Live Debate: Commons Chamber

Martin McCluskey MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Inverclyde and Renfrewshire West, Labour)

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Oliver. >> Oliver. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the Minister for his answer. The energy price cap increase is estimated to cost each household an estimated to cost each household an extra £18 every month. That is the price of a regular essential food shop at a discount supermarket. Now I know the measures the Minister says the government is taking. But in addition, will the government urgently bring forward a social urgently bring forward a social tariff for vulnerable low income households?

11:58

Olly Glover MP (Didcot and Wantage, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Member makes an important point. And obviously, from the government's point of view, we do not want anyone to be making the choice between heating and eating. And that is why across government, we are working on a data sprint to work out how we can use household income data to make sure that we are targeting support at the right people. people. Speaker.

11:58

Martin McCluskey MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Inverclyde and Renfrewshire West, Labour)

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The typical annual dual fuel bill is 40% higher today in real terms than it was in 2021. And after accounting for inflation, that is £511 more per household. The bad news doesn't stop there, with Ofgem announcing that this crisis is going to get worse, with a 13% increase to the energy price cap. Now my constituents are Leicester South are already suffering. Labour promised to fix suffering. Labour promised to fix that, but the cost of living is just getting worse with.

Now, when the Minister says the only way to protect our country is through clean home grown power, what is he therefore doing to decouple the therefore doing to decouple the bills from gas prices? And when will my constituents of Leicester South feel it.

11:58

Shockat Adam MP (Leicester South, Independent)

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And the state? Leicester will benefit from the decisions that we've already made. Those decisions take £150 off of energy costs, the decision to extend the warm home discount and the Warm homes plan £15 billion of

11:59

Martin McCluskey MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Inverclyde and Renfrewshire West, Labour)

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support. But I would say to him that we are delinking. We are taking that action already. The Secretary of State made Secretary of State made announcements on that last month and I would point them towards Ofgem, who pointed out that while last week wholesale gas prices in last week wholesale gas prices in the price cap went up by 24%, electricity went up by 5%. And as electricity went up by 5%. And as they said, and I quote, this reflects the increasing amount of renewable generation on the system and therefore reduce reliance on

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and therefore reduce reliance on gas. Gagan Mohindra thank you, Mr. Speaker. 3199 households in my constituency currently experience fuel poverty due to high energy costs and costs linked to the government's clean energy agenda could mean household bills are set to rise by at least £100 in the next four years. How long will hardworking families in South West Hertfordshire have to pay the price for Labour's ideological dash away from domestic energy production, until they have a credible plan to until they have a credible plan to fill the gaps in their energy policy?

12:00

Mr Gagan Mohindra MP (South West Hertfordshire, Conservative)

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Mr. speaker, this is coming from a member of a party that learned no lessons from the last energy crisis. We will not take. We will not make those same mistakes, which is why we are investing in clean power by 2030, which will drive down bills. And only today. We've also seen the jobs benefit from the investment in jobs benefit from the investment in clean energy, supporting 1.1 million jobs, 2000 small businesses million jobs, 2000 small businesses and £105 billion for our economy.

12:00

Martin McCluskey MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Inverclyde and Renfrewshire West, Labour)

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Poole cried. to support domestic consumers of kerosene and heating oil. I'm told that those eligible, if they fill their tanks today, would be paying the equivalent of what would be paying in February 27th. But in my constituency, we also have big commercial uses of kerosene, oil distilleries, seaweed manufacturing, tourism and chemical plants as well. tourism and chemical plants as well. What measures does the government of the department taking to support commercial uses of kerosene oil? commercial uses of kerosene oil?

12:01

Torcuil Crichton MP (Na h-Eileanan an Iar, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for all the work that he is doing to advocate for his constituents in Na h-Eileanan an Iar. I was pleased to visit him recently to see the impact that the increases in heating oil was having on his constituents. We are looking closely at the non-domestic heating closely at the non-domestic heating oil market and will come forward with more proposals in due course.

12:01

Martin McCluskey MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Inverclyde and Renfrewshire West, Labour)

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Polly Billington thank you, Mr. Speaker. I congratulate my hon. Friend and the team for reducing the cost of energy, including recent efforts to break the link between the volatile gas price and electricity prices. But however, every witness we ask at the Energy Security Net Zero Select Committee Security Net Zero Select Committee how to decarbonise and reduce bills tell us make electricity cheaper. tell us make electricity cheaper. What further efforts in. Will the. Will they make in reforming the energy market in order to achieve this? this?

12:01

Ms Polly Billington MP (East Thanet, Labour)

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Minister thank you, Mr. Speaker. My hon. Friend will know that we are taking action, which the Secretary of State announced to further delink the cost of electricity from gas and as Ofgem said last week, in the price cap that we are we are already seeing the effects of that. And that because of the additional renewable generation on the system, we are seeing the effects of it. Every turbine we build, every solar panel turbine we build, every solar panel that we deploy and every reactor that we bring online is ultimately going to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels and bring down the cost of electricity.

Matt Western thank you.

12:02

Martin McCluskey MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Inverclyde and Renfrewshire West, Labour)

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Mr. Speaker. A good way of reducing bills is actually to reduce consumption. About 12 years ago in Germany, they introduced subsidised mortgages to help reduce sorry to to to affect the cost of installation of triple glazing in houses in Germany in consultations. However, conservation areas. However, in this country, such as However, in this country, such as in my constituency, they are prevented from even introducing or installing secondary glazing so installing secondary glazing so cannot reduce their bills even though they were desperately like to.

Can I just ask the Minister gently? Could he meet with gently? Could he meet with colleagues in HLG to get this sorted?

12:03

Matt Western MP (Warwick and Leamington, Labour)

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Minister thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd be more than happy to meet to discuss that. And the Warm Homes plan, which is our £15 billion investment in home energy upgrades, the biggest in British history, will go a long way to achieving some of the ends that he describes. I would also point towards the work that we are doing jointly with the Green Finance Institute to bring forward low cost consumer loans so forward low cost consumer loans so that people across the country can benefit from clean technology.

12:03

Martin McCluskey MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Inverclyde and Renfrewshire West, Labour)

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Sir.

12:03

Hannah Spencer MP (Gorton and Denton, Green Party)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Gorton and Denton are living in fuel poverty, and now they face even higher bills from the 1st of July. So does the Secretary of State agree that the Ofgem energy price cap should be frozen to provide universal support for households now, and to give people certainty in the cold winter months ahead?

12:03

Martin McCluskey MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Inverclyde and Renfrewshire West, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I welcome the hon. Lady to her place. I look forward to working closely I look forward to working closely with her, as I have with other colleagues from her party on. On this brief, she will know that we have said we will. We are looking have said we will. We are looking at all contingencies in terms of the support that we need. We may need to offer in the winter, but obviously that has to be paid for, and we need to make sure that we have proposals that do not make the same mistakes as the party opposite did when they wrote a blank cheque in the last crisis, in order to provide support to people.

So we will come forward with plans for support in the winter.

12:04

Chris Webb MP (Blackpool South, Labour)

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Well. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Blackpool is home to something special and remarkable. We've got a pioneering eco community hub at pioneering eco community hub at Palatine Library that offers free, independent energy advice and is helping residents make sense of new helping residents make sense of new technologies to reduce their bills. Since July 24th and it opened, I visited 1300 homes, offered 1000 winter packs and saved over £111,000 of energy bills. I met the new trainee green doctor there, Luke Holloway, who's out going into homes to support residents.

Will the Minister agree to meet with me to discuss this, to make sure we can keep this going for the long term and maybe rolling this out across the country?

12:05

Martin McCluskey MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Inverclyde and Renfrewshire West, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the work that he is doing in his work that he is doing in his constituency on this, and I'd be happy to meet him to discuss it further. I've seen myself the further. I've seen myself the benefit that green doctors, energy doctors have in constituencies across the country. We have visited programmes and that local support is going to be central to the work that we are doing when we are setting up the Warm Home Agency, which will provide advice and country.

12:05

Greg Smith MP (Mid Buckinghamshire, Conservative)

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Minister Greg Smith. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Labour came to office with bold promises to cut energy bills, but in the real world, we've seen bills go up, up and up again. Now, in answer to the first question, the Secretary the first question, the Secretary of State said he wanted to do all he could to cut energy bills. So here are some ideas where he actually could. He could scrap carbon taxes. He could remove VAT on energy for three years.

He could scrap legacy renewable subsidies that would save people £200. It's called the Conservatives cheap energy plan. And in the national

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interest, we don't mind if he steals it, will he? Yes, Minister.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We can see the economic recklessness of the party opposite when when the hon. Member stands there at the hon. Member stands there at the front bench, at that despatch box, making Uncosted promises and claims making Uncosted promises and claims bills, bills before this crisis were going down and were going in the right direction, and no one

12:06

Martin McCluskey MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Inverclyde and Renfrewshire West, Labour)

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would have anticipated the consequences, the consequences of the war in Iran. But let's look let's look at the balance sheet of the last two years. This government has made the biggest investment in warm homes history, record breaking renewables, delivering for 20 homes today, £90 billion of clean energy investment, and every single wind turbine we deploy, every single nuclear reactor that's

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online reduces energy bills for consumers across the country. Clive Jones number nine, Mr.

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Speaker. Minister. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. With your permission, I'll answer questions nine and 20 together. Supporting businesses with the cost of energy is a priority for the government. We've expanded support government. We've expanded support through the British Industrial Competitiveness Scheme and increased discounts on electricity network charges. We stand ready to

12:07

Chris McDonald MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Stockton North, Labour)

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network charges. We stand ready to act if market conditions worsen due to the Middle East crisis. >> Clive Jones thank you, Mr. Speaker. Sherlock McGill, based in my constituency of Wokingham, are world leaders in manufacturing door locking systems. They recently acquired a casting foundry to enable them to ensure that their manufacturing process proudly remains entirely in the UK. The foundry, though, is struggling with ever increasing energy costs. So ever increasing energy costs. So what is the government going to do to support local businesses who are proud of contributing to the UK proud of contributing to the UK economy, yet seem to be suffering as a result of their determination as a result of their determination to keep manufacturing in the UK?

12:07

Clive Jones MP (Wokingham, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On the specific case of the company that he mentions, if they're operating a ferrous foundry, then that will be part of the British Industrial Competitiveness Scheme. If it's a non-ferrous foundry, he may wish to share further details with me because I've had representation on both copper and aluminium foundries, and I'm looking at those very carefully. And this may be a non-ferrous foundry, so perhaps you non-ferrous foundry, so perhaps you could share that with me. Thank you.

12:08

Chris McDonald MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Stockton North, Labour)

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Sarah Green Mr. Speaker, not only as small businesses facing increasing energy bills, they're dealing with prohibitive costs when connecting to the grid when they want to expand. These are businesses wanting to grow, invest and create jobs, and we should be helping them. So can I ask the Minister what his department's doing to bring down the cost of grid connection and make sure that grid connection and make sure that the price of accessing reliable power is never the reason a small business can't get off the ground or expand? or expand?

12:08

Sarah Green MP (Chesham and Amersham, Liberal Democrat)

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Yeah it does. of businesses to connect to the grid, both to expand and to invest in new production facilities. Part of the work that we did on reordering the UQ has helped with that, but my colleague the Minister for energy has commissioned an end to end review so that we can bear down on the cost of grid connections.

12:09

Chris McDonald MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Stockton North, Labour)

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Mid Cheshire thank you.

12:09

Baggy Shanker MP (Derby South, Labour )

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Mr. Speaker. Crown Derby, soaring energy costs are hitting our ceramics industry hard, putting more skilled jobs at risk. I welcome the recently risk. I welcome the recently announced ceramic support package, which will help bring costs down. But can the Minister confirm he But can the Minister confirm he will work with colleagues across government to ensure energy bill support reaches the ceramic manufacturers who need it the most?

12:09

Chris McDonald MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Stockton North, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd really like to thank my hon. Friend and all of the other MPs from the and all of the other MPs from the Stoke and Staffordshire area for their work in championing the ceramics industry. And, of course, to say, first of all, how sad it was to hear the news of Derby of Denby, rather as a company proceeds into administration and government into administration and government is providing support to the workforce. But I would also mention the point that he raised there that the.

With the Chancellor of the Exchequer support, we're providing £120 million to enable ceramics companies to invest in lower carbon, essentially electrical furnaces, so that they can decarbonise and reduce their operating costs. I will, of course, be working very closely with ceramics MPs on the implementations. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the Minister for his answers. So far. I've recently written to the Department for Business Trade about the Lea Valley growers, who are fantastic fruit and veg growers and glasshouse growers in my constituency of Harlow.

They are obviously a hugely energy intensive business that are hugely important to food security in this country. Security in more general terms. Can I ask what work general terms. Can I ask what work he's doing across department with the Department for Business and Trade to ensure that no energy intensive business like the Lee intensive business like the Lee Valley growers are forgotten?

12:10

Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )

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Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, and I thank him for his letter on the Lea Valley growers and I have had discussions as a result of his prompting with Ministers in in the different departments, not only about Lea Valley growers, but also about the horticulture sector more generally, and I will update him on that in response to his letter. I thank him for saying that my thank him for saying that my answers so far were acceptable. Hopefully that one is too Al Pinkerton.

Question number ten. Pinkerton. Question number ten.

12:11

Chris McDonald MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Stockton North, Labour)

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Mr. Speaker. Minister, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Cooperation with our EU counterparts is vitally important when it comes to energy security. I recently travelled to the Wind Europe Conference in Madrid, where I joined other European Ministers to discuss how recent global events have shown that we have to work together to deliver on our energy security. We have held constructive discussions with the EU on the internal electricity market and those electricity market and those continue. Doctor Al Pinkerton.

12:11

Michael Shanks MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Geopolitical instability, British households remain particularly exposed to volatile.

12:11

Dr Al Pinkerton MP (Surrey Heath, Liberal Democrat)

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Global energy. >> And indeed, Ofcom have announced a. >> 13% rise in the energy price from July. Given that there are interconnectors with six European countries already. Does the Minister agree with a coterie of esteemed energy economists that the single greatest thing that this government could do to to strengthen our energy security, drive long term investment in renewable energy and bring down

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bills, is to recouple our electricity market with that of the European Union. Minister.

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Minister. Well, I do agree with him. This is a this is an absolutely bizarre is a this is an absolutely bizarre situation, Mr. Speaker, where we have chuntering from the frontbench about the fact that we've got interconnections with Europe, which interconnections with Europe, which we have had for decades. They are important to our energy security. They were under both governments,

12:12

Michael Shanks MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)

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They were under both governments, and it is an absurd position. He is absolutely right to say that in a moment of geopolitical uncertainty, the closer links with Europe are important. Are interconnectors are both import and export every single day to the benefit of consumers in Britain, we do want to see much more efficient energy trading, and that that is why we are working on those formal negotiations about the EU internal electricity market and why it is important for Britain.

12:12

Q13. What assessment he has made of the potential implications for his policies of the use of Chinese-manufactured solar panels by Great British Energy. (900225

Bradley Thomas number 13, sir. >> Bradley Thomas number 13, sir. >> Minister thank you, Mr. Speaker. The UK's current legislation under the 2015 Modern Slavery Act drives industry action via due diligence and transparency, to tackle forced labour in supply chains for solar labour in supply chains for solar panels. All procurement conducted under both government and GBE contracts are required to meet those standards.

12:13

Michael Shanks MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Xinjiang Uyghur region of China is estimated to provide 45% of the world's solar grade polysilicon. 68% of UK panels are estimated to come from China. Two thirds of NHS trusts are dependent on Chinese

12:13

Bradley Thomas MP (Bromsgrove, Conservative)

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solar. The government has said that GB Energy is committed to having a supply chain free from slave labour by spring 2025, but a Politico investigation has revealed that investigation has revealed that five out of seven of the contracts that GB energy has provided for schools can't guarantee that schools can't guarantee that they're free from forced labour. The GB Solar Stewardship Stewardship Initiative pledges to Stewardship Initiative pledges to ensure there's no slave labour, but there's no guarantee of 100% elimination of this from the supply chain.

What is the government going to do to reduce this from supply chain and wean the UK off Chinese made infrastructure?

12:14

Michael Shanks MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)

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Reduce the question. >> Reduce the question. >> Next, I will help. >> Well, look, firstly, can I agree with them as I did during the passage of the GB energy bill, passage of the GB energy bill, about how important it is as a country. We tackle modern slavery right across supply chains and right across supply chains and right across the economy. And it's right that we take action on this. So we are tackling forced labour where we find it in global supply chains, and we want to go further.

GBE will be a leader in how we tackle this, and they have set up a function within to look at sustainable supply chains and to ensure that they are free from from from that.

12:14

Q14. What steps his Department is taking to regulate heat networks. (900226)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Question number 14, please. speaker, for too long, heat networks have been left unregulated with consumers paying the price. That is why I am pleased that we have now established Ofgem as the heat network sector regulator, delivering statutory redress, advice and advocacy to protect households. We aim to develop the regulatory regulatory framework further and recently concluded a further and recently concluded a consultation on mandating minimum technical standards.

12:14

Martin McCluskey MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Inverclyde and Renfrewshire West, Labour)

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Tracy Gilbert. answer. Can I also place on record my thanks to him for coming to meet my constituents from Salter Street and Saltire Square, and for listening to their long running issues that they have had been facing with their district heating networks. I welcome the regulation that this government has brought forward. Can my hon. Friend confirm that data on pricing will now be that data on pricing will now be needed to be reported quarterly to Ofgem, and that this will help increase transparency for my increase transparency for my constituents and others?

12:15

Tracy Gilbert MP (Edinburgh North and Leith, Labour)

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Minister thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was very pleased to meet my hon. Friend's constituents in Edinburgh and discuss the issues that they face with their heat network. The poor experience that they have had is why an example of why we introduced this regulation. I really commend her for the campaign that she has been running on their behalf. She is right that under the new regulatory framework, heat network suppliers will be required to submit pricing data quarterly to Ofgem. Improving oversight.

12:15

Martin McCluskey MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Inverclyde and Renfrewshire West, Labour)

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Gregory Campbell. Oh, sorry. Jim Shannon. Speaker. I don't have any. Can I first of all welcome the Minister's response to the hon. Lady as well, and the of course, the issue of regulation, regulation of heat networks isn't just an issue for the hon. Lady's constituency of Edinburgh, North and Leith, as the Minister well understands. So my request to the Minister will be. And I know he's one of the Ministers who will respond very positively, make sure that we in Northern Ireland are able to take advantage of the opportunity that the hon.

Lady has put forward in her question to the Minister and the good answer. Thank you so much.

12:16

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Gentleman will know that I always take a keen interest in Northern Irish politics and actually spent this morning on an SAE committee delivering the the the reduction in bills through the removal of the row, which we've got through committee this morning. So I'm more than happy to discuss this further with them about how this might operate in Northern Ireland.

12:16

Martin McCluskey MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Inverclyde and Renfrewshire West, Labour)

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Kerry McCarthy 15 Mr Speaker. pay tribute to my hon. Friend for her leadership on this issue? And I continued leadership and I and our previous leadership. The UK is a global leader on carbon pricing and nature recovery. We are committed to strengthening carbon markets to help us achieve our climate and nature goals. At London Climate Action Week, we will set out our Action Week, we will set out our work to centre integrity and to build scale in these markets through the Coalition to Grow Carbon Markets, and the Carbon Markets, and the consultation response will be published later this year.

12:17

Katie White MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Leeds North West, Labour)

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I thank the Minister for that

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response and I welcome the UK's leadership. Investors are concerned that the. Role of nature. Based solutions within carbon market frameworks is not being fully recognised. So, as she says, with London Climate Action Week fast approaching. Can she reassure fast approaching. Can she reassure investors that the government does see nature based solutions as crucial to our collective efforts to tackle climate change, and that

12:17

Kerry McCarthy MP (Bristol East, Labour)

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to tackle climate change, and that we will be pursuing this during upcoming article six negotiations? >> Minister.

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Minister. Can I thank my hon. Friend once again, and can I assure her and investors that nature based solutions are central to our response to this. London is a centre of carbon markets, and we want to protect that. We have been focusing on the coalition to Grow Carbon Markets, which we will be working on at the London Climate Action Week, but we would love to work with her to make sure that we're giving that reassurance and that integrity and come forward with the necessary proposals.

with the necessary proposals.

12:18

Katie White MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Leeds North West, Labour)

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So. Desmond Swayne.

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Does she plan to allow clean community energy companies to sell power directly to households and businesses?

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businesses? Minister. I thank you. The we are pursuing that through the Local Power Plan,

12:18

Rt Hon Sir Desmond Swayne MP (New Forest West, Conservative)

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that through the Local Power Plan, and we are intending for that to happen. >> Lowestoft Adam Dance. >> Question number one.

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Mr. Speaker. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today we set out the proposed level for the seventh carbon Budget as new

12:18

Katie White MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Leeds North West, Labour)

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seventh carbon Budget as new research from CBI economics shows, over a million workers are now supported by the UK's net zero economy. This comes after 2025 set a new record for solar generation, and already in 2026, we have set a new record for offshore wind generation. We're taking these generation. We're taking these steps because they are the right choice for energy security, for investment in good jobs and growth, and for doing the right thing for and for doing the right thing for future generations and preventing climate breakdown.

12:18

Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)

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Adam Dance Mr.

12:19

Adam Dance MP (Yeovil, Liberal Democrat)

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Rocketed from 78. >> February to around 98 per litre now for Nick, who farms in South Petherton, price rises mean an extra £7,000 per week costs that he extra £7,000 per week costs that he basically has to take on the chin. So can the Minister tell Yeovil farmers what steps he's taken to

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support them with the cost of red diesel? Will we take this issue incredibly seriously, including by incredibly seriously, including by talking to the CMA about making sure that the pricing of this is sure that the pricing of this is fair and we continue to monitor this and and look at what further action can be necessary.

12:19

Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)

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action can be necessary. >> Euan Stainbank my constituents, Gillian and Ros, work to MP and started retraining in 2024 following the announcement of the following the announcement of the Gainsborough refinery closing in 2023. However, they were recently denied support due to limits on the Grangemouth Workers Training Guarantee. Will the government, alongside the Scottish Government, review the Grangemouth Workers Training guarantee to extend support to workers like Gillian and Ros?

12:19

Euan Stainbank MP (Falkirk, Labour)

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Minister. has done in supporting the workers from Grangemouth. I wrote to him earlier this week on the particular case of his two constituents. The training fund was set up to provide that support. We will continue to look at it and I am happy to meet with them to discuss it further.

12:20

Michael Shanks MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)

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Claire Coutinho thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to offer my condolences to the Secretary of State on the death of his mother. It is clear that she was a remarkable woman and clearly much loved by her family. Now, I have a yes or no question for the Secretary of State. Can he guarantee that not a single solar panel put on British primary schools by his government has been schools by his government has been produced by Chinese slave labour? Yes or no?

12:20

Rt Hon Claire Coutinho MP (East Surrey, Conservative)

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First. her kind words about my mum? And if you'll allow me, Mr. Speaker, I feel incredibly sad to have lost her, but very lucky to have had 56 years with an amazing mum who who taught me values of kindness,

12:20

Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)

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kindness and warmth and love and justice. And I think it's a reminder, certainly to me, of what really matters most in our lives. really matters most in our lives. But but I really thank sincerely thank her for the message she sent thank her for the message she sent me. Look on the question about the use of forced labour. We take this incredibly seriously. We inherited incredibly seriously. We inherited a regime from the last government, which we applied in the early stages of what GB Energy was doing.

stages of what GB Energy was doing. But she will know that through the passage of the GB Energy bill, we strengthen the commitment of GB Energy. Frances O'Grady is now the champion of dealing with slave labour, so I can absolutely assure her we will do everything we can to prevent the use of forced labour.

12:21

Rt Hon Claire Coutinho MP (East Surrey, Conservative)

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Continue. >> Continue. >> Well, Mr. Speaker, there were words there, but there was no guarantee. So let me just remind the House that he has sold his the House that he has sold his entire agenda as selling moral leadership to the rest of the world, but there is no moral leadership in but there is no moral leadership in sending British children to schools powered by Chinese slaves. Now, on the 2nd of May, our electricity grid almost breached its frequency limit that has the potential to cause nationwide blackouts.

The Secretary of State's plans are making it harder and harder to balance the grid. There is no denying that. So can he confirm who is legally accountable if we have a blackout, thanks to grid instability, and what repercussions would that person face?

12:22

Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)

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So, sir, I'm. >> Afraid she's indulging in the worst sort of scaremongering to justify her anti clean energy agenda. And I have to say to her, agenda. And I have to say to her, it's incredibly sad what's happened to the Secretary of State. She used to believe in clean energy. And and to believe in clean energy. And and today a report comes out from CBI economics showing a million jobs in net zero. And what does she do? She starts quibbling with the small print and saying it doesn't represent the views of CBI.

When the CBI chief economist is doing is actually advocating for it.

12:22

Daniel Francis MP (Bexleyheath and Crayford, Labour)

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Daniel Francis thank. that the. commitments. >> Linked to the development consent order for the Riverside consent order for the Riverside Energy Park in Belvedere, which was granted in April 2020 by the previous government, have yet to be previous government, have yet to be delivered at three mitigation sites in my constituency at Barnehurst Open Space, Whitehall Lane and Slade Green and Bearsted Woods. So could the Minister advise what action is available if a developer does not fulfil their biodiversity net gain commitments in a timely manner?

12:23

Katie White MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Leeds North West, Labour)

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Minister. issue? We need to make sure that when we are pushing forward with our planning developments, they are done in line with communities and delivering on the commitments are upheld and would very much welcome to hear more about the cases he talks about. I will talk to my forward. spokesperson.

12:23

Edward Morello MP (West Dorset, Liberal Democrat)

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Mr. speaker, the UK should be >> Mr. speaker, the UK should be the world leader in greenhouse gas removal, but the sector is struggling to attract funding and struggling to attract funding and off takers because of uncertainty about government support for gas. So will the government please So will the government please confirm when it plans to publish its response to the independent Jaeger review and whether or not the department is considering the

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launch of a UK Buyers Club? Along the similar lines to the EU system. Minister.

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Minister. Well, he's right on the ambition and that's why we commissioned the independent review by my noble independent review by my noble friend Lord Whitehead, and we will respond to that review in due course. We are ambitious about the role that Gers can play.

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role that Gers can play. Kerry McCarthy can I. Thank the Minister for the £13.5 million for the Temple Quarter heat

12:24

Michael Shanks MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)

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million for the Temple Quarter heat network in my constituency, where Bristol leads with city lead, others can follow. So what is the government doing to support other places? To follow our example and get an investment into decarbonising our city?

12:24

Kerry McCarthy MP (Bristol East, Labour)

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Minister thank you, Mr. Speaker. I know my hon. Friend is a big champion, not just for Bristol but for climate action more generally, and Bristol is one of the trailblazing heat network cities and the city partnership. There is a model for what other local authorities can consider. I am pleased that we have announced nearly £35 million for further development of heat networks.

12:24

Martin McCluskey MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Inverclyde and Renfrewshire West, Labour)

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Ben Spencer yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Why does he think Tony Blair is so critical of his policies?

12:24

Dr Ben Spencer MP (Runnymede and Weybridge, Conservative)

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Jo Stevens well, look, Tony >> Jo Stevens well, look, Tony Blair has lots of interesting views, Mr. speaker, I'm actually old enough to remember when Tony Blair enough to remember when Tony Blair was a great advocate of climate leadership in this country. But look, fundamentally, what I believe and what this government believes is that unless we get off the fossil fuel roller coaster, and I think all members of this House have to confront this, we will never get the energy security and lower bills that all of our constituents want.

Speaker.

12:25

Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)

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The River. potential for tidal energy, with the Severn Estuary Commission finding it has the potential to generate up to 7% of the UK's electricity. Will my right hon. Friend agree to meet with me to discuss how the government plans to take this forward, and how we can ensure some of the resulting good Gloucester.

12:25

Alex McIntyre MP (Gloucester, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We are grateful for the Severn Estuary Commission's work, and we recognise the potential benefits that tidal range can bring to our energy system. For now, the government remains open to considering well-developed proposals for harnessing the tidal range energy in the bays and estuaries around our coastlines, but I am very happy further.

