking about might be, in fact, a 7% or 8% return each year. We just do not know, and that in itself is a great embarrassment for the previous Government, because we do not have the numbers.
Mark Garnier
My hon. Friend makes an incredibly important point. I suspect that what these numbers are telling us is that the annual returns are being treated rather like the dividends on an equity investment in the stock market and these capital returns—the sales of equities—are the capital return that the company gets. So they are already getting their annual rate of return and this money is in addition to what they would expect to receive if they ran the contract to the end. But we need to clarify that, because these are incredibly important points.
The Government are committed to the PFI and, as we have already heard, they have 61 new projects being procured as of earlier this year, with a value of £7 billion. That is not necessarily a bad thing because money is being invested into the supply side of the economy, and we need that investment to support our expectations of economic growth and to sort out the financial mess that the coalition Government have inherited. The PFI allows that investment to happen without any immediate impact on measures of public sector capital expenditure or borrowing. However, the efficiency case for the PFI rests on the model’s ability to allocate risk more effectively than regular procurement. To date, there seems to be no empirical evidence to support any claims that the higher price of PFI finance has offset any reduction in costs.
The efficiency case looks even more fallacious in the light of falling interest rates, as we heard earlier in the debate. The Government can borrow directly at around 3.3% and yet the IRR on a PFI contract is now 4% higher than that. That is a significant risk premium to be paid by the Government, especially when the PFI investor frequently offloads risks on to subcontractors. We have heard that before. Given that we have very low interest rates and can issue gilts on a 25-year basis, should that not be one way to look at financing some of the supply side of the economy?
Coming away from the financial side, I am not sure that some of the users of PFI facilities are always that happy. Wyre Forest was one of the areas that suffered under the cancellation of the Building Schools for the Future programme. I am continuing to work hard to get rebuilding finance for up to 11 of my local schools. We are waiting for the James review on that.
Wyre Forest secondary schools were to be built under PFI contracts. In private chats that I had with various head teachers and governors, they were concerned that a PFI contract would tie their hands financially, limiting their ability to determine their budgets and, therefore, investment in teaching and teachers. We all want new schools, but at what cost to education? PFI has a place in the future in terms of funding investment, but it has to be done at the right price. A lot more work needs to be done on ensuring that we get the end product at the right price. That is why I am incredibly grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire, for taking the initiative to question this important area so closely, and to work so hard for the future of PFI.
Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main, and I will try not to attribute too many of the flaws in PFI to you.
Steve Baker
I, too, would like to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) on securing the debate, and to pay tribute to his leadership, his courage and his intellect. As I listened to the debate, I noticed a strange thing: Conservatives verging on sounding like anti-capitalists.
Steve Baker
And indeed Liberals seem to have spoken as anti-liberals. I am perplexed by that. I would like to develop one point: how PFI fits into the nature of our society. I am reminded of something that Churchill said, which I think speaks to the third way. He said:
“Some people regard private enterprise as a predatory tiger to be shot. Others look on it as a cow they can milk.”
I will come back to how he finished the quote at the end. It strikes me that the third way seems to have turned private enterprise into a vampire squid to be suckered on to the faces of people on normal and low incomes.
I am pleased that my hon. Friend wishes to respect contract. Given that the world contains imperfect self-interested people, and given that we have imperfect knowledge of the world, it is important that we are secure in the institutions that we create and in which we operate. Therefore, I am delighted that my hon. Friend emphasised the need to respect contract and to seek voluntary renegotiation. I was particularly impressed that my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) hinted at the need for a moral basis on which to operate in capitalism and society. It is necessary that people do not simply blame procurement processes—much as they are an institutional factor—but look to themselves to behave decently.
There are many questions that we could discuss: who provides, who pays, where risk lies. However, I would just like to develop one point made by my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon), who said that fat cats are getting fatter at public expense. I believe that is broadly his remark. That reminded me of an old picture of the ancien régime in France, where the bureaucrats and princelings were riding on the backs of the poor. From what we have heard from Members of all parties, it seems that today we have a regime where the state and the clients of the state ride on the backs of everybody else.
It is strange that so much money is being funnelled to firms whose commercial risks are being underwritten by the power to tax. Far from protecting the poor, the state now seems to be an institution for protecting the rich from the risks they take with their own investments. I am a capitalist, and I believe that capitalism requires entrepreneurs and investors to bear their own risks. Somehow, through all this mire and mess that we find ourselves in, we need to recover the principles of a free society and a vision of a capitalism that works, and works for everybody.
The state has become an enormous player in society. It spends about half of national income, and we have ended up with far too many investors and companies looking to the state for its decisions. Where will it spend? What will it spend that money on? Whose risks will it underwrite? And so on and so on. It really is no good. If we wish to call this a free society—one in which people make their own way and flourish—we really do have to end the notion of the state as a giant player in society. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, at different times, has declared that the era of big government is over. I think that he is absolutely right, and I am delighted that that is the thrust of the Government’s direction of travel.
I think that the British public have a fantastic sense of fair play—that is one reason why Private Eye sells so well. I would like to share with the Government the final line of Churchill’s quote:
“Not enough people see it”—
capitalism—
“as a healthy horse, pulling a sturdy wagon”.
I congratulate the Government on bringing forward their paper, “Making Savings in Operational PFI Contracts”, but I urge them to go further, to try to recover that sense of fair play and regenerate those institutions of a free and fair society which support capitalism and support human flourishing, but above all, pass that Private Eye test.
Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)
I am conscious that my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) wants to speak, so I shall try to limit my speech to half the time remaining.
In this debate and as a member of the Public Accounts Committee, I have heard about many of the things that have gone wrong in PFI, but I want to focus not on the past but on the future. I shall do so by discussing three areas: first, contract design, because 61 PFIs are being planned; secondly, contract management, because there is a big disparity between private sector and public sector expertise, and I do not get a sense that it is being addressed, so it will continue to lead to poor value for money; and thirdly, if time allows I would like to touch on the secondary market, in particular the greater role that insurers and pension funds could play in certain elements of PFI and the regulatory task force that the Treasury has set up. It will be interesting to see how that will interplay and report back to the House.
First, on contract design, my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) mentioned bundling. We had rather disturbing evidence from a Treasury official at the PAC last week, who suggested that bundling remained necessary because without it the design and construction would not take on board maintenance costs in future. I suggest that they can be decoupled. It is possible to design and put out to tender in such a way that the construction risk is assumed through the PFI if required, by buying in management expertise from the private sector. However, the tail, where there is certainty of revenue, which is particularly attractive to other forms of finance companies, can be decoupled. That will also avoid some of the complexity of contracts, which is where the opaque pricing structures often lie and the legal costs come in. I would welcome clarity on the extent to which the 61 pending PFIs will be bundled.
Stephen Barclay
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is helpful for the Minister to look at that example as a benchmark.
Secondly, although I am conscious of time, I want to cover the public sector comparator. Hon. Members have touched on the fact that it has often been flawed, because the PFI was a way of taking deals off the balance sheet and it was the only show in town, but there have been other imperatives. There was a regulatory imperative—not to mention, with a lot of marginal seats in the north-west, a political imperative—to go ahead with the Manchester incinerator, even though it was, at 350 base points, over and above the 300 threshold that the Treasury had at the time. Likewise, there was a defence imperative to go ahead with the air tanker contract, which was appalling value. The existing fleet was falling apart and there was no fall-back position, so there was a defence need for that contract to go ahead. It would be interesting to get from the Minister a sense of the extent to which guidance has changed to guard against some of those risks, and how we as a House get visibility of whether a viable fall-back position has been developed for some of those 61 contracts.
Thirdly, specifically on defence, the response in the Treasury minute of December 2010 is a little ambiguous. It says:
“The Government does not agree with the Committee’s conclusion…on the applicability of PFI to Defence, but agrees with the Committee’s recommendation.”
It will be interesting to see how guidance on defence PFIs will be refined.
I welcome the appointment of David Pitchford in connection with the major projects defence review. That will be useful in addressing some of the problems we see with these contracts, such as their long-term nature and the increased costs.
Stephen Barclay
I will give way, but I wish to allow time for my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South to speak.
Stella Creasy
Briefly, does my colleague on the Public Accounts Committee share my concern that Mr Pitchford has said that he was not looking at PFI as part of his work in the Major Projects Authority? That seems to have been an oversight.
Stephen Barclay
I was just coming on to that exact point. Clarity would be welcome as to what falls under his remit.
Turning to management, my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South made a point about disparities. One disparity is that, to take as an example Innisfree, that firm has consolidated 24 hospital PFIs with one provider, while 36% of hospitals have fewer than one full-time equivalent person managing PFI contracts, and 12% have no one managing them at all. There is disparity in how contracts are being negotiated and managed, and even a good contract will be ineffective and poor value for money if it is not effectively managed.
In the Treasury minute it says that the Romford pilot, which health officials set great store by, will “hopefully” provide data that trusts can use, but there is no scope to enforce that and no requirement for an increase in the amount of data being asked for. Again, we hear that there is a potential solution, but that solution is not enforceable, the amount of data required will not be increased and there is no transparency in the expertise at the centre. The Department of Health has only four people providing PFI expertise, and the Public Accounts Committee will hopefully get a note from Treasury officials clarifying that.
Finally, in the secondary market there is a problem with regulatory arbitrage, with different treatment of insurers and banks in their access to the market. It is important that the Treasury arm that deals with regulation is joined up with the arm that deals with finance. On the refinancing taskforce, the acknowledgment that life insurance and pension funds are important alternative sources of finance is not clear in the February 2011 minute. It also states that
“the refinancing task force will act on this recommendation”.
That is very welcome, but how will it do it, and by what date? How will the House get scrutiny of that?
Perhaps the Minister can touch on these areas in her closing remarks. I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) for the work that he has done in this campaign and for the formidable way in which he has taken it forward.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) for shortening his speech to let me in—I hope it was worth it. Along with other hon. Members, I commend the hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) for his important initiative.
It seems to me that the PFI is a procurement technique that has been used over the past decade or so—perhaps for longer. Like any technique, it can be used wisely or poorly. There are certain instances, when a project has certain characteristics, when it is probably a good technique to use—for example, when there is a significant construction phase that is difficult. The private sector is able to do that, and we want to transfer the risk. I heard about the Edinburgh tram system on the radio this morning. That system is an appalling failure, and I do not think that it is a PFI project. PFI is a technique that also works when trying to minimise life-cycle costs, because there are some advantages in looking at the overall operability of a scheme as well as its construction.
The technique works best when the procurement contract is written in such a way that, over its period, it properly aligns the profits of the contractor with the interests of the client, and that is where contracts have gone wrong so frequently. It is a technique that also works best when the market is reasonably deep, so that value for money is achievable, and some of the points about how weak the market is are right. The PFI technique also works when there is reasonable certainty as to the nature of the contract that is needed, which is to say that multiple changes will not be made over a 20 or 30-year period. Again, one issue is that, in certain instances, we have been locked into hospital contracts, which, as health care changes come through, we are unable to alter.
Those reasons are why the PFI technique may be valid. There are instances, however, where we should not use PFI, and the overall reason why it has been a bad thing is that it has the characteristic of off-balance-sheet finance. It is a way of constructing a load of activity and projects without putting it on the public debt. I am sorry to say that—without being too political—the previous Government built many schools and hospitals in that way, and, frankly, those schools and hospitals will be paid for over a long time. That is a poor thing.
PFI also does not work if there are asymmetric negotiating skills, and we have heard much about that this afternoon. Unfortunately, that is the case in the example that my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) gave about the contractor’s interest and expertise. All that is true. It strikes me that the issue is also one of accountability. In an earlier intervention, I made the point that I see no accountability in public sector procurement, which is disappointing.
The consequence of all that is that we get the multiple messes that have been mentioned. I was interested in the example that was given by my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) of a hospital that is under pressure because work has had to be transferred to a PFI hospital, because exactly the same thing is happening to Warrington hospital due to a large PFI hospital being built just up the road and needing patients to satisfy the contract. That is an example of terrible failure.
I am delighted that the review of contracts is going on, but I want to raise several points that I do not fully understand. We have to be careful about opening up contracts that have been entered into in good faith, and we must be careful about bandying about profit figures. In my previous life, I had some contracts where I made a lot of profit, and I had some where I made so much loss that it could not be counted. It is only reasonable that all such activity is looked at in the round, so we must be careful. Regarding the list of organisations that was read out earlier, I reiterate that, as far as I am aware, none of those companies is making excessive profits in terms of return on capital employed or share price. We need to think through what is happening between the extraordinary profits that everyone is talking about and the fact that those publicly quoted organisations do not seem to making them.
It is worth trying to get some of the money back in the same way that the Cabinet Office has been doing for large consultancy and IT projects. However, what carrot are we giving to such people, who in many instances entered into contracts in good faith? From their point of view, they have carried out the contracts to the best of their ability. In the case of the Cabinet Office initiative, the bribe being used is the threat of not getting further contracts unless they play this game. That is a valid thing, and the directors, who have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders, can go back to their boards and say that they have a choice to make: they can either knock some money off or do no more work for the Government. That is their choice. In our discussions in this area, we must enable ourselves to create that choice for such organisations. I am not sure that characterising them all as money-grabbing private sector rogues is necessarily the way forward. I have heard a bit of that this afternoon.
I shall sit down now but, before I do, I again congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) on initiating the debate. The issue is very important and could have significant impacts on all our communities.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) on securing the debate. It has been a very interesting two-and-a-half hours so far, and I am sure that it will have been a very interesting three hours by the end of the debate. There has been an unusually high turnout for a Thursday afternoon debate, for which we are normally on a one-line Whip. During the afternoon, I gather that we have moved from a one-line Whip to a three-line Whip and back again to a one-line Whip, so hon. Members are free to go at 5.30 pm, if they really want to.
The hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire is right—or he at least makes a valid point for discussion—about a number of issues. He is right in saying that there has not been enough debate and scrutiny about the PFI issue in that past. That is partly because, as the debate has reflected, it often comes down to the devil being in the detail of individual contracts. It is hard to extrapolate from that general point whether the PFI is a bad thing or a good thing, or whether there are particular flaws in some of the contractual processes. I will come on to that in a moment, because it is a valid issue to thrash out.
The hon. Gentleman is also right in saying that not enough data are available on PFI schemes. I shall touch on some of the difficulties with the PFI. As I have said—I do not think he used this phrase—the devil is in the detail. We have heard some micro-detail about issues such as car parking, and the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) discussed a hockey pitch that was slightly too short and the difficulty in rectifying that situation. The hon. Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) touched on some local issues. The hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) and others mentioned the naivety of the civil servants who negotiated the deals and that perhaps a lack of commercial nous meant that they did not realise the private sector would seek to maximise profits over the contractual term. Other hon. Members then developed that point, and the hon. Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) talked about multiple procurement failures.
There was then a bit of a debate between the hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) and the hon. Member for South Norfolk, who made an intervention, about specifications in contracts. I am talking about this as someone who was once involved in negotiating PFI contracts when I worked for a City law firm at a very junior level—although I was pretty much photocopying the documents and proofreading, rather than doing the heavy duty negotiations. There is an issue about whether the process should be about over-specifying everything in advance—crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s—so that those involved do not get into complicated negotiations throughout the term of the contract. That is a laborious process. Perhaps there is some way of creating a PFI contract that is flexible enough not to get into such situations.
Let me give an example of a school in my constituency. An issue arose when new keys were needed for the room where the sports equipment was kept. Because that was not in the contract, the school was not allowed to get its own keys copied and had to get the contractor to copy the keys. It became a huge thing with huge costs attached, which is obviously ridiculous. However, it would also be ridiculous to have a contract—having photocopied them, I know how huge they are—that specified who was to get the keys copied, if another bunch of keys were needed. Those are certainly valid points, and I do not have the answers on how we can resolve that.
The wider point is whether such a situation is specific to the negotiation of PFI contracts or whether it is an issue with public procurement contracts generally. The hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) mentioned the asymmetry in negotiating skills between civil servants in the public sector or people in local government and hard-headed business people. That is an issue, but it also occurs in other public procurement realms as well as in relation to PFI schemes. The hon. Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) developed that into a philosophical discussion on the role of the private sector. Whether the conversation that we are having this afternoon is going down slightly too anti-capitalist a route for him is something that we could explore at greater length on another day.
In the limited time that I have left, I want to focus on a few questions for the Minister, who will respond in a moment. The Government have confirmed that they remain committed to the PFI model that was used by the Labour party. In their technical update last year, they said that they remain committed to public-private partnerships, including those delivered by the PFI, and that such arrangements will continue to play an important part in delivering Britain’s infrastructure.
As we have heard, PFI schemes are still expanding at a significant rate. In March, 61 new PFIs were procured with a total capital value of £6.9 billion, which represents an expansion of more than 10% in the total capital currently committed under PFI. The Government’s support is somewhat surprising given the criticisms that have been aired. Liberal Democrat Members were scathing about the PFI model before the general election. The Deputy Prime Minister described it as
“a bit of dodgy accounting—a way in which the Government can pretend they’re not borrowing when they are, and we’ll all be picking up the tab in 30 years.”
The Liberal Democrats called for a UK infrastructure bank that would reduce the cost of long-term funding compared with the PFI.
Before the election, the then shadow Chancellor said:
“The government’s use of PFI has become totally discredited…Labour’s PFI model is flawed and must be replaced.”
In 2009, he said that
“we are working on reforms to the discredited PFI model that are transparently accounted for and genuinely shift risk to the private sector.”
As I have said, a significant number of PFI projects are in the pipeline, so the work is still continuing. Will the Minister explain where the Government are on reviewing the PFI model? Have any changes been made to the PFI model since the Government were elected last year? Are further issues under consideration? Have the Government managed to save any money from the PFI?
In a document published in January, the Treasury said:
“Value for money is a cornerstone of PFI and the key rationale for its use.”
But the Financial Times reported earlier this year that the Government are struggling to find PFI savings. I appreciate that the pilot project involving the Queen’s hospital, Romford was launched in February to identify where savings could be made. Will the Minister tell us what savings have been found to date? I gather that that hospital was chosen because it is representative of a typical PFI project, so should we presume that the savings that are identified by the Romford project could be used as an example to make similar savings from other projects?
The Government must also decide whether the PFI is right in every case. Much has been said about Labour’s use of the PFI when it was in government, but, unfortunately, I do not have time to go into that. Although the PFI played a major role in delivering the Building Schools for the Future programme, it is a good example of where Labour used the PFI where it would deliver savings to the taxpayer, but used conventional procurement where appropriate. Of the BSF capital allocated up to 2011, 41% was provided through the PFI, with the rest coming from conventional public funding. In the NHS, 118 new hospitals would not have been built without the PFI—88 were provided through the PFI, and 30 were provided through conventional procurement. What principles are the Government working to in assessing the viability of PFI projects? In how many cases have the Government decided to use a non-PFI approach, because the PFI is not seen as value for money?
As my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) pointed out in the Public Accounts Committee today, 33 deals, which generated £38 million in profit last year, paid only £100,000 in tax. Treasury officials have confirmed that the tax consequence of the deal was part of the initial assessment of the contract, but subsequent changes, such as moving offshore, were not. Will the Minister confirm that she is looking into that issue? What steps will be taken in future PFI deals to prevent tax avoidance?
Finally, the PFI model allowed enormous investment to take place under the previous Government. It simply would not have been possible on that scale without the PFI, but we accept that the PFI should only be used responsibly and where it delivers the best value for money for the taxpayer. I accept that the issue deserves greater scrutiny, and I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say about how the Government can take that forward.
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine Greening)
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) for securing this debate. The topic is incredibly important, and he has done a brilliant job of raising it high up the agenda and rightly so.
We have heard from many Members today, but not from as many Opposition Members as we might have expected. Many Members feel that the PFI has, in their experience and their constituencies, let them down. Nevertheless, one of the qualities of today’s debate was the balance demonstrated by hon. Members. Not all PFI contracts have been bad. Many have delivered good contracts. There have been bad ones for the taxpayer and bad ones for the private sector. The one that is particularly close to my heart, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) has mentioned, is the public-private partnership for the London underground. Investment in my stretch of the underground was significantly delayed, because of its bad structure and the ultimate failure of both of the private companies that participated in it due to the losses that they were making as a result of their poor contracting. The topic is important.
My observation as an incoming Treasury Minister was that the background to the issue was all part and parcel of a much broader lack of financial management shown by the previous Government across government. I might address that later, if I have time, but I intend to leave a couple of minutes at the end to my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire to have a final say.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) and a number of other colleagues have pointed out, the main attraction for the previous Government in turbo-charging the PFI process was the fact that they were able to spend not only taxpayers’ money that was being earned at the time, but taxpayers’ money that had not even been earned and that would be earned at some point in the future. The main appeal of PFI for them was that it was off balance sheet. It was also unfortunate that it came at a time when that Government thought that they had abolished boom and bust and were saying that we all lived in the land of milk and honey. The general ethos that was applied to the public sector was to spend, spend, spend, get on with things, and be less worried about whether it was good value and just get on with the job at hand. My hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) pointed out how that impacted upon his local hospital.
We have some problems. I will discuss what the Treasury is doing to try to sort some of them out, but we seem to have three main issues. One is a lack of accountability, which is an inherent risk in these contracts, mainly because of their longevity and the fact that the people who set them up will not be there to manage them or be accountable for them throughout their duration. There is also an issue of transparency, and I will talk later about what we are doing in that regard. Underpinning all that is the need for value for money and for having contracts in place that deliver on behalf of taxpayers in the way in which they are meant to. My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) put it very well: PFI can work, but the challenge is making sure that, in structuring our contracts, we end up with a win-win situation for the private sector contractor, for the public sector and for taxpayers. We can do that, but the challenge that we saw over the past decade is that it just did not happen often enough.
The shadow Minister asked about the number of contracts that we have signed off. No PFI contracts have been approved yet by the new Government, and we have put in place much more stringent processes to ensure that any contracts that go ahead have a much better prospect of being good value for money.
My hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) asked whether the Government are looking closely to see how we can ensure that we get value for money. We are doing that—he is absolutely right to say that we should do it—and we are doing it across the board.
Many hon. Members discussed transparency, which I will discuss shortly. My observation is that one of the reasons why we are debating the PFI is that, ironically, there is perhaps more transparency in the PFI in some respects than there is across the rest of Government spend. One of the projects that I am leading on behalf of the Treasury is to introduce common chartered accounts. Any hon. Member who has been in business will find it fantastical to learn that the Government do not have common chartered accounts, but that is indeed the case. Once that system is in place, once we are able to upgrade the combined online information system database and once we can drive central Government further in terms of the transparency agenda, we will go through a similar process of lifting up the stone on central Government spend as we have done in relation to PFI contracts. Transparency is absolutely critical in that regard.
I want to outline where there is room for improvement. We are all aware that we face tough economic conditions and that we must ensure that we get value for money. The Government have already taken a number of steps to address many of the concerns about the use of PFI in funding public infrastructure, concerns that have been expressed in this important debate. I will go on to talk briefly about what we are doing in relation to existing contracts, but first I will talk about what we are doing to ensure that we can achieve good value for the taxpayer for new projects.
With new projects, value for money is, of course, the primary driver for the choice of procurement route. We are very clear that private finance should be used only when it can be demonstrated that it offers better value for money than a publicly financed alternative. As I have said, my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester made a powerful case in relation to that. We have already taken measures to strengthen the value for money assessment of new projects.
As the hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) pointed out, we abolished PFI credits in the 2010 spending review. Previously, funding for local government projects was ring-fenced. That had become a genuine cause for concern, because what it actually meant was that Government Departments and local authorities could use the PFI as a means to increase their budgets, with the potential for diverting funds away from more beneficial areas—areas that could have offered taxpayers better value for money. Now, the economic case for PFI projects must be compared by Departments and local authorities on a like-for-like basis with the other calls that they have on their budgets.
I have huge respect for my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk. His experience on the Public Accounts Committee goes back many, many years. As he pointed out, too often there has been insufficient competition and an insufficient ability for firms to compete. I actually felt that he was violently agreeing with my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) on the point about specifying contracts. The key is to specify contracts smartly, in other words tying down the details that need to be tied down in areas where we have certainty, as my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South pointed out, but leaving flexibility in other areas—the right areas.
I remember that that issue arose when I was serving on the Work and Pensions Committee when I first came into this House, which I very much enjoyed. We looked at the EDS contract in relation to the Department for Work and Pensions. That point—the importance of flexibility—was one of the key things that came out of that process. I am sure that EDS will not mind my putting this on the record, but one of the challenges that it faced was that it was dealing with a Government who wanted to specify absolutely everything and therefore the cost of the contract absolutely ballooned. In fact, what was needed for that system was to retain an element of flexibility for future demands as they evolved. The key to success in all these contracts is people understanding not only what needs to be tied down in terms of the contract but, critically, where flexibility must be left.
We have issued new guidance, which the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), asked about, to strengthen the approvals for PFI projects. As of 1 April this year, any centrally funded projects that are outside a Department’s delegated authority have to go through a rigorous three-stage scrutiny and approval process with the Treasury. To put that in context, previously the Treasury only reviewed PFI projects when they were at the outline business case stage. After that, it was only the risky ones that were further reviewed. We now have a three-stage scrutiny process, which means that projects are subject to far more scrutiny as they are being developed. In addition, the largest and most risky projects in Government will be subject to a review by the Major Projects Authority, which has just been established by the Minister for the Cabinet Office.
We have also published guidance to help public sector bodies identify savings in their PFI contracts. I will come on to the Romford case study in a second and provide hon. Members with an update. All the measures that I have outlined should mean that we are better placed to ensure that only those projects that offer the best value for money to taxpayers can go ahead, which is absolutely right.
As for operational savings, clearly we have a number of PFI projects that are in place and operating right now. Therefore, it is about looking at not only new projects but the existing stock of PFI projects. As many hon. Members are aware, we have taken a strong interest in the pilot savings project that is currently under way at the Queen’s hospital in Romford. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire said in a recent newspaper article, we have taken a deep dive to get under the skin of the project to see where we can save money. He raised the idea of a rebate. Although we want to drive savings, it is a challenge to do that with contracts that are already in place, as the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) pointed out. Nevertheless, we want to try to save money.
The pilot is nearing its conclusion, and we will be passing on the lessons that we have learned to the wider PFI portfolio—of course, there will some lessons that are not applicable. Given the commercial sensitivity of the pilot, it is probably inappropriate for me to comment in more detail before it is completed. However, I assure hon. Members that the pilot has made good progress and that there will be lessons that we can take from it to help to achieve better value for money from existing contracts.
My hon. Friends the Members for Wycombe and for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) asked about guidance. We have been seeking industry agreement to a new voluntary code of conduct to support the idea of achieving operational savings from other PFI projects. That is important not only for getting better value for money but for driving better standards of transparency, so it is clearer to the outside world what contracts are delivering for the general public. We also issued some draft operational savings guidance in January 2011. Therefore, although the pilot in Romford is still ongoing, we have already issued some guidance on where further savings can be made.
As for the PFI rebate, the Chancellor and the Commercial Secretary have both met my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire. We fully support the principle of making savings in PFI contracts and we will look carefully at how we can do that over the coming weeks, months and years.
The Government want to improve the financial transparency of PFI projects. We currently collect and publish data on each PFI project twice a year. That includes information on the capital value, the equity owners and the full stream of payments over a project’s life. The Cabinet Office is now publishing tender documents and contracts for all future central Government projects over £25,000, and that will capture privately financed projects.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) mentioned the PFI equity issue and the trading in secondary markets. We agree that more can be done in that area and that there is not sufficient transparency around investor returns, particularly with regard to secondary market sales. The Treasury is now collaborating with the National Audit Office to look at PFI equity issues, including not only transparency, but equity risk issues and equity returns. We are currently working with it to ensure that we scope that work stream effectively to obtain output that will be of use to the Government. We are also engaging with PFI investors and contractors to reach agreement on the voluntary code of conduct, as I have said, and transparency will form a critical part of that.
Value for money, not the accounting treatment, should be the key determinant of whether a PFI scheme goes ahead. We have talked briefly about the fact that public-private partnerships have been left off Government balance sheets. The whole of Government accounts project, which will be completed in the coming months, is basically, in a nutshell, the Government’s first set of consolidated accounts. They will be done under international financial reporting standards—in other words, proper accounting standards—and they will put that liability on the balance sheet, so giving us a sense of what it is for the first time. That will show the massive liabilities that were run up by the previous Government not only for our generation but for future generations.
The Green Book covers offshore tax. I understand the point made by the hon. Member for Walthamstow. From my experience of having worked in business, of course we want to look at the bottom bottom line, but we also need to be pragmatic in understanding that companies will always look at their tax position. If they think that they are having to move onshore and are disadvantaged by doing so, there is always a sneaky suspicion that they will recoup that lost cost elsewhere. It is not quite as straightforward as simply saying that we should not use any company based offshore.
The key challenge for us all is to ensure that we have a more competitive tax system in the first place that does not drive companies offshore, which is why we are reducing corporation tax year on year. I very much hope that the hon. Lady will find time to support and vote for that when the Finance (No. 3) Bill finally goes through. The best way to tackle offshore tax is to have a competitive tax regime that makes companies want to stay in the UK and be based here for tax in the first place.
Stella Creasy
I am interested in what the Minister has said. Does that mean that the Treasury will rewrite the Green Book, so that it does not take account of the potential tax take under a PFI, if she is saying that offshore tax avoidance is unavoidable in some circumstances, given that it is part of the value-for-money decision on a PFI? There is a specific point about PFI and tax, so will the Green Book be rewritten, so that it is not part of the decision in future?
Justine Greening
We are not going to rewrite the Green Book. My point is that there are a number of variables in any PFI contract. There are several variables in the overall propensity for it to be profitable for the taxpayer in relation to value for money or for the private sector firms considering engaging in it. Tax is one of those variables. Obviously, it can change, as can the costs, which the parties to the public-private partnership for the tube discovered once they became engaged in it. We need to tackle the underlying issue that, under the previous Government, Britain became uncompetitive in the corporation tax world. We have got to get back to being more competitive over the coming years, which is exactly what we plan to do.
We are working on the skills agenda across Government. I do not have time to go into that now, because I want to give a minute to my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire. I assure hon. Members that we recognise that, as does the civil service. There is currently a huge review of skills going on across government to ensure that we have the right skills in place. We have therefore taken a number of steps. I know that my hon. Friend wants to come in, so I will conclude my remarks.
Jesse Norman
I am grateful to you, Mrs Main, for permitting me to speak again. I want to thank everyone who has contributed today. It has been a fascinating and extraordinarily enriching debate. I thank the Minister and the shadow Minister. I especially thank the Minister, who is not formally responsible for PFI, for discharging that responsibility today.
I have three short comments. First, the claim that without the PFI projects would not have been built is not true. A cheaper PFI could have been devised under which they would have been built. Secondly, far from being difficult to negotiate, a rebate is under way as we speak, and that process will culminate in the code of conduct that the Minister mentioned. I welcome the support given to the code of conduct by the Minister and other Ministers all the way up to the Chancellor. Thirdly, we need a wider debate, and I hope that we will have it in the main Chamber soon.
Written Ministerial Statements
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Apprenticeships (Creation of Opportunities)
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning (Mr John Hayes)
One of the first announcements I made as Minister of State for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning was that the Government would redeploy £150 million of Train to Gain funding to deliver an additional 50,000 adult apprenticeships. A commitment to apprenticeships which was reinforced by the Chancellor in the comprehensive spending review and the Budget.
Fulfilling our ambitions was bound to be challenging given the difficult economic circumstances.
As we publish the latest “Statistical First Release” today, I am, therefore, delighted to be able to confirm that we have greatly exceeded this ambition. Provisional data show that the Government have delivered 326,700 apprenticeship starts in the first nine months of the 2010-11 academic year—this is 114,000 more than the previous year and more than double our ambition. The growth has been across sectors, at all ages and all levels. There has also been an increase in participation levels for 16-18 and 19+ learners. Final data covering this period will be reported in the January “Release”. The full report can be downloaded from the website at: http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current.
This is an historic achievement not just for Government but for employers, training providers and learners too. We have given colleges greater freedoms and flexibilities to meet the needs of businesses in their communities—consequently they have harnessed a very strong evidence base to persuade employers to invest in apprenticeships. Providers and employers have worked closely with the National Apprenticeships Service and Skills Funding Agency to deliver these impressive additional apprenticeship starts.
This growth proves that employers recognise apprenticeships to be a sound platform for long term economic prosperity. To build on this work we are now focusing on encouraging firms who have not taken on an apprentice before to do so and helping those who have to expand their programmes particularly at advanced and higher levels. I hope that this year’s expansion is part of a step change in attitudes towards the recruitment of apprentices.
The significant progress on apprenticeships is part of our wider programme of reform of further education and skills. This will make a crucial contribution in securing sustainable economic growth.
I have placed a copy of the letter I sent to all hon. Members in the Libraries of both Houses.
EU Extraordinary Competitiveness Council
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)
My noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State, Baroness Wilcox, has made the following statement:
I shall represent the UK at an EU Extraordinary Competitiveness Council that will take place in Luxembourg on 27 June 2011.
There will be legislative deliberation on two Council items. The first is a proposal for a Regulation of the Council and the European Parliament implementing enhanced co-operation in the area of the creation of unitary patent protection. The second is a proposal for a Council Regulation implementing enhanced co-operation in the area of unitary patent protection with regard to the applicable translation arrangements.
The presidency’s main aim is to obtain a general approach from member states on the two proposals.
There is also likely to be an information point relating to the adoption of a general approach on the decision on the Euratom framework programme for 2012-13.
Government Communication
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
I am today announcing reforms to the organisation of Government Communication.
The changes, which will lead to the closure of the Central Office of Information, will further improve the effectiveness and efficiency of Government communications.
They follow the introduction of spending controls on advertising and marketing in June last year. This led to a 68% reduction in external spend through the COI from £532 million in 2009-10 to an estimated £168 million in 2010-11. In parallel, Government Departments have reduced their number of in-house communications staff by around a quarter, and their budgets by a half.
The reforms are designed to consolidate those reductions, while ensuring that the remaining spend on advertising and marketing is better co-ordinated and executed.
The changes will:
Strengthen central co-ordination, prioritisation and strategic planning of communications across Government;
Put in place a new governance structure to increase accountability and transparency and to drive collective responsibility. This will include the appointment of an executive director, and the establishment of a communications delivery board;
Create a specialist communications procurement unit under the leadership of the Government Procurement;
Enable Government to explore how they can best capitalise on the capability which exists in communications across Government, through a programme of reviews;
Explore the development of a shared communications delivery pool for certain specialist services; and for a small number of specialist marketing hubs.
These proposals will constitute the Government’s response to the former permanent secretary for Government Communication’s “Review of government direct communication and the role of COI”.
Abolition of Regional Spatial Strategies (Government Response)
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles)
I have today laid before Parliament the “Government Response to the Communities and Local Government Committee’s Report: Abolition of Regional Spatial Strategies: a planning vacuum” (Cm 8103). Copies are available in the Vote Office.
I welcome the Committee’s report and I have carefully considered its findings. The debate has helped to inform the amendments that we made to the Localism Bill at the Commons Report stage to strengthen the duty to co-operate and my Department will continue to take the findings into account as policy is developed.
The Government’s top priority in reforming the planning system is to promote sustainable economic growth and jobs. We made clear in the growth review that our top priority in introducing the national planning policy framework will be to support long-term sustainable growth, through both development plans and decisions on planning applications.
