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Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
1. What assessment he has made of the level of business investment by banks in Wales.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
Recent Bank of England data show that the availability of credit to businesses, including small and medium-sized enterprises, has increased significantly across the United Kingdom.
Ian Lucas
Businesses in Wrexham tell me that the biggest barrier to growth is the lack of availability of finance. Today Barclays has talked of more redundancies and more bankers’ bonuses. Will the Secretary of State support me by establishing a regional bank for Wales which will be attuned to the local economy, and which will provide the finance for business that will enable the local economy to grow?
Mr Jones
The proposal for a development bank for Wales was floated recently by Professor Dylan Jones-Evans, and I believe that he is now conducting another exercise for Edwina Hart, the business development Minister in Wales. We are certainly prepared to consider the proposal, and, in fact, I have already discussed it with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills.
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend welcome the fact that it was this Government who passed the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Act 2013, which enabled local banks to come into existence and has resulted in the creation of more than 20 new challenger banks, and which the Labour party voted against?
Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)
Why, instead of coming out with the usual Government flannel, does the Secretary of State not admit that, according to the House of Commons Library, net bank lending—that is, new loans minus repayments—to small and medium-sized enterprises in Wales has been negative over the last two years? Since the third quarter of 2011, small businesses in Wales have paid back to the banks £148 million more than they have been able to borrow, and medium-sized businesses have paid back £186 million more than they have been lent. The truth is that the banking system in Wales is broken, and the Secretary of State is doing nothing about it.
Mr Jones
On the contrary, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) has just pointed out, the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Act has put a great deal more power into the hands of customers. It has also done a great deal to repair the damage that was done under the last Labour Administration.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
Many of my constituents continue to be affected by the interest rate swap scandal, when banks were deliberately targeting businesses, and wrecking lives and real economic activity. My constituents Mr and Mrs Bartels, for instance, were deliberately bankrupted by Barclays. What can the Secretary of State do to support the excellent work of the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) and the all-party parliamentary group on interest rate swap mis-selling to secure justice for Welsh businesses that have been ripped off by exploitative banks?
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
Given that banks are still not doing enough to help entrepreneurs in Wales, does the Secretary of State support his right hon. Friend the Chancellor in his legal pursuit of the European Union to prevent it from capping bankers’ bonuses?
Mr Jones
The position on bankers’ bonuses is entirely clear. In respect of the banks in which the Government have a shareholding, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has already said that there will be no cash bonuses of more than £2,000 at RBS and Lloyds Banking Group, and that the Government will veto any proposals to increase overall pay—that is, pay and bonus bills—at RBS.
John Howell (Henley) (Con)
2. What recent assessment he has made of employment trends in Wales.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)
Our long-term economic plan is working, and it is working for Wales. The economy is growing, and there have never been more people in work in Wales as unemployment continues to fall. I want to see all parts of Wales share in that positive trend.
John Howell
Can the Minister confirm that, because of the difficult decisions the Government have made, Wales has seen a larger fall in the rate of economic inactivity than any other UK nation?
Stephen Crabb
My hon. Friend is, as ever, exactly right. Wales has seen a larger fall in economic inactivity than any other part of the United Kingdom. We all welcome the fact that 57,000 fewer people are economically inactive in Wales, but that has come about only because of the responsible decisions made by the Government—decisions that were opposed by the Labour party.
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
I do not quite recognise that rosy picture of unemployment rates. Since 2011, long-term and youth unemployment in Wales has quadrupled. That is not something to celebrate. What are the Government doing to ensure that young people are able to find good jobs in Wales? Are the Government going to consider applying for part of the €6 billion European youth jobs guarantee fund, and if not, why not?
Stephen Crabb
Nobody is painting a rosy picture. There is still a long way to go and, in Wales in particular, there are still serious challenges to address. But neither are we in denial about the positive picture that is starting to emerge. That is something that we want all parts of Wales and people from all walks of life, including young people, to benefit from. That is one of the reasons that we are making it easier for businesses to hire young workers through the national insurance holiday for businesses.
Mr Llwyd
We have already heard about the importance of the small and medium-sized enterprise sector to Wales. One thing that would assist it is a further cut in business rates. Are the Government going to consider that, given that roughly 90% of employment in Wales is in the SME sector?
Stephen Crabb
The right hon. Gentleman is right to say that small and medium-sized businesses are the engines of job creation in Wales. They are the ones that are driving the fall in unemployment. Decisions on business rates have largely been devolved to the Welsh Government, and we are taking forward proposals to devolve them entirely, so that is really a discussion that he ought to be having with colleagues in Cardiff.
Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con)
10. Does my hon. Friend agree with my Welsh relatives that the reduction in the number of people unemployed in the last quarter by 12,000 is entirely due to the fact that the Government’s long-term economic plan is working?
Stephen Crabb
My hon. Friend and his relatives in Wales are right. That is exactly what is happening. There is a long way to go, however. The recovery is patchy, but a positive picture is emerging for Wales. Nobody should be in denial about the growth that we are seeing across Wales.
Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)
Recent improvements in employment rates in Wales are obviously profoundly welcome, but chronic unemployment continues to dog us. Last week, I met a miner in my constituency who had not worked for 30 years, since the pit closure programme. He, like many others in Wales, wants to know the full truth about the political motivations that lay behind that programme, which poured thousands of Welsh people on to the dole. Does the Minister agree that the papers should now be published in full so that we can know the truth?
Stephen Crabb
I am not going to be drawn on that specific issue, but there is a serious problem with long-term unemployment in Wales, with 200,000 people there who have never worked a day in their lives and 92,000 children living in homes where nobody works. That is exactly why the hon. Gentleman should be supporting what we are doing through the Work programme and our welfare reforms, which are going to benefit exactly those people.
Owen Smith
So a Minister for Wales refuses to engage on the issue of the miners’ strike that poured thousands of people on to the dole in Wales. Is he seriously telling those Welsh miners that they do not have the right to know the truth? Will he take the opportunity, when he comes back to the Dispatch Box, to apologise for the actions of his predecessors and for the political motivations that lay behind that strike?
Stephen Crabb
We understand why the shadow Secretary of State is bringing this politically motivated issue to the Dispatch Box today: it is because he has run out of things to say about the economy in Wales, about unemployment and about growth. Over the past three years, he has been proved wrong on all those issues.
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
May I invite my hon. Friend the Minister to congratulate the management of Dunbia on the announcement that 200 new jobs are to be created at Felinfach in the Aeron valley, contributing to the food processing sector that is so important to rural Wales? Those new jobs are good news for Wales.
Stephen Crabb
I join my hon. Friend in welcoming the investment from that meat processing company in his constituency. The agri-food sector is incredibly important to west Wales, and not least to Ceredigion. My hon. Friend represents one of the most important farming and agricultural constituencies in the UK, and the investment by that company is a sign of the growing confidence in the UK economy and the Welsh economy.
Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)
3. How many fitness to practise cases regulated by the Nursing and Midwifery Council in Wales are waiting to be resolved.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
While the Government do not hold the information requested, the Nursing and Midwifery Council advises that there are currently 190 fitness to practise cases in Wales that are waiting to be resolved.
Ann Clwyd
The Health Select Committee drew attention last year to the fact that there were 400 unresolved cases going back over a two-year period. Will the Secretary of State tell us how many of those cases are in Wales and how long they have been waiting for resolution? Is it not unfair on patients in Wales that that matter is still hanging over those hospitals?
Mr Jones
I commend the right hon. Lady for her role in chairing the committee that came up with such an important report on the processing of complaints in the health service.
Although the issue of complaints about nurses and midwives must be one for the Nursing and Midwifery Council, we are clearly anxious to ensure that complaints should be properly investigated. That is why we were extremely pleased that the Welsh Minister for Health and Social Services has now instituted his own inquiry into this issue.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that people who have complaints about the NHS in Wales under the Labour Welsh Assembly Government are unable simply to cross the border and access the far better treatments, wider range of drugs and shorter waiting lists on offer to those fortunate enough to be served by the Conservative coalition Government in England?
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
4. What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Justice on the Ministry of Justice’s shared services centre in Newport.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)
The Wales Office is in close contact with the Ministry of Justice, which is still at an early stage in evaluating options for the shared services centre in Newport. The Government are committed to ensuring that services are delivered efficiently, while providing value for money for taxpayers.
Jessica Morden
In December, hundreds of workers at the MOJ’s shared services centre in Newport learned that their jobs could be privatised, and obviously the work force has great concern that jobs could be outsourced or offshored, as we have seen with the Government’s model. Given the bad news that Newport received last week with the potential loss of jobs at Avana Bakeries, will the Minister speak up for public sector workers in Newport and tell the MOJ to abandon its plans?
Stephen Crabb
I thank the hon. Lady for her question. On the point about Avana Bakeries, she should be aware that I spoke to that company on Friday afternoon; the scenario is obviously very difficult for the city of Newport.
On the shared services centre, the evaluation of options is, as I said in my initial answer, at an early stage, but the Government will work with staff, trade unions and other stakeholders to assess any impact on staff. We are very mindful of the jobs impact on the hon. Lady’s constituency.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
5. If he will discuss with the First Minister the standards of education in Wales and of Welsh jobseekers in England; and if he will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
I am concerned that Wales risks being left behind in the employment market. All young people deserve an education system that provides them with the qualifications, skills and training needed to compete successfully in the global jobs market.
Michael Fabricant
You will know, Mr Speaker, that I served on the Committee that dealt with the Welsh Language Act 1993, that my mother is a Welsh language speaker and that I very much support bilingualism in Wales. However, does my right hon. Friend share my surprise that when I was debating the low standard of education in Wales with the Labour First Minister, he admitted that his Government took their “eye off the ball”? A whole generation of Welsh children was betrayed by the Labour Welsh Government.
Mr Jones
The First Minister clearly did take his eye off the ball. The recent programme for international student assessment—PISA—ratings show the extent to which the Welsh educational system is failing. That is because the Welsh Government are pursuing a course that does not mirror the improvements we are making in England, and I very much hope that the new Welsh Minister for Education and Skills will learn from the reforms we are implementing.
Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)
12. My two children were educated in Wrexham in their early years. Does the Secretary of State share my concern about the PISA league tables, which he mentioned? What discussions is he having with the Welsh Assembly Government to try to ensure the very best education for all our children in Wales?
Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
6. What discussions he has had with Ministers in the Welsh Government on waiting times for mental health support for combat veterans in Wales compared with those in England.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
It is essential that our veterans receive the best support and medical treatment, including mental health care, available to assist them to rebuild their lives.
Simon Hart
A military veteran living in Carmarthenshire has been told by NHS Wales that he has to wait up to eight months for urgent mental health treatment. The Veterans Association tells me that in parts of England the wait would be seven to 10 days. Will the Secretary of State sort out this problem on behalf of Welsh veterans?
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
The generosity of Welsh people in donating to mental health charities for veterans is unsurpassed. However, there have been concerns in recent months about the regulation and oversight of some of those charities and of some of the treatments available. Will the Secretary of State meet me to discuss those concerns to ensure that every penny piece that is raised by people in Wales goes towards the very best treatment for our veterans?
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
On Friday I met members of Swansea’s Combat Stress group, who told me that the nearest places for in-patient treatment were in Shropshire, Surrey or Scotland. Will the Secretary of State meet me and the Secretary of State for Defence, who is now in his seat, to talk about providing facilities for in-patient care for war veterans in St Athan and the idea of moving units coming out of Germany to St Athan in south Wales to provide much needed employment and economic stimulus?
Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)
7. What assessment he has made of the effects on Wales of the Government’s policy on superfast broadband roll-out.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)
As a result of the £57 million investment by this coalition Government in Westminster, the roll-out of superfast broadband in Wales will transform our broadband network. Last month, it was confirmed that 100,000 Welsh homes and businesses can now get access to superfast broadband.
Guto Bebb
I thank the Minister for his response. I welcome the fact that the roll-out is doing well in Wales. Will he respond to the fact that Llandudno and Llandudno junction, which are key commercial centres in north Wales, are not even scheduled for roll-out as yet? Is that another example of the Welsh Labour Government prioritising south Wales over north Wales?
Stephen Crabb
All Welsh Members of Parliament want their constituencies to be at the front of the queue for superfast broadband. The roll-out implementation plans are agreed between BT Cymru, the Welsh Government and Broadband Delivery UK. If my hon. Friend has specific concerns about that process, will he please raise them with me, and I will ensure that they get an airing?
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
14. I represent a very rural constituency where poor broadband is a particularly important issue. Has my hon. Friend made any assessment of the effect of poor internet connections on property values? That issue applies to the whole of Britain as well.
Stephen Crabb
I am not aware of any specific studies on the value of properties with regard to a lack of access to good-quality broadband, but I recognise the point that my hon. Friend makes. High-quality broadband is vital for revitalising the private sector and many of our rural communities.
Mrs Siân C. James (Swansea East) (Lab)
8. What plans the Government have for the future of the Land Registry and jobs in its office in Wales.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)
The Government are currently consulting on the proposal to create a new company, still subject to Government oversight, which would be responsible for delivering land registration services.
Mrs James
The Land Registry has a customer satisfaction rating of 98%. As a trading fund, it does not cost the taxpayer anything; indeed, it makes a significant surplus year on year. It made £98.8 million in the past year alone, yet the Government are now consulting to end its trading fund status. Will the Minister confirm that if, as a result of the consultation, the status of the Land Registry is changed to that of a Government-owned company, the people of Swansea will be protected, jobs will be protected and the services will not be changed?
Stephen Crabb
I thank the hon. Lady for her question. I will say again that no decisions on implementation have yet been taken, as all views from the consultation on the right commercial model for Land Registry need to be considered before any decision is taken. None the less, we expect that the majority of staff will be transferred to the new service delivery company, with a small minority remaining in the office of the chief land registrar.
Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)
9. What recent discussions he has had with his ministerial colleagues on the effects of VAT on the tourism and hospitality industry in Wales.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
Tourism and hospitality play an important role in the economy in Wales, attracting more than 4 million people from across Great Britain between July and September last year. The World Economic Forum has recently ranked the UK fifth in Europe in its travel and tourism competitiveness index.
Albert Owen
Our near neighbours, the Republic of Ireland, and most other European countries have reduced the level of value added tax in the tourism sector, boosting jobs, growth and investment in their countries. The United Kingdom and Wales are among those with the highest rates of VAT in Europe, and, according to an independent inquiry, that has led to the suppression of jobs and investment. Will the Secretary of State lobby the Treasury to ensure that we have a competitive rate of VAT and that we reduce VAT, which is a tax on jobs?
Mr Jones
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is as happy as I am that tourism expenditure in Wales increased by £746 million over the past year. The United Kingdom is highly competitive in the tourism market. As I said in my initial answer, the World Economic Forum has indicated that the UK is the fifth most competitive economy in Europe, ahead of France, Portugal and Italy.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
As in Scotland, VAT on tourism in Wales has a negative effect on the industry. Will he press his Treasury colleagues to ensure a reduction from 20% to 5%, as requested in yesterday’s debate in Westminster Hall, to benefit very scenic constituencies like mine and Carmarthen East and Dinefwr?
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
11. How many people in Wales benefited from the recent reduction in the additional rate of income tax.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
Approximately 4,000 people in Wales pay the additional rate of income tax.
Susan Elan Jones
I thank the Secretary of State for that brief response. In his maiden speech as a Member of the Welsh Assembly, the right hon. Gentleman said, “We have no tax-raising powers—long may that state of affairs continue.” As someone who supported the Assembly having tax-levying powers in the 1997 referendum, I find that view extraordinary. Surely the reason he now wants income tax to be devolved to Wales is to cut public services and cut taxes for the rich.
Mr Jones
Rather than concentrating on what I said in 2002, the hon. Lady ought to listen to what her hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) said only last week. The Labour Government in Wales do not want income tax devolved to Wales, but the Conservative and Liberal Democrat coalition Government here in Westminster do.
Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab)
13. What assessment he has made of changes in real wages in Wales since 2010; and if he will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)
Wales had seen the biggest increase in average earnings of all the regions and nations of the United Kingdom, with earnings increasing at twice the national average and more than twice the current rate of inflation. Wage levels are still not where we want them to be, but that is still positive news for Wales.
Julie Elliott
Wales has the highest proportion of people earning less than the living wage, which is outrageous. What are the Government doing to tackle that problem?
Stephen Crabb
My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has already said where he wants to see the national minimum wage going, as conditions allow. We want to see a strong minimum wage that will benefit low-paid workers. One of the most important things we are doing is taking 130,000 of the lowest-paid people in Wales out of income tax altogether by increasing the personal allowance to £10,000, something the hon. Lady and her colleagues should very much support.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
Does the Minister accept that wages in Flintshire have dropped dramatically since the election of the Conservative and Liberal Democrat Government and that the situation is not helped by cuts to child tax credits, by the bedroom tax or by other measures they are taking? Will he join my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) this afternoon in his plan to introduce a Bill to scrap the bedroom tax?
Stephen Crabb
If the right hon. Gentleman looks at the figures, he will see that the biggest destruction in real wage levels occurred under the last three years of the previous Labour Government, and we are still recovering from the economic trauma of that period. Wage levels are still not where we want them to be, but they are increasing in Wales, which is positive news for people on the lowest incomes.
Mr Speaker
Well, we have got through the lot, the principals are present and the House is expectant, so we can move on to questions to the Prime Minister.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
Q1. If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 12 February.
The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further such meetings later today.
Caroline Lucas
Our hearts go out to everyone whose lives are being devastated by the current floods. I am sure we all welcome the Prime Minister’s promise yesterday that he will do everything he can both with the relief effort and in building a more resilient country into the future. Does he therefore agree that it would be both complacent and ignorant to flout the warnings of the Met Office and his own advisers, who warn that climate change will lead to even more such events in the future? Can he confirm for the House and for everyone in my Brighton constituency that doing everything he can will include not only reversing cuts to the Environment Agency budget and giving proper funding for flood prevention but, crucially, removing anyone from the Cabinet—[Interruption.]
The Prime Minister
Let me reassure the hon. Lady that I listen very carefully to my experts in the Met Office and in the Environment Agency. Every Cobra meeting starts with a briefing from the Met Office. I think it is clear that we are seeing more extreme weather events, and I suspect that we will go on seeing more extreme weather events. We need to do everything we can to improve the resilience of our country. Let me repeat again that, as I said yesterday, when it comes to this relief effort, money is no object. We will spend what is necessary to help families, to help people and to help communities get through this very difficult time. I have to say that things are likely to get worse before they get better, because of the very high levels of rainfall we have seen—and we are seeing very serious high winds as we speak here in the House today—but whatever can be done to help will be done.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
Q2. Last year, my constituent Georgia Williams was brutally murdered. At the subsequent trial, it was revealed that her attacker had previously attacked another young girl five years earlier. Yet, unbelievably, that attacker got off the earlier offence with just a police caution—a written warning. Will the Prime Minister join me in calling on West Mercia police to publish all relevant material relating to that earlier case in order that any lessons that can be learned will be learned?
The Prime Minister
First of all, my hon. Friend is absolutely right to take up his constituent’s case in this way. He has written to me about this specific case. My sympathy goes out to the family and friends of Georgia Williams. As he has asked, I understand that the Independent Police Complaints Commission is currently considering its response to a referral from West Mercia police into the handling of this case and what needs to be published. On the issue of cautions, we announced last year that we are banning the use of simple cautions for all of the most serious offences, including manslaughter, rape and robbery, as well as a range of other offences that devastate lives and tear apart communities. Clearly, this is a tragic case and we must get to the bottom of what went wrong.
Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)
I join the Prime Minister in expressing all my sympathies with people who have been affected by the floods, who have been driven out of their homes, and who are facing disruption to their lives. I also join him in paying tribute to all those helping with relief efforts and to the extraordinary resilience we have seen in the past few weeks of the people of our country. He will know that people in affected communities are relieved that help from the armed forces and emergency services has now arrived, but many feel they were sent in too late. With further flooding expected in the coming hours and days, can the Prime Minister provide an assurance that people will be getting help in time, not after the event?
The Prime Minister
I can certainly give that assurance. Let me repeat again that it is important, as the right hon. Gentleman said, to praise our emergency services, to praise volunteers, and to praise all those working for the Environment Agency, who have worked night and day, round the clock, to help our communities. They really have done amazing work, and we should thank them.
In terms of the engagement of the military, I think that this is important. It has always been possible for gold commanders in these emergency situations to call on military assets. Indeed, a military liaison officer is supposed to sit with those gold commanders and liaise with them. What we have done in recent days is to say very clearly to all the local authorities concerned, which we have contacted individually, “If you want military assistance, don’t think twice about it: think once, then ask, and they’ll be there.” We have now got thousands of military at a state of readiness to help out. A huge number have already been deployed; and yes, as we see the levels potentially rising on the Thames again coming into this weekend, we should do everything we can now to get extra help into those communities that could be affected and make sure that they are helped. All the military assistance that is required is there; people only have to ask.
Edward Miliband
I welcome that promise of proactive help from the Prime Minister. Given the forecasts of extreme weather and that river levels are rising, one of the key issues that will concern people is not just their homes but continuing gas and electricity supplies. We have learned from experience in 2007 that protecting electricity substations that can be responsible for power for hundreds of thousands of homes is of particular importance. Can he reassure the House about the steps being taken to protect these vital services?
The Prime Minister
I can give the right hon. Gentleman that assurance. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Government Policy carried out a review into the resilience of our infrastructure. A lot of extra steps were taken following that, and that has made a difference. Also, in the Cobra system, we are monitoring every day those particular bits of infrastructure that could be under threat. In recent days, it has more been about water-treatment works than electricity works.
I also spoke to the Minister responsible for energy policy, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), at this morning’s Cobra to make sure that everything is done to contact the energy companies to stand up the people who will be necessary if there are further supply interruptions over the coming days. Since the experience of the problems in Kent after Christmas, the energy companies and the network companies have done a better job at reconnecting people more quickly.
Edward Miliband
I thank the Prime Minister for that answer. One of the reassurances that he provided yesterday, as he said in an earlier answer, was to say that money was no object, but this morning the Transport Secretary said that it is not a “blank cheque”. Will the Prime Minister tell the House exactly what areas of spending yesterday’s promise covers?
The Prime Minister
I was very clear last night, and let me repeat again that, as I said last night, money is no object in this relief effort. I want communities who are suffering and people who see water lapping at their doors to know that when it comes to the military, sandbags, the emergency services, restoring broken flood defences—all of those things—money is no object. To be fair to the Transport Secretary, this is what he said this morning:
“money is not the issue while we’re in this relief job.”
That is what he said. He is absolutely right.
Edward Miliband
The Prime Minister is of course absolutely right about the relief effort. He also said yesterday that he will
“spend whatever it takes to recover from this”
and make sure that we have a
“resilient country for the future.”
Let me give him an example in that context. Yesterday, he praised the staff of the Environment Agency, but it is in the process, this year, of making 550 people dealing with flooding redundant. These are staff who help put in place and maintain flood defences, and help deal with clean-up. If money is no object, as he said, is he committing now to reconsidering these redundancies?
The Prime Minister
Let me tell the right hon. Gentleman exactly what we are doing with the Environment Agency and with the flood defence budget. We are spending £2.4 billion over the four-year period between 2010 and 2014, which compares with just £2.2 billion in the previous four-year period. What I can say to the House—I think that this is important—is that as the waters recede, it will be important for the Environment Agency and for local authorities all to look again at the flood patterns we have seen and the models that they have, and to work out what fresh flood defences will be necessary.
In addition to that, I can tell the House that we will be introducing a grant for all affected home owners and businesses to build in better flood protection as they repair their properties. That will be up to £5,000 per house and per business. On top of that, we are announcing a £10 million fund to help farmers who have seen their land waterlogged day after day, week after week. I can also announce today that we will be deferring the tax payments that businesses have to pay, and all the businesses that have been affected by floods will get 100% business rate relief.
Edward Miliband
Those steps are welcome and will be welcomed across the House, but I am afraid that the Prime Minister did not answer the specific question I asked, which is about the 550 people who work on flood defences who the Environment Agency is planning to make redundant. They are people who are currently helping with the clean-up, and who put in place the flood defences.
Similarly, on the issue of spending on flood defence, the Committee on Climate Change says that we are spending significantly less on flood defence than we should. My question is a simple one: given yesterday’s promise to make sure that we have a
“resilient country for the future”
and will
“spend whatever it takes”,
is the Prime Minister committing now to reconsidering these redundancies and the amount of money we invest in flood defences?
The Prime Minister
Let me tell the right hon. Gentleman what we are doing with the Environment Agency budget into the future. We have set out the figures for the Environment Agency budget in terms of capital spending all the way up to 2020. We have made capital spending pledges only in areas such as transport and flood defences—pledges that no one else is able to match, particularly not if they are committed to a zero-based budget review, but promises we are happy to make so that people can see how much money will be spent on flood defences in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2020. We are only able to make those pledges because we have managed our economy effectively and managed our Budgets effectively.
Edward Miliband
I say to the Prime Minister that he came along to his press conference yesterday and made what sounded like a very grand promise to
“spend whatever it takes to recover from this and to make sure we have a resilient country for the future”.
The simple point that I am making to him is that there are real doubts about that when it comes to making members of the Environment Agency who deal with flooding redundant and the Committee on Climate Change—the expert body that is charged with this—says that the investment in flood defences is not happening. He needs to reconsider those things.
I urge the Prime Minister to ensure this in the coming days: the Government need to speak with one voice on this issue; the response needs to be speedier than it has been in the past; and everyone affected needs to feel that they are getting the help they need. If the Government do that, they will have our full support.
The Prime Minister
What I said last night is exactly what I have said today: when it comes to this relief effort, money will be no object. I do not want people to worry about penny-pinching as they see the vital work that is needed to help them with their houses and to deal with the floods. This is what this Government are doing: we are deploying the military when we are asked for the military; we deployed extra pumps when we were asked for pumps; we are raising the compensation to local government to 100%, because that is what local communities should have. I am only sorry that the right hon. Gentleman seeks to divide the House, when we should be coming together for the nation.
Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con)
I thank my right hon. Friend for his recent visit to Plymouth to discuss our broken rail link. Will he commit our Government to finding long-term solutions to providing rail resilience in the far south-west? Will he join me today in sending a very clear signal to the rest of the country that, despite our current problems, Devon and Cornwall are firmly open for business?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That message needs to go out loud and clear. Businesses, including tourism businesses, in Cornwall and Devon want people’s custom and want people to know that the peninsula is very much open for business. On his specific question, yes we are finding £31 million to fund 10 rail-resilience projects in the south-west to improve the resilience against flooding. That will include work at Cowley bridge junction, Chipping Sodbury, Hinksey, Whiteball tunnel and a number of other places including Honiton and Crewkerne. Clearly, the most important thing is that Dawlish rail link. I saw for myself yesterday the intense damage that has been done to that track and the huge destruction that was wrought by the waves. That work will take up to six weeks. I know that Network Rail is working as hard as it can. I have said to it that for any help that it needs, it needs only to ask.
Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)
Q3. If he will review the Government’s policy not to disclose the identity of companies that are made to pay penalties in respect of non-payment of the minimum wage. [R]
The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
We are the first Government to name and shame employers that fail to pay the minimum wage. The name of the first company was published in 2011. We have revised the scheme to make publication easier, but I am not satisfied that that is going fast enough. The identity of companies that have been found to have broken the law will be made public very soon.
Andy Sawford
I thank the Prime Minister for that response. However, two employment agencies in my constituency have recently been found not to have been paying the minimum wage to their workers and have had to pay penalties, but the Government say that they have to protect the confidentiality of those companies. My constituents think that the Government are standing up for the wrong people—the rip-off agencies—rather than the workers. Will he look at that matter?
The Prime Minister
As I said, we will publish the names of those companies—something that never happened under the Labour party. We are taking action. When it comes to penalties for not paying the minimum wage, last year more than 700 employers received penalties for failing to comply with minimum wage law and the value of those penalties was almost seven times higher than in the final year of the last Labour Government. We hear a lot of talk about enforcing the minimum wage from the Labour party, but there is a lot of action from this Government.
Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)
Q4. Crime is down by 10% and our excellent Home Secretary’s police reforms are allowing good officers to do more with less. Will the Prime Minister implement the Normington reforms of the Police Federation immediately so that police culture can be further improved?
The Prime Minister
We are working with the Police Federation on this issue, and it is clearly an organisation in need of reform. To be fair, the new head of the Police Federation—whom I have met—recognises that and wants to act, and I think we should support him in sorting out that organisation so that it better represents its members.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
Q5. Two weeks ago, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury refused to rule out any further tax cuts for millionaires, but last week he said that that would be over his dead body. Can the Prime Minister help him out today by ruling out any further tax cuts for top earners, or should his Chief Secretary be looking to up his life insurance?
The Prime Minister
I saw the Chief Secretary this morning at Cobra and he looked alive and well to me, so the hon. Lady does not have any worries on that front. I have said that that is not our priority; our priority is to cut taxes for low and middle earners, and that is what we have done. When it comes to April this year, her constituents will be able to earn £10,000 without paying any income tax at all. That is equivalent to a 10% increase in the minimum wage, and means that their income tax bill will have gone down by two thirds under this Government. Those are the sorts of tax cuts that we are interested in.
Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD)
May I thank the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister for their personal engagement with our issues on the Somerset levels, and may I ask the Prime Minister a question that I do not think the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government quite grasped on Monday? When the emergency, the crisis phase of this problem, is over, we must have sustainable plans to protect people on the Somerset levels. That will require a revenue stream that will come through local government, and that means changes to the way that is administered. When we have those detailed plans, will the Prime Minister meet me and others from Somerset to ensure that we have a sustainable future?
The Prime Minister
I am very happy to meet the hon. Gentleman and other MPs from Somerset, and I have visited twice to see for myself. The problem at the moment, as we know, is simply the pumping capacity. It is now taking 3 million tonnes—soon 5 million tonnes—of water off the Somerset levels, but because there are 65 million tonnes, or more, of water on the levels, it is going to take time. What we need to do once that water level starts to come down is get the dredging going, and then work out the long-term programme for ensuring that this man-made environment is properly looked after by man, so that it is sustainable for the future. I am very happy to meet the hon. Gentleman and discuss that.
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)
Q6. Conditions outside are dreadful; the voluntary sector, emergency services and individuals have been amazing, but people and businesses are angry. In my region, the south-west, people are angry because of what they see as the excessive costs of High Speed 2, when the whole of the west country is without a resilient rail network. The money that was announced—reannounced—today, is welcome but not enough. Will the Prime Minister commit in the medium term to ensuring that he supports growth and recovery in the region, and that Plymouth is put on the strategic road transport network? It is not there at the moment, and it should be.
The Prime Minister
I would make three quick points to the hon. Lady. I totally understand her concern and the concern of her constituents. First, I do not want anyone to be under the misapprehension that HS2 will be built at the expense of the west country—it will not. In the next Parliament, we will spend three times more on other road and rail schemes as we will spend on HS2, and some of those schemes will directly benefit people in the west country. Secondly, while we are working as fast as we can to restore the Dawlish link, we need to look at longer-term alternatives, and I have discussed that with Network Rail and First Great Western to see what more can be done. Thirdly, in the meantime, while Dawlish is as it is, we need to go on boosting the air services to the peninsula. That is why I met Flybe in Newquay. It has doubled the number of flights and we have taken £5 off the cost of each of those flights. We also need to make sure that the replacement bus services are as good as they can be. If we do all those things, that will lessen the impact of this tragedy for the west country.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
Q7. With flooding in Frampton for residents and for businesses in Woodchester, and more risks to my constituency associated with warnings for the Severn estuary, does the Prime Minister agree that the action taken so far by various agencies and councils has been helpful? Can he reassure my constituents that the Government will continue to invest in flood defences?
The Prime Minister
I can certainly give my hon. Friend that assurance. He is right to mention the difficulties on the River Severn, because the River Severn, the River Tame and the River Wye are all expected to respond to recent rainfall, and levels are likely to go up. In terms of the Thames, I should tell the House that a second peak in Thames levels is expected on Sunday and Monday, which could potentially put 800 properties at risk. We will go on doing whatever we can to help people—getting people to communities before they are flooded. It is worth making the point, to be fair to the previous Government as well as this one, that all the schemes that have been built since the 2007 floods, when 55,000 homes were flooded, are now protecting well over 1 million properties that would have been flooded this time around, were it not for the important work that has been done.
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
Q8. This week Shelter found that house prices have been rising faster than wages in most parts of the country. Does the Prime Minister not agree that the lack of affordable housing is making the cost of living crisis worse for millions of people across our country? Will he confirm that this Government have presided over the fewest new homes built since the 1920s?
The Prime Minister
Housing starts are up from the dreadful situation we were left by the previous Government. We are now investing huge amounts into affordable housing. I make no apology for the fact that it is right to deal with the demand side on housing, as well as the supply side. Programmes such as Help to Buy are helping to get builders building, because builders will not build unless they believe that buyers are able to buy. We are fixing this problem and house building is rising.
Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con)
Parts of my constituency are suffering from flooding. I want to put on record my thanks to the council officers from West Berkshire council and Reading borough council, the volunteer flood wardens in places such as Purley and the soldiers of the 7th Battalion the Rifles for the work they are doing to help my constituents. I welcome the schemes the Prime Minister has talked about to help individuals and businesses. Will he ensure that the details of those schemes are made available to everyone affected, so that they can make use of them?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an important point. I know that he is working very hard to bring people together in his own constituency to make sure that everything that can be done in Reading is done. Obviously, they will be concerned about the rise in the Thames. We will publish details of all the announcements I have made, and we will add into that the fact that the major banks are coming forward with more than £750 million of financial support, which will mean repayment holidays, reduced or waived fees, loan extensions, increased flexibility of terms and specialist support teams deployed on the ground for businesses and farmers who desperately need help. It is a time for our insurance companies and our banks to demonstrate real social responsibility. I believe that they are beginning to do that and we should encourage them to do so.
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
Q9. Does the Prime agree that, after months of letting energy companies get away with increasing their profits on the back of hard-working people across the country, the Energy Secretary’s letter to the regulator this week was simply too little, too late?
The Prime Minister
The Energy Secretary was right to write to Ofgem, because it is part of the competition review we have announced. It is on this side of the House that we have delivered the £50 off bills by rolling back the cost of the green levies. That is the right approach, rather than promising a freeze that only means prices will go up.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
Does the Prime Minister agree that the success of coalition policies in helping to create more jobs than forecast is very encouraging? Does he also agree that to get sustained growth we need businesses to invest more? Will he do all he can to support my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary in encouraging more business investment?
The Prime Minister
In this next stage of the recovery, an increase in business investment is what we need to see. I think there are positive signs from the last GDP numbers. My hon. Friend talks about there being more jobs than forecast. It is worth remembering that the Leader of the Opposition told the CBI in October 2010:
“They have a programme which will lead to the disappearance of a million…jobs.”
Since he made that statement, we have seen 1.6 million new private sector jobs and 1.3 million more people in work—more forecasts like that please.
Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)
Q10. With almost 1 million young people unemployed and the Work programme, in the Chancellor’s own words, underperforming, will the Prime Minister think again and introduce Labour’s youth jobs guarantee?
The Prime Minister
The Work programme has done an excellent job in getting people into work. If we look at the job creation record under this Government, we see, as I have just said, 1.3 million more people in work, a reduction in youth unemployment and a reduction in long-term unemployment. There are more people in our work force than ever before. There is always more to do to get young people into work. The best schemes we have had are those such as the work experience scheme, which seem to be providing real hope and jobs for our young people.
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
May I thank my right hon. Friend for coming to Plymouth on Monday to see for himself how hard First Great Western is working to try to get trains back on track? One thing that would be incredibly helpful would be to ensure we have a timetable for those actions so that we can deliver a resilient railway line as well.
The Prime Minister
I completely understand my hon. Friend’s concern. Obviously the gap in rail provision created by the Dawlish disaster will take time to deal with. Above and beyond that, I know that what he and people in Plymouth want is a timetable for achieving a three-hour service to Plymouth and for more trains to arrive early in the morning. As I have said, we have a longer-term programme of looking at rail alternatives at the same time as restoring the Dawlish line.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
Q11. With economic growth delayed for three years after the election, we have been left—[Interruption.] We have been left with more young people out of work long term than at any time for 20 years. Surely we must do more so that we do not waste the potential of a generation.
The Prime Minister
I can only think that the right hon. Gentleman is suffering from a form of memory loss. He was a Treasury Minister when we lost 7% of our GDP, when youth unemployment doubled, and when people were being thrown out of work. Under this Government, 1.3 million more people are in work, young people are getting back to work and, while countries elsewhere are struggling, our economy is growing. That is partly because we took tough and difficult decisions to get the budget deficit, which he and his henchmen left us, under control.
Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD)
Unfortunately, some tourist concerns in my constituency have reported lost bookings, partly as a result of over-sensationalising of the crisis. When the crisis is over, will the Prime Minister talk to the Treasury about allocating a sum of money to market the far south-west to potential visitors and businesses, to get the message across that we really are open for business?
The Prime Minister
This was a point made to me by a number of the businesses that I visited in Cornwall and Devon over the last couple of days, all wanting to see much more advertising and publicity about how the area is open for business. I will take every opportunity I have to help with that issue. When the Dawlish line is restored, it will be a big moment to market the benefits of Devon and Cornwall, where I have been on holiday myself.
Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)
Q12. May I invite the Prime Minister to recall the day that he asked the country to imagine a Tory Government who would be the most family-friendly in Europe? When he reflects on that day, will he also consider the recent report from the Centre for Economics and Business Research that shows that the cost of raising a child and getting him or her through university has risen by £5,000 in one year? Does he think that for most families money is no object?
The Prime Minister
Many families have faced a very tough time in this country, not least because of the appalling recession that we had under the Labour party. But this Government have taken steps to encourage flexible working; we are introducing tax-free child care; and we have supported more child care for more families than the last Government did, helping two, three and four-year-olds. We have the new rules on shared parental leave and, above all, many families now have someone in work because the economy is moving and businesses are employing people. Those 1.3 million extra jobs mean 1.3 million more families with the security and peace of mind of a regular pay cheque coming in. That is the best way to help our families.
Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con)
May I remind the Prime Minister that in 1998 Northampton suffered serious floods, sadly killing two people and affecting 2,000 houses? Since that time I have noticed that we have not over-bothered not to build on floodplains. After this episode has been dealt with and his time is more readily available, will he ensure that we do not build on floodplains so that people are not inconvenienced in this way?
The Prime Minister
I will look very carefully at what my hon. Friend says. The figures suggest that, in applications to build properties on flood plains, the official advice, which includes the advice from the Environment Agency, is followed on 99% of occasions. It is worth remembering that areas such as London are part of flood plains, so it is not possible simply to say that no house can ever be built on a flood plain, but we need to look at the rules, listen to the experts and ensure we build only where we can protect.
Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)
Q13. Thanks to Labour in the Scottish Parliament, Scots may soon be free of the iniquitous bedroom tax, so will the Prime Minister today give an assurance to the House and the Scottish people that he will work with the Scottish Government to help bring that about, or, better still, scrap that hated tax for everyone in Britain? If he will not, Labour will.
The Prime Minister
Obviously, under our devolved system, different parts of the United Kingdom can make different decisions to spend money as they choose. My view is that it is not fair to tell someone in private rented accommodation that they do not get money for extra bedrooms and tell someone in social accommodation that they do. It is a basic issue of fairness, which is why it has overwhelming public support.
Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con)
Q14. Last week, I undertook a one and a half hour walk organised by Guide Dogs for the Blind to experience at first hand the difficulties that blind and partially sighted people experience as pedestrians—it was very tricky. Will my right hon. Friend look carefully at the recommendations of that organisation on shared surface streets?
The Prime Minister
I will look carefully at what my hon. Friend says. Everyone has noticed the huge amount of improvements that have been made to the way in which streets, traffic lights and pavements are arranged for that purpose. I am happy to look at what he says and see what more needs to be done.
Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)
Q15. If the Prime Minister believes that flood defence is so important, why did he cut the budget when he came into office?
The Prime Minister
As I have explained, we will be spending £2.4 billion in this four-year period, which compares with £2.2 billion under Labour. I think the hon. Gentleman will find that 2.4 is more than 2.2. Also, by setting out the spending figures all the way up to 2020, he must ask the shadow Chancellor, who is back in the gesticulation game, whether, if he has a zero-based budget review, he has to admit to his colleagues that he cannot guarantee to match any of the spending we have announced. Silence.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
The Prime Minister is aware of a cross-party group of some 80 MPs campaigning for recognition of our nuclear test veterans. Given that the UK compares poorly with other countries on the treatment of veterans and the very high incidence of ill health suffered by their descendants, will the Prime Minister meet us? We have hit a brick wall with the Ministry of Defence and the Government have a good track record of recognising past wrongs.
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend has consistently campaigned on that. I have discussed it with him before and wrote to him a month ago setting out the Government’s view. The frequently stated position of this Government and previous ones is that there is no published peer-reviewed evidence of excess illness or mortality, but it is right to go on looking at the issue, as I know he will. We will continue to discuss it with him.
Development of Greenbelt Land in South Staffordshire
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to present a petition from 4,281 residents of South Staffordshire and other areas protesting against the proposals to build on green-belt land between Cheslyn Hay and Great Wyrley.
The petition states:
The Petition of residents of Great Wyrley and Cheslyn Hay in the South Staffordshire constituency, and others,
Declares that the current proposals to build a car park, health centre and over 140 houses on greenbelt land by Landywood Lane, Great Wyrley will lead to the erosion of the distinct identity of our individual villages and could cause substantial environmental damage; further notes that despite the rejection by South Staffordshire District Council of the current proposals, in line with public opinion, the applicant has appealed to the Planning Inspectorate to ignore the wishes of local residents and overturn the council’s decision.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to take all possible steps to ensure that the Planning Inspectorate upholds the decision reached by South Staffordshire District Council and rejects these proposals so that the greenbelt can be conserved for future generations.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P001318]
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Since Mr Speaker is an ex officio Church Commissioner, he will be aware that on Monday 10 February a petition was delivered to the General Synod of the Church of England at Church House here in Westminster. May I appeal to you, Sir, to ask him, on behalf of my constituents, to take whatever steps he is able to ensure that that matter in the petition—the continued use of the bishop’s palace in Wells as the home of the bishops of Bath and Wells, as has been the custom and tradition for over 800 years—is discussed fully at the Church Commissioners’ next meeting and that the views of the petitioners are taken into account? I am most grateful, Sir, for your attention to this matter.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for giving me notice of that point of order. Obviously I can give no direct help, but I will ensure that Mr Speaker is aware of what has been said. I know that he is an avid reader of Hansard and will already have picked up on this before I speak to him. It may be helpful to the hon. Lady if I say that Church Commissioners questions is coming up tomorrow and she may be ingenious enough to raise it there as well.
Residence of the Bishop of Bath and Wells
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
The petition relates to the Church Commissioners’ decision to relocate the Bishop of Bath and Wells from the flat in the bishop’s house, which they condemn as unsuitable for temporary living accommodation, citing reasons of sustainability and privacy. The diocese and the palace trust have expressed publicly their opposition, as have thousands of local residents who want to understand how the flat in the bishop’s house can be unsuitable, particularly when considerable sums were spent on repairs and maintenance four years ago; how travelling several miles to work, worship and back can be considered sustainable; and how a property on the A371 can be more private than the secluded flat in the bishop’s house, with its private garden, when the palace is closed to visitors from 4 pm at this time of year and 6 pm in the summer.
The petition states:
The Petition of residents of the UK,
Declares that the Petitioners believe that the Church Commissioners’ decision to move the Bishop of Bath and Wells from the Bishop’s Palace and Gardens is a mistake and further that a local Petition on this subject has received well over 2,000 signatures.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Church Commissioners to wait until the new Bishop of Bath and Wells takes up office and then reconsiders and consults on whether he should reside at Bishop’s Palace and Gardens.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P001319]
Hillsborough
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on the Hillsborough stadium tragedy.
It is over a year now since Parliament last debated Hillsborough and the report of the Hillsborough Independent Panel. I hope the House will join me again in expressing my thanks and gratitude to the panel’s chairman, Bishop James Jones, and all his colleagues for their remarkable work. The contents of the panel’s report were truly shocking, and on the day it was published, the Prime Minister apologised to the families of the 96 for what he described as a “double injustice”. The first injustice, he said, was the appalling events; the second was the treatment of victims by the press.
I would like to pay tribute to the bereaved families, the survivors and all those who have campaigned on their behalf. As Home Secretary, I have met a number of the bereaved families, and I have always been impressed by the dignified way they and their supporters have continued their search for truth and justice. I would also like to pay tribute to those in the House who have campaigned on behalf of the families, including the hon. Members for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram), for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle) and for Halton (Derek Twigg) and the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham).
So significant were the conclusions of the panel’s report that its publication on 12 September 2012 set in train a number of important events. By the end of that year, this had resulted in the High Court’s quashing of the original inquest verdicts and the ordering of fresh inquests, and the establishment of two major investigations. In a debate in the House following publication of the panel’s report, I said that
“after the truth must come justice; and after the apology, accountability.”—[Official Report, 22 October 2012; Vol. 551, c. 721.]
As lead Minister, it is my responsibility to ensure that the various processes of Government and the criminal justice system are working effectively and are properly resourced to ensure that justice can be done, not only for those who died, but, just as importantly, for their families and all those who have campaigned on their behalf ever since.
Today, I would like to update the House on the progress made in respect of the new inquests and the new investigations. First, I shall deal with the inquests. Last year, and within two months of the decision by the High Court, Lord Justice Goldring was appointed as coroner to conduct the fresh inquests. A number of pre-inquest hearings have already been held. The police and the Independent Police Complaints Commission investigations are working in support of the coroner to a timetable determined by him, and the Government welcome the fact that Lord Justice Goldring has made it clear that the fresh inquests will start on 31 March.
I have always made it clear that the Government will support the families in their quest for justice and, as part of that commitment, we are funding a comprehensive legal representation scheme. Work began on this immediately after the original inquest verdicts were quashed, and the scheme that is now in place will ensure that the families are properly represented and supported at the inquests.
In addition to the inquests, there is the investigative process, to which there are two elements. The first is led by the IPCC. This is its biggest-ever investigation, and its principal focus is on police involvement in the aftermath of Hillsborough. It is worth reminding the House that this includes not just the role and actions of the South Yorkshire police, the force responsible for policing the match, but the West Midlands police, who played a significant role in the aftermath, providing support to Lord Taylor’s inquiry, producing the report to the Director of Public Prosecutions and assisting the then South Yorkshire West coroner, Dr Stefan Popper. I can therefore confirm that the experience of survivors, again brought to public attention in the last week, is part of the ongoing IPCC investigation.
The second element is a criminal investigation—Operation Resolve—led by Jon Stoddart, the former chief constable of Durham. He was appointed by me in December 2012 and his key role is to investigate the deaths at Hillsborough. Working alongside both investigations is a discrete Crown Prosecution Service team, through which lawyers from the CPS provide ongoing advice.
When he was the Bishop of Liverpool and sitting in another place, Bishop James Jones said that justice was about process as well as outcomes. The unique, complex and wide-ranging circumstances of Hillsborough meant that two major and large-scale investigations had to be created from scratch, and both had to have firm foundations. Suitable premises had to be found, acquired and fitted out. This has been done. Suitably skilled and appropriate staff had to be identified and recruited. This has also been done. It was inevitable that this would take time but the investigations are now located together on one site in Warrington—close to the source of the investigation—and are making good progress.
Like a number of the bereaved families and a number of those in this House, I have been to Warrington to see both investigations for myself. I have met some of the staff from the IPCC and Operation Resolve investigations and I was struck by their dedication and professionalism. I welcome the fact that the IPCC and Operation Resolve want their investigations to be open and transparent and both investigations have welcomed the opportunity to demonstrate to families the work they are doing.
I would like now to set out to the House some of the progress being made; first, in respect of the IPCC. Over 1,600 people have now responded to the IPCC’s witness appeal. This includes over 250 people who have never given accounts before. The IPCC is conducting detailed analysis of every response and is following up the evidence provided. Separately around 400 witnesses have made requests to the IPCC to see their original statements and the IPCC is helping people to access those statements.
In addition, the IPCC has recovered around 2,500 police pocket notebooks. These pocket books had not been made available to previous investigations and are now being analysed by IPCC investigators.
The IPCC has also conducted further analysis of the 242 police accounts now believed to have been amended. In this context, it has completed more than 160 interviews and these interviews continue. Alongside the IPCC investigation, the police investigation—Operation Resolve—has, first, worked to the coroner’s priorities and timetable, meeting all the deadlines set by him; secondly, has worked in parallel on other aspects of the criminal investigation that are complementary to the work being done for the coroner; thirdly, has obtained access to the best quality audio-visual material and carried out extensive analysis and, in doing so, has drawn on advances in digital imagery and forensic technology not available to previous investigative teams; and fourthly, has now completed more than 1,000 interviews of witnesses.
The work being done by Operation Resolve is aimed at providing the fullest possible picture of what happened at Hillsborough, both to ensure that the inquest is able to answer the questions that the bereaved families still have and in support of the criminal investigation.
As Jon Stoddart has said,
“If we find there were health and safety breaches or evidence of wilful neglect, we will seek to ensure the appropriate action is taken against those responsible. If we find that, with the benefit of hindsight, there are lessons to be learned, we will endeavour to ensure that they are addressed. And if we find evidence of criminal behaviour, including manslaughter through neglect, we will seek to lay charges and put people and organisations before the courts.”
As I have said, this new phase of work on Hillsborough began with the publication of the independent panel’s report. One particularly important aspect of the way in which the panel approached its work was its consultation with the bereaved families and I was keen to learn from and build on that dialogue. So I was pleased when Bishop James Jones agreed to act as my adviser on Hillsborough, bringing with him his knowledge and experience from his time as chair of the independent panel.
Operation Resolve and the IPCC have invested significant effort engaging with families, including by offering the opportunity for families to visit their offices in Warrington. “Family forums”, proposed by Bishop James Jones and building on work done by the IPCC, the Crown Prosecution Service and Operation Resolve, are now taking place regularly. The forums provide a regular and structured opportunity for bereaved families to have face-to-face discussions with those conducting and advising the investigations, and they provide an important opportunity for the families to probe and ask questions.
Bishop James Jones, in recent conversations with me, has described the families’ position as being “encouraged” but not “persuaded.” Mr Speaker, this is a sentiment I can understand. As we approach the 25th anniversary of the tragedy, it is the sentiment that underlies my continuing commitment to do everything I can to ensure that the process of disclosing the truth, started by the panel, is followed by the process of justice.
I commend this statement to the House.
Mr Speaker
Order. Just before I call the shadow Home Secretary and then other colleagues, it might be helpful if I emphasised to the House that the special inquest has not yet formally opened. I think there have been pre-hearings, but the hearing itself has not opened. Therefore, the matter is not sub judice. However, colleagues might think it wise to exercise a degree of restraint and to weigh their words carefully if they seek to express opinions on matters that plainly fall to be determined by the inquest. That is not in any sense intended to chill; it is simply to make the point to colleagues, who will exercise their own judgment as to how to proceed in this matter.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
I thank the Home Secretary for her statement and welcome the points she has made updating the House on the progress made in getting justice for the families of the 96 people who lost their lives at Hillsborough.
This year we approach 25 years since that dreadful day. I pay tribute, alongside the Home Secretary, to the Hillsborough Family Support Group, the Hillsborough Justice Campaign and Hope for Hillsborough, which have shown such determination in their campaign for their loved ones. None of us should underestimate the strength they have shown and what they have endured over the last quarter of a century, or how difficult it is still for them as the inquest approaches—something that no family would ever want to go through. We should show them our respect and our support in their pursuit of justice.
In October 2012, when the Home Secretary last addressed the House on the disaster, we all welcomed the independent panel report and paid tribute to the panel, led by Bishop James Jones. I join the Home Secretary in paying tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) and the work he did to establish it, as well as my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram), who I know spoke to her about giving today’s statement, my hon. Friends the Members for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle) and for Halton (Derek Twigg), and colleagues in all parts of the House who continue to support their constituents in the pursuit of justice.
The list of failures exposed by the panel at that time was extensive, shocking and deeply distressing—the failure to improve the safety of the ground in the years before Hillsborough; the holding of the game at a ground without a safety certificate just four years after the Bradford fire; the failure to organise crowd safety; the failure to close the tunnel; the failure to help fans speedily; and also the failure to be honest about what happened and to investigate, and the falsehoods that were perpetuated afterwards. This House came together to make clear our view that it was a betrayal of victims and their families.
Since the panel’s report, I welcome the overturning of the original coroner’s verdict, at the instigation of the Attorney-General, and the plans to reopen the inquest next month. I welcome the Home Secretary’s agreement to our proposal for more powers for the IPCC and her decision to provide more resources for such a substantial investigation. I welcome the work by the Stoddart and IPCC inquiries and the substantial investigations that are under way. She is right to highlight the importance of support, including information and legal support for the families, but let me ask her some further questions about developments.
The Home Secretary will obviously know the importance of the inquest to everyone and the concern at how long everything takes. Can she assure the House, first, that the inquest will start on 31 March and that every effort is being made to ensure that all evidence and papers are in place, and that there are no further delays? Secondly, will she tell the House what more she is doing to ensure that every police force organisation and agency provides full disclosure to the Stoddart investigation and the IPCC, and does not simply wait to be asked for information? She will know the distress it has already caused to find that important and shocking information was never revealed to the independent panel—the pocket books she referred to—but also that far more police and witness statements were altered.
We have heard, for example, the disturbing testimony of one witness, who was a teenage student at the time. He told the BBC’s “Newsnight” programme that he was threatened with prosecution for complaining about failings by South Yorkshire police, saying:
“I’m a 19-year-old boy, three weeks out of Hillsborough, traumatised, and he’s threatening me that he’s going to put together a case for wasting police time because he didn’t like my evidence”.
I know that the Home Secretary would agree with me that it is a matter of deep concern that full information was not given to the panel at the time and would welcome the work done by the investigations to get more evidence since, but will she give a direction to all forces to provide all information related to the Hillsborough disaster to the two investigations?
The Home Secretary will also be aware of concern among the families about surveillance operations against families in the aftermath of the tragedy. I understand that the IPCC is not currently investigating those claims or concerns. Will the Home Secretary commit today to ordering the release of any material on surveillance, including intercept surveillance, of Hillsborough families in the aftermath of the disaster to the IPCC?
Thirdly, will she update us on the progress that has been made on the wider investigations that go beyond the inquest and on decisions on prosecutions? Clearly, the main focus of the investigations has been preparing information for the inquest, but what progress has been made in investigating criminal wrongdoing? According to what timetable does she believe files will be passed to the Crown Prosecution Service from the IPCC and the Stoddart investigation?
Finally, will the Home Secretary reassure us that the IPCC will have the resources it needs and that she will ensure that the inquiries work effectively alongside each other? She will know that concerns have previously been raised about co-ordination between the inquiries. Will she keep that under review to ensure that the investigations are fully co-ordinated?
The last quarter century has been immensely difficult for the families of the 96, and they know that the coming months will be very hard, too. The House should pay tribute to them and to their faith and determination over a quarter of a century, as well as to those who have stood by them, particularly the people of Liverpool. We should strain every sinew to ensure that they get justice now.
Mrs May
I thank the right hon. Lady for her comments and echo her point about how difficult it will be for the families when the inquest starts to have to relive the tragedy yet again. None of us can fully appreciate how difficult and traumatic that will be for the families and our thoughts are with them at this difficult time.
As for the date of the inquest, as I said in my statement, Lord Justice Goldring has said that the fresh inquest will start on 31 March. That is obviously a matter for him and not for me as Home Secretary, but I am sure from the way he has conducted matters so far that he will recognise the significance of the inquest over which he will preside and the importance of ensuring that it goes ahead according to an appropriate timetable.
The right hon. Lady asked about disclosure, what information is available to the two investigations and what information was not made available to the panel. The panel saw some 450,000 documents from more than 80 organisations, so it did an extremely good job and, having seen all that evidence, it was able to come up with its shocking results about what had happened at Hillsborough. However, everybody has been perhaps not surprised but disappointed that further documents have emerged as a result of the two investigations, particularly the police pocket notebooks and other such documents. I have written to both Dame Anne Owers, as chairman of the IPCC, and Jon Stoddart—they are in charge of the investigations and it is up to them to amass the information they need—to ask whether they were having any problems getting material and whether it would be helpful for me to write to the chief constables of all police forces to ask them to look for any material that they might have.
The right hon. Lady asked about possible undercover operations and although no formal complaint or allegation has been made to the IPCC, it is aware of the concerns and is considering how best to address them. It is reviewing the material on Hillsborough so if it discovers any evidence in its investigation that suggests that surveillance such as that which has been suggested took place it will pursue that evidence.
I recognise, particularly given what has happened over the past 25 years, that everybody is keen to ensure that there should be no sense that the timetable is not be followed appropriately. I discussed the matter with Operation Resolve and the IPCC when I was in Warrington. They are keen to ensure that at every stage they do everything properly so that there can be no opportunity to challenge their results. We would all agree that that is appropriate, but it takes time to do that. I can assure the right hon. Lady that I am making resources available to the IPCC and we talk to it and Operation Resolve regularly about what is necessary.
I was pleased to see—I am going to use the term appropriate again—the appropriate level of co-ordination between the two investigations. They are considering separate issues, although of course the IPCC is managing part of the Operation Resolve investigation, and they are working together in a manner that is fit and proper, ensuring that everything that is being done is being done in a way that will ensure that people have confidence in the results when they come out, whether they result in criminal charges or other findings.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
Will the Home Secretary assure us that any questions that the relatives have can be asked and answered? What level of co-operation is she receiving from retired police officers?
Mrs May
There is indeed a level of co-operation from retired police officers. Not everybody whom the IPCC has wished to interview has been willing to come forward for interview, but we are talking about people who are being interviewed as witnesses. The fact that an officer is retired would have no relevance if somebody were to be found to be suspected of criminal activity. The investigation would of course proceed as appropriate.
As for the families and their access to information, there are two ways in which families can ask questions. First, they can go to Warrington and meet members of the investigation teams and talk to them. When I was in Warrington, I was taken through the sort of information that the investigators could provide to the family of a particular individual. Families rightly have questions. One benefit for those involved in the investigations when families go in to talk to them is that they can identify any questions that the families might ask that might not be the first to come to mind for the investigators. The forums are also important, as they provide families with the opportunity to raise questions face to face. As I have said, they are ably chaired and managed by Bishop James Jones.
Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)
I welcome the Home Secretary’s statement and express my continued admiration for how she is leading this process. People might think of the families’ battle as being won, but in truth only now are they entering the most difficult period of all. Parents such as my constituent, Delia Brown, are only now finding out basic details about what happened to their sons and daughters between 3.15 and 4 o’clock. With that in mind, does the Home Secretary share my disgust and disbelief that South Yorkshire police have today, using public money, rerun slurs about alcohol that were dismissed by Lord Justice Taylor in 1989 and by the Hillsborough Independent Panel in 2012?
Mrs May
The right hon. Gentleman’s comments about the families are well made. This is a very difficult time and, as he says, it is only now that some families are in any sense able to fill in the picture of what happened to their loved ones. I am concerned by his reference to South Yorkshire police and would be grateful if he and I could have a further discussion about that matter. I am certainly prepared to look into it.
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)
I join the tributes to the Opposition MPs who have led the persistent campaigns for the families. Sadly, in the 1980s I was involved in two sets of crushings. The first was at an archbishop’s funeral, when 14 people died around me. The other was at the Heysel stadium, where, within 200 feet of me, 39 people died. As well as finding out what went wrong at Hillsborough and after Hillsborough, which I hope the inquest will achieve, we ought to pay tribute to the Police Federation for being the first to call for the safety of grounds from the 1930s through to the 1970s. May I say to my right hon. Friend that perimeter safety and crowd safety could be another tribute to those who sadly lost their lives?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend makes an important point. We should all be constantly aware of the need to ensure safety at stadiums when large numbers of people are at football matches and other events. It is extremely important that we learn the lessons from the tragedies from the past to ensure the safety of those who attend such events in the future.
Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
I am grateful to the Home Secretary for agreeing to update the House today. In her statement, she said that in 2012 the Prime Minister apologised for a double injustice, yet now we learn that Hillsborough may have been a treble injustice. Ever since the disaster, the families of the 96 have expressed concerns that their phones may have been hacked and electronic communications monitored. First, families lost loved ones, then they were criminalised, and now it seems that they may even have been shadowed by terrorists. I have one simple question, so that the right hon. Lady can put the families’ minds at rest. Will she confirm unequivocally that at no stage since the disaster were the families subjected to surveillance by the police or security services of this country?
Mrs May
I fully appreciate the point that the hon. Gentleman makes about the families’ concerns, but he will recognise, as I am sure his right hon. and hon. Friends will too, that we do not identify those who may or may not have been subject to interception in any form. I know that this is difficult and I know that some would prefer a somewhat different answer, but it has always been the case that the police do not confirm or deny whether an individual has been subject to interception. There are two avenues that I would refer to in relation to the hon. Gentleman’s question. The first is that, as I said in response to the shadow Home Secretary, the IPCC is aware of these concerns and is considering how best to address them. If it does find any evidence during its investigation that suggests that surveillance has taken place, it will pursue it. It is also available to those who feel that they have been subject to unlawful interception by the authorities, to refer that to the Investigatory Powers Tribunal, which provides an independent forum for investigating complaints.
Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)
As a special constable, I can vouch for the fact that most police officers are hard-working and honest, but will my right hon. Friend confirm that if there is evidence of any wrongdoing by any individual police officers, they will face the full force of the law?
Mrs May
I can assure my hon. Friend that the purpose of the work that is being undertaken is to ensure that we can provide justice for the families. Jon Stoddart has made it absolutely clear that at whatever level they find that errors have been made, be they in relation to health and safety or criminal activity, appropriate action will be taken. If it is criminal activity, people will be charged and prosecutions will be brought.
Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)
The tenacity of the bereaved families has led to the exposure of organised deceit following the Hillsborough disaster and to where we are today with a new inquest and a major inquiry. How will the Home Secretary ensure that she maintains the trust of those bereaved families, and will she denounce the outrageous slur that Bishop Jones’ independent panel might have had its own agenda?
Mrs May
I am very happy to reject completely the suggestion that Bishop James Jones’ panel had its own agenda. It did an extremely good job. It identified a significant number of documents, and some are still coming forward. It did the first important task, which was to reveal to all of us the validity of the comments and claims made by the families over the years, who had not been believed and had not been listened to. The panel showed that the families were right and that errors and potential criminal activity needed to be investigated. The work of the independent panel was crucial. It was essential in enabling what is now happening in terms of trying to ensure that we get justice for the families. Had it not been for the independent panel’s inquiry and the results that it had, we would not be in the position that we are in today with two investigations.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
I thank my right hon. Friend for the update to the House today. Many people will be surprised to learn about the number of police notebooks that have suddenly become available. I am sure that the Police (Complaints and Conduct) Act 2012 has facilitated some of the investigation, but does she agree that there is a moral imperative for the Police Federation to ensure that all serving and former police officers co-operate fully with the investigation?
Mrs May
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. Most people will be surprised to know that police officers retain their police notebooks in the first place, and secondly that in this instance they kept them and did not reveal them to the panel. It is good that around 2,500 notebooks have now been made available to the investigators. I encourage anybody who has any information relating to Hillsborough—any documents, any files, anything—to come forward with that. I also support my hon. Friend’s suggestion that the Police Federation encourages all police officers and former police officers, who may have information relevant to these investigations, to make that information available.
Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab)
I think that I speak on behalf of all my colleagues from Sheffield and the people of Sheffield when I commend the Home Secretary for both her statement and its delivery, and the work that she has been doing. I endorse the tribute paid by the Home Secretary and the shadow Home Secretary to the families and the concern that they expressed for them as we approach the 25th anniversary.
Finding the information in the form of the handbooks that have just been discovered will have shocked all of us once again, as will the information that my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) mentioned. Those of us who are concerned to ensure that successor bodies are both open and transparent, and to ensure that we get to the truth and hold to account those who were responsible 25 years ago, should co-operate in any way possible. I would be prepared to join my right hon. Friend and the Home Secretary in dealing with any allegations that are made about South Yorkshire police or any other local body that may at this point in time be acting inappropriately.
Mrs May
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his comments and for his offer. As he says, it is extremely important that all those who can encourage others to act appropriately, do so, and are willing to challenge those who are not acting appropriately.
If I may, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) asked another question, which I did not answer, about how I could maintain the trust of the families. I see the families from time to time, and as I have explained, Bishop James Jones is my adviser on the matter and he is seeing the families through the forums. I have made it clear both to Bishop Jones and to the families that if they have any concerns at all they should feel free to raise them directly with me and I will look into them.
Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con)
I am grateful to the Home Secretary for her update today and the work that she is doing on this issue. I pay tribute to the strength of the families who have been pursuing justice through this dreadful almost 25 years. Will the Home Secretary clarify whether she believes that criminal prosecutions will take place and whether she believes that criminal prosecutions must take place to provide justice for those families?
Mrs May
I recognise my hon. Friend’s concern around this issue. It is not my place to say whether a criminal prosecution will take place. The investigation takes place and the Crown Prosecution Service will independently determine whether prosecutions are appropriate. What I can say is that all those involved in the investigation are absolutely clear that where they find criminal activity, they will do their best to ensure that that is pursued, because everybody wants justice for the families.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
I also welcome the Home Secretary’s statement and thank her for updating the House in the way that she has. May I take her back to the questions of the hon. Members for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) and for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey)? The right hon. Lady is right that we should encourage people to co-operate, but I understand that 13 police officers have refused to be interviewed by the IPCC and two have declined to respond to its letters. She may have better figures. We do not just need encouragement; we need compulsion. They need to be made to co-operate so that we get to the truth.
Mrs May
The right hon. Gentleman is right: for the purposes of the IPCC investigation, 13 of the 242 officers whose statements have been amended have declined to be interviewed. Those who are being regarded as witnesses are not required to be interviewed at this stage, and there are those who have said that they do not believe that they have anything to add to the information that has been available in the past. I would therefore suggest a degree of caution in respect of how those who are not taking up the request for an interview are portrayed. As I have said, if the IPCC identifies someone who is potentially suspected of a criminal offence, that will not be an impediment, and the IPCC will act accordingly.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
I was on the Lepping lane terraces at the FA cup semi-final of 1981. Around me, several spectators were crushed, and had to be treated by the medics. That was eight years before the Hillsborough tragedy. Can my right hon. Friend update the House on what lessons were learnt from previous FA cup semi-finals at Hillsborough, and will she arrange for that information to be published so that we can see what planning took place before the tragedy?
Mrs May
One of the things that emerged from the independent panel’s inquiry was that, sadly, there were apparently indications of problems relating to the ground, but not all the necessary lessons had been learnt from previous experience. That is why it is so important—as one of my hon. Friends said earlier—that in the event of an incident of any scale, but particularly an incident of the scale of the Hillsborough tragedy, lessons are learnt and people look at what went wrong. Part of the current process involves consideration of whether there was any neglect in relation to the ground and the operations that took place there. Sadly, as I have said, it appears that there were indications of problems, but lessons were not learnt before this particular football game.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
Let me first record my appreciation of the work that the Home Secretary has been doing, and also my admiration for the families’ continuing and amazing drive to seek justice.
I understand that up to nine police forces are currently being contacted, but I want to concentrate on the Cheshire force and its former chief constable, Mervyn Jones. In a letter that I received from the IPCC, I was told:
“Records were found that indicated that 22 boxes of documents were recovered by South Yorkshire police on the 22nd of January 1998. These records indicated they were copy documents taken by Mervyn Jones.”
The documents had been kept in the armoury of Cheshire constabulary.
As the Home Secretary is aware, a number of those documents were policy files, and were rather important, because Mervyn Jones led the west midlands inquiry. He took them away with him after leaving the force. I found out today that they contain references to files that have since been deleted from the HOLMES computer system, which stores information about major incidents. May I ask the Home Secretary what lessons can be learnt from that? How can it can be ensured that in the event of any future major incident—or, God forbid, any future disaster—it will not be possible for a chief constable, or an assistant chief constable, to take files away rather than storing them at a central point?
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman has raised a very important point. As he presumably knows—because it has been in touch with him about this particular individual—the IPCC is aware of the issue, has identified Mervyn Jones as a person who is of interest to it, and is planning to interview him.
This issue has raised questions in my mind about the ability of police officers to retain documents that have been relevant to them in a particular role, and to take those documents away with them as if they were personal possessions. That has been highlighted not just in relation to the question of the pocket notebooks, but, on a slightly larger scale, in relation to the case of one person, Mervyn Jones, and I think that we need to look into it further.
John Pugh (Southport) (LD)
I genuinely congratulate the Home Secretary on the thoroughness of her approach, but may I ask how many police notebooks that may prove relevant later were not recovered?
Mrs May
About 2,500 police notebooks have now been supplied to those conducting the investigations. I would encourage any officer out there who may have a notebook that is relevant and who has still not provided it to do so, because I think it important for all the notebooks to be made available.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
I pay tribute to the courage and bravery shown by all those affected by the Hillsborough disaster over the past 25 years, and especially in recent months.
May I ask the Home Secretary again about the police pocket notebooks? She has said that about 2,500 of them were not made available to those conducting earlier investigations. Does she know, or has she asked, why they were not made available?
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
I thank my right hon. Friend for her statement, and for her work on this most sensitive and troubling of issues. I also pay tribute to the Hillsborough families for their steadfast campaigning. They are about to enter a very difficult phase in the process.
I make no apology for returning to the issue—the shocking issue—of the disclosure of 2,500 police notebooks. May I ask two questions? First, the IPCC now has those notebooks, but will those involved in Operation Resolve have copies of them? Secondly, will my right hon. Friend ensure that there is a thorough review of the storage of police notebooks, given that the issue has implications for all historical investigations, criminal and civil?
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for reiterating the point of concern about the police pocket notebooks. Although the two investigations are concerned with slightly different aspects of the Hillsborough tragedy, it has been made clear that information that is relevant to both should be available to both.
As for my hon. Friend’s wider question, as I said earlier to the hon. Member for Halton (Derek Twigg), it is important for us to look at the issue of documents that are acquired by police officers in relation to investigations or to incidents that they attend and are required in the course of their duty, but which, in the cases that we are discussing, were treated as if they were personal possessions that officers could take home and deal with as they wished. That is an issue to which I shall want to return.
Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)
I, too, thank the Home Secretary both for her statement and for the way in which she continues to handle this most important issue. Does she agree that one of the truly alarming things that we have discovered in the recent past is the extent to which there was what could almost be described as an organised stereotyping distortion of what had taken place, and the extent of the prejudice against those who attended the game at Hillsborough—both those who lost their lives and those who survived? Does she agree that one legacy that we should really want is the knowledge that, in any future situations of this kind, such prejudices will be continually challenged and rooted out? The only guarantee that we can have that something like this will not happen again is a guarantee that those attitudes will be utterly condemned, and will become a thing of the past.
Mrs May
The right hon. Gentleman has made a very important point. As I said earlier, when the Prime Minister made his own statement in 2012, he said that the second injustice that had taken place was the treatment that the families had received at the hands of the press. However, the injustice was wider than that: it did not just involve the press.
The press set out their particular portrait of what had happened, and of the families involved, but a collective view was then taken by society as a whole. With very few—but notable and honourable—exceptions, people had that collective belief, and felt that it was not necessary to take the matter further. Like others, I pay tribute not just to the families who continued the fight, but to the Members of Parliament and others who consistently challenged that view and said that it was not right to let the issue lie. The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: while I hope that we never see an incident of this sort again, it is important for those who try to set a public perception on such issues to be challenged.
Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
On the question of the police notebooks, will the Home Secretary find out—it will be difficult, but not impossible in this computer age—how many police notebooks relating to the Hillsborough inquiry were used by the same police officers who in the 1984 miners strike compiled notebooks and statements all saying the same thing in the first few sentences?
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
May I add my praise for the families, whose tenacity and courage are an example to us all? I know from speaking to many of my constituents how difficult this is for them. What plans does the Home Secretary have to offer counselling and additional support to the friends and families of the victims, who are going to relive the trauma of 1989 during the impending inquests?
Mrs May
The hon. Lady makes an important point; this is going to be a very difficult time for the families. Additional consultation space will be provided for them so that they can have meetings with their legal teams, and every effort is being made to ensure that, in every practical sense, attendance at the inquests is made as easy as possible for them. We recognise that support of the kind she describes needs to be provided to those involved, and the Department of Health, the Ministry of Justice and the coroner are working together to ensure that that is made available.
Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op)
I should like to echo other Members in thanking the Home Secretary for her statement and for paying tribute to the families, campaigners and Members of the House for their work on this matter over the past 25 years. May I take the Home Secretary back to the issue of Lord Justice Goldring’s deadline of 31 March for fresh inquests? Understandably, she has said that that is a matter for him, but does she understand that it is important for the families that everything that can possibly be done is being done to ensure that that deadline is met?
Mrs May
I fully accept the hon. Gentleman’s point. I know that the investigatory teams are aware of the importance of meeting Lord Justice Goldring’s timetable in relation to the support they are giving him as coroner. Indeed, up to now they have met all his deadlines. They are clear that, in order for him to do his job, any requests put to them should be dealt with in the timetable that he has set.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
The Home Secretary has made a welcome commitment to look again at the issue of the police withholding evidence. Does she not agree, however, that the fact that the notebooks, and other alarming acts, have only just been uncovered, despite all the previous investigations over many years, shows that the current system of police accountability and scrutiny is not fit for purpose, despite having been strengthened? She must know that she would get support from right across the House if she were to announce a radical overhaul of the system.
Mrs May
I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s concern about this matter, but the Government have already acted in a number of ways in relation to this question. We have enhanced the powers of the IPCC to deal with these issues, and we will be giving it more resources to enable it to investigate all serious and sensitive complaints against the police itself, rather than passing them back to police forces. That is an important change. Also, I have already announced to the House a number of steps that are being taken in relation to the wider question of police integrity. The findings of the Hillsborough panel have raised a very real question in people’s minds about police integrity, and I welcome the steps by the College of Policing to introduce a code of ethics. A number of steps are being taken to improve that issue, so that people will feel that they can have full confidence in the police. The vast majority of police officers work day in, day out for our protection and to cut crime, and they work honestly and with integrity. However, when there are those who do not, it taints the picture that people have of the others. It is our duty to encourage and enhance people’s confidence in their police.
Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
The Home Secretary has referred in previous answers to the police notebooks being kept by individual officers. Will she clarify whether all the 2,500 notebooks were recovered from individual officers, or whether some of them were collectively stored by the police and deliberately withheld from previous investigations?
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
A number of police forces, including South Yorkshire, have failed to provide evidence about Hillsborough. Does the Home Secretary think that that is due to a lack of resources or does she think that there is a worrying, ongoing reluctance to get to the truth?
Mrs May
It is extremely unfortunate that, at various stages, South Yorkshire police did not provide all the evidence, but I was pleased that they were willing to respond to and provide information to the independent panel. It is in everyone’s interests that we should be able to get to the full truth and to see justice done.
John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)
Perhaps the biggest risk to safety in football stadiums today is that posed by a panic mass evacuation, following a bomb scare, for example, or a terrorist incident. Will the Home Secretary confirm that there is no requirement on any stadium to have a test mass evacuation using real people, that no such tests have been carried out and that every football stadium in the country relies on computer simulations to determine whether its mass evacuation plans will actually work?
Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)
I am sure the Home Secretary will recall that when we debated these issues in the House some time ago, the overwhelming sentiment on both sides of the House was that there was a need for full transparency and disclosure, not just as a prerequisite for justice but as a first step towards resolution. In the light of that, may I return to the question of the 13 retired police officers who have refused to comply with the IPCC’s requests for interviews? Does she agree that, rather than it being a matter for those officers to decide, before any interviews take place, that they have nothing to add, the IPCC should be allowed to discover whether that is the case during the process of such interviews?
Mrs May
As I said in response to earlier questions, those who have refused to be interviewed so far have been regarded as witnesses, which means that there is no requirement for them to take part in an interview at this stage. I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point about who should be the judge of whether they have anything to add to the investigation, but as I have said, they are being regarded as witnesses and are therefore not required to be interviewed.
Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
I hope that this question will not be regarded as trivial, but at a meeting I attended recently with my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis), it was suggested that the facilities for the families at the inquests—toilets, tea and coffee-making facilities, catering and comfortable seating, for example—were not quite as good as they should be. Will the Home Secretary check that they are in fact up to scratch, because it is essential that those families should be made to feel as welcome and as comfortable as possible at the inquests?
Mrs May
The hon. Lady makes a valid point. As I said earlier, it is my understanding that every effort is being made to ensure that the facilities are appropriate for the families, and that it will be as easy as possible for them to attend. She will have noted that the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), is in his place. He will have heard her comments, and I am sure that he will take them away to the Ministry of Justice.
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
I am sure the Home Secretary is aware that the families have asked for one person to be put in charge of the entire investigation so that they can co-ordinate all the various investigations that are going on. Will she consider doing that?
Mrs May
I have had a number of discussions with representatives of the families about this matter and what the most appropriate structure is to have in place. I believe that we do have the right structure at the moment, because the two investigations are looking at different aspects of this tragedy. It is of course important that there is co-ordination between them, and as I said earlier, the IPCC is managing part of the Operation Resolve investigation. What I have seen from visiting Warrington is that both investigations are conscious of not only those areas where it is necessary for them to co-ordinate, but those areas where it is necessary for them to recognise the difference in their investigation.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
I acknowledge the worthy statement of the Home Secretary on the double injustice, but why should the ethic of apology and accountability not extend to the third possible level of injustice—the hostile surveillance of victims’ families? What standing policy says that evidence in that regard can continue to be withheld? Surely that is what would tell us how far and how high this syndicate of deceit and vilification actually reached. Before the Home Secretary tells me, as she told my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram), that families can go to the IPT, will she tell us what the IPT’s record is of upholding complaints or ever giving a reason?
Mrs May
I will disappoint the hon. Gentleman, in that I will not be giving a different answer to the one I gave earlier. As I indicated, the IPCC is aware of this issue and is considering how best to address it. If it finds evidence of surveillance that has taken place, it will deal with that as appropriate.
Points of Order
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Home Secretary, in answer to my earlier question, said that it would not be the practice of the police to confirm whether or not surveillance had taken place. Chief Constable Mick Creedon did provide such information to the Select Committee on Home Affairs when allegations were raised about surveillance of the Lawrence family. May I therefore ask her, given the helpful way in which she has responded to all the comments on the statement today, to look further at the points that were made by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram)?
Mr Speaker
It is open to the Home Secretary to respond to that point of order if she wishes to do so.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
If I may, Mr Speaker, I will provide clarification. I apologise if my language was loosely used earlier, as it should not have been. It is the accepted policy that we do not deny or confirm whether somebody has been subject to interception, which I understood was potentially part of the issue raised by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram), but I have noted the concern that has been raised in this House and I will take that matter away.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You were very helpful at the start of this statement in explaining the need not to prejudice the investigation or the inquest next month, when the legal proceedings start properly. Could you expand on that and provide further information? My concern is that the information I am being given and that some of my colleagues are being given suggests that this situation can only get worse: people thought it was bad enough with the report, but it will only worsen as information comes out. We do not want to prejudice those legal proceedings, but at the same time there may be a need for parliamentary scrutiny of or debate on issues that appear in and come out of the investigations and proceedings. Would it be possible for you to issue some clearer guidance—it could be written if you think that is appropriate—on what MPs can and cannot raise in the House?
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order and for his indication to me a few moments ago of his intention to raise it. The straightforward position is that once the inquest has formally opened, the matters of which it treats are then sub judice. In those circumstances, the Chair does have discretion to waive the sub judice rule, though it has to be said that no such judgment would be made lightly, for I have to be conscious of and respectful towards the resolution relating to sub judice that the House has itself passed. I am sorry if my reply today is not as informative as the hon. Gentleman would wish. However, I will keep abreast of events and I am well aware of the sensitive balance of considerations here as between the proper concern of Members with freedom of speech, on the one hand, and the crucial imperative of not prejudicing the conduct of the inquest, on the other. I hope that the hon. Gentleman and others will feel that I am very conscious of those balancing considerations and will attend to them keenly. If, at any stage, an hon. Member wishes to approach me for guidance as to the appropriateness or otherwise of what he or she might be minded to say, I would certainly always, guided by the Clerks, attempt to be helpful to Members.
Perhaps we can leave it there for today. It is always nice to be smiled at by the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner), who seems to be in a relatively cheery mood, whether with me, with the hon. Member for Blyth Valley (Mr Campbell) or with the House I do not know.
Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
You had better not ask me what I was saying!
Mr Speaker
I am not sure how grateful I am to the hon. Gentleman for what he has just said, but I will take his advice. If there are no further points of order, we come now to the ten-minute rule motion, for which the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) has been patiently waiting.
Housing Benefit and Universal Credit in the Social Housing Sector (Regular Payments)
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
13:46 - The House divided: - Ayes: 226 / Noes: 1 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to establish the right of persons in receipt of housing benefit and universal credit in the social housing sector to receive said benefits at regular intervals; to provide that such persons should not be financially penalised in relation to the number of bedrooms in a residence; and for connected purposes.