12:25

Katie White MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Leeds North West, Labour)

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Ayoub Khan. Not here. Sir Julian Smith, who is here.

12:26

Rt Hon Sir Julian Smith MP (Skipton and Ripon, Conservative)

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Across Yorkshire are really. >> Before about the local power plan and the ability for communities to sell that to small businesses. The question just came up this has to happen. We have to do everything we can to lower the cost for rural small businesses.

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Will he make sure that that happens? He's absolutely right. This is a crucial aspect of the local power crucial aspect of the local power plan. We need to support communities to develop the projects, but then create a market where they can sell that electricity locally. can sell that electricity locally. We're working with Ofgem and with partners to make sure that that can happen, and we'll see more in due course.

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John Hayes. Three gigawatts of offshore wind. Secured at the start. Of this year.

12:26

Michael Shanks MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)

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>> Of this year. >> With allocation round seven being in place. Last year, we would have seen gas generation cut by a third and we would have seen wholesale prices down by 13%. It's clear that we have to double down on the clean energy revolution. We can't be distracted by yet more fossil fuel work. So will the Secretary of State outline how Secretary of State outline how we're going to push forward that clean energy transition, particularly with offshore wind?

12:27

Tom Hayes MP (Bournemouth East, Labour)

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So my hon. Friend makes a really important point. If I can actually praise the last government, Mr. Speaker, some of what they did on renewables actually has helped reduce the wholesale costs that we face. The problem is they've now abandoned that position. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The only answer to the crisis we face is to go further and faster on getting off fossil fuels on to clean power.

12:27

Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)

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Robin Swann thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

12:27

Robin Swann MP (South Antrim, Ulster Unionist Party)

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Innovative carbon capture businesses with real export potential, but many of those UK clean technologies face a gap between successful pilot innovation and that first commercial deployment. Can I ask the deployment. Can I ask the government, what steps are they taking to ensure that these high value opportunities can be scaled, value opportunities can be scaled, thereby supporting jobs, investment and growth? And would the state accept an invitation to you to

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visit Nuada Minister? Well, he's right to highlight this. We have provided funding to support the development of carbon capture projects in Northern Ireland, such as cations via hydrogen reactor in Belfast. We welcome engagement on further CCUs welcome engagement on further CCUs projects. It is a really important part of the industrialisation and I am happy to engage in it further.

12:28

Michael Shanks MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)

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Speaker. >> The Secretary of State has praised the previous government's praised the previous government's role in rolling out renewables, but what they didn't do is seek to coordinate energy projects, particularly nationally significant infrastructure projects. And in Suffolk Coastal, it's a huge issue. It's one that I've raised at length and continually with the Minister. Will the Secretary of State meet with me to talk about what we could do to seek a better coordination, including including an energy levy to enforce coordination?

12:28

Jenny Riddell-Carpenter MP (Suffolk Coastal, Labour)

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My hon. Friend raises an important point, and the strategic spatial energy plan is absolutely, precisely, which will be coming out later this year, is absolutely designed to make sure that we have the kind of coordination that she's after, and I'm very happy to meet with her and talk about it.

12:28

Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)

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Ben Obese-Jecty speaker.

12:29

Ben Obese-Jecty MP (Huntingdon, Conservative)

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By now, the Secretary of State will be well aware of my opposition to the 1900 acre East Park Energy solar farm in my constituency. solar farm in my constituency. We're now at the business end of the planning process with it sat before the Planning Inspectorate before the Planning Inspectorate Inspectorate ahead of a decision by the Secretary of State later this year. Would he be able to outline to me, roughly, when he expects to have to take a decision on the planning application? And also ahead of that, would he meet with myself and the Member for North Bedfordshire to discuss our concerns around it not being the right solution for our local area

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and our constituents? Yeah. Well, I thank the hon. Member for his question, but because it's for his question, but because it's a live planning application under independent examination, I am not it's not possible for me to comment further. I'd obviously encourage

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him and his constituents to register with the Planning Inspectorate, if they haven't already, so that they can share their views. Jayne Kirkham.

12:29

Michael Shanks MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)

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>> Jayne Kirkham. >> I welcome. >> The CFD for geothermal and in fact, the Secretary of State has fact, the Secretary of State has been down to see geothermal in Cornwall, a policy indication from the government that Geothermal could form. Part of our energy mix will be really useful for confidence in the industry so it can grow.

12:30

Jayne Kirkham MP (Truro and Falmouth, Labour )

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I thank my hon. Friend for her continued championing of this. It was very exciting to see the opening of the first projects in February. We are focusing on the local heat networks, but we will continue to engage and we're glad to see that the CFD projects are coming to fruition.

12:30

Katie White MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Leeds North West, Labour)

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Richard Touch thank you, Mr. Speaker. Once again, the front bench has inadvertently misled the House when they say there is a single price internationally for gas. Gas in the US is 80% cheaper than it is here in the UK. So, Mr. Speaker, when will the Secretary of State grant oil and gas licences in jackdaw, Rosebank and other fields in the North Sea to increase supply in the North Sea to increase supply to bring down the bills? Yes.

12:30

Richard Tice MP (Boston and Skegness, Reform UK)

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Mr. Speaker, how many times I tell him he doesn't seem to get it. We are. We are operating. We are price takers, not price makers. Even the even the party or even the party opposite who want to drill every last drop. Don't claim it will reduce bills. The truth is, he said he would wage war if he calms said he would wage war if he calms down for a minute. He said he would wage war on clean energy that is, waging war on jobs across our country and energy security.

12:31

Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)

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Mr. speaker. reactors at Hartlepool reached another major milestone, with submission of an application for a generic design assessment. Given the importance of retaining Hartlepool's world class nuclear workforce and ensuring there is no cliff edge when the existing power station approaches the end of its operational life, can the Minister reassure me that every effort will reassure me that every effort will be made to maintain the outstanding momentum to build this project and accelerate progress wherever possible?

12:31

Mr Jonathan Brash MP (Hartlepool, Labour)

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Well, I thank him for his question and I'm incredibly excited about this. The project, of course, Energy and Centrica and I've met with them both to talk about it. This is part of this government overseeing the biggest nuclear building programme in half a century. And that is absolutely part of the Clean Power mission.

12:31

Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)

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Andrew Stone. >> For not approving the Morgan and Morecambe Wind Farm cabling corridor and deferring the decision for six months for further for six months for further consultation. I know how much he wants to achieve his targets, how difficult he would have taken that decision. Myself and cross-party local and councils have written to him to articulate the alternative him to articulate the alternative routes that are available. So could I ask him to use the six months to consider those alternative routes? consider those alternative routes?

12:32

Mr Andrew Snowden MP (Fylde, Conservative)

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Well, look. would not be appropriate for me to comment on. We obviously look at every single application on its merits, and even though we have ambitions in place for where we want to get to, individual planning, applications are considered on the individual merits that they're presented on. Hope.

12:32

Michael Shanks MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)

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Valley is a cement. Decarbonisation project.

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Prevent 3 million tonnes of CO2 from entering the atmosphere every year. Will the Minister commit to year. Will the Minister commit to establishing a clear route to market for industrial carbon capture projects beyond track one

12:33

capture projects beyond track one and track two clusters, which would offer projects like peak cluster greater certainty? >> Well, we do see carbon capture

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Well, we do see carbon capture as a hugely important part of how we decarbonise, and we have supported clusters already. We are supported clusters already. We are looking at what a future model could look like, but equally, we do need to see other projects coming forward on commercial terms to make sure that they are viable. But I continue to meet with all the clusters, and I chair the CCUs Task clusters, and I chair the CCUs Task Force to make sure we are doing as much as we can.

12:33

Michael Shanks MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)

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Martin Vickers thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last Saturday, I met with representatives from a number of well established hospitality businesses in my constituency. One of them is facing an energy cost increase of £70,000 this year. Clearly that is unsustainable. Can Ministers outline what they're doing to prevent to prevent doing to prevent to prevent unchecked energy increases going year on year?

12:33

Martin Vickers MP (Brigg and Immingham, Conservative)

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Minister thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I mentioned in answer.

12:33

Chris McDonald MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Stockton North, Labour)

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To an earlier. intermediaries and the proper functioning of the market, and subject to finding parliamentary time, we intend to bring forward the opportunity for Ofgem to act as a regulator there, but clearly it identifies or he identifies in his question, why it's so important that we return to energy stability in the UK through our own home-grown clean energy.

12:34

Rt Hon Sammy Wilson MP (East Antrim, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Sammy Wilson thank you, Mr. Speaker. Earlier, in an earlier answer, the Minister outlined the amount of money being spent on amount of money being spent on carbon capture. Has he considered the impact of his net zero policies the impact of his net zero policies on carbon release? Last week I visited a site in the sperrins visited a site in the sperrins where to build a wind farm. 250,000 metric tons of peat are to be stripped from the hillside in order to put in the infrastructure, and that's similar in peatlands all over England.

What what impact has the Minister made of that, and will he consider?

12:34

Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)

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Come on. Minister. >> Well, look, he and I go back a long way. So I thought I would answer this. Look, it is important. answer this. Look, it is important. It is important that you look at the whole life and whole context of carbon emissions in in projects. I carbon emissions in in projects. I do say to him, though, if he shares our desire to reduce carbon

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emissions, renewable energy and nuclear energy is the right way forward. Lord. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last September.

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Last September. I met with the Minister for Energy Consumers about people who'd been adversely impacted by spray foam insulation that had been incorrectly installed. What steps

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incorrectly installed. What steps has the Minister of the Department taken to help and give consideration to remediation and support for those affected? Minister.

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Minister. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We are considering a range of options around remediation, not just in

12:35

Tom Gordon MP (Harrogate and Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

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around remediation, not just in these in a number of schemes that the department is responsible for, mostly schemes that were operated by the previous government and will come forward with proposals soon.

12:35

Martin McCluskey MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Inverclyde and Renfrewshire West, Labour)

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Final questions. >> For my condolences to the Secretary of State as well. He will be familiar with the Russian backed be familiar with the Russian backed Aquind application for a submarine interconnector that will cut through Portsmouth Naval Dockyard. Affecting my constituency to France, the Ministry of Defence has raised national security concerns. We've been waiting for over a year for a decision on the application from the Secretary of State. When will he issue one?

12:36

Rt Hon Suella Braverman KC MP (Fareham and Waterlooville, Reform UK)

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No, sir.

12:36

Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)

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Well, first of all, can I thank the right hon. Lady for her kind words about my mum? She will know that, unfortunately, I can't that, unfortunately, I can't comment on the progress of planning applications, but I will definitely

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department. Right. Well, let the front page Come Come to Come to the Come to the Urgent

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Question Helen Whately. Thank you. Mr. Speaker. To ask the Secretary of State to make a statement on the publication of the Milburn report into Young People

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and Work. Minister thank. You, Mr. Speaker. Last week, Alan Milburn produced

12:37

Helen Whately MP (Faversham and Mid Kent, Conservative)

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>> Last week, Alan Milburn produced a powerful report on the crisis of opportunity facing young people. The Secretary of State asked him to The Secretary of State asked him to lead this work because it is a crisis that has been ignored for

12:37

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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far too long, where far too many young people are leaving education and not getting the chance to work. and not getting the chance to work. The human and financial impact on individuals can last a lifetime, individuals can last a lifetime, and the economic costs are significant. What is clear is that this is not a feature of the last this is not a feature of the last year or two, but a deep seated and long term issue. But unlike the party opposite, Mr. Speaker, we party opposite, Mr.

Speaker, we will not stand back and abandon young people in the face of this crisis. During their last few years in power, the number of young people not in education, employment or training rose by a quarter of a million. A shameful legacy. Rather than holding young people in contempt. We believe in them and we are making opportunity for young people a national cause. We have begun with the Youth Guarantee. More work experience, workplace training and apprenticeships. Hiring bonuses for employers who take on young people in regular or apprenticeship roles, and subsidised employment for young people who remain out of work for 18 months.

In total, Mr. Speaker, half a million opportunities for young people to work, train or undertake apprenticeships. We have undertaken welfare reform to remove barriers in the benefit system that trap young people. We have changed the law so claimants on sickness and disability benefits have the right to try work without the fear of automatically triggering a benefit reassessment. We have narrowed the gap between the health element and standard allowance. A perverse incentive of the last government's making. And we are investing in genuinely personalised employment support.

Mr. speaker, we have made a good start, but last week's interim report is a call to action. That is why this government is putting work and opportunity at the heart of everything we do, and we will go even further as Alan Milburn's work on his final report and recommendations come forward.

12:39

Helen Whately MP (Faversham and Mid Kent, Conservative)

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Hello, Mid Leicestershire. Secretary. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I'm grateful to you for granting this urgent question. It's a shame the Minister had to be dragged here. Minister had to be dragged here. The Secretary of State was only too eager to talk about this last week on the telly. But where is he today? on the telly. But where is he today? Why so quiet now? I think we all know because the Secretary of State has been caught out telling the devastating truth about Labour MPs.

Who can we tax in order to pay benefits to others? That's what Labour MPs really think. That is what this government has done. Put up people's taxes, spent more on benefits and left hard working people with less to live off. And once again, their shenanigans are getting in the way of something we really should be talking about every morning. A million young people wake up in Britain with nothing to do and nowhere to go. This is a disaster for our country, our economy, and worst of all, for all those young people.

Labour's lost generation. The Minister said this started under us. Yes, the numbers did start going up from the pandemic, so this wasn't a surprise for them. Yet here we are after almost two years of them in office and Labour still has no plan. All they have done is make the situation worse. And of course, commission this big report. I welcome Alan Milburn's contribution. It is a serious analysis, but Milburn himself says this. It's just a diagnosis. There are no solutions here, no actual answers or policies.

In fact, he even tells us the things the government has been doing. Their piecemeal programmes are not going to work. He also says after six months of inactivity, young people are far less likely to ever work. This is urgent, but where is their urgency? Yes, this is not the first time Labour have let down a young people. NEETs soared to 17% after Labour's last stint in government. Conservatives turn that around to less than 10% in 2019. Of course, Covid undermined that progress, but the Labour government has turned a post-pandemic problem into a crisis.

Taxing jobs, tying up businesses in red tape, making it riskier and more expensive to hire a young person, destroying hundreds of thousands of jobs in retail and hospitality. Like many young people, one of my first jobs was working in a local pub, but they've pulled the plug on that opportunity for this generation. Whenever we do get to hear their plans, I think we know what they will be spending more money and taxing people more to pay for that. The wrong answer? The answer is jobs back businesses, cut

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taxes, get rid of red tape, get government out of the way and. Reform welfare. Yeah.

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It's two minutes. We've got to. Yes, it is two minutes. It's always been two minutes. I've not changed the rules. minutes. I've not changed the rules. When I grant it, please stick to within the rules. It helps me because we said we're going to

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start off trying to adhere to it. Minister thank you, Mr. Speaker. And I have to say that that was a And I have to say that that was a predictable set of questions from the hon. Lady who has the audacity to label the needs of this country. Labour's lost generation, when it

12:42

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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increased 250 000. The number of NEETs in their last few years in office. She tells us that there office. She tells us that there were no solutions in this report. Hardly a surprise for anybody paying attention, Mr. Speaker, paying attention, Mr. Speaker, given that this is an interim report with further recommendations report with further recommendations to follow. She raises National Insurance contributions. But what does Alan Milburn actually say in does Alan Milburn actually say in his report? Let me direct the House's attention to paragraph 268 of the report.

Mr. Speaker, it says, and I quote, the UK's Neet crisis is much more long term and deep seated than any decisions taken in the last few years. And at paragraph 266 on NICs specifically, again, I quote it is worth remembering that those under 21 remain exempt from employer NICs and as the review has already highlighted, the increase in youth inactivity long precedes any recent changes. She chirps. I am in denial, Mr. Speaker. This is their record, their problem and It has been granted.

I do not need the front bench to come in and then start thinking they can shoot the Minister down.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker, because of course there was no explanation or apology from the hon. Lady for the fact that it was her party that left almost 1 million young people not in education, employment or training. A predictable omission, training. A predictable omission, but an unacceptable one nonetheless, because discussing the rise in NEETs in recent years without discussing the actions of the past conservative government is rather conservative government is rather like staging hamlet without the Prince of Denmark. And on my right hon.

Friend the Secretary of State's comments on what he said has been the same ever since he was appointed. He has said that we have to change the question the system asks from what benefits are you entitled to? To how do we help you change your life? That is what matters, Mr. Speaker. That is exactly what this government is doing. Fixing the broken welfare system that we inherited from the party opposite. Rebalancing Universal Credit. Implementing right to try tackling their backlog on access to work.

And of course, our £2.5 billion investment in the Youth Guarantee. That is the welfare reform this government is delivering. Mr. Speaker, with opportunity and work, especially for young people at its heart and the guarantee of a safety net for those who need it. Abrahams.

12:45

Debbie Abrahams MP (Oldham East and Saddleworth, Labour)

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Thank you so much, Mr. Speaker, >> Thank you so much, Mr. Speaker, and I welcome Alan Milburn's report from the Select Committee. Ourselves are actually in the Ourselves are actually in the concluding stages are our own youth employment, Education and training employment, Education and training inquiry. What we do take account of is particularly the drivers for that. And my right hon. Friend is absolutely right. As the UK Millennium Cohort Study has showed, more than half of NEETs currently have experienced adverse and persistent child poverty and family adversity over the last 15 years, which has contributed to the current level of needs.

And I really do think the right hon. Lady should should recognise that and apologise. But is is my my right hon. Friend is concerned as as me. That we mustn't forget that in addition to young people, there are also hundreds of thousands of disabled people who have had the lack of opportunity provided, who haven't had the profile that that our young people are getting. And they also need to be considered within this and particularly in relation to employment support for them and young people.

12:46

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Minister. just for her question, but for the work that the Select Committee has done on their inquiry. And indeed, I know that she had Alan Milburn I know that she had Alan Milburn along to the committee recently to speak to the work that he is doing. She is absolutely right to call for She is absolutely right to call for a focus on disabled people, too, and the work that we are doing around the connector work agenda does provide significant support to people.

There is, of course, more that we can always do, but on this, as with those not in employment, education or training aged 16 to 84, we are determined to act. We have a programme to do so and we take this extremely seriously.

12:47

Steve Darling MP (Torbay, Liberal Democrat)

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Steve Darling Liberal Democrat spokesperson. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and it's a pleasure. >> To follow the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth, who always has something of value to bring to has something of value to bring to the chamber. With a million youngsters, not an employment, education or training, this is education or training, this is something that has been brewing for many years, but sadly it has been exacerbated by the new Labour government. We've seen the sad decline of our high streets over the last 20 years.

A quarter of a million jobs lost in retail in the last five years and in the last well since the last Budget, a 100 000 jobs being lost in hospitality. The dual impact of National Insurance, job tax and also business rates has hit hard. Whitbread have cut three 3800 jobs across the United Kingdom with the closure of two restaurants in my constituency, one in Torquay and one in Paignton. I'd like to welcome most of the findings of the Alan Milburn Review for the Liberal Democrats.

We welcome the sense of direction that this goes within, but I'd like to ask some key questions to the Minister. What plans do you have? What plans does the Minister have to bring forward some clear economic plans to grow jobs for young people, but also, how can we grow our greater connections with European partners to grow our economy?

12:48

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Minister. Minister's recent intent to work more closely with European colleagues in partnership because of the economic benefits that that of the economic benefits that that can yield. He is right to recognise that this is a problem many years that this is a problem many years in the making. And can I welcome the broad support from the Liberal Democrat, from Liberal Democrat colleagues for the interim review, and I hope that that will be the same when the final review comes forward with recommendations.

In terms of plans to bring forward jobs for young people, I would point him to recently announced interventions by the Secretary of State to provide £3,000 to small and medium sized enterprises hiring apprenticeships and £2,000 to any employer who hires a young person who has been on Universal Credit for more than six months. This will make a significant difference and

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is the right thing to do. Johanna Baxter thank you, Mr.

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Johanna Baxter thank you, Mr. Speaker. Too often young people are written off as lacking ambition when the reality is that they are when the reality is that they are lacking the opportunities of good work. More than 40% of young people not in education, employment or not in education, employment or training said that finding fulfilling work was their top

12:49

Johanna Baxter MP (Paisley and Renfrewshire South, Labour)

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fulfilling work was their top priority. Despite that, in my area under the SNP run Renfrewshire Council and SNP run Holyrood government, employability services are being cut 30% failing too many of our young people. So can my hon. Friend set out what steps the government is taking to work with the Scottish Government to protect vital employability services, to ensure apprenticeship opportunities for young people in my area.

12:50

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can I thank my hon. Friend for her question? She knows that I met with an employment support provider in an employment support provider in her constituency recently, and I was grateful for her. Welcome to. She is absolutely right to say that She is absolutely right to say that young people do not lack ambition young people do not lack ambition to find work. This is a failure of the state's making, not a failure of young people. And if she has specific concerns about cuts to employment support in her area, I would very much welcome a letter from her setting out those challenges, and I will raise those issues on her behalf.

12:50

Mr Peter Bedford MP (Mid Leicestershire, Conservative)

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Peter Bedford thank you, Mr. Speaker. As the report highlights, Speaker. As the report highlights, the number of NEETs is set to rise to 1.25 million over the next five years, and if something is done, the government need to listen to the wealth creators that create the jobs that so many of our young people need. Indeed, Alan Milburn's people need. Indeed, Alan Milburn's report says that 84% of young people really do want to get a job to get education or training. But because the policies of his government is making that even harder.

So given that the government is looking for a reset moment, perhaps over the summer, could I ask the Minister to speak to his Cabinet colleagues to look again at the increase in national insurance, to look again at the increases in business rates, and to look again at repealing the most damaging aspects of the Employment Rights Act that is doing so much damage to the life prospects of our young people? Yes.

12:51

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My the hon. Gentleman has elevated me to Cabinet level, something that is at least premature, if unlikely to least premature, if unlikely to ever happen, I suspect. But may I just refer him to the report? just refer him to the report? Because from the sound of it, he has not read Milburn's report. He says, and I quote, the UK's Neet crisis is much more long term and deep seated than any decisions taken in the last few years, with particular reference to National Insurance.

He says, and I quote, it is worth remembering that those under 21 remain exempt from employer NICs and as the review has already highlighted, the increase in youth inactivity long precedes any recent changes to NICs.

12:52

Damien Egan MP (Bristol North East, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to welcome the interim report and to welcome the interim report and ask a question about work experience. When I was at school, this was typically organised by this was typically organised by teachers and gave children a peek into worlds that otherwise would be unimaginable. But today, children in my Bristol constituency are in my Bristol constituency are being asked to find their own placements, which obviously disadvantaged children from families that are less well connected. So I'd like to ask, will we be likely to see more organised work experience placements for school children as a result of this review and.

12:53

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Can I thank my hon. Friend for his question? He is entirely right his question? He is entirely right to highlight the value of work experiences and in particular from children from disadvantaged backgrounds who perhaps do not have backgrounds who perhaps do not have the connections that others benefit from. He will be pleased to know that the government is committed to reforming work experience, to break down barriers to opportunity, so that every pupil will have access to two weeks worth of multiple, meaningful and varied workplace experiences throughout key stages three and four, progressively increasing their work readiness as they move through secondary education.

12:53

John Milne MP (Horsham, Liberal Democrat)

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John Milne thank you, Mr. >> John Milne thank you, Mr. Speaker. I welcome the government's Youth Guarantee Scheme and something similar similar operates something similar similar operates in a number of European countries. However, under the proposals, it does not kick in for 18 months. If does not kick in for 18 months. If someone is unemployed for 18 months, the damage is already done. Will the government consider acting earlier? Yeah. Very good.

12:53

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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I can understand the hon. >> I can understand the hon. Gentleman's trepidation, but I fear he has not been made aware of the full range of activity that happens before the 18 month intervention kicks in. The addition of a reframed employment and skills reframed employment and skills review at two weeks, the maintenance of weekly appointments from weeks 3 to 12, with increased focus on personal support to address barriers to work. After three months, the Specialist Youth Guarantee Gateway kicks in, where young people are referred to one of six options including swaps, training, work experience, apprenticeships at six months, the £3,000 Youth Jobs grant for employers recruiting young people kicks in.

This is one part of a range of holistic interventions, Mr. Speaker, which we consider will make a significant difference to the challenge we face.

12:54

Jim McMahon MP (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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Jim McMahon. Isn't the truth. The government's. class jobs like apprenticeships. You know, since the apprenticeship levy was brought in, the number of starts has dropped by 35% and the starts has dropped by 35% and the number of level two starts has dropped by 68%. And even those that did take place, only 16% of them were advertised in the two months that young people were finishing their exams, creating that gap that young people fall through. And so the Milburn Review is welcome and absolutely needed.

And I'm appreciative of the government for starting this process. But can I ask two things? First of all, why can't we close that gap today and say that every public sector employer, whether it's the government itself, a council, the police service or the NHS, must advertise at the point that young people are leaving school, and secondly, that devolution has got to be part of this problem because we cannot command and control from the centre when so much of this is about localised economies.

Yeah.

12:55

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Can I thank my hon. Friend for his question? I certainly agree with him about the power of devolution, something that he and I devolution, something that he and I know only too well from our roles as leaders within the Greater Manchester Combined Authority. But Manchester Combined Authority. But what I hope that he will recognise is that this government is taking a very different approach on apprenticeships and technical education, and that is underpinned by the Prime Minister's revised target, not of 50% of young people going to university, but two thirds of young people in either an apprenticeship or higher education.

12:56

Rt Hon Sir Oliver Dowden MP (Hertsmere, Conservative)

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So, Oliver Dowden thank you, Mr. Speaker. Many young people take Speaker. Many young people take time to adapt to new jobs and simply haven't proved themselves after six months. But with the after six months. But with the coming into force of the Government's Employment Rights Act, they're going to increase the reduce the period for dismissal without fault from two years to six months. Now, many employers have told me this will make them much less likely to employ young people because they fear they won't prove themselves in that time period.

And indeed, after six months to get rid of them, unless they really prove themselves because they fear otherwise, it would be so much harder. Now, this provision is not due to come into force at the beginning of next year, at this very late stage. Can I urge the Minister to look at it again, because it will make a bad situation so much worse for young people.

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I understand the point that the right hon. Gentleman is making, but right hon. Gentleman is making, but I have to say I have rather more faith in young people in the workforce than he seems to. It is workforce than he seems to. It is the case that the Employment Rights Act is an important and once in a generation opportunity to level up

12:57

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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generation opportunity to level up rights in the workplace. This government remains committed to it. >> Meg Hillier.

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Mr. speaker, I very much welcome this report by Alan Milburn, and he highlights the need to work across Sectorally to support young people. I wonder if the Minister could take away the thought that he could pilot, test and, and learn by doing a pilot in Hackney with choices, which works with disabled people and my local mind, which have very good employment training schemes to help people into work. Their success rate is phenomenally higher than DWP success rates, and we'd be than DWP success rates, and we'd be very keen to work with the government on this.

12:57

Dame Meg Hillier MP (Hackney South and Shoreditch, Labour )

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Can I thank my right hon. Friend for her question? She makes an important observation that for us to make successful change in this space, we need to work with a range of partners and providers. I am very happy to propose on the terms that she has, that Hackney be put forward to test some of the initiatives that we would like to take forward in this space. It's not just working with charities, employment support providers that we need to look at in moving we need to look at in moving forward, but also working more holistically across government, with health, with education and other departments.

We are determined to do that work. determined to do that work.

12:58

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Emma Reynolds much, Mr. Speaker. Alan Milburn, in his excellent but devastating report, makes clear that young people most at risk of ending up out of education or employment are likely to go to a further education college, and he

12:58

Munira Wilson MP (Twickenham, Liberal Democrat)

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identifies that 32,000 of those AFA places are currently unfunded. Now, just last year, Mr. Speaker, in her just last year, Mr. Speaker, in her Skills White Paper, the Education Secretary promised, and I quote, Secretary promised, and I quote, increased real terms per pupil funding in the next academic year for 16 to 19 providers. Yet I know for 16 to 19 providers. Yet I know from talking to my local college that per head, funding this year is that per head, funding this year is only going up by 0.55%.