We have made it plain that our decision to remove regional strategies was based on clear evidence that they did not work. We are determined to address this through our clear and comprehensive approach to reform: promoting economic growth and recovery through incentives such as the new homes bonus and a reformed community infrastructure levy; encouraging local authorities to work together effectively across their boundaries through a strengthened duty to co-operate; and driving house building by combining the incentives we are introducing with the removal of top-down targets.
Ordnance Survey (Performance Targets 2011-12)
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill)
My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State, Baroness Hanham, has made the following written ministerial statement:
I am today announcing that performance targets have been agreed for Ordnance Survey for the period 2011-12. The Ordnance Survey will report externally against these targets as is required of all Executives agencies in Government. The targets are:
To achieve an operating profit before exceptional items, interest and dividends of £25.3 million for the financial year 1 April 2011 to 31 March 2012.
To achieve a free cash-flow before exceptional items of £24.2 million for the financial year 1 April 2011 to 31 March 2012.
Some 99.6% of significant real-world features greater than six months-old are represented in the database.
To continue to reduce the underlying cost base of the business by on average 5% per annum measured against a baseline of 2008-09 costs.
To achieve a customer index score of at least 80%.
These targets reflect Ordnance Survey’s continuing commitment to customers, to implementing the business strategy announced in April 2010, to maintaining and delivering intelligent geographic information to all users, and to offering improved value for money for all, as well as a commitment to Government policies.
Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre (Targets 2011-12)
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill)
My noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, Baroness Hanham, has made the following written ministerial statement:
I am today announcing that key performance targets have been agreed for the Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre for the period 1 April 2011 to 31 March 2012.
The agency’s principal financial target for 2011-12 is to achieve a minimum dividend payment to the Department for Communities and Local Government equal to the total of 6% of average capital employed and a sum equal to the capital charge that applies to the building for the year concerned. Therefore, the agency’s budget for 2011-12 includes a minimum dividend payment of £1,100,000. An additional dividend of £100,000 will be paid if the financial forecast for the year is achieved.
The agency also has the following targets to achieve:
A 54% occupancy of its rooms based on a theoretical full occupancy revenue of £9,680,970;
Overall score for value-for-money satisfaction of greater than 90%;
The number of complaints received to be less than two per 100 events; and
An average response time when answering complaints of less than four working days.
Libya (Operation Ellamy)
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Liam Fox)
The current estimate of the net additional costs of military operations for six months in support of Operation Ellamy—the United Kingdom’s contribution to coalition operations in support of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973—is in the region of £120 million. This excludes costs associated with capital munitions expended.
Based upon current consumption rates we estimate the cost of replenishing munitions may be up to £140 million.
The Treasury has agreed to meet these costs from the reserve.
Use of Force in Schools
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Education (Mr Nick Gibb)
The Secretary of State for Education has asked Charlie Taylor, the Government’s expert adviser on behaviour and an experienced and successful head teacher with a track record in radically improving behaviour in troubled schools, to review the implications for schools of the requirement to record and report the use of force in schools, as set out in section 246 of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009. In particular, Charlie Taylor has been asked to make sure that the accompanying guidance provides the best possible advice to schools on establishing “light touch” systems while still providing protection for pupils and staff. It remains our intention to commence this requirement from 1 September 2011, subject to the outcome of Charlie Taylor’s review.
Energy National Policy Statements
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne)
On 18 October 2010, I laid the revised draft “Energy National Policy Statements” before this House. At the same time, I undertook to present the finalised statements to Parliament for approval.
Having considered the responses to consultation and parliamentary scrutiny on the revised draft Energy National Policy Statement, and the outputs of the interim report of the chief nuclear inspector, Dr Mike Weightman, on lessons to be learned from events at Fukushima, I am pleased today to be able to present the six energy NPSs for parliamentary approval. This represents a further important milestone in the coalition Government’s determination to make the UK a truly attractive market for investors, to give us secure, affordable, low-carbon energy. NPSs are critical to the new planning system, which will help developers bring forward energy projects without facing unnecessary hold-ups, while making sure local people get a chance to have their say about how their communities develop, and decisions are made in an accountable way by elected Ministers.
The Energy National Policy Statements therefore form a key part of our plans to move to a low-carbon future while protecting the security of the UK’s energy supplies. Business and industry frequently tell us that investment in infrastructure is key to enabling them create the growth and jobs the UK needs. NPSs will provide market certainty by giving developers confidence to bring forward applications to build the infrastructure we need. This will ensure the UK has diverse sources of generation and remains at the forefront of low-carbon technological development, and in turn will enable us to generate jobs and growth in this rapidly expanding sector.
NPSs do this by setting out the need for new energy infrastructure, including electricity from a mixed portfolio of all types of generation. They provide a clear framework for decision-making on planning applications for major energy infrastructure, protecting local communities from unacceptable impacts while ensuring that “nimbyism” does not get in the way of meeting the national need for energy.
Together, the NPSs set out national policy on a number of key energy policy areas. Five of these cover specific technologies: fossil fuels; renewables; gas supply and gas and oil pipelines; electricity networks; and nuclear. These five sit below an overarching energy NPS, and together they play an important role in the new planning system for major infrastructure. This new system, as proposed by the Localism Bill, retains the consultative approach (both on the NPSs and the consultation of local people in individual applications) and the transparency of the IPC system while increasing democratic accountability through returning the final decision to Ministers.
Parliament has already played a valuable role in scrutinising the revised draft energy NPSs both here and in another place. I would like to thank the Energy and Climate Change Committee for its report, all those who contributed to the debate in this House, and those in another place who also undertook important scrutiny work on the earlier drafts. I am today taking the opportunity to lay before you the Government’s response to Parliament alongside the revised NPSs.
I am today also publishing a Government response to the latest consultation, to which there were over 2,500 responses; a draft of the post-adoption statement on the Appraisals of Sustainability which informed the drafting of the NPSs; and the monitoring strategy which sets out how we will monitor the significant environmental effects of implementation of the NPSs.
Copies of all these documents have been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses and are available at: http://www.energynpsconsultation.decc.gov.uk
The House has provisionally set aside time for a debate on these documents before the House of Commons votes on them.
Oil Stock Release
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne)
The UK today joined its partners in the International Energy Agency (IEA) in releasing oil stocks to the market. A total of 60 million barrels of oil will be made available to the market over the next 30 days, with the UK contributing some 3 million barrels.
Violence in Libya and Yemen has disrupted the global supply of oil, and we expect the loss of Libyan light sweet crude production to continue for some time. Low seasonal demand has enabled markets to cope so far with the loss of production. However, we expect the market to come under increased pressure in the coming months due to the normal seasonal upturn in demand. The action taken today will help ensure that the market does not tighten further. The global economy is still emerging from recession, and it is essential that this recovery is not endangered by oil supply disruptions or shortages. Volatile oil prices damage the economy of every country. The impact is disproportionately high on the poorest countries in the world, who are most vulnerable to rises in energy prices and the knock-on impact on food prices. Adequate volumes of oil must be made available at a price acceptable to both producers and consumers.
Earlier this month Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states committed to increase oil production to supply whatever the market needs: this is a helpful action by responsible producer nations, and we believe it will ensure the oil market is adequately supplied in the coming months and beyond. The stock release is designed to complement the action by Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states by making available light crudes and refined products. The stock release will help prevent short term supply disruption driving a more volatile oil price, that could damage the UK economy and threaten the global economic recovery.
Veterinary Medicines Directorate (Annual Report and Accounts)
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)
The 2010-11 annual report and accounts for the Veterinary Medicines Directorate was laid before Parliament today.
Youth Justice Board (Abolition)
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
I am today announcing further detail on the Government’s plans for the future national governance of youth justice. It is my intention to abolish the Youth Justice Board (YJB) and to bring its key functions into the Ministry of Justice (MoJ). My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the Minister responsible for civil society, the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd), will be bringing forward a Government amendment to reintroduce the YJB to schedule 1 (the list of bodies to be abolished) of the Public Bodies Bill currently before this House.
The Youth Justice Board was set up in 1998 to oversee what was then a fractured and immature system. In the past 12 years the system has changed considerably. In response to a lack of cohesion and collaborative working, the YJB has overseen the national roll-out of youth offending teams and the establishment of a distinct secure estate for young people. These core elements of the youth justice system are now fully operational in the local delivery of youth justice. Given these significant improvements, I believe that we no longer require a separate body to provide oversight of the youth justice system.
Effective oversight can be better achieved by bringing this function closer to Ministers; and it is right that Ministers themselves—not unelected officials in arm’s length bodies (ALBs)—should be responsible for youth justice, which is a critical area of Government policy. It is Ministers who should lead and drive forward the work that will result in further reductions in the numbers of young people entering the youth justice system, the numbers of young people reoffending and the numbers of young people in custody. By bringing youth justice closer to Ministers, the new Youth Justice Division I am establishing will be a powerful impetus behind future improvement, will be able to influence policy across Government and will ensure that other Departments play their part in stopping young people from becoming involved in crime and reoffending. An ALB does not have the appropriate policy leverage within Government to effect such change.
The abolition of the YJB will not have an adverse impact on the delivery of youth justice on the ground. The Government intend to retain youth offending teams, which are well embedded in local structures. My Department will also continue to place young people separately to adult offenders in a dedicated secure estate that is driven by the needs of young people. There will be clear ministerial oversight of this.
It is my intention to carry out the main functions of the YJB within a newly created youth justice division in the MoJ. The Youth Justice Division will continue this Government’s focus on meeting the needs of children and young people in the youth justice system and will deliver the main functions of the YJB—overseeing the delivery of youth justice services, identifying and disseminating effective practice, commissioning a distinct secure estate and placing young people in custody.
The Youth Justice Division will be a dedicated part of the MoJ and will sit outside of the National Offender Management Service. It will ensure that the commissioning of the youth justice secure estate and the placement of young people in custody will continue to be driven by people who have a dedicated focus on the needs of young people. The structure will also ensure that youth justice work in the community—primarily conducted by youth offending teams—remains closely linked to work with young offenders in custody. This is at the heart of our ambitions for a “rehabilitation revolution”.
I can confirm that John Drew, the current chief executive of the YJB, has agreed to lead the transition of the YJB into the new Youth Justice Division structure and to continue to lead it beyond that. I am confident that he will ensure there is continuity between the YJB and the new Youth Justice Division. He will also help to ensure that the new organisation is embedded in the MoJ while retaining the experience and expertise of YJB staff.
My Department will also strengthen its focus on youth justice by establishing an advisory board of stakeholders and experts to advise on youth justice issues and to provide expert challenge and scrutiny. In addition, Dame Sue Street, a non-executive director of the MoJ who brings experience and knowledge of youth justice, will be taking an active interest in youth justice within MoJ, and will have a direct route into the Department through the permanent secretary and Secretary of State.
In making this decision I have taken into account the concerns expressed by some interested parties and noble Lords about the abolition of the YJB and our plans for the future governance of youth justice. My Department will consult on the YJB’s inclusion in the Bill over the summer, and I will pay close attention to the responses. My reform proposals are also subject to the progress of the Bill through Parliament, and the abolition of the YJB will require me to lay an order, subject to affirmative resolution process. This proposal has therefore already been widely discussed with stakeholders and will continue to be subject to consultation and to full and appropriate parliamentary scrutiny.
Air Travel Organisers' Licensing (ATOL) (Consultation)
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
I am pleased to announce that a consultation on reforming the air travel organisers’ licensing (ATOL) scheme is being published today.
Since its inception some 40 years ago, the ATOL scheme has successfully protected many millions of consumers on flight-inclusive package holidays against the insolvency of their travel company. However, the travel trade and holiday market has seen significant change and diversification in recent years. There are now many holidays available which look like packages but do not fall under the legal definition and so are not protected under the ATOL scheme.
There is a strong case for reforming the scheme to better reflect today’s holiday market so that consumers can be clear when their holiday is protected, allowing them to understand and use their legal rights. In addition, the scheme has operated with a deficit for some years and is supported by taxpayers through a Government guarantee. The reforms should put the ATOL scheme on the path to financial self-sustainability, with a view to ending the need for taxpayer support.
The consultation document sets out the details of the “in principle” decisions I announced on 3 February, Official Report, columns 56-57WS. These were:
Extending the ATOL scheme to flight-plus holidays comprising a flight and other component bought within two successive days;
That everyone booking a ATOL protected package holiday or flight-plus will get a recognisable “ATOL certificate” confirming their rights under the scheme for refunds and repatriation should their travel company fail;
Helping ensure that “agent for the consumer” businesses arranging holidays are fully aware of their legal responsibilities to consumers.
It contains the draft secondary legislation needed to implement the first two measures.
This is an important first step towards reforming the ATOL scheme. These reforms will address a major area of uncertainty for consumers when buying holidays from tour operators and travel agents. The additional ATOL protection contributions at £2.50 per booking should help the scheme become financially self-sustaining within three years.
Importantly, the reforms pave the way for further potential change to the ATOL scheme in the medium to longer-term. Once the scheme’s deficit has been paid off and the guarantee withdrawn, there is an opportunity to consider how funding repatriations and refunds might best be arranged in today’s market. The consultation seeks initial views on this, to inform more detailed work to be undertaken by the Civil Aviation Authority later in the year and into 2012.
The consultation also asks stakeholders about bringing holiday sales by airlines and those arranged on an “agent for the consumer” basis into the scheme. These would require new primary legislation. The Bill to reform airport economic regulation could provide a vehicle to make the necessary changes if the Government decide to go ahead with these further reforms. Decisions on reforms needing new primary legislation are planned for the autumn and may also need to take account of work under way by the European Commission on the future of the package travel directive.
The consultation closes on 15 September 2011. My aim is to announce decisions in the autumn on the way forward on the reforms dependent on new secondary legislation. Subject to consultation responses, the intention is for the reforms to come into effect on 1 January 2012, so consumers have the benefit of the additional protection from their summer 2012 holidays.
Copies of the consultation document are available from the Department’s website, www.dft.gov.uk.
EU Transport Council
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond)
I attended the second Transport Council of the Hungarian presidency in Luxembourg on 16 June.
The Council reached a general approach on a directive which recasts the 2001 first rail package. The 2001 legislation set the initial framework for a single European rail market, setting out principles for charging and access to the network. The present draft directive modifies the three 2001 directives. The presidency tabled a compromise text which was slightly amended at the Council. The presidency then concluded that there was a qualified majority for a general approach. The text of the general approach is acceptable to the UK.
The Council also reached a general approach on the draft regulation amending Regulation 1406/2002, which established the European Maritime Safety Agency. This amending regulation modifies and extends the tasks of the agency to bring them in line with recent international and EU developments in the maritime safety field. I set out the UK’s opposition to any staff or administrative cost increases for the agency, and was able to accept revised wording on agency resources, which addressed our concerns.
The Council debated the European Commission’s recent White Paper, “Roadmap to a Single European Transport Area—Towards a competitive and resource efficient transport system”, which was issued in March. The Council debate centred on a number of questions put by the presidency.
The White Paper aims to increase the sustainability and competitiveness of the sector while moving towards a fully integrated transport network. In doing so, the Commission aims to cut carbon emissions from transport by 60% by 2050 (compared to 1990 levels). Member states broadly agreed that the transport sector has to make an adequate contribution to the achievement of the medium and long-term climate change targets. I explained that, while supporting the broad thrust of the 10 goals in the White Paper, the UK has some concerns on the detail.
We are not in favour of having targets for their own sake, and do not think that it is practical or desirable to have a multiplicity of goals and targets. Furthermore, we do not support sector specific targets, which would constrain our progress on carbon reduction within the economy as a whole. Wherever targets are set, we believe that they must be realistic and supported by robust evidence and cost impact analysis. I also joined others in proposing that we work internationally to negotiate similar commitments with all of the global partners, in the framework of international organisations.
I stressed that the EU should focus on actions that need to be undertaken at EU level, and where there was no such case, it should be left to member states and local authorities to act. I also welcomed, with support from some other Ministers, the Commission’s commitment to undertake thorough impact assessments for any actions. I urged the Commission to consider the importance of reducing the overall burden of regulation, to help our businesses and the budgetary constraints that we all face, as it takes forward the White Paper proposals.
Council conclusions were adopted on EU inland waterway transport, inviting the Commission to launch a project to continue support for an existing inland waterway programme, which is designed to encourage modal shift of freight from road to inland waterways, and to bring forward proposals for a follow-on programme. The conclusions are acceptable to the UK.
The Council adopted a decision on the signing and conclusion of an agreement with the Intergovernmental Organisation for International Carriage by Rail on the EU accession to the convention concerning International Carriage by Rail (COTIF) of 9 May 1980, as amended by the Vilnius protocol of 3 June 1999. The decision is acceptable to the UK.
The Council adopted two decisions in the area of aviation external relations, both of which were acceptable to the UK.
The first decision authorised the Commission to open negotiations with Moldova on a comprehensive air transport agreement.
The second was a decision on the signature of an air transport agreement between the EU and Brazil. Ministers pre-signed the agreement in the margins of the Council.
Among AOB items, the Commission reported on air cargo security work which has been carried out in pursuit of the action plan endorsed by Ministers at the December 2010 JHA and Transport Councils. They were disappointed that a proposal to strengthen EU inbound air cargo security had been narrowly defeated in the June Regulatory Committee, and called on Ministers from member states which voted against or abstained to rethink their position, I joined Germany in expressing strong support for the Commission, and called for work to continue on the proposal.
Also under AOB, the Commission reported on work to deal with the impact of volcanic ash on the EU aviation sector and on recent developments in implementing the Single European Sky. On volcanic ash, I underlined the importance of developing the existing methodology and modelling, and increasing pressure on equipment manufacturers for engine tolerance levels.
In the margins of the Council, I met Ministers from France, Germany, Ireland and the Netherlands to discuss the work on volcanic ash. In a separate discussion, I exchanged views on better regulation with the Netherlands Minister.
The UK abstained on one item on the A point list, namely the adoption of a Council decision on the conclusion of a memorandum of co-operation between the EU and the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO). This reflects our general need to be vigilant regarding the balance between member states’ and EU competence in UN bodies and other international organisations.
Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council: 17 June 2011
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)
The Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council met on 17 June 2011 in Luxembourg. I represented the United Kingdom.
In the first discussion on country specific recommendations (CSRs), the Commission recalled that its annual growth survey had shown that recovery was under way, but it was uneven and could be reversed. Without fundamental reforms, any progress remained on shaky ground. The CSRs were an integral part of the Europe 2020 strategy and gave an in-depth analysis of the reforms needed in each member state. They were a tool for improving economic reform without infringing on member state sovereignty. For the UK, I highlighted the difficulties linked to the time frame and process and stressed that this should be improved in future years. I also put down a parliamentary scrutiny reserve. The presidency noted that a general approach could be adopted, and recalled reserves from some member states.
The second discussion focused on demographic change and effective family policies. A number of member states intervened, stressing the importance of providing support for parents in the workplace to ensure they could reconcile work and family life, for example through flexible working opportunities, prevention of gender stereotyping, and proper enforcement of equal treatment legislation. The Commission also thought that this should be a priority issue.
There were three progress reports. On the pregnant workers directive, the Commission acknowledged it would be difficult for member states to accept the European Parliament amendments and proposed going forward on the basis of a “passerelle” clause. There was very little support for this and I along with some other member states warned against progressing towards a common position. On the co-ordination of social security systems, I tabled a minute statement together with 12 other member states, on the relationship between the social security co-ordination regulation and the free movement directive. This stressed the importance of achieving a clear and coherent understanding of the relationship between the two at the European level, and suggested that amendments to the current legislative framework could be needed to achieve this. On the equal treatment directive, the presidency reported progress on its examination of the proposal based on a questionnaire focusing on national legislation.
Three sets of Council conclusions were adopted. These were on promoting youth employment to achieve the Europe 2020 objectives, reconciling work and family life in the context of demographic change, and tackling child poverty and promoting child well-being.
Under any other business, the Hungarian presidency reported on conferences they have hosted and provided information on social and employment related aspects of the legal migration directives. The Commission reported on the United Nations convention on the rights of people with disabilities and also presented a new proposal amending the existing electromagnetic fields directive. The Cypriot delegation provided information on the forum on the future of democracy. The French delegation introduced their G20 priorities for social and employment. The incoming Polish presidency presented their presidency priorities.
Community Care Grants and Crisis Loans
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)
Today we are publishing the Government’s response to the call for evidence on how the new locally based service to replace assistance currently given through community care grants and some crisis loans should be delivered.
We received responses from an array of organisations, many providing thoughtful and constructive contributions that will support the development of the new local services.
This initial body of evidence is an important building block in the reform process and will help to direct our thinking during the next stages of the planning process. The Government response captures the key issues and themes that have emerged and sets out our response. It also includes new information about the current scheme that has not previously been published that will help local authorities in developing their plans, including for the first time local authority level social fund data.
This is an important change in the way that welfare services are framed and delivered. It goes to the heart of localism and the big society agenda. It empowers local communities to develop and deliver local services tailored to meet the needs of their most vulnerable members and challenges local service providers to design innovative and creative schemes.
The successful delivery of new services will be through strong partnerships between central and local government, community groups, charities and individuals.
The publication of this report is a key development in this process.
House of Lords
Egypt: Religious Minorities
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Baroness Cox
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will make representations to the Government of Egypt concerning the killing of Christians and the attacks on Christian churches in that country, and on the promotion of the safety of all citizens of religious minority faiths in Egypt.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary raised his concerns about the dangers of extremism and sectarianism in Egypt with the head of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, Field Marshal Tantawi, and with the Egyptian Prime Minister when he visited the country on 1 and 2 May. We will continue to urge the Egyptian Government to create the conditions for pluralist and non-sectarian politics and to establish policies that prevent discrimination against anyone on the basis of their religion.
Baroness Cox
I thank the Minister for his reply. Is he aware that since the January revolution there have been at least 20 documented attacks against religious minorities, including not only the Coptic Christians but the Sufi community, and that in many cases the security forces refrain from intervening effectively, giving rise to concerns that they might actually be condoning the violence? Will Her Majesty’s Government raise with the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces the importance of ensuring that the emerging constitution, legal framework and social structures are guided by the principles of equality of citizenship and equality before the law, consistent with the human rights conventions to which Egypt is a signatory?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I can tell the noble Baroness that we are indeed aware of the ugly situation that she describes. Tensions between Christians and Muslims in Egypt had initially eased during the revolution back in February, but regrettably she is right: there has been an upsurge in sectarian violence, including the worst violent clashes between the two communities in early May, when some 15 people died and over 330 were injured. This is obviously a deplorable situation. As for assisting with the emerging constitution, this country has already committed £1.2 million through the Arab Partnership scheme to support the immediate political transition process. That includes projects to build the capacity of government and civil society in developing anti-discrimination legislation, supporting constitutional reform and establishing links between the UK and the Egyptian judiciaries. In addition, the Supreme Council—the transitional Government—has announced that it will draft a new unified law on the construction of places of worship, which is to be equal for both Copts and Muslims, and a new anti-discrimination law to prevent religious discrimination. We are moving in the right direction, but clearly much more is needed.
Lord Janner of Braunstone
I thank the noble Baroness for her very important Question. Does the noble Lord agree that, sadly, this is a serious problem throughout most of the Arab world?
Lord Howell of Guildford
If the noble Lord is talking about a rising intolerance against people for their religious beliefs, he is absolutely right. This is an extremely worrying trend, which we should not only resist but work against most actively wherever it occurs.
Lord Chidgey
Will my noble friend confirm that Article 46 of the previous Egyptian constitution guaranteed freedom of belief and freedom of worship and that the penal code provided for up to five years in jail for exploiting,
“religion in order to promote extremist ideologies”?
Will the Government call on the new Egyptian Administration for these constitutional safeguards to be retained, respected and enforced in their new legislation?
Lord Howell of Guildford
That is certainly the theme of our exchanges and dialogues, and those of my right honourable friend, with the leaders of the Supreme Council. As I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, the Government are drafting a new law on the construction of places of worship, which is to be equal for both Copts and Muslims, and a new anti-discrimination law. That will, in a sense, reinforce what went before. As my noble friend appreciates, Egypt is in the process of moving out of the constitutional pattern of the past and, therefore, all the positive laws that come from the past will need to be reinforced and redrafted.
Baroness Berridge
My Lords, in light of the comments of my noble friend the Minister that there is an increase of religious intolerance, would not now be the time for the Government to adopt the recommendation from the Conservative Party’s human rights group’s report The Freedom to Believe that the Foreign Office should appoint a special envoy for international freedom, religion and belief?
Lord Howell of Guildford
That was an extremely interesting report, which my honourable and right honourable friends are certainly studying closely. I cannot make precise promises on exactly how the recommendations will be implemented or whether they will reflect the pattern of our policy evolution, but I fully recognise that my noble friend’s support for this document is right and that it is a valuable study.
The Lord Bishop of Exeter
Can the Minister tell us what advice the 8 June meeting of the FCO human rights panel offered the Foreign Secretary on how the Government might best respond to these recent attacks on religious minorities in Egypt? Will he also say how the Government have responded to any such advice?
Lord Howell of Guildford
My Lords, the answer to the right reverend Prelate’s question is positively and continuously. I know that he appreciates, because he follows these things closely, that we are dealing with a constantly changing situation. We are in constant dialogue through our posts, and indeed through Ministers and officials, with the Supreme Council in Cairo and with Governments in other countries where there are clear discrimination and attacks against religious minorities, including Christian minorities. I think that I have to tell him that the work of the panel and the continuing work of the Foreign Office are moving in the same direction, which is a positive one.
Lord Alton of Liverpool
My Lords, in declaring an interest as president of the UK Coptic Association, may I ask the Minister whether he recalls the letter that I sent him on 1 January this year, copied to the Foreign Secretary, detailing the attacks made on services at the Church of the Two Saints in Alexandria, in which some 21 people were killed and 79 injured, even predating the Arab spring? Is it not the case that the campaign of asphyxiation against the ancient churches throughout the whole of the Middle East is something that we need to give much more focus to? We should never miss the opportunity, when pointing the finger at organisations such as the Salafis for fomenting this hatred and violence, to enunciate our support for the creation of a plural society where minorities such as the Copts, who constitute an eighth of Egypt’s population, are properly respected.
Lord Howell of Guildford
I would not disagree with a word of that. I remind your Lordships that the noble Lord, Lord Alton, is second to none in keeping us up to speed with what is happening on this whole front. When he asked me whether I could recall a letter that he wrote on 1 January, I have to be quite frank and say that I recall a mass of letters that have arrived from him almost every day of the week since then. I ask him please to go on writing and reminding us all that this is a very frightening and terrible situation to which we must, both at the governmental and the individual level, give our full attention.
Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Baroness Tyler of Enfield
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress has been made in setting up the new Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission; and whether a forward work programme for the commission has been established.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)
My Lords, the changes required to establish the new commission are included in the Welfare Reform Bill and we will be able to discuss them during the Lords stages of that Bill. The commission will be established as soon as possible. Until then, the Government’s Independent Reviewer on Social Mobility, Alan Milburn, will incorporate child poverty into his remit. He will then serve as acting chair of the commission until a permanent chair is appointed.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield
I thank my noble friend the Minister for his reply. Is he aware of the OECD research published last week that shows that the UK is faring badly in international league tables in terms of pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds succeeding at school against the odds? Will he give an assurance that the commission will look critically at these sorts of issues to see whether the current measures are sufficient to improve the situation?
Lord Freud
Yes, my Lords. The OECD report was another useful wake-up call for us in an area in which we have not been doing as well as we should. That is precisely why we have combined our child poverty and social mobility strategies. We need to make sure not just that there are fiscal transfers to address poverty but also that the life chances of children are improved.
Lord Soley
Will the commission be able to look at the loss of the child trust fund, or baby bond? It was a serious mistake by the Government to cut that, because it was one of the best ways of enabling children in very poor families to find a way out of poverty in the long term and of encouraging saving. Can we have a guarantee that the commission will be able to look at a replacement for that?
Lord Freud
My Lords, the job of the commission will be to hold the Government to account for their strategy. It is the job of the Government to set the strategy and we will look at all the areas in which we need to improve performance.
Baroness Sherlock
My Lords, I am sure that noble Lords who saw the recent BBC documentary “Poor Kids” will have been moved by the brutal reality of child poverty in Britain that was portrayed. Will the Minister assure the House that the Government will commit themselves to tackling poverty at the very bottom and not just social mobility? Is he aware of the concerns expressed by charities that the Government’s approach to the commission may undermine its independence and will he meet the End Child Poverty group to discuss this?
Lord Freud
My Lords, one of the things that we are doing to expand the measures of accountability is to look precisely at severe poverty, which is a combination of very low incomes and material deprivation. That is an area on which we want to focus. One of the problems with targets is that they encourage Governments to tuck people just above an arbitrary line, which we do not want to do. I am sorry, but I have forgotten the second part of the noble Baroness’s question.
Baroness Sherlock
Will the Minister meet the End Child Poverty group to discuss its concerns that the Government may be weakening the commission’s independence?
Lord Freud
We are not weakening the commission’s independence in any way; we are strengthening it by requiring the commission to hold the Government to account. The fact that we are not insisting that the commission sets the strategy for the Government means that the Government now have that responsibility and the commission can then hold them to account. I shall of course meet the group at any stage; I am sure that it is in my diary anyway.
Lord German
My Lords, the OECD report, which places the UK 28th out of 35, paints a picture of poverty of aspiration for many of our people, particularly our young people. It suggests, however, that peer mentoring and mentoring of all sorts are a way of improving that position. Will my noble friend ensure that mentoring of all types will be part of the work of the commission that is being established?
Lord Freud
My Lords, there needs to be a massive programme to improve both poverty and social mobility. It needs to be done right the way from foundation years, through school years and the transition period, and even to adulthood. The particular programmes that we will see will come out of this general approach. I cannot give any assurances on any particular approach at this stage, although I am personally most sympathetic to the concept of mentoring.
Lord Peston
Does the Minister recall Scott Fitzgerald’s remark to Ernest Hemingway many years ago? “The rich are different from us”, Fitzgerald said. “Yes”, Hemingway replied, “they’ve got more money”. There is no mystery about child poverty, is there? What children need if they are not to be impoverished is more money, which means that a policy of cutting public expenditure benefits is not the right way of setting about helping them.
Lord Freud
My Lords, regrettably, I was not there when that remark was made. However, I absolutely insist that income transfer is not the way to solve poverty; we need a much more comprehensive approach. Recent research tells us that in-kind support is more effective than income transfers for children in poverty. We are making a sustained, long-term attempt to lift people out of not only poverty of income but poverty of aspiration and poverty of outcomes.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, will the commission be charged with looking at the impact of the legislation going through this House now, such as the Welfare Reform Bill and the Bill that affects legal aid? Will it specifically look at the life chances of the thousands of children who, we were told by the Evening Standard last night, are going to have to move out of London, their primary schools and their secure environment because of the cap on welfare benefits?
Lord Freud
My Lords, the job of the commission is to hold the Government to account on their strategy on child poverty and social mobility. That is what it will do across the wide range of this Government’s policies.
Drugs: Prescribed Drug Addiction and Withdrawal
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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The Earl of Sandwich
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they propose following the latest two reports from the National Addiction Centre and National Treatment Agency on prescribed drug addiction and withdrawal.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, my honourable friend the Minister for Public Health, Anne Milton, has discussed the findings of the reports with the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Drug Misuse and the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Involuntary Tranquiliser Addiction at a meeting chaired by my noble friend Lord Mancroft on 14 June. She wrote to my noble friend yesterday setting out the collaborative action that she will be taking in the light of that helpful discussion. She will be convening a round table meeting to discuss the key issues.
The Earl of Sandwich
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that information. Does he accept that this is an emergency for the victims of withdrawal from prescribed drugs and their families? Cannot the Government recognise the good practice that is already out there, set up withdrawal clinics and spread the word that no longer are these prescribed drugs but that they are turning into dangerous substances which can cost lives? These people cannot wait for further reports and consultation.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My Lords, how much advice is now being given to GPs over the prescribing of psychoactive substances? In the revisions of the NHS as proposed by the Government, will the pricing bureau which monitors GP prescriptions still have the same levers as it currently has in providing GPs with benchmarking of their prescribing of psychoactive substances?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I am not sure that I can answer the latter part of the noble Baroness’s question but GPs are clearly in an important position in this context. They are responsible for identifying patients who need help and for supporting them. I do not think that there is any reliable evidence that doctors are failing to comply with guidelines on the prescribing of benzodiazepines but I am aware that the Royal College of General Practitioners is updating its guidance at the moment. It is working hard to produce that very shortly.
Lord Crisp
My Lords, given the importance of making visible the number of people who are addicted in this way, when will the Government calculate the true number of people addicted to and withdrawing from legally prescribed drugs? That information could be made available from GP computer records. Does the Minster agree that both the NAC and the NTA reports confuse the number of patients taking legal prescriptions with the number of users of illegal drugs?
Earl Howe
I agree with the noble Lord that it would be very nice to have a better handle on the numbers here, but the two reports found that nationally available data do not actually provide a definitive prevalence estimate of dependence on prescription and over-the-counter medicines, much as we would wish otherwise. The reports, not unreasonably, consider the full spectrum of need in relation to the issue of addiction. The key point here is that, while different people might start taking these medicines for different reasons and may present with a different range of needs, no one at all should be excluded from the treatment and support that they require. The reports distinguish between the two groups of patients, not just those who are dependent on prescription and over-the-counter medicines but also those who are dependent on illegal drug use. That enables us to make some useful comparisons.
Baroness Jolly
Cognitive behaviour therapy is often considered as an alternative to benzodiazepines. Does the Minister believe that that low-risk alternative might be available more readily through the proposed clinical commissioning groups?
Baroness Thornton
Following on from the noble Earl’s supplementary question on how to ensure that good practice becomes standard practice, how will that sit with the dismantling of strategic health authorities, PCTs and other levers that might be used to ensure progress? Who or which organisations in the proposed restructuring of the NHS will be able to ensure that patients who have an addiction to prescription drugs receive the support that they desperately need? I agree with the noble Earl that this is an emergency; it is not the first time that we have discussed this on the Floor of the House.
Earl Howe
My Lords, the responsibility for commissioning these services in future will lie with local authorities, supported by Public Health England. The noble Baroness will be aware that it is our proposal to ring-fence the public health budget. Local authorities will be informed by the joint strategic needs assessment that they carry out and will work in partnership with local delivery organisations and with local GPs, who, as I have mentioned, will be even better informed than they are at the moment thanks to the Royal College guidance.
Lord Kakkar
My Lords, how much research into the problem of prescribed drug addiction is being supported by the National Institute for Health Research?
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
My Lords, as this is a UK-wide problem, how do you link with the devolved Administrations in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to make sure that the guidelines that we get here for England are shared with those in the other Administrations?
Earl Howe
My noble friend will know, as his question certainly made clear, that health is a devolved matter. However, we work very closely with our counterparts in the devolved Administrations on a basis of mutual information. I am sure that, for example, the Royal College of General Practitioners will wish to make certain that the devolved Administrations are every bit as well informed about their work as we are in the department in London.
Schools: Dyslexia
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Addington
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of the high levels of illiteracy among London school children, what steps they are taking to promote dyslexia awareness amongst the teaching profession.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, the Government are funding the training of specialist dyslexia teachers, the development of online study modules for all teachers and the Dyslexia-Specific Learning Difficulty Trust to raise awareness of dyslexia among teachers, parents and other professionals. We are promoting systematic synthetic phonics as the best method of teaching children to read. We intend to introduce a phonics screening check at the end of year 1 to identify pupils, including those with dyslexia, who need extra help with their phonic decoding skills.
