Private Finance Initiative

Neil Carmichael Excerpts

Thursday 23rd June 2011 Westminster Hall

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to be operating under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. It is a great thing that my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) has done in securing this very important debate, because he has raised a number of issues that have been challenged or discussed and, often, supported in useful ways.

The idea of securing a rebate is a good one. I know that the Treasury, in the form of Lord Sassoon, the Commercial Secretary to the Treasury, is busily doing just that—he is attempting to negotiate a rebate. I am not sure how well the negotiation is going, but it is clearly under way. So the concept of making savings, with of course the proviso that standards and services are not threatened, is well established. My hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire is absolutely right to push this issue further up the agenda. I salute that.

There is a question about off-balance sheet expenditure. It is right that that issue should be carefully considered. In the context of the green investment bank, we have already done that. The funding for that is now measured to about £3 billion. When our deficit is going down, that bank will be able to raise more capital. There is the same sort of issue, although obviously better controlled by the present Government than the previous one, in connection with the PFI.

I want you to cast your mind back to the time before PFIs got started in this country. Can you remember those schools that were designed poorly, built badly and maintained with no attention to longevity? I have buildings in my constituency that could have been much better designed and of much better quality. Indeed, a building that was literally knocked up in 1956—frankly, it was a disgrace—was recently knocked down. It was put up by a local authority as a technical college, and I could see when I first arrived in Stroud that it should have been knocked down years before. We must remember that PFI schemes have improved the quality of buildings, and in many cases that has improved the quality of services.

[Mr Bacon]

If my hon. Friend were to visit St Thomas Aquinas grammar school and Wellington college in Belfast, he might disagree. Wellington college was built under the PFI, and halfway through negotiations on what should have been a quality building the contractors suddenly said, “Sorry, these are off. Here is your L-shaped school.” St Thomas Aquinas school was procured conventionally. The schools were the same size, the same capital was available for both, and they had the same number of pupils and were of the same socio-economic background, but St Thomas Aquinas school ended up a much better quality school. I have spent a lot of time in both schools and have seen the difference for myself.

[Neil Carmichael]

I thank my hon. Friend for making a good point; I shall answer it later in some detail.

I turn next to the history of the PFI. It goes back much further than 1992. The United States has been using PFI schemes for decades because it wanted private money to be used to provide public utilities, roads and so on. The PFI has a history in the US, in many parts of Europe and in most regions of the world. We have plenty of experience of it. There is much activity in that sector that we can draw upon in order to improve the way in which it works. That is the key point.

PFI schemes have recently become far too complicated. As was pointed out earlier, in many of the original schemes things were simply designed, built and then maintained. More recently, however, we have been throwing in services and all sorts of extras. As a result, the process has become complicated; indeed, many of us have used that word today. That is largely because we have confused the original concept of the PFI by adding on services and so on. There is nothing wrong with that, but it brings me to the fact that we must get the procurement systems right. To do that, we must specify much more clearly what is wanted. Local authorities have to learn to do that, as must the health service; it is a question of commissioning. My hon. Friend, who represents a beautiful Cornish seat—it is in Cornwall, is it not?

[Anne Marie Morris]

It is in Devon.

[Neil Carmichael]

Devon: it gets better! My hon. Friend made that point rather well. It certainly needs to be considered, as specifying and procurement are critical.

We also need to understand value for money. Most PFI schemes under the previous Government did not seem to do so. The next big task is to define value for money. That will be helped if we get the data right and if we understand the systems in each project. Many people talk about the difficulties of PFI schemes in hospitals. I am not surprised, given that many hospitals cannot even tell you the cost of an operation. We need more data. If we have much more information about what is happening, it will inform the debate about value for money.

Another big problem is the lack of accountability in the decision-making process. I said that it is important to specify and procure properly, but if we do not hold those who do the specifying or procuring properly to account we will have only ourselves to blame. We need systems to ensure that specifications are clear and all-inclusive and produce the right procurement. We then need to ensure the right attitude to procurement, a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat).

[Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

I hope that my hon. Friend will forgive me telling a small anecdote. I remember being told a story by one of the famous bomber command air officers. When talking about procurement, he said, “The thing to do is not to make a small mistake, because if you do they can pursue you for it. The thing to do is to make an enormous mistake.” Is that not part of the problem? Enormous mistakes are being made, and we cannot possibly hold individual officials or politicians to account for such giant sums.