That is a real terms cut and a broken promise, coupled with the lag in funding of up to a year for new students. This is actually disincentivising colleges to take on these pupils. How does the Minister explain that?

12:59

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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I mean, what I would say to the hon. Lady is that the 0.55% increase in 16 to 19 funding rates increase in 16 to 19 funding rates is only one aspect of 16 to 19 funding in the academic year 2026 funding in the academic year 2026 to 27, we will provide nearly £9 billion in 16 to 19. Funding and overall funding per student will rise by 1.66%. Meeting the White Paper commitment by reflecting inflation at the time the spending review was settled.

12:59

Anna Dixon thank you, Mr. Speaker. This excellent report Speaker. This excellent report makes clear that exams can lead to early school disengagement, particularly for children who are neurodiverse. My constituent Danielle's son, repeatedly failed Danielle's son, repeatedly failed his GCSEs, leaving him stressed and undermining his self-confidence. She felt his opportunities would be limited and doors would be closed for him, but thankfully he was encouraged to take functional skills and has now secured a place at Leeds College of Building to learn bricklaying.

So does the Minister agree that early information and awareness around alternative qualifications and pathways, such as functional skills, can help young people fulfil their potential?

13:00

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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I would just absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, Mr. Speaker, and if she has any ideas of how we can extend knowledge and can extend knowledge and availability of such information, I'd be happy to hear them. >> Bob Blackman thank you, Mr. Speaker. Clearly the Minister needs Speaker. Clearly the Minister needs to understand that to create the jobs that we need, we need to encourage the private sector to invest. And in my constituency, every single hospitality venue has halved the number of staff they

13:00

Bob Blackman MP (Harrow East, Conservative)

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employ. And when I've asked the question why they question National Insurance, obviously non-domestic Insurance, obviously non-domestic rates and also the new Employment Rights Act, the key key here is Rights Act, the key key here is that if National Insurance is extended, the holiday, if you like, extended, the holiday, if you like, from from 28 to 20 1 to 24, that will enable people that leave school to get a job and also those that leave university to get a job and de-risk the employment of employers, taking on young people.

13:01

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Minister the hon. Gentleman is correct to highlight that correct to highlight that incentives are needed to encourage employers to hire young people. That is why my right hon. Friend That is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State recently announced the incentives that I have already laid out around supporting young people who have supporting young people who have been on Universal Credit for six months, incentivising employers in financial terms to hire them, and also in apprentices under the age of 25 earning less than £50,000, where there is also an incentive enterprises.

13:01

Jo White. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> I've just. visit. >> Me in Parliament, and. >> Many of their questions were

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Many of their questions were about the increasing. Numbers of young people. On benefits, AI sweeping away jobs and new opportunities and jobs and new opportunities and training for young people. A Red wall MP recognised that issues surrounding youth unemployment is not new, but I'm hugely concerned that young people are now seeing this as their future. I very much welcome the government initiative to have a youth hub in Worksop, and I'm already working with partners I'm already working with partners on this.

But does the Minister agree with me that it's working beyond the DWP and with other partners that we need to work do to to resolve this problem? to resolve this problem?

13:02

Jo White MP (Bassetlaw, Labour)

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I do agree, Mr. Speaker, and I hope my hon. Friend heard what I said in response to my right hon. Friend from Hackney earlier about the need to work holistically, both across government and outside of government, with partners in the charitable sector with employment support companies, etcetera, etcetera, to make sure that we have etcetera, to make sure that we have that range of interventions available so that young people do not do exactly what she outlined not do exactly what she outlined and see a career, a life not in education, employment or training as their future that we must stop.

13:03

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Madam Speaker 70% of.

13:03

Rt Hon Suella Braverman KC MP (Fareham and Waterlooville, Reform UK)

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University just. Wasn't worth it. low quality degrees, people coming out with crippling debt and lower job prospects for graduates? Whilst I welcome many elements in The Milburn Review, isn't it right that if we are to fix this crisis of youth unemployment, what's needed is not tweaks, but an overhaul of vocational and training and a correction to the Blairite obsession with university so that fewer young people get scammed by the great university con. No.

13:03

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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I have to say, Mr. Speaker, that I wouldn't put it quite in the terms utilised by the right hon. terms utilised by the right hon. Lady, but jingoistic rhetoric is a feature of her new place in this feature of her new place in this House. What I would say on that, Mr. Speaker, is, as I said in response to my hon. Friend from Oldham West, this government recognises that it should no longer be a target for any government to send 50% of young people to university.

That is why we have revised the target in such a way that it now is the case that this government's aspiration is that 66% of young people are either in

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higher education or undertaking an apprenticeship. Rachael Maskell thank you, Mr.

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Rachael Maskell thank you, Mr. Speaker. In York, 410 young people are not in education, training or employment. And of course, we know from Alan Milburn's report the causation of that. And particularly, I want to focus on mental health and the fact that we don't have the right support in place for young people, much earlier than the point

13:04

Rachael Maskell MP (York Central, Labour )

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people, much earlier than the point of seeking employment. Will he work with the Department of Health to ensure that we have those systems in place to identify young people who experience mental health challenges, and particularly children with adverse childhood experiences, so that they can be set on a stronger path and build more resilience throughout their childhood to enable them to be prepared for work.

13:05

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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My hon. Friend is absolutely >> My hon. Friend is absolutely right to recognise that many of the challenges faced by young people not in education, employment or not in education, employment or training start at school or even pre-school, and that we need to ensure that there is early intervention in schools, more intervention in schools, more mental health practitioners available to children and young people, and that they are able to receive the support needed at the first possible opportunity because it does blight and affect their future, not just in academic terms with exams, but often for many years beyond that.

So I absolutely agree with her. This underpins many of the proposals put forward by the Department for Education. With their special educational needs

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reforms. We need early intervention and we need greater mental health support for children. Damian Hinds thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. This is an important piece of work from Alan Milburn, but I want to ask the Minister about the principles that will about the principles that will underpin the government's approach. Does he think that other things being equal, if you increase the being equal, if you increase the cost of employing people, that will come at the cost of jobs, and that

13:06

Rt Hon Damian Hinds MP (East Hampshire, Conservative)

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come at the cost of jobs, and that if there is slack in the labour market, then if you do things like reducing probation periods at the same time, at a time when the cost of employing younger people without experience is anyway going up, that that will mean those young people are less likely to be given the opportunities and the vacancies that do exist. Yeah.

13:06

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Well, I do agree with the right hon. Gentleman is that in the current climate, incentives are current climate, incentives are required to encourage employers to hire young people. I have set out the measures that we have taken to the measures that we have taken to do that, but he is one of a number of members from the party opposite today to raise the Workers Rights Act. This is the biggest upgrade to workers rights in a generation. This government is steadfast in continuing to support working people and making sure that that bill is fully implemented.

13:07

Clive Efford MP (Eltham and Chislehurst, Labour)

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I Bedford. Mr. Speaker, this generation of NEETs grew up under the Tory austerity they suffered. the Tory austerity they suffered. They suffered closure of Surestart centres. They finished their centres. They finished their education with funding per pupil lower than it was in 2010. And then many of them grew up in poverty. Does my right hon. Friend. My hon. Friend agree that we need a root and branch change from what we had under the Conservatives? If we're going to end this conveyor belt of young people finishing school and then going into unemployment?

13:07

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Yes. >> My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. The damage caused by the previous government to a range of services that children and young services that children and young people rely on Camhs. Pertaining to the previous question from my hon. Friend from York Central is one Friend from York Central is one example, but there are a range of others. We recently saw a report highlighting the difference that Surestart had made to young people ravaged by the party opposite. So he is absolutely right that we need root and branch reform.

This government is committed to delivering that.

13:07

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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Vikki Slade thank you, Mr. >> Vikki Slade thank you, Mr. Speaker. The UK's needs crisis is only were the only country that's worse is Romania in the whole of Europe, which is quite shocking. Europe, which is quite shocking. But for me, the issue is around funding for further education. Mike Taylor owns Bonds Barbers and runs Taylor owns Bonds Barbers and runs an award winning academy, and he has way more students than he can give places to. Other local providers are telling me that they're taking on students with no funding on the basis that they need to, to get the get the places in place for next year.

No funding at all for this year. Whilst I recognise the Youth Guarantee is a great idea, surely it's better to get ahead of it, provide the places for our young people and stop young people becoming NEETs rather than waiting until they've been out of work for 18 months.

13:08

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Very good, very good. Speaker, mean that we will deliver more than 500,000 opportunities for young people. What I would also say young people. What I would also say to the hon. Lady is that on the specific question of training for younger people, this government has pivoted funding from older apprentices level seven and above to younger and introduced foundation apprenticeships, so that we can better support people who are 16 to 24. Andrew Ranger thank you, Mr. Speaker.

13:09

Andrew Ranger MP (Wrexham, Labour)

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I welcome this report. And it dismisses the long held stereotypes dismisses the long held stereotypes that young people are lazy or do not want to work. And this this is not want to work. And this this is not a failure of young people. It's a failure of the system. Exactly. And in the survey, 84% of young people said they want to find a job, education or training. Could my hon. Friend set out how the government believes we can move to a system that recognises this fact and changes to a participatory, sorry participation approach, and also how employers can play their part in that? Yeah.

13:09

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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My hon. Friend asks an important question, but underpins it in his opening point with an extremely opening point with an extremely important statement this is not the fault of young people. They are not lazy. They have been let down for years by a system that does not serve their needs. But in terms of the interventions that this government is putting in place, there is £2.5 billion being put in place around the Youth Guarantee. We continue to work with employers and employment support providers to talk about how we can tailor to the specific needs of young people to get the number of young people not in education, employment or training down.

13:10

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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Sir Julian. >> Sir Julian. >> Turning to the important points about mental health made by the hon. Lady for York Central, can I hon. Lady for York Central, can I draw the Minister's attention to paragraphs 44 and 45 of the report, paragraphs 44 and 45 of the report, which say it is mental health conditions that are now the most commonly reported health condition among young people. This explosion has primarily been in mental health issues such as anxiety and depression, rather than in serious mental illnesses.

Now we can all have our different ideas as to what might be causing this upsurge. I think there's been clearly a loss of mental resilience among young people. But does the Minister agree with me that, given that this is such a large part of the problem, further detailed research and analysis needs to be done as to why so many young people are so much more anxious and feel they cannot cope.

13:11

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Mr. >> He is absolutely right to highlight the importance of this, and the Department for health are undertaking a review of mental undertaking a review of mental health provision, the causes, etc. what I also agree with him about is that it is a very concerning that it is a very concerning increase that 40% of young people are citing mental health conditions as a driver of their lack of being in employment, education or training, and that has doubled almost in recent years. That is clearly unacceptable.

That is why some of the interventions that I've cited in earlier answers being led by the Department for Education are so important. More mental health support in schools, getting those Camhs waiting lists down and making sure that children and young people get early intervention when they need help. Because as we are seeing through these numbers and this report, it blights them not just at school but in later life.

13:12

Ms Stella Creasy MP (Walthamstow, Labour )

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Stella Creasy Mr. >> Stella Creasy Mr. >> Speaker, this report partly illustrates the benefits and the illustrates the benefits and the costs and consequences of investment in our young people, whether the fact it shows that whether the fact it shows that children who are not school ready at the age of 4 or 5 are nearly three times more likely to be a neat at 16 or 17, or that those young people who have the bank and mum and dad to be able to financially support them, to take risks are more likely to succeed, even if they are less talented.

What discussions has my colleague had with those across government about how we can help ensure that every child can access early years education, and what thought has he given to restoring child trust funds so that every child can have a nest egg for their future?

13:12

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Well, if it's OK with my hon. Friend, I will write to her specifically on the point about child trust funds, because it is child trust funds, because it is not specifically in my domain. But she is absolutely correct to highlight the issue of school readiness and the link that that has to the likelihood of a child becoming Neet when they turn 16. That is why, as I said, an early answer earlier answer, the loss of surestart is such a tragedy. And that is why I'm so pleased that this government is reintroducing family hubs.

And on the question of the bank of mum and mum and dad, I hope that she heard the question that I answered earlier from my hon. Friend from Bristol about our intention to revolutionise work experience, to ensure that it is not the opportunities that the that your parents can provide you, but the opportunities that we are able to arrange that make a real and tangible difference and level the playing field.

13:13

Kirsty Blackman MP (Aberdeen North, Scottish National Party)

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Mr. Blackburn. >> I agree, it's a system that is broken, not the young people. Alan Milburn does seem, however, to have actually listened to young people actually listened to young people when he wrote this, which too many people do not do not hear their voices and value those voices. Nobody seems to be talking yet about co-production and the value of asking young people and working with young people in order to make these changes. What will the Minister do to ensure that young people are involved in writing the policy, so that we know that they will work for this generation, and not just for what we think this generation might want?

13:14

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Can I thank the hon. Lady for her question? I spend a great deal of time talking to young people about what they need to support about what they need to support them into work. Clearly, at the moment we're waiting for the recommendations of the Milburn Review, but she will have seen the intent around co-production from intent around co-production from the Tims Review. I do not know what would be recommended in the Milburn Review as yet, but if co-production is in there, I'm sure that it is something the Secretary of State will look at.

13:14

Ms Polly Billington MP (East Thanet, Labour)

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Polly Billington thank you, Mr. >> Polly Billington thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was privileged to open our new youth hub in Thanet last week, which is a perfect example of how the DWP is working with third sector organisations and private sector organisations to offer that wraparound help for young people, wraparound help for young people, which of course we need desperately. In places like Thanet, where we have 12% unemployment, one of the highest in the south, in the South East. Can my hon.

Friend, therefore confirm that in the light of the analysis, both in the Melbourne Review and beyond it, that there is a particularly entrenched problem in coastal towns because of our poor connectivity, transport links and fewer chances to learn and earn that, he will commit to a coastal and place based dimension to the plans to turn around this moral and economic crisis.

13:15

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend about the importance of Friend about the importance of place based interventions. And of course, as she sits next to my very good friend from Blackpool South, I am aware of the particular challenges facing coastal towns. I will feed that request in. It is incredibly important that whatever interventions we make, they are bespoke where needed and they tackle this crisis in all parts of the country.

13:15

Greg Smith MP (Mid Buckinghamshire, Conservative)

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Cat Smith thank you, Mr. Speaker. I listen carefully to the Minister's answers to hon. Friends Minister's answers to hon. Friends on this side around National Insurance business rates and the Employment Rights Act. I fear the Minister has been, at best attempting to dance on the head of a pin, because if he wants to come to Mid Buckinghamshire, I can take him to business after business after business. Who desperately wants to take on new apprentices, who want to take on young people, and they would love to use the incentives of the National Insurance provisions for under 21.

But they can't because of the overall impact of taxation from this government. Not least national insurance rises on employment. So can he at least accept that it's the overall impact and not the incentive that is the problem here.

13:16

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Minister. him, Mr. Speaker, is that I am here to answer questions about the interim report from Alan Milburn, interim report from Alan Milburn, who himself points to a longer and more deep rooted problem here than changes that have been made in the last couple of years. I would remind him, as I already have said in response to other colleagues under 21 do not pay National Insurance. There are a range of incentives that have been put in place for under 25 seconds, seeking apprenticeships with small and medium sized enterprises, and for young people who have been on months.

13:17

Emma Lewell MP (South Shields, Labour)

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We need to speed up. If we are >> We need to speed up. If we are going to get a lot of these members, then Emma Lou will be a good example. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

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Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I will do my best. I've listened carefully to my hon. Friend's responses, but youth unemployment in South Shields continues to be in South Shields continues to be higher than the national average. Hospitality is the absolute lifeblood of my small tourist town and typically employs our younger constituents. The local industry are telling me very clearly that a perfect storm of taxes and now the impending tourist tax is directly impacting on their ability to stay afloat, let alone employ staff.

Please, will my hon. Friend look and speak to his colleagues about a VAT cut for the sector?

13:17

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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I will follow up with my hon. Friend directly in the interest of time and write to her on that issue. >> Mr. speaker. >> Jess Brown-Fuller thank you, Mr. Speaker. My first job was in a local cafe, washing pots when I was local cafe, washing pots when I was 13, and then in my 20s, I opened my own restaurant in that same location, offering young people in

13:18

Jess Brown-Fuller MP (Chichester, Liberal Democrat)

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my local community their first job. But when I'm out in Chichester, all of my businesses are telling me they can't do that anymore because they can't do that anymore because they are so squeezed at every single angle. They can't take risks on young people. So will the on young people. So will the Minister lay out what he's going to do to support hospitality, specifically looking at reforming business rates so that those business rates so that those businesses can offer the right path to work for our young people to cut their teeth.

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their teeth. Please help me to get your colleagues in, because we are really struggling on time. Minister.

13:18

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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The hon. Lady will be aware that business rates are a question for the Treasury, Mr. Speaker, but what I would say to her is that we are looking at a range of interventions through the Youth Guarantee and other interventions that I've already outlined that will help to already outlined that will help to provide more opportunity for young people, including in work experience, in first jobs, and in training and apprenticeships. reality.

13:19

Chris Webb MP (Blackpool South, Labour)

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Is that a generation was lost and forgotten about under the previous government, with NEETs increasing 40% in Blackpool. Now 3000 young people are not in education, training or employment, double the national average and amongst the highest despite local initiatives like the platform and the job fairs that I've put on with the DWP, there is a lack of opportunity. So is. The Minister agrees that geography still shapes destiny? Can the hon. Friend set out how this government.

13:19

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Minister, please. >> Minister, please. >> I congratulate my hon. Friend on the work that he does around the jobs fairs. ET cetera. ET cetera. jobs fairs. ET cetera. ET cetera. And I suggest that we meet to discuss it further.

13:19

James Wild MP (North West Norfolk, Conservative)

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James Wild Mr. the last year. And the Minister referred to the Milburn report and paragraph 268 on the jobs tax. It actually says if policy aims to increase growth, it has to help minimise risks and maximise incentives and avoid creating a labour market in which costs of entry have risen. So will he actually listen to that? Lift the costs on employers so you don't have to subsidise so many jobs?

13:20

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Yeah, yeah. him to the rest of paragraph 268 because this this selective quoting does not cover all that was in there, Mr. Speaker, because there, Mr. Speaker, because paragraph two, six eight also says the Neet crisis is much more long term and deep seated than any decisions taken in the last few years. Milburn is very clear that action is needed. It is very clear that there are a range of reasons for that, and is very clear that he will bring forward a set of recommendations on which he expects the government to act.

We await those and we stand ready to act.

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Mr. speaker, it is brilliant to see an example in the interim report of a young woman who had taught herself Shopify in order to taught herself Shopify in order to start a business. This government has prioritised growth, which comes from innovation and entrepreneurship. So given that young people have incredible ideas, young people have incredible ideas, and given that often young people thrive when they can direct their own destiny rather than adapting to another company's culture. Does he

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another company's culture. Does he agree with me that encouraging entrepreneurship among young people needs to be a significant part of the solution? Yeah.

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I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend and I know that the Secretary of State is interested in terms of what we can do to increase support available to self-employed people of all ages.

13:21

Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)

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Richard Foord. >> Many young people get their first job on checkouts. The boss of next, Lord Wolfson, said that two years ago, next had received ten applications for every job vacancy, but that number has since fallen to since since risen to 19 applications per vacancy. He said nothing about how retailers have stripped out jobs at checkouts. Next made a profit of over £1 billion last year. Does the Minister accept that retailers also have a responsibility to create opportunities for young people?

13:21

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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I do accept that, Mr. Speaker, >> I do accept that, Mr. Speaker, and he will be aware of the work that we're doing with Charlie Mayfield. He may also be aware that we have recently appointed Mark we have recently appointed Mark Bolland as the lead in the department, a former chief executive of Marks and Spencer's. And we are incredibly interested at how we can work in partnership with retail to deliver more job opportunities for young people.

13:21

Mr Alex Barros-Curtis MP (Cardiff West, Labour)

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Alex Barros-Curtis thank. >> You, Mr. Speaker, and I'm grateful to Alan Milburn for the sobering report. The proportion of young people who are NEETs, aged 16 young people who are NEETs, aged 16 to 24 in south east Wales in the year ending June 25th, was 13.2%. And as the report indicates, this is only modelled to increase. So does my hon. Friend agree with me that tackling this increase in NEETs has to be a central mission of this Labour government?

13:22

Tim Farron MP (Westmorland and Lonsdale, Liberal Democrat)

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Yeah. just one for this department, but right across government, including education, health and all of the departments to.

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departments to. Tim Farron thank you, Mr. Speaker. With amongst the things that Tony Blair taught us last week in Tony Blair taught us last week in his essay was apparently AI is where it's at, and we've just got to suck it up and and fit in. But given the vast number, as Millburn Millburn identifies, of graduate and entry level jobs being lost to AI, isn't it time we demonstrate we have agency. Technology doesn't need to be the king. We can be.

Isn't it time we built our economy and our technologies around our people rather than our people, especially our young people around our technologies. And therefore having a million lost, lost generation of a million young people as casualties.

13:22

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I mean, I would say to the hon. Gentleman that the causes of the 1 million young people are deeper million young people are deeper than the advent of jobs being lost to AI. Nonetheless, he makes an important point, and that is why the government is undertaking a review of the impact of AI on the labour market.

13:23

Mr Toby Perkins MP (Chesterfield, Labour)

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Toby Perkins Mr. >> Speaker, only. >> Around 5% of young people with an. >> EHCP plan end up. >> In permanent employment, so any

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In permanent employment, so any plan to address this needs to be better than that. Now. Supported internships are incredibly good way internships are incredibly good way of supporting young people with EHCP plans and others to find work. We've got great example in Derbyshire, but we need more funding for those. Can the Minister say what he's going to do to to boost supported internships and to support those young people with EHC plans? Thank you.

13:23

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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My hon. Friend, raises an incredibly important point. As I've incredibly important point. As I've said in a number of answers, we do need to work creatively and holistically with colleagues in the Department for Education and elsewhere to make sure that we are joined up so that there is an opportunity for all young people, whatever their background, whatever their level of need, to find employment. And I look forward to working with him to deliver that.

13:24

David Reed MP (Exmouth and Exeter East, Conservative)

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David Reed thank you, Mr. Speaker. The social. up was work hard and you get ahead now. Artificial intelligence is ripping that apart, and young people do not understand what their relationship is with the state. So how would he describe the new Deal with young people?

13:24

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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The current deal that this government has with young people, government has with young people, Mr. Speaker, is that we will give them opportunities after the party opposite did not, we will make sure that they can find education opportunities, employment opportunities or training opportunities. We will not allow a opportunities. We will not allow a lost generation to continue based on the failings of the party opposite.

13:24

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Tomorrow I'm going to. celebrate our first tranche of electromechanical engineering degree level apprentices as they approach the end of their five year course. Will the Minister join me course. Will the Minister join me in congratulating them and explain what this government is doing to ensure that people can earn and learn through gold standard apprenticeships, like those being delivered by Doctor Liz Bishop and my old team at Nottingham?

13:24

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Yes. >> Yes. >> Well, can I extend my congratulations to those young people? I know that he takes a significant interest in higher education and please do pass on my congratulations to them directly in congratulations to them directly in terms of what we are doing to ensure that there are high quality apprenticeships available, my hon. Friend will be aware of a significant increase in funding for the growth and skills levy.

13:25

Alison Bennett MP (Mid Sussex, Liberal Democrat)

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Alison Bennett speaker. >> I need. >> To declare. >> An interest as the Vice Chair of the APPG for Young Carers. The APPG published an inquiry earlier this year. It found that 4000 young adult carers are providing more than 50 hours of caring a week, and they face significant financial and systemic barriers to going into higher education, training and employment. Almost half have turned down education or training opportunities and when you meet them, they are the best of people.

They are balancing education, work and caring. I offer the Minister one suggestion that would help things. Will the government look at changing the eligibility rules for Carer's allowance? So students

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studying for more than 21 hours a week are eligible. The hon. Lady will be aware that

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The hon. Lady will be aware that Carer's Allowance is intended to offset lost income elsewhere. offset lost income elsewhere. Students do receive finance from various sources, but what I would like to say to the hon. Lady is

13:26

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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that I have not seen that report, and I'd be very grateful if she could send it to me. >> Tasha, I. >> Mr. speaker, this is not just

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Mr. speaker, this is not just about work. This is about what it means to grow up as a young person in this country and meeting the ambitions. Like young people in my community. In Croydon East, the government has already announced a number of measures to support our young people. So can the Minister please outline what can be done to bring together National Youth Strategy, Young Futures Programme, the Youth Guarantee, youth hubs, the Youth Guarantee, youth hubs, health and education to ensure that this response to this emergency is government.

government.

13:26

Natasha Irons MP (Croydon East, Labour)

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I hope that my hon. Friend has recognised from the narrative around the publication of the report in recent days, a sincere conviction for this to be a key priority right across government, working with both public and private sector partners to ensure that this is treated as a whole that this is treated as a whole system problem and that we can get to the bottom of it and resolve it to give opportunities for young people. people.

13:26

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Mr. speaker, the Minister proudly touts jobs, hiring bonuses, youth guarantees, government funded work experience, job placements. These are all treating the symptoms of the problem. And frankly, Mr. Speaker, it's all a bit old. Labour. The problems are structural ones in the economy to do with investment, taxation and regulation. Is there anyone on the government benches who understands how an economy works? works?

13:27

I would say to the hon. Gentleman is, if he wishes to have a debate on why young people not in education, employment or training are struggling as they are. He should do well to look at his party's legacy in government between 2010 and 15, because we are seeing the impact of things like cuts to sure start and opportunities for young people across the piece. It is a far more complex picture than that which he complex picture than that which he seeks to articulate, and his party's fingerprints are all over it.

Speaker.

13:27

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Can I. departmental working on this issue. One area where he could help his department could put their weight behind is the Select Committee suggested amendment to the health Bill, which would put the mental health investment standard onto statute so that we could increase statute so that we could increase investment in our mental health services, bring down the backlog of people waiting for mental health treatment so we can get more young treatment so we can get more young people in Gloucester into work.

13:28

Alex McIntyre MP (Gloucester, Labour)

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I'm very keen to look at all opportunities to bring down mental health, and if he wants to share information with me directly, I'll be happy to look at it further.

13:28

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Bradley Thomas Mr. Speaker, last week I met Sophie and Matt, two young entrepreneurs. They're 24 and 19 years old who bucked the trend open Top Loaf Bakery. But they are already terrified about the long term viability of their businesses. And I hear this time and time again from entrepreneurs who are saying they've got nothing left in the tank because of pressure put on them by this government, they are at risk of closing their business. When is the government going to start listening to those who actually employ people?

13:28

Bradley Thomas MP (Bromsgrove, Conservative)

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It is.

13:28

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Well, as I responded in an earlier question, Mr. Speaker, we have the Mayfield review. We have a non-executive lead director who is a former chairman of Marks and Spencer's. We are talking to Spencer's. We are talking to business all the time. This is how we have developed some of our initial thinking around this space. This is why we have brought forward the Youth Guarantee. This is why we are incentivising businesses to hire young people. We are serious about helping them and we will continue to do so.

Mr. bro.

13:29

Claire Hazelgrove MP (Filton and Bradley Stoke, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I welcome Alan Milburn's interim report, which is nothing short of totemic, given the work that Mr. Milburn will now do to develop recommendations. Could the Minister please confirm if it will be in scope, not only consider how to scope, not only consider how to support those currently impacted, but also those most at risk of leaving education, employment or training as identified according to those risk factors. In his interim report.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would hope that Alan Milburn will bring forward a range of suggested forward a range of suggested interventions that not only look at how we help people now, but how we fix this problem for the long term. fix this problem for the long term. She is absolutely right. Short term fixes will not work here. We have a structural problem. It requires a structural solution.