Lord Addington
I thank my noble friend for that Answer. However, would he agree that, even with the efforts made by the last Government, we are in the situation whereby we have several schools per specialist teacher in the education system? When are we going to have a unit of training in initial teacher training, as there is in Scotland, to identify dyslexics and to allow people to be able to cope with them better in the classroom without having to call in specialists?
Lord Hill of Oareford
As my noble friend will know, in order to achieve qualified teacher status, teachers must meet the standards that require them to be able to teach children with a range of needs, including special educational needs. I agree with my noble friend on the importance of taking measures to help children with dyslexia, and the key to that, although he knows a lot more about this than I do, is early identification. It is our hope that having the phonic screening check in year 1 will enable that to happen, and then support can be put in place. We are increasing the numbers of specialist dyslexic teachers and working with ITT providers to look at ways of ensuring that primary school training teachers get the support that they need to learn how to identify and help dyslexic children.
Lord Walton of Detchant
Does the Minister accept that quite apart from dyslexia, which is difficulty in reading, there are other specific developmental learning defects such as dyspraxia, which is serious clumsiness, and dyscalculia, which is difficulty in calculation, each of which can be fully identified and characterised only by skilled psychological assessment? Having been identified, they can be effectively dealt with in schoolchildren only by highly specialised teaching. Are the Government aware of the needs of these children with defects other than dyslexia?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I accept the noble Lord’s point that there are a range of challenges across the piece. Communication difficulty is another one, and in that case we are putting in place more specialist help through therapists. Working with the Department of Health and others, we need to find ways of early identification and giving as much support as we can to children with those challenges.
Baroness Sharples
Will my noble friend say whether literacy is worse among children for whom English is a second language?
Lord Hill of Oareford
Looking at the literacy figures, we know overall that roughly one in five children leaving primary school are not achieving the basic standard expected of them, and those figures are worse for boys and for children on free school meals. With regard to children who do not have English as a first language, there are more challenges, and some schools that have large numbers of those will have to be realistic about the challenges that they face. It is also the case, however, that outstanding schools, which I am lucky enough to visit, are able to put teaching methods in place so that children who do not have English as a first language are able to learn to read fluently and well. The whole thrust of what we are doing is to try to increase the emphasis on moving to systematic synthetic phonics and early identification, and I hope that we will put in place in all schools systems to ensure that all children, including dyslexics from all backgrounds, have the chance to master the skills of reading and writing early, because without those they cannot go on to learn.
Lord Barnett
My Lords, is not the honest answer to all the questions that the Minister has had today that he does not have the money? Would he care to have a word with his noble friend Lord Sassoon, who is sitting next to him, to see whether he could use some of the reserves that he is using in other areas?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I normally have my discussions with my noble friend Lord Sassoon in a slightly more private setting. I do not accept the basic premise of the noble Lord’s question. Clearly, there is a problem across the board that we do not have as much money as we would like, but the education settlement that we got from my noble friend Lord Sassoon and his friends at the Treasury enabled us to maintain school funding at flat-cash levels, so that is not the main issue for us in this regard. It would always be nice to have more, but that is not the fundamental problem.
Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, when most initial teacher training is done in schools, as the Minister of State for Schools appears to wish, how will the Government ensure that all newly trained teachers get proper training on this issue? Do this issue and others not make the case for ensuring higher education institution input into the theoretical side of initial teacher training, especially when 10 per cent of the population are somewhere on the dyslexia spectrum?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I agree with my noble friend about the importance of input from higher education institutions. The Government are not saying that we do not believe that higher education institutions will play an extremely important part in teacher training. We are saying that, alongside that, there should be more opportunities for teachers to learn from other teachers, professionals and practitioners in the school. I very much take the noble Baroness’s point about the important role that higher education institutions play.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, can the Minister explain what requirement there will be in academies and free schools to ensure that teachers are supported in recognising and working with children with dyslexia?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, as the noble Baroness may recall—other noble Lords certainly will—during the passage of the Academies Act 2010 the requirements about special educational needs across the board were applied on an equal basis to academies. Through the funding agreement, we have maintained those. Clearly, lots of the first-wave academies set up by the previous Government were often in areas with the greatest challenges in overcoming illiteracy and helping children with dyslexia. Those academies have generally done an extremely good job in making sure that those children get the support that they need.
Information Committee
The Chairman of Committees
That Lord Maxton be appointed a member of the Select Committee in place of Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen, resigned.
Land Registration (Network Access) (Amendment) Rules 2011
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That the draft rules, orders and regulations be referred to a Grand Committee.
Education Bill
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Hill of Oareford
That it be an instruction to the Grand Committee to which the Education Bill has been committed that they consider the bill in the following order:
Clauses 1 to 4, Schedule 1, Clauses 5 to 11, Schedule 2,Clause 12, Schedule 3, Clause 13, Schedule 4, Clauses 14 to 16, Schedule 5, Clause 17, Schedule 6, Clauses 18 to 21, Schedule 7, Clauses 22 to 24, Schedule 8, Clause 25, Schedule 9, Clauses 26 to 34, Schedule 10, Clauses 35 and 36, Schedule 11, Clauses 37 to 48, Schedule 12, Clauses 49 to 53, Schedule 13, Clauses 54 to 61, Schedule 14, Clauses 62 and 63, Schedule 15, Clauses 64 and 65, Schedule 16, Clause 66, Schedule 17, Clause 67, Schedule 18, Clauses 68 to 79.
Estates of Deceased Persons (Forfeiture Rule and Law of Succession) Bill
European Union Bill
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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“(2) This section does not affect the United Kingdom’s commitments set out in—
(a) the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1986 giving effect to the Single European Act,
(b) the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 giving effect to the Maastricht Treaty on European Union,
(c) the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1998 giving effect to the Amsterdam Treaty,
(d) the European Communities (Amendment) Act 2002 giving effect to the Nice Treaty, and
(e) the European Union (Amendment) Act 2008 giving effect to the Treaty of Lisbon.
(3) This section does not affect—
(a) the European Communities (Greek Accession) Act 1979,
(b) the European Communities (Spanish and Portuguese Accession) Act 1985,
(c) the European Union (Accessions) Act 1994,
(d) the European Union (Accessions) Act 2003, and
(e) the European Union (Accessions) Act 2006.”
Lord Lea of Crondall
‘I will not detain the House for more than a few minutes. This amendment is an addition to the words now incorporated in the revised Bill at the end of revised Clause 18—those being the words in the amendment moved last week by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. My amendment, which in the words of the Companion is clarificatory, states that all the Acts of Parliament which flow from the famous or infamous EU treaties following on from Rome—Maastricht, Lisbon, et cetera—should set out in a straightforward way the list of the United Kingdom Acts which are the basis on which Parliament here in Westminster has enacted laws to give effect to EU legislation in this country.
One of the reasons for believing that the Government’s intention is to pre-empt any rethink is the feed from the office of the Foreign Secretary, the right honourable William Hague, to the Financial Times last week, which appears to throw down the gauntlet that the Lords should be put in their place and get back in their box. That is surely not the height of courtesy when we have not yet completed Third Reading of the Bill.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, who cannot be here today because he has to preside at an awards ceremony in Cambridge, but to whom I spoke yesterday, mentioned at Report that a list approach could additionally be considered. On another aspect, he indicated at col. 804 of Hansard that he could indeed visualise clarificatory amendments at Third Reading. I could not speak to the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, because he is in China.
So far as directly applicable law is concerned—where one of the confusions arises—as adumbrated by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, it would be a brave man or woman who would try to encompass that in one declaratory yet legally watertight sentence, and it is now becoming increasingly clear that it does not work. The problem is that Ministers wish to make a political point and officials are trying to make it work technically. Trying to kill two birds with one stone is rarely a good idea. There is, indeed, no simple political point that can be made about UK law which can define this in a few words, for the reasons which the exchange on 15 June between the noble and learned Lords, Lord Mackay of Clashfern and Lord Wallace of Tankerness, amply demonstrated. Assuming that I am correct about the Government’s intentions, it would be ludicrous to go into ping-pong in blinkers—ultimately, no doubt, the Lords would submit to the will of the Commons—when the resulting assertion in the Act would still be clearly erroneous, and in effect admitted to be such by Ministers.
On the Government’s contention so far as directly applicable law is concerned, we have the position as set out on page 2 of the Explanatory Memorandum that all we are looking for is a declaratory sentence. Therefore, I put this amendment forward for consideration. I do not see why it should not be accepted on all sides of the House. I will not press it to a Division but I hope that the issues I have raised will be ventilated this morning and that the amendment will in due course be accepted in the spirit in which I have put it forward. I beg to move.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, for tabling the amendment. It seeks to confirm in statute that Clause 18 does not alter the rights and obligations that the UK has assumed and given effect to in UK law since it became a member state. In particular, the amendment provides that the clause would not affect any existing commitments flowing from subsequent treaty changes and accession treaties. That is the purpose of the noble Lord’s amendment.
As I say, I am grateful to him because it allows me the opportunity, once again, to make crystal clear that this Government strongly believe that it is absolutely essential that we continue to respect the rights and obligations that we have as a member state of the European Union under the treaties to which we have committed ourselves. This is because we recognise the benefits of EU membership. This Bill does not do anything to alter our current active engagement within the existing powers and competences of the EU. I do not want to go into too much repetition of our extensive and very valuable discussions in Committee. As I said then, the coalition Government’s Programme for Government spelt out that the United Kingdom will be,
“a positive participant in the European Union”.
I believe that this Government have, since last May, amply demonstrated an active and activist approach to EU matters. This has been exemplified by this country’s leadership in the European Union’s response, and indeed the global response, to recent events in north Africa and the Middle East, and the continuing turbulence there.
The pragmatic approach that this Government have adopted in their wider EU policy brings home the pragmatism that has been shown at times in your Lordships’ House during the consideration of this legislation. We have come a long way since the Bill came from another place. We have undertaken detailed and considered scrutiny of the Bill and its provisions, as we should and as is our proper role here.
I want to pause briefly during these remarks to thank warmly colleagues on all sides of your Lordships’ House who have taken part in these debates. Our differences have been there, of course, but those aside, your Lordships’ House has engaged in its proper role of detailed scrutiny of what is undeniably a very complex Bill. Members have done so with diligence, and for that I am grateful.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, have we moved on to debate the Question that this Bill do now pass, because I do not think that we have yet disposed of the amendment?
Lord Howell of Guildford
No, we have not. We are discussing the amendment. I hope that that is clear to the noble Lord.
The Bill represents a major step forward in the engagement of Parliament over the future direction of the EU. I know that some noble Lords have argued that giving the British people a greater say over decisions could come at the expense of Parliament. However, the more that one examines that proposition, the more I believe that not to be the case. On the contrary, we are seeking to build an enduring framework on which both Parliament and the people of the country will be given a greater say over the key decisions of the Executive in the European Union. That must be healthy. We are seeking to reflect—
Baroness Quin
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, because it allows me to make an intervention that otherwise I would have tried to make in the form of a speech. He has claimed that there is general acceptance of the provisions for a referendum lock on key constitutional issues. Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, with whom I normally agree 100 per cent on European issues, said that the Government had persuaded us all of this. However, I do not agree with the use of referendums. I tend to share the view of the noble Lords, Lord Jopling, Lord Deben and Lord Brittan, and others that we need to be very careful if we are going towards this plebiscitary form of democracy, rather than a representative one. I should, therefore, at least like to place on record my own concern about referendum locks in general.
Lord Howell of Guildford
That is a very clear view from the noble Baroness, who, as a former Minister for Europe, knows about these things. However, I have to say that, in the age in which we live, that is a heroic position. We are now living in the information age of instant communication. Referenda are being used in every country, not at the expense of parliamentary debate and sensible diligence by elected representatives but as a further extension of the consolidation of the people’s trust in the processes of government. They are being used everywhere.
I heard the very eloquent views of the noble Lord, Lord Deben, who is not in his place, that he is against all—
Baroness Williams of Crosby
I am grateful to my noble friend. I simply want to make it clear that my support for referenda is limited to major amendments to treaties. It does not apply, as the Minister knows very well, to the list of issues set out in the schedule to the Bill.
Lord Howell of Guildford
That is a perfectly fair and sensible intervention by my noble friend. We would, of course, expect nothing else. It reinforces my point that to be either at the one pole of being against all referenda and plebiscites or at the other of saying let us have a referendum every five minutes is absurd. In between lies the possibility, in a modern parliamentary democracy, of consultation with the people through referenda on major issues where sovereignty is transferred, where competencies are transferred or where powers are surrendered by this Parliament through treaty to a higher Parliament.
My noble friend has intervened to say that only in very limited circumstances does she agree. The noble Baroness, Lady Quin, has said that she does not agree at all. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, says that he does not agree. But somewhere in between is the sensible, practical way forward. We are seeking to reflect in the Bill the unavoidable reality that, in the information age, parliamentary-based democracy has widened, is widening and is bound to widen to embrace consultation on key issues. We can argue and have argued for many weeks on how far popular consultation should be involved, but the basic principle is the reality with which Governments are now developing their methods of government and holding authority almost throughout the whole democratic world.
Lord Clinton-Davis
The noble Lord has talked about the positive contribution that this Government have made as far as the EU is concerned. However, is that not negated by the unwise alliance that the Government have formed with rather dubious characters, and the withdrawal from a more central grouping?
Lord Howell of Guildford
With great respect for the noble Lord, whose experience in European affairs is enormous, that is widening the debate vastly from discussing the amendment before us at Third Reading. The noble Lord is raising all sorts of political issues, on which I am very happy to engage, but this would not be the appropriate process and your Lordships would rightly criticise me for going into those issues. I am pleased that we have seen an acceptance of the principle that there should be a referendum on future treaty changes which transfer power and competence from the UK to the EU. That is a step forward, although I repeat that I fully respect my noble friend’s intervention to the effect that she does not accept that for a vast range of activities.
Lord Davies of Stamford
The noble Lord has been talking at great length about referenda and justifying the use of referenda in the 56 cases listed in this Bill. What is the rationale for going for referenda in all these 56 cases, some on very esoteric grounds, and not having a referendum on the very substantial and dramatic reform of our legislature as proposed by the Government?
Lord Howell of Guildford
We have debated this at length. I have enjoyed some of the noble Lord’s interventions—not all of them—and this one is based on a total fallacy and misunderstanding of the Bill which I have tried to disabuse him of. Clearly I have not succeeded. There is no question of having referenda on 56 different items. As we have debated at enormous length, the items included in Schedule 1 and Clause 6 all relate to a handful of very big, so-called red line issues which the people of this country do not want to be dealt with other than through popular consultation. That is the reality. The 56 story is a wonderful myth. It should be utterly dismissed and I hope that we do not hear anything more about it.
Perhaps I may return to the amendment. Clause 18 would not alter the rights and obligations of the UK by virtue of our membership with the European Union.
Lord Dykes
I apologise for intervening and shall be very brief. First, I genuinely thank my noble friends Lord Howell and Lord Wallace for being helpful, whenever they could be, in responding to many of the points made at previous stages. However, accepting that a transfer of powers of sovereignty can be used as a technical description of our membership of the European Union, is it not better psychologically for the public to have an expression which represents the reality that, by apparently agreeing to things in the European Council, we increase not only our own national sovereignty but the collective sovereignty of the whole Union? That also applies to our membership of NATO, the UN and other international bodies.
Lord Howell of Guildford
First, I thank my noble friend for those words of thanks—I was going to say “condolence”—for the efforts that we are putting into explaining the Bill. He makes an extremely valuable point: where Britain’s national interests are to be promoted by further involvement under treaties or otherwise in international institutions, that is an important matter on which the Government should certainly seek support through popular consent. The argument that we cannot make progress in any of these areas of international and multinational organisations because the Government somehow fear that the people will not agree is very weak and defeatist. On the contrary, if we are to pursue the national interest in a robust way, I think that the present Government and future Governments will have no fears at all about persuading the people to give popular support and consent to the steps forward.
Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne
I thank my noble friend for giving way. Does he agree that over the past 35 years or so member state Parliaments in other member states have been more heavily involved than the United Kingdom, and the Bill offers a way for the member state Parliament in Westminster to get far more closely attuned—providing that we can work more closely with the British people—to the will of the people on further transfers of sovereignty? Does he not also agree that this has been a profoundly important debate because it has widened the discussion from the very narrow perspectives of Brussels to the Government and back again? It has already brought Parliament in far more fully and, from that, we will be able to have occasional referenda, which will bring the British public much more into the picture.
Lord Howell of Guildford
I totally agree with my noble friend. I believe that the Bill is part of a jigsaw of processes to reinforce the relationship between the general public and the entire European Union project in a thoroughly positive way. I hope that I have not sounded too complaining during the passage of the Bill but I hoped for massive support, which I do not think was always forthcoming from your Lordships’ offices, for those who want to see the European Union project greatly reinforced. Let us face it—at the moment, it is confronting some very serious challenges. This is the part of the way forward, although not the only way forward. My noble friend greatly reinforces that central point.
I return to the noble Lord, Lord Lea, who is owed a detailed comment on his excellent amendment. I emphasise once again that Clause 18 does not in any way seek to vary the rights and obligations under EU law to which the UK has given effect in its domestic legal order, principally through the Acts referred to in the amendment. It merely confirms that, for directly effective and directly applicable EU law to have effect in the UK legal order, it must be underpinned by UK statute—an issue that of course we discussed at great length on Report. The House of Lords Constitution Committee, in its very valuable report that has been referred to many times, recognised that the intent of the clauses was to do no more than reflect existing law. Clause 18 does not in any way repeal or amend any existing legislation that the UK has adopted to give effect in our law to commitments assumed under past treaty changes. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Lea, will accept that that is the reality and the basic underpinning ground fact that lies beneath the reasoning for Clause 18 being in the Bill.
Lord Liddle
I will not make any comments on the amendment of my noble friend Lord Lea, which the Minister dealt with very clearly. We on this side of the House greatly appreciate the courtesy with which the Minister has dealt with the many points that we raised in the long debate on the Bill—as has the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire. However, what I failed to hear in the Minister's summing-up was an acknowledgement that the Bill that leaves this House is very different from the Bill that arrived, and that on fundamental points the House has amended it in a way that we hope the other place will take due notice of. We have reduced the compulsory requirement for referenda on 56 issues—I know that this figure is disputed by the Government—to three; we have clarified the sovereignty clause in a way that satisfies former Lord Chancellors; we have introduced a 40 per cent turnout threshold for a referendum to be binding; and we have passed a sunset clause that will require a future Parliament by positive resolution to revive the Bill. These are very significant changes and I hope that on the Government’s side there is an acknowledgement that they must think seriously about the views that were expressed on all sides of the House in a very broad consensus that the Bill is badly flawed.
Lord Williamson of Horton
I did not intervene earlier because I got the impression that this was not only Third Reading but probably fourth, fifth and sixth reading, given the many points that were made that did not appear to relate in any way to Clause 18. I shall be extremely brief in saying that it is correct that the Bill that now goes to the House of Commons is different because we have fully considered it and made changes, and we look forward to a serious and positive response from the other House.
I will make only one further point. If the Bill becomes an Act, I share the view of the Government on one important point; I hope that it will seriously improve the possibility of a better connection between the people and the European Union. That is the primary intention of the Bill and, however much it has changed, it is still very important that we should seek to achieve that.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
My Lords, I, too, add my warm thanks to the Ministers for the extremely gracious and thoughtful way in which they have responded to issues in this House. In particular, I thank the Minister for his willingness to spend some time meeting people personally to discuss their particular problems when he is an extremely busy man with a heavy ministerial list, as indeed is his colleague the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire. I do not want to detain the House either, beyond thanking them very much and saying one other word following the noble Lord, Lord Williamson.
There are issues in the amendments that this House has passed which would improve the Bill very considerably. I hope that the Ministers will think quite carefully before trying to oppose them completely, because they would bring about a degree of consensus across the House that would be extremely valuable for our future relations with Europe, about which the Minister has already spoken eloquently. We welcome what he has said about that. I hope that the Government will take away from this at least a willingness to consider whether it might not improve the Bill to accept some of these amendments.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, we are on the edge, between being in order or out of order. Perhaps I might repeat my noble friend’s request that the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, might now care to withdraw his amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, rightly pointed out that we are edging away from Third Reading and into Bill do now pass. I therefore suggest that we allow my noble friend to move the Motion that the Bill do now pass.
Lord Lea of Crondall
I thank the Minister for his reply. I will say for the record that I am taking it from what he has said that we will not have a blinkered or blindfolded ping-pong on the basis of asserting the primacy of the House of Commons. I hope not to be disabused of this but, reflecting on what the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, has just said, I hope that these things will be considered very carefully. We are a mature democracy and there is a lot of mature thinking in this House. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, I hope that your Lordships noticed that my noble friends and I withdrew a number of amendments in Committee and forbore to table any on Report or, again, at Third Reading. We did this to reduce by several hours the inordinate time it was taking for this Bill to pass through your Lordships' House, and so, with the leave of the House, I shall speak very briefly now on the Motion that this Bill do now pass.
The first thing I want to do, and it is not much fun, is to recall what I said at the start of my Second Reading speech on 22 March and now to regret that noble Lords in receipt of a forfeitable EU pension, with one honourable exception in the shape of the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, did not declare that interest during our debates. As I said at Second Reading, it is not helpful to members of the public or those who read our debates if they are not told of noble Lords’ past experience of the subject under debate or where those noble Lords are coming from. That omission skews the whole tone and understanding of our debates, quite apart from anything else.
Although I and those noble Lords who feel as I do on this subject have received no support on this matter from your Lordships' nomenklatura, in the shape of our Committee for Privileges, I am grateful for the public support which we have now received in the national press: from this country’s leading and most amusing diarist, Mr Quentin Letts, on 26 March in the Daily Mail and from the political editor of the Mail on Sunday, Mr Simon Walters, on 19 June. For those who wish to go into the detail of this unfortunate situation, I again recommend my debate in your Lordships' House on 19 July 2007.
As we now look back over our debates and divisions on this Bill, the situation is even worse than a mere failure to declare such an obvious financial interest in debate. Three amendments were carried against this Bill—
Lord Dykes
In view of the importance of these matters, would the noble Lord also undertake to the House to work very hard indeed, since he is getting such support from the many owners of these newspapers, particularly the tabloids, who support his campaign against Europe, to ensure that they pay UK direct taxes as quickly as possible?
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
I am not sure that that intervention is entirely on target. I thought the noble Lord was going to berate us about the Murdoch press, and I do not think that the two newspapers to which I referred belong in the Murdoch stable. I am quite happy to collaborate with the noble Lord on that if he will collaborate with me on getting the BBC to fulfil its duty to explain to the British people how the European Union works.
I think I got as far as saying that three amendments were carried against this Bill which together emasculate it entirely and deny the British people any chance of a meaningful referendum on our relationship with the failing project of European integration, which they do not like.
The point I now want to make about those amendments is that they were largely proposed by noble Lords in receipt of a forfeitable EU pension, most of them undeclared, and they were all carried by the votes of noble Lords who did not declare their interest. I can but suggest that the Privileges Committee revisits this subject before the Bill returns from the Commons and does the obvious thing.
As the Bill now leaves us, there is one other regret that I would like to record. It is that the Government did not respond to a question about the background to this Bill which I put to them twice. The Government’s excuse, no doubt in their mind when they designed the Bill, may be that the Bill should not have allowed us to discuss the EU’s real defects: its common agricultural and fisheries policies, its wasteful and fraudulent use of vast sums of taxpayers’ money and its entirely undemocratic and secret law-making process which now controls so much of our lives. The question I put was this: given that even our political class is beginning to see that the euro was and is designed for disaster—
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I remind the noble Lord that the Companion states that:
“The third reading of a Bill is normally confined to the formal motion”,
and that interventions should be only in opposition to the Bill itself.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
I think that the noble Lord will find that I have cleared this intervention with the usual channels, and I am sorry if he was not part of it.
I think I was saying that even the political class now realises that the euro has become the disaster—
Lord Richard
Is the noble Lord seriously suggesting that the usual channels have agreed that he should say what he has been saying about people in this House who are in receipt of pensions from Europe? Is he seriously suggesting that that has been agreed by the usual channels? If not, will he withdraw it?
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
If any noble Lord wishes to move that I be no longer heard, I am quite happy to debate that, but in the mean time, I believe I did clear this. It may be that they did not have a meeting. I think I am entirely in order to express regrets about this Bill as it passes towards the House of Commons and to say why.
Lord Richard
The noble Lord says that he believes he cleared it. Is he not sure that he cleared it? If he is not sure, does he not think that he should not have made those statements?
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, I started my intervention with the leave of the House. If the noble Lord wishes to remove the leave of the House, he is free to do so, and we can debate whether or not I should be heard. I appreciate that noble and Europhile Lords do not wish to hear what I am saying, but unless it is moved against me, I intend to continue saying what I am saying.
So, for the third time, I was hoping that the political class has come to realise what a disaster the euro is. Many of us predicted it. It is a disaster which is being visited on the hapless people of Europe, now particularly Greece, but soon on other countries too.
Lord Brougham and Vaux
The noble Lord is stretching the rules of the House rather wide. If he carries on, I shall move the Motion that the noble Lord be no longer heard.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
If the noble Lord will hold with me for another few seconds, I think that what I am saying is worth having on the record.
I was asking the Government why they cannot see that democracy is the only reliable guarantor of peace and long-term prosperity, and that the sooner we get back to a Europe of democratic nations, freely trading and collaborating together with all their powers returned to their national Parliaments, the better it will be for all the peoples of Europe and, indeed, of the rest of the world beyond. That is entirely in context with the passage of this Bill as it goes to the House of Commons, and as this is the third time I have asked the noble Lord, Lord Howell, the question, I would be grateful for his reply.
Lord Howell of Guildford
My Lords, I am very strongly advised that the custom of this House is that “the Bill do now pass” is intended to be a formal stage. That is what the Companion clearly says, so while I am always tempted perhaps outside this Chamber to engage with the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, who has just put his grand case against not only the entire Bill but the entire policy and this country’s commitment to be a positive force in Europe, as it has been for the past 1,000 years in many ways, and while I would love to explain to him that his view is defeatist and belongs to the past century and not the present one, I will resist doing so and instead repeat my grateful thanks for the kind compliments that have been paid by my noble friend and others.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Will the noble Lord, Lord Howell, join those of us who think that the contribution that has been made by those on all sides of the House, except the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, has been worth while? Will he also join me in resisting the animadversions that have been made about former commissioners, which are utterly untrue?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I am not going to enter into wider or controversial comments, because this is the stage of the Bill at which those would be inappropriate.
Finally, it is true, as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, has observed, that your Lordships made some amendments to the Bill that we were unable to support from this side of the House. I have no doubt that the other place will consider those new provisions carefully, but overall the thrust, aims and intentions of this Bill are clear, despite some of the amendments that will obviously water it down. Our differences aside, your Lordships' House has engaged in its proper role of detailed scrutiny of this complex legislation and looked at this Bill with diligence. For that, I am grateful, and I repeat my proposal in the Motion that the Bill do now pass.
Localism Bill
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Beecham
Lord Beecham
My Lords, this group of amendments concerns governance issues, the part of the Bill to which we now move. The amendments deal with some of the regulations which the Bill empowers the Secretary of State to make. I have a vision of a group of civil servants in the subterranean depths of Eland House employed full time in drafting regulations on all manner of things, many of which we will encounter as the Bill progresses through Committee. In the interests of health and safety, if nothing else, of those who are so engaged and of local government, I suggest that the Government look again at the degree to which they are seeking to regulate.
The amendments relate to Schedule 2, page 189, and seek to limit the degree to which regulation will take place other than at the request of local authorities. Amendment 34 suggests that regulations should be made only if asked for by authorities. Amendment 35 would limit significantly the arrangements that the Government seek to make under these proposals and would ensure that any such arrangements are consistent with the principles of localism and the representative democracy which featured so largely in the initial debate on the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. I beg to move.
Lord True
My Lords, it might be helpful if I speak to my Amendment 37, which is in this group and relates to governance arrangements. I apologise for its rather dense language but it imitates the drafting style of the Bill and I was trying to be as accommodating as possible to the Government. The real issue here is about the relations between lower tier and higher tier authorities, and how we achieve localism where things are done to local people by higher tier authorities.
I have a very live example: before leaving for the House this morning, I received an extremely angry e-mail from a person in my ward asking, “Why on earth are you wasting my money moving bus stops on our high street?”. The answer is that I am not doing that. I have had meetings with TfL asking it not to move bus stops. But it is all being done by a higher tier authority within a lower tier authority without any open consultation with the people affected.
There are many other examples of this kind of thing, and I am sure it does not only go on between London boroughs and regional government—it probably goes on between lower tier authorities and county councils and, in some cases, parish councils. Another example would be the one I cited at Second Reading where, after consultation with local people, we proposed revised parking standards in a neighbourhood. Without holding any public consultation, we received a letter from a higher authority saying that the arrangements were not satisfactory and did not accord with its standards, and we were asked to change them.
I do not wish to unpick the constitutional arrangements between lower and higher tier authorities in this country, but I do not think that the Bill is very localist when it comes to London boroughs. Indeed, it strikingly fails to be localist in that respect. What I am really asking for in the amendment, although I do not expect my noble friend to agree to it at first bite nor do I necessarily want to add to the huge bible of regulation that is emerging from this Bill, is recognition of the important principle here. If we believe in localism, at the very least it should be open to the lower tier authority to be able to say to the higher tier authority, “If you are considering planning changes which specifically affect an area”, such as whether to have high-rise buildings in the centre of Twickenham, which happens to be a live issue in my authority, “meetings should be held by the higher tier authority to gauge the opinion of local people”. It might even be that we could ask officers to come and hold public meetings, or indeed have the right to require that that should happen.
At the moment there is no formal ability for a lower tier authority to act on behalf of its local residents to do what we would regard as absolutely normal in terms of explaining to residents what is going on. It is absolutely inconceivable, if we were planning to change the alignment of a high street in a village or small town centre, that that would be done without prior and detailed public consultation with local people. The purpose of the amendment is to give a lower tier authority such as my own, a London borough, but also those outside London, the ability to propose or suggest arrangements to the higher tier authority to ensure that it conducts itself in a proper, localist fashion in respect of matters that affect local people. I urge my noble friend to reflect on the issue being raised here.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I have one amendment in the group and I shall speak to the others. I start by saying that we support the amendments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. They form part of a recurring theme in our discussions on this Bill, which is that while the Government’s proposal is that localism should be more prevalent and that there should be more localism in authorities and among local people, it is being done within a highly prescribed framework and is subject to a large number of orders and regulations from the centre. In other words, it is top-down localism, not genuine localism. There is absolutely no reason at all why this amount of central control and prescription of local authorities should take place. It was not the case when I first became a councillor 40 years ago. We had nothing like this amount of central control when the new authorities were set up in 1973 and elected in 1974. It has crept in over the years from both Conservative and Labour Governments, and we are now getting more of it from the coalition.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, I have discussed with the Local Government Association and London Councils the central point which my noble friend Lord Greaves has referred to. This is a huge Bill and, as my noble friend has said, it is full of all sorts of prescriptive powers which tell local authorities what to do and how to behave.
I do not think that those who drew up most of the provisions of the Bill have taken on board what is meant by the general power of competence. We discussed this at the previous sitting of the Committee and a number of points were made. Local government bodies find themselves almost powerless to decide what should be excluded from the Bill or be written in far simpler terms to acknowledge that, with the general power of competence, they are perfectly capable of making up their minds as to how they wish to run their affairs.
I am not going to dwell on this subject—I certainly do not wish to take up a great deal of time—but I say to my noble friend that I find it disappointing that the opportunity has not been taken to accompany the general power of competence with a radical relook at how far central government has to prescribe so many detailed rules—either through taking powers by regulations or by spelling them out in the Bill—telling local authorities how to behave. In my discussions with, particularly, London Councils, it has simply said that it would be an entirely different kind of Bill if that were to happen. I have the greatest sympathy with its view that it is impossible to think how one might amend the Bill in order to achieve the inevitable consequence of giving local authorities a general power of competence. It is what the authorities have been clamouring for for a long time—and here it is. But what are the consequences? Whitehall is still going to tell them what to do and how to behave in very great detail. With all the additional regulations to which the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and my noble friend Lord Greaves have referred, it will get ever more complex in giving directions.
It is very disappointing that we still have this mass of detailed, prescriptive legislation for local authorities which has entirely failed to take account of what is intended to be a genuine new start for them with a general power of competence. I do not think there is anything we can do about it in Parliament. We could say, “Take this Bill away, rewrite it and recognise the general power of competence”, but that option is not open to this House when the Bill has already been through another place.
I hope the Government will recognise that there is a deep sense of dismay. The more one looks at the details in the Bill, the more one has to ask oneself the question: where is the general power of competence? What was the Bill supposed to achieve if it was not to achieve the aim of letting local authorities use their position, their power and their accountability to their own electorates to make their own decisions on a great many matters?
I recognise that there may be cases—my noble friend Lord True made this point—where there is a need to protect one tier against another and where there needs to be some kind of protection for council tax payers and so on. However, as I plough through the Bill, look at the amendments and have meetings with a number of representative bodies, I am dismayed by the thought that we have to deal with a local government Bill—although it is called the Localism Bill—which bears such a close resemblance to everything that Parliament has had to consider before.
I shall not repeat this on every occasion—it would be a waste of the Committee’s time—but I feel quite strongly that a great opportunity has been missed.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I associate myself strongly with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. I know from conversations that Ministers are gaining some private amusement from the number of times that local authorities are asking them when guidance will be issued. They are saying that local authorities cannot get hold of the idea of localism—that they will be allowed to do what they want to do and guidance will not be issued. The reason for this is that local government has for years and years become increasingly used to detailed guidance and regulations being issued. It has come to expect it and at times to require it. It will take a little time to adjust to a change of culture—if, indeed, there is one.
Lord Howard of Rising
My Lords, I support the amendment of my noble friend Lord True. In doing so, I declare an interest as a district councillor.
I should like to give the Government and the Minister an example. Norfolk County Council, which is the senior authority of my own district authority, tried to impose an incinerator in Norwich but found that it was unable to do so because of the unpopularity that this aroused and the fact that no one would sell it the land. Consequently it secretly bought a plot at Kings Lynn and said that it was going to stick an incinerator in there. My district council held a referendum which overwhelmingly rejected this suggestion. The local press has been continually complaining about it; there are meetings; there is massive objection to it. Despite this overwhelming unpopularity, Norfolk County Council is claiming to the Secretary of State that the proposition has universal local support.
I urge the Minister to consider the amendment of my noble friend Lord True because, plainly, there is often unhappiness—the example which I have given is not unique—about bullying by upper-tier authorities of lower-tier ones.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have taken part in this quite long debate on the amendment, and I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, on introducing it succinctly.
The Bill seeks to remove the current prescriptive and overly burdensome rules and procedures for local authority governance arrangements. I am not sure that I am quite on line with my noble friends behind me because, for instance, the Bill allows councils greater freedom to determine their governance arrangements. We have been asked to allow a committee system ever since the previous legislation, when it was arbitrarily removed by the previous Government. We accept that local authorities, as practitioners, are experts in the field of governance, and that most proposals for additional governance models will come from them.
Amendment 34, on the Secretary of State’s power in Schedule 2 to make regulations on this issue, fails to understand that ideas for new governance models may also come from other sources—from government, local government representatives or other bodies. There seems to be some sort of idea that everything has been forced on local authorities. We are not forcing them to do anything; they do not have to adopt the arrangements set out in these regulations for a committee system and can carry on as they are. These regulations—with the prospect of other, newer forms of governance; I cannot think what they are at the moment but there might be some—give them the opportunity to carry them out if they wish.