I would hope that my Bill would receive support from Members in all parties. It is an olive branch for those who, perhaps wrongly, underestimated the real consequences of walking through the Government Lobby to support the introduction of the bedroom tax. Perhaps I am being too generous in saying that, but the alternative—that those who supported the introduction of the bedroom tax knew fully of the dire consequences it would have on those affected—quite frankly beggars belief. Make no mistake about it, the full and sole intention of this Bill is to sweep away the dreaded bedroom tax. It seeks to restore justice for up to 660,000 people—some of our country’s most vulnerable citizens, two thirds of whom are disabled. They have been inhumanely let down by the Government's reforms to housing benefit in the social sector. The tax has caused heartache and devastation to thousands of residents up and down this country. It is a tax whose forced implementation has put extreme pressure on councils, housing associations and social landlords. It is a tax that has put extreme pressure on the ordinary working people who are forced to deal with those unable to move and those unable to pay.
On the introduction of the tax, Ministers argued that the changes would encourage people to downsize to smaller properties and, in doing so, help to cut the £23 billion annual bill for housing benefit; would free up living space for overcrowded families; and would encourage people to get jobs. Significantly, it has achieved none of those objectives. At the same time, the Department for Work and Pensions has trumpeted the measure as, “returning fairness to housing benefit.” The words “fairness” and “bedroom tax” should not be uttered in the same sentence.
This tax is a problem in each and every constituency up and down the country; this is not simply a problem in Labour-dominated authorities. I was contacted only last week by a distraught resident from the Tory shires who is hoping that my Bill will be successful, because he, a disabled man, is living in a three-bedroom property and has just received an eviction notice for bedroom tax arrears. He is not alone. The bedroom tax sufferers in Liberal Democrat and Tory constituencies number around 250,000. Perhaps we should ask them whether they think this abominable tax has restored fairness to housing benefit.
My Bill seeks to restore fairness and to end the misery that the bedroom tax has caused. There are hundreds if not thousands of appalling examples of suffering. There was the mother of two who suffered a crippling illness. She committed suicide after realising that she could not pay the bedroom tax. Her family received correspondence later saying that she should have been exempt from paying the tax.
A widow, aged 59, pleaded with the Prime Minister not to force her to move. Her husband’s ashes had been buried in the garden under the rose bushes that she had been given by her friends at the funeral. She did not have a disability or health problems, but this was a family home for goodness’ sake, and that means something. A home is where people bring up their children and cry tears of joy. In this case, there were many tears of sadness when the husband unfortunately passed away.
This next case is hard to comprehend; it really is difficult to try to get to grips with. The family of the 1999 child of courage who spent years battling multiple cancers is suffering at the hands of this horrible reform. These people are not living a life of luxury in palatial properties; they are living in a place in which they feel safe and which they call home. It is time to listen. I am sure that most fair-minded individuals would agree that a bedroom is not spare when carers sleep in it, when couples use it because one of them has health problems and they cannot share a bed, or when it houses vital medical equipment, yet this indiscriminate tax deems it so.
The reality is that yet another measure introduced by this Government is in total and utter chaos. It lies in tatters, with the victims left to pick up the pieces. As thousands suffer, there is a real risk that the bedroom tax will end up costing more than it saves. The National Housing Federation has said that the savings claimed by the Government are “highly questionable”, partly because those who are forced to move to the private rented sector will end up costing more in housing benefit.
Surely, as politicians and members of the general public, we are entitled to question the motives behind the introduction of the bedroom tax. The tax does not deal with the problem of under-occupation. In fact, the Government’s costings on the yield raised from the bedroom tax explicitly assume that people will not move into smaller properties. There are simply not enough smaller properties for people to move into.
Some 180,000 households were deemed to be under-occupying two-bedroom homes, yet only 85,000 one-bedroom homes became available during the whole of 2012. The savings projections of the Department for Work and Pensions assume that not one of the 660,000 households affected would respond to the policy by moving to a smaller home. Put simply, this is yet another example of the Government balancing the books on the backs of the disabled and the vulnerable. The tax must be scrapped now.
Housing associations say that tens of millions of pounds are likely to be lost through the build-up of arrears. Reports this morning estimate that 144,000 people have fallen behind with their rents since the introduction of the bedroom tax and that 14% have received eviction notices. Was that really meant to happen? Was this eviction of the poor really the plan of the Government?
In October, research by the University of York, which was based on data by the housing associations that have tenants affected by the bedroom tax, suggested that the policy could save up to 39% less than the DWP had predicted. In the past week, it has emerged that more than half of the £500 million that the Government claim will be saved by the hated tax will be spent on re-housing disabled people. These are vulnerable people who already live in properties that have been adapted for their needs and who have built up local support networks with their friends, family and neighbours. The future for them lies in communities that are unknown and foreign to them. They have been cast out like the proverbial dog in the night.
In the past months, it has emerged that a loophole in policy exempts thousands of people. Instead of looking at that loophole—[Interruption.] It is suggested that that loophole has been closed. As Ministers scramble to mop up the mistakes, another challenge to the hated tax has arisen. A judge has overturned the tax in the case of a Rochdale man who argued that one of his bedrooms was used as a dining room. The appeal was upheld on the basis that the dictionary definition of a bedroom is a room that contains a bed that is used for sleeping in. An avalanche of appeals is on its way.
I am proud to see that, only last week, the Scottish Labour party shamed the Scottish National party into abolishing the bedroom tax. I must put it on the record that I am also proud that one of the first acts of a future Labour Government will be to end this full frontal attack on the vulnerable. However, we cannot afford to wait until the general election of 2015. I urge the supporters of this tax to think again. The question is this: are they happy to see the misery and social disruption of the vulnerable and disabled?
I began this speech by expressing the view that those who voted in favour of introducing this dreaded bedroom tax may have underestimated the human suffering that it would cause. That is no longer in any doubt, so I urge them all to do the honourable thing and support my Bill.
Question put (Standing Order No. 23).
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not know whether you noticed, because you are blind in some of these matters—deliberately so—but the Tory Whips were standing outside the Chamber during the Division and persuading Conservative Members not to vote, so we on the Opposition side of the House hope that that means that they have changed their minds and will get rid of the bedroom tax as soon as possible. If they will not, we will.
My point of order relates to the bedroom tax. Mr Speaker, you will recall that earlier this year, when asked how many people had been affected by the loophole in the bedroom tax legislation, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, a Member of this House, said that the number was between 3,000 and 5,000. In a written answer, the Minister of State, the hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey), also a Member of this House, said that she did not know how many had been affected. Lord Freud, a Minister in another place, said that it was an insignificant number. Today, however, he told the Work and Pensions Committee of this House that the number was 5,000. We have been doing their work for them, and from freedom of information requests to local authorities in England, Wales and Scotland, we already know, from just the third that replied, of 16,000 cases. I know that there is a means whereby a Minister in this House can correct the record, but how can a Minister in the other House correct the record in this House?
Mr Speaker
As I understand it, at this stage the matter is essentially the property of the Committee. I readily accept that it is a Committee of this House, as the hon. Gentleman has just advised me. The matter is with the Committee. If the Minister has made a mistake—I make no comment on that, because I do not know—he will have the opportunity to correct it. If the Committee believes that he has made a mistake and wishes to pursue it with him, it is open to the Committee to do so. At this stage, therefore, there is nothing further to add. To the extent that I have already advised, it is a legitimate matter for the Chair because of the involvement of a Committee of this House. I hope that that is helpful to the hon. Gentleman and to all colleagues.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. As a member of the Work and Pensions Committee, I can confirm that that was exactly what the Minister told us this morning, and we will be pursuing the matter further.
Mr Speaker
The hon. Lady has put the matter on the record. Ever anxious to be helpful in the provision of information, she will feel that she has done her duty. We are deeply obliged to her.
Police
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
17:03 - The House divided: - Ayes: 286 / Noes: 202 - Question accordingly agreed to.
The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Damian Green)
I beg to move,
That the Police Grant Report (England and Wales) for 2014-15 (HC 1043), which was laid before this House on 5 February, be approved.
In addition to seeking approval of the police grant report, I also intend to outline the ways in which we are reforming policing. We are fundamentally rethinking how policing is configured so that it is efficient and effective for years to come. This settlement reflects the need for responsibility in public spending, but it is part of a successful reform programme that is making our streets safer and our policing more modern.
On 18 December, I laid before the House the provisional police grant report for 2014-15, along with a written ministerial statement that set out the Government’s proposed allocations to local policing bodies in England and Wales. After careful consideration of the consultation responses, we have decided that force level allocations will remain as announced in December.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way so early on in his speech. He said that the grant has to be seen in the context of the new landscape of policing. Is he telling the House that that landscape is now settled—for example, that all the functions of the National Policing Improvement Agency have been transferred to other bodies such as the College of Policing or the National Crime Agency—and that that is the end of the matter and we can now move on to the next stage?
Damian Green
I can certainly tell the right hon. Gentleman that this is not the end of police reform. I will set out the reasons for and some of the effects of the reforms that we have made so far. It is a very radical programme of reform and there is more to do.
Before I go further in, I hope, enlightening the House about that wider point, it is important to recognise the achievements of our police officers. The unacceptable actions of a very small minority of officers have recently challenged the reputation of the police, but I hope the House will agree that this is not representative of the outstanding day-to-day work that the vast majority of our officers carry out in fighting crime and protecting the public. Indeed, we need look no further than the incredible job that police officers and other emergency responders are currently undertaking to support the families and businesses that have been so badly affected by the flooding.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
May I take the Minister back to his point about allocations? Also in December, a protest started against exploration for shale gas in my constituency, which is now tying down 150 Greater Manchester police officers, with the cost being met out of Greater Manchester police budgets. That amounts to £40,000 a day for the 150 officers who are being deployed, and the cost could mount to £4 million, as it did in Balcombe when there was a protest there. Does the Minister agree that there should be some support for that? Why should Greater Manchester’s population suffer a much greater thinning out of our police force, especially given that we have already lost 1,000 officers? There is no consideration of this when a controversial issue like shale gas is dumped down somewhere—the Government are keen on shale gas exploration; I am not—and the local police force and taxpayers have to support the whole deployment.
Damian Green
If there are special individual circumstances that affect a particular force, that force has the opportunity to apply for a special grant.
Damian Green
Before the hon. Lady rises to her feet again, let me deal specifically with fracking. She and I clearly disagree about the benefits of shale gas, but that is a debate for another time. The first anti-shale gas protests in Balcombe obviously affected the Sussex police, and they have applied for a special grant. I have to take evidence from Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary before I decide whether the full grant or part of it should be given—that is the correct way to deal with taxpayers’ money—but that procedure is there for precisely this sort of event.
Barbara Keeley
I raised this issue in the very first week and I have also raised it with the Home Secretary. This deployment is an enormous distraction from policing in Greater Manchester, and at great cost, and there is no help in the short term. I have been told by the gold commander responsible for the force that only if the costs go over 10% of the police budget, which would be £5 million in the case of Greater Manchester, would we get any support at all, and the Minister is saying that it would come at the end of the process. The local police force in Balcombe took the whole hit of the £4 million costs. This is of great concern to us in Salford, as I am sure my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), who is here, would agree. The force’s deployment is detracting from our day-to-day policing.
Damian Green
This is precisely why successive Governments have had the special grant arrangement to deal with unexpected events that may have a particular effect on a particular force. Since the hon. Lady clearly supports the protesters and I clearly do not, I gently suggest to her that the reason there has to be all this police activity is that if people are demonstrating in a way that requires a huge police presence, as peaceful protests need not—
Damian Green
May I finish my sentence before I give way to the hon. Lady for the third time? I urge her to urge those of her friends who are so against shale gas in the area to make sure that they are conducting their protest in a way that does not put unnecessary pressure on police resources.
Barbara Keeley
I have to say that I feel the Minister goes too far in what he says. He has no idea what my views are. I am supporting the local population, our local police force and our police and crime commissioner. This is a very unsatisfactory situation. The Minister’s comments about me are incorrect. I am supporting my constituents, who want our police force to be used for policing in our community.
Damian Green
The hon. Lady did say that she supported the views of protesters, but if she is saying that she does not support how they are protesting, then good, we are on the same side of that debate. That is sensible, because people obviously have the right to protest peacefully, but they should do so peacefully, not in a way that puts unnecessary pressure on both police resources and local communities. I have every sympathy for local communities in those conditions and, as I have said, the special grant procedure has been there for a long time for precisely such types of event.
To return to the subject of the wider grant, the achievements of police forces in this time of austerity and funding cuts are evident. Overall crime has fallen by more than 10% since this Government came into office. England and Wales are now safer than they have been for decades, with crime now at its lowest level since the independent crime survey began in 1981.
It is important to set the funding debate in the wider context. When this Government came into office in May 2010, we inherited the largest peacetime deficit in history. Borrowing increased to unprecedented levels under the previous Government, without due consideration for the long-term economic health of the nation. We are proud of the progress that we have made in addressing this most fundamental of issues. Borrowing as a percentage of GDP is down by a third, and our economy is growing. On 22 January, it was announced that unemployment had fallen by 167,000, representing the largest ever quarterly increase in the number of people in work in our country. However, we cannot rest there. Although the Government have made strong inroads into addressing the deficit, more needs to be done. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced last month that further cuts will be required into the next Parliament. That means that difficult decisions need to be made, which we must not and will not shy away from.
Despite that overall context, we have pushed to secure the best possible deal for the police, and have again protected them in 2014-15, this time from the further cuts announced to departmental budgets in December’s autumn statement.
Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
The Minister is setting out a fairly gloomy scenario for support for our police service in the years to come. I am at loss to know why, if the Government are really intent on trying to do more for less, there has not been more integration, joint budgets and collaboration at national Government level. I am amazed that we are having two separate debates today, on the police settlement and then on the local government settlement. Surely this is a time for creative thinking, when we could come together, maximise our resources and make the real reforms that the Government are refusing to make.
Damian Green
I rather agree with the right hon. Lady’s underlying point. Indeed, I will speak later about precisely such ideas for collaboration not only between police forces—I will shortly come on to the many good examples of that—but between the police and other blue light services and between the police and local government.
I assure the right hon. Lady, who used to stand at this Dispatch Box doing my very job, that one of the more enjoyable parts of the role is visiting. For example, I recently went to Thrapston in Northamptonshire to visit a joint police and fire station: one building provides two emergency blue light services, which means not only that a better service is provided to the people in and around Thrapston, but that the two emergency services, as they have told me, work better together than they did before. She is absolutely right to say that this is a time for creative thinking, and I hope to reveal during my speech some of the creative activity that is happening in police forces in this country.
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)
The Minister has just said that the police service has been protected by this settlement. It is certainly true that the service has been protected from the additional budget reductions scheduled for 2014-15. Is it not also true, however, that the Home Office has indicated that money will be taken from forces to fund a range of new initiatives—we strongly support some of them, such as the College of Policing—with the consequence that forces will face a 4.8% cut, rather than the 3.3% grant reduction originally anticipated? Those top-slices will therefore reduce the amount of grant funds available to individual forces to use at their discretion.
Damian Green
One of the top-slices was, for example, for the police innovation fund, which is available to all forces. I am happy to say that all forces applied in the first round—off the top of my head, I think that there were 115 applications altogether—and every force will get some benefit from that.
Furthermore, the point of the innovation fund is precisely to encourage the kind of collaboration mentioned by the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). That is precisely the sort of creative use of the inevitably constrained pot of taxpayers’ money for spending on the police—let us not forget that it is still £8.5 billion—in the most effective way possible, aiding collaboration and enabling the police to carry on with the successful policies they have pursued during the past few years, which have continued to cut crime.
Central Government funding for the police will be reduced by 3.3% in cash terms in 2014-15, while overall funding will be reduced by even less, when the future police precept is factored in. We have also protected funding for counter-terrorism policing, due to the continuing threat posed to the UK by terrorism. To give the House a comparison, the remaining Home Office budget will be cut by 7% in cash terms in 2014-15.
This funding settlement is therefore challenging, but it is manageable. HMIC, the inspectorate, has made it clear that the proportion of officers working on the front line is increasing, and we are supporting the police through a range of activities to help them respond to the challenge and ultimately to emerge stronger. As I said at the outset, we are also changing the policing landscape in a way that represents the biggest set of reforms for a generation.
Jack Dromey
The Minister has just referred to front-line police officers. Will he confirm that in excess of 10,000 police officers have gone from the front line since 2010?
Damian Green
There are certainly fewer front-line officers, but that is because of the situation. However, one of the very good responses made by the police—in conjunction with the Government policy of reducing the amount of time-wasting form-filling that they had to do under the previous Government—has been to put a higher proportion of their officers on the front line. Indeed, the projections for the police officer work force suggest that front-line roles will increase from 89% in March 2010 to 93% by March 2015. That seems to me to be a very good use of front-line policing.
I gently point out to the shadow police Minister that the shadow Chancellor, in a burst of honesty last June, said:
“The next Labour government will have to plan on the basis of falling departmental spending.”
I hope, this afternoon, we will not hear a series of Labour Members or even Front Benchers claiming that they would shower more money on the police or that more money would be available for more police officers, because the shadow Chancellor has already said that that will not happen.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
On the number of front-line police officers, will the Minister join me in congratulating Cambridgeshire constabulary and particularly its chief constable, who has managed to maintain the number of police constables in the force throughout this period and is now recruiting more? Does that not show what can be done if budgets are used carefully?
Damian Green
I happily join my hon. Friend in congratulating not only Cambridgeshire police and the chief constable, but the PCC, Sir Graham Bright. Between them, they have done an excellent job, as is borne out by the fact that crime in Cambridgeshire is down 24% since June 2010, so its streets are safer than ever before.
I have already mentioned the police innovation fund, which will be worth up to £50 million a year from next year. It represents a new step to incentivise innovation, collaboration and digitisation, to drive efficiencies and improve policing for not just one year, but the longer term. We have established a £20 million precursor fund in this financial year and it has received a good response. As I said, there have been 115 bids, totalling £50 million. The bids cover a wide range of activities, including the development of mobile technology and greater collaboration across the emergency services.
A key area in which we are providing innovation funding and encouraging greater collaboration is the use of body-worn video equipment. Investment in camera technology will enhance police protection and support officers in discharging their duties.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
I say kindly to the Minister that the collaboration between the police and local government, to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) referred, is becoming increasingly difficult because of the financial constraints on local government. To give an example from my constituency, in 2004, Greater Manchester police and Tameside metropolitan borough council came together and rehoused Denton police station in Denton town hall, creating a one-stop shop for those services. Greater Manchester police has withdrawn from that because of the funding constraints on it, which means that nobody in Tameside’s second largest town has direct, face-to-face access to the police. That police station was their front line.
Damian Green
I disagree with the hon. Gentleman’s underlying point. I am surprised to hear anyone say that financial pressures make it more difficult to collaborate. The reaction that I have observed around the country, both in police forces and local government, is that financial pressures make better collaboration essential.
Damian Green
I will just answer this intervention before I take another one from my hon. Friend.
I have mentioned the joint police and fire station that I visited recently in Northamptonshire. Fairly recently, I also visited a joint police station and local government office in Chippenham in Wiltshire. Again, that is very creative. Each of those public bodies has to have buildings and each faces the same pressures that are faced by the whole public sector, for the reasons that I have rehearsed. They are using that as an opportunity. Instead of the police being based in the old Victorian police station on the edge of town, they are now in a more modern building that is in the centre of town. That makes the police more accessible. There are opportunities for the police and local authorities to collaborate. In this case, their physical collaboration has brought the police closer to the public.
Andrew Gwynne
I do not think that the Minister truly understands the scale of the local government reductions in areas such as Tameside. Since 2010, including inflation, Tameside metropolitan borough council has lost the equivalent of 50% of its budget. The council is therefore in retrenchment mode, as are the police. Communities such as Denton are losing out as both those public services retrench back to their own silos.
Damian Green
I know Greater Manchester police better than I know the local council, but it would seem logical for them not to retrench into their silos, as the hon. Gentleman puts it, but to seek out collaboration.
I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), who has been very patient.
Andrew Percy
I apologise for my eagerness to row in behind my right hon. Friend on this point. May I give an example of what is happening in my area? North Lincolnshire council, which already had much lower funding than other authorities, has lost about 20% of its funding. It has entered into collaborative arrangements with the police, which have seen it paying for police community support officers itself and having a sharing arrangement on fuel. It is about to go into a sharing arrangement on buildings. It can do all that at a time of reducing budgets, as well as reversing many other things, such as cuts to youth services. Services must work together. In my area, doing that is having a positive impact on policing on the front line.
Damian Green
My hon. Friend gives an example from another part of the country, which is similar to the examples I have seen in the past few months. He illustrates my point that collaboration is necessary at a time when public finances are under stringent control and that it can lead to better services than we had when the public spending tap was turned on more fully. That led to inefficiencies and a lack of collaboration.
Damian Green
I will give way to the hon. Gentleman just one more time, because he will have his own turn to speak in a minute.
Jack Dromey
To speak in support of my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), I sat in on a meeting of the Tameside community safety partnership before Christmas. On the one hand, I saw inspiring innovation and effective collaboration. On the other hand, I heard an unmistakable message from the police service, the local authority and the other agencies that such was the scale of the cuts hitting Greater Manchester councils that not only was the thin blue line being stretched ever thinner, but the fabric of partnership working was being stretched ever further, putting at risk their ability to fight crime effectively in the area.
Damian Green
I can only repeat what I said earlier to the shadow policing Minister. Given that the shadow Chancellor has said,
“The next Labour government will have to plan on the basis of falling departmental spending”,
the shadow Minister is facing the very problem that he seeks to point out. I therefore hope that he will not give false messages to the people of Tameside and elsewhere that, in the unlikely event that the British people hand the car keys back to those who crashed the car in the first place, he will have a new pot of taxpayers’ money. According to the shadow Chancellor, he will not.
Hazel Blears
The Minister is being tremendously generous in giving way. I think that it improves the debate if we ask these questions. He is right that hard decisions will have to be taken on all public services, including the police. Greater Manchester has just seen a £6.4 million cut in policing. Apparently, £100,000 of the money that is being taken off us is going directly to the City of London police, who are said to need
“more money to deal with events of ‘major national interest’ in the capital’s financial district”.
I think that the people of Salford and Eccles would far rather that money was spent on tackling antisocial behaviour and burglary than on protecting the financial district and the banks. Does he think that that is the right priority?
Damian Green
Given that the right hon. Lady has presided over this budget in her time, she knows perfectly well that money is not taken from one budget and given to another. One of the big things that the City of London police do is to fight cybercrime and fraud. People in Salford, like those in my constituency and in every other constituency, want the police to be as effective as possible in fighting fraud and cybercrime. That is why that money needs to be spent.
Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)
My right hon. Friend will have looked at the Opposition’s commitments on funding, so will he help me? Will they match our spending totals for policing and the police grant settlement or will they do something different? I am completely in the dark.
Damian Green
My hon. Friend, as ever, puts his finger on the right point. The shadow Chancellor is saying that an incoming Labour Government would cut departmental spending, but all the mood music from those on the Opposition Front Bench is that they would increase public spending. That is a central incoherence at the heart of Labour policy. I hope that in his response, the shadow policing Minister will clear that up and answer my hon. Friend’s very good question.
Despite having been in post for just over a year, police and crime commissioners have contributed to the transformation of policing. The recent National Audit Office report confirmed that PCCs are driving improvements and value for money in a way that unelected police authorities could not. Their engagement with the public is much greater than that of the old police authorities. For example, one PCC has seen an 800% increase in the volume of correspondence compared with what the police authority received. PCCs have also been at the heart of reform and have embraced new technology. For example, my local force in Kent is using predictive policing, which combines historical data with predictive algorithms to identify the areas that are most likely to be affected by crime, thereby helping it better to allocate resources and target the deployment of officers.
As the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee pointed out, we have set up the College of Policing to increase the professionalism of the police. I am grateful for the support of the Home Affairs Committee for the College of Policing. I want policing to be regarded as one of the great professions, alongside the law and medicine. The college will produce an evidence base on what works and lead a transformation in how police officers and staff do their jobs. The college will soon publish the first ever code of ethics in the history of British policing. Given that we have just been discussing the ongoing Hillsborough process, I am sure that the House will recognise the importance of that code of ethics. It will be a clear declaration of the principles and values that are expected of all police officers. It will ensure that officers act with high ethical standards in all their conduct.
Keith Vaz
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way a second time, and I fully endorse the vision he has set out. I am a little concerned, however, about an issue that has been raised by a number of Members across the House, especially my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh), which is that the cost of the certificate of policing is put at £1,000. Does the Minister have any information that will help reassure those new recruits that either the Government are prepared to consider reducing the cost, or that it is money well spent for their future?
Damian Green
I am sure that it is money well spent because getting the best people into the police for the future is one of the principal points of our reforms. As I said, I hope that policing will become one of the great professions that people look to, and that therefore—even more importantly—it will provide a better service to the public. I know that the Metropolitan police commissioner is looking at providing soft loans or some other form of bursary, and it is for individual forces to decide whether or not to ask for the certificate and how best to attract people. I know that at the moment the Metropolitan police is looking at that.
Apart from the College of Policing, we are also expanding the Independent Police Complaints Commission to ensure that a greater number of cases involving the police will be considered independently. Given the current atmosphere surrounding various complaints about the police, I am sure that will be welcomed by the whole House.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way because it gives me the chance for a small plug. Has he had the chance to look through a copy of the report that I wrote for the Council of Europe on eradicating racism in police forces across Europe? If not, would he welcome a copy?
Damian Green
I confess that I have not yet read my hon. Friend’s report, and I would, of course, very much welcome a copy. I am glad that he got his plug on the record.
We have also launched the National Crime Agency, which is leading the UK’s fight to cut serious and organised crime. The priority for the NCA is to identify and disrupt serious and organised crime, and I am glad to report to the House that it is already achieving successes. In a recent operation in the Philippines, the NCA worked alongside US and Australian authorities to dismantle an international child abuse ring, leading to 17 arrests in this country. That is an excellent example of the partnership approach that the NCA was set up to develop.
While mentioning partnership, let me move on to collaboration. Police and crime commissioners and chief constables are working to drive efficiency and improve policing through greater collaboration. We know—we have already had an exchange on this—that collaboration initiatives can be challenging to set up, but there is no reason why forces should be planning to deliver less than 10% of their savings from collaboration. If they are doing that, opportunities are being missed.
Let me give some examples. Recently, the independent inspectorate praised the Warwickshire and West Mercia strategic alliance as one of the most ambitious and extensive collaborations in the country. In 2014-15, West Mercia expects 70% of its total expenditure to be spent collaboratively, generating 94% of the force’s savings requirement. Similarly, Warwickshire expects 75% of its total expenditure to be spent on collaboration, generating 75% of the force’s whole savings requirement. That shows what can be achieved.
It is important to recognise that collaboration is not just about sharing with other forces. Mental health, for example, has a big impact on crime and policing, and nine forces are now participating in street triage pilots that involve mental health professionals and paramedics working closely with police officers. They aim to improve the experience of, and access to, the health service for individuals at the point of mental health crisis. The initial feedback from those pilots is very positive, with good partnership working and a reduction in the number of police detentions under the Mental Health Act 2007. That is better for the police and, even more importantly, better for patients.
A further area where reform can both save money and deliver a better service is greater collaboration between the blue-light emergency services. Innovative work is already taking place between PCCs, fire authorities and ambulance trusts, and the Government are already supporting proposals for emergency services sharing properties, services, training and communications, through £3.8 million of funding from the police innovation fund.
Andrew Percy
I am interested in what the Minister has to say. I agree that there has been a lot of collaboration, but there still seems to be a bit of silo mentality in some of the services. Have the Government considered combining the PCC role to become also a fire commissioner and replace fire authorities, and to try to bring the two services together? There is a lot of synergy between them.
Damian Green
Obviously there are a number of such proposals, and the most sensible thing I can say at this point is that the Government will soon publish their response to the Knight review on fire services. That will, I hope, put all this in perspective.
Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)
I am fascinated to hear the Minister mention the Knight review because we thought it had been quietly shelved. Given that it has taken months and that the Minister seems to know more about it than we do, will he enlighten the House on when the Government might consider thinking about publishing their response to the Knight review?
Damian Green
I assure the hon. Lady that the response will be published shortly and I hope that that satisfies her.
Our vision is for policing to be digital by 2016 because technology has the potential to transform policing the way it has transformed many other areas of life. Hampshire police already use mobile data on a variety of devices to give officers a full digital experience through their work, and it found that it could demonstrate a 26% reduction in the time spent by officers in stations, and a 20% reduction in mileage covered by patrol vehicles. Again, we are using the police innovation fund to support mobile working and invest in mobile devices, data storage and transmission. Indeed, we found that digital working can increase efficiency, even in forces that are not geographically next to each other. For example, Northamptonshire and Cheshire have united to create a joint shared service, providing 24-hour human resources advice, uniform ordering, and admin functions. I am delighted that 32 forces have now agreed to become digital pathfinders, because the thought that we can transform policing through the use of technology is spreading throughout the police service.
At a time when public spending has been under severe pressure, this adds up to the most significant reform of the police in a generation. It has already led to more effective and efficient policing, which delivers value for money for the taxpayer and ensures that significant falls in overall crime continue year on year.
Of course the challenge does not end there. We need to make further cuts to public spending and the police must play their part, despite the protections that we have been able to provide. Importantly, we are taking a long-term view on police funding. Last year, we announced that the Government would undertake a fundamental review of the formula used to allocate funding between police force areas. That complex process will take time, but the first phase of the work—an internal analytical review—is already under way, and we will consult a full range of partners, both inside the police and the PCCs, at the appropriate point as the work develops.
I recognise that the funding settlement will create further challenges for PCCs and forces, but it will also bring opportunities, particularly for those prepared to innovate, collaborate and transform, drive efficiencies and deliver even better policing across England and Wales. I commend the motion to the House.
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)
Let me make two preliminary points. First, hon. Members were here earlier for a powerful debate on the Floor of the House about Hillsborough, and it is absolutely right that where there is wrongdoing, those who are guilty of such wrongdoing are held fully and properly to account. Secondly, I agree with the Minister when he says that a progressive reform agenda—progressive is my word, not his—is a good thing and should be embraced. That is precisely why we commissioned the Stevens report and I will say more on that later. I agree with the Minister on the proposal to professionalise the police service progressively, with chartered police officers accountable to the College of Policing, a lifelong career and personal development.
Let me turn to the issue of Hillsborough and how our police service is sometimes painted. I agree with both the Home Secretary and the Police Minister when they say that it would be absolutely wrong to paint the entire police service with the brush of a very small minority guilty of wrongdoing. I want to start by paying tribute to the brave policemen and women up and down the country who put their lives on the line day in, day out to keep our communities safe; police officers like Ian Dibell who have given their lives for their community and this country. In my constituency I have seen the outstanding bravery of police officers—for example, tackling armed robbers—and the very best of neighbourhood policing. The Stockland Green neighbourhood police team is an award-winning team. Five years ago, the North Birmingham academy in Kingstanding was riven with gang violence. The school has been utterly transformed by the excellent co-operation between the new leadership of the school and the local police service.
The first duty of any Government is the safety and security of the communities we serve. In government, Labour listened to what people wanted and to what the police said. We invested in neighbourhood policing: 17,000 additional police officers who know their communities and 16,000 additional police community support officers. Neighbourhood policing worked: it proved to be deeply popular and crime fell by 43%. Today, however, as a direct result of the actions of this Government, there is a real fear that we risk a generation of progress being reversed.
Andrew Gwynne
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. When I was a local councillor, one of the biggest issues on the doorstep was the remoteness of the police. One of the biggest advantages of the introduction of neighbourhood policing was that people finally started to feel an affinity with their local bobby and their police community support officers. Is he aware that we are seeing neighbourhood policing teams covering larger geographical areas with fewer police officers and PCSOs? Those complaints about the remoteness of the police are starting to come back.
Jack Dromey
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. At the heart of neighbourhood policing is the notion of local policing: roots in the local community, the community knowing who their police officers are and being able to identify with them and develop relationships with them, both in terms of providing evidence of wrongdoing and diverting people from crime—preventing crime in the first place. The intimacy of those local relationships is of the highest importance. At our peril do we go down the path of moving away from the notion of neighbourhood policing and towards remote police officers touring areas in their cars when what the neighbourhood wants to see is that presence on their streets.
Hazel Blears
I was the Minister responsible for bringing in neighbourhood policing, which, in its day, was very controversial. Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the ways forward ought to be even more radical? We should integrate response policing and neighbourhood policing, so that instead of having two strands in our policing framework we can ensure that the underlying principles of neighbourhood policing are what drives the whole of our police service.
Jack Dromey
My right hon. Friend, with her formidable experience and the remarkable achievement of building modern policing, is right to make a strong argument in favour of that kind of integration. I pay tribute to her work in government. The lasting legacy is neighbourhood policing that this country so rightly prizes, albeit that the thin blue line is now being stretched ever thinner.
Andrew Percy
I am little surprised at what I am hearing, given that it was during the previous Government and under the chairmanship of a local Labour councillor that Humberside police got rid of its neighbourhood policing teams, got rid of local instant response teams in neighbourhood areas and created much bigger local policing teams that were not on a ward basis. I do not recall any opposition from anybody in the Labour party, locally or nationally, when that happened, so I am surprised at what I am hearing today. Will the hon. Gentleman confirm whether the position of the Labour party is to support what it did when it was in power, or is this a new policy?
Jack Dromey
The hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I say that I do not know the details of the issue he raises. What I do know is that, as I go up and down the country—on 50 occasions, arising out of the Stevens report—the message I get from police officers, communities and partnership agencies is that they value what the Labour Government built. That is coming under increasing pressure as a consequence of what this Government are doing.
Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)
However we term policing on the beat—as neighbourhood policing, or anything else—as a former soldier I know that being on the ground is the most effective form of gathering intelligence. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that is what people want: police officers on the ground 24 hours a day where they can be seen?
Jack Dromey
I totally agree. It is the most effective form of local policing in terms of detection of crime and diverting people from crime. It is also key to the detection of very serious wrongdoing. For example, in the city I am proud to represent, Birmingham, there has been a large number of terrorist crime convictions. Some involved hi-tech monitoring, but in most cases the detection of wrongdoers came about through good neighbourhood policing and the development of local relationships; in this case, predominantly with the Muslim community. As a consequence of that co-operation, those guilty of the threat or actual commission of terrorist crime were brought to book. Whether it is a local burglary or a terrorist crime that threatens our community, there is no substitute for the local policing that the hon. Gentleman rightly identifies.
David T. C. Davies
I agree with a lot of what the shadow Minister is saying. That community presence is clearly very important, but surely there is also a role for police officers in vehicles being able to respond quickly to emergencies? That is something that the public also feel very strongly about.
Jack Dromey
Of course that is right. I made reference in passing to an example in my constituency. An armed robber on the run hijacked a car, pushing aside a terrified mother of two young children, who were still in the backseat, and drove off. The speed with which the armed response unit responded and apprehended that thug was outstanding. The thug is now where he richly deserves to be: behind bars serving a very long sentence. Hon. Members will excuse me if I try to move on from the paragraph of my speech that I have been on for the past five to 10 minutes, but I will be glad to take further interventions as appropriate.
Our central concern is that, as the thin blue line gets ever thinner, the Government’s 11th hour police grant report does nothing to stop the remorseless hollowing out of our police service, with more than 10,000 police officers already gone from the front line. The delay and infighting within the Government over the threshold by which a referendum would be required for an increase to the police element of council tax bills, has put police and crime commissioners and local authorities in an impossible position with only a month left to set their budget.
Damian Green
Before the hon. Gentleman skates over what is the heart of his argument and when he talks about the thinning out of the thin blue line and so on, is he committing a future Labour Government to spending more on the police?
Jack Dromey
Let me answer that straight up front. The Minister referred earlier to “Labour’s legacy”. If we look at what we achieved between 1997 and 2007, we reduced the debt to GDP ratio from 40.9%, which we inherited from the previous Government, to 36.4% and, in addition to all the other achievements that I see in my constituency—the health centres, the schools and the children centres—we put 17,000 police officers on the beat and 16,000 PCSOs with them. Then, after the 2007 crash, we faced up to the difficult circumstances confronting the country, and that is why the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), when he was Police Minister, said that economies were necessary. He embraced the proposal that a 12% cut could be achieved without affecting the frontline. Instead, the Government went too far, too fast, driving through a 20% cut with all the consequences that have flowed for the front line.
It is precisely because of the concern that has been widely expressed about the consequences for the police service generally, and for neighbourhood policing in particular, that we commissioned the Stevens report, which has proposed a progressive agenda and the rebuilding of neighbourhood policing. In the next Parliament, that will be one of our priorities.
Jack Dromey
In a moment. What we will not do is make a pledge in opposition for 3,000 additional police officers—the manifesto on which the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) fought the election—and then come into government and cut 10,000 officers from the front line.
Dr Huppert
I missed the bit where the hon. Gentleman congratulated my force on recruiting constables, as it is currently doing. I also missed the bit where he answered the Minister’s question. Does he have any sort of commitment for the future or does he just have a magical wish list? I wish we had had the money for those 3,000 officers: unfortunately—as I am sure he knows—when we came into office the Government were having to borrow £1 for every £4 that they spent and we could not continue like that. I wish we had had a better inheritance.
Jack Dromey
The Liberal Democrats are part of a Government who inherited a growing economy. With the greatest of respect, we will take no lessons from a party that pledges the abolition of tuition fees and 3,000 additional police officers, and then props up a Government who impose unprecedented cuts on our police service.
Looking to the next Parliament, I have been very clear about what we did in the last Parliament and what we would do now. Now, as I will argue later, we would follow the 12% proposed—including by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary—because that can be achieved without harming the front line, and we will go into the next general election as the party of neighbourhood policing. The hon. Gentleman will have to wait for our proposals on how we intend to achieve that.
Mr Simon Burns (Chelmsford) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman is tying himself in knots, so perhaps I can help him out. Can I take it from his evasions that the answer to the question asked by my right hon. Friend the Minister is no?
Jack Dromey
Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can help me. Has his party declared its manifesto on the police for the next Parliament? No, it has not. We will say to the country, “Judge us on our record.” Labour is the party of neighbourhood policing. Labour built neighbourhood policing and will defend it. The Government are undermining neighbourhood policing, and we will take no lessons from the Liberal Democrats or the Conservatives.
Andrew Gwynne
I am glad that my hon. Friend has laid out Labour’s commitment to neighbourhood policing. The blunt truth for my constituents is that the difference between the HMIC proposals for a 12% cut in waste and the Government proposals for a 20% cut to policing is the loss of Denton police station, the loss of Reddish police station, fewer bobbies, fewer PCSOs and a more remote police service.
Jack Dromey
My hon. Friend is right. After the 2007 crash, all parties faced the question of how to make reasonable economies. The 12% proposal, which was carefully thought through and which we embraced, would not have put the front line at risk. A 20% cut has put the front line at risk. In addition, the fabric of partnership working is being stretched ever further and our communities are increasingly feeling the consequences.
The Government’s delay in announcing the threshold was unacceptable and has meant that police and crime commissioners were left in the ludicrous situation of having to propose their police precepts, under a statutory duty created by this Government, without knowing whether they would have the power to implement them. We have heard a lot about localism from the Government, but calls from police and crime commissioners for clarity about funding were repeatedly ignored in Whitehall.
Now that we have seen the settlement, I cannot say that it makes up for the hold-up by the Government. The Conservative party and their coalition partners, the Liberal Democrats, are cutting police funding by 20%. In the last three years, that has already resulted in the loss of more than 15,000 police officers. I have seen firsthand in Birmingham and the west midlands some of the finest police officers one would ever want to meet or work with forced out under the A19 rule.
The loss of 15,000 officers was more than the experts predicted and a higher number than HMIC said would be safe. But the Government plough on regardless with this settlement. It is not only wrong in itself: it is increasingly damaging police morale. The pressure being put on our police by these unsafe cuts is starting to take its toll. Just last weekend, we learned that 800 police officers are off work on full pay as a result of stress-related sickness, costing the taxpayer millions of pounds every year. Just last year, police officers took 250,000 days off because of stress-related illnesses, a 15% increase over the three years up to 2013. Chief constables are blaming staff cuts for the staggering rise in sick days for depression and other mental issues.
In government and in opposition, my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn, the distinguished former police Minister, said that some reductions in expenditure were necessary, given the economic circumstances, but as hon. Members have said today, we agreed with HMIC that a cut of 12% could be achieved without harming front-line policing. As we said at the time—it is important to remember this—a reduction of 12% over a Parliament, and of around £1 billion a year by the end of the Parliament, would have involved making tough choices if we were to succeed in protecting police numbers. Such tough choices included cuts in overtime, reform of procurement, collaboration, and altering shift patterns, but we believed then and believe now that that was the right approach, and that those savings were and are possible.
Conversely, the Government’s approach—they have ignored the HMIC advice and cut police funding by 20%—resulted in the loss overall of 15,383 police officers in the first three years of this Parliament, which is more than even the most apocalyptic predictions and proof that going beyond 12% meant cutting police officers, not waste, as my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) has said. The Home Secretary has said:
“Crucially, all the savings that I have set out can be made while protecting the quality of front-line services.”—[Official Report, 23 May 2011; Vol. 528, c. 714.]
She has repeatedly said that, but 10,460 bobbies have gone from our streets since the general election.
Mr Ruffley
Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the concept that falls in crime are determined not only by the number of police officers on the beat, but by how they are organised? It is not just a numbers game.
Jack Dromey
I totally agree. Numbers are crucial, but how officers are best deployed is too. I have seen at first hand inspiring examples—I am sure the hon. Gentleman has seen the same in his constituency—of developing relationships with parts of the community in an intelligent way and doing things in a smart way with other partnership agencies, and of sharing buildings and back-office resources. That was at the heart of the 12% HMIC proposal—it said that we should be better and smarter, but cutting 20% is going too far, too fast, with unacceptable consequences for the front line.
Mr Simon Burns
If everything is as terrible and devastating as the hon. Gentleman says, why is crime falling?
Jack Dromey
I will come straight to that point. Precisely as a consequence of what has happened, there are worrying signs that crime, and especially violent crime, is starting to rise for the first time in nearly two decades. The latest crime figures show disturbing signs that a generation of progress in some areas is being reversed. For example, there is a worrying increase in muggings. Violence against the person has increased in 16 police force areas and violence without injury has increased in 19 police force areas. According to the British Retail Consortium, shoplifting, which is often associated with assaults on shop staff, is at a nine-year high.
Increasingly, the victims of crime are being let down as criminals get off scot-free—7,000 fewer crimes of violence have been solved under this Government. Despite a sharp increase in sexual crime, there has been a significant fall in the referral of cases to the Crown Prosecution Service for prosecution. Victims of the most heinous crimes are being let down.
On top of that, police forces are stretched to breaking point. They are taking up to 30% longer to respond to 999 calls and there was a reduction in overall crimes solved in 22 forces—nearly 14,000 more crimes were unsolved last year than when the Government came to power. In addition, crime is changing. Fraud has increased by 34%, but we know that that is just the tip of the iceberg, because much online crime goes unreported.
Despite those worrying indications that a generation of progress is being reversed, all we have heard from the Government is the constant assertion that crime is falling. However, the Government’s independent statistics watchdog has said that the statistics can no longer be relied on, and has downgraded its precious gold standard. The UK Statistics Authority chair, the eminent Sir Andrew Dilnot, has said that the more accurate the statistics become, the more likely it is that they will show that crime is rising. That is the result of three years of cutting too far and too fast, and yet here we are again. The Government refuse to see the damage being done by their reckless cuts to police and local authority budgets.
Not only Her Majesty’s Opposition are raising concerns. The Association of Chief Police Officers president, Sir Hugh Orde, has warned that we may now be at the tipping point—he has used those words. Tony Lloyd, the chair of the police and crime commissioners national body, and the Greater Manchester police and crime commissioner—he is highly respected across the spectrum as a former Member of the House—has said:
“I have warned since before I was elected that the government’s reckless programme of cuts is endangering community safety…We are now standing at the edge of a cliff . The chief constable”—
the eminent Sir Peter Fahy—
“has told me that he cannot provide the levels of policing that Greater Manchester people expect and deserve”
in future. He adds that, if the cuts continue:
“There simply will not be enough money in the pot”
for the police to discharge their duties.
The independent commission on the future of policing, led by Lord Stevens—it is a royal commission in all but name—and on which some of the most eminent figures in police and crime sit, has sounded a warning bell about the future of neighbourhood policing, which has been hit hard by Government cuts.
Jack Dromey
Lord Stevens has said that we are in danger of returning to a
“discredited model of reactive policing”.
The hon. Member for Cambridge may choose to ignore those voices, but if the head of ACPO, the head of the PCCs and the former head of the Metropolitan police speak with one voice, they send an unmistakable message that there is cause for concern.
Dr Huppert
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way finally. He talks of an independent commission. Is it appropriate and honest to do so when the website says clearly that the report is published on behalf of the Labour party? It says that the Labour party will place cookies on the computers of those who read it. Can he sustain the idea that the commission is independent?
Jack Dromey
Is the hon. Gentleman accusing Lord Stevens or any member of that commission of having a bias?
Dr Huppert
If the commission publishes a report that states clearly that it is published on behalf of the Labour party, it cannot be independent. The Labour party is not an independent body.
Jack Dromey
The hon. Gentleman reins back from impugning the integrity of the commission members. The shadow Home Secretary and the leader of the Labour party were absolutely right to listen to the widespread calls for what the Stevens commission became—a royal commission in all but name. It was 50 years since the last royal commission, and the police service required serious examination for the future in the 21st century. We were right to commission those eminent and responsible individuals, who produced a report independent of the Labour party. It challenges all political parties, but focuses on the growing concern in the crime and policing world at the Government’s direction of travel—the hon. Gentleman, having pledged 3,000 additional police officers, is propping them up.
It is not only police chiefs and the various people I have referred to who are raising concerns about the future of British policing. If the Minister stopped and listened to communities up and down the country, as I have been doing as part of our consultation arising from the Stevens report, he would hear their concerns loud and clear. He should talk to those in Coventry, Greater Manchester, Worcester or indeed Kent about neighbourhood policing, and they will say how crucial it is. He should talk to them about what is happening to neighbourhood policing, and they will rightly express their growing concern about that which they value and know from experience works.
Andrew Gwynne
I do not think my hon. Friend has been to see the Poets Corner residents association in Reddish, in the Stockport part of my constituency, but he might as well have been there, because the concerns he has just outlined are very much those it raised with me. In particular, its neighbourhood policing team is now far more remote; it is based in Stockport town centre, instead of at Reddish police station. Does my hon. Friend understand why those residents feel so isolated, on the edge of the borough, without an adequate local neighbourhood policing team?
Jack Dromey
Again, my hon. Friend speaks up admirably for his constituency, reflecting the concern I have seen on my visits for the Stevens consultation. Communities such as his have helped to build community policing, they value it and they want it to continue, but they are seeing it come apart at the seams, with the police becoming increasingly remote, often as a result of the cuts impacting on relationships with the police officers who serve their communities.
The first priority of policing is to fight crime, but it is not the only priority. If the Police Minister was to visit the Somerset levels and tell people there that the police are only crime fighters, they would be utterly uncomprehending. Yet the Home Secretary could not have been clearer when she said:
“cutting crime is the only test of a police force”.
Over the last few weeks, however, we have seen how important their wider role is. Their function, above all, is to build relationships, prevent crime, divert people from crime, detect crime and wrongdoing and bring those responsible to account, but, at times of disaster and crisis, they are also there to rebuild lives and communities. Their wider function, therefore, is of the highest importance.
The warning bells are sounding, and for that reason we are calling on the Government urgently to rethink the scale of their cuts and instead to set out a proper plan for police reform. We are now in the fourth year of this Parliament, and we are again debating a settlement that will damage the ability of police officers across the country to serve their communities. I want to stand up for the best of British policing and for our communities and their determination to fight crime. For that reason, we will vote against this settlement. It is the duty of us all in the House to fight for what our communities want and deserve—to be safe and secure in their homes and their streets and to see a continuation of the neighbourhood policing we built in government. For that reason, I urge all Members to vote with us in rejecting the Government’s plans.
Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)
The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) says “cuts”, which he has not promised to reverse; we say “reform”. We have the most reforming Home Secretary in the last 50 years when it comes to running and managing the police. When she entered office, she cleared away hundreds upon hundreds of Labour targets—key performance indicators, public service agreements; targets were coming out of constabularies’ ears—and she said, “We’re going to have one target—to cut crime”. And she is delivering on that target. Crime is down 10% since this coalition came into effect.
As the shadow police reform Minister in the last Parliament, I had occasion to study the history of police reform. What strikes me about the current plans is how coherent and effective Ministers have made their proposals. First, we have introduced locally elected police and crime commissioners, the idea of which was criticised even before it had begun. There was sniping about the low turnout at elections, but let us remember that 5 million people voted in those elections—5 million more than ever voted for local police authorities—and a single focal point of accountability for local people is now a reality.
My own PCC, Tim Passmore, in Suffolk, has frozen the police precept two years running, is driving collaboration with Norfolk constabulary and believes that we should, as other Members have said, look at forcing new savings from police service budgets by amalgamating and collaborating with other blue-light services. We have heard that fire services should be part of the PCC’s remit, and Mr Passmore is arguing hard for that. Also, we need to think much more imaginatively about the sharing of overheads, not just with the fire service, but with county councils. In my own area, it is shocking that the East of England ambulance service trust has four control rooms and mini-headquarters. Those should be sold off and joined up with the other blue-light headquarters of the police constabulary in Suffolk and the fire service.
The police reform agenda that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has begun contains some very coherent national themes. The new National Crime Agency brings coherence to level 2 crime, protective services and fighting organised crime, while under the Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims, we have a new focus on increasing productivity among police officers. The numbers game that the Labour party wants to play simply will not wash. It talks about the loss of up to 15,000 uniformed officers since 2010, but it has not pledged to find the money to reinstate those officers, and there is a reason it probably should not bother: it is not just the number of officers that will lead to reductions in crime and better crime prevention; it is how those officers are deployed.
Hazel Blears
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the reforms relating to serious and organised crime and the NCA depend on the success of neighbourhood policing, because the golden thread of intelligence, which every force relies on, starts at the community level? Unless we have that intelligence feeding all the way through to serious and organised crime and into counter-terrorism, we will lose that connection, and that requires numbers. We cannot build relationships unless we have people on the ground doing that job.
Mr Ruffley
The right hon. Lady misunderstands me. I am obviously in agreement that the bedrock of British policing, whether it is level 1, 2 or 3 policing, is neighbourhood policing and safer neighbourhood teams. That is a given. I am suggesting that with better productivity among existing uniformed officers we can deliver the falls in crime further into the future that we have seen in the last three years. How might we do that? The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims has talked about the new generation of productivity tools: electronic tablets, computerised forms and body-worn video cameras that will reduce the amount of form-filling back at the station. My right hon. Friend came to Ipswich a few months ago to see a pilot that Suffolk constabulary is running on body-worn video cameras so that police officers can spend less time behind a desk back at the station computing and filling in forms and can instead get on with visible policing on the front line.
In addition, Ministers have created something that was long overdue and which the Labour party had 13 years to create; a police ICT company that has offered a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to buy police technology in a joined-up way, so that we do not have 42 forces doing their own thing and wasting money, with interoperability being limited and the power of bulk purchasing completely ignored.
My right hon. Friend touched on the fact that we need to look not just at higher productivity, but at standards in policing. In that, the Home Secretary has been no slouch either. She has instituted the new College of Policing, which has taken a fresh look at how we professionalise the police service at all levels, with better training and an insistence on higher ethical standards. She is talking about direct entry so that very able men and women from other disciplines—whether the armed forces or business—do not have to do the compulsory two years’ probationary constable time before they can ever run a police force.
The Normington proposals, announced a few days ago, will radically reform the Police Federation and will also engender a higher sense of ethical responsibility among the 125,000 police officers that the federation currently represents. We also have the Winsor review, parts one and two of which are controversial as they make changes to overtime, salary levels and entitlements. But Winsor modernises the work force of the police service so that it conforms to the norms of every other part of the British economy, all other public services and the private sector. Winsor says simply that we should not just pay police officers according to time served, pretty much regardless of their performance. Instead, we should reward specialisms and capabilities so that younger officers who are going out and improving their skills, getting better training and producing higher performance, have that reflected in their remuneration. We are doing that in the teaching profession; it would be inexcusable to make the police an exception. Police exceptionalism in this regard is not sustainable in the public services today.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
I would be interested in my hon. Friend’s views on the future of police community support officers who, in my county of Leicestershire, offer a good presence on the ground and are very good at gaining intelligence that they can pass on to police officers.
Mr Ruffley
In response to the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), I said that there is general consensus across the House that neighbourhood policing teams and beat officers are the bedrock of British policing, not just in providing reassurance to the local populace but in being a vital source of intelligence, whether on organised gangs, drug dealing or whatever.
I hope that my hon. Friend will have seen a fall in crime in his constituency. The dramatic 10% fall in the last three years suggests that the claims made by Jeremiahs from the Labour party, and some sections of the police service, that the Conservative spending plans would lead inevitably to a spike up in crime have proved absolutely groundless.
I wish to refer to the numbers and to provide some perspective for the benefit of Members, who might be surprised to learn that in the last year of the previous Conservative government, 1996-97, the gross revenue expenditure on policing services was £6.907 billion. Last year it was £12.887 billion. Those are cash figures that do not take account of inflation. But there has been a doubling in the gross revenue expenditure on police services since 1997. I am glad to see the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) in his place; he is an immensely distinguished and wise Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, which has drawn attention to the statistic that I have just produced.
The very idea that a very tight, and necessarily tight, spending settlement will result in the ceiling falling in, in neighbourhood policing collapsing and in crime going up is fatuous. We have seen in cash terms a doubling in fewer than 20 years. Although policing has got more sophisticated and there are no doubt many greater demands on some parts of our police constabulary, it is still beyond belief to think that these are “savage Tory cuts”. That is the stuff of caricature and we should have no more of it.
If one looks at the Home Office core grant—not the overall spend—one will see that in the last year of the Labour government, 2009-10, the core grant was £4.606 billion. This year it is £4.583 billion. I would not think that that is the kind of reduction in core grant that will lead to a diminution in the efficiency of the police. If anything, it should drive up efficiency and productivity. I repeat; Labour, in this debate and before it, has so far as I am aware—I am sure the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington will correct me after the debate—not promised to reverse those necessary reductions.
Andrew Bridgen
My hon. Friend talks about reductions. In my county of Leicestershire, recorded crime is down by 25% since 2010.
Mr Ruffley
Those are truly heroic figures and great testimony to the police men and women in the Leicestershire constabulary, to the police and crime panel and to the police and crime commissioner. I have no doubt also that my hon. Friend spends a great deal of time scrutinising and holding the police service in his constituency to account, as do I with my Suffolk colleagues.
In the last year of the Labour Government, Suffolk constabulary, to be parochial just for one moment, saw a principal formula of £41,498,000—again, these are cash figures. In 2014-15, that is projected to rise in cash terms to—wait for this, Madam Deputy Speaker—£43,627,000. If we add in council tax support funding, specific grants and the business rate contribution, which has latterly taken over from the revenue support grant, the total general and specific grants received by Suffolk constabulary in the last year of the Labour Government amounted to £70,969,000. In 2014-15—the year that is the subject of this debate on the grant settlement—the figure is £77,915,000. Total funding for Suffolk in the last year of the Labour Government was £110,335,000; in 2014-15 that will rise to £116,579,000.
I give those details simply to illustrate that this caricature of cuts really does not wash. Although we had 51,000 recorded crimes 10 years ago, Suffolk constabulary posted 38,000 crimes in 2013—a significant fall in our county. Policemen and women in Suffolk deserve the credit for that, which is proof—if proof were needed—that they are doing more and being more productive, against a very tight financial backdrop.
We have had a great deal of shroud waving today and heard a lot of criticism of what should really be a source of celebration—the most modernising package of police reform in over half a century and a clear-eyed and immensely capable Home Secretary seeing through this difficult agenda with much less hostility, criticism and obstruction than anyone would have predicted before the last election. It is in that spirit of purposeful reform, which is embodied in my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, that I conclude my remarks.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
It is a real pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley), who is very knowledgeable about these matters. When he was shadow policing Minister—I remember him speaking from the Dispatch Box—he was one of those who always welcomed any increase in the police grant, recognising the huge importance of the police service to our country.
The hon. Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) keeps referring to “his” county of Leicestershire—a bit greedily, I think. I am going to borrow a bit of it, because I represent a tiny proportion, compared with the large chunk that he represents. We are very proud of our police service in our county of Leicestershire. I want to give the House an example of why we are so proud of the people in our police service. Recently, PC Martin Bentley won a bravery award, for which he was nominated by the Leicestershire Police Federation. He was stabbed and slashed several times and needed 16 stitches and skin grafts, but he still went on to make the arrest.
The policing Minister was present with me and others, including the Home Secretary and the shadow policing Minister, at the bravery awards, where we recognised the huge contribution that members of the police service make—individual men and women, who every day of their lives put their lives on the line for us all. We have talked a lot in this debate about statistics, and the millions and billions of pounds being spent on the police service, but it is those individuals who go the extra mile and protect the public.
It is also right to recognise the contribution made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), who is probably the mother of neighbourhood policing. I am not clear whether the father was Tony Blair or Jacqui Smith—I do not want to go down that line—[Interruption.] I will take your advice, Madam Deputy Speaker. In my right hon. Friend’s time as policing Minister, she established an important principle which is with us today. No matter what we talk about in the Westminster village—whether it is about these great changes that are being made or anything else—it is what happens in the neighbourhoods, on the streets and in the villages, towns and cities of our country that matters the most; and I am afraid that this is where we have a problem with the police grant.
I am worried that the sum of money now available to the police service up and down the country is giving us a great deal of concern. I am also worried that morale in the police service is regarded as at its lowest in its history. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) would want to highlight the work of the Stevens inquiry. I accept that Government Members do not regard it as an independent commission or an all-singing, all-dancing royal commission—even though it is headed by someone as distinguished as Lord Stevens—but one of the facts that came out of the Stevens report was the low morale.
My worry is that if we embark on any further reductions in funding, it will affect the morale of the police force. I will come to the changes in the policing landscape—the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds was absolutely right about the revolution in policing and police management that we have seen under this Home Secretary—but no matter what we say about that, I do not feel that ordinary bobbies on the beat feel that they have been consulted enough about the massive changes that have occurred. Alongside that is the reduction in their pay and pensions. Hon. Members only have to walk around the Westminster estate and talk to any police officer about how they feel about the present state of the police service and most of them will say, sadly, that they cannot wait to be out of the service because it has changed so much. We as politicians need to recognise that the people who count—the people who deliver, in our neighbourhoods and our towns and cities—feel that they have not been consulted.
Mr Ruffley
If morale and the terms and conditions are as bad as the right hon. Gentleman seems to be saying, is that at all reflected in the numbers of young men and women seeking to join the police service? How is recruitment going?
Keith Vaz
That is a very interesting point. I do not know, but I understand that recruitment is not going terrifically well in certain areas of the country, although it is in some. That is why I am concerned about the £1,000 that people have to pay for the certificate in policing. I will be interested to hear what the Minister has to say about recruitment when he sums up. Of course, rather than young people joining the service, I am talking about very experienced people who want to get out. We need to take that into consideration.
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
I am sure that my right hon. Friend and our Front-Bench spokesman, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey), would agree that when we meet the police in the west midlands—and we have done so regularly over the years—we have seen that there is a morale problem. The police seem to be used as a political football these days and although we might well quote statistics and figures about how much is being spent on them, at the end of the day when somebody’s pensions, wages and conditions are attacked that is asking for a problem. There is no doubt that there is a major morale problem in the West Midlands police. The other problem is that a city such as Coventry will have a senior police officer for three or four years and just as the public get to know who they are they go off to another post. That cannot be right either.
Keith Vaz
I agree absolutely with my hon. Friend. That is an issue we must deal with and Ministers must engage with the police service much more than they have done.
I agree 100% with the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds about the revolution in policing. I am not sure that I can get away with being quite as nice to the Home Secretary as the hon. Gentleman was, given that I am an Opposition Member of Parliament. I cannot show favouritism because the Home Secretary appears before our Committee—that of the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) and myself—on a number of occasions and I must be independent. I agree that there has been a revolution in policing and I am on the record as supporting what the Government have done.
If there was a fault of the previous Government, who presided over a golden age in policing in the amount of money given, it was that no questions were asked and no reforms were required. There was a very large cheque—of course, the shadow Minister was not a Member then—
Keith Vaz
It was not. A very large cheque was given but nothing was received in return by way of reform.
The creation of the NCA and the College of Policing and the abolition of the National Policing Improvement Agency, which I do not think functioned particularly well, and of the Serious Organised Crime Agency are examples of where the Government have got it absolutely right. We have a new landscape of policing, but I wonder whether this is the time to go ahead with such widespread cuts while knowing that to get the new structure up and running successfully it must be well resourced. The worst possible thing is to have new structures without providing the money that is necessary for them to do their job. I hope that if those organisations require additional resources they will be given them.
I bumped into Keith Bristow recently as he was coming out of the Home Secretary’s office and I reminded him that he had not appeared before the Committee for a while. He told me of all the NCA’s successes. He is very much a hands-on person and will go on operations, and he invited the Select Committee to join him on an NCA operation. The problem with SOCA was that we never knew what it was doing as well as we know what Keith Bristow and the NCA are doing. Why? Members of the NCA tell the press that they are going to raid someone and everyone turns up and we all know the good work that the agency is doing.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way on the critical subject of the NCA, and I welcome the information it provides. In Northern Ireland, we are significantly handicapped by the fact that the necessary measures have not been implemented to allow the agency to operate in Northern Ireland. The border stops at Stranraer and Liverpool for us because the Northern Ireland Assembly has failed to agree a way forward for the agency’s operation. Does he agree that this House must get to grips with that and protect all its citizens all the time?
Keith Vaz
I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I went to Belfast on his invitation, where I met Matt Baggott, to whom I pay tribute as I understand that he has just announced that he will leave the police after many years of service. It is right that the NCA should cover the whole of the United Kingdom and we should not have a situation in which a separate deal must be made with the Police Service of Northern Ireland. I hope that the hon. Gentleman and the Chairman of the Committee for Justice in his Assembly will persist in their efforts to ensure that the NCA covers the whole of Northern Ireland.
I say to the Minister—I know that he is deep in conversation with the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose)—
The Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty's Treasury (John Penrose)
We are listening.
Keith Vaz
It is not possible to listen and talk at the same time, distinguished though the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare is. Perhaps they are talking about his promotion, and I congratulate him on his re-promotion to the Front Bench. We will miss him on the Administration Committee and in all the important work we have to do there.
Let me give a couple of quotes. Tony Lloyd, a police and crime commissioner, has said that the police are
“on the edge of a cliff”
after £100 million of cuts. Sir Peter Fahy, a distinguished chief constable, who is not elected, has said that 700 police posts will go, reducing his force to 6,400 officers. I have a rather remarkable quote from the chief constable of South Yorkshire, David Crompton, who said:
“Contrary to popular opinion the force doesn’t deal with crime for the majority of time—less than a quarter of what we deal with is crime…while we are spending time on these things we can’t spend as much time as we might want to on crime.”
What do the officers of South Yorkshire spend 75% of their time on? We need to know that. Chief constables are concerned about these reductions and we need to listen to what they say.
The Minister and the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds referred to the reduction in crime, which I welcome. It is a good thing when crime goes down, but I am worried about what has been unearthed by the Public Administration Committee, which is the concern expressed by a number of its witnesses that crime statistics are not as accurate as they should be. That is something that Ministers should look at.
Richard Drax
I welcome the fact that crime is falling statistically, but I hear—certainly in my constituency—that many people are not reporting it, in many cases not because the police do not do a good job but because those who have experienced crime feel that action will not be taken.
Keith Vaz
That is a serious issue. People may feel that they cannot access police officers in the way they have done, so they do not report crime. We need to consider this issue when we look at the crime reduction figures. We should be encouraging our constituents to report those crimes, enabling the police to log them and explain what happens to them.
I hope that there is enough in the budget for new technology. I know that this is a feature of what the Minister is hoping to do: better collaboration, making sure that there are economies of scale. When the Select Committee considered procurement two years ago, it felt that the Home Office should produce a catalogue of best deals for local police forces. We named it after the previous permanent secretary and called it the Ghosh list, but she left shortly after, so we decided to name it the Sedwill list, after the current permanent secretary. There are no plans for him to leave. It is important that the Home Office looks at procurement issues. Only this week, the Select Committee visited the Metropolitan police firearms unit. We were all encouraged to take up firearms and shoot at targets to see how difficult it was for officers. I am afraid that it was more Austin Powers than James Bond for the Committee, but it gave us a flavour of what officers have to go through. One point made by the assistant commissioner, Mark Rowley, was his desire and that of the commissioner to have police officers wear cameras.
Keith Vaz
The Minister nods in agreement. That is a good idea, but that will cost more money, and I am not sure that the grant will cover the ambitions that the Minister and we all have to ensure that our police service is properly equipped.
The new landscape is welcome. The cuts have probably gone as far as they should have done. I want to see better engagement with the police service. We have a debate tomorrow on the Police Federation, but that is a separate issue. At the end of the day, policing is about what happens locally, and if local people and local police feel that they are not being well served, that is a problem for all of us.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
I now have to announce the result of the deferred Division on the motion relating to the draft Public Bodies Order. The Ayes were 289 and the Noes were 203, so the Question was agreed to.
[The Division list is published at the end of today’s debates.]
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
It is, as ever, a pleasure to follow the Chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee. I recommend membership of that Committee, if only for the chance to see the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) brandishing a firearm in a training exercise. There were photos of that.
I have some sympathy with the shadow Minister, because before I was elected to this place I was leader of the opposition on Cambridgeshire county council. It is incredibly tempting simply to say, “I would do everything better and I would spend more money on it,” without identifying what would be done better and particularly where the money would come from. On the council I forced my own group to make our annual proposals go through the same scrutiny process as the administration did, so that we would be forced to work out where the money would come from to pay for what we wanted to do. That meant that our proposals were far more coherent and were at least plausible ways of doing things.
While I have some sympathy with the shadow Minister, who said encouragingly that Labour would, in principle, spend more, without specifying how much more or where it would come from, I also have a sense of déjà vu. So far as I can recall, every year when we have had this debate—at least in the current Parliament—Opposition Members have made similar comments. They have said that too little money is being spent, and that we are about to see a huge increase in crime as a result. Every year, when crime has not increased, it has been suggested that it is about to increase, and that we simply need to wait a little longer.
Dr Huppert
I hope that the hon. Gentleman, to whom I shall give way in a moment, will accept that we have, in fact, seen a reduction in crime, whether it is measured by police reporting or by the crime survey.
Jack Dromey
Let me make it absolutely clear that what the Opposition have said from the outset is that economies are necessary and can be achieved, and that we accepted expert advice on the 12% figure. The hon. Gentleman is part of a Government who have imposed a 20% cut. Has he apologised to those who elected him on the basis that he was going to put an additional 3,000 police officers on the beat?
Dr Huppert
Even in that intervention, the hon. Gentleman very carefully avoided saying where he would get the extra money. I think that we would all love to have more money to spend on policing, and, indeed, on almost everything that a Government do; the problem is where that money is to come from.
The hon. Gentleman also missed an opportunity to intervene earlier—this is relevant to the point that he raised just now—in order to congratulate Cambridgeshire constabulary, which in 2012-13 recruited 72 constables and 13 officers who transferred themselves to the area. I have not scaled up that number to cover the whole country, but it shows what can be achieved. I feel no need to apologise to the people of Cambridgeshire for the fact that we have been recruiting those extra police, and have been able to protect the front line in the county. The hon. Gentleman is welcome to intervene again to give a clearer view of what he would cut in order to raise the extra money, but if he does not wish to do so, I shall move on to the more substantive aspects of the debate.
Let me begin by paying a tribute, which I think all Members would echo, to the work done by the vast majority of the police. They do a fantastic job day in, day out. Some times are easier than others, but most times are quite tough for police officers. It is a very hard job and it makes a big difference to people’s lives, whether it involves directly combating crime and catching criminals, or the much broader role that police officers play. I have always welcomed community policing, although I must say that I was slightly concerned when, back in the days when I was a councillor, one of the best community beat officers in my constituency, who had managed to halve the crime level in a single year, was given a reprimand for not arresting enough people. I think that that was target-driven rather than being particularly sensible.
As I have said, the police in general do a fantastic job, and they feel let down by the few officers who behave badly. A number of officers have spoken to me directly about some of the issues that we explored in the Select Committee, such as Plebgate, and have told me that they are ashamed to wear the same uniform as some of those involved. Those officers deserve better. According to recent reports, in the last few years there have been more than 2,000 cases of officers and staff breaching data protection rules, in some instances by looking at the police national computer. Those officers constitute only a small fraction of the total force, and like most police officers, I wish that they would behave much better.
We are lucky in this country to have such good policing, and to have a core of policing by consent. I hope that that continues, because I am not at all keen on the idea of increasing militarisation in the police. For that reason I am concerned about Tasers, although they are a subject for another debate. Policing by consent—the sort of policing that we have here—is not just about throwing money at problems, and it is not just about passing more and more laws to make more and more actions criminal offences; it is about giving communities a say, and working closely with them. We need the police to work as part of the community, and for the community.
Richard Drax
The hon. Gentleman has just mentioned Tasers, and said that they were a subject for a debate on another day. I wonder whether he has ever faced two or three completely drunk hooligans at three o’clock in the morning with no more protection than a protective vest.
Dr Huppert
As it happens, I had very similar experiences when I was an ambulance technician with St John Ambulance. One of the things we did in order to increase our safety was try to make it clear that we were not playing any form of quasi-militaristic role, and that the role that we were playing was much more relaxed. I worry about the message that is sent to people who see something that looks like a firearm and is used like a firearm. I agree that there is a place for Tasers as a less lethal option, but I do not think that they should be rolled out for basic use. That is a subject for another debate, however.
The police work very well. The establishment of the College of Policing is one of the best things that the Government have done in this area. It will make it much easier for policing to become a more established profession and for the police to work with a proper evidence base and a more effective way of sharing and developing information. That will follow on from the work that is already being done to reduce crime despite tight budgets.
When times are tough, it is even more important to do things that actually work to reduce crime and the fear of crime, rather than things that merely work anecdotally. A huge amount of research has been done in this area, and I pay tribute to the work of Professor Larry Sherman at the institute of criminology at Cambridge university. He is a member of the board of the College of Policing, and he has done a great deal of work on what actually makes a difference in reducing crime. How we place police officers and how we move them around a city can make a difference, for example. He has also produced proposals relating to crime harm indices. Where his proposals have been tried, they have been very effective in reducing crime. That is the sort of lesson that the college should be developing and that we should all be trying to follow.
We should also look at other ways of reducing crime. Providing more support to people serving very short sentences is a really good thing, for example. We know that some people reoffend repeatedly, and it is more efficient to invest in reducing their reoffending than to invest in catching them and dealing with them afterwards. I am also pleased to see a drive towards the use of more technology. It is far more helpful to get police officers to go out and do their job, as they want to do, rather than fighting technological problems. The police are far happier when that happens. I have spent time with a police officer, and I will never forget that it took more than an hour to download a video from a shoulder-mounted camera because of technological problems. That was an hour that could have been much better spent.
We should also give the police much more flexibility to innovate. An example is a scheme in my constituency known as “lights instead of tickets”. Cyclists who cycle without lights are given seven days to buy lights to avoid paying a fine. That has led to a huge number of people acquiring lights, which is far better than a huge number of people paying a fine and continuing to cycle without lights.
We can also ensure that money is spent more usefully by focusing on the more serious crimes. I will not go into detail, but the Deputy Prime Minister has suggested certain reforms of our drugs policy. The Home Affairs Select Committee has also found that we could do as Portugal has done, in transferring effort and money from the police and criminal justice system to the health service to help to reduce addiction. Similarly, we could reduce the stop and search that does not lead to arrests. That would save police time and free up the police to get on with other things.
Perhaps the Minister could give us an update on the reforms of stop and search. Such reforms are important because they relate to trust in the police. Certain communities start to lose trust in the police because of stop and search and, in my view, because of increasing Taser use. That lack of community interaction is a problem. It leads to distrust and makes it harder for the police to find out what is happening. It makes people work against the police rather than with them.
We could also do much more to help the police by sharing information, although that must obviously be done carefully. The Select Committee has recommended asking hospitals to share non-confidential information—about numbers of incidents, for example—with the police more often. There have been some good pilot models of that, but they do not happen often enough. The public could also have more information. The data available from police.uk is helpful, but we could go further in that regard. Indeed, Professor Sherman has some ideas on how to engage communities and give them real information about what is going on. Such data also need to include hate crime, which should not be considered separately from the main national crime statistics.
The whole information drive is important, but we do not always use the most up-to-date information. I hope that the Minister will comment on this. I note that some of the figures in the report on the police grant have used the 2001 census data. I represent a county that is growing rapidly, and I hope that we can move to using more modern censuses, because we are already facing issues based on the present population, not the one we had in 2001.
The subject of saving money has been discussed at length. I am pleased that the proposed expenditure of £1.8 billion on the communications data Bill will now be available for other policing. When I asked the Met commissioner how he would use that amount of money over 10 years, he said that he would use it to get more neighbourhood policing, more technology and more training. I am pleased that we are able to do that, rather than spending it on the original proposals.
The finances are tight. We would all love to have more money available to spend on absolutely everything, but it is a great tribute to the police that despite times being tough, crime continues to fall. I hope that that will continue for a very long time to come and that we will see more effective use of our wonderful police.
Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert). It is fair to say that we do not always see eye to eye on a range of issues, but it is always interesting to listen to his point of view, which is always well backed up by a scientific approach that he embraces—I find it very useful indeed.
I rarely speak in the House at length on policing issues, partly because I spent three years as police Minister and I do not think that reprising my experience is terribly helpful for Members in that same role. Today, however, I have made an exception, because I am becoming increasingly worried about the direction of travel of our police service. Part of my concern is about finance, but many of my concerns are about the stresses and strains on neighbourhood policing. This is not particularly about my introducing neighbourhood policing; this is about neighbourhood policing being such a fundamental change to the way in which we did policing in this country. I say to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee that there was reform during our period of government, and neighbourhood policing was the biggest bit of reform that we introduced. It is now established not only in this country—for all time, I hope—but increasingly in other European countries and countries across the world, where it is recognised that sustainable policing must be done with people, not to them. It must be done with consent, gathering the community around who then become the eyes and ears of the police. Much more intelligence is obtained that way, and the police become far more effective in fighting crime.
Convincing the police service that neighbourhood policing was not a fuzzy, warm community development project but a hard-headed reform to make the police service more effective was quite a job in changing culture. I well remember that when I started talking to chief constables about neighbourhood policing and how we needed to build relationships—to get to know the head teacher, the shopkeepers, the children and the people in the community—some of them looked at me as though I was from Relate marriage guidance, talking to them about relationships. When I hear our shadow Minister talking in the House today about the need to have relationships, it shows how far we have moved on police culture—recognising that relationships are often far more useful than the traditional tools of policing.
I am speaking in this debate because I am very concerned about what is happening to our police service. Greater Manchester’s force has had a fantastic record over the past 10 to 15 years, but we are now seeing cuts totalling about £135 million over the five-year period between 2011 to 2015, and already 1,000 police officers have had to go. Sir Peter Fahy, who is a very respected chief constable, just as he was when he was at Cheshire during my time as Minister, and who is scrupulously non-partisan and non-political, has said:
“When I took the post the force had 8,200 officers and it is now just below 7,000. We are now on our way to 6,400—and that’s incredibly painful.”
Sir Peter Fahy is not a man to cry wolf and everyone in the House should take notice when he says that this process is incredibly painful.
It is fair to say that crime, antisocial behaviour, drugs and family breakdown were the scourge of our community of Salford and Eccles 15 years ago. It was incredibly difficult to attract business and investment to the city because of the huge amount of crime that was going on. People did not feel that the police were in control of the neighbourhoods; they felt that the criminal gangs were in control of the neighbourhoods in my city. That caused massive unemployment and a huge amount of family disintegration. Some 15 years ago my city was in a terrible state, but the fact that we have a grip of crime is the most fundamental reason why it has become a much better place to live. It is why we have been able to attract investment, such as the MediaCityUK—home to the BBC and ITV—and the regeneration programmes we have seen happen. It is one of the reasons why we had, until recently, the fastest falling level of youth unemployment in the whole north-west and why we get £200 million from visitors to Salford—who would ever have thought that it would be a tourist destination, with people wanting to come to our city? It is also why we have more people employed in the MediaCityUK area than we had when it was at its height as a docks.
Those are amazing transformations. Probably the single biggest issue was getting a grip of crime, making people feel safe in their homes, and tackling drugs and some of the serious and organised crime gangs that we had in Salford. We have been incredibly successful. Yes, the figures over the past three years have continued to be good on some of those crimes, but they are not as good as they were on burglary—we saw burglary go down by 54%—and some of the other crimes.
I saw a worrying statistic from Greater Manchester police this week which showed that antisocial behaviour has started to creep back up. Antisocial behaviour, before it was even defined by the previous Labour Government, was sometimes dismissed as petty or low-level crime—the sort of crime that we almost have to accept if we live in an inner-city environment. We had a massive drive to tackle antisocial behaviour, with a whole new set of powers and the Respect campaign. We said that we wanted to be on the side of decent people in communities and to drive out the antisocial behaviour that made people’s lives such a misery. There was long-term harassment and really serious crime, which could not be dismissed as low-level incidents.
Huge warning bells ring for me when I see a statistic that shows that that sort of crime is now beginning to break through again. I look at some of the evidence around the statistics, the veracity of which people are beginning to question. Lord Stevens has said that we could be on a tipping point for another rise in crime. If we start to see crime rise again in places such as Salford and Eccles, all of that good work over the past 10 to 15 years will be at risk. The business investment will be at risk. People will feel that it is not the kind of community in which they want to live. I am absolutely determined not to say that we need more money. I have no doubt that the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) will ask me the same question he asked my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey). Yes, money is tight, and that means that hard decisions must be made. I would have supported a 12% cut, not a 20% cut, but we could argue that for the whole afternoon. There were things we could have done through collaboration and better procurement. Those were all on our agenda for making those cuts. In hard times, we have to use creativity, innovation and imagination. I am afraid that I am not seeing enough of that in the present Government’s approach.
When I was Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, I used to say to local government that, in order to face the coming years of austerity, we would have to have community budgets and a Total Place organisation in which all the public sector pooled its budgets, rationalised its inspection regimes, shared the same targets and had a system whereby all that public money, whether it was for policing, regeneration or whatever, was in the same pot. We thought that that was the way to survive these years of austerity without having an absolutely disastrous effect on our public services. We said that to local government, and if I get a chance in the next debate, I will reinforce these matters for the Secretary of State.
Local government has stepped up to the plate. The 10 authorities in the Association of Greater Manchester Authorities have a community budget; they are pooling resources. The police in my area have co-location with the local authority, the health service and mental health. We have a system of sharing information, which is the multi-agency system for data sharing. It is in that way that we have been able to survive some of the tremendous cuts.
The Minister will know about Operation Gulf in Salford, which has been going on for three years. It tackles the serious crime gangs—there are at least 32 of them—and it has had amazing success. It has won the Home Office national award for an operation over the past two years. Much to my delight it has put some serious criminals behind bars for a good number of years, and it has done that because it has used smart policing, imagination and creativity. It has taken the Al Capone approach: if we cannot get the criminals on the particular crime we want them for, we can get them on money laundering, employing illegal immigrants and not having tax on their cars. The police can be in their face every single day of the week, and that is the way we get results. They have been able to do that because they have had co-operation from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, the local authority, the Department for Work and Pensions, the mental health services and every other bit of the system. That is the kind of creativity that is required now and over the next few years. It would mean central Government saying to local government, “Get your act together. Pool your resources. Get yourself in shape. Line yourself up. Have a strategic objective, and that is how you make an impact.”
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
It is fascinating to listen to my right hon. Friend speak on this subject. When we talk about how to provide policing at a time of great cuts, we must also consider the creativity that will be necessary in rural areas. Does she agree that rural police forces will need to get together and think creatively?
Hazel Blears
I do indeed. Part of the challenge facing police services is the need to deliver in many different environments and circumstances. We must consider sparsity and the difficulty of travel. In more rural areas, for example, the need for technology and communications is perhaps even greater than it is in concentrated inner-city areas. Again, creativity in the use of technology is really important.
In Greater Manchester we now have this top-slice application to the innovation fund. The chief constable is working on redesigning Greater Manchester police to see how we can get through the next few years, and I absolutely support him in that. In the process, he has taken one of my superintendents, Wayne Miller, off my Salford beat. I wish Wayne well in his new role in that change project. I want to place on the record the fact that he has been a tremendous superintendent. He brings with him real hands-on experience of neighbourhood and community policing and will make a great contribution to the plans for the future.
My chief superintendent, Kevin Mulligan, has recently retired. He was the architect of Operation Gulf. He is a fantastic, hands-on police officer who has done a tremendous job. He has made several arrests on his own and goes out policing on new year’s eve and Christmas eve—that is the kind of dedicated officer he is.
I spent a good period of time with our new chief superintendent last Friday. Chief Superintendent Mary Doyle is an incredibly impressive woman in Greater Manchester police. I have no doubt that she is up to the challenge of policing Salford and Eccles, with all the issues we face. She has also been given Trafford, so she now has double the number of people to look after and try to keep safe in our area, double the number of police officers to lead and double the number of police staff. She will be looking after 450,000 people, so her job is actually bigger than that of looking after the centre of Manchester, which has its own chief superintendent. I am worried about that. When we talk about the thin blue line being stretched, we also need to think about leadership capacity, because if we are to be creative and to do innovative things, we need really strong leadership. Chief Superintendent Mary Doyle, impressive though she is, will have her work cut out to try to take policing forward in our city.