13:29

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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structural solution. >> Ann Davies. Mr. >> When 84% of young people are

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When 84% of young people are classified as as Neet or as late as I would like to say, because they're all looking for education and training, it's heart breaking that they feel that they are the lost generation. The new pledge company, Welsh Government has committed to aligning education and training with Welsh economic needs. So can the Minister set out how the So can the Minister set out how the UK government will use its powers to address these challenges in Wales? Wales?

13:30

Ann Davies MP (Caerfyrddin, Plaid Cymru)

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I am due, Mr. Speaker, to meet the new employment spokesperson for the Welsh Government as the devolution lead for the Department. I would be very interested to hear ideas that they have. This needs to be a partnership moving forward and if sensible and credible solutions come forward from that administration, I will look to work with them to deliver them.

13:30

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Josh Dean Mr. Speaker, we must not forget that hundreds of thousands of young people are disconnected from traditional employment support and hidden from the system entirely as a result. So with youth workers and trusted adult relationships offering the missing link to help identify and bridge these young people into support. Can the Minister set out how we will put those relationships at the heart of the systems change at the heart of the systems change needed to meet this challenge?

13:31

Josh Dean MP (Hertford and Stortford, Labour)

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I thank my hon. Friend raises a really important point, and one that has not been made so far today about young people who slipped through the net because they are perhaps living with their parents. They are not claiming they are, as he describes, hidden. We are looking across the piece, particularly talking with the Department for Education, on the interventions that we can bring interventions that we can bring forward, and I'll update him as soon as I'm able. Calum Miller thank you, Mr.

Speaker.

13:31

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Every week I meet young people with energy and.

13:31

Calum Miller MP (Bicester and Woodstock, Liberal Democrat)

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Ambition whose hopes are at risk of being crushed by a lack of opportunity. I also recently met with Stuart Forbes, who set up Fairford Heating 42 years ago in my constituency. Stuart told me that this year, for the first time, they this year, for the first time, they will not be taking on an apprentice due to the cost overheads of employment. What is the government doing to make it easier and cheaper

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for local family businesses to take on apprentices? As I have said many times, Mr.

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As I have said many times, Mr. Speaker, introducing a new financial incentive to support SMEs hiring young people under the age

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hiring young people under the age of 25 as apprentices, provided the earnings are below £50,000. Does Peter Prinsley.

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Does Peter Prinsley. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Does the Minister agree that what is needed is a complete cultural change in

13:32

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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is a complete cultural change in our schools, giving equivalents of practical skills to academic pursuits? We have masses of rebuilding in our country after the wreckage of 14 years, including in Suffolk. Yet we have no welders. Let's fix this.

13:32

Peter Prinsley MP (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, Labour)

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Hear, hear. need to make it easier for people to unlock technical, as well as other forms of education, in support of the Prime Minister's target to get two thirds of young people into either an apprenticeship or higher education.

13:32

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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If we are saying we're going to listen to young, young people. One young person recently. Said that they should be labelled as NEETs and not NEETs because they are indeed looking for education, employment and training and positive framing is essential, especially as AI reshapes the labour market. And when we have bosses for Standard Chartered calling them lower value human capital. So does he agree we must rethink pathways into work, invest in new models of education and provide stronger safety nets so that technological changes create opportunities, not exclusion.

13:33

Shockat Adam MP (Leicester South, Independent)

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I do agree with the hon. Gentleman. That is what we are seeking to do, not least for the Youth Guarantee.

13:33

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Tristan Osborne. identified 240 NEETs, part of our local authority review. Part of the solution they've suggested, is increasing the capacity at further increasing the capacity at further education colleges so that people can get streamlined from school straight into college, as opposed to having to wait. Does the Minister agree that further investment in further education is a solution to this problem? a solution to this problem?

13:33

Tristan Osborne MP (Chatham and Aylesford, Labour)

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It is one of a range of potential solutions, Mr. Speaker, and I do agree with him that it's a very important one.

13:33

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Mr. Speaker. Milburn highlights the need for the cross-departmental working that the Minister has also working that the Minister has also highlighted. I just wonder what structures are in place for that, because we've already seen missed opportunities, for example, through opportunities, for example, through the English Devolution Bill, to actually put more local powers in place. This needs to be a focus of every single department in government. What is the structure to deal with that? to deal with that?

13:34

Ian Sollom MP (St Neots and Mid Cambridgeshire, Liberal Democrat)

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I hope the right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that. Milburn reported on Thursday, and that the recommendations from the report will not come before several months yet. It is an important point. We will need a structure in place. I am very committed to making sure that this is a whole government intervention, but for the moment, I think it is important that we take the time to get that right.

13:34

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Sonia Kumar thank you, Mr. Speaker. Dudley has one of the highest levels of NEETs in the country and has the highest levels of deprivation. After my NEETs roundtable in February, stakeholders wanted better data joined up services with the DWP health, education and better provision for Send locally. What guarantees will my right hon. Friend give me to ensure places like Dudley are prioritised and like Dudley are prioritised and root causes of inequality are tackled holistically?

13:34

Sonia Kumar MP (Dudley, Labour)

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What I can assure the hon. Lady of my hon. Friend of is that we are absolutely committed to delivering that holistic intervention, to making sure that all areas of the country and see progress in this space, but that, particularly as she would expect, as colleagues would expect, we target those areas where this is the greatest problem. And if that includes her constituency, she will see some action.

13:35

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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On the concept of paying your dues, working the long hours, the bad shifts, working your way up the principles which absolutely founded the British work ethic appear now to be seen as something to be embarrassed about. What steps can the Minister take with the Education Minister and voluntary sectors to train our children from a young age of working hard at any level is something to be proud of, and that not working, if you're able to do so, is not a choice.

Anyone should profit from. Anyone should profit from.

13:35

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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I am reluctant to respond in the strongest terms possible, Mr. Speaker, because it is the hon. Gentleman who has made the point, and I hold him in the highest regard. But I think what the Milburn Review says, loud and clear, is that this is not about a fecklessness in young people, or that they are proud of being not in education, employment or training. They want those opportunities. It is a failure of the state. It is a failure of the system. Whole system failure of the system.

Whole system reform is needed and we are determined to bring it forward.

13:36

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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So thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Milburn Report identifies a state failure to provide timely and appropriate mental health support. And this is just about Camhs. This is about people that are up to in adult services, it says. Most tellingly, there are no waiting time targets for mental health services. So will he have conversations with DHSC colleagues to supplement the Jobs Guarantee with a mental health support guarantee? To make sure that young guarantee? To make sure that young people are not waiting more than 18 months for mental health support.

13:36

Lewis Atkinson MP (Sunderland Central, Labour)

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I will raise that with the Department for health and come back to him.

13:36

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Kerry McCarthy thank. learning providers in Bristol from Enemy of Boredom, which is about developing video games, to the wheels project, which is about stripping down cars and rebuilding stripping down cars and rebuilding them. There are lifeline for young people struggling with mainstream education will. As part of the Milburn review, the government will look at supporting Alps so that young people can be set back on the right path towards a job in the future.

13:36

Kerry McCarthy MP (Bristol East, Labour)

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We are still waiting for the recommendations, Mr. Speaker, but I will feed in my hon. Friend's suggestion because I think it's a good one, Frances.

13:37

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Speaker one. >> It was. >> Easier to keep disabled young people in EHCP until 2025 because there isn't adequate support to get them into work, but equally for them into work, but equally for other young disabled people to make them Neet because there isn't adequate support to get them into work. So will my hon. Friend agree with me that any reforms need a cross-departmental approach to support disabled young people into work and ensure there's lifelong work opportunities for them.

13:37

Daniel Francis MP (Bexleyheath and Crayford, Labour)

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I do agree with my hon. Friend. Mr. speaker, sometimes this can feel like a vicious circle for young people with disabilities, and we need to make sure that we get this right.

13:37

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Thank you. after me have been systematically failed. The scale of the next crisis is not because of young people, but, as the Minister says, a widespread problem across education, health and indeed the welfare system. So can I take this opportunity to welcome the report, praise the work of the excellent job Centre staff in Castlemilk and one constituency, and invite the Minister to come to a job fair for young people that were hosting young people that were hosting later this year.

13:38

Gordon McKee MP (Glasgow South, Labour)

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Can I join in his praise for his local job centre staff? He knows that I would never refuse him and I look forward to that visit.

13:38

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Scott Arthur thank you, Mr. >> Speaker, and I do refer members to my register of interest. I was really disappointed to hear anxiety as a condition being downplayed, as a condition being downplayed, because it can be absolutely debilitating, and we do have to accept that to solve the problems presented in the report, we will have to break down the silos within government and work with the devolved government. So I would be devolved government. So I would be grateful the Minister outline his approach to doing that.

And also there is a tendency.

13:38

Dr Scott Arthur MP (Edinburgh South West, Labour)

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As I said, in response to an earlier question about conversations with the Welsh Government, I am due to meet my Scottish counterpart next week. These conversations take place regularly, routinely, and we will ensure that we have a joined up approach so that everybody across these isles is able to benefit from these changes.

13:38

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I recently visited the Job centre in Bournemouth town, the Employment Minister, and we saw the great work they were doing to build skills and confidence of young people through work experience with organisations like the National Trust. Now I'm delighted we're also getting a youth hub. Can the Minister please tell us how young people in my constituency will benefit from that?

13:39

Jessica Toale MP (Bournemouth West, Labour)

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Mr. speaker, youth hubs are an incredible way for specialists to reach out and work with young people across a range of a range of different interventions. It is a single space from which we can really drill down and target the needs of individual young people in individual communities, such as hers. And if I may add, I know my right hon. Friend very much enjoyed her visit because she told me so. her visit because she told me so.

13:39

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Jim Dickson thank you, Mr. Speaker. providing strong opportunities for young people, including skills training, permanent jobs and careers. Does the Minister agree with me that as we renew our homes, our bridges, our crossings, our rail, our infrastructure, we've got to maximise the opportunities for young people?

13:39

Jim Dickson MP (Dartford, Labour)

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I absolutely agree that is significant government investment and it presents a significant opportunity to do just as he says.

13:40

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Mr. Speaker. This report identifies the vital importance of the home learning environment, which is a dry term recognising which is a dry term recognising that children don't grow up in isolation. They're in rich relationships and parental skills, parental relationships, secure attachment all really matter. As chair of the APPG, I'm really pleased the Minister has mentioned family hubs and the government's family hubs and the government's investment in them. With the new guidance, they're set to be really rich networks, partnerships that support families.

Does

13:40

Tom Collins MP (Worcester, Labour)

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There should be calls for us to double down on our plan, to roll them out quickly and successfully.

13:40

Douglas McAllister MP (West Dunbartonshire, Labour)

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I absolutely agree, but he'll appreciate that that is DfE lead. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The majority of young people not in employment, education or training in West Dunbartonshire want a job or training, but are not getting or training, but are not getting the support that they need. Does the Minister agree that one way to tackle the challenge of youth employment is through our youth employment is through our youth hubs, such as in West Dunbartonshire opening this month, one of ten across Scotland and Willie come and visit it in West Dunbartonshire.

It sounds like I'm having a day out in Scotland, Mr. Speaker, because yes, I will take that in. At the same time.

13:41

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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I let the front bench change

13:41

Ministerial statement: Henry Nowak

I let the front bench change over. Home Secretary. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> With your permission, I will make a statement about the murder. make a statement about the murder. Of Henry Nowak last December. Henry, aged just 18, was a first year aged just 18, was a first year university student with his life ahead of him. He was kind,

13:41

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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hardworking, loved by his family and friends. His murder at the hands of Vikram Vikram Digwa was a horrifying act. Digwa murdered Henry and then lied about him as he Henry and then lied about him as he lay dying, falsely accusing him of lay dying, falsely accusing him of racism. It was an evil act. I know the thoughts of the whole house will now be with Henry's family and will now be with Henry's family and his friends, just as mine are. What they have been through is heartbreaking for most of us.

Unimaginable. I know nothing can take their pain and loss away, but yesterday we saw some measure of justice. Digwa was sentenced to life imprisonment. He will serve a minimum term of 21 years. His mother, Kirron Kher, has been convicted of assisting an offender. She is due to be sentenced on 17th of July. And today the Crown Prosecution Service has authorised further charges against other members of the attacker's family, with further sentencing and possible charges pending. We must be cautious still in what we say about this case so that we do not place any proceedings at risk.

However, I can and must pay tribute today to the dignified and powerful words of the Nowak family in the statement they gave after yesterday's sentencing. They deserve answers. They deserve answers in particular about what happened on that awful night and the actions of the police officers who arrived on the scene. I expect many in this House, and many more across this country, have now seen the police officer's body cam footage released last night. It is, without question, a disturbing and tragic thing to see.

People are rightly asking questions about how the situation was handled, and they are shocked and disquieted to hear Henry's words. I can't breathe. I know that it is difficult to wait any longer for answers, but there is a proper process to assess whether there have been incidents of police misconduct, led by the Independent Office for Police Conduct. The IOPC. They will determine what could and should have been done differently. They will determine what action may need to be taken against individual officers.

The family yesterday called on me and I quote to ensure the Iopc has the resources, authority and independence it needs to conduct a full, fearless and transparent investigation. Mr. speaker, I can confirm to you today that I will do so. The Iopc will be equipped and encouraged to act, to find the truth and to ensure, if necessary, that there are consequences. There have been accusations, I know, of two tier policing. That one community has been prioritised over another. It will be for the Iopc to determine the facts with regard to this specific case, and I cannot and will not comment on them.

But let me say this on the question of preferential treatment more widely, the police in this country have a sacred duty to police without fear or favour. Everyone in this country is equal before the law. It is the promise upon which our whole justice system rests, and the equality of every citizen is the foundation on which the openness, tolerance and generosity of this country rests. Let me also be clear about one other thing. A dangerous undercurrent that I have seen in the reaction to this awful crime.

Threats against police officers are utterly unacceptable. There can be no justification for intimidation, abuse or attempts to take the law into one's own hands. A police officer unrelated to this case has been misidentified online and subjected to death threats. He has been forced to relocate to protect himself and his family. Misinformation and inflammatory commentary is making a dreadful situation even worse. We must all together condemn it, and we must also allow the facts to be established to the appropriate investigations and the courts.

And we must do so calmly and responsibly. The Nowak family and Henry's memory deserve answers. They have also called on us all to take action. Action to address the daily tragedy of knife crime in this country. This government is committed to halving knife crime in this decade. Since the start of this Parliament, we have made progress. Knife crime has fallen by 10%. Knife homicides are down 27% at their lowest level in a decade. But clearly we must do more. Whilst there are still tragedies like this one, and for that reason, we have recently published our Halving Knife crime plan.

It sets out how we will go further to drive sustained reductions in violence. It brings together action across government and across society to stop people from turning to knife crime, and to ensure that perpetrators are caught and brought to justice. Amongst a range of measures, this will see schools and families supported to address the root causes of knife crime through the establishment of 50 young futures hubs. Police using new crime mapping tools to target enforcement more precisely, and making better use of stop and search and cruel and exploitative drug gangs stopped from criminally exploiting children, preventing the knife violence that is driven by the county lines trade.

In relation to knife controls, there have been calls to limit the right of Sikhs to carry their ceremonial knife. The kirpan, one of the five holy items in their faith. The Offensive Weapons Act of 2019, passed under the previous government, clarified and strengthened existing legal protections in relation to long kirpans. This included extending defences so that kirpans can be lawfully possessed for religious reasons and used in religious and ceremonial contexts. But let me be clear carrying a knife for the purpose of religious observance is one thing.

Using it as so tragically occurred in this case is quite another. It is a vile act, a crime of the utmost severity, and it will be met with the severest punishment. Yesterday, the Nowak family ended their statement with a powerful call to us all. I quote, we do not want his death to be used to create further division, hatred or tension. They quoted the words of the prosecuting lawyer and I quote again, Mr. Speaker, this is not a case about Sikhism.

This is not a case about racism. This is a case about murder. I echo those words. We cannot allow this murder to turn communities against one another. We must condemn those who seek personal political profit from tragedy. Instead, we must show who we really are in this country. This was a murder, a vile and violent crime. The punishment must be reserved for those who are responsible for the act. We do not believe in collective punishment in this country.

Instead, we stand together against an act of pure evil. We condemn those who committed this heinous crime. Not all those who share their faith or their ethnicity. Yesterday, a sentence was handed down in court. I know it will never be enough. The loss felt by Henry Nowak family and friends will last forever. A wonderful young man will never enjoy the promise of the life that stretched out before him. The evil acts of his murderer and accomplice will never be undone. But we can choose to use this moment to pursue positive change.

We are still limited in what we can say. There is a sentence to be handed down and further charges may follow. And there is an IOPC investigation ongoing. But I call on everyone here to be responsible in this moment to allow justice to run its full course. But while we must be limited in what we can say, we must not be limited in how we act. I will end with the words of the Nowak family once more. Last night they wrote that no other family should experience the heartbreak and horror of losing a child to knife crime.

Let that be the challenge to us all. Across this house, across government and across society. It is the very least we can do to honour the memory of Henry Nowak. Mr. speaker, I commend this statement to the House.

13:50

Rt Hon Chris Philp MP (Croydon South, Conservative)

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Chris Philp shadow Home Secretary. the Home Secretary. And thank you, Mr. Speaker, for ensuring the government came to the House today. government came to the House today. The murder of Henry Nowak is devastating for his family. He was devastating for his family. He was an innocent young man on the way home when he was brutally killed. Henry's family have suffered an unimaginable loss, and I know the thoughts of the whole house will be with them all. The evil murderer Vickrum Digwa lied from start to finish, including a false allegation of racism.

But on arriving at the scene, the police appeared more concerned with the accusation of racism and even the possibility that Digwa himself was injured than they were in helping Henry. Henry told the police he could not breathe nine times. He told them he had been stabbed four times. The response from the officer we've all heard was to say, I don't think you have made. Henry was handcuffed and dragged across the ground as he lay dying. Can you imagine what he must have felt as he cried out for help and was ignored as the officers who should have worked to save him, instead handcuffed him and inquired after the welfare of his killer standing just inches away.

Henry's dad, Mark, said this. Henry did not die with dignity. He did not die with the care he deserved. He lost consciousness before anyone believed him. So we need the Iopc to urgently and transparently report into how it was. The police attending were more concerned with the accusation of racism than they were in helping a dying man. Mr. speaker, we cannot tolerate a situation where false allegations of racism by criminals are believed. We cannot allow the colour of someone's skin to be a consideration in how the police or other public services treat people.

And yet this has happened. Just recently, we learnt that Valdo Cathal Mallaghan, who murdered three people in Nottingham, was not sectioned by mental health professionals because they thought there was, and I quote, an overrepresentation of young black males in mental health detention. The consequent failure to section Valdo only in part because he was black, led directly to the murder of three innocent people. The head teacher of Axel Cabana was accused of racist stereotyping when she described Cabana as a threat to safety, and the risk assessment was watered down.

Cabana, of course, went on to stab and murder three young girls at a Southport dance class. But, Mr. Speaker, this has not happened by accident. It is enshrined in the police's own policy documents. The police anti-racism commitment, published in March 2025 by the NPC and the College of Policing, urges police forces to reverse engineer the same arrest rates between ethnic groups, even though the offending rates are different. By treating different ethnic groups differently. Let that sink in for a moment.

An official police document actually says people should be treated differently based on the colour of their skin. I've said before at this Dispatch Box at least twice, that document should be withdrawn. The dangerous ideology of so-called anti-racism, allowing people to be treated differently based on race must end. Extreme activists have the policy making process, and this is where it has led. It has no place in policing. It has no place anywhere. So does the Home Secretary agree that the so-called police anti-racism commitment must urgently be withdrawn? It is morally wrong and it is dangerous as well.

Police forces must focus on catching criminals and keeping the public safe. They must simply treat everyone exactly the same. I want to finish with Mark Nowak words yesterday. Henry's father. He said this. Henry was 18. He was kind, ambitious, loved and full of promise. He had his whole life ahead of him, but that future was stolen from him. And no verdict and no sentence will ever give it back. Mr. speaker, it is true that nothing can bring Henry back.

But let us make sure that no one ever again experiences what Henry did in

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his last tragic moments. Home Secretary thank you, Mr. Speaker. Let me thank the shadow Speaker. Let me thank the shadow Home Secretary for his remarks and for the tone in which he reflected for the tone in which he reflected on the this horrific murder and the words of the family, which obviously he knows I share as well. obviously he knows I share as well. Let me just say his his initial point. I would normally let it slide, Mr. Speaker, but I think slide, Mr.

Speaker, but I think there's far too much misinformation floating around social media for me to just leave this one unchallenged. On the government coming to the House, he will know that the proceedings and sentencing concluded at 4:00 yesterday. We said we would come immediately thereafter to the House and we have presented ourselves here today. We have responded in an appropriate way with all of the facts at our disposal and all of the judge's remarks at our disposal for our review before coming to this House.

And I think it's important that we respond in these moments in a measured way. And that is what we, the government, have sought to do. He referred to evidence in relation to the Valdo Charlotte Cane inquiry. He will know that the inquiry into the Nottingham attacks is well underway, and I don't think it would be appropriate for me from this Dispatch Box to pre-empt any findings that the inquiry might make. But of course, all of the actions and assumptions made by professionals of different public services, including the police and the health service, are subject to scrutiny within that inquiry.

I'm sure those are matters that we will return to as as that inquiry report. He did refer to the findings of phase one of the Southport inquiry in relation to those horrific murders and the findings in relation to how the public service systems, in that case, in relation to acts of Cabana centred the danger he might have posed himself, given his mental health diagnosis and did not take into account the danger he posed potentially to others. There have been recommendations he will know that have been made for change in this area, which the government will respond to fully in due course.

But let me be very clear with him and all members in this House in all such matters, in terms of how we engage with our public services and how they assist risk. The only important factor is the risk an individual poses. Not their race, not their religion, or indeed anything else. And we will not tolerate a situation where other irrelevant factors are taken into account. I repeat again, all are equal before the law and every public service needs to bear that in mind.

He he referred to the police anti-racism commitment. He will obviously remember, I'm sure that the race action plan for the police began life under the previous conservative government. In fact, I'm old enough to remember when Theresa May called out disproportionate use of stop and search for black communities. In particular, he will know that the way that policing works in this country is by consent. It is important that the police retain the confidence of all of the communities that they police, and that there has.

I think he would acknowledge being a history and a context here relating to racism and the police. Whatever changes are made that it is important that nobody overcorrects or course corrects such that all of us as citizens are no longer equal before the law, and this government will always ensure that in fulfilling their sacred duties to keep our communities safe, that the police always act without fear and favour and always ensure that every citizen is treated equally. But I'm sure he wouldn't want to do down or ignore a historic and legitimate concerns that there have been from some communities about institutional racism, as well as differential treatment.

I condemn all types of differential and every type of differential treatment. I do not stand for it. My own track record as a government Minister shows I will always act when there is evidence of differential treatment, and it is absolutely vital that that message is heard loud and clear across the whole of our country. our country.

13:59

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Darren Paffey thank. State for her statement? Henry was a popular and much loved student at the University of Southampton, and his murder has horrified our city. I know both my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton Test, and I

13:59

Darren Paffey MP (Southampton Itchen, Labour)

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want to commend everyone at the University for their response and support for the university community following this tragedy. Mr. speaker, like many, I have watched the body cam footage and it is both heartbreaking and infuriating. It makes it plain for all to see how Henry posed no all to see how Henry posed no threat that would warrant being handcuffed, and yet was treated as a criminal based on the lies of his murderer. Now, no one in their right mind thinks that one Sikh, or 1 or 2 police officers represents all Sikhs or the entire police force.

As Henry's father has said, this is about murder, about our response to it and about our prevention of it. So I have two questions for my right hon. Friend. We have a knife problem in this country. That's why we've taken early steps to ban zombie knives and to crack down on knife sellers. But it is obvious that is not enough. And we have to go further. So will the Secretary of State commit to clarifying a set of tough and consistent knife laws and the resources to enforce them so that we can actually move on? And secondly, I echo the words of Henry's dad as she did and asked the Secretary of State to guarantee that the IOPC will have the resources, the authority and the independence it needs to conduct a full, fearless and transparent investigation.

Will she guarantee that because the catastrophic errors that were made when police

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officers got to Henry must never happen again? Well, let me thank my hon.

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Well, let me thank my hon. Friend for his contribution and for his questions. Let me give him that his questions. Let me give him that guarantee. The IOPC will and do have the resources that they need in order to conduct their investigation, and I know that they will do so, you know, with the full independence that is afforded to

14:01

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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independence that is afforded to them in our system. I understand that they intend to report finally within the next three months. And I do believe that a meeting is now taking place with the family. Some contact had been made before, but they were waiting for the end of the criminal trial. So of course they will. They will do their job. They are getting on with doing their job, and I expect them to report as quickly as possible. But I can give him the guarantee that he seeks.

He is right about us having a knife crime problem in this country. That is why the government has a landmark commitment to halving knife crime over a decade. It's why we've launched the Knife Crime Action Plan. And let me reassure him, it does have the resources it needs in order to fulfil its historic mission. spokesperson.

14:02

Max Wilkinson MP (Cheltenham, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is a heartbreaking case of a young man who should be alive today with a who should be alive today with a happy life ahead of him because of the forces of evil. He is not. On behalf of my party, I want to extend my sympathies to Henry's extend my sympathies to Henry's family and friends, and I welcome the Home Secretary's statement today. The independent investigation should uncover how one evil individual was not picked up, despite apparently exhibiting disturbing behaviours that saw him ejected from his place of worship and having an obsession with weapons.

Police officers, of course, we know, work under high stress and must make split second decisions. We rely on their good judgement every day. Tragically, in this case, the officers made a clear and terrible mistake, one that failed Henry and has broken the hearts of his family. The investigation must ensure recommendations are made so nothing like this can happen again. But as the Home Secretary said, there must be no doubt, though, that the police officers that we see on our streets must be treated with respect.

Before going any further, we must also acknowledge that Digwa betrayed his faith and he betrayed his community, and he deserves his punishment. Regardless of that, it is incumbent upon all of us in this House when we discuss this issue, to bear in mind the words of Henry's father, Mark, who said, we do not want Henry's murder to be used to create further hatred, division or tension. Since the sentencing and the release of the harrowing video showing the sickening incident, the vast majority of politicians have responded to this matter with due sensitivity, and that reflects well on this House.

It is therefore all the more disturbing that we have seen the hon. Member for Clacton once again using tragedy to divide British communities. We all know why he does this. He's made a career out of this and has become rich as a result. But we are also well aware as he is, that his actions are divisive, dangerous and fundamentally un-british. The rights of British people to observe their faith are hard won. They cannot be contingent upon the colour of any individual's skin.

Those rights we know, come with a responsibility. A responsibility that Digwa has betrayed, and he must now serve his well deserved punishment. Of course, as other members have said, we are too aware of the tragedies of knife crime and the problem it represents in this country that must be tackled, as Mark Nowak has rightly said. The judge's remarks in this case tell us the knife being carried by the

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murderer was different to that typically carried by British seats as a part of their faith. Mr. Wilkinson, it's no use

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Mr. Wilkinson, it's no use holding your hand up as though you some policeman. I'm policing it on the time given you quite a bit over.

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the time given you quite a bit over. I hope you're coming to the end now. I am Mr Speaker, and I apologise. As Mark Nowak has said, the outcome As Mark Nowak has said, the outcome here should be one of. Further. Should not be one of further division. In that spirit and in Henry's memory, we must work

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Henry's memory, we must work together to ensure this kind of tragedy is not allowed to happen again. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, let me say I welcome the contribution from the Liberal Democrat spokesman and associate myself with his words again, in relation to the family and their

14:04

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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reaction to what has happened. I'm not sure there was a specific question in there for me, but if question in there for me, but if there are other things that the member wishes to pick up with me, then I'll be very happy to to engage with him on other points of detail that maybe he wasn't able to come on to. Let me just reiterate, for the benefit of the whole House, for the benefit of the whole House, Mr. Speaker, anyone using this tragedy, this horrific, vile act of tragedy, this horrific, vile act of murder in order to stoke further division in our country, should be rejected by everyone across this House.