The restated conditions in Amendment 35 would do little if anything more than recast the existing provisions in the language of today, rather than the language of a decade ago. They are arguably less demanding, since the explicit requirement that the new arrangements must be an improvement on what is already there has been removed. However, it is hard to imagine prescribing a new arrangement unless it achieved something more than what was currently on offer. In short, I do not believe that these amendments would make a substantive difference in how the powers in this section might be operated.
Amendment 36 significantly weakens the conditions, apparently allowing new arrangements that did not provide for decision-taking in an efficient, transparent and accountable way. I am sure that no one would wish to see this. Certainly we do not.
Amendment 37, as the noble Lord, Lord True, said, is all about allowing a district council, for example, to make proposals for governance arrangements that would improve the accountability of the county council to the people of that district. I think that he also mentioned London boroughs as part of that. Effective collaboration between tiers, shared services and shared chief executives, which are coming about more and more, might all be effective ways of improving local governance. I am not certain that we need more central regulation to achieve this. I noted exactly what my noble friend Lord Howard said, that in his area that did not seem to operate. On the other hand, it is a mechanism that I would strongly recommend.
Amendment 37A would disempower local authority leaders by allowing authorities to resolve that the full council, rather than the leader, should appoint the members of the executive cabinet. I remember dealing with the previous local government legislation, where this was accepted as rather a good move, so I am not certain why we now want to get rid of it again.
Lord Greaves
I, too, remember the previous legislation, which brought in this new system. I do not know whether it was accepted as a good move, or by whom, but it was certainly not accepted as a good move by the Liberal Democrat Benches in this House, because we challenged it at the time. The point is that if it is such a good move, surely most authorities will continue to do it that way. But if we are talking about localism, why should they not have the choice?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, we believe that the leader and cabinet model is a good one. We also believe that the leader should be able to select those whom he wishes to have with him. It is a very close relationship, and it is very important that it works well. We think it right for a leader to be able to appoint his own executive team.
Amendment 38 would prevent the maximum size of an executive being set at a figure lower than 10 members. I accept that current experience with 10 members is about right, but I would not accept that future circumstances will be such that, while it might be right to increase the maximum limit of the size of an executive, it might not be right to have a lower limit. I think that that is what the noble Lord’s amendment suggests. Experience demonstrates that 10 is about the right number, and that a lower number may be too little and a higher number too much. Most of these cabinet systems are working quite well as they are. One might also point out that the more cabinet members you have, the more you have to pay. I hope that that resolves some of the questions.
Lord Beecham
I thank the Minister for her reply and thank the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for the support that he gave to some of the amendments. In relation to Amendment 37A, in practice there would be little advantage in going along that route. It would be a foolish leader who endeavoured to appoint an executive without the support of his colleagues. He would not last long in leadership, I suspect. In reality, I do not think that this particular provision is required.
On Amendment 38, however, the Minister rather skates over the implications of the Bill as it presently stands. I cannot see any reason why the determination of the size of the executive should not be entirely at the discretion of the local authority. At the very least, it would be wrong to leave the Secretary of State with power arbitrarily to reduce the size of the executive to, potentially, one or two members. Generally speaking, 10 is about the right figure; in the case of my own authority and that of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, the new administration has actually reduced the number of cabinet members, to use the phrase adopted, from 10 to six. That is legitimate and a matter of decision for the authority. In my submission, it would not be legitimate for the Secretary of State to prescribe that. Given the increasing spread of responsibilities, the partnership arrangements that now exist and the structures that now surround local government, it may well be creating an onerous burden on members of executives if their numbers were to be confined. I hope that the Government look again at this really rather purposeless provision.
The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, raised the question of principle, which it may be as well that we dispose of today. He asks very legitimately where the power of general competence is in all this. I had the pleasure of working with, or perhaps beneath, the noble Lord when he was Secretary of State for the Environment and chaired the Inner City Partnership committee in Newcastle. He was always clearly committed to local government. The problem is not so much around the concept of general competence as that the Bill, or much of it, rests on an assumption—certainly on the part of civil servants, and perhaps of Ministers of all Administrations—of general incompetence in local government and those who serve in it. I fear that that suspicion lies behind many of the manifold provisions in the Bill which purport to increase the degree of regulation that the Secretary of State can impose, if he sees fit. I hope that on reflection, as we go through the Bill, the Minister and her noble friends will think again about the degree to which they are taking upon themselves a burden that is effectively unnecessary. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“(6A) A lower tier authority may propose to the Secretary of State that the Secretary of State make regulations prescribing arrangements specified in the proposal if the authority considers that, in addition to the conditions in subsection (5), the arrangements would lead to the increased local accountability of the higher tier authority to residents of the lower tier authority’s area and improve the ability of local residents to influence or participate in decisions affecting their locality.
(6B) No proposal under subsection (6A) may involve the duplication or repeating of meetings, but may propose that the higher tier authority, or a body established by that authority, or its responsible officers should meet or publish details of its meetings relating to matters specifically affecting people within the lower authority’s area within the lower tier authority’s area.”
Lord True
I would like to move the amendment. My point is twofold. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, others and I were grateful for the support that was given in the earlier discussion. I think that it underlined the point that decisions are not localist in the way that, in my submission, they should be. We need not have regulations of the kind that I am suggesting might be considered if the lower-tier authority were simply prepared to decide where a bus stop should be on its high street. If the Government wish in their reflections on the Bill to come forward with proposals to localise those decisions then, in the spirit of what my noble friend Lord Jenkin said, I would welcome that. Since I do not anticipate that, though, I am asking my noble friend to consider, before we get to Report, the relationship between the lower-tier and higher-tier authorities.
The problem with the Bill as it is now framed, as I read it, is that a local authority may make propositions to the Secretary of State about regulations prescribing arrangements concerning its own procedures but not regarding arrangements relating to another authority’s procedures that affect activity in its own area. I may be wrong in reading the Bill in that way; if so, at this or a later stage my noble friend may be able to enlighten me. As I read it, though, this great Localism Bill, the principle of which we all support, does not give lower-tier authorities the opportunity to suggest that their own people be addressed in a more localist manner by higher authorities.
I regret if I have not been succinct in making this point, but I urge my noble friend and those advising her to consider it seriously. Our daily experience—my noble friends Lord Greaves and Lord Howard of Rising have given examples—show that these matters affect people in their daily lives. As our consideration of the Bill continues, I urge my noble friend to think further and to come back on this matter at a later stage.
Baroness Byford
My Lords, I think that the slight difficulty arose because the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, got up to speak before I had a chance to get in. I apologise for not speaking before he wound up on his amendment.
I come with no practical hands-on experience in local government but I want to reinforce the points that my noble friend is trying to make. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, said that there was widespread frustration, as indeed there is, from parish level up to district level and beyond. I hope that the Bill will in some way resolve some of the difficulties that my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding spoke about. We have a great opportunity to try to simplify things and ensure that local communities can act in a manner that is in their own best interests. If we are promoting much more involvement of local communities through the big society, it seems a shame if the Bill is not going to ease some of the situations that different tiers currently find themselves in. I hope that my noble friend will have a chance to reflect on this. If the wording is not right—often it is not exactly what the Government of the day wish—it is the thrust of the amendment that is important. It is trying to ensure that local authorities and local tiers take on that responsibility and do so in the proper, accepted manner. It is also trying to ensure that, where there are disagreements, there should be discussions between the tiers, whichever tiers they happen to be. I commend my noble friend’s amendment.
Lord Wade of Chorlton
My Lords, listening to this discussion, I am prompted to remind the House that in 1994 the then Conservative Government established an ad hoc Select Committee of the House of Lords to reveal the relationship between central and local government. I was privileged to be a member of that committee. We took a great deal of evidence at the time from local authorities, government officials and Ministers to review whether the top-down control of local government was in everyone’s interests. The recommendations that we came up with looked closely at the establishment of the cabinet system and the establishment of mayors, and we looked at how local government should not necessarily be thought of, as it was then by central government, to be all the same.
We recommended in our report—it is a long time since I have looked at it—that we should see local government evolving as it was decided by the local community rather than by the centre. I remember that we were struck, when we took evidence from the principal secretaries of the departments, by the fact that they were anxious to see uniformity within local government and not to allow local people to establish different ways of governing as it suited them—indeed, they were anxious to prevent that. That applied to planning, development and local government’s relationship with all sorts of services.
When I first saw the detail of the Localism Bill, I thought that it was another step forward in accepting the recommendations that we had made and that it gave an opportunity to local government to be different and respond to what local people needed rather than to what central government needed. However, I am rather concerned, from the way that this argument is going, that the views expressed in the Bill are not going to provide the freedom that we recommended way back in 1994. Many of those recommendations have now been accepted by central government, but I feel that this might be a step backwards rather than forwards.
Baroness Hanham
I think that I replied earlier because I had not realised that other people were going to take part in this. I hear what is being said by my noble friends Lord True, Lord Howard, Lord Jenkin and now Lord Wade. When we look at the measures in the Bill, I think that most of them will turn out to be liberating for local government. It gives them a general power of competence and greater flexibility in what they can do. On some of the areas that we are legislating about now, we think that it is appropriate that there should be some regulations about how things should be done.
I worry a bit about my noble friend Lord True’s amendment. It asks the Secretary of State to prescribe a route along which the noble Lord and others have been telling us that we should not be going on any other matter, so it does not quite follow. I think that we have discussed across the Chamber before that there are not always good relations between the three tiers of government, particularly if you start with a parish council, but I am not sure that that poor relationship is something that this Government should try to prescribe a route through.
There are many changes taking place in the way in which local government is run. Many new arrangements are having to be made, as I said earlier, about management, about sharing chief executives across councils and districts and about sharing services, all of which ought to make it much easier for local government to avoid the elephant traps that my noble friend is talking about. In the light of the concern that there is, I will reflect on this issue before the next stage. I do not think that I would hold my breath that we will be able to accept my noble friend’s amendments, but I certainly hear the sentiments that have been expressed in the House today.
Lord True
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for the final part of her response. I take some hope and encouragement from that. I hope that she will reflect on the matter; I certainly will. I had no expectation that my amendment was going to be a perfectly framed answer on this subject. However, I earnestly submit that there is a strong localist argument behind this point. I am content to withdraw my modest localising amendment if perhaps at a later stage the Government might return to me with the withdrawal of some of their rather immodest centralising proposals. I thank my noble friend for her response and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Greaves
“(1) A local authority that is operating executive arrangements, an executive of such an authority or a committee or specified member of such an executive may arrange for the discharge of any functions which, under executive arrangements, are the responsibility of the executive by an area committee of that authority.
(2) Arrangements for the discharge of executive functions to an area committee made under this section are without prejudice to any other allocation of functions to such an area committee that the local authority may make.”
Lord Greaves
My Lords, Amendment 39 is the most important amendment in this group about area committees. It seeks to remove most of the central prescription about area committees and how they should work. I will also speak to Amendments 41 and 42 in my name, and comment on the two Labour amendments in the group when I respond.
A theme is developing in the discussions this afternoon. The Bill merely restates the existing provision in the new Section 9EA of the Local Government Act 2000:
“The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision for or in connection with enabling an executive of a local authority, or a committee or specified member of such an executive, to arrange for the discharge of any functions which, under executive arrangements, are the responsibility of the executive by an area committee of that authority.
(2) Regulations under this section may impose limitations or restrictions on the arrangements which may be made by virtue of the regulations (including limitations or restrictions on the functions which may be the subject of such arrangements)”.
Why is this necessary? Why are local authorities thought to be so stupid that, even though they decide to set up area committees, of which I am a huge fan, they cannot be trusted to do it in a sensible way? Why can they not be trusted to take advantage of best practice in other places? Why can they not be trusted to listen to what people advise, wherever that advice comes from, and do what is most sensible in the circumstances? Why do they have to do it in the way laid down in detail in Whitehall?
I agreed entirely with the Minister when she said in her response to the first group that ideas come from sources other than local authorities. That is absolutely true. Ideas come from all over the place. Good ideas even come from national government and Whitehall. Local authorities can be expected to take account of those, to listen and do what is sensible. Back in 1974 when the new authorities were set up, it was generally thought that the way councils had operated before then was not very efficient and there needed to be changes. The Government set up a committee and the Baines report was produced as a result. It was almost universally accepted by local government throughout the country. It set up policy and resources committees, which were the big new idea of the time, with personnel and finance sub-committees and so on. The idea was that the operation of local authorities would be brought together in a more coherent, co-operative and corporate way, rather than each department of the authority operating in what people would nowadays call its own “silo”. That still happens in some authorities, but it was an attempt to bring it together, just as the idea of executives was an attempt to bring it together.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Harris of Richmond)
I must inform your Lordships that if Amendment 39 is agreed to I cannot call Amendment 40 by reason of pre-emption.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I speak to Amendments 40 and 43 and, in doing so, endorse very much what the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has said. This is another example of what Tony Blair might have described as “regulation, regulation, regulation”. It is certainly well over the top. In particular, new Section 9EA(2) of the Local Government Act 2000, which he read out, is as classic a piece of Civil Service gobbledegook as I have seen for some time. I guess that, as I go through the Bill, there would be further examples.
Amendment 40 would delete that clause, and Amendment 43 would deal with the prescription as to the size to be covered by an area committee, limiting it to two-fifths. In principle, I would like to see that matter left entirely to the discretion of local authorities. However, if the Government were not disposed to take that view, my amendment would reduce the size of the committee to something which is less like half the total size of an authority and more like what most of us would regard as a manageable area in which it is possible to reflect the views of local communities and members. If the Government wish to have some guideline on this, I invite the Minister to opt for something lower than the proportion indicated in subsection (5) as it now stands.
Lord Tope
My Lords, briefly, I support my noble friend Lord Greaves. He certainly has more experience of rural areas than I do, but I speak from the perspective of what he referred to as a “compact urban area” or, more accurately, a suburban area: a fairly small—in terms of area—London borough. We have six local committees on the council as a whole. There are 43 Liberal Democrat councillors and only 11 Conservative councillors. However, because of the political demography, one of those six local committees is still controlled by a Conservative majority.
Each of those local committees has limited executive powers, which we hope will be extended further, and each operates in quite different ways, partly because of the councillors on them and the way in which they choose to react, and partly, and more particularly, because of the nature of the areas that they represent. All of the councillors for those areas are members of those local committees, to a varying extent, and the local residents in those areas come to those meetings certainly to a far greater extent than they attend meetings of our executive. They take part in those committees and, to varying extents, they feel that they are part of the deliberations.
As a council we have not felt it necessary to prescribe in great detail what each of those local committees shall, or shall not, do or how they will, or will not, behave. They behave sensibly, even the one run by the Conservatives behaves moderately sensibly. We demonstrate, in a very obvious way, the difference between a Conservative-run committee and a Liberal Democrat-run committee. That is what democracy is about; it is what we ought to be doing. As a council, we have not felt the need to prescribe it, nor have we ever thought that we should have prescribed it. I commend to the Government the fact that they too should trust local authorities in this case, as we trust local committees.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, on this debate, I hear what noble Lords say. I shall reflect carefully on what has been said and I shall ask noble Lords to withdraw their amendments for the time being.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I commend the reply of the Minister on this group of amendments. I advise her to use that exact wording for every group of amendments that we put forward throughout the rest of the Bill; however, I do not say that very optimistically. There are clearly some discussions to be had.
I would just like to respond to the amendments spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and particularly to Amendment 43, which I disagree with fundamentally. In a sense, the amendment reflects the diversity and variety of local government and the representation of local government in your Lordships' House and in this Committee. It is a big-city view, a view of big authorities: in a big city, an area committee of 40 per cent would, in almost any conceivable situation, be ridiculous. However, that is not necessarily the case in smaller authorities.
Perhaps I can tell the Committee the position in my own authority in Pendle. We have five area committees and they range from 32 per cent—these figures are based on mid-year population estimates for 2008—down to 10.7 per cent. The 32 per cent is for the town of Nelson, which has an estimated population of 28,745, which, by big-city standards, is not excessive—it might be just two wards or one and a half wards in some big cities. It would be ridiculous to split Nelson because it is a community with a town centre. You walk from the middle of the town centre and you get to the edge of the town and Nelson stops and you are in the countryside and into smaller communities. I believe that the figure of 40 per cent is right. Quite clearly, there needs to be sensible reflection on the basis of local knowledge in a particular area.
Lord Beecham
Does the noble Lord agree that the best course would be to dispense with the clause altogether and leave the matter entirely to the discretion of the local authority, which is my first preference?
Lord Greaves
The noble Lord knows that I agree with him on that. It should be left to the good sense of local authorities. It is difficult to see a situation in which you would want a system of area committees where one area committee was more than half, but there might be such circumstances. There might be a district authority with a large town that is surrounded by a constellation of smaller communities. That would be the sensible way to do it. I believe that if it is left to sensible local discretion, the areas will be based on the real communities that exist there in the best possible way they can be defined on a sensible working basis.
I thank the Minister for her interesting reply on Amendment 39 and I look forward to discussions on it. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 84DA in the same group, which stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Hamwee. My noble friend would certainly have wished to move this amendment but, unfortunately, she cannot be here. It is suggested to us by the Centre for Public Scrutiny, on whose advisory body she serves, and it follows a theme of today's discussion in Committee. The effect of Amendment 84DA is to remove the right of the Secretary of State to make detailed guidance on scrutiny issues. It would remove the statutory force from existing guidance that the department has produced but, of course, local authorities would still be able to use that existing guidance to get some idea of the legislative intent of Parliament.
The centre believes, and I certainly agree with it very strongly, that the maximum possible discretion should be given to local authorities about how they operate their scrutiny function, with primary legislation providing general enabling powers which are interpreted intelligently by councils, councillors and their officers. Scrutiny is a member-led function and, therefore, it seems inappropriate that Government should provide detailed prescription of its operation. That is the same theme with which we have been dealing all day today and I suspect that we shall continue to do so through much of this Bill.
Where a specific need for guidance is identified, advisory information can be developed by the sector which can incorporate the views of the Government but which would be prepared independently and based on the needs and interests of local authorities and their residents. The justification for omitting this paragraph on guidance is a combination of practical reasons and reasons of principle. I beg to move.
Lord True
My Lords, I do not wish to prolong proceedings, but I have not had an opportunity to say how much I agree with the general thrust of many of the things that are being said. It may be that, at a later stage, it will be possible, through Amendment 84DA, to leave out a “must” and put in a “may”. Those who advise the Secretary of State, and who have the pleasure of writing all sorts of guidance for local authorities, could continue to do so and we could pay due respect to the importance of that guidance and to guidance that came from other sources. Then perhaps everyone would be delighted and a little localism might reign.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, we are back again to the same arguments that we had on the previous amendment on area committees. It relies on the regulations. I thank my noble friend Lord True for suggesting a way in which amendments might come. I think we need to look carefully at what has been said. Perhaps I need to review this before the next stage to see whether anything needs to be done about these provisions.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that very helpful response. We are now into the realm of guidance. It seems to me that guidance is a more acceptable face of regulation—or its better looking twin, as it were—but there is a little bit too much of that as well in the Bill. Matters like this can perfectly sensibly be left to individual local authorities and the guidance that other bodies, such as the Local Government Association, would be prepared to offer. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response. As we go through the Bill, I think there will be many examples where all sides of the House would wish to see precisely that accommodating attitude reflected so that we do not end up on Report with many detailed amendments which should not be dividing us at all.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for what I interpret as a very positive response. I am sure that we will discuss further how we can best approach this subject and I am sure that the Centre for Public Scrutiny would be pleased to engage in that. As I say, the theme that has run through our discussion today is the necessity to have more control and influence over what local authorities do and the extent to which they should be enabled to have the freedom that the Bill purports to give them. There is a distinction between guidance which has statutory force and disseminating good practice, which good local authorities would be well advised to adopt but should not be required by statute to do so. I hope that when we come to the next stage of the Bill we will be able to reflect that in a more appropriate way. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Shipley
Lord Shipley
My Lords, this group of amendments relates to scrutiny. In my view, scrutiny is best achieved by a committee system. A committee system is better at delivering good decisions than a scrutiny system which scrutinises those decisions after they have been made. In other words, you scrutinise as you go.
This is a probing amendment. As we do not have a voting system for local government in England based on proportional representation, some councils can have very large majorities held by one party. This may not be reflected in the votes that were cast but is very often reflected in the number of seats that are won. Good scrutiny requires constant challenge. Scrutiny committees are proportional in their overall membership but it would be advantageous for them to be chaired by a member of the authority’s largest opposition party.
Members of your Lordships' House are aware that I am a councillor in Newcastle upon Tyne. In 2004, when my party took control of Newcastle City Council, we altered the system to ensure that the Labour opposition chaired all our scrutiny committees. I am pleased to say that this year, when control of Newcastle reverted—temporarily, at least—to the Labour Party, chairmanship of the scrutiny committees passed to the Liberal Democrat opposition. Public scrutiny and public confidence in the system of local government would be improved if scrutiny committees were chaired by opposition councillors. That does not mean that a scrutiny committee has to be proportional in any regard other than the number of seats held by each party. However, public confidence in the system would be improved if the person constructing the agendas was an elected councillor of a party other than the one that was in control of the council. I beg to move.
Lord True
My Lords, I understand where the noble Lord is coming from but there are obvious difficulties with the amendment quite apart from whether or not it is tending towards prescription. For example, I recall a not very happy election in 1986 when I was one of three members of my party on our local authority—
Lord True
It may have been for others. I did not know that the noble Lord, Lord Tope, was there. In those circumstances, had there been a scrutiny system with four scrutiny committees, under this amendment a member of the opposition would have found himself or herself chairing two scrutiny committees. The principle behind the amendment is a good one but in practice it simply would not work. In my humble view, the so-called “cabinet” system that was imposed on us by the previous Administration has tended, as many of us involved in local government know, to create a potential gulf between the executive members and the back-bench members of the governing party and local authorities have had to work against that all the time. It is vital that back-bench members of the governing party have full involvement—often very sceptical involvement—in the operation of the authority. It is desirable that they should also be given the opportunity to take a leading role in challenging the authority and scrutinising it. This is often the case in many authorities that I know and have visited. It would be outrageous for the opposition party to be excluded from chairing scrutiny committees but equally, as well as being impractical in certain circumstances, it would be undesirable to exclude the back-bench members of a governing party from being involved in taking executive decisions and playing a leading role in scrutiny. Therefore, I am afraid that I cannot support my noble friend’s amendment.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I begin by paying tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and his colleagues for changing the system that we operated in Newcastle when they took office in 2004. I will let the noble Lord and your Lordships into the secret that prior to that date I had tried to persuade my colleagues at least to emulate the system in another place of a balance of chairmanship of such committees, but with my usual lack of cogency I failed to persuade them at that time. However, they have now been converted by the noble Lord and his colleagues, so things move on.
I entirely accept what the noble Lord, Lord True, has said about the impracticality of the suggestion behind the amendment. I can give a better justification. The borough of Newham has 60 Labour members and no opposition members at all—or at least no overt opposition members—so clearly the amendment would not work there. The Labour Party advice about scrutiny committees is that the relevant duty should be shared. That is national Labour Party advice and I hope that the same is true of other political parties as well. It would make a great deal of sense.
If I differ from the noble Lord it is because, as has rather often been the case, he has tended to view scrutiny as something retrospective and as a case of holding an executive to account for decisions that it has made or is about to make. That is part of the job but it overlooks the forward programming of an authority and the development of policy. One of the great advantages of properly resourced scrutiny is that it allows members to develop policy free of the operation of the whip, which should not apply in scrutiny.
After 24 years chairing committees and leading a council, I was eventually voluntarily dispatched to my Siberian power station; that is, the arts and recreation committee in Newcastle. I found that being a back-bencher was very different from chairing a meeting. As the chairman of a meeting, you had an agenda and if you were any good at it you knew what you wanted, you had a discussion and you got it through. In Newcastle’s case I would have a pre-meeting with 15 Labour members for an hour. That represents an average of four minutes each. The dialogue was not Socratic in its nature. It was not the highest level of political debate and many members were simply concerned to get through the meeting as quickly as possible. By contrast, scrutiny actually allows people to think. Some people found the transition to be rather difficult, but it is welcome.
The whole thing can be summarised for me by my moment of revelation, which came when, having missed a meeting, I went to a meeting of the arts and recreation committee—a very worthy committee with a big agenda —and I read in a minute that a member had raised the question of birds eating grass seed on the Leazes Park allotment. I thought, “Has it really come to this? This is not really an effective way of running things”. I therefore support in principle the executive scrutiny split, provided that scrutiny is adequately resourced.
Subject to those reservations, I generally support scrutiny. I will refer briefly to Amendment 48 in this group relating to new Section 9FC and the guidance being proffered. New subsection (3) states that in exercising the power to refer matters to a scrutiny committee,
“the member must have regard to any guidance for the time being issued by the Secretary of State”.
The notion that 20,000 councillors are going to consult the bible on scrutiny issued by Eland House before they are able to refer something is, frankly, ridiculous. I anticipate that the Minister will acknowledge that this could be excised from the Bill without damage. I invite her so to indicate.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I am sure that we will all forgive the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for paying tribute to my noble friend Lord Shipley. It was a well deserved tribute. Perhaps I may also help him with the problem he enunciated about the London Borough of Newham. Of course, it would make it very much easier for Newham to implement my noble friend’s proposals were we to have proportional representation in local government. For the past 25 years, the first past the post system in local government has very ill served the Conservative Party; it has, throughout pretty well all those 25 years, been most unjustly served by our current electoral system. None of that was what I intended to say. In fact, I rose to speak to Amendment 46 and 47 in this group. My noble friend Lord Greaves will speak to Amendments 49 and 49C.
Amendment 46 is self-explanatory. Its provisions recognise the reality of a situation that in many authorities it is not a single officer who alone has the scrutiny function. That person will inevitably, in most cases, need other officers in the discharge of those functions. That speaks for itself and my amendment is a better way to reflect reality in most authorities.
Amendment 47 is rather more serious. Its purpose, if we are to have this part of the Bill, is that the scrutiny provisions should apply also to district councils. I am sure that my noble friend Lord Greaves has far greater experience. I have no experience of district councils because I am in an inner London borough. I know of no reason why—albeit with lesser functions—district councils should not be treated in exactly the same way as all other local authorities of whatever type in the country, as far as the scrutiny function is concerned. That is why Amendment 47 seeks to remove from the Bill the new subsection that excludes district councils from these provisions.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I speak to Amendments 49 and 49C, and I support the comments of my noble friend Lord Tope about district councils. Whether the prescription on scrutiny should exist is a matter for discussion. If it should, then it should apply to district councils as well as to everyone else.
There is a view across parts of the legislation that was brought in 10 years ago that district councils’ overview and scrutiny functions are in some way less important than those of bigger councils. However, for some of the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord True, talked about earlier, because district councils are smaller councils and there are more councillors per elector—often a lot more—scrutiny of local services generally, as well as of their own services, is something that they can do very well indeed.
That leads me to Amendment 49, which removes more classic words. The new subsection states that an “excluded matter”, which I shall describe in a minute,
“means any matter which is … a matter of any description specified in an order made by the Secretary of State for the purposes of this section”.
What major national imperative is there that the Secretary of State should make an order excluding matters from discussion? The matters to be discussed are defined as “local government” matters. This exclusion allows the Secretary of State to produce a list of things that the Secretary of State says are not local government matters and, therefore, under this new section, cannot be referred to an overview and scrutiny committee by a member of the council. This is silly.
I do not know what other provision we are using to do it, or if we are just doing it, but my council has decided on and is getting on with scrutiny of part of the local health service within east Lancashire. It provides a vital service that is not provided by the local authority, although it has some limited influence and joint schemes. However, the local authority is performing some scrutiny. Clearly, it will have to do it with the co-operation of those parts of the health service that are being scrutinised, but that can take place. It may or may not be a local government matter. I do not know whether the Secretary of State wants to exclude it under this provision, but it is the sort of situation in which you should let the local authority get on and do what it wants to do in the interests of the people in the area.
The purpose of the second amendment, Amendment 49C, is probing. It refers to new Section 9FF(1)(b) on page 202 of this compendium Bill and to recommendations relating,
“to a local improvement target which … relates to a relevant partner authority, and … is specified in a local area agreement of the authority”.
I have never really understood local area agreements or got too involved in them, but my impression was that this Government were scaling back on the importance of such agreements and perhaps were looking to abolish them. Perhaps the Minister can tell me where we stand on that.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I shall start by saying that I recognise a lot of what I have heard from noble Lords regarding how councils operate. The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, would make it compulsory for scrutiny committees to be chaired by the leader of the opposition party on a council. This amendment is unnecessary. I know of many councils that do precisely that, whereby a leader or senior member of the opposition party chairs review and scrutiny meetings. That is absolutely proper, but such a provision does not need to be couched in either guidance or legislation. As the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, pointed out, there may be some areas where there are no opposition members, but the amendment would make such a provision mandatory. There are some areas where all members are Conservatives and the issue is the same. I hope that from the tenor of the debate noble Lords will agree that such a provision is neither appropriate nor necessary, and that we should not return to it. The annual scrutiny survey, which, I must say, I did not know existed, shows an upward trend, with 42 per cent of authorities allocating scrutiny chairs to members outside the majority group. This idea is clearly taking off well enough, without any interference from Parliament.
Amendments 46 and 47 would change the arrangements on designated scrutiny officers, particularly to make it clear that a designated officer could lead other officers in the discharge of scrutiny functions, as well as requiring district councils in two-tier areas to designate a scrutiny officer. Again, the amendments proposed are not necessary. Of course, we envisage that scrutiny will involve a number of officers to support a scrutiny committee. That already happens, it is part and parcel of the way scrutiny committees are run, and indeed in some councils they are completely separate from the rest of the administration so that they are completely independent. It is unimaginable that one scrutiny officer could not appoint somebody to help him. It is certainly not necessary to make that mandatory because I am quite certain that in most local authorities that is precisely what happens. There is nothing to prevent a district council in a two-tier area designating a scrutiny officer but statute does not require this. Noble Lords have made the point that district councils perhaps do not have quite such onerous responsibilities as county councils and therefore it is not mandatory for them to have a designated officer, although of course if they choose to have one they can. That is perfectly in order.
Amendments 48 and 49 remove the requirement on members to have regard to the guidance and the regulation-making powers of the Secretary of State in relation to referral of matters to a scrutiny committee. These powers enable the Secretary of State to ensure that certain important safeguards are in place. Regulations made under the power that noble Lords are seeking to remove protect against vexatious or discriminatory matters from being placed on the scrutiny committee meeting agenda. They also exclude matters for which there are already statutory processes and rights of appeal, such as planning and licence decisions or matters relating to an individual. It is not unreasonable that those matters should be placed before scrutiny committees in the course of their business.
We believe that the existing framework is working pretty well without removing the requirement for scrutiny committees to make reports and recommendations relating to partner authorities and local area agreements. Having said that, I have some sympathy with Amendment 49C, which is seeking to remove the link between local improvement targets and local area agreements—that might indeed become otiose. We are absolutely clear that where authorities operate executive governance arrangements, scrutiny arrangements must be in place. We recognise that scrutiny plays an important role in holding the executive to account and contributing to policy development in authorities. I certainly support what the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, says—that overview and scrutiny committees, like planning committees, should not be whipped. They are clearly committees where scrutiny and challenge should take place and that should not be done against a background of being told what to do.
Amendment 69 would make it mandatory for councils with committee systems to have an overview and scrutiny committee. That is not necessary. The committee system in itself should have a scrutiny role and always did in the past—that was one of the benefits of the committee system. Therefore, that amendment is not necessary.
With the various explanations and assurances I have given, I hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments.
Lord Beecham
I am grateful to the Minister for her response. In relation to Amendment 69, which I did not address before, scrutiny ought not to be just a matter of looking at the internal workings and policies of the council itself. It should be used, and in many cases is being used, as the noble Lord, Lord Tope, mentioned, to look beyond what other organisations are doing—or not doing, more to the point—in the locality beyond the statutory requirements, for example, that would apply to the health service for authorities with adult service responsibilities. The amendment does not quite address the issue in the terms that perhaps it should have done but I would welcome some encouragement from the Minister for authorities which do not necessarily have a scrutiny committee to use their own committee system for that purpose, and to encourage those to whom application is made for some explanation of what they are doing in a locality to respond as if this were a request from a scrutiny committee. It would be helpful if Ministers said something to support such activity on the part of councils, particularly district councils, which perhaps do not have a full-blown scrutiny process but which may seek to follow the example of other authorities which do have that process to explore the workings of organisations, be they public sector or private sector, and the impact they have on their community.
Baroness Hanham
There is quite a lot of common sense in what the noble Lord has said. I am not going to make any commitments but I would like to talk to the noble Lord before the next stage because I accept that things have changed a lot since the previous committee system was in place, not least partnership working and working across public bodies. It may be that as part of the committee system we at least ought to give tacit acknowledgement to the fact that there may be joint issues they need to discuss. I am not sure whether that needs to be a full scrutiny role or whether it should simply be that the local health authority, or whatever it is, turns up if invited by the committee. Perhaps the noble Lord and I could discuss that before the next stage.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, the Minister said that there might need to be some modification in relation to local improvement targets and local area agreements. Perhaps she could write and tell me exactly where we are with these now, what their status is and what the Government’s intentions are.
Baroness Hanham
I will happily do that and I will lay a copy of the answer in the Library.
Lord Shipley
My Lords, before I formally withdraw my amendment, I would like to make two brief points. First, I agree entirely with my noble friend Lord True that in scrutiny there has to be a clear role for back-benchers, particularly those of the controlling party, but there can of course be vice-chairs, and that system works well. Secondly, I hope that the Minister is right that legislation here is unnecessary and will simply bear in mind my amendment should it prove not to be the case. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Tope
My Lords, in moving Amendment 45A I will attempt to speak to the other 31 amendments in this group. I feel sure that your Lordships will be grateful if I do not list each of those 31 amendments to which I am speaking.
These amendments have come from the Centre for Public Scrutiny and would have been spoken to far more eloquently by my noble friend Lady Hamwee, who serves on its advisory board. I shall endeavour to cover them myself. I share the centre’s concern that in some places scrutiny has got a rather bad name. As the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said earlier, this is partly because it is seen as simply a post-hoc thing, looking back at what was done and might have been done differently rather than as part of a policy development framework, and also because of some of the effects of the rather strict executive/scrutiny split that we have had for the last 10 or 11 years.
Success in scrutiny is about culture and personal relationships, not processes. As it stands, the law makes unrealistic and unreasonable demands on scrutiny councillors and scrutiny functions to act in a certain way. The law is internally inconsistent, causing frustration to members and officers, who feel that they are constrained in what they can and cannot do for apparently no good reason. At no point have these policy constraints been explained by government. They are the result of 10 years of piecemeal changes to the legislation without any coherent thought having been given to the way that scrutiny operates across the piece. The Bill provides an ideal opportunity to take a broad look and make changes that are supported by practitioners in local government. That is what this raft of amendments seeks to do. Again, I can explain in some detail what each of the 32 amendments seeks to achieve. I can see from the expressions around me in the Chamber that your Lordships are keen and eager for me to do exactly that but I will not. I simply say that they seek to cover two key areas where it is considered that scrutiny needs additional freedom to become more effective.
Lord True
My Lords, I support in some measure the remarks of my noble friend Lord Tope. I hear what is said about the Centre for Public Scrutiny and all its recommendations. Equally, I hear all that the Government want to say about scrutiny. I am sure that there are two very worthy industries involved here that may well come together. I support the recommendation that my noble friend has made to come forward with thickets of advice to local authorities on these subjects—may the twain meet.