What I think really needs to happen is something I raised with the Minister earlier. When we introduced neighbourhood policing, there was extra money available, so in some forces neighbourhood policing was layered on top of the existing response capacity. I hope that the Minister will consider integrating response policing with neighbourhood policing. Yes, we need response policing, because we need to have someone in a vehicle who can go and sort out a particular incident, but the way that they hand over the incident to the neighbourhood team is a misuse of resources. Getting the response police officers to own the neighbourhood as much as the neighbourhood police officers do would enable us to get more for less.
We recently decided to put our criminal investigation department officers out as part of the neighbourhood teams. That was incredibly controversial, because CID officers are not used to that role. However, it has made a really big difference, because our neighbourhood teams now include the people who are good at community and the CID detectives. If we get the response people in there as well, we will have a range of resources that we can draw upon, even when numbers are shrinking, to enable that extra capacity. I ask the Minister to look at some of the things Greater Manchester police have been doing to try to get that capacity to go further.
What I would say to central Government, and I say it to the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, is that five years ago I said to the then Cabinet Secretary, Gus O’Donnell, that I was amazed that the success of a Cabinet Minister is judged by how big their budget is, how big their legislation is, and how big a beast they are in the Cabinet jungle. The new world requires people to be collaborative. Why do not several Cabinet Ministers have jointly shared budgets? Why are they not incentivised to collaborate? Why are they not judged on their success in terms of their ability to do teamwork? Why do we still have so many silos in central Government? When we said to local government, “You’ve got to break down your silos”, people there stepped up to the plate. It is about time that we changed the way in which national Government works so that my success as, say, Education Secretary is dependent on another Minister’s success as Justice Secretary or Home Secretary.
At the end of the day, the people who use the public services the most are all from the same families. We know this from the troubled families project, which is making a difference but is still primarily run by one Department. Why do we not have joint commissioning of the services we need to be able to deal with all those families? I could tell Members here and now the top 20 or 30 families in Salford and Eccles who use public services disproportionately, whether it be the police, education or the national health service. That is why we need joint commissioning systems, incentives to collaborate, and, I hope, an end to the days of stand-off bilaterals between Cabinet Ministers who simply seek to protect their own empire and their own Department rather than being prepared to collaborate for the greater good.
My final point is about reform. I am never short of ideas about reform and I like to talk about it. I remember that somebody once said that we are at our best when we are at our boldest, and I have never forgotten that. I make this plea to the Minister and to all Ministers involved in public services. If they want to get the best out of people and to get innovation and change, and if they want to get more for less, they have to be prepared to empower the people at the front line—the people in the service—to be able to make that change. There is a culture in Government—I do not make any allegation in respect of any individual Minister—of keeping power at the centre despite fine words about localism. It is about time that central Government acted in a way where they modelled good behaviour, as any good leader is required to do. If we want to survive these next few years, the funds are inevitably going to be less, whichever Government are in power, and therefore central Government must take a lead in being innovative, creative, collaborative and independent, just as on the board of any company where the directors would be collaborating together for the greater good. I urge the Minister to take that message back to the Home Secretary, and perhaps he could be the champion of innovation and change at the centre.
Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)
I am grateful to be called to speak in this debate, and it is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). My tone will be as balanced as hers and that of the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), who made a very thoughtful speech, as he always does.
The Minister, who has kindly sat through all the speeches, has heard me speak before about the issue I am going to raise. I hope he does not raise his eyebrows to the roof and say, “Oh dear, here comes Drax again”, but I am afraid I am going to raise it anyway because my job is to stand up for my constituents and for my police force in Dorset, which does an outstanding job. I pay credit to the outgoing chief constable, Martin Baker, who has been replaced by an another outstanding chief constable, Debbie Simpson. They have both galvanised Dorset police. They have collaborated and they have saved: they have done everything they could in the years before this spending review came in and since. We are now down to the bone. I will be parochial in the sense that I will focus my comments on Dorset police and not the police nationally.
I am grateful to our new police and crime commissioner, Martyn Underhill, for a lot of the information that I am going to give—I say “a lot”, but it is not that much and I will not take long—and I concur with his views and concerns. First, it is only fair that I praise the brave men and women of Dorset police; everyone who has spoken has done likewise. We cannot overestimate the courage that these men and women continually show to keep us safe on the streets and at home. While we are all tucked up in bed, many of them are out patrolling the streets at night and tackling some pretty ferocious people while armed with not much more than a protective jacket and occasionally with a Taser if needed.
The comprehensive spending review indicated or demanded savings of 20%. As we have heard, savings across all forces in 2014-15 will be 3.3%. For Dorset, that means a loss of £3.1 million. As has also been mentioned, taking into account the top-slicing in such areas as the police innovation fund and the Independent Police Complaints Commission, Dorset must make savings of 4.8%, which equates to well over £4 million. The point for the Minister is that that will once again place Dorset at the bottom of the pile. I simply cannot repeat it enough. I shall say it again—at the bottom of the pile.
Last year, the formula funding per head in Dorset was the lowest in the land. The needs-based funding formula for policing, which is supposed to determine how much each area receives, has never been properly implemented. Since 2010, Dorset police has been short-changed to the tune of £11 million. In real terms, the figure is a lot more. Last year, Dorset lost more officers and staff in proportion to other forces across the country—a full 6%. During the entire period of the CSR, Dorset will have lost 400 posts.
Whenever I mention or hear the dreadful word “damping”, I cannot help thinking of that awful thing that creeps up from the floor, ruins the walls and costs people a fortune in redecorating their house, but that is the technical jargon. Under damping, each force faces the same reduction in core Government funding in 2014-15, which will exacerbate the inequities that already exist in Dorset.
Let me say to the Minister—if he will stop talking to his Whips—that this situation in Dorset simply cannot go on for ever. Because of its size, topography and population centres, Dorset faces unique police challenges. The county is almost evenly split, with one half living in a large conurbation, and the other half scattered across rural communities. The two halves require substantially different forms of policing. In addition, we have tourism and the night-time economy. I know that many other constituencies have them too, but I am proud to say that Dorset is one of the most beautiful counties in the country. We attract 14 million tourists every year. The thriving night-time economy has grown, as it has in so many other parts of the country, and it requires a significant police presence all year round. One would have thought that those two aspects would be included in a common-sense funding formula, but they are not.
I was a journalist at the BBC in Dorset for some 10 years and I have spoken—often off the record—to the police wearing a different hat. From talking to officers on a busy Friday night, I know that they are very thin on the ground. There is no doubt about that. Although crime is down, which I of course welcome, the reality away from this place—we are sitting very comfortably on green Benches—is that brave men and women are out there at 3 o’clock in the morning facing the thousands of people, who are often out of control and drunk, coming out of nightclubs and bars. There are very few officers to tackle those thousands of people.
Over the years, I have been told that because there are so few police officers, they dare not get too involved in many incidents, as that would require two or three officers to go back to the cells, and they simply cannot afford to reduce their numbers on the ground. The logical conclusion is that a situation must get very bad before the police will physically intervene, because they do not have the numbers to deal with it. That is not their fault; in such situations, they simply do not have the numbers on the ground.
The formula originally evolved on the basis of a reasonably even level of council tax across the counties and parity in the policing that was delivered. It no longer works. It is perhaps blindingly obvious that a formula that gives one force 80% of its money from central Government and others, such as Dorset, less than half does not stand up to scrutiny.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
I apologise for joining the debate late, Madam Deputy Speaker.
My hon. Friend makes an important point about the effect of the manning formula in places such as our constituencies in Dorset. Does he agree that the manning formula needs to be reconsidered to take account of the number of visitors who come to a place? Bournemouth swells by 15,000 or 20,000 people on a Friday night. That is not taken into consideration, and it places excess pressure on the limited number of police.
Richard Drax
I concur entirely with my hon. Friend. Because there is a demand for more officers at busy times, such as weekends, those officers are not available on other days of the week. Although there is less crime during the day and in the week, it is equally important that police officers are seen at those times.
Council tax can no longer be increased to pay for grant shortfalls. The recent changes by the Department for Communities and Local Government capped increases at 2%. Due to the shortfall in moneys from central Government, Dorset police has set its precept at 1.96% for 2014-15. Surveys of the public show that they generally support that. Mr Underhill and the chief constable are trying to maintain a balance between sustaining a viable police force and not overburdening the taxpayer. The rise will cover essential expenditure, including on 16 extra police officers, seven rural community vehicles, 300 body-worn cameras and a campaign to make people more aware of cybercrime.
The right hon. Member for Leicester East mentioned technology. Although everyone in this House recognises the value of technology, I have some advice for the Minister. I have many friends in the armed services who went to Iraq. There was a huge reliance on the technology that we and the Americans had, but there was no intelligence from people on the ground or “human int.”, as it is called. The result is there for all to see. The west did not understand what was happening on the ground or the consequences of invading a country such as Iraq.
I am sure that there is no intention to invade Dorset, but I draw the comparison because human int. is the key to a successful police force and, more importantly, to tackling crime. Nothing beats seeing police officers on the ground in our constituencies. It happens too rarely, but through no fault of the officers. In the Army, we patrolled around Northern Ireland in groups of 12, day and night. Like police officers, my soldiers brought back valuable information about what they had seen or heard and about what the local hoods were doing, who they were with, what pubs they were visiting and whether they were happy or sad. Such information is crucial in everyday policing.
Unlike the rest of local government, which received a two-year settlement, the police have a provisional finance settlement only for 2014-15. We thought that that would be the last year of savings. I am concerned that they are now likely to continue until 2017-18. It is estimated that Dorset will have to make savings of 3.7% in 2015-16 and 3.5% in each of the following two years, so annual funding will fall from £114.3 million last year to £108.7 million in 2017-18.
The future is bleak in Dorset. I do not like to be negative because I am an optimist. Dorset police is doing everything that it can, but we have been at the bottom of the pile for a long time and the funding formula is grossly unfair to us. Dorset police has identified potentially serious funding problems in 2016-17. Mr Underhill arrived in post and immediately had to face savings of £10 million. He described Dorset police as
“already stripped to the bone.”
Crime figures have fallen nationally and I welcome that—we all do—but calls for assistance and the number of incidents have risen. Despite those pressures, Dorset police has still earned one of the highest levels of public confidence of any police force in the country. But, Minister, enough is enough. For too long, Dorset police has been expected to do more with less. Dorset residents pay the same as, or more than, everyone else in the country, yet they are rewarded with gratuitously low levels of funding for their police. It is to the force’s enduring credit that they have managed so well for so long on so little.
I do not necessarily like speaking so bluntly to the Minister, and certainly not from the Government Benches, but I feel that I have no choice because the situation is so concerning. Dorset police has done all it can, and it continues to look at every possible avenue to provide a better service and better value for money. I agree, in part, with the phrase “value for money”, but if that comes at the cost of losing what I and my constituents want, which is to see police officers on the beat doing the job we want them to do, perhaps value for money should be looked at in a different way. Finally, I ask the Minister to rectify our situation now, before it is too late.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
I apologise for arriving late to the debate, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I am sure you will forgive me because I was at a debate in the other place on the future of the currency in Scotland after 2014, and that is an important issue for us all.
I welcome the reality-check speech by the hon. Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax), and it is important that we pause and carry out a reality check regarding policing budgets in our constituencies and how that affects us. Let me say at the outset that I miss the voice of the former Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East. It was in debates such as this that he really made his mark because he knew the subject so well. His expertise was honed in Northern Ireland when dealing with policing and police infrastructure there, and we miss his wisdom in these debates.
Northern Ireland’s policing is going through a significant change. Our Chief Constable has announced that he intends to step down in September this year after five years of service, which means that we have to open up a new policing competition. No doubt many current deputy chief constables and police chief constables across England, Scotland and Wales will look at the opportunity offered by the job of Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland. Our last three Chief Constables were brought in from services on the mainland, and the position offers a significant opportunity that needs to be strongly considered.
I pay tribute to the service of Matt Baggott and what he brought to policing. He was Mr Community Police Chief Constable, and he brought important principles of community policing into our service and on to the books and activities of our police officers, and we should pay tribute to that. I also pay tribute to our Deputy Chief Constable, Judith Gillespie, who has announced her retirement in the spring this year after 32 years of service. She became the highest-ranking female police officer ever to serve in Northern Ireland, which is a huge credit to her and the service she has given. Indeed, she did not take what could have been a lucrative severance package a few years ago, because she wanted to serve her community instead. That in itself should be marked and paid tribute to.
I want to bring key issues of national significance to the attention of the Minister. The National Crime Agency, under the management of Keith Bristow, is a very important development that we support, and I am glad that the House supports it too. What concerns me gravely is that it is being prevented from having operational power in Northern Ireland, because insufficient pressure has been applied by the Minister, or by his team, on the Northern Ireland Executive to sort this matter out. While there is a significant willingness by Unionist parties and the Alliance party to sort it out, they are being checkmated by the nationalist and republican agenda—indeed, it is those people who benefit from the fact that the NCA is not operational in Northern Ireland. They benefit because some of the people they previously ran with—serious and organised criminals—have a free run as the NCA has not been extended to Northern Ireland. Smuggling, prostitution, cross-border crime are not being ignored, but they are not being given the complete, full and proper attention that the NCA could give.
Importantly, our policing budget is being stretched, because our own police officers have to deal with those issues. I, and many politicians across this House, have met Keith Bristow, and I know the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has met him. He has indicated his willingness to be held to account by the current policing infrastructure in Northern Ireland, so that he can give certainty and transparency to the concerns—some legitimate, many fictitious—that some nationalists have raised. It is important that we put that willingness to be held to account on the record. If the NCA continues to be blocked from operating in Northern Ireland, I echo the words of the Northern Ireland First Minister when he spoke to the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs when it met in Northern Ireland. He said that this House should take the matter by the throat and insist that the NCA is put in place, over the head of the Assembly if necessary. Everyone is suffering as a result of what has happened and we should deal with it.
Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
Does the hon. Gentleman recall that he and I served on the Committee that introduced the NCA? Is he disappointed, as I am, that the assurances of the Minister have not been fulfilled? The comments that the hon. Gentleman is making now are the same as those he made in that Committee.
Ian Paisley
I thank the hon. Lady for saying that. I am delighted that she was listening to me in Committee—I thought we just spoke in this place and that no one actually listened. I am sad that my words were not heeded. We had a commitment from the then Minister with responsibility for policing to get something done and to sort the problem out. Well, it is not sorted out. We have a significant gap in policing national crime. That does not just affect Northern Ireland; it affects what these people do when they export their terrorism here to mainland Britain and on to Europe. We have a national responsibility to sort this matter out, and to sort it out fast.
I was delighted that the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), the Chair of the Select Committee on Home Affairs, was the first Chair of that Committee to visit Northern Ireland for about 20 years. He paid significant attention to this matter and met the Justice Minister at Stormont and the Chairman of our equivalent Select Committee, Mr Paul Givan. He went through the key issues with him and said that he and his Committee wanted to see the NCA operating properly and effectively in Northern Ireland. I will leave that matter with the Minister and I hope he will pick it up.
We have significant national crime problems in Northern Ireland and that is what I want to focus on in the rest of my remarks.
Andrew Percy
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The motion relates to England and Wales and the hon. Gentleman has spoken for a considerable time solely about policing in Northern Ireland. He has just told us that he wishes to go on speaking about Northern Ireland, but the motion in the name of the Secretary of State states:
“That the Police Grant Report (England and Wales)…which was laid before this House…be approved.”
There is no mention of Northern Ireland.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for pointing that out. I am sure the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) was going to come back in order for the debate on the motion.
Ian Paisley
I do not believe that I have strayed from the issue. I have been talking about the National Crime Agency, which operates in the whole United Kingdom and whose budget is decided exclusively by this place—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) might have a bit of a giggle at that, but it is an important issue that affects criminality and how criminals operate in this country. He should know better. A so-called friend of Northern Ireland should know better than to try to raise a frivolous matter in this debate. I am surprised, because it is not a joke.
The National Crime Agency is a national issue, and the big issues of criminality that affect Northern Ireland have implications here. Of the drugs that circulate around Manchester and Liverpool, most of the cannabis is grown in Northern Ireland. Last year, 42 cannabis farms were discovered in Northern Ireland. Most of the trade was not in cannabis dealing or for smoking the drug in Northern Ireland: cannabis was brought to Liverpool on ferries and boats to be used in this part of the country. Hon. Members should wake up to that reality. The National Crime Agency is not operating as effectively as it should be operating in my part of the kingdom, so the hon. Gentleman and his constituents will face problems. He should recognise that. I am angry about that point, and it probably shows. It is just as well that I am on this side of the House and that there is a red line in front of me; I can tell the hon. Gentleman that.
Fuel smuggling is another important issue that is cross-border and cross-jurisdictional. Because of fuel smuggling in Northern Ireland, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the Exchequer here lose £600 million a year. That is not a paltry sum. It is enough to run most of the hospitals in Northern Ireland. That is another national issue that is dealt with by HMRC and should also be dealt with by the National Crime Agency.
I now focus on how we pay to deal with national crime. There are 43 police services operational in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Only the Police Service of Northern Ireland picks up the tab for national security policing in its jurisdiction. That is wrong. That tab should be picked up nationally, in the same way that it is picked up for Manchester and Liverpool, here in London and in Scotland. The fact that it is not is putting policing in Northern Ireland at a significant disadvantage. This year, we are running a deficit of £30 million in policing, and next year that will increase to £57 million. In the next spending round, the figure will rise to about £200 million.
I urge the Minister, when he goes back and speaks to his Cabinet colleagues—the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister—to make the case that this issue should be brought into the centre. Expenditure on dealing with national crime issues and terrorism should be paid for centrally, not locally. If we could get that budget paid for centrally, the current budget for Northern Ireland would allow us to employ the additional police officers that we need.
The Police Federation in Northern Ireland says that we are short of 1,000 officers. The Chief Constable says that he would like to run a competition to get another 300 to 500 officers, so we need to recruit a number of officers that is somewhere in the middle of the two figures. The only way we can achieve that is by addressing the deficit in our budget. None of the other 42 police services operational here is asked to pay for national security. Why are the police in Northern Ireland asked to pay for national security? We are not only dealing with Irish-based terrorism but with national criminality—and with Islamic terrorist activity as well. We pick that tab up too, and that is wrong.
The Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee mentioned additional equipment for police officers and the wearing of cameras. They are expensive, but I believe they are useful and should be routinely deployed on police officers, not only to protect them from false allegations, but to ensure that civilians are protected whenever they come across police officers.
I agree thoroughly with the points made by the hon. Member for South Dorset. He made the point clearly that we need more bobbies on the beat. The more bobbies we have on the beat, the more we will see that they disrupt crime and play a very effective role.
I want to focus on an issue that has left a sour taste in everyone’s mouth—plebgate and its impact. Plebgate has left the police in London looking rather poor because of how officers approached a Member of Parliament. It is important that the employment in the Cabinet of the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell) is remedied soon. This is the appropriate place to make that point.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) who, up until his outburst on me, I considered an hon. Friend—I agree with many of his political positions. He said he would go on to speak about policing in Northern Ireland, and I believe I was perfectly entitled to question whether or not that was in order, particularly because I have been sitting in the Chamber from the beginning of the debate waiting to speak, and because the debate relates to the police grant in England and Wales. That is not to decry our fantastic Union—it is always a pleasure and delight to hear about Northern Ireland—but I am sorry he interpreted my attempts to bring him back to order in such a manner. I am sure we will still be friends.
I shall speak to the report as it relates to England and Wales, and my police force in Humberside, which serves the East Riding of Yorkshire and northern Lincolnshire. I speak on the police grant debate most years. I have always abstained on the budget because of my concern, as previous Ministers have heard, about the scale of the reductions. I fully understand and support the need for reductions, but I am concerned about their scale, particularly as they come at the same time as a change in officers’ terms and conditions, which has had an impact on morale. I shall say more about that later.
I tend to say something about the Labour position every year in such debates. In 2007, police numbers were falling in my area—they fell by 137. [Interruption.] It would be nice if I could hear myself. There seems to be some noise coming from the Government Back Benches.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I will chair the proceedings. If every speaker were heard in utter silence, I would be so pleased, but that rarely happens. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman’s hon. Friends can take note that he is struggling to make himself heard above the noise.
Andrew Percy
I am happy to be ignored in perfect silence or to be heckled, but when the noise is so close, it is a little difficult to hear oneself think. One expects an element of quiet—perhaps it comes with being a schoolteacher. The hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), my neighbour, will concur with the requirement for people to listen in silence.
On the Labour position on policing cuts, 137 officers were cut in 2007 in my area. There was no opposition from Labour representatives at the time. In fact, they supported the reductions and the civilianisation of roles, so I am a little amused when local Labour politicians engage in campaigns against police cuts and reductions in police numbers. They did not have such an issue with them in 2007. I respect the shadow Minister greatly, but I was unclear on the Labour position on funding for our police. He did not rule out cuts—he clearly could not do so given the statements made by the shadow Chancellor—but he did not tell us what the scale of those cuts would be. It is a little unfair for him to be critical of the Government without putting a proper alternative forward.
Jack Dromey
I have great respect for the hon. Gentleman, but let me make myself absolutely clear: the best advice from HMIC was that 12% cuts could be made without impacting on the front line. We accepted that in government and then in opposition, and it has been our position ever since. The problem is that the Government have gone far beyond that, to 20% cuts, and as a consequence we have lost 15,000 police officers, including 10,000 from the front line.
Andrew Percy
We know the argument about whether the figure is really 12% or 14%. Either way, however, Labour has not said how it would pay for it. It has made a range of spending commitments, including repealing various welfare measures, but it has not said how it would pay for them. It is fine to say, “Let’s limit cuts to 12%”, but it is incumbent on the Opposition, who after all aspire to government, to explain how they would pay for it. We did not hear that today.
I am unclear also about neighbourhood policing. In my area, we have seen a move away from neighbourhood policing. We went from ward-based policing—a lot of public money was spent on ward-based police stations that never opened to the public—towards larger local policing teams. That happened before this Government came to power. I heard Labour’s commitment to neighbourhood policing, but we tried it in Humberside, and we have now moved to area-based policing, which has been very effective. It contains elements of neighbourhood policing and best practice, but not quite as originally envisaged.
I concur with colleagues who are unsure whether to believe crime figures—I was critical of them as a local councillor, under the last Government, when major falls were trumpeted—although there has undoubtedly been a fall in crime, particularly in antisocial behaviour. I was a local councillor for 10 years, and it used to be an issue of great concern—there were issues with street corners and public places—but in my experience it has now abated. Nevertheless, I do not believe the crime figures as they are presented, not least because a lot of crime still goes unreported. In addition, there are many crimes that years ago would have been reported, but are not now. I had my car broken into five times in 18 months, but I did not report each crime, as would have happened perhaps 10 or 15 years ago. So although we should welcome the general fall in crime, I do not believe it has fallen as far as is claimed.
Local authorities can have an impact on local policing. We have seen an excellent example of that in north Lincolnshire under the leadership of Liz Redfern, who took over the council from Labour in 2011. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] Absolutely. She pledged to use local council funding to provide additional police community support officers in rural areas so that Humberside police could get on with policing in the urban areas, where the crime statistics showed such policing was necessary. We provided those additional PCSOs through local grants to the police, and only a few weeks ago, I welcomed the new PCSOs, Michelle Thorley and Dan Dreggs, who work out of Epworth and cover the whole of the isle of Axholme. They are doing a great job, funded by the local council.
Despite the massive cuts to local authorities we have heard about, the local council has also provided CCTV funding, and a new CCTV system is now coming into place in Epworth. Moreover, they, along with East Riding of Yorkshire council, have a sharing arrangement with Humberside police for fuel and vehicles, which is to be welcomed, while our police and crime commissioner, Matthew Grove, and his deputy, Paul Robinson, are working on a strategy for sharing buildings, which sometimes involves moving police stations into shared buildings. We must be careful to ensure a continuous presence—we do not want the services diminished—but in fact there is an increasing police presence, and in a couple of weeks a new station will open in my constituency.
The pressure on budgets has led to those developments, which we need to see more of, so I ask the Minister to ensure that funding for local authorities takes account of such innovative practices and working. In my area, Humberside police have received £1 million from the innovation fund to give police officers and PCSOs tablet devices so that they can get out on the front line and be more visible and do their work there, which is to be welcomed. We need funding to support those kinds of measures.
I am working through the 20-day police parliamentary scheme, which the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), my near neighbour, completed a few years ago. I have found that incredibly useful. The weekend before last, I did two night shifts with an instant response team based in Clough road police station in Hull, which covers the eastern part of the city. It was an interesting experience. I have done a number of nights in Grimsby, which was also very interesting, as well as joining public order and traffic patrols in my area. I have been struck by how dedicated staff are, but I have also been struck by how under attack some of them feel. They feel the pressure of reduced resources, as well as changes to terms and conditions and to pensions. I have been very defensive on those, particularly on pensions, on which I have had some robust discussions with police officers.
I am more sympathetic on the issue of how thin the thin blue line can be stretched. I have been uncomfortable with the scale of reductions in spending, although I understand the reasons for them, given the legacy we came to office to deal with. But we have to be careful. We have protection for NHS and school funding. I hope that, in further reductions, we will look closely at policing. In the latest round there has been protection, but we need to move on that. I get a sense from local officers that they are at a point where they can hold the line at the moment, but a small upturn in crime figures might put them under pressure.
I have also been struck by how much of the police work is not actually police work, as has been mentioned. They seem to be massively involved in social work, and in dealing with family disorder and breakdown, alcohol misuse, drug misuse and serious mental health issues. A lot of police officers said to me that they would love to be able to spend their time fighting crime, but they are spending far too much time picking up failings in other services. That must be factored in when we look at the budgets.
Our police service does a fantastic job but I think reform was needed. In my 10 years as a local councillor in Hull, I remember that lots of money was showered on policing locally. Our police precept went up by 500 per cent in the 13 years of the last Government, and a lot of buildings were built that were not open to the public. A lot of money was thrown at initiatives that were not necessarily well thought through or assessed for their effectiveness. It was a question of “There is a problem. Let us throw some money at it and hope it works.” In lots of cases, it did not work. There was a huge waste of money and we are still dealing with the legacy of some of those issues, including the buildings that were built as part of Humberside police authority’s massive expansion programme of police stations that were never open to the public.
Money is not the answer to everything. We know that and I think the Government are going in the right direction in terms of trying to promote innovation. However, we have to be conscious of the fact that we are potentially getting to a point in policing where the line has been stretched very thin and we need to be careful in moving forward. I fear that if there is an upturn in crime any time soon, we may well not be able to respond as we would want to.
Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
My hon. Friend mentioned the police and crime commissioner. Does he agree that we have seen a fundamental shift from a policing service that was too often looking to Whitehall to one that is grounded in the local community? Does he also agree that Matthew Grove in our area has done a great job of making sure that the police meet local needs, albeit they are struggling with limited resources?
Andrew Percy
Yes, I agree entirely. I shall end with the point that we need to look at whether the PCCs can take over the role of the fire authority as well and try to bring both services together.
Damian Green
With the leave of the House, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will try to respond to some, although inevitably not all, of the points made in what has been a very lively and positive debate. I understand that there are concerns about reductions in funding but we are confident that they are challenging but manageable. What we see around the country in the constituencies of many hon. Members is that the police are not just making the necessary savings, but are transforming the way in which they provide the service to the public. In doing so, the measure is whether crime continues to fall—and crime does continue to fall.
Let me deal with one or two of the points made by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) who speaks for the Labour party. Although he spoke for more than 30 minutes, essentially to attack Government cuts, he could not answer whether a Labour Government would reverse any of those cuts. Let me clarify for him that what the Home Secretary and I have said, along with everybody else, is that our only target for the police is to cut crime. We have removed the plethora of detailed targets that the previous Government set the police, which got in the way of cutting crime, and said that cutting crime is the only thing the police need to do.
The hon. Gentleman tried to separate that from crime prevention. Preventing crime contributes to cutting crime and of course that is the most desirable way of doing it. That brings me to neighbourhood policing, which he and the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) emphasised. One of the things about effective neighbourhood policing—to which I am as committed as anyone—is that it leads to a cut in crime. Effective policing on the ground means that things are spotted earlier. The net effect is that the crime figures continue to come down, so we urge all police forces to do that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley) was characteristically forensic and knowledgeable on this subject. He pointed out how money better spent can and does lead to better policing.
The right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), who chairs the Select Committee on Home Affairs, asked about recruitment and morale. I am happy to report that a number of forces are recruiting again—we have heard that Cambridgeshire now has more police. In all those areas, recruitment is extremely attractive. Forces that go out to find new police officers find people pouring in through the door wanting to do the job.
The point made about the formula by my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) is precisely why we are having the biggest review of the formula for more than a decade—so that we get it right and the current unfairnesses are removed.
A number of hon. Members talked about technology. I am glad that the House has welcomed our emphasis on innovation and technology. The whole point about technology is to release police officers to be on the beat and on the streets more often than they are now. That feeds into crime prevention, neighbourhood policing and all the other desirable things we want in policing. If we use modern, digital technology better, we will have more effective and visible police officers. That is at the heart of many of the innovations we are making, particularly those we are supporting through the police innovation fund.
People have asked how the technology will be paid for. The answer is that the first round of the police innovation fund was hugely successful and the second round will be two and a half times the size of the first. Police forces up and down the country, along with their police and crime commissioners, are using the fund to drive the use of technology, which will make policing even more effective in the future. I am confident that both the PCCs and the forces will be able to continue to deliver those efficiencies while providing the excellent service that the public deserve. I commend the motion to the House.
Question put.
Local Government Finance
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
20:17 - The House divided: - Ayes: 276 / Noes: 185 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
I can report to the House that the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments has cleared the two reports that are to be debated.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis)
I beg to move,
That the Referendums Relating to Council Tax Increases (Principles) (England) Report 2014-15 (HC 1056), which was laid before this House on 5 February, be approved.
Madam Deputy Speaker
With this we shall consider the following motion:
That the Local Government Finance Report (England) 2014-15 (HC 1055), which was laid before this House on 5 February, be approved.
Brandon Lewis
Members on both sides of the House may well be aware that until now the Secretary of State has not missed a local government finance settlement debate in this Parliament. He sends his apologies, and hopes to join in the debate later in the evening, but, as I am sure Members will understand, he is currently attending a Cobra meeting.
The coalition Government have been working determinedly to restore the public finances, which were left in such disarray by the last Labour Government. It has been complicated and difficult work, and difficult decisions have had to be made. It is in the context of our responsible, long-term economic plan that we have been consulting on the local government finance settlement for 2014-15. Our proposals are fair and balanced, and provide an effective basis for all local authorities to transform local services and promote efficiency. Following a wide range of representations and meetings, we confirmed last week that the settlement would remain almost entirely as announced in December. This is effectively the second year of a two-year settlement, which gives councils a new level of self-determination so that they can take control of their own finances.
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
May I return the Minister to the words “fair and balanced”? The average cut in spending power for 2014-15 across England will be £71.44, whereas in Birmingham it will be twice that, at £145.33. How can I explain to people in Birmingham that that is “fair and balanced”?
Brandon Lewis
I am sure that the hon. Lady will not be surprised to learn that authorities such as Birmingham have higher spending power in the first place. The 10 most deprived areas in the country have an average spending power of £3,026 per dwelling, while the average spending power of the 10 least deprived is about £1,900.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
How can it be fair that my constituents in Northumberland pay a third more in council tax than the urban residents in Newcastle, but receive £100 less per head in services? Our Government have done so little so far to deal with the unfairness that the last Government left for rural areas.
Brandon Lewis
Actually, that is not an unreasonable point. Members highlight the changes in spending power between the different authorities, but they sometimes forget that some of them had high spending power in the first place. The contrast between areas like Newcastle and Windsor is very marked.
Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)
On that point about fairness, does the Minister recognise that areas like County Durham have high levels of deprivation and need? For example, the cost of looked-after children is much greater in such areas, because the numbers involved are much greater proportionally in places like Durham, Birmingham and Newcastle than in more affluent areas such as Wokingham.
Brandon Lewis
I think the hon. Gentleman will find that that is why those areas have substantially higher spending power in the first place. He should also note that a member of his own Front-Bench team supported the petition for a fairer spread between urban and rural areas a couple of months ago.
Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
Urban areas receive 50% more in central Government grant than rural areas which, contrary to what some Opposition Members suggest, have lower average incomes, so poorer people are paying higher taxes and getting fewer services. That cannot be sustained.
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend has made that point about rural areas with great passion on a number of occasions, and I will deal with it in a moment.
After years of doffing their caps to central Government and talking down their areas to scrape together more handouts, councils can now embrace the autonomy that this settlement gives them. Councils have risen to the challenge of delivering more for less, but local government spending still accounts for a quarter of all public spending. In the current year, it will spend £117 billion, which is £3 billion more than last year. That makes the local government bill bigger than that of the NHS and double the defence budget. It is therefore necessary for councils to continue to find sensible savings.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
Speaking of fairness, I believe that it is fair to the hard-pressed taxpayers in my constituency that their council tax has been frozen, not least because the Government have given us more than £7 million to enable that to happen. That funding was opposed by the Labour opposition.
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend makes a good point. It is good to see councils across the country freezing council tax and moving away from the situation that we had under the last Government, when it roughly doubled.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
On the subject of how councils spend their money, North Lincolnshire council, which has been Conservative-run since 2011, has frozen its council tax for four years despite the funding cuts and despite having less per head than other councils. It has reversed the previous Labour council’s cuts to youth services and increased spending on and the building of new libraries. It is also replacing damaged and leaking classrooms, which the previous Labour council did not do. It has managed to do all that without having to place any extra burdens on council tax payers. This can be done if councils are prepared to show true leadership by cutting the people at the top rather than the services at the bottom.
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend makes a good point. The leader of that council is Liz Redfern, and it is a great example of a well run council. It is showing that we can deliver more for less. Good councils across the country are changing the way in which they deliver services by doing exactly the kind of work that my hon. Friend has outlined.
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
We cannot always place the burden on local authorities. In Coventry, for example, the cumulative effect will be a cut of 24%, involving 1,000 jobs. More important, children’s services and social services will be cut, and education services will be cut, which will affect school build. The Government are setting the clock back: when they impose a freeze, it is like a dam that will burst in three or four years’ time.
Brandon Lewis
If the hon. Gentleman looks at the statement we made before Christmas, he will see that that is not the case, because we have rolled the freeze grant into the base to help councils. I suggest that his council may want to listen to councils such as North Lincolnshire, which has shown that it can achieve improvements in services, even while spending less.
Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con)
I have been in the Minister’s position, albeit some time ago, and I wonder whether he agrees that some Members are engaging in bad cherry-picking by pointing out certain difficulties. They also point out that the system of calculation is complicated, but the reason it is complicated is that it uses a balance of factors that suits each individual local authority. It is therefore unfair to pick out the difficult cases without balancing them with the others.
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend, with his experience, makes a clear point, which highlights how some Labour Members sometimes like to forget the starting point from which they are working and what high spending power some of these authorities have.
Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con)
I congratulate the Government on changing the Bellwin formula at this point, which is relevant to the local government settlement. The percentage has gone from 85% to 100%, and the limit has now been relaxed from £1.7 million to £1.1 million. That is good, but my local authority tells me that although their pothole gangs have gone from 13 to 35, all planned work, other than drainage work, has had to be put on hold, so there is still a need for more.
Brandon Lewis
I thank my hon. Friend for that, and I know she is rightly fighting hard for her area. As the Prime Minister said today, we must make sure that we do all that we can to ensure that areas have everything they need in this situation, and I will discuss flooding in a few moments.
Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)
On the Government’s own figures, Liverpool has the highest level of deprivation in the country, yet it has an entrepreneurial council that is working hard to back business and support jobs. In those circumstances, with the council showing so much initiative against a background of such adversity, why has Liverpool suffered the greatest cuts of all local authorities in the country?
Brandon Lewis
Actually, it has not. A council that has some of the greatest cuts is my own local authority in Great Yarmouth, which was left a black hole by the last Labour Government through the working neighbourhoods fund. I gently say to the hon. Lady that she might want to remind Mayor Anderson that Liverpool’s authority has £116 million in reserve, one of the highest spending powers in the country in the first place, a regional growth fund and a city deal. This Government are working with such local authorities.
John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)
I thank the Minister for meeting MPs from Birmingham to look at this issue, and I congratulate hon. Members generally on highlighting the difficulty of working out what a fair system is for allocating local government finance. The Government have focused on percentage reductions in spending power. Does the Minister agree that, after incentives, looking towards the reduction in percentage spending power, not absolute spending power, provides an equality of pain that gives us a way forward? It takes into account the fact that in areas like Greater Birmingham, where people work in Birmingham but live around it and require services from Birmingham but are not contributing towards—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. Before the Minister replies, may I remind the House that 17 Members wish to participate in this debate? Interventions must be short, and I will start to interrupt them if they continue to be as long as they have been so far.
Brandon Lewis
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Gentleman made that point in the meeting we had. As I said to him, I will happily go through it in more detail over the next couple of months, meeting him and officials to look at some of the ideas he is talking about.
Brandon Lewis
I will make a bit of progress, bearing in mind what Madam Deputy Speaker said, and then take more interventions.
It is necessary for councils to continue finding sensible savings, to modernise services and to cut back on waste. Recent opinion polls have shown that that is achievable, and we have examples from around the country of councils doing just that. The level of satisfaction with councils is increasing compared with the situation in 2010, highlighting that even when savings are being made councils can maintain or improve services for residents.
This year’s settlement is fair. It is fair to north and south, rural and urban, metropolitan and shire. Let us be clear that next year councils will be armed with significant spending power, averaging £2,089 per dwelling; the top 10 most deprived councils in the country will average more than £3,000 per dwelling compared with a figure of about £1,900 per dwelling for the least deprived areas. We are protecting cities and those authorities facing a higher demand for services, despite what the Opposition suggest. As I say, the top 10% most deprived authorities will be more than £1,000 per household better off than the least deprived 10%. Places such as Newcastle receive £2,400 in spending power, about £900 more than places like Windsor and Maidenhead.
Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con)
I do not agree with the Minister about Brighton and Hove’s council being satisfactory. The bonkers Green Brighton and Hove council is sitting on tens of millions of pounds of reserves, is spending millions of pounds on its leadership teams and is totally out of touch with residents. What can the Minister do about it?
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend has done a great deal by bringing this matter to the attention of Members and putting it on the record. What I say to councils, including the one in Brighton, is that they should do the right thing by their residents and freeze council tax to help hard-working people and families. We understand the pressures that all authorities face, and the division of funding demonstrates that we have tried to be fair.
John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab)
How on earth can the Minister say that this settlement is fair when, three months ago, the Audit Commission, the local government expert, said that
“councils in the most deprived areas have seen substantially greater reductions in government funding as a share of revenue expenditure than those in less deprived areas”?
Is the Audit Commission wrong?
Brandon Lewis
As I said just a few moments ago, 10% of the most deprived areas of the country have an average spending power of £3,026 per household, compared with £1,900 for the least deprived 10% of areas. We must bear that starting point in mind. The most deprived areas have greater spending power. The average reduction in spending power this year is just 2.9%, with no council being more than 6.9% worse off. This is the highest level of protection that we have been able to offer councils in three years.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
The Minister has spoken about councils being able to put a freeze on council tax for a further year. Does he not realise that many councils could see what was coming? It did not take a genius to see that the financial situation in 2010-11 would be difficult. Rugby borough council recognised that, and is now looking at a council tax cut for the coming year.
Brandon Lewis
Again, my hon. Friend gives a good example, to which I will be referring in just a moment. Good councils have planned for this and worked for their residents. Not only are they able to freeze the council tax, but in some cases, councils such as Rugby have done the excellent thing and cut council tax.
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)
Birmingham has cut £300 million from back-office services, but is still reeling from the biggest cuts in local government history. It is losing 23% of its spending power, while Wokingham is gaining 1%. How can it be right that the 10 most deprived areas are hit 10 times harder than the 10 least deprived areas? How can that be fair?
Brandon Lewis
The 10% most deprived areas in the country and the areas with the most need have a higher spending power in the first place and get a bigger Government grant.
Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)
On this issue of spending power, may I take the Minister back to the first and second answers that he gave and see how he puts them together? My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) talked about the reduction in spending power in a deprived area such as Birmingham. The Minister said, yes, but it has a higher spending power in the first place. My hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) then said that the reason—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. This is not an opportunity to make a speech. I want the hon. Gentleman to put a short question to the Minister.
Richard Burden
The Minister said that the reason was that such areas have higher needs. If that is the case, let us go back to the same question: why do the most deprived areas with the highest needs get the biggest reductions?
Brandon Lewis
It is best to refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer I gave a few moments ago.
In response to the question about flooding asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris), let me say that we are currently experiencing the wettest winter for 250 years, and that has an impact on local authorities’ finances. Many are working tirelessly for the safety of their communities. The Government have made it clear that they are committed to supporting them unequivocally. The severe flooding and storms have affected rural and urban, town and country alike from Great Yarmouth to Dawlish.
Sixty-two local authorities have thus far indicated that they will apply under the Bellwin scheme for financial assistance. The grant reimburses local authorities for the cost of their immediate actions to safeguard life and property. We have enhanced the terms of the Bellwin scheme in response to the most recent severe weather events. The floor has been lowered so that more councils can apply, which will be of particular benefit to the unitary and county authorities. We estimate that that could be worth an extra £15 million to those councils, and we will be paying 100% above the threshold as opposed to the previous 85%. For the longer term, I am committed, along with my colleagues across Whitehall, to undertake a review of the Bellwin scheme to assess what changes may be needed in the light of more frequent and challenging weather events. Members will no doubt already have noted that we have provided a £7 million severe weather recovery fund for those areas affected before and over Christmas.
We have also listened to the wider concerns—I note the comments that have been made in interventions already this afternoon—of colleagues in rural areas about the extra challenges their local authorities might face in achieving service delivery efficiencies. We are topping up the rural services delivery funding by an extra £3 million this year, including the extra £2 million announced today, so it is now worth £11.5 million, which is a further boost to the 95 authorities that will benefit this year.
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
Does the Minister not recognise, however, that that is less than the cost of employing an officer to work out what the missing money between the rural and urban split would be? Three million quid divided by 95 local authorities is about 30 grand each.
Brandon Lewis
The difference between the urban and rural authorities is between 13% and 10% when it comes to spending power, depending on whether we are looking at the counties or the districts. We will be working with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs over the next few months to do some research on the difference in the cost of delivering services, which is raised regularly by Members from rural constituencies, and get to the bottom of the issue.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
No doubt the Minister has studied the case made by the Rural Fair Share campaign and will be aware that Cornwall, for example, is not only rural, but among the most deprived areas of the country. Does he accept the principle that there is a comparative unfairness between urban and rural local authorities? Even if he cannot address the issue now, does he accept that the Government should address it in time?
Brandon Lewis
As I have said, the difference in spending power between urban and rural areas is between 13% and 10%—unless we are talking about a fire authority, in which case it is plus 3 for rural areas—so there is definitely a gap between the two. The work that DEFRA will do will look at differences in the costs in rural and urban areas.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
On fairness, the Minister earlier compared Newcastle and Windsor. Is he aware that Rob Whiteman, the chief executive of the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy, has said:
‘When Government ministers compare such different councils as affluent Windsor and metropolitan Newcastle in an attempt to justify the “fairness” of the settlement it only serves to highlight how out of touch this process has become’?
Brandon Lewis
I am sorry if the hon. Gentleman feels that way about his hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey), who used that very comparison himself.
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)
To return to flooding, can the Minister confirm whether he will be making an application to the solidarity fund? I know that the threshold is high, but if it is taken on a regional basis that would be a really helpful source of additional funding for the south-west.
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend tempts me away from the local government finance settlement. The Government look at such things, but the fund currently has a threshold of about £3.7 billion, and the Government would have to pay back the majority of what we got because of the way the mechanism works.
Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)
Further to the point made by the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George), will the Minister give us a guarantee that in the longer term he will grapple with the issue of funding for rural areas? Shropshire is the largest land-locked county in England, and providing services in such large areas inextricably costs more.
Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)
Fortunately, in Staffordshire the Trent has not flooded, but we are facing cuts across the board—to the police, youth services, disability services and now libraries. In Newcastle-under-Lyme the actual cash cut has been 13.6%, but under total revenue spending power it magically becomes just 4.4%. Which figure is correct?
Brandon Lewis
I suggest that the hon. Gentleman should look at spending power, which is what the Local Government Association prefers to use, because it outlines the amount of money and the way local councils have influence and control. It is the entire spend that a local authority has; it does not just single out one small part of its funding. That is an important change in how local government finance has worked, as we are now moving to a system in which more and more of the money is in the entire control of local authorities with their own autonomy.
Brandon Lewis
I will give way to the Chair of the Communities and Local Government Committee before making some progress.
Mr Betts
I draw the Minister’s attention to what he told the Committee on 27 January. He said that the system is changing from one based on allocation according to need, which now will be reflected merely in the base business line rate in 2013-14. Basically, the Government will distribute grant according to local authorities’ ability to raise their own resources. Is that not a fundamental change?
Brandon Lewis
It is a total change away from the begging bowl system to a reward-and-incentive-based system for local authorities.
Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD)
Does not this debate highlight what these debates have highlighted year after year—the lack of transparency in being able to judge one side against the other? Every council has had to deal with cuts; some have dealt with them well and some have not. How can voters judge which is which?
Brandon Lewis
In my experience, voters are pretty good judges of what is a good council as opposed to what is a bad council. We have already heard examples of councils that are doing really good work in transforming the way in which they deliver services and work together. I will come to that specifically in a moment.
We are continuing to encourage councils to grow their own economies. Last year’s transformation challenge award incentivised councils to rethink how they go about their business and to transform fundamentally the structure of their local services. Eighteen areas received a share of £7 million to jump-start innovative projects. Following this success, we will continue with the transformation challenge this year, and I will announce the terms and details shortly.
The expertise that councils have shared with other councils and the expertise being shared through the community budget pilots and the transformation network highlight the fact that this is the right approach. Authorities such as Staffordshire Moorlands and High Peak are showing that they can save about 18% by sharing management and working in a different way. Likewise, South Holland, Breckland and other councils around the country are working more innovatively.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that the Government’s £600 million-plus investment in rural broadband is another route for councils to make significant efficiencies?
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend makes a good point. The transformation of how we communicate, particularly through broadband, makes it possible to do many more things more efficiently and effectively, and it will no doubt continue to change how we deliver services and are able to work together across authorities.
The efficiency support grant has further incentivised transformation. The councils facing the largest spending reductions, many of which were in that position because they were abandoned by Labour’s reduction in the working neighbourhoods fund and left with a black hole in 2010, are now being given a leg-up towards making these savings through the transitional grant. I must declare my interest, as Great Yarmouth is one of the authorities that Labour left stranded. Authorities receiving the grant are protected by our safety net, which is bigger and stronger than last year. Despite some areas choosing to play politics with this—I am disappointed that Labour-run Great Yarmouth borough council refuses to follow the lead of other councils, sometimes even cross-party—councils such as Hastings and Pendle are doing some really good work on transforming things. Areas such as High Peak and Staffordshire Moorlands are working cross-party to share management and show the way to savings of about 18%. They are showing the way forward, and I hope that others will follow. Those in receipt of funding are making progress with their efficiencies, with many going a long way towards that, including many Labour-led areas. There is, however, more to do.
Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
I agree that transformation, integration and doing things differently is one way of mitigating the impact of the cuts. However, over the past few years my local authority in Salford has already cut our adult social care budget by £21 million. We were the last local authority in Greater Manchester to have to retreat to the position of providing support only to people with serious and critical needs. That means that 1,000 people in Salford will no longer receive support and care from the local authority. Those are real families in great distress, and the Minister must at least take account of that.
Brandon Lewis
I would be happy to meet the right hon. Lady and other Members from Salford if that would help. In a moment, I will touch on the better care fund, because we do need to look at how we change, reform and transform the delivery of adult social services, particularly social care. That is one of the things that my Department and the Department of Health are working on. I am working closely with the Minister of State, Department of Health, my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), to deliver for local authorities.
We want to go further with the efficiency support grant. The Government do not want to continue as we have had to do, year after year, in patching up problems left from the Labour legacy. We have listened to authorities and to Members—not only me, before I was in post, but those such as my hon. Friends the Members for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) and for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson)—about dealing with this issue once and for all and finding a permanent fix. Therefore, for councils that are on track with their efficiency plans and are delivering on the second year of their business plans, which we will review later this year, the grant will be rolled into their settlement in 2015-16. This a massive opportunity—a big reward—that will go a long way to filling, once and for all, the black hole in which seven authorities were left by Labour.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
May I ask the Minister whether his Department has done any kind of research into the long-term financial viability of local authorities? We already know that some are nearing the cliff edge, so what assessment has his Department made and what will he do to make sure that they do not go bankrupt?
Brandon Lewis
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the work showing not only that local authorities are coping well, but that good ones are improving front-line services.
Mr Burrowes
My hon. Friend mentioned the legacy from Labour. He will know, not least from Great Yarmouth, that damping is an issue for Enfield. Damping poses a structural challenge for places such as Enfield, with unmet need that is embedded year after year, and it does not reflect the growing population and deprivation issues.
Brandon Lewis
I thank my hon. Friend for raising the important issue of damping. I know that hon. Members have differing views about it, but it means that we can have stability in the baseline. It also recognises need as we move towards a new system, the business rates retention scheme, which I will turn to in a few moments.
Councils can become masters of their own destiny in other ways. The new homes bonus rewards councils that have increased the local housing supply, helping them to meet the needs of a growing community. In 2014-15, the new homes bonus will be worth £916 million, which is money for councils to spend as they see fit. Those authorities that have had an increase in their funding—Members have mentioned some of them—have had that increase because they have done the right thing: they have built more houses, and they have got more money for doing so.
The business rates retention scheme has revolutionised the potential to grow local economies, and has given councils a hand in their success. Under the previous Government, councils did not get to see that money—£11 billion in business rates—that they can now retain. Councils sit on a total of £230 billion of assets, and we must do more to turn those assets into better services for local people.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
The Minister has talked about giving councils greater control over their spending, which has been reduced hugely—for example, Newcastle has lost £100 million—and about the new homes bonus, which is top-sliced from councils’ money and then controlled by this Government. How does he reconcile the Government’s apparent liberating of councils with their control of councils’ money?
Brandon Lewis
As we have said before, the Government are moving to a different system, in which councils are incentivised for doing things. The new homes bonus is a good example: if they build houses, they will get more money. Councils that need more support with creating or changing to cutting-edge services will now be able to use up to £200 million from asset sales to pay the one-off costs of service transformation.
The autumn statement protected local authorities from further cuts to services by setting out a two-year settlement, so allowing councils to plan for the longer term and to have stability in the services they provide to taxpayers. This year, we are publishing illustrative figures for 2015-16 to enable councils to do that.
As was announced in the spending round, £3.8 billion will become available from the better care fund in 2015-16. That touches on a point made by the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). The better care fund is a real opportunity for local authorities. It will give our civic leaders a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity not only to encourage better working between their local NHS and social care services but, importantly, to change for the better the lives of the most vulnerable people in our communities. Such a stable platform for forward planning, which is part of our long-term economic plan, will provide councils with the scope to merge back offices, to tackle fraud and to save £2 billion. Improving council tax collection will help to bring in the outstanding total of £2.4 billion in uncollected council tax. Our proposals put councils in charge of their finances and, for the first time in the history of local government finance, give them a direct stake in the success of the local economy.
We recognise the crucial role that councils can play in helping with the cost of living. We have offered councils support so that they can freeze council tax bills, despite the fact that those bills doubled under the previous Government. Since 2010, council tax bills have fallen by an average of 10% in real terms. The total freeze funding up to 2015-16 is £5.2 billion. That is a serious commitment by the Government to help hard-working families. Over the lifetime of this Parliament, the average band D taxpayer could save up to £1,100 thanks to our council tax freeze. The Chancellor has agreed, as he has in previous years, to put the next two years of funding into the baseline. That eliminates any risk of a cliff edge and offers the maximum possible certainty to councils.
Everyone in this House should expect councils to do their bit for hard-working families. They must recognise that they have a duty to take up the freeze offer. Councils that do not accept the freeze and instead want to raise bills by 2% or more may do so, but only by holding a binding referendum. We believe that that strikes the right balance between direct and representative democracy. I say to all councils, take the freeze. If they do not do so, but want to avoid a referendum, the increase will benefit them to the tune of just 0.9%. My message to councillors who are considering that is to go back and push their officers to deliver more for their residents. We have given local electorates the power to veto excessive rises through a referendum. Councils should trust the people if they are confident that they have a case for putting up taxes.
Charles Hendry (Wealden) (Con)
My hon. Friend has been very generous in giving way. Will he look again at the threshold for referendums for fire services, particularly small ones such as East Sussex? If they want to put their precepts up by £3 a year, which is less than 1p a week, it would raise £900,000, but doing so would require a referendum that would cost up to £750,000. That does not make sense and I ask him to look at it again.
Brandon Lewis
I thank my hon. Friend for that question. Local authority and fire authority treasurers often make that point. They say that they do not want to accept the freeze, but they want to build up their base. However, if they win a referendum, they get that in their base for ever, so I simply do not buy that argument. To answer my hon. Friend directly, last year we had a differential for the lowest charging authorities. We look at that on an annual basis. Although we are not doing it this year, we do not rule out doing it in future. With regard to referendums, there is a cost-saving opportunity for authorities this year, because we are allowing council tax referendums to be held on the same day as the European elections, which is 22 May.
So far, 161 councils have publicly announced that they intend to ease the monthly bills burden for families. As my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mark Pawsey) mentioned, some authorities, such as Rugby, Croydon and Kensington and Chelsea, are even in a position to offer residents a one-off council tax rebate, so successful have they been in making savings. I expect many more councils to sign up to the freeze to make a difference to the cost of living for hard-working people and to demonstrate that locally elected leaders make the right choices for their electorate. I encourage councils to make the right choice and to offer a freeze for the fourth year.
Our do-it-yourself, reward-based mantra is a stark contrast to the old begging-bowl mentality. A substantial amount of money is available to local government in 2014-15. It is a bigger budget than the NHS and defence budgets. This settlement offers councils further freedoms, flexibilities and incentives to build more homes; to create more local jobs; to boost business and enterprise; and, ultimately, to provide more and better first-class services for their local residents.
Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)
Local government faces the biggest cuts of any part of the public sector. All around the country, councils are having to take incredibly tough decisions about the future of local services.
The Minister is like an abstract artist—the picture that he has painted today is clearly a departure from reality. Nobody believes his figures. He has claimed that the cuts are modest. He says that they can all be dealt with through efficiencies and that there will be no impact on front-line services. He should tell that to the elderly people who have had their home care withdrawn. He should tell it to the parents of children with special needs who cannot get the help that they need. He should tell it to the shift workers in my constituency who have to walk home at night in darkness because the streetlights are not on. He should tell it to the young people whose bus to school, college or work no longer runs. He should tell it to the Tory council leaders who were so appalled at the lack of understanding of the impact of the cuts among Ministers in his Department that they wrote to the Prime Minister to complain about the posturing. He should tell it to the council leaders in the poorest areas of our country who face the cruellest, deepest cuts of all.
The real picture is stark. The LGA says that over this Parliament, local government core funding will fall by 40% and councils will have to make £20 billion of savings. As hon. Members have pointed out, all councils face challenges, but the fundamentally unfair distribution of the cuts is particularly damaging to many communities. Even under the Government’s spending power measure, which is deliberately designed to mask the real impact, the 10 most deprived areas have had a cumulative cut that is 10 times more than the 10 least deprived areas.
The Prime Minister used to say, “We’re all in this together”, but his local authority and that of the Secretaries of State for Justice, for Health, for Education and for Defence, are getting an increase in spending power, while local authorities such as Hackney, Liverpool—as we have heard—and Manchester face the largest cuts. The coalition peer, Lord Shipley, said in the House of Lords last month that
“there is no doubt that the cuts have been steeper in the more deprived parts of the country.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 9 January 2014; Vol. 750, c. 1700.]
John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)
If the Labour party wins the general election it proposes further cuts. What formula would it use to identify the equity or fairness of any distribution of cuts?
Andy Sawford
The Labour party has said that we accept the Government’s spending plans, but what we will not do is cut in such a fundamentally unfair way. I will come on to what the Labour Government will do.
Grahame M. Morris
Does my hon. Friend accept that the coalition Government are breaking the post-war consensus in which the revenue support grant was used to equalise resource allocation?
Andy Sawford
My hon. Friend makes an incredibly important point and I will come to it in a moment.
The widely respected Joseph Rowntree Foundation published research in November stating:
“Cuts in spending power and budgeted spend are systematically greater in more deprived local authorities than in more affluent ones”
We know that that unfairness is not an accident. The former local government Minister, the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), who is in his place, told the House,
“Those in greatest need ultimately bear the burden of paying off the debt”—[Official Report, 10 June 2010; Vol. 511, c. 450.]
As my hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) rightly says, since 1948 funding has been allocated to local authorities according to need. In December, the National Audit Office, in its report on council tax support, commented on the end of the formula grant system which it claims
“redistributed business rates according to a formula that determined each local authority’s grant by considering local authorities’ needs and ability to raise resources through council tax.”
That system was by no means perfect—hon. Members have pointed out some of its shortcomings—but it became complex because it strived for fairness. Any reform must keep that principle of fairness at its heart.
Andy Sawford
I will make progress on this point, and then I will take further interventions.
Will the Government tell the House what meaningful consultation there has been, and who gave them permission to remove a principle that has stood for 65 years—that councils should be funded according to need? The House of Commons Library states:
“Prior to 2013/14 local authorities received formula grant at the Local Government Finance Settlement. The formula used was based on a four block model which included its relative need. In the first year of the Business Rate Retention Scheme this link remained in the funding baselines, but the relationship between funding and need exists now only to the extent that they are present in the original baselines.”
As each year goes by, there will be further erosion of the relationship between funding and need. The Library clearly states that
“reductions are generally larger for more deprived areas and smaller amongst less deprived areas.”
Mr Graham Stuart
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for giving way; he is being most generous. I notice that he did not respond to the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) about where Labour would make cuts. On the issue of need, density was given four times the weighting of sparsity, even though there is no link between density of population and increased cost and delivery of services. How was that fair?
Andy Sawford
If the hon. Gentleman will be patient for a moment, I will, of course, come on to what Labour will do if it forms the next Government. On sparsity, I took part in the debate that he and others led last year, which I thought was excellent. I recognise many of the issues that he raised and there is a sparse rural authority in my constituency in East Northamptonshire. The formula should of course take account of rural sparsity, as well as urban deprivation. There is always a debate to be had about fairness within the system, but what is critical is that the part of local authority funding with fairness at its heart—notwithstanding the debate that will be had—is now being eroded, so the opportunity to ensure that funding is fair and according to need is being lost.
Paul Farrelly
To put the cuts in perspective, in Newcastle-under-Lyme in north Staffordshire, an area of great deprivation, we will now have lost half our Government grant. We face the prospect, in the near future, of losing 75% of grant. How can councils in those circumstances be viable and address local need satisfactorily?
Andy Sawford
My hon. Friend makes the point powerfully. The reduction in spending power of areas with higher needs and lower resources, and the increase in spending power in the wealthiest areas, will not just close the funding difference between such areas, but in time reverse it. That is already happening.
Andy Sawford
Of course I will give way to the Chair of the Select Committee on Communities and Local Government.
Mr Betts
My hon. Friend has made a very important point. I come back to the comments the Minister made in his appearance before the Select Committee on 27 January. I asked whether the principle of the grant settlement, which equalises differences in needs and differences in resources between authorities, had been effectively eroded. The Minister said yes, there had been a big shift away from the begging bowl structure of the past to an incentive-based structure for the future.
Andy Sawford
My hon. Friend makes the point powerfully, with all of his experience as Chair of the Select Committee.
Spending power in Leeds will be lower than Wokingham’s in 2014-15, and will fall every year despite higher service pressures. Spending power for my hon. Friend’s own authority of Sheffield and for Newcastle, which has also been mentioned, will broadly match Wokingham’s in 2015-16 and then fall below it in future years despite higher service pressures. The spending pressures that councils face are very different. Newcastle has 101 looked-after children per 10,000 people, whereas Wokingham has 24. Homelessness and supported housing costs are £145 per dwelling in Newcastle and £48 in Wokingham. Statutory concessionary travel costs are £85 per dwelling in Newcastle and £14 in Wokingham. Where is the fairness in a funding system that does not recognise such large differences in need?
The revenue support grant element, which recognises need, will shrink from £15.2 billion in 2013-14 to £9.3 billion by 2015-16. Modelling shows that it could be gone altogether by the end of the next Parliament. The Institute for Fiscal Studies, which the Government are fond of quoting, is clear in its analysis that the poorest areas are feeling the squeeze. Minority communities are particularly affected, too. Of the 30 areas in England with the highest black and minority ethnic populations, 29 face cuts above national average and eight face cuts of double the national average. The Department’s own impact assessment raises concerns about the effect of cuts on BME communities and about services to the very young, the elderly and the disabled. It says it is not possible to make a substantial assessment. I have to ask the Minister why not, given the scale of these cuts? Why has his Department not conducted a full impact assessment, as it was urged to do by the Public Accounts Committee?
Daniel Kawczynski
Under 13 years of the Labour Government we saw a huge increase in salaries for officers and chief executives in councils. I would like to have the hon. Gentleman’s views on how that can be controlled going forward, because it accounts for a great deal of money.
Andy Sawford
Chief officer pay is something that should, rightly, be determined locally. We would of course want local authorities to be responsible. I urge the hon. Gentleman to recognise, however, that some of the highest paid chief officers were in Conservative local authorities. We will not be taking any lectures on that point.
The Government seem to have introduced the term “spending power” to hide the true scale of the cuts. London Councils says that it is extremely concerned that the spending power calculation is misleading and incorrect. The Government say that spending power is the total amount of money available to a local authority but the LGA tells us that there is double counting, such as with health budgets that are also in the Department of Health’s figures. Rob Whiteman, the chief executive of the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy says that
“these figures demonstrate…statement on the local government settlement this year was by any usual standards an…opaque announcement.”
The Minister says that the change to spending power is a shift in Government policy to reduce dependence. He uses that term about the begging bowl that, frankly, I find offensive. He says that this is about reducing dependence on central Government and freeing councils to encourage local growth. If that is true, we have to ask why it has taken so long for this Government to make a U-turn on business rates, which have risen by £2,000 since May 2010. Why will they not join this side of the House and go further by cutting rates for 1.5 million small and medium businesses? We agree, of course, that councils should not simply be a post-box for the Treasury, and schemes such as the local authority business growth incentive were introduced by the last Labour Government. We will look to reform any so-called incentivisation so that the system works fairly for all areas of the country and is alongside, rather than a replacement for, mechanisms for fair distribution of funding according to need.
Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)
First, I find it ironic that the hon. Gentleman should criticise any change to the business rates model that his party resisted for so many years. Secondly, he talks in terms of the four-block model, which is generally regarded as discredited now. Would he persist with it or not?
Andy Sawford
The consensus around recognising need in local authority areas existed for more than 65 years, until this Government broke it. We have been clear that we will look in the next Parliament to restore fairness in the formula, and of course we will look to ensure that the model in place recognises need.
Andy Sawford
Let me make a bit of progress. The Minister spoke for 38 minutes, and I know that many hon. Members wish to contribute.
It is to be welcomed that the Government are compensating local authorities for the cap on business rates, but I am told by SIGOMA that the compensation amounts appear to be less than the estimated reduction in total business rates. I hope that the Minister who responds to the debate will comment on that point. Holdbacks to fund the business rate safety net have also been top-sliced unfairly from councils. While Windsor and Maidenhead contribute to the £120 million holdback at a share of £2.27 per dwelling, Middlesbrough contributed £7.97 per dwelling. Why does the Minister think that is right?
I pay tribute to my colleagues, especially the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah), who led an important debate on this last year. There was a limited U-turn by the Government on holdbacks. But when the Minister replies today I hope that he can update the House on what recent assessment has been made on the business rate safety net.
Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)
I see that the shadow Minister is carrying on the same creative accounting as the last Labour Government. They say that they will stick to the same budget as we will, but they will reduce business rates. I welcome that, but where will they get the money from? They will have to cut it from somewhere else.
Andy Sawford
The hon. Gentleman will have to do a bit better than that. The reduction in business rates is clearly costed by not going ahead with the cut in corporation tax for the largest businesses in the country. It is a clearly costed policy.
The new homes bonus is another top-slice from the formula grant, and the Government seem confused about its purpose. Their website describes it as:
“A grant paid by central government to local councils for increasing the number of homes and their use.”
But the Housing Minister told the House recently:
“I am afraid the new homes bonus is not about encouraging people to build homes.”—[Official Report, 25 November 2013; Vol. 571, c. 11.]
The National Audit Office report on the new homes bonus said it certainly is not about increasing the number of homes, stating:
“Overall we found little evidence that the Bonus has yet made significant changes to local authorities’ behaviour towards increasing housing supply…We found no association between individual local authorities’ planning application approval rates and the numbers of homes qualifying for the Bonus.”
As the new homes bonus is a top-slice without a purpose, I can understand why local authority leaders and members are frustrated by the fact that it compounds the problem of unfairness—because of course it comes from the grant.
London Councils has brought to my attention the Government’s recent decision to require London local government to transfer £70 million of its new homes bonus grant to the GLA. That is a centralising step by the Government in London. Those councils want to know why they are being treated differently from the rest of the country, and I hope that when the Minister responds later he will justify that.
Other changes are having an impact on councils. There is much concern about the localisation of welfare support. The funding has been passed from the Department for Work and Pensions to the Department for Communities and Local Government, and has already been cut in half in the process. There are no plans for any funding to be available after 2015. Do the Government recognise the impact that that will have on the ability of councils to help the most vulnerable people in our communities?
That leads me on to the Government’s new poll tax for the poorest people. The cuts to council tax support mean that many people on the lowest incomes will see their council tax bills jump. These people are carers, the disabled, single mums, war widows and veterans, and they will all have to pay more council tax and, in some cases, the bedroom tax, the impact of which my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) powerfully denounced earlier. Today the Prime Minister has again chosen not to rule out another tax cut for millionaires, so we can see where the Government’s priorities lie.
When people face a cost of living crisis, it is right that local authorities do their best to keep council tax down. In recent weeks, the Secretary of State has briefed the press that he would reduce the council tax referendum trigger, but he seems to have been overruled at the last minute by the Home Secretary and the Deputy Prime Minister. The whole process has been a complete shambles. SIGOMA has said that the late announcement of the threshold was unacceptable. Councillor Caitlin Bisknell of Derbyshire county council contacted me on the day of the announcement to tell me that the council was in the middle of a meeting to set its budget for next year when it was informed by the Government of the referendum limit. While the Secretary of State has been posturing and dithering, councils have been trying to plan ahead. Local councils and communities are the ones who are left to pick up the pieces of the Government’s incompetence.
For all the talk of a council tax freeze, more than a third of local authorities put council tax up last year. According to a recent survey by The Daily Telegraph, more than half the local authorities preparing to increase council tax this year are Conservative councils, including Oxfordshire, the Prime Minister’s county council, which plans to raise its bill for a second year running.
Mr Burrowes
Will the shadow Minister make it clear whether Labour supports the council tax freeze? I am sure he will come on to what he would hope to do if he had the opportunity in government, which I very much hope he does not. I have been reading the Public Finance magazine, which says that he is actively considering plans for new council tax bands. May we have those details now?
Andy Sawford
We are looking at representations that have been made to us by local government as part of our review on how we ensure that the funding formula is fairer in the next Parliament and fair to all councils. The hon. Gentleman mentions the council tax freeze, but there is no freeze. Many councils around the country are planning to put their council tax up. More than half of them are Conservative councils. Who blazed that trail? Councils such as Labour Hackney, which has been freezing council tax for eight years, did so. The three biggest council tax rises during the Labour period in power were by Tory councils.
The Minister has told us that local authorities can deal with the cuts by making sensible savings and reducing waste. The Prime Minister has described local government as the most efficient part of the public sector. While councils have had to make bigger and earlier cuts than any other part of the public sector and make massive savings, the Secretary of State has lumbered taxpayers with a limo bill of close to £500,000, reportedly the biggest of any Whitehall Department. The biscuit bill is rocketing, and the Department has even been fined for running an unauthorised overdraft. The Minister should therefore not patronise councils with his suggestions for savings.
Labour Hackney council’s social care services are supporting people to stay in their own homes and out of formal care, which saves £2 million annually. Bolsover and North East Derbyshire councils have pooled staff and resources and are saving £1.5 million a year. Blackburn with Darwen council saved £2.2 million in one year using pioneering telecare technology. Oldham council is using a co-operative commissioning approach for its children’s centres. The process is producing savings of £220,000 and protecting those vital children’s centres.
Despite the great work to make savings and reconfigure services in the best possible way for communities in the circumstances, the truth is that many local authorities are being pushed to the brink, as hon. Members have pointed out. LGA figures show that there is a big financial black hole in local government finances, which is widening by £2.1 billion a year. It is expected to reach £15 billion by the end of 2020. That is fuelling growing concerns that local authorities lack the ability to continue to deliver front-line services.
The LGA’s Conservative leader, Sir Merrick Cockell told the Communities and Local Government Committee that 86 authorities are near the tipping point of failure. The Government simply do not know how they will respond when councils fall over. When the permanent secretary to the Department for Communities and Local Government was questioned by the Public Accounts Committee, he said that councils have a statutory duty to balance their books. He is relying on that statutory duty in the face of reality. I am sure finance officers will do their best to advise councils on how to balance the books, but they are not magicians. The Minister must tell us what plans the Government have for when an authority becomes no longer viable.
Hon. Members have asked about the next Labour Government’s plans. We will not be able to stop the cuts or turn back the clock, but we will put fairness at the heart of the relationship between central and local government, and at the heart of our approach to local government finance. It is simply wrong that the most deprived local authorities and the communities that can least afford it are being hit hardest. It is often the areas with the highest demand for services that have the least capacity to raise income through business rates or council tax.
It is crucial that we support councils to deliver economic growth in all areas of the country, and to do that we will extend the model of city deals throughout local government and devolve power over housing and planning and jobs and skills—for example, through co-commissioning of the Work programme. We would also take forward our Total Place programme, which, being far too limited in scope, has sadly stalled under this Government, despite its clear potential. Furthermore, the local government innovation taskforce set up by the Leader of the Opposition is developing an ambitious programme requiring central and local government to work together as we transfer much more power and responsibility to councils. In this way, while resources will be tight, councils will have a fair chance to find a way forward for their communities.
In conclusion, in the Chancellor’s spending review in May 2010, he said—[Interruption.] Hon. Members might want to listen—it is their policy, their announcement. The Chancellor said:
“The Government will…limit…the impact of reductions in spending on the most vulnerable in society, and on those regions heavily dependent on the public sector”
and that
“the Government will look closely at the effects of its decisions on different groups in society, especially the least well off, and on different regions.”
Sadly, on local government funding, that promise of fairness is not worth the paper it is written on. Far from being localists, the Government have shown themselves to be mean and meddling at every turn, and nowhere more so than in taking the most from the communities and the people in the greatest need.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. It will be necessary to have a six-minute time limit on all Back-Bench contributions, although it might be necessary to revisit that later.
Mr Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con)
I wish I could say it was a pleasure to follow that speech.
The shadow Minister could have come to the House, in a statesmanlike way, and acknowledged that there was a serious crisis in the public finances that the previous Government made a considerable contribution to creating; that the Government faced a difficult task; that the four-block formula was widely discredited; that for 13 years under Labour council tax spiralled in areas such as mine, more than doubling and creating hardship for those on low wages and the elderly; and that for 13 years MPs for rural areas tried to persuade Ministers that the four-block formula did not capture need properly. Like most people, he knows it does not capture need or deal with the heterogeneous nature of rural deprivation, but rather discriminates against rural poverty and is fundamentally flawed. Instead, all we heard was that the system he would employ would be fairer—well, without the detail, nobody will believe that.
Torridge has the lowest wages in the country—lower than Liverpool, lower than Manchester, lower than the cities for which the shadow Minister was speaking, lower than other Labour-represented areas—the lowest average household incomes in Devon, the lowest income in Devon, the lowest output per capita in the south-west and the highest unemployment in the south-west. There are really deprived areas in these rural areas. For 13 years, Members on this side of the House, as well as some on his side, endeavoured to persuade the Labour Government that this formula was morally bankrupt, but all he can do is pick out and criticise specific aspects of how the Government have dealt with local government funding.
The problem is that the whole formula is wrong. I want to concentrate on certain difficulties that he acknowledged—although he did not say what he would do about them—concerning the highly discriminating way the system treats rural areas. Council tax has spiralled in rural areas: it is £86 per head higher than the average, yet they get £145 per head less in grant funding. Those of us who represent these areas, including, I believe, those on the Opposition Benches, feel that that is an inequity. What would he do about that? We have got to do something about it.
I have to say with regret to my hon. Friend the Minister that this Government are not doing enough about it. It is not enough to say that £11 million, with the extra £2 million that he has found today down the back of the sofa, corrects the anomaly that small rural district councils and shire county councils are facing. West Devon has had to take out the best part of 14% of its budget over the last three years. In Torridge, there are similar problems.
One point that the hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) made with which I did agree was that this Government and any future Government that the Labour party may one day in the distant future form will have to decide whether they want small rural district and borough councils, because many of them—certainly some in the south-west—are on the brink of viability. I agree with the hon. Gentleman on that. It may be that we have to look hard at the whole question of the reorganisation of local government in those areas and at whether we can maintain them.
I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to look again at the issue of rural sparsity and fairness to rural areas. The issue seems to be widely acknowledged and what has been done so far is not sufficient. One of the most frustrating factors that those of us on the Government Benches have experienced in meeting the Secretary of State—he has been very good with his time, as has my hon. Friend the Minister—is that every time we present a case, we are told that the figures are not what we say they are. Yet there seems to be no agreed common ground as to what those figures are so that we can both talk on the same level and on the same playing field. I urge my hon. Friend to sit down with the campaign that is growing in momentum and force on this side of the House—I hope that he acknowledges that—and see whether we can agree common terminology and common ground as to what these figures mean, so that we can achieve fairness in the future. I respectfully suggest to the Government that that is something to which they need to attribute the greatest priority because there is a growing sense of frustration on the Government Benches which will not for much longer be capped, if I can put it that way. I hope that, in closing, my hon. Friend the Minister will be able to help us with that.
I want to deal very briefly with the position of Devonshire county council, which is facing a huge problem following the recent severe weather. The new changes to the Bellwin formula are welcome but I understand that the formula does not deal with repair and maintenance. The Devonshire county council has £750 million—
Mr Graham Stuart
The East Riding was devastated by floods in 2007 and I am very interested to hear further observations from my hon. and learned Friend.
Mr Cox
My hon. Friend’s intervention enables me to say that the problem with the Bellwin formula is that it does not cover repair and is for a limited period. Repairs in the south-west, and particularly in Devon, are now up to a backlog of £750 million. I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to look again at the Bellwin formula to consider whether it properly takes account of the costs that large rural shires are facing after this hugely problematic and severe weather.
Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that this point is absolutely essential, because the Prime Minister, in his visit to Devon and Cornwall, made it clear that councils would be compensated for all the costs of clearing up after the storm? Confusion will creep in unless this is dealt with in the way that my hon. and learned Friend describes.
Mr Cox
I agree with my hon. Friend and I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will consider that. The changes that have been announced recently are very welcome but they do not go far enough, particularly for large counties, such as Devon and Cornwall, that have huge road networks, many of which have a backlog of repairs that is being made massively worse by the current spate of bad weather. We are facing huge backlogs of repair and maintenance. The current formula does not go far enough to address those problems. The Prime Minister has made this solemn pledge and I hope, and am sure, that my hon. Friend the Minister will want to see that that is properly fulfilled.
In conclusion, I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to heed this point; the problem relating to the anomaly of small rural councils and county councils—shire councils—will not go away. Torridge and West Devon are facing an existential threat from the cuts that they have faced. In West Devon and in Torridge they have cut, cut and cut again. They have gone far beyond the 40 ways that were announced some time ago. I urge my hon. Friend to address that problem and the rural anomalies.
Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)
I want to address three fundamental unfairnesses in the settlement. The first is the lateness with which the Government made their decisions. Reference has already been made to the threshold for council tax increases. It is simply not fair for local councils to find that out when many of them had already come to their budgetary decisions. The Local Government Chronicle has just done a survey of 160 local council finance officers, 14% of whom admitted that they were basically scrambling around making changes to their budgets at the last minute in an attempt to anticipate what the threshold would be. Local authorities have a difficult job anyway, without the Government making it unnecessarily more difficult in that way.
Secondly, let us look at the cuts that local government is once again facing compared with the rest of government. Around 20% of the grant to local authorities will be cut in this settlement and next year’s. That is far bigger than the cut to other Departments. Even by the Government’s own figures for spending power, the cut over those two years, excluding the ring-fenced grants for public health and the better care fund, is around 10%. Again, that is much bigger than for other Departments. The Local Government Association has calculated the real-terms cuts in Government support to local authorities over the course of this Parliament at 40%—more than twice that for other Departments. Are the services that people receive from their councils—road sweeping, refuse collection, public health, checking food hygiene, local leisure centres and parks—really less important than the services provided by all other Departments? I do not believe they are, but if they are in the Government’s mind, they have to justify that as the basis for extra cuts for local authorities.
Let us look at the distribution of unfairness among local councils. We heard an interesting analysis earlier from a number of my hon. Friends who asked the Minister questions. Essentially it boiled down to this. Councils with the highest grant have had the highest cuts; those councils had a higher grant because they had higher needs; therefore, councils with the highest needs have had the highest cuts. That is the logic of the situation.
John Hemming
Earlier the shadow Minister was unable to tell the House how he would allocate the cuts that Labour would make to local government. Has the hon. Gentleman been told what the Labour party would do and, if so, will he tell the House?
Mr Betts
I am sorry, but if the hon. Gentleman wants me to invent a grant settlement in the course of a six-minute speech, I am not going to oblige him.
When the Minister appeared before the Select Committee on Communities and Local Government, he admitted a fundamental change of Government policy, away from a needs-based system. The only needs taken into account are those reflected in the baseline of business rates, which started with the new arrangement in 2013-14. The new term—the settlement funding agreement—is really composed of two parts: the business rate base and the revenue support grant. As the business rate base is held constant or increases with inflation each year, the totality of cuts that the Government make falls on the revenue support grant element of the settlement funding agreement. Within the revenue support grant is something called the council tax resource equalisation adjustment. That has been cut by 25% this year, yet it is the mechanism by which extra resources are given to the poorest areas with the most deprivation. Those areas have had the biggest cuts, with resources transferred away from them. That is how the mechanism works in practice.
We can add to that the new homes bonus, which of course is not a bonus from Government, but is top-sliced from other Government funding—on the basis, therefore, of the grant that authorities already have—and then transferred to authorities according to the homes they are building. The Minister might say that that is an incentive to build homes—that is not what the Housing Minister said last time he was asked—but in the end, that money comes from a top-slice of grant, which means that those authorities with the greatest need and the greatest amount of grant pay the most into the system in the first place, and most of them lose out in the totality of the process.
Reference has already been made to my authority, Sheffield. The Minister likes to make comparisons with other areas that have not had as much grant in the past, saying that the Government are only doing a bit of evening up. Wokingham does not have the same needs as Sheffield, but in 2015-16, if we exclude the ring-fenced public health and better care fund grants that can be spent only on what they are allocated for, the spending power of Sheffield will be the same as that of Wokingham. That is impossible to justify according to anybody’s definition of fairness and reasonableness. Leeds already has less spending power and Newcastle will have less in two years. That is simply unfair. Does anyone on the Government Benches want to justify the idea that Wokingham’s spending power after 2015-16 should be higher than Sheffield’s? That is the system that Ministers are creating.
As the Minister knows, I am not against bringing some incentives into the local government finance system. I understand the desire for some localisation of business rates. I am in favour in the longer term of councils having the chance to raise more money at a local level rather than being dependent on Government, as an important element of localism involves freeing councils up to raise funds as well as giving them more powers.
Mr Betts
I said that I would take only one intervention, so my hon. Friend will have to excuse me. Other Members want to get in.
The system is fundamentally broken and I support the proposals made by the LGA in its “Rewiring public services” document. Let us give local authorities a budget for a whole Parliament so that they can plan ahead and let us consider involving the LGA in the process of distributing grant. I want to go further than that. I want a fundamental review of local government finance based on three principles. First, we should give more powers and responsibilities to local authorities, building on community budgets and city deals and going further than they do. Secondly, let us consider giving councils more fiscal autonomy, as the Select Committee is in the context of fiscal devolution to cities. We can then see whether we can reach some agreement to enable councils to raise more of their own resources. Finally and fundamentally, when the Government distribute money to councils they must do it in a fair way that reflects needs and deprivation. That is the element that the Government have forgotten in this settlement.
Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD)
Last November, I joined 30 colleagues on the Floor of this House to present petitions calling on the Government to close the gap in local government funding between rural and urban areas by a mere 10% by 2020. The petitions included 1,700 signatures from my constituency. In my view, that was a modest ask and I believe that we should look to the Government to do at least that and more in brisk order.