Political grandstanding and further division is not what is needed. Clear eyed action and a commitment to ensuring all of our citizens are equal before the law of our collective land is what is needed.

14:05

Clive Efford MP (Eltham and Chislehurst, Labour)

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Clive Efford Mr. Speaker, this is a terrible incident and my heart is a terrible incident and my heart goes out to the family of Henry. But is my right hon. Friend But is my right hon. Friend concerned as I am, that some have raised the issue of the Macpherson inquiry, and that this has caused inquiry, and that this has caused the police to hold back when dealing with people who perpetrate crimes, who may be from an ethnic minority. Does she agree with me that there is nothing in the Macpherson inquiry that suggests the police should behave in that way, or excuses the extraordinary behaviour of the police at the scene of this crime? And does she think that that what needs reviewing here is the way that police are trained in dealing with incidents of this sort? Because it seems to me that there was that what happened at the scene of that crime falls way below what we expect of the police.

14:06

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Well, I thank my hon. Friend. Let me say, look, police officers must apply the law fairly without must apply the law fairly without fear or favour to every single person that they serve. They do work incredibly hard and they do get it right the vast majority of the time. But where mistakes are made, it is right that they are properly investigated and examined. I do think the whole House should remember that our police officers every day run towards danger. In order to keep our community safe.

He will know on the specifics of this case because of the ongoing independent IOPC investigation. I don't think it's appropriate to comment further on the specifics of this case.

14:07

Rt Hon Sir Edward Leigh MP (Gainsborough, Conservative)

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Father of the House sir. Edward Leigh. Secretary says, and I agree that we shouldn't weaponise this issue, but nor should we tiptoe around it. The truth is that many white people in truth is that many white people in this country feel that the police are so terrified of being called racist that either they underreact in the case of the appalling grooming scandal or the overreact in this case. So there is a role for the Home Secretary now she needs to really summon in these top police officers and say, things have got to change.

We are all equal. Don't be terrified of what people think about you. Just carry out the law as you're supposed to do as police officers.

14:07

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Mr. speaker, I have made very >> Mr. speaker, I have made very clear from this Dispatch Box and over the course of my tenure as Home Secretary to say all are equal Home Secretary to say all are equal before the law and the police must always act without fear and without favour towards any one group. I favour towards any one group. I don't think it is helpful for us to start pitting either majority or different minority communities against one another. That is not what this moment requires and it is important.

He's right. There's always a balance to be struck. There mustn't be underreaction or indeed overreaction. It is always a balance. And I do believe that the police, in the vast majority of cases, do get that balance right. And as I say, our police officers every single day run towards danger in order to keep us safe. I will always scrutinise all these actions to make sure that our police service is functioning as it should be, so that every single citizen in our country, regardless of the colour of their skin or the faith that they have or may not have, can be absolutely certain that they will always be treated equally and that whatever complaint they have will always be investigated in the way that we would all expect.

14:08

Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi MP (Slough, Labour)

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Manjeet Singh. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I am deeply saddened by the murder of Henry Nowak and my heartfelt condolences to his family, whose condolences to his family, whose pain was made all the worse by the police wrongly handcuffing Henry, believing the lies of the violent murderer, and that stripped Henry of his dignity in his agonising final moments, something which should never happen again. But also, Mr. Speaker, what's very galling is that the likes of reform, restore and the far right decided to politicise people's pain, attacking the Sikh community for wearing the kirpan and wanting it banned.

Even though the kirpan was not used in this violent attack. And they've decided to scapegoat and throw under the bus an entire community based on the actions of one violent murderer. And let me also give them a history.

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Or you meant to be going through the chair, not across the chamber. My apologies.

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My apologies. My apologies, Mr. Speaker, and let it not be said that we see them let it not be said that we see them and we will stand up to them. And we. Let me also give a short

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we. Let me also give a short history lesson, Mr. Speaker. Order, order! I started this session by tolerance and respect, and I don't expect to be pointing at each other and attacking each other. You work through the chair. We want an orderly chamber that is respectful. This does nobody any

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good. I think. Dudley thank you very. Much, Mr. Speaker, because hundreds of

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Speaker, because hundreds of thousands of Sikh soldiers bravely fought alongside British soldiers during both world wars, tens of during both world wars, tens of thousands made the ultimate sacrifice, proudly wearing their turban and their kirpan. So what turban and their kirpan. So what reassurances can my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, give to the Sikh community, which is both the Sikh community, which is both horrified and ashamed at this brutal murder, and they are fearful of their right to freely and peacefully practice their faith? Yes.

14:11

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Well, let me reiterate for my hon. Friend, religious freedom is a very important principle that this very important principle that this government respects, that has been respected by different governments of different party political of different party political persuasions, and I'm sure that that will continue to be the case. As I said in my statement, we are not a country that collectively punishes an entire group of people for the actions of individuals. The responsibility for this murder rests with the murderer, and he has now faced justice and been sentenced, and that is the right way for these matters to proceed.

Let me also say something, Mr. Speaker, on the tone of this debate. I think it's it would be right for the whole House to remember. I'm sure Henry Nowak family and his friends are watching. And the way we conduct ourselves in this place can, of course, be passionate, but must not result in name calling and also in just shouting different political views here, because I don't think we should all stand for a politicisation of this murder. There are lessons to be learned and I'm sure further issues to be drawn from what has happened.

Once the IOPC has concluded its investigation, I'm sure we will debate them here in the future as well. But the way that we conduct that debate matters, matters just as much, in my view, as what is, said.

14:12

Lewis Cocking MP (Broxbourne, Conservative)

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Lewis Cocking. >> Lewis Cocking. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> This is an appalling and sickening tragedy. Words cannot express my heartbreak for Henry's family and fury at the system that has led to this. We have all seen the body worn video and in a previous role, as part of my job, it was my job to review that footage and give an independent judgement. In this case, it is clear to everyone that the police did not use appropriate and proportionate action.

There are many good police officers who work hard to keep us safe, but on that night, those police officers displayed no concern for Henry. Immediate actions should have been taken to try and save his life, but instead, Henry was put in handcuffs and mocked as he lay dying. Those police officers have serious questions to answer. Can the Home Secretary explain what action the government will now take to ensure that every officer involved is held accountable for the decisions that they have made, and so that the public can have confidence that we'll all be treated equally under the law?

14:13

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Yeah. hon. Gentleman that assurance by referring to the fact that the Iopc is investigating this matter, and they will be free to conclude that investigation using all of the powers that they have and also all of their evidence gathering of their evidence gathering abilities. He will know, having reviewed such such footage in the past. Of course, what is publicly available is three minutes of a much longer incident, but the Iopc will be able to review every bit of body cam footage, all of it in its totality, as well as other evidence that sheds light on the context of the incident and also what the police officers saw and how they reacted to it.

The Iopc is free to make recommendations not just on specific conduct, but also on wider lessons that should be drawn. Let me reassure him. Once the Iopc has reported and made its findings, I will make sure that I personally update the House.

14:14

Jen Craft MP (Thurrock, Labour)

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Jen Craft thank. >> You, Mr. Speaker. I would like to pay tribute to my constituent, Henry Nowak, a bright young man at the start of a life that held so the start of a life that held so much promise. The turnout at his funeral and the outpouring of community support show that he had community support show that he had an impact well beyond his young years. I'd like to pay tribute to his family, Mark Nowak, particularly his father. Many here have quoted his words, calling that Henry's death does not lead to more division and hatred.

His sister, Olivia made space in the early days of her own grief to support Henry's friends. I think that speaks to this family and their courage and their bravery and their dignity in dealing with one of the most tragic and devastating things that any of us could ever imagine going through. Like many in this House, I've watched the body worn video camera footage that was released last night, and I watched it with horror. I could not imagine what Henry's family felt seeing that and knowing that that was their son's last moments.

They expected help from the police. But when Henry lay dying, what he got was accusation and he was disbelieved. This can never happen again. I would like to ask the Home Secretary what she will do to meet Henry's family's cause. First of all, to tackle the national emergency that is knife crime. Like many families who have suffered a loss from this appalling crime, Henry's family have called that his death has not been in vain, that lessons are learnt, and that they can go forward to see that his legacy is that no one else has to suffer that grief.

And secondly, I would welcome the Home Secretary's assurances that the Iopc investigation will be thorough, will be fully resourced, that no stone will be left unturned, that the family will have the answers they need and deserve. They will know why their son was treated as a criminal, and why the criminal was treated with much more dignity than their son was, and I would be grateful if she would speak to make sure that the family's needs, their wishes, and that their voices are heard throughout this inquiry.

14:16

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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The second. first pay tribute to my hon. Friend for her powerful contribution as for her powerful contribution as Henry's constituency member of Parliament. Let me firstly give her absolutely the assurance that she absolutely the assurance that she seeks in relation to the Iopc investigation. I know that that investigation is continuing at pace. I know that the family is being engaged with. If there are any concerns about that process, I do invite her to let me know immediately and I will personally ensure that any concerns are dealt with and that the family can have confidence in the Iopc process.

Let me say also on knife crime, this government has acknowledged the absolute epidemic of knife crime in our country and the the imperative that we have to act upon it. It's why we have our landmark commitment to halve knife crime over a decade, why we have launched the Knife Crime Action Plan. It is a resource package of measures designed to deal with the scourge of knife crime. And let me give her this reassurance. And exactly as I said in my statement earlier, we will leave no stone unturned to deal with knife crime in our country, and we do so in the name of all victims of knife crime, including Henry.

Their lives must not be in vain, and we must learn the lessons

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that prevent these tragedies from occurring in the future. Robert Jenrick. When Henry lay.

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When Henry lay. On the floor, he warned. times. He said that he couldn't.

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Breathe nine times, and yet the officer chose to cuff him rather than treat him. That officer should than treat him. That officer should be in court, being prosecuted for a total dereliction of duty. But the

14:18

Rt Hon Robert Jenrick MP (Newark, Reform UK)

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bigger question is this why do officers behave in this way? Is it because they have been taught repeatedly to elevate perceptions of ethnic minority communities over the safety of white British people? That sickness contributed to the killings of Rudy Cabana of Caledon in Nottingham, and now to Digwa is a sickness rooted in the anti-racism agenda. Will the Home Secretary root it out? Will she return to equality before the law for all? And will she say that when it comes to public safety, white else's.

14:18

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Care? Here, sir. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Let me say to the hon. Gentleman, I don't think this is a moment to pit white think this is a moment to pit white Britons against non-white Britons. This is a moment to reflect on a horrific tragedy. He knows full well that the Iopc is investigating the conduct of those police officers. It would be wholly inappropriate for a member of this House to seek to pre-empt an independent investigation into the the potential misconduct of police officers that.

IOPC investigation will look at individual conduct, but also what other wider lessons can be learned from this case? I will personally ensure that all lessons are learned and indeed acted upon. And let me also say it is a fundamental principle not just of the British criminal justice system, but who and what we are as a country, that we are all equal before the law of our land. That applies regardless of the colour of your skin. That applies whether you're a non-white British family arrived here 50 years ago or ten years ago, or if you're a white Brit whose family have been here for about 300 years or more.

We are all equal before the law of our land, and we should all support that principle, but not use it so as to pit our citizens against one another. That is not what this moment demands.

14:20

Florence Eshalomi MP (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Florence Eshalomi thank you, Mr. >> Florence Eshalomi thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the Home Secretary for coming to the chamber this afternoon and and as many this afternoon and and as many Honourable and right hon. Members have said, no one can be moved after watching that footage. And after watching that footage. And and and just seeing a young life being wasted like that. But I think just the inhumane and degrading treatment that Henry had to go through in his last few moments is something that will stay with the family, something that will stay with the family when the news coverage has moved on, something that will stay with the family after those police officers have been prosecuted.

Because when someone is killed by a murderer who is intent on killing, regardless of your race, it is the families and the communities that have to deal with the long term impact. Many of us in this chamber have had to comfort constituents who've lost a family member through knife crime, and this epidemic across the UK has to come to a stop. How is it possible that this killer was allowed to roam the streets with the 21 centimetre knife and freely stab someone and then lie? It is really important that we do make sure that this government gets to grips with that.

So I want to ask the Home Secretary as soon as the IOPC conclude and find the find the findings of this investigation, will she come back to this House and make sure that the government adequately responds so that we are not back here again, having to to to answer and and try to console another family whose life has been taken by knife crime.

14:21

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Secretary. it is right. Whilst the Iopc investigation is taking place, that we give that the space it needs to do its important work and it will be wholly wrong for Ministers to try to pre-empt what findings might be made in the future. But as soon as those findings are made, I will ensure the government responds.

14:22

Paul Holmes MP (Hamble Valley, Conservative)

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Paul Holmes thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, and can I welcome the Home Secretary's statement this afternoon and just say that I think afternoon and just say that I think we all in this House need to be careful that our response to what is a sad loss of life, of a young is a sad loss of life, of a young man who was going to a vibrant university in a fantastic and welcoming city with the rest of his life supposedly ahead of him, notwithstanding what the Home Secretary has said, and I'm grateful for her saying that the Iopc will receive full resourcing, has she done any thinking as to what other investigations her department might need to do into the conduct of Hampshire Constabulary? Can she confirm whether the officers in question have been suspended pending the investigation? And also, could she outline whether she's currently looking at whether she needs to needs to make changes to the

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exemptions to carrying knives for religious or cultural purposes? Home Secretary.

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Home Secretary. I thank the hon. Member for for his contribution and his questions. Let me say to him, on the question of suspensions, that is a matter for the Iopc because of the way that they make their initial that they make their initial findings and then obviously react to the evidence as it all becomes available. And of course, now that

14:23

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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the criminal proceedings have concluded, they will be able to ramp up and go faster on, on, on that process. So again, it wouldn't be appropriate for Ministers to be either cited on that or seek to direct it in any way. But but I know that, you know, staff at the Iopc are watching, and to the extent that there are clarifications or questions that need answering, I'm sure that they will they will respond, but they are wholly independent of government.

Let me say to him, on the exemptions for the carrying of knives for the purposes of religious ceremonial purposes, this has been a long standing part of our arrangements as a way of balancing public safety alongside religious freedom. It has been supported by successive governments, including this one, so we are not seeking to move away from our respect for religious freedom. The wider sort of context is an important question. It is always worth serious consideration. But for myself, I think my approach here will be to engage directly with representatives from the Sikh community and also knife crime campaigners.

I think these are issues of a common cause. Rather than pitting those two groups against one another. But I would just repeat the point I made in my statement. There is a world of difference between a person acting out of religious observance, carrying something as an act of faith, and somebody unsheathing that weapon and using it to kill somebody. And that individual has met the full force of the law.

14:24

Jonathan Hinder MP (Pendle and Clitheroe, Labour)

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Jonathan Hinder thank. >> Bigger champion for policing in this. House than me. >> But the body worn footage of Henry Nowak death is gut wrenching, Henry Nowak death is gut wrenching, and the police response is on the basis of what we know so far, basis of what we know so far, unfathomable. So it's right that the Iopc is investigating, but very often these investigations, as everyone around policing knows, have taken far, far too long, sometimes many years, which is not good for anybody involved.

So can the Home Secretary assure me that she will press the Iopc to report as quickly as possible? Most of all, for Henry's family.

14:25

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Secretary. >> Hon. Friend speaks powerfully from deep personal professional experience, which I pay tribute to. experience, which I pay tribute to. Let me assure him that I, as a constituency member of Parliament, have met, have had many concerns about the length of time it takes the Iopc sometimes to report concerns that I've raised with them directly since I've been at Home Secretary on this occasion and in relation to this case. However, I do think, given that the investigation started in December, the criminal investigation and case has only just concluded in relation to the murderer.

And given that the Iopc have said they expect to report within three months, I do believe that this this investigation is proceeding at the pace that this House would would expect, and I'm sure the Iopc are reflecting on the tenor of the debate today and will understand the need for urgency and to make sure the family have answers as quickly as is humanly possible.

14:26

Liz Jarvis MP (Eastleigh, Liberal Democrat)

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Liz Jarvis thank you, Mr. Speaker. My thoughts are with Henry Speaker. My thoughts are with Henry Nowak family, friends and the local community. The prosecution said the perpetrator had a weapons obsession. It should not have been so easy for somebody with a weapons obsession somebody with a weapons obsession to amass an arsenal of knives. What is the Minister doing to reduce the availability of dangerous knives on our streets?

14:26

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Secretary. important point. She will know that we have legislated the Crime and Policing Act became law just a few short weeks ago. The measures short weeks ago. The measures within that act will be implemented at pace by this government, but they relate to the possession of weapons, the buying of weapons, whether online or elsewhere, new duties on sellers of knives to report larger sales or bulk sales of knives. The government has taken a broad range of measures in order to deal with the scourge of knife crime in our country.

Those measures have just become law. We will ensure that the law is implemented as quickly as possible so that we can get on top of this issue.

14:27

Sonia Kumar MP (Dudley, Labour)

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Sonia Kumar thank you, Mr. Speaker. The death of Henry Nowak Speaker. The death of Henry Nowak is a horrifying tragedy, and my thoughts are with his family, friends and community. As a house, friends and community. As a house, we must honour the words of his father not to use this tragedy to father not to use this tragedy to create further hatred or division or tension, and the house should not go against those wishes. They want action so no other family goes through what they are going through right now.

Will my right hon. Friend guarantee that she will go further and faster to tackle knife crime, so no one fears walking the streets of the UK?

14:28

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Home Secretary let me say simply to my hon. Friend makes a powerful to my hon. Friend makes a powerful point and yes, I will. >> Kirsty Blackman thank you very much. Please can the Home Secretary much. Please can the Home Secretary ensure that the Iopc report or the findings from the report are shared with Police Scotland and in fact, with all police forces across these islands, in order to ensure that any recommended structural or procedural changes and lessons can be learned by all forces and then be learned by all forces and then can be implemented.

Home Secretary.

14:28

Kirsty Blackman MP (Aberdeen North, Scottish National Party)

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The hon. Lady makes a very good point, and let me say to her that although of course some of these responsibilities are devolved, I. I do hope that other legislators in our country will show interest here, and certainly myself and my Ministers do engage with our partners in devolved administrations, and we will continue to do so and discuss this matter as well.

14:29

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I also want to thank the Home Secretary for her statement. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think I wear the

14:29

Gurinder Singh Josan MP (Smethwick, Labour)

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five K every day part of my religious observance, including the religious observance, including the carbon. And as a Sikh, I. I really struggle to express the feelings of struggle to express the feelings of sheer horror that this case has generated within me, my family and generated within me, my family and my my my my friends. It is absolutely. You know, it has been. The senseless murder of Henry Nowak should be condemned in its entirety by everybody. And, you know, young man's life has been taken in his prime, and I wish to express mine and my constituency.

Full sympathy and condolences for the family of Henry Nowak who have shown incredible dignity in their grief. Madam Deputy Speaker. I totally condemn the action of Vickrum Digwa, the the mindless, the senseless murder, the lies and. There is simply no religious justification for his actions. And I'm relieved that our criminal justice system and the courts came to the same conclusion. And that is a sentiment that is shared universally across the Sikh community. Madam Deputy Speaker this case has raised many aspects of concern to my constituents Sikh and Non-sikh.

These include issues of safety, knife crime and issues of freedom to practice one's faith. So will the Secretary of State meet with me and colleagues to discuss these issues further?

14:30

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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I thank my hon. Friend for his contribution, and let me again emphasise the dignity and the grace shown by Henry's family. Their response has been something I don't believe I would have been capable of if I had been in their shoes, and it is an example to us all. Let and it is an example to us all. Let me say to him on the broader issues there are there will be many issues in relation to this case. Once the Iopc investigation is concluded, we'll be able to draw further conclusions as to the facts, the police response and and wider problems as well.

Always happy to discuss with him the the, the the different nature of the issues raised in this case, and in particular on how we get the right balance between the religious freedoms that he and I both enjoy as members of faith minorities in our country, and also the need to make sure that public protection is never compromised.

14:31

Joy Morrissey MP (Beaconsfield, Conservative)

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Morrissey. >> Morrissey. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Henry Nowak tragic murder was sadly, stark proof that we have become a stark proof that we have become a country where we no longer treat everyone as equal under the law. Does the Home Secretary agree it is time to put a stop to the political correctness that has overpowered common sense policing? And will she commit to and end the nonsense of police cultural competency training being put ahead of protecting every citizen, regardless of race?

14:32

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Yes. >> Let me reiterate my belief and expectation that the police must always act without fear or favour and treat all citizens equally and treat all citizens equally before the law. I hope she will recognise that the vast majority of our police officers run towards our police officers run towards danger every day to keep us all safe, and in the vast majority of cases, they get the balance right between how they respond to a specific case and also more broadly, how they keep communities safe, where there are issues, lessons must be learned.

And I'm sure once the IOPC investigation is concluded, we will do so.

14:32

Ms Stella Creasy MP (Walthamstow, Labour )

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We see. for all of us as MPs, the time we spend with families who lose a family member in horrific circumstances stays with us circumstances stays with us throughout our career, and I know my community. There will be many parents who sadly lost children to knife crime, who will have seen knife crime, who will have seen Martin Oakes statement and felt every single word and want to send their condolences to the family. They will also be acutely aware of how difficult watch that body camera footage was, and his words about not seeing the tragedy infused in flame division.

Given that, and given how some people are interpreting this matter and the misinformation that is circulating, I wonder what thought the Home Secretary has given to how we can have trusted sources of information about this issue, because there is an important need for scrutiny and transparency about what has happened. And in that context, where there is so much misinformation, we need sources of light, not heat. What more could the Home Office do on that matter? Please, Home Secretary?

14:33

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Well, let me say to my hon. >> Well, let me say to my hon. Friend, we in the Home Office have a responsibility that we seek always to fulfil, to make sure that always to fulfil, to make sure that we act calmly and responsibly with the full facts at our disposal. And if we do not have the full facts at if we do not have the full facts at our disposal, we wait until we do before we comment so as not to put out misleading or false information.

The wider environment she is right, is very challenging and of course, the government is taking action by other government departments in relation to Online Safety Act and other digital platforms. I'm sure those are conversations we will return to, because there is no doubt on social media in particular, the environment is very challenging for making sure that the truth is able to be established, rather than misinformation and straight up lies as well. I think we have a responsibility also in this House, collectively, to make sure that we are the ones that shine light rather than heat on these matters, so that we can hold our country together and make sure that all of our citizens are treated fairly.

14:34

Rt Hon Sammy Wilson MP (East Antrim, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Sammy Wilson. sympathies go out to the family, who must have been horrified by what they saw on the police footage. How have we reached the stage in How have we reached the stage in this country where when the police go to an incident, they arrest a dying man because they're afraid of being accused of racism by his murderer? And this is something which is affecting police right across the United Kingdom. Only this week, in my constituency, in a park on the edge of my constituency, the police were called where a gather of Muslims men were seen to be carrying weapons.

No arrests were made. Excuses were made for the carrying of the weapons, and the anger of the community is palpable, with the Secretary of State. Make it clear to the police that policing should be based on, not on fear of racism or direction by chief constables, but. And it shouldn't be based on the colour of people's skin, people. The police should carry out their duty impartially, and two tiered policing only diminishes the police, undermines their credibility and undermines their standing in the community, which is bad for everybody.

Great.

14:36

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Well, let me say to the hon. Gentleman they can, of course, be no suggestion of two tier policing. no suggestion of two tier policing. And we would never and no one would ever stand for that. I hope he would acknowledge that the police would acknowledge that the police respond to danger every single day and have to make quick decisions in very difficult circumstances. And in the vast majority of cases, they do get things right. And I do think it's important that we acknowledge the broader picture in relation to policing.

Of course, when things go wrong or if the balance is not struck correctly, that should be investigated, scrutinised and lessons must always be learned. But but I wouldn't want us to be in a position where we just accept that somehow there are, you know, big problems here in relation to how our police, generally speaking, approach their job. I do agree that any instances where it looks like something has gone wrong do cost public confidence within policing, but that is why we have the independent arrangements that we do with the Iopc to investigate fully, to make findings of fact, that then the government and others can take action on Harpreet Uppal.

14:37

Harpreet Uppal MP (Huddersfield, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Henry Nowak murder was a senseless, Henry Nowak murder was a senseless, evil act, a criminal act that Vickrum Digwa bears responsibility for that he provided false claims for that he provided false claims to evade responsibility is horrific. The actions of the perpetrator do The actions of the perpetrator do not represent a whole community, and I know the Sikh community in the UK wholly condemn it. Many of us are deeply distressed about the circumstances of Henry's death and his treatment in the final moments.

So how will the Secretary of State ensure that those lessons are learned and that Henry's families, Henry's family, are put first and fully considered, and on knife crime? How will ensure that the root causes are dealt with and that resources are provided to agencies, Secretary.

14:37

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Well, let me assure her that the >> Well, let me assure her that the Knife Crime Action Plan is funded, and we have put significant money behind violence reduction units and behind violence reduction units and other measures that we know are absolutely imperative in dealing with knife crime in our country. with knife crime in our country. And let me assure her again, as soon as the IOPC investigation is concluded, I will make sure the House is updated.

14:38

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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Sir Julian Lewis is it normal police practice to handcuff the police practice to handcuff the person lying helpless on the ground and clearly offering no resistance, and clearly offering no resistance, and given her admirable and utter rejection of differential treatment rejection of differential treatment of people according to their race, will she undertake to examine and withdraw the policing policy document identified by the shadow Home Secretary as embodying precisely such differential treatment?

14:38

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Secretary well, let me say to him, on policing practice and the him, on policing practice and the specifics of this case, that is precisely what the IOPC is looking at, because they take into account context and what the expectations of police officers are, given the specific contexts of danger that specific contexts of danger that they that they face. And the IOPC will look into that once they've made their findings of fact. I will, of course, return to the House. And let me say again, look, on the issue of differential treatment, he will know he is a member of long standing in this House.

We have had many debates where, from the opposite end of the spectrum, if I might put it like that. Today we are talking primarily about what the white community in this instance. But there have been many debates in this House about differential treatment for minority communities as well. It's why I say I don't think it's helpful for us to look at this through a specific lens. It is much broader than that. I will, of course, make sure that I always engage with the police on the specifics of their policies, but it is not my view that the police are institutionally or systemically operating a system of differential treatment, and we will always make sure that we guard against that, and I will work with the police to make sure that never happens.

very.

14:39

Mr Toby Perkins MP (Chesterfield, Labour)

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Much, Deputy Speaker. I welcome >> Much, Deputy Speaker. I welcome the Home Secretary's fierce rejection of two tier policing, or rejection of two tier policing, or any suggestion that people should be judged differently according to be judged differently according to their colour. The footage that we saw was one of the most sickening things that I've ever seen, and my heart goes out to the Nowak family, who had to witness that. She's absolutely right to say that we must wait for the Iopc investigation.

But if it does turn out that some kind of misguided application of the culture of policing has led to the victim being not believed while the murderer was believed, what more will she be able to do to make sure that every single police officer hears loud and clear her message that everyone deserves to be policed, regardless of the colour

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way? Secretary well, let me give my hon. Friend that assurance that as soon as the Iopc investigation has concluded and they have made their concluded and they have made their findings in relation to the specific circumstances of this case, I'll make sure we return to this House so that we have an opportunity to debate collectively what the correct response will be, but let me just reassure him and

14:41

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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but let me just reassure him and everybody else. I will never stand for a system where there is any suggestion of differential treatment before the law. We are all equal before the law, and every lesson that we learn must always live up to that abiding principle.

14:41

Rt Hon Suella Braverman KC MP (Fareham and Waterlooville, Reform UK)

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Suella Braverman Madam Deputy Speaker Henry Nowak was murdered. Speaker Henry Nowak was murdered. >> Near my constituency of Fareham and Waterlooville, and. >> Local people. >> Are rightly furious with

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Are rightly furious with Hampshire police. Those officers who attended the scene, but also who attended the scene, but also those leading the force. It's important to remember that Henry's murderer accused him of racism. And in honour of Henry's legacy, it's important that we're all abundantly clear. The judge found absolutely zero evidence to back up that claim. Does Home Secretary agree that a false accusation of racism against a white person is just as bad, if not worse, than a legitimate claim

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of racism because of the deceit? Does she also agree that watching That body cam footage, it is clear that police officers treated Henry with disdain and contempt and arguably negligence because of the arguably negligence because of the colour of his skin. We are hearing number ten say that two tier number ten say that two tier policing does not exist. Home Secretary where is the leadership today? British people are furious.