However, as this debate goes on, I sometimes wonder whether the end result might be that parts of the Government involved in providing guidance and regulations could be hived off as a social enterprise, perhaps co-operating with other areas in local government. They could sell the benefits of their advice to local authorities and we might be able to reduce the size of government and perhaps, in partnership, improve the quality of advice. That is a slightly impish suggestion but, on the other hand, it is not entirely without seriousness.
I particularly support Amendment 47A, which addresses the point made by my noble friend Lord Greaves. I think that it would allow issues that were not technically local government matters to be referred to scrutiny. I support Amendment 48A on a probing basis. It would delete from the Bill the words:
“Guidance under subsection (3) may make different provision for different cases”.
This means that if a member of an authority wants to say to a scrutiny chairman, “I think this is something you need to look into”, first, he has to refer to the existing legislation, which is before us, and look up the bible of guidance that will be issued by the government department. He may then find that that guidance makes different provision for different cases, with scrutiny into this or that or some other circumstances, and he is therefore entering a potential nightmare world. I know that my noble friend, local government and outside advisers do not want to go there, but I return to my general point. I hope that those discussions can take place but I hope that the presiding principle in all this will be to minimise the requirements on local authorities to read, mark, learn, inwardly digest and obey. Let us please have localism.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their amendments, and I start by saying that I shall be helpful in relation to some but not to others. As noble Lords have said, the various amendments in the group seek to remove the guidance or regulation-making powers of the Secretary of State—a common theme this afternoon. In each case, the powers enable certain safeguards to be in place. Although noble Lords are critical of regulation, sometimes it is necessary at the same time to protect other aspects with which they are concerned.
Amendment 45A would remove the ability to issue guidance on important matters such as scrutiny chairs, as we discussed on the previous group. Amendments 48A, 48B and 48C would remove the requirement for members to have regard to guidance and the Secretary of State’s regulation-making power in relation to the referral of matters to a scrutiny committee. However, as I said, these powers enable the Secretary of State to ensure that certain important safeguards are in place. We have discussed some of them, such as vexatious or discriminatory matters being placed before a scrutiny committee, which we talked about on the previous amendment. I do not think that it is unreasonable that that sort of aspect should be ruled out of the scrutiny committee’s responsibilities. Some might take that view and some might not but I think it is sensible that they are left with no option about that. As well as rights of appeal, the amendments would also exclude matters that are already statutory processes, such as planning and licensing decisions or matters relating, for example, to an individual. Therefore, I shall not be able to accept those amendments.
Amendments 49U and 49V would remove the ability of the Secretary of State to make regulations to guard against the duplication of requests by scrutiny committees to other partner bodies. They are regulations that seek to minimise the burden on such authorities and make best use of the available information.
Amendments 47A, 49A, 49B and 49D to 49T also look to reform existing scrutiny provisions by simplifying and expanding the definition of “partner bodies”. They would expand the matters in relation to which scrutiny committees may rely on their powers, removing the link to local area agreements—which we have already agreed I should look at—and extending the powers of district council scrutiny committees, among other things, as we have already discussed.
As I said in the debate on the previous group, we do not believe that the existing framework hampers innovative practices by scrutiny committees. However, I have some sympathy with the aims of some of the amendments, and, again, I shall draw them into the discussions that we need to have. They seek to bring up to date the scrutiny regime that sits across various Acts of Parliament in light of recent changes, so it is right that we should look at them.
I am happy to consider Amendments 47A, 49A, 49B, and 49D to 49T. In debating previous amendments, we also discussed committee system authorities and the operation of scrutiny. Our view is that such authorities should be able to choose to have overview and scrutiny committees. Proposed new Section 9JA makes this clear. Removing the section entirely would create confusion. It would be unclear whether committee system authorities could operate scrutiny committees, and what the role and powers of such committees would be if they did. Therefore, the amendment is proposing that is unnecessary.
The provisions that Amendments 87ZB to 87ZD seek to change replicate existing provisions in the Local Government Act 2000, which reflect the important interests that the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church have in the provision of education, given the significant number of voluntary-aided schools in most if not all local authorities. It is correct that these significant partners in education should by right have representation on the relevant scrutiny committees. Therefore, we do not support the amendments.
With those explanations, the realisation that we discussed some issues when debating the previous group of amendments, and my acceptance of further discussions on some of the amendments, I hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, again I found that a very helpful answer, and I agreed with most of the comments and responses that the noble Baroness gave. I offer a suggestion about where an assurance at some stage would be helpful. In exercising his powers to proffer guidance, the Secretary of State might wish to consult either or both—preferably both—the Local Government Association and the Centre for Public Scrutiny. One would not want to write the Centre for Public Scrutiny into statute, but an indication that there would be those discussions, particularly with the Centre for Public Scrutiny, which is quite independent, would be helpful in ensuring that the guidance was broadly acceptable to the local government world and beyond. I take the point that it is necessary, in order to ensure public confidence and that minorities within local government are protected—given that the politics can be a little difficult at times—that there should be some guidance on this range of issues. If the guidance were informed by the Centre for Public Scrutiny and consulted on with the LGA, that would be a way forward. The provision does not need to be statutory, but an indication would be very helpful. I do not ask the Minister to respond immediately.
Lord Tope
My Lords, as always I am grateful to the Minister for her reply. I rather wish now that I had gone into each amendment in a little more detail, because they are worthy of discussion. I do not accept entirely the responses of the Minister, but now is not the opportunity to discuss them in detail. However, I am grateful for her willingness at least to consider the issues further. As I said, the amendments were suggested by the Centre for Public Scrutiny, which has considerable experience, and an obvious interest, in ensuring that scrutiny, by whatever system, works more effectively and that we learn from the experience of previous years in order to improve it. That is the sole object of my amendments, which I am sure that all noble Lords will share.
We will certainly take the Minister up on her offer of further discussions, not just on the specifics of the amendments—she is sympathetic to some and clearly not to others—but to try to ensure that the Bill achieves what I hope it seeks to achieve, which is to grant local authorities more freedom to conduct scrutiny, to do so more effectively and to do so in respect of other organisations with whom they share services, help to deliver them or play an important part in local communities. Given the assurance from the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw the first in this raft of amendments and will try to keep up as we go through the rest.
Lord Beecham
Lord Beecham
My Lords, the amendment touches on the question of transparency and the openness to the public of meetings. It seeks to reflect what I understand to be the present position, which is that meetings are open unless council committees or executives decide to exclude the press and public, usually on grounds of confidentiality. This might be commercial confidentiality or sensitive staff issues and the like. The amendments in my name create a presumption that the meetings will be open to the public unless there are good reasons for not having them as such. Those reasons clearly would have to be enunciated. It is difficult to find a form of words that fully meets the case. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, will speak to his amendments, which import the term “necessarily”. However, the question then arises of how one defines what is necessary. There is no simple answer, but it is important to have the presumption in the Bill if we can get it, and I look forward to hearing from the Minister in due course.
Lord Shipley
My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 53, 54 and 55 in my name. Each is a probing amendment to get confirmation from the Minister that there will be no deterioration in the access of the general public, the press and opposition councillors to meetings and to information. I seek that reassurance because, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, says, it is quite difficult to get the right wording. The overriding intention must be that there should be no deterioration in what currently pertains in local government for individuals—the public, the media or other councillors—seeking access to meetings and information. The Bill confers an awful lot of powers on the Secretary of State to make decisions in that area. I understand why that is, but I would be more comfortable if it was absolutely clear to the general public that there will be no diminution in their access to information and meetings.
Baroness Byford
Perhaps my noble friend would clarify the position. I would like to see a presumption that the meetings will be open, but obviously under certain circumstances access will be restricted. As things stand, it is a case of either/or; there is no presumption that open meetings will be the norm and that meetings held in private will be exceptional. Perhaps the Minister will comment on that.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, the current presumption of meetings being held in public comes under the Local Authorities (Executive Arrangements) (Access to Information) (England) Regulations 2000, with which I am sure the noble Lord is entirely familiar. The general principle of that is that there is a presumption in favour of openness, where key decisions of executives are made.
We are—I hardly dare to say the word—aiming to make new regulations which will remove some of the current prescription that make it clear that there is a presumption in favour of public meetings. As the noble Lord has already said, it is essential that there is some ability for a committee to close its proceedings for private or confidential reasons, but those must not be outwith what would normally be discussed in public. We are going to retain the parts in the Local Authorities (Executive Arrangements) (Access to Information) (England) Regulations 2000—I will not go through that again—to ensure that written records of certain decisions must be available to the public. We are also going to regulate how they must be made available so, as a result of what we are proposing, there will not be any deterioration in the right of access to meetings. We will just tidy up to make it clear that, as the noble Lord and other noble Lords have said, the presumption in favour of open meetings is absolutely understood.
Lord Beecham
I accept the Minister’s helpful suggestions, as ever, and I shall refer to the 2000 local government regulations. I shall look them up tonight. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Wills
“(2) Except to the extent that regulations under section 9GA(4) prescribe otherwise, meetings of a local authority executive or of a committee of the executive are to be open to the public.”
Lord Wills
My Lords, I shall also speak to Amendments 133A to 133C and Amendment 181A, which are in my name. I should perhaps apologise to the Minister and her officials for having given them relatively little time to consider these amendments. I will of course understand if she is not yet in a position to respond substantively to all of these amendments, but I should be grateful if she would undertake at least to consider them and perhaps respond in due course. These amendments are grouped together because they all deal with the application of the Freedom of Information Act to bodies being given greater powers under this Bill and are all informed by the principle that with greater power should come greater accountability. It is a principle which of course, chimes with the coalition agreement. As I am sure the Minister will not need me to remind her, it states:
“We will extend the scope of the Freedom of Information Act to provide greater transparency”.
Amendment 52A is my attempt to deal with the issue raised by the amendments which have just been discussed. It is designed to try to increase the transparency of local authority agreements. For those authorities operating executive agreements new regulations are to be made, as the Minister has just said, governing the circumstances in which meetings and documents must be open to the public. I take it that the assumption behind these provisions is that the new regulations will be brought into force before or at the same time as the new executive arrangements take place. However, if that does not happen and new executive arrangements come into force before the proposed regulations, the default position will be that an executive will be free to decide for itself which of its meetings are to be open to the public and which are to be held in private.
In theory, at least, executives would be free to hold all their meetings in private if they so chose. Amendment 52A reverses that default position. In the absence of regulations—with the best will in the world, regulations do not always appear when Ministers intend— this amendment ensures that all meetings of the executive or its committee would have to be held in public. In my view, that is a better default arrangement than one which permits executives to exclude the public from all of their meetings and operate entirely in private until such regulations are made.
Clearly, this is not the most fundamental safeguard of openness and, as my noble friend Lord Beecham and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, have said, it is difficult to get the wording right on this issue. Everything will depend on the provision of the regulations that are to come. However, as I understand they are not available yet, even in draft, it is difficult at this stage of the proceedings to comment further. However, I hope that this amendment will be at least a start in bringing transparency to such proceedings.
Amendments 133A to 133C set out to improve the transparency of services delivered by a local authority through others. The Bill envisages that a growing proportion of local authorities’ functions will be carried out for them by other bodies operating under contract. Amendment 133A deals with what information the public can obtain under the Freedom of Information Act about the work done for an authority under contract. If the authority carries out the work itself, all information about that work is subject to the Act but the public's rights to information are less straightforward when the work is done by a contractor.
Section 1 of the Freedom of Information Act establishes that the right of access is to information which a public authority holds. Section 3(2)(b) of the Act provides that information which another person holds,
“on behalf of the authority”,
is treated as being held by the authority itself. However, how much of the information that a contractor holds about the contract is held on behalf of an authority? The answer is not self-evident. The contract itself may specify that particular information is to be treated as held on behalf of the authority or that a specified type of information must be provided to the authority, if it asks for it to help it answer a freedom of information request. Yet what if such a provision applies only to a very limited class of information? The effect may be then to exclude from access any information which is not specifically mentioned.
For example, in 2007, Islington Council received a freedom of information request for information about the criteria used to reward parking attendants for good results. I am sure that noble Lords will know that this is an electrically sensitive issue for many motorists in London and elsewhere in the country. The parking attendants were employed by National Car Parks Ltd under a contract with the council. The rewards included bonus performance payments and points that could be spent at Argos. The requestor wanted anonymised information about the rewards provided to the best performing parking attendants, including the number of penalty charge notices issued by them, the number of complaints involving those attendants and the number of notices subsequently cancelled. The requestor clearly suspected that the incentives were leading attendants to issue as many notices as they possibly could, regardless of any justification—clearly, a matter of considerable public interest.
The council replied that it did not hold such statistics and that the contract did not give it the power to obtain them from the contractor. The Information Commissioner then examined the contract in force at the time and found that it imposed no requirement on National Car Parks to provide statistical information about the Argos points, the performance payments to individual staff or the criteria used to decide who should receive these. He concluded that this information was not held on the council's behalf and not accessible to it under the Freedom of Information Act, yet that information was central to any attempt to understand whether the incentives were encouraging notices to be issued improperly. That is exactly the kind of problem that may occur when people attempt to use the Freedom of Information Act to obtain information about contracts.
Amendment 133A attempts to deal with this issue by stating that any new contract entered into in future by a local authority will be “deemed to include a” contractual “freedom of information provision”. It stipulates that all information about the performance of the contract which is held by the contractor is,
“deemed to be held on behalf of the … authority for the purpose of … the Freedom of Information Act”.
Incidentally, this would also apply to the Environmental Information Regulations, which provide a parallel right of access to environmental information. If such a request for information is made about the performance of the contract, that information would be within the scope of the legislation, even if held by the contractor. No confidentiality clause would be capable of setting that provision aside. The intention is that the public's right to information—that right to “greater transparency” included in the coalition agreement—should be the same whether a particular task was carried out in-house or contracted out.
Lord True
My Lords, I am tempted to wonder how many pieces of information might have been released during the noble Lord’s exposition of his amendments—doubtless, very many.
I hope that my noble friend will consider sceptically the case that has been made. I am a strong exponent of the principle of openness—we discussed whether there should be a presumption of openness in our debate on a previous group of amendments. I think that I heard my noble friend give a commitment that it should apply to meetings.
The noble Lord is clearly a significant enthusiast for freedom of information, for which I commend him, but again I hope that my noble friend will be sceptical when she examines these amendments, which not many of us have had the opportunity to look at in detail. I asked my chief executive how much freedom of information implementation had cost my authority so far in the past year, to which the response was £120,000. That does not sound like very much but it approaches 1 per cent of the council’s discretionary budget, outside schools. The freedom that has been given is important, but it must be exercised in proportion. In my experience, quite often when someone pursued a freedom of information request they would have been given the answer through the front door if they had simply asked the question, although that clearly would not have been so in the case to which the noble Lord refers.
The noble Lord’s Amendment 52A intends to take these procedures into contractor arrangements, subcontractor arrangements, and doubtless sub-sub-subcontractor arrangements. It would end up creating such a cat’s cradle of bureaucracy for these arrangements that we might well end up, as the noble Lord himself recognised, deterring small businesses from putting themselves within this embrace. I reiterate that I strongly support the idea of freedom of information in principle, but I hope that when my noble friend considers this group of amendments she will, as I said, exercise due scepticism—on behalf of those of us, as publicly accountable authorities, who have to administer open systems, which we do—about the costs that local authorities, and through them their contractors and subcontractors, might incur. With £120,000, I could have created a fairly large number of very useful public assets. Doubtless some of the requests were extremely worth while, but there should be nothing in excess.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I think that we should thank my noble friend Lord Wills for giving us the opportunity to debate this issue. He had a distinguished ministerial career and responsibility for this area, which very much showed in his contribution today.
We are living in an era of transparency, which has already been very much the byword of many of our debates on this Bill. We are also living in an era in which there will be increasing partnership working, outsourcing and joint working, very much along the lines on which the noble Lord, Lord Tope, focused when he talked about scrutiny functions in our debate on a previous group of amendments. The focus of FOI in the current era is therefore entirely appropriate.
My noble friend’s Amendment 52A very much chimes with the group of amendments that we have just discussed in its presumption that meetings should be held in public. On Amendments 133A and 133B, he acknowledged—and the noble Lord, Lord True, touched on this—that we need to focus on the practical ramifications of driving freedom of information through a contractor, a subcontractor and then perhaps a sub-subcontractor chain. I am thinking particularly of the construction industry and how diverse and complex some of its contractual arrangements are.
In a sense, my noble friend offered the route to a solution when he said that there should be some sort of de minimis or cut-off point in the application of this. His focus, as he acknowledged, was partly on the business left over from when he was a Minister, but he also dealt with some practical examples, such as Swindon, and cited the Islington Council situation, which is not theoretical but actual.
The noble Lord, Lord True, said on the one hand that he was an enthusiast for freedom of information, but on the other urged his noble friend to be sceptical about it. I am not sure that those two concepts sit very comfortably together.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I do not disagree, but I thought that the noble Lord said that he was also an enthusiast for freedom of information. Maybe I misunderstand him and he is not, but if he is I do not think that that sits with his urging his noble friend to be sceptical.
As I said, my noble friend has given us an opportunity to have an interesting debate on an important subject. In particular, he has done us a service by focusing on particular issues relating to the Housing Ombudsman, and I am keen to hear the Minister’s response specifically to those. His request is not for the Minister to give a detailed response to his quite extensive and detailed amendment but for her to say whether the Government agree with the principle behind it. That is a very important ask, particularly, as he pointed out, because the coalition agreement has a commitment to freedom of information and to extending its scope. This area is worthy of further analysis and I hope that the Minister can give us some comfort on that matter.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wills, for his fairly extensive exposition on the Freedom of Information Act and its relationship with local government. I am sure that he will forgive me if I say that, not having had any detail of his speech beforehand, I simply am not out of my own head going to be able to answer all the important points that he raised, but I will do my best to cover some of them. If, later, we find something of significance, I will make sure that we write to him in response.
We have already discussed Amendment 52A, as the noble Lord acknowledged. I cannot say anything more than that we are very much in favour of open access to meetings of local authorities, but we recognise that there are occasions when confidential information has to be discussed—for example, information on contracts and members of staff. Meetings have to be closed sometimes, but we will make it clear that there has to be a presumption in favour of openness. We think that it is there anyway but we will underscore it.
My noble friend Lord McNally had hoped to be here because he has an overall eye on freedom of information. While I am very happy to take on anything, that seems to be one step too far, but he has asked me to say, in response to this, that the Government are committed to increasing transparency and that, almost without exception, central and local government are proactively publishing information about their contracts online. As noble Lords know, it is a requirement of government to do that and many local authorities have now taken that up and are doing it, which means that access to contract information is available to anyone who wants to see it. We feel, too, that in what is being done we have struck a balance between commitments to increase transparency and commitments to reduce regulatory burdens, particularly on business. I will go into that further in a minute. We do not believe that it is necessary to extend the Freedom of Information Act to those bodies at present with information about contracts with public authorities, which can be requested from them. A local authority can be quizzed about any contract that it has and we are proactively publishing contractual information online.
Amendment 133A would impose unacceptable additional burdens on business, similar to those that would be imposed if the Freedom of Information Act was extended to companies—not public companies but private ones. The Government have included provisions in the Protection of Freedoms Bill, to which the noble Lord referred, to extend the Freedom of Information Act with very limited exceptions to all companies wholly owned by public authorities. A few more of those will be coming up in the light of the legislation.
We have considered the extension of the Freedom of Information Act to companies where a majority of shares are owned by any number of public authorities, but to take this step would create uncertainty over which bodies were subject to the Act, particularly as bodies could pass in and out of its scope on transfer of shares. Should there be a strong argument for including a specific body, the option of inclusion through other means, such as an order under Section 5 of the Freedom of Information Act, still remains.
Amendment 133C would introduce a statutory requirement for the publication of an annual report by every local authority, including the smallest parish councils receiving very low volumes of freedom of information requests. We do not think that that is a burden that should be borne. Statistics about compliance with the Freedom of Information Act for government departments and a range of other central government bodies are already published voluntarily by the Ministry of Justice—indeed, the noble Lord may have generated this—on a quarterly basis. We would obviously encourage the publication of similar information by other public authorities receiving a significant number of freedom of information requests, including those within local government. The Freedom of Information Act will shortly be subject to post-legislative scrutiny, as I am sure the noble Lord knows, when it will be reviewed to ensure that it is delivering an efficient and effective mechanism by which the public can exercise their right to know and hold government to account.
Finally, on extending the Freedom of Information Act to cover the Housing Ombudsman, it is worth noting that we are planning to extend the Act to a considerable number of new bodies through legislation and we intend to keep those under review. While I do not say “in”, I do not say “out” at the present time.
I am very conscious that I have not been able to do anything like justice to all that the noble Lord has said. I hope that he will forgive me for that. I have answered some of the questions arising from the tabling of the amendments, although I appreciate that the noble Lord went wider than that to some extent. As I said in my previous commitment, we will go through Hansard to make sure that, if there is anything I have not touched on adequately, we will come back to it and write to him.
Lord Wills
I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Of course, I understand and I apologise again for not having given her and her officials longer to consider these matters in more depth. I am also extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord True, and my noble friend Lord McKenzie for their contributions to this debate. I understand what the noble Lord, Lord True, says about the burdens on local authorities. I am well aware that transparency can be extremely frustrating and irritating for all those in executive authority.
The noble Lord is right: I am an enthusiast for freedom of information legislation. I think that I was almost alone among my ministerial colleagues in being such an enthusiast and I have no doubt that the same sentiments as he has just articulated are to be found widely among local authorities. All that I can say to the noble Lord and all those who find this legislation irksome, which I well understand, is that I believe passionately that in the end greater transparency helps to improve the services that we all work to deliver, whether in local government or central government. I wish that I shared his confidence that statutory freedom of information requirements are not necessary, which I think was the burden of his remarks. If I shared his confidence, I would not have put down these amendments. Sadly, I do not.
I am grateful also for the contribution made by my noble friend Lord McKenzie, but most of all I am grateful to the Minister for the spirit in which she engaged with these amendments. However, her response was not quite as welcoming instinctively as I would have hoped, so I ask her to scrutinise the amendments in more detail and perhaps to consult the noble Lord, Lord McNally. I do not say that because I discount any possible burdens put on local authorities or contractors and small businesses. As someone who ran a small business in the past, I am deeply conscious of the need to avoid putting burdens on small businesses. These amendments were framed not to place a disproportionate burden on anyone. Perhaps on closer scrutiny that will become apparent.
I am willing to accept any suggestions for amendments and I am sure that the Government would be able to improve the drafting. The key point that I ask the Minister to take away is that, if the Government do not engage with the issues behind these amendments—not necessarily to accept these amendments as worded but with the issues behind them—that will mean, potentially, over time, a significant diminution of transparency in the operation of local authorities and those whom they contract to provide services for them. That is very serious for those who believe in freedom of information. It is in breach of a fundamental tenet of the coalition agreement, which is why I hope that this Government will take it seriously.
This Government are committed to greater transparency, but I suggest that, unless these amendments are engaged with in some form or other, we will see the progress towards greater transparency being reversed. I hope that the Minister will be able to write to me to reassure me on that point and possibly even to meet me before Report if she would be so kind, so that we could discuss these issues in more detail. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I am conscious that Amendment 56 is possibly not now the most important or interesting in this group, but we tabled it as a probing amendment with a view to asking the Minister to explain more clearly than is apparent in the Bill itself new Section 9H(3) and (4), which deals with the nature of a mayor and his or her relationship with the council. While I am on my feet, I shall refer to some of the other amendments in this group and, indeed, to others that are yet to come. Again I congratulate the Government on recognising that the whole question of shadow mayors and mayoral arrangements really has no place in a Bill that is about localism. As we discussed at Question Time yesterday, I know that it will be said by some that this is a sensible move by a listening Government, and said by others to be a U-turn. I do not mind very much what it is called; I just feel that the Government are to be congratulated.
I thank in particular the Minister for bringing the decision forward at such an early stage in our consideration of the Bill, which no doubt will save many hours of debate in this Chamber. With that, I beg to move Amendment 56 and I look forward to the debate on the other amendments in the group.
Lord True
My Lords, I have a number of amendments in this group, and I want to follow on from what the noble Lord, Lord Tope, has said by thanking very sincerely my noble friend for the leadership and responsiveness she has shown on this matter. Those of us who have been present in the Committee today will also have noted the openness, warmth and positive way in which she has responded to a number of the points that have been put forward. We are all grateful for that.
I am slightly confused by the groupings, which have changed a little overnight, perhaps for reasons related to pre-emption or to a number of other points. By the way, I should pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding, who played a big part in raising this issue at Second Reading. There was unity across the House that to create shadow mayors before the electors in the cities concerned had had an opportunity to have their say was not a good idea. The Minister then came forward at the earliest possible opportunity to say that the Government had accepted the arguments, so the principle does not need to be debated at any great length, and I do not propose to do so. However, I should give notice, in speaking to the large number of amendments within this grouping, that it should be taken that I have also spoken to Amendments 74A, 77A, 77B, 79A and 81A. They are not in this group, but they relate to the same subject. Even if I have it wrong, I hope that the Committee will accept that I shall not come back to those amendments later, and I repeat my thanks to my noble friend for taking up the point in the positive way she has.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, relates to the part of the Bill which defines a mayor as distinct from a councillor. I wonder whether that is particularly well advised. I cannot recall the precise clause or paragraph in the schedule that deals with the eligibility of people to stand for election as mayor. It lists a whole series of officers of an authority who may not stand. At the moment, a serving member or employee of a local authority is disbarred from standing as a councillor. If the mayoral position was to be treated for all purposes in the same way as a councillor, you would not need a provision in the Bill to identify all the authority officers who could not stand for that position. Indeed, it could be argued that if you do not treat the mayor as a councillor, you might find that some people are inadvertently omitted but who perhaps should be barred from seeking to be elected because they already hold a position within the authority. My understanding is that the bar will remain in place for some time after their period of service has concluded.
Would it not be sensible for the Government to rethink this provision and simply state, unless there is a regulation the other way, as it were, that all provisions relating to councillors such as declarations of interest and all the rest of it should apply to elected mayors, rather than reverse the procedure and require regulations specifically for the elected mayor which could otherwise be avoided?
In relation to the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord True, there was a problem, and indeed there still is a problem, in the grouping of these amendments. As I read it, many of the noble Lord’s amendments tag on to provisions for the implementation of the mayoral system, with reference to a referendum having taken place on the basis of three possibilities. One is the decision of a local authority itself, but subject to a referendum. Another is a petition from the public generally, and the third, which is the problematic one for many of us, is the requirement to hold a referendum by the Secretary of State. As I understand it, the noble Lord’s amendments, along with those of his noble friends, assume for the purposes of their amendments that the compulsory referendum remains part of the Bill. Last night I endeavoured to turn the debate around the other way so that we could deal with that issue first. When we come to consider the Bill on Report, perhaps we might look at how to address the issue.
The implementation points are perfectly valid and apply to the two non-compulsory forms of acquiring an elected mayor, but while I know that the Committee will not divide on them today, if the amendments were to be accepted on Report, it would be assumed that the compulsory referendum had been agreed. Some of us, perhaps many of us, have different views about that. In today’s groupings there are amendments which address that issue of principle, and I hope that the noble Lord understands where some of us are coming from in that respect.
Lord True
I thank the noble Lord. I have seen his Amendment 81B, and obviously that implies the direction he is coming from, but I certainly do not want to be unhelpful to the Committee in any way. My objective, which the Government have now said is theirs as well, is to erase the principle of shadow mayors. However, I agree that the point of principle he has raised does merit discussion at some point in our proceedings. I will be as co-operative as I can, under advice.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, unfortunately these amendments were grouped and degrouped rather speedily overnight, so we were slightly surprised to see this morning where the degroupings were. However, I accept the fact that the noble Lord will want to deal with the referendum issue at the next stage. Is there an amendment to which he wants to return? Otherwise I will accept all the amendments I have already said that I would accept, and I will go through them quietly again. The noble Lord indicates that he does not have an amendment to which he wants to return. That being the case, within the groupings of the noble Lord, Lord True, I shall list which amendments I am willing to accept, and if there are any differences about that, we shall look at the issue again. The amendments are Amendments 62A, 66A, 69A, 69B, 69C, 73A, 74A, 75A, 77A, 77B, 79A, 81A, 84A, 84B, 84C, 84D, 87A, 87B, 87C, 87D, 108A and 187. In listing them, I repeat the undertaking that I gave at the outset of Committee to remove the provisions for mayoral management arrangements.
I shall deal finally with Amendment 56, to which I suspect the noble Lord will want to return at some stage. The amendment would remove the provisions about whether an elected mayor is to be treated as a member or councillor of a local authority. I am told that these provisions replicate those in the Local Government Act 2000, which put in place the default position that a mayor is not to be treated as a member or councillor unless regulations provide that they should be. I do not know which side of the bed we are now on, or whether we are getting into it or out of it, as the noble Lord has said, but the default position is already in regulations.
Lord Beecham
I am just anxious that we should not have senior officers of the authority clambering into the bed. It might be easier to deal with it in the way that I have described, but perhaps that can be looked at. If regulations already exist and the intention is to replicate them, that might serve. On the other hand, it may be simpler just to revert to the principle of treating the mayor for all purposes as a councillor. But we can look at that before Report.
Baroness Hanham
I thank the noble Lord for that. Unless I have not done something that I ought to have done, I ask that the amendments that I have listed be accepted and that the noble Lord withdraw Amendment 56 for the moment.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I guess that I am grateful to some extent for the Minister’s explanation, but I am not sure that her telling me that the provision is taken from a previous Act, which I already knew, necessarily explains more fully the issues which the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has referred to. I do not think that we will get very much further with this matter today, but we will need to look at it again.
We have a raft of amendments which the Government are supporting. They are in various different groups, which I think the Minister is struggling with—certainly, I am; I admit to that. I think that we are all struggling with it; we were all dealing with it in the middle of the night last night trying to understand it. When the Bill is eventually reprinted on Report, we will inevitably have to look at what is left in it and at what some of the consequences may be. We will undoubtedly return to it if necessary. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 56.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend Lady Scott of Needham Market, perhaps I may give a very short introduction to this group of amendments. I say at once that my noble friend has been as good as her word and put her name to the main amendment in the group, Amendment 57. She will no longer press the case for mayors and chief executives to combine their role. With this having been virtually outlawed in public companies, and with the idea of an independent chairman and a chief executive being quite separate, having become very nearly standard in major quoted companies, it would seem very odd that local authorities should be moving in the other direction. I am delighted that the Government have seen that that is not a very sensible way to go. I have the same difficulty as my noble friend Lord Tope in trying to find out exactly where we have got to. In moving this amendment, I hope that my noble friend on the Front Bench will be able to make all things clear. I beg to move.
Lord Tope
My Lords, my name, too, is on this amendment like that of my noble friend Lady Scott of Needham Market. Unfortunately my noble friend is unable to be here today—which I think she particularly regrets given the other names that have now been added to the amendment. I echo all that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, has said, and I am relieved to know that even with all his experience, he is possibly nearly as confused as I am about exactly where we are left with this, except that it is certainly in a much better place than it was a few days ago, which is welcome.
I understand now—in the proper spirit of localism, I suppose—that those mayors who are minded also to become chief executives, as I think is intended in Leicester, are at liberty to do so. I said at Second Reading that localism must mean the right to make the wrong decision. Therefore, I have to defend the right to make the wrong decision. There should be a clear difference between the role of an elected political leader and the role of a chief executive—I realise that we still have a head of paid service. A chief executive is usually, in theory, apolitical. There is a clear distinction and I regret the extent to which that is becoming blurred.
Once again I thank the Minister not only for her support for the amendment but for being willing and able to come out and say so at an early stage in the Bill. Like the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, I look forward to a clear exposition of exactly where we are, and what is and is not in the Bill, as we go forward.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I join this love fest with enthusiasm and congratulate not only the Minister on working this small miracle but other noble Lords—particularly the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, whose long experience and stature have no doubt contributed to bringing about a change of mind on the part of Ministers generally—on achieving this very satisfactory result to what would otherwise have been a very unfortunate situation. I am happy to endorse everything that has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, in thanking all those involved.
Lord True
My Lords, perhaps I may take a minute of the House’s time and speak now to the two other amendments in the group on which I lead and which have the same welcome effect, as noble Lords on all sides have said. I, too, repeat my salute to my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding and the Minister. The separation of mayor and chief executive is a good idea and we should maintain it. I am grateful to my noble friend.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I hope that we might be able to get back on track again without me having to swing round to make sure that I have done all the right things. We are happy to accept Amendment 57; I made clear my support for that previously in Committee. We recognise that there is great concern about the combination of the mayor and chief executive under the shadow arrangements and are content to support the amendment.
We are not quite so happy with Amendment 58 and I am going to reject it—I cannot see why, but I am. By the time we get round to the next stage I will have recovered my composure. I think that I was so taken by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, being so nice about me that I completely got underneath this. No doubt he will return to the issue at the next stage if he feels it necessary. In the mean time, I am not going to accept that amendment but have spoken to all the others.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. I am not sure that I can accept her reasoning for rejecting Amendment 58, which is also in my name—not least because I have been nice to her and about her for at least 21 years; she should be very well used to it by now. That is not a reason for being unable to give the reasons for rejecting the amendment. However, as I am moving Amendment 57 in this group, I beg leave to withdraw that amendment. No, I am sorry. I am so unused to this. I beg to move.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I have already moved Amendment 57. I had originally hoped that my noble friend Lady Scott of Needham Market would be here to move the amendment. We have had an exchange of e-mails and I am sorry to see that she is not. In those circumstances, I moved the amendment. I repeat, this is not so much a love fest as a return of common sense, and we are all delighted with that.
Lord Beecham
Lord Beecham
My Lords, this group of amendments relates to still more regulatory powers conferred on the Secretary of State, this time in connection with the mayoral position, however derived, in respect of terms of office and the like. The schedule gives the Secretary of State power to regulate the term of office of an elected mayor. I am asking, through the amendment, whether “the term” is used in the sense of a four-year or five-year term, or whether it also gives the Secretary of State power to limit the number of terms. For example, under the police reform Bill, there is a limit to the number of terms that a police commissioner can serve—if that cataclysmic proposal should reach the statute book—to two terms of four years. There is nothing in the Bill to suggest that that is the Government’s intention this time, but it would be welcome if we could have an indication that it was not intended to limit the number of terms for an elected mayor. I say that having served what would have been four and a bit terms, had that term applied to the leadership of the council in Newcastle. But I declare no interest whatever in being elected mayor of Newcastle. I make that very clear.
Amendment 65 refers to the wide-ranging powers in regulations and would restrict those necessary for the purposes of this part of the Bill. Amendment 66 relates to a curious provision on elections and their administration. Under subsection (5) of new Section 9HN, the Secretary of State may make regulations,
“exercisable … on, and in accordance with, a recommendation of the Electoral Commission”,
with a curious exception which I do not really understand. Perhaps the noble Baroness can help me, if not today then subsequently, because it goes on to say,
“except where the Secretary of State considers that it is expedient to exercise that power in consequence of changes in the value of money”.
I do not understand to what that relates. It might relate to election expenses, but it is certainly not clear from the section what it relates to, and a little elucidation would be extremely welcome.
Amendment 67 seeks to ensure that the exercise of the Secretary of State’s powers to regulate in this whole issue of elected mayors and their elections is subject to approval by the Houses of Parliament. These are matters going to the heart of the exercise of local democracy, and they should be subject to affirmative resolution.