I recognise the problems faced by the Department for Communities and Local Government in the era of austerity, the need to eliminate the deficit and, of course, the debt repayments that will follow even when the deficit has been eliminated, but I believe that local government is taking too much of the burden—more than other Departments—and that, as the hon. and learned Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox) said a few moments ago, some local authorities are now facing such difficulties that their viability is in doubt.
It is vital that the Government should face up to the crisis towards which we are heading at great speed. Fundamentally, my complaint is as follows: why should some of the poorest people in the country, on the lowest wages, pay far more in council tax and receive far less grant from central Government while at the same time local services erode around them? That is what is happening in Devon and it is certainly what is happening in my constituency. The district council grant has been halved since 2010 and the total budget has been cut by a third over that time. This year alone, the Government have sliced the grant to the district council by 13.4%.
As for the wider picture, the situation is frankly no better for Devon county council. By next year, it will have seen a 60% cut in Government grant during the lifetime of this Parliament. Our schools and our health system are underfunded and, as other Members have said, the current system is quite simply broken. Rural residents pay council tax that is on average £86 a head higher than urban residents. They receive £145 less in Government grant than their urban counterparts, and this is a funding gap as wide as 50%.
It is welcome that the Government recognise the principle of there being a problem, and that they have put in place this emergency grant for a second year running, but I am sorry to say that even at the enhanced level that has been announced for the grant today, it closes that gap by only £1.04 a head, and at this rate it will take us 86 years to put right the gap in council tax payments, and 145 years to put right the gap in Government grant. This is simply not an adequate response to the scale of the problem that is faced in many rural communities throughout the country.
The Government make much of the spending power measure and bandy that about. That is a flawed measure. It looks at the current council tax revenues and believes that it is acceptable for some areas to pay much higher council tax and sees no reason why that should not continue in perpetuity. It also obscures the scale and impact of reductions in funding and the challenges that councils now face. For example, under the spending power measure, Devon county council has lost only 1.5% as against a national average of 2.9% in the latest settlement. But that obscures the fact that it has lost 9% in revenue support grant and, as I said, the district in my area has lost 13.4% in Government grant. Similar figures can be seen throughout the country.
Paul Farrelly
The figures from Devon mirror the situation in Staffordshire. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is a funny sort of localism that imposes referendum limits centrally from Whitehall?
Sir Nick Harvey
I agree, just as I think it is a funny form of localism that then starts trying to tell local authorities how often the bins should be emptied.
As the Chair of the Communities and Local Government Committee said, the whole model of local Government funding is now so fundamentally broken that there needs to be a cross-party endeavour to rebuild something from scratch on a blank sheet of paper. The situation that we are in now is untenable. Somehow or other, Whitehall convinces itself that by putting this degree of hardship on to local government, the public anger at seeing some of the services that impact on their daily lives most directly will miraculously be focused solely upon the local authorities that send out the bill. I say to my right hon. and hon. Friends that I simply do not believe that that is a sound political calculation. The public are not stupid and they will see the difficulties that local government, regardless of the party running any particular council, is facing at this time, and they will hold central Government to be responsible for it.
We have already heard from my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox) in the next-door seat about the parlous state of the highways and roads, but Devon county council is now consulting about a programme of cuts that will end all its non-statutory obligations: ending the subsidy on meals on wheels; closing its day centres; getting rid of all its residential care homes; axing mobile libraries and the smaller local libraries; and doing away with the youth service, except for young offenders. This will cause absolute fury on the part of voters. I do not think that it is acceptable. We have people moving into our area who are aghast at the low level of public services that they find in comparison with other parts of the country that they have come from. This is just not acceptable. It cannot go on like this. I made a speech similar to this last year. I told Ministers that they needed to do something about it if they wanted my support in the Lobby. A year has gone by, they have done nothing about it and they will not have my support in the Lobby this evening.
Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey). What he said threw into sharp relief what had been said by the Minister, whose speech elevated George Orwell’s newspeak to a fine art. As the hon. Gentleman made clear, the Minister paraded his shop-soiled mantra about spending power, but objective observers might think that it was more about the freedom to dine at the Ritz.
I make no apology for focusing on the particular problems of my own town and my own council, because Blackpool, which is sixth in the index of multiple deprivation, will have suffered a cumulative cut of 20.6% between 2010 and 2016. We were hit particularly hard by the abolition of the area-based grants in the first emergency budget. The present process takes very little account of the special circumstances of towns such as Blackpool, which are experiencing pressures from incomers on services such as housing and social care. We have also been hit extremely hard by the demographic double whammy of the bedroom tax and cuts in council tax benefit, which others have already mentioned.
However, it is not just a question of the actual hardship; it is also a question of the process. Our local authority has been notified of a 2014-15 in-year new homes bonus of £25,000, the second lowest in the country. The borough treasurer says that that is due to earlier than planned demolition of the Queens Park estate and conversion programmes for houses in multiple occupation, two very worthy initiatives for which Blackpool appears to have been perversely penalised.
The cumulative budget cuts for what is one of the smallest unitary authorities in the country are expected to amount to £88 million over the five years between 2011 and 2015-16. Last week, in a report to the executive, the borough treasurer pointed out that since the approval of this year’s budget by the full council, there had been six separate announcements from the Treasury and the Department for Communities and Local Government impacting significantly and adversely on Blackpool’s central Government funding allocations for the next two years, and requiring plans for budget cuts to be revisited each time. The discriminatory nature of the proposals is demonstrated by the fact that Blackpool will lose £105 per head, five times more than the losses that will be suffered by the two authorities that will lose the least.
We are also suffering as a result of the proposed £1.1 billion top-slice in the new homes bonus in 2015-16, and the transfer of an estimated 35% of that to local enterprise partnerships. In Blackpool’s case, that means losing £4.4 million of revenue support grant from the new homes bonus top slice, while receiving new homes bonus grant of only about £2.3 million. Overall, Blackpool stands to lose £2.9 million from the transfer.
When the Government make their spending and funding announcements, they should be clear, transparent and unequivocal, rather than revising downwards at a later stage. I speak with feeling because my constituency contains two of the most disadvantaged areas in England with populations of more than 30,000, namely Bloomfield and Brunswick wards. Let me describe the effects of those cuts in human terms. Virtually all the formal youth services have had to go over the last two years. The CCTV budget has been cut, the budget for trams has been cut by £100,000 this year, and the budget for the road safety partnership has also been cut. I could go on.
The reduction in the spending power of areas with higher needs and lower resources, and the changes that the Government are introducing, will not just close the funding difference, but, in time, will potentially reverse it. It is simply wrong that Blackpool should experience a cumulative cut of 20%, when Chichester experiences a 0.2% cut, Spelthorne a 1.2% increase, Reigate a 2% increase, and Surrey Heath a 1% increase. What do all those areas have in common? They are all prosperous, southern, Conservative councils.
We need to help councils to deliver economic growth in all areas of the country. That is why this week’s proposals from my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and what was said today by my hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) are so important. Earlier this year, my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) and I produced a pamphlet for the Smith Institute, in which we discussed some of the ways in which Labour councils are already doing things for themselves, and major changes in funding that could be made in the next Parliament.
This Government have worked on the basis of sham localism. They have talked about localism, but they have delivered centralism. We want a fundamental review, and we want to give incentives and initiatives, but that can be done only if everyone works across the boundaries of existing local and central Government and does things together. This Government have completely failed to do that. They have shown no enthusiasm for our Total Place projects, and the bankruptcy of their policies is revealed by the comments that are being made by their own council leaders as well as by ours.
Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)
I congratulate the Minister on his speech, and I commend his statement to the House. This is a difficult settlement for anyone to have to achieve, and my hon. Friend has done it as well and efficiently as I would expect him to. It is a settlement that I would have commended to the House when I was a Minister.
I welcome the hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) to his new position, but he made a disappointing speech. Frankly, it was full of wind and rhetoric, and contained very little analysis. The truth is that the Minister has delivered the best possible settlement for local government that he could in these difficult circumstances, and he has worked tirelessly to do so. I will tell the hon. Member for Corby why he is wrong. He failed to answer a question when I intervened on him earlier. While we are wedded to a four-block formula, we will always have difficulties with the way in which we deliver resource to local government. We are stuck with it for this Parliament, however, so let us be sensible and realistic about it. The Government have done the best they can in the circumstances. The paucity of imagination among Opposition Members is striking; they will not move away from that point.
Such a paucity of imagination also exists among some of our coalition colleagues. My hon. Friend the Member for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey) has made a powerful speech, and much of his analysis was broadly correct. However, when I was the local government Minister and I sought to reform the system by giving more recognition to rurality and bringing greater efficiency into the system, I was baulked at every turn by our coalition partners, who had no desire to make any change. That is the reality of public life; we have to live with what we have.
I believe that it is wrong when an efficient local authority such as my own in Bromley—which will, I trust, freeze its council tax tonight—is not rewarded for its historical efficiency. For years, we have started from a lower base than others, yet we get no recognition for that in the spending formula. That needs consensus to be taken on board. It is offensive that we do not adequately take on board the cost of running services in rural areas, although many of us tried to do that. I was surprised that my coalition colleagues were more concerned with protecting the position of the metropolitan authorities. Sheffield and Stockport were more important to them than protecting the issues affecting their people in the south-west of England. The reality is that they were unwilling to engage in a serious debate on the reform of the four-block formula.
That is not the fault of the Minister. He has done the best he can with the hand that has been dealt to him. In a future Parliament, however, we might have to think about what we should do with local government finance. That will not be done under these coalition arrangements, and it will not be done unless we are more honest about giving incentives to local authorities to recognise hard work.
My local authority has benefited to the tune of some £5 million through the new homes bonus, because we have worked efficiently and effectively. We have sought to do that in connection with our new business rates. We have worked hard, yet I see nothing in the formula that will reward us. In the London system, we are not rewarded for our historical efficiencies, and that is wrong.
We need to take a more sensible approach in order to get through this current period. The Minister has done that fairly and efficiently, but we now need to think more sensibly about what we do in respect of a system that rewards growth and hard work, and rewards local authorities for driving up their own economic base. Some Labour Members raise their eyebrows at that, but Newham council is a local authority that has worked hard to drive up its economic base and does not get a reward under the four block system. Unless we are prepared to deal with the four block system, we are doomed to a perpetual dance around—a bit like the last act of Eugene Onegin and the Polonaise—redressing a formula that is fundamentally flawed.
Grahame M. Morris
I do not necessarily agree with the hon. Gentleman’s analysis, but does he accept that it is possible to do both: we can incentivise growth, economic development and housing development, and still address need, without the requirement to destroy the equalisation elements of the formula?
Robert Neill
I think we all accept that there will always be an element of equalisation in the formula, but if the system becomes entirely about equalisation, rather than about incentivisation, we will be getting into the wrong place in terms of bringing in market economics and growth. I want an element of equalisation in any formula—everyone does—but I say seriously to the hon. Gentleman that he misses out the importance of recognising that efficiency should be written into the formula. We are in a binary resource-versus-needs equation at the moment in the way the four blocks operate, and there is also an inefficient means within the blocks. I worked this out once and found that about 297—I may have lost a couple along the way—bits of regression and analysis in the formula are worked out. The right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) nods, because she had to suffer about 300 in her time—we have scaled it back a bit. This is a ludicrously complicated formula, it does not get to the heart of where need is, and very often the interactions of the bits of the regression and analysis are counter-intuitive. So unless we are prepared to sit down in the new Parliament—it will not happen in this one—to examine seriously the formulation for local government finance, we will not get anywhere.
The Minister has presented a workable, sensible and effective proposal that will take us through until the general election and beyond. This House needs to take on board the fact that we will be having these same circular debates time and again unless we are radical about the need to change local government finance for the future. Such change will come after the general election, but all of us, if we are serious about local government, need to get a grip on that and be prepared to think outside the box of where we currently are. That would be in all our interests.
Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)
Local government is important to everyone. It is about improving people’s quality of life, developing potential, protecting the vulnerable and supporting communities. That is why the Government’s attacks on local services are so destructive. When the severest financial cuts are made on the poorest, that is grossly irresponsible. I listened with horror to what the Chairman of the Select Committee told us: the Government have now admitted that they are no longer concerned about protecting the vulnerable and are more interested in protecting the rich—that is outrageous.
It is completely unacceptable that Liverpool, which on the Government’s own figures is the most deprived local authority in the country, has suffered the deepest cuts yet again. Liverpool will suffer drastic cuts in spending power this year and it will suffer them again next year, with its funding slashed by another 5.4%—£32 million—which is the equivalent of £148 a household. By contrast, Surrey Heath is facing cuts of £73,000—a mere 0.1% cut. That is an indication of where the Government’s priorities lie. In real terms, Liverpool’s funding has been cut by 52% since 2010, and the figure is likely to reach 58% by 2016-17. As 76% of Liverpool’s finance for local services comes from central Government, in recognition of the city’s needs, the cut will be devastating.
I was appalled to hear the Minister state at the beginning of this debate that he regarded that support as a handout. I call it justice; it is about recognising need. He sees supporting deprived communities as giving a handout, which he is rapidly withdrawing. It is an absolute disgrace, and I am pleased that he has put that on the record in this debate today. The reality for Liverpool is that services such as nurseries, care for the under-fives, social care for the vulnerable, which includes 5,000 care packages, library, regeneration and youth services will all be at risk. Whatever spurious lines he tries to go down, the finger of blame will be pointed clearly at the Government who will be responsible.
I noted that the Minister attempted to divert this debate by talking about Liverpool’s reserves. Those reserves are held because they are legally required to be held, mainly on behalf of schools. Furthermore, despite the devastating blows to local services coming from this Government to the city of Liverpool, the council and its mayor are responsible people and they are determined to maintain the city’s finances in a prudent manner, and they will not deviate from that.
Andy Sawford
My hon. Friend makes an incredibly important point about Liverpool’s reserves, which we calculate are equivalent to one month’s operating costs for Liverpool council. That is a prudent level of reserves. Perhaps, it wants more reserves in order to have some sustainability given the context that she is powerfully describing.
Mrs Ellman
My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. Nothing that the Minister has said tonight can deviate from the reality that the Government are hitting hardest the poorest areas of the country. They describe the funding that they give as a handout, and they are shameless in their intention to continue hammering the poorest areas of the country. It is absolutely outrageous and absolutely unacceptable. Of course, the cuts in local government support to Liverpool are not the only blows being dealt to the city. For example, the hated bedroom tax is already affecting more than 11,000 Liverpool households, which are losing an average of £14 a week. That combined with the additional council tax charges that the poorest people are being required to pay means that a large number of people are now being asked to pay £16 a week more. That might not sound much to a millionaire or to people who are extremely wealthy, but for a poor person in work struggling to survive on a low wage and to maintain their family, this is an additional hammer blow, which is unacceptable and disgraceful. One consequence is increasing debt for vulnerable people, and that is something about which the Government should be concerned. Instead, they seem to have washed their hands of it and simply do not care.
I have described the current situation in Liverpool in relation to previous revenue support grant settlements and to what is going to happen in the coming two years. It is all credit to the city of Liverpool, its elected council and elected mayor, that the city is resilient. It is fighting hard to support jobs, back enterprise and bring investment to the city. For example, the mayor has already restored the cruise liner terminal. The council promotes investment worth millions of pounds. It is about to host the international festival for business on behalf of the United Kingdom. It is delivering apprenticeships and it has protected people from the impact of Government cuts. However, this settlement makes that task harder; indeed it might even make it impossible. The people of Liverpool know what is happening and who is to blame. Even at this late hour, I ask the Government to think again about the unfair cuts they are inflicting on the people of Liverpool and treat Liverpool citizens with the respect they deserve.
Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con)
Devon, as we have heard today, is in a particularly difficult position, partly as a result of its rurality and size—we have more roads than Denmark, for example, and they take a lot of maintaining—and partly because of the age of our population. Teignbridge district council, my local authority, has the highest number of over-65s in the whole of the south-west. That puts a huge burden on councils, whether district or county.
The spending power of both types of local authority in Devon is determined by four key factors: the level of the revenue support grant; special support, particularly efficiency support for sparse areas; business rates; and council tax. The challenge with the revenue support grant, as we have heard, is that it has been massively squeezed—by some 8.5%. Why are the Government doing that? I entirely understand that they want to incentivise good behaviour, but Devon has been good. It has collected 98% of its council tax and cut its reserves to the bone. The average grant for rural Devon is 50% less than that for its urban counterparts.
What impact will that have on some of the very special services that we all value, such as education? Devon is sixth from the bottom in the education funding table. It gets £480 per pupil less than the average. I do not believe that is acceptable. To say that we can clearly do with less because we get good results is simply not true. It also has an impact on public health. In Devon we receive £29 per person—remember the age of our population—yet the national average is £51 per person.
The Government, and indeed previous Governments, have recognised that unfairness. They said in 2012 that it is not right, but so far nothing has been done. The ESSA—efficiency support for sparse areas—was intended to provide the answer. Although I am grateful that the figure this year will be £11.5 million, rather than the £8.5 million we had last year, because of damping it will give us less than 90p a head. We need three times more than that. How much of that funding will my local district council get? Last year it got £2,275, so I guess that this year it will get less than £2,500. Last year the county council got £741,318, so this year it will get less than £800,000.
The take for business rates assumes that businesses can afford to pay. Many businesses in my constituency are finding business rates one of the most difficult things they have to budget for. I am pleased that the Government have undertaken to cover the lost revenue through the 2% cap, which I welcome, but it is an ongoing challenge. The reality is that business rates, as currently constructed, help neither the taxpayer, nor the local authority. They are in need of substantial reform. Council tax, the other source of revenue, is a concern for those living in rural areas, because they already pay £86 per head more than those in urban areas. Even if there was no freeze, there is only so far the pips can be squeezed. Frankly, I do not believe that we can go any further.
In my view, therefore, the settlement penalises rural communities and does not reward good councils. I urge the Government to look at it very carefully, because this cannot go on. I would certainly like to see some progress made by this time next year.
Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
It is rare indeed that I make a foray into local government territory—I do not think that it is entirely helpful for previous Ministers to reprise their experiences—but I have spoken today on the police settlement and will speak in this debate because I have been galvanised by the sight of what is happening in my community.
When I came to the House of Commons 17 years ago, it is safe to say that Salford was not the most attractive place to live. We had a huge range of problems, including crime, family breakdown, drugs and dreadful housing provision. We found it virtually impossible to attract business investment, and nobody wanted to live, work or raise a family there. Over the past 16 years we have seen a transformation in Salford and in Eccles. In many ways it is hard to believe that it is the same place. We now have MediaCityUK, the BBC, ITV and Salford Quays. Tourists and visitors now spend £200 million in Salford. Who would even have thought that tourists would be visiting Salford for a weekend break?
For a time, we had the fastest-falling youth unemployment rate in the whole of the north-west region. Our young people were getting skills, they had aspirations, and they were getting decent jobs. We have had a huge amount of regeneration. We are just about to put the final piece of the jigsaw in place with the Pendleton Together programme, for which I am grateful for Government support; we got £120 million through a private finance initiative. That will mean that virtually all of the city has seen some regeneration over the past 15 years. Yet what am I seeing now? In relation to crime, I am seeing antisocial behaviour starting to creep back into the system, despite the valiant efforts of our police service. I am seeing youth unemployment rising at an absolutely heartbreaking rate. I am beginning to see all the advantages we have gained starting to be rolled back.
I believe that this settlement is unfair. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), the Chairman of the Select Committee, that we need to build a new system. The hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) said that we need a radical new system, and indeed we do, because the current system is badly hurting the most vulnerable people. Despite the success story of Salford, we remain a city with a huge number of vulnerable people, young and old. We have already put in place £97 million-worth of cuts over the past three years, and we have another £25 million-worth of cuts to make. Our spending power has been cut by 19.5%. On every single measure, our city is under strain, and many of our residents are now at breaking point. That is not just because of the local government settlement; it is the cumulative effect of the bedroom tax, which my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) mentioned, all the welfare reform provisions that have been introduced, and pressures on the health service.
Today we have had two debates. A Minister from the Home Office came to talk to us about policing, and now a Minister from the Department for Communities and Local Government has come to talk to us about local government. The cumulative effect of the cuts made by the Department for Work and Pensions in housing, transport, health and all the other areas is what matters to our constituents, because they do not see this in Government Department silo terms. In government, we said to local government, “You’ve got to get your act together. You’ve got to do Total Place, you’ve got to have community budgets, you’ve got to pool your budgets, your inspection regimes and your targets, because that’s the only way to survive this period of austerity.” That is absolutely right because it is the only way that we will be able to protect public services.
At central Government level, there is none of that joining up at all. A Cabinet Minister is judged on how big their budget is, how big their legislation is, or whether they are a big hitter; they are encouraged to operate as an individual. Yet we ought to be collaborating on all these issues. In the previous debate, I suggested that the Treasury ought to allocate interdependent budgets to two or three different Ministers so as to say, “Your success is dependent on your collaboration with your colleagues; we do not operate in silos.” On any company board, the sales director is dependent on the marketing director and the human resources director for the success of the enterprise. Our whole system of governing in this country is utterly old-fashioned and out of date.
This is nothing new. Five years ago, when I was in the Cabinet, I said to the Cabinet Secretary, “If you’re saying to local government, ‘You’ve got to join things up and look through a different lens’, then absolutely the same requirement is on central Government.” I am told that there is a bit of interest in this kind of reform at central Government level. I shall be pushing for that with every bit of my energy, because it is the only way that we, as a country, will be able to survive austerity. When my party comes back into government, which I hope will be very soon, we will face the same pressures. Being more creative, more innovative and more joined-up about the resources that we have to spend is the way we will make a difference.
I commend the report by the Local Government Association, “Rewiring public services”. It has done a brilliant job in trying to get some consensus across the political parties. It talks about more devolution, more co-location, a five-year funding settlement, fair sharing of resources across England, bringing all the Government Departments in England together, wider revenue-raising powers, and municipal bonds. That is the kind of innovation and creativity that we need. Just keeping on with this discredited route of salami-slicing our services will not protect the people who we all know are absolutely desperate. The sooner we get on with this programme of major reform, the better. I note the Minister’s invitation to me to come and make representations. I ask him, even at this late stage, please to consider the impact of this on some of the poorest people in my city, who are absolutely desperate at the moment.
Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). She made an interesting speech, as one would expect. Many hon. Members’ speeches have been powerful, not least in suggesting the weakness of the system that guides local government funding.
There is a consensus of disappointment—albeit unspoken on Labour Benches—about the speech made on behalf of Her Majesty’s Opposition by the hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford). It entirely lacked any alternative narrative or suggestion, other than a platitude about the system being fairer and needing to be looked at in future, to give us an idea of what the Labour party would do. The right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles was a Minister in the previous Government, and the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) was a senior figure in that Government. After all, the previous Government led us into this calamitous financial state, meaning that today’s Ministers have to make tough and difficult choices. Her Majesty’s Opposition’s total failure to recognise responsibility for the mess that the Government inherited, or to provide any insight into the tough decisions or choices they would make if they were ever allowed back into government by the British people, was disappointing. The House deserved better, and I expected more of the hon. Member for Corby, of whom I am actually an admirer.
I am a founder of Rural Fair Share, a cross-party campaign group of MPs from both sides of the House, and I am chair of the all-party group on rural services, so I make no apology for speaking from a rural perspective. Powerful speeches have been given by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox), the hon. Member for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey) and my hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris). There was a very Devonian quality to much of their speeches. They spoke effectively for Devon, but also for rural areas right across this country, not least the East Riding of Yorkshire.
As has been said—I make no apology for saying this again—people in rural areas earn less than those in urban ones. The idea that people in rural areas are somehow all prosperous and wealthy compared with the massively deprived populations of urban areas is false. In truth, people on lower incomes are paying £86 more per head in council tax. That came about under the system instituted by Labour Members who talk about the cost of living crisis. It sometimes feels as though they do so with crocodile tears. They put in place a system in which poorer people pay higher levels of council tax, while their councils receive £145 less per head in central Government grant than those in urban areas, and the cost of delivering services in rural areas is higher, as my right hon. and hon. Friends have said. Look at a map: where does it cost more to empty the bins—in the city or in the vast rural area around it? It is obvious that there are cost pressures.
Grahame M. Morris
The hon. Gentleman is selling a misconception to the House. Where are services more expensive? Let us look at the numbers for looked-after children, which, as he well knows as chair of the Education Committee, cost £40,000 to £50,000. In my area of Newcastle, there are 101 looked-after children per 10,000 of the population; in Wokingham, there are 24 per 10,000. That is an example of where costs are much higher.
Mr Stuart
It is fair to point out that Wokingham is not representative of all rural areas in this country. It is a rather unhelpful comparison. However, the hon. Gentleman is right to say that urban areas involve costs, and concentrated areas of deprivation have costs. No Government Members are suggesting complete equalisation, but to have an area with more low-income people paying higher levels of tax for fewer services is not sustainable.
I know that, in his heart of hearts, the hon. Gentleman was disappointed by the speech of the hon. Member for Corby, who simply failed to explain how Labour would wrestle with the issues. The Minister is wrestling with those issues. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman is trying to heckle me. What we heard from him was a defence of a system that is indefensible. [Interruption.] It is indefensible to suggest that the system was based on need and that consensus had somehow been smashed. The truth is that the previous Labour Government refused to listen to voices from all parts of the House representing the rural interest. In fact, they allocated four times the weighting to population density—not deprivation, but density—than to sparsity. That was unjustifiable, but, sadly, it continues to be a fundamental part of the system today.
I, too, am pleased that there has been a minuscule increase today in the diminutive grant to rural areas from £9.5 million to £11.5 million. However, even the larger figure would not stretch to a grab bag of crisps for each resident who lives in a rural area, although that might depend on how competitive one’s local grocer is. My hon. Friend the Member for North Devon laid out just how many decades it would take to equalise the figures. Those of us who speak on behalf of rural areas simply say to the Government that we must take more action to narrow the gap. We think that the 50% rural penalty—50% more funding goes to urban areas—should be reduced to no more than 40% within five years.
We have asked for more evidence. The Government have undertaken to carry out research on the cost of rural services. I fear, as do many of my hon. Friends, that the research will look just at rural services. It must compare the costs of services across urban and rural areas. It would then be able to pick up on the point made by the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) about the number of children who are in care and the cost pressures that arise from that.
Not only must the funding system be dynamic and reward successful councils that promote housing and business, but it must have a baseline that genuinely reflects need. The system that Ministers are wrestling with today was inherited from the Labour party. It is not fair and it does not properly reflect need. The fact that rural communities have been penalised so much for so long just goes to show how morally bankrupt are the arguments that we have heard from the Labour party.
Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)
I will concentrate on the settlement and the Government’s approach to localism.
I think that all Members accept that the United Kingdom remains one of the most centralised countries in the world. Most Members also accept that services are often better and more responsive when they are closer to communities and local people. There is a general consensus about the need for more localism. I accept that the Government have made some good decisions in respect of localism and have devolved some responsibilities to local government. They have not gone far enough, but they have made some progress. I was pleased that the Leader of the Opposition set out some principles earlier this week on the need for the further devolvement of responsibilities. The Government could do more to progress the localism agenda and that is reflected in the settlement. I will say more about that in a moment.
On Monday, I visited Manchester with the Communities and Local Government Committee. The Greater Manchester combined authority put forward a powerful argument for fiscal devolution. It wants more financial responsibilities to be devolved to local areas. I agree that there is a need for that, but the governance structures would have to be looked at.
I would like to make two important points about the settlement and localism. First and foremost, as the Chair of the Communities and Local Government Committee pointed out, the timing of the settlement has presented serious challenges for many local authorities, including Rochdale borough council. There has been considerable uncertainty and there are also issues with the information that is coming from the Treasury. There is no doubt that the Government need to inform local authorities earlier about their financial prospects. I understand that there was confusion because the Government left out vital information about small business rate relief and education services grants, and that caused problems for local authorities. It was not acceptable to spring the settlement on them for consultation 17 working days before Christmas. Local authorities cannot be expected to cope with those sorts of messages from the Government.
My second point is about crisis loans and the social fund that used to be administered by the Department for Work and Pensions. We now know that the Government decided to devolve that responsibility—we could call this localism—to local authorities so that they could administer crisis loans, community care grants and support to exceptionally vulnerable people. No one will be surprised to hear that when the Government devolved that funding to local governments, they cut it quite dramatically, and they now propose to cut it for the year ahead. We know from the settlement in December that the Government are cutting that funding to zero in 2015. It is good that the Government are localising that responsibility because local authorities can better understand people’s needs, but it is appalling that they have decided to cut to zero the funding for a safety net for the most vulnerable people in our society. That is not the sort of localism that the country wants or that people would expect.
Let me conclude with a few comments about the situation in Rochdale. It is right to say that when compared with more affluent councils, Rochdale has a relatively small council tax base and an equally small business rate base. Rochdale council does excellent work and has big ambitions, but the fact remains that Rochdale is reliant on the grant funding provided by Government. Because of that, the council is disproportionately affected by funding cuts of any size. The cumulative cuts in funding of nearly 23% to Rochdale council since the election put at risk all the work that the council is doing to help one of the most deprived communities in the country. Where cuts are made, they need to be fair. Those who can least afford to pay more, such as Rochdale council, should not be targeted for the deepest cuts, as they have been by this Government.
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
May I start by saying that I do not speak for my party on these issues? My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) does that. I find it discourteous to us as a party that the Chair routinely does not call the lead spokesperson from the Liberal Democrats at the appropriate point in these debates—that is a point for you, Mr Deputy Speaker, to take through.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. The hon. Gentleman can call his speech over now if he wishes and we will bring on somebody else—I would be more than happy. I hope he is not questioning the Chair and the way that people have been called. It is for the Liberal Democrats to inform the Chair about who is speaking, and not us working off a list. I hope he wishes to withdraw his earlier remarks.
Stephen Gilbert
I will certainly withdraw those remarks, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I will pass to my colleagues your guidance on how we can resolve that issue going forward.
Mr Deputy Speaker
I will not enter into a debate with the hon. Gentleman, but if Liberal Democrat Members do not know that after all these years, I do not think there is any help for them. Does he want to get on with the debate, or should I call somebody else?
Stephen Gilbert
Of course I do, Mr Deputy Speaker.
I have found this an invidious and divisive debate. It pits rural areas against urban, towns against cities, and north against south. Hon. Members from all sides of the House want to make the best representations for their local communities and get a fair deal for their local areas, but as my hon. Friends have demonstrated, particularly with Cornwall and Devon, this debate pits rural against urban communities. I hope that the Minister can see across the House, across the parties and across the rural-urban divide a desire to consider fundamentally how we reform local government finance in the future, whether that involves my hon. Friends the Members for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) and for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey), or the Chair of the Communities and Local Government Committee who is from Sheffield. There is a clear desire to consider properly and fundamentally how we as a national Government grant resources to local councils. At the moment we have this annual theatre in which Members from across the House pop up and defend their individual parts of the country, but without a settled consensus on how the debate goes forward.
I want to speak not about the size of the local government settlement—I recognise, as I am sure my hon. Friend the Minister does, that the economic situation bequeathed to the coalition Government by the Labour party makes an increase in spending very difficult—but about the balance between rural and urban areas. As my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon so eloquently put on the record, urban areas have historically received 50% more per capita funding than rural areas, despite the fact that in rural areas such as Cornwall people on average pay higher council tax, earn lower wages and have higher housing costs as a proportion of their income. Local authorities, whether in Cornwall, Torridge and West Devon or North Devon, face difficulties in delivering services across rural and sparsely populated areas.
The Government have recognised this. In the spending settlement for 2013-14, they suggested that £200 million would be made available to increase the ability of rural authorities to meet those challenging circumstances. What happened, however, was that three quarters of that gain was damped so that the authorities losing out—the urban authorities, pretty much—did not suffer a sudden fall in funding. What we did not expect, and what nobody expected at that point, was that the Government would suspend moving the remaining three quarters of that gain until at least 2020, kicking the argument into the long grass and further delaying a fair settlement for authorities such as Cornwall.
What we have seen today in the Government’s increase in the ESSSA, or efficiency support for services in sparse areas, grant is welcome, but it is really just an additional £2 million on top of a paltry £9 million. If that £11 million is divided across the 95 most rural local authorities, they will have barely enough money to employ a full-time officer to work out the differential between what they should be receiving as a rural area and what they are getting. I suggest to my hon. Friend the Minister that while it is welcome—it would be churlish to look a gift horse in the mouth, as it will make a difference—it is woefully insufficient to start to close the divide between rural and urban funding that so bedevils parts of the country such as Cornwall.
Sarah Newton
My hon. Friend is making a powerful case and I agree with everything he says about Cornwall. Will he reflect on what we have learnt this evening from my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) and perhaps take up those arguments with the urban Members of his own party, so there can be a proper way forward?
Stephen Gilbert
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. She makes the point that I started with: this is a very divisive debate, pitting colleagues within parties on all sides of the House against each other. It pits towns against the countryside and city councils against district councils. That speaks to the fundamental need for overall reform and cross-party consensus on how we deliver local government funding in a way that meets needs on the ground and is equitable across the country, because it ain’t doing that at the moment. I have joined a number of colleagues on the Government Benches in presenting arguments to the Government to the effect that the rural-urban divide needs to be eradicated over time.
Mr Graham Stuart
Further to the intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton), if it is the case that Members of the hon. Gentleman’s party are standing in the way of a fairer settlement for rural areas, it may be worth having a quiet word. I would certainly urge him to do so, if that is the blockage.
Stephen Gilbert
There is no suggestion that any one of my colleagues, as opposed to any one of my hon. Friend’s colleagues on his side of the coalition, is standing in the way of tackling this funding formula. Of course, one of his colleagues is the Secretary of State. I think both the hon. Gentleman and I know that the funding formula bequeathed to us by the Labour party is one that really put in place the disparity between rural and urban areas, and one that he and I and all our colleagues on the Government Benches are asking our right hon. Friends in the Treasury and in the Department for Communities and Local Government to address.
I have joined colleagues on this side of the House in presenting the case for a fairer funding formula for Cornwall to Government. I am disappointed, to say the least, that that case has not been heard today. On that basis, it would be wrong for me to support what I think is an inadequate settlement tonight, and I shall continue to work with colleagues from all parts of the House to try to find consensus on how we deliver local government funding that is fit for purpose.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
Hull is a very proud and resilient city, despite many setbacks that include being one of the most heavily bombed cities in the second world war outside of London and the loss of the fishing industry in the 1970s. Now we are looking at opportunities to renew Hull. We are looking at building on the city plan to develop our renewables industry and to develop and extend the industry around the Humber, and of course we have been nominated as city of culture for 2017, building on the wonderful facilities that we have in the city, like Hull Truck theatre and our excellent museum quarter, and the possibility of a Hockney gallery. I pay tribute to the Labour council in Hull and its leader, Councillor Brady, for having a vision of how Hull can go forward positively.
However, we are hampered by the unfair slashing of the local authority funding to Hull, repeated in many other northern cities. That is despite the Government saying, when they came to power, that they wanted to rebalance the economies of the north and south and address the problems of the general split between north and south. Hull is losing 25% of its budget. Of course, Hull has traditionally relied on central Government grants because our low property values mean we have a low council tax base and we have high levels of need. I fundamentally object to what the Minister said in his opening remarks—he said that local government was moving away from the begging bowl approach. That says a lot about the way he sees local government funding.
My city has more people in long-term unemployment than anywhere else in the United Kingdom. In one ward in Hull, men live seven years less than the English average. We have more low-skilled jobs, part-time work and people on zero-hours contracts than many other parts of the country. From this unfair local authority funding cut, we have already seen nearly 2,600 real jobs go in our local authority. I stress that those are real jobs—care assistants, and early years workers and support workers for troubled teenagers so that we do not end up having to spend a lot more money down the road when those children grow up and have more problems. Those are real jobs that are necessary in a city like Hull, and of course, when people lose their jobs, their spending power is lost to the local economy.
My constituents are finding out that the Government are balancing the books on the backs of the elderly, the disabled and the young, through the DWP changes that we have seen, such as the cruel bedroom tax, with 4,228 claimants affected in my city. Some 20,000 people who previously did not have to pay any council tax will now have to pay 8.5%, which will go up to 20% next year. As my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) said, it is the pressure on the low-paid and the vulnerable that is really affecting cities such as Liverpool and Hull.
It is suggested that efficiency savings can be made, but they have already been made—they are long gone. It is not the fat that is being eaten into now; it is the bone. Hull was very badly flooded in 2007, and it is at such times that the resources that are available to local authorities, the fire brigade and the police come together to provide the support that communities need when they are in crisis. If we cut and cut and cut, those support mechanisms will no longer be there. My heart goes out to people in the south who are suffering flooding problems currently, but perhaps they are recognising that cutting statutory services is very foolish in the long run. The statutory services are retreating into their silos, which is not helpful for dealing with crises in our communities.
As I have said, when the Government came into office, they said they wanted to rebalance the economy between the north and the south, but the unfairness of the cuts in our city means we are struggling to provide support to our communities, develop the skills in our communities and bring businesses in. We just do not have the resources to do those things.
When Labour was in government, the Liberal Democrats always called for more money for Hull, but in this House they have consistently voted all the way to cut money for my city. The Liberal Democrats on Hull city council have now called for a council tax freeze, which would mean even more cuts to services. Lib Dems support the unfairness of the cuts to areas in the north such as mine. At the last general election, they pretended to be friends of the north and said they would stand up for Hull, Sheffield, Leeds and other cities, but the people of those cities will very well remember the actions of the Liberal Democrats in government. They are not friends of the north and that will not be forgotten.
Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)
To date, committed local authorities under all parties for the most part have managed to protect front-line services. I should like to put on record that credit is due to many councillors throughout the country, particularly given that satisfaction in council services has increased.
However, today we discuss yet another difficult financial settlement. I want to start with some positives. I welcome the extra funding to enable councils to freeze council tax for the next two years despite the fact that I believe in localism and look forward to times when it will be appropriate for more local choices to be made. Given the inherited economic situation in 2010 and the measures that have had to be taken, it has been vital to protect our constituents from further pressures on their costs of living. I note with some pride that most if not all Liberal Democrat-controlled councils are expected to freeze council tax in 2014-15—a record that, I suspect, cannot be matched by the other two major parties.
I welcome the increased efficiency grant. I have always been supportive of business rate retention as an incentive for growth and job creation and hope it can be further localised in future. I welcome the changes that have been made on the new homes bonus—a consequence of the Government listening—so that more money goes directly to local councils than was once expected. However, I recognise that London councils face considerable top-slicing and are at a disadvantage.
I welcome the move to support adult social care and the challenge to local councils to integrate health and social care services, but I am deeply concerned about whether the funding will be adequate to deal with the needs of our most vulnerable constituents. City deals and the regional growth fund provide opportunities for further decentralisation, which I welcome, along with the additional funding. I welcome the extra funding for rural councils, but I concur with hon. Members who have said that that in no way gets to the heart of the matter. The rural penalty has been with us for a long time. I represent part of Purbeck district council and have presented a petition in the House on the matter. The gap goes on and on. We are not closing it. I have constituents on low wages and there are very high housing costs.
Bus services are among the many services being cut in the rural part of my constituency—I do not apologise for bringing it up again. My constituents, whether they are going to work or college, non-catchment sixth forms, apprenticeships or work training, are simply unable to use buses, as are tourists. The most recent cuts have made the situation diabolical. From April, in one large village, with a population of 1,800, whose bus route goes through several other villages, there will be a bus to Poole only two days a week, and evening services at 5.30 pm are being slashed, meaning that workers are not being supported. I have received representations from Colehill, Wareham town council and right across the rural part of my constituency about this matter, so will the Minister meet his counterparts in the Department for Transport to discuss this serious issue? Basically, some of my constituents face a stark choice: use a car or move from the village. That is very harsh.
I remain concerned about the local council tax reduction scheme. I understand from the National Association of Local Councils that about 20 billing authorities are not passing on council tax support funding to parish councils. What further action can the Minister take? Indeed, do billing authorities have any certainty about this stream of funding for the future? I am pleased, however, that the referendum principles have not been extended to the parish councils. Some of the deficits in services can be made up as reductions are made in other areas.
Local government is facing a tough situation, and the Government must listen to councils that fear they are facing a cliff edge or a precipice in future years. I also think that the rural penalty must be addressed sooner rather than later. We need to appreciate what local government does best, which is pulling local government services together. I support the rewiring of local government services as put forward by the Local Government Association. Among other things, local government borrowing that complies with prudential rules should be facilitated, but at the same time, I thank the Government for allowing councils to borrow more money in the last financial year. I want more, not fewer, and better quality services delivered by local government, and I want other services facilitated too.
Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)
I want to touch on my concerns about the overall settlement and about my own area of County Durham.
I commend to hon. Members who have not seen it the excellent briefing note provided by the House of Commons Library. Frankly, any impartial observer reading it would realise that it makes a complete mockery of the local government Minister’s claim that this is a fair settlement. He suggested that those with the broadest shoulders should bear the biggest burden, but that is clearly not happening. At a time when ordinary people across the country—certainly in my constituency—are struggling with the cost of living crisis, the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government think it is right that the most deprived communities in the country should bear the brunt of Government cuts, while the most affluent areas should escape relatively unscathed.
I say that advisedly. The revenue support grant for Durham is being cut by £28 million. It is suggested that these cuts have been applied fairly, but of the 14 councils in England that are receiving an increase, 13 have Tory MPs, four of whom are Cabinet Ministers. To my mind, this is gerrymandering of the revenue support grant, and it is targeting mainly Labour-held councils. They are the principal losers, because they are being targeted for much deeper cuts than their Conservative counterparts, and it is having a devastating impact on their ability to provide services locally.
I am amazed at the audacity of Government Members who claim that we are all in this together. During this Parliament, the 10 most deprived areas in England, including mine, are receiving cuts 10 times greater than the most affluent areas. Despite all the Government’s rhetoric about rebalancing the economy, Durham county council’s cumulative spending power is being reduced by a staggering 17.3% under this Government. The Treasury calculated that, for the period from 2011-17, £222 million is being lost. Conservative and Lib Dem Members were saying that we need to address the disparity between urban and rural areas. Members who represent affluent areas should come to my constituency; they should come to Peterlee and to Horden and see the problems that we have. They would then understand the lack of car ownership, the problems that people have in accessing services and their disadvantages.
Adult social care and children’s services account for over 60% of our expenditure. We have heard about the Barnett graph of doom, where all local government revenue will go on statutory functions, particularly social care. Many authorities, particularly in the north, will hit the buffers. The hon. and learned Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox) suggested something similar was going to happen in the south-west. It should be a cause of concern for all of us.
It has somehow been implied that we are undeserving. My late father was a coal miner. County Durham made enormous sacrifices for the nation. The county has been scarred by a legacy of coal mining, shipbuilding and steelworks. That has a legacy in people’s health that we must recognise in greater need. There is a debt of honour that the Government should recognise. Consensus on the equalisation element of the revenue support grant has existed across all parties since the war. It is a serious matter to break it.
There are alternatives. My hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) mentioned the discussions that have taken place with the Local Government Association, but we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater. The Government will be putting authorities such as mine under the most intense pressure and, quite frankly, the wheels will come off. They will not be able to deliver services. This will result in children and older people in deprived areas such as mine suffering worse services than their counterparts in more affluent parts of the country. That seems to me to be a perversity.
In areas such as County Durham, with a relatively small council tax base due to low house values—some 60% or 70% of the properties in my constituency are in band A—there are problems because of the greater use of local council tax support schemes. What does that mean? It means that we have a greater reliance upon Government grants to maintain the same level of services. So when grants are cut—even in the same proportion as in affluent areas—areas such as mine suffer the most. If this is the rebalancing of the economy that the Government are trumpeting, they are ignoring the reality of people’s needs. It is Robin Hood in reverse: rewarding those living under Tory councils at the expense of those in Labour councils.
Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)
I am glad to be the last speaker in this debate and that my patience has paid off. I am very keen to talk about the one thing on which there has been consensus: the overall local government settlement. The argument is very much to what extent the cake is split. I accept that the coalition Government had to do something about public spending in general. Local government spending is some £22 billion, or 25% to 30% of total public expenditure. When some three and a half years ago we inherited, from the previous Government probably the biggest deficit since the second world war, it was absolutely essential that we did something about it.
I very much welcome the fact that the Prime Minister has been several times down to the west country. The Bellwin formula is being looked at so that we can repair the coastline and do something about the flooding, in order to put the west country, and Devon and Cornwall in particular, literally back on the map of the railway system. It is essential that that is done.
I say this to Ministers—[Interruption.] I see that the Minister has returned to the Chamber; I very much welcome him back. We have had some interesting meetings with him and with the Secretary of State, at which we have been treated very courteously. Some £11 million has been found to get a fairer share for rural authorities—the generosity overwhelms me—but we are asking for another £20 million a year for five years to reduce the anomaly. What is £20 million out of £22 billion? By my arithmetic, it is less than 10% of 1%, or 0.01%. That is all we need to recognise and address the fact that local authorities in rural areas are not treated fairly. We pay some £85 more in council tax on average and receive £145 less in grant from the Government. That needs to be settled.
I have said this before, but Devon has more roads than the whole of Belgium, which imposes a huge cost. In January, it was estimated that some 7,500 potholes needed to be filled in Devon alone. All this will add an enormous cost to the delivery of our services. Bus services in Devon and the concessionary scheme cost the county council some £10 million. This is a concession that the county council makes: it does not have to find that money, but it makes sure that the people of Devon can get those concessionary fares.
The schools in Devon are much smaller than many across the country and are very spread out, with rural school transport imposing another cost. All these things have a huge impact on Devon county council. Devon county council has reduced its staffing by some 3,000 people over the last few years. It is therefore a lean, mean council that is delivering good headline and front-line services, but we need that help—not only for Devon county council, but for East Devon district council and Mid Devon district council, which is probably one of the most rural in the country.
My colleagues have made the point that when people drive through Devon and Cornwall, they see many parts that look hugely prosperous, but among them are some of the poorest people and the lowest wages. We welcome many tourists down to Devon and Cornwall, and when they retire from these wonderful, affluent areas of London and the home counties, as they love to do, that drives up house prices. That means that the local people have to pay an awful lot more for their homes. Therefore, those on lower wages are paying higher council tax than they should be and we are having lower services delivered than we should.
I urge Ministers—[Interruption.] I see that the Secretary of State is now in the Chamber; I very much welcome his listening to us. I ask that one of these days we finally sit down and agree the figures for the anomaly. Dare I say it, but another Secretary of State talked about moving the goalposts, and I think sometimes the goalposts do get moved when we sit down and talk about local government finance. I think Ministers accept that, which is why we put in place a formula to review the costs of delivering rural services and why we started to move money across in 2013-14. However, we have now put a damper on that and stopped that money flowing across.
I suggest that we sit down to discuss this and turn on the tap again, so that the funds can start to flow and we can get a fair settlement, because we will not get a fair settlement from Labour Members, who spent all the money, borrowed and created huge debts. It is therefore up to this Government to sort out the anomaly. I look forward to working with the Secretary of State to ensure that that happens, because the people in rural areas of Devon and across the country deserve a better deal and they expect this Government to deliver it.
Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)
As I spent time contemplating this financial settlement for local government, I was reminded of my recent rereading of that towering classic of Victorian literature, Charles Dickens’ “A Tale of Two Cities”. That is basically what we have here: a tale of two local governments.
For some, it is, relatively speaking, the best of times. The comfortable twin towns of Reigate and Banstead and the wonderful Wokingham have barely been touched by the Secretary of State’s funding scythe. No shadow of Madame Guillotine stalks local government in the home counties. Indeed, as we have heard, some have even seen cumulative growth in spending power per household under this Government.
Local government is the most efficient part of the public sector and it is likely to be commended for its customary ability and experience of doing more with the same resources or the same for less. Innovation and service improvement are in the DNA of local government.
I was a local councillor for 18 years in Newham. We constantly challenged what we did and how we did it, and what we spent our money on. We were aware of the need to get every pound of value out of services, recognising that no service can stand still. We challenged ourselves so that we could direct investment to new priorities. That is the way of all well-managed councils, whatever their political complexion, but these swingeing cuts take councils well beyond the capacity to manage change in such a way.
We heard excellent speeches from my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) and my hon. Friends the Members for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden), for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) and for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) in which they spoke eloquently of the effect of the cuts.
For other parts of local government, the Liverpools, Newcastles, Manchesters and Blackpools—and, indeed, the Newhams and Hackneys—of this world, it is absolutely the worst of times. I must join my colleagues in drawing the attention of the House to the strong correlation between the cumulative level of cuts and deprivation. There is clear evidence that the poorest areas are being hit hardest.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) elucidated, it is the people in those communities and others like them who are bearing the brunt of the cuts. As we have heard, the 10 most deprived areas will, over this Parliament, have their spending power cut by 10 times the amount that the least deprived areas will. We will see a reduction in or the removal of vital local authority services, putting further pressure on struggling households and families. Hard times indeed.
Increased charges for essential services, the bedroom tax, and the localisation of council tax benefit—for localisation, read cuts—are having an impact on the most vulnerable in our communities. No wonder we see the burgeoning use of food banks, with people driven by desperation, despite the humiliation they feel, to rely on their neighbours for food and sustenance for themselves and their children. That will only get worse, as many are resorting to payday loans as an alternative source of money for food, warmth and rent.
My local authority, Newham, estimates that its real-term cuts will be about 39% between 2010-11 and 2015-16. That represents a cut of £97.6 million, or £300 for every resident. Compare that with a reduction of £16.6 million for Richmond upon Thames, or £88 per head.
It is not just in areas with Labour MPs that that unfairness is played out. Thanks to my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham), I have been given access to some research carried out by the House of Commons Library. It shows the cumulative reduction over five years for the following Labour-led councils: minus 26.66% for Stockton, minus 23.63% for Broxtowe, minus 19.85% for Norwich and minus 19% for Thurrock. On the other hand, let us look at Surrey Heath, where the reduction is minus 0.75%. In Waverley, it is minus 0.37%. In Elmbridge, it is minus 0.25%. The winner? Epsom and Ewell, with a whopping increase of 3.51% over those five years.
Those local authorities share some characteristics. Not only are they in the least deprived local authority areas, but they are all represented in this place by Cabinet members. Where on earth is the fairness in that? It does not seem to me that we are all in this together. It seems that the Government are shredding the lives and the communities of the most vulnerable, while they make sure that people like them are protected. For shame. For shame. These cuts have a real cost, just as the cuts to the Environment Agency have had a cost. In local government cuts there is a cost to libraries, to looked-after children and to social care, and there will be a cost to an already struggling NHS.
My hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) in his super speech and my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) spoke eloquently about the fact that this is the year the Government have decided not to provide a dedicated resource to take the very poorest out of council tax liability. In the first six months of this financial year, 670,000 people faced bailiffs. What is the biggest calumny in this? The Government use the stick of non-collection of council tax from those low-waged council tax payers to beat the councils with. It is not Dickensian, it is Orwellian.
We can see from this local government settlement that the whole ethos of local government funding has shifted away from need. Those councils most dependent on Government funding, those with the lowest council tax base, those that are most deprived, are the ones that are being hit hardest. Councils for wealthier areas, unsurprisingly, have a larger council tax base, further insulating them from the chill experienced elsewhere.
This is a callous, cruel, short-sighted and just plain wrong approach. I cannot envisage a worse approach. It is another example of the Government balancing the books on the backs of the poor. But along with the charge of unfairness, along with the charge of partisan government, must come the charge of indifference. As my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) said in his excellent speech, the autumn statement was late. The provisional local government settlement announcement was late, as was the council tax referendum limit announcement. How can the Government not understand that their dilatory complacency makes it so much harder for councils to plan for the excessive cuts that the Government have imposed? This settlement is wrong and it is callous. It takes money from poor areas and distributes it to those who are not in such need. I urge my hon. Friends and others in the Chamber who cannot accept the Government’s unfair settlement to join me in voting against it.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Stephen Williams)
We have had 15 interesting speeches, plus other speeches from the Front Bench. I remind Members of the context in which the debate is taking place. The Government came to power with the pressing need to balance the nation’s books, and that meant reductions in all areas of Government spending, and local government has had to pay its fair share. Over the last few years the Government have had to make some tough decisions about public finances—tough decisions that the last Government shied away from in their last two years in office. The crash, remember, was in 2008.
But those tough decisions are now paying dividends. The national deficit has been reduced by a third, unemployment has fallen and employment is at an all time high, so it is vital that we stick to the disciplined course that we have set for ourselves. Like every part of the public sector, local government has had to pay its share to reduce that deficit and get the nation’s finances back on a stable footing. If I can characterise the comments made by most Labour Members, with some exceptions, this has all led to total unfairness to all of their cities and constituencies.
To remind Members again about the context, this Government have decided to protect the national health service budget in real terms. This Government have protected the schools budget in cash terms. This Government have put huge amounts of money behind children who, like me, were on free school meals. All of that money will benefit Salford, Liverpool, Sheffield and other places. We have also taken the poorest in society who are working out of the income tax threshold. We have raised the national minimum wage. We have raised the apprentice wage. We have raised the state pension. We have built more social houses than the last Government, and this Government will be the first in 30 years to leave office with more affordable and social housing in the housing stock. Together, we are building a stronger economy and a fairer society, in which everyone can get on in life.
Stephen Williams
I will take one intervention, from the Chairman of the Select Committee.
Stephen Williams
Many Members have contrasted the spending power of cities with that of southern authorities. However, it is absolutely clear that the spending power of authorities such as Newcastle is far in excess of that of many other authorities with similar responsibilities but entirely different demographics. It is completely wrong to say that unfairness is built into the system, given that the top 10% of the most deprived authorities in the country are the authorities with the most power to spend on their citizens.
As has been acknowledged during the debate, we are moving to an entirely new system of local government finance. I accept that there is more to be done and that there is a need for reform in the system, but I am sure that that reform will come when the economy has fully recovered.
Reference has been made to the amounts that are raised through council tax, and the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis), was criticised for his “language of begging bowl”. As someone who, when I was a council opposition leader in Bristol, went on deputations to local government Ministers in both the other parties, let me put it this way: local government had a supplicant relationship with central Government, and that is what this Government are trying to change. We are putting more incentives in the system for local authorities to build more houses. The business rates retention will encourage local economic growth: for the first time, local authorities will retain more of the benefit from economic growth in their own areas rather than handing 100% of it to the people in the Treasury, so that they can decide how much should be distributed around the country according to their own formulas and principles.
Another of the new incentives is the new homes bonus. I am sure that the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Kris Hopkins), will be pleased that his authority in Bradford is to receive £2 million in new homes bonus. Leeds will receive £3 million in new homes bonus, and my city of Bristol will receive £2.2 million.
The other major criticism that we have heard today is that some parts of the country have lost out at the expense of others, either as a result of this settlement or over a long period. However, the settlement represents a fair deal for every part of the country—north and south, district and county, city and shire. As I said a few moments ago to the Chairman of the Select Committee, councils have an average spending power of £2,089 per household, and the average spending power reduction will be just 2.9% in the forthcoming year. Moreover, protection is built into the system for the most deprived areas of the country, which are the most dependent on grant.
We have also recognised that services are sometimes more difficult and expensive to deliver in rural areas. Many Members, particularly those on the Government Benches, recognised the real difficulty that rural authorities experience in delivering services to their constituents. I certainly recognise that poverty is found in all parts of the country. It is not necessarily concentrated only in city-centre constituencies such as mine; it is found in Barnstaple, in St Austell, and in many other rural and sparsely populated parts of the country. That is why we have already set aside £9.5 million—£1 million more than last year—to help the authorities in the most sparsely populated rural areas.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey)—there were many Devonian speakers in the debate—for saying that we ought to go a little further. In fact, today we have announced a significant amount of extra money: £2 million. That means an extra £44,000 for North Devon district council. My hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) said that the average per authority was £30,000, but Cornwall’s unitary authority will have just over half a million pounds extra.
Local authorities need to protect taxpayers by keeping their council tax down. For many of our constituents, the council tax bill represents a huge part of their monthly outgoings. In many cases, it is much more significant than other utility bills, so to denigrate the Government’s policy of encouraging local authorities to freeze council tax is to miss a major point of what the Opposition call the cost of living crisis. If they do not recognise that council tax is part of the cost of living pressure that all our constituents face, they are living in another world.
It is no surprise to find that Labour Members live in another world. Under the previous Government, council tax more than doubled, pushing a typical bill up to £120 a month for hard-working people and pensioners. This Government, however, have done everything possible to protect families from further increases. Over the past three years, council tax bills have been cut by 10% in real terms across England, and we are encouraging local authorities to continue to freeze their council tax. We will further incentivise them to do that not only by offering them a grant but by putting that grant into the baseline so that they can have certainty for future years.
Already, 137 local authorities have confirmed that they intend to reduce or freeze their council tax bills, including—as my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) pointed out—almost all the Liberal Democrat local authorities. They include the local authorities led by directly elected mayors in Watford and Bedford, and the Liberal Democrats in my own city of Bristol want our city’s mayor to follow their example.
The referendum principle has been mentioned by many speakers today. The hon. Member for Sheffield South East criticised the Government for taking time to announce what the referendum threshold should be. We confirmed on 5 February that it will remain at 2%, which was the assumption that the local authorities were working on when planning their budgets. The hon. Gentleman was around during the last Parliament, and I must gently remind him that the previous Government frequently capped local authority council tax increases without announcing the cap until March, after the local authorities had set their budgets and started to prepare the bills to pop through people’s letter boxes. We have certainly improved on that situation.
There are many things that local authorities can do to balance their books in an efficient way. The Government are encouraging such efficiencies, and there is still plenty of scope. For instance, the Liberal Democrat council in Kingston-upon-Thames is investing in a combined heat and power system that will benefit its council buildings and private sector buildings, saving money and carbon at the same time. Cambridge council is protecting and enhancing local shops, which is good for local residents, good for tourists and good for local economic growth. The process is now being incentivised by the retention of business rates.
Mr Graham Stuart
Further to the speech that my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) made earlier, will the Minister confirm or deny that the Liberal Democrats stood in the way of a fairer deal for rural areas?
Stephen Williams
I am not privy to every conversation that takes place, as my hon. Friend knows. I can assure him, however, that possibly the most powerful person in the Government with his hands on the purse strings from our side of the coalition, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, is most certainly a friend of rural areas. He has pushed for the freeze in fuel duty, which is another example of the Government listening to the cries for help from rural communities. There is a danger, in these debates, that we see matters purely in the context of the silo of our own Department. I agree entirely with the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears)—the former Secretary of State for this Department—that it is a mistake for Governments to do that, and we have not done it. Across the piece, we are doing our bit to help rural areas, including through freezing fuel duty. Had Labour’s plans been put into effect, rural motoring would have cost much more.
There is more that local government can do to hold down costs. An example can be seen in the tri-borough initiative in west London, involving Hammersmith and Fulham, Kensington and Chelsea, and Westminster councils. The leader of Kensington and Chelsea council told me recently that the initiative was on track to save £40 million by combining back office and management services.
In conclusion, this coalition Government are all about building a stronger economy and a fairer society in order to help people to get on in life by giving them more power to decide what happens in their community and supporting their local area in ways that will allow their community to thrive and prosper. There is no doubt that some difficult decisions have had to be made about public finances, and councils cannot be exempted from that process. But councils have taken important steps towards modernising and transforming their services, and I certainly pay tribute, on behalf of all of my colleagues, to the efforts that many councils have made to live within their difficult budgets. I also think we must all acknowledge that more could be done to reduce the costs of delivering their services while keeping council tax down, and I have every confidence that they will rise to the challenge.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Division off.
Question agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Referendums Relating to Council Tax Increases (Principles) (England) Report 2014-15 (HC 1056), which was laid before this House on 5 February, be approved.
Local Government Finance Report (England) 2014-15
Motion made, and Question put,
That the Local Government Finance Report (England) 2014-15 (HC 1055), which was laid before this House on 5 February, be approved.—(Brandon Lewis.)
Business without Debate
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Deferred Divisions
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Petitions
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to present a petition from 4,281 residents of South Staffordshire and other areas protesting against the proposals to build on green-belt land between Cheslyn Hay and Great Wyrley.
The petition states:
The Petition of residents of Great Wyrley and Cheslyn Hay in the South Staffordshire constituency, and others,
Declares that the current proposals to build a car park, health centre and over 140 houses on greenbelt land by Landywood Lane, Great Wyrley will lead to the erosion of the distinct identity of our individual villages and could cause substantial environmental damage; further notes that despite the rejection by South Staffordshire District Council of the current proposals, in line with public opinion, the applicant has appealed to the Planning Inspectorate to ignore the wishes of local residents and overturn the council’s decision.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to take all possible steps to ensure that the Planning Inspectorate upholds the decision reached by South Staffordshire District Council and rejects these proposals so that the greenbelt can be conserved for future generations.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P001318]
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Since Mr Speaker is an ex officio Church Commissioner, he will be aware that on Monday 10 February a petition was delivered to the General Synod of the Church of England at Church House here in Westminster. May I appeal to you, Sir, to ask him, on behalf of my constituents, to take whatever steps he is able to ensure that that matter in the petition—the continued use of the bishop’s palace in Wells as the home of the bishops of Bath and Wells, as has been the custom and tradition for over 800 years—is discussed fully at the Church Commissioners’ next meeting and that the views of the petitioners are taken into account? I am most grateful, Sir, for your attention to this matter.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for giving me notice of that point of order. Obviously I can give no direct help, but I will ensure that Mr Speaker is aware of what has been said. I know that he is an avid reader of Hansard and will already have picked up on this before I speak to him. It may be helpful to the hon. Lady if I say that Church Commissioners questions is coming up tomorrow and she may be ingenious enough to raise it there as well.
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
The petition relates to the Church Commissioners’ decision to relocate the Bishop of Bath and Wells from the flat in the bishop’s house, which they condemn as unsuitable for temporary living accommodation, citing reasons of sustainability and privacy. The diocese and the palace trust have expressed publicly their opposition, as have thousands of local residents who want to understand how the flat in the bishop’s house can be unsuitable, particularly when considerable sums were spent on repairs and maintenance four years ago; how travelling several miles to work, worship and back can be considered sustainable; and how a property on the A371 can be more private than the secluded flat in the bishop’s house, with its private garden, when the palace is closed to visitors from 4 pm at this time of year and 6 pm in the summer.
The petition states:
The Petition of residents of the UK,
Declares that the Petitioners believe that the Church Commissioners’ decision to move the Bishop of Bath and Wells from the Bishop’s Palace and Gardens is a mistake and further that a local Petition on this subject has received well over 2,000 signatures.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Church Commissioners to wait until the new Bishop of Bath and Wells takes up office and then reconsiders and consults on whether he should reside at Bishop’s Palace and Gardens.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P001319]
Ugandan Anti-homosexuality Law
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)
The Anti-Homosexuality Bill was passed by the Ugandan Parliament on 20 December 2013. It is now with President Museveni to be signed, returned with amendments or ignored, in which case it will become law automatically.
The law will extend the existing colonial anti-sodomy laws. It threatens maximum life sentences for those who commit a new offence of aggressive homosexuality, which is repeatedly to have homosexual sex, to have homosexual sex when HIV-positive, or with a disabled person or minor. Landlords will face imprisonment for renting to homosexuals or LGBT—lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender—organisations. The promotion of homosexuality will now be banned, which will effectively outlaw LGBT organisations and charities and significantly hamper HIV/AIDS work.
If this law is passed, Uganda will join a club of nations not only committed to the criminalisation of homosexual acts, but determined to expand legal discrimination beyond the normal boundaries of historical bigotry. The year 2013 was a disheartening one for LGBT activists worldwide: Nigeria and Russia passed and enacted their versions of the Anti-Homosexuality Bill, India took a step backwards as its Supreme Court re-criminalised the sexual practice of one of the world’s largest LGBT populations, and the Singaporean Supreme Court rejected an appeal against its colonial era sodomy laws.
Those who support international human rights cannot accept that trend with a sense of mute, inert inevitability. Ugandan activists have demanded that we act; let us not fail to hear them. As the Parliamentary Friends of the Kaleidoscope Trust are aware, last week I and colleagues met Dr Frank Mugisha, the director of Sexual Minorities Uganda, which is Uganda’s largest LGBT group. Although we cannot and should not be seen in the developed world as dictating the direction of local LGBT movements and inadvertently making their position even more difficult, Dr Mugisha was unequivocal about the necessity of our support.
The Bill’s supporters have repeatedly labelled homosexuality as alien to Africa, and as yet another element of western cultural imperialism, along with global brand fast-food restaurants, capitalism and secularism. That is a wishful fantasy for the African homophobe. Far from being esoteric or non-existent, the history of African homosexuality is increasingly well documented. In pre-colonial Uganda alone, same-sex relationships existed among the Bahima, Banyoro and Baganda tribes. The Iteso and the Lango tribes sanctioned men of alternative gender status, and the Lango even allowed mukodo dako, as they called them, to marry.
In fact, one western import is notably responsible for the current homophobia that is rife in Uganda—a hateful strand of Christianity, of the sort that prompted British sodomy laws to be enacted throughout the empire that still scar much of the Commonwealth. Those laws have been used as a fig leaf for bigotry. They represent the worst of the repressive colonial inheritance, not the well-intentioned colonial era good Samaritans, and those who wished to love their African neighbours as themselves. This aggressive, authoritarian version of Christianity is now preached by the disgraceful Scott Lively who, having mined the depths of prejudice in his own country, is now seeking to expand this hatred into Uganda.
A Christianity inclusive of homosexuality is not and should not be the exclusive preserve of western theologians. Archbishop Desmond Tutu made his feelings on the issue quite plain earlier this year:
“I would refuse to go to a homophobic Heaven. No, I would say sorry, I mean I would much rather go to the other place. I would not worship a God who is homophobic and that is how deeply I feel about this. I am as passionate about this campaign as I ever was about Apartheid.”
President Museveni has committed himself to signing the Bill if homosexuals can be proven to be made and not born. I believe that he well understands the actual answer, but a group of so-called scientists have duly presented themselves to establish it. These scientists are led by Members of Parliament with scientific backgrounds from Museveni’s own ruling NRM—National Resistance Movement—party. Their lack of independence is not the only issue. One of them, Dr Kenneth Omona, told the The Observer of Uganda:
“In one study [it is] revealed that actually 50 per cent of the homosexuals revert to heterosexuality if rehabilitated in time. This, in itself, reveals a behavioural aspect”.
That unnamed study seems to be the mainstay of Dr Omona’s views on the issue. If only he listened to his former allies in this area. Exodus International, which used to be the largest international gay cure agency, shut down its operations in 2013 and issued a public apology.
More substantively, the views of those scientists conflict with the opinion of the major medical authorities, including the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the American Psychological Association. The Psychological Society of South Africa wrote an open letter stating as much to President Museveni in 2009. All those bodies confirm that homosexuality is the result of complex environmental and biological factors.
The supposed scientists may be high and dry intellectually and well away from the mainstream of global scientific opinion, but they draw on a rich vein of popular prejudice. If they were truly scientists, they would be ashamed of that. Another member of the commission, Dr Bitekyerezo, reduced the arguments for homosexuality’s biological connections to a belief in a single homosexual gene. Political courage and scientific objectivity seem to be wholly absent.
Another reason that is cited for the Bill is that it will protect the traditional African family unit. Beyond the difficulty of isolating a traditionally heterosexual African family, that claim founders under demographic evidence. The two countries with the highest fertility rates are Niger and Mali. They do not criminalise homosexuality and nor do 40% of the top 10 countries with the highest population growth rates.
A purported aim of the law is to help prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS and specifically to target those who are HIV-positive. However, the belief that criminalisation decreases the spread of AIDS is a dangerous misconception. UNAIDS, Festus Mogae, the former President of Botswana, and the Zambian First Lady, Christine Kaseba-Sata, are among the many who have called for decriminalisation as a means to halt the spread of infection. The Lancet has even found that:
“The odds of HIV infection in black”
men who have sex with men
“relative to general populations were nearly two times higher in African and Caribbean countries that criminalise homosexual activity than for those living in countries where homosexual behaviour is legal.”
Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this extremely important debate. I would have been at the meeting last week, had I not been off with ill health. If the Bill is passed on 24 February, not only will it criminalise sexual acts, but it will mean that if somebody knows that another person is homosexual, they will be expected to report them. Does he agree that that will affect people who need treatment, because they might think that the doctor will be obliged to tell the authorities of their homosexual behaviour?
Mr Blunt
I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady. I am extremely grateful for her intervention and support. She makes her point extremely well. The consequences of many aspects of the Bill will be simply appalling.
The International HIV/AIDS Alliance has naturally raised fears that the clauses that obstruct promotion will hamper HIV/AIDS charities in working with the LGBT community. HIV/AIDS treatment is dependent on equitable and non-discriminatory access to health care. The grounds on which the Bill is being justified are therefore not only false, but criminally dangerous.
Similarly, the Bill focuses on the protection of minors, thereby conflating homosexuality and child abuse. There is no denying that Uganda has a problem with child abuse. The Ugandan police force reported that it was the second most reported crime in 2011, the vast majority of it being between adult males and young girls. Clearly, what Uganda needs is not further criminalisation of homosexuality, but stronger legal action on child abuse. The confusion of those two separate issues is not only dangerous for the LGBT population; failing to deal with the real problem puts the children of Uganda at risk.
Sexual Minorities Uganda has suggested a range of amendments to the Bill that would better serve the Ugandan people in the effort to prevent child abuse and the spread of HIV. The first is to make the laws on sexual offences gender neutral. The second is to ensure that there is a system of mandated reporting of child abuse. The third is to commit the Government to addressing the risk factors associated with child sexual exploitation. The fourth is to prevent discriminatory access to health care, in line with Uganda’s own HIV and AIDS Prevention and Control Bill of 2010.
If President Museveni implements the suggested amendments, or others of similar effect, he will live up to the constitution of Uganda, the Commonwealth Charter and the African Charter on Human and People’s Rights. They all enshrine the right to freedom from discrimination. He will have bravely stood up for what is scientifically sound and socially decent.
Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. Does he agree that if the President chooses not to follow the path of protecting the civil rights of the community, our Government should—as we have done with other countries who have persecuted people—start to impose sanctions and travel bans on Ugandan politicians?
Mr Blunt
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, and I will come to that in a moment.
If President Museveni does what he is being asked to do by amending the Bill in the way that I and—more importantly—Sexual Minorities Uganda, have outlined, he will be vindicated by history. If he fails, however, as my hon. Friend says, we must respond. The responsibility for the original criminalisation of homosexuality in Uganda rests at our feet, and if that were not enough, our own international human rights commitments oblige us to condemn this Bill.
We should examine a range of responsive measures including travel bans for the main supporters of this legislation, not least for its leading cheerleader David Bahati. We should redirect the few Government aid programmes where we work explicitly with the Ugandan Government to suitable civil society organisations. We should conduct a proper audit of other programmes where we, directly or indirectly, deliver support through the EU or the UN to ensure that they are not simply pork-barrel expenditure directed by Ugandan politicians.
Outrage and dissatisfaction about this Bill will not be restricted to the LGBT community, much as we will be the most vocal in raising it. It is for the Government of all citizens of the United Kingdom to uphold the dignity of the individual and freedom from discrimination around the world. We therefore look to our Government to act and protect those values, and to take up the United Kingdom’s special historical responsibility as the original author of this intolerance.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt) on securing this important debate, on raising awareness of this subject in his early-day motion tabled on 5 February, and on the articulate, detailed and measured way in which he spoke about this issue. Members across the House share a common commitment to protecting minority rights, not only in Uganda but around the world, and they will, I am sure, be troubled by the situation outlined by my hon. Friend.
Human rights are a significant priority for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and the UK Government remain firmly committed to ensuring that all LGBT people are free to live their lives in a safe, just and inclusive environment. Combating violence and discrimination against the LGBT community forms an integral part of our untiring efforts to protect and promote human rights internationally. We therefore share the concern about the legislation passed by the Ugandan Parliament last year.
The Anti-Homosexuality Bill was first introduced as a private Member’s Bill back in 2009, but we understand that it does not have the support of the Ugandan Government in its current form. It does, however, have widespread public and parliamentary support in Uganda, and on 20 December, as my hon. Friend outlined, the Ugandan Parliament tabled, debated and passed the Bill, although it requires presidential assent to become law.
In a public statement in response to the passing of the Bill, the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Hugh Robertson) expressed concern that the legislation was incompatible with the protection of minority rights, and that it would result in a rise in persecution, violence and discrimination across Uganda. We value the strong and close partnership between the UK and Uganda, and as friends we discuss areas of disagreement frankly. I have personally raised this issue on a number of occasions with my Ugandan counterparts, including President Museveni and, most recently, with the Ugandan Foreign Minister on 28 January. I hope to have an opportunity to raise it again tomorrow when I meet the Ugandan State Minister for Foreign Affairs.
Pamela Nash
Will the discussions on concerns about the Bill extend to the concerns of British companies investing in Uganda?
Mark Simmonds
If the hon. Lady will bear with me, I will come on to that point. What I will say is that we are very aware and conscious of British citizens who work for UK companies that are investing in Africa, and how the Bill might impact on them too.
Only yesterday, I met the executive director of Sexual Minorities Uganda, Frank Mugisha, to hear first hand the challenges that LGBT people in Uganda face, and to understand what steps are being taken to change perceptions of LGBT rights. This follows on from previous meetings I have had with human rights groups and civil society during my visits to Uganda. I can also tell the House that Mr Mugisha was able to meet ministerial colleagues at the Department for International Development and the Department of Energy and Climate Change.
The report by Sexual Minorities Uganda, which my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate cites, highlights the perpetuation of some of the disturbing myths about sexual orientation and gender identity, particularly, but not exclusively, in Africa. The report’s recommendations, as articulated by my hon. Friend, form the basis to take forward efforts to change social attitudes and behaviour towards LGBT people. I agree with the report’s view that the criminalisation of homosexuality will do nothing to address the concerns of child abuse and exploitation. This can only be effectively tackled through non-gender-specific legislation.
I am aware of the role that some sections of the religious community have played in promoting the Bill. I very much welcome the recent letter sent from the Archbishops of Canterbury and York to the President of Uganda, and to all primates of the Anglican community, recalling the commitment to pastoral care and friendship for all, regardless of sexual orientation. I am also aware that the Papal Nuncio to Uganda expressed concern at the passing of the Bill, and that he would be working with Uganda’s Catholic bishops on this matter. He noted that the matter
“does not pass a test of a Christian caring approach to this issue.”
The Government share the concerns expressed by my hon. Friend at the effect the Bill could have on efforts to combat the spread of HIV/Aids. An open letter to President Museveni, from Uganda’s Civil Society Coalition on Human Rights and Constitutional Law, highlighted the risks to public health. My hon. Friend might be interested to know that DFID is providing £16.3 million over four years to support and improve HIV prevention response in Uganda, which will include provision for specifically targeting most at-risk populations.
As with many of our posts across the world, our high commission in Kampala works tirelessly to promote the universal values that are central to British foreign policy: tolerance, respect, equality, fairness and human rights. We believe that the case for tolerance and equality is best made by local voices. Since the Bill was passed by the Ugandan Parliament, we have worked with civil society to raise awareness of the impact the Bill will have on human rights. Our high commissioner in Kampala is supporting these groups to promote inclusivity, diversity and tolerance, working in co-ordination with international partners. We have provided support for training, advocacy and legal cases relating to the protection of LGBT rights. The high commission also supports the Kaleidoscope Trust, which my hon. Friend rightly mentioned, and its specific project in Uganda to promote strategic communications. My officials have also engaged extensively with UK and Ugandan NGOs, including Stonewall, the Kaleidoscope Trust and the Human Dignity Trust, to explain our approach.
I have listened carefully to calls in the debate to consider sanctions against those promoting the Bill, but I cannot give the commitment that my hon. Friend seeks to impose travel restrictions on those promoting this legislation. I do not believe that imposing travel bans on promoters of the Bill would be in the interests of LGBT minorities in Uganda or indeed those rightly working to defend their rights. The purpose of our development programme is to support poverty reduction and economic growth in Uganda.
Our development programme to Uganda goes through a variety of channels, including private sector organisations, NGOs and multilateral agencies. My hon. Friend may not be aware but budget support to the Government of Uganda was indefinitely suspended back in 2013, following allegations of corruption in the Ugandan Government. A tiny proportion of the UK’s development assistance is provided through financial aid to the Government of Uganda—only 1.1% of the total DFID allocation. That financial aid is specifically used to support public financial management, to strengthen the Government’s systems for managing fiduciary risk and for tackling corruption. There are very rigorous mechanisms in place to ensure that British taxpayers’ money is spent properly and for the purposes for which it was intended. I am happy to write to my hon. Friend to provide more details and to put a copy of that letter in the Library so that all hon. Members who are interested can see it and be reassured.
As is the case for all the countries we work in, financial aid to the Government of Uganda is predicated on fundamental commitments and agreed partnership principles, which include a commitment to poverty reduction, respect for human rights, improving public financial management, good governance, and transparency and the strengthening of domestic accountability. Although the focus of this debate has been on Uganda, I am only too aware that there are other countries of concern in Africa and elsewhere. My hon. Friend mentioned Russia in his opening remarks.
Mr Blunt
Before my hon. Friend goes wider than Uganda, may I gently say to him that the sanctions sought in my speech were extremely limited and focused on travel bans as the only active deterrent for people supporting the Bill. He has not told us why he feels these bans would cause the effect he alleges. It has only taken me this afternoon to get more than 100 parliamentarians to agree to support a letter to President Museveni along the lines of my speech. If this matter were pressed, my hon. Friend might be in a significant minority in the House.
Mark Simmonds
I did try to explain why I have come to this conclusion and the negative impact his request would have on those who are LGBT in Uganda and those promoting their rights. Travel bans, if they were to be part of an EU-wide sanctions package, would have to be agreed at European Union level, and are normally done as part of a wider sanctions package. He will also be aware that the Home Secretary has the power to exclude an individual if she considers that his or her presence in the UK is not conducive to the public good. The Home Secretary’s decision will be made specifically on a case-by-case basis.
Mike Freer
I just want to press the issue of travel bans. I accept the Minister’s point, but if he cannot expand on it now I ask him to write to my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt) on the issue of why someone who is perpetrating a hate crime would be subject to a ban, as Dieudonné was last week, but the Ugandan politicians would be able to enter the country and pursue hate crimes freely?
Mark Simmonds
I am not sure I share my hon. Friend’s definition of a hate crime. He will be well aware of the sensitive nature of the issue and, hopefully, has gathered from my remarks the position of the UK Government. We stand up for LGBT individuals in Uganda and for their rights and will continue to do so, but my conclusion is that I do not believe that imposing a travel ban on those promoting the Bill, which is supported by Ugandan parliamentary and public opinion, would achieve the results that he and my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate wish.
I will not stray beyond Uganda, Mr Deputy Speaker, but Her Majesty’s Government’s position is clear: all people, wherever they are in the world, and whatever their sexual orientation, should have the same rights. We are active and will maintain the effort. We will work with a range of non-governmental and LGBT organisations to provide support and increase capacity. I am proud of the Government’s strong record on promoting LGBT rights and human rights at home and across the world. That is something on which we will not compromise.
Free, tolerant, open and inclusive societies are better able to fulfil the aspirations of their people. They are more resilient and more forward looking. A country that is accountable and treats its people with dignity is more likely to foster creativity, ingenuity and economic opportunity, which are all prerequisites for long-term stability and security.
That is why we want a Commonwealth that lives up to its values, in which all citizens are free to live their lives in a safe, just and equal society. LGBT rights remain a controversial issue in the Commonwealth. We are keen to see significant progress, but we recognise and acknowledge that it will take time. The Commonwealth secretary-general’s recent statement calling for the Commonwealth values to be upheld in respect of sexual orientation and gender identity is a welcome step.
The measure of a society is how it treats its minorities. The Government will continue to carry that message forcefully and ceaselessly to Uganda and more than 80 other nations that still criminalise homosexuality. Through my hon. Friend’s articulation and eloquence this evening, and in calling for the debate, he has helped to ensure that that important message is heard.
Question put and agreed to.
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Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. Such is the strength of feeling about rail services in the south-east of England that quite a number of people have contacted me in advance of the debate. I have had assistance from Passenger Focus and from a community magazine in my constituency called Dartford Living, which has passed on the concerns and frustrations of my constituents about train services in the south-east. Good train services are not only desirable but vital to keep the economy improving and ensure that commuters in the south-east can access employment in London and the surrounding commutable areas. I hope that colleagues will forgive me if I concentrate on rail issues that affect Kent and my constituency. Of course, the debate covers the entire south-east and many of the issues that I raise will apply equally to the whole region.
In my experience, people use trains not for the fun of it but because they have to earn money to feed their families, pay their bills and keep the country going. We are talking, therefore, about an essential service that must work well. Good rail services are vital for the economic strength of the nation. I am a commuter and I experience the challenges and difficulties that my constituents face, which gives me some understanding of the frustrations that people experience travelling into and out of London.
It is inevitable that in a debate about rail services in the south-east, I will speak about Southeastern, the company that holds the franchise for the services on which my constituents and I commute. I have some observations and criticisms about the company, and I am frustrated by its lack of innovation. Several train companies—including Chiltern Railways, East Midlands Trains, Greater Anglia and at least six others—provide wi-fi on their trains to enable commuters to use portable internet devices, but Southeastern does not. I hope that the company is considering changing that in the near future.
When we think of commuter routes, we usually think of peak services during rush hour, but off-peak services are just as vital. When Southeastern proposed to reduce the number of off-peak services that stopped at Longfield in my constituency, local commuters rightly objected. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesham (Mr Holloway), who worked hard to persuade Southeastern not to cut off-peak services to Meopham and Longfield stations.
Perhaps the most frequent complaint that I hear from constituents about Southeastern is that they want better communication from the company. Good communication is vital to ensure that commuters are aware of the options open to them when things go wrong on the railway. We all accept that things can go wrong with any form of transport, and some of the problems that my constituents face are the fault not of Southeastern but of Network Rail, but it is incumbent on Southeastern and other rail providers to communicate those problems to their passengers. We have had numerous delays and cancellations as a result of poor weather, but Southeastern’s website has claimed that services are running on time. People have arrived at the station only to find that services were disrupted. That practice needs to stop.
After I secured the debate, I received a letter from Mike Gibson, the public affairs manager of Southeastern. He is a good man, who came down to Longfield to meet my constituents and hear their concerns about the rail service. In his letter, he made the point that several incidents that caused difficulties for commuters, such as a fire in October last year at London Bridge station and problems at New Cross and Hither Green, were completely out of Southeastern’s hands. I do not dispute the fact that problems have been caused to rather than by Southeastern, but that underlines the necessity for it to communicate well with its customers, which all too often it fails to do.
I hope that Southeastern will improve on its lack of smart card technology. The Treasury has provided extra money for such technology, but no smart card system has been forthcoming, despite many requests. Oyster cards work well across London. Has Southeastern asked Transport for London to extend their use into Kent? I doubt it. Even if not, we could have our own system in Kent, preferably one that works with the Oyster card system; we do not need TfL to take over Kent’s train stations in order to have smart card technology. Despite the fact that the money and the technology are available, that has not happened yet.
Each rail company must meet the punctuality targets set out in its franchise, and Southeastern is no exception. However, the company combines its mainline punctuality figures with those for high-speed services, which produces a distorted figure for people who travel only on mainline services. We need complete transparency on punctuality figures, because a perception exists that in the past, trains were sometimes cancelled or stations were missed simply to ensure that those targets were met. I have not been able to establish whether that is the case, but commuters in my constituency generally hold that view. If that is true, it must never happen again.
To be fair to Southeastern, it has worked hard to tackle some of the problems that we have witnessed on our railway systems, such as crime. Its safer stations scheme has been a success, and crime on the railway has dropped. Southeastern staff are often very capable, but they have to deal with flawed communication systems and challenges that are beyond their control. Many other issues frustrate me about services into and out of my constituency, including the lack of a fast service from Dartford, the cost of parking at Ebbsfleet high-speed rail station and the increase in fares on busier routes, and I hope that Southeastern will listen to its customers and act on those issues.
I pay tribute to the Government for their assistance in improving the commuting experience for many of my constituents, and for the £45 million investment made available by the Treasury for smart card technology. I pay tribute to the innovation behind the search for a flexible approach to ticket pricing, which I hope will result in products such as flexible season tickets that can be used by off-peak travellers as well as those who travel at peak times. That is very much to be welcomed and I hope that it will help off-peak commuters in future.
Ensuring that we have good-quality rail services in the south-east will always be a challenge. It is not an easy task for any train operator, yet many improvements are required before commuters in my constituency and around the south-east feel that they have been given value for money. I ask the Minister to consider the concerns that I have raised today when he deals with Southeastern, and when he is looking to award any new franchises.
Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson) on securing such an important debate. I want to look at some of the fundamental issues relating to the financing of rail and commuter services. Governments of any party face major challenges in trying to bring a fair and just approach to rail fare financing in the south-east. As I am sure the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood), will set out, until the Chancellor was forced to act last summer, commuters faced a series of above-inflation fare increases.
It is worth looking at some of the figures. I have looked at the increases in train fares—season ticket prices—highlighted by Passenger Focus on a number of south-eastern routes. Sadly, my constituency is not included, but a number of others are. The increases in fares are compared with the increase in wages of the people living in the relevant areas. For example, in Gillingham in Kent—not too far from the hon. Member for Dartford—in the year from January 2010 to January 2011, the cost of a season ticket rose by 8.3% and wages by 2.1%. The following year, season tickets rose by 6% and wages by just 1.2%. In the next year, season tickets went up by 4.2% and wages by just 0.2%. In the year up to January 2014, season tickets went up by 3.1% while wages went up by just 0.7%.
A similar pattern is repeated across the south-east. In Portsmouth, from January 2010 to January 2011, fares went up by 7.2% and wages by just 2.1%. Fares went up the following year by 6.1%, but wages by just 1.2%. In 2012-13, season tickets went up by 4.2% and wages by 0.2%. In the past year, fares have gone up by 2.7% and wages by just 0.7%. Right across the south-east, year after year, we have had increases in season ticket prices that massively outstrip the real increases in wages earned by our constituents and many others in the region.
The annual season ticket from my constituency in Southampton is now more than £5,200, and commuters have faced many additional costs. I have not checked it on any websites, but I use the station and, as I recall, the parking charge at Southampton airport parkway has gone up from £10 to £14 a day in just the past three years. That is, of course, outside the regulated system; costs are being piled on to commuters wherever we choose to look.
It is easy just to list statistics and say that there is a problem, but we must look at some of the railway financing fundamentals that are driving the increases. We have a good opportunity to do that this morning. I take an unashamedly south and south-eastern view of the problem. The system operates in ways that are particularly unfair for our constituents in the south-east, and we must be prepared to face up to and challenge that.
What are the essential financing issues? We must look at two flows of money. The first is the money paid by the train operating companies—that is, the passengers who travel on their trains—to the Treasury. Some companies, almost all clustered in the south-east, are paying substantial amounts of money out of their fares in payment to the Government. In other parts of the country, it is the other way around: a subsidy goes from the Government to the train operating companies and their passengers. The second flow of money is the grant that train operating companies receive from Network Rail to train companies.
We must look at each flow in turn, and when we do we see an extraordinary situation. As I said, my constituents in Southampton pay £5,200 a year for a season ticket. For every mile they travel—every single mile from Southampton to London and from London back to Southampton—they are paying 8.7p to the Treasury. That is the highest rate in the country, but they are by no means the only set of passengers paying substantial amounts to the Treasury—not towards the cost of their rail service—for every mile that they travel.
These figures are from 2012-13, because this debate came up suddenly and I did not have a chance to see whether Passenger Focus has updated its analysis. The following figures were accurate in December. Passengers on Southern were paying 7.9p per mile to the Treasury; First Capital Connect passengers, 8.2p per mile; c2c passengers, 2.7p per mile; and for Greater Anglia, feeding into London from the other side, passengers were paying 5.5p per mile to the Treasury. Those train operating companies, clustered around the south-eastern commuter services, are between them paying more than £1 billion to the Treasury through such contributions. South West Trains paid £314 million, Southern paid £215 million, First Capital Connect paid £187 million, c2c paid £176 million, and Greater Anglia paid £139 million, all in the last year for which figures were available.
By contrast, in other parts of the country the payments went in the other direction—I will come on to the extent to which such payments are justified or not. Northern Rail received a subsidy from the Treasury of £152 million, Arriva Trains Wales received £140 million, First Trans- Pennine Express received £41 million and CrossCountry received £21 million. The only London commuter services that attracted a significant subsidy were Southeastern, which received £82 million, and Chiltern, which received £21 million.
I am probably the only person who has done so, but I have dubbed these payments a “commuter train tax” that our constituents—including yours, Sir Roger—pay to get to work in London. Of course, people say, “That is not the full picture,” because train operating companies receive a payment from the Government through Network Rail that must also be taken into account. However, if we do that, we discover an interesting pattern. The lowest subsidy per mile through Network Rail is for First Capital Connect, at just 5.3p per mile. Southern gets 7.3p per mile, c2c gets 7.1p, and South West Trains gets 7.6p.
If we look at other parts of the country, the Network Rail grant is worth 29.1p per mile to Northern Rail, 13.9p for East Midlands Trains, and 12.3p for First TransPennine Express. In other words, the same broad pattern is shown: not only are our constituents paying more per mile to the Treasury in one direction, but they are receiving less back per mile through the Network Rail grant. That is a major problem.
I must acknowledge that the architecture of the current system was introduced by the previous Labour Government. We are looking, therefore, not at some fundamental change that has been introduced in the past three years, but at the implications of simply rolling forward an approach that was put in place a number of years ago. I would argue that for my constituents the system is getting completely out of hand and completely unfair.
In the last year for which figures are available, the south-east commuter train companies were collectively paying more than £1 billion to the Treasury—or rather, their passengers were. That has quadrupled under the current Government—it was just £230 million in 2009. One might argue that, as part of a general shift towards putting greater pressure on passengers to pay for the rail services—my party, Labour, did that in government, and it has continued—some move in that direction was fair. However, we must now ask whether putting such a big weight on the pockets of commuters in the south-east is really fair.
There are a number of reasons for saying that we are producing real injustice, as regards the extent of the burden that passengers are expected to bear. We can look at two measures. The first is season ticket price as a percentage of salary. A season ticket on a medium-length journey is about 20% of the income of an operative who commutes to London, according to the Hay Group. For a professional, it is about 12%. That is twice the proportion of income paid by people commuting to Bristol, Cardiff, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Glasgow or Edinburgh. In other words, commuters from our constituencies are paying a much higher proportion of their incomes to get to work than commuters do in comparable cities around the country. There is a similar pattern—not quite as marked—for people making long journeys to London from our constituencies, compared with those in other parts of the country. That is one indication of unfairness.
Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)
Is my right hon. Friend aware of the figures from the Campaign for Better Transport, which show that for a couple with two children in London, rail fares and child care costs can amount to 40% of their income? Does he agree that it is the cumulative impact of such outgoings—fares, child care, rent—that have such a devastating impact on many families in the south-east?
Mr Denham
My hon. Friend is right to raise that point; there is a cumulative impact. Another recent study, published a couple of weeks ago—I forget what it was called—showed that the increase in rail fares in various towns and cities in the south-east has now offset the apparent benefits of living outside London, where there are lower house prices. Fares have risen so much that, despite the disparity between London prices and those in other places, the costs are extremely high.
The other indicator of unfairness in the system is the fact that customer satisfaction with value for money, as measured by Passenger Focus, is lowest on the London commuter services. The hon. Member for Dartford talked about Southeastern, where only 31% of customers believe that they get value for money. On First Capital Connect, it is 32%; on South West Trains, 33%; on Southern, 36%. Perhaps we are not surprised that the more highly subsidised services, like Northern Rail, get a customer satisfaction rating of 54% on value for money, and Arriva Trains Wales 54%.
Westminster Hall debates are meant to raise issues, rather than to say there are simple answers to problems. The architecture of the subsidy and cross-subsidy system has been in place for some time, but it is now getting out of hand. It is perhaps comparable in some ways to measures such as the fuel duty escalator, which was originally introduced with cross-party support. It is sometimes amusingly referred to as Labour’s fuel duty escalator, even though it was introduced by a Conservative Government. Although there was cross-party support when it was introduced, the point came, as has been recognised by all parties, where simply rolling ahead with it became politically and financially untenable for many of our constituents. Those of us who are speaking up for the south-east must say that we cannot simply roll forward the current way of doing things without questioning it.
The Campaign for Better Transport recently published a consultant’s report, which said that even with fares capped, as the Chancellor has just done, by 2018 the Government will be making a profit out of running a rail system. In other words, passenger revenues paid to the Treasury will exceed the money paid out. That means that our constituents—commuters in the south-east whom we represent—will be paying the entire cost of subsidising railways in other parts of the country, and making a profit for the Government to boot. That is not tenable; we have to do something.
There are no easy answers. There is clearly no pot of public money sitting there that can be sloshed into a greater subsidy. I am not familiar with all the railways serving London, but there are lines where the quality of the rolling stock and track in the south-east is significantly better than in other parts of the country. A backlog of investment needs to be addressed in some areas, so it is not a matter of simply saying, “Let us tilt the balance in another direction”. However, looking forward, we have to try to set out a long-term strategy—hopefully one that can be agreed by all parties—for getting some basic fairness and justice back into the system, and for putting a cap on what our constituents are expected to pay, not only for their journeys to work, but for the cost of funding the rail system as a whole.
Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham), who has put some very thoughtful points forward, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson) on securing the debate. I should say at the outset that I have a meeting that I need to chair at 10.30 am, so I hope Members will forgive me if I cannot stay for all of the debate.
Most people think that people who live in London travel by tube or bus to work. That is not strictly the case. In south-east London, we have swathes of the capital where people rely wholly on the rail network to get to work. The tube map barely reaches the boroughs of Lewisham, Bromley, Bexley and Greenwich, so the overland rail services, provided predominantly by Southeastern, and also by Southern in some areas, are essential for people’s daily lives. In Lewisham, 38,000 people travel to work by train—nearly a third of all the people who work. The figures are comparable for the other London boroughs that I have just mentioned.
If anyone had stood at any station in my constituency this morning, they would have seen thousands and thousands of people trying to cram themselves into horrendously overcrowded trains operated by Southeastern. One of the problems for my constituents living in Lewisham is that when the trains arrive at our stations—Blackheath, Grove Park or Lee Green—they are already packed full of people travelling to central London. For that pleasure, my constituents are asked to pay astronomical amounts of money. For a journey that should be about 10 minutes, from Hither Green to London Bridge, a zone 1 to 3 annual season ticket now costs £976. It has gone up by £216 since 2010. That is a 28% increase in four years. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen said, wages have simply not kept up with that increase. Ministers might want to tell themselves that they are being tough on rail fare increases, but it certainly does not feel that way to many people in Lewisham.
To add injury to insult, the service is not getting any better. In fact, many would say it is getting worse. Ms Mulvey, who wrote to me last year, said that her problems with Southeastern are a “daily source of frustration”. She went on:
“This week my train to work has been cancelled twice, and this is not an unusual occurrence. My annual season ticket from Grove Park costs me £1,368 and rises significantly every year, even though the service does not get any better...It is quite embarrassing to be regularly late for work. Luckily my current employer is understanding and flexible, but I would not be confident of always having such an understanding employer.”
Alternatively we could take Mr Jolly, who is a frequent correspondent on matters to do with Southeastern. He says:
“Generally speaking, over the last quarter of 2013 the service offered by Southeastern rail has been mediocre at best, appalling at worst. It has markedly deteriorated recently, not that it was ever up to standards.”
These comments are not one-offs; I suspect that they are echoed by virtually every person who boards a Southeastern train during rush hour in my constituency.
The sentiments expressed in those letters and e-mails to me are borne out by industry surveys. I think that my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen, referred to the national rail passenger survey. When it asked people last autumn about satisfaction levels, 42% of those asked thought that Southeastern services offered poor value for money. If we expect people to pay huge sums to travel, surely they should be able to expect a basic standard of service.
What are the problems and what needs to be done? The first main problem on Southeastern relates to overcrowding. I know that significant work has been done at stations in south-east London to lengthen platforms, so that they can take 12-car trains. As I understand it, at the moment, none of the rush hour trains are 12-car trains; they may be 8-car or 10-car trains. Can the Minister tell me today when my constituents can expect to see 12-car services on all rush-hour trains stopping in my constituency? I am conscious that discussions are taking place between Southeastern and the Department for Transport, but I want to know by which date my constituents can expect to see longer trains on the services they use.
Can the Minister also say what action he is taking to ensure that Network Rail properly manages engineering works and has robust plans in place to deal with episodes of signal failure? In December last year, there was an almost farcical situation whereby no trains were running out of any of the mainline stations that serve south-east London when there was a fire at a signal box at London Bridge. It created absolute chaos on the travel network. Many of my constituents contacted me at that time to ask what the problems are in getting Network Rail to address such one-off incidents speedily. However, we experience such problems time and again when engineering works overrun, meaning that on a Monday morning there are delays on the network. That just adds to the sense of frustration that people feel when they are being asked to pay exorbitant amounts of money for the service.
I echo the point made by the hon. Member for Dartford about the need for better communication in, and better contingency planning for, times of bad weather. I understand that the challenges of providing a rail service, especially when the weather is as it is at the moment, must be huge; it is very difficult to run a rail service at such times. However, when a company’s website is not updated in real time, we can understand why people just feel so frustrated that they are not receiving timely and adequate information about the services that will be available to them. Also, can the Minister say whether he believes there is an adequate compensation regime in place for the occasions on which people cannot access the services that they have paid for?
I will conclude by saying that London is a fantastic city to live and work in, but we have to get to grips with rail services that are failing, and failing badly. With the franchising chaos that the Government have managed to create, it seems that Southeastern will continue to limp on and deliver services for a number of years to come, before a new franchise is let. There is merit in exploring whether Transport for London should become the franchising authority for rail services in London. I know that there is some pushback against that idea from some local authorities in Kent. However, TfL has been the franchising authority for the East London line on the London overground, and there we have seen services of a high quality, with high standards and good reliability. My constituents, who live in London, would like the same standards applied to their services.
I ask the Minister to assure me that in his discussions with the senior management of Southeastern and Network Rail, he will raise the matters that I have brought to his attention; that he will do all he can to ensure that our rush-hour trains in south-east London are lengthened to 12 cars; and that he will do all that he can to ensure that my constituents, who make a huge contribution to the London economy, get the sort of rail services that they deserve.
I will give the last word to my constituent, Mr Jolly, whom I quoted earlier, because he encapsulates the challenge for us politicians in Parliament. He says:
“Ultimately, if Southeastern rail is incapable of running an acceptable service over an extended period—and I am talking about 25% of the year here, but the service is mostly poor or very poor all year round anyway—isn’t it time to set up a commission of enquiry as to why, and try to find lasting solutions beyond the DIY approach that appears to prevail?...At present, and against a background of rising fares across the board, I have the feeling there is a complete lack of accountability and an inability to take action at a political level, which I find disturbing and depressing, to say the least.”
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
Thank you, Sir Roger, for calling me to speak. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson) on securing this topical debate. All the hon. Members here in Westminster Hall this morning have ably described the challenges facing individual commuters and the vital role that rail plays in the wider south-east region. As we have heard, too often commuters face overcrowded trains and disruption, and season tickets have risen by an average of 20% since the election in 2010 while on many routes punctuality figures have stagnated or declined.
My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) emphasised the importance of the train to her constituents. Rail accounts for 45% of journeys into central London, a figure that rises to 79% of journeys if we include the underground and the Docklands Light Railway. Rail also serves the expanding leisure and freight markets, not only from the channel tunnel but from the region’s growing ports, such as Southampton.
The severe weather encountered in recent weeks has exposed the fragility of some of that infrastructure. Much attention nationally has focused on the enormous disruption in the south-west, but passengers are also facing cancellations and delays in the Thames valley, which has seen extensive flooding. The line between Oxted and Woldingham in Surrey is due to close for up to a week, and the line between Eastleigh and Fareham is not expected to reopen until the end of February. Landslips are causing misery for commuters in Hastings, as there have also been closures on the line to Tonbridge. The Minister should say today what assessment Network Rail has made of the stability of trackside banks along this route, and whether more maintenance work should have been done to secure them.
Even when closures are inevitable, clear information and decent alternative rail or bus replacement services are vital, but unfortunately they are often lacking, as both my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East and the hon. Member for Dartford confirmed. To go back to one of the cases I mentioned before, as one passenger told the Rye & Battle Observer:
“As a regular commuter I am used to disruption but this is the worst I’ve ever seen in 27 years of commuting.”
Another passenger said that the operator was
“not talking with the bus company. There are scenes of chaos.”
The operator advised passengers to make use of its “delay repay” scheme, but Sarah Owen, Labour’s prospective parliamentary candidate for Hastings and Rye, has been contacted by passengers who have not received a prompt reply after contacting the company.
Train operators receive substantial compensation from Network Rail if the weather causes disruption, and when commuters are paying more than £4,000 for a season ticket—as my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) said, some commuters pay more than £5,200 for a season ticket—they expect and deserve better when there are problems.
Those problems are not limited to one particular line or operator. During last week’s debate secured by the hon. Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) about the Hertford loop line, which runs from Alexandra Palace to Stevenage, the Minister spoke about the timetable improvements that could be delivered when the new Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern franchises were let, although he did not go into detail on that occasion. However, the Minister should recognise that this Government’s actions have led to concerns on the part of passengers and communities.
For example, Milton Keynes is a rapidly growing town that relies on its strong rail links to London. The hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) is in the Chamber. The collapse of the west coast main line franchise competition, which, of course, has cost the taxpayer at least £55 million, has led to uncertainty about future services. The franchising debacle has put orders on hold, hurting the supply chain and threatening jobs and skills, including at the Railcare maintenance company in Wolverton. Commuters from Milton Keynes Central to London have seen the cost of their season tickets increase by £940 and are now paying 25% more than they did four years ago, well above the average increase of 20% in season ticket prices. They are paying the cost for the Government’s failure to impose a strict cap on rail fare rises, which Labour has called for. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen and my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East rightly recognised, when commuters are already spending a large proportion of their income on transport costs, such increases in fares, far outstripping salary increases, are a real drain on family living standards.
My right hon. Friend highlighted passenger concerns about value for money, which reflects not just the amount that they are paying, but the quality of services that they are able to attract. Two main operators serve the station in Milton Keynes—Virgin west coast and London Midland—and both have been offered franchise extensions until the middle of 2017, as a direct result of the fiasco on the west coast main line. Is the Minister able to offer local commuters reassurance that the Department is planning at least to maintain current service frequencies when it re-lets that franchise, and will train operators be able to vary the current definition of peak time, under which some commuters could be paying even more? The Minister needs to answer such questions about problems directly caused as a result of extensions to timetables.
The Minister should also explain how he will tackle the aspirations of the constituents of the hon. Member for Dartford for wi-fi and smart ticketing and those of my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East, including Mr Jolly, when the re-letting of the south-east franchise is delayed by more than four years.
Questions about service frequencies cut to the heart of one of the most pressing issues facing the railways: the lack of available track capacity. We have debated this issue many times in this Chamber and I do not intend to revisit those arguments in depth now, but it is a fact that passenger numbers have doubled over the past 20 years. Some lines that 50 years ago were deemed incapable of paying their way now form vital commuter arteries. For example, the link between Cambridge and Marks Tey in Suffolk was condemned in the Beeching report, although a short stub was eventually saved. The surviving route, which is sometimes known as the Lovejoy line, after the TV series, now supports bustling services during the morning peak. How many former routes might be similarly used today—reflecting some issues that hon. Members have raised today—to provide a better quality service?
As the capacity constraints on our existing network become increasingly apparent, it is right that we have to look at ways of enhancing the capacity of our existing lines, as well as exploring the opportunity for reopening old lines where there is a compelling case for doing so. This is particularly important in light of the severe disruption caused in the south-west by the storm damage at Dawlish. That is why Labour supported High Speed 1, which has enabled greatly enhanced commuter services from many communities in Kent, including those on the line itself, and those which benefit from Javelin services, which transfer to and from the conventional rail network. These trains have created commuter routes that previously would not have been feasible for many travellers, including the high-speed services from Deal. I pay tribute to the local campaigners, including Labour’s parliamentary candidate Clair Hawkins, who have put real pressure on the operator and the Department for Transport to secure those services, despite timetable extensions putting those at risk.
Labour is also committed to the £6 billion Thameslink programme, which represents a huge investment in new rolling stock and infrastructure improvements that will substantially increase capacity on one of the most intensively used routes in Europe. Unfortunately, the programme was paused after the election and it took an unacceptable two years to reach financial close on the contract for the new rolling stock. Given the limited number of officials working on Thameslink, the Public Accounts Committee has warned that
“we remain sceptical about whether the Department has the capacity to deliver the remainder of the programme by 2018.”
It is vital for rail services in both London and the south-east that Ministers get this project back on track and deliver it on time and within its budget.
Labour also oversaw the devolution of rail services in London to Transport for London, as my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East mentioned. The Campaign for Better Transport has provided compelling evidence of the improvements made since 2007: the new rolling stock secured and stations transformed from the drab, unstaffed stops that characterised the old Silverlink franchise. As a result, passenger numbers and passenger satisfaction is up, bringing in more revenue for the service. I am sure that hon. Members who represent communities along the West Anglian suburban lines to Enfield and Chingford hope for similar improvements when services are devolved to London Overground next year. I understand my hon. Friend’s aspirations in asking for further devolution to be considered.
Labour also passed the legislation for Crossrail and committed funding to make a project that had been discussed since the 1940s into a reality. Crossrail will radically improve rail connections and capacity in London and the south-east, while supporting the wider UK manufacturing industry and the supply chain. The previous Government also took the important step of safeguarding potential future routes to Reading and Gravesend, which could include extending the service to the constituency of the hon. Member for Dartford.
The previous Government took action to address the growing constraints on the rail network in the south-east, and the important work of my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen focused minds on the challenges facing ordinary families in the south. Today, Labour’s candidates are taking the lead when it comes to campaigning for better services in Hastings, in Dover and Deal and in Milton Keynes, and across the region as a whole. Labour is the only party campaigning for a strict cap on rail fares to benefit commuters facing the cost of living crisis, and we are committed to improving rail services for passengers.
My right hon. Friend is right to raise the issue of fairness. We are the only party willing to take a fresh look at our rail industry to secure a better deal for passengers and taxpayers from the billions of pounds that are invested every year.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) on keeping a straight face during that last bit of her speech. I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson) on securing this debate on Southeastern services. As always, I am pleased to engage with him on issues that affect his constituents. Indeed, yesterday, we had a meeting about the introduction of free-flow on the Dartford crossing, which will deliver better reliability there. He is a champion for his constituents. Indeed, one of his constituents sent me a text while he was speaking to me, to ask why he did not mention that the toilets are dirty and often locked on the service from Lewisham. I am sure that that is another issue that he will be keen to campaign on.
It is clear that if we are to continue the strong growth in rail travel over recent years, passengers must be confident that the service that they receive is reliable, quick and comfortable. That is why the Government have invested billions of pounds in railway infrastructure improvements over this Parliament, and we have set out our plans to continue doing so. The Thameslink programme is one of those key investments, and we are committed to funding and delivering it in its entirety. On completion in 2018, the Thameslink programme will virtually double the number of north-south trains running through central London at peak times.
Heidi Alexander
The Minister just said that he believes that all passengers should have services that are reliable, quick and comfortable. He will know, from my contribution, that none of those adjectives applies to services experienced by my constituents. What will he do to improve the quality of services for the people travelling in on Southeastern trains from south-east London?
Mr Goodwill
The hon. Lady is right. The situation has not just developed in the past four years; there has been a backlog in investment in our rail, particularly in rolling stock. Northern Rail has some very old rolling stock. Indeed, a couple of weeks ago, we had a debate in which my hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland) suggested that the rolling stock on his line is older than he is. There is a lot to be done, but that is no reason for not continuing with the investment that we have announced and with the projects that we are continuing to deliver. I often hear the criticism that we are spending far too much in London, when other parts of the country are being neglected.
Mr Denham
I am familiar with that north-south argument that suggests that all the investment is going to the south-east. Does the Minister accept my concern that my constituents, who are paying so much over the odds for their rail journeys, are no keener than constituents in the north of England to subsidise a railway in another part of the south-east? We have a situation in which we are asking a relatively small part of the country to pay the bill for all the railway investment that is taking place, whether in the north or the south.
Mr Goodwill
I suppose that my constituents would counter that by saying that the east coast main line is the line that contributes to the Government’s coffers, whether through a franchise operation or its current nationalised express, as I think someone called it the other day. A lot of investment is going into London and the south-east because that is where we see the most congestion and overcrowding. The £6.5 billion investment in Thameslink will link Kent, Sussex and Surrey, through central London, with Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire and Cambridgeshire. The Thameslink programme will deliver up to 1,140 carriages of high-capacity, next-generation rolling stock, in addition to some 600 new carriages that are being provided as part of the Crossrail project, which is a significant enhancement of the rail network’s capacity. I do not need to mention that Crossrail is the biggest engineering project in Europe. I was down there yesterday morning to see how work is progressing, and it is expected to be delivered on time.
My hon. Friend the Member for Dartford referred specifically to the service provided by Southeastern. As one would expect, the Department closely monitors rail performance, and I will spend a moment providing a little more detail on some of the recent performance trends. The key headline indicator for rail performance is the public performance measure, which measures the percentage of services that arrive between one minute early and five minutes late of their timetabled time.
The most recent period data available, from April 2013 to 1 February 2014, show a total average PPM score for the Southeastern network of 89.8%, which is 2.4 percentage points below the target agreed between the operator and Network Rail. Southeastern’s PPM score positions it in the lower mid-table when compared with all other train operating companies. Compared with similar operators in the region, Southeastern has a higher PPM score than Southern Railway, which is at 86.8%, and a slightly lower PPM score than South West Trains at 90.2%.
Southeastern’s franchise agreement, in keeping with all franchise agreements, includes operator performance benchmarks for delay minutes, cancellations and train capacity. Those benchmarks are a contractual requirement, which, if breached, can result in actions against the operator, such as additional passenger benefits at no cost to the Department or, in the case of extreme poor performance, franchise termination. Southeastern is currently performing within its contractual benchmarks and has been doing so for the duration of its franchise. My officials assure me that swift action will be taken if performance benchmarks are breached.
Lilian Greenwood
Those figures indicate that, for many passengers, one in 10 services will be delayed, and the franchise has been extended by more than four years. How can passengers feel confident that the system is on their side when, effectively, the franchise will continue for a long period without passengers seeing any improvement in performance?
Mr Goodwill
As the hon. Lady knows, not all delays are due to the actions of the franchisee. Network Rail sometimes has some explaining to do, particularly on overrunning engineering works, which can be a problem. I will address that later in my speech.
Heidi Alexander
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way again; he is being very generous. He talks about Southeastern’s contractual obligations, with specific reference to delays and cancellations. Can he tell me what proportion of trains on the Southeastern network have been shorter than they are contractually obliged to be? One of my constituents’ main complaints is that a six-car train turns up when an eight-car train should arrive. How often is that happening?
Mr Goodwill
I confess that I do not have that figure in my head, but I will drop the hon. Lady a line to give it to her. She is right that if a train is shorter than expected, it will result in either more people standing or, in some cases, many people not being able to get on the train and having to wait for the next service. In fact, the person who texted me recently has always made the point that living in Dartford is good because the trains are usually fairly empty when they get there. As people get closer to London and go through places such as Lewisham, the trains get fuller and fuller and it becomes more difficult either to get a seat or, in some cases, to get on the train.
Of the total delay minutes for the Southeastern network, around one third are attributable to Southeastern. That is within Southeastern’s contractual benchmarks and 1.6 percentage points outside its improvement target set with Network Rail. The most significant amount, almost two thirds of all delay minutes, are attributable to Network Rail. Network Rail remains cumulatively 37.9% adrift of its targets, which is clearly influencing the downward PPM trend.
Delays attributable to Network Rail, however, include significant and, to a large extent, unavoidable delays. The St Jude’s day storm, for example, caused widespread disruption, as has the sustained severe weather we have been experiencing since just before Christmas. It is inevitable that some disruption will occur in such extreme weather. On a number of occasions Network Rail has been forced to order the suspension of rail services until a full route inspection has taken place, which has caused major disruption on many routes. I gave evidence to that effect to the Select Committee on Transport before Christmas.
Safety must remain the highest priority, and it is in no small part due to Network Rail’s performance on safety that the UK now has one of the safest, if not the safest, railways in Europe. However, adverse weather should not be allowed to overshadow risk factors that can be controlled. Indeed, it is noteworthy that the High Speed 1 line did not experience any problems due to the recent bad weather. Lines built to that standard, such as the new High Speed 2, should also not encounter such problems.
Gareth Johnson
The Minister mentions the High Speed 1 statistics, which are relevant to the punctuality targets that Southeastern has to meet. Southeastern amalgamates its main line statistics with the High Speed 1 statistics to create the overall figure. To my knowledge, Southeastern is the only company in the country that does that, so it gives a distorted impression of punctuality to the communities that use its services.
Mr Goodwill
I note that point. Commuters use High Speed 1 to access London, so it would probably be unfair to exclude the line from the figures. I merely note that the figures are skewed because of the excellent performance of High Speed 1, which is built to a much higher standard. The angles of embankments, the engineering and the standard of the overhead lines are of a higher standard than the third-rail service used by many other trains, which can be disrupted by bad weather.
Southeastern is keen to influence improvement in Network Rail’s performance, and it recently requested a formal review with the Office of Rail Regulation, given several periods of missed delay minute targets. There are particular concerns about trees on the track, which can be mitigated through good vegetation management. There is also concern about landslips, which are controllable through targeted drainage management. Network Rail has its own views on the reasons for the disappointing drop in its performance, which it primarily puts down to extreme, unprecedented weather. Network Rail does, however, accept that performance must improve significantly, and it is engaged in open dialogue with Southeastern. We have told Southeastern that it must continue to challenge Network Rail to improve its performance on the Southeastern network. I await with interest the outcome of the formal review and expect to see both parties working together on targeted improvement strategies in the coming months.
Although Network Rail’s performance on Southeastern’s network has been unsatisfactory recently, investment has not been neglected. Major programmes of investment completed or started in the past 12 months include a £16 million upgrade of Gravesend station, a £7 million upgrade of Dartford station and a £6 million upgrade of Denmark Hill station.
Lilian Greenwood
The Minister is generous with his time. Returning to the point he made a moment ago, is he satisfied with the work that Network Rail has done to assess the stability and resilience of its railway? Has it been doing enough maintenance work to ensure that the network can cope with the difficult weather conditions that we have seen in recent weeks?
Mr Goodwill
I have already said that a full assessment needs to be done on how the adverse weather might have affected the stability of some tracks and on how vegetation management could contribute to fewer instances where lines are blocked by fallen trees. It is, however, often difficult to predict these weather situations. With the St Jude’s storm, the trees were in leaf, so trees that normally would not have succumbed to the high winds were brought down. I am sure that the hon. Lady would not suggest widespread desecration of the green corridors, which many rail lines offer and have environmental and ecological benefits.
In the near future, a new station at Rochester will be built, with completion in the winter of 2015. Nationwide, Network Rail has invested and will continue to invest billions of pounds in maintaining and improving the rail network. Between 2009 and 2014, it invested more than £37 billion, and more than £38 billion will be invested in the next five years.
Although the operational performance on the Kent route as measured by PPM has been disappointing over recent months, there is some positive news from the autumn 2013 passenger survey results, which were published by Passenger Focus last month. That independent survey of passengers’ views showed that 84% of passengers are satisfied with Southeastern’s service, matching the company’s record performance achieved off the back of the Olympics success in 2012. The result was also better than the national average of 83% and the average for London and south-east operators of 82%. That is an industry-leading result and is very encouraging, particularly given the severe weather experienced during that period. I suspect that some of that result is down to passengers understanding that severe weather causes disruption and not blaming the rail company specifically for that.
In further positive news, Southeastern’s performance on the provision of information about trains and platforms rose significantly to 83%, from last year’s score of 78%. That is a London and south-east sector-leading result. Southeastern’s performance did, however, decline on punctuality, reliability and rolling stock condition. Southeastern remains relatively close to the London and south-east average, and it exceeds the sector average on punctuality. In fairness to Southeastern, it is hardly surprising that customers’ ratings on punctuality and reliability have fallen, given the severe weather experienced and the escalating delay minutes attributable to Network Rail. Even given those relatively positive results, there is no complacency in the Department. My officials have discussed the issues with Southeastern and have received assurances that it is committed to driving improvements in the national passenger survey variables. Indeed, the future franchise will link financial reward to NPS performance.
On the specific points raised in the debate, I was pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford mentioned the safer station scheme, which has been such a success. I hope that we will build on that progress. He also mentioned the cost and availability of parking at stations. We need to build more cycle parking. I have been to a number of cycle parks at stations around the country and know that providing cycle parks facilitates the use of more environmentally benign ways to get to stations, and we are keen to build on that progress.
The right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) discussed how the rise in fares and season tickets affected his constituents. A season ticket from Southampton costs £5,200 and the hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) mentioned that a season ticket from Hither Green costs £976. People planning their commute might look at alternatives, and purchasing and running a car for £5,200 would be a challenge, particularly if the congestion charge was included. A season ticket from Hither Green costs less than paying the congestion charge for a car for a year. We are aware of the real issues that people face in paying for their commute and how it affects their decisions on where to live. People might find that they cannot afford property in central London, but also that they cannot afford the commute from further afield.
The fares that we collect enable us to secure investment in the rail infrastructure, and the fare box must play its part. Passengers on Southeastern trains have experienced large fare rises because of the retail prices index plus 3% fares cap, which was put in place when the franchise was let under the previous Government. The hon. Member for Nottingham South drew attention to those rises, but did not volunteer to take any of the blame for them. Members will be aware that the Chancellor announced that we would lower the cap on regulated fare rises, and that includes most season tickets. On average, those rises will be no more than RPI. That applies not only to Southeastern trains, but to all franchises for which the Government are responsible. It is the first time in 10 years that that has been the case.
Mention was made of other franchises around the country and the level of satisfaction with them, despite large subsidies. In my constituency, the Northern Rail franchise does not receive very high customer satisfaction ratings, and a lot of that is down to the regularity of the services. The first train from Whitby to Middlesbrough, for example, does not arrive at its destination much before 10 o’clock in the morning, and much of the rolling stock is old indeed.
Lilian Greenwood
I am reluctant to ask the question, given that the debate is on rail in the south-east, but the Minister mentioned rolling stock on the Northern Rail franchise. The Pacer trains are extremely old and rather uncomfortable. What plans do the Government have to update the rolling stock on that franchise?
Mr Goodwill
I fear we are digressing, Sir Roger, but my point was that I share the pain, given the level of ridership on those trains. The hon. Member for Lewisham East mentioned the 12-car trains and called for longer trains through her constituency. She will be aware that discussions are ongoing on a new Southeastern franchise, and I will ensure that her views are fed into that discussion, to see what can be done, although it is a busy stretch of railway and there are limits on the amount of rolling stock available. She also mentioned overrunning engineering works, which are a perennial problem that affect a number of lines up and down the country. We are aware of the possession overruns by Network Rail, but one cannot plan for unexpected situations, such as fires at signal boxes, suicides and copper theft, which result in disruption on the railway and Network Rail has little control over them.
The shadow Minister made a number of points and was very good at mentioning many prospective candidates, and I wish them well. It is true that Southeastern has cancelled many more trains than usual, particularly in December 2013. Cancellations for the previous five months were ahead of plan, and Southeastern has admitted that the problems in December could have been managed better. The spike in cancellations was due to staff and drivers not working overtime, as is normal, due to the poor weather. In addition, many drivers could not get to work due to disruption to roads and rail infrastructure. Southeastern said that it has learned lessons from the incident.
On the Thameslink upgrade, the plans are completely on track and it will be a phenomenal success, delivering a step change in capacity through central London from 2018.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford will know, the Department is planning a four-year direct award contract with Southeastern from October 2014, in accordance with the refranchising programme borne out of the Brown and Laidlaw reviews. As he will understand, I cannot go into the specifics, as we are due to enter negotiations with Southeastern in the coming months. I can, however, outline some of the expected service and performance benefits.
The new Kent franchise has been specifically designed with customer satisfaction at its heart. For that reason, an innovative performance regime, which contractually requires operator-funded investments where national passenger survey targets are not met, has been included. In addition, a financial incentive regime will be linked to the standard operator benchmarks of delay minutes, cancellations and train capacity, which are the contractual measures that I mentioned earlier. Attaching financial reward to customer satisfaction and operational performance is an essential element of the new franchise and is designed to drive passenger benefits and, ultimately, continued strong growth in rail travel.
Making performance more transparent is another aim of the new franchise. Southeastern currently reports an average monthly public performance measure, but in the new franchise, it will be required to publish PPM performance data by route, which addresses my hon. Friend’s point, in addition to its overall PPM average. We will discuss with Southeastern what other information can be published about customer experience. I expect that increased transparency will help passengers to make better-informed travel decisions and allow improvement strategies targeted by the operator on the worst-performing routes. Greater transparency will also enable my officials more effectively to challenge the operator’s delivery.
On timetable enhancements, Southeastern has consulted on a number of improvements for the new franchise, including extending Victoria to Dartford services later into the evening and all-day services between Deal and Sandwich and St Pancras. There is, of course, no guarantee that the proposed enhancements will be accepted by Network Rail, but they are under active consideration and demonstrate that Southeastern is responding to customer demand. Southeastern is also in discussions with Transport for London about extending Oyster services to Stratford International, Dartford and Swanley. Again, I cannot guarantee that the proposals will be realised in the current franchise or the direct award period, but they are under real consideration. Indeed, when I last met the Mayor of London and Sir Peter Hendy, they said that they were keen to roll out cashless payments for journeys into London, but I note my hon. Friend’s comment that that need not be facilitated by extending TfL’s empire into Kent.
In conclusion, we are aware of the issues that my hon. Friend has raised about this important commuter area. I assure him that we will maintain pressure on the operator both to exceed performance targets and to work with Network Rail to facilitate a step change in their performance. I am currently satisfied that Southeastern is committed to driving improvements, as evidenced by its efforts to secure an Office of Rail Regulation formal review with its industry partner, Network Rail. I hope that by outlining some of the Department for Transport’s plans for the four-year direct award period, I have shown that the Department is committed to driving real improvements in transparency, performance and customer satisfaction. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing performance on the Southeastern network to the attention of the House.
Sir Roger Gale (in the Chair)
Order. With the leave of the House and as we have the time, I will make an exception—this is exceptional—and invite Mr Johnson briefly to reply to the debate.
Gareth Johnson
Thank you, Sir Roger. This has been a constructive debate that was borne out of the contact that I have had with several constituents. They were critical of the service that they have experienced and are frustrated at the service on their lines when trying to go about their work in London and when travelling further into Kent. The complaints and concerns that have been brought to my attention—as a commuter, I have experienced similar things myself—follow a pattern. A lack of communication, innovation, value for money and reliability are the core concerns of commuters in the south-east. I ask the Minister to take those comments on board when dealing with Southeastern and other rail operators.
Atos
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
I am grateful, Sir Roger, for the opportunity to begin my speech a few minutes early, because I hope to participate in Welsh questions in the main Chamber later. I thank the Minister for his co-operation.
I am not unique in having concerns about the work of Atos. I am sure that there is such concern throughout the country. Last year citizens advice bureaux helped with some 450,000 problems to do with employment and support allowance, and 58,000 of those related to work capacity assessments carried out by Atos. Some 94,000 cases related to appeals. The Department for Work and Pensions is currently retendering for new contracts, and I hope that as part of the process the Minister and the Department are examining some of the failures of past contracts. Above all, I appeal to the Minister—he is a Minister who listens—to ensure that whatever conclusions are reached, and whoever gets the contracts, they will be held to account for poor quality assessments and bad customer service. That is the reason for the debate, and I shall give examples—I hesitate to use the word “anecdotes”; many Members of Parliament have constituency experience of the problems.
I am concerned that Atos may not be asking the right questions, and I encourage DWP to introduce regular independent scrutiny of its customer satisfaction surveys. It has asserted that 85% of clients are satisfied with the assessment process, but I question that figure. Citizens Advice has long-standing concerns about the accuracy of work capacity assessment reports provided to DWP as part of the Department’s decision-making process. Citizens Advice asserts that two thirds of reports have a medium level of inaccuracy, and that 40% have had a serious lack of accuracy, which could lead to the wrong decision being made. Those concerns are not confined to the issue of ESA; they could be replicated with respect to personal independence payment assessments.
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
Does the hon. Gentleman see the stress that multiple processes cause to people who are battling against serious conditions, such as the constituent I recently saw who has severe epilepsy? She waited months for a tribunal on a work capability assessment, and she won; but in the meantime, she lost her disability living allowance. She appealed and while she was waiting had to put in a claim for PIP, and is still waiting for a decision. I know that that is not all because of Atos, and that there is another debate to be had about Capita; but does the hon. Gentleman often see, as I do, people who are coping with worry and stress because of the system, in addition to their illness?
Mr Williams
I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention, which she had notified me she wanted to make. She talked about multiple processes, and she is right; in particular she is right about the delays and the anxiety they cause.
There are reports of some disabled people waiting more than six months for face-to-face assessment; scheduling problems; last-minute cancellations; and difficulty in getting to assessment centres. I represent a large rural constituency in the west of Wales and access to assessment centres is a critical matter. We must factor in the lack of public transport and people’s difficulties in getting to their interviews.
That should all be seen in the context of the fact that many claiming benefit are doing so for the first time, after experiencing a catastrophic, life-changing event such as an accident, the sudden onset of disability or the deterioration of an existing condition. They face an urgent need for support, given the sudden extra costs. Everyone in the Chamber acknowledges that delay is unacceptable, although of course new systems have teething problems. I should emphasise, however, that not one of us, of whatever political persuasion, has a monopoly on empathy with the problems, which are understood by the Government, the Opposition and all parties. Nevertheless, I question the capacity of existing providers to carry out the work. The Minister is in a difficult position, because the tendering process is being embarked upon, but I hope that he can allay my fears.
I sought the debate because of the increasing numbers of constituents who are coming to my surgeries, writing to me and e-mailing me, and are facing the stress and anxiety of going through work capability assessments carried out by Atos for the DWP. That is perhaps inevitable given the increased pace of assessments but, as a result of, some would argue, the inappropriate system and process, many of our constituents are told that they do not qualify and are indeed fit for work. The constituent then appeals, but can be left in a state of limbo while this process takes place—delays take months or even years. One of my constituents had an assessment two years ago, but the case is still not resolved.
In response, local agencies such as Jobcentre Plus, Citizens Advice and the DWP itself have been advising my constituents to contact me to assist with their appeal or the speed of their claim. I would never turn a constituent away on any bit of casework, however big or small, because that is our duty and our function, and I am supported by excellent staff here in London and in Aberystwyth, so we will help in any way. There is something wrong, however, if DWP staff are themselves referring people to their MP. In one case, a DWP member of staff told my constituent to contact me to complain about the service. As such, it is my duty to bring these matters to the Minister’s attention.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
This is such an important issue, not only for the hon. Gentleman, but for every one of us in the Chamber and for many outside. In addition to the examples he has rightly mentioned, I have a constituent who has ulcerated colitis and has been retired medically as a civil servant. Her doctor and her physiotherapist support her. In the appeal, however, she was declared fit for work. There is something seriously wrong with a system that ignores medical opinion and suggests that people can work, when they clearly cannot. Should the Minister take that on board?
Mr Williams
The hon. Gentleman highlights a mismatch between the appeals process and the initial adjudication or assessment. I will come on to that. I am sure the Minister is mindful of it, although the hon. Gentleman is right to highlight it. As I said at the start of the debate, the situation is not unique to my constituency; it is commonplace in every constituency in the country.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
My hon. Friend is making an important case, which should be heard, and we all have examples from our constituencies, as he says. Does he agree that the situation is difficult, given that the contract was a monopoly one—awarded by the previous Government—and is therefore awkward and possibly expensive for this Government to get out of?
Mr Williams
My hon. Friend is right. I am not approaching the subject on a particularly partisan basis, because the problems are experienced in all constituencies, but he is right to talk about the circumstances in which this Government are dealing with the legacy of decisions taken under the previous Government. He is right to highlight that. I have every sympathy with many of the campaigning groups, on behalf of which I will talk in my later remarks, but we need to remember the origins of the decision, which the Labour Government made.
I want to talk specifically about delays. I met Atos representatives yesterday, so I know that they recognise the length of time taken to complete the process. One of my constituents, who I will call Mr P, had his Atos assessment two years ago and was failed. He appealed, and the appeal took eight months to be heard. The appeal judge took only three minutes to uphold the appeal. His backdated benefits were paid, but two months later he received a letter summoning him to another Atos assessment, because the process had taken so long from start to finish that the 12-month period before reassessment was almost up. At the second Atos assessment, my constituent was unable to complete some of the tests without causing himself considerable pain and anguish, so they were stopped halfway through. This went down on his medical report paperwork as a refusal.
The case, now complete, has gone to the ombudsman, and I would like to quote a section from my constituent’s letter to the ombudsman:
“I have paid my NI contributions and taxes all my life believing I would be protected by the welfare system should anything untoward happen to me. For 2 years I was afraid to open my post in case it was another letter stopping money...or another assessment. During this time I have been in pain, had needles...surgeons knives, ligaments removed, bones cut and metal plates inserted into me but I am still made to look like some kind of scrounging criminal by a system that was meant to protect me.”
I condemn certain sections of the press for the way in which they have characterised benefit claimants. A gentleman who is genuinely seeking support from the welfare state, into which he has paid all his life, is seemingly being let down.
In many cases, our constituents want to get on with the process of recovery and do not see benefit claiming as a long-term situation, but the delays make their condition worse. Another constituent who I am dealing with—she, too, will remain anonymous—said:
“I am currently receiving treatment and therapy and my therapist is not keen to discharge me yet. My health is not improving and is in fact being made worse by the anxiety caused from this void of information. I was feeling quite positive at one time that I may be put into the Work Related Activity Group…as this would be a great stepping stone to getting back into work from sickness, but I currently feel so low because instead of being helped forward towards getting back into work, I am stuck in an uninformed place that is not helping me recover at all.”
That indicates to me that the process for some conditions —by no means all of them—is making situations worse and adding anxiety to something that is already causing considerable stress to people.
In developing the debate, I am talking about some of the principles that I believe—I am sure people in all parties believe—should be governing our assessment system. My concern in addition to the delays is that the work capability assessment is not fit for purpose. Indeed, the charity Mind informs me that around 40% of people who are found fit for work appeal against the decision; of those who appeal, almost 40% win their appeal. As we know, capability to work is about not only those suffering with physical disabilities—it might be easier for ATOS assessors to see and report on a tangible factor—but those suffering with an invisible illness. This is true in particular of constituents who are suffering with mental health issues, or conditions relating to autism, which is an especially interesting example.
In my constituency, I was pleased that an excellent charity, Autism Cymru, developed a project to train people in the DWP to have greater understanding of the condition of autism. I used to be a primary school teacher and we had minimal training on this, but one thing that impressed itself on me was one particular feature of autism: asking a direct question gets a negative response. That is the nature of the condition, and it needs to be borne in mind in the assessments. The charities Rethink, Mind, the National Autistic Society and Citizens Advice have all made that point to me. I therefore ask the Minister to reiterate the Department’s concern and to ensure that, whichever providers undertake the work, the assessors are appropriately trained in complex conditions such as autism and mental health, so that the clients may be—and see themselves to be—assessed fairly and comprehensively.
Last autumn, with other Members, I undertook a mock assessment organised by the charity Rethink, to give MPs the experience of taking a work capability assessment. At that meeting was a Rethink campaigner, the retired vicar Dick Acworth, whose son has bipolar disorder and yet was deemed fit for work. People such as Dick’s son with a supportive family are lucky to be able to face the appeals process together, but there must be concern about the number of people who do not appeal, because they cannot face it, or simply do not know how to go about it, and they are very much left to struggle alone.
Jim Shannon
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that when someone has medical evidence from GPs, consultants and physiotherapists—people who know about the medical condition of their patient—it is important for Atos and for the Department itself to take greater cognisance of that medical evidence? It seems that that is not always the case.
Mr Williams
I thank the hon. Gentleman for making, once more, that point. It is critical that all due consideration is given. I do not agree with the characterisation of constituents as simply going down to their doctor’s surgery, presenting a letter to the doctor and saying, “Sign this”, and then that letter being presented as part of a package for an assessment, or indeed a tribunal. Doctors are the experts. They know their patients and the situations in which they operate, and we need to give them all due consideration.
Concerns have also been expressed about people suffering from progressive illnesses such as cystic fibrosis, multiple sclerosis, Parkinson’s disease and rheumatoid arthritis. It has been asked whether the work capability assessment is fit for purpose for them. I am not sure whether the Minister has received it yet, but I recently signed a letter to him from colleagues from across the House—it is on its way—raising that concern. Organisations working on behalf of people with progressive conditions have found that that 45% of people with those conditions who put in a new claim for ESA between 2008 and 2011 were placed in a work-related activity group and deemed able eventually to return to work. The placement of those individuals represents the Department’s recognition that they were unable to work at the time of the assessment, yet some were given a recommendation for a return to work in few months’ time. But that directly contradicts the definition of a progressive condition, which of course can get worse over time. The letter is on its way, and I am sure that the Minister will respond to it even if he does not do so today.
I will move on to the flexibility of descriptors. I understand that Atos and Capita are under contract to the Department—I was going to raise at this point the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) about the origins of those contracts—but Atos does not set the descriptors; they are set by Government. Given the concerns that many organisations in the third sector have about the descriptors, will the Minister tell us—I suspect I know the answer—what dialogue he has had with the third sector and what opportunities the third sector has to raise such concerns?
Richard Graham
On that precise point, does my hon. Friend agree that Citizens Advice is probably the charitable organisation that has the greatest experience of dealing with the most serious and, often, heartbreaking experiences of people who have really struggled with the assessment and appeal process for WCA?
Mr Williams
I agree, and I am sure that the Gloucester citizens advice bureau is as affected as the Ceredigion citizens advice bureaux in Cardigan and in Aberystwyth—although I am sadly not sure how much longer that CAB will remain open. Citizens Advice has that body of expertise, which is hugely important.
I have received an almost endless series of representations. I am mindful of the time, and that I have already spoken for 18 minutes—albeit that I have been generous with interventions—so I will simply make the general point that there are concerns about the extent to which the employees of assessment providers are being wholly sympathetic, about the huge backlog of cases that is leading to delays and, frankly, about the instances there have been of administrative incompetence.
I will give a final case study. One constituent I have been dealing with was assessed recently. He felt that the Atos assessor was completely apathetic to his conditions, and also felt under immense pressure to complete tasks put before him. He self-harmed considerably following the assessment. Several of the tasks he was unable to perform have now been put down as “refusals” on his medical report form. He gets very angry, has suicidal thoughts and is prone to paranoia—I am not being emotive in presenting such cases, as I think that they are replicated more generally. Shortly after the initial assessment, he got in touch with me to start the appeals process. Someone from the DWP phoned him to tell him that his appeal of the Atos decision had been unsuccessful, but we had not even started the appeals process at that point. They then called 10 minutes later to say they had made a mistake and he could appeal.
A simple mistake like that can have huge ramifications for people’s lives. A section of the decision maker’s letter to my constituent, whom I will call Mr Z, says that although it is accepted that Mr Z
“experiences pain and discomfort it should be remembered that activities do not have to be performed without any discomfort or pain.”
It goes on to say that the decision maker had chosen the descriptor that reflected Mr Z’s
“level of functioning for the majority of the time.”
If we look at the Government’s website, there is a contradiction, as that site says:
“The approved healthcare professional will consider all the information and exercise clinical judgement to reach an opinion on the nature and severity of the effects of the disabling condition. They will also take full account of factors such as pain, fatigue, stress and of the possible variability of the condition.”
My constituents—people such as Mr Z, Mr P and the lady I mentioned who is desperate to get back into work—are being let down by the system.
Finally, I reiterate the point mentioned by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). A number of my constituents have failed Atos assessments, but, after a long appeals process, that decision has been overturned by tribunal judges. The judges involved in the appeal are given the same descriptors as the Atos assessor, the same reports and the same medical information from the person’s GP, so why is it that judges who are upholding appeals and the Atos assessors are reaching such wildly different conclusions? For example, a constituent of mine had her Atos medical last March. She was given zero points, but her appeal was upheld and full points were awarded.
To me, that sounds like a system that is making those in our society who are vulnerable and unwell, sadly, more vulnerable and unwell. I look to the Minister for reassurance. I know that his role is in a tentative phase at the moment, but I hope that I have established some of the principles that some of us expect to see in our system of assessment.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mike Penning)
It is the first time I have served under your chairmanship since you were knighted, Sir Roger. I congratulate you on receiving your knighthood from Her Majesty, and look forward to serving under your chairmanship in the future. I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) on securing this debate on an issue on which I receive correspondence as a constituency MP; indeed, in the four months that I have had this job, I have met colleagues from across the House about this issue.
On that note, I will explain a little about the role of the Minister of State with responsibility for disabled people. It is a completely new role. For the first time in the 40 years that we have had a Minister for this area, a Minister of State is responsible for it. Although I am based in the Department for Work and Pensions, I have a considerable role across Government in bringing Departments together, to break down some of the silos and see how we can go forward for a better future and with better aspirations for people with disabilities and long-term illnesses.
My hon. Friend has concentrated specifically on Atos and the WCA. I spoke to him before the debate, and I will concentrate most of my comments, if I may, on the WCA for ESA, and on Atos, which is in the title of the debate. Many matters he has raised this morning are not points with which anyone from across the House or any Minister could disagree. There is real concern out in the community, in the lobbying groups that represent so many of the individuals who are so worried about the assessment, and across the House. I noticed that before I came to this role, and have seen it since.
I have tried to be as open and pragmatic as possible in the past four months, meeting not only colleagues from across the House but the relevant specialist stakeholder groups that have asked to see me. I have been frank—I am often too frank—in saying that if those stakeholder groups want to help and to work with us to make the situation better, I have an open-door policy. If they want to throw abuse—and frankly some of my colleagues have faced abuse that has been absolutely appalling and reprehensible—I will not meet those groups, because that will not help the people whom those groups say they are trying to help. But I have had a completely open door; for instance, this afternoon I will again meet representatives from Macmillan to discuss its particular area of expertise. Although I agree that Citizens Advice has done and continues to do fantastic work, it is not the only organisation that is doing such work in representing the people affected. I pay tribute to colleagues across the House—who, believe me, write to me on a regular basis—for doing exactly what they should be doing in representing their constituents.
I am not a party political animal in ministerial terms, and colleagues in Departments that I have worked in previously know that, but I must be honest and ask whether we inherited the work capability assessment. Was it introduced by the previous Administration? Yes, it was. Do I agree with it? Yes, I do, but I do not agree with the way in which the contract was formulated with Atos as one single provider. That was a flawed decision. Sadly, under ministerial rules, I am not allowed to see the evidence that was put before Ministers in the previous Administration. Due diligence is not possible, as it would be if a company were taken over. That is rather strange. Although I have been in three Departments, I am not allowed to see that evidence, but I cannot understand why that decision was made. There was a move from a predominantly paper-based assessment, in which people were often written off. When I had my accident in the fire service, my certificate stated “until further notice”. I was written off, but I have been lucky and have come back to reasonable health and stability from my injuries. However, many people do not recover and there are many areas that we need to work on.
If people want to work, we want to give them all the assistance we can. If people could work but perhaps do not have the confidence, ability, skills or help to get back into the work place, the scheme will help them. Do I accept that mistakes have been made? Yes, I do, and it would be foolish to deny that. That is why, when the coalition Government came to power, Professor Harrington was asked to carry out a review. We accepted all his recommendations. The new review by Litchfield has just been produced, and I can tell the Chamber that we can accept almost everything that is recommended. We have not yet made a formal decision, but it contains many sensible suggestions that need to be in place.
I have attended some tribunals, which are public and not secret courts. I have sat there quietly and listened to what goes on. Do I agree with Citizens Advice and others that many cases should never have gone to a tribunal? Yes, I do. I am taking action to ensure that all the cases that are waiting to go to a tribunal are reviewed, and if senior case workers have got them wrong, we will prevent them from going forward. However, we tend to hear one side of the argument—when mistakes are made—but millions of people have gone through assessments and are back in the workplace. Under the previous Administration’s regime, people really struggled to get back into work. We want to help people to get back into the workplace and to be as self-sufficient as possible.
There are areas that I still have grave concerns about, and we are working on those. My hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion alluded to mental health issues, and I often talk about hidden disabilities. One of the great things that came out of the Paralympics was that the public’s understanding of people with disabilities across the spectrum was vastly improved, and we need to build on that legacy. However, the parameters of mental health disabilities, learning disabilities and hidden disabilities are difficult.
My constituency has problems with misuse of blue parking badges for disabled people. Only the other day, a young man and his father got out of a car and walked off down the road as though they were fit and able-bodied. I know that family, and I know how poorly the young man is, but I heard the abuse from a member of the public who thought he was abusing the parking scheme. That abuse from the member of the public was wrong, but frustration arises from abuse of the system, and we must work with the Department for Transport on that. At the same time, we must address ignorance and lack of understanding among the public
Jim Shannon
I understand exactly the point the Minister is making. It is good to get people back to work, and many people want to go back to work, but as hon. Members in the Chamber have said, some people cannot work. The Minister indicated that he accepts that some change is needed. In the criteria for Atos, will more emphasis be given to the medical evidence?
Mike Penning
My hon. Friend—he has been a good friend, especially during my time as a Northern Ireland Minister—has read my mind, as usual. That is exactly what I am coming to. We are working closely on the descriptors to ensure that what we ask is exactly relevant to the conditions reported. Atos does not make decisions on diagnoses; evidence for those diagnoses will already exist. We are trying to ensure that the right decision is made based on the evidence provided, and descriptors are important in that.
Turning to why so many decisions are overturned by judges at tribunals, I have admitted that that is sometimes because we got them wrong. However, sometimes, on the day of the tribunal, new evidence, which we have never seen, is put before the judges. Within the rules, that is technically unacceptable, but the judges are allowed to use their discretion in allowing that to happen. I saw that the other day, and if we had seen the evidence that was put before the judge at that tribunal, the case would never have gone to the tribunal.
Mr Williams
I am grateful to the Minister for his last point. Charities have contacted me about progressive diseases and illnesses, and I know that he is working with them. With regard to his discussions about the descriptors, how satisfied is he that concerns about slowly progressive diseases and illnesses will be factored into any new descriptors?
Mike Penning
That is exactly what we are working on with the stakeholder bodies. I have asked them to sit down and work with us to address that. I completely agree that the descriptors must be fit for purpose. The matter is enormously complicated because of the sheer amount of different diagnoses across the medical spectrum.
I turn to the negotiations with Atos. I must be careful, because they involve contractual and legal issues. We have announced that we want more capacity. Otherwise, the backlog of people waiting for their assessment will increase, and the time they wait is increasing. We have said publicly that we want more capacity in the system. The balance is between quality of decision and throughput. One reason why so many cases go to a tribunal is that we based the system on throughput and we got too many wrong. I say “we” because I am the Minster responsible and the buck stops with me. Too many cases ended up in the appeal process and went to a tribunal. We have now improved the quality and ensured that our people spend time with the applicants, but that has caused a backlog. We are addressing that capacity issue.
Mr Williams
I welcome what the Minister says about the backlog, which is causing the huge delays and problems that I alluded to. May I plead for areas such as the one I represent—rural, sparsely populated west Wales—and raise the problem of people needing physical access to the assessments we are talking about? The position in south Wales and the cities of England, Scotland and Wales is very different from that in rural Ceredigion.
Mike Penning
I have a list of things I wanted to bring up, and if I have missed anything that hon. Members have raised, I will write to them after the debate.
During a meeting only the other day, my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) raised the issue of access. There are two sorts of access issues: distance, and the suitability of the building for people with disabilities. I am the Minister with responsibility across Government for disability, and it seems ludicrous that I receive complaints about buildings that Atos and other companies use on my behalf and are not suitable. We are working on that. The problem is not just distance, but the sort of buildings being used.
When someone has been told that they are fit for work and then appeals, they can apply for jobseeker’s allowance while they are waiting for their appeal to be heard. If their GP believes that they are unfit for work, they will provide a sickness certificate. Everyone accepts, as did the previous Administration, that there should be an independent review of people’s capability because of the relationship between GPs and their patients. That relationship is very personal, as I found with my GP all those years ago after my accident. He would say, “Well Mike, you can’t carry on being a fireman,” instead of saying, “What can you do?”
Currency in Scotland after 2014
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mrs Riordan, for a very important debate. Over the past couple of weeks, we have seen a watershed in the referendum debate in Scotland. The Governor of the Bank of England’s non-partisan and technical intervention on the currency has been critical in debunking the false assertions that the Scottish National party has been peddling about keeping and using the pound. I will come back to those revelations later and to some of the latest news on that issue.
We can sum up the Governor’s intervention by reflecting on a quote from renowned economist Keynes:
“He who controls the currency controls the country”.
And which eminent economist said that a country without its own currency is a country not only without a steering wheel, but also without brakes? No, it was not Keynes, Adam Smith, or even Marx, but the lesser-known SNP Education Secretary, Mike Russell. There is little doubt that the Governor was saying exactly that when he stated:
“It is no coincidence that effective currency unions tend to have centralised fiscal authorities whose spending is a sizeable share of GDP.”
He went on to say:
“In short, a durable, successful currency union requires some ceding of national sovereignty.”
The central message of the Governor’s speech, of course, was that currency union requires fiscal, economic and political union to avoid financial crisis.
Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. As he will know, the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs, of which I am a member, has conducted an inquiry into the consequences of Scottish separatism. Last week, we were taking evidence from a number of eminent academics. One in particular, Professor MacDonald of the university of Glasgow, who is an expert in economics, said, in the context of price shocks regarding Scottish oil production:
“If you had a separate currency, your exchange rate would take up the adjustment, but, of course, if you are part of a monetary union, you won’t have that…That, for me, is one of the key deciding issues as to why, whatever we want to call it, a currency union or a monetary union would not work.”
Does my hon. Friend agree with that assessment?
Ian Murray
I do, and I think that is the assessment that many economists, academics and politicians have been making over the past few weeks. The Governor of the Bank of England made the very same assessment, and the Scottish Affairs Committee deserves great credit for the amount of work they are putting in on the issue.
Let me go back to the central message of the Governor’s speech. He said that currency union requires fiscal, economic and political union to avoid financial crisis. It is precisely that fiscal, economic and political union that the SNP seeks to dismantle with its obsession with independence. When the First Minister met the Governor of the Bank of England a few weeks ago, there was one person in that room who would control Scotland’s fiscal, monetary and spending policies in a currency union after independence, and it was not the First Minister.
A key test that the Governor set for any currency union is that a centralised fiscal authority would need to control about 25% of that fiscal union’s GDP. That is about 50% of the spending in Scotland. The SNP immediately responded by saying that they would have 100% control over taxes and spending in an independent Scotland, so by default, it is the SNP that has ruled out a currency union by completely ignoring the central warning of the Governor’s full analysis.
We do not have to look too far back into history to see that the Governor was correct. The euro created sovereign debt crises, financial fragmentation and large divergences in economic performance. That clearly illustrates the risks and challenges of creating and maintaining a formal currency union across different states with differing economies.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
People in my constituency have said that they should be entitled to a say on the terms on which an independent Scotland might continue to use the pound, for the very reason that they fear that, if the conditions are not sufficiently strict, they could end up with a Greek euro situation, with workers in one country paying to prop up the financial circumstances in another. Does my hon. Friend agree that people in Selly Oak, and indeed, in England, have a point on that?
Ian Murray
My hon. Friend has hit the nail on the head. A currency union is a question not only for Scotland, but for the rest of the United Kingdom, because the stabilisers that require a currency union would be stabilisers that England or the rest of the United Kingdom would have to use, as well as Scotland. It is a question for the rest of the United Kingdom, and that is a very valuable intervention from my hon. Friend, who is from an English constituency. [Interruption.] I can hear SNP Members chuntering, “Scaremongering”. Well, I hope that they go back and tell their constituents that the SNP disregards what they are saying as scaremongering rather than as raising legitimate issues about the currency and jobs.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Ian Murray
I will make some progress, then I will give way. I was talking about the euro. Let us reflect on what is happening now with the euro area: it is seeking very significant steps to expand the sharing of risks and pooling of resources to create a more homogenous currency union to make it work properly—exactly what the UK in its current state now provides for the pound sterling.
I know that the First Minister said that we should ignore experts, but John Cridland, the director general of the CBI, emphasised last week:
“As the Governor highlighted, successful currency unions need strong fiscal agreements and a banking union, with common supervisory standards and resolution mechanisms. The negative effects”—
this point is critical—
“of not having these structures in place have been starkly illustrated by the Eurozone crisis.”
There is a very positive case for staying with the United Kingdom as part of this currency debate and I would like to run through three points that are particularly relevant to the currency and the economy.
First, Scotland benefits from being part of the UK economy, which is the third largest economy in Europe and the sixth largest in the world. Being part of the larger, more diverse UK economy brings strength, stability and security, not only to Scotland’s finances, but to those of the United Kingdom.
Secondly, being part of the UK offers us protection from financial shocks. During the financial crisis, banks based in Scotland took advantage of the protection offered to UK banks. Since 2007, the UK has committed £1.2 trillion to bailing out the banks. At its peak, the Edinburgh-based Royal Bank of Scotland received £254 billion in support from the UK Government. That pooling and sharing is critical.
Thirdly, the rest of the UK is Scotland’s biggest trading partner. Scottish businesses buy and sell more products and services from the rest of the UK than every other country in the world combined. In 2010, 70% of Scotland’s exported goods and services went to England, Wales and Northern Ireland, accounting for a massive 35% of Scottish GDP. Likewise, 70% of Scotland’s imports are estimated to come from the rest of the United Kingdom.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
Turning that argument on its head, based on the very ill-thought-out and ill-judged comments of the Chancellor of the Exchequer overnight, what assessment has been made by the no campaign, the Treasury and the Labour party of the impact on Welsh jobs should Scotland not be allowed to use sterling as currency? [Interruption.]
Ian Murray
I did not quite catch the end of what the hon. Gentleman said about Welsh jobs—[Interruption.] The impact on Welsh jobs would be the impact described by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe). Losing Scotland from a single currency in the United Kingdom is very dangerous indeed—[Interruption.]
Ian Murray
Let me make some progress, then I will give way. The attitude you have just seen from the nationalists in the Chamber, Mrs Riordan, sums up exactly the argument we are having. When challenged on legitimate questions about legitimate issues to do with people’s jobs and the economy of this country, all they can do is shout, “Scaremongering”, and shout down the people who are asking those legitimate questions.
This is not just a technical or political issue; it is also a significant issue for the Scottish public. I say to the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) that I am sure the attitudes of the Welsh are exactly the same. The recent Scottish social attitudes survey said that 79% want to keep the pound with only 11% wanting their own currency—no doubt the Greens and the chair of the yes campaign are included in that 11%—and 7% want Alex Salmond’s previous obsession, which was the euro.
The First Minister has gone from saying that the pound is,
“a millstone round Scotland’s neck”
to making it the currency of choice for the SNP, but not all the yes camp believe that that is right. The SNP’s own fiscal commission was not even in favour of an informal monetary or currency union.
Guy Opperman
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. On the specific issue of jobs—I am speaking as an MP whose area has a border that divides Scotland and England—my local businesses, the North East chamber of commerce and the local authorities have all indicated that there would be a negative impact on jobs, growth and the development of our respective economies in Scotland and England were the referendum to go ahead. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that point, as always, is totally ignored by the Scottish nationalists?
Ian Murray
I am grateful for that intervention. That point is ignored because it is convenient for the nationalists to ignore it. They do not care about the rest of the United Kingdom. They do not care about businesses and employment across the rest of the United Kingdom. [Interruption.] If they did, they would put their efforts into ensuring that that worked for businesses and for employment across the United Kingdom, rather than being obsessed with the constitution.
I will try to make significant progress. There is a banking museum in the old HBOS headquarters on the mound in Edinburgh. It says that people think of money today as banknotes and coins, but that the currency used to be things such as tea, shells and even feathers. That has been used in the past. We may need to go back to that, because people need to know what the money will be in their pockets. We cannot run a modern economy on empty ginger bottles. Incidentally, people can press their own coins at the museum. There is a little press that kids can use to press their own coins. Perhaps that will become the Scottish Government’s plan B when they have to decide to print their own coins.
This is too important an issue for the SNP and the yes campaign not to be honest with the Scottish people and businesses about the way forward. The overwhelming weight of opinion is now against a currency union. It is little wonder, as any agreement would mean that our interest rates would be set by a foreign bank and include strict instructions on how much Scotland could tax and spend. Scotland would have no control at all over monetary policy. It would also mean the loss of our UK central bank, which acts as the lender of last resort. The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills raised the lender of last resort issue last week in relation to the large Scottish financial institutions perhaps being forced to move south to be by the central bank, for the reasons that I highlighted earlier, from the crisis in 2008.
Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab)
Would keeping the pound not make Scotland a neo-colonised state?
Ian Murray
My hon. Friend makes that point rather well. Let me go on to talk about something that has been mentioned already. Scotland’s relationship with the rest of the United Kingdom, in terms of having a currency union in the way that the SNP envisages, would be exactly the same relationship as the Greek Government currently have with Germany, but it is not just an issue for Scotland.
Ian Murray
Let me make a little progress. I know that other hon. Members want to speak, but I will allow hon. Members to intervene.
It is not just an issue for Scotland. The rest of the UK—this is an important point, which other hon. Members have made in interventions—would have to agree. It appears from speculation in the press today—perhaps the Treasury Minister can indicate whether it is speculation—that there will not be an agreement on currency union, as it is undeliverable. If an agreement is not possible or is ruled out by the Treasury, what will be the Scottish Government’s plan B? [Interruption.] The nationalists are chuntering away about what they would do. I am happy to take an intervention if they want to tell the people of Scotland now what the Scottish nationalists’ plan B is for the currency should Scotland vote yes for independence. [Interruption.]
Mr MacNeil
I am very glad that the hon. Gentleman has given way; he promised to give way. Has he informed the people of England of what his policy would mean for them if he managed to go hand in hand with Osborne and keep Scotland out of sterling? What would it mean for the balance of payments? What would it mean for the value of sterling? What would be the price of holidays for English people going abroad without Scotland’s contribution to sterling? The hon. Gentleman knows full well that Labour keeping Scotland out of sterling would make things far more expensive for English people.
Ian Murray
I apologise to everyone in the debate. I allowed the hon. Member for the Western Isles to intervene to tell us what the SNP’s plan B is, and he chuntered on about something to do with holidays that I could barely hear because his colleagues were chuntering over him. I have no idea what he said. [Interruption.]
Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair)
Order. The hon. Gentleman must be heard. The other hon. Members will get the same respect under my chairmanship.
Ian Murray
Thank you, Mrs Riordan. I will give the nationalists one more opportunity if they want to intervene to tell us what the SNP’s plan B would be should people vote yes for an independent Scotland and there is no currency union. No?
Mr MacNeil
The hon. Gentleman did not hear because of the chuntering beside him, but the point is that we know full well what we are doing—we are keeping sterling. But if his policy was—[Laughter.] If his policy was put in place, what would happen to people in England as the balance of payments worsened and sterling weakened? Imports would be more expensive. Holidays would be more expensive. Labour’s policy is irresponsible to the people of England as it is to the people of Wales.
Ian Murray
Mrs Riordan, I apologise again for wasting another intervention through the nationalists not telling us what plan B would be. Let me tell them what the currency will be in England and Wales. It will be the pound sterling. That is what they will keep.
Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)
The former deputy leader of the SNP, Jim Sillars, said that the SNP’s currency union plans were “stupidity on stilts”. After listening to the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), does my hon. Friend think that Mr Sillars might have been speaking about him?
Ian Murray
My hon. Friend is absolutely right: it is stupidity on stilts. Economist after economist, academic after academic, politician after politician and business after business has said that the SNP’s currency union plans are completely barking on stilts.
Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)
Is not the former deputy leader of the SNP on to something? The fundamental fact is that if the Scottish National party wishes to keep the economic and social union, there also has to be a political union; otherwise democracy is lost. Does my hon. Friend agree?
Ian Murray
I absolutely agree, because what the SNP wishes to do is cherry-pick what it wishes to have in an independent Scotland. It cannot have the economic and social union without having that political union. Let us just reflect on a hypothetical situation in which Scotland either is an independent country or has its own currency. After the eurozone crisis of 2008 and beyond, it would probably be in negotiations with the UK Treasury to get more of a fiscal pact and more of a monetary union to ensure that those stabilisers were in place to ensure that it did not happen again.
Let me go back to where I was—challenging the SNP on whether it had a plan B. It is quite clear that it has barely a plan A, and it will not tell us what its plan B is. The Scottish people deserve to know before they go to the polls. It is clear that leaving the UK means losing the security of the pound. The yes camp cannot even tell us what money we would have in our pockets. How can they ask us to vote to leave the United Kingdom?
The pound is one of the most trusted and secure currencies in the world. The eurozone crisis has shown us how important it is to have a strong and stable currency, and this is not just about what money is in your pocket; it is about what it will buy you. Losing the pound means more expensive mortgages, more expensive credit card bills and more expensive car loans. Anyone who banks, anyone who saves and anyone who borrows will be hit with higher bills.
Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on the debate. He will be aware that the Deputy First Minister has indicated in the broadcast media today that the Scottish Government are now minded to default on their debt in the event of a yes vote. Can my hon. Friend give any indication of what he thinks the interest rates would be on our residents’ mortgages or on debts and savings if such a scenario occurred?
Ian Murray
That is a very timely intervention, because there is no doubt about this. Everyone in this room, everyone watching this debate and everyone in Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom will know what happens when people do not pay their bills. When people default on their bills, they end up in a situation whereby the bills get higher. Interest and credit get higher and more difficult to get. Indeed, they are punished for ever more with an incredibly bad credit rating. In the context of an economy and a country, that is devastating for jobs and public services at the very least.
Mel Stride
The hon. Gentleman rightly highlights the problem of any two countries that go into a currency union and therefore have to get their budgets, spend and tax agreed between them, which in itself will be deeply problematic with an independent Scotland under SNP leadership certainly, but will he also recognise that the situation is even worse than that? In the event that, in that situation, Scotland overspent, it would in effect be down to London to decide that it was going to have to row back on that expenditure and cut expenditure north of the border.
Ian Murray
I am grateful for that intervention. Again, I can only emphasise what the Governor of the Bank of England said. It was a non-partisan speech; it was a technical speech about currency unions and that was the point that he made: those monetary, fiscal and spending stabilisers have to be in place; otherwise a currency union does not work.
What about business? We sell twice as much to the rest of the UK as we do to the rest of the world combined. Losing the pound would mean that every time a Scottish company sold to or bought from somewhere down south, they would incur the cost of exchanging money. That would result in higher prices for us all, as the supermarket bosses—again, we have been told by the First Minister to ignore them—warned us last week. We should listen to business. In a strong criticism of the SNP White Paper, the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland has warned that there is
“a high degree of uncertainty as to what the currency of an independent Scotland will be.”
ICAS states that no alternatives have been set out in case the negotiations are unsuccessful, and warns:
“The choice of currency will have a very significant impact across the pensions sector, the economy and the country generally, and this will inevitably remain as a major uncertainty for the time being.”
We should listen to that warning from Scotland’s accountants. The SNP must tell us what currency it would use instead. Will it set up an unproven currency or rush to join the euro?
Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate on a matter that has got my constituents, and probably his, worried. Not so long ago, the nats wanted to join the euro; indeed, that was a slogan of theirs. It is very strange—it is a consequence of all that has happened in mainland Europe—they are now trying to hitch up to the pound, which would also be a foreign currency.
Ian Murray
My hon. Friend hits the nail on the head. The SNP has ditched its euro credentials and its wish to join the euro in favour of a currency union with the United Kingdom that it is already in. I believe its slogan was “independence in Europe” but it now seems to be “independence in the UK with the pound.” Will it rush to adopt the euro—indeed, will Scotland actually be in the EU—or will it join the only other two countries in the world that tie their currency informally to another? This is a great quiz question: which countries are those? The answer is Panama and El Salvador, which use the dollar. [Interruption.] I can hear the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) chuntering, “Greece”, and that is exactly the point that I have been making.
The First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Scotland this morning made the unedifying assertion that Scotland will default on its debt if no currency union is forthcoming. That ill-thought-through, toys-out-of-the-pram threat is a recipe for economic crisis and political conflict. It is reckless and irresponsible, to say the least.
Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making an amazing speech. Is not that statement—that throwing of the toys out of the pram—proof that the SNP would be incapable of conducting normal relationships with the rest of the UK post independence?
Ian Murray
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. A currency union requires some kind of political co-ordination to ensure that the stabilisers make the currency work. What better political stability could we have than being the United Kingdom, with a strong Scottish Parliament as part of that overall economic and political framework?
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
I apologise for missing the start of the debate; I have just come from a debate on a statutory instrument that affects my constituency. My hon. Friend is making a powerful contribution. According to the International Monetary Fund, none of the 64 largest economies in the world operates without a central bank. Does he agree that if Scotland were forced into the position, which was denounced by the SNP’s fiscal commission, of using the pound without a central bank, the consequences for business and ordinary people throughout Scotland would be devastating?
Ian Murray
I could not have put it better myself. I look back to 2008, when hundreds of billions of pounds were poured into Scottish banks to keep the economy afloat, and to keep my constituents, many thousands of whom work in such banks in Edinburgh, in jobs. Without such action, the whole financial structure would have collapsed.
Mark Lazarowicz
I see that the Scottish Government’s White Paper on independence asked the question:
“What about bank bail-outs if there is another financial crisis?”
The Scottish Government responded:
“If in the future wider support from governments is required to stabilise the financial system, this would be coordinated through the governance arrangements agreed between the governments of the Sterling Area.”
In other words, they would have to rely on negotiations with the rest of the UK Government. Contrast that with the situation in the recent financial crisis when, as part of the UK, the Scottish banks were able to call on the resources of the UK.
Ian Murray
That is precisely the argument about pooling and sharing, and it is why the UK is such a powerful political, social and economic union. The larger and more stable economy of the UK can deal with such shocks.
Experts such as Professor MacDonald and Professor Armstrong are clear that defaulting on debt would be a reckless move with negative consequences for the people of Scotland for many years to come. That threat shows that the SNP accepts that Scotland cannot keep the pound if it leaves the UK. Defaulting on our debts as a nation has the same impact as if someone defaults on their debts as an individual, and I have already mentioned what happens if someone does not pay their bills. Our credit rating would be terrible, and we would have to pay more for absolutely everything, which would be a disaster for ordinary individuals and families up and down Scotland. Any Scot who borrows money or who has a mortgage, a credit card or catalogue payments will have to pay more. That is not scaremongering, but basic economics.
The SNP has said in its fantasy White Paper that Scotland would have to rely on the rest of the UK to collect our taxes and to pay our pensions and benefits for many years after independence until it sorted out its own systems. The SNP cannot threaten to dump the debt one minute and ask to share everything else the next. That is a recipe for crisis and disaster. How would those UK institutional systems work with a separate currency? Can the Minister tell us whether the systems used by the Department for Work and Pensions and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs are capable of working in a currency other than sterling? I doubt it. The White Paper is underpinned by and predicated on the pound. Perhaps it will turn into an actual white paper when it has been so heavily Tipp-exed that it contains nothing but Tipp-ex.
Scots have an international reputation for being prudent and thrifty. To default on its debts would irreparably damage Scotland. Even to threaten to default on debts has significant consequences for interest rates, borrowing and international reputation, which the National Institute of Economic and Social Research put at a minimum of 1.5%.
Ian Murray
I will not give way again to the hon. Gentleman, because he refused to answer my last question. To summarise, losing the pound would result in a higher cost of living, with higher mortgage repayments, higher credit card and store card bills, and more costly car loans. Scotland would start out as a separate state with no credit rating, or one that had been hugely damaged by threats of default. There would be fewer jobs, because of the cost of changing money every time Scottish firms bought or sold from our biggest customer, which is the rest of the United Kingdom. There would be deeper cuts or higher taxes because the Scottish Government would pay more to borrow money, which would result in more debt and lower public spending. There would be risks to benefits and pensions as payments were converted from sterling to a different currency.
There would be risks to the economy. Without the back-up of the rest of the UK, Scottish banks would have gone under during the financial crisis, and families and businesses across the country would have lost everything. Scotland would have an unproven and weak currency with a poor credit rating and high borrowing costs. The SNP’s proposition may be summed up as this: we should go from a proven and respected single currency backed by a strong lender of last resort as part of the United Kingdom to a promise from Alex Salmond that he is simply not in a position to deliver. That is not good enough for the Scottish people or Scottish business.
I can say this afternoon without doubt, argument or contradiction that the currency of Scotland post 2014 will be the pound, but only if we stay in the United Kingdom. It is now clear that the most positive case that we can make for the Union is the pound in our pockets. We must do all we can, today and for the next seven months, to protect it for future generations.
Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair)
Order. The wind-ups will begin at 3.40 pm, and several hon. Members have indicated that they wish to speak. I would like all those who wish to speak to be able to do so, so I intend to impose an initial time limit of five minutes.
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) on a very impressive speech. This is an issue of finance, but also of the heart. As with all matters of finance and long-term matters of the heart, pragmatism and practicality must hold sway. Listening to SNP Members chuntering—when they are not on their mobile phones—and not listening to the debate, one is struck by the fact that their basic argument is that they want to have their cake, eat it and then still call the cake Scottish, not British. Last autumn, when I was campaigning with the Better Together campaign—a cross-party campaign that is doing a fantastic job—one Scot put the situation to me in this way: “The prospect of an affair is always more glamorous than the work of saving a marriage.” I suggest that that is the situation in which the Scottish people now find themselves.
I strongly support the desire of the Scottish people to be together as part of the United Kingdom.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
On a point of order, Mrs Riordan. Is it entirely fair that, in a debate as important as this one, 95% of the time is given to one side and we are now restricted to five minutes? How could that possibly be fair? Can you look into that so that we get more time to put the other side of the case so that the people who are watching this get the opportunity to hear it?
Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair)
The Member in charge of the debate gets as long as they want for their first speech, and then the time allotted is down to the number of Members who wish to speak. Rather a lot of Members wish to speak in this debate.
Guy Opperman
I speak as a Brit, a mongrel Englishman, a lover of Scotland and an MP whose constituency borders Scotland. Were there to be Scottish independence, I have no doubt that tourism and trade would continue, but it would be naive not to accept that trade on a cross-border basis would unquestionably be affected. That is not some Conservative Member of Parliament speaking; that is the opinion of the chambers of commerce, local authorities and business groups I have spoken to on both sides of the border.
Some of the key questions have been raised by the hon. Member for Edinburgh South, but I have some others. On what basis would Scotland get to keep the pound? Would it be used informally, just as some Latin American countries, Greece and Montenegro use other currencies? Why should the Bank of England take notice of Scotland in setting monetary policy? Why should the Governor travel to Edinburgh and be interrogated by Scottish MPs in such an event? After independence, surely the Governor would owe his appointment entirely to a rest-of-UK appointment system? At that stage, would the First Minister come to London seeking an audience to negotiate? The arguments that have been put forward are, respectfully speaking, a farce.
I also suggest that, when one goes through Mark Carney’s speech and looks at the currency options, it would seem that the SNP proposes to keep the pound as part of a formal sterling currency union agreed with the rest of the UK. However, the SNP seems not to have contemplated the fact that that would involve giving up huge amounts, as Mark Carney made very clear, as well as requiring the agreement of all other parties. The SNP seeks independence but would require and accept greater control by a third party.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the phrase “sterling area” used in the Scottish Government White Paper is wholly misleading? The sterling area that used to exist with the Commonwealth and Ireland was all about pegging exchange rates; the SNP actually wants full currency union, with all the concomitant controls that that would require.
Guy Opperman
I entirely endorse my hon. Friend’s point. I looked at the Scottish Government White Paper, and it states that
“a monetary framework will require a fiscal sustainability agreement between Scotland and the rest of the UK”—
that is, if independence goes ahead—
“which will apply to both governments and cover overall net borrowing and debt. Given Scotland’s healthier financial position”,
after independence, presumably,
“we anticipate that Scotland will be in a strong position to deliver this.”
With respect, that is complete comedy.
Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con)
My hon. Friend is raising some important points. Does he agree that trust in the institutions that used the currency in an independent Scotland would be a necessary part of currency union? That raises significant questions about the regulation imposed in Scotland. Is the SNP proposing that the Financial Conduct Authority continue to be the prime regulator for such institutions? If so, how does it propose that the regulator will have proper oversight so that we can trust such institutions not to fail?
Guy Opperman
The arguments on fiscal regulation might appear dry and unexciting, particularly when addressed in the press, but they are utterly key to the future prosperity not only of the whole existing United Kingdom, but especially of Scotland if it were to become independent. Such aspects of fiscal regulation as my hon. Friend mentioned—how a bank would function; how a currency would be managed; what sort of interest rates would be managed; who is in charge of such matters—are totally unaddressed by the SNP. Frankly, they must be addressed if anyone is to have any faith in the SNP’s fiscal approach to the argument.
Mel Stride
My hon. Friend is making a powerful case. Does he agree that full currency union could have a devastating impact on the financial services sector in Scotland as banks migrate south to get the protection of the Bank of England as the lender of last resort?
Guy Opperman
I have no doubt that that would be the case.
I am mindful of your instructions, Mrs Riordan, so I must finish. If keeping the pound would not be possible as part of a formal sterling currency union; if the SNP no longer wishes to join the euro, which one can see; and if there is no prospect of an independent country with border control—my constituents are somewhat concerned that there might be a rerun of Hadrian’s wall—where are we? We will have a new Scottish currency. The expression that is used is “sterlingisation.” In its briefing on an independent Scottish currency, not part of a fiscal union, the House of Commons Library—I can assure the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) that it certainly is independent—states that such a
“policy is often used by countries which have a poor economic record.”
I could not have put it better myself. It is the currency situation in Greece, Panama, El Salvador and Montenegro; it is not what we should be pursing.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)
It is slightly disappointing that we cannot have a longer, more detailed debate on this issue. There is a great deal to say to answer the points that have been raised.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) on securing this debate, although from what we have heard so far, it is less of a debate on currency and more of a quick canter through some of the no campaign’s scaremongering. I would like to address one or two of the points that he made. He suggested that the Scottish economy would be run on ginger bottles—that is, old lemonade bottles. What a patronising and insulting way to look at a modern, productive economy.
Stewart Hosie
No. I have only five minutes.
The hon. Member for Edinburgh South suggested that so much money had been put into Scottish banks. I draw his attention to chapter 1, paragraph 1 of the report by the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. The cash cost at peak is reported to be £133 billion—that was £47 billion to Royal Bank of Scotland in return for 82% of the stock, around £25 million into Lloyds, and smaller amounts to the Icelandic and other financial institutions. Where taxpayers are still on the hook is the near £50 billion owed to them from Northern Rock and Bradford and Bingley, which may be many things, but they are not Scottish banks. The notion that the argument was ever about Scottish banks bad, English banks good, must be knocked on the head.
The old chestnut about Scotland in a sterling currency zone being like Greece was also raised. Greece’s problem had nothing to do with being in a currency union and everything to do with appalling productivity. As we know, Scottish productivity is nigh on identical to that of the rest of the UK. That would avoid such problems entirely.
Stewart Hosie
No. I do not have time.
The hon. Member for Edinburgh South rightly and understandably prayed in aid Dr Carney’s recent speech, which he said did not pass judgment on the relative merits of the different currency options for Scotland, but instead drew attention to the key issues. However, Dr Carney did point out that any arrangement would be negotiated and that the Bank of England would implement whatever monetary arrangements were put in place. That is to be welcomed, not just by me, but by the 71% of people in the rest of the UK who support the continued use of sterling after Scottish independence. The same proportion—71%—of Labour voters in Scotland also support the continued use of sterling after independence.
The hon. Member for Edinburgh South and the no campaign seem to fail to understand what Scotland brings to the table. Of course we recognise the constraints—I will come on to them—but we bring export revenue receipted in sterling. The impact on the sterling balance of trade would be immediate and significant were Scotland somehow—impossibly—forced not to be able to use sterling. The same applies to trade—the rest of the UK sells £60 billion into Scotland. If we were forced to use a foreign currency and transaction costs were applied, that would imply a catastrophic loss to English businesses: additional costs that the no campaign never mentioned.
Let us put the matter into context. In 2012, the rest of the UK sold into Scotland more than it did into Brazil, South Africa, Turkey, Russia, India, South Korea, China, and Japan combined, yet we hear from the no campaign that they do not want us to use sterling, even though that is impossible, which would imply massive transaction costs and the loss of jobs in the rest of the UK. I am sure that is not something they intend to do.
Stewart Hosie
No, I do not have time. So where would independence while keeping sterling leave us? It would not imply a foreign currency controlling our economy, because the central bank does not control the economy. It works to a single 2% inflation target, which we think is sensible.
Stewart Hosie
No, I do not have time. It would effectively leave us in Scotland in the same place as the rest of the UK, accepting the discipline of an independent Monetary Policy Committee, while leaving Scotland, along with the rest of the UK, in complete control of the rest of its social and economic levers. We would have parity.
Stewart Hosie
I do not have time. I have barely a few seconds left. I do not even have time to comment on the Chancellor’s supposed intervention tomorrow. However, if a Tory toff Chancellor goes to Scotland to bully and to scaremonger, it will be looked on very badly indeed by the Scottish people.
Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. I follow the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) from the Scottish National party, and I hope that, in the words of Bill Clinton, he will feel our pain in Scotland. This is the level of debate that we have to put up with day in, day out in the separation campaign. It is full of bluster, assertion and very little detail.
In the short time available, I want to pose the argument in the language that the ordinary man and woman on the street understand. We face the biggest decision we will ever make on 18 September 2014, and I had high hopes that the debate would deal with all the big issues. A business man—a friend of mine in my constituency—told me about a meeting that he had with the SNP treasurer in charge of finances for the campaigning. He asked the SNP treasurer how he would deal with the big issues such as currency, and he replied that they would make lots of promises, spend money before the campaign and that hopefully that would get them through. I did not believe that statement, but I do now, because I have read the Scottish Government White Paper. It contains no facts and no detail and threatens the future of my country.
We should also realise that the people who support a separate Scotland are largely cultural nationalists who believe that, irrespective of the economic damage that separation would do, Scotland must be a separate nation. I do not have a gripe with people who believe in that particular brand of nationalism, but the rest of the people are Jerry Maguire individuals—if I can use that term—when it comes to the debate, because they want someone to show them the money. They want someone to say they will be better off if Scotland separates and is not part of the UK.
After last week’s debate about the future of the UK, I would put the debate into three different boxes: first, things that we know will not change; secondly, things that we know will change; and thirdly, things that we will have to negotiate on. The SNP is trying to put as many issues as possible out of the negotiation box and into the “will not change” box. That is why we will keep the Queen, although MSP Christine Grahame wants Annie Lennox to be the Head of State in Scotland.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
The unintended consequences that the hon. Gentleman raised were touched upon last week in a speech by the leader of Sinn Fein when he said that the United Kingdom hangs by a string. Is that not a very worrying statement that shows how important the referendum is for everyone in the United Kingdom?
Mr McCann
Absolutely. We have been in this Union for 307 years. It has served us well, and I want to make sure that it continues after 18 September 2014. We have loads of statements about what will not change and all the contradictions: we have the Queen and we have NATO; we want to be a member of NATO, but we do not want nuclear weapons. We had the fiasco over Europe: we will waltz in—presumably a Vienna waltz—and we will keep our rebate, and be delighted when everyone welcomes us in as a member of the European Union.
Ann McKechin
My hon. Friend will be aware that the Scottish Government said that universities in Scotland will be better off under separation, but the EU education commissioner has confirmed today that their proposed policy on tuition fees for students in the rest of the United Kingdom is illegal. Does my hon. Friend believe that yet again they have been proven unsuccessful?
Mr McCann
Absolutely. It is a significant nail in the case for separation. All those things make a mockery of the debate, because people in Scotland want a truly open and honest debate with all the big issues discussed, flaws and all, but we do not get it. It reminds me of the quote from Groucho Marx, who said:
“I don’t want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member.”
Alex Salmond says that he has to set the rules before he decides to join the NATO, European Union or currency clubs. In terms of what happens in the street and what people talk about, we should simply retrace our steps in the currency debate.
Alex Salmond’s first position on the euro made a lot of sense when he presented it, because we would leave the United Kingdom, become a separate state, apply for membership of the EU, and, as part of applying for membership as a new state, we would have to accept the euro as our currency. However, as we know—my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) exposed the argument cruelly—the debate on the euro currency caved in when the crisis came. The arguments have been well set out by my hon. Friend. The SNP then brought us back to the pound as our currency, which, as has been mentioned, Alex Salmond had described as a millstone round Scotland’s neck.
If Scots vote for independence, there will be massive uncertainty, because negotiations will be required on all those issues. At the moment, we have the pound as our currency. The Bank of England is our lender of last resort, which means that when we pool and share risk, interest rates will be the same in Land’s End as in John O’Groats. We know that the SNP proposed that we have the currency of a foreign state and we know that there will be no political and fiscal union, so, in the event of separation, Scotland then becomes—this is really important for the man and woman on the streets of Scotland—a higher risk. As a result, our interest rates will increase, which means that we will have to spend more money on mortgages, loans, and credit cards. The cultural nationalists will accept that, because they will pay any price for separation, but most canny Scots will not.
Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mrs Riordan. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) on securing this important debate. The choice of which currency to use is perhaps the single most important economic decision a country can take. That is why Scotland is asking, as we close in on the independence referendum in September, why the yes campaign does not seem to know what currency it wants. We hear that the SNP wants and favours a currency union with the rest of the UK, keeping the pound. However, the other members of the yes campaign want either the euro or a new currency altogether. This leaves us in Scotland very confused and worried. What currency does the yes campaign want for Scotland?
The people of Scotland want a straight answer about the currency from those who support separation, with a guarantee of which currency we would use if a yes vote should transpire in September. But today all we have on currency from the nationalists is a wish list at best, wrapped up and qualified with ifs, buts and maybes. We now know that keeping the pound in a currency union would require the agreement of the rest of the UK; but what if agreement could not be reached on that? What is plan B? Even if a separate Scotland wanted to continue to use the pound, and agreement was reached with the rest of the UK, it would mean that there was no control over our interest rates and how much Scotland could tax and spend. I do not believe that even the nationalists would accept that as independence.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DsUP)
Is not the bottom line the fact that there is a fundamental contradiction at the heart of the yes campaign—that on one hand the SNP and the yes campaign want national sovereignty to be transferred to Edinburgh, but on the other hand they want to give it away almost immediately in a currency union?
Mr McKenzie
The right hon. Gentleman makes the point clearly and we have been highlighting that throughout the debate on Scotland’s future.
If Scotland carried on using the pound regardless, we would have no control over our economy and we could lose our central bank, which acts as the lender of last resort. The nationalists are now suggesting that Scotland should default if they do not get their way on a currency union; the Deputy First Minister has said that Scotland might not take its share of national debt if it is not agreed. That is wildly irresponsible and would jeopardise an independent Scotland’s creditworthiness. The people of Scotland have every right to worry about the future of the money in their pocket, when they hear bullying threats, such as the threat of reneging on our share of the debt. What tone would that bring to other negotiations about separation? It is hardly the way to make friends and impress people.
David Mowat
The hon. Gentleman is right to say that the Scottish Government cannot default on the debt, but can only refuse in the negotiation to take their share; the debt is already underwritten by the UK Treasury. What I do not understand about that position is that all the cash collection systems operating in the UK—Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, benefit systems and all the rest—will continue to be operated centrally. It is a mess.
Mr McKenzie
The hon. Gentleman makes some good points; but the main thing is that the Scottish Government believe they can do anything they want.
Losing the pound would mean a higher cost of living, with higher mortgage repayments, higher credit card and store card bills and more costly loans, because Scotland would start out as a separate state with no credit rating. There would also be an unnecessary threat to jobs: what would the exchange rate be? The cost of changing money every time Scottish firms were to buy from or sell to our biggest customer—the rest of the United Kingdom—would be an issue. There would be deeper cuts or higher taxes as the Scottish Government paid more to borrow money, leading to more debt and lower public spending. There would be risks to benefits and pensions as payments were converted into a different currency. Many people worry about what currency they will be paid in and what their savings will be worth.
There would also be risks to the economy. Without the back-up of the rest of the UK following the world banking crisis, Scottish banks would have gone under and families and businesses would have lost everything. Let us remember that billions were pumped into our banks following the world banking crisis. In my constituency alone, more than 400 jobs were saved. Time is running out for those who want a separate Scotland to give an answer and provide an assurance on currency. The Scottish people cannot be expected to go on any longer with “Don’t worry—it will be all right on the night.” It is not scaremongering to want a direct answer from the nationalists, incorporating a guarantee on currency in Scotland after 2014.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Members representing constituencies in Northern Ireland, which borders another country with a different currency, can attest to the difficulties with prices and services. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that retention of the pound sterling is essential for the continuation of trade, but also for the continuation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?
Mr McKenzie
I fully agree. What is scary is the attitude of the nationalists and the yes campaign—an attitude of casually and arrogantly waving off any challenge to their supposed plans. Those plans do not stand up to scrutiny—as we find now on the matter of currency; they would deliver not so much independence as isolation.
The question to the nationalists is simple, but the options are limited. Can they deliver a currency union? All the indications are that the answer is no. Will they go it alone and just use the pound, with the result that they will have no control over the economy? Will they go for a new currency, and will that be pegged or floating? The Scottish nationalists are keen to get closer to the Nordic regions, nations of a comparable size; they always cite Norway, Finland and Sweden, or anywhere in that supposed arc of success, as it fluctuates. In the past 10 years, Norway’s currency, which was pegged against the euro, has fluctuated, and there has been a high degree of movement, and cost implications, as a result. Alternatively, will the nationalists adopt the euro—if and when Scotland can gain entry to the EU?
Those questions are as yet unanswered. Scotland needs to know from the yes campaign what currency—guaranteed—would be used after 2014. We who want to remain part of the UK can guarantee Scotland’s currency after 2014; it will be the pound, and all that is necessary for that to happen is to vote no in September.
Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) for securing the debate and for his powerful and passionate speech. I also thank the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie), who in stating the successful trade statistics between Scotland and the rest of the UK made the case for Scotland to be part of the United Kingdom, not independent.
The currency that Scots would use after separation goes to the heart of the independence debate and cuts to the core deception in the SNP’s argument. There can be few more important issues than the currency in our pocket, the money that our businesses trade in, the cost of borrowing money or, indeed, how much money individuals, businesses and the country have to spend. It is not just a matter of what we spend in shops; it is about what people’s pensions and benefits are paid in, what businesses across the common UK market trade in, and what we borrow more of to buy a house or a car.
The proposals on currency put forward by the nationalists are rooted in assertion and baseless opinion, and in a determination to bluff and bluster their way to 18 September, when every credible expert on the issue has exposed the flaws in their currency union proposals. They used to be very clear about what sterling meant to them. We all remember when Alex Salmond said that
“sterling has been a millstone around Scotland’s neck”
or that it
“is costing Scotland jobs and prosperity.”
However, now that those arguments do not suit the cause, they have been conveniently dropped and he says:
“Retaining the pound under independence is something I believe is in Scotland’s interests”.
The nationalists have made those shameless U-turns and about-faces because they are determined to win the vote on 18 September.
Jonathan Edwards
My party shares with the SNP many of those criticisms. They are not about currency but monetary policy: the way that the Bank of England’s monetary policy has been directed towards pushing the financial sector in the south-east of England, rather than promoting the manufacturing-based economies of Wales and Scotland.
Anas Sarwar
The hon. Gentleman fails to realise in making that criticism of how the Bank of England has operated and the effect on Scotland and Wales that the nationalists’ currency union plans after independence would have exactly the same effect. Decisions about the interests of the people of Scotland would still be taken in this place; the choice is whether we should have a voice here at the same time. The hon. Gentleman is undermining that voice.
Mr Bain
Scotland’s First Minister wants to frame the debate as him against the elite, but perhaps I can share the views that a voter in my constituency expressed to me in Edgefauld road in Springburn on Saturday afternoon. She said, “If you get the details about the currency wrong, it is ordinary working people like me who suffer the biggest hit.” Is not that right? Is not that what happened in Ireland when living standards declined by 20% between 2007 and 2011, and is not my hon. Friend right to campaign in favour of the pound?
Anas Sarwar
I could not have put it better. Yes, this has an impact on business and big institutions, but the price will always be paid by the poorest and most vulnerable people. I and my Labour colleagues stand shoulder to shoulder with those people throughout the United Kingdom. The nationalists will throw everything into this debate—every assertion, opinion, myth, allegation, contention and baseless claim—so that they can win on 18 September. They do not have any recognition of reality; they are much more the Walter Mittys of Scottish politics. The only thing that they have been clear on is the willingness to hand over control of monetary policy to another country; in the words of the Governor of the Bank of England, they would “cede sovereignty”.
It is important to look at the first letter sent in May 1997 by the then Chancellor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), when he made the Bank of England independent. In paragraphs four and five of that letter, the point is made that
“The Bank is there to fulfil the objectives of the UK Government, as set out by the UK Government and not as determined by the Bank.”
So the Bank is there to support the economic policy of the UK, and after Scottish independence, it will be there to support the economic policy of the rest of the UK, not that of the Scottish Government. The Bank of England would go by the political will of the Chancellor of the Exchequer—whether the current Chancellor or the future Chancellor, the current shadow Chancellor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls). The Bank will follow that remit and not the remit of the current Scottish Government or, indeed, a future Scottish Government.
What does that mean for Scots? If someone has a mortgage, their interest rate will be controlled by the central bank of a foreign country, with no input or influence from Scots, no accountability and no say on inflationary targets or the cost of money supply. Likewise, if someone has a car loan, a credit card or an hire purchase agreement for a new suite or a new washing machine, all those things will be controlled by a foreign Government, with Scots having no say or influence, and with no accountability.
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He is making a very passionate speech. In addition to the points that he is making, there are the lessons from the European currency union and the debate within that union about the central bank having pre-budget approval of all the budgets proposed by member states. Can he envisage that applying to Scotland as well if those plans should unfold?
Anas Sarwar
I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. What I envisage is Scots making a confident and passionate no vote on 18 September and working together with our friends and colleagues in the UK to create the right kind of economy that works for everyone right across the UK.
The reality is that the cost of borrowing money would be in the hands of an institution over which the people of Scotland would have no say—none. If a Scottish business wanted to invest, the cost of borrowing that money would be controlled not by the Scottish Government but by the Government of Scotland’s biggest competitor and trading market. That is like British Airways setting the trading conditions and pricing policy of Virgin Atlantic. There would only be one winner in such an arrangement.
Is it any wonder that business organisations are horrified at these proposals? It is not that long ago that the SNP would churn out press release after press release attacking the UK Government, UK politicians or the Monetary Policy Committee, saying that the interest rates being set were not suitable for Scotland. What on earth does the SNP think would happen after independence?
The reality is that what the SNP is offering Scotland is neither right nor fair for Scots. That is the real democratic deficit on offer in this election. The other reality, and the reason why the SNP does not want to outline plan B, is that it knows that its entire White Paper is based on the assertion that sterling is kept. If sterling is lost, the entire White Paper comes into disrepute.
Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair)
Order. Before I call the last Member to speak, I remind her that I will call the shadow Minister to speak at 3.40 pm.
Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)
Thank you very much for calling me to speak, Mrs Riordan. It is a pleasure to have the opportunity to speak in this debate. I expected more Members to put their names forward to speak in this debate, and I would have liked to have seen more Members from the Scottish National party. I know that they have complained about lack of time, but this is the third debate on Scottish issues in the last week in which the SNP has not put many speakers forward. I have been in this place since 2005—[Interruption.]
Katy Clark
I am very grateful to you, Mrs Riordan. As I was saying, I have been a Member since 2005 and I am very aware that, frankly, it is often far easier for a member of one of the minority parties to be called to speak than someone from one of the larger parties, because of the way that the rules in this place operate.
Fiona O'Donnell
On a point of order, Mrs Riordan, I am very sorry to interrupt the flow of the debate, but it would be helpful if you could clarify something. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) has made serious allegations about the conduct of this debate. Could you clarify whether any hon. Members from the SNP asked to speak in it? Have they been prevented from speaking in it? Have they ever even requested a debate on the issue of the currency in Scotland?
Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair)
That is not a point of order. I call Katy Clark to speak.
Katy Clark
Thank you, Mrs Riordan. As I say, I agree with the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie): I would have liked a longer, more detailed debate. I hope that this is just one of a series of debates in this House on these kinds of issues.
Pete Wishart
The hon. Lady is a fair and reasonable woman, and she has accepted that we have very little time to address the other side of the argument. This really important debate must, of course, be heard in the House of Commons; will she work with us to try to ensure that when we debate these issues in future, we get a more equitable division of the time, so that both cases are made?
Katy Clark
I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that perhaps the first step would be for his colleagues to put in requests to speak.
Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend accept that yesterday, we had a six-hour-and-four-minute Opposition day debate, promoted by the Scottish National party and Plaid Cymru, in which all these issues could have been aired?
Katy Clark
Indeed, and we had a debate last Thursday on Scotland’s place in the Union. Those were the kind of events that we should use to explore these issues.
There is a great deal of debate on the subject in Scotland, but the decision taken there in September will have massive implications for the whole United Kingdom. I regret that in the two and a half years that we have been having this debate in Scotland, the quality of debate has not been higher. I hope that getting more people involved in the discussion, and getting more information and facts on the table, will improve the debate’s quality. I hope that today the UK Government will give their perspective on some of the questions, because that is part of what is required to continue the debate, which should be taking place here, in the Scottish Parliament, and communities up and down Scotland.
One of the most important decisions that an independent Scotland would take, if we voted for independence in September, would be on the currency, so I strongly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) on his choice of subject for debate, but currency is only one of the many economic issues that will be central to people’s decision making. To be honest, I never believed that I would see a referendum on Scottish independence in my political lifetime. It was not something that many people in Scotland argued for, historically. It is really only as a result of the electoral success of the Scottish National party—we can perhaps discuss the reasons for that on another occasion—that we are in this position. I also honestly do not believe that colleagues from the Scottish National party in this room ever believed that they would have a referendum on independence in their political lifetime.
Many people in Scotland are in the same position: when we go from door to door and speak to people, many genuinely have not finally made their mind up on the issue—particularly, I think, because of the economic turbulence that we have been living through in the past few years. It will not be simply an emotional choice that people make in September. Historically, many people who are sympathetic to independence have made that choice on emotional grounds, and grounds to do with identity and culture, but in the coming months, economic issues will be central to people’s decision-making processes.
I welcome the debate and some of the statements that have come forward in the past few weeks from people at UK level. I am a member of the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills; we had the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills before us last week, and he gave some of his views on the issue. We still need to get a lot more information to make decisions.
I have always looked at things from an economic point of view, and considered decisions on the basis of how I think we can improve the democratic accountability of our economy. I have always considered how we can take economic decisions that are more central to how we run our economy in the interests of ordinary people, rather than elites. That will be central as we go forward.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair in this important debate, Mrs Riordan. It has been lively at times, and there has been more heat than light on occasions, but none the less it is about trying to ensure that we have the opportunity to discuss the important issue of currency.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) on his superb opening contribution. He laid out clearly and articulately the issues that we have to discuss. We then heard useful contributions from my hon. Friends the Members for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann), for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie), for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar), and for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark).
I want to pick up on a couple of points made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran, because she articulated clearly that although many people in Scotland may have an emotional attachment to the idea of Scotland being an independent country, they none the less recognise the importance of the political, social and economic union that has existed over the years, and what an important decision this is for the people of Scotland to make in September. The Scottish National party would sometimes have us believe that everything will stay the same and nothing will change, but at the same time it tries to advance the notion that everything will change. That is not so. Increasingly, people are beginning to see through that false prospectus. A number of hon. Members spelled that out in some detail.
Increasingly, people are beginning to realise that the currency issue is important. For them, it is not just about the macro-economics, because some will, perhaps, not take an interest in that. However, they will take an interest in the money in their pay packets and in their pockets, in their ability to pay their way in the world, and in the impact on their mortgages, credit arrangements, store cards and car loans.
Fiona O'Donnell
My hon. Friend is summing up the debate in her usual excellent fashion. Is she struck by the views of young people, who will live with this decision far longer than any of us, particularly the youngsters in Fife who, having heard my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar), voted no yesterday?
Cathy Jamieson
My hon. Friend makes a valuable contribution, as always. I recognise that this is of huge importance to young people in Scotland. Obviously, young people aged 16 and 17 are, for the first time, have the vote in an important election. Of course, there are many young people here today in Parliament, including some members of the Scottish Youth Parliament, who are here to lobby on votes for 16-year-olds. I am struck by the intelligent way that young people have approached this debate. When it comes to the independence cause, they have not simply rushed to the barricades, as the SNP may, at one stage, have thought they would. They have thoughtfully debated, considered and put forward the arguments, and will come to their own conclusions, as indeed the rest of the people in Scotland will.
I have to say to the SNP that it is becoming rather tiresome to hear, every time anything is said that is not in agreement with the First Minister or his team, that we are somehow scaremongering. It is right and proper to scrutinise the proposals, including the White Paper and all the policies. [Interruption.] Indeed, the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) is agreeing with me. He is an intelligent and articulate man who takes a close interest in all Treasury, banking and financial services sector issues; I gently say to him that it is rather odd that despite that, he continues to trot out the SNP line the whole time, without giving that degree of scrutiny to the proposals made by his political party.
On that point, Professor John Kay, former economic adviser to the First Minister and professor of economics at the London School of Economics and Political Science, said:
“If I represented the Scottish government in the extensive negotiations required by the creation of an independent state, I would try to secure a monetary union with England, and expect to fail…So Scotland might be driven towards the option of an independent Scottish currency.”
He also said:
“Alex Salmond has said I think rather stupidly that there is no plan B. The trouble with having no plan B is you don’t have any negotiating power if you don’t have a Plan B. So there has to be a Plan B. And Plan B has to be an independent currency.”
We are not getting that honesty in the debate, as far as the people of Scotland are concerned. That is important.
Mr Bain
My hon. Friend is correct to talk about scrutiny, but of course the Institute for Fiscal Studies and the National Institute for Economic and Social Research have scrutinised the White Paper and concluded that under any of the possible currency options, the pressure on fiscal policy would mean that taxes would have to rise or spending would have to fall. Would not that create more pressure on public services and the social security system in Scotland?
Cathy Jamieson
Again, my hon. Friend makes an important point. Perhaps the Minister will shed light on whether there has been any discussion on these issues. The SNP’s current argument seems to be that, in an independent Scotland, it will not take any of the difficult decisions that go along with that. It is not entirely clear yet what will happen to all the benefits and pensions arrangements, and all the rest of it, for some time into the distance. The idea that it will be all right on the night is simply not good enough, as was said earlier.
People have lined up to criticise the SNP’s scenario, including Brian Quinn, former executive director of the Bank of England, Owen Kelly of Scottish Financial Enterprise, Iain McMillan, director of CBI Scotland, the chair of political economy at the university of Glasgow, and the chief European financial economist, who is from a key financial institution. All those people—I do not have time to quote them—have criticised it.
I was told, although I did not hear it personally and will look closely at the transcript, that the Deputy First Minister implied, on “Good Morning Scotland”, that if an independent Scotland did not get its own way on the currency union, it would simply default or walk away from a debt. My hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran said that she never thought that she would see a referendum in her lifetime. In all the years I was in the Scottish Parliament, during some of which time I served as a Minister, I never thought I would hear a Deputy First Minister of Scotland shirk responsibility and say that they would walk away from a debt and put Scotland’s economy at risk. I hope that that report from this morning is not entirely accurate. If it is, I hope that the Deputy First Minister now regrets those remarks and looks again at them.
Stewart Hosie
One of the few who is fair. In relation to the assertion that the hon. Lady and many of her colleagues have made about the Deputy First Minister—who, of course, cannot defend herself here—I am sure that the hon. Lady would agree that, if we are talking about negotiating a share of assets, which includes the central bank, we need to talk about negotiating a share of the liabilities, so we can take our responsibility for them. The UK Government and their allies cannot have it both ways. They cannot expect Scotland to take on a share of the liabilities while refusing even to negotiate on a share of the assets. Surely, as a reasonable person, the hon. Lady would agree that that makes no sense.
Cathy Jamieson
I have listened closely to what the hon. Gentleman says. Again, I gently suggest that if it is so important to have those parts of the United Kingdom that the SNP seems to want to retain, why on earth are we looking to break it up in the first place? Why are the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament not spending more time looking after the issues for which they have responsibility? Only at the weekend, there were reports about what was happening in the health service in Scotland; about the justice system—we have a proud record of a different legal system in Scotland—being dismantled, bit by bit, by the Scottish Government; and about a range of issues to do with social justice that are simply not being tackled by that Government. It would be better for the hon. Gentleman to reflect on that.
We have had an important debate. There has not been enough time, perhaps, to consider all the issues in detail, as we would have liked. I am sure that there will be further opportunities to do so. I wish to hear what the Minister has to say on this occasion; I am sure that I am more likely to agree with some of it than on other occasions, when I would be looking to put him under the kind of scrutiny that the hon. Member for Dundee East should be under today.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid)
I welcome you to the Chair, Mrs Riordan. It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, and it is good to see my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland here today. I congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) on securing this debate, on his excellent, thoughtful speech and on giving all hon. Members an opportunity to discuss this important issue. The debate has been lively and passionate. Indeed, it has been the liveliest and most passionate Westminster Hall debate that I have yet seen, which shows how important the issue is not just to the people of Scotland but to the people of the entire United Kingdom.
It is no exaggeration to say that the currency that we use affects everyone every day, whether they are individuals buying food or paying off loans, businesses paying their employees or trading across borders or banks protecting savings or providing mortgages. Currency is one of the most important issues in the Scottish referendum debate. Members may be aware that last April the UK Government issued a comprehensive paper exploring an independent Scotland’s possible currency options. Members will be aware—many hon. Members have referred to this today—that just last week the Governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, set out his views on currency unions in measured and, as he describes it, technocratic terms. Members may also have read that the Chancellor plans to give a speech on the matter later this week.
Pete Wishart
In the past few days, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor have been playing good toff, bad toff with Scotland. The Prime Minister is love-bombing us from London, and the Chancellor will be threatening us on currency in his speech in Scotland in the next two days. Which one does the Minister support—the good toff or the bad toff?
Sajid Javid
That goes to show that the SNP is not interested in a serious debate on one of the most important issues facing the Scottish and British people. That speaks for itself.
The Government have consistently stated throughout the debate that the current economic arrangement—one currency in one United Kingdom—is in the best interest of everyone. We have also consistently stated that it is highly unlikely that a currency union between an independent Scotland and a continuing UK could be made to work. I will use the remaining time to remind hon. Members of our analysis, which explains why that is the case.
First, the lessons of the eurozone crisis are there for us to see. Currency unions do not work without close political and fiscal integration. As a result of the crisis, those countries that use the euro are moving towards ever greater integration to address the challenges that they face. Scottish independence, though, is all about disintegration and would inevitably mean that the continuing UK and Scotland move further apart. The Scottish Government’s proposal for a currency union without fiscal or political integration lacks any credibility and makes one wonder whether the Scottish Government actually understand what the word “independence” means.
Secondly, we know that the economies of an independent Scotland and a continuing UK would be very different and would diverge over time as a result of different laws, different regulations and different industries. One industry that we know would be important for Scotland is North sea oil. A significant portion of an independent Scotland’s economy would depend on oil revenues. Were a change in oil price to affect the two countries differently, a one-size monetary policy with one currency for two separate nations would simply not be suitable.
Thirdly, despite the Scottish Government’s claim, we do not believe that a currency union would be in the interest of an independent Scotland. Such a union would inevitably constrain Scotland’s own economic policies because the remaining UK, to manage the risks of the union, would need to set interest rates and maintain oversight of an independent Scotland’s tax and spending plans. Indeed, a currency union would also be likely to undermine an independent Scotland’s economic resilience and credibility. If, for example, the financial markets sensed that the Bank of England’s monetary policy did not suit Scottish circumstances, they might doubt Scotland’s commitment to the currency union, which would, in turn, lead to financial market speculation. In such circumstances, if markets were not calmed, there would be a very real possibility that Scotland would be forced to adopt its own currency in a time of crisis. One is reminded of the recent situation in Cyprus when there was plenty of talk of the country potentially leaving the euro. Members will know that that was prevented only after a huge bail out from other eurozone members, which came at a significant cost to Cypriots, many of whom lost up to 40% of their deposits in domestic banks.
Fourthly, just as a currency union is not in Scotland’s interest, it is hard to see how it could be in the interest of the remaining United Kingdom. Such a union would involve the remaining United Kingdom giving up an element of its economic sovereignty, as we have heard from many hon. Members today. The public would feel very strongly about that. It would increase the risk of having to bail out Scottish banks, and the idea of putting the remaining United Kingdom’s economy at risk because of another country’s banks just as we are getting our own banks in order would make no sense.
Before I come to an end, I will address some of the questions that have been raised. I listened carefully to the speech of the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) and what he has to say on this issue is very important. I agree with the shadow Minister that he is an intelligent person who makes valuable contributions in the House, but from what I have heard today, he does not seem to want facts to get in the way of a good argument.
The hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members mentioned the banking bail outs of 2008. I remind him that the cost of recapitalising the Royal Bank of Scotland was £45 billion, which is the largest banking bail out the world has ever seen, plus an additional £275 billion of state support through guarantee and funding commitments. That sum is more than 200% of an independent Scotland’s GDP.
Stewart Hosie
Presumably, the Minister does not disagree with the Banking Commission that the total cash cost of the entire financial bail out of all the systems was £133 billion. Of the other figures that he talks about, £220 billion was made up of the asset protection scheme, which was a paid-for insurance guarantee. The scheme made the taxpayer a profit and was never called upon; it has since been shut down. Will the Minister confirm that that is correct?
Sajid Javid
Again, that is a good demonstration of how the hon. Gentleman would like to twist the facts. Just because a guarantee is not called upon does not mean that it has not done its job. The guarantee provided confidence and ensured that the banking system did not collapse. Our analysis shows that Scottish banks, even when we focus only on their assets in Scotland, would have assets equal to 10 times the GDP of an independent Scotland. That shows that it would be difficult for an independent Scotland to give depositors confidence in its domestic banking system.
The hon. Gentleman also mentioned trade between the UK and Scotland. The UK accounts for 70% of Scotland’s total trade, whereas Scotland accounts for 10% of the UK’s trade. Scottish trade is important to the UK economy, but it is not clear that it is important enough to risk recreating in the British isles the problems that we have seen in the euro area.
In conclusion, a fiscal and currency union pursued by two diverging nations would put significant limits on an independent Scotland’s economic freedom, and it would put an independent Scotland at severe risk of losing economic resilience and credibility. Such a union would undermine a continuing UK’s sovereignty and would increase the risk of bank bail outs. That is why we have consistently said that it is highly unlikely that a currency union would be agreed and that it is highly unlikely that a currency union could be made to work.
Stansted Airport
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)
I am pleased to have secured this debate on an important issue that cuts to the heart of growth and success in our country. Stansted airport began life as a United States air force base during world war two. More than 600 planes took off from that air strip on their historic journey to the French coast in the first hours of D-day in 1944. In the 70 years since then, the small air base has grown rapidly into a thriving modern airport, the fourth busiest in the United Kingdom. Last year, it served nearly 18 million passengers and flights to more than 150 destinations. Its passenger numbers are constantly increasing and are set to rise further in the coming years. Stansted is one of the infrastructure successes of our time, and that is the context in which the future of the airport must be considered. I am pleased to see the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) here. He represents the area and has taken up the issues over many years. I am also pleased to see other colleagues who have taken an interest.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
As the right hon. Gentleman knows, my constituency is next door to Stansted. Does he agree that the new owners of Stansted airport have already made a huge difference to the running and management of the airport? I have huge praise for their work. Does he agree that for any expansion or development of the airport to take place, the employer should do everything possible to include local people and ensure that they get the jobs that are there?
Mr Lammy
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that the next few years should see Stansted continuing to grow from strength to strength. Since being sold by BAA, its prospects have been strong. The new owner, Manchester Airports Group, has committed to building and improving Stansted. He is also right about the importance of local people. He will understand that unemployment in the region around the airport is fairly low, certainly when compared with my constituency. One reason why I am pleased to co-chair the group of MPs that supports the Stansted corridor is our shared interest in growth and employment in the region, as well as in the concerns of local people.
Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)
I am pleased to back the right hon. Gentleman in his ongoing campaign on Stansted. Does he share my view that the liberation of Stansted and Gatwick from the monopoly has worked wonders for both those airports? I know more about Gatwick than Stansted. Gatwick has done things that we were told were not possible, such as opening up flights to Vietnam and Indonesia. The beneficial consequences of competition between airports should be borne in mind as we talk about the bigger issues of airport capacity. Some of my colleagues seem keen to recreate what would effectively be a large taxpayer-subsidised, foreign-owned monopoly at Heathrow.
Mr Lammy
The hon. Gentleman’s persuasive tones are seductive. He is certainly right that the nature of competition in this market has been hugely important, although I suspect that we might disagree on other points. It was important that the monopoly in the system with BAA was broken. We are seeing a flourishing as a consequence of that monopoly being ended.
Guy Opperman
I support what the right hon. Gentleman is doing, and I congratulate him on securing the debate. To follow on from the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), is part of the ability to prosper as an economy that we allow regional airports—I obviously speak for Newcastle airport—to thrive, just as Stansted and Gatwick have been allowed to thrive? Does he agree that that should be the direction of travel from the Treasury and the Department for Transport?
Mr Lammy
I agree that that is one direction of travel. It has been interesting to see Newcastle airport recently open up huge new routes with huge new carriers, including flights to Dubai. That supports the hon. Gentleman’s point on regional airports.
The new owners have already signed up new airlines at Stansted, announced an £80 million redevelopment of the airport, launched a campaign to attract long-haul carriers to Stansted and signed deals that will add more than 11 million passengers in the next 10 years. That underlines all that has already been said. With ever increasing use and committed and forward-looking new owners, the future of Stansted looks bright.
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
There is no doubt that Stansted is doing well, but does my right hon. Friend agree that the Davies report has not given Stansted a fair analysis, because the analysis stops at 2030? If the Davies report had looked at runway capacity and airport capacity in the south-east until 2050, as we wanted, it might have given a different view on Stansted’s future, which is thriving.
Mr Lammy
My hon. Friend cuts to the chase. Long-term aviation strategy has been handed to the Davies commission, but it will not report until after 2015, so I do not want to stray too far into second-guessing what it might say. I am sympathetic to what my hon. Friend said, because I was somewhat surprised that the new runway at Stansted was not even included in the Davies report’s preliminary shortlist. Given the scope for development there, the predicted increases in passenger numbers and the airport’s ever-evolving success, it is surprising that that runway did not warrant further consideration as an option. I understand that that was in part due to Davies not taking into account the full passenger forecasts or the recent deals that have been signed under the new ownership at Stansted.
I am pleased that the commission, in highlighting the possible need for a new runway at Stansted by 2050, indicates that it at least accepts that the airport has long-term value. Either way, Davies has concluded that the choice over a new runway by 2030 is effectively between Heathrow and Gatwick. My priority for this debate is not what happens in 2030 or 2050, but what happens now. Regardless of what Davies eventually recommends, we have an immediate problem, which is that London urgently needs more air capacity. The prospect of any new runway is at best 15 years away, and those are 15 years that we do not have. London cannot afford to wait and should not sit by as the likes of Frankfurt, Schiphol and Charles de Gaulle surpass us and steal the benefits that accompany better connectivity.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Talking about now and the need to have increased capacity and better facilities at Stansted airport, I encourage the right hon. Gentleman to take note of the impact that an increased number of flights can have on other parts of the United Kingdom. For example, that can increase the number of flights to Belfast City airport and Belfast International airport. That increases competition and drives down prices, and that can encourage more people to take up air travel. We can feel the dividends of what happens to Stansted in Belfast if it is done correctly.
Mr Lammy
I am grateful to hear that, as will be my many Irish constituents.
Last year, Germany overtook the UK on new investments, which is hardly surprising when it has many more connections to developing markets in China, India and Latin America. Heathrow has nearly half as many flights to China as Frankfurt. In fact, London has fewer weekly flights than its European rivals to most of the emerging market economies. All that comes despite the fact that British trade increases by up to 20 times when there are direct flights to a country. That is why short-term measures are crucial if we are to prevent yet more business from being lost to our competitors.
Much more can be done in the short term to boost Stansted’s success and to alleviate pressure on London’s other airports, the core of which is urgently improving rail links to Stansted airport. Given the current state of the links, 34 million people in Stansted’s catchment area avoid the airport and catch flights elsewhere.
Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on securing this debate. He is being generous in taking interventions. I underline the importance of what he says about rail links and want to emphasise importance of high-speed coach links from places such as Oxford and elsewhere to the west and north-west of London, because the length of journeys to Stansted diminishes its ability to fulfil its undoubted regional potential.
Mr Lammy
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for making that important point. All these factors put unnecessary pressure on Gatwick and Heathrow, which are already operating at full capacity. In fact, Stansted is the only London airport with spare capacity. As a medium-term solution to our aviation problem, why are we not utilising the Stansted’s 50% unused capacity?
The problem is that the West Anglia main line—the main access route to Stansted—is in a dire state. It has suffered from year after year of underinvestment, and, as a result, it is slow, unreliable and inefficient. It takes 53 minutes to get to Stansted from a London rail terminal, compared with 37 minutes to Luton, 30 minutes to Gatwick and 21 minutes to Heathrow. Reliability, meanwhile, is well below the national average. The rail link is a real impediment to Stansted’s growth and future success. The Davies commission noted that in its interim report, which stated that there are substantial arguments in favour of enhancing the link, which merits urgent consideration. I want to press the Minister on that urgent consideration. Like Davies, Transport for London, Network Rail, the Government and London business groups have all voiced their support for the improvements. There is a consensus that four-tracking the line between Coppermill junction and Broxbourne is vital. I welcome that consensus, although it has been long enough in coming. We need urgent action.
Timing remains a real issue, however. It is a growing concern that the work may be delayed further and further. Network Rail has suggested that the improvements, despite being described by Davies as urgent and vital, may be pushed back into control period 6, which does not even begin for another five years. Similar delays have occurred several times already. I hope that the Minister’s response will outline concrete steps that the Government will take to improve the West Anglia main line. Following Davies stressing the need for urgency, I hope that the Minister will tell us how the Government will complete the work in the shortest time possible. If he is unable to give such a response now, will he assure me that it will be included in the Government’s response to Davies’ initial report, which is due to be published this spring? I see no reason why a commitment to proceeding with the upgrades could not be included in this year’s autumn statement, with the start of enabling work being included in next month’s Budget.
London First has reported that four-tracking could be completed by 2021. That should be our aim. There is a minority view that four-tracking is unnecessary, but there are no alternatives. We need to act now. Even if we do not take anything else into account, we cannot ignore that four-tracking is a crucial prerequisite to the development of Crossrail 2. The Minister will be familiar with the undertakings given not only by the Chancellor, but by the Mayor of London to move towards Crossrail 2 over this next period.
I acknowledge the time and know that the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) wants to speak, but I want to emphasise the importance of the region to our country as a whole. The London-Cambridge corridor is an essential component of growth in a recovering economy. Cambridge is essential to the region and we need growth in this region akin to that of Boston and the eastern corridor of the United States. That cannot be achieved without a thriving airport with high-speed links to London. A York Aviation study published on Monday found £53 million-worth of journey time savings could be made by improving the quality of the line. A recent report by Oxford Economics concluded that investing in four-tracking could unlock economic benefits to the tune of £4.5 billion by 2021 and £10.7 billion by 2031. Development is also important for jobs in the region. My constituents in Tottenham rely heavily on the success of the Upper Lee valley corridor and on jobs at Stansted. West London accounts for 17% of all jobs in London, for example, and Heathrow supports 230,000 jobs.
The future of Stansted is hugely important to the UK’s whole economy. It pains me that we are still discussing upgrading the West Anglia main line. It is important that this region of London is put on the map. I have been opposed to the Mayor’s idea of Boris island, largely because of where it would leave west London’s economy and the huge loss of jobs that would be a consequence of Heathrow’s closure. Stansted is a key component of the rebalancing of London’s economy to the east and north-east, so I look forward to what the Minister has to say.
Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)
I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) and the Minister for agreeing that I can make a small contribution to this debate. It is always interesting to hear from other colleagues about the airport that lies wholly in my constituency. It is a subject about which I have spoken in the House on many occasions over the past 36 years.
The title that the right hon. Gentleman gave this debate raised some eyebrows in my constituency and elsewhere in Essex, almost to the point where briefing was coming in on the basis that we would this afternoon be deciding the future of Stansted airport, but that is perhaps a little optimistic. The reality is accepted by my constituents, who were opposed to the development of Stansted into a major London airport. It currently has an agreed capacity of up to 35 million passengers per annum and it could go further than that on a single runway. It currently handles 7.8 million passengers per annum, so there is a long way to go.
I do not decry the importance of the subject to the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency, but he must recognise that when he talks about job creation in my constituency, he is talking about a constituency with 1.3% unemployment. For all the jobs that will be created at the airport, even with its existing planning permission, a great many of those will be taken by people who will then want to migrate to my constituency, which is essentially a rural area that is already bearing a great burden of demand for more housing. He must understand why there are concerns about the extent to which Stansted can grow.
Sir Alan Haselhurst
We have a common position on the improvement of the railway line, so that people from north London can come to find jobs in the area and commute back again conveniently.
There is resistance in my constituency to the development of Stansted beyond one runway and certainly to its becoming a hub airport, because people see the down side of what could happen. As they see it, there is little up side if development on that scale can take place. Had it been possible to say that there would be a first-class rail line as a result of the original decision to expand Stansted, that might have been seen as a benefit, but the service has got worse. I absolutely agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is important for us soon to have a four-track railway on the West Anglia line.
The blame has to be shared. It starts with the Government of Mrs Thatcher, who agreed the development, but not the infrastructure. It went on through the years of the Labour Government, who wanted not only to expand Stansted, but to put more houses in the M11 corridor, yet they still did nothing about the infrastructure. Under the present Government, we are now waiting for a sign that action will be taken. In that sense, the right hon. Gentleman and I may make common cause, but please do not go away with the thought that my constituents welcome the idea that Stansted should be the hub airport with two, three or four runways. London needs a hub airport, but it does not need it in the Essex countryside.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)
I am pleased that we found time to squeeze in my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst). Sadly, however, I suspect that I will not be able to take any interventions, so that I may answer the points made by the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), who I congratulate on securing the debate.
I am well aware of the right hon. Gentleman’s ambitions for improving the economic prosperity of the London-Stansted-Cambridge corridor, which includes his own constituency. I applaud his efforts. Stansted airport is clearly of central importance to those aspirations, and the Government also recognise the important role that the airport has to play in maintaining the UK’s international connectivity.
In that light, it is worth while to take a few minutes to consider the future of Stansted airport in the context of the Government’s wider aviation policy. The Government are well aware of the important contribution of aviation to the economy, but we also recognise the need to take a balanced approach. Last year, therefore, we published our aviation policy framework—a long-term strategy to enable the UK aviation sector to flourish and support economic growth, while addressing issues such as aircraft noise and carbon emissions.
The Government believe that maintaining the UK’s status as a leading global aviation hub is fundamental to the country’s long-term international competitiveness. We appointed Sir Howard Davies to chair an independent commission to identify and recommend to Government how best to achieve that. The commission published its interim report on 17 December 2013, concluding that, while the UK remains well connected, additional capacity will be needed to support competitiveness and prosperity in the medium and longer term. The commission will undertake further detailed analysis of proposals for new runways at Gatwick and Heathrow airports. It will also examine further the Isle of Grain, or Boris island, option to reach a view before the year’s end on whether it should be considered alongside the shortlisted options.
We welcome the interim report as a major milestone for the commission. It represents a significant step forward in its work of assessing the options for meeting the UK’s future aviation needs. As I am sure Members appreciate, the Government have no intention of commenting on any of the long-term options that were, or were not, shortlisted while the Airports Commission continues its work. The Government, however, intend to respond to the commission’s short-term recommendations and will do so as soon as possible. The commission will provide its final report by the summer of 2015 for consideration by the Government and Opposition parties—whoever they may be.
I will experience first hand Stansted airport, and surface access to and from it in particular, when I visit the airport next month.
Robert Halfon
We have discussed the railways, but does my hon. Friend agree that if the airport is to be expanded, expansion of the M11 is also needed? Does he support the necessity of an extra M11 junction, in particular into Harlow, to speed up the traffic to and from the airport?
Mr Goodwill
I have something to say on road connectivity, but I rather suspect that I will not get to that bit of my speech, so I will show it to my hon. Friend later if I do not reach it. In addition to rail connectivity, however, the roads in the area are important.
Stansted airport is London’s third busiest airport and the UK’s fourth busiest, but it is still only half full. The airport therefore has an important role to play in growing connections between the UK and the rest of the world, now and in the future, as noted by the Airports Commission in its interim report. Recently, we have seen a number of developments at Stansted that help the airport to fulfil its potential and to fill its spare capacity, including its acquisition by Manchester Airports Group.
At the end of the month, it will be one year since Manchester Airports Group purchased Stansted airport. I welcome the significant investment in Stansted by its new owner, which I am familiar with through Industry and Parliament Trust activity when I was in opposition. In less than 12 months, we have seen huge improvements to the terminal, as part of an £80 million investment programme. I am pleased that the airport has already committed to further investment in the infrastructure to improve all aspects of the customer journey.
In the past year, the airport has announced long-term deals with its major airlines that will see passenger numbers increase substantially over the next 10 years. This summer alone, the airport will introduce 12 new routes and a substantial increase in services to key destinations. It is excellent to see passengers benefitting from the increased competition between airports around London.
The Government are also playing their part in making the airport more accessible and attractive to passengers. For example, since 2010, the Stansted Express has benefitted from a brand new fleet of trains, the Bombardier class 379 electric multiple units, which were assembled right here in Britain. Those modern, spacious and comfortable trains now operate for all Stansted Express services—a change that has been warmly received by users.
It may be helpful if I explain that the West Anglia main line, which serves the airport, is a busy, two-track railway. It provides metro-style services for passengers within Greater London; longer distance and commuter services to towns in Essex and Cambridgeshire; and the Stansted Express airport services. Network Rail and train operators must ensure that all users are properly served. Government investment will support future growth on the route and improve reliability. The Government’s 2012 rail investment strategy confirmed an £80 million scheme to deliver three and four-tracking of the southern section of the route, including a contribution from the Mayor and Transport for London. In the longer term, I am aware of stakeholder aspirations for further capacity enhancements—an issue to which I will come shortly.
The Stansted Express service provides a frequent connection between the airport and London. During the day, services run every 15 minutes to London Liverpool Street station, thereby providing direct connections to the City of London and making Stansted an attractive airport for business travellers from around the world. Liverpool Street of course benefits from good onward connections, including links to four London underground lines and, from 2019, connections to Crossrail.
In addition, all Stansted Express services stop at Tottenham Hale station, which is in the constituency of the right hon. Member for Tottenham and is well served by the Victoria line. That is a convenient route for many airport travellers who wish to gain access to parts of north and west London. Looking to the future, east London is experiencing significant growth and, in addition to having the Olympic park and the Westfield shopping complex, Stratford is becoming a major transport interchange with connections to two underground lines.
Stansted passengers of course do not only want to travel between the airport and London. West Anglia in particular is a thriving region, and its economy is supported and enhanced by its proximity to Stansted. At present, an hourly service runs to Birmingham, providing connections to Leicester, Peterborough and Cambridge—a market that we see as extremely important and one that we wish to support. The Government are already working with Abellio Greater Anglia, Network Rail and the airport to introduce new early morning trains from Cambridge to cater for the first wave of outbound flights.
We recognise that there is a desire for more early morning and late night trains to and from Stansted. The Government are working with train operating companies and Network Rail to see whether some rail services can be made available at night or in the early morning, which is when a great many flights arrive or depart from Stansted. That of course is also the time when essential maintenance needs to be undertaken on the line, but if a solution can be found, that will benefit both the airport’s passengers and the work force.
In the interim report, the Airports Commission proposed improvements to surface access to airports. The Government set out their initial response to the recommendations in the national infrastructure plan, published in December. It included accepting the need to study possible rail improvements at Stansted airport and their interactions with other growing areas, as identified by the commission. We have instructed Network Rail fully to consider the needs of the airport as part of its Anglia route studies, currently due to report in the summer of 2015. In conclusion, as I am sure the right hon. Gentleman agrees, taking all that into account, the future of Stansted airport looks very promising indeed.
Mid-Wales Connection Project
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
I look forward to speaking once more under your always sympathetic chairmanship, Mrs Riordan.
I will make a few initial comments about how I want to approach today’s debate. I could have tackled this issue, the effective industrialisation of the uplands of central Wales, from several different directions, but I want to focus completely on the direct implications of the mid-Wales connection project—the 400 kV line that will run from north Shropshire to the middle of my constituency. I assure the Minister that I have no intention of making any reference to the public inquiry currently taking place at the Royal Oak hotel, Welshpool, into the six proposals that have been refused and are to go to appeal. I know that he would not be able to comment on that, and I intend to refer to it only tangentially.
Normally when my thoughts turn to the appalling consequences of this project for the people of mid-Wales, I find it difficult not to become over-emotional—I become pretty angry and tend to lose my grip completely. That is fine when I am speaking to 2,000 people in Welshpool livestock market who all share my view and are protesting, or to the 1,800 people who have come with me on a three-and-a-half-hour bus journey to Cardiff to make their views known outside the National Assembly. Today I want to be calm, cool and rational, and to speak with understanding for the position of the Minister, who of course has to make his response in the context of Government policy.
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. Before he leaves his point about the passion with which he has directed this campaign—or crusade, as I guess he might regard it—I remind him that the concerns that he has voiced are felt very much to the immediate east of his constituency, across the border in England, but also to the west in Ceredigion. Mercifully, we have seen a project abandoned, temporarily at least, in Nant-y-Moch, but does he agree that the natural environment that he is keen to defend and protect is under threat in my constituency as well?
Glyn Davies
Indeed I do. I am glad that my hon. Friend intervened, in part because he is a Liberal Democrat, which shows that the feeling in mid-Wales is cross-party. If my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams), another Liberal Member, were here, he would take exactly the same view. The people of mid-Wales as a whole, along with all their representatives, share the view that I intend to express today.
Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)
Will my hon. Friend give way?
Daniel Kawczynski
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for including Shropshire in the title that he gave to the debate. We had to fight tooth and nail to prevent the power lines coming through my constituency—they will now, as he knows, be going through north Shropshire—and for a long time, there was tremendous anger and fear among residents in the western part of my constituency: the proposed lines might have been coming through the area where their homes are and they feared the impact of that. I completely concur with him on the devastation and misery that the project has caused.
Glyn Davies
I thank my hon. Friend for those remarks. There is quite a large part of the country in which the feeling is comprehensively the same.
I have two overall objectives today. I want to lay out the full appalling reality of what the mid-Wales connection project means for mid-Wales and Shropshire. Many people do not understand what the project is. Clearly, there is the 400 kV line, about 50 km long, from north Shropshire to the middle of my constituency, travelling up the beautiful, narrow Vrynwy valley. But because that line is dedicated to onshore wind farms, it is more than reasonable to conclude—in fact, it is blatantly obvious to anyone—that that will mean that there will be about 500 extra turbines in mid-Wales on top of what we have already; there are about 240 wind turbines now. On top of that, there will be about 100 miles of 132 kV cable criss-crossing Montgomeryshire all over the place, from the wind farms themselves to the 20-acre hub station in the middle of the county.
By any description imaginable, that is the industrialisation of the central uplands of mid-Wales and the Cambrian mountains. To many of us, it is an absolute abomination; I cannot believe that anybody with any sanity or appreciation—I am sorry, I am starting to go off on my usual rant. I will draw myself back.
Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con)
I have come here to support my colleagues from Shropshire and Wales, a part of the country I happen to know extremely well. Does my hon. Friend agree that the cables are going to go through some of the most beautiful countryside in our two countries?
Glyn Davies
I could not agree more. That was the inspiration for my taking an interest in the issue, as I have since 2005. I will come back to why that date specifically is important.
My second objective today is to ask the Minister to agree publicly that enough is enough and that it is time for a moratorium on onshore wind farms. Much as I would like him to, I do not expect him to be able jump up and say, “Yes, I absolutely agree—as from today, there will be no more.” But it is important to put on the record that a huge and increasing number of people think that there is a strong case for that.
I want to put the case that I myself feel there is for a moratorium. I have never been convinced that onshore wind power was the right way to go to solve the UK’s energy demands, but I have always accepted that it had a part to play in the mix, which is what Government policy usually says. The mid-Wales connection project became an obvious likelihood in 2005 when the Assembly adopted a policy the consequences of which very few people understood. I am deeply grateful to Peter Ogden, the director of the Campaign for the Protection of Rural Wales, who explained it to me in 2005. I became the president of that organisation three years before I came to this place because I so appreciated his understanding of what the impact of the policy would be. It was only then that I realised quite how bad the situation was.
It is not, then, that I have always been against onshore wind power in principle, but mid-Wales has 240 turbines already. Another 500 on top, with all the power lines as well, is simply beyond the scale of anything that is reasonable. I wanted to look at the Government’s policy, so I asked the Library about the issue. I know that the Government have an overall target of 15% of energy coming from renewable sources by 2020. I understand that there is no direct policy for targets within that on specific types of renewable energy, but the Government have expectations and aspirations, or whatever word we want to use, and the sort of total that is being looked at is 10 GW to 15 GW for wind power—that is the figure the Library told me in November. Now, 7 GW have already been installed, a further 6.63 GW are through the planning process and another 6.33 GW are already in planning. We have already reached anything that could reasonably be described as the Government’s expectation. There is no case for taking it any further.
If we look at Governments in Europe—Germany, Spain and the European Union itself—they are identifying that the cost of the subsidies is unsustainable. Indeed, those countries are all looking to cut back. We might find that we are committing ourselves in the United Kingdom to a massively expensive project in mid-Wales, but in 10 years time the policy behind it will have been abandoned, and we will have stranded assets. The cost of the project is huge: 10% of the capital investment will be added on to the cost of everybody’s electricity for the next 30 years. That is the scale of what happens with such a hugely expensive project. The only reason National Grid is going forward with it is because it has a statutory obligation to do so. It makes no sense at all.
Daniel Kawczynski
Does my hon. Friend agree that one crazy aspect of the matter is how far the site is from the national grid, and that the Government must provide some advice and management about where the pylons will be sited so that the countryside is not plastered over to connect places to the national grid?
Glyn Davies
My hon. Friend will not be surprised to know that I agree with that point.
I want to spend a little time on the impact on democracy in central Wales and perhaps wider. Democracy is the principle on which the Government and the House of Commons operate, and people believe they can have some influence on policy through their elected Members of Parliament. That is particularly apt, because the Government are committed to the principle of localism and legislated for that in England, although there has been no such legislation in Wales. Localism is a key part of the Government’s policies.
I receive dozens of e-mails, and I have one here from someone who says that National Grid is now at their door with a legal right of access to conduct a walk-over service for the forthcoming pylon route corridor, and that they feel the rope tightening around their necks but powerless to fight against it. That is standard. A research paper from Aberystwyth university referred to the hopelessness and helplessness felt by the people of mid-Wales when they see what is happening. They do not want the pylons, but they believe that they can do nothing about it. They feel helpless.
I have spoken before about National Grid’s behaviour, which makes me cross. I received a letter yesterday from Llansantffraid community council about the way National Grid behaves. Not only that, an 86-year-old woman contacted me after going to her county councillor. She had been subject to process service, whereby heavy-duty bailiffs turned up at her door and terrified her. The chairman of the council told her straightforwardly to agree with them and to do what they say for the sake of her health. That has happened umpteen times throughout my constituency. My point is not about proper behaviour, but about the attitude to our right to influence what we can do.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his fantastic campaign here and elsewhere on behalf of his constituents. Does he agree that localism means many things, but if it is to mean anything it should take account of local constituents’ views on major projects?
Glyn Davies
I do, and onshore wind is not the only area where there is an uprising of local opinion. I am not saying that the Government ignore that, but there is a feeling in mid-Wales that we are being ignored. The area does not have a huge number of people living there. Shropshire is more populous, but the main impact is on mid-Wales. There is a feeling that we are being forgotten and ignored, and that is dangerous because any Government who behave like that will lose people’s support for democracy and disengage them from the process. They will start to ask why they should vote if no one in the world takes any notice.
Last Saturday morning, I went to a bring-and-buy sale at the Royal Oak in Welshpool. There were stalls selling pot plants, books and bric-à-brac to raise money to resist these developments. People had paid taxes on that money, which came from their own pockets, and they were raising it to try to obtain proper legal advice to fight the cause. At the inquiry, lined up against them, will be a row of barristers employed by wind farm companies and National Grid. Those people paid money from their own pockets to defend mid-Wales from something they believe is wrong, but in a supposedly equal position will be a row of barristers representing the companies and paid from the public purse—from subsidy. That is where the money comes from. Not only do people have to pay from their own pockets to try to defend themselves, they must pay for the other side to have the most professional advice imaginable to defend their corner.
I know the Government’s policy, and I hope that they will review it and start to take on board the general view. I have spoken about the matter before, and if we ignore the overwhelming views of the people of mid-Wales and cover the place in wind farms, it will be an abomination in one of the most beautiful parts of Britain, and a great risk to the democracy that we all hold so precious.
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Michael Fallon)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) on securing this debate. The need for and the impact of electricity network infrastructure is an important and sensitive issue. I welcome the opportunity to explain the need for upgrading our existing electricity network, to clarify the approach when deciding where and how new infrastructure is delivered, and how that relates to the proposals for Montgomeryshire and Shropshire. I understand, not least because my hon. Friend champions them so articulately, his concerns about the impact that onshore wind development can have on communities.
We have made it very clear that onshore wind farms must be appropriately sited and that local communities should be properly engaged and see real benefits from hosting them if they choose to do so. My hon. Friend knows that I cannot comment further on individual applications, but to accommodate the new generation, irrespective of onshore wind, but including nuclear power and offshore wind, the existing transmission network needs to be expanded. Before I turn to the proposed electricity connections in Montgomeryshire and Shropshire, it might be helpful if I explain the wider approach to how we decide on new network infrastructure.
Under the current regulatory framework, it is for the network companies to submit proposals for new infrastructure to the regulator, Ofgem, and to the relevant planning authorities. The proposals must be based on a well-justified need case, such as new generation connection or maintenance of a safe and secure network. The companies also propose routes and types of infrastructure, and in doing so they are required to make a balanced assessment of the benefits of reducing any adverse environmental and other impacts of new infrastructure against the costs and technical challenges of doing so following extensive consultation with stakeholders. Those requirements are set out in their licence obligations under the Electricity Act 1989 to develop economic and efficient networks and to have regard to the preservation of amenity and the mitigation of effects that their activities might have on the natural beauty of the countryside.
In addition to the legal requirement to consider the wider impact of new infrastructure, Ofgem published in July 2013 information for stakeholders on how that should be taken into account. That clarifies the fact that network companies are required to consider wider impacts and alternative solutions to overhead lines. That regulatory approach is reinforced by the Government’s energy national policy statements. They set out the framework for factors to be considered when consenting to an infrastructure project of national significance. They make it clear that for electricity networks cost should not be the only factor in determining the type of network technology used, and that proper consideration should be given to other feasible means of connection, including underground and subsea cables.
Glyn Davies
I thank my right hon. Friend for making that point, but all I can say is that when people in mid-Wales speak to National Grid or SP Energy Networks, who will do the 100 miles of cable between the hub, they say that it would cost six times as much to build a line from Shrewsbury to north Shropshire, so it will do that on only a small portion of it. They will not do the rest of the lines purely because of the cost back to the wind farm companies. That is what they tell us. That is what they tell me.
Michael Fallon
I understand my hon. Friend’s frustration and how his constituents feel about it. In a few moments I will turn to the specific issues in Montgomeryshire and Shropshire. I was explaining how we have reinforced the framework and laid the additional duty to consider both the impact on the countryside and alternatives such as underground or subsea.
Within that framework, National Grid, which owns the transmission network in England and Wales, published a new approach to building new transmission infrastructure, putting greater emphasis on mitigating the visual impact of new electricity lines while balancing that against the need to manage the impact on costs, which ultimately are funded through our constituents’ energy bills. I hope that that balanced approach provides more reassurance to areas potentially affected by cables and pylons that alternatives to new overhead lines are considered fully and very thoroughly. Since the costs and technical difficulties vary so much from project to project, it is also important that each one is assessed on a case-by-case basis to ensure that the right planning decision is taken each time.
The Government consider that the costs and benefits of undergrounding electricity lines are important. That is why my Department supported an independent study to give clarity on the practicality, whole-life costs and impacts of undergrounding and subsea cabling as alternatives. That report was published in January 2012 and its findings are generally consistent with the comparative costs that National Grid has quoted when evaluating options on current projects. It should provide a useful point of reference to inform the planning process.
Let me turn to the potential need for and development of network infrastructure in Montgomeryshire and Shropshire. The application to connect the proposed wind farms in mid-Wales will be decided by the appropriate planning authorities and Ministers, and it would not be appropriate for me to give a view on the particulars of the project or on the proposed wind farms, which are, as my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire said, currently subject to a public inquiry. However, I certainly recognise that many people feel very strongly about overhead lines and other network infrastructure, and about the impacts they can have on the landscape. Effective consultation with local communities and other interested parties is a vital part of the planning process. When making proposals for new infrastructure, network companies have to demonstrate that alternatives were considered and why the preferred option is justified. That consideration must show that stakeholders have been engaged effectively.
National Grid has been undertaking a pre-planning applications consultation within the framework that I set out earlier. Last year, it sought views on the preferred route option and substation site, including some undergrounding of lines. National Grid has received more than 200 replies to its latest consultation, which closed in November, and more than 500 people attended drop-in events that it hosted. That demonstrates the very strong local interest in the proposals and in their potential impacts. It also shows that National Grid is engaging with local communities as it develops its proposals.
National Grid plans to publish its final proposed design for the connection towards the end of this year for further consultation. After that, it expects to submit its applications for consents in 2015. I am encouraged by the greater stakeholder engagement and consideration being given by National Grid to alternatives to overhead lines since the new planning framework was introduced. That is the behaviour that the planning and regulatory frameworks now require.
I thank my hon. Friend for raising the subject again. It is important that we understand that although our challenge is to build a low-carbon economy, based on an energy mix that meets our environmental targets and security of supply needs, that, in turn, requires an expansion in the transmission network to accommodate the required new generation. However, deciding where and how that infrastructure is delivered requires informed and balanced consideration of a number of factors, including not only costs, but the environmental impacts and the needs of local communities, as well as the needs of the country as a whole.
The planning and regulatory approval processes for new electricity network infrastructure require that stakeholders are properly consulted on those important decisions, and that their views are demonstrably taken into account when the proposals are finalised for final consultation. That process is now under way in Montgomeryshire and Shropshire, where National Grid is consulting stakeholders in developing its proposals. I strongly encourage those with an interest to continue to engage with National Grid in that process and to help ensure that the right decisions are made. I again thank my hon. Friend for drawing the House’s attention to this important set of proposals.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Statements
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Charity Commission (Contingent Liability)
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Hurd)
It is normal practice, when a Government Department proposes to undertake a contingent liability in excess of £300,000 for which there is no specific statutory authority, for the Department concerned to present to Parliament a minute giving particulars of the liability created and explaining the circumstances; and to refrain from incurring the liability until 14 parliamentary sitting days after the issue of the minute, except in cases of special urgency.
Last year the Charity Commission matched the anonymised personal data of all trustees and charity correspondents registered with the Charity Commission against the CIFAS national fraud database on a pilot basis for which CIFAS membership was not necessary. The level of resulting matches to fraud risk were of concern and the board of the Charity Commission directed that it become a member of CIFAS to carry out a further pilot to develop clear information to: inform on the need for any action against individuals; support the development of a fraud risk profile for the sector; provide a means of checking new trustees and correspondents for linkage to fraud and right to remain in the UK. The commission proposes piloting this by the end of March 2014, by which time it will need to have joined CIFAS. The Charity Commission proposes continuing its membership without break after the first year should the pilot prove successful.
The minute therefore confirms the Charity Commission plans to enter into CIFAS membership shortly and that it will need to sign an indemnity with CIFAS.
A public authority may become (and subject to the rules of CIFAS, remain) a member of CIFAS provided that it is empowered and authorised (among other requisites) to execute the required deed of indemnity. The Charity Commission must provide a written indemnity, irrevocably indemnifying CIFAS, its chairman and directors, members, affiliates, participating agencies, participating users and employees of CIFAS, on or prior to joining CIFAS, against claims resulting from any breach of statutory duty or breach of the Data Protection Act 1998 on the part of the Charity Commission in connection with its membership of CIFAS.
The Charity Commission must subscribe to the CIFAS group libel insurance scheme, which underpins the CIFAS indemnity arrangements. The upper limit of indemnity for the insurance scheme is currently limited to £5 million —plus an excess agreed annually, currently £5,000. The deed of indemnity is, however, unlimited and therefore covers amounts claimed in excess of £5 million or, where a claim results from the provision of inaccurate data deemed avoidable, the entire value of the claim.
The departmental minute notifies Parliament of the Charity Commission’s intention to execute this deed of indemnity and subscribe to the CIFAS group libel insurance scheme. The notification to Parliament is proposed to last for three years from commencement of CIFAS membership. The Charity Commission shall, of course, provide further notification if the undertaking is likely to change within this period. The situation will be reviewed after three years and, if the Charity Commission intends to maintain its CIFAS membership, Parliament will be notified accordingly.
The Charity Commission does not consider the risk of the indemnity being called upon to be significant. The Charity Commission will only share data where it is lawful to do so and in accordance with the provisions of the Data Protection and Human Rights Acts. Maintaining accurate and up-to-date information will limit the chance of incorrect information being passed to CIFAS. All information will be shared in a secure manner in line with Cabinet Office guidelines on transferring data. Further, a CIFAS member that receives a CIFAS warning from the system is not allowed to automatically refuse an application or to close a facility because of the warning. They are required to make further enquiries to confirm personal identification details before making a decision. If a liability is called, provision for any payment will be sought through the normal estimates procedure.
The Treasury has approved this proposal in principle. If, during the period of 14 parliamentary sitting days beginning on the date on which this minute was laid before Parliament, a Member signifies an objection by giving notice of a parliamentary question or by otherwise raising the matter in Parliament, final approval to proceed with incurring the liability will be withheld pending an examination of the objection.
I am arranging for the minute to be deposited in the Library of the House.
Double Taxation Conventions (Japan, Iceland, Zambia)
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
A protocol to the double taxation convention with Japan and a new double taxation convention with Iceland were signed on 17 December 2013. A new double taxation convention with Zambia was signed on 4 February 2014.
The text of the protocol and the conventions have been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses and made available on HM Revenue and Customs’ website. The texts of each will be scheduled to a draft Order in Council and laid before the House of Commons in due course.
Floods Update
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles)
I would like to update the House on further actions the Government are taking to provide definitive and ongoing support to those affected by the current severe weather and flooding.
Since the east coast surge in early December, over 5,600 properties have been flooded across England, including 921 since late January. In all, over 1.3 million properties have been protected since early December. But for those whose lives continue to be disrupted, the Government are taking exceptional action for exceptional circumstances.
Response
The Government’s emergency committee, COBR, continues to meet daily to provide a strategic, co-ordinated response to events so every bit of support is provided to allow people to get back to their normal lives as soon as possible. Officials from my Department are present as Government liaison officers at the multi-agency command centres in all affected areas, ensuring we have good two-way information flows on what Government support is needed and what we can provide. A total of 1,650 military personnel remain at high readiness to do whatever is needed to support residents and businesses in affected communities. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has made clear our response will not stop there.
I am grateful to the Chief Fire Officers Association who are procuring 1,000 carbon monoxide detectors to distribute to households in affected areas and who may be using petrol or diesel pumps to rid their homes of flood water.
Supporting local firms in challenging times
The substantial flooding in the Somerset levels and elsewhere will take time to subside. But I realise that immediate works need to take place. The Government need to help affected businesses to get through this difficult period. The Prime Minister has announced that the Government will be offering relief from business rates for three months funded by central Government, and will publish more detail shortly.
HMRC will set up a new hotline for those who have been affected by flooding and could face difficulties in meeting their liabilities. HMRC will look to offer three months’ additional time to pay—including VAT, pay-as-you-earn and corporation tax.
Long-term preparedness for homes and business
The Prime Minister also announced that the Government will offer a £5,000 “repair and renew” grant for affected homeowners and businesses. This will support repairs which improve a property’s ability to withstand future flooding. The Government will consult with local authorities about how this can be delivered, and publish details on eligibility in due course.
I would like to express my continued appreciation to local authorities, the armed forces, fire and rescue authorities, and all the other members of local resilience forums including the voluntary and community sector and the tireless work of the Environment Agency’s on-the-ground staff and innumerable others for the work they are doing round the clock to respond to the impacts of the floods and protect affected communities.
I will provide further updates to the House in due course.
Local Government Finance (Rural Services)
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis)
The final local government finance settlement for 2014-15 was laid before the House on 5 February 2014. Local government needs to help pay off the deficit left by the Labour Government, while continuing to wield substantial total spending power, with an overall reduction of just 2.9% next year. The settlement marks the second year of local business rates retention and we have again tried to be fair to all parts of the country.
The settlement also confirmed £9.5 million for rural services delivery funding for the most rural local authorities to support them in transforming services and promoting efficiencies. During the settlement process it was apparent that concern remained over the fairness of the funding that rural councils receive. We have listened to these representations and have accepted that there is more that can be done. We are therefore providing a further £2 million to the most rural councils through a section 31 grant in 2014-15. This grant will be distributed on the same basis as that used to allocate the rural services delivery funding. The allocation of the grant is available at:
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/final-local-government-finance-settlement-england-2014-to-2015
All councils should now work to support local enterprise, using the local flexibilities and freedoms that we have put in place, to build more homes and back local jobs so that they can then use the rewards of growth to invest in local services and lower taxes.
Aircraft Carrier Alliance (Appointment)
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond)
On 6 November 2013, Official Report, column 251, I made a statement to the House on the renegotiation of the aircraft carrier contract and the wider decisions made by BAE Systems on the future of UK warship building capability.
In that statement, I announced changes to the management and governance of the Aircraft Carrier Alliance (ACA)—who are delivering the Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers—that would better reflect the collaborative approach to project management that the revised cost-sharing arrangements will induce and to improve the delivery of the programme.
Today the ACA, with the Ministry of Defence’s agreement, will announce the appointment of Sir Peter Gershon as the new, non-executive chairman of the alliance management board, the top-level management board of the ACA. This appointment is part of the management changes mentioned last November to bring greater focus to the delivery of these iconic ships.
Sir Peter brings a wealth of experience gained in large and complex international organisations and his appointment will help to increase the coherence and co-ordination between the MOD and Industry as the programme moves forward.
Votes A Annual Estimate 2014-15
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond)
The Ministry of Defence Votes A estimate 2014-15 will be laid before the House today as HC 1077. This outlines the maximum number of personnel to be maintained for each service in the armed forces during financial year 2014-15.
Votes A Excess Votes
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond)
The Ministry of Defence votes A Excess votes will be laid before the House today as HC 1075. This declares an excess of personnel for years 2007-08 to 2012-13, and requests an increase in the Votes A limits for these years.
Votes A Supplementary Votes 2013-14
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond)
The Ministry of Defence Votes A supplementary estimate 2013-14 will be laid before the House today as HC 1078. This outlines the increased maximum numbers of personnel to be maintained for service in the naval service, the reserve naval and marine forces, and the reserve land forces during financial year 2013-14.
Central African Republic
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds)
I wish to update the House on the situation in Central African Republic (CAR) and UK efforts to help resolve the conflict.
CAR witnessed increasing levels of violence throughout December 2013 and early January 2014 with reports of up to 1,000 civilian deaths in and around the capital Bangui. This was largely due to the growth in reprisal attacks by local self-defence (“anti-Balaka”) groups and rebels associated with the Seleka coalition who overthrew President Bozize in 2013. The rapid deployment of African Union (AU) and French troops has led to some improvements in security, and the nomination of Catherine Samba-Panza as President is a positive step in the transition to a stable Government. But there are still disturbing levels of violence. The UN estimates that 838,000 people remain displaced across the country.
The UK sees improved security and humanitarian access, and a strong and inclusive political process, as key priorities. The Department for International Development has pledged a total of £15 million in humanitarian aid, making the UK one of the largest bilateral donors to CAR. UK support will allow the Red Cross, UN and international aid agencies to step up their relief programmes, providing emergency health care, clean water and logistical support to hundreds of thousands of people, including vulnerable women and children.
In response to the worsening security situation, the Government co-sponsored UN Security Council resolution (UNSCR) 2127 on 5 December 2013 which mandated the deployment of the Africa-led international support mission to CAR (MISCA). Improved security remains the vital first component to any sustained improvement to conditions in CAR. The UK is providing bilateral support to the AU through the provision of £2 million to the AU to cover immediate MISCA shortfalls, including food, fuel and water. We also make a contribution, through EU funds, to the mission’s logistical support. I have continued to demonstrate the UK’s political support for MISCA including in discussions with a number of African Foreign Ministers during the AU summit in January 2014; the Foreign Secretary has done likewise, including with his European Union counterparts.
We continue to engage closely with France on the Central African Republic with in-depth discussions during the UK-France summit on 31 January 2014. The Prime Minister has offered further logistical support to France. This support includes logistical lifts and air-to-air refuelling and the provision of subject matter expertise on remotely piloted air systems.
We have also worked with EU partners to ensure that the EU continues to provide support for MISCA where possible. The EU is providing €50 million to MISCA in 2014, and on 10 February 2014 adopted a Council decision to establish a military operation to help to achieve a secure environment in the Bangui area. The Government believe that such an operation could make a real difference to the security situation on the ground. Operational planning continues, and the UK is providing a military officer to assist with this. The UK will not, however, be providing combat troops. A Council decision to launch the operation is still required and remains subject to UK parliamentary scrutiny.
In November 2013, a UN Secretary-General report recognised that conditions in CAR were not right for the deployment of a UN peacekeeping mission. We recognise that once the political and security conditions allow, there may be a need for MISCA to transform into a United Nations peacekeeping operation. The Government therefore support the UN’s contingency preparations and planning.
The UK co-sponsored a further UNSCR (2134) on CAR which was adopted on 28 January 2014. This authorised the EU military operation in line with the EU Foreign Affairs Council conclusions of 20 January 2014, set up a sanctions regime to target political spoilers, and strengthened the mandate of the UN’s integrated peacebuilding office in CAR: BINUCA.
We believe that BINUCA will have a pivotal role to play in energising and co-ordinating the ongoing political process alongside the Economic Community of Central African States and the AU. Progress on the political front will be vital if peace and security are to return to CAR in the long term. The Government will continue to engage closely with their international partners on the situation in the Central African Republic. Our response on the security, political, and humanitarian sides will all remain under review, and we will look for opportunities where the UK can add value to the international response.
Gifting of Equipment (Lebanese Armed Forces)
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
Contagion from the worsening crisis in Syria is having a direct effect on its neighbours, particularly in areas adjacent to Lebanon’s north and north-east border. There are daily incidents of violence between non-state armed actors and the Syrian armed forces, and by non-state actors supporting both the Syrian regime (Hezbollah), and the opposition (Free Syrian Army), culminating in near border and cross-border direct and indirect fire.
The UK is committed to Lebanon’s stability and supporting the Lebanese armed forces (LAF) to minimise contagion from the Syrian conflict.
As part of this approach, the UK is assisting the land border regiments of the Lebanese armed forces to develop effective and sustainable land border management capabilities which operate in line with agreed international human rights standards.
On 27 June 2013 I laid a departmental minute before the House setting out our intention to gift a package of UK assistance worth £10 million to increase the capacity of the two LAF land border regiments to fulfil their border management role, in support of broader LAF aims to disrupt and hinder the movement and operations of armed actors party to the conflict in Syria, and interdict elements who are seeking to destabilise Lebanon, and who may subsequently pose a threat to UK interests.
During the course of project implementation, the need for additional items and manpower has been identified. These needs are critical to maximising the impact of the project and ensuring long-term sustainability of the capabilities being provided. The identification of these additional critical requirements was only possible once the project team had deployed, trust established, and the full extent of the LAF’s needs exposed to the subject matter experts.
The departmental minute laid today sets out in detail our proposal to gift an additional £1.984 million of protection, mobility, observation and communications equipment to the land border regiments of the Lebanese armed forces. The cost of the proposed gift will be met by the Government’s conflict pool programme.
The table below illustrates the contents of the gift.
Capability | Source | Quantity | |
|---|---|---|---|
1 | Personal protective equipment, including gloves, camouflage clothing and protective glasses. | UK purchase | £254,495 |
2 | Two Land Rovers and additional equipment for the Land Rovers already provided to enable them to operate in difficult terrain. | UK purchase | £478,349.52 |
3 | Additional training tower and some technical equipment to facilitate training. | UK purchase | £377,000 |
4 | Radio equipment to allow the land border regiments to link back to LAF HQ in Beirut. | UK purchase | £874,451.20 |
Total | £1,984,295.72 |
Alongside the gift, the UK is expanding its existing package of training and mentoring with additional expertise worth £251,999. The equipment and training aims to enhance the capacity of the land border regiments of the Lebanese armed forces to observe, identify, deter and stop the illegal movement of weapons and personnel across the north and north-east land border with Syria.
The proposed gift has been assessed against the consolidated EU and national arms export licensing criteria. The proposed gift has been scrutinised and approved by a senior, cross-Whitehall conflict pool approval board, which has confirmed that it fits with the Government’s strategic and delivery objectives. Foreign and Commonwealth Office officials also assessed the project for human rights risks, using the overseas security and justice assistance guidelines established by the Foreign Secretary in 2011. They concluded that the risk of human rights violations arising from the project’s delivery could be successfully mitigated.
The Treasury has approved the proposal in principle. If, during the period of 14 parliamentary sitting days beginning on the date on which the minute was laid before the House of Commons, a Member signifies an objection by giving notice of a parliamentary question or a motion relating to the minute, or by otherwise raising the matter in the House, final approval of the gift will be withheld pending an examination of the objection.
Cyprus
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
I would like to provide the House with an update on efforts to reach a comprehensive settlement in Cyprus.
On 11 February, in their capacity as the leaders of the Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot communities respectively, President Anastasiades and Dr Eroglu met under United Nations auspices. The joint declaration they adopted is an important step forward, and provides a real opportunity to secure a lasting and comprehensive settlement. That document makes clear the two leaders’ determination to resume structured negotiations leading to a united Cyprus, and their intention to reach a settlement as soon as possible. The declaration includes a range of agreements both on the conduct of talks and on the shape of the future federation.
The joint declaration provides a very good basis for productive talks. The achievement of an agreed set of parameters gives clear direction to the negotiators and the leaders over the coming months. Many of the broad principles for a united Cyprus have now been agreed, and I trust that the parties will now negotiate in good faith on that basis until a final settlement has been reached.
Detailed negotiations will now begin in earnest. With continued co-operation and pragmatism, and a sustained commitment to the vision of a reunified Cyprus, the two communities will be able to agree a solution which they will approve by referendum.
The United Kingdom fully supports the Cypriots as they work for a solution to the division which has affected their island for too long. A settlement will pay dividends for them, for the region, and for Europe. We have been active, in close co-ordination with the Americans and our other partners, in helping to achieve this breakthrough. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe has had contact with leaders of both communities, including during his recent visit to Cyprus. The Prime Minister was pleased to welcome President Anastasiades to London last month. I have had useful discussions with the President about the need to achieve a settlement, most recently last week. I have also regularly discussed Cyprus with the Turkish Foreign Minister, including twice in the past week. Our diplomatic network has of course been actively engaged in support of a settlement.
I would like to assure the House that our support, as a long-standing friend of Cyprus, will continue as talks progress. I will keep the House informed of significant developments.
Supplementary Estimate 2013-14
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
Subject to parliamentary approval of any supplementary estimate, the Northern Ireland Executive departmental expenditure limit (DEL), net of depreciation, is increased by £186,539,000 from £10,630,679,000 to £10,817,218,000.
Within the total DEL change, the impact on resources and capital is set out in the following table:
Summary | Opening Position | Changes | Current Position |
|---|---|---|---|
Fiscal RDEL | 9,614.803 | 128.221 | 9,743.024 |
Ring-fenced student loans in RDEL | 84.448 | 22.100 | 106.548 |
Ring-fenced depreciation in RDEL | 373.779 | - | 373.779 |
Capital DEL | 931,428 | 36.218 | 967.646 |
Total DEL (RDEL + CDEL - Depreciation | 10,630.679 | 186.539 | 10,817.218 |
The change in the NIE DEL are set out in the table below:
Fiscal RDEL | £’M |
|---|---|
Provision at Main Estimates | 9,614.803 |
Changes in Supplementary Estimate | |
Devolved Administration Budget Exchange | 31.651 |
Budget Transfer to NIO: Stormont House | -0.046 |
Budget Transfer from NIO: G8 | 0.514 |
Budget Transfer from CO: Law Commission | 0.030 |
Reserve Claim: G8 | 26.000 |
Reserve Claim: Policing and Justice | 71.285 |
Adjustment following devolution of APD | -2.045 |
Coastal Communities Fund | 0.500 |
Bamett Consequentials (AS 2013) Rail Fares | 0.332 |
Sub total | 128.221 |
Revised Provision (Supplementary Estimate) | 9,743.024 |
Ring Fenced Student Loans in RDEL | |
Provision at Main Estimates | 84.448 |
Changes in Supplementary Estimate | |
Reserve Claim: Student Loans | 22.100 |
Revised Provision (Supplementary Estimate) | 106.548 |
Ring Fenced Depreciation in RDEL | |
Provision at Main Estimates | 373.779 |
no further changes | |
Capital DEL | |
Provision at Main Estimates | 931.428 |
Changes in Supplementary Estimate | |
Devolved Administration Budget Exchange | 12.576 |
Reserve Claim: Policing and Justice | 17.862 |
Budget Transfer from DCMS: Broadband | 5.780 |
Subtotal | 36.218 |
Revised Provision (Supplementary Estimate) | 967.646 |
The effect of the above changes to DEL and AME is to increase the cash grant payable to the Northern Ireland Consolidated Fund by £404,500,000 to £14,875,500,000.
Supplementary Estimate 2013-14
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Carmichael)
Subject to parliamentary approval of the necessary supplementary estimate the Scottish Government’s DEL net of depreciation and impairments will be increased by £218,114,000 from £28,304,169,000 to £28,522,283,000. Within the total DEL change, the impact on resources and capital is set out in the following table:
£'000 Change New DEL | Fiscal RDEL -63,888 25,608,103 | Ring-fenced Depreciation within |
|---|---|---|
Fiscal RDEL | -63,888 | 25,608,103 |
Ring-fenced depreciation within RDEL | 3,615 | 640,882 |
Ring-fenced student loans within RDEL | 50,741 | 184,687 |
Capital DEL | 282,002 | 2,914,180 |
Resource DEL + Capital DEL | 272,470 | 29,347,852 |
Les depreciation and impairments | -54,356 | -825,569 |
Total DEL | 218,114 | 28,522,283 |
The increase in the Scotland DEL takes account of the following adjustments to the Scottish Government provision amounting to increases of £272,470,000:
Devolved Administration Budget Exchange carry forward of £186.$28,000 (£150,581,000) resource, £30,391,000 capital and £5,356,000 ring fenced depreciation);
Increase of £993,000 for Autumn 2013 Statement Bamett consequentials (Capital)];
Transfer from the Department for Culture Media and Sport Energy and Climate Change of £300,000 in respect of the Edinburgh Pilot Project (Capital);
Transfer from the Department for Culture Media and Sport Energy and Climate Change of £7,350,000 in respect of Urban Broadband (Capital);
Transfer from the Department of Energy and Climate Change of £13,961,000 in respect of the Green Deal (Capital);
Transfer from the Ministry of Justice of £29,000 for Administrative Justice Tribunal Council (Resource);
A reserve claim of £2,409,000 in respect of the G8 Policing Costs (Resource);
A reserve claim of £2,100,000 in respect of the Coastal Communities Fund (Resource);
A reserve claim of £10,000,000 in respect of the Utilisation of Scottish Cultural Collections revenue (Non Cash Capital);
An increase in the Student Loan Subsidy impairments of £49,000,000 (Ring Fenced); and
A switch of £220,000,000 from resource DEL to capital DEL.
The overall effect of these changes is to increase the grant to the Scottish Consolidated Fund by £122,525,000.
Supplementary Estimate 2013-14
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
Subject to parliamentary approval of any necessary supplementary estimate, the Welsh Government’s departmental expenditure limit (DEL) net of ring-fenced depreciation and impairments will be increased by £105,082,000 from £15,009,464,000 to £15,114,546,000.
The following changes have been made to the Welsh Government’s departmental expenditure limit:
Devolved Administration Budget Exchange addition of £84,181,000 (£71,900,000 resource, £11,081,000 ring-fenced depreciation and £1,200,000 capital);
Addition of £ 1,450,000 in respect of the Coastal Communities Fund (resource);
A claim on the Reserve of £326,450,000 for Student Loans impairments;
Addition of £575,000 following the 2013 Autumn Statement - Capping Rail Fares at RPI (resource);
A budget transfer from the Department for Education of £22,123,000 for Teacher Training (£168,000 resource, £21,955,000 capital);
A budget transfer from the Ministry of Justice in respect of the Administrative Justice Tribunal Council of £42,000 (resource); and
A budget transfer from DCMS in respect of Broadband UK of £7,792,000 (capital).
Within the total departmental expenditure limit (DEL) changes, the impact is set out in the following tables:
£m Nominal | Main Estimate | Changes | Supplementary Estimate |
|---|---|---|---|
Resource DEL (RDEL) | 14,188 | 411 | 14,599 |
Of which: | |||
RDEL excluding depreciation | 13,705 | 74 | 13,779 |
Depreciation ring-fence in RDEL | 389 | 11 | 400 |
Student loans ring-fence in RDEL | 94 | 326 | 420 |
Capital DEL | 1,304 | 31 | 1,335 |
RDEL | Ring-fenced Depreciation | Ring-fenced Student Loans | Capital DEL | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
£m | £m | £m | £m | |
2010 Spending Review | 13,482.703 | 388.726 | 93.615 | 1,064.300 |
Autumn Statement 2011:Barnett Consequentials | 1.876 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 81.030 |
Autumn Statement 2012: Barnet Consequentials | 16.651 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 92.275 |
Budget 2011: Barnett Consequentials | 4.161 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 |
Budget 2012: Barnett Consequentials | -0.185 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 3.283 |
Budget 2013: Barnett Consequentials | -26.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 63.216 |
Budget Cover Transfer from DWP (Social Fund) | 12.363 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 |
Budget Cover Transfer to Dept Health | -0.609 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 |
Budget cover transfers | -0.986 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 |
DEL reduction for VAT REFUNDS (Natural Resources Wales) | -1.232 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 |
Firefighters pensions | -0.328 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 |
Machinery of Gov’t change: Animal Health | 16.834 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 |
Machinero of Gov’t change: council Tax Benefit | 222.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 |
Reinstate TIF Consequentials | 1.152 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 |
Reversal of Autumn Statement 2012 Business Rates Barnett Consequentials | -23.040 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 |
Opening Position for 2013-14 Estimate | 13,705.360 | 388.726 | 93.615 | 1,304.104 |
Budget Exchange | 71.900 | 11.081 | 0.000 | 1.200 |
Coastal Communities Fund | 1.450 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 |
Reverse Claim: Student Loans | 0.000 | 0.000 | 326.540 | 0.000 |
Autumn Statement 2013: Barnett Consequentials | 0.575 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 |
Budget Transfer from DFE: Teacher Training | 0.168 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 21.955 |
Budget Transfer from MOJ: Administrative Justice Tribunal Council | 0.042 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 |
Budget Transfer from DCMS Broadband | 0 | 0 | 0 | 7.792 |
Current Control Totals (Supplementary Estimate 2013-14) | 13,779.495 | 399.807 | 420.065 | 1,335.051 |
Opening Position | Changes | Current Position | ||
Fiscal RDEL | 13,705.360 | 74.135 | 13,779.4954 | |
Ring-fenced depreciation in RDEL | 388.726 | 11.081 | 399.807 | |
Ring-fenced student loans in RDEL | 93.615 | 326.450 | 420.065 | |
Capital DEL | 1,304.104 | 30.947 | 1,335.051 | |
Total DEL (RDEL including ring-fences + CDEL) | 15,491.805 | 442.613 | 15,934.418 | |
Total DEL (RDEL excluding depreciation/impairments + CEDL) | 15,009.464 | 105.082 | 15,114.546 |
The net effect of these and other changes is to increase the grant payable to the Welsh Consolidated Fund by £293,207,000 from £13,189,448,000 to £13,482,655,000. Full details are set out in the table below.
Main Estimate | Changes | Supplementary Estimate | |
|---|---|---|---|
£m | £m | £M | |
Expenditure Classified as DEL | 15,491,805 | 442,613 | 15,934,418 |
Expenditure Classified as AME | 317,132 | 85,751 | 402,883 |
Total Managed Expenditure | 15,808,937 | 528,364 | 16,337,301 |
Less: | |||
Non-voted expenditure: | |||
LA Credit Approvals | 88,800 | 0 | 88,800 |
Other non-voted | 6,078 | 0 | 6,078 |
Resource Ring-fenced Cash | 482,341 | 327,603 | 809,944 |
AME non-cash | 102,146 | 78,157 | 180,303 |
Total non-voted TME | 679,365 | 405,760 | 1,085,125 |
Total voted TME | 15,129,572 | 122,604 | 15,252,176 |
Voted receipts | |||
Contributions from the National Insurance Fund | -996,549 | 48,853 | -947,696 |
NDR Receipts | -944,000 | -76,000 | -1,020,000 |
Total | -1,940,549 | -27,247 | -1,967,696 |
Timing Adjustments | |||
Increase/Decrease in Debtors and Creditors | 325 | 197,750 | 198,075 |
Use of Provisions | 100 | 0 | 100 |
Total Grant to Welsh Consolidated Fund | 13,189,448 | 293,207 | 13,482,655 |
Workplace Pensions
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)
Integral to the single-tier reforms is the closure of the state second pension. Contracting out of the state second pension for defined benefit schemes—giving up entitlement in return for a broadly similar occupational pension and payment of lower national insurance (NI) rate for employer and employee—will therefore come to an end. All employees will pay the same rate of national insurance and become entitled to state pension in the same way. The state pension system will be significantly simpler as a result.
The Government’s objectives for managing the end of contracting out are to minimise the impacts on employers, schemes and individuals, ensuring that the administrative processes of ending contracting out are as smooth and as simple as possible; to ensure amounts built up in schemes to 2016 continue to be paid; and to ensure that the sustainability of defined benefit pension schemes is not undermined. The Government are allowing private sector employers who face paying an increased rate of national insurance to make limited changes to their pension scheme rules to recoup some or all of the additional costs they face subject to the will of Parliament.
There is a small group of individuals (approximately 60,000) employed in some formerly nationalised industries (rail including Transport for London, electricity, coal, nuclear waste and decommissioning), where the employers and trustees are limited in their ability to change scheme rules by legislation made during privatisation.
On 18 January 2013, the Government published a public consultation “Abolition of contracting out—consultation on a statutory override for Protected Persons Regulations”. The consultation invited views from stakeholders as to whether or not these employers should be permitted to use the statutory override to change their pension scheme rules for employees covered by the protected persons legislation. The consultation ran until 14 March 2013 and attracted 145 responses.
We had to consider the best and fairest course of action in an area where the arguments are both finely balanced and highly polarised. The Government have decided that it should honour the promises that were made at the time of privatisation and which, in many cases, have been affirmed by Government Ministers subsequently. The Government think it is reasonable that issues arising from the end of contracting out for this small number of workers should be resolved through negotiation. Therefore the Government propose that employers should not be allowed to use the statutory override to alter their pension schemes in relation to members with protected person status.
We intend to table an amendment to the Pensions Bill for debate at Lords Report stage to ensure the statutory override cannot be applied in respect of scheme members with protected person status.
The full response and the related impact assessment will be published later today and these will be available on: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/possible -statutory-override-for-protected-persons-regulations.
I will place a copy of the Government response and the impact assessment in the Library of the House of Commons.
House of Lords
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Schools: Arts Subjects
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Earl of Clancarty
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what encouragement they will give to the take-up of arts subjects in secondary schools; and whether that will include a review of the current school performance discount codes.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Nash) (Con)
My Lords, the Government believe strongly that every child should experience a high-quality arts education. Music and art and design are statutory subjects for key stages 1 to 3 in the new national curriculum. The arts remain an entitlement area at key stage 4. From 2016, our new Progress 8 accountability measure provides schools with more incentive to enter pupils for arts subjects. Up to three can be included. Discount codes for drama and dance are being reviewed.
The Earl of Clancarty (CB)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply and welcome the review of the discount codes. In the light of the figures recently released by DCMS on the value of the arts and creative industries to the economy, will the DfE seek to reverse the continuing trend towards fewer arts GCSEs being studied within schools? Will the Government review the discount codes which group together many disparate GCSE art and design subjects so that they count as one subject only towards performance tables, biasing the tables and, indeed, schools against the arts?
Lord Nash
I share the noble Earl’s passion for the arts and know that it is an area in which he has great experience. I am happy to report that key stage 4 entries for arts subjects have not significantly changed since 2007 and currently account for 9% of all key stage 4 entries. I assure the noble Earl that we take discounting very seriously. We are looking specifically at how it works as it is so important that schools are not incentivised to offer pupils a narrow curriculum, although it is equally important that pupils take subjects that are distinct from each other. We are reviewing how the discount codes for dance and drama work, and we are also considering whether to allow appeals against the discounting decisions that have been made in other areas if there is evidence to support reconsidering our initial consideration.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend accept that not only does studying the arts enrich the lives of those who study them but that there are marvellous careers in the arts and crafts and we ought to do more to encourage young people to consider such careers?
Lord Nash
I entirely agree with my noble friend. It is important that we give all our students that core cultural capital that Diane Abbott has acknowledged in the other place as being essential, particularly for underprivileged children, to enable them to get on in life and that we encourage more careers. We now have a number of university technical colleges focused on the creative industries.
Lord Storey (LD)
My Lords, the Minister will be aware that many young people develop their passion and talent for the arts by attending Saturday clubs, such as the Liverpool Institute for Performing Arts 4:19 Part-Time Academy. Parents pay for this privilege. How can we ensure that children, particularly from disadvantaged backgrounds, can also access those Saturday club resources?
Lord Nash
I know of the contribution in this area of the Liverpool Institute for Performing Arts, which the noble Lord knows well and whose lead patron is Sir Paul McCartney. Indeed, we have approved it to open a primary free school, which will use the creative and performing arts to encourage a lasting enthusiasm for learning. Pupil premium funding is allocated to schools to decide how to improve the outcome for disadvantaged pupils. Ofsted now inspects against this and it will be very difficult for schools to get an outstanding rating if they are not making good progress for their pupil premium pupils. All schools have to publish online how they are spending their pupil premium money and its impact.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)
My Lords, may I recommend to the noble Lord that he looks at a report from Professor Ken Robinson that was co-commissioned by his department, as it then was, and the DCMS more than a decade ago? In the report Professor Robinson explained in great detail the value of creative education, broadly, both educationally and socially. Can the noble Lord tell the House how relations between his department and the DCMS currently are, because I am afraid that Professor Robinson’s report fell slightly foul of a lack of co-ordination between them at the time? Can he say whether his department is well acquainted with the wide range of educational opportunities provided by arts organisations to enhance the curriculum in the way that he seeks?
Lord Nash
The noble Baroness raises a good point. I am not aware of the report, but she is of course vastly experienced in this area as a former chief executive of the Royal Opera House and principal of the Guildhall School of Music and Drama. Cross-departmental working is never a smooth affair. We had some success with my noble friend in the Children and Families Bill, and I would be very interested to look into this in more detail. The noble Baroness is absolutely right that all schools should engage with wider organisations. My own school engages with a wide range of charities and organisations to enhance our arts and drama offer.
Baroness Deech (CB)
Is the Minister satisfied with early education in classical music at schools, the availability of instruments and whether we begin to compare with Venezuela’s El Sistema?
Lord Nash
Music is very important for young people at primary school and there are some very good charities operating in this area, such as London Music Masters. I was inspired to see a KIPP school in Harlem in New York, where every pupil is in the orchestra. That is certainly something that all primary schools should focus on.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)
My Lords, is the Minister aware of the Sistema project in the Raploch, in Stirling, Scotland, established by Richard Holloway following the success in Venezuela? Would he or one of the other Ministers be willing to visit that project and see the incredible impact that it has had on children in one of the most deprived community schemes in Britain, who are all now training to learn an instrument and playing in the most incredible concerts—entertaining not just locals but nationally through television as well?
Lord Ramsbotham (CB)
Can the Minister confirm that arts subjects will be on the syllabus of the fortified secondary schools that the Ministry of Justice is establishing for the custody of young offenders?
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville (Con)
My Lords, pursuant to the ante-penultimate question, my noble friend’s department published an excellent analysis of 14 schools’ arts departments about 30 years ago—the 14 presumably being chosen to include an independent school. Has such an analysis been mounted during the past 30 years and, if not, would my noble friend consider one?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, is the Minister aware of just how disillusioned the arts community is with the Government’s education reforms? Certainly, in all the meetings that I have with the arts community, it consistently sends out a message about how it feels that arts education in schools is marginalised and devalued. I think that the Secretary of State bears some responsibility for this. Going back to the noble Earl’s original Question, when is the Secretary of State going to champion the arts, speak up for them and recognise the massive contribution that they make to our economy and society?
Lord Nash
I am extremely glad that the noble Baroness asked me that question. Under Labour, the number of pupils entering key academic subjects fell from 49.9% to 22%, as a number of extremely dotty subjects such as the level 2 diploma in fish husbandry—which accounted for four GCSE equivalents—were perpetrated into the system to give the appearance of success. Noble Lords will be delighted to hear that under this Government we are back to pre-Labour levels for arts subjects. We are determined to ensure that all pupils get the core cultural capital they need and study a broad sweep of poetry and writing. It is not possible to accuse my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for not being absolutely passionate about arts subjects.
Abortion
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Knight of Collingtree
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they intend to take in the light of recent analysis of the ratio of boys and girls in United Kingdom families suggesting that sex-selective abortion is taking place.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con)
My Lords, it cannot be concluded from the recent analysis in the Independent newspaper that sex-selective abortions are taking place. We are absolutely clear that abortion on the grounds of gender alone is against the law and completely unacceptable.
Baroness Knight of Collingtree (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend recall that when I last asked a Question on this matter in October, the House was informed that it was impossible to prosecute doctors known to be aborting on gender grounds because the evidence was not strong enough? However, has the Minister noted the findings of the national census of 2011, which show that between 1,400 and 4,700 fewer girls have been born recently? This, it was said, can be explained only by the fact that termination of girl babies is going on, even though my noble friend has said this morning and NHS spokesmen have warned that such operations are,
“against the law and completely unacceptable”.
When are the Government going to stop this practice, and what are the implications if they do not do so?
Earl Howe
My Lords, the analysis recently reported in the Independent newspaper was based on census data, as my noble friend pointed out, for households with usually-resident dependent children. The gender balance of dependent children in these households is affected by a number of events that occur after birth, such as the age at which dependent children leave the parental home. As there are a number of alternative explanations for these observations, it cannot be concluded from the Independent’s analysis that sex-selective abortions are taking place. The best available data on which to base gender ratio analysis continue to be births data, which were the basis on which we did our analysis last year. I can tell my noble friend that that analysis will be updated on an annual basis when new data are available.
Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)
My Lords, gender-selection abortions are an extreme form of gender discrimination. Sadly, it is all too prevalent in sub-continent communities. The Sikh guru, Guru Nanak, taught from day one the total equality of women; they can join in and lead any part of the Sikh service. Unfortunately, culture sometimes gets the better of religion; even in the Sikh community, that sort of discrimination can take place. Will the Minister ensure that funding given to sub-continent communities is conditional—indeed, is predicated—on promoting gender equality and respect for women because, at the moment, it often feels as if it is given to those who shout the loudest?
Earl Howe
My Lords, the provisions of the Equality Act 2010 must be adhered to by all who provide a public service. Any specific allegations about gender-selective abortions being undertaken will be reported to the police. Abortion on the grounds of gender alone is illegal, as I have said. The Abortion Act is very clear on that point.
Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)
Have my noble friend and his department had any discussions with the General Medical Council on this matter? It needs to be made publicly clear that, as he said, whatever happens in other countries, this practice is not acceptable in this country.
The Lord Bishop of St Albans
My Lords, there is an opportunity coming up where this can be underlined. At the moment, the procedures for the approval of independent sector places for the termination of pregnancy are being revised. Will Her Majesty’s Government undertake to ensure that they spell out clearly and unequivocally that termination on grounds of gender alone is illegal and that an appeal on gender alone is insufficient to satisfy the mental health criteria of the Abortion Act?
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
The Minister has explained the issue extremely clearly. When the next tranche of research on live births comes through, will the Government undertake to dig deep into it to ensure that illegal sex-selective abortions are not taking place? Secondly, there is a statement in today’s Daily Telegraph about 36 abortion centres that are giving unreliable and misleading advice to women who wish to discuss terminations—for example, by telling them that if they have a termination they may get breast cancer. I know that the Department of Health has issued guidelines on this but I would like to know what the Government intend to do about it.
Earl Howe
On the noble Baroness’s first question, the detailed analysis that we did last year was quality-assured by the methodology team at the Office for National Statistics. I can tell her that the team will quality-assure the future analysis of data each year. On the story in the Daily Telegraph, patients should be able to expect impartial advice from the NHS. CCGs and NHS providers must account for the counselling services that they recommend. Guidance on the provision of non-judgmental counselling was included in the Government’s framework for sexual health improvement, published in March last year.
Overseas Aid
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Rawlings
To ask Her Majesty’s Government by how much United Kingdom overseas aid will be increased in 2014-15 as a result of the growth in gross domestic product and the 0.7% target for overseas aid.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, at the spending reviews in October 2010 and June 2013, the UK Government provided sufficient funding to deliver 0.7% of gross national income as official development assistance—ODA—in 2013, 2014 and 2015. The Government will continue to keep GNI movements under review to ensure that sufficient resources are available to deliver the 0.7% target.
Baroness Rawlings (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her Answer and commend the Secretary of State and her predecessor, my right honourable friend Mr Andrew Mitchell, on putting economic development as a DfID core priority. How much more money will we give this year through the DfID budget, given the current rate of GDP growth? Can the Minister tell your Lordships the actual sum that we give over and above the DfID 0.7% once we have included the registered official development aid—that is, money—from other government departments, such as the MoD’s expenditure on training the Afghan police?
Baroness Northover
ODA is grouped together. As my noble friend recognises, it is not all spent through DfID, although the vast majority of it is. A number of other government departments contribute to deliver some of this—for example, DECC contributes on climate change—although, as I said, most goes through DfID. In the 2013 Budget, the Treasury projected that £11.6 billion would need to be spent to achieve the target of 0.7%. At the Autumn Statement 2013, that figure rose to £11.9 billion—an increase of about £300 million.
Lord Harrison (Lab)
My Lords, will the noble Baroness please ensure that the Government continue rightly to resist the calls to divert overseas aid money to tackle the floods? Will she also take the opportunity to clarify from where the money to help flood victims in the south will come, given the confusion wrought by the recent words of the Prime Minister?
Baroness Northover
I thought that the Prime Minister was extremely clear in his support. I can also point out that we have spent £3.1 billion on flood management and protection. However, I think that the noble Lord is right and I welcome the cross-party support. This is a false choice. I received an e-mail this morning from Justin Forsyth of Save the Children. He said:
“To raid this money that literally saves millions of lives would be immoral”.
Surely he is right.
Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)
My Lords, is it possible to press the authorities which decide the ODA definitions to provide a wider definition that would allow, for instance, the expenditure by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in support of the BBC World Service—or however it is to be supported in the future—to be included in the overall figure? Can these definitions be changed to extend in that direction?
Baroness Northover
The ODA definition, as the noble Lord probably knows, is relatively wide. To seek to change that requires international agreement, and there are risks to that. That said, we fully recognise the contribution that the BBC World Service makes.
Lord Barnett (Lab)
My Lords, now that the Prime Minister has made crystal clear that money for flood victims is not a problem, can the noble Baroness confirm that her department is not considering transferring any money at all from her department’s funds to help in this instance?
Baroness Northover
Maybe I might answer by saying what we have done in Pakistan in terms of floods. The UK committed £134 million overall in aid for the 2010-11 Pakistan floods. The floods left 20 million people in need of serious assistance, including 2,000 dead; destroyed 1.7 million homes; and affected an area four times the size of Britain.
The Lord Bishop of Worcester
My Lords, the Minister has already referred to Pakistan. I was going to draw her attention to the Bangladeshi floods of 1998, which resulted in the loss of 30 million homes and cost the economy of that country 4.8% of its GDP. Does the Minister agree that the spending of money generally on countries which are affected terribly by climate change is both in our national interest and a moral responsibility?
Baroness Northover
The right reverend Prelate sums it up extremely effectively.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
When do the Government plan to fulfil their promise to legislate to put into law the UK’s commitment for 0.7% of GNI to be given in overseas aid? Surely, as the noble Baroness has already said, with cross-party support, there is no reason not to do this. Or is the fear of another Tory Back-Bench rebellion the real reason?
Baroness Northover
The key issue is whether we have made this commitment. We, this Government, have, and it is the first time that any G8 or G20 country has done so. I realise that a number of Scandinavian countries are ahead of us, but we are ahead of the previous Government, who, as the noble Lord knows, sank down to 0.3% in what they gave. In fact, before that, in 1999, it was just above 0.2%—a drop from the previous Government.
Lord Dholakia (LD)
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend and the Department for International Development on transforming the lives of many poor people by encouraging the development of small businesses at local level and creating more accessible markets, particularly in Tanzania. Can my noble friend look at how we could further reduce poverty for those involved in agriculture? An example of this is the Mtwara region in Tanzania where there is access to 40 million hectares of arable land, of which only 25% is used.
Baroness Northover
That is an example of the work that DfID is undertaking as it seeks to transform agriculture and therefore the livelihoods of people in some of the poorest countries in the world. In Tanzania, DfID is currently working with the Aga Khan Development Network to try to increase productivity levels of farmers growing rice and sesame.
Female Genital Mutilation
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Tonge
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they have made in eliminating female genital mutilation in the United Kingdom and abroad.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, last week, to mark the International Day of Zero Tolerance to Female Genital Mutilation, Ministers met with charities and stakeholders and announced a range of measures to combat this harmful practice both in the UK and internationally. These measures include the appointment of a consortium of leading anti-FGM campaigners to deliver a global campaign to end FGM. Ministers from across government have also signed a declaration to demonstrate the Government’s commitment to tackle this practice both in the UK and abroad.
Baroness Tonge (Ind LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply and I commend the Government on their efforts over the past year. I also particularly commend the work of Keir Starmer, the previous Director of Public Prosecutions. Does the Minister realise that it is now more than 10 years since the all-party parliamentary group that I chair produced a report on female genital mutilation, but that during that time, despite many Members of this House and the other place raising the issue, very little progress has been made? Can he explain why over those years there have been many prosecutions in France and other European countries for this horrible, painful and quite disgraceful practice, which is an abuse of young girls, while in this country we have had no prosecutions at all?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I pay tribute to the noble Baroness for her work in this respect, and indeed to many noble Lords across the Chamber. Taking her last question first, I am sure that she and many noble Lords will be aware that in France there is a prescriptive nature to the examination of young girls across the board. At the moment that is not something which the Government are considering initiating here. That said, as the noble Baroness herself has acknowledged, since 2011 there has been a range of initiatives and positive steps. Perhaps I may mention a few. In November 2012, the document A Statement Opposing Female Genital Mutilation was launched, which sets out the potential criminal penalties that can be used against those who allow FGM to take place. In the same month the Crown Prosecution Service launched an action plan for prosecuting cases of FGM. From the international perspective, in March 2013 DfID announced a £35 million programme on FGM, and in June last year the NSPCC, in partnership with the Home Office, launched a dedicated FGM helpline. The Government believe, as do all noble Lords, that this is a heinous practice; it is a crime which has to be tackled both outside and within the community, and they are working with partners to ensure that that happens.
Baroness Rendell of Babergh (Lab)
My Lords, far from being almost eliminated, the practice of FGM continues and, indeed, is on the increase. The cause is largely because more communities are coming into the country and bringing this culture with them. Enormous publicity has been given to FGM lately, which one is glad to see, but that does not deal with the basic problem. Does the Minister agree that the best thing would be a successful prosecution, which might have a deterrent effect? We understand that many of the people who perpetrate FGM do not know what the law is, cannot read about it, and believe that what they are doing is good.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Again, I pay tribute to the work that the noble Baroness does in this field. I agree with her: prosecutions have not taken place. This law was on the statute book in its original form almost 30 years ago and nothing has happened. The CPS is currently reviewing four existing cases plus six new cases to see whether an evidence base is there to ensure that prosecutions take place. Coupled with that, it is important that we raise awareness of this offence out there within communities. There is a 14-year sentence for anyone convicted of this offence, and we are working with communities to ensure that that message gets out very clearly.
Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)
While I appreciate that a whole range of initiatives is relevant in this matter, is there any reason why in relation to medical personnel and teachers there should not be the same absolute requirement and obligation to detect and report, as there is in the case of abuse of children?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Again, I agree with the noble Lord. As he may be aware, on 6 February my honourable friend Jane Ellison announced that it is now incumbent on every NHS trust to report and share evidence of such practice. I also know that my right honourable friend Michael Gove, the Education Secretary, is meeting campaigners in this regard to discuss whether communications across schools should perhaps be looked at and revised, but that will be subject to the outcome of that meeting.
Baroness Walmsley (LD)
Is my noble friend aware of reports that people are bringing their daughters to this country from other European countries where the measures to prevent this practice are more effective than they are here? Are the Government monitoring this situation? Is there any real evidence that that is happening?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I am not aware of the specific reports that my noble friend points to, but, of course, if she would share them with me, I will bring them to the attention of the appropriate department.
Buckinghamshire County Council (Filming on Highways) [HL]
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Chairman of Committees (Lord Sewel)
My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Town and Country Planning (Fees for Applications, Deemed Applications, Requests and Site Visits) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2014
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 18 December 2013 be approved.
Relevant documents: 17th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, 28th and 30th Reports from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, considered in Grand Committee on 10 February.
Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Consumer Credit) (Designated Activities) Order 2014
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Newby
That the draft Orders laid before the House on 14 January be approved.
Relevant document: 18th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 10 February.
Civil Legal Aid (Merits Criteria) (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations 2014
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Faulks
That the draft Order and Regulations laid before the House on 18 December 2013 and 16 January be approved.
Relevant document: 19th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 10 February.
Automatic Enrolment (Earnings Trigger and Qualifying Earnings Band) Order 2014
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Bates (Con)
That the draft Order laid before the House on 15 January be approved.
Relevant document: 19th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 10 February.
Water Cannons
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to license the use of water cannons on the United Kingdom mainland.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
My Lords, I am very grateful to have secured this debate and to noble Lords who are participating. My standing up to speak does not normally empty a room quite as fast, but I realise that this issue may not affect everybody.
This debate is about securing the licensing of water cannon for London, or perhaps for the whole of Britain—we do not know yet. I and many others have a lot of concerns about the use of water cannon. It is important to recognise that it is not just a London issue; it is of national importance. It could have an impact on many people UK-wide.
Boris Johnson, as the notional police and crime commissioner for London, is running an engagement with Londoners about water cannon, explaining why they are necessary, but his office has made clear that the response will not change the outcome. That is, the Met has asked for them, so the Met shall have them. In a recent letter, the Home Secretary appears to be under the impression that a proper consultation is going on with Londoners, but there most definitely is not. I would not want the Government or your Lordships to be misled on that.
I shall talk about three things—cost, use and potential targets—and I will pose three questions for which I should be grateful for an answer. In a sense, cost is not that much of an issue, because the Met budget, although reduced, is still £3.25 billion. I have been told that the Met hopes to buy second-hand from Germany at a cost of only about £30,000 each, so I guess that the total cost would be about £100,000, expecting the water cannons to last two to three years. New machines cost about £1 million each. However, then there is the cost of training, which must be ongoing over the years, plus storage in central London, plus maintenance. The Met recently had to be coerced into funding a £100,000 budget to continue the work of the Wildlife Crime Unit, which fights international organised crime networks that traffick endangered animals or parts of endangered animals.
Your Lordships may know that today, the UK is hosting a two-day international conference on the illegal wildlife trade, involving two future Kings of our country and world leaders from 50 nations invited by the Prime Minister, but the Met police has a team of five people going up against an illegal trade estimated to be worth £19 billion a year. If there is some spare cash in the Met budget, why is it prioritising a weapon that it will hardly ever use over a global economic crime with links to trafficking of drugs and people and even to terrorism, not to mention threatening some of the planet’s most iconic animals with extinction? I suspect that a lot of people would rather that it was spent there than on water cannon—or even on another priority altogether. I would be interested to know the Government’s view about the Met’s priorities.
As to the use of water cannon, what is their tactical potential and tactical limitations? Hugh Orde, who is president of the Association of Chief Police Officers and one of only two officers to have deployed water cannon says:
“Water cannon could act as an effective deterrent to stop protests gaining momentum … What it does, is buy you space, it keeps people apart, and people at distance”.
Is that really what London needs? In Northern Ireland, there was disputed territory of which two or more groups wanted possession to march in. That simply is not true of London. The sort of disorder that has happened in the past few years often involves small groups of people moving quickly, staying in touch by mobile phones and social media. Water cannon would be useless in that situation, as the police themselves have admitted. These machines are slow and not very manoeuvrable within our mostly narrow streets. They are heavy and take some stopping. They need wide roads or spaces to be effective.
There is a very big civil liberties concern. My fear is that innocent people will be affected, if not by being hosed down with water at a few degrees above freezing, perhaps by being deterred from protesting at all. Water cannon could stifle attendance at legitimate democratic protests, which the Met has a duty to protect.
Please do not believe anyone saying that they are not dangerous. In one famous example in 2010, pensioner Dietrich Wagner was permanently blinded by water cannon in Germany. He was part of a protest ride to prevent developers cutting down some trees. As well as suffering major bruising, Wagner’s eyelids were torn and on one side, part of his orbital bone, the bone which protects the eye, was fractured. He hopes to be here in London next week to speak out on the use of water cannon.
When would water cannon be used? Who would be the targets? We have been hearing that water cannon would be rarely seen and rarely used. When asked exactly when they would be used, the Met answers that they would not be used against peaceful protesters and they are obviously not for small-scale violent rioting in narrow places. They would be for people throwing petrol bombs, who obviously would not hide themselves in a large crowd of peaceful protesters, or the Met could pick them off, or something—a highly speculative scenario.
The Met have also claimed that water cannon could have saved the Reeves furniture store in Croydon, but that night there were fires in Clapham, Enfield and Peckham, plus rioting in a total of 22 boroughs. One set of three water cannon, broken up or deployed as a threesome, might have been deployed to one of the fires and may have got there in time to be useful, but would the Met have been able to use them to do very much else? That seems unlikely because of the travelling time alone, let alone co-ordinating with local police command and the fire brigade about the exact needs.
There is quite a lot of opposition to the use of water cannon, not all from the usual suspects. Of course, there is opposition from organisations such as Liberty but also from senior police officers. Five of the six largest forces in England and Wales said that they were against deploying water cannon on their streets and one police and crime commissioner dismissed them as being,
“as much use as a chocolate teapot”,
for quelling disorder. The noble Lord, Lord Blair, former Met commissioner, has written to me and has allowed me to read out the contents of his letter:
“Since I left office, I have deliberately not commented on matters which are for decision by my successors but in this case I am prepared to do so. Water cannon have proved useful in Northern Ireland to keep two identifiable and violent factions apart or to protect public buildings or particular community enclaves from sectarian attack. In my opinion, much more explanation needs to be given as to how they would be of use in public order situations including violent and non-violent participants or in deterring very mobile rioters carrying out widely dispersed attacks as in the 2011 riots. I am not suggesting a case cannot be made: but I do not believe it has been so far”.
The Government will probably say that this is an operational issue and they therefore have to listen to police advice. I realise that it is very hard for a party that is—or expects to be—in government to appear to look soft on law and order, and it is true that deploying these weapons will be an operational decision for the police forces owning them. Licensing them is most definitely a political decision, though, and doing a Pontius Pilate on this is really not good enough. So I ask the Government when they think these machines will be used.
There is something very ironic about the Met police justifying the purchase of these water cannon because of the 2011 riots, when it was Met actions that triggered the disorder. If the Met had not shot an unarmed man and had treated the Duggan family with more respect and professionalism, those riots may never have been sparked and the grumbling discontent of poverty and hardship may never have broken the surface in London and other parts of Britain. However, the Met did shoot an unarmed man, did not treat the Duggan family well and the rest is history, but water cannon would probably not have helped in any way.
We are told that the Met want water cannon by the summer, yet they admit that they have no intelligence about possible disturbances. Do the Government have such intelligence, or do they think the case has been made for the use of water cannon? My view is that the case has not been made, and the public must be convinced to be taken with the police, if we are still to have policing by consent. I urge Her Majesty’s Government to pause before licensing water cannon for anywhere on the British mainland.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, I declare my interest as chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Policing and as an adviser to technology companies that, as far as I know, have no interest in providing water cannon to the policing service in this country. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, on securing this debate and giving us an opportunity to discuss what I consider to be potentially an extremely important issue.
First, though, we have to ask ourselves why we are discussing this at all. I am normally someone who is regarded as being supportive—some would say oversupportive—of the police service in this country, but I have to say that I have the gravest reservations as to why we are even talking about this. The Daily Telegraph, a newspaper that I know many noble Lords will believe is the fount of all possible wisdom on many matters, told us on 23 January that it is because senior police officers now believe that the risks of future protests against the Government are so great, and those protests will be so large and difficult to control, that only the deployment of water cannon on the streets of mainland Britain will enable public order to be maintained. Indeed, according to the Telegraph,
“Police warn they expect water cannon will be required because ‘the ongoing and potential future austerity measures are likely to lead to continued protest’”.
The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, has said that the police have no specific intelligence on this. Maybe the Minister can tell us that he has intelligence about some future plan of the Government which will be so awesome in terms of the austerity measures introduced, or so offensive to the public, that this sort of response will be triggered. I do not doubt that there will be public protest about the Government. There will no doubt be public protest about the Government’s future austerity measures. But really? So large? So difficult to control? So far beyond anything that we have seen before? So much bigger? So much larger? More than the 250,000 or 500,000 who demonstrated against government cuts in public spending in March 2011? More than the 750,000 or 1 million who demonstrated against the Iraq war in February 2003? Water cannon were not needed then, so why do we envisage that they may be needed in the foreseeable future?
The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, has told us of the views of the noble Lord, Lord Blair of Boughton, who is not in his place today. He also spoke to me. He says that he does not believe that the case has been made. His successor as Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis, Sir Paul Stephenson, said in 2010, following the student tuition fee riots, that he was opposed to water cannon, saying that it would lead to an unsuitably paramilitary style of policing. Only two years ago, the present Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, warned of the limitations of water cannon in these sorts of situations.
Now we are told that the Metropolitan Police want this facility—but for what? It is actually quite difficult to work it out. Chief Constable David Shaw, who prepared a report on behalf of the Association of Chief Police Officers, concedes that the water cannon would not have been a useful tactic, would not have been effective, during the August 2011 riots. That makes sense. Water cannon are effective at dispersing a large crowd, or at keeping two large crowds apart. That is the experience in Northern Ireland. However, the disturbances in August 2011 were not like that. Rioters were already dispersed. They were highly mobile. That was the problem. The police could not be in a sufficient number of locations quickly enough. They could not be everywhere all of the time. They could not respond to a rapidly moving situation, where crowds and individuals were moving from one place to another very quickly. Why would you want a water cannon to disperse a crowd that was already dispersed? Indeed, if anything, it would make your problem in policing that situation even worse. It would therefore have been no use in the August 2011 disturbances.
The ACPO report cites three occasions in the past decade on which water cannon might have been used: the Countryside Alliance demonstration in Parliament Square in 2004; the Gaza demonstrations against the Israeli embassy in 2008-09; and, potentially—it says “potentially”—the student protests of 2010. On the other hand, the Metropolitan Police are saying that water cannon would be rarely used and rarely seen. In fact, Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley has given a pledge that the Met would never use them against protests, which would seem to rule out any of the three occasions suggested by the Association of Chief Police Officers. I am not suggesting for one moment that the Association of Chief Police Officers does not speak as with one voice with the senior leadership of the Metropolitan Police on all matters, but it seems that on this particular issue they were not entirely in accord.
What would have been the implications had water cannon been deployed on those occasions cited by ACPO? Let us consider the Countryside Alliance demonstration; a number of your Lordships may recall what that was like. During that, there was a point when the police were concerned that the demonstrators might break through their ranks and storm Parliament. That was a serious situation, which was eventually resolved by conventional policing—slightly messily, but it was resolved. However, the only way that water cannon might have assisted in those circumstances would have been if they had already been deployed, in advance of the police knowing that potentially they might lose control of the situation and that it was deteriorating. Who could have predicted in advance that the welly-clad, middle-class, pro-hunting brigade would be so violent on that particular day? The only way that the water cannon could have been deployed would have been to park them inside the precincts of Parliament, inside the Palace of Westminster, facing outwards. Does anyone really believe that that would have been sanctioned —in advance and on the basis of no intelligence that anything was going to happen—by Mr Speaker or the Lord Speaker? What sort of message would we have put out to the rest of the world? Imagine the images of the mother of Parliaments with water cannon firing jets of water out from New Palace Yard.
What about the student protests of 2010? The problem there was that an unexpected—I stress that—splinter group chose to attack Conservative Central Office. That was a break-away group which acted unpredictably. That there would be a break-away group may have been predictable, but what they would do and when they would do it was unpredictable. Therefore water cannon would not have been in the right place at the right time. Had their activities been foreseen, normal policing could have controlled the situation—enough police would have been surrounding Conservative Central Office. What if such activities are not foreseen? The break-away faction is a risk in all otherwise peaceful demonstrations, as it is mixed in with all sorts of ordinary demonstrators who are not planning to be as objectionable. Break-away factions are by their nature unpredictable—it is not possible to foresee when they will break away—so you will not have the water cannon deployed and in the right place at the right time.
What is this all about? Is it another mayoral vanity project? Maybe I am being too kind. What psychology is involved with a mayor who wants to have a large hose to douse the lower orders? I suspect that the timeline began with one of the Taliban-tendency Tory Back-Benchers, who said after the 2011 riots: “The Met needs water cannon”. The Home Secretary, who wishes to be the next Tory leader and therefore never says to a Tory Back-Bencher, “You are out of your tiny mind”, replied, “If the police think they will need them, we will consider it”. The mayor, who also wants to be the next Tory leader—possibly even more than the Home Secretary—but who certainly does not want to be out-righted by her and certainly also wants to curry favour with the same Taliban tendency, said to the Met: “Are you sure you might not need them?”. The Met said, “Okay—we’ll think about it”, and so the process starts. Before you know it we are in the process of buying three clapped-out German water cannon no one else wants, which no one knows when they might need to use, and we run the risk of them being deployed, which would make a difficult situation worse and further alienate those with a grievance.
British policing has a worldwide, proud record of managing public order events. Why are we trying to throw that away?
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, for enabling us to debate this issue. I agree with a number of remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, although unlike the other two previous speakers I shall try to avoid making party-political points.
During my 30 years of service for the Metropolitan Police I was involved in public order policing at every rank. I started off with the Grunwick trade dispute, was involved in the Lewisham, Southall and Brixton riots, and was later trained as one of a cadre of advanced, trained public order senior police officers. Not only was I trained in dealing with serious public disorder, but I have been involved in it.
It was following those incidents to which I have referred that the Metropolitan Police acquired and tested water cannon at its public order training centre, at that time in Greenwich, in the 1980s. We found that the water cannon we had were too slow and lacked manoeuvrability. They took too long to fill up from the mains water supply and, once full, the water lasted only a few minutes in use. It was decided that water cannon was not a practical option and the idea was abandoned.
There is one, and only one situation, where, in my professional experience, I believe that water cannon may be of use to the police service, and that is to create distance between large stationary crowds throwing missiles at, or in hand-to-hand combat with, police officers who are trying to hold a line. The only significant example I can think of, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, is the Countryside Alliance protest of 2004 where, in order to try to create distance between police officers and protesters who appeared to want to invade Parliament, terrible injuries were inflicted on the crowd by officers using batons. Water cannon might have been effective in reducing those injuries in those circumstances. While the injuries were regrettable, Parliament being prevented from carrying out its democratic functions when in session would have been worse.
However, the question has to be asked whether water cannon would have been used in such a situation, even if the Met had them available. As the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, rightly pointed out, the police on that occasion were caught out by the strength of feeling and the ferocity of the attack on their lines. They had no idea that what they believed would be a peaceful protest would result in such a determined effort to overrun them. If they had thought this might happen, they would have put police cordons at the entrances to Parliament Square and across Abingdon Street, and used a network of barriers as well as police lines to split and contain the crowd. If the crowd had been kept at some distance from its target, it would probably not have been so determined to surge into Parliament. My point is this: rarely do events happen on the UK mainland where water cannon would be useful. Those situations usually result when the police are surprised by the ferocity of the situation, and in such situations water cannon would not be deployed in any event.
We are supposed to be reassured by the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis and the Mayor of London’s comments that water cannon would be,
“rarely used and rarely seen”.
However, as the noble Lord, Lord Harris, said, if they are rarely to be seen, they will not be on standby at every demonstration in case things get out of hand. This begs two questions: why, then, are water cannon used by the Police Service of Northern Ireland and why is the Metropolitan Police Service asking for them now? I come to somewhat different conclusions on that from those of the noble Lord, Lord Harris. Water cannon are used in Northern Ireland reluctantly when, all too frequently, the police come under attack trying to enforce the route of a march, or when two communities attack each other at well known, traditional flashpoints. Such situations are, sadly, not rare and, sadly, predictable.
As Sir Hugh Orde, the former chief constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, and now the president of ACPO, said in 2011, he used water cannon in Northern Ireland “with a heavy heart” when his officers were,
“being attacked by blast bombs and live fire”.
Quite frankly, even in the riots that swept London and some other cities in 2011, we did not see the level of violence that has been seen in Northern Ireland, and what we need is a proportionate response to violence on the streets. In 2011, Sir Hugh Orde said:
“What we have seen so far from these riots, involving fast moving and small groups of lawless people, is a situation that merits the opposite end of public-order policing”,
from the use of water cannon. I agree.
Sir Hugh Orde has carried out a rapid U-turn—something a water cannon is incapable of doing—by now supporting the use of water cannon on the UK mainland. Appearing before the London Assembly recently, he still described water cannon as “unwieldy” and “huge lumps”, but said that they could be used only in certain locations, such as:
“In Whitehall, outside Downing Street, the Houses of Parliament, there are places where they can be used in terms of geography”.
The whole premise for the introduction of water cannon is to prevent the sort of disorder we saw in the 2011 riots. Mark Rowley, assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, who has already been mentioned, said that water cannon would be of particular use when there was a clear target, citing the burning of shops in Croydon during the riots and scenes in Millbank during the student protests as examples. The Mayor of London, in the same meeting, in flat contradiction to the assistant commissioner, when asked about the London riots and water cannon, said that it,
“would not have made a blind bit of difference”.
Nor would he have authorised their use during the student protests. Despite this, he supports and is prepared to pay for Metropolitan Police water cannon. That does not seem to make much sense.
Let us be clear, policing in this country is based on consent—on the public co-operating with and working with the police. The police must do all they can to appear approachable, to be as much like ordinary people as possible, and to be citizens in uniform doing what we would do if we had their powers and training. What they must not do is appear to be some alien force that has so little respect that the only way they can maintain order is by force and the use of such weapons as water cannon.
Water cannon could usefully be deployed only in very rare situations, and even then the police are unlikely to have them available because these are situations that they were not expecting. Almost without exception, conventional public-order tactics coupled with good intelligence and pre-planning have been and will continue to be successful. Licensing the use of water cannon, their purchase and use on the UK mainland would be disproportionate and damaging to the reputation of the police service. Whichever way we look at it, water cannon are just not worth it.
Lord Empey (UUP)
My Lords, I shall, if I may, make a brief intervention in the gap. I served for 10 years on the Northern Ireland Police Authority and, as has been referred to, we deployed water cannon on a number of occasions—but rare occasions. The principal purpose of having them is to provide separation between two groups or between one group and the police. The reason for using them is to prevent having to move one step up: to using baton rounds, which can be lethal. Water cannon is a less lethal form of crowd control.
Mention has been made of August 2011. The noble Baroness, Lady Browning, as a Home Office Minister at that stage when we had a special sitting of this House, called a meeting to discuss reactions. People were talking about water cannons right, left and centre. In August 2011 they would have been utterly useless because they do not work with skirmishing or fast-moving crowds. They are of value only in providing space between the police and a crowd or between two crowds. They are not manoeuvrable and do not have the flexibility needed.
I suggest that there are occasions when it could happen. We have this sort of almost arrogant reaction that somehow policing in this country is so wonderful that we should not lower ourselves to the level of some of our European partners which use them in their street situations. I am afraid that things are changing. Public disorder will change in character over the years. We are not in the era of “Dixon of Dock Green” any more. I could not say that we should rule out water cannon, but I ask the Minister to consider, in discussions with ACPO and others, whether there would be a stock of UK-wide availability of water cannon, rather than each police service having to purchase its own. They could be drawn down from time to time. For instance, the Northern Ireland police has loaned water cannon to the Brussels police when farmers demonstrated, so that type of thing does happen.
Instead of having these expensive machines all over the place it might be better to have a national stock that could be drawn down in an emergency. They are for defending fixed points. They are a less lethal use of force than baton rounds, which we have to be extremely careful with. I, therefore, suggest that we do not get ourselves too worked up about this. It is a rare situation but it is not entirely unpredictable. If the police have availability, at least that is one step below using baton rounds.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, it is a tragic irony that we are discussing water cannon at a time when significant parts of the country are desperate for water pumps. However, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, on securing this timely and relevant debate as the Mayor of London is currently undertaking what some would call a consultation, and he calls an engagement, on the use of water cannon in London. Water cannon have never been used in London or anywhere else in England, Scotland or Wales. But, as we have heard, they have had some use in Northern Ireland at times of extreme and violent disorder as an alternative to AEPs—attenuating energy projectiles or baton rounds—or at a stage before employing AEPs to try to avoid doing so. I understand that although the use of cannon is an operational decision by the police, the Home Secretary has to license their use in other parts of the UK before the police can purchase them or decide whether it is appropriate to use them.
The London riots of 2011 led to some consideration of whether water cannon could be used in similar circumstances. The Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, has written to the Home Secretary saying that he is,
“broadly convinced of the value of having water cannon available to the MPS”.
He then states that he will undertake a “short period of engagement”, to confirm support in London. He adds:
“Should the engagement plan reveal serious, as yet unidentified, concerns I will, of course, take these into consideration and share them with you”—
the Home Secretary—
“before you make any decision to license this non-lethal tool”.
However, if we look at the views of ACPO in its useful report of 8 January 2014, in reference to the safety of water cannon, ACPO relies wisely on the evidence from the independent Science Advisory Committee on the Medical Implications of Less-Lethal Weapons. The term “less lethal” is used, as opposed to the “non-lethal” used by the Mayor of London, because ACPO accepts,
“that water cannon are capable of causing serious injury or even death”.
ACPO also stresses the training and experience of officers and that there have been no reported injuries when used by the PSNI.
I am not going to be alarmist over their use. I appreciate that they do not have to be used at full velocity and that officers are trained to use the cannon in different ways, from full jet to a diffused spray as a mist. I also know that to avoid medical problems, bizarrely, the water has to be heated before it can be used from a water cannon. However, I question why the mayor has informed the Home Secretary that this is a non-lethal weapon when ACPO clearly advises that it is less lethal. There is a difference. The risks may be minimal, but they must be accurately weighed up and taken into account.
However, other noble Lords have raised the crucial question for this debate: why would the Mayor of London want to deploy water cannon in London? I find the circumstances in which ACPO indicated that they might have been used extraordinary. I am very pleased to note that my noble friend Lord Harris referred to the Daily Telegraph as his source of information. I confess that I got the same quote from the Guardian. It could even have been in the Daily Mail. However, the newspapers clearly accurately report the ACPO justification for asking for water cannon because of the need to police protests resulting,
“from ongoing and potential future austerity measures”,
which was exactly the comment that raised concern with me.
Do the Mayor of London and the Government really anticipate that their policies will cause such widespread civil and violent disorder that there will be no alternative but to douse protesters with water? Apparently so, according to the Home Office spokesperson. In the same newspaper, possibly also in the Telegraph, they said:
“We are keen to ensure forces have the tools and powers they need to maintain order on our streets. We are currently providing advice to the police on the authorisation process as they build the case for the use of water cannon”.
While admitting that the use of water cannon has little effect on the kind of fast, agile disorder that we have seen in London, the report gave examples, as previously referred to, of when they could have been used. One was the Countryside Alliance march of 2010. I bow to the superior policing knowledge of my noble friend Lord Harris and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and I am no particular fan of the Countryside Alliance given its obsession with fox hunting, as noble Lords will know. However, the idea that the Met, on that occasion, could have used water cannon against members of the Countryside Alliance would have done absolutely nothing to improve the perception of some on that march that it was a town versus country issue.
I cannot see how it would in any way have improved relations in the city to use water cannon on that occasion, or indeed during the student protests last year. There were those who behaved appallingly and dangerously, and there were some who behaved violently but it was a long way from the kind of violent disorder that we saw when cannons were used in Northern Ireland. For example, at the protests at Whiterock and the Ardoyne in 2005, the police were under fire from live rounds, cars were being set on fire and missiles were being thrown. That is a very different situation from those we have seen in London, whether with students or the Countryside Alliance. The scenes of protest seen in Brazil recently travelled round the world in real time. Following the Belfast protests last year, there was a huge fear of their economic impact and of an international reputation being destroyed. What impact would it have around the world to see London under siege and cannons being employed? What would be the impact on the economy of London, or on our visitors and tourists?
As the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, said, the costs are well documented: you do not buy cheap cannons. However, the Mayor of London has indicated that although the Home Secretary has declined to contribute to the costs, he will find the money should she license the use of the cannon. Initially, there was some expectation that other police forces would have wanted to contribute to the costs of police cannon. That now seems unlikely. Already one police chief, as we have heard, said that they would be,
“as much use as a chocolate teapot”,
for quelling disorder and there was no support from five of the six largest forces in the country with the PCCs for Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire, Merseyside and Thames Valley all rejecting the plans. It therefore seems highly unlikely that they would be willing to share the costs.
Tony Lloyd, the PCC for Greater Manchester, remains sceptical. He said:
“No convincing argument has been made about how water cannons could improve policing or community safety … Before we moved anywhere close to using them on our streets, there would need to be a full and proper public debate about when they would be used, how they would be used and why they would be used. For example, they would have been completely ineffective on the streets of Manchester and Salford during the 2011 riots”.
The chief constable of Greater Manchester, Sir Peter Fahy, is in complete agreement with Tony Lloyd on that issue. Jane Kennedy, the PPC for Merseyside, where Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe once served, was also dismissive. She said:
“The chief constable, Jon Murphy, and I have considered the use of water cannon”—
so they have considered it—
“and believe them to be of limited value for Merseyside. I would not want to see precious resources diverted to purchase such vehicles when their value is yet to be proven”.
There is little support outside London on operational grounds.
The Mayor of London and ACPO have failed to convince their colleagues across the country that involving water cannon in policing demonstrations against the Government is a good use of resources. There are now 3,000 fewer police officers in London than when the Government took office and I wonder whether local police officers think that water cannon is the better use of police resources in those circumstances. London is a wonderful capital city. Like all cities, it has its problems but, in terms of policing priorities, I have not been convinced yet by the arguments put forward that water cannon are the answer. If the Home Secretary is to grant a licence and if the Mayor of London wants to use Londoners’ money to buy water cannon, the case needs to be far stronger than it is at present.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con)
My Lords, I would like to conclude this debate by first thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, for raising this Question. All noble Lords who have spoken in the debate have demonstrated their genuine interest in and concern about this issue. I know that the noble Baroness is concerned and she is therefore right to use this opportunity to raise the issue. We have heard a lot of interesting comments. I fundamentally disagree with her analysis of the cause of the August 2011 riots but I have been interested in the points made by noble Lords around the Chamber.
This Government are keen to ensure that the police have the tools and powers that they need to maintain order on our streets. The police, including the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police Service and Chief Constable David Shaw, the national policing lead for conflict management, have indicated that water cannon, alongside other tactics, may be of use in future in tackling the most serious disorder.
Policing in England and Wales is, however, firmly grounded in the principle of policing by consent. As such, it is quite right that that the introduction of new police tools and equipment is the subject of public and parliamentary debate. It is for this reason that I am pleased that the Lord Mayor of London—I am sorry, the Mayor of London, who is not a Member of this place; I apologise for that slip of the tongue—is engaging the public on the potential use of water cannon in the capital and why I am grateful for the opportunity to debate this matter here today.
There is a well established process in place for authorising the police to use equipment and systems that, without safeguards, have the capacity to cause harm. Tasers and attenuating energy projectiles, which we all know as baton rounds, have both been covered by this process, which includes a final decision on authorisation being made by the Home Secretary.
This process will be followed for water cannon. It would require a formal request for authorisation from the police and the submission of detailed operational, technical and medical information on the likely impact of the proposed system. This would include police statements setting out the justification for the use of water cannon and how they will be used. It would also include police guidance on the training and checks and balances in place to ensure that their use is effective and proportionate. A community impact assessment and an assessment by the Scientific Advisory Committee on the Medical Implications of Less-Lethal Weapons, commonly referred to as SACMILL, would help ensure that the risks associated with their use were properly identified, understood and mitigated. The Home Secretary would then consider carefully the request and the documentation presented to her before making her decision. Parliament would be notified of the Home Secretary’s decision, and the relevant documentation would be laid in the House Library.
So where are we in the authorisation process for water cannon? The police have indicated publicly that they would like water cannon and are developing the materials necessary to support a request for authorisation. A briefing document from the national policing lead for conflict management, Chief Constable David Shaw, sets out the way in which the police would use water cannon, the operational gap they consider would be filled, and the checks and balances that would be in place. This information is publicly available.
The MPS commissioner has declared his desire to have water cannon. The Mayor of London has said that he wants to enable Londoners to have their say before confirming his agreement. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, as a member of the London Assembly Police and Crime Committee, is very close to this matter and is rightly ensuring that a wide range of views are sought and debated. This debate is part of that process. However, in the interests of transparency and informing the current debate, the police have made information publicly available on the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime website. I believe that some noble Lords will already have been advised of that link by my office.
Perhaps I could just respond to a few of the questions raised by noble Lords. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, was concerned that the London Mayor, Boris Johnson, would take no notice of the London engagement programme. I will read an extract from the letter that he sent to the Home Secretary, which says:
“In order to confirm the support in London for the use of water cannon in the most extreme circumstances, I will be undertaking a short period of engagement … Should the engagement plan reveal serious, as yet unidentified, concerns I will, of course, take these into consideration and share them with you”—
namely, the Home Secretary.
The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and the noble Lord, Lord Harris, asked about the sort of incidents in which water cannon might be used. The police have indicated that they want to have access to water cannon as one of their tools and tactics to deal with serious and violent disorder. The examples that they have given include defending a fixed and vulnerable or iconic location; separation of hostile crowds during demonstration or disorder; creating distance between police and opposing factions; and facilitating the advance of police resources and other emergency services to deal with life-at-risk incidents during incidents of severe disorder. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, demonstrated how they had been used effectively in Northern Ireland in those sorts of instances. So there is some value in water cannon to policing, and the police have explained that, if faced with the need to protect vulnerable premises or disperse a crowd, water cannon would be useful.
The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, drew attention to the use of water cannon on the continent, and quoted an incident in Stuttgart where injuries had been caused. It is not accurate to compare the use of water cannon in this country with the use in other countries, because the use of water cannon in Northern Ireland had no reported injuries. The regulatory regime for their use in this country would be determined by SACMILL, as I explained, to ensure that injuries were not the consequence of their use.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, also asked whether there would be an opportunity for water cannon to be used elsewhere in the United Kingdom. I have to emphasise that the position on this is for local police units, and we have heard that not all local police and crime commissioners and heads of regional police forces in this country agree with the Met on this issue. It would be unreal to see water cannon based here in London being shipped up to deal with activity somewhere else in the country; the timelines do not, to my mind, make that a viable proposition. So I think that we should disabuse ourselves of that particular idea.
The biggest challenge was presented by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, asking me whether the Government believe that the police have made their case. The Government’s position is that they are keen to ensure that the police have the tools and powers that they need to tackle disorder on our streets. The Home Secretary will make a decision on the use of water cannon when she receives the authorisation package from the chief constable, David Shaw. At that point, she will consider the factors and she will no doubt consider things that have been said here in the debate today. But it is her decision and she will make it on the principles that she considers the right ones at the time.
It is important that we have had this debate. This is a serious issue and I thank the noble Baroness for bringing it to the House’s attention.
Arts and Cultural Organisations
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Lord Mawson
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to help arts and cultural organisations thrive in the current financial landscape.
Lord Mawson
My Lords, the arts are currently facing two significant challenges: first, cuts to arts education in schools; and, secondly, cuts in funding, especially from local authorities. This difficult financial landscape within which arts and cultural organisations now sit is seen by some as an irresolvable crisis. For others, however, there are opportunities to create more innovative and entrepreneurial approaches that can enhance and expand arts and culture. I would like to suggest that a new, more entrepreneurial approach is now essential if many arts organisations are to survive and thrive. Worryingly, the evidence suggests that this is not happening at either the pace or scale that it needs to. We must ask ourselves why.
Numerous evaluations demonstrate that the arts have a profound impact, especially on disadvantaged children. I know this first-hand from 30 years of work in east London, where the largest artistic community outside New York lives. I have worked with many talented artists and musicians over the years, developing successful projects and business start-ups with local children and residents in some of the poorest housing estates in this country. Arts organisations are essential to the well-being of our society, and let us not forget that the arts and culture industry is also central to our economy’s well-being. In 2007, the cultural and creative industries accounted for 7.3% of the overall economy of this country—comparable in size to the financial services industry. I and many colleagues working in the arts believe that a vibrant arts and cultural sector relies on a mixed economy and that intelligent public investment is a part of that mix. As the economy shows signs of recovery, I hope that the Government will prudently adopt a long-term approach and constantly review public support of the arts.
What of the present? The majority of arts organisations across this country are struggling to adapt to the Government’s cuts in statutory funding, especially at the local authority level. The Government urgently need to do more to encourage and support arts organisations to think as creatively about their business models as they do about their art. One of the most significant changes in our society over the past 30 years is the rise of the wealthy individual. We are told that 1% of the population now pay one-third of all income tax, yet 40% of the cultural and creative industries receive no private investment. While larger organisations such as the Royal Opera House and the National Theatre, which also receive the largest amounts of subsidy, are successfully cultivating high net-worth donors, smaller arts organisations often do not have the infrastructure to attract this type of donor. They also understandably feel that they do not have a product that is high profile enough for large donors to be interested in.
I understand that one of Baroness Thatcher’s regrets was that the increase in personal wealth during her time in office did not translate into an increase in giving. We all know that the story is very different in the US. It seems that few British arts organisations have the practical knowledge to harness opportunities, such as social investing, to rethink or enhance their business models. We must help them to broaden their appeal beyond trusts, foundations, government and big business to focus on coming up with innovative ways to encourage individuals to support arts and culture, through both philanthropy and social investment.
It has consistently been my experience that individuals involved in building practical projects speak far more effectively on our key social and economic issues than many of our politicians and so-called experts. Perhaps, then, the way to part-address our current cultural crises is to raise the profile and disseminate the practice of arts organisations that have been successful in taking entrepreneurial approaches to diversify their income base. They include organisations such as the Derby Theatre, partnering with the University of Derby as a live venue and training centre; the Albany in south-east London, which bids for contracted services and is now running the library; and the Live Theatre Company in Newcastle, which uses innovative development of capital assets to provide sustainable income streams. These organisations are bucking the trend and taking on board a more entrepreneurial approach.
I am proud to have been recently involved in one such innovative arts project—the Conservatoire in Blackheath, south-east London, and here I declare an interest as chairman of the trustees. I thought that it might be helpful if I shared with the House the journey that this organisation has undertaken during the past year, the lessons we have learnt and the key practical outcomes that we have delivered. I was asked to chair the Conservatoire in Blackheath 14 months ago. This arts charity was founded in south-east London in 1881 and is the city’s oldest multi-arts venue, offering music and art lessons to local children and adults. Each week, around 100 talented tutors teach music and art to more than 1,600 people, ranging in age from six months to 90 years.
In January 2013, the Conservatoire was a week away from handing over its keys to the bank that financed it. Its core business model was unsustainable: the margins on music lessons did not cover the costs, the buildings were neglected and cash flow was critical. The organisation was facing foreclosure and staff and tutors had faced empty pay packets before Christmas. Most organisations would have folded, but the Conservatoire was fortunate. It had a new CEO—an American social entrepreneur called Sydney Thornbury, who invited me to take the helm and bring in a new group of experienced trustees. We entrepreneurs saw the problem as an opportunity for fresh thinking.
Our ambitious plan focused on creating a sustainable business model for the new financial landscape. It included forging a crucial strategic partnership with City Lit, Europe’s leading provider of adult education, and bringing together an American pyramid fundraising model to raise the £175,000 of bridge funding that we needed to get from the old model to the new. In just six weeks, the fundraising campaign smashed its target, raising a total of £220,000. Donors included an angel donor, who gave an incredible £25,000, as well as local children who donated their pocket money. Money quite clearly followed ideas and commitment. The fundraising campaign enabled the Conservatoire to embark on an ambitious plan of building works, renovation and development.
The Conservatoire has positioned itself back in the heart of its community. The community came together in an extraordinary display of support to save the Conservatoire. Now, the Conservatoire can once again successfully serve its community because our strategic plan has provided us with both a long-term sustainable income model and a major enhancement of the organisation’s offer for the community. The new vision positions the Conservatoire as a dynamic arts organisation reaching people from a cross-section of the community through both its paid classes and large-scale social impact projects.
Our plans do not stop there: we are thinking ahead. With the first phase of City Lit classes successfully up and running, the Conservatoire is now embarking on raising the money needed to launch phase two of the plan. This will see the development of the final two studios that are necessary to fulfil its sustainable income model and enable 300 additional classes to run, bringing the organisation to self-sufficiency and beyond. The Conservatoire will source these funds through both traditional fundraising and social investment loans from individuals who want to take advantage of the Government’s new tax incentives for social investing.
The best way to find new and enhanced national models of fundraising for the arts is, first, to demonstrate new thinking locally. The Conservatoire is still navigating deep waters but we hope, in time, to connect our pioneering model to the wider legacy developments to the north in the Lower Lea Valley. This development will, it is hoped, inspire a more creative and entrepreneurial rethink of arts funding nationally.
However, if we are to help the arts sector to survive and learn not just from this project but from the other entrepreneurial projects mentioned previously, the Government need to join in the grown-up, challenging and even radical conversation that we are initiating. How does the sector revolutionise and enhance funding models for sustainability in the “new normal”? This is a particularly important conversation to be had at local authority level, and we want to work closely with the LGA.
Peter Bazalgette, the chairman of Arts Council England, said recently:
“If you can find a way of getting the arts and culture, local government, business and higher education to work together then you have something really powerful”.
I think that he is right, but how do we translate these fine words into reality? First, government needs to value practical people. Civil servants often think their way into action; entrepreneurs are about learning by doing and acting their way into thinking. Let us value, support and publicly recognise pioneers in the arts sector. Secondly, government needs to actively enable an entrepreneurial culture to flourish. The Government’s new tax breaks on social investing, which the Conservatoire plans to put to use in April this year, will do much to develop a vibrant social finance sector. But far more practical support needs to be given to arts organisations if they are successfully to learn to operate in an enterprise economy.
I can see that my time is up. I will sit down with the Minister privately and suggest some practical ways in which we might do this.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, I am sure that we are all grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, for introducing this debate, and I am sure that we all wish him well with his plans for this conservatoire. I would just say to him, and indeed to my noble friend the Minister, that if they take the trouble to go to the Library and to dust down the unanimous report of the Select Committee on Education, Science and the Arts, published in another place in 1983, they will find many recommendations which the Government could still profitably benefit from. I was much involved with that report and had the honour of chairing most of the committee sittings that led up to it. I suggest both to the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, and to my noble friend that it is worth looking at.
In a brief debate like this I just want to concentrate my remarks on one particular thing. People whose lives are enriched by the arts, as they are, and people who come to this country and enrich it because of our arts and our heritage are all, I think, very moved by some of our greatest buildings. One thinks of the great public buildings in London but I think particularly of the cathedrals and parish churches of this country. I say to my noble friend that I am one of those who is very concerned by recent proposed changes in English Heritage. I completely understand why the Government have decided that they want to divide English Heritage and give it an endowment to look after the buildings under its own control—there are some very fine and marvellous buildings—and why they wish to have another branch, probably to be called Historic England, which will give all the technical advice and support and be in charge of listing and all the rest of it. But there is a potential catastrophe in this change because English Heritage’s powers to give grants to buildings which it does not itself possess will have gone.
I have the great good fortune of living in the wonderful city of Lincoln, which has—I do not want to be provocative or divisive—what I consider to be the finest of all our cathedrals, but what everybody, I think, would agree is one of our greatest cathedrals. It costs £50,000 a week to keep Lincoln Cathedral open, without a penny being spent on restoration or maintenance. Over recent years Lincoln Cathedral has been able to look to English Heritage, which is extremely generous and helpful and has given £250,000 most years. That has now gone. There is a real problem, and that problem can be repeated up and down the country. Some people might ask, “What about the Heritage Lottery Fund?”. That is a wonderful organisation and we in Lincoln are benefiting from it at the moment in that we have had a grant of £12 million towards a project called Lincoln Castle Revealed.
However, the Heritage Lottery Fund has its criteria, which include inclusiveness and how many people come and what sort of people. I do not quarrel with that at all. But what I do say is that there has to be a source of funds directed to buildings for their intrinsic beauty, worth and historic interest. That source used to be English Heritage; it will be no more. I believe that, in the case of our great historic cathedrals—we have 27 truly important medieval cathedrals in this country, and there are 42 in all—we ought to have a separate endowment fund, similar to the endowment fund that the Government are giving to English Heritage for its own purposes, to sustain our cathedrals. Any country that allowed the west front of Wells or Lincoln, the spire of Salisbury, the tower of Durham or any of our great edifices to be in danger of collapse could not begin to call itself civilised, or claim that it had a proper Government of a civilised country.
I know that the present Government would never wish to be in that position, but what I would say to my noble friend who is to reply to the debate is this. We have to recognise that these buildings are of incomparable worth, where one comes perhaps closer to the soul of our nation than anywhere else. They demand and cry out for the sort of support that is not currently being given but that will need to be given in the future.
Baroness Kidron (CB)
My Lords, I sit as a trustee on a number of organisations involved in the arts, and they are all recorded in the register. I am also a working filmmaker. I feel that it is necessary to declare to the House that I am married to a writer who has been most vigorous in his campaign against cuts to the arts and libraries in his home town of Newcastle.
In April of last year, the Culture Secretary, the right honourable Maria Miller MP, told us:
“When times are tough and money is tight, our focus must be on culture’s economic impact”.
Although she acknowledged that this argument would not be to “everyone’s taste”, she did call for all of us to accept this “fundamental premise”. Ironically, my own discipline of film is something of a poster child for those who believe that the value of an art form can be measured by the wealth it produces, having contributed £4.6 billion to the UK economy in 2011 and a wealth of provocative, engaging and beautiful moving image. But while it is easy to quantify art that successfully makes an economic impact, it is harder to account for the delicate ecosystem which allows that success to flourish. A spreadsheet tells only part of the story.
The insistence on an arts sector measured in economic outputs creates a bias towards certain kinds of art, a bias towards the capital, and a bias towards large, well funded institutions which leaves the vast majority of the arts and practitioners of the arts behind. The November 2013 report, Rebalancing our Cultural Capital, illustrates in great detail the growing gap in arts spend outside London over the past two decades. Further work by the same authors shows that just four institutions in the capital receive more lottery funding than do the 33 local authorities, home to 6 million people, at the bottom of the list. These local authorities are predominantly although not exclusively in the north, but they all cover areas that are already challenged by other symptoms of deprivation and where current and prospective local authority cuts are biting most deeply. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation predicts that local authorities will have to cut any services they have no legal obligation to provide. I think we all know that local authority funding is disproportionately important to the artistic community outside the capital.
London benefits not only from a disproportionate amount of lottery funding, it receives the greatest proportion of public investment in other ways and attracts the lion’s share of business sponsorship and private philanthropy. I would vigorously assert the need for world-class arts organisations in the capital, but we must consider how to protect and deliver the same values and benefits to citizens elsewhere. Many of them are major contributors to the lottery through the purchase of tickets, but they suffer a measurable deficit of benefit.
Sir Nicholas Hytner, at the end of what was considered to be a triumphant decade as artistic director at the National Theatre, wrote very movingly in the Daily Telegraph of the importance of “innovation”, and the vital role of government subsidy in that innovation, rather than the role of sponsorship and philanthropy—about which he also has much to say and much to be grateful for. What starts as an experiment in the National Theatre studio so often ends up in the West End. London West End theatre brought in more than half a billion pounds in 2012 alone.
Just as the National Theatre feeds the West End, the National itself relies on an ecosystem where talent is nurtured in regional theatres all over the UK. For decades, the artistic directors of the National Theatre, the Royal Shakespeare Company and many other of our great theatres—and the greatest proportion of their creative contributors—have honed their skills in regional theatre. What we fund now, in all corners of the UK, will create the practitioners and aesthetic of the future—a vibrant and ever changing aesthetic that has made our theatre envied and loved the world over. Starving the ecosystem of the tiny, the local, the experimental, the site-specific and the amateur groups, or insisting that this same list become little businesses, will simply kill the juggernaut of British theatre which has conquered Broadway and beyond. This ecosystem, mirrored in dance, in music, in the visual and voluntary arts, in the digital arts and other performing arts, has palpable effects on other industries, from tourism to tech. Talent is not centred in London; appreciation is not centred in London; the need to see oneself reflected in our world is not centred in London.
I want to ask the Minister just these questions. Since Her Majesty’s Government have placed great emphasis on sponsorship and philanthropy, what steps will they take to protect the small, the experimental and the regional arts institutions that are traditionally of so little interest to commercial sponsors? How would the Minister suggest that the communities that contribute most to lottery funds ensure that they benefit proportionally from their distribution? Given the enormous cuts to local authority funding at a time when their duties have increased and their efficiency savings are largely complete, could not Her Majesty’s Government consider making arts funding a legal requirement of local authorities and provide the resources to support that requirement, in order that we do not decimate arts provision outside the golden circle of the M25 and, in doing so, deprive ourselves of the artists and art of the future?
The Lord Bishop of Worcester
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, for securing this debate and I pay tribute to the wonderful work that he has done in this area over many years, as I do to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, who has similarly done wonderful work. I claim no particular expertise, although I am passionate about the arts—perhaps that is something to do with the fact that it is sometimes said that many clergy are failed actors.
It is fortuitous that this debate is happening on the day of the launch of a study, report and review by the British Academy, Prospering Wisely: How the Humanities and Social Sciences Enrich our Lives. That report makes it clear that this country’s exemplary record in taking seriously these disciplines and the arts and learning from them is one of the major factors which make it as civilised as it is. They hold up a mirror to society and enable us to reflect on what makes for a good life and a healthy society. The same is true of the arts in general. In an age when the triumph of utilitarianism and consumerism sometimes seems to me to be almost complete, we need to remember that phrase, “prospering wisely”, which comes from King Alfred the Great.
However, there are real difficulties, as has been suggested, particularly in the provinces. Worcester boasts a wonderful arts organisation, Worcester Live, which is entrepreneurial in just the way that has been commended, but it is labouring under very difficult conditions because the green shoots of recovery have not yet found their way into people’s pockets. At the same time, county council funding has been reduced by 90% and there is no Arts Council funding, which, as been pointed out, tends to go to flagship venues. That is a matter of real concern. I suggest that one way to ease the situation would be for the Government to consider the distribution of lottery funding, which used to be much easier to apply for and broader in its remit.
There is good news in the midst of this era of financial stringency. The city of Worcester has at its centre a wonderful, imaginative new development entitled The Hive, which is a joint venture by the city council and the University of Worcester. They have together built The Hive, a library. The fact that they are working together in just the sort of partnership that has been commended is of great benefit to both the city and university in terms of availability of publications, opening hours and sharing of costs. It is an example of the imaginative partnership that should be encouraged elsewhere. At the same time, partly through the generosity of a local benefactor, there is an exciting plan soon to turn a part of the old porcelain factory into a state-of-the-art arts centre, so that Worcester’s fine artistic tradition can be developed yet further.
As the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, made clear, churches and cathedrals are at the centre of our cultural heritage and make an enormous contribution to the ongoing cultural and artistic life of this country. That is very much true of Worcester, which will be holding the Three Choirs festival again this year.
Despite all the pressures that exist on funding, I hope that, as a result of this debate, the Government will consider some of the suggestions that have already been proffered in order to do everything possible to encourage the arts and culture: in particular, by facilitating philanthropy, which has benefited us very greatly in Worcester, although it is still not as well developed as it might be; by enabling the sort of imaginative partnerships to which reference has been made during the course of the debate; and by looking again at how lottery funding is distributed.
Finally, as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, suggested, the Government should recognise that cathedrals and churches stand at the very heart of our cultural heritage and, as he put it so beautifully, reflect the soul of this country. They receive no direct government funding at the moment. The parish churches of our country, a wonderful gem, are looked after and maintained by small numbers of worshippers. It would be good if the Government recognised the importance of those buildings to our culture, in the way that the noble Lord suggested, by thinking again about what is happening with English Heritage. They are everyone’s heritage. It is to our benefit as a nation that they should be maintained and developed.
The Earl of Clancarty (CB)
My Lords, at the latest Performers’ Alliance All-Party Parliamentary Group meeting last month, we heard a presentation of the second Delphi study, In Battalions, by Fin Kennedy and Helen Campbell Pickford. I came away from that presentation with three concerns in particular. The first is the key question they identified from discussion with those working in theatre: in what ways can theatre-makers, theatres and the Arts Council work together to help to protect risk-taking on new work and new talent, without creating significant expense?
The second concern which became clear was that the arts organisation most at risk is the organisation of one, the playwright, the individual artist who, if not wholly, certainly significantly provides the raison d’être for the existence of the larger arts organisations, the theatres and companies which facilitate new work. That is after acknowledging that there is much collaborative work within the theatre, as within the arts as a whole. If that crucial individual risk-taking and experimentation is not nurtured, the arts will not progress but stagnate.
At the same event, we heard presentations from Giles Croft, artistic director of the Nottingham Playhouse, and from Elizabeth Newman, associate director of the Bolton Octagon. The message that rang out loud and clear was how increasingly difficult and time-consuming it is to try to balance the books and bring through new work, rather than rely on tried and tested productions.
My third concern is that it is entirely clear to those working in the arts, if not to the Government, that there is no substitute for public funding. Nothing really replaces what it achieves. Arts organisations are being told to “adapt”, a euphemism for becoming more commercial so that they may survive, but that change means that the very thing that made them worth while in the first place is in danger of being lost. This potential loss of risk-taking, entirely due to a lack of funding, becomes a more critical problem the further away we go from London.
In the year since the regional debate on the arts introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, much has already changed. We have had the report Rebalancing Our Cultural Capital, mentioned by noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, showing that public spending on the arts is now 15 times greater in London than in the regions. Indeed, the Nottingham Playhouse, which is facing a possible 100% cut in grant from the local council, is located in the East Midlands region, which this report identifies as being the most affected. The devastating Local Government Association report of 2012 is now joined by last year’s equally devastating Joseph Rowntree Foundation study, which predicts that arts and cultural funding by local councils may fall within a few years to almost nothing, and in December we had further local authority funding cuts.
In the short term, I am pessimistic about the discrepancy of funding between London and the regions. The discrepancy is increasing mainly because public funding is being cut—local authority funding, of course, but also the decreased reserves of core funding that will inevitably be hoovered up by London and the bigger institutions. Things will not change substantially until two things happen: first, the funding cuts are reversed and, secondly, the regions and the regional cities obtain greater autonomy, because arts and culture will follow political power. In this sense, of course, the arts are in the same boat as every other area of government subsidy. The regions need to be making their own funding decisions for their own arts production as well as services, and they need to have the money to do so. In addition, a future Government must bring in statutory provision for the arts.
We have a Government who are interested in the arts and creative industries as an export product and for tourism, but are less interested in how the arts are nurtured and produced. I ask the Minister whether the DCMS could take a careful look at the composition of the Creative Industries Council, which helps to formulate policy and which has both a strong global and London-centric feel. It looks outwards but it does not back inwards towards arts production across the whole of the UK. There is no sense of that geography, and that is important.
My other question for the Minister is the same one that I posed to the noble Lord, Lord Nash, at Question Time today. How important do the Government think arts education in schools is as a pipeline into the creative industries, which we hear are now worth £8 million an hour to the UK economy? If the Government think that it is important then the DCMS should be concerned at the continuing fall in the take-up of art and design subjects in schools, as well as the threat that exists to arts higher education.
Lord Aberdare (CB)
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Mawson has done well to give arts and culture a brief look-in before we rise for the Recess. I shall focus on classical music but it is clear from the debate so far that many of the issues are widely shared across the cultural sector. Two weeks ago the Times had an article headlined, “Orchestras gain fans but lose money”, based on a recent survey by the Association of British Orchestras. This highlighted concerns that real-terms reductions in funding could lead to UK orchestras losing their place in the top flight internationally.
One of the strengths of the UK arts funding model is that it is based on a mix of funding sources. Public funding, from national bodies such as the Arts Council and the National Lottery as well as from local authorities, is a vital part of the mix, representing over one-third of orchestras’ income, but it is supplemented by private contributions—almost 20% of the total—while nearly half of orchestras’ income is earned through ticket sales and other commercial activities. In the current financial landscape, all these funding sources are under pressure: Arts Council funding is declining, but not as sharply as that of many local authorities; ticket income is down, despite rising audiences; and business support is flat at best. Individual philanthropy shows a welcome increase, but is not nearly enough to begin to replace public funds, is concentrated in London much more than in the regions and is often focused on specific projects rather than on core funding.
In preparing for this debate, I have heard about challenges facing virtually all music organisations and activities. There are concerns about the future funding of music education and the delivery of the national plan for music education. The quality of the training provided by the UK’s leading music conservatoires is a key factor in creating and sustaining the UK’s international success in all forms of music. This depends heavily on the premium funding they receive to help cover the shortfall between the tuition fees that they can charge their students and the actual cost of providing that individual, intensive, one-on-one tuition, which can be up to £15,000 or £17,000.This funding has not yet been confirmed for 2014-15.
Specialist training bodies, such as the National Opera Studio, of which I am a modest supporter, depend on the availability of funding and support to develop the talents of young performers with the potential to become the leading artists of their generation. The music sector generally is concerned at the possible impact of planned copyright exceptions, representing a potential shift of value away from content creators, without corresponding compensation or benefits.
I recognise that the Government share the desire to support the creative sector, and also that it would be unrealistic to expect substantial extra funding for music and other art forms from either central or local government at present. I therefore hope that the Minister will look into other ways of easing some of the pressures on music organisations. First, everything possible should be done to protect the existing level of public funding for music and arts organisations, including from local authorities, where the challenges may be greatest. I was hugely impressed by a recent visit to High House Production Park in Purfleet, where the Royal Opera House is working in partnership with other creative sector bodies and Thurrock Borough Council to plan and deliver an ambitious cultural entitlement agenda for the borough, including a scenery workshop, a planned costume centre, a training centre offering creative sector apprenticeships, artists’ studios and more. What can the Minister do to encourage more such initiatives?
Conservatoires could be helped to plan ahead with greater confidence by giving them some reassurance about the continuation of the exceptional funding they receive, preferably for more than one year ahead. Young artists undergoing training should be eligible for schemes to promote skills development and employment of young people, perhaps by extending the Arts Council’s well regarded Creative Employment Programme to support more initiatives such as the UK Music Skills Academy. I applaud the Government’s desire to promote individual philanthropy, but there is surely scope for further encouragement and incentives, such as extending gift aid on admissions to include arts charities.
Creative content providers must get a fair deal from copyright exceptions. Young people interested in the creative sector need to be made aware of the importance of intellectual property issues. The Intellectual Property Office, in partnership with UK Music, has just launched an app, Music Inc, aimed at 14 to 18 year-olds for this very purpose. What can the Minister do to encourage take-up by schools?
I also strongly support my noble friend Lord Mawson’s plea, echoed by my noble friend Lord Clancarty, for the Government to help the music sector apply its own creative and entrepreneurial skills to expand its sources of support, for example through crowdfunding or social media-based initiatives.
Music and the arts represent a huge and valuable asset to the UK. Of course money is tight, but with the vast array of talent available among our musicians, schools, conservatoires, training bodies, orchestras and opera companies, and the goodwill and support of government at all levels, and of all of us who are passionate about the arts, the UK can surely continue to lead the world in the range, quality and sheer brilliance of its music and cultural organisations, to our enormous cultural and economic benefit.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for tabling this debate today and pay tribute to his ground-breaking work as a social entrepreneur. I also thank all other noble Lords who have spoken in this debate today. I apologise if I do not, in the short time available, pick up all the points that have been made.
It is a topical and challenging question: to what extent should government subsidise the arts and to what extent should they be expected to stand alone? It is impossible to address this without taking stock of the current arts-funding landscape, as a number of noble Lords have already done today.
First, we have to acknowledge the backdrop to this debate, which is that of course the arts make a substantial economic contribution to this country. They make Britain an attractive place to visit, to live, and to invest in. The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, made a good point about the delicate ecosystem that underpins this arrangement. It is not just about economic advantage. A whole range of other advantages come from our thriving arts culture, including improvements to the nation’s health and well-being and the provision of a critical impetus for regional economic regeneration around the country.
However, there is a real danger that we are taking this global advantage for granted rather than investing in and nurturing the next generation of creative performers and leaders. Nowhere is that complacency starker than in the sidelining of arts subjects in the national curriculum, which this House has debated on a number of occasions. Those subjects are being systematically dropped by ambitious schools that want to be seen to be performing well and moving up the league tables. As a result, the take-up of GCSEs in subjects like music, art and drama is falling. That is combined with a squeeze on funding for specialist teachers in schools and the failure of alternative initiatives such as the community music hubs to take off in a systematic way.
As a number of noble Lords have already argued, this neglect of the arts in schools is exacerbated by the funding pressures on local community and regional arts centres. Those are the places where young people get their first real taste of watching or participating in live events. They can inspire and thrill, sowing the seeds of a lifelong love of the arts in young people—and in those places we find the risk takers and innovators of the future.
However, local councils are increasingly being forced to prioritise their limited spending on the statutory services for which they are responsible. Therefore, even though many of them understand the importance of the arts as having value in themselves and also playing a role in attracting businesses and visitors, the burden of the 33% cuts takes an inevitable toll on the local cultural life they are able to fund. The Arts Council has repeatedly made the point that it cannot be expected to plug the hole in local government arts expenditure. In any case how could it, when its own grant from central government has faced substantial cuts—reduced by 30% in one year alone?
Sadly, therefore, the picture on the ground of local and regional art centres is of retreat and decline, with many places losing the skills and expertise necessary to find new sources of funding such as new sponsors, grants or earned income. Therefore when the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, challenges us to find new ways to help fund arts organisations, my answer is that he is right to pose the question, but the prerequisite must be a greater recognition across government of the centrality of the arts to our nation’s success, both now and in the future. That cross-government challenge is not being addressed appropriately by the Government at this time. Perhaps the Minister can address that in his response.
What is lacking is a sustainable funding model that has buy-in from all sectors. It should include a statutory provision for national and local government and a new definition of the role of arm’s-length bodies and of the lottery, as well as identifying newer sources of funding, including the role that innovative tax incentives can play. For example, the Government have made great play of the increased role that individuals can play, and undoubtedly more can be done. However, all the evidence so far points to philanthropic giving being focused on the large institutions, with smaller local and regional organisations being squeezed out. We could also do a great deal more to transform the banking sector so that it better understands the role that the cultural sector can play and is prepared to invest in those start-ups.
What is lacking is a cross-departmental plan to look at the sector afresh, realise the many benefits it brings in cash and in kind and underpin it with a realistic financial strategy. The alternative is a route of decline and frustration which will rob our economy of a great opportunity and our young people of a vibrant, creative future. I look forward to the noble Lord’s response to those concerns.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)
My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, on securing this debate and, indeed, acknowledge the great practical experience that he brings to it. The debate has been illuminating with so much expertise having been shown across the House. Some of your Lordships have expressed concern about this issue but I say at the outset that the Government strongly support the arts and culture. I hope that, during the few moments I have in which to speak, I can demonstrate how and why the Government feel so strongly about them.
Over the lifetime of this Parliament, the Government have put in about £7 billion of public and lottery funding into the arts, museums and heritage sectors. Despite necessary pressures on government spending—your Lordships are aware of the economic climate in which we live—the importance of the arts and museums was recognised in the previous spending round. The DCMS provides grant in aid funding to the Arts Council England, the British Film Institute, 15 sponsored museums, the British Library and the Renaissance programme for regional museums. Many of your Lordships have mentioned the regions, which I will also refer to. We also secured a strong capital settlement for English Heritage, the National Heritage Memorial Fund and the Churches Conservation Trust. My noble friend Lord Cormack spoke passionately about cathedrals and I know that Lincoln Cathedral has a very special place in his heart. I am aware of its at-risk status, so I am very conscious of what he said. I am also very conscious of what the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Worcester said about cathedrals and churches. The Government are actively considering ways to support cathedrals. I would very much welcome having a conversation with my noble friend and, indeed, the right reverend Prelate, after this debate so that we can have a proper talk about these matters because cathedrals and churches are very much part of the fabric of our nation.
Our rich heritage and vibrant culture of art, film, literature, dance and music delight and inspire the nation as well as the world. I make no apology for saying that the UK creative industries were worth £71.4 billion in 2012 and are, indeed, outperforming many other sectors of our economy. The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, with all her experience of filmmaking, sees much going on which is of great value to many people.
From April 2012, we increased the share of National Lottery funding for the arts to 20%, which I think was a very positive step. The Arts Council’s investment programme for 2015 is now open, with £570 million available from the Arts Council to invest in the arts and museums in 2015-16. The Arts Council also offered an additional fund for libraries as well as a creative industry finance scheme offering business development support for creative industry enterprises. In addition, the Heritage Lottery Fund has around £375 million a year to invest in new projects.
As regards philanthropy, we are working with cultural organisations in London and the regions to encourage the development of other sources of income, including philanthropic giving and independent fundraising. In our opinion, philanthropy is not a substitute for public subsidy but should be seen as one element of a mixed-funding model. The noble Lord, Lord Mawson, spoke powerfully about this mix and gave examples of success derived from the entrepreneurial spirit and, indeed, most importantly, from community engagement. I congratulate him and the local community at Blackheath on providing such a great asset for the community and beyond. Being an “original green”, I was very taken by the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, on the ecosystem because we want to secure a future for talent across the country. The skills and apprenticeships in the creative industries are a vital part of the next generation being part of this great sector.
The department, in partnership with the Arts Council and the Heritage Lottery Fund, established a £100-million Catalyst programme—a private-giving investment initiative for arts and heritage organisations. Indeed, I read the article on orchestras that the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, spoke about, and I was relieved that a number of orchestras have been supported through the Catalyst endowments awards fund. I was also interested in what your Lordships said about regional funding. I make no particular plug for London, having so many interests outside London. I am thinking here of the Philharmonia Orchestra, which may be based in London and gains funding, but which spends much of its existence outside London touring, as do so many organisations in the theatre world. The Arts Council has invested £400 million over this Parliament in classical music organisations. I am, however, very much aware of what was said in that article and we need to see whether there are ways in which we can sustain and support them in what are challenging times. I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, for raising that point.
Catalyst has awarded more than 400 grants to help numerous organisations strengthen their fundraising abilities and diversify their revenue sources. The DCMS is also looking at ways in which private giving can be increased through tax incentives. The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, talked of tax reliefs. The film, high-end TV and animation tax reliefs have been vital in supporting our creative industries, and we will be consulting shortly on a theatre tax relief, which will be helpful in both London and the regions.
Turning to the community arts sector, there are approximately 49,000 community arts groups in England, with an estimated 9.4 million people participating in arts-based activities on a regular basis. I suspect that many of those are the sorts of people that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, would be thinking of. Unlocking new revenue streams can be challenging for those organisations, and the Cabinet Office, alongside the Arts Council, the DCMS and a group of other organisations, is exploring the development of a fund to provide long-term social investment capital to arts organisations. I shall certainly be reporting back on this debate and the remarks that have been made by your Lordships, particularly those made by the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, on the entrepreneurial spirit and, indeed, his own experiences of that.
This group has also designed a programme to help arts organisations to take on investment through the Cabinet Office’s existing investment and contract readiness fund—a £10-million fund which provides grants to social ventures. There are many ways in which this Government support culture across the country beyond direct monetary investment. To promote our exceptional arts, cultural and heritage institutions overseas, the Government’s GREAT campaign continues to promote the best of what Britain has to offer. In 2013, the total value of tourism spend directly and indirectly in Britain is projected to be £127 billion—9% of the UK economy. I say that not just for the economy, as it were. I speak of it because of the employment that it provides, and the entrepreneurial and apprenticeship opportunities. That is the mix that we should be seeking to secure. Culture is central to that campaign. Our iconic cultural assets are often the most easily recognisable statement of what makes Britain great.
I would like to refer quickly to the First World War centenary because there will be a very significant cultural programme as part of the commemoration of the four years of that simply dreadful war.
The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, mentioned the Creative Industries Council. It was set up by government but it is now industry-led. I am conscious of what the noble Earl said and I will report back on it. The council has been working to identify key barriers to growth for the sector, with activities focusing on access to finance, skills, exports and inward investment, copyright, and data collection. We are working with the industry to see how it can best implement its growth strategy, which will be published later this year.
Culture in this country is delivered by a great many organisations and, as the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, reminded us, by people—artists, scientists, musicians, writers, filmmakers, actors and so many more. I was also particularly interested in the reference by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Worcester to the Hive, this great new opportunity of partnership, and the National Libraries Day last Saturday. But many national organisations are supporting smaller regional organisations and a great deal of lottery funding is going into the regions.
As time is not on my side, I would like to write more fully on where we are with regional funding of the arts because there are some particular figures on Arts Council and lottery funding, which take over 70% into the regions. It would be best if I referred to that more fully then.
I am conscious of the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, particularly about cuts. I acknowledge those. I understand why there is concern. It is why many councils are looking innovatively at how they develop services differently and more efficiently. That is why the Arts Council has a part to play in assisting and promoting culture with local authorities and there are so many examples—whether you look at the Hepworth Wakefield, the Mary Rose in Portsmouth or the City of Culture in Hull—where much good work is being done.
There is so much to say on arts and culture. On education, for example, the Government believe that there should be strong artistic, arts and music elements to education. I will write more fully about that. We are looking at ways in which we can support arts and culture in innovative ways to find new ways of doing things and setting up new partnerships. That is where we should be. That is why for all the reasons and many more that have been articulated today, particularly so ably led by the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, we all seek a thriving future for arts and culture. We should champion them.
Forestry: Independent Panel Report
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have for the expansion and management of the public forest estate following the report of the Independent Panel on Forestry.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, you may wonder why, when all has been quiet on the forest front for some time, I tabled this Question for Short Debate. Well, the long silence was my catalyst. It is more than 18 months since the Independent Panel on Forestry published its excellent report and more than a year since the Government published their Government Forestry and Woodlands Policy Statement, which incorporated their response to the report. It is also almost the anniversary of the debate initiated by the Bishop of Liverpool, who did such a splendid job as chair of the independent panel and whom we miss greatly.
I am delighted that the right reverend Prelates the Bishop of Worcester and the Bishop of St Albans, are speaking today. I can see the diocese of the former from the Forest of Dean and the former Bishop of St Albans, Bishop Christopher, was born in the forest so I feel a very strong link. Bishops up and down the country, including my own right reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Gloucester, and my friend and almost neighbour, the former Bishop of Guildford, have done a superb job in supporting our forests and woodlands.
My own interest in this issue is clear and strong. I live in the Forest of Dean, I am a forester, and I am proud of our strong community and our thriving culture and traditions which are rooted in the forest. Indeed, “We like the trees seek the light” was my school’s motto. I am also a member of the steering committee of Hands Off Our Forest—HOOF—the campaign that led the country in its fight against the sale of our forests, when people from all parts of the country and all walks of life rose in protest.
In their statement published last January the Government said that they would establish,
“via legislation a new, operationally-independent Public Forest Estate management body to hold the Estate in trust for the nation. It will be charged with generating a greater proportion of its income through appropriate commercial activity and with maximising the social, environmental and economic value of the assets under its care”.
There was much anticipation, and I know that Defra has had many discussions, including with the National Forestry Forum, but there has been no visible action in terms of legislation. The Minister, told me in a letter of 6 January, for which I am grateful, that,
“we remain committed to bringing forward legislation to establish the new public body to manage the Public Forest Estate when parliamentary time allows”,
and,
“that we intend to subject draft legislation on this matter to full pre-legislative scrutiny”.
I welcome both those commitments but I cannot accept that the legislation has not been forthcoming because of a lack of parliamentary time. The Commons have been twiddling their legislative thumbs for weeks, with most of their days filled with Back-Bench and Opposition debates. There was ample time to undertake pre-legislative scrutiny on a draft Bill and then perhaps make the Bill a carryover.
As everyone including the Minister recognised, there needs to be a long consultation on a Bill that in essence determines the future of our forests and woodlands. I fear that the Government are now running out of time. I would be grateful for an assurance that a Bill will be announced in the Queen’s Speech and that adequate time will be made available for consultation and pre-legislative scrutiny before it begins its legislative process through both Houses. I am conscious of the fact that, knowing that the general election will take place in 448 days, time is of the essence.
Noble Lords may wonder why I am so anxious to have a Bill. The people living in and around our forests, the people who enjoy all that they have to offer and the fantastic people who work for the Forestry Commission are concerned about lack of action. Everyone was delighted by the Government’s very positive response to the independent panel’s report and by the commitment to retaining the public forest estate in public ownership and to extending it, but what now? There is a feeling of uncertainty and insecurity.
The Forestry Commission is still doing a magnificent job but its challenges grow by the day as its numbers dwindle. I would be grateful if the Minister could update us on the number of people currently working for the commission, the number of jobs lost since 2010 and the number of jobs that are still to be lost. I realise that all departments have had to make cuts and that the burdens on Defra are immense due to the floods—burdens which are likely to be increased as a result of climate change—but the management of our forests and woodlands should be a priority, not least because of their role in a low-carbon economy and climate change mitigation. We should not forget that the Forestry Commission is the largest provider of countryside recreation opportunities in England and that those have a real impact on the physical and mental health and well-being of the nation.
I turn to what the Government Forestry and Woodlands Policy Statement—Implementation Plan stated will be,
“a new, operationally-independent Public Forest Estate management body to hold the estate in trust for the nation and manage its resources effectively to maximise the value of the land, trees and other assets under its care”.
I remind noble Lords of the recommendation from the independent panel. It said:
“We propose that the public forest estate should remain in public ownership and be defined in statute as land held in trust for the nation. A Charter should be created for the English public forest estate, to be renewed every ten years. The Charter should specify the public benefit mission and statutory duties, and should be delivered through a group of Guardians, or Trustees, who will be accountable to Parliament. The Guardians will oversee the new public forest management organisation evolved from Forest Enterprise England.”
That is very good.
Defra has published 10 core principles for the PFE management body. Those are welcome and reflect much of the ethos of the independent report, although they lack one core duty which was recommended: to promote, expand and enhance public access to woodlands. I would be grateful for an assurance from the Minister that this important principle has not been lost. That notwithstanding, the principles appear to offer a welcome framework but no information has been forthcoming about the body itself, and that raises concerns for many people in the Forest of Dean and, I suspect, the people of Cannock Chase, Sherwood Forest and Delamere Forest to name but a few. What sort of PFE management body is being proposed and is it in line with the panel’s recommendations?
There are rumours that the body will be a public corporation with an executive board. If this were to be the case, there would be much anxiety about the future of our forests and the potential threat of future privatisation. I well understand that the Government have categorically said that the public forest estate must remain in public ownership, and I am grateful, but it is imperative that the necessary safeguards are in place to ensure that our public forests are truly secure. Establishing a body that could be prey to future privatisation does not provide that security. Indeed, I suggest that the setting up of a public corporation could facilitate rather than inhibit future privatisation of the estate, in whole or in part.
What about the membership of the board? I ask for an assurance that it would be a mixed board with proper representation of stakeholders, for example from forest communities, NGOs and forest industries. Naturally, I recognise that the board must consider economic objectives as well as public value with commercial freedoms while protecting the estate, but there must be a balance, and this balance must be reflected in the membership of the board. The board must value the estate in terms of wildlife, access, recreation, education and cultural heritage as well as considering income generation.
I mentioned earlier the charter and the guardians which were critical recommendations from the panel. I understand that it is the Government’s intention to publish a charter alongside a draft Bill. This must mean that the charter will have no statutory authority, and I wonder whether it will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny. I very much hope that it will be. Its purpose is too important to relegate it to a mere mission statement.
I believe that the role of the guardians is fundamental to the protection of the public forest estate but also to public confidence. The independent panel was clear that their role was vital, but I fear that the Government are intent on watering down their envisaged role. A right to appeal to the Secretary of State against decisions taken by the board of the new public body is simply not enough. They need powers to intervene when decisions are taken by the board which are detrimental to the public forest estate, for example in relation to land sales. Will the Minister confirm that it is currently the Government’s intention that the Secretary of State will be the only person with the power of veto on land disposals or change of land use?
I realise that we have travelled a long way since the publication of the original Public Bodies Bill in 2010, and I pay tribute to the way in which the Government have listened, consulted and embraced many of the challenges set by the Bishop of Liverpool and his colleagues, but we are still on a journey and neither my party nor my friends in the forest will rest until we are confident that the future of our publicly owned forests and woodlands is truly secure, and this means confidence in the establishment of the new management body, the charter and the guardians. I have to agree with the concern expressed by the RSPB in its very good briefing that the recommendations of the independent panel are being lost in translation during the Bill drafting stages.
I urge the Government to maintain the integrity of the recommendations in the draft Bill that I hope that they will bring forward in the very near future. This would demonstrate that they really can see the wood for the trees. I finish by thanking the Minister and all noble Lords for participating in this debate and by quoting the poetic words of Bishop James:
“Our forests and woods are nature’s playground for the adventurous, museum for the curious, hospital for the stressed, cathedral for the spiritual, and a livelihood for the entrepreneur. They are a microcosm of the cycle of life in which each and every part is dependent on the other; forest and woods are the benefactor of all, purifying the air that we breathe and distilling the water of life. In short, trees are for life”.
Lord Eden of Winton (Con)
My Lords, I am sure the whole House thanks the noble Baroness for tabling this Question. I will echo some of the points that she made during her interesting speech.
I shall start by once again congratulating the Bishop of Liverpool and his team on the report of the Independent Panel on Forestry. It is well crafted, comprehensive and constructive. I also welcome the Government’s new policy and proposals for the public forest estate. We are fortunate that at Defra we have a very strong team of Ministers, among whom is my noble friend who is replying to this debate. He has real understanding, experience and knowledge of environmental issues. The Ministers are supported by many enlightened officials whose advice I know is frequently sought far beyond these shores. I am optimistic that we are possibly on the brink of exciting developments in the forestry sector, but forgive me if my optimism is tempered by some degree of caution.
For a moment I want to look at the international scene. Despite meetings, conventions and declarations of good intentions, the destruction of our tropical rainforest continues. Tree cover, so crucial for worldwide climate conditions, is still being ravaged to make way for oil palms, soya and cattle. I know that this is not the occasion and I do not have the time to go into it in any detail but, unless we take the warnings seriously enough, it may prove to be too late for effective action to preserve what remains.
For decades, His Royal Highness Prince Charles has spelt out the dire consequences that will follow if we carry on damaging the environment on which we depend. Being a largely urban population, we are in danger of becoming too remote from the natural world. Very often, we have no idea what is being done in our name. Consider for a moment the operation of the food chain. A recent publication, called Farmageddon, describes how, to satisfy mass demand for milk, eggs, bacon and other foods, the treatment of our domestic animals is in some cases horrendous.
While I am cautiously optimistic, I see these proposals on forestry as a much needed step change in our attitude towards the natural world. We should try to avoid approaching it piecemeal; we need to look at it nationwide, over our land as a whole. But how will all this be achieved? There is a remarkable array of agencies, organisations and initiatives, all committed to supporting biodiversity and sustainable growth in our woods and forests. The hope must be that they will work together and co-ordinate their endeavours, but even more is needed. We should go beyond government to businesses, landowners, schools and societies such as the RSPB, the Ramblers and the National Trust, as well as to the designers and contractors of road and rail communications and, most importantly, the broadcast media. The BBC, through its wonderful wildlife programmes, has shown what can be done to educate the public about the realities of nature, which must also apply to trying to achieve wider knowledge and understanding of the significance and importance of tree cover in our country.
In addition, there is the most impressive list of supporters for Grown in Britain, a brilliant concept. As the Secretary of State Owen Paterson wrote in his foreword to the report,
“Dr Bonfield sets out the actions taken to put forestry on a firmer economic footing”.
I stress the words “economic footing”. That is a point that needs to register with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Although it may not be possible to set it out in strictly monetary terms, there is economic value attaching to all our woods and forests and in the wonderful biodiversity of our beautiful landscape. That should be a factor in every corporate, local government and national balance sheet.
In conclusion, I have to ask again: how will all this be achieved? The answer has to be through leadership from the top. We would be right to look to the Prime Minister to set a firm timetable for progress. I hope that then, as these plans for the public forest estate come to fruition, increasing numbers of people, young and old alike, will experience the values and many benefits that can come from a walk along a path through the woods.
Baroness Parminter (LD)
I add my thanks to those of my noble friend to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, for securing this debate today and for being such a formidable champion on behalf of our precious trees.
The noble Baroness said that there was strong support for the Government’s forestry and woodlands policy statement in January last year, which set out a clear vision for expanding England’s woodland cover while protecting our trees from the ever-increasing range and scale of threats, recognising that woodland assets would deliver benefits for society and the environment as well as contributing to economic growth. A commitment to legislate for a new forestry body was a central plank in the delivery of that vision.
The stakeholder consultation closed on the funding, governance and purposes of our new body. The presentation to the National Forestry Stakeholder Forum on 29 January outlined, as the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, said, the 10 core principles underpinning Defra’s plans. While they were broadly welcomed, they left much unsaid. Big questions remain about the contractual relationship of the body with Defra, and the body’s remit, scope and duties. I add my voice to hers in asking when the Government intend to bring forward a draft Bill to allow for necessary pre-legislative scrutiny.
It is clear that woodland and forests offer good opportunities to deliver manifold environmental and public goods, from carbon capture to providing habitats for wildlife and flora, and places that people want to share. They want to go out and explore our glorious countryside. At a time like this, we should not forget how afforestation can help to reduce the risk of flooding.
I want to pick up on one of those 10 principles outlined to stakeholders on 29 January—that the new public forestry body should be a pioneer in natural capital accounting and payment for ecosystem services. As the Woodland Trust said, this is an opportunity for the forestry sector to,
“demonstrate its value to society”.
One way to ensure that development does not lead to erosion of natural capital assets is a well designed biodiversity offsetting scheme. The Government’s Green Paper consultation on biodiversity offsetting is now concluded. Liberal Democrats are clear that the guiding principle for any offsetting scheme should be that there is a net environmental and biodiversity gain. Equally, and in contrast to the views of the Secretary of State, habitats such as ancient woodlands are irreplaceable, and as such should not be included in any scheme.
Decisions about biodiversity offsetting are important for the future of the public forest estate, given that it has huge potential to provide offset sites for any market-based scheme. It is ideally placed to deliver landscape-scale projects and the wider benefits that they can deliver. The Lawton report in 2010 made clear that nature areas that are linked together have a greater ecological value than similar areas of natural environment that are broken up and separated. This view was endorsed in the Government’s 2011 environment White Paper. Given its importance to the future of the public forest estate, can the Minister say when the Government will make clear their intentions about introducing a biodiversity offsetting scheme?
All three legislatures in England, Scotland and Wales are keen to see substantial levels of new woodland planting over a substantial period. It is important that non-market values are taken into account in decisions about the future locations of Britain’s new woodlands, thereby ensuring that we maximise the value for agriculture and timber outputs, climate change mitigation and recreational opportunities. This would make a reality of the threefold mandate, as outlined in the core principles for the new public forestry estate of enhancing the estate for the benefit of people, nature and the economy.
If we do not do that, we face the danger of locating new forests in areas that do not deliver all the benefits that society and the economy need. We could pick locations, for example, that maximise value of timber production but do not help tackle flooding in key catchments, or maximise greenhouse gas capture but do not help to increase recreational opportunities near our major urban conurbations. Such decisions need to be looked at using the right decision-making framework, and I therefore look forward this spring to the annual update from the Natural Capital Committee, set up by this Government, on its work in ensuring that natural capital accounting is embedded in decision-making. The successful completion of that work could be as important in delivering the future we all want for our British forests and woodland as the legislation necessary to put the public forest estate on a more sustainable footing.
The Lord Bishop of St Albans
My Lords, I was eager to participate in this debate and I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, for raising this vital issue, which has touched the nerves of so many people right across the country, in every part of our nation. I want to pick up four details of the Government’s response. They are minor, not major, points but I hope that they will be helpful.
The first is to build on the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, about the unprecedented levels of flooding that we are having in the UK. Over the past week, I have been in touch with many individuals and groups across the country who are working in the 13 dioceses most badly affected by flooding —noble Lords will be aware of many of them; indeed, many will know some of them—in preparation for a meeting that I had yesterday morning with the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley. I am very grateful to him for giving me, two of my colleagues and some staff time to talk about some of the issues.
A typical response that I received was from the chair of the Plymouth and Exeter district of the Methodist Church, who wrote precisely about the connection between trees and flooding:
“The failure to dredge the rivers is only part of the problem. Not only are measures needed to increase the flow of water off the moors and levels, but the flow onto them is just as much a problem.
Over the last 30 years there has been little integrated thinking about the whole river catchment area—essentially the whole of Somerset and a small part of Dorset. In the upstream areas changes of crop patterns, removal of hedgerows and land drainage improvements, as well as domestic building, have increased flow levels into the rivers. 30 years ago, according to one of our church stewards, a farmer, it took two days between rain and the flooding of the levels. Today it can be as little as two hours. In the last two days flood levels … were raised by a metre overnight.
This is a complex ecosystem which needs to be treated as a single system not as lots of bits under different organisations, drainage boards, district councils, county council, Environment Agency etc.
The solution is not just dredging, though this will help, but tree planting in the upper reaches of the system and other measures to slow flows onto the levels down. A 5 year old tree plantation can absorb 60 times the water of pasture land and much more than this compared to harvested maize fields which after an autumn harvest leave bare, compacted earth over acres of the catchment area”.
It seemed to me that that was an extraordinary thing to receive in the past couple of days, and I wanted to raise it with your Lordships.
In this debate, we are concerned not just with leisure and the economy—although that is terribly important for woodland—but with the protection of thousands of homes and businesses. Flood protection, and the planting of trees to help with that, has a strong economic benefit. Can Her Majesty’s Government ensure that there is as much joined-up thinking as possible in the aftermath of this flooding, including tree planting?
Secondly, some weeks ago I put down a Written Question to ask Her Majesty’s Government,
“whether they are taking steps to ensure that the collective knowledge and experience of Regional Advisory Committee staff is being retained within the new Forestry and Woodlands Advisory Committees”.
Again, I am grateful for the response from the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley. He replied:
“Around 40% of the current Forestry and Woodlands Advisory Committee membership previously served on the Regional Advisory Committees”.—[Official Report, 15/1/14; col. WA 22.]
Unfortunately, in the past we have seen examples where we have lost from such bodies experienced people who understand woodlands. I urge Her Majesty’s Government to ensure that we do not lose the contribution of such skilled people so that we not only maintain our woodlands but increase them.
Thirdly, the report of the Independent Panel on Forestry contained a section on “Trees in our neighbourhoods”. The section entitled “Aspiration” states that it believes that we need,
“more, and better maintained trees, close to where people live. This means more trees on urban streets, more trees in town parks, and tree ‘corridors’ from the centre of towns and cities out to local woods and forests with good access”.
I am glad that the Big Tree Plant funding scheme, run by Forestry Commission England, is giving £4 million in grants to community organisations between 2011 and 2015 to support the planting of 1 million trees, but the question I want to ask is: what will happen after 2015? This needs to be a long-term project that enhances the urban environment. Anecdotally, I know of two communities that feel that their local council positively discourages tree planting in urban areas. I hope that local councils will be required to address this important area in the legislation for which the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, is rightly calling.
Finally, perhaps I may share a thought about the potential of woodland in addressing another challenge—namely the acute shortage of land for burial. There are now around 40 woodland burial sites in the UK. In my own diocese of St Albans we have our own St Albans Woodland Burial Trust, which is in north Bedfordshire near the village of Keysoe. It is 12 acres of land surrounded by 60 acres of woodland. There is a very real and sensible concern, as the noble Lord, Lord Eden, pointed out, about the economics of how all this will work—how we are to pay for the upkeep of our woodlands as the surpluses from the sale of timber are likely to decline because we have, of course, been harvesting it rather effectively. In some places there is the potential—admittedly very small potential—for a small section of woodland to be used for green burials. In our woodland burial site, a single grave space costs £700; to bury cremated remains costs £180. You have to be buried in a biodegradable coffin. You can have only a wooden memorial—you cannot have stone headstones—so eventually they will simply disintegrate and rot way and the woodland will be left as woodland. In addition, many people want to plant a tree in memory of their loved one, and for that privilege they are paying £100 a time. In other words, they are paying to plant the forest. Some of these sites are cared for by volunteers, so the cost is small—just a few hours’ administration, as in our own diocesan woodland burial site. Could this not be one small way in which we can pay for the planting of more trees and find a modest amount of further funding for our woodlands?
Lord Patten (Con)
I am very happy to follow the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans in his very clear exposé of the close links between flooding and forestry and woodlands, and I agree with everything that he said. However, one way of mitigating flood risk is by trees in catchment areas fixing soil and diminishing run-off, whether they are part of the public or the private forest estate. A great strength of the independent panel’s report is that it does not erect a conceptual iron curtain between the two spheres in its powerful recommendations, rather it links the public and the private estates. I know that that is welcomed by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall of Blaisdon.
These recommendations are far-sighted stuff, as one would expect from anything chaired by Bishop James—a man of great spirituality, huge insight and equally great intellectual bandwidth, which has enabled him to range, as he has in recent years, over everything from helping victims in Hillsborough seek some kind of solace to his great report on woodlands and forests with his colleagues. The recommendations say clearly that England’s woods and forests should be revalued for all that they provide, from recreation via clean air and water to wildlife habitats and flood reduction. That was prescient stuff when the then Lord Bishop of Liverpool wrote it with his colleagues back in 2012. Living in Somerset I recognise that it was indeed very prescient—we have much flooding but some of the lowest acreage of woodland in southern England. Both the polders that are the levels in Somerset and the few patches of woodland that we have are manmade. There is no ancient forest of any sort at all. What is there is in specimen trees, coppices and shelter belts.
As I am sure both right reverend Prelates would recognise, from every stance, planting any tree is an act of faith. Few of us live long enough to see a sapling in magnificent maturity in future years. However, all trees play as vital a role in water as in carbon capture—and again the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans recognised that point. They also play a great role in and around housing, as in open fields. That is why I applaud the conclusion of the report, at page 58, where it calls for planning policy and building practice to:
“Ensure woodland creation, tree planting and maintenance is part of the green space plan for … housing development”.
This is especially so where such housing is being constructed on steeply sloping land which is naturally prone to water run-off before any concrete is poured or asphalt is laid.
Let me give one such specific example which is currently under construction at New Barns Farm on the edge of Wincanton in Somerset. Incidentally, this is not a piece of housing development that is in my backyard in any way; I have no interest to declare here. More than 250 homes are to be built. I recognise that we need such homes on greenfield sites when all the local brownfield land has gone, and I support the policy. The site is on a hilltop with very steep slopes going down to the River Cale, a small stream that after a few miles across the Blackmore Vale becomes a tributary of the River Stour in Dorset, which itself has been subject since Christmas to a number of red danger to life signs because of massive flooding. When the site was first developed, it was excellently landscaped by a local developer, the Abbey Manor Group of Yeovil. Again I have no interest to declare because I do not know the company. Before the first houses were even started, the company ensured that good hedges and fencing were put in, and quite a wide shelter belt was planted at the top of the slope. It was sited exactly where it should be. Everything was maturing nicely before the site was sold on to a publicly listed company called Bovis Homes. My noble friend Lord Eden of Winton referred to the need for corporations to pay attention to this kind of thing. Since the site was sold on, I am afraid that there has been a spot of what one can only call environmental vandalism. Part of the shelter belt has been cut into, trees have been cut down and failing trees have not been replaced. Trees that were leaning have been left until they fall over. Gardens for the newly built houses have been encouraged to go into the shelter belt, which has led to more tree cutting.
Over the past sodden days we have had a lot of celebrity visitors coming to Somerset for a spot of grief tourism and photocalls, where people point vacantly at things while the cameras click. My ad hoc survey suggests that green wellington boots have mostly been sported, although we did enjoy the wonderfully bizarre sight of Mr Nigel Farage appearing in the Somerset Levels wearing chest waders and a jaunty cap. It must have been some sort of fashion statement while he posed for his photographs. I wonder whether the chairman of Bovis Homes, Mr Ian Tyler, and his chief executive officer, Mr David Ritchie, might put on their gumboots and come and see what their company is doing to the landscape.
What has been happening will exacerbate rather than help to control the run-off of water in this area of Somerset in the future. The behaviour of this company is bad for its business and bad for its relationship with the local authority, South Somerset District Council. I am broad-minded: it is Liberal but it is quite a good council in terms of planning matters. It has been having a bad time because it was given unfulfilled undertakings by Bovis Homes to replant the trees and maintain the woodland. That has not happened for the past three years. This is very bad for the image of Bovis Homes in terms of meeting its corporate social responsibilities for the environment. If only the noble Baroness, Lady Royall of Blaisdon, was free of her Front Bench duties, I would recommend the all-male board of Bovis Homes to hire her instantly as a non-executive director to sort out its gross failures. It is certainly very bad for water run-off and flood risk.
I am talking about what may be only a few dozen trees, but as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans has just said, a few dozen trees here and there mean that, over time, those trees will make an integrated contribution to mitigating floodwater run-off. The whole building industry urgently needs to revisit its role and responsibilities in these critical issues. I do not know what the situation looks like in the diocese of Worcester, which I know has quite a lot of trees and has had quite a lot of flooding. I look forward to hearing what the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Worcester has to say about it, associating myself if I may with the best wishes of we web-footed ones in Somerset.
The Lord Bishop of Worcester
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, for securing this debate. Like her, I am a great lover of the Forest of Dean, which until recently was part of the diocese of Worcester. When I say “recently”, I mean the 16th century, but what are a few centuries in the life of the church or, indeed, in the life of a forest? I pay tribute to her for her work, as I do, along with other noble Lords, to the recently retired Bishop of Liverpool for his significant contribution to the welfare of our forests made as chairman of the Independent Panel on Forestry.
As has already been observed in this debate, the estate provides enormous benefits in all sorts of ways: ecological, economic and, perhaps most importantly, in terms of people. Research has shown that regular access to woodlands leads to a healthier population in body, mind and soul. People feel recharged by encounter with woodland. It reaches the soul in a way that other landscapes very often cannot. It is no wonder that Thomas Merton, the celebrated monastic hermit who lived alone in the woods of central Kentucky, found the experience there and the silence provided by his simple home of vital importance. He wrote:
“I cannot have enough of the hours of silence when nothing happens. When the clouds go by. When the trees say nothing. When the birds sing. I am completely addicted to the realization that just being there is enough, and to add something else is to mess it all up”.
It is not for nothing that the Book of Revelation refers to the leaves of the trees being for the healing of the nations.
That is all the more important in this country at this time. No generation has lived more remote from the land than ours, the majority of people being urban dwellers. It means that places such as the Wyre Forest in my diocese and within very close reach of the great urban sprawl of Birmingham—which until recently was part of the diocese of Worcester—adds so much to people’s well-being. There is so much for people to do and take part in there, quite apart being still, from mountain bike trails to going ape like Tarzan in the treetops or partaking in the gentler activities of bird-watching or walking along the trails.
I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure us about the timetable for legislative changes that are ahead. I hope that, when that timetable is announced and the legislation is brought forward, those three areas—people, nature and the economy—are all given equal consideration. As has already been articulated, managing the public forest has in recent years been a careful balancing act between economic, environmental and social or recreational aims.
Reference has already been made by several speakers to the recent floods. The situation in Worcester is very serious—the city is gridlocked as a result of the closure of the bridge in the middle of the city—and is expected to get worse even if no further rain falls. The river peaks in Worcester some four days after the rain stops because the water comes to us as a gift from the people of Wales—which generally is welcome, but they have been somewhat overgenerous in recent times. Attention to woodland far beyond Worcestershire will be needed if floods of the sort which we are experiencing at the moment are not to be repeated. The statistics which the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans quoted about the enormous contribution that woodland can make to soaking water away are pertinent in this regard.
I hope that the governance structure that is developed for the future carefully reflects the balance of people, nature and economy. I want to ask in conclusion one or two specific questions. Reference has already been made to this by the right reverend Prelate, but it seems to me important that continuing measures are put in place to ensure that the collective knowledge and experience of Forestry Commission staff are retained within new organisations to ensure that policy decisions taken today do not have a detrimental effect on trees, forestry and the community when those trees come into maturity—which we will not see—in 40 to 50 years’ time.
I am delighted that the newly formed forestry and woodland advisory committees are beginning their work and will be actively encouraging the protection, expansion and promotion of the agenda of the Forestry Commission. How do Her Majesty’s Government see the role of those groups in future in extending and improving the diverse range of community involvement in woodlands?
Finally, I turn to a detailed but crucial point. As I am sure that we are all well aware, several very serious diseases affecting trees in this country are slowly spreading across the landscape. What steps are being taken to ensure that, with the reorganisation of the responsibilities of the Forestry Commission, important disease prevention, control and elimination not only continues but is strengthened?
Baroness Trumpington (Con)
My Lords, I have listened with enormous interest to the very learned speeches of all those who have been active in this debate today. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, for introducing this subject today because, at the moment, agriculture in every shape and form is so topical and so very difficult for those who are involved. I hope that the Minister may say something about the general picture as well, because it all folds in together.
My only reason for standing up is that I planted the first tree at the national Forestry Commission. I have a photograph of me from the Daily Telegraph which proves that, as I am carrying that wretched tree in order to plant it. I hope that it has flourished and perhaps given shelter to several, if not many, red squirrels throughout the years and will do so in future.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con)
My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, for calling this debate. I know how passionate she is about the subject and I say humbly that I share that passion. I thank her for her eloquent speech. I strongly agree with almost everything she said, except of course her scepticism about the Government’s intentions.
England’s public forests are a cherished national resource which provides precious habitats for wildlife and natural spaces for people to enjoy, as many noble Lords have said. We want to conserve and enhance them for now and for generations to come. Half of the country’s population lives within six miles of one of the 1,500 individual forests, woodlands and other landscapes that make up the public forest estate. That estate attracts 40 million visits a year, providing a wide range of recreational activities for people to enjoy, from dog walking and picnicking to mountain biking and abseiling. The public forest estate is also a vital natural asset, providing sanctuary for wildlife, as well as carbon storage, water improvement and flood prevention—the importance of which we are all currently extremely conscious, as was referred to by my noble friends Lady Parminter and Lord Patten and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Worcester. The public forest estate is also England’s largest timber producer. It helps to employ about 40,000 people in the forestry, wood products and paper industries, and it supports tens of thousands more jobs in local rural economies through tourism and other commercial activities.
The nation holds those things dear, and so do we. That is why we said in our forestry and woodlands policy statement this time last year that we wanted to establish a new public body, in line with the recommendations of the Independent Panel on Forestry, to hold the estate in trust for the nation. We have no intention of selling off the estate; nor do we have any plans to privatise the body that manages it. Our vision for our public forests is crystal clear. The public forest estate will be safe under the stewardship of the new public body that will own and manage it with a clear remit to conserve and enhance the estate.
Our forests will be better for people, better for nature and better for the economy—that is in answer to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Worcester. No Government can bind future Governments, so no Government can promise that the estate will be protected in perpetuity, but we can put the right safeguards in place to ensure that it is less vulnerable to short-term political demands and ensure that any plans to dispose of it in future will require further primary legislation and be subjected to full parliamentary scrutiny.
We have made good progress over the past year in developing our plans for the new body. We have held numerous meetings with interested parties including Hands Off Our Forest, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, referred, and we are most grateful for their constructive contribution to our thinking. We published some initial thoughts on the shape, structure and governance of the new body last summer, and we received more than 250 helpful comments and suggestions on how we might improve our proposals. We have used these to shape our plans for looking after this unique asset, and at the recent National Forestry Forum my colleague the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Forestry, Dan Rogerson, set out 10 core principles that we are using to underpin the new PFE management body, which I shall set out.
The new body should conserve and enhance the estate for the benefit of people, nature and the economy. The precise wording of its statutory purpose and objectives will be confirmed in due course, although we are clear that the new body should be focused on maintaining the quality of the estate and the benefits that it delivers. It should be publicly owned and operationally independent of Government. We confirmed last year that the estate will remain in public hands, owned and managed by a new public body with a clear remit and no day-to-day involvement from Ministers. It should be underpinned by statute. We intend that the new body will have its own founding legislation. We also intend that it will have a charter, which will amplify its statutory functions and objectives and set out how it will work with others in order to achieve those objectives. It should be managed by experts and have access to the best advice. We intend that the new body will have a management board drawn from across the sectors interested in the public forestry estate. This might include experts from the forestry and timber business sectors as well as recreation, environmental and community interests. It should have commercial freedoms but will be required to protect the estate. Forest Enterprise England currently generates around £50 million a year from its timber production and other trading activities.
We want it to continue to earn income from timber production, tourism, recreation and other commercial ventures but any commercial activity will be subject to relevant planning controls, be justified against the wider interests of the estate and its users and be undertaken in a sensitive way so that the long-term quality of the estate is not put at risk. It should be able to buy and sell land, but any land sales must be for the benefit of the estate. As the panel recommended, we want the new body to be able to buy and sell land as part of its everyday management role. We intend, however, that land sales must be in line with the body’s responsibility for maintaining the quality of the estate and that the income generated should be reinvested in the estate. It should be a pioneer in natural capital accounting and payment for ecosystem services, something that my noble friend Lady Parminter referred to. We are developing a set of natural capital accounts for the PFE. These will be used as a baseline for assessing the performance of the new body and will help to inform the innovative funding arrangement that we are currently exploring for it. This will be based on a contract for the delivery of ecosystem services such as recreation, access and biodiversity.
It should work closely with local communities, estate users and businesses. It should have consultation at its heart. Forest Enterprise England already has a good track record of involving local communities in the management of the estate. We intend that the new body should build on this track record and be as open and transparent as possible in everything that it does. It should be an exemplar of sustainable forest management. We want the new body to be widely respected and regarded as a good manager of our public woodlands. It should build on the strengths of Forest Enterprise England, which currently does a good job in managing the estate and has a highly skilled and committed workforce. There is always room for improvement but we believe that the new body should build on the strengths of its predecessor and, over time, become an even better trustee for our vital public forests.
I turn to noble Lords’ questions. The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Worcester asked about legislation. As I have said, we are working on how we might establish the new body. Good progress is being made but our priority must be to get things right because forestry, as noble Lords have said, is for the long term and forestry legislation must last for many years. Therefore, I cannot say at the moment when a Bill might be published. However, I can say that we as a Government remain committed to allowing an opportunity for pre-legislative scrutiny. Once a draft Bill is published, I will of course be very happy to discuss it with noble Lords.
The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, asked about the prospects for Forestry Commission staff. I can say to her that there is absolutely no intention that there should be any redundancies. She also asked about access. We are committed to protecting the public benefits that are currently provided by the public forest estate, including public access. The new management body will ensure that public access to the public forest estate is maintained and improved wherever possible. Current access on foot is guaranteed where the land has been dedicated under the provisions of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act, as all of the freehold estate has been.
The noble Baroness asked about the board. We would like to see the interests of relevant sectors, including local communities, properly represented in the governance arrangements. She also noted the importance of the guardians. We are in the process of determining the final details of the guardians in collaboration with interested parties. We are clear that the guardians will play a vital role in overseeing the conservation and enhancement of the estate for the benefit of people, nature and the economy. They would be drawn from across the full range of interested sectors, including not only forestry and business but also environment, recreation and local community interests, to advise the new body and hold it to account.
The noble Baroness suggested that a public corporation might be a halfway house to privatisation. Public corporation classification has no bearing whatever on whether or not a public body might be privatised. I can confirm that we have no plans to privatise the public forest estate. We are designing the new body to own and manage the estate within the public sector for many years to come.
The noble Baroness mentioned the charter. I have already mentioned that the new body would have a charter which would amplify the statutory duties and objectives in its founding legislation and set out how it plans to work with others to deliver its statutory remit. We intend that this charter would be laid before Parliament.
The noble Baroness asked about land sales. The body will need to be able to buy and sell land as part of its day-to-day management role, as I have mentioned. We intend that there should be appropriate checks and balances to ensure that land sales decisions are in line with the body’s responsibility for maintaining the quality of the estate and that income generated from sales should be reinvested in the estate. We certainly do not intend for it to sell any part of the estate to raise revenue to sustain itself. In answer to her specific question, the Secretary of State will have a veto on land sales. There are no plans for anyone else to have such a veto.
The noble Baroness knows, but I will repeat clearly for the record, that we have no plans whatever to privatise the estate. We are designing the new body to own and manage the public forest estate within the public sector for many years to come.
My noble friend Lord Eden asked about economic benefits. England’s woodland cover is as high as it has been since the 14th century. We want woodland cover in England to increase through planting of the right trees in the right places for the right reasons. We also want more of England’s woodlands to be sustainably managed to maximise their public benefits. We believe that the current rate of planting, of 2,500 hectares per year, can be accelerated and that an eventual level of 15% coverage could be achieved over time. However, this is not a matter just for Government. Conditions need to be in place so that landowners choose to plant trees in locations where it best suits them and their local conditions and priorities.
My noble friend Lord Patten raised the issue of woodland in the context of new housing development. I share his aspiration for people living in new housing developments to benefit from the social and environmental improvements that woodland planting can bring to these sites. There are many good examples of such sympathetic landscaping and planting on developments across the country. I am sorry to hear of the far less successful example to which he referred.
My noble friend Lady Parminter referred to natural capital accounting. I can tell her that good progress is being made on national natural capital accounting. The Natural Capital Committee is working closely with the ONS and Defra to implement the road map to 2020 which the ONS published in December 2012. Early progress had been made with accounts for woodlands. Further work is being taken forward on accounts for enclosed farmlands, wetlands, marine and a more detailed set of accounts for the public forest estate.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Worcester referred to skills and experience, both within the Forestry Commission and more widely. I agree entirely. We are keen to see experience retained and new blood coming in and adding to the skill base and experience levels.
I am being prodded; I have run out of time. One thing that is really important to finish on is the reference made by a number of noble Lords to flooding. The allocation of Defra grant in aid for flood and coastal erosion risk-management projects is undertaken by the Environment Agency. Afforestation is funded where there is sufficient evidence that it will reduce flood risk or for experimental purposes. The Slowing the Flow project in north Yorkshire is an example. In addition, the Forestry Commission has contributed to various assessments of using woodland to alleviate flooding. In 2011 it joint-funded a review called Woodland for Water, which highlighted how woodland could contribute to reducing flood risk as well as deliver other water and wider ecosystem benefits. That led to the development and use of national, regional and catchment “opportunity maps” to direct planting to where woodland would be most effective.
In conclusion, good progress is being made on how we might establish the new body, but our priority must be to get things right. As I have said, forestry is for the long term, and forestry legislation must last for many years. We remain committed to allowing an opportunity for pre-legislative scrutiny. Once a draft Bill is published, I will of course be happy to discuss it with noble Lords.
Hillsborough
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House I will now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary in the House of Commons earlier today. The Statement is as follows:
“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on the Hillsborough stadium tragedy.
It is over a year now since Parliament last debated Hillsborough and the report of the Hillsborough Independent Panel. I hope that the House will join me again in expressing my thanks and gratitude to the panel’s Chairman, Bishop James Jones, as well as to all his colleagues, for their remarkable work.
The contents of the Independent Panel’s report were truly shocking. On the day it was published, the Prime Minister rightly apologised to the families of the 96 for what he described as a ‘double injustice’. The first injustice, he said, was the appalling events. The second was the treatment of the victims by the press.
I would like to pay tribute to the bereaved families, the survivors, and all those who have campaigned on their behalf. As Home Secretary I have met a number of the bereaved families and I have been impressed by the dignified way in which they and their supporters have pursued their search for truth and justice.
I would also like to pay tribute to a number of those in this House who have campaigned on behalf of the families: the right honourable Member for Leigh, Mr Andy Burnham; the honourable gentleman the Member for Liverpool, Walton, Steve Rotheram; the honourable lady the Member for Garston and Halewood, Maria Eagle; and the honourable gentleman the Member for Halton, Derek Twigg.
So significant were the conclusions of the Hillsborough Independent Panel’s report that its publication on 12 September 2012 set in train a number of important events. By the end of that year this had resulted in the quashing by the High Court of the original inquest verdicts and the ordering of fresh inquests, as well as the establishment of two major investigations.
In a debate in this House following the publication of the panel’s report, I said that ‘after truth must come justice; and after the apology, accountability’. As lead Minister within Government it is my responsibility to ensure that the various processes of government and the criminal justice system are working effectively and are properly resourced to ensure that justice can be done, not only for those who died, but just as importantly for their families and for all those who have campaigned on their behalf ever since.
Today I would like to update the House on the progress that has been made, both in respect of the new inquests and the new investigations. First, I will address the inquests. Last year and within two months of the decision by the High Court, Lord Justice Goldring was appointed as the coroner to conduct the fresh inquests. A number of pre-inquest hearings have already been held. The police and the Independent Police Complaints Commission investigations are working in support of the coroner to a timetable determined by him. The Government welcome the fact that Lord Justice Goldring has made it clear that the fresh inquests will start on 31 March.
I have always made it clear that the Government will support the families in their quest for justice. As part of that commitment, the Government are funding a comprehensive legal representation scheme. Work began on this immediately after the original inquest verdicts were quashed, and the scheme which is now in place will ensure that the families are properly represented and supported at the inquests.
In addition to the inquests, there is also the investigative process, of which there are two elements. The first is led by the Independent Police Complaints Commission. This is the IPCC’s biggest ever investigation. Its principal focus is on police involvement in the aftermath of Hillsborough. I think it is worth reminding the House that this includes not just the role and actions of the South Yorkshire Police, the force responsible for policing the match, but also the West Midlands Police. The West Midlands Police had a significant role to play in the aftermath of Hillsborough, providing support to Lord Taylor’s inquiry, producing the report to the Director of Public Prosecutions and assisting the then South Yorkshire West Coroner, Dr Stefan Popper. I can therefore confirm that the experience of survivors, which was again brought to public attention in the past week, is part of the ongoing IPCC investigation.
The second element is a criminal investigation—Operation Resolve—led by Jon Stoddart, the former Chief Constable of Durham. Jon Stoddart was appointed by me in December 2012. His key role is to investigate the deaths at Hillsborough. Working alongside both investigations is a discrete Crown Prosecution Service team, through which lawyers from the CPS provide an ongoing service.
When he was Bishop of Liverpool and sitting in another place, Bishop James Jones said that justice is about process as well as outcomes. The unique, complex and wide-ranging circumstances of Hillsborough meant that there had to be created, from scratch, two major and large-scale investigations. Both had to have firm foundations. Suitable premises had to be found, acquired and fitted out. This has been done. Suitably skilled and appropriate staff had to be identified and recruited. This has also been done. It was inevitable that this would take time, but the investigations are now located together on one site in Warrington, close to the sources of the investigation, and are making good progress.
Like a number of the bereaved families and a number of those in this House, I have been to Warrington to see the investigations for myself. I have met some of the staff from the IPCC and Operation Resolve investigations and I was struck by their dedication and professionalism. I welcome the fact that the IPCC and Operation Resolve want their investigations to be open and transparent, and both investigations have welcomed the opportunity to demonstrate to families the work that they are doing.
I would now like to set out to the House some of the progress being made. First, in respect of the IPCC, more than 1,600 people have now responded to the IPCC’s witness appeal. This includes more than 250 people who have never given accounts before. The IPCC is conducting detailed analysis of every response and is following up the evidence provided. Separately, around 400 witnesses have made requests to the IPCC to see their original statements, and the IPCC is helping people access those statements. In addition, the IPCC has recovered around 2,500 police pocket notebooks. These pocket books had not been made available to previous investigations and are now being analysed by IPCC investigators. The IPCC has also conducted further analysis of the 242 police accounts now believed to have been amended. In this context, they have completed more than 160 interviews, and these interviews continue.
Alongside the IPCC investigation, the police investigation, Operation Resolve, has, first, worked to the coroner’s priorities and timetable, meeting all the deadlines set by him. Secondly, it has worked in parallel on other aspects of the criminal investigation which are complementary to the work being done for the coroner. Thirdly, the Operation Resolve team has obtained access to the best quality audio visual material and carried out extensive analysis. In doing so, it has drawn on advances in digital imagery and forensic technology not available to previous investigative teams. Fourthly, the investigation has now completed more than 1,000 interviews of witnesses.
The work being done by Operation Resolve is aimed at providing the fullest possible picture of what happened at Hillsborough, both to ensure that the inquest is able to answer the questions that the bereaved families still have, and in support of the criminal investigation. Jon Stoddart has said:
‘If we find there were health and safety breaches or evidence of wilful neglect, we will seek to ensure the appropriate action is taken against those responsible. If we find that, with the benefit of hindsight, there are lessons to be learned, we will endeavour to ensure that they are addressed. And if we find evidence of criminal behaviour, including manslaughter through neglect, we will seek to lay charges and put people and organisations before the courts’.
As I have said, this new phase of work on Hillsborough began with the publication of the independent panel’s report. One particularly important aspect of the way in which the panel approached its work was its consultation with the bereaved families, and I was keen to learn from and build on that dialogue. So I was pleased when Bishop James Jones agreed to act as my adviser on Hillsborough, bringing with him his knowledge and experience from his time as chair of the independent panel.
Operation Resolve and the IPCC have invested significant effort engaging with families, including offering the opportunity for families to visit their offices in Warrington. Family forums, proposed by Bishop James Jones and building on work by the IPCC, CPS and Operation Resolve, are now taking place regularly. The forums provide a regular and structured opportunity for bereaved families to have face-to-face discussions with those conducting and advising the investigations, and they provide an important opportunity for the families to probe and ask questions.
Bishop James Jones, in recent conversations with me, has described the families’ position as being ‘encouraged’ but not ‘persuaded’. This is a sentiment I can understand. As we approach the 25th anniversary of the tragedy it is the sentiment which underlies my continuing commitment to do everything I can to ensure that the process of disclosing the truth—started by the panel—is followed by the process of justice.
I commend this Statement to the House”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to and thank the noble Lord for repeating the Statement of the Home Secretary. It is very helpful for your Lordships’ House to be updated on the process and on progress being made. I also welcome the fact that the Minister reiterated the apology. We add our tribute to the families, survivors and all those who have had to campaign for the truth and for justice.
Twenty-five years later, as the new inquests begin, the families will have to relive that day, in granular and sometimes very graphic detail for each of the 96. It is necessary to establish the precise details and the truth but it will be traumatic. What action will be taken across government to ensure that counselling support is made available to the families having to attend the inquests?
I listened to the Statement in the other place and I should like to probe further one issue that was raised. The Minister will be aware of the concern of the families and the campaigners for justice that they were subject to undercover surveillance, not exclusively but including their phone calls being intercepted. The Home Secretary was unable to confirm or deny those fears in the other place. The Minister will recall discussions that we had on covert surveillance during the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill and the need for independent oversight following the experience of my noble friend Lady Lawrence. Given the circumstances, will the Government reconsider whether in this case it would be appropriate, because it is relevant to the inquiry, for any and all information relating to surveillance to be made available, including whether any requests were made to the Home Secretary? I am sorry to press the Minister further on this, but I know that he will understand the depth of feeling on this issue.
The Minister will also understand the anger over so many of the police and witness statements being altered. Presumably, that was to hide the truth so that they could not get the facts of what really happened on that day. It is vital that those who gave witness statements at the time feel able to come forward and verify their statements or take action to put the record straight if their statements were changed. What message or reassurance can the Minister give to those witnesses to encourage them to come forward? To paraphrase the words of the Home Secretary, we need these statements because we need to get to the truth in order to ensure justice.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her comments on this moving and complex issue. I reiterate the sentiments of my right honourable friend the Home Secretary in her response to a number of questions. She made it quite clear that she recognised that one of the traumas of the situation that the families now face was that they would now have to relive the moments of tragedy that they suffered 25 years ago. In terms of positive things that I can say, she reassured the families that additional consultation space will be provided to ensure that families have regular meetings with their legal teams, and further details will be shared with the family teams in the next few days about how that will work. The Government fully recognise that the appropriate support needs to be provided for all those involved in these inquests. The Department of Health and the Ministry of Justice, along with the coroner and his team, will work together to ensure that this is available.
The noble Baroness rightly focused on the anxiety that was expressed in the House of Commons by a number of Members about surveillance and the suspicion that the police had targeted families. The Home Secretary, I know, will reflect on what has been said in the House of Commons. She is well aware of the sentiment on that issue, as indeed is the IPCC, which is very much aware of that aspect of the case. It is, perhaps, another example of people feeling that tragedy has been compounded post the event. I suspect that the IPCC will be interested in following this up.
I was further asked by the noble Baroness about witnesses coming forward. As I mentioned in the Statement, a number have already done so. I will use the opportunity of being here at the Dispatch Box in this House to say to anyone who is listening to our discussions today who has something to say and wants to contribute to this search for the truth to please come forward. They will be given every help and support in doing so.
Lord Soley (Lab)
My Lords, in the Statement by the Home Secretary, reference was made to the abuse of press power. I remember that a number of us said at the time that the press were getting into difficulties because they were doing this sort of journalism. Can the Minister take it back to the Home Secretary that this is yet another reason why the press needs to have Leveson? It might seem out of context but, frankly, this has been going on for 30 or 40 years and Hillsborough was a particularly bad example of an abuse of press power. That is why people want Leveson and why the press should get out of the way and allow it to happen.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I am most happy to take that back to the Home Secretary. I am meeting her this afternoon, in fact, and I will carry that point home. This certainly was not the press’s finest hour but, having said that, I am sure that we all cherish the fact that we have a free press in this country. However, this was a situation where, as the Statement said, the conduct of the press exacerbated a grievous situation.
Baroness Hamwee (LD)
My Lords, I welcome the Statement and the fact that the Home Secretary has chosen to make it in what I might call an unprompted manner: I think the Minister will understand what I mean. He referred to the importance of process. Perhaps I might ask him about the reference group, which I understand has been set up by the CPS, the IPCC and the investigation team to ensure the families’ rights under Article 2 of the European convention. I am sorry that I was not able to give notice to my noble friend of this question. I understand that the reference group is to monitor the progress of the investigation. That seems to raise the question: what powers may it have?
If I am giving time for inspiration by asking a second question, I hope that will be helpful. My second question is with regard to the IPCC. There was concern about the resources available for this substantial piece of work, both in itself and for any knock-on effect on the rest of the IPCC’s activities. Can the Minister tell the House whether the IPCC is as happy as one might reasonably expect it to be with the resources available, both for this investigation and the rest of its work, given the burden that this must be on it?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
This is by far the largest investigation that the IPCC has ever been involved in. Right at the beginning, the Home Secretary wanted to emphasise that this was a priority that needed proper resourcing. I have no doubt that the resources are available to get to the truth of this matter. The challenge panel, which was mentioned in the Written Ministerial Statement on 19 December, is working well. There were a number of helpful discussions over the summer between the investigatory and prosecutorial authorities and the families to establish the best way of ensuring that they are kept up to speed with the various ongoing investigations. These discussions were chaired by Bishop James Jones. It is not so much that the reference group actually has, or even needs, power. The power lies in those bodies which are working together with the reference group. They are the people who actually have the power to pursue the inquiry and, further to that, to effect prosecutions if necessary.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)
My Lords, as one of the very few Members of your Lordships’ House who was present at Hillsborough on 15 April 1989, I congratulate this Government and their predecessor on their determination to pursue the truth of that terrible tragedy. The Home Secretary deserves enormous credit, particularly for engaging with our much missed colleague, the Bishop of Liverpool, who has changed the whole nature of the way in which we are looking at the events on that day, 25 years ago. I was delighted to hear the Minister’s reference to the involvement of the former bishop as the Home Secretary’s adviser and with the family forums.
Does the Minister agree that the police, particularly South Yorkshire Police and West Midlands Police, have a lot of very difficult questions to answer? Was he as astonished as I was to discover that 2,500 police pocket books have only now come to light? How many more pocket books does he think there may be out there that contain vital information? How many police officers have so far declined to co-operate with the IPCC or the bishop’s inquiry?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I was as astounded as I think all noble Lords would have been at the discovery of these pocket books. I have no idea whether there are any other pocket books that have not yet been discovered. The pursuit of truth is clearly such a singular objective that everything must be focused on achieving it, and anybody who has information or pocket books that might be relevant to this inquiry or knows where they are should produce them for the investigations.
I can only add to the tribute paid to the right reverend Prelate the former Bishop of Liverpool, James Jones. What a remarkable man he is. It is odd, in a way, that we were discussing one of his projects—on forestry—immediately before this Statement on Hillsborough. He is a remarkable figure. I shall not say “public servant” because it goes beyond that. The fact that he has such integrity and is trusted in the way that he is is a remarkable tribute to him and to the work he has done.
Lord Wills (Lab)
My Lords, as one of the Ministers involved in setting up the Hillsborough panel in the first place, I, too, pay tribute to the outstandingly conscientious and diligent way that this Government are making progress on that panel’s reports. I also add my tribute to the former right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool and his panel for the outstanding work that they have done. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the stoicism, dignity and persistence of the bereaved families. Without that, none of the progress that is now being made would have been possible.
I echo what my noble friend on the Front Bench said about the need to provide continuing support for the families. This goes beyond the legal representation that they are currently receiving and beyond the inquest. I would be grateful if the Minister will confirm that as this process unfolds over a period, which could be many months, if not years, they will receive all the support they need for as long as it takes. Finally, and I understand that there are limits to what the Minister can say now, but once all these investigations have been completed, will the Government consider the wider implications for public policy of what has happened in this terrible event?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wills, for his involvement in the early stages of setting up the panel. It was a great decision. It led to the uncovering of the truth to the extent that we have now been able to move the panel’s report on to active investigations and the renewed inquest. It all started with that, and he should take praise for that.
Public life and politics in general have learnt a lot from this incident, which happened a generation ago. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, was a younger man when he was at the game. It was a long time ago, and we have learnt to do things differently. The noble Lord asks what the Government would learn; I think that all those in public life have learnt something from this Hillsborough engagement.
I have learnt something, because, as some noble Lords will know, the Home Secretary asked me to meet the families. It was a really moving encounter. Stoicism is the word—they were noble, in fact, in how they were handling their sadness and grief. We all recognise that they will need continuing support, and not only with practical things such as legal representation, although that helps to empower people. There is also the emotional support and the sense that we can all give them that we understand the sadness that they have had to suffer—and the inquests that they will have to go through will be quite traumatic for them.
Lord Wood of Anfield (Lab)
My Lords, it is fair to say that MPs, journalists and campaigners have struggled to obtain information from different agencies under the Freedom of Information Act, most noticeably from the police, IPCC and Operation Resolve teams. In some cases, information has been withheld on the grounds that it may prejudice potential prosecutions—and, of course, we all understand that. However, there are two other grounds that should cause us concern, and I want to ask the Minister about his reaction to that.
First, in some cases information is withheld on the grounds that the IPCC has deemed that publication would be detrimental to future co-operation between itself and organisations that it is either investigating or collaborating with. Secondly, in many cases in which the police are involved, FOI requests remain simply unanswered and ignored, in some cases for periods stretching over 12 months. Does the Minister share my concern about this? Would he agree that one way forward would be to ask the IPCC and Operation Resolve teams to commit to name a date by which they plan to publish all the evidence that they have and ensure that all the documentation is digitalised and placed on the IPCC’s Hillsborough investigation website?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My own commitment to freedom of information is that I am the Minister responsible for freedom of information within the Home Office, and I take that role very seriously. Noble Lords will understand that there are sometimes genuine conflicts between a wish to be transparent and open and to put material in the public domain and the efficient achievement of justice, with the impartiality of evidence. Premature revelation of facts that perhaps should not be revealed might pose threats to the admissibility of evidence.
I understand totally where the noble Lord is coming from and acknowledge the importance of the Freedom of Information Act, which I would like to believe has enhanced public life. However, there are occasions when perhaps it is unwise to challenge decisions made in good faith. I will certainly report the matter back to the Home Secretary. As I say, I am meeting her this afternoon, and I shall report back on the question that the noble Lord asked.
Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)
I congratulate the Government and express my sympathy to the families involved. There is one other wider point of importance that comes out of this, which the Minister touched on. I wonder whether he would agree with me that even since Hillsborough and with the lessons that we have learnt, many people distrust bodies investigating themselves and other bodies investigating bodies that are only remotely removed from them. If one marvellous thing could come out of this it would be that, by pursuing the truth in the way the Minister has mentioned, the public might begin to get greater confidence in investigations into wrongdoing.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, makes a good point on this area of public confidence in the police, in particular. This is a policy area within the Home Office currently which we are taking very seriously. Noble Lords will know that the College of Policing has been set up. A code of ethics is part and parcel of its immediate mission statement. It is very much in the interests of a country that is dependent upon policing by consent that that consent can be given in confidence that the police are acting genuinely in the interests of the public, not of themselves. I could not agree more with what the noble Lord said.
Lord McNally (LD)
My Lords, the tributes to Bishop James Jones are well deserved but the statement by him rather ties in with what my noble friend has just said—that the bereaved families are “encouraged” but not “persuaded”. That is an indication of how far we have to go in winning not only their confidence but that of the general public in our public authorities and the capacity to investigate them when things go wrong. I seek just one clarification. My noble friend said that the inquest will start on 31 March. This ties in with the question about information from other bodies. How do you prevent cross-pollution from one investigation to another if the inquest is being held in public? Will remarks made there impact on the Stoddart inquiry or revelations from the IPCC? Will they be fed into the inquest? How are these three parallel inquiries to be co-ordinated or kept separate?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
You can rely on your noble friends, particularly your former colleague as the Minister of Justice, to tackle you on this subject. I am not a lawyer but I assume that the Queen’s court—the coroner’s court—has the power to seek all evidence. Its needs are the most important aspect of the inquiry while the coroner’s investigations continue. Clearly, information will be made available to the coroner’s court or discovered through the coroner’s inquiry that will inform investigations by other bodies. I would hope that that would be the case because the whole point of the inquest is to establish the truth about those 96 deaths, as well as to help clear the obfuscation that has long surrounded this issue.
Lord Snape (Lab)
My Lords, will the Minister accept from me, as a former chairman of a—sadly—former Football League club, that the attitude of the police a quarter of a century ago towards the Liverpool supporters was coloured at least partly by the fact that there was a strong belief then that those who watched football were somehow less worthy of the sort of policing that most members of the public would accept—that football supporters were there to be marched and corralled and generally to be poorly treated by police officers from a senior level downwards? Will he also accept from me that, regrettably, these days that sort of attitude persists in certain aspects of policing towards those wishing to do no more than go and watch a football match?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
Amazingly enough, as somebody who has an interesting life, I have relatively limited experience of attending first-class football matches. However, in fact I went to see Arsenal play Wigan in the final home game of last season. I have to say that I found it a really delightful experience and I saw none of the things that the noble Lord, Lord Snape, has suggested. The policing was discreet and the stewards were in place but working with people rather than against them, and I think that that characterises it—it certainly characterises other sporting events that I have been to. However, I shall have to ask the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, what it was like to go to a football match 25 years ago, and he will be able to tell me of the change there has been in recent years. I am sure he would vouch for the fact that there has been considerable change both in policing and in the way that crowds, who in most cases are now seated in purpose-built stadia, are treated. It is to be hoped that, because of those measures, there will not be a repetition of what happened at Hillsborough.