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The leadership is not coming from the government. You hear Home Secretary? Well, let me say I disagree with her entirely. I think that good leadership in these circumstances, actually great leadership has already been shown by the family of Henry Nowak in the tenor of their response and their statement and their desire, rightly, in my view,

14:42

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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to not see this murder be used as a tool of furthering division in our country. And I think we could all country. And I think we could all do well to take our lead from Henry's family. But let me also say Henry's family. But let me also say to her, I am in the House today. I'm answering questions. I've undertaken to come back once the undertaken to come back once the IOPC investigation has concluded. She. She is a former home secretary. She will know these independent She will know these independent arrangements exist so that people can have confidence in the findings that are made in cases such as this, and to know that they are done without political interference or for political ends.

Let me say to her on the broader question point that she made at the start of her contribution on false allegations. Lies are lies, and they must be called out as such. And where a lie is criminal or criminal or leads to criminality, it must face the full force of the law. That is what has happened in this case. There has been a measure of justice because the criminal case has concluded and the murderer has been found guilty of murder, and the judge has made further findings in relation to the circumstances of this case.

And again, I would urge her and some of her colleagues when commenting on this case. They stick to the facts as they have been established.

14:43

Jas Athwal MP (Ilford South, Labour)

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Jas Athwal thank. >> You, Madam Deputy Speaker, and can I thank the Home Secretary and the Shadow Home Secretary for the the Shadow Home Secretary for the way they introduced this very sensitive issue. The murder of sensitive issue. The murder of Henry Nowak was a wicked act of brutality. His family and all those who loved him have been left with an unimaginable grief, mourning their brother, their son and their friend, who they'll never, ever get back. I know members across the House share my devastation at this vile murder by this vile individual.

However, some members have been using the horrific incident as political capital, spreading disinformation for their own Guildford. Does the Home Secretary agree that politicians have a responsibility to act with decorum, to focus on Henry, who lost his life and his grieving family, who have lost a son, a brother rather

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than fan. The flames of Division Home Secretary. I agree with my hon. Friend and

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I agree with my hon. Friend and I do believe on this matter we should take our lead from Henry's

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family, who I think have set an example for us all to follow. Doctor Luke Evans.

14:45

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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>> Doctor Luke Evans. >> I've been stabbed versus he racially abused me. How is the racially abused me. How is the government going to rebuild public confidence in our culture and institutions that attempted to rank people by their perceived oppression, rather than judging each person on their own actions? each person on their own actions? And the reality Secretary.

14:45

Dr Luke Evans MP (Hinckley and Bosworth, Conservative)

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Well, look, let me just repeat to the hon. Gentleman the point I've already made in this debate. There can be no suggestion of two tier policing in our country, and the vast majority of cases, the police apply the law fairly and without fear or favour, and they without fear or favour, and they must always do so. Once the Iopc investigation has concluded, I'll make sure that the specific lessons from the circumstances of this case are learned and acted upon.

14:45

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Calvin Bailey thank you, Madam.

14:46

Mr Calvin Bailey MP (Leyton and Wanstead, Labour)

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Deputy Speaker. the utmost severity, and I'm pleased that it's been treated as such by our courts. This is a case about a murder of a young man, and about a murder of a young man, and our thoughts should remain with Henry Nowak family. We do not know why the officers acted as they did, but there is nothing in the Macpherson inquiry that can be blamed upon the apparent lack of humanity displayed in the body worn camera footage. Does the Home Secretary agree with me that we should reflect upon the words of Henry's father, Mark Nowak, who asked that his son's death should not be used to create further division, hatred or tension? And does she agree that this is entirely what the interventions of the member of Clacton and others seek to do?

14:46

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Home Secretary. >> Look, I thank my hon. Friend for his contribution. Let me say I do. I do agree with him. He's. He's I do agree with him. He's. He's right to refer to the words of Henry's father. Many members have received have referred to those received have referred to those words rightly today, and it is something that we should all bear in mind. Let me just reiterate again. I will ensure that all of the lessons that must be learned from this case are learned and are acted upon properly, but this case must turns on its own facts and its own circumstances, and is not to be used, in my view, to unwind other changes that were made in order to

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rebuild public confidence in policing. Thomas. Madam Deputy. Speaker. This cowardly.

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This cowardly. Murder is not a reflection upon the Sikh community, which has the Sikh community, which has integrated itself with honour and modesty into the UK. I understand that the weapon wielded was not that traditionally carried by Sikhs.

14:47

Cameron Thomas MP (Tewkesbury, Liberal Democrat)

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that traditionally carried by Sikhs. I am, however, I, however, believe that this murder may give reasonable grounds to review existing exemptions to knife legislation on the grounds of religious reasons and national dress. I know that the Home Secretary wants to half knife crime within the next ten years. What message do these exemptions give? Is she honestly going to rule out at least a review?

14:48

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Home Secretary. >> Well, let me just say to the hon. Gentleman, as I as I've said earlier in this debate, our earlier in this debate, our religious freedoms and the arrangements we have are long standing and have been designed to strike the right balance between strike the right balance between religious freedom and public protection. I have said earlier in this debate that the wider question is something that is worthy of serious consideration, which is what I will give to it.

But I would want to start that process by discussing with the Sikh community themselves to knife crime campaigners and also the police about this matter. That I think is the right way to proceed, rather than launching a formal review. Because actually, as the judge found in this case, this was not an act of religious observance. What? The minute that knife was unsheathed to be used, it became a murder weapon. And the murderer has now faced the full force of the law.

14:49

Alex Baker MP (Aldershot, Labour)

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Alex Baker thank you, Madam >> Alex Baker thank you, Madam Speaker. My thoughts are with the family and friends of Henry Nowak. It was absolutely gut wrenching to see the video footage of the body see the video footage of the body worn camera in Hampshire. This murder has left people deeply shocked, not only by the violence of the act, but by the circumstances as he lay dying. I'm pleased to hear that the Iopc will have the resources they need to fully investigate, and I'm also glad to hear that the Hampshire Police and Crime Commissioner has said that she will ensure that those those those recommendations are fully implemented.

Mistakes have clearly been made, but will the Home Secretary ensure that Hampshire and Isle of Wight Constabulary receive any support needed to implement the Iopc findings in full, and that lessons on victim recognition and officer judgement and impartiality are acted on swiftly.

14:50

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Home Secretary yes, I can give my hon. Friend that assurance and in fact, the Policing Minister met with the Police and Crime with the Police and Crime Commissioner earlier on today. >> Shockat Adam thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. We do not want Henry's murder to be used to create further hatred, division or tension. Those are the words of a heartbroken father, and I pray we heartbroken father, and I pray we all, all heed them in this house. This is a heinous crime made all the worse by the shocking police response.

And there must be lessons. So can I ask the Home Secretary what she is going to do differently what she is going to do differently to crack down on the epidemic of knife crime, possibly a dedicated knife crime? Minister and what steps will she take to ensure that steps will she take to ensure that our Sikh community overwhelmingly, overwhelmingly peaceful and overwhelmingly integrated, are not held collectively responsible by those that wish to divide us?

14:50

Shockat Adam MP (Leicester South, Independent)

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Home Secretary.

14:50

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Let me just say to my knife crime. The government has a landmark commitment to halve the levels of knife crime in this levels of knife crime in this country. Over the next decade. We have our landmark Knife Crime Action plan. It is a funded action plan. The Prime Minister has taken a personal interest in that commitment, and this government will strain every sinew to deliver on that.

14:51

Graham Stringer MP (Blackley and Middleton South, Labour)

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Graham Stringer thank. >> You, Madam Deputy Speaker. In the 80s and 90s in this country, many police officers carried out many police officers carried out their duties in a prejudicial and racist way. And I'm proud, together racist way. And I'm proud, together with many others, of having worked to eliminate that racism as much as we could. We are now left with maybe a more difficult problem to deal with. Many police officers and other public servants are now frightened that they will be accused of racism in carrying out those duties.

What action does the Home Secretary think she can take and the Cabinet can take to reassure people who are accused of racism? That proper process will

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affect them, and it won't just leave them out of a job forever. I'm Secretary. Well, let me say firstly, my hon.

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Well, let me say firstly, my hon. Friend is right to remind the House of the historic context in relation of the historic context in relation to policing in this country and on the question of of racism itself. the question of of racism itself. And many minority communities have been on the receiving end of of that treatment in the past. It is

14:52

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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that treatment in the past. It is right that the system as a whole has sought to learn those lessons and to deliver a policing service that we can all be confident in, and to know that we are all treated fairly under the law. That is what I will ensure continues to be the case going forward. I would say to him, on the question of accusations, when accusations are made, whether in a legal and policing context or indeed throughout other parts of the public sector, they are just that.

They are accusations. And we should remember the principles of our broader justice system when it comes to innocence and findings of guilt and the fairness of procedures to give people a chance to explain themselves without findings of fact being made against them. Before that has happened, I would expect to see that happen throughout the criminal justice system, but also throughout wider society as well.

14:53

Jim Allister KC MP (North Antrim, Traditional Unionist Voice)

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Jim, after. >> Thank you. >> When the race card was played by his murderer, was Henry Nowak his murderer, was Henry Nowak treated differently because of the colour of his skin, causing the innocent victim to be handcuffed and the murderer pandered to.

14:53

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Three. >> Well, the the reaction of the police officers who attended the scene to the. The circumstances that they faced is what the Iopc is investigating. Once that investigation is complete and investigation is complete and findings of fact are made, I'll be happy to discuss the further House.

14:54

Chris Webb MP (Blackpool South, Labour)

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Chris Webb thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and I join colleagues across the House offering my thoughts and prayers to offering my thoughts and prayers to Henry's family for his vile and disgusting murder. Unfortunately, we're seeing those far right groups we're seeing those far right groups in Blackpool and across the country using Henry's death and weaponising using Henry's death and weaponising it to create more hatred. So can Home Secretary join me in condemning those in Blackpool and across the country, and make sure that we honour the powerful call from his family, who don't want it to be used for further division, hatred or, you know, tension in this country.

14:54

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Let me join with my hon. Friend and members across this House in condemning the actions of the far right utterly. They are completely unacceptable and we should all take a stand against them. Weaponising a stand against them. Weaponising this, this horrifying murder, this terrible tragedy for the Nowak family in order to spread further division is not what this moment requires, and I hope that that can have broad support from across the House.

14:55

Carla Lockhart MP (Upper Bann, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Carla Lockhart thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My thoughts are with Henry Stanley. As I listened to his dad yesterday, I couldn't to his dad yesterday, I couldn't help but cry myself at the loss that they have suffered and the that they have suffered and the fact that that video footage is etched in their mind forever. Madam Deputy Speaker, it appears in the UK we have an undercurrent of anti-white racism brewing. We see white people jailed for allegedly inciting racial hatred on social media.

But members of other communities not even prosecuted for viciously attacking police officers Henry Nowak deserved better. He did not deserve to be attacked. He did not deserve to spend his final moments pleading for help and saying he could not breathe. He did not deserve not to be believed. Above all, he did not deserve to die. Why did it take this government until yesterday to speak out on this matter whilst running to virtue signal on many other cases? Is the UK no longer a safe place for people like Henry Nowak Home Secretary?

14:56

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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I do say to the hon. Lady, the reason the government hasn't commented until yesterday is because there was a criminal case because there was a criminal case that was going through our courts, members of this House and certainly members of the government are not members of the government are not commentators for the purposes of social media. They are Ministers of the Crown and they must respect the independence of our criminal justice system and the ability of our courts and our independent legal processes to function so that when findings of fact are made, a conviction happens and a sentence is passed.

It commands public confidence across the whole country because everyone knows it has not been interfered with politically. It is an independent assessment of the facts of a case. And I would remind her and all members that that is the responsibility we all have, and I would urge her to reflect on that.

14:56

Tom Rutland MP (East Worthing and Shoreham, Labour)

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Tom Rutland thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank my Deputy Speaker, and I thank my right hon. Friend for her statement, and can I offer my condolences to Henry Nowak family who've been Henry Nowak family who've been through an appalling ordeal. What assurances can my right hon. Friend provide that Henry Nowak family's concerns regarding the initial police response are being fully considered by the relevant authorities? That lessons will be learned from this terrible incident, so that no other family has to see their loved one doubted in their final moments by those who should be helping them.

14:57

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Home Secretary yes, let me give that assurance to him and through that assurance to him and through him to the family, as I've done so earlier and in particular in my statement today, they asked a statement today, they asked a specific question of me when they responded yesterday. And, and, and I have met that challenge, and I I have met that challenge, and I will ensure we continue to meet that challenge and that they get the answers that they need and that they deserve.

14:57

Tristan Osborne MP (Chatham and Aylesford, Labour)

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Oral Question Tristan Osborne. Home Secretary for coming to the House today? And can I also extend the sympathies on behalf of my constituents to the family of Henry constituents to the family of Henry Nowak and what is a heinous and horrific crime? There is speculation online about the identities of these police officers, and it's also putting other officers at risk across the country due to the irresponsible speculation of extreme right groups and others, which are fanning the flames of tension.

Can the Home Secretary confirm to me what we are doing to protect our officers on a daily basis in regards to this, and also comment on this irresponsible speculation that is being undertaken online?

14:58

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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Home Secretary speculation online is not just irresponsible, it is wholly unacceptable. And as I it is wholly unacceptable. And as I said in my statement earlier, we should all take a stand against that. It is putting people who are that. It is putting people who are not connected with this case at risk, but also for the officers that have been connected to this that have been connected to this case. There is a proper process that must be allowed to take its course, that will investigate their conduct and make the appropriate findings in the proper way.

We should all, in this House, stand up for the independence of that process, the space for that process to conclude so that once it has concluded, we can debate thoroughly the lessons that must be learned.

14:59

Jen Craft MP (Thurrock, Labour)

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That is the end of. Point of order Jen Craft. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, on the 21st of May at Business Questions, the hon. Member for Newark asked a question relating to the murder of my constituent, Henry the murder of my constituent, Henry Nowak. At the time, the case against his murderer was still ongoing. The Member for Newark gave ongoing. The Member for Newark gave numerous details of the crime itself, including accusations that had been made by the now convicted murderer.

I'm led to believe that matters, subject to ongoing criminal cases are considered subjudice and members should not speak about the details of such cases due to the risk of prejudicing proceedings and, in the worst case scenario, could cause a mistrial. Can he imagine the impact that that would have had on my constituents to have had to go through the trauma and horror of a trial, only to have to go through it again because a politician had been impatient and reckless. I will be grateful for your advice, Madam Deputy Speaker, on how members should conduct themselves when wishing to raise matters that are subjudice, and whether the Member for Newark owes an apology to the members of this House who have abided by this convention, respecting the family's right to justice and who he has repeatedly castigated online.

And if indeed he owes an apology to my constituents, who themselves have refrained from publicly giving voice to their justified horror at the initial police response to, until the trial has concluded, to make sure that their loved one could receive justice.

15:00

Ms Nusrat Ghani MP (Sussex Weald, Conservative)

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I thank the honourable. >> Member. >> For giving notice of her point of order and understand that she has indeed informed the Member for has indeed informed the Member for Newark in advance. The House is sub judice. Resolution is a significant self-imposed restrictions on self-imposed restrictions on freedom of speech in this House. Its purpose is to prevent prejudice to individual cases and to preserve comity with the courts. As she notes, the clerks in the table office are always happy to advise members on the sub judice rule and its application to proceedings.

It is, however, ultimately the member's responsibility to avoid infringing the sub judice rule and to exercise freedom of speech Lockhart.

15:01

Carla Lockhart MP (Upper Bann, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and apologies for not giving prior notice, but it's pertaining to the notice, but it's pertaining to the answer that was given to me in the previous session. Could she advise previous session. Could she advise if records can be checked from the frontbenches as to whether or not the. This House discussed and debated the murder of the three little girls in Southport before the murderer was sentenced, and also in the case of Sir David Amess, because I believe both were brought to this house before the murder was sentenced.

The hon. Member.

15:01

Ms Nusrat Ghani MP (Sussex Weald, Conservative)

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Did not give me prior notice of >> Did not give me prior notice of her point of order. First of all, the chair is not responsible for the content of the speeches or the the content of the speeches or the contributions made by backbenchers, let alone the front benches. I do not have the information to hand about those two particular issues that she's raised, but no doubt the clerk can provide that information in a moment or two whilst they look up that research or that bit of information that she so requires, as you, as the member will know as well, the government is responsible for the statements that they bring forward to the House.

Now, if that is the end of the points of order, I'll allow the front bench, if they wish to, to shuffle over. Everyone else should leave the chamber if they wish to do so very quietly and very quickly. Mr. Philip, are you leaving? Are you staying, Mr. Philp? Are you? Go, go, go. Wonderful. Then. Of course, of course.

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formally. I beg to move. The question is, as on the order

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The question is, as on the order papers made that say aye. Of the contrary, no. I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. The clerk

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it. The ayes have it. The clerk will now proceed to read the orders of the day. Armed Forces Bill Committee.

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Armed Forces Bill Committee.

15:03

Legislation: Committee of the whole House on the Armed Forces Bill

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Order! Armed Forces Bill.

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Armed Forces Bill. The debate will take place on the proposition that clause one stand part together with other clause and schedule stand part of questions and the amendments and new clauses that have been selected and are grouped together. I remind and are grouped together. I remind members that in the committee, members should not address the chair as Deputy Speaker, please add chair as Deputy Speaker, please add the user names when addressing the chair as Madam Chair, chair or Madam Chairman are also acceptable.

The question is that clause one stand part of the bill and I call the Minister Minister Al Carns.

15:04

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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15:25

Rt Hon Mark Francois MP (Rayleigh and Wickford, Conservative)

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15:47

Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi MP (Slough, Labour)

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Defence Select Committee Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi. >> Thank you very much, Madam Chair. May I begin by thanking the Minister and his team at the Minister and his team at the Ministry of Defence for their engagement with the Defence Committee on this legislation, Committee on this legislation, including the helpful briefing they gave us ahead of Second Reading. I would also like to thank the Select Committee on the bill, including my good friend and the hon. Member from Eltham, who has done him and his committee have done incredible work on the Select Committee, and I also want to place on record my thanks to my committee colleagues, the honourable and gallant members, the members for North Devon and for Tunbridge Wells who served on that committee.

The Defence committee naturally takes a close interest in the areas affected by this bill, beginning with clause two. We strongly welcome that the government is extending the Armed Forces Covenant to new policy areas and making the duty binding on Whitehall departments and the devolved administrations. This is something we recommended in our inquiry report on the covenant last year. At the time, we said that legislation would be only one part of the solution for strengthening the covenant, and that the government needed to make sure that the covenant legal duty is more consistently applied by improving guidance and training.

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On that point, will he give way? I will, I thank my hon. Friend for I will, I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. The Armed Forces Covenant is one of the most impressive things, in my opinion, about this bill, not just UK wide, about this bill, not just UK wide, but also for the 115,000 veterans in Wales and their families who in Wales and their families who will now benefit from the legal duty of public services to take into consideration their specific circumstances.

Will he join with me in wishing a very happy Armed Forces Day to Prestatyn Royal British Legion branch, as I will when I celebrate this special day and commemorate with them later

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this month. I thank my hon. Friend and

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I thank my hon. Friend and indeed commend her intervention and extend her and join her in extending my best wishes, because it is welcome, Madam Chair, that the government has now published its draft guidance on the legal duty. I'm pleased to see that it includes an explanation of what it includes an explanation of what it means to pay due regard to the covenant, as witnesses to our inquiry told us that this phrase can sometimes seem ambiguous, and I hope that the Minister will consult widely with those affected by the legal duty to make sure this guidance meets their needs.

Our committee will be watching very closely to see whether the expanded covenant is being delivered and making a positive difference for our armed Forces community. Madam chair, the creation of a new Defence Housing Service service in clause three of the Bill is also very, very welcome. I'm pleased that the government has made it a priority to modernise the defence estate and has committed £9 billion over ten years to support its work. The challenge for the Minister, though, will be to ensure that this funding is delivered as promised.

In the current geopolitical climate, it is not hard to imagine how a government might come under pressure to divert scarce resources in response to some crisis, and I hope that the government will uphold its commitment to our service families come what may. Madam chair, turning briefly to clause four, the new powers to counter uncrewed devices are sorely needed. My committee's inquiry into defence in the Grey zone examined the many kinds of hybrid threat posed by hostile states, including drones.

The armed forces need to have the power to deal with these threats, to show our adversaries that their hybrid tactics will not work against us. Now, turning to the measures on service, just. Yes, I will give way.

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I thank the chair of that committee for giving way. I have the opportunity to meet with the Ministry of Defence, Police and the Ministry of Defence, Police and the Chief Constable of the Ministry of Defence, Police at RAF Wyton in my constituency the other day, and I was very impressed by the was very impressed by the Counter-drone capability that they are now equipped with vastly in excess of what the Home Office policing teams now have. I think policing teams now have. I think it's a very simple solution to the counter-drone capability that we should have at all of our bases, should have at all of our bases, and I would urge him to put pressure on the Minister to try and roll out the new CPM.

Wilson and Watson drone drone weapons or counter-drone weapons, rather that they had to all of our bases to make sure that that capability is as widespread as possible.

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Madam chair, I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon for making that intervention, and indeed, the Defence Committee had indeed, the Defence Committee had the good fortune to view some of these counter-drone measures during one of our visits as well, so I one of our visits as well, so I fully concur with his views. But, Madam Chair, turning now to the Madam Chair, turning now to the measures on service justice, they are focussed on better supporting victims of serious offences.

As the Minister knows, this is a subject that comes up again and again in the Defence Committee's regular sessions on women in the armed forces, and so I am pleased that this is a focus of the Bill. It is only right that the Bill brings protections available in the service justice system, such as the domestic abuse orders and stalking protection orders, into line with those available in the civilian system. The new reporting requirements and the victims code are also welcome changes, but it has been our experience as a committee and for our predecessors that new initiatives do not always have the impact we would hope for, because they take place in an environment and culture that doesn't take the needs of victims as seriously as it should.

And I know that you cannot legislate for culture Madam Chair, but I will make the point that unless there is proper training on the measures in this bill and a message from leaders throughout defence that things must change, it is likely our or our Committee will continue to hear stories from victims who feel let down by the service justice system. Turning now to reserves. The Bill also aims to update the way defence uses them, and I welcome clause 31, which will make it easier to move between the regular and reserve forces.

This will support more flexible career paths, allowing people with military expertise to move into roles in industry and vice versa. The changes to call out and recall conditions in clauses 32 and 33 of the bill should also help to strengthen the capacity of our reserves, because reserves are a key component of our nation's readiness, showing that we are ready to respond to aggression, deters our enemies and lets us respond more effectively if needed. And I hope, therefore, that these measures will soon be followed by further steps to improve our readiness, including in the promised Defence Readiness Bill, which is needed sooner rather than later.

Madam chair, and while the measures in this Bill will undoubtedly improve our readiness, they are focussed on the strategic reserve only now, the Strategic Defence Review stated an ambition to increase the active reserves by 20% when funding allows, and we do not know how and when this will be achieved. The measures in the Bill are therefore a good start, but there is obviously more work to do. In conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, I can see the the stare from your good self.

I believe this bill will make a positive difference to the lives of those who serve in our Armed forces, and I will certainly be supporting it as it continues to

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make progress through the House. Thank you very much. Mr. Perry.

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Mr. Perry. Thank you, Madam Chair. There is much in this bill that deserves support. It renews the statutory basis for our armed statutory basis for our armed forces, extends the Armed forces covenant duty, introduces a defence housing service and reforms certain housing service and reforms certain aspects of the service justice system. These are genuine steps forward and we really do

15:56

James MacCleary MP (Lewes, Liberal Democrat)

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16:07

Mr Calvin Bailey MP (Leyton and Wanstead, Labour)

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16:22

Ben Obese-Jecty MP (Huntingdon, Conservative)

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I had the privilege to serve alongside and command soldiers from all over the Commonwealth alongside Australians and Canadians, South Australians and Canadians, South Africans and Jamaicans as a support weapons platoon commander. A quarter of my anti-tank platoon was quarter of my anti-tank platoon was Fijian, as you may expect from a fine rugby playing regiment like the Duke of Wellington's. Unbelievably competitive to get a Unbelievably competitive to get a spot on the wing. So I know well the courage and the sacrifice shown by our Commonwealth personnel, not by our Commonwealth personnel, not only today, but alongside me on operations in Afghanistan and Iraq and during operations across the globe long preceding that.

We owe these men and women the right to make a life in the country. They have risked theirs to defend. Over. Four years ago, in April 2022, the previous government implemented a visa fee waiver for those who served in the UK armed forces. That waived that waiver also applied to eligible veterans yet to regularise their immigration status. Having campaigned for this myself long before I became an MP, it was hugely welcome to see the playing field levelled somewhat for Commonwealth veterans. Whilst this was a welcome first step, I personally felt it wasn't enough.

We in this chamber often recognise the sacrifice and the challenges of those families left behind when service personnel deployed. Being a military spouse or child is not easy. This situation is made even harder if you're the family of a Commonwealth Service member, because whilst we waive the fees for serving personnel in 2022, we didn't extend the right to the immediate family and dependents of that service member, meaning many Commonwealth veterans are saddled with significant visa fees if they wish to stay in the UK as a family.

After leaving the armed forces from the 8th of April this year, when the cost increased once again, the base fee for applying for indefinite leave to remain is £3,226 per person. To put into context the speed of that increase when we waive fees for service members. Just four years ago it was £2,389 per person and near £1,000 increase. And consider that this is just ILR, not citizenship. In the US armed forces, a non US citizen can achieve full US citizenship upon discharge for the price of the admin fee, just a few dollars a service member, their spouse and two children now potentially face a cost of just shy of £10,000 for the right to live in the country they have risked their life to defend.

I defy anybody to tell me that that is fair. It isn't until the 12 year point that personnel become entitled to a resettlement grant of £15,047, but the purpose of the resettlement grant is precisely that, to give you a head start, be that a trade course or a deposit for a house, or the funds to set up an entrepreneurial new business, none of those options are available to you when you need to spend the majority of it on just attaining the right to live in the country.

So what on earth are we doing? Why are we fleecing those who have served this country, saddling them with a five figure burden? This is a campaign that the Royal British Legion and Poppyscotland lead the charge on, and a push for these changes consistently. They highlight that in delivering this manifesto pledge, the government would fulfil its obligations under the Armed Forces Covenant by removing these disadvantages and barriers to family life going into the 2024 general election, the conservative manifesto looked to correct this.

As part of our pledge to Veterans, we announced that a conservative government would extend the visa fees waiver introduced to cover Commonwealth personnel to include their direct dependents. The Labour manifesto two made that pledge, stating we will also scrap visa fees for non-UK veterans who have served for four or more years and their dependents. So where are we with that? I raised the question on a number of occasions. In November 2024, I asked the then veterans Minister what the timetable was for delivering that manifesto pledge.

I was told we are working on that. It is in the manifesto and it will come out in due course. In June 2025, during the Armed Forces Day debate, I asked the then armed forces Minister if he could provide an update on the work being done to waive visa fees for families and dependents of Commonwealth personnel, he told me we have a manifesto commitment to deliver that. The Defence Secretary has spoken to the Home Secretary about this and our officials are in dialogue about it.

I hope that the Minister for Veterans and People who looks after this area will be able to announce progress in due course. The hon. Member and I share a strong sense that there is a wrong to be righted here, and those people who serve our country for a good period of time should be able to settle here. I think progress will be made, but I recognise this interest in his interest in that happening. That was a year ago. On the 5th of January 2026, the new veterans Minister told me that the government is working closely with the Home Office to deliver this commitment, going on to say it is not possible at this stage to provide an implementation date.

In April, she informed me that this government is committed to waiving visa fees for non-UK veterans. In total, I've asked the government for an update on the progress of the implementation of their manifesto pledge seven times, and we are no closer to an implementation date after nearly two years than we were when this government came to power. I am not seeking to apportion individual blame here. Having spoken to Ministers individually and the two on the front bench today, I don't doubt that the defence frontbench wishes to implement this policy, but there is clearly something that is causing it to stall, be that the Home Office or the machinery of government.

But there is an opportunity here to drive this forward. We should bear in mind the Ministry of Defence doesn't even collate the information regarding the number of ILR applications submitted by family members of service personnel. It has literally no idea of the impact. The failure to deliver this policy is having two years with no timetable for implementation on the horizon gives me little confidence. This is a priority on Defence's to do list. I appreciate that the government is working flat out in months, but this can be measured in continental drift.

It simply does not appear to be a priority for the government. However, my greater fear is that rather than do the right thing today, that this government will churlishly and spitefully vote against the amendment because politics. Not one Labour MP signed this amendment, despite every single one being asked twice. The government has whipped its MPs not to support the amendment, just as it will whip its MPs to vote against it. A vote against this amendment is not just a vote against the Labour manifesto that each Labour MP stood on is a vote against our veterans.

It's a vote against those who have risked their lives to defend this great nation. It is a vote that tells Commonwealth personnel that this government does not have their back, that joining our armed forces will still see us treated as a second class citizen with limited options. Post-service for those Labour MPs with a military presence in their constituencies, they should ask themselves how will we how will they spin this to the service member who has to pay £10,000 to live here with their family, instead of putting down a deposit on a house or launching a business, they should ask themselves if for the sake of playing politics this evening, is it worth holding somebody else back? I'll give way.

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I thank my hon. And the honourable and gallant member for giving way. He is making a very powerful speech, the majority of powerful speech, the majority of which I agree with. However, does he recognise that the armed forces he recognise that the armed forces confident places a legal responsibility on all government departments to remove those departments to remove those barriers and impediments to service life, those barriers and impediments which I, as a service member, engage with the RBL and the Cobseo from about 2017 to try and address this, and failed to do so numerous times after the previous government, because of the nature that the Home Office, the nature and approach that the Home Office and its membership took to addressing these problems, and perhaps that is the problem that we have today, is not that the department that you were speaking to at the moment wants to address this problem, but that this is a wider cultural problem.

And would he join with the all party parliamentary group to make sure that we apply and enforce the Armed forces covenant in the way it's designed to achieve the outcomes

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that we both agree on? I thank the hon. Member. I do not disagree. I recognise the point not disagree. I recognise the point that he's making and I recognise his passion to to help deliver this. I am a member of the all party parliamentary group and I am happy to push on this in order to try and get this across the line, I would. get this across the line, I would. I would also say that I do recognise the politics of this as recognise the politics of this as well, and whilst I'm sure that his party may not welcome him for somewhat throwing the Home Office under the bus, it would appear in this instance.

I do recognise that there are complexities around the ability to deliver this. From a home office perspective. I know that it's something that our party on this side encountered when we were in government. I imagine that it's very much the same situation on that side of the House now, but I do still insist that this is a good amendment. It is in the right place within the Armed Forces Bill. I recognise the point that he's trying to make and trying to give the government some wiggle room to get out of voting for this this evening, but I am convinced that this should be voted on, and we should push this forward in order

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to make some pressure on the Home Office. I will once more. Thank the. Hon. Member for giving way. Just

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Hon. Member for giving way. Just to amplify what this means to our service people as they approach the service people as they approach the end of their time in service. If they are not a UK passport holder. And I know there is a slight conflation of issues here, what conflation of issues here, what this can mean is that our service people, if they are non-UK passport holder and the majority of those may be Americans and not Commonwealth personnel that they don't have access to, to work and to credit during the final six months of their service.

This has been an impediment that has been there for decades. It's something, as I said, I fought for through the Cobseo when I was in service, and it's something we are trying to close with now, and therefore that is why this is broader than the amendment that he has put.

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I thank the hon. Member for his intervention once again, and I agree it is a broader topic than just simply Commonwealth veterans and their families who are from those same Commonwealth countries. those same Commonwealth countries. There are a number of personnel who live here who will be UK personnel, but who have spouses, spouses and but who have spouses, spouses and children who may be from overseas and the same same rules apply to them. So I don't disagree. I think them.

So I don't disagree. I think we are very much on the same page on a number of issues here, and I think this is now just literally the technicality of politics that is potentially getting in the way. We are squeamish when it comes to discussing immigration. No party has yet demonstrated that they have the right answer. But on this specific element of the debate, it is very simple. No matter how high a bar we set for the right to live in this country, whether that be for key workers or high net worth individuals, those who have risked their life to defend the freedoms that we enjoy deserve to settle here with their families without penalty.

That should always be above that high bar. At the heart of our security are the men and women who serve and risk their lives for this country. That is in the Labour manifesto. Do the right thing today, and I would urge members on that side of the House to support new clause five.

16:33

Jayne Kirkham MP (Truro and Falmouth, Labour )

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16:45

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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don't expect to be given anything, particularly. They usually the. The particularly. They usually the. The greatest pragmatist going. And they don't expect that at all. But they do expect not to be messed around if it can be avoided. And a lot of what's in this bill, as is always what's in this bill, as is always the case now with armed forces bills, is trying to mitigate some of the disadvantages that they of the disadvantages that they necessarily have to put up with by virtue of the unique circumstances that they find themselves in.

Now, of course, 30 deals with the armed forces commissioner. It's just worthwhile remembering what this was all about. It was because there was pressure to have some sort of representation of serving people, and that was resisted by the government was, in my view, and the armed forces commissioner was a sort of a compromise. But it is there to recognise the fact that the men and women of our armed forces do not have trade union representation. That's the purpose of it. And whilst the Royal Fleet Notwithstanding the attempts made sub para for A and to C to cover off that ambiguity, that grey area.

I have to ask the Minister to. What about other organisations, civilian organisations that work very closely with armed forces and can deploy with armed forces such as the Navy, Army and Air Force Institute? An argument could be made for them to be covered as well. It'll be interesting to hear, perhaps, whether the Minister has any plans to do so, maybe not in this measure, but in the future, because that is really the logic of this particular extension of the role of the armed Forces Commissioner.

I thoroughly approve of a. Removal of the artificial barrier between the reserves and the regulars, and I speak as a as a reservist and somebody who perhaps in the past might have had a greater interest in this than I do now. Rick Haythornthwaite study. The study. This is made flesh by the. Some of the measures in this particular bill, in particular, zigzag careers and the ability to move from one part of defence to another and back again. And it is complete madness for people having to leave and go through all the rigmarole of filling out the forms that were mentioned by the hon.

Gentleman is no longer in his place, and go through the medical and all the rest of it. It makes no sense. It's hugely wasteful and it puts people off and it encourages them simply to leave. However, in the bill there is a clear distinction between commissioned and non commissioned, and I sometimes think we get too wrapped up in all of this. And simplicity is usually the best course of action. And it would be good to hear from the Minister why it is that he feels that there needs to be separate arrangements for officers, which, as I understand it, would not be included in the initial tranche of people going through this system, but will be dealt with at some future date if my reading of the bill is correct.

If I'm if it's not, then I'm sure he will tell me. In terms of recall for service, my only concern about this is certainly not a philosophical one. Not at all. But it is making service more onerous. And at a time when we want people, volunteers in our system to join the armed forces, either the regulars or the reserves, extending their recall liability from 6 to 18 years and from 55 to 65, might not necessarily be a particularly attractive proposition for many of them that don't necessarily want to commit to that kind of thing.

Notwithstanding the fact that many of our allies have something rather similar. And on the subject of our allies, it would be useful in encouraging a strategic reserve, which at the moment, I'm afraid, is more hypothetical than actual to emulate. Perhaps the Nordics, who insist that their reserve has come back for a day or two a year in order to have a kit muster, a bit of a briefing, a bit of bonding. And in that way they seem to hold people in in a way that we simply do not.

Still, in this country, we have the assumption that you'll do your time as a regular, and then you'll leave and you won't look back. I'm sure the Minister would agree that is something that needs to change, and that is a cultural issue rather than a management issue or a structural issue at the moment. And until we get into the mindset that service is, if not for life, then for a working life, ideally, I fear we're not going to be able to provide the government with the sort of person power that is necessary in order to sustain future operations in a pre war environment.

Now, many honourable, right hon. Members today have talked about the service justice parts of this bill, and in many ways, those are among the most important elements of it. It is worthwhile saying that certainly during my time as a Minister, there was difficulty populating court martial boards. The Minister gave a slightly different impression. If the position has improved, well, that's a good thing, but certainly broadening the base makes it much more administratively straightforward to ensure that people are available on the days concerned, and that the court martials don't have to be interrupted.

There's nothing worse for victims than finding that, for whatever reason, a court martial board, which they thought was going to be held on a particular day, can't be constituted. And to that to that point, I very much welcome, as I said, an intervention earlier, the extension of eligibility to OR-7 Staff Sergeant, Chief Petty Officer, which seems to me to make complete sense and I hope would encourage the sense of confidence that people will have in the system. In any event, I do have problems with the I think it's the Liberal Democrat Amendment 90, which sort of imply that civilian structures are better than than service.

That is just not the case, simply is not the case. The service justice system is much quicker and there's nothing worse for victims and have to hang on for months, potentially years, in order to have their day in court. Justice delayed is justice denied, which is why I think it's perfectly reasonable to have the court martial option for particularly victims. But in any event, a matter to be determined under the prosecutor's protocol, which seems to me to operate perfectly well at the moment.

And I would be very reluctant to see a change. Clause 3839 is a sort of hark back to 1688, and the Parliament's desire to control the size of the British army. Of course, in those days there really wasn't a navy to speak of, certainly not in the way we would think of it today. And I most certainly wasn't an Air Force. So having to split numbers down by service wasn't an issue then. It was simply the number of men you had under arms.

Whilst I understand the purpose of the changes that the Minister is proposing under clauses 38 and 39, that is to say, aggregating numbers and simply presenting that to Parliament. It does, of course, reduce the granularity of data available to Parliament, and I'm not clear that there will be much cost involved in providing us the data that we have at the moment, which is to be much more granular in the data on numbers, reservists, regulars, members of the three armed forces.

And I would want to preserve that, whilst at the same time understanding that what really matters overall are total, the total size of our armed forces, which we all want to ensure is brought up to spec. So, madam, Madam Chair, that's all I really have to say on the issue. I commend this bill. I think overall it does things that we would all want to see, and it is a tradition with bills of this sort. There is no great controversy between the two sides of the aisle, and I wish it well.

Yes.

16:54

Johanna Baxter MP (Paisley and Renfrewshire South, Labour)

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Johanna Baxter thank. >> Johanna Baxter thank. >> You, Madam Chair. May I begin by offering my deepest thoughts and prayers to the family, friends and prayers to the family, friends and colleagues of the British soldier who tragically died in Iraq on Sunday. Madam Chair. The world we live in today is more perilous, volatile and unpredictable than at any point in our living memory. We saw that last night when Russia fired more than 650 drones and 73 missiles into Ukraine, killing 13 people, injuring more than 100, including a little girl aged only 11.

In this fragmented world, a strong, modern, highly capable military is not a luxury. It is a necessity. If we are to secure Britain's future, National security must always come above all else. Which is why I strongly welcome the continuous, decisive steps this Labour government is taking to rebuild our defence. After it was hollowed out by the party opposite. That is why I support this Bill and the government amendments laid in it. Today, week after week, we are seeing this Labour government getting on with the job of investing in our defence.

Just yesterday, the government announced a vital new munitions deal supporting 700 jobs in Belfast. Last week, the government signed a joint missile programme with Poland and a new Swedish fighter jet deal to strengthen Ukraine and boost British jobs. We do this not simply because it is a security argument. Agreement deals, but because it is the moral duty of this government. It also creates highly skilled jobs right across the United Kingdom, including for the people of my constituency in Paisley and Renfrewshire South.

The substance of this bill begins the urgent work of undoing years of systemic damage. I want to focus my comments today on two areas where the legislation delivers the deepest, most vital changes that is in defence, housing and justice for victims of abuse. So firstly, I warmly welcome the Armed Forces Covenant, something the British Legion has been calling for for over a decade and is finally being delivered in full by this Labour government. In the words of the Royal British Legion itself, our Armed Forces Covenant will ensure that the needs of the Armed Forces community are considered when making decisions where further, they go on to say that they welcome our decision to fully implement it in law.

This matters immensely because it delivers directly on our manifesto commitments to our Armed services, because the brave men and women who dedicate their lives to defend our country deserve far more than just our gratitude. They deserve the peace of mind that whilst they are serving our country around the world, their families are safe and secure, high quality homes. Instead, the shocking legacy we inherited between April 2022 and December 2023, service family accommodation fell into disrepair. Over 20,000 heating failures were reported in military homes.

Nearly 7000 properties completely lost hot water and more than 1100 families were forced out of their homes entirely due to severe maintenance issues. Is it any wonder, then, that the previous government missed its military recruitment targets every single year they were in office? If you cannot guarantee a soldier that their child will not grow up in a house without a working heating system, how can you expect them to stay in the ranks? That is why I welcome this government's commitment to £9 billion investment in defence housing and the measures set out in this bill to to establish the Defence Housing Service and the generational renewal of military housing, which will see 9 in 10 military homes modernised or graded.

The Royal British Legion has rightly welcomed the Defence Housing Service, calling it crucial to ensuring that armed forces personnel and their families are provided with the high quality housing that they deserve. This strategy will directly benefit our forces, including those living in the 43 service accommodations in my Paisley and Renfrewshire South constituency, something that is no less than our personnel and their families deserve. Secondly, Madam Chair, I strongly welcome the protections for victims of sexual harm and domestic abuse contained within the bill.

Every single victim of sexual harm deserves justice. Yet for too long, the experiences of too many victims have been ignored. And this bill changes that. By introducing a strict legal duty on commanding officers to report serious offences to civilian authorities and the service police, we are ensuring that there can be no scope for anyone to look the other way. We are ensuring that nobody can say, I did not know when those heinous crimes have been committed. This bill will give the service police increased powers for investigations, the service courts, more powers to deal with perpetrators and improve the experience of victims.

Furthermore, by bringing our system in line with the civilian sector, introducing service, domestic abuse protection orders, service stalking, protection orders, strengthening sexual harm prevention orders and sexual risk orders. We are ensuring that we protect victims and target predatory behaviour head on and ensure that survivors get the unwavering support and justice that they deserve. Madam chair, this Bill proves that this Labour Government is cleaning up the legacy of neglect left by the party opposite. We are getting on with the task of building a military fit

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for the future and restoring dignity to our armed forces, and I commend it to the. Josh Babarinde. Thank you.

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Thank you. Madam Chair. I speak in support of amendment 88, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell, and that amendment amendment Ewell, and that amendment amendment would require the Secretary of State to review how former service personnel are communicated with

17:00

Josh Babarinde MP (Eastbourne, Liberal Democrat)

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personnel are communicated with about their pension entitlements, and I support that wholeheartedly, and I want to use my remarks in relation to this amendment as an opportunity to raise again in this chamber an injustice that goes far deeper than just communication, but to the heart of what this country owes its veterans. And I want to share with the House for the sixth or seventh time now, the story of legendary Eastbourne Ian Pauline Col Pauline served as a staff sergeant and served this country with distinction during the conflict in Aden in the 60s, she suffered solar skin damage resulting in cancer and post-traumatic stress disorder.

As a direct result of her service and after years of tribunals, the government recognised her sacrifice and awarded her military compensation in the form of a war disablement pension. Now, before receiving that compensation, Pauline had been in receipt of £76.96 a week in Pension Credit. After receiving that compensation, her Pension Credit collapsed to just £9.23 a week. And that is because military compensation is considered as income for the purposes of calculating Pension Credit, even though it is the case that compensation awarded in a civil context is disregarded from such calculations and indeed, military compensation is disregarded from Universal Credit calculations.

But Pension Credit it is not. And so in this case, the government gave with one hand and took with another, and as a result, Pauline was forced to seek lower cost accommodation and moved out of her Eastbourne home and to somewhere else in the County of Sussex in order to sustain herself on that new income. I raised this with the Pensions Minister. Pauline came with me to the DWP. I have raised this in this chamber at Prime Minister's Questions, and Pauline sat in the gallery during the course of this, and sadly she passed away a few.

A few months after having to move in November 2025, never having seen this issue corrected. And so I've pledged to continue this fight around pension, communications and pensions entitlement in her honour. Together with her sons Simon and Les Haffenden, now, the Royal British Legion has been very clear that the current state of affairs is, in its view, a violation of the Armed Forces Covenant. Now, when I raised this injustice with the government via the DWP, they said that the government has no plans to change this policy.

When I asked a w PQ on this matter around what it would cost to exempt military compensation from Pension Credit entitlements, the answer was no. Formal assessment has been made. So the government says it cannot afford to fix this, but it has not undertaken to find out what fixing it would even cost. The government cannot hide behind affordability when it has never looked at the price tag. Now the government knows that it can act differently because it has.

In relation to the Atherton Review on LGBT veterans, where the Minister confirmed that compensation payments would be exempt from tax and would not affect benefits. And that is right. So the government has accepted the principle. It just was not applied to Pauline or thousands of veterans like her. It must be applied and it must be communicated to all of them. And so I conclude by saying and urging, indeed, the Minister to begin correcting this injustice by undertaking a financial assessment of this change and communicating that to veterans in receipt of the war Disablement pension.

And I urge him to meet with me and with Pauline's sons, Simon and Les Haffenden, who are continuing the campaign to discuss provisions to correct this injustice before Report stage occurs so that we can ensure that no veteran ever again is penalised for serving our

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country. Because. Thank you, Madam Chair. It's been a pleasure to serve on the Select Committee set up to scrutinise this important legislation, which members will legislation, which members will know renews our mandate for a standing army, as well as delivering important strides on the delivering important strides on the covenant service, housing and service justice. The thrust of my speech today will be to speak speech today will be to speak against new clause two, which I think was an attempt by the opposition to play a bit of a political game over the timing of the crucial defence investment plan.

Before that, May I first pay, pay,

17:06

Luke Akehurst MP (North Durham, Labour)

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pay tribute to the armed forces community across my North Durham constituency. As I mentioned in my

17:06

Josh Babarinde MP (Eastbourne, Liberal Democrat)

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constituency. As I mentioned in my speech on the Second Reading of this bill, North Durham is home to a large number of veterans and

17:06

Luke Akehurst MP (North Durham, Labour)

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a large number of veterans and families of current serving personnel. As their Member of Parliament. I want to use my voice to stand up for those people in our community who are serving or have served our country, which is why I so keen to play a role in the so keen to play a role in the passage of this bill. The Select Committee also allowed me to highlight the work of the Combined Cadet Force at Park View School in Chester le Street. I welcome the provisions of the bill to better integrate cadets into our armed forces by transforming the Reserve Forces and Cadets Association, Reserve Reserve Forces and Cadets Association into a non-departmental public body moving to nuclear clause two.

I'd like to think there's no one. With the possible exception of my hon. Friends, the Ministers at MoD, who wants the Defence Investment plan known as the dip, to be tabled more than I do. As I said in the defence estimates debate held in this place on the 4th of March, to my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence Readiness and Industry, my message to the Minister is to take back into the Whitehall system that supports, on both sides of this House for seeing the Defence Investment Plan sooner rather than later.

We can't afford more delay because every month we delay. Now could be a month in just a few years time that our troops don't have the right kit in their hands. In the event of a war with a dangerous opponent. As as a North East MP, I am also aware of the strong industrial case for providing certainty in the footprint of our defence spending, so that we can drive investment towards communities like the one I represent, where many of my constituents are proud to travel to work, making munitions for the British armed forces and our gallant allies in Ukraine, at Bay Systems in Washington, or making essential components for armoured vehicle programmes such as the turrets for challenger three at Pearson Engineering in Newcastle.

And my constituents also hope that future MoD contracts will lead to the north east of England becoming a major centre for the space industry. But we need to get this right. We can only get. We only have one shot at dealing with the equipment implications of the SDR. We do not have an infinite pot of money. In fact, all of us know that the state of the public finances that this government inherited in 2024 means that the pot of money we have for many pressing priorities, including defence, is decidedly and sadly finite.

So we must make the right decisions on where to allocate resources. As I think I've now said three times to the House, the political commitment of this Labour government to finding the funding for defence equipment and procurement should not be doubted, given the evidence that the early decision to cut the overseas development Budget by half in order to increase defence spending, this was something extremely painful and politically contentious, given the aid Budget is something close to the hearts of many on this side of the House.

But it was the right thing for the Labour government to do, and represents a historic commitment to the largest increase in defence spending since the end of the Cold War. Given this, no one should be in any doubt of the preparedness of this government to make the tough political decisions to to ensure we properly fund the defence of the nation. Indeed, I am hopeful that the publication of the dip will actually come sooner than the plan that new clause two was trying to bounce the government into.

The Defence Secretary confirmed yesterday that in this House that the PM is determined to publish the dip before the NATO summit, which starts on July the 7th. The new clause two would leave this plan until the end of the year, because that's when this bill will complete its passage. The Conservatives lost the political and moral right to dictate dictate timetables on how we best prepare for conflict after the British people rejected them from office. Following over a decade of tragic underfunding of our armed forces.

Indeed, in their very first year of government, the party opposite cut defence spending by £2 billion. In stark contrast to this government, which is spending over 11 billion more on defence now than in the last year of the previous government. Rather than tacking a timetable onto this bill, a bill which will play a hugely important role in improving how the state delivers for our armed forces community, I will be supporting the government in publishing a well thought out dip that isn't rushed, but is published as soon as possible, so we can start directing investment towards the industries that will play a key role in defending our nation in the coming years.

17:10

Sarah Bool MP (South Northamptonshire, Conservative)

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Sarah Bool thank you, Madam Chair. And firstly, I'd just like to start by saying it was a pleasure to serve on the Bill committee, and I want to thank the clerks and all of those who made it clerks and all of those who made it run so smoothly. Now, today, I'm just going to focus on one particular area, and I quote, I certainly think it is bizarre that there is not an English commissioner that is 85% of veteran population, while the other 15% have three commissioners to represent them.

I would certainly support that. Now, those are not my words, but those of Lieutenant Commander retired Susan Hamilton, the Veterans Commissioner for Scotland, in response to a question from the armed Forces Minister in the Bill Committee earlier this year as to whether there should be a Veterans Commissioner for England, a view shared by all three of the commissioners for Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland together is that the circa 1.4 million veterans who live in the UK in England lack their own veterans commissioner, but they believe it is vital that we have parity and consistency across the nations and an independent statutory advocate for veterans in England.

So today I raise once more the call for a National Veterans Commissioner for

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England via new clause three. Which GBE. At this. Point, of course I will give way.

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Point, of course I will give way. I do thank you. Forgive me and I apologise for interrupting the flow. The point about consistency across The point about consistency across all the UK is really, really important, and I do support the creation of that veterans Minister for England. But in Scotland the for England. But in Scotland the role is particularly important because our veterans Minister in the government is not a veteran himself. He is a career politician. I think he moved from being working for the party to working for an MSP.

So so that that is a difference, a really important role in Scotland to bridge that gap. But does she join me in encouraging SNP government to create a veterans Minister who is himself or herself a veteran?

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Sarah Bool I thank the hon. Member for his intervention and of course, all experience of military life is very valuable. I would say life is very valuable. I would say without someone, with someone without military experience, I still think there is something that can be brought to the table for can be brought to the table for those who don't have that, but I do, I do, I do take the point that he's noted. I'm sure that they would noted. I'm sure that they would have heard that, and that could be put on the record.

Now, taking a step back, the Royal British Legion launched the campaign to create the role of veterans commissioner in England back in 2023, the last conservative government accepted that request, and in 2024, the office for Veterans Affairs began recruiting for the position. However, the 2024 general election was called shortly afterwards and all progress was ceased. Now, in the Bill committee, the responses request was to say, well, look, we have an armed forces commissioner now, and alongside this means this role is not required.

But firstly, we do welcome Commodore Polly Perkins CBE to be the first holder of the role of the Armed Forces Commissioner, and I do wish her well in this role. However, this particular role has been created to benefit serving personnel and their families. It would investigate general welfare matters in the armed Forces, abolishing the office of the Service Complaints Ombudsman, and transferring its functions and responsibility to the newly established Commissioner so veterans would only fall under the Armed Forces Commissioner. Where a veterans complaint relates to their time in service and when they were subject to service law.

There are, however, time limits for submitting a complaint and therefore only veterans who have recently left the armed forces will generally fall within those provisions. Now, in terms of valour, we recognise the government's £50 million funding for valour, the national programme designed to increase veterans access to relevant charity services and support across the UK. However, if valour was the answer to all veterans issues, then why is the position of the veterans? Commissioners remained for Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales? There is still fundamental value in forming this Commissioner for England to.

It shouldn't be a question of either or, but both. Now what would the Veterans Commissioner do? Well, it would serve as an independent advocate and voice for veterans and families in England. It would signpost veterans and their families to relevant charities and services based on their individual needs. It would produce regular policy recommendations based on unmet need. It would work closely with government agencies to develop and refine policies and services, and it would promote the community, leveraging their skills and highly highlighting what they offer to society.

In addition, this role would actually be able to assist with the Armed Forces Covenant Extension. Now, in terms of the Armed Forces Covenant, one of the most critiqued aspects of that is that it is currently poorly signposted, inconsistently enforced, and compliance significantly varies from region to region. And speaking to service personnel, the issue is, is that many are really not aware of what it offers, and in reality, they don't feel the genuine value from it. The enforcement is therefore an absolutely key issue, and indeed, that very point was made last year in the House of Commons Defence Committee in their report, which stated it wasn't an issue about how it was legislated or the nature of services provided, but how it was enforced and how it was provided.

Now, given that the government does seem content to expand the role of extent of the covenant, we should welcome the role of veterans Commissioner because it would play a crucial role in accountability, monitoring the implementation and the impact of that extended covenant duty. Equally, the commissioner could also play an important role in implementing the veterans strategy, with its three core aims to celebrate, contribute and support. And it can also play a really important role in coordinating responses of the Veterans Advisory and Pensions Committee across England to provide local outreach and independent coordination.

The Veterans Advisory and Pension Committees are an underutilised resource, and coordination of these by the Veterans Commissioner could really support efforts to enhance their efficacy. The Commissioner could use this network through regular reporting to identify trends and evidence presenting these findings. It is the Royal British Legion's recommendation that the UK government should introduce a Veterans Commissioner for England, ensuring that veterans and their families know who to turn to for advocacy and to campaign and champion their needs at the heart of government.

I would strongly urge the government to listen. Thank you.

17:17

Rachel Taylor MP (North Warwickshire and Bedworth, Labour)

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Rachel Taylor thank you very >> Rachel Taylor thank you very much, Madam Chair. >> It was also an honour to serve on the Armed Forces Bill, Select on the Armed Forces Bill, Select Committee and help deliver on our General Election promise to extend General Election promise to extend the Armed Forces Covenant to every area of government to better support Armed forces, personnel and veterans, and I was delighted to be joined by so many veterans with experience on that committee, particularly the hon.

Member for Rayleigh and Wickford, the Member for Halesowen North Devon, Selly Oak and South Ribble, and also Solihull West and Shirley. If I'm correct, I don't want to upset my, my the hon. Member, who is almost a neighbour, their their input into that committee was extremely valuable, and I feel that the work we were able to do across party with with good temper was was extremely valuable. And, and I really sort of think that the time spent was, was worthwhile.

It was also extremely helpful as the the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford has already mentioned to visit the Veterans and Armed Forces housing and also to meet with the members of the the the Armed Forces Justice Scheme. And that was extremely helpful. And we were able to ask them a number of questions. And whilst our recollections of some of those conversations may slightly differ, it was still extremely useful to see how that system worked, in contrast to how our non-military justice system works.

Now, I welcome this government's commitment to placing a legal duty on public services to consider the circumstances of armed forces personnel and their families. My constituents want to see veterans supported and those who serve able to do so with dignity and respect. We were elected to renew our armed forces, and this bill delivers on that promise. It was encouraging to hear evidence from representatives of armed forces charities, the Service Families Federation, officials from the Service Justice System and personnel from across the Armed Forces and the Ministry of Defence.

They all recognise the importance of the changes we are making to turn the tide. After years of underinvestment by the party opposite. Our armed forces are a source of national pride, and I want younger generations to see the armed forces as a future for themselves and an opportunity to do more for their country, contributing to the security of our nation to make this a reality, armed forces personnel and their families need our full support and respect as they make daily sacrifices in their service to our country.

That's why I am pleased that after years of military families forced to deal with the lowest level of satisfaction with service family accommodation on record, we have bought 36,000 family homes back into public ownership, with the savings being reinvested into fixing and

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improving forces. Housing. The hon. Lady. Yes, I'll. Give Pam Cox. I thank her for

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Give Pam Cox. I thank her for giving way. In my constituency. Colchester we have a thousand homes, nearly a thousand homes that have nearly a thousand homes that have been brought back into public ownership. With the creation of the ownership. With the creation of the Defence Housing Service. Would she agree with me that new clause 13, which addresses the question of which addresses the question of single living accommodation, threatens to undermine that new defence housing service before it's really got off the ground, and that although single living accommodation needs attention, that that attention should be given

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within the armed forces umbrella. I thank the my hon. Friend for

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I thank the my hon. Friend for her valuable intervention and her experience with so many military experience with so many military families living in her constituency. I, I agree with with her that new I, I agree with with her that new clause 13 focuses on single living accommodation, which is often of a accommodation, which is often of a relatively temporary nature, whereas our focus on the catastrophic situation within our family homes up and down the country, which we both saw on the on the visit down, down south, service families deserve high quality housing that meets military operational requirements, while providing them with the comfort they need to support their family.

This bill's establishment of the Defence Housing Service will go a long way to meeting these needs. A generational renewal of over 40,000 military homes modernised and upgraded, together with a historic programme of house building with the potential for over 100,000 new homes on surplus defence land for civilian and military families, with serving personnel and veterans first. The most significant plan in 50 years. A stark contrast to the scandal of the botched Tory privatisation that cost us billions and let military families down and left the country worse off.

It was a real eye opener to see first hand the standard of accommodation military families have been putting up with, and the work needed to make those properties fit for our heroes and their families. I'm immensely proud that in this bill, we stand by our pledge to halve violence against women and girls. The service justice system is being modernised, so it can provide better victim support and ensure that the victims of the most serious offences have access to protection orders. Criminal behaviour does not belong in our armed forces.

The UK has a strong record for cultivating the highest values and standards in some of the toughest conditions. We are bringing change to service justice, creating a victim centred approach that will support personnel that are the victims of unacceptable sexual assault, domestic abuse, stalking and harassment in a period of significant global instability. Our commitment to the security of our country requires us to invest in our armed forces so that we can combat any challenges we as a country face.

Part of that has to be about expanding our reserve forces. Individuals, including members of this House, use their free time to make up an integral part of our armed forces, and I am incredibly proud when constituents of mine tell me that they are part of our reserves. Bedworth, in my constituency, hosts the largest and one of the most famous Armistice Day parades in Britain, held always on the 11th day of the 11th month. We truly are a town that never forgets, and I want to pay tribute to all the veterans and service personnel in my constituency of North Warwickshire and Bedworth and all of those who work in the defence industry.

Supply chains. My constituents are proud that this Labour Government is backing our armed forces and improving the lives of our country's bravest, while putting our nation's security first. I will continue to do what I can to support military families and veterans from my constituency, and I recommend this bill to the House. But before I wind up, I also want to put on record at the start of Pride Month how proud I am to have seen the LGBT financial recognition scheme implemented with a £75 million investment and the the Memorial and opened letter dedicated and unveiled by the King in October 2025.

I would recommend everyone in this House and across the country to make a visit to the National Memorial Arboretum to see that it is a very powerful reminder of the absolute injustice that was done to hard working service personnel who were serving their country first to the best of their ability.

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Ian Roome thank you, Madam Chair. It was a pleasure to be a member of It was a pleasure to be a member of the Armed Forces Bill Committee, and it is also an honour to be able to speak on the Armed Forces Bill to speak on the Armed Forces Bill for a second time. To this government's credit, this bill responds to a number of key responds to a number of key challenges our armed forces face in challenges our armed forces face in the 2020s.

However, today I want to argue the case for new clause 13, something the Liberal Democrats pushed for in committee and a cause very close to my heart, the need to give every member of our armed

17:26

Ian Roome MP (North Devon, Liberal Democrat)

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forces a safe, decent home, whatever their family circumstances. whatever their family circumstances. Some who serve living single accommodation for decades, you know, for their whole career. Not for their whole career. Not everyone chooses to be in a relationship, and many also go and relationship, and many also go and live in single living accommodation away from their wives and go home at the weekend. So sometimes it's at the weekend. So sometimes it's there for the whole career, not just to a stepping stone until they find a partner and then move on into into quarters.

The Secretary of State has promised the biggest renewal of armed forces housing in more than 50 years. To echo his words, the last British forces personnel deserve is a decent home. Last year, the government rightly agreed with our party that armed forces housing should meet the decent homes standards, and it was encouraging to see that commitment make its way into the Renters Rights Act 2025. However, there are two types of armed forces housing service, family accommodation and single living accommodation.

In 2021, the Public Accounts Committee estimated that the latter may support as many as 8000 people. More than half of our armed forces personnel at that time. More than a third of the armed forces personnel were to believed to be living in the poorest grade of service housing and 3% in accommodation so poor that they were exempt from paying rent. The Renters Rights Act misses out single living accommodation in section 101. Despite many new recruits being young and too much of the defence housing estate being in a shocking state of repair, this amendment is our opportunity to begin to fix that.

I speak from personal experience, having lived in single living accommodation myself as a still wet, behind the ears young airman Porter to Braunton block at then RAF Chivenor in North Devon in the late 1980s. Now RMB Chivenor a Royal Marine base. The way, the nicest way I can describe it is to say it was basic, but before family life happened, it was home to me and my mates. For at least two years I was at Chivenor. My room on the base is still there and whichever Royal Marine has it today has every right to be housed somewhere without mould or damp.

While they serve king and country. By the time the next Armed Forces Bill comes before this House in 2031, we must ensure that the shameful findings of the last Service Accommodation report are a thing of the past, something I believe this government is trying and attempting to fix. As we saw saw on our service on the committee visits. As such, the Armed Forces Bill should specify that wherever the phrase service family accommodation appears relating to the standard of forces housing, this should be amended to also cover single living accommodation and any Ministry of Defence building being used for that purpose.

Why should those who are single be treated any different from those who are serving, who choose to be with their families? The Armed Forces Bill will have united support from parties across this House and so should New Clause 13. I urge the government to be bold, accept no half measures and deliver decent housing for every member of our armed forces. Thank you.

17:30

Dr Scott Arthur MP (Edinburgh South West, Labour)

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I call Doctor Scott Arthur. you'll be pleased to hear I'm going to be relatively short. So I am proud to welcome this Armed Forces proud to welcome this Armed Forces Bill. It represents a vital step towards renewing our contract with those who keep us safe. As an MP those who keep us safe. As an MP with Redford Barracks, Dreghorn Barracks and also RAF Kirknewton in my constituency, this bill is of immense pride to me, but it is also one of urgent necessity.

So I'll focus on clauses, new clauses three and five. But I want to start by welcoming the increased investment which underpins the renewal, that renewal. Our new £9 billion defence housing strategy. This will be the biggest renewal of military accommodation in half a century. And across Edinburgh South West, our forces families will benefit and I see this already in Edinburgh South West. For too long, the state of service accommodation, as we have heard already, has been a source of deep frustration.

But now in my constituency it is slowly becoming a source of envy as people watch these homes being upgraded. I am happy that this landmark strategy will significantly improve the state of service housing up and down the country, and I have to thank the Minister, the Member for Birmingham and Selly Oak, for stepping in in my constituency, because the MoD was about to sell surplus homes on the private market, on the on the open market, but instead he stepped in to ensure that they were transferred to the council.

And those ex-army homes are now council homes, which I think is a fantastic outcome here on New clause three. On veteran support, the Royal British Legion has rightly highlighted the outstanding vacancy for Veterans Commissioner for England, which was advertised. Let's face it, just a few days before the last general election. And that is something that we do. We do have to question in Scotland. We have long seen the clear impact of our veterans Commissioner and I spoke about that earlier, and it is only right that England has one two.

So I urge the government to think about this seriously. But there are two points. There's two points that have to be considered. We do have to look at the existing veterans, commissioners understand what is working and what is not, build on best practice. And of course, Operation Valour is getting rolled out at pace and scale. So we have to get the interaction between right, between veterans commissioner and valour. Absolutely right. So I think it is right that we we want action in this area, but we also have to show a little caution as well to make sure we get it right first time and not new clause five.

It really is an opportunity to tear down some of the unfair barriers facing non-UK Armed forces personnel. I welcome the intent behind the new clause, which seeks to amend the Immigration Act 2014 to waive the fee for indefinite leave to remain applications from spouses and children of current or former service personnel. As a constituent, a constituent recently raised the painful administrative hurdles affecting Commonwealth soldiers, veterans and their families who now call Edinburgh, Scotland and the wider UK their home.

I met I met the All Nations Christian Fellowship Church in in Oxgangs on Oxgangs Avenue. They had an open evening. It was fantastic and it culminated in some excellent food. But he told me that while he told me that Edinburgh was his home now, and he told me about how proud he was to serve in three rifles, I have to say, I have never met anybody who is prouder to serve in our armed forces, despite the fact that he was not born in the UK.

And he also told me about how he lost some of his friends in Afghanistan. He was a amazing man, I have to say, in all sorts of ways, but I was ashamed to hear that. He is expected to pay visa fees for his family to settle in the UK. He has left the forces now. He is a veteran, a proud veteran, but he is on modest income. The fees that he faces are just incredible for him and he was not just advocating for himself, he was not a selfish person.

He was advocating for others in his network as well. So I think it is right that the government takes this seriously. If you are prepared to lay down your life for this country, your family should not face financial penalty to live in it. We must give these brave individuals a fair and dignified pathway to settlement. Now, I accept that this is best led by the Home Office, but I do think that the amendment which has been brought forward by the Member for Hunter, what this debate has achieved is, I think, right across this House, certainly the people that are in this room, we want to see action on this, and I do not think anybody opposes this.

And so I think we have to remember this. And we do have to demand action. So. So I am hopeful that this bill will finally deliver the settlement that our military deserves. The promise is there. We must ensure that our delivery on housing, recruitment and fairness matches it. And I want to make three points. The journey of this bill will not be completed today. There is going to be other opportunities to amend it. So I hope that if it is the right thing on new clause three and five, we will find time to make space for the intent behind them.

And on devolution there is no bigger supporter of devolution than me, but there is nothing worse on being than being on the wrong side of the border when it comes to access and services. Sometimes for our military families that move between England and Scotland, they really feel the difference in childcare. And depending on the age of your child, that has different impacts, or if your spouse happens to be a teacher, moving from Scotland to England and vice versa can be a huge hurdle. So as we think about amending this bill to make lives better for our armed armed forces personnel, I think please think carefully about families who are moving between the between England and the devolved nations, and make sure that we have a safety net for them to make sure that they are never disadvantaged for serving our country.

The last thing, the last time I mentioned RAF Kirknewton, I did make the point that it is the home of number 661 Volunteer Gliding Squadron, the net zero fleet of the Air Force, if you like, and they fly a fleet of four Grob Viking T1 gliders and they provide excellent experience to the Royal Air Force Air Cadets. But what I did not say is that it is also the home to a meticulously recreated World War One, Sopwith one and a half Strutter aircraft.

And this has been. This has been built by the Aviation Preservation Society of Scotland. And why I mentioned this is that the big military installations in my constituency, Redford and Dreghorn Barracks and also the air base, they have fences around them, but that does not mean they are not well connected with the community. So when I'm out in Colinton, I meet our armed Forces service and armed forces people at the bus stop. I meet them at the school gates sometimes, and I meet them in Colinton means Tesco.

I do worry about the diet of some of our younger servicemen, but that's the debate, perhaps for another day, and I. Colinton Primary School. When. When the. When. When the school was closed due to snow a few years ago, it was the army that came down and cleared it. Perhaps they were desperate to get their kids back to school. We've all been there, and when we need a barbecue at that school. A couple of years ago, it was the army who provided it, and they brought with them the rarest piece of military equipment I've ever seen deployed chair.

It was the army's bouncy castle. They brought fully camouflaged. I have no idea what the Army does with the rest of the year. Perhaps. Perhaps there is a written question in that subject. But this. This is incredibly important because our in my constituency, particularly around Colinton, the armed forces are fully integrated and this is something I cherish in local people cherish. And I really do hope that this bill, the covenant, are about creating and maintaining a sustaining that kind of culture.

And all of us have a duty to maintain that here. Thank you. Chair. Chair.

17:38

Kevin Bonavia MP (Stevenage, Labour)

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17:47

Alison Taylor MP (Paisley and Renfrewshire North, Labour)

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contribute to this important debate today and in my constituency of Paisley and Renfrewshire North, there are quite a number of serving and retired service members. We have many families that settled in the constituency to work in the war effort during the Second World War, in a in a in its constituency with strong connections to the armed forces and the veteran's charity. Erskine was founded there in the former Erskine Veterans Hospital. The measures in this bill will be welcomed across Great Britain.

I was fortunate enough to join local service personnel to learn about the Armed Forces Covenant shortly after my election, and I've been greatly encouraged to learn of local employers signing it and embracing it. It is well past time that the government did the same, and I know, too, that the provisions on service family housing will be broadly welcomed across the country, and I look forward to seeing the benefits of concerted efforts to improve housing for families in my constituency.

Housing in our communities is so important not just to providing a place to sleep, but also for access to the local community, schools, health services and so on. Our communities are open and generous, and they appreciate the sacrifices made by service personnel. I. I look forward to welcoming more retired and serving service personnel to to Paisley and Renfrewshire North. Thank you.

17:48

Anna Gelderd MP (South East Cornwall, Labour)

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Anna Gelderd Madam Chair, and it's a privilege to speak in support of this bill and the government amendments laid today, government amendments laid today, which improves housing, strengthens protection for serving personnel and their families, and ensures our Armed forces are prepared for the Armed forces are prepared for the challenges of an increasingly uncertain world. While much of this debate rightly focuses on debate rightly focuses on structures, powers, processes, the strength of our armed forces ultimately comes down to the brave men and women who choose to serve their country and their families who support them to do so.

In South East Cornwall, we see that every day through the close connection between our community and the Royal Navy. At HMS Raleigh, people arrive from across the UK to begin their service careers, and many leave with lifelong friendships, skills and a deep sense of purpose. Just recently, the recruits have pooled 25/37 successfully passed out from their initial naval training, and they know the whole House will join me in congratulating them on this significant achievement and wishing them every success as they begin their careers in service to our country.

One recruit marked this occasion in particular memorable fashion by proposing to his now fiance, so I hope the Minister will join me in congratulating Cameron and Lexie on their engagement and

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wishing them a long and happy future together. Here, here, here, here, here. It is a reminder. That places like HMS Raleigh are

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That places like HMS Raleigh are not simply training establishments. For many, they are where futures are built and the values of service, are built and the values of service, commitment and community are lived every day. As you consider this bill, we must remember that behind bill, we must remember that behind every policy and every provision are the people who make our armed forces great. That is why I particularly welcome government particularly welcome government amendment to clause three on housing and the creation of a new defence housing service.

As I think about that new young couple and their home that they hope to build together, we cannot hope to strengthen recruitment, retention and national readiness if service personnel and their families are accommodation.

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On that point. I will. I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. My constituency neighbour knows well that, like her, I've got many serving folks in my patch. There's a particular issue we've got in Plymouth where South West Water, Plymouth where South West Water, which I know she deals with as well. When they have outages and you are When they have outages and you are in service accommodation, you don't get access immediately to the same compensation pay that your very neighbours get access to because neighbours get access to because they're not in service accommodation, they're paying direct South west water, whereas in service accommodation you're going through a kind of third party service.

You don't get it immediately. And the Minister knows this well because he helped me out with some casework around this last year. But does my hon. Friend agree that this is something we need to look at within this bill to make sure that people get compensation just as quickly as their neighbours, and aren't disadvantaged by being in the forces.

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I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, and I agree that we must work together on issues such as that which are incredibly important, and we cannot hope to strengthen our recruitment, retention and national readiness if retention and national readiness if this accommodation is unacceptable and the Bill delivers landmark programme of investment to build, programme of investment to build, renew and repair military homes and forces families first. The Tory privatisation of military housing privatisation of military housing cost taxpayers billions, while leaving many service personnel and their families in accommodation that simply was not good enough.

I also welcome amendments to clause two in the expansion of the Armed Forces Covenant, which will extend to recognise the service life prevents unique challenges, whether through frequent relocations, disruption to education, difficulties, accessing healthcare or impact on family life, ensuring that public bodies properly recognise those challenges is an important step towards delivering the support that serving personnel, veterans and their families truly deserve. This matters to our armed forces, and we know that military morale fell too deeply concerning levels under the previous government.

That should concern every member of this House. I represent a constituency with proud military communities, and I know the challenges faced by service families and children with special educational needs and disabilities. Frequent moves can disrupt education and the support networks at the very moment the stability is most needed. So I welcome wholeheartedly the work being undertaken in partnership with the Department of Education, to improve continuity and support. I am also particularly pleased to welcome amendments to broad seven that strengthen protections against sexual violence, domestic abuse, stalking and harassment.

Violence against women and girls remain one of the greatest challenges facing our society. No one should ever face abuse, intimidation or violence, and certainly not those who serve our community in this way here. In a few weeks time, I will have the privilege of attending another passing out parade at HMS Raleigh. I know the Minister has previously joined me to meet veterans in Torpoint, a town that is home to one of the country's highest veteran populations. So I hope you accept my invitation to revisit South East Cornwall at the earliest opportunity to meet the recruits who represent the bright future of our armed forces, and to discuss the vital role that South East Cornwall continues to play in supporting our nation's defence.

This bill recognises that strong armed forces depend on strong people, strong families and strong communities like mine, and I'm proud to support it. I look forward to seeing the difference these measures and these amendments will

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make for those who serve here. Alex Baker thank you, Madam Chair. On the Second Reading of Chair. On the Second Reading of this bill, I spoke about the Armed Forces Covenant and the importance of translating our gratitude of translating our gratitude towards those who serve into practical support today. Madam chair, I'm proud to speak in chair, I'm proud to speak in support of the government's housing measures in clause three of this

17:54

Alex Baker MP (Aldershot, Labour)

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bill and the amendments associated with them. They go to perhaps the most tangible test of whether we are keeping our side of the bargain with our armed forces community. The homes in which they live. As the Member for Aldershot, the home of the British Army, I represent around one one 1800 service family homes, one of the largest concentrations anywhere in the United Kingdom. That means the success of these reforms will be felt directly by thousands of military families in my constituency.

For those families, the quality of their accommodation is not an abstract policy issue. It affects family life, children's wellbeing, retention, morale and operational effectiveness. For years, too many service family have lived in homes that fall short of the standards they deserve. I hear from families facing persistent maintenance problems, from personnel frustrated by repair systems that feel difficult to navigate, and from parents who simply want a safe, decent home in which to raise their children. This is why I welcome the action this government is taking on defence housing.

I welcome the £9 billion. I welcome nine out of ten houses being refurbished, and I welcome the housing officers that will be on the streets of Aldershot. As a result of this government. The creation of a new defence housing service, alongside the wider Defence Housing Strategy, represents a serious and necessary step forward. The commitment to long term investment, clearer accountability and better standards will matter enormously to constituencies like mine. But welcoming these measures does not mean lowering our ambitions. It means the opposite if we are going to rebuild trust with service families, these reforms must be felt in everyday life.

In repairs completed quickly, damp and mould dealt with properly, and a system that listens, responds and follows through. I gently urge Ministers to ensure that the Defence Housing Service has the authority, funding and accountability it needs to succeed, with service families placed at the heart of its design and delivery. But defence housing is not just about families. Single living accommodation matters too. For many serving personnel, particularly younger personnel or those living away from their families, single living accommodation is their home.

It shapes their daily lives, their morale, their wellbeing and sense of where they are valued by the country, whether they are valued by the country they serve. That is why I welcome government's review of single living accommodation and the overseas estate. It is. It is right that we look carefully at the standard of accommodation being provided to those who serve, whether they live with their family or in single accommodation. As the Strategic Defence Review recognised, accommodation is not simply simply an estate issue, it is a retention issue, a recruitment issue and a readiness issue.

The test now is delivery. Before I conclude, I want to reflect on a letter I recently received from a constituent, the father of a serving RAF member. He wrote to me about helping his son move into accommodation at the start of a new posting, his first posting. Like any parent, he was proud. Proud that his son had chosen to serve his country, proud to see him beginning the next chapter of his career. But when he saw the room, his son had been allocated, that pride turned to concern.

The room was small, outdated and in poor condition. There was no heating. Basic facilities were inadequate. His son had to leave many of his possessions that made him feel at home, because there simply was not the space. What struck me most was not the description of the building itself. It was the father's description of leaving his son behind. As policy makers, it is easy for us to talk about estates, stock programmes and investment. Those things matter. But perhaps the best test is a simpler one.

When we make decisions about military housing, we should ask ourselves if this was our son or our daughter, would we be content to leave them there? Would we feel reassured driving away? Would we believe that they were being treated with the dignity and the respect that their service deserves? And would we feel that the nation was keeping its promise to them? If the answer is no, then we must do better. That is why I welcome the action this government is taking.

It is why I welcome the commitment to improve service, family accommodation and review single living accommodation. And it is why I hope Ministers will continue to push forward with urgency and ambition, because those who serve our country deserve decent homes. Their families deserve peace of mind. Their service deserves our respect and our gratitude must be

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matched by action. I call. Shadow Minister Mark Francois. Thank you very.

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Much. Madam Chairman. Having addressed our amendments earlier on towards the opening of the debate, I'd now like to speak particularly to the like to speak particularly to the new clauses, beginning with new clause three regarding a Veterans Commissioner for England. My hon. Commissioner for England. My hon. Friend from South Northamptonshire made a very good case for this amendment during the Select Committee phase on the bill, and she did exactly the same again in the House this afternoon, if I may say so.

She also received cross-party support, certainly in principle, from the hon. Member for Edinburgh South West, who gave, I thought, an extremely thoughtful contribution and also gave some support to my hon. Friend for Huntingdon with. Regarding his new clause five, which I will come on to in in just a moment. When I was debating another piece of primary legislation, the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill, now an act with the Minister here some months ago, he did make a commitment at that time that the existing veterans Commissioners for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would be mirrored by the appointment of a Veterans Commissioner for England.

However, that appointment has still not yet come to pass. That being

18:00

Rt Hon Mark Francois MP (Rayleigh and Wickford, Conservative)

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18:18

Al Carns MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) (Minister for Veterans) (Birmingham Selly Oak, Labour)

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18:54

Division

19:38

Petition

London Authority, secures critical economic, social and cultural benefits for residents, including the older person's Freedom Pass, zip travel passes for young people, free school meals in primary schools and investment in our area, including the Crystal Palace National Sports Centre. However, the Member for Clacton and Reform UK want to take us out of London and gamble with these crucial benefits. That's why I started the campaign to keep us in. Nearly ten 000 people have now signed the petition and I'm proud to present it here today.

The petitioners, therefore, request that the House of Commons urges the government to encourage Bromley Council and other relevant bodies to maintain the London Borough of Bromley status as an integral part of the Greater London Authority, safeguarding the public services, capital, investments and transport upon.

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Petition. London Borough of Bromley s membership of the Greater

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London Authority. Thank you. I beg to move that.

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This House do now adjourn. The question is that this House do now adjourn.

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do now adjourn. Wendy Chamberlain do. Madam Deputy Speaker, Madam Deputy Speaker, in addition to all the work you do here in the chair and work you do here in the chair and so much behind the scenes, you are also a constituency MP like myself and like the Minister himself and

19:39

Adjournment: Relationship between Social Security Scotland and the Department for Work and Pensions

19:59

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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this allowance, should be looked at by the working group. >> If it is OK with the hon. Lady,

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If it is OK with the hon. Lady, I will come to the broad thrust of the problem that she has identified, because I think it is quite complex in that there are also some challenges in England and Wales in this space that were identified by the review. But I will say a little more in a moment about that. But there is also continued ministerial engagement between the UK and Scottish governments through the Joint Ministerial Working Group on welfare, as a long standing forum providing oversight of the devolution of social security powers.

In addition, of course, to bilateral meetings as required, and I am the government's representative on that working group. But if I may turn to the the thrust of the hon. Member's contribution about the plight of her constituents in receipt of carers support payments, she is correct that the number of complaint handlers has been increased recently. It's also worth me mentioning, for the benefit of all colleagues, that I have personally now moved into a series of regular meetings on complaints and indeed MP correspondence, because I think it's fair to say that the Department recognises more must be done urgently to take a grip of that.

In the last two weeks I've had 2 or 3 such meetings already, and they will continue until we reach an acceptable level in terms of complaint handling and timeliness of response. In that vein, if she would like to send me the case that she referred to in March, where she's been told that that is yet to be assigned to a case handler, I would be very, very happy to look into that for her. But this has clearly been distressing for a number of constituents of the hon.

Members, and I acknowledge that. I also acknowledge that there will sometimes be cases where someone is given the wrong information by either my department or by Social Security Scotland, or where our IT systems could join up more effectively. Where that happens, we need to work together to put that right. Where I slightly disagree with the hon. Lady is the suggestion that this exists. As I said, only in Scotland. I think it's a rather more nuanced situation. There are clearly, from what she has said, some issues that I need to take away and look at.

But some of the issues that the hon. Member has identified, we have seen in England too, and I probably do myself no favours by saying that, in that I think that we've got a broader DWP issue rather than something that I would pin directly on Social Security Scotland, for example, as I just referenced, the issue in how Carer's Allowance and Universal Credit work together was identified in the review of Carer's Allowance overpayments in England and Wales in respect of Carer's Allowance.

We are committed to delivering this change in line with our plans to modernise DWP services. It will be for me as Minister for devolution to ensure that there is a a transition of those new arrangements that support the Scottish mechanisms also work to automatically offset benefits, which is where we want to get to. Will begin in the next financial year and is intended for completion within this Parliament. But hearing as I am for the first time today, the specifics of what the hon.

Lady has said, I will take that away. I am not able to make a commitment that that will be quickened up, but I want to have a look at that and see if there is anything that we can do. But we will work specifically on CSP with Social Security Scotland, to look at any issues around data sharing and processes necessary to align that are specific to Scotland. What I would also just briefly say, Madam Deputy Speaker, is that the implementation of the Social Security powers in the Scotland Act 2016 has been a significant programme of work, underpinned by strong cooperation between DWP and Social Security Scotland.

At every level, of course, there will be ongoing work required to keep the two systems working effectively together, but my department is committed to doing that. In the spirit of this productive, customer focussed relationship with the Scottish Government and Social Security Scotland. As issues arise and the hon. Lady has outlined many today and as I said to the hon. Gentleman from Strangford where he has them in Northern Ireland, I am happy to look at those two. We will work together as Social Security Scotland in this case, and the Department for Work and Pensions to draw on lessons learned from navigating the complexities of creating a shared social security landscape, to find solutions that are respectful of devolution, maintain our commitment to working together constructively and always keeping in mind what really matters here, which is the people that the Department for Work and Pensions and Social Security Scotland are here to help, and the experience that they have of our services.

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The question is that this House do now adjourn as many as are of do now adjourn as many as are of that opinion say aye. the ayes have

11:00

Oral questions: Energy Security and Net Zero

This debate has concluded

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