I think that the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, will speak to Amendment 86. One particularly odd matter is covered by Amendment 87ZA, which curiously has the Secretary of State involved in the appointment of mayoral assistants. I cannot think why that should be the case. I recall once in Newcastle, when we had a twinning relationship with a city in China, their mayoral delegation came over and the mayor addressed the council. He went up to the dais and one of his retinue came up with his spectacle case, opened it and handed the mayor his spectacles. That seemed an interesting position to hold, and I thought I would indent for a spectacle bearer to the leader of the council, but in the end refrained from doing so. Presumably the Secretary of State would now get involved in such an appointment. It cannot be right, can it, for the Secretary of State to be making regulations for the appointment of a mayoral assistant? Perhaps the Minister can explain. If she cannot do so today—and I would not at all blame her—perhaps she might write to me and others of your Lordships on that point. I beg to move.
Lord Tope
I shall speak to Amendments 86 and 87 in this grouping. My noble friend Lord Shipley has unfortunately had to leave for an hour for another very important engagement, as things would have it at exactly the moment when his amendments come up, so I find myself once again in that position.
The amendments are fairly self-explanatory. They deal with the appointment by the elected mayor of a deputy mayor. Amendment 86 says that such an appointment should be subject to agreement by a majority of the executive. That is certainly desirable; the amendment would say that it was essential, and that would be quite proper given what the role of the deputy mayor could be.
Amendment 87 deals with a situation when there is a vacancy in the office of deputy mayor and the elected mayor has to appoint another person to be deputy mayor. There is no provision that that other person need be a member of the executive; therefore, it is even more important in those circumstances that the other person appointed by the deputy mayor should meet with the agreement of a majority of the executive. As the noble Lord, Lord Beecham said earlier in a slightly different context, any sensible mayor, like any sensible leader, would make sure that they did that. On the other hand, it is still a little easier to remove a leader if it is necessary than, quite rightly, to remove an elected mayor. Therefore, we feel that this provision should be in the Bill for the sake of good government.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Beecham’s comments on Amendment 64. I am not a supporter of term limits. I think that it is up to parties and their candidates, and then it is for the voters to tell them who they want to elect. If the Minister can give us some clarification about term limits, that would be useful.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for this little exchange. I will see what I can do. Amendment 64, as the noble Lord said, seeks to remove the power of the Secretary of State to make regulations changing the term of office of elected mayors. This is an important power that allows for transitional arrangements to be made following the first election of mayors. In October 2001, when a number of mayoral elections were held, the Secretary of State was able to vary the mayors’ terms of office so that the second elections were held in May, and in some local authority areas the mayor’s term was varied to enable the mayoral elections to be held at the same time as local government elections. We believe that it is important that this power, which has been available to the Government since 2000, is retained.
Amendment 65 is unnecessary as regulations made under new Section 9HN can relate only to the conduct of mayoral elections, and changes to electoral law or regulations cannot be made for any other purpose under this power.
The noble Lord has queried the provision at new Section 9HN(5). The Secretary of State is able to make regulations placing limitations on election expenses. However, in most cases he must do so only following a recommendation from the Electoral Commission. The only exception when a commission recommendation is not necessary is where the Secretary of State makes changes to any limits in line with inflation. That would mean an upgrading of the mayor’s election expenses owing to the fact that there had been inflation, which of course we do not have at the moment so it would not be necessary. The noble Lord asked what “money” relates to here. It means election expenses, which can be uprated by the Secretary of State. Again, this replicates provisions in the Local Government Act 2000.
Amendment 67 seeks to require regulations made by the Secretary of State under new Section 9ID on the election, terms of office and filling of vacancies of executive leaders to be subject to the affirmative procedure. We envisage that any regulations made under this section would be used for transitional purposes when a change in governance arrangements takes place. Furthermore, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, having completed its review of the Bill, is satisfied with the level of parliamentary scrutiny of regulations made under new Section 9ID. We are therefore not convinced that the existing arrangements in the 2000 Act, whereby such provisions have been subject to the negative procedure, should be changed. That remains the situation.
On the question of deputy mayors, Amendments 86 and 87, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, seek to require the mayor to gain the agreement of his or her cabinet when appointing their deputy mayor. The Government’s view is that the decision about who to appoint as their deputy mayor should be a decision for the mayor alone. It seems unnecessary for a directly elected mayor, accountable to the electorate of an entire local authority area, to have to seek the agreement of a cabinet, the members of which they themselves have appointed, to determine who the deputy mayor should be.
Amendment 87ZA seeks to remove an elected mayor’s ability, if he or she wishes, to appoint an assistant. Such assistants can currently fulfil a similar role to those carried out by political assistants to the main political groups on the council. Given the significant role that elected mayors play in their local communities—taking key strategic decisions, acting as ambassador for the area and facilitating effective partnerships are just part of what they do—then, in the same way as leaders are supported by political assistants, elected mayors will need an assistant to effectively carry out these roles. There are currently four independent and local authority mayors in England. As such, independent mayors are ineligible to have a political assistant who works only to the main political groups on the council. Amendment 87ZA may have the effect of leaving such mayors without any access to any political support or assistance.
However, we are not saying that an elected mayor must appoint an assistant. The appointment of a mayoral assistant is entirely optional and we would expect mayors to have regard to existing support structures within the council, both political and administrative, and its financial resources when reaching a decision on whether it is necessary to appoint an assistant. The Secretary of State has, of course, no involvement in a mayor’s appointment of an assistant.
I hope that these responses are helpful and will convince the House that these amendments are unnecessary and need not be pressed.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I move the amendment in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, and speak to Amendments 71 and 72.
The Bill will enable local authorities to return to a committee structure and, indeed, to be more free than they have been for some time to determine what governance structure they wish to have, and which best suits their particular circumstances. That is wholly to be welcomed. It is clear that the Government rightly believe that that should be a matter for the local authority in a local area rather than central government.
A number of local authorities are already working in anticipation to improve, in their eyes, their decision-making structure, particularly to enable all councillors to play a more effective part in decision making than many of us feel has been possible with the executive/scrutiny split. Indeed, I have for the past couple of months been chairing a working party for my own local authority, looking at exactly that. It proved rather more difficult than I had expected because most of my colleagues in my local authority do not remember the old committee system. They have grown up believing —rather mistakenly, in my view—that the executive/scrutiny split was the natural and normal way of doing things; whereas the old dinosaurs like me believe that there was once a rather better way that would leave them less frustrated than many of them are in their role on the local committees.
All of that is to be welcomed. On Monday evening, I will present these proposals to my council group in the hope that they will be acclaimed. However, I think that they will initially be met with some puzzlement: “Are we really there to make decisions?”. “Well, yes, there were another 44 of you elected who ought to have a part in the decision-making process, because that is what you were elected for”. Hopefully all of that will happen but, as things stand, I then have to break the news to them that, desirable though all this is, and much as though the Government are happy for all of this to happen, none of it can happen for another three years. The Bill says that none of this can be introduced until after the next elections. In the case of London boroughs, that is 2014. For those authorities that have only this year had whole-council elections it will be a further four years.
If the Government believe it is right for these things to happen, I can see no reason why, once an authority, through the proper process, has agreed what it wants to do, it should not implement that now. I hope that we shall have a sympathetic response from the Government. I shall not challenge the Minister to explain why she feels that in London—in her own authority perhaps—there needs to be a three-year gestation period, or in other areas a four-year period, while we all wait.
Some authorities, some quite well known to the Minister and some certainly known to me—it will possibly happen more so in my own authority—have de facto set up a committee system already. The committees meet and de facto make recommendations, but in fact the executive, as it is legally required to do, meets immediately afterwards for no more than five minutes simply to rubber-stamp decisions made by the committees. That must be a nonsense. At the moment, it is a necessary nonsense, as that is what the law requires, but for us to continue in that ridiculous state for another three or four years makes no sense at all.
I hope that the Minister will be able to accept our amendments—it would be an unusual victory for me to achieve—or at least be able to express sympathy with them and say that she will come back on Report with something to give effect to them. It is quite important that we get an indication that this will happen on Report, or that it will not happen, because many of us will be looking to implement the changes from the next annual council meeting in May. It so happens that my authority is well advanced with this but others may perhaps only just be starting to think about it or may not even yet have realised that they can think about the changes. I beg to move.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, we have sympathy with these amendments and look forward to the Minister's reply about why there should be this proposed three-year wait. The noble Lord, Lord Tope, talked with some affection about the committee structure. I was leader of Luton Borough Council at the time when we went from a committee structure to a leader and executive structure. My experience was that when you are in control, the leader and executive arrangement is particularly helpful. In 2003, we ended up with a hung council and, although we were the largest party, there was a Lib Dem-Conservative coalition which appointed Lib Dems to the executive. Being on the receiving end of that, we were somewhat less enthusiastic, but I still remain committed to it. I think that the best route is to have a leader and an executive.
One thing that was lost with the committee structure was the opportunity for new councillors, particularly younger councillors, to get involved with the cut and thrust of political debate because the structure and role of scrutiny committees are different. I think an opportunity to learn through that route and to have that debate was missed. We support the right for councils to choose and to revert to a committee structure, if that is what they want. On that basis, it seems that there is no great justification in waiting three years, but the Minister may be able to convince us. Subject to that, we support the amendments.
Lord Palmer of Childs Hill
My Lords, speaking as yet another dinosaur who remembers the old system and who was a councillor and is still a councillor in the London Borough of Barnet, I think that the proposal to allow local authorities to choose whether they return to the committee system is very welcome. The only thing I disagree with, and my noble friend Lord Tope obviously disagrees with, is that one has to wait three years before a local authority can make that decision. I cannot see the logic of that.
I have had the benefit of being a cabinet member, as they are called, in a joint administration in the London Borough of Barnet and I am currently an opposition member in that borough. When I was a cabinet member, one of 10 people exercising full executive power in the London Borough of Barnet, I enjoyed the power wonderfully. I used to give little speeches saying that democracy was not being exercised as 10 people had executive power but 53 people in the ruling parties and in the opposition had no real role to play and roles were found for them rather than their playing a constructive part, as they did under the committee system. Therefore, I have experience of being in power and in opposition and I still believe that the committee system is the right one. Under the system we are discussing, back-bench members in the ruling parties and in the opposition feel that they do not have much of a role to play.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Tope, made some very welcome points. Many years ago I was a councillor in the London Borough of Southwark. I left the council in 1994, so I experienced only the traditional committee system. Many years later as a Labour Party official I attended Labour group meetings at which many members said that they were not so keen on the present system and would prefer to go back to the committee system. My noble friend Lord McKenzie made an important point about younger councillors getting fully involved in the council’s business. It is not so easy for them to play a scrutiny role. I hope that the Minister will explain why the three-year period is necessary and why the relevant matters cannot be dealt with more quickly.
Lord True
My Lords, I do not want to prolong the philosophical discussion about which system is better but given the principles behind a Localism Bill, clearly the matter should be decided locally and as soon as possible. I am not speaking as a representative of London Councils, but the matter came up at a recent meeting of the leaders’ executive of London Councils and the leaders of all the parties unanimously agreed that they would like the Government to think again about this proposal. We hope that the amendment spoken to by my noble friends Lord Tope and Lord Palmer will gain favour in the Government’s eyes. I submit that what goes for London goes for authorities outside London as well.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I support this sensible and well drafted amendment; my noble friend understands that joke. I want to make two points. First, if councils are to be able to choose the system of governance that they want, let it not be too bound by lots more regulation. Councils used to exist before 2000 and operated committee systems. They did not have lots of statutory guidance, regulations and orders telling them how to run them. They do not need that. Councils can perfectly well set up committees and run sensible committee systems without lots of new regulations.
Secondly, let us not imagine that there was a wonderful era of local representative democracy before 2000, when local authorities everywhere used the committee system, and that it suddenly all went bad when we had to have the executive/scrutiny split, the appointment of leaders, and so on. Life is not and was not like that. In the past, there were councils that operated efficiently, openly and transparently, involved residents and carried out their duties sensibly and efficiently; and there were councils that were pretty hopeless. That has remained the case, even though their systems have changed. Surprise, surprise—those councils that were not so good before 2000 have been not so good since. Of course, councillors can improve and some go the other way but, by and large, it is simply not true that everything was wonderful before 2000 and that everything has been awful since. Different systems may well suit different types and sizes of councils, and the dispositions of different councillors.
I hope that my council will adopt a new committee system and abandon the executive/scrutiny split, although I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, that when you are in control of the council, the executive system allows you to do all sorts of things fairly quickly, and you can just get on and do it. Looking back on the five or six years during which we controlled my council and I was involved on the executive, I have to say that I am not terribly proud of the way in which we made some of the decisions out of the public gaze. Of course, they were all rubber-stamped in a proper and legal manner but, in practice, the decisions were made by a small group of people consisting of top councillors and officials who decided what we wanted to do. It may be that that was always the case and that it will happen under a committee system, but the importance of a committee system, as a noble Lord said earlier, is that the scrutiny process can take place at the time that the decision is being made in the committee. This is one of the real reasons for committees and for not having single-party executives making all the decisions.
I am sorry that the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, is not in her place. She and I were together on Lancashire County Council and we have discussed this in the past. I extolled the virtues of the committee system when it all changed to what I think is the appalling way in which that council now makes decisions, a large number of which are made by a single member of the executive—a cabinet member, portfolio member, or whatever they call themselves—sometimes meeting as a single-person committee, with all the officers and just one person in the middle making all the decisions. That is not the right way to do local government. The noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, would say, “Yes, but even under the committee system, when the Labour Party controlled the county council, the decision was made in the Labour group and very rarely changed”. I would say, “Yes, but occasionally it was changed, particularly when I stood up and pointed a few things out. You made a few changes”. The point is that the decisions were subject to debate and scrutiny in public at the time and at the moment they were being made. That does not happen under a lot of executive systems. The decisions we made on my council, when we were able to do so through the executive route, might have been better if we had had more people there challenging what we were saying and the workability of what we were doing, and persuading us to make some improvements. That is the advantage of the committee system.
However, I hope that people will not continue talking about “going back” to the committee system. We do not want to go back to the old committee system. We who hope that our councils will now move to a committee system want them to learn from the experience of the last 10 years and adopt some of the good things that have happened—scrutiny done well is very good. I know that many councils do not do scrutiny very well at all and that scrutiny committees are simply places to make back-bench councillors think that they actually have a job on the council, but scrutiny can be done very well indeed.
I am sorry that my noble friend Lady Hamwee is not here because she is an expert in scrutiny and would wax more lyrical about it than me. However, I hope that councils which are going to move forward to a new committee system—not an old dinosaur system—will keep the best parts of scrutiny because, done well, it has a role to play. What it does not do is the day-to-day, week-by-week scrutiny of decisions as they are taking place and that is why we want to go back to committees.
I say these things because this is the first time we have discussed the very welcome proposals by the Government to allow councils to make the choice, which some of us have argued for whenever it has come up in this House in the last 10 years. It is very welcome, the Government are to be congratulated, and I hope as many councils as feel it is sensible will go ahead with it.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, that was a short debate and I can probably give a reasonably short answer. We have some sympathy with the points that have been raised, particularly about the time that has to elapse before the changes can be implemented. I will not accept the amendment today but I am happy to take it away and consider whether those provisions are as good as they can be.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I think I am grateful for that reply, which I think was an encouraging one. I spent 13 years as leader of a council under a committee system. I stood down on the day that we adopted the executive/scrutiny split—not for that reason, but it was a convenient time to do so—and spent the subsequent 12 years as a member of the executive, so I have experience of both.
I am sorry that I led us into a debate on what the best system is. It was probably inevitable that we would have a debate on what the best system is and what our personal experiences are, but the noble Lord, Lord True, was absolutely right to remind us that that is not our business to debate today. Having rightly left local authorities to determine for themselves what system they want, the only decision for us on these amendments today is the date on which that can be implemented. That is the sole purpose of my amendments, whether they are perfectly drafted—as I am sure they must be—or whether there is something more or different that needs to be done.
I hope very much that the Minister can be as clear as possible that when we come back on Report we will have amendments, moved in whoever’s name, that will make absolutely clear that there is no need and that it makes no sense for local authorities which have whole-council elections to wait three or four years before implementing the changes that we say they should have the right to do. In hopeful anticipation, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Tope
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Shipley wished to move this amendment but, as I explained earlier, he has unfortunately, from my point of view, had to go to another engagement and will be there, I think, for another 15 minutes or so.
At a later stage of the Bill, we will probably spend a considerable amount of time discussing local referendums and the many issues that arise in connection with them. This is the first, and perhaps in some ways slightly premature, time that we come to this subject. Amendment 73 would raise the threshold for calling a referendum from 5 to 10 per cent of local government electors. We believe that 5 per cent is too low a figure. When we get to the later provisions, we will have a lot more to say about what the threshold should be and how we should get there, as well as other issues.
My noble friend Lord Shipley would have said that, if the need for a referendum is strong, there really should be more signatures to demonstrate that, and they should be easy to collect. I think we all recognise that the cost of a referendum, wherever it is conducted, is significant—it is not something that is simple to carry out. A whole range of matters has to be dealt with in conducting a referendum and, if it is to be done at significant cost, the need for it must be truly demonstrated. Public demand for it should be there, and 10 per cent—I would say at least 10 per cent—is a better figure because it balances the right to have a referendum, which is conferred under this legislation, with the need for it to be held and the implications of doing so. I beg to move.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, this is another example of possible misplacement in the groupings, for which I do not blame anyone. It is very difficult to get a perfectly rational system. In fact, I pay tribute to the officer of this House who works so hard, so long and so late in trying to make sense of my and other noble Lords’ belated efforts to table amendments. She does a wonderful job and I have every sympathy for her. At least she does not have to read my handwriting, which would make the task impossible and not just difficult.
In relation to the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, I certainly concur, as, I think, do these Benches, with the proposal for a higher threshold. However, I want to address the rest of the amendments in this group, which go to the critical question in relation to governance of whether there should be compulsory referendums at the diktat of the Secretary of State. The amendments that follow essentially relate to that.
The Minister has fortunately helped us by removing the conflation of the position of mayor and chief executive, and she has dealt with—perhaps liquidated—the position of shadow mayor. We are now left with this element of the compulsory referendum. In that respect, it is necessary to look at the whole question of the mayoral system—its provenance and development.
I was present at the meeting about 15 years ago when Tony Blair launched on an unsuspecting Labour Party, and an even more unsuspecting shadow Secretary of State in the person of Frank Dobson, the notion of an elected Mayor of London and, following that, the possibility of having elected mayors elsewhere. I took his motivation at face value. He thought—and others who have advocated this in the past have thought and currently think—that it would invigorate local democracy, improve turnout at local elections and enhance the accountability of local political leadership because the elected mayor would have a mandate from across the whole authority. That was the theory; let us look a little at the practice.
Bearing in mind that until now, and until the legislation changes, only 5 per cent of the electorate in any authority has been needed to requisition a referendum, there have been, I think, only 41 referendums, if one takes Leicester into account, in the 10 years in which this option has been open. One area has had second thoughts and has terminated its adoption of the system. Of the 40 referendums, 14 were in favour of an elected mayor and 26 against.
What is perhaps more significant is the turnout in the referendums and the turnout in the local elections. This, after all, was going to be the great advantage to local democracy of this new system. There have only been two referendum turnouts greater than 40 per cent and both of those took place on a general election day. Some referendums had turnouts of less than 20 per cent, 10 had between 20 and 30 percent, and 17 had between 30 and 40 per cent. The upper thirties is probably about average for a local election—by no means satisfactory, but self-evidently at least no worse, and in many cases better, than the turnout in these referendums. It is quite significant that the turnouts were also very low in the ensuing elections. Some of the referendum turnouts were abysmally low: Bedford had a turnout of 16 per cent; Lewisham had a turnout of 18 per cent; among the best were Hartlepool with 34 per cent and Torbay with 32 per cent. However, this does not give any grounds for saying that this is an enormously popular reform that people are rushing to adopt.
Nor has the turnout in elections been very much greater, even in London. The turnout in the first mayoral election in London was 37 per cent. In the second, there were two—how shall I put it?—charismatic or certainly very visible candidates, and an election that seemed to run for a year, such that every time I stepped out of a Tube station in London and saw an Evening Standard banner, it was always proclaiming something about Ken or Boris. It was impossible, even if one wished to, to escape the fact that there was a London mayoral election. However, even then, the point seems to have eluded 55 per cent of the London electorate. Again, there does not seem to be much evidence for the initial inspiration of this change: that it would improve—whether dramatically, modestly or even at all—the turnout in local elections or interest in local government.
The other arguments were about visibility and effectiveness. Many of the elected mayors have been capable people. In London, I can certainly cite three of them: Robin Wales in Newham; Steve Bullock in Lewisham, albeit with a referendum there of only 18 per cent and, I think, a mayoral election turnout of about the same, when he was first elected; and Jules Pipe in Hackney. All of them, incidentally, had been council leaders before they became elected mayors. However, what sort of alchemy is it that is necessary to transmute a council leader into a mayor? Or is it—and I hope the right reverend Prelate will not take exception to my analogy—some process of transubstantiation that transforms a less visible and accountable leader into an all-singing, all-dancing mayor with much enhanced visibility and effectiveness?
It was interesting that, in promoting the idea of elected mayors, the Labour Party saw fit to send a delegation to the Netherlands to see how this wonderful system was working. They slightly overlooked the fact that, in the Netherlands, mayors are in fact Crown appointees and not elected at all. Similarly, those who pointed to very successful continental mayors, such as the mayor of Barcelona, seem to overlook the fact that he was not personally directly elected—he was the leader of the largest group or faction in the Barcelona council. He was a very able—in fact a brilliant—local politician and extremely effective, but he but not directly elected. In our own politics, although I remember Tony Blair saying in a television broadcast, “The people of Britain elected me Prime Minister”, actually they did not. They certainly have not elected the present Prime Minister. That is not to disparage him; it is just a fact. Why should it be assumed that it is necessary to have that direct personal mandate to be a legitimate leader?
It is said that if authorities adopted the mayoral system, extra powers would be given and a certain amount has been given to mayors in that position. Yet the question arises that we discussed briefly at Second Reading and earlier in Committee: why should those powers be confined to the directly elected mayor, as opposed to the leader and executive model? There seems to be no particular rationale on that. One thinks of great local government figures of the past, from all parties: of Joseph Chamberlain in his initial, Liberal incarnation; of Neville Chamberlain, who was slightly dismissed by Lloyd George as a good mayor of Birmingham in a bad year but who nevertheless had a considerable local government reputation and, it is fair to say, did a lot for it as a Minister; or of Herbert Morrison, a great leader of local government; or, perhaps slightly more controversially, of one of my capable but slightly flawed predecessors as leader of Newcastle council, Dan Smith, who was nevertheless a hugely influential and creative figure, in the best sense, during his surprisingly brief period. People in all political parties have also been extremely effective. Why should it be assumed that council leaders are necessarily less visible, accountable or effective than elected mayors?
There are problems stemming from the system as it has been created, not simply because of the accretion of powers in a single pair of hands but because of the structure around that. It takes a two-thirds majority to overturn an elected mayor’s budget. Yet you can have a situation with an elected mayor from one party and a majority of the council from another. It has happened twice in the authority adjoining mine. It happened with a Labour mayor and a Tory council and it is now exactly the other way round, with a substantial Labour majority in North Tyneside and a Conservative mayor. That highly anomalous situation raises two questions. First, what is the other councillors’ role in that kind of situation? It has to be a substantially downgraded role from what we are used to and what is appropriate. Secondly, will there not come a day when people wonder, “What is the point of electing councillors at all, or of voting for a particular political party, if you are required to have at least two-thirds of the council to vote down a proposition from the mayor”? Most particularly, there is the most crucial decision of all: that about the budget. There are, it seems, real difficulties inherent in the system.
There is also a suspicion, certainly on this side of the Chamber—it may be in certain parts of the other side of the Chamber—about the current political motivation for this decision to take the power to require referendums to be held. I refer in particular to a speech made by the Member for Grantham and Stamford in another place, Nick Boles. He is, I suppose, a Tory intellectual. There are people unkind enough to think that term a bit of an oxymoron but I would not allege that in the case of Mr Boles, who is an extremely bright, intelligent and articulate man. Yet he said some time ago, apropos of this position about elected mayors, that it was the only way in which there would be a ladder back into power for the Conservative Party in places where its chances were pretty minimal. I think that he cited Manchester and other places where Conservative representation has been minimal, if not nil, for some time. I hope that is not the Government’s motivation and I would not for a moment imagine that the Minister would subscribe to that motivation, but others elsewhere might.
Lord True
My Lords, my noble friend might be disappointed that I rise at this point, but I gave her notice that I might do so at some point.
The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, made a very interesting and thoughtful intervention which I hope everyone in the House will reflect on. It is absolutely beyond doubt that the coalition agreement, and indeed my own party’s manifesto, made very clear that it wishes the mayoral principle to be extended further, specifically in the cities listed in the noble Lord’s amendment, and he has acknowledged that. From my point of view, therefore, it is absolutely clear that we should support and accept that, as I believe it has, in the traditional sense, a mandate. However, our own party’s manifesto, and the coalition agreement as I read it, did not go beyond that into extending the general principle.
There is at least scope for some discussion on this subject. I have an open mind on it, and I am open to be persuaded by my noble friend and others in the House. In the context of a localism Bill, it is a very strange concept that a Secretary of State of whatever political hue can in effect lift the telephone and say, “You’re going to have a mayoral arrangement in your authority”, even if there has been no clear localist wish for one. If people want a mayor and there is scope for one, and if a campaign for a mayor gains ground, there may be circumstances in which the Secretary of State might be tempted to wish that he had such a power, but I hope that over the next few weeks, while assuring my noble friend of my absolute support for the principles set out in the coalition agreement and in the manifesto, she might be prepared to reflect on whether the best way to advance even what you think is a good idea is to take the power to impose it potentially on the unwilling.
In some way or another we might be able to explore, in the traditions of this House, some way in which the absolute exercise of such potential power could be limited. My noble friend will be relieved to hear that I cannot support the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, but I hope that we can have some constructive engagement on this point.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I have one or two questions. First, what evidence do the Government or anyone else have that in these 11 cities, including Newcastle, Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool, Wakefield—the metropolitan district of Wakefield is technically a city, but is in fact a collection of towns, as I know well because I grew up there—Sheffield, Birmingham, Bristol, Coventry, Nottingham and Bradford—there is an overwhelming demand, or indeed any significant demand, in these places for an elected mayor? In the absence of such a demand, forcing a referendum on people that is likely to be rejected in the majority of these places—perhaps all but two or three places are likely to reject it, or perhaps they will all reject it—is an astonishing waste of money.
Secondly, can the Minister tell us how much it will cost to hold a referendum in each of these 11 places? Although I may have missed something, the only place I can recall where there was a significant campaign for an elected mayor was Liverpool. It was led by some high-profile people, some of whom were connected with broadcasting organisations. However, the campaign failed to get through the present system to requisition a referendum. It is clear that in each of these places it would be difficult to raise the 5 per cent of genuine signatures for a referendum. In those circumstances, it is extraordinary that in a Bill called “localism”, the Government are imposing from the centre their own version of how local democracy should work.
People might argue that an elected mayor is a more localist system than an elected council, council leader and so on. But it is difficult to see how they can argue that it is more localist. They might argue that it is more efficient, more effective or more exciting, or that more people will turn out to vote, although, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said, that is not likely. I wonder whether the Minister can tell us the criteria that the Government have used to make them think that this provision of top-down centralised instructions to people on the ground on how to run their cities fits in with a Bill called “localism”.
Thirdly, what evidence have the Government got that, in those places which have already got elected mayors, taking them as a whole, the system of local government is better than it was previously? There are places where the system is working very well. I would point, as I would anyway, to Watford, which has a Liberal Democrat mayor and a Liberal Democrat council, which helps a lot because they work closely together. But I suspect that, without an elected mayor but with a Liberal Democrat majority, the Liberal Democrat elected councillors and, thus, mayor would work together and would be a good council anyway.
I am not arguing that Liberal Democrat councils are always better than other councils. We all know perfectly well that, while we all pretend that our councils are better in different ways than everyone else’s, it is not always the case. As I keep saying, there are good councils and bad councils, and most councils are somewhere in-between, which goes right across the parties. They may have different approaches to things but in terms of whether they are good, bad, efficient, inefficient or whatever, it goes across the spectrum.
There are councils run well by mayors. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, mentioned some in London. There are also councils which may have elected mayors but do not run so well. Local politics and local administration in Stoke-on-Trent has been a basket case for some considerable time. Having an elected mayor made absolutely no difference. You could argue that it made it worse. Another example is Doncaster, another council which has not had a good reputation for being efficient, open, honest and all sorts of things over the years. It now has an elected English Democrat mayor. Does that make the administration in Doncaster any better? The Government do not think so because they keep putting people in Doncaster to sort it out and to run things.
There are places where the local political culture is conducive to being run efficiently, whichever party is running it. There are places where the local political culture is conducive to it being a shambles and very difficult for whoever is running it to sort out. There is no evidence whatever that those places with elected mayors are on average run any better or any worse than those without elected mayors. Surely, if the Government are going to impose things like this from the centre, it should be on the basis of the evidence. If it could be proved to me that imposing mayors on these 11 places would suddenly make them better run than they are, I would consider it, but I have to say that the big cities in England, taken as a whole, have been one of the success stories of local government and administration over the past 10 to 20 years. Not all of them by any means—I do not want to mention particular cities—but some have been outstandingly successful. That is under the present system, so why will having a mayor make a difference?
Unless we can be given some very clear evidence, this just seems to be policy developed on the whim of a few people at the top of and within the present Government. That is not a reason for supporting it. I accept that if something is in the coalition agreement, as a Liberal Democrat I start from the presumption that I will support it. Some things in the agreement are so important to the coalition, so crucial and critical, that even though I think they are completely bonkers, I will go through the right lobby in support of the Government. There have been certain constitutional issues recently where that has been the case. However, I do not believe that whether you have elected mayors in 11 places, or you have expensive referendums for elected mayors to decide whether to have them in London, are matters that are fundamental to the foundations of this coalition Government. So if the House of Lords booted it out or if it goes to a Division at any stage, I have to say to my own party and anyone else who wants to listen, I will find it very difficult indeed not to support the proposition.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is one that certainly deserves some study. It is clear that he has put a lot of thought into it and he spelt out the case very clearly. I have had a slightly chequered experience of the mayor in London, having been the Minister responsible for the legislation that abolished the GLC and leaving it, I have to say, in a pretty unsatisfactory arrangement afterwards. The previous Government picked it up and took through Parliament the Bill that established the Mayor of London. After Mr Livingstone’s election, we bumped into each other—where else?—in a television studio. I said to him, “Ken, I should congratulate you on a remarkable victory”. “Oh, Patrick”, he said, “you were responsible for it”. In a sense I was, since I had created the situation where the position of a mayor for Greater London was possible, particularly a mayor who in his earlier capacity as leader of the GLC I had had a considerable passage of arms with. He was therefore perfectly entitled to make that remark.
Having said that, the fact is that it has worked in London; it has been a very considerable success. I did not agree with most of the things that Mr Livingstone did as mayor, and I am much more supportive of his successor. But the fact is that Parliament set up a structure that works, and that is something of which London can be proud. Furthermore, it works alongside the far more ancient post of the lord mayor of London, which is a tribute to the wisdom of those who have held the two posts over the years. No one confuses the two, except perhaps some foreigners. But the fact is that no one in London is confused about the role of the Mayor of London and that of the lord mayor. Indeed, Londoners turn out in large numbers for the lord mayor’s procession because it is a tradition of which Londoners are very proud. The difficulty lies in pointing to examples of where it has worked elsewhere.
I have come to the conclusion that there is a temptation for us to imitate the continental pattern, where mayors of major cities have risen to considerable prominence—indeed, some of them have become Prime Ministers. On one occasion, I was a member of a consultative body with Raymond Barre, who made his great reputation as the mayor of Lyon. There are plenty of other examples: Mr Chirac was the mayor of Paris. I do not know whether Boris Johnson has any ambitions in that direction, but at the moment he is seeking to defend his seat in London as the mayor. However, we have not had that tradition. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, mentioned Joseph Chamberlain and Neville Chamberlain. In earlier decades, being a mayor may have been seen as a pathway to the highest post in government but, on the whole, we have not followed the continental example.
I said at Second Reading that I supported the proposal to encourage the election of more mayors. I made it very clear that I was totally against the proposition for shadow mayors and my noble friend Lady Hanham has already conceded that provisions for that are being removed—she has been as good as her word and signed the amendments on it. Curiously enough, the other point on which I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is that, despite our best endeavours and those of the excellent lady in the Government Whips Office who does the groupings, the groupings list is still not quite right, because my Amendment 82 is in this group, whereas it might well have been in the group following. It would be sensible for the moment just to discuss both groups together.
The Government have conceded that the proposals for shadow mayors have gone, but have proposed instead Amendment 81A, which my noble friends Lady Hanham and Lord Attlee have both signed. It leaves out the provisions for shadow mayors, but then goes on to insert:
“9N Referendum on change to mayor and cabinet executive … The Secretary of State may by order require a specified local authority to hold a referendum”.
I share some of the anxieties about that and cite only one example. It was a referendum not on a mayor but on an elected regional assembly in the north-east. It was where, apparently, the then Government thought they had the best chance of securing an elected regional assembly. In fact, despite their enormous efforts—virtually all the big guns from Westminster went to make the case in Newcastle and all around—they got, if I may put it crudely, a bloody nose. It was electorally for the then Government a disaster, and no further attempt has been made to establish by referendum an elected regional assembly. I do not want to put too fine a point on it, but the great majority of people do not have any allegiance to a region. They have county allegiances and they have a national allegiance, and they may have an allegiance to a town or a city, but a region is something which they do not relate to.
The other factor—I have to say that I have had family involvement here, which, to spare them embarrassment, I will not mention—is that the referendum’s having been imposed by the Government was a very good reason why the good people of the north-east said that they were not going to have anything to do with it. It was the imposition of a referendum which partially ensured its defeat. I am glad to see the Front Bench opposite nod on that.
That leads me to question, as did my noble friend Lord True, the wisdom of imposing referendums on a city for a mayor. I am not quite sure what is sought to be gained by this. I know that my noble friends have pointed to some of the very successful mayors—Barcelona is frequently mentioned—but I just question whether one can translate some of those continental examples to our big cities here in this country.
The city with which I had the most connection during my period of office as Environment Secretary was, of course, Liverpool. I inherited from my noble friends the rather unwelcome title of the Minister for Merseyside. It was the same election when the Militant tendency gained its supremacy in Liverpool and I had two extremely difficult years. My Prime Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, came up to see how I was getting on. She met some of the characters of Liverpool Council—and there was no meeting of minds. To my great relief she said, “Well, Patrick, I see what you are up against and we shall back you. But get on with it”. In the end, of course, it was a Labour leader who defeated the Militant tendency—it had to be. I had always said that only the Labour Party could do that; the Conservative Government could not. Liverpool is now becoming one of the most successful cities in the country. It has had a huge resurgence as the European City of Culture and a great deal else. I am not sure that it would have gained much by having a mayor—I do not know. When it was asked to, it did not elect a mayor, as has already been mentioned.
It has been an interesting discussion and I look forward to hearing what my noble friend has to say. I share the doubts about the wisdom of imposing a referendum on a city. The precedents are not encouraging —I have cited a couple of them—but my noble friend may well be able to persuade me. However, I sit down on a happier note: at least we are not going to have shadow mayors—and for that I am truly grateful.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, the amendment has excited a deal of interest. I wish to make it absolutely clear that we are not talking about imposing mayors on cities; we are talking about imposing a referendum. It is crucial that we do not get too exercised about the imposition of a certain form of government. We are saying that it is the coalition Government’s view that cities would benefit enormously from having a mayor; they would benefit democratically and from all the interests that a mayor brings and all the influence that a mayor can exert. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, who is obviously not totally behind us on this, has pointed to the success of the London Mayor. When we first saw that starting, I do not think any of us thought that it would be very effective. In fact, it has been under two separate Governments; it has raised the profile of London.
We are trying to give a similar profile to other cities or to give local people the opportunity to say whether they think that would be an appropriate form of government for their city. The only imposition will come from the requirement to hold a referendum, and that requirement will be introduced under this legislation.
We believe that the economic growth and prosperity of our larger cities is absolutely essential to the economic recovery of the country as a whole. If we do not have good economic situations in the cities, things will look very dismal. We believe that a mayor would promote extra economic growth.
The Institute of Governance and the Centre for Cities have highlighted in their recent joint report that cities are the heartbeat of the United Kingdom’s economy. I think we would all support that. Although they occupy less than 10 per cent of the United Kingdom’s land, they contribute 60 per cent to its economic output.
The Government believe that it is clear that mayors are right for every major city. We remain true to our localist credentials, and it is absolutely up to the citizens to decide whether their city will have an elected mayor or not. We think they should, and we will be doing our utmost to ensure that everyone has all the facts about how a mayor can benefit the city and do a good sales job for its businesses and the people who live and work there. But finally and ultimately, the decision will be theirs.
We are committed to this in the coalition agreement. I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, was going to go seriously off-message and he may indeed seriously be still off-message. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Tope, is not off-message, or all the other people who have signed up to this amendment. This is part and parcel of the coalition agreement that we should give local people in the larger cities in England a direct say on whether they want their city to have an elected mayor.
I know that local people can already petition for such a referendum. They can do it under previous legislation, and their elected representatives can decide, as they did in Leicester, where they have gone ahead of the game. There the council decided that the city should have a mayor, with the first mayor being elected there in May. We are convinced that the issue is now of pressing importance for the cities and for the country as a whole, and that people in the major cities should have a simpler, more immediate means for addressing the question. In short, as soon as practicable, people in each of the largest cities should have an opportunity of deciding whether they want an elected mayor. Some see this as central government imposition and “anti-localist”. We disagree completely with that. It will be for the local people to decide.
We have listed the cities, but the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, tabled Amendment 81B, where he wants specifically to have the cities named in the Bill. We will not agree to this, as it would have the effect of making the Bill hybrid, which would be a terrible mistake. Apart from that, even if that was not the situation, it would provide uncertainty, and I think that the House feels that that should be avoided. Given that the House will be asked to approve any order under Section 9, which is the order-making power, and we will have an opportunity to debate the merits of each city holding a referendum, I do not believe that it is necessary to set that out in primary legislation. I will certainly resist Amendment 81B.
I will be resisting the other amendments, including that on raising the threshold from 5 per cent to 10 per cent. In the cities, 5 per cent would be a very substantial proportion, and we should not make the hurdle any higher than that. As it is cities that we are talking about, we would not want to change that percentage.
I am not going to address each amendment. I have given an indication of why we believe that the mayoral referendum proposal should first of all come to this House and, if agreed, should go on to the cities to be carried out as soon as possible so we can have a decision and get on with having elections in the next year or the next 18 months. I thank noble Lords for their contributions but regret to say that I will not be accepting any of the amendments. I ask the noble Lord who moved the amendment to withdraw it.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her reply, which was almost precisely in the terms that I expected. I shall refer briefly to the interesting speech of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, who talked about the success of the mayoral system in London. Arguably, that is the case, but there were successful leaders of London before the mayoral system—Herbert Morrison has been cited but one could also cite Horace Cutler as a Conservative leader or indeed Ken Livingstone in his original incarnation.
I am not sure whether it was the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, or the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, that Ken Livingstone was referring to on one occasion when, on emerging from Marsham Street, as it then was, having had one of a series of meetings in the dark days of the 1980s when the GLC was at loggerheads with the Government, he was asked, “Why are you going to see him again?” and he replied, “I think he likes me for my body”. Whether it was the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, or the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, who said that, I am not entirely sure.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I assure the noble Lord that it was not me. I would also question whether or not it was my noble friend Lord Heseltine. It may be a bit apocryphal.
Lord Beecham
I recall seeing it on television at the time. At all events, the noble Lord refers to a continental pattern, but the continental pattern is actually very varied. He mentioned Barcelona but, as I pointed out, in Barcelona there is no direct election for mayor. There are direct elections or indirect elections in different places and, as I also indicated, there are places where the mayor or burgermeister is a Crown or state appointment. The proposition here is more American in its origins, rather like the unfortunate police commissioner proposal —and equally tainted, in the view of some of us.
The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, also referred to Liverpool. I well remember those days, and I remember the noble Lord going out of his way to be helpful to a very difficult group of people who, having managed to persuade him to make some concessions, then went extremely triumphalist at his expense and indeed may have caused him to move on from his job, an ill reward for a Minister who was doing his level best to help a difficult situation, but not one that surprised those of us who knew those with whom he was dealing. I recall a Sunday Times “Life in the Day” when Mr Hatton was talking about his family and how his daughter was very keen on horses. The article ended by saying that she liked nothing better than “to have a little trot around”, which seemed to me entirely appropriate. The noble Lord was extremely patient and forbearing, and those of us who remember him at that time acquired then and have since retained great respect for him and his style of politics.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
The noble Lord is being more than generous. I should point out that that most demanding of bodies, the 1922 Committee, had absolutely no doubt that I had been suborned by the leaders of Liverpool, and I had overwhelming support from that committee.
Lord Beecham
The noble Lord certainly deserved it.
The Minister talked about Amendment 81B as being out of place because it would provide uncertainty. On the contrary: the point of that amendment is to limit the operation of the imposed referendum—I accept entirely that an imposed referendum is what we are discussing, not an imposed mayoral system—to these 11 cases. If there is a technical problem with what is in effect a sunset clause dealing with that group of authorities, perhaps on Report we will have to recast it. I think that it is fair to say that it will be our intention to test the opinion of the House at that stage about whether it is right to press on with imposing referendums in the way that the Bill provides. We do not think that it is right to do so. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has raised a legitimate question about the cost, which will no doubt feature in any campaigns which have to take place.
One further point is something of a puzzle. The expression regarding the definition of these authorities was that they were the “11 largest cities”. Well, that is not the case. Assuming, for the moment, that some of them are in fact cities, there are others: the city of Sunderland has a larger population than Newcastle; Kirklees, a collection of Yorkshire towns, is also substantially larger than Newcastle; and there is Hull. I do not quite know the basis on which the 11 have been chosen. However, these are the lucky 11 that remain in the frame. We on this side of the House will do our best to see that the overall principle is rejected by the House and then, if not, that the mandatory exercise is confined to these 11 authorities.
Baroness Hanham
I will address two issues. I said that we were rejecting Amendment 74A. Of course, we are not; we have already accepted it. We were asked for the estimated cost of the mayoral referendums. It is about £2.6 million, and the department will bear the cost.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, the noble Baroness has a rather more pleasant duty to attend to in a few minutes when she goes to, presumably, the town hall in Kensington and Chelsea. We wish her well, and an enjoyable evening. We look forward to resuming the debate next week with the new freeman of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I will be very quick; we would not want the Minister to be late. She is quite right: I am totally off message on this issue as far as the coalition agreement is concerned. I am not off message as far as the coalition is concerned. The Government should learn. They have had a huge car crash, as people say nowadays, with the AV referendum; I voted loyally for that on every occasion and now I wish I had not. This will be another, in the modern phrase, car crash.
Whatever has been in coalition agreements and manifestos, there are times when, politically, Governments have to consider what is likely to happen. In most if not all these places, it seems likely that the Liberal Democrats will be campaigning vigorously against having an elected mayor—alongside the Labour party in many cases, and, I suspect, the Conservative party in so far as it still exists in some of these places; it certainly exists in some of them.
I am grateful for the information on the cost. I did not quite catch who was going to bear it. Was it central government? Yes. Well, a waste of public money is a waste of public money, whoever pays for it. I wonder whether the Government can direct me to some serious evidential basis for the view that having elected mayors provides better local government than would otherwise have been the case. I have not seen that evidence. There is lots of political and other argument about it, but I have seen no serious evidential basis for that proposition. If the Government have it, I would be grateful if they would make it available.
Lord Tope
My Lords, the Minister has warned me not to allow my noble friend Lord Greaves to let me stray off message. I have actually said nothing at all on the subject yet, and that might well be a message in itself. I am rather too mindful of the Minister’s immediate appointment elsewhere to take more time with this. I am struggling hard to resist the debate that has been held about the benefits of a London Mayor. Having been a member of the London Assembly for the entire reign of the first London Mayor, I can say that any strategic government for London has to be better than no strategic government for London. What none of us can know—so I will not bother to argue it—is whether another system of strategic government would have been as good, worse or better. At least, there could have been an alternative to an elected mayor, which has not been considered.
Lord Greaves
Perhaps my noble friend would pay attention to the point that having an elected mayor for Liverpool does not provide strategic government for Merseyside, and that having an elected mayor for Manchester does not provide strategic government for Greater Manchester, and that the same applies to Leeds and Bradford.
Lord Tope
He refused and it was one of his wisest decisions, because the person who requested him to do so did not distinguish himself in the interests of the Liberal party within a few years of that. I refer to our then party leader. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is probably too young to remember such an occasion in the 1970s.
I must get back to the point. The amendment relates to the threshold, and I am grateful that, in the end, the Minister paid some attention to it, because no one else has done so throughout the entire debate. Therefore, I have very little to reply to, except to say that we shall be returning to the issue of thresholds for referendums and so on at a later stage. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, as I spoke at length to the earlier amendment, I can deal with this extremely briefly. This amendment and Amendment 79, which are in my name and those of the noble Lords, Lord Best and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, are intended to be paving amendments to the substantive amendment which we discussed in the previous group, Amendment 82. My noble friend may wish to refer to some of the amendments to which she has put her name in this group. I beg to move.
Lord Beecham
I just want to confirm that the effect of the amendment is to remove the possibility of an authority being required to hold a referendum again within 10 years once a first referendum has rejected the idea of a mayor. I understand that to be the position, but having worked quite long and late on these matters, I was not entirely sure that my mind was sufficiently clear to appreciate that point. The Minister seems to be confirming that situation, which is eminently satisfactory.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, we had a long discussion on the previous amendment, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, says, and I think that that covered what has been raised here. I can confirm that Amendments 76 and 77 would prevent another referendum within 10 years. Therefore, I ask the noble Lord not to press Amendments 76, 77, 78 and 79. Government amendments have already been agreed to. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for his very kind remarks. I am off now to become a free woman.
Lord Best
I send the Minister on her way with further congratulations on the changes that have withdrawn the offending passages about shadow mayors. The top three in the Local Government Association’s long list of hopeful amendments include removal of the references to the combination of elected mayor and chief executive and removal of the issues around shadow mayors. That just leaves in our top three the question of EU fines, which will come up later. However, two out of three so far is extremely satisfactory and we are extremely grateful to the Minister for that.
Lord Howard of Rising
Lord Howard of Rising
Lord Howard of Rising
“9N Referendum on change to mayor and cabinet executive
The Secretary of State may by order require a specified local authority to hold a referendum on whether the authority should operate a mayor and cabinet executive.”
Lord Howard of Rising
Lord Howard of Rising
Lord Howard of Rising
Lord Greaves
Lord Greaves
My Lords, we have rightly just had a long debate about a major issue. In moving Amendment 88, I wish to speak also to Amendments 89, 90, 91, 92, 94, 95 and 96, with which it is grouped. Somebody who looked at them said to me that they were typical fiddly House of Lords amendments, by which I think they meant the kind of amendments that try to probe what is meant by the words set out in the Bill.
We are now on Chapter 4 of Part 1, which is about predetermination. Predetermination is a doctrine that I understand is well established in common law—that people making decisions in a public capacity have to keep an open mind and not close their minds and fetter their discretion before they make those decisions. That principle is vital in the law courts. Within local government that doctrine has really taken off in the past 10 or 15 years. I was a member of a local authority until 1998, when I decided to retire and find something else to do with my life. Until then, it was not something that people paid a great deal of attention to. In planning decisions, the area where the rules on predetermination have really taken hold, if there was a proposal for a new supermarket, councillors were free to campaign about it and election campaigns could involve people expressing their views. It did not stop councillors taking part in decisions.
When I went back to become a member of a local authority in 2004, the situation had substantially changed. I have been aware of that from discussions with people on local authorities since then. At that time, largely because of the decisions of the Local Government Ombudsman, particularly in planning applications, the concept of fettering one’s discretion had become a major factor. Councillors, particularly on planning committees, were warned that they must not express a view on an application before making a decision on it. On many authorities councillors were often told that they could not speak to objectors, residents or applicants—or, if they could, that they had to do so in an organised way in the presence of a planning officer. This whole doctrine has therefore taken over at least one major field of local government: planning.
Over the years many of us have taken the view that this has not only fettered people’s discretion on planning applications but prevented the proper operation of local democracy. We have had ridiculous situations whereby, in one rural town in the West Midlands, candidates from our party campaigned during an election against the one big issue in the town, a major town centre development, but when they were elected to the council they were told that they could not take part in discussions on it, otherwise they risked being hauled up before the standards regime or even being taken to court.
This provision is a welcome attempt by the Government to solve this problem and to put the weight back on the democratic side of the balance, at least as far as planning applications are concerned. That is not to say that people should not make the actual decisions in full knowledge of all the facts and having listened to all the arguments. They should be able to take a rational decision. However, it is ridiculous that on some of the most important proposals coming forward for decision in communities, councillors are prevented from expressing a view, and candidates at elections run the risk of finding that they cannot take part in those decisions if they had expressed a view during an election in which residents, not unreasonably, wanted to know what the candidates thought about the proposals and may well have voted on that basis.
The provision in the Bill is very welcome. However, the more that I read the details, the less I understand what some of it means. Because this whole area has been tied up in legal red tape, the wording has to be absolutely right. Amendment 88 probes why the words “to any extent” are in subsection (1)(b), and whether that weakens the provision. Either you have a closed mind or you do not have a closed mind. Of course, you might have a closed mind at 10 am, open it again at 11 am, and close it again at noon, but I do not understand what a “closed mind (to any extent)” actually means. It would be helpful to have some clear understanding of that.
I am not sure that I shall receive satisfactory answers on all these amendments. I may get wonderful answers this afternoon, but perhaps these are matters that require a clear explanation, perhaps in writing.
Amendment 89 asks what is meant by,
“or to have appeared to have had”
a closed mind. The question, as I understand it, is whether you had a closed mind. I do not understand why “appeared to have had” is relevant. Either a person had a closed mind or they did not have a closed mind on the facts of the case. I question what those words mean and why they are there.
Baroness Whitaker
My Lords, in rising to speak to this group of probing amendments, I want to ask the Minister one question. Anxiety has been expressed to me by the Gypsy and Traveller community that there is a risk that councillors could run campaigns and make decisions to remove unauthorised Gypsy and Traveller sites in an area, which of course is not in itself wrong, but they could do so without focusing on a long-term, sustainable solution to Gypsy and Traveller accommodation needs. Dale Farm springs to mind. Therefore, I should like to ask the Minister: if there is this risk, can he say what safeguards there will be against it?
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, I rise to do something which my noble friend on the Front Bench will regard as unusual, if not unique. In the absence of an opportunity to speak on whether the clause should stand part, I state that, although I am interested in the answers to the ingenious questions that my noble friend Lord Greaves has asked, I am principally concerned to declare my undying support for this clause, as I understand it.
I have already indicated that my wife has been chairman of Braintree District Council, is currently the cabinet minister for planning and strategy—I think that that is the right description—is on the planning committee and, indeed, represents me on Braintree District Council. Indeed, I even voted for her. When my wife became a district councillor for the second time about eight years and a few months ago, I could not believe it when I discovered what these predetermination rules were. Any MP would have had a fit if he had been told that he could not indicate to his constituents that he shared their view on a matter that was likely to come before Parliament and would vote accordingly. I think that I have the purport of this right. Noble Lords are indicating that I have. Why should councillors not be able to say to their constituents that they agree with them on a matter and that they will vote accordingly when it comes before the council? I cannot see the slightest merit in that position. I do not think that it is democratic or defensible and, if, as I understand it, this clause gets rid of it, I am in favour of the clause.
Lord Beecham
Surely the noble Lord thinks that there might be a distinction between a quasi-judicial function such as a planning or licensing matter and a matter of general policy.
Lord Newton of Braintree
I am made nervous by the intervention of the noble Lord because he knows much more about local government than I do, except in the indirect way that I have described. However, these are decisions of the local authority. I think I am right in saying that ultimately planning decisions could go to the whole council, although they are normally dealt with by the planning committee. Am I wrong on that? Some real issues arose towards the end of the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, concerning decisions delegated to officers by the planning committee.
However, I find it very odd. I know about the worries that underlie this sort of thing, but I make the point that planning decisions are often very, very important to local communities—I am thinking of things like supermarket applications and the like. It cannot be right that a councillor representing an area should not be allowed to express a view to his constituents that he then reflects in what he does on the council, or indeed the planning committee. If there is corruption involved, that is a different issue; but if it is a genuine view, formed on the basis of what constituents have put to him on the effects of that application on the neighbourhood, he should have the same right as a Member of Parliament in respect, for example, of an airport application, which is to express his views to his constituent and to reflect those views in his votes in the House.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I rise to speak to our amendment in this group, Amendment 96ZA, which calls for a review and report on the operation of the section and is framed really as a probing amendment. I support the probing that has been undertaken by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, because we are seeking to understand how much difference this provision will make to the status quo. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Newton, that his exposition of what he believes the current arrangement to be is not the full position, as I understand it. That is my understanding from a non-legal background, but I will try to come on to it and explain that point.
Views have been expressed to me that this clause provides a slippery slope that will potentially undermine the integrity of decision-making, especially on planning decisions, and will be a charter to allow bias. Others welcome the clause, as we have heard today, and consider that perhaps it does not go far enough, with some confusion around the term “closed mind”. In order to understand it, I have tried to set down a baseline to judge whether it has moved us on from the current position. Perhaps the Minister will take the opportunity to explain what this intended change will mean in practice.
As I understand it, the courts currently recognise two types of predetermination: actual predetermination and apparent predetermination—the latter is why the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, is pursuing the point about “to have appeared to have had”. Actual predetermination is where,
“a person has closed their mind to all considerations other than an already held view”.
That means that the exercise of a discretionary power where one or more of the decision-makers does not in fact exercise the discretion at all is unlawful as an abuse of that discretion. Apparent predetermination is where,
“the fair minded and well-informed observer, looking objectively at all the circumstances, considers that there is a real risk that one or more of the decision makers has refused even to consider a relevant argument or would refuse to consider a new argument”.
However, predetermination of course has to be distinguished from predisposition, where a councillor may hold a view for or against a particular development, say, but has an open mind as to the merits of an argument before making a final decision. There is a difference between predetermination and predisposition. The courts, as I understand it, have moved towards a more pragmatic approach in recent years. The Standards Board of England summarised the position in a rather helpful way—I think we will miss that body—so perhaps I can just read what it says are the practicalities of local government from the case law and what has happened to date. The Standards Board says:
“The courts have accepted that these practicalities mean that the fair minded and informed observer accepts that … Manifesto commitments and policy statements which are consistent with a preparedness to consider and weigh relevant factors when reaching the final decision, are examples of legitimate predisposition not predetermination … The fact that the member concerned has received relevant training and has agreed to be bound by a Code of Conduct is a consideration to which some weight can properly be attached when determining an issue of apparent predetermination … Previously expressed views on matters which arise for decision in the ordinary run of events are routine and councillors can be trusted, whatever their previously expressed views, to approach decision making with an open mind … To suspect predetermination because all members of a single political group have voted for it is an unwarranted interference with the democratic process … Councillors are likely to have and are entitled to have, a disposition in favour of particular decisions. An open mind is not an empty mind but it is ajar”.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I am pleased that we have been able to have this interesting debate. As the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has said, both case law and the Standards Boards have moved on this issue, but there has been a considerable degree of anxiety about it in local government service areas, as my noble friend Lord Newton said. I think the Committee will agree that that has not been in the interests of local democracy. That is why Clause 14 forms such an important part of this Bill and why we are bringing it forward, so I welcome the opportunity provided by this debate. My noble friend Lord Greaves has produced, if I may say so, a typical set of House of Lords probes, and I accept totally what he is seeking to do. I think it is the wish of the Committee that I should go through the amendments that he has tabled and make it clear what the particular wording means and why we consider it important that these little nuances are brought in.
I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, that nothing in this clause stops proper decision-making. Indeed, nothing in the provisions means that decisions are not going to be taken properly, having regard to all relevant considerations. On Gypsy and Traveller sites and the issues to which she referred specifically, I assure her that local authorities operate under fairly firm statutory guidance on provision for these matters. Any debate about this matter would have to be conducted in a proper fashion. In the end, councillors make decisions within that framework. We know that some people hold quite strong views on such issues. We accept that. In a democracy, we have to accept that people come with strong views. Whether they come with a closed mind is a different issue altogether.
I will come back to the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, but it might help if I first go through the amendments. Amendment 88 removes “(to any extent)”. We believe that by putting in “to any extent” we bring clarity to the issue. We are seeking to give councillors clarity that they should be fully entitled to the freedom to campaign on issues that are important to their local communities. There should be no suggestion in the drafting of this provision that there are degrees of having a closed mind that need to be taken into account when deciding whether this provision applies. That is why that phrase is in the clause. It is to make it absolutely clear that there is no degree of a closed mind that might be the subject of predetermination. If this amendment were accepted, the position on predetermination would be less clear for elected members and the public, which would defeat the whole purpose of this clause, which is to provide clarification on the current position.
Amendment 89 is an unnecessary drafting change. The phrase we are using here is taken from previous case law and provides clarity that a councillor is not to appear to have had a closed mind if they had previously campaigned on an issue. The fact that they may have campaigned on an issue does not necessarily mean that they are providing evidence that they appear to have a closed mind. This drafting seeks to provide clarity for councillors—we want them to be sure that they are doing the right thing, and we would all agree that councillors want to do the right thing—as well as judges and the courts. Indeed, the reason this is in the Bill is to provide some statutory law where so much has been dependent on case law.
On Amendment 90, the word “just” in this sentence indicates more clearly the function the provision is performing, which is excluding certain conditions from the judgment to be made about whether someone had a closed mind. Read literally, without the word “just” the sentence could mean that any decision-maker doing something that indicates the view that they will take is automatically considered not to have a closed mind, so the inclusion of the word “just” avoids the potential for this misinterpretation, which would lead to a result that we do not want. The word “just” therefore defines the matter more clearly.
Amendment 91 would narrow the range of councillors’ activities that we are seeking to ensure cannot lead to accusations of a councillor having a closed mind. Our current drafting makes it clear that if a decision-maker had previously “done anything” that indicated what view they took on an issue, they would not as a result be considered to have a closed mind. I reassure my noble friend that we fully intend the phrase “done anything” to include anything that a member may have said, written, or perhaps even held aloft on a placard. The amendment is therefore unnecessary.
On Amendments 92, 95 and 96, the legislation has been written to apply to elected, co-opted and other members of councils. There is no need for the provisions to be extended to paid officers in local councils. I assure my noble friend that separate rules are in place for dealing with officer bias in decision-making. This clause is not designed to address officer bias. The definition referred to in Amendments 95 and 96 of the type of decisions covered by these provisions does, however, need to include this reference to functions of an officer of the authority, because certain officer decisions are exercised by elected or co-opted members of the council for technical reasons; some of the functions carried out by elected mayors, the chairman of an authority, and leader of an executive are regarded as functions of officers of the authority.
On Amendment 94, we do not accept that this distinction should be made between the role of a co-opted member on a committee of the authority and the role of a co-opted member on a joint committee. Co-opted members of a committee of an authority would be free to express a view or campaign on an issue without being at risk of being unfairly accused of predetermination, but co-opted members of a joint committee would not. There are certainly instances in which co-opted members can sit on joint committees, and there is no reason to suppose that they will be any less capable of reaching a fair decision—something that lies at the heart of all of this—when sitting on a single-authority committee.
Amendment 96ZA makes a perfectly reasonable suggestion, but I refer noble Lords to our published impact assessment of these clauses. The impact assessment states that there will be a full policy-implementation review of the whole Localism Bill, including the policies on predetermination. That will provide all the information that I believe the noble Lord is looking for in this amendment, so I hope that when the time comes the noble Lord will not press his amendment.
The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked whether, if as a matter of fact a councillor had a closed mind, the councillor could participate in a decision, what evidence would be used to determine that he had a closed mind and how this would be affected by the proposal in Clause 14. If a councillor is actually biased, he cannot participate in a decision; evidence of a closed mind could be that he has declared that he has a closed mind or that he refuses to listen to any new arguments. In reality, if a councillor says that he is not prepared to listen to any arguments and is self-evidently not prepared to do his duty by doing so, as we would all expect local government to do in a democracy, he would self-evidently be saying that he had a closed mind.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I understand and take that point. But if you had someone who declared that they had a closed mind, is not the import of subsection (2) that, if they declared that at any point up to the time when the decision was made, it would be ignored? That is what the provision says. If that is right, how do you adduce the fact that someone has a closed mind? That is what I am struggling with. We accept that, if you have got a closed mind, you should not be involved and that decisions could be unlawful. If people have room to review the facts, that is fine. But my concern is what evidence you would now get. Prior to this, if someone had said, “I have got a closed mind” and there was surrounding evidence to that effect, it would be clear where we are. But under this proposal, you have to ignore what someone has done. What someone has done is what they have said, what they have written and the banners that they may hold aloft. How does the Minister square that issue?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, the situation, as I understand it, is that statements made prior to a decision being made in the period in which a campaign or a discussion is being held should be evidence that a councillor may have a strong opinion, but that does not necessarily prejudice the decision that they are going to make. But if they say at the time that they are making a decision that they have a closed mind, they should not participate in that decision. The practicalities of this are to put pressure on all councillors, however passionate they are about an issue, to consider their position before they vote as to whether they have genuinely considered alternatives that are presented to them. In which case, as long as they have done that, this clause means that in no way can they be considered to have had a closed mind if they have done that in all conscience. This is designed to provide a framework of behaviour in local government, which I am sure that the noble Lord would seek to encourage.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
It is important that we get to the core of this. From what the noble Lord is saying, is it the case that if someone said every day of the week for two months leading up to the decision that they have a closed mind, that would be ignored under these provisions and that if they did not say, “I have a closed mind” on the day on which the decision is made, there is no difficulty?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
It is fair to say that anyone who did not say that they were considering the matter with a fair consideration of the argument might well be in some difficulty. But what is disregarded by this clause is that evidence of the view that a person takes of a matter is not evidence of their state of mind when they are making that decision. It is important to understand that this is designed to enforce an openness of mind at the point of decision-making, which, after all, was always the purpose of predetermination.
The problem with predetermination was that it excluded people who had campaigned and, as my noble friend Lord Newton in his helpful contribution pointed out, the difficulty that a lot of local councillors had was knowing to what extent they could participate in the decision-making process if they had campaigned strongly on an issue. All this now does is say to a local councillor, “However hard you have campaigned on an issue, you should still make decisions without a closed mind or not participate in that decision”. But that is for the councillor himself to determine, rather than be determined by this clause.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister and I am sorry to have interrupted him on two or three occasions, but this is a very important issue. We accept the anxiety in local government about what councillors can and cannot do, and the importance, as the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, said, of the democratic component of this so that people are not precluded from campaigning on issues they feel strongly about. But that is the position at the moment, for as long as their minds are ajar.
Sometimes very cautious advice is given and therefore people tend to be more restricted than the law may otherwise allow, but notwithstanding all that—I think we have common cause in what we see as a proper outcome in this, so that if you have a closed mind or you are going to be involved in a decision, you should be able to judge the facts objectively and not predetermine the matter—I still see a difficulty in this provision. That is because I cannot see how you would ever get evidence of someone having a closed mind on the basis of this provision. It seems that you would have to ignore what they had said and done and campaigned around right up to the point when they make the decision. That seems to me to be an anomaly and I am still not sure where it leaves us.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, I am so encouraged and enthused by being described as helpful by my noble friend on the Front Bench—for the first time in a long time, perhaps even uniquely—that I feel the need to intervene again. I agree to some extent with what the noble Lord has just said, but my concern is that, in all honesty, I feel as though I have strayed into wonderland or into a bit of my philosophy course when I read PPE some 50 years ago. This distinction between predisposition and predetermination is like angels dancing on the head of a pin. As a councillor, you would have to be mad not to say, if you wanted to have any effect at all, that while you had had a view, you had looked at the new evidence and it had not changed your predisposition. That would not amount to predetermination. The whole thing is complete nonsense.
My concern is that it leads to a fracture in the relationship between councillors and their constituents. They have to fence with issues, pretending that they do not have a view, or telling their constituents that they do not have a view or dare not have a view because it might affect their ability to vote. That will not be understood by any ordinary person. Councillors are elected to represent people and in relation to their views. Indeed, in some circumstances they may want to express a view. This is daft, and MPs would not put up with it.
Let us take the example of Stansted, which I think has been the subject of votes in Parliament. The MP for Saffron Walden, my neighbouring constituency in the old days, was against it and would no doubt vote against it. In Braintree I was cautious because I was in favour of Stansted, but not all my constituents were, so I did keep my head down a bit. But if I had been against it, I would have been appalled if I could not have said so and then voted in Parliament. If my noble friend has a chance to say another word, can he say why things should be different for councillors from how they are for Members of Parliament? I can see no answer to that.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
As I understand it, the impact of this clause will make it clear that individuals can campaign as you would want, but I hang on to the point that for as long as they leave open the possibility of a change of mind in due course, having examined the facts and merits of a case, they are not precluded from campaigning at the moment either. That is why I am seeking to probe just how much difference this clause makes.
Lord Newton of Braintree
I understand that, but reference was made to Mr Justice Andrew Collins, a great and good man. However, I would not want to be the judge who had to distinguish between predisposition and predetermination in circumstances where the person involved denied predetermination. You would have to be a mind reader, so it is not sensible.
Lord Hart of Chilton
I want to make just one contribution to this fascinating debate. The arguments alleging bias are few and far between and almost invariably fail, for the reason that the noble Lord, Lord Newton, gave; that is, it is almost impossible to get to the bottom of whether somebody is biased. The issue here, however, is that, in relation to a planning application, councillors are charged with giving full consideration to all material factors and the local plan, and reaching a decision in the light of the officer’s report that they have received. This is not to preclude councillors saying whatever they want and they can campaign until the cows come home on particular issues, but here we are talking about a particular councillor considering a planning application. Any councillor can go the planning committee, make representations and argue the merits of a case, but we are concerned here with a decision-maker who has said unequivocally that he is on all accounts against a proposal. It does not matter what he has heard; he will be voting against. In those circumstances, how can that person, sitting there and evaluating the application, be deemed to be fulfilling his duty to give due consideration to the application before him? The words rather indicate that, from now on, this will be a bias charter. Those who wish to campaign in that way will always then have a defence, saying, “You cannot indicate that any of the things that I said up to the moment of the application being considered is evidence of bias”. It will now make situations where bias was always difficult to prove almost impossible. Bias in relation to an application considered by councillors is not a proper course to take.
Lord Beecham
I recall at Second Reading the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, speaking very passionately about how one needs to respond to constituents. The assumption is that a councillor will always be on the side of his constituents, but that may not be the case. A councillor may decide that a particular project—let us say, an application for a bail hostel or something of that kind—is one that he, having heard the evidence, would want to support. It might be an incinerator or an abattoir, which may not play terribly well with his constituents. How would those constituents feel, as opposed to the commercial developer who might be the applicant—which is assumed normally to be the case—if they believed that their councillor had made up his mind in favour of something that they did not want without being open to persuasion and hearing their arguments and representations at the decision-making meeting? If one takes that point of view into account, one has the grave concerns which both my noble friends have advanced and which require detailed consideration by the time we get to Report. This is not a one-way street. We have to be very careful about how we might seek to change the balance within what is, as I implied in my earlier intervention, a quasi-judicial function. It is about only those that I think we are concerned.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The noble Lord has degrouped amendments which address that issue; perhaps we will come on to that matter later. The failure of an elected politician to fulfil the wishes of their constituents or to fail to respond properly to their wishes cannot be legislated for; the solution lies in the electoral process, at a subsequent general election. The illustration that the noble Lord used could not be covered by legislation in any way that he would have wished.
I believe that we have satisfactorily demonstrated that the purpose of this clause is to clarify the position of elected councillors to make it possible for them to campaign and engage fully with their local communities on issues which concern them without inadvertently—as has been the case in the past—excluding themselves from the decision-making process by doing so. That is why this is a great step forward and why it is in the Bill.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, as I said at the beginning, I should make it absolutely clear that I support what the Government are trying to do. The noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree, suggested that this was wonderland—and to some extent it is—but the debate has shown that there are a number of very important issues involved.
When I table fiddly, legalistic House of Lords-type amendments such as this, I always do so with a certain amount of fear that when I move them I shall be denounced around the Committee for wasting everybody’s time, but we have spent almost an hour debating this amendment. The debate has varied from a discussion of what the two particular words mean right through to the general principles. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, made a useful speech which took us through the general principles, the issues and the problems. The debate has shown that this provision perhaps needs a little more careful attention before we leave it in the Bill.
A noble Lord referred to the question of predetermination. One of the problems for local government is that this issue does not derive from any statute that I know about but from common law. It has developed over the past 15 years as a result of complaints and rulings from the Local Government Ombudsman, the Standards Board for England and some court cases.
We are talking about planning here more than anything else. When you are dealing with applicants who put in for planning permission—certain large supermarkets and so on—one of the problems is that it is very easy indeed for a council to end up in court. This can cost a great deal of money and councillors being hung out to dry. It is difficult and I hope that what the Government are trying to do will clarify the situation.
I do not want to see reams of regulations and statutory guidance on this but clear advice will have to be given to local councillors, particularly those on planning committees. That would be extremely useful. On councils such as mine, where the area committees are the planning committee for their area, every member of the council is a member of the planning committee. It affects everyone and they cannot hide behind what councils with very small planning committees do. They cannot say that certain councillors are insulated from the campaigning but everyone else can campaign; on my council, every councillor is a planning councillor on a planning committee and takes development control decisions every month.
There are ways of getting round it. I always say to developers, “Yes, I will meet you. I am not going to be hidebound and say that we do not generally agree to this. I am going to be careful what I say to you and you must be very clear that I shall look at all the issues. I represent people who are against what you are doing—indeed, I may represent you—but I shall listen to you. When the application comes to the committee I shall make a rational decision, but I cannot tell you now what that decision is going to be”.
It is more difficult when you are talking to angry constituents but there are ways and means of saying things. I could say, “Look, I cannot promise—I am not allowed to—that I will support you at the committee. I suggest that you come along to the committee, see what I do and then make your own mind up”. Even then sometimes I do not vote the way they want me to—but there we go. That is life. It has all happened in the last 15 years with regard to planning, but I do not believe that the planning system was hopeless before that all started, and this may get us back towards that. I ask the Government to issue clear advice and guidance to local councillors. It would be extremely helpful if somebody could produce a draft of that advice to councillors, based on what is in this legislation, before we get to Report. If the Government are able to do that, it will clarify a very great deal of the effect that the Government think it will have—not in all these legalistic worlds, but what ordinary councillors on the ground are going to be told they can and cannot do.
I offer that advice to the Government. Meanwhile, I said these were typical House of Lords amendments, and I thank my noble friend Lord Taylor for giving a typical House of Lords response to them, some of which I am satisfied with and some of which I did not quite understand on the spur of it. I will spend a typical House of Lords weekend reading Hansard to try to understand it. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Greaves
“( ) This section does not apply to decisions made under a local authority’s licensing functions which relate to—
(a) the suitability of an individual to hold a personal licence, or(b) the personal and private circumstances of any individual.”
Lord Greaves
My Lords, this is a substantive issue, which affects licensing. There is an important point here that needs addressing. I have no idea what the Minister will say in response to this, but perhaps some thought needs putting into it. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, said there was a clear distinction between quasi-judicial decisions and general policy. There is always an argument as to how quasi-judicial planning is, but there are some licensing functions which nobody can possibly argue are not quasi-judicial—not least because it is not very long since they were actually dealt with in the magistrates’ courts. One of the Local Government Acts—I think it is the 2007 one, but I am not sure—transferred the function of granting permission and licences from the courts to the local authority.
In my experience, there are two main areas. There are licence applications for events and entertainments. If you want to run a cinema or theatre or you want a temporary licence for a big shindig in the park, or whatever it is, you have to apply to the local authority for a licence. There are alcohol licences, as well as licences for premises, pubs, clubs and retail premises—for new ones and for changes and extensions to existing ones. Then there are occasions when there might be objections from the police to an existing situation where the question of revocation or restriction of the licence is considered. All those things are matters of public policy. They are not huge, overriding policies and will never be in a manifesto, but the question of whether a particular premise is a suitable place to be a pub or club is general policy. The question of whether alcohol should be sold from particular retail premises is a matter of policy and ought to be treated as policy. The removal of predetermination restrictions should apply to that. But if you are dealing with the question of whether a particular individual is a suitable, fit and proper person to hold an alcohol licence in any of those circumstances, that is not policy. Under those circumstances, judicial rules really have to apply, and you cannot possibly have people going round saying, “That man is a rogue”, or, “That man did my sister down”, or whatever it is, “and therefore I am going to vote against him having a licence”. Members of the licensing committee have to be trained, they have to carry out proper procedures, the whole thing has to be done by due process and it is a matter of whether an individual is a fit and proper person.
The other area is taxi licences for operators, drivers and so on. Again, these are matters that refer to a particular individual and to whether that person is an appropriate person to drive a taxi and carry a member of the public around, or whether they are an appropriate person to run a taxi business. The question of whether premises are suitable to be taxi offices is probably a planning decision rather than a licensing decision. That is public policy, in my view, and it is entirely reasonable that you should be able to go around an area meeting people who are concerned, or even campaigning, about it. The question about whether Joe Bloggs or whoever is a suitable person to run a taxi business or to drive a taxi is like the situation with alcohol licences: they are not questions that councillors should go around debating in public, or in private before the meetings. They are there as if they are magistrates, considering on the facts and the evidence, usually on the advice of the police, whether or not these people are suitable. There is a specific case there where the predetermination rules should be applied, and strictly. The purpose of moving this amendment is to probe the Government’s thinking on this issue. I beg to move.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I will be brief. I am not unsympathetic to the noble Lord’s amendment but I am not sure that I agree with the basis on which he proposes it. I think that he is distinguishing some circumstances where predetermination can be dispensed with from others where it should not. Without reopening the arguments that we have just been through, I do not believe that that is the import of Clause 14. In a sense, we are still awaiting the definitive government view on that. The issues around predetermination ought to run throughout the decision-making process. It is not quasi-judicial planning issues; there are lots of other decisions that councillors may make. As I understand it, if they have discretion on decisions, it must be real discretion. If they have pre-empted it by predetermination, there is the prospect that that decision will be unlawful, whatever area of decision-making is involved. However, I would not particularly disagree with taking those licensing operations outside the provisions of Clause 14.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, for temporarily forgetting that he is on the opposition Benches and not the government Benches and, in effect, making the case that the Government will be making to my noble friend Lord Greaves. On this issue, I am afraid that I beg to differ with my noble friend.
I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham; I imputed this set of amendments to him and not to my noble friend when we were discussing the previous grouping. It probably rather shook him to discover that he was the author of a set of amendments that he had not actually been involved with.
On Amendment 93, it might help to clarify just how radical the change is. I hope to provide some reassurance with what I am going to say. The Government’s view is that an elected member is equally able to listen to arguments and evidence and come to a fair decision on what my noble friend has referred to as a personal licensing matter as he is on any other licensing matter. That means that there is no justification for leaving unclear the circumstances that mean that a councillor has to withdraw from participating in any licensing decision process. That lack of clarity arises from the fact that we as a Government do not accept the distinction being drawn here between what a councillor can say about a decision relating to a personal licence and what they can say about a decision on any other licensing matter. We strongly believe—this is at the heart of our policy on predetermination—that councillors should no longer be restricted in which of their opinions they are free to express to the communities that they are elected to represent. Councillors, like any other individuals, will have regard to laws on libel and data protection when discussing individual circumstances or information which they may hold. However, it would be wrong to restrict them in this way from commenting on what may be a matter of great interest to their constituents.
I ask my noble friend to withdraw the amendment. I am afraid that the Government are not prepared to see these as exceptional circumstances from the general principle of predetermination and the freedom of councillors to express their view prior to making a decision.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I had hoped that the Government might take a rather different view on this. Having listened carefully to what the Minister has said, I am now even more convinced that I am right and they are wrong. The Minister referred to libel and data protection. I am not sure that either has much to do with it. Data protection would come into it with personal details being divulged to whichever licensing committee it was, which are private and should not be made public. If councillors made them public, they would be liable for it.
However, that is not at all the point that I am making. For example, there could be two rival taxi businesses in a community. The taxi business is fairly cut-throat. People do not make a great deal of profit and work very long hours. There are attempts to do the other side down, perhaps in a legal way. One faction is larger than the other and gets to the councillor who happens to be on the licensing committee. They say, “We do not want you to give a taxi operating licence to this person or taxi driver licences to these people, because they will be able to expand their operation and compete with us. We will find it more difficult”. These are personal applications. It would be outrageous if that councillor went around saying, “Yes, I will block the personal applications for taxi driving or operating licences from this or that person”, before the meeting. Councillors should be banned from saying things like that. Any councillor who goes around making such promises should be banned from taking part in the decision.
These decisions, particularly the alcohol decision, were until recently made in magistrates’ courts. Can you imagine a magistrate being in that position: going around and promising a community that they will block a particular person from taking over a pub and being the licensee because that community wants somebody from that community who it favours? Imagine the pub is in the middle of a big estate, and the estate has somebody who they would like to take over the pub, but the owners have an alternative in mind. To go around campaigning against that person getting a licence to run that pub would be absolutely disgraceful. It should be banned by law.
The more I listen to the Minister, the more I am absolutely convinced that I have raised a genuine problem. I disagreed with the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton. He was saying that he wanted everybody to be treated the same, but he wanted it to be more restrictive for everybody. The Bill says that predetermination —I keep wanting to say “predestination”, but that is not quite it—should be abolished for everybody. I am not suggesting that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, is saying that, but it is what the Government are effectively saying.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I do not think that that is what the Bill is saying. If predetermination equals a closed mind—I was trying to get an answer from the Minister earlier—and if predetermination as a concept is abolished, then there are very serious issues, particularly on planning and licensing arrangements, on which the noble Lord touched. That is the point I make about predetermination.
Lord Greaves
Yes, I accept that. I accept that there is a difference. It seems to me that there is a difference between the Government’s rhetoric and what they are saying will happen: that councillors will be freed from the kind of constraints that the wife of the noble Lord, Lord Newton, found, and which I found when I got back on the council. I think that relates to the probing that the noble Lord has usefully undertaken in the past hour or so, but there is no doubt that the regime will be more liberal than at present. We are probing what it will be exactly. The noble Lord said that it will be very radical and that perhaps we were not appreciating how radical it will be.
In general, I am fairly happy with that. However, I am not happy, and I suggest noble Lords should not be happy, about how it applies to applications for personal licences by individuals where they may be seen as controversial in the community. There may be other incidences as well. Let us look at an alternative. In a fairly built-up area, there are two corner shops which do not have alcohol licences but one of them applies for such a licence and the other one objects. The shop owner who objects could have lots of friends in the community who will instigate a petition, saying that the other shop owner should not have a licence. The motivation will be competition, not that the shop owner has spent the past five years in jail or is a fraudster or is generally unsuitable; it is simply competitive rivalry. As a result, the friends persuade a councillor with whom they have close connections, and who happens to be on the licensing committee, to oppose the licence. They hold a public meeting and present a petition. Surely that should not be allowed and yet, as I understand it, that kind of thing would be allowed under the new regime that the Government propose.
There is an important and serious issue here. I ask the Government to take the matter more seriously and to take more legal advice on it. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Beecham
Lord Beecham
My Lords, this is the first in a series of amendments on the position of standards committees. A small number of us might like to have seen the Standards Board preserved, but clearly that will not happen. The focus of this amendment and subsequent amendments, which will be moved by other noble Lords, is on the preservation of standards committees in councils. This amendment deals with the position on page 256 of the Bill of authorities which currently have such committees and it would amend the previous legislation to omit most, if not all, of those listed. It is probably an accident of grouping that it appears here rather than with Amendment 97, to which I have added my name and which the noble Lord, Lord Tope, will move. I assume that the noble Baroness will not be here. I apologise to your Lordships for the fact that if we go more than a few minutes past seven o’clock, I will not be here either because I need to get back to my home in the north tonight. In case that eventuality arises, I add my strong support to the requirement for standards committees to be preserved. We need a mechanism in councils that is independently chaired—other amendments go into the detail of how such a procedure might work—to retain the confidence of the public in the standards to be observed by those who represent them locally. I hope that it will not be the same as the standards regime in another place but experience suggests that there is a need for a properly constructed scheme under which complaints can be ventilated and dealt with speedily, locally and impartially to sustain confidence in local democracy. To that end I move this amendment and indicate my support for the subsequent amendments.
Lord Wills
I hope that my noble friend will comment on a concern brought to me by a constituent when I was the Member of Parliament for North Swindon, which powerfully illustrates the case that he is making for the amendment.
A couple of years ago the constituent came to me with his concerns about the Wyvern theatre in Swindon, which is owned by Swindon borough council but the management of which is contracted to a private company. My constituent had learnt that the business of the lead member in the Swindon borough council cabinet with primary responsibility for letting this management contract had been given thousands of pounds worth of business—from memory, it had been given £10,000 to £12,000 worth of business—by the theatre. It was clear that the councillor concerned had acted properly in leaving the room whenever this contract was discussed. However, that did not satisfy my constituent who made the point to me over and over again that if a Minister had been in an analogous position there would have been a scandal and the Minister would have had to resign. He kept saying to me that even if the councillor had done nothing wrong himself, the private management company might still be trying spontaneously to curry favour with that councillor as his decisions could be of enormous importance to its commercial well-being.
I told my constituent that in my view there was nothing necessarily wrong with a councillor getting business in this way. Councillors are not paid a salary in the same way as Members of Parliament are, for example, and most councillors need to earn a living. I told my constituent that the way to deal with the matter was to find out whether a proper procurement process had been followed, whether the contract had been put out to tender, if it had not been, why not, and if it had been, how many people had responded to the tender, what prices had been offered and whether the contract had been awarded on price, quality or for some other reason—in other words, whether it was all transparent. My constituent pursued this route and I did so on his behalf. We went to the council, which could not do anything. We went to the private company which was not covered by the freedom of information legislation and refused to give any information, so the situation was completely opaque and remains so to this day.
I hope the Minister will agree that such a lack of transparency on such a potentially sensitive issue is not acceptable and that this amendment may provide a way to tackle the opaque nature of such a transaction. I am sure that this situation is not unique to Swindon. If the amendment is not acceptable, perhaps the Minister can come up with some other proposal. I hope my noble friend will agree that his amendment would help to deal with this sort of issue.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I am not sure that it would. Standards committees were established to investigate allegations about members’ conduct. If a member has complied with the requirements of registering an interest and declaring it, unless there was any evidence on the part of a complainant that he had done something improper such as lobbying colleagues behind the scenes or something of that kind, I cannot see that the standards committee route would avail. Other processes might be worth pursuing—for example, via the audit committee of a council or possibly the district auditor. However, I cannot see, in the particular circumstances that my noble friend has outlined, that that would fall within the province of a standards committee or the Standards Board. There does not seem to be a sufficient prima facie case of misconduct on the part of an elected member who has actually declared an interest and absented himself from a decision-making process. I am sorry that that does not sound too helpful, but the system was not designed for such a case as that which my noble friend has outlined.
Lord Shipley
My Lords, perhaps I may comment briefly on the standards issue, not least because I tabled an amendment yesterday about standards committees that unfortunately has been printed as part of the amendments to the Education Bill. Members of your Lordships’ House will, therefore, not have seen it. I fully understand the predicament that that puts us all in. However, this relates directly to what the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said. Perhaps I may express some views on the Standards Board and standards committee issue.
For a number of years, I have been deeply concerned about the performance of the Standards Board and that whole standards structure. After a lot of thought about how you might actually make it work better, my amendment proposes a prescriptive way forward that might avoid some of the problems that we have experienced in recent years. We have had problems because the structures of the Standards Board for England and the standards committee under it have worked badly. There have been too many spurious references to it, often followed by detailed press interest in the accusation that has been made. There have been some very poor decisions, many of them reported in the media, and a number have been successfully challenged in the courts. There should not be a structure that ends up with successful challenges in the courts, in a quasi-judicial system, being pursued by local authority standards committees. People’s reputations are at stake here, and we have to do it a bit better.
However, the time is not right for a wholesale change in the standards system, because the general public have a right to expect that a council has a code of conduct, and, in my view, that should not be voluntary. It should be statutory and there has to be a standards committee that can look into any allegations or complaints that the code has not been followed. However, this is quite different from the register of interests and, for example, a failure to declare an interest. Indeed, a potential example was discussed a moment ago.
My solution is simply to propose that we might consider, between now and Report, a provision that a relevant authority should have a standards committee, but that such committees might be established jointly between relevant authorities, which is particularly important for parish councils. That is because the structure of a standards board for an individual parish council is hard to deliver. It would cost a great deal, for one thing. The role of the standards committee is to assess cases brought before it against the code of conduct of that relevant authority, but the membership must have a majority of independent members. They would be appointed against known principles, and have an independent chair. Those councillors who currently serve on such a committee, coming from their own local authority, would no longer do so, because otherwise there would be a real doubt in the mind of the general public as to whether there is any real or perceived bias in a judgment that is reached. I would have other members in a minority who have been elected members of a local authority, I propose for at least four years, but they should not currently be members of a local authority and would not have been a member of the relevant authority to which the committee relates. In other words, you put a barrier between those who make the decision of a standards committee and those whom it is investigating. You would have to have an appeals system. My amendment suggests that the Secretary of State should establish by regulation an appeals system at a national level, and I propose that members would be former chairs of standards committees, all of whom at present are independent.
Maybe we will come back to that issue on the third day but I hope that there may be a way for us to preserve some form of standards committee. Even in this structure, most councils are going to want to do so; otherwise, they do not have a means of investigating a complaint on the voluntary code of conduct. It is a very serious matter because the public perception has to be that everything is being done properly and is above board. So I do not support a voluntary code of conduct and I do think that there is a very strong case for a standards committee for each relevant authority—but possibly combined across several—to be considered.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, the coalition has considered the whole issue of standards boards and standards committees. We must recognise that there are different arguments in this case between the Benches opposite and ourselves. Amendment 96A seeks to remove the amendments that the Government are proposing to the Local Government Act 2000, which are needed to remove the requirement for local authorities in England to have standards committees. Of course, this applies only to England.
Rejecting the coalition’s changes to the standards board regime will remove local choice and retain a key aspect of a costly conduct regime which, as my noble friend Lord Shipley has said, has led to vexatious and politically motivated complaints against councillors. However, my noble friend would admit that if we are going to instil a full sense of responsibility in local government, we need to vest in those local authorities the responsibility for the standards of their members. Local authorities may well wish to adopt a voluntary code of conduct for members and co-opted members and determine for themselves what should be in that code; or they may choose to ensure high standards in another way, for example, through a statement of clear principles against which members can be judged by the electorate. The key element is that the choice about how to promote good conduct should be for local authorities to make, rather than for Government to impose on them the requirement for a code of a conduct or standards committees if they do not wish to go down that route.
I know that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, will disagree with this because he disagrees with the purpose of this amendment but I have to state the position of the coalition, which is quite clear, that this is a matter for local authorities themselves.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I hesitate to intervene at this stage. This is almost the first time in a very long local government career that I actually think that central government should be imposing something. I share the views that have been expressed that it must be a statutory requirement that each local authority must—not may—have a code of conduct. There is a separate issue concerning how that code of conduct is drawn up but I think that it would be nonsense for each local authority to have a different one. There should be a uniform code. I believe that the Association of Council Secretaries and Solicitors—we used to call them legal officers—is drawing up a code of conduct that could be adopted. That is good and right, and I do not suggest for a moment that central government should draw up the code and impose it; I am saying, and I believe quite strongly, that Parliament—central government, if you like—should say that a code of conduct is mandatory, not voluntary. Good local authorities—the vast majority—will adopt a code of conduct, but the ones that most need, and should have, a code are probably those least likely to have one. That is why it should be a mandatory requirement.
The code does not have to be drawn up by central government; it could be drawn up by the association that I mentioned or by the Local Government Association. However, I believe that it needs to be a uniform code so that we do not have different standards wherever they happen to suit particular local interests, usually because it is those local interests that are most in question.
My other question relates to the standards committee. Again, I feel that in the general, although not universal, rejoicing at the departure of the Standards Board for England we are in danger of throwing out a baby with the bath water. We are in danger of moving to a situation that is worse than the one we had before the Standards Board was put in place. Therefore, I believe that it should be mandatory for each local authority to have a standards committee. I say that as one who will constantly argue against prescription, but this is one area where it is particularly important. My noble friend Lord Shipley has proposed a way in which standards committees might be constituted. There are lots of discussions to be had around that, and they could well be had within local government and not necessarily involve central government. However, again, the mandatory requirement to have a standards committee is fundamental.
Those are two issues where, unusually for me, I argue that there should be at least a minimum requirement of a mandatory code of conduct and a standards committee, the composition and nature of which could be subject to further consultation and discussion. Those two requirements should be in the Bill.
Lord Beecham
I endorse everything that the noble Lord has said. I could not have put it better myself. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
(a) the Mayor’s joint exercise of those functions may be delegated under section 38 of the Greater London Authority Act 1999; and(b) the Assembly’s joint exercise of those functions may be delegated under section 54 of that Act.”
Lord Tope
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 98A, 98B, 98C, 98D and 98G. All these amendments refer to the Greater London Authority and they have been proposed by the GLA, of which I was a member for the first eight years of its life, although I no longer am. They seek to iron out two small anomalies relating to London—in particular, Clause 16(7)—and to build into the Bill’s national provisions for standards the flexibility that I think is key to them working now and in the future.
Amendment 96B is a technical amendment to Clause 16(7). It would ensure that the Greater London Authority’s future standards regime was shaped by both the mayor and the Assembly, as is currently the situation, rather than just by the Assembly, as proposed in the Bill.
Amendments 98A, 98B, 98C, 98D and 98G amend Clause 17 to provide the Greater London Authority with the ability to delegate the relevant standards functions, which do not include decisions on whether or not to establish a standards regime and the nature of any such regime, including the potential ability of the monitoring officer to investigate relevant complaints and to take action as necessary depending on the outcome of any such investigations within the terms of the regime as may be established by the elected members of the authority.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I can perhaps offer a slightly more friendly response to my noble friend Lord Tope’s more recent speech than I did to his previous suggestions. The proposal in Amendment 96B and the consequential Amendment 98G—that the new standards function set out in Chapter 5 of Part 1 of the Bill should be a joint duty of the Mayor of London and the London Assembly, as it now is—is one that we are open to considering and seems to have common sense behind it. I can see the benefit of ensuring that the mayor and the Assembly are given equal roles and responsibility for promoting and maintaining high standards.
On Amendments 98A, 98B, 98C and 98D, we see that there is a specific issue here for the GLA in terms of the delegation of decision-making by the Assembly to employees of the authority and we are happy to consider it further. I am not convinced that the same issues apply to other local authorities that have the benefit of Section 101 of the Local Government Act 1972, so perhaps it is not necessary for the amendments to be drafted in quite such wide terms. I am therefore happy to undertake to further consider all these amendments with my fellow Ministers and we can return to our discussion on Report.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for what I hope was a favourable reply. I am certain that the GLA and my noble friend Lady Doocey, who is still a member of the London Assembly, will wish to join me in saying that we seek a common-sense and rational solution to a particular issue that applies to one particular authority, the Greater London Authority. On that constructive note, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I am not sure we have had a may/must amendment yet on this Bill, but perhaps we have and I have missed it. This is an important amendment. I rise to speak to my amendments in this group: Amendments 97A, 98E, 98F and 98H. I will also speak to the other two amendments in the group, if I may.
There is widespread concern within local government that the Government have not got this exactly right. At the very least, it needs some fettling and a number of probably quite major changes if it is going to work fairly. As my noble friend Lord Tope said earlier, there is a widespread feeling in local government—it is not universal—that the demise of the Standards Board for England is to be welcomed. The Standards Board for England’s regime has turned out in practice to be expensive. It has been arbitrary in too many cases, and therefore it has been seen to be unfair. It has been open to abuse, and it has been open to attempted political manipulation, not by Standards Board members or its staff, but by people trying to use the system in order to do down opponents.
In our judgment, the removal of the Standards Board for England is a good idea, and we congratulate the Government on doing it, but something has to replace it. We cannot simply go back to the free-for-all situation we had up until about 20 years ago when standards codes and sanctions against councillors were hardly known. The system then seemed to work. There did not seem to be any more rogue councillors than there are now, and people did not seem to step out of line more than they do now, but the world has changed. We are now in a world in which standards in public life have come in and are accepted right across the board of everybody who takes part in public life. We have even had to grapple with these matters and come up with solutions here in the House of Lords. Local authorities are no different, and to pretend that local authorities generally, or some local authorities in particular, can be excepted from this situation is not the world that we are now living in.
The Government’s proposal in the Bill is that there will be no national system, no national organisations and no bureaucracies; it will all be left to local authorities. In our debate on a previous amendment, my noble friend Lord Taylor said that it will be up to local authorities to behave sensibly and do what they think is best in their area. There will be no uniform or national standards code, so each authority will be able to adopt its own code or not have one. It can keep, amend or do away with the present code. If any of my description of the present system is wrong, I hope the Minister will intervene and tell me, but I do not think it is.
Authorities will be able to choose whether to have standards committees. Since local authorities all have them at the moment and are institutionally fairly conservative bodies, most of them will probably keep them in one form or another, but it will be open to an authority not to have them, so there will be a hotchpotch pattern; they will be able to invent their own rules for how standards committees work within their own codes of conduct.
In addition, for the offence of failing to declare appropriate interests, either by not entering them on to a register of interests or by failing to declare them in meetings at appropriate times, the only real sanction left is the criminal law and, subject to the Director of Public Prosecutions’ agreement, people will be arraigned before a magistrates’ court if the DPP thinks it is serious enough. Meanwhile, parish councils will be left in some sort of limbo. They might be able to have their own systems or to continue to be part of a district council’s standards committee and system of standards, but if the local district council does not have one or decides to do away with it all, the parish councillors will have the choice either of doing it themselves, which might be rather difficult for small parish councils, or not doing it at all.
That seems to be the regime that is on offer. Perhaps the way I have presented it suggests that I am not terribly impressed with it. Nevertheless, I think my presentation of it is factually correct.
We have been here before and had something similar to this. When standards committees were first brought into local authorities, local authorities were left to do their own thing. Many of them did it very well, but in some places it was not done well. It was done either inefficiently or in an arbitrary, uneven or unfair way. In a small minority of places—it is always a small minority—it was not a good thing. It was fairly dreadful. Some authorities used it to victimise individual councillors in order to conduct campaigns against opposition groups on the council and to conduct witch-hunts against individuals. That is always the danger if local authorities in an area like this are left to their own devices, because there will be some places where malign, malevolent politics gets in the way of a fair system. Therefore, we propose in amendments in this group, and in the next group, which I will speak to later, a system in which every authority must have a standards committee. It seems ridiculous that someone could be dual-hatted or triple-hatted, and on three different authorities at different levels, some of those authorities having a standards committee and some not.
Equally, we are suggesting a uniform, standard, national code of conduct. We are not talking about local diversity. There cannot be local diversity about what is appropriate conduct for people in public life. We are talking about standards in public life. While standards and rules for councillors may be different from those for Members of the House of Lords, Members of the House of Commons, people on national quangos or whatever, the organisations are different. Nevertheless, they should be based on the same principles and underlying standards in public life.
There does not seem to be any reason why, if I am a member of a district council, a parish council and a county council, which I have no intention of being except for one of them, there should be a different code of conduct on each council. Surely, that cannot be right. Nor can it be right that of the 11 or 12 district councils in Lancashire, some do not have a code of conduct and some have a very different code of conduct from the adjoining council. Codes of conduct should be laid down nationally.
We are saying that the drawing up of the code of conduct and its approval should be done by local government and not by the Secretary of State or national government. It should be the responsibility of representatives of local government and, in terms of legislation, the LGA obviously is a key representative. We want systems for appeals and we want to sort out parish councils. We want to look at criminal offences, but they are in the next group so I will not talk about them any more at the moment.
On something like this there has to be protection for the public against rogue councils. Much as I have an underlying, innate aversion to national uniformity in anything, some things are so important and fundamental that they underpin everything else. This is the right way forward.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, we agree with the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, that we cannot have a free-for-all and that it should be mandatory for every local authority to have a code of conduct. There should be a universal code and an appeals procedure. If that means that we would support each of these amendments, that is where we are.
Lord Beecham
I hear what the noble Lord says but the Bill distinguishes, does it not, between matters which will be made criminal offences. Failure to register or to declare an interest are offences at the serious end of misconduct. But is that not a national provision? What is the difference in principle between obligations of that kind and obligations of other sorts of conduct that can affect a community that a council is representing?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I do not think the noble Lord is suggesting that to offend the code of conduct in any way should be made a criminal offence. What is clear is that some aspects of conduct in public office are indeed criminal matters and therefore subject to prosecution under the existing law. We will come on to the declaration of interests at a later point.
This has been a worthwhile debate, but I hope that noble Lords understand exactly where the coalition is coming from and why it is seeking to introduce a regime that puts the responsibility on local authorities themselves to ensure the proper conduct of their members and their business. We will have useful opportunities between now and the Report stage to discuss these matters further. In the mean time, I hope that my noble friend will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I have to say that I am profoundly disappointed with the position we find ourselves in. I was warned earlier on, before I had said anything, to stay on message, but I am bound to say that I cannot understand how a Localism Bill can impose referendums on cities that have had the opportunity for the past 10 or 11 years to hold a referendum on a mayor if they wanted to and say that that is localism, but cannot recognise the need for a standard, mandatory code of conduct. The Bill says that it should simply be left to local authorities to decide how they should behave or, indeed, if they should have a code of conduct at all. I do not understand that, and I have to say that for this part of the coalition Benches, it is a fundamentally important issue.
I welcome the offer of further discussions, but I have to say, and I will put on the record now, that for the Liberal Democrat Benches it is important to recognise a mandatory code of conduct—as I said before, how and by whom it is drawn up is open to discussion—that applies to all local authorities and therefore to all councillors. As my noble friend Lord Greaves has said, it should apply to all councillors because it is not a matter for local diversity, interests or circumstances. As important is the need to have a standards committee. Again the nature, format and constitution of that committee are open to discussion, but the basic fact that each local authority should have a standards committee is important to us.
With the offer of further discussions, for now I certainly beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Greaves
I am confused because my Marshalled List does not have the next amendment, Amendment 98HA, on it.
Lord Greaves
I have found it.
Clause 18 : Disclosure and registration of members' interests
Amendment 98HA
Lord Greaves
Lord Greaves
My Lords, in effect this is not a substantial amendment, so I probably do not have to move it formally, but I shall speak to the substantial amendments in the group.
Lord Tope
We are discussing issues that are extremely important for local government after the normal rising time of the House and in our eighth hour in Committee. We are not doing justice to an important issue and, frankly, we are in danger of bringing the House into ridicule.
Lord Tope
I am sorry to have to say that as a loyal member of the coalition, but it is my view.
Amendment 98J would simply leave out “and other”. The other amendment in my name in this grouping is identical. My purpose is not so much to press the amendment as to find out what the Government have in mind with “and other”. What does it refer to?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, we do not see the case for these amendments, which would limit the registering and declaring of interests to financial interests. That would take us back to the days before the Widdicombe committee in 1988, when there was widespread concern about the treatment of non-pecuniary interests, which led to the strengthening of the requirements relating to pecuniary interests. There are clearly situations where non-financial interests are relevant to decision-making by councillors, and it is right that the public are aware of such interests so that they can see that decisions are being made fairly and transparently. I hope that my noble friend will see the merit of the argument and withdraw his amendment.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I apologise. I should have jumped up before the Minister. I will speak to Amendments 98K and 98M in this group.
On the two other amendments in the group, Amendments 98J and 98L, which would remove “and other” and “or other” respectively, an important, if not fundamental, point to be made is that the Government are proposing to use in this Bill language which in local government is rather out of date. Local government used to talk about financial interests and non-financial interests. If you had a financial interest, you had to declare it. You then had to do whatever the council instructed you to do, such as leave the room or sit there and not speak. If you had a non-financial interest, you had to declare it, but you were not usually subject to those sanctions.
My experience is that local government nowadays talks about personal and prejudicial interests, which are similar. However, prejudicial interests, while they include financial interests, are wider ranging and may include interests which are not directly financial but are nevertheless thought to be prejudicial to somebody taking part in discussion and debate. Personal interests, which have to be declared, are those which people should know about but are not thought to be prejudicial to people taking part in a debate. It seems to be common practice in local government nowadays for those words to be used. I was fairly sure that they had been used in the previous legislation, although I have not looked it up. Perhaps along with my noble friend, I would ask the Government to check the nomenclature, because there is no point putting in legislation words which are not now used on the ground and, in any case, are narrower perhaps, and less clear certainly, than the words and categories now used in local government.
My amendments in this group follow on from the amendments in the previous group. They are part of a package of the way we suggest the new standards regime needs to be changed. First, if there is to be a local system of councillors being sanctioned by local committees and no National Standards Board procedure, there needs to be an appeals procedure written into the system. There has to be a way in which someone who feels aggrieved by a local decision is able to appeal to a wider group against the sanction made against them. As I understand it, this is normal human rights and administrative tribunal procedure. In many ways these bodies will be operating as administrative tribunals and we hope that the Government will look at this issue. We suggest that it should not be a national quango such as the Standards Board for England and that it should not be run by central government; it should be operated within local government by representatives of local government and it should be set up in co-operation with the LGA. As my noble friend Lord Shipley said, we have set out ways in which this can be done.
My second point concerns parish councils. The Government have not bottomed the issue of parish councils on this new standards regime. I have a long briefing about the problems that it will cause to parish councils but I shall not read it all out. If parish councils have to operate their own procedures, there will clearly be resource implications. Big town councils might be able to do it—although it might be wasteful of their funding—but small parish councils will not possibly be able to do it. If there are many individual local codes so that parish councils operate different systems and some do not have any, how will members of parish councils be trained to understand the code? How will parish clerks, who play an absolutely crucial role, be trained in the new system?
My experience from talking to people involved in standards committee throughout the country is that where there are lots of parish councils they seem to occupy quite a high proportion of the time of standards committees. The reason for this is obvious: parish councillors are not getting the expert advice on standards matters—on declarations of interest and so on—which they ought to be getting; and parish clerks are perhaps not being trained or not passing on that advice. I am a huge fan of parish councils but there may be something about parish-level politics and government that leads to individual rivalries and encourages people to make complaints against each other. Whatever it is, there is no doubt that parishes form quite a large part of the workload of standards committees in many different places. To leave them adrift, as this Bill seems to do, does not seem the right way to go.
In our view, the parishes probably need their own system. That system ought to be operated via the established means of communication and training that parish councils have with the National Association of Local Councils and other bodies such as the county organisations, and there ought to be county-level standards committees for parish councils. Whatever the system is, doing it within the parish council community is a sensible idea—particularly if the parish council finds itself cast adrift with a district that does not have a system. In any case, if districts have different codes of conduct and different systems for standards committees, the parish councils will have to join in those willy-nilly whether or not they agree with the systems and the codes. A separate parish system seems to be the way to look at things.
My final point relates to criminal offences. Again, we think the Government have not thought this issue through properly. On failures to declare interests, a major failure is a very serious matter indeed, whether it be a failure to register or a failure to declare during a meeting. A minor failure would require a sanction—but not a draconian sanction such as being hauled up before a magistrates' court. Yet the government system seems to mean that if the offence of not declaring or not registering an interest is not sufficiently serious for the DPP to agree to prosecute, there will be no sanctions at all. That does not seem to be the right way forward.
As for the criminal investigations and vexatious complaints, that needs thinking through; there are enough vexatious complaints on standards already that end up with people being found not guilty and having no sanctions against them—or, in my case, the complaint was proved and the sanction was nothing. People can imagine what happened. There are enough cases of people using the standards procedure for political or personal vexatious purposes. Think of the prospects of this being used when criminal sanctions are possible. You would get massive headlines in the local papers that the complaints had been made, it would all come to nothing but the damage would all have been done. It has to be thought through a bit more carefully.
I join my noble friend Lord Tope in hoping that we can have discussions with the Government in the mean time and that at the very least we can get the thing thought through again. If no change occurs at the end of the day, so be it—but we are convinced that the Government have not yet got it quite right.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I am not sure that we would agree with everything that the noble Lord has said, but we would appreciate the opportunity to join in the discussions with government together with the coalition parties.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I thank noble Lords. I am sort of having a second bite of the cherry within the group, because I can talk specifically about the proposals of my noble friend. I hope that I can really reassure him. He talked about appeal structures and the like and the need to maintain them—and of course human rights legislation provides for this. But in actual fact the sanctions that the Secretary of State intends to provide for in regulations under Clause 18(2) will be relatively low-level sanctions based on powers of discipline that councils already possess. It is not our intention to confer any new disciplinary powers of the sort that would give rise to a need or expectation for a bureaucratic appeal process.
I cannot support Amendment 98M, which would insert a new clause relating to parish standards, although I understand the interest in it. The legislation as currently drafted gives parishes the power to have a code or a standards committee if they would like. Parish councils are free to make arrangements to work jointly with other authorities. My noble friend is mistaken if he believes that advice is not available to parish councils. The last Government published the Quality Parish and Town Council Scheme; it was published by the department in 2003, and it gives information about model charters whereby principal and local councils in England can work in partnership. That document can be viewed on the DCLG website. We intend here also that the regulations to be issued by the Secretary of State under Clause 18(1) will specify that the registration of parish members' interests will be carried out by the monitoring officer of the district within which the relevant parish falls.
There was some talk about the criminal sanctions for failing to register, and I note noble Lords’ concerns on that. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked, too, that he might be a party to discussions that we might have before Report on those issues. I assure noble Lords that we would be happy to discuss that aspect of Clause 19 relating to breaching regulations under Clause 18. With that, I ask my noble friend Lord Tope to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, the issue of Clause 19 was the question of the way in which the regime would operate and the criminalisation of a failure to declare interests. I have given reassurances to the House in that regard, and with that in mind I wish to see Clause 19 stand part of the Bill.