[Neil Carmichael]

I thank my hon. Friend for that. I do not like any mistakes; I do not like small ones, but I especially dislike big ones. We need a system that allows fewer of both, but particularly large ones.

[David Mowat]

It is about accountability and procurement. Much of what has been said this afternoon is about procurement failures rather than the failure of the PFI technique. I do not agree that people cannot be held to account for big procurement errors. Many organisations succeed in holding others to account, but the Government do not. I would be interested to know whether people in any of the procuring organisations involved in these awful contracts have been held to account—how many jobs have been lost and how many promotions have been missed—but my guess is not many on either count.

[Neil Carmichael]

I think that you are absolutely right if you agree with me that we need more accountability in the procurement and specification systems.

[Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair)]

Order. I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman. He is making an interesting speech, but I keep hearing “you.” I do not want to disrupt the flow, but I am aware that it happens sometimes.

[Neil Carmichael]

Thank you for being so understanding, Mrs Main. This is such a complex subject that you have to marshal your thoughts clearly.

The discussion of procurement leads me to the next big issue—the competitiveness of the tendering process. One of the difficulties is that there are not often enough bidders. That is not surprising, because the bidding costs are sometimes far too high. We therefore need to think about the competitive process and the bidding issue together. I believe that the answer is to make the contractual arrangements and the contracts simpler and more adaptable. You cannot alter a system as complicated as this by looking at one part of it and making some changes, because that will have consequences further down the line, but I think that bidding costs are indeed too high, largely because contracts are too rigid and too few organisations are looking into that as a mechanism.

One or two Members have mentioned income streams. That is a really good point. Most schemes with strong income streams have worked rather well. Those with no proper measure of income or service have not worked so well. We need to divide the concept of the private finance initiative into those schemes with strong and reliable income streams and those mainly to do with service and operation. The difficulty is that we apply the strict definition of the private finance initiative to virtually everything, when we have a much more flexible phrase—public-private partnership. That is what we should be thinking about, so that we do not get ourselves tied up in knots.

[Mr Bacon]

I have tried to resist intervening on my hon. Friend to ask him whether he realises that he is talking unutterable rubbish. First, if you have more specifying, you are obviously going to increase the costs hugely. As for public-private partnerships, I would encourage him to look at the London Underground PPP, where the finance costs were £500 million higher because of the complexity of the scheme, and because the Chancellor of the day detested Ken Livingstone, the professional fees added another £500 million. You—one, Mrs Main—must be careful to distinguish between the different facets. My hon. Friend said that clinical operations cost more in some hospitals than others. Of course he is right, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the PFI.

[Neil Carmichael]

Thank you very much. [Laughter.] You know, it is always great when someone makes a point in opposition that proves the point that is being made. If you keep changing the specifications, you will increase the complexity, making it harder for those who are procuring to understand, and the bidding process just goes awry. The real problem is that various organisations have not specified clearly enough and have not stuck to the specifications as first announced. Therefore, there have been far too many changes, sometimes as late as just before contract signing. That is what I am getting at. It is totally unacceptable. It wastes huge amounts of money—millions of pounds—and it puts off other bidders because, of course, they think to themselves, “Where are we in this? It’s a movable feast.” That is not what we want. We need to bolt it down, and that is why I emphasised the importance of specification. It is a really important point, and my hon. Friend has just proved it. If you keep changing the specification, you will always end up having a problem with a contract of any description. That is where I stand on that issue.

Finally, I want to mention the ridiculous business about light bulbs, car parking at hospitals and so on—the sort of things that we must get away from. That is really important. It is what the Treasury and indeed any organisation involved in such a situation should be moving away from. It is not acceptable; it causes a huge number of problems. It is nonsense to argue that an income stream for a hospital will be the car park for the patients who turn up to it. That needs to be stated. We need to get a grip on what the hospital is actually for and apply the logic of the contract to that. That is the answer to the second point made by my hon. Friend.

In summary, PFI has a role to play, but we must be imaginative about making sure that it works better. If we are going to be spending more than £200 billion on our infrastructure alone in the next decade or so, we will have to appeal more effectively to the private sector to dip into its pocket. Properly modified, PFI can do that. That does not mean that we should not be looking at rebates, and it does not mean that we should not be concerned about what is on or off the balance sheet and so on. It does mean that we must apply value for money on the scheme and ensure that it works for those who need it.

[Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair)]

Before Dr Thérèse Coffey makes her very eloquent speech, I am sure she will bear in mind that I have had very little to do with PFI schemes, and I would appreciate it if she were mindful